Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
I don't. Make boyz, trukks, and gretchins worthy of their 9, 70 and 5 points instead. GW finally aknowledged that spamming cheap stuff is bad.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
As much as that would be amazing, there's no way they're putting down boy points after hyping up the T5 prior to the Ork release, GW wouldn't want that loss of face. Also, grotz are unfortunately doomed to be stuck at the 5 point mark, because that's their price baseline for some bizarre reason this edition, they'll never go below that for a model's cost. I would hope battlewagons get some love considering how inferior they are to kill rigs at the moment.
Yeah. I'm okay with Grots at five... But then Cultists and Conscripts should be at least six.
Basically, GW needs to increase the points on almost everything, to give a little more granularity.
in what world is a cultist worth more than a guardsmen?
As an aside: Quadruple big shoota / Megablasta deff dread? Yay or nay in freeboters? Normally i think sticking a claw on it to increase its melee capabilities would be normal?
Tomsug wrote: Stop moaning. Drukhari “expect nerf very soon” two years already. The only they got is small balance.
And the new AdMech? THIS was broken like a hell and pop up few weeks after codex release. Improved Dakkajet is a piece of junk if you compare it to the original chickens etc. And those way the only that got something like a nerf, bud very light and gentle.
Orks are out since summer. The “broken lists” do not use the new models so people play it almost 3 months already. Are we top tier army ruining the tournaments? Well, look at the goonhammer stats. The best you can say is, we are in top 10 and definitely not top 3.
Moaning about ork player smashed down druhkari on SoCal? Look at the video. It was a combination of “anti drukhari list”, good luck and bad luck.
So stop moaning. Go, have a seat and enjoy the game or paint your killrigs
I don't see a lot of moaning, so I don't really understand all the "stop moaning" posts
Actually I am on my 15th hour spent on my killrig (well the actual model). It is a long, exhausting, but kind of nice experience. It feels like assembling a boat, but with a sguig and wheels. Painting it is quite long (unless you use spray paint i guess) but it is coming along nicely. I don't know if others are currently doing this, how long did it take you (or how long have you already spent, and think you will need to spend still ?)
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
As much as that would be amazing, there's no way they're putting down boy points after hyping up the T5 prior to the Ork release, GW wouldn't want that loss of face. Also, grotz are unfortunately doomed to be stuck at the 5 point mark, because that's their price baseline for some bizarre reason this edition, they'll never go below that for a model's cost. I would hope battlewagons get some love considering how inferior they are to kill rigs at the moment.
Yeah. I'm okay with Grots at five... But then Cultists and Conscripts should be at least six.
Basically, GW needs to increase the points on almost everything, to give a little more granularity.
in what world is a cultist worth more than a guardsmen?
As an aside: Quadruple big shoota / Megablasta deff dread? Yay or nay in freeboters? Normally i think sticking a claw on it to increase its melee capabilities would be normal?
my counter would be in what world is a gretchin better than a guardsman, conscript or cultist? it was play tested for gretchin to be 2 for 5 points they were barely worth it because they were not able to take actions like they went with, but at least they filled slots at 2.5 points per. at 5 points they should be given a inbuilt minus 1 to hit and be able to take actions. so they would be good for scoring and holding things down but still weak offensively with a crap save.
as for dreds i would always give it at least 1 claw to them, not having a claw means people will likely not fear charging it.
Vineheart01 wrote: you guys really like to cry doom n gloom....this has been a cycle every ork release that whatever is actually good is gonna get slammed hard. Not even whats actually OP good, no just 'good' good.
I could easily see 2 of the buggies going up a bit because they do feel unusually cheap, but aside from that...the codex is fine... every codex gets a couple point tweaks in the CA here and there.
Tomsug wrote: Stop moaning. Drukhari “expect nerf very soon” two years already. The only they got is small balance.
And the new AdMech? THIS was broken like a hell and pop up few weeks after codex release. Improved Dakkajet is a piece of junk if you compare it to the original chickens etc. And those way the only that got something like a nerf, bud very light and gentle.
Orks are out since summer. The “broken lists” do not use the new models so people play it almost 3 months already. Are we top tier army ruining the tournaments? Well, look at the goonhammer stats. The best you can say is, we are in top 10 and definitely not top 3.
Moaning about ork player smashed down druhkari on SoCal? Look at the video. It was a combination of “anti drukhari list”, good luck and bad luck.
So stop moaning. Go, have a seat and enjoy the game or paint your killrigs
Its less "doom and gloom" and more like "experience". In 8th we had the badmoonz gunline filled with shoot twice Lootas. GW nerfed the stratagem Mob up so you couldn't do it anymore which relegated Lootas from being gimmicky but competitive to the garbage pile. Then they gave us the Relic SSAG which was actually pretty good. Especially if you combined it with shoot twice from badmoonz or from the specialist Detachment. As soon as 9th dropped they nerfed that into the ground. You can't even take the relic SSAG anymore and the regular SAG went up a ridiculous amount of points. Late 8th early 9th we had Ghaz/Boyz Spam as a competitive choice. Our codex came out and boyz went up in price again, we are now 50% more expensive than we were. But that wasn't enough, so they also hit boyz with nerfs to all the stratagems that made them competitive, nerfed the ability to assault out of deepstrike, nerfed the buffs given to it by the Weirdboy by making them harder to use and of course slammed them with new Mob rule which is terrible while also changing the games rules to make hordes worse.
I am not saying other factions don't have these same problems, but with orkz, we tend to get our best stuff hit not with Ad Mech style nerfs that leave a unit still competitive, but with hyper nerfs that destroy the units ability to even function in the game. I'd love to say its just GW trying to push new models but even that isn't true. The Orkanaughts were garbage when they were released. Most of the buggies were garbage when released, the Beastboyz are garbage on release. Its actually a statistical outlier when we get something new that is competitive.
Tomsug wrote: Addnid - yeah, it takes a lot and you want two at least
The second one is kustom made and ready to go, but I think it is better to have the actual model + kustom made ones, to be fair to an opponent who expects to play against "normal GW stuff", and see the size of our stuff. Kustom made stuff is good and all, but if none of them are the actual models, at some point it is not great either.
Never ever will I be doing a kill rig again, waaaay to much time and effort to do.
Vineheart01 wrote: you guys really like to cry doom n gloom....this has been a cycle every ork release that whatever is actually good is gonna get slammed hard. Not even whats actually OP good, no just 'good' good.
I could easily see 2 of the buggies going up a bit because they do feel unusually cheap, but aside from that...the codex is fine... every codex gets a couple point tweaks in the CA here and there.
Tomsug wrote: Stop moaning. Drukhari “expect nerf very soon” two years already. The only they got is small balance.
And the new AdMech? THIS was broken like a hell and pop up few weeks after codex release. Improved Dakkajet is a piece of junk if you compare it to the original chickens etc. And those way the only that got something like a nerf, bud very light and gentle.
Orks are out since summer. The “broken lists” do not use the new models so people play it almost 3 months already. Are we top tier army ruining the tournaments? Well, look at the goonhammer stats. The best you can say is, we are in top 10 and definitely not top 3.
Moaning about ork player smashed down druhkari on SoCal? Look at the video. It was a combination of “anti drukhari list”, good luck and bad luck.
So stop moaning. Go, have a seat and enjoy the game or paint your killrigs
Its less "doom and gloom" and more like "experience". In 8th we had the badmoonz gunline filled with shoot twice Lootas. GW nerfed the stratagem Mob up so you couldn't do it anymore which relegated Lootas from being gimmicky but competitive to the garbage pile. Then they gave us the Relic SSAG which was actually pretty good. Especially if you combined it with shoot twice from badmoonz or from the specialist Detachment. As soon as 9th dropped they nerfed that into the ground. You can't even take the relic SSAG anymore and the regular SAG went up a ridiculous amount of points. Late 8th early 9th we had Ghaz/Boyz Spam as a competitive choice. Our codex came out and boyz went up in price again, we are now 50% more expensive than we were. But that wasn't enough, so they also hit boyz with nerfs to all the stratagems that made them competitive, nerfed the ability to assault out of deepstrike, nerfed the buffs given to it by the Weirdboy by making them harder to use and of course slammed them with new Mob rule which is terrible while also changing the games rules to make hordes worse.
I am not saying other factions don't have these same problems, but with orkz, we tend to get our best stuff hit not with Ad Mech style nerfs that leave a unit still competitive, but with hyper nerfs that destroy the units ability to even function in the game. I'd love to say its just GW trying to push new models but even that isn't true. The Orkanaughts were garbage when they were released. Most of the buggies were garbage when released, the Beastboyz are garbage on release. Its actually a statistical outlier when we get something new that is competitive.
Well you are undefeated with only very little of the stuff that is going to get the nerf bat (I haven't heard of kommados getting any point increase), so you should be fine Semper
Well you are undefeated with only very little of the stuff that is going to get the nerf bat (I haven't heard of kommados getting any point increase), so you should be fine Semper
Absolutely true! LOL. But i've almost always played counter meta to what everyone thinks is competitive.
But with that said, even I, Mr. Ork in chief, openly admit Kommandos are under priced, especially internally. A Kommando is literally a Boy with +1 movement, ability to take bomb squig, a 5pt PK, and in cover gets a 3+ save AND gets +1 to wound in cover. There is no situation where boyz are better and with all of that said, how much is a Kommando? 1pt more than a Boy.
Put it another way, 9 Kommandos with a Nob/PK cost 105pts 9 Boyz with a Nob/PK cost 100pts. I also think Boyz are too expensive, but Kommandos are under priced. Boyz should be AT MOST 8ppm, preferably 7, and Kommandos should be 11.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated/? note. I am thinking about possibly trying a Trukk Boy Spam list.
3 Patrol Detachments. Each will have a
Warboss
9 Boyz (Nob W/Double Choppa)
9 Trukkboyz (Nob W/Double Choppa)
1 Unit of 9 Kommandos (Nob W/PK)
1 Unit of 2 Warbikers (Nob/Choppa)
1 Unit of 5 Stormboyz (Nob/Choppa)
2 Trukkz
My go to build for 3 Warbosses is Kombi-Skorcha/PK with Relic Super Cybork, Warboss with Big Choppa Relic Big Choppa, Warboss in Mega Armor, relic Da Krushin Armor. You can mix and match warlord traits/relics to your hearts content. The point being that this works out to exactly 2k points.
The main point is that you have 3 Trukkboyz units with 3 units of Boyz in trukkz with Warbosses in as well coming in behind. The first 3 go in and get stuck in 1st turn, the Stormboyz and warbikers either cap objectives, dakka or join the trukkboyz getting stuck in. The Kommandos meanwhile are absolutely getting stuck in turn 1. After they unload their troops, the trukks than serve as either over watch eaters OR objective holders. Its a modified version of Alphork Strike. All told it works out to 126 Models, All of them are T5-T6. Conversely, you could also switch up the position of a lot of the boyz to give them Evil Sunz and +2 movement for that alpha strike, but its a Meh upgrade at best.
Trukkboyz have a charge range of 17+1D6 + 2D6.
Boyz in Trukk have a 2nd turn charge range of 12+D6 + 5 + D6 +2D6.
Kommandos are 9' from deployment zone and have 6 + D6 +2D6. That puts them on average ON the deployment line for the charge.
Stormboyz are 18' movement +2D6 charge.
Warbikers are 20 + 2D6.
And finally, the one thing that is important to keep in mind, while a trukk is functionally useless (Terrible shooting, terrible in CC) it is a vehicle and CAN use ramming speed to get 3D6 charge with D3 mortals I have literally finished off Mortarion by ramming him with a trukk before Its hilarious and fluffy!
The only issue with this list is that its...boyz. They aren't exactly hard to get rid of,
I think if Kommandos are going to be hit, it will be the PK going up to match the others. Maaaybe them going up a point each, but probably not.
I use two units of Trukkboys in my list, alongside two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys. It's great for getting in early and tying things up, but overall doesn't hit terribly hard outside of the kommandos in cover. The infantry's job is to get into the opponents face quickly, block their movement and generally put so many potential threats on their doorstep that they're forced to deal with them while the buggies, bikers and characters do all of the heavy lifting.
I don't really care about the infantry, and don't think I've had a game where they've survived until the end of play. But as long as they do their job I'm happy.
I think if you're running boys as Trukkboys, then they need to be used as hyper aggressive speed bumps, tying up key units and preventing the opponent from scoring as much. I don't even look to win fights with them, just do enough damage so that the returning attacks aren't too much to weather and things stay tied up.
Boss and Nob Trukkboys are the ones to use of you want that first turn charge to actually hurt.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
I don't. Make boyz, trukks, and gretchins worthy of their 9, 70 and 5 points instead. GW finally aknowledged that spamming cheap stuff is bad.
We’re orks, we’re meant to spam out cheap stuff. Gw ain’t going to make new rules for em anyways, so points drops is the best bet we have.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
I don't. Make boyz, trukks, and gretchins worthy of their 9, 70 and 5 points instead. GW finally aknowledged that spamming cheap stuff is bad.
Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Datasheet changes pretty much never happen after codex release outside of model refreshes and boyz already got their "new" kit. At best we'd have to rely on the 2nd Octarius supplement to overcompensate and provide upgrades of some sort that make boyz, grots and trukks more useful again but I feel like that artificial way of boosting them is just a skeevy way to make more money ala Viligus specialist detachments.
my counter would be in what world is a gretchin better than a guardsman, conscript or cultist? it was play tested for gretchin to be 2 for 5 points they were barely worth it because they were not able to take actions like they went with, but at least they filled slots at 2.5 points per. at 5 points they should be given a inbuilt minus 1 to hit and be able to take actions. so they would be good for scoring and holding things down but still weak offensively with a crap save.
as for dreds i would always give it at least 1 claw to them, not having a claw means people will likely not fear charging it.
Oh absolutely agree that gretchin are worth less but honestly GW kinda messed up on many lower end infantry.....
Yeah, thought so on the dread, albeit a rocket dread would make for a cool looking conversion for my restarted orks.
There's potentially still a place for dreads, but they're massively outshined by buggies, kill rigs, etc. If I were to use them I'd go for one of the following;
Klaw/triple KMB - Stomps round the battlefield taking potshots, abusing the Deathskulls reroll to avoid MWs. Still has enough attacks to make charging with it viable.
4 klaws or Klaw/triple skorcha - Goffs or evil suns, depending on whether you want it to hit really hard or get into combat a turn sooner. All klaws for ripping through hard targets, or skorchas for wiping out chaff squads or blobs of light infantry.
They just need a little something to make them favourable over the alternatives.
Afrodactyl wrote: There's potentially still a place for dreads, but they're massively outshined by buggies, kill rigs, etc. If I were to use them I'd go for one of the following;
Klaw/triple KMB - Stomps round the battlefield taking potshots, abusing the Deathskulls reroll to avoid MWs. Still has enough attacks to make charging with it viable.
4 klaws or Klaw/triple skorcha - Goffs or evil suns, depending on whether you want it to hit really hard or get into combat a turn sooner. All klaws for ripping through hard targets, or skorchas for wiping out chaff squads or blobs of light infantry.
They just need a little something to make them favourable over the alternatives.
Perhaps dreads get a 10 or 15 point decrease in next munitorum manual. Spam dem metal boxes
Afrodactyl wrote: There's potentially still a place for dreads, but they're massively outshined by buggies, kill rigs, etc. If I were to use them I'd go for one of the following;
Klaw/triple KMB - Stomps round the battlefield taking potshots, abusing the Deathskulls reroll to avoid MWs. Still has enough attacks to make charging with it viable.
4 klaws or Klaw/triple skorcha - Goffs or evil suns, depending on whether you want it to hit really hard or get into combat a turn sooner. All klaws for ripping through hard targets, or skorchas for wiping out chaff squads or blobs of light infantry.
They just need a little something to make them favourable over the alternatives.
Yeah, they're in a weird spot where they just aren't that efficient compared to their competition, ideally we get something that makes them stand on their own if we get Dred Mob rules eventually.
Yeah i think its the weirdness that for some reason swapping a klaw/bigshoota for a skorcha/kmb costs 5/10pts more.
A triple/quad skorcha/kmb dread is unusually expensive for what it does.
Afrodactyl wrote: There's potentially still a place for dreads, but they're massively outshined by buggies, kill rigs, etc. If I were to use them I'd go for one of the following;
Klaw/triple KMB - Stomps round the battlefield taking potshots, abusing the Deathskulls reroll to avoid MWs. Still has enough attacks to make charging with it viable.
4 klaws or Klaw/triple skorcha - Goffs or evil suns, depending on whether you want it to hit really hard or get into combat a turn sooner. All klaws for ripping through hard targets, or skorchas for wiping out chaff squads or blobs of light infantry.
They just need a little something to make them favourable over the alternatives.
Yeah, they're in a weird spot where they just aren't that efficient compared to their competition, ideally we get something that makes them stand on their own if we get Dred Mob rules eventually.
They're the same as a lot in the book; in a vacuum they're good, but there's other stuff that's just simply better or cheaper and the original unit ends up being "bad" because it's being compared to its competitors.
In this case deff dreads are primarily competing with buggies, Mek guns and kill rigs.
Buggies offer more firepower and mobility in a cheaper package.
Kill Rigs are faster, are absolute blenders and are twice as durable for just under twice the price.
Mek guns are dirt cheap, accurate and pump out a lot of damage whilst screening board edges or holding objectives.
If we got a Dreadwaaagh type rule that boosted dreads to a decent degree then they would 100% compete with the alternatives.
I don’t see boys, trukks and Gretchin getting anything else this edition.
At best I see an army of renown next campaign book for beastsnaggas or dread mob. (Gw would be silly to give us a speedwaagh army of renown).
I think dread mobs are close to being viable with maybe something like +1 to wound army of renown on all walkerz keyword.
An obj secured specialist unit for killa kans with +1 hit ranged - in dread mob only
And warlord trait to call a dread waaagh on a big Mek.
Anyone else a bit disappointed with the rules for our specialist units?
I mean...besides Trukk boyz none really stand out. And the simplest solution to make them at least somewhat better would be to allow them to keep their Kulture. Trukkboyz as goffs would absolutely be competitive, Kommandos with Sneaky gits would be great. And the best part? They are limited to 1 per detachment, so you couldn't use more than 3 at tournaments which drastically lowers their overall value.
Look at Meganobz for comparison. Goff Meganobz get 3 attacks at S12, they get 1.75 hits (exploding 6s) each. If you make them "Big Krumpaz" they get 3 attacks each which averages.....2 hits, but at S10.
Same thing with Kommandos. Goff Kommandos get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s wounding T4 on 2s, works out to 1dmg each vs a Marine. Sneaky gitz specialist mob gives them 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.3 wounds and 0.88dmg to a Marine.
Sneaky gitz is literally worse for you than taking goffs. But! if you combined the two it works out to 1.38dmg each
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone else a bit disappointed with the rules for our specialist units?
I mean...besides Trukk boyz none really stand out. And the simplest solution to make them at least somewhat better would be to allow them to keep their Kulture. Trukkboyz as goffs would absolutely be competitive, Kommandos with Sneaky gits would be great. And the best part? They are limited to 1 per detachment, so you couldn't use more than 3 at tournaments which drastically lowers their overall value.
Look at Meganobz for comparison. Goff Meganobz get 3 attacks at S12, they get 1.75 hits (exploding 6s) each. If you make them "Big Krumpaz" they get 3 attacks each which averages.....2 hits, but at S10.
Same thing with Kommandos. Goff Kommandos get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s wounding T4 on 2s, works out to 1dmg each vs a Marine. Sneaky gitz specialist mob gives them 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.3 wounds and 0.88dmg to a Marine.
Sneaky gitz is literally worse for you than taking goffs. But! if you combined the two it works out to 1.38dmg each
I guess Pyromaniacs is okay but niche. A lotta the time you'd want your burnaboyz or skorcha nobz in a freebootaz detachment so you'd loose out on that trait for a less swingy flamer output.
Same with Flyboyz, you get some durability but usually you'd want them in a freebootaz list to captalize on the shooting buff.
And even with those three you're always losing a fair bit to get an okay buff.
Also didn't GW change the math on stat buffs (Again!)? So that you multiply strength then add or minus?
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I just want 7 point boys, 45 point trukks. Maybe a big drop on wagons as well.
And put the zoggin grotz back down to 3 for morks sake!
I don't. Make boyz, trukks, and gretchins worthy of their 9, 70 and 5 points instead. GW finally aknowledged that spamming cheap stuff is bad.
We’re orks, we’re meant to spam out cheap stuff. Gw ain’t going to make new rules for em anyways, so points drops is the best bet we have.
Not really, we have an extremely wide roster now so there's no need to spam anything. For example maxing out scrapjets and squigbuggies is wrong when we have 3 other kinds of buggies, koptas, bikes and squigriders for the same army concept. Rather than spamming the few best units an optimized codex should encourage to take a bit of everything. The Drukhari book is gold in this regard.
And our rules are currently quite competitive so we don't even really need points drops on the units that are already played . All those aforementioned units (trukks, grots, boyz) already see competitive gaming . On the contrary I'm expecting at least a couple of points hikes, for sguigbuggy and dakkajet. Units that need a points drop are nauts, kanz and flash gitz, which are never taken in competitive games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone else a bit disappointed with the rules for our specialist units?
I played pyromaniacs burnaboyz in a trukk for some games, but replaced with trukk boyz after a while as they do the exact same thing but more reliably. Big Krumpaz meganobz are ok if you want them but don't play goffs or maybe deathskulls. In a full Freebooters lists for example they can find a niche.
Even if the Dreadwaaagh rule was to make Deff Dreads and/or Killa Kanz Core, that would be great.
I would love to run a spearhead of nine Deff Dreads and fifteen Kans and it actually be viable.
It' s about the speed.
Either this units will shoot better and move slower than buggies.
Or get some kind of moving shenennigas to be playable as CC units.
Or get super durability sheneningas to play the role of TEQ units - hard nut sitting on objective. And than they need to have an obsec.
Slow CC unit without terminators durability is useless imho…
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone else a bit disappointed with the rules for our specialist units?
I mean...besides Trukk boyz none really stand out. And the simplest solution to make them at least somewhat better would be to allow them to keep their Kulture. Trukkboyz as goffs would absolutely be competitive, Kommandos with Sneaky gits would be great. And the best part? They are limited to 1 per detachment, so you couldn't use more than 3 at tournaments which drastically lowers their overall value.
Look at Meganobz for comparison. Goff Meganobz get 3 attacks at S12, they get 1.75 hits (exploding 6s) each. If you make them "Big Krumpaz" they get 3 attacks each which averages.....2 hits, but at S10.
Same thing with Kommandos. Goff Kommandos get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s wounding T4 on 2s, works out to 1dmg each vs a Marine. Sneaky gitz specialist mob gives them 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.3 wounds and 0.88dmg to a Marine.
Sneaky gitz is literally worse for you than taking goffs. But! if you combined the two it works out to 1.38dmg each
Well, I don't play Goffs but Snakebites so for me they're all interesting .
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone else a bit disappointed with the rules for our specialist units?
I mean...besides Trukk boyz none really stand out. And the simplest solution to make them at least somewhat better would be to allow them to keep their Kulture. Trukkboyz as goffs would absolutely be competitive, Kommandos with Sneaky gits would be great. And the best part? They are limited to 1 per detachment, so you couldn't use more than 3 at tournaments which drastically lowers their overall value.
Look at Meganobz for comparison. Goff Meganobz get 3 attacks at S12, they get 1.75 hits (exploding 6s) each. If you make them "Big Krumpaz" they get 3 attacks each which averages.....2 hits, but at S10.
Same thing with Kommandos. Goff Kommandos get 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s wounding T4 on 2s, works out to 1dmg each vs a Marine. Sneaky gitz specialist mob gives them 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.3 wounds and 0.88dmg to a Marine.
Sneaky gitz is literally worse for you than taking goffs. But! if you combined the two it works out to 1.38dmg each
Yeah, it would also solve some of the issues of them not being able to board transports besides trukks like battlewagons or kill tanks. Frankly, it doesn't even make much sense for them to lose a klan trait in exchange given that they should be specialists within a clan, similar to how speed freeks can be part of any klan, even if its usually associated with Evil Sunz.
One of the ways they could make grotz semi-relevant is to allow them access to klan kulturs. Killa Kanz get a slight boost, we get our mini-transhuman Snakebite Grotz. If we can't have both a klan and specialist rule together, probably take out orrible gitz and replace it with the ol Grot Mob specialist.
I don’t see a reason to play any specialist except orrible gitz just to make Gretchin obj secured…
Trukk boyz just feels overpriced and is less of a threat then regular boys but you can use them to make your troop tax for your turn 1 pressure list.
And that’s about it… I literally don’t even take the free specialist option in a detachment most times unless I take Gretchin.
I mean the implementation is better then last version and the idea is sound making a subclan that fits into a detachment that allows you to take other units that don’t necessarily benefit from the main klan but the majority of the subclans are so weak it’s worse off most times. They should have just let the unit stay within the clan so they can benefit from buffs and auras but have a different kultur. And maybe tweak a few specialist mobs so they are slightly better.
if the specialists didnt replace the base klan rules then pretty much all of them would be awesome.
Its only 1 per detachment, so not like we can spam them anyway and most of them are highly situational. I mean, Trukkboyz only works once and even if they survive they arent getting back in the trukk to do it again lol
They don’t need to stack with kultur as that may cause some unintended balance issues.
But the idea was sound… allowing a clan to take a unit that doesn’t benefit from the kultur usually like a shooty unit in a goff detachment that doesn’t really get a benefit from goffs. All I think they really needed was just to make specialist stay the same klan but exchange thier kultur to the specialist kultur this way all the auras and clan buffs still work but you can’t stack kulturs. A few slight buffs to some really bad specialist options as well and it would open up list building a bit more and allow GW the option to add more specialist options later and balance each specialist buff individually.
Even if the Dreadwaaagh rule was to make Deff Dreads and/or Killa Kanz Core, that would be great.
I would love to run a spearhead of nine Deff Dreads and fifteen Kans and it actually be viable.
Deff Dreads should have been a Core unit from the start, not being able to advance and charge during a Waaagh is silly. They just don't move fast enough right now to compete with other options and tend to die before reaching combat unless you bring a KFF and super charge it for a turn.
Even if the Dreadwaaagh rule was to make Deff Dreads and/or Killa Kanz Core, that would be great.
I would love to run a spearhead of nine Deff Dreads and fifteen Kans and it actually be viable.
Deff Dreads should have been a Core unit from the start, not being able to advance and charge during a Waaagh is silly. They just don't move fast enough right now to compete with other options and tend to die before reaching combat unless you bring a KFF and super charge it for a turn.
Yeah, its kinda aggravating that the SM dreds get the core keyword for some reason while Ork Deff Dreadz don't. Especially when dreadz have little to no strat or aura support unlike the Dreadnoughts in SM.
I think its a problem that Freebooterz are so good for shooting, that many units become hard to balance. Logan Heath just annihilated all opposition with his buggy+jets freeboterz list
The problem is that if you nerf these units so that they are balanced in a Freebooterz army, then they become useless in other kulturs. But buggies and jets are definitely going to be hit with the nerfbat.
pismakron wrote: I think its a problem that Freebooterz are so good for shooting, that many units become hard to balance. Logan Heath just annihilated all opposition with his buggy+jets freeboterz list
The problem is that if you nerf these units so that they are balanced in a Freebooterz army, then they become useless in other kulturs. But buggies and jets are definitely going to be hit with the nerfbat.
ugg the worse part here is meta chasers in admech and dark eldar who are now online and in game stores last night going on about how overpowered orks are. meanwhile when I an ork player bring my fast orks of buggies warbikes and planes and wipe out said armies on the regular they always blame their bad dice and "what should have happened". Then when they wipe out a space marine list and i struggle against it they declare "see i should have beaten that army" ... then not understanding when i say "its rock paper sissors of 9th edition bro, your list basically can't beat me most of the time and i can't beat space marines generally"
Also the fact that people keep say "its a problem" that orks took a major when admech and dark eldar have been topping charts for close to a year is rather infuriating. The regular tournament players who i go against (my meta includes soem heavy hitters) would flat out say their best chance against orks is to not face them in a bracket since so few people run them its not hard to do. With a major win people will adapt. I think more marine lists will show up which will just put admech and dark eldar back on top as those ork lists get shredded early on and get down bracketed then thhe same armies will dominate up top.
pismakron wrote: I think its a problem that Freebooterz are so good for shooting, that many units become hard to balance. Logan Heath just annihilated all opposition with his buggy+jets freeboterz list
The problem is that if you nerf these units so that they are balanced in a Freebooterz army, then they become useless in other kulturs. But buggies and jets are definitely going to be hit with the nerfbat.
ugg the worse part here is meta chasers in admech and dark eldar who are now online and in game stores last night going on about how overpowered orks are. meanwhile when I an ork player bring my fast orks of buggies warbikes and planes and wipe out said armies on the regular they always blame their bad dice and "what should have happened". Then when they wipe out a space marine list and i struggle against it they declare "see i should have beaten that army" ... then not understanding when i say "its rock paper sissors of 9th edition bro, your list basically can't beat me most of the time and i can't beat space marines generally"
Also the fact that people keep say "its a problem" that orks took a major when admech and dark eldar have been topping charts for close to a year is rather infuriating. The regular tournament players who i go against (my meta includes soem heavy hitters) would flat out say their best chance against orks is to not face them in a bracket since so few people run them its not hard to do. With a major win people will adapt. I think more marine lists will show up which will just put admech and dark eldar back on top as those ork lists get shredded early on and get down bracketed then thhe same armies will dominate up top.
100%, it’s slightly amusing to see the hysteria about one overwhelming win in one game in one tournament. Sadly there will be fallout from all the whining.
pismakron wrote: I think its a problem that Freebooterz are so good for shooting, that many units become hard to balance. Logan Heath just annihilated all opposition with his buggy+jets freeboterz list
The problem is that if you nerf these units so that they are balanced in a Freebooterz army, then they become useless in other kulturs. But buggies and jets are definitely going to be hit with the nerfbat.
ugg the worse part here is meta chasers in admech and dark eldar who are now online and in game stores last night going on about how overpowered orks are. meanwhile when I an ork player bring my fast orks of buggies warbikes and planes and wipe out said armies on the regular they always blame their bad dice and "what should have happened". Then when they wipe out a space marine list and i struggle against it they declare "see i should have beaten that army" ... then not understanding when i say "its rock paper sissors of 9th edition bro, your list basically can't beat me most of the time and i can't beat space marines generally"
Also the fact that people keep say "its a problem" that orks took a major when admech and dark eldar have been topping charts for close to a year is rather infuriating. The regular tournament players who i go against (my meta includes soem heavy hitters) would flat out say their best chance against orks is to not face them in a bracket since so few people run them its not hard to do. With a major win people will adapt. I think more marine lists will show up which will just put admech and dark eldar back on top as those ork lists get shredded early on and get down bracketed then thhe same armies will dominate up top.
100%, it’s slightly amusing to see the hysteria about one overwhelming win in one game in one tournament. Sadly there will be fallout from all the whining.
Agreed. For whatever reason, having Orks make any competitive showing really triggers a lot of the FoTM tourney people, I think partly because Orks are not a meta-chaser friendly army given how expensive we are to collect and how skew dependent we are that relies a lot of internal understanding of the army versus the point and click "I-Win" buttons of armies that are easier to use and have straightforward strats or units that basically play themselves. Unfortunately, i think a lot of people bought into the general narrative that "Orks are an NPC army" kool aid.
Ive had several people ask me what to get to start playing orks and i just laugh. Orks are probably a contender for the most expensive army because you kinda need EVERYTHING and in multiples.
Ive never met anyone that actually successfully stuck to a one-list build for an army, they always end up buying 1k points more than they needed so they can field some variations. Well, try that with orks and you'll need almost an entirely different set of models to run a different type of list lol.
Ive had several people ask me what to get to start playing orks and i just laugh. Orks are probably a contender for the most expensive army because you kinda need EVERYTHING and in multiples.
Ive never met anyone that actually successfully stuck to a one-list build for an army, they always end up buying 1k points more than they needed so they can field some variations. Well, try that with orks and you'll need almost an entirely different set of models to run a different type of list lol.
Even more expensive (to variate builds) now that we have waagh and speedwaagh, which require totally different models. Would that just be happenstance from GW ? Hah hah, I think not
pismakron wrote: I think its a problem that Freebooterz are so good for shooting, that many units become hard to balance. Logan Heath just annihilated all opposition with his buggy+jets freeboterz list
The problem is that if you nerf these units so that they are balanced in a Freebooterz army, then they become useless in other kulturs. But buggies and jets are definitely going to be hit with the nerfbat.
ugg the worse part here is meta chasers in admech and dark eldar who are now online and in game stores last night going on about how overpowered orks are. meanwhile when I an ork player bring my fast orks of buggies warbikes and planes and wipe out said armies on the regular they always blame their bad dice and "what should have happened". Then when they wipe out a space marine list and i struggle against it they declare "see i should have beaten that army" ... then not understanding when i say "its rock paper sissors of 9th edition bro, your list basically can't beat me most of the time and i can't beat space marines generally"
Also the fact that people keep say "its a problem" that orks took a major when admech and dark eldar have been topping charts for close to a year is rather infuriating. The regular tournament players who i go against (my meta includes soem heavy hitters) would flat out say their best chance against orks is to not face them in a bracket since so few people run them its not hard to do. With a major win people will adapt. I think more marine lists will show up which will just put admech and dark eldar back on top as those ork lists get shredded early on and get down bracketed then thhe same armies will dominate up top.
100%, it’s slightly amusing to see the hysteria about one overwhelming win in one game in one tournament. Sadly there will be fallout from all the whining.
Agreed. For whatever reason, having Orks make any competitive showing really triggers a lot of the FoTM tourney people, I think partly because Orks are not a meta-chaser friendly army given how expensive we are to collect and how skew dependent we are that relies a lot of internal understanding of the army versus the point and click "I-Win" buttons of armies that are easier to use and have straightforward strats or units that basically play themselves. Unfortunately, i think a lot of people bought into the general narrative that "Orks are an NPC army" kool aid.
It kinda happened before when greentide did well in 1-2 tournaments and all of a sudden they screamed al boys were underpriced and broken… this current version however moreso because it was a slaughtering as the dark elder player left his entire low toughness venom army right in max shot Dakka Dakka range or a gunline and had zero protection vs any type of mass volume shooting. Sadly this only means I expect all buggies and flyers to be getting a points hike sooner then later. Irregardless of the fact ad mech and drukari are pushing 60-70% win rates and winning most tournaments… ffs the ork player literally faces 3 dark eldar lists in a row.
I will say that being able to destroy 1,800 points in one phase with a 2,000 point list... That's not good. That shouldn't happen without a downright miracle of dice rolling.
But that's a trend with ALL the Codecs. They're ALL getting more lethal. It's an issue with how GW is steering the game-that Orks list vs. that DE list is simply an extreme example.
Vineheart01 wrote: He faced 3 in a row, with a list clearly intended to beat the snot out of drukari?
Pfft, nowonder he won so easily.
Even better the ork list actually lost a battle during the tournament…
His list was NOT undefeated….
But ya know he won vs an assault list (that was undefeated until that point) with little to no shooting and no real antitank weapons with a shooty tank list and it’s now somehow his army is broken. The amount of raging on this is insane… and this won’t fix the real problem of the ork player using 4 flyers and large base buggies sandwiched between terrain and the board edge to completely screen out all assault. It’s going to be nerf ork buggies and flyers cause I lost. Ignoring the fact NONE of these are new models and the ork codex has been out since July with nearly every tournament since having some varient of freebooter shooting spam using these exact models. Nor does anyone blame the drukari player for taking a pure assault spam list spamming low strength dam 2 weapons that are bad vs orks vehicle only list. No it’s the orks fault cause he played a strong list vs drukari…
JNAProductions wrote: I will say that being able to destroy 1,800 points in one phase with a 2,000 point list... That's not good. That shouldn't happen without a downright miracle of dice rolling.
But that's a trend with ALL the Codecs. They're ALL getting more lethal. It's an issue with how GW is steering the game-that Orks list vs. that DE list is simply an extreme example.
Honestly, and I’m somewhat of a new player, but I don’t see that it’s as big a problem as everyone is making out.
Without assuming any tactical errors from the opponent and knowing:-
1) The Rock, paper, scissors nature of lists.
2) The fact that the ork list was designed to alpha strike and put down shooting.
3) The fact that the ork players list was designed to smash DE.
4) The fact that it’s a dice game.
5) The fact that the DE player with a set list had to pick a high risk strategy to win and rolled badly.
I don’t see it being a huge surprise or an indicator of a broken meta. Having a small list I don’t run rukkatrukks, dakkajets, scrapjets or freebootas so it’s no skin off my nose but a few moderate tweaks in points costs may fix this without trashing the whole Ork codex. Let’s face it, buggy lists and freebooterz are popular because our infantry are underwhelming and couldn’t hit the side of a barn with their shooting mostly.
JNAProductions wrote: How do you get 1.75 hits from 3 attacks, hitting on a 4+ with 6s generating 2 hits?
brain fart, it works out to 2 hits
gungo wrote: I don’t see a reason to play any specialist except orrible gitz just to make Gretchin obj secured…
Trukk boyz just feels overpriced and is less of a threat then regular boys but you can use them to make your troop tax for your turn 1 pressure list.
And that’s about it… I literally don’t even take the free specialist option in a detachment most times unless I take Gretchin.
I mean the implementation is better then last version and the idea is sound making a subclan that fits into a detachment that allows you to take other units that don’t necessarily benefit from the main klan but the majority of the subclans are so weak it’s worse off most times. They should have just let the unit stay within the clan so they can benefit from buffs and auras but have a different kultur. And maybe tweak a few specialist mobs so they are slightly better.
You are basically right. The only reason I take trukk boyz is to add another layer of alpha strike to my list. I finally got a game in against Deathguard last night and it was brutally quick. Turn 1 I had killed his defiler, 2 units of Plague dudes, 2 units of cultists, 1 squad of Plague Marines, his Warlord and a Psyker, all while losing a grand total of...0 models. This completely through the game out of whack and instead of deepstriking his deathshroud and other guys into my rear lines he had to deploy in his own deployment zone or face a possible tabling before they appeared turn 2. It was a practice game for a tournament this weekend, but I felt dirty with how quickly my ork list gutted his army, it was arguably the most one sided battle i've played in 9th.
JNAProductions wrote: I will say that being able to destroy 1,800 points in one phase with a 2,000 point list... That's not good. That shouldn't happen without a downright miracle of dice rolling.
But that's a trend with ALL the Codecs. They're ALL getting more lethal. It's an issue with how GW is steering the game-that Orks list vs. that DE list is simply an extreme example.
Mentioned it above, I tabled 1k pts of Death Guard turn 1, mostly in CC, though my KMKs did work. The game is incredibly deadly right now with a lot of great combos. The alphork strike is great at finding those combos and more importantly is so fast that its capable of applying overwhelming force in specific places of my own choosing.
As far as the tournament goes...yeah, the top 6 was ALL Drukhari and Ad Mech, the ork player was the only army that wasn't one of them, and its been like that for months, yet Orkz are broken and need nerfs....yeah no. I was lucky enough to speak with his opponent for a bit (friend of mine is a GT winner/player) and he said there was literally NO scenario where he would win that game because his army lacked the anti-vehicle firepower to do enough dmg to kill the ork speedwaaagh. I think Nayden said he only had like 5 blasters in the entire list, and most were pistols. It was a perfect storm.
Played a game yesterday with Goffs including Ghazi and Trukk Boys, Meganobs and Warboss against infantry heavy AdMech.
Had 3 patrol detachments:
Spoiler:
Ghazgkull, Wartrike, MA Warboss (Trukkboy)
10 Beast Snaggas in Trukk
10 Trukk Boys in Trukk
5 Meganobs (Trukk Boys) in Trukk with MA Boss
19 Beast Snaggas in Forktress
3 x 1 Scrapyet
2 x 5 Stormboys
1 x 5 Kommandos
Opponent played Mars with Cawl, 4 other standard characters, about 80 Rangers / Vanguards, 10 Infiltrators, 10 Ruststalkers and some Bots. (1 dakka, 1 fist squad)
Since his list did not give up many VP I went for Orktarius data, Engage and Assassinate.
He deployed very defensively utilising all the cover, forests and craters he could which made first turn charges near impossible besides the Infiltrators.
We played Battle lines I think, the one with 4 objectives with 2 of them midfield.
I went first and decided to go for good positioning. My Trukkboys charged the Infiltrators and got annihilated by some mean overwatch and the rest of them died in melee.
His turn he popped the Forktress with his shooting after some AdMech target practice on the poor waggon.
It exploded and took 6 wounds of the Wartrike, 4 from Ghazi and another 5 from a unlucky Scrapyet.
With some more shooting he weakened the 19 Beast Snaggas, killed 1 Scrapyet and his Infiltrators deleted 1 squad of Stormboys I had used for Orktarius.
His castellans deleted the last Beast Snaggas.
My second turn it was time for Waaagh!
Ghazi, MA Warboss, Wartrike and Meganobs killed the fist castellans, 30+ infantry and the infiltrators.
After that came 2 turns of trading brutal blows.
I lost all but 2 trukks, 1 Scrapjet, Kommandos and 1 Squad of stormboys.
Turn 5 he had 2 characters, a few Rangers and his Ruststalkers left who had sneaked on my home objective.
We both scored about 30 points secondaries, but since he basically had to ignore one of the midfield objectives I was able to score 40 and he 30 for primary, which settled the score in my favour in the end.
His screening and positioning has been on spot, and while ignoring one objective costed him primary points, I think it was not too bad as it allowed him to build a good defense line against my Waaagh thread range.
Not sure if commiting more to both midfield objectives would have been a good call for him.
Overall a fantastic game that had some hilarious moments and a lot of brutal action on short distances.
Also there were a lot of important movement and positioning decisions on both sides and we had a very good amount of terrain that made things really interesting.
I really like that kind of list. Many important choices and definitely more interesting than my usual Buggy / Speedwaaagh builds. Also first game since a long time without Squig Buggies. ^^
Might switch Ghazi for a Squigboss next time and get some more Kommandos and / or stuff in transports.
I thought about switching my Warboss for a beastboss on squigasaur but as I understand it , then you don’t get your 2cp patrol cost refunded because the beastboss isn’t a warboss. Is that right?
DoktaRoksta wrote: I thought about switching my Warboss for a beastboss on squigasaur but as I understand it , then you don’t get your 2cp patrol cost refunded because the beastboss isn’t a warboss. Is that right?
You get the rufund for your detachment if it contains your Warlord not if it contains a Warboss.
This might even be something like a Wyrdboy or a Mek.
You do need any warboss as Warlord to get to use Waaagh tough.
Anyway the Squigboss also has the Warboss keyword, so he can both call a Waaagh and counts towards the 1 warboss per detachment rule.
Keep in mind you only get the CP back if he is part of a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade detachment, but none of the specialist detachments like Outrider.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I thought about switching my Warboss for a beastboss on squigasaur but as I understand it , then you don’t get your 2cp patrol cost refunded because the beastboss isn’t a warboss. Is that right?
You get the rufund for your detachment if it contains your Warlord not if it contains a Warboss.
This might even be something like a Wyrdboy or a Mek.
You do need any warboss as Warlord to get to use Waaagh tough.
Anyway the Squigboss also has the Warboss keyword, so he can both call a Waaagh and counts towards the 1 warboss per detachment rule.
Keep in mind you only get the CP back if he is part of a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade detachment, but none of the specialist detachments like Outrider.
That refund can be (if we want speedwaagh) an issue for us because we have the waaagh type sitting also on that detachment (as well as klan strat / relic). So basically we need a patrol to contain a speedboss if we want the refund and the speedwaagh.
For lists like yours which just want the regular waaagh it is not much of an issue
DoktaRoksta wrote: I thought about switching my Warboss for a beastboss on squigasaur but as I understand it , then you don’t get your 2cp patrol cost refunded because the beastboss isn’t a warboss. Is that right?
You get the rufund for your detachment if it contains your Warlord not if it contains a Warboss.
This might even be something like a Wyrdboy or a Mek.
You do need any warboss as Warlord to get to use Waaagh tough.
Anyway the Squigboss also has the Warboss keyword, so he can both call a Waaagh and counts towards the 1 warboss per detachment rule.
Keep in mind you only get the CP back if he is part of a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade detachment, but none of the specialist detachments like Outrider.
Hmmm maybe BattleScribe was just misleading me on the CP costs then. I’ll check the Codex, thanks!
And it’s a patrol so should be eligible for the refund as I understand.
Yeah you will get that 2 CP refund from the patrol.
And yes, battlescribe is not a 100% correct which is why I always double check and use the codex or my reference cheat sheet for rules and profiles.
Last I checked orks had at least 10 things wrong, same for my other armies.
Sometimes it's just something like one digit in a profile but it's special rules like that as well.
@addnid: True, its especially tricky if you mix clans and your Warlord wants to be in a certain specialist detachment for a trait or to unlock a clan relic or strategem.
Unless you want trukkboys it's essentially what kind of tax you prefer: CP or points for gretchin or boys to fill that 1 troop slot.
If you would get a refund for specialist detachments you would see even less boys / grots in (some) ork lists.
there are some limitations on battlescribe. as an example nob on smasha squig. should not take up a slot when you have beastriders but there is no way i have found to do this, you always get that warning of too many fast attack slots when the nob should not be taking up one.
G00fySmiley wrote: there are some limitations on battlescribe. as an example nob on smasha squig. should not take up a slot when you have beastriders but there is no way i have found to do this, you always get that warning of too many fast attack slots when the nob should not be taking up one.
Add squigboys to your FA slot then scroll up to "No Force Org" and you will be able to add a Nob on Squig there.
Battlescribe is typically accurate for points and slot restrictions, i dont think ive found any issues except of course when they just changed. Anything rule-wise i take with a grain of salt because it is often wrong. Dont even look at the Bikerboss sheet, its kind of a mess. Its like...half updated? Theres stuff from the FAQ in there but also stuff that the FAQ removed.
Also we cannot give kustom jobs to FW models at all via battlescribe, which is completely wrong. Shokka Hull just says "vehicle" so you can totally give it to any FW vehicle.
G00fySmiley wrote: ahh did not see there, thanks! i shall have lists without that orange eclimation point again for my 9 squig hog boyz with 6 nob riders
Do note that the Rule of 3 still applies even if they arent taking a slot, it just means they dont fill out your slots.
G00fySmiley wrote: ahh did not see there, thanks! i shall have lists without that orange eclimation point again for my 9 squig hog boyz with 6 nob riders
Do note that the Rule of 3 still applies even if they arent taking a slot, it just means they dont fill out your slots.
my squig list is the open war/ open play list. its not even close to competitive just a bunch of pig riders with my group we do these with more themes to army than makeup but power level is still taken into account.
I watched the stream where the work player pretty much tables the DE player in one turn. Here are my thoughts:
1. The work player purposely placed his Mel gunz where they would be vulnerable, the DE player took the bait
2. The DE player went first and was probably afraid of the amount of firepower that the ork player could put out, this caused him to be more aggressive than he should have been, considering that the planes were screening most of his army
3. DE and Orks can actually be very similar armies in some respects, would the internet be complaining of the opposite had occurred, or a DR army managed to turn 1 alpha strike another DR army, I don't think so
There is some built in bias that is going on, as well as players not acknowledging that the DR player for outplayed.
I think the issue is Sean is a nice guy and a well respected player who got absolutely man handled in this game by taking a win at all cost tactic that backfired because he felt he had no
Other Choice. He claims even if he fell back and counter charged later he would have still been tabled (maybe turn 3) and he’s probably right.
But that’s not necessarily the ork codex fault… Sean took an army with low antitank but extreme assault and fragile. It was hard countered by a shooty vehicle spam list that Sean had no answer for… is this the ork codex fault? Or Sean list building fault? Does drukari not have enough anti tank in thier codex? They do btw….
So we are back to the jist of the complaints people don’t like rock, paper, scissors play that even one of the best players can’t overcome because they lose during list building when they make a skew army to combat 2 wound elite squads instead of anti tank. They don’t like the fact even when someone places themselves in the absolute worst position possible they can lose 75% of thier army from making a bad decision that backfired. And I’m not saying Sean had a lot of choice here. I’m saying he could not have made a worst list and placed it in a worst position if he tried vs this ork build.
The bottom line is this.. orks have a balanced 50% win rate, orks have a high to mid high range in placing a in major tournaments.. orks are still less then 10% of all placings. And most importantly outside of drukari orks are not wiping out most armies off the table… the vast majority of other competitive codexs ad mech, greyknights, space marines, adeptus soritas, deathguard, t-sons, etc are all tough fights for orks.
However currently drukari make up ~25% of all tournament placings.. currently drukari have a 60%+ win rate… and when an ork list gets to the top tables as it did in this 1 tournament where the player faced 3x drukari armies in a row the ork codex and it’s 1 competitive build seems a lot more powerful Becuase they hard counter drukari… that is the issue…and people lost thier freakin minds afterwards.
Gungo - absolutely agree! One type of spam dominate the game so long everybody already consider it “normal” and freak out…-
Automatically Appended Next Post: What will honestly shift our meta is some type of secondary giving us a chance to score a different way than just smash anybody from the table.
On the other other side… why? What is the better and more stylish ork tactic than smash everybody from the table.
Tomsug wrote: Gungo - absolutely agree! One type of spam dominate the game so long everybody already consider it “normal” and freak out…-
Automatically Appended Next Post: What will honestly shift our meta is some type of secondary giving us a chance to score a different way than just smash anybody from the table.
On the other other side… why? What is the better and more stylish ork tactic than smash everybody from the table.
We asked for more dakka. We get more dakka
Wo't you git? We need more dakka!
On a serious note, loving the bikes.. but i am thorn, got a kit to build a dakkajet or wazbom and can't decide which . I wanted the dakkajet initially but the wazboom looks so good i am melting...
I've been running 3x max bikes and it has been kicking butt. The bikes getting 3 wounds each and -1 to hit makes chewing through 27 of them super tough for the opponent.
Tomsug wrote: Gungo - absolutely agree! One type of spam dominate the game so long everybody already consider it “normal” and freak out…-
Automatically Appended Next Post: What will honestly shift our meta is some type of secondary giving us a chance to score a different way than just smash anybody from the table.
On the other other side… why? What is the better and more stylish ork tactic than smash everybody from the table.
We asked for more dakka. We get more dakka
Wo't you git? We need more dakka!
On a serious note, loving the bikes.. but i am thorn, got a kit to build a dakkajet or wazbom and can't decide which . I wanted the dakkajet initially but the wazboom looks so good i am melting...
On a serious note, loving the bikes.. but i am thorn, got a kit to build a dakkajet or wazbom and can't decide which . I wanted the dakkajet initially but the wazboom looks so good i am melting...
Yeah, we got more dakka, but we need even more!
Magnets! Not only because changing of the weapons, but also because wings off = 200x better transport.
I feel sad that we still can't have looted vehicle rules in proper competitive play, but I'll look forward to what system they'll let us use in Crusade.
Very surprised that its Blood Axes getting extra love though, usually they're one of the most neglected subfactions for Orks, with Ghazzy's WAAAGH! getting the most attention. Hopefully they make it emphasize their ability to strategize and mobilize their units. I am glad we're getting Speed Freeks but I think the main disappointing thing is a lack of Dred Mob, we still have no real support for a walker based army.
Yes i hate myself every time i have to transport them. They definitely arent being transported in a secure manner.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isnt a Morkanaut piloted by a Big Mek? Im surprised it didnt receive BS 4
I think so usually, or it could just be a Mekboy. Either way, I agree that Morkanauts should have BS4+ base given that its a LoW now. Gorkanauts should have W2+ base instead to reflect their fightiness. Stompas should honestly be WS2+ and BS4+ to show they're effectively the best of both worlds, but that's for a different thread.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: I've been running 3x max bikes and it has been kicking butt. The bikes getting 3 wounds each and -1 to hit makes chewing through 27 of them super tough for the opponent.
Thats the bad part, you don't have to chew threw all 27 of them. In a mob of 9 you just need to kill 4 to get a 50% chance to fail morale. And if you fail, you lose 1, you are now below 50% and you have a better than average chance to lose another 1 to morale. Its not as ridiculous as Ork infantry but still something to consider.
With that said, I have been running them as Goffs, their job is to be a distraction unit that has enough oomph to get stuck in or hang back and dakka to their hearts content. Even in Goff, and even at long range they average 6 hits for 75pts, not great, but not terrible.
In my list they are absolutely the light weights in terms of CCdmg, but they are a relatively big foot print unit that scares people, and any firepower directed at them is shots saved from targeting my real threats, Kommandos and Trukk Boyz.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: I've been running 3x max bikes and it has been kicking butt. The bikes getting 3 wounds each and -1 to hit makes chewing through 27 of them super tough for the opponent.
Thats the bad part, you don't have to chew threw all 27 of them. In a mob of 9 you just need to kill 4 to get a 50% chance to fail morale. And if you fail, you lose 1, you are now below 50% and you have a better than average chance to lose another 1 to morale. Its not as ridiculous as Ork infantry but still something to consider.
With that said, I have been running them as Goffs, their job is to be a distraction unit that has enough oomph to get stuck in or hang back and dakka to their hearts content. Even in Goff, and even at long range they average 6 hits for 75pts, not great, but not terrible.
In my list they are absolutely the light weights in terms of CCdmg, but they are a relatively big foot print unit that scares people, and any firepower directed at them is shots saved from targeting my real threats, Kommandos and Trukk Boyz.
I actually prefer them for the shooting, get in close to get the 10 (12 on speed waagh) shoots per bike( i like 6 bikes that's 60 shoots or 72) at BS 5 is insane against infantary + their s5 shoots, played well their like boyz on steroids but that can actually shoot! I wish boyz were more like the warbikes!
I actually prefer them for the shooting, get in close to get the 10 (12 on speed waagh) shoots per bike at BS 5 is insane against infantary + their s5 shoots, played well their like boyz on steroids but that can actually shoot! I wish boyz were more like the warbikes!
At half range they go up to 10 hits a turn for a unit of 3. Works out to 2.2 dmg, or 1 dead Marine a turn. During the Speed Waaagh its better, it goes to 4dmg, or 2 dead Marines, and if you are freeboota and proc, it goes to 6dmg or 3 dead Marines a turn. Not bad for a 75pt unit. But, the gist is that they REQUIRE the speedwaaagh to really be doing work in the shooting phase. I use mine to harass and add weight to an alpha strike if necessary.
In my last few games I TABLED 4 opponents in a row. The sheer alpha strike potential from these guys is insane. I had a friend ask how I would play against this list and my only thought was to use sacrificial speed bump units, but even then they would have to be fairly well placed, otherwise i'll just go around it. But beyond that, I can't think of anything that would really work. I was even able to 1 shot Typhus with a squad of Kommandos
Disappointed we are getting a speedfreak army of renown. It’s like the one list we didn’t need buffed. I was really hoping for dread waaagh or heck beastsnagga…
The funniest thing is even if freebooter gets nerfed due to the ork freak out at SoCal this book is bringing a bloodaxe supplement which is probably better for buggies anyway. I’m happy for bloodaxes but neither of these buffs are going to help with people literally losing it right now.
its entirely possible the speedfreek of renoun list is garbage restriction anyway, since almost all of the renouns have a disgusting limitation.
All vehicles or bikes wouldnt really stop us from using it obviously but if it was "all buggies in squads of 3" it could be obnoxious enough where it doesnt show up.
Vineheart01 wrote: its entirely possible the speedfreek of renoun list is garbage restriction anyway, since almost all of the renouns have a disgusting limitation.
All vehicles or bikes wouldnt really stop us from using it obviously but if it was "all buggies in squads of 3" it could be obnoxious enough where it doesnt show up.
Still disappointed it’s not a buff to another type of list build.
Judging from other armies of renown, it is possible that the speed freeks do not get to chose their clan (locked into ES, for example). There will also be limits on what units you can take, traditionally the don't have walkers.
So, after this weekends Tournament where my Ork list went undefeated yet again I can safely say that the Alphork strike list is my go to list for the next GT. Its just...ridiculous.
Game 1: Death Guard.
Deathguard placed their terminators in deepstrike and deployed as normal, with poxwalkers and a unit of plaguemarines backing up some haulers and other things. Turn 1 Death Guard won the roll off and went first, moved a bit forward towards center objectives and otherwise just stayed put and dropped some shots on my orkz. He focused his heavy fire on my warbikes and trukkz and it was mostly ineffectual. All told I lost a unit of 3 Warbikers and a couple wounds off a trukk. My turn the kommandos who he ignored, the trukk boyz and the deffkoptas/warbikes all bum rushed forward. 2x Kommandos were able to get within 7 of the artillery park and drop some Bomb squigs on them which did 5 Mortals. The Koptas gunned down another one entirely (6D3 shots rolled 15 shots, 9 hits which ended with overkill) The trukk boyz and other kommando mob got stuck in and decimated all the infantry targets while the 2x Kommando units wiped out the last artillery vehicle. End of Turn 1 I owned all objectives and had gutted his army leaving him with basically just a unit of poxwalkers and a really confused Typhus on the table. On his turn he deployed all his reserves onto his own board side because he was about to get tabled. He was able to rally a bit but at the end of the 2nd turn he conceded.
Game 2: Ad Mech
Ad mech deployed as per the norm as well. chickenwalkers/dunecrawlers backed up by infantry gun lines. This guy went pretty hard into Chickenwalkers, bringing 3x5 las chickens. I lost the roll off yet again and he went first. Fearing his chickens (rightfully) I deployed my Trukkz out of LOS but left my Mek gunz exposed to draw fire. End of turn 1 my Mek Gunz were toast, but thanks to positioning and poor target prioritization my Trukkz, warbikes, koptas and kommandos were basically intact. I did lose 3 Kommandos in 1 mob but he stopped shooting them when he realized how ridiculously durable they were in cover. On my Turn I yet again surprised my opponent by being able to get into his deployment zone and get stuck in turn 1. The Koptas popped a dunecrawler and then got stuck into CC with the help of a trukk boyz unit against a unit of chickenwalkers. My kommados were able to tie up all his other gunline units Except his last dunecrawler. Popping tankbusta strat and using my Bomb squigs i was able to kill his Dunecrawler and my Kommandos took out the Chickenwalkers with assistance from the other trukkboyz and Koptas, who enjoy being S6 with 9 attacks on the charge during a WAAAAGH! Opponent conceded end of turn 1, he had lost close to 1k points of his Chickenwalkers/Dunecrawlers and his infantry were tied up in CC against targets they didn't want to be in CC with.
Game 3: Tau (believe it or not)
Tau player was running a Superheavy and broadside spam, Yet again I deployed out of LOS with my trukk, put my kommandos back in cover and left everything else in the open to draw fire. The Superheavy was able to delete a mek gun and pick off a couple Kommandos with secondary weapons, the broadsides killed another, and the trukk took some dmg (4) from indirect weapon fire, he was a bit perturbed when he hit my Koptas with D2 weapons that they get -1Dmg against S7 and below saved a kopta for sure. Repeating the exact same math as the last two games, my opponent deployed in such a way that allowed me to get trukkboyz stuck in turn 1, Kommandos to get stuck into his lines turn 1 except for 1 unit of Kommandos who went after a forward deployed pathfinder squad and most importantly my surviving mek gunz were able to decimate an entire unit of broadsides.
End of turn 1 against the Tau I had wiped out a unit of Broadsides, killed all his pathfinders, killed all but 1 unit of Firewarriors and had managed to tag his ethereal. On his 2nd turn he finished off the mek gunz and was able to pop a unit of bikers and a unit of trukkboyz who had killed all their opponents and were stuck in the open, but in CC I killed his ethereal and tagged his Superheavy which made it basically GG, on my 2nd turn the warbosses hopped out of the trukkz and killed his Battlesuit warlord and most importantly, my Warlord strode over to the Superheavy with his BBK Warlord trait and 1 shotted it with the help of the Kommandos. Game ended turn 3 when my opponent conceded that he would never get enough mobility to escape and capture objectives to gain points.
You can keep the freeboota nonsense, i'll gladly take my alphork strike!
Because i dont really like the idea of running a speed waaagh, i too, want to go normal waaagh. Although i need more stormboyz and kommandos to do that. i dont even own any stormboyz and i only have 10 kommandos.
Because i dont really like the idea of running a speed waaagh, i too, want to go normal waaagh. Although i need more stormboyz and kommandos to do that. i dont even own any stormboyz and i only have 10 kommandos.
I Traded out the Stormboyz for more DeffKoptas/warbikes since they tended to draw fire and with their craptastic defense profile they died far too easily. This gives me a decent amount of anti-flyer firepower/CC ability, on a waaagh turn a Kopta gets 9 attacks at S6 with exploding 6s. And since they are vehicles you can Ramming speed them if you want.
Little sad about the Stormboyz not being worth taking since I have 60-70 of them
The point is not to go for objectives, its to krump your opponent's lines turn 1 with enough oomph to guarantee a victory. After that you can score at your own leisure since you have a lot of very fast units and the enemy can't stop you anymore.
Beardedragon wrote: Is there a reason you picked Warbosses over Beast bosses on squiggosaurs?
Price (40 pts cheaper or so) and stick them in a trukk to help a bit. The only problem is that their aura is usless on the trukkboyz, but it's not that terrible.
Beardedragon wrote: Is there a reason you picked Warbosses over Beast bosses on squiggosaurs?
I put two of them in Trukkz to go with the Trukkboyz and get stuck in as quick as possible. They are also significantly cheaper and do about less but similar dmg for the most part. Another reason not to take Beastboss on Squigs is that they don't benefit my list except as beat sticks. On top of that, the warbosses move 12' turn 1, get out and move 5 so turn 2 they have crossed 20' of the board, the same as the squigz. I might switch out the Mega Warboss for the Beastboss on Squigosaur for added dmg potential, but I would have to scrounge out another 30pts from somewhere, and the only thing I can think to do would be to remove a unit :(
I also forgot to mention I had a weirdboy in there as well. He takes Fists and Da Jump.
Two conclusions:
1. I was moaning about stupid secondaries. I was a fool! Who cares about the secondaries. Just krump them all of the table. That is the common aspect of both - Freebota spam and your Alphork waaagh.
2. The main reason why take the mek gunz is to draw a fire
Two conclusions:
1. I was moaning about stupid secondaries. I was a fool! Who cares about the secondaries. Just krump them all of the table. That is the common aspect of both - Freebota spam and your Alphork waaagh.
2. The main reason why take the mek gunz is to draw a fire
And they draw fire so well! people are petrified of them, and for 45pts...they are fairly durable in cover. Best part is? they AREN'T a distraction carnifex because they are A: Too cheap and B: They punch WAY above their weight class if ignored.
I played a friendly game against a Thousand Sons player. 2 guns fired at his normal dudes, I killed 6! They made their points back and then some in 1 shooting phase.
Beardedragon wrote: Is there a reason you picked Warbosses over Beast bosses on squiggosaurs?
I put two of them in Trukkz to go with the Trukkboyz and get stuck in as quick as possible. They are also significantly cheaper and do about less but similar dmg for the most part. Another reason not to take Beastboss on Squigs is that they don't benefit my list except as beat sticks. On top of that, the warbosses move 12' turn 1, get out and move 5 so turn 2 they have crossed 20' of the board, the same as the squigz. I might switch out the Mega Warboss for the Beastboss on Squigosaur for added dmg potential, but I would have to scrounge out another 30pts from somewhere, and the only thing I can think to do would be to remove a unit :(
I also forgot to mention I had a weirdboy in there as well. He takes Fists and Da Jump.
I mean the mega warboss should do as much damage as the warboss on squig and doesn’t have any mobility issues with this list which tends to be his biggest problem…
Are you using BBK and killchoppa relic or krushing armor relic? I mean he might do slightly more damage w the killchoppa but he’s even more durable then the squigboss w krushing armor.
This list should benefit from the blood axe codex… it will be interesting to see what they get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Judging from other armies of renown, it is possible that the speed freeks do not get to chose their clan (locked into ES, for example). There will also be limits on what units you can take, traditionally the don't have walkers.
Poor walkers… so neglected… if the army of renown only prevents things like walkers that’s not really a detriment right now… although it might make warbikers popular again… which wouldn’t be a bad thing.
With the blood axe expansion, I’m eagerly awaiting what happens to our most blood axes boyz. Stormboyz and kommandos are already pretty great, I don’t know how they’re going to be made better.
My biggest wish would be getting something like brood brothers, take a detachment of guard to represent the merc work blood axes do, I know they had something like that in 2nd edition or somethin.
And they draw fire so well! people are petrified of them, and for 45pts...they are fairly durable in cover. Best part is? they AREN'T a distraction carnifex because they are A: Too cheap and B: They punch WAY above their weight class if ignored.
I played a friendly game against a Thousand Sons player. 2 guns fired at his normal dudes, I killed 6! They made their points back and then some in 1 shooting phase.
Exactly! That is exactly what I like on that.
Well, I' ve found what I don' t like on your list.
Despite 9000p of orks I don' t have enough models to play it.
…. Or well except some bikes still in the box etc. I propably have. But these re mostly the models painted few years ago like my first models in warhammer and does not look so sexy like my buggies and jets and my comeptitive play is very much driven by aesthetic
In such kind of lists I like the Wazbom and I often put him in strategic reserve if I face a lot of long range anti tank. It's quite good even on it's own and while it will cost you 2 CP it's reliable and has done some solid work for me in 9th edition.
About Mek Guns and their target priority: I guess many people have some PTSD from our 18 Mek Gunz lists in 8th edition.
I had a single Mek gun kill a swarmlord with full wounds turn 1 last wednesday .
It was amazingly hillarious
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh btw Semper. How do you deal properly with a very high toughness enemy army composition?
One running a lot of vehicles for instance. I dont see a lot of high damage units in the army.
Like, if they get turn 1 and go after your KMKs or Deffkoptas then you would only have your warbosses left.
Also how many Nobz do you use in each trukk? 10? For a total of 30 double choppa nobz?
I run TrukkBoyz not Trukk Nobz, so each trukk has 1 Nob in it with double choppa.
So Lets say i go second like I have in most of my games, he pops all my KMK mek gunz and somehow takes out all my koptas as well. Well here is the best part, lets assume a T8 2+ vehicle. A unit of Kommandos AVERAGES 2 Mortal wounds from the Squig, 5 dmg from the Kommandos and 2.2 from the Nob. So Just a unit of Kommandos average 9dmg to a T8 vehicle with a 2+ save, How about vs a T7 3+ vehicle? A Unit of Trukk boyz average 4ish dmg BUT they also can throw a Tankbusta bomb which does 2D3 mortals which basically doubles there dmg output
The list is sneaky in its ability to deal with vehicles and has a lot of options that are available to deal with a swath of targets. Kommandos are almost as good killing elite infantry and vehicles as they are against cheap throwaway infantry. Trukkboyz do work against light targets but can put out a rather astonishing amount of dmg vs tougher targets, and of course they don't mind getting bogged down in CC against those T8 vehicles because losing a 9pt model to a random las cannon isn't as bad as getting targeted by a hurricane of bolter shots
Obsec bikers sounds great, though if the army restriction is, "no infantry" then it's a non-starter, assuming they don't also backdoor a rule that lets bikes do actions as if they are infantry.
So far no indication speedfreak army of renown is klan locked just losing boys as choice. Doesn’t mean snagga or Gretchin are not usable either. I mean taking warbikers as troops actually opens up a lot more detachments for speedwaagh instead of the default patrol/outriders everyone is using.
I see they have more vehicle kustom jobs there as well. Hopefully we have some stuff that isn't as limiting as the ones we have in the core codex, it kinda stings still to have lost so many interesting upgrades in SoTB to the "meh" stuff we have now.
I’m not exactly hopeful on the kustom jobs and warlord traits…
I mean it’s hard to beat BBK for your main warlord trait.
Ard as nails and junk boss are strong too as your second one…
I mean it would be cool if a big Mek can call a speed Waagh as a warlord trait to open up that option but that’s doubtful.
Kustom jobs- maybe we get a shokk jump or scrapjet versions back… and maybe something for bikes or deffkoptas… really hoping walkers get love but doubtful as it’s not really speedfreaky.
Strats though can only go uphill from what we got… and a strat for kommandos? They are already good.
and new relics can be good too as there really isn’t much for vehicles in relics and outside the killaklaw, headchoppa for melee relics and krushing armor for mega armor… their isn’t a lot especially for bloodaxes… but again this could just be a single junk relic or 2 or ideally a I would have said the sniper in the kommando kit which doesn’t have rules in 40K but he’s not a character. So probably something like relic kff, relic shokk atk gun for a big Mek or something like that
The biggest boost so far is just taking warbikers as troops… that opens up a world for detachment choices that people previously just ignored because they wanted no troops outside patrol and outrider.
I had a single Mek gun kill a swarmlord with full wounds turn 1 last wednesday .
It was amazingly hillarious
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh btw Semper. How do you deal properly with a very high toughness enemy army composition?
One running a lot of vehicles for instance. I dont see a lot of high damage units in the army.
Like, if they get turn 1 and go after your KMKs or Deffkoptas then you would only have your warbosses left.
Also how many Nobz do you use in each trukk? 10? For a total of 30 double choppa nobz?
I run TrukkBoyz not Trukk Nobz, so each trukk has 1 Nob in it with double choppa.
So Lets say i go second like I have in most of my games, he pops all my KMK mek gunz and somehow takes out all my koptas as well. Well here is the best part, lets assume a T8 2+ vehicle. A unit of Kommandos AVERAGES 2 Mortal wounds from the Squig, 5 dmg from the Kommandos and 2.2 from the Nob. So Just a unit of Kommandos average 9dmg to a T8 vehicle with a 2+ save, How about vs a T7 3+ vehicle? A Unit of Trukk boyz average 4ish dmg BUT they also can throw a Tankbusta bomb which does 2D3 mortals which basically doubles there dmg output
The list is sneaky in its ability to deal with vehicles and has a lot of options that are available to deal with a swath of targets. Kommandos are almost as good killing elite infantry and vehicles as they are against cheap throwaway infantry. Trukkboyz do work against light targets but can put out a rather astonishing amount of dmg vs tougher targets, and of course they don't mind getting bogged down in CC against those T8 vehicles because losing a 9pt model to a random las cannon isn't as bad as getting targeted by a hurricane of bolter shots
You probably know this but didnt see you mention it in the kommando math, they can throw tankbusta bombs as well.
You probably know this but didnt see you mention it in the kommando math, they can throw tankbusta bombs as well.
You are correct! But in a battle with those two units stuck in, i'll likely use it on the Boyz because the Kommandos wound everything in the game on 4+ or better, where as the trukkboyz could theoretically be wounding on 6s.
Trukkboyz are only ever S4, Kommandos are S5 on the charge and have +1 to wound in CC when in cover...which is always so you can wound T9 on a 4+ with Kommandos, but with Trukkboyz it would be a 6+.
But in a situation where only the Kommandos are getting stuck in..yeah, absolutely throwing that Tankbusta bomb.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Should mention, I run my army as Goffs, which is where the S5 is coming from
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Kinda zogged that we’re just getting the wagon/fortress looted vehicles. With them being crusade they could have done actual looted rules.
Its possible those are the 3 profiles offered as a base but the wargear is rather varied and based on scrap used rather than powerlevel changes. I've tried my hand in the past (7th edition) to create a "Build a Tank Workshop" type thing and i ended up doing something along those lines...you pick a frame which gives you a statline and base cost and go from there. Otherwise its just too clunky/messy to allow full customization (and they are NOT going that far for orks lol)
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Kinda zogged that we’re just getting the wagon/fortress looted vehicles. With them being crusade they could have done actual looted rules.
Its possible those are the 3 profiles offered as a base but the wargear is rather varied and based on scrap used rather than powerlevel changes.
I've tried my hand in the past (7th edition) to create a "Build a Tank Workshop" type thing and i ended up doing something along those lines...you pick a frame which gives you a statline and base cost and go from there. Otherwise its just too clunky/messy to allow full customization (and they are NOT going that far for orks lol)
I was kind of hoping that since it was crusade they’d pull out all the stops and just use 3rd edition looting stuff. You just get someone else’s vehicle, set it to bs 2, and bob’s your uncle.
That would be somewhat problematic in 9th since theres a lot of rules you wouldnt get anymore, and also a handful that normally that unit wouldnt get.
More importantly, stratagem differences. Good deal of vehicles for other armies live or die by that 1 strat.
True I guess, those profiles for the looted vehicles are just going to be godawful though. Most likely just ripped straight from 8th.
Also, I feel like if you just have looted vehicles ramshackle they wouldn’t be half terrible, maybe just give the option to strap on more guns, or just discount the vehicle.
Then again, you might get Goff boyz zooming around in cheaper raiders.
I've been rejigging my list a bit. I've been trying to keep away from fully spamming any one thing, but still leaning into the big alpha strike.
Went from Outrider/Patrol/Patrol to double Outrider and dropped the Squigboss and Smasha Squigs to make room for more koptas and bikes. The list has ended up faster and feels like it's a bit more cohesive and efficient.
The squig characters were good, but I feel like once my opponents caught on to their offensive/defensive capabilities they started getting dealt with before they could have any real impact. I also give up less assassinate points. The extra koptas and bikes dish out a boatload of damage at range and tidy up in CC, which has evened out the gap caused by the loss of the squigs MW output. I still have squig bombs and tankbusta bomb strat for MWs if I need them though.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: True I guess, those profiles for the looted vehicles are just going to be godawful though. Most likely just ripped straight from 8th.
Also, I feel like if you just have looted vehicles ramshackle they wouldn’t be half terrible, maybe just give the option to strap on more guns, or just discount the vehicle.
Then again, you might get Goff boyz zooming around in cheaper raiders.
i actually like them being in crusade where you don't get the min max players in the mix(well not as many). I don't trust GW to make balanced rules so inside 20 min there will be math on which version is the best for the points and all other options would get itched to the wayside. I live the idea of looted wagons and most my trukks and battlewagons are counts as battlewagons and counts as trukks as they are looted vehicles from other factions, I don't think any 2 trukks or battlewagons should look alike.
Afrodactyl wrote: I've been rejigging my list a bit. I've been trying to keep away from fully spamming any one thing, but still leaning into the big alpha strike.
Went from Outrider/Patrol/Patrol to double Outrider and dropped the Squigboss and Smasha Squigs to make room for more koptas and bikes. The list has ended up faster and feels like it's a bit more cohesive and efficient.
The squig characters were good, but I feel like once my opponents caught on to their offensive/defensive capabilities they started getting dealt with before they could have any real impact. I also give up less assassinate points. The extra koptas and bikes dish out a boatload of damage at range and tidy up in CC, which has evened out the gap caused by the loss of the squigs MW output. I still have squig bombs and tankbusta bomb strat for MWs if I need them though.
Also posted in the Army List subforum if we want to avoid clutter here.
Your list is good. It looks fun and competitive. Although I think the campaign book will slightly alter competitive builds since they are throwing a bunch of rules into our best units/clans. So you might have to rejigger again soon.
Blood Axe stuff so far looks meh outside the Fight Detecta.
Seems kinda dumb, if not unexpected, that the speed freek detachment doesn't get kulturs (evil sunz? wut). A lot of their ruleset basically gives us Ravenwing-lite rules, which is good assuming we can give them the our buggies, since it gives some needed mobility for our shorter ranged weapons for scrapjets and an invuln not reliant on a KFF. Feel like it does less for warbikers though.
Blood Axes strats are kinda weird, not sure how its worth 2CP to basically become Goffs in combat but with the additional condition of having multiple Blood Axe units in a fight.
Blood Axe stuff so far looks meh outside the Fight Detecta.
Seems kinda dumb, if not unexpected, that the speed freek detachment doesn't get kulturs (evil sunz? wut). A lot of their ruleset basically gives us Ravenwing-lite rules, which is good assuming we can give them the our buggies, since it gives some needed mobility for our shorter ranged weapons for scrapjets and an invuln not reliant on a KFF. Feel like it does less for warbikers though.
Blood Axes strats are kinda weird, not sure how its worth 2CP to basically become Goffs in combat but with the additional condition of having multiple Blood Axe units in a fight.
Yeah so far the Blood Axe stuff is not exciting. Restrictive and expensive strats (2 CP and you don't count characters towards 2+ BA units). Blood Axes already are pretty underwhelming outside buggy spam so unless they get a lot more we haven't seen seems like a big miss.
I mean removing cover from a unit for 1cp for all blood axe units isn’t bad especially with kommandos able to get within 12in turn 1. That removes a decent amount of first turn protection a lot of armies use.
The fighta detector is tricky to use but can be pretty strong.
Speed freaks are decent since you can mix a clan with the speed freak clan. And since this allows your bikes to be objective secured so (75pts for a min squad of troops) you get extremely durable obj secured units that have 5+ invul and -1 to hit and 6tougness with multiple wounds. It still benefits from speedwaagh and no longer worries about firing while advancing penalty. The +1 to atk while useful on bikers i don’t feel thier melee is amazing.
But rerolling wound rolls of 1 (including shooting) on all atks is pretty great warlord trait. I mean a warboss buffing a unit of rukkatruk squigbuggies is pretty powerful.
Ultimately taking any of this stuff weakens the freebooter clan kultur so I think that will reduce the competitive reliance on that clan… still alot more to learn too but it’s promising.
Removing cover is alright if you're spamming BA buggies.
Agreed on the obsec bikes with 5++ though. My bikes have already served me well without obsec and they tend to get the least increase from my klan choices.
Dendarien wrote: Removing cover is alright if you're spamming BA buggies.
Agreed on the obsec bikes with 5++ though. My bikes have already served me well without obsec and they tend to get the least increase from my klan choices.
Why wouldn’t you spam BA buggies and a speedfreak detachment since the warlord gives all shooting within 6in reroll 1 to wound to any “speedfreak” keyword unit.. just put that trait on your big Mek w kff which is already in range and put him in a patrol w warbiker troops.
The speed freak detachment doesn’t remove klan like a specialist detachment it only removes the kultur!! This is what specialist mobs should have done… you do lose the blood axe kultur of being able to fallback and shoot if you place buggies in this detachment; which is a major reason to take bloodaxe buggies. I got to play with these new rules and see how to make this work. I might just make a detachment of klan bloodaxes and another detachment of speed freak and “klan something else” to give the warlord trait to someone and still allow my bloodaxe detachment with speedfreak keyword units to benefit from the speedfreak detachment strategems and warlord trait.
I’m sure the rules will prevent it but so far the preview doesn’t limit a speedfreak detachment from being a specialist mob…. So you lose the original klan keyword on that unit to become a specialist mob in a speedfreak detachment and get both abilities since niether are considered kulturs. I mean speed freak keyword specialist abilities are still pretty bad but it might make deffkopta boomboys or flyboys really good.
Dendarien wrote: Removing cover is alright if you're spamming BA buggies.
Agreed on the obsec bikes with 5++ though. My bikes have already served me well without obsec and they tend to get the least increase from my klan choices.
Why wouldn’t you spam BA buggies in a speedfreak detachment since the warlord gives all shooting within 6in reroll 1 to wound.. just put that trait on your big Mek w kff which is already in range…
The speed freak detachment doesn’t remove klan like a specialist detachment it only removes the kultur!! This is what specialist mobs should have done… you do lose the blood axe kultur of being able to fallback and shoot which is a major reason to take bloodaxe buggies though. I got to play with these new rules and see how to make this work. I might just make a detachment with of bloodaxes and another detachment of speed freak and “klan” to give the warlord trait to someone and still allow my bloodaxe detachment with speedfreak keyword units to benefit from the speedfreak detachment abilities.
I’m sure the rules will prevent it but so far the preview doesn’t limit a speedfreak detachment from being a specialist mob…. So you lose the original klan keyword become a specialist mob in speedfreak detachment and get both abilities since niether are considered kulturs. I mean speed freak keyword specialist abilities are still pretty bad but it might make deffkopta boomboys or flyboys good.
I am pretty sure that when we will get the wording, a speedfreaks unit will not be able to be a specialist mob. We may dream, but IMO it is highly unlikely.
Dendarien wrote: Removing cover is alright if you're spamming BA buggies.
Agreed on the obsec bikes with 5++ though. My bikes have already served me well without obsec and they tend to get the least increase from my klan choices.
Why wouldn’t you spam BA buggies in a speedfreak detachment since the warlord gives all shooting within 6in reroll 1 to wound.. just put that trait on your big Mek w kff which is already in range…
The speed freak detachment doesn’t remove klan like a specialist detachment it only removes the kultur!! This is what specialist mobs should have done… you do lose the blood axe kultur of being able to fallback and shoot which is a major reason to take bloodaxe buggies though. I got to play with these new rules and see how to make this work. I might just make a detachment with of bloodaxes and another detachment of speed freak and “klan” to give the warlord trait to someone and still allow my bloodaxe detachment with speedfreak keyword units to benefit from the speedfreak detachment abilities.
I’m sure the rules will prevent it but so far the preview doesn’t limit a speedfreak detachment from being a specialist mob…. So you lose the original klan keyword become a specialist mob in speedfreak detachment and get both abilities since niether are considered kulturs. I mean speed freak keyword specialist abilities are still pretty bad but it might make deffkopta boomboys or flyboys good.
I am pretty sure that when we will get the wording, a speedfreaks unit will not be able to be a specialist mob. We may dream, but IMO it is highly unlikely.
I’m sure as well and if it doesn’t that faq will likely fix it… although it really only helps deffkoptas as madboy bikers are still pretty useless and pyrobuggies is such a minimal increase.
If we still get kulture bonuses alongside Speed Freak bonuses, then my Deathskulls Kommandos and Stormboys will love the bikes backing them suddenly being ObSec as well.
However the rest of the Speed Mob stuff is either going to have a caveat that it only effects Warbikers/Deffkoptas, or they will nerf the buggies into the ground because they've suddenly made a build people are complaining about even better.
So the blood axe strats seem a bit terrible. The only use I can see for the fight detecta is maybe protecting your Warboss or something.
Here’s hoping the other relics, potentially other strats, and warlord traits are better.
Eh, you're trading offense for defense and speed, more or less, so it would actually be less likely for a buggy gun-line to crush you in one turn as Adrenaline Junkies. You loose either the +1 to hit for FB or the ability to drop out of combat and shoot from BA, and gain a 5++ and +3.5" movement (since you'll always advance). Not a bad trade, but your max lethality does drop.
If we can stack Junkies and specialist mobs (and foot sloggers), though, Trukkboyz might be fun. You basically get a "not-Goff" with a free invul that can hurtle across the board. The bonus attack on the charge makes up for the exploding hits and +1S, and could even be better in cases where the +1S doesn't matter (fighting chaff or on MANz).
Trimarius wrote: Eh, you're trading offense for defense and speed, more or less, so it would actually be less likely for a buggy gun-line to crush you in one turn as Adrenaline Junkies. You loose either the +1 to hit for FB or the ability to drop out of combat and shoot from BA, and gain a 5++ and +3.5" movement (since you'll always advance). Not a bad trade, but your max lethality does drop.
If we can stack Junkies and specialist mobs (and foot sloggers), though, Trukkboyz might be fun. You basically get a "not-Goff" with a free invul that can hurtle across the board. The bonus attack on the charge makes up for the exploding hits and +1S, and could even be better in cases where the +1S doesn't matter (fighting chaff or on MANz).
Speed King gives you a reroll ones to wound aura, which probably levels out the lethality.
Fight Detecta is kinda pointless
Its a relatively small area, eats a relic, and vast majority of deepstrikes DONT want to be within 12" unless they are melee badasses and would not care if you charged them first all that much.
Afrodactyl wrote: If we still get kulture bonuses alongside Speed Freak bonuses, then my Deathskulls Kommandos and Stormboys will love the bikes backing them suddenly being ObSec as well.
However the rest of the Speed Mob stuff is either going to have a caveat that it only effects Warbikers/Deffkoptas, or they will nerf the buggies into the ground because they've suddenly made a build people are complaining about even better.
Klan kulturs don’t stack w speedfreak detachment bonus. We don’t know if a specialist mob can be in a speed freak detachment.
Fight detecta might help discourage someone dropping in a unit near you to shoot your army, since you charge in before they shoot and tie them up. That plus adding 2 to your charge means depending on where it happens youve got good odds of shutting down a deepstriking or outflanking unit before it even gets to shoot. I think though if its doing its job itll almost never trigger, as its main job would be to protect something like kannonwagons from an enemy unit dropping in and nuking them. So odds are the opponent just drops somewhere else you dont care about and it never procs. Also with your countercharge needing to be core that really limits what you can combo it with.
Problem for me is the relic slot. I already feel like those are at a premium with blood axes, and this is so situational that I dont see it beating out the finkin cap, killa klaw, or other combat relics. It also has the potential for some really weird rules interactions, although I dont think thats going to be super often.
Its definitely nowhere near as good as the spotting strat for one CP. Thats a big help for a blood axe gunline and can have some really powerful uses since youre running kommandos anyways. I can already think of a couple if games where I wouldve used that to good effect. The surrounded one on the other hand doesnt seem super handy. I guess it can come up but I cant think of many instances where it wouldve helped me much.
Afrodactyl wrote: If we still get kulture bonuses alongside Speed Freak bonuses, then my Deathskulls Kommandos and Stormboys will love the bikes backing them suddenly being ObSec as well.
However the rest of the Speed Mob stuff is either going to have a caveat that it only effects Warbikers/Deffkoptas, or they will nerf the buggies into the ground because they've suddenly made a build people are complaining about even better.
Klan kulturs don’t stack w speedfreak detachment bonus. We don’t know if a specialist mob can be in a speed freak detachment.
I may have to swap detachments for my deffkoptas and bikers then. Time will tell.
Speed King is going to be a big deal though. A Speed King wartrike sat in the backfield with 9 squigbuggies could be problematic for us going forward.
Biggest wishlist would be like, a relic that makes an aura that makes the cover thing for blood axes 9”, or a 1cp strat that just lets you pop cover on a blood axe unit.
Afrodactyl wrote: If we still get kulture bonuses alongside Speed Freak bonuses, then my Deathskulls Kommandos and Stormboys will love the bikes backing them suddenly being ObSec as well.
However the rest of the Speed Mob stuff is either going to have a caveat that it only effects Warbikers/Deffkoptas, or they will nerf the buggies into the ground because they've suddenly made a build people are complaining about even better.
Klan kulturs don’t stack w speedfreak detachment bonus. We don’t know if a specialist mob can be in a speed freak detachment.
I may have to swap detachments for my deffkoptas and bikers then. Time will tell.
Speed King is going to be a big deal though. A Speed King wartrike sat in the backfield with 9 squigbuggies could be problematic for us going forward.
I agree and the way speed king works I don’t need my buggies to be in the speedfreak detachment they just need the speedfreak keyword. So I can still get klan buffs and the speedking buff and likely a lot of these speedfreak Strats will work on speed freak units. I am not sure that’s what GW intended but they should have named the detachment differently then the speedfreak keyword.
Technically the way the community article is written you can still take a freebooter speed freak detachment and all the buggies/warbikes will not benefit from freebooter +1 to hit but can like Mek guns trigger the bonus for other units since they are still freebooter klan. I just don’t think there is a major benefit outside of dakkajets to do this…. If you do take a min patrol of hq and warbiker troops speedfreak detachment with maybe Mek guns and dakkajets and keep it klan freebooter. You can still keep the freebooter max potential except for warbikers won’t benefit from +1 to hit. But you can’t take any other speed freak keyword unit without losing its klan kultur for speedfreak detachment bonus. I’m not exactly sure this knocks freebooter down as the main competitive option as that really depends on the rest of the bloodaxe codex options. Spotted them so far is the only decent option shown but there should be a bunch more Strats and traits to go check out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: “ represent the Straight Shoota, a new Blood Axes Relic from War Zone Octarius Book 2: Critical Mass.”
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find it odd we get another kustom shoota relic which only like 3 characters can take warboss on foot, big Mek in mega armor and nob w waaagh banner
Might be a sniper type gun, given the scope he has modeled, similar to the alpha legion sniper combi bolter. Not sure how useful it would actually be unless it gets really good ap or damage 2
Afrodactyl wrote: If we still get kulture bonuses alongside Speed Freak bonuses, then my Deathskulls Kommandos and Stormboys will love the bikes backing them suddenly being ObSec as well.
However the rest of the Speed Mob stuff is either going to have a caveat that it only effects Warbikers/Deffkoptas, or they will nerf the buggies into the ground because they've suddenly made a build people are complaining about even better.
Klan kulturs don’t stack w speedfreak detachment bonus. We don’t know if a specialist mob can be in a speed freak detachment.
I may have to swap detachments for my deffkoptas and bikers then. Time will tell.
Speed King is going to be a big deal though. A Speed King wartrike sat in the backfield with 9 squigbuggies could be problematic for us going forward.
Had to recheck, yeah it's both ranged and melee. Damn that has a lot of potential for silly nonense. Even just 27 bikes in dakka range would get some solid milage out of it first turn.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Might be a sniper type gun, given the scope he has modeled, similar to the alpha legion sniper combi bolter. Not sure how useful it would actually be unless it gets really good ap or damage 2
It sounds like a more accurate gun maybe a pip more range.
If this is reroll to hit Dakka gun with a decent amount of shots then it’s decent and might beat out da shiny shoota for bloodaxe detachment. If it’s another +1 to hit… me and Gw are about to have words :p
"Got'em Trapped" 2CP to make 2+ units targeting a specific unit act as Goffs....I would rather just take goffs and save the CP. To say this is worthless would be an understatement.
"Spotted em" 1CP to ignore cover on 1 enemy unit that is within 12 of a kommando unit...I mean, not bad, but not all that great either. its meh at best.
"Fight Detecta" useless. Incredibly limiting, requires you to keep Core units near this specific bearer and pray the enemy comes within 12 of them...just absolutely useless. Why would you ever take this?
Here is the bright spot (Sarcastic). Sadly I say bright spot but for me this is beyond idiotic, we have now ventured into the "Orkz are broken" realm. With that said we still don't know the limitations but my brain has already figured out a dozen ways to make orkz broken with the new Speed Freakz Rule. I'll go over a few for fun
"Adrenaline Junkies" Pretty sure this is going to function as a specialist mob. They lose their kulture as we guessed, but can be included without stripping other units kultures. They get +1 attack on the charge, they can advance and shoot as normal, if they advance they get a 5+ Invuln save (Why wouldn't you advance?) With the wording of the unit itself, you can theoretically include this unit in a REGULAR Waaaagh! which means you can get a unit to Move, Advance, Shoot, and charge, AND they would get +2 attacks on that turn with a 5+ invuln in combat. A Massive unit of Warbikers just became Objective Secured AND borderline OP. 25pt model with 20 +2D6 movement, -1 to hit, T5 3 wounds, 4+ armor and a 5+ invuln with 5 attacks each in CC at S4 -1AP.
Next, Speed King. Give this to some rear echelon character and put him near your Squigbuggy artillery park, or hell, any buggies, you just dramatically increased their firepower congrats easy day.
A Squigbuggy goes from averaging 3.1 wounds to a T4 model to 3.6 with its launchas. Or basically a 16-17% increase in lethality. All for the low low cost of losing a fighty or tough warlord trait for your Speedboss. Put him near a couple units of speedfreakz to really watch the stupidity increase. If you can team this with Freeboota kulture....its GG for my Alphork strike, hell, its GG for the game, orkz are now the shootiest army in the game and unarguably broken. Giving them a 16-17% lethality increase to a 12' diameter bubble of the table for basically no cost is going to break them and I'll be honest, i'll have to join in on the calls to nerf Freeboota kulture.
I’m kinda hoping bloodaxe has a bunch more decent Strats, relics, warlord traits
As I agree with you if a speedfreak freebooter army is able to stack these buffs without losing to much (since any speed freak units in a speedfreak detachment will lose freebooter kultur +1 to hit) this will push that list into broken territory.
However if bloodaxe is strong enough I think we will see a lot more bloodaxe/speedfreak dual detachment lists. This will lower the first turn speedwaagh advantage orks have and most are outraged about but still be extremely durable competitive army.. either way I still expect some major point hikes on buggies, dakkajets, killrigs and unfortunately kommandos and warbikers in the future with this campaign book buff rules bloat. Either way we only know partial campaign book info and some of these rules may not have been correct in the community article… such as speedfreak detachment keeping klan keyword.
oh dear god youre right its just attacks....
Thats gonna get nerfed stupid fast. No way they allow us to buff 9+ buggies with reroll 1s to wound, yeesh
1. Speed mob is a Specialists like Trukkboys. So one unite per detach for free. This is my guess.
2. Don' t expect any “balancing”. Book comming out in few weeks had a deadline for the rules in summer imho. Othervise they had no chance to print it, pack it and dont even speek about graphic layout, grammar check.. oh yes and multi-level-corporate-approvement proces. Maybeee end Sept, few weeks after snaga box “releasing” of the codex. No later. So the idea “lets make a Speedfreak spec mob to boost buggies” comes out int the rule developement team no later than last christmas, during planning the whole new codex. Concept of this two books had to be written in the same time.
3. So expect the crazy combos for buggies and than FAQ /Errata for both Codex and this book comming out shortly before christmas. Or maybe after to pimp up the sales little bit. Oh no! Better idea! FAQ / Errata for both books comes out 1 week after comming to the market, so the book you buy will be already FAQed.
4. Honestly, I' m really surprised there are new rules for orks so fast after new codex. Most of the people haven' t even finished the squigbuggies. Not mention the Killrigs.I ' ve expect such a book next Autumn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: oh dear god youre right its just attacks....
Thats gonna get nerfed stupid fast. No way they allow us to buff 9+ buggies with reroll 1s to wound, yeesh
1 week after comming to the market, or mid January when people comes from the Christmas holidays - my guess
It is just so sad that the build no one really wants to play is the one which will benefit most from this supplement.
Walkers, green horde, sguig riders and beastsnaggaz, lootas and tankbustas, the list goes on... But no, they had to buff speed freak units...
GW never ceases to disapoint.
BTW why is everyone "calling" (or predicting) for a nerf on killrigs ? Absolutely 0 Killrigs have been seen in tournament results, to my knowledge.
They prevent us from using the "while we stand" secondary, they have a huge footprint, they are not very tanky, and they don't do much against tough units. I get it that on paper they look "too good" for 190, but surely the comp community thinks further beyond that, no ?
BTW why is everyone "calling" (or predicting) for a nerf on killrigs ? Absolutely 0 Killrigs have been seen in tournament results, to my knowledge.
They prevent us from using the "while we stand" secondary, they have a huge footprint, they are not very tanky, and they don't do much against tough units. I get it that on paper they look "too good" for 190, but surely the comp community thinks further beyond that, no ?
For several months they didn't have an official model's release, maybe that's why we haven't seen them so far.
I agree that people are overreacting towards them though, they have great offensive abilities but they're still tanks that make Assassinate pretty much scary. I prefer a 170 points Forktress Battlewagon to be honest for a plethora of reasons, even if on paper the Killrig is hands down a better unit.
addnid wrote: It is just so sad that the build no one really wants to play is the one which will benefit most from this supplement.
Walkers, green horde, sguig riders and beastsnaggaz, lootas and tankbustas, the list goes on... But no, they had to buff speed freak units...
GW never ceases to disapoint.
BTW why is everyone "calling" (or predicting) for a nerf on killrigs ? Absolutely 0 Killrigs have been seen in tournament results, to my knowledge.
They prevent us from using the "while we stand" secondary, they have a huge footprint, they are not very tanky, and they don't do much against tough units. I get it that on paper they look "too good" for 190, but surely the comp community thinks further beyond that, no ?
Because it's pretty fast, pretty durable, has lots of attacks ranging from decent in quality to good, has good psychic powers (the best of which is boosted by its large footprint), and has between 1 and 3 auto hitting lascannons.
When/if buggies and jets are hit with the nerf stick, Killrigs will likely step up to the plate as our heavy lifter.
Blackie, I completely agree with you, but the 170 forktress battlewagon I dunno... Perhaps with the right stuff in it. What infantry does yours carry ?
Afrodactyl perhaps you are right but I think they mess too much with secondaries, and they don't have a good enough invul to withstand melta, dark lances and espcially las chickens. But we will see.
5 meganobz + either 10 boyz/10 gretchins/5 burnaboyz. I don't have any snagga models and they provide a nice back up for the 2 trukk boyz squads and the freeboota shooting stuff. Nothing really OP but I don't play against tournament lists either.
The BW is good/expensive enough to draw away some enemy firepower but I can accept losing it while a ride for my heavy hitters is also welcome. I don't like putting meganobz in trukks as I can't let them join by cheap models to soak up the bad explosion rolls if the vehicle gets wrecked.
I get that probably 3x3 goffs squig riders + squigboss would be a better escort for my freebooters shooting stuff, but I don't have them.
Killing the killrig, which doesn't even had the 5++ of a Forktress, means the opponent scores points by secondaries and 10 snagga models don't really do anything if the vehicle gets wrecked early, they're there only to mess with obj sec once deployed, just like boyz, so killrig's transport capacity isn't really useful.
I see it's a good unit overall, but it needs a list based around it. Never take just one, for starters, or if you take only one reduce the characters to the very necessary minimum. A BW can easily join any vehicles based army without many tweaks instead.
In a hyper competitive list the Killrig has its drawbacks mainly assassinate secondary points.
However in beer and pretzel casual play it’s a complete monster for most people to deal with especially in multiples. If/when buggies get a point boost and if Killrigs don’t the killrig aggressive cost will be shown as killrigs become more common in tournaments. But at the current price of buggies ya it’s better to take 2x buggies then 1x Killrig. The Killrig has more damage potential then a gun/kannon wagon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also for people saying speed freak detachment is going to be like a specialist mob. That is wrong
This is an army of renown.
It’s an entire detachment bonus
Not a single unit klan exchange
In other words every unit in this army of renown is the same klan unlike specialist mobs.
However speedfreak units in this detachment loss thier kultur for a new ability.
How that stacks with specialist mobs
I dunno as neither specialist or army of renown abilities are considered a kultur.
Technically they should stack however community articles don’t usually give all the rules or are not always accurate
It does have a lot of potential for a 190 points model but at the end of the day it's still a battlewagon with no invuln. Anyone can kill it easily, even a pair. 2x3 eradicators alone, or any other pair of average dedicated anti tank units, can kill a pair of killrigs.
Gun/kannon wagon can sit in a corner and avoid attention, killrig must be played aggressively, like a battlewagon.
They might be problematic only in overly competitive lists with lots of other priorities. With 3 dakkajets and a wazbom for example the opponent would be torn, as taking down the flyers would be priority number one but ignoring two killrigs (and failing to remove all the flyers) could be catastrophic. Those 4 flyers and 2 killrigs are less than 1000 points.
But this is not what people expect to face outside very competitive metas, and I don't think killrigs will break the casual scene.
I mean it does have a 6++ invul
And 3+ save, and toughness 8 and ramshackle and 16w with 12in movement
And +1 to any hit vs monster veh
And reroll to hit shooting vs monster veh
Or auto hitting main wpn
And decent psychic powers
Plus 14x melee atks All of which hits hard
True, Gungo, I forgot about the snagga bonus. Still it's easier to kill than a Forktress (exact same stats but with a 5++), which is also 20ppm cheaper. I don't think there are many players that argue that such Forktress is really hard to remove, so why should a killrig be considerable a durable model?
It definitely has a lot of offensive abilities that suits a much more expensive model than a 190 points one, but they don't really matter if up to two models per turn can be shot off the board quite reliably.
Unless as I said earlier the ork list spams multiple armored high priority models. In that case even if two killrigs are removed turn 1 without doing anything they'd have provided a good distraction for the flyers to terrorize the board.
I mean in comparison to our codex the forktress is one of our most durable models (and it requires a 20pt kustom job for that and 15pt ard case upgrade) and the Killrig is still right there with it. (1 less invul)
120+15+20 and I’m assuming your including the 15pt deffrolla so it’s more then just an expensive transport. Again I’m not saying it’s squigbuggy levels of soon to be broken, but it’s almost a forktress with way more offensive potential then a gun/kannon wagon. I think it will likely be more popular once competitively certain buggies go up in price.
i think its more the comparison between wagons and the killrig that make people call nerf on killrig Theres no contest between the two. Sure the wagon's base cost is way lower....it also has 0 weapons innately. Once you put weapons on it its barely cheaper and noticeably not as deadly as a killrig. I dont think the killrig itself is broken.
Right now, the only reason i'd use a wagon is a Kannonwagon (a role that the gunwagon attempts to do but fails at) or if i for some reason need more than 12 transport capacity...which since i dont run more than 10 boyz in a squad now...not likely
The 6++ for the killrig is really not going to save it hah hah, not in the cuthroat meta I play in. But I get that in a less comp setting people might get afraid of it.
Anyway I will be trying lists with 2 kill rigs in them for the foreseeable future, theoryhammer won't cut it for that unit (spent perhaps 24 hours assembling and painting all in all i think, GW better not nerf it in a few weeks or I will lose my sheeiiiit). Perhaps the pair of them can draw enough enemy shots to make them worth it.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think its more the comparison between wagons and the killrig that make people call nerf on killrig
Theres no contest between the two. Sure the wagon's base cost is way lower....it also has 0 weapons innately. Once you put weapons on it its barely cheaper and noticeably not as deadly as a killrig.
I dont think the killrig itself is broken.
Right now, the only reason i'd use a wagon is a Kannonwagon (a role that the gunwagon attempts to do but fails at) or if i for some reason need more than 12 transport capacity...which since i dont run more than 10 boyz in a squad now...not likely
20 transport is fine for tricks like 10 grots for causalities and 10 slots for 5 meganobz or something like that….
I’ve played 2 kill rigs in a freebooterz list with the usual suspects.
They’re hard to kill but not that hard. Their damage output is also just kind of ok in my opinion. Real value is just helping to proc the freebooterz trait. Would like to try a melee rush build with them sometime maybe as goffs.
Interesting they did start breaking the Strats up into speed freak and speed mob. Not sure the speed mob Strats or kustom jobs still warrant putting your buggies in a speed mob detachment. There is a couple nice ones in there but nothing I see game breaking. It seems to encourage large warbiker mobs for these Strats again not sure that’s a good idea. Overall I give it an egh
Blitza Dakka is ok but then those units need to be in the speedmob
Charrge is ok but 2cp is a lot so you need a large biker mob to warrant its use.
It mentions that Freebooterz is keyed off the Kulture not the Keyword, which isn't the case, but otherwise it's a good overview.
Hopefully the Kulture/keyword thing doesn't become something read and accepted as gospel, which has happened before, for Grot units more than the speed mob. Competitive Streak is weird in that it's obscenely good if speed mob units can trigger it, but horrendously bad if they can't.
Wow full cp refund on outrider detachment that’s speed mob. Limited to buggies bikes wagons and aircraft only.
… I mean the mistake by goonhammer regarding freebooter klan vs kultur keyword is pretty big mistake.
The bloodaxe/deathskull or goff lists are stronger too especially for those triple patrol speedrush trukkboy lists.
I mean the only big negative now to this speed Waagh is it can’t do actions and it has a hard time with fall back and shoot still.
Also nothing in the speedwaagh review saying you can’t double up on specialist and speedmob rules still as neither are considered kulturs. So boomboys specialist deffkoptas seem legit.
Edit: ok it comes to my attention speedmob army of renown is for the entire army NOT just a detachment in which case the army of renown is still good for a warbiker spam buggy list However much less overpowered and much more restrictive if you can’t take anything else in your entire army. It still might be competitive just not freebooter spam overpowered.
As i understand it your entire army is subject to only wagons, planes, bikes and buggies, not just the detatchment you run a speed mob.
Maybe im wrong though.
If its only the detatchment that has to be planes, wagons, bikes and buggies and the rest of your detatchments can be what ever, i fail to see why i wouldnt run Ghaz for advance and charge and shoot with warbikers for 5 attacks in CC.
Armies of Renown always restricts your whole force, so every detachment is Speed Freek.
Which kinda makes this impossible for me to try out in a serious environment. I’ve got around 1000 points of qualifying units, and I sure as hell won’t start the spammer’s road just for this. I don’t like how these things work, they are always way too random with where the restrictions land on. I could use it in Crusade however, as I like the looted vehicles part.
[edit: I wish they had included transports or at least Trukkboyz. I don’t see why they wouldn’t fit in and they’d miss most of the new buffs anyway.]
AarresaariAarre wrote: Armies of Renown always restricts your whole force, so every detachment is Speed Freek.
Which kinda makes this impossible for me to try out in a serious environment. I’ve got around 1000 points of qualifying units, and I sure as hell won’t start the spammer’s road just for this. I don’t like how these things work, they are always way too random with where the restrictions land on. I could use it in Crusade however, as I like the looted vehicles part.
[edit: I wish they had included transports or at least Trukkboyz. I don’t see why they wouldn’t fit in and they’d miss most of the new buffs anyway.]
Every detachement? Well, it seems time of the Warbikers and Deffkopta arrived. Because these benefits the most. Wruum wruuum
Ok if it’s the entire army not detachment based ya it’s a lot more restrictive.. and freebooters won’t really be great as the only units that benefit from trigger is the aircraft and wagons.
Tomsug wrote: What I see as a question is, how to win with Speed Mob?
To win, you need to score and prevent from scoring.
With available secondaries, there seems to be no interesting way how to score. The situation is worse than ever.
So the only chance is to smash opponent from the table.
But Adrenalin Junkies - is it more lethal than freebootas? …..
Freebootas makes no sence in Speedmob. They works just with all-in strategy.
I' m trying to find some synergy with another clans…
You only really miss out on Raise Banners and Octarius Data, so there's plenty of options for secondaries.
But overall, Speed Mobs will rely on smashing their opponent to bits early and then mopping up secondaries when they can't do anything to really stop you.
Army of renown and BA supplement look like big misses for competitive play.
Army of renown is way too restrictive while not doing anything better than FB already is for buggies.
Blood axes just meh. There’s some ok, and I mean just OK, tricks in their but really BA are pretty weak for infantry build in comparison to goffs or DS. Fight detecta is a cool trick but you’ll only get people with it so many times.
I mean being limited to
Warboss on bike/wartrike
Bikes and deffkoptas
Buggies and wagons
Aircraft
In your entire army is a pretty big restriction..
This physically limits you to only taking outriders since you can never take a bigger detachment with the warboss restriction and can’t take troops so you can only take outrider.
In a 2k list you pretty much have to take as the only real list.
Detachment 1- freebooter
a warboss on bike- killaklaw and BBK
3 units of 5x Warbikers
5x deffkoptas (boomboys specialist)
1 squigbuggy w nitro squig
1 squigbuggy
1x Dakkajets (aircraft are unit that benefits from freebooter)
Detachment 2-freebooter
Wartrike- speedking (warlord) (freebooter banner if you want)
Wazbom (only other unit benefiting from freebooter trigger plus the reroll 1 strat)
8 command points left over unless you take freebooter banner for 7
I mean with warlord restrictions and rule of 3 and no infantry to transport and unit size limitations… the only real choice is which klan to take since most units in this list don’t benefit from the kultures anyway except aircraft and wagons… the only klan worth taking is freebooter for the aircraft and if you want a gunwagon
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Dendarien wrote: Army of renown and BA supplement look like big misses for competitive play.
Army of renown is way too restrictive while not doing anything better than FB already is for buggies.
Blood axes just meh. There’s some ok, and I mean just OK, tricks in their but really BA are pretty weak for infantry build in comparison to goffs or DS. Fight detecta is a cool trick but you’ll only get people with it so many times.
I mean bloodaxes codex is just extra choices it doesn’t make that list worse only better.. it’s minor increases but it’s still okay but i agree freebooter normal is still strong
But an army of renown isn’t bad with my above list you get 7 buggies and wartrike, 9 deffkopta boomboys/speedmob, 16 bikers and 2 aircraft…. The biggest Loss from other competitive lists is no more big Mek kff but a lot already has an invul in this list and/or get benefit from cloud of smoke strat
Definitely not Freebootas for planes and Kannonwagon.
Kannonwagon has +1 to hit by default, so it mostly cannot benefit from FB kulture at all (except big shootas…) And you have not enough FB kulture model to really benefit.
Maybe skip that at all, take some mek gunz and take more deffkoptas.
Tomsug wrote: Definitely not Freebootas for planes and Kannonwagon.
Kannonwagon has +1 to hit by default, so it mostly cannot benefit from FB kulture at all (except big shootas…) And you have not enough FB kulture model to really benefit.
Maybe skip that at all, take some mek gunz and take more deffkoptas.
I mean the freebooter ability literally only says a freebooter unit can trigger this which is why Mek guns are used…
If your entire army is freebooters but don’t benefit from the kultur the Dakkajet and wazbom will likely be getting +1 to hit from the rest of the army…
I only mentioned kannonwagons because there is literally no reason to take any other wagon. I won’t use a kannon wagon in this list.
“… you could just decide you still want a wing of Freebooterz planes soaring overhead (though the first one will need to land a kill unbuffed to switch things on, as the bonus only kicks off from units that have the Kultur, not the Keyword)”
Ya they are wrong… it happens they mess up a lot.
I mean in 8th Ed codex it did say kultur not klan
But 9th edition Gw changed it to klan trigger And kultur benefit
Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.
Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.
But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.
Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.
Grotrebel wrote: Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.
Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.
But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.
Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.
I mean the socal open won using 9 buggies, warbikes, 4 aircraft and a bigmek with 3 Mek guns… it’s essentially the same list minus big Mek and mekguns… the bigmek was just a throwaway kff which this army already gets more 5++ invul the entire game. Plus the warbikers gain alot more and deffkoptas seem to be better then mekguns now as well. The fact all the warbikes are obj secured just made that list stronger imho
“… you could just decide you still want a wing of Freebooterz planes soaring overhead (though the first one will need to land a kill unbuffed to switch things on, as the bonus only kicks off from units that have the Kultur, not the Keyword)”
They are wrong. You can still have the other units proc the FB buff. It’s the same logic as mek gunz proccing the buff.
I know Speed King looks great as the second HQ's trait for the current way of playing buggy spam, but am I the only one taking a second look at Fasta Than Yooz? This entire army will be perpetually advancing except the turns when we want to assault, having the wartrike going around giving advance+charge for our now obsec warbikers seems like a great bonus, plus fallback and charge to make multi-turn combats efficient.
Haven't played since 8th, haven't really kept up to speed with how the game has changed. But major changes seem to be; Everything got more bulky. More wounds, better saves. Game board got smaller.
I am ideally looking to build a mech list, with flash gitz. Battlewagon is their best transport option? As it's cheap. Vs loading a large amount of my points into 2 units.
Even though freebootas or bad moonz seem like the obvious choice, would death skullz work well for a mech list? Basically I'd have objsec on troops, but a FNP on all MWs even for the vehicles? So my flash gitz would be objsec, and then a few units of kommados for securing other objectives?
Dreds seem to outclass kanz, due to LD issues and lack of kultur on the kanz. Burna Boyz seem pretty nasty now (finally).
A KFF seems decent for the burn on turn 1. Would running without a waagh badly hinder a mech list?
Looking forward to looting the corpses of my enemies for all dem shiney reef!
gungo wrote: Crashing through strat on deffkoptas are amazing it’s a speedfreak vehicle so a squad of 5 gives 5x d3 mortal wounds on charge for 1cp
Yeah, koptas rock like a hell. With Attack Out O’ Da Sun too.
It’s a good fire and fade strat but 2cp is a lot.. it’s amazing though if you want to remove your deffkoptas from combat after you use crashing through strat, use all your atks from charge and then leave the board.
I mean deffkoptas are more durable now w speedmob.
Although I rather use my command points for crashing through, blitza Dakka, ramming speed, cloud of smoke and gitz over here (to save a unit that’s locked in combat).
But yes it’s a great thing to have in your pocket when those 5 Dakkajets are in a bad spot. Even as speedmob boomboys they are a fragile glass cannon unit.
Haven't played since 8th, haven't really kept up to speed with how the game has changed. But major changes seem to be; Everything got more bulky. More wounds, better saves. Game board got smaller.
I am ideally looking to build a mech list, with flash gitz. Battlewagon is their best transport option? As it's cheap. Vs loading a large amount of my points into 2 units.
Even though freebootas or bad moonz seem like the obvious choice, would death skullz work well for a mech list? Basically I'd have objsec on troops, but a FNP on all MWs even for the vehicles? So my flash gitz would be objsec, and then a few units of kommados for securing other objectives?
Dreds seem to outclass kanz, due to LD issues and lack of kultur on the kanz. Burna Boyz seem pretty nasty now (finally).
A KFF seems decent for the burn on turn 1. Would running without a waagh badly hinder a mech list?
Looking forward to looting the corpses of my enemies for all dem shiney reef!
Welcome back to the Waaagh.
Mech lists are primarily buggy heavy at the moment, with Trukkboys if you fancy it. If you wanted mechanised with Flash Gits, I personally would go Freebootaz, Bad Moons or Deathskulls, in that order. I would also go with them in trukks alongside buggies, kind of as another buggy. Flash Gits could also be alright in a Squiggoth howdah.
I don't have a lot of experience with Flash Gits or Squiggoths though, so take my input with a pinch of salt.
I believe there is a list out there for the Speed Freaks army. Since I hate the FB list and I´m doing fairly good with my triple squigboss treath, Board control and half MSU is always a good thing and there are nice combo to take advantage of:
ES Outrider
Deffkilla watrike Warlord and Relic (Fasta than Youz + Redder paint+ MW on CC Kustom Job)
9x Warbikers +PK 9x Warbikers +PK 5x Warbikers +PK 1 Nitro Squig RTS 1 RTS 1 RTS 1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota
ES Outrider
Warboss on warbike +Relic Klaw and Killy but Brutal
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ with Chains (MW on fall back)
3x Deffkoptas
3x Deffkoptas
1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota
-------------
The deffkilla is in for abusing adv+charge bikes T1 and 2 when he should be up there, giving fight last, in order to nuke mid,easy targets.
The Warbikers is killing caracthers or veichles. (1 warbiker boss = 1 dead Dreadknight :( )
The warbikers on Speedwaahg turn shoots 108 shots AND have AP1 AND move 20" and shoots AND for 1 Cp rerolls 1 to hit AND get +1A on charge AND they are obsec AND they have 5++ AND can get +1AP and 1S for 2CP... just dont charge stuff that spam D3 and you are good to go.
The squigs are backfield or frontrow to screen (Yep. often those 2d6 mortar shots wont do much)
The MTSJ are there to do their job + use Crashing Trhu, if possible with warbikers.
Deffkoptas can use the new strat and move 20" and shoot their rockets.
Planes might get nerfed to 1 per detachment so they are there for thatand use the reroll 1 to hit strat to snipe char or clean chaff.
You get 7+5 CP to spam reroll to hits, autopass +warboss morale strat and crashing trhu + Chaaarge.
I think it has legs and might really counter 120 skitarii and drukhari. You can also effectvively cover an entire obj only by sheer base size.
Forgot a MANDATORY -1 to hit from the deffkoptas in the back that basically cover the whole army. So you start with 5, if you go second
ive been running a squad of 9 warbikers in a badmoonz list and i gotta tell ya during a SpeedWaagh they can lay on the hurt. Dakkaguns being 24" in Badmoonz is super useful, they can actually reach something theyre not about to charge. Also, Badmoonz' strat is Core locked and not Infantry Core locked so thats 90 (108 during T1 Waagh!) S5 Ap1 shots with exploding 6s at 12" (24" if you wanna burn more cp for More Dakka). Except for crap they shouldnt be shooting anyway theyve been deleting anything they hit lol. Obviously it wont do jack to a heavy vehicle.
Mech lists are primarily buggy heavy at the moment, with Trukkboys if you fancy it. If you wanted mechanised with Flash Gits, I personally would go Freebootaz, Bad Moons or Deathskulls, in that order. I would also go with them in trukks alongside buggies, kind of as another buggy. Flash Gits could also be alright in a Squiggoth howdah.
I don't have a lot of experience with Flash Gits or Squiggoths though, so take my input with a pinch of salt.
Thanks for the input! I don't have any buggies, but I'm sure there's plenty of bits lying around to make a few ramshackle buggies! Plus... You know... Reason to buy more shame piles...to join my garage of shame.
What detachments are people typically using? Do you still just have to fluff up most lists with a couple Boyz units to get the detachment battleforged? Wondering if it's possible to build boyless lists?/troopless.
I am also assuming that as Orks seem to have some more consistent damage output with the weapon profiles, that the other armies have equally gotten some boosts. So things like the battlewagons are still comparatively squishy? As in 8th where if someone wanted it ded. It ded? (The wagons look tough as nails on paper).
EDIT: also specialist mobs remove the clan keyword? So it's a choice between specialist mob Vs kultur? But custom jobs can be applied to any mob regardless and they keep their kultur.
The biggest problem I have with the army of renown is you have no infantry. Depending on the terrain layout (e.g. the GWGT format) that army will be a nightmare to move around the table.
Tomsug wrote: Definitely not Freebootas for planes and Kannonwagon.
Kannonwagon has +1 to hit by default, so it mostly cannot benefit from FB kulture at all (except big shootas…) And you have not enough FB kulture model to really benefit.
Maybe skip that at all, take some mek gunz and take more deffkoptas.
It's worth noting that kannonwagons do not have the WAGON keyword and therefore are not available to the army of reknown...
Dendarien wrote: The biggest problem I have with the army of renown is you have no infantry. Depending on the terrain layout (e.g. the GWGT format) that army will be a nightmare to move around the table.
Which is why I think we need lots of Koptas, at least 10. Once we have the exact wording, if we can make them boomboyz or the thing that gives them a cover save if shot from more than 6 away, then all the better.
Koptas can start behind terrain, unlike non sguig buggies (you lose too much movement moving around said terrain).
Units of 5 koptas super-suck because of morale though. They are quite vulnerable to both high damage weapons like melta and lances, as well high RoF weapons or melee weapons with 2 damage can easily cause additional moral casualties with next to no effort.
In my experience, 3 is the best way to run them, but then again 3x3 koptas plus 3 units of warbikers would eat a lot of slots and it seems like one should avoid tripple outrider.
I think the army of renown is on a similar level as the DG's terminus est. It's a good option when you want to run an army that looks like that, but the hefty limitations imposed on it will keep it from placing regularly, especially once the squigbuggies have received their bonk with the nerf bat.
Jidmah wrote: Units of 5 koptas super-suck because of morale though. They are quite vulnerable to both high damage weapons like melta and lances, as well high RoF weapons or melee weapons with 2 damage can easily cause additional moral casualties with next to no effort.
In my experience, 3 is the best way to run them, but then again 3x3 koptas plus 3 units of warbikers would eat a lot of slots and it seems like one should avoid tripple outrider.
I think the army of renown is on a similar level as the DG's terminus est. It's a good option when you want to run an army that looks like that, but the hefty limitations imposed on it will keep it from placing regularly, especially once the squigbuggies have received their bonk with the nerf bat.
You can sorta mitigate this a bit. They are a tiny bit more durable with the 5+ invul
If you limit your list to 1 unit of 5 deffkoptas
You can move and fire turn 1, charge with 5d3 mortals with crashing through, go through the enhanced speedmob assault with 5 deffkoptas for 45 str 5 ap-1 atks Then use out da sun to remove them from combat and the board and place them in reserves.
Not sure if that’s viable just to use the 5d3 mortal charge 2x in row.
I think 3x3 Koptas are ok, you can even stick with just 2x as well. I mean rokkit shooting is just ok even with boomboys. It’s that brutal charge strat that makes them hit hard.
The army of renown is so limited with 2x outriders you have 12 FA slots.
3x warbikers, 3x scrap jets, 3x squigbuggies, and 3x your choice of deffkoptas or another buggy…it’s not a lot left to chose.
Jidmah wrote: Units of 5 koptas super-suck because of morale though. They are quite vulnerable to both high damage weapons like melta and lances, as well high RoF weapons or melee weapons with 2 damage can easily cause additional moral casualties with next to no effort.
In my experience, 3 is the best way to run them, but then again 3x3 koptas plus 3 units of warbikers would eat a lot of slots and it seems like one should avoid tripple outrider.
I think the army of renown is on a similar level as the DG's terminus est. It's a good option when you want to run an army that looks like that, but the hefty limitations imposed on it will keep it from placing regularly, especially once the squigbuggies have received their bonk with the nerf bat.
I would agree on the number of Koptas (6 for morale means we will need to spend 2 cp on auto pass strat) but there is a case for the mortal wound when charging strat,combined with ramming speed, which just feels wasted with a 3 Kopta squadron.
I will first try 3*3, then 2*5 I think. F..ing GW
I think we need to find a way to make While we stand we fight or grind them down work, because after engagé on all fronts, the last secondary will be tough against some armies…
Overall I am not pleased at all with this supplement, I think they could not have done worse if they had tried. Of course this is a matter of personal preference, but I really would have liked any theme other than BA and speed freaks
Kebabcito wrote: Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?
What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?
There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable
Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.
Kebabcito wrote: Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?
What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?
There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable
Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.
Gungo, Goonhammer said the strat gave « most vehicules » MW on a 4+ per model, but for now, we can’t know for sure Deffkoptas will have this. Just like you I assume they will get it, but we need to prepare for disappointment, just in case. We still don’t know for sure if boomboyz or the cover save for flyers specialist mob will for sure be able to stack with speed mob.
Kebabcito wrote: Why so hyped for 3x3 deffkoptas, isn't it too expensive?
What about airplanes? the only way to have whole army 5++ is with wazboom blastajet, but 210 points... jesus christ. What's your though?
There is a strat that for 1cp deffkoptas do d3 mortal wounds on charge
Speed mod gives them 1 atk on charge but deffkoptas do 3 atks with each atk with spinning blades
There is a chance you can take a specialist mob with speed mob as neither ability is a kultur and both abilities only block kulturs. Meaning you can have -1ap boomboys to make your rokkits better
5+ invul from speedmob (and -1to hit) makes a deffkopta a bit more durable
Deffkoptas got tremendously boosted from speedmob BUT they are still fragile
Except for a 2cp strat that completely removes them from the board even out of combat
Meaning they can completely avoid all return fire a turn and you can redeploy and charge again.
Gungo, Goonhammer said the strat gave « most vehicules » MW on a 4+ per model, but for now, we can’t know for sure Deffkoptas will have this. Just like you I assume they will get it, but we need to prepare for disappointment, just in case. We still don’t know for sure if boomboyz or the cover save for flyers specialist mob will for sure be able to stack with speed mob.
you got to stop taking goonhammer as gospel..
There is literally a screen grab 2 pages back on this forum and I’ve seen complete page scans
It’s 3 parts 1cp on a single speedfreak unit
Warbikers do a mw on 4+ Per model
Vehicles (except scrapjets and boostablasta) do d3 mw on 4+ Per model
Scrapjets and boostablasta do d3mw on 2-5 and 2d3 mortals on 6 per model (can’t use spike ram ability)
The specialist mob thing I’m just guessing (hence I said chance) cause although I’ve seen multiple full page scans. That restriction could be a 1 line item hidden somewhere that simply says you can’t take specialist mobs… although I haven’t seen it yet and I think it’s something they missed.
Jidmah wrote: So, 5 koptas would do an average of 5 MW, a full unit of warbikers averages to 4.5 and trios of KBB and scrapjets are 6 MW.
Honestly, I think this is a good stratagem no matter how you set it up, so big units of koptas aren't that mandatory.
Sorry maximum of 6 d6 rolls to do mortal wounds
So 6-9 warbikers average 3
6+ deffkoptas average 6 (3x other buggies = 3)
3 scrap/kbb buggies average 6 but you can’t use spike ram ability
Ah, true. 6 koptas are just asking for getting shot with blasts though. PBCs or wazzboms will essentially be getting free kills off a unit they want to kill anyways.
Among them one guy who runs kill rigs full of beastsnagga boyz with SJD and wazzbomms, lootas in a tournament winning list and a guy who went with pure ES. Or, in other words, you can get a way with pretty much anything as long as you spam squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes.
Ah thanks Gungo I didn’t see the scans. I don’t take anything as gospel, as a rule, hah hah.
I like that 5 def koptas, with the strat, can nearly kill an ad mech stratoraptor (if the stratoraptor has a 2+, If 3+ then he dead) upon the charge. 5 MWs from the stratagem, then 4 or 5 wounds from the kopta attacks.
Jidmah wrote: Ah, true. 6 koptas are just asking for getting shot with blasts though. PBCs or wazzboms will essentially be getting free kills off a unit they want to kill anyways.
Among them one guy who runs kill rigs full of beastsnagga boyz with SJD and wazzbomms, lootas in a tournament winning list and a guy who went with pure ES.
Or, in other words, you can get a way with pretty much anything as long as you spam squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes.
Ya I’d do 5 for a little safety
In conjunction with out da sun strat you basically ignore shooting for a turn
The fact it works in combat is insane
but 3-4 cp just to do shoot, do mortal wounds on charge, do 45 atks and then disappear to do it again next turn is cool but lot of cp
If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.
When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.
So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.
If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.
I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.
Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.
I mean thier shooting isn’t that much more a threat in an army of renown. Sure they can adv and fire but then they can’t charge. There is a chance they can be boomboys but that’s just -1ap.
You really want to charge. And the fight phase is where they got a big boost with an extra atk (3) and the mortal wound on charge strat. That’s the only reason to take 5/6.
It’s a lot of cp to protect a unit like that and it might be safer just to use 3x3. But it’s a cool trick that does decent mortal wounds for 2 turns if you can charge both turns.
If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.
When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.
So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.
If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.
I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.
Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.
Almost every army that's currently doing well has some way of taking out hiding light vehicles, as that is kind of a prerequisite to defeat the big two that are dominating everything, as well as orks.
Their costs are 300 points plus the opportunity cost of taking the speed freeks army in the first place. You then spend 2 CP for ramming speed, 1 more for crashing through, 2 CP to pick them back up. Next turn, you spend 2 more for ramming speed and another for crashing through again. Assuming that you didn't get overwatched, auspex-scanned or lost a model in combat, that's 2x 8 MW, 5 dead MEQ/13.33 dmg to vehicles from shooting and 6 dead MEQ/6 dmg to vehicles in melee. A bunch of that is going to get lost in overkill, but eh.
So it's not too bad, but not exactly loota star levels either. There are plenty of stratagems and relics that can ruin this plan, let alone the low variance on these averages. When you try to assassinate a target that can actually fight back and you roll below average, it can easily ruin you.
If you are running an actual speed freeks renown army i can see a place for 6 deffkoptas.
When presenting armies, its quite easy to make out if a unit can get hold of your deffkoptas, who mind you, can advance and shoot so distance really isnt their biggest issue anymore if it ever was. You can just place them at the far back if you want.
So if any enemies can get hold of your 6 deffkoptas, just put them in deepstrike.
If not, then you can fly up the board, shoot and use 2CP to just fly off the board again at the end of your turn, just to re-appear again in the next turn.
I can definitely see a use for 6 deffkoptas with the new army of renown as they really arent going to get killed any time soon.
Or just start them off in deepstrike, appear turn 2, shoot, charge, fly off, appear turn 3, rinse and repeat. By the time you've done this once their entire cost should have been repaid id say.
Almost every army that's currently doing well has some way of taking out hiding light vehicles, as that is kind of a prerequisite to defeat the big two that are dominating everything, as well as orks.
Their costs are 300 points plus the opportunity cost of taking the speed freeks army in the first place. You then spend 2 CP for ramming speed, 1 more for crashing through, 2 CP to pick them back up. Next turn, you spend 2 more for ramming speed and another for crashing through again. Assuming that you didn't get overwatched, auspex-scanned or lost a model in combat, that's 2x 8 MW, 5 dead MEQ/13.33 dmg to vehicles from shooting and 6 dead MEQ/6 dmg to vehicles in melee. A bunch of that is going to get lost in overkill, but eh.
So it's not too bad, but not exactly loota star levels either. There are plenty of stratagems and relics that can ruin this plan, let alone the low variance on these averages. When you try to assassinate a target that can actually fight back and you roll below average, it can easily ruin you.
to my defence i dont think i would pick the Mortal wounds stratagem i cant remember the name of, next to ramming speed.
I'd probably do that on my warbikers maybe. or something else.
And i dont think after i had picked up my deffkoptas that i would ramming speed them in again, because by then (if i started in deepstrike) we've reached turn 3 and a lot should be dead by then given the army of renown is a generally shooty army.
Turn 2 deepstrike, shoot, ramming speed, fly out Turn 3: shoot, hopefully get off a charge (if not, how much is even alive at the end of turn 3?), stay on the board. Turn 4: if they die, they die.
Emicrania wrote: I believe there is a list out there for the Speed Freaks army. Since I hate the FB list and I´m doing fairly good with my triple squigboss treath, Board control and half MSU is always a good thing and there are nice combo to take advantage of:
ES Outrider
Deffkilla watrike Warlord and Relic (Fasta than Youz + Redder paint+ MW on CC Kustom Job)
9x Warbikers +PK 9x Warbikers +PK 5x Warbikers +PK 1 Nitro Squig RTS 1 RTS 1 RTS 1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota
ES Outrider
Warboss on warbike +Relic Klaw and Killy but Brutal
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ
1x MTSJ with Chains (MW on fall back)
3x Deffkoptas
3x Deffkoptas
1 Dakkajet 6x Supashoota
-------------
The deffkilla is in for abusing adv+charge bikes T1 and 2 when he should be up there, giving fight last, in order to nuke mid,easy targets.
The Warbikers is killing caracthers or veichles. (1 warbiker boss = 1 dead Dreadknight :( )
The warbikers on Speedwaahg turn shoots 108 shots AND have AP1 AND move 20" and shoots AND for 1 Cp rerolls 1 to hit AND get +1A on charge AND they are obsec AND they have 5++ AND can get +1AP and 1S for 2CP... just dont charge stuff that spam D3 and you are good to go.
The squigs are backfield or frontrow to screen (Yep. often those 2d6 mortar shots wont do much)
The MTSJ are there to do their job + use Crashing Trhu, if possible with warbikers.
Deffkoptas can use the new strat and move 20" and shoot their rockets.
Planes might get nerfed to 1 per detachment so they are there for thatand use the reroll 1 to hit strat to snipe char or clean chaff.
You get 7+5 CP to spam reroll to hits, autopass +warboss morale strat and crashing trhu + Chaaarge.
I think it has legs and might really counter 120 skitarii and drukhari. You can also effectvively cover an entire obj only by sheer base size.
Forgot a MANDATORY -1 to hit from the deffkoptas in the back that basically cover the whole army. So you start with 5, if you go second
Good list and made me rethink my list. Instead of going all in on freebooter there isn’t a lot of reason to do that so evil suns was good for the warbiker detachment.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801817.page#11250428 So now Dakkajets get +1 to hit and a warbikers unit can advance, shoot and charge with the target fighting last and I only lose freebooter banner.
Another option for the Speed Mob without using Ramming Speed on the Deffkoptas might be to run them as Evil Sunz and use 1 CP each turn to hide them again with Drive by Dakka.
Basically i see two valid options for Speed Mob:
Running them as Freebooters to trigger competetive streak for 3-4 planes with loads of buggies, Koptas and Warbikers + driving around with a Warboss with ObSec, ard as nails and Deathskull banna.
Evil Sunz with faster than yooz to slingshot Warbikers and use Drive by Dakka on a big squad of Koptas with Rezmekkas paint on your HQ of choice to sweeten things up.
While you can go for 3 detachments if you really want to go for tripple Warboss, i think taking two will be just fine and leaves you with a little bit more CP than you usual Ork lists, 7-9 CP gives enough to play with the new strats.
I don't really see a reason for tripple warboss builds in a speed freeks army though. You can't have beastbosses and the third detachment is 3 CP since you can only have outrider detachments.
Grotrebel wrote: Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.
Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.
But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.
Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.
Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.
Grotrebel wrote: Really sad the Speed Mob will never profit from a regular Waaagh. Would have made for a neat Warbike first turn strike.
Otherwise I think its a valid alternative to the Freebooters Buggy Spam as you skip the competetive streak gamble for the wound rerolls. Also the ObSec warboss with Badskull Banner and ARD as nails sounds like a fun objective stealer.
But to be fair the restrictions on Secondaries are tough, that list really needs to cripple an opponent turn 1-2.
Still I really like it, have always been a fan of the Speedwaaagh without infantry and this will be great for anything up to semi competetive, not sure if it will reach our top 3 builds.
Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.
Speed Mob is an Army of Renown, like every other Army of Renown the restrictions are applied to all detachments in the army.
SemperMortis wrote: Correct me if I am wrong...but you can take a Speed Mob with a Regular WAAAAGH! The only thing you have to do is make the Speed Mob a Secondary detachment and put a foot sloggin Warboss as your Warlord....Which with that in mind, Deffkoptas would be getting 12 attacks each! 2 base, +1 for Speedmob and +1 for WAAAAGH. If you want to be insane and really stack on the buffs, you could give them +1 attack from a Weirdboy to get them up to 15 attacks each LOL.
You are wrong
Speed Mob imposes its restrictions and benefits on your entire army.
In case anyone still hasn't seen it, in this video you can see the whole book:
Nice page by page preview
I even stopped and read the pages on army of renown and speedfreak…
There is nothing in this campaign book that prevents you from making an army of renown unit into a specialist mob… and neither ability is a kultur so they both stack…
However do remember that a specialist unit is <klan> “Specialist name” so any auras or abilities that effect your detachments actual klan will not work. I think in speed mob it only means you can’t use breakin heads strat.
Speedmob deffkopta boomboys are a go!
Or kustom boosta blasta pyromaniac
Not sure what’s better 3x deffkoptas w/ 6d3 rokkits w/ -1 Ap or 1x KBB w 4d6 flamers that can only roll min 3 hits?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grotrebel wrote: Another option for the Speed Mob without using Ramming Speed on the Deffkoptas might be to run them as Evil Sunz and use 1 CP each turn to hide them again with Drive by Dakka.
Basically i see two valid options for Speed Mob:
Running them as Freebooters to trigger competetive streak for 3-4 planes with loads of buggies, Koptas and Warbikers + driving around with a Warboss with ObSec, ard as nails and Deathskull banna.
Evil Sunz with faster than yooz to slingshot Warbikers and use Drive by Dakka on a big squad of Koptas with Rezmekkas paint on your HQ of choice to sweeten things up.
While you can go for 3 detachments if you really want to go for tripple Warboss, i think taking two will be just fine and leaves you with a little bit more CP than you usual Ork lists, 7-9 CP gives enough to play with the new strats.
I mean use both
The evil sun outrider detachment with 3x bike units, deffkopta unit, and 2x buggies
Then freebooter outrider detachment with 3x squigbuggies and 2x scrapjets and 1x deffkopta and 2x dakkajets
That entire freebooter detachment should trigger +1 to hit for the dakkajets
And the evil sun ability to charge after adv only works on core warbikers anyway
Speed Mob imposes its restrictions and benefits on your entire army.
In case anyone still hasn't seen it, in this video you can see the whole book:
Oh well. With that in mind, I don't really see it being a buff over regular Freeboota list. It trades a 50% reduction in dmg output. (BS4+ going back to 5+) for an extra pip of AP on your attacks, being more mobile and being better in CC on the charge and of course the extra protection of an army wide 5++ if you advance...but if you do you can't charge and use the CC portion at all. Its a nice change up, but its more of the same I think.
I am a bit more impressed with the Blood axe supplement. Definitely a couple of extra tricks which are helpful and I will consider adding to my Alphork strike. I especially like the +2 to charge, I very well might change out some units again and add in some blobs of Stormboyz for that Turn 2 7' charge. It would keep 330+ pts in reserve and safe until turn 2 and I would have a somewhat reliable re-rollable 7' charge out of deep strike. Only problem is that in my list I am in my opponents face turn 1 and usually compress the areas I can feasibly deploy them in turn 2. We will see.
I mean blood axe supplement doesn’t take anything away and gives more options if you want to make more use out of kommandos or stormboys. It’s not earth shattering but blood axes was already decent and this just makes them better. I may actually like the blood axe kustom shoota relic better then the codex version, but again minor upgrade. It’s a decent supplement given the fact it doesn’t make bloodaxes noticeably better then goff or deathskulls.
However I kinda think the speedmob is ever slightly better then freebooter speed waggh for competitive lists. It may not have the big wins vs certain lists but will be more reliable overall.
The worst part of the speedmob is that you literally have no real choices in list design. Every speedmob list is going to be near identical. BUT you still take 2 detachments and your aircraft in the freebooter detachment will still get the freebooter +1 to hit… your evilsun biker detachment is just immensely better..
You lose out on the +1 to hit on the buggies but gain reroll 1 to wound aura. Multiple useful strategems. Much better deffkoptas.. obj secured units which most buggy lists lacked, a strategem to fall back and shoot, the ability to move and advance and shoot for better targeting or avoidance, move adv shoot and charge for a warbiker unit, universal 6++ invul and 5++ pretty much the rest of the game after your first move, better mobility and survivability with a little loss in first turn offensive ability. I mean I feel speedmob boomboys deffkoptas are overall better then kmk mekguns. Just looking at the speedmob list I feel I can use more CP to play it.
I mean if i had more cp I could take 6x deffkoptas 1 with big bomb, and ramming speed the unit for up to 8d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (1 is 2+). That’s insane your averaging almost 9 mortal wounds on charge followed by 45 deffkopta atks. 3cp is still a lot for that and the big bomb only works on move not charge range but still it’s a lot.
IMO the big downside of the speed mob is that you lose kommadoz and storm boyz. Almost every list placing well currently uses those to score secondaries, and three units of bikers will not be able to compensate for that.
Jidmah wrote: IMO the big downside of the speed mob is that you lose kommadoz and storm boyz. Almost every list placing well currently uses those to score secondaries, and three units of bikers will not be able to compensate for that.
The socal list had no infantry but a big Mek… and the 18x buggy list in the London major had the same.
And I’m not thrilled with storm boys as they are extremely fragile but yes a lot of the other well rounded lists lean heavily on those units for activations which the speedmob can’t do at all. However I think multiple units of warbikers are durable for the in speed mob.. t5 3w (nob 4w) 4+sv 5++ invul and -1 to hit takes a lot to deal with. Throw in ~20x of those.
But I agree I would have loved to have kommandos if simply to have another unit in speedmob outside of fast atk slot. And they are probably our best point value unit. To be fair I’ll likely not play this list as I don’t feel like building 3x boxes of bikers as I only have 12x warbikers and a warboss on bike and 6x deffkoptas ; and I can’t even try out a speedmob version of this list unless you have these exact units… so I’m just going to stick with my beast snagga Killrig/buggy list. I’ll let the meta chasers decide if it’s better.
Yeah blood axes new stuff seems really tailored to infantry play for the most part. Biggest speedwaugh upgrade is still provided by infantry (Spotted Em!) I think the big thing the blood axes tricks give you is flexibility, especially your kommandos. Now your kommandos can even more reliably kill things in melee, provide assistance for shooting, and are an even better screen for countercharge play. They even got a big defensive boost with duck an cova, I just wish we had a way to infiltrate a character that can take it.
There is an absolutely brutal first turn charge infantry list in there for blood axes. Maybe not something that will take top tables, but its going to ruin someones day. Lots of stormboyz, kommandos, trukk boyz, warbikers, and some fire support to taste, and you have a pretty cool army there. Especially with abilities like being able to advance and do actions, a sniper shoota relic, and all the other weird little things they can do.
For example. You could take Duck and Cover with Fight detector to protect a home objective. Opponent cant shoot unless theyre within 12", meaning theyll want to deepstrike a unit in to take them out. If they deepstrike the unit close enough to shoot, odds are theyre close enougg for fight detecta to proc. Probably not something youd use a lot but could be handy if something like tau deepstriking suits or IG stormtrooper doom drops became real common. If nothing else, a fun thing to use for friendly games.
Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.
Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.
And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.
And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.
However. There is one detail to see with the Speedmob in general.
Any of your moves will be an advance. Even 1” move will be advance (6 forward, 5 backward) to get 5++. Even stationary units will advance (6” forward, 5,999” back). Which is little bit “that guy” system imho…
So it' s full 5++.
Except if you go second. It is before you move, so in such case, in the moment you need 5++ the most, you get just 6++.
yeah kinda weird they didnt put a "end their move X distance from their last position" restriction in there.
Even if it was just 6" it would force them to move and sometimes block a vehicle or two from getting the 5++
Tomsug wrote: Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.
Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.
And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.
And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.
That might be, but when I went through articles on goonhammer for the past few weekends, the overwhelming majority of high placing lists did have those. And I honestly can't picture such a list doing well when running into Death Guard, Dark Angel or Custodes which still have a relevant amount players in tournaments.
Tomsug wrote: Freeboota buggy lists without infantry has been already seen on top places I believe. These units in such list screen. Do not score. Screen.
Because you don' t need to score if the opponent is dead T2.
And the only strategy to win with such list is to table opponent asap.
And you can screen with jets/bikers/koptas too.
However. There is one detail to see with the Speedmob in general.
Any of your moves will be an advance. Even 1” move will be advance (6 forward, 5 backward) to get 5++. Even stationary units will advance (6” forward, 5,999” back). Which is little bit “that guy” system imho…
So it' s full 5++.
Except if you go second. It is before you move, so in such case, in the moment you need 5++ the most, you get just 6++.
I mean the socal list and London GT 18x buggy spam won it all but as you said did it with alpha strike lists with good matchups at the end. As jidmah said these lists had issues with admech and deathguard in those tournaments which they didn’t face in the final tables or won it all despite losing those games during the tournament.
The speedmob lists tend to lose a little alpha strike potential for more move, assault, and obj secured play. Which is better for longer games. My gut says the list is better overall as it’s less swingy and less dependant on alpha strikes. However dropping warbikers and deffkoptas even in speedmob is still easier then ramshackle buggies and aircraft spam.
Niiai wrote: How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.
Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.
It's pretty brutal. If there's one thing GW is worse at than pricing appropriately for shooting units with BS5+ it's pricing appropriately for units with poor leadership and no morale mitigation. The price increase on Boyz was unwarranted when they'd already compensated for the buffs they'd given with the nerf to mob rule. I do think straight up ignoring morale is fairly lame and don't think the old version of mob rule ought to have remained, but this was the wrong way to address it.
Niiai wrote: How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.
Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.
Essentially, I'm simply not running units of more than 10 models anymore. It rarely factors anywhere else except when you have expensive multi-wound models like koptas, kanz or mek guns. Those you just run in threes.
I think it's a good thing that morale matters now, though I feel like it is a bit overtuned for boyz - mobs of 20 should not be a total liability like they are now.
Niiai wrote: How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.
Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.
It's pretty brutal. If there's one thing GW is worse at than pricing appropriately for shooting units with BS5+ it's pricing appropriately for units with poor leadership and no morale mitigation. The price increase on Boyz was unwarranted when they'd already compensated for the buffs they'd given with the nerf to mob rule. I do think straight up ignoring morale is fairly lame and don't think the old version of mob rule ought to have remained, but this was the wrong way to address it.
It pretty much highlights GW's problem with rules writing for morale in general. They put it in the game but then faction rules or strats either straight up let you ignore it (i.e. synapse or Rubric Marines) or you have enough ways to mitigate it that it through MSU or stuff like ATSKNF that its effectively only going to only come up like once or twice a game.
It's been a problem even since 5th ed, it's always been an all or nothing affair and smaller units have almost always been able to game the system too. Fearless with No Retreat meant power armoured guys like KB would be able to tank the losses they suffered in combat from morale whereas sufficient losses on the side of a big mob of boyz meant we could lose an entire unit depending on how many boyz died in combat. The worst part is that some factions suffer from it more disproportionately than others. Morale really should be about debuffs on a unit rather than fleeing, like -1 to hit, halved movement, being unable to do actions, etc.
I mean a smarter system would have made it so larger units mitigate morale issues better BUT blast weapons do more damage to larger units.
Instead the both blasts and morale are better with smaller units.
I mean mob rule would have been better if most ork units were leadership 6 and every 5 models gave them +1 leadership. With units like vehicles hq, and nobs being ld7 and a very few solo models being ld8
This would work best making orks strong morale mitigation early but as they take casualties the units fall apart. I also think Gw moved the ignore morale abilities into ignore attrition abilities now which is almost as bad.
Morale is a weird thing anyways when in the fluff essentially all but two factions wouldn't hesitate one second before charging a building-sized daemon towering above them. And one of those factions would do it anyways after their superior officer was shot in the head by a comissar.
Jidmah wrote: Morale is a weird thing anyways when in the fluff essentially all but two factions wouldn't hesitate one second before charging a building-sized daemon towering above them. And one of those factions would do it anyways after their superior officer was shot in the head by a comissar.
Yeah, 40k's setting is such that regular ideas of morale in warfare basically don't exist since so many warriors have either a death wish, are inured to fear, or are automotons. So when you do lose a model to morale, it's supposed to potentially reflect people dragging back their wounded amongst other things but it ultimately feels like a very "lose more" mechanic when it should be more nuanced especially for armies that are like Necrons or Nids where they wouldn't care about casualties.
More nobz +1 More units for objs/actions +1 Easier to move through terrain +1 Never have half the unit unable to swing +1 Morale fails just as often for big units as small units but you roll way less 1-2's on the attrition test +1 Can fit in trukks w/o issue +1
What do bigass mobs giv eyou? A giant bullseye for blast weapons and the typical 10+ AP1 shot weapons -1 Average 3-6 extra deaths from poke-damage morale failure -1 Issues squeezing into melee -1 Literally no extra perks due to their size -1 Technically better target for stratagems such as More Dakka or Badmoonz Strat +1
For some stupid reason Mob Rule is only looking at the "half strength" trigger not how many models are actually in the unit now. So now a random squad of 3 nobz sitting near some boyz can prevent said boyz from running away on a 2. And thats such a minor buff anyway.
Previously: 10 bolter shots hit 30 boyz = 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3-4 dead orks, impossible to fail morale. Now: 10 bolters shots hit 40 boyz = 7 hits = 2-3 wounds = 2-3 dead orks and can fail morale on a 50-50 roll. If they fail, 1 dies and now roll 26 flippin dice which typically is 4-6 MORE that die for a total of 7-9 on average (not 100% exact math but close enough). The morale nerf hurt ork boyz way harder than the T5 buffed them. AND they cost more.
Big blobs of orks are useless, never field more than 10 again. Its legit a big enough issue ive thought about fielding the core rule book Leadership warlord trait somewhere, since the ork ones arent really that great for a Big Mek generally.
seriously? that is fething stupid beyond stupid.
Lets prevent them from getting multiple buggies with kustom jobs
Actually lets prevent them from using multiple buggies too if they want kustom jobs.
Thats an even bigger knee-jerk reaction than the Tau Commander spam lists. This is ARMY WIDE limit of 1, not per detachment.
Jesus freaking christ what an overreacted nerf.
blufury wrote: Should have just removed squadron, and make it single buggie per slot. Would have been better in most cases.
Literally was not the issue so it would not have changed a thing.
Nobody is spamming 9 of a buggy, only in theory they are. The actual lists being ran are 3x1 squads, which are unaffected by removing squads.
This technically doesnt affect me since the only buggies i have repeats of are Squigbuggies and Boostablastas (which i have 2 of rather than 1). But i didnt like running them as a squad purely because squads of a model that big are obnoxious.
They need to bring back the splitting and/or multimodel kustom jobs now. Limited to 1 in the entire ARMY is bullgak
They need to bring back the splitting and/or multimodel kustom jobs now.
That's what I mean by removing squadrons. I ran a 2 unit squigbuggy and 1 nitro squig. You will rarely see kustom jobs now, esp since the squigbuggie has the best job.
Way to go Games workshop. Let add a "fix" that creates new issues and doesnt work well with our own rules of kustom jobs. They're just bowing down to peer pressure and making a fast "fix" rather than actually thinking properly about how to make this work with a proper thought through nerf.
And im assuming theres no increase to leadership, so if 2 scrapjets dies, i should casually accept that i lose 90 points to morale if i roll a 6.
Thanks daddy games workshop.
I think most orks players dont mind a balance nerf to buggies but this is the most slowed update ive ever seen. I wasnt even capable of comprehending such a stupid way of balancing buggies so it hadnt even crossed my mind this could be a thing.
Vineheart01 wrote: seriously? that is fething stupid beyond stupid.
Lets prevent them from getting multiple buggies with kustom jobs
Actually lets prevent them from using multiple buggies too if they want kustom jobs.
Thats an even bigger knee-jerk reaction than the Tau Commander spam lists. This is ARMY WIDE limit of 1, not per detachment.
Jesus freaking christ what an overreacted nerf.
Makes kustom jobs absolutely useless on buggies and that’s all this does..
People will still spam 6-9 buggies. And an ever slight chance to overkill a buggy if the ork doesn’t go first… it does little to slow first turn surge.
I’d be fine with this if kustom jobs were allowed on a model in a unit.
G00fySmiley wrote: I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)
All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.
At least Boosta Blastas and Dragstas will have their comeback now.
3 Squigbuggies, 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets, 3 Boosta Blastas, 1 Dakkajet and 1 Wazbom it is.
Or maybe just 2 of each except the Squigbuggy to be safe morale wise.
I really wish they had just made it something like 1 Buggy per Slot or maybe even 1 per detachment each.
I'd rather field 2 x 1 than 1 x 3 tbh.
G00fySmiley wrote: I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)
All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.
Why is units of 1 shokk jump bad?
Regardless none of these slot restrictions stops buggy spam from winning people will still take 2-3 of the best buggies. You just might see 2-3 KBB or shock jumps as well now. I mean the socal list was 3x squig, 3 scrap, 1 kbb, 1shokk. (4 planes though)
I really don’t like the kustom job on buggy nerf. They were mostly bad already but it was a good place to drop a few extra points leftover on list building.
G00fySmiley wrote: I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)
All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.
Why is units of 1 shokk jump bad?
Regardless none of these slot restrictions stops buggy spam from winning people will still take 2-3 of the best buggies. You just might see 2-3 KBB or shock jumps as well now. I mean the socal list was 3x squig, 3 scrap, 1 kbb, 1shokk. (4 planes though)
I really don’t like the kustom job on buggy nerf. They were mostly bad already but it was a good place to drop a few extra points leftover on list building.
My bad, I totally misread his post and thought he was asking for 0-1 on each buggy datasheet, not 1 model per FoC choice.
G00fySmiley wrote: I am def on team I wish they had just limited it to one buggy per slot. then you can only have 3 of each buggy (i see no problem there honestly)
All that does is make the shokkjump dragsta the worst buggy in the book.
There actually has been a tournament winning list running two SJD - they are part of the kill rig/wazbom list.
What a time to have bought two extra scrapjets for variety, dammit. Im lucky compared to kost though. Still that limit is ridiculous. Wheres the dark eldar raider limit? The admech ironstrider limit? Couldve just done a points increase
It should be much more logical to make them more expensive and do not breake the system.
That is really super stupid. It was possible to simply increase the price. Simple. Systematic. Functional.
No. Not good enough! Let' s make a stupid rare rules written somewhere in the corner on 3 page www pdf.
And we are on the begiinning of the new codex. Such way it will be almost impossible to build a listin a year, because you would have to follow tons of “rare rule” limitations scattered accros the zilion on sources.. meehhhhh
MrMoustaffa wrote: What a time to have bought two extra scrapjets for variety, dammit. Im lucky compared to kost though. Still that limit is ridiculous. Wheres the dark eldar raider limit? The admech ironstrider limit? Couldve just done a points increase
they released whole new points for drukari and admech. i have yet to dive in and see the full work up but hoping its a good balance but not overdone (i play neither faction but do not any army to be nerfed to unusability)
I think the best part about this recent "nerf" is that I had been considering acquiring a 2nd squadron of Scrapjets. They are literally the only buggies I own and I think they look the best honestly. As far as the Airplane nerf, Little surprised by how drastic the nerf was, but ironically its just another example of GW shooting themselves in the foot. I had also been considering getting MORE flyers. I currently own 3, all built as fighta-bommas (Dakkajets with bombs). Now I see no reason to ever buy another one because I won't even be able to play with all the ones I currently have
GW Did this to me at the start of the edition when they limited stormboyz to 20, I have 75, and Had been planning on getting another 15 to finish out the 3 blobs. Now I have 15 too many and the same with Mek gunz, I have 9...well that is the most you can field now so all done as well. All this means is I can now devote all my resources into acquiring a bunch of kommandos when they get released. I currently have 30 kitbashed ones but I really want the new models so I can return my kitbashed ones to their original style which was 'Ard boyz
I think overall this isn't that bad of a nerf, it could have been significantly worse! so overall I am not happy, but not unhappy. Especially since this doesn't impact my style of play in the slightest.
You assume a point increase isn’t coming as well?
I assure you this is only part 1 of the ork nerf..
Playtester rumors already had buggy and ork plane point increases for CA… this is still coming we just get the luxury of paying for it next month..
Admech and drukari got thier nerf as a free early Xmas present.
Put simply after 6 months of admech and drukari dominance GW had an early emergency nerf because 2 weeks an ork list won a tournament. Even though the planned point hikes were already in the printed CA book. Gw had to rush the first part of the ork nerf out.
MrMoustaffa wrote: What a time to have bought two extra scrapjets for variety, dammit. Im lucky compared to kost though. Still that limit is ridiculous. Wheres the dark eldar raider limit? The admech ironstrider limit? Couldve just done a points increase
they released whole new points for drukari and admech. i have yet to dive in and see the full work up but hoping its a good balance but not overdone (i play neither faction but do not any army to be nerfed to unusability)
That’s just an early release of the Chapter approved next month…
Orks are getting a point hike too.. we just have to pay for it.
It’s about a 10-15% point hike for them and I expect the same for orks.
The Mars Flyer Admech list got 300 points + more expensive, so that's kinda a win for us. Vanguard, Ranger, Stratoraptors, Chickens, Infiltrators Manipulus all got a point hike + they will just get 2 instead of 3-4 flyers.
Basically the top Admech list with 4 flyers stays the same but just 2 instead 4 flyers.
Not sure about the exact Drukhari nerfs but it seems they got a solid point hike as well.
If I convert my remaining 2 Squigbuggies to Boosta Blastas I have 3 of each of the Buggies so at least no more Buggy painting for me.^^
MrMoustaffa wrote: What a time to have bought two extra scrapjets for variety, dammit. Im lucky compared to kost though. Still that limit is ridiculous. Wheres the dark eldar raider limit? The admech ironstrider limit? Couldve just done a points increase
they released whole new points for drukari and admech. i have yet to dive in and see the full work up but hoping its a good balance but not overdone (i play neither faction but do not any army to be nerfed to unusability)
Skitarii Marshall went up 10pts
Manipulus went up 10pts
Rangers went up 1ppm
Vanguard went up 1ppm
Infiltrators went up 1ppm
Ruststalkers went up 1ppm
Ironstrider Ballistarii went up 10ppm
Kastelan Robots went DOWN 10ppm
Archaeopter Fusilave went up 20ppm
Stratoraptor wet up 20ppm
Holy Orders
Artisans went up 10pts
Logi went up 5pts
The biggest ones are the flyers and the chickenwalkers getting slapped with the nerf bat. A twin Lascannon Chickenwalker is now 85pts
Dark Eldar:
Archon went up 5ppm
Haemonculus went DOWN 10ppm
Succubus went up 20ppm
Wyches went up 2ppm
Grotesques went down 5ppm
Incubi went up 2ppm
Cronos went up 5ppm
Ravager went down 10ppm
Talos went down 10ppm
Venom....went down 10ppm
Razorwing jetfighter went down 20ppm
Voidraven bomber went down 10ppm.
So nerfs to the infantry...but venoms got cheaper which nullifies MOST of those point increases if you were running venom spam with infantry inside..like say...incubi, all told that little build just went from 155pts for a venom and 5 incubi to....155pts for a venom and 5 incubi
Holy moly. It's shocking to me how quickly GW reacts to when Orks get even a whiff of competitive ability that they respond with such an uncompromising and unuanced way of trying to shut it down. The ruleset for Orks hasn't even been out for that long and they've already resorted to the nerfhammer in a way that actively screws most Ork player collections. Meanwhile when its other factions they take their sweet time making slight changes that doesn't fundamentally alter the structure of building an army.
I don't think the Drukhari transports really needed a big points adjustment. It's part of the faction identity so to me it's OK they're priced aggressively (this same logic should apply to boyz making them 8 PPM).
The succubus at 65 points was criminal though.
I presume CA will have no points adjustments for orks, which is probably a good thing. The nerfs to planes and buggies is already pretty hefty. Our infantry and characters definitely need some discounts though.
I guess I’m tabling the idea of my deff skwadron inspired army.
It was literally going to be all fliers and scrapjets lol, that got shunted into the ground I guess.
Dendarien wrote: I don't think the Drukhari transports really needed a big points adjustment. It's part of the faction identity so to me it's OK they're priced aggressively (this same logic should apply to boyz making them 8 PPM).
The succubus at 65 points was criminal though.
I presume CA will have no points adjustments for orks, which is probably a good thing. The nerfs to planes and buggies is already pretty hefty. Our infantry and characters definitely need some discounts though.
You presume wrongly… we are getting a points hike..
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Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I guess I’m tabling the idea of my deff skwadron inspired army.
It was literally going to be all fliers and scrapjets lol, that got shunted into the ground I guess.
I mean it’s only blocked in matched play…
You weren’t planning on using that competitively anyway we’re you?
I’m working on an entire crusade campaign with friends and pretty much any fluffy and thematic thing goes if that’s what you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for reference on how litttle this change effects orks other then making list options even more convoluted. Here is my speed mob army of renown list I made 2 days ago.
All I literally did was combine the buggies and drop the nitro squigs for another warbiker. Hint: it has 8 buggies and it’s still overpowered… probably moreso then the socal list that won.
Dendarien wrote: I don't think the Drukhari transports really needed a big points adjustment. It's part of the faction identity so to me it's OK they're priced aggressively (this same logic should apply to boyz making them 8 PPM).
The succubus at 65 points was criminal though.
I presume CA will have no points adjustments for orks, which is probably a good thing. The nerfs to planes and buggies is already pretty hefty. Our infantry and characters definitely need some discounts though.
Yes dark eldar transports are a big theme in their army. But compare a raider or a venom to a Trukk. Which is better?
A Trukk is 70pts T6 10 wounds 4+ save, has a useless big shoota thanks to the weapon being meh and BS5+ and can transport 12 infantry models. It also has ramshackle and open topped for special rules. In CC its 3 attacks at S6 but it hits on a 5+.
A Venom is now 65pts Its T5 and only 6 wounds with a 4+ save but it has a 5+ invuln and native -1 to hit. It has fly, its faster, its BS3 and WS4, its armed with a Splinter cannon and a pair of splinter rifles, its got 3 attacks at S6 -1AP in CC and it is also open topped and can carry 6 models. its superior internally compared to the trukk across the board.
As far as CA points, I will be shocked if Orkz don't receive more nerfs in CA. I am kind of hoping we get some buffs as well. It would be nice to make stormboyz worth taking, not to mention killa kanz, dreadz, wagonz, nauts etc.
Old codex buggies were better. To play with them was more complex and more fun than this freeboota nonsence and there was no pressure for such stupid nerfs
They ought to have put split speed mob back in if this was their solution. Running 3 models and actually planning to move them around the board isn't feasible on most setups (which is why squigbuggies could run 3, as they didn't need to move much). I feel bad for anyone who owns more than a single Dragsta, you don't run them as more than 1 model so now you can only ever field 1.
Hah hah I have been playing since end of 4th, maining nids (+ later gsc) and orks, and have seen my fair share of GW nonsense with xenos armies. But this takes the cookie. We have been hit so hard I don’t even have words for it
Freebooter wasn’t the problem…
The main issue is drukari run around w str 7 splinter cannnons vs ramshackle and poison wpns that our vehicles laugh at.. and we hardcounter drukari w vehicle spam
Which made the meta crowd freak out…
So an emergency and Knee jerk nerf was made that does little to fix ork buggy strengths and a hard flyer nerf because fixing flyer base abuse is hard to do. I’m kinda ok w flyer base nerf as I don’t think there is an elegant way to fix it.
Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.
Tomsug wrote: Old codex buggies were better. To play with them was more complex and more fun than this freeboota nonsence and there was no pressure for such stupid nerfs
It was certainly more intuitive and straightforward to use versus whatever arbitrary limitations they've used now to limit the abuse of one buggy (squigbuggies). The main weakness of old buggies was that they were somewhat over reliant on kustom jobs for performance, but if they had the stats and prices of the same ones now and we toned down the kustom jobs a bit (while also making sure they were actually available to the entire squadron) I think we would be in a pretty good spot for them to have a more focused approach in handling outliers in performance. Instead we get a bizarre blanket restriction that frankly will just hurt their bottom line. I guess enough buggies have sold that they don't care anymore.
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Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.
Legit. It's very weird that GW seems so complacent when other factions have their time in the sun, but the moment Orks get a glimpse of warmth it's instant eclipse on us ladz.
addnid wrote: Hah hah I have been playing since end of 4th, maining nids (+ later gsc) and orks, and have seen my fair share of GW nonsense with xenos armies. But this takes the cookie. We have been hit so hard I don’t even have words for it
This isn’t hard YET
Expect more nerfs… with a points hike in Chapter approved
I’m serious.. look at how they handled greentide…
Boys weren’t that great but they did well last edition by swarming somewhat cheap bodies on the board and trying to hold objectives… we did okay for a bit until armies got way more lethal but players complained our army was to slow to play against… and so GW did a triple nerf on them.
Completely gutted all morale
Removed the green tide strategem
And then it still makes no sense to me they removed the +1 atk over 20 models for boys..
There is no reason to play large squads of boys now and somehow they think this is a good job.
addnid wrote: Hah hah I have been playing since end of 4th, maining nids (+ later gsc) and orks, and have seen my fair share of GW nonsense with xenos armies. But this takes the cookie. We have been hit so hard I don’t even have words for it
This isn’t hard YET
Expect more nerfs… with a points hike in Chapter approved
I’m serious.. look at how they handled greentide…
Boys weren’t that great but they did well last edition by swarming somewhat cheap bodies on the board and trying to hold objectives… we did okay for a bit until armies got way more lethal but players complained our army was to slow to play against… and so GW did a triple nerf on them.
Completely gutted all morale
Removed the green tide strategem
And then it still makes no sense to me they removed the +1 atk over 20 models for boys..
There is no reason to play large squads of boys now and somehow they think this is a good job.
If they do just hit the buggies with price hikes and do nothing else with the update for Orks, we will be stuck using the alpha ork strike list of kommandos and trukk boyz and that's it. I'm fine with that being one of the competitive archetypes, but nothing else? It'd be a damn travesty. Especially since other stuff like battlewagon brigade, green tide and dred mob are non-starters atm. We seriously need a proper greenskin advocate on the GW writing team because clearly no one actually mains Orks as an army there.
addnid wrote: Hah hah I have been playing since end of 4th, maining nids (+ later gsc) and orks, and have seen my fair share of GW nonsense with xenos armies. But this takes the cookie. We have been hit so hard I don’t even have words for it
This isn’t hard YET
Expect more nerfs… with a points hike in Chapter approved
I’m serious.. look at how they handled greentide…
Boys weren’t that great but they did well last edition by swarming somewhat cheap bodies on the board and trying to hold objectives… we did okay for a bit until armies got way more lethal but players complained our army was to slow to play against… and so GW did a triple nerf on them.
Completely gutted all morale
Removed the green tide strategem
And then it still makes no sense to me they removed the +1 atk over 20 models for boys..
There is no reason to play large squads of boys now and somehow they think this is a good job.
If they do just hit the buggies with price hikes and do nothing else with the update for Orks, we will be stuck using the alpha ork strike list of kommandos and trukk boyz and that's it. I'm fine with that being one of the competitive archetypes, but nothing else? It'd be a damn travesty. Especially since other stuff like battlewagon brigade, green tide and dred mob are non-starters atm. We seriously need a proper greenskin advocate on the GW writing team because clearly no one actually mains Orks as an army there.
I’m really hoping for like, a points drop on trukks, especially with what venoms are at. That and some drops on our infantry shooting units.
I truly believe greentide was removed because it slowed down the game and GW is making some effort to speed up play.
Even with a modest point hike on some buggies and dakkajets; buggy lists will be okay… if they point hike other popular units like kommandos and stormboys. 9th is going to be a long rough ride. There is a slim chance someone on GW rules team realizes ork boys are slightly over costed and drops them 1pt but that still won’t make greentide good.. outside of point changes I don’t expect any rules fixed until 10th Ed..
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m glad orks never change, we’re already back to being the off-meta it seems.
I can't help but feel the irony in comments like this while people claim this FAQ by GW was knee jerk.
I mean come on they nerf flyers 2 weeks after the last major tournament was won by an ork player who abused flyer bases… no other major tournament since had that issue since.
The Internet lost thier proverbial gak with numerous threads with titles like nerf orks, ork player wipes out 1800 pts first turn and game is to lethal…
Shortly followed by a rare almost never seen emergency rules update to nerf flyers oh and nerf orks… with the added bonus of moving up the admech and drukari point updates which was already planned months ago and printed in the CA book a little earlier…
But sure this wasn’t knee jerk reaction to orks winning at all…
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.
Wait, Mek gunz? Do you mean with the switch to 9th or did I miss something with this FAQ?
I do get the feeling that Orks aren’t “supposed” to be competitive in the opinion of the community or GW. Fluffy yes, comic relief sure but never a serious threat. It’s a real shame.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m glad orks never change, we’re already back to being the off-meta it seems.
I can't help but feel the irony in comments like this while people claim this FAQ by GW was knee jerk.
I mean come on they nerf flyers 2 weeks after the last major tournament was won by an ork player who abused flyer bases… no other major tournament since had that issue since.
The Internet lost thier proverbial gak with numerous threads with titles like nerf orks, ork player wipes out 1800 pts first turn and game is to lethal…
Shortly followed by a rare almost never seen emergency rules update to nerf flyers oh and nerf orks… with the added bonus of moving up the admech and drukari point updates which was already planned months ago and printed in the CA book a little earlier…
But sure this wasn’t knee jerk reaction to orks winning at all…
Again...Admech flyers were a problem waaaay before Orks. Orks just got hit as a side-effect. The buggies were ALSO a problem and people should have been well aware of their capabilities by now.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.
Wait, Mek gunz? Do you mean with the switch to 9th or did I miss something with this FAQ?
I do get the feeling that Orks aren’t “supposed” to be competitive in the opinion of the community or GW. Fluffy yes, comic relief sure but never a serious threat. It’s a real shame.
We went from max 18 (something people ran) to max 9
Today is a time to be angry and complain, but we will be fine.
Delete the “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list is always good and this time it was our turn.
I just don' t like the “system” they use for this nerf. It makes a mess and it is stupid.
And it does not solve the problem.
The problem is, that we have no chance to score. So we need to delete enemy ASAP. So any kind of our succesfull list will be “if go first, kill everything” kind of the list and the story will be the same.
The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.
All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.
Dendarien wrote: The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.
All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.
The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.
Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.
Dendarien wrote: The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.
I'll just say i'm dying for the Tau, Astra, and Craftworld codexes to hit the table just to see people getting a seizure at how worse it will be.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’m glad orks never change, we’re already back to being the off-meta it seems.
I can't help but feel the irony in comments like this while people claim this FAQ by GW was knee jerk.
I mean come on they nerf flyers 2 weeks after the last major tournament was won by an ork player who abused flyer bases… no other major tournament since had that issue since.
The Internet lost thier proverbial gak with numerous threads with titles like nerf orks, ork player wipes out 1800 pts first turn and game is to lethal…
Shortly followed by a rare almost never seen emergency rules update to nerf flyers oh and nerf orks… with the added bonus of moving up the admech and drukari point updates which was already planned months ago and printed in the CA book a little earlier…
But sure this wasn’t knee jerk reaction to orks winning at all…
Again...Admech flyers were a problem waaaay before Orks. Orks just got hit as a side-effect. The buggies were ALSO a problem and people should have been well aware of their capabilities by now.
Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.
Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.
Dendarien wrote: The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.
All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.
The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.
Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.
GW just showed they are willing to touch data sheet rules and not just points with the changes to Necrons who already have a 9th book.
Dendarien wrote: The speedwaaagh freebooterz list had to go. The list was a joke with very room for player skill to shine through. No list should just show up at the table and say if I go first, the odds are overwhelmingly in my favor. It was non-interactive to the extreme between all of the indirect and flyers.
All of that said most of our melee tools are overpriced and we have very poor internal synergy in the form of command phase buffs, auras, and stratagems. I hope GW revisits that part of our book next year.
The freebooter speedwaagh went no where it’s just as strong if not stronger due to ad mech nerfs….
I mean the point hike in CA may kill it a bit but this nerf did little to address it.
Also orks aren’t being touched again rules wise til 10th Ed. Point adjustment here and there that’s it. 3 years minimum you are stuck with this. Considering the survey they just sent out said they are planning on the next edition now.
Stuck with this? Umm...ain't that kind of ironic since all this salt is due to book being changed before new book came. Lol. Gw just proved you wrong today,
Hey guys, do any of you remember what the list was like with the 3 Kill tanks and ghaz and goffs? I cant find it anywhere. Id like to do something similar but i need a reference point.
I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.
They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.
Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.
gungo wrote: Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.
Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.
So you think they suddenly and urgently released a regular quarterly update that only specifically targets buggies, because an Ork list with flyers, buggies, and freebootas won a tournament? Even my newborn can tell that's a gak diaper. Or something?
Did people suddenly get amnesia that Admech with planes caused a concession on turn 1 at the LGT a month ago?
Ork players need to stop thinking they're the only game in town. They released a quarterly update when they intended and added the Admech and DE point drops, because if they didn't people would freaking the feth out right now.
Daedalus81 wrote: Again...Admech flyers were a problem waaaay before Orks. Orks just got hit as a side-effect. The buggies were ALSO a problem and people should have been well aware of their capabilities by now.
The issue is not GW cracking down on obviously untended buggy spam. The issue is doing it the dumbest way possible.
GW explicitly introduced buggies as splitting squadrons to enable orks to play as many as they like, so people could run multiple with their limited FA slots. Then they go full surprise pikachu when people bring the best one 6-9 times and people use squadrons to get the most out of kustom jobs. With the new codex, they then tried to punish them for squadroning by removing the ability to split them up, force them to suffer from morale and ban people from using kustom jobs on big units. All to encourage running singles.
Except for the one buggy that sucked so badly that no one bought it outside of collectors, they buffed that one to the skies, broke their design paradigm of making indirect fire expensive in 9th and also let it keep one of the most powerful kustom jobs for good measure. Now that buggy was running rampant, and as a response to that they now force people to run ALL buggies in squadrons again.
None of that would be necessary if buggies weren't squadrons to begin with. Instead of cleaning up the mess they caused, we now just have dysfunktional pile of band-aids.
For feth's sake, if their vision for buggies is to have people run one of each buggy, write that into the gork-damned rules. Make it a buggy mob and make each buggy 0-1 and let them split up. Or do it like they did for the DG support characters, allowing any combination of 3 to sit in one slot. Or just make them singles, let the rule of 3 take care of it in fair way at all point levels. It's not like orks are hurting for CP to take outriders.
So yes, this is a complete knee-jerk. They killed off kustom jobs on five units to tackle one overpowered one. That's like nerfing every gravis unit in Codex:Space Marines because Eradicators are a problem.
gungo wrote: Again they already had admech points adjustment planned for next month. Nothing new from the last 6 months on admech flyers that entire time to have an emergency update except 1 tournament. After that ork win we get an emergency nerf 2 weeks later. I mean my toddler can follow this logic here.
Orks were the reason for this nerf. The side effect was releasing the already planned ad mech and drukari points changes earlier. In fact the only new nerfs were all ork related. No other army had nerfs that weren’t already planned. The entire emergency part was orks.
So you think they suddenly and urgently released a regular quarterly update that only specifically targets buggies, because an Ork list with flyers, buggies, and freebootas won a tournament? Even my newborn can tell that's a gak diaper. Or something?
Did people suddenly get amnesia that Admech with planes caused a concession on turn 1 at the LGT a month ago?
Ork players need to stop thinking they're the only game in town. They released a quarterly update when they intended and added the Admech and DE point drops, because if they didn't people would freaking the feth out right now.
So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?
Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.
Jidmah wrote: So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?
Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.
Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.
Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.
Afrodactyl wrote: I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.
They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.
Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.
Honestly I think all the wagons are decent currently, it's just that scrapjets nosedrilled their way a little further than the competition. Wargamers being wargamers, they then got spammed. I took 2 units of four because I loved em and have been taking them in a lotta lists since they were released. I'll probably be using my KBB to fill the same roll.
Jidmah wrote: So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?
Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.
Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.
Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.
Rukks are good under any kulture. Certainly they don't gain much from certain kultures, but they aren't "terrible" as you say.
I completely agree that this is a knee jerk reaction, because otherwise why nerf all of the buggies? Rukkatrukks and Scrapjets were the only ones that needed nerfing, and now the other buggies suffer.
I think they will repeal the buggy limit as soon as they work out the best way to nerf the main offenders without crippling the others. Otherwise it's a bit like nerfing Sentinels because Leman Russes are too good, and makes no sense whatsoever.
Afrodactyl wrote: I might actually dust off my shokkjump dragstas to replace some scrapjets.
They certainly aren't a bad unit in terms of firepower, probably not far from the scrapjets against armoured targets. They're really fast too, even without the deep strike shenanigans.
Or Snazzwagons for that matter. I certainly won't turn my nose up at lots of S5 AP-2 D2 shots.
Honestly I think all the wagons are decent currently, it's just that scrapjets nosedrilled their way a little further than the competition. Wargamers being wargamers, they then got spammed. I took 2 units of four because I loved em and have been taking them in a lotta lists since they were released. I'll probably be using my KBB to fill the same roll.
I agree, Scrapjets are just too good at everything. I settled on Snazzwagons in the end over SJDs, they full the gaps in my list a bit better.
I mean a simple buggy fix would have been limiting them to 3 buggies total irrespective of unit size. Which means you can squadron them or single unit size and use the kustom jobs they obviously intended us to use.
I mean this still doesn’t fix the squigbuggy is to strong combo.
Jidmah wrote: So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?
Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.
Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.
Do I think this is the best approach? No. I would have preferred that no LOS units got some sort of malus alongside some other small tweaks, but this change is good enough without actually hurting the unit itself at all.
Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.
Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.
*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.
Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.
*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.
The only point increase I can see them getting that makes them a bad choice under a kulture is one that makes the unit unplayable full stop. Like, making a rukkatrukk 200 points. Obviously this won't happen, and the rukkatrukk will remain to be good under basically every kulture. The only one that they don't gel with realistically is Evil Suns and that's generally because they don't really move around, and even then ES gives then the option to remain mobile while shooting at full capacity.
Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.
Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.
epronovost wrote: Something that cought my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.
It would have been better if they did something like buggies are 1 per unit, but they have the ability to squad up in deployment. That way you can be flexible in your unit selections without going overboard.
The squig buggies are good for triggering the freeboota trait honestly. If your opponent has anything reasonably squishy within range, out of LOS or not it's a prime target for the buggies.
epronovost wrote: Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.
Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.
Technically it’s harder to move 3 large base buggies in coherency. Ironically squigbuggies care the least about that.
Also there is some small issues w morale w 3 in list where you can roll poorly and losing the last buggy in a squad
There is also no more forcing your opponent to waste shots over killing a unit of 1.
Finally they made kustom jobs useless unless you only take 1 buggy. The vast majority of kustom jobs weren’t good enough even less so now.
The above issues nerf even the least useful buggy but overall they don’t do much but make list building annoying and convoluted.
epronovost wrote: Something that caught my attention and don't really get? Why do some say that buggies beside rukkatrukk squigbuggies and scrapjets have been nerfed? They haven't touched their rules or point cost yet, only limited the number of squadron you can take of each type of buggies to one. It's a ''problem'' for those that were spammed, but the others were not really spammed in such a way and some were rarely if ever taken despite the fact they were all at least fairly efficient units. It might be more of a problems for people who bought a whole lot of buggies of the same type in matched play (at least until next edition) though having a large collection assembled over years and several edition I don't view that as a big problem.
Personally, I don't see those changes as particularly huge nerfs. They can be annoying to those who spammed heavily a few overtuned units though these were bound to be quickly plugged exploits due to their nature. I still think you can make excellent speed freak lists that will be able to compete at high level and the Alpha Strike list is completely intact.
The only buggy unit that could reasonably be run in units of 3 were squigbuggies, because they didn't need to move and get around terrain or other models - they sat and plunked shots around the board with a comfortable range of 36", and maybe shuffled a bit every so often. Every other buggy wants to move, and driving those huge bases around in groups of more than 2 is difficult to play around. But these vehicles are cheap, and you're likely to want more than just 1-2, but now the only way to do that is to field them in an immovable clump. Before, you could have had 3 separate units of 1, or a unit of 1 and a unit of 2. You can't do that anymore, so it's a nerf.
Still not convinced? Here's one particular example that's very obviously a nerf: Shokkjump Dragstas cannot conceivably teleport 2-3 of those bases and remain outside 9" of any enemy units unless the board is basically already clear, or you're teleporting into your own deployment zone where there are no enemy units. Easy enough work around was to take as many as you wanted as a single model unit, but now you can't. What do you tell people who owned even a single extra Dragsta? Sure, they can still drive them around as a unit of 2 as previously mentioned, but it's ruined one of their main utilities and just reduces them to "backup Skrapjets".
Dude You have no idea what your talking about rukks are good in every klan and list… it’s the ONLY indirect fire ork unit. I mean rukks don’t even really benefit a lot from freebooter it’s main gun already has +1 to hit.
*IF* they took a point hit that made them palatable under Freebootas THEN they would be bad under other kultures. I never said they were bad now, but they definitely benefit most in FB.
You seem to have missed the point the main gun… the reason people take squigbuggies doesn’t even work with freebooter kultur. It already has a nonstackable +1 to hit on the main gun. I mean the best kultur for squigbuggies is really bloodaxe cause they can fall back and shoot. And it’s largely considered the worst all around kultur but only okay cause buggies are good.
Jidmah wrote: So, tell me one good reason why the KBB needed to be nerfed in this "regular quarterly update"? Or the snazzwagon? Or the SJD?
Can't? I guess that's because it was a kneejerk reaction.
Because raising the points on Rukks just makes them terrible under other kultures.
Because limiting just Rukks and Scraps isn't a consistent ruling.
*sigh*
This is the ork tactics thread, and you should adhere to its rules. Which includes not making up facts. Multiple clans besides freebootas, including deff skulls, evils suns, bloodaxes and bad moons have had top 10 placements in the last weeks with an overabundance of squigbuggies.
Freebootas are not part of the problem, and the ruin DID make buggies terrible for all cultures. Or in other words, you're flat out wrong.
And about that "consistent ruling", so you do agree that every single power armor unit should be nerfed if any single one of them is too good, correct?
Madjob wrote: The only buggy unit that could reasonably be run in units of 3 were squigbuggies, because they didn't need to move and get around terrain or other models - they sat and plunked shots around the board with a comfortable range of 36", and maybe shuffled a bit every so often. Every other buggy wants to move, and driving those huge bases around in groups of more than 2 is difficult to play around. But these vehicles are cheap, and you're likely to want more than just 1-2, but now the only way to do that is to field them in an immovable clump. Before, you could have had 3 separate units of 1, or a unit of 1 and a unit of 2. You can't do that anymore, so it's a nerf.
That's a good point, I tend to play smaller games than the 2000 pts usual so traffic jam isn't such a big problem, but I must admit that squadrons are problematic for mobility purpose. A more refined rule could have been max 3 buggies of each type (either 1 group of 3 or three groups of 1) if you wanted to avoid spam. It brings almost the same result, but leaves a little bit more flexibility in army design.
. All those aforementioned units (trukks, grots, boyz) already see competitive gaming 
. I wanted the dakkajet initially but the wazboom looks so good i am melting...
