I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Only 1 Dark Lance sorry

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But thats if you pick a batallion, you could pick a brigade with that rule. Or play with 2-3 patrols in 2k for a cost of 0 CP.

Right. Nobody's saying otherwise. That was the background to the whole discussion: assuming the mix-n-match multiple kabals thing isn't intended, the rule doesn't seem to have much application. You'd almost always be better off taking 3 patrols and keeping your options open. A brigade is limiting in other ways. It'd have to be an extremely particular list where the Realspace Raiders makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

I'm talking about what's written in the preview, you have the rules on how to select which detachment is what and how to assign obsessions...

No, we don't. That's what you're missing. It says: "All Kabal units in a <KABAL> Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession," but what we are missing is the bit that defines what a <KABAL> Detachment is. So we are all working off the assumption that a <KABAL> Detachment is the same thing it is in 8th: a detachment where all the units at from the same <KABAL>. But that wouldn't cover Realspace Raiders, since a Realspace Raiders detachment isn't a <KABAL> Detachment.

For what it's worth, it's actually

All <KABAL> units in a Kabal Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession

And it tells us what a Kabal Detachment is/how it's chosen. By the rules we have available it seems like you could take a Haemonculus, a unit of wracks, and a Talos in a Patrol Detachment, declare it a Kabal Detachment, and get exactly nothing since there are no <KABAL> units.

Trueborn are definitely good. It's just that they can't be armed with enough to really threaten anything significant (unless warriors are seeing a big change in what they can take), so the overall impact on the game is not likely to be all that high. Really reliable hitting doesn't make a huge difference when what you're shooting with is just not that powerful.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Only 1 Dark Lance sorry

1 can be on the boat though.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Except that that's not even close to what you get.

If you're in a Venom then you get 1 Blaster and 1 Blast Pistol.

That's it.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

Rihgu wrote:


For what it's worth, it's actually

All <KABAL> units in a Kabal Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession

And it tells us what a Kabal Detachment is/how it's chosen. By the rules we have available it seems like you could take a Haemonculus, a unit of wracks, and a Talos in a Patrol Detachment, declare it a Kabal Detachment, and get exactly nothing since there are no <KABAL> units.

Where? It says you have to "designate" detachments as a Kabal Detachment etc, but it doesn't say how you actually do that, and what the requirements for it are. That language has to do with it being battle-forged or not; it's saying if you don't have a battle-forged army you can mix and match whatever you want, but if you do, you have to have separate detachments. But it doesn't say how each of those separate detachments become a Kabal Detachment, a Coven Detachment, etc.

But I mean you're right in the sense that if that's defined elsewhere, there could be a definition of the Realspace Raiders detachment elsewhere too that is defined as a detachment where all the Kabal units are from the same <KABAL>, all the Coven from the same <COVEN>, etc.

I guess that's correct? I figured you'd designate the detachment by designating them... similarly to nominating a chapter for <CHAPTER> units from Codex Space Marines.

Besides using designate vs nominate the wording is basically the same with no further instructions on what nominate means.

Yeah, but that's for units, not for detachments. With the effect of the nomination - replacing the <CHAPTER> keyword with the particular chapter - immediately following it.

It would be really weird and stupid if you could designate any detachment as a Kabal Detachment, whether or not it has any Kabal units in it. I mean this is GW, so the fact that it would be incredibly stupid doesn't completely rule it out I suppose...

Rihgu wrote:
I guess that's correct? I figured you'd designate the detachment by designating them... similarly to nominating a chapter for <CHAPTER> units from Codex Space Marines.

Besides using designate vs nominate the wording is basically the same with no further instructions on what nominate means.

True. Basically, I'm just glad I have options. I can have just a normal army list construction, treating one subfaction as a whole faction, I can have 2 for a couple CP, I can have 3 patrols for free, or I can have a mega detachment for free with a couple of extremely minor goodies like my Archon buffing the shooting output of my Talos engines which I'm sure will be CORE, and the ability to take my free relic from any of my 3 subfactions.

The times where I'd want to take a realspace raid are maybe limited to the times I want to go very heavy on one particular faction over another, but they are there. Maybe I want to take 1 unit of kabs (upgraded to trueborns), one unit of wyches, but 4 units of Dark Techno wracks, and I want to stick those Wracks in Poisoned Tongue kabal venoms that I can take because i fill my 3 mandatory heavy slots with 3 ravagers. In a realspace raid detachment, i can do that. if I want the Cult portion of the list to basically just be one unit of wyches chilling in a poisoned tongue venom and then 3 test of skill flyers, I can do that as well.

Or if I just want one unit from black heart to get Vect and I want to do a triple patrol with one patrol being drazar and one bh kabal squad, that is also an option that is open to me.

Something doesnt need to be automatically always better than every other option for it to be nice to have the opportunity to do it. Even assuming souper soup is unlikely to survive a 2-week faq which I do concede, realspace raid provides some interesting and viable options for 2k list construction.

But you'd have to want to go heavy on one faction over the other two, AND want to take stuff from all 3. Otherwise you could just take two patrols of one and one of the other.

Also again RAW you get 2 extra CP for going the patrol route vs the realspace raider route, since all your patrols go to zero CP but you still get the +2CP from your warlord being in one. Though that might be fixed or FAQ'd in the actual rules too.

 Imateria wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

So from what I can tell - we don't know what else master archon gives you or if it's just CP or point cost.

It must give you some kind of bonus other than being able to take a unit of trueborn right?

I felt the article was very hit or miss, somethings were much improved, others were a side grade and some really annoys me.

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon. I hope the Succubus and Haemonculus equivelant is more useful. The Realspace Raid also tells us that the Overlord ability, reroll 1's within 6", is changing to Core only, we all saw that coming.

Trueborn is nice but without giving you access to extra special weapons it doesn't feel that worthwhile.

Raiding Force is a slap in the face. I don't care how many Patrols I can take, they are so limited in the available slots that it's just gimping the army, while the Realspace Raid detachment feels like a trap, you're so heavily prescribed for your HQ and Troops choices that you might as well stick with Patrols, it's there to give you the illusion of choice without actually offering any. And I 100% disagree with the_scotsmans interpretation, there is no way in hell you'll be allowed to take a different Obsession on each unit in the detachment, it doesn't even read that way in the article.

Poisoned Tongue has gained a massive boost, it looks like they wont be the lame duck choice of the Kabal Obsesions anymore. Kind of annoyed that it's there strat that gets shown off though, it's completely unchanged from 8th.

Power From Pain is weird. It looks like they are trying to make it our Doctrine type ability, if so I hope they've at least given us an army wide rule to replace it, being mechanically short changed compared to other armies is not a great look. It also stops us from including Ynnari characters in our lists, which is annoying. As for the table itself, changingthe FnP to an invuln is either going to have no effect on the majority of our units or a large swathe of our army is about to get hit with the nerf bat.

Combat drugs is pure win, this is a great change.

Nice to see that the Djinn blade is a flat 3 damage but it's still only +1S and the Nightmare Doll is functionally unchanged, loosing an ability that nobody used anyway.

I think my negativity is how it really wouldn't have been hard to just give the *whole army* the Realspace Raiders rule, and end this idea of the Drukhari being 3+ factions that are able to ally together.

Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

The advantage of the RSRaid is that you have some freedom in how you play your non HQ slots.

You could have 3 Heavy supports from Kabal and 3 Fast Attack from Coven for example, which you can't do with 3 patrols.

Coupled with the warlord boost it makes it for a niche build, but still nice to have.

I guess I may be reading too deeply into a Warhammer Community Bullet Point box - but going on rules as written, nothing theoretically stops you taking a Battalion of Wych Cult, saying its a Cult Detachment, unlocking an obsession for all Wych Cult units - and then sticking some Ravagers or Talos into the otherwise redundant Heavy Support slots. They'd miss out on an obsession, but it might be worth saving points & CP on another HQ+Detachment.

Which isn't the case right now - or at least not as I understand it. You'd lose obsessions on the lot.

Tyel wrote:
I guess I may be reading too deeply into a Warhammer Community Bullet Point box - but going on rules as written, nothing theoretically stops you taking a Battalion of Wych Cult, saying its a Cult Detachment, unlocking an obsession for all Wych Cult units - and then sticking some Ravagers or Talos into the otherwise redundant Heavy Support slots. They'd miss out on an obsession, but it might be worth saving points & CP on another HQ+Detachment.

Which isn't the case right now - or at least not as I understand it. You'd lose obsessions on the lot.

Yep, could be. Also as of right now Ravagers really don't benefit...at all from any kabal trait.

Assuming most of the kabal traits are unchanged, and night shields are unchanged. Maybe BH gets an update though.

Spoletta wrote:
The advantage of the RSRaid is that you have some freedom in how you play your non HQ slots.

You could have 3 Heavy supports from Kabal and 3 Fast Attack from Coven for example, which you can't do with 3 patrols.

Coupled with the warlord boost it makes it for a niche build, but still nice to have.

There is no fast attack for anything but wyches (lol Drukhari), but yes, the general principle is that you can take 3x something AND take units from all three subfactions, which you can't do with triple patrol.

And even if that's the case, the disadvantage being that you don't get any flexibility with your HQ slots at all and can't take Drazhar (unless you run a brigade I guess, lol), you have to make the Archon the warlord, and you lose 2CP (at least based on what they showed us).

Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

The Drazhar thing is the most absurd one.

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

35 entries listed on GW.com at the time of writing.

- 6 books/cards/ebooks

That leaves us with 29 items, including a Start Collecting which will be replaced by the Combat Patrol, and one dual-kit, though doesn't include either version of Lelith, as neither are currently available. She will increase the plastic count by 1, though.

So, we have 27 kits available at present, increasing to 28 when Lelith is released. I'm relying on the GW description to be accurate here, before anyone says I get something wrong...

Plastic - 17/18* (Drazhar, Incubi, Ravager, Razorwing, Archon, Raider, Voidraven, Talos/Cronos, Wracks, Reavers, Succubus, Haemonculus, Hellions, Scourges, Wyches, Kabalites, Webway Gate (I thought this was a 'Quin thing...), Lelith*)
Finecast - 10 (Sslyth, Mandrakes, Razorwing Flock (1 base for £12, seriously?), Ur-Ghul, Lhamaean, Khymerae, Urien Rakarth, Grotesque, Clawed Fiend, Beastmaster)

So, we find that nowhere near "most" of the units are still Finecast/resin - I count Mandrakes, Grotesques, Court of the Archon (though they may be individual characters now - wonder if they'll get that group-as-one-choice rule that DG got?), and Beastmaster & Packs, along with one special character.

If you're going to whine or rant, please check your facts first.

 Dysartes wrote:
Plastic - 17/18* (Drazhar, Incubi, Ravager, Razorwing, Archon, Raider, Voidraven, Talos/Cronos, Wracks, Reavers, Succubus, Haemonculus, Hellions, Scourges, Wyches, Kabalites, Webway Gate (I thought this was a 'Quin thing...), Lelith*)
Finecast - 10 (Sslyth, Mandrakes, Razorwing Flock (1 base for £12, seriously?), Ur-Ghul, Lhamaean, Khymerae, Urien Rakarth, Grotesque, Clawed Fiend, Beastmaster)

And you CAN get plastic Ur-Ghuls from the Blackstone Fortress set, but they're harder to come by.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

I think (sorry angry DG players) that was due to underestimating how -1 damage works.
Which made little sense to me, because of many games where Wave Serpents were incredibly annoying - but there you go.

I think the issue is that the DG codex works at the 3 MTG levels. Admittedly it might not stay there - arguably its in the process of being solved and the weight of time will probably degrade it - but right now at least I think you have very different "viable" (as against optimal) builds that have interesting mechanical interactions. I.E. its a good Johnny Codex.

Whereas I can fully imagine DE will be better than they are now (and I don't think they are Tau/GSC tier by any stretch). But if its just because everything has been made more efficient for its points (see Kabalites for example), thats not as interesting to me as having a range of mechanics and getting them to click.

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Only thing I can say is that the book made playing Death Guard actually fun. The 8th edition codex was a chore that got a sliver of a lifeline in War of the Spider.

Personally I think Death Guard will be played less because the next codices might actually get the same round of "fun". I mean, I can definitely see myself playing Death Guard less if Drukhari is a super fun codex. That's what has kinda surprised me in the past 3 codices is that they actually feel fun to play and I do hope GW manages to pull a hat trick and do the same for all the upcoming codices.

My codex doesn't need to be top tier, but if it is fun to play I am all for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

In a meta that is heavy on Space Marines Death Guard are there to punish those who obsessively tailor their list towards anti-Space Marine.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.

 Sasori wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.

Yeah PfP is their doctrine equivalent. As far as the preview goes, they are lacking a disgustingly resilient/reanimation protocols/angels of death kind of rule.
Nobody has something equivalent to SM's "super doctrine" as far as I know.

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

IF they keep it similar to Marines upgrades.
Upgrading to master Archon mean 1 or 2 new abilities or upgrades to current ones. (quick example marine apotecaries can heal a fixed 3 heals per wound instead 1d3 and use a stratagem for free per round)

Access to a specific relic and warlord trait beyond the core ones.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

So from what I can tell - we don't know what else master archon gives you or if it's just CP or point cost.

It must give you some kind of bonus other than being able to take a unit of trueborn right?

Marks of Chaos say... nope. Sometimes a GW keyword is... just a keyword. Hanging alone and afraid at the end of datasheet, interacting with nothing.
Though it could be like the SM 'Chapter Command' abilities, and give a bonus rule and access to... stuff. Given how crap archons are, the shown relic and warlord trait are irritating 'options' that feel mandatory unless something else is even more better.


Realspace raid is annoying. Both in the 'one of everything' requirement (for both troops and HQs) and just the messy word salad that's vaguely trying to convey rules adjustments.

dhallnet wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.

Yeah PfP is their doctrine equivalent. As far as the preview goes, they are lacking a disgustingly resilient/reanimation protocols/angels of death kind of rule.
Nobody has something equivalent to SM's "super doctrine" as far as I know.

Yeah, I misspoke. It is equivalent to the doctrine, not the super-doctrine. The point I was trying to make was that Drukhari no longer have anything that applies army-wide no matter what, whether souping or not souping, like every other army in 9th so far gets. Unless they are hiding it from us, which would be pretty bizarre.

Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

 Lord Perversor wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

IF they keep it similar to Marines upgrades.
Upgrading to master Archon mean 1 or 2 new abilities or upgrades to current ones. (quick example marine apotecaries can heal a fixed 3 heals per wound instead 1d3 and use a stratagem for free per round)

Access to a specific relic and warlord trait beyond the core ones.

Oh, that's rather disappointing then.

Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Only thing I can say is that the book made playing Death Guard actually fun. The 8th edition codex was a chore that got a sliver of a lifeline in War of the Spider.

Personally I think Death Guard will be played less because the next codices might actually get the same round of "fun". I mean, I can definitely see myself playing Death Guard less if Drukhari is a super fun codex. That's what has kinda surprised me in the past 3 codices is that they actually feel fun to play and I do hope GW manages to pull a hat trick and do the same for all the upcoming codices.

My codex doesn't need to be top tier, but if it is fun to play I am all for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

In a meta that is heavy on Space Marines Death Guard are there to punish those who obsessively tailor their list towards anti-Space Marine.

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Nah, itll be the same as chapter master/master apoth etc. One ability, one warlord trait and one relic for each one.

Would it be better if it had a list of abilities, given we have all of three hq choices? Yes. Am I expecting that at all? Noo.

I'm also sadly not expecting a list of invisible wargear ala crons. Sadface.

"By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities and a powerful Relic for the taking."

Reading the words, I took "unlocking new abilities" to mean... there'd be some options.

But I can equally see how you'd describe the outlined rule and optional warlord trait as "abilities". Which is probably more likely.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Master Archon lets you attack twice once per game, doesnt it?

That's how I read it. Potentially one of a list of abilities.

I'm really hoping there's a decent list and not just one or two.

Not going to lie, I fully expect its just that once per game fight twice ability, that warlord trait and that relic.

Which makes me wonder what the 'master succubus' gets, because seriously I'd want all those things on the better combat character.

It makes me laugh that an Archon with the once per game fight twice with no conditions and the Djin Blade makes Lelith look utterly terrible as a character duelist (her actual job).

I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

I have to say I'm fairly surprised.. there's actual rules so tahts good.

Looking forward to all the stratagems.

I think they made the detachments needlessly complicated yet again to the point an FAQ will be needed.

Looking forward to seeing what stratagems / traits will be available if any.

You guys think there will be faction traits ?

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

Yeah, but wouldn't that be a bizarre thing not to include in an article titled "We Raided Codex: Drukhari and Found 7 Rules You’ll Want To See"? Wouldn't a new faction-wide rule be the very top of the list?

I mean it's GW so what makes sense isn't always what happens. But you would definitely think a new faction rule would have been front and center if it existed.

yukishiro1 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Instead of getting a doctrine bonus to go on top of an army-wide rule, Drukhari instead got their army-wide rule turned into the doctrine bonus.

They did but we don't know if they didn't get anything else. As far as we know, they could get a a new army wide rule, a special rule for coven/cult/kabal like DAs have with ravenwing/deathwing or nothing at all.

Yeah, but wouldn't that be a bizarre thing not to include in an article titled "We Raided Codex: Drukhari and Found 7 Rules You’ll Want To See"? Wouldn't a new faction-wide rule be the very top of the list?

I mean it's GW so what makes sense isn't always what happens. But you would definitely think a new faction rule would have been front and center if it existed.

Eh as you said GW doesn't always make sense, and on top of that Warhammer Community lies from time to time. We also have another 3 days to go so maybe that is a reason for them to save up on some rule reveals.

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

The wings are great for converting bits...

Man dark eldar threads are almost always so depressing to read these days. I mean I can't blame us which is why I wanted to switch factions to an army gw gives a crap about aside from marines. That said maybe this is just a gw problem but you cant leave because you dont know what the outside is like and change is scary sometimes.

@brutus: Not like scourge weren't already having a hard time being relevant with a suicide anti tank unit that dies in a turn and doesn't do enough to be valuable.

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

If they really do this, it will show beyond doubt whoever makes these books has not two brain cells to rub together as that would make the unit rubbish supreme.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
If they really do this, it will show beyond doubt whoever makes these books has not two brain cells to rub together as that would make the unit rubbish supreme.

That's why this is the most interesting Codex release for me for quite some time.

Do we get a proper weapon list that allows people to arm their squads as they see fit, or do they signal that 9th Edition has completely lost the plot and that the nonsense that began with Death Guard will follow every army going forward (except Marines, obviously, because They Shall Know No Inconvenient Rules, and they mostly escaped it before the madness took hold)?

On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

 Eldarsif wrote:

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

scourges from what i remember have always been one of the best unit in the book, lets hope it remains so, i really love the models and the design

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

AngryAngel80, candidate for best newly coined GWism 2021.


joke aside, the PM entry already pissed me off, i don't even want to imagine chosen, allbeit they are just a candidate for another trueborn rule....
So much fun, like WE only having one terminator berzerker squad....

I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

 InVerno wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

scourges from what i remember have always been one of the best unit in the book, lets hope it remains so, i really love the models and the design

I don't think I have ever heard anyone tell me scourges are one of the best units in the DE book, so hearing this for me is a first.

Scourges are one of those "making an army just for this unit" miniatures at least for me.

Sadly they are such a maverick for dark eldars.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

AngryAngel80, candidate for best newly coined GWism 2021.


joke aside, the PM entry already pissed me off, i don't even want to imagine chosen, allbeit they are just a candidate for another trueborn rule....
So much fun, like WE only having one terminator berzerker squad....

Thank you, thank you, it's an honor just be nominated. I'd like to thank my mind, and fingers without them my post couldn't be given in the same fashion as it was. As well I'd like to thank Dakka Dakka for always believing in me and guiding me to follow my dreams of imagining colorful terms to describe GW design choices.It really is and always will be a team effort, so all my love out there to internet land.

Waaaghbert wrote:

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

Hell, we've got *at least* one other model who already has a fight twice ability. Two if Drazhar keeps his.

Not to mention the face that DE are already well overstocked with melee HQs. What we needed were HQs who could actually bring some utility (like psykers in other armies) or strategic prowess to the field.

But no, Archons are just Warbosses now. And if Shadowfields stay the same they'll even be using technology with Ork-levels of reliability.

 Galas wrote:
Scourges are one of those "making an army just for this unit" miniatures at least for me.

Sadly they are such a maverick for dark eldars.

As with Mandrakes, Scourges are gorgeous models, yet ones which seem completely wasted on a unit that only exists to perform suicide-runs.

As with many units in DE, it's a theme I'd really love to see expanded.

Alas, that might cause a brief reduction in Primaris Lieutenant production, and lord knows nothing can be allowed to interfere with that.

I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

Yep, Scourges have never been a unit that has delivered much except to suicide bomb into a unit. I tried running them with Dark Lances in 8th but they were always outperformed by a Ravager that could actually survive a turn compared to the Scourges.

To be fair, if Scourges could take Dissies they might get my attention, but alas that is not in their kit.

They basically need a survival mechanism to make them worth taking.

Beautiful models though. Beautiful enough that if I end up getting more in a box set I can't really be miffed as I can do conversions and whatnot.

 Argive wrote:
I have to say I'm fairly surprised.. there's actual rules so tahts good.

Looking forward to all the stratagems.

I think they made the detachments needlessly complicated yet again to the point an FAQ will be needed.

Looking forward to seeing what stratagems / traits will be available if any.

You guys think there will be faction traits ?

the strats are the part I'm least hyped for. Mostly, the strats in the marine and necron dex (havent really examined any of the others in detail tbh) have been dialed-back from where strats were in the height of 8th. I'm not expecting anything particularly earth shattering stratwise.

I'll be extremely pleasantly surprised if the master archon/succubus/haemonculus is a whole table of abilities you get to pick one from when you upgrade, that would be amazing and extremely welcome to me. Beyond the convenience of just "being able to bring an HQ along with your mounted army", dark eldar HQs desperately need SOMETHING to inject a little variety. The Harlequins' pivotal roles breathed so much life into them (notwithstanding that the ability to take 2 for 1CP is just busted, and should not have been a thing) and took extremely dull characters like Death Jesters and Shadowseers and made them much, much cooler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crispy78 wrote:
I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

Do other people not drop their scourges onto terrain and use the strat that makes them 2+ armor? Why not?

I always dump scourges in cover and use the strat. It's like people want 2+++ re rolling 1's, and their units can only be wounded on 6's.

Scourges are very nice. I have 3 boxes and I don't even play Dark Eldar (not really anyway - the DE stuff I own I got for adversaries in the 40k RPGs - I couldn't out a legal 40K force together... I don't think).

Plus, "THE BEST OF THE BEST" being suicide troopers that die instantaneously 100% of the time is a time-honored 40k tradition. How many tactical terminator squads have you seen survive after their first turn? Even back in fifth, before GW was forced to change their super unique copyrightable "Star Wars TM Jedi TM Troopers" into the new "Millitario Tesdosteronis" they would still show up on the board and die instantly.

in one of my first 40k matches I have a distinct memory of my friend dropping his guys down, meltagunning an enemy vehicle, and then trying to finish the vehicle off with a leman russ shot which scattered onto them and wiped them out, giving them a lifespan of 'less than one shooting phase.'

Scourge have been amazing for me. They were my most reliable anti tank unit in 7th with Heat Lances or Haywire, dropping in and popping tanks with ease, and have been great anti infantry clearers with Shredders since the 8th ed codex came out.

If they are limited to one of each gun the unit will be functionally killed.

 vipoid wrote:


I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

There are other places this can be represented.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


There are other places this can be represented.

Also, likely a strat that allows the WL to take 2 WL traits, in which case, he could have this one for fighting and pick a strategy-based strat in addition to what he gets for Master Archon.

the_scotsman wrote:
Plus, "THE BEST OF THE BEST" being suicide troopers that die instantaneously 100% of the time is a time-honored 40k tradition. How many tactical terminator squads have you seen survive after their first turn? Even back in fifth, before GW was forced to change their super unique copyrightable "Star Wars TM Jedi TM Troopers" into the new "Millitario Tesdosteronis" they would still show up on the board and die instantly.

Funnily enough, I was thinking of those when I thought of Scourges.

Though, I think one of the differences is that Scourges at least seem like they're supposed to be flying all around the board. Yet I think I could probably count on one hand the number of times they've actually managed to make use of M14".

the_scotsman wrote:

in one of my first 40k matches I have a distinct memory of my friend dropping his guys down, meltagunning an enemy vehicle, and then trying to finish the vehicle off with a leman russ shot which scattered onto them and wiped them out, giving them a lifespan of 'less than one shooting phase.'

Ah, I love moments like that.

Though if we're going by in-game experiences, I've seen Draigo and a squad of terminators have a lifespan of 'less than 1 movement phase', as they misjudged their deep strike and ended up in a wall. Good times.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There are other places this can be represented.

Just as there are other places fighting can be represented.

 Imateria wrote:
Scourge have been amazing for me. They were my most reliable anti tank unit in 7th with Heat Lances or Haywire, dropping in and popping tanks with ease, and have been great anti infantry clearers with Shredders since the 8th ed codex came out.

If they are limited to one of each gun the unit will be functionally killed.

Forge the narrative!

Waaaghbert wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

Exactly. We're not orks. Kabals and covens don't have to be lead by the guy who can swing his sword the fastest. (Although that does make a certain amount of sense for cults.) Instead of making everything damage 2 as a reaction to marines, give us those juicy, esoteric that reflect our unique fluff. Give archons orders or magnificent bastard rules that make them feel clever enough to be in charge. Give splinter weapons special ammo type rules that let them be useful in a wide variety of situations.

I don't know. I'm probably complaining too much. The 'dex looks fine so far. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring instead of a raw stat boost.

Remember in 5th edition when you could deploy webway portals, drag characters away from their units with hellions, insta-gib things gruesome weapons, and give yourself a 4+ FNP as a reward for slaughtering an enemy? Good times. Gooood times.

 harlokin wrote:
I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

I think they were alright pre-8th when vehicles were squishier or pre-codex 8th when infantry killing power wasn't quite yet what it is now. Honestly suicide anti-tank light infantry units really went downhill. Doesn't help they gave em heat lances but magically made it so you can't DS to within half range and since you can't give them obsidian rose due to mercenaries you can't get that half range melta lance shot. God that was a total design failure. I am wondering if heat lance reavers might be ok in the future but i'm not holding my breath too hard. I suppose we'll find out when we have the codex in our hands.

Crispy78 wrote:
I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

In Dark Eldar society being rich and powerful means you can afford to just rez yourself when you die, enabling them to do all of the excessive and death-defying gak scourges get into.

Yeah but didn't it say scourge tend to prefer long distance weapons for some reason? I think it had to do with survivability. I can't remember.

That is the scourge issue, the wings. They have them seemingly for a reason but that reason is at odds for them to use some of their weapons. This could be easily fixed in part by saying " They can move and shoot heavies normally " or the like. Then have some sort of bonus for the wings, say it improves their cover saves because they float or flit to avoid the incoming fire better, maybe they just flat ignore negatives to shoot at units because of " Hawk like vision ".

Really they could come up with better stuff for them they just never do, they live in what I call the OgrynZone. Where a unit just languishes book after book being a pretty meh unit over all and seemingly never gets a look at time after time. I wonder if it would really put them out to look at a codex and try and make every unit viable or if they just love trap units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

There are other places this can be represented.

I feel like master archon is in response to the complaints that the HQs from the "selfish duellists" faction can't ever seem to do duels. GW's just like "here you go, he fights twice now, use him to kill that space marine captain."

 harlokin wrote:
I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

They have had their moments. As a cheap haywire unit they were a staple in 8th edd competitive DE. Not getting kabal traits REALLY hurts them. ESP now with the poisoned tongue getting such a good poison buff.

They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Edit: For the record I am referring to Scourges.

 Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

Salty speculation. Sky is falling. etc etc.

I haven't seen anything that confirms this.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

Salty speculation. Sky is falling. etc etc.

I haven't seen anything that confirms this.

I think Kurt is confusing Trueborn and Scourge.

I think Kurt got confused and thought we were talking about Trueborns, which do keep the same datasheet as kabalites as far as we know.

Even if they keep the datasheet, that doesn't necessarily mean they have the same options. I remember in 7th, I think? That Trueborn and Kabalites shared a datasheet and it was a complicated, unnecessary mess.

Could easily be "if this unit is a TRUEBORN unit, it may replace 4 weapons with [list]".

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I think Kurt got confused and thought we were talking about Trueborns, which do keep the same datasheet as kabalites as far as we know.

That is most likely true.

Rihgu wrote:
Even if they keep the datasheet, that doesn't necessarily mean they have the same options. I remember in 7th, I think? That Trueborn and Kabalites shared a datasheet and it was a complicated, unnecessary mess.

Could easily be "if this unit is a TRUEBORN unit, it may replace 4 weapons with [list]".

Whilst true, we have no real reason to believe they'll do something as cool as let you take extra special weapons.

Well, other than the fact that they did last ed, and every ed ever and they haven't announced they're changing it.

Like I'd say there's far more "evidence" that it won't change than there is that it will.

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, other than the fact that they did last ed, and every ed ever and they haven't announced they're changing it.

Like I'd say there's far more "evidence" that it won't change than there is that it will.

Are we talking about trueborn or scourges here? Because all other "unit upgrades" in the game uses the base datasheet and adds/modifies rules on top.
So far, the Trueborn rule we've seen does not specifically add different weapons options.

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

Yup, and Achons being forced to take Splinter Pistols.

 harlokin wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

Yup, and Achons being forced to take Splinter Pistols.

Doesnt the archon kit also have a blast pistol at least?

haha...nope, guess not! LOL. god I love GW's no model no rules idiocy.

Yeah there is a 0.000% chance trueborns get more weapon options than the base kit. I would say it's a high chance that you will no longer be allowed to do anything you can't build out of the box (i.e. 10 man squad with a pair of blasters).

Weird that you're not allowed to build a 5-man squad with a dark lance, though...that's something I can do out of the box....

It'd be rather frustrating, considering I don't think Devastators are limited to only two of each heavy weapon in their squads like their box comes with.

Ail-Shan wrote:
It'd be rather frustrating, considering I don't think Devastators are limited to only two of each heavy weapon in their squads like their box comes with.

Don't mention the fact that all the general unspoken 'rules' about wargear, subfaction tactics, army purity rules, feel no pain saves, deep strike, etc only seem to partially or not at all apply to one particular army, it makes them very sensitive.

Ail-Shan wrote:
It'd be rather frustrating, considering I don't think Devastators are limited to only two of each heavy weapon in their squads like their box comes with.

After the garbage we got from the Death Guard codex I'm shocked it didn't happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Ail-Shan wrote:
It'd be rather frustrating, considering I don't think Devastators are limited to only two of each heavy weapon in their squads like their box comes with.

Don't mention the fact that all the general unspoken 'rules' about wargear, subfaction tactics, army purity rules, feel no pain saves, deep strike, etc only seem to partially or not at all apply to one particular army, it makes them very sensitive.

Genestealer Cults cry

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, other than the fact that they did last ed, and every ed ever and they haven't announced they're changing it.

Like I'd say there's far more "evidence" that it won't change than there is that it will.

Are we talking about trueborn or scourges here? Because all other "unit upgrades" in the game uses the base datasheet and adds/modifies rules on top.
So far, the Trueborn rule we've seen does not specifically add different weapons options.

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

Talking about scourges. Could be wrong, because I didn't bother digging up old dexes, but I think they've been able to carry 4heavy weapons for as long as they've existed, there's been no hints whatsoever that their load out is changing, and they feature in the Codex release box, which should make a nerf at least somewhat less likely.

As far as I know, the only reason that people have to suspect a load out change is that Plague Marines got one?

PenitentJake wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, other than the fact that they did last ed, and every ed ever and they haven't announced they're changing it.

Like I'd say there's far more "evidence" that it won't change than there is that it will.

Are we talking about trueborn or scourges here? Because all other "unit upgrades" in the game uses the base datasheet and adds/modifies rules on top.
So far, the Trueborn rule we've seen does not specifically add different weapons options.

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

Talking about scourges. Could be wrong, because I didn't bother digging up old dexes, but I think they've been able to carry 4heavy weapons for as long as they've existed, there's been no hints whatsoever that their load out is changing, and they feature in the Codex release box, which should make a nerf at least somewhat less likely.

As far as I know, the only reason that people have to suspect a load out change is that Plague Marines got one?

yeah, its purely speculation based on the PM/BL loadout changes. I'm hoping it was a 1-of thing but i see no reason why GW would do that specifically to DG only.

PM and our Terminators, although weirdly for Terminators they only went half the way there, guns are limited to the box but axes/swords are mix as you want despite the box not coming with enough for say all axes or all swords.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I think Kurt got confused and thought we were talking about Trueborns, which do keep the same datasheet as kabalites as far as we know.

Yep I was thinking of Kabalites/Trueborn, Scourges will definitely still keep their 4 weapons per squad

PenitentJake wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, other than the fact that they did last ed, and every ed ever and they haven't announced they're changing it.

Like I'd say there's far more "evidence" that it won't change than there is that it will.

Are we talking about trueborn or scourges here? Because all other "unit upgrades" in the game uses the base datasheet and adds/modifies rules on top.
So far, the Trueborn rule we've seen does not specifically add different weapons options.

As for scrouge being able to take 4x a non shardcarbine weapon, this is going to be the real test to know if GW's philosphy towards "No model, no rules" just went in turbo mode

Talking about scourges. Could be wrong, because I didn't bother digging up old dexes, but I think they've been able to carry 4heavy weapons for as long as they've existed, there's been no hints whatsoever that their load out is changing, and they feature in the Codex release box, which should make a nerf at least somewhat less likely.

As far as I know, the only reason that people have to suspect a load out change is that Plague Marines got one?

Actually, special weapons were 2 per 5 for Scourge in the 5th ed codex. Thats one codex they definitely didn't do well in.

 Castozor wrote:
PM and our Terminators, although weirdly for Terminators they only went half the way there, guns are limited to the box but axes/swords are mix as you want despite the box not coming with enough for say all axes or all swords.

Daemon prince also was affected - if you want the loadout of the finecast model (spitter/sword), you can no longer take wings.

well trueborn arent a kit and yet we have rules.

No model no rules is fine as long as its a stratagem like relics or traits but not wargear... GW philosophy is do dumb...

 Argive wrote:
well trueborn arent a kit and yet we have rules.

No model no rules is fine as long as its a stratagem like relics or traits but not wargear... GW philosophy is do dumb...

Most likely Trueborn will have the same wargear options as Kabalites, similar to veteran intercessors and Red Butcher terminators, and therefore just use the standard Kabalites kit.

GW's policy on that topic is weird.

Look at sisters. You have an ultra specific datasheet for the canoness, and then the BASIC TROOP unit instead uses loads of options that are not on its sprue.

And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

Retributors only come with 2 of each Heavy Weapon. Sisters of Battle Squad comes with more of the special weapons.

So if this continues I guess SoB will be affected in some ways.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

Yeah, my "bonus blasters" came from the secondary market and plundering my scourges.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

AH thats right Rets has their own, but Doms and Celes don't. Celes are just Trueborn for sisters. I just want the same treatment at least let me have trueborn out of kabals too.....

Catulle wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

Yeah, my "bonus blasters" came from the secondary market and plundering my scourges.

Same for me, but the smart money is on Shredders being the new hotness, apparently.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
And that same sprue is used for many units, rets, doms, celes, but Trueborn can be the same sprue as kabals? seriously?

doesnt that sisters kit come with 4x each of the special weapons so that you can make any of these units? The kabalite sprue only has 1 blaster/shredder I think? (got all mine second hand)

AH thats right Rets has their own, but Doms and Celes don't. Celes are just Trueborn for sisters. I just want the same treatment at least let me have trueborn out of kabals too.....

Technically, from GW's perspective at least, Celestians have their own helmets (with the fleur icons) that distinguish them from battle sisters and dominions. And also somehow that box is 5 Cels AND 5 Doms or 10 battle sisters, rather than 10 of one of the three. No idea if that makes any sense, but that's how they sell it.

Well, I guess all speculation should be settled later today. Should be interesting.

 harlokin wrote:
Same for me, but the smart money is on Shredders being the new hotness, apparently.

Yeah... though given my shredders are at least in part assigned to a unit of bat-winged scourges... let's just say I'm building some (hopefully unfounded) anxiety about having the weapon rug pulled out from under them. The temptation to Chicken Little is at times overwhelming.

A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

copied from reddit

Hooks - Add 3 to the Attacks attribute (holy gak)
Grisly Trophies - (Aura) - Subtract 2 from Ld for enemy units within 3" (huh!).

Edge Artist - No idea what this is...but interesting...

Power from Pain - Suspected...but confirmed now.

Flickerfield - -1 to hit against shooting. 5++ Invulnerable Save against shooting.

Explodes - the usual

Hover (Gravitic?) - Distances are measured from the model, not the base.

Open Topped - The usual, I think. Didn't translate the whole thing but it looks like standard Open Topped wording.

Transports 6

----------------------------------

Notably doesnt have core.

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

Thats a big buff!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

Thats a big buff!

a long overdue one too!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

Thats a big buff!

a long overdue one too!

It's not as if they needed the seating capacity, most of the crazy elfs just dangle over the sides.

I read raiders at 11 as well.

 harlokin wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

Thats a big buff!

a long overdue one too!

It's not as if they needed the seating capacity, most of the crazy elfs just dangle over the sides.

It is just so massive - I literally use to drive a venom with 2 archons in it and 2 slith. Now I can just drop the slith and the additional venom...take more scourge or maybe even upgrade some venom to raiders.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
A few leaks finally starting to come, things are looking are definitely looking better, a bump to transport capacity on Raiders and venoms is much appreciated.

Thats a big buff!

a long overdue one too!

It's not as if they needed the seating capacity, most of the crazy elfs just dangle over the sides.

It is just so massive - I literally use to drive a venom with 2 archons in it and 2 slith. Now I can just drop the slith and the additional venom...take more scourge or maybe even upgrade some venom to raiders.

Same....for a while I was using a Lhamaean as an airbag for my Archon, as she was a bit cheaper than a Sslyth

Incubi actually do pretty well with the new PFP. Advance and charge is a nice touch for them - though they will miss the FNP. I wonder if there will be a way to give them some FNP.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Incubi actually do pretty well with the new PFP. Advance and charge is a nice touch for them - though they will miss the FNP. I wonder if there will be a way to give them some FNP.

Their new Tormentors rule, forcing opponents to fight last, is also very good for them.

 harlokin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Incubi actually do pretty well with the new PFP. Advance and charge is a nice touch for them - though they will miss the FNP. I wonder if there will be a way to give them some FNP.

Their new Tormentors rule, forcing opponents to fight last, is also very good for them.

Wow - that is also really good. Can't wait to get the codex so I can get a good grasp on everything. Looks like they finally made a way to get initiative back into the mix.

 harlokin wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Incubi actually do pretty well with the new PFP. Advance and charge is a nice touch for them - though they will miss the FNP. I wonder if there will be a way to give them some FNP.

Their new Tormentors rule, forcing opponents to fight last, is also very good for them.

Fight last if you beat the LD on a 2d6.

Useful, but nothing really great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, Drazhar is a beast.

Unreliable fight last isn't a very useful ability, it's being able to plan around it that makes it strong.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Unreliable fight last isn't a very useful ability, it's being able to plan around it that makes it strong.

I agree, but its a big improvement on the old rule.... particularly for a fragile (ish) unit that hits like a truck. And if you stick the Incubi in a transport, you can equip Grisly Trophies for a -2 Ld debuff aura, which would make the Tormentors more reliable.

Heat Lances going to S8 and having melta at the full 18" now is pretty strong, shame about them going Heavy though as they may not be as useful on Scourge anymore. Strong choice for Reavers and Talos though.

 Imateria wrote:
Heat Lances going to S8 and having melta at the full 18" now is pretty strong, shame about them going Heavy though as they may not be as useful on Scourge anymore. Strong choice for Reavers and Talos though.

Scourges seem to be the relative losers of the stuff we've seen thus far.

Drukhari have a new army wide rule, but we have no idea what it does.

Looks like -1 AP on 6s to wound.

At least that, no clue if it has more stuff on it.

PfP swapping the FnP for an invuln seems ridiculously redundent now, everything seems to have retained their invulns making the turn 1 bonus functionally worthless.

 Imateria wrote:
PfP swapping the FnP for an invuln seems ridiculously redundent now, everything seems to have retained their invulns making the turn 1 bonus functionally worthless.

im glad its gone simply because it removes mostly irrelevant rolling from the game.


i just noticed that the succubus went to 6 attacks and lost the -1 to hit on the archite glaive (finally!)
the Haemonculus also can heal every turn without requiring a stratagem !!!

 harlokin wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Heat Lances going to S8 and having melta at the full 18" now is pretty strong, shame about them going Heavy though as they may not be as useful on Scourge anymore. Strong choice for Reavers and Talos though.

Scourges seem to be the relative losers of the stuff we've seen thus far.

Auto 3 shots is really nice - but now it is heavy.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
PfP swapping the FnP for an invuln seems ridiculously redundent now, everything seems to have retained their invulns making the turn 1 bonus functionally worthless.

im glad its gone simply because it removes mostly irrelevant rolling from the game.


i just noticed that the succubus went to 6 attacks and lost the -1 to hit on the archite glaive (finally!)
the Haemonculus also can heal every turn without requiring a stratagem !!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
>Black Heart: +1 round for PfP (turn 3 5++ yay), also applies to HIRED BLADES (or BLADES FOR HIRE, whatever) if in a Realspace Raid detachment with a Black Heart Archon, +1 Ld, one reroll to hit per unit per activation
>WT: Twisted Cunning: Roll 1d6 per CP spent on a stratagem for either player, get a CP on a 6
>Relic: Writ of the Living Muse: BH Archon only, reroll 1s to wound aura, affects HIRED BLADES if in a Realspace Raid detachment
>Stratagem: Agents of Vect: 0C, one use only, use AFTER an opponent uses a stratagem, increase that stratagem's CP cost by 1 till the end of the battle


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What now, Dakka?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What now, Dakka?

Well. now we have confirmation that DG got that gakky rule for no reason.
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

Am I understanding this right? It looks like you can get +2 to PfP with a Realspace Archon and relevant units? Don't quite understand it yet.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

What's imbalanced about Plague Marines having 2 Blight Launchers and a Plasma Gun compared to 2 Plasma Guns and 1 Blight Launcher?

Here's a hint: it isn't and that's a garbage take. I know you love defending GW but that's ridiculous.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

except the changes also affected their melee weapons (plague marines)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

Am I understanding this right? It looks like you can get +2 to PfP with a Realspace Archon and relevant units? Don't quite understand it yet.

Ooooh, that would make Realspace Raiding nasty! People were disappointed that you needed to take an HQ and a Troop choice from each of Kabals/ Covens/ Cults... But if doing so allows the entire detachment to pretend it's turn 3 on turn 1?

That feels worth the requirement. This dex is going to be the bomb! I can't wait!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

I don't want to derail the thread with this, but how do the melee restrictions (specifically one axe, and then one more axe if a mace is ALSO taken) play into that scenario? I just don't see how a reasonable person could compare the datasheet to the instructions and interpret it differently.

But yes, its a relief to see that the approach did not continue on the new book. Still arbitrary and frustrating, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

What's imbalanced about Plague Marines having 2 Blight Launchers and a Plasma Gun compared to 2 Plasma Guns and 1 Blight Launcher?

Here's a hint: it isn't and that's a garbage take. I know you love defending GW but that's ridiculous.

5 models for 3 PG as opposed to 10 models for 3 PG. Imagine the AoR with deepstriking min sized obsec PMs that are hard to kill and loaded with PGs. When a Blight Launcher and PG are the same cost which do you take for deepstrike?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slowroll wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread with this, but how do the melee restrictions (specifically one axe, and then one more axe if a mace is ALSO taken) play into that scenario? I just don't see how a reasonable person could compare the datasheet to the instructions and interpret it differently.

But yes, its a relief to see that the approach did not continue on the new book. Still arbitrary and frustrating, though.

I reserve the right to be entirely wrong. I just won't stop pondering potential reasons. They did it. They didn't FAQ it. It sucks for collections ( we all agree ).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm glad that Drukharis arent bound to the same fate but its still mind boggling that they did that to DG.

Or because they didn't want DG to be heavy on shooting and just mishandled the wording.

Am I understanding this right? It looks like you can get +2 to PfP with a Realspace Archon and relevant units? Don't quite understand it yet.

Ooooh, that would make Realspace Raiding nasty! People were disappointed that you needed to take an HQ and a Troop choice from each of Kabals/ Covens/ Cults... But if doing so allows the entire detachment to pretend it's turn 3 on turn 1?

That feels worth the requirement. This dex is going to be the bomb! I can't wait!

Don't quote me on it. I think it is only some models that get +2. Everyone else would be +1. I don't know if something stops it from stacking. Everything is in Spanish so it's all in the air until the videos come out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Ok here's the detail - it's an obsession

Thirst for power:
-Units with this obsession with Power from Pain count the round as being 1 more than it is for the rule's effects:
-If a Realspace Raid detachment has an archon with this obsession all Blade for Hire units with PfP are also treat the round as being +1
-+1 Ld to all miniatures with this obsession
-You can reroll a single hit roll each time a unit with this obsession is chosen to attack

So +2 to everything with a Realspace containing a Thirst for Power Archon it seems like.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big upgrades for Cronos:

You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

Daed, is your sentiment that the upgrades for the cronos are big...sarcastic? It still seems like an absolute meme unit to me. Dreadnought-sized model with 4 S5 AP-1 D1 attacks, and one slightly improved heavy flamer...

Yeah, Cronos can ressurrect CORE models with its ability now if that unit has no wounded dudes, I think it's quite useful.

Talos are CORE too.

the_scotsman wrote:
Daed, is your sentiment that the upgrades for the cronos are big...sarcastic? It still seems like an absolute meme unit to me. Dreadnought-sized model with 4 S5 AP-1 D1 attacks, and one slightly improved heavy flamer...

Maybe? Longer range, procs are all D2 instead of D3, S5 instead of S3, along with what looks to be a new ability and some other new base rule on top of insensible and pfp.

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, Cronos can ressurrect CORE models with its ability now if that unit has no wounded dudes, I think it's quite useful.

Talos are CORE too.

The reason the Apothecary works is because he's a Character. If the Chronos isn't a character he's just a free kill.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally avoided my question with your reply LOL. How about instead of just pondering reasons you actually look at the topic on hand and realize it was GW restricting these particular kits just because they could. There IS NOT a balance justification. Don't pretend there is, nor should you pretend that's why GW does anything.

*shrug* I'm not here to start a fight or anything. If GW just did that, "just because they could" then why didn't they do it again? Why does your reason make more sense than mine?

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

Slayer, we all agree that it was a stupid decision from GW, no need to hyperfocus on this in a thread about druhkaris

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because when has GW been consistent outside being inconsistent? You're pretending they thought out balance when we have several editions that prove you wrong otherwise. Everyone was right to be concerned they'd get the Plague Marine/Blightlord treatment, because Loyalist Marines always get the exceptions.

I'd be inclined to agree in prior editions. They could have just been careless, but they're pretty decent about fixing most things ( of late ). Maybe they'll fix it later. No idea. Anyway I'll concede so we don't have to derail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I gotta say I like the new Vect waaaay more.

Bloodbrides and special Wracks seem awesome. It looks as though none of them cost points, either.

Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

Cronos is 100% still a meme. It's basically even odds that it can kill a Sister of Battle in melee, and it's got no real shot at anything tougher than that. And I almost guarantee they FAQ the Talos rez. But even if they don't, how niche is this? Like everybody has said, it's still a derpy floaty turd that will just be nuked turn 1 before it can make it to combat, it's not fast enough to do that turn 1 even if the DE player gets the first.

I'm not actually complaining about this book as a whole and some of those things that you pointed out are fun, Daed (though you sound like my local redshirt when you start hyping up things as fun that already existed in the 8e codex), and I bet DE will be decent and rewarding to play. But the Cronos is still a piece of crap and will only be marginally worth it if it's cheap as hell, which is disappointing.

ETA: I also think Vect is decidedly a sidegrade. Yes, it'll be very nice against Transhuman. But it was also really helpful to just cancel out the Transhuman usage with oldVect and wipe the Bladeguard squad in one go, for example! And by far that's the best case scenario; most strats aren't used 2-3 times per player turn. Even if you tag a strat that's used every turn and leach 4CP out of your opponent... that's really good, don't get me wrong, possibly game changing, but it's not as emphatic and final as oldVect. Again, I'm a fan of this change because I don't think the "counterspell" rule makes sense in 40k like it does in Magic, but I don't think you can say that nuVect is better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

I believe the problem with the cronos is the fact that is a double build with the Talos. The fluff and the rules are at odds with the model. When I read the fluff, and the rules, I imagine some kind of brainiac-robotic-tentacular monster like the robots of Matrix 3 or something like that. When I see the miniature I see a mutant ginormous homunculus with a ton of muscle and giant tentacles that should snap a man in two with a single hit.

 Galas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Scourges evaded the Death Guard equipement-restriction patoguen. But Wytches became infected by it.

Gross. Anyone got a pic of that?

Spoiler:

I believe the problem with the cronos is the fact that is a double build with the Talos. The fluff and the rules are at odds with the model. When I read the fluff, and the rules, I imagine some kind of brainiac-robotic-tentacular monster like the robots of Matrix 3 or something like that. When I see the miniature I see a mutant ginormous homunculus with a ton of muscle and giant tentacles that should snap a man in two with a single hit.

For those of us that can't read Spanish, can you cover the difference between a unit of 10 and a unit of 20?

Talos and Cronos are supposed to be unique, they are supposed to represent the absolute pinacle of ingenuity of the Haemonculus that created them and their vision for perfection. It's problem is it's rules were written by an idiot, giving it the ability to heal models around it by killing the enemy is cool, giving it no ability to kill enemy models makes it assinine nonsense.

Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

I was pleasantly surprised by the crusade rules they previewed. Those actually have me way more excited about the 'dex than any of the mechanics they previewed.

I have just noticed that here the phantasm grenade launcher is correctly printed. Now it makes much more sense, rolling 2d6 per hit to inflict mortal wounds.

Really annoying you can't take Wych weapons in a squad of 5.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

Weirdly, I always thought a selection of weapons was more fluffy, because of their gladiator origins. Removing choice is obvs bad though.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


I'm not actually complaining about this book as a whole and some of those things that you pointed out are fun, Daed (though you sound like my local redshirt when you start hyping up things as fun that already existed in the 8e codex), and I bet DE will be decent and rewarding to play. But the Cronos is still a piece of crap and will only be marginally worth it if it's cheap as hell, which is disappointing.

ETA: I also think Vect is decidedly a sidegrade. Yes, it'll be very nice against Transhuman. But it was also really helpful to just cancel out the Transhuman usage with oldVect and wipe the Bladeguard squad in one go, for example! And by far that's the best case scenario; most strats aren't used 2-3 times per player turn. Even if you tag a strat that's used every turn and leach 4CP out of your opponent... that's really good, don't get me wrong, possibly game changing, but it's not as emphatic and final as oldVect. Again, I'm a fan of this change because I don't think the "counterspell" rule makes sense in 40k like it does in Magic, but I don't think you can say that nuVect is better.

I'm not making claims about cronos. It just has lots of updates and I'll wait to see the rules I'm English.

I'm just hype about how punchy lelith and drazar are along with boats that really seem to have renewed vigor - especially in melee.

I like vect, because it appears to have the ability to screw with lists geared around a particular dynamic.

 harlokin wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Basically if you have 10-19 Wyches, you can have ONE of each weapon a la Karadorn style. If you have 20, you can have 2 of each weapon.

Well, that's annoying. Though probably not actually that big a deal. Removes some fluff options (you might have a squad that favors hydra gauntlets or whatever for some reason). Makes it a little tougher to keep the enemy within range of at least one shardnet. But the ability to spam a bunch of a single wych weapon wasn't really the bread and butter of wyches. (Well, maybe shardnets.) Probably a bad, dumb move by GW, but also probably not worth losing sleep over.

Weirdly, I always thought a selection of weapons was more fluffy, because of their gladiator origins. Removing choice is obvs bad though.

Sure. I could see it go either way. Some fights, you field one of each weapon to give the crowd variety. Other fights, you build up the theme of a squad. "And for those of you who love seeing blood glistening on hydra crystals, have we got a fight for you...!"

I usually tried not to field one of each weapon in a given squad purely because of the number of dice pools I had to resolve when attacking.

I'm just not a fan of having to split up attacks on a ton of different special weapons, if that's the best build for them.

"Ok, here's the attacks for the leader."
"Alright go ahead."
"And here's the attacks for the two with hydra gauntlets."
"Sure."
"And here's the attacks for the two with shardnets..."
"Okay..."
"And here's the flails."
"..."
"Ok, and finally, the attacks with all the rest of the knives."

Especially when the net difference is... negligible.

Oh well. On the flip side, it does remove the issue of wanting all your squads to have max shardnets and needing to buy or convert double the number of boxes just to get the parts for them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

She does about 3 wounds to MEQ per fight, and only has around a 15% chance of failing to kill one (which would stop her fighting twice).

Which, I'm with you here, Void Dragon. Is not good.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

Apparently this is from a Reddit somewhere:

"There is a Succubus and Haemy equivalent to the Master Archon. Haemy gains an ability to return to life like Saint Celestine, a nasty once-per-battle relic (D3 mortals on 2+, the unit loses Aura abilities and can't benefit from Auras till your next turn) and his Warlord Trait lets him ressurect Wracks, Super-Succubus consolidates at 6' and does not have to finish closer to an enemy models (which is crazy ass balls) brutal Artifact Weapon (+2 S, -4 AP, D2, wounds 6+ ignore invulnerable saves) and a Warlord Trait that allows her to switch out her normal Attacks for 3+number of enemy models 2' around her"



"Lelith has Blade Artists (like all wyches), rerolls hits and wounds against Characters, gets a succubus buff Aura (so basically now named and non-named Characters have an interchangable buff aura, which is awesome), has 4+ inv with -1 to hit when she is hit in CC, sghe consolidates +3' and does not have to consolidate to the nearest enemy and she has No Escape, so enemy units can't escape unless they pass a Ld test.


Drazhar gains Blade Artists (6s to wound gain -1 AP, so he has AP-4 on 6s), he can fight twice EACH FIGHT PHASE. He gets -1 Damage to a minimum of 1 (both shooting and melee), has 4+ inv, has tormentors and allows incubi to reroll 1s to wound.

Urien deals 1 mortal on 6+ to each enemy in Engagment Range at the start of Fight, he ressurects once per battle like Celestine, halves the damage he takes (to a minimum of one), buffs toughness like a normal Haemy, but also buffs Strength and Ld by 1 for covens, so he makes stuff really punchy"

Highlighted the Lelith part for emphasis, but figured I'd leave the other stuff.

Yeah lelith seems dope, her job wont be to kill MEQs but shell be able to cause a lot of disruption by going deep in the enemy army to lock down key pieces

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'm just hype about how punchy lelith

Is there some context I'm missing or are you joking? I can't read Spanish so maybe there's some rule that changes things but as far as I can tell she barely manages a primaris killed per combat.

Fight - kill at least 1 model - consolidate away - wait until end of phase - pile in and fight - consolidate away again. Apparently the "Master" Succubus can do this as well.

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

 Imateria wrote:

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

Fair points. Relic and strat though. Isn't there a +3A WLT, too? Though...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

I prefer the Master Succubus build in this case which is 15pts cheaper than Lelith. Both can have 8 attacks on the charge, both can use the warlord trait for 6's to hit= 3 hits, both will have reroll 1's to wound but Lelith hits at S4, -3, 1D and the Succubus with the relic glaive hits at S5, -3, 2D and 6's to wound ignore invulns and has the same consolidate 6" in any direction ability. If you didn't kill the unit you charged, just consolidate over 1" away from them then use the Cult of Strife fight twice strat to go back in and finish them off. Sure you're using a strat but Lelith has to have the right ability chosen that turn to fight twice as well.

Lelith's not terrible, but for 10-15pts cheaper a Master Succubus does the same thing much better and has a much higher chance of killing characters.

Fair points. Relic and strat though. Isn't there a +3A WLT, too? Though...

Spoiler:

I think thats the Warlord trait I referenced. It's also Leliths fixed warlord trait so you'd need two Cult of Strife detachments and only 1 of them is going to get it.

 Imateria wrote:

I think thats the Warlord trait I referenced. It's also Leliths fixed warlord trait so you'd need two Cult of Strife detachments and only 1 of them is going to get it.

Ahh gotcha.

Am I right in thinking that DE characters no longer buff themselves with their own auras?

In which case the Archon's aura affects, what, all of 2 units in the entire book?

Actually in a non-meme way suspect the Cronos may see play. Mainly because of how the meta is so much more assault focused - and in turn, DE are likely to be assault focused.

Its probably not an auto-take, and there remain issues of 6" auras versus advance and charge leaps across the table - but 75/85 points (gun's value is probably debatable) for a reroll 1s to wound on various things seems acceptable.
Sure your opponent can go and kill it - but its a not a trivial clear for that many points.

Admittedly people said this back in 8th - and I feel it was comprehensively disproven. But the game was quite different.

There's a Stratagem where if a unit kills an enemy within 6" of a Cronos, they get to count the turn as 5 for the rest of the game, for the purposes of PfP.

Tyel wrote:
Actually in a non-meme way suspect the Cronos may see play. Mainly because of how the meta is so much more assault focused - and in turn, DE are likely to be assault focused.

Its probably not an auto-take, and there remain issues of 6" auras versus advance and charge leaps across the table - but 75/85 points (gun's value is probably debatable) for a reroll 1s to wound on various things seems acceptable.
Sure your opponent can go and kill it - but its a not a trivial clear for that many points.

Admittedly people said this back in 8th - and I feel it was comprehensively disproven. But the game was quite different.

I feel similarly. It has utility even if it doesn't smoke units. I don't know if that utility is overkill for some of the choices, but it feels playable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
There's a Stratagem where if a unit kills an enemy within 6" of a Cronos, they get to count the turn as 5 for the rest of the game, for the purposes of PfP.

That unit or the cronos?

Tyel wrote:
Actually in a non-meme way suspect the Cronos may see play. Mainly because of how the meta is so much more assault focused - and in turn, DE are likely to be assault focused.

Its probably not an auto-take, and there remain issues of 6" auras versus advance and charge leaps across the table - but 75/85 points (gun's value is probably debatable) for a reroll 1s to wound on various things seems acceptable.
Sure your opponent can go and kill it - but its a not a trivial clear for that many points.

Admittedly people said this back in 8th - and I feel it was comprehensively disproven. But the game was quite different.

It's probably going to see most use supporting Grotesques, but taking more Grotesques is probably just better. The Succubus gives reroll 1's to wound now as well, costs about the same and is going to kill a hell of a lot more in combat so there's no point in using it to back up Wyches.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
There's a Stratagem where if a unit kills an enemy within 6" of a Cronos, they get to count the turn as 5 for the rest of the game, for the purposes of PfP.

That unit or the cronos?

I believe it's the unit, not the Cronos.

2W t4 3a base hellions looking pretty nice

 warmaster21 wrote:
2W t4 3a base hellions looking pretty nice

Good for attracting all those anti-marine weapons, anyway.
Its going to be the big challenge this army is going to face - the meta is already geared up with the guns good at shooting down all the transports and fast attack units.

Voss wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
2W t4 3a base hellions looking pretty nice

Good for attracting all those anti-marine weapons, anyway.
Its going to be the big challenge this army is going to face - the meta is already geared up with the guns good at shooting down all the transports and fast attack units.

true, but at least if you wanted you could make them T5 with combat drugs and still have the T drug open for any other unit you might want them on. going to be a tough call on bs2+ reavers with the new heat lances vs bs3+ with T5

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

Dam straight. Though I am a bit amused-confused that Daedalus seems to be under the impression people were saying the same thing would happen to DEldar. There was a very clear "if" in those sentiments.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

i counter with wych weapons on wyches, 1 of each wych weapon at 10 and 2 of each wych weapon at 20

Wait, people are talking about Lelith fighting, consolidating out, and then piling back in for her second round...
but does her rule let her pile in an extra 3" too? if not, wouldn't she have to consolidate 3" away which means the enemy would be able to just pile in onto her? So she's not avoiding getting hit back at all.

Sorry, I have only seen people reference rules referencing consolidation and not mentioning pile in moves at all.

 warmaster21 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

i counter with wych weapons on wyches, 1 of each wych weapon at 10 and 2 of each wych weapon at 20

Yep. It appears the Troops choice kit-based options that Plague Marines received was also received by to the Troops choice Wyches. I wonder if Kabalite Warriors and Wracks have similar kit-based options?

Rihgu wrote:
Wait, people are talking about Lelith fighting, consolidating out, and then piling back in for her second round...
but does her rule let her pile in an extra 3" too? if not, wouldn't she have to consolidate 3" away which means the enemy would be able to just pile in onto her? So she's not avoiding getting hit back at all.

Sorry, I have only seen people reference rules referencing consolidation and not mentioning pile in moves at all.

She gets an extra 3" on her consolidate move and she doesn't have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit either so the reason she potentially can't be hit back is because units can only be selected to fight and pile in if they start within Engagement range of an enemy unit or they charged this turn, so if Lelith charges she only has to consolidate out just over 1" away from the unit in order to prevent the unit she just fought from piling in and attacking her back.

Then she can pile back in on her second round of attacks and again consolidate out of combat, meaning she can't be attacked back if you don't want her to be on the turn she charges as long she kills 1 model the first time she attacks.

This also means that she can consolidate 12" away from the unit she just fought if she wants to if she kills one model.

She gets an extra 3" on her consolidate move and she doesn't have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit either so the reason she potentially can't be hit back is because units can only be selected to fight and pile in if they start within Engagement range of an enemy unit or they charged this turn, so if Lelith charges she only has to consolidate out just over 1" away from the unit in order to prevent the unit she just fought from piling in and attacking her back.

Ohh, I missed that little nuance that they needed to be in engagement range. I think I'm too used to Age of Sigmar where if you're in pile in range, you're in engagement range.

 warmaster21 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

i counter with wych weapons on wyches, 1 of each wych weapon at 10 and 2 of each wych weapon at 20

Ugh.

So they let scourges take all they want but wyches ? No that is just a step too far, what mad man would ever buy 2!! boxes of wyches, truly only the most clever of player. I guess we can understand to buy multiple boxes of scourges, because they put them in every grouping for DE models ever from now till the end of time. We just can't wrap our pea brains on buying more than one box of troops so we can have the same weapon loadouts in the same squad.

Wargear butchery, or the nurgle effect, I guess a nurgling ate our brain and we just can't figure out to buy more than one troop box at a time.

I'm starting to think that GW is aiming these changes at troops.

Like, it is fine for them if you can't build a specialized unit the way you want right out of the box, but they want troops to be straightforward.

Just an hypotesis.

By the way, I posted the stratagems in the N&R thread.

Drukhari are looking like Necrons. Nothing that really screams broken, but solid all around.

If our Codex happens to be as the Necrons one, for me it's a win situation.

I'm really happy for the leaks thus far.

If you couldn't get it, I post the Cult of Strife extra rules from the book of Rust:


Warlord traits:

gain one additional attack for every attack that didnt get to the inflicted damage stage

reroll wound rolls

-1 to hit and wound rolls

Relics:

relic agoniser: ap-3, d1, poisoned (4+), select one enemy unit within engagement range, that unit can’t fall back (no vehicles/monsters)

garland of spite: select one enemy model, halve the attacks characteristic of that model until end of fight phase. Additionally autohits that model.

relic glaive: s+2, ap-5, d2 - gain +1 to wound against units with a leadership of 8 or more. Suffer 1 mortal wound if you didnt target any models with leadership 8+

dark lotus toxin: +1 to S and D characteristics of all weapons of this model

Stratagems:

2/3cp reroll wounds for cult of strife unit (3cp if 11+ models)

dance of death 1cp - use in movement/charge phase. models can move horizontally through terrain or other models for movement, advance, fall back and charging until end of turn

invigorated by evisceration 1cp - use this when a cult of strife unit destroys an enemy unit. That unit gains a 4+ invuln until start of your next turn.

Blade well placed 2cp - additional -1AP until end of fight phase

Deadly Exemplar 1cp - when succubus unit destroys character/monster unit, brides of death ability becomes board wide reroll 1’s to hit

Flawless approach 1cp - enemy units cannot fire overwatch or set to defend against this unit

Pick them apart 2cp - fall back shoot and charge.

hekatrix of the crucible 1cp - basically give a hekatrix one of several relics!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Though I am a bit amused-confused that Daedalus seems to be under the impression people were saying the same thing would happen to DEldar. There was a very clear "if" in those sentiments.

Yeah, that confused me to. It's like he's going "Ha! See? It wasn't that?", like we wanted it to be that way. The fact that it isn't is good.

Eh there were plenty of people who were anticipating it with glee.

So for me there are 2 really important special rules that drazhar has that suggest phoenix lords will finally be better represented.

Eternal warrior: 4++
Ancient warrior: -1 to damage min 1

If the phoenix lords have these they'll finally be closer to what they should be.

I'm also hoping that the base profile drazhar has will be theirs as well

Are the scourges GW just emailed me about new?

Goonhammer has a review up and is very positive about the book.

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-drukhari-9th-edition-the-goonhammer-review/?fbclid=IwAR32jSKCr-60kKz-Pe9_P15j_EcKYKSl7E7OurhUA-wiF5RXefTMsglpqhg



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
Are the scourges GW just emailed me about new?

No.

 Hellebore wrote:
So for me there are 2 really important special rules that drazhar has that suggest phoenix lords will finally be better represented.

Eternal warrior: 4++
Ancient warrior: -1 to damage min 1

If the phoenix lords have these they'll finally be closer to what they should be.

I'm also hoping that the base profile drazhar has will be theirs as well

As long as the Phoenix Lords get new models.
I might have a reason to take them,

Spoletta wrote:
I'm starting to think that GW is aiming these changes at troops.

Like, it is fine for them if you can't build a specialized unit the way you want right out of the box, but they want troops to be straightforward.

Just an hypotesis.

By the way, I posted the stratagems in the N&R thread.

Drukhari are looking like Necrons. Nothing that really screams broken, but solid all around.

Blightlord Termies got hit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Denegaar wrote:

gain one additional attack for every attack that didnt get to the inflicted damage stage

That's pretty friggin neat


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Though I am a bit amused-confused that Daedalus seems to be under the impression people were saying the same thing would happen to DEldar. There was a very clear "if" in those sentiments.

Yeah, that confused me to. It's like he's going "Ha! See? It wasn't that?", like we wanted it to be that way. The fact that it isn't is good.

People said a lot of thing wouldn't happen like 6/11 transports, bloodbrides, trueborn, etc. It's easier to be pessimistic and pleasantly surprised, I guess? Which is a valid stance to have, because GW hasn't been consistent in the past, but I felt like they've been building consistency through 8th despite several stumbles.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Love these, too. So many boats.

Rapid Acceleration 1 CP

Select a transport wholly within of battlefield edge. End of movement phase. Remove it and place it in strategic reserve.

Assassin's Debarkation 1 CP

Reinforcement step. choose 1 transport. Units inside can disembark, must must remain 9" away from enemies

Aethersails 1CP

Raider or Ravager advances +8 inches instead of rolling

Shock Prow 1 CP

Select a Shock Prow Model. After finishing a charge move, deal d3 mortals to a vehicle on a 2+. OR if non vehicle, roll a d6 for each model within engagement range, dealing a mortal to the unit when rolling equal or above their toughness

Potent MetalToxin 2CP

Shooting or fight phase. Poisoned weapons affect vehicles, but not titanic units.

Well, with an extremely thorough read through the drukhari codex, I am...honestly really impressed. The codex appears to have many different interesting builds and answers to various opponents. The custom and core traits are well balanced barring a few duds, and the unit roster is extremely tight internally, theres almost nothing that seems useless in EVERY setup.

Beasts are maybe at the weakest theyve ever been, save for maybe clawed fiends as a super cheap scorer, and GW has neatly executed another "flyer shuffle" where they make one just straight up better than the other, but it seems like there is legitimately just a ton you can do with the codex.

I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

She is very tricksy, and is certainly better than she appeared at first glance. The real question is whether she is better that the other available (and excellent) Succubus options, of which there are surprisingly many.

 harlokin wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

She is very tricksy, and is certainly better than she appeared at first glance. The real question is whether she is better that the other available (and excellent) Succubus options, of which there are surprisingly many.

Lelith might see use, but not until after the other Master Succubus slots are used up. I'd probably just proxy her as a regular Succubus unless I was after multiple detachments of wyches.

 alextroy wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What now, Dakka?

An immediate errata that fixes the Death Guard Marine and Terminator entries, that's what.

i counter with wych weapons on wyches, 1 of each wych weapon at 10 and 2 of each wych weapon at 20

Yep. It appears the Troops choice kit-based options that Plague Marines received was also received by to the Troops choice Wyches. I wonder if Kabalite Warriors and Wracks have similar kit-based options?

Nope Wracks and Kabals stayed the same compare to 8th.

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

Not really worth it. She's not terrible per se, though putting her against characters seems to be a waste of time, it's just that the standard Succubus is 30pts cheaper and vastly more dangerous.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
I'm honestly very happy for dark eldar players, most things I've heard and seen from the new codex seem really cool and useable.

I'm curious though. What's the final verdict on the new lelith hesperax? Is she worth fielding against anything other than GEQ?

She is very tricksy, and is certainly better than she appeared at first glance. The real question is whether she is better that the other available (and excellent) Succubus options, of which there are surprisingly many.

Lelith might see use, but not until after the other Master Succubus slots are used up. I'd probably just proxy her as a regular Succubus unless I was after multiple detachments of wyches.

Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

Yeah, I mean, 99% of the time when you have one of those "The Best Of The Best X HQ" special character units, you can usually find some combo of trait and relic to give the generic version of them to make them more effective.

The named HQs you see people actually using are the ones that don't have a generic customizable version, that bring something totally unique and wacky to the table like your Ghazghkulls your Nightbringers your Silent Kings. In the dark eldar's case that's Drazar. There's no generic Incubi HQ you can take in every subfaction (sadly), he does his own unique distinct thing, people will use him.

How often do you see competitive players taking Cato sicarius instead of a captain, Shrike instead of a chapter master, Tor Garadon or whatever the yellow fattie character was named instead of a captain, Eldrad instead of a Farseer, etc etc etc.

You saw Eldradnow and then; the only reason you didn't see him every game was he didn't have a jetbike and his craftworld often wasn't the best choice. But again to reinforce your point that's because there is no way to buff a Farseer's psychic capabilities.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I mean, 99% of the time when you have one of those "The Best Of The Best X HQ" special character units, you can usually find some combo of trait and relic to give the generic version of them to make them more effective.

The named HQs you see people actually using are the ones that don't have a generic customizable version, that bring something totally unique and wacky to the table like your Ghazghkulls your Nightbringers your Silent Kings. In the dark eldar's case that's Drazar. There's no generic Incubi HQ you can take in every subfaction (sadly), he does his own unique distinct thing, people will use him.

How often do you see competitive players taking Cato sicarius instead of a captain, Shrike instead of a chapter master, Tor Garadon or whatever the yellow fattie character was named instead of a captain, Eldrad instead of a Farseer, etc etc etc.

Anyone running Ulthwe is taking Eldrad, he's better than a normal Farseer. Craftworlds problem is that their named craftworld traits are all rubbish so everyones using custom triats as the only way to stay remotely competitive.


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yukishiro1 wrote:
You saw Eldradnow and then; the only reason you didn't see him every game was he didn't have a jetbike and his craftworld often wasn't the best choice. But again to reinforce your point that's because there is no way to buff a Farseer's psychic capabilities.

There is but it's from strats and Psychic powers so they work just as well on Eldrad as any other Farseer.

the_scotsman's not exactly wrong though, named characters usually aren't as good as a tooled up generic version, the difference doesn't tend to be this extreme though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

She won't be walking out of combat so she'll be quite likely to die if she doesn't finish off the target.

Is the difference actually that extreme?

Lelith is 90pts + a warlord trait if you want to field the 'optimal version' of her.

A tooled up master succubus is 75pts+a warlord trait+a relic.

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile


Looking at a selection of various succubi I've been doodling around with...

Cursed Blade succubus, Razorflail, Quicksilver Fighter, Hypex, Traitor's Embrace.

8.32 GEQ,
2.0 MEQ,
very small TEQ
3.75 vs Marine Captain

(also explodes when she dies)

Red Grief succubus, Blood Glaive, Precision Blows, Hypex

6.68 GEQ
4.89 MEQ
3.25 TEQ
8.22 vs marine captain (the big strength of all the 'get damage 3 and use precision blows' builds is their capability to murderize invuln protected characters)

Strife Succubus, Shardnet+Impaler, Grave Lotus Toxin, Hypex, Precision Blows

7.63 GEQ
3.81 MEQ
2.69 TEQ
9.40 vs Marine Captain

The Captain Murderingest build I've found so far!

Test of Skill/6s hit twice custom cult, Master Succubus relic glaive, Quicksilver Fighter, Hypex

6.35 GEQ
6.35 MEQ (this one is the MEQ killing one)
3.1 TEQ
6.34 Marine Captain
Bonus round 9.53 against all non-invuln'd vehicles/monsters, thanks Test of Skill!

So yeah, Lelith is the best in the biz at shredding chaff, a middle of the road meq-muncher and does require 2 rounds or a bit of pre-existing damage to take down a marine captain, but she does always strike first and has No Escape so generally speaking she manages to whack the captain the following round before he gets to swing.

She's a perfectly respectable named character, she's just not the unmitigated insanity that is Drazar.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Regular succubus also looks a great deal better!

She won't be walking out of combat so she'll be quite likely to die if she doesn't finish off the target.

I've got a lot of confidence that she will murder that target though. Plus she should have some support around her. Significantly low points investment too. This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

Bad paint job. Once the community gets a hold of her she'll look better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is also pretty relevant - new Lilith model is fugly.

Bad paint job. Once the community gets a hold of her she'll look better.

I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

the_scotsman wrote:

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile

The math seems wrong? I agree she can have a place, but like you said with other named characters - they don't always take first place. That's probably a good thing since it can ( but doesn't always ) promote more variety.

This is what I get for 1 round vs Captain
((7 * .194) + (7 * .998)) = 8.344 * .75 * .5 = 3.1

Versus normal stuff she should score 7 hits, so 4.7 GEQ or 9.3 in total.

If you're a total madlad and there's a marine nearby you can allocate 4 attacks to that unit and if the model dies you should be able to score 5 on captain with the remainder and a second fight phase. Even easier if they happen to have a wounded model, which is feasible if you bring support.




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 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:




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 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




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 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

Dai wrote:
It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

Yeah he absolutely should. Really all farseers should. They should basically all have LOC level magic even up to magnus level for an eldar like eldrad.


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 Galas wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Lelith kills 12.5 GEQ,
4.2 MEQ
2.1 TEQ
and assuming she gets only one round of combat, 4.0 unsaved wounds vs. a 4++ marine captain profile

The math seems wrong? I agree she can have a place, but like you said with other named characters - they don't always take first place. That's probably a good thing since it can ( but doesn't always ) promote more variety.

This is what I get for 1 round vs Captain
((7 * .194) + (7 * .998)) = 8.344 * .75 * .5 = 3.1

Versus normal stuff she should score 7 hits, so 4.7 GEQ or 9.3 in total.

If you're a total madlad and there's a marine nearby you can allocate 4 attacks to that unit and if the model dies you should be able to score 5 on captain with the remainder and a second fight phase. Even easier if they happen to have a wounded model, which is feasible if you bring support.




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 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

Blood Dancer and the ability on her knives means each hit roll of a 6 is 4 hits.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

I mean elves aren't necessarily from Kamino.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dai wrote:
It's probably because many people hated it when unique characters were out and out better than the generic versions. Eldrad should basically be Teclis in space. He should destroy.

Yeah he absolutely should. Really all farseers should. They should basically all have LOC level magic even up to magnus level for an eldar like eldrad.


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 Galas wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm sure this has been discussed a lot but I think it's more than that. She looks like a female version of Heman (a roided out human). She is supposed to be thin and graceful to the extreme on the already extreme level due to being an eldar.

Yea they just over-highlighted the model. Based on the absolute magic people have done on other models I'm pretty confident in any case.

I suspect the same thing. In any case the generic plastic Succubus is a very nice model and easily converted.

That bust - those thighs...Looks human to me. This should be the most elfy of elves.

Eldar have basically never been modeled as 'super slim super skinny' except compared to like. space marines. They've always had plenty of musculature and abs (or armor with abs modeled on).

Every time people bitch and moan about how 'mannish' a GW female sculpt is, they're just bitching and moaning about the exact same heroic scaling GW has literally always done on every one of their models.

The new lelith matches just fine with the existing Wych and Succubus sculpts.

This gak is unbelievably played out at this point, and predictable as all hell. People will always take the easy opportunity to whine about how the new eschers look fat but won't say a peep about the fact that Orlocks are all built like dump trucks....until of course GW makes a female orlock compatible with the same bits and then it's suddenly a crime against humanity.