For those of you who don't follow Fantasy it advanced the storyline, retconed the last apocalyptic event (which was awful honestly), and made Archaon (Abbadon's counterpart) into a complete badass. Many established characters were killed, other famous and powerful villains came back from the dead etc. It's the end of the world done right basically.
Now do you want a similar thing to happen in 40k, by retconing the 13th Black Crusade and do it right this time? I know the whole ''Do you want the story to continue'' threads have been done to death, but now Fantasy has done it in a big way, which makes me wonder if they tested waters in case they want to do it for 40k.

Yeah Chaos could do with a boost so why not?
Abbadon could make it to Earth a couple of Primarchs could come back and the Emperor could die. Sounds like fun.

I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

Aye, 'sides, who's to say Abaddon won't get his ass handed to him, and the End Times of 40k is actually the Imperium beating back its various foes.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Aye, 'sides, who's to say Abaddon won't get his ass handed to him, and the End Times of 40k is actually the Imperium beating back its various foes.

If it's anything like the WHF version, it actually means lots of special characters on the Imperium and Eldar side would get whacked, not the other way round.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Aye, 'sides, who's to say Abaddon won't get his ass handed to him, and the End Times of 40k is actually the Imperium beating back its various foes.

If it's anything like the WHF version, it actually means lots of special characters on the Imperium and Eldar side would get whacked, not the other way round.

But old characters get to return. Such as both traitor and loyalist primarchs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Aye, 'sides, who's to say Abaddon won't get his ass handed to him, and the End Times of 40k is actually the Imperium beating back its various foes.

If it's anything like the WHF version, it actually means lots of special characters on the Imperium and Eldar side would get whacked, not the other way round.

I know, I am saying what if they did it the other way around, for a change, not that it'll ever happen, but hey.

No real need for it to "advance" which ultimately would just translate to "Here's a bunch more new books and models you need to buy."

Anyway once you open the floodgates of storyline advancement, you create pressure to do it again and again with increasing frequency, like what happened in the Battletech universe: so many changes to the story and the game itself, what resulted hardly felt the same as what it was. 3025 Era forever!!!!

The Emp wouldn't have to die... his body could finally give up the ghost, freeing him up to ascend and become a "Holy/Sanctic God" and form a Pantheon with perhaps some Eldar aspects and set themselves up as a direct counter to Chaos.. With Primarchs filling in as the "Mortarchs/Nurglearchs" equivalent...

Do it!

Everyone buys new characters and new rule books/codex/supplements so GW get money and we get an advanced storyline were hopefully the emperor dies.... everybody wins, except the emperor...

And people complain as primarchs are over powered killers who can shread infriantry and tanks while tanking hits that can cripple a landraider.

 Coldstream wrote:
No real need for it to "advance" which ultimately would just translate to "Here's a bunch more new books and models you need to buy."

Anyway once you open the floodgates of storyline advancement, you create pressure to do it again and again with increasing frequency, like what happened in the Battletech universe: so many changes to the story and the game itself, what resulted hardly felt the same as what it was. 3025 Era forever!!!!

I walked away from battletech because of that. the writers stopped providing us a setting and started trying to tell us stories. (it'd be better mind you if I didn;t have the impression I knew their source material better then they did. but I'll not drag a FCCW rant onto Dakka dakka)

that said I'd not be opposed to SOME plot advancement. ultimatly though you can't lose out on setting for constant stories

Yes, if they get A-D-B to do it

Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

 Thunderjaw wrote:
The Emp wouldn't have to die... his body could finally give up the ghost, freeing him up to ascend and become a "Holy/Sanctic God" and form a Pantheon with perhaps some Eldar aspects and set themselves up as a direct counter to Chaos.. With Primarchs filling in as the "Mortarchs/Nurglearchs" equivalent...

Or, even better, the carriongod's soul gets promptly swallowed by the dark gods while nothing else happens except of yet another conspiracy. The Imperium continues to slowly crumble because a million worlds and their giant industrial capacity won't fall quickly, the astronomicon continues to broadcast just as it did before the carriongod took his place on the magical toilet seat (perhaps they now use disposable alpha psykers to focus it, which would give a nice background for ever more desperate measures to aquire new "fuel") while life continues as usual for the average imperial citizen.
This way we can all keep the bleak, fascist hellhole we all came love and enjoy without turning the setting into yet another generic fight of good vs. evil.

Abso-fething-lutely not. Especially if there are returning loyalist Primarchs involved. I have no idea why so many people want to ruin 40K and turn it into 30K. There is already FW's HH, go play that if you want Primarchs in your games.

GW has already ruined my favourite FB faction (the Empire) by introducing stupid demi-god Emperor, I really do not need that in 40K.

Is like it if they un retconed the fall of Cadia but I don't want to see End Times for 40k.

Absolutely! Having it all stop before a specific date was a terrible idea, Battle-tech has a good storyline (cept one..specific instance) that does pretty well, we could have new SC's and changes to old ones as well.

I vote yes, because it is obvious that 40k needs an "Apocalyptic" setup soon. Look at the box covers, for instance, it suggests a darker, murkier theme. Look at the codexes, the front covers are grimer. No more Smurf Marines!

I think it'd be pretty neat if they held one campaign a year and the results of each campaign pushed the storyline one year further. That way we'd have progression in the storyline, but it would be so incremental that the overall setting wouldn't change much.

And I don't believe that GW will be around long enough to see it through to the end

 King Pariah wrote:
I think it'd be pretty neat if they held one campaign a year and the results of each campaign pushed the storyline one year further. That way we'd have progression in the storyline, but it would be so incremental that the overall setting wouldn't change much.

And I don't believe that GW will be around long enough to see it through to the end

I reallly don't want that, they've proven that they'll skew results, ignore results, and outright make it so that even if the results count, they'll win a "Moral Victory" or some sort.

Well, it was also proven that players will game the system to skew results, so you can't really just fault GM, lol.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Battle-tech has a good storyline (cept one..specific instance) .

Only if you have a thing for House Liao.

The problem with 40k advancing is The Black Crusade, GW have put too much emphasis on how much taking Cadia will effect the Imperiium. That all needs to be rectoned or Abbadon is going to have to lose as they can't have the faction that makes the most money as the underdogs.

Having Abbadon lose again would be a joke btw.

PastelAvenger wrote:
Having Abbadon lose again would be a joke btw.

Or...

Perhaps Chaos is the parable for those who grasp at ultimate power, and the reason they lose continually in the fluff is because they're supposed to. Chaos gains nothing from Abaddon's victory. Only Abaddon does.

The forces of Chaos have continually lost because they don't have the unity and sense of purpose the Imperium does. They fight out of bitterness and spite, and their victories are short-lived and meaningless.


Look at what the Traitors gained. A eternal life of torment and madness. Lorgar writes a book nobody reads. Perturabo defends a planet nobody attacks. Angron is locked in a continual loop of attack and banishment, meaning he spends 95-98% of his existence confined to the Warp instead of fighting like he wants to. Fulgrim is a lizard.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

PastelAvenger wrote:
Having Abbadon lose again would be a joke btw.

Or...

Perhaps Chaos is the parable for those who grasp at ultimate power, and the reason they lose continually in the fluff is because they're supposed to. Chaos gains nothing from Abaddon's victory. Only Abaddon does.

The forces of Chaos have continually lost because they don't have the unity and sense of purpose the Imperium does. They fight out of bitterness and spite, and their victories are short-lived and meaningless.


Look at what the Traitors gained. A eternal life of torment and madness. Lorgar writes a book nobody reads. Perturabo defends a planet nobody attacks. Angron is locked in a continual loop of attack and banishment, meaning he spends 95-98% of his existence confined to the Warp instead of fighting like he wants to. Fulgrim is a lizard.

That's pretty good, Never thought of it that way.

The problem GW has had with the big campaigns they have done in the past, ala 3rd Armageddon, and 13th black crusade is they have tried to wrap them up in the space of a summer. These conflicts would take YEARS to complete... So, why didn't GW take years to complete the campaign, every summer the war zone get's re-opened, new sides and formations are made to keep it interesting, a couple of new supplements total for some armies to keep it fresh but give the players a regular focus and campaign to partake in.

The difference is, they then don't have to BS there way through a result the story line wouldn't like, as in the first summer campaign for example would just be about invading the outer worlds or just landing on cadia etc etc etc.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts it exactly. This would be a bad idea. Besides, Abaddon making it to Terra means he destroyed Cadia. That first step alone is gonna make for a lot of pissed off AM players.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts it exactly. This would be a bad idea. Besides, Abaddon making it to Terra means he destroyed Cadia. That first step alone is gonna make for a lot of pissed off AM players.

Because every AM player is a Cadian player.

 Coldstream wrote:
No real need for it to "advance" which ultimately would just translate to "Here's a bunch more new books and models you need to buy."

That is going to happen regardless. I'd feel a lot better about buying 'Codex Space Marines' for the 15th time if they actually changed something significant, instead of just retelling the same tired fluff that I read 20 years ago.

I'm all for this! End times, kill the emperor, blow the lid off the lost legions, bring back squats!

Aren't they already in the Time of Ending?

But nah, personally I would prefer they didn't do an End Times for 40K. As is, things are on too much of a knife-edge. There's the possibility that things advancing would either have the Imperium get too badly messed up to have any real hope, or the threats get pushed back/contained by some deus ex machina and made to look less serious.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts it exactly. This would be a bad idea. Besides, Abaddon making it to Terra means he destroyed Cadia. That first step alone is gonna make for a lot of pissed off AM players.

Because every AM player is a Cadian player.

Did I say they are all Cadian players? No, I don't believe I did. Perhaps you should actually post useful things.

But, a lot of people do play as Cadian regiments who would not be pleased I imagine.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Aye, 'sides, who's to say Abaddon won't get his ass handed to him, and the End Times of 40k is actually the Imperium beating back its various foes.

If it's anything like the WHF version, it actually means lots of special characters on the Imperium and Eldar side would get whacked, not the other way round.

I know, I am saying what if they did it the other way around, for a change, not that it'll ever happen, but hey.

Yeah and then half of them comeback with supped up statlines...

If they executed it well, then feth yeah.

I hope that this happens the return of the pirmarchs would be awesome, same with hopefully some way to finally destroy chaos and the tyranid threat across the galaxy, orks become pirates basically because they get caught in the crossfire but can never actually be completely destroyed cause spores, most necrons get destroyed, and an uneasy alliance ensues between the tau, eldar, and imperium. And hopefully alot of imperial mercenary split offs to introduce some new cool models. Anyway thats just my take of what i think should happen cheers!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts it exactly. This would be a bad idea. Besides, Abaddon making it to Terra means he destroyed Cadia. That first step alone is gonna make for a lot of pissed off AM players.

Because every AM player is a Cadian player.

Yeah, but the Cadians are the most heavily branded IGuard regiment.

There's zero chance Cadia gets destroyed. Just from a business perspective, lol.

The FFG RPG Only War (p. 319) has a bit where it says the Administratum is aware of at least 3 dozen worlds called Nova Cadia, presumably founded by Cadian regiments. Cadia itself is not critical for the continuation of the Cadian miniature line at all. If GW really wanted they could destroy the original Cadia, and have another planet be named Cadia in remembrance of their lost home world by Cadian regiments.

It doesn't need to destroy Cadia. You just need to break the blockade so Chaos Crusades can be launched willy nilly with no blockade to intercept them.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

My thoughts it exactly. This would be a bad idea. Besides, Abaddon making it to Terra means he destroyed Cadia. That first step alone is gonna make for a lot of pissed off AM players.

Because every AM player is a Cadian player.

Did I say they are all Cadian players? No, I don't believe I did. Perhaps you should actually post useful things.

But, a lot of people do play as Cadian regiments who would not be pleased I imagine.

Maybe if you posted something useful in return.

However if Cadia dies they likely will have something to keep for it, there's Cadian regiments all across the galaxy, they might end up remnants with actual rules, heck there are some major AM regiment factions that are far smaller and still are represented.

Abbadon failing yet again after boosting his power, fixing his black crusades to make them seem less like failures, and then after all this failed to do anything of meaning would just be another slap in the face to Chaos after the old Campaign already showed they'd be willing to bend the rules for what they want to happen.

GW could just implement the Eye of Terror campaign results instead of trying to retcon them. It was a Chaos victory, making the setting darker, and Abaddon had broken out past Cadia, though Cadia itself had not entirely fallen. Things got darker without breaking the setting, as it also had the Imperium drawing reinforcements from further afield in order to reinforce its interior. Of course this meant other factions had renewed opportunity to pick at the Imperium's suddenly weaker periphery.

40k has an entire galaxy to play with. They could have an all encompassing two year long themed campaign with new books and characters and results that affected the campaign and new missions and detachments and alternative psyker rules to reflect the varying of the warp in the vicinity of the massive conflagration...

And still have it be one tiny corner of the the galaxy.

Why on earth would anyone want them to be daft enough to 'advance' the story rather than just tell a good story in one part of this galaxy, thus allowing the rest of us to keep telling our stories without having to feel like our stories don't match the big event anymore?

I'd be all for some actual expansion of the 40k setting, and while I'd be up for an "End Times" affair, it is important to note that there are 10 millenia of Imperial history as of yet almost completely undeveloped.

If GW wanted to expand the 40k license without risking "mucking things up," why not actually expand upon the oft-referenced Age of Apostasy, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Macharian Crusade/Heresy, the Scouring, etc. There are lots of "eras" they could develop with new units, characters and the like, not unlike how WW2 games usually have an early/mid/late war mechanic.

That being said, I don't have much confidence in GW doing much justice to any project like this. The End Times have proven interesting from a narrative perspective, and I've enjoyed them thus far, but they're incredibly lazy from a rules perspective, and remain an anomaly in terms of narrative quality. Most GW studio publications are vapid, shallow and childish, seemingly intentionally so, with the codexes and supplements being especially guilty of that, with a handful of exceptions.

Even if, say, GW has turned a new leaf and is now going to write more narrative interesting and developed products (Shield of Baal will be telling in that regard), they still haven't demonstrated any talent whatsoever in writing both interesting and balanced rules. What did the End Times provide, rules wise, between two expensive book sets? More lords and heros, as a lazy way to try and provide an avenue for people to avoid the massive sticker shock in getting a fantasy army, a few new/updated characters and some combined army lists. What does Shield of Baal promise? Some Tyranid formations and rules for the new models they're releasing. hardly the stuff of legend, sure to build an outpouring of enthusiasm for the product.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'd be all for some actual expansion of the 40k setting, and while I'd be up for an "End Times" affair, it is important to note that there are 10 millenia of Imperial history as of yet almost completely undeveloped.

If GW wanted to expand the 40k license without risking "mucking things up," why not actually expand upon the oft-referenced Age of Apostasy, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Macharian Crusade/Heresy, the Scouring, etc. There are lots of "eras" they could develop with new units, characters and the like, not unlike how WW2 games usually have an early/mid/late war mechanic.

Because not every faction has 10k years to work with. The Tyranids arrived only in in late M41, and similarly the Tau have only been active for a few centuries. Necrons have only been recognized as such again since Sanctuary 101. Essentially if GW restricts only to the past of the Imperium, all players of those races will be forever locked out.

Sure, one could handwave and say it is a bunch of random alien monsters or minor alien race, but most people play their factions to play actually as them not as some sort of "counts as". Although some might raise the argument of random Necrons waking up ahead of schedule, the problem with that is it similarly constrains what the Necron faction in any campaign or expansion can accomplish, since the Imperium is not aware of Necrons til Sanctuary 101 which is in 897.M41. In other words, any early waking Necrons have to accomplish next to nothing and go back to sleep or sit around doing nothing for thousands of years and the Imperium needs to forget and remain entirely unaware of them until their first contact at Sanctuary 101. A similar situation exists if one tries to argue there may have been early Tyranid scouting forces.

The timeline was moving forward steadily right up til the 13th Black Crusade, at a rate of about 1 game year per real life year. This didn't destroy the setting and there is no reason why a similar slow crawl forward would suddenly destroy the setting. People keep acting as if moving the timeline forward were some dangerous never before tried thing, when in reality, it was the standard case until the last few editions. People also make the error of equating timeline advancement with stupendous overturning change such as the Emperor dying or Primarchs returning, when nothing of the sort needs to happen. The slow steady incremental advancement of the timeline in past editions did not involve this, and there is no reason rolling over into M42 could not do this incremental movement.

Not only did the setting not explode when the timeline moved forward in the past, but the advancement allowed for the advancement of individual character stories, even though the larger universe stayed largely status quo. For example, only when there was movement was Tycho able to evolve as a character, from a generic BA captain, to being disfigured as a result of being felled by a Weirdboy in a battle report, to then the masked Tycho, and finally to his death. Similarly, Yarrick developed through his defeat on Golgotha (an Epic Squat/Imperial vs. Ork battle report), heightening the rivalry between him and Ghazghkull. A lot of the background which gets taken for granted today did not spring up unchanging and set in stone, but developed in gradual steps as a result of timeline movement. Some people might question what is the point of incremental advancement if the larger picture is not radically changed, and the answer is it allows for individual stories to change and progress.

Maybe not to the same scale, but I would love to see more back and forth in the Fluff every couple editions to change it up.

Doesn't have to be a giant step, but little things here and there. First off, Chaos wins the 13th black crusade.

Then around 9th or so, Abaddon finds an X that will allow him to y.

around 11th, until recently unknown Space Marine Chapter 246 recovers X from Abaddon.

around 13th, Abaddon Converts Chapter 246 and gets X back.

Around 15h, Calgar gets ahold of and destroys X, leaving abaddon back at square one,

Something to that effect that, while overall changes nothing (except Cadia, but Chaos should have had that anyways), but adds new flavor to the fluff.]

Same could be done for any race( and preferably EVERY race)

And I'm totally for them doing incremental advances, hell, I just want GW to do something other than these shallow, unrelated, underdeveloped "Campaign Supplements" for things no one cares about and has no bearing on anything consequence.

No one was asking for Crimson Slaughter or the Red Waagh, or these other "out of the blue" products. What they want is products which tie in to or build upon the wider universe, whether that's expanding the background (when has a story/product not been set in 999M41 after all? Just look at the timeline in the BRB...., 999M41 is the largest section by several orders of magnitude) or taking steps forwards with the factions and characters people care about, it doesn't matter, but GW's performance with the 40k IP has so far not indicated they have the desire or competency to do so.

The only genuinely interesting 40k product I've read out of GW prime was the Farsight Enclaves supplement. It gave you rules to play the army that matches the character, and expanded upon a well liked, but ultimately undeveloped character and subfaction quite dramatically (and gave us 40k's first functional democracy). That was cool, that was what I'd like to see GW build upon that, rather than the path they've taken instead and write stories which don't matter, invent characters on the fly and kill them off within moments and ultimately fail to do anything of interest or consequence.

Meanwhile, Alan Bligh and co continue to produce superb, enjoyable and notable, but no universe-shattering stories, campaigns and rules with a continuous cast of characters and factions which have grown, developed and changed over the years of their writing.

40k end times already happened, all they would need to do is expand upon the 13th black crusade and add new characters and models, chuck in campaign books that allow for special "allied" detachments and your a go.

Why would I want an End to 40k ?

End Times 2014 for whfb is one thing, 20 years of end times after 2014 .....

Think about it. 40 k exists for decades. You can't have "apokalyptic changes" each year, so your game has to have a stable ground to build upon. Eternal War provides this. End times however raise the expectations of an "end" to something.

I'd wait for the development in whfb to its conclusion, keep an eye where they move after that. The Fantasy game is also a single Planet game.A Different scale IMO.
Maybe if someone used more than 2 braincells at GW HQ and campaigns "zoomed in" and the changes were about small parts of a world ( and thus "to scale" with 40k armies ) , they would fare better ?
Leveled cities may rise again. Destroyed species and systems however...

So NO, no end times for me please.

Thanks for the replies guys. Didn't expect that many.

Now myself I'd like an End Times and this is what I want to happen:

-Cadia becomes a daemon world
-A second siege of Terra happens, and the Emperor dies as the Golden Throne is damaged in the attack
-Dante dies in the siege
-The GK's are all destroyed
-Abaddon is killed *somehow* and the gods look for a new Warmaster
-The C'tan under Mars awakens during the whole siege and annihilates plenty of Imperial and Chaos forces in it's attempt to flee
-Marneus Calgar is murdered by Cato Sicarius in secret, and Cato becomes the new Smurf chapter master
-The missing loyalist Primarchs return and lead over the fractured Imperium
-The Inquisition is disbanded and it's members hunted down by the Primarchs
-Ghazkull's galactic WAAAGH! is kept busy by the ongoing wave of Tyranids
-The Tau Empire is also defending itself against the Tyranids
-Necrons awake. Necrons awake everywhere

Now obviously none of this will happen, so don't jump on my throat!

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. Didn't expect that many.

Now myself I'd like an End Times and this is what I want to happen:

-Cadia becomes a daemon world
-A second siege of Terra happens, and the Emperor dies as the Golden Throne is damaged in the attack
-Dante dies in the siege
-The GK's are all destroyed
-Abaddon is killed *somehow* and the gods look for a new Warmaster
-The C'tan under Mars awakens during the whole siege and annihilates plenty of Imperial and Chaos forces in it's attempt to flee
-Marneus Calgar is murdered by Cato Sicarius in secret, and Cato becomes the new Smurf chapter master
-The missing loyalist Primarchs return and lead over the fractured Imperium
-The Inquisition is disbanded and it's members hunted down by the Primarchs
-Ghazkull's galactic WAAAGH! is kept busy by the ongoing wave of Tyranids
-The Tau Empire is also defending itself against the Tyranids
-Necrons awake. Necrons awake everywhere

Now obviously none of this will happen, so don't jump on my throat!

Is your last name Martin, along with your first name being George? Maybe have RR as extra initials?

I think an incremental Advancement would be fascinating. The Hive fleetLleviathan vs Orks Campaign could be fascinating for instance. Or A kroot/tau/Gu'vesa Vs tyranids campaign. Obviously these are a little more niche because the Imperium isn't involved but they can still have far reaching consequences and advance the story line. The same could be done with a renewed Eldar/ Dark Eldar vs Necron storyline. The use of side systems and characters apart from humanity and it's corrupted cousins could make for fantastic campaigns, compelling story lines and brilliant new models WITHOUT massively changing the setting.
I hope Shield of Baal is a step in this direction.

I want an End Times for Games Workshop.

GW have made the first advancement in a while by the sound of it. Leviathan has made it to the baal system.


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endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. Didn't expect that many.

Now myself I'd like an End Times and this is what I want to happen:

-Cadia becomes a daemon world
-A second siege of Terra happens, and the Emperor dies as the Golden Throne is damaged in the attack
-Dante dies in the siege
-The GK's are all destroyed
-Abaddon is killed *somehow* and the gods look for a new Warmaster
-The C'tan under Mars awakens during the whole siege and annihilates plenty of Imperial and Chaos forces in it's attempt to flee
-Marneus Calgar is murdered by Cato Sicarius in secret, and Cato becomes the new Smurf chapter master
-The missing loyalist Primarchs return and lead over the fractured Imperium
-The Inquisition is disbanded and it's members hunted down by the Primarchs
-Ghazkull's galactic WAAAGH! is kept busy by the ongoing wave of Tyranids
-The Tau Empire is also defending itself against the Tyranids
-Necrons awake. Necrons awake everywhere

Now obviously none of this will happen, so don't jump on my throat!

Is your last name Martin, along with your first name being George? Maybe have RR as extra initials?

Haha! Lord Spartacus hasn't wiped out ALL the main characters yet.

On a side note - I like your thinking of the advancement there.

I'd hope FW and BL finish their Horus Heresy series before they do anything like end times for 40k. It would provide characters and other little stories they could pick up on and use. As long as after they're done with it the overall situation remains the same, I wouldn't be opposed to it if it means that GW release some nice new models. Honestly though, I prefer the route they seem to be going down at the moment, where they release models and books in little campaigns (Shield of Baal, Sanctus Reach, Dark Vengeance).

Poly Ranger wrote:
GW have made the first advancement in a while by the sound of it. Leviathan has made it to the baal system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[img]

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. Didn't expect that many.

Now myself I'd like an End Times and this is what I want to happen:

-Cadia becomes a daemon world
-A second siege of Terra happens, and the Emperor dies as the Golden Throne is damaged in the attack
-Dante dies in the siege
-The GK's are all destroyed
-Abaddon is killed *somehow* and the gods look for a new Warmaster
-The C'tan under Mars awakens during the whole siege and annihilates plenty of Imperial and Chaos forces in it's attempt to flee
-Marneus Calgar is murdered by Cato Sicarius in secret, and Cato becomes the new Smurf chapter master
-The missing loyalist Primarchs return and lead over the fractured Imperium
-The Inquisition is disbanded and it's members hunted down by the Primarchs
-Ghazkull's galactic WAAAGH! is kept busy by the ongoing wave of Tyranids
-The Tau Empire is also defending itself against the Tyranids
-Necrons awake. Necrons awake everywhere

Now obviously none of this will happen, so don't jump on my throat!

Is your last name Martin, along with your first name being George? Maybe have RR as extra initials?

Haha! Lord Spartacus hasn't wiped out ALL the main characters yet.

On a side note - I like your thinking of the advancement there.

He won't kill them all off. Sansa Stark will survive it all just to troll everyone who doesn't like her.

Joke aside, since we have the new blood angel codex rumoured to be on the horizon, and considering how old the model is... Imagine if they actually killed off Dante and gave a new chapter master for one of the big 4.

To appease moaning players about the now lack of use of old models, just give enough relics to cover a chapter master that can act as Dante.

Actually could kill a fair few major Blood Angel characters and give total new ones.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Joke aside, since we have the new blood angel codex rumoured to be on the horizon, and considering how old the model is... Imagine if they actually killed off Dante and gave a new chapter master for one of the big 4.

To appease moaning players about the now lack of use of old models, just give enough relics to cover a chapter master that can act as Dante.

Actually could kill a fair few major Blood Angel characters and give total new ones.

There's a prophecy that a golden warrior will be there to save the Emperor that Dante believes is him. I doubt GW will want to resolve the question by killing Dante off prematurely.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Is your last name Martin, along with your first name being George? Maybe have RR as extra initials?

You like that Imperium don't you?

-Right after the Emperor dies a massive psychic shockwave is felt by all imperial psykers driving them insane/killing them.
-A portal opens on the Golden Throne and countless daemons spill from it
-The GK's rush to the hall and contain the unholy host, until Draigo arrives from the portal and closes it with his magic powers. The effort was too big and he dies because of it. The entire chapter perishes during this battle
-Communication is cut off from countless Imperial planets. Bloody revolts ensue.
-Civil war spreads across the Imperium but is eventually stopped by Lorgar.

No No, my reference wasn't because of my like/dislike of the imperium, it was because of the sheer amount of massive characters and legendary factions you were willing to kill off in one coup!

By my count you had:

Big E
Abbs
Dante
Calgar
Every Grey Knight
Every imperial on Cadia (Creed is there right)
Every Custodes member (due to the web way rift when the Big E goes)
Every imperial member who is now stuck on a world in a massive civil war
The expansion of the EoT due to the taking over of cadia would kill EVERY Eldar on craftworlds near the EoT.

I'm not disputing your suggestion, just saying, not since the red wedding has a single chapter marked the death of so many main characters!

I like it though... change is good.

Honestly, it wouldn't matter to me. The only thing I would really want is another international campaign such as the Cities Of Death from a few years back(2006?)

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
No No, my reference wasn't because of my like/dislike of the imperium, it was because of the sheer amount of massive characters and legendary factions you were willing to kill off in one coup!
I'm not disputing your suggestion, just saying, not since the red wedding has a single chapter marked the death of so many main characters!
I like it though... change is good.

I was acting like Mr Martin.

Totally went over my head. touché

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Why on earth would anyone want them to be daft enough to 'advance' the story rather than just tell a good story in one part of this galaxy, thus allowing the rest of us to keep telling our stories without having to feel like our stories don't match the big event anymore?

This.

Part of the reason the story has to advance in WHFB is that it primarily takes place on a single Europe size continent. The great thing about 40k is its a whole galaxy. There's a trillion interesting stories taking place every day in the Imperium. That's why I really liked the Armageddon campaign, it was important but localised enough that a result either way doesn't effect the overall canon (the Imperials were defeated? Ah well what's new, Decline and Fall and all that...) whereas the Eye of Terror campaign was ridiculously huge that the result could in a fluff context only disappoint.

That campaign also had other flaws namely the scoring system they used which totally buggered up the result. Also a sector wide campaign in what was only a few weeks meant there was little background detail beyond rehashing Abaddon who frankly I think they should just kill off, its not very Chaos-y to let that serial loser keep the top spot for 10,000 years. Hell that could be a campaign kicker in of itself, have a new young gun murder Abaddon and try a different strategy.

I think due to the Horus Heresy books the big players have become too humanised. 40k is meant to be a setting in which you create your own stories, in real terms the Emperor and the like are not important, they're background detail. I have no interest in seeing the Primarchs return, they serve a narrative purpose by being absent, the Imperium is in flames and humanity could really use some demigods to help them out but guess what they're haven't shown up - grim dark, holding out hope, impending doom - strong dramatic themes.

What happens if the Primarchs return? In a world of giant guns and giant heroes who would put Super Conan to shame, we have the norm turned up to 11 while also upsetting the established canon and themes. Its not worth it IMO. Same goes for the Emperor, his physical shell is dying and no one is really sure if he'll ascend afterwards to lead a new golden age or just die, putting humanity into darkness. Why answer that question? Its an excellent set-up and the answer will never live up to the hype.

I always thought the obvious way around the Eye of Terror thing while still having a large scale Chaos-focused campaign it to rehash the Battlefleet Gothic setting or frankly rip it off since BFG has been consigned to the dustbin. Have Chaos come through another wormhole and make a drive for Earth. Plenty at stake but even a crippling win for the Dark Gods just means Sector X has fallen, yet another wound in the Imperium's side. Hell you could keep it running yearly, every time its a new star system and a Chaos victory means they're getting closer to Terra.

Some would say that's boring that the stakes aren't high enough but they seem to be forgetting this is a serial setting, it cannot end. Chaos can no more reach Terra than Lex Luthor can murder Superman (and it stick I mean). Look back at Armageddon, they gave rich detail about that single planet and its importance to the Imperium that even though its loss would not kill humanity, you cared as a player. It wasn't about god-beings, it was about the Orks trying to seize the water refineries that if destroyed would doom billions of citizens, or Yarrick leading entire chapters of Space Marines in a charge on the Rok landing sites to cut off reinforcements. The Fluff, or rather the fluff certain people (both writers and readers) focus on is so epic in scale it seems to make them forget that the 'normal' stuff is already gargantuan. Ironically that stuff ends up becoming small again with only a select group of deities mattering to the story, while untold awesome events happening on countless worlds go ignored.

Like I said before, they already did end Times 40k, and as the above post pretty much stated it was a disappoinment, mainly as gw didn't have the balls to do what they said they'd do, I remember speaking to one of the design studio at the time of the 13th black crusade and he stated that should chaps win then fenris would be destroyed, ulthwe would be gone etc.

Clearly the studio didn't actually expect chaos to win, as they bailed on pretty much everything I was told.

Now if they go back to the 13th black crusade and expand upon it, flesh out the pretty poor fluff it had and introduce new models and characters, well, that would be cool.

And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Perhaps if the Imperium wasn't limited to roughly 1,000 subjects for each Chapter(even those well represented), advancing the storyline in a singular area would be fine. As it stands, with the current 'ongoing, just wrapped up, or planned' conflicts in the storyline, most of the major Chapters wouldn't be represented. This would make the unimaginative Marine players very sad.

 Formosa wrote:


And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Well....after a bit of helpful retconning anyway.

"All those Black Crusades that got stopped? Yeah, I meant to do that! I didn't lose, I was just practicing!!!!"

I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

 Coldstream wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


And I wish people would stop saying abbadon is a failure, he isn't, he achieved every goal he set for himself in his black crusades, lack of a decent model I feel feeds the mockery

Well....after a bit of helpful retconning anyway.

"All those Black Crusades that got stopped? Yeah, I meant to do that! I didn't lose, I was just practicing!!!!"

None of them got stopped, he mainly had an objective, went for it, accomplished it and left.

I think it would be cool. Primarchs not only come back from the warp but some changes sides, Magnus the red takes his fathers place at the throne so that the EM can start his physical healing process, sssshh its a secreat. Russ becomes a Daemon from being in the warp for too long and his legion has to deal with the betrayl, same as the thousand sons. This attracks a huge tyranid force invasion, as the EM and Magnus are in one spot, A new Mega-Ork Warboss, replaceses Ghazkull after his death. The tau gain necron slip stream travel, but still have to deal with the skisim from Commander Farsight. The Eldar lear how to replicate at the cost of increasing the power of Slanesssh.

I some of these ideas may be impossible but there are sooo many possibilitys I would hate for them to no explore them.

Do you want the story to advance the way you don't want it to advance?
There'd be even more whining and rage-quitting cause the story can't satisfy everyone.
Personally, i don't mind storry advancement. But i think that GW won't do it just yet. They're getting really heavy on the "It's coming, it's coming!" part with every new dex and rulebook. They might advance the story when all the dexes are updated to the new format.

...and what do you think they reserve LoW slots for?

 koooaei wrote:
Do you want the story to advance the way you don't want it to advance?
There'd be even more whining and rage-quitting cause the story can't satisfy everyone.
Personally, i don't mind storry advancement. But i think that GW won't do it just yet. They're getting really heavy on the "It's coming, it's coming!" part with every new dex and rulebook. They might advance the story when all the dexes are updated to the new format.

...and what do you think they reserve LoW slots for?

Or they get desperate.

They got desperate with fantasy, the line was failing, in terminal decline in several markets. In one of their moments of actual intelligence, they realized that one of the main draws to their games are the settings, so shaking things up thematically while providing only minor to moderate overarching rules changes, without having to deal with that big pink elephant in the corner of pricing, they've driven up attention, and at least anecdotally, that has driven up the game's performance. I've seen regular fantasy games for the first time in years, consistently, at multiple stores, and product is actually moving again. I can't fathom the full scale, or how long it'll last, but they certainly seem to have found something which works. (Though I suspect its compounded by how bad 40k has become, rather than the End Times alone) If their flagship of 40k starts to struggle (and by all accounts, GW is seeing declining product movements, from the anecdotal stories to the financial reports), I suspect they'll try the same approach if they see returns they like with Fantasy.

Truly, I suspect it's more a matter of when, not if there is a 40k End Times.

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

Tau will also get wiped out so that everyone could stop whining about riptides and markers.

Dark Eldar win.

mrgarm13 wrote:
I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

Was with you all they until The Big E was stood up all of a sudden, and he had Horus beside him, who isn't just dead, dude is like DEAD dead...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Was with you all they until The Big E was stood up all of a sudden, and he had Horus beside him, who isn't just dead, dude is like DEAD dead...

Well, he got better.

Horus got cloned perfectly.... So he could conceivably come back again, it wouldn't ve the horus but a horus prior to his fall (I.e a fresh horus)

White Wolf finally, after several incarnations of their 'near apocalyptic' World of Darkness themed games, staged a full and total End Times.

Shortly thereafter the company ceased to exist.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Gapow wrote:
Well the Eldar would probably be wiped out, so everyone could stop whinging about Wave Serpents for 5 minutes

Sold.

Tau will also get wiped out so that everyone could stop whining about riptides and markers.

Not likely, since they're on the opposite end of the galaxy from everything that's going on.

Not likely, since they're on the opposite end of the galaxy from everything that's going on.

And directly in the path of like 4 Tyranid Hive Fleets, and with the Space Marines on the opposite side of the galaxy fighting Abaddon, there's noone to stop them.

 Formosa wrote:
Horus got cloned perfectly.... So he could conceivably come back again, it wouldn't ve the horus but a horus prior to his fall (I.e a fresh horus)

You mean the one's that got completely destroyed by Abbadon, as well as all the material that could be used to make more Horus CLones?

While cloning his body might (theoretically) be possible, his soul was destroyed utterly. Wiped completely out of existence. So you don't get a New Horus, you get Some Guy That Looks Like Horus.

Question is where does the game go once you've done the End Times?

If it mirrors WHFB's current high-jinks and people's wish the Emperor comes back all fresh faced where does that leave the product? I think you can do plenty of important events without something so extreme, and yes the Emperor coming back up-ends the entire product. Even ignoring niggling issues it would mean the Imperium gets fresh wind and logical, awesome leadership which is destined for the land of Mary Sue.

Some suggestions, none of which are totally new but beyond vague references have never been expanded on by the official canon. All play to the Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire theme without chucking the baby out with the bath water.

The Segmentum Pacificus is currently in flames due to rebellion. Why not have the Imperium lose that region completely due to her overstretched resources, leading to a rival human empire or religious schism? Interestingly this is normal citizens albeit encouraged by CSM, presumably the Alpha Legion which opens up a lot of possibilities.

Its been mentioned that Ultramar is not a totally unique case and that Space Marine chapters are increasingly being asked to directly rule regions of the Imperium. This is a clear sign of Imperial decline from the centre. Mirroring the real world Western Roman Empire have outlying governors be 'allowed' to established petty kingdoms, praising the Emperor but looking completely to their own defense, which in turns weakens Terra further, leads to more inter-human wars, factionalism etc. Indeed why not a Huron-esque chapter master do the same, only this time the Imperium is unable or unwilling to launch something as huge as the Badab War and to muddy the waters he is totally loyal to the Emperor as an idea but thinks the High Lords are morons. Basically the Imperium begins to devolve into something truly feudal, with Terra defended for religious reasons and the Astronomicon but beyond that its all about your own chapter, world, family, clan, corporation etc.

Have Chaos use its evil magic to burst open a new 'Little Eye of Terror' deep in Imperial space from which Abaddon launches a do or die Crusade against Terra. Cadia still needs defending but now the Imperium has been caught in the flank and huge resources are pulled back, with entire sectors being thrown to the dogs so Earth is safe. Abaddon is beaten back but the Imperium has been brutally wounded, lost not only countless soldiers in the fight but countless worlds stripped of defenders. There is now a second major point of entry for Chaos, Imperial power has been shaken like never before, other enemies have made vast inroads into human space and certain Imperial governors are mortified by the example, worried that maybe next time it will be there sector stripped of able bodied men and left defenceless.

The latter in particular could lead to plenty of concrete events (just spit balling 'cool' ideas).

1) The new Eye is birthed from the bloodshed around Angron's monolith on Armageddon, consuming that crucial hive world, dozens more and untold Imperial soldiers in the process, plus giving Chaos a foothold in the Solar Segmentum.
2) Abaddon makes it to Sol. Titan is overrun by daemons, forcing Exterminatus and leaving the Grey Knights all but destroyed.
3) In order to hold off the invasion big name Chapter Masters and others die. Hell maybe one of the primarchs actually returns, only to die in some huge heroic act like taking out the Planet Killer on course to nuke Terra.
4) Abaddon lands on Terra and is determined to destroy the Golden Throne only for huge Imperial reinforcements to enter the system. A cunning lieutenant (established as a major character) of his realises they are doomed if they stay and kills Abaddon himself (completely backed up by the cackling Chaos Gods) so he can take command. He orders one final destructive act before departing, the reactors on Mars are sent into overload, returning the planet to a barren wasteland and destroying weapons, knowledge and manpower that can never be replaced. He makes it clear, next time will be the last time.

All of this would be big changes but the Emperor remains seated and the Imperium remains doomed. The grim dark get grimmer but ultimately the universe we all (well some) know and love remains standing.

 Jape wrote:
4) Abaddon lands on Terra and is determined to destroy the Golden Throne only for huge Imperial reinforcements to enter the system. A cunning lieutenant (established as a major character) of his realises they are doomed if they stay and kills Abaddon himself (completely backed up by the cackling Chaos Gods) so he can take command. He orders one final destructive act before departing, the reactors on Mars are sent into overload, returning the planet to a barren wasteland and destroying weapons, knowledge and manpower that can never be replaced. He makes it clear, next time will be the last time.

All of this would be big changes but the Emperor remains seated and the Imperium remains doomed. The grim dark get grimmer but ultimately the universe we all (well some) know and love remains standing.

I'd think the Void Dragon might have something to say about Chaos nuking Mars...

Anyway, I think you raise the proper point at the beginning of your reply "Where do you go once you've done the End Times?"

Typical for most settings is: nowhere.

What that usually means is one of two things,

Choice 1: like MeanGreenStompa said with White Wolf, the company (and setting) ceases to exist. Maybe it wouldn't be that extreme to shutter GW, but might result in what happens with the various D&D version changes that leads to further splintering of the community...something the hobby probably can't really afford.

Or Option B: You see what happens in the Battletech and/or Star Wars Universe...the "narrative" has been advanced, we've sold lots of new books/models, but invariably find ourselves forced back to where we were before. The Battletech Universe broke itself after the Clan invasion/rediscovery of Lostech and reformation of the Star League...they eventually had to shatter everything back again and move the setting into a "New" Dark age...which is pretty where we were before. How many times is the Star War universe going to go back to the well of "Oh no...an evil individual (who may or may not be a clone of Palpatine) is here with a new Death Star/Sun Crusher/SuperDuperStar Destroyers, etc...if only we had some sort of Force sensitive twins able to stop them!" I'd guess the same thing would happen to the 40K Universe. "We're at the End Times!!!! The Imperium is tottering! Chaos is crazy! The Eldar are snobby! The Tyranid are eating stuff! Such a fun new storyline! Wait...."

The 40K universe was never really meant to "advance" per se when it was created. We've seen the trouble the BL has making past settings and characters make cohesive sense in the HH...and failing in many cases.

Trying to force a setting in a direction it was never really intended to go usually only leads to heartbreak.

But then GW has also written themselves into a position where they can't really do *anything* with the setting. Settings need to grow and develop, that doesn't mean a linear progression per se, but you need to do something.

In terms of game product, they can't go back very far into 40k's history without effectively axing all the Xeno factions save Eldar/Orks without telling people to play "counts as," and thus being stuck to about a century in late m41, and more often than not, 999M41 specifically, they keep trying to sell us new products which don't hold any real fluff grab. New generic Guard character who dies in the same book they're introduced? Meh, random Chaos warband no one's ever heard of before, because the Traitor Legions are all spoken for? Meh.

Insofar as the vibrancy of the setting is concerned, what exists now isn't much worse than doing going through a cycle of change and ending up, more or less, back where they started. At least we'd see some new characters, stories and developments to occupy our time and imagination, and allow some secondary plots to actually resolve. To go back to the Starwars analogy, sure, the EU basically went in a big circle, but that trip gave us Grand Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon, the Yuuzhang Vong (Ahoy, Starwars Tyranids) amongst others. Sure, not everyone liked the direction the setting went, but at least it gave people something to talk about, and could be ignored freely (lord knows I try to ignore several of the films), and individual story arcs were completed.

Simply put, I can't be excited about the 3rd War for Armaggeddon and the defense of Cadia in the 13th Black Crusade anymore. The universe would no doubt end up going to something resembling the status quo, but at least along the way we could have Yarrick and Ghazzie have their final showdown, have the Tau lose some of their innocence caught betwixt Tyranid, Ork and Ultramarine, and either escalate to a galactic power or crumple into something altogether darker, maybe have Farsight bring a reckoning, have Huron carve out his own piratical empire before, perhaps, finally realizing how far he's fallen and perhaps act as the trump card which finally kills Abbaddon before the 2nd Siege of Terra can conclude, thus bringing things back to status quo, etc, etc.

I just want something to talk about again or be excited about.

 Coldstream wrote:
I'd think the Void Dragon might have something to say about Chaos nuking Mars...

Well the Blackstone Fortresses were built to defeat the Void Dragon and Abaddon has two of them kicking around. The C'tan are basically non-entities in 40k lore now, perfect for a 'big event' with little day-to-day impact. Judging by the End Times in WHFB the company is big on clusterfeth finales so chucking in the Necrons... why not?

As you say 40k is meant to be a timeless Ragnarok however narratives must be spun and I think something can be gotten out of a middle ground between current 40k events where nothing changes at all and the wet dreams of HH fanboys who want the Emperor to return and 'finish' the story. This is the basis for my suggestions, using established but inactive fluff elements (Angron's Monolith, Void Dragon, Thousand Rebellions) and killing off big name characters to provide narrative drive without totally destroying the setting. Abaddon for instance, though cool is basically a Dr. Evil, he is not necessary to the CSM narrative, killing him would be shocking and if done as I suggested or vaguely similar it would remind the fans that the Chaos Gods are not supervillains but fickle gods who do not trifle with mere millennia and certainly do not put all their eggs in one basket. Similarly Dante could die stopping Abaddon from reaching the Emperor, it mirrors his primarch and also feeds into this tidbit from the 5th edition BA Codex:

Recorded in the Scrolls of Sanguinius are the Primarchs visions of a great battle to overshadow all others, where one golden warrior will stand between his Emperor and the darkness. For many generations of the Blood Angels, these prophecies have been read as Sanguinius's foreknowledge of his own fate, yet through some instinct, perhaps a lingering trace of his Primarch's fabled far-seeing eye, Dante believes otherwise. One day, perhaps one day soon, the defence of the Emperor will rest in Dante's hands, and he aims to fulfill this final duty.

All of this is not to say I'm particularly to keen for this stuff, I'd rather have fluff and summer campaigns focusing on single planets and systems like Armageddon and the Badab War that actually make the 40k universe seem bigger by their detail and narrow-focus. However if you would do it my suggestions are designed to show "big" events can happen without burning the entire product to the ground in the process.

The Void Dragon did get shot up by the weapons made to destroy the C'tan and it made him... perhaps just a shard of him, sleepy and quite a bit weakened. Though still strong enough to give a "young" emperor a hell of a fight.

 Jape wrote:
Abaddon for instance, though cool is basically a Dr. Evil, he is not necessary to the CSM narrative, killing him would be shocking and if done as I suggested or vaguely similar it would remind the fans that the Chaos Gods are not supervillains but fickle gods who do not trifle with mere millennia and certainly do not put all their eggs in one basket. Similarly Dante could die stopping Abaddon from reaching the Emperor, it mirrors his primarch...

This could be a direction they could take but who or what would they replace Abaddon with? My big concern is they'd give into the temptation to go for some uber-Abaddon who's even more juiced up on Chaosy-powers and the like ("featuring 25% more Topknot!!!").

Once the floodgates for "story advancement!" opens, it's harder to resist doing it again every time sales lag or people start complaining etc....and what do we do? Well, let's axe this last batch of SM Chapter Masters for new ones and knock off uber-Abaddon and replace him with Mecha-Abaddon!!!! (Especially since GW would helpfully have models to sell to Chaos fanboys)

I guess another comparison to this tendency would be what happened in the world of Professional Wrestling [Pro-wrestling mention on a 40K thread....Nerd achievement: Unlocked!]

When original ECW and the rest of the "hardcore" wrestling type stuff came around and we saw heavy uses of chairs, tables and the like in assorted matches. It works for a while but sooner or later people get numbed to it and they had to go further....well, lets introduce flaming furniture, staplers, light tubes, etc...which again works for a bit, but eventually becomes stale. Rather than relying on good storytelling and quality characters, wrestling went for the easy shock value to create storylines, and, as Jim Cornette will tell you, has really hurt the business.

That's what I would fear would happen with the 40K universe if they attempted to advance the story and make it "MOAR GRIMDARK!!!!"

That will only last for a little while, we'd become accustomed to it and demand more change, so GW kills a bunch more names, steps up the dark...and repeat until eventually GW's only solution is trying to kick the Grimdark up to 11....eventually you'd reach the point where you'd have to ask "How much more Grimdark can this setting be?" And the answer will be "None....none more Grimdark..."


Anyway, I'd have to say since we've got a whole galaxy to play with, the idea of smaller, more focused stories that can bring individual planets or settings along would be a fine thing. Plenty of room for narratives to be created and finished. Heck, if you're bored with what's currently going on, create your own stories and characters! Definitely something that's missing from today's games: making things your own.

I like the ambiguous ending that GW leave, allows all sort of fan-fiction and fluff to flourish.

You can bring the emperor back without it ending everything.

He comes back and ascends to god hood as we all suspect, but he is also in the warp now completely, he is effectively a chaos god, which expands the EoT till it is 5 times the size it is now. The religious nutters of the imperium continue to support him, even through various mutations that befell them (this includes the sisters of battle) including some marine chapters and lots go guard regiments, whilst the other half including the inquisition are against them. So, mass civil war. The chaos gods still fight the emp, including the marines, but they also fight the imperium, and a load of the primarch's come back, bad and good, and all the elder gods of legend, and they all are either out to destroy or support the emp.

An example of this could be Magnus now supporting the Big E, whilst Angron still wanting him dead or Russ supporting the new chaos god as he's an idiot (and a deamon prince of the big E) and the lion opposing him as he isn't an idiot.

They could just go mental with it basically.

 Coldstream wrote:
Once the floodgates for "story advancement!" opens, it's harder to resist doing it again every time sales lag or people start complaining etc....and what do we do? Well, let's axe this last batch of SM Chapter Masters for new ones and knock off uber-Abaddon and replace him with Mecha-Abaddon!!!! (Especially since GW would helpfully have models to sell to Chaos fanboys)

Totally true of course.

Anyway, I'd have to say since we've got a whole galaxy to play with, the idea of smaller, more focused stories that can bring individual planets or settings along would be a fine thing. Plenty of room for narratives to be created and finished. Heck, if you're bored with what's currently going on, create your own stories and characters! Definitely something that's missing from today's games: making things your own.

Amen.

I guess another comparison to this tendency would be what happened in the world of Professional Wrestling [Pro-wrestling mention on a 40K thread....Nerd achievement: Unlocked!

You can bring the emperor back without it ending everything...

Excluding (most of) the material universe, everything you just said puts big massive shivs into 40k

If dead Primarchs come back, and Sanguinious does, would the Blood Angels be so happy the nightmares are over
they would pee their pants or would their heads explode?

 ciaotym wrote:
If dead Primarchs come back, and Sanguinious does, would the Blood Angels be so happy the nightmares are over
they would pee their pants or would their heads explode?

Both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW advance the story line. It just happens slowly. Like in 6-th (...or 7-th) ed fluff Abaddon actually manages to take enough Cadian ground to launch a full-scale crussade for Terra. Ghazzy comes up with an idea of a mega-waaaagh uniting every single ork in the galaxy and is actively doing it - not just fighting for a single sector in Armageddon wars. Emps is getting worse.

See, it's actually advancement - just some slow one that doesn't change much for gameplay. And it's good imo. People are still interested in what's there allready. And by rapid advancement GW can easilly screw things up. Such things must take pace.

Also, take note that the vast ammount of tabletop WH40k current fandom is rather conservative and doesn't want any significant changes cause we're old farts.

We finally got something unique in fantasy and the 40k guys need to have it. Don't you have enough storyline?!

Back off fantasy's' goods!

mrgarm13 wrote:
I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

This. Holy crap this please

Not even the Emperor can resurrect Horus.

mrgarm13 wrote:
I would look forward to just an advancement of the timeline to wrap up character stories and introduce new ones. (I have the same feelings towards comics.)

Alright, a vision of 40K end times.

Ghazkull Un Thraka forms the largest Waaaggh in history, his rivals are beaten into submission or rally to his banner.

Ahriman finally finds the Black Library and absorbs it's knowledge, leaving a burning shell in his wake.

Abbadon see's the Un Thraka's Waaaggh is heading to Terra. Reports of a Tyranid fleet approaching Terra reach him as well. The Emperor is his to kill and his alone. Bargaining with the newly empowered Ahriman and the Chaos Gods Abbadon launches one last Black Crusade.

The Chaos fleet comes out of the warp in Ghazkulls path. The two fleet's battle while Abbadon leads a boarding action on Ghazkulls rok, hoping to decapitate the Waaagh. He reaches the throne room of the mighty Ork Warlord. Terminators clash with Nobs, the sounds of power claws and bolters are but a din to Abbadon and Ghazkull as the two clash in personal combat. Finally though, Abbadon over powers the Ork and cleaves him in two. A hasty retreat is called as the Orks fall upon each other to lead the Waaagh!

The Imperium had been hastily assembling warships and forces to Terra in preparation. Even with more ships arriving strategists worry that it won't be enough. Suddenly Eldar fleets arrive offering aid. Can Holy Terra be defiled by the presence of aliens? Desperate times force the Imperium to allow the Eldar to assist.

Abbadon and his fleet emerge from the Warp above Terra. As ships move to engage, Ahriman uses his new magics to create a warp storm, isolating the planet.

(2nd Siege of Terra)

Abbadon manages to get to the steps of the Golden Throne. Dante blocks his path. The two duel but finally Abbadon stabs Dante through the breast plate, killing him. Abbadon smiles as victory is finally his but he hears multiple footsteps on the stairs. He looks up and screams in horror for standing there is the Emperor whole, with Horus at his side. Abbadon snaps and attacks. Horus deflects Abbadon's wild swings, making it obvious to all in attendance that Abbadon is out matched. Finally, Horus snaps Abbadon's neck and watches the life flow out of him.

Ahriman becomes a gibbering wreck from having all that power in him. The Warp Storms subside and the Chaos forces are forced to retreat for a second time from Terra. So the Imperium began, so the Imperium ended.

I thought about that in class and on the way home. Just a thought on how an End Times 40K would work.

But doing the small campaigns work too. Either way.

The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Weren't the clones mentally unstable and insane though? And not in the way that Kharn is insane, talking jibbering wreck of a man insane due to not having the connection of a soul/presence in the warp.

Abbaddon did not best a Horus in his prime, or just one without combat experience, he essentially defeated a 10 ft man with the mental age of a 3 year old irish setter.

I had my own version of end times a bit ago. I can't find the exact post, so I'll try and re-create it.

The 13th (or whatever) crusade is successful (ish), with the forces of chaos managing to take most, if not all, of Terra. The light of the astronomipolytechnoconicom disrupted, warp travel and communication is massively disrupted. The imperium is thrown into disarray, a point taken to full advantage by their foes. The Tau empire seizes the initiative, beginning the fourth sphere of expansion, attacking the now weakened imperial planets of the galactic east. The Eldar, with their own secret plans, start capturing world and attacking outposts with no fathomable reason, at least for humans. A great WAAAGH rises, led by the infamous Grazzgul Thraka. Dark Eldar raids increase, and the Necron dynasties continue to slowly wake up. New invasions of the forces of chaos spring up. The Tyranids continue to advance. Can those leaders in the Imperium that still survive, stop the oncoming enemies, and re-take Holy Terra from the vile hand of chaos, or is this the end of the Imperium as we know it?

Can those leaders in the Imperium that still survive, stop the oncoming enemies, and re-take Holy Terra from the vile hand of chaos, or is this the end of the Imperium as we know it?

No, and in the scenario described, the Imperium as we know it has already ended. This is an end of the faction entirely.

 Psienesis wrote:

Can those leaders in the Imperium that still survive, stop the oncoming enemies, and re-take Holy Terra from the vile hand of chaos, or is this the end of the Imperium as we know it?

No, and in the scenario described, the Imperium as we know it has already ended. This is an end of the faction entirely.

Not necessarily, the re-capturing of Terra, the re-birth of the empy, ect, ect.

Isn't going to happen without the Astronomican or Mars. Lacking the first means "local jumps only" for every Warp-capable ship in the Imperium. This means that Hive Worlds starve, trade grinds to a halt, and things fall rapidly apart inside of a year.

It also means entire systems lost to Daemonic Incursion when the Black Ships can no longer collect the Psyker Tithe, and the weakest amongst them fall prey to the whispering sentiences of the Warp, and are Patient Zero for mass daemonic possessions. Without the ability for the Grey Knights to go anywhere, there is nothing to stop the Daemons from simply taking over entire worlds.

Once that happens, places like Ultramar go into "lockdown" mode. While places such as this will likely be able to handle their own Psykers (by killing them), they can't really go anywhere. Lacking the Astronomican means that any Imperial counter-attack is going to arrive in the Sol System piecemeal and scattered.... easy pickings for any Chaos Fleet sitting in the system.

I added the Horus thing because Abbadon is Chaos. And being Chaos requires that "Twilight Zone" ironic twist at the end of his story.

I also would have added that Cypher finally finishes what ever the hell he's doing but that would be like the 6th special character in the same area.

The Horus issue... I didn't realize that he had been so completely destroyed. But it would be Emperor 2.0. Or I am stomping on the seed of a good idea?

I always wonder about how the Chaos Gods can resurrect people. What happens if they come across Old Zogwart and get turned into a squig? Does the soul belong to Gork (or possibly Mork)? Maybe Horus repented in the last half second of sanity (Lexicanum) and simply waited for the Emperor to resurrect him? (I'm taking huge leaps but damn it, it's the end times. Weird stuff is supposed to happen.)

I think 40K could use some hope in it for humanity. There's only so many times you can play "The Heroic Last Stand" game after reading the fluff for the game.

If we insist on an "End Time" I'd suggest that GW bring back Malal/Malice (or GW's new equivalent with helpfully expensive model ready for sale).

Have Malice manifest itself and the Sons of Malice in the midst of Abaddon's latest Black Crusade attacking the Black Legion and all the other CSMs. Malice could even be the reason the Black Crusade fails.

This would better reflect the capriciousness of what Chaos truly is, rather than just the "cool" evil supervillains on the cusp of success that they've turned into these days. Too many of the "End Times" ideas complain that the setting has become too "Good vs Evil" but then propose stories that simply mean the Evil side wins.

If you're going to have Chaos, have Chaos.

Show this silly Abaddon and his ilk that think Chaos really cares about their petty jealousies and impotent rage what it's really all about.

mrgarm13 wrote:
I added the Horus thing because Abbadon is Chaos. And being Chaos requires that "Twilight Zone" ironic twist at the end of his story.

I also would have added that Cypher finally finishes what ever the hell he's doing but that would be like the 6th special character in the same area.

The Horus issue... I didn't realize that he had been so completely destroyed. But it would be Emperor 2.0. Or I am stomping on the seed of a good idea?

I always wonder about how the Chaos Gods can resurrect people. What happens if they come across Old Zogwart and get turned into a squig? Does the soul belong to Gork (or possibly Mork)? Maybe Horus repented in the last half second of sanity (Lexicanum) and simply waited for the Emperor to resurrect him? (I'm taking huge leaps but damn it, it's the end times. Weird stuff is supposed to happen.)

I think 40K could use some hope in it for humanity. There's only so many times you can play "The Heroic Last Stand" game after reading the fluff for the game.

All souls go into the Warp upon death. If the Chaos Gods want to resurrect someone, they just snag that soul, snap their tentacles to create a new body, and shove that soul into it. Viola!

... Except Horus. The Emperor killed him so hard his soul disintegrated and was utterly, completely destroyed.

This thread has just cemented my opinion that 40K 'end times' should not happen. Most of these ideas here would utterly ruin the setting. I'd not oppose Armageddon style great but local incidents, or even Chaos making some major gains (40K Chaos seems a bit toothless) but nothing like taking Terra. And there absolutely should be no big, shiny, superheroes returning to save the day. That would be the worst.

 Coldstream wrote:
If we insist on an "End Time" I'd suggest that GW bring back Malal/Malice (or GW's new equivalent with helpfully expensive model ready for sale).

Have Malice manifest itself and the Sons of Malice in the midst of Abaddon's latest Black Crusade attacking the Black Legion and all the other CSMs. Malice could even be the reason the Black Crusade fails.

This would better reflect the capriciousness of what Chaos truly is, rather than just the "cool" evil supervillains on the cusp of success that they've turned into these days. Too many of the "End Times" ideas complain that the setting has become too "Good vs Evil" but then propose stories that simply mean the Evil side wins.

If you're going to have Chaos, have Chaos.

Show this silly Abaddon and his ilk that think Chaos really cares about their petty jealousies and impotent rage what it's really all about.

Cusp of success after being the equivalent of Ork Fodder for the longest time seems rather funny.

I wouldn't mind the return of a couple primarchs, from both sides.

I figure it will give the table top bad ass showdown type battles I.E. Mortarion vs Russ

If it's the End Times, then it ends during that time.

Unless the Warhammer Fantasy world is going to be swallowed by Chaos (or whatever) and there will be NO MORE GAMES of Fantasy, it's not the End Times. It's hyperbolic branding.

I don't want hyperbolic branding for 40K, any more than I wanted it for Fantasy. I'm not sure why GW (and, evidently, a lot of the fanbase) seem to think that the only two options are stagnation and massive, dislocating change. It's unrealistic for Fantasy (none of these things came to a head in the last thousand years?) and it's even more preposterous in 40K--you have a whole freaking galaxy, and, heck, aliens that seem to be invading from ANOTHER one.

I would like to see some change and development in 40K, but I don't want to see everything rapidly altered in six months of publishing.

I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that something interesting happened in the ten thousand years between the Horus Heresy and M40.999. Could we see some stuff that happened, say, near the beginning of the 41st millennium? One of my favorite moments in 40K was when Ravenor, who had no idea what they were, witnessed the Tyranids during some time travel. I didn't like that for the scene itself (which was fine). I loved it for reminding me of the the fact that it was still strongly, emphatically, 40K in those novels, but they entirely preceded the Tyranid menace (as least, as far as anyone in them knew).

 Crimson wrote:
GW has already ruined my favourite FB faction (the Empire) by introducing stupid demi-god Emperor, I really do not need that in 40K.

Wait, what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RileyJessup wrote:
I hope that this happens the return of the pirmarchs would be awesome, same with hopefully some way to finally destroy chaos and the tyranid threat across the galaxy, orks become pirates basically because they get caught in the crossfire but can never actually be completely destroyed cause spores, most necrons get destroyed, and an uneasy alliance ensues between the tau, eldar, and imperium. And hopefully alot of imperial mercenary split offs to introduce some new cool models. Anyway thats just my take of what i think should happen cheers!

That is not Grimdark at all.

Wasn't the fantasy end times set in an alternate dimension? If they could do that, I wouldn't mind.

The kid in me who likes massive battles is cheering this on.

The adult in me is afraid it might be too boring.

Da Butcha wrote:

I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that something interesting happened in the ten thousand years between the Horus Heresy and M40.999. Could we see some stuff that happened, say, near the beginning of the 41st millennium? One of my favorite moments in 40K was when Ravenor, who had no idea what they were, witnessed the Tyranids during some time travel. I didn't like that for the scene itself (which was fine). I loved it for reminding me of the the fact that it was still strongly, emphatically, 40K in those novels, but they entirely preceded the Tyranid menace (as least, as far as anyone in them knew).

There are a couple of events: The Age of Apostasy, Nova Terra, Pale Wasting, Badab War, Macharian Crusade, Abyssal Crusade, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Siege of Vraks, all 3 wars for Armageddon.

See? Nothing that game changing, but still quite interesting.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:

I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that something interesting happened in the ten thousand years between the Horus Heresy and M40.999. Could we see some stuff that happened, say, near the beginning of the 41st millennium? One of my favorite moments in 40K was when Ravenor, who had no idea what they were, witnessed the Tyranids during some time travel. I didn't like that for the scene itself (which was fine). I loved it for reminding me of the the fact that it was still strongly, emphatically, 40K in those novels, but they entirely preceded the Tyranid menace (as least, as far as anyone in them knew).

There are a couple of events: The Age of Apostasy, Nova Terra, Pale Wasting, Badab War, Macharian Crusade, Abyssal Crusade, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Siege of Vraks, all 3 wars for Armageddon.

See? Nothing that game changing, but still quite interesting.

Even then, I'll also add to this saying that the much smaller conflicts can be interesting. Look at the Dawn of War games. The entire storyline of DOW 2 (including expansions) only took place in one sector, but still felt sort of large.

There are many interesting events. They're just not always the big ones.

 SkavenLord wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:

I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that something interesting happened in the ten thousand years between the Horus Heresy and M40.999. Could we see some stuff that happened, say, near the beginning of the 41st millennium? One of my favorite moments in 40K was when Ravenor, who had no idea what they were, witnessed the Tyranids during some time travel. I didn't like that for the scene itself (which was fine). I loved it for reminding me of the the fact that it was still strongly, emphatically, 40K in those novels, but they entirely preceded the Tyranid menace (as least, as far as anyone in them knew).

There are a couple of events: The Age of Apostasy, Nova Terra, Pale Wasting, Badab War, Macharian Crusade, Abyssal Crusade, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Siege of Vraks, all 3 wars for Armageddon.

See? Nothing that game changing, but still quite interesting.

In all those events listed, the Necrons, Tyranids, and Tau are absent and their players would be barred from participating in these historic events. Only the 3rd War for Armageddon occurs during a time when these factions are active, and that war was Imperium vs. Orks.

None of these factions became active til the very end of M41. If GW were to restrict their focus to only past historical events, these factions (and those players that play them) would be left neglected indefinitely.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
White Wolf finally, after several incarnations of their 'near apocalyptic' World of Darkness themed games, staged a full and total End Times.

Shortly thereafter the company ceased to exist.

Are you saying that bringing up an "End Times" will actually lead to an end time for a company?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

 SkavenLord wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:

I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that something interesting happened in the ten thousand years between the Horus Heresy and M40.999. Could we see some stuff that happened, say, near the beginning of the 41st millennium? One of my favorite moments in 40K was when Ravenor, who had no idea what they were, witnessed the Tyranids during some time travel. I didn't like that for the scene itself (which was fine). I loved it for reminding me of the the fact that it was still strongly, emphatically, 40K in those novels, but they entirely preceded the Tyranid menace (as least, as far as anyone in them knew).

There are a couple of events: The Age of Apostasy, Nova Terra, Pale Wasting, Badab War, Macharian Crusade, Abyssal Crusade, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Siege of Vraks, all 3 wars for Armageddon.

See? Nothing that game changing, but still quite interesting.

In all those events listed, the Necrons, Tyranids, and Tau are absent and their players would be barred from participating in these historic events. Only the 3rd War for Armageddon occurs during a time when these factions are active, and that war was Imperium vs. Orks.

None of these factions became active til the very end of M41. If GW were to restrict their focus to only past historical events, these factions (and those players that play them) would be left neglected indefinitely.

40k is always very Imperio-centric anyway. The Tyranids have already had two near-apocalyptic invasions prior to 999. The Tau and Necrons have always been rather low-key, until FE came out.

Perhaps the new Necron dex might change things.

Iracundus wrote:

In all those events listed, the Necrons, Tyranids, and Tau are absent and their players would be barred from participating in these historic events.

It was a mistake on GWs part to make those factions such late arrivals.

 Coldstream wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Was with you all they until The Big E was stood up all of a sudden, and he had Horus beside him, who isn't just dead, dude is like DEAD dead...

Well, he got better.

What if Horus had succeeded in killing Big E, but was mortally wounded, so he switched his armour, resulting in Dorn mistakenly placing him on the Golden Throne, and thereby resulting in the greatest practical joke upon the Imperium?

Maximus Bitch wrote:

There are a couple of events: The Age of Apostasy, Nova Terra, Pale Wasting, Badab War, Macharian Crusade, Abyssal Crusade, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Siege of Vraks, all 3 wars for Armageddon.

See? Nothing that game changing, but still quite interesting.

New events on that scale would be perfectly OK. You can have an interesting campaign without destroying the setting.

.... Necrons, Tau, Sisters of Battle, and Tyranids are also not permitted in Heresy-era battles, and yet that doesn't seem to stop anyone from playing such games, nor does it seem to cause many chapped asses amongst the fanbase.

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons, Tau, Sisters of Battle, and Tyranids are also not permitted in Heresy-era battles, and yet that doesn't seem to stop anyone from playing such games, nor does it seem to cause many chapped asses amongst the fanbase.

Speak for yourself. There are some local players here who play Tau, Tyranids, and Necrons who hate the Heresy-era Marinefest focus from FW for precisely that reason.

Now take that and imagine if GW would only focus exclusively on the past and effectively bar these factions forever from any participation or new development. Sure you can have some development of the past but to dwell purely on the past is just going to alienate entire segments of customers, and GW financials aren't in such a dazzling state that they can go around doing that.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
White Wolf finally, after several incarnations of their 'near apocalyptic' World of Darkness themed games, staged a full and total End Times.

Shortly thereafter the company ceased to exist.

Only if you ignore every other financial problem they had before then.

Though at this rate CCP will be killing them off again with their horrific practices.

I'd prefer an alternate - call it "Visions of the End". A series of "what ifs" dredged from the Black Library, penned by the greatest Farseer of the Eldar. Each book is a vision of which way the Runes of Fate may fall. It pits you in a 12-tiered battle branched campaign as the ultimate lord of one of the two main races in each book, or one of the lesser allies attempting to ensure the survival of your race. The result of each battle swings the balance of fate of each closer towards doom or salvation. Each victory brings the winner closer to his goal, but breeds greater and greater desperation to the loser.

Book 1 - The End of Man: Chaos returns to the homeworld led by Abbadon; as the battle rages on Terra the fate of the Emperor is decided - will the worship of the Emperor dictate he be reborn whole to fend off the legions or will he succumb to become yet another God of Chaos?

Book 2 - Doom of the Eldar: Slaneesh is calling. Through the century it has hunted the Eldar and now it can contain its hunger no longer. The Dark Eldar have unwittingly fallen to the wiles of Slaneesh, and if it has its way it will slake its thirst on both races - and any that fall between it and its prey.

Book 3 - The Devoured Universe: The main thrust of the Tyranid Hive Fleet reaches the galaxy. The Necrons are fully awake; they refuse to allow the universe to fall before they reconquer it. C'tan shards battle Norn Queens and the true terror of both races unfolds as the rest of the galaxy is drawn into the battle.

Book 4 - The Green Tide: Ghazgul unearths an astonishing weapon of the Elder Gods; a weapon that transforms the already war-like race into a savage, murderous Waaagh! The Tau, the last secret ploy of the Elder Gods possess the only secret to stop Ghazguul's reign of terror - if they can unlock the secrets buried away in their racial genes - a secret hidden in the origin of the traitorous Farsight Enclave.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

Considering that Fabius Bile was trained by the greatest of all Dark Eldar Homenculus, who tend to cheat death/create fully living clones with an almost alarming rate of regularity, and that the Emperor would never stoop down to asking something akin to that for answers on how to recreate the Primarchs tends to create paths that others wouldn't take.

There's also the fact that it's a Clone, considering that the things to create the Primarchs the first time likely took far more effort I figure.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

Fabius created a perfect clone of Horus and abbadon did'nt beat it in combat.

... Horus' soul is gone, folks. History. Obliterated. Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Franchise-Again. He got killed so hard by the Emperor that his soul disintegrated into nothingness. Not even the Chaos Gods can bring him back.

So clone him all you want. It's still not Horus.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd prefer an alternate - call it "Visions of the End". A series of "what ifs" dredged from the Black Library, penned by the greatest Farseer of the Eldar. Each book is a vision of which way the Runes of Fate may fall. It pits you in a 12-tiered battle branched campaign as the ultimate lord of one of the two main races in each book, or one of the lesser allies attempting to ensure the survival of your race. The result of each battle swings the balance of fate of each closer towards doom or salvation. Each victory brings the winner closer to his goal, but breeds greater and greater desperation to the loser.

Book 1 - The End of Man: Chaos returns to the homeworld led by Abbadon; as the battle rages on Terra the fate of the Emperor is decided - will the worship of the Emperor dictate he be reborn whole to fend off the legions or will he succumb to become yet another God of Chaos?

Book 2 - Doom of the Eldar: Slaneesh is calling. Through the century it has hunted the Eldar and now it can contain its hunger no longer. The Dark Eldar have unwittingly fallen to the wiles of Slaneesh, and if it has its way it will slake its thirst on both races - and any that fall between it and its prey.

Book 3 - The Devoured Universe: The main thrust of the Tyranid Hive Fleet reaches the galaxy. The Necrons are fully awake; they refuse to allow the universe to fall before they reconquer it. C'tan shards battle Norn Queens and the true terror of both races unfolds as the rest of the galaxy is drawn into the battle.

Book 4 - The Green Tide: Ghazgul unearths an astonishing weapon of the Elder Gods; a weapon that transforms the already war-like race into a savage, murderous Waaagh! The Tau, the last secret ploy of the Elder Gods possess the only secret to stop Ghazguul's reign of terror - if they can unlock the secrets buried away in their racial genes - a secret hidden in the origin of the traitorous Farsight Enclave.

Can this be a thing? It allows massive plot advancements, while still allowing the game as it stands to function.

Though personally, I wouldn't mind the Hrud, Squats, and various other fluff-only factions coming in if they focus on past events.... Give me my Hrud!

The more I think about it, the more I want an end times. Bring it on!

Cool to have russ and the thirteenth company come back and magnus to repent and fight together agent chaos on terra. Sanguineous and gulliman to rise and other lost primarchs to come back with genetic material bring back legions and face off against daemon primarchs.

Why would Magnus repent? He was loyal until Russ set his planet on fire.

If they do it like WHFB, DE and CWE part of the same detachmemt, PFP and BF for everybody!

hopefully not.

...the Eldar factions are already Battle-Brothers, arent they?

 Psienesis wrote:
Why would Magnus repent? He was loyal until Russ set his planet on fire.

I have always liked the idea that Russ realized how terribly stupid his actions during the heresy were & went to the EoT to apologize to Magnus & bring him back. Horribly not canon but with how much of 40ks canon runs off of 'shhhh, forge the narrative harder' it really doesn't feel as ridiculous as it otherwise would be.

Russ? Realize he's being a bone-head? Heresy!

Magnus, since that time, has directly attacked Fenris (and apparently forgot that he can crack planets with his mind from orbit) and thrown away much of the remaining Thousand Sons in so doing.

He's also now a Daemon Prince. That's not really something that one stops being.

Magnus hasn't done much of anything. TS warbands are operating independently of him, and have since Ahriman cast his rubric

It's far more likely to see Ahriman stand against Chaos in some final battle; his character has always held that underlying resentment of Tzeentch's manipulation of him and his legion. My own headcanon has him seeing a way to undo the damage of both his own Rubric and Tzeentch, and he won't let anything stand in his way; Imperial, Eldar, Chaos or even his own Primarch.

Not that he's a nice guy by any stretch of the imagination, but in some kind of end times scenario, I can see him quite happily stabbing Abaddon in the back, giving Tzeentch the finger and carving out a domain for himself once the dust settles.

 TranSpyre wrote:
Magnus hasn't done much of anything. TS warbands are operating independently of him, and have since Ahriman cast his rubric

He broke Frenris at the Fang, so that's close enough to doing stuff. The Space Wolves were crippled thanks to his actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
It's far more likely to see Ahriman stand against Chaos in some final battle; his character has always held that underlying resentment of Tzeentch's manipulation of him and his legion. My own headcanon has him seeing a way to undo the damage of both his own Rubric and Tzeentch, and he won't let anything stand in his way; Imperial, Eldar, Chaos or even his own Primarch.

Not that he's a nice guy by any stretch of the imagination, but in some kind of end times scenario, I can see him quite happily stabbing Abaddon in the back, giving Tzeentch the finger and carving out a domain for himself once the dust settles.

Do I smell a 40k Tomb Kings faction with Space Nagash?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

becauee he's Fabius Bile. He also creates several clones of Ferrus Manus during the heresy. And yes the clone,chile not having the combat experience of Horus, is still intelligent and killed a company of Rubricae before Abaddon stepped in.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

becauee he's Fabius Bile. He also creates several clones of Ferrus Manus during the heresy. And yes the clone,chile not having the combat experience of Horus, is still intelligent and killed a company of Rubricae before Abaddon stepped in.

It doesn't matter, it still needs the soul of the Primarch, as the Primarchs are creations of the Warp, not flesh. Which also explains how Abaddon went toe to toe with one and won.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

becauee he's Fabius Bile. He also creates several clones of Ferrus Manus during the heresy. And yes the clone,chile not having the combat experience of Horus, is still intelligent and killed a company of Rubricae before Abaddon stepped in.

It doesn't matter, it still needs the soul of the Primarch, as the Primarchs are creations of the Warp, not flesh. Which also explains how Abaddon went toe to toe with one and won.

*Citation Needed*

The Emperor used Arcane Science and Forbidden Lore, not literal Warp. They are genetic (Flesh) made from the Emperor.

There will not be an End Times for 40K, as the Horus Heresy expansions are the equal of such as the End Times. There is too much in 40k that could be stuffed up, which is why they are expanding on an already silent 'campaign' already established in the fluff.

 traonis wrote:
There will not be an End Times for 40K, as the Horus Heresy expansions are the equal of such as the End Times. There is too much in 40k that could be stuffed up, which is why they are expanding on an already silent 'campaign' already established in the fluff.

Just because there is alot they could stuff up, doesn't mean they wont do an End Times for 40k. You seem very sure of the fact they wont do one, though I am sure alot of people would have said the same thing about Fantasy not long ago.

Would it make GW money? Would it prompt people to buy expensive resin Primarch models from Forge World? Could they create new gigantic plastic kits that they could sell for huge amounts (and if you didn't buy them you couldn't really compete or play the "new" game)?

Oh.

Well, then, yes, I think they will do it.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Would it make GW money? Would it prompt people to buy expensive resin Primarch models from Forge World? Could they create new gigantic plastic kits that they could sell for huge amounts (and if you didn't buy them you couldn't really compete or play the "new" game)?

Oh.

Well, then, yes, I think they will do it.

I would sell my firstborn to get my hands on a Mortarion model if he became useable in 40k.
Games Workshop would stand to make a lot of money if there was an End Times

 TranSpyre wrote:
Magnus hasn't done much of anything. TS warbands are operating independently of him, and have since Ahriman cast his rubric

Battle of the Fang? Magnus showed up personally to kill the Space Wolves.

Failed, of course, because GW forgot that he was a psyker of god-like power, but, then, they couldn't have the Wolves lose, now, could they?

 Psienesis wrote:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Magnus hasn't done much of anything. TS warbands are operating independently of him, and have since Ahriman cast his rubric

Battle of the Fang? Magnus showed up personally to kill the Space Wolves.

Failed, of course, because GW forgot that he was a psyker of god-like power, but, then, they couldn't have the Wolves lose, now, could they?

I wouldn't call it a failure. Magnus failed to destroy them, but he crippled their leadership by physically ripping apart their command and obliterated their research project to create stable Space Wolf gene-seed so they could create successors.

"Secondary Objective achieved" is still failure to attain the Primary Mission, which was to wipe out the Space Wolves, destroy the Fang, and avenge Prospero.

I wish for the Primarchs that are still alive to come back!

End Times for 40k has been great. GW has managed to rejuvenate the entire franchise of Fantasy with theirs, and the stories have been genuinely entertaining. 40k feels obsolete and boring by comparison.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The problem with that is that Abaddon beat Horus' Clone in single combat. While the clone wouldn't have had the combat experience that the real Horus had it's still impressive and this is before abaddon obtained Drach'nyen.

Even the Emperor couldn't recreate the Primarchs after he lost them the first time, so how would a clone made by Fabius Bile be equal to the real Horus?

becauee he's Fabius Bile. He also creates several clones of Ferrus Manus during the heresy. And yes the clone,chile not having the combat experience of Horus, is still intelligent and killed a company of Rubricae before Abaddon stepped in.

It doesn't matter, it still needs the soul of the Primarch, as the Primarchs are creations of the Warp, not flesh. Which also explains how Abaddon went toe to toe with one and won.

*Citation Needed*

The Emperor used Arcane Science and Forbidden Lore, not literal Warp. They are genetic (Flesh) made from the Emperor.

agreed not "literal" warp, but the warp was 100% used in there creation as for citation, fulgrim was a floating ball of energy when he landed on chemos... good enough.

 Harriticus wrote:
End Times for 40k has been great. GW has managed to rejuvenate the entire franchise of Fantasy with theirs, and the stories have been genuinely entertaining. 40k feels obsolete and boring by comparison.

I agree with this statement. Time to make 40k storyline exciting with some big change ups!

http://nblo.gs/11OrFx

Well.

Apparently 'yall are psychic, because GW might be making an End of Times for 40k with McNeil (F***) writing it.

I think it would be cool if they had an non-Imperial sector for us to diddle around with as a special campaign series. It would give them a reason to release Xenos ruins.

 Wyzilla wrote:
http://nblo.gs/11OrFx

Well.

Apparently 'yall are psychic, because GW might be making an End of Times for 40k with McNeil (F***) writing it.

total and utter crap, don't believe it for a second, guilliman coming back, mcniel writing it, sounds like troll bait to me

 Wyzilla wrote:
http://nblo.gs/11OrFx

Well.

Apparently 'yall are psychic, because GW might be making an End of Times for 40k with McNeil (F***) writing it.

This is interesting to me because it cites a recent Weekender. I was in Nottingham in July and the "sages on the stage" explicitly stated that there were "no plans to carry the storyline forward." Specific references were made to resolving key storylines, like the DA catching Cypher, the BA solving their Flaw, etc.

BUT that doesn't discount this possibility. Again, as I've pointed out, it is in the recent DA fluff that they revealed that the Lion was "deep in the Rock" waiting for some End Times event to rouse him. Bringing back some Primarchs does not necessarily mean that these (above) storylines or other equivalents would need to be resolved, but it would allow for a fleshing out of some of these bits of fluff that are very exciting to me personally.

Just imagine the possibilities of Daemon Prince Primarch models! Not to mention the return of the "non dead" Loyalist Primarchs, no few of them who have clearly been "set up" in the fluff with a possibility to return.

Guilliman: in Stasis
The Lion: Sleeping in the Rock, waiting to be needed
Russ: Off gallivanting around in the Eye? But prophesied to return
Corax: Somewhere out there?
The Khan: Not dead...somewhere in DE custody?
Vulkan: Possibly "not dead"...in Necron custody?

So...I think they've been setting it up in the fluff.

Also, Rogal Dorn is probably alive as well. The 6th edition retcons Rogal's skeleton to just being a hand owned by the Imperial Fists Chapter. Dorn's just MIA.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Sanguinor turned out to be Sanguinius or some reincarnation of him.

Graham McNeill is not, as far as I am aware, still working for the design team, he's a novel writer. There's also nothing on his blog about it.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
http://nblo.gs/11OrFx

Well.

Apparently 'yall are psychic, because GW might be making an End of Times for 40k with McNeil (F***) writing it.

This is interesting to me because it cites a recent Weekender. I was in Nottingham in July and the "sages on the stage" explicitly stated that there were "no plans to carry the storyline forward." Specific references were made to resolving key storylines, like the DA catching Cypher, the BA solving their Flaw, etc.

BUT that doesn't discount this possibility. Again, as I've pointed out, it is in the recent DA fluff that they revealed that the Lion was "deep in the Rock" waiting for some End Times event to rouse him.

That is not recent fluff. The Lion has been known to be deep in the Rock by readers since 2nd edition, as it was revealed in the Angels of Death Codex. However it was written from an out of universe omniscient viewpoint, and it even states that no one save possibly the Emperor knows the Lion is there, and the Emperor is not communicating.

All I'm saying is that it's current (perhaps recent was not the best word). There's a lot from 2nd edition (like the Dorn factoid above) that's been ret-conned. In any case, I think they are clearly laying the seeds...whether they do this soon or not is not clear but I think the possibility has to be being considered.

Edit:

Not a direct answer, but more than good enough:

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

Ah well...
I personally believe that this would have made a perfect end of times scenario, with the Imperium attampting to construct this and several of the Primarchs returning.
Maybe Malcador himself could reincarnate and fix the Adeptus Terra, single-handedly doing more good for the Imperium as a whole since the Great Crusade

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_ship_moves

Wait, so people are voting FOR more retconning, more characters being removed from the game, all Eldar (Dark, Craft, etc), imperium being shoved into one book, chaos being condensed, etc?!

That'd be what happened in Warhammer... I can't see the end result being popular at all.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wait, so people are voting FOR more retconning, more characters being removed from the game, all Eldar (Dark, Craft, etc), imperium being shoved into one book, chaos being condensed, etc?!

That'd be what happened in Warhammer... I can't see the end result being popular at all.

I hate to be the one to voice this, though I don't think retconning is always a bad thing. Plus they wouldn't have to Retcon if they are moving forward.
If it was like end times fantasy (which is different as they didn't have an allies system like 40k) we would see new formations of for example Eldar and Dark Eldar, not them being condensed in to one book.
Killing old characters, but raising new heroes is a great to way to breath fresh air in to a series. Especially when people like dead Tycho are still fieldable.

About time they advanced the story

Advancing the story, even marginally would allow for new characters and equipment.

I don't see why they could just do a "trousers of time" thing. Just a story-line based on a possible outcome. Two universes, split at a single point.

Now a campaign system that let you play out the last epic clashes of the rebirth/destruction of the Imperium... I'd get behind that

Well, there's a difference to making an "End Times" of 40K, and smiply making a similar campaign for 40K.

When people talk against an End Time for the 40K universe, they assume that things and people are supposed to die and be removed, and sure, if the fluff goes forward, that'll happen, becuase this is a motherzoggingly dangerous galaxy, and most famous characters are in military in some ways or other - BUT. There's no reason to throw the galaxy all the way into the prophecied time with a dying Imperium and just kill things off, as there's no reason to flat out undo what we have. That would make no sense. It would make sense, however, to show us what the "brink" look like in this universe. I know we're actually at the brink of the universe right now, but that's where we've been for a good 20 years now, so it doesn't seem like it anymore.

We still hear about the powers of the galaxy not being at their fullest. The Imperium are actually the only ones who are at full capacity at this time, with pretty much every other faction being mentioned to be "powering up" for the great fight of all existance, which just goes to show how unbelievably screwed the Imperium are, and how much of a popped zit they are gonna be when the others get moving.The Chaos Marines have the power, but are too dispersed to be a true fright, which Abbadon is trying to undo. The Eldar aren't really powerful at all, but are trying to fight their own arrogance so they might actually work together. Tau actually powered down recently, but they have the power - The only thing they need are an incencive to go into it with all their strength. The Necrons are still trying to wake themselves up, which sound bad when you aren't remembering that none of them like the others as leaders. The Tyranids are only just going into the galaxy and are stopped every time, because they are nothing but tendrils... See what I mean?

I don't just want people to die and the races to go away, that's what Fantasy does, and it works for them, which is properbly because their players are a bit more mature, but whatever: I do want the factions to advance a bit, however - Maybe Abbadon taking Cadia and moving his Black Crusade towards (but not all the way to) Terra, some really major Tyranids forces arriving, Tau realising what the feth is going in in the galaxy and gearing up to save it (for themselves, of course), Necrons doing something, that sorta stuff. Why do I want it? because it forces the factions and characters within them to evolve and learn. The Imperium is still racistic, fascistic and nationalistic, but when all hell is being roused around you and they all want a bite of you, can you really afford to keep up all the mindless rivalries you have? If someone, like the Eldar or Tau comes along to save you, are you gonna reject them, even though it means your destruction?

In fact, what an End Time could do isn't just destruction and change for the sake of those two things - It's the opportunity for characters and factions developing. Right now there's an excess of characters in the universe who I can have no relation to, because they never did anything of mention - The biggest achievement available is killing an Avatar, as they are a sort of HQ, who doesn't need to survive to allow the faction to survive. If the characters in the game are supposed to make me want to play them, they gotta have to do something of note, like having a rivalry with another character, having killed another or simply being important to the fluff, and an End Time can do. Examples:

Abbadon imprisons, or maybe outright kills Creed and take Cadia with the largest Chaos force assembled since the Heresy - What will the Chaos Gods now do with Abbadon? How does the world react? What does Abbadon become, now that he is the first and only Warmaster to actually threat the Imperium since Horus? Who are to stop him, and will that "who" ever be released from the eternal torment of the Warp he's in now? (That was my subjective opinion on the matter, if you didn't notice.)
Tyranids retake a weakened Ultramar, and the Swarmlord manages to kill Calgar and the Ultramarines chapter with succesors are left ruined and on the retreat, with a severely humbled Sicarus being the defacto leader of the tattered bunch - Can he grow with the job? And what will the Ultramarines do now that their empire is lost and their chapter broken? How does that affect such an honourable chapter?
Aun'va is assassinated, and Shadowsun grabs the opportunity to take hold over the Empire and gears to up to war. Somehow, she had gained knowledge of the Ethereal's play with their race, and, though it is very hush-hush, a miniature shuriken is found in Aun'Va's body - Who might be behind this? Why would they do that? Is farsight somehow involved? What happens to the Tau as a culture now that their lynchpin has been discovered to be fake?

That sort of thing. That is characters who have achieved something of note, something that punches me in the stomach and whispers into my ear "I killed someone another player loved" - I'd be fething ready to do the nasty with that character, I'll tell you that

And as mentioned, this doesn't have to be the only, true canon of the 40K, or canon at all - Just one of the many possibilities available. Regular 40K can keep its characters and factions as-is, while "Galaxy in Chaos" or whatever show one possible outcome of this hellish situation.

So, in short, yes, I'd like it.

Id say so to if like when they did a global Armageddon campaign, like we all battle and directly influence the story whether the imperium dies or survives.
But unlike fantasy they release 1 book a year the summer is the campaign phase sort of thing.
The books should be a whopper £100 amazing thing which has huge updates to armies tons of fluff and a campaign.
Individual stories of note from the battle field could become fluff, a chance to become immortalized as the person who ran abandon over wit a baneblade only for him to get up eg.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Id say so to if like when they did a global Armageddon campaign, like we all battle and directly influence the story whether the imperium dies or survives.

And us Xeno and Chaos players are just gonna bite it, then?

No as there should be a load of publicity for you armies so you get more players before so its balanced plus what's the first army you chose when you start most often the good guys so you got more experienced players.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see why they could just do a "trousers of time" thing. Just a story-line based on a possible outcome. Two universes, split at a single point.

They could also just temporarily up the ante and then have things cool down.

Remember- Konrad Curze, one of the most esteemed prophets in 40k, never saw an end to the Eternal War. All he was war, forever.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm just fine with nothing happening in 40K.

It's the way it's always been, and the way it always should be.

Way too many ways for GW to screw the pooch with a timeline advancement.

Be careful what you wish for.

this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
No as there should be a load of publicity for you armies so you get more players before so its balanced plus what's the first army you chose when you start most often the good guys so you got more experienced players.

lol my first army was 'nids.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
No as there should be a load of publicity for you armies so you get more players before so its balanced plus what's the first army you chose when you start most often the good guys so you got more experienced players.

That didn't stop Team Chaos from whipping the arse of Team Imperium in the EoT campaign.

Yes, but only if the heresy series is finished first. I dont have enough reading time, and I imagine neither does any of us. It would be nice to get back to 40k reading, 30k was a nice diversion but it will always be that a diversion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, but only if the heresy series is finished first. I dont have enough reading time, and I imagine neither does any of us. It would be nice to get back to 40k reading, 30k was a nice diversion but it will always be that, a diversion.

This is from the most recent White Dwarf, talking about the Blood Angels.

"Time of Ending," huh? Not too subtle there...

Time of Ending has been the name for 500.M41 to 999.M41 since the 4th edition rulebook. I doubt that means anything.

Anyway, that's just Leviathan stuff.

The setting of 40K has always been the "End Times" for Mankind. That's kind of the whole point.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Well, there's a difference to making an "End Times" of 40K, and smiply making a similar campaign for 40K.

When people talk against an End Time for the 40K universe, they assume that things and people are supposed to die and be removed, and sure, if the fluff goes forward, that'll happen, becuase this is a motherzoggingly dangerous galaxy, and most famous characters are in military in some ways or other - BUT. There's no reason to throw the galaxy all the way into the prophecied time with a dying Imperium and just kill things off, as there's no reason to flat out undo what we have. That would make no sense. It would make sense, however, to show us what the "brink" look like in this universe. I know we're actually at the brink of the universe right now, but that's where we've been for a good 20 years now, so it doesn't seem like it anymore.

We still hear about the powers of the galaxy not being at their fullest. The Imperium are actually the only ones who are at full capacity at this time, with pretty much every other faction being mentioned to be "powering up" for the great fight of all existance, which just goes to show how unbelievably screwed the Imperium are, and how much of a popped zit they are gonna be when the others get moving.The Chaos Marines have the power, but are too dispersed to be a true fright, which Abbadon is trying to undo. The Eldar aren't really powerful at all, but are trying to fight their own arrogance so they might actually work together. Tau actually powered down recently, but they have the power - The only thing they need are an incencive to go into it with all their strength. The Necrons are still trying to wake themselves up, which sound bad when you aren't remembering that none of them like the others as leaders. The Tyranids are only just going into the galaxy and are stopped every time, because they are nothing but tendrils... See what I mean?

I don't just want people to die and the races to go away, that's what Fantasy does, and it works for them, which is properbly because their players are a bit more mature, but whatever: I do want the factions to advance a bit, however - Maybe Abbadon taking Cadia and moving his Black Crusade towards (but not all the way to) Terra, some really major Tyranids forces arriving, Tau realising what the feth is going in in the galaxy and gearing up to save it (for themselves, of course), Necrons doing something, that sorta stuff. Why do I want it? because it forces the factions and characters within them to evolve and learn. The Imperium is still racistic, fascistic and nationalistic, but when all hell is being roused around you and they all want a bite of you, can you really afford to keep up all the mindless rivalries you have? If someone, like the Eldar or Tau comes along to save you, are you gonna reject them, even though it means your destruction?

In fact, what an End Time could do isn't just destruction and change for the sake of those two things - It's the opportunity for characters and factions developing. Right now there's an excess of characters in the universe who I can have no relation to, because they never did anything of mention - The biggest achievement available is killing an Avatar, as they are a sort of HQ, who doesn't need to survive to allow the faction to survive. If the characters in the game are supposed to make me want to play them, they gotta have to do something of note, like having a rivalry with another character, having killed another or simply being important to the fluff, and an End Time can do. Examples:

Abbadon imprisons, or maybe outright kills Creed and take Cadia with the largest Chaos force assembled since the Heresy - What will the Chaos Gods now do with Abbadon? How does the world react? What does Abbadon become, now that he is the first and only Warmaster to actually threat the Imperium since Horus? Who are to stop him, and will that "who" ever be released from the eternal torment of the Warp he's in now? (That was my subjective opinion on the matter, if you didn't notice.)
Tyranids retake a weakened Ultramar, and the Swarmlord manages to kill Calgar and the Ultramarines chapter with succesors are left ruined and on the retreat, with a severely humbled Sicarus being the defacto leader of the tattered bunch - Can he grow with the job? And what will the Ultramarines do now that their empire is lost and their chapter broken? How does that affect such an honourable chapter?
Aun'va is assassinated, and Shadowsun grabs the opportunity to take hold over the Empire and gears to up to war. Somehow, she had gained knowledge of the Ethereal's play with their race, and, though it is very hush-hush, a miniature shuriken is found in Aun'Va's body - Who might be behind this? Why would they do that? Is farsight somehow involved? What happens to the Tau as a culture now that their lynchpin has been discovered to be fake?

That sort of thing. That is characters who have achieved something of note, something that punches me in the stomach and whispers into my ear "I killed someone another player loved" - I'd be fething ready to do the nasty with that character, I'll tell you that

And as mentioned, this doesn't have to be the only, true canon of the 40K, or canon at all - Just one of the many possibilities available. Regular 40K can keep its characters and factions as-is, while "Galaxy in Chaos" or whatever show one possible outcome of this hellish situation.

So, in short, yes, I'd like it.

Second!

No, but more seriously, I totally agree with you (although I could see Creed losing an arm, and leading a rearguard action to slow Abaddon; thus explaining why he hasn't reached earth yet).
And it sould be cool if they would resolve one or two mysteries like cypher or something. Maybe bring back a few primarchs?

I am voting No on end times for WH40K. First of all I like incremental storyline changes. Secondly, I like eternal war.

SYKOJAK wrote:
I am voting No on end times for WH40K. First of all I like incremental storyline changes. Secondly, I like eternal war.

Yeah I would be happy if they just progressed storyline to be honest, not necessarily End Times... Bring back Primarchs, bring on bigger conflicts etc.

The story has moved from the 13th black crusade.... Like 12 years ago. I would love to see some of the storyline progress.

It will make the game more interesting.

It actually moved back to the beginning of the 13th BC. GW didn't want the storyline moving forward in the way the results of the campaign dictated that it move forward.

 Psienesis wrote:
It actually moved back to the beginning of the 13th BC. GW didn't want the storyline moving forward in the way the results of the campaign dictated that it move forward.

Yet ironically that is precisely how they seem to be moving it forward anyway since they are playing up the grimdark and saying the Imperium is getting more pressured. They should have just gone with the campaign results if what they are doing is much the same.

I think that a 40K end times would have a different effect on 40k than it does on Warhammer. Firstly this can be deduced from examining the differences in the different settings (!). Warhammer seemed to have a more 'stagnant' setting, the boundaries of each of the races were well set out, and incursions into another races lands are inevitably broken and land is recovered (with the exception of the dwarves, but even then they still have territory that is (mostly) set out).

However in the vast 40k environment we see that the territories of the races are constantly evolving. Where the Empire at the time just before the End Times, were guaranteed to hold their major towns like Altdorf and Nuln, the Imperium constantly loses and regains worlds, the Necron territory is fractured and scattered, Eldar have been forced to adopt a nomadic lifestyle with their Craftworlds. Tyranids don't really have territory they just OMNOMNOM, Orks are scattered but strong etc.

And then there is the issue of the scale of each of these settings. Fantasy's environment is MUCH smaller than 40k's. So in short, where the advancements made in Fantasy are so concentrated they can all be collected under the title of END TIMES, but the 40k advancements are slightly more set out. To have such a change in the 40k environment in the same scale of Fantasy all at once, with such changes, it would be too overwhelming and wouldnt work.

So in short, 40k End Times are already happening. They're just the short little mission's we're having; cue SHIELD OF BAAL.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd prefer an alternate - call it "Visions of the End". A series of "what ifs" dredged from the Black Library, penned by the greatest Farseer of the Eldar. Each book is a vision of which way the Runes of Fate may fall. It pits you in a 12-tiered battle branched campaign as the ultimate lord of one of the two main races in each book, or one of the lesser allies attempting to ensure the survival of your race. The result of each battle swings the balance of fate of each closer towards doom or salvation. Each victory brings the winner closer to his goal, but breeds greater and greater desperation to the loser.

Book 1 - The End of Man: Chaos returns to the homeworld led by Abbadon; as the battle rages on Terra the fate of the Emperor is decided - will the worship of the Emperor dictate he be reborn whole to fend off the legions or will he succumb to become yet another God of Chaos?

Book 2 - Doom of the Eldar: Slaneesh is calling. Through the century it has hunted the Eldar and now it can contain its hunger no longer. The Dark Eldar have unwittingly fallen to the wiles of Slaneesh, and if it has its way it will slake its thirst on both races - and any that fall between it and its prey.

Book 3 - The Devoured Universe: The main thrust of the Tyranid Hive Fleet reaches the galaxy. The Necrons are fully awake; they refuse to allow the universe to fall before they reconquer it. C'tan shards battle Norn Queens and the true terror of both races unfolds as the rest of the galaxy is drawn into the battle.

Book 4 - The Green Tide: Ghazgul unearths an astonishing weapon of the Elder Gods; a weapon that transforms the already war-like race into a savage, murderous Waaagh! The Tau, the last secret ploy of the Elder Gods possess the only secret to stop Ghazguul's reign of terror - if they can unlock the secrets buried away in their racial genes - a secret hidden in the origin of the traitorous Farsight Enclave.

While I might quibble over the details I would be very down with this concept.
1. It could lead to campaign books and new lists - ala FOW (think late war).
2. I'd like to see one where the IMperium fragments, science restarts and the Empire is reborn Ascendant - aka we need at least one where the humans actually win. you could even piss every one off and make everything all part of certain Farseer's plan
3. Same as 2 for the Eldar. I want a book where they restart their empire, find a way to defeat the necron, or somehow are able to escape the galaxy altogether.

I say advance the plot, but maybe not by a large increment. There's plenty of things GW has foreshadowed, maybe they could finally act on one of them. Perhaps Chaos launches a massive invasion but their only halfway between Terra and the Eye of Terror. Somewhere on the other side of the galaxy, a significant Imperium character (a returning Primarch for example) finds a device to resurrect the Emperor but has to fight his way across the galaxy first. More Craftworlds die and this results in Ynnead arising in the Warp. The first of the main Tyranid Hive Fleets arrive. Something that moves the plot at least a couple more steps forwards instead of leaving you suspense

 skarnalaxwarlord wrote:
I say advance the plot, but maybe not by a large increment. There's plenty of things GW has foreshadowed, maybe they could finally act on one of them. Perhaps Chaos launches a massive invasion but their only halfway between Terra and the Eye of Terror. Somewhere on the other side of the galaxy, a significant Imperium character (a returning Primarch for example) finds a device to resurrect the Emperor but has to fight his way across the galaxy first. More Craftworlds die and this results in Ynnead arising in the Warp. The first of the main Tyranid Hive Fleets arrive. Something that moves the plot at least a couple more steps forwards instead of leaving you suspense

If do so, I'd like them to include the other, less ingrained faction more and give them a place in the overarching plot of the unverse. Like, Necrons are mentioned to maybe be helping against Chaos on Cadia, but never does a thing in that... It would be cool if they finally act on it, instead of jsut being, you know, another threat. Same with Tau, and to some extend Dark Eldar.

40k tabletop is already running under the assumption your battles could be happening pretty much any time between a while after the Heresy and "now". An advanced timeline could only be a good thing if you bear that in mind.

You get more eras to play in, more fluff to work with, and if you figure it sucks too bad... M41 is still there.

The problem with the End Times is....well, you're pushed the Apocalypse closer...but neither 40k or Fantasy will ever END. The End Times will be a forever thing. There will only be so much catastrophe you can do until everything is done. And unless GW goes under and takes things out with a bang, things will just never FINISH, and what's the point of moving forward if you never FINISH?

I'm not picky.

If its done well, I'm happy. As long as its better than Murder McMurderMurder.

If they do an End Times for 40k, then I just hope they do it slowly. They could just have different wars and battles decided by the players, similar to how they did the 13th Black Crusade, except for across several summers. First the battle on Cadia occurs, then some battles on its moons, then some battles in a bunch of other places throughout the Cadian system as the Imperials struggle to stem the tides. They could (maybe) have the Necrons and the Eldar come in on the Imperials' side, just to make it more difficult for the CSM bastards to win.

 dusara217 wrote:
If they do an End Times for 40k, then I just hope they do it slowly. They could just have different wars and battles decided by the players, similar to how they did the 13th Black Crusade, except for across several summers. First the battle on Cadia occurs, then some battles on its moons, then some battles in a bunch of other places throughout the Cadian system as the Imperials struggle to stem the tides. They could (maybe) have the Necrons and the Eldar come in on the Imperials' side, just to make it more difficult for the CSM bastards to win.

... And Daemons joining CSM to show some support to our favourite traitors! Orks joining the fight, fighting anything they get close to, maybe Tau joining in through some Eldar manipulation...

I voted Yes, because I interpreted the question as:

"Do you want all Chaos, all Elves and all Space Marines folded together as a total of 3 Codices, rather than the hodgepodge of things we currently have?"

I would love to see GW fold Templars, Wolves, Angels of Death, etc. all under ONE Codex with minimal differentiation. Same with all Chaos together. And one book of Space Elves. Keep it simple for playing sake.

In all honesty, i really like what the end times stuff is doing for fantasy, but I don't think its something that 40k needs right now. Fantasy needed a shot in the arm, despite the fact that it is a really great game with alot of fans worldwide. It tends to be overshadowed by 40k. It always seems as though the two games mirror each other too much, with obvious analogues for most the factions in both games. I think the end times is really cool for taking WFB and giving it something 40k doesn't have, and End Times is really cool for that fact. As for story supplements in 40k, I think the campaign books such as leviathan are doing just fine, they can even be used to advance story. But i think end times should remain solely WFB.

I think that it would be pretty cool. There are a lot of concepts that are really cool that don't get explored, and a lot of open questions i would like to see explored.

I think that GW could easily set the 'end times' some point in the future, and still have plenty of room in the 'current' setting to explore possible story lines. After all, it's a big universe.

And really I just wanna see what happened to all the loyalist primarchs.

It is far to late for wh40k.

Convert to Horus Heresy!

And really I just wanna see what happened to all the loyalist primarchs.

They die. That is what the End Times means for 40K. It's already written that way. These are the tales of the twilight of mankind. Maybe they go out with a bang or maybe they go out with a whimper, but in either case, out they go.

If done similar to the piece of fanfic known as the Time of Ending, I think it would be awesome. Some tweaks would be needed to get it up to date with current fluff, but it would be wicked.

Then again, our Darklord Seanron is at it again with something good (thus far) here

 Psienesis wrote:

And really I just wanna see what happened to all the loyalist primarchs.

They die. That is what the End Times means for 40K. It's already written that way. These are the tales of the twilight of mankind. Maybe they go out with a bang or maybe they go out with a whimper, but in either case, out they go.

Yep. Grimdark doesn't work if things get better in the end.
Which is why it never ends and the Emperor is reborn and the chaos gods manifest in the materium with slight limitations on their powers but just enough to make them incapable of doing stuff like creating planets!
Man, I don't know if I've ever written a run-on before that, so maybe I'm all caught up with the status quo.

I just read ALL of this. There’s a lot of good thoughts, but there’s a lot of “keep it just like 40k only moar!” talk happening, and I’m not sure that’s a particularly good thing. 30k games are distinct from 40k games. With their own related settings and characters, yes, but distinct. I think the envelope needs to be pushed even further for the next chapter of the story. Take it all the way to 50k if you have to. You can still keep the same models and rules and everything else, the universe has just moved forward and brought new story with it. Drastically. Just like the leap from 30k to 40k (only in the right order, development-wise). And there’s another ten thousand years of fluff to develop. Especially for non-Terran races.
The 30k galaxy and the 40k galaxy are very similar, and the 50k universe can be the same way. If you view the story as 40k being the “end times” of 30k, then 50k could be the “end times” of 40k. Frankly, having read way too many books, here’s what I’d like to see.

Chaos is knocking on Terra’s doorstep. 2nd siege of Terra. Get there however you want. Get the Eldar there. They’ve been growing in numbers for fluff reasons. Abbadon is crushing his way toward the golden throne when (insert fluff here) Sanguineous shows up and saves the emperor yet again by slaying Abbadon. (more fluff here) out walks the Emperor. Everyone cheers (chaos aside). Except the Emperor does absolutely nothing. He ascends to the warp and becomes the benevolent counterpoint to the warp gods, pulling strings around the galaxy in an eternal game of chess. Of course, nobody realizes this. Sanguineous included. The emperor just poofs and everyone just has a pause-battle-wtf moment.
Chaos is beaten back but with a now expanded Eye of Terror.

Meanwhile, back at Baal, Dante loses his cool when he discovers he’s not the golden boy to save the emperor and succumbs to the Black Rage. Mephiston steps in to lead the Blood Angels against the Tyranids. Necrons help, but cut and run at some critical moment, leaving the Blood Angels and whoever else wants some fluff (insert waaag here) to beat back the Tyranids.

Necrons cut and ran because they want to take over the universe and don’t’ think squishy humans and bugs can stop them anyway. But a certain rapidly evolving race of Tau could if they’re not nipped in the bud. Battles ensue. Of course, the Tau kick way more @$$ than anyone expects, steal a bunch of Necron tech and conquer a massive chunk of the galaxy right out from under the recovering empire.

All said and done, Sanguineous is leading what’s left of Terra in an effort to recover, and launches another crusade to find whatever primarchs are still living and regain lost planets. Like everyone else, he has only a vague idea what happened to the Emperor and wants to gather the remaining Primarchs to find out.

Tau are everywhere and expanding like crazy. Chaos is still running rampant around the galaxy under new leadership (lost primarch? Preferably someone we all thought was a good-guy). Nids are a scattered mess, but they’re everywhere. Necrons are pissed and looking for long-lost weapons to kill everyone with. Eldar are brimming out of the Webway ready to do whatever it is Eldar do. Orks got their deus ex machina moment and the waaag ends… for now.

Or, you know, something like that.

Everyone keeps their models, gets some new ones, and another 10k years of fluff ensues.

Oh yeah... and GW makes a $#!T ton of money on books and new models and terrain boards.

Emperor: *dies*

(5 minutes later as psykers galaxy-wide are exploding or turning into warp portals or going insane and using their powers at ridiculous new levels...)

Emperor: "What? Hmm? What the- Wait, no physical body, infinite cosmic power sans itty-bitty living space... oh, feth me. Well, best fix a few things first..."

(Warp portals close, people get strange urges to go clean up the psykers' splodey-headedness, surviving psykers hope their bouts of insanity didn't get uploaded to Youtubicus Interneticus)

Lorgar: "Ha! I knew it! I knew it! I was right, Dad!"

Emperor: "Oh, bloody hell."

Lorgar: "Say it! I was right, Dad, you were wrong!"

Emperor: "Look, just because I've become God doesn't mean anyone should worship me, so just stuff it. And wipe your face off."

Lorgar: "Oh, come off it, Dad! You could at least admit for one time in your life that I was right! I was right, you were wrong, you really were a divine being. And maybe you could apologize for wrecking my planet and its awesome churches and temples?"

Emperor: "You do understand, Lorgar, that being God means never having to say you're sorry."

Lorgar: "Say what."

Emperor: "As we said millennia ago: Son, I am disappoint." *SMITE* "Well, time to check on the rest of the boys- HOLY MOTHER OF ME HOW DID THIS GET SO FAR OFF TRACK?"

The main problem with a large scale chaos invasion is cadia. Cadians move too many units in sales to be changed or discontinued, unless they were relocated. But then they wouldn't cadians.

 tekno000 wrote:
I just read ALL of this. There’s a lot of good thoughts, but there’s a lot of “keep it just like 40k only moar!” talk happening, and I’m not sure that’s a particularly good thing. 30k games are distinct from 40k games. With their own related settings and characters, yes, but distinct. I think the envelope needs to be pushed even further for the next chapter of the story. Take it all the way to 50k if you have to. You can still keep the same models and rules and everything else, the universe has just moved forward and brought new story with it. Drastically. Just like the leap from 30k to 40k (only in the right order, development-wise). And there’s another ten thousand years of fluff to develop. Especially for non-Terran races.
The 30k galaxy and the 40k galaxy are very similar, and the 50k universe can be the same way. If you view the story as 40k being the “end times” of 30k, then 50k could be the “end times” of 40k. Frankly, having read way too many books, here’s what I’d like to see.

Chaos is knocking on Terra’s doorstep. 2nd siege of Terra. Get there however you want. Get the Eldar there. They’ve been growing in numbers for fluff reasons. Abbadon is crushing his way toward the golden throne when (insert fluff here) Sanguineous shows up and saves the emperor yet again by slaying Abbadon. (more fluff here) out walks the Emperor. Everyone cheers (chaos aside). Except the Emperor does absolutely nothing. He ascends to the warp and becomes the benevolent counterpoint to the warp gods, pulling strings around the galaxy in an eternal game of chess. Of course, nobody realizes this. Sanguineous included. The emperor just poofs and everyone just has a pause-battle-wtf moment.
Chaos is beaten back but with a now expanded Eye of Terror.

Meanwhile, back at Baal, Dante loses his cool when he discovers he’s not the golden boy to save the emperor and succumbs to the Black Rage. Mephiston steps in to lead the Blood Angels against the Tyranids. Necrons help, but cut and run at some critical moment, leaving the Blood Angels and whoever else wants some fluff (insert waaag here) to beat back the Tyranids.

Necrons cut and ran because they want to take over the universe and don’t’ think squishy humans and bugs can stop them anyway. But a certain rapidly evolving race of Tau could if they’re not nipped in the bud. Battles ensue. Of course, the Tau kick way more @$$ than anyone expects, steal a bunch of Necron tech and conquer a massive chunk of the galaxy right out from under the recovering empire.

All said and done, Sanguineous is leading what’s left of Terra in an effort to recover, and launches another crusade to find whatever primarchs are still living and regain lost planets. Like everyone else, he has only a vague idea what happened to the Emperor and wants to gather the remaining Primarchs to find out.

Tau are everywhere and expanding like crazy. Chaos is still running rampant around the galaxy under new leadership (lost primarch? Preferably someone we all thought was a good-guy). Nids are a scattered mess, but they’re everywhere. Necrons are pissed and looking for long-lost weapons to kill everyone with. Eldar are brimming out of the Webway ready to do whatever it is Eldar do. Orks got their deus ex machina moment and the waaag ends… for now.

Or, you know, something like that.

Everyone keeps their models, gets some new ones, and another 10k years of fluff ensues.

Oh yeah... and GW makes a $#!T ton of money on books and new models and terrain boards.

You forgot lion el jonson

Only on 2 conditions -

Goodies for Necrons. I'm talking titan sized warmachines and doomsday devices.

The Emperor is placed inside of a Emperor Class Titan (heh), and uses it to fight the enemies of the Imperium.
Best boss battle ever.

Well, I suppose my answer would be yes and no.

Yes, because the 'grimmy grim darkness of the not so pleasant future' line is getting less interesting as time goes on, and I feel some change could bring some interesting stuff to the universe. That being said, the last time I heard someone going on about change, everyone just ended up cranky and covered in feathers and tentacles, so there is that.

No, because they've set the narrative up so that there isn't just one straw that could end up busting the camels back, there's 40, and if any one of them goes than the entire universe will go BOOM. Doesn't exactly lend itself well to advancement. Especially considering that, if GW retconned the universe to where that wasn't the case, no matter what GW'd do, someone's (probably more than just one 'someone') faction would get the short end of the stick, meaning a proverbial poo pot of PO'd neckbeards with itchy key-fingers.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Weren't the clones mentally unstable and insane though? And not in the way that Kharn is insane, talking jibbering wreck of a man insane due to not having the connection of a soul/presence in the warp.

Abbaddon did not best a Horus in his prime, or just one without combat experience, he essentially defeated a 10 ft man with the mental age of a 3 year old irish setter.

A recent black library novel dealt with the Horus clone and I remember it being pretty perfect, it was even wearing horus' armour and was fighting with his mace worldbreaker. I don't remember how much dialogue It had but it was lucid enough to recognise Abbadon. It certainly wasn't insane in a childish way.

On topic, I really don't want a 40k end times, there's so much room for apocalyptic events already. Plus 40k is a setting, not a really drawn out story. I'd be happy if it stayed all 2 minutes to midnight forever.

 Smacks wrote:

 Coldstream wrote:
No real need for it to "advance" which ultimately would just translate to "Here's a bunch more new books and models you need to buy."

That is going to happen regardless. I'd feel a lot better about buying 'Codex Space Marines' for the 15th time if they actually changed something significant, instead of just retelling the same tired fluff that I read 20 years ago.

I'm all for this! End times, kill the emperor, blow the lid off the lost legions, bring back squats!

I vote no for end times. the emperor will never die.



For the emperor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Only on 2 conditions -

Goodies for Necrons. I'm talking titan sized warmachines and doomsday devices.

The Emperor is placed inside of a Emperor Class Titan (heh), and uses it to fight the enemies of the Imperium.
Best boss battle ever.

man, that sounds awesome. A dreadnaught won't do for the emperor, just place him inside of a titan.
Let's do it!!!!!

You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

 Argive wrote:
You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

Yes. That's what makes 40K so dark - we know that it's going tits up at some point, and that every action at this point is done to prolong that. That's why an End Times would be fun - We'll get to see what the different factions will do when it's really getting close to the end of everything.

If the rumours about Fantasy are anything to go by...

The Emperor is killed and released from his body, does battle with the Chaos Gods and sunders the universe into hundreds of pockets of reality.

Occasionally these collide and the different factions fight when they do...


This of course means that you will now have Lizardmen fighting Space Marines while the Empire does battle with the Dark Eldar. Orks will be fighting Orcs and Tyranids will take one look at the galaxy and think 'feth this' and go elsewhere for a burger


Or some rubbish like that

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
The main problem with a large scale chaos invasion is cadia. Cadians move too many units in sales to be changed or discontinued, unless they were relocated. But then they wouldn't cadians.

 tekno000 wrote:
I just read ALL of this. There’s a lot of good thoughts, but there’s a lot of “keep it just like 40k only moar!” talk happening, and I’m not sure that’s a particularly good thing. 30k games are distinct from 40k games. With their own related settings and characters, yes, but distinct. I think the envelope needs to be pushed even further for the next chapter of the story. Take it all the way to 50k if you have to. You can still keep the same models and rules and everything else, the universe has just moved forward and brought new story with it. Drastically. Just like the leap from 30k to 40k (only in the right order, development-wise). And there’s another ten thousand years of fluff to develop. Especially for non-Terran races.
The 30k galaxy and the 40k galaxy are very similar, and the 50k universe can be the same way. If you view the story as 40k being the “end times” of 30k, then 50k could be the “end times” of 40k. Frankly, having read way too many books, here’s what I’d like to see.

Chaos is knocking on Terra’s doorstep. 2nd siege of Terra. Get there however you want. Get the Eldar there. They’ve been growing in numbers for fluff reasons. Abbadon is crushing his way toward the golden throne when (insert fluff here) Sanguineous shows up and saves the emperor yet again by slaying Abbadon. (more fluff here) out walks the Emperor. Everyone cheers (chaos aside). Except the Emperor does absolutely nothing. He ascends to the warp and becomes the benevolent counterpoint to the warp gods, pulling strings around the galaxy in an eternal game of chess. Of course, nobody realizes this. Sanguineous included. The emperor just poofs and everyone just has a pause-battle-wtf moment.
Chaos is beaten back but with a now expanded Eye of Terror.

Meanwhile, back at Baal, Dante loses his cool when he discovers he’s not the golden boy to save the emperor and succumbs to the Black Rage. Mephiston steps in to lead the Blood Angels against the Tyranids. Necrons help, but cut and run at some critical moment, leaving the Blood Angels and whoever else wants some fluff (insert waaag here) to beat back the Tyranids.

Necrons cut and ran because they want to take over the universe and don’t’ think squishy humans and bugs can stop them anyway. But a certain rapidly evolving race of Tau could if they’re not nipped in the bud. Battles ensue. Of course, the Tau kick way more @$$ than anyone expects, steal a bunch of Necron tech and conquer a massive chunk of the galaxy right out from under the recovering empire.

All said and done, Sanguineous is leading what’s left of Terra in an effort to recover, and launches another crusade to find whatever primarchs are still living and regain lost planets. Like everyone else, he has only a vague idea what happened to the Emperor and wants to gather the remaining Primarchs to find out.

Tau are everywhere and expanding like crazy. Chaos is still running rampant around the galaxy under new leadership (lost primarch? Preferably someone we all thought was a good-guy). Nids are a scattered mess, but they’re everywhere. Necrons are pissed and looking for long-lost weapons to kill everyone with. Eldar are brimming out of the Webway ready to do whatever it is Eldar do. Orks got their deus ex machina moment and the waaag ends… for now.

Or, you know, something like that.

Everyone keeps their models, gets some new ones, and another 10k years of fluff ensues.

Oh yeah... and GW makes a $#!T ton of money on books and new models and terrain boards.

You forgot lion el jonson

All that they would have to do is make the Cadians into a form of elite IG. For instance:

The Cadian regiments had lost their homeworld, and acquired a fiery need for vengeance. As the years passed and Chaos only grew on Cadia, the numbers of Cadians in the Cadian regiments dwindled as new recruits from other worlds took their places. Yet, as time went on, the Cadian standard of excellence only rose as the Cadians asserted themselves as the greatest Guardsmen the Imperium had ever seen and distinguished themselves as such. Within a couple of decades, Cadian had nothing to do with the world of Cadia, and came to represent a fighting force so elite that only the Adeptus Astartes could rival them in combat.

It would be interesting. As a Tau player I'm pretty sad to say that if they did decide to advance the plot, especially if it was from a "the galaxy is gonna die" standpoint, the most logical way for them to go about it for that tiny little Tau empire out there in the middle of nowhere insignificant to the "real show" of Chaos marching towards Terra would be: "*yoink* Eaten by Tyranids!" (alternatively "*yoink*, crushed by Imperial crusade!")

Of course...if that whole "Tau were created by Necrons as the ultimate anti-chaos race" turns out to be true then seeing the Necron plan come to fruition and an army of "Tau Necron" psychic blanks would be pretty dang amazong.

Alternatively again, if they went with the whole Xenology "Tau Ethereals were created by Eldar genetic modification" angle...well it involves the Eldar so I will hate it on principle.

I'm just going to vote yes here because whatever they decide to do I'd be interested to see it. I'm to the point where I mainly have interest in 40k from a "build and paint the models" perspective anyway.

 dementedwombat wrote:
It would be interesting. As a Tau player I'm pretty sad to say that if they did decide to advance the plot, especially if it was from a "the galaxy is gonna die" standpoint, the most logical way for them to go about it for that tiny little Tau empire out there in the middle of nowhere insignificant to the "real show" of Chaos marching towards Terra would be: "*yoink* Eaten by Tyranids!" (alternatively "*yoink*, crushed by Imperial crusade!")

Of course...if that whole "Tau were created by Necrons as the ultimate anti-chaos race" turns out to be true then seeing the Necron plan come to fruition and an army of "Tau Necron" psychic blanks would be pretty dang amazong.

Alternatively again, if they went with the whole Xenology "Tau Ethereals were created by Eldar genetic modification" angle...well it involves the Eldar so I will hate it on principle.

I'm just going to vote yes here because whatever they decide to do I'd be interested to see it. I'm to the point where I mainly have interest in 40k from a "build and paint the models" perspective anyway.

OR (alternatively) Biel-tan and the Tau join forces to forge a new Eldar Empire where Eldar And Ethereals are both in charge (or at least until those crafty Eldar figure out how to stage coup d'etat).

 Argive wrote:
You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

Wat

Chaos is explictly stated to consume everything upon the destruction of the Emperor. The only two possible endings for 40K is the Eldar and Imperium teaming up and backing up their respective gods for a final showdown to smackdown all the other factions, or Chaos consuming the universe upon the destruction of the Emperor. Tyranids and Orks don't even come into the picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

Wat

Chaos is explictly stated to consume everything upon the destruction of the Emperor. The only two possible endings for 40K is the Eldar and Imperium teaming up and backing up their respective gods for a final showdown to smackdown all the other factions, or Chaos consuming the universe upon the destruction of the Emperor. Tyranids and Orks don't even come into the picture.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Argive wrote:
You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

Wat

Chaos is explictly stated to consume everything upon the destruction of the Emperor. The only two possible endings for 40K is the Eldar and Imperium teaming up and backing up their respective gods for a final showdown to smackdown all the other factions, or Chaos consuming the universe upon the destruction of the Emperor. Tyranids and Orks don't even come into the picture.

First of all, if you know anything of war, there is no such thing as a "final showdown". There are only turning points and battles. There may be a time when the other factions foolishly commit their armies to such a battle, but the Necrons would never do so unless they knew they had a high chance to win. And even then, there would still be the need to conquer each and every planet the enemy resides upon, hunt down any surviving Necron, CSM, etc. And by the end, the Eldar and IoM would be at ecahother's throats again; feeding Chaos. Either Tyranids win, Chaos wins, or Necrons win. There are no other alternatives, unless the IoM can give up its insane racial prejudice and start forging diplomatic alliances with aliens; in which case it would be allying with a multitude of smaller Empires, like the Tau, and other species, like the Eldar.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Argive wrote:
You guys do realise the only race thats ever going to "win" 40k is the nids right? by wh80kThey will just never stop and eventually devour everything...

Wat

Chaos is explictly stated to consume everything upon the destruction of the Emperor. The only two possible endings for 40K is the Eldar and Imperium teaming up and backing up their respective gods for a final showdown to smackdown all the other factions, or Chaos consuming the universe upon the destruction of the Emperor. Tyranids and Orks don't even come into the picture.

First of all, if you know anything of war, there is no such thing as a "final showdown". There are only turning points and battles. There may be a time when the other factions foolishly commit their armies to such a battle, but the Necrons would never do so unless they knew they had a high chance to win. And even then, there would still be the need to conquer each and every planet the enemy resides upon, hunt down any surviving Necron, CSM, etc. And by the end, the Eldar and IoM would be at ecahother's throats again; feeding Chaos. Either Tyranids win, Chaos wins, or Necrons win. There are no other alternatives, unless the IoM can give up its insane racial prejudice and start forging diplomatic alliances with aliens; in which case it would be allying with a multitude of smaller Empires, like the Tau, and other species, like the Eldar.

This is 40K, not real life.

Also, the Imperium is almost guaranteed to win any End of Times scenario due to them bankrolling GW. Plus the ascension of the Emperor is practically guaranteed if he's ever removed from the Throne.

Im changeing my mind i was in favour of the end of times in till i learned it all just a setup to gut the fantasy universe so i definitely don't want them to do that to 40k.

While im all for change even if my favorite factions get beat up or destroyed (dark Elder will win!) i wouldn't want to change the very fabric that is 40k.

 dusara217 wrote:

All that they would have to do is make the Cadians into a form of elite IG. For instance:

The Cadian regiments had lost their homeworld, and acquired a fiery need for vengeance. As the years passed and Chaos only grew on Cadia, the numbers of Cadians in the Cadian regiments dwindled as new recruits from other worlds took their places. Yet, as time went on, the Cadian standard of excellence only rose as the Cadians asserted themselves as the greatest Guardsmen the Imperium had ever seen and distinguished themselves as such. Within a couple of decades, Cadian had nothing to do with the world of Cadia, and came to represent a fighting force so elite that only the Adeptus Astartes could rival them in combat.

The FFG RPG Only War (p. 319) has a bit where it says the Administratum is aware of at least 3 dozen worlds called Nova Cadia, presumably founded by Cadian regiments. Cadia itself is not critical for the continuation of the Cadian miniature line at all.

The original Cadia can be lost or destroyed but the Cadian miniature line can easily continue via any of these "Nova Cadia"' planets. GW could even have the last survivors from Cadia rename their new planet just Cadia, in memory of their lost homeworld.

The old Imperial Guard Codex from 3.5 edition also describes how many other worlds have adopted the Cadian uniforms and equipment, so again the Cadian miniature line can continue. The argument that the storyline cannot progress simply because Cadia's loss would invalidate a line falls apart.

Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

In space battles, necrons are waaaaay better than 'Nids. They are more manoevrable, much faster (especially over long distances), and arguably have much longer-tanged firepower.
The main reason why there even are any tyranids at all is because the necrons are mostly asleep, and usually have to defend a fixed position (often a planet) at which they are at a disadvantege, as playing large space battles without Battlefleet Gothic is not really possible (and because the Necrons cannot find Hive Fleets and fight them in the empty void between galaxies, where they are at a huge advantage, especially as Deathwatch RPG established that the hive ships are mostly asleep in deep space with only a few organisms (ie tervigons and harpies) to guard them).
If the necrons allied with someone like Ahriman to guide them, under the leadership of the Silent King to unite and awake all of the tomb worlds, they could use their incredibly superior speed and Ahriman's psychic might to find, isolate and defeat each hive fleet at it's tendrils one by one.
Or the Necrons could use their thingy that destroys stars to blow up hive fleets attacking Imperial Worlds, like a super-Exterminatus (although this might destroy the entire galaxy, so they would have to emigrate like the 'nids are doing now, although they'd probably do it much better using their superior technology). Or they could replicate the stuff they used to defeat the 'Nids in Shield of Baal, everywhere.

ALthough as I'm not a necrons fanboy, I've gotta mention how unlikely that is: the Necons will probably never unite, or even put any real effort into doing this (Chaos would be a more obvious threat, for example).

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

The Necrons once ruled most of the galaxy. They have no biomass, though sleeping Tomb Worlds have been devoured. However, any fight between Tyranids and Necrons is almost always a net loss for the bugs, since Necron weapons tend to disintegrate whatever they shoot (leaving no biomass to consume again), and when they die they phase out, again leaving nothing to consume.

The idea that the Hive Fleets are just the tip of the iceberg is an in-universe theory, not a known fact. It may well be that the fleets that are here are pretty much all there is to it. Notably, the Tyranids are trying new, sneakier tactics to get into the galaxy. This does not suggest a limitless supply of soldiers... in fact, it suggests an army that now has fewer soldiers to expend on the effort than it originally had.

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

They've only devoured twelve galaxies, and having the mass of half a galaxy would generate a black hole and kill them all. I also take it you don't understand thermodynamics, meaning that Tyranids are constantly in a race against their own hunger and they constantly suffer casualties from simply burning casualties. There is no free lunch in real-space. They need energy to sustain every single biomorph for every second it exists- they would have all starved to death by this point if they had half a goddamn galaxy's worth of mass.

I mean Jesus fething Christ, do you even know how much mass that would entail? Even being able to fit the Tyranids in a one AU by one AU cube would be absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

The Necrons once ruled most of the galaxy. They have no biomass, though sleeping Tomb Worlds have been devoured. However, any fight between Tyranids and Necrons is almost always a net loss for the bugs, since Necron weapons tend to disintegrate whatever they shoot (leaving no biomass to consume again), and when they die they phase out, again leaving nothing to consume.

The idea that the Hive Fleets are just the tip of the iceberg is an in-universe theory, not a known fact. It may well be that the fleets that are here are pretty much all there is to it. Notably, the Tyranids are trying new, sneakier tactics to get into the galaxy. This does not suggest a limitless supply of soldiers... in fact, it suggests an army that now has fewer soldiers to expend on the effort than it originally had.

I would almost certainly bet on the Tyranid numbers just being a bit larger then the total of all the Hive Fleets we've seen, simply given how slow Tyranid FTL is, and how ravenous their metabolism is. They'd have burnt out were they the size of half a galaxy's worth of mass.

Also, because that one Mechanicus probe that exited the Milky Way only found Ork signals, the Tyranids probably came from outside the Local Group. Meaning it would have taken them probably millions of years to reach us from outside the Local Group, some of which is certainly nfested with Orks.

I'd rather not!

@wyzilla - 1. You're getting very upset about a very theoretical exercise concerning a universe which we use as a setting to play with toy soldiers... There is absolutely no need to be so obnoxious... but I'll play ball.

Thermo dynamics snuggest 40k universe follows our understanding of physics and biology... In which case I will just say "the warp"...

I could argue the Nids lay dormant maybe even freeze themselves in the void. It could be they are akin to demons and are actually existing within the intergalactic void as the hive mind could be a deity in their own call it "void dimension" who knows if this is true ?

Just because it does not fit into your idea of physics or your belief in the nature of the universe...or what you believe you have read in the the space marines fluff does not mean it cant be plausible...

There is no right or wrong answers.

EDIT-

In terms of fluff; short of galactic wide destruction, one race "winning" or whatever don't see how they can advance the fluff. The 40k universe is already so diverse and everyone can build their customer corner of the galaxy where what they imagine is true..

I suppose if the OLD ONES came back taht would shake things up a bit..

Id be ok with a world wide event that slightly changes the fluff of the game, i feel like a world wide event where the outcome effects future models and so fourth would be interesting also..not saying a drastic oh well abbadon made it to earth and killed everything, just like oh another crusade world event..example:all the races are fighting for a new world where theres some crazy relic or resource there...keep track of the world event in some way, overall winner gets some sort of new fig tied in with the fluff of the planet..then give the other races some sort of new fig that ties in with the fluff..example: say its a very rocky deathworld named Chilli ring IV..so the IG receive a new walker tank that can move across the rocky planet...idk just my thoughts

All things considered, it would be best if they would just keep progressing the Universe the way that they used to. That is, slowly. Every year in our world = 1 year in 40k. Basically, just add battles here or there, Cadia falls, Abbadon starts moving on this strategically vital planet with like 200 Chapters sending Strikeforces to it, etc. etc. It doesn't have to be some huge, drastic change of universe.

 Argive wrote:
@wyzilla - 1. You're getting very upset about a very theoretical exercise concerning a universe which we use as a setting to play with toy soldiers... There is absolutely no need to be so obnoxious... but I'll play ball.

Thermo dynamics snuggest 40k universe follows our understanding of physics and biology... In which case I will just say "the warp"...

The Warp is an alternate universe connected to 40K, and is not considered realspace. Also, outside of Zoanthropes, the Tyranids make zero use of the warp in the first place.

I could argue the Nids lay dormant

Except they don't, they're consumed, but the ships themselves cannot go into a state of dormancy when they're traveling at FTL speeds.

maybe even freeze themselves in the void.

They're going FTL

It could be they are akin to demons and are actually existing within the intergalactic void as the hive mind could be a deity in their own call it "void dimension" who knows if this is true ?

Then provide evidence via citations of the fluff or quotes. Otherwise your "ideas" as just that, and worth nothing more then fan fiction.

Just because it does not fit into your idea of physics or your belief in the nature of the universe...or what you believe you have read in the the space marines fluff does not mean it cant be plausible...

Then cite it when it occurred. There is no evidence to support Tyranids having the mass of half a galaxy, and I also doubt you actually have to knowledge to realize just how absurd that assertions is.

Just to educate you on how outlandishly absurd your idea is (I can't even put it to terms, it's just insanity argued from ignorance), let's lowball it and say the Milky Way only has a mass of 1,000,000,000,000M☉. This is in units of Solar Masses- a single Solar Mass is equal to the mass of our star, Sol, which itself has a mass of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Kilograms (that's a Nonillion). By your logic, this would mean that the Tyranids would have the mass of 500,000,000,000 Solar Masses.

So, with a straight face, you propose the Tyranids have a collective mass of 45,474,735,088,646,411,895,751,953,125 kilograms? (I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure this is 45 Duodecillion Kilograms).

There is no right or wrong answers.

Well in your case there's also unfounded, absurd, insane ones.

Considering the whole Tanith situation, it's fairly easy to run an IG regiment even if their planet has been destroyed.

- Fall of Cadia, would be a great fluff and gameplay opportunity to give Chaos a real win in the storyline. I don't get how all these Chaos crusades have come so close to defeating the Imperium but somehow never took Cadia. As far as the modeling question, what better way to put out new goodies for people to buy than by killing off the old ones.

- Death of the Emperor, the Golden Throne fails and the galaxy is wracked by warp storms isolating the various realms of humanity. Plenty of juicy opportunities for heresy and sub-kingdoms of the Imperium. Some Marine chapters establish their own fiefs, others isolate themselves completely, others throw themselves against the oncoming hordes of Chaos.

- The Emperor Ascends, marine chapters unite and lead a new crusade to reunite mankind.

- The Tau Emerge, taking advantage of a weakened Imperium the Tau launch a massive colonization invasion. Human insurgencies force the Tau to adopt much harsher measures than they're commonly associated with.

- War Between Terra and Mars, the Mechanicus revolt in the name of the Machine God. Neither can employ planet destroying weaponry without jeapordizing their own planet.

- Orks unite into an empire of some kind, do awesome battle with Necrons and 'Nids.

- Cypher's big plan is revealed.

- Etc.

Lots of interesting ways to advance the plot, redefine the universe without ruining everything.

I thought we were already in "end times" as far as the Imperium is concened, the apocalypse of the Horus Heresy has already happened, and the 40k universe is what happened afterwards.
Hope is already gone, the end times have passed, all that remains is the slow, crumbling destruction of the Imperium and the encroachment of xenos and traitorous filth.

 r_squared wrote:
I thought we were already in "end times" as far as the Imperium is concened, the apocalypse of the Horus Heresy has already happened, and the 40k universe is what happened afterwards.
Hope is already gone, the end times have passed, all that remains is the slow, crumbling destruction of the Imperium and the encroachment of xenos and traitorous filth.

That's true, but things are culminating into an explosive climax at 999 M41.

Would be cool for tzeentch to get his OP megastaff back from the blue scribes and overpower the other gods to ally the opposing forces of chaos to march on the imperium/eldar.

Imperium and Eldar would team up, Tau would join (rather obligatory really) and Orks would do their own thing to kill the encroaching forces.

I'd like to see something similar, but also not kill so many characters/support the pre-end times games if people want to play the dead characters.

Dark Lord Seanron made a thread about this but he wrote a story about it. And made it quite awesome.

One of the things I really think should happen is progression of the story.

The fall of Cadia being something that would be quite epic and would give a lot of character to Creed and the Cadians.

Chaos would also get a win.

It would be interesting to see a more desperate imperium. Where it starts to forgo certain things and start allying xenos races. I would like to see an end to the third war of armaggedon. I would like to see Gazhkull rally more orks. I would like to see new characters. I would like to see rivalries end and new ones begin. I would like to see some chapters fall and others rise.

I would like to see new marks of power armor.

I would like to see progression that is meaningful but not changing the overall desperation of the story. To make it so that it actually happening and allowing us more material to work with.

FAnfiction is most often universally bad. As I have written my fair share of horrible HORRIBLE fanfiction. Before moving on and making my own I often considered what would happen if 40k moved on. I considered it interesting, as I had written a contigency plan. One of my chapters would die, while the other one that had become so unlucky took that now deceased chapters place and their luck turned for the better.

I thought about what about other people's chapters I don't think there would be much change there would be allowing for new lore. Hell it would be interesting to see WHAT IF stories as told by GW and the Black Liby or hell even from forgeworld.

Fanfiction my friends is usually terrible, At least with GW there is some degree of common ground.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

They've only devoured twelve galaxies, and having the mass of half a galaxy would generate a black hole and kill them all. I also take it you don't understand thermodynamics, meaning that Tyranids are constantly in a race against their own hunger and they constantly suffer casualties from simply burning casualties. There is no free lunch in real-space. They need energy to sustain every single biomorph for every second it exists- they would have all starved to death by this point if they had half a goddamn galaxy's worth of mass.

I mean Jesus fething Christ, do you even know how much mass that would entail? Even being able to fit the Tyranids in a one AU by one AU cube would be absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

The Necrons once ruled most of the galaxy. They have no biomass, though sleeping Tomb Worlds have been devoured. However, any fight between Tyranids and Necrons is almost always a net loss for the bugs, since Necron weapons tend to disintegrate whatever they shoot (leaving no biomass to consume again), and when they die they phase out, again leaving nothing to consume.

The idea that the Hive Fleets are just the tip of the iceberg is an in-universe theory, not a known fact. It may well be that the fleets that are here are pretty much all there is to it. Notably, the Tyranids are trying new, sneakier tactics to get into the galaxy. This does not suggest a limitless supply of soldiers... in fact, it suggests an army that now has fewer soldiers to expend on the effort than it originally had.

I would almost certainly bet on the Tyranid numbers just being a bit larger then the total of all the Hive Fleets we've seen, simply given how slow Tyranid FTL is, and how ravenous their metabolism is. They'd have burnt out were they the size of half a galaxy's worth of mass.

Also, because that one Mechanicus probe that exited the Milky Way only found Ork signals, the Tyranids probably came from outside the Local Group. Meaning it would have taken them probably millions of years to reach us from outside the Local Group, some of which is certainly nfested with Orks.

It's been established that tyranids hibernate in the void between galaxies: most of them would not have starved.
However, this could be their weakness: if someone keeps them awake in the void (like, say, the excellent necron fleets or huge imperial armadas with a good leader), they could be made to starve.
This would work exceptionally well combineds with an exterminatus cordon like what Kryptman did.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

They've only devoured twelve galaxies, and having the mass of half a galaxy would generate a black hole and kill them all. I also take it you don't understand thermodynamics, meaning that Tyranids are constantly in a race against their own hunger and they constantly suffer casualties from simply burning casualties. There is no free lunch in real-space. They need energy to sustain every single biomorph for every second it exists- they would have all starved to death by this point if they had half a goddamn galaxy's worth of mass.

I mean Jesus fething Christ, do you even know how much mass that would entail? Even being able to fit the Tyranids in a one AU by one AU cube would be absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

The Necrons once ruled most of the galaxy. They have no biomass, though sleeping Tomb Worlds have been devoured. However, any fight between Tyranids and Necrons is almost always a net loss for the bugs, since Necron weapons tend to disintegrate whatever they shoot (leaving no biomass to consume again), and when they die they phase out, again leaving nothing to consume.

The idea that the Hive Fleets are just the tip of the iceberg is an in-universe theory, not a known fact. It may well be that the fleets that are here are pretty much all there is to it. Notably, the Tyranids are trying new, sneakier tactics to get into the galaxy. This does not suggest a limitless supply of soldiers... in fact, it suggests an army that now has fewer soldiers to expend on the effort than it originally had.

I would almost certainly bet on the Tyranid numbers just being a bit larger then the total of all the Hive Fleets we've seen, simply given how slow Tyranid FTL is, and how ravenous their metabolism is. They'd have burnt out were they the size of half a galaxy's worth of mass.

Also, because that one Mechanicus probe that exited the Milky Way only found Ork signals, the Tyranids probably came from outside the Local Group. Meaning it would have taken them probably millions of years to reach us from outside the Local Group, some of which is certainly nfested with Orks.

It's been established that tyranids hibernate in the void between galaxies: most of them would not have starved.
However, this could be their weakness: if someone keeps them awake in the void (like, say, the excellent necron fleets or huge imperial armadas with a good leader), they could be made to starve.
This would work exceptionally well combineds with an exterminatus cordon like what Kryptman did.

No, only a small amount of biomorphs inside the ships that serve as their immune system hibernate. The majority are dissolved and absorbed back into the fleet. The ships however still need constant energy to support them, especially given how poorly designed the entire concepts of organic technology is.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

They've only devoured twelve galaxies, and having the mass of half a galaxy would generate a black hole and kill them all. I also take it you don't understand thermodynamics, meaning that Tyranids are constantly in a race against their own hunger and they constantly suffer casualties from simply burning casualties. There is no free lunch in real-space. They need energy to sustain every single biomorph for every second it exists- they would have all starved to death by this point if they had half a goddamn galaxy's worth of mass.

I mean Jesus fething Christ, do you even know how much mass that would entail? Even being able to fit the Tyranids in a one AU by one AU cube would be absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Nids just wont stop. As they devour worlds there will be less and less emotion thus diminishing forces of chaos.. plus they kind of exist in the void between galaxies meaning that the "incursions" of so called tendrils into the 40k galaxy were most likely "feelers" looking for the best entry point. Time is irrelevant to the hive mind

I'd speculate the nid main body is akin to the size of half a galaxy at least. If you considered they might have already devoured many galaxies up to this point. Its like a cancer that is not going into remission.

I think this theory might have a hole as I am unsure how nids fare against necrons since they are abiotic. Are necrons quite numerous? can they replace/grow their numbers quickly?

The Necrons once ruled most of the galaxy. They have no biomass, though sleeping Tomb Worlds have been devoured. However, any fight between Tyranids and Necrons is almost always a net loss for the bugs, since Necron weapons tend to disintegrate whatever they shoot (leaving no biomass to consume again), and when they die they phase out, again leaving nothing to consume.

The idea that the Hive Fleets are just the tip of the iceberg is an in-universe theory, not a known fact. It may well be that the fleets that are here are pretty much all there is to it. Notably, the Tyranids are trying new, sneakier tactics to get into the galaxy. This does not suggest a limitless supply of soldiers... in fact, it suggests an army that now has fewer soldiers to expend on the effort than it originally had.

I would almost certainly bet on the Tyranid numbers just being a bit larger then the total of all the Hive Fleets we've seen, simply given how slow Tyranid FTL is, and how ravenous their metabolism is. They'd have burnt out were they the size of half a galaxy's worth of mass.

Also, because that one Mechanicus probe that exited the Milky Way only found Ork signals, the Tyranids probably came from outside the Local Group. Meaning it would have taken them probably millions of years to reach us from outside the Local Group, some of which is certainly nfested with Orks.

It's been established that tyranids hibernate in the void between galaxies: most of them would not have starved.
However, this could be their weakness: if someone keeps them awake in the void (like, say, the excellent necron fleets or huge imperial armadas with a good leader), they could be made to starve.
This would work exceptionally well combineds with an exterminatus cordon like what Kryptman did.

No, only a small amount of biomorphs inside the ships that serve as their immune system hibernate. The majority are dissolved and absorbed back into the fleet. The ships however still need constant energy to support them, especially given how poorly designed the entire concepts of organic technology is.

No, I meant the bioships themselves!
They use their weird gravity-based propulsion systems to find a target planet and get started, and then they just move in their sleep while hibernating.

Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I think this works on several threads on here XD


I for one would love to see the end times. Anyone?

Anyone O.o

I assumed this was the end times in 40k...lol

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I assumed this was the end times in 40k...lol

Its been stuck at midnight for 20 years.

 Sheokronath wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Weren't the clones mentally unstable and insane though? And not in the way that Kharn is insane, talking jibbering wreck of a man insane due to not having the connection of a soul/presence in the warp.

Abbaddon did not best a Horus in his prime, or just one without combat experience, he essentially defeated a 10 ft man with the mental age of a 3 year old irish setter.

A recent black library novel dealt with the Horus clone and I remember it being pretty perfect, it was even wearing horus' armour and was fighting with his mace worldbreaker. I don't remember how much dialogue It had but it was lucid enough to recognise Abbadon. It certainly wasn't insane in a childish way.

On topic, I really don't want a 40k end times, there's so much room for apocalyptic events already. Plus 40k is a setting, not a really drawn out story. I'd be happy if it stayed all 2 minutes to midnight forever.

Hmm, what? Memories? That's not how clones work.

I voted yes


And then the empera woke up. it was all a bad dream. now we can play 30k again

Yeah for sure. Not necessarily to lead into the kind of shakeup that Fantasy is rumoured to receive - I think 40k as a game is fine as it is - but simply to really progress the lore in a brutally effective fashion.

I honestly don't think it would work for 40k, the Imperium just has too much going for it.

I mean think about it logically, the Orks butcher each other as soon as they get left alone for a bit, and all of the other aliens will happily fight each other too. Eldar will fight Necrons, Nids will fight anything, and I suppose they cant eat Necrons but they will smash them if they want to eat a planet they are on. Chaos forces are humies, so they scrap all of the above, and each other, with all of the spite and intrgiue and jostling for power that goes on, any of Abbadons top generals would snatch power away from him if they could.

The Imperium is literally the only properly unified force, it isn't perfect, but they work together, and all of the BL publications have made it even worse because they have fleshed everything out. Many of the Imperial forces are essentially, proper old fashioned good guys. From Gaunts Ghosts through to all of the Space Marines books, we read about numerous chapters (over a thousand) and millions of Guard regiments packed with noble, honorable, selfless heros who fight and die for the citizenry and each other.

Don't you think the Imperium has it too good? Countless enemies to be sure, but the teeming trillions of Guard, Sisters, Inquisition, Space Marines, Custodians, Arbites, fething hell, even all the civilians and gangers on worlds would pick up a lasgun and fight for their species if they were going to get scranned by Tyrnaids.

I just think it works with fantasy because its just one world. In the vast cosmos of the 40k fluff, it all seems a bit too complex to have a similar story. I suppose if they thought of some way to unify all of the Imperiums enemies something similar could work, but it would still have to involve a colossal galaxy spanning battle across a million worlds, I don't think it would make any sense.

And then there are planet killers.. wouldn't the whole thing be fought in space? Surely almost every race has the technology to just blow planets up without bothering to touch a foot to the surface?

Anyway, for myriad reasons I don't think it would work like in fantasy, I'd like to see them have a go though.

 mattyrm wrote:
I honestly don't think it would work for 40k, the Imperium just has too much going for it.

I mean think about it logically, the Orks butcher each other as soon as they get left alone for a bit, and all of the other aliens will happily fight each other too. Eldar will fight Necrons, Nids will fight anything, and I suppose they cant eat Necrons but they will smash them if they want to eat a planet they are on. Chaos forces are humies, so they scrap all of the above, and each other, with all of the spite and intrgiue and jostling for power that goes on, any of Abbadons top generals would snatch power away from him if they could.

The Imperium is literally the only properly unified force, it isn't perfect, but they work together, and all of the BL publications have made it even worse because they have fleshed everything out. Many of the Imperial forces are essentially, proper old fashioned good guys. From Gaunts Ghosts through to all of the Space Marines books, we read about numerous chapters (over a thousand) and millions of Guard regiments packed with noble, honorable, selfless heros who fight and die for the citizenry and each other.

Don't you think the Imperium has it too good? Countless enemies to be sure, but the teeming trillions of Guard, Sisters, Inquisition, Space Marines, Custodians, Arbites, fething hell, even all the civilians and gangers on worlds would pick up a lasgun and fight for their species if they were going to get scranned by Tyrnaids.

I just think it works with fantasy because its just one world. In the vast cosmos of the 40k fluff, it all seems a bit too complex to have a similar story. I suppose if they thought of some way to unify all of the Imperiums enemies something similar could work, but it would still have to involve a colossal galaxy spanning battle across a million worlds, I don't think it would make any sense.

And then there are planet killers.. wouldn't the whole thing be fought in space? Surely almost every race has the technology to just blow planets up without bothering to touch a foot to the surface?

Anyway, for myriad reasons I don't think it would work like in fantasy, I'd like to see them have a go though.

You come up with a lot of good reason as to why the galaxy as a whole don't need changing, which I agree to. You say some weird things though, like "we-need-an-entire-third-of-our-secret-agency-to-keep-down-sedition-and-revolution-Imperium" being the most unified force in the galaxy, ignoring the Tau Empire, who's strength come from utter unity

What I feel a lot of people here assume is, that your own view of the 40K universe makes advancement of the galaxy impossible because, e.g. you believe that the Nids will eat everything no matter what, that the Emperor will be ressurected or so on, and many of you argue and give sources to why that should happen. Thing is that nothing "has" to happen in 40K - The outcome of ANY given conflict in the 40K universe is decided by the author and by Games Workshop, so, e.g the war for Baal isn't decided upon who would win logically, but what the point with the story was. The winner hasn't fought to win, he's been chosen to win. Therefor, of the story was advanced, only GW could decide upon who would do what and what would happen with that particular part of the faction. This isn't specifically aimed at you, it's just a general thing I've seen in this thread

That's the point, actually - Arguing that the factions in general should be changed like with the Elves in Fantasy isn't a thing that can happen, just as you've said, but minor advancements for, at least, a part of certain factions would be nice, and can be done. Personally, I'd like to see them focus on characters, and evolution of characters in the game, because, at the moment, we've got an excess of characters who aren't really that large a part of the fluff, but are just... There. The likes of Abaddon are mocked, because they never achieve anything, and don't relate themselves to the universe they inhabit. I stated it elsewhere in this thread, but if you allowed to kill an important character like Kell or even Creed, he suddenly gets a lot more interesting, because he has a relation to the universe who's supposed to fear him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

Which still doesn't justify asinine claims. An argument from ignorance is a terrible claim to make, be it fictional or real.