pinecone77 wrote: Currently "good" units in HtH have Invulns and Top of the line armor saves. We don't. But we do have acid blood! (costs cp) You want to use Lictors, and/or Rippers to "on all fronts" and deploy scamblers, and the like.
If you are careful you can max the secondaries, and if your foe cannot, you can get a win most every time. We may not be "good" at HtH, but we can Infiltrate, Tunnel, and out number just like always.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What Hive Fleet are you planning on running? The two top choices seem to be Kraken for super speed, and Leviathan, or Jormangandr for increased saves, or tricks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are also "custom" Fleets as well.
pinecone77 wrote: Outside of "super competitive" Bugs can do just fine. The main "trap" is that Hth is now a "thing" in 9th, and Nids don't do Hth very well. But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(tm) still works.
The "secret" is play the mission, and only the mission. Nids can do that as well as any.
Don't do hth well? Wow, I really have to check the rules now as I find it hard to believe that we're bad in close combat. The issue used to be getting them there, not what happened when they were there. Below is the collection of models I'm working with; any advice based off of this is really appreciated.
2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
2 Broodlords
10 Warriors, various loadouts
44 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
35 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Exocrine
2 Trygons
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots
Looking at what you have I suggest running some MSU Stealers, and/or MSU Warriors as your base, us the Broodlords as HQ, one with A spine to increase psycher powers and the add in you gaunts and Zoeys and see how it plays.
I'll most likely run Kraken, at least until I get a couple of 9th edition games under my belt as I think that'll be the easiest to play with to start. Staying away from the monsters makes me cry as they're the whole reason I started playing the army. Sounds like a complete reversal of how we played 8th edition and is going to take a lot of games to get used to. It almost makes me just want to hold off to see what the new codex brings.....
Monster are playable, it depends on what you will face. I am holding out hope that our new codex will make Carnfexen back into the fearsom monsters of pld. I don't mind the stats, if they were cheaper I would take them.
So I'm getting into tyranids for casual/narrative games and I have a start collecting and then another start collecting minus the trygon. Would it be better for me to focus on building a horde or are.blast weapons too punishing?
UncleJetMints wrote: So I'm getting into tyranids for casual/narrative games and I have a start collecting and then another start collecting minus the trygon. Would it be better for me to focus on building a horde or are.blast weapons too punishing?
My experience so far has been mixed. Blast weapons do hurt when they pop up, but most people I have played recently have not been taking many of them compared to things that kill heavy infantry and armor. It also depends a bit on how many extra dice you are looking at - a unit with a single D6 shot weapon getting a minimum of 3 shots isn't as annoying as a unit with four individual D3 shot weapons getting a full 12 shots every time.
Biggest threat I've had from blast was from units that have access to a "everyone can throw a grenade" stratagem. The amount of dice thrown in such instances almost always far exceeds what the unit could have put out with their normal ranged weapons (albeit usually at -1 strength).
So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
posermcbogus wrote: So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
It has only ever been scything talons or crushing claws on Tervigons.
Personally I'd stick with the scything talons. Three attacks hitting on a 4+ is bad. But the -1 to hit on the crushing claws changing that to a 5+ is just dismal. Plus they make you pay more points for it.
posermcbogus wrote: So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
It has only ever been scything talons or crushing claws on Tervigons. Personally I'd stick with the scything talons. Three attacks hitting on a 4+ is bad. But the -1 to hit on the crushing claws changing that to a 5+ is just dismal. Plus they make you pay more points for it.
Ah, okay, sounds like some pretty solid logic ahahaha. Cheers very much for the help!
posermcbogus wrote: So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
In 5th (when they were introduced) they had Claws and Teeth by default and could upgrade to Scything Talons or Crushing Claws. In the 6th edition book they dropped the generic Claws and Teeth option for Scything Talons by default and Crushing Claws as an upgrade. They also could take the Miasma Cannon relic for a gun option due to the way relics worked in 6th/7th (basically were extra wargear options for characters with fixed costs) but that option is longer legal.
For the current book, sadly the Massive Scything Talons are in most cases the only weapon worth using. The Crushing Claws -1 to hit is crippling given the Tervigon's poor weaponskill (especially once at half health or lower) and damage-wise the Talons are identical apart from the 2x strength modifier. The one exception is if you are in Crusade where you can give your Tervigon the "ignore hit modifiers" warlord trait without sacrificing adaptive physiology upgrades (or a different Warlord Trait), since at that point you are trading reroll 1's to hit with 2x strength which is more palatable.
posermcbogus wrote: So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
It has only ever been scything talons or crushing claws on Tervigons.
Personally I'd stick with the scything talons. Three attacks hitting on a 4+ is bad. But the -1 to hit on the crushing claws changing that to a 5+ is just dismal. Plus they make you pay more points for it.
Actually, back in 8th, the Tervigon could take a gun. I'd frequently give it the relic guns to make her actually be a threat on the battlefield.
Hello Hive Mind! I have finished another battle report against the new Dark Eldar. I have to face off against a 32 DT liquifier spam army.
Read all about it here:
posermcbogus wrote: So, not owned any 'nid rules since the 8th ed index (which is currently hiding somewhere on my laptop :( ) but have Tervigons ever been able to take anything other than Crushing Claws or Scything Talons, or did I hallucinate that one night? I've just combed through my 7th ed codex, and at the very least, we only had that back then??? Have the options expanded at all since then, or nah? - also, of the two, which do we like?
It has only ever been scything talons or crushing claws on Tervigons.
Personally I'd stick with the scything talons. Three attacks hitting on a 4+ is bad. But the -1 to hit on the crushing claws changing that to a 5+ is just dismal. Plus they make you pay more points for it.
Actually, back in 8th, the Tervigon could take a gun. I'd frequently give it the relic guns to make her actually be a threat on the battlefield.
Ah, you mean back in 6th/7th. I'd forgotten about the old Miasma Cannon relic back then. It could indeed be swapped from a pair of scything talons on a tervigon. Good catch.
Just add bits of carapace and green stuff to a hive crone, use the scything talons of a hierodule (magnetise them so you can put them back on the dule when needed) and make the hive crone head a bit bigger with green stuff. If your model is 10% smaller than the FW thing don't worry, no one will care. You will never be out of LOS anyway so it won't make a difference. Just be sure to have the right base for it
I’ll post a comparison picture when I get home (I have both a Hive Crone and Harridan) but as Niiai points out the Harridan is a lot bigger than the plastic flying monsters. Would still be a neat conversion, but the size difference would be a sticking point.
I have one - wing span is 13.25 inches, wider than than the narrow deployment zones. It's much longer the other way. On maps with the 12" deployment zones, you need to either pay 4CP to reserve it or have it sit around doing nothing turn 1 per the FAQ. Love him, but it sucks in about a third of the missions.
Verthane wrote: I have one - wing span is 13.25 inches, wider than than the narrow deployment zones. It's much longer the other way. On maps with the 12" deployment zones, you need to either pay 4CP to reserve it or have it sit around doing nothing turn 1 per the FAQ. Love him, but it sucks in about a third of the missions.
Thanks for the input, so kitbashing is no way to go, unless you get the dimensions exactly right. Because otherwise, that's modelling for advantage...
Now I really wanne kitbash a harridan. But it is probably expensive, and that bad boy is to big for public transport
That's a curious interaction bewteen Overrun and Aircraft rules, which makes me think Overrun is going to be either removed, Core locked or heavily edited.
I must confess I haven't looked at its rules too closely as there hasn't been very many opportunities to use it. That being said, I do hope they will do something similar for our other dedicated flying monsters to give them a different feel from their ground-pounding counterparts.
The FW stuff is just very underpointed by comparison...because that is what FW is great at. Turns out though the FW stuff is about right and pretty much everything else nids is overpointed.
As far as i know FW is no longer making the rules and points costs for their models, its all done by GW now.
Verthane wrote: I have one - wing span is 13.25 inches, wider than than the narrow deployment zones. It's much longer the other way. On maps with the 12" deployment zones, you need to either pay 4CP to reserve it or have it sit around doing nothing turn 1 per the FAQ. Love him, but it sucks in about a third of the missions.
This is actually an incorrect interpretation of step 11 of either the BRB/GT Mission Pack. The second sentence says "A player’s models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone" and in Basic Rules section of the Core Rules you will find a section under Measuring Distances titled "Within and Wholly Within" that states " If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance."
Since the Harridan has a base and doesnt hull measure, as long its base is wholly within the deployment zone it will never be subjected to the restrictions laid out in the second paragraph of step 11 in the Mission Pack.
Basically, if the model has a base, the actual size of the model doesnt matter when you are trying to determine if it is wholly within a deployment zone.
Verthane wrote: I have one - wing span is 13.25 inches, wider than than the narrow deployment zones. It's much longer the other way. On maps with the 12" deployment zones, you need to either pay 4CP to reserve it or have it sit around doing nothing turn 1 per the FAQ. Love him, but it sucks in about a third of the missions.
This is actually an incorrect interpretation of step 11 of either the BRB/GT Mission Pack. The second sentence says "A player’s models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone" and in Basic Rules section of the Core Rules you will find a section under Measuring Distances titled "Within and Wholly Within" that states " If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance."
Since the Harridan has a base and doesnt hull measure, as long its base is wholly within the deployment zone it will never be subjected to the restrictions laid out in the second paragraph of step 11 in the Mission Pack.
Basically, if the model has a base, the actual size of the model doesnt matter when you are trying to determine if it is wholly within a deployment zone.
I agree with you but sadly some TO don't. I went to a tournament last summer, in 2 out of 5 games my ares gun ship was not allowed to do anything in the first turn.
Half looking at getting some games again when I get a chance.
Now, I haven't actually played 9th - or even 8th! - but I have played a fair amount of kill team, so the stats, the idea of command points and stratagems and picking secondary objectives all makes sense.
Unfortunately I know I'm limited by my available units.
My 6th/7th edition tactics were "drown them in bodies" and I have tervigons and a big bucket of fleshborer gaunts, with some screamer-killers to make up the points.
I know it's not a flexible or very good list, but that's what I'm stuck with.
So: starting from the principle of three tervigons, a hundred odd fleshborer gaunts and some screamer-killers, first off, what's the best plan for hive fleet? My brain says kraken to advance as fast as possible and then park the swarm and momma bugs on the objectives, or Hydra because it seems to be all about numbers and the psychic power looks to be rather nice for someone trying to chew through a regenerating brood.
With that composition, I would suggest leaning into Jormungander. Your basic premise is an attrition list with durability from high wound count, so skew defensively with cover and spore cysts on the screamer killers. If you can afford to add another unit, I'd go with either some Venomthropes/Malanthropes (though the latter might be out of production now) or a Malceptor for its signature -1 strength defensive aura stratagem.
Tervigons and Termagants do play well with a Kronos gunline (screens to keep things away from the heavier artillery), but they themselves don't benefit as much from the adaptation.
I wouldn't go with Hydra. While the Tervigons keeping brood numbers up is good for the adaptation, I've generally found Hydra works best with an all infantry force that leans into large broods of the more "elite" multi-wound infantry.
I figured jormungander wouldn't be so great - that I'd be needing to advance a lot in turns 1 and 2 to swarm objectives, and going from a 6+ save to a 5+ didn't feel so great - or is that mostly about keeping the momma bugs alive?
Yes, I do. I guess that gives a nice balance between Kraken speed and a toughness increase like jormungandr.
It does mean losing opportunistic advance, which looks really good for yeeting 30 odd gaunts up the field. I guess metabolic overdrive is still available, but that'll cause half a dozen or so gaunts to explode if I do.
I don't think Jormungandr would be optimal. Like you noted it doesn't help if you advance (or get in melee), and lots of armies (see: Marines) have no trouble hitting you with enough AP to mitigate your save.
I'd suggest Leviathan for durability. You get your 6+ against anything AP0, and then an extra 6+++ against all wounds.
Alternatively, Kraken with gaunts means you will dominate the board. You won't be quite as durable, but you will be able to get on objectives quickly and hold them.
That combination addnid recommended is a nice compromise between the two, albeit at the cost of fleet-specific goodies.
catbarf wrote: I don't think Jormungandr would be optimal. Like you noted it doesn't help if you advance (or get in melee), and lots of armies (see: Marines) have no trouble hitting you with enough AP to mitigate your save.
I'd suggest Leviathan for durability. You get your 6+ against anything AP0, and then an extra 6++ against all wounds.
Alternatively, Kraken with gaunts means you will dominate the board. You won't be quite as durable, but you will be able to get on objectives quickly and hold them.
That combination addnid recommended is a nice compromise between the two, albeit at the cost of fleet-specific goodies.
If you want to tarpit 6++ is much better than a 6+++ that gets ignored against anything worthy of note
I think I'm see-sawing between addnids recommendation for a custom fleet, Leviathan and kraken.
I'll have to get a few games and experiment: Leviathan's relic and stratagem do nothing, and the custom fleet obviously doesn't have one, so most tempted by Kraken for a first try.
catbarf wrote: I don't think Jormungandr would be optimal. Like you noted it doesn't help if you advance (or get in melee), and lots of armies (see: Marines) have no trouble hitting you with enough AP to mitigate your save.
I'd suggest Leviathan for durability. You get your 6+ against anything AP0, and then an extra 6++ against all wounds.
Alternatively, Kraken with gaunts means you will dominate the board. You won't be quite as durable, but you will be able to get on objectives quickly and hold them.
That combination addnid recommended is a nice compromise between the two, albeit at the cost of fleet-specific goodies.
If you want to tarpit 6++ is much better than a 6+++ that gets ignored against anything worthy of note
Edited my post for accuracy, since Leviathan is a 6+++ rather than a 6++. What do you mean by 'gets ignored against anything worthy of note'? Obviously a 6+++ isn't much help against multi-damage weapons but if your opponent is pointing those at Gaunts, you're doing pretty well.
If you go Custom Fleet I believe there is a heal one wound power that Might keep the Tervigons alive a little longer. Then once you have a game or three in look at adding units like Lictors and Venothropes. Zoeys are one of our better units rights now (as always... )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Currently Nids don't generally like taking Relic, and take a adaptation instead. Then Double down for a second one.
locarno24 wrote: I figured jormungander wouldn't be so great - that I'd be needing to advance a lot in turns 1 and 2 to swarm objectives, and going from a 6+ save to a 5+ didn't feel so great - or is that mostly about keeping the momma bugs alive?
I was originally thinking about the big bugs (old standby for monster spam) but I suppose after the points raised by others it probably isn't the best pick for your list. I do like addnid's suggestion. As noted it is a fair compromise between speed and durability.
Also regarding Leviathan and War on All Fronts, my experience has been that any of the 'thropes are great enablers for it.
Hey are there any good ways to use Tyrannofexes against say, Space Marines or Necrons, I just got a second one for my birthday and was wondering if a Double T-fex could be useful for busting through a line of intercessors with those big acid spray, or for pairing up and cutting down tanks with their rupture cannons.
Also just put in an order for a Maleceptor because I like the model, are they any good? Similar defensive profile to a Hive Tyrant but with harder hitting weapons, if at worse WS and with fewer attacks.
Malceptor is quite fun with Blood of Baal. The Encephalic Diffusion stratagem is very helpful against a wide range of units. I had games in late 8th where the only reason anything of mine survived the first couple turns was because of the -1 strength bubble from the Malceptor anchoring the center.
Offensively it is kinda so-so, though it does have an easier time getting D6 damage smites due to the innate +1 it gets while casting. I have had one kill a Knight after a couple smites and some lucky talon damage rolls, but in most cases I treat it as a support beast rather than an assault specialist.
Tyranofexes are OK. Flamer is best option. Rupture cannon competes VS exoshoshrine, the first is better VS T8 only. Exoshrine is much more diverse allrounder.
All of these got massive competition for the forge world big bugs.
Kraken is so much better in almost every circumstance. Big bugs being able to fallback and charge is so important. And Termagants that are still 5pt fearless bodies but take the entire board turn 1 is game changing. It has hands down the best stratagem too.
Leviathan turning every 10 gants into 11/12 man (vs damage 1 only) isn't hugely relevant. 18W big bugs into 21W is more relevant, but only sometimes, and often doesn't make much difference. Kraken makes a big difference every single game.
Maleceptors in tandem with mawlocs can do some nasty damage to castled up units. Double move the maleceptor and use its AoE attack alongside the mawloc popping up. You’ll have two big units they’ll be forced to deal with before anything else, and the encephalic strat ensures they won’t go down easy.
pinecone77 wrote: Yeah, my pain meds got screwed up, and I am still recovering...
OK meds are right now...What I meant was these days nobody sweats the Relic, it is all about the Adaptations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: Maleceptors in tandem with mawlocs can do some nasty damage to castled up units. Double move the maleceptor and use its AoE attack alongside the mawloc popping up. You’ll have two big units they’ll be forced to deal with before anything else, and the encephalic strat ensures they won’t go down easy.
Yes I love Mawlock as a answer to castles. Though I don't think 9th really rewards castling up. Maybe the new Tau Codex will change that, but in 9th moving around, and taking things is major.
pinecone77 wrote: Yeah, my pain meds got screwed up, and I am still recovering...
OK meds are right now...What I meant was these days nobody sweats the Relic, it is all about the Adaptations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: Maleceptors in tandem with mawlocs can do some nasty damage to castled up units. Double move the maleceptor and use its AoE attack alongside the mawloc popping up. You’ll have two big units they’ll be forced to deal with before anything else, and the encephalic strat ensures they won’t go down easy.
Yes I love Mawlock as a answer to castles. Though I don't think 9th really rewards castling up. Maybe the new Tau Codex will change that, but in 9th moving around, and taking things is major.
People often leave minimal troops units on objectives close to their deployment zone. I think this is where the Mawloc shines in taking away those least protected objectives..
Strat_N8 wrote: Malceptor is quite fun with Blood of Baal. The Encephalic Diffusion stratagem is very helpful against a wide range of units. I had games in late 8th where the only reason anything of mine survived the first couple turns was because of the -1 strength bubble from the Malceptor anchoring the center.
Offensively it is kinda so-so, though it does have an easier time getting D6 damage smites due to the innate +1 it gets while casting. I have had one kill a Knight after a couple smites and some lucky talon damage rolls, but in most cases I treat it as a support beast rather than an assault specialist.
In Kraken, I give him the Psychic Scream power, and send him forward at the front of the rush. He can then scream/smite on +1 to cast, gets shadow in the warp and deny right out in the middle of the table, and then can charge something either to deny it from shooting or to keep something that blends infantry off my genestealers. His ability to fall back, reposition to get scream/smite on what I want it on, and then charge again to be a nuisance is incredibly useful. He's also decently durable for his points. In short, if you look at him from a min/max damage output perspective he's awful. However, if you use him as a swiss army knife for solving problems, or sometimes just forcing the enemy to invest in killing him so he doesn't mortal down something important, he's a gem.
Strat_N8 wrote: Malceptor is quite fun with Blood of Baal. The Encephalic Diffusion stratagem is very helpful against a wide range of units. I had games in late 8th where the only reason anything of mine survived the first couple turns was because of the -1 strength bubble from the Malceptor anchoring the center.
Offensively it is kinda so-so, though it does have an easier time getting D6 damage smites due to the innate +1 it gets while casting. I have had one kill a Knight after a couple smites and some lucky talon damage rolls, but in most cases I treat it as a support beast rather than an assault specialist.
In Kraken, I give him the Psychic Scream power, and send him forward at the front of the rush. He can then scream/smite on +1 to cast, gets shadow in the warp and deny right out in the middle of the table, and then can charge something either to deny it from shooting or to keep something that blends infantry off my genestealers. His ability to fall back, reposition to get scream/smite on what I want it on, and then charge again to be a nuisance is incredibly useful. He's also decently durable for his points. In short, if you look at him from a min/max damage output perspective he's awful. However, if you use him as a swiss army knife for solving problems, or sometimes just forcing the enemy to invest in killing him so he doesn't mortal down something important, he's a gem.
Can you still Fall Back and cast? I thought 9th nixed that.
"Sir! Tyranid players have found some use in one of the more obscure units."
"How much use?"
"It's actually quite effective, especially when you consider that we've gone out of our way to make most Tyranids units garbage."
"Well, we can't have that! Nerf it!"
"Yes sir! That'll teach Tyranid players what having 'hope' gets them!"
So there is a new FAQ out with this hidden 'gem' tucked in there:
6. Even if a Reinforcement unit is subject to such a rule, that rule has no effect on that unit in the turn they are set up on the battlefield. This means Reinforcement units always units count as having moved (i.e. they never count as having Remained
Stationary). Remember that this also includes Repositioned and Replacement units (pg 99).
Apparently having exocrines count as stationary after coming in from reserves was too powerful...
Us3Less wrote: So there is a new FAQ out with this hidden 'gem' tucked in there:
6. Even if a Reinforcement unit is subject to such a rule, that rule has no effect on that unit in the turn they are set up on the battlefield. This means Reinforcement units always units count as having moved (i.e. they never count as having Remained
Stationary). Remember that this also includes Repositioned and Replacement units (pg 99).
Apparently having exocrines count as stationary after coming in from reserves was too powerful...
The various changes also means they can use the strat to count as stationary after falling back, so there's that. I will miss doing it after coming in from strategic reserves though. Makes taking 2 exos a little less appealing.
The last FAQ said they could use that strat even if they've advanced. The new one says the exact opposite, even when the rulebook FAQ clarifies that "always stationary" can affect units that have Advanced or Fallen Back. So the Exocrine specifically gets its own slightly different version of a rule that impacts everyone else the same way.
GW are a bunch of fething monkeys. And feth "bespoke" rules. They would know a good set of rules if it came up and bit 'em in the face...
Thinking about trying a Hydra horde list full of a metric ton of hormagaunts and judicious use of the Caustic Blood and Cut Them Down stratagems and the Death Shriek power. Mortals when they die, more mortals to everything else, and mortals if the enemy tries to fall back. Could fill the rest of the list with pyrovores and spore mines, if my lot in life is to get blown off the board I should theme a list around it.
Update: Tried out the Hydra suicide gimmick list, unfortunately it was against an anti-horde Knights list. Managed about 25 mortals turn 1 from gaunts getting stepped on and stepped over, but after that I ran out of bodies and couldn’t keep up the pace.
It was a purely gimmick list, I just got the worst possible army to try it out against. If I was gonna try a competitive version of it then Biovores and sporocysts would probably feature in there to choke the field with more exploding bodies, yeah.
Carnifexes are cool, not good. Stand outs are Old one Eye (who might be good, not just cool) and the 24 shots bs3 dakkafex with -1 to hit it.
Hierodules are good. They where the hype until people build the damacaroenes instead. In adition to the 'macarones there is also a hard competition from the harradrian.
anybody know of a good tldr tyranid type tactics. I am trying to follow this and found a tactical turtle video breakdown on youtube but am having a hard time figuring out how to build an army
G00fySmiley wrote: anybody know of a good tldr tyranid type tactics. I am trying to follow this and found a tactical turtle video breakdown on youtube but am having a hard time figuring out how to build an army
Tl dr, broad tactics that will probably serve you well every edition of Tyranids
Take enough firepower to remove key threats. Don’t try and take enough firepower to table your opponents it will never work for Nids we aren’t one of those armies. Focus on their strong scoring, and the more you invest into things that punch the more Termagants you should take. Prioritise killing or tying up the things that are gonna do the most damage to your scoring. Play grand strategy, use Termagants as basically speed bumps or waves. Don’t think of the buzzwords there for a minute but think about how a wave won’t actually do much to stop your progress, but will slow you down if you have to go over it.
When looking at monsters, consider for a second the survivability of one monster as opposed to 5 of monsters. One just gives an easy and obvious target for AT weapons, 5 means you might actually have something standing by turn 3. This is a reason why a lot of players go for very heavy Monster play (Nidzilla) or very little and play mostly a horde of infantry like Genestealers or gaunts. However this is a tactical game and terrain is a thing, you can still get away with that solo Swarmlord for his move speed buff or that lone exocrine for punching out rapidfire plasma, just make sure you put it somewhere smart for Line of Sight purposes. Basically In a heavy monster build your artillery gets to be more brazen and effective and deploy on top of some building since there is probably a more important target or two on the board already and you can’t hide all your monsters anyway. In a more balanced/infantry centric build you probably want to pick the roles offered by monster support carefully and play then carefully.
Nids are a closed range, board control/brawler army. You have all the tools to take objectives as well as deny them from your opponent, and there’s usually one or two units every edition that have really short range, but good punch and survivability. And even some of the crappier units like Fexes (both sorts) can do surprising damage if given the opportunity. However even your artillery like hive guard is fairly short ranged and often needs an aggressive position to do their best work. As such Speed is key, and think extremely hard about picking any other hive fleet than kraken. +1 to saves is cool - getting into range a turn early and copping one less turn of firepower is much better. Having five more Termagants left in your unit because of FNP is awesome - but actually being on the objective is even better. Tyranids besdt strats are movement based and most your gameplay should be focused on holding the board. If you want some examples of this I can provide.
I think that’s the core principals to Tyranids. I’ve had extreme success with them over the years by following these broad strokes, and I’ve barely lost a game. I only get to play locally plus one city over this edition so not the broadest range, but plenty of variety and I’ve played through some of the biggest balance discrepancies ever, and come out ahead just by building effectively and playing smart. And off the backs of the humble Termagant too lol, grow to love them, they are the bread and butter of Nids, best unit in the dex every edition. Seriously 5 pts for what they offer now is just awesome. I run almost 100 and I’m playing Nidzilla lol they are just hardcore.
I just bought my first Tyranids, and I wanted to get some opinions on how to build my Tyranid Warriors.
The list is a broodlord and a neurothrope for HQs, two squads of genestealers and one squad of warriors for troops, a squad of zoanthropes, and a trygon prime.
I am not exactly trying to be super competitive, but if I was basically planning to send everything
except the warriors forward for smites and charges how would you build those warriors?
What weapons are worth taking on them if they are just going to be there to hold a backfield objective?
Tyran wrote: IMHO with warriors, either you go very cheap with pure scything talons, or you go very expensive with boneswords, deathspitters and venom cannons.
Full disclosure, never used the guys and still building my swarm.
If you were going to use them for backfield campers, would something in the middle work? Like one with a venom cannon and the other two bare bones, just as ablative wounds? Kinda like camping a 5 man tac squad with a ML to camp. With board sizes being what they are, the points for the 24” deathspitters don’t seem that out of place, but then we are just a few more points to your fully tricked out squad.
In my small games, I’ve just been using rippers to hold objectives. Low use, but low points. A squad of warriors is more of an investment, but might be able to hold off a harassment unit that swings by.
Hello guys, im into making an horde type, with big minis army. Im thinking into new orks or nids. I already got the beastnagga box, but in my mind i think that nids got more "tools" for play competitive. Also the 9th ed codex might be good.
In your competitive experience, wich of both armys had more succees?
In my tournament games i dont see many of the 2. Just lots of drukh, marines and mech
Hello there!
I have always been tempted to start a Nids project just for fun. Genestealer being my favorite ever since. Soooooo I ended up ordering :
1 Swarmlord
1 Broodlord
1 Lictor
60 Genestealer
Simply because I like them.
What would you recommend to buy next to get the above working atleast to a degree where I won't get smashed in the face every game
I always beta this drum. But lash whip and bonesword is much better then double bonesword on warriors. What little you loose in damage output is far outweighted by what you get from strategy.
The two most common uses is not piling in propperly. Now your opponent kills the first warriors and they need to pile into more of your dead warriors. Next turn you shoot and charge.
The other use is when the warriors get completly overwhelmed. And now you get to fight anyway.
40kFANATIC wrote: Hello there!
I have always been tempted to start a Nids project just for fun. Genestealer being my favorite ever since. Soooooo I ended up ordering :
1 Swarmlord
1 Broodlord
1 Lictor
60 Genestealer
Simply because I like them.
What would you recommend to buy next to get the above working atleast to a degree where I won't get smashed in the face every game
Thx in advance
Well, you gone "all in" for the stealers...I'd say you need support. So some Zoeys to give MW, Hiveguard maybe some Gunbugs to draw fire awy from the stealers? I am Hopeful that Stealers will get a second wound come the codex so you might just have to look forward to better days in the future...Lol some screens of Termagants wight help some but that is even moar swarmy dudes....
So I have recently got into my head a rather silly idea, but it's taken hold and I want to pursue it. See, my LGS and group are heavily into proxies, conversions, and total customization. We have things like entire proxied armies of Squats, custom factions kitbashed out of imperial soup, you get the idea.
I was thinking of making a nid list that followed the same basic premise, but I wanted to get some community feedback on the idea. The alternate lore that I thought would be fun to pursue would be an alien civilization that looked like the nids (monsters, essentially,) but had culture, individuality, art and science and all that jazz (heck, maybe even jazz!)
Being as how my experience with the nids is limited to battlescribe and a few games back in 8th against them, what would you folks recommend for a list of "thinking monsters"?
I had no idea that a new 'nids codex was in the pipeline! (Well, obviously, I knew there would be one eventually... but certainly not as soon as September-December!)
Regarding the shooting vs. Melee thing, I had a similar thought. I wanted my monsters to have access to more traditional "technology" aside from just biological superiority, and for the most part that means things like guns.
I'm a little confused, however, about the nids melee monsters being "bad" these days. Granted, I haven't played against them in any fashion for years, but the last I remember was them being both frightfully fast and able to put the hurt on people at close range quite effectively.
Has the nids meta changed that much? I'll admit that a mostly shooty army of nids seems... just kinda weird really... I'm not saying I'm against it, just seems... weird.
9th edition has a ton of multidamage weapons that will simply melt tyranid bugs because nids don't have the right strategems or abilities to mitigate the huge numbers of wounds that get dealt these days.
40k is all about making good points trades and the grim fact is a lot of basic infantry will delete big bugs in one round of shooting. To make matters worse is that our melee is even worse.
The forgeworld bugs are good now, but I don't consider them really part of the tyranid faction. Just a pay to win cash grab. But they do have good rules.
We have no confirmation for nid codexes. But nids keep showing up on many of the pictures on other products. Not unlike how the other factions that have gotten codexes have.
Warzone Octarius gimmicks, a version of HQ upgrades for Synapse creatures that are unique to each one - I'm going to assume only the HQ choice ones get the option, but it looks like nearby Synapse creatures can bloom the aura out, so even if Warriors don't have their own, they can spread out a Hive Tyrant's effect or somesuch.
Broodlord one looks pretty good, unfortunately sort of invalidates Venomthropes a bit unless you anticipate a lot of +1 to hit from your opponent. Definitely curious to see what the other options are, but I wonder if this is an indication of the Nid dex being further off than the end of the year - these feel like basic codex content every 9e book has had so far, sticking it in an expansion book feels odd unless the 9e Nid dex is 8+ months out.
Madjob wrote: Broodlord one looks pretty good, unfortunately sort of invalidates Venomthropes a bit unless you anticipate a lot of +1 to hit from your opponent. Definitely curious to see what the other options are, but I wonder if this is an indication of the Nid dex being further off than the end of the year - these feel like basic codex content every 9e book has had so far, sticking it in an expansion book feels odd unless the 9e Nid dex is 8+ months out.
It sounds like these only affect 1 unit at a time, so I don't think it will really impact the Venomthrope much just as a matter of coverage. I do like the concept though, as it lets synapse serve as a benefit rather than something required for basic functionality.
I do wonder a bit regarding the Psychic Creep one. We have soooo many ways to apply leadership penalties I wonder if it might be worth trying to build a list around it:..
Off the top of my head:
Screamer Killer (+1 to roll)
Rippers and Haruspex via Gristly Feast Stratagem (+1 to roll)
The Horror (-1 ld)
Infrasonic Roar (-1 ld)
Abhorrent Pheromones (-2 ld)
Horror from Beyond (-1 ld if near a monster)
Psychic Creep (-1 ld and -1 to attrition tests)
Orks and Druhkari both are light on leadership buffs. Marines don't care much but even a basic Ripper Swarm with the Abhorrent Pheromones is making them ld6 with a +1 to their test...
Madjob wrote: Broodlord one looks pretty good, unfortunately sort of invalidates Venomthropes a bit unless you anticipate a lot of +1 to hit from your opponent. Definitely curious to see what the other options are, but I wonder if this is an indication of the Nid dex being further off than the end of the year - these feel like basic codex content every 9e book has had so far, sticking it in an expansion book feels odd unless the 9e Nid dex is 8+ months out.
It sounds like these only affect 1 unit at a time, so I don't think it will really impact the Venomthrope much just as a matter of coverage. I do like the concept though, as it lets synapse serve as a benefit rather than something required for basic functionality.
I do wonder a bit regarding the Psychic Creep one. We have soooo many ways to apply leadership penalties I wonder if it might be worth trying to build a list around it:..
Off the top of my head:
Screamer Killer (+1 to roll)
Rippers and Haruspex via Gristly Feast Stratagem (+1 to roll)
The Horror (-1 ld)
Infrasonic Roar (-1 ld)
Abhorrent Pheromones (-2 ld)
Horror from Beyond (-1 ld if near a monster)
Psychic Creep (-1 ld and -1 to attrition tests)
Orks and Druhkari both are light on leadership buffs. Marines don't care much but even a basic Ripper Swarm with the Abhorrent Pheromones is making them ld6 with a +1 to their test...
Wow, I never thought about how many of these mostly trash rules we have picked up over the edition. I guess, like you said, when you pile 'em together, you could get something fun here. I used to love my Eldar Freakshow lists back in 7e. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you can do all of this within the Jormungandr fleet. Anyway, a fun novelty. Hopefully these new rules give us more than that, but I'm with you. I think a lot of people are misreading how the Synaptic Link effect works.
Warzone Octarius gimmicks, a version of HQ upgrades for Synapse creatures that are unique to each one - I'm going to assume only the HQ choice ones get the option, but it looks like nearby Synapse creatures can bloom the aura out, so even if Warriors don't have their own, they can spread out a Hive Tyrant's effect or somesuch.
Broodlord one looks pretty good, unfortunately sort of invalidates Venomthropes a bit unless you anticipate a lot of +1 to hit from your opponent. Definitely curious to see what the other options are, but I wonder if this is an indication of the Nid dex being further off than the end of the year - these feel like basic codex content every 9e book has had so far, sticking it in an expansion book feels odd unless the 9e Nid dex is 8+ months out.
Sure, Venomthropes get more coverage, but a reactive cover ability for only +15pts is really hard to argue with.
I think that’s the core principals to Tyranids. I’ve had extreme success with them over the years by following these broad strokes, and I’ve barely lost a game. I only get to play locally plus one city over this edition so not the broadest range, but plenty of variety and I’ve played through some of the biggest balance discrepancies ever, and come out ahead just by building effectively and playing smart. And off the backs of the humble Termagant too lol, grow to love them, they are the bread and butter of Nids, best unit in the dex every edition. Seriously 5 pts for what they offer now is just awesome. I run almost 100 and I’m playing Nidzilla lol they are just hardcore.
^I recently started priming my gants and this is inspiring.
Question(s): How are you running them? All Fleshborers? Some Devilgants? Mixed squads? How do you use them on the table? I'm sitting on 60 Fleshborers and 60 Devilgants and maybe a few that aren't yet armed (literally). I'm interested in learning the way of the gant.
Warzone Octarius gimmicks, a version of HQ upgrades for Synapse creatures that are unique to each one - I'm going to assume only the HQ choice ones get the option, but it looks like nearby Synapse creatures can bloom the aura out, so even if Warriors don't have their own, they can spread out a Hive Tyrant's effect or somesuch.
Broodlord one looks pretty good, unfortunately sort of invalidates Venomthropes a bit unless you anticipate a lot of +1 to hit from your opponent. Definitely curious to see what the other options are, but I wonder if this is an indication of the Nid dex being further off than the end of the year - these feel like basic codex content every 9e book has had so far, sticking it in an expansion book feels odd unless the 9e Nid dex is 8+ months out.
Sure, Venomthropes get more coverage, but a reactive cover ability for only +15pts is really hard to argue with.
Venomthropes have an aura, this targets one unit. I'd call it proactive rather than reactive. Your opponent knows who has the buff so they can target another unit. Venomthropes/Malanthropes definitely still have a place, given that.
Is it just me or is it basically impossible to use spore mines effectively?
They're surprisingly expensive for a popping gasbag and when you use their float down deployment, they'll have to sit there for a turn to get shot at by the enemy (read: wiped because they have no ability to take fire) or luck out with a 12" charge.
The handicaps would be reasonable tradeoffs if they were cheaper than guardsmen. As a comparison, guardsmen get ranged weapons, armour, more movement, ability to hold objectives but cost less than a suicide bomb bag.
Are we paying that much for the chance to cause mortal wounds which we are pretty much never in a position to achieve?
Otto Weston wrote: Is it just me or is it basically impossible to use spore mines effectively?
They're surprisingly expensive for a popping gasbag and when you use their float down deployment, they'll have to sit there for a turn to get shot at by the enemy (read: wiped because they have no ability to take fire) or luck out with a 12" charge.
The handicaps would be reasonable tradeoffs if they were cheaper than guardsmen. As a comparison, guardsmen get ranged weapons, armour, more movement, ability to hold objectives but cost less than a suicide bomb bag.
Are we paying that much for the chance to cause mortal wounds which we are pretty much never in a position to achieve?
You should not pay points for units of spore mines. The best way to use them is to fire them from other units like biovores, which generate them for free when they miss. The generated ones are also each individual units, which forces the opponent to split their fire to get rid of them.
Spore mines do fairly ignorable amounts of damage. However you shouldn't use them for damage. They are best kept as models on the table and used as movement blockers. Non-flying enemy units can't walk through them, and they can't get rid of them until their shooting phase. Meaning you can generate a wall of mines and stop the enemy from walking onto an objective.
It can be hard to block small based infantry, but stopping something like a tank from moving forwards is quite doable with only a couple of mines. Particularly if it's next to a ruin or table edge you can pin it against.
Remember to nudge a squad of biovores in the movement phase to give them -1 to hit, which improves their chances of generating spore mine models.
Note this isn't a reliable strategy to base an army on, as there's a lot of stuff in the game which can just fly over the mines and ignore them, and biovores are quite expensive. But it's far better than taking lists with big units of mines in them.
I hadn’t thought about moving the biovores to make more mines. Nice tip.
I’ve been playing crusade (PL) games with my nids the few times I’ve had them out. One perk of buying units of mines is that they are 1 PL units, so good for topping off a list. You can also just start them on the table just to eat space and keep people from DSing near them.
I’ve also enjoyed a unit of 3 biovores. Help spam MWs, and the disruption of spawning mines is helpful and a lot of fun.
And while the mines might die to a stiff breeze, our little fickle 6-sided friends sometimes break in their favor. How much fire do you want to allocate to take them down? One marine with his bolter should be able to do it. But if you have multiple units of mines, and that gaunt squad that needs killing, how you going to split the squad’s firepower. And guessing wrong or being unlucky means eating MWs and maybe not being able to charge where you want.
Spores are currently only useful as a counterpick against hyper elite armies. Against anyone else they are useless.
The FW mucoloid spores were pretty snazzy back in 8th when they had a scout deploy, but they got nerfed into oblivion and are useless now.
The bigger spores were only used to fill out FA slots in a Brigade back in 8th as well as they were the cheapest thing in slot, but now have no purpose. They needed a rule that let them hit everything in 2d6 range with d3 mortals when they died to be any good.
Regular spores are basically 30pts for a smite that cant be denied and can move block, but can also be spit on with lazgun fire and removed.
Spores seriously need to be allowed to forward deploy (scout deploy) to make them useful. If i had a minefield, i know i wouldnt be trying to bury the mines during a fire-fight. I would bury them before the fight in a place where I knew my enemy would likely be.
Eihnlazer wrote: Spores are currently only useful as a counterpick against hyper elite armies. Against anyone else they are useless.
The FW mucoloid spores were pretty snazzy back in 8th when they had a scout deploy, but they got nerfed into oblivion and are useless now.
The bigger spores were only used to fill out FA slots in a Brigade back in 8th as well as they were the cheapest thing in slot, but now have no purpose. They needed a rule that let them hit everything in 2d6 range with d3 mortals when they died to be any good.
Regular spores are basically 30pts for a smite that cant be denied and can move block, but can also be spit on with lazgun fire and removed.
Spores seriously need to be allowed to forward deploy (scout deploy) to make them useful. If i had a minefield, i know i wouldnt be trying to bury the mines during a fire-fight. I would bury them before the fight in a place where I knew my enemy would likely be.
Remember back in 7th when Mucolid spores were troops for some bizarre reason? Good times. And by good times, I mean bad times for the Nids.
So I have recently got into my head a rather silly idea, but it's taken hold and I want to pursue it. See, my LGS and group are heavily into proxies, conversions, and total customization. We have things like entire proxied armies of Squats, custom factions kitbashed out of imperial soup, you get the idea.
I was thinking of making a nid list that followed the same basic premise, but I wanted to get some community feedback on the idea. The alternate lore that I thought would be fun to pursue would be an alien civilization that looked like the nids (monsters, essentially,) but had culture, individuality, art and science and all that jazz (heck, maybe even jazz!)
Being as how my experience with the nids is limited to battlescribe and a few games back in 8th against them, what would you folks recommend for a list of "thinking monsters"?
So I have recently got into my head a rather silly idea, but it's taken hold and I want to pursue it. See, my LGS and group are heavily into proxies, conversions, and total customization. We have things like entire proxied armies of Squats, custom factions kitbashed out of imperial soup, you get the idea.
I was thinking of making a nid list that followed the same basic premise, but I wanted to get some community feedback on the idea. The alternate lore that I thought would be fun to pursue would be an alien civilization that looked like the nids (monsters, essentially,) but had culture, individuality, art and science and all that jazz (heck, maybe even jazz!)
Being as how my experience with the nids is limited to battlescribe and a few games back in 8th against them, what would you folks recommend for a list of "thinking monsters"?
Thanks in advance!
Zoats?
Potentially using the Tyranid Warrior rules. Warriors are the most flexible unit for Nids, and one of the most flexible units in the game in terms of armament potential. Long range, short range, close combat, with multiple options for each.
So I have recently got into my head a rather silly idea, but it's taken hold and I want to pursue it. See, my LGS and group are heavily into proxies, conversions, and total customization. We have things like entire proxied armies of Squats, custom factions kitbashed out of imperial soup, you get the idea.
I was thinking of making a nid list that followed the same basic premise, but I wanted to get some community feedback on the idea. The alternate lore that I thought would be fun to pursue would be an alien civilization that looked like the nids (monsters, essentially,) but had culture, individuality, art and science and all that jazz (heck, maybe even jazz!)
Being as how my experience with the nids is limited to battlescribe and a few games back in 8th against them, what would you folks recommend for a list of "thinking monsters"?
Thanks in advance!
Zoats?
Potentially using the Tyranid Warrior rules. Warriors are the most flexible unit for Nids, and one of the most flexible units in the game in terms of armament potential. Long range, short range, close combat, with multiple options for each.
Yeah, an army based on say Leviathan Warriors could be a fearsome force. There seem to be some new rules about getting a benefit from Synapse, and all Warriors have it.
I think that’s the core principals to Tyranids. I’ve had extreme success with them over the years by following these broad strokes, and I’ve barely lost a game. I only get to play locally plus one city over this edition so not the broadest range, but plenty of variety and I’ve played through some of the biggest balance discrepancies ever, and come out ahead just by building effectively and playing smart. And off the backs of the humble Termagant too lol, grow to love them, they are the bread and butter of Nids, best unit in the dex every edition. Seriously 5 pts for what they offer now is just awesome. I run almost 100 and I’m playing Nidzilla lol they are just hardcore.
^I recently started priming my gants and this is inspiring.
Question(s): How are you running them? All Fleshborers? Some Devilgants? Mixed squads? How do you use them on the table? I'm sitting on 60 Fleshborers and 60 Devilgants and maybe a few that aren't yet armed (literally). I'm interested in learning the way of the gant.
Literally all fleshborers. Their strength isn't ever shooting for me, it's just putting waves of bodies in front of more important units - even if those units are just more gants in important areas. If I want to spend more on them I go for Hormagants, because speed lets them do more things in that role more than bullets do. Not saying Devourers are bad or whatever, but it depends on your list. For me it's regular gants everytime.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is it even worth running T-Gant units above 10 models now? Or any unit above 10?
You still get more bang for your buck with strats and buffs. And for things like sticking a unit in a Trygon tunnel. Or both at the same time. It’s not like we are getting free sergeants with MSU. So it’s the basic exchange of vulnerability of large units, but they can be leveraged with buffs, vs. the tactical flexibility of smalls.
I was considering starting a tyranid army because they remind me of the zerg and the models I had my eyes on reminded me most aesthetically of them, from raveners to hormagaunts and possibly genestealers... are there recommendations on what you would take in 9th edition for troops? I do care more about modeling right now than actual gameplay, and I figure that they would make a good match up for my friend's MEQ heavy chaos space marine army. I am wondering whether you find the sculpts and modeling of the different troops different enough that you would recommend for painters and modelers genestealers over gaunts and gants, for example. I am also interested in exploring whether or not nid infantry considering the special rules and ninth edition rules favor msu nids or hordes of blobs.
macluvin wrote: I was considering starting a tyranid army because they remind me of the zerg and the models I had my eyes on reminded me most aesthetically of them, from raveners to hormagaunts and possibly genestealers... are there recommendations on what you would take in 9th edition for troops? I do care more about modeling right now than actual gameplay, and I figure that they would make a good match up for my friend's MEQ heavy chaos space marine army. I am wondering whether you find the sculpts and modeling of the different troops different enough that you would recommend for painters and modelers genestealers over gaunts and gants, for example. I am also interested in exploring whether or not nid infantry considering the special rules and ninth edition rules favor msu nids or hordes of blobs.
IF you decide to run the Red Terror for funsies, since you want something more zerg like, look at Hydracasts Crimson Terror
It seems to me the new relic boneswords for leviathan might just be bad. I've been going through units, aside from non-khorne daemons and drukhari, there are VERY few units whose invulnerable save isn't two worse than their armor save. So as a relic for hive tyrants, it might be one of the worst they have access to. For warrior primes it *could* be decent. But then we run into the wee problem of having your prime in CC with daemonettes/wyches. Can't GW give nids a break once? One nice thing they don't immediately nerf into oblivion a month later?
StarHunter25 wrote: It seems to me the new relic boneswords for leviathan might just be bad. I've been going through units, aside from non-khorne daemons and drukhari, there are VERY few units whose invulnerable save isn't two worse than their armor save. So as a relic for hive tyrants, it might be one of the worst they have access to. For warrior primes it *could* be decent. But then we run into the wee problem of having your prime in CC with daemonettes/wyches. Can't GW give nids a break once? One nice thing they don't immediately nerf into oblivion a month later?
It's pretty much a requirement to combine this relic with the Murderous Size adaptation, to bump it to AP-3. You can then kill an enemy unit and improve it further with the Aggressive Adaptation stratagem to make it AP-4.
It's possible to get it to AP-5 by bringing a seperate Gorgon detachment and putting the wielder in range of a psyker with the Poisonous Influence power (improves AP of all friendly models in range of the caster, not just Gorgon ones). But that seems like a bit too much investment.
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Leviathan
+ Stratagems +
Bounty of the Hive Fleet: 1 Extra Bio-artefact
Progeny of the Hive
+ HQ +
Tyrant with Relic brain - Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Wings
. Knows an additional power, can do psychic actions and still cast another power, if casts on a 9+ cannot be denied.
Tank mommy - Tervigon: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Smite
. Relic Carapace (-1 to wound), synapse upgrade-in command phase nominate a unit in synapse to reroll wound rolls of 1 or 2.
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Full Reroll Prime - Tyranid Prime: Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs, Warlord
. in command phase nominate one unit within 6" and they get full hit rerolls.
Mally with synaptic upgrade - Maleceptor: Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite
. In command phase, nominate one unit and if they roll a 6 to wound they get +1AP. They can also reroll damage.
Mommy hangs back with the hive guard. gaunts all advance out but string back a bit just so that they can potentially be healed. Malaceptor moves up with the warriors and prime to give them -1 to wound. Hive tyrant does flying hive tyrant things.
Start of turn one is when you can hit real hard with the hive guard cause they get all the buffs. Rerolls to hit from prime, Extra AP on 6's, reroll damage, reroll wound rolls of 1 and 2. Shoot twice and exploding 6's from strats. 24 shots is getting 24-25 hits on average, at strength 8 against a Redemptor dread your getting 17-18 wounds at AP2 and 4 more at AP3. With reroll damage your dealing an average of 16-28 wounds depening on how hot his save rolls are. So you can actually kill 2 redemptors on turn one potentially. Its not a guarentee, but pretty nice. Can smoke a knight as well if you shoot both volleys into one.
Turn 2 you wont be able to full buff the hive guard unless you hang back, but it might be worth it depending on the opponent. If not, give the warriors full rerolls and extra AP on 6's and place them in position to wipe the enemies advance. Hive guard keep reroll wounds buff.
Depending on the matchup and how your opponent is going you can give the hive tyrant kraken for a turn so he can fall back and charge. Or give him kronos so you can use the anti-psycher strat. You could also give the warriors jormy for cover if they dont have it.
Lots of options. CP wont last more than 2 turns unfortunately so get it done quick.
Don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth but I just can't get behind this book in the context of carrying the Tyranids for what is looking to be more than another year of 9th without a codex. Most of the stuff that opens up the army a bit more are Leviathan specific, and the most potent of it dilutes Leviathan fleet identity while robbing other fleets of their own. Synaptic Links feel like command phase busywork (one of my least favorite things about 9e admech) while also artificially boosting the viability of particular synapse creatures on the merit of how much they can do for the few units left in the book that keep pace with current meta.
I know that it would be an unreasonable expectation for this book to manage to address the main issues with most of the datasheets in the 8e Tyranid codex (underpowered statlines, for the most part), and I know that GW cutting these campaign books entirely wouldn't have necessarily led to the 9e book arriving sooner, but I still can't help being underwhelmed. This doesn't make the proposition of unshelving my nids any more appealing.
Hive Fleet identities are notoriously artificial as they are all part of a greater whole. Leviathan being able to take the stuff of other Hive Fleets is completely in line with the lore.
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Leviathan
+ Stratagems +
Bounty of the Hive Fleet: 1 Extra Bio-artefact
Progeny of the Hive
+ HQ +
Tyrant with Relic brain - Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Wings
. Knows an additional power, can do psychic actions and still cast another power, if casts on a 9+ cannot be denied.
Tank mommy - Tervigon: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Smite
. Relic Carapace (-1 to wound), synapse upgrade-in command phase nominate a unit in synapse to reroll wound rolls of 1 or 2.
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Full Reroll Prime - Tyranid Prime: Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs, Warlord
. in command phase nominate one unit within 6" and they get full hit rerolls.
Mally with synaptic upgrade - Maleceptor: Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite
. In command phase, nominate one unit and if they roll a 6 to wound they get +1AP. They can also reroll damage.
Mommy hangs back with the hive guard. gaunts all advance out but string back a bit just so that they can potentially be healed. Malaceptor moves up with the warriors and prime to give them -1 to wound. Hive tyrant does flying hive tyrant things.
Start of turn one is when you can hit real hard with the hive guard cause they get all the buffs. Rerolls to hit from prime, Extra AP on 6's, reroll damage, reroll wound rolls of 1 and 2. Shoot twice and exploding 6's from strats. 24 shots is getting 24-25 hits on average, at strength 8 against a Redemptor dread your getting 17-18 wounds at AP2 and 4 more at AP3. With reroll damage your dealing an average of 16-28 wounds depening on how hot his save rolls are. So you can actually kill 2 redemptors on turn one potentially. Its not a guarentee, but pretty nice. Can smoke a knight as well if you shoot both volleys into one.
Turn 2 you wont be able to full buff the hive guard unless you hang back, but it might be worth it depending on the opponent. If not, give the warriors full rerolls and extra AP on 6's and place them in position to wipe the enemies advance. Hive guard keep reroll wounds buff.
Depending on the matchup and how your opponent is going you can give the hive tyrant kraken for a turn so he can fall back and charge. Or give him kronos so you can use the anti-psycher strat. You could also give the warriors jormy for cover if they dont have it.
Lots of options. CP wont last more than 2 turns unfortunately so get it done quick. [spoiler]
Okay, very cool list and I like where you're going with a lot of it, but what's up with the 9 pyrovores lol?
you pay one CP to outflank all 9 of them as they are 1PL apiece. Very cheap infantry unit which is a threat to other infantry.
Since you have a strat that lets you come on from reserve in turn 2 just like its turn 3, you can hold it over your opponent and force him to hold some stuff back to screen you.
Eihnlazer wrote: you pay one CP to outflank all 9 of them as they are 1PL apiece. Very cheap infantry unit which is a threat to other infantry.
Since you have a strat that lets you come on from reserve in turn 2 just like its turn 3, you can hold it over your opponent and force him to hold some stuff back to screen you.
...TIL how Strategic Reserves actually works LOL (never realized you sum the PL first, not count the units first). Interesting, I still think it's expensive to give up 3 elite slots on Pyrovores but that makes a lot more sense. Thank you!
Madjob wrote: Don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth but I just can't get behind this book in the context of carrying the Tyranids for what is looking to be more than another year of 9th without a codex. Most of the stuff that opens up the army a bit more are Leviathan specific, and the most potent of it dilutes Leviathan fleet identity while robbing other fleets of their own. Synaptic Links feel like command phase busywork (one of my least favorite things about 9e admech) while also artificially boosting the viability of particular synapse creatures on the merit of how much they can do for the few units left in the book that keep pace with current meta.
I know that it would be an unreasonable expectation for this book to manage to address the main issues with most of the datasheets in the 8e Tyranid codex (underpowered statlines, for the most part), and I know that GW cutting these campaign books entirely wouldn't have necessarily led to the 9e book arriving sooner, but I still can't help being underwhelmed. This doesn't make the proposition of unshelving my nids any more appealing.
Fully agree with this take. I think the Leviathan content is actually pretty good but I'm not convinced this'll do enough to bridge the gap over the GWknowshowlong we'll be waiting for a new book.
Surprised by the angst on Octarius. For 'get you by' rules they are pretty solid.
We finally got a reroll hit buff and as a warlord trait worth taking. This alone will breath new life into the book.
Finally got a couple relics worth taking other than resonance barb. Anyone who has played with or against Skorpekhs will tell you -1 to wound is money. The others aren't too shabby either.
Ability to gain objective secured on any unit... Gives us even more play in board control and objective sniping. Arguably the best strat Black Templars just got and we got an even better version of it.
The new exploding hits strat is insane. It's broken good. 30 devourer gants get ~35 extra hits on average. For one 1 cp. Oh and that's without the new reroll hits warlord trait which bumps it up even more. And it works in close combat too and isn't a power so more reliable then symbiostorm.
Synaptic buffs are solid for the points as well. Some are meh for sure but there's enough there to justify taking 2-3 in your 2k list (other then say Necrons where they are all easily skippable).
All in all my Kraken/Kronos/4AE list just became a much more potent and all rounder Levi/4AE and I am excited to play it.
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Leviathan
+ Stratagems +
Bounty of the Hive Fleet: 1 Extra Bio-artefact
Progeny of the Hive
+ HQ +
Tyrant with Relic brain - Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots, Wings
. Knows an additional power, can do psychic actions and still cast another power, if casts on a 9+ cannot be denied.
Tank mommy - Tervigon: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Smite
. Relic Carapace (-1 to wound), synapse upgrade-in command phase nominate a unit in synapse to reroll wound rolls of 1 or 2.
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Full Reroll Prime - Tyranid Prime: Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs, Warlord
. in command phase nominate one unit within 6" and they get full hit rerolls.
Mally with synaptic upgrade - Maleceptor: Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite
. In command phase, nominate one unit and if they roll a 6 to wound they get +1AP. They can also reroll damage.
Mommy hangs back with the hive guard. gaunts all advance out but string back a bit just so that they can potentially be healed. Malaceptor moves up with the warriors and prime to give them -1 to wound. Hive tyrant does flying hive tyrant things.
Start of turn one is when you can hit real hard with the hive guard cause they get all the buffs. Rerolls to hit from prime, Extra AP on 6's, reroll damage, reroll wound rolls of 1 and 2. Shoot twice and exploding 6's from strats. 24 shots is getting 24-25 hits on average, at strength 8 against a Redemptor dread your getting 17-18 wounds at AP2 and 4 more at AP3. With reroll damage your dealing an average of 16-28 wounds depening on how hot his save rolls are. So you can actually kill 2 redemptors on turn one potentially. Its not a guarentee, but pretty nice. Can smoke a knight as well if you shoot both volleys into one.
Turn 2 you wont be able to full buff the hive guard unless you hang back, but it might be worth it depending on the opponent. If not, give the warriors full rerolls and extra AP on 6's and place them in position to wipe the enemies advance. Hive guard keep reroll wounds buff.
Depending on the matchup and how your opponent is going you can give the hive tyrant kraken for a turn so he can fall back and charge. Or give him kronos so you can use the anti-psycher strat. You could also give the warriors jormy for cover if they dont have it.
Lots of options. CP wont last more than 2 turns unfortunately so get it done quick.
I question any competitive list that doesn't include a full unit of devilgaunts (devourers) if not even 2. They were already a staple in competitive lists and have only gotten better with this new toys.
And if you want to run a big Warrior CC blob take Sword + Whip. That extra attack doesn't matter when you get charged while holding a mid objective and wiped off the board before attacking. Atleast with Whips you force them to commit a second unit to reliably hold the objective afterwards.
Devilgaunts are great, but this list isnt designed with them in mind so i'd rather the extra bodies.
More bodies plays better into leviathan's 6+++ so its also more in theme.
Lashwhips are great if your going double melee weapons, but boneswords are better overall. You shouldnt be getting charged with your warriors ever. Screen with gaunts and terrain so that its always you getting the charge and lash whips are pointless.
Anyone who thinks pyrovores arent a A tier unit knows not 9th edition 40k. They are one of the most point efficient units in the game. There is no other army that can reserve 3 12wound infantry units for 1 CP, who can now btw, come into your opponents deployment zone on round 2 thanks to the new strat. These guys are allstars.
They wont win the game all by themselves no, but they are such a small investment for what they do that they are basically auto-takes.
30x Reroll to hit / Reroll 1,2 to wound and do MW on a 6 to wound. Shot twice and double exploding 6s?
They should be doing 16.66 MW alone each shooting phase for 3 CP. And they can be healed with a Tervigon.
The fleshborer strat is capped at 6MW per phase unfortunately. Should be possible to get near that with just re-rolls, and save the exploding hits for devguants or hive guard.
So, having seem some reviews (and for the first time EVER actually pre-ordered something from GW as a result) I'm pretty happy with the stuff in the book.
Firstly, I never got round to getting Blood of Baal, and i gave up on the app, so those rules being included is gravy.
Secondly, while leviathan got the lions share of the good stuff, I think the new synaptic link rules will be game changing for us (on this note, i really like the +1 to hit for a unit on warriors, old fluff had a much stronger link between warriors and termagaunts particularly, so its very fitting) and is definitely making me think of splitting my 9 man warrior squad into 3. Of course, i think its possible to have 1 warlord trait and 1 adaption? i.e, swap first trait for adaption, then use strat to give someone a trait as well? So maybe I'll stick with 1 big unit with ignore ap -1/-2 and then go full re-rolls trait on someone.
RE-ROLLS!!!! We got re-rolls!!!!
Alternatively, I've sometimes been running an unusual combo to fight my friend's Knights..
6 shockcannon guard in a T-cyte (with v-cannon [yes, i may be the only person on the planet using venom cannons on one of these things] with the "becomes a synapse creature adaptation" so they could drop down anywhere I need em to and not suffer the -1 if not shooting at closest enemy and delete big stuff with MW spam. I'm thinking that being able to daisy chain the warriors hit bonus out to the t-cyte (by means of my flyrant) may just make this combo competitive rather than just being a nasty surprise in friendlies.
I saw some jokers comment that the -1 wound warld trait on a Tervigon is quite nice. That sounds quite good on a T8 14 wound model, even if it is a bit bad.
Niiai wrote: I saw some jokers comment that the -1 wound warld trait on a Tervigon is quite nice. That sounds quite good on a T8 14 wound model, even if it is a bit bad.
I could see using that for a While We Stand secondary, even if it does still suck that it doesn't have an Inv. Not sure what other use the Tervigon will be though.
The tervigon was at the hight of it's power in 5th edition where you needed 3 obligatory troops choises (if I remember correctly.) Grabbing termagants meant that the tervigon became a troop choise, witch was huge in 5th edtion (and the start of 6th edition with the smash attack.)
However, for 9th editon it would be to support squads of tervagants. Either naked units, or bigger units with 20 devilgaunts and 10 tervagants so you can kill things with it and support them.
https://youtu.be/cAHrmP0j7oc Fun over view of the new stuff. Some looks Very good, it gives hope for the future of the Hive Mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Astmeister wrote: The tervigon can get -1 to wound via WL relic and 5++ from dermic symbiosis. That's pretty though.
And 6++ because Leviathan...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So...I don't have the book, so just spit balling....
Prime, Warlord: Rerolls in 9" range, +15 points Synapse power, rolls of 6 to hit auto wound
Warriors, +15 points Synapse power +1 to hit
I am imagining a Hive Mind smash captain swarm....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would this make Rending Claws good again? The rest of the force is MSU Warriors and Stealers in 10 to 15 figure units with a Brood Lord,+15 points gives cover, improves cover Synapse power
Third Commander is Tyrvigon? with Synapse power+15 reroll 1, and 2 when wounding? Trermigants to screen, and play the mission....sounds like maybe legit......
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a cool thing for a Tyranofex with Beetle hives spend 2 CP have your reroll Warlord near and do some Damage! It seems like a lot of new ideas are viable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I Think I heard that a CP can give exploding 6's on Stealers with Rending Claws that sound very nice!
squad of 20 leviathan steelers can get pretty scary yes.
Lets say you can get 10 into one target, and 10 into another target.
Reroll hits from WL trait, +1 to hit from broodlord. 6's to hit become 3 hits (so your rerolling everything but 6's from the first volley), Rerolling wound rolls of 1 and 2 (from tervigon).
You'd be hitting marines and a dreadnought in this example.
40 attacks gets 66.9 hits (assuming no -1 to hit and rerolling all non-6's).
44.6 wounds (11 of which are rends) into marine bodies.
29 ish wounds (11 of which are rends) into T7 targets.
So yeah, genestealers are way up in killiness now. Only costs 2 CP for the exploding strat and your character buffs too.
Note this was just a rough math out, so not super precise, but is close to what it should be.
Astmeister wrote: The tervigon can get -1 to wound via WL relic and 5++ from dermic symbiosis. That's pretty though.
If you want to go wild you can:
Take Warlord trait Perfectly Adapted (reroll one save per battle round) or Adaptive Biology (-1 damage after first phase taking damage)
Use Alpha leader for 1CP to add Gestalt Commander, and pick the Hydra free regeneration trait each round
Add Dermic Symbiosis for 1 CP Add -1 to wound relic
Take Catalyst (possibly on another unit with casting bonuses like a Neurothrope)
Add a Broodlord synaptic link for permanent cover saves and -1 to hit from over 12" away
Add a Maleceptor nearby for -1S
...then slap on Objective Secured for 1CP when needed
Or on the other end of the scale, I'm looking into how to safely deliver a suicide Toxicrene as it's the only codex monster that does a fixed 3 MW on death rather than D3 MW
I think someone mentioned that you cannot stack synaptic agumentations from the synaptic link to one unit. If true you have to re-evaluate some of the combos.
Toxicrene:
Why not drop him with the Tyrannocyte? You can afterwards move him again with the Swarm Lord. Not sure this is worth the effort for 3 MW though.
Toxicrene:
Why not drop him with the Tyrannocyte? You can afterwards move him again with the Swarm Lord. Not sure this is worth the effort for 3 MW though.
You can't use the swarmlords ability to move a unit on the same turn that the target unit arrived as reinforcements. The reinforcement rules prevent a unit from making a Normal Move, Advance, etc for any reason on the turn they arrive.
I am a bit sad that the Octarius book made most units better, which already got a boost earlier or were already good (Maleceptor, Devilgants, Genestealers, Warriors).
While at the same time neglecting almost all of the pretty bad units like Raveners or Gargoyles.
I am a bit sad that the Octarius book made most units better, which already got a boost earlier or were already good (Maleceptor, Devilgants, Genestealers, Warriors).
While at the same time neglecting almost all of the pretty bad units like Raveners or Gargoyles.
Yeah, I agree. We'll need a codex to make those units usable, which seems to be a long way away.
They are automatically equipped with fleshborers for the MW strat, and since they deepstrike your almost always gonna be able to get them all in range to shoot.
They are automatically equipped with fleshborers for the MW strat, and since they deepstrike your almost always gonna be able to get them all in range to shoot.
You can also give them obsec now.
They have been improved greatly.
You're right they have been updated. I don't know if they are good enough now.
The 6 MW cap for the strat really limits it's use.
Against T3 models your doing 12 wounds and 3 mortals.
It doesnt seem impressive at first, but it means they basically kill a guard squad on the drop with the strat and no other buffs. This is pretty useful.
If your keeping them on the table at the start, you can fly them up potentially 36" and charge (since you should have swarmlord). Not to mention shoot with buffs since they are assault weaponry.
They dont kill nearly as much as genestealers, but they are cheaper, and with blinding venom almost as hard to kill if you toss catalyst on them.
Gargs are a great first turn threat/backfield threat and so work in any matchup.
Niiai wrote: Probably not. But the barrier of entry for competetive is quite high.
I do belive there was one of the competetive haridan lists ran some gargpyes as it is a good transport for them.
The Harridan lists intrigue me, I agree. But yeah, not sure why we would care about mulching a squad of guardsmen with deepstriking gargoyles, everything about that sentence feels irrelevant. And heck, replace Guardsmen with something relevant and T3 like Skitarii. You do way worse because of saves.
I am not syaing it is good. But you are misrepresenting the senario. The Haridan can transport them. ( TRANSPORT This model has a transport capacity of 20 <HIVE FLEET> GARGOYLES models. ) Beeing in a harridan is much better then deepstriking. People generally leave the harridan alone. If it has dermic symbiosis you really need to comit to bracket it. Also you can not charge it as it is a flyer.
This means the gargoyles will have much better controll of where they want to go, and potensially charge. Further the Harridan can not hold objectives, but the gargoyles can.
If you are gonne write them of then at least do so for the right reasons.
Niiai wrote: I am not syaing it is good. But you are misrepresenting the senario. The Haridan can transport them. ( TRANSPORT This model has a transport capacity of 20 <HIVE FLEET> GARGOYLES models. ) Beeing in a harridan is much better then deepstriking. People generally leave the harridan alone. If it has dermic symbiosis you really need to comit to bracket it. Also you can not charge it as it is a flyer.
This means the gargoyles will have much better controll of where they want to go, and potensially charge. Further the Harridan can not hold objectives, but the gargoyles can.
If you are gonne write them of then at least do so for the right reasons.
Ohh yeah sorry I was responding more to Eihnlazer's post but I quoted you. I get why that is confusing. I find the Harridan+Gargoyle idea much more interesting, I agree with you.
I have to say I am really suprised by the power they put into this book. Taking a proper Levithan list now with the new stratagems and synaptic links seems like it will be absolutely devastating. I had no intention of dusting off my Nids since Thousand Sons are so fun to play, but I might have to.
The new Synergy with Hive guard is especially nuts. Loading them up with reroll all failed hits or +1 to hit with our double shoot stratagem is going to just obliterate a lot of armies. Give a Dima Heavy and Light cover? Solid. Termagants can actually be a threat now? Also solid. While we are still leaning on some crutches like Hive guard, it feels like I can actually play some competitive games now and not get completely rolled over.
Ok 2 questions:
1: Read a battle report recently that had a bunch of Gants come in on a Lictors pheremone trail. I thought the consensus was that the Pheremone Trail was useless. What's up? Is there a change via FAQ or something?
2: Exocrenes. I knew they were popular for a while, how to people feel about/use them now? I have one waiting to be painted up and I wonder if I should reprioritize it, get more, whatever.
Insectum7 wrote: Ok 2 questions:
1: Read a battle report recently that had a bunch of Gants come in on a Lictors pheremone trail. I thought the consensus was that the Pheremone Trail was useless. What's up? Is there a change via FAQ or something?
2: Exocrenes. I knew they were popular for a while, how to people feel about/use them now? I have one waiting to be painted up and I wonder if I should reprioritize it, get more, whatever.
1. Something did indeed change. There where no good targets for that stratagem. 9th edition has a stratagem that allows you to reserve anything. Ithas really bad restrictions to where they come onto the board. The lictor stratagem helps with that. A solution in serach for a problem.
2. They are stil good I believe. They got a high competetion from the forgeworld modesl when they got updates. They are still in ship shape. And tyranids have the usual problems of beeing very dependend on stratagems.
Insectum7 wrote: Ok 2 questions: 1: Read a battle report recently that had a bunch of Gants come in on a Lictors pheremone trail. I thought the consensus was that the Pheremone Trail was useless. What's up? Is there a change via FAQ or something?
2: Exocrenes. I knew they were popular for a while, how to people feel about/use them now? I have one waiting to be painted up and I wonder if I should reprioritize it, get more, whatever.
Yeah, strategic reserve in 9th edition has made pheromone trail usable. It was bad back in 8th edition, because the ability to reposition a unit arriving from reserve was pointless when all your abilities to reserve units in the codex were already deepstrikes. But now in 9th there's a method of reserving stuff which pheromone trail actually can improve. Coupled with devilgaunts going down to 7 points, and lictors becoming very useful for scoring secondaries, you see it used reasonably often now.
Exocrines are still good, but they've taken a couple of recent hits which have made people start to question them a bit more. One is that Symbiostorm now requires an unmodified 6 to trigger, which means exocrines no longer trigger it on a 5+. Another is the change to abilities which count models as stationary, so it can no longer benefit from the Symbiotic Devastation stratagem on the turn it arrives from reserve. Making it a bit harder to protect from an alpha strike (it did simultaneously gain the ability to fall back and use this stratagem, so it's kind of a side-grade. But I still think it lost out overall). Another is the arrival of Orks into the meta. The Ramshackle rule applies -1 damage to weapons below S8, which makes S7 exocrines not the greatest against them (the existing sources of -1 damage like dreadnoughts and death guard already gave them trouble. Now there's just more of it.) Also the new octarius rules provide a bunch of buffs which work better on hive guard than exocrines. People are still exploring the best new combos, but bringing more hive guard instead of exocrines seems to be what people are currently leaning towards.
This is a list that did good work at a recent tourney, Pre-Octavious buffs...food for thought...
to put it bluntly, seems like a weaker version of nidzilla. Not bad but its significantly worse than the better versions imo
Well...it did win some games....
It is not the sort of list I would build, that is what makes it interesting to me. I can learn far more from other styles, than being in an "echo-chamber". My take away was his heavy use of Termagants and Lictors to play the mission, while the Big Bugs did the "distraction-Carnifex" job on steroids.
I think the biggest change is not the new rules (though those do help) it is that it is finally getting through to TO's that more terrain makes for better games, and helps with the go first, I win issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the new Synapse boosts help Exocrenes a Bunch, both the re-roll all, and the +1 to hit are big assets. Having both available, and putting one on an Exo, and one on a Hiveguard Brood will be a good way to run a shooting list. Kronos is back baby!
This is a list that did good work at a recent tourney, Pre-Octavious buffs...food for thought...
to put it bluntly, seems like a weaker version of nidzilla. Not bad but its significantly worse than the better versions imo
Well...it did win some games....
Yeah. And so do better lists?
There is nothing echo chamber about my post, I'm stating my own opinion, not anybody else's. I think that this list is a concept that I've been saying is really strong for us for ages, yet the execution of his list is just lacking. So much points wasted on stuff that draws away from what the list wants to do and doesn't add much. Ironically it looks like the sort of list someone would build if they WERE just living in the echo chamber and needed to include one of every unit they had heard was good at least once, rather than playtesting the actual playstyle of the list and finding what it needs.
pinecone77 wrote: My take away was his heavy use of Termagants and Lictors to play the mission, while the Big Bugs did the "distraction-Carnifex" job on steroids.
Literally EXACTLY what my Nidzilla list does (except this one fits less Gants), and what I've been saying it should be doing for like a year now. He's running 150 pts of Gants in 3x 10 squads man, that's just not really enough, and not really "heavy use" at all.
I think the new Synapse boosts help Exocrenes a Bunch, both the re-roll all, and the +1 to hit are big assets. Having both available, and putting one on an Exo, and one on a Hiveguard Brood will be a good way to run a shooting list. Kronos is back baby!
The thing is though, neither of those buffs work on Exocrines. The re-roll all hits warlord trait only works on Infantry, Beasts, or Swarms (also it's locked to hive fleet leviathan). The +1 to hit is made redundant by the exocrines own Symbiotic Targeting ability (+1 to hit if it doesn't move). Since 9th edition won't let you get more than +1 to hit, this is only useful on the exocrine to negate a -1 to hit.
It's not that exocrines have gotten too much worse, it's mainly that the new buffs either don't work on them, or just work much better on other units.
I guess the tervigons synaptic link to re-roll 1's and 2's to wound isn't bad on an exocrine. But I'm still a bit leery of tervigons.
I think the new Synapse boosts help Exocrenes a Bunch, both the re-roll all, and the +1 to hit are big assets. Having both available, and putting one on an Exo, and one on a Hiveguard Brood will be a good way to run a shooting list. Kronos is back baby!
The thing is though, neither of those buffs work on Exocrines.
The re-roll all hits warlord trait only works on Infantry, Beasts, or Swarms (also it's locked to hive fleet leviathan).
The +1 to hit is made redundant by the exocrines own Symbiotic Targeting ability (+1 to hit if it doesn't move). Since 9th edition won't let you get more than +1 to hit, this is only useful on the exocrine to negate a -1 to hit.
It's not that exocrines have gotten too much worse, it's mainly that the new buffs either don't work on them, or just work much better on other units.
I guess the tervigons synaptic link to re-roll 1's and 2's to wound isn't bad on an exocrine. But I'm still a bit leery of tervigons.
Symbiostorm moving to unmodified 6's is a big nerf to the Exocrine.
This is a list that did good work at a recent tourney, Pre-Octavious buffs...food for thought...
to put it bluntly, seems like a weaker version of nidzilla. Not bad but its significantly worse than the better versions imo
Well...it did win some games....
Yeah. And so do better lists?
There is nothing echo chamber about my post, I'm stating my own opinion, not anybody else's. I think that this list is a concept that I've been saying is really strong for us for ages, yet the execution of his list is just lacking. So much points wasted on stuff that draws away from what the list wants to do and doesn't add much. Ironically it looks like the sort of list someone would build if they WERE just living in the echo chamber and needed to include one of every unit they had heard was good at least once, rather than playtesting the actual playstyle of the list and finding what it needs.
pinecone77 wrote: My take away was his heavy use of Termagants and Lictors to play the mission, while the Big Bugs did the "distraction-Carnifex" job on steroids.
Literally EXACTLY what my Nidzilla list does (except this one fits less Gants), and what I've been saying it should be doing for like a year now. He's running 150 pts of Gants in 3x 10 squads man, that's just not really enough, and not really "heavy use" at all.
Being negative about any/all is a form of "echo-chamber" and it is one that does harm.
I think the new Synapse boosts help Exocrenes a Bunch, both the re-roll all, and the +1 to hit are big assets. Having both available, and putting one on an Exo, and one on a Hiveguard Brood will be a good way to run a shooting list. Kronos is back baby!
The thing is though, neither of those buffs work on Exocrines.
The re-roll all hits warlord trait only works on Infantry, Beasts, or Swarms (also it's locked to hive fleet leviathan).
The +1 to hit is made redundant by the exocrines own Symbiotic Targeting ability (+1 to hit if it doesn't move). Since 9th edition won't let you get more than +1 to hit, this is only useful on the exocrine to negate a -1 to hit.
It's not that exocrines have gotten too much worse, it's mainly that the new buffs either don't work on them, or just work much better on other units.
I guess the tervigons synaptic link to re-roll 1's and 2's to wound isn't bad on an exocrine. But I'm still a bit leery of tervigons.
But....it does help (+1 to hit) when you run out from behind cover, or fall back and shoot (using strats/ Swarmy) doesn't it?
This is a list that did good work at a recent tourney, Pre-Octavious buffs...food for thought...
to put it bluntly, seems like a weaker version of nidzilla. Not bad but its significantly worse than the better versions imo
Well...it did win some games....
Yeah. And so do better lists?
There is nothing echo chamber about my post, I'm stating my own opinion, not anybody else's. I think that this list is a concept that I've been saying is really strong for us for ages, yet the execution of his list is just lacking. So much points wasted on stuff that draws away from what the list wants to do and doesn't add much. Ironically it looks like the sort of list someone would build if they WERE just living in the echo chamber and needed to include one of every unit they had heard was good at least once, rather than playtesting the actual playstyle of the list and finding what it needs.
pinecone77 wrote: My take away was his heavy use of Termagants and Lictors to play the mission, while the Big Bugs did the "distraction-Carnifex" job on steroids.
Literally EXACTLY what my Nidzilla list does (except this one fits less Gants), and what I've been saying it should be doing for like a year now. He's running 150 pts of Gants in 3x 10 squads man, that's just not really enough, and not really "heavy use" at all.
Being negative about any/all is a form of "echo-chamber" and it is one that does harm.
Cool story, point me to where I've literally EVER done that? I'm constantly sharing positive opinions that don't match up with the groupthink - that often to turn out to be correct later on down the line. Being completely incapable of taking criticism to a list you think is strong is the only viewpoint here doing anyone harm.
But....it does help (+1 to hit) when you run out from behind cover, or fall back and shoot (using strats/ Swarmy) doesn't it?
It helps in the case where you want to move two exocrines in one turn. We've already got the Symbiotic Devastation stratagem for the first one, which is far better due to also letting it use Weapon Beast to shoot twice. The second exocrine could use the +1 to hit due to not getting to use its own Symbiotic Targeting ability, but it'll still only get 6 shots.
It doesn't help in the case where you fall back and shoot, because the only way to do that is with the Symbiotic Devastation stratagem which already allows it to benefit from Symbiotic Targeting.
So the +1 to hit is a very minor benefit on exocrines. It's redundant due an existing much better ability, and only helps them when they are already suffering penalties. Comparatively, put the +1 to hit on hive guard where it's an awesome bonus all the time.
I believe that there are some new strats though. And one can let you fall back and shoot, though I am hoping that we can get more play without strats as Nids are very thirsty and spending fewer per turn would be nice.
Oh right, the trygon primes synaptic link. Yeah that lets you fall back and shoot. However that can't be stacked with the +1 to hit, because you can't apply two synaptic links to the same unit. So it still doesn't help.
Yeah, I have not purchased the Octavius book, yet. But here are my ideas based on watching you-tube videos....
This is my "style" so YMMV...
My standard list will be three units of MSU Warriors, with at least one, possibly two having Synaptic link just too good not to have
One large 15+ Brood of Stealers, and a Broodlord with Synaptic link
two Lictors, and a unit of Rippers for "pop-up" use, and 6 Hive Guard. It is after that when I get wondering.....
I really want to use my beloved Tyranofex and maybe finally use Beetle hive with the new toys. I also want to try out a Tervigon with some kit, and 30 Termigants with maybe three Venos to hold the center, and backfield....?
The Malecepter also looks fun, but I don't think it can make a competitive list sadly.
I think I will be trying out a Prime, with Synaptic link as a Warlord as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also use Zoeys and Neuro, so the new Synaptic link looks like a must take as well. (only 10 points!)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also want to revisit using Hormagaunts with custom fleet adapt for -1 AC, with the new strats and powers they might be a decent "bomb" unit ...maybe!
This has me excited to dust off the Nids and try em.
Is it me, or is the Tervigon now nearing an "unkillable dreadnought" level.
T8 3+/5++/6++ (or 5++ with Catalyst)
Get 5++ with Dermic Symbiosis
Biomorphic Crapace grants -1 to wound
WLT Adaptive Bioliogy, reduce dmg by 1 after first wound
Take Alpha Leader and grab Swarm Leader for buff as second WLT
Optional Support units:
Consider adding Malanthrope for -1 to hit
Maleceptor for -1 Str
Strategy:
Hold center of board.
Surround with gants getting rerrolls of 1 to hit and 1,2 to wound. Possibly buffing with full rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, someone please check my math on the devilgant bomb.
Use the stratagem to Turn 30 Devilgants into Kronos
Have kronos Neuorpthope cast sybmiostorm for extra hit on 6s
use Stratagem relentless fury for another +2 hits on 6s for large units of 11+ models.
So for each 6 you get an additional 3 hits.
Reroll 1s (kronos) you get 105 hits with 17.5 of those being 6's which become 70 total hits. (17.5*4 since the 6 is a hit; basically tesla on steroids). So 175 hits total.
87.5 wounds on T4
with reroll 1,2 wound from tervigon Weaons Gestation Synaptic link you get 116 wounds. On 3+ save your still doing 38 wounds.
Then you can single minded annihilation and do it again if anything is left still in range.
Alternatively, dont change to kronos, dont use symbiostorm, and instead use Swarm Commander for full rerolls.
135 hits with 2 extra hits on 6s so another (22.5*3) for 67.5 hits. Thus 202.5 hits total. So on T4 101.25 wounds.
If rerolling 1,2 you get another 16.875 wounds. so 118 wounds total on T4. With 3+ save you do 39.33 wounds.
So slightly better this way.
I wonder if there is a threshold for which is better with T3 vs T4. My head hurts. Someone plug into the hive mind and me out here. XD
Dynas wrote: This has me excited to dust off the Nids and try em.
Is it me, or is the Tervigon now nearing an "unkillable dreadnought" level.
T8 3+/5++/6++ (or 5++ with Catalyst)
Get 5++ with Dermic Symbiosis
Biomorphic Crapace grants -1 to wound
WLT Adaptive Bioliogy, reduce dmg by 1 after first wound
Take Alpha Leader and grab Swarm Leader for buff as second WLT
Optional Support units:
Consider adding Malanthrope for -1 to hit
Maleceptor for -1 Str
Strategy:
Hold center of board.
Surround with gants getting rerrolls of 1 to hit and 1,2 to wound. Possibly buffing with full rerolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, someone please check my math on the devilgant bomb.
Use the stratagem to Turn 30 Devilgants into Kronos
Have kronos Neuorpthope cast sybmiostorm for extra hit on 6s
use Stratagem relentless fury for another +2 hits on 6s for large units of 11+ models.
So for each 6 you get an additional 3 hits.
Reroll 1s (kronos) you get 105 hits with 17.5 of those being 6's which become 70 total hits. (17.5*4 since the 6 is a hit; basically tesla on steroids). So 175 hits total.
87.5 wounds on T4
with reroll 1,2 wound from tervigon Weaons Gestation Synaptic link you get 116 wounds. On 3+ save your still doing 38 wounds.
Then you can single minded annihilation and do it again if anything is left still in range.
Alternatively, dont change to kronos, dont use symbiostorm, and instead use Swarm Commander for full rerolls.
135 hits with 2 extra hits on 6s so another (22.5*3) for 67.5 hits. Thus 202.5 hits total. So on T4 101.25 wounds.
If rerolling 1,2 you get another 16.875 wounds. so 118 wounds total on T4. With 3+ save you do 39.33 wounds.
So slightly better this way.
I wonder if there is a threshold for which is better with T3 vs T4. My head hurts. Someone plug into the hive mind and me out here. XD
Just kill the gants, problem solved for your enemy
The "super" Terv does have promise, as you can blarp out reinforcements to units that don't get eliminated, letting you play the mission with some chance. Termigants are already a good basic troop for Nids, so getting buffs is always a good thing.
Also, someone please check my math on the devilgant bomb.
Use the stratagem to Turn 30 Devilgants into Kronos Have kronos Neuorpthope cast sybmiostorm for extra hit on 6s use Stratagem relentless fury for another +2 hits on 6s for large units of 11+ models. So for each 6 you get an additional 3 hits.
Reroll 1s (kronos) you get 105 hits with 17.5 of those being 6's which become 70 total hits. (17.5*4 since the 6 is a hit; basically tesla on steroids). So 175 hits total. 87.5 wounds on T4 with reroll 1,2 wound from tervigon Weaons Gestation Synaptic link you get 116 wounds. On 3+ save your still doing 38 wounds.
Then you can single minded annihilation and do it again if anything is left still in range.
Alternatively, dont change to kronos, dont use symbiostorm, and instead use Swarm Commander for full rerolls. 135 hits with 2 extra hits on 6s so another (22.5*3) for 67.5 hits. Thus 202.5 hits total. So on T4 101.25 wounds. If rerolling 1,2 you get another 16.875 wounds. so 118 wounds total on T4. With 3+ save you do 39.33 wounds.
So slightly better this way.
I wonder if there is a threshold for which is better with T3 vs T4. My head hurts. Someone plug into the hive mind and me out here. XD
A few issues with that.
Firstly the Hyper Adaption stratagem does not change their faction keyword. It just changes their hive fleet adaptation. So you could not cast Symbiostorm on them. They're still Leviathan units, just ones that have swapped out their 6+++ for a different ability.
Secondly the Hyper Adaption stratagem is used in the command phase, meaning the devilgaunts had to start their turn on the table. Generally you want to deepstrike devilgaunts in as a 'bomb' for them to be intact to hit a target. Usually by the time their next turn rolls around they are either dead or stuck in combat. Synaptic links and the Swarm Leader warlord trait have the same issue where they have to be applied in the command phase, so aren't of much use to a deepstriking unit. If you manage to have the gaunts survive unengaged until their next turn, then great, go right ahead. But best not to count on it happening.
The Relentless Flurry + shoot twice stratagems are about the best you can do for a deepstriking devilgaunt bomb on the turn they arrive. Still, that's already quite powerful.
Pretty cagey list actually. Hide the warriors best i can, screen with the big fleshborer gaunt unit, deep strike the lictors and reserve the pyro's. Use the strategic adeptation to reserve the 2 devilgaunt squads. now you have alot of options for secondaries.
You can take engage on all fronts and start the gargs and FHT on the board to go for that turn 1, or you can deep strike both of those units for very little on the board. If your opponent has forward deploy units you can also just go to kill them with those 2 units as well. Gargs with full rerolls, exploding hits , reroll 1's and 2's to wound, and mortals actually do alot of damage.
You can also just use them to clog up the midfield for a turn, and bait your opponent into going in and trying to wipe them out, leaving the flanks open for your round 2 strike.
The lictor/devilgaunt pheremone trail combo is known, but i doubt it gets seen too much so this list is gonna make it infamous. You've also got pyrovores that can pop in and flame screen units or do chip damage, or actions.
This list almost guarentees you full points on engage, ROD, and depending on opponent Behind Enemy Lines as well.
I only forsee problems against 2+ sv lists and vehicle spam. Vehicle spam/knight isnt a fun matchup, but you can chip damage most stuff down with the devilbombs (which you will get 2 guarenteed full volleys) and the mortals from fleshborers. We also have 3 venom cannons and the miasma cannon to do some more chunks of damage, along with the FHT's melee (should be able to drop a transport a turn).
Its got teeth, tons of board control, some speed early or late depending on whats needed, and alot of backfield pressure. If you think your opponent is gonna be in your face turn 1 you can always just not deepstrike everything and screen with the cheap 30man gaunt unit and the gargs. Tervigon is almost unkillable so youve got a reliable backfield holder as well.
Looking to start a nid army have gard custodes and DA already
Want it to be monster heavy with a dimacharon and one hiveguard unit any list ideas would be helpful more fun than compeditive
Moar recent results. This guy takes forever to say stuff, but worth a listen. He runs Forgeworld sadly, so lots of what his list has is not useful for most, but if you think what you can replace those models with...?
One of each Hierodule. Minimum squad of warriors for bs+. Malrceptor for stratagem (presumably. ) Lictors for seconderies. 2 units of hive guards. 2 gaunts for blocking, 2 units of ripper swarms. Swarmlord for sling. Neuronthrope for psykick powers.
The melee Hierodule is hard to replace. But the shooting one could be covered by an exoshrine. (It is essentially a super exoshrine.)
Barbed is 275. Exochrine is 170.
Scythed heirodules closest replacement are flying hive tyrant with murderus sieze, or Genestealer. The other big melee monsters die to easaly. You could try running those. You can probably trim the 7 base swarm unit, and put give guards down to five man units if you need the points.
Note that the malrceptor gets worse once it does not guard T8 models. But I assume he is also there for the Swarmlord to slingshot turn 2.
Note if you do not have *checks notes* 12 hive guards you can probably supplement with tyranofexes and or exoshrine. The list runs 815 points in heavy artillery. As most tyranids list should, we are secretly a shoot army but suffering from false advertisement.
He was running Kronos. Yeah I was thinking on the same lines...A Murder Tyrant, and an Exocrene, I like MSU Warriors, and Leviathan loves them as well,..so..
Both units have 12 shots at str8 ap-2 d3 damage, but hive guard are infantry, ignore LOS, and ignore light cover.
Barbed gets more range, T8, +2 sv, and better all its shots from any point on its model.
Because of stratagems and multi-damage weaponry, a single squad of hive guard will always be better than a single barbed. If your taking multiple though, the barbed starts to even out a bit.
As far as hive fleets, Barbed heirodules are way better in jormy, whereas all other hive fleets benefit both units equally.
Also, if your up against anti-tank units, hive guard are supremely better, whereas if your opponent is playing predominately melee the barbed is better.
I am also thinking about GSC, as a Patrol, you can get some "blips" and a Magus It might pay off to get used to using some now, and then profit when they drop the GSC codex (next year )
With the advent of the synapse stuff im thinking of using warriors and tervigon synapse to truck up the titan.
The question of the day is... do I spend a cp on dermic symbiosis, or murderous size on the whips? Or do I play massive queen game and give it synapse?
Assuming that I will be Kronos for the re rolling 1s to shoot and troning it up with catalyst, symbiostorm, + 1 to hit from warrior synapse and re roll 1-2 s to wound. and maybe some venomthropes. I can even spring for the +1 cover save from the broodlord and -1 str incoming shots from the maleceptor.
Does this make it tanky enough to survive?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah this list also contains 6 hive guard to really hammer down the baddies. I can adjust points by toying with my devil guants.
With the advent of the synapse stuff im thinking of using warriors and tervigon synapse to truck up the titan.
The question of the day is... do I spend a cp on dermic symbiosis, or murderous size on the whips? Or do I play massive queen game and give it synapse?
Assuming that I will be Kronos for the re rolling 1s to shoot and troning it up with catalyst, symbiostorm, + 1 to hit from warrior synapse and re roll 1-2 s to wound. and maybe some venomthropes. I can even spring for the +1 cover save from the broodlord and -1 str incoming shots from the maleceptor.
Does this make it tanky enough to survive?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah this list also contains 6 hive guard to really hammer down the baddies. I can adjust points by toying with my devil guants.
I'd go with dermic symbiosis. The 5++ doesn't help it at all, since it already has that save, but halving the damage table is still worth it to keep it fighting efficiently longer.
A few corrections/limitations though:
It will not get the Kronos re-roll 1's to shoot ability, because you pretty much have to take it in a superheavy auxiliary detachment. Units in aux detachments do not benefit from detachment bonuses (they do still get a faction keyword though, so you can use faction stratagems/auras/powers/etc on them). The only way for it to get a detachment bonus is by putting it in a full superheavy detachment, which would require 3 superheavies, which won't fit in a 2k sized game.
Secondly you can't put more than one synaptic link onto a unit at the same time. So it can't have both the warriors +1 to hit, and the tervigons re-roll 1-2s to wound at once. You have to pick each turn which link seems more useful.
This is all sad news for my titan. But I do thing dermic is the right call. It will definitely save me more hassle than 3 wounds back in melee each turn
Crusher stampede seems really good. Only limitations are bringing more Monster keyword units than non-Monster, and no models with less than 2 wounds, and losing access to hive fleet adaptations. For that you get armywide 5++, -1D on all Monsters, and Monsters count the number of wounds remaining per model for the purposes of determining model count on an objective. Then access to some warlord traits (pretty decent ones, exploding 6s aura for Monsters within 6", or -1 to hit and attrition tests for enemies in engagement range, or +D3 attacks each fight phase), psychic powers (best one is full melee hit rerolls for one target within 18" for 6 warp charge), and stratagems: some really nutty stuff here like +1 to hit, wound, and damage to a monster that just piled-in for 2 CP, Fight on Death for a non-character monster, Transhuman for any target including Monsters (2 CP to target a monster), an upgraded version of Brute Force for 1 CP (max 6 mortal wounds), you roll dice = remaining wounds for the charging model and if your strength is higher than a target model in a unit's toughness (you get to choose which model so long as they are within engagement range) the MW triggers on a 3+, 4+ if strength is equal to toughness, 5+ if it is lower than toughness.
Losing hive fleet adaptations isn't a big deal. Leviathan was all that was being taken anyway, due to the octarius supplement, and trading a 6+++ for an armywide 5++ and -1 damage on all monsters sounds like a great bargain to me. You also still get the Leviathan keyword, so still have access to all the stratagems and stuff, in case you want to make your big FW monster that counts as 18 models obsec.
Madjob wrote: Crusher stampede seems really good. Only limitations are bringing more Monster keyword units than non-Monster, and no models with less than 2 wounds, and losing access to hive fleet adaptations. For that you get armywide 5++, -1D on all Monsters, and Monsters count the number of wounds remaining per model for the purposes of determining model count on an objective. Then access to some warlord traits (pretty decent ones, exploding 6s aura for Monsters within 6", or -1 to hit and attrition tests for enemies in engagement range, or +D3 attacks each fight phase), psychic powers (best one is full melee hit rerolls for one target within 18" for 6 warp charge), and stratagems: some really nutty stuff here like +1 to hit, wound, and damage to a monster that just piled-in for 2 CP, Fight on Death for a non-character monster, Transhuman for any target including Monsters (2 CP to target a monster), an upgraded version of Brute Force for 1 CP (max 6 mortal wounds), you roll dice = remaining wounds for the charging model and if your strength is higher than a target model in a unit's toughness (you get to choose which model so long as they are within engagement range) the MW triggers on a 3+, 4+ if strength is equal to toughness, 5+ if it is lower than toughness.
Honestly that just makes me want to field a bunch of Warriors rocking a 5++, with whatever Monsters I'm feelin at the moment.
Madjob wrote: Crusher stampede seems really good. Only limitations are bringing more Monster keyword units than non-Monster, and no models with less than 2 wounds, and losing access to hive fleet adaptations. For that you get armywide 5++, -1D on all Monsters, and Monsters count the number of wounds remaining per model for the purposes of determining model count on an objective. Then access to some warlord traits (pretty decent ones, exploding 6s aura for Monsters within 6", or -1 to hit and attrition tests for enemies in engagement range, or +D3 attacks each fight phase), psychic powers (best one is full melee hit rerolls for one target within 18" for 6 warp charge), and stratagems: some really nutty stuff here like +1 to hit, wound, and damage to a monster that just piled-in for 2 CP, Fight on Death for a non-character monster, Transhuman for any target including Monsters (2 CP to target a monster), an upgraded version of Brute Force for 1 CP (max 6 mortal wounds), you roll dice = remaining wounds for the charging model and if your strength is higher than a target model in a unit's toughness (you get to choose which model so long as they are within engagement range) the MW triggers on a 3+, 4+ if strength is equal to toughness, 5+ if it is lower than toughness.
Honestly that just makes me want to field a bunch of Warriors rocking a 5++, with whatever Monsters I'm feelin at the moment.
I was thinking the same. Innate 5++ means less vulnerability to heavy weapons, the damage reduction on Monsters means Warriors are not likely to be the targets of D3 or higher weapons, and W3 makes them fairly durable against D2. Unbreakable Chitin, one of the new stratagems, is straight-up Transhuman Physiology (wound rolls of 1-3 auto-fail, 1CP for 5 models or fewer, 2CP for more). Warriors are also the only legal Troops choice in a Crusher Stampede, so taking 3 units at minimum to get a Battalion seems reasonable.
To be clear, the restriction on non-Monster units is that you must have at least one Monster unit for every non-Monster unit. That unfortunately means a unit of 3 Carnifexes still only counts as 1 Monster unit. Fortunately, we can very easily fill HQ and Heavy Support choices with useful Monsters, and then have Haruspexes, Maleceptors, and Dimachaerons for Elites and Fast Attack, so it's not as restrictive as it could be, but you will have to design lists with that requirement in mind.
Don't forget also that while the units in a Crusher Stampede don't get a subfaction trait, they still count as being part of a subfaction, so they can still be played as Leviathan for access to the new stratagems.
Edit: I think it's also going to be interesting to go through all our Monsters and see which ones benefit most. A lot of our currently-played big critters are popular because they either have a 5++ innately or are good candidates for Dermic Symbiosis; I could see Crusher Stampede shaking that up a bit.
Tyran wrote: The biggest winners are Heirodules and Harridans, two good units without an innate 5++, competitive nid armies are likely still going to use those.
Hierodules and Harridans were already being given Dermic Symbiosis, and probably still will be to limit degradation. So they're not really getting anything out of the 5++ provided by Crusher Stampede, just the damage reduction. I'm sure they're both still going to be just as popular as before, but the units that get the most benefit from Crusher Stampede are monsters that didn't have an innate invuln and wouldn't be good candidates for Adaptive Physiology.
Whether any of the units that fit that description are now good enough for competitive play is another matter.
Tyran wrote: The biggest winners are Heirodules and Harridans, two good units without an innate 5++, competitive nid armies are likely still going to use those.
Hierodules and Harridans were already being given Dermic Symbiosis, and probably still will be to limit degradation. So they're not really getting anything out of the 5++ provided by Crusher Stampede, just the damage reduction. I'm sure they're both still going to be just as popular as before, but the units that get the most benefit from Crusher Stampede are monsters that didn't have an innate invuln and wouldn't be good candidates for Adaptive Physiology.
Whether any of the units that fit that description are now good enough for competitive play is another matter.
Or you could use any other Adaptive Physiology rather than being locked to Dermic Symbiosis.
How about Trygons? I just painted up three Mawlagons recently but haven't had the chance to use them yet. But I like the idea of Trygons, and damage reduction, 5++ etc seem nice for them.
The only other Monsters I have painted up atm are Swarmlord and Walkrant, both of which already bring a 4++.
I do have a Harridan, buf thats a ways off from being fieldable. It's just gray parts.
This looks to cover all the "new" Stampede stuff...warning it is long but you can jump past to the "good stuff"
Personally I am thinking a Stampede plus a Patrol of little guys (Stealers )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I Want to use Carnifexen...sadly the expensive Dakafex is looking like the best choice...but I want to theory craft a bunch of Canifexen, with Ole One Eye...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also want Tyrannofex to become good again...
This looks to cover all the "new" Stampede stuff...warning it is long but you can jump past to the "good stuff"
Personally I am thinking a Stampede plus a Patrol of little guys (Stealers )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I Want to use Carnifexen...sadly the expensive Dakafex is looking like the best choice...but I want to theory craft a bunch of Canifexen, with Ole One Eye...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also want Tyrannofex to become good again...
I did not scrutinize the pages I saw for this specifically, as it is something that has been standard for all Army of Renown rulesets so far, but Crusher Stampede should enforce its restrictions across your army, not a detachment, unless White Dwarf botched it and forgot to include that wording. So if any detachments in your army break the restrictions, you don't get to use the Crusher Stampede rules.
Oh god I hope you can use this in a tournament setting. Always wanted to play my Flying hives + swarmlord + Tyrant gaurd army....
Question: Adeptive Physiology states that you can take it instead of determining a warlord trait for your warlord. Can you still use the alpha leader beast stratagem (leviathan) to get an extra warlord trait? And can you switch this for another adeptive physiology?
Starts with 8 CP, but is still a nightmare to deal with. Basically give swarmy the new discipline and pick the 4++ and the +d3 attacks power.
Deploy your warriors hidden but in range for objectives, you harridan to one side of the table and everything else hidden as well as possible but under malanthrope bubble. Secondaries are gonna lean heavily into EoaF, banners, bring it down, and TTL. Dont try for stranglehold unless going up against elite infantry spam as you will actually out-elite them.
Turn one is a classic, drop harridan into hover mode and double move him into your opponents core with swarmy. Make sure he's fully buffed. Even easier if you go second, as youll likely be able to double move a scythed instead and get him and the harridan in. With the +d3 attacks and +1 to hit on the harridan he is scary as all gettout. 6-8 attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's that are at str10, ap-3, flat 6 damage are rough for anyone, especially since you can likely deal upwards of 17 mortal wounds on the charge with the new strat. You one-shot mortarion with this guy on average..........
The scytheds are no slouch either, and if you happen to get them into something big you also have the +1 to hit, wound, and damage strat you can use.
I dont see anything really surviving this list for more than 3 turns, and the only thing that can kill it back reasonably well is admech infantry spam (which has fallen to the wayside).
IF you'd like to run something a little more FW-light i'd sugges the following:
6 carnifexin and OOE become your threat overload on one side of the board, and you get additional troops and a second harpy. More more swarmy version of the monster mash. Its just a good deal slower out the gate.
Starts with 8 CP, but is still a nightmare to deal with. Basically give swarmy the new discipline and pick the 4++ and the +d3 attacks power.
Deploy your warriors hidden but in range for objectives, you harridan to one side of the table and everything else hidden as well as possible but under malanthrope bubble. Secondaries are gonna lean heavily into EoaF, banners, bring it down, and TTL. Dont try for stranglehold unless going up against elite infantry spam as you will actually out-elite them.
Turn one is a classic, drop harridan into hover mode and double move him into your opponents core with swarmy. Make sure he's fully buffed. Even easier if you go second, as youll likely be able to double move a scythed instead and get him and the harridan in. With the +d3 attacks and +1 to hit on the harridan he is scary as all gettout. 6-8 attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's that are at str10, ap-3, flat 6 damage are rough for anyone, especially since you can likely deal upwards of 17 mortal wounds on the charge with the new strat. You one-shot mortarion with this guy on average..........
The scytheds are no slouch either, and if you happen to get them into something big you also have the +1 to hit, wound, and damage strat you can use.
I dont see anything really surviving this list for more than 3 turns, and the only thing that can kill it back reasonably well is admech infantry spam (which has fallen to the wayside).
IF you'd like to run something a little more FW-light i'd sugges the following:
6 carnifexin and OOE become your threat overload on one side of the board, and you get additional troops and a second harpy. More more swarmy version of the monster mash. Its just a good deal slower out the gate.
Swarmy with these powers is a bit of a waste, just have a Neuro go for 4++ and +D3 attacks and Swamy with Fight last/Run and charge and FNP
no your right, i just misread it. not quite as ridiculous that way thank the lord. Still nice to guarentee 6 mortals with the heirodules and the big boy.
So between the sporocysts and harpies and biovores you can spawn up to 24 spore mines a turn, which all have a 5++.
The list also has a whole lotta str5 shooting at AP-1. 28 deathspitters and 4 stranglers comes out to over 100 shots on average with a whole lotta +1 to hit if you need it.
Not a huge amount of melee pressence, relying on only the warriors and the hive tyrant, but with so many spore mines on the table and the harpies and hive tyrant flying around you opponents wont have much board control.
So between the sporocysts and harpies and biovores you can spawn up to 24 spore mines a turn, which all have a 5++.
The list also has a whole lotta str5 shooting at AP-1. 28 deathspitters and 4 stranglers comes out to over 100 shots on average with a whole lotta +1 to hit if you need it.
Not a huge amount of melee pressence, relying on only the warriors and the hive tyrant, but with so many spore mines on the table and the harpies and hive tyrant flying around you opponents wont have much board control.
Now that’s some MW Shenanigans!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Looks like a lot of the rules that monsters should have by default.
Agreed! Either way I’m very happy at what we’re being given. Hopefully this will make Nidzilla competitive.
So between the sporocysts and harpies and biovores you can spawn up to 24 spore mines a turn, which all have a 5++.
The list also has a whole lotta str5 shooting at AP-1. 28 deathspitters and 4 stranglers comes out to over 100 shots on average with a whole lotta +1 to hit if you need it.
Not a huge amount of melee pressence, relying on only the warriors and the hive tyrant, but with so many spore mines on the table and the harpies and hive tyrant flying around you opponents wont have much board control.
I like weird lists! I only believe that the sporocyst cannot get detachment rules because they're fortifications, right?
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (1)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (2)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (3)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (4)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (5)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (6)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (7)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (8)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (9)
Transport: Tyrannocyte with deathspitters (10)
I am trying Very hard to put more than two Dakafexen in a list. Monster Mash is weak vs swarmy infantry, so the Daka is a good upgrade. I want to add two or three Scything Carnifexen to fill in the rest and flood the center with big bad bugs...Lol.
I have been out of the loop since early 9th edition on nids. I git enough GSC to field a pure army. And I got SW up and painted.
However the dakkafex is one of our best tools VS swarms. The downside is it dies easily. But that is where 5++ and - 1 damage comes it.
The flyrant is also a good anti infnatery weapon. But I see people give him a weapon instead of using him as a shooting platform these days.
I used to field two large units of warriors. 9 man strong. They where not good, but they where fun. With this new stratagem we can have them shoot on bs3+ inate. If they synaptic link themselves (or a prime is near) they can hit on 2+! Neat. 5++ helps keep them alive.
The new formation can stil do adaption, right? Like make them ignore ap 1 and 2? That might be putting the eggs in the wrong basket though. I am sure murderus sieze is better?
isn't one of the best things about the new monster list rules that you actually can use the leviathan stratagem (Hive mind imperative) to make a MC objective secured, in combination with counting as an amount of models compared to the (remaining) wounds? A flying hive tyrant could count as 12 models with objective secured after flying within range of the backfield objective. That is a really powerful combo.
isn't one of the best things about the new monster list rules that you actually can use the leviathan stratagem (Hive mind imperative) to make a MC objective secured, in combination with counting as an amount of models compared to the (remaining) wounds? A flying hive tyrant could count as 12 models with objective secured after flying within range of the backfield objective. That is a really powerful combo.
Is the Hierophant's footprint large enough that in some mission types it could actually stand in range of more than one objective? Because it'd be pretty funny to count as having 34 obsec models on 2 different objectives.
isn't one of the best things about the new monster list rules that you actually can use the leviathan stratagem (Hive mind imperative) to make a MC objective secured, in combination with counting as an amount of models compared to the (remaining) wounds? A flying hive tyrant could count as 12 models with objective secured after flying within range of the backfield objective. That is a really powerful combo.
Is the Hierophant's footprint large enough that in some mission types it could actually stand in range of more than one objective? Because it'd be pretty funny to count as having 34 obsec models on 2 different objectives.
You can only claim one objective at a time. You get to choose which one, so having a claw on two is not nothing, as you’d get to pick one you are going to dominate with all those wounds.
isn't one of the best things about the new monster list rules that you actually can use the leviathan stratagem (Hive mind imperative) to make a MC objective secured, in combination with counting as an amount of models compared to the (remaining) wounds? A flying hive tyrant could count as 12 models with objective secured after flying within range of the backfield objective. That is a really powerful combo.
Is the Hierophant's footprint large enough that in some mission types it could actually stand in range of more than one objective? Because it'd be pretty funny to count as having 34 obsec models on 2 different objectives.
You can only claim one objective at a time. You get to choose which one, so having a claw on two is not nothing, as you’d get to pick one you are going to dominate with all those wounds.
A model can only claim 1 objective at a time but models in a unit can count towards different objectives
isn't one of the best things about the new monster list rules that you actually can use the leviathan stratagem (Hive mind imperative) to make a MC objective secured, in combination with counting as an amount of models compared to the (remaining) wounds? A flying hive tyrant could count as 12 models with objective secured after flying within range of the backfield objective. That is a really powerful combo.
Is the Hierophant's footprint large enough that in some mission types it could actually stand in range of more than one objective? Because it'd be pretty funny to count as having 34 obsec models on 2 different objectives.
You can only claim one objective at a time. You get to choose which one, so having a claw on two is not nothing, as you’d get to pick one you are going to dominate with all those wounds.
A model can only claim 1 objective at a time but models in a unit can count towards different objectives
Very true. So a giant bug can only claim one, but a swarm of gribbles can claim as many objectives as you can smear them across. Although only the bugs in range of each will count for that one.
Fun overview of new rules...he makes some points about Mawlocks, and Crones....need to think on that. I have been thinking about Mawlock, but had Not thought about our "not air craft" flyers. it can contest with a cp, with 30" of move!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right now I am thinking Warior Broods of x3 with a Strangle, not sure about anything else, and one x5 Brood with Boneswords to help contest and push soft units off objectives
So Troops is:
Warriors x3 Strangle, Synaptic Link
Warriors x 3 Strangle, Link
Warriors x5 Bone swords maybe shooty for the "shoot in Hth" strat.
Then the Big Bugs I am leaning towards a Beat Stick Tyrant, and Swarmlord
Hiveguard x 6 Impalers
Then what else? I own a Tyrannocyte, and a Venothrope,....so I really want them in the army, add a Mawlock or two and I may be out of points...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I want Dakkafexen!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do not own any FW...and I really wish I had a Scythed Hierodule.
With slightly smaller boards and terrain being more of a road block, taking a lot of big base models seems like a hinderance with lots of terrain that the Monsters can't fit through or around easily. Do I need some dakka in the list or can a melee build work in matched play scenarios? (my friends like to stick to those)
The idea being that the Nuerothrope and the Carnifex entourage (with Old One Eye leading them) takes 1/2 the deployment space on either left/right side, Hive Tyrant and Dimachaeron take middle (first drops to help see where opponent is putting things) Warriors and Harpy take other side of deployment (depending on objectives/ terrain), and then the Carnifex blob goes down last. Warriors run to objectives, while Carnifex's and Tyrant/Dima combo should absorb enemy firepower.
Some take aways from reading this thread and checking out the new rules / interactions...
- Spore mine abuse brings me much joy. May even be useful!
- Sentient Hive Blades + Murderous Size. Will rinse through anything that isn't Morty or a deathguard MBT.
- Dual VC Carnifexes any good? Can pair with bonded bioweapon but lone models.
- Scythed Hierodule seems excellent now, with excellent anti-infantry shooting.
- The Dimachaeron seems good - is the move-through-terrain worth the point premium?
- Struggling to find a good source of horde clearing potential? No "sweep" attacks to buff up the number of attacks on our heavy hitters. Any ideas?
Everybody is talking about individual units but not a lot about synergy and tactics. It is all about the objectives and not (only) about killing.
What kind of list can take on ad mech (lascannon chickens), Drukhari raiders or Talos army, Ork "right in your face first turn" army, thousand sons mortal wound spam, grey knight dreadknight army and (future) Tau shooting?
Everybody is talking about individual units but not a lot about synergy and tactics. It is all about the objectives and not (only) about killing.
What kind of list can take on ad mech (lascannon chickens), Drukhari raiders or Talos army, Ork "right in your face first turn" army, thousand sons mortal wound spam, grey knight dreadknight army and (future) Tau shooting?
THat is what we are talking about...just in a circular way. Nids are winning top tables by playing the mission, and maxing secondaries. So a full understanding of what has been added, and what has been taken away is needed. Nidzilla needs help for the secondaries.
You can flood the center with Carnifexen, and use your Beatstick Tyrant to pick off backfield units. But getting on all fronts is an "issue" Mawlock looks like a solution, also our "never use" flyers, might be useful
Test games must be fought to find the perfect mix, but just having Nidzilla as an option is very nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is the Third secondary that is not easy. Warriors can raise banners, maybe look at Psychic seconadies. Interrogation might work as Nids have Plenty of Psychers...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for Tourny play Nidzilla has an advantage as it is faster to play, and less stressfull to run. Over a couple of days, that pays dividends.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kill leaders might be a thing...using Beatstick Tyrant, and Mawlocks, and Lictors? Scent trail might be a way to bring up a Trygon with some boosts and delete a unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lictor and x3 Brood of Warriors might get some secondaries, and steal Oblectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: While we stand makes spending cp on regen make some sense....
I really like a Beatstick Winged Tyrant, fast, Synapse, and casts. 10/10 would devour again. Hive Guard are still the best of the best...but screens are an issue.
pinecone77 wrote:
THat is what we are talking about...just in a circular way. Nids are winning top tables by playing the mission, and maxing secondaries. So a full understanding of what has been added, and what has been taken away is needed. Nidzilla needs help for the secondaries.
You can flood the center with Carnifexen, and use your Beatstick Tyrant to pick off backfield units. But getting on all fronts is an "issue" Mawlock looks like a solution, also our "never use" flyers, might be useful
Test games must be fought to find the perfect mix, but just having Nidzilla as an option is very nice.
Not a lot of winning for the Tyranids apart from shooty Hive guard list. These new monster-list rules will make some waves but will also increase the amount of anti-tank/mc shooting. I don't believe that a bunch of carnifexes can win even when they're are a bit tougher now.
Razerous wrote:Wings on a hive tyrant? I'm guessing we have tougher faster units with the heirodule & Dima.
Hive tyrant flies 16 inch and got 4++ inv. save. So it depends...
Razerous wrote:The swarmlord does look really fun. Can you give it biomorphic carapace?
No. "Named characters such as the Swarmlord, Old One Eye, Deathleaper and the Red Terror cannot be given any of the following Bio-artefacts"
Razerous wrote:Hive Guard are still an excellent pick, right?
Yep, indirect heavy shooting is very good but you also need to have the tools to get the objectives.
What's better for mobility; Harpy, Mawloc or other?
Mobility? Harpy can be made Obj secured (leviathan stratagem) and steal objectives but can also be shot down. Mawloc can actually deepstrike within 1 inch and steal objectives right away and count as 12 models (wounds) but cannot be made obj secured in that same turn (command phase). After that the mawloc is just a distraction but now with 5++ and -1 damage harder to remove from the objective.
The mawlocs are certainly good fun, however (and this is the same problem with teleporting Skitari infantry), the objective-secured strategem is done in the command phase. It'll work for the harpy but not the mawloc (if the Mawloc deep strikes mobility wise).
It'll also work for anything catapulted by the swarmlord.
pinecone77 wrote: I really like a Beatstick Winged Tyrant, fast, Synapse, and casts. 10/10 would devour again. Hive Guard are still the best of the best...but screens are an issue.
How do you kit out that hive tyrant? I was thinking leviathan sabers that ignore invinerable saves. Make him murderus sieze and go to town.
But the more I thought about it the less sure I was. Murderus sieze feels like overkill. There is a new warlordtrait that let's him get 1d3 more attacks. Also, the relic is better used for having easier psykicks.
I am working on a list with neuronthrope, flying hive tyrant and Swarmlord. Witch one gets what powers, now that we have more trees to chose from?
Also, is the flying hive tyrant so special. A flying crone or harpy can make reliable first turn charges. As can anything thrown by the Swarmlord. Am I just daring the opponent to use counter offensive.
The Invl ignoring sabres - AP-3 with 4D (or 3D vs most toughies) means that a 3+ save becomes a 6+, or a 2+ into a 5+... So against certain profiles the investment of a relic and warlord trait isn't much more helpful but against some its pretty fantastic. However could you get better results via other routes... Tricky?
For the wings - hold off on those 30pts and see where you get to. The board is a lot smaller than when we first saw the "new" Hive Tyrantd with wings.
I recently aquiered 2 scything hierophant. Between them and the Swarmlord I feel like I got melee covered.
I also aquiered 6 new warriors. (I have 18 from before.) I wanted to do 3x2 scything tallons and the +1 bs. But is that really worth 66 points? I am growing unsure and loosing confidence.
I am thinking Lictor trail a reserved x3 Brood of Warriors (Obj secured) Then you Mawlock if you need extra bodies to count for control? My Beatstick Tyrant is just Scythes and wings For Psy I plan on the add D3 attacks, and the spookems one (-3 Ld, -1 run roll etc) Just to see if being spooky can work. Don't forget to burn CP so you can roll D-Wounds fishing for a number based on S vs T, and gain up to 6MW when you charge.
I believe that will let me hunt Chars if my foe makes a mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Warriors with Synapse Link are super useful. Use one to babysit Hive Guard and +1 to hit them. It also lets you place Synapse all over the place, which is important for some Strats.
If you play with lots of Warriors I think a x6 to x9 can be a good thing to hold the center.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Consider a x9 Brood of Warriors, with the 4+ Invuln Psy power up, then you can use the Chiten Strat if the attacks are high S.
I seem to remember that its a "If any objective secured models meet any other number of objective secured models (enemy), then it simply become whoever has the most models (regardless of objective secured)"
I mean, I have been running a brood of 9 warriors with the adaptive to give them +2 to armor in cover then run jormungunder so they are always in cover since the psycic awakening has been out. Between them just with 3w and the strat to reduce dmg by 1 to them, and a tyrand lord for +1 to bs to them that blob has never disappointed me. So yeah 1 Warrior blob is awaome.
jormy warriors are great, but remember when your using crusher swarm you loose your regular hive fleet adaptation.
Basically crusher swarm is gonna be only leviathan atm to gain access to the full reroll WL trait, the -1 to wound relic, and the strat to turn a monster obsec. Those 3 things are too good to use any other hive fleet for the crusher swarm.
Azuza001 wrote:I mean, I have been running a brood of 9 warriors with the adaptive to give them +2 to armor in cover then run jormungunder so they are always in cover since the psycic awakening has been out. Between them just with 3w and the strat to reduce dmg by 1 to them, and a tyrand lord for +1 to bs to them that blob has never disappointed me. So yeah 1 Warrior blob is awaome.
@Azura001: Big warrior units are tough but it is a big investment and the damage output is very low. The opponent simply focus on the other tyranid units and start killing the warriors at round 3+.
I had a lot of discussion with Nilai in the past about warriors and even his confidence is crumbling now:
Niiai wrote:Melee tyrants needs wings. IMHO.
I also aquiered 6 new warriors. (I have 18 from before.) I wanted to do 3x2 scything tallons and the +1 bs. But is that really worth 66 points? I am growing unsure and loosing confidence.
Even now when there are more tyranid warrior upgrades, the don't cut it in my opinion. I would field them as cheap troops in my monster list so 3 of them with talons and nothing more (apart from synaptic link upgrade if needed). Keep them in the backfield on the objectives and let the big beasties go to town.
You are such a rude person I can not belive it. I have 18 warriors and just got 6 more. How is that loosing confidence in them?
Warriors are an entirely different beast in a crusher stampede list. They loose their usual adaption (beeing on cover, or leviathan, both witch are excelent) but they gain 5++, witch does only kick in VS high ap weapons. They also gain a cp upgrade that is insane, for 1 CP they get permanent ws2+ bs3+, and this stacks with +1 to hit from a warrior synaptic lure or a prime. A blob that hits on 2+ (and can shoot again after your hive guards are dead) yes please.
They are also the only legal troop choise. And the cheapest unit you can field. But you need to match each one with a monster. And they share that tax with other potensial units: Lictors, hive guard, tyrant guard(?), neuronthropes, zonathropes and prime. With the cheapest good monster beeing the dakka carnifex at 120 points you are building and entirely different list then what we usual talk about. There is no MSU here. Troops that where our biggest strength is gone, and we might want more then 3 heavy support slots.
In addition to this you need to juggle synaptic upgrades. Warriors and malrceptor beeing the winners.
The biggest difference to warrior comparison is that all your other monsters just got hit with steroids. - 1 damage is huge for all. 5++ is huge for some.
Comparing regular warriors to crushing stampede warriors is a mistake. They are such entirely different beasts.
Warriors are an entirely different beast in a crusher stampede list. They loose their usual adaption (beeing on cover, or leviathan, both witch are excelent) but they gain 5++, witch does only kick in VS high ap weapons. They also gain a cp upgrade that is insane, for 1 CP they get permanent ws2+ bs3+, and this stacks with +1 to hit from a warrior synaptic lure or a prime. A blob that hits on 2+ (and can shoot again after your hive guards are dead) yes please.
They are also the only legal troop choise. And the cheapest unit you can field. But you need to match each one with a monster. And they share that tax with other potensial units: Lictors, hive guard, tyrant guard(?), neuronthropes, zonathropes and prime. With the cheapest good monster beeing the dakka carnifex at 120 points you are building and entirely different list then what we usual talk about. There is no MSU here. Troops that where our biggest strength is gone, and we might want more then 3 heavy support slots.
In addition to this you need to juggle synaptic upgrades. Warriors and malrceptor beeing the winners.
The biggest difference to warrior comparison is that all your other monsters just got hit with steroids. - 1 damage is huge for all. 5++ is huge for some.
Comparing regular warriors to crushing stampede warriors is a mistake. They are such entirely different beasts.
You don't have to list the rules... we know the rules and that doesn't say anything about if the work or not. You can increase the WS or BS but it is still not a great unit. With deatspitters and 2+ to hit they're a decent anti-infantry unit but even that is debatable if you compare them with other units. Anything you invest in them (inv save, feel no pain, reroll to hit, extra movement et cetera) is better used on other units. Apart from the warrior prime investment a full warrior unit with deathspitters and boneswords + synaptic link is about 240 points. Thats just as much as a scythed hierodule.
Give me a full armylist and make the argument how the can work with all the other tyranid units you field. Maybe it works for you in your casual vacuum bubble but I don't see how the work in any tournament setting apart from fielding cheap 3 warrior talon units with 5++ inv save in the stampede lists with possibly the synaptic link upgrade.
I seem to remember that its a "If any objective secured models meet any other number of objective secured models (enemy), then it simply become whoever has the most models (regardless of objective secured)"
Clumsy wording but does that make sense?
I would have to look it up, but I Think that is it. That is why my plan is to use Mawloc to combo with MSU Warriors. But I do plan to look it up before I start playing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote: jormy warriors are great, but remember when your using crusher swarm you loose your regular hive fleet adaptation.
Basically crusher swarm is gonna be only leviathan atm to gain access to the full reroll WL trait, the -1 to wound relic, and the strat to turn a monster obsec. Those 3 things are too good to use any other hive fleet for the crusher swarm.
Yeah, If Crusher makes it into the Codex, I seriously hope it becomes useful with all Hive Fleets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other goofy trick I heard was taking a Tervigon, and reserving a big chunk of points and spitting out Termagants that way. Is this the cheese we are looking for?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also is not there a strat? or does that rebuild a unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For maximum hilarity I was thinking Tyrannocytes with x3 Warriors inside That is a big wound beasty and a Obj secured to drop off to do missions etc. "I charge, with the Tyrannocyte, and I will use Break through...take "X" MW...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Warrior Synapse link means Tyrannocytes hit on 4's?
Yeah, tyrannocytes are surprisingly less rubbish than before.
I completely blindsided an opponent the other day by using a t-cyte with venom cannon, turned into a synapse creature with an adaptation, and filled with shock cannon hive guard.
Expensive, and really only any use against big vehicles or knights, but also fun
I did like how having the T-cyte being synapse and shadow in the warp allowed me to drop my hive guard in wherever i anted and not have to put up with the negatives to hit from instinctive behaviour. It then spent the battle floating around taking potshots and increasing my coverage of synapse for giving units +1 to hit from my warriors ( ps, if the t-cyte survives the turn it drops in, using the warrior link on it the get 5 venom cannon hitting on 4's is surprisingly effective.)
Edit: When I explored the Assassin Tyrant, I was drawn to the invulerable-ignoring bone swords. After reviewing the (admittedly costly in CP) potential of a Hive Tyrant buffed by 2D3 attacks, I realised it can take down mortarion. Which is insane.
By ignoring the invunerable save, stacking murderous size along with the +D3 WLT & psychic power and spending a fair few CP on Thunderous impact, Voracious appetite, War on all fronts (a bit tricky, granted), Relentless Flurry and.... implant attack to finish it off? Thunderous impact with the +1 damage (big) and +1 to-wound (huge!) really help.
Assuming average of +4 attacks on 2D3 and no defensive strategems from Morty. But still.. that's insane.
I'm in love. Now I need to work out how to not fail on secondaries.
I been out of the loop. So lictors not so good anymore? Was there an objective change or something? Also what’s the new monster rules in white dwarf any good?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I been out of the loop. So lictors not so good anymore? Was there an objective change or something? Also what’s the new monster rules in white dwarf any good?
The 2022 mission pack is changing the Retrieve Data secondary objective so that the unit performing the action must roll equal to or under the number of models in the unit to score points. The poor Lictor can only score points on a roll of 1. Admittedly, there are other action objectives that Lictors can perform, and they still have their Pheromone Trail for bringing in reserves.
The Crusher Stampede has some interesting rules. It makes monsters tougher (5++ and -1 damage) and lets them count their wounds for the purposes of objectives, but it severely restricts infantry options to only mid-sized 'nids (warriors, 'thropes, 'vores, guards) and requires one monster for each infantry unit.
Razerous wrote: When I explored the Assassin Tyrant, I was drawn to the invulerable-ignoring bone swords. After reviewing the (admittedly costly in CP) potential of a Hive Tyrant buffed by 2D3 attacks, I realised it can take down mortarion. Which is insane.
By ignoring the invunerable save, stacking murderous size along with the +D3 WLT & psychic power and spending a fair few CP on Thunderous impact, Voracious appetite, War on all fronts (a bit tricky, granted), Relentless Flurry and.... implant attack to finish it off? Thunderous impact with the +1 damage (big) and +1 to-wound (huge!) really help.
Assuming average of +4 attacks on 2D3 and no defensive strategems from Morty. But still.. that's insane.
I'm in love. Now I need to work out how to not fail on secondaries.
Thats a big investment for a unit that can be shot down with lascannons. I would rather make it tougher so that he may actually get in close combat. -1 to wound (carapace) might be better. regular monsterous boneswords with the extra d3 attacks and other stratagem upgrades already kills a lot of units. So many good stratagems that I rather use the neural lobe relic so that i get more CP!
Nitro Zeus wrote:Hmm thx. I found the stampede rules, not sold at all. Cool addition to the game for people who wanna play like that though.
I think the 'count as a model for every wound regarding objectives' is pretty good in combination with the leviathan stratagem to make one unit objective secured. This really helps with primary objectives. I think that is going to make some waves but it is not going to win tournaments, i guess. Lot's of lascannons and melta weapons don't care about -1 damage and a 5++ save.
How long have you been out of the loop zeuz? I am returning after a long SW hiatus. I really like the fun look of the monster mash list. - 1 damage is great.
2022 mission packs will bring other changes as well. In short it looks like the mission spesific mission will be rolled into primary. And the points for holding points on primary will be reduced. So you are now attempting 4 things. Hold points, mission spesific mission and 3 secondaries.
I am shure tyranids will be fine. It will affect more armies then ours. A lot of our bad troops got a boost from octarion. Making gargoyles objective secure should make them good at doing missions for instance.
Razous my eye has also been draw to the assassin hive tyrant. One of my friends play Mortarion spesifically. I thought Mortarion had some rules that denyed re-rolls, a psykick power to give - 1 to hit, and something that ignored auras? But I might be mixing them up.
One youtube channel suggested void crown and psykick secondaries on a neuronthrope. I think they went with psykick interrogation. It might not be bad.
Regarding psychic secondaries, specifically psychic interrogation.. it requires your opponent to do things i.e. move or not move a character to within ~30" of a psyker. So tricky? But no LoS is nice.
Pierce the veil requires you to be in the middle and our big psychic bugs want to be using the amazing nidz powers and we don't have many cheap psychic bugs. Big shrug?
There is no auras to speak off & I'm fairly sure within that lists of strategems is a +1 to hit which counters the -1 to hit. Hence why the war on all fronts being useful just for the RR 1's to hit.
Edit: On the subject of Morty... Gloaming Bloat is a truly horrdenous warlord trait. No re-rolls allowed (to hit or to wound). All praise Morty
Nitro Zeus wrote:Hmm thx. I found the stampede rules, not sold at all. Cool addition to the game for people who wanna play like that though.
I think the 'count as a model for every wound regarding objectives' is pretty good in combination with the leviathan stratagem to make one unit objective secured. This really helps with primary objectives. I think that is going to make some waves but it is not going to win tournaments, i guess. Lot's of lascannons and melta weapons don't care about -1 damage and a 5++ save.
it adds so much!! but i just dont think its better than the advantages that aren't factored in as easily numerically.... Kraken buffs and termagant troops are huge and are literally the only reason I win every game lol. As a Nidzilla player, I don't hate it at all I'm just not about to swap playstyle for it
Its not about the new lazcannons, its about how all the D2 and D3 weapons get affected by the -1d. There are alot of D2 and D3 in the game which get absolutely wrecked by -1d.
It also does help against meltas and lazcannons.
Lazcannons now have a 33% chance to do 1 damage and a 0% chance to do 6.
Super laz go down to D3+2 and meltas in half range are only D6+1.
Combined with the -1 to be wounded relic, our hive tyrants are alot more survivable.
Poor custodes used to poon nids that didnt spam hive guard and zoans, now a custodes player is sweating hard against the crusher stampede.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its not about the new lazcannons, its about how all the D2 and D3 weapons get affected by the -1d. There are alot of D2 and D3 in the game which get absolutely wrecked by -1d.
It also does help against meltas and lazcannons.
Lazcannons now have a 33% chance to do 1 damage and a 0% chance to do 6.
Super laz go down to D3+2 and meltas in half range are only D6+1.
Combined with the -1 to be wounded relic, our hive tyrants are alot more survivable.
Poor custodes used to poon nids that didnt spam hive guard and zoans, now a custodes player is sweating hard against the crusher stampede.
that's all true but you still got to do damage yourself or keep claiming objectives up to round 5, or else the enemy simply needs 4 turns to take them out instead of 3. Against ad mech lascannon chickens, ork mek gunz, dark lances/blasters, melta rifles, plasma redemptors et cetera, the damage output is all over the place. I once lost 3 armingers turn one because the ork player got 20+ shots with his 5 mek guns and also a high damage result. A simple 5+ inv could prevent 5 wounds so if you're lucky with your rolls that could also prevent a lot of damage. It is very swingy (is that an English word??).
I also play thousand sons and I would fear the 10 terminators with full shooting power and the +1 to wound stratagem. Storm bolters with 1 damage and -2 ap don't care about the -1 damage and 5++, apart from all the extra mortal wounds..
But back to tactics...
I'am going to try the following list because i would like to see how long this tough bubble can last:
EL: 5 tyrant guard
EL: 6 tyrant guard (procency of the hive stratagem- ignore -1 and -2ap upgrade)
EL: Maleceptor
HY: Scythed hierodule
I'am going to move them as one big bubble towards mid-field and tough them up with -1 strenght against shooting (maleceptor), 1- to hit, -1 damage for MC with stampede and other upgrades (Catalyst, 4++, cover from the broodlord synaptic link upgrade).
I should be able to take two rounds of shooting before everything attacks!
This list is amazing btw, tabled another tyranid players crusher swarm on turn 4. It can start slow and needs to be careful with deployment against strong shooting armies, but will utterly out-attrition other elite builds and really mess up the movement of infantry heavy stuff. Light transports go down with no problem so its not worried about harlies and deldar either.
This list is amazing btw, tabled another tyranid players crusher swarm on turn 4. It can start slow and needs to be careful with deployment against strong shooting armies, but will utterly out-attrition other elite builds and really mess up the movement of infantry heavy stuff. Light transports go down with no problem so its not worried about harlies and deldar either.
Very situational...
Sporocyst don't get detachment rules, right (fortifications)? So no -1 damage and 5++ for them...
You need first turn and not face a lot of enemy units that can fly because otherwise it gets tough. If an Ork player gets first turn and moves agressive then the own the mid field and you're done.
Enemy players need to sacrifice units against spore mines so that the detonate all against that specific unit or model. A smart player knows this but other players might be out of their comfort zone and don't know how to deal with this. Nothing more fun then blocking a big knight from moving forward with 3 spore mines. You shall not pass!!!!
They do get detachment rules, since they are monsters. Your thinking about Auxillary Super Heavy detachments (which do not benefit from hive fleet rules).
You dont have to get first turn, but it helps alot. The sporocysts get scout deploy, but can be placed inside or behind terrain so as to not be shootable turn one (just note they most likely wont get to shoot their venom cannons if they cant get shot either).
All the biovore spores are single man units so you cant really bait them or shoot them effectively. The 3 man units from the sporocysts will all pop at the same time, but the mortals they deal are not limited to only the models within 3" (the rule says when the spore explodes it deals damage ot the nearest enemy unit, not the one that triggered the explosion).
Eihnlazer wrote: They do get detachment rules, since they are monsters. Your thinking about Auxillary Super Heavy detachments (which do not benefit from hive fleet rules).
Rulebook:
DETACHMENT ABILITIES
Every Codex lists a set of abilities that units in a Detachment gain if every unit in that Detachment is from a specified Faction. Units in Auxiliary Support Detachments, Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments and Fortification Network Detachments never gain any Detachment abilities, even if every unit in that Detachment is from the Faction specified.
All the biovore spores are single man units so you cant really bait them or shoot them effectively. The 3 man units from the sporocysts will all pop at the same time, but the mortals they deal are not limited to only the models within 3" (the rule says when the spore explodes it deals damage ot the nearest enemy unit, not the one that triggered the explosion).
Oh yeah, now I remember the whole spore mine exploding discussions from the past. I don't agree with this but no reason to get into this again. It really needed a faq.
Tyran wrote: The 5++ and the -1 to damage are not detachment rules, they are army wide rules. Sporocysts benefit from them.
Ah I see, didn't realise that.
That said, I know I'm still really skeptical of this whole thing. Sporocysts are just... man. They are so bad. It's not like the Harpy where you have a gakload of utility in the rules, they just needed a little more durability. Sporocysts get the durability with CS but they still don't have the damage or anything really. And the cringe-y part of their rules is that there are actually not that many tables where you can deploy multiple sporocysts in relevant places, with the requisite amount of terrain that is needed.
I love that I finally have a chance to bring a carnifex heavy list that doesn't suck and then immediately after GW preview a weapon that can one shot anything in my list. I guess that is what I get for not buying the giant FW models.
Niiai wrote: Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?
Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.
I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.
Niiai wrote: Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?
Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.
I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.
Yeah, okay, good point. I think the damage is a little bit less than Genestealers, but we still have those nice Leviathan strats to get extra hits on 6s, and Genestealers often overkilled anyways. Let's both try and see what happens!
ETA: Would you still bring a big brick of warriors in such a situation? That seems cool, but all of a sudden you're putting a lot of points into midsized units and missing out on a lot of the Crusher Stampede goodness. I'm inclined to keep running 3 x3 for the Bioweapon Bond, but I'm not as bullish on the Warriors as you to begin with. Thinking about it, 1 unit of 9 Raveners is probably sufficient, but there would be reason to run 2 units of 9 for the same reason one runs 2 units of 20 Genestealers.
Lord Blackscale wrote: I love that I finally have a chance to bring a carnifex heavy list that doesn't suck and then immediately after GW preview a weapon that can one shot anything in my list. I guess that is what I get for not buying the giant FW models.
If one super gun is enough to put you off the band wagon....you need more kool aid! I am looking at Tyrant guard for swarmy...just like in the olden days! Railgun, Guard dies, Railgun, Guard dies, Railgun, Guard dies. My turn! Slingshot! Tau death cries...Nom, nom!
Basicly I'm looking at everything to see what can work. Ravagers just might be a good answaer as well.
Niiai wrote: Crusher stampede list. How do you like ravaners as poor man's Genestealer?
Interesting question. The lack of innate advance and charge on them seems like an issue. I should probably try it, I have 18 of them.
I don't know if the speed is an issue. They are base speed 12. Genestealer is bade 8, but can run and charge to an averadge of 11,5. More if you are kraken, usually 13,5 with stratagem. What is important though is that both units can be rocket slung with the swarmlord. I quite like it. They certanly are better then before. And you sometimes want genestealers even though you can not legaly take them.
One cool thing is you can use a cp to make a Ravager Synapse. That 'solves" many of the problems with Ravagers (being out of Synapse). Having two Broods makes even more sense after using a CP for that purpose.
In the new Codex, if they would just make the Red terror Synapse, she would likely be worth taking.
One cool thing is you can use a cp to make a Ravager Synapse. That 'solves" many of the problems with Ravagers (being out of Synapse). Having two Broods makes even more sense after using a CP for that purpose.
The adaptive physiology to give a creature the Synapse rules only applies to Monsters. So wouldn't work on Raveners, as they're infantry.
You can just run up another fast synapse unit with them though. Flyrants are pretty quick.
16 genestealers are 208 points. 64 attacks on
the charge. Mind you once they drop under 10 you loose 25% of them. (All 16 are on 48 attacks then.) you might not get all 16 into base contact.
9 ravaners are 198 points. 36 attacks. Ouch, that is a big hit.
But the 16 genestealers are 16 wounds, the ravaners are 27 wounds, 11 wounds more.
Genestealers have the toxin sack. You can also do budget ravaners with double scything at 180 points for 45 attacks, but you have no AP.
To summarise - used to play Nids all the way back in 4th, 5th and 6th edition. Then sold them on for a number of reasons - bills and gaunts and genestealers are just...no fun to paint. At all.
Then I slipped out of 40k altogether with 9th ed's release as I grew tired of the first 6 codexes being over 75% power armour or which all but 1 were Imperial. Ew. That and a lack of Crusade support.
But something has changed. Commission funds...and a WD army of renown have pulled me back in.
Crusher Stampede? Invuln saves across the board and -1 damage on monsters? Don't mind if I do!
So I come to you, to figure out the best generalist options.
So I am trying to figure the best layout. Obviously a limited number of models means things may have to pull double duty so, builds need to be flexible.
Tyrants - One planned for foot, one planned as a Flyrant. Brain is thinking HVC and Scytals for the Foot Tyrant - not sure for Flyrant. Stranglethorn or Deathspitters and Rending Claws I'm thinking.
Warriors - My gut is telling me to stick to Deathspitters and Bonesword/Lash Whip. Venom cannons or Barbed Stranglers though?
Tyrannofexes - 1 with Acid Spray as an obvious go to, 1 with Rupture Cannon for no reason other than I actually like the Rupture Cannon.
Carnifexes - Tempted to make them a brood of Screamer Killers for the superior bio-plasma but the generic options of the 'normal' Carnifex are tempting as well - as I'm sure slapping Tusks on makes a meaner assault critter but my brain also plays with the idea of a Gunfex build with a Monstrous Acid Maw to plug the melee gap...
So just wanting general advice for generalism's sake.
The plan going forward with the list does involve adding another Carnifex and Old One Eye, as well as some Venomthrope broods... and possibly fleshing out the Warrior Broods from 3 to 6.
And eventually - FW plans may consider Dimachaerons and Hierodules.
And yes, I know the army build is basically going to be something like Battalion plus Spearhead detachment...because most our Monsters are Heavy Support choices.
Second, monster stanpede is probably worse off then regular tyranids (who are quite good after the Octarius release.) However, it is probably not bad, and it is very fun.
To have a good list you need a number of different units doing a lot of jobs. Long range shooting is one of them, and tyranids only have a handfull of dedicated anti tank shooters.
The list include hiveguard, exochrine, tyranofex and barbed hierodule. Zoanthropes have some targeting issues, but mortal wounds are great. Carnifex and hive tyrant cannons do not have the volume of fire to be reliable.
The tyranofex is by far the worst as he is worse VS anything not T8, where he is best. The flamer tyranofex is quite interesting, but he is not anti tank. I would advice you to make two rupture cannon cannon tyranofexes unless you are buying any more anti tank.
Build one Swarmlord. Build one flying hive tyrant with your choise of guns. Since he has 2 arm sockets, just proxy the last weapon from game to game as you see fit.
I am not gonne do a whole warrior debate here. But the crusher stampede is very unit light. Giving warriors double scything Tallon is probably the best. It is the cheapest. (Does not come in the kit.)
Lastly, sett up the carnifexes with the - 1 to hit them and enchanted sence, and the 24 dakka shots. Crusher stampede list can have a problem VS many models, and those fix that problem.
Niiai wrote: Putting speed aside as they are quite comparable.
16 genestealers are 208 points. 64 attacks on
the charge. Mind you once they drop under 10 you loose 25% of them. (All 16 are on 48 attacks then.) you might not get all 16 into base contact.
9 ravaners are 198 points. 36 attacks. Ouch, that is a big hit.
But the 16 genestealers are 16 wounds, the ravaners are 27 wounds, 11 wounds more.
Genestealers have the toxin sack. You can also do budget ravaners with double scything at 180 points for 45 attacks, but you have no AP.
To me genestealers are for killing something while Ravaners lack the raw output for that and would instead be to throw out and tie something down before it gets to the rest of your army
1 tallyman
1 unknown caster character
1 unknown flamer character
1 unknown grenade character (elite?)
10 poxwalkers
10 poxwalkers
1 fleshmawer blightdrone
2 small robots with melta and rocketlauncher
1 relic contemptor with rocket launcher and volkites
1 relic contemtor with rocket launcher and volkites
5 death guard super terminators
3 death guard super Terminators.
We rolled up mission 23, the smallest deploimentsone. (Small square) Hold 2, hold on 3. Some line of sight blocking on each side.
He won rolling for turn 1. Reposition on my warlord was rather useless, no place to reposition them.
His turn 1. He shot my tyranofex. My dimachaeron was bracketed. My hive crone was almost brackedet.
My turn 1. Warriors gave pluss to hit to exochrine, dimachaeron and hiveguards. Hiveguards got re-roll to hit.
Exocrine slimmer maggots. Only hits on 2 shots (double shoot.) Does not roll to wound.
Hive guards double shoot (stratagem) hits a lot, fail to wound a lot, saves a lot. 2 wounds go through.
My dimachaeron double moved with the Swarmlord. But could not charge anything good due to the brackedet movement. He charges 10 poxwalkers and kill 6 of them.
My hive crone charged a plagueburst crawler (tank). But the roll to wound stratagem in impact is based on remaining wounds. It does nothing. (He will hold up the plagueburst crawler (tank) for the rest of the game though.)
To summarize, all my shooting and melee whiffed.
His turn 2:
Kills my dimachaeron. Shoots my hive guards down to one 4 models. Brings the Exocrine quite low. Shoots my hive tyrant a lot. Deep strike death guard Terminators, manage the 9 inch charge.
My turn 2:
All shooting whiffed, even with the shoot twice on hiveguards. They deal 3 damage but not a lot.
Swarmlord charges the 3 death guard Terminators and kills them. Scything Hierodule charges the other death guard Terminators. He manage to get 5 wounds, he saves 4 of them. (Saves on 4++.)
His turn 3:
He shoots and kills stuff. Swarmlord explodes and take out the Exocrine. Death guard Terminators kill my scything Hierodule. I have left:
1 warrior
1 warrior
1 wounded hive tyrant
1 hive guard in melee with a flesh mawer
1 neuronthrope
1 hive crone (stil tying up the tank.)
I have killed:
one of the little robots with rockets and multi melta.
15 poxwalkers.
3 deathshroud Terminators.
I am way behind on points. I consede.
Post game evaluation:
- To little long range shooting. Failing to kill any of the ranged treats was just a major problem. When I hit the low end of the bell curve I am very far behind.
- Both the dimacaron and the hive crone would be good if I got turn 1. But when I did not get turn 1 that left me very far behind. That was 400 points wasted.
- The fact that the dimachaeron is T7 and not T8 is a major handicap compared to the scything Hierodule.
- Not getting a turn 1 charge because I was too brackedet sucked. (As opposed to say a unit, like genestealers.)
- The dakka hive tyrant was quite bad once he got stuck in melee. In 8th edition you could just fall back and shoot.
- Small deployment zones really hurt me.
- I should be spending my CP better. Starting at 9 was to little. Using transhuman stratagem for 2 CP was killer. I need to spend them smarter. Getting no result out of slicker maggot and shoot twice turn one was a big let down.
- The small number of quality attacks on the Scythed hierodule was really bad VS Death Guard Terminators. Wounding on 5 dice, him saving 4+ on 4 of them was just insane.
Looking for advice for better range weapons VS death guard on a general all comers list. Suggestions are welcome.
Niiai wrote: [spoiler]I tryed crusher stampede. 2000 VS Death Guard.
Looking for advice for better range weapons VS death guard on a general all comers list.............Suggestions are welcome.
It's not about better range weapons... you got to look at your armylist as a whole and the strategy you use to claim the objectives. What do you want to achieve at the end of turn 2 ...and 3....and 4? You cannot simply move forward and kill stuff and see where that get's you. With this armylist you simply give the opponent the oppertunity to kill stuff one by one and you just as well paint big bull's eyes on them. Having tough MC is not enough if you cannot do damage yourself, it just takes them a bit longer to kill them.
You want better shooting? Look for hive guard list that are purely focussed on getting the most out of indirect shooting. The rest is rather.. meh... I also like to have one devourer flying hive tyrant to remove cheap infantry but the tyrannofex, exocrine and hive crone are not really impressive units.
If it is Deathguard in particular that you are fighting, MW are your friend. Do you have Zoeys? I like using a Beatstick Tyrant, that would work very well next to your Dakatyrant. What models do you have available? A sixth Hive guard would be nice.
I'd suggest playing a couple more games before you switch up, as you sometimes just get a bad table. You might have more luck next time.
I do not have zoeys, but I am considering getting some. It is that, Malantrope or the venomtrope (should work well with crusher stampede.)
The sixt hiveguard and mawlock got upgraded to the tyranofex last minut.
The tyranofex and hive crone where very bad there. The plagueburst crawler can upgrade its mortar to become D3. It is very good at attacking hive guards. I am honestly reconsidering hive guards in that matchup, although I try not to tailor my lists.
With the wrong tools I did the wrong model for the wrong job. I need to find a good crusher stampede lists that works.
The D3 mortars are good for the exact same reason the hive guard are good.. they work great, ignore LOS etc etc.
However those crawlers, whilst swingy, should only kill 1.2 models per turn per tank. 3.5 shots, Hitting on 3's, wounding on 3s+ (78%), when they spend the CP for the flat 3 damage. Which can only be done once per turn for a single tank?
They excel in killing MEQ's but against T5 with 5++, perhaps in cover for a 2+ (so 5+ with AP-2). Give them Enhanced Resistance and you can now shrug off the majority of firepower from those tanks!
Yeah. That is true. They did not actually die to the mortars. It was the flesh mower blight drone that did them in turn 3. It came from the wrong angle for me to intercept, and I had to little of the right guns. It was a gak list.
They where behind Los blocking terrain, but not in cover. With how tasty they are they wouldbe prime targets for shooting with relic contemptor dreads, the side sponsors on the tanks and the small robots when/if they came close enough. It really was a gak game, fun though. And nice opponent. I am learning him the ropes, after two losses VS my SW he deserved winn.
But the shocking realization that the mortar can be D3 was, well, shocking.
Makes me 2ant to reconsider enchanted resistance warriors. One adaption and one CP, but they are hitting on 2's with shooting. Crusher stampede needs some large dice pools as well. Not just quality high dice that bellcurvewhifs to 4++ like I did to the Terminators. S5 Ap1 deathspitters seems awesome! Ignoring AP 1 and 2, potensial - 1 damage stratagem and 5++ seems like a great place to be. We don't really need dermich symbiosis in a crusher stampede list.
Also, with so many stratagems and so little CP, perhaps we do not need warzone octarion leviathan? I mean, Kronos psykick power is great. Behemot relic claw on flying hive tyrant, also great!
Leviathan is amazing, so far ahead of all the others in terms of strategem flexibility.
However even if it was just Hive Mind Imperative, it would be worth it. Making a crusher stampede BFB (big fast bug) objective secured at 12-18 models is insanely good. Can't stress that enough.
Is this from a theoretical standpoint or have you empiric evidence from a crushing stampede list beeing played?
Because that has some good stratagems in it. And one codex and three codex supplement puts a real strain on your CP. It is insane. A crusher stampede might want more then 3 heavy support so you do not start at 12 CP. Then you might want extra relic, warlord trait or strategic adaption, so you might start on 8 CP.
Shooting twice, +1 damage on big gun, fight again, fight on death (both versions), mortal wounds when charing (witch you probably will be spamming in a crusher stampede list.) All of that is A+ and costs CP.
Hive mind imperative is good. But so is say symbiostorm.
I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2. But that is not a guarantee. Many games are virtually over by turn 3. (Although if you have very balanced games this might help.) If I am not mistaken your are stil restricted to gaining max 1 CP per game erouns outside of stratagems and the one you gain at the start of your turn.
The go to artifact is resonance barb, usually. But you might be in the market for an adaptive neural lobe.
Niiai wrote: I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.
You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.
I've not yet played a crusher stampede list but my earlier Nids lists were similar.
What I have had lots of experience with is objective secured units & missions. Being able to bring an 8-12-18 model unit onto an objective is strong. Then either turning off objective secured or having it yourself, it really changes the game.
Ultimately you win games by playing the missions in 9th. Crusher Stampede monster will help, as will anything with obsec.
I'm pretty sure 1 obsec model + 10 more non-obsec models will capture an objective over 10 obsec models.
Niiai wrote: I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.
You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.
There is a cap on how much CP you can get in a round.
Niiai wrote: I am not so shure. Once you pay 1 CP for it the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.
You roll a d6 for each CP the opponent uses and get a CP on a 5+. This can happen in turn 1 so what do you mean? Most times you profit from extra CP's. I might reconsider if I needed to pick the lobe as the third relic and pay 2 CP for that.
There is a cap on how much CP you can get in a round.
Yes but that can happen at turn 1. You claim that the earliest you get it refunded is turn 2.
I have you blocked shogun. So your posts just turn up as compromised. But I thought maiby I am to harsh and checked the remark. And you clearny understand what I am saying, you are just looking to bicker.
Most importantly you do not adress the actual argument that you are paying 1 CP for the relic, and you might not get much out of it before the important turns are over. Especially on an army that eat so much CP as tyranids.
I rather think it will be a long time before I click on the read button on people I ignore. Apolegies to you others.
But we do have acid blood! (costs 
But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(
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