With all the crazy changes happening, can we expect future editions of WHFB?
If there are future editions, will they take place during the end times?

How does everybody feel about the progression in story?

I've always liked the standstill, where you can have a conversation about hypothetical scenarios, and walk away knowing that in the end, the warhammer world is in a standstill.

Now the warhammer world is at much less of a standstill, and some serious s**t is about to go down.

Let me know what you all think

Thanks
Austin

i think it will resolve into a standstill again but with some power shifts and reorganizing of the lands

Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

lmfao I hope so.

I'm guessing chaos legions/ undead legions or whatever nearly wipe out the empire. Then the skaven weaken nagash with some whacky new thing and the elves finish him of and the undead legion crumbles. Then the combined might of the elves, dwarves and the rest of the empire, lead by karl franz or whoever push back the chaos legions. Then stand still until next time

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

that would be nice

i'm hoping it'll all be dropped, really. the only result of it seems to be making the setting less diverse and less interesting.

It's interesting and a bit exciting. This is the first time that the world is shaking up and the story is advancing. And just look at the excitement and speed at which it is being eaten up. I'm fired up for it, let's see what's coming.

End Times has ruined WHFB. Not so much the rules changes. But the big guys.

Allow me to put it into perspective. I took a cauldron based gunline to a game vs Nagash. Four Bolt Throwers and 30 crossbows. All rerolling all failed to wound rolls.

Yet, the only method I had to reliably kill Nagash was to six dice final transmutation and hope he rolled the six.


Fluffwise, I love it.

Ruleswise, I'm not too fond, but I can deal with it.

KFA and Nagash can eat all the bags of dicks in the world.

I imagine the army/faction reorganizations and associated fluff will all stick, I expect that 9th edition will rebalance things rules wise.

Pretty cool fluff, although they have "squatted" poor Kislev and made the setting a tad less diverse.

Overall I have complaints (like I'm sure every oldschool fantasy player has minor gak to gripe about).



All Chaos gods should be given equal treatment. I don't buy this "Nurgle is either the strongest or weakest god, so it's justified" crap. Look at Realm of Chaos- that's a good way to do Chaos. Making your Chaos release so one-sided to a specific god is just not fair- admittedly, I'm speaking as a Khornian. I would have given something (if not models, some cool new unit option or wargear you can convert) to all the chaos gods.

They had lots of cool gak that was questionably canon that they could have mentioned to introduce diversity and balance out the stuff they destroyed. Are the Fimir up to anything? How about the Gods of Law, my old favorite? Maybe Solkien does something, or sends fourth with the warrior-priests of Remus in a desperate attempt to help order? I guess not.

Patience grasshopper, there are still two books to go, and my guess is the final book will be about Archaon and his horde of Khornate, Slaaneshi, and Tzeentchian warriors. The reason for Glottkin being so one sided was because, by fluff, he uses his nurgle forces as the vanguard for the main invasion to soften things up, the other 3 armies are still making their way to the old world to finish the job.

As for Kislev, I'd argue they didn't since by all accounts although theyre in a gakky situation they still exist... also, the assumed combo Empire/Brettonia list should be more than suitable for representing a warband of Kislevites.

As for the rest off them, my guess is that everything you mentioned (considering I've only heard of the Fimir out of that list) are too minor to be worth mentioning

Full disclosure I play TK and Doc(tz+ khorne)

I love the progression, I think the UL was pretty balanced, when it dropped and with KFA and all of Glotkin I think everything will level out.

Running Nagash vs KFC lists, I'm 500%

But Khaine, if 4d6 magic is legit + lore master + End times spells for every game the balance may be broke.

I bet a LoC shard and horrors list would rule the filth.

I personally hate the end times stuff.

So far its just more material for me to have to buy.

I won't be messing with it..

Thanks
Austin

I think it's a case of be careful what you wish for here. For years people have wanted the fluff to advance but GW have taken a big running jump with it. My biggest worry is many people will be disappointed by the way their army ends up, both in the fluff and on the tabletop.

The Khaine book is going to be the big tell, what state are the three Elven races going to be in come the end of it? Will they still exist or will their be one Elven nation again? I for one would be annoyed if come 9th my high elf army didn't exist anymore and I had to continue playing 8th or use counts as to field them.

 Redbad wrote:
I personally hate the end times stuff.

So far its just more material for me to have to buy.

Except you don't have to buy it. If you want to use End Times stuff then you are choosing to buy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I for one would be annoyed if come 9th my high elf army didn't exist anymore and I had to continue playing 8th or use counts as to field them.

Don't worry. 100% won't happen.

the only thing i dont like about it is the big monster/units it kind of takes away from what fantasy is about gamewise for me i think its becoming a little dumbed down more about who has the biggest monster rather than how well you play tactically i hope it doesnt continue like that

 kencotter wrote:
the only thing i dont like about it is the big monster/units it kind of takes away from what fantasy is about gamewise for me i think its becoming a little dumbed down more about who has the biggest monster rather than how well you play tactically i hope it doesnt continue like that

Yes, I concur, but I'm afraid that in the context of playing in the wider gaming community, this is exactly how it will continue. People seem happy to lap up the big kits, so this is what GW will provide.

That's not to say you can't keep things at a more sensible scale in your own gaming group.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

Classic Mario 2 reference.

 Flashman wrote:

 kencotter wrote:
the only thing i dont like about it is the big monster/units it kind of takes away from what fantasy is about gamewise for me i think its becoming a little dumbed down more about who has the biggest monster rather than how well you play tactically i hope it doesnt continue like that

Yes, I concur, but I'm afraid that in the context of playing in the wider gaming community, this is exactly how it will continue. People seem happy to lap up the big kits, so this is what GW will provide.

That's not to say you can't keep things at a more sensible scale in your own gaming group.

yeah its a shame i have nothing against the actual kits they are beautiful sculpts and impressive but its a shame the way they are effecting the gamer as a whole, i perosonally play a skaven horde at the moment the bkiggest thing in it is my rat ogers no hellpit or warlightning for me haha

I like the storyline so far. It does suck that they cost so much and are being released so fast. After Khaine I doubt I can justify buying them anylonger.

I expect a reboot to normal after The End Times. However, the advance in storyline is to develope new characters or change existing ones to the point that they no longer look or function like they are now. We may even see a loss of an army or two. Bretonnians and Empire might merge, however the popularity of the elves will insure high and dark will remain. They left the Tomb Kings with the the ability to remain, but who knows with GW.

I really don't expect much more to change, other than army compositions and special characters

i.e. This will allow GW to make new models and anyone who wants to play a special character will need a 100% new model. Army compositions may change as well new units and loss of others. Its a buisness tactic that is currently better than the current 40K crap

The books are expensive but I budget money every month for hobbying. I just buy the books & not the models for now.

Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

I've heard it a lot as a rumor, and I really, really hope it's just that. I mean, I'm fairly certain I've heard it as a rumor off and on for years, and it hasn't happened yet. so...

 toasteroven wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

I've heard it a lot as a rumor, and I really, really hope it's just that. I mean, I'm fairly certain I've heard it as a rumor off and on for years, and it hasn't happened yet. so...

I'll have to leave the hobby if that happens... and just use my bretonnians as very inaccurate 13th century knights or some such...
I hope it never happens

Thanks
Austin

Its all but guaranteed that elves, undead, and chaos will be consolidated. Its almost a given that empire and brettonia will see the same result. End Times is intended to be the lead up to whfb 9th, both in terms of setting/story and in terms of rules.

Aren't the various chaos and undead armies still playable as separate armies, though? Would that be how it might work with the Empire and the Bretonnians?

I just want skaven....hordes upon hordes upon HORDES!!!!!!

Its going to happen. Next book is going to be skaven they are going to come out and kill nagash or destroy a lot of stuff. The Great Horned One will come and do something.

I hope for a big vermin lord model to go along with the other big nasties that the other armies have gotten (see the forgeworld exalted vermin lord rules that would be good)

I would think the joint armies are for The End Times. As for permanent joining I doubt it, however it's possible

 Redbad wrote:


I'll have to leave the hobby if that happens... and just use my bretonnians as very inaccurate 13th century knights or some such...
I hope it never happens

Thanks
Austin

Why? Not to be mean but this sounds like just whining over nothing. I mean there is nothing stopping me from running an undead legions list using ONLY VC models. I'd bet it's safe that even if bretonnia combine with empire there would be nothing stopping you from building a solely Bretonnian force. Plus that's only necesarry IF the non combined books go away. Just because you CAN combine an army doesn't mean you have to.

My theory is that the Emperor of Mankind will nearly die in decisive battle against evil, only to be encased in a magical golden throne, kept at the brink of death. A religion will form worshiping him as a GodKing....

 Redbad wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

I've heard it a lot as a rumor, and I really, really hope it's just that. I mean, I'm fairly certain I've heard it as a rumor off and on for years, and it hasn't happened yet. so...

I'll have to leave the hobby if that happens... and just use my bretonnians as very inaccurate 13th century knights or some such...
I hope it never happens

Thanks
Austin

Hey. Elves got united. And that is just the most idiotic thing ever.

We dark elves have a bitter hatred of our cousins on Ulthua- Oh. Tyrion's doing stuff. These guys are actually pretty cool I guess.

FURTHERMORE. WHY IS HELLEBRON STILL ALIVE AFTER SIDING WITH TYRION AGAINST MALEKITH,

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Hey. Elves got united. And that is just the most idiotic thing ever.

We dark elves have a bitter hatred of our cousins on Ulthua- Oh. Tyrion's doing stuff. These guys are actually pretty cool I guess.

Hah.

We Wood Elves moved away from all that garbage thousands of years ago and now, ooh, guess we better listen to that Richard Asuryan after all and give our home to be Malekith the Pussy's new throne room!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

In his glorious Temple in the middle of Hexoatl, the Slann Lord Mazdamundi slept carefully. Surrounded by scores of Temple Guard, he could rest easily and keep an eye on the entire globe. He slowly moved his mind towards the future, to see what might happen soon.

"Whats this? "Nagash rises again? Wait, who are these Glottkin, why haven't I seen them before? Since when did Malekith become Phoenix King?"

Mazdamundi was worried, he had never failed to foresee this much before. The whole world was falling apart under his feet.

"That's it, WHFB is becoming far too unstable for my liking, time to commit the grand exodus..... Into the realm of WH40K. A sacred realm where nothing alters, no matter how bad the situation appears."

Mazdamundi snorted and woke himself up. His temple guard were still stood silently around him. With a flick of his wrist he beckoned over a Skink Priest.

"Did anything happen whilst I was out?"

"No Sire, the world hasn't changed at all."

"Dammit, I knew I shouldn't have eaten that second bluebottle for breakfast." Mazdamundi grunted.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
I would think the joint armies are for The End Times. As for permanent joining I doubt it, however it's possible

The point of it all is that GW cannot support the 14 or so separate factions that there are now while giving 40k the same level of support that it has now, thus the consolidation of those 14 into 9 (or fewer) which will make the game and the IP more manageable. Technically speaking I believe you will still be able to play a 'purist' force, but the division as they currently stand are gone. Think of it as 40ks allies system, but with more restrictions as to which armies can join up, and less restrictions as to what can be taken. Expect to see updated army books including multiple armies within ala the old realm of chaos books or whatever. In other words, "Armies of the Elves" would feature the Army of the Eternity King list, but would still have the Dark/Wood/High elf subdivisions within so players, if they want to can field a pure force of one of the three, however the 'balance' will be found in the combined list rather than in the individual list.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

In his glorious Temple in the middle of Hexoatl, the Slann Lord Mazdamundi slept carefully. Surrounded by scores of Temple Guard, he could rest easily and keep an eye on the entire globe. He slowly moved his mind towards the future, to see what might happen soon.

"Whats this? "Nagash rises again? Wait, who are these Glottkin, why haven't I seen them before? Since when did Malekith become Phoenix King?"

Mazdamundi was worried, he had never failed to foresee this much before. The whole world was falling apart under his feet.

"That's it, WHFB is becoming far too unstable for my liking, time to commit the grand exodus..... Into the realm of WH40K. A sacred realm where nothing alters, no matter how bad the situation appears."

Mazdamundi snorted and woke himself up. His temple guard were still stood silently around him. With a flick of his wrist he beckoned over a Skink Priest.

"Did anything happen whilst I was out?"

"No Sire, the world hasn't changed at all."

"Dammit, I knew I shouldn't have eaten that second bluebottle for breakfast." Mazdamundi grunted.

This actually came up today. The lizzies will exodus into 40K, at which point they will meet a space marine who will MURDERIFY them.

If its just a combined forces book.... No problem.

But to see the lion heart next to demigryphs would kill me.

Thanks
Austin

Hi guys & gals,

I've collected High Elves since the 4th edition box was released but stopped gaming WHFB a decade or more ago. I've still bought some army books, rules and models time to time though so I'm not totally out of touch with WHFB.

I loved the 4th edition High Elf army book (most of the high elf fluff in the newer books is just copy-pasted straight from there) with its detailed chronicles of the elven race, maps and introductions of the different kingdoms of Ulthuan and the units of the war hosts - it had such deep history and "feel" of an ancient and proud race. I remember reading the book with a dictionary by my side as I had just started my english classes (not my native language) and somehow managed to slowly translate the text. I had read a bit earlier the LotR trilogy and was immediately drawn to the rich world of Warhammer Fantasy and have followed it ever since.

Now this End Times stuff is just killing all that rich history.

I know that sometimes a good shake up of things is what a fiction needs and GW is of course entitled to do what they want with their product - although I guess they're mainly interested about selling miniatures (ever wanted to play with all the elven races together, well now you can!!!) but still. I have nothing against the return of the Nagash or a large scale Chaos invasion - those are kind of mandatory things to happen in Warhammer World from time to time! Wiping the Kislev and other places straight off the map, Bretonnian civil war etc. is kind of cold treatment though but yeah, it's a world shattering invasion, I get it. And those lost lands have some survivors and can be taken back (if GW ever makes new models/armylists for them), I guess.

But then we come to the elves and everything gets so dramatic - in a telenovela kind of way...

Somehow the quarreling rulers of Ulthuan in their wisdom decide that the Witch King is actually the best candidate for the job of Phoenix King and leader of their race - the guy being the bastard son of the cursed line of Aenarion who was already once rejected by the god Asuryan and is almost single-handedly responsible for the death of millions of elves and most of the Phoenix Kings during and after the Sundering... All this is forgotten and they also invate Malekith's friends to stay over because who wouldn't do that to people who have murdered many of your relatives and friends for the past thousands of years.

Remember, these people have been waging a pretty much constant war against each other for the past 5000 years. It's like if suddenly few South-Korean leaders would have an idea (god(s) told them so) that North-Korea's dictator Kim Jong-Un is the rightful ruler of all Koreans and the majority of citizens would be like "cool, let's follow him!" - what the...?

The high elves are a haughty race and their courts are known to include lots of intrigue but the stupidity of these events is just...

Nothing against Tyrion drawing the Widowmaker, although he had once already denied its call, as it would be a fitting event to spice things up. Nothing against some high elves joining Tyrion and others going against him but why would they then join with Malekith? As I see it they would probably stay as a force of their own led by still "loyal" princes and lords (Teclis, Imrik etc.) fighting against both Malekith and Tyrion.

The best thing GW could've done with elves, at least how I see it, would've been a cataclysmic end fight like the battle where Aenarion and the Mages stopped the Chaos and created the magical vortex. This time though the Khaine infused Tyrion and Malekith would destroy each other and the balance of the Vortex and Ulthuan would go the way of the Atlantis and sink. Teclis and the rest of the "good" elven heroes and mages would harness the unleashed energies and create a new spell of ending that would destroy them but once again stop the flow of rampant magic to the world. This would stop the power of Chaos and Nagash overcoming the world and would give the means for the men and dwarves to fight off the invasions.

The sorry remnants of the elven race would try to join their forces as the call of Khaine would be silenced in their souls and they'd see the madness of their own making and could start to rebuild their kingdom ( to Naggoroth or somewhere else). They would be a somber bunch, not evil in the dark elf kind a way, but bitter at the world and their sacrifice. They might even sail to the war-torn Old World to reclaim some of their ancient kingdoms.

Some individuals might go the way of goody-good, accept the failure of their race and try to "heal the world" etc. and would go to help the men and dwarves while some other individuals would be too broken by the destruction of their world and touched by the Chaos and would plot and march forth to bring the end to the world.

The elven world would've been shaken, kings and heroes, sorcerer's and villains died in droves and the truths about nobility and wickedness of their race would have been spread for all to see but it wouldn't have included all this silly "it was just a BIG misunderstanding 5000 years ago and they're actually friends" thing.

Lastly the Wood Elves would have nothing to do with these events as they don't take orders from the fools of the "old country". Some of the surviving elves might seek refugee from Athel Loren but that's it. Wood Elves have enough things to handle in the Old World so the idea of them getting into ships (ever heard of a wood elf navy...) and sailing to Ulthuan to fight is again just...

But yeah, this is just my opinion. I just remember a line from that old 4th ed. High Elf army book which described the nature of wars between the Dark & High Elves something as "...and if that would mean the destruction of the whole elven race then so be it. Better that none will survive than that the other side should triumph." Call it black and white but that is the essence of their struggle- Yin & Yang and all that.

Once the greatest heroes and anti-heroes of the elven race would be gone and their lands and gods shattered then maybe the survivors could be just elves and go on (mostly) as one people. But that they go willingly under the rule of Malekith, the most sadistic and power-hungry individual you'll ever meet, who's had incest with her own mother and made pacts with demons and who most of the elves (even dark elves) have feared/despised all their life - really?

Next we probably see Gotrek killing Felix and putting on the fabled Mask of Gork and Mork (TM) which makes hime the ruler of all greenskins and also the dwarves point him as their new High King so we can have allied Dwarf and Orc armies - because that totally makes sense...

Sorry for the rant and have a nice day

Cheers,

Ville

How about you actually read the fluff, and then rant about it instead of jumping to conclusions. Youd probably be pretty surprised as to how well written and logic al this is.

chaos0xomega wrote:
How about you actually read the fluff, and then rant about it instead of jumping to conclusions. Youd probably be pretty surprised as to how well written and logic al this is.

I have the Nagash book and it is actually well written - even if they are changing specific fluff things (how Silver Pinnacle came into the possession of Neferta for instance has completely been rewritten). Was looking to get the next too, once I had seen them, but they have all gone.

Still think its a Slaans dream however

If they just wouldn't be "sold Out" all the time - although I'm not that interested about paying 60€ for a pulp fantasy book. Maybe if they sold those digital editions for other formats than iBook and without an insane price tag but we all know that's not going to happen.

The thing is that all the fluff pre-dating these End Times is written so that the idea of druchii and asur joining sides is very far fetched (druchii hate the asur to their very guts and asur loathe what the druchii have become) and when Malekith is added to the equation it's down-right impossible.

It just goes so much against everything that the Warhammer lore has been for the last, what, 25 years or more and I think it's mostly done so that the people can just buy what they want and it's an elf army or they don't have to know other than "Johnny plays Elves" when looking for a present for kids.

I don't have anything against some change in the WH world but if everything is turned upside down it just gets too implausible and unconvincing. But that's just my view on the matter.

Lastly the Wood Elves would have nothing to do with these events as they don't take orders from the fools of the "old country". Some of the surviving elves might seek refugee from Athel Loren but that's it. Wood Elves have enough things to handle in the Old World so the idea of them getting into ships (ever heard of a wood elf navy...) and sailing to Ulthuan to fight is again just...

Well I think the idea is that the Everqueen and Ariel Avatars of Isha are now one and the same - there is also now the whole worldroots travel system?

I just wish that who was dead, who was alive, and how, was consistent between the novels and codex.



So far, Chaos has sort of united, the dwarves have played a bit part, almost all the human kingdoms have ceased to exist in any meaningful way, as have the orks, and the empire has lost Altdorf, which has been pretty much leveled. Skaven have gotten their teeth kicked in every time that they show up, and the Horned Rat made a personal appearance to order them to basically sit this out. The Lizardmen have fled, and I have not read the elf book to see what happens there.

For those noting some *achem* similarities between properties, Nagash = The Emperor, with his Primarchs/Mortarchs leading his unstoppable fearless legions while strife between them brews internally and the four Gods of Chaos have empowered one who might lead them in rebellion against him.

I really wish they've make up their minds about Vlad Von Carnstein. Since they have different writers on every book he's alternated between awesomely badass and a real jerk, sometimes in the same scene, depending on who wrote that version.

there is also now the whole worldroots travel system?

I haven't read the latest Wood Elf army book but apparently I have yet another reason to dislike the works of Matt Ward... So the Wood Elves use Dark Magic and their queen Ariel traveled through the root-highway (nice concept, even though clearly a eldar webway rip-off, but with a bad implementation) beat up Morathi and made her reveal the secrets of the dark art? A classical Wardian Slip...

Its not impossible. Theyre facing down the end of the world. Its just change and people are resistant to change.

Look as the USSR and the US. Polar opposites, mortal enemiez. Teamed up to take down Nazi Germany. When your o0tions are work tigether or die, youd be surprised what differences can be overcome.

Its not impossible. Theyre facing down the end of the world. Its just change and people are resistant to change.

Look as the USSR and the US. Polar opposites, mortal enemiez. Teamed up to take down Nazi Germany. When your o0tions are work tigether or die, youd be surprised what differences can be overcome.

First of all, very bad example. U.S and USSR were never in an open war against each other before or after WW2 (although fought in Korea, Vietnam and 3rd world countries on a different level).

The elves have fought for 5000 years so it's bit different than just going "hey, we have problems so lets work together". Their leader Malekith is the embodiment of everything the Asur have come to despise about druchii and to them is the most degenerated elf in history. He has tried to invade Ulthuan every few hundreds years or so and twice in the last 300 years, killing and destroying and taking thousands of slaves to Naggaroth to blood sacrifices. If the relations between U.S and USSR would have been like that do you think the they would have made peace instead of starting a nuclear holocaust?

If you want to use a situation from history as an example then maybe this would be a better one. After the 9/11 attacks instead of going to Afghanistan and Iraq the U.S would've elected Osama bin Laden as its new president. Does that sound a plausible scenario? I think not.

Secondly, it's not the change that I or many other people are resistant about. Like I said, I don't have anything against even the Ulthuan itself getting sank beneath the waves or elves unifying etc. The way it is done is the main thing. The whole history of Asur and Druchii watered-down to suit the idea that Malekith gets the throne and most Asur back him up is just so implausible. If the whole cursed line of Aenarion (Malekith, Tyrion, Teclis) would all get killed along with most of the other character ie. the driving force of their races and most of their subjects maybe some "new guys" could emerge and patch things up so that some sort of mutual co-existence or even unity could be possible. With Malekith as the leader of their entire race - never.

Its not a "hey were cool now lets join"

Its a "join or DIE" neither one of us is strong enough to hold out against chaos. Yes we hate each other but if the option is join or DIE, well I like being alive.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Its not a "hey were cool now lets join"

Its a "join or DIE" neither one of us is strong enough to hold out against chaos. Yes we hate each other but if the option is join or DIE, well I like being alive.

In all fairness, from what I've heard(unsure of validity), there is a rumour that malekith was tricked, and the phoenix flames weren't meant to burn him.

If so, I wonder who that could be? It's not like his mother is a slaanesh worshipper or anything...

The Chaos has always been a major threat and usually it has been the druchii who have brought the Chaos to Ulthuan with them - but I guess all those demonic pacts etc. have been retconned to death in the latest installment of their lore.

Anyhow, the Asur have always been a race in twilight and aware that their time is ending - that's in the fluff. It was also made very clear in the fluff that no matter what, they think that druchii should never win and they would rather die to the last man than let the Malekith gain the throne of Ulthuan.

But now suddenly they make a total U-turn, accept Malekith as their leader and march together like it's year -2800. No rules for fragile alliances, infighting etc, the Asur units just march alongside druchii without any problems.
And with that the whole soul and motivation of their race is just sold away because "we might die". These are really the End Times...

In all fairness, from what I've heard(unsure of validity), there is a rumour that malekith was tricked, and the phoenix flames weren't meant to burn him.

If so, I wonder who that could be? It's not like his mother is a slaanesh worshipper or anything...

So Morathi was able to trick Asuryan, the Creator-God of the Elven Pantheon in his most sacred temple? And Malekith never did anything wrong before that - like poisoned the then current Phoenix King, assassinated his rivals, collected Chaotic artifacts etc. Also if he had been declared Phoenix King he would have married his own half-sister who was the Everqueen - well he had all that incest with his mother so that was probably least of his problems...
And even if all these events are retconned it still doesn't take away the fact that Malekith and his followers have been acting like total dicks for the last 5000 years so that no-one, let alone the Asur, would trust him or any other druchii one bit.
But apparently they do because Chaos is more Evil.

Oh, why GW, why...

It is indeed, the Ward Times....

The novels are not to be taken as canon, thats sta dard Black Library, so any inconsistencies there shouldnt he a concern.

As for the whold High/Dark elf union, all will be made clear when you actually read the fluff, contrary to much of the angst here it actually makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Thank you chaos. Thats been my point, even if im being a bit broad as i dont want to spoil anyhing

Those things I talked about are straight from the old High Elf and Dark Elf army books, not from any BL stuff.

What comes to the End Times Khaine making sense for all the elves to get together, well, I'm not buying it and I'm not buying it if you catch my drift The same thing has been said before about many things GW has changed in their fluff in WHFB and 40k and it's usually the opposite (for me).

As I haven't been playing WHFB or 40k anymore in years it doesn't basically affect me at all - I'm just a bit sad to see the original WH world I liked so much disappear and getting replaced with a CrudWard vision of things.

That said if any of you have read the Khaine book and don't have better things to do with your time then, please, go ahead and PM me a short spoiler why all this is happening. Maybe then I will have peace, knowing that my vision of the elves is still better

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the surviving remnant.

Naggaroth appears to be lost to Khorne (elven holdings there were limited mostly to the citadels and minor outposts, with the vast interior of the land uninhabited save for a few shade tribes).

Uluthan has mixed reports, ranging from war ravaged but still standing, all the way through to completely shattered and unlivable (something about a Chaotic mist warping everything?)

Athel Loren has been, from what I read last, overrun by Beastmen? Or perhaps partially...

Then there are the far-flung High elven colonies (aka Sea Elves), where we have heard nothing of their fate.


All in all, there appears to be very little room left for the elven survivors to populate. I dare say their numbers, already dwindling, would have taken an even sharper decline from the outcome of the End Times. Perhaps their populations are simply too small to sustain the vast kingdoms they once held, and will either unite into a single empire, or will reduce in smaller, insular nations concerned primarily with their own survival and rebuilding rather than any grand expeditions abroad.

I could foresee a (mostly) united elven front made up of broken and weary refugees from all three nations banding together to survive in the post-End Times world...eking out an existence and attempting to reclaim small pockets of elven lands, cities, groves etc. Some would turn to diplomacy, others piracy/plundering to survive, or perhaps a mixture of both?

In any event, whilst I love the old lore, it was becoming rather stale. I fear for too great a change by Ward, but some change might give a breath of fresh air back into the hobby. I would love to see Chaos Dwarves return (wouldn't we all?) but I doubt that. I also fancy some of the non-imperial/bretonnian human lands (Araby, Norsica, Ind, Cathay) but who knows?

I'm not a fan of all the consolidation and making changes to the setting that seem to be further reducing the nations in the background.

I'd been looking at getting back into WHFB... So, tell me more about this Kings of War thing that's all the rage these days?

Watch, it will end up like Empire In Flames and get retconned in four years.

I thought Ward left GW months ago?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I thought Ward left GW months ago?

Our spiritual liege will never abandon us 0.o

Thanks
Austin

Mat Ward did indeed leave the company back in April or so.

Wood Elves were partly overrun by beastmen, but we're now totally overrun by Dark Elves. Who we welcomed with open arms. Because the High Elf queen told us to after killing the Queen in the Forest and having her half-brother-boyfriend kill Orion.

This End Times release must have been planned and mostly written ready while he was still working for GW. If not and they're writing it on the move it's even worse...
Although now that I think of it, the fact that there are no new releases for Malekith, Tyrion, Imrik or other elven characters or units could point to the direction that the End Times Khaine is just that, an ad hoc construction put together in a hurry to quickly get rid off those old (and terrible...) dragon models they've got still left in stock

Makes as much sense as anything. They sold out of Ariel models years ago so they don't have to push her and can safely kill her off... if they've run out of dragon SC models by the time the next book comes out, oops, there goes Elvenkind.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mat Ward did indeed leave the company back in April or so.

Wood Elves were partly overrun by beastmen, but we're now totally overrun by Dark Elves. Who we welcomed with open arms. Because the High Elf queen told us to after killing the Queen in the Forest and having her half-brother-boyfriend kill Orion.

The fluff I read in the Nagash book had the Everqueen entering into a bargain to save Ariel in exchange for the Wood Elves help in saving her daughter - (her Consorts brother being all evil now and making sure she gets sacrificed rather than rescuing her) - which although Ariel seemed to be going through with her part, the WE didn't.

I don't have a problem with the whole Ariel /Everqueen merging - both are avatars of the goddess Isha?

Not sure why she would join with Malkeith against her (possessed) Consort however unless she is promised a way of getting him back?

I don't know about the new books fluff as can't get them..................

Naggaroth appears to be lost to Khorne (elven holdings there were limited mostly to the citadels and minor outposts, with the vast interior of the land uninhabited save for a few shade tribes

Well the most recent DE army book had a much expanded and more populous land with loads of fortress etc.

So the whole thing really goes to telenovela!

Leaders of the elves are going through some pretty crazy "my brother killed your husband so join with my half-sister and save his ex-lover while also allying with a cold-hearted killer who murdered most of our relatives and who secretly wants only to be loved by his own mother and show everybody that he is worthy in the eyes of his long dead father, the man who happens to be also the great-great-great-great-grandfather of his most hated adversary, the ex-lover of his wife-to-be, my brother, who has gone crazy after the death of his daughter and wants to kill the whole family and who we are trying to save" drama and forget the original reason why they even were fighting against each other for the past millenniums.
And everybody follows them because a god who all of them thought was trying to keep order in the world turns out to be more bat-gak crazy than their crazy god of murder and tells them to get wicked!

I'm loving this

 toasteroven wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

I've heard it a lot as a rumor, and I really, really hope it's just that. I mean, I'm fairly certain I've heard it as a rumor off and on for years, and it hasn't happened yet. so...

Evidence is trending towards just this happening though. Undead, Chaos, and now Elves are all being unified. Why would human armies be different ?

Also unification and "paring" down of army books is in line with two consistently repeated rumors: 1 - a reduction in the number of army books so that 2) the game is much easier to keep updated edition to edition, an often repeated challenge regarding WHFB by GW statements.

I think the real question mark is what happens to the non-chaotic nonhumans ? It's reasonable to think Skaven will keep being their own solo entity, but i'm interested to see what happens to Lizardmen, Ogres, and Dwarves.

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.


I'd love to see some non-human Concord of the Eagle, a la Confrontation, where the non-humans band together to stand against humans, elves, and evil dudes.... but it'd be a ripoff of Confrontation, and i'm not sure what sense making common fluff ground they'd all have.

 Haight wrote:

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.

Which is why both have been obliterated right off. Lizardmen are fleeing the world via some as of yet undisclosed but sounds like the Webway, and Ogres have been driven from their homelands and are joining up with humans and chaos.

Orks and night goblins have thus far been more or less swept aside and annihilated as well. Waiting for a book on them.

The end times are depressing....

This new fluff sucks, and is really painful to read.


I'm sure it's well written, but dammit (janet) where does it end?
They are messing with everything... Fantasy around here is already virtually dead... and with all the new changes, all they are doing is driving people further

Thanks
Austin

End times heralds the end of warhammer. No tactics required. Just pick KFA and win.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.

Which is why both have been obliterated right off. Lizardmen are fleeing the world via some as of yet undisclosed but sounds like the Webway, and Ogres have been driven from their homelands and are joining up with humans and chaos.

Orks and night goblins have thus far been more or less swept aside and annihilated as well. Waiting for a book on them.

Right, i'd be with you, but for a reason applicable to both:

In terms of IP, other than perhaps Skaven, GW's version of Lizardmen and Ogres are extremely defensible ; Aztecan influenced galactic janitor Lizardmen is pretty unique, particularly with the various shapes and sizes of lizards and dinos, and ravenously vaguely mongolian horsemen-less-the-horses-cuz-they-probably-ate-them who worship an all devouring Maw that came from the sky and devours even the land (read that: comet that is giving off radiation more than likely) with gut plates.

In terms of defensible IP, they're at the top (as opposed to say "dwarves", any of the variety of elves, or the empire or bretonnia, which are all ridiculous boiler-plate in nature). Which is why i say i'm puzzled. I don't know about ogres, but i've seen in many places that Lizards have for a long time been a popular and well selling army. Which leaves me sorta puzzled. I would imagine with the strength of the recent-ish ogre book, that they've seen an uptick in popularity.


Also, Bell of Lost Souls is reporting that End Times is not necessarily done with book 5, and that it is likely End Times supplements will continue into 9th Edition, which is poised to drop in May / June.


I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

The ogres on the other hand split up, some marching towards the empire (ostensibly to be mercs) and some marching North (ostensibly to join the chaos invasion dinner bell).



I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbad wrote:
The end times are depressing....

This new fluff sucks, and is really painful to read.


I'm sure it's well written, but dammit (janet) where does it end?
They are messing with everything... Fantasy around here is already virtually dead... and with all the new changes, all they are doing is driving people further

Thanks
Austin

Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

 Haight wrote:


Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

If they lower the model count, most people would quit. As it'll lose it's appeal.

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

Well at least they did not got eaten by Tyranids

I hope more people come to the hobby, but we can ignore the end times stuff for 9th..

Thanks
Austin

For me, it's so conflicting.
I'd hate to see united armies/army books as a standard of 9ed and I think that progression was a too drastic. I would've liked some minor changes, say, Malekith becomes new King and the other guy takes Malekith's place - that's fine. Franz becoming Uber Franz - uber cool. Nagash reborn - superb. Settra gets his bony ass handed to him (?) - not so superb. Kislev destroyed - not fun. Etc, etc.

I hope with the beginning of the end times that they will introduce all of books about it that include the almost destruction of nations, the rising of chaos, the introduction of a nice new shaven weapon or maybe evening a different box set to the island of blood. But we can only wait and see.

I too would be sad if the variety of armies was condensed. If that's the case I will likely stick with 8th.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:


Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

If they lower the model count, most people would quit. As it'll lose it's appeal.

They've already taken their first steps ; 50% lords and heroes and these monster point count lords (i will admit, some of them actually act as force multipliers, but not all) is an active step toward model count reduction. I don't mean to infer the game becomes a skirmish game, not at all. However the sheer size and scope of the game has become a barrier to entry, largely due to model count costs. It's a known issue that GW has talked about in several of their official releases (financials, company outlooks, etc). I do not believe that they'll go a route that precludes you from taking cheap lords / heroes, and loading up on models (as that would be dumb of them too!), but allowing more lords and heroes is one way you combat the initial buy-in barrier and resistance, and lower the initial investment cost due to lower model count.

Search around these forums ; i've seen no less than 6 people post "Thinking of starting a legions of undeath army now that i can buy a single hundred dollar model [nagash] and that's half my army." While we probably realize that's an incorrect summation, that's exactly the desired result that GW wants ; the perception that the game is now less expensive to get into, and that breaks the barrier for the otherwise hesitant but interested consumer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."


Regardless of what the fluff says, GW is governed by real world things more than what they write in their books ; LIzards are a well selling army with an easily defensible IP. It wouldn't make much sense for them to abandon them, but then again, they've done sillier things in the past.




Regardless, here's the thing:

1) Fantasy has gotten too expensive for most new players to pick up on a whim or impulse. It's a MAJOR money commitment.

2) Fantasy sales are a quarter to a third of what 40k's are.

3) the way the game works, it's not like in 40k where in a 500 point game i can still take a landraider if i want to most of the time. If i'm playing a 500 point WHFB (which, i can't almost even fathom...), then i'm gak out of luck if i want to take an Ironblaster cannon, or frost phoenix. This is another barrier to entry ; the biggest, coolest gak in the game doesn't point scale with the game like it does with 40k. Yes, there's a vanishing point on both ends of the spectrum, but it's much lower in 40k than it is in Fantasy. This contributes to another barrier to entry for fantasy.

4) Having a number of armies in the low to mid teens is a gigantic hurdle for updating and balancing.

I worked for privateer as one of their rules infernals for several years. It was hard enough with 4 factions which were all independant with no cross pollination, and then a more porous quasi fifth for each of the games. I can't even fathom 13-14 different factions.

The point here is that if they don't consolidate, they can't address two HUGE fans of the game concerns ; slow speed of updates with new editions, and therefore end the "newest army book = win" syndrome.

5) GW after the chapterhouse incident is going to be keenly interested in protecting unique IP's, and developing more homogenous ones into something more defensible. That second one is the real challenge, particularly with Dwarves and Elves.


I'm not suggesting that WHFB is going to become a skirmish game, but i would not be surprised if 9th aims to reduce the model count. signfiicantly. I also can't imagine they are going to squattify anything else, but hey, i might be wrong. So far the new CEO seems to be making some good decisions (quick turn around on End Times Reprints, confirming that softcover books are coming back for an economy price option, etc etc). They also have a lot of challenges when it comes to Fantasy, and if we want to see it survive, we might have to embrace some changes with the game going forward ; what's been being done hasn't been working, and if more of the same continues, the game will get short shrift if not all together abandoned on a long enough timeline.

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

This is gonna be one of those conversations isn't it?

'It says right here they left' 'No it doesn't, it says they withdrew' 'it says they're long gone in the next book'. 'No, it says 'they have long since fled. abandoning thier cities to the warp. They might not have fled off the WHFB world!' " "This other one actually describes them fleeing into the webway'. 'You can't use that, it's a black library source!'

And so on, and so on....

Last time it reached the point that they were swearing I was wrong, and that the authors of nine BL novels, two IA books, and three GW codices were all also wrong, because one line in one codex from third edition said something else.

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

Not sure what this has to do with the other guy throwing up his hands in exasperation instead of proving his point with quotes if he really wants to and proverbially "stopping right here", even though the whole act of posting is in direct contravention of "stopping right here" - i recall all of two specific mentions about the lizzies abandoning ship, there might be more...

In any event, time will tell if they squat the Lizzies or not. I will merrily admit i'm wrong if it happens. I don't think it will. We're all entitled to our opinion. Fluff != rules, nor does fluff != business decisions. Simply because they state the Lizards are pulling back, this doesn't mean they can't reverse course and join the young ones against chaos. If you note, there's lots and lots of people becoming avatars of the winds of magic ; my thinking on reading more of the book is that the avatars of the winds are going to have a grand fight with the chaos gods, and i think that Tetto'ekko (sp!?) is part of that, and will draw the lizards back in.

Just my thinking. I think that will play out more in Skaven book, personally.

Privateer openly stated Cult of Cyriss would never be a faction. Until they released them saying "they're not a faction, really, as they won't be regularly updated".

-- Haight

 thedarkavenger wrote:

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

In Nagash it's heavily hinted that Drakenfels is one of the Nine Mortarchs. So far, they have not done anything with that.

As far as throwing up my hands, I've had this sort of convo before. It's a waste of time.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

In Nagash it's heavily hinted that Drakenfels is one of the Nine Mortarchs. So far, they have not done anything with that.

As far as throwing up my hands, I've had this sort of convo before. It's a waste of time.

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Its all a good read - I just treat it as an alternative reality of the Warhammer world

 Mr Morden wrote:

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Yeah, I noticed that too. Again, it's sad that nothing will be done with it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Yeah, I noticed that too. Again, it's sad that nothing will be done with it.

I was in two minds - love to see her mentioned more but afraid what they would actually do with her character...or Melissa etc

 Mr Morden wrote:

I was in two minds - love to see her mentioned more but afraid what they would actually do with her character...or Melissa etc

Yeah, true, their treatment of Vlad has been depressingly inconsistent to the point of schizophrenia between the novel and the codex.

The novels arent canon and are written by different people *shrug*

chaos0xomega wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

No. It's a familiar, yet alien presence. For someone who has met humans, he'd know. Plus they've already revealed Karl Franz. Plus it was beasts that went to the empire.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The novels arent canon and are written by different people *shrug*

Who apparently can't communicate? Very sad if true tbh?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

No. It's a familiar, yet alien presence. For someone who has met humans, he'd know. Plus they've already revealed Karl Franz. Plus it was beasts that went to the empire.

You need to reread the book then, Im looking at it now. Beasts went "East" which is just a vague direction, Heavens is EXPLICITLY stated to have anchored in the Empire (p138 last paragraph of 1st column), the presence that Teclis refers to isnt the anchor point but rather "an intelligence at work within Azyr's essence" (Azyr being the name of the wind), which if I had to guess was Sigmar. Also if you cross reference the date of events between Khaine and Glottkin you will see that Karl Franz died and ascended to living godhood in the same year as Teclis bound the magics, in other words, the stories occur simultaneously.

I love The End Times its what i always wanted for warhammer.

The first 2/3rds of Khaine takes place at the same time as Nagash, and the last 1/3 takes place at the same time as Glotkin.

Re: Lizards. In Nagash it states that "the exodus has begun" and doesn't say where they're going. I don't remember them even being mentioned in Glotkin.

If i had to guess? All the races in the game currently seem to be getting pushed into the Old World. The Ogres are being forced west, the Dark Elves abandoned Naggaroth, the High Elves had to leave Ulthuan... I think thats where the Lizards will end up, too.



Re: all the comments about how events in End Times dont make sense compared to army book fluff.

They do, but only the 8th Edition army books, which going back as far as Vampire Counts have had hints and suggestions planted in them that have played out in End Times.

What Micky said. GW has been sewing the seeds of the End Times for the past edition it seems, looks like its finally ready for harvesting.

Also agreed with his statement re: The Old World, which on the one hand is fine since 90% of the action takes place in the Old World anyway, but there was so much unexplored territory (and I dont mean that as in unknown so much as I mean it in the sense that its never discussed in great detail) ans potentially interesting things they could have done with those areas of the setting which is seemingly unlikely to ever come to fruition now.

It makes me wonder though what the goal is in causing such a geographical realignment? Like I could understand if they wanted to add new factions, if that were the case then freeing up some space would make sense, but otherwise... leaving the elves in naggaroth and/or ulthuan, and the lizardmen in lustria, and the ogres in the mountains of mourn wouldnt have impacted gameplay at all.

They've killed off all the factions that aren't currently in production.
I'm not sure if there is room for any more factions, from the looks of it, they just want to condense everything,,,, in a somewhat badass way.

Thanks
Austin

@Haight, What a post! An exalt for you!

I think it's very, very interesting. Having just bought a bunch of new Wood Elves and Dwarfs this summer (and the hardcover army books), I am deeply hoping that they will still be useful and playable armies. If it becomes more of an "Allied Contingent" game like in 40k (or Storm of Magic, for that matter) I have no problem with that whatsoever. I think getting a bunch of armies on the (big) table together and going at it with friends is one of the funnest things about the game, and all of this seems to lead to that type of game play.

Someone owns Nagash and some Undead? Well, let's team up against him with some Empire, Bretonnia, and Dwarfs. Or: Chaos is invading. Let's get some Ogres and Orcs & Goblins together and fight them off. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Kislev's loss is sad to me...as a DA fan ...but they have definitely been moving away from products that aren't that popular. Border Princes and Regiments of Renown are clearly gone now, and no, they are never gong to develop a "Cathay" or Samurai army (one of my old dreams), but there are clearly a lot of things to be excited about happening, and it does look like they are going to continue to happen for a while.

I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

After getting my copy of Khaine, which I've only started, my guesses:


-Progress timeline to the dawn of Rhana Daedra itself
-Armies come from Factions, which can be multiple books and possibly data slates
-Magic imports 40k's 4+-pee-charge method (all spells I saw were a multiple of 5, and in places the power level was an annotation, not a rule)
-Rules support models-as-sold only. Things like the Dark Eldar archon only getting power swords - no spears! - being implemented in the books (bye bye Standardbearer with Halbred?).
-Model options being substantially trimmed

Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

-Armies come from Factions, which can be multiple books and possibly data slates
I'm not opposed to this. As long as it's done with caution (no stupid 40k matrix). If they go as they have been (Undead, Chaos, Elves, Rumoured Brets+Empire for Men). I understand people like their separate books but let's face it. Having 15 different books makes it impossible to try & balance while keeping an army from going unupdated for 5+ years. Condensing them into 9 will make this easier. Data slates, while annoying at $5 per, make it so that your army gets updates more frequently without having to wait years to get anything new. Plus if they do them like nagash or the morghasts you don't need to buy the dataslate. The new rules are included with the model.

-Magic imports 40k's 4+-pee-charge method (all spells I saw were a multiple of 5, and in places the power level was an annotation, not a rule)
Dear god please no. Fantasys casting system works FINE. If anything 40k should change over to mimic ours.

-Rules support models-as-sold only. Things like the Dark Eldar archon only getting power swords - no spears! - being implemented in the books (bye bye Standardbearer with Halbred?).
Doubtful. The issue with 40k is chapter house. If GW doesn't make a model, chapter house can and will. 40k is MUCH easier to defend in court because it's unique. Currently we saw Dark Eldar lose all special characters that do not have a specific model, Dark Elves on the other hand still have Tullaris and Kourhan. This comes down to defensibility of IP. Fantasy makes that very hard because "Evil Elf" or "Mummy captain" or even "Dwarf Engineer" are too generic while "Space evil elf" really only comes from one place. Basically if it's in D&D GW can't sue people for making a model for it.


-Model options being substantially trimmed
Again I'm skeptical. Yes in 8th we lost many book specific magic items but we greatly expanded generic magic items. Also to be fair, MOST of the book specific ones never saw use. They were too gimmicky or just plain bad.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

Considering that the advertising campaign for this is "Warhammer Fantasy will never be the same again", and they havent actually deleted any factions or models (only those units and characters which they dont have models for), Im inclined to think that the End Times will have more of a lasting impact than you realize.

chaos0xomega wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
I think the books just an expansion, I doubt it will actually mean much for future editions of the game. Perhaps the fluff in 9th edition will be a bit different. GW aren't just going to come along and start deleting factions and models. Everybody knows that "lore" for these things isn't meant to be in anyway coherent. Look at all that Star Wars Stuff. Lore is soft, hazy and squishy, it is not desirable that it become rock solid.

The game isn't really set in a "fixed" time period. You can play before the "end of times" during and after. As I said the whole thing is incompletely fuzzy. Why the hell are a bunch of wood elves fighting desert dwelling skeletons in a baron iceland?


At the end of the day GW treads a delicate line between consistency of models/factions and creating new content to try and get people to buy things. Lets face it, having a 17th century army(emprie) next to a 14th century army (bretonnia) would look silly and GW knows it...

Considering that the advertising campaign for this is "Warhammer Fantasy will never be the same again", and they havent actually deleted any factions or models (only those units and characters which they dont have models for), Im inclined to think that the End Times will have more of a lasting impact than you realize.

I've come to terms with this now.
So far the fluff is good.
I'm just worried about combined books, and if I'll be able to run a mono-bretonnian army.

Thanks
Austin

Warhammer has had combined books before, so its nothing to be too concerned about, and I would imagine mono builds will still be possible (much in the same way that chaos warriors/daemons can be built as monogod lists), but I wouldn't expect lists to be balanced around monobuilds.

Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

It really thought they were going to give the 40k Avatar of Khaine some WHFB rules. Perhaps they were going to do that, but something kept it from quite working right?

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

They couldn't figure out how to mould Ariel's sleeves properly...

Regarding Lizardmen, there are jungles in the far south of the old World, some of which have abandoned Lizardman temple-cities in them. Tichi Huichi's Raiders spawned from one of them.

Technically speaking those arent in the Old World anymore as the Old World is defined as anything West of the Worlds Edge and North of the Badlands/Sea of Whatever

At some point, Mazdamundi is going to rearrange the continents.


Cuz why the heck give him a spell that does that and then not use it.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Was there a reason why GW didn't release some new models for Khaine? Doesn't seem smart not to considering the other End Times armies got ones. Some new special characters (Malekith and the Avatar of Khaine at least!) along with a new unit or two - one from each faction would have been awesome.

It was supposed to be the Khaine stuff in the DE release, but that was pushed foward for some reason, which is why Dark Elves got a larger release with their book.

Loving the End Times so far, the advance in the story is well written(for GW) and i think it is making things more interesting especially for players like my gaming group who play casual(no internet power builds) theme army style.

Im especially keen on the Elves becoming less black and white, more of a murky alliance/boundries.

Obviously it was never going to please everyone but for most of my gaming group(one player who is extremely against it, although he admits he has never read it) it has only boosted our Fantasy love.

I just hope the last two books live up to the first three.

Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
End Times has ruined WHFB. Not so much the rules changes. But the big guys.

Allow me to put it into perspective. I took a cauldron based gunline to a game vs Nagash. Four Bolt Throwers and 30 crossbows. All rerolling all failed to wound rolls.

Yet, the only method I had to reliably kill Nagash was to six dice final transmutation and hope he rolled the six.


Fluffwise, I love it.

Ruleswise, I'm not too fond, but I can deal with it.

KFA and Nagash can eat all the bags of dicks in the world.

And the new elf gak can finish off the bag...

 Hubris wrote:


Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

Play a Tilean mercenary company that was out of the country when it was overrun. Simple, easy.

 Micky wrote:

 Hubris wrote:


Edit: I do have some minor fluff complaints about the loss of Tilea especially, as one of my original armies was Dogs of War but i get what GW seem to be doing, trying to bring everyone to the Old World.

I can still do a Tilea themed army if i ever want to go back to them, just changes their background to be more in line with the post End Times story.

Play a Tilean mercenary company that was out of the country when it was overrun. Simple, easy.

That is my plan, if it stays a Skaven kingdom, i like the idea of a small mercenary army trying to reclaim their home town/city.

I was upset at first but quickly realised i could adapt and enjoy the new fluff, the same freedom for our creativity exists to build our theme armies, it just has different boundries now.

I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Errrr......its GW. What were you expecting?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Errrr......its GW. What were you expecting?

Have an exalt!

Thanks
Austin

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

Why would your copy of High Elves (which you bought 1-2 years after release) be obsolete next year? The new edition won't be out until the middle of next year and the new army book won't be out for years. Bretonnia hasn't had a new book since 2003. They'll get one next year, but its not like they're going to get another one the year after that.

You also don't have to play the newest edition. Feel free to play sixth, seventh, or eight edition during ninth edition. Personally I'm trying to scoop up the old stuff for cheap on eBay. Partially because I might trying playing the older versions. Partially because I feel like collecting them since sixth is the edition I started in. Then partially because I'd like to have a wider pool of resources to draw from when I write my fan edition.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I've been reading some people were upset the late of updates and such, but what has been annoying me is things have been updating way too fast. (Just like 40K)

I JUST GOT the High Elf book and now it's looking like within a year it will be obsolete (if it ain't already)

Just make a book for each army ONCE and work on making a good edition, and then LEAVE IT ALONE!

I got into WHFB cause it looked like the rules set was stable for the moment and I could get used to it and collect and play.

It's becoming like Madden, every year got to burn 60 bucks on the book, and probably the starter set of the next edition. JUST TO PLAY!.

It's not obsolete.

You can still completely play a legal army out of that book, including special characters.

Khaine just moves the fluff along, and note, if you play khaine lists, you must choose to pick a host of Aestyrion / Phoenix King / Eterinty King.

Nothing about army book: High Elves has been wallpapered in any way. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it hasn't yet.

You can 100% Play Alarielle the radiant or teclis out of High Elves without issue ; if you choose to play Alarielle Avatar of Isha, you must play Host of the Phoenix King, and if you play Alarielle Incarnate of Life, you must play Eternity King. If anything, the two are exclusive of one another, not in any complementary (and therefore making the army book obsolete).

Hellebron sided with malekith....against morathi.

I love the new end times books, the magic is pretty much the same from Storm of Magic with a few minor twinks.

Personally, I love the elves being united. I finally get to bring crossbows to the table as HE player.

I think it is high time that GW finally started progressing the storyline. The stalemate has been going on for sometime. I like seeing the fact that heroes across the world who have been around countless editions start dropping like flies. It echoes the end is upon us, see your greatest leaders stumble and fall. I think for once I actually agree that this is a great step forward for GW.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Hellebron sided with malekith....against morathi.

I love the new end times books, the magic is pretty much the same from Storm of Magic with a few minor twinks.

Personally, I love the elves being united. I finally get to bring crossbows to the table as HE player.

I think it is high time that GW finally started progressing the storyline. The stalemate has been going on for sometime. I like seeing the fact that heroes across the world who have been around countless editions start dropping like flies. It echoes the end is upon us, see your greatest leaders stumble and fall. I think for once I actually agree that this is a great step forward for GW.

So GW has made an entire a game an arms race. And you say this is a good thing?

Currently, beyond taking Malekith the Eternity King, Elves, have no way of dealing with KFA or Nagash. Those two models can walk through most elf armies. Even 8 bolt throwers within 6" of a cauldron don't kill Nagash/KFA.

And that is in no way a good thing for the game.

If GW had just made the End Times fluff, then it would be the greatest thing ever, but making it rules has ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

I don't plan on using the lists in End times Khaine, and the magic unless the other player asks. Its like Serpent Spam in 40k. Yes I can, but why intentionally ruin the game? If my opponent wants to, it probably wouldn't be that great a game anyways.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

Ruined the way YOU play the game. You like to "break" the game & take uber competitive lists. Some of us don't. If you're making multiple people concede on turn 2 maybe you should be less concerned with your W/L and more concerned about making sure your opponent also has fun. Or, find more skilled opponents to play against.

I get it, you're a tournament player & allegedly a "good" one. Warhammer is not ruined, my group has been having more fun than ever. Maybe the uber competitive tournament scene is hurt by this but so what? Change comp to equal it out. GW has stated & their rules seem to show they are making the game for casual & narrative play. NOT for cutthroat tournament play. If you want to do that style of play you'll need to patch their rules to work with your system.

Remember the lesson in Jurrasic Park "You're so concerned with whether you could, you didn't stop to think if you should." Yes the rules may ALLOW for you to bring Morathi in a 1,200 point game. However depending on your opponent that doesn't mean you SHOULD bring morathi in a 1,200 point game. If they want to play that, more power to them, but I wouldn't bring that level of power to a casual pick-up game without at least asking my opponent if it's ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I don't plan on using the lists in End times Khaine, and the magic unless the other player asks. Its like Serpent Spam in 40k. Yes I can, but why intentionally ruin the game? If my opponent wants to, it probably wouldn't be that great a game anyways.

Have you used it? Your tone suggest you haven't. It's honestly not that bad, give it a try first. I thought the same way & having tried it I don't mind it.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
ruined the game. Especially with the new magic rules. My Aestyrion forces have made multiple people concede on turn 2. And that's not even a bent army.

Ruined the way YOU play the game. You like to "break" the game & take uber competitive lists. Some of us don't. If you're making multiple people concede on turn 2 maybe you should be less concerned with your W/L and more concerned about making sure your opponent also has fun. Or, find more skilled opponents to play against.

I get it, you're a tournament player & allegedly a "good" one. Warhammer is not ruined, my group has been having more fun than ever. Maybe the uber competitive tournament scene is hurt by this but so what? Change comp to equal it out. GW has stated & their rules seem to show they are making the game for casual & narrative play. NOT for cutthroat tournament play. If you want to do that style of play you'll need to patch their rules to work with your system.

Remember the lesson in Jurrasic Park "You're so concerned with whether you could, you didn't stop to think if you should." Yes the rules may ALLOW for you to bring Morathi in a 1,200 point game. However depending on your opponent that doesn't mean you SHOULD bring morathi in a 1,200 point game. If they want to play that, more power to them, but I wouldn't bring that level of power to a casual pick-up game without at least asking my opponent if it's ok..

How can I deal with Nagash at 2400?

8 bolt throwers won't kill him.

The ONLY tactic I have is to dwellers/purple sun/pit/final trans him and hope he rolls the six. The same goes for KFA. Or any other End Times combat character.

That is not something which allows for skilled gameplay.

Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Well, Tyrion can. If he reaches melee.

It helps if you also have a high mage that starts unforging / draining / deadlocking Nagash.

I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

 tenebre wrote:
I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

My treemen always get killed as soon as they peek out from behind cover :(

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Well, Tyrion can. If he reaches melee.

It helps if you also have a high mage that starts unforging / draining / deadlocking Nagash.

Tyrion doesn't have enough attacks to kill Nagash. And Nagash can kill Tyrion.

Unless you mean the Avatar of Khaine Tyrion, who isn't actually in an elf book.

Short of getting VERY lucky, Nagash, or god forbid KFA, will walk through an elf army, untouched. Unless you have a super model from an End Times book, you can't touch them. The only thing I can do is put someone with the BOTWD in there and hope I don't run away or roll any 1s short of taking The Eternity King/Avatar of Khaine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tenebre wrote:
I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

Then you got very very lucky.

This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

To tell the truth, that mostly speaks volumes about the bloodthirster's relative power

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

Rolling averagely, 8 bolt throwers within 6" of a cauldron don't kill Nagash before he hits combat. At which point he just beats anything bar Malekith/Tyrion, and I don't use those kinds of models, on the grounds of it being a punch to the face of anyone who has to play against them. Regardless of skill, they will beat you if pushed forward.

I do not have the Nasgash book nor played anyone that has that model so forgive I do not know his stats.

But If i remember correctly, Lore of light could hurt him in a bad way with a couple of good rolls, even under the new magic rules. I understand its frustrating, hell I hate fighting my friends' dwarves who run straight gunline with longbeards in the middle (god-forsaken stunted bearded fools). BotWD can be a big help against him.

Actually, TDA, you can't field 8 bolt throwers. You have to respect the normal unit restrictions because you can only take 4 of them if you field a dark elves army, or a high elves army. The 3 EoT elven lists are neither. So max is... 5? IIRC.

Edit - and indeed, a coven melts Nagash, using the new magic rules. With some planning and using a couple of wood elves items (moonstone and acorn, if you want to be sure) you can even make it so that Nagash will have a hard time when trying to deny line of sight to the coven.

Vetril wrote:
Actually, TDA, you can't field 8 bolt throwers. You have to respect the normal unit restrictions because you can only take 4 of them if you field a dark elves army, or a high elves army. The 3 EoT elven lists are neither. So max is... 5? IIRC.

The end time book states that you use the units from the dark elf book, but ignore the army special rules. It even says, and this is a bunch of direct quotes, "you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves, Warhammer: High Elves, or Warhammer: Wood Elves books." And "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

In the DE book there is this: "A Dark Elf army may include up to 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers, and up to 8 in a Grand Army".
High elves bolt thrower is the same.

Pick one of two options:

1. the text above is an army special rule, and so it is not used. You are not allowed to use it because "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

2. the text above is only a special rule, and so is used (per this quote: "you must use [...] and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves [...] book"). The Host of the Eternity King (for example) is not a Dark Elf army, so the rule condition isn't satisfied.

I'd say 2 is the case at hand.

Vetril wrote:
In the DE book there is this: "A Dark Elf army may include up to 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers, and up to 8 in a Grand Army".
High elves bolt thrower is the same.

Pick one of two options:

1. the text above is an army special rule, and so it is not used. You are not allowed to use it because "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

2. the text above is only a special rule, and so is used (per this quote: "you must use [...] and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves [...] book"). The Host of the Eternity King (for example) is not a Dark Elf army, so the rule condition isn't satisfied.

It's a unit special rule. Not an army special rule. And the Khaine book states that the only thing you don't use is what's listed under the army special rules section. Everything else is as it is in the book.

You use it's special rules as donated by the (DE). The HotEK is simply the books used in conjunction with all the special rules from each book.

Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

Vetril wrote:
Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

It's a dark elf unit, used as a unit from the dark elf army, in an army that uses the dark, high, and wood elf army books.

The dark elf army is still valid, at no point does the HotEK make the books invalid.

By the same token, if we say that unit special rules don't apply, nowhere in any of the Khaine army lists does it list that elves have ASF. Does that mean that they lose it?

Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

Vetril wrote:
Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

So they don't get ASF then. Got it. Cool.

What part of the whole "Host of the Eternity king uses the dark, high, and wood elf armies" is unclear to you?

An elf complaining they can't beat Nagash?

Honestly, anyone would think Hagsbane Arrows weren't a thing or something...

I think avenger was having a rage quit moment. I think if you really put the fight to him, he would topple just like any other undead. I mean come on, a man beat him to death...literally a man (Sigmar), but still he was a man at the time.

As for battling him, Lore of light...like seriously.

Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 2d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

If Nagash is used properly, you have 1, maybe two turns to actually deal with him. My regular opponent plays him. And I've been playing Delfs since the 6th ed book, and winning with them even then. I can outplay him all the time and still lose because he pushes a nigh unkillable model forward.

You need a polar opposite to deal with Nagash. My Empire can do it, but that's because it's double banishment(S6&7) and cannonspam. It's literally a polar opposite to those lists. And I don't play that list anymore because it requires as much skill as fielding Nagash, I.E. None.

I totally agree with you Ventril. There is many viable ways to take him down. I disdain using warmachines as much as possible due to unreasonable anger towards dwarves (it's reasonable). So I use magic to work the variables for me.

As I said, if I play against Nagash I merely take the Acorn, the Moonstone, and a light coven to teleport around. Turn 2 I can start spamming Banishment on him.

Nagash is still fun to play against though. The funniest way me and my friends have been playing him is with a zombie horde. Consider that he can now spam a summon spell that gives him 50 zombies to put down on the table, per casting.
It quickly gets out of control

Vetril wrote:
As I said, if I play against Nagash I merely take the Acorn, the Moonstone, and a light coven to teleport around. Turn 2 I can start spamming Banishment on him.

Nagash is still fun to play against though. The funniest way me and my friends have been playing him is with a zombie horde. Consider that he can now spam a summon spell that gives him 50 zombies to put down on the table, per casting.
It quickly gets out of control

So you're saying the way to deal with Nagash is to use magic. So you now have to roll enough dice to get the spell off, cast it successfully, hope he dispels it, and hope you roll enough to get through his armour/ward?

That's not a reliable way to deal with him.

You need to roll 5+ to cast Banishment with a spellweaver. That's not hard to do with 2 dice. Even if you roll a 1, you can still pull it off 33% of the time.
A decent coven will deny the armor save, and the ward save will save 1 wound out of 4. Considering you can't dispel everything with the new rules (you don't have enough dice), Nagash will melt. The only way it can survive is if you get unlucky and fail to cast Banishment early in the magic phase. Even then I'd switch to Shem, to at least weaken him for shooting and for the next turn.
Plus, this approach beats your Final Transmutation strategy.

Vetril wrote:
You need to roll 5+ to cast Banishment with a spellweaver. That's not hard to do with 2 dice. Even if you roll a 1, you can still pull it off 33% of the time.
A decent coven will deny the armor save, and the ward save will save 1 wound out of 4. Considering you can't dispel everything with the new rules (you don't have enough dice), Nagash will melt. The only way it can survive is if you get unlucky and fail to cast Banishment early in the magic phase. Even then I'd switch to Shem, to at least weaken him for shooting and for the next turn.
Plus, this approach beats your Final Transmutation strategy.

Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.


A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.

A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

+5 to cast. You teleport inside woods. If you drop him to 1 or 2 wounds, you can try to finish him with shooting.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.

A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

+5 to cast. You teleport inside woods. If you drop him to 1 or 2 wounds, you can try to finish him with shooting.

So you're dicing off then? That's not reliable. Nor is relying on Ballistic shooting without rerolls to wound.

It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

Vetril wrote:
It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

He blocks the banishments. He has the dice to make sure of that. Nothing else in the magic phase threatens him with light councils.

And heaven forbid we exchange Nagash for KFA.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


How can I deal with Nagash at 2400?

8 bolt throwers won't kill him.

The ONLY tactic I have is to dwellers/purple sun/pit/final trans him and hope he rolls the six. The same goes for KFA. Or any other End Times combat character.

That is not something which allows for skilled gameplay.

@TDA here's a simple solution for how to deal with it:

Don't!

If you don't like that flavour of cheese, don't deal with it. Ask your opponent to not bring nagash/KFA at that low points level. Just be aware some people also don't like your flavour and you may need to give some concessions on your end such as not taking 8 bolt throwers, but that's the point. Have a dialog & ensure you're both having fun, there has to be some give if you want to take away those bigguns.

My opponents are mostly OK with nagash at 2400 but usually request we play at 3k (no grand armies) so they have more ways to deal with him. That's a dialog. I want to field nagash, they want to play more points so he's less impactful. We agree & play. Granted theres 2 players who hate nagash & don't enjoy playing against him. So I don't take him against them.

My point is if you don't want to play that level of competitive, simply don't. I have seen local tournaments say "No single character over 700 pts" this eliminates KFA & Nagash but still allows for mortarchs & maggoths. Again I feel you ignore parts of peoples statement just to make what you want to say. Remember that GW in their official words does not make or balance the game for tournament play. I like how you changed the word "competitive" and "tournament" to "skilled". I have skilled games even when I'm outnumbered 2:1 on points. It's fun to try out a narrative and it takes skill not to just get crushed by turn 2/3, even if I know there's a very slim if not no chance of me winning. I personally tend to avoid tournaments because I think it puts the emphasis on winning over just having fun. Not to say tournaments aren't fun but I find, for some people, the mindset switches to be too focused on winning even if it comes at the expense of both sides having fun. It rewards players for taking the filthiest list & tabling their opponent turn 2, that's not fun to me no matter what side I'm on so I don't play that type of game. If that's how you have fun in warhammer that is perfectly OK, just find someone who feels similar but don't cry when they take the filthiest list & crush you. Either comp yourselves or find a game that IS designed for tournament play.

If playing End Times characters is not fun for you, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to play against them you have the ability to A.) talk with your opponent beforehand and come to an agreement or B.) find a new opponent. Remember just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. This applies to all sides.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Vetril wrote:
It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

He blocks the banishments. He has the dice to make sure of that. Nothing else in the magic phase threatens him with light councils.

And heaven forbid we exchange Nagash for KFA.

You don't cast anything else. Only Banishment.

I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

Airships FTW!

I would love to see an airship in WHFB. Gotrek and Felix rode on one in a couple of books if I remember right. I think that the next book will be about skaven and dwarves. That would add to the already horrific times that are occuring.

Vetril wrote:Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

Vetril wrote:Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

I'm starting to suspect you're the reason Malekith is so angry.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'm starting to suspect you're the reason Malekith is so angry.

Why do you think I play the cool variety of elves?

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

The Novels do have huge Golems the Dwarves use gainst Chaos which sound fun - but not them AND airships make a hell of a thing to drop on the enemy

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

Dwarves don't have any multi-wound monsters like every other army, so a war golem would fit quite well. I'm not sure if they would make it a monster or more along the lines of monstrous infantry.

Not sure about an airship - seeing as they already have copters and bombers.

I'd rather it be a monster. I don't want dwarf centurions.

Because if there's one thing every game needs, its a big FU to plop down in the middle when playing that guy you just don't like...

On a less pessimistic note, more options should be a good thing. I floated the idea of fielding my 40k Avatar as Tyrion once, just to try it. But Id rather if Dragons were the top of the scale in WHFB. If I wanted bigger 'n better, I'd play with action figures. Core (and 40k troops) *should* matter.

Troops still do matter. Remember that big monster has no ranks. Steadfast + BSB + General somewhere nearish means I can tie up your 600+ point big nasty for 2-4 turns with a 200 point infantry block.

Vetril wrote:Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
.

See, that's what you're going wrong. You're only fielding a single tiny unit of Glade Guard, when you could be fielding three or four units of a decent size... or even maybe Scouts.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Hahahahahaha. Are you joking me? HE and DE are the two best books in the game right now, period. You have so many tools for dealing with stuff like Nagash that it's ridiculous.

For instance, smash something with Banner of the World Dragon into him and he'll just kersplode. He'll do no wounds against their 2++ and die to combat res if he doens't get killed straight up.

Dark Elves have witches (poison: he's only got a 4+4++), bolt throwers, dark magic (boosted doombolt), peg heroes...heck even Execs could take him down.

Just have some imagination. None of these new characters are particularly ridiculous. A guy in our club runs KFA and he's lost him in 5 out of the past 8 games. The sky is not falling. Think. Adapt. Move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

I think the whole fluffy side of thing has some sticking points. I still don't buy malekith as the new phoenix king. Sorry just not me. But overall its a change that made this hobby exciting for me.

I played in 6th (the warbook with teclis on cover 2002?)

To start of my collection since I just do not like the new phoenix guard. (Their helmet crests are too big...) So I just bought a box of the old metal phoenix guards.

Point of this is, that no matter what happens you can just keep fielding the army you want. And just pretend the fluff never happened.

I personally have an opinion that et will climax with the old world being destroyed/reshaped

I also hope that nippon army happens.

I hope Lizards aren't gone! They were my first WFB army.

Not a huge fan of End Times so far, but we'll see how it shakes out. A smaller Old World might be a good thing, if it means everything gets supported.

Aesthetically though, rolling stylistically different armies (like Brets and Empire) together would be pretty jarring on the battle field. Same for Big Hat Elves and Spiky Elves.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Hahahahahaha. Are you joking me? HE and DE are the two best books in the game right now, period. You have so many tools for dealing with stuff like Nagash that it's ridiculous.

For instance, smash something with Banner of the World Dragon into him and he'll just kersplode. He'll do no wounds against their 2++ and die to combat res if he doens't get killed straight up.

Dark Elves have witches (poison: he's only got a 4+4++), bolt throwers, dark magic (boosted doombolt), peg heroes...heck even Execs could take him down.

Just have some imagination. None of these new characters are particularly ridiculous. A guy in our club runs KFA and he's lost him in 5 out of the past 8 games. The sky is not falling. Think. Adapt. Move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

So, what you're saying is that to do well against a summoning army, we have to use all our points to kill one model? Right, I think I'm actually going to dismiss anything you say in the future, as you clearly don't know the meta.

Elves aren't the best two armies out there right now. It's still, and will be, Warriors and Empire. Any army that has zero weak choices, and several strong choices for every phase will always be top.

Take away Bolt throwers and Warlocks, and you cut any dark elf army from being competitive. Take away the Bolt throwers and White Lions, and the high elves only have one competitive build left.

I don't get this End Times stuff.
I mean, can the new End Times units be used in any army, or can it only be used in an End Times army? I don't get it.

I think the name speaks for itself; those are the End Times for Warhammer Battle.

There is nothing to wait from the rules. This is just a toy so that all the Battle fanboys can spend their shinies in worthless things.

I still can't believe what they did with the elves. This is not Apocalypse; this is just GW mocking their customers about their stupidity.

 Sarouan wrote:
I think the name speaks for itself; those are the End Times for Warhammer Battle.

There is nothing to wait from the rules. This is just a toy so that all the Battle fanboys can spend their shinies in worthless things.

I still can't believe what they did with the elves. This is not Apocalypse; this is just GW mocking their customers about their stupidity.

I quite like the ET fluff. The rules are an abortion.

Can't keep up with old codices, but printing new books that have almost nothing to do with anything else? GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's a bit flippant, but I mean come on! They could have spent all this time doing a new Skaven book or a new Brettonians... Nope instead were doing EoT and putting rules for new models in WD...

darkcloak wrote:
Can't keep up with old codices, but printing new books that have almost nothing to do with anything else? GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's a bit flippant, but I mean come on! They could have spent all this time doing a new Skaven book or a new Brettonians... Nope instead were doing EoT and putting rules for new models in WD...

I'm totally in agreement with this. I mean, the End Times is pretty cool and, although I don't like the fact it's not an expansion, it has taken the game in some interesting new directions, plus advanced the storyline, which I know has made a lot of people happy.

However, I don't want this stuff to replace the normal, run-of-the-mill army books and "normal" rules (the backbone of the game) which really make the game what it is. This new Skaven End Times book, plus the models it contains, will be a great companion (and sales boost) for a new Skaven Army Book. However, if it replaces one, I'm afraid my support for the End Times will drop to a new low.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

I think you don't play wood elves. You are missing the fact that glade guard is not very mobile, fold really fast under any kind of pressure, and is expensive in points. Glade guard's role is not to go out and shoot Nagash, because all those shots will be wasted, while they could be put to good use somewhere else.
FYI, I have no problem killing Nagash with elves, as I said in that quoted post, so maybe you want to read the content more carefully.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


So, what you're saying is that to do well against a summoning army, we have to use all our points to kill one model? Right, I think I'm actually going to dismiss anything you say in the future, as you clearly don't know the meta.

Elves aren't the best two armies out there right now. It's still, and will be, Warriors and Empire. Any army that has zero weak choices, and several strong choices for every phase will always be top.

Take away Bolt throwers and Warlocks, and you cut any dark elf army from being competitive. Take away the Bolt throwers and White Lions, and the high elves only have one competitive build left.

Nagash IS the army. Everything else in the list is support pieces to make him more effective. Take out those and you mitigate him substantially. Take him out and the UL player loses. If you lose half your army doing it then that's just fine, because whatever you have left will mop him up easily (notwithstanding anything scary that he's raised). Calculating what a couple hundred points of shooting at him does is stupid, since 100% of your shooting will be either directed at him or his hierotitan/casket all game.

As for the Elves, firstly you're forgetting about frost phoenixes which are hands down the best unit in that book. White lions are slow and easily mitigated as well, which is why in uncomped you're more likely to see silverhelms carrying the BotWD over the white lions. I only ever see WL in Swedish these days, as a unit of 20 or so with the banner is till quite cheap.

As for DE, they also have incredibly cheap and hitty masters going for them, a very solid lore in Dark magic, excellent fast cav in core, witch elves which give many opponents serious headaches, and execs which are some of the best elite infantry in the game (not that elite infantry is very much in the spotlight these days).

Warriors of Chaos are overplayed everywhere, but they're only strong on paper. Their playstyle is too monodimensional to succeed in an uncomped meta. They only really excel in Swedish, where they can get away with murder so long as they don't have chariots in core. Empire are a solid army, but no way are they above the two elf books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:

I think you don't play wood elves. You are missing the fact that glade guard is not very mobile, fold really fast under any kind of pressure, and is expensive in points. Glade guard's role is not to go out and shoot Nagash, because all those shots will be wasted, while they could be put to good use somewhere else.
FYI, I have no problem killing Nagash with elves, as I said in that quoted post, so maybe you want to read the content more carefully.

I do not, but I do play undead and have plenty of experience playing AGAINST the WE. Every wound that GG chip off Nagash is one more spell he's not casting on Undeath raising up new units. Though you're right: they're much better off shooting at his support pieces who don't have the same sort of saves. But once you've killed his hierotitan and casket (turn 1 or 2 latest) you can start putting pressure on the big guy.

I apologize if I misconstrued your arguments as another anti-Nagash whine. It would seem that I got the wrong impression off the first paragraph of your post and didn't read the rest closely enough to properly gauge the tone. I fully agree with you that Elves really don't have much difficulty taking down Nagash, which is why I was too quick to jump down your throat. Having played WE plenty of times with my VC I can say that they're up there with Light Councils as being among their worst matchups.

I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

 Accolade wrote:
I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

Knowing what GW have done with supplements in the past, it'll fade and be abandoned. Best wait for 9th and see.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
End Times has ruined WHFB. Not so much the rules changes. But the big guys.

Allow me to put it into perspective. I took a cauldron based gunline to a game vs Nagash. Four Bolt Throwers and 30 crossbows. All rerolling all failed to wound rolls.

Yet, the only method I had to reliably kill Nagash was to six dice final transmutation and hope he rolled the six.


Fluffwise, I love it.

Ruleswise, I'm not too fond, but I can deal with it.

KFA and Nagash can eat all the bags of dicks in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNQxlQZfv4
that's an evening right there...bag of dicks...

If there is a dwarf book, with golems or steam suits, I will praise End Times as a huge success, if not, I'll probably go whine in a corner about how its not fair that everyone else has big models.

In terms of it ruining Warhammer, I don't think so. Believe it or not, not everyone had loads of money flying out their arse, and even if Nagash and Kaine and Glotkin are OP, its fine, I only know of two such models being bought in my local area,
and we tend not to play huge points games where you can take them. And if I do encounter such models, I'll just send 2 cannonballs at it a turn until it dies from multiple wounds, and maybe massed organ guns and thunderers as well.

 Accolade wrote:
I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

Start Skaven then. Worst thing that can happen is that you have to discard 2 big models, or use them as counts-as.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
If there is a dwarf book, with golems or steam suits, I will praise End Times as a huge success, if not, I'll probably go whine in a corner about how its not fair that everyone else has big models.

In terms of it ruining Warhammer, I don't think so. Believe it or not, not everyone had loads of money flying out their arse, and even if Nagash and Kaine and Glotkin are OP, its fine, I only know of two such models being bought in my local area,
and we tend not to play huge points games where you can take them. And if I do encounter such models, I'll just send 2 cannonballs at it a turn until it dies from multiple wounds, and maybe massed organ guns and thunderers as well.

The Glottkin are also Initiative 1, meaning you've got a 4/6 chance to kill them with a purple sun or pit. Nagash only has a 4+4++. They're really not that bad.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?404065-Warhammer-And-Now-For-Something-Completely-Different

eek

Hmmm...and Darnok posted that..

Welp, I think I'm going to sit back and wait for whatever madness is on it's way!

 Accolade wrote:
Hmmm...and Darnok posted that..

Welp, I think I'm going to sit back and wait for whatever madness is on it's way!

Agreed, I honestly don't much trust anything off of whineseer alone. Now verify that with some other more reputable rumor mills and I'll bite.

ehhh this is not sounding rosy at all... not in the slightest. And here I was thinking I can pick up where I left of and get that army finished properly this time...

If they make it more skirmish based I'm out.
RNF is the dady of war-gaming for me. :/

I was just about to start Fantasy proper too, now I don't know what to do.

Star anyway. If they radically shift that much (and thats a big IF) plenty of people will still play regular WHFB.

Yeah but I have enough trouble finding games in my area for systems that are supported, let alone unsupported ones.

Im in a similiar boat. I just don't want to end up with "elves" as apposed to HE. It might seem trivial but that's why WHFB appealed to me in the first place.

Well I was looking at Lizardmen, I doubt they'll survive the transisiton. And the whole setting was what appealed to me, if that changes to these 'bubble' things, I don't really know if I'll stay. For a start, I'd be worried they were gonna just drop the game again, I wouldn't have much trust in GW after that.

I'm just glad most of the models I have might survive... (Got some wood elves and some undead, and a carnosaur). It's just a long time to wait to see what's going to happen. I was all excited about fantasy an hour ago and now I feel really flat.

Lizardmen will survive, they're a very defensible IP. Really don't trust anything out of whineseer until it's picked up and verfied by a couple other sources.

convert carnosaurus into dragon mount.. Do eeeeeet...

But I think lizards will make the cut because dinosaurs. Kids love dinosaurs.

The rumour is they're dropping all the models and starting from scratch so i hope they don't actaully invalidate models I do have.

I know it's just rumours and I shouldn't get worked up but it's got me worried.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The rumour is they're dropping all the models and starting from scratch so i hope they don't actaully invalidate models I do have.

I know it's just rumours and I shouldn't get worked up but it's got me worried.

Can;t see them invalidating the old stuff too much, but some of the smaller units that haven;t seen updates for an age will probably disappear.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The rumour is they're dropping all the models and starting from scratch so i hope they don't actaully invalidate models I do have.

I know it's just rumours and I shouldn't get worked up but it's got me worried.

Can;t see them invalidating the old stuff too much, but some of the smaller units that haven;t seen updates for an age will probably disappear.

Hopefully it's just that. I mean hell we might get new zombies!

I would say that GW have played what's left of the whfb fan base, in that they are in the process of selling very expensive large kits which in 6 months will be invalidated.

Anyone who buys anything at the moment is asking to get bent over and gw'ed hard in the near future.

But it will be ok since gw customers are collectors who don't play the game so no worries.

SeanDrake wrote:
I would say that GW have played what's left of the whfb fan base, in that they are in the process of selling very expensive large kits which in 6 months will be invalidated.

Anyone who buys anything at the moment is asking to get bent over and gw'ed hard in the near future.

But it will be ok since gw customers are collectors who don't play the game so no worries.

Wrong, and

SeanDrake wrote:
I would say that GW have played what's left of the whfb fan base, in that they are in the process of selling very expensive large kits which in 6 months will be invalidated.

Anyone who buys anything at the moment is asking to get bent over and gw'ed hard in the near future.

But it will be ok since gw customers are collectors who don't play the game so no worries.

Not at all. Even if nagash is invalidated he becomes a Hierotitan or Necro collossus (monstrous arcanum) or a zombie dragon stand in. Arkhan becomes a lord on abyssal terror / warsphinx. I can use these kits as other things easily. As for the books, ok even if the rules get invalidated it's still an amazing story and while yes a bit expensive I am both a collector & a game player. Hell Ican take the end times lore & turn it into a D&D campaign for my non warhammer friends.

I honestly doubt they will drop the entire game. Coz well.. money.

Probably will shake things up big time.
The "reboot" option isn't all that bad if they consolidate and condense the armies but only if they go on about it the right way.
Otherwise a lot of collectors wont be collecting no moar..

I'm hoping they get rid of LOTR stuff and pour the budget allocation left over from that in WHFB that with he dramatic shift in setting would give them 2 streams of revenue in the wasy of 2 popular war games rather then 3 which equals more like 2.3 of a game...

Maybe making that long overdue nippon army happen... yes. hmhh.. makes so much sense... hmmmhh.. yes,yes.. yes...

I confess I'm not taken by the current batch of rumors. Part of the reason I loved WHFB was that it was more optimistic and diverse than the grimdark of 40K. Heroes could be heroes who made a difference, not martyrs struggling tragically against the inevitable tide of doom. Villains had to work hard for their gains, not just go with the flow and drown civilization in a tide of blood and vile magics.

From a business perspective I understand why GW wants to consolidate the offerings in a less successful product line. The fantasy lines took up a lot of production capacity and shelf space and just wasn't selling in proportion to the resources committed. Makes perfect sense. I also understand why they want to emulate the success of 40K by going more dark and gothic.

Neither approach will work particularly well for me personally, though. Even though I can appreciate the business reasons, I'm disappointed that GW feels it necessary to contract their fantasy universe and make it a grimmer place.

My two teef.

The issue is, and I don't know what GW thinks of it. Is Fantasy & 40k appeal to different people.

Yes there is some spill over but fantasy players tend to be older. Part of 40ks economic success is little johnny who plays dawn of war & wants to go buy space marines. He gets a starter army for christmas, plays for a year or two & gives up, or gets his ass handed to him by eldar and says "oh eldar are good I want them now". Not saying all 40k players do that but I tend to see a lot more turnover with 40k. Not to mention 40k is "cool Halo / Destiny Sci-Fi" and Fantasy is for those nerds who play D&D.

Fantasy tends to get fewer numbers in, but people play longer. I rarely see someone quit fantasy once they're in.

Another issue may be painting and game style. Fantasy players And from what I see, tournaments, tend to reward if not require painted armies. Fantasy also has so much of the strategy in the movement phase (what with shooting being relatively ineffective at killing whole units) meaning a good player with a gakky army can out maneuver a good army with a gak general. In 40k thanks to lots of powerful long range shooting, I can sit in my corner & roll dice at you all game.

This lends 40k to FOTM. The most powerful combos win because player skill is mitigated into list building (in which even a gak player can netlist) and target priority. So if you bring the most cost effective (min:maxed) list, you stand a good chance of winning if you pick the targets in the right order. because of a (comparative) lack of painting requirement you need not invest in your army. new better book comes out, ebay your old stuff & buy new. This keeps revenue up. Whereas fantasy players are less likely to sell entire armies (check ebay for proof) because we learned a playstyle & applying say a dwarf playstyle to a bretonnian list won't work. It's harder to quickly shift armies in fantasy & as such we don't just up and buy whole new armies as often.

This means 40k brings in more cash. BUT if you try to apply 40k to fantasy you will lose a lot of veteran players and it won't get the 40k players to switch. Again this is all just my opinion & speculation but I think it holds at least some weight

i found out today that the end times books are becoming regular stock at all GW stores so no need to worry about not being able to use stuff from them. also speculation from the staff was the 9 if there is a new addition next year would likely be a consolidation of all the new end times rules and expanding it also maybe so skirmish rules added for smaller games

 kencotter wrote:
iskirmish rules added for smaller games

I can see this. Especially with the Mordheim game comming out and the success of Malifaux.

I would definitely be ok with new skirmish rules as an addition, not as a replacement. Easier for people with smaller budgets, I would think.

I dont expect these rumors to be too far from the truth tbh. The initial rumors that End Times would be separate from WHFB 9th were wishful thinking at best.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

I can see this. Especially with the Mordheim game comming out and the success of Malifaux.

thats what i was think too i think if the mordheim game does well enough we could see some either rules added to play it within the core book like killteam in the older editions of 40k or even as a supplement which GW seem keen to do latley and would give them the opportunity to do a new box set like deathstorm etc

toasteroven wrote:I would definitely be ok with new skirmish rules as an addition, not as a replacement. Easier for people with smaller budgets, I would think.

yeah a great way to get new players in aswell i think and an easier cross over from 40k

At first I gave props to GW for advancing Fantasy's story line. But instead of advancing it, now they're destroying it and starting over. One step forward, two steps back.

I would love new official skirmish rules for smaller games. And I think it would be a great boon to the game for introducing new players, especially if it is supported well.

I also think some Warhammer Quest style dungeon rules would be a great way for new players, and rumors are the Skaven End Times book has them.

 Bottle wrote:
I would love new official skirmish rules for smaller games. And I think it would be a great boon to the game for introducing new players, especially if it is supported well.

I also think some Warhammer Quest style dungeon rules would be a great way for new players, and rumors are the Skaven End Times book has them.

i have also heard rumors of a switch to round bases which would support the new skirmish ideas, using the old war of the rings style movment trays for larger games to rank up

I dont see how introducing skirmish style play is going to make this a cheaper start up. Its not like you can just buy 1 spear man, 1 phoenix guard etc unless you get it from ebay. A box of core is still a box of core... When I played whfb there were rules for a skirmish type game with single models anyway so dont see how this is new or going to help.

But meh. Im not fussed. Im hitting the sidelines with whfb. I think a lot of people are feeling same since ebay prices seem to have plummet somewhat.

Anyone have an idea when the new brb will be out ?

 Argive wrote:
I dont see how introducing skirmish style play is going to make this a cheaper start up. Its not like you can just buy 1 spear man, 1 phoenix guard etc unless you get it from ebay. A box of core is still a box of core... When I played whfb there were rules for a skirmish type game with single models anyway so dont see how this is new or going to help.

See, my thinking was... some of the core sets include equipment for a couple of different units. So, say, if I bought I box of skinks, I could make a mix of skinks armed with swords, blowpipes, and javelins, from one box. and other sets have more potential variety.

of course, i've got no idea how any potential skirmish rules are going to work. but my idea was that if it worked that way, you could potentially get a skirmish game going with just a core box from each side. and that would be significantly cheaper than a full army.

 toasteroven wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I dont see how introducing skirmish style play is going to make this a cheaper start up. Its not like you can just buy 1 spear man, 1 phoenix guard etc unless you get it from ebay. A box of core is still a box of core... When I played whfb there were rules for a skirmish type game with single models anyway so dont see how this is new or going to help.

See, my thinking was... some of the core sets include equipment for a couple of different units. So, say, if I bought I box of skinks, I could make a mix of skinks armed with swords, blowpipes, and javelins, from one box. and other sets have more potential variety.

of course, i've got no idea how any potential skirmish rules are going to work. but my idea was that if it worked that way, you could potentially get a skirmish game going with just a core box from each side. and that would be significantly cheaper than a full army.

this exactly most boxsets already make 2 options e.g empire milita has swordsmen, spearmen and halberds in them, wont be hard to start a game most likley it will be 1 hero 1 core boxset and perhaps one monster like the old mordhiem rules buy buying those three kits you have a warband, most warbands needed between 10 -15 guys anyway there is your warband and the start to a larger army. plus they could also do some sort of skermish upgrade sprue that is online exclusive

Ahhh 6th ed warbands.......

Better still introduce free 5 models with starter paint set again.. 1 archer 1 spearman 1 swordman 1 two combat weapon or something..
Thats how I got started. It was not expensive and seemed reasonable.. Once I had that, I had a go at painting and actually owned some minis, then I bought more troops coz I had left over paint and so on

When exactly have they stopped doing this by the way?

that would be perfect and would only cost £20 odd quid.