gungo wrote: I mean your list screams bloodaxe..
Deffskulls encourage kommandos or stormboys for obj secured units
Freebooters wants you to go in heavy on freebooters and load up on Dakka shooting.
And bloodaxes if mostly for buggyspam using fallback and charge or shoot.
My kommandos and stormboys are all in my Deathskulls patrol for the ObSec, and that bit's non-negotiable at the moment
I think Freebootaz isn't working out for me because I need to double down on it and load up on Mek guns, jets, etc to force the kulture to go off rather than it being kind of self contained like it currently is.
Deathskulls and Blood Axes both add durability, but I think I prefer Blood Axes for the hit penalty and fall back and shoot/charge over the save against mortals
Ya I was talking about the outrider detachment that’s already bloodaxe.. that detachment is designed for bloodaxe.
All your points regarding freebooters etc I agree with.
owni wrote: What are your guys thoughts on a kultur to run a list centered around using trukk boyz (4 x 12), a battle wagon filled with 20 boyz and 3 dreads?
How do you get four detachments? Isn't that only for 3k games?
owni wrote: What are your guys thoughts on a kultur to run a list centered around using trukk boyz (4 x 12), a battle wagon filled with 20 boyz and 3 dreads?
How do you get four detachments? Isn't that only for 3k games?
Yeah, I was about to mention that myself. Unless he means boyz in trukks in general, which I find unlikely. Either way, a mechanized list is hard to run with Orks right now that doesn't have a buggy base to soak up the fire. I'd say Blood Axes are pretty decent for the redeploy strat, otherwise I'd say generally most of the other Klanz don't synergize that well with transport heavy Orks, especially for the units you currently have.
owni wrote: Sorry didn't mean specialists, used to just calling boyz I'm taking in trukkz that name.
Okay, so you think blood axes over deffskullz? I am not a huge fan of the way the buggies look for some reason.
Blood axes are about fall back and shoot, deathskull about spamming obj sec specialists. Your list seems to be melee oriented, I'd definitely suggest going Goffs. At least for the detachment involving the units you mentioned.
Jidmah wrote: Agree, the only way to make non-specialist boyz do anything is by running them as goff.
While I would never call myself a competitive player (if only because I don't participate in tournaments), I would agree with that statement. My current ork list uses four squads of Goff boyz mounted on trukks for a turn 2 assault and it has been working fairly well. Without Goff though, the charge would lack some serious punch. The extra point of strength and the exploding hits on 6s (or fives for 2cp) really helps to carry a squad of boyz from astoundingly meh to actually pretty darn good against anything but the toughest infantry or vehicles. If you have non-specialist boyz, either you are paying "the troop tax" or you a are gimping yourself on purpose.
This may be a very stupid newbie question but I’m seeing lots of these army lists that don’t run Boyz but do run StormBoyz or more often than not Kommandos. I’m guessing these are usually 2000pt list with and they always have 2 detachments but it never says what type of detachment. Are they vanguard detachments that allow people 2 run 3 units of Kommandos?
DoktaRoksta wrote: This may be a very stupid newbie question but I’m seeing lots of these army lists that don’t run Boyz but do run StormBoyz or more often than not Kommandos. I’m guessing these are usually 2000pt list with and they always have 2 detachments but it never says what type of detachment. Are they vanguard detachments that allow people 2 run 3 units of Kommandos?
Usually it depends on the context. A lot of lists run a vanguard detachment followed by two patrols. Or it's 3 patrol detachments since then you have more than enough slots to max out the FA and Elites slots for Kommandos and Stormboyz. If you are using a buggy list, then you want at least a vanguard to go with a patrol, since you're more likely than not going to use up all 6 slots on buggies and then the remaining 2 slots from the patrol on Stormboyz.
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Jidmah wrote: Agree, the only way to make non-specialist boyz do anything is by running them as goff.
If you're going Goff Heavy, is worth bringing Ghazzy at all? Or is it safer just to rely on Squigosaur Beastbosses and the Warboss on Warbike?
I mean you can bring ghaz for fun but he’s objectively worse then a beastboss on squig. He’s like almost decent but his lack of fast movement, no sweep atk, and almost reliance on dual Waagh makes it hard to fully utilize him. But he’s still a beat stick that usually last 2 turns even if focus fired by most armies.
DoktaRoksta wrote: This may be a very stupid newbie question but I’m seeing lots of these army lists that don’t run Boyz but do run StormBoyz or more often than not Kommandos. I’m guessing these are usually 2000pt list with and they always have 2 detachments but it never says what type of detachment. Are they vanguard detachments that allow people 2 run 3 units of Kommandos?
At 2000 points you can field two patrols and an outrider detachment, which is one of the most common combinations you see in tournaments. 10 Fast attacks and 6 Elite slots available in total. A single battallion also allows 6 Elites, so the vanguard detachment is something that is never considered for orks.
gungo wrote: I mean you can bring ghaz for fun but he’s objectively worse then a beastboss on squig. He’s like almost decent but his lack of fast movement, no sweep atk, and almost reliance on dual Waagh makes it hard to fully utilize him. But he’s still a beat stick that usually last 2 turns even if focus fired by most armies.
Well, I approach this from the other side - if your melee focused goff army has enough things that benefit from a speedwaaagh, like scrapjets, warbikers, dreads, koptas, killrigs or a gorkanaut, then he worth running Thrakka.
From a purely competitive point of view, he went back to being way too expensive for what he brings to the table. Even if you optimize an army to make best use out of Thrakka, that very same army often ends up better when run as a different clan with a squigboss or bikerboss.
gungo wrote: I mean you can bring ghaz for fun but he’s objectively worse then a beastboss on squig. He’s like almost decent but his lack of fast movement, no sweep atk, and almost reliance on dual Waagh makes it hard to fully utilize him. But he’s still a beat stick that usually last 2 turns even if focus fired by most armies.
Well, I approach this from the other side - if your melee focused goff army has enough things that benefit from a speedwaaagh, like scrapjets, warbikers, dreads, koptas, killrigs or a gorkanaut, then he worth running Thrakka.
From a purely competitive point of view, he went back to being way too expensive for what he brings to the table. Even if you optimize an army to make best use out of Thrakka, that very same army often ends up better when run as a different clan with a squigboss or bikerboss.
Keep in mind the triplle Killtank list few weeks old. This was based on synergy of the units + goff + Ghazzy.
Similar synergy list could be made with the killrigs… maybe…
I honestly still think kill rigs are overhyped and they benefit nowhere nearly as much from a speedwaaagh as a killtank does.
People are finishing up their kill rigs rigs right about now, this and next week they should be hitting tournaments in force. We'll see if they make a splash then.
If you use brutal but kunning on a squigosaur boss, and you miss all 3 hits with the jaw attacks of the squig, do you get 3 extra attacks with the squig, or 3 extra attacks with the normal attack profile of the ork?
Beardedragon wrote: If you use brutal but kunning on a squigosaur boss, and you miss all 3 hits with the jaw attacks of the squig, do you get 3 extra attacks with the squig, or 3 extra attacks with the normal attack profile of the ork?
No matter how many attacks you roll, you can never make more than 3 attacks with the jaw.
Beardedragon wrote: If you use brutal but kunning on a squigosaur boss, and you miss all 3 hits with the jaw attacks of the squig, do you get 3 extra attacks with the squig, or 3 extra attacks with the normal attack profile of the ork?
No matter how many attacks you roll, you can never make more than 3 attacks with the jaw.
alright, so those attacks gets thrown in to the ork ridings attacks? and im assuming the goff kulture giving extra hits on a 6, still gives you an extra hit for the jaws since its not an extra attack but a hit?
Hello all, long time Ork player that just got hold of the new codex here.
My pride and joy is my Morkanaut and I have a question about using it this edition. Pic for attention!
In the old codex clan cultures affected ork detachments excluding Super Heavy Aux Detachments, in the new Codex all I can find is all ork detachments gain clans.
Both the specialist mobs and kustom jobs rules exclude Super heavy aux detachments but not the Clans rules.
This had me thinking that the Mork/Gorkanaut plus Stompa actually get Clan Cluture?
However, in the Reference section the detachment abilities section has an additional bullet point stating: This does not apply to Aux Support, Super-Heavy Aux support or Fort Network Dets.
Apart from being typically bad writing from GW what do you think takes prescendant here? The main rules or the reference section?
thanks. i only recently bought my first squig boss so its good info to have.
On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?
3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.
Im trying to think of a way to run 2 squigbosses but i always come back to speed waaaghs because i have very few kommandos and no stormboys, so a normal waaagh isnt great for what i have.
Even if i ran 3 patrols that would be 4CP spend, and most likely +3-4 extra CP for extra gubbinz and big boss stratagems for said 2 squigbosses. thats kind of CP expensive.
At the end of the day i always end up with 1 wartrike and 1 squigboss for my shooting armies with something like freebootas.
On a different note, it kind of annoys me how our army can be thrown in 4 major categories, but only 2,5 of said 4 categories are buffed by waaaghs. - Infantry Melee --> full effect from normal waagh.(1) - Infantry Shooting --> no buffs what so ever. I mean you could use a normal waaagh and run in to melee but if you are considering that why are you running infantry with ranged weapons? (0) - Mechanized Melee ---> half an effect from normal waaaghs, but not super good given +1 attack for a singular model isnt super (0,5) - Mechanized shooting --> full effect of a speed waaagh (1)
So basically infantry shooting gets nothing at all. Im not confused as to why no competitive lists run any real infantry shooting, because if you do you arent running an efficient army, and if you dont do that, you arent running a competitive list. An efficient army benefits from the waaagh you call, and infantry shooting simply dont. Which is a shame because i love to use infantry, i was never super keen on mechanized play.
I really dont know what they were thinking by leaving infantry shooting in the dirt like that, and people complain about buggy spam, when its the only way of really making an ork shooting army.
My list runs an outrider and two patrols, using a Bikerboss, wartrike and Squigboss. I could definitely replace the Bikerboss with another Squigboss if I wanted to exchange a blender for a blender.
As far as the infantry shooting goes, I think the only way to do it would be to load up on burnas and kombi skorchas and get up in their faces. We don't have enough infantry based volume to make up for the lack of vehicles, so it kind of relies on the charge after the shooting to mop up. Maybe if you went for 3x lootas, 3x flash gitz, 3x burnas, Shiny Shoota Mek, etc it might work, but then you're a gunline and can't take objectives well.
And as far as avoiding buggy spam goes, you could probably go triple kill tank with giga shootas, with kannon wagons in your heavy slots. You'd be trading off the manoeuverability of the buggies for the durability and raw firepower of the tanks, and still rely on kommandos, stormboys, etc to take objectives but I reckon it could be done as an alternative.
Afrodactyl wrote: My list runs an outrider and two patrols, using a Bikerboss, wartrike and Squigboss. I could definitely replace the Bikerboss with another Squigboss if I wanted to exchange a blender for a blender.
As far as the infantry shooting goes, I think the only way to do it would be to load up on burnas and kombi skorchas and get up in their faces. We don't have enough infantry based volume to make up for the lack of vehicles, so it kind of relies on the charge after the shooting to mop up. Maybe if you went for 3x lootas, 3x flash gitz, 3x burnas, Shiny Shoota Mek, etc it might work, but then you're a gunline and can't take objectives well.
And as far as avoiding buggy spam goes, you could probably go triple kill tank with giga shootas, with kannon wagons in your heavy slots. You'd be trading off the manoeuverability of the buggies for the durability and raw firepower of the tanks, and still rely on kommandos, stormboys, etc to take objectives but I reckon it could be done as an alternative.
but isnt spending 5CP on detatchments even before you spend extra on big boss and extra gubbinz alot? you end up spending like 8CP before the game even starts leaving you with 4CP.
On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?
3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.
With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.
On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?
3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.
With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.
But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?
Afrodactyl wrote: My list runs an outrider and two patrols, using a Bikerboss, wartrike and Squigboss. I could definitely replace the Bikerboss with another Squigboss if I wanted to exchange a blender for a blender.
As far as the infantry shooting goes, I think the only way to do it would be to load up on burnas and kombi skorchas and get up in their faces. We don't have enough infantry based volume to make up for the lack of vehicles, so it kind of relies on the charge after the shooting to mop up. Maybe if you went for 3x lootas, 3x flash gitz, 3x burnas, Shiny Shoota Mek, etc it might work, but then you're a gunline and can't take objectives well.
And as far as avoiding buggy spam goes, you could probably go triple kill tank with giga shootas, with kannon wagons in your heavy slots. You'd be trading off the manoeuverability of the buggies for the durability and raw firepower of the tanks, and still rely on kommandos, stormboys, etc to take objectives but I reckon it could be done as an alternative.
but isnt spending 5CP on detatchments even before you spend extra on big boss and extra gubbinz alot? you end up spending like 8CP before the game even starts leaving you with 4CP.
I start each game with 4CP and I only really use cloud of smoke and ramming speed as my go to strats, with careen and tide of muscle being situational back ups. You get an extra every turn for rerolls, so I don't really find myself needing more.
Yeah I agree, 4-5 CP works fine for me as well.
Ramming Speed is by far my most used strat, followed by CoS & FFB.
5 CP is the sweet spot for me, because that way I can pop all 3 strats turn 1 if there is the need for it.
Otherwise 3-5 CP for detachments and another 2-4 (depending on list) for relics/ wl traits is a good investment for orks and gives us more than having 10 CP.
But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?
Yeah it's one per detachment, no matter what kind of warboss.
Grotrebel wrote: Yeah I agree, 4-5 CP works fine for me as well.
Ramming Speed is by far my most used strat, followed by CoS & FFB.
5 CP is the sweet spot for me, because that way I can pop all 3 strats turn 1 if there is the need for it.
Otherwise 3-5 CP for detachments and another 2-4 (depending on list) for relics/ wl traits is a good investment for orks and gives us more than having 10 CP.
Until there's an expansion book giving us some more strats, we effectively only really have 3 or 4 usable ones. I don't see the need in starting with more than a handful of CP.
The list features a strong waaagh push whatever turn you declare it.
I have dipped into a strong alpha strike, gotten some buggies to clear anything that might overwatch threat a charge, and feature bikers because they get the most benefit from ghaz (25 pts for all those stats during waagh is pretty good I think).
I have a deathskulls detachment to contest middle board objectives after the big strike wave hits and ghaz, makari, and the KFF can help push the tide of boys slowly up the board and /w goffs they can push back.
On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?
3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.
With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.
you can only put down 1 warboss type per detatchment. so no
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Grotrebel wrote: Yeah I agree, 4-5 CP works fine for me as well.
Ramming Speed is by far my most used strat, followed by CoS & FFB.
5 CP is the sweet spot for me, because that way I can pop all 3 strats turn 1 if there is the need for it.
Otherwise 3-5 CP for detachments and another 2-4 (depending on list) for relics/ wl traits is a good investment for orks and gives us more than having 10 CP.
But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?
Yeah it's one per detachment, no matter what kind of warboss.
I see. Well cloud of smoke, ramming speed and if i run warbikers, More dakka is also useful. Sometimes careen i guess, and the occational overwatch.
Still it seem like 5CP isnt really that much. But i guess ill try and work with it for a change. Ill be getting 2 squig bosses soon to try it out.
On a different subject, Do you guys ever have shooting armies with 2 squigbosses?
3 patrols would yield 6 fast attack slots, the slot we need for our buggies, so an outrider and a patrol would be better there (8 slots then), but you could only fit 1 squig boss then, as the other spot is reserved for the wartrike or warboss on warbike.
With two detachments, like 2x patrols or patrol + outrider, you get 4 slots for the HQs. You can fit 2 squig bosses, a wartrike and a biker boss all together.
But aren't there limitations on taking more than one Boss per detachment?
There are, you're right. Totally forgot about that since I never took, or even considered, more than one warboss/speedboss in my lists.
It is possible to field three detachments including two squigosaur and a speedboss though. I think that both wartrike and biker boss are redundant and only one of those, to call the speedwaaagh, should be needed if there are already two squigosaurs in the list.
Just read an interesting question regarding Tankbustas.
Guy asked if you run Goff Tankbusters, whether or not the Tankhammer can explode and grant extra hits.
I would argue yeah since there is no rule precluding this, but the counter argument was that since it only allows 1 attack, that as soon as that attack hits the weapon and bearer die therefore no 2nd hit can be generated.
We have a history of single use weapons being able to dish out extra hits/attacks. For instance, in 8th, the Squigbomb was a single use item, but if you rolled a 6 to hit with it then Dakka Dakka Dakka kicked in and you could end up with 2 hits instead of 1.
Anyone else have a good reason why it wouldn't be the case?
In my opinion, the extra hit is also a hit generated by that attack, but I'd probably take it to YMDC. The 2d6MW isn't really an argument, as a unit of 15 can already deal 3d6MW and no one cares.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone else have a good reason why it wouldn't be the case?
The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.
Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.
this. i Asked the same question long ago and the result of that discussion was, that a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.
The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.
Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.
Afrodactyl wrote: It's either you get an additional hit and do more mortal wounds, or you get an additional hit and resolve it with an alternative weapon.
It depends on how the wording is interpreted and is one of those wonderful things that is worded terribly and spawns a nightmare of a YMDC thread.
I err towards the latter because one infantry model putting out 2d6 mortals seems a touch silly.
Beardedragon wrote: a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.
So you wouldnt get 2D6MW from one tank hammer.
Right, I get that entirely, but I am just pointing out that it did hit...but now because of the goff special rule, it hit TWICE As far as causing mortal wounds the argument I see is that you don't get to transfer hits to other weapons. So if I make 5 attacks with a Choppa/PK Nob and put all those attacks on the Choppa, I can't turn those hits into PK swings just because I want to, you have to declare what weapon you are using prior to rolling to hit. As it stands that means the Tank hammer has 2 hits from the same attack, so you have to resolve both with the tank hammer, and the tank hammer's ability kicks in twice for that exact reason. And if you follow the order of operations in the fight phase, you resolve hits first before removing casualties, either theirs or your own which means that the single use Tankhammer would in fact be dolling out 2D6 Mortal wounds.
As far as the comment about it being a 17pt model dealing 2D6 mortal wounds..I mean yeah...but if you have 3 of them in a maxed out squad of 15 you are at best averaging a 50% chance of getting a single 6 to hit because its only 1 attack per model with the Tank hammer and only if you are a Goff...which isn't exactly prime Tankbusta kulture to say the least I wouldn't build a list around this idea it was more of a factual based argument about whether or not it would/should work. As it currently stands I still don't see any argument for it not working based exclusively on rules. I understand the argument for why you think it shouldn't work, but none of them were based on rules that exist in the game atm.
The wording of the Tankhammer ability is "if that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed." - emphasis mine.
Additional hits beyond the first do not cause additional mortal wounds. Only the initial attack can cause mortal wounds.
Afrodactyl wrote: It's either you get an additional hit and do more mortal wounds, or you get an additional hit and resolve it with an alternative weapon.
It depends on how the wording is interpreted and is one of those wonderful things that is worded terribly and spawns a nightmare of a YMDC thread.
I err towards the latter because one infantry model putting out 2d6 mortals seems a touch silly.
Beardedragon wrote: a roll of 6 would grant an extra hit, but with str user, 0 ap and 1 damage. because abilities dont proc twice, even if he can hit twice.
So you wouldnt get 2D6MW from one tank hammer.
Right, I get that entirely, but I am just pointing out that it did hit...but now because of the goff special rule, it hit TWICE As far as causing mortal wounds the argument I see is that you don't get to transfer hits to other weapons. So if I make 5 attacks with a Choppa/PK Nob and put all those attacks on the Choppa, I can't turn those hits into PK swings just because I want to, you have to declare what weapon you are using prior to rolling to hit. As it stands that means the Tank hammer has 2 hits from the same attack, so you have to resolve both with the tank hammer, and the tank hammer's ability kicks in twice for that exact reason. And if you follow the order of operations in the fight phase, you resolve hits first before removing casualties, either theirs or your own which means that the single use Tankhammer would in fact be dolling out 2D6 Mortal wounds.
As far as the comment about it being a 17pt model dealing 2D6 mortal wounds..I mean yeah...but if you have 3 of them in a maxed out squad of 15 you are at best averaging a 50% chance of getting a single 6 to hit because its only 1 attack per model with the Tank hammer and only if you are a Goff...which isn't exactly prime Tankbusta kulture to say the least I wouldn't build a list around this idea it was more of a factual based argument about whether or not it would/should work. As it currently stands I still don't see any argument for it not working based exclusively on rules. I understand the argument for why you think it shouldn't work, but none of them were based on rules that exist in the game atm.
As far as im aware, no you would not, because as much as the tankhammer is a "weapon" it does not have a weapon profile. This is why the old bomb squigs worked with dakka dakka, because it had an actual weapons profile, but the old tankhammers never worked, because they dont have a profile to attack with.
Abilities cannot proc twice in such a manner, and as far as i recall they never could. Your secondary attack has to proc its attack profile, but because the tankhammer doesnt have profile, and it only has an ability effect, you would have to end your attack with an attack str user, 0 ap and 1 damage.
The chances of this happening is irrelevant, i like you, made the argument that it should work. But ive since then found out that it does not, in fact work. Because a tankhammer has no stats, it only has an ability. And abilities do not trigger twice. Thats why bomb squigs used to work, because they were not abilities, but had weapon sheets. So your tankhammer would proc its ability first, then with the secondary hit, it would just be a str user, no ap, 1 damage hit because it has no other profile to hit twice with.
The tank hammer does have a profile, it's just that strength, AP and damage are irrelevant as you will never reach the "to wound" step. Old tank hammers didn't work because goff used to get extra attacks, and you are not allowed to make extra attacks. You are not limited in any way as to how often a single attack can hit, see any unit with sweeping attacks.
It's one attack that hits twice. Each of those hits fulfills the requirement for the weapon's ability, so each hit does d6MW and kills the wielder.
The extra hit is the "proc", the ability is static/condition based. As Semper has pointed out the S:User interpretation is actually AGAINST the rules, so it cannot possibly be true.
And there is a precedent for this in the codex already - if your squiggosaur rolls sixes for its jaws, it will get extra hits with the jaw's profile that will deal MW when they roll high enough. It's essentially the same thing.
Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.
because effects dont proc twice.
Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.
I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.
isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.
I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.
Beardedragon wrote: Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.
because effects dont proc twice.
Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.
I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.
isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.
I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.
Extra Hits are treated as being a numberless hit-so if a 6 to-hit generates an extra hit AND automatically wounds, you get 1 auto-wound and 1 extra hit, not 2 auto-wounding hits.
Beardedragon wrote: Im fairly confident theres a rule that states, that if an attack has an ability connected to it, if for what ever reason that attack gets two hits, like goff 6s, only the first attack will have the effect.
because effects dont proc twice.
Of course saying that im not near my rules book so i cant fully verify it. nor can i remember if it was an FAQ.
I just remember that Abilities dont trigger twice, even if you get one attack with two hits.
isnt it like a normal generalist advanced rule or something.
I also dont understand what you mean the tankhammer has a profile, as far as i can see, it doesnt have any numbers attatched to str, AP nor damage.
Extra Hits are treated as being a numberless hit-so if a 6 to-hit generates an extra hit AND automatically wounds, you get 1 auto-wound and 1 extra hit, not 2 auto-wounding hits.
If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.
Honestly, you're probably better off just using them to shoot.
3 Tankhammers, with exploding hits on a 5+, gets you 3 hits on average. 10.5 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at... But is it worth losing the shooting, all the points invested, and using the strat on a unit that's not that great in melee relative to some other ones?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.
Honestly, you're probably better off just using them to shoot.
3 Tankhammers, with exploding hits on a 5+, gets you 3 hits on average. 10.5 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at... But is it worth losing the shooting, all the points invested, and using the strat on a unit that's not that great in melee relative to some other ones?
Yeah, it's one thing if you could maximize just taking tankhammers in a unit of five as a suicide squad, but being forced to take a unit of 15 to grab 3 tankhammers in a unit who can be interrupted or overwatched on the way in, and basically neutering the unit's shooting assuming you whiff your hits means that you may as well just invest in more consistent shooting or CC to deal damage.
I have run tripple tank hammers quite a lot (because PL crusade without WYSIWYG is dumb), and their most common application is being the first three casualties you pull from a mob
but how the hell do you explain this to people if you run Goff tankbustas with tankhammers? The moment you open your dity mouth about how exploding 6s should give another D6mortal wounds of damage, people will give you the: that guy" look.
hell i wouldnt even be able to explain it because i dont even understand why its meant to work.
To be fair im not even fully sold on the idea that it IS how its meant to work.
Ill just stay clear off tankhammers with goff i guess. I actually made an early sketch of a list with goff tankhammers based on my best army from the previous codex. Because as i said i thought it worked at the start of this codex, but even if you say all this im not really sold thats how it works.
But its fine. ill try not get in to these weird situations where "technically" someone is correct because of a selection of rare rules happen to allign correctly.
Anyway we dont have to keep talking about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an issue though that id like to get some help with.
a month ago i ran the usual freebootas buggy list with some dakkajets, warbikers and what not and bla bla bla. I played against Deathguard and he brough Mortarion. When it was my turn i came to the conclusion that me, being freebootas, fighting against death guard who has mortarion, is a rather gakky situation. Because when fighting mortarion you would preferably rush him down as fast as you can, but unless you dedicate your shooting to attacking something ELSE first to proc that +1 to hit, then you would essentially fire all your guns at mortarion and it would be like you had no klan kulture at all. No kills, no "klan kulture" effects.
So do you smash all your guns (or relevant guns) at mortarion or do you actually "waste" some of your guns shooting at something else to kill it, to proc the +1 to hit, before attacking mortarion? Mind you killing death guard is a lengthy process in itself. I feel like killing mortarion turn 1 is already difficult, but killing mortarion while having to kill something else first just to get +1 to hit, is also kind of a difficult thing. And then again, killing mortarion while having no klan kulture because you chose not to killing anything before hand is equally a difficult thing to do.
I feel like its a difficult question that my brain cant really cope with.
Beardedragon wrote: but how the hell do you explain this to people if you run Goff tankbustas with tankhammers? The moment you open your dity mouth about how exploding 6s should give another D6mortal wounds of damage, people will give you the: that guy" look.
hell i wouldnt even be able to explain it because i dont even understand why its meant to work.
To be fair im not even fully sold on the idea that it IS how its meant to work.
Ill just stay clear off tankhammers with goff i guess. I actually made an early sketch of a list with goff tankhammers based on my best army from the previous codex. Because as i said i thought it worked at the start of this codex, but even if you say all this im not really sold thats how it works.
But its fine. ill try not get in to these weird situations where "technically" someone is correct because of a selection of rare rules happen to allign correctly.
I mean, if you take them, I would talk about it before the game even starts.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.
its a laugh for sure, but definitely not competitive. As mentioned, if you roll a full mob of 15 you will need a wagon to transport them, and thats like 1/4th of your army now. And in CC the best they can do is 6D6 mortal wounds which averages out to ...21 Mortal wounds. And that is with insane luck mind you You would be better off running them as freebootas and have them kill things in the shooting phase after killing something so they hit on 4s.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: If all this is true, I’m thinking a mob of 15 Goff-bustas with all the tankhammers and rokkit pistols it can muster in a battlewagon, popping the Goff strat on em could be a laff.
its a laugh for sure, but definitely not competitive. As mentioned, if you roll a full mob of 15 you will need a wagon to transport them, and thats like 1/4th of your army now. And in CC the best they can do is 6D6 mortal wounds which averages out to ...21 Mortal wounds. And that is with insane luck mind you You would be better off running them as freebootas and have them kill things in the shooting phase after killing something so they hit on 4s.
Best case scenario, you're up against a big Vehicle like a Baneblade or a Knight. You do add one to hit rolls even in melee, so you'd get...
I was saying, if you got lucky and rolled 3 to hit rolls with the tankhammers and got all 5s and 6s with the strat the likelihood is incredibly low, possible, but not likely. And at the end of hte day you still only managed 21dmg while the actual tankbusta boyz just mostly bounce off
SemperMortis wrote: I was saying, if you got lucky and rolled 3 to hit rolls with the tankhammers and got all 5s and 6s with the strat the likelihood is incredibly low, possible, but not likely. And at the end of hte day you still only managed 21dmg while the actual tankbusta boyz just mostly bounce off
Yeah. Even if you get the 1/27 odds of three 5+ hit rolls, you won't QUITE kill a Knight on average. 21+14/9=22.56.
Man what a year to play Orks!!!!! I remember when the only kits in the store were stikkbomma boyz and ard boyz how far we have come! So many new models and such a beautiful range and best of all a codex built to win not for comic relief.
Been able to play about a dozen games in 9th edition now and I’m loving it. I’m curious if you all even tried to run 30 boyz units or just chalked it up as a loss and moved on. For me they have been wildly successful. Goffs are really strong in this middle board focused game. The 30 man unit is hard to move with T5 and now paired with a force field that works in close combat and doesn’t require “ fully within” makes them able to spread across a large footprint and still benefit from all the juicy aura buffs. Paired with a Warboss +1 to hit and Ghazghkull rerolling 1s these guys are brutal. Choppas AP-1 is all you could really ask for and with +1 strength on the charge you can really thump. Morale is really not as big a deal as it was in previous editions and a tax of 2 or 3 boys every other turn is hardly even noticed. I think Goff boyz are better than ever and 30 man units are still the way to go. I’m really interested to see how beast snagga boyz play in 10 man units play but I have a lot of painting before that will happen.
The benefit is being able to stretch the unit out to gain the buff while being in a combat across the table. In my experience movement & spacing is the most important part of the game and having that footprint is the advantage I was trying to convey.
Face somebody that debuffs and you wont think that way.
There is literally nothing beneficial to running 30 boyz anymore. Not a damn thing in our codex buffs them that isnt a static aura anyway.
Multiple 10man units gets you: More klaws/saws in the Nob Ability to cover multiple objectives Ability to finesse your aggression since its just a small squad and can easily move around Use transports Waste enemy anti-horde shooting, as they cannot kill more than 10 no matter how mean that gun is without risking leaving some of them alive Deny debuffs from being maximized.
A single 30man squad gets you: Ability to wrap an opponent easier
Had we character buffs that specifically buff a single Core unit, or even just the Boyz, then there would be an argument for it. Thats why 20man Warrior blobs for necrons exist, despite all the negatives they have so many ways to buff them that is not an aura that it outweighs the downside.
I stopped using big blobs of boyz a long time ago, when they were a good tactic still, because the amount of times i'd have 1-2 models in the way drove me nuts. Having a full 25+ mob of boyz slap into 1-2 marines is such an insult. But a 10man boy squad? Meh, not that big a deal. Not to mention i tend to put Kombi Rokkits on the nob, so i get 2 rokkits per 10 rather than 1. Not to mention i face a lot of debuff spells. Getting a full 30man blob hit by Doom is annoying.
If I were to argue against it I would mention multiple units to perform actions as well & Trukk boyz. But now you are spending a lot more points for your 3 10 man units when you pay for 3 rokkits and klaws 2 klaws & 2 rokkits = 1 meganob. Debuff doesn’t matter in I have 4 boys in combat and 22 spread across and objective. Wrapping 22 around is basic day one but yea unnecessary. Using 22 boys that can’t be shot because 4 are in combat to hold a point is better. The idea is to get them in the way and they do require a lot more attention to whittle away than they used too. I’m not arguing against 10 man squads I haven’t ever played them for a horde list but I don’t think the 30 unit is dead in the water like everyone is saying. I’m interested what a tide list of 10 man boy units looks like.
Vineheart01 wrote: …
There is literally nothing beneficial to running 30 boyz anymore. Not a damn thing in our codex buffs them that isnt a static aura anyway.
…
Well, the biggest issue of all now is the moral with the Mob Rule cripled…
How can one keep blobs alive? Paying CP every turn and hope just one of them will be the target?
The goff strat procuring extra hits on 5s and 6s instead of just 6s is a reason to take 30 man blobs instead of 3 times 10.
I played an RTT last sunday with my freebooter vehicule (a dakkajet a wasbom three single scrapjets and three single sguigbuggies) + deathskull infantry list (three 5 kommando mobs and two 5 stormboy mobs), all this with a speedwaaghing Wartrike, a sguigosaure (managed to finish painting the model just in time !) and an obsec mega armour warboss.
I did good, as I won my first two games and lost my last one to the winner of the RTT while going second all three games. Faced Sistas, Deathguard, and nids in that order (lost to nids because Hive guards are broken good in the current meta (they targeted my obsec troops and that was pretty much it from there on), unless you have denbse terrain or a way to proc -1 to be hit). All three lists were top meta variants, piloted by comp/good players, as is usually the case where I play.
I think the sort of list I brought (it is a rather classic archetype by now) has a really good match up against sisters, deathguard, grey knights, and quite a few others. But no LoS firing hurts it badly, especially when going second, so I am unsure the list will hold up as the meta evolves.
Well let me tell you, unless I had been up against drukari, I think a 120 (four 30 blobs) goff hord army with ghaz would have worked pretty fine.
So I wouldn't dismiss what Greenblood is saying. I do think that some match ups are hard though, like grey knights and druk (first one to come to mind). I would have utterly destroyed that tyranid list if I had brought a 120 goff hord.
Greenblood wrote: Man what a year to play Orks!!!!! I remember when the only kits in the store were stikkbomma boyz and ard boyz how far we have come! So many new models and such a beautiful range and best of all a codex built to win not for comic relief.
While I wouldn't exactly agree with "codex built to win" (more like "whoops, it actually works somehow"), but it's definitely a good one. IMO it's the first codex that can take on 4th edition's codex by Phil Kelly and not look like a bland piece of cardboard in comparison.
Vineheart01 wrote: …
There is literally nothing beneficial to running 30 boyz anymore. Not a damn thing in our codex buffs them that isnt a static aura anyway.
…
Well, the biggest issue of all now is the moral with the Mob Rule cripled…
How can one keep blobs alive? Paying CP every turn and hope just one of them will be the target?
You just accept losing around 280 points for a 30 blob with a klaw (can we still get two killsaws on nobs ?) here and there. KFF and painboy (with extra 3 to the feel no pain aura) can mitigate some losses, and you pay 2 cp to auto pass morale here and there. You can lose 3 boyz to other morale tests like Greenblood said.
Again, some match ups are auto lose because some armies trade too good on them, and will delete one in the shooting + psy phase, then one in the fight phase.
Greenblood wrote: If I were to argue against it I would mention multiple units to perform actions as well & Trukk boyz. But now you are spending a lot more points for your 3 10 man units when you pay for 3 rokkits and klaws 2 klaws & 2 rokkits = 1 meganob. Debuff doesn’t matter in I have 4 boys in combat and 22 spread across and objective. Wrapping 22 around is basic day one but yea unnecessary. Using 22 boys that can’t be shot because 4 are in combat to hold a point is better. The idea is to get them in the way and they do require a lot more attention to whittle away than they used too. I’m not arguing against 10 man squads I haven’t ever played them for a horde list but I don’t think the 30 unit is dead in the water like everyone is saying. I’m interested what a tide list of 10 man boy units looks like.
Debuffs matter a lot if you face an army like DG or eldar which have psychic powers and stratagems that can severely hamstring units with psychic powers. They can only use them once, and if 30 models are affected by them, you lose a lot more than when just 10 get hit.
About wrapping, I feel like the need for this has completely disappeared in 9th, since you are no longer relying on a single unit attacking from da jump and survive until the rest of your army survives. In addition, most armies have powefull counter-charge units in place, and if they don't, they can either shoot into combat or make a desperate breakout. With truckboyz, kommadoz, bikers and stormboyz having no trouble getting into the enemy lines, you can just aim to tag as many units as possible and simply reduce shooting by enough to no longer care about units falling back and shooting your chargers.
In my experience, most armies I faced regularly (necrons, DA, drukhari) actually need less shooting to grind down mobs of 30 despite T5. First turn they can just spread their shooting to maximize moral casualties and second turn they shoot and charge to finish them off or at least take them down to a level where they can't deal a lot of damage anymore. Even when I'm playing my DG, which used to struggle vs the old green tide, I can now take down mobs of 30 with little troubles, especially when one of the terminator units get involved.
A list of 10 strong mobs essentially tries to get around fielding boyz as much as possible. Kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers are pretty much boyz, but better. You essentially max out those and add some boyz for objective holding.
I would say currently contemptors with volkite are THE hard counter to toughness 5 tee shirt save boyz.
So actually; boyz suck. in 10, in 30, they suck.
Kommandos and stormboyz can avoid getting shot before they charge, the rest just suck.
Trukk boyz too I guess but I don't want to pay for a trukk (I know some make them work but they are just not for me).
Jidmah doesn't seem to face many of them hah hah. Must be nice to play in a less comp environment from time to time.
People don't bring stuff like that to crusades. Plus people are very careful of investing into FW resin after they have been culling units left and right. The only contemptors I have faced are counts-as leviathans.
The issue with 9th edition matched play is that it's super repetitive and is boring people, so it completely died here. Only a hand full of WAAC people held on to it, but they have ran out of opponents. For that reason, I don't really have much to contribute outside of general unit strategies these days.
Mind you, the game is more fun that way especially since orks have great crusade rules. My Waaagh! has already usurped its Waaagh! Boss twice
That said, even in 50PL crusade games, no one as any issues evaporating blobs of 30 boyz. I'd always go with trukk boyz because you can use scrap to slap silly kustom jobs on their ride.
So I've just realised that the Squigboss and two smasha squigs I'm running basically in their own detachment is exactly the same cost in points as a giga shoota kill tank, and I actually end up with more CP. I may have to have a go
Ok I get it this is a buggy boy forum. I’ll leave you all to argue about scrapjets for 30 more pages. But remember I was the guy who told you Goff green tide is still alive and well. Go try for yourself.
That's a dishonest representation of the arguments that have been presented to you. If you were just looking for praise and confirmation, I can assure you that this community is not the right one for you. I hope you find one more to your liking.
Greenblood wrote: Ok I get it this is a buggy boy forum. I’ll leave you all to argue about scrapjets for 30 more pages. But remember I was the guy who told you Goff green tide is still alive and well. Go try for yourself.
Out of curiosity, what armies do your usual opponents play? I play Goffs against DG, BA, or Necrons usually and my boys almost never survive more than 2 turns unless they are cowering behind LOS blocking terrain, 30 man blob or not.
Jidmah wrote: People don't bring stuff like that to crusades. Plus people are very careful of investing into FW resin after they have been culling units left and right. The only contemptors I have faced are counts-as leviathans.
The issue with 9th edition matched play is that it's super repetitive and is boring people, so it completely died here. Only a hand full of WAAC people held on to it, but they have ran out of opponents. For that reason, I don't really have much to contribute outside of general unit strategies these days.
Mind you, the game is more fun that way especially since orks have great crusade rules. My Waaagh! has already usurped its Waaagh! Boss twice
That said, even in 50PL crusade games, no one as any issues evaporating blobs of 30 boyz. I'd always go with trukk boyz because you can use scrap to slap silly kustom jobs on their ride.
I agree that 9th edition matched play is quite repetitive, but I think the people I play have forgotten what it is like to play in any other way than competitively. I remember very well (how I found ways to tone down lists and all) but I think I will just have to try alternative builds and get my ass kicked.
Gungo in the army list section presented a pretty nice "non speedwaagh" list with two kill rigs, so I will try a variant of that when my second kill rig (the real model) is ready for play.
But yeah, once you have faced all the common archetypes (a few have eluded me so far), 9th ed matched play does seem like all games will be kind of similar. The preset terrain shares a lot of the blame IMHO, its not just "meta armies"
Greenblood wrote: Ok I get it this is a buggy boy forum. I’ll leave you all to argue about scrapjets for 30 more pages. But remember I was the guy who told you Goff green tide is still alive and well. Go try for yourself.
You voiced your point of view and opinion, and were presented arguments that pointed out critical flaws on it. It's up to you to prove your point of view not to us.
All I read is people arguing against your case... if you can't deal with that then your the one expecting to be applauded for your opinion not us.
Present credible evidence of your idea and I am sure you will get heard.
I was even going to point that ,from your limited experience, that you haven't shown anything to validate your case
meck with bubble? sure also affects other things so it's not really relevant
warboss with +1? sure but that also affects other stuff so it's not really relevant
You mentioned you can stretch 30 to interrupt and maintain control of a point, same thing can happen with just 2 units of 10. 10 to take and do actions 10 to interrupt.. not sure what's your point. add to that that yours's is still vulnerable to morale and blast and costing more..
So... I can't seem to see the advantage you mentioned...
The question is pretty simple, what are the advantages of 30 boy's versus bringing 2/3x10 or another unit. What play's can you say are possible with 30 that won't be available with 3x10 or 2x10.
Nowhere in my post did i say buggies are better. They are, but theyre also a totally different playstyle. You dont HAVE to use buggies to do good in this codex, theyre just the obvious one.
I simply said multiple x10 > less x30.
True there is the Goff strat, forgot bout that one, but how often do you swing with more than ~14 bodies anyway? The rest are either dead by the time they charge or bogged down behind the tide so they cant swing anyway.
So I asked had anyone actually tried it in 9th and the answers I got essentially amounted to a resounding no.
I admit I was skeptical of it when I read the new codex. I came here to say after play testing it against a lot of different opponents it actually works surprisingly well. Better than in 8th edition when it was very good.
People are counter arguing points I never made. I never advocating to wrap units. I never said stormboyz and kommandos aren’t good they are boyz I’m here saying boyz are good. I’m not sure what you all want from boyz that you didn’t get in the new book. If you want to doom a unit of my troops that is a win in my book. It’s laughable to say I have limited experience when I have been playing this game since the 90s. I read this whole thread and saw plenty of people asking about tide lists and getting shut down by people who never even tried it or stopped several editions ago. If you can’t figure out how a giant footprint is helpful to an aura based army I can’t really help you succeed. If you can’t see how playing a list nobody is building to counter is an advantage I can’t help you. I came to say that if you try it you may be pleasantly surprised and all I heard is people telling me they won’t try it. I understand the benefits of multiple 10 man units but it seems nobody wants to understand the benefits I am pointing out. Kudos to you for realizing that Goff auras affect units other than boyz. Doesn’t make it any less effective for helping boys because my stormboyz and meganobz also benefit. 30 man boyz at T5 with an invulnerable are somehow easier to kill than a 5 man unit of kommandos in cover according to the people countering my points so why should I explain any further.
3+ vs 6+ means that 15 Kommandos in cover are harder to shift than 30 Boys.
Obscuring terrain means a 5-Kommando squad might only be targetable by NLoS shooting. 30 Boys will almost never be out of line of sight.
Do you have any battle reports to share, where your 30-Boy squads did good work?
The way i see it, Boys are not useful in this codex. That doesnt mean a semi horde with lots of infantry cant be useful, but it wont be boys. It will be something with 30-45 storm boys, and 30-45 kommandos.
Not 90 boys, simply over how much more you get for those kommandos and stormboys.
Greenblood wrote: Ok I get it this is a buggy boy forum. I’ll leave you all to argue about scrapjets for 30 more pages. But remember I was the guy who told you Goff green tide is still alive and well. Go try for yourself.
Hmm, check Vineherat or SemperMortis posts in previous ork tactic thread. They are definitely not a buggy boyz. And not only them. Green tide had a big fun club here few moths ago.
But as you could see in old discussion from summer, they gave it a serious try. Couple of tries. And this was very much unsuccesfull.
Anyway, do not hesite to try it again. Maybe you find the way people here missed. Codex is new, some new units hardly used at all. A lot of space for new discoveries.
So I was thinking of trying a little 500 point list. Snikrot and as many kommandos I can fit, with all the melee wargear. Thoughts?
Might be better to go blood axes, but snikrot is just a proppa lad, shame I can’t specialist lad him.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: So I was thinking of trying a little 500 point list. Snikrot and as many kommandos I can fit, with all the melee wargear. Thoughts?
Might be better to go blood axes, but snikrot is just a proppa lad, shame I can’t specialist lad him.
Here's something I threw together for a laugh. I actually like it though and might have to give it a try one day
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: So I was thinking of trying a little 500 point list. Snikrot and as many kommandos I can fit, with all the melee wargear. Thoughts?
Might be better to go blood axes, but snikrot is just a proppa lad, shame I can’t specialist lad him.
Sounds difficult, but possible. A lot of games at 500 points are won by simply sitting on more objectives than your opponent, and with kommadoz you should have no issues shutting down shooting units. Using the blood axe stratagem to protect a unit and have it walk on somwhere they cannot be shot also seems like a game winner.
There are just three things I'd be aware of:
1) Snikrot is not a warboss, so you would need to bring an actual warboss if you want a Waaagh!. Most options are too expensive, so the only real solution is to have a foot warboss with a relic/warlord trait.
2) At 500 points, you must run a patrol, which means mandatory troops. 'orrible gits blow on small tables because of their debuff aura, but then again you don't have a lot of shooting going on. Personally, I'd prefer boyz, but that will severely reduce your other options.
3) You will most likely not be able to challenge any enemy units through shooting, so if you lose a flank, your opponent will be able to score there unchallenged, even if it's one character camping out in the open.
we recently started a campaign and the first few games are at 25pl (500pts).
Yeah, 500pt games are weird. I brought 1 squigbuggy and it just...melted everything remotely threatening since it could reach across the board and is AP3 during the SpeedWaaagh (AP4 on 6s because Badmoonz hehe)
I've always been of the opinion 500pt games are not supposed to be played. Anything beyond basic troops feels extremely swingy since the odds of it being countered are very low.
Greenblood wrote: So I asked had anyone actually tried it in 9th and the answers I got essentially amounted to a resounding no.
I admit I was skeptical of it when I read the new codex. I came here to say after play testing it against a lot of different opponents it actually works surprisingly well. Better than in 8th edition when it was very good.
People are counter arguing points I never made. I never advocating to wrap units. I never said stormboyz and kommandos aren’t good they are boyz I’m here saying boyz are good. I’m not sure what you all want from boyz that you didn’t get in the new book. If you want to doom a unit of my troops that is a win in my book. It’s laughable to say I have limited experience when I have been playing this game since the 90s. I read this whole thread and saw plenty of people asking about tide lists and getting shut down by people who never even tried it or stopped several editions ago. If you can’t figure out how a giant footprint is helpful to an aura based army I can’t really help you succeed. If you can’t see how playing a list nobody is building to counter is an advantage I can’t help you. I came to say that if you try it you may be pleasantly surprised and all I heard is people telling me they won’t try it. I understand the benefits of multiple 10 man units but it seems nobody wants to understand the benefits I am pointing out. Kudos to you for realizing that Goff auras affect units other than boyz. Doesn’t make it any less effective for helping boys because my stormboyz and meganobz also benefit. 30 man boyz at T5 with an invulnerable are somehow easier to kill than a 5 man unit of kommandos in cover according to the people countering my points so why should I explain any further.
First, when i mentioned limited experience, is because the codex has been out for only a few months. So maybe i wasn't clear, but that no one is an authority. We can at best share our experiences.
No where did i mentioned 30 boys are bad. But on the current set up is hard to argue for their benefits. That's why people are counter arguing you.
Is 30 wounds big footprint bad? Ofc not. But this is just 1 piece of the puzzle. From my own limited experience i also can say these same 30 wounds at t5 and 6s can easily go up in smoke with proper tools.
Most players i played use shooty armies or competitive lists.. this makes 30 blobs easy pickings. For comparison with Kommandos for 10 more pt you get cover save and deploy where ever you want at no cost. And still bring the same tools you mentioned. At 10 you can even give an extra weapon improving your Kommandos profile while being just as efficient as boys. They also benefits from the same reasons you mentioned. Warlord and bubble also dock if you want to add more defensive traits.
It's not that boy's are bad. More like we have other units that can do the same, get same results or more, and still be same or close to cost.
You can agree with me on this at least. I would compare boys currently to deff dreads. can they work? Sure. Are there better tools? Yes
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: So I was thinking of trying a little 500 point list. Snikrot and as many kommandos I can fit, with all the melee wargear. Thoughts?
Might be better to go blood axes, but snikrot is just a proppa lad, shame I can’t specialist lad him.
Sounds difficult, but possible. A lot of games at 500 points are won by simply sitting on more objectives than your opponent, and with kommadoz you should have no issues shutting down shooting units. Using the blood axe stratagem to protect a unit and have it walk on somwhere they cannot be shot also seems like a game winner.
There are just three things I'd be aware of:
1) Snikrot is not a warboss, so you would need to bring an actual warboss if you want a Waaagh!. Most options are too expensive, so the only real solution is to have a foot warboss with a relic/warlord trait.
2) At 500 points, you must run a patrol, which means mandatory troops. 'orrible gits blow on small tables because of their debuff aura, but then again you don't have a lot of shooting going on. Personally, I'd prefer boyz, but that will severely reduce your other options.
3) You will most likely not be able to challenge any enemy units through shooting, so if you lose a flank, your opponent will be able to score there unchallenged, even if it's one character camping out in the open.
Wait, Snikrot isn’t a warboss? I swear they always make guys like him, zagstrukk, and grotsnik the most subpar zoggers. Maybe go deffskullz, get an opportunist big mek with ded shiny shoota in a trukkboyz trukk, kommandos ahead screwing things up.
I agree wholeheartedly that kommandos & stormboyz are good. I also agree & more importantly the results agree that there are better lists out there.
From what I read people are giving up on boyz without even trying. While at the same time acting like units with the same profile and a few different abilities are the only viable options. I personally run 3 squads of both stormboyz & kommandos in 5 man units but as a Goff player I need obsec. I love the new Zagstruck rules he is infinitely better than he used to be and doesn’t take a Warboss slot. You still have a lot of room for toys & specialty units when you are running 3 blobs. Specifically I gear towards retrieving octarius data & stranglehold/ engage depending on the map. Minimal units of storm/kommandos accomplish this easily and the big units of boys take the heat and hold the primaries for stranglehold. I don’t think a 10 man unit or even a couple would be as affective as an attention grabber or psychological threat.
Obviously I’m not here to convince somebody who already owns 10 buggies to dust off their boys. I’m here for the guys who are discouraged by the new rules and don’t want to buy/build a whole new army. I’m here to say they don’t need too.
Do you really think after running Goff boyz for years I haven’t faced shooting based armies? That’s who I want to face! If your getting your stuff shot off before it gets to combat you are not deploying effectively.
I mean if people need confirmation on a forum that more then buggy spam is playable and sometimes decent in most matchups feel free to enjoy your
Buggy spam lists
trukk boy lists
Walker lists
Ghaz goff Greentide lists
triple patrol kommodo/storm trooper spam
Beastsnagga squig lists
Warbiker lists
Enjoy your evil suns, bloodaxes, deathskulls, goffs, snakebites, freebooter and even badmoon (which kinda is the least competitve).
If you build and play any ork lists well enough they are all viable..
heck even the stompa is playable this edition…
You can probbaly win a small local tournament with any of those lists…
But when people talk about buggy lists being the most competitive it’s based on the fact they keep winning or placing high in tournaments. This doesn’t mean you can’t use anything else in the codex or that that’s the only way to play.
The list I made in the list section on dakka isn’t the most competitive. I don’t know if 18x squigbuggy/scrapjet is the best list for tournaments. I just know I don’t enjoy spamming 2 unit lists and I like a little more variety. And I also don’t want to buy 11x more buggies. (I’m already proxing 1x squigbuggy in my current list) So I wanted some melee boys to scrap it up. It’s competitive enough for me to enjoy playing and win most matchups…
So bottom line is yes 3x 30x ghaz goff greentide is viable to play. Is it better then trukk boy, kommando, stormboy spam? I don’t think so, but in the right player hands it can be. Personally I enjoy my 2x snaggaboys. They are annoying enough to deal with after the Killrig is destroyed and are decent vs most vehicles and monsters.
On a more important note…. Are we even getting anything this campaign book?
Greenblood wrote: Man what a year to play Orks!!!!! I remember when the only kits in the store were stikkbomma boyz and ard boyz how far we have come! So many new models and such a beautiful range and best of all a codex built to win not for comic relief.
While I wouldn't exactly agree with "codex built to win" (more like "whoops, it actually works somehow"), but it's definitely a good one. IMO it's the first codex that can take on 4th edition's codex by Phil Kelly and not look like a bland piece of cardboard in comparison.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. GW was pushing Squig riders and Beast boyz super hard and ironically they accidentally made other builds way better
Greenblood wrote: Ok I get it this is a buggy boy forum. I’ll leave you all to argue about scrapjets for 30 more pages. But remember I was the guy who told you Goff green tide is still alive and well. Go try for yourself.
Definitely not a Buggy player. In fact I have been winning smaller scale tournaments without using a single buggy in my lists. Closest thing ive used are trukkz.
Greenblood wrote: So I asked had anyone actually tried it in 9th and the answers I got essentially amounted to a resounding no.
I admit I was skeptical of it when I read the new codex. I came here to say after play testing it against a lot of different opponents it actually works surprisingly well. Better than in 8th edition when it was very good.
People are counter arguing points I never made. I never advocating to wrap units. I never said stormboyz and kommandos aren’t good they are boyz I’m here saying boyz are good. I’m not sure what you all want from boyz that you didn’t get in the new book. If you want to doom a unit of my troops that is a win in my book. It’s laughable to say I have limited experience when I have been playing this game since the 90s. I read this whole thread and saw plenty of people asking about tide lists and getting shut down by people who never even tried it or stopped several editions ago. If you can’t figure out how a giant footprint is helpful to an aura based army I can’t really help you succeed. If you can’t see how playing a list nobody is building to counter is an advantage I can’t help you. I came to say that if you try it you may be pleasantly surprised and all I heard is people telling me they won’t try it. I understand the benefits of multiple 10 man units but it seems nobody wants to understand the benefits I am pointing out. Kudos to you for realizing that Goff auras affect units other than boyz. Doesn’t make it any less effective for helping boys because my stormboyz and meganobz also benefit. 30 man boyz at T5 with an invulnerable are somehow easier to kill than a 5 man unit of kommandos in cover according to the people countering my points so why should I explain any further.
So I literally have 2 polls on General discussion about Boyz, specifically about whether or not they are competitive. When the codex first came out the results were pretty heavily skewed in favor of Boyz being competitive, a Month into the Codex and it went completely the other way. I have analyzed them to no end and I can say without a shadow of a doubt they are NOT competitive.
First off, and most damning, Morale. Loss of Mob rule and leadership aura from the warboss (Turned into a 2CP strat) means that Morale is crushing to orkz. So old Ork hordes were 120ish models in 4 mobz. Opponents in 8th would single a mob out and destroy it utterly because of the CP strats to bring them back from the dead if they even had 1 model left. Now? Not so much. Against a competent opponent they are going to kill 24 orkz in 4 mobz. So now instead of killing 30 they only have to kill 24. What is the difference? You lose 6 in each mob, you then fail morale, you then are down to 23 models and likely lose another 4 per mob to morale, congrats the enemy kill 24, Morale killed 20. The enemy focused LESS on the boyz than before but still managed to kill about 50% more...which is even worse because THEY COST MORE! Point for point an Ork used to be about 2.5x cheaper than a Space Marine, Now they are only 2x cheaper, To add insult to injury those Marines are literally TWICE as durable as before while the boyz only gained T5 which is a 33 (at best) % boost to durability. Another fact is that as mentioned they lost most of their good stratagems which pushed them from being mediocre to good. No green tide, no mob up, no fight twice etc. To add more to that, Evil sunz lost +1 to charge which means you can't deep strike a big mob of them and reliably get in CC, especially teamed with the double nerf of Ere we go losing either 1 or 2 dice re-rolls AND the Weirdboy losing his + to cast when near boyz which means Da Jump is also less reliable than ever before. And of course their is the KFF losing its 5++ and becoming a 6++.
Put all of that together and they just aren't worth it in large mobz. Morale is honestly the biggest killer, but the fact that they are slower than ever, more expensive than ever, no reliable buffs to mention...they just don't serve a purpose, especially in a codex that has Kommandos and Stormboyz in it. There is a reason that no competitive players except 1 are bringing Boyz in any kind of numbers, and even that 1 guy is only bringing them in MSU mobz. I'm basically alone in that I am bringing 3 mobz of trukk boyz in 3 detachments to games, and the only reason they function is because they are teamed with a plethora of other alpha strike units which overload my opponents ability to deal with all the threats.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: So I was thinking of trying a little 500 point list. Snikrot and as many kommandos I can fit, with all the melee wargear. Thoughts?
Might be better to go blood axes, but snikrot is just a proppa lad, shame I can’t specialist lad him.
Sounds difficult, but possible. A lot of games at 500 points are won by simply sitting on more objectives than your opponent, and with kommadoz you should have no issues shutting down shooting units. Using the blood axe stratagem to protect a unit and have it walk on somwhere they cannot be shot also seems like a game winner.
There are just three things I'd be aware of:
1) Snikrot is not a warboss, so you would need to bring an actual warboss if you want a Waaagh!. Most options are too expensive, so the only real solution is to have a foot warboss with a relic/warlord trait.
2) At 500 points, you must run a patrol, which means mandatory troops. 'orrible gits blow on small tables because of their debuff aura, but then again you don't have a lot of shooting going on. Personally, I'd prefer boyz, but that will severely reduce your other options.
3) You will most likely not be able to challenge any enemy units through shooting, so if you lose a flank, your opponent will be able to score there unchallenged, even if it's one character camping out in the open.
Wait, Snikrot isn’t a warboss? I swear they always make guys like him, zagstrukk, and grotsnik the most subpar zoggers. Maybe go deffskullz, get an opportunist big mek with ded shiny shoota in a trukkboyz trukk, kommandos ahead screwing things up.
Snikrot not being a warboss is a good thing IMO, because I can bring (I have yet to try it on a tabletop though) a Sguigboss/Mozrog AND snikrot in a Blood axe patrol. I think this more than compensates for the +1 to hit aura or the 5++.
I think if boyz were 8 points and trukks were 60 points, then running a mechanized goff list could be fun. But both boyz and trukks are slightly overcosted right now. Not terrible, but definitely mediocre.
Its a little bit of a shame, that neither warbosses or the banner-nob helps mitigate morale. They could also have made the weirdboy better, by giving him a morale boosting spell, or something.
So what's the best way to run Mega Nobz and in what kind of list?
I plan on running 4 Mega Nobz together with a Killa Klaw Warboss and 10 Grots in a Battlewagon with 'Ard case, Deffrolla and Fortress on Wheels. This is in an Evil Sunz Detachment with Trukkboyz, Scrapjets and Kommandos.
The plan is to drive them forward to the middle ojective. If the Wagon gets blown up, the Grots can take the damage. Next turn the MANz jump out and go punch the nearest enemy unit near the objetive. Buffed by the Warboss they hit on 3+. If the Warboss can reach something else while staying in buffing range, then that is perfect.
If the Battlewagon survives the first turn, it will go after any enemy non-melee units.
Evil Sunz kultur buffing them from M4" to M5" should be a nice bonus.
Bonde wrote: So what's the best way to run Mega Nobz and in what kind of list?
I plan on running 4 Mega Nobz together with a Killa Klaw Warboss and 10 Grots in a Battlewagon with 'Ard case, Deffrolla and Fortress on Wheels. This is in an Evil Sunz Detachment with Trukkboyz, Scrapjets and Kommandos.
The plan is to drive them forward to the middle ojective. If the Wagon gets blown up, the Grots can take the damage. Next turn the MANz jump out and go punch the nearest enemy unit near the objetive. Buffed by the Warboss they hit on 3+. If the Warboss can reach something else while staying in buffing range, then that is perfect.
If the Battlewagon survives the first turn, it will go after any enemy non-melee units.
Evil Sunz kultur buffing them from M4" to M5" should be a nice bonus.
I personally would say either as a Deathskulls unit to sit on an objective in the middle of the board and be obnoxious to remove, or as trukkboys to make up for their low movement and to be an old school MANz missile.
Take with a pinch of salt though as I haven't used them at all since the new book came out.
Goffs also, to give them more punch thanks to exploding 6s and possibly 5s.
I run 5 in Forktress BW shared with 10 boyz. 10 gretchins instead of boyz are also a legit choice.
I'd avoid putting a warboss in there, too many eggs in the same basket. With Goffs or Big Krumpaz bonuses, possibly also the waaagh one (which I don't use), they're killy enough.
It could be fun to try using a larger mob of 6 MegaNobz as Trukkboyz, put them in a Trukk and just fire them at a stubborn enemy unit on an objective Also since they are Trukkboyz, all their custom shootas will hit on a 4+ That is almost a respectable amount of Dakka!
Blackie wrote: Goffs also, to give them more punch thanks to exploding 6s and possibly 5s.
I run 5 in Forktress BW shared with 10 boyz. 10 gretchins instead of boyz are also a legit choice.
I'd avoid putting a warboss in there, too many eggs in the same basket. With Goffs or Big Krumpaz bonuses, possibly also the waaagh one (which I don't use), they're killy enough.
I used 4 in Goff with 10 burna boyz in a BW. They work fine as a kan openner unit or to remove some pesky heavy infantry from an objective. I gave mine scorchas to make a nastier flamer bomb out of teleportation.
I would avoid big krumpas as there are plenty of other ways to get +1 to hit with out sacrificing clan traits they need to be viable. Obsec specifically for lucky blue gitz. No more than 5 in a unit and skip the killsawz. I don’t think a transport is necessary if you imbed them in infantry lists I use them Goffs but I guess my approach is a bit antiquated.
Blackie wrote: Goffs also, to give them more punch thanks to exploding 6s and possibly 5s.
I run 5 in Forktress BW shared with 10 boyz. 10 gretchins instead of boyz are also a legit choice.
I'd avoid putting a warboss in there, too many eggs in the same basket. With Goffs or Big Krumpaz bonuses, possibly also the waaagh one (which I don't use), they're killy enough.
I used 4 in Goff with 10 burna boyz in a BW. They work fine as a kan openner unit or to remove some pesky heavy infantry from an objective. I gave mine scorchas to make a nastier flamer bomb out of teleportation.
I also did the 10 burna/5 MANz wagon, works surprisingly well. I skipped on the skorchas though, too much of a point sink IMO. If I run deff skullz, a single rokkit goes on the boss nob, otherwise no extra gear. MANz are too expensive as they are and there are quite a few things out there that simply hard-counter there which can just delete a unit.
How do people feel about tankbustas in the small squig? Did a quick search and didn't see any talk about it. While maybe not S tier competitive I've found it adds a nice wrinkle to my Freeboota lists to double up on them.
Beardedragon wrote: im assuming it was open topped? or did you leave it non open topped and just fired when you disembarked the round after?
Open topped+deff rolla for me. When the MANz get out, you drive the burnas around and burn things with bad armor saves to draw fire to the now useless wagon.
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vindicare0412 wrote: How do people feel about tankbustas in the small squig? Did a quick search and didn't see any talk about it. While maybe not S tier competitive I've found it adds a nice wrinkle to my Freeboota lists to double up on them.
The primary reason is most likely that not many people own the little big squig. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, so feel free to share your strategies.
vindicare0412 wrote: How do people feel about tankbustas in the small squig? Did a quick search and didn't see any talk about it. While maybe not S tier competitive I've found it adds a nice wrinkle to my Freeboota lists to double up on them.
The primary reason is most likely that not many people own the little big squig. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, so feel free to share your strategies.
My strategy revolves pretty heavily around how good the Howdah rule(open topped + ignore fall back, engaged, or normal move penalties when shooting) is and how it off sets the 2 largest draw backs Tankbustas have (fragile and heavy weapon). They end up being a great way to get the Freeboota trait activated for your buggies and planes. The Squig itself while nothing special does provide another source of MW in the charge phase and being stuck in combat does not prevent the occupants from shooting. Late game the Bustas can always be used as a last ditch RODer or hop onto an objective.
The only glaring downside is the Squig is 18 wounds and fairly tall and hiding it can be a pain so it does force you into targeting units that pose a threat to it but at the same time they are no longer shooting my buggies.
Bonde wrote: So what's the best way to run Mega Nobz and in what kind of list?
I plan on running 4 Mega Nobz together with a Killa Klaw Warboss and 10 Grots in a Battlewagon with 'Ard case, Deffrolla and Fortress on Wheels. This is in an Evil Sunz Detachment with Trukkboyz, Scrapjets and Kommandos.
The plan is to drive them forward to the middle ojective. If the Wagon gets blown up, the Grots can take the damage. Next turn the MANz jump out and go punch the nearest enemy unit near the objetive. Buffed by the Warboss they hit on 3+. If the Warboss can reach something else while staying in buffing range, then that is perfect.
If the Battlewagon survives the first turn, it will go after any enemy non-melee units.
Evil Sunz kultur buffing them from M4" to M5" should be a nice bonus.
I used them this way. Pretty good, despite the fact, they died before do something. Most funny part is use the Emergency Disembark and jump with the, over the attacking units when the wagon is destroid. In some cases, opponent do nét have a weapons to kill them afterwards so in next turn, you march and charges your MANz deep in the opponents deploy.
I skipped this tactics in new codex - too many points sunk, no fight twice etc.
And the first of all - since grots cannot be obsec, this tactics lost a lot of its value. Because few grots jumping over the line and taking the opponents objective…. This was good
vindicare0412 wrote: How do people feel about tankbustas in the small squig? Did a quick search and didn't see any talk about it. While maybe not S tier competitive I've found it adds a nice wrinkle to my Freeboota lists to double up on them.
The primary reason is most likely that not many people own the little big squig. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, so feel free to share your strategies.
My strategy revolves pretty heavily around how good the Howdah rule(open topped + ignore fall back, engaged, or normal move penalties when shooting) is and how it off sets the 2 largest draw backs Tankbustas have (fragile and heavy weapon). They end up being a great way to get the Freeboota trait activated for your buggies and planes. The Squig itself while nothing special does provide another source of MW in the charge phase and being stuck in combat does not prevent the occupants from shooting. Late game the Bustas can always be used as a last ditch RODer or hop onto an objective.
The only glaring downside is the Squig is 18 wounds and fairly tall and hiding it can be a pain so it does force you into targeting units that pose a threat to it but at the same time they are no longer shooting my buggies.
Minor downside Butstas can't be boom boyz
Ive thought about it too but every time I consider it I realize Im paying the same points as a kill tank but not getting as many wounds or as good shooting weapons. 5 tankbustas+squiggoth costs the same as a giga shoota kill tank, 10 tankbustas in the squiggoth cost more than the kill tank with the bursta cannon does. And keep in mind the bursta cannon averaged the same shots the tankbustas does and has an easier time getting its bonus BS. Plus kill tank has a much better melee profile than the squiggoth and even regenerates wounds each turn.
I guess if you dont want to run triple kill tanks and have a clan culture squiggoth with a fire support unit makes sense but as far as tankbustas+squiggoth goes I think youre better just using different units to achieve the same result. Even if you dont want the kill tank, the kill rig and FW kannonwagon fill similar roles for far less points. Heck a kill rig and a kannonwagon together the same as a squiggoth with 10 tankbustas and thats giving you way more wounds, melee attacks, shooting, utility, and even pyskers.
I want to make the squiggoth work, but every time I look at a shooting unit to stick in it I ask myself why Im not just taking dedicated vehicles to do that roles instead.
I'm not a big fan on both the Breacha Ram and Rokkit on Kommando. Since you got the points, that's not a big issue, but I prefer to specialize my Kommando either for shooting from cover or charging from it. Also, your list is very skewed toward infantry. I don't think you have anything above toughness 6 and still small in number. The meganobz might struggle to get where they want and might be relatively easy to ignore since they will definitely be ignored in turn 1 and 2 in favor of the Squighob boyz. Well commanded, that could play strongly in your favor, else it could turn against you as you come in two more easily manageable wave. An army packing a lot of plasma or even good old autocannons could place you in tough spot though. Nasty Space Marines could be nasty. Otherwise, I love the very fast and super aggressive style it got.
Well yeah, like some one mentioned, do you have a plan for the Kommandos?
What about you shooting phase? seems empty, i know we orks like to use our chopa, but there has to be dakka too to be proper orky. Just advice, i would get more bikes if you like them, they can keep up with your dinos and their rather sturdy for their price.
You got 580 points in MANZ i sure hope you can deliver those 15, slogging from deployment at 5inch or ~11 with advance.
I feel that you need to think a bit on your battle plan. I know i know.. plan sounds so not orky (looks at blood axe orks ), but if you want good krumping you need some planz
Looks like Rising Tide includes just Codex Supplements for Cadians + Hive Fleet Leviathan along some Inquisition stuff - so no new Ork rules for now.
Yup, and GW are really spamming the transhuman (now trans-Cadian) across armies on units that arguably shouldn't have them. I was surprised and while I don't think it's particularly strong, I thought it would be Bullgryn/Ogryn specific rather than Cadian. I feel bad for Tyranids and Guard because that basically means this is their stopgap before they get to their codex which will be late into 9th.
I do find it kind of dumb that the Octarius sector, the place associated with an Ork Empire, doesn't have any Ork rules presence. You'd think if anything it would be a different regiment besides Cadia handling Octarius, but I guess it's because they're one of the main guard lines. I guess we have to wait until the second book?
yeah i really dont like how much stuff is getting transhuman.
Not just salty that orks got a garbage deal with it, but genuinely hated that rule being anything other than a 2cp strat. Every time i see more versions of it i go "ughh....." I was fine with Necron vehicles that have Quantum shields getting it because that...kinda makes sense there. Heavy duty shielding, sure why not. Dafuq does Cadian have it for lol....
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i really dont like how much stuff is getting transhuman.
Not just salty that orks got a garbage deal with it, but genuinely hated that rule being anything other than a 2cp strat.
Every time i see more versions of it i go "ughh....."
I was fine with Necron vehicles that have Quantum shields getting it because that...kinda makes sense there. Heavy duty shielding, sure why not.
Dafuq does Cadian have it for lol....
Yeah, it just feels lazy and a really artificial way to address the killiness of the edition in general. It also really screws over units that rely on +1 to wound like BA as their base ability and also makes the disparity between armies that do have it and those that don't even greater.
it also invalidates things that are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill and the weapons meant to kill them anyway.
It makes no sense that a weapon that hurts a Landraider fairly well somehow doesnt hurt a generic terminator...i could argue its harder to HIT the terminator, but not wound it.
Vineheart01 wrote: it also invalidates things that are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill and the weapons meant to kill them anyway.
It makes no sense that a weapon that hurts a Landraider fairly well somehow doesnt hurt a generic terminator...i could argue its harder to HIT the terminator, but not wound it.
The wound mechanic does represent the probability of a glancing hit. The idea that while a weapon technically touched a target that it simply grazed it or didn't cause any notable damage.
Vineheart01 wrote: it also invalidates things that are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill and the weapons meant to kill them anyway.
It makes no sense that a weapon that hurts a Landraider fairly well somehow doesnt hurt a generic terminator...i could argue its harder to HIT the terminator, but not wound it.
Exactly, it throws the sense of scale way off and the dumbest part is that they highlight that in the very article they can help shrug off lascannons which is ludicrous. GW should really either tone down the level of killiness with the amount of shots, damage and AP each army has (too late at this point IMO) or at the very least rely on actual statlines to properly reflect it rather than all the -1D and transhuman rules variants. Sadly, even with stats boosts in this edition, GW really hasn't shown any tact. The 2W boost for marines is increasingly irrelevant without extra protective rules due to D2 or better weapons with high AP being spammable by the top armies. Vehicles in general should have a higher wound ceiling and GW missed a golden opportunity to go higher in stats in general to help with granularity to precisely avoid the current issue we have now.
I digress though, since I think I'm probably going off topic.
I know Dred Mob isn't optimal at the moment, but assuming I tried to do a semi-competitive list with them, what would be the main Klan that I should be aiming for? I'm initially inclined to go for Goffs due to Big Mek BuzzGob's +1 to hit buff, but I'm not sure if its worth visiting any other Klan like Deffskullz.
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
Mechanicus, deldar, and whatever comes out next I bet lol. It’s more that kommandos/stormboyz are just better imo, not that boyz are terrible.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.
Let's go through your list.
Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.
Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.
Let's go through your list.
Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.
Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.
90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.
If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.
So let’s say orks kept all their army special rules from 8th, and all our buff characters stayed the same, and boyz were back at 8 points. Top tier stuff. Without all that it’s kinda meh in comparison to all our other stuff that wasn’t built to be buffed up.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.
Let's go through your list.
Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.
Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.
90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.
If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.
Firstly, I think you're missing the point. Boyz CAN'T do all of what you're saying, in part or at all without deliberate army structuring which has opportunity costs that restrict what you can include for the rest of the list. So if you want a buggy list, you will be neutering your vehicle damage output for a negligible advance and charge ability for them if you want boyz that are able to get stuck in and they just don't synergize very well with buggy lists since they just present a target for anti-infantry weapons. If you are building an alpha strike CC list, you won't do anything with boyz barring maybe trukk boyz at best (who can't be Goffs mind you and brings up their points base to 160 total with the mandatory trukk added in) who are more there to tie up enemy units rather than dealing damage. Even then it makes more sense to invest your points into stormboyz or kommandos instead who don't have to pay for a trukk (another 70 points) to get mobility. As a result, within the context of the Ork codex, boyz don't fulfill a function that isn't done by others much more cost effectively and differently (stormboyz/kommandos) and the Green Tide archetype doesn't work very well anymore due to GW crippling all of our morale mitigation abilities and losing the Endless Green Tide Strat. We don't even have the attack bonus for being at 20+ boyz in a unit now.
Also, thanks for throwing in a strawman argument. I never said boyz should be able to take down 10 plague marines on their own, but the way you're describing them in your original post makes it seem like you pooped your pants over some big scary boogeyman. I can't imagine how much you would REEEEE hearing about how much Dark Eldar Wyches can trade up on units or how Deathwing Knights have perma-transhuman. If your list can't handle a unit with 11 T5 wounds in total and a 6+ save, I can't imagine how much of a problem you would have with pretty much any army in 9th ed, which would explain your inability to handle remotely competitive games. A REAL chaff unit is like a guardsmen squad, that has a lot of mobility thanks to orders and acts as a screen to protect tanks or characters or performs actions in the backfield thanks to cheap unit nature. For only 55 points that can put out a respectable amount of lasgun fire if given orders as well. I'd take that honestly if it was option instead of grots or boyz in my list, even without the order support.
Furthermore, your very bad attempt at making Celestians seem better by porting some of the Ork stats is laughable, given that almost no real Sisters player worth their salt would take them when you have Sacrestants for proper bodyguard protection, Repentia for favourable trading and units like Crusaders to be cheap objective grabbers/and to perform actions. If you want mass CC S5 attacks, you just take either Arco-Flagellants or Penitent Engines/Mortifiers. Also, you're neglecting the fact that you have a 6++ invuln save built in, that can be buffed by different things in your army. Come back to me when you roll for 6+ (or don't roll at all given that guys like marines basically always have a minimum of -1AP to their weapons thanks to doctrines) saves on a T5 unit and then fail morale, you'll notice Boyz are a lot more fragile than what they seem to be.
Bonde wrote: It could be fun to try using a larger mob of 6 MegaNobz as Trukkboyz, put them in a Trukk and just fire them at a stubborn enemy unit on an objective Also since they are Trukkboyz, all their custom shootas will hit on a 4+ That is almost a respectable amount of Dakka!
At normal range 6 Meganobz with trukkboyz boost would be 24 shots...and 12 hits at S4, no AP. So for the low cost of 280pts you have the same ranged fire power potential at 18' range as....9 Tac Marines Not exactly impressive.
Totalwar1402 wrote: I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.
Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.
Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.
That is because you don't understand orkz Boyz are a terrible unit. Only Goffs wound on 3s and only if they successfully charged that turn. At 90pts for a Barebones mob, they aren't a chaff throwaway unit as already mentioned. All orkz get the re-roll charge, they only get advance and charge if you take a warboss, hes alive, and you call your normal WAAAAGH for 1 turn. As far as killing potential. A Goff Mob of 9 boyz and a Nob on the charge and during a WAAAGH turn do 41 attacks, that works out to 34 hits, 22 wounds and 11dmg vs a Space Marine statline. So 90pts of CC troops inflict 5 casualties to Marines. That is pretty good, but all of this assumes a lot of buffs, success and the enemy letting them get into CC without being harassed/shot to death.
As far as speed, they are Movement 5, advance averages 3.5 so over 2 turns you manage to move 17' which puts you in charge range at the end of turn 2. Those 5 Marines who would die in CC also average 2 dead Orkz per turn at 24' range and nobody is calling Tac Marines a good unit.
90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.
If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.
90pts is basically 4.5% of your army, its a meaningful portion to say the least, and is definitely not a chaff/throwaway unit. I do like how you compare those CC Goff Boyz to Celestians. Let us make a better comparison, how do Ork Boyz stand up against Sister Repentia. Who for 96pts get (4 repentia and a superior) 12 attacks at S6 -4AP 2dmg that hit on 4s with full re-rolls and +1 to wound as well as 6 attacks at S3 -3AP that have +1 to wound and on the charge itself they get to roll 3D6 and discard the lowest die. Those seem to do enough dmg to kill 8-0 Space Marines a turn instead of 5.
I think there's an infantry spam build in this book that is competitive, but I'm not sure what it is yet. Right now I'm playing a DS infantry list with a bit of support from trukk boy meganobz, squig buggies, koptas, and bikes. No one around me plays net lists, but we have some good players with good armies (Ad Mech, lots of Marines, Grey Knights, etc.).
If anyone's interest in giving it a go this is what I've been playing:
Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.
90 points is also the cost of 5 Blood Claws. 10 T4 3+ save wounds with better morale than boyz. Hitting on 2s everytime unless already stuck in combat, 4 attacks on the charge at S4 AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Also BS3+, which can also contribute a little.
Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.
90 points is also the cost of 5 Blood Claws. 10 T4 3+ save wounds with better morale than boyz. Hitting on 2s everytime unless already stuck in combat, 4 attacks on the charge at S4 AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Also BS3+, which can also contribute a little.
How many Blood Claws do you see these days?
That's actually a fair trade between orks and Blood Claws. One, the Blood Claws, practically has twice more endurance thanks to their armor save, but twice less damage due to their twice lower number.
As for the earlier mentioned Repentia which deal almost twice more damage, especially against multi wound infantry, but remain almost twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3. Plus, Boyz are objective secure which is still a notable advantage to take in consideration.
I don't think Ork boyz compare that poorly to either of these units, at least on paper, against certain opponents, some units are of course better, notably the Repentia against Space Marines (but not so much against Eldars of all types for example), but it remains a fairly good comparison.
as with majority of 'bad units' in 40k right now, its not that the unit itself is terrible its that there is so much obviously better alternatives. Speaking clearly within one's own codex here.
Boyz arent unplayable bad by any stretch of the word. Nobody is claiming that. The issue is other than the basic requirements for objectives and meatshields for bigger things there are so much better options. They arent that durable, they are only mildly killy. For pennies more you get Kommandoz which are like what about twice as effective than basic boyz? Thats the issue.
Orks arent the only one with that problem, i'd actually say Necrons are probably the only one that doesnt have the issue all that much that also isnt broken good (admech/deldar troops). Hell, look at marines. How many basic primaris or tactical marines do you see? Enough to fill the slots because they suck compared to the rest of the army.
Its one reason ive been dabbling in OnePageRules lately, i'm tired of troops feeling like a tax not a tactic.
As for the earlier mentioned Repentia which deal almost twice more damage, especially against multi wound infantry, but remain almost twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3. Plus, Boyz are objective secure which is still a notable advantage to take in consideration.
I don't think Ork boyz compare that poorly to either of these units, at least on paper, against certain opponents, some units are of course better, notably the Repentia against Space Marines (but not so much against Eldars of all types for example), but it remains a fairly good comparison.
Repentia are T3 yes, but they also have a 6++ Invuln and a 5+++ FNP
10 Bolter HITS do 6.66 wounds to Repentia and 3.33 to Boyz. After Saves the Repentia lose 3.7, the Boyz lose 2.7 So, are boyz more durable? yeah, but not by a lot and definitely not by
twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3
, and especially once you factor in morale which the repentia don't really give a damn about, but those boyz are now failing morale and losing models on a 5+
In the subject of boys, just going within codex Orks themselves can easily shoot down 10 boyz, which means other shooting armies are not afraid of boys at all.
Further, the other problem with boys is the price increase, if they had remained at 8 points players might be taking them, but at nine it just pushes them into "meh" territory
DoktaRoksta wrote: I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy Thanks to all who advised me.
Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .
Was happy to contribute though.
None the less care to share your story?
Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.
He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant.
I got first turn for once!
I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter.
He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later
I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.
He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.
Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.
He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.
Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.
He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.
Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.
Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy Thanks to all who advised me.
Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .
Was happy to contribute though.
None the less care to share your story?
Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.
He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant. I got first turn for once! I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter. He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later
I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.
He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.
Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.
He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.
Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.
He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.
Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.
Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy Thanks to all who advised me.
Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .
Was happy to contribute though.
None the less care to share your story?
Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.
He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant.
I got first turn for once!
I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter.
He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later
I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.
He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.
Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.
He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.
Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.
He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.
Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.
Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.
wait.. you tellyported your dreads turn 1 or did i misunderstand? you cant do that if you did.
I can’t exactly remember if it was turn 1 or two. We’re both newbies (me more than him) so we are both butchering the rules but learning as we go along.
I wasn’t aware however that I couldn’t do it turn 1 so thanks for letting me know. So what’s the rule? From turn 2 onward?
DoktaRoksta wrote: I can’t exactly remember if it was turn 1 or two. We’re both newbies (me more than him) so we are both butchering the rules but learning as we go along.
I wasn’t aware however that I couldn’t do it turn 1 so thanks for letting me know. So what’s the rule? From turn 2 onward?
Correct. The rules is a bit difficult to spot, as it's part of the mission pack.
addnid wrote: I think next CA boyz will go back to 8 points. They have new models
Two problems with that. 1: I don't see GW reducing the price of Boyz. They have been on an constant trend of making things more expensive, not less. And especially with Spam/horde troops they've been increasing cost. and of course 2: It wouldn't matter if they did.
ATM the main problem isn't that boyz are 9ppm, its that they suck. Lets go biggest example to illustrate this. Lets say you take 30 Boyz right now, i'm going to kill 6 of them and almost guarantee a failed morale check to make you lose another 5 to morale/attrition. You just lost 99pts but I only had to kill 54pts to make you lose that much. So Again, I killed 54pts of Boyz and you lost 99pts total. Space that over 3 mobz of boyz and I kill 162pts but you end up losing 297. I've killed 15% of your entire army turn 1 by simply killing 18 boyz.
Now, lets reduce the price to a more affordable 8ppm. Same math plays out because none of the base rules have changed. I still kill 6 per mob to make you fail morale, you still lose 5 more to morale/attrition but now its me killing 48pts and you losing 88pts total. At full scale (3 mobz of 30) that is 144pts killed but 264pts lost total.
Dropping price by 1ppm saves you a whopping 33pts in the scenario above. It reduces the cost of my Over priced Trukk Boyz from 160pts to 150pts. To put it bluntly, it wouldn't be enough for me to take more or bigger mobz and at best it would change out some peoples mandatory troop tax from 50pts of grots to 80pts of Orkz.
To make boyz competitive there are really just 3 general options.
1: Make them cheap enough that morale losses don't matter. At 7ppm they might be there, at 6pts they would definitely be there. But then you go to problem that players will revert to Horde style which GW is doing their best to kill. At 2kpts if Boyz were 6ppm players would spam 180-240 of them. Who cares if you lose 5 to morale per mob turn 1, that is only 240pts and to do that your opponent had to kill 48 Boyz in 8 mobz, a lot harder proposition than 18 in 3 mobz
2: Make them even more durable/deadly so that players are willing to take the risk of losing models to morale for the possibility of inflicting more dmg OR because they in turn soak up more enemy firepower.
3: Fix their competitive issues at their current price point without over doing it. IE, Fix Morale. You would also have to adjust their buffs as an issue as well. Da Jump got nerfed, Assault from Deepstrike/teleport the same, KFF is weaker, Painboy/boss is too expensive and doesn't do enough and the Warboss aura isn't that great 10 boyz go from 20 hits to 25 hits with +1 to hit. Against a Marine that is a difference of 1.25 extra dmg, so a full mob of 30 gets a whopping 3.75 extra dmg for being near a warboss....
3A: For Shoota boyz...you could literally DOUBLE their current firepower and they still wouldn't be that competitive. Think about that. ATM 10 Shoota boyz average 1.1dmg vs Marines or 2.9 vs Imperial Guardsmen...at 18' range. If you DOUBLED their firepower they still would likely not be able to shoot turn 1 thanks to limited range, but at that point they would manage to kill a Marine in 1 shooting phase or almost 6 guardsmen, and at Half range (good luck) it would jump to 3.3 dmg vs Marines and 8.8 vs Guard.
Conversely you could just give Shoota boyz +1BS which wouldn't be enough still, but you could then just give their guns +1 shot and it would be acceptable dmg output. 10 Shoota boyz at that point would be putting out 2.5/3.3 dmg to Marines at Full and Dakka range and 6.6/8.8 VS Guardsmen.
SemperMortis wrote: Conversely you could just give Shoota boyz +1BS which wouldn't be enough still, but you could then just give their guns +1 shot and it would be acceptable dmg output. 10 Shoota boyz at that point would be putting out 2.5/3.3 dmg to Marines at Full and Dakka range and 6.6/8.8 VS Guardsmen.
I would have said give shootas dakka 2/4 and give shoota boyz a BS of 4+ at half range and make them 8 pts as a buff for indeed, right now, they are useless.
For Choppa boyz, I would have been tempted to make a sacrilege and raise their armor to a 5+. It might not make a big difference to most, but saving an extra boyz here and there could be interesting. Lower their price to 8 pts too and you got something that can reasonably be used to bully a weakened unit of a point and have a chance of actually holding it provided nothing actually powerful opens up on them.
But that's another debate. The return of a few cheap stratagem for boyz would be interesting like a temporary increase to defense or offense like a "shoot twice" strat for shoota boyz that cost 1 CP, a moral strat for a 1 CP that rests upon the current mob rule like a "ignore negative modifier to moral if 6 inches away from another mob of orks above 50%". That sort of things could also be interesting for the poor boyz.
I don't agree with every detail, but in general I think Semper is right.
In regards to 1) I think that killing off the green tide play style was the right thing to do, as it has overshadowed any other build for multiple editions now and kept many units out of competitive play. It also required new players to spend a LOT of money on just boyz before they could start actually playing orks, while today you can easily In addition, an army build out of kommadoz, storm boyz, burnas and trukk boyz looks a lot like a green tide, but still plays vastly different because the different specialist boyz actually have different abilities, strengths and weakness. It actually feels like playing orks rather than playing boyz
2) I don't think this would work. Currently we just have too many units standing on the same design space. Changing boyz to be better would just knock one of the other units out of the spotlight. Which would then just lead back to people spamming boyz. I think the only way of fixing boyz without going back to the old "boyz before toyz" problem is by giving them something that can't just be slapped on every mob you buy - for example a stratagem or specialist mob. 'ard boyz, for example...
3) You should just be able to mitigate morale in a way that allows counter-play from your opponent. For example nobz could have an aura that substracts 1 from attrition tests, completely preventing attrition casualties as long as you have mob rule.
3a) Shoota boyz should just be a specialist mob or a separate datasheet at this point. After 5 editions of failing to balance them against choppa boyz, one should think they might finally have learned their lesson.
Last but not least, I think that GW will put much more effort into pushing beast snagga boyz into the spotlight than regular boyz. It's fairly clear that the primary driver for new boyz was reducing the sprue count for the combat patrol box, while also silencing those crying for new sculpts.
I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
I like this. I was amazed yesterday when I had to take an unmodified morale test in the unit I had screening my warboss.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.
Morale in general is an odd thing in warhammer 40k tabletop.
Like, why would space marines turn tail and run? They probably wouldnt. The idea that you can actually see a 90 ppm scrapjet run off is equally stupid.
Things shouldnt run off. Morale should do something different all together, like making a unit worse for a round or something.
But if we do keep the idea of still running, then Orks by lore are much less likely to run when near their warboss, and much more likely to run off when the warboss dies. I feel like removing any modifiers to attrition and getting like +1 or +2 to leadership near your warlord of just a warboss/speedboss type would be a decent way to go about it.
And maybe the round where your warlord dies, the entire army suffers from -1 leadership. Now that i dont know if would be balanced or not but at least it would be lore friendly.
Morale casualties aren't limited to "running", though we usually put it that way when discussing tactics.
It also includes falling back to regroup at a specific point outside the battlefield, taking care of fallen/wounded comrades, being shell shocked or affected by hallucinations or mirages, your head exploding because chaos got into your mind or picking up your severed arm and taking it to a doc to get it re-attached.
Outside of that, I think there are hundred of threads on dakka with suggestion about what to do with morale, so I won't go into that in detail.
But yes, just adding +1 to leadership would make a big enough difference to matter and would actually make more sense than the odd +1 to hit the just slapped onto everything as if they had 5 minutes to think up all auras in the codex. Then again, multiple warbosses being unable to coordinate for a combines benefit is kind of fluffy, so eh.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.
Was spitballing ideas really, I just miss Boyz mobs that weren't afraid of nuffin'
But still it seems silly to have Boyz running away from a smattering of gunfire when there's a warboss and or his Lefftenunts knocking about. Bring back proper Breakin' Heads I say.
Even if the current Breakin' Heads was 1CP it would be leagues better.
Or even using the LD value of a nearby warboss/nobs unit in place of the boys unit would be huge.
While I disagree with Semper that boyz just sucks, the fact is that they are thoroughly . mediocre.
In all the competitive lists I have seen bar one, people only take boyz as trukkboyz. There are many lists out there, that pays the 3cp tax im order not to bring any troops, and plenty lists that opt for the extremely weak 5ppm gretchin (with no obsec) rather than take boyz.
I think boyz are decently killy even at 9ppm, and with goffs they are even good in melee. The problem is that they are very squishy at 9ppm, they are bad objective holders, and they suffer badly from morale. Shoota boyz are objectively worse now, as they cannot advance and shoot anymore, and the lack of ap in melee hurts them more than getting a underwhelming shooting profile helps them. Shoots boyz aren't really helped by either waaagh either.
One way to make boyz better would be to make trukks better (or cheaper). Another would be to give units +2 leadership for a 5 point bosspole.
Since we are airing grievances I’m not a huge fan of Dakka profile should have just left everything as rapid fire or assault and given all rapid fire +1 shot in speed Waagh
And the nob with banner should have been a morale instead of another +1 hit probbaly like the crusade relic +1 ld aura and ignore attrition modifiers within 12in to clan models.
Breaking heads shouldn’t have been a strat but a warboss/beastboss aura.
Beardedragon wrote: Morale in general is an odd thing in warhammer 40k tabletop.
Like, why would space marines turn tail and run? They probably wouldnt. The idea that you can actually see a 90 ppm scrapjet run off is equally stupid.
Things shouldnt run off. Morale should do something different all together, like making a unit worse for a round or something.
But if we do keep the idea of still running, then Orks by lore are much less likely to run when near their warboss, and much more likely to run off when the warboss dies. I feel like removing any modifiers to attrition and getting like +1 or +2 to leadership near your warlord of just a warboss/speedboss type would be a decent way to go about it.
And maybe the round where your warlord dies, the entire army suffers from -1 leadership. Now that i dont know if would be balanced or not but at least it would be lore friendly.
As Jid mentioned, it doesn't necessarily mean "running Away" it could just be regrouping or any of the other things Jid mentioned. So yeah it makes sense for units to disappear off the board after a failed morale test. The problem is that as of this moment, Orkz are the only faction that actually gives a damn about Morale. Marines are LD 8 with a Sgt and almost never appear in squads bigger than 5. Which means that if they lose 4/5ths of their models they have a 1/3rd chance to lose the final guy. If boyz could be taken in Mobz of 5 we actually might see them spammed a bit more as well since free nobz and low probability of morale issues would be nice
Nidz will be the telling codex for whether or not GW is giving a damn about morale or if it was designed just to feth over Horde Factions.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.
I agree completely here. The problem is that as mentioned above, we are just about the only faction that has to actually plan around morale. I can't think of a single other faction that regularly has to take morale checks and lose models.
I played another FLGS Tournament this weekend (3 rounds) I was able to pull out 3 more wins and win the tournament with my Alpha strike list, but I must have taken 3-5 morale checks a game. The Trukk Boyz regularly lost 2-4 models to morale, so did the Stormboyz, the Kommandos did a few times as well, albeit not as much since they usually drew a lot of firepower turn 1 now that my opponents realize how fething scary they are in CC.
Fun note, I played Game 3 against a fellow Ork player who was rocking Buggy Spam. He was floored when I decimated his buggies turn 1 with the Kommandos. Each mob was able to tie up a Squadron of Vehicles and more importantly, was able to kill at least 1 in each squadron. At that point I had over 1/2 of his army tied up in Combat where they didn't want to be and it was relatively quick win as he conceded turn 2 after not being able to free himself sufficiently from combat before the Warbosses made their epic appearance.
Cheaper trukks are not gonna happen. They're already among the cheapest transports in the game.
I'm also strongly against making things cheaper, including boyz which IMHO they should be 9ppm models, most of the ork stuff is already quite cheap.
Boyz simply need a purpose, some buffs in order to give them something that differentiate them from the cheap specialists in the upcoming expansion could do it. Orks are exactly like Adepta Sororitas in this regard.
About morale, if you want something different than fleeing you need to change the game's core rules, not orks ones.
I don’t think a lot of people who make non-bloodaxe buggy list realize how easy it is to lock down buggy spam. If you are going to put a few buggies in a non-blood add list it’s fine but if your throwing out 8+ buggies in another clan your just asking to get those buggies tied in combat especially when you put them in squadrons.
Regarding boys they need some more morale mitigation in the form of nob w banner and warboss breakin eads aura added back. Beyond that I wouldn’t mind seeing the +1 atk for being over 20 boys brought back, mob up strategem returned, and maybe powerklaw down to 5ppm. Trukk boys specialist would have been fine with multiple boys units being allowed to take it. Regarding points if you did the above they boys would be okay. Gretchin definitely need a 1ppm drop they are by far the weakest unit in game for 5ppm. Even cultists and horrors are stronger then Gretchin. Either that or allow Gretchin benefit from klan aura.
Blackie wrote: Cheaper trukks are not gonna happen. They're already among the cheapest transports in the game.
I'm also strongly against making things cheaper, including boyz which IMHO they should be 9ppm models, most of the ork stuff is already quite cheap.
Boyz simply need a purpose, some buffs in order to give them something that differentiate them from the cheap specialists in the upcoming expansion could do it. Orks are exactly like Adepta Sororitas in this regard.
About morale, if you want something different than fleeing you need to change the game's core rules, not orks ones.
A Trukk is 70pts. Its Movement 12, T6, 10 wounds 4+ save. Has a carrying capacity of 12 and has Open topped, Ramshackle and Ere We Go. It has a single big shoota for ranged combat and its 3 attacks at S6 in CC but it hits on 5s.
A Marine Rhino is 80pts. Its movement 12 T7, 10 wounds 3+ save only carries 10 but it doesn't need to carry more. Its got ATSKNF, Bolter Discipline, Shock assault and Combat doctrines. Its got a Stormbolter or for 5pts it can go to 2 stormbolters which put out 4 shots each at BS3. Not exactly great but definitely better than the Trukk but nobody really takes them.
Dark Eldar have Venom's at 75pts, its Movement 16 (Hover), T5, 6W, 4+ save, 5+ invuln, -1 to hit only carries 6 but again, most DE units are small. Its got Blade Artists and PFP. Its armed with a Splinter Cannon and 2 Rifles at BS3. in CC its got 3 attacks at S6 -1AP hitting on 4s.
Dark Eldar ALSO have Raiders at 95pts, its Movement 14 (Hover), T6, 10W, 4+ save, 5+ Invuln, it carries 11, Its got the same Blade Artists and PFP its armed with a Dark Lance and has the same CC abilities.
So the Rhino isn't taken even though its significantly more durable for 10pts more. The Venoms/Raiders are taken all the time they are 2-4' faster, they are more deadly at ranged combat and close combat, they have the same or better durability and more importantly are also open topped. So what is the difference between the Trukk at 70 and the Raider at 95? Trukk is 2' slower, -1 WS, -2 BS, Same Strength, Same Toughness, Same Wounds, Same attacks, -1LD and same save. So durability wise against most anti-tank weapons the Raider is significantly more durable thanks to the invuln save. Ranged combat the Dark Lance is S8 -4AP D3+3dmg hitting on 3s compared to 3(5) S5 shots hitting on 5s. In CC the BladeVanes hitting on 4s is a helluva lot better than the trukkz 3 S6 attacks hitting on 5s, especially when you add in Blade artists and PFP buffs.
Dark Lances are priced at 15pts on infantry squads, A 5+ Invuln for Trukkz is priced at 20pts but I think thats honestly about 10-15pts over priced, but lets say 10. That means that Just the Invuln/Weapon make up the price for the difference between the two. You are still left with slower movement and worse WS/BS/LD and of course the Close Combat Weapon it comes standard with.
All of that is to say that while the trukk is useful, it could very clearly use a 10pt price reduction to be competitive against things like the Raider.
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gungo wrote: I don’t think a lot of people who make non-bloodaxe buggy list realize how easy it is to lock down buggy spam. If you are going to put a few buggies in a non-blood add list it’s fine but if your throwing out 8+ buggies in another clan your just asking to get those buggies tied in combat especially when you put them in squadrons.
Regarding boys they need some more morale mitigation in the form of nob w banner and warboss breakin eads aura added back. Beyond that I wouldn’t mind seeing the +1 atk for being over 20 boys brought back, mob up strategem returned, and maybe powerklaw down to 5ppm. Trukk boys specialist would have been fine with multiple boys units being allowed to take it. Regarding points if you did the above they boys would be okay. Gretchin definitely need a 1ppm drop they are by far the weakest unit in game for 5ppm. Even cultists and horrors are stronger then Gretchin. Either that or allow Gretchin benefit from klan aura.
Yep, tying up Buggies is a good strat to beat them up. And LD is absolutely the biggest issue we face right now. I really want to avoid stratagems to make them competitive though, feels too much like 8th edition. I do want to point out though that even at 4ppm Grotz would be as useless as they are now. They need a 5+ save to justify their price/existence and even then it would still be useless except as objective holders sitting in cover.
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Tomsug wrote: Or we can - for some time - do not play 120 boyz….
I agree, I'm bored with boyz spam, but a lot of players like it and shouldn't be completely blocked out of playing. But on top of that, we have gone and done a complete 180 on boyz. In 8th you saw massive mobz of boyz backed by buffing characters. Now? You might see a unit of trukk boyz as MSU troop tax, that is it. It would be nice to have a middle ground where boyz are at least possible to be used.
I think Ork boyz would be fine at their current price point, if they had better buffs, for example a 5+++ from the Painboy instead of 6+++, 5++ on the KFF for infantry instead of 6++, Breaking 'Eads either cheaper at 1CP or as a built-in ability for 'Nobz and Warbosses, perhaps even +1 LD for having a 'Nob with a bosspole.
As of right now, they are a rather fragile unit at their price point. I use mine in trukks and for holding objectives. They might be able to krump some screening unit, like guardsmen, cultists or scarabs, but they rarely last long after that.
I also agree that Gretchin feel very overcosted at 5ppm. To be worth that they would need to at least have obsec and some kind of useful ability.
So the Rhino isn't taken even though its significantly more durable for 10pts more.
Actually it is, and at 80 points it's an efficient transport. Armies that need it will take it. Sororitas (especially) and Thousand Sons already do.
SM don't need it, they're fast and tanky enough to skip transports, they are good at mid-long range, and most of their infantries can't even ride in rhinos anyway. If their key units needed a ride and could actually get inside a rhino, those transports would certainly be taken pretty often.
Drukhari transports are very powerful and most of their infantries desperately need speed and extra protection. Instead of decreasing the cost of a trukk GW could easily increase Venom's and Raider's cost. This is also the faction that has the higher win rate in competitive games, and it has been the top tier since several months now. Upping some of their stuff makes sense.
I think 70ppm for a 10W T6 4+ save transport, that belongs to a faction that can get good use of it, is already cheap, and I'm against spamming units (2-3 trukks are already taken in competitive lists) and making expensive stuff (in currency, a trukk is 44$) cheap in points.
Actually it is, and at 80 points it's an efficient transport. Armies that need it will take it. Sororitas (especially) and Thousand Sons already do.
SM don't need it, they're fast and tanky enough to skip transports, they are good at mid-long range, and most of their infantries can't even ride in rhinos anyway. If their key units needed a ride and could actually get inside a rhino, those transports would certainly be taken pretty often.
Which is why I specified in that post "Space Marine" SOB give their transport a invuln for free, Thousand sons use them somewhat but as a wonderful buff they also get -2AP on their bolter shots Again though, a Rhino is +1T and +1 Armor save for 10pts more on a transport. That is pretty damn nice, and again, only armies that get more special rules/weapons to add to the rhino actually take them. I went all the way back to the 11th of September looking for a SM list that took a Rhino, there wasn't any. All I am saying is that a transport that offers no real benefits besides a transport, and a flimsy one at that, should not cost 70pts. They could make it better, give it a useful CC function or give it more durability to make it harder to destroy, but as it stands they aren't really that competitive and I also don't see them often except as Trukk Boyz transports. In fact, I just went through all Ork GT placing lists for September, 0 trukkz were used....a lot of Rukkatrukks though
Blackie wrote: Drukhari transports are very powerful and most of their infantries desperately need speed and extra protection. Instead of decreasing the cost of a trukk GW could easily increase Venom's and Raider's cost. This is also the faction that has the higher win rate in competitive games, and it has been the top tier since several months now. Upping some of their stuff makes sense.
I think 70ppm for a 10W T6 4+ save transport, that belongs to a faction that can get good use of it, is already cheap, and I'm against spamming units (2-3 trukks are already taken in competitive lists) and making expensive stuff (in currency, a trukk is 44$) cheap in points.
They aren't seen at top tables that is for sure, and i'm one of the weirdos trying to make them work atm. I've played a host of tournaments with them in my Alpha strike list. The Trukkz only work with Trukk boyz and even then...barely.
I am really having a hard time facing Deathguard army. Its just like this army is a perfect counter to Orks.
I am always facing Typhus, DG Demon prince, the 2 elites characters, 3* x pox guys, 10 terminators, 2* 3 deathshrouds, 2 * plagueburst & 1 Dread Contemptor.
I have a big mini collection but no plane to go to a full speedwhaagh and i must say: I love Close combat more. I have the new Beastboss on squig and squighog riders but no killrig for the moment. Only 3 scrapjets / 3 squigbuggys.
Do we have to go full CC or full Shoot to really be effective ?
Any advices versus Deathguards or on an army list ?
I am really having a hard time facing Deathguard army. Its just like this army is a perfect counter to Orks.
I am always facing Typhus, DG Demon prince, the 2 elites characters, 3* x pox guys, 10 terminators, 2* 3 deathshrouds, 2 * plagueburst & 1 Dread Contemptor.
I have a big mini collection but no plane to go to a full speedwhaagh and i must say: I love Close combat more. I have the new Beastboss on squig and squighog riders but no killrig for the moment. Only 3 scrapjets / 3 squigbuggys.
Do we have to go full CC or full Shoot to really be effective ?
Any advices versus Deathguards or on an army list ?
Thanks!
perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.
SemperMortis wrote: perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.
Easier said than done though. Plagueburst Crawlers are tough tanks and Orks have little long range anti-tank capacity. It could be tough with a close combat focused army without a Kill Rig (which is pretty good at sniping tanks even though its attaks are all short range). I would personnaly try to go with an outflanking group squighob boyz with squig bombs or something like that under such circumstances.
SemperMortis wrote: perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.
Easier said than done though. Plagueburst Crawlers are tough tanks and Orks have little long range anti-tank capacity. It could be tough with a close combat focused army without a Kill Rig (which is pretty good at sniping tanks even though its attaks are all short range). I would personnaly try to go with an outflanking group squighob boyz with squig bombs or something like that under such circumstances.
Absolutely, its definitely not easy, and nor should it be. But once those ranged threats are over its relatively easy to just pick and choose your moments to engage in CC>
SemperMortis wrote: perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.
Easier said than done though. Plagueburst Crawlers are tough tanks and Orks have little long range anti-tank capacity. It could be tough with a close combat focused army without a Kill Rig (which is pretty good at sniping tanks even though its attaks are all short range). I would personnaly try to go with an outflanking group squighob boyz with squig bombs or something like that under such circumstances.
Absolutely, its definitely not easy, and nor should it be. But once those ranged threats are over its relatively easy to just pick and choose your moments to engage in CC>
Busting tanks and other artillery has always been the greatest weakness of Orks in my opinion, which I must admit is rather fluffy. Though I have to say those Deathguard Terminators are ridiculously tough even if they are expensive.
I've found that my main issue with PBC is that they just hide behind terrain deep into their deployment and they screen their backfield well enough that we can't just deepstrike and tie them up with Stormboyz. So far Wazbom Blastajets have been one of the few ways we can severely damage or potentially oneshot PBC T1 and T2.
My experience playing against DG has been taking out the longer ranged units ASAP and then trying to kite the slow stuff and chip it down to a point where you can move in to finish them off. It's super grindy and unpleasant though, and by no means a reliable method.
But obviously, pay 20 for the two S9 big gunz, and their magic D3+3 damage. That and the aerial KFF. Don’t skimp on any costs aside from the supa shooters imho.
I for one don’t have too much trouble with Deathguard, but it really comes down to how lucky they get with the crawlers. I beat one at a RTT 9 days ago, the player was pretty good, I went second (as I did all tournament). Wazbomb whiffed, sguig lauchers wiffed, but I managed to hold more primaries most turns and this gave me my victory (12 me, 08 him, for those familiar with WTC scoring). Something like 79 points me and around 60 him.
I was on dawn of war deployment though, so I stretched him thin enough, even though he didn’t fall for my baiting. deathguard are much tougher to beat when the deploy zone is not as wide (In narrow deployments I lose more than I win against them, especially if I go second)
I only hate playing against DG if they bring mortarion and i happen to run Freebootas army, which, frankly i and most people tend to do these days.
Because what the feth do you do? You want to get that +1 to hit by killing something, but usually you also want to fire all your big guns at mortarion because if you dont he will wreck havoc the entire game.
So i can never figure out if i should aim all my guns, that are str 8 or +1 to wound at mortarion, essentially having no klan kulture because nothing dies that round, or kill something else first, and then go for mortarion with fewer guns.
Its an annoying conundrum.
best i can hope for is killing poxwalkers first with big shootas and the like if they bring any.
The real problem with DG is getting around the aura of fight last. If you're playing the freebooterz list, just paste the terminators with your wazboms. I wouldn't even bother shooting at the PBCs unless you're tabling them or have nothing better to shoot at.
I've noticed we really lack the typical CC tricks of fight first/last which feels bad as an army that should be melee focused.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.
I disagree for one faction it would be fitting to have a fearless aura. Tyranids when in synapse range. The hive mind is telling them go here and do that and they have no free will to do anything else. outside of synapse range and when under instinctual behavior i would 100% agree they should have low leadership and have a good chance to run as that is what predators do when there is a threat.
plenty of things should be straight up fearless, orks arent one of them.
Though orks shouldnt be cowards either. I swear about a quarter of my boy deaths are from morale alone.
Dendarien wrote: The real problem with DG is getting around the aura of fight last. If you're playing the freebooterz list, just paste the terminators with your wazboms. I wouldn't even bother shooting at the PBCs unless you're tabling them or have nothing better to shoot at.
I've noticed we really lack the typical CC tricks of fight first/last which feels bad as an army that should be melee focused.
Yeah I don’t shoot the Pbc either. I usually tie them up in cc at some point in the game. Btw is it just me or is everyone and their mother playing DG these days ? Them and GKs as of recently (which is strange to me because basically both armies have just one build…).
The fight last aura is strong indeed but you just kite around it, go on other objectives. I have yet to face mortarion as everyone seems to think he is autolose against too many armies to be tournament material
No fight first or force opponents to fight last is pretty fluffy though as orks always had bad initiative values and before 8th they typically never fought first anyway.
I think only Drukhari can field a full "fight first" army, most of the factions that use those mechanics have typically one unit or character that does that. SM, Necrons, etc... don't really use it.
addnid wrote: But obviously, pay 20 for the two S9 big gunz, and their magic D3+3 damage. That and the aerial KFF. Don’t skimp on any costs aside from the supa shooters imho.
I for one don’t have too much trouble with Deathguard, but it really comes down to how lucky they get with the crawlers. I beat one at a RTT 9 days ago, the player was pretty good, I went second (as I did all tournament). Wazbomb whiffed, sguig lauchers wiffed, but I managed to hold more primaries most turns and this gave me my victory (12 me, 08 him, for those familiar with WTC scoring). Something like 79 points me and around 60 him.
I was on dawn of war deployment though, so I stretched him thin enough, even though he didn’t fall for my baiting. deathguard are much tougher to beat when the deploy zone is not as wide (In narrow deployments I lose more than I win against them, especially if I go second)
SemperMortis wrote: perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.
Easier said than done though. Plagueburst Crawlers are tough tanks and Orks have little long range anti-tank capacity. It could be tough with a close combat focused army without a Kill Rig (which is pretty good at sniping tanks even though its attaks are all short range). I would personnaly try to go with an outflanking group squighob boyz with squig bombs or something like that under such circumstances.
Yup, DG are my second army - after all, green is da best, right? It's also a great army to have in addition to orks because they are pretty much the exact opposite of everything that is orks, except they fight just as well (possibly better?) in in melee.
In any case, DG are a PITA to handle for orks because for one they get vastly more powerful the closer they get. Not just their contagions, but most weapons and psychic powers are also short ranged (12-24") plus they have many bespoke rules, relics and warlord traits that cause debuffs and/or MW at close range. In combat there are few armies that hit as hard DG do, plus they have tons of stratagems to support them to solve pretty much any possible situation. Any terminator unit can blend themselves through 30 boyz in two turns, so don't try to fight them on their terms. Also be aware that there is a stratagem that allows terminators in combat to drop your LD by 4, which I have found to be ridiculously powerful against armies without ld mitigation like orks. On top of that, many ork weapons cause 2 damage which is where their DR shines, while we are lacking those 3+d3 damage weapons that can easily off terminators. Last, but not least, they can toss a pile of mortal wounds at whatever they want, ignoring T5, ramshackle, -1 to hit and any invuls you might have.
The army list he is running is fairly close to the current cookie-cutter builds, with poxwalkers for holding backfield and screening, plagueburst crawlers shelling your from out of LOS using the stratagem for 3 damage and MW and a contemptor which are just good at shooting everything. Meanwhile the terminators move up the field and push the enemy off objectives. Fairly straight forward, and very similar to what I'm usually running - there is not that much you can vary with such a small codex. By any chance, do you know which plague fleet he is running?
So, enough about DG, what can you do as an ork player? - taking out those PBC and the contemptor as soon as possible makes a huge difference, but then again the PBCs are most likely hiding as long as they can while being protected by pox walkers. Without planes or SJD you are unlikely to get good shots at them, but one of them ever comes out of hiding, make sure to punish it. Unlike in 8th they are no longer unkillable behemoths, but roughly as durable as a LRBT - assuming you are shooting them with d6 or 3 damage weapons. Outside of those units DG have next to no shooting, but even a single stratagem-powered PBC can ruin your backfield. - Pox walkers can screen, but they will still die easily to units like kommadoz, koptas or warbikers. Just make sure to absolutely kill them to the last one, as otherwise the DG player can add 4-5 new models to the unit with a stratagem, plus they have good chance of killing boyz which also adds new pox walkers. Once you got past the poxes, you can try to tag the PBC in combat. It does have some non-trivial shooting even when locked down, but anything is better than it shelling stuff out of sight with the stratagem. - The only weapons which really kill DG terminators well are d6 or 3+d6 or better weapons. Rokkits get reduced to 2 damage, so you need two rokkits to kill one terminator - at 4++/T5 this is a huge investment. When charging them, always make sure to overkill them. Mathhammer usually relies on averages, but with 4++ saves those averages are a gamble at best. - The other thing that terminators really don't like is mortal wounds. Beastboss on squigosaur, nob on smasha squig, kill rig, spiked ram and ramming speed all can cheat away some of those annoying 40/50 point models. If you have the choice, you should try to take out the deathshrouds first, the big brick of blightlords needs to be ground down over time or simply ignored. - Should you ever have the chance to snipe the daemon prince, do it. Keep in mind that it cannot be targeted whatsoever as long as it's near deathshroud. - I don't think there is a good way for orks to get rid of Typhus unless he is walking around by himself. A beastboss with 'eadwhompa might get lucky, but if you fail Typhus kills pretty much anything when he gets to fight back. - DG suck at killing vehicles, especially those with ramshackle. Outside of the PBC, none of their weapons have a higher strength than 7 since they rely on the -1T to do damage. - DG are extremely slow and cannot change their pre-determined battle plan easily. If you crush one flank, their other flank will be unable to respond outside of shooting buffed bolters at you. If the mission allows you to get 3 objectives that way, do it. If you attack their backfield, their frontline will not be able to return to help them. Just make sure to do one thing properly, and not spread your units around. Any tactic that banks on attrition like tarpitting, screening or prolonged combats will - just like in the lore - play into the DG's hands. - On the same note, the easiest way to speed up for the DG is by making charge moves. Try to avoid giving them 8-10" charges either by getting out of their range, or by moving closer and blocking them using terrain (be aware, they ignore difficult). You really don't want to give a free 15" movement to a unit of DG terminators. This kind of list tends to win by flipping objectives, so running off an objective is sometimes the better choice. This way you get to keep your unit and they have to get onto the objective with their 5" move or advance and lose their shooting. - For both of the above reasons, walling in DG with kommandoz like you do with DE or marines is a bad idea. Deployed at 9", the terminators still get to move 5", charge 4" or more and then pile in and consolidate to more than double their movement in T1. Instead, hide them out of sight and try to get into the backfield to slaughter poxwalkers and block PBC. If there are some tall ruins, you can also try to hide on higher levels, as an experienced DG player will never move up a level with their terminators - doing so is essentially the same as taking them out of the game.
Slight change of topic before goin g back to ork match ups: do you guys think we can launch sguig bombs while being engaged in CC ? Just like if they were pistol weapons ? They aren’t really a shooting weapon
Beardedragon wrote: I only hate playing against DG if they bring mortarion and i happen to run Freebootas army, which, frankly i and most people tend to do these days.
Because what the feth do you do? You want to get that +1 to hit by killing something, but usually you also want to fire all your big guns at mortarion because if you dont he will wreck havoc the entire game.
So i can never figure out if i should aim all my guns, that are str 8 or +1 to wound at mortarion, essentially having no klan kulture because nothing dies that round, or kill something else first, and then go for mortarion with fewer guns.
Its an annoying conundrum.
best i can hope for is killing poxwalkers first with big shootas and the like if they bring any.
Simply not killing Mortarion is an option though. Spread out, deny him the possibility to kill multiple units in one turn and, if possible, feed him expendable units. That said, especially squig buggies are fairly good at killing pox walkers and bad at damaging Mortarion, so you could just lob squigs at them to wipe a unit.
Killing Mortarion is nothing but a gear check. You can simply do test rolls against his profile, and if you find your army unable to reliable down him by turn 2, I just wouldn't bother.
Afrodactyl wrote: I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.
I disagree for one faction it would be fitting to have a fearless aura. Tyranids when in synapse range. The hive mind is telling them go here and do that and they have no free will to do anything else. outside of synapse range and when under instinctual behavior i would 100% agree they should have low leadership and have a good chance to run as that is what predators do when there is a threat.
I think ld10 would be enough to showcase the complete lack of free will, they aren't that different to necrons in that regard. Even the hive mind wouldn't just keep tossing its gaunts or gargoyles into the grinder when they get obliterated by the dozen and falling back is an option. The only things that should be absolutely fearless are those without the ability to think.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Slight change of topic before goin g back to ork match ups: do you guys think we can launch sguig bombs while being engaged in CC ? Just like if they were pistol weapons ? They aren’t really a shooting weapon
The only requirement for using them is selecting the unit to shoot, and nothing prevents you from doing that while engaged in combat.
Note that units which have advanced or fallen back are not eligible to shoot and therefore cannot be selected to shoot.
Unless, of course, they contain at least one assault weapon, which allows them to be selected anyways.
Hilariously this means that a unit of kommandoz that has advanced is not allowed to throw their bomb squig UNLESS you buy them a burna
I wouldn't bother with killing Mortarion using orks. Armies like drukhari should definitely go for it, but even the best freebooters lists struggle against that kind of target. I think it's more rewarding if you focus on the other units, score your points and slow down the big guy with expendable units. At least I had decent results againt him by playing this way.
Deathguard in general are a tough opponent for orks though.
I lost agsinst DG on a tournament last Weekend. He had 3 fw drones, 2 cc drones 5 blight haulers, 1 plc, Prince, caster and a summoned Epidemius, I was running a pretty standard flyer speedfreak list with 3 dakkajets, wazbom, 2 scrapjets, 2 squigbuggies, kannonwagon killrig, beastboss, bikeboss and kommandos/ Stormboyz. I never really stood a chance because his units are tougher than mine and have more output with same mobility. Epidemius buffs the cc to S8, so the lawnmower drones ignore ramshackle - I still don't know how I could have won that game...
Epidemius only buffs them to S8 after you have lost 4 units though. Before that happens, the only real threats to your vehicles are the MBH with their multi-meltas and the PBC, so focus them down first. Make sure to play defensively and focus on not feeding the tally. With 4 planes and that much shooting power it should also be possible to create an opening to assassinate epidemius, removing his buff completely.
You only get the rerolls on main weapon if you cast a psychic power which is harder to do when you only have a choice of 6 powers half of which aren’t good or extremely situational.
I think the sweet spot is 2 with some buggy spam so the killrigs become sponges for the buggies.
I’m still waiting to see how they do in tournaments.
Razerous wrote: I played against 3 Kill Rigs and damn are they monstrous!
Is everyone fielding 3, if not why not. And how do you handle them?
I really like Kill Rigs on paper, but despise the model. It's probably the only Ork model in the range currently that I don't like.
Once I settle on an idea as to how I want to convert one, I'll add a few to my list.
There's a list I drafted the other day that I want to muck about with that has 3 kill tanks, 2 kill rigs and a bonebreaker. Just dump 120 T8 wounds in front of your opponent and watch them sweat
What clan and what type of list with Killrig have you met?
Because I' m definitely not sure, Killrigs are something that have to acompany the buggies. Could be, but I think about how to use the, as Goffs with Waaagh or even Great Waaagh. In such case, buggies are not so much in synergy. On the other the Warbikers do…. So maybe Killrigs in the midle, warbikers around and some MekGunz holding the backfield and shoot?
Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.
There's nothing wrong with goff buggies or koptas. Especially if you're running an aggressive assault list with multiple killings.
Goffs is literally the worst clan to take for buggies.
I think the sweet spot is 2 with some buggy spam so the killrigs become sponges for the buggies.
I’m still waiting to see how they do in tournaments.
Agree on two Kill Rigs being the sweet spot.
I think 3 might be ok but for a good list you normally want to have stuff like Kommandos, Stormboys, a few HQ's and some buggies and / or other melee threads, at which point you run out of points fast.
Not to mention traffic jam and opening up on secondaries.
Although there might be a possible list without buggies that triples down on Killrigs and rushes the opponent with Squigbosses, Kommandos, Stormboys, Trukkboys and Squighog Boys.
Tomsug wrote: What clan and what type of list with Killrig have you met?
Because I' m definitely not sure, Killrigs are something that have to acompany the buggies. Could be, but I think about how to use the, as Goffs with Waaagh or even Great Waaagh. In such case, buggies are not so much in synergy. On the other the Warbikers do…. So maybe Killrigs in the midle, warbikers around and some MekGunz holding the backfield and shoot?
Goffs - hitting on 2's (basically) is scary.
The re-roll is to the charge roll, which is baked in. They can also use a strat for 3D6 charges, combined with a Waaah means 4D6 charges (reroll half)
Summary:
1. Orks are cool, definitely in something like top 10 or better. More and more people play orks.
2. We have pretty solid “balanced” proportion between go first - go second - about 9,3%. Which is not good, but definitely better than 21,7% like AdMech.
3. Our secondaries sucks. Nobody takes it and if, scores badly. The most common and most succesfull is Stomp em Good - wtf? Confess! Who play it?
Looks like we are in a good position.. we are not dominating in the top tables to get hit much if at all with the nerf bat… and we have room for growth with the just released models now being allowed in lost tournaments/games…. Plus hopeful with a campaign book 2 addition. I’m happy not being included in the top 3 broken codex list.
I’m just hoping our meta shifts with octarius or something. Biggest hope is some sorts stormboyz wing, dread mob, or green tide. That and all of orkimedes gubbinz from the old ghaz supplement. Mega force field was the best thing for orks in 7th.
With regards to Death Guard, a good trick could be to field som Squigosaurs, and give the Beast Gob to one of them. Then the jaws damage gets pushed to a flat 4, letting them chew up those stinky terminators.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m just hoping our meta shifts with octarius or something. Biggest hope is some sorts stormboyz wing, dread mob, or green tide. That and all of orkimedes gubbinz from the old ghaz supplement. Mega force field was the best thing for orks in 7th.
Dred mob would be fantastic. I got really excited seeing the WALKERZ keyword in the FW Compendium and I immediately got disappointed with the lack of keyword interaction in the new ork codex. Having something to boost taking killa kanz and Morka/Gorkanauts to offset their current lack of klan rules (since most people aren't taking 3 Morka/Gorkanauts in a list) and having Big Meks actually giving them boosts ala Buzzgob rather than struggle to keep up and heal them. Having a KFF that doesn't blow up after using the strat or gives a baseline 5++ aura would be great and other strats/kustom jobs that are more meaningful for our walkerz would be good.
I doubt green tide will be brought back to life via supplement, I'd expect more of a Beast Snagga specific Regiment of Renown if anything.
Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.
Don't forget that something like a skrapjet does around 1/3 of it's damage in mellee.
pismakron wrote: With regards to Death Guard, a good trick could be to field som Squigosaurs, and give the Beast Gob to one of them. Then the jaws damage gets pushed to a flat 4, letting them chew up those stinky terminators.
Not really. You only get 3 bites and a 4++ save fully negates one. 2-3 deathshrouds or 7-8 blightlords can still easily kill a beastboss on squigosaur. You are tossing away an expensive character to kill less than its points. Same is true for Thrakka, by the way.
In my experience this kind of decision is what makes me win many games with my DG, people rely on averages, underestimate how durable they are and how much they can kill in close combat.
Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.
Don't forget that something like a skrapjet does around 1/3 of it's damage in mellee.
I mean kinda, if skrapjets still had the korkscrew upgrade I think they would be fine as Goffs, but with only 4 attacks, they aren't exactly super reliable even with exploding 6's.
Ya the only vehicle I can see benefiting from goff is Killrig with its 14 melee atks. 8 of those atks benefit from the +1 str by hitting those str6 str8 levels. And exploding 6s has a decent chance at going off.
If youre somehow able to get a fist of gork psychic power off on it as well… you have one of the best ork melee vehicles in game. With 16x str8+ atks with exploding 6s.
But on normal buggies I wouldn’t put a buggy in that klan unless I had no other clan to put it in. You are better off with deathskulls reroll for shooting and melee and the 5++ toward invuls.
Getting Scrapjet in melee is either “kill the last bastard” situation or the last round srapjet do something usefull. Rokkit cannon is the blast. It cannot shoot in CC. If you lock scrapjet in CC, you wasted it.
The damage output is not that different... you lose rokkit kannon, which is 6 sots s8 - 2 3flat hitting on 5+ and gain 4 attacks S8 -2 d3 + approx. 1 mw in the charge plus another 4 attacks in the opponents cc phase ( he could of course fall back, but then you wouldn't lose your shooting...), so you basically do double the hits, but with Dd3 instead of flat 3...
gungo wrote: Ya the only vehicle I can see benefiting from goff is Killrig with its 14 melee atks. 8 of those atks benefit from the +1 str by hitting those str6 str8 levels. And exploding 6s has a decent chance at going off.
If youre somehow able to get a fist of gork psychic power off on it as well… you have one of the best ork melee vehicles in game. With 16x str8+ atks with exploding 6s.
But on normal buggies I wouldn’t put a buggy in that klan unless I had no other clan to put it in. You are better off with deathskulls reroll for shooting and melee and the 5++ toward invuls.
Battlewagon, with deff rolla of course, and bonebreaka gain (small) benefits from being goffs too, while they don't really care about other kultures. In my experience they don't get much attention from sources of mortal wounds. Full melee dreads also do. Even gorkanauts, although I think freeboota ones are more effective.
I recently played a game against DG where my Meganobz actually did really good.
My opponent had a Lord and a Sorcerer, PBC, 3 squads of DG, 2 squads of poxwalkers, a shooty helbrute, 2 blight haulers, 5 terminators and a full squad of Posessed at 2K.
I got turn 1 and moved forward with most of my army (Wagon w. MANz, grots and Warboss, Warbikers, Scrapjet, 2x Trukkboyz, Bikerboss, Dakkajet, while a Mega mek with KFF, 10 Boyz and a Kannonwagon stayed at the home objective with 2 Deff Dreads in Tellyporta.
He was bold enough to move his Posessed forward. This meant that I could disembark my 4 Meganobz and Warboss with BKK and Killa Klaw T2 and charge him during the Waaagh.
I actually forgot the +1 attack from the Waaagh, but the Hit 'Em harder stratagem made all the difference moving the MANz to D3, making them perfect for dealing with W2 models with -1 DMG. The MANz together with the Warboss managed to wipe the whole 10 man squad of Posessed, while I downed a 20 man mob of Poxwalkers with shooting.
The Deffdreads tellyported in, and one of them managed to finish off his sorcerer by using Ramming Speed.
He then conceded the game because I had killed his most expensive unit and I held all the midfield objectives.
To be honest I think he still had a chance to win, since the shooting from the rest of his army easily could have cleared me off the objectives and DG are incredibly hard to kill.
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]: ‘Uge Choppa, 6. Might is Right, Big Shoota, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Super Cybork Body
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
1. Warboss as a trukboy…
2. 3 squigbuggies in the back and the rest is very similar to Semper Mortis alpha strike list - stormboyz and kommandos per 10, 3x trukkboyz + herohammer
3. There are 2 squads of NOBZ with Big Choppas!
4. Three different cultures…
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]: ‘Uge Choppa, 6. Might is Right, Big Shoota, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Super Cybork Body
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Stormboyz [6 PL, 120pts] . Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 9x Stormboy: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
1. Warboss as a trukboy…
2. 3 squigbuggies in the back and the rest is very similar to Semper Mortis alpha strike list - stormboyz and kommandos per 10, 3x trukkboyz + herohammer
3. There are 2 squads of NOBZ with Big Choppas!
4. Three different cultures…
Where is the trukk for the deathskull detachment ? It seems to be missing in the list (probably just a copy paste issue, or my eyesignt is going to hell, both are possible )
Very interesting list indeed, but the list auto-loses against the type of battle nun lists I face these days (30 valorous heart celestians...). It may be quite good against many other meta lists though, as it really sends lots of stuff in your face turn 1. I don't see how it deals with drukari raiders other than in CC, and the trade seems catastrophic to me.
It may be very good against grey knights and ad mech though, which evens things out.
A very rock-paper-scissor oriented list. Some of the lists that placed high at tournaments are like that, not really powerful in a TAC environment but if they are "paper" and they have the luck to face only "rock" they'll get great results. Especially if "rock" is quite common to pick, while "scissor" isn't. Always have been a thing in tournaments.
It was my comment 1. that trukk is missing. But then I' ve found, that Trukboy lost the clan keyword, so the evil sunz trukk can take the deathskull trukboy warboss.
I' ve made a check on Nobz
10 Nobz are 210p
- 30 attacks 3+ = 20 hits 7/-1/2
- in 20W 4+ package
For the same price you get
6 MANs with PK - 18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits 10/-3/2 than can be increased to 3
- in 18W 2+ package
It seems to me, MANs are better, hmm?
When Nobz are better is in case they are Goff - more 6s (or 5s) = more extra swings
Why take Nobz instead of MANs ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - DynoBoss with Ard as Nails And Redder paint is cool.
They are pretty similar to each other IMO, but the nobz hit more often which makes them better against infantry - and almost all armies to beat rely on big units of those.
No one wants to discuss match ups (theorycrafted) for this list ? I think it would struggle against deathguard too, in addition to what I said just before
Tomsug wrote: It was my comment 1. that trukk is missing. But then I' ve found, that Trukboy lost the clan keyword, so the evil sunz trukk can take the deathskull trukboy warboss.
I' ve made a check on Nobz
10 Nobz are 210p
- 30 attacks 3+ = 20 hits 7/-1/2
- in 20W 4+ package
For the same price you get
6 MANs with PK - 18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits 10/-3/2 than can be increased to 3
- in 18W 2+ package
It seems to me, MANs are better, hmm?
When Nobz are better is in case they are Goff - more 6s (or 5s) = more extra swings
Why take Nobz instead of MANs ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - DynoBoss with Ard as Nails And Redder paint is cool.
Goff's also give 1 S on charge, that increases the nobz wound range up to 8, so 7 becomes 3+.
List is fine, only thing i would change is the Warboss in mega armored that is not a truckboy with another squig Boss, that boss in mega armor either footslogs or waits inside the truck.
Tomsug wrote: It was my comment 1. that trukk is missing. But then I' ve found, that Trukboy lost the clan keyword, so the evil sunz trukk can take the deathskull trukboy warboss.
I' ve made a check on Nobz
10 Nobz are 210p
- 30 attacks 3+ = 20 hits 7/-1/2
- in 20W 4+ package
For the same price you get
6 MANs with PK - 18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits 10/-3/2 than can be increased to 3
- in 18W 2+ package
It seems to me, MANs are better, hmm?
When Nobz are better is in case they are Goff - more 6s (or 5s) = more extra swings
Why take Nobz instead of MANs ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - DynoBoss with Ard as Nails And Redder paint is cool.
Goff's also give 1 S on charge, that increases the nobz wound range up to 8, so 7 becomes 3+.
List is fine, only thing i would change is the Warboss in mega armored that is not a truckboy with another squig Boss, that boss in mega armor either footslogs or waits inside the truck.
Not if the Nobz are Trukkboyz, as in the list posted. Then they loose their clan kultur.
addnid wrote: No one wants to discuss match ups (theorycrafted) for this list ? I think it would struggle against deathguard too, in addition to what I said just before
Agree, (ironically) the only thing that could probably put a dent into any terminators are those 10 nobz with their trukkboyz warboss.
Tomsug wrote: It was my comment 1. that trukk is missing. But then I' ve found, that Trukboy lost the clan keyword, so the evil sunz trukk can take the deathskull trukboy warboss.
I' ve made a check on Nobz
10 Nobz are 210p
- 30 attacks 3+ = 20 hits 7/-1/2
- in 20W 4+ package
For the same price you get
6 MANs with PK - 18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits 10/-3/2 than can be increased to 3
- in 18W 2+ package
It seems to me, MANs are better, hmm?
When Nobz are better is in case they are Goff - more 6s (or 5s) = more extra swings
Why take Nobz instead of MANs ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - DynoBoss with Ard as Nails And Redder paint is cool.
The nobz get way more attacks. Not only do they get the 30 big choppa attacks but they also get 10 choppa swings too. So you get way more attacks, a few more wounds, and I guess you get a little more movement. I'd be tempted to try it.
Meanwhile manz are tougher but theyve got better weapons for dealing with elites and heavy tanks. I guess it depends on what youre facing for whats gonna work better.
addnid wrote: No one wants to discuss match ups (theorycrafted) for this list ? I think it would struggle against deathguard too, in addition to what I said just before
Agree, (ironically) the only thing that could probably put a dent into any terminators are those 10 nobz with their trukkboyz warboss.
Yeah my tournament meta is full of deathguard and battle nuns (and like any comp meta, the dreaded druk) so with such an army list I don't think one would get very far... I would like to know if he faced any of the 3 armies I mentioned, and if he won, how on earth did he manage that feat !
Tomsug wrote: It was my comment 1. that trukk is missing. But then I' ve found, that Trukboy lost the clan keyword, so the evil sunz trukk can take the deathskull trukboy warboss.
I' ve made a check on Nobz
10 Nobz are 210p
- 30 attacks 3+ = 20 hits 7/-1/2
- in 20W 4+ package
For the same price you get
6 MANs with PK - 18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits 10/-3/2 than can be increased to 3
- in 18W 2+ package
It seems to me, MANs are better, hmm?
When Nobz are better is in case they are Goff - more 6s (or 5s) = more extra swings
Why take Nobz instead of MANs ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - DynoBoss with Ard as Nails And Redder paint is cool.
Goff's also give 1 S on charge, that increases the nobz wound range up to 8, so 7 becomes 3+.
List is fine, only thing i would change is the Warboss in mega armored that is not a truckboy with another squig Boss, that boss in mega armor either footslogs or waits inside the truck.
Not if the Nobz are Trukkboyz, as in the list posted. Then they loose their clan kultur.
Oh your right.. well it's down to preference, want more wounds and ld issues? Or less wounds and fewer ld issues? shrug, would still replace the warlord.
I guess the big things regular nobz have for themselves is being cheaper. A goff big choppa nob hits that nice Str 8 target and has the backup choppa to nick off some extra wounds with here and there. And yeah, for your points you get more attacks.
But Meganobz have the utility of hit em harder, meaning you can counteract -1 dmg abilities or just pump up the damage for 3 wound or bigger targets. Then yeah the durability buff is also useful in a lot of situations.
It does feel like regular Nobz need a little extra something. A bodyguard rule or stratagem to make up for the lack of hit em harder. Maybe something to represent their ability to actually sprint mixed with a need to prove themselves to the boss and the boyz.
It is worth noting that he was running a trukkboyz warboss, and nobz gain more benefit from both the the +1 hit aura and the Waaagh! than the MANz do.
Nobz go from 20 hits to 33.33 MANz go from 9 hits to 16
I also don't think he was using them to fight vehicles or elite infantry, so hit 'em harder would not have mattered much. Nobz with BC work well against infantry with T3 or T4, average saves and possibly FNP. Which describes mainstay units of many armies rather well.
An even if they don't pick their preferred prey, against a T7 vehicle they still throw down a whooping 16.66 damage before the BBK killa klaw boss fights. Unlike your usual trukkboyz, the content of that trukk should easily be able to handle something of the size redemptor or wipe any marines that aren't terminators. And all that with a threat range of ~29". I'm fairly sure he caught quite a few people off guard with this strategy.
A couple of quick newbie questions.
I’m playing again this weekend as I think my buddy wants revenge for the last game. I’m not changing my list too much as it’s a 500pt game again maybe throw in a bomb squig. He is probably going to try to field something to take out my hogs as they were mortal wound machines last game so will probably be fielding something like eradicators or maybe terminators.
1) Last game he kept falling back and shooting. Can ultramarines do this?
2) I wasn’t over impressed with my Dreads damage for the cost. Would I be better with bikes? I’m thinking they may struggle to punch through marine armour.
3) When should I call the waaaagh? I never called it last time as the variable speed of my units meant only one unit at a time was engaged. It says +1 attacks, i assumed this was melee attacks but does it boost shooting too?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively to the bikes I could swap the dread for a trukk and make my boyz and warboss Trukk boyz?
DoktaRoksta wrote: A couple of quick newbie questions.
I’m playing again this weekend as I think my buddy wants revenge for the last game. I’m not changing my list too much as it’s a 500pt game again maybe throw in a bomb squig. He is probably going to try to field something to take out my hogs as they were mortal wound machines last game so will probably be fielding something like eradicators or maybe terminators.
1) Last game he kept falling back and shooting. Can ultramarines do this?
2) I wasn’t over impressed with my Dreads damage for the cost. Would I be better with bikes? I’m thinking they may struggle to punch through marine armour.
3) When should I call the waaaagh? I never called it last time as the variable speed of my units meant only one unit at a time was engaged. It says +1 attacks, i assumed this was melee attacks but does it boost shooting too?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively to the bikes I could swap the dread for a trukk and make my boyz and warboss Trukk boyz?
1) Yes, but be sure to remember that he should have a -1 to hit penalty for doing so.
2) Warbikes would have more speed and durability against most shooting, but it means that you're likely to really rely hard on the SpeedWAAAGH! turns to get their AP-1 for their dakkaguns, and at least T1 you might have to resort to using 2CP on More Dakka since you're not likely within half range that early on. If you're sticking with a warboss rather than a speedboss I wouldn't suggest it because their damage output in CC isn't super stellar against marines. You might want to consider meganobz if you have any transports on hand.
3) This is where deployment makes a big difference since it depends on how many units have been set up for you to make sure you have an optimal charge where everything gets stuck in, otherwise, as you noticed, you fight by piecemeal which allows your opponents to engage you on their terms. If you're really struggling then I would suggest T2 at the latest, the opponent has to somewhat challenge you for the middle because otherwise they usually fall behind on primaries, be prepared to keep guys hidden behind obscuring terrain until the time is right. Your list is too small for an alpha strike Ork army to work, so you'll need to be smart on when you engage.
And no, regular WAAAGH! only gives +1A to when you are in melee combat, not shooting.
3)
DoktaRoksta wrote: A couple of quick newbie questions.
I’m playing again this weekend as I think my buddy wants revenge for the last game. I’m not changing my list too much as it’s a 500pt game again maybe throw in a bomb squig. He is probably going to try to field something to take out my hogs as they were mortal wound machines last game so will probably be fielding something like eradicators or maybe terminators.
1) Last game he kept falling back and shooting. Can ultramarines do this?
2) I wasn’t over impressed with my Dreads damage for the cost. Would I be better with bikes? I’m thinking they may struggle to punch through marine armour.
3) When should I call the waaaagh? I never called it last time as the variable speed of my units meant only one unit at a time was engaged. It says +1 attacks, i assumed this was melee attacks but does it boost shooting too?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively to the bikes I could swap the dread for a trukk and make my boyz and warboss Trukk boyz?
1) Yes, but be sure to remember that he should have a -1 to hit penalty for doing so.
2) Warbikes would have more speed and durability against most shooting, but it means that you're likely to really rely hard on the SpeedWAAAGH! turns to get their AP-1 for their dakkaguns, and at least T1 you might have to resort to using 2CP on More Dakka since you're not likely within half range that early on. If you're sticking with a warboss rather than a speedboss I wouldn't suggest it because their damage output in CC isn't super stellar against marines. You might want to consider meganobz if you have any transports on hand.
3) This is where deployment makes a big difference since it depends on how many units have been set up for you to make sure you have an optimal charge where everything gets stuck in, otherwise, as you noticed, you fight by piecemeal which allows your opponents to engage you on their terms. If you're really struggling then I would suggest T2 at the latest, the opponent has to somewhat challenge you for the middle because otherwise they usually fall behind on primaries, be prepared to keep guys hidden behind obscuring terrain until the time is right. Your list is too small for an alpha strike Ork army to work, so you'll need to be smart on when you engage.
And no, regular WAAAGH! only gives +1A to when you are in melee combat, not shooting.
3)
10 Nobz with Big Choppas (no WAAAGH) but they do have warboss is 30 attacks, 25 hits at S7 with Big Choppa and 10 attacks and 8-9 hits with Choppas at S5.
That is pretty good dmg. I use my trukk boyz as throwaway infantry, a Trukkboy missile if you will, and the warbosses inside hop out turn 2 to wreck what didn't die. This is a more elite version of what I am doing with a bit more backup ranged support.
I do want to point out why the Nobz are better than the Manz. Not only the aforementioned dmg (especially from Choppas) but most weapons I face are high AP, its a bit amusing to watch my opponent go 3 wounds at -3AP just for me to pickup my 9ppm boyz and hes like "I just used a 90pt model to kill 27pts of Boyz :( " LOL!
So with Manz, they would draw more ire from your opponent and give them a great target for ranged firepower.
I am a FIRM believer in target overload. I don't want Nobz or Meganobz or anything that can draw fire unless its also got a big bonus for it. In my last tournament list I swapped out a lot of Stormboyz for Warbikes. Their shoota was ok, their CC was ok, but they were incredibly durable for their price (4pts more than a Nob with BC) they get the same 4+, they have the same T, they have 3 wounds and -1 to hit.
SemperMortis wrote: 10 Nobz with Big Choppas (no WAAAGH) but they do have warboss is 30 attacks, 25 hits at S7 with Big Choppa and 10 attacks and 8-9 hits with Choppas at S5.
That is pretty good dmg. I use my trukk boyz as throwaway infantry, a Trukkboy missile if you will, and the warbosses inside hop out turn 2 to wreck what didn't die. This is a more elite version of what I am doing with a bit more backup ranged support.
I do want to point out why the Nobz are better than the Manz. Not only the aforementioned dmg (especially from Choppas) but most weapons I face are high AP, its a bit amusing to watch my opponent go 3 wounds at -3AP just for me to pickup my 9ppm boyz and hes like "I just used a 90pt model to kill 27pts of Boyz :( " LOL!
So with Manz, they would draw more ire from your opponent and give them a great target for ranged firepower.
I am a FIRM believer in target overload. I don't want Nobz or Meganobz or anything that can draw fire unless its also got a big bonus for it. In my last tournament list I swapped out a lot of Stormboyz for Warbikes. Their shoota was ok, their CC was ok, but they were incredibly durable for their price (4pts more than a Nob with BC) they get the same 4+, they have the same T, they have 3 wounds and -1 to hit.
For that kind of list, with lots of infantries and little amount of vehicles, nobz are definitely superior than meganobz. I play the opposite archetype with lots of buggies, mek gunz, bikes, koptas and other vehicles so those meganobz contribute to saturate the board with multiwounds models at mid-high T.
In a vacuum I prefer the damage the meganobz can deal: with AP-3 and damage 2 (enhanced to 3 with the stratagem) they can play a different role than nobz with big choppas. I for example need an additional unit of heavy hitters, not something that goes against infantries since I have plenty of tools to deal with those anyway, and meganobz are more reliable for that job.
Warbikers - small squads of 3? Or something bigger?
I like squads of 5 in a freeboota detachment, with speedwaaagh buff. I field two of those units. Multiple 3 man squads are also ok, in general 3x3 are better than 2x5 but I typically need to spare a FA slot and don't want to bring just 6 bikes so squads of 5 it is! . For lists involving lots of infantries definitely 3 man squads for multiple reasons: they can be in different places, force the enemy anti tank to split fire and risking to avoid killing a unit or to overkill the bikes but with multiple min squads it's also possible that the appropriate anti bike weapons aren't in range of all the bikes or have LOS to target all of them.
I won again with my 500pt army. My buddy went more tanky this time and it was a far closer game than the last. My dread actually came in handy as he was so focussed on the squigs after the last game
I have a few questions on rules that we weren’t sure about.
1) Waagh adds a melee attack but how about squig jaw attacks? I assumed not but was I right?
2) My opponent activated overwatch with redemptor dreadnaut. Does the flamer auto hit or does he still have to roll a 6?
3) My opponent placed models on top of ruins at the edge. Can I engage them in melee by placing my models at the side of the building or does the vertical distance count?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 4) I charged his redemptor with both my squighogs and deffdread from the front and back. I hit him with the squigs (charging unit) first, then he hit the squigs. Then I hit him with the dread. Is that the right order because he was asking if he could hit my dread, I said no because he chose to hit the squigs and he can’t hit twice in a round.
1) A normal Waagh adds 1 to your attack characteristic, so essentially the rider gets that +1 attack. Not the squighog. The amount of attacks they can make is not influenced by the attack characteristic. 2) The flamer auto hits 3) you can engage him if you are within 1inch horizontally or 5inches vertically. so yes you can engage him. if he is further up than 5 inches then you cannot.
4) Unless he paid 2CP he cannot attack before your charging units have attacked first (unless theres a fight first/Last rule in place). Interruption can be done after you have attacked with 1 unit. So you should hit with your squigs, AND deff dread before he can hit you. Again, unless he paid 2CP to interrupt.
Also im unsure about what you fully mean. You do all charges and then move on to the fight phase. So if both your deff dreads and squigs charge (and thus fight first), he can interrupt after your squigs have exhausted all their attacks, and he can thus attack the deff dread if he pleases. He can attack both units if he wants but he only has 1 turn to attack he cant attack twice. He could also split up attacks between the deff dread and squig hogs if he wants, but he cant exhaust all his attacks on one unit, then do the same thing on another.
Beardedragon wrote: 1)
4) Unless he paid 2CP he cannot attack before your charging units have attacked first (unless theres a fight first/Last rule in place). Interruption can be done after you have attacked with 1 unit. So you should hit with your squigs, AND deff dread before he can hit you. Again, unless he paid 2CP to interrupt.
Also im unsure about what you fully mean. You do all charges and then move on to the fight phase. So if both your deff dreads and squigs charge (and thus fight first), he can interrupt after your squigs have done their first attack, and he can thus attack the deff dread if he pleases. He can attack both units if he wants but he only has 1 turn to attack he cant attack twice. He could also split up attacks between the deff dread and squig hogs if he wants, but he cant exhaust all his attacks on one unit, then do the same thing on another.
Thanks, he exhausted the hits on the hogs and then because I hit him with the dread he wanted another bunch of attacks. I did misinterpret the rules because he was charged by both units but I let him hit the hogs back before I hit with the dread because I thought I had to nominate a unit that charged to hit and he could hit back. As both units charged I should have hit with both units first. No CP were expended so he didn’t interrupt. Ah well, I still won and I don’t feel so bad about looking at the wrong data sheet and accidentally applying the +3 save from the dread to the hogs that turn
Well he certainly dont get a second wave of attacks because hes attacked again. You dont return attacks everytime you get attacked. You have that one single turn to attack back.
Thanks so if I had played right he shouldn’t have hit me anyway because between the hogs and the dread I wiped him. I was actually very proud I took out his redemptor.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Thanks so if I had played right he shouldn’t have hit me anyway because between the hogs and the dread I wiped him. I was actually very proud I took out his redemptor.
correct he shouldnt have any attacks at all. But naturally he should have used 2CP to interrupt as most do that.
Neither of us are very good with the rules so it balances out but if he interrupted I may have lost so I’ll bear that in mind for future engagements. Thanks
Actually that’s wrong, we played as if he interrupted. He just didn’t lose the CP
Tomsug wrote: Nobz - That is right. I' m afraid is that Big Choppas are vulnarable to “damage reduction by 1” which seems to be more and more common.
Warbikers - small squads of 3? Or something bigger?
ATM I run smaller mobz of 3 or 4. Just big enough to be annoying, just small enough to have my opponent frequently under kill them when targeted for destruction.
As far as the vulnerable to -1 dmg...yes, but like I said, I don't take either one I prefer standard trukk boyz because screw it .
With that said, I am tempted to try a silly change to my list this next tournament. instead of 3 units of Trukk boyz, I am thinking, 2 units of Trukk boyz AND 1 Warboss Trukkboy. That way, during a Waaagh my trukk boyz pop out and get +1 to hit. With that said, I am still leaning towards sticking with my current list since its still undefeated.
I like it. Without having played it I would probably look to squeeze it down into two detachments. Maybe a battalion and a vanguard (I think that's the elites one) to save on CP as you're not going for a third boss.
I have a freebootas list i intend to bring to a league in my local gaming hub, and ive gotten to the idea that i wanna use Trukkboyz as a distraction carnifex.
Namely 5 Mega Nobz (or 4) and a Warboss in Mega Armor.
The problem i cant really seem to solve is whether i should run them in 1 truck and save 70 points or 2 trucks. I could run them in two trucks next to each other so that the warboss can give off his +1 to hit aura to the Mega Nobz once they get out of the truck. Furthermore if one truck dies, at the very least, the occupants can jump in to the other truck and simply disembark on turn 2 (as they cant disembark the turn they embarked).
Should I use 2 trucks or should i just hope that 1 truck is enough? In the end, my army doesnt live or die by this combo as im using 3 planes and some buggies + Grot Mega tanks.
Or should i completely change out the trukkboy combo for 2 cheaper Deff Dreads maybe and tellyport them in? But that has some other issues as well as being CP expensive with tellyport and ramming speed, and the other Deff Dread that has to make a 9 inch charge.
I like it. Without having played it I would probably look to squeeze it down into two detachments. Maybe a battalion and a vanguard (I think that's the elites one) to save on CP as you're not going for a third boss.
I only skimmed ithe list and didn't twig all the Trukkboys. Three detachments it is
I've thrown together a triple kill tank, double kill rig list that I'm gonna muck about with for fun for a few games. Nothing serious, just want some time away from buggies.
104 T8 wounds and 72 T5 wounds should be pretty durable and I'm hoping to be able to just brute force things off of objectives.
I have a freebootas list i intend to bring to a league in my local gaming hub, and ive gotten to the idea that i wanna use Trukkboyz as a distraction carnifex.
Namely 5 Mega Nobz (or 4) and a Warboss in Mega Armor.
The problem i cant really seem to solve is whether i should run them in 1 truck and save 70 points or 2 trucks. I could run them in two trucks next to each other so that the warboss can give off his +1 to hit aura to the Mega Nobz once they get out of the truck. Furthermore if one truck dies, at the very least, the occupants can jump in to the other truck and simply disembark on turn 2 (as they cant disembark the turn they embarked).
Should I use 2 trucks or should i just hope that 1 truck is enough? In the end, my army doesnt live or die by this combo as im using 3 planes and some buggies + Grot Mega tanks.
Or should i completely change out the trukkboy combo for 2 cheaper Deff Dreads maybe and tellyport them in? But that has some other issues as well as being CP expensive with tellyport and ramming speed, and the other Deff Dread that has to make a 9 inch charge.
That's how I play my trukk boyz. Lists I currently play are mostly freebooters stuff with a few goffs hitters and two distraction units of trukk boyz. I prefer the trukk boyz over deff dreads as distraction units, the latter are too expensive CPs wise for that role.
For that purpose I think a back up trukk is a waste. For a list with 2x10 big choppa trukk nobz and a trukk warboss it could be totally worthy though. I wouldn't put both nobz/meganobz and the warboss in the same trukk, let alone without an empty trukk as a back up.
So yesterday I played a 2k game vs Necrons with a pretty vehicle heavy Snakebites and Deathskulls list, the Snakebites detachment was built around Mozrog, 2 Nobz on Smasha's and a unit of squighog boys and the deathskulls was my obsecc stormboyz and komandos with a Beastboss, Scrapjet and Squigbuggy, a Wazbom Blastajet and Dakka Jet,a unit of MANZ with kombi skorchas in an open topped battle wagon with a unit of burnaz and a tellyporta MA big mek. The Necron player brought a warrior heavy list with the Void Dragon, a few characters, doomsday ark, some immortals and a big block of skorpekh destroyers (choppy lads). I got first turn and was able to put a ton of pressure into his lines (squig hogs, planes, the scrapjet and kommando's) which meant when the second wave hit (contents of the battlewagon, characters etc.) they were able to unload damage and keep him penned back into his deployment zone for basically the whole game. The Void Dragon ate some vehicles but then Mozrog decided he'd had enough and wanted to have a go at krumping the big sparkly lad and tied him up for a turn, then got back to his feet after being 'killed' which was both awesome and very thematic.
The thing that made the difference for me in this game was really building into our ability to get pressure applied at the start of the game and continue to apply it across the first few turns, while my small units where running around completing actions and scoring points for the secondaries. I think fully embracing orks as a pressure style army in this edition has made me appreciate how strong the book can be and how good the datasheets are without any big need for strats or CP's, in fact i think I spent more points on rerolls than any actual ork strats which as we all know are for the most part pretty underwhelming with a few standouts like ramming speed or tellyporta. The squighog boys making it into combat unscathed was a first and they really hit like a truck, even with only three of them, plus they could take some decent punishment back and kept the necrons busy until the real heavy hitters arrived. I think building lists that are able to apply the early board pressure and keep it there is where a lot of the strength of our book is and just wanted to share a positive experience of playing with an aggressive list that hit hard enough to make that style of play a success
I played against the new orks yesterday and it was a fun game. T5 is quite nice.
It worked out fine after a dicey turn 2, in my favour. Truth be told my opponent always leans on a morkanaught with great effect. But this time he could not figure out how to type it into battlesscribe. Stil, a good field test of the new codex and rules.
Personally I am quite relieved that dakkajets remains playable, but are not stil BS4+!
I have to aks on his behalf though, what are good ranged treats in the codex? All he brought where the jets. And once they dropped he was mostly all melee. What are other good shooting units?
Niiai wrote: I played against the new orks yesterday and it was a fun game. T5 is quite nice.
It worked out fine after a dicey turn 2, in my favour. Truth be told my opponent always leans on a morkanaught with great effect. But this time he could not figure out how to type it into battlesscribe. Stil, a good field test of the new codex and rules.
Personally I am quite relieved that dakkajets remains playable, but are not stil BS4+!
I have to aks on his behalf though, what are good ranged treats in the codex? All he brought where the jets. And once they dropped he was mostly all melee. What are other good shooting units?
Well for starters Freebooters have easy access to +1 to hit in shooting for the whole army, which can be massive. Dakkajets in particular love that trait.
Generally speaking Scrapjets, Squigbuggies, Wazboms, Dakkajets, Warbikes, Deffkoptas, Mek Gunz, Kannonwagon (FW) can all provide very solid shooting. Some of them are also good in melee. Upgraded Gunwagon is also ok but flat out inferior to its FW counterpart, the Kannonwagon. Also from FW there's the Kill Tank which is quite competitive. Other units like all the other buggies, Tankbustas, Lootas, Flash Gitz, Nauts, Dreads, Kanz may have some potential, and with some luck they can definitely work decently at least, but they all are sub optimal options.
Speedwaaagh also enhance vehicles shooting with a point of AP and adds a few more shots for dakka weapons for a couple of turns. This combined with the Freeboota trait is the primary source of reliable ranged threats in the ork codex. Ork shooting units in a vacuum aren't really powerful.
Niiai wrote: I played against the new orks yesterday and it was a fun game. T5 is quite nice.
It worked out fine after a dicey turn 2, in my favour. Truth be told my opponent always leans on a morkanaught with great effect. But this time he could not figure out how to type it into battlesscribe. Stil, a good field test of the new codex and rules.
Personally I am quite relieved that dakkajets remains playable, but are not stil BS4+!
I have to aks on his behalf though, what are good ranged treats in the codex? All he brought where the jets. And once they dropped he was mostly all melee. What are other good shooting units?
Well, you got buggies, warbikes, kannonwagon, mech gun(if you handle the ld), kill rig( sort off, swiss army knife of the orks). If your friend likes big units, the kill tank is also looking good(there was a list with 3). You can make the lootas work... i think?
There are also a lot other stuff that you can take from deffkotas to naughts, but in terms of output the previous ones seem the mos viable. That still does not mean you can't make the work.
That would be about it... nothing more relevant comes to mind.
Tomsug wrote: I 've woke up this morning and my orky FB is full of “orks win this and that” and “tablet Drukhari T1 going second”
Seems people finaly finished the painting and find how to operate Freebotas buggy and jets list.
Btw, the lowest number of jets I see there is 2 Dakkajets and 2 Wazbooms. One of them 3+3, but call it “cancer” already….
Well to be honest our dakkajet is clearly undercosted (when freebooter), but the wazbom is just a decent but very expensive antitank glass canon. If you go second, against any decently built army (one with S8 multidamage shots) you will lose those 210 points t1. 210 points for 12 wounds t6 4+ 5++ is a bit of a problem as it dies to Volkite even with the -1 damage. It is not "Cancer" IMHO, not like ad mech chickens and druk dark lance raiders.
The 120 point dakkajet has no real weakness however, and though it is not in the same league as ad mech flyers, it has the same kind of problem with that built in -1 to hit and those 42 speedwaagh S6 ap-2 shots: Too Damn efficient For Its Points. Perhaps it needs to go up by 10 or 15 points IMHO. It synergises well with sguibuggies, as it can finish off hiding units when the sguigbuggies have all tried and failed, which procures the +1 to hit freebooter.
Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
Tomsug wrote: I 've woke up this morning and my orky FB is full of “orks win this and that” and “tablet Drukhari T1 going second”
Seems people finaly finished the painting and find how to operate Freebotas buggy and jets list.
Btw, the lowest number of jets I see there is 2 Dakkajets and 2 Wazbooms. One of them 3+3, but call it “cancer” already….
Well to be honest our dakkajet is clearly undercosted (when freebooter), but the wazbom is just a decent but very expensive antitank glass canon. If you go second, against any decently built army (one with S8 multidamage shots) you will lose those 210 points t1. 210 points for 12 wounds t6 4+ 5++ is a bit of a problem as it dies to Volkite even with the -1 damage. It is not "Cancer" IMHO, not like ad mech chickens and druk dark lance raiders.
The 120 point dakkajet has no real weakness however, and though it is not in the same league as ad mech flyers, it has the same kind of problem with that built in -1 to hit and those 42 speedwaagh S6 ap-2 shots: Too Damn efficient For Its Points. Perhaps it needs to go up by 10 or 15 points IMHO. It synergises well with sguibuggies, as it can finish off hiding units when the sguigbuggies have all tried and failed, which procures the +1 to hit freebooter.
Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
Tomsug wrote: I 've woke up this morning and my orky FB is full of “orks win this and that” and “tablet Drukhari T1 going second”
Seems people finaly finished the painting and find how to operate Freebotas buggy and jets list.
Btw, the lowest number of jets I see there is 2 Dakkajets and 2 Wazbooms. One of them 3+3, but call it “cancer” already….
Well to be honest our dakkajet is clearly undercosted (when freebooter), but the wazbom is just a decent but very expensive antitank glass canon. If you go second, against any decently built army (one with S8 multidamage shots) you will lose those 210 points t1. 210 points for 12 wounds t6 4+ 5++ is a bit of a problem as it dies to Volkite even with the -1 damage. It is not "Cancer" IMHO, not like ad mech chickens and druk dark lance raiders.
The 120 point dakkajet has no real weakness however, and though it is not in the same league as ad mech flyers, it has the same kind of problem with that built in -1 to hit and those 42 speedwaagh S6 ap-2 shots: Too Damn efficient For Its Points. Perhaps it needs to go up by 10 or 15 points IMHO. It synergises well with sguibuggies, as it can finish off hiding units when the sguigbuggies have all tried and failed, which procures the +1 to hit freebooter.
Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
hah hah it is not that good, stay calm. 15 points is really the maximum it should go up by. You have to build specifically to get it to the level of power I just described.
Ordana wrote: 120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
Your first instinct seems to have forgotten that units like chaingun havocs exist and that dakka jets are BS 5+. It's surely worth a bit more than 120 points, but there are plenty of unit out there that can throw down 14 HITS without using their once per game army rule.
I'd also like to point out that this thread is not for whining about how OP orks are. You open a thread in general for that.
Exactly. I play with dakkajet or two and either my local meta is screwed or it is nothing super cool thanks the BS5+. O lot of bullets in the air, not so much hits
I would never use a non freebooter dakkajet, even if it stayed at 120 points.
The freebooter trait was always a terrible idea, I hated it immediatly when I saw it in our 8th ed codex.
I wish GW would just FAQ freebooter trait to make it something entirely different. I play in a tournament team, if it is there, my teammates expect me to use it... I want it gone
Tomsug wrote: I 've woke up this morning and my orky FB is full of “orks win this and that” and “tablet Drukhari T1 going second”
Seems people finaly finished the painting and find how to operate Freebotas buggy and jets list.
Btw, the lowest number of jets I see there is 2 Dakkajets and 2 Wazbooms. One of them 3+3, but call it “cancer” already….
Well to be honest our dakkajet is clearly undercosted (when freebooter), but the wazbom is just a decent but very expensive antitank glass canon. If you go second, against any decently built army (one with S8 multidamage shots) you will lose those 210 points t1. 210 points for 12 wounds t6 4+ 5++ is a bit of a problem as it dies to Volkite even with the -1 damage. It is not "Cancer" IMHO, not like ad mech chickens and druk dark lance raiders.
The 120 point dakkajet has no real weakness however, and though it is not in the same league as ad mech flyers, it has the same kind of problem with that built in -1 to hit and those 42 speedwaagh S6 ap-2 shots: Too Damn efficient For Its Points. Perhaps it needs to go up by 10 or 15 points IMHO. It synergises well with sguibuggies, as it can finish off hiding units when the sguigbuggies have all tried and failed, which procures the +1 to hit freebooter.
Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
Double the cost and it would still be amazing?
No it wouldnt. it would be 36 shots hitting on 5s, with str 6, -1ap. 1 dmg for 240 points. thats fething trash. You could get 2 Grot Mega tanks fully kitted with 7 scorchas each for only 10 more points total (250). Dakkajets would not see play if it was 240 points.
You only get 42 shots with an extra AP on top for 1 round. then 36 shots again the next round while keeping the extra AP.
Unless you go freebootas and you kill something, you dont actually get to hit on 4s.
Ordana wrote: 120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
I think you are overestimating how good the Dakkajet is. In a non-waagh turn it will kill about 2 intercessors. Thats not bad, but its not great either. Its common in competetive Freeboter lists, but not really prevalent outside of Freeboterz.
… Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
Aah, these rumors. Mostly totaly wrong,so if this is a rumor, I go to make the 4th plane
But honestly - There is a healthy number of models, you want to have. The magic number for trukks, buggies and battlewagons is 3. You can be very flexible and very effective. Anything more is just for temporary screwed meta lists.
The same was with Mek Gunz. The Healthy number was 6 and time prooves, it is right.
The helthy number for planes also use to be 3, but change in the number of Flyier slots in detachements changed it to strange position, where 2 (for one detach) is not enough and 4 is already little bit too much.
Niiai wrote: My regular opponent is an ork. And dakkajets are part if why I do not like to run long fangs. I am sure other armies also have good anti infnatery.
Last game they killed exactly 4 long fangs before I poured my whole turn two of shooting into them. (Bjørns flamers took out the last wound.)
Dakkajet are good at harrasing, or as an atemt to take out hard to reach targets. Good character hunters as well.
I love running my dakkajets, I think they are overly hyped as broken though. they generally hit whatever light armor or infantry is the greatest threat to my buggies and bikers and then they get shot down. turn 2 or 3 they usually earn thier points back or at least close to it and deal with a threat that the rest of my army is ill equipped to deal with because GW seems to think ork weapons should be very short range. you are spot on about the use. logn fangs/devistator squads, imperial guard heavy weapons teams, tau broadsides and the like are the tough nut for orks to crack that the dakke jet is probably out only real answer to. (lootas to an extent in a battlewagon also do the job assuming you can get in range but them plus a battlewagon is a pretty big poitns investment that rarely in my experience earns back its points)
For my GSC they are really something that is close to autoloosing me the game. GSC streanghts comes from melee, and no units in the codex can fly, so no charging. With an inate BS of 4+ they are very hard to hit on 5+. (Yes, with an alpha and some ridgerunners you can get some shots at BS3+, but that means something else is not getting killed.) Flaming them down is an option i suppose.
If GSC do not kill them they run around treaten killing your characters and shoot units of objectives (T3 5+ is not strong.) And they deny deepstrike,
But I must admitt I feared them more when they wher BS4+. Then they killed 7 cultists on averadge.
For my GSC they are really something that is close to autoloosing me the game. GSC streanghts comes from melee, and no units in the codex can fly, so no charging. With an inate BS of 4+ they are very hard to hit on 5+. (Yes, with an alpha and some ridgerunners you can get some shots at BS3+, but that means something else is not getting killed.) Flaming them down is an option i suppose.
If GSC do not kill them they run around treaten killing your characters and shoot units of objectives (T3 5+ is not strong.) And they deny deepstrike,
But I must admitt I feared them more when they wher BS4+. Then they killed 7 cultists on averadge.
To be fair, GSC as an army are a complete mess right now and really not an indicator of a Dakkajet being broken. Your army comp of being a glass cannon without being the cannon also means your army is the ideal target for a Dakkajet's weapons, since you have such weak defenses. I wouldn't use one of the bottom tier armies as a way of measuring how strong a unit is, because then by that standard the Galatus from Custodes, the Redemptor from SM or the Adeptus Mechanicus' flyer would be an absolute nightmare for you.
I agree with you and I was not making the argument that the dakkajet is to powerfull. I am merly pointing out that the power of the dakkajet is very matchupdependant. It is much better T3 1 wound models with BS4+ then say Space Marines. (Although I suppose the more exkstreme example would be that it is good vs T5 BS5+ armies.)
Niiai wrote: I agree with you and I was not making the argument that the dakkajet is to powerfull. I am merly pointing out that the power of the dakkajet is very matchupdependant. It is much better T3 1 wound models with BS4+ then say Space Marines. (Although I suppose the more exkstreme example would be that it is good vs T5 BS5+ armies.)
Ah, gotcha. Sorry, if I misunderstood you. The Dakkajet is basically good value in general that just goes higher in use the more ideal targets they have (i.e. the T3 5+ save infantry you mentioned). It's basically limited from the fact that cheap hordes aren't really a thing anymore in 9th ed on the competitive scene.
I see many competitive SM lists take very few or no units of troop choise, instead taking units that push above their weight class. So that gives the Dakkajet few units in those matchup. Mind you I do not play in a competitive meta, I just watch it from afar. It seems to be very much a game of copying armies that do well instead of trying out new units. (I will not go further into it here.) So the Dakkajet might be less good in those environments. But it is a fun little gem. It is good to see some armies take flyers.
Anyway, thanks for the suggested units that can shoot.
To the rumours of the field manual, I can see Rukkatrukks going up by 10 points just to make them a bit less efficient. Maybe dakkajets going up to 110/120 base as well.
The big one will be how well Kill Rigs perform in the near future. They're very aggressively costed for what they offer, and would probably still be a good choice at 210 apiece.
Maybe Kommandos going up a point? Realistically they're just objective holders/secondary generators, so they might be left alone.
Otherwise pretty much everything we have is costed pretty reasonably. Except grots. But they were too good for too little last book and needed to be snuffed out for a while.
Well I finally got a tournament in with my blood axes. Went 1-2, which for my 4th, 5th, and 6th games with orks I was happy with, especially making do with the models I owned. List
Spoiler:
Whole list is blood axes
Patrol
Biker boss: brutal but kunnin, Killa Klaw, warlord
10 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
X3 deff koptas:1 with kmb and bomb
Dakkajet, x6 supashoota
Outrider
Mega armor big mek: ded shiny shoota, tellyport blasta, ard as nails, -2cp
10 grots
X3 megatrakk scrap jet
5 stormboyz: klaw
5 stormboyz: klaw
5 stormboyz: klaw
3 warbikers:klaw
3 warbikers:klaw
15 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
15 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
Runt herder: no slot, Ive got a plan ladz, finkin cap, -2cp
Kannonwagon:x3 big shoota
Kannonwagon:x3 big shoota
Key takeaways from list in no particular order. Lots of the stuff the pros already know but might be worth reading for other new ork players
Spoiler:
*kannonwagons are great, especially as blood axes. Reliable firepower, hard to tie down, and can even do a bit of melee with rammin speed. Used them very aggressively, often they were in the center of the table by turn 2. Usuallt the big mek would hitch a ride with one and pitch in his shots too. With all the kommandos, fast attack, and dakkajet, opponents rarely could even think of firing at them, and since they keep bs4+ all the way down to one wound, opponents quickly learned they werent worth the effort. Attempts at tagging it in melee never worked since its massive size was hard to wrap and it can fall back and shoot. Excellent unit, especially for a very aggressive ork list. Fills so many niches.
*the big mek was a big utility help to the list. Didnt repair much, but the ability to unload into small enemy units dropping into the backline was great. Would often hitch a ride on the kannonwagons to massively increase his threat radius, mad eit to where he could threaten most of the board. Tellyport blasta was pretty useless though, will be trading it for the forcefield. Will trade ard as nails for Ive got a plan ladz, speaking of which
*the runt herder with Ive got a plan ladz and finkin cap did a good job, but probably wasnt the best unit for the job. Got pretty lucky with cp regen but Im debating on dropping finkin kap just to get a 3rd killy relic. Ive got a plan has a surprising amount of utility. Against armies that had infiltrators, I would deploy my first kommando unit in a dogbone formation strung out across the center, which would screen out a massive area. Once I was done deploying, I would regroup them in terrain. Was a huge boon against the admech player I fought. Need to get more creative with it, theres a lot of potential with tricking opponents in deployment by deploying say the kannonwagons on one side of the boad then shifting to the other side or throwing units into reserve out of the blue.
*speaking of kommandos, they did great. Every opponent and several onlookers were shocked by the durability, and honestly the 40 kommandos seemed most useful when I went second, not first. The sheer amount of firepower and melee required to shift them often meant the rest of the army was untouched for the first turn or two and usually a few would survive to hold objectives into the late game. Bomb squigs are a must for big units, distraction grots hard to say. One game they were a big help, the other two they rarely mattered. Wouldnt bother with the grot unless you have large mobz, whereas id take a bomb squig even on a 5 man unit.
*warbiker boss is a guided missile that stabs things. Realized halfway through the event with this list I wouldve rather had a regular WAAAGH warlord, while still taking this guy. Hit like a truck but the extra 6" threat radius wouldve made a difference. Also wouldve been a big boost for kommandos
*speedwaugh seems a bit meh honestly, at least for what Im trying to do. Big shootas and dakkaguns didnt do a whole lot aside from chip damage. Extra melee attacks and advance and charge wouldve made a bigger difference. Speedwaugh was often a tossup on whether to use it turn 1 or 2. A regular WAAAGH wouldve been a given turn 1 every game.
*single dakkajet is a mixed bag. It drew insane amounts of fire and was surprisingly durable. Never did a ton of damage, but after seeing a single volley no player let it live past turn 2. Im torn, it reliably got engage every game and saved many units from getting shot, but not sure I wouldnt rather have other units.
*scrapjets were similar. They didnt usually do a ton but players were absolutely terrified of them. They werent usually shot until turns 2 to 3 due to the kommandos and dakkajet being in their grill. Ramming speed on them was nice but hard to get good charges with terrain. Probably better as single units. Gonna keep running them for now.
*absolutely needed some sort of aggressive obsec. Lost primaries several times because I had no way to bring obsec up the table. This is probably going to be trukk boy. I just cant think of any other way to get boyz up the table.
*gretchin not great at holding objective but good for a couple ROD's. Ironically kannonwagons did more objective holding than they did. Considering a couple of single mek gunz to leave on home objectives alongside the grots. I honestly think once I tweak this list some most armies wont want to spare the shots to shift them unless the game is already over.
*warbikers, deff koptas, and stormboyz did well, but I used them poorly. Stormboyz are too frail to be fighting with much, and 3 was too many. Two barebones unit for objective work would be fine. Warbikers were very tough for points, shooting was ok, and melee was ok. Main thing with them was utility, they were always able to get to where they were needed. Deff koptas were ok, drew lots of fire and the bomb had a good drop on a tsons player, but overall felt too expensive for what they did.
My three games, quick and dirty breakdown. Dont remember exact points, and bcp is giving me issues.
Spoiler:
*Game 1 admech, a pretty mean little skitarii cohort chock full of infantry, cavalry, and ballistaari, but no planes. Got 1st deploy, zoned out his infiltrators with the dogbone kommandos trick, then got first turn and hit him pretty hard. Kept him pinned in his deployment till the end, when a few infiltrators slipped past and got to my grots and runtherder. Victory, want to say 68-43.
Lack of obsec hurt, but had no issues trading shots with admech. Probably couldve squeeked out 10-15 more points with better play, but I was still learning orks and we didnt make it to turn 5, plus lack of obsec led to me giving up key objectives where thered be several orks but a couple battered skitarii. Skitarii made the best of a bad situation and made me earn it.
*Game Two Thousand sons, lots of rubrics, terminators, tzangors, and sorcerors. Got first turn and deployment. Map didnt have a ton of line of sight obscuring terrain except for both deployment zones, which were effectively walled off, ideal for him to weather my shooting. Didnt have any answer for pyskers except to stab them harder which lead to a lot of kommandos coming down with exploding head. Killed a major chunk of his army over the game, even using a kannonwagon to ramming speed his daemon prince to death, but with obsec terminators there wasnt much I could do for primaries and I forgot to do ROD every. Single. Turn. Loss, 62-97.
Even if I had had a few primaries and ROD, he still wouldve won, but it was frustrating to realize the mistakes I made. Messed his list up pretty good though, by the end of the game he was down to maybe 15 models, half of which were tzangors. Ork shooting punished anything brave enough to go into the open, even with all the pyschic buffs.
*Game 3, Raven guard. Redemptors, a big block of stormshield/LC vanguard vets, bike chaplain with the first turn scout move, two of the primaris forge guys, some jump pack autocannon dudes, some melta buggies, and some assault intercessors. I lost deployment and first turn. His vanguard vets and bike chapoy managed to squeek through a gap in the kommandos and make it to my deployment turn 1. Kommandos actually weathered turn 1 fairly well, two mobs made it through mostly intact, as he sent most of his focus toward my backline and focused on shooting down the scrapjets and dakkajet. Managed to wipe the vanguard vets and a few other units, but it just wasnt fast enough. Between being behind on firepower and no obsec, just couldnt push the RG off of key objectives, with t2 ending with 10 or so kommandos on two of his objectives but losing control to two intercessors on each. Loss, 33-97. Forgot ROD again.
So yeah, next tourney Im writing ROD on my hand with a ballpoint pen so I can remember the stupid objective Going to rework my list a bit to include trukk boyz and reconfigure a few units, but overall I enjoyed the list and feel like I may have something workable with more practice. I really like the in your face style of orks and the ability to fall back and charge or shoot was very handy in every game. Yeah pure blood axes probably isnt the best, but it feels usable, which Im happy with. I feel like a highly aggressive list of kommandos, trukk boyz, bikes, backed up by some solid fire support has some real legs, just not sure what the ideal makeup would be.
Gretchin and Freebooters are a bit unclear to me. Can they give the Freebooters bonus to other Freebooters units like in 8th? And what more is their clan keyword usefull for?
Singleton Mosby wrote: Gretchin and Freebooters are a bit unclear to me. Can they give the Freebooters bonus to other Freebooters units like in 8th? And what more is their clan keyword usefull for?
Mek Guns cannot BENEFIT from the Freeboota's trait, but they can proc it for other units.
Beardedragon wrote: I can already hear the whine because of some bloke lost with his dark eldar army turn 1.
*Reeeeeeee, nerf everything*
Basically I’m just waiting for kommandos to become like, 14 points a pop, then have people praise the internal balance cause they’re no longer vastly better than boys.
Beardedragon wrote: I can already hear the whine because of some bloke lost with his dark eldar army turn 1.
*Reeeeeeee, nerf everything*
Basically I’m just waiting for kommandos to become like, 14 points a pop, then have people praise the internal balance cause they’re no longer vastly better than boys.
Lowkey what I'm worried about in the next update. GW are not merciful towards Orks in general when they do relatively well in tournaments and since we rely on skew lists to do well, it really throws a wrench into our synergy when compared to more independently strong unit-based armies like SM. I'm hoping that if they do give points bumps to things like Kommandos that at least they make guys like tankbustas, lootas and flash gitz cheaper since they're basically nonexistent in most Ork lists.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
As much as that would be amazing, there's no way they're putting down boy points after hyping up the T5 prior to the Ork release, GW wouldn't want that loss of face. Also, grotz are unfortunately doomed to be stuck at the 5 point mark, because that's their price baseline for some bizarre reason this edition, they'll never go below that for a model's cost. I would hope battlewagons get some love considering how inferior they are to kill rigs at the moment.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
As much as that would be amazing, there's no way they're putting down boy points after hyping up the T5 prior to the Ork release, GW wouldn't want that loss of face. Also, grotz are unfortunately doomed to be stuck at the 5 point mark, because that's their price baseline for some bizarre reason this edition, they'll never go below that for a model's cost. I would hope battlewagons get some love considering how inferior they are to kill rigs at the moment.
Yeah. I'm okay with Grots at five... But then Cultists and Conscripts should be at least six.
Basically, GW needs to increase the points on almost everything, to give a little more granularity.
I 'm so stupid! Really I 'm … this is the video of guy beating some Drukhari in T1 in final game of some GT - todays hit of FB. Interesting part starts about 3:00
Do you see the ork deploy? He screens the front with jets. Nobody can charge the buggies over the jets! It did never get in my mind! Gosh…..
The whole t5 change was definitely a hype thing. Like “ooooh big scary t5 orks” but then halving the effectiveness of their invulnerable, way worse charges, and no morale mitigation. Boys are definitely imo a 6-7 point unit at the moment, especially because of the lack of buffs you can give em.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: The whole t5 change was definitely a hype thing. Like “ooooh big scary t5 orks” but then halving the effectiveness of their invulnerable, way worse charges, and no morale mitigation. Boys are definitely imo a 6-7 point unit at the moment, especially because of the lack of buffs you can give em.
Goff boyz can be buffed pretty hard, I say they are an 8 point unit but as it was said, I dont see GW losing face like that and doing the rollback thing on boyz ppm
Perhaps the supplement will have cool stuff for them, like a 5+++ special painboy thing
I expect the nerf bat to overswing hard onto orks. Hearing the amount of people complaining about buggies planes and commandos makes me think Orks wont escape the nerf bat. And I guess people are numb to Admech and dhrukari now because I hear more complaints about orks than I do about either of those armies, and in terms of power its not particularly close still.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well I finally got a tournament in with my blood axes. Went 1-2, which for my 4th, 5th, and 6th games with orks I was happy with, especially making do with the models I owned. List
Spoiler:
Whole list is blood axes
Patrol
Biker boss: brutal but kunnin, Killa Klaw, warlord
10 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
X3 deff koptas:1 with kmb and bomb
Dakkajet, x6 supashoota
Outrider
Mega armor big mek: ded shiny shoota, tellyport blasta, ard as nails, -2cp
10 grots
X3 megatrakk scrap jet
5 stormboyz: klaw
5 stormboyz: klaw
5 stormboyz: klaw
3 warbikers:klaw
3 warbikers:klaw
15 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
15 kommandos: klaw, distraction grot, squig bomb
Runt herder: no slot, Ive got a plan ladz, finkin cap, -2cp
Kannonwagon:x3 big shoota
Kannonwagon:x3 big shoota
Key takeaways from list in no particular order. Lots of the stuff the pros already know but might be worth reading for other new ork players
Spoiler:
*kannonwagons are great, especially as blood axes. Reliable firepower, hard to tie down, and can even do a bit of melee with rammin speed. Used them very aggressively, often they were in the center of the table by turn 2. Usuallt the big mek would hitch a ride with one and pitch in his shots too. With all the kommandos, fast attack, and dakkajet, opponents rarely could even think of firing at them, and since they keep bs4+ all the way down to one wound, opponents quickly learned they werent worth the effort. Attempts at tagging it in melee never worked since its massive size was hard to wrap and it can fall back and shoot. Excellent unit, especially for a very aggressive ork list. Fills so many niches.
*the big mek was a big utility help to the list. Didnt repair much, but the ability to unload into small enemy units dropping into the backline was great. Would often hitch a ride on the kannonwagons to massively increase his threat radius, mad eit to where he could threaten most of the board. Tellyport blasta was pretty useless though, will be trading it for the forcefield. Will trade ard as nails for Ive got a plan ladz, speaking of which
*the runt herder with Ive got a plan ladz and finkin cap did a good job, but probably wasnt the best unit for the job. Got pretty lucky with cp regen but Im debating on dropping finkin kap just to get a 3rd killy relic. Ive got a plan has a surprising amount of utility. Against armies that had infiltrators, I would deploy my first kommando unit in a dogbone formation strung out across the center, which would screen out a massive area. Once I was done deploying, I would regroup them in terrain. Was a huge boon against the admech player I fought. Need to get more creative with it, theres a lot of potential with tricking opponents in deployment by deploying say the kannonwagons on one side of the boad then shifting to the other side or throwing units into reserve out of the blue.
*speaking of kommandos, they did great. Every opponent and several onlookers were shocked by the durability, and honestly the 40 kommandos seemed most useful when I went second, not first. The sheer amount of firepower and melee required to shift them often meant the rest of the army was untouched for the first turn or two and usually a few would survive to hold objectives into the late game. Bomb squigs are a must for big units, distraction grots hard to say. One game they were a big help, the other two they rarely mattered. Wouldnt bother with the grot unless you have large mobz, whereas id take a bomb squig even on a 5 man unit.
*warbiker boss is a guided missile that stabs things. Realized halfway through the event with this list I wouldve rather had a regular WAAAGH warlord, while still taking this guy. Hit like a truck but the extra 6" threat radius wouldve made a difference. Also wouldve been a big boost for kommandos
*speedwaugh seems a bit meh honestly, at least for what Im trying to do. Big shootas and dakkaguns didnt do a whole lot aside from chip damage. Extra melee attacks and advance and charge wouldve made a bigger difference. Speedwaugh was often a tossup on whether to use it turn 1 or 2. A regular WAAAGH wouldve been a given turn 1 every game.
*single dakkajet is a mixed bag. It drew insane amounts of fire and was surprisingly durable. Never did a ton of damage, but after seeing a single volley no player let it live past turn 2. Im torn, it reliably got engage every game and saved many units from getting shot, but not sure I wouldnt rather have other units.
*scrapjets were similar. They didnt usually do a ton but players were absolutely terrified of them. They werent usually shot until turns 2 to 3 due to the kommandos and dakkajet being in their grill. Ramming speed on them was nice but hard to get good charges with terrain. Probably better as single units. Gonna keep running them for now.
*absolutely needed some sort of aggressive obsec. Lost primaries several times because I had no way to bring obsec up the table. This is probably going to be trukk boy. I just cant think of any other way to get boyz up the table.
*gretchin not great at holding objective but good for a couple ROD's. Ironically kannonwagons did more objective holding than they did. Considering a couple of single mek gunz to leave on home objectives alongside the grots. I honestly think once I tweak this list some most armies wont want to spare the shots to shift them unless the game is already over.
*warbikers, deff koptas, and stormboyz did well, but I used them poorly. Stormboyz are too frail to be fighting with much, and 3 was too many. Two barebones unit for objective work would be fine. Warbikers were very tough for points, shooting was ok, and melee was ok. Main thing with them was utility, they were always able to get to where they were needed. Deff koptas were ok, drew lots of fire and the bomb had a good drop on a tsons player, but overall felt too expensive for what they did.
My three games, quick and dirty breakdown. Dont remember exact points, and bcp is giving me issues.
Spoiler:
*Game 1 admech, a pretty mean little skitarii cohort chock full of infantry, cavalry, and ballistaari, but no planes. Got 1st deploy, zoned out his infiltrators with the dogbone kommandos trick, then got first turn and hit him pretty hard. Kept him pinned in his deployment till the end, when a few infiltrators slipped past and got to my grots and runtherder. Victory, want to say 68-43.
Lack of obsec hurt, but had no issues trading shots with admech. Probably couldve squeeked out 10-15 more points with better play, but I was still learning orks and we didnt make it to turn 5, plus lack of obsec led to me giving up key objectives where thered be several orks but a couple battered skitarii. Skitarii made the best of a bad situation and made me earn it.
*Game Two Thousand sons, lots of rubrics, terminators, tzangors, and sorcerors. Got first turn and deployment. Map didnt have a ton of line of sight obscuring terrain except for both deployment zones, which were effectively walled off, ideal for him to weather my shooting. Didnt have any answer for pyskers except to stab them harder which lead to a lot of kommandos coming down with exploding head. Killed a major chunk of his army over the game, even using a kannonwagon to ramming speed his daemon prince to death, but with obsec terminators there wasnt much I could do for primaries and I forgot to do ROD every. Single. Turn. Loss, 62-97.
Even if I had had a few primaries and ROD, he still wouldve won, but it was frustrating to realize the mistakes I made. Messed his list up pretty good though, by the end of the game he was down to maybe 15 models, half of which were tzangors. Ork shooting punished anything brave enough to go into the open, even with all the pyschic buffs.
*Game 3, Raven guard. Redemptors, a big block of stormshield/LC vanguard vets, bike chaplain with the first turn scout move, two of the primaris forge guys, some jump pack autocannon dudes, some melta buggies, and some assault intercessors. I lost deployment and first turn. His vanguard vets and bike chapoy managed to squeek through a gap in the kommandos and make it to my deployment turn 1. Kommandos actually weathered turn 1 fairly well, two mobs made it through mostly intact, as he sent most of his focus toward my backline and focused on shooting down the scrapjets and dakkajet. Managed to wipe the vanguard vets and a few other units, but it just wasnt fast enough. Between being behind on firepower and no obsec, just couldnt push the RG off of key objectives, with t2 ending with 10 or so kommandos on two of his objectives but losing control to two intercessors on each. Loss, 33-97. Forgot ROD again.
So yeah, next tourney Im writing ROD on my hand with a ballpoint pen so I can remember the stupid objective Going to rework my list a bit to include trukk boyz and reconfigure a few units, but overall I enjoyed the list and feel like I may have something workable with more practice. I really like the in your face style of orks and the ability to fall back and charge or shoot was very handy in every game. Yeah pure blood axes probably isnt the best, but it feels usable, which Im happy with. I feel like a highly aggressive list of kommandos, trukk boyz, bikes, backed up by some solid fire support has some real legs, just not sure what the ideal makeup would be.
Have you considered Deathskulls for kommandos? That's obsec and 5+ for MW.
Has for orks nerfs... i believe when I see it, but i find there are other armies way more broken then ours. It's difficult to argue we have broken toys. I have yet to see actual proof that our stuff needs nerfs. Perception with out factual evidence is just that a perception. But this is my opinion. I am still green to the game and green is the best color
Well to be honest our dakkajet is clearly undercosted (when freebooter), but the wazbom is just a decent but very expensive antitank glass canon. If you go second, against any decently built army (one with S8 multidamage shots) you will lose those 210 points t1. 210 points for 12 wounds t6 4+ 5++ is a bit of a problem as it dies to Volkite even with the -1 damage. It is not "Cancer" IMHO, not like ad mech chickens and druk dark lance raiders.
The 120 point dakkajet has no real weakness however, and though it is not in the same league as ad mech flyers, it has the same kind of problem with that built in -1 to hit and those 42 speedwaagh S6 ap-2 shots: Too Damn efficient For Its Points. Perhaps it needs to go up by 10 or 15 points IMHO. It synergises well with sguibuggies, as it can finish off hiding units when the sguigbuggies have all tried and failed, which procures the +1 to hit freebooter.
Apprently, art of war stat dudue (can't remember his name) said he "heard" from reliable sources that "some ork planes and buggies are going up" next munitorum field manual. SO GUYS DONT INVERST TOO MUCH JUST YET but you all already knew that
See, I don't think its undercosted at all. i think its about perfect for what it does. A 120pt Dakkajet gets 24 shots OR 36 at dakka Range. That averages out to 12 hits, against T4 thats 8 wounds and -1AP means 4dmg a turn. The problem is that synergy is a thing and when you team it with +1 to hit from Freebootas +1 shot per gun and -1AP during a WAAAAGH turn it becomes significantly more effective. At that point its putting out 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds and almost 10dmg vs a Marine statline. Against T6 its 7 dmg, still not bad. Its T6, 4+ save and 12 wounds with native -1 to hit. So its reliable, stable and somewhat durable.
So again, the biggest problem is when you give it 1 specific kulture, IE Freeboota. Any other kulture its not a big deal. During a WAAAAGH it only gets 14 hits without that kulture. That lowers its dmg output vs a Marine statline from 10dmg to 6. A good solution would be to give it +1 to hit vs Ground targets and give it a 10-15pt price bump. That way EVERY kulture benefits from the flyer and the Freeboota trait can't proc on it.
120 pts for 42 str 6 ap -2 shots and you think it should go up by 15 points? Is that what 9th edition has come to? My first instinct is that you could literally double its point cost and it would still sound amazing.
Read above. Its a bit ridiculous that people just Lump all those buffs onto the dakkajet as if its always swinging like that. its requires a once a game buff, a warboss to be alive and for you to kill something first in order to get those good results.
Friendly reminder, for 10pts more an Ad Mech player can take 2 Auto-chickens. That works out to on average 10! S7 -1AP 2dmg hits if its using its +1BS doctrina that it gets every turn. That works out to 6.6dmg a turn without any other unit or traits buffing it. And here is the kicker, they have 12 T6 wounds with 3+ save and a 6++ invuln.
Beardedragon wrote: I can already hear the whine because of some bloke lost with his dark eldar army turn 1.
*Reeeeeeee, nerf everything*
Its already happening on facebook. I'm watching people melt down over the fact that orkz won the SoCal open...they seem to completely ignore the fact that Drukhari and Ad-Mech OWNED EVERY OTHER TOP 6 SPOT! I am not exaggerating either, 2nd - 6th place were Drukhari and Ad Mech, 3 Drukhari and 2 Ad Mech. But I have seen more hate towards the 1 ork list that won than all other combined.
Basically I’m just waiting for kommandos to become like, 14 points a pop, then have people praise the internal balance cause they’re no longer vastly better than boys.
This isn't funny to me because I remember the grim days of 7th and index 8th where we had the top tier armies telling Orkz not to complain or whine because they had "Great internal balance". Which was actually true, all our units sucked, so they were in fact balanced against one another. If they nerf Buggies the way I think they are going to, its going to be bad...we will be forced to MSU Ork boyz and maybe some heavy hitters that dodge the nerf bat.
SemperMortis wrote: If they nerf Buggies the way I think they are going to, its going to be bad...we will be forced to MSU Ork boyz and maybe some heavy hitters that dodge the nerf bat.
If they nerf buggies into the ground, you can still use bikers, kannon wagons and deffkoptas for a speedwaaagh, and bikers, hogs and kill rigs for a regular waaagh. Or kill tanks for either one.
If we're gonna be taking a big hit from the nerf bat we still at least have solid alternatives.
I'd hope that any nerfs would also come with buffs. It would be nice if boyz, nobz, killa kans and other mediocre stuff got a point cut at the same time.
I'm just worried that GW is just gonna give us only nerfs.
I certainly hope not. I think their current pricing is great, but the problem is that one clan in particular raises their value disproportionately. A price bump would more likely just result from them dropping out of non-Freebooter lists. Freebooters will still take them and people will still be upset. At the current price, a Dakkajet can underperform in a shooting phase, or die from a good enemy shooting phase before it gets to fire more than once, and I don't feel like I had a huge loss on the investment.
you guys really like to cry doom n gloom....this has been a cycle every ork release that whatever is actually good is gonna get slammed hard. Not even whats actually OP good, no just 'good' good.
I could easily see 2 of the buggies going up a bit because they do feel unusually cheap, but aside from that...the codex is fine... every codex gets a couple point tweaks in the CA here and there.
Stop moaning. Drukhari “expect nerf very soon” two years already. The only they got is small balance.
And the new AdMech? THIS was broken like a hell and pop up few weeks after codex release. Improved Dakkajet is a piece of junk if you compare it to the original chickens etc. And those way the only that got something like a nerf, bud very light and gentle.
Orks are out since summer. The “broken lists” do not use the new models so people play it almost 3 months already. Are we top tier army ruining the tournaments? Well, look at the goonhammer stats. The best you can say is, we are in top 10 and definitely not top 3.
Moaning about ork player smashed down druhkari on SoCal? Look at the video. It was a combination of “anti drukhari list”, good luck and bad luck.
So stop moaning. Go, have a seat and enjoy the game or paint your killrigs