Can an invisible unit be hit by wall of death ? I think yes, others think no, what do you think and why?

Wall of Death causes automatic hits. Since the only requirement is to Snap Shot, and nothing restricts auto-hits from effecting when snap shooting, then yes, Wall of Death still works. As well as a blast that scatters or template that extends into the unit.

That answers my nexr question too, but just to be sure I will say it anyway. If you place a blast at another unit and some invisible models are under it, do they get hit? I guess yes.

Yes, as they were not targeted. This also means they cannot Jink, if eligible.

Hmmm they cannot declare jink true, they could still get the save if they had already jinked though.

 Happyjew wrote:
Since the only requirement is to Snap Shot

Template Weapons, Special Rule: "Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots."

Wall of Death: "Template Weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Invisibility says you can only fire Snap Shots. If you can't even fire, doesn't matter whether it automatically hits. No, you can't fire a template weapon at an Invisible unit on Overwatch.

Wall of Death takes precedence over the Invisibility rule if the unit with flamers is being assaulted by the invisible unit.

Wall of Death is specifically for Overwatch and notes that even though they cant fire Snap Shots which Invisbility requires, they can still overwatch, and hit automatically

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Wall of Death takes precedence over the Invisibility rule if the unit with flamers is being assaulted by the by the invisible unit.

There is no rules support for that statement.

The rules you posted supports it

Wall of Death: "Template Weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
The rules you posted supports it

Wall of Death: "Template Weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

No it doesn't. It doesn't say that Wall of Death overrides Invisibility. To shoot an assaulting Invisible unit, you have to able to do two things, make Snap Shots and fire Overwatch. If you can't do both, you can't shoot them.

You are aware the only way to Overwatch is to snap shot unless something gives you permission otherwise

Your reasoning would mean a flamer could never Overwatch since it cant snap shot, even though a flamer has permission to Overwatch per the Wall of Death rule.

Being invisible is irrelevant. You're not shooting at the unit, you're using the weapon's rule to Overwatch, which hits automatically.

Hitting Automatically bypasses Invisibility.

WrentheFaceless is right about this one. While flamers cannot snap shoot, Overwatch is a special maneuver that normally requires snap shots, but in the case of flamers, are recorded as auto hits. Overwatch is not specifically snap shooting, it is Overwatch. A model that fires a special kind of Overwatch does so regardless of what is assaulting it. Wall of Death>Invisibility.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
You are aware the only way to Overwatch is to snap shot unless something gives you permission otherwise

Your reasoning would mean a flamer could never Overwatch since it cant snap shot, even though a flamer has permission to Overwatch per the Wall of Death rule.

Being invisible is irrelevant. You're not shooting at the unit, you're using the weapon's rule to Overwatch, which hits automatically.

Hitting Automatically bypasses Invisibility.

No. My argument is that it overrides the Overwatch requirement to Snap Shot because it specifically says so, but it does not override the requirement to Snap Shot at an Invisible unit because it does not specifically say it can. It can't shoot them in the Shooting phase. An interpretation that makes it more effective on Overwatch is incorrect.

Yes, it cant shoot in the shooting phase, but its special rule allows it to Overwatch, and does D3 automatic hits.

Post rules that say Invisibility negates the Wall of Death rule.

Wall of Death is a special rule. The weapon is not firing, therefore Invisibility has no bearing no it.

I thought Invisibility didn't allow you to fire overwatch? Don't have access to my book at the moment.

'Wall of Death' is a snap shot, specific to template weapons when fired on Overwatch.

it is ghaz, but all they see is "has to snap shot" and "template weapons cannot be snap shot". They fail to understand that the "wall of death" special rule is the thing actually generating the D3 hits and not the flamer itself.

Looked it up. It appears you can now use counterattack against Invisible units. Also, contrary to what I was told, invisibility does not confer immunity to overwatch. Must have been a house rule.

Fragile wrote:
Wall of Death is a special rule. The weapon is not firing, therefore Invisibility has no bearing no it.

The first sentence under Wall of Death says otherwise.

Eihnlazer wrote:
it is ghaz, but all they see is "has to snap shot" and "template weapons cannot be snap shot". They fail to understand that the "wall of death" special rule is the thing actually generating the D3 hits and not the flamer itself.

Second sentence of Wall of Death says otherwise.

Look at it this way. If someone is using a flamer, you are running headlong into a wall of flame whether they know you're there or not.

Angelic wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Wall of Death is a special rule. The weapon is not firing, therefore Invisibility has no bearing no it.

The first sentence under Wall of Death says otherwise.

Eihnlazer wrote:
it is ghaz, but all they see is "has to snap shot" and "template weapons cannot be snap shot". They fail to understand that the "wall of death" special rule is the thing actually generating the D3 hits and not the flamer itself.

Second sentence of Wall of Death says otherwise.

First sentence.

""Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.""

Again, the rule is applying hits, not the weapon. Otherwise you would place the template and count hits, which you do not.

From 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

From 'Wall of Death':

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots.

So again, template weapons can fire Overwatch using the 'Wall of Death' rule. This makes 'Wall of Death' a special type of Snap Shot since any shot fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

From 'Wall of Death':

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots.

So again, template weapons can fire Overwatch using the 'Wall of Death' rule. This makes 'Wall of Death' a special type of Snap Shot since any shot fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

I disagree. It is explicitly not a snap shot. It is a special rule that applies to overwatch.

It is a specific type of Snap Shot, as noted by the words fire/fired in both of the rules I quoted above.

I agree. It is a specific type of snap shot. One that hits automatically and overides the rule preventing templates being able to snap shot.

Fragile wrote:


Again, the rule is applying hits, not the weapon. Otherwise you would place the template and count hits, which you do not.

So, when the rule says that when the WEAPON FIRES OVERWATCH, IT [the weapon] inflicts D3 hits, you are saying it's not the weapon inflicting hits? Even though the rule explicitly says it is? Wow.

#1 If the weapon is not inflicting D3 hits, at what S and AP do we resolve the attack at?

#2 There are 2 seperate restrictions here. It has been shown how Wall of Death overides the Overwatch restriction. Where in the rule does it overide the invisibility retriction?

It overrides it because Wall of Death is a specific type of Snap Shot that a Template weapon can use when firing Overwatch.

Can you give a rule quote on that? From what has been posted it is a special type of attack that is usable during Overwatch.

Already quoted above (LINK).

what you quoted was a restriction and how you fire a template weapon in overwatch. The weapon itself has a restrcition stating that it cannot be fired as a snap shot. If wall of death is a snap shot it cannot be used. You need to quote a rule that specifically names Wall of Death as a snap shot to make it so.

And what does the first rules passage I quoted say? The only way that can be true is if 'Wall of Death' is a type of Snap Shot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, as they were not targeted. This also means they cannot Jink, if eligible.

Since blast targets models per BRB and not units how can you place the blast above a unit that cannot be hit by blasts?
I mean, blast can't fire snapshots, if you place the blast above a unit and you target a couple of models from an invisible unit
Isn't that unit an illegal target? I thought that only scatter counted, since if you place he blast from the start you are targeting both units.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Since blast targets models per BRB and not units...

That is not true. Blast targets units just like any other weapon. You're combining how a Blast weapon hits (Step #4 of the Shooting Sequence) with how it determines who's the target (Step #2 of the Shooting Sequence).

So what you are saying is that a blast targeting unit A and both invisible unit B ignores invisibility?
Also about wall of death does it ignore invisibility? I see people mentioning that it doesn't as it still
counts as firing snap shots.

A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

 Ghaz wrote:
A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

Yes but can you place it before rolling scatter above a unit and target an invisible unit in addition?

Again, you only target one unit. Invisibility only prevents the unit from being targeted, not hit. If they're under a legally placed blast marker then they're hit.

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

Yes but can you place it before rolling scatter above a unit and target an invisible unit in addition?

You aren't targeting them, you're only targeting the non-invisible unit.

Ok thanks for the answer. What about wall of death? Can it hit an invisible unit?

Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

Mr.T wrote:
Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

There is zero rules support for the underlined portion.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Mr.T wrote:
Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

There is zero rules support for the underlined portion.

Considering the only way to overwatch is to snap shot, and wall of death gives the flamer permission to overwatch, the unit being invisible is irrelevant.

Template and blast weapons can't fire snap shots but the wall of death rule allows you to Overwatch by rolling a D3 auto hits.

If you're invisible, template and blast weapons can't target you since they can only fire snap shots

But if you assault a unit with flamers or template weapons, they are allowed to wall of death you since it's a special type of Overwatch that allows you to defend yourself from an assault

It is in fact relevant.

I'll break it down.

Invisible unit declares charge.
Charged unit wishes to fire overwatch.
Flamer is slected.
Check- unit may only fire snapshots in overwatch.
Flamers may not fire snap shots.
Wall of death is a specific exception to the overwatch restriction.
Flamer targets invisible unit.
Check- when shooting at an invisble unit, you may only fire snap shots.
Flamers may not fire snap shots.
There is no rule that gives flamers permission to ignore the specific restriction set by Invisiblity.

In other words, there are two seperate, unrelated rules limiting us to snap shots. (Overwatch and Invisibility). Wall of Death allows us to bypass the restriction put forth by Overwatch, but NOT invisibility.

A further example would be a vehicle which moved 12" and received a crew shaken result. This vehicle would be forced to fire snap shots for 2 reasons.
1)It moved 12"
2)crew shaken

Now take a Dark Eldar Ravager for example, which can fire all three guns at full BS after moving 12"
If that same Ravager received a crew shaken result, it would still be restricted to snap shots. The ravager's special rule only aplies to restriction #1(and not #2), just as Wall of Death only apllies to Overwatch (and not Invisibility).

THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection

Wall of death works on invisible units

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

No they dont, the wounds are generated by the Wall of Death rule, not the flamer targeting the invisible unit

Wall of Death wounds automatically hit which bypasses invisbility, and they have permission to wall of death as they're overwatching

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

No they dont, the wounds are generated by the Wall of Death rule, not the flamer targeting the invisible unit

Wall of Death wounds automatically hit which bypasses invisbility, and they have permission to wall of death as they're overwatching

Actually Wall of Death generates hits, not wounds and does not need to "target" the charging unit for invisibility to take effect. It just needs to be a shooting attack, which Wall of Death is.

They dont have permission to overwatch, they have permission to use Wall of Death. 2 different things.

Again, you have provided no rules support to support your theory, and you have failed to adress the Ravager example as well.

Wall of death is an overwatch attack. Overwatch attacks are snapshots. Erego, if wall of death = overwatch, overwatch = snapshots, then wall of death = snapshots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Actually Wall of Death generates hits, not wounds and does not need to "target" the charging unit for invisibility to take effect. It just needs to be a shooting attack, which Wall of Death is.

They dont have permission to overwatch, they have permission to use Wall of Death. 2 different things.

Again, you have provided no rules support to support your theory, and you have failed to adress the Ravager example as well.

You havent provided any rules support to prove that Invisible units get double snapshot protection when assaulting against a Rule that Automatically hits and has permission to overwatch

Wall of Death allows flamers to generate D3 automatic hits, automatic hits bypass invisibility such as Nova Powers do.

They have permission to Overwatch when being assaulted per the Wall of Death rule, that is their overwatch, they dont need additional persmission to do what the rule grants

And the Ravager example is irrelevant.

Please provide an actual quote from the BRB that says Wall of Death is a snap shot.

Please provide an actual qoute that says automatic hits bypass invisibility.

Ravager example is very relevant. By your logic a shaken Ravager that moves 12" can fire all its weapons at full BS because the Aerial Assault rule gives it permission to fire all wepons at full BS. The ravager has two restrictions on it.
1) it moved 12", may only fire snap shots.
2)crew shaken, may only fire snap shots.
Aerial Assault bypasses condition 1, but not condition 2. Therefore we may only fire snapshots due to crew shaken.

The Flamer has two restrictions.
1)overwatch, may only fire snapshots
2)firing at an invisible unit, may only fire snap shots.
Wall of Death bypasses condition 1, but not condition 2.
Therefore the flamer may only fire snap shots due to Invisibility, which flamers can NEVER do.

Again Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. If you think it is, provide a qoute that supports it.

Provide an actual quote that the reqirement to hit an invisbile unit with Snap Shots stacks with the requirement to hit a unit with Overwatch with snap shots

The phrase "Automatically hits' within specific rules are the rule that they bypass invisbility, it hits automatically. You dont have to make a roll to hit against the Invisible unit

Enough with the strawmans, Flamers have permission to overwatch per wall of death. Wall of death generates automatic hits, therefor it can hit an invisible unit

Invisible units do not get double snap shot protection, unless you can quote a rule that they do

Still waiting for you to quote a page number to back up anything you are saying

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Still waiting for you to quote a page number to back up anything you are saying

Still waiting for your page numbers as well to back up what you're saying

Do you want the page numbers for Invisibility and Overwatch?

The rules themselves are what grant them permission to place restrictions on the firing unit. They do not need permission to "stack" as you say. They are two independent restrictions.

Wall of Death provides a specific exception to the restriction placed by Overwatch. You have the burden of proof here. You need to find a quote that gives a SPECIFIC exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Do you want the page numbers for Invisibility and Overwatch?

The rules themselves are what grant them permission to place restrictions on the firing unit. They do not need permission to "stack" as you say. They are two independent restrictions.

Wall of Death provides a specific exception to the restriction placed by Overwatch. You have the burden of proof here. You need to find a quote that gives a SPECIFIC exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility.

No you have the burden to prove that two rules that hve the same restriction to shooting stack. The fact that you have to snap shot to Overwatch and Snapshot to hit Invisible targets. And that they're allowed to stack and prevent Flamers from using the Wall of Death rule, which permits them to overwatch instead of snapshotting, and generates auto-auto hits.

Please post the rule that states they stack

double post, fixed it.

This is where you are wrong. Stacking is irrelevant as they are two seprate restrictions set forth by two unrelated rules. They dont stack, they co-exist. JUST LIKE THE SNAP SHOOTING RESTRICTIONS ON THE RAVAGER...which you have failed to coment on.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

*Edit* Realized my post probably doesn't fit what is looked for on this particular forum. Please disregard. *Edit*

It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

Please give me the page and paragraph where it says "Wall of Death is a snapshot."

Iirc invisibility precludes template weapons being used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is that just due to snap shots? I can't remember

 Bausk wrote:
Iirc invisibility precludes template weapons being used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is that just due to snap shots? I can't remember

Its only because of snap shots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

Please give me the page and paragraph where it says "Wall of Death is a snapshot."

Again, as has been quoted multiple times in this thread. From 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots

Since 'Wall of Death' is fired per the wording of it's rules as Overwatch, it must be a Snap Shot.

 Ghaz wrote:
Since 'Wall of Death' is fired per the wording of it's rules as Overwatch, it must be a Snap Shot.

It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not. It is a special rule of the template weapons that grants it permission to be used in overwatch. Specific > General.

Fragile wrote:
It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not.

Then please quote where it says as much, because the rule clearly says that the Template weapon fire Overwatch and any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.

Overwatch is snapshots by default because the rules for Overwatch tell us that "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." (The assault Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section).

...An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on... Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch

...Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the chargingunit,

Wall of Death is a specific rule that overrides the normal overwatch rules. They are not snap shots, however, They are automatic hits against the unit. If we're going nitty gritty RAW here, it at no point says that the bearer of the Wall of Death eligible weapon at any point "targets" the charging unit. It just says that it automatically inflict D3 hits on the charging unit.

Invisible unit charging unit with flamer.
Recipient unit of charge must resolve weapons one at a time.
Elects to overwatch with las guns. Target the unit with snap shots. Legal.
Elects to overwatch with flamer. Automatic hits scored on the unit. No snap shots, but no explicit targeting at any point occurs. The charging unit is automatically scored hits on.

Seeing as our nose is already to the grindstone, in this circumstance, because the template weapon is NOT firing (because it cant fire snapshots), it technically also does not benefit from the ignores cover rule or any other special rules the weapon may have, because "...it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value...." mentions nothing about special rules, just applying automatic hits with the same S and AP as the template weapon being wielded.

Ghaz wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not.

Then please quote where it says as much, because the rule clearly says that the Template weapon fire Overwatch and any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

DeathReaper wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.

Overwatch is snapshots by default because the rules for Overwatch tell us that "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." (The assault Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section).

Again I quote:

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

INSTEAD of firing snap shots, flamers inflict D3 hits.
Do I need to define instead?

And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

Angelic wrote:

Fragile wrote:


Again, the rule is applying hits, not the weapon. Otherwise you would place the template and count hits, which you do not.

So, when the rule says that when the WEAPON FIRES OVERWATCH, IT [the weapon] inflicts D3 hits, you are saying it's not the weapon inflicting hits? Even though the rule explicitly says it is? Wow.

I'm a little late to the party here, so this may have been picked up already, but..

Look at the No Escape rule. It tells you to resolve d6 hits against units embarked in open-top transports with the firing flamer's S and AP, but does not say that the weapon itself hits them. You simply resolve hits with the profile stats against the unit.

It's wonky, but there's a precedent for "The weapon hits you but doesn't hit you" silliness.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

The Specific Rules of Wall of Death override the General Rules of Overwatch. 40k is a game of exceptions EDIT: and at no point in the wording of it does it say they are snap shots. Instead, it actually explicitly uses the word "instead" to describe what Wall of Death is in comparison to a normal overwatch snapshot. Therefore, not a snapshot. Invisible units can only be hit by Snap shots, but I would argue that is overridden by the "automatically hit" clause in the wall of death wording.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

Its funny because you are actually the one "cherry picking" here.

"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."
This is the restriction.

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."
This is the SPECIFIC EXCEPTION to that very rule. Its a very simple case of basic vs advanced rules.(pg 13 in the black box, last paragraph) The basic rule being Overwatch, and the Advanced Rule being Wall of Death. Since Wall of Death is the more advanced rule and takes precedence, we know that its is in fact, NOT a snap shot. (as the rule clearly states)

Ill make you a deal charge me please. Do this in a match with me and my sisters or blood angels in please with a squad has 2 flamers in it. Better yet do this at a mega huge torney and watch the TO laugh in your face and giggle when you argue with him.

Page 173 BRB under Template Weapons 7ed

But to this guys credit. While they do have a cool picture of the flamer template below the rule lol. They forget to actually say flamers in the rule for 7ed.

Mean while back in the nice 6ed rules book page 52 the huge one it actually specifies flamers and other template weapons oops.

Looks like we found another boo boo for 7th ed. lol




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So all weapons like plasma cannons, missile launchers, And flamers all get d3 hits or none do lol.

Fireraven wrote:
Ill make you a deal charge me please. Do this in a match with me and my sisters or blood angels in please with a squad has 2 flamers in it. Better yet do this at a mega huge torney and watch the TO laugh in your face and giggle when you argue with him.

Page 173 BRB under Template Weapons 7ed

But to this guys credit. While they do have a cool picture of the flamer template below the rule lol. They forget to actually say flamers in the rule for 7ed.

Mean while back in the nice 6ed rules book page 52 the huge one it actually specifies flamers and other template weapons oops.

Looks like we found another boo boo for 7th ed. lol




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So all weapons like plasma cannons, missile launchers, And flamers all get d3 hits or none do lol.

blasts and templates aren't the same thing.

also to continue the back and forth, I would argue that the "automatically hits" modifier overrides the "needs to hit on 6s"

Very nice arguments everyone. To help a bit think this.
A jetbike with a flamer declares jink so it fires snap shots. It gets charged. Does it get wall of death ?
A unit with a flamer is falling back and gets charged. Does it get wall of death?

I say yes to all cases. Because "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots." (First sentence on wall of death ruling, under the Template entry at the special rules section.)
Template weapons are not resolving overwatch using snap shots. They are the exception to the rule that overwatch is only snap shots. Invisibility is not preventing overwatch, so wall of death rule applies.

Seems silly to argue for an already OP ability to be even stronger. While I can't argue how invisibility works, I feel it should force attacks at BS1, not snapshots. It's a really dumb rule imo as in any other game 'area of effect' attacks (blasts/templates) are the answer to invisible gak, not negated by it, but that is beside the point.

But back to the dispute in question "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."

there's nothing there that disputes the fact that overwatch attacks are still classed as snapshots. The 'instead' is there to change the resolution of hits, giving d3 hits vs rolling 6's to hit, allowing a template weapon to fire this very specific type of snap shot.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."

If wall of death is a snap shot how can it be fired from a template weapon? The rule quoted above tells you template weapons can never fire snap shots. As has been pointed out several times 40k is a game of exceptions. Just because something happens at a certain time does not mean that it follows all rules for that time. When you move vehicles in the movement phase do you follow every rule in the infantry section on movement even though you are moving a skimmer? During shooting, if you shoot with a monolith do you fire at one unit per the shooting rules or do you use the rules specifically allowed by the weapon systems on the monolith to target more than one unit? These are just two of them that could be brought fourth to illustrate that you cannot use a restriction to define an exception. If you can then in the shooting above I can force you to move your two units into coherency as I can only fire at one unit so therefor it must mean they are a single unit correct?

I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

 Nem wrote:
I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

But WoD is not a snap shot. It isn't even a shot. It doesn't use BS. It is an auto d3 hits. It is a "special ability" used on overwatch.

I agree with extremefreak: Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot.

If it was, there would be more than one Snap Shot=Wall of Death just because you're in the assault phase.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

This works differently.

You have 2 permissions here in the Rule:

1) You have permission to fire overwatch.
2) When you do, you "automatically inflicts D3 hits"

How does invisibility counter any of these?
Does it deny "automatic hits"?
Would a Nova not hit invisible units?

Please quote the rule saying so if there is...

 humanas wrote:

 Nem wrote:
I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

But WoD is not a snap shot. It isn't even a shot. It doesn't use BS. It is an auto d3 hits. It is a "special ability" used on overwatch.

It's still a 'shot' as it is a shooting attack, just it uses it's own method of generating hits. Instead of rolling to hit to generate your hits you generate D3 hits.

if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value

It's still firing, and using values from the shooting weapon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree with extremefreak: Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot.

If it was, there would be more than one Snap Shot=Wall of Death just because you're in the assault phase.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

This works differently.

You have 2 permissions here in the Rule:

1) You have permission to fire overwatch.
2) When you do, you "automatically inflicts D3 hits"

How does invisibility counter any of these?
Does it deny "automatic hits"?
Would a Nova not hit invisible units?

Please quote the rule saying so if there is...

Whilst the power is
in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Is it a snapshot? If not it can not be fired at the invisible target. It denies anything which isn't a snap shot.

Snap shots;

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

 Nem wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

Quoting the WoD rule for clarity: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead,
if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value."

I can't understand why Wod is a shooting attack. It is an automatic d3 hits with the flamer weapon. Just like eldar mandiblasters is an automatic S3 hit, a Necron lightning field is an automatic d6 hits S8 AP5 and so on. An invisible unit would still suffer those hits, right ?

 Nem wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

It's a Special Rule?

 Nem wrote:

Whilst the power is
in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Is it a snapshot? If not it can not be fired at the invisible target. It denies anything which isn't a snap shot.

Snap shots;

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

So enemy units can only fire snap shots, but Wall of Death:"even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Template weapons can fire (Overwatch)"
I have a permission over-ruling that specific restriction.
Does invisibility have a restriction on weapons that can fire "instead" of snap shots?

And invisibility protects from Novas? really?

Read through most of the stuff and super skimmed the last 4 or 5 post but the "Instead" part on the firing template on overwatch. Maybe the instead isn't talking about instead of firing snapshots but is tell you that instead of placeing the templace to measure hits? it's nearly 5 in the morning sooooo kinda loopy but someone tell me if this is a possibility?

Ok to put another way. Hammer of wrath is a special rule. Does it mean its not a CC attack? As in, you can take cover saves from Hammer of wrath? Grav weapon is a special rule, does that mean its not a shooting attack?

HoW causes auto hits, is a special rule and in separate passage is noted as a CC attack.

Nearly all 'attack' types fall into 2 category. Shooting attack or CC Attack, we always resolve them as one or another.

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

6th ed snap shot FaQ for reference:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

As noted this is a old FAQ - but it gives us the reason why, and no rules concerned have changed in 7th. [Edit] I lied, Nova has indeed changed to include hitting 'Flyers and FMC's', although not clear if that includes Swooping / Zooming ones as it's not specified, might have something to do with Automatic targeting? or they thought putting it in bold would just be enough /rolleyes

I think we are getting a little sidetracked. So if I understand you correctly WoD is an attack that is not a snap shot therefore it can't hit an invisible unit.

Let me ask you then, if a unit is forced to only fire snap shots, because of reasons, does it use it WoD when assaulted?

 humanas wrote:
I think we are getting a little sidetracked. So if I understand you correctly WoD is an attack that is not a snap shot therefore it can't hit an invisible unit.

Let me ask you then, if a unit is forced to only fire snap shots, because of reasons, does it use it WoD when assaulted?

From memory, I believe no, as there would be a restriction on the firing unit can only fire snapshots, and an allowance to fire WoD during overwatch.

This would be following the same principle of multiple restrictions where a permission only 'counters' (if you like) one of them. The most used example of this, in 6th was assault vehicles (now assault vehicles have extra wording around them). Ignoring the 7th extra clarity you have...

Assault vehicle with passengers comes in from reserves, Restriction: embarked unit can not assault that turn.
Transports have a inherent Restriction; embarked units can not assault turn they disembark
Assault vehicle with passengers has special rule Permission: units can charge the turn they disembark.

In that example, the unit could not charge from the assault vehicle if it's arrived from reserves. In 7th they actually tagged on the line to the assault vehicle special rule (can assault unless arrived from reserves).

My problem is that invisibility does not protect from automatic hits. The unit is allowed to fire overwatch, and as soon as overwatch is fired the hits are inflicted. Even if we consider WoD a shooting attack (something that I am still not truly sold on) it is one that automatically hits. The unit can only be hit by snap shots but we bypass the Roll to hit part of the shooting sequence and that is the part that snap shots are relevant. You see the defender does not fire a snap shot, but automatically inflicts hits, bypassing the attack part.

Too far fetched ?

 Nem wrote:
Ok to put another way. Hammer of wrath is a special rule. Does it mean its not a CC attack? As in, you can take cover saves from Hammer of wrath?

HoW is a special rule that grants an extra Attack. Since Attacks ignore cover, yes, this Attack ignores cover.

Grav weapon is a special rule, does that mean its not a shooting attack?

Grave Weapon is not a special rule, it's a weapon type. Graviton is a special rule.

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

6th ed snap shot FaQ for reference:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

As noted this is a old FAQ - but it gives us the reason why, and no rules concerned have changed in 7th. [Edit] I lied, Nova has indeed changed to include hitting 'Flyers and FMC's', although not clear if that includes Swooping / Zooming ones as it's not specified, might have something to do with Automatic targeting? or they thought putting it in bold would just be enough /rolleyes

Well if we are using 6th ed FAQs for reference (even if admitting they are not applicable anymore),

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

So, lets see. When firing Overwatch, Template weapons automatically hit. Since Overwatch is a Snap Shot, and Template weapons auto hit, they still [pause inserted for dramatic effect] automatically hit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Ok to put another way. Hammer of wrath is a special rule. Does it mean its not a CC attack? As in, you can take cover saves from Hammer of wrath?

HoW is a special rule that grants an extra Attack. Since Attacks ignore cover, yes, this Attack ignores cover.

Grav weapon is a special rule, does that mean its not a shooting attack?

Grave Weapon is not a special rule, it's a weapon type. Graviton is a special rule.

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

6th ed snap shot FaQ for reference:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

As noted this is a old FAQ - but it gives us the reason why, and no rules concerned have changed in 7th. [Edit] I lied, Nova has indeed changed to include hitting 'Flyers and FMC's', although not clear if that includes Swooping / Zooming ones as it's not specified, might have something to do with Automatic targeting? or they thought putting it in bold would just be enough /rolleyes

Well if we are using 6th ed FAQs for reference (even if admitting they are not applicable anymore),

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

So, lets see. When firing Overwatch, Template weapons automatically hit. Since Overwatch is a Snap Shot, and Template weapons auto hit, they still [pause inserted for dramatic effect] automatically hit.

The template can not snap shot though, you are in no way making a snap shot with the template , you in fact do not have the ability to do so. So you can hit automatically if you found some permission to snap fire the template? You can not make a snap shot with a template (Snap shot rules, Template rules and WoD rules), and attacks which do not use BS can not be fired as a snap shot (Snap shot rules), covering both the weapon and the WoD special rule - nothing in there can be fired as a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Invisibility is different to hard to hit in the case that the emphasis is put on the firing unit rather than the being able to be targeted by the unit. Assuming were all happy with automatically hit still automatically hits when fired as a snap shot (Which must be pretty rare, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that uses BS and automatically hits - unless this is directly related to just a weapon that auto hits, if you still take BS into consideration). If we had a weapon that could snap fire and auto hits - fine, it has been fired as a Snap shot and has fulfilled the requirement for invisibility (but not necessarily hard to hit).


Best case for WoD is it not being fired but..

if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on

We know the weapon is being fired. Now they can only target the unit if they are firing snap shots......

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Template
weapons cannot fire Snap Shots.

Can't be fired as a snap shot, can never fulfill the requirements of invisibility.

And humanas, that's basically my issue with it, the fact it's bypassing the roll to hit means it's not snap firing, and you can only fire snap shots at the invisible unit. If its not being fired as a snap shot, you can not fire it at the target unit to invoke the rule. Invisibility protects against anything which is not being fired as a snap shot.

If you ask me if they meant for it to be like that, I don't know. The wording around many snap shot items and things like hard to hit could be better. Better structure would be the exclude everything then work on exception, and when I say exception I mean a lot better than the Nova ''exception'' which looks like it means to be, but lacks the necessary wording.

 Nem wrote:

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

The rules for Nova powers specifically state in parentheses that they can hit Flyers and Swooping FMCs. It doesn't also call out Invisibility but since you can only hit Swooping FMCs with Snap Shots then it is implied that you can hit Invisible units too.

Zimko wrote:

 Nem wrote:

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

The rules for Nova powers specifically state in parentheses that they can hit Flyers and Swooping FMCs. It doesn't also call out Invisibility but since you can only hit Swooping FMCs with Snap Shots then it is implied that you can hit Invisible units too.

Yes I added a edit on the end of that post when I checked the Nova rules and indeed they had actually changed this edition, but it doesn't actually say anything about Zooming flyers and Swooping FMC's... just it automatically targets everything including flyers and FMC's. This SHOULD say Swooping / Zooming etc to be clear, but we can just guess what they mean right? Nyahh writers.

This should also target invisible players, I noted in the edit I think it's meant to, anyway.

Zimko wrote:

 Nem wrote:

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

The rules for Nova powers specifically state in parentheses that they can hit Flyers and Swooping FMCs. It doesn't also call out Invisibility but since you can only hit Swooping FMCs with Snap Shots then it is implied that you can hit Invisible units too.

Nova powers are Witchfires, which can be fired as Snap Shots. So, it's not really an issue with them.

And in response to other posts, WoD does target and is a shooting attack:

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack...and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."

A target is declared as part of a normal shooting attack by the unit.

Oberron wrote:
Read through most of the stuff and super skimmed the last 4 or 5 post but the "Instead" part on the firing template on overwatch. Maybe the instead isn't talking about instead of firing snapshots but is tell you that instead of placeing the templace to measure hits? it's nearly 5 in the morning sooooo kinda loopy but someone tell me if this is a possibility?

There is no word "instead", which is why i put it between quotation marks. Sorry for any confusion.


There has indeed been some change between 6th and 7th, and i would really not want to discuss "how it was" in 6th.

 Nem wrote:
Nova has indeed changed[/b] to include hitting 'Flyers and FMC's', although not clear if that includes Swooping / Zooming ones as it's not specified, might have something to do with Automatic targeting? or they thought putting it in bold would just be enough /rolleyes

As i though, in 7th Edition, auto-hitting weapons are almost always auto-hitting, including when they need to make snap shots.

I do believe it is a case of Auto-Hit > Snap Shot, and still think this is the same for Wall of Death.

Think of it this way:

The unit is firing at an enemy during it's Assault Phase (Overwatch).
It has a restriction that it can only Snap Fire. (even though that is ALWAYS the case for Overwatch)
Wall of Death states that template weapons (during Overwatch) roll D3 automatic hits *instead* of Snap shooting like other weapons.

When in Overwatch, all weapons Snap Shoot but Templates Wall of Death instead, how does this change whether your target is a normal unit or an invisible unit?
When a unit is forced to snap shoot (many examples), Template weapons can still Wall of Death in the Overwatch phase. Why would it be any different? They are Snap Shooting already.


I fully agree with it being a shooting attack, an example of an auto-hit shot could be Eldar Mandiblasters, and that the Template weapon never fires a "snap shot".

But when a unit fires Overwatch, it fires Snap shots only. Template weapons can Wall of Death. Why are we saying that having to Snap Shoot when you are Snap Shooting already suddenly changes that?
The only way you would counter that train of logical thought is if you could prove to me that Units firing Overwatch do not Snap Shoot. And apart from a Special Rule doing so, i cannont think of it as a "general ruling"

Auto hitting weapons auto hitted in 6th when snap firing, but they still couldn't target Swooping FMC's or Zooming Flyers. This leads to a grey area (outside invisibility remit) of what exactly do GW think ' Only resolved as snap shots' mean, for example, a none snap shooting attack (Immoteks lightning) can hit Swoopers/ Zoomers this is probably because a roll of 6 to cause an effect is required, they have not conveyed these rules over either edition well.

And again the problem I have is its just ignoring the invis rule. WoD instead of Snap shooting for overwatch - fine the rules say you can do that, but WoD is there specifically for circumventing the overwatch restriction, and does not mention the Invis restriction, which in the end you are still bound by.

Always the case for overwatch, except template weapons which WoD instead of snap firing.

And you say they are still snap shooting! I've provided 3 separate quotes saying templates can not snap fire, and another saying if it's not using BS it can not be snap fired. The argument against is overwatch is snap shots, except templates have a rule that says they can't snap shoot, so they can do this as a overwatch attack.

I am tired now, if you want to debate (with me) as a polite note please start using actual rules, or let me know its how you think it should be played. It's OK saying 'think of it this way' but your example contradicts rules I've already posted while offering none. I am not particular on either side, my armies have no way of gaining Invisibility rule, closest I have is Deathleaper on the odd occasion I decide to use him. yes invisability is powerful, lets not forget WoD is statistically miles ahead of other overwatch attacks.

Much the same with the DL thread -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/601642.page

Still waiting for a rule that states the Snap Shot requirement from Invisibility stacks on top of the Snap Shot requirement from Overwatch.

And automatic hits, hit invisible units automatically, thats basic english for "Automatically hit" such as nova powers.

Therefore there is prescedence that "automatically hitting' bypasses Invisibility.

 Nem wrote:
Auto hitting weapons auto hitted in 6th when snap firing, but they still couldn't target Swooping FMC's or Zooming Flyers. This leads to a grey area (outside invisibility remit) of what exactly do GW think ' Only resolved as snap shots' mean, for example, a none snap shooting attack (Immoteks lightning) can hit Swoopers/ Zoomers this is probably because a roll of 6 to cause an effect is required, they have not conveyed these rules over either edition well.

As you have said with Novas, the trend seems to have changed that way of thinking, but indeed, personal opinion rather than a RaW that says so.

 Nem wrote:
And again the problem I have is its just ignoring the invis rule. WoD instead of Snap shooting for overwatch - fine the rules say you can do that, but WoD is there specifically for circumventing the overwatch restriction, and does not mention the Invis restriction, which in the end you are still bound by.

My answer to that is: Are you no longer in Overwatch then?
Because i fully agree with the "WoD instead of Snap shooting for overwatch - fine the rules say you can do that" statement and that this statement does not change.
In a way, a BS 4 model is restricted to Snap Firing in Overwatch, and restricted to Snap Firing at Invis targets, and restricted to Snap Firing at Swooping MC, etc.
If a Swooping MC, with Invisibility charged a Unit that is Crew Shaken and Jinked last turn, then what is that Units' restriction?
It can only Snap Shoot. If it has a template weapon, the Wall of Death rule inflicts hits, because it is fired in overwatch. ("Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots")

 Nem wrote:
Always the case for overwatch, except template weapons which WoD instead of snap firing.

And you say they are still snap shooting! I've provided 3 separate quotes saying templates can not snap fire, and another saying if it's not using BS it can not be snap fired. The argument against is overwatch is snap shots, except templates have a rule that says they can't snap shoot, so they can do this as a overwatch attack.

As much as i have insisted that WoD is performed during Overwatch, when all weapons are Snap Shooting, I will never agree to saying that the Template weapon is Snap Shooting.
The weapon is never Snap shooting, but it is allowed to inflict D3 Auto-hits when you fire in Overwatch.
Here is the Rule: "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
The Wall of Death rule circumventing this specific Ruleset makes it clear: Invisibility (or Jink, or Swooping, etc) does not add a restriction to overwatch that is not already there.

 Nem wrote:
I am tired now, if you want to debate (with me) as a polite note please start using actual rules, or let me know its how you think it should be played. It's OK saying 'think of it this way' but your example contradicts rules I've already posted while offering none. I am not particular on either side, my armies have no way of gaining Invisibility rule, closest I have is Deathleaper on the odd occasion I decide to use him. yes invisability is powerful, lets not forget WoD is statistically miles ahead of other overwatch attacks.

Much the same with the DL thread -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/601642.page

Had a skim through the old thread and all i can tell is that it will not go anywhere.....
So i will also retreat from the discussion and RaW argument. I've put forward my position based or RaW, and i guess that pretty much sums it up:

Eihnlazer wrote:
If your getting charged, WoD allows a flamer to inflict D3 automatic hits, no matter what is charging or what rules it has, since their is no model that has a special rule stating "This model is unaffected by WoD".

And that it is most definitively not a Snap Shot

not sure things that are flamers in the shooting phase are still firing templates in Overwatch as they are doing d3 hits instead.

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

RAW looks like you can fire template weapons using wall of death as wall of death specifically lets you overwatch despite a resriction of needing snap shots.

of course you couldn't use a template weapon on a non assaulting unit directly, even though in reality that would be the best way to target something invisible but whatever.

The auto hits bypasses the snapshot only anyway. If a blast template scatters onto an invisible unit, any models under the blast are auto-hit. Likewise, even in a regular shooting, if a flamed template targets a unit and the template ends up covering another units invisible models, that unit is still hit. Both examples don't do any kind of snapshot at all yet still score hits on an invisible unit. Wall of death doesn't target the unit directly either since it's assumed that the assaulting unit is moving through the area (see the wound allocation part where a template can wound and assaulting units models even if they are out of template range), so it's auto-hits trump invisibles snapshot requirement.

Part of the problem is that Invisibility says "can only fire Snap Shots..."

You never get to the automatically hit portion of Wall of Death. So the issue of "automatically hit" has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. If WoD allowed you to fire, then I would agree, it would hit an Invisible unit. However, exactly as in a shooting phase, which Overwatch follows the rules for except for the noted exceptions, Template weapons may not Snap Shot and therefore may not auto-hit an Invisible unit. The WoD rules state they are an exception to the "only Snap Shot" for Overwatch. It does not override the requirement that to even use the weapon against an invisible unit, it must make a Snap Shot.

It probably is fruitless to continue on with this thread, though.

You can only fire Snap Shots while overwatching in general though. Why would an Invisible unit, again get double Snap Shot protection?

WoD gives permission to overwatch, and iflicting D3 automatic hits. Automatic hits bypass Invsibility

Angelic wrote:
Part of the problem is that Invisibility says "can only fire Snap Shots..."

You never get to the automatically hit portion of Wall of Death. So the issue of "automatically hit" has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. If WoD allowed you to fire, then I would agree, it would hit an Invisible unit. However, exactly as in a shooting phase, which Overwatch follows the rules for except for the noted exceptions, Template weapons may not Snap Shot and therefore may not auto-hit an Invisible unit. The WoD rules state they are an exception to the "only Snap Shot" for Overwatch. It does not override the requirement that to even use the weapon against an invisible unit, it must make a Snap Shot.

It probably is fruitless to continue on with this thread, though.

Using this same logic the overwatch steps would look like this...

- Declare charge.
- Select weapon group for overwatch.
- Can't select Flamers because they are template weapons and can't Snap Shot.
- WoD never triggers due to above.

Obviously this is incorrect. WoD has to trigger for overwatch with flamers to work. And if WoD triggers then it causes automatic hits... and Invisibility does nothing to stop them.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
You can only fire Snap Shots while overwatching in general though. Why would an Invisible unit, again get double Snap Shot protection?

WoD gives permission to overwatch, and iflicting D3 automatic hits. Automatic hits bypass Invsibility

I have proven you worng on this point in multiple posts. Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. Tell me. what must you do when firing at invisible units?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
You can only fire Snap Shots while overwatching in general though. Why would an Invisible unit, again get double Snap Shot protection?

WoD gives permission to overwatch, and iflicting D3 automatic hits. Automatic hits bypass Invsibility

I have proven you worng on this point in multiple posts. Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. Tell me. what must you do when firing at invisible units?

Wall of Death is not a snap shot. But it does affect Invisible units as it does any other charger.

If a large blast scattered far enough and landed over an invisible unit, would you also argue then that they would take no hits from that either?

 Amiricle wrote:
If a large blast scattered far enough and landed over an invisible unit, would you also argue then that they would take no hits from that either?

You are not shooting at the invisible unit, so no.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not.

Then please quote where it says as much, because the rule clearly says that the Template weapon fire Overwatch and any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

DeathReaper wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.

Overwatch is snapshots by default because the rules for Overwatch tell us that "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." (The assault Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section).

Again I quote:

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

INSTEAD of firing snap shots, flamers inflict D3 hits.
Do I need to define instead?

Jesus dude, this is why I hate playing against people like you. You're right, a flamer cannot fire snap shots. You know why? Because it's not shooting bullets or lasers.

Instead when a unit charges you, you squeeze the trigger and pour out promethium. The charging unit runs into it.

You're still allowed to overwatch with it but instead of snap shots, it's called wall of death. Because it's silly to call a flame a snap shot, which is a ballistic reference.

Why can a model with a gun, be allowed to fire at an invisible target, but all of a sudden the charging target can't be hurt from walking into a wall of super heated flame, that takes little to no effort to generate.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
You can only fire Snap Shots while overwatching in general though. Why would an Invisible unit, again get double Snap Shot protection?

WoD gives permission to overwatch, and iflicting D3 automatic hits. Automatic hits bypass Invsibility

I have proven you worng on this point in multiple posts. Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. Tell me. what must you do when firing at invisible units?

No, you havent, not by any sense of the word. Wall of Death doesnt need to be a snap shot, it has permission to Overwatch per its rule.

I'm still waiting for you to post a rule where Invisibility overrides the rules of Overwatch, or that an invisible unit gets double snap shot protection.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
You can only fire Snap Shots while overwatching in general though. Why would an Invisible unit, again get double Snap Shot protection?

WoD gives permission to overwatch, and iflicting D3 automatic hits. Automatic hits bypass Invsibility

I have proven you worng on this point in multiple posts. Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. Tell me. what must you do when firing at invisible units?

No, you havent, not by any sense of the word. Wall of Death doesnt need to be a snap shot, it has permission to Overwatch per its rule.

I'm still waiting for you to post a rule where Invisibility overrides the rules of Overwatch, or that an invisible unit gets double snap shot protection.

PG 13 BRB, Black box in the bottom right, last paragraph. I have already given the page reference for this above, but I guess i'll have to type it out for you.

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules"

Overwatch a the basic rule, as it applies to all models in the game. Invisibility is an Advanced rule as it only applies to specific models. (This is defined in the two paragraphs above the last one).



Also as I have said above, it is two separate restrictions from two independent rules. They don't need to "stack," they co-exist independently. Stacking would imply that you would need to roll a 6, and then a further 6 to hit with your snap shot. Both restrictions have been granted permission to exist by their respective rules. We don't need permission for two restrictions to exist at the same time when they already have permission individually.

Except Wall of Death is an Advanced rule, Page 13 doesnt apply. Please post a rule where Invisbility overrides Automatic hits from the Wall of Death rule. They are both advanced rules

Overwatch allows flamers to use Wall of Death, wall of death inflicts automatic hits per its rule rolling D3 hits, no hit rolls required, nor is it meeting any of the criteria that Invisbility forbids, the flamer template is not targeting the Invisible unit, the Wall of Death rule is.

Please post rules where Invisbility prevents attacks that hit automatically that arent already outline in its restrictions (Blast markers and flamer templates)

And I believe mods are only allowed to redtext

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
And I believe mods are only allowed to redtext

I do not think that is one of the tenets of Dakka Dakka (I do not remember reading anything like that in the forum rules). I suppose I could be wrong though.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Except Wall of Death is an Advanced rule, Page 13 doesnt apply.

Yes, and Advanced rule that grants you permission to use a basic rule (Overwatch). You were commenting on Overwatch before, not WoD.

Either way you haven't addressed the yellow text. Is it your stance that two restrictions can not exist at the same time? If so, rules quote?

Just saw your edit.
Pg 198 BRB, under Invisibility.
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit..."
Auto hits are not snap shots. If the firing model is unable to fire snap shots, it is restricted from firing at all.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Except Wall of Death is an Advanced rule, Page 13 doesnt apply.

Yes, and Advanced rule that grants you permission to use a basic rule (Overwatch). You were commenting on Overwatch before, not WoD.

Either way you haven't addressed the yellow text. Is it your stance that two restrictions can not exist at the same time? If so, rules quote?

Just saw your edit.
Pg 198 BRB, under Invisibility.
"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit..."
Auto hits are not snap shots.

Auto hits are auto hits, Invisbility does not prevent automatic hits.

WoD isnt making attack rolls its inflicting hits automatically.

A. No shots (snap or otherwise) at all are being made therefore the restriction of Invisibility doesnt apply

Pg 173.
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, eventhought hey cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a template weapon fires Overwatch, It automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value"

No part of the Invisbility power negates the bolded part. Otherwise post a rule in which Invisible units are immune to attacks that dont make rolls to hit, except for noted exceptions (Blast makers/flamers)

Otherwise even blasts scattering onto Invisibile units wouldnt affect them. Which we know isnt true.

WoD isnt restricted from firing at all, its given permission to inflict D3 hits due to Overwatch being declared.

Seems we're on track for the merry go round that was the June thread about this same exact question

You are wrong. When a restriction is set forth, you need a SPECIFIC exception to override it. You would need a rule that specifically states "Wall of death can effect Invisible units." otherwise, the restriction from invisibility holds.
If you are not making any shots, or a shooting attack in general, what rules are you using to resolve the hits and wound from said attack? If it is not a shooting attack, then the hits would be meaningless anyway without a way of resolving.
Blasts can scatter on to an invisible unit and still generate hits because they are not shooting AT the invisible unit, they are shooting at the original target.

WrentheFaceless wrote:

Otherwise even blasts scattering onto Invisibile units wouldnt affect them. Which we know isnt true.

He has stated that he believes this to be true.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
If a large blast scattered far enough and landed over an invisible unit, would you also argue then that they would take no hits from that either?

You are not shooting at the invisible unit, so no.

 Amiricle wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

Otherwise even blasts scattering onto Invisibile units wouldnt affect them. Which we know isnt true.

He has stated that he believes this to be true.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
If a large blast scattered far enough and landed over an invisible unit, would you also argue then that they would take no hits from that either?

You are not shooting at the invisible unit, so no.

I mean no as in, "No I would not argue that."

the unit is hit as i explained above

 extremefreak17 wrote:
You are wrong. When a restriction is set forth, you need a SPECIFIC exception to override it. You would need a rule that specifically states "Wall of death can effect Invisible units." otherwise, the restriction from invisibility holds.
If you are not making any shots, or a shooting attack in general, what rules are you using to resolve the hits and wound from said attack? If it is not a shooting attack, then the hits would be meaningless anyway without a way of resolving.
Blasts can scatter on to an invisible unit and still generate hits because they are not shooting AT the invisible unit, they are shooting at the original target.

1A buddy, and I disagree, and its obvious we're not going to convince each other otherwise

 extremefreak17 wrote:
You are wrong. When a restriction is set forth, you need a SPECIFIC exception to override it. You would need a rule that specifically states "Wall of death can effect Invisible units." otherwise, the restriction from invisibility holds.
If you are not making any shots, or a shooting attack in general, what rules are you using to resolve the hits and wound from said attack? If it is not a shooting attack, then the hits would be meaningless anyway without a way of resolving.
Blasts can scatter on to an invisible unit and still generate hits because they are not shooting AT the invisible unit, they are shooting at the original target.

This could go on, you can use the exact same argument that would bring this nowhere:

You are wrong. When a permission is set forth, you need a SPECIFIC restriction to override it. You would need a rule that specifically states "Invisible unit are not affected by Wall of Death." otherwise, the permission from WoD holds.

Superheavies Stomp Attacks target Invisible units, do you believe the target unit is immune to stomps?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Overwatch a the basic rule, as it applies to all models in the game. Invisibility is an Advanced rule as it only applies to specific models. (This is defined in the two paragraphs above the last one).

Overwatch a the basic rule, as it applies to all models in the game. Invisibility is an Advanced rule as it only applies to specific models. Wall of Death is an Advanced rule as it only applies to specific models, specific weapons and a specific Overwatch phase.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Also as I have said above, it is two separate restrictions from two independent rules. They don't need to "stack," they co-exist independently. Stacking would imply that you would need to roll a 6, and then a further 6 to hit with your snap shot. Both restrictions have been granted permission to exist by their respective rules. We don't need permission for two restrictions to exist at the same time when they already have permission individually.

If a Swooping MC, with Invisibility charged a Unit that is Crew Shaken and Jinked last turn, then what is that Units' restriction?

Would you roll 5 6s to target the unit? Would you need permission 5 times to fire Wall of Death? I could add more to the list, but in the end, i am quite sure that there is a Single restriction on the Unit: They are Snap Shooting.
Wall of Death works even when a unit is Snap Shooting in Overwatch. (per the rule: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots")

Invisibility doesn't need to say anything about WoD. It hands a restriction, its not going to list every since weapon or rule which is subject to it.

The type or method of hitting has no bearing on any of these rules, they don't care if your auto hitting or rolling a dice to see how many hits are generated, only that the hits are generated through snap firing.

WoW I never thought that I would cause so much controversy with that question!

I Have to agree with the WoD being used against invisible unit because balance and common sense. The wording is such that one could argue both with equal measure and I pity the tournament judge that has to figure it out. Also I don't think that the invisibility power was meant to be that powerful but the poor wording of it makes it so.

I think the real question here is, can a unit that is restricted to snap shots fire WoD ?

Hmm, I don't know, WoD is a very powerful attack considering what most units would be able to do in overwatch probably around 500% more effective than twice the number of bolters. Considering the potential difficulty in applying Invis to the correct unit in most armies IDK.

IMO Invisibility gives balance to assault armies =/

WoD is a powerful defence mechanism true and that's the main reason I like flamers.

Invisibility would give balance to assault armies if it didn't also protect the unit in assault, needed 6es to hit in assault is too much.

 Nem wrote:
Invisibility doesn't need to say anything about WoD. It hands a restriction, its not going to list every since weapon or rule which is subject to it.

The type or method of hitting has no bearing on any of these rules, they don't care if your auto hitting or rolling a dice to see how many hits are generated, only that the hits are generated through snap firing.

Unfortunately i can use the same reasoning against, not trying to be snarky but i think the whole thread will always be a loop-around:

WoD doesn't need to say anything about Invisibility. It hands a permission, its not going to list every since weapon or rule which is subject to it.

The type or method of hitting has no bearing on any of these rules, they don't care if your auto hitting or rolling a dice to see how many hits are generated, only that the hits are generated through snap firing. (agreed)

And if i quote the rule again for you: "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
I do not believe Overwatch is anything else than the whole Unit Snap Shooting. WoD then adds a permission to this state of things (Basic v Advanced) to allow Template weapons to fire. Where does Invisibility deny that permission? (explicitly)

When i fire a Flamer in Overwatch with WoD, i cannot be breaking the "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots" rule, so the WoD rule must supersede Snap Shot restrictions or (similar to the Blast & Re-Roll) are we now putting conditions on the status *Snap Shooting* (IE Invisibility snap shots are better than Jink snap shots or Overwatch Snap shots?)

BlackTalos let me give you an example then.

A Ravager who received a crew shaken result moves at cruising speed.

Crew Shaken- "The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn."

Cruising Speed- "A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots..."

Now ravagers have the Aerial Assault special rule. Here it is from the most current FAQ.

Aerial Assault- "A Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew's full Ballistic Skill."

We have two separate restrictions forcing the ravager to Snap Shoot. (Cruising Speed and Crew Shaken)

By your logic, A Ravager would ignore any crew shaken results as long as it moves at cruising speed. This is not true.

Aerial Assault is only a SPECIFIC EXCEPTION to the normal Cruising Speed rule. It does not override Crew Shaken, as it does not list a specific exception for that restriction.

It works exactly the same way here.

Wall of Death is only a SPECIFIC EXCEPTION to the normal Overwatch rule. It does not override Invisibility, as it does not list a specific exception for that restriction.

Permissive Rules require a specific exception once a restriction is put in place. Otherwise my Ravager which Jinked and received a Crew Shaken Result last turn still gets to Shoot at full BS, so long as it moves 12 inches.

Ok, how about that,
From Overwatch on the Assault Phase chapter. "... Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."

WoD is Overwatch therefore WoD is a Snap shot that hits automatically, ergo invisibility does not protect from it.

 humanas wrote:
Ok, how about that,
From Overwatch on the Assault Phase chapter. "... Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."

WoD is Overwatch therefore WoD is a Snap shot that hits automatically, ergo invisibility does not protect from it.

I have already show you that WoD is not a snap shot. please re-read the Wall of death rule, it clearly states this. Wall of Death is also an advanced rule, which overrides Overwatch (Basic Rule), making you quote irrelevant.

 BlackTalos wrote:

When i fire a Flamer in Overwatch with WoD, i cannot be breaking the "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots" rule, so the WoD rule must supersede Snap Shot restrictions or (similar to the Blast & Re-Roll) are we now putting conditions on the status *Snap Shooting* (IE Invisibility snap shots are better than Jink snap shots or Overwatch Snap shots?)

BT has it right.
1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Wall of Death specifically grants templates the ability to fire overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides WoD, RAW is clear: You can overwatch templates on invisible units and thus per WoD you will do D3 auto hits.

Now the fact that GW took something broken (invisibility) in 6th and made it WORSE in 7th (invisibility +2) is something to rant about.

Wall of death isn't targeting either. They pull the trigger and put up a wall of flame (death) you must charge through. Invis dosent stop wounding just makes them harder to hit.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

When i fire a Flamer in Overwatch with WoD, i cannot be breaking the "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots" rule, so the WoD rule must supersede Snap Shot restrictions or (similar to the Blast & Re-Roll) are we now putting conditions on the status *Snap Shooting* (IE Invisibility snap shots are better than Jink snap shots or Overwatch Snap shots?)

BT has it right.
1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Wall of Death specifically grants templates the ability to fire overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides WoD, RAW is clear: You can overwatch templates on invisible units and thus per WoD you will do D3 auto hits.

Now the fact that GW took something broken (invisibility) in 6th and made it WORSE in 7th (invisibility +2) is something to rant about.

So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

As above, you need a SPECIFIC statement to override restrictions, or else many of the game's rules fall apart. Not one person in this thread has been able to address this example.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

First Section, Page 13, Advanced vs Basic rules. Aerial Assault advanced codex rule over rides basic rulebook of vehicle damage tables.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

As above, you need a SPECIFIC statement to override restrictions, or else many of the game's rules fall apart. Not one person in this thread has been able to address this example.

Second part
Do we? Page/Para that Invisbility Advanced rule overrides the Advanced Aerial Assault rule of Ravagers to move and fire at full BS. Codex rule vs rule book.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Ok, how about that,
From Overwatch on the Assault Phase chapter. "... Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."

WoD is Overwatch therefore WoD is a Snap shot that hits automatically, ergo invisibility does not protect from it.

I have already show you that WoD is not a snap shot. please re-read the Wall of death rule, it clearly states this. Wall of Death is also an advanced rule, which overrides Overwatch (Basic Rule), making you quote irrelevant.

WoD is also a special rule. Invisibility has no effect on special rules, only shooting and close combat attacks. While WoD is "fired" it is not a shooting attack, as shown by lack of range and models hit by template attacks.

Wod says templates can't fire snapshots, instead they can do xyz for overwatch.

Since WoD addresses overwatch 'snap shovoting' rule specifically (notice how one says snap shots only in overwatch, and the other says since you can't snap fire a template you can make this attack instead) the overwatch rule is trumped.

If anyone doesn't understand restrictions and permissions interaction in 40k there's a good post by Yakface, can't link as I'm on mobile but it's probably in the sticky area. For example codex vs rulebook isn't exactly true, it is only true where they specifically conflict. Rules that allow you to shoot after moving at full BS do exactly that, this does not allow you to override a external snap shot restriction, because it's not what the rule says, the rule addresses a singular restriction, the one you get on snapshots after moving.

As for multiple restrictions and sperfic permissions then there is a multitude of examples in the rules and the concept is important - or to be frank the rules breakdown ( or your going to have a very bad time at rule strait tournaments).

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

First Section, Page 13, Advanced vs Basic rules. Aerial Assault advanced codex rule over rides basic rulebook of vehicle damage tables.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

As above, you need a SPECIFIC statement to override restrictions, or else many of the game's rules fall apart. Not one person in this thread has been able to address this example.

Second part
Do we? Page/Para that Invisbility Advanced rule overrides the Advanced Aerial Assault rule of Ravagers to move and fire at full BS. Codex rule vs rule book.

You cant be serious...no.....just no. Ravagers NEVER have to snap shoot? Awesome, I will Jink every turn while hitting fliers on a 3+!!

Do you see how hard your logic fails?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

First Section, Page 13, Advanced vs Basic rules. Aerial Assault advanced codex rule over rides basic rulebook of vehicle damage tables.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

As above, you need a SPECIFIC statement to override restrictions, or else many of the game's rules fall apart. Not one person in this thread has been able to address this example.

Second part
Do we? Page/Para that Invisbility Advanced rule overrides the Advanced Aerial Assault rule of Ravagers to move and fire at full BS. Codex rule vs rule book.

You cant be serious...no.....just no. Ravagers NEVER have to snap shoot? Awesome, I will Jink every turn while hitting fliers on a 3+!!

Do you see how hard your logic fails?

I never claimed I was being logical, I'm arguing RAW.

Though continued comments will force me to report you for breaking 1A of the tenants.

 Nem wrote:

If anyone doesn't understand restrictions and permissions interaction in 40k there's a good post by Yakface, can't link as I'm on mobile but it's probably in the sticky area. For example codex vs rulebook isn't exactly true, it is only true where they specifically conflict. Rules that allow you to shoot after moving at full BS do exactly that, this does not allow you to override a external snap shot restriction, because it's not what the rule says, the rule addresses a singular restriction, the one you get on snapshots after moving.

As for multiple restrictions and sperfic permissions then there is a multitude of examples in the rules and the concept is important - or to be frank the rules breakdown ( or your going to have a very bad time at rule strait tournaments).

Yes was an interesting post.

I never claimed I was being logical, I'm arguing RAW.

Do I need to further explain how permissions and restrictions interact in a permissive rule set? It seems you are failing to grasp the basics of that. (serious question, not intended to be an insult)

Though continued comments will force me to report you for breaking 1A of the tenants.

I'm sorry you feel this way, though what you just wrote is, in itself, a threat. Still if you feel the need, report away!

 extremefreak17 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

When i fire a Flamer in Overwatch with WoD, i cannot be breaking the "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots" rule, so the WoD rule must supersede Snap Shot restrictions or (similar to the Blast & Re-Roll) are we now putting conditions on the status *Snap Shooting* (IE Invisibility snap shots are better than Jink snap shots or Overwatch Snap shots?)

BT has it right.
1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Wall of Death specifically grants templates the ability to fire overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides WoD, RAW is clear: You can overwatch templates on invisible units and thus per WoD you will do D3 auto hits.

Now the fact that GW took something broken (invisibility) in 6th and made it WORSE in 7th (invisibility +2) is something to rant about.

So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

As above, you need a SPECIFIC statement to override restrictions, or else many of the game's rules fall apart. Not one person in this thread has been able to address this example.

I understand the issue with that example and i do agree, Aerial Assault can only cover the restriction in place by cruising speed and not Crew Shaken or Invisibility.
This would conclude that WoD can only cover the fact that those weapons could not fire Overwatch in the first place, and not Invisibility or Crew Shaken.

However i am still unconvinced that they cannot apply the Hits?
Let's put it this way:

Aerial Assault
A ravager affected by Crew Shaken at cruising speed has a restriction <Snap Shooting> that comes from multiple sources.
After you've followed Aerial Assault USR, what have you got? A Vehicle that can fire at full BS that is Crew Shaken, and so snap shooting only.
You have applied:
- Cruising Speed Aerial Assault
- Crew Shaken
So you are snap firing.

Wall of Death
A unit shooting at an Invisible enemy Overwatches, you have two restrictions here: <Cannot fire> and <Snap Shooting>
So whichever order you apply them in, you have applied invisibility so only snap shots, and D3 Auto-Hits (because that's what the Wall of Death USR is)
You have applied:
- Overwatch (cannot fire) Wall of Death (->D3 Auto-hits)
- Invisibility
So you are snap firing and auto-hitting.

We know from novas and other sources that auto-hits circumvent Snap firing.

Rules:


From these 2 rules (applied here) you are left with this:
- automatically inflicts D3 hits.
- can only fire Snap Shots.

You insist both cannot co-exist, but i still do not see why they cannot?

Fragile wrote:
While WoD is "fired" it is not a shooting attack, as shown by lack of range and models hit by template attacks.

Incorrect statement. Overwatch is stated to be a shooting attack. If it is firing Overwatch it is making a shooting attack. WoD specifically states it overrides the "range and models hit by template attacks" requirement of a normal shooting attack on Overwatch.

 BlackTalos wrote:


We know from novas and other sources that auto-hits circumvent Snap firing.

That is not accurate. Novas can be used to make Snap Shots because they are a type of Witchfire. Snap Shots making the model BS 1 when firing is irrelevant since the Nova auto-hits though. Novas are not analogous to WoD.

Nova: Can make Snap Shots, auto-hit.
WoD: Can't make Snap Shots, auto hit.

The first part is the crux of this discussion, so Novas aren't really relevant.

Angelic wrote:

Fragile wrote:
While WoD is "fired" it is not a shooting attack, as shown by lack of range and models hit by template attacks.

Incorrect statement. Overwatch is stated to be a shooting attack. If it is firing Overwatch it is making a shooting attack. WoD specifically states it overrides the "range and models hit by template attacks" requirement of a normal shooting attack on Overwatch.

 BlackTalos wrote:


We know from novas and other sources that auto-hits circumvent Snap firing.

That is not accurate. Novas can be used to make Snap Shots because they are a type of Witchfire. Snap Shots making the model BS 1 when firing is irrelevant since the Nova auto-hits though. Novas are not analogous to WoD.

Nova: Can make Snap Shots, auto-hit.
WoD: Can't make Snap Shots, auto hit.

The first part is the crux of this discussion, so Novas aren't really relevant.

Can you Snap Shot SH Stomp attacks?

Can you Snap Shot Mandiblasters?

 BlackTalos wrote:


Can you Snap Shot SH Stomp attacks?

Can you Snap Shot Mandiblasters?

Neither of these are shooting attacks. These two attacks fall into a rules black hole. They can most reasonably be described as close combat attacks that auto-hit since they can only be performed while locked in CC. Mandiblasters and Stomps also go off at a defined Initiative step. Shooting attacks are strictly prohibited from being performed while locked in CC so we know they are not that type of attack. These are also not really relevant.

Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

The reason these work against invisible units is because none of these are shooting "at" the invisible unit. Death rays shoot from point to point on the board, Scattered blast are shooting at their original target. Invisibility only puts the snap shot restriction on any unit shooting directly at the invisible unit. WoD is most certainly shooting at the unit. The D3 Auto hits do not work, because the weapon does not have permission to fire in the first place, as it can never snap shoot.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

The reason these work against invisible units is because none of these are shooting "at" the invisible unit. Death rays shoot from point to point on the board, Scattered blast are shooting at their original target. Invisibility only puts the snap shot restriction on any unit shooting directly at the invisible unit. WoD is most certainly shooting at the unit. The D3 Auto hits do not work, because the weapon does not have permission to fire in the first place, as it can never snap shoot.

So now your claiming Templates cannot fire Overwatch, since those are snap shots too?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

The reason these work against invisible units is because none of these are shooting "at" the invisible unit. Death rays shoot from point to point on the board, Scattered blast are shooting at their original target. Invisibility only puts the snap shot restriction on any unit shooting directly at the invisible unit. WoD is most certainly shooting at the unit. The D3 Auto hits do not work, because the weapon does not have permission to fire in the first place, as it can never snap shoot.

I do not even need my own words:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Again Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. If you think it is, provide a qoute that supports it.

It's not a Snap shot, it's D3 Hits.

Another example: An invisible unit is in a building with Total Collapse. Total Collapse is 4D6 S6 Hits, and has no BS, is the unit immune because the building can only snap shoot at the target unit?

Does invisibility protects against the No Escape rule for Templates?
Does it protect from Reaver Bladevanes?
From a Mawlocs terror from the Deep ?

According to what you said none of these would hit because they are not snap shots.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

The reason these work against invisible units is because none of these are shooting "at" the invisible unit. Death rays shoot from point to point on the board, Scattered blast are shooting at their original target. Invisibility only puts the snap shot restriction on any unit shooting directly at the invisible unit. WoD is most certainly shooting at the unit. The D3 Auto hits do not work, because the weapon does not have permission to fire in the first place, as it can never snap shoot.

I do not even need my own words:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Again Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. If you think it is, provide a qoute that supports it.

It's not a Snap shot, it's D3 Hits.

Another example: An invisible unit is in a building with Total Collapse. Total Collapse is 4D6 S6 Hits, and has no BS, is the unit immune because the building can only snap shoot at the target unit?

Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 humanas wrote:
Does invisibility protects against the No Escape rule for Templates?
Does it protect from Reaver Bladevanes?
From a Mawlocs terror from the Deep ?

According to what you said none of these would hit because they are not snap shots.

1. You can't be cast invisibility inside a transport, irrelevant.
2. It does not, they are neither a shooting or CC attack.
3. It does not. it is neither a shooting or CC attack.

WoD does not work because we know that is IS a shooting attack, and that it is NOT a snap shot.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, then we can use the example of Necron Death Rays and Scattered Blasts. They both targeted another unit, and drew over/ scattered over the invisible unit.

The reason these work against invisible units is because none of these are shooting "at" the invisible unit. Death rays shoot from point to point on the board, Scattered blast are shooting at their original target. Invisibility only puts the snap shot restriction on any unit shooting directly at the invisible unit. WoD is most certainly shooting at the unit. The D3 Auto hits do not work, because the weapon does not have permission to fire in the first place, as it can never snap shoot.

So now your claiming Templates cannot fire Overwatch, since those are snap shots too?

No, WoD allows you to bypass that specific restriction from Overwatch.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

WOD -

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Flamers can not snap shot, that much is clear, the rules for template say so in the first place, but a flamer can fire Overwatch Per the wall of death rules.

Wall of Death is a special rule that allows D3 automatic hits on the charging target, using the weapon''s strength and ap. Wall of Death is not a shooting attack, it is a special rule that activates through the qualifyer of being able to Overwatch.

Invisbility states that it can only be targeted with shooting attacks making snap shots. WoD is not a shooting attack, its special rule that generates D3 automatic hits, therefore Invsibility does not have any bearing, as you're not making a 'shooting attack' you're resolving overwatch using the Special Rule Wall of Death, which is not the template weapon actually firing.

Its akin to the No Escape rule, in which damage is done by the special rule, not the actual weapon, no flamer template is use, which is the normal shooting attack rules for templates.

Wall of Death, the rule is generating the hits, Wall of Death is a special rule thats activated by a qualifyer and is not a shooting attack, no hit rolls are made, no templates are placed.

I regret saying to humanas last time we played that ink not sure for his WoD flamed overwatching my invisible seekers... :-) if I didn't ask there wouldn't be such a huge conflict of opinions... Apart from the fun though, it is a big empty spot that is left unsolved.

Next question: can WoD be used by a unit that is falling back?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

WOD -

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Flamers can not snap shot, that much is clear, the rules for template say so in the first place, but a flamer can fire Overwatch Per the wall of death rules.

Wall of Death is a special rule that allows D3 automatic hits on the charging target, using the weapon''s strength and ap. Wall of Death is not a shooting attack, it is a special rule that activates through the qualifyer of being able to Overwatch.

Invisbility states that it can only be targeted with shooting attacks making snap shots. WoD is not a shooting attack, its special rule that generates D3 automatic hits, therefore Invsibility does not have any bearing, as you're not making a 'shooting attack' you're resolving overwatch using the Special Rule Wall of Death, which is not the template weapon actually firing.

Its akin to the No Escape rule, in which damage is done by the special rule, not the actual weapon, no flamer template is use, which is the normal shooting attack rules for templates.

Wall of Death, the rule is generating the hits, Wall of Death is a special rule thats activated by a qualifyer and is not a shooting attack, no hit rolls are made, no templates are placed.

WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Auto hits, auto hit, hence why they're called auto hits, there are no "to hit" rolls being made

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

So you're saying that you need to roll to hit with WoD as a 'normal shooting attack" even though it states it deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit. If you're arguing that, then flamers are NEVER allowed to Wall of Death, as they cant be 'shot normally' durring any type of Overwatch.

Flamer is Overwatching
Flamer is using rule Wall of Death to overwatch which doesnt target and make attack rolls, but INSTEAD deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit per the rules of Wall of Death
D3 auto hits, auto hit, no "normal shooting attack" is being made, snap shots dont come into effect, a Wall of Death rule is being invoked
Flamer can use Wall of Death

 WingWong wrote:
Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

Very convincing argument you have there, perhaps you could have saved us all trouble posting this earlier

Glad to be of help

:tips hat:

Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Auto hits, auto hit, hence why they're called auto hits, there are no "to hit" rolls being made

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

So you're saying that you need to roll to hit with WoD as a 'normal shooting attack" even though it states it deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit. If you're arguing that, then flamers are NEVER allowed to Wall of Death, as they cant be 'shot normally' durring any type of Overwatch.

Flamer is Overwatching
Flamer is using rule Wall of Death to overwatch which doesnt target and make attack rolls, but INSTEAD deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit per the rules of Wall of Death
D3 auto hits, auto hit, no "normal shooting attack" is being made, snap shots dont come into effect, a Wall of Death rule is being invoked
Flamer can use Wall of Death

 WingWong wrote:
Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

Very convincing argument you have there, perhaps you could have saved us all trouble posting this earlier

No I never said you roll to hit. There are plenty of "normal shooting attacks" that don't roll to hit. Flamers, Blasts, etc.

It is very simple. Is Wall of Death a shooting attack? Yes, as it is Overwatch and follows the normal rules for shooting, with one exception which is clearly listed in the WoD rule. (D3 Auto hits)

Is this shooting attack directed at an invisible unit? Yes, Overwatch always targets the charhing unit.

Is this WoD shooting attack a snap shot? No, WoD clearly says it is not.

Since it is not a snapshot, the flamer does not have permission to fire on the invisible unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

This is Wrong. I have already given you the relevant quotes.

Yes WoD is a special rule that generates D3 hits. However, as detailed in the rule, WoD is how flamers FIRE Overwatch. Per the rule, If you are using WoD, you are firing overwatch. Overwatch, is resolved as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks need to snap shoot to hit invisible units.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

This is Wrong. I have already given you the relevant quotes.

Yes WoD is a special rule that generates D3 hits. However, as detailed in the rule, WoD is how flamers FIRE Overwatch. Per the rule, If you are using WoD, you are firing overwatch. Overwatch, is resolved as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks need to snap shoot to hit invisible units.

Overwatch is how wall of death gets activated. To FIRE Overwatch you have to make snapshots. A flamer cannot make snapshots so cannot resolve that shooting attack and cannot resolve overwatch normally.. You activate a flamers wall of death rule when you declare an assault against it receiving d3 hits. There is no firing, no snapshooting, no shooting attack, you are just hit.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


No I never said you roll to hit. There are plenty of "normal shooting attacks" that don't roll to hit. Flamers, Blasts, etc.

It is very simple. Is Wall of Death a shooting attack? Yes, as it is Overwatch and follows the normal rules for shooting, with one exception which is clearly listed in the WoD rule. (D3 Auto hits)

Is this shooting attack directed at an invisible unit? Yes, Overwatch always targets the charhing unit.

Is this WoD shooting attack a snap shot? No, WoD clearly says it is not.

Since it is not a snapshot, the flamer does not have permission to fire on the invisible unit.

Those "Normal shooting attacks" that dont roll to hit you mentioned (Flamers, blasts) can not be fired as snap shots, thus a flamer can not Overwatch using a "normal shooting attack"

Its given the Wall of Death rule to allow it to Overwatch. Therefore Wall of death is not a "normal shooting attack", no template is placed, no attack rolls are made

Therefor since its not a "normal shooting attack" as Overwatch would normally specify, its using the Wall of Death rule to generate hits.

Hits are being generated from Wall of Death, which is given permission from the act of Overwatching, not the Overwatch "Normal attack" process.

Therefore Wall of Death is usable on Invisbile targets, as the restrictions of "shooting attacks required to make Snap Shots" is not met, as Wall of Death is a special rule generating hits, not a shooting attack.

Again the Flamer "Normal Shooting rules" are not being used, no template is being placed, no attack rolls are made.

So many things wrong with this.

WoD is a normal shooting attack. The rules are clear on this.
WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from any weapon is a normal shooting attack.
These two statements are clearly stated in the rules. You might Disagree, but these are actually written in the book, as i have quoted many times above.

Its given the Wall of Death rule to allow it to Overwatch. Therefore Wall of death is not a "normal shooting attack", no template is placed, no attack rolls are made

This is not written anywhere in the book.

To sum it up again. WoD is a normal shooting attack (Overwatch) with a single change to the "hit" mechanic.
Just like firing a blast weapon.
Blast weapons are normal shooting attacks with a single change to the "hit" mechanic.

WoD is given specific permission to fire Overwatch, which is listed as a normal shooting attack. However, neither blasts, or WoD are given permission to snap shoot, and thus can not hit invisible units.

You can go on and on about how you think WoD is not a shooting attack, but the fact is you have zero rules support for this assertion. The rules are pretty clear here, and the quotes that I have given show just that.

Wall of death is a special rule, specifically called out as that under "Template Weapons" page 173.

Quote from page 173 "Don't worry about comparing the lenght of the template, with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn't matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into the range of the template and were driven back"
How is that anything like a normal shooting attack? A normal shooting attack would use the template to see how many are hit, and if you would only be able to wound the models in range.

Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack, yes, and no one is argueing that. It is also listed as a snapshot. Wall of death is not a normal overwatch as you have posted many times to deny its resolution as a snapshot. It is activated on overwatch, but does not follow normal overwatch protocol.

You are not even firing the hits are just automatic. So WoD should hit invisible. Invisible or not play with fire and get burned

Flame template weapons cause d3 wounds in an overwatch scenario. I would think this same rule would apply for invisibility.

 Amiricle wrote:
Wall of death is a special rule, specifically called out as that under "Template Weapons" page 173.

Quote from page 173 "Don't worry about comparing the lenght of the template, with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn't matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into the range of the template and were driven back"
How is that anything like a normal shooting attack? A normal shooting attack would use the template to see how many are hit, and if you would only be able to wound the models in range.

Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack, yes, and no one is argueing that. It is also listed as a snapshot. Wall of death is not a normal overwatch as you have posted many times to deny its resolution as a snapshot. It is activated on overwatch, but does not follow normal overwatch protocol.

The template has literally nothing to do with this debate.

Overwatch is NOT listed as a snap shot. You make snap shots in Overwatch. BIG difference.

It does not matter if WoD is a "normal overwatatch" (which is not actually defined in the rules). The rules don't care if you are firing a pink Overwatch, a blue Overwatch, a half Overwatch, or a full Overwatch. Whatever type of Overwatch you want to personally list WoD as is irrelevant. No matter what type it is, it is still overwatch, and follows the rules for a normal shooting attack. (which would include the way a normal shooting attack interacts with Invisibility, or any other rule in the game for that matter.) The only differences between a "standard" Overwatch and WoD are the things SPECIFICALLY listed in the rule. (As the interaction with Invisibility is not listed we must treat that interaction as a normal shooting attack per the rules for Overwatch.)

You should be happy with d3 auto hits since you could argue flamers ignore cover which should include invisibility.

Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Wall of Death wrote: Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch...

The WoD rule seems to disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What rules are you using to allocate wounds from the wound pool to the enemy models?

Gravmyr wrote:

Wall of Death wrote: Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch...

The WoD rule seems to disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What rules are you using to allocate wounds from the wound pool to the enemy models?

The same rules that govern any number of special rules that deal damage. Many of those are listed above.

Invis requires shots to be resolved as Snapshots - no Blast, no Templates,....

Overwatch requires shots be resolved as Snapshots - no Blasts, no Templates, except....

WoD allows Template weapons to automatically inflict d3 in the situation of Overwatch vs a charging unit. The snapshot-only constraint conferred by Overwatch AND Invis is trumped by this specific exception. For Invis units to be immune to WoD, Invis would need to override the WoD rule, which it doesn't.

My 2c...

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

And again, 'wall of death' is not a normal shooting attack.It does not "use all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on. " (which is the rest of that sentence you quoted) so that argument is null.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

The Wall of Death rule is the exception, per the rules of Wall of Death and the key word "Instead" within the rule of Wall of Death itself. The Rule Overwatch does care, as it forbids weapons from OVerwatch that can not snap shot, but the Wall of Death rule overrides this Per page 13, basic vs advanced and the wall of death rule itself

Page/para that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack and not a specific permission to preform an overwatch attack using the Wall of Death rules or conceded, as Nos would say

No rules you have provided exempt Wall of Death from affecting Invsibe units, you have failed to prove that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack. Wall of Death is not a normal shooting attack, as it can not be resolved per the basic Overwatch rules, it has to be resolved per its own rules.

 Amiricle wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

And again, 'wall of death' is not a normal shooting attack.It does not "use all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on. " (which is the rest of that sentence you quoted) so that argument is null.

Except the rules don't say this at all. Overwatch is a shooting attack. There is nothing in Wall of death that says it is not a shooting attack. Wall of death is Overwatch. the rules are clear on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Wall of Death rule is the exception, per the rules of Wall of Death and the key word "Instead" within the rule of Wall of Death itself. The Rule Overwatch does care, as it forbids weapons from OVerwatch that can not snap shot, but the Wall of Death rule overrides this Per page 13, basic vs advanced and the wall of death rule itself

Page/para that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack and not a specific permission to preform an overwatch attack using the Wall of Death rules or conceded, as Nos would say

No rules you have provided exempt Wall of Death from affecting Invsibe units, you have failed to prove that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack. Wall of Death is not a normal shooting attack, as it can not be resolved per the basic Overwatch rules, it has to be resolved per its own rules.

Instead is refering to, instead of shooting snap shots. Instead of snap shots, not instead of a normal shooting attack. pretty clear what the subject matter of that quote is.

Basic vs Advanced only applies when there is a direct conflict. Overwatch is is a shooting attack. Wall of death is Overwatch. Wall of death says nothing of normal/abnormal/non-shooting attacks.

WoD would need a specific mention of attack type to conflict with Overwatch in that regard.

It is you that are failing, that is failing to understand basic rule interactions in a permissive set.

WoD is Overwatch, and thus a shooting attack. Unless WoD SPECIFICALLY says otherwise, which it doesn't. D3 auto hits does not mean "not a shooting attack." there is no rules support for that.

Sorry if i wind back your train of thought.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

I would explain this differently.
The Template weapon is not fired. It is intended to fire, which "instead" gives the enemy D3 Auto-Hits.
If the Template was fired, as posted by many, you'd have to place the template, measure ranges, Snap shoot (per Overwatch). All of which we know are impossible.

So when you run through the sequence and "fire the weapon", you suddenly ignore that (no Rolls To Hit, no range measuring) and "instead" inflict D3 Hits.
Can invisibility block/deny D3 auto-hits? I don't think so...

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

I disagree with it not being shooting only on the basis of Ignoring Cover saves.

Same for Reaver Bladevanes or a Mawlocs terror from the Deep.

I will not push this further than "Auto-Hits ignore Snap Shots" because Shooting and CC being the only to exist is an unending Philosophical Debate (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/586270.page#6669764)


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 extremefreak17 wrote:

Instead is refering to, instead of shooting snap shots. Instead of snap shots, not instead of a normal shooting attack. pretty clear what the subject matter of that quote is.

We agree, instead of Snap Shots, so why would invisibility (Snap Shots) do anything to the rule?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
D3 auto hits does not mean "not a shooting attack." there is no rules support for that.

You claimed earlier that Terror from the Deep Bladevanes and Collapse are not Shooting or CC, why can Wall of Death not exist like that?

''if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3''

''enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the ta''


Its defiantly not a 'normal shooting attack', but it is indeed a shooting attack, you are firing a ranged weapon, that is very much a shooting attack.


Another way to look at it, if a Infantry Model has a flamer and a bolter can you fire the bolter and WoD during overwatch?

 Nem wrote:
''if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3''

''enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target''


Its defiantly not a 'normal shooting attack', but it is indeed a shooting attack, you are firing a ranged weapon, that is very much a shooting attack.

I believe that by RaW, only Shooting attacks and CC attacks exist, so i agree with you fully. (Link to the Debate as to why, above)
But how would you define "Overwatch"? In the " fires Overwatch" quoted above?

I would personally only go by RaW: "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
Cannot Snap Shot = Cannot Fire Overwatch
Fire Overwatch = Fire Snap Shot
Fire Template in Overwatch = D3 Automatic Hits (you could extend = Fire Snap Shot, but we know "lost the quote" Template weapons cannot Snap Shoot)
In a way i am saying that
D3 Automatic Hits must = Snap Shots, ie those hits must be "a form of Snap shot" or you would break Overwatch Rules and Wall of Death Rules ("Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots"

 Nem wrote:
Another way to look at it, if a Infantry Model has a flamer and a bolter can you fire the bolter and WoD during overwatch?

Not sure i understand the angle here, all i see is: We are in overwatch,
Model chooses Bolter, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- (auto)picks target
- Checks range
- Rolls To Hit (Snap Fire)
- Rolls To Wound
Model chooses Flamer, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- does not pick target . . . . . . . . . . . \
- does not check range . . . .. . . . . . | Wall of Death - D3 auto-hits onto charging unit.
- does not roll To Hit (Snap Fire) . /
- Rolls to Wound

If the question is firing both, you can only fire 1 weapon, so pick 1 of the 2 lists above

Fragile wrote:
The same rules that govern any number of special rules that deal damage. Many of those are listed above.

Which require the special rule to inform you what rules to use. Please quote a line in the special rule that tells you which rules to use.

Actually, thanks Nem for making me realise another point against:

"The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS)."
"When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses."
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

"it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit"

by RaW, "automatically inflicts" would be impossible if it followed the rules of the To Hit phase. Therefore the 3 Lines of Rules quoted above cannot apply when you are using Wall of Death.

And it finally makes sense to me why Auto-Hits override Snap Shots! Lol Grandiose Revelation!

say there was a piece of wargear that allowed a unit to use its full balistic skill during overwatch - what would it hit an invisible unit charging in on?

Presumably the debate is similar - are these "snapshots at a different balistic skill" (therefore using full balistic skill to hit the invisible unit) or are these now normal shots, so you need to snap fire aginst the invisible enemy.

Given the arguements I can see that the WoD attaks are valid for overwatch, but they are not snapfire shots, so cannot target the invisible creatures.

 BlackTalos wrote:
We know from novas and other sources that auto-hits circumvent Snap firing.

This is for when we have permission to perform an action that would lead to to-hit rolls, which. in their turn, should be skipped when we auto-hit, as you've said. The problem with this kind of examples is that when it comes to WoD we may or may not have permission to use weapon at all. Whether this is proven wrong or not, auto-hits are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If we can use flamers, we use them as WoD and we all know how WoD plays out. If we cannot, then we never even get to the part when we can try to hit anything and therefore make an appeal to the fact that we are auto-hitting.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

My problem with these examples is that they are all about actually shooting, even though we apply (or don't) special rules to override certain general rules that would otherwise change the way we resolve shooting attack. But other than that, it's just undoubtedly a shooting attack, we just make sure we account every relevant rule to make sure we resolve it correctly.
WoD is a bit different. Templates never fire snap shots, and I believe that WoD wording doesn't give us right to say it is equivalent of snap shots for templates. We only know that WoD is used in overwatch. As far as I can remember, overwatch is never stated to equal snap shots, it merely says that shots made during it are resolved as snap shots (for weapons that can fire snap shots).
WoD here is tied to overwatch, but claiming that it has something to do with snap shots seems wrong to me.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

If what I believe is correct (or at least not wrong in a direct manner), I think I can argue the following:

- templates never shoot as snap shots;
- they have no special permission to use snap shots during overwatch either and they don't;
- they have permission to perform actions described in WoD rule though.

Now this is the part that makes us return back to first pages of this discussion as there are different options I see here:

1) Templates cannot shoot normally in overwatch due to inability to perform the only way to resolve normal shooting procedures during overwatch which is as snap shots. However, they have specific permission to perform shooting attack (WoD) which overrides general rules of overwatch (namely, that everything fires as snap shots provided it can do so). WoD rule states that said attack must be resolved as delivering 1d3 automatic hits (instead of being resolved using actual template), but otherwise behaves normally.
However, Invisibility bars you from targeting shooting attacks at units affected by this power unless they are snap shots (please let me know if you see subtle difference between what I've just said and what is implied by wording of Invisibility). WoD is not resolved as snap shots, so Invisibility objects to it.

My take is that WoD shooting attack have specific permission to be fired disregarding normal rules of the overwatch that only snap shots can be fired. It doesn't allow you to disregard other reasons that oblige you to fire snap shots or not fire at all, including invisibility.
I see you have an argument here that WoD rule doesn't tell you to disregard restrictions of Overwatch specifically, but instead just giving you permission to perform a shooting attack, in a way WoD rule describes, if unit in general is eligible to make use of overwatch regardless of anything else (this is a stretch IMO, but let's roll with it). You are allowed to do this attack by BRB, yet Invisibility restricts you from performing it (because it's not snap shot) by BRB rules as well. AFAIK, the consensus is that restriction takes precedence over allowance.

Conclusion: you don't use WoD against invisible assaulting units.

2) Same as above, except WoD rule provide a specific permission to inflict automatic hits with S and AP of weapon overwatching model wields which are then resolved as if they were made by shooting. Being neiter shooting attack nor close combat attack, it does not interact with Invisibility in any way.

Conclusion: you can WoD assaulting unit regardless of Invisibility power.

Warning, HYWPI below with no RAW backup.
We need to do a research before coming to a conclusion whether WoD is supposed to be a shooting attack, perhaps. My suggestion is to look up combi-weapon (namely, combi-flamers) rules. Do they count as shooting if used to WoD for the purpose of interacting with One shot rule? Is it specifically stated anywhere that one shot weapon is depleted when it is used as WoD?
I'm pretty sure that most people play it as if answers were yes to first, doesn't matter to second, but since I don't have rules right now, I cannot answer if there's any RAW backing tose decisions.

 RFHolloway wrote:
say there was a piece of wargear that allowed a unit to use its full balistic skill during overwatch - what would it hit an invisible unit charging in on?

Presumably the debate is similar - are these "snapshots at a different balistic skill" (therefore using full balistic skill to hit the invisible unit) or are these now normal shots, so you need to snap fire aginst the invisible enemy.

Given the arguements I can see that the WoD attaks are valid for overwatch, but they are not snapfire shots, so cannot target the invisible creatures.

See snap shot rules, only rules which effect the BS of Snap shots specifically can be used and still described as a snap shot, EI effecting the BS during overwatch means it would not be a 'snap shot' (Unless chosen to be snap fired, which would put it back at BS1).

Can't recall any rules like that, as far as I know one of the only rules which can change the BS of a snap shot (at any time) is one of the Tau Markerlights.

 Nem wrote:

 RFHolloway wrote:
say there was a piece of wargear that allowed a unit to use its full balistic skill during overwatch - what would it hit an invisible unit charging in on?

Presumably the debate is similar - are these "snapshots at a different balistic skill" (therefore using full balistic skill to hit the invisible unit) or are these now normal shots, so you need to snap fire aginst the invisible enemy.

Given the arguements I can see that the WoD attaks are valid for overwatch, but they are not snapfire shots, so cannot target the invisible creatures.

See snap shot rules, only rules which effect the BS of Snap shots specifically can be used and still described as a snap shot, EI effecting the BS during overwatch means it would not be a 'snap shot' (Unless chosen to be snap fired, which would put it back at BS1).

Can't recall any rules like that, as far as I know one of the only rules which can change the BS of a snap shot (at any time) is one of the Tau Markerlights.

I was about to say Tau might have a special Rule allowing Overwatch at higher BS...

 BlackTalos wrote:
Sorry if i wind back your train of thought.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

I would explain this differently.
The Template weapon is not fired. It is intended to fire, which "instead" gives the enemy D3 Auto-Hits.
If the Template was fired, as posted by many, you'd have to place the template, measure ranges, Snap shoot (per Overwatch). All of which we know are impossible.

So when you run through the sequence and "fire the weapon", you suddenly ignore that (no Rolls To Hit, no range measuring) and "instead" inflict D3 Hits.
Can invisibility block/deny D3 auto-hits? I don't think so...

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

I disagree with it not being shooting only on the basis of Ignoring Cover saves.

Same for Reaver Bladevanes or a Mawlocs terror from the Deep.

I will not push this further than "Auto-Hits ignore Snap Shots" because Shooting and CC being the only to exist is an unending Philosophical Debate (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/586270.page#6669764)


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 extremefreak17 wrote:

Instead is refering to, instead of shooting snap shots. Instead of snap shots, not instead of a normal shooting attack. pretty clear what the subject matter of that quote is.

We agree, instead of Snap Shots, so why would invisibility (Snap Shots) do anything to the rule?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
D3 auto hits does not mean "not a shooting attack." there is no rules support for that.

You claimed earlier that Terror from the Deep Bladevanes and Collapse are not Shooting or CC, why can Wall of Death not exist like that?

1. Except you are firing the Flamer. I know people are wanting to say it is not a shooting attack because of the lack of template placement etc. but that doesn't change the fact that is uses the rules for shooting to resolve. (rolling to wound, armour saves, moral checks if 25% casualties). Nothing in the WoD rule details the attack as anything different and the over watch rule clearly tells us it is a shooting attack. It may not seem like a "normal" shooting attack to you, but it is at the very least, some type of shooting attack. As above, Overwatch does not care if you are firing a bolter, or using WoD; if you are firing Overwatch, you are making a shooting attack.

2. The reason WoD can be considered a shooting attack is because it is Overwatch, and Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack. Terror from the Deep, Bladevanes, etc are not shooting attacks because there are no rules which list them as such.

3. Because it is saying INSTEAD of snap shots. Not, "WoD counts as a snap shot. "Invisibility requires us to fire snap shots, and because WoD is doing something else (which is what "instead" means) it can't shoot the unit.

Because it is saying INSTEAD of snap shots. Not, "WoD counts as a snap shot. "Invisibility requires us to fire snap shots, and because WoD is doing something else (which is what "instead" means) it can't shoot the unit.

It doesn't say instead of snap shots, that's your interpretation. I read that "instead of following normal overwatch rules." Witch means, no need to follow normal shooting rules just deal d3 hits and be done with it.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

1. Except you are firing the Flamer. I know people are wanting to say it is not a shooting attack because of the lack of template placement etc. but that doesn't change the fact that is uses the rules for shooting to resolve. (rolling to wound, armour saves, moral checks if 25% casualties). Nothing in the WoD rule details the attack as anything different and the over watch rule clearly tells us it is a shooting attack. It may not seem like a "normal" shooting attack to you, but it is at the very least, some type of shooting attack. As above, Overwatch does not care if you are firing a bolter, or using WoD; if you are firing Overwatch, you are making a shooting attack.

2. The reason WoD can be considered a shooting attack is because it is Overwatch, and Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack. Terror from the Deep, Bladevanes, etc are not shooting attacks because there are no rules which list them as such.

3. Because it is saying INSTEAD of snap shots. Not, "WoD counts as a snap shot. "Invisibility requires us to fire snap shots, and because WoD is doing something else (which is what "instead" means) it can't shoot the unit.

As humanas says, we are not simply replacing Snap Shots with the WoD. We are replacing an entire part of the shooting phase: (Select target+range+To Hit roll) and move on to To Wound Phase.

You have correctly stated this:

(rolling to wound, armour saves, moral checks if 25% casualties)

Your list does not contain a To Hit roll (or phase). How can you snap shot (a change of BS value) if you have no To Hit roll (which needs to be a 6 and cannot be a 1)?

 humanas wrote:

Because it is saying INSTEAD of snap shots. Not, "WoD counts as a snap shot. "Invisibility requires us to fire snap shots, and because WoD is doing something else (which is what "instead" means) it can't shoot the unit.

It doesn't say instead of snap shots, that's your interpretation. I read that "instead of following normal overwatch rules." Witch means, no need to follow normal shooting rules just deal d3 hits and be done with it.

Basic grammar says otherwise:

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Please explain to me how you are concluding that the "Instead" applies to a subject (shooting attack) which does not even exist in the WoD rule? In fact, the bold portion doesnt even make sense if you view it that way.



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 BlackTalos wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

1. Except you are firing the Flamer. I know people are wanting to say it is not a shooting attack because of the lack of template placement etc. but that doesn't change the fact that is uses the rules for shooting to resolve. (rolling to wound, armour saves, moral checks if 25% casualties). Nothing in the WoD rule details the attack as anything different and the over watch rule clearly tells us it is a shooting attack. It may not seem like a "normal" shooting attack to you, but it is at the very least, some type of shooting attack. As above, Overwatch does not care if you are firing a bolter, or using WoD; if you are firing Overwatch, you are making a shooting attack.

2. The reason WoD can be considered a shooting attack is because it is Overwatch, and Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack. Terror from the Deep, Bladevanes, etc are not shooting attacks because there are no rules which list them as such.

3. Because it is saying INSTEAD of snap shots. Not, "WoD counts as a snap shot. "Invisibility requires us to fire snap shots, and because WoD is doing something else (which is what "instead" means) it can't shoot the unit.

As humanas says, we are not simply replacing Snap Shots with the WoD. We are replacing an entire part of the shooting phase: (Select target+range+To Hit roll) and move on to To Wound Phase.

You have correctly stated this:

(rolling to wound, armour saves, moral checks if 25% casualties)

Your list does not contain a To Hit roll (or phase). How can you snap shot (a change of BS value) if you have no To Hit roll (which needs to be a 6 and cannot be a 1)?

As above, basic grammar disproves the first portion of your post.

The second part is even easier.

How can you snap shot (a change of BS value) if you have no To Hit roll

You can't. Which is why flamers can never shoot at invisible units.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Is the unit firing overwatch at the invisible unit?

If so, instead of firing snap shots a flamer template will "automatically inflicts D3 hits..." when firing overwatch "even though [Template weapons] cannot fire Snap Shots"

How has this debate gone on so long?

If you're going to start using 'basic grammar' (which you have conveniently not mentioned other parts of the rule) as a defense instead of actual rules.

Then how does Invsibility prevent "Automatic hits" grammatically or by definition?

As for the Instead portion:

Templates can not fire snap shots, Templates can fire overwatch using the LOD rule

Instead of snap shooting (which it can not do) it inflicts D3 automatic hits.

Nothing in the rules of Invisbility prevents this, as a "normal shooting attack" (weapon skill, to hit rolls, placement of template) is being made nor even a normal Overwatch (snap shots) being made.

Wall of Death therefore, can hit Invisbile units if they're being assaulted, and therefore being Overwatched.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Again you have failed to prove Invsibility disallows Wall of Death, through rules or even 'grammar'

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Is the unit firing overwatch at the invisible unit?

If so, instead of firing snap shots a flamer template will "automatically inflicts D3 hits..." when firing overwatch "even though [Template weapons] cannot fire Snap Shots"

How has this debate gone on so long?

Because there are two separate restrictions. WoD is a specific exception to restriction given by Overwatch, and only Overwatch. It is not an exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility. I have debunked this line of thought with a few examples now. I will post them again.

So by this logic

1) Crew Shaken says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Crew Shaken that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a shaken ravager at full BS and thus all 3 weapons will hit on a 3+.

It would be the same for Jink, firing at fliers, firing at an invisible unit, etc. In fact ill write that example too.

1) Invisibility says snap shots only.
2) Aerial Assault specifically grants Ravagers the ability to fire at full Ballistic Skill.
3) Absent some other wording in Invisibility that overrides Aerial Assault, RAW is clear. You can fire a Ravager at an invisible unit using its full BS and hit it on a 3+.

We know this is false.

I'll even go further and re-structure the second example to match your post.

Is the Ravager firing at the invisible unit?

If so, as long as the Ravager has moved Cruising Speed, it fires all of its weapons at full BS "A Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew's full Ballistic Skill."

Posting irrelevant Ravager rules does not an argument make.

Please post actual rules regarding Invisbility and Wall of Death, in which Invsibility negates Wall of Death, as written, in the rulebook.

You havent debunked anything

Does invisibility restrict auto hits from hitting it? No. So WOD works.

Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Is the unit firing overwatch at the invisible unit?

If so, instead of firing snap shots a flamer template will "automatically inflicts D3 hits..." when firing overwatch "even though [Template weapons] cannot fire Snap Shots"

How has this debate gone on so long?

Because there are two separate restrictions. WoD is a specific exception to restriction given by Overwatch, and only Overwatch. It is not an exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility. I have debunked this line of thought with a few examples now. I will post them again.

Which of course do not matter with overwatch shots because overwatch can only be fired as snap shots. and we know template weapons can not fire snap shots, instead they do WoD. so when overwatching against an invisible unit you use WoD as WoD is more specific than invis.

WoD gets around all snap shot restrictions on overwatch becayse WoD is the more specific rule.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
If you're going to start using 'basic grammar' (which you have conveniently not mentioned other parts of the rule) as a defense instead of actual rules.

Then how does Invsibility prevent "Automatic hits" grammatically or by definition?

As for the Instead portion:

Templates can not fire snap shots, Templates can fire overwatch using the LOD rule

Instead of snap shooting (which it can not do) it inflicts D3 automatic hits.

Nothing in the rules of Invisbility prevents this, as a "normal shooting attack" (weapon skill, to hit rolls, placement of template) is being made nor even a normal Overwatch (snap shots) being made.

Wall of Death therefore, can hit Invisbile units if they're being assaulted, and therefore being Overwatched.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."

Again you have failed to prove Invsibility disallows Wall of Death, through rules or even 'grammar'

I have proven that many times. Read the rule for invisibility. It Disallows ANYTHING that is not a snap shot.

"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit..."

Invisibility does not care if it is a "normal" shooting attack. Invisibility does not care if it is a "normal" Overwatch. I just asks you one question. Are you firing at the Invisible unit? The answer is yes. You fire Overwatch.

Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.."

We FIRE weapons in shooting attacks.

WoD: "Template weapons can FIRE overwatch..."

Again, we FIRE the weapon as per WoD

Invisibility: "...enemy units can only FIRE Snap Shots at the target unit..."

Pretty clear.

If you fire at an Invisible unit, you are restricted to snap shots. Period. Without a SPECIFIC exception, there is no way around this. WoD has no such exception.

Gravmyr wrote:
Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

I have proven that many times. Read the rule for invisibility. It Disallows ANYTHING that is not a snap shot.

"Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit..."

Invisibility does not care if it is a "normal" shooting attack. Invisibility does not care if it is a "normal" Overwatch. I just asks you one question. Are you firing at the Invisible unit? The answer is yes. You fire Overwatch.

Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.."

We FIRE weapons in shooting attacks.

WoD: "Template weapons can FIRE overwatch..."

Again, we FIRE the weapon as per WoD

Invisibility: "...enemy units can only FIRE Snap Shots at the target unit..."

Pretty clear.

Again, you have proven nothing except failure to read the rules as written.

Page/paragraph that Invisbility Disallows ANYTHING that is not a snap shot. , otherwise it would not only be able to not be hit by Psychic powers, it couldnt even be hit by blasts drifting on to it, which we know isnt true

 extremefreak17 wrote:

If you fire at an Invisible unit, you are restricted to snap shots. Period. Without a SPECIFIC exception, there is no way around this. WoD has no such exception.

WoD has a specific exception, you just refuse to read the rules as is. The WoD rule itself is the exception, key words "Instead" key words, "Automatic hits"

Other abilities have proven that Automatic Hits can bypass invisbility, unless you're now going to argue that Nova powers cant hit invisbile units either, which we know is false.

Again you have proven nothing except for an ability to not read the rules as written. WoD has specific permission to overwatch, the fact the unit is Invisbile is irrelevant, per the rules of overwatch you have to snapshot, per the rules of invisbility you have to snap shot, Invisbility is superfluous to the rules of Overwatch.

You have failed to prove that Invisbile units being overwatched get stacking Snap Shot requirements.

This is exactly like a drop pod dropping SM's and them not being able to charge. There are two restrictions and you only have permission to charge for one. They still cannot charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

The rules you have quoted even say you are firing. Therefor you are firing the weapon. You can't even choose to fire a weapon that cannot be snap shot.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

As we have told you many times, you don't even have permission to generate those hits in the first place. Generating those D3 hits is how a temple weapon fires Overwatch. its not the auto hits Invisibility denies, its the firing of non-snapshots that it denies. D3 auto hits are NOT Snap shots.

Edit: Read my last post before this one. It goes into greater detail.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

As we have told you many times, you don't even have permission to generate those hits in the first place. Generating those D3 hits is how a temple weapon fires Overwatch. its not the auto hits Invisibility denies, its the firing of non-snapshots that it denies. D3 auto hits are NOT Snap shots.

Edit: Read my last post before this one. It goes into greater detail.

Yes, you do Wall of Death gives you permission.

Repeating an incorrect statement doesnt make it true, you have failed to prove Invisbility prevents Wall of Death. If it were 'clear", this thread wouldnt exist now would it?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

As we have told you many times, you don't even have permission to generate those hits in the first place. Generating those D3 hits is how a temple weapon fires Overwatch. its not the auto hits Invisibility denies, its the firing of non-snapshots that it denies. D3 auto hits are NOT Snap shots.

Edit: Read my last post before this one. It goes into greater detail.

Yes, you do Wall of Death gives you permission.

Repeating an incorrect statement doesnt make it true, you have failed to prove Invisbility prevents Wall of Death. If it were 'clear", this thread wouldnt exist now would it?

Please give me the page number where WoD SPECIFICALLY says it can fire at invisible units without having to snap shoot. Again it needs to be a specific.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Per invisibility you cannot fire any weapon at an invisible unit unless you fire it as a Snap Shot. You can never fire a template weapon as a Snap Shot therefor you cannot WoD. Auto hits are irrelevant.

They're completely relevant, if WoD required placing the template then you might have an argument that you cant WoD an Invsibile unit, but you dont. The rule generates D3 automatic hits, Invisbility does not prevent this, unless you can provide a rule that Invisbile units can not be hit by special rules that generate automatic hits.

As we have told you many times, you don't even have permission to generate those hits in the first place. Generating those D3 hits is how a temple weapon fires Overwatch. its not the auto hits Invisibility denies, its the firing of non-snapshots that it denies. D3 auto hits are NOT Snap shots.

Edit: Read my last post before this one. It goes into greater detail.

Yes, you do Wall of Death gives you permission.

Repeating an incorrect statement doesnt make it true, you have failed to prove Invisbility prevents Wall of Death. If it were 'clear", this thread wouldnt exist now would it?

Please give me the page number where WoD SPECIFICALLY says it can fire at invisible units without having to snap shoot. Again it needs to be a specific.

Wall of Death rule, automatic hits can hit Invisbile units. Wall of death is not firing a template 'normally' its firing it per the wall of death rule and generating automatic hits

Read the rule.

What in the Invisibility power says you need to fire normally?

Gravmyr wrote:
What in the Invisibility power says you need to fire normally?

Please post a rule/page paragraph, that states WoD is a Template weapon 'firing normally"

You are the one using normally.