Emicrania wrote: Guys what´s the consensus on the Squigosaur Warboss size? A lot of TO are allowing it and it feels too good of a choice to skip.
Any idea on height and base size? I was gonna convert some 3d file + AoS warbosses to fit it
All I know is that he uses the same base size as Ghazzy, hard to tell at the moment though based purely on pictures. It seems roughly Ghazzy height, if not a little higher if we're including arm sticking that choppa in the air.
It comes soon. I 'm waiting to finish the conversion until it officialy comes out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Competitive Innovation is out and Orks almost everywhere with 2 main builds - Freebootas with Deathskulls or BloodAxe buggy spam.
And some experiments, that was obviously also succesfull, incl goffs and sneakbites?
Tomsug wrote: It comes soon. I 'm waiting to finish the conversion until it officialy comes out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Competitive Innovation is out and Orks almost everywhere with 2 main builds - Freebootas with Deathskulls or BloodAxe buggy spam.
And some experiments, that was obviously also succesfull, incl goffs and sneakbites?
However, the thesis about Kommandos hiding in the Kannonwagons is super weird…
Yeah, gotta agree there, it goes against the whole point of Kommandos IMO, either you use it for early game objective grabbing and squatting in ruins, or you use them as an alpha strike unit. I don't see how they would be in a situation to go inside the kannonwagons.
So how are we vibing with the idea of a squig cav list for snakebites?
I remember at the early days of the codex they were creating quite the hype, and the list or two I tried out did rather well too.
But when it comes to tourney lists we're seeing mostly freeboota buggie lists. Not that i'm complaining those are fun as heck and have less models than a usual ork list.
Also, on the killsaw debate. I'm in the 2+ attacks camp. Allocate an attack to each saw and the rule procs each time. Just gotta have 2 saws to proc at all. If they didn't want them to act like chainswords they would have kept the old wording.
Cav lists are viable… usually we see a mix of goff and snakebite (mainly for mozgrod).
The freebooter buggy/Dakkajet list is our strongest competitive list..
With heavy bloodaxe buggy spam being the current flavor of the month that I don’t think will hold once people adjust.
But freebooter buggy/Dakkajet spam is here to stay until squigbuggies and scrapjet get a price hike/nerf… hopefully dakkajets don’t get nerfed as I don’t think they are great outside of freebooter lists.
My main concern is if buggies get nerfed orks don’t really have a balanced codex to fall back on. People are spamming our strong units becuase the other units just aren’t that great.
But it’s clear squigbuggies, scrapjets, kommandos, stormboys, beastboss on squig, and warboss on bike are literally Carrying our codex on its back. I’m still surprised I don’t see killrigs in any of these lists.
Surely you'd want snakes over goffs for the cav? The extra pip of strength is great and all, but the +1 to wound is more useful in a variety of situations. And exploding sixes isn't realizable, though is it as situational as the discount transhuman?
I do reckon the freeboota playstyle is heavily meta reliant though, as much as I adore it. Currently the mix of MSU for objectives and chunky units for output is great for it, lets you trigger the trait with just one or two squigbuggies then the other vehicles can do more heavy lifting. But if it swings back to knights then the list style struggles as you won't be able to optimize the use of the trait.
Goodness knows what the point adjustments will bring for us when they inevitably happen. But a host of other armies are needing them more than us, looking at you DE and admech. I would love for the squigboss to stay relevant, just so fun to have a big, chunky wrecking ball character that can actually get about and do what he wants. Shame he's limited by damage 2 though. I miss the dmg 4 you could get with the Killa Klaw boss.
cody.d. wrote: Surely you'd want snakes over goffs for the cav? The extra pip of strength is great and all, but the +1 to wound is more useful in a variety of situations. And exploding sixes isn't realizable, though is it as situational as the discount transhuman?
I do reckon the freeboota playstyle is heavily meta reliant though, as much as I adore it. Currently the mix of MSU for objectives and chunky units for output is great for it, lets you trigger the trait with just one or two squigbuggies then the other vehicles can do more heavy lifting. But if it swings back to knights then the list style struggles as you won't be able to optimize the use of the trait.
Goodness knows what the point adjustments will bring for us when they inevitably happen. But a host of other armies are needing them more than us, looking at you DE and admech. I would love for the squigboss to stay relevant, just so fun to have a big, chunky wrecking ball character that can actually get about and do what he wants. Shame he's limited by damage 2 though. I miss the dmg 4 you could get with the Killa Klaw boss.
I can see squigbuggies, Squigboss and killrigs going up by about 10, 10 and 15/20 respectively. Then maybe scrapjets, squighogs and dakkajets getting small increases as well. I don't think we'll be hit too badly as there isn't really anything we have that is broken, but we do have stuff that is overtuned when compared with the units its competing for slots with.
cody.d. wrote: Surely you'd want snakes over goffs for the cav?
1) A popular thing is Evil sunz for a squigboss with rezmekkas redder paint. If you are going to run a squig list, you really want 3 detachments to max out on squig bosses, so you can mix and match kulturs. But the rezmekka relic is definitely good enough that Evil Sunz is taken for that alone.
2) Apart from that, both Goffs and Snakebites will work well. Blood Axe is good, of you plan on maxing out on smasha nobs, and it helps you survive T1 shooting. Squighog riders are not that durable.
3) The beastgob warlord trait on a squigosaur boss can push damage beyond D2
4) Meganobz with 2 killsaws = 1 extra attack alltogether. If they had wanted each saw to give an extra attack, then there would be no need for the 2 killsaw requirement.
But it’s clear squigbuggies, scrapjets, kommandos, stormboys, beastboss on squig, and warboss on bike are literally Carrying our codex on its back. I’m still surprised I don’t see killrigs in any of these lists.
That's only because we're seeing competitive lists that placed in GTs and in those GTs conversions aren't always allowed. Also the Killrig hasn't been released yet, and not all players (let alone tournament ones) are actually into scratch building stuff.
Exactly. Hard to judge new units, a lot of tournaments do not allow models not for sale yet.
I doubt they nerf the ork buggies. They do not bloody care about Drrukhari boat spam for almost a year, which is significantly more dangerous and obviously totaly broken. Buggies are strong and new. After few months, we' ll see how we stand with them.
But as I said before, what will be crazy is the arrival of the Killrigs…
Tomsug wrote: It comes soon. I 'm waiting to finish the conversion until it officialy comes out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Competitive Innovation is out and Orks almost everywhere with 2 main builds - Freebootas with Deathskulls or BloodAxe buggy spam.
And some experiments, that was obviously also succesfull, incl goffs and sneakbites?
However, the thesis about Kommandos hiding in the Kannonwagons is super weird…
Yeah, gotta agree there, it goes against the whole point of Kommandos IMO, either you use it for early game objective grabbing and squatting in ruins, or you use them as an alpha strike unit. I don't see how they would be in a situation to go inside the kannonwagons.
I was wondering about that as well. Since the kannonwagon gets no drawbacks from just moving at full speed, maybe they drive to where the kommandoz were positioned and pick up stragglers from nearly dead units?
Hardly a super-secret tech though, possibly goonhammer is just marinesplaining orks again. The call for a points increase for dakkajets also seemed quite nonsentical.
As for nerfs, I really don't see anything requiring a price bump but squig buggies. They aren't broken good, but they are spammed way too much for a healthy game - kind of like smashas last codex. At 100 points they still would be totally fine, while still significantly hitting those lists that bring 9.
Scrapjets might be going up by 5, but I'm not convinced they have to.
In general, I feel like removing so many good kustom jobs, limiting them to single model units and overcosting those which remained was a huge design mistake. Previously it provided rewards for bringing a varied list, now people just spam the best baseline ad ultimo. If the SJD job were still there, we'd at least be seeing three types of buggies.
Hi there… I really struggle between fielding a Biker or a Trike as Speedboss for my Freebootaz.
a quick reminder… everything I will say is under the premise that you’ll run him to utilize a Speedwaagh. And i used to HATE the trike. Been fielding my Warboss on Bike since 4th edition, but recently i played alot with the Trike, since the rules for the bike were a mess. ...and i gotta admit, he's done alright in my games so far.
Well... thats why I wanted to make a comparison for me anyways.. so why not share my thoughts with you all. Maybe this will help someone or maybe you can find flaws in my logic.
Anyways ...the wind blows and ERE WE GO!
Profiles vs the Trike, the BikerBoss has:
+ 1 strength, + 1 toughness, -1 wound, -1 LD
the profiles are quite similar, no real winner here. The toughness isn’t as important me thinks, going from 6 to 7, it only really matters for CC but even then, ramshackle even things out, especially since the trike has one more wound. The + 1 strength could matter, but on the other hand, the trike rerolls all woundrolls. So again, not much difference. The real difference here is in the flexibility of the bike, since it can take either a klaw or bigchoppa, which can be enhanced by relics. But more on that later…
wargear
similar shooting, double dakkagunz better than triple boomsticks, but trike has the flamer/melta, so I guess the trike wins here. Also, the Trike is a vehicle, which means he can shoot all his weapons into CC. Six s5 shots and a flamer or two melta shots to the face are no joke. Those can easily pling of a wound or two, clear some chaff or with luck do massive damage against a hard opponent. in mho the trike wins the shooting game.
CC on the other hand… the basic loadout, bigchoppa or klaw vs Snagga Claw, is a draw. Yes, the bike has that magical s8 and better threshold, but because of the rerolls of the snagga claw, it insn’t that big of a deal. The biker klaw has -1 to hit, wounds better and has +1 ap, the coppa has one less ap than the snagga. The snagga rerolls all wounds. Imho the choppa as a standalone weapon is worse. Maybe the klaw is slightly better than the snagga? It matters mainly vs high toughness targets and the extra ap could come in handy. AGAIN, relics and stuff will matter, but we’re not there yet Overall, the Trike has better shooting and slightly worse basic CC weapon, but can also shoot into CC, so at best a draw, I personally see the Trike ahead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Abilities:
here the clear winner is the trike. It can do everything the bike can, but also as the ability to advance 9” instead of 6 and he has mighty ramshackle… and he can use Rammingspeed, which is kinda of a big deal. Bummer that the bike didn’t receive the cloud of smoke.
warlordtraits / relics
The traits are the same for both. But the Trike can’t receive any relics at all. The bike can boost his damage output by taking either the Headwompa or the Kklaw, which makes him clearly better in CC. you could combine further offensive strats like BbK to really make him a monster in CC. Bike clearly wins here….
….BUUUT the real question is DO YOU REALLY WANT TO? Lets be honest here. Both are ok’ish in terms of survivability (only real CC dedicated units can one shot them, and both can take a at least one or two lasCans to the face) but to really boost em into “A-Tier-level” they need the Ard as Nails trait, which leaves the CC abilities of both in the “ok’ish” area. The relics help the Biker a lot to push him into “good-tier” but without BbK, it will never be “A”.
I always used the Biker as a “Kill what I want missile unit” but that doesn’t work anymore. He can’t advance and charge and needs to be the Warlord cause how speedwaagh works. Honestly nowadays me thinks he’s more of a support/countercharge unit (like the trike). He doesn’t need to destroy everything he touches in one round. And honestly with all the -1 dmg, -1 tohit, only 4+ to wound and loss of the 4dmg swing he really can’t.
Conclusion
All in all I really can’t see a clear winner. Both are very niche anyway, and in some instances the Trike will be better in certain configurations, other times it will be the Bike.
If you still want to use a speedboss as a “remove what I touch” unit, go with the bike, headwompa or kklaw and BbK, but be prepared to lose him afterwards.
As a countercharge/support unit I would go with the Trike. Give him hard as Nails and ramspeed him into whatever threatens your important stuff.
The thing is… We have better options for hard hitting HQ’s (looking at the Squigosaur especially). So I would say Check what other HQ’s you have, what traits and relics THEY need and THEN decide if you want a bike or a trike, both are good at what they do. Just PLEASE forget the missilebiker of 8th, he doesn’t exist enymore and will only coud your judgement.
Very good analysis, pretty much sums up my feeling on the topic perfectly.
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Hard to judge new units, a lot of tournaments do not allow models not for sale yet.
I doubt they nerf the ork buggies. They do not bloody care about Drrukhari boat spam for almost a year, which is significantly more dangerous and obviously totaly broken. Buggies are strong and new. After few months, we' ll see how we stand with them.
But as I said before, what will be crazy is the arrival of the Killrigs…
My thoughts about scrapjets and squigbuggies going up are purely a "if they wanted to nerf the most prevalent ORK GT lists" kind of thought process.
Killrigs are going to make a lot of noise when they go on sale. I don't think they took base size into account when writing the rules for them, because frazzle is a silly amount of damage potential.
Tomsug wrote: Exactly. Hard to judge new units, a lot of tournaments do not allow models not for sale yet.
I doubt they nerf the ork buggies. They do not bloody care about Drrukhari boat spam for almost a year, which is significantly more dangerous and obviously totaly broken. Buggies are strong and new. After few months, we' ll see how we stand with them.
But as I said before, what will be crazy is the arrival of the Killrigs…
My thoughts about scrapjets and squigbuggies going up are purely a "if they wanted to nerf the most prevalent ORK GT lists" kind of thought process.
Killrigs are going to make a lot of noise when they go on sale. I don't think they took base size into account when writing the rules for them, because frazzle is a silly amount of damage potential.
This never works... the idea increased costs will solve the issue is not right. Seen many games do the same. Meta will simply rotate into the next spam able unit. I am a beginner but i know this. The issue is we have few units competing for the role or there isn't enough diversity in the game because the oponent is doing the same.
Jidmah wrote: I doubt that the squigbuggy is that easy to rotate, as it provides something we can get nowhere else - out of LOS shooting.
For the scrapjet, I'll fully agree. If they nerf it, people will just jump to the unit with the next best shooting/points ratio.
Agree, on the squigbuggy. If they really want to mix things it would be nerfing it's range. At 36 is too comfortable. At 24 it would force changes, can also see them dropping S to 4 if that would not be enough... forcing it to an anti-infantry role. But this is speculation...
True, but GW has been reluctant to balance stuff through any other means but changing CP or points, which is related to them insisting on using books as their primary rules medium.
Changing ranges and strength would be such a great tool for balancing units, but it's nothing that I expect to happen.
But taking this further would mean that I break my own rules and I can't stand hypocrites
What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
Aside from speedy characters like the wartrike or (whom you don't want to sacrifice turn 1 I assume), Evil sunz sguig riders (or bikers but they don't hit hard), if you let go of the speedwaagh (not sure that is a good idea) or if you choose Ghaz can provide a strong t1 charge if your opponent advances slightly mid board turn 1.
What battleplan involving turn 1 charges do you have in mind ?
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
Kommandos are good for turn one charges as well if you have the room to deploy close enough. I've been running two units of ten with a PK on the nob, a breacha ram and a bomb squig in each and they provide a good amount of immediate threat of you get first turn.
If not then they just melt, but at least then my trukk boys get in unmolested.
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
In my opinion, T1 charges are nothing you should including in your primary game plan. Orks aren't drukhari and many things we could potential charge in turn 1 match or outmatch us in melee, and you opponent has a great amount of control over what you can charge, how many units you can get in engagement range, etc. Worst case, they are protected by fight last abilities. And even if you take a chunk out of your opponent with an insane bonebreaka, kill rig, buggy, piston dread, beastboss or warboss charge, you have tossed that tool away for the rest of the game.
What you should be looking for is counter-charges. If you go first setting up units like trukkboyz or scrapjets in a safe position and then jump on a target of your choice turn 2, so you can do the fight on your terms. A good way to do this is to position them near objectives in such away that they can only reached by hail-marry charges by units that plan to move there. If they take the chance you get overwatch (evaluate if it's worth the CP) and draw the charging unit off objectives, while also potentially reducing models that can fight. If they don't take the chance or fail, in your turn you can then move in to charge them and flip the objective.
If you go second, it's an in your opponent's hands anyways. Aggressively deployed alpha-strike units primarily serve as disruption to their plans, only go for the T1 charge if it's actually beneficial for you (trade up, flip objectives, take out high priority target, tie down high damage shooting units). A good opponent will try to bait you into easy fights, just to take out a valuable unit on their terms. Fight smart, bully the weak, kill wot comes close
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
Well, you have trukkboy/nobz of course. But also bikers if you advance and charge under waagh, kommandos can deploy forward, stormboyz can get nice and far forward, a bikerboss or wartrike will make it to the frontlines nicely first turn. The jump is also an option, gets easier if you throw follow me lads on the bosses. Of course deffkoptas can get within charge range, but the lack of core means no advance so you'll need a large roll.
Soooo if you wanted to build around that first turn strike, yeah you could have pretty much your entire army in the opponants deployment zone T1. Competitive? Maybe not, you'd be losing some resiliance or damage output. But is it fun? YES!
RedNoak wrote: dont see how orks will ever field only one detachment... good part is, our strats are meh either way... so we are not really dependent on CP
Agree. It seems like a no-brainer to picking a patrol for free as you first detachment with one tax unit and then just add outrider, patrol, SHA and/or supreme command to field whatever the hell you want. The CP costs are completely offset by being able to bring more combat monsters, clans better suited to your units, specialist mobs and not having to bring boyz or gretchin.
What feels odd is that I'm completely fine with that.
The design paradigm is abundantly apparent. GW does not want Ork Hordes, and I believe Hordes in general. The problem I have with them is that they are doing this but at the same time NOT doing this and the resulting confusion of rules makes the Number 1 Iconic Ork unit a garbage option. GW doesn't want horde, got it. Instead of nerfing boyz into oblivion like they did, they could just limit boyz units to 10 models and let them keep their good rules. If you really want to discourage people from taking a double battalion and still bringing 120 boyz you could just limit them again. Its not like GW hasn't crapped on unit choice in the past *Cough Rule of 3 *Cough.
As for nerfs, I really don't see anything requiring a price bump but squig buggies. They aren't broken good, but they are spammed way too much for a healthy game - kind of like smashas last codex. At 100 points they still would be totally fine, while still significantly hitting those lists that bring 9.
Scrapjets might be going up by 5, but I'm not convinced they have to.
In general, I feel like removing so many good kustom jobs, limiting them to single model units and overcosting those which remained was a huge design mistake. Previously it provided rewards for bringing a varied list, now people just spam the best baseline ad ultimo. If the SJD job were still there, we'd at least be seeing three types of buggies.
We are back in a world of "Orkz can't have nice things". Even with our super OP easy win Dakkajetz orkz aren't placing in anyway similar to post nerf Drukhari, Post nerf Ad Mech or even some of the other longer standing factions like Death Guard. We have entire events where Orkz are spamming the "broken" units and aren't placing or are barely in the top 8.
I've seen some whinging online about the Dakkajet in particular. The gist of it is that Marine players are upset that it can slaughter their infantry in 1 turn if its in a freeboota detachment, someone kills a nearby unit and during a WAAAAGH turn. 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds and something like 10Dmg. Oh No, 5 dead infantry, the horror. And it only required a Once a game buff and killing an entire enemy unit before shooting the dakkajets. These are probably the same muppets who had no problem with Mutli-melta spam basically destroying any balance in the game for heavy vehicles. I think the funniest part is that they also complained about Ramshackle while in the breath talking about how its hard to kill with Melta and Dark Lances...completely ignoring the fact that Ramshackle doesn't impact those weapons at all Apparently its too durable at 120pts with T6 12 wounds and a 4+ save. I'll also guess they were the same ones freaking out over T5 Ork Boyz and probably still want them to have a price increase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
This is where Jidmah and I disagree, I think Alpha strike is how orkz should be built. I listed in another page my competitive 40k list. But the main point is that its an alpha strike army filled with Turn 1 Threat options.
Its 3 Patrol Detachments with a warboss equipped how you like (Infantry only though)
3x10 Trukk Boyz
3x10 Kommandos
3x10 Stormboyz
2x3 DeffKoptas.
Turn 1 you can have literally 90 Ork infantry in assault range with relative ease. Trukk Boyz have 20' movement and D6 +2D6 advance and charge for an average of 30' threat range. Kommandos can deploy 9' from the enemy lines and move 6, add in an advance roll since their shooting is pathetic and you are easily in range turn 1. Stormboyz are harder, they move 18 with advance, lose 1 guy half the time and than have either a 6' charge or significantly longer depending on where the enemy is. The Deffkoptas are better, they move faster and have a safer auto-advance, the only issue is that they also have 2D3 rokkitz each so if they advance they can't shoot them and once they get stuck in CC they still can't shoot. However, in CC they have 9 attacks each at S6 -1AP as Goffs. That is some pretty hefty dmg output for them. Turn 2 the Trukkz disgorge their warbosses and now you have a Beta strike capable of mulching most enemy heavy units with relative ease, and of course you have 3 trukkz to sit midfield or retreat back to your own lines to hold objectives. The list also features some Mek gunz more as place holders and rear line objective holders.
But it’s clear squigbuggies, scrapjets, kommandos, stormboys, beastboss on squig, and warboss on bike are literally Carrying our codex on its back. I’m still surprised I don’t see killrigs in any of these lists.
That's only because we're seeing competitive lists that placed in GTs and in those GTs conversions aren't always allowed. Also the Killrig hasn't been released yet, and not all players (let alone tournament ones) are actually into scratch building stuff.
I mean we have been calling the above list our best units since the codex release. The GT placings haven’t changed that… (which is why I mentiond killrigs as one of our best units even though I haven’t seen a GT list include one yet). Personally I think stormboys are the weakest in the bunch since they are statistically inferior to kommandos and die even easier but I get the fact they are cheap and people like them for fast objective grabbers especially in freebooter lists where they can turn on objective secured when needed. My only surprise from GT lists is the 18+ scrapjet/squigbuggy spam mostly because I thought 3x buggy datasheets was a hinderance due to morale issues and anti vehicle spam being popular but it’s doing better then I thought.
Now we just wait for our campaign book leaks and hope for a decent army of renown to add more variety. Hoping for dread waaagh or greentide.
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
In my opinion, T1 charges are nothing you should including in your primary game plan. Orks aren't drukhari and many things we could potential charge in turn 1 match or outmatch us in melee, and you opponent has a great amount of control over what you can charge, how many units you can get in engagement range, etc. Worst case, they are protected by fight last abilities. And even if you take a chunk out of your opponent with an insane bonebreaka, kill rig, buggy, piston dread, beastboss or warboss charge, you have tossed that tool away for the rest of the game.
What you should be looking for is counter-charges.
I mostly agree, but I also feels that it sometimes comes down to the same thing. If I have units with a long threat-range, then I can deploy them back for the counter-charge, or forwards if my opponent deploys very aggressively.It just gives flexibility.
For example, in my last game my opponent had deployd a plagueburst crawler unusually forward, and I realised later that I could have advanced, shot (partially) and charged with my shokkjump dragsta out of my own deployment zone. And I should have. And while charging with the dragsta would never be my primary gameplan, to have that option, and to know the ranges (ungefæhr) involved, I think can really help. Regards
This is where Jidmah and I disagree, I think Alpha strike is how orkz should be built. I listed in another page my competitive 40k list. But the main point is that its an alpha strike army filled with Turn 1 Threat options.
Its 3 Patrol Detachments with a warboss equipped how you like (Infantry only though)
3x10 Trukk Boyz
3x10 Kommandos
3x10 Stormboyz
2x3 DeffKoptas.
So, you deploy the Stormboyz normally,and advance them up the board? Dont you get shot up to the extreme, when you lose first turn? Have you tried adding some of your many warbikes to the mix?
cody.d. wrote: Surely you'd want snakes over goffs for the cav?
1) A popular thing is Evil sunz for a squigboss with rezmekkas redder paint. If you are going to run a squig list, you really want 3 detachments to max out on squig bosses, so you can mix and match kulturs. But the rezmekka relic is definitely good enough that Evil Sunz is taken for that alone.
.
Regards
This is one I am looking at closely, the squig riders are little bit slower than bikers and this makes them a little vulnerable to a charge. Having the movement buff helps a little but the relic on a character (smasha squig) ready to heroically intervene and make the enemy unit fight last is sweeet sweeet music lol
The fact that they can also advance and shoot without penalty with the stikka weapon also tipped me to evil sons
I found that offensive buffs from goffs and snakebites were a bit redundant, they slaughtered everything in my game I played.
Killrigs with Waaagh can alphastrike too. And it could be very intense.
However, I don' t see the point in T1 charging the Kommandos.
You deploy them 9” in front of enemy deploy to block enemy movement and telyports etc to get wide board control.
If you go second, they die but opponent is no more than 9+3” from its deploy.
If go first, you either hold the objectives = win for you.
Or charge, die in CC and clear opponents the way. The best that can happen is, you not die and opponents shoot you down next turn. This could in some cases cause a terrible trafic jam in opponents deploy, but in my eyes, such result is an evidence of opponents stupid list or gameplan.
Or do I miss something?
Goonhammer “Kannonwagon for Kommandos” is pure goonhammer nonsence. KW is great for sitting in the back, screenning your deploy and zooming 12” side to side to see anywhere. That is their great adventage againts Mek Guns. 60” range and 12” move = nowhere to hide. And 3 big shootas to bully small infantry in your half of the table.
About buggies spam, it's a bit sad. There are quite a lot of good units in the codex and I hope we can see more variety in competition list
Pretty sure we can already get a competitive list with dread mob, with a careful list building and strategy.
XC18 wrote: About buggies spam, it's a bit sad. There are quite a lot of good units in the codex and I hope we can see more variety in competition list
Pretty sure we can already get a competitive list with dread mob, with a careful list building and strategy.
Unfortunately, I can't see how Dread Mob can compete with Buggies atm. Unless we get something that really boosts them in the next Charadon book, they're simply both outgunned and outpaced by Buggies, not to mention the general lack of synergy from any strats barring the KFF exploding one. At least buggies can get the -1 to hit strat for being speed freeks. We also have a lot less for choice. We're more or less relegated to just the Mega Dread, the Deff Dread, Killa Kanz and maybe a Gorka/Morkanaut. If Killa Kanz were 40 points base, including the rokkit launcha, then I'd say there would be more of a case to make for them, but as it is, they don't have the firepower, efficiency, or speed to do much even if we spam them.
XC18 wrote: About buggies spam, it's a bit sad. There are quite a lot of good units in the codex and I hope we can see more variety in competition list
Pretty sure we can already get a competitive list with dread mob, with a careful list building and strategy.
There was some discussion a while back about this. I think the current format for dreads is either skorcha, full claw or mega canon. But each come with their disadvantages. I think the best one is skorcha one in evil sunz. since you gain a huge movement increase and you don't care about WS. But others prefer canon with freebootez for +1 or Goff full claw. up to you. their not bad.. we just have better options.
Kans are still a bit overpriced, and morka/gorkanaught going to lords of war also put a nail on that coffin
I guess I have to test a list and come back to you about it Honestly I:m thinking of a combination of tellyported Dreads (Big Krumpaz?) / dread with orkmatic piston / mega dread with shokka hill, Morkanaut (with buzzgob for +1 to hit?), big krumpaz tellyport Gork, some Deffkoptas, some kommandos for distraction, etc...
XC18 wrote: I guess I have to test a list and come back to you about it Honestly I:m thinking of a combination of tellyported Dreads (Big Krumpaz?) / dread with orkmatic piston / mega dread with shokka hill, Morkanaut (with buzzgob for +1 to hit?), big krumpaz tellyport Gork, some Deffkoptas, some kommandos for distraction, etc...
Hey, who knows, I'd be more than happy to find out that Dread Mob works out in some way. Let me know how your results work out!
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
For starters, it should probably not be your only battle plan but it's good to have this option. There are a number of situations when you do want t1 charges - either to lock the enemy in deployment t1 for better scoring, performing secondaries, preventing the enemy from shooting for a turn, exploiting positioning - especially when you can hide behind blos somewhere on a flank near the opponent's objective markers, etc.
Personally, I often utilise t1 charges - especially in smaller games.
If you're starting with 18" Deployment - most things will be able to perform t1 charges in case you take regular waagh for advance + charge or pack speedy units. And regular waagh is in many situations better than shooty waagh even for buggy lists (that are supposed to be shooty) in small games. Or you could be running ghaz.
When you start with 24" Deployment, your options are more limited but are still pretty vast:
Trukk boyz, All speedy characters in case of regular waagh or fast-ish vehicles with ramming speed: Trike, 14" Move buggies, koptas, etc. Kommandoes and dajumoing units are also an option but they're even more risky.
So, you deploy the Stormboyz normally,and advance them up the board? Dont you get shot up to the extreme, when you lose first turn? Have you tried adding some of your many warbikes to the mix?
And that is the beauty of the unit itself, it deploys INSIDE your deployment zone, preferably on the line. While they are a juicy target if you lose 1st turn thanks to 6+ armor, you can easily deploy them on a piece of terrain to make them a bit more durable, but more importantly, if you do go second your opponent will be forced to focus fire down the Kommandos who are 9' from his deployment line. And 10 models with T5 and a 3+ armor save aren't easy to just delete, not to mention that at 10ppm they aren't exactly appealing to the enemy to direct heavy weapons at. A Melta Gun for instance only has a 44% chance to kill 1 Kommando, Even less if the terrain feature they are in also gives -1 to hit. A Heavy bolter on average kills 0.5 Kommandos a turn if they are in cover, translates to it taking 20 Heavy bolters to kill 1 10 man unit of Kommandos in cover.
But, if you are really hesitant you can always hide them in obscuring terrain and just try for an opponent to advance towards you in hopes you can get a strong assault against their forward units.
Just had a thought, a beast boss with super cybork and half chewed feels like a fairly good tank. Get them in range of any beatstick and you get a 4++, half damage then a 4+++ against anything that does get through. Feels like it'd be useful for simply outlasting the enemy as you chip away at them.
But do you really want to use one HQ slot of your 2-3 warbosses you gonna take for the Beast Boss on foot if he is competing with the Trike, Warboss on Bike and Squigbosses?
A Squigboss with 'Ard as nails & Beasthide mantle gives you similar defensive capabilities against characters (have not fully done the math, but against most stuff the squigboss with 3+ wounds, +1 toughness and -1 Dmg should at least be on par, if not even better) and will be better against anything not a character / monster for sure.
Personally I'd rather take Cybork Body on the MA Big Mek if you don't want da ded shiny shoota or on another secondary character if you have free relics left for some reason and want to make your characters tanky.
And 10 models with T5 and a 3+ armor save aren't easy to just delete, not to mention that at 10ppm they aren't exactly appealing to the enemy to direct heavy weapons at.
A single compet. Edge/ triptych whip succubus will slay 6-7, in combination with moral, you will lose 7-9 Models... This stratagey seems only viable if the enemy does not have good CC, else you are losing 100+ points to a single character that usually can be screened sufficiently thanks to the agressive deployment the kommandos need if they are set up for a T1 charge.
And 10 models with T5 and a 3+ armor save aren't easy to just delete, not to mention that at 10ppm they aren't exactly appealing to the enemy to direct heavy weapons at.
A single compet. Edge/ triptych whip succubus will slay 6-7, in combination with moral, you will lose 7-9 Models... This stratagey seems only viable if the enemy does not have good CC, else you are loosing 100+ points to a single character that usually can be screened sufficiently thanks to the agressive deployment the kommandos need if they are set up for a T1 charge.
I would use MSU of 5 kommandos with snakebites kulture to screen, sure the succubus will wipe them, likely, but that's a tied up unit cleaning 55cp only and setting itself for a bullet salvo next turn. But that's how I use mine and if they ignore the kommandos I put them on VP so they get to score.
cody.d. wrote: Just had a thought, a beast boss with super cybork and half chewed feels like a fairly good tank. Get them in range of any beatstick and you get a 4++, half damage then a 4+++ against anything that does get through. Feels like it'd be useful for simply outlasting the enemy as you chip away at them.
I'm pretty sure the super cybork body is infantry only, so you can't take it on a beastboss sadly. You're better off just taking the beasthide mantle and ard as nails if you want a tanky beastboss.
I know people think the Stompa sucks, but what about throwing Da Badskull Banna on it, tossing it into the middle, using its shooting/combat to kick off the Freebootaz buff for other units? I know it can’t benefit from the buff but it’s a giant model for the banna and should be able to pick up chaff for the shooting buff, absolutely deletes things in combat.
The Shrike wrote: I know people think the Stompa sucks, but what about throwing Da Badskull Banna on it, tossing it into the middle, using its shooting/combat to kick off the Freebootaz buff for other units? I know it can’t benefit from the buff but it’s a giant model for the banna and should be able to pick up chaff for the shooting buff, absolutely deletes things in combat.
Compare its durability and dmg output to Knights. If its less than those but costs more than there is your answer. The biggest issue with a large model like that is that its a bullet sponge. So it either has to have a lot of durability or it dies without doing any dmg to your opponent. And something to keep in mind, they actually reduced its dmg output recently. Yes they dropped its price significantly, but they also took away the Psycho Dakka rule so its main gun shoots about 1/2 as much.
Not aware of how you can give kultures to the stompa so maybe I missing something.. so if you can't give culture it can't take neither the bandana or give or receive the freebooterz buff.
Forceride wrote: Not aware of how you can give kultures to the stompa so maybe I missing something.. so if you can't give culture it can't take neither the bandana or give or receive the freebooterz buff.
This is a common misconception, not helped by Battlescribe being currently incorrect. You can give a Stompa in an auxiliary detachment a culture, it simply can’t use the detachment benefits. But it is of that culture and thus can kick off the Freebootaz buff and take relics like the banna.
There is a difference between being a particular clan and not benefitting from it.
Superheavy Aux doesnt benefit from it, but it does not lose the tags.
In any case, the stompa is not a character and therefore cannot have relics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Yes they dropped its price significantly, but they also took away the Psycho Dakka rule so its main gun shoots about 1/2 as much.
I'm super curious what narrative you will spin this time to explain how going from 3d6 + (3d6 * 0.8444) with a 16.66% chance of breaking the gun to dakka 24/16 is shooting 50% less.
Forceride wrote: Not aware of how you can give kultures to the stompa so maybe I missing something.. so if you can't give culture it can't take neither the bandana or give or receive the freebooterz buff.
This is a common misconception, not helped by Battlescribe being currently incorrect. You can give a Stompa in an auxiliary detachment a culture, it simply can’t use the detachment benefits. But it is of that culture and thus can kick off the Freebootaz buff and take relics like the banna.
Ah thx for correcting me, that is very good to know, and values a bit more a few models.
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
This is a common misconception, not helped by Battlescribe being currently incorrect. You can give a Stompa in an auxiliary detachment a culture, it simply can’t use the detachment benefits. But it is of that culture and thus can kick off the Freebootaz buff and take relics like the banna.
Ah thx for correcting me, that is very good to know, and values a bit more a few models.
To expand on this, you can have Stompas benefit fully from clan cultures, but it means taking a super heavy detachment with two other LOWs for 1200pts+ and 6CP. That's a lot of investment for three models that don't fare great in the current meta.
The Shrike wrote: I know people think the Stompa sucks, but what about throwing Da Badskull Banna on it, tossing it into the middle, using its shooting/combat to kick off the Freebootaz buff for other units? I know it can’t benefit from the buff but it’s a giant model for the banna and should be able to pick up chaff for the shooting buff, absolutely deletes things in combat.
See I don't think that the Stompa is a bad unit anymore when you look at the points / datasheet alone. In fact it looks fairly decent on paper. However the wider 9E game does stack the deck against large LOW units in several ways to the point where even a 'decent' unit will struggle to benefit you in any competitive setting:
As said above, it's a real big target that's easy to draw LOS to from pretty much anything else on the board.
There's an up-front CP penalty for most LOW units, and recent codexes have put in restrictions to stop Titanic units benefitting from many special rules just like clan cultures
In an edition where objectives and actions win games, having many cheap and/or mobile units will always have an advantage over one large unit
GW have already walked back on the CP cost a little in the last GT pack, so I'm hoping that trend continues and we can see iconic units like the Stompa on tables more often
Jidmah wrote: In any case, the stompa is not a character and therefore cannot have relics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Yes they dropped its price significantly, but they also took away the Psycho Dakka rule so its main gun shoots about 1/2 as much.
I'm super curious what narrative you will spin this time to explain how going from 3d6 + (3d6 * 0.8444) with a 16.66% chance of breaking the gun to dakka 24/16 is shooting 50% less.
I was just pointing out that they took away the Psycho Dakka rule, the 50% was misleading, so my mistake I was just pointing out that it doesn't shoot 2 or 3 times anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a fun note, got 3 games in this weekend at a local tournament and went 3 and 0. Played against Thousand sons, a Speed Freakz ork list and an Imperial Guard list. Was a bit of a weird setup, At the end of the game against the Ork player, I only had 2 units and 4 total models left. But the closest game was against the Thousand sons player. Turn 1 my alpha strike destroyed 2/3rds of his army with relative ease. On his turn his remaining squads were able to fully gut 1/3rd of my army. Honestly, had I not gone first...he would have won with ease. The sheer amount of Mortal wounds they can push out in the Psychic phase is disturbing to say the least. The IG player got steam rolled, he couldn't even use his vehicles the entire game because I had them all locked in CC the whole game. Absolute funniest moment, I was able to Kamikazi a wounded Trukk into the IG players Tank Commander/Warlord and in doing so inflicted 3 mortal wounds which brought it down to 2 wounds remaining, in CC the Trukk somehow plinked a wound off and on my opponents turn he killed it with his sponson weapons...where it promptly exploded....killing his Warlord
So far my Goff Alpha Strike list is currently sitting at 8 and 0
Maybe strange to ask here but it I am asking for tactics involving orks so...
Doing a 2v2 tournament (1k each) and bringing speed freeks. wartrike, 2 scraps, squig buggie, dakkajet, wazboom and 6 warbikes. Whos a good partner for that? Custodes, sisters, marines, nids?
I didn't realize how different ork styles are from other armies until we tried out a game with custodes and one army ran in while one chilled in the back lol
SemperMortis wrote: So far my Goff Alpha Strike list is currently sitting at 8 and 0
Very impressive, seeing it I was thinking it would suffer heavily if it didn't get the first turn. How do you manage it in case you go second?
Distraction Kommandos. Again, T5 sitting in cover with 3+ saves are incredibly hard to shift. And when you invest 360pts in 3 units of 10 of them...well, its just annoying lol. I had 1 notable game where my opponent hit me with an absolute storm of S4 and S5 bolter fire, I rolled above average, but at the end of it my opponent only managed to kill about 12 Kommandos. Dudes entire turn was spend killing 140-150ish points. Yeah, T5 and 3+ isn't uncommon per se, but a Space Marine player is paying 40-50ppm for that statline. When you kill an eradicator or an aggressor with a Melta...its not a waste of firepower, on the flipside, when you kill an 11pt Kommando with a melta...you can see the physical pain in the person is in, knowing they are wasting such a good weapon on such a cheap throwaway unit
Remember, on average it takes 2 Heavy Bolters at BS3 to kill 1 Kommando in Cover. 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds and -1AP for a 4+. Against Bolters, it takes 13.5 shots to kill 1 Kommando.
I went 2nd in two out of my 3 games today and the game was heavy decided at the end of my turn each time. I have a friend who won a GT recently who I want to go against to test my list but at the moment I'm not even going to bother with Buggies.
Keramory wrote: Maybe strange to ask here but it I am asking for tactics involving orks so...
Doing a 2v2 tournament (1k each) and bringing speed freeks. wartrike, 2 scraps, squig buggie, dakkajet, wazboom and 6 warbikes. Whos a good partner for that? Custodes, sisters, marines, nids?
I didn't realize how different ork styles are from other armies until we tried out a game with custodes and one army ran in while one chilled in the back lol
I like Dark Eldar, or Eldar as they are also fast like Orks. DE in particular do some similar things since they also have open topped transports, and good fast attack options.
Also, what are players thoughts on the Distraction Grot, is it a good upgrade at 10pts or game plan situational-
Keramory wrote: Maybe strange to ask here but it I am asking for tactics involving orks so...
Doing a 2v2 tournament (1k each) and bringing speed freeks. wartrike, 2 scraps, squig buggie, dakkajet, wazboom and 6 warbikes. Whos a good partner for that? Custodes, sisters, marines, nids?
I didn't realize how different ork styles are from other armies until we tried out a game with custodes and one army ran in while one chilled in the back lol
I like Dark Eldar, or Eldar as they are also fast like Orks. DE in particular do some similar things since they also have open topped transports, and good fast attack options.
Also, what are players thoughts on the Distraction Grot, is it a good upgrade at 10pts or game plan situational-
I would say the distraction grot has a very situational use in our lists.
I personally don't think it's worthwhile if you're only running kommandos in groups of five, you may as well just get the extra kommando.
I don't think it's worthwhile if you play on boards that are heavy on terrain.
I don't think it's worthwhile if you just want to use your kommandos as small objective grabber/secondary scorer units, again you're better getting something else like another Kommando.
I would only use it in a very alpha strike centred list that features big blocks of kommandos tooled up for a first turn charge, and looking to kill whatever they make contact with. AND on a board that doesn't have a lot of terrain, AND if you don't have anything better to spend the points on throughout the rest of the list.
I would say that a bomb squig is a faaaar better investment for blobs of kommandos because of the mortal wound output, the general proximity of terrain to nullify the need for the grot, and finding 5 points per unit is a lot easier than 10.
This specific relic states it can be taken on vehicles. You could take it on a Trukk if you wanted to.
It's implied that it must be a character as well. The generic statement "If your army is led by.... give one of the following Shiny Gubbinz to an Ork Character model in your army " always applies.
What others have said. Page 68 (ork relics) clearly tells us that relics can only be given to characters, and while page 52 (clan relics) doesn't repeat that limitation, you need to be eligible for a relic to pick a clan relic instead. In addition, the examples on page 52 make it quite clear that <clan> relics can only be given to <clan> characters.
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 500PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Notes:
- gameplan was simple. Bully enemy in front as much as possible. Kommandos DO NOT CHARGE. But block the movement! Mostly I ´ ve build a wall of orks blocking opponents movement. Admech with Dragons, Rusttalkers and Cavalery get out of deploy (+/- few “) no faster than in T3. No chance to get over half of the board.
- trukks and BW like move blocking walls was great.
- Play without KFF was a risk and I say, it works agains AdMech…. Well…. More or less? Don ´ t know. Definitely no significant use of KFF againts Necrons and Tyranids.
- trigger freebota +1 is sometimes really hard. 30% of the rounds was without bonus.
- stormboyz mostly on the table or in transport. No DS. It was perfect! Always get in charge!
- Kannonwagons great. Screen and shoot. Works perfect.
- maybe skip the BW and take one more trukk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: - plaing without KFF means play without invu. This makes game much faster
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT ) HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS Boyz (100) 1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha 9x Ork Boy SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES Burna Boyz (55) 5x Burna Boy Burna Boyz (55) 5x Burna Boy
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Oh well! Now I know.
It’s my first codex for this edition and I am Tyranids main player for so long time lol.
Before I made any other mistakes, if I put 9 shoota and a big shoota Boyz mob in the trukk with More Dakka upgrades - who can gain More Dakka? Only one big shoota that attached on Trukk or it’s two Big shoota and 9 shoota?
Eh, you've probably missed just as many things that would have been in your favor. That's just how the first few games with a new codex go.
If stuff like that happens to me, the next time I meet the player I accidentally cheated, I explain the situation and apologize. It's not like they aren't going to find out eventually anyways, but this way you at least come across as honest and sporting.
Yep I will do.
It won’t make any difference if we rematch because I know my Ork better than today morning.
My only mistake was that Waaagh and score 5 pts was illegal. That mean I should have 80 pts instead of 90 pts. But if I fully painted my miniatures, I can have that 10 pts back XD
Orks Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 485PT )
HQ WARLORD: Big Mek in Mega Armour (90) Grot Oiler
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Big Krumpaz
TRAITS: 'Ard As Nails
RELICS: Supa-Cybork Body
TROOPS
Boyz (100)
1x Boss Nob 1x Kombi-skorcha
9x Ork Boy
SPECIALIST MOBS UPGRADE: Sneaky Gitz
ELITES
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Burna Boyz (55)
5x Burna Boy
Tomsug wrote: Killrigs and Beastbosses on pre-order next week. Now the nasty waaagh! starts!…. And will end with a nerf sometimes shortly after Christmas.
And by this all my chances to say “I was right” about ork release in Orktober falls and I have to say I was wrong
It is a very important quality to be able to admit that
BTW, in your 3-0 weekend, was the shock hull worth the 15 points on your badskull toting wartrike ? And would you change one of the two kannonwagon for two sguig buggies if you had the models ? Also, how would you rate an obsec warbaoss in mega armour ?
Because your list looks a lot like a freebooter + deathskull concept I am working on for my tournament practise game this saturday.
Tomsug wrote: Killrigs and Beastbosses on pre-order next week. Now the nasty waaagh! starts!…. And will end with a nerf sometimes shortly after Christmas.
And by this all my chances to say “I was right” about ork release in Orktober falls and I have to say I was wrong
It is a very important quality to be able to admit that
BTW, in your 3-0 weekend, was the shock hull worth the 15 points on your badskull toting wartrike ? And would you change one of the two kannonwagon for two sguig buggies if you had the models ? Also, how would you rate an obsec warbaoss in mega armour ?
Because your list looks a lot like a freebooter + deathskull concept I am working on for my tournament practise game this saturday.
Wartrike with badskull banner and shock hull etc. is either junk, or I don' t know how to use it. I will definitely skip Watrike and Banner, Shockhull and amybe the Roadkilla trait as well. Watrike hits like a wet noodle and die fast. That is one fact. The second is, that it is good to be in back and waiting where to roam and kill something not so strong. But this mean, Banner is useless. On other side, if you put the Watrike into the frontline to makes Banner works, it dies in a single turn. So again, Banner would be useless. I gona use Beastboss on Robosaur instead like a simple killing machine.
Change the Kannonwagons for Squigbuggies will be definitely and option to discuss. But they play slightly different role IMHO, so I have to think about it.
What am I more unsure about is the future of the planes. They lack the boots on the ground and trigger shooting that will be otherwise silent. On other hand, they perfectly kill what cannot be othervise killed and score the Engage. Maybe change of the planes for Squigbuggies?
My final list I 'm aiming has the squigbuggies, killrigs and beastboss on robosaur.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is interesting question for me is, whether keep or skip the BW with deffrola. In case of skip, replacement = another trukk + another bunch o 10 boyz…
Little bit about the secondaries:
1. In mission 13 - Vital Intel. - diagonal with 4 objectives on the diagonal axis - with such ammount of small INF squads I was able to plant 5 Banners and start doing 3 Good Bitz in T1 (yeah, going first of course…). This was potentialy 5+9=14VP scored on the beginning of T2.
On every objective with the Bitz, there was one squad as close to opponent deploy as possible with just one model on the objective doing Banners and the second squad as far as possible to doing bitz to have the chance to survive.
Of course, most of them failed, due the death of the mighty orks doing the action, but not all. 4 banners and 2 bits was done and what is more important, it makes the opponent to spread the army accros the whole field. Questionable tactics. Propably bad in games with full 5 turns. But in shorter games about 3-4 turns, it brings victory.
2. In Mission 32 - Sweap and Clear - take Direct Assault mission specific secondary, put the Stormboyz in the Battlewagon, push all transports in the center and make a move blocking wall with bodies in front blocking the charge to the wagons and trukks. And than jumping with the Stormboyz out of the BW and jump over opponents head with maximum advance and you get his home objective, because 3”disembark + 12” move + 6”adv = 21” from the center of the battlefield.
Direct Assault secondary is counted on the end of your turn (+2VP) and than comes the opponent turn and he lost another 5VP on primaries.
Than Stormboyz dies.
And than you do it again, because you have 2 squads of them in the Battlewagon Or not and make the opponent to have 6+ obsec models on his objective that are able to be 6+ models even after you charge them with the stormboyz (in such case, no advance of course).
Solid 15VP.
3. Mission 31 - Overrun - long deploy with 6 objectives, one in deploy and 2 another close to the deploy, both controlable from the deploy.
Da Good Bitz are a kunnin trick! They are 3 but one of them have to be the one, you control from your deploy. Just take it and score 3VP every turn. Plus another 3VP every turn for Banners of course. The rest it just keep opponent busy on his half of the table.
2 x solid 15VP for secondaries
Sorry Tomsung but when you take the goodbitz secondary the objectives selected can't be in deployment zones. Either yours or the enemy.
Additionally with how squishy most ork infantry is it can be pretty tricky to actually survive the turn you need to sit on that objective. If your opponent wants to kill the unit, they in theory shouldn't have much of an issue. Unless of course you sit a chunky unit on that objective to perform the action. But then you're spending lots of points that could be used to push up the midfield. Maaaaaybe a min sized unit of commandos if it's an objective not out in the open.
cody.d. wrote: Sorry Tomsung but when you take the goodbitz secondary the objectives selected can't be in deployment zones. Either yours or the enemy.
Additionally with how squishy most ork infantry is it can be pretty tricky to actually survive the turn you need to sit on that objective. If your opponent wants to kill the unit, they in theory shouldn't have much of an issue. Unless of course you sit a chunky unit on that objective to perform the action. But then you're spending lots of points that could be used to push up the midfield. Maaaaaybe a min sized unit of commandos if it's an objective not out in the open.
Misunderstanding. Not the objective in deploy. But objective that is possible to hold from deploy - mission 31 Overrun - definitely possible.
Yes, that is the role of my Grots, to sit at home, screen and score. And yes. I spending 50p for getting 15VP on one secondary. That is a good trade.
And yes, trying to pass bitz in the midfield, like I describing in the first mission is magnificent but pretty much a stupid idea. It was designed to bully the Deadguard list full of deepstriking terminators. They comes in T2 so there was a very solid chance to score high and screen the field and makes him drop in his deploy in the same time. And those of his army, who will be on the table will be slow. They will be able to get to the first ranks of my midfield units and kill them. But they already raised the banners, so who care. Second rank of units is to far to be killed in CC. However, second rank can dieon their bolter shooting. And that is the breaking point about kommandos in cover, fire distribuiton, LOS blocks from terrain and trucks pr simply too many targets too far away.
Mission 31 - objectives 2” from deploy = you can hold it from deploy.
That's a fair point. As long as you can move during the first turn without advancing to get onto that objective you can start performing the action. Though unless your opponent is generous or there are some janky deployment types that slip my mind your opponent gets to choose the first and last good bitz objective.
It could make a minimum sized unit of meganobz a worth while option to fufill the objective. Easier to see compared to grots, but much better at surviving incoming firepower. Reckon the extra price would be worth the investment?
In my experience 5 MANz work much better than 3. If someone actually tries to take them out to deny VP (which is not a terrible decision to make), finding the six extra damage is often a real problem for many armies. In many cases I had just one or two MANz left completing the action and holding the objective.
Jidmah wrote: In my experience 5 MANz work much better than 3. If someone actually tries to take them out to deny VP (which is not a terrible decision to make), finding the six extra damage is often a real problem for many armies. In many cases I had just one or two MANz left completing the action and holding the objective.
Agree. 3 MANs is not enough. 4 starts working. 5 is the best. And it' s not only about how to kill them, it' s also about what the MANz can kill. 3 are not able to finish anything than smallest dreadnought (with luck). 4-5 can finish redemptor / venerable dread (with help of strategem) and that is what counts. Damage is not important. Important is destroied unit.
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cody.d. wrote: … Though unless your opponent is generous or there are some janky deployment types that slip my mind your opponent gets to choose the first and last good bitz objective….
That is the kunnin part I try to point at. It seems to be stupid, your opponent place 2 of 3 Good Bitz. But who cares? You can place the one. And one is all you need. Because one score you 3 VP per turn. That is 15VP per game. That is the maximum. Other two bitz are just distraction. That is one scenario valid for missions like Overrun/31
Than, there is second scenario. Second scenario comes from the fact, there is no limit, how many Good Bitz you can do per turn. So maximum PER TURN is 9VP which is ridiculous. Show me another secondary, where you can score 9 VP per turn. Maybe killing 9 Vehicles? Pffff…. You can score max in just 2 turns and dont care about it for 3 another. This means, you can find a gameplans to score fast on the beginning or on the end of the game. In combinations with banners (theorycraft 6VP per turn max). My experiment was about scoring fast on the beginning (and this idea was pretty risky honestly). However, focus on annihliation of opponents units and score on the end seems to be much better plan.
I don't like min squads of manz either. Other than the damage output there's also the fact that losing one or two dudes means the whole unit is now useless while a 5 man squad can deal with a couple of casualties and still be functional.
Min squads of meganobz stopped working for me with the end of 7th since a single pk dude could do a lot of damage on his own back then, especially against vehicles.
So maximum PER TURN is 9VP which is ridiculous. Show me another secondary, where you can score 9 VP per turn. Maybe killing 9 Vehicles? Pffff…. You can score max in just 2 turns and dont care about it for 3 another. This means, you can find a gameplans to score fast on the beginning or on the end of the game. In combinations with banners (theorycraft 6VP per turn max).
I believe both Raise the Banners and Get Da Good Bitz are Shadow Operations objectives, so you can't take them together.
cody.d. wrote: … Though unless your opponent is generous or there are some janky deployment types that slip my mind your opponent gets to choose the first and last good bitz objective….
That is the kunnin part I try to point at. It seems to be stupid, your opponent place 2 of 3 Good Bitz. But who cares? You can place the one. And one is all you need. Because one score you 3 VP per turn. That is 15VP per game. That is the maximum. Other two bitz are just distraction. That is one scenario valid for missions like Overrun/31
In actuality, a single objective can only score you 12 points - not a bad haul, but not a guaranteed maximum either.
You can only score GDGB during the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th battle rounds due to its timing.
Just to add some data to the good bitz discussion:
11 Retrieval Mission - 2 objectives within 4" of each deployment zone. GOOD 12 Scorched Earth - 2 midline objectives. BAD 13 Vital Intelligence - 4 midline objectives. AVERAGE to BAD depending on enemy army. 21 Surround and Destroy - 2 midline objectives. BAD 22 Battle Lines - 2 midline objectives. BAD 23 The Scouring - 2 objectives within 4-5" of each deployment zone. GOOD 31 Overrun - 2 objectives within 4" of each deployment zone. GOOD 32 Sweep and Clear - 1 center objective, 2 objectives 12" from each deployment zone. BAD 33 Priority Target - 1 center objective, 1 objective within ~8" from each deployment. AVERAGE
Essentially, whenever there are 3 missions where you can do Tomsug's strategy, two where you can at least make sure to get one after T1 and four where you have to fight your opponent off center objectives to get any VP at all. To me it seems like you should take good bitz for missions where it's good and avoid it otherwise.
1. Gitz are really a Shadow op. so we can' t combine it with the Banners. Damn! So I played it wrong:( It ruins the whole concept! Aaaargh!
2. 12 VP on one Git objective is right. Still solid but not so great.
3. Thanks Jidmah for scoring the maps, I' ve come to similar conclusion except:
- missions 11, 12 where is 6 objectives, long deploy and the midfield objectives are far away - more to the edges of the map. On such map, with fast moving army with some CC punch (like my armies based on buggies + some transports + warbosses are) versus slower armies, you can “rotate” the field. Make a strong attack on one side of the board, conquer this midfield and hopefully also the opponents home objective. This makes you space to perform Gitz on one of the midfield obj.
- 23 is BAD, objectives too close to each other.
- 13 - can be GOOD beacause it is the mission with longest battle line with the objectives too far away. You can be sure, the objectvies in the corners will Good Bitz. So you practicaly makes opponent to stretch over the diagonal of the table to stop you on both sides.
- 33 - can be actually good. You move with the midfield objectives and this could be usefull. Need to think about it…
But what is more important on Jidmah comment - I don' t believe, there are some general strategies like “build a list with the secondaries gameplan and do it”. It is always about the mission and the opponent. Well.. maybe except “take the jets and score the engage”.
I even tried couple of times to make a “decision makeing chart” to help me fast decide what to takes. It can be done if based on the mission, but I really struggle to clasify the opponents. It ' s too complex. Slow/fast, shooty/cc, fly/non fly, low unit count/high unit count…
The only I see is want to camp / want to stand in the midfield / want to pin your down at home. But it doesn ' t help me, because the answer is always pin them down and shoot the rest
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, you inspired me to do this:
Just wondering if the original post is going to be updated post faq… taking out some of the issues that’s been addressed and
I think a case can be made for bumping up the warboss on bike a tier. Retaining speedboss, powerklaw and adding an invul and auto advance makes him a step above wartrike especially is you add in ard as nails trait imho.
I think the big Mek in mega armor should go down a tier especially since it no longer can hitch a ride in specialist transport but it’s still kinda the best second choice for HQ though that’s not saying much.
I want to see what happens in the next few tournies but I think either Killrig or kannonwagon is going to be heavily represented in future lists as well.
gungo wrote: Just wondering if the original post is going to be updated post faq… taking out some of the issues that’s been addressed and
I think a case can be made for bumping up the warboss on bike a tier. Retaining speedboss, powerklaw and adding an invul and auto advance makes him a step above wartrike especially is you add in ard as nails trait imho.
I think the big Mek in mega armor should go down a tier especially since it no longer can hitch a ride in specialist transport but it’s still kinda the best second choice for HQ though that’s not saying much.
I want to see what happens in the next few tournies but I think either Killrig or kannonwagon is going to be heavily represented in future lists as well.
I currently don't have time to update the post, and I don't think its worth the effort before the kill rig has been released.
In any case, as said multiple times before, you are still completely wrong on the MA big mek thing. The trukk can transport both the big mek and the specialist mob as long as it shares a clan with the big mek.
Wait why is that a question? The trukk doesn't have any changes in keywords, the unit does. And there's nothing to my knowledge prohibiting you from having different units getting into a transport as long as you have the capacity and the vehicles allows the occupants to embark. It's such a shame that a bigmek can't have the trukkboyz mob though. A deadshiny shoota driving around and hitting on 3s would be damn fun.
gungo wrote: Just wondering if the original post is going to be updated post faq… taking out some of the issues that’s been addressed and
I think a case can be made for bumping up the warboss on bike a tier. Retaining speedboss, powerklaw and adding an invul and auto advance makes him a step above wartrike especially is you add in ard as nails trait imho.
I think the big Mek in mega armor should go down a tier especially since it no longer can hitch a ride in specialist transport but it’s still kinda the best second choice for HQ though that’s not saying much.
I want to see what happens in the next few tournies but I think either Killrig or kannonwagon is going to be heavily represented in future lists as well.
I currently don't have time to update the post, and I don't think its worth the effort before the kill rig has been released.
In any case, as said multiple times before, you are still completely wrong on the MA big mek thing. The trukk can transport both the big mek and the specialist mob as long as it shares a clan with the big mek.
I must have missed the multiple times correcting me on the big Mek.. I thought the rule stated specialist OR clan meant either or not both but it’s the same wording as before just with specialist added. I still don’t think it’s a great almost required unit on its own. he doesn’t do much. He just fills a slot as a second HQ that has limited options.
Im not a super fan of buggies spam so ive tried to make an army list revolving around squig hogs and charging units instead which sounds a lot more fun. I dont really have these units but if you wouldnt mind giving some feedback if the list makes sense? Because if it does then id like to work towards being able to field such a list.
Spoiler:
2k list.
Evil Sunz patrol
HQ: Beastboss on squigosaur, brutal but kunnin, Beasthide mantle, WARLORD Weirdboy, fist of gork, Da Krunch
Troops: 10x Beast snagga boys 10x Beast snagga boys
No force org slot: Nob on Smasha Squig, BeastGob (big boss)
HQ: Mozrog Skragbad, (Big Boss)
Fast Attack: 2x Squigbuggy 2x Squigbuggy 5x Squighog boys 5x Squighog boys 5x Squighog boys, 1x bomb squig
Im unsure if i should run evil sunz for the patrol just to get the redder paint, but it is a good relic. On the other hand, the speed doesnt help the kommandos nor the stormboys, who would benefit more from Deathskulls. The stormboys and kommandos are primarily there to do ROD though, and otherwise actions that makes sense to do, since my list otherwise have no units really capable of doing actions. At least no units you want to not charge instead of doing actions. So what do you guys think? Could the list make any sense?
I have a bit of money that i need to spend to on some models, and my old list dont work with this new Ork codex. (used to run 90 boys with ghaz)
I played something similar recently but instead of the second kill rig I took more stormboys and Kommandos.
Also I went all Goffs for some extra melee punch.
The output is fantastic, but keep in mind it's kind of a glass hammer list and going second is really bad in some match ups.
It's hard to hide those Squighog Boys but still be able to charge, especially since you need to run around ruins.
With such lists I will probably take 3 detachments all the time for 3 Squigbosses.
One Snakebite for Mozrog, maybe one Death Skulls for ObSec Kommandos and Stormboys and the third I'm kinda unsure. Goffs for extra punch or Blood Axes for extra flexibility.
I think this kind of list could work but it shouldn't be this low on shooting and maybe an additional min squad of infantries could be useful to max out secondaries. Weirdboy can be skipped and 15 squig boyz are probably too many. I'd add some firepower.
Hmm. Alright sounds reasonable. I thought maybe 15 Squighogs would be good as they seem to punch way above their weight class. I feel like the weirdboy casting Fist of Gork was kind of crucial thats why i added him. But removing 5 squighogs and maybe finding room for 2 more squigbuggies?
Im not sure where to put the extra minimum squad of infantry, as both my beast snagga boys are riding kill rigs already. They would have to footslog.
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Grotrebel wrote: I played something similar recently but instead of the second kill rig I took more stormboys and Kommandos. Also I went all Goffs for some extra melee punch. The output is fantastic, but keep in mind it's kind of a glass hammer list and going second is really bad in some match ups. It's hard to hide those Squighog Boys but still be able to charge, especially since you need to run around ruins.
With such lists I will probably take 3 detachments all the time for 3 Squigbosses. One Snakebite for Mozrog, maybe one Death Skulls for ObSec Kommandos and Stormboys and the third I'm kinda unsure. Goffs for extra punch or Blood Axes for extra flexibility.
the idea for kommandos and stormboys were to do ROD or actions, not so much charge in to attack.
The squigriders would benefit more from snakebites than goff at that. but i admit i only went evil sunz for the redder paint relic, that lets enemies hit last.
Still, i feel a bit sad that my old 90 boy ghaz army doesnt work anymore. It means i need to find a new direction for my army i had just painted up, and the most obvious answer would be buggies and mechanized. I just dont care much for buggies spam so basically none of my buggies are painted.
I like the aestetics (if thats the word) of beast snaggas, so maybe focussing there could be a thing for me. conjuring up such a list though seems difficult for me. I always end up with a speed waaagh with buggies or ranged firepower with this new codex.
I run a ES/DS army and I could use some help choosing who get's 'Ard as Nails (-1 to wound)?
The ES WarbikerWarboss to help with his T7, W7 4+/5++, Redder paintjob.
or
The DS Megaboss to make him utterly miserable to shift with T6, W7, 2+/4++/5+++(vs MW), Halving damage and ObSec.
And what do I give the "loser"?
Of course, for infantries I meant cheap 50-55 points min units of Kommandos, Stormboyz, and eventually Burnaboyz or Gretchins.
oh right. i thought you meant more snagga boys or so. But yea i can see how more kommandos or stormboys would be beneficial.
I have played 3*4 sguighogs and they die to morale quite a bit (6 is such a low value…you lose just two and it’s one third of a chance to fail morale…), so I really wouldn’t go 3*5. You need the 3 mek gunz and like a Kanonwagon for a bit of shooting.
I have yet to try evil sunz hogs but I think with a regular waaagh they are the best. You can really cover quite some distance then charge, and they punch fine they don’t really need to be snakebite imho, but that will depend on the army you face.
Blackie is totally right on the mandatory minimum shooting though
ave yet to try evil sunz hogs but I think with a regular waaagh they are the best. You can really cover quite some distance then charge, and they punch fine they don’t really need to be snakebite imho, but that will depend on the army you face.
If you do the maths, the damage output of the Squighogs is higher as Goffs than as Snakebites... Snakebites are slightly tougher, but I would always prefer Goffs because of better buffs for the rest of the army.
Of course, for infantries I meant cheap 50-55 points min units of Kommandos, Stormboyz, and eventually Burnaboyz or Gretchins.
oh right. i thought you meant more snagga boys or so. But yea i can see how more kommandos or stormboys would be beneficial.
I have played 3*4 sguighogs and they die to morale quite a bit (6 is such a low value…you lose just two and it’s one third of a chance to fail morale…), so I really wouldn’t go 3*5. You need the 3 mek gunz and like a Kanonwagon for a bit of shooting.
I have yet to try evil sunz hogs but I think with a regular waaagh they are the best. You can really cover quite some distance then charge, and they punch fine they don’t really need to be snakebite imho, but that will depend on the army you face.
Blackie is totally right on the mandatory minimum shooting though
3x3 squig boyz are already a threat and with the spared points there's room for a couple of mek gunz and a 5th min squad of specialists, or 3 mek gunz or maybe a kannonwagon. Since they're so cheap, bomb squigs for the squig boyz can be nice to add as well.
Diakos wrote: I run a ES/DS army and I could use some help choosing who get's 'Ard as Nails (-1 to wound)?
The ES WarbikerWarboss to help with his T7, W7 4+/5++, Redder paintjob.
or
The DS Megaboss to make him utterly miserable to shift with T6, W7, 2+/4++/5+++(vs MW), Halving damage and ObSec.
And what do I give the "loser"?
Not sure i understand your plan. I understand the idea your trying. Warbiker Warboss for bullying and quick engage + Speedwaagh. But the Megaboss, is it like truckboy to reach and contest point? Because if it is you lose ObSec, if not how many points is this? Because he will be foot slogging all the way so barely will see combat and will fall into Gazz category.. or is your army foot slogging too? You see what i mean?
ave yet to try evil sunz hogs but I think with a regular waaagh they are the best. You can really cover quite some distance then charge, and they punch fine they don’t really need to be snakebite imho, but that will depend on the army you face.
If you do the maths, the damage output of the Squighogs is higher as Goffs than as Snakebites... Snakebites are slightly tougher, but I would always prefer Goffs because of better buffs for the rest of the army.
Are goffs better though? I Would assume the +1 to wound counters +1 strength and a potential extra attack with a hit roll of 6.
But now that i think about it, maybe that isnt the case
that depends a lot on the map and my opponent. Ive often taken ROD/banners and Stranglehold.
Maybe i would use the secondary that revolves around your warboss killing things? Im not sure. Or maybe the one that revolves around getting more kills during CC than the enemy. I cant really remember which category both secondaries are in so as to whether its possible or not yet.
I was sort of nodding through but for some reason 56 squads of Kommandos (and 49 squads of Storm Boyz and 90~ of the good Buggies) really hit home how skewed things are.
Still, 40 squads of boyz would suggest people are still trying to make use of them.
Telleport them. If you have extra specialist mob, give em big Krumpaz.
You drop in, have 6D6 S5 ap-1/-2 auto hitting shots. That alone will do some serious damage on any but the toughest targets.
Then, you get a 3d6" charge (with strat), that you can reroll. with a 9" charge after deep striking, that is HIGHLY likely to succeed.
Once in combat you get 8 S10 Ap-3 D3 attacks, hitting on twos if you have big krumpaz.
This is great against even the toughest targets.
And while there survivability isnt incredible, for only 200 points this unit provides a back line combat threat that can torch one unit and shred another in combat before the opp can react, and then dealing with 2 dreads isnt trivial and takes away firepower from the rest of the list that needs to be dealt with. Most lists wont be able to have the combat presence on the front line to defend Beastbosses/primary CC, while able to defend their backline from dreads.
The biggest cost I see is the CP. But, as we have discussed, Orks arent really dying for CP, so.... thoughts? In my, to be fair few, games these guys have been awesome. But I dont see them anywhere.
I was sort of nodding through but for some reason 56 squads of Kommandos (and 49 squads of Storm Boyz and 90~ of the good Buggies) really hit home how skewed things are.
Still, 40 squads of boyz would suggest people are still trying to make use of them.
Lack of models painted and built plus lack of models for the newer stuff skews that list a little. It was also pre-faq so I think we might see more warboss on bike. But overall ya it’s squigbuggy, scrapjet, kommando, stormboy, squigboss, wartrike or warboss on bike, Dakkajet spam… and surprisingly (to me at least) kff big Meks. I thought the destroying your kff strat just made that combo overpriced but it works I guess. Also if I don’t see killrigs pop up in a lot of lists I’ll be surprised.
I’m hoping for a decent dreadwaagh or greentide army of renown in the campaign book to add more variety but heck I’d take a beastsnagga theme list if that works too.
Telleport them. If you have extra specialist mob, give em big Krumpaz.
You drop in, have 6D6 S5 ap-1/-2 auto hitting shots. That alone will do some serious damage on any but the toughest targets.
Then, you get a 3d6" charge (with strat), that you can reroll. with a 9" charge after deep striking, that is HIGHLY likely to succeed.
Once in combat you get 8 S10 Ap-3 D3 attacks, hitting on twos if you have big krumpaz.
This is great against even the toughest targets.
And while there survivability isnt incredible, for only 200 points this unit provides a back line combat threat that can torch one unit and shred another in combat before the opp can react, and then dealing with 2 dreads isnt trivial and takes away firepower from the rest of the list that needs to be dealt with. Most lists wont be able to have the combat presence on the front line to defend Beastbosses/primary CC, while able to defend their backline from dreads.
The biggest cost I see is the CP. But, as we have discussed, Orks arent really dying for CP, so.... thoughts? In my, to be fair few, games these guys have been awesome. But I dont see them anywhere.
Scrapjets.. Really that's all i need to say. Cost's 20 less, their faster but can be telly too and have good shooting for all targets and better range.. even decent on melee. If not scrapjets you can get a Kill rigg which is more of the same but a lot better melee and powers... It's just there are better options.. not because they are bad.
Telleport them. If you have extra specialist mob, give em big Krumpaz.
You drop in, have 6D6 S5 ap-1/-2 auto hitting shots. That alone will do some serious damage on any but the toughest targets.
Then, you get a 3d6" charge (with strat), that you can reroll. with a 9" charge after deep striking, that is HIGHLY likely to succeed.
Once in combat you get 8 S10 Ap-3 D3 attacks, hitting on twos if you have big krumpaz.
This is great against even the toughest targets.
And while there survivability isnt incredible, for only 200 points this unit provides a back line combat threat that can torch one unit and shred another in combat before the opp can react, and then dealing with 2 dreads isnt trivial and takes away firepower from the rest of the list that needs to be dealt with. Most lists wont be able to have the combat presence on the front line to defend Beastbosses/primary CC, while able to defend their backline from dreads.
The biggest cost I see is the CP. But, as we have discussed, Orks arent really dying for CP, so.... thoughts? In my, to be fair few, games these guys have been awesome. But I dont see them anywhere.
A grot mega tank can have 7 skorchas if that's what you like. Put it on a teleporter and burn baby burn lol
that depends a lot on the map and my opponent. Ive often taken ROD/banners and Stranglehold.
Maybe i would use the secondary that revolves around your warboss killing things? Im not sure. Or maybe the one that revolves around getting more kills during CC than the enemy. I cant really remember which category both secondaries are in so as to whether its possible or not yet.
I havent thought much about it
You will always find 2 from Shadow op and Battlefield supremacy depending on the map. And in 2 or 3 you can take the mission specific.
But the Great Question of All Questions is the third secondary. Some armies offer you a good target to score Bring/Abhorn… of course. But mostly not. So on 6-7 missions you need to find something.
I have not found anything else then to optimize the list for To The Last, as you suggested in last codex few moths ago. It is still the same.
The only one that seems litle bit a chance is Da Biggest And Da Best - killing by your warlord. But nothing to write home about…
Not sure i understand your plan. I understand the idea your trying. Warbiker Warboss for bullying and quick engage + Speedwaagh. But the Megaboss, is it like truckboy to reach and contest point? Because if it is you lose ObSec, if not how many points is this? Because he will be foot slogging all the way so barely will see combat and will fall into Gazz category.. or is your army foot slogging too? You see what i mean?
Mostly the megaboss is there to be a DSHQ, my plan is such is having him protect my backfield objective.
Not sure i understand your plan. I understand the idea your trying. Warbiker Warboss for bullying and quick engage + Speedwaagh. But the Megaboss, is it like truckboy to reach and contest point? Because if it is you lose ObSec, if not how many points is this? Because he will be foot slogging all the way so barely will see combat and will fall into Gazz category.. or is your army foot slogging too? You see what i mean?
Mostly the megaboss is there to be a DSHQ, my plan is such is having him protect my backfield objective.
I also want to try the obsec deathskull mega armour warboss with da krushin armour. I think he has real play. Also, the 5+++ against MWs for a 1+ 5++ is really good imho.
Might be even better if you have a core or character unit to give that +1 to hit to with his aura, but even without that…
Beardedragon wrote: Maybe i would use the secondary that revolves around your warboss killing things? Im not sure. Or maybe the one that revolves around getting more kills during CC than the enemy. I cant really remember which category both secondaries are in so as to whether its possible or not yet.
I havent thought much about it
The secondary with Warboss killing things is a bit too hard. Killing 5 models while the Warboss only has 5 melee attacks is hazardous, even with the shooting attacks. Eventually with BKK / the Goff bonus / the krushin amour MW/ the Goff relic/... But that's a lot of investment just to ensure 1 secondary.
The secondary with killin more stuff in melee, is nice, I got to try that. If your army is sufficiently melee oriented (not really for buggy spam), you may score every turn.
Beardedragon wrote: Maybe i would use the secondary that revolves around your warboss killing things? Im not sure. Or maybe the one that revolves around getting more kills during CC than the enemy. I cant really remember which category both secondaries are in so as to whether its possible or not yet.
I havent thought much about it
The secondary with Warboss killing things is a bit too hard. Killing 5 models while the Warboss only has 5 melee attacks is hazardous, even with the shooting attacks. Eventually with BKK / the Goff bonus / the krushin amour MW/ the Goff relic/... But that's a lot of investment just to ensure 1 secondary.
The secondary with killin more stuff in melee, is nice, I got to try that. If your army is sufficiently melee oriented (not really for buggy spam), you may score every turn.
It is not a WARBOSS. It should be a WARLORD.
Beastboss on robosaur has by default 5+1 attacks with the uge choppa + 3 attacks with the saur + mortals. All before buffs And has a WARBOSS keyword btw.
But it is stupid to killing the guardsman by Beastboss just to score. That is right. To make this work should be more about finishing vehicles damaged in shooting phase by this warlord. Preferable this Necron Barges that are VEHICLE and CHARACTER.
What I see like a bigger problem is, how to keep him alive and still in the CC every turn. It will be target no.1. Kill him and I can' t score anymore. This is bloody glasscannon secodnary.
So has anyone had a good chance to try out 5 meganob trukkboyz and see how they do yet? Considering it pretty heavily for a local tourney coming up. The manz and trukk are 245pts, so fitting them in requires snipping a few units but I feel like on a terrain heavy board they could do work.
This is what I had come up with at first with the models I had, but I worry I dont have anything tough and punchy that can go into buildings to dislodge something if the kommandos and snikrot go down. Was considering dropping the squig riders, squig nob, and maybe a few kommandos to squeeze in the MANZ and trukk. That or ditch the dakkajet and squig riders. I know big blocks of kommandos arent super popular but being stuck with mono blood axes theyre the best idea I have.
Spoiler:
Blood axes
Outrider 1
Runt Herder: Grot prod, Finkin Cap and I got a plan ladz
Warboss on Warbike: Warlord, Killa Klaw, 'ard as nails
10 gretchin
15 kommandos: nob w/pk
X3 single megatrakk scrapjets
X3 5 man stormboy squads with pk
X2 kannonwagon w/3 big shoota
Blood axes
Outrider 2
Nob on smasha squig
Boss Snikrot: Brutal but kunnin
2 units of 15 kommandos w/ bomb squig and nob w/pk
3 squighog boyz
X2 units of 3 warbikers w/pk
Dakkajet w/ 2 extra supa shoota
Ive got pretty much every competitive unit aside from the new beast snagga kits and squig buggies, and all my stuff is painted as Blood Axes. Im open to other suggestions Im just stuck with blood axes by paint job.
Not sure i understand your plan. I understand the idea your trying. Warbiker Warboss for bullying and quick engage + Speedwaagh. But the Megaboss, is it like truckboy to reach and contest point? Because if it is you lose ObSec, if not how many points is this? Because he will be foot slogging all the way so barely will see combat and will fall into Gazz category.. or is your army foot slogging too? You see what i mean?
Mostly the megaboss is there to be a DSHQ, my plan is such is having him protect my backfield objective.
Ah ok, then I would give to it to the bike, but that's an expensive backline. I generally leave a unit of troops for that. Do you expect infiltration shenanigans? Or the opponent to be able to reach your deploy zone? You could also take a Mega armored mek with KFF and use it for 1 turn defence for HQ
MrMoustaffa wrote: So has anyone had a good chance to try out 5 meganob trukkboyz and see how they do yet? Considering it pretty heavily for a local tourney coming up. The manz and trukk are 245pts, so fitting them in requires snipping a few units but I feel like on a terrain heavy board they could do work.
I have always pulled them from my lists because they were just too many points. With all the other toyz being cheap as chips, it's hard to justify that many points just to punch something really hard. Anyways, I am very interested to hear how they are working out for you, so keep us posted
I don't think meganobz have much play at their current PPM, especially when you add the 70 points from the trukk to the bill. Not enough special sauce, unlike what other codex have so that sort of elite infantry.
It is a nice piece of tech though, with potential.
IMHO if trukkboy manz could also keep the deathskull perks then I would definately consider them for my current army list.
Sadly, GW kinda shafted us on this one, with the "either or" principle of specialised mobs vs klan traits :(
Meganobz are quite good in heavy hitting and they could easily find a room in any kind of lists. Sure there are alternatives but not that many and not everyone playes skew lists with 9 scrapjets . Boyz, nobz, kanz, dreads are all inferior in dealing damage in close combat than meganobz.
I put them in a Forktress BW though, along with 10 boyz/gretchins or 5 burnaboyz in a vehicles based army. Goffs or Big Krumpaz to make them quite killy.
Otherwise I would tellyport them. I'm not really fond of putting a melee unit of 175+ points in a trukk.
I like to play 3-5 from time to time, ether riding in a Kannonwaggon / Boomer or footslogging and hiding behind a LOS blocking ruin near a objective to counter charge stuff that comes out in the open.
Used them as Trukkboys as well.
But they are not that great, I just love the models. Wouldn't take them for tournaments but in semi competitive games they are fine. I just hate the fact they made the killsaw D D3 again - they should have stayed at D2.
With D2 and a 5++ they would have been decent and if trukkboys would keep their culture I'd take them a lot more often.
At least they kept the D+1 strat and 5 of them as Goffs with some buffs and strat support hit really hard.
5 dudes with double saw, 4 CP and Banner/ warboss nearby and maybe even warpath can one-shot 2 knights.
Problem is you need so many points, buff characters und CP to make them good, that it's not really worth it.
- MANz. in Trukk like Trukkboyz lost obsec, because lost clan trait.
- MANz in Trukk are target n.1 = if go second, trukk will be destroied and MANz will be stucked in your deploy.
- if Trukk with MANz destroied, pretty sure one MAN will be slain during disembark. Pretty masive tax!
- kannonwagon needs to sit in the backfield, because if taged in CC than became useless.
- right transport for MANs is Forktress BW. Transport is hard enough to hold. And You can combine them with grots there and if transport destroied, you can
— do emergency disembark and disemabrk MANz 6” away (and slain the grots)
— if transport destroied during shooting, drop the grots in front of MANs and either protect MANs via Grotshield, or simply block the charge againts them. Which is crucial, because without some massive invu, even MANz die fast. They can punch once and have to be the first.
I use MANs regularly and this is the way. Not the best you can do, but the best you can do with MANs.
Tomsug wrote: - MANz. in Trukk like Trukkboyz lost obsec, because lost clan trait.
- MANz in Trukk are target n.1 = if go second, trukk will be destroied and MANz will be stucked in your deploy.
- if Trukk with MANz destroied, pretty sure one MAN will be slain during disembark. Pretty masive tax!
- kannonwagon needs to sit in the backfield, because if taged in CC than became useless.
- right transport for MANs is Forktress BW. Transport is hard enough to hold. And You can combine them with grots there and if transport destroied, you can
— do emergency disembark and disemabrk MANz 6” away (and slain the grots)
— if transport destroied during shooting, drop the grots in front of MANs and either protect MANs via Grotshield, or simply block the charge againts them. Which is crucial, because without some massive invu, even MANz die fast. They can punch once and have to be the first.
I use MANs regularly and this is the way. Not the best you can do, but the best you can do with MANs.
I like the idea of DSMANz, but as you've said they're too costly for what they offer when you consider the trukks as well. I have considered taking them as Krumpas and tellyporting them in and going for an all or nothing charge to brute force something from an objective. But it's a lot of points and CP to lose to a dodgy dice roll.
I have used a min squad of 3 MANZ with kombi skorchas to deepstrike in behind the enemy lines a couple of times, definitely not the most competitive choice but with the skorchas reaching out to 12" now 3 d6str 5 auto hits into one unit and a rerollable charge into another one is a pretty good back field threat. Even if you fail the charge they have to put a decent amount of damage into them which is damage not going into the rest of your army. With 3 aswell even with their chunky bases you can usually find a good spot for them and splitting your opponents attention away from what's racing towards him is never a bad idea
Interesting how BAs ability went from "Useless on Buggies cuz they die to melee." to "Brilliant straterjy!". As BAs ability depends more on survival than defense and Ramshackle shifted rules slightly concerning melee, it seems it wouldn´t have mattered much. Yet suddenly it did. Perceptions I reckon.
Just ordered the new codex, looking forward to some games in the new edition!
Tempted by the squig riding orks, do they synergise well with a pre-beast snaggas army, or do you need to go all-out on beast snaggas to make them work?
some bloke wrote: Just ordered the new codex, looking forward to some games in the new edition!
Tempted by the squig riding orks, do they synergise well with a pre-beast snaggas army, or do you need to go all-out on beast snaggas to make them work?
They work pretty well alongside buggy lists because they provide some of the CC punch that most buggies lack barring the scrapjet. All you need to do is have a separate detachment with them and a Beastboss on Squigosaur and they slot in very easily to any existing army. Just keep in mind they're a lot slower in comparison to your vehicles and that they're pretty fragile even with T6 base.
some bloke wrote: Just ordered the new codex, looking forward to some games in the new edition!
Tempted by the squig riding orks, do they synergise well with a pre-beast snaggas army, or do you need to go all-out on beast snaggas to make them work?
They work pretty well alongside buggy lists because they provide some of the CC punch that most buggies lack barring the scrapjet. All you need to do is have a separate detachment with them and a Beastboss on Squigosaur and they slot in very easily to any existing army. Just keep in mind they're a lot slower in comparison to your vehicles and that they're pretty fragile even with T6 base.
I've found (in my limited testing) that they make for a pretty good beta strike unit, coming in as the hammer blow for units already tied up or weakened by the faster or shooter elements of the list. They do need to be supported by similar toughness or boosting units though, so the list has to be somewhat built around them.
They certainly aren't a unit you can throw into any list and expect them to work, but they're overall a good unit in my opinion.
Thanks for all the advice on the meganobz guys, appreciate it. May just stick with my regular list then and rely on kommandos for rooting out things hiding in buildings. If I can't kill something with 45 kommandos, snikrot, and some stormboyz I guess a few nobs aren't very likely to make a difference either.
Well, when I see the ammount of Deffkilla Wartrikes with Badskull Banner (and Roadkilla and Shockhull…), I have to ask:
How to play with it? Is here anybody who use this and is happy with it? I don' t speak about theorycraft. I speak about the real games.
Because I struggle to make it work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Killrigs and Beastbosses on Robosaurs are available to offer with pictures adn descriptions.
80 mm round and 170 oval base. The last I need to know to finish the conversions!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, after half a year I start to shoot my models and put them on instagram this weekend. So if anyome interested, check #mektomsug
I'd like to know it as well, in my experience the Wartrike is just a tax for being able to declare the Speedwaagh if the biker boss is somehow not available.
170mm looks quite small, but the model is actually longer/wider than that, it has the size of a BW basically, even with a smaller footprint.
Blackie wrote: I'd like to know it as well, in my experience the Wartrike is just a tax for being able to declare the Speedwaagh if the biker boss is somehow not available.
Isn't that just the answer? The trike is kind of meh at 120 points, but people bring it to run a speedwaagh. And as many of the shooty lists are freebooters, they give him the badskull-banna. The trike may not be very killy, but the base is so large, that it can deny ob-sec on a huge chunk of the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Meganobz are quite good in heavy hitting and they could easily find a room in any kind of lists. Sure there are alternatives but not that many and not everyone playes skew lists with 9 scrapjets . Boyz, nobz, kanz, dreads are all inferior in dealing damage in close combat than meganobz.
Really? A 35 points meganob has 3 attacks hitting at 4+ for S10AP3D2. A 40 points kan has 3 attacks hitting at 4+ for S8AP3D3. An 85 points four claw dread has 7 attacks hitting at 3+ for S10AP3D3. They seem pretty comparable to me.
I think they all have the same issue: They absolutely need to get into to close combat to be worth it, and they are too slow and vulnerable to walk there. You can teleport them, but then you are left with a coin-toss for the charge. Maybe advancing them as Evil Sunz acroos the board would make sense, then you would at least not spend on the transport.
But if you just want to trigger the speedwaaagh why not taking a warboss on bike? Larger footprint might be good to deny obj sec (although I think it's a massively overrated ability) but it's also a disadvantage in dealing the mortal wounds by ramming speed + shokk hull since it's hard to charge unless the board is pretty empty.
Blackie wrote: But if you just want to trigger the speedwaaagh why not taking a warboss on bike? Larger footprint might be good to deny obj sec (although I think it's a massively overrated ability) but it's also a disadvantage in dealing the mortal wounds by ramming speed + shokk hull since it's hard to charge unless the board is pretty empty.
Blackie wrote: But if you just want to trigger the speedwaaagh why not taking a warboss on bike? Larger footprint might be good to deny obj sec (although I think it's a massively overrated ability) but it's also a disadvantage in dealing the mortal wounds by ramming speed + shokk hull since it's hard to charge unless the board is pretty empty.
Lack of access to the FW Book or Model?
Absolutely, that is always a thing to consider. But we're talking about tournament lists and competitive players have no problem getting a single model that has been on sale since a decade at least, and I don't think many GTs consider FW stuff illegal.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So has anyone had a good chance to try out 5 meganob trukkboyz and see how they do yet? Considering it pretty heavily for a local tourney coming up. The manz and trukk are 245pts, so fitting them in requires snipping a few units but I feel like on a terrain heavy board they could do work.
This is what I had come up with at first with the models I had, but I worry I dont have anything tough and punchy that can go into buildings to dislodge something if the kommandos and snikrot go down. Was considering dropping the squig riders, squig nob, and maybe a few kommandos to squeeze in the MANZ and trukk. That or ditch the dakkajet and squig riders. I know big blocks of kommandos arent super popular but being stuck with mono blood axes theyre the best idea I have.
Spoiler:
Blood axes
Outrider 1
Runt Herder: Grot prod, Finkin Cap and I got a plan ladz
Warboss on Warbike: Warlord, Killa Klaw, 'ard as nails
10 gretchin
15 kommandos: nob w/pk
X3 single megatrakk scrapjets
X3 5 man stormboy squads with pk
X2 kannonwagon w/3 big shoota
Blood axes
Outrider 2
Nob on smasha squig
Boss Snikrot: Brutal but kunnin
2 units of 15 kommandos w/ bomb squig and nob w/pk
3 squighog boyz
X2 units of 3 warbikers w/pk
Dakkajet w/ 2 extra supa shoota
Ive got pretty much every competitive unit aside from the new beast snagga kits and squig buggies, and all my stuff is painted as Blood Axes. Im open to other suggestions Im just stuck with blood axes by paint job.
I've run 5 many as trukkboyz in 1k games. They ended up more underwhelming than I had originally thought. They just had no good targets. One game was vs knights where the trunk got killed, rolled 2 1s on disembark and got finished off in mellee in one go. In a game vs Marines, they killed 5 primaris guys, got charged by a dread that killed 3 in one go, 2 of them managed to land 3 successful hits that went through (above average and still not close to being enough) even though I used a 2cp strat, they only ended up dealing 5 wounds to ven dread.
And if you analyze the meta, there are likely not many opponents with armies thet many are good against - armies with low amount of high ap weapons, a expensive units without invuls and -1 damage, armies that can't shoot a trukk down or are afraid of t1 alpha strike charge of a unit that can't kill much but tags shooters preventing them from shooting...
All in all, you have to spend 2 cp to make them relevant vs -1 targets. 2 damage and just 3 attacks hitting on 4s is too low. No invul, no deep strike - they are too easy to kill for any weaponry geared towards killing elites and tanks ( and there's too much cheap antitank around).
They're not bad but not good either. Just a mediocre unit that used to be decent but failed in the power creep race.
So yesterday my deathskull war trike worked quite well. Between the 5+ invul, ramshackle, 5+++ against mortals, he couldn’t go down easy.
The Roadkill mortals on the charge, the reroll one of the hits, reroll to wounds, honestly it’s not bad at all. Not great mind you.
I initially took him for the cloud of smoke (because he is untargetable) but as deathskull I think wartrike is ok.
The freebooter bad skull banner version is probably much better, but harder to use as you need to prepare that obsec denying trick carefully.
Grey knights have a very tough match up against our buggy freebooter lists with wasbombs and dakkajets, I saw that in my game yesterday. My deathskull infantry could also snatch his objectives, I felt bad for him.
Sure the tide which grants them dense cover (if they are already in light cover) can delay our first unit kill, but once that first unit goes down the wazbom and dakkajets rain hell on them
MrMoustaffa wrote: So has anyone had a good chance to try out 5 meganob trukkboyz and see how they do yet? Considering it pretty heavily for a local tourney coming up. The manz and trukk are 245pts, so fitting them in requires snipping a few units but I feel like on a terrain heavy board they could do work.
This is what I had come up with at first with the models I had, but I worry I dont have anything tough and punchy that can go into buildings to dislodge something if the kommandos and snikrot go down. Was considering dropping the squig riders, squig nob, and maybe a few kommandos to squeeze in the MANZ and trukk. That or ditch the dakkajet and squig riders. I know big blocks of kommandos arent super popular but being stuck with mono blood axes theyre the best idea I have.
Spoiler:
Blood axes
Outrider 1
Runt Herder: Grot prod, Finkin Cap and I got a plan ladz
Warboss on Warbike: Warlord, Killa Klaw, 'ard as nails
10 gretchin
15 kommandos: nob w/pk
X3 single megatrakk scrapjets
X3 5 man stormboy squads with pk
X2 kannonwagon w/3 big shoota
Blood axes
Outrider 2
Nob on smasha squig
Boss Snikrot: Brutal but kunnin
2 units of 15 kommandos w/ bomb squig and nob w/pk
3 squighog boyz
X2 units of 3 warbikers w/pk
Dakkajet w/ 2 extra supa shoota
Ive got pretty much every competitive unit aside from the new beast snagga kits and squig buggies, and all my stuff is painted as Blood Axes. Im open to other suggestions Im just stuck with blood axes by paint job.
I've run 5 many as trukkboyz in 1k games. They ended up more underwhelming than I had originally thought. They just had no good targets. One game was vs knights where the trunk got killed, rolled 2 1s on disembark and got finished off in mellee in one go. In a game vs Marines, they killed 5 primaris guys, got charged by a dread that killed 3 in one go, 2 of them managed to land 3 successful hits that went through (above average and still not close to being enough) even though I used a 2cp strat, they only ended up dealing 5 wounds to ven dread.
And if you analyze the meta, there are likely not many opponents with armies thet many are good against - armies with low amount of high ap weapons, a expensive units without invuls and -1 damage, armies that can't shoot a trukk down or are afraid of t1 alpha strike charge of a unit that can't kill much but tags shooters preventing them from shooting...
All in all, you have to spend 2 cp to make them relevant vs -1 targets. 2 damage and just 3 attacks hitting on 4s is too low. No invul, no deep strike - they are too easy to kill for any weaponry geared towards killing elites and tanks ( and there's too much cheap antitank around).
They're not bad but not good either. Just a mediocre unit that used to be decent but failed in the power creep race.
i have tried using trukk boys meganobz, and they were underwhelming, the i trukk boyz is the problem here i think
trukk boyz essentially weaken the meganobz too much,
with BIG KRUMPAZ they hit on 2's, with trukk boys they hit on 4's
and the trukk itself just adds 70pts and becomes a target for S8 weapons
2 Trukkboyz Meganobz and a trukkboy boss perhaps? You're going double down on the whole deal. But, well it'd be a fun first turn punch.
I will say, I don't think any sort of trukkboyz is meant to be super killy for it's points. More it's meant to be a first turn distraction to my mind. Screw up your opponents first turn, maybe stop some shooting units from doing much.
cody.d. wrote: 2
I will say, I don't think any sort of trukkboyz is meant to be super killy for it's points. More it's meant to be a first turn distraction to my mind. Screw up your opponents first turn, maybe stop some shooting units from doing much.
Yeah. I use them like this and it works. Blocking the movement. Tag in CC,. Die fast. Don' t care about the damage. Just cheapest bodies able to stand in front of enemy deploy T1 and come again in second wave in T2 and mess his plans.
I think they're a solid option but they're not really that cheap though. 10 trukk boyz or 3 trukk meganobz are 160-175 points if we count the trukk. And they consume a specialist mob slot.
Kommandos and stormboyz are much cheaper and can be used for the same role.
Got the new codex, and I'm still thinking hard on the idea of shooty deff dreads.
125pts (unless battlescribe's wrong, not got the dex to hand right now) gets you a deff dread with 4 kustom megablastas. this sounds seriously fun to me - you'll average 2 shots per gun (unless shooting 6+ models, in which case it's 3 per gun) for 8 shots, that's circa 3 hits, with S8, D6 damage and good AP. If you're shooting at a unit of 6+ (typically high wound high toughness good save infantry, for maximum effect) you can expect 4 hits and might get more, and probably will kill 3 of them off. If you get lucky, it can wipe an expensive tank out in one round of shooting (before disappearing to enemy return fire).
Now if I up that to 375pts for 3 of them, we're looking at expecting 9 KMB hits per turn, it potential for much more, which can delete a lot of big scaries. Not sure which kulture will work best with them (I've not read them all thoroughly enough to remember them yet) but I really do think these will have a good place for a moderately durable shooty unit. Maybe drop 1 KMB for a klaw for some melee flexibility, but then do I really expect them to make it past the enemies first or second shooting phase? better to put out damage whilst they're alive, I think!
3 of them shooting a unit of 6+ models fires 36 shots, which is terrifying. Elite infantry will be wiped out, no problem!
some bloke wrote: Got the new codex, and I'm still thinking hard on the idea of shooty deff dreads.
1) The best kultur for shooty dreads would be freebooters, or deathskulls.
2) To me, shooty dreads looks like one of the worst options in the codex. Mek gunz, dakka jets, telly porta big mek, and any of the buggies are just a LOT better. If you want to use deff dreads you should keep them cheap, and get them into close combat as soon as possible.
Blackie wrote: I think they're a solid option but they're not really that cheap though. 10 trukk boyz or 3 trukk meganobz are 160-175 points if we count the trukk. And they consume a specialist mob slot.
Kommandos and stormboyz are much cheaper and can be used for the same role.
On the topic of first turn Kommando charges (and BA with a carpark of Scrapjets). Anyone used Snikrot? I reckon he could be something of a tarpit.
The 8th edition Ork Codex had some good flyers. The dakkajet in particular stood out. In 9th edition it was good for harasing units of objectives. It was cheap enough to throw away, and it could assassinate heroes by making it hard to screen.
What are your opinions about it?
Is the new dakkajet any good?
But what I really wnat to know is get some opinions on the SM flyers? Everybody I have talked to have no or little experiences with it. And the cheap one (165) do have some of the abilaties of the dakkajet or serves the same purpose. They are called the stormtallon gunship and stormhawk intersceptor. As far as I know, Ork players are the only once who could have an informed opinion on it.
I wonder if GW realizes how stupid this is for their bottom line? I'm going to hold onto my models because I put the effort into painting/assembling and moving the dam things across this country several times. But I bet you a host of other players are going to get rid of their extras that GW just arbitrarily decided you couldn't bring to a game anymore. And in 6 months GW is going to wonder why Ork sales have dipped in Mek Gunz, Stormboyz, Warbikes and any other units they artificially limited in regards to unit size.
They aren't selling much mek guns these days anyway. The kit is...how many years old? After 3 MONTHS after release average GW kit is pretty much done for sales and rest is trickle sale.
There's reason why GW keeps pumping out new kits so fast. Their sales depends on those. No releases, no sales.
Blackie wrote: I think they're a solid option but they're not really that cheap though. 10 trukk boyz or 3 trukk meganobz are 160-175 points if we count the trukk. And they consume a specialist mob slot.
Kommandos and stormboyz are much cheaper and can be used for the same role.
Yeah, could be cheaper…
No, Kommandos and Stormboyz cannot do the same.
Kommandos stand where you put them. They are slow.
Stormboyz are just 12+ advance. Not fast enough to charge T1. Sometimes, you need to charge to tag to block shooting/moving.
Kommandos and Stormboyz are 5. A huge ammount of units is 5. 5 obsec…. 10obsec is better 10 Boyz even without buff do about 20 hits 4/-1/1. This kills a lot of GEQ. This annihilate 10man squad (with small help of their morale pretty sure). This could be good. 5kommandos/stormboyz cannot do that.
But yeah, could be cheaper. But can two scrapjets (same price +/-) do the same? No. They do something different.
Kommandos stand where you put them. They are slow.
Stormboyz are just 12+ advance. Not fast enough to charge T1. Sometimes, you need to charge to tag to block shooting/moving.
Kommandos and Stormboyz are 5. A huge ammount of units is 5. 5 obsec…. 10obsec is better 10 Boyz even without buff do about 20 hits 4/-1/1. This kills a lot of GEQ. This annihilate 10man squad (with small help of their morale pretty sure). This could be good. 5kommandos/stormboyz cannot do that.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
That is right. Kommandos however die before do enything if you go second. So it' s maybe the waste of the points. Or maybe not.. depends… at least, they have a good save.
Stormboyz in squad of 10 - well - deifnitely not able to charge T1, cost 110p and has no protection. Trukkboyz are protected by trukk, kommandos by cover.
All of this depends heavily on your gameplan. What do what and why. Non of these 3 units is uterly wrong. All good for scoring primaries, secondaries and blocking movement/control table. Non of them deal a significant damage except killing some GEQ.
On the other side, MANz in Trukk imho are wrong, because what was said before. These cannot do well anything of what metioned above. And their damage potential is low per point in comparison with other damage dealing units like scrapjets. Plus they tend to be dead before do anything.
The 8th edition Ork Codex had some good flyers. The dakkajet in particular stood out. In 9th edition it was good for harasing units of objectives. It was cheap enough to throw away, and it could assassinate heroes by making it hard to screen.
What are your opinions about it?
Is the new dakkajet any good?
But what I really wnat to know is get some opinions on the SM flyers? Everybody I have talked to have no or little experiences with it. And the cheap one (165) do have some of the abilaties of the dakkajet or serves the same purpose. They are called the stormtallon gunship and stormhawk intersceptor. As far as I know, Ork players are the only once who could have an informed opinion on it.
The first post in the thread has good thoughts on various Ork units in 9th. Dakkajet is a powerful pick for a lot of lists, the Wazbom is also quite deadly but very expensive and not that durable. Neither of the bombers are much worth talking about imo, particularly the Blitza-Bommer.
I'm not sure why you think Ork players would have a more informed opinion on Space Marine flyers than Space Marine players would?
But I have yet to talk to anyone who has actually used a SM flyer in a game of 9th. The general consensus is that they will die to fast, they are to exspensive, or that it will not do enough.
As far as I can tell Orks are the only faction that runns flyers with some regularety. Having met them I know how hard they are to play against. Flyers provide a whole lot that is not obvius at first glance.
Beeing on all table quarters, gunning down troops holding objective, threatening or screw up caharcter possisions (flyers make for great assassins) deny deep strike. And unless your opponent has 36 or 48 anti tank weapons they can usualy stay alive and just be bothersome.
I would trust an experienced ork player more when it comes to juding flyers then I would trust someone who has never used one in 9th edition.
I do however think the dakkajet far superior to the SM flyers. Worse armour save, but it has more wounds, and more attacks. As it degenerate in BS it is not a huge drop of as it stil shoot like crazy.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
That is right. Kommandos however die before do enything if you go second. So it' s maybe the waste of the points. Or maybe not.. depends… at least, they have a good save.
Stormboyz in squad of 10 - well - deifnitely not able to charge T1, cost 110p and has no protection. Trukkboyz are protected by trukk, kommandos by cover.
All of this depends heavily on your gameplan. What do what and why. Non of these 3 units is uterly wrong. All good for scoring primaries, secondaries and blocking movement/control table. Non of them deal a significant damage except killing some GEQ.
On the other side, MANz in Trukk imho are wrong, because what was said before. These cannot do well anything of what metioned above. And their damage potential is low per point in comparison with other damage dealing units like scrapjets. Plus they tend to be dead before do anything.
People use kommandos to control the board. I mean like every single tournament list has at least 2 min squads of them. They almost never die before they do something. They prevent the other player from scouting, or redeploying closer. They can hold mid board objectives and they are actually one of our most durable infantry units considering they are still fairly cheap t5 3+ save in cover units. I mean I’ve seen them with or without the cheap 5pt powerklaw and I’ve seen a few 10x man units as well, but the most common is the 50pt min squad. If you are looking for trukk boys or kommandos or stormboys to provide some type of meaningful melee rush unfortunately that tactic isn’t the best right now. Your best bet is the triple patrol, kommando, stormboy, 3x trukk boy spam list and that isn’t going to win any tournaments either.
Stormboys are also used frequently mostly to play the objective grabbing game and use thier fast flight movement to avoid line of sight.
Do grey knights get to redeploy after knowing who has first turn, unlike blood axe, who redeploy before ? Is my friend right and are orks screwed on this (our codex feels superior overall so it wouldn’t be unfair at all honestly).
Just seems like both the GK ability and ours is worded the same way, but I don’t have the exact GK wording under my eyes
Or has the FAQ made all these abilities the same, and great like the ultramarine one ?
Absolutely, by about 20pts. They are already about 20pts cheaper than the Dark Eldar Raiders but are slower, don't have fly, significantly less durable and their only weapon is so much worse that its hilarious. The problem is, that if you made trukkz 50pts you run the risk of Ork players putting everything into a trukk and flooding the board with cheap T6 wounds. And surprising me not the least Ramshackle is not nearly as good as everyone thought it was going to be. Definitely annoys the handful of heavy bolters and D2 rando shots I get hit with but otherwise its just melta and similar weapons which burn right through ramshackle.
cody.d. wrote: 2
I will say, I don't think any sort of trukkboyz is meant to be super killy for it's points. More it's meant to be a first turn distraction to my mind. Screw up your opponents first turn, maybe stop some shooting units from doing much.
Yeah. I use them like this and it works. Blocking the movement. Tag in CC,. Die fast. Don' t care about the damage. Just cheapest bodies able to stand in front of enemy deploy T1 and come again in second wave in T2 and mess his plans.
Maff time. assuming 9 trukkboyz and a naked Nob. That is 36 attacks from the Boyz during a WAAAGH turn. 24 hits, against T4 thats 12 wounds and against a Marine 3+ that is 6dmg or 3 dead Marines. Nob swings and gets 6 attacks (3 base, +1 waaagh, +2 for 2 choppas). 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.33dmg vs Marines. so you kill 3.6ish Marines, or about 75ish points worth of intercessors, for the cost of 160pts, that isn't a bad turn 1 return, and then the enemy has to deal with them because they are annoyingly efficient once in your opponents lines, so you've forced the opponent to lose a round of shooting with whatever unit you hit, force them to prioritize a unit of boyz and then they have to deal with the trukk in their midst or face another turn of lost shooting from something shooty. It's not game breaking return on investment, but its not bad, and for a troops tax its ok. I still argue that Trukkboyz shouldn't lose their kulture.
Blackie wrote: I think they're a solid option but they're not really that cheap though. 10 trukk boyz or 3 trukk meganobz are 160-175 points if we count the trukk. And they consume a specialist mob slot.
Kommandos and stormboyz are much cheaper and can be used for the same role.
Agreed. I max out on those 2 units though for Alpha strike potential, so its nice to have more threats coming turn 1 that your opponent has to think about.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
That is right. Kommandos however die before do enything if you go second. So it' s maybe the waste of the points. Or maybe not.. depends… at least, they have a good save.
Stormboyz in squad of 10 - well - deifnitely not able to charge T1, cost 110p and has no protection. Trukkboyz are protected by trukk, kommandos by cover.
I played a game where I went 2nd and had 2 units of kommandos get hit...both survived. If they are in cover you have to remember that they are effectively T5 with a 3+ save for next to nothing in points. They are DAMN HARD to shift, and if the opponent uses heavier weapons to get through that armor, it usually has 2+ dmg which is wasted on Boyz. To kill a unit of 10 Kommandos in Cover requires about 150 shots. 150 shots, 100 hits, 33 wounds, 11 failed saves which kills the 9 kommandos and 1 nob. If you use Heavy Bolters because reasons, its 60 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds and 10 failed saves. That is a lot of dakka to kill 120ish points of Orkz.
Also, Stormboyz are absolutely a turn 1 charge unit. 12 movement, 6 advance, you are now 18' across the board, during a WAAAAGH turn you can then charge, which if hte enemy deployed close to the line is an average charge of 6' if the No mans land is 24, some are only 18, and some are even smaller.
Kommandos stand where you put them. They are slow.
Stormboyz are just 12+ advance. Not fast enough to charge T1. Sometimes, you need to charge to tag to block shooting/moving.
Kommandos and Stormboyz are 5. A huge ammount of units is 5. 5 obsec…. 10obsec is better 10 Boyz even without buff do about 20 hits 4/-1/1. This kills a lot of GEQ. This annihilate 10man squad (with small help of their morale pretty sure). This could be good. 5kommandos/stormboyz cannot do that.
But yeah, could be cheaper. But can two scrapjets (same price +/-) do the same? No. They do something different.
Kommandos are 6' movement, they start the game 9' from the enemy's deployment zone and during a WAAAGH turn you can advance them before charging if you really need that extra distance. Since they lack shooting threat there really isn't a reason not to do this mind you, that gives you an average movement of 9.5' turn 1 which puts you either on the line of their deployment or slightly over it, at that point you have a 2D6 charge for another average of 7' charge range (slightly longer with ere we go)
On a related note, I played a game this weekend where my Deff Koptas versatility paid dividends. Had them deployed in LOS blocking terrain turn 1 but in easy charge range if they needed to get stuck in. My opponent won the roll off and went first, shooting my kommandos up but failing to kill them outright, more importantly he then used warp trickery to put 2 CC Walkers into range of them where they did a good job but failed to kill them. My Koptas instead of bum rushing in and getting stuck in, instead flew up onto terrain my opponent couldn't reach and proceeded to spend the next 3 turns shooting 6D3 rokkitz into his CC vehicles which were now drastically out of position to deal with the rest of my WAAAGH which went nutz on his army. Those koptas ability to either get stuck in turn 1 and dish out a plethora of attacks or to hang back and lay down covering fire with their Rokkitz is worth their price tag.
SemperMortis - agree with most of what you said. Just few comments:
1.I use 2 units of Trukkboyz and I want more. Exactly because of what you say - my opponnent have to care about them and my buggies and Kannonwagons etc. can enjoy the shooting without disturb. And they are big unit - in fact about 30” line of orks. Plus they kill good. I use them rather on GEQs than MEQs, but you have to take, what table offers you
What a the pitty is, I cannot make Beast Snagga Boyz the Trukkboyz. In my local meta, it seems sometimes like a Necron Club Party and their blody immortals and lychguard are T5…
2. Kommandos - they are slow and you say it. 6”+ advance? Not even able to do Octarius in two consequent turns. Koptas and Stormboyz are fast. Can be on the other side of the turn in a minute. That is fast.
I give the speed pretty high value, because a most of the opponents is slow. Move maybe 8” around the ruins. If they decide to attack on the left flank, they cannot change it during the rest of the battle. Units like Koptas or Stormboyz are 12-14 and FLY = can outmananoeuvre them and that is what counts.
The same with Kannonwagons. They simply HAVE the target to shoot at. 12” move and 60” is massive.
It doesn' t matter what damage any unit can potentialy do. What matters is, whether is able to do it and whether is able to do it in another turn again.
That is the reason why I don' t prefer MANs or MekGunz.
For that the good list needs to be able to create local disbalance in power on our side and do not suffer on the other side.
3. Cannot count with advance+charge if comparing units any more. Because this requiers specific general gamaplan (waagh or G-Waaaagh instead of Speedwaagh).
What’s better nob on smashasquig w/ killchoppa relic OR 3x squigriders…..
Cost is about the same but squigriders has more wounds and attacks vs smashasquigs mortal wounds and better attacks… goff clan of that makes a difference in decision.
There really is no reason to run a Hunta Rig over a Kill Rig.
Its barely more expensive for access to some relics (note that its locked to a specific trait and only can use certain relics), psyker abilities, and an extra gun.
The Hunta Rig has +5 transport. Who cares, snaggas dont benefit from going to 15 and if youre running a Rig you probably have a Squigboss or Bikerboss or Trike so no boss in it either.
They literally have the same weapons other than the psyker tower.
I mean, I still wanna have at least one. But, yeah at the moment Killrigs are pretty awesome for the amount they do. Especially considering their shooting is curiously accurate when you target big stuff. Beastsnaggas proccing on ranged and CCWs.
3 x deff dreads with 4 klaws each with big krumpas specialist mob tellyported in.
Good idea or not?
I'd say yes it's decent. But the big question is, what do you expect the board to look like by the time you can TP them in? The more your opponent controls the board, the worse off the dreads will be when you have to wedge them into whatever gaps allow.
And would it be more worthwhile to have them as Goffs? Is the chance to proc extra attacks worth hitting on 2s?
addnid wrote:OK so from I was told, post FAQ,
- GK + ultramarines redeploy after "who has 1st turn" is decided
- Blood axe redeploy before.
I guess we are less kunnin than our transhuman "friends"
That sucks, figures marines just get a straight up better version of our ability. Curious whats worded differently on theirs so they get to redeploy after they know whose first.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
That is right. Kommandos however die before do enything if you go second. So it' s maybe the waste of the points. Or maybe not.. depends… at least, they have a good save.
Stormboyz in squad of 10 - well - deifnitely not able to charge T1, cost 110p and has no protection. Trukkboyz are protected by trukk, kommandos by cover.
All of this depends heavily on your gameplan. What do what and why. Non of these 3 units is uterly wrong. All good for scoring primaries, secondaries and blocking movement/control table. Non of them deal a significant damage except killing some GEQ.
On the other side, MANz in Trukk imho are wrong, because what was said before. These cannot do well anything of what metioned above. And their damage potential is low per point in comparison with other damage dealing units like scrapjets. Plus they tend to be dead before do anything.
Im gonna try three 15 strong units of kommandos just because I have the models. I dont really expect them to kill a lot but I do expect them to be a pain for the opponent to shift once you hit that threshold of 45 plus snikrot. If the opponent goes all in on killing them I have a relatively unmolested gunline of kannonwagons and scrapjets with some bikers and stormboyz to grab objectives. If they ignore the kommandos, I can push them up and start swarming things. They can even threaten vehicles with bomb squigs and the tankbusta bomb strat as well as klaws and maybe the breacha ram. Its only two attacks but S7 ap2 D2 seems pretty decent for 5pts if Im planning on melee anyways. I think if you threw a bomb squig, tankbusta bomb, and all the melee attacks, you could probbaly drop some decently tough vehicles in a single turn, especially if you focus fired all 3 squads bomb squigs into a single target somehow.
I dont expect it to get me top table but I think itll do ok, especially as blood axes. I will say though that I would only do a 15 ork squad when I plan on taking as many as possible. If I only had 15 kommandos Id run them as 3 units of 5 before Id run a single 15 man squad. Once I get a couple games with them next week Ill let people know how it did, especially going second. Im hoping the stormboyz, deff koptaz, and bikes can cover the objective role the kommandos normally cover, but we'll see.
3 x deff dreads with 4 klaws each with big krumpas specialist mob tellyported in.
Good idea or not?
That depends on whether they make the charge or not. If all three make the 9 inch charge, then its amazing. But its a big gamble.
An alternative would be to tellyport 5-6 kans (with no upgrades), and then use the Ramming Speed stratagem to make the charge. Ramming speed is less effective on the dreads, because they split up when they they hit the table. On the other hand, two kans have less damage output in melee than a single 4-klaw dread.
3 x deff dreads with 4 klaws each with big krumpas specialist mob tellyported in.
Good idea or not?
3 deffdreads are not an army. It' s one small unit. You mean 3x3deffdreads?
Fun game? Yeah, why not.
Competitive? No.
Two weeks ago I had a game againts some Grey Knight or what type Hummie it was. Tons of slow killy CC units and tons of deepstrike and Teleports during the game for moving with them. His plan was obvious - spam me with 9” charges and some of them pass.
So I spread my army and screen so, he had to deepstrike in his own deploy in turn 2, because there was no other place on the board. Failed couple of charges and succesfully charged with his 250p unit my kommandos for 50p and killed them. And than it takes 2 turns until he marched to some objectives and into some CC. Meanwhile I was shooting him down.
Good armies can screen well and force you to drop home.
9” charges even with Ramming speed is not sure. Without Ramming speed it is pure lotery. You cannot build a game plan about it.
The last deepstrike plan that works I saw was couple of years ago some another hummie that was able to drop 2 squads of 10 terminators 6” from my units. That was bloody hard to screen and he could be pretty sure he pass one of two 6” charges and 10 shield terminators was so gak damn hard to kill and so many models, they simply occupied the field and press me out.
Thinking about a tournament list with 3-4 Scrapjets, 5 Squigbuggies, 2 Squigbosses, 1 Wartrike, 1 Mek, 2 x 5 Stormboys and 2 x 5 Kommandos, 10 gretchin plus two Killrigs.
Wanna go for Blood Axe Buggies, Death Skulls Stormboys / Kommandos and auxiliary Mozrog.
Would you rather take the Rigs as BA for flexibility or as DS for the rerolls or go for one each?
Also I think Deathkilla Wartrike as Warlord for the Speedwaaagh, or should I try to go for a regular Waaagh and make 1 Squigboss Warlord?
Grotrebel wrote: Thinking about a tournament list with 3-4 Scrapjets, 5 Squigbuggies, 2 Squigbosses, 1 Wartrike, 1 Mek, 2 x 5 Stormboys and 2 x 5 Kommandos, 10 gretchin plus two Killrigs.
Wanna go for Blood Axe Buggies, Death Skulls Stormboys / Kommandos and auxiliary Mozrog.
Would you rather take the Rigs as BA for flexibility or as DS for the rerolls or go for one each?
Also I think Deathkilla Wartrike as Warlord for the Speedwaaagh, or should I try to go for a regular Waaagh and make 1 Squigboss Warlord?
Why Mozrog as an aux? You are essentially paying 1 CP to skip troops and lose his culture. I would either re-arrange your army into two outriders and pay 2 more CP or get a second unit of gretchin.to keep the culture.
I'm not sure anything would want/be able to lock a killrig in combat, plus the DS trait also provides protection against perils.
Kill rig also is nice as freebooter, could carry badskull banner with huge footprint and has auto-hit/ built- in +1 to hit against vehicles to help trigger the culture...
Do we know if/when the contents of the new Ork Combat Patrol will be released separately?
So that we can get the following units:
- New Boyz
- Mega Warboss
- Deffkoptas
Bonde wrote: Do we know if/when the contents of the new Ork Combat Patrol will be released separately?
So that we can get the following units:
- New Boyz
- Mega Warboss
- Deffkoptas
Currently there are no known plans for that. Your best bet is probably buying single sprues off ebay or similar platforms.
Bossdoc wrote: Kill rig also is nice as freebooter, could carry badskull banner with huge footprint and has auto-hit/ built- in +1 to hit against vehicles to help trigger the culture...
Well, I 'm not sure freebota trait is such a miracle on Killrig. In shooting phase, it could be the difference +/- one hit with dmg 2 or 3. Maybe two hits in melee with dmg 1-3. And you are not sure, you tigger it.
The power of Killrig is, that it deals a serious damage in 3 different phases, incl bunch of mortal wounds, is fast, hard and if you kill it, 10 obsec Beastboyz jumps out. That is pretty complex set of abilities supporting himself.
This is not compatible so much with freebota trait /per phase. Combination with Banner is however great.
I see bigger potential in DS - as Jidmah point out the 5+++ againts mortals + rerols are sure in every phase. That is a pretty synergy with multiphase rule set of the Killrig.
And I gonna definitely try the ES because of the difference in alphacharge.
Bonde wrote: Do we know if/when the contents of the new Ork Combat Patrol will be released separately? So that we can get the following units: - New Boyz - Mega Warboss - Deffkoptas
Currently there are no known plans for that. Your best bet is probably buying single sprues off ebay or similar platforms.
I bought my warboss in mega armor that way, from ebay
No sucesfull orks on LGT but couple of victories around. And one of them is triple killtank goff list and another one is built around the Gargantuan Squiggoth.
Which makes me thinking about tripple killrig goff list, but I' m really not sure about this idea…
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is interesting is, the first part of the goonhammer article. Most of the sucesfull list aims to 100VP.
Which is a missery for orks. In any mission, we find 2 secondaries we can score. If we skip the Octarius data (max 12VP), it is significantly harder. But let' s say, we can do it.
But the third? If the mission and opponent do not offer you some, you suck. And the top lists offer you nothing. On the other side, we offer max on some secodnary almost always.
We can discuss how many hits or wounds per point some of our units can do, but it' s all bullgak face to the fact, we are unable to score 100 on top competitive level.
Except the way to smash opponent of the table before he scores 100. And I' m not sure, we can do it to some armies….
Tomsug wrote: No sucesfull orks on LGT but couple of victories around. And one of them is triple killtank goff list and another one is built around the Gargantuan Squiggoth.
Which makes me thinking about tripple killrig goff list, but I' m really not sure about this idea…
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is interesting is, the first part of the goonhammer article. Most of the sucesfull list aims to 100VP.
Which is a missery for orks. In any mission, we find 2 secondaries we can score. If we skip the Octarius data (max 12VP), it is significantly harder. But let' s say, we can do it.
But the third? If the mission and opponent do not offer you some, you suck. And the top lists offer you nothing. On the other side, we offer max on some secodnary almost always.
We can discuss how many hits or wounds per point some of our units can do, but it' s all bullgak face to the fact, we are unable to score 100 on top competitive level.
Except the way to smash opponent of the table before he scores 100. And I' m not sure, we can do it to some armies….
Why Goff kill tanks? While they have CC i wouldnt say thats their strength. Unless its for transporting goff units, but.. yea
looking at his list, he has either cavalry or infantry outside of those killtanks, quite a few of which are meganobz.
Theyre goff for transport capability. He's abusing the fact that Killtanks are primarily just steel walls on treads, technically theyre not that strong offensively theyre just laughably durable for their cost range. Also big footprints so im guessing his cavalry was hiding behind them, so the ONLY thing that could get shot was using indirect fire on cavalry (T6) or hitting the tanks (T8), the KFF mek sitting outside to start with.
Thats not something you can alpha strike.
Killtanks transport 20? ( think it was 20) models, but all transports cant transport mix clans except flashgitz. So either he hoofs his goffs or sacrifices a relatively minor boost for the killtanks being badmoonz or deathskullz.
i like this guy. He thinks like me with his lists lol.
Using Killtanks as durable blocks is a decent enough battleplan. About 10 points per T8 3Sv wound is a nice enough exchange. A bit of auto healing and the potential to reduce damage is just icing. Goffs gives an okay bump of extra damage in CC. But if you're pushing the durability of the killtanks wouldn't you go Blood axe for the cover buff at long range? I guess they'd also work well in a freebootaz list to proc the trait.
Stormboyz and Kommandos can be played in units of 10 . Stormboyz also have fly which might help to bypass some terrain or other units, even enemy screeners maybe, while trukks (and boyz) have to find a clear path in front of them.
That is right. Kommandos however die before do enything if you go second. So it' s maybe the waste of the points. Or maybe not.. depends… at least, they have a good save.
Stormboyz in squad of 10 - well - deifnitely not able to charge T1, cost 110p and has no protection. Trukkboyz are protected by trukk, kommandos by cover.
All of this depends heavily on your gameplan. What do what and why. Non of these 3 units is uterly wrong. All good for scoring primaries, secondaries and blocking movement/control table. Non of them deal a significant damage except killing some GEQ.
On the other side, MANz in Trukk imho are wrong, because what was said before. These cannot do well anything of what metioned above. And their damage potential is low per point in comparison with other damage dealing units like scrapjets. Plus they tend to be dead before do anything.
Im gonna try three 15 strong units of kommandos just because I have the models. I dont really expect them to kill a lot but I do expect them to be a pain for the opponent to shift once you hit that threshold of 45 plus snikrot. If the opponent goes all in on killing them I have a relatively unmolested gunline of kannonwagons and scrapjets with some bikers and stormboyz to grab objectives. If they ignore the kommandos, I can push them up and start swarming things. They can even threaten vehicles with bomb squigs and the tankbusta bomb strat as well as klaws and maybe the breacha ram. Its only two attacks but S7 ap2 D2 seems pretty decent for 5pts if Im planning on melee anyways. I think if you threw a bomb squig, tankbusta bomb, and all the melee attacks, you could probbaly drop some decently tough vehicles in a single turn, especially if you focus fired all 3 squads bomb squigs into a single target somehow.
I dont expect it to get me top table but I think itll do ok, especially as blood axes. I will say though that I would only do a 15 ork squad when I plan on taking as many as possible. If I only had 15 kommandos Id run them as 3 units of 5 before Id run a single 15 man squad. Once I get a couple games with them next week Ill let people know how it did, especially going second. Im hoping the stormboyz, deff koptaz, and bikes can cover the objective role the kommandos normally cover, but we'll see.
Math Hammer Time. If you are Goff and take 15 kommandos, (14 and PK nob) you get 56 attacks on a WAAAGH turn from the boyz at S5 Ap-1 That works out to 46.6 hits (remember, goff, exploding 6s) if you use the Distraction grot against a T8 3+ vehicle you end up doing..... 11.6dmg from just the boyz. The PK Nob swings at 4 attacks on PK for 3.3 hits, he is wounding on 2s so 2.77 wounds and against a 3+ its 4.6ish dmg total. so you end up doing 16ish dmg from a 15 strong Kommandos unit against T8 3+, and that is without a breacha ram and without the Bomb squig or Tankbusta Strat.
Personally, I prefer 10 to minimize Morale/Blast rules but if you want to run the extra models that is fine as well But yeah, the main point I am making is that they are absolute beat sticks in CC. They are just significantly better boyz for a tiny amount more. One of the biggest down sides to boyz is that even at T5 they aren't durable because of the 6+ save, but kommandos can hang out in cover and enjoy a 3+ save And the pure agony an opponent has trying to shift a cheap T5 3+ save model is just the best thing in the world.
Grotrebel wrote: Thinking about a tournament list with 3-4 Scrapjets, 5 Squigbuggies, 2 Squigbosses, 1 Wartrike, 1 Mek, 2 x 5 Stormboys and 2 x 5 Kommandos, 10 gretchin plus two Killrigs.
Wanna go for Blood Axe Buggies, Death Skulls Stormboys / Kommandos and auxiliary Mozrog.
Would you rather take the Rigs as BA for flexibility or as DS for the rerolls or go for one each?
Also I think Deathkilla Wartrike as Warlord for the Speedwaaagh, or should I try to go for a regular Waaagh and make 1 Squigboss Warlord?
Why Mozrog as an aux? You are essentially paying 1 CP to skip troops and lose his culture. I would either re-arrange your army into two outriders and pay 2 more CP or get a second unit of gretchin.to keep the culture.
I'm not sure anything would want/be able to lock a killrig in combat, plus the DS trait also provides protection against perils.
Well I thought that first SB Trait would not matter anyway but yeah, that +1 to wound might be worth taking another unit of gretchin.
But for 3 Squigbosses / 2 Squigbosses + 1 Trike I need 3 detachments - so I thought Mozrog with his natural 4++ plus souped up Squig is worth it even without trait. Alternative would be a second no name Squigboss with some more gear. (Cheaper but more CP)
But if I skip the 4th Scrapjet, I have 90 points left for 10 more gretchin and some Custom jobs on Trike and Killrig(s).
Good catch btw on the 5+++ on Peril MWs - missed that but would not have been relevant so far.
I really hope the upcoming killrig nerf is just an increase in points, I can live with something like 220-250 but not some mayor profile edits.
But honestly, now that Squiggbosses are available, do we really want to not take 3 of them? (Including Bike Warboss / Trike)
But honestly, now that Squiggbosses are available, do we really want to not take 3 of them? (Including Bike Warboss / Trike)
Obviously the wartrike is there as a buffing/supporting character in buggy lists. He provides smoke cloud cover with his decently sized base, speed Waaagh, high movement and is reasonably bulky out of the box with what is in essence a buggy profile with an invuln save. Treat them like a buggy that wants to be near the action to boost the others, but only moving in for the kill when you know you're going to kill what you charge or be locked into a favourable combat.
I use my Bikerboss as the tip of the spear. Big threat range, allows buggies and bikes to get in a strong alpha charge, hits pretty darn hard with the Killa Klaw and Brutal but Kunning. He allows the scrapjets and bikes to move in to get melee kills after shooting and himself into whatever my opponent has that I really just need dead. The Bikerboss is wholly expendable in my list as long as he kills something beefy and gets the bikes/buggies where they need to be.
Lastly, I use a bulky set up on my Squigboss. Between Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle, he's an absolute brick. He also still hits really hard, but trades speed for the aforementioned bulk. In my opinion, a Squigboss is for either grinding through blocks of bulky infantry with all those attacks and potential mortal wounds, or for sticking in front of something you don't want chewing through your other units and bogging it down.
They all have fairly similar stats, but they each have a slightly different role. All three of them can be built to be the bulky one, the killy one, and the supporting one with the right relics/traits, and with the right list.
This is all my opinion based on my experiences though, so take with as much salt as you'd like!
I'm on the same page as Afrodactyl - wartrike for speedwaaagh! and sniping weakened units, killa klaw biker boss as homing missile to destroy whatever needs to be gone and squigboss set up as brawler/tank that can fight multiple fights without getting downed.
SemperMortis wrote: Math Hammer Time. If you are Goff and take 15 kommandos, (14 and PK nob) you get 56 attacks on a WAAAGH turn from the boyz at S5 Ap-1 That works out to 46.6 hits (remember, goff, exploding 6s) if you use the Distraction grot against a T8 3+ vehicle you end up doing..... 11.6dmg from just the boyz. The PK Nob swings at 4 attacks on PK for 3.3 hits, he is wounding on 2s so 2.77 wounds and against a 3+ its 4.6ish dmg total. so you end up doing 16ish dmg from a 15 strong Kommandos unit against T8 3+, and that is without a breacha ram and without the Bomb squig or Tankbusta Strat.
Personally, I prefer 10 to minimize Morale/Blast rules but if you want to run the extra models that is fine as well But yeah, the main point I am making is that they are absolute beat sticks in CC. They are just significantly better boyz for a tiny amount more. One of the biggest down sides to boyz is that even at T5 they aren't durable because of the 6+ save, but kommandos can hang out in cover and enjoy a 3+ save And the pure agony an opponent has trying to shift a cheap T5 3+ save model is just the best thing in the world.
I guess there are two roles there; alpha strike or tarpit. By a cursory look I´d say tarpit is the better bet as this´ll apply more often. If those 120 points takes some bullets and complete an Orktarius that´s enough for the investment imho.
Playing the BA bouncing buggie list myself and the kommando layer is a neat delaying action to tick Primaries et al. Snikrot has been a decent addition to this vanguard for me. He´s both a tarpit and an alpha striker that cannot be ignored.
Jidmah wrote: I'm on the same page as Afrodactyl - wartrike for speedwaaagh! and sniping weakened units, killa klaw biker boss as homing missile to destroy whatever needs to be gone and squigboss set up as brawler/tank that can fight multiple fights without getting downed.
Squigboss is also the only one, who has a chance to pass Da Biggest and Da Best which is one of two secondaries (with To The Last), that can be selected like the third one if other options fails…
Yeah the Wartrike is excellent for popping Cloud of Smoke if you run a lot of Scrapjets and Warbikers.
If you go for Squigbuggies only the Biker Boss is the better option.
After those two bosses 1 or 2 more Squigbosses are a safe bet in any kind of list imo.
Wartrike + 2 Squigbosses (one tanky & one killy) has been my favourite combination so far.
What works well with Evil Sunz? I was considering taking an ES patrol to get a beastboss with rezmekkas redder paint, but is there anything else? Are there any units that benefit more from ES than the from the other kulturs (specifically Goff, Blood Axe and Death Skullz). I thought about bringing a 4-klaw dread and simply advancing it up the board. Not great, but not awfull either.
pismakron wrote: What works well with Evil Sunz? I was considering taking an ES patrol to get a beastboss with rezmekkas redder paint, but is there anything else? Are there any units that benefit more from ES than the from the other kulturs (specifically Goff, Blood Axe and Death Skullz). I thought about bringing a 4-klaw dread and simply advancing it up the board. Not great, but not awfull either.
I played Deffkoptas a few times to keep them safe with Drive by Dakka - worked well and it's one of our good strats that cost only 1 CP.
Sadly ES overall is one of our worst clans right now, besides the relic there is not much of a reason to take them. Loosing that +1 to charge killed them in combination with most of our assault weapons becoming heavy or dakka weapons.
Only unit that profits from the shooting assault weapons after advancing is the Dragsta, but its still better as DS on average.
All other assault weapons are on units that don't advance anyway (Tellyport Blastajet, Squigbuggies) or have so bad shooting that the buff does not matter at all.
The extra movement is not worth it on any unit if you compare it to the buffs our other clans provide.
You might use it for some kind of footslogging list that wants to clog up the midfield a little faster but honestly,
just do it if you really like red and want to play non-competetive games.
I’m just using the warboss on bike now… (with killaklaw and ard as nails) if the only reason to take the wartrike is the cloud of smoke strat then a unit of multiple scrapjets has a much bigger footprint.
Goff Beastboss w BBK and beasthide is still durable with a ton of str 8 attacks that has a decent chance of connecting with BBK.
And now adding a nob on smashasquig w killchoppa relic as it’s also a decent melee character missle protected by 3-6 squigriders.
pismakron wrote: What works well with Evil Sunz? I was considering taking an ES patrol to get a beastboss with rezmekkas redder paint, but is there anything else? Are there any units that benefit more from ES than the from the other kulturs (specifically Goff, Blood Axe and Death Skullz). I thought about bringing a 4-klaw dread and simply advancing it up the board. Not great, but not awfull either.
Loosing that +1 to charge killed them in combination with most of our assault weapons becoming heavy or dakka weapons.
We barely would have cared about the weapon profile change since anyone running a Speedwaaagh! gets the same effect for the most relevant turn. The overlap between Speedwaaagh! and Evil Sunz is one of my big annoyances with this book.
pismakron wrote: What works well with Evil Sunz? I was considering taking an ES patrol to get a beastboss with rezmekkas redder paint, but is there anything else? Are there any units that benefit more from ES than the from the other kulturs (specifically Goff, Blood Axe and Death Skullz). I thought about bringing a 4-klaw dread and simply advancing it up the board. Not great, but not awfull either.
Regular waagh + ESunz sguig riders (3*4 or 3*5) is great, the threat range is huge. Of course, beastboss with +2 movement and fight last goes along with them. Morale is an issue with sguig riders, to the extent that perhaps the generic +1 CD 6 inch aura is worth considering.
The shoot move shoot strat is good but for vehicules i think other klans are better so...
Interesting [url=https://nightsatthegametable.com/the-alliance-open-warhammer-40k-winning-lists/]list[/] placing third at a local GT. But do the hit modifiers for the kannonwagon and Freebootaz really stack to a +3?
Singleton Mosby wrote: Interesting [url=https://nightsatthegametable.com/the-alliance-open-warhammer-40k-winning-lists/]list[/] placing third at a local GT. But do the hit modifiers for the kannonwagon and Freebootaz really stack to a +3?
Definitely not!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having some BS 4+ heavy weapons like MekGuns or Kannonwagons to trigger Freebota trait seems to be common.
Has there not been a point update on FW units Big Shootas? Cause he played 2 x 3 big shootas and still paid only 170 each.
I´ve been paying those extra points all the time because i thought it´s not intended for them to be free.
They stack, but no matter how high you stack them, a roll cannot ever be modified by more than +-1. The important part is that you get to negate negative modifiers like stratagems or forests with them which have a huge impact on ork shooting.
Bossdoc wrote: Kill rig also is nice as freebooter, could carry badskull banner with huge footprint and has auto-hit/ built- in +1 to hit against vehicles to help trigger the culture...
Well, I 'm not sure freebota trait is such a miracle on Killrig. In shooting phase, it could be the difference +/- one hit with dmg 2 or 3. Maybe two hits in melee with dmg 1-3. And you are not sure, you tigger it.
The power of Killrig is, that it deals a serious damage in 3 different phases, incl bunch of mortal wounds, is fast, hard and if you kill it, 10 obsec Beastboyz jumps out. That is pretty complex set of abilities supporting himself.
This is not compatible so much with freebota trait /per phase. Combination with Banner is however great.
I see bigger potential in DS - as Jidmah point out the 5+++ againts mortals + rerols are sure in every phase. That is a pretty synergy with multiphase rule set of the Killrig.
And I gonna definitely try the ES because of the difference in alphacharge.
I was using the killrig as a deathskulls model.
I like the 5+++ Vs mortal wounds
But I also like access to the WRECKAZ stratagem Incase MONSTER HUNTERZ is un available or in appropriate for some reason
Having lots of +1 to wound Vs vehicles is always welcome
Grotrebel wrote: Has there not been a point update on FW units Big Shootas? Cause he played 2 x 3 big shootas and still paid only 170 each.
I´ve been paying those extra points all the time because i thought it´s not intended for them to be free.
If you aren't told to pay for them separately, its assumed that the cost is baked in already and you can take as many or as little as you want.
Jidmah wrote: They stack, but no matter how high you stack them, a roll cannot ever be modified by more than +-1. The important part is that you get to negate negative modifiers like stratagems or forests with them which have a huge impact on ork shooting.
Thought I was missing something. But you all agree, 3+ isn't possible.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wurrboy on foot casts 1 power, 2 if near several Orks (not gretchin).
Kill Rig casts 2 in general.
Imo, if you want a wurrboy on foot, i'd go Weirdboy. Wurrboy's powers are kinda weird since theyre super short range and/or only benefit beastsnaggas.
Thank you! Yeah on foot it has 12” assault 2 range while on killrig it had 24” assault 1 range.
When you said it only benefit beastsnaggas, is that referring in page 80 or is there something else I missed?
Vineheart01 wrote: Wurrboy on foot casts 1 power, 2 if near several Orks (not gretchin). Kill Rig casts 2 in general.
Imo, if you want a wurrboy on foot, i'd go Weirdboy. Wurrboy's powers are kinda weird since theyre super short range and/or only benefit beastsnaggas.
Thank you! Yeah on foot it has 12” assault 2 range while on killrig it had 24” assault 1 range. When you said it only benefit beastsnaggas, is that referring in page 80 or is there something else I missed?
I just brought kill-rig before study in it… oops.
Wurrboy/killrig has his own power list compared to the Weirdboy. Wurrboy powers are all short range offensive or buffs that wont help non-beastsnaggas, either literally because it calls out beastsnagga or buffs gear that only beastsnaggas have anyway. Roar of Mork // Frazzle // Bitin' Jawz // Beastscent // Squiggly Curse are all offensive, 18" or shorter spells While Spirit of Gork only works on Squig units, which are beastsnaggas.
Thats why i say the Weirdboy is better if youre going to bother with an HQ slot psyker in the first place. Weirdboy powers are a bit more useful right off the bat instead of needing to hoof it for 1-2 turns before they can zap anything. I dont see why you'd ever run a Wurrboy, he just doesnt do much and the HQ slots are kinda contested.
Jidmah wrote: They stack, but no matter how high you stack them, a roll cannot ever be modified by more than +-1. The important part is that you get to negate negative modifiers like stratagems or forests with them which have a huge impact on ork shooting.
Thought I was missing something. But you all agree, 3+ isn't possible.
Only for units which actually have a 4+ BS on their statline and the SJD.
Jidmah wrote: They stack, but no matter how high you stack them, a roll cannot ever be modified by more than +-1. The important part is that you get to negate negative modifiers like stratagems or forests with them which have a huge impact on ork shooting.
Thought I was missing something. But you all agree, 3+ isn't possible.
Only for units which actually have a 4+ BS on their statline and the SJD.
Jidmad is mysterious, but the answer is yes. 3+ is not possible, because BS is 5+ and grot gunner says +1 to hit and freeboota says the same. But you cannot stack it to more than +/- 1. So 2x +1 minus 1 for forest = +1 to hit = 4+ hit
Vineheart01 wrote: Wurrboy on foot casts 1 power, 2 if near several Orks (not gretchin).
Kill Rig casts 2 in general.
Imo, if you want a wurrboy on foot, i'd go Weirdboy. Wurrboy's powers are kinda weird since theyre super short range and/or only benefit beastsnaggas.
Thank you! Yeah on foot it has 12” assault 2 range while on killrig it had 24” assault 1 range.
When you said it only benefit beastsnaggas, is that referring in page 80 or is there something else I missed?
I just brought kill-rig before study in it… oops.
Wurrboy/killrig has his own power list compared to the Weirdboy.
Wurrboy powers are all short range offensive or buffs that wont help non-beastsnaggas, either literally because it calls out beastsnagga or buffs gear that only beastsnaggas have anyway.
Roar of Mork // Frazzle // Bitin' Jawz // Beastscent // Squiggly Curse are all offensive, 18" or shorter spells
While Spirit of Gork only works on Squig units, which are beastsnaggas.
Thats why i say the Weirdboy is better if youre going to bother with an HQ slot psyker in the first place. Weirdboy powers are a bit more useful right off the bat instead of needing to hoof it for 1-2 turns before they can zap anything. I dont see why you'd ever run a Wurrboy, he just doesnt do much and the HQ slots are kinda contested.
Make sense. Bah… look like I need Beast Snagga units to make Kill-Rig useful.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wurrboy on foot casts 1 power, 2 if near several Orks (not gretchin).
Kill Rig casts 2 in general.
Imo, if you want a wurrboy on foot, i'd go Weirdboy. Wurrboy's powers are kinda weird since theyre super short range and/or only benefit beastsnaggas.
Thank you! Yeah on foot it has 12” assault 2 range while on killrig it had 24” assault 1 range.
When you said it only benefit beastsnaggas, is that referring in page 80 or is there something else I missed?
I just brought kill-rig before study in it… oops.
Wurrboy/killrig has his own power list compared to the Weirdboy.
Wurrboy powers are all short range offensive or buffs that wont help non-beastsnaggas, either literally because it calls out beastsnagga or buffs gear that only beastsnaggas have anyway.
Roar of Mork // Frazzle // Bitin' Jawz // Beastscent // Squiggly Curse are all offensive, 18" or shorter spells
While Spirit of Gork only works on Squig units, which are beastsnaggas.
Thats why i say the Weirdboy is better if youre going to bother with an HQ slot psyker in the first place. Weirdboy powers are a bit more useful right off the bat instead of needing to hoof it for 1-2 turns before they can zap anything. I dont see why you'd ever run a Wurrboy, he just doesnt do much and the HQ slots are kinda contested.
Make sense. Bah… look like I need Beast Snagga units to make Kill-Rig useful.
The Kill Rig is useful even without its transport capacity. On average you lose two beasty boyz if the kill rig is destroyed before they disembark, so... I think If you plan on using it as a transport, make it two kill rigs and two transported beasty passenger boyz, so you can really sling forward two of them and hope for the best (that one survives). On a flank for example.
Kill rigs anyway are probably best by pairs, and with regular waagh.
So far I have tried just the one, with nothing in it, and a speedwaagh (so no advance and charge in a turn). Pretty good all the same but when it will receive its 20 point increase, not so much. My list for tomorrow has none, as I replaced it with obsec infantry to play missions better.
I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
First of all, welcome
I doubt that freebootas would solve your problem, because you still need to kill something to get that benefit. When playing 1000 points myself I often find myself in situations where between defensive stratagem, terrain and low ranges I cause a lot of damage to marine opponents but don't kill anything (yet). It is also worth noting that stretching a collection to reach more points than you actually have is always going to backfire on you, as most upgrade aren't actually worth their points and you end up with a massive handicap.
In general, most people don't know ork clans anyways, so feel free to experiment. That said, bad moons aren't vastly worse than other options, so maybe share your list and collection? Maybe we can help to re-arrange some stuff or, worst case, point you towards some things you can buy to improve your army. A rough overview of your opponent's army would also help.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
1) Your Marine friend can run plenty of good stuff at 500 points. Also, in a friendly game, both players are responsible for making the game enjoyable. If his list is too strong, ask him to tone it down. Destroying a beginner with a skew list is easy, and it is lame.
2) Painting lots of models yellow is an absolutely awful experience. You are going to hate it. Compared to that, painting Death Skullz and Goffs is a breeze. Blood Axe can be easy, if you can settle on a good paint scheme. I like Vallejo Russian Uniform for Blood Axe clothes, and I chose a darker green skin basecoat than I would for, say, Goffs.
3) The strongest kulturs right now are Goffs, Blood Axe, and Death skullz. Freebooters are also strong, but they are much stronger in a 2000 points game than in a 1000 points game.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
First of all, welcome
I doubt that freebootas would solve your problem, because you still need to kill something to get that benefit. When playing 1000 points myself I often find myself in situations where between defensive stratagem, terrain and low ranges I cause a lot of damage to marine opponents but don't kill anything (yet).
It is also worth noting that stretching a collection to reach more points than you actually have is always going to backfire on you, as most upgrade aren't actually worth their points and you end up with a massive handicap.
In general, most people don't know ork clans anyways, so feel free to experiment. That said, bad moons aren't vastly worse than other options, so maybe share your list and collection? Maybe we can help to re-arrange some stuff or, worst case, point you towards some things you can buy to improve your army. A rough overview of your opponent's army would also help.
Thanks for the welcome!
In my 1000pt list I ran pretty much all I had which is:-
HQ Warboss in mega armour.
Weirdboy
Infantry
10 Beast snagga boyz (1 thump gun) and nob with power snappa.
10 trukk boyz with slugga and choppa (1 big shoota) + nob with powerclaw
10 shoota boyz (1 rokkit)+ nob
Fast.
3 squighog riders with nob on smasha squig +1 bomb squig.
3 warbikers
3 deffcoptas.
Heavy
1 deffdread with 2 big shootaz, 1 claw, 1 rokkit.
Transport
1 Trukk
I was seriously lacking anti tank and he was trying to shoot me off the board turn 1.
He got first turn, alpha struck with a storm talon taking out most of my beast but most long range shots from vindicator and whirlwind failed.. I managed to get my trukk up the board and engaged his assault intercessors and vindicator (stupid tank choice imo) with trukk boyz who got wiped by the assault intercessors and a character with a storm shield who heroically intervened. deffcoptas swooped and hit his eradicators and
Engaged his redemptor and got wiped. Bikers charged his ATV and tied it up. Squighog boys moved out of LOS then engaged and wiped out his eradicators, deployed bomb squig on redemptor then engaged.
Then it was a stalemate and we ran out of time. Not much else played a part. Shoota boyz, warboss didn’t do much and I was in the process of sending the trukk back for them. I was happy with the squig boyz who actually got kills, didn’t use my deffcoptas correctly, dismayed at how easily my trukk were wiped although happy I got them into CC, I could tie a lot up but couldn’t do much damage. I did manage to da jump some stuff with my weirdboy which was nice.
Storm talon just killed at will and everything I sent at the redemptor got smashed. I’m going from memory so some of the details may not be clear.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
1) Your Marine friend can run plenty of good stuff at 500 points. Also, in a friendly game, both players are responsible for making the game enjoyable. If his list is too strong, ask him to tone it down. Destroying a beginner with a skew list is easy, and it is lame.
2) Painting lots of models yellow is an absolutely awful experience. You are going to hate it. Compared to that, painting Death Skullz and Goffs is a breeze. Blood Axe can be easy, if you can settle on a good paint scheme. I like Vallejo Russian Uniform for Blood Axe clothes, and I chose a darker green skin basecoat than I would for, say, Goffs.
3) The strongest kulturs right now are Goffs, Blood Axe, and Death skullz. Freebooters are also strong, but they are much stronger in a 2000 points game than in a 1000 points game.
Yeah, that’s why I asked for a 500pt game next time round. Hmmm maybe goffs then
gungo wrote: Question is the extra Kustom blasta +1 shot or an extra d3 shots on a mega blasta?
+1 shot because it's one extra attack and not one more additional shooting.
Thanks the reason I ask is this is my final rejigged list was hoping the big Mek would be slightly better shooting potential but he’s at least now able to do more.
Spoiler:
Patrol- klan: Goff
Beastboss on squig- warlord trait:Brutal but kunnin, relic1:beasthide
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
4x squigriders
3x squigriders
Nob on smashasquig w/ killchoppa relic
Killrig- frazzle, spirit of gork
Killrig- frazzle, squiggly curse
Outrider-deathskulls -3cp
Warboss on bike- relic2:killaklaw, bigboss1:ard as nails, -2cp
Bigmek in mega armor w/Kff w x-kustom blasta- obj secured
gungo wrote: Question is the extra Kustom blasta +1 shot or an extra d3 shots on a mega blasta?
+1 shot because it's one extra attack and not one more additional shooting.
Thanks the reason I ask is this is my final rejigged list was hoping the big Mek would be slightly better shooting potential but he’s at least now able to do more.
Spoiler:
Patrol- klan: Goff
Beastboss on squig- warlord trait:Brutal but kunnin, relic1:beasthide
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
4x squigriders
3x squigriders
Nob on smashasquig w/ killchoppa relic
Killrig- frazzle, spirit of gork
Killrig- frazzle, squiggly curse
Outrider-deathskulls -3cp
Warboss on bike- relic2:killaklaw, bigboss1:ard as nails, -2cp
Bigmek in mega armor w/Kff w x-kustom blasta- obj secured
I like the list. I personally would put Ard as Nails on the Squigboss and Brutal but Kunnin on the Bikerboss, but that's my preference. Let us know how you get on with the build.
I like that List, I came up with a very similar one. Just with Mozdreg and 2 more Squigbuggies instead of the Squighog Boys and Gretchin instead of the Beast Snagga Boys for screening and actions.
Had the same combination for the Killrigs 4 powers, but I think I want Squighide tires or shokka Hull on the Killrig with Squiggly Curse.
What about the Dead Shiny Shoota for your BM? It's 6" less range but he has been very decent so far.
Warboss / Wartrike, Squigboss, KFF, 2 x 5 Kommandos, 2 x 5 Stormboys, 2 Killrigs, 3 Scrapjets, and 3 Squigbuggies will be part of a lot of my upcoming lists.
Other strong contenders being the Blasta- & Dakkajet, Squighog Boys and Kannonwaggon + 3 x 1 Mek Gun for Freeboota lists.
But overall I think the Freeboota list is slightly worse than the BA - DS - Goff mixed lists because Freebootas are only really good if you dedicate to it and there are certain matchups where you won't trigger their culture.
Not sure if I want to use one of my detachments just for the Relic (+strat) - it's a neat trick up your sleeve but it's limited.
So far I got to use the banner one turn max and then the Wartrike got killed or I had not enough stuff to make it count.
Sure that's 5 VP less for my opponent, but that's all I got out of it so far - but maybe I just suck at his positioning.
gungo wrote: Question is the extra Kustom blasta +1 shot or an extra d3 shots on a mega blasta?
+1 shot because it's one extra attack and not one more additional shooting.
Thanks the reason I ask is this is my final rejigged list was hoping the big Mek would be slightly better shooting potential but he’s at least now able to do more.
Spoiler:
Patrol- klan: Goff
Beastboss on squig- warlord trait:Brutal but kunnin, relic1:beasthide
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
Beastsnagga x10- on Killrig -obj secured
4x squigriders
3x squigriders
Nob on smashasquig w/ killchoppa relic
Killrig- frazzle, spirit of gork
Killrig- frazzle, squiggly curse
Outrider-deathskulls -3cp
Warboss on bike- relic2:killaklaw, bigboss1:ard as nails, -2cp
Bigmek in mega armor w/Kff w x-kustom blasta- obj secured
I like the list. I personally would put Ard as Nails on the Squigboss and Brutal but Kunnin on the Bikerboss, but that's my preference. Let us know how you get on with the build.
The reason I put BBK on squigboss is with mantle he has 7x str 7 atks on charge with 3 squig bites and goff exploding 6s with the BBK he doesn’t need a relic weapon to be a strong melee threat or horde blender.
Whereas the bikerboss with killaklaw hits hard enough but he only has 5 atks and he doesn’t need BBK to connect with str12 ap-4 dam3 and deathskull reroll.. ard as nails also makes him a little more durable with his 5++ and t7 body.. but ya I’ll have to play to see.. just need to build those units.
I can’t take 4 relics for relic shoota.. and I think the killchoppa on nob is a bigger upgrade then Shoota relic on big Mek especially since deathskull reroll to hit on kmb and having no transport on a slow big Mek means 24in is more valuable. Although I don’t think the 10 points for an extra hit on kmb is the best use of points. I can use them for 2x powerklaw on deathskull kommandos or 2x bomb squigs on squigriders but neither of those will do a lot either.
I’m purposely limiting myself on buggies as I currently have 6 (2x scrapjets) I know as soon as I buy 2-3 more buggies they will get a points hike!!! This includes me proxy my other buggies and using a magnetized battlewagon with weirdboy on turret as my other Killrig.. I try not to chase spam lists as I’ll never paint it in time. Also I’m out of fast attack slots :p but I think 8-9 buggies is ideal in a blood axe detachment.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grotrebel wrote: I like that List, I came up with a very similar one. Just with Mozdreg and 2 more Squigbuggies instead of the Squighog Boys and Gretchin instead of the Beast Snagga Boys for screening and actions.
Had the same combination for the Killrigs 4 powers, but I think I want Squighide tires or shokka Hull on the Killrig with Squiggly Curse.
What about the Dead Shiny Shoota for your BM? It's 6" less range but he has been very decent so far.
Warboss / Wartrike, Squigboss, KFF, 2 x 5 Kommandos, 2 x 5 Stormboys, 2 Killrigs, 3 Scrapjets, and 3 Squigbuggies will be part of a lot of my upcoming lists.
Other strong contenders being the Blasta- & Dakkajet, Squighog Boys and Kannonwaggon + 3 x 1 Mek Gun for Freeboota lists.
But overall I think the Freeboota list is slightly worse than the BA - DS - Goff mixed lists because Freebootas are only really good if you dedicate to it and there are certain matchups where you won't trigger their culture.
Not sure if I want to use one of my detachments just for the Relic (+strat) - it's a neat trick up your sleeve but it's limited.
So far I got to use the banner one turn max and then the Wartrike got killed or I had not enough stuff to make it count.
Sure that's 5 VP less for my opponent, but that's all I got out of it so far - but maybe I just suck at his positioning.
If you had the same psychic powers but no squigriders what did you use spirit of gork on?
That power is a pretty decent damage boost to squigriders especially units of 4-6…. If it wasn’t for the killchoppa on smashasquig nob being as strong as he is by himself. I’d probably take 3x more squigriders instead and have 2 units of 5 riders.
The reason I put BBK on squigboss is with mantle he has 7x str 7 atks on charge with 3 squig bites and goff exploding 6s with the BBK he doesn’t need a relic weapon to be a strong melee threat or horde blender.
Whereas the bikerboss with killaklaw hits hard enough but he only has 5 atks and he doesn’t need BBK to connect with str12 ap-4 dam3 and deathskull reroll.. ard as nails also makes him a little more durable with his 5++ and t7 body.. but ya I’ll have to play to see.. just need to build those units.
They both can fulfill either role really, as I said in an earlier post. I really like BBK on the Squigboss, I just prefer it on the Bikerboss
As I see it, the snazzwagon has no purpose. I mean its a worse unit than the squigbuggy so why Even bother using the snazzwagon?
Both weapons use a str 5, -2ap 2 dmg profile, the snazzwagon has 14 attacks up close but hits on 5s, where as the squig buggy hits on 4s without needing Los.
I fail to see why these two buggies have to overlap with the same profile gun with one being visibly better
They attempted to both make the Squigbuggy actually do something and also make the Snazzwagon less of an inferior Boostablasta.
Issue is it seems whoever worked on those rules didnt talk to the other lol.
Snazzwagon isnt bad, but yeah its definitely the inferior buggy. At least this time its inferior because others are just better instead of inferior because its total garbage by design lol.
Jidmah wrote: Does anyone have a side-by-side comparison between the killrig and the gargantuan squiggoth?
Yeah, it would be really nice if anyone could post exact measurements of a fully built kill rig. The Gargantuan Squiggoth should be way too large, the Kill Rig comes with a 170 mm (knight-sized) base, which is barely large enough to cover the front legs and mouth of the garg squig... My conversion is based on a "normal" squiggoth with parts of the "oil-pump platform" from the killteam terrain in tow, and even that seems slightly too large...
Beardedragon wrote: As I see it, the snazzwagon has no purpose. I mean its a worse unit than the squigbuggy so why Even bother using the snazzwagon?
Both weapons use a str 5, -2ap 2 dmg profile, the snazzwagon has 14 attacks up close but hits on 5s, where as the squig buggy hits on 4s without needing Los.
I fail to see why these two buggies have to overlap with the same profile gun with one being visibly better
I like the Snazzwagon, but I agree that's it's certainly an inferior Squigbuggy at this point. I got some good mileage out of them for a while before I caved and decided to just build some squigbuggies.
I did like that it's a consistent amount of shots against any and all targets, and you can kiiiind of get the same kustom job twice by having the Snazzwagon specific one on one, and the dakka weapon one on another.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Warlord
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-Blasta
+ Troops +
Boyz [10 PL, 118pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 11x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 11x Choppa, 11x Slugga, 11x Stikkbombs
Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
+ Elites +
Kommandos [8 PL, 115pts]: Distraction Grot
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Kommando: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Kommandos [8 PL, 115pts]: Distraction Grot
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Kommando: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Kommandos [8 PL, 115pts]: Distraction Grot
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Kommando: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
+ Fast Attack +
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [4 PL, 75pts]: Wreckin' Ball
++ Total: [122 PL, 4CP, 1,999pts] ++
My opponant took a pretty aggressive assault intercessor blood angel list backed up by Seth, some redemptor dreads and whirlwinds.
I got first turn, sprinted up the board and even with terrain everything but 1 squigboss and 2 units got in. (barring of course the two footlads who sat on a backfield objective.)
Killed a fair bit, opponant struck back and it devolved into a pretty bitter punchout. Boyz did fairly well wiping out 5 marine units, but 5 assault intercessors could wipe out whatever they touched in return. Got to use Orks is never beaten to kill seth after clearing out a unit of bladeguard. The big killer boss has such a wonderful damage output even when he rolls only average.
The lists ability to take control of the field was great for primaries and secondaries. But it is such a glasshammer list. I'm very, very curious to see how it would go if they got first turn and had a more standard list.
Very fun but feels like playing green skinned Deldar.
Though he did make a bit of a mistake, using an ancient banner wrong swinging with way too many attacks upon death.
Beardedragon wrote: As I see it, the snazzwagon has no purpose. I mean its a worse unit than the squigbuggy so why Even bother using the snazzwagon?
Both weapons use a str 5, -2ap 2 dmg profile, the snazzwagon has 14 attacks up close but hits on 5s, where as the squig buggy hits on 4s without needing Los.
I fail to see why these two buggies have to overlap with the same profile gun with one being visibly better
I use mine as screen/roadblock, just drive it forward as far as possible and then force your opponent to go around, shoot it with -1/-2 to hit or eat overwatch. It's also decent for tying down infantry, as it often can shoot itself out of combat and then charge the next thing. It's essentially the annoying cheap-as-chips harassment buggy it tried to be last edition.
While I totally wouldn't play it over a squiguggy if I had the models, but that's also true for almost every other buggy. Squig buggies are just too good.
Jidmah wrote: Does anyone have a side-by-side comparison between the killrig and the gargantuan squiggoth?
Yeah, it would be really nice if anyone could post exact measurements of a fully built kill rig. The Gargantuan Squiggoth should be way too large, the Kill Rig comes with a 170 mm (knight-sized) base, which is barely large enough to cover the front legs and mouth of the garg squig... My conversion is based on a "normal" squiggoth with parts of the "oil-pump platform" from the killteam terrain in tow, and even that seems slightly too large...
It will be pretty good to have the dimensions. All I have is, that it is 170mm oval base, about 9” long and 5” high. / goonhammer article is the source in this case
Garg squighohq should be about 14” long and 7” high, which is significantly bigger.
Normal Squighog should be 6,5” long and 4,35” high. Too small.
I have non of them, just picked up the data from the webs around.
I tried to build mine approximately the right size by comparing the kill rig on the codex picture to the meganob next to it... of course it's not exact because of projection, but close enough for my gaming group.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I’m very new to orks so please forgive the odd dumb question. I started my army but have only played one game which didn’t go so well. I wanted to play Bad Moonz mainly for aesthetic (painting) reasons but realise I may have hamstrung myself. What’s the consensus on clans as I was thinking of switching to freebootaz. My army right now is non buggy focussed although I could focus that way. I was going to run a 500pt patrol but my marine mate moaned about not being able to run anything good at 500pts. I pushed to 1000 pts only to be met by a wall of tanky stuff.
First of all, welcome
I doubt that freebootas would solve your problem, because you still need to kill something to get that benefit. When playing 1000 points myself I often find myself in situations where between defensive stratagem, terrain and low ranges I cause a lot of damage to marine opponents but don't kill anything (yet). It is also worth noting that stretching a collection to reach more points than you actually have is always going to backfire on you, as most upgrade aren't actually worth their points and you end up with a massive handicap.
In general, most people don't know ork clans anyways, so feel free to experiment. That said, bad moons aren't vastly worse than other options, so maybe share your list and collection? Maybe we can help to re-arrange some stuff or, worst case, point you towards some things you can buy to improve your army. A rough overview of your opponent's army would also help.
Thanks for the welcome! In my 1000pt list I ran pretty much all I had which is:-
Spoiler:
HQ Warboss in mega armour. Weirdboy
Infantry 10 Beast snagga boyz (1 thump gun) and nob with power snappa. 10 trukk boyz with slugga and choppa (1 big shoota) + nob with powerclaw 10 shoota boyz (1 rokkit)+ nob
Fast. 3 squighog riders with nob on smasha squig +1 bomb squig. 3 warbikers 3 deffcoptas.
Heavy 1 deffdread with 2 big shootaz, 1 claw, 1 rokkit.
Transport 1 Trukk
I was seriously lacking anti tank and he was trying to shoot me off the board turn 1. He got first turn, alpha struck with a storm talon taking out most of my beast but most long range shots from vindicator and whirlwind failed.. I managed to get my trukk up the board and engaged his assault intercessors and vindicator (stupid tank choice imo) with trukk boyz who got wiped by the assault intercessors and a character with a storm shield who heroically intervened. deffcoptas swooped and hit his eradicators and Engaged his redemptor and got wiped. Bikers charged his ATV and tied it up. Squighog boys moved out of LOS then engaged and wiped out his eradicators, deployed bomb squig on redemptor then engaged.
Then it was a stalemate and we ran out of time. Not much else played a part. Shoota boyz, warboss didn’t do much and I was in the process of sending the trukk back for them. I was happy with the squig boyz who actually got kills, didn’t use my deffcoptas correctly, dismayed at how easily my trukk were wiped although happy I got them into CC, I could tie a lot up but couldn’t do much damage. I did manage to da jump some stuff with my weirdboy which was nice.
Storm talon just killed at will and everything I sent at the redemptor got smashed. I’m going from memory so some of the details may not be clear.
I see the problem - in essence, you have a LOT of points tied up by boyz, which - as you have noticed yourself - lack the ability to actually kill anything. These days most orks try to avoid running troops, so even at 1000 you should either try going for a patrol detachment and just have one boyz. This would also allow you to drop the weirboy who isn't that good either. One idea would be converting or simply counting one unit of boyz as kommadoz, which are much more durable and flexible than regular boyz, but that doesn't really solve your anti-tank problem.
One thing I would definitely do is change the equipment on your dread. Big shootas aren't really that good to begin with, and are even worse at killing marines. Instead you can either go for the budget option and make it all klaws or put KMBs/rokkits on it. You can also give your nob on smasha squig the killchoppa relic to have it hit harder.
As for anti-tank, I don't see a good way outside of getting new models. A dread with KMB or rokkits and your koptas can deal with regular sized vehicels, but they aren't enough to take out both a redemptor and a storm talon, especially if your opponent is focusing on taking away your only anti-tank options. Possible options would be scrapjets, mek guns, wazzbom, a kannonwagon or a kill rig. A beastboss on squigosaur would also hit hard against these kinds of targets, but you would need to split off a second detachment to be able to field both bosses.
Without buying any new models, your best bet would probably to avoid the redemptor until you can tag it with multiple powerful melee units (squighogs, warboss, dread) after softening it up with shooting. Make sure to focus downing one thing and don't spread your damage. Should the opportunity arise, koptas can charge a flier and deal some extra damage to it, but not lock it.
In any case, you were running into a noob-stomper list tailored to kill orks, so don't fret too hard about not being able to win. You currently lack the models to respond in kind, while the other player clearly has a deep collection with many options.
Thank you, that’s very clear.
I saw his initial list which was mainly infantry and we agreed on a battalion detachment so yeah, I was kind of disappointed to turn up and face a vanguard detachment of heavy armour. I just wanted to experiment and learn but he clearly just wanted to smash me.
So I don’t object to buying new models but the next game will be a 500pt patrol so I’m hoping to whittle my 1000pt list down to 500 whilst focussing on AP against marines. I would like a more flexible list in case he pulls a switch on me and I end up facing 500pts of drukhari (he also has drukhari models) or something stupid.
Heading into another Smaller local tournament today. Going to be running my favored Ork Alpha Strike list featuring 3 units of trukk boyz, 3 units of Kommandos, 3 units of Stormboyz, 2 units of DeffKoptas and Mek gunz to back them all up by sitting on objectives and plinking wounds on important things. So far this list is 9 and 0, including 3 games where I went 2nd. The main point is to forward deploy kommandos into cover to draw fire and on turn 1 slam head first into their lines and utterly destroy as much as possible. Turn 2, when your opponent thinks your army is out of surprises, 3 warbosses pop out of their Trukkz and start wrecking anything that survived turn 1.
Last tournament I ran into a really smart Ad Mech player who used his infantry as a speed bump to protect his chickenwalkers. On his turn he prioritized killing the Kommandos and was able to dispatch most of them, but he left some alive as well as the trukkboyz mostly unmolested and the trukkz as well. Turn two he was unprepared for the warbosses to hop out and lay the smackdown on his unsuspecting chickenwalkers and other heavier units.
So far the list hasn't lost, i'll let you guys know how it does today Wish me luck.
My concerns are do the warbikers have enough punch to do damage against marines and is the trukk just a waste of points? Would I be better off with a 4 claw dread and if I need to, buy a Mek gun for punch on the back line?
Also I may try out as goffs.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if tanks arrive maybe this.
I am going have ladders match tomorrow! Expect to play against person who played 5 games… Imperial Knight ( he not yet play it), Dark Angel (he lost twice with it) or Aeldari ( 1 majority victory and 2 minor victories.)
Since it’s going be my second game and he go for 2,000 match size So I went with this list… still have 200 pts to spare. Feedback?
pretty sure your going to have issues to position the dread, consider piston upgrade, dread moves 6 so giving it the custom job even if you tely is worth it
Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
keep in mind that boys are mainly tar pit units, they don't exactly kill anything, you would be better off giving the truck boy to the warboss so he can rush to the fight and use the boys to take objectives. Just my opinion
After reading how describe your opponent, he feels like a bad player sportsmanship wise. There is no enjoyment in stomping noobs.. I would skip playing with him, and go for a more reasonable opponent that takes in account your lack of experience. Friend or no Friend he is being scummy just for wining, and deserves to be benched.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Solidcrash wrote: I am going have ladders match tomorrow! Expect to play against person who played 5 games… Imperial Knight ( he not yet play it), Dark Angel (he lost twice with it) or Aeldari ( 1 majority victory and 2 minor victories.)
Since it’s going be my second game and he go for 2,000 match size So I went with this list… still have 200 pts to spare. Feedback?
Orks Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 675PT )
LORD OF WAR Stompa (675)
Total Command Points: 6/15
Reinforcement Points: 205
Total Points: 1795/2000
Claws on the boys if you really want them? Consider truckboys for the burna boys and a truck. You lack shooting maybe buggies or mek guns? . take my opinion with a grain , it's just an opinion.
My concerns are do the warbikers have enough punch to do damage against marines and is the trukk just a waste of points? Would I be better off with a 4 claw dread and if I need to, buy a Mek gun for punch on the back line?
Also I may try out as goffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if tanks arrive maybe this.
If I have the mek gun I decide what loadout I put on it depending on what I’m facing. If the storm talon turns up probably tractor, otherwise KMK.
Lists in spoilers please.
I prefer the second list, but I personally would drop the klaw on the boys, use the points to change the smasha squig to three more squighogs (assuming you have the models), and switch the kustom job on the dread to pistons.
Thanks, the plan with the Trukk was to put the boyz in there and the warboss. The boyz being trukkboyz could jump out after the trukk moved and take objectives or strategic positions. Then I could disembark the warboss next turn or move the Trukk again.
I’ll definitely take your advice on the warboss trait/relics.
With the dread I would only use the dread if I could tellyporta it in.
My concerns are do the warbikers have enough punch to do damage against marines and is the trukk just a waste of points? Would I be better off with a 4 claw dread and if I need to, buy a Mek gun for punch on the back line?
Also I may try out as goffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if tanks arrive maybe this.
If I have the mek gun I decide what loadout I put on it depending on what I’m facing. If the storm talon turns up probably tractor, otherwise KMK.
Lists in spoilers please.
I prefer the second list, but I personally would drop the klaw on the boys, use the points to change the smasha squig to three more squighogs (assuming you have the models), and switch the kustom job on the dread to pistons.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Thanks, the plan with the Trukk was to put the boyz in there and the warboss. The boyz being trukkboyz could jump out after the trukk moved and take objectives or strategic positions. Then I could disembark the warboss next turn or move the Trukk again.
I’ll definitely take your advice on the warboss trait/relics.
With the dread I would only use the dread if I could tellyporta it in.
My concerns are do the warbikers have enough punch to do damage against marines and is the trukk just a waste of points? Would I be better off with a 4 claw dread and if I need to, buy a Mek gun for punch on the back line?
Also I may try out as goffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if tanks arrive maybe this.
If I have the mek gun I decide what loadout I put on it depending on what I’m facing. If the storm talon turns up probably tractor, otherwise KMK.
Lists in spoilers please.
I prefer the second list, but I personally would drop the klaw on the boys, use the points to change the smasha squig to three more squighogs (assuming you have the models), and switch the kustom job on the dread to pistons.
Sorry, How do I do lists in spoilers?
If you edit the message, there's a button at the top that says "spoiler". Press it at the start of the list and again at the end and it should spoiler the message. If not, type [.spoiler] at the start and [./spoiler] at the end to do the same (get rid of the full stops though, otherwise it won't work).
Solidcrash wrote: I am going have ladders match tomorrow! Expect to play against person who played 5 games… Imperial Knight ( he not yet play it), Dark Angel (he lost twice with it) or Aeldari ( 1 majority victory and 2 minor victories.)
Since it’s going be my second game and he go for 2,000 match size So I went with this list… still have 200 pts to spare. Feedback?
Orks Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 675PT )
LORD OF WAR Stompa (675)
Total Command Points: 6/15
Reinforcement Points: 205
Total Points: 1795/2000
Claws on the boys if you really want them? Consider truckboys for the burna boys and a truck. You lack shooting maybe buggies or mek guns? . take my opinion with a grain , it's just an opinion.
Heh. I am thinking about that. Claw on Boyz is good idea if I face Knight or characters/vehicles.
I don’t have any Buggies or Mek guns yet but I can create some. I am building Trukk out of spurs at moment.
I have lack of shooting.. yeah one Deffkopta is not enough as it will kill one units a turn. Too slow..
DoktaRoksta wrote: Thanks, the plan with the Trukk was to put the boyz in there and the warboss. The boyz being trukkboyz could jump out after the trukk moved and take objectives or strategic positions. Then I could disembark the warboss next turn or move the Trukk again.
I’ll definitely take your advice on the warboss trait/relics.
With the dread I would only use the dread if I could tellyporta it in.
My concerns are do the warbikers have enough punch to do damage against marines and is the trukk just a waste of points? Would I be better off with a 4 claw dread and if I need to, buy a Mek gun for punch on the back line?
Also I may try out as goffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if tanks arrive maybe this.
If I have the mek gun I decide what loadout I put on it depending on what I’m facing. If the storm talon turns up probably tractor, otherwise KMK.
Lists in spoilers please.
I prefer the second list, but I personally would drop the klaw on the boys, use the points to change the smasha squig to three more squighogs (assuming you have the models), and switch the kustom job on the dread to pistons.
Sorry, How do I do lists in spoilers?
If you edit the message, there's a button at the top that says "spoiler". Press it at the start of the list and again at the end and it should spoiler the message. If not, type [.spoiler] at the start and [./spoiler] at the end to do the same (get rid of the full stops though, otherwise it won't work).
SemperMortis wrote: Heading into another Smaller local tournament today. Going to be running my favored Ork Alpha Strike list featuring 3 units of trukk boyz, 3 units of Kommandos, 3 units of Stormboyz, 2 units of DeffKoptas and Mek gunz to back them all up by sitting on objectives and plinking wounds on important things. So far this list is 9 and 0, including 3 games where I went 2nd. The main point is to forward deploy kommandos into cover to draw fire and on turn 1 slam head first into their lines and utterly destroy as much as possible. Turn 2, when your opponent thinks your army is out of surprises, 3 warbosses pop out of their Trukkz and start wrecking anything that survived turn 1.
Last tournament I ran into a really smart Ad Mech player who used his infantry as a speed bump to protect his chickenwalkers. On his turn he prioritized killing the Kommandos and was able to dispatch most of them, but he left some alive as well as the trukkboyz mostly unmolested and the trukkz as well. Turn two he was unprepared for the warbosses to hop out and lay the smackdown on his unsuspecting chickenwalkers and other heavier units.
So far the list hasn't lost, i'll let you guys know how it does today Wish me luck.
I like it! Not only because it is a clever way to play orks. Simple as hammer and nails.
I wish you luck, win!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just few notes
- last detach, you have the second Big Boss strategem selected and not used….
- warbosses - once kombi skorcha and once kombi rocket? Because of the models you have?
- 4 smashaguns and 2 KMK. Why? Range?
Sempermortis, you have too many Mek Gunz units and rule of 3 is broken. Note that they're all Mek Gunz, regardless of what weapons are equipped with. Also, take lone KMKs and squadron the smashas as the former are more valuable and have shorter range.
Blackie wrote: Sempermortis, you have too many Mek Gunz units and rule of 3 is broken. Note that they're all Mek Gunz, regardless of what weapons are equipped with. Also, take lone KMKs and squadron the smashas as the former are more valuable and have shorter range.
Apologies to you both. I had my actual list built on my phone and put that together on the computer but didn't modify all the parameters correctly. It was 3 units of Mek gunz (All KMK) in 2 units of 2 and 1 unit of 1. Yes morale is an issue for the 2 larger squads but so far none of my opponents have wanted to chance them surviving...and they draw an incredible amount of firepower.
Both regular warbosses were Kombi-Skorchas and the other warlord trait was Might Is Right.
Tournament turned out to be smaller than I anticipated, only 16 player, but I was able to pull out a 1st Place finish with my Alpha striking Orkz, going a perfect 3 and 0.
First Match up was vs a very optimistic Tau Player. He went first and proceeded to blow up all 5 mek gunz and then used all his small arms to overkill all my Kommandos....or that is what he thought he was going to do, after a full round of shooting at them he had only managed to kill 5 out of 30. The Tau player dramatically over-estimated both the potential and durability of those Mek Gunz and dramatically under-estimated how hard it would be to shift T5 models with 3+ saves. On my turn all 3 Kommando units got stuck in, all 3 trukk boyz got stuck in and my Deff Koptas were able to pull off a full Gun run AND charge into vulnerable units. Game went to turn 3 but by the end of turn 2 it was mopping up operations, I lost mek gunz and bits from other units but that was it.
Game 2 was facing off against an Imperial Guard player, it was a rinse and repeat of game 1, heavily overkilled Mek Gunz and under killing trukkz/kommandos to his own detriment. Turn 1 I had all of his vehicles except 1 tied up in CC or dead. Turn 2 warbosses got out and finished off any vehicles my trukk boyz were having problems with. Turn 3 game was over and I maxed out.
Game 3 was the final game against a Thousand sons player. This was a lot closer of a game. He runs a melee screening force to protect his casters, This was also the only game where my mek Gunz didn't die, mostly due to the fact that he had zero ranged firepower. My Mek gunz earned their keep, killing a Vortex beast turn 1 which blew up and damaged some of his own army. The Koptas rained death upon a squad of thousand sons, killing 5, sadly, due to the melee screen I was unable to get stuck in with the scary casters turn 1. On his turn his psychic shenanigans did work. All his spells killed an entire unit of deff Koptas, blew up a trukk and buffed his guys to be extra durable/deadly including a demon prince. He bum rushed my now exposed Warboss and .....wiffed. That battle went on for 2 full rounds before the Warboss came out on top, the half dmg definitely saved his life.
So, things I learned, Koptas are hit or miss with their Dakka, but in CC they are absolute destroyer of worlds. A 150pt Unit of Koptas on a WAAAGH turn gets 27 S6 (Goff) attacks, With a warboss nearby, which in my list is most of the time, that is 27 hits on average (exploding 6s for Goffs). Kommandos are unbelievably durable for their points cost and are not only a distraction carnifex (Forward deployed so need to be dealt with) but are also an alpha strike threat and can do incredible amounts of dmg when ignored. In my first game a unit of Kommandos 1 shot a Broadside AND a firewarrior squad with overkill.
Trukk Boyz are depressingly average. They are a great turn 1 alpha strike threat, but they are still just boyz, and at the cost of their Kulture, they don't do nearly as much as they need to. The only reason they function in my list is because the Warboss is also in the trukk with them and on the 2nd turn he hops out and cleans up anything they were struggling with, while the deff Koptas and Kommandos don't need to be babysat.
Stormboyz....yes. They are just slightly better trukk boyz. I lost a handful of models to auto-advancing 6, and except against that thousand sons player, they were getting stuck in 1st turn against solid targets. And because they keep their kulture, on a WAAAAGH turn they each get 4 S5 attacks which explode on 6s. 9 Stormboyz average 30 hits at S5.
Final thoughts, Mek Gunz are meh, but when they connect are devastating and thanks to this they draw more than their fair share of dakka. They are GREAT backfield distraction carnifexes. More than 1 opponent dedicated way too much firepower to killing them then he should have, which left my Trukkz unmolested and able to deliver their cargo on turns where I didn't go first. ....Actually....thinking about it....I went last in all 3 games Warbosses were devastating melee beat sticks like they were always meant to be And last thought. WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!
Good job, especially winning three in a row while going last in all of them.
Do you think the distraction grot on the kommadoz was worth it? I'm kind of split on that one, since its 10 points on a unit that often dies before moving.
How are you positioning the Mek Gunz? I would think it would be difficult to have them screen your backfield, sit on objectives and be a credible threat that draws fire away from other things. Do you just position them to do damage and call it good?
Jidmah wrote: Good job, especially winning three in a row while going last in all of them.
Do you think the distraction grot on the kommadoz was worth it? I'm kind of split on that one, since its 10 points on a unit that often dies before moving.
Honestly I am torn as well. Its useful like 20-30% of the time so far for me. In most situations its either not needed or as you said they die before using it. I was able to squeeze a test game in with a friend today. All 3 units of Kommandos failed to use it, one was wiped turn 1 so it didn't even get a chance to use its bomb squig, the other 2 were either in cover already when they got attacked or died before using it. The thing is....its 30pts. I could instead give my 3 trukk boyz units PKs but other than that, I can't think of a good use for those points.
discopuma wrote: How are you positioning the Mek Gunz? I would think it would be difficult to have them screen your backfield, sit on objectives and be a credible threat that draws fire away from other things. Do you just position them to do damage and call it good?
I generally position them in cover near an objective. They are 45pts and are T5 with 6 wounds. They aren't hard to remove, but they aren't easy either. The best part about them is Ramshackle which means your opponent can't just plink them with random S5-7 D2 weapons as rare as those are
Speaking of Goff shooting, in my quest to find a competitive dreadmob list, I confirm that the combination of a Goff Morkanaut with Mek Boss Buzzbog is really good (as he gives +1 to hit to a Goff walker unit each turn).
It's like the morkanaut with sparkling bits in the previous codex, but better, as the rokkit are now 2D3 attacks, and the bigshoota 20/12 attacks. (In speedwaagh turn, it shot and wiped a unit of custodes, with a bit of help of a small squad of kans)
Yeah fighting a Tau and a Guard player with that list was a pretty good matchup for you. Theyre both pretty weak to turn 1 alpha strikes, even when they go first That said it gives good hope to this idea of bigger kommando mobs as guard at least still has some strong shooting and should have been able to deal with kommandos to some degree.
Surprised you werent running any buggies but it seems like you had the same basic roles covered between the mek guns and koptas. Im looking to try some koptas in my list as well, just not sure where Im going to get more since I dont feel like buying more starters. Nice to see the mek guns did well too. Im planning on running kannonwagons as I already have those but have been tempted to sprinkle mek gunz in alongside the kannonwagons, they seem to definitely be worth it. 45pts for a weapon like that is pretty good and is honestly probably better than just a 10 strong grot unit for sitting in the back on an objective.
Have you considered adding some bikers to your list? As goffs, on the charge, during a waagh round, 150 points of warbikers strikes with 24 S5, AP-1 attacks, almost as good as the deffkopters. And bikes can advance and charge during a waag because they are core, deffkopters are not. And unlike deffkopters or stormboyz, warbikers are somewhat durable. or A single trukkboyz unit could become a 6-biker unit with a pk. Every ork pays the CP tax to not bring troops this edition, you might as well. Just a thought.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Yeah fighting a Tau and a Guard player with that list was a pretty good matchup for you. Theyre both pretty weak to turn 1 alpha strikes, even when they go first That said it gives good hope to this idea of bigger kommando mobs as guard at least still has some strong shooting and should have been able to deal with kommandos to some degree.
Surprised you werent running any buggies but it seems like you had the same basic roles covered between the mek guns and koptas. Im looking to try some koptas in my list as well, just not sure where Im going to get more since I dont feel like buying more starters. Nice to see the mek guns did well too. Im planning on running kannonwagons as I already have those but have been tempted to sprinkle mek gunz in alongside the kannonwagons, they seem to definitely be worth it. 45pts for a weapon like that is pretty good and is honestly probably better than just a 10 strong grot unit for sitting in the back on an objective.
GG Semper Mortis! Nice to see an ork player winning while 1. going second all 3 games, 2. not playing the clutch units (I personally use the clutch units a lot hah hah, makes it easier and doesn't exhaust my brain as much)
TS: I will play a TS guy in my tournament group friday, I may ask you for some advice prior or after the game. Did your opponent also play the large temi blob with 50 strengh 5 stormbolter shots ? Your list can neutralize them by hiding the infantry turn 1 I think, more than my list can... BTW, in general, did you manage to hide well enough turn 1 in all your 3 games ?
IG Imperial guard is a really outdated codex from what i gather (storm troopers do have play though, not against orks though), so an ork player with your skill would have no issue obliterating them, so not much to say here I think.
Tau As for Tau...The right way to play Tau (unless you are ziegler) currently is the 3*3 broadside build (missile or rail rifle, but their SMS is where where they really shine), with the custorm trait giving -1 ap to missiles. Those 72 (or 80) smart missile systems decimate all kommandos turn 1. You would have had a much harder time (euphemism here, I really think conceded turn 2) against my Tau friend's list, as you went second on all your games.
I know this because I have seen him decimate a sister army with the argent shroud (or whatever the name) trait, the one making ap1 become ap 0, and ap2 become ap1. Such a sister army is a lot tankier (a lot less alpha striky too though).
Your list ork could maybe counter that Tau list if you went first though (emphasis on "maybe", I don't really think so, but maybe).
Tau really lack players with a comp mindset. That broadside list is very easy to play, it requires only the most basic skills to cap objectives with a few troops, and "screen/block opponent in his deploy zone turn 1" with kroot hounds. For the life of me, why oh why are so few players running it ??!!! All it requires is the investment in 9 broadsides, but surely any Tau player have at least half of that already. So much missed opportunity here.
It will never cease to amaze me. It was true in 6th edition, true in 7th, a little less true in 8th thanks to siegler giving ideas to some players, but 9th sure sees its fair share of sub optimal Tau army lists...
Have you considered adding some bikers to your list? As goffs, on the charge, during a waagh round, 150 points of warbikers strikes with 24 S5, AP-1 attacks, almost as good as the deffkopters. And bikes can advance and charge during a waag because they are core, deffkopters are not. And unlike deffkopters or stormboyz, warbikers are somewhat durable. or A single trukkboyz unit could become a 6-biker unit with a pk. Every ork pays the CP tax to not bring troops this edition, you might as well. Just a thought.
Honestly, I am thinking about switching out the Stormboyz for the Bikers for that exact reason. The downside is that they are more than twice as expensive and are literally just boyz on a bike, so while yeah, they are significantly more durable, they don't put out much dmg and they are a juicier target for my opponent to put his multi-dmg S7 and below weapons since they don't have ramshackle like the Deff Koptas. With all that said, I might sacrifice a trukk boyz unit in order to re-align my last detachment with Warbikes instead of other things.
GG Semper Mortis! Nice to see an ork player winning while 1. going second all 3 games, 2. not playing the clutch units (I personally use the clutch units a lot hah hah, makes it easier and doesn't exhaust my brain as much)
TS: I will play a TS guy in my tournament group friday, I may ask you for some advice prior or after the game. Did your opponent also play the large temi blob with 50 strengh 5 stormbolter shots ? Your list can neutralize them by hiding the infantry turn 1 I think, more than my list can... BTW, in general, did you manage to hide well enough turn 1 in all your 3 games ?
Against TS....you have to kill their psykers as fast as physically possible. The problem is that basically all of them are psykers They can dish out mortal wounds in the psychic phase like you wouldn't believe. Their CC gribblies aren't scary as much as they are annoying. Focus firing down the big tentacle monster if he is in the enemies lines is worth a shot, but after that kill those psykers, it means 1-2 fewer psychic powers going off. It also reduces your opponents cabal points which are deadly to put it nicely.
addnid wrote: Tau As for Tau...The right way to play Tau (unless you are ziegler) currently is the 3*3 broadside build (missile or rail rifle, but their SMS is where where they really shine), with the custorm trait giving -1 ap to missiles. Those 72 (or 80) smart missile systems decimate all kommandos turn 1. You would have had a much harder time (euphemism here, I really think conceded turn 2) against my Tau friend's list, as you went second on all your games.
I know this because I have seen him decimate a sister army with the argent shroud (or whatever the name) trait, the one making ap1 become ap 0, and ap2 become ap1. Such a sister army is a lot tankier (a lot less alpha striky too though).
Your list ork could maybe counter that Tau list if you went first though (emphasis on "maybe", I don't really think so, but maybe).
Tau really lack players with a comp mindset. That broadside list is very easy to play, it requires only the most basic skills to cap objectives with a few troops, and "screen/block opponent in his deploy zone turn 1" with kroot hounds. For the life of me, why oh why are so few players running it ??!!! All it requires is the investment in 9 broadsides, but surely any Tau player have at least half of that already. So much missed opportunity here.
It will never cease to amaze me. It was true in 6th edition, true in 7th, a little less true in 8th thanks to siegler giving ideas to some players, but 9th sure sees its fair share of sub optimal Tau army lists...
Ready for this? This is why Kommandos are so damn good. Lets say 80 S5 AP-1 Missiles, that is 40 hits on average, 20 wounds on average and against Those Kommandos hiding out in cover? that is only 13-14 dmg. A single Broadside is 115pts with that 1 upgrade. 3x3 of them would be 1k points, and they struggle to kill 120pts of Kommandos. That is an unbelievable return on investment as the ork player. Kommandos do not get cover saves from those broadsides, but the Kommandos rule says
while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
So they do get +2 armor because they are in cover. that bumps them to 4+, the SMS reduces that to 5+ but still damn good. On top of that, even if the Kommandos were deprived of cover entirely and left in the open with their 6+ save, that is still only enough dakka to kill 1 fulls Kommando mob and most of the 2nd, leaving the 3rd completely unmolested. Again, over 1k points kills 240(ish) in 1 turn, that leaves the trukk boyz, stormboyz and deffkoptas completely unmolested, not to mention the KMKs.
Well I found one thing kommando and buggy spam does not do well against, Belakor with a bunch of slaneeshi daemons. Super fast, cant fall back from several of their units, and overall just an absolute pain to deal with. Got pretty much wiped within 2 turns both games. Granted I went second both times but it was pretty brutal. Not really sure what I could have done different, they were in my deployment turn 1 both times and that was with sending units to take care of my kommandos as well. There was a couple moments of awful luck (such as 6 warbikers, 3 scrapjets, two battlewagons of big shootas and a dakkajets gunfire on speedwaugh failing to kill 30 daemonettes in the open) but it wasnt like every roll was bad.
Best I can tell it was a bad matchup overall. Although I did make a few mistakes, even if I'd played perfectly Im not sure what I couldve done differently. Playing too conservatively in deployment would have just ensured I lost a turn later, but being aggressive also got me in a tight spot. I need to make a few tweaks to my list to be sure, but overall Im not sure what to do against daemons other than maybe just reserve the kommandos as a countercharge and deploy against my backline. Anyone had some games against them and some advice?
Honestly, I am thinking about switching out the Stormboyz for the Bikers for that exact reason. The downside is that they are more than twice as expensive and are literally just boyz on a bike, so while yeah, they are significantly more durable, they don't put out much dmg and they are a juicier target for my opponent to put his multi-dmg S7 and below weapons since they don't have ramshackle like the Deff Koptas. With all that said, I might sacrifice a trukk boyz unit in order to re-align my last detachment with Warbikes instead of other things.
Yeah, I was more thinking about switching out trukkboyz for warbikers. Both have a very long threat range on a waagh-turn for first turn charges, and six boyz with goff-kultur are almost as killy as ten boyz without. The advantage for the bikes, is that if you do not get first turn, they might well be able to shoot AND charge, something neither trukkboyz nor stormboyz can do meaningfully. Stormboyz are a lot more killy, but they are also squishier, their threat range is slightly less, and they have no shooting.
On another note, what do you think about maxing out on kommandos? They are arguably our best unit, so why not bring 45?
Ready for this? This is why Kommandos are so damn good. Lets say 80 S5 AP-1 Missiles, that is 40 hits on average, 20 wounds on average and against Those Kommandos hiding out in cover? that is only 13-14 dmg. A single Broadside is 115pts with that 1 upgrade. 3x3 of them would be 1k points, and they struggle to kill 120pts of Kommandos. That is an unbelievable return on investment as the ork player. Kommandos do not get cover saves from those broadsides, but the Kommandos rule says
while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
So they do get +2 armor because they are in cover. that bumps them to 4+, the SMS reduces that to 5+ but still damn good. On top of that, even if the Kommandos were deprived of cover entirely and left in the open with their 6+ save, that is still only enough dakka to kill 1 fulls Kommando mob and most of the 2nd, leaving the 3rd completely unmolested. Again, over 1k points kills 240(ish) in 1 turn, that leaves the trukk boyz, stormboyz and deffkoptas completely unmolested, not to mention the KMKs.
Well no, because Smart Missile Systems ignore cover completely. So you have 20 dead, because kommandos have a 6+ save and SMS are AP1. Did your opponent forget that they ignored cover ??? I will be more specific: SMS don't need marker lights to ignore cover, they have it natively (Tau have weird interactions). The kommando +2 save while in cover doesn't work against weapons which deprive their target of any cover saves. On the other hand, I think dense cover works against them for -1 to hit, but of this I am unsure.
If ever the TO allowed your kommandos to have a cover save against the SMS, I would be interested to know.
I agree with addnid here. The description for the Smart Missile System says:
This weapon can be fired at units that are not visible to the bearer. Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover.
That implies, that kommandos would have a 6+ save when targeted by Smart Missilie Systems.
Honestly, I am thinking about switching out the Stormboyz for the Bikers for that exact reason. The downside is that they are more than twice as expensive and are literally just boyz on a bike, so while yeah, they are significantly more durable, they don't put out much dmg and they are a juicier target for my opponent to put his multi-dmg S7 and below weapons since they don't have ramshackle like the Deff Koptas. With all that said, I might sacrifice a trukk boyz unit in order to re-align my last detachment with Warbikes instead of other things.
Yeah, I was more thinking about switching out trukkboyz for warbikers. Both have a very long threat range on a waagh-turn for first turn charges, and six boyz with goff-kultur are almost as killy as ten boyz without. The advantage for the bikes, is that if you do not get first turn, they might well be able to shoot AND charge, something neither trukkboyz nor stormboyz can do meaningfully. Stormboyz are a lot more killy, but they are also squishier, their threat range is slightly less, and they have no shooting.
On another note, what do you think about maxing out on kommandos? They are arguably our best unit, so why not bring 45?
The biggest reason about not taking 15 Kommandos is Blast and Morale. At 10 your opponent isn't getting max shots instantly and at 10 if I lose enough and fail morale, i'll only lose 1 model on average, at 15 its possibly 2 or more.
pismakron wrote: I agree with addnid here. The description for the Smart Missile System says:
This weapon can be fired at units that are not visible to the bearer. Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover.
That implies, that kommandos would have a 6+ save when targeted by Smart Missilie Systems.
Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
Probably right honestly, i can see it ruled either way at tournaments. But again, 80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds. Even cancelling out their 6+ armor save, that is still only 19 dead Kommandos, definitely not 30. And that is assuming no overkill, all within range etc. And yet again, Kommandos are 10ppm, I equip mine with 20pts of extras, so it works out to still over 1k points killing a grand total of 240(ish)pts depending on whether or not the nob fails morale which is highly likely If he does pass, or you spend the CP to have him auto-pass that is 30pts less because the grot/squig and PK can all be on the Nob.
I don't see how it can be ruled in any other way, if one reads what pismakron pasted "Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover."
It is pretty clear lol
The broadsides still have their main weapon to wipe out what they have in LOS. I really think not many people ever face a competent Tau player hah hah, more power to the (obviously very few) competent Tau players out there, raise hell wherever you go guys everyone thinks you have a trash tier codex hah hah
addnid wrote: I don't see how it can be ruled in any other way, if one reads what pismakron pasted "Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover."
It is pretty clear lol
The broadsides still have their main weapon to wipe out what they have in LOS. I really think not many people ever face a competent Tau player hah hah, more power to the (obviously very few) competent Tau players out there, raise hell wherever you go guys everyone thinks you have a trash tier codex hah hah
Well, that probably has something to do with how the faction has grown over the years. For all of 6th and 7th they were the easiest/dumbest army to play. Deploy riptides/broadsides and win. Even the strat you suggested is about as straight forward as can be. Ignore cover, shoot at targets in range, GG. Christ, playing against Eldar/Tau players in 7th was probably the funniest thing in the world. Some of these people were convinced to the point of arrogance that they were all amazing generals, running Triptide Wings and Wraithknight/Scat bike spam I'm sure there are some talented Tau Generals out there, but at the moment I haven't met any in competitive games. The closest I've seen to a strategist tau player was a guy in 8th who was running fire warrior spam. It was somewhat inventive if nothing else. You literally could not charge him because the overlapping fire support made it so he could kill 30 boyz just in overwatch.
I wouldn't count out Tau when they get their codex, but as of right now, they are definitely bottom tier.
So, things I learned, Koptas are hit or miss with their Dakka, but in CC they are absolute destroyer of worlds. A 150pt Unit of Koptas on a WAAAGH turn gets 27 S6 (Goff) attacks, With a warboss nearby, which in my list is most of the time, that is 27 hits on average (exploding 6s for Goffs). Kommandos are unbelievably durable for their points cost and are not only a distraction carnifex (Forward deployed so need to be dealt with) but are also an alpha strike threat and can do incredible amounts of dmg when ignored. In my first game a unit of Kommandos 1 shot a Broadside AND a firewarrior squad with overkill.
Just wondering what benefit the warboss gives the deffkoptas? He only gives +1 to core which deffkoptas don't have?
So, things I learned, Koptas are hit or miss with their Dakka, but in CC they are absolute destroyer of worlds. A 150pt Unit of Koptas on a WAAAGH turn gets 27 S6 (Goff) attacks, With a warboss nearby, which in my list is most of the time, that is 27 hits on average (exploding 6s for Goffs). Kommandos are unbelievably durable for their points cost and are not only a distraction carnifex (Forward deployed so need to be dealt with) but are also an alpha strike threat and can do incredible amounts of dmg when ignored. In my first game a unit of Kommandos 1 shot a Broadside AND a firewarrior squad with overkill.
Just wondering what benefit the warboss gives the deffkoptas? He only gives +1 to core which deffkoptas don't have?
Up until yesterday I could have sworn Deffkoptas were CORE. I've since double checked and you guys are correct. But even without the +1 to hit from Warboss, they are still putting out 27 attacks which have 22-23 hits, that is nothing to scoff at either. And again, S6 on the charge
I suppose the only benefit the coptas would get out of a warboss is access to the waagh. For a bit I thought the extra attack only affected core and characters ala the run and charge portion. But nope, seems to affect vehicles too.
Really is a shame the biker boss doesn't have the normal warboss aura.
Up until yesterday I could have sworn Deffkoptas were CORE. I've since double checked and you guys are correct. But even without the +1 to hit from Warboss, they are still putting out 27 attacks which have 22-23 hits, that is nothing to scoff at either. And again, S6 on the charge
The biggest drawback to the deffkoptas not being core, is that you cannot advance and charge them in a Waagh round. Only characters and core.
One option would be the deepstrike them, and then shoot and charge with Ramming Speed. Or just use bikers.
I deepstrike them, a squad of 3 as the harassing unit. Useful for board control too. And I don't care about advance and charge since I play Speedwaaagh, and a more shooting focused force than an melee alpha strike build, so I prefer giving them AP-3 rokkits. Bikers are also very good, I'm currently bringing 2x5, but they don't deep strike and they're exclusively anti infantry.
Tomsug wrote: Tau are definitely a bottom tier. It' s always embarassing to see the face of tau player seeing that orks shoots much better then tau…
Same level as poor IG. You can do anything, but codex is againts you on all fronts.
Except IG can build some interesting lists with annoing noLOS fire, close DS, vehicles or infantry spam and charge you on horses….
You obvioulsy never saw a what 9 braodside list can do, when played by a competent player. Tau are def not bottom tier (to be more precise, they have one build that def is not bottom tier), but Tau players, to all evidence, are.
addnid wrote: I don't see how it can be ruled in any other way, if one reads what pismakron pasted "Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover."
It is pretty clear lol
The broadsides still have their main weapon to wipe out what they have in LOS. I really think not many people ever face a competent Tau player hah hah, more power to the (obviously very few) competent Tau players out there, raise hell wherever you go guys everyone thinks you have a trash tier codex hah hah
Well, that probably has something to do with how the faction has grown over the years. For all of 6th and 7th they were the easiest/dumbest army to play. Deploy riptides/broadsides and win. Even the strat you suggested is about as straight forward as can be. Ignore cover, shoot at targets in range, GG. Christ, playing against Eldar/Tau players in 7th was probably the funniest thing in the world. Some of these people were convinced to the point of arrogance that they were all amazing generals, running Triptide Wings and Wraithknight/Scat bike spam I'm sure there are some talented Tau Generals out there, but at the moment I haven't met any in competitive games. The closest I've seen to a strategist tau player was a guy in 8th who was running fire warrior spam. It was somewhat inventive if nothing else. You literally could not charge him because the overlapping fire support made it so he could kill 30 boyz just in overwatch.
I wouldn't count out Tau when they get their codex, but as of right now, they are definitely bottom tier.
So you agree with me it's a player preoblem, not an army book problem
Anyway, I am dropping the subject, as no one here, albeit me, can count Tau as a threat to orks hah hah. I will tell my Tau friend to read this thread, he will have a good laugh.
As for deffkoptas, they really do shine as goff, 2*3 in a godff list seems to be the sweet spot. They do good work as freebooters too from the games I had with them. The main drawback they have is that 2 CP for ramming speed you need to keep for them (so they can charge and kill/bad touch a juicy target, such as a plagueburst crawler to prevent it from shooting), IMHO. I currently tend to play with only 4-6 CP, and could of smoke, souped up KFF, etc. can sometimes tend to make ramming speed tricky to use.
Any Tau army would almost auto lose against Ghazhkull. As they would be unable to take him more than 4wounds per turn, he can run rampage at least for 3 full turns.
It doesn't matter how good is the Tau player, and this is definitely a codex issue.
addnid wrote: You obvioulsy never saw a what 9 braodside list can do, when played by a competent player. Tau are def not bottom tier (to be more precise, they have one build that def is not bottom tier), but Tau players, to all evidence, are.
No idea. I saw a couple of different lists around on the TTS incl. some lists with “robots with big gunz”. No idea what was it. All of them was down T3 and I' m definitely not a great player.
Let ' s skip this topic. This is about ork tactic.
XC18 wrote: Any Tau army would almost auto lose against Ghazhkull. As they would be unable to take him more than 4wounds per turn, he can run rampage at least for 3 full turns.
It doesn't matter how good is the Tau player, and this is definitely a codex issue.
I mean ghaz is slow movement and is able to be tied down w chaff so just tie him up and slow him down and ignore him. He isn’t going to bother a good tau player.
SemperMortis wrote: Probably right honestly, i can see it ruled either way at tournaments. But again, 80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds.
Moral would then kill another five to seven reducing your squad to such a tiny number that it would be functionally completely useless.
3 squads of 10, assuming he splits all 20 casualties evenly among the 3 squads (6, 6 and 7) you then have a 50/50 chance to pass 1 of 3 morale checks, likely fail all. That brings you down to 3 3 and 2, you then lose 1 more from 2 squads and have a 1/3rd chance to lose 1 more to attrition, bringing you down to 2 2 and likely 2. Here is the best part, I now have 3 nobz alive, 3 Bomb Squigs and 3 Distraction grots. And I also have 3 separate units that still need to be dealt with because they will be charging on their turn, and a single Kommando nob against a broadside averages 4 attacks, 2.5 hits (-1 to hit, exploding 6s) and 2.08 wounds, which are -3AP and 2D each. The bomb squigs do D3 mortals and the one remaining Kommando can do 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, S5 on charge and +1 to wound means 2.2 wounds at -1AP. So The bomb squigs would average 6 Mortal wounds, the Nobz would average 8ish dmg and the boyz would average 2-3 against those same Broadside suits. So that is 1 dead suit to Mortal wounds, at least 1 dead suit to the nobz and 1 mostly dead suit to the remaining boyz/nob. So the 360pts of Kommandos which get whittled down to minuscule numbers still managed to 1: draw the fire of 1k points for 1 turn AND kill 230pts of Broadsides in a single round of Combat/shooting (bombsquigs) If they roll slightly above average and kill that 3rd broadside, they basically make their points back. And ALL of that is assuming the worst scenario of Orkz going 2nd.
Basically, with small squads, you don't want to rely on morale to kill off the remainder because it likely wont and worse, with our squads, if you leave even 1 model alive it is likely going to be the Nob who is most of the time the 1 model in the mob you want dead first, and in the specific case of the Kommandos, leaving even 1 model alive per mob leaves you with the Bomb Squig still alive and the PK Nob along with Distraction grot. To put it another way, killing 9 Kommandos does not reduce the mobz efficiency by 90%, it only reduces it by about 50% (9 Kommandos would do 6.6dmg to a Broadside, the Nob alone does 3-4 and the bomb squig does 2 on average)
SemperMortis wrote: Probably right honestly, i can see it ruled either way at tournaments. But again, 80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds.
Moral would then kill another five to seven reducing your squad to such a tiny number that it would be functionally completely useless.
3 squads of 10, assuming he splits all 20 casualties evenly among the 3 squads (6, 6 and 7) you then have a 50/50 chance to pass 1 of 3 morale checks, likely fail all. That brings you down to 3 3 and 2, you then lose 1 more from 2 squads and have a 1/3rd chance to lose 1 more to attrition, bringing you down to 2 2 and likely 2. Here is the best part, I now have 3 nobz alive, 3 Bomb Squigs and 3 Distraction grots. And I also have 3 separate units that still need to be dealt with because they will be charging on their turn, and a single Kommando nob against a broadside averages 4 attacks, 2.5 hits (-1 to hit, exploding 6s) and 2.08 wounds, which are -3AP and 2D each. The bomb squigs do D3 mortals and the one remaining Kommando can do 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, S5 on charge and +1 to wound means 2.2 wounds at -1AP. So The bomb squigs would average 6 Mortal wounds, the Nobz would average 8ish dmg and the boyz would average 2-3 against those same Broadside suits. So that is 1 dead suit to Mortal wounds, at least 1 dead suit to the nobz and 1 mostly dead suit to the remaining boyz/nob. So the 360pts of Kommandos which get whittled down to minuscule numbers still managed to 1: draw the fire of 1k points for 1 turn AND kill 230pts of Broadsides in a single round of Combat/shooting (bombsquigs) If they roll slightly above average and kill that 3rd broadside, they basically make their points back. And ALL of that is assuming the worst scenario of Orkz going 2nd.
Basically, with small squads, you don't want to rely on morale to kill off the remainder because it likely wont and worse, with our squads, if you leave even 1 model alive it is likely going to be the Nob who is most of the time the 1 model in the mob you want dead first, and in the specific case of the Kommandos, leaving even 1 model alive per mob leaves you with the Bomb Squig still alive and the PK Nob along with Distraction grot. To put it another way, killing 9 Kommandos does not reduce the mobz efficiency by 90%, it only reduces it by about 50% (9 Kommandos would do 6.6dmg to a Broadside, the Nob alone does 3-4 and the bomb squig does 2 on average)
You forgot to account for the three units overwatch the Tau enjoy for free. That will lower your damage output a bit more.
SemperMortis wrote: Probably right honestly, i can see it ruled either way at tournaments. But again, 80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds.
Moral would then kill another five to seven reducing your squad to such a tiny number that it would be functionally completely useless.
3 squads of 10, assuming he splits all 20 casualties evenly among the 3 squads (6, 6 and 7) you then have a 50/50 chance to pass 1 of 3 morale checks, likely fail all. That brings you down to 3 3 and 2, you then lose 1 more from 2 squads and have a 1/3rd chance to lose 1 more to attrition, bringing you down to 2 2 and likely 2. Here is the best part, I now have 3 nobz alive, 3 Bomb Squigs and 3 Distraction grots. And I also have 3 separate units that still need to be dealt with because they will be charging on their turn, and a single Kommando nob against a broadside averages 4 attacks, 2.5 hits (-1 to hit, exploding 6s) and 2.08 wounds, which are -3AP and 2D each. The bomb squigs do D3 mortals and the one remaining Kommando can do 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, S5 on charge and +1 to wound means 2.2 wounds at -1AP. So The bomb squigs would average 6 Mortal wounds, the Nobz would average 8ish dmg and the boyz would average 2-3 against those same Broadside suits. So that is 1 dead suit to Mortal wounds, at least 1 dead suit to the nobz and 1 mostly dead suit to the remaining boyz/nob. So the 360pts of Kommandos which get whittled down to minuscule numbers still managed to 1: draw the fire of 1k points for 1 turn AND kill 230pts of Broadsides in a single round of Combat/shooting (bombsquigs) If they roll slightly above average and kill that 3rd broadside, they basically make their points back. And ALL of that is assuming the worst scenario of Orkz going 2nd.
Basically, with small squads, you don't want to rely on morale to kill off the remainder because it likely wont and worse, with our squads, if you leave even 1 model alive it is likely going to be the Nob who is most of the time the 1 model in the mob you want dead first, and in the specific case of the Kommandos, leaving even 1 model alive per mob leaves you with the Bomb Squig still alive and the PK Nob along with Distraction grot. To put it another way, killing 9 Kommandos does not reduce the mobz efficiency by 90%, it only reduces it by about 50% (9 Kommandos would do 6.6dmg to a Broadside, the Nob alone does 3-4 and the bomb squig does 2 on average)
You forgot to account for the three units overwatch the Tau enjoy for free. That will lower your damage output a bit more.
not at all, because I also have 3 units of trukkboyz and 3 units of stormboyz and possibly deffkoptas/trukkz assaulting that same turn as well. So the Kommandos with their weakened squad, only go in after overwatch
These scenarios generally go along these lines "X is better than Y in this 1 specific scenario" quickly followed by Y+1 and then X+1 etc etc etc. I mean, this literally started with me pointing out how good Kommandos were and someone said "1kpts of Broadsides loaded out specifically to kill those kommandos will totally destroy 360pts of Kommandos" ironically as I have shown they don't but its rather telling that the scenario didn't even start out at an equal 1vs1, it went straight to 3vs1 in order to have the Tau favored.
XC18 wrote: Any Tau army would almost auto lose against Ghazhkull. As they would be unable to take him more than 4wounds per turn, he can run rampage at least for 3 full turns.
It doesn't matter how good is the Tau player, and this is definitely a codex issue.
Not really. Shoot once, shoot twice, overwatch. Sure, the tau player may have bad dice and actually might have to feed him a unit, but Tau having issues stopping Thrakka is mostly armchair whining. A guy I know is probably the worst tau player in existence, and even he managed to kill him before he did any damage.
Yea ghaz seems great on paper against T'au but they can always overwatch which can be a pain when you run Goff in general, and since Ghaz cant be healed anymore and is now slower due to him being unable to advance and charge at will anymore, Ghaz is not really an auto pick versus Tau anymore.
In fact Ghaz isnt auto pick against anyone id say. hes kind of bad now.
SemperMortis wrote: Probably right honestly, i can see it ruled either way at tournaments. But again, 80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds.
Moral would then kill another five to seven reducing your squad to such a tiny number that it would be functionally completely useless.
3 squads of 10, assuming he splits all 20 casualties evenly among the 3 squads (6, 6 and 7) you then have a 50/50 chance to pass 1 of 3 morale checks, likely fail all. That brings you down to 3 3 and 2, you then lose 1 more from 2 squads and have a 1/3rd chance to lose 1 more to attrition, bringing you down to 2 2 and likely 2. Here is the best part, I now have 3 nobz alive, 3 Bomb Squigs and 3 Distraction grots. And I also have 3 separate units that still need to be dealt with because they will be charging on their turn, and a single Kommando nob against a broadside averages 4 attacks, 2.5 hits (-1 to hit, exploding 6s) and 2.08 wounds, which are -3AP and 2D each. The bomb squigs do D3 mortals and the one remaining Kommando can do 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, S5 on charge and +1 to wound means 2.2 wounds at -1AP. So The bomb squigs would average 6 Mortal wounds, the Nobz would average 8ish dmg and the boyz would average 2-3 against those same Broadside suits. So that is 1 dead suit to Mortal wounds, at least 1 dead suit to the nobz and 1 mostly dead suit to the remaining boyz/nob. So the 360pts of Kommandos which get whittled down to minuscule numbers still managed to 1: draw the fire of 1k points for 1 turn AND kill 230pts of Broadsides in a single round of Combat/shooting (bombsquigs) If they roll slightly above average and kill that 3rd broadside, they basically make their points back. And ALL of that is assuming the worst scenario of Orkz going 2nd.
Basically, with small squads, you don't want to rely on morale to kill off the remainder because it likely wont and worse, with our squads, if you leave even 1 model alive it is likely going to be the Nob who is most of the time the 1 model in the mob you want dead first, and in the specific case of the Kommandos, leaving even 1 model alive per mob leaves you with the Bomb Squig still alive and the PK Nob along with Distraction grot. To put it another way, killing 9 Kommandos does not reduce the mobz efficiency by 90%, it only reduces it by about 50% (9 Kommandos would do 6.6dmg to a Broadside, the Nob alone does 3-4 and the bomb squig does 2 on average)
You forgot to account for the three units overwatch the Tau enjoy for free. That will lower your damage output a bit more.
not at all, because I also have 3 units of trukkboyz and 3 units of stormboyz and possibly deffkoptas/trukkz assaulting that same turn as well. So the Kommandos with their weakened squad, only go in after overwatch
These scenarios generally go along these lines "X is better than Y in this 1 specific scenario" quickly followed by Y+1 and then X+1 etc etc etc. I mean, this literally started with me pointing out how good Kommandos were and someone said "1kpts of Broadsides loaded out specifically to kill those kommandos will totally destroy 360pts of Kommandos" ironically as I have shown they don't but its rather telling that the scenario didn't even start out at an equal 1vs1, it went straight to 3vs1 in order to have the Tau favored.
Semper, I was about to drop it but apprently the subject is not as uninteresting to tohers here as I initially thought. Any half decent Tau player has figured out that 9 broadsides is currently the only "easy way" for Tau. That is not kitting out to kill kommandos.
If you actually try the match up, you will see that you have remora drones and other units (crisis suits with the airbursting frag thing there that is more or less a non heavy SMS) which will probably finish off your kommandos, if ever the tau player feels like it. I don't see the math behind your single nob kommando killing a broadside with his bomb sguig, grot ninja and his weapon (klaw or big choppa).
That doesn't mean 3*10 Goff kommandos fully kitted out are bad. They are very good. Theyjust have a very bad match up against 9 broadsides if the tau goes first. Do we have a better codex than Tau ? We do (at least we have lots of different comp builds) ! Is that a reason to think we have it easy against a good Tau player ? No. Against all these very casual Tau players, yes, we certainly seem to have an easy time winning.
Should we still go on about Tau in this ork thread ? Probably not
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Beardedragon wrote: Yea ghaz seems great on paper against T'au but they can always overwatch which can be a pain when you run Goff in general, and since Ghaz cant be healed anymore and is now slower due to him being unable to advance and charge at will anymore, Ghaz is not really an auto pick versus Tau anymore.
In fact Ghaz isnt auto pick against anyone id say. hes kind of bad now.
I agree, he is not good at his current price point. 250 points ? Now we would be talking. But triple kill tank lists seem to use him (I have seen two such lists lately floating around), even at his current points. And they won stuff so there could be something there.
I personally don't even want to try him out, too many eggs in the basket. You get three scrapjets for 30 points cheaper, for crying out loud
Let alone the idea that if you use ghaz, you MUST form an army around both shooting and melee, which seem.. very difficult to do properly. There seem to be only a select few army compositions that im aware of, that works with the idea of a decent focus on both CC and shooting.
Semper, I was about to drop it but apprently the subject is not as uninteresting to tohers here as I initially thought. Any half decent Tau player has figured out that 9 broadsides is currently the only "easy way" for Tau. That is not kitting out to kill kommandos.
If you actually try the match up, you will see that you have remora drones and other units (crisis suits with the airbursting frag thing there that is more or less a non heavy SMS) which will probably finish off your kommandos, if ever the tau player feels like it. I don't see the math behind your single nob kommando killing a broadside with his bomb sguig, grot ninja and his weapon (klaw or big choppa).
That doesn't mean 3*10 Goff kommandos fully kitted out are bad. They are very good. Theyjust have a very bad match up against 9 broadsides if the tau goes first. Do we have a better codex than Tau ? We do (at least we have lots of different comp builds) ! Is that a reason to think we have it easy against a good Tau player ? No. Against all these very casual Tau players, yes, we certainly seem to have an easy time winning.
Should we still go on about Tau in this ork thread ? Probably not
Yes, but again, you are comparing 1k points of Broadsides vs 360pts of Kommandos, and as the math stands right now, they fail to kill them. And the reason I pointed out that all 3 squads would be alive is to show that you actually need to focus fire down those mobs in order to fully reduce their threat. If you want to add in even more points to kill off those 360pts of Kommandos, that is fine, but remember, that means that the rest of the ork list is basically unmolested and still has incredibly strong alpha strike potential.
Here is the math for a Goff Kommando Nob, 1 remaining Boy, grot and Bomb squig.
Bomb Squig: On a 3+ Bomb squig does D3 Mortals. For some reason Tau Suits are still not considered vehicles, something that I hope is fixed in the next codex, because if they do, it goes to a 2+. Regardless, i'd be willing to spend 1CP to reroll that So 2Dmg right off the bat.
Goff Boy. 2 attacks base, +1 choppa, +1 Waaagh = 4 Hitting on 3s is 2.66, with 0.66 chance of an exploding 6 so 3.33 hits, S5 and +1 to wound is wounding on 3s so 2.22 wounds at -1 AP which equals out to 0.74ish dmg.
Nob is 3 attacks Base, 4 for Waaaagh. Hitting on 4s because -1 on PK so 2 hits with again 0.66 chance of an exploding 6 so 2.66, S12 +1 to wound is wounding on 2s so 2.22 wounds at -3 AP which reduces the Broadside to 5+ save, so 2.96 average dmg (1/3rd chance to save, each is 2flat dmg). A Broadside has 6 Wounds, The Bomb Squig alone does 2, the Nob does basically 3 and the boy has a pretty good chance to do 1 which will hit that magic number of 6. The likely outcome is 1 dead Broadside from a single Nob, Kommando and bomb squig.
The other way around which is killing basically 2 full squads and leaving the last unmolested ends up with that one Kommando squad going in and putting down Almost 2 Broadsides completely. The Kommandos, while deadly, don't do well against 2+ armor. The Nobz on the other hand with their -3AP PKs are perfectly suited for killing them, which is why the better strategy is to kill as many of the nobz as possible, doesn't matter that 1 squad is basically unmolested, it does less dmg than the 3 mobz left over with 2 models each.
And of course the most important part of all of this is yet again, this only works if the Tau player goes first, if the Kommandos go first...its game over already.
I'm really blown away with how many bodies you can still fit in after taking 6 planes and a rukkatrukk.
Question for people, Should I take a warboss on foot instead of the warboss on bike for 10 points less (allowing me to take a 6th supa shoota on my 3rd dakka jet, turning the attack squig attacks into killa klaw attacks if they (hopefully) don't make it to the damage stage with brutal but kunning and giving the possibility of +1 to hit to my infantry if nearby (I could also turn him obsec with the freeboota strat))
Warboss on bike is tougher and faster though.Thoughts?
With how well my Alpha strike list is flying under the radar, when the nerf stick comes out i am hoping my list dodges it completely Maybe let Specialist mobs keep their kulture! Really bump up my dmg potential. Trukk Boyz at S5 on the charge with exploding 6s would be great!
I don’t see anything in your list that deserves a nerf.. (maybe kommandos compared to other infantry in codex) but honestly most of our infantry units are poorly costed.
If a nerf is coming I’d expect point hike on squigbuggy and scrapjet but that it unless killrigs blow up the meta which they won’t since large vehicles don’t usually do well in 9th.
Honestly I’m just waiting for the campaign book leaks now. New relics and a detachment of renown can only help with list diversity. We are kinda stuck currently in multiple varients of scrapjet/squigbuggy spam as our only competitive tourney list. I mean varients of freebooter, or evilsun with a rare occasional goff or deathskull secondary detachment is the most variety we see. Hoping for a dreadmob or greentide heck I’d take beastsnagga detachment of renown.
With how well my Alpha strike list is flying under the radar, when the nerf stick comes out i am hoping my list dodges it completely Maybe let Specialist mobs keep their kulture! Really bump up my dmg potential. Trukk Boyz at S5 on the charge with exploding 6s would be great!
Sorry mate which one of the lists on there is yours?
Hey guys, I'm having some difficulty facing off against DG in some of my games recently. I find that we have limited ways of getting to their plagueburst crawlers barring flyers now that shokkjump dragstas can't insta teleport. My opponent usually screens well enough that I can't get any stormboyz in to try and tie them up. I usually have to try and power through Morty and Terminators challenging the center and by the time I do get through (or vice-versa) the damage has already been done. Any suggestions on how to deal with DG as a SpeedWAAAGH! based army?
Semper, I don't agree on much you said in your last post regarding Tau, but I think this thread has seen enough of that let's agree to disagree. Competent players play so very differently (espcially deploying to screen out stuff like Kommandos for example) that it would be too time consuming in describing how "no, the game is not over at all if an ork player goes first against Tau, especially with a list that doesn't shoot much."
I really like Kilton's list, I might try it out some time, without the nobz on smasha sguig though, and without the warbikers (which are not great as deathskullz IMHO).
I like the tripple Killtank list couple of weeks old. That was very clever.
For me, it is hard to appreciate the dyno lists. I convert the Beastboss on Robosaur and 2 Killrigs based on huge dump trucks. That is all I want to do with this dyno wave. So I don' t even know their rules…
I can't decide on Deathskulls, Freebootaz or Blood Axes on my Outrider detachment in my infantry alpha strike/buggy spam list.
Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards Blood Axes in all honesty, with Deathskulls being a second favourite. Freebootaz seems nice on paper but it's been fairly unreliable for me.
I mean your list screams bloodaxe..
Deffskulls encourage kommandos or stormboys for obj secured units
Freebooters wants you to go in heavy on freebooters and load up on Dakka shooting.
And bloodaxes if mostly for buggyspam using fallback and charge or shoot.
Apparently its too durable at 120pts with T6 12 wounds and a 4+ save. I'll also guess they were the same ones freaking out over T5 Ork Boyz and probably still want them to have a price increase. 
