Hm, I don't know about the other subforums, but 40k at least has a terrible attitude on this forum...
So, I was thinking. Why don't we organise a dakka-wide event, once a year. Say, the second week in July, when everyone's either miserable from the summer being too hot, or the winter being too cold.
During this week, only positive, optimistic comments and threads should be posted. If someone asks for advice, only give advice that pushes them towards doing something, rather than stopping doing something.
Free speech - when there's no longer a need for the government to censor dissenting opinions, because the citizens have taken to doing it themselves!
When you feel the need to create a special space where only happy-happy thoughts are allowed, you know there's a big problem, and sweeping it under the rug won't make it go away, it will only make it worse.
Pre-empting the following phrases "white knight", "cool aid", " casual mafia". If you post something on daka, someone else has a god-given right to hurl negative bs all over it. It will always be this way.
notprop seems to only be happy when he's pissing and moaning about other people pissing and moaning.
I'm not for a positive week at all. I think there's sufficient good stuff in the hobby world to be positive about all the time. And sufficient bad stuff in the hobby world to be negative about all the time and each of use gets to pick what we're interested in.
Seriously, check out the miniature painting subforums. They're incredibly positive and helpful all the time because they're about doing the actual enjoyable part of the hobby rather than thinking about the latest dumb thing someone in the industry did.
So in other words you want people to either lie or not give their opinion. Sorry, no. People aren't negative because they're a-holes (well, maybe some people might be, but not that I've seen), they're negative when there's valid reasons for negativity, and it's quite funny that I tend to see the negative crowd put forth actual reasons and evidence, while the positive crowd tends to just use anecdotes or complain about people being negative.
If somebody posts and says they're thinking of starting 40k, they should get both the positive and the negative, not just positive to steer them towards spending $400 just to start playing a bloated game. The fact there's so much negativity surrounding GW and 40k, here and elsewhere, should indicate that there are major problems not just a small minority ranting and raving. Ignoring those people doesn't make the problem go away.
Basically, if you don't like the negativity then avoid those threads; they exist for a reason, and the solution isn't to just stifle all the negative posts. That's part of the reason there is so much negativity, since that's basically what GW did with its own forums and social media.
You almost never read any negativity in Painting. The worst you'll get is "umm mate? That's, uhm, not a tutorial. Here, let me get a mod to move it for you".
Wonderful, wonderful people.
I'm all for positivity. I listen to Bad Brains all the time. I think that this forum, however, is a place for some people to vent, and I think that's important. There is plenty of good stuff about the hobby *cough* painting sub *cough*, but don't worry about the griping. Its healthy, to a point, and these pisser/moaners are way more passionate and positive (and oddly hopeful) than the people I know IRL.
melkorthetonedeaf wrote: You almost never read any negativity in Painting. The worst you'll get is "umm mate? That's, uhm, not a tutorial. Here, let me get a mod to move it for you".
Wonderful, wonderful people.
I'm all for positivity. I listen to Bad Brains all the time. I think that this forum, however, is a place for some people to vent, and I think that's important. There is plenty of good stuff about the hobby *cough* painting sub *cough*, but don't worry about the griping. Its healthy, to a point, and these pisser/moaners are way more passionate and positive (and oddly hopeful) than the people I know IRL.
Let's not beat around the bush here - I am almost completely certain that the OP is talking about 40k General, where most of the threads are negative pointing out the flaws of 40k and/or GW, and it seems this has riled up the pro-40k crowd because it seems like they get drowned in a sea of negative posters.
The idea is to force people to think about good things! Not to make them 'lie or shut up', but to jigger their brains a little and try to find something to celebrate.
Its very easy to fall into the trap of complaining and talking things down - but past a point it stops being therapeutic and just winds you up all the more.
Freedom of speech, heh. Cute concept, but are you really free to speak if even someone suggesting positivity is bombarded with 'no, stfu'?
Well, anyway. It was an idea.
WarOne, what would you suggest the aim of such a thread would be? A kind of "post something good about the hobby today!" type thing?
It seems to have quietened a bit over the last few days anyway. If GW does something new and just as silly as normal, any promise for a good week won't hold ; p
Many of the negativie posts in 40k general were by players complaining about people complaining about 40k. Far worse than the quantity however is what was in those posts - rather than criticism of a company, it was insults of other players which is inexcusable.
If you don't enter threads titled something like:
- A possible cure for your GW hate
- Why I like 40k better than some of the alternative games
- Opinions of the Ork Codex
- Why does 40k have to be Competitive?
- GW's new business model - cutting up a codex and selling supplements to rebuild it.
you'll manage to avoid 90% of the criticism of GW and the insults of other players. ie. any thread regarding peoples opinions on things GW does where there is substantial opinion that GW does it poorly.
Regarding painting and modeling being better, you still have people suggesting you don't use GW paints, with criticisms including that they're overpriced, the pots are bad, they change ranges which screws colour matching and so on. It doesn't degenerate however because no one throws insults at people there. Those criticisms of the paints come up every time people ask about paint ranges, just as criticisms of GWs rules come up every time there's a rule discussion.
I think the 40k subforum being a a cesspool of rancorous, vitriolic rantings is great. I hate what GW has become. Clearly, I'm not the only one. It's great to be reminded that hobbyists can be critical and discerning.
If you want sunshine, there are plenty of cheery places on dakka. I get that negativity is tiresome to some, but I find the acerbic 40k posts to be a delightful counterbalance to the incessant bleating of the "come what may, happy go lucky money-sheep".
melkorthetonedeaf wrote: You almost never read any negativity in Painting. The worst you'll get is "umm mate? That's, uhm, not a tutorial. Here, let me get a mod to move it for you".
Wonderful, wonderful people.
And a lot of the time it's the same people who are negative in the 40k General forum who are positive in the Painting and Modelling forums. If people were all negative all the time, they'd eventually get bored and leave. But since there are aspects they like (eg. painting and modelling) they hang around and say positive things in those forums and negative things on the topics they don't like, which tends to be "40k General" because 40k generally sucks
For the most part, there are two things GW can be praised for - models and fluff. For the former, drop by the Painting & Modelling subforum, you'll find nary a negative post there. For the latter, visit the 40K Background forum - same thing.
Everything for which GW gets flak is everything else and it all winds up in General. There's no point in bringing up models and fluff down here, because those topics have their own subforums. Is it, then, such a wonder that General is mostly negative?
I'm so happy that GW finally because so awful that it pushed me, a 20+ year veteran, to go looking for other games. I'm happy that those games turned out to be so much better than anything GW puts out!
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry. There's no factor accounting for antisocial behavior except for moderation, which seems to only take effect as a penalizing force and not a preventative one.
Ultimately, a lot of people on dakkadakka could likely benefit from a good solid run of cognitive behavior therapy. There seems to be a general unwillingness to consider a grey/balanced response to situations. Black and white rules the roost.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry..
Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they feel so they voice their opinions to the community.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry..
Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they fell so they voice their opinions to the community.
Add in the fact much of the "antosocial behaviour" and ad-hominem comes from the pro GW side. All us "haters" seem to be capable of having rational discussion with well made points. The standard response is pretty much "suck it up hater".
MWHistorian wrote: Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they feel so they voice their opinions to the community.
I sympathize with the sentiment of frustration you're expressing. However, why not consider the rest of what I posted?
MWHistorian wrote: Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they feel so they voice their opinions to the community.
I sympathize with the sentiment of frustration you're expressing. However, why not consider the rest of what I posted?
Because your very premise, as stated by that first sentence, was incorrect.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry. There's no factor accounting for antisocial behavior except for moderation, which seems to only take effect as a penalizing force and not a preventative one.
That's only part of it, the other (IMO larger) part is that people can sit down and write well considered responses which you can't do in casual discussion with someone face to face. This naturally makes discussions online a far more in depth back and forth than face to face discussions where you don't leave for 15 minutes after each encounter to consider your opponents argument and write up a retort.
There seems to be a general unwillingness to consider a grey/balanced response to situations. Black and white rules the roost.
I somewhat disagree. People are far more grey in their opinions than you might think, just because the discussions appear more black and white (even that is arguable really) doesn't mean peoples' opinions are entirely black and white. The reality of internet discussion is the "grey" tends to get sorted out early and the black and white opinions are the ones that drag on.
MWHistorian wrote: Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they feel so they voice their opinions to the community.
I sympathize with the sentiment of frustration you're expressing. However, why not consider the rest of what I posted?
Because your very premise, as stated by that first sentence, was incorrect.
Let's be honest here, you didn't refute my point, you offered a countering opinion. Neither of us have any actual quantitative evidence to support our arguments, so can we please not pretend to be maintaining any sort of empirical argument.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry..
Or The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they fell so they voice their opinions to the community.
Add in the fact much of the "antosocial behaviour" and ad-hominem comes from the pro GW side. All us "haters" seem to be capable of having rational discussion with well made points. The standard response is pretty much "suck it up hater".
I think this comes down to the psychology of people who are still enamored by GW, you are attacking something THEY love so even when those attacks are genuine and logical, the response is often emotional.
Like arguing the rules are ok and you're just playing it wrong instead of accepting that better written rules benefits everyone more even the people who like to play non-competitive, open, casual games too.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: That's only part of it, the other (IMO larger) part is that people can sit down and write well considered responses which you can't do in casual discussion with someone face to face. This naturally makes discussions online a far more in depth back and forth than face to face discussions where you don't leave for 15 minutes after each encounter to consider your opponents argument and write up a retort.
This is an interesting response, however I'm not sure I fully agree. I feel you're suggesting the best possible outcome for internet discussion, that all participants will engage the positive aspects of internet / text based discussion. There are also negative attributes that you indirectly eluded to by mentioning the face to face. Discussion on the internet loses tone, eye contact, etc. Though I am not any degree of a psychologist, I suspect that these qualities offer a lot in advertising the posture of individuals in discussion.
I somewhat disagree. People are far more grey in their opinions than you might think, just because the discussions appear more black and white (even that is arguable really) doesn't mean peoples' opinions are entirely black and white. The reality of internet discussion is the "grey" tends to get sorted out early and the black and white opinions are the ones that drag on.
You may be right on that. Maybe then, what would be good to see, would be more recognition by the parties involved of the sentiments they share, rather than a purely adversarial, to the throat, style of discussion? It might help to forge a more common experience.
MWHistorian wrote: Or
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of many people being very dissatisfied with a product they once loved and want to love again and feel frustrated that there's no way to tell the company how they feel so they voice their opinions to the community.
I sympathize with the sentiment of frustration you're expressing. However, why not consider the rest of what I posted?
Because your very premise, as stated by that first sentence, was incorrect.
Let's be honest here, you didn't refute my point, you offered a countering opinion. Neither of us have any actual quantitative evidence to support our arguments, so can we please not pretend to be maintaining any sort of empirical argument.
Here's emperical. I know my thoughts and why I do what I do. What was stated on how I think is not how I think. After reading many posts of people that share my opinion, that is now how they think either.
The frequent acrid discussions on this site are probably the result of online discussion being anonymous and having such a low bar for entry. That's insulting people who have genuine criticisms for GW just because they don't share your opinions. Right off the bat you're claiming moral and intellectual superiority which leaves out any room for a rational discussion. There's no factor accounting for antisocial behavior except for moderation, I'm not anti-social because I voice my complaints about a product. By definition that's incorrect which seems to only take effect as a penalizing force and not a preventative one. I don't think the mods should take premptive action against something the might happen. I don't want to live in a police state and I don't want my opinions controlled. If they were, I would no longer post on Dakka. If someone breaks a rule, they get dealt with, not before they break a rule. What you want is for anyone with a negative opinion of GW to shut up and go away. No.
Ultimately, a lot of people on dakkadakka could likely benefit from a good solid run of cognitive behavior therapy. Again, here's a baseless insult and also vague reference to you being superior to anyone that disagrees with you. There seems to be a general unwillingness to consider a grey/balanced response to situations. Black and white rules the roost. It's the black and white issues that are the most glaring and so get the most attention. The gray areas are discussed quite a bit. For example. I love the fluff beind 40k, I'll keep reading the novels, but I think the rules are a bucket of slop. My opinion of GW and its games are far more nuanced than you believe, but when I spend half the time fending off insults from GW apologists it doesn't leave a lot of time to discuss anything you consider "Gray."
I'm not altogether sure where your frustration is coming from. I feel like you read a bit too far into my own views on the "positive vs negative on GW" divide. I don't see where I singled out my views on either position in my original post. If you could show me how you jumped to your conclusion, I would appreciate it.
I cant' help but feel that it's convenient that in making a post about peoples' unwillingness to consider other peoples' views, I managed to inspire such a back and forth.
I quite like the idea of a positive thinking week. We even just had this business about facebook and their little experiment - seeing negative stuff can affect your mood negatively.
Criticism is dearly important and people need to remember they aren't the things they like, but at the same time it's good to not miss the forest for the metaphorical trees, and being positive and constructive can help with that.
Still, you can have a positive thinking day whenever you want!
AllSeeingSkink wrote: That's only part of it, the other (IMO larger) part is that people can sit down and write well considered responses which you can't do in casual discussion with someone face to face. This naturally makes discussions online a far more in depth back and forth than face to face discussions where you don't leave for 15 minutes after each encounter to consider your opponents argument and write up a retort.
This is an interesting response, however I'm not sure I fully agree. I feel you're suggesting the best possible outcome for internet discussion, that all participants will engage the positive aspects of internet / text based discussion. There are also negative attributes that you indirectly eluded to by mentioning the face to face.
I'm not sure how I'm suggesting that, I'm just saying it's a fact of written communication that you get long and in depth responses that last days and some people write thousands of words worth of content. When people can sit and consider a response, they will sit and consider a response. This is both a positive and a negative in and of itself, you can't just write off long arguments as being due to anonymity when that's not the only factor.
When people start actually being arses to each other, yeah, that might be a side effect of anonymity. Though I think it's equally a side effect of simply getting far to involved in a discussion that you start to get frustrated and you start venting when you probably should have left several pages ago when you exhausted your actual arguments and no one was changing their opinion based on your arguments.
Real life face to face wargaming discussions simply don't go that far largely because of the nature of face to face means you don't go in to such strenuous detail.
I'm not saying anonymity isn't part of the reason insults get thrown around, but I personally don't think it's the primary driving factor.
Discussion on the internet loses tone, eye contact, etc. Though I am not any degree of a psychologist, I suspect that these qualities offer a lot in advertising the posture of individuals in discussion.
I'm totally for not inferring a tone in internet discussions unless it is blatantly obvious (which it sometimes might be). This has little to do with people being negative toward their perceived negative aspects of GW though.
I think one of the first issues is that people attribute a lot more negativity, toxicity, and other bad emotions to numerous posts that are not bad for the community. Having a well reasoned, critical opinions of a product from a company within the wargaming hobby shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If there are seemingly too many of these posts, the issues lies not with the people on the boards, but instead with the reasons that are common with all the posts.
The second issue is that there's an equal amount of negativity and backlash from people tired of the negativity. I've seen as much vitriol thrown back at people who have laid out why they have issues with GW or 40k.
The solution isn't to impose some sort of 'Double Plus Good Happy Thoughts Only Week', but to collectively post better, whether its a 'negative' point or a 'positive' point. While GW has demonstrated time and time and again they have no clue the internet even exists and that all of the posts here will never seen by anyone at GW, the same is also true for any positive reinforcement posted on this forum. Then again, the whole point of a forum is to discuss things, some of which will be serious, others silly, some positive, others less so.
I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.
Blacksails wrote: I think one of the first issues is that people attribute a lot more negativity, toxicity, and other bad emotions to numerous posts that are not bad for the community. Having a well reasoned, critical opinions of a product from a company within the wargaming hobby shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. If there are seemingly too many of these posts, the issues lies not with the people on the boards, but instead with the reasons that are common with all the posts.
The second issue is that there's an equal amount of negativity and backlash from people tired of the negativity. I've seen as much vitriol thrown back at people who have laid out why they have issues with GW or 40k.
The solution isn't to impose some sort of 'Double Plus Good Happy Thoughts Only Week', but to collectively post better, whether its a 'negative' point or a 'positive' point. While GW has demonstrated time and time and again they have no clue the internet even exists and that all of the posts here will never seen by anyone at GW, the same is also true for any positive reinforcement posted on this forum. Then again, the whole point of a forum is to discuss things, some of which will be serious, others silly, some positive, others less so.
I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.
I think Jojo monkey boy was pretty clear with his insults.
I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.
Which I covered by saying
collectively post better
Hoping that people would infer that insults are generally a bad way of going about making a point.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I don't think it's an effect of anonymity - check out some of the truly vile stuff people are willing to say under their legal names on facebook and the like (besides, we're not anonymous here exactly, we're pseudonymous). Insofar as people being more hostile in online discussion exists, it's - I think - an effect of having trouble empathising with another person because they're not in front of you and so you're missing so many visual and audible cues that trigger empathy.
I think Jojo monkey boy was pretty clear with his insults.
Sorry, I don't know why you're addressing that to me! FWIW though, I don't think he has insulted anyone.
...maybe you need to think about his posts more positively?
I loved reading the first page..... it was wonderfully entertaining.
If you don't want to embrace the idea, then don't, but please don't start going on about freedom of speech and democracy and... well.. everything else that I had to wade through in that sea of victimhood.
I agree with Notprop, and have nothing but scorn for crybabies.
Its clearly only a matter of time before someone mentions a certain tiny dictator.......
Collectively being more polite would definitely make the forums a better place. Terms like white knight and apologists and money sheep are no more polite than haters whiners and negative thinkers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also includes terms like toxic, hypocrite and liar.
milkboy wrote: Collectively being more polite would definitely make the forums a better place. Terms like white knight and apologists and money sheep are no more polite than haters whiners and negative thinkers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also includes terms like toxic, hypocrite and liar.
"Apologist" isn't a negative term.
a person who defends or supports something (such as a religion, cause, or organization) that is being criticized or attacked by other people
So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!
Spoiler:
Labeling reality has "negativity" just because blinders are on doesn't change a thing. You see it with many other topics far outside the world of gaming; it's part of our psychology. Taking a step back to realize how bad a company like Games Workshop is, more so when the market as a whole features companies offering an overall superior service for less cost and higher value, tends to point towards the fact of the matter. I did something in the force of positive; I am selling all my 40k and moving on. I still have an interest in the game if it ever gets around streamlining 5E and not labeling the customer as a walking wallet.
Remember, you're dealing with a company that said the hobby was buying their product in a court of law. Why are people still defending them?
So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!
YES WE CAN GUYS! BELIEVE IN THE DREAM!!!
Seriously, "post better" is the best suggestion here. Its totally cool to feel frustrated at something you've pumped a bazillionty dollars into. It's NOT okay to slag someone who happens to disagree. Use "I" statements. Do some deep breathing. Have an orgasm or two. Life is beautifully ugly, and our hobby is adorable and fun, even if it includes pages of nerd rage.
Whilst there is certainly an amount of negativity surrounding GW and its product there are plenty of games and companies discussed on Dakka in a much more positive light.
I would suggest the 40k and WHFB sub forums are much better places to discuss, you know, 40k and WHFB in a more structured way rather than trying to argue the toss in discussions.
Well, I'm certainly having fun painting my Anglo-Danes for SAGA, and I'm looking forward to taking part in a multiplayer game of Wings of War/Glory tomorrow.
And I'm positive that I've been GW free for over two years now!
Random Dude wrote: I support the idea, but let's be honest most people won't.
Considering you started two threads in 40k general (The sky is falling and I'm tired of all the negativity) that increased the negativity substantially with personal attacks against players, that seems hard to believe.
Random Dude wrote: I agree that critical opinions are a good thing. The danger occurs when people start making personal attacks against others simply for having a different opinion. And it's not just the negative posters who do it, both parties are equally guilty.
No it's really not both sides equally. It's: 1. people complain about GW 2. people are insulted for complaining about GW 3. people defend their stance for why they're complaining about GW 4. they get insulted again. 5. then *maybe* they return the insults
That's a common trend in all the negative threads recently, which as I mentioned you were a part of instigating.
TheKbob wrote: I'm still having fun painting Games Workshop miniatures. I'm also having fun selling my armies to people who will have fun with them in turn.
Positive!
I've said repeatedly that GW does some things right. One was the new SM bundles which are decent value and I hope a step in the right direction. Which ties in to what you're doing, because I'm painting them atm too and enjoying it ; ) Though every time I paint my Blood Ravens I have to play some more Dawn of War 1/2 again ; p
TheKbob wrote: I'm still having fun painting Games Workshop miniatures. I'm also having fun selling my armies to people who will have fun with them in turn.
Positive!
I've said repeatedly that GW does some things right. One was the new SM bundles which are decent value and I hope a step in the right direction. Which ties in to what you're doing, because I'm painting them atm too and enjoying it ; ) Though every time I paint my Blood Ravens I have to play some more Dawn of War 1/2 again ; p
Nice. Maybe I should keep my box of Space Marines I was going to sell to be Blood Ravens. Not hurting for the cash....
OP, just choose one week out of the year and for that week, stay away from the GW related forums. There is little if any negativity in the forums for other games, or in places like the previously mentioned painting/modelling forum
mattyrm wrote:If you don't want to embrace the idea, then don't, but please don't start going on about freedom of speech and democracy and... well.. everything else that I had to wade through in that sea of victimhood.
I agree with Notprop, and have nothing but scorn for crybabies.
This is a textbook case of perpetuating what you claim to be against. You're being insulting and negative towards other posters.
So let's have all the folks still holding onto the husk of 40k finally come to realize that if we all band together and stop buying 40k during that week, or month, or year until we get positive change within the game to include real community support, better rules, products with higher value, all at least feature parity with their competitors, then that would be a pretty positive week/month/year indeed!
YES WE CAN GUYS! BELIEVE IN THE DREAM!!!
Seriously, "post better" is the best suggestion here. Its totally cool to feel frustrated at something you've pumped a bazillionty dollars into. It's NOT okay to slag someone who happens to disagree. Use "I" statements. Do some deep breathing. Have an orgasm or two. Life is beautifully ugly, and our hobby is adorable and fun, even if it includes pages of nerd rage.
The people being negative ARE posting better; it's the ones that come in saying "Quit whining! If you don't like it go play something else!" that slag people who disagree. Thus far almost all the "anti-negative" threads that have been closed, have been closed because the "anti-negative" people are the ones getting hostile and resorting to insults, while the "negative" crowd always provides rational reasons for their negativity only to have it dismissed with something close to "Nuh uh!"
But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.
Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.
But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.
Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.
It'd be nice if Games Workshop was at least feature parity with those other companies. That'd be a positive start.
Frankenberry wrote: But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.
This is not true. The forums for X-Wing (my other game) are much less negative, and most of the criticism that does exist is focused on specific (relatively minor) issues rather than "FFG SUCKS" rants. The problem here isn't the people, it's the subject of the discussion.
Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.
I agree. I would love to have a world in which GW stopped doing the things that generate those threads and we could all be happy. Unfortunately that isn't happening, and as long as GW continues to suck we will get "GW sucks" threads.
Frankenberry wrote: But when suggesting this, remember that a normal wargamer, mixed with one part anonymity and one part public forum usually turns out amplified bitching. Table top gamer's are inherently critical of everything, so when you give the more vocal ones a way to voice their criticisms, they will.
This is not true. The forums for X-Wing (my other game) are much less negative, and most of the criticism that does exist is focused on specific (relatively minor) issues rather than "FFG SUCKS" rants. The problem here isn't the people, it's the subject of the discussion.
Although, it'd be nice to see General without a thread titled: 'Why GW sucks and how these other companies are better' or some derivation thereof.
I agree. I would love to have a world in which GW stopped doing the things that generate those threads and we could all be happy. Unfortunately that isn't happening, and as long as GW continues to suck we will get "GW sucks" threads.
Well, sadly this is more so the exception rather than the rule.
I suppose that means that we need a new thread every one to two weeks telling us how GW's business model is poorly thought out and how their models are expensive? I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
AesSedai wrote: I think the 40k subforum being a a cesspool of rancorous, vitriolic rantings is great. I hate what GW has become. Clearly, I'm not the only one. It's great to be reminded that hobbyists can be critical and discerning.
I don't need think positive week, if i want a laugh I go to the 40k forums and read a few arguments. If this positive week thing happened where would I get my funnies?
AesSedai wrote: I think the 40k subforum being a a cesspool of rancorous, vitriolic rantings is great. I hate what GW has become. Clearly, I'm not the only one. It's great to be reminded that hobbyists can be critical and discerning.
I don't need think positive week, if i want a laugh I go to the 40k forums and read a few arguments. If this positive week thing happened where would I get my funnies?
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?
I don't collect stamps, go bird-spotting, sew, practice the violin, or base jump. I don't feel the need to go on forums about those hobbies and endlessly, and I mean endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.
Its what put me at odds with the haters when I first got on here about 5 years ago. I rocked up and saw some bloke saying he liked a model, only to be greeted by the usual suspects (everyone knows their names) ripping the piss out of the bloke, and they were doing it like picking at someone in a pub, all LOLs for each others jokes, bro-fist memes, the fething lot.
Its fething pathetic. If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.
There are plenty of things wrong with GW, bucket loads, so I try to buy as little as possible and concentrate on what I do like. I don't mind a bit of criticism, but all the back-slapping and bullying fills me with revulsion, because I imagine a man in his thirties on the other end of the keyboard and it makes me shiver with shame.
Would be nice, but i think alot of people get alot of pleasure thriving of the drama.
The hobby as a whole is expensive and their's alot of gaps in alot of the rulesets out there.
People just feel the need to reinforce both those points, constantly, in every thread, about every game.
then create and thrive of the drama that ensues, its very childish and increasing in many forums that i frequeunt, i find myself ever increasingly not interested in looking or participating in forums anymore.
mattyrm wrote: See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?
My life isn't defined by my hobby at all. My hobby is something that I choose to do in my spare time.
...endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.
Its what put me at odds with the haters ...
That right there is more likely what 'put you at odds' with people. DIsmissing a contrary opinion as 'whining' or just labelling people as 'haters' because they don't like something you do doesn't promote civil discussion.
Once again, if you're seeing discussions that you don't want to be a part of, move on. If you would rather talk about something positive, then talk about something positive.
The problem isn't that people complain. The problem is that people complain, and other people insist that the complainers should just shut up because they don't want to read the complaints instead of just going and engaging in discussion that they are interested in.
If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.
Is there no middle ground in your world, where someone can see faults in a product while still enjoying it?
I'm here because I'm a wargamer. I discuss 40K because it's a game that I have been playing for 20 years now, and that I still at times enjoy. There are a number of things however that I dislike about the current state of the game, and about the company that produces it... and in a thread discussing those things, I'll post my opinion if I feel so inclined... because that's what a discussion is for.
mattyrm wrote: See this is where I disagree, I am very down on GW, but I don't endlessly go on about it, because surely our life is defined by our hobby do's not our hobby dont's. I can drip my tits off with the best of them about GW, but I try to find what I do like and focus on that, because that is how the world works surely?
My life isn't defined by my hobby at all. My hobby is something that I choose to do in my spare time.
...endlessly, piss and whine and cry and insult people that do.
Its what put me at odds with the haters ...
That right there is more likely what 'put you at odds' with people. DIsmissing a contrary opinion as 'whining' or just labelling people as 'haters' because they don't like something you do doesn't promote civil discussion.
Once again, if you're seeing discussions that you don't want to be a part of, move on. If you would rather talk about something positive, then talk about something positive.
The problem isn't that people complain. The problem is that people complain, and other people insist that the complainers should just shut up because they don't want to read the complaints instead of just going and engaging in discussion that they are interested in.
If you utterly despise GW, then utterly ignore them forever, I despise plenty of things, funny thing I don't find a forum all about those things and rip the piss out of people that do like it.
Is there no middle ground in your world, where someone can see faults in a product while still enjoying it?
I'm here because I'm a wargamer. I discuss 40K because it's a game that I have been playing for 20 years now, and that I still at times enjoy. There are a number of things however that I dislike about the current state of the game, and about the company that produces it... and in a thread discussing those things, I'll post my opinion if I feel so inclined... because that's what a discussion is for.
The first point was needless pedantry because you know exactly what I mean, as for the rest, obviously I entirely agree with you. You basically said exactly what I did.
There is a big difference between having a bit of a gripe, and fully dripping your tits off constantly. For years.
The occasional bit of a gripe, I, and many others do all the time about GW and that is fine, I specifically mentioned the needless attacks and relentless negativity, clearly anyone who reads this knows who and what I am talking about, so lets just leave it at that. The majority of posters do not cross the line into ridiculousness, but those that do entirely deserve a moniker.
If you are going to accuse people of pissing and whining I wouldn't recommend complaining about the negativity as it's a little hypocritical. As is dismissing anyone who dislikes GW as a hater and as is dismissing the people who support GW as sheep or idiots.
Keep in mind when discussing with others the following
Insults rarely help the situation
Being critical is not the same as being negative
Acting gakky towards people is the best way to ensure they act gakky back to you.
You don't always have to agree or win a disagreement you can make your case and agree to disagree
Someone disliking your chosen game does mean they dislike you and critique or insults towards the game are not insults towards you
When complaining or critiquing a game don't act like everyone who plays it is an idiot
Most importantly, we are talking about toy soldiers on the internet, try not to take it to seriously or too personally.
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.
And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.
Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.
And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.
Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?
And again, it's the "shut up and stop complaining or leave" crowd that tends to be the most hostile and devolve into insults and flaming, not the "negativity" crowd that complain about GW.
It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself
But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.
For example in the flames of war discussions, there are a few individuals which feel the need to inject their opinions of the game into irrelevant discussions which have nothing to do with the state of the game or the company.
same goes for almost every GW oriented sub category.
It's rather unwholesome, and frankly unnecessary the constant negativity. Yes we all have a right to state our opinions but is it really necessary?
Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.
And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.
Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?
And again, it's the "shut up and stop complaining or leave" crowd that tends to be the most hostile and devolve into insults and flaming, not the "negativity" crowd that complain about GW.
Both sides act like children, it's not just one or the other. You see the same posters in 'GW sucks' threads all the time, going back and forth. One side thinks that their opinions need to be copy-pasted every time one of these rears it's ugly head and the other is tired of seeing the same comments time and time again. Is it ok to bitch? Sure is. Is it ok to bitch incessantly for years? Sure thing. But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is.
Either way, I think this thread is going to end up getting locked.
Edit: Pretty much this.
mitch_rifle wrote: It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself
But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.
For example in the flames of war discussions, there are a few individuals which feel the need to inject their opinions of the game into irrelevant discussions which have nothing to do with the state of the game or the company.
same goes for almost every GW oriented sub category.
It's rather unwholesome, and frankly unnecessary the constant negativity. Yes we all have a right to state our opinions but is it really necessary?
Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.
Frankenberry wrote: ... But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is..
If you're getting 'annoyed' that someone dislikes something that you like, it's possible that you're taking your hobby a little too seriously, IMO.
People will complain about something as long as they perceive that thing to be deserving of complaint. If you disagree, that's totally ok... but that doesn't mean that the other person isn't entitled to share their opinion.
"Its what put me at odds with the haters when I first got on here about 5 years ago. I rocked up and saw some bloke saying he liked a model, only to be greeted by the usual suspects (everyone knows their names) ripping the piss out of the bloke, and they were doing it like picking at someone in a pub, all LOLs for each others jokes, bro-fist memes, the fething lot. "
That is definitely something I have noticed in terms of how those arguments go. Its always one or 2 people talking about why they arent that annoyed at the rules or how they still find enjoyment in the game. Then the usual suspects gang up (about 5+ of them) in a dedicated argument to rip into them. Those original 2 give up and leave, the usual group stroke each others ego's after victory, then someone else comes to say what they think in terms of enjoying the game etc, then that group repeats the process. Anyone against the whining is usually being mobbed by the same few people.
It seems to me, the people who complain constantly (the ones posters have an issue with) are simply far more dedicated to spending time and effort preaching their message than those who are sick of them. They are more passionate about hating the game, than those who like the game (to put it simply) have passion for the game.
So all the threads with those usual suspects are really just a group of people who gang up on the not so dedicated and (it seems like it) irritate the few who sporadically try talk about what they think of the game. The pattern has not changed from when I used to look on these threads years a go. Always the same (even some of the people are the same) and it gets to the point where the less dedicated simply goes "shutup" and leaves. The less dedicated tend to be those that complain in moderation (everything is healthy on moderation).
mitch_rifle wrote: Which i think is a question everyone has to ask themselves is it neccesary? in every thread, all the time.
No more necessary than it is for people to talk about how much they enjoy a particular game, or about how they don't see any of the issues that people are complaining about.
Frankenberry wrote: ... But when you bitch publicly expect folks to disagree, and when you keep at it, expect people to get annoyed, ask you to stick a sock in it, and stop bad mouthing a game they perceive to be fine the way it is..
If you're getting 'annoyed' that someone dislikes something that you like, it's possible that you're taking your hobby a little too seriously, IMO.
People will complain about something as long as they perceive that thing to be deserving of complaint. If you disagree, that's totally ok... but that doesn't mean that the other person isn't entitled to share their opinion.
Plastic mini's is srsbsns.
Never said people can't share their opinions. Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.
And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.
Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?
In general, people talk about the 'negative gak' because they want it to return to being 'positive gak'.
If they don't share your opinions, well, that's just their opinion man. Just like yours is just your opinion. But everyone has the right to voice it.
Frankenberry wrote: Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.
If it's relevant to the discussion, and they're still interested enough to participate in that discussion, why wouldn't they?
'Dakka' is not a single entity. While some of the posters remain more or less unchanging and ever-present, a discussion held this week will invariably include a certain number of people who weren't involved in the similar discussion last week, or last month. So in some cases, people are interested in sharing their viewpoint in the new discussion with new people. And in some cases it's just treading back over familiar old ground with people they've discussed it with in the past... and that comes from both 'sides' of the discussion.
Frankenberry wrote: Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.
If it's relevant to the discussion, and they're still interested enough to participate in that discussion, why wouldn't they?
'Dakka' is not a single entity. While some of the posters remain more or less unchanging and ever-present, a discussion held this week will invariably include a certain number of people who weren't involved in the similar discussion last week, or last month. So in some cases, people are interested in sharing their viewpoint in the new discussion with new people. And in some cases it's just treading back over familiar old ground with people they've discussed it with in the past... and that comes from both 'sides' of the discussion.
If it's relevant, ok, I'll give you that.
So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.
Frankenberry wrote: I get that GW is doing everything wrong and have been for some time, but seriously, does that justify a constant need to bitch publicly?
Why do people need a justification for talking about their hobby?
There is no 'need' to talk about upcoming releases. There is no 'need' to post pictures of models that you have painted. There is no 'need' to start a discussion about whether Rainbow Bright would kick a Grey Knight's butt in close combat.
We're all just here to talk about our hobby, and we do so because we want to. If you're seeing discussions that you don't personally feel a need to participate in, then just close those threads and move on.
There's a difference between what you just listed and the same group of people posting the same negative gak, but apparently it's all the same under the 'we want to talk about what we want to talk about' rule.
And I'm aware of my thread viewing abilities, thanks.
Edit: When you display your opinions publicly be prepared to offer up some sort of reason for why you think/said/wrote what you did. I'm not saying people are wrong when they complain, only that does having a negative view on the topic justify constant spam about it?
In general, people talk about the 'negative gak' because they want it to return to being 'positive gak'.
If they don't share your opinions, well, that's just their opinion man. Just like yours is just your opinion. But everyone has the right to voice it.
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.
Second edit: Apparently 'the grammarz' isn't my strong suit.
I think if you're negative and also don't do something on your own part to fix it, then yah, you're part of the problem. Sometimes hashing out your thoughts on a forum away from your friends and cohorts can be a healthy means of working through what you're thinking. Negativity, again, can be the reality of the situation. And the current reality of Games Workshop is grim. You can still enjoy the game, purchase models, and have a great time, but that doesn't mean they aren't drawing strong parallels to the TSR of yore.
It'd be like bringing up *Insert Political Argument based upon sound science here* and then having people argue against is just because they "believe" different or "they're just fine, so it's gotta be all okay!" Sometimes facts are facts and outcomes aren't pretty. Rationality doesn't come from being overly positive or negative, it's the ability to weigh when you should be either when it means it. If you're thousands and years deep in a hobby and you don't like it's direction, you might be cranky for a bit if it starts taking a hard turn off the course you enjoyed. And that's not "negative." That's the reflection of changes someone doesn't like and going against what they did enjoy.
mitch_rifle wrote: It's not just about the threads which are started and purely use for critism or opinion on the company that makes the product, or the product itself
But the constant injection of criticism,complaining and negativity into almost every thread from news and rumours to fluff discussions.
Find some examples? There's ample things in all those areas for complaints: - news and rumours: "GW is really implementing unbound, what the feth?" - fluff: "GW is really letting loyalist space marines summon daemons on the extremely fringe case where that would happen, but IG aren't battle brothers to represent the very common traitor guard?" - tactics: "Because of the horrible balancing, you're penalising yourself if you take rough riders. You'll get much better mileage out of vendettas." - New player: "You can get some fun out of 40k, but you have to try really hard as GW has done a number of ridiculous things lately. Have you considered some of these other games which we think are more fun atm for these reasons?" - 40k background: "Blood Angels bro fisting Necrons? Draigo? GG GW."
Frankenberry wrote: I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted.
There's only one way to fix the problem - force GW to fix it. The only way to make GW pay attention is to hit them in the profits. We do that by encouraging others to not spend money on GW products. What your'e complaining about is us trying to fix the problem the only way we can. You then criticise us for not trying to fix the problem. Should we spend hundreds of hours for free to fix the products GW charges a ridiculous price for? Then spend thousands more getting players worldwide to adopt these fixes, encouraging GW to put even less effort in since they know we'll do their work for free while they get paid? Feth no!
Plus regardless of anything else, new players deserve to know both sides of the story. 40k is not all sunshine and rainbows - if we didn't tell each new player about the problems, they'd spend hundreds or thousands of IRL monetary units on a new hobby that they may then find out they don't like for reasons that are well known. You may be happy with that outcome, but if I can save someone some cash and a bad experience, I'll damn well do it.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.
I actually tend to see the opposite. I more often see 'haters' criticise the product, and give their opinion on what would be better, and get shut down with the same old tired 'vote with your wallet'. But anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.
The fact that so many people are disgruntled, but still interested in criticising, shows that people do care. They want 40k to return to being a good game, with sane(er) prices. They get frustrated when they see people are enjoying what they perceive as a flawed game for many reasons. On the reverse, you have people enjoying the game for what it is, who don't mind the prices, and get frustrated when they see 'haters' come in and rain on their parade.
While you are sick of seeing the so called 'haters' come in and gak in your cereal, those same people are sick of seeing 'white knights' defend what they perceive as a flawed game, which they can see real ways to improve, and have seen the decline over the years. And while you might see the occasional person post pointless attacks at the game and people who enjoy it, you also see people who enjoy the game post pointless attacks at those who don't.
So while you might want people who don't like the game to simply stop posting, they probably wish the same of you. The best thing to do is exactly what insaniak said - let it go, and read and reply to comments you want to.
Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
Frankenberry wrote: I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'. Thing is, the guys on the other side of the fence don't start out with 'get over it or shut up', they generally start with 'Ok, well, have you tried...?'. But still, the caustic bs continues unabated. Its almost like they enjoy being pissed off.
I actually tend to see the opposite. I more often see 'haters' criticise the product, and give their opinion on what would be better, and get shut down with the same old tired 'vote with your wallet'. But anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.
The fact that so many people are disgruntled, but still interested in criticising, shows that people do care. They want 40k to return to being a good game, with sane(er) prices. They get frustrated when they see people are enjoying what they perceive as a flawed game for many reasons. On the reverse, you have people enjoying the game for what it is, who don't mind the prices, and get frustrated when they see 'haters' come in and rain on their parade.
While you are sick of seeing the so called 'haters' come in and gak in your cereal, those same people are sick of seeing 'white knights' defend what they perceive as a flawed game, which they can see real ways to improve, and have seen the decline over the years. And while you might see the occasional person post pointless attacks at the game and people who enjoy it, you also see people who enjoy the game post pointless attacks at those who don't.
So while you might want people who don't like the game to simply stop posting, they probably wish the same of you. The best thing to do is exactly what insaniak said - let it go, and read and reply to comments you want to.
Harriticus wrote: Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
:rollseyes: Calm down there killer, no thought police here, only wild accusations and knee-jerk freakouts over nothing, thanks, by the way.
We could talk about how awesomely fun the games industry has become, or you know the hobbies that are coming out?
I mean there is so much goodness to share!
Like Warlords of Draenor, or any game that does something different.
Not everything has to be negative. It can be positive. If you surround yourself with negative things. Negativity will find you and beat you like an ogre after getting drunk.
It would make for a pretty dull forum if you could only say positive nice things for a week. One persons negativity is another persons balanced criticism, apparently both are off the table? It's difficult to have meaningful discussions when contradictory opinions are gagged.
GW used to ban various discussion they didn't approve of on their website. And while every company gets their fair share of moaners, GW invite it through stunts like halving the contents of boxes and keeping prices level, replacing metal with a gakky resin and then raising prices, and sending out C&Ds to many other companies on spurious grounds. It's telling that GW would rather silence criticism on their forums years ago than listen to any of it.
The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.
"So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same sycophantic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last lovefest of a 'GW' is the greatest and they have no competition.' Eh, ok."
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'
I'm sorry. You are completely misrepresenting the other side with this. There have been entire threads devoted to ideas to improve GW.
If I where to say that I think GW are a cancer on the hobby because they recruit large numbers of people and try to restrict the information those people get to keep them in the Hhhhobby instead of allowing them to explore the whole hobby, because they price themselves so high that other companies can price their products higher than necessary but still appear cheap, because they have and are continuing to try to bully smaller companies into closing down with legal threats or because they are activly working against FLGS would that be considered something more than 'hate'?
I'm calling GW a cancer, it's certainly negative, but it's definitely an argument that can be made.
Kilkrazy wrote: The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
There. You have it right here. A non-negative thought on GW.
It's official, yakface is now in GW's pocket and the moderators are being pushed to promote 40k in a positive light.
jonolikespie wrote: If I where to say that I think GW are a cancer on the hobby because they recruit large numbers of people and try to restrict the information those people get to keep them in the Hhhhobby instead of allowing them to explore the whole hobby, because they price themselves so high that other companies can price their products higher than necessary but still appear cheap, because they have and are continuing to try to bully smaller companies into closing down with legal threats or because they are activly working against FLGS would that be considered something more than 'hate'?
I'm calling GW a cancer, it's certainly negative, but it's definitely an argument that can be made.
Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
WarOne wrote: Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
What I am saying is not 'hate' though is it? I'm being negative but I am not emotional about it, I am giving reasons instead of just throwing an opinion in there and leaving it at that.
WarOne wrote: Calling GW a cancer is like calling Hitler a tap dancing queen with a heart of gold.
There are different degrees by which to assess GW. You can call them one of the industry's leading companies and one of the more recognizable faces, but do not assume that it's practices are different from any other company. Apple, GM, Dole Foods, ect. all do dastardly things and GW is no different from what they do than from other companies. Calling them cancer would make tens of thousands upon thousands of other companies a worse form of torture and death by comparison.
The only major difference I have seen from GW is their complete lack of customer interaction. They hardly acknowledge when they are wrong and let no one hold them accountable to it except for once or twice in the last five years.
What I am saying is not 'hate' though is it? I'm being negative but I am not emotional about it, I am giving reasons instead of just throwing an opinion in there and leaving it at that.
Consider it an exercise in counter-opinions.
An opinion is still a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge (copy-pasted the thar definition boi-yo!). Still carries a subjective viewpoint. Still can be seen hateful as calling something cancer as the qualifier is very negative and nothing likes to be associated with cancer.
Critically analyzing the situation is best done without attaching words that have a charged meaning. Rather, state the facts or use a succinct explanation.
"GW exhibits price gouging tendencies, trends of cornering their market by fighting legal proxy battles, poorly executed designing and manufacturing standards, and has poor customer relations." I think rather than calling them a cancer (even with explanations!), calling them a greedy, mismanaged company is more apt and draws fewer criticisms and rebukes in kind, especially since their history speaks for itself.
I cant' help but feel that it's convenient that in making a post about peoples' unwillingness to consider other peoples' views, I managed to inspire such a back and forth.
I can't help but feel that you're being incredibly disingenuous.
Never said people can't share their opinions. Just wondering why folks have to keep repeating the same gak over and over again, it's not like Dakka forget's or anything.
On the flip side, Dakka most likely has not forgotten the positivity, so why post that either? Why post anything? Do you really imagine that there is something to be said that hasn't been before, at some time, by someone, somewhere? Nothing new under the sun.
Frankenberry wrote:If it's relevant, ok, I'll give you that.
People obviously think what they are saying is relevant. Should they PM you first to see if it really is relevant?
Another option you have is to use the little report button. It looks like this: . Then put in that the post is off topic. The mods here are great and if it really is irrelevant to the thread topic, they'll remove the posts.
Harriticus wrote:Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
Kilkrazy wrote:The thing is that comments like "GW have made the hobby into a horrible cancer" are completely negative, offer no perspective or analysis as to why the user thinks that, and are seen as depressing and for want of a better word as pointless "h8ing".
It is useless to come to a games discussion board and just say you hate game X or Y. That is exactly the kind of negativity that has the "positivity" crowd complaining about all complaints about GW.
Everyone needs to remember that DakkaDakka is about discussion and promoting enjoyment of wargaming.
That doesn't mean people should not criticise. We should criticise from a rational perspective. Otherwise the extremes of the spectrum of opinion will come to dominate and ruin public discourse to the loss of the majority who are nearer the middle.
He was pointing out people have the right to express their view, in a thread about only post positive views. When you, don't take only what you want form his post to help your own post. If it was really pointless wouldn't you just remove the post as a mod, anyways. Maybe in a how to fix 40K thread he talk about how to fix it. But, in a "let only say nice thing thread" giving your view of way it will not happen, seem totally on subject.
I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
Lastly, it sometimes is useful to save a pointless post in order to leave a moderator comment about it.
I agree totally that people have the right to express their views. On DakkaDakka, however, that right is reserved mainly to views about wargaming backed up by reasons, excluding personal comments about other users.
Posts like "GW are AWESOME" and posts like "GW are AWFUL" are equally pointless. They don't contribute to a conversation about games. It is just people shouting. If people give reasons why they think that, it continues a conversation on the subject.
I suppose I can see both sides here. I check the News and Rumours forum fairly regularly because it's the best way to find out what is - or might be - being released. I'll admit, it's a bit tiresome to read multiple posts that suggest that the reader was determined not to like whatever was put out. Or to see the same tired soundbites trotted out time and again.
It's also very frustrating when a worthwhile, or interesting, debate is derailed because of how quickly someone gives, or takes, offense. I don't think that's in anyway limited to this site - or to discussion of Games Workshop though!
The flip side of that is that Games Workshop are a profit making business. That doesn't mean they're intrinsically bad but it does mean that they're fair game for criticism and ultimately, consumers expressing their dissatisfaction (preferably through buying habits as well, not just posting online) is the best way to get a company to change a policy on something.
Mostly when I see people complaining about 40k or Games Workshop, I don't get angry with what they're saying. I'm just disappointed because they're obviously upset with the direction a hobby they used to enjoy a lot is taking. That's rough - it's no fun at all if something you used to enjoy takes a bad turn. And for those people, I'm not sure a week - or whatever - of enforced positivity is going to help.
Kilkrazy wrote: I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
I guess I've seen enough "stay on topic" reminder posts and red text to assume that mods here do indeed cull off topic stuff when requested. I guess it's a case by case basis.
Sorry, when I read the OP to think happy thoughts, why did I think of this:
It really is a matter of perspective of where our happiness lies... some are more delusional than others.
I agree there are times to put "a white hat on" but we all hate to give an unbalanced perspective on things.
Too many of us love a lively debate, maybe it would be a "challenge" to use a completely positive view.
That may be too much like those Demotivational posters and could be almost painful.
Never want to pose a problem without some solution:
Give up ever getting the girl on the left if you follow these 15 easy steps, the guy on the right looks like he is cramping already.
<edit> My main form of positive output is by not being serious.
Too much of life is and gaming is just to be a whole lot'O fun.
Passion is to be respected and there always is the ignore button...
So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same caustic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last debacle of a 'lawl 'insert rule set/game/GW' is so expensive, chess is better'. Eh, ok.
"So I guess because people want to talk about the same thing over and over again with the same sycophantic viewpoints, it's ok because poster's 1-27 didn't get to have their say in the last lovefest of a 'GW' is the greatest and they have no competition.' Eh, ok."
I'm all for differing viewpoints, I love a good discussion. What I don't like, or understand for that matter, is that the gak never changes. No constructive ideas on how to solve the problem, only 'psh, the company sucks, they're only out to make money, not be the amazing second-father/mother/sibling I wanted. Also, kittens are stupid.'
I'm sorry. You are completely misrepresenting the other side with this. There have been entire threads devoted to ideas to improve GW.
I agree.
Also, I agree. But no one remembers those threads, we're not talking about those threads, we're talking about people who react to most things like this:
Harriticus wrote: Trying to control thought here is ridiculous. GW has reduced "the hobby" to the horrible cancer its become, and fans of it have every right to express their thoughts on the matter. Some North Korean-esque forced propaganda on how great things are is ridiculous.
If you want to bask in the vision of the status quo GW propagates, go on their website. Or better yet warseer.
That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this. It's the same for those who think nothing is wrong with GW; you have posters that see faults but recognize that the company makes something they still find fun, and then you've got those that won't stand for any sort of 'GW Hate' and they act just as outrageous.
I'm not naive, I understand that people can post their opinions how they want about what they want and so on. It doesn't mean that it's not the tiniest bit frustrating to want to read a thread about improving a game that I like only to have it permeated with people who think that the rule set is crap and people who play it are just too dense to play something that's 'good'.
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
Do you have facts for this? If not, it's just an opinion.
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
It wouldnt be an issue if the "haters" group didnt create/flame these issues all day. It has to start somehwere and it seems the hater group is the only fixable source of conflict. When the negativity ends, im fairly sure the anti negativity will end straight away. If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around. So in my opinion the best fix is to end negativity to create a more peaceful community. The source of the problem needs to be solved, not the end result of the problem (which is people getting irritated at a select group).
Either the negative group can moderate their negativity to a reasonable level, or they can move on. If they dont then its not surprising that the less dedicated are gonna get annoyed at you. If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Frankenberry wrote: That's what kills general discussions, it doesn't matter that people who don't like GW's practices have put forward genuinely excellent ways to fix the issues, because they're overshadowed by nonsensical bs like this.
That's hyperbole directed at an absent 3rd party corporation and easily discounted.
Not so easily discounted are personal insults such as "stop bitching, hater" directed at those participating int he conversation which tends to derail threads much quicker.
And yet, hyperbole or no, it derails threads just as much as those who start with 'stop bitching, hater'. Neither party is without fault here as I've said repeatedly, wouldn't you agree?
No, go back and see. "Stop crying haters" has closed far more threads.
It wouldnt be an issue if the "haters" group didnt create/flame these issues all day. It has to start somehwere and it seems the hater group is the only fixable source of conflict. When the negativity ends, im fairly sure the anti negativity will end straight away. If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around. So in my opinion the best fix is to end negativity to create a more peaceful community. The source of the problem needs to be solved, not the end result of the problem (which is people getting irritated at a select group).
Either the negative group can moderate their negativity to a reasonable level, or they can move on. If they dont then its not surprising that the less dedicated are gonna get annoyed at you. If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Because any criticism of GW gets one labeled a "hater" regardless of how well supported it is. Maybe the apologist should moderate themselves and stop the personal attacks?
Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
Last Monday I shipped my last GW army in my possession after spending two months clearing out 22 years of GW stuff. All told, I made a little over $9,000.
Of that, I helped increase Corvus Belli's coffers by $6,500 and have been having a ball playing a real wargame made by a company that gives a s***.
Last Monday I shipped my last GW army in my possession after spending two months clearing out 22 years of GW stuff. All told, I made a little over $9,000.
Of that, I helped increase Corvus Belli's coffers by $6,500 and have been having a ball playing a real wargame made by a company that gives a s***.
How's that for positive thoughts?
Great, now go say that in the right section (I.E not the 40k one )
Which would solve a HUGE part of the problem.
Thats some pretty decent cash there too by the way.
Swastakowey wrote: If the anti negativity ends the negativity will still be around.
Which is only a problem if you see that negativity as a problem, rather than just as the other side of the discussion...
If you dont like being labelled as a hater, then why not eliminate any reason for you to be called one?
Because on a forum where the primary rule is to be polite and treat other posters with respect, it's not reasonable to expect someone to refrain from sharing their opinion for fear of being insulted?
Swastakowey wrote: Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
I do it because there too much misunderstanding as to why people have criticisms. I've been frustrated by people that refuse to understand why I left GW. They say that I hate 40k or nothing will ever satisfy me or whatever. They don't listen to arguments and only reply with "whiners" and "go away." Honestly, if I felt that people understood, I wouldn't need to keep saying the same points several times.
That's personal thing with me. I'm sure others have other reasons for doing what they do.
Swastakowey wrote: Really? Because I frequently see those who enjoy the game labelled as "liking nothing more than garbage" or "with scarily low standards" etc.
Thats like saying someone who enjoys french Fries likes nothing more than killing themselves and clearly needs to eat chemical free apples as a treat instead and then saying they must have low standards because they arent willing to eat the logically better food item. Especially on a forum where the majority are wanting to talk about enjoying french fries.
Its on both sides. Just one side seems to be waaaaay too dedicated to be considered healthy. I wouldnt say any criticism is called out as hating, just the constant criticism that is often repeated from that thread 10 minutes ago. Hence why the term whining is often used, as whining is constant and repetitive.
Why not go to warmachine threads and talk about that instead, if you spent as much time talking about how much you love warmachine in that area as you do talking about how much you enjoy not playing 40k in the 40k area, maybe you would create a more positive image of yourself and not be subject to this retaliation.
I do it because there too much misunderstanding as to why people have criticisms. I've been frustrated by people that refuse to understand why I left GW. They say that I hate 40k or nothing will ever satisfy me or whatever. They don't listen to arguments and only reply with "whiners" and "go away." Honestly, if I felt that people understood, I wouldn't need to keep saying the same points several times.
That's personal thing with me. I'm sure others have other reasons for doing what they do.
I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
Just consider this. Has the constant negativity actually changed anything? If not, try something else. Otherwise you will get the same result. If you are happy with the current results of the negativity, then by all means keep at it. If not, maybe try doing something else with your time OR try doing it differently. You know this, you sold your army and got a better result (an enjoyable game). Unless you have fun spending forum time arguing with those who are trying to or are enjoying 40k, well then... yea.
Swastakowey wrote: Great, now go say that in the right section (I.E not the 40k one )
Which would solve a HUGE part of the problem.
This is the dakka discussion section, not the 40k section.
The problem lies with the 40k section. I probably should have clarified that people would not mind if that kind of stuff was kept to the right forum rather than leaking into the 40k one etc etc.
Given how often it's mischaracterised, that seems unlikely.
But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too.
When you keep goint to talk to him about how the new edition is great, or that the new ork codex removed a bunch of units, it'd be very relevant for him to tell you his opinions on that, why would he just sit there and listen to you talk about how good it is? That's not a conversation. It's easily fixed by not talking to him about it - just like it's easily fixed by not going into threads asking for opinions. If the thread asks for opinions, both positive and negative are relevant aren't they? If only positive were acceptable what would be the point in the discussion?
Swastakowey wrote: The problem lies with the 40k section. I probably should have clarified that people would not mind if that kind of stuff was kept to the right forum rather than leaking into the 40k one etc etc.
It belongs in the 40k section too. Someone leaving the hobby after 22 years because he thinks it's gone to hell and the competition is now better is pretty relevant discussion to 40k.
Yonan wrote: It belongs in the 40k section too. Someone leaving the hobby after 22 years because he thinks it's gone to hell and the competition is now better is pretty relevant discussion to 40k.
Every day? For years? Surely people have better things to do... Like go onto the new product section and talk about it there... You know instead of "why I hate GW" go in the 40k forum, go "why I love "insert whatever here" in the relevant section. It was done a month or so ago and it was great. So keep making those instead.
If it was just one person sure - it's not. It's many people, that's the problem. The game is so bad now that lots of people are posting about how bad it is, hence all the posts. Some of us post more than others though ; p If me posting negative things is bad, please find one of my posts in 40k general being negative about GW that weren't relevant to the topic. If someone asks about how good 40k is? I'll tell them what I think, good and bad. If someone asks for opinions about 7th, I'll tell them it's a clusterfeth. If someone asks about the Ork codex, I'll say I dislike the format and the removal of units and the day one dlc shenanigans.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Well, when people stop saying that they like GW, I'll stop saying that I don't. Fair deal?
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is that any different then you coming on here and repeating your willful ignorance?
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Well, when people stop saying that they like GW, I'll stop saying that I don't. Fair deal?
Its not up to me. Ask someone else. Why is it so offensive for someone to like GW that you need to make sure they know why they should hate it? Just leave them in peace to do their own thing.
Im not saying stop completely (never have), I mean, even I, Swastakowey the White Knight (apparently), complain about many things. But its not everywhere and its not all the time.
I hate GW models and fluff. A lot. I hate GW prices etc. But at the end of the day, thats there and there is no need to keep pushing it.
If anything, what we need is not a positive Dakka Week. But an ignore those you dont want to hear from week. Imagine how much better dakka would be if you simply ignored those who enjoy GW games for whatever reason (good luck, your list will be long) and we can quickly ignore those who love to hate GW for whatever reason. There would be little for either group to complain about.
Swastakowey wrote: I understand why you left. We probably all do. But its a pain to hear it all the time. If the guy in my office told me why he left the army every day id eventually tell him to shut up already too. I know full well why you left. I did the same once too. (came back... ish) but this doesnt mean people need/want to hear it on a daily basis. I dont really want to know for the 9th time that you sold your models and why. Im sure most people will agree. Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough. Plus this is the internet! Who cares man? No need to justify anything, because at the end of the day it doesnt matter what some small town new zealander thinks of your leaving GW or why. Just state your opinion and move on, heck a few times is good, but not constantly. Thats what i think, but you already know that. Repeat discussions are boring so we can leave it there.
And if you and he were the only two people involved in the discussion, that would be a valid point.
Read above:
"Sure there are some people who may not see it on your first announcement, but surely after a good week of it enough is enough"
Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is that any different then you coming on here and repeating your willful ignorance?
What willful ignorance? List them, because more often than not I agree with the haters dude. GW does suck. Im just not a broken record about it yet.
Swastakowey wrote: Is it really worth spending months-years repeating yourself so someone new may or may not hear it? If anything thats the very reason im the only person from my area on this forum. Everyone else got sick of the usual names and buggered off. I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
Is it really worth suggesting the same brands of glue and paint every week because someone new posted a question in P&M?
Here's the thing about forums: The same discussions happen over, and over, and over again.
So long-term forum goers tend to wind up in four groups: There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who leave. There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who stick around but just stop reading those threads about things that they're not interested in any more. There's those who are happy to keep discussing the same stuff over and over again... And then there's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who then start insisting that people should just stop talking about the stuff that they personally don't want to talk about...
One of those groups tends to be unhappy with the ongoing experience.
Ignoring anyone in a discussion who doesn't agree with you is the worst thing you can possibly do unless you want a group think mentality to take over so you can spend all day agreeing with everyone.
Its not healthy for any sort of meaningful discussion in any way.
Well The positive thing from GW's current and recent policies is that they created or are partly responsible for all those similar games that have sprung up over the last years, i wonder how many players changed from BFG to X-wing, Necromunda to Deadzone/Melefic/etcetera, epic to dropzone commander etcetera. (that and kickstarter helps off course )
Swastakowey wrote: . Why is it so offensive for someone to like GW that you need to make sure they know why they should hate it?
You're building it into a bigger thing than it actually is, here.
It's not 'offensive' for someone to have a different opinion. But if you're in a discussion with someone, and they mention that they like something that you don't, mentioning that you don't like that thing isn't exactly out of line. It's how discussion works.
jonolikespie wrote: Ignoring anyone in a discussion who doesn't agree with you is the worst thing you can possibly do unless you want a group think mentality to take over so you can spend all day agreeing with everyone.
Its not healthy for any sort of meaningful discussion in any way.
No, but wouldnt ideas be better than the usual "GW sucks and needs to be sacked" we usually hear.
Someone has an idea to make the game interesting and most of the group simply goes "thats GW job not mine!" and continue to put them down etc. Id rather threads talk of improving the game experience rather than simply pass the blame off elsewhere and keep that blame as the topic of discussion. I personally would rather people talk about how to create interesting scenarios to play on the table top, things that may actually help improve the gaming situation. You could argue that telling them how bad it is helps improve their experience haha, but it should be a last resort in my opinion. Better to look forward and improve rather than linger and waste time.
insaniak is right, its a forum and things are repeated weekly. I guess ill be one of the group that gets sick of it and moves on one day.
Oh well. Thats me done.
I still support a "try see the positives/solutions mentality week".
Swastakowey wrote: Someone has an idea to make the game interesting and most of the group simply goes "thats GW job not mine!" and continue to put them down etc.
If the discussion is about ideas to make the game more interesting, then such comments would be off-topic and should be reported so they can be removed.
In a discussion about, say, the current state of the rules, comments like that would be more relevant.
Id rather threads talk of improving the game experience rather than simply pass the blame off elsewhere and keep that blame as the topic of discussion.
So participate in those sorts of threads instead of threads complaining about the state of the game.
Positive thinking: I'm hoping that people will actually read, and understand why others are dissatisfied with Games Workshop and not insult them and tell them to shut up. That would be a positive change. I'm also positive that I will get decent money for selling my Word Bearers.
So long-term forum goers tend to wind up in four groups: There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who leave. There's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who stick around but just stop reading those threads about things that they're not interested in any more. There's those who are happy to keep discussing the same stuff over and over again... And then there's those who get sick of reading the same stuff over and over again, who then start insisting that people should just stop talking about the stuff that they personally don't want to talk about...
One of those groups tends to be unhappy with the ongoing experience.
This I always hate it when people post "this thread again" . I just hope those posters realise that not everyone has their sense of perception and experiences and some people discussing "this thread again" may not have discussed it before. You know, other people have had a different experience to what you experience, ground breaking thought that.
I'm pretty sure we'd get a much more positive 40k general if GW:
- improved the internal and external balance of 40k. This would fix a good majority of complaints imo. The rest of the bollocks can be overlooked to an extent.
- Greatly improved their pricing and value in a number of areas. Reduced prices across the board by 20-40%. Reduced reliance on "pay more for less" dataslates. No more calling minor supplements with either no new units, or 1-2 new units as "codices". No more "day one DLC" cut form products. Regional pricing has to go.
- Improve the base rules substantially, no more lateral shifts, the game needs substantial steps forward in useability and readability. Making close combat and ranged combat both workable is important for the balance mentioned above, as is ensuring foot troops, vehicles and walkers of all kinds, MCs and flyers are reworked to a cohesive system.
- Maintain the new speed of releases, but ensure they are substantial refinements over previous works in fluff, art and rules. Ensure they are playtested, preferably with access to outsiders, and listen to their feedback.
- If you want to really push the forge a narrative, actually include good systems to encourage this and we'll stop taking the piss out of you for it. Include good campaign rule systems and ways to structure battles to follow themes.
- Re-open communication channels with customers and listen to their feedback.
I guess "positive" things to write about seem useless.
It could be a means of saying to GW "Please do not change this! The following things in your rule-base is good, spend your energy elsewhere."
It tends to not further discussion other than "I agree!!" or back into negativity.
I thought submitting new ideas or improvements is a means of being positive: offering things in the spirit of being helpful (just avoid the trap of "this is garbage....").
Continuous improvement is a methodology for successful businesses, a constant means of dissatisfaction with the status quo.
Mistaking "hate" for a genuine attempt to voice where we think our loved games are going wrong is rather sad.
I guess I fail to see how being positive will bring about change for genuine feelings of happiness.
I guess the rule "Change what is within your power to do so, change your mind for things you cannot." is applicable here.
Swastakowey wrote: I cant help but think that they'd be on here discussing paint jobs and army lists if those people simply moderated themselves. I know its just personal experience but still.
The painting forums are the least negative forums on Dakka as well as the 40k Army List forum, so I find "there's negatively elsewhere than where my friends are interested, so that's why they're not here!" to be very, very flimsy.
I only skim the painting forums, but the list building is probably one of the most constructive forums here. No one argues list details or units or the game there because that's the not the purpose.
I would still help people if we were in 6E and my question, if not stated, was what the goal of the list was.
Kilkrazy wrote: I would not necessarily remove a post because it is pointless (the meaning of pointless being judged by moderators, presumably.)
First off it is sometimes too much work.
Secondly, but more importantly, DakkaDakka moderation policy is to delete the minimum necessary so that we can preserve the integrity of the site's records of people's conversations.
I guess I've seen enough "stay on topic" reminder posts and red text to assume that mods here do indeed cull off topic stuff when requested. I guess it's a case by case basis.
It is as you say on a case by case basis. If some offending piece of text has been copied and quoted into a lot of following posts it may be too much work to edit it all, so the thread might be locked or in extreme cases deleted or moved into the Moderator forum.
That's three where GW apologist get the thread locked because they don't like differing opinions. Show us one where a GW critic insulted someone that liked GW and got the thread locked.
I don't know about closing threads exactly, but in my reasonably extensive experience of online forums there's not much more destructive than people trying to shut down discussion. The most common instance of that I see is people trying to silence criticism of whatever game is being discussed. I'm sure that somewhere on the net there's the opposite - somewhere that people are trying to shut down people saying positive things about a game - but I don't know that I've seen it on dakka.
I think maybe that's because a lot of the impetus for trying to stop discussions is defensiveness stemming from people feeling attacked by criticism of things they like. People who dislike something maybe don't have that same problem - and that aside, people who dislike something tend not to hang around forums about it.
In any event, the super most important thing is to not try to shut down discussion on a discussion forum!
Lord Castellan wrote: I myself would prefer a "No Toxicity Week", not a "Silence the Dissenters Week".
Why not a "Ban the Dissenters" week? Why not introduce a new legally binding contract system to user registrations that require ceaseless loyalty to Games Workshop. Why not make membership contingent on continued acts of reverence towards GW's board of directors?
Or why don't we agree to never, ever refer to those critical of GW as "dissenters" that somehow require "silencing".
How would a positive thinking week work, exactly? Instead of saying "Oh man, $63 dollars for three stupid models? What the frick, GW?" we say, "$63 dollars for three great models? Not in my price range but I could just convert from the plastic nob box". I mean, sure, it's nice but it ignores GW's horrible horrible pricing policy.
Seriously, 63 fething dollars for three Meganobz? I have no words. GW is taking the piss now.
TheCustomLime wrote: How would a positive thinking week work, exactly? Instead of saying "Oh man, $63 dollars for three stupid models? What the frick, GW?" we say, "$63 dollars for three great models? Not in my price range but I could just convert from the plastic nob box". I mean, sure, it's nice but it ignores GW's horrible horrible pricing policy.
Seriously, 63 fething dollars for three Meganobz? I have no words. GW is taking the piss now.
Well you could always go for the Kromlech Juggernauts.
Positive thinking? OK....
• I am Positive that I will not buy another GW model until I finish painting all of their figures I already have.
• I am positive that when I do purchase another GW model I will look to find the biggest discount I can get on said model.
• I am positive that many others on these forums feel the same way I do about GW prices.
Wow, hard to believe my little comment started the discussion that followed. However, I want to point something out.
No where in that comment did I say "GW stinks" or "I hate GW". All I said was I sold 22 years worth of GW stuff and bought heavily into Infinity, which I am enjoying immensely from all levels (game play, painting, terrain building, etc.)
What's ironic, is that after that, most could figure out WHY I did what I did, even though I didn't complain about GW at all in my post.
The thread was about positives. I didn't read it as - only positive things to say about GW. So I went there. GW, for a lot of various reasons, was killing enjoyment of the hobby for me. I thought maybe because I was getting too old. Getting into Infinity helped show me how much I still do enjoy the wargaming hobby, but needed something "non-GW" to rekindle that interest. And that was a positive thing for me.
Why does positive ONLY have to revolve around GW? Can someone not enjoying another game, like I am enjoying Infinity, be a positive as well? Or is it because I enjoy Infinity, instead of GW, that it is now a negative for not lapping up the GW kool-aid?
On that same note I found the move from 1.1 Dystopian Wars to 2.0 a MASSIVELY positive thing.
They cleaned up the rulebook a lot, they streamlined the game and cleared up a lot of the rules issues.
They also did extensive play testing and redid every single profile in the game, resulting in a MUCH more balanced system.
My interest was wavering, then this happened and I dove right back in, throwing money at them left right and center. I have had nothing but positive things to say about Spartan Games since because while they didn't make it perfect, they saw what was wrong and put in a lot of effort to fix those things.
Last Monday I shipped my last GW army in my possession after spending two months clearing out 22 years of GW stuff. All told, I made a little over $9,000.
Of that, I helped increase Corvus Belli's coffers by $6,500 and have been having a ball playing a real wargame made by a company that gives a s***.
How's that for positive thoughts?
That's a huge amount of money!
In clearing out my collection (not all GW - Wargames Foundry stuff sells pretty well too), I think I only made about $2,000, of which I re-invested the whole lot into other games, totally rejuvinating my hobby.
In terms of current good stuff; Wyrd have released a plastic Gremlins box I'm looking forward to picking up even if it's got some duplicate characters. I just love painting Gremlins. The War & Empire range is nearing completion too, so soon I get to decide which armies I want (I'm set on Spartans/Greeks, but who do I want to pit them against? Late Persians so I can recreate 300? Romans? Macedonains? More Greeks? )
It's an interesting situation. If you go into other subforums for smaller games, there is a lot more positivity. If you take a look at say, the x wing forum, or infinity or whatever, there is much, much less in the way of negative posts. There is still criticism for the games/models etc, but it's not generally written in such a vitriolic fashion.
My own opinion on the reasons why is that GW have developed somewhat of an abusive relationship with its customers. The ever increasing prices become a cross for gw customers to bear. In contrast, x wing prices have stayed the same since release, and infinity have had I think one small increase in the time I've been collecting - and this is partly due to the costs of white metal.
The smaller companies out there seem to listen to their customers, and to an extent, give them what they want, whereas gw seem to have a genuine disregard for their customers, and their money extracting strategies get more and more pitiful. The reason people get angry at this instead of just giving up the game, is that they genuinely give a gak about the game systems. Gw used to be like Corvus belli, or fantasy flight, or whatever. They used to care about the customer, and deliver fun products for a reasonable price, and their fans are disillusioned with the Microsoft style management they now have.
Positivity can not be forced onto people. If they have an axe to grind, they'll get on and grind it. With each passing month, and each new way to fleece punters, more and more axes will be getting ground.
Eggs wrote: It's an interesting situation. If you go into other subforums for smaller games, there is a lot more positivity. If you take a look at say, the x wing forum, or infinity or whatever, there is much, much less in the way of negative posts. There is still criticism for the games/models etc, but it's not generally written in such a vitriolic fashion.
My own opinion on the reasons why is that GW have developed somewhat of an abusive relationship with its customers. The ever increasing prices become a cross for gw customers to bear. In contrast, x wing prices have stayed the same since release, and infinity have had I think one small increase in the time I've been collecting - and this is partly due to the costs of white metal.
The smaller companies out there seem to listen to their customers, and to an extent, give them what they want, whereas gw seem to have a genuine disregard for their customers, and their money extracting strategies get more and more pitiful. The reason people get angry at this instead of just giving up the game, is that they genuinely give a gak about the game systems. Gw used to be like Corvus belli, or fantasy flight, or whatever. They used to care about the customer, and deliver fun products for a reasonable price, and their fans are disillusioned with the Microsoft style management they now have.
Positivity can not be forced onto people. If they have an axe to grind, they'll get on and grind it. With each passing month, and each new way to fleece punters, more and more axes will be getting ground.
This pretty much sums it up. People aren't being negative for the sake of being negative, they're negative because GW deserves it for what they've done and continue to do, and the fact there is no official channel to communicate just frustrates people more because it makes it look like the customer isn't valued (which seems like that really is the case). The reason other companies don't get this level of negativity is because they don't have this "Just shut up and do what we tell you, peon" type of mentality.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why not introduce a new legally binding contract system to user registrations that require ceaseless loyalty to Games Workshop. Why not make membership contingent on continued acts of reverence towards GW's board of directors?
I thought that those were already invented and were called the Warseer forums?
Eggs wrote: It's an interesting situation. If you go into other subforums for smaller games, there is a lot more positivity. If you take a look at say, the x wing forum, or infinity or whatever, there is much, much less in the way of negative posts. There is still criticism for the games/models etc, but it's not generally written in such a vitriolic fashion.
Side note as I see where this hate fest is going. I have never played war machine hordes. I know nothing about it. Zero. I've seen the models in stores. You know what else I've never done.
Gone to a war machine forum/thread and said a word. Wanna know why? Because its ok they like it. I'm cool with it. My game is better for ME. I don't know if its better for them. I don't care. I'm not here to recruit them or bash their game. Totally their prerogative. Enjoy your game. Now please follow this advice.
I like my war games like I like my religion. It's totally fine for you to worship whatever you want. If I want to know about I'll invite you over. Until that day keep it to yourself. I'll stick with my atheism.
Sorry, I meant to write "I'm now imagining..." not "I'm not imagining". It's a weird thing I do when typing that always completely changes the meaning of a sentence.
Posi thoughts for the day y'all: my primer disaster is fixed, the clay trees I made are looking rad, and that stupid Imperial Bastion I painted for my LGS just scored me some sweet store credit!
Just realised what this whole thread reminds me of. The "new truth" sketch from Monkey Dust. It is available on youtube, but I won't link it as it's a little NSFW.
"By reclassifying things that are not entirely bad as things that a very nearly very good, you can achieve a significant re-emphasis of the good/bad ratio!"
I would broaden the concept of positive think not to just GW, but to basically everything else hobby related.
For those who want to say something positive, structure a thread per major hobby game and use it for positive stories and experiences about the game in question.
For those who want to say something negative, bring a critique of the game, then a solution. Much like modeling and painting where you present a model for showcasing, you get feedback. If you feel something is wrong, give a solution or way of improvement to offer.
At least then you're on par with those sharing a positive experience by the bad being reflecting on what can be done to fix something bad.
WarOne wrote: I would broaden the concept of positive think not to just GW, but to basically everything else hobby related.
For those who want to say something positive, structure a thread per major hobby game and use it for positive stories and experiences about the game in question.
For those who want to say something negative, bring a critique of the game, then a solution. Much like modeling and painting where you present a model for showcasing, you get feedback. If you feel something is wrong, give a solution or way of improvement to offer.
At least then you're on par with those sharing a positive experience by the bad being reflecting on what can be done to fix something bad.
Exhalted. Very true. Condescension, belittlement and any other way to slight others usually end up in a sling fest so that's best avoided. I have seen a 85 page thread with none (or minimal as I could have missed it) in Dakka so I think that is very possible.
WarOne wrote: I would broaden the concept of positive think not to just GW, but to basically everything else hobby related.
For those who want to say something positive, structure a thread per major hobby game and use it for positive stories and experiences about the game in question.
For those who want to say something negative, bring a critique of the game, then a solution. Much like modeling and painting where you present a model for showcasing, you get feedback. If you feel something is wrong, give a solution or way of improvement to offer.
At least then you're on par with those sharing a positive experience by the bad being reflecting on what can be done to fix something bad.
Okay, GW need to cultivate vets, lower prices, make it less prohibitively priced for new people, kick corporate out of the design studio and rebuild the game through balance and consistent FAQs. Publically accept they were going down a wrong path and open up communication.
It's not terribly hard to get us excited about playing the game, what kills the love is when GW step in with palms out and start telling you what to do and cutting off avenues to actually enjoy the hobby.
milkboy wrote: Exhalted. Very true. Condescension, belittlement and any other way to slight others usually end up in a sling fest so that's best avoided. I have seen a 85 page thread with none (or minimal as I could have missed it) in Dakka so I think that is very possible.
You may have missed it, but we provided the proof you were after above. Anything to say on that?
milkboy wrote: Exhalted. Very true. Condescension, belittlement and any other way to slight others usually end up in a sling fest so that's best avoided. I have seen a 85 page thread with none (or minimal as I could have missed it) in Dakka so I think that is very possible.
You may have missed it, but we provided the proof you were after above. Anything to say on that?
I didn't want to derail the thread further, but since you asked, I will try my best to oblige.
I would not want to go so far as to call it proof because those are examples. Also, it is not reasonable or realistic to expect you to go count, and check with the Mods on every closed thread, what was the reason for closing the thread. So in this case, I think MWHistorian has done some good work to bring up examples supporting his point. So that is good.
I think we need a 'No complaining and no pettiness week'. This way we can improve everyone's attitude and also keep a more accurate perspective about what is actually going on.
GorillaWarfare wrote: I think we need a 'No complaining and no pettiness week'. This way we can improve everyone's attitude and also keep a more accurate perspective about what is actually going on.
Why not just post better all the time.
You shouldn't need a week to remind you or others to post in a reasonable manner.
milkboy wrote: I didn't want to derail the thread further, but since you asked, I will try my best to oblige.
I would not want to go so far as to call it proof because those are examples. Also, it is not reasonable or realistic to expect you to go count, and check with the Mods on every closed thread, what was the reason for closing the thread. So in this case, I think MWHistorian has done some good work to bring up examples supporting his point. So that is good.
Does this answer your question about it?
It was quite relevant as there was a misconception that hyperbole was as bad (or worse than) insults in getting threads locked, both of which crop up int he negative threads this topic is in response to. You seemed to agree with that position too, and ignored the proof given after requesting it when it's good to settle points of discussion when possible so they don't crop up again and again as tends to happen.
It's very important as the insults are the central point of the real problem in 40k general. They derail discussion and get threads locked and in general contribute the most to whatever unpleasant atmosphere may be present.
Yonan, I was asking the initial question because MWHistorian has stated it as if it was a fact. Thus, I sought to find out if he had concrete evidence, in the case that others took it to be a fact.
Even now, it is a fact that is hard to prove. I am not saying he is wrong, just that he may not be totally right as well. The actual answer may be somewhere in between.
A thread may be closed when nothing new is added to the topic. A thread can also be closed because it has degenerated into a slingfest. Or it may be closed as the request of the OP. We don't know and would be too hasty to assume.
With that, I hope this clarified your doubts. I do not argue for a side specifically but I believe in being distinct on what is opinion and what is fact.
Btw, I addressed you because I wanted to add context to my reply. To quote the whole chunk would be a bit messy and I have no skill with Spoiler tags. Please do not think this is rude or in anyway condescending.
milkboy wrote: With that, I hope this clarified your doubts. I do not argue for a side specifically but I believe in being distinct on what is opinion and what is fact.
That's hard to believe given you didn't ask the original poster to backup his claims of hyperbole getting threads locked but only asked MWHistorian to back up his challenge to it. Which also seems to coincide with your general "side" in these discussions.
milkboy wrote: Yonan, I was asking the initial question because MWHistorian has stated it as if it was a fact. Thus, I sought to find out if he had concrete evidence, in the case that others took it to be a fact.
Even now, it is a fact that is hard to prove. I am not saying he is wrong, just that he may not be totally right as well. The actual answer may be somewhere in between.
A thread may be closed when nothing new is added to the topic. A thread can also be closed because it has degenerated into a slingfest. Or it may be closed as the request of the OP. We don't know and would be too hasty to assume.
With that, I hope this clarified your doubts. I do not argue for a side specifically but I believe in being distinct on what is opinion and what is fact.
Btw, I addressed you because I wanted to add context to my reply. To quote the whole chunk would be a bit messy and I have no skill with Spoiler tags. Please do not think this is rude or in anyway condescending.
We do know why the threads were closed. The mods stated in the last post before those threads were locked why they were locked. Each time it was a warning for people to stop trying to silence opposition and criticism of GW, that opposing views are not just acceptable, but necessary for a discussion. I haven't found anything to the contrary. I can't say I've "proven" my point, but I can say it's "Most likely."
Something positive. Outside of GW there is a booming golden age of wargames and I haven't been this excited in a long time. I want to try them all but have limited resources and time.
So many great games and miniature manufacturers out there that it's hard to list them all.
milkboy wrote: Yonan, I was asking the initial question because MWHistorian has stated it as if it was a fact. Thus, I sought to find out if he had concrete evidence, in the case that others took it to be a fact.
Even now, it is a fact that is hard to prove. I am not saying he is wrong, just that he may not be totally right as well. The actual answer may be somewhere in between.
A thread may be closed when nothing new is added to the topic. A thread can also be closed because it has degenerated into a slingfest. Or it may be closed as the request of the OP. We don't know and would be too hasty to assume.
With that, I hope this clarified your doubts. I do not argue for a side specifically but I believe in being distinct on what is opinion and what is fact.
Btw, I addressed you because I wanted to add context to my reply. To quote the whole chunk would be a bit messy and I have no skill with Spoiler tags. Please do not think this is rude or in anyway condescending.
We do know why the threads were closed. The mods stated in the last post before those threads were locked why they were locked. Each time it was a warning for people to stop trying to silence opposition and criticism of GW, that opposing views are not just acceptable, but necessary for a discussion. I haven't found anything to the contrary. I can't say I've "proven" my point, but I can say it's "Most likely."
Something positive. Outside of GW there is a booming golden age of wargames and I haven't been this excited in a long time. I want to try them all but have limited resources and time.
So many great games and miniature manufacturers out there that it's hard to list them all.
So instead of saying it's a fact, it's probably fair to say, "In every example I can find..."
In the few months since I've quit 40k, I've participated in some of the GW criticism threads and my experience was that the pro-GW folks would seem to take things a lot more personally for some reason. The thread about the 7th LE that got locked got fairly vicious in ridiculously quick manner.
However, since I finally got my friends to try Warmachine and we're all hooked on that, I've become pretty indifferent to GW and haven't really participated in many 40k threads. I think a lot of us have stated our peace and moved on. If I really felt like an argument, I could jump in, but honestly I don't really care anymore beyond wanting more people to try Warmachine so I have more people to play with. :-)
melkorthetonedeaf wrote: I'm still not really sure why the poll about breasts got locked.... i'm a little saddened.
Because all we want is out there, from Vinni's miniatures, Kingdom of the dead to bombshell mini's to Hasslefree to etcetera there are mini style breasts for everyone.
The problem of these kind of threads getting locked is that some people take other opinions too personal.
slowthar wrote: However, since I finally got my friends to try Warmachine and we're all hooked on that, I've become pretty indifferent to GW and haven't really participated in many 40k threads. I think a lot of us have stated our peace and moved on. If I really felt like an argument, I could jump in, but honestly I don't really care anymore beyond wanting more people to try Warmachine so I have more people to play with. :-)
As has been said, the absolute worst thing for GW is for people to be apathetic and move on like you and your mates have. I can see why you wouldn't bother posting there anymore too.
I played two different ork players, two days in a row. I lost to the first, realizing things that could have been done differently. I defeated the second, though I was well on the way of being tabled. Both games were absolutely fun. The maelstrom of war tactical cards can make or break a game. I suggest everyone try each of the games and see how much fun you can have.
GW just put out a fabulous boxed set that contains two small forces, a book with special scenarios, and even a mini-rulebook. It's the type of product that would be great for getting new people involved in the game.
Naturally, GW is stocking this game in abundance, and not just in their own stores and FLGS, but also in major toy-store chains, as that's the best way to get massive exposure for a fantastic product that would create so much business.
Of course that last paragraph is crap. GW are actually making it a limited item and the closest thing they did to "advertise it" is put up an unlisted YouTube video.
They really just can't take any steps forwards these days can they? Its always blatantly backwards (halving dire avengers) or they look like they are about to step forwards and then *limited edition* and it turns into a side step.
I dunno, I don't really see the limited nature of the campaign box as a problem, if they're aiming for a steady stream of them.
If it's limited enough quantities that it sells out overnight, then yes, that's a little silly. But as just one of a succession of campaign boxes... well, when this one sells out, there will be another one coming.
I would also expect that the book will be made available separately at some point for those who just want the campaign material.
Kilkrazy wrote: I think campaign sets are a really good idea.
So do I, but...
Kilkrazy wrote: It doesn't matter that it is limited because not everyone plays Orks. Also it is a sort of product that clubs and groups will buy.
It does matter. This is the kind of thing that GW should be using to get out there. They should be making this new series of products work for them, rather than just releasing them and saying "Ok, feed at the trough at your own pace".
Positive thought: after not being able to arrange a game of 40k for months, I got one last night that was the first outing of my Tau army! And I won!
But wait...looks like I need to buy the new rulebook. No problem, I see the rules have a book to themselves. Oh...I have to pay £50 to get them as they come with a book of fluff (which hasn't changed to any meaningful degree for years) and a photo book, both of which are, to be honest, neither use nor ornament to me.
It's a separate book...would it kill them to at least try to lower the barrier to entry, or not squeeze more money from people who played 6th, and sell it separately? I had similar thoughts about the plastic Meganobz, models I might have eagerly grabbed at one point but which now have a little bit of my mind going "Are you mad? £38 for 3 plastic miniatures?" And the plastic Flash Gitz (£32 for 5 infantry).
Joking aside, I think I'll have to buy the book eventually. And I know complaining about the prices is pretty predictable by this point. But when one company (or anything, for that matter) reaches a point when someone feels a need to make a special "positive thinking week" maybe there needs to be a look at why these complaints exist in the first place, and the insane pricing is my personal complaint.
I believe that the new starter box (Space Wolves versus Space Orks) will contain a softback rulebook with the full text of the rules book out of the £50 set.
These will begin to make their way on to the secondhand market via eBay.
Positive Thought Bombshell: As I sell all my stuff and keep the models I want to paint, I'm way more positive about GW minis! I am buying a few fantasy models that I will enjoy painting, but never bought because the thought of having the models to actually play them turned me sour.
So that's positive... for me... But I'm buying them all used, so GW won't be happy...
Aaand another thread in 40k general bites the dust due to the blow-out from insulting posters. By name this time even! As evidenced in that thread, they quickly derail when insults get thrown around. If you want a more positive 40k general - stop throwing insults.
(What I want to know is, how the hell did he find out about our private message sessions?!?! Someones leaking!)
I didn't, that makes me very, very sad. I should clearly be complaining more.
On a positive note actually I did buy something GW from an actual GW store yesterday and I plan on spending a lot more money there in the next couple of weeks too!
I wandered past it and found that behind the new Hobbit crap there were still a bunch of boxes of the old Lord of the Rings models hidden away. I scored me some uruki scouts and plan to go back for gondor and dwarf rangers, morgul and swan knights, moria goblins, and possibly things like rohan infantry and riders, easterlings and, well, a ton of other stuff.
These are the models I got into the hobby with (moria goblins where actually the first things I ever painted) so the nostalgia factor is huge there. they aren't that expensive even though the box contents where halved a while back (I remember 24 models for $35au, now it's like 37.50 for 12. Annoying yes, but I can afford it). And, the best part, they are some great Perry brothers sculpts, the plastics aren't amazing being ten years old but the detail and scale is brilliant.
There are a lot of boxes there that I'm going to use for D&D, and more I will probably buy just to have and paint. For the moment I am ecstatic about these models.
I would have bought stormclaw if it was models I liked, I think GW is doing something decent with that - other than the supposed ridiculously limited quantity of it, again. Good discount on models, full rules (they are full right?) and a campaign thingie. If such things popped up every 3 months and the game rules were good, I'd probably buy them all tbh - I'm not averse to getting lots of small armies for each faction even if I'm not a huge fan of the army in question. However the bad ruleset pretty much makes that a no-go for me unless I really like the models.
So yes, whilst Stormclaw *is* a positive thing when taken alone, it's seriously let down by the basic rules for me at least, making Stormclaw being good largely irrelevant.
The most positive thing I think I can say about 40k (which has been said before, but is worth repeating) is that when someone other than GW is writing about it, it's likely to be amazing and waht 40k is truly about. HBMC++ in that regard - I was reading through Only War again and damn, I love it ; p Having your name in the credits of that stuff should make you proud, it's a high quality product from start to finish that enriches 40k more than any book I've seen GW put out since I started. The FW Horus Heresy ones would be about the only thing in the vicinity quality wise I think. After stopping playing 40k tabletop wargaming, I'm seriously considering setting up a 40k tabletop RPG group with the mates, something I haven't done since high school.
That's three where GW apologist get the thread locked because they don't like differing opinions. Show us one where a GW critic insulted someone that liked GW and got the thread locked.
Let's derail it further, but talk about the 40KRPG instead. I could use the ego boost after whatshisface didn't name drop me among the "regular moaners".
If it was me, i'd spin it as being left out because of good work on one of the few good 40k things balancing out the "baseless whining" about everything else ; p
As I said in the ebook pricing thread, GW could learn from FFG - the ebooks being 50% of the hard copy price is a great move. So yeah, they really are awesome ; )
I'm going to my first Warmachine tournament tomorrow having never played a 50pt level list ever.
... last time I did something like this was FoB Open and I went 4-2 with my Draigowing having never played it once, so hey, maybe I get my dumb luck again?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Let's derail it further, but talk about the 40KRPG instead. I could use the ego boost after whatshisface didn't name drop me among the "regular moaners".
I'm just finishing collecting my 40k library and on the wargaming side of things, there's nothing on my shelves published after 1998, everything before 1998 (though I'm short a few white dwarfs) and... the Fantasy Flight 40kRPGs. I'm missing some accessory products like the GM screens, but it's a worthy successor to the original art and fiction of 40k and belongs on my shelf alongside Lost & The Damned and 'Ere We Go.
Yonan wrote: I would have bought stormclaw if it was models I liked, I think GW is doing something decent with that - other than the supposed ridiculously limited quantity of it, again. Good discount on models, full rules (they are full right?) and a campaign thingie. If such things popped up every 3 months and the game rules were good, I'd probably buy them all tbh - I'm not averse to getting lots of small armies for each faction even if I'm not a huge fan of the army in question. However the bad ruleset pretty much makes that a no-go for me unless I really like the models.
So yes, whilst Stormclaw *is* a positive thing when taken alone, it's seriously let down by the basic rules for me at least, making Stormclaw being good largely irrelevant.
Sad thing is I haven't tried the rules to see, I was looking at buying Stormclaw to build a small army and get back into 40k since it's still popular here and I figure I really should give it a fair shake instead of just jumping on the "40k sucks" bandwagon based on what I've read and hearsay when I haven't played in a decade, but what's souring me is knowing that I still need to drop a few hundred. I do also play Warmachine, I am starting Bolt Action, and I'm buying some (very cheap, granted) Ancient figures to play some historical games as well. That's a lot of spare money to throw around so something has to be cut since that would leave me with very little pocket money each month for things like food and groceries :(
I'm just finishing collecting my 40k library and on the wargaming side of things, there's nothing on my shelves published after 1998, everything before 1998 (though I'm short a few white dwarfs) and... the Fantasy Flight 40kRPGs. I'm missing some accessory products like the GM screens, but it's a worthy successor to the original art and fiction of 40k and belongs on my shelf alongside Lost & The Damned and 'Ere We Go.
My shelves are probably quite similar. FFGRPG books, lots of RT/2nd ed stuff, a smattering of newer books that I bought when I still played and of course lots of books for other wargames.
It took me a while to track down all the late RT, early 2E stuff, but for some reason, the early RT stuff was really easy to find. I have a copy of the 3rd edition book, but nothing published after that. For all the problems 2nd edition 40k and 4th/5th edition whfb had, they were the games that grew GW from a small UK importer of D&D into an international game company.
. Then put in that the post is off topic. The mods here are great and if it really is irrelevant to the thread topic, they'll remove the posts.
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