Punishment for 2nd edition allowing them to have Cyclone Missile Launchers AND Assault Cannons?
Seriously, no clue. It's GW. Everything they do is random, unless it's for generic Space Marines/Ultramarines who get a bunch of stuff because they're the most likely army that 12-year old Timmy has.
bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
This is untrue.
They could release an edition with all the codices updated at the same time, then spend the next four years working on a new edition/tweaking the current one while simultaneously working on all the codices so that all of them are designed with the upcoming edition in time.
They just choose a different release schedule/method. Personally, I'm not a fan.
As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.
Space Wolves still hold up well compared to other armies, grey hunters and long fangs give you a great base to work from still. TBH I thought the guard dex was in more need of updating, and the CSM 'dex which is 6th ed is definitely in more need of it as it's trashy. Not saying SW shouldn't get an update - they should. But Blood Angels and Sisters especially should get it first.
It's not ideal, but you can always use the vanilla codex to play your wolves if current wolves aren't doing it for you, or better yet mix vanilla + wolves in one army.
With GW its always 1 step forward 2 steps back. In the same tune, wolves got updated from 2 or 3rd to 5th, then got screwed by rules overhaul in 6th and again in 7th.
bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.
The Space Wolves individuality is what makes them so much more interesting than vanilla marines. Losing their own codex would be worse than it never being updated.
You share this distinction with Necrons, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights. Do not worry, my wolfy wolf friend, your book will be wolfed in time.
bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.
The Space Wolves individuality is what makes them so much more interesting than vanilla marines. Losing their own codex would be worse than it never being updated.
I play wolves and marines in general, i would not give a damn if they rolled them all into 1 codex, if that meant more consistent chapter updates.
The Space Wolves individuality is what makes them so much more interesting than vanilla marines. Losing their own codex would be worse than it never being updated.
Debatable. Much of their book is just name changes, and most of the supposedly unique units have incredibly similar if not nearly identical counterparts in the vanilla book. There's no reason why Long Fangs couldn't just be ordinary devs with a different name, or why Grey Hunters can't just be Tac squads with a slightly different weapon loadout (arguably one that all other marines could have access to for DIY chapters and such).
Properly done, rolling them in would preserve their flavour, add options for all other possible chapters, make it cheaper to own multiple marine armies, have a single book to reference all marine wargear/items, and is easier to balance and update, instead of having to worry about 4+ power armour books.
I wouldn't call them neglected. They re still going strong. I mean look at it this way, I hate space wolves, but would rather use their codex for my Khorne army than the chaos marine book.
Ignatius wrote: I wouldn't call them neglected. They re still going strong. I mean look at it this way, I hate space wolves, but would rather use their codex for my Khorne army than the chaos marine book.
Despite the fact that I think Space Wolves don't deserve their own Codex on principle I'd hate for them to get the Codex+Supplement treatment or the Codex treatment. If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules. A big loss for the end consumer. If you roll them into the main marine book you bloat the thing with more unnecessary page length fluff pieces (Which I think are filler), HD miniature galleries and the pertinent rule sections. This will undoubtedly bump up the price of the book and make it bigger. You make Vanilla marine players and Space Wolf players pay more for rules they don't want. Another loss for the consumer.
The current Codex system is the best choice for the customer because of GW's insane pricing. Trying to roll it has no real benefit outside of the principle of not giving Marines more codices.
bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.
The Space Wolves individuality is what makes them so much more interesting than vanilla marines. Losing their own codex would be worse than it never being updated.
I play wolves and marines in general, i would not give a damn if they rolled them all into 1 codex, if that meant more consistent chapter updates.
This. The way I build the army and the way I push it around the table is plenty defining for me, whether I use the Wolves book or play them as White Scars. I'd much rather have seen the BA, DA, and Wolves get the Black Templar treatment.
Instead, we've got a 4 year old codex with a mono build centered around the only decent thing in the army book.
TheCustomLime wrote: . If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..
There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.
There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.
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bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
They've updated everybody all at once twice before.
TheCustomLime wrote: . If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..
There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.
There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.
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bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
They've updated everybody all at once twice before.
They simply choose to not do so now.
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you. On principle. It's just that I think that given GW's bottomless capacity for greed that they'll stiff the Wolf/Angels players if they roll the codices into one.
TheCustomLime wrote: . If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..
There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.
There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.
I agree wholeheartedly. Not only is there not enough differences to justify the entire book for a separate chapter, by combining them and then giving customization options to make your own chapter, space marines would be a much more awesome faction overall.
It also nicely does away with the whole 'x book gets an update which adds new stuff that the other chapters don't get access to for another 4 years' thing.
At this point rolling them in to the Marine codex would be bad. It could have been done in 3rd edition with no great loss (if it was written properly), but now SW have 8 special characters, 2 entirely unique units (Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry) and also a few units that are somewhat unique (Scouts, Wolf Guard, Wolf Priests, Blood Claws).
You either keep those things and bloat the vanilla Marine book or you drop them and dropping things is never a great option.
If the rumours are to be believed we should expect a codex update this summer, which as you say is needed. I still enjoy playing them and the fluff is always some of the best.
I was hoping for some updated models or new ones but I think as it stands just the codex, but I will take that.
If you look at the new codexes that have come out SW should get something similar.
Random Dude wrote: I love Space Wolves. They have some of the best back story of any army in the game, but GW never fails to neglect them. Currently they are still using a 5th edition codex which has really limited my enjoyment in playing them. Does GW have good reasons for focusing heavily on a few armies to the exclusion of others?
They're not neglected. Practically every release they've had has seen them at the top of the game until an edition change, and they're on the slate for this year supposedly, they're right about where they should be in the release cycle.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: At this point rolling them in to the Marine codex would be bad. It could have been done in 3rd edition with no great loss (if it was written properly), but now SW have 8 special characters, 2 entirely unique units (Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry) and also a few units that are somewhat unique (Scouts, Wolf Guard, Wolf Priests, Blood Claws).
You either keep those things and bloat the vanilla Marine book or you drop them and dropping things is never a great option.
You'd add maybe 3-4 pages for their rules, 10 pages total tops if you included fluff and pictures. Given that you're already paying $50 for a book that's less than half the size of most other $50 tabletop gaming books, not the end of the world.
TheCustomLime wrote: You share this distinction with Necrons, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights. Do not worry, my wolfy wolf friend, your book will be wolfed in time.
To be exact - Necrons and Grey Knight have a 6th edition codex. Yes, it was released before the 6th edition, but the rules were designed for the 6, not the 5.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: At this point rolling them in to the Marine codex would be bad. It could have been done in 3rd edition with no great loss (if it was written properly), but now SW have 8 special characters, 2 entirely unique units (Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry) and also a few units that are somewhat unique (Scouts, Wolf Guard, Wolf Priests, Blood Claws).
You either keep those things and bloat the vanilla Marine book or you drop them and dropping things is never a great option.
You'd add maybe 3-4 pages for their rules, 10 pages total tops if you included fluff and pictures. Given that you're already paying $50 for a book that's less than half the size of most other $50 tabletop gaming books, not the end of the world.
8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.
And then once you add that additional content do you really think GW are going to be charging the same price for the big book of Space Marine? Once you throw in BA and DA, along with a couple of pages of fluff on each one, their special characters, their unique units and rules... GW would have a book they want to charge you much more than $50... especially considering even the current SM book is $58.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: 8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.
Except the unique and 'somewhat unique' units would be covered by the trait system in my ideal book (A trait covering an affinity with beast that would allow beast packs and cavalry - potentially in exchange for being allowed to use flyers, perhaps, a trait upgrading scouts to veterans, and a trait allowing units to take close combat weapons along with their bolters and pistols, and the current Space Wolf list is mostly covered).
So it's only really the special characters that need specific space in the book... and they can be done with half a page each, with a Space Wolf fluff book released alongside the codex for those who are interested in reading more than the resultant blurb that would accompany the character entry.
Don't feel bad about the Wolves. My friend stuck w/ Sisters for years. They just got worse and worse treatment. It is sad tho so many people wanted to play sisters but their new update was a White Dwarf Codex that made them worse and then a digital codex that was even worse and took choices away.
I'd dearly love for fluff to be separated from rules, then yeah a nice comprehensive trait selection mechanic would be great. Won't happen... you'd almost ask a moderator to help you organise a bunch of level headed forum members to... who am I kidding, ain't no one got time fo' dat ; p
The space wolf rules would easily fit on 10 pages. It's the fluff sections that would take up a lot of space - ie. the 1 page per character in the codex. The new Ork codex merged the 2 sections which is both good and bad. 1 unit per page of the rules is worse to compare at a glance different units, but you don't have to skip over the advertising to check between sections.
The Black Templars were merged into the SM codex without much problem. Even if the Sm codex grows by 30-50 pages, it would be so much better to have all of the space marines in one large, well done book. I'd even be content paying a fair bit for it. Or even better, 2 separate books, perhaps in a cover, 1 rules, 1 fluff.
Yonan wrote: I'd even be content paying a fair bit for it.
I wouldn't. Even if all SM chapters were done at the same time but separate light weight books it wouldn't bother me, but I don't really want to buy The Big Book Of Space Marine. Similar to how I don't really like buying dual kits when I can really only make 1 variant (sometimes you can magnetise sometimes it's just a pain in the arse and you feel like you're paying 1.5 times the price to get the option of 2 units but can only actually make 1 of them. I feel like an expensive SM book would just be a bunch of superfluous stuff.
Or even better, 2 separate books, perhaps in a cover, 1 rules, 1 fluff.
I could see GW selling 2 books in a pack, and charging 75% more than a single book with the same combined number of pages. I couldn't see them selling 2 books separately, why charge $40 for fluff and $40 for rules when you can just charge $80 for both in a single package regardless of whether the customer actually wants both?
Personally I reckon the core SM book should do its best to flesh out the lesser known chapters which are more easily captured by a few simple traits and leave the more unique chapters to their own books, even if they're smaller books or maybe released all at once.
Look on the bright side, when they do get updated (soon) at least the book will be a GOOD update. Not some BS update like Chaos or Tyranids that makes your army worse!
BlaxicanX wrote: Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.
BlaxicanX wrote: Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.
I see you did not play 6th edition.
They were still mid-tier, they were above CSM for christ's sakes in the tournament charts!
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ]8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.
Their rules and a small fluff blurb certainly do. It's only when you add pictures and whatnot that it gets bloated. And again, even if you do, 10-12 pages would be enough.
And then once you add that additional content do you really think GW are going to be charging the same price for the big book of Space Marine?
They already charged more for the SM book once (the 5E book was $3-5 more than other books at its release), and honestly, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway (codex books just 7 years ago were $20) or hit a plateau where people just won't pay that much for a simple faction book. Get more bang for your buck.
Once you throw in BA and DA, along with a couple of pages of fluff on each one, their special characters, their unique units and rules... GW would have a book they want to charge you much more than $50... especially considering even the current SM book is $58.
Again, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway, or realize they've hit a plateau. Either way, since when should book cost factor in as a design consideration?
Especially since you're already paying $58 for a book with half the content as a $50 book from say, Battlefront or Fantasy Flight Games.
TheCustomLime wrote: . If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..
There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.
There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.
TheCustomLime wrote: . If you roll them into the marine book and put all of their flavor units in a supplement then you are making Space Wolf players pay twice for the same amount of rules..
There is no need for their flavour units to be in a separate publication.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player, I would rather see all of the Marine Chapters rolled into one book with an updated version of the Chapter Traits system from 4th edition, allowing you to use pre-set traits to create the 'name' Chapters, or custom trait combinations for your own Chapter.
There is absolutely no need for Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels to all have their own books.
While that would be really cool, I'm not sure how likely that is given GW's current direction. BA and DA are especially confusing considering that BT got rolled into the main book. If anything they had greater differences to be explored, but as you say not so great that they couldn't be in the one book. Just one page for each chapters special units like Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Deathwing, Thunderwolves etc etc.
Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!
generalchaos34 wrote: Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!
The talisman is a 5+ invul against psychic powers for the Rune Priest's unit. So you can reliably protect only 2 squads in your army.
generalchaos34 wrote: Have you played against wolfs lately as a psyker army? I recently witnessed a very interesting and fun Purifier squad list get completely wrecked by space wolves and their wolf tail talismans. The GK player had over 20 warp charge dice and they other guy had at most 8 and not a single instance of cleansing flame was cast the entire game by over 6 sqauds + crowe. FIVE TURNS. thats not bad luck for him rolling the dice, thats pure anti-psyker cheddar from Wolves. That kind of anti-psyker resilience i would expect from Templar or even sisters, but not from space wolves. People complain about not getting a 4+ bubble but that is also pretty darn ridiculous no matter how you cut it!
The talisman is a 5+ invul against psychic powers for the Rune Priest's unit. So you can reliably protect only 2 squads in your army.
Therein lies the problem with nova powers i guess, no matter what he was hitting one of those 2 units
Davor wrote: Was the OP crying by chance when Space Wolves were the hey day back in 5th?
There were plenty of complaints from long term Space Wolf players during 5th edition about people just assuming that they were playing Space Wolves because they were an over-the-top-tier army, yes.
Having a codex that is too powerful is ultimately no better for the game than having one that is too under-powered.
The main reason that the Wolves seem neglected is that it is now post 2010. Before this decade started we got a new codex, new models, a very compatible rule set, several Black Library novels, and a few other gibs and gobs thrown in. It was a very good time to be a SW fan.
However, all of that attention helped spur on a lot of early hate and for some reason its still currently strongly felt by a select vocal few (I'd argue its currently unjustified).
SW need to just wait their turn in the scheme of GW releases. Their day will come eventually just like BA, DE, Etc.
bodazoka wrote: They are doing every army, it is just impossible to do them all at once.
This is untrue.
They could release an edition with all the codices updated at the same time, then spend the next four years working on a new edition/tweaking the current one while simultaneously working on all the codices so that all of them are designed with the upcoming edition in time.
They just choose a different release schedule/method. Personally, I'm not a fan.
As for the Wolves, I've always been an advocate of rolling them into a big book of marines anyways, that way they'd get updated quicker and free up more release slots/time for other armies.
Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ]8 special characters, 2 unique units and 4 somewhat unique units doesn't fit on 3-4 pages. You'd either be removing stuff or bloating the book.
Their rules and a small fluff blurb certainly do. It's only when you add pictures and whatnot that it gets bloated. And again, even if you do, 10-12 pages would be enough.
Unless GW change their format, not really. Even Salamanders consume 6 pages of fluff/pictures, 1 page for a special character, 2 pages for pictures of models. Using their 6th edition format, I'd be guessing 6+ pages for fluff/pictures, 4+ pages for special characters, 2-4 pages for the unique and semi-unique units, 2 or so pages for the extra army list entries, 4 or so pages for the pictures of models (remembering Space Wolves do have a bunch of unique models.
So I'm counting close to 20 pages unless you really want to cut back on things, which is never going to make players happy.
As someone mentioned previously, yeah, you could do separate fluff/rule books, but I don't see any way that would end well for the consumer knowing GW's typical pricings.
And then once you add that additional content do you really think GW are going to be charging the same price for the big book of Space Marine?
They already charged more for the SM book once (the 5E book was $3-5 more than other books at its release), and honestly, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway (codex books just 7 years ago were $20) or hit a plateau where people just won't pay that much for a simple faction book. Get more bang for your buck.
Once you throw in BA and DA, along with a couple of pages of fluff on each one, their special characters, their unique units and rules... GW would have a book they want to charge you much more than $50... especially considering even the current SM book is $58.
Again, they're either eventually going to charge more anyway, or realize they've hit a plateau. Either way, since when should book cost factor in as a design consideration?
Especially since you're already paying $58 for a book with half the content as a $50 book from say, Battlefront or Fantasy Flight Games.
I personally think you underestimate just how much GW are willing to charge for stuff. Granted, I don't see them charging much over $65-70, but I don't really want to pay that much for a single SM book when I'd rather have a properly fleshed out SW book for $50 (or ideally less but the pricing ship has already sailed on 104 page codices being $50).
Personally I think it's something that should have been done in 3rd edition if it was going to be done at all. I'm not keen on having to buy more expensive books and/or more books to just play a single Marine chapter and I don't particularly want to collect multiple chapters.
BlaxicanX wrote: Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.
I see you did not play 6th edition.
I see you've never played Space Wolves.
Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.
Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.
No, it isn't, because you're thinking like GW and not a smart miniature company.
There's more to a miniature company than a single game and a single facet to that game.
There's no reason each edition couldn't be accompanied by a fully updated set of codices, and then spending the next four doing two things. The first would be working on the next edition, tweaking the current one as more data comes in, and otherwise addressing issues that crop up with timely FAQs. The second is releasing smaller additions to the game or releasing entirely different games. This game could be sustained by added expansions, campaign books, and small release waves of new units for every faction. Add in the ability to do something with Specialist games, fantasy, and helping out with their license in other areas, and the company and the game would be much better.
Other game companies manage to release/update their faction books all in one go with each new edition. Why can't GW? Stop thinking like them and start thinking like a modern wargaming company.
Fail to see how they are neglected when they were top dog in 5th and gained access to allies and such during 6th and now 7th. In the end they are space marines and will always have solid rules and model support while other factions like sisters don't even have plastic troops or missing most of their special characters like Dark Eldar.
bodazoka wrote: Release everything at once and then nothing for 4 years.. that is a terrible idea! terrible.
That would indeed be a terrible idea.
Releasing all of the rules at once so that everyone is on a level playing field, and then spending the next 4 or 5 years updating old models, filling in gaps in the model range, and releasing expansion and campaign material (you know, the narrative stuff ), however, would be an awesome thing.
Yonan wrote: The Black Templars were merged into the SM codex without much problem.
It's the worst Chapter Tactics in C:SM, we lost Vows and Righteous Zeal, all our Special Characters are bad and the only reason to play Chapter Tactics: Black Templars over one of the others is because you want to play Black Templars. No problems indeed.
Random Dude wrote: I love Space Wolves. They have some of the best back story of any army in the game, but GW never fails to neglect them. Currently they are still using a 5th edition codex which has really limited my enjoyment in playing them. Does GW have good reasons for focusing heavily on a few armies to the exclusion of others?
You're lucky you still have your own Space Wolves codex.
Blacksails wrote: Other game companies manage to release/update their faction books all in one go with each new edition. Why can't GW? Stop thinking like them and start thinking like a modern wargaming company.
To be fair, are there any other games that actually have as many factions and units for those factions as 40k?
That said, I agree they should aim to release all the rules at once, even if it's just in one big giant book with little to no fluff which they update with more fleshed out codices as time goes on.
Jayden63 wrote: The main reason that the Wolves seem neglected is that it is now post 2010. Before this decade started we got a new codex, new models, a very compatible rule set, several Black Library novels, and a few other gibs and gobs thrown in. It was a very good time to be a SW fan.
However, all of that attention helped spur on a lot of early hate and for some reason its still currently strongly felt by a select vocal few (I'd argue its currently unjustified).
SW need to just wait their turn in the scheme of GW releases. Their day will come eventually just like BA, DE, Etc.
You mean besides the fact that they've usually been SM + 1 since 2nd edition? Better then the rest point per point, not to mention the terrible fluff, constant mary sue characters, the fact that they are justified as heroes and anti-heroes but are still better in everything..
I'd argue its very, very justified, if people think Ultramarines are constantly praised they should view wolves.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To be fair, are there any other games that actually have as many factions and units for those factions as 40k?
I've never put much stock in any argument that the size of 40k's unit/faction selection makes it that much more difficult. Consider that 6 books are all power armour variant forces, with three of them being nearly identical save a few bits of wargear and some characters, I'd argue that other games have at least a comparable number of total things to balance and work out.
Further, the number of units/factions wouldn't take any considerable amount of time longer to balance/release when you have a 4 year span to figure it out. The difference between balancing 8 and 12 factions starts to become meaningless over that much of a time span for a company that invests the money and effort into balancing and cooperating with the player base/dedicated beta test group.
I mean, sure, 40k has a lot of 'codices' or 'factions', but a few of them now are single unit books, like Knights. Poor Sisters are still left out in the rain, and the BT finally got axed, which leaves us with 14 books/factions (including Sisters). Of those, 4 are Imperial Marines of some flavour, with Grey Knights being similar but not quite. Then you have Chaos Space Marines, which also share much of the basic concept and balance factors, which truly leaves you with 8 entirely distinct books.
I'm not an expert on other games, but speaking of Firestorm which I'm well acquainted with has 6 core factions and an allied book which has another 11 distinct (but smaller) factions. That game is infinitely better balanced and had updated all of the core factions at the release of the new edition, and the allies were released a month later. Admittedly, each faction has less in the way of unit entries, but making each faction play very differently, yet balanced, is the hardest part, not just being able to add in extra units that fill similar roles/functions.
So I don't think the argument about having a lot of factions stands up as an excuse for long release times. I think it boils down to a combination of their intended way of doing things (because its how they've always done it) and their general incompetence when it comes to rules and balance.
IMO Space Wolves aren't similar at all to Vanilla marines. They are rebels. They fight their own way and completely ignore the Codex Astartes. They also shun new technologies while using unique units like thunderwolf cavalry. The idea that they don't deserve their own codex makes no sense to me. I guess that's just a personal bias of mine.
Random Dude wrote: They fight their own way and completely ignore the Codex Astartes.
By the fluff, sure.
By the way the codex works, not really.
Long Fangs are devs. Grey Hunters are Tacs. Sky Claws are Assault Marines. Bikes are bikes. Tanks are tanks. Elite terminators are elite terminators.
Really, the important differences are the Wolf Guard splitting thing, the veteran scouts and novice assault marines (though if scouts were WS/BS 4 it wouldn't matter at all) and the fetish for wolves and riding them.
But really, they could be rolled in with a chapter tactic, a unique unit for the thunderwolf cavalry, and a few characters with some additional rules/benefits/changes. Nothing in their codex is so distinct that it doesn't have a nearly identical unit in the base codex. Much of it are some name changes and incredibly minor wargear differences that exist only to create a reason for them to exist.
There'd be nothing stopping Wolves players from calling their power swords 'Frost Swords', or their Terminators as 'Wolf Guard', or their Tac squads as 'Grey Hunters'. Salamander players make do with their Firedrakes represented by ordinary terminators, despite being a legendary aspect of the chapter.
A lot of players get caught up on the tiny details with determining how unique or distinct a chapter is. Having access to frost weapons, or having one more heavy weapon in your dev squad isn't what defines the flavour of the Wolves. Playing a certain style of army with a particular paint job and referring to your units by whatever they're called in the fluff is what makes them what they are. Worrying about losing the identity of your chapter by losing a special weapon slot on your tac squads is missing the forest for the trees.
There are countless marine armies that have no published rules. These armies are still lovingly built, painted, modified and played with using one of the marine books and building their force to represent how they would fight by the fluff. Some might craft some homebrews for legendary heroes, or a particularly unique unit that helps define their chapter. But the way a marine army differs from another is not based on the small differences in wargear or unit composition. Its a multitude of factors that are far more important than having a slightly different kind of power sword.
In short, a well done marine book for all loyalist marines (and another for all chaos/renegads) would provide all marine players with an easy to access, all inclusive book with options for everyone to make any chapter conceivable, while not sacrificing the basic defining elements of each main chapter we all know and love.
BlaxicanX wrote: Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.
I see you did not play 6th edition.
I see you've never played Space Wolves.
Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.
Yet they remained mid tier at best, you need a few more games under your belt son.
Otto Weston wrote: Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks
This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"
In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.
Otto Weston wrote: Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks
This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"
In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.
Fenris has been attacked by many factions, even the Grey Knights and Inquisition. Logan Grimnar personally decapitated the inquisitor in charge of the attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus if you're a heretic you deserve everything they can give you.
Otto Weston wrote: Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks
This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"
In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.
Fenris has been attacked by many factions, even the Grey Knights and Inquisition. Logan Grimnar personally decapitated the inquisitor in charge of the attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus if you're a heretic you deserve everything they can give you.
Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.
Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.
Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).
On top of that, the Wolves once had the possibility of seeding multiple Foundings and establishing a realm like Ultramar, and lost that potential. They are one Chapter with no successful Second or subsequent Foundings. The brotherhood and support available to Ultramarines, Blood Angels, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or heck, even Dark Angels, isn't available to them.
I mean, I really like the Wolves, and I think that they are cool, but I don't see them as being presented as 'too cool to fail'. Well, not any more than any other Space Marines in their own novels. Uriel Ventris kicks ten kinds of ass in his own book, and so do the Iron Snakes, etc.
Honestly, considering the attention that they got last time (Thunderwolves? ), I'm hoping for some benevolent neglect. If the only thing that GW can think of for the Sons of Russ is "Wolfy McWolverson riding a wolf", I can wait for attention. The wolves of Fenris were supposed to be insanely dangerous, and "tamed" by only a few. There's suggestions that those wolves are in fact, genetically devolved Space Wolves, in several of the novels. So, you take your monstrously deformed former brother, saddle him, and ride him into battle--that seems respectful.
The Salamanders don't ride Salamanders into battle. The Blood Angels don't ride vampire bats. The Raven Guard don't ride giant ravens. But the Space Wolves...sigh.*
*Having said that, the models are incredible sculpts and really gorgeous. Plus, they are very powerful. I totally understand why people buy them and use them, but I still wish I could have prevented that whole release.
As a SOB player, I find this thread amusing.
Would you rather keep your current codex or get a 'Nid style dex that takes away a lot of your options and doesn't address any of its needs?
Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).
Yes, epic-level plot armour. Because somehow, it has survived all that, despite only having a single defensible position on the entire planet.
Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).
Yes, epic-level plot armour. Because somehow, it has survived all that, despite only having a single defensible position on the entire planet.
I love Space Wolves, but even I have to side with the Plot Armor side.
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of mankind." - Patton.
What's most impressive is that even unprepared (one company guarding a planet) they managed to fight off a massive thousand sons fleet designed for the sole purpose of destroying fenris. Then there's the whole deal where Bjorn the Fell-Handed took out Magnus.
Fenris being one of the few planets with epic level plot armor considering all things.
On top of that, the Wolves once had the possibility of seeding multiple Foundings and establishing a realm like Ultramar, and lost that potential. They are one Chapter with no successful Second or subsequent Foundings. The brotherhood and support available to Ultramarines, Blood Angels, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or heck, even Dark Angels, isn't available to them.
.
Since they split only once, their chapter is in the 5000-6000 range which is far more powerful than the standard 1000.
Since they split only once, their chapter is in the 5000-6000 range which is far more powerful than the standard 1000.
Not even close, their numbers are more closer to 1500 as listed by the Great Companies in the 5th edition book. (The second largest company is near 200, so it's easier to gauge where their numbers are at)
Epic level plot armor? It's been invaded multiple times (and not by innumerable tyranids but by Traitor Marines and Traitor Guard and the regular fething IG). The 'unassailable' Fang has been breached at least twice and almost fell. The Wolves have been caught unawares and unprepared. Heck, even in the old Ragnar Blackmane novels the Thousand Sons show up on Fenris again! At least when Prospero was invaded, the Thousand Sons were handicapped by Magnus's initial malaise (having wrecked the Emperor's plans with his sorcery, unintentionally will do that).
As mentioned by the others, it pretty much survived what would kill Several Sectors, including several thousand of SoB, IG, Inquisition, and the like.
And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.
Space Wolves have plot armor that no other group can match.
Yeah, SW have strange plot armour for some reason, as someone who likes SW I don't really like that aspect of them. They are also good guys in a game that has no good guys which I think annoys a lot of people. It doesn't really bother me that they're the good guys, but they possibly weren't the best chapter to fill that role.
I like Space Wolves because the norse background, the wolves and also that they don't fit the typical hyper-religious Imperial thing. Though I don't like the stupid over the top Wolf things (like TWC and how everything is wolfy mc wolf wolf).
BlaxicanX wrote: Neglected? Even as a 5th edition codex, Space Wolves were a sick codice up until the 7th edition FAQ's, which were released just a few weeks ago.
I see you did not play 6th edition.
I see you've never played Space Wolves.
Space Wolves had arguably the best libarian in the game, the best psychic defense in the game and still have have the best tactical squad in the game.
Yet they remained mid tier at best, you need a few more games under your belt son.
Mid-tier!?!?! Whaaat? Games Workshop must really hate them if they were mid-tier in 6th edition! Why, that's the tier that contains:
Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Grey Knights, Orks- nearly every army in the game! ClearlyGW has been neglecting Space Wolves.
You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.
To be fair, that depends a lot on how tough you think Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs "really" are. In GW's original fluff, Horus almost got shot by some random infantryman, and their TT Angron is killable by anyone, too. Maybe that SW just rolled well got lucky?
It's the first time I'm hearing about this, so if anyone would be willing to fill me in on the details of that incident ...
Agreed about all the invasions, though. Though what bothers me more than the resilience of the Fang is that all the internal conflict doesn't really seem to have any consequences - it's as if the plot armour extends to politics, too.
[quote=
It's the first time I'm hearing about this, so if anyone would be willing to fill me in on the details of that incident ... You could read The Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight.
.
BlaxicanX wrote: You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.
Pick one.
Wait, you can't be mid tier and neglected? Isn't half the problem with SW in 6th that they weren't terribly well balanced because of how they were neglected and their rules not brought in line with the new edition, creating some overpowered units alongside some pretty sub-par units?
BlaxicanX wrote: You either don't know what "mid-tier" means, or you don't know what "neglected" means.
Pick one.
Wait, you can't be mid tier and neglected? Isn't half the problem with SW in 6th that they weren't terribly well balanced because of how they were neglected and their rules not brought in line with the new edition, creating some overpowered units alongside some pretty sub-par units?
If you want to see an example of a "neglected codex", look no further than the Blood Angels and Sisters of Battle, and the Black Templars (before and after getting rolled into SM). Those are obviously "neglected" codices. Space Wolves were one of the best codices during its release, and then took a down-shift in power level to mid-tier during 6th, placing it within the same bank as 80% of all the other codices. Even as a mere "mid-tier" codex, though, it still boasted thee best psychic defense in the game and has the best default troops choice out of all the Space Marine armies. That is not the definition of a "neglected" codex.
The problems with Space Wolves is a result of edition changes (which most codices suffer from eventually) and many Space Marine units just being trash. Look at the vanilla SM codex. It's considered by many to be one of the better made codices of 6th (insofar as balance if not power-level), but what competitive units did it have in 6th? People take Chapter master beatsticks or Tigurius, minimal troops or bikes and centurions. That's about it.
"A few great things among a sea of crap" isn't a Space Wolf problem, it's a Space Marine problem (including Chaos Marines), and it has been for a long time.
Random Dude wrote: Looking at recent army winning percentage charts for 7th both Space Marines and Tyranids have made large jumps.
What I'm hoping for is that 7th edition's (seeming) emphasis on troops will revitalize the armies. Space Marines having gak troops has long been a thorn in their side, but being able to have potentially twelve objective-secured units on the table and objective-secured drop-pods is quite a boon for scoring objective points.
Tyranids are in a similar boat. They can take a ton o' troops. Now that might actually be worth while.
If you want to see an example of a "neglected codex", look no further than the Blood Angels and Sisters of Battle, and the Black Templars (before and after getting rolled into SM). Those are obviously "neglected" codices. Space Wolves were one of the best codices during its release, and then took a down-shift in power level to mid-tier during 6th, placing it within the same bank as 80% of all the other codices. Even as a mere "mid-tier" codex, though, it still boasted thee best psychic defense in the game and has the best default troops choice out of all the Space Marine armies. That is not the definition of a "neglected" codex.
BA and GK were released after the SW, and I'd argue that for the rule set that they were released in both were better than SW. Both armies were just as brutal and just as over powered as anything SW had to offer. GK even remained so during 6th.
The problems with Space Wolves is a result of edition changes (which most codices suffer from eventually) and many Space Marine units just being trash. Look at the vanilla SM codex. It's considered by many to be one of the better made codices of 6th (insofar as balance if not power-level), but what competitive units did it have in 6th? People take Chapter master beatsticks or Tigurius, minimal troops or bikes and centurions. That's about it.
"A few great things among a sea of crap" isn't a Space Wolf problem, it's a Space Marine problem (including Chaos Marines), and it has been for a long time.
This about sums it all up. 6th and 7th edition have done a huge disservice on melee type armies and add into the ability for some of the newer codexs to just make 3+ armor saves look like 6+ and you have the crux of the SW/SM/BA problem.
As for SW plot armor, yup, we have it in spades. However, has anyone actually read the new SM fluff. All astarties have gigantic amounts of plot armor. Each chapter has been granted with stupidly high levels of accomplishment and moxie. The vast majority of it comes from trying to make something so bad ass that they make a mockery of anything else that might even oppose them. Once its been proven that you can lift a bus over your head, anything less than a freight train next would seem unimpressive and mundane. GW has really backed themselves into a corner with SM fluff. The only place to go is the even more ridiculously fantastic and heaven help what ever chapter gets to be the main character.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And I'll be honest, the fact that the wolves have a character that scares a Daemon Primarch because he managed to poke him in the eye, some NORMAL MARINE, who scares a DAEMON PRIMARCH who can SHATTER TITANS with his BRAIN, Is still stupid.
If he poked him in the eye with a stick, sure. At least he used a weapon that was gifted to Russ by the Emperor himself. That's going to do a number on anyone daemon-primarch or not.
Space wolves are an imperial army and they have 3+ armor save.
It's like you are complaing that santa hasn't preordered you the latest iphone even though you have been suffering with the older model for a week now.
Last I checked wolves were still pretty good. They can get really good psychic defense and have power armor. They are a good assault-oriented army that can still take part in the psychic and shooting phase.
Their fluff is a bit over the top. Their primarch was raised by a mutated-human-turned-into-a-massive-wolf, then he was turned into a warrior prince who started a golden age on the craphole of a planet he landed on. Leman Russ was also the only primarch who kicked the emperor's butt at everything and the emprah had to punch him with a powerfist so he could pretend he had bested him. Russ then joined the great crusade, created the most feral space marine chapter who were then used as the executioners of other marines. There's a tank named after their primarch and nowadays they are wolf-fetishists who, despite the existence of the minotaurs chapter, still maintain they are the best at killing other marines. Oh but they brood, too. For you see, their gene-seed is unstable due to the mutating gene that was given to the locals of Fenris so they're all alone because they can't have chapters. And despite their whole norse theme, they are apparently the only good guys in the entire setting. Y'know, except for proclaiming themselves as the emperor's executioners BEFORE the heresy. Ignore that, they're the good guys!
Ah, rant over.
As for not wanting to be put into the main SM book... How is it that every wolf player I know hates the TWC but uses it as one of the reasons they can't be bundled together? That doesn't make sense to me.
Last time you checked wasn't very recent, and your understanding of the way the chapter changed between 30k and 40k is woefully inadequate.
Wolves actually have worse psychic defense than their codex brethren. Rune Priests give up the ability to protect units they aren't part of in exchange for mimicking the function of Adamantium Will.
As for the background, let me clear some things up. The VIth Legion, who followed Russ during the Great Crusade and the Age of Darkness, have almost nothing in common with their descendants. Russ was a belligerent jerk, tasked by the Emperor with being the one to turn his axe on his brethren when ordered. They were brutal, callous, oblivious to concerns of collateral damage, and totally fixated on the obliteration of their objectives. They weren't good guys at all. They killed every living thing on Prospero when ordered. They left nothing in their wake but ashes and silence when a world refused to kneel to the Emperor.
Flash forward ten thousand years and you have a chapter that is obsessed with adhering to the most superficial of the old Legion traditions, don't have any real comprehension of the deeper ones, and refuse to recognize the authority of those who rule in the Emperor's stead. They set aside their task of being willing to attack their brethren when the Heresy made fighting another legion commonplace, and haven't picked it up again since. Instead, they're obsessed with an ideal of what the galaxy is supposed to be like, and are willing to fight and die for an ideal that was a lie when it was first given voice and remains a lie 10,000 years later.
And you need to meet more Wolf players. Most of us hate thunderwolves. I've been hoping the VIth would get rolled into the Space Marine codex since 4th edition since I'd rather see a real Sisters release, a return of Squats, a real AdMech army, and another xenos army than get more Space Marines.
Mumblez wrote: As for not wanting to be put into the main SM book... How is it that every wolf player I know hates the TWC but uses it as one of the reasons they can't be bundled together? That doesn't make sense to me.
I don't like TWC but it's still a reason not to put them in the SM codex. Even though I hate them, GW should never go lightly about removing any unit from any army, especially ones that have models for. Even if I wanted them gone I don't see GW removing the rules for a unit that has such recent models (and though they're absurd, they are pretty nice models, I'm using singular Thunderwolves to represent 2 wolves pulling my Goblin Chariots in WHFB).
1000 sons got what they deserved for thinking they know better then everyone else and dooming everyone. If magnus just fed off then the emperor would still be around, but like all arrogant people who screwed everyone over then refused his punishment and ran, now he sulks in a locked tower.
OgreChubbs wrote: 1000 sons got what they deserved for thinking they know better then everyone else and dooming everyone. If magnus just fed off then the emperor would still be around, but like all arrogant people who screwed everyone over then refused his punishment and ran, now he sulks in a locked tower.
Talk about a twisting of what happened...
He sent a warning to the Emperor that his favored son was about to turn on him, was never informed as to what was occurring at the Emperor's palace on Earth, and the SW's chose to attack and destroy his Legion instead of bringing Magnus back as per their original orders, and then nobody even heeded his warning.
The first stage of Horus's plan to betray the Emperor involved modifying Russ's orders, replacing the directive to apprehend Magnus with an order to destroy him and his legion. Curiously, Constantin Valdor, who witnessed firsthand the effects of Magnus's actions and got his orders straight from Big E, didn't seem to have a problem with killing Magnus.
However, it's not like Magnus was a loyal son of the Emperor at any point. He consigned the souls of all his warriors to Tzeentch to address the instability in their geneseed, and then taught all of them to summon and bargain with lesser daemons to amplify their powers. Despite repeatedly being shown otherwise, he continued to act as though he were smarter and wiser than the Emperor, making bigger and bigger and bigger messes as he did.
Admittedly, I tend to think that the geneseed instability the XVth Legion suffered was a result of the machinations of Tzeentch, engineered for the express purpose of luring Magnus into a bargain that would lead him fully into the arms of the Primordial Annihilator.
As the Index Astartes notes, the details of the incident are sketchy and contradicted in many sources. I'd caution against treating a single Black Library novel as if it were the undiluted truth. For example, GW's Index Astartes suggests that it was Russ who persuaded the Emperor not to listen to Magnus' warnings, convincing him that Magnus was the traitor and not Horus, and urging him to authorise deployment against the Thousand Sons.
That's the upside of the many conflicting interpretations - you can pick the one you find the most interesting.
The novels that are written as first hand accounts seems like much more reliable sources of information than a White Dwarf article written from the perspective of someone writing about long forgotten ancient history.
Ignoring the primary source so that you can cling to the vagueness of an admittedly inaccurate tertiary one seems intellectually dishonest.
That's the thing - this is not how the franchise works.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the very creators of these novels, explained it in here:
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
He also quoted Marc Gascogne who made this statement back when he was the Head Editor of Black Library:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
That novels are supposed to somehow be "truer" than other sources (an idea that, most interestingly, quickly gets discarded once someone mentions C.S. Goto) is one of the greatest misconceptions of the fandom.
No, let me amend this. The greatest one is the expectation that everything is actually designed to fit together like pieces of a puzzle, rather than acknowledging that contradictions are quite intentional. This urban rumour that just does not want to die must be the cause of 90% of the endless fluff debates between fans. The dishonesty lies with those who propagate the silly idea that 40khas a canon.
Games Workshop wants you as the individual gamer and reader to take possession of the setting, to shape and see it like you want. Just like they give you the tools to create your own Space Marine Chapter or Imperial Guard regiment. It took me a while to wrap my head around this, specifically because I was deceived into the same expectations about a consistent setting when I first joined the fandom (ADB also talks about the mistake of applying other IP's policies to 40k), but this is how it is, as per the people who made the stuff we read.
"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." - Gav Thorpe
Otto Weston wrote: Because the Space Wolves slaughtered the Thousand Sons..... and are dicks
This. Damn furries. I really want to like the wolves, i mean they're space vikings and should be the coolest thing ever, but i have yet to read a good depiction of them. I too finished thousand sons and was like "wow, what hypocritical ignorant dickbags, i hope fenris gets bombed"
In saying that, their codex does indeed make for a good khorne list, maybe they should just admit they love khorne and join team key-yoss.
Fenris has been attacked by many factions, even the Grey Knights and Inquisition. Logan Grimnar personally decapitated the inquisitor in charge of the attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus if you're a heretic you deserve everything they can give you.
Heretics? Russ was following horus' orders. If the emperor had listened to magnus the heresy would have been avoided.
illuknisaa wrote: Space wolves are an imperial army and they have 3+ armor save.
It's like you are complaing that santa hasn't preordered you the latest iphone even though you have been suffering with the older model for a week now.
Screw the Space Pound Puppies! If they get their own trash, damnit, so do the Chaos Space Marines!! And not that garbage they shoveled earlier (Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter). Real books like Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Screw the Space Pound Puppies! If they get their own trash, damnit, so do the Chaos Space Marines!! And not that garbage they shoveled earlier (Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter). Real books like Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors.
I agree. Chaos needs some respect, but do not fear! They are predicted to be the next release after Space Wolves.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Screw the Space Pound Puppies! If they get their own trash, damnit, so do the Chaos Space Marines!! And not that garbage they shoveled earlier (Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter). Real books like Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors.
I agree. Chaos needs some respect, but do not fear! They are predicted to be the next release after Space Wolves.
I cringe with anticipation. @__@; What will the loyalists do to us usurpers next? Better give our Terminators friggin Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. That's some loyalist b.s. keeping the Chaos Armory empty.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Screw the Space Pound Puppies! If they get their own trash, damnit, so do the Chaos Space Marines!! And not that garbage they shoveled earlier (Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter). Real books like Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors.
I agree. Chaos needs some respect, but do not fear! They are predicted to be the next release after Space Wolves.
I cringe with anticipation. @__@; What will the loyalists do to us usurpers next? Better give our Terminators friggin Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. That's some loyalist b.s. keeping the Chaos Armory empty.
Maybe not storm shields, but I heard Papa Nurgle is coming to town.
OgreChubbs wrote: 1000 sons got what they deserved for thinking they know better then everyone else and dooming everyone. If magnus just fed off then the emperor would still be around, but like all arrogant people who screwed everyone over then refused his punishment and ran, now he sulks in a locked tower.
Talk about a twisting of what happened...
He sent a warning to the Emperor that his favored son was about to turn on him, was never informed as to what was occurring at the Emperor's palace on Earth, and the SW's chose to attack and destroy his Legion instead of bringing Magnus back as per their original orders, and then nobody even heeded his warning.
Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus and the Sons rather than bring them back.
Space Wolves are not neglected, want to talk about neglected there are a series of other armies who feel it more painfully then you guys do (Bretonnians in Fantasy for example, they have a book that's 7 years old and counting). Just be patient, they will get to your precious puppies in no time, either way my Elyisans and Tau will be waiting
Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
I love my Wolves but I'll admit, I wish they could lean a bit more towards some Viking-ish stuff and didn't use Wolf, claw, or fang as a substitute for every other word. Personally, I'm really hoping they get a name change like IG did to Astra Militarum. I'd freaking love fielding an army of Vlka Fenryka.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I love my Wolves but I'll admit, I wish they could lean a bit more towards some Viking-ish stuff and didn't use Wolf, claw, or fang as a substitute for every other word. Personally, I'm really hoping they get a name change like IG did to Astra Militarum. I'd freaking love fielding an army of Vlka Fenryka.
I agree. If they had never existed previously and a new army was released called "Space Wolves" the internet would melt from the heat of the ridicule.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Screw the Space Pound Puppies! If they get their own trash, damnit, so do the Chaos Space Marines!! And not that garbage they shoveled earlier (Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter). Real books like Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors.
I agree. Chaos needs some respect, but do not fear! They are predicted to be the next release after Space Wolves.
I cringe with anticipation. @__@; What will the loyalists do to us usurpers next? Better give our Terminators friggin Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. That's some loyalist b.s. keeping the Chaos Armory empty.
I have heard the Heldrake fire arc is reduced to 10 degrees to the front and may only make a turn ever-other game turn.
"Watch out Magnus, you know you're not supposed to use magic. Magic is eeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiilll"
"But you have librarians."
"No, they're rune priests"
"But they use magic"
"No, they use wolf...magic. It's different".
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I love my Wolves but I'll admit, I wish they could lean a bit more towards some Viking-ish stuff and didn't use Wolf, claw, or fang as a substitute for every other word. Personally, I'm really hoping they get a name change like IG did to Astra Militarum. I'd freaking love fielding an army of Vlka Fenryka.
Vlka Fenryka would definitely be a better name for them. It could also open up new options: space wolves refers to the space marines of Fenris, while vlka fenryka means folks of fenris, so including fenrisian wolves and other 'local forces' wouldn't seem as silly. They might even get their unique leman russ tanks back with a codex called that...
pax_imperialis wrote: "Watch out Magnus, you know you're not supposed to use magic. Magic is eeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiilll"
"But you have librarians."
"No, they're rune priests"
"But they use magic"
"No, they use wolf...magic. It's different".
G00fySmiley wrote: Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads.
Make you wonder why people call the ultramarines smurfs. Actually, the Space Smurf speaks in smurf all the time. They just replace the word smurf with the word wolf. They wolf like that all the wolf. The smurf angels replace the word smurf with blood. They blood like that all the blood. It is wolfing a blood silly, if you get what I mean .
pax_imperialis wrote:"Watch out Magnus, you know you're not supposed to use magic. Magic is eeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiilll"
"But you have librarians."
"No, they're rune priests"
"But they use magic"
"No, they use wolf...magic. It's different".
Exactly!
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:Personally, I'm really hoping they get a name change like IG did to Astra Militarum. I'd freaking love fielding an army of Vlka Fenryka.
You mean Astarium Lupisicus? Astartes Fenririum? Adeptus Dogerius? In seriousness, I'd approve of this as well, but they'd have to tell us how to pronounce that.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
Except the part where they're Canadians.
You'll have to explain that one, I don't see any similarity between Space Wolves and Canadians.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
...except for the parts where they win against silly odds that would make the silliest SW fanfic look professional. *Cough* Battle of The Fang *cough* Blood of Asheim
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
Except the part where they're Canadians.
You'll have to explain that one, I don't see any similarity between Space Wolves and Canadians.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
...except for the parts where they win against silly odds that would make the silliest SW fanfic look professional. *Cough* Battle of The Fang *cough* Blood of Asheim
They won because Fenris the very world itself fought against the thousand sons. A Rune Priest caused massive storms which took out most of their army.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
...except for the parts where they win against silly odds that would make the silliest SW fanfic look professional. *Cough* Battle of The Fang *cough* Blood of Asheim
They won because Fenris the very world itself fought against the thousand sons. A Rune Priest caused massive storms which took out most of their army.
G00fySmiley wrote: Orks were in 4th edition until 7th edition. Talk about sw being neglected when you go to 8th.
Also fluff wise space wolves might be the worst codex, wolf mcwolferson wolfed a wolf to the wolfing wolf is pretty much how it reads. That said it is still one of the best books for apace marines. When you get a new book I doubt it will add much power. I bet they are one of the next up though I think blood angels who if I remember right are older than space wolves Dex wise is next IOM then likely dark eldar who ate also older... Then probably wolves
The Space Wolves fluff is amazing if you have any appreciation for Norse mythology.
...except for the parts where they win against silly odds that would make the silliest SW fanfic look professional. *Cough* Battle of The Fang *cough* Blood of Asheim
They won because Fenris the very world itself fought against the thousand sons. A Rune Priest caused massive storms which took out most of their army.
And yet the Thousand Sons being far better trained, magically enhanced by both Tzeentch and the Rubric of Ahriman.
Think about what's more powerful. A sorcerer drawing on a small portion of the warp's power with the risk of backlash. Or a Rune Priest drawing on the power of an ENTIRE world with no risk of psychic backlash?
Blacksails wrote: Think about what sounds sillier when you consider how it works when they're not on that planet.
It's the 41st millennium, very little makes sense. That doesn't keep it from being awesome.
I think, like mentioned earlier, it comes off a little like bad fan fiction.
"So this faction has powers like everyone else, but instead of using the exact same source/method like everyone else, they use this totally different method that makes them different and better, but they totally hate when other factions do pretty much the exact same thing they do, because their way is totally different and better."
It strikes me as just poor writing. If they dislike psykers, then they shouldn't have anything mystical like that to fortify that aspect of their character. If they use powers like everyone else, best that they at least keep with the theme and just use psykers like everyone else.
Personal taste and all that, but I don't think its awesome at all. The same way I don't think a Wolf Lord riding a Thunder Wolf wearing a Wolf pelt and wielding his Wolf Claw is awesome.
Random Dude wrote: Which is precisely why I use Ragnar. Someone who constantly gains attacks as his rage skyrockets is much better than a wolfy wolf lord on a wolf.
Sure, but that doesn't change the fluff/crunch of the Space Wolves as a faction.
They could be an awesome Norse flavoured chapter, but the whole thing falls flat and often finds itself confused as to what it wants to be.
Random Dude wrote: I think I've learned to accept that with GW. Let's just hope Matt Ward doesn't write the next codex.
Well, some chapters are better developed in that they have a defined theme and stick to it with minimal contradiction or excessive silliness. But yeah, like much of GW, there's a lot of hit and miss. For me, the Wolves are mostly miss.
Ward has actually done some decent stuff crunch-wise, but the fluff leaves something to be desired. Really though, there isn't a codex writer that doesn't have some glaring flaw or shoddy track record of some sort. None of the writers strike me as having any sort of consistency with either crunch or fluff.
Random Dude wrote: I think I've learned to accept that with GW. Let's just hope Matt Ward doesn't write the next codex.
Ward writing a space marine codex is good he will jack up the power level... But I think he did orks and does not like or understand them hence to new codex being.... Boringnerfed and overcosted... Took cybork body from 5++ to 6+ fnp .. Wtf
Random Dude wrote: Think about what's more powerful. A sorcerer drawing on a small portion of the warp's power with the risk of backlash. Or a Rune Priest drawing on the power of an ENTIRE world with no risk of psychic backlash?
That's precisely the problem, though - they're not actually drawing on Fenris, they're drawing on the Warp. Fenris is just a planet, and has no inherent psychic signature (if it did, we'd be wondering if it were really a Daemon World). Rune Priests are psykers, they just believe that their power comes from Fenris and that they're not psykers at all. This hypocrisy makes part of why people dislike the SW (not to mention that The Emperor himself believed them and let them keep practising magic while simultaneously condemning other Legions for it).
The Thousand Sons are supposed to be the greatest of all psykers (generally, obviously not including rare exceptions like Alphas), especially after the Rubric. Furthermore they are Chaos Sorcerers, whose patronage with a Dark God and free reign to pursue any hidden knowledge they desire (unlike Librarians, who are bound by strict rules to safeguard them from the Warp) are supposed to make them inherently superior to other psykers. Finally, how many Rune Priests were there? One? The Thousand Sons always have a number of sorcerers. If you're talking about the Battle of the Fang (I have no knowledge of Blood of Asheim), then Magnus the Red was there. You know, Magnus, the guy who was rumoured to be psychically on par with The Emperor even before he was backed up by the Chaos God of magic?
The battle of the Fang was won because the Fang is a fortress monestary built inside one of the biggest mountains on a *death* world. No part of that is good for an attacking force, their humans where dying like flies to the natural weather on Fenris.
Random Dude wrote: Think about what's more powerful. A sorcerer drawing on a small portion of the warp's power with the risk of backlash. Or a Rune Priest drawing on the power of an ENTIRE world with no risk of psychic backlash?
That's precisely the problem, though - they're not actually drawing on Fenris, they're drawing on the Warp. Fenris is just a planet, and has no inherent psychic signature (if it did, we'd be wondering if it were really a Daemon World). Rune Priests are psykers, they just believe that their power comes from Fenris and that they're not psykers at all. This hypocrisy makes part of why people dislike the SW (not to mention that The Emperor himself believed them and let them keep practising magic while simultaneously condemning other Legions for it).
The Thousand Sons are supposed to be the greatest of all psykers (generally, obviously not including rare exceptions like Alphas), especially after the Rubric. Furthermore they are Chaos Sorcerers, whose patronage with a Dark God and free reign to pursue any hidden knowledge they desire (unlike Librarians, who are bound by strict rules to safeguard them from the Warp) are supposed to make them inherently superior to other psykers. Finally, how many Rune Priests were there? One? The Thousand Sons always have a number of sorcerers. If you're talking about the Battle of the Fang (I have no knowledge of Blood of Asheim), then Magnus the Red was there. You know, Magnus, the guy who was rumoured to be psychically on par with The Emperor even before he was backed up by the Chaos God of magic?
Blood of Asheim.... just.... don't read it. For the sweet Emperor of whatever you want maybe chaos nids don't find out. Frankly, I think it's worse than The battle of the Fang and I think that's a pretty bad one. The characters felt bland, Space Wolves cringing at being called that name, the antagonists are meh and have very odd power levels with marines butchering their way through infinite forces with no losses, coupled with, in my opinion, perhaps one of the most horrendous interpretations of Sisters (talking they lost faith and were inspired by wolves that constantly insult them over and over and reveals a secret to them she promised to keep then they all get killed in a stand, in a safe position with guardsman prepared with flamers to kill. The Marines kill drastically more despite only being a small force. And, for funzies a Sister let in a plague refuge foolishly.)
Let's be honest, it was kind of easy to beat that Magnus, he kept on forgetting who he was and remembering the past all the time like some nostalgic old man.
My favourite part about all these threads is how, like any Space Wolf related thread, it turns into this almost witch hunt/religious pseudo debate. Their main anger seems to come from the fact that the source of powers for Rune Priests comes from a planet yet they remain in the Imperium. An Imperium headed by a "God Emperor" who has lived for centuries on a chair that they sacrifice thousands to in effort to fuel it. I just find myself astonished that out of all the insane, unrealistic, out of this world fiction, it's the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
"You're different and I hate you for it." - The generalization of what every person who has a vendetta against wolves says.
I just find it amusing that in a game meant for adults, it's the most childish who crawl out of the woodwork to complain about these things. Especially the ones complaining about the psyker powers that NO LONGER EXIST.
Instead of them turning their annoyance towards GW and its writers, they turn on the Space Wolves players and seem to have this goal in shaming them for wanting to play something different when every other chapter is the exact same as the last in a different paint scheme.
Who cares if it makes total sense? Who cares if it doesn't follow the status quo? I have one very big realization for anyone that complains about things like this.
Warhammer 40K IS A GAME.
A GAME FOR FUN.
If your life is so dominated by a game that it causes you to do nothing but complain, ridicule and berate your fellow players than I believe you have a much bigger problem in your own personal life that should take precedence over whether or not a passage from a book related to a game makes sense to you.
There are those among the Dakka community who know that this applies to them and whether or not they want to admit to it is up to them.
I fully expect to catch a lot of flame for this but before that happens, I'd like to point out that those who have these issues against the Space Wolves should be stating them in 40k Background and not General Discussion. The fact that it leaks into what could be considered the out of character section should show just how small minded some people can be.
Random Dude wrote: Think about what's more powerful. A sorcerer drawing on a small portion of the warp's power with the risk of backlash. Or a Rune Priest drawing on the power of an ENTIRE world with no risk of psychic backlash?
That's precisely the problem, though - they're not actually drawing on Fenris, they're drawing on the Warp. Fenris is just a planet, and has no inherent psychic signature (if it did, we'd be wondering if it were really a Daemon World). Rune Priests are psykers, they just believe that their power comes from Fenris and that they're not psykers at all. This hypocrisy makes part of why people dislike the SW (not to mention that The Emperor himself believed them and let them keep practising magic while simultaneously condemning other Legions for it).
The Thousand Sons are supposed to be the greatest of all psykers (generally, obviously not including rare exceptions like Alphas), especially after the Rubric. Furthermore they are Chaos Sorcerers, whose patronage with a Dark God and free reign to pursue any hidden knowledge they desire (unlike Librarians, who are bound by strict rules to safeguard them from the Warp) are supposed to make them inherently superior to other psykers. Finally, how many Rune Priests were there? One? The Thousand Sons always have a number of sorcerers. If you're talking about the Battle of the Fang (I have no knowledge of Blood of Asheim), then Magnus the Red was there. You know, Magnus, the guy who was rumoured to be psychically on par with The Emperor even before he was backed up by the Chaos God of magic?
Your falling into the trap where two different books with the same named character is the same named character in both books. What I mean is Magnus the Reds power level and accomplishments will be different in two different books. In one book he is a total bad ass sorcer on par with the Emperor. In another he is the antagonist who must somehow loose at the end of the book. Well he sure as hell cant really loose if he is as all powerful as Book A made him out to be, but in order for Book B to have the ending the author envisions he has to loose, so he does, and as such makes either the protag in Book B look really awesome, or the Magnus looks like he missed a step somewhere along the way. And we the fans are left trying to reconcile why Magnus A and B don't add up to the same guy.
This is what you get when you have multiple authors writing in the same setting, using the same characters and no checks and balances. This isn't just a 40K thing. Try reading various Conan, Zorro, Lone Ranger, novels by different authors - you would hardly know its the same guy. The same with Star Trek and even Star Wars to a degree.
Its also totally possible to be anti psycher and imploy your own psychers. Sometimes it takes a witch to kill a witch. The SW have enough other anti-psycher gear in the form of Wolf Tail Talismans, runic staves, and runic armor to easily impress their devotion to stopping enemy psychic abilities. Far beyond the standard issue psychic hoods that seem to be the only form of protection that other Chapters use. Hell don't GK use daemon infused weapons against daemons themselves?
I love how Space Wolf fanboys and girls all actually buy into that "power of the planet" bullgak.
I mean, someone even stated that Rune Priests don't fear backlash!
Newsflash, honey: Rune Priests suffer from Perils of the Warp just like any other psyker.
Captain Planet does not risk Perils of the Warp.
Rune Priests do.
Which of these draws on the 'powers of the planet' and which is a deluded witch again?
_______________________________________________
In all honesty, I quite like the "power of the planet" stuff with the Wolves, because it's so obviously there to demonstrate hypocrisy and show how the loyalist Imperium is just as bad as the traitors.
Remember, people: 40k is not a "heroes vs villains" setting. The whole concept of 40k's alignment axis is "How evil can we make the protagonists while still presenting them as the preferable option?"
I think the whole 'drawing power from Fenris' isn't just the Wolve's justification to their selves, it's more a mindset. They see Thousand Sons dealing with creatures of the warp and they are disgusted, as they should be, because even though they are psykers, they stay the hell away from that kind of stuff.
I think a big part of the issue is that Space Marines in general are shown to be infallible and godlike, and Space Wolves are even worse. They're the baddest of the bad, they don't follow the Codex Astartes, they drink and fight and sleep around, and can attack and kill Inquisitors with no repercussions. They're basically the ultimate Mary Sue faction among a group of Mary Sue factions (i.e. Marines in general), and I say that as someone who actually kinda likes Wolves and is *very* tempting to pick up the new campaign set with them in it.
Any other Chapter would be sanctioned and/or declared traitors, but not the Wolves. They do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want and everybody else kind of just goes "Oh, those wacky Space Wolves! What will they do next?" and everyone bursts out laughing. Compare that to something like the Crimson Sabres who were duped into massacring a planet by a daemon that was masquerading as an Inquisitor and almost immediately declared traitors because nobody liked them to begin with just because they were a bit on the rugged side; I bet the Wolves could (and probably have) done the same thing and nobody cares, because they're the Space Wolves.
In short, most Wolf fluff reads like bad fanfiction from a teenager who wants his characters to be the most larger-than-life badasses ever so they do impossible things and come out unscathed or without facing any consequences.
I personally just dislike the whole rune priest thing because it's utterly dumb. You can justify it however you want, but like a lot of space wolf fluff, it just seems to be different for the sake of being different. As someone on this page described it, it reads a bit like a fanfic.
"You're different and I hate you for it." - The generalization of what every person who has a vendetta against wolves says.
Or more simply
"The lore for Wolves is childish, hypocritical, and possibly the biggest Mary Sue faction in the entirety of the 40k lore."
Then of course there's the fact they've always been Space marines + 1 for being better, overall more powerful, and have since 2nd edition.
Their main anger seems to come from the fact that the source of powers for Rune Priests comes from a planet yet they remain in the Imperium. An Imperium headed by a "God Emperor" who has lived for centuries on a chair that they sacrifice thousands to in effort to fuel it. I just find myself astonished that out of all the insane, unrealistic, out of this world fiction, it's the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
It'd be the same if Blood Angels started shooting blood bolts from their bolters that are able to penetrate titans, it breaks the lore, it's not cookie-cutter if all your doing is breaking the established setting to begin with, and it's just plain stupid.
I love Space Wolves and have collected them long time, but I'd be happy to see Rune Priests turned in to more of an anti-psyker unit instead of what they are now. Maybe the exception being Njal.
I'd also be happy to have them drop a lot of the wolf wolfiness of wolfdom stuff and instead go to more of a viking theme. The wolf-ness should primarily be a reference to the nature of the chapter and more secretly the flaw in the geneseed, not them running around with the wolfness of wolfenstien.
Space Wolves could be such an awesomely written chapter, currently they're not.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I love Space Wolves and have collected them long time, but I'd be happy to see Rune Priests turned in to more of an anti-psyker unit instead of what they are now. Maybe the exception being Njal.
I'd also be happy to have them drop a lot of the wolf wolfiness of wolfdom stuff and instead go to more of a viking theme. The wolf-ness should primarily be a reference to the nature of the chapter and more secretly the flaw in the geneseed, not them running around with the wolfness of wolfenstien.
Space Wolves could be such an awesomely written chapter, currently they're not.
Agree. Make them more Viking like. Hell, Skyrim is/was still popular, make them more like Nords and use that as their selling point, not wolves everywhere. I mean, you don't see Raven Guard riding giant ravens (although that'd be cool :p)
I love the idea of the Space Wolves. I love the background and fluff. What I don't like is some of their rules.
Their Devastators get 5 Heavies because.....Space Wolves.
They get 4 HQs because....Space Wolves.
I think the whole "Space Marines +1" thing leads to resentment. I don't mind chapters getting unique things, but when it's over the top for no reason it kinda grates on you.
Even Bjorn doesn't agree with all the wolf-ness going on;
Spoiler:
Storytime with Bjorn the Fellhanded
The familiar hissing of servos being powered up after decades of idleness filled the echoing sarcophagus he was trying to rest in. As his senses engaged, once more allowing him to see and hear the outside world, the familiar chanting filled his near-dead ears once more.
"Ah, dammit", he thought, "it's that time of the century again".
The language of the Space Wolves' rune priests was a harsh, guttural dialect appropriate for harsh people with excesses of phlegm, and if this lot were like the last lot, that was an accurate description.
Oh well, time to put on the show.
He cleared his throat and prepared his deep, tired voice for use once more. After all, if he made it seem like he was slowly losing his grip on reality, they might let him sleep longer.
"WHO AWAKENS BJORN?" he spoke into the microphone, letting the vox casters on the Dreadnought echo it out into the surrounding room. He could already see who was awakening him - the little gimp with the wolf-pubes for a beard - but he had to follow the ritual, make it look all authentic or they would start asking questions.
"Oh mighty Bjorn, the Fell-Handed-" ahh gak, he hated that nickname, "we awaken thee to help us remember the past, the forgotten and the sacrificed, those who embody the spirit of the Wolf."
Spirit of the Wolf? That bollocks was new. Normally they went on about the spirit of the warrior and gak.
"YOU WISH TO HEAR THE TALES AGAIN, DO YOU?" he recited, having said this gak at least half a dozen times in the past.
"Yes, oh Venerable one, please, tell us." The pube-faced-tard and the collection of ugly gaks behind him bowed in supplication. He really, REALLY hated having to tell all these tales. Imagine being asleep, and only being woken up every few hours to tell stories, then being put back to sleep. That was his fate, and he was starting to get sick of it. And they always wanted to hear about fething Leman Russ, too. Woe betide any fether stupid enough to ask about Leman Russ.
"FIND ME AN AUDIENCE OF LOYAL WARRIORS, STRONG AND TRUE, WHO MIGHT WISH TO HEAR THE TALES."
Gythor was excited. More than excited, he was ecstatic. He was still a Blood Claw, having not yet earned the opportunity to become a fully fledged Grey Hunter in glorious combat, but he was privileged to be one of those alive at the right time to hear the tales of Bjorn, the Fell-Handed. One of the oldest Space Marines still alive, one who saw the Emperor himself! He would hear the glorious tales spoken from the mans own lips - well, vox casters - of great legends that had been fading to the years.
While he waited he shared an ale with his packmates, but a hush settled over the crowd as the heavy footfalls of a Dreadnought could be heard approaching. All eyes turned towards the massive oak doors of the great hall as it approached, step after step, agonizingly slowly. Just when it sounded like it was right outside the noise stopped. Second after second ticked by, quiet having settled over the room like a blanket over a frightened child. First it was seconds, then it stretched into minutes. Finally a voice down the back of the room spoke up.
"Do we... open the door for him, or someth-" He was interrupted by the door of the great hall, which had stood for a millennia, essentially exploding inwards, shattering into a thousand pieces and flinging themselves at the assembled Space Wolves. The Blood Claws near the door found themselves with cuts from flying wood all over their faces, one collapsing to the ground with a shard of wood the size of his fist embedded in his eye.
"Lucky fether," thought Gythor, "he's going to get SUCH a fething cool scar."
"I AM HERE" spoke Bjorn, the words echoing out through the great hall, emerging lifelessly from the vox caster mounted on the Dreadnought. A great cheer rose from the masses of Space Wolves, before they chanted their traditional song of joy, repeating the word 'Wolf' at varying pitches in an almost orchestral sounding song. For a second Gythor thought he heard the vox casters on the Dreadnought mutter 'what the fu-', but he knew such a thing could not be right. Bjorns voice was as powerful as thunder, a mech like that did not mumble.
The Space Wolves cleared the path for the enormous, venerable Dreadnought to pace down the length of the enormous hall, his pounding footsteps knocking aside ale tankards within a few meters of him as he passed.
Gythor held his breath in excitement as the Dreadnought reached the head of the hall and turned to face the assembled masses.
"TELL ME, OF WHICH STORY DO YOU WISH TO HEAR?" boomed his dead, powerful voice. A thousand responses rose at once, Wolves shouting their answers all together.
The high rune priest, who had followed along behind Bjorn without even being noticed, held his hand out for silence. "Brothers, please! You, Grey-Hunter Rynold, you may ask first." The marine singled out rose from his seat, helmet clutched under his arm with pride.
"Noble Bjorn the Fell-handed-" an echoed grunt of annoyance echoed around the hall, but no one seemed to notice, "-tell us more of our glorious founder, tell us of the greatness of Leman Russ himself!" Rynold thrust his free hand into the air as if he had achieved some glorious victory in asking his question. From the cheers of agreement of his fellow marines, many felt he had. As the cheers died off, it took a few seconds to realize Bjorn was silent. He had not yet answered.
The high Rune priest cleared his throat once. "Uh, mighty Bjorn, do you need the question repea-"
"YOU ladies men" bellowed the noble dreadnought. Silence answered his words, until a few of the long fangs near the front of the hall started chuckling, obviously thinking it was a joke. "DON'T fething LAUGH. DO I SOUND LIKE I'M MAKING A JOKE?!" Again, silence answered his words. "SERIOUSLY, I'M WOKEN UP ONCE A fething HUNDRED YEARS TO TELL YOU fethers OF THE PAST, AND EACH TIME I SEE YOU, YOU'VE fethed OVER HISTORY EVEN WORSE THAN IT WAS BEFORE!! LEMAN RUSS WAS AN donkey-cave!"
Again, silence. The Rune Priest cleared his throat. "Perhaps we should allow noble Dreadnought Bjorn some more rest, shall w-"
"NO, ENOUGH fething REST. YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HEAR ABOUT WHY LEMAN RUSS WAS A fething DICK. SERIOUSLY. A DICK. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY I'M CALLED 'THE FELL-HANDED'? HUH? DO YA'? THE fether CAUGHT ME JERKING OFF BEHIND A BIG ROCK ONE NIGHT ABOUT TWENTY METERS FROM THE REST OF THE DETACHMENT! HE KICKED THE ROCK AWAY AND SHOUTED, 'LO, IT SEEMS HE IS BESTING A MIGHTY FELL-BEAST WITH ONLY HIS HAND!"
Again, silence. This time broken by a slight snickering from some of the younger Blood Claws.
"I fething HEARD THAT, YOU witches. YOU fething WOLF fethers. YEAH, DON'T THINK I DON'T NOTICE YOUR GROWING OBSESSION WITH WOLVES. SERIOUSLY, WHEN I WAS AROUND WE WERE JUST CRAZY fethers WHO RIPPED OUT OUR ENEMIE'S THROATS WITH OUR TEETH. NOW YOU'RE fething RIDING WOLVES INTO BATTLE. YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU CAN RIDE INTO BATTLE? fething BIKES! MAYBE EVEN A fething BIKE THAT HAS GUNS ATTACHED!"
Silence dominated the room in between Bjorn's words. A few of the Wolf-riders cleared their throats nervously and patted their wolf companions, all of whom had a thousand yard stare and the haunted look of molestation victims.
"YOU fethers THINK YOU KNOW LEMAN RUSS? THE GUY WAS A DOUCHE. HIS STRATEGIES WERE 'YEAH, YOU GUYS GO CHARGE THE ENEMY, I'LL SECURE THIS SHACK WITH THESE BITCHES', AND HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT FEMALE WOLVES."
The high rune priest held his head in his armoured hands for a second, before standing up once more. "Mighty Bjorn, perhaps we shou-"
"HE WAS TALKING ABOUT WOMEN. YOU KNOW WHY HE HATED... WHAT'S HIS NAME, THE RED GUY. THAT GEEK, WHAT WAS HIS NAME AGAIN?"
The Rune Priest, now resigned to this being the second worst Bjorn story-time ever, answered, "He was Magnus The Red, mighty Bjorn."
"YEAH, fething MAGNUS, HE WAS A DECENT MAN. HE AND LEMAN HATED EACH OTHER BECAUSE MAGNUS ENJOYED BOOKS. YEAH, THAT'S IT. FIRST TIME THEY EVER MET HE WAS READING A BOOK, LEMAN WALKED IN AND SHOUTED 'HEY, I'M LOOKING FOR MY BROTHER PRIMARCH, ALL I SEE IS A BOOK-READING PUSSY'. THEN HELD HIS HAND OUT TO BE BRO-FISTED. NO ONE DID, SO HE SUCKER-PUNCHED MAGNUS TO LOOK TOUGH."
Again, only silence, this time broken by the sound of an ale tankard being dropped from numb fingers.
"YEAH, THE GUY WAS A witch. WHEN THEY SHOWED HIM THE SCHEMATICS FOR THE LEMAN RUSS TANK, YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? HE SAID 'MAKE THE CANNON BIGGER... LIKE MY COCK!' HE DEMANDED THE SCHEMATICS FOR THE PREMIERE TANK OF THE IMPERIAL GUARD BE ALTERED PURELY SO HE COULD MAKE A DICK JOKE!"
The servos of Bjorn's mighty armoured sarcophagus whirred into life as he suddenly started forward, his pounding feet bringing him back towards the door he burst in from. He did not stop as he crushed his way through a two-millennia-old table, and Space Wolves scattered out of his way with each thudding footstep. The entire assembled chapter watched in amazement as the Dreadnought sulked off, stopping only at the door to turn and speak once.
"IF YOU fethers WAKE ME AGAIN, IT BETTER BE TO KILL SOMETHING OR ASK ABOUT ACTUAL HEROES, NOT BITCH-STEALING donkey-caves." And with that, Bjorn walked away, followed by hastily running Rune Priests.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I love the idea of the Space Wolves. I love the background and fluff. What I don't like is some of their rules.
Their Devastators get 5 Heavies because.....Space Wolves. They get 4 HQs because....Space Wolves.
I think the whole "Space Marines +1" thing leads to resentment. I don't mind chapters getting unique things, but when it's over the top for no reason it kinda grates on you.
This about sums it up. In 2nd edition, Wolf Guard Terminators could field Assault Cannons and Cyclone Launchers *on the same model* just because they were Wolf Guard; nobody else could do that, and it made Wolves one of the most OP armies. In 3rd, basically everything they had was better than normal, for no reason. Long Fangs, in particular, could split fire which made them insane (this was before the Tau came out with Target Locks) just for being Long Fangs. They used to be the only army that got Venerable Dreadnoughts. Their characters were better in CC (in 3rd) than everyone else, because Space Vikings.
Everything about them is just better than the best. Like I said, I really like Wolves but never played them because it felt like cheating to pick something that was already good and then taken to 11 for basically no reason. Of course now it's gotten a bit stupid with Wolf this and Wolf that and Wolfy McWulf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf, but they're still Marines+1 which has never sat well with me because there's no reason for it. The only thing I can think of is that Jervis plays them (since they've been OP for 20 years, and nobody else has been with the Studio that long) but Jervis has said in the past he doesn't play any one thing in particular.
Basically Wolves have been the best of the best of the best for 20 years, for zero logical reason.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I love the idea of the Space Wolves. I love the background and fluff. What I don't like is some of their rules.
Their Devastators get 5 Heavies because.....Space Wolves.
They get 4 HQs because....Space Wolves.
I think the whole "Space Marines +1" thing leads to resentment. I don't mind chapters getting unique things, but when it's over the top for no reason it kinda grates on you.
The old long fangs were also stupidly expensive when compared to Marine Devistators. The Leader was 28 points and came with nothing more than PA and a Bolter. Its amazing how many people forget this part.
They get four HQs because they are supposed to be an army led by Heros. In third edition you had to take one HQ for every 750 points (round down) so anything over 1500 points had a mandatory 3 HQs. Two at 751 points. Its this way because its always been this way.
This about sums it up. In 2nd edition, Wolf Guard Terminators could field Assault Cannons and Cyclone Launchers *on the same model* just because they were Wolf Guard; nobody else could do that, and it made Wolves one of the most OP armies. In 3rd, basically everything they had was better than normal, for no reason. Long Fangs, in particular, could split fire which made them insane (this was before the Tau came out with Target Locks) just for being Long Fangs. They used to be the only army that got Venerable Dreadnoughts. Their characters were better in CC (in 3rd) than everyone else, because Space Vikings.
I never played second edition, so I have no personal experance with it, but as for third, they were better in some respects but much worse in others. But again, paid higher points for Long Fangs, and you need to be fair so please tell me you hate on Black Templars because they were the only ones to get Land Raider Crusaders. Or Blood Angles for being the only ones to get Dreads with 2D6 armor penetration and Psycher Dreads. Or BA and GK for being the only ones to get Stormravens for a time, or DA for their flyer. Someone has to get stuff first, SW were the first to get Venerable Dreads, but then marines got them, and ironclads... but where are the Ironclads in the newest SW codex? They also apparently lost all of their auspexs, special bolter ammo that Sternguard use and several other things.
Everything about them is just better than the best. Like I said, I really like Wolves but never played them because it felt like cheating to pick something that was already good and then taken to 11 for basically no reason. Of course now it's gotten a bit stupid with Wolf this and Wolf that and Wolfy McWulf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf, but they're still Marines+1 which has never sat well with me because there's no reason for it. The only thing I can think of is that Jervis plays them (since they've been OP for 20 years, and nobody else has been with the Studio that long) but Jervis has said in the past he doesn't play any one thing in particular.
Basically Wolves have been the best of the best of the best for 20 years, for zero logical reason.
Its funny how people keep bringing up the wolf name thing when there are now actually fewer wolf named wargear than there was in third. They have actually reduced that number. The only concession I'm willing to give on them being marines +1 for no reason is the Wolf Claw. I agree that it got its bonus for no apparent reason and was probably unwarranted.
They get four HQs because they are supposed to be an army led by Heros. In third edition you had to take one HQ for every 750 points (round down) so anything over 1500 points had a mandatory 3 HQs. Two at 751 points. Its this way because its always been this way.
And yet Tyranids suddenly care about having just the amount of 'heroes', so does Chaos, Orks, and other armies? Yeah no, that should have been dropped.
The only concession I'm willing to give on them being marines +1 for no reason is the Wolf Claw. I agree that it got its bonus for no apparent reason and was probably unwarranted.
Frost Blades/Axes were originally Power Weapons + 1
Grey Hunters were better then all other Tactical Marines, both in unique special abilities, and cheaper.
Long Fangs cheaper, more effective, there's plenty more but that's 5th:
2nd Edition: Higher WS, ability to take the assault cyclone terminators to break every army.
The old long fangs were also stupidly expensive when compared to Marine Devistators. The Leader was 28 points and came with nothing more than PA and a Bolter. Its amazing how many people forget this part.
*Checks his 3E books*
Long fang Pack Leaders: 36 points
Devastator Veteran Sarge: 30
Long Fangs have True Grit and Fire Control, and the Pack Leader can take special weapon options but the Veteran Sarge cannot, and thus is stuck with the bolter and chainsword. Oh and the Space Wolves can take a Land Raider for a transport, the space wolves are LD9 (including base unit) while the SM need the Veteran Sarge for LD9, the Pack leader is A1 while Veteran Sarge is A2 due to Terminator Honors.
Ribon fox that was awesome. Still going to start a space wolves army with puppies because I like dogs, but I might print that story and paste it in my codex hahahaa
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: My favourite part about all these threads is how, like any Space Wolf related thread, it turns into this almost witch hunt/religious pseudo debate. Their main anger seems to come from the fact that the source of powers for Rune Priests comes from a planet yet they remain in the Imperium. An Imperium headed by a "God Emperor" who has lived for centuries on a chair that they sacrifice thousands to in effort to fuel it. I just find myself astonished that out of all the insane, unrealistic, out of this world fiction, it's the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
"You're different and I hate you for it." - The generalization of what every person who has a vendetta against wolves says.
I just find it amusing that in a game meant for adults, it's the most childish who crawl out of the woodwork to complain about these things. Especially the ones complaining about the psyker powers that NO LONGER EXIST.
Instead of them turning their annoyance towards GW and its writers, they turn on the Space Wolves players and seem to have this goal in shaming them for wanting to play something different when every other chapter is the exact same as the last in a different paint scheme.
Who cares if it makes total sense? Who cares if it doesn't follow the status quo? I have one very big realization for anyone that complains about things like this.
Warhammer 40K IS A GAME.
A GAME FOR FUN.
If your life is so dominated by a game that it causes you to do nothing but complain, ridicule and berate your fellow players than I believe you have a much bigger problem in your own personal life that should take precedence over whether or not a passage from a book related to a game makes sense to you.
There are those among the Dakka community who know that this applies to them and whether or not they want to admit to it is up to them.
I fully expect to catch a lot of flame for this but before that happens, I'd like to point out that those who have these issues against the Space Wolves should be stating them in 40k Background and not General Discussion. The fact that it leaks into what could be considered the out of character section should show just how small minded some people can be.
Wow, that is some brilliant and completely invented persecution. You're using some really strong words, like "hate", and "witch hunt". Not liking a faction in the fluff is not the same as "shaming" or "berating" people who play them. Unless, of course, you believe that you actually are a Space Wolf. The reason why it is in General Discussion is because this thread is relevant to both the tabletop game and the background. You are turning a dislike of an element of a fictional setting into perceived personal attacks, and then getting amazingly defensive over it and using Caps Lock.
If you'd read the thread, there are plenty of reasons given for why people dislike the Wolves other than their hypocrisy regarding psychic powers, and it is far from the main one. That's what it is; hypocrisy. Their power could not possibly come from Fenris, but the Wolves get away with it by stubbornly insisting that they don't have psykers.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
Are you saying that all Chapters except the Space Wolves are "cookie-cutter"? If you are, surely you can see why that would be a problem. However, that's not it. No Chapter is "cookie-cutter". Something people dislike about the Wolves in the game is that they have the same things as every other Space Marine, except arbitrarily better. Then there's the absurd overuse of wolf-related terminology. Their planet is already called Fenris, and they themselves have "Wolves" in their name, but this is far from enough. They have to ride wolves, name absolutely everything after wolves - they even become wolfmen, in their own wolfy version of the Black Rage!
Frozen Ocean wrote: Wow, that is some brilliant and completely invented persecution. You're using some really strong words, like "hate", and "witch hunt". Not liking a faction in the fluff is not the same as "shaming" or "berating" people who play them. Unless, of course, you believe that you actually are a Space Wolf. The reason why it is in General Discussion is because this thread is relevant to both the tabletop game and the background. You are turning a dislike of an element of a fictional setting into perceived personal attacks, and then getting amazingly defensive over it and using Caps Lock.
If you'd read the thread, there are plenty of reasons given for why people dislike the Wolves other than their hypocrisy regarding psychic powers, and it is far from the main one. That's what it is; hypocrisy. Their power could not possibly come from Fenris, but the Wolves get away with it by stubbornly insisting that they don't have psykers.
At what point is it invented persecution? I've been on Dakka little more than a year and what seems like at least nine out of ten times, any Space Wolf thread posted devolves into people criticizing Space Wolves. And I use such strong words because they are completely applicable because I have seen several instances that they apply to. Not to mention the number of times that people have gone on to imply that anyone that plays and supports Space Wolves is stupid for perpetuating a chapter that they don't agree with. The only reason that anyone could not see this is if they in fact were one of those people who has done so before. And if my use of Caps Lock for wanting to point something out bothers you so much, I'll be sure to avoid it in the future.
And I have been following the thread but that's not the point, it's that this thread has become like every other thread with Space Wolves in that it's come down to one group demanding that Space Wolves players justify what they are or admit to being something they aren't. Just because their powers weren't the same as every other chapter didn't mean they were some spawn of chaos. Unless GW says otherwise then that's just how it is. I haven't seen a single instance of a Space Wolves player mentioning the Rune Priest's abilities came from their home planet without someone popping up to try and force them into being something they aren't just because the other person doesn't like how GW has done something. There are tons of SW players that openly admit that the codex desperately needs some aspects to be changed and I'm among them and hoping that the next codex is more in line with the other chapters while still having some independence.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
Are you saying that all Chapters except the Space Wolves are "cookie-cutter"? If you are, surely you can see why that would be a problem. However, that's not it. No Chapter is "cookie-cutter". Something people dislike about the Wolves in the game is that they have the same things as every other Space Marine, except arbitrarily better. Then there's the absurd overuse of wolf-related terminology. Their planet is already called Fenris, and they themselves have "Wolves" in their name, but this is far from enough. They have to ride wolves, name absolutely everything after wolves - they even become wolfmen, in their own wolfy version of the Black Rage!
Every other chapter must be the exact same since no one ever seems to complain about the things they get or do that no one else does. I never see anyone complain about Blood Angels getting psyker dreadnoughts or Dark Angels having Xeno allies when their fluff is adamant that they have no care for any xenos whatsoever. Or all the things that Codex Marines get to bring to the table that SW don't. It's only Wolves who face that persecution even though their fluff explains it all, it's just that people don't like the explanation so they sit around, whine about it and get in any Space Wolves player's face and force it down their throat that their chosen army is wrong and they have to agree or be forced to listen to more complaints.
I will agree with you on the over-wolfing of everything. I've said before in other threads that I hope that with the new codex comes a name change along with the new codex. I'm praying that they start to lean more towards the viking side of their fluff and away from the wolf side. But even here you've ended with complaining about the wolves but not about the Blood Angels. It's fine for them to turn into vampires and feast on people in a cannibalistic act that would surely have them executed for such an act but the Space Wolves similarly succumbing to the effects of their gene seed is too ridiculous to comprehend. I wasn't even trying to defend the fluff for being what it is in my last post and you still took it upon yourself to point out all the reasons you think that Space Wolves are wrong, which only goes to prove my point that anyone who says something even remotely positive about Space Wolves is instantly bombarded with reasons why they're wrong.
Actually, the Blood Angel hate during 3rd edition was legendary. It got to the point where part of setting up the game I got to hear each and every so-called ofense a BA players committed, followed quickly by "But your not like that." GW balanced that out by ignoring them for so long most people forgot. There was a brief hate resurgence during 5th, but that was more panic about a new codex than actual power on the tabletop.
The Space Wolves have the unfortunate situation of GW overpowering them with each codex or ignoring them. So each new codex the bandwagoners jump on play hard and hurt the SW's rep and then move on to the new shiny leaving the (real) SWs to take the heat. It doesn't help that most SW players I've met really identify with the character of their army and consequently take greater offense to criticism.
Examples of invented persecution will be highlighted in olive.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I've been on Dakka little more than a year and what seems like at least nine out of ten times, any Space Wolf thread posted devolves into people criticizing Space Wolves.
This thread is six pages long and is specifically about why people don't like Space Wolves (why they are "neglected"), so this complaint does not apply here. However, this is not because the Space Wolves and their players are the target of some unjust conspiracy, but because some people don't like Space Wolves. You're acting like this is somehow unfair.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: And I use such strong words because they are completely applicable because I have seen several instances that they apply to.
You've seen instances where the following are all "completely applicable" regarding Space Wolf players?
witch hunt
anger
"[Space Wolf players are] different and I hate [them] for it."
vendetta
childish
annoyance
they turn on the Space Wolves players
shaming
[people who don't like the Space Wolves] do nothing but complain
ridicule
berate
flame
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Not to mention the number of times that people have gone on to imply that anyone that plays and supports Space Wolves is stupid for perpetuating a chapter that they don't agree with.
Nobody has said this.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: The only reason that anyone could not see this is if they in fact were one of those people who has done so before.
So everyone who disagrees with you is one of your persecutors and they will never see it? Right.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: And if my use of Caps Lock for wanting to point something out bothers you so much, I'll be sure to avoid it in the future.
I was pointing out that you were specifically telling people that it's not a big deal by using Caps Lock, which is generally a sign of over-reacting. In short, you were making a big deal out of telling people not to make a big deal of it. In your own words, if 40k is just a game, why are you so upset about people disliking your faction?
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: And I have been following the thread but that's not the point, it's that this thread has become like every other thread with Space Wolves in that it's come down to one group demanding that Space Wolves players justify what they are or admit to being something they aren't.
Seriously, look at what you're saying. Nobody is "demanding" anything. You're making it sound like Space Wolf players are victims being blackmailed into not testifying against their victimisers, or you're under threat of being tortured by the Inquisition until you testify you're a witch. Also, actually, it is the point - I said that in direct response to your assertion that the main problem people have is the Rune Priest thing, which a read of this thread (in which people have voiced their problems with the Space Wolves) would show.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Just because their powers weren't the same as every other chapter didn't mean they were some spawn of chaos.
Nobody has said this, unless you are taking my previous post about Fenris being a Daemon World completely wrong. My point was that planets don't have innate power. Not that Fenris actually is a Daemon World, but that it would have to be a Daemon World in order to have its own magical power and therefore Fenris does not, because Fenris is not a Daemon World. You take this much further to imply, all on your own, that this means Space Wolves are "some spawn of Chaos".
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: Unless GW says otherwise then that's just how it is. I haven't seen a single instance of a Space Wolves player mentioning the Rune Priest's abilities came from their home planet without someone popping up to try and force them into being something they aren't just because the other person doesn't like how GW has done something. There are tons of SW players that openly admit that the codex desperately needs some aspects to be changed and I'm among them and hoping that the next codex is more in line with the other chapters while still having some independence.
The point is that nobody actually believes them, the reason being that it completely does not fit into 40k whatsoever. All magic comes from the Warp, which kind of a hugely important aspect of the setting. Fenris just randomly having its own unrelated magic is completely absurd. I didn't think any Space Wolves players genuinely believed it.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: the Wolves of Fenris who catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there.
Are you saying that all Chapters except the Space Wolves are "cookie-cutter"? If you are, surely you can see why that would be a problem. However, that's not it. No Chapter is "cookie-cutter". Something people dislike about the Wolves in the game is that they have the same things as every other Space Marine, except arbitrarily better. Then there's the absurd overuse of wolf-related terminology. Their planet is already called Fenris, and they themselves have "Wolves" in their name, but this is far from enough. They have to ride wolves, name absolutely everything after wolves - they even become wolfmen, in their own wolfy version of the Black Rage!
Every other chapter must be the exact same since no one ever seems to complain about the things they get or do that no one else does. I never see anyone complain about Blood Angels getting psyker dreadnoughts or Dark Angels having Xeno allies when their fluff is adamant that they have no care for any xenos whatsoever. Or all the things that Codex Marines get to bring to the table that SW don't.
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What about Kaldor Draigo or Marneus Calgar, whose fluff is continually mocked for its stupidity? When the Allies chart came out in 6th edition, chief among the complaints were those about the almost random nature of the incredibly fluff-breaking ally levels. Also, the Librarian Dreadnought is a unique unit in the Blood Angels army, which is to be expected from a variant Codex. What would not be well-received is if their regular Dreadnoughts were cheaper and could take more and better weapons than everyone elses', with the only explanation being "because they're the Blood Angels".
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: It's only Wolves who face that persecution even though their fluff explains it all, it's just that people don't like the explanation so they sit around, whine about it and get in any Space Wolves player's face and force it down their throat that their chosen army is wrong and they have to agree or be forced to listen to more complaints.
Kaldor Draigo's fluff is explained. He just carved his master's name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, is all. Are you still talking about the Rune Priest thing? Nobody is saying that your "chosen army is wrong".
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: But even here you've ended with complaining about the wolves but not about the Blood Angels. It's fine for them to turn into vampires and feast on people in a cannibalistic act that would surely have them executed for such an act but the Space Wolves similarly succumbing to the effects of their gene seed is too ridiculous to comprehend.
Is this a thread about the Blood Angels? No. Did I say that the Space Wolves having a Black Rage equivalent was "too ridiculous to comprehend"? No. I mentioned it as part of my criticism of, as you say, the "over-wolfing of everything". Their Black Rage equivalent is that they literally turn into wolf-men. They're called Wulfen! The Flaw in the Blood Angels is a huge part of their fluff, and is all to do with their Primarch and whatnot. It is a big part of them. The Blood Angels also don't become angel-like when they succumb to the Black Rage, and the Red Thirst is obviously vampire-related, but it's comes off more as raw madness and cannibalism. The Space Wolves, on the other hand, just have wolf-men because hey, that happens sometimes and wolves are cool. Wolf wolf wolf wolf. However, the Blood Angels have guys with nipple-armour and once almost wiped themselves out by suicidally attacking a Space Hulk - then, around 600 years later, they did exactly the same thing.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I wasn't even trying to defend the fluff for being what it is in my last post and you still took it upon yourself to point out all the reasons you think that Space Wolves are wrong, which only goes to prove my point that anyone who says something even remotely positive about Space Wolves is instantly bombarded with reasons why they're wrong.
I was responding to your statement that they "catch the most flak for not being a cookie cutter of the other nine million chapters out there" by detailing some of the criticisms given in this very thread, which you then took to be an unwarranted attack. I don't think the Space Wolves are "wrong". Your point, however, is completely wrong. You can say plenty positive about the Space Wolves without being "instantly bombarded with reasons why" you're "wrong". Nobody is telling you that you are "wrong" for liking the Space Wolves as they are. Furthermore, just because someone doesn't like aspects of them doesn't mean they dislike them, or hate them, as you might say. Nobody hates or dislikes Space Wolf players for being Space Wolf players.
Did you know that sometimes people like things that other people don't? Probably the most significant internal divide between players of the same faction in 40k is between those who like the "Newcrons" and those who don't. This doesn't mean they actually hate each other.
EDIT:
Crimson Devil wrote: It doesn't help that most SW players I've met really identify with the character of their army and consequently take greater offense to criticism.
Crimson Devil wrote: It doesn't help that most SW players I've met really identify with the character of their army and consequently take greater offense to criticism.
You also have to take in to account Space Wolf players get hounded for their choice more often than most other players. I started collecting SW in 2nd edition because I love Wolves and I love Norse things and I prefer CC to shooting so it was a blatantly obvious choice. One of the first things I remember is the shop keeper railing at me for collecting the puppies. I didn't even know if they were a powerful army or not (at the time I was new to the game and simply assumed the armies were balanced).
I also collect half a dozen other armies and have never heard as much whinging from other players about those armies as I have about the SW.
I understand some people don't like SW and I dislike a lot of the aspects of their fluff and presentation (I don't like the absurd wolfiness either), but people love to attack SW's with such malice that it's not wonder SW players sometimes get a bit defensive.
This thread has become a flame war. I think that space wolves are an amazing army and I hope their codex does well. I hope they get some cool formations and the pre-order bonus is a real life battle axe and a wooden barrel cast tankard.
I want to see more wolves on the field and dammit I'll ally with you and totally not ever abandon you in the first turn of the battle. Promise.
Crimson Devil wrote: It doesn't help that most SW players I've met really identify with the character of their army and consequently take greater offense to criticism.
You also have to take in to account Space Wolf players get hounded for their choice more often than most other players. I started collecting SW in 2nd edition because I love Wolves and I love Norse things and I prefer CC to shooting so it was a blatantly obvious choice. One of the first things I remember is the shop keeper railing at me for collecting the puppies. I didn't even know if they were a powerful army or not (at the time I was new to the game and simply assumed the armies were balanced).
I also collect half a dozen other armies and have never heard as much whinging from other players about those armies as I have about the SW.
I understand some people don't like SW and I dislike a lot of the aspects of their fluff and presentation (I don't like the absurd wolfiness either), but people love to attack SW's with such malice that it's not wonder SW players sometimes get a bit defensive.
I own a Heldrake. I own a Riptide. I may own a Revenant in a month or two. Should I start feeling like a special snowflake that everyone hates?
Frozen Ocean wrote: I own a Heldrake. I own a Riptide. I may own a Revenant in a month or two. Should I start feeling like a special snowflake that everyone hates?
EDIT: It's hardly a flame war, Duo.
What are you on about? I never said anything about feeling like a special snowflake, I'm just talking about the reality if SW's get ragged on with such malice for so long that you'll start having people being defensive. You get Tau players being all defensive as well at times, but that's a more recent thing since they became top dogs because of GW's pathetic ability to balance their game.
Also, those other things are nothing alike. People have been ragging on Space Wolves as a whole for the nearly 20 years I've been collecting. It's not the same as people whinging about the latest power unit that you bought for whatever reason.
Simple reality, if you attack something a lot, prepare to hear the occasional defensive person.
People disliking space wolves for having awful background and silly rules is not some attack on the player for daring to choose the faction. People in general are not going to like really bad background pieces like Draigo or Calgar holding off an entire ork army by himself. Nor are they going to like when an army gets a kinds of silly bonuses just cause. Also space wolves don't get ragged on nearly as much as Tau, Eldar and Necron players IMO. Have you seen the sheer number of tau hate threads or how people constantly say how they don't fit in 40k and should be removed. Shame really since they are rather interesting faction for not being exactly the same as everyone else.
Frozen Ocean wrote: I own a Heldrake. I own a Riptide. I may own a Revenant in a month or two. Should I start feeling like a special snowflake that everyone hates?
EDIT: It's hardly a flame war, Duo.
What are you on about? I never said anything about feeling like a special snowflake, I'm just talking about the reality if SW's get ragged on with such malice for so long that you'll start having people being defensive. You get Tau players being all defensive as well at times, but that's a more recent thing since they became top dogs because of GW's pathetic ability to balance their game.
Also, those other things are nothing alike. People have been ragging on Space Wolves as a whole for the nearly 20 years I've been collecting. It's not the same as people whinging about the latest power unit that you bought for whatever reason.
Simple reality, if you attack something a lot, prepare to hear the occasional defensive person.
It's different when the person is being defensive of themselves, and treating any and all criticism of the Space Wolves as a serious personal attack. "Malice" is a very strong word. People dislike all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. It's okay to be defensive about something you care about, but it's important to defend the actual topic and not yourself. It should be "the Space Wolves are actually really interesting and here's why" or just "I like their background", not "we Space Wolf players are much-maligned pariahs, outcasts, hated and misunderstood". Honestly, making it so personal is really strange. Not that you are, mind, but Crimson Devil's comment suggests that this is relatively common. The same applies for everyone else, too. Blood Angel, Tyranid, Dark Eldar, whatever - getting actually offended is totally uncalled for.
I used those models as examples because they are probably the most disliked units in the game at the moment (the Heldrake less than in 2012, but still). I was trying to point out that it would be silly for me to get actually offended if someone started talking about how they don't think Heldrakes fit into the Chaos fluff, or whatever.
), however, would be an awesome thing.
), I'm hoping for some benevolent neglect. If the only thing that 
