No real resilient scoring but whatever it's Nidzilla you need to weigh em down with big bugs. The plus side is this is gonna be extremely hard to push into, every big bug has an invul, and you can't really expect to use CC to push them off once they get stuck in, it's gonna take more than a Smash Captain or two to stop this sort of Nidzilla.
I think this is a pretty damn resilient list. Over 100 T7/T8 wounds with invuls isn't trivial for anything, and that's before the Malanthrope bubble and possibly the FNPs/Catalysts. It's also pretty mobile I think you would basically own the field with this.
I love Nidzilla, so I'd invest into this, BUT I feel like the codex is around the corner so who knows. This will be strong either way though I think.
I like it. But 6 forge world models sounds very exspensive to buy. Are there any nice kitbashes out there?
I do not know if our codex is around the corner. But the trend from SM and Necron is to streamline the internal balanse to make it more playable. And the SW have a lot of rules for flexibilaty and fluff. For instance a squad sergant can take a relic (double frost claws baby!) But SM and SW have a lot of stratagems where you can pay 1 CP to gain a relic/warlordtait etc. I can imagine we get more of that from any new codex. An extensions from BOB. Would be a sweet time. I would also asume a lot of our units would either shrink in point to the point where they become playable, or get new rules to make them playabe. I have theoreticla examples in my mind, but I shall not speculate any further.
After having played Nids through 8th, into GSC and now pure GSC in 9th I am so tierd of dying to Orks. So now I am playing SW. SM seems so powerfull I do not have to jump through hoops to surve. It should loosed up focusing so much on list building, and more on fun. But these FW rules seems very exiting! If I had more then the malanthrope forge world model I would like to play nids more. But after a hiatus I am sure I will be back. :-)
addnid wrote: Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter.
Like that means anything in 8th/9th, where anything can wound anything, and the most effective weapons are mid-strength mid-damage multi-shot weapons.
True in 8th. Not so true in 9th.
The latter designs are showing that GW is clearly empowering low shot count AT weapons (melta, railguns, gauss...) while leaving multi shot weapons in the same place. This is pushing those mid strenght high shot count weapons toward anti elite duty, while reserving the AT role to heavy calibers. You can even see that they nerfed the imperial fists trait to be in line with that.
What is missing in all this, is that it would have been a nice IF it was tied to an increase in durability of the tanks/monsters, so that they would become relatively more durable against anti elite weapons while still being vulnerable to AT weapons. Instead, they kept the old durability, so now monsters/tanks suffer anti elite weapons, and simply fold against real AT. They fixed only dreads, because the -1 damage is a perfect fix for this situation.
"For now" is the key thing there. I'd say the -1 damage for Tanks/Monsters should just be a base rule, but since GW has chosen not to do that for some stupid reason we can only hope that all the 'nid monstrous creatures get it.
Dreadnoughts got it because they have reasons for it lore-wise and GW only needed to transition a Stratagem into an ability.
Meanwhile the rest of the SM vehicles didn't get it.
I'm hoping for some wound increases in monsters and warriors, but I don't expect anything particularly radical except Adaptive Physiology becoming something you buy with points and power like the Chapter Command and Cryptek Arcana upgrades.
No real resilient scoring but whatever it's Nidzilla you need to weigh em down with big bugs. The plus side is this is gonna be extremely hard to push into, every big bug has an invul, and you can't really expect to use CC to push them off once they get stuck in, it's gonna take more than a Smash Captain or two to stop this sort of Nidzilla.
I think this is a pretty damn resilient list. Over 100 T7/T8 wounds with invuls isn't trivial for anything, and that's before the Malanthrope bubble and possibly the FNPs/Catalysts. It's also pretty mobile I think you would basically own the field with this.
I love Nidzilla, so I'd invest into this, BUT I feel like the codex is around the corner so who knows. This will be strong either way though I think.
I like it. But 6 forge world models sounds very exspensive to buy. Are there any nice kitbashes out there?
Yeah. Depends where your collection is at I guess. I own the Malanthrope and a Scythed Hierodule already. Triple Dima will always look cute on the table and they seem like they will probably be a pretty good unit from now on that GW is writing their rules and has settled on something for their design.
You could probably sub Dimas for Flyrants and play the same list and slowly swap out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think I might build this. I’ve been a Nidzilla player forever. I’d be remiss if I I didn’t play it now.
No I am not going to do it. I just spend the last of my money on Space Wolves.
But if I did it I would esdentially take the tyranofex legs + body.
Where it's head is poking out I would attach the top part of the trygon/mawlock. And then use a mawlock head.
Now you would be stuck with the legs and 4 limb slots on each side. Perhaps tilt the body a bit hier then a tyranofex usualy is. And then greenstuff 2 of the 4 limb slots shut. Fill the remaining two with the biggest trygon claws.
If there should be any guns I am a bit unsure where they go or what gun to use.
I am pretty sure I have seen somene do this but I do not know where.
Played this list vs a harlequins list and did very good. I did a slight mistake by casting catalyst on the Swarmlord first turn instead of putting it on my frontline heirodule (thought the opponent would try to snipe him out with his fusion). Also had some pretty bad rolls on turn 3 which ended up costing me the game. It was close though, i just ended up getting tabled since he basically pulled everything back turn 1 to shoot me up. The list does work though, as long as you can make a few of the 5++ saves.
List number 2 is the kronos list. Shoot all the things.......
Not alot of scoring units so your basically gonna have to move up the flyrants or the barbs on turn 1 to get some board pressence. I'd still take scramblers since you can get the last one turn 3 with the lictor. 48 str 8 ap-2 shots at D3 damage per turn is no joke though and with the tyrants dropping the anti-infantry shots as well our volume of output is quite nice. I would only try to focus on one flank and keeping your backfield with this list instead of going for both flanks since the lack of bodies is gonna make it hard to hold. Making your opponent leave part of his army out of the fight to hold one side is gonna let you overwhelm him much easier. Havent played this one yet but will soon.
Look. Are there any place where the stats for the hierodule is listet? I saw BOLS had some of them, but not the Hierodule. I have a hard tiem considering kit bashing it if I can not visulise how they would be.
just go look at pictures for the visualization. Eassy to see the stats on the youtube videos.
Best way to think of them is they are about 3-4x the size of a regular carnifex, but about the same shape. Their heads are flatter with a larger mouth, and their tail is a bit meater (as it would need to be to balance out the massive weight of the thing).
Eihnlazer wrote: So in honor of our new big boys i made 2 new lists to try them out.
First is the humble kraken list in all its
Not alot of scoring units so your basically gonna have to move up the flyrants or the barbs on turn 1 to get some board pressence. I'd still take scramblers since you can get the last one turn 3 with the lictor. 48 str 8 ap-2 shots at D3 damage per turn is no joke though and with the tyrants dropping the anti-infantry shots as well our volume of output is quite nice. I would only try to focus on one flank and keeping your backfield with this list instead of going for both flanks since the lack of bodies is gonna make it hard to hold. Making your opponent leave part of his army out of the fight to hold one side is gonna let you overwhelm him much easier. Havent played this one yet but will soon.
I really like your kraken list, and as I own a few pyrovores, I was wondering why the 3*3 ? What is they role, what do they bring to the table ? I have tried them quite a lot in 8th (kraken only, they are meh otherwise), but have yet to give them a go in 9th. Common belief is warriors and pyros overlap, warriors are obsec so they win. But that seems simplistic to me, there is more to pyros, I want to believe that !
That was fast! As far as I know the new SM or SW are not on battlescribe.
I did not understand the big differense in points, but I see one of them is 2+ save, the barbed one. That seems good in jormunghard. Getting 2+ with +1 on the save on a T8. I do not know how many AP 4 weapons there are out there, but by then do you even need to give it 5++?
The scythed one probably needs 5++ though. Also, move 12 is nice. The spray is nice.
How do they compare to knights? My regular opponent always runs a gorkanaught or morkanaught and it is always so har to deal with!
Eihnlazer wrote: So in honor of our new big boys i made 2 new lists to try them out.
First is the humble kraken list in all its
Not alot of scoring units so your basically gonna have to move up the flyrants or the barbs on turn 1 to get some board pressence. I'd still take scramblers since you can get the last one turn 3 with the lictor. 48 str 8 ap-2 shots at D3 damage per turn is no joke though and with the tyrants dropping the anti-infantry shots as well our volume of output is quite nice. I would only try to focus on one flank and keeping your backfield with this list instead of going for both flanks since the lack of bodies is gonna make it hard to hold. Making your opponent leave part of his army out of the fight to hold one side is gonna let you overwhelm him much easier. Havent played this one yet but will soon.
I really like your kraken list, and as I own a few pyrovores, I was wondering why the 3*3 ? What is they role, what do they bring to the table ? I have tried them quite a lot in 8th (kraken only, they are meh otherwise), but have yet to give them a go in 9th. Common belief is warriors and pyros overlap, warriors are obsec so they win. But that seems simplistic to me, there is more to pyros, I want to believe that !
So the fun thing about pyrovores is, that even maxed at 9, they are 1PL apiece, so it only costs 1 CP to reserve all 9 of them. I've had a load of success bringing them on from table edges to either get me points or remove enemy chaff off of points. They are a real pain for single model units and or anything less durable than a marine because of their flamers. They also tend to get underestimated and charged by stuff that thinks its fine againgst the overwatch (like a custodes or demon prince) and end up surprising them pretty hard when they wipe the unit and take 5 or more mortal wounds from double caustic blood and their death explosions.
There are hardly any units in the game more efficient than a 4 wound heavy flamer infantry that only costs 28pts.
Kraken trait keeps them relevant past the first turn of them coming on since they can get that sweet advance and still flame stuff.
Or just use them to do actions to score points since they are infantry.
That was fast! As far as I know the new SM or SW are not on battlescribe.
I did not understand the big differense in points, but I see one of them is 2+ save, the barbed one. That seems good in jormunghard. Getting 2+ with +1 on the save on a T8. I do not know how many AP 4 weapons there are out there, but by then do you even need to give it 5++?
The scythed one probably needs 5++ though. Also, move 12 is nice. The spray is nice.
How do they compare to knights? My regular opponent always runs a gorkanaught or morkanaught and it is always so har to deal with!
Individually weaker, but they are so cheap that you can field 2 Hierodules for each Knight. And that is a lot of S10 D D3+3 (average 5) tank busting melee.
I don’t see how 9 pyrovores, all individual models (unless I read you wrong) can bes reserved for 1 cp... in my codex pyrovores are 3 max. So it would be 3*1 cp, meaning 3 cp total, for 9 outflanking pyros...
addnid wrote: I don’t see how 9 pyrovores, all individual models (unless I read you wrong) can bes reserved for 1 cp... in my codex pyrovores are 3 max. So it would be 3*1 cp, meaning 3 cp total, for 9 outflanking pyros...
Per pg. 256 in the main rulebook, “...number of CPs required depends on the combined power ratings of all the units you wish to place in Strategic Reserves”
You total the PL of units, check the chart, pay that price.
i did take 3 units of 3. But yeah its just 1 CP for all 9 of them to come in from reserve.
Wait till turn 3 and your opponent will have a tough time finding the spare firepower to toss at them, or bring them in turn 2 to block off parts of the table from your opponents reserves.
1) How worth it is it to start looking at playing Nids right now? Any word on a new Dex around the corner, or nah?
2) How screwed am I without Blood of Baal? I've got the old 8th edition Dex, but I know that's missing some important stuff from Baal.
Nids are doing fine atm competitively. Not the strongest codex, and alot of our units feel lacking, but still very possible to win in 9th atm.
The forgeworld update brought new life into a few of our units and a slight buff to the malanthrope as well. It did also kill off Mieotic spores, though those werent utilized much by most of the nid players anyway.
Blood of baal really only gave us access to a few strats and relics which you can access on battlescribe for the most part so i wouldnt say the book is a necessity.
I think it was a massive buff to Malanthrope. It tripled the area of it's bubble this is very important since it's mostly used for protecting monsters, as opposed to Venom's which generally win out for infantry.
If you’re bored of eating the traditional Christmas fare and would like to try the succulent delicacies of, say, an entire planet’s population, the Brood Swarm is exactly what you need! 16 Genestealers, 10 Gargoyles, 3 Hive Guard/Tyrant Guard, an Exocrine/Haruspex, and Hive Tyrant/The Swarmlord will provide you with everything you need to make sure your enemies are dead and you’re well fed!
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Just in case people are not keeping an eye on the community/N&R page.
It looks like a decent buy to me. Granted, I’m still slowly growing my swarm and have yet to eat a battlefield.
Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord - You need at least one, and if you already have one, can build the other. Unless your collection is saturated, good deal
Exocrines seem great for cashing out primaris, last I checked they were still pretty good.
Hive guard are another unit that strikes me as good.
Genestealers I’m not so sure about. Seem kinda pricy, and a little frail, but also blendy. But at least you get enough in the box to make a good sized swarm out of.
Gargoyles are another unit that seems a little overpriced for what they can do. In a world of secondary objectives they strike me as a disposable unit you can flit around to score points and/or clog up the battlefield.
I’m planning on grabbing a box. I think I would have prefered last year’s, but missed that boat.
That box is amazing. You'll get our A+ expensive uints (hg and exo) as well as a Swarmlord to rush 16 Genestealers into someone's face.
Then you can have the Gargoyles run to an objective.
Yeah the Genestealers and Gargoyles are not great units but they'll do their job very well, especially if you run a list made of this box vs some of the other boxes.
Keramory wrote: That box is amazing. You'll get our A+ expensive uints (hg and exo) as well as a Swarmlord to rush 16 Genestealers into someone's face.
Then you can have the Gargoyles run to an objective.
Yeah the Genestealers and Gargoyles are not great units but they'll do their job very well, especially if you run a list made of this box vs some of the other boxes.
Genos and Gargoyles are trash tier, there's no other way to put this fact
addnid wrote: I don’t see how 9 pyrovores, all individual models (unless I read you wrong) can bes reserved for 1 cp... in my codex pyrovores are 3 max. So it would be 3*1 cp, meaning 3 cp total, for 9 outflanking pyros...
Per pg. 256 in the main rulebook, “...number of CPs required depends on the combined power ratings of all the units you wish to place in Strategic Reserves”
You total the PL of units, check the chart, pay that price.
@Eihnlazer and Nevelon: ah ok that is great to know, units plural ! Thanks guys. I will most certainly be using outflanking pyros from now on, thanks ! I have four models total, so probably 2 units if 1, then a unit of 2.
They seem better than lictors for deploy scrambled eggs, but I think I will still take at least on lictor if I need to deploy an infantry unit further from board edges. That is 4 elite slots, but a battalion still gives 6 if my memory is not too damaged from lockdown
yeah. The lictor is still a bit more reliable for linebreaker or scramblers as it can deepstrike anywhere on turn 2, but the pryo's cant go into the opponents deployment zone till turn 3.
A unit of one pyro is nice for the midzone scrambler though yes, or engage.
Keramory wrote: That box is amazing. You'll get our A+ expensive uints (hg and exo) as well as a Swarmlord to rush 16 Genestealers into someone's face.
Then you can have the Gargoyles run to an objective.
Yeah the Genestealers and Gargoyles are not great units but they'll do their job very well, especially if you run a list made of this box vs some of the other boxes.
Genos and Gargoyles are trash tier, there's no other way to put this fact
I’m on my phone and I saw this post and I’m like.... ah, a post calling perfectly playable units trash tier and declaring that this is simply a fact... why I bet that’s kurtangle. Drag left and, yup wouldn’t ya know.
Neither of those units are trash tier, if they feel that way you’re probably just using them wrong. Big blobs of stealers don’t work anymore, but that was the case since like midway 8th tbh. Gargs are a very underrated unit in the dex.
Niiai wrote:The biggest problem with gargoyles is and always will be transportation.
Do they use the old flight stems? With my Eldar jetbikes I found the hole for the peg fit a 2mm magnet neatly. Put another magnet on the top of the stem (clip the peg) and they keep on fine. As long as the mounting spot is more or less the center of mass, it should work. Looking at pics, seems to be the case. And when you don’t need to worry about the flight stands snapping off, transport gets a lot easier. Old metals might be a little too much mass and torque, but the plastics should be fine.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Sixteen Genestealers?
I honestly don't know how many unbuilt Genestealers I have. I know I have 70 unbuilt Gargoyles.
I'd rather just get another Exocrine.
One nice thing about coming into the Battleboxes reasonably fresh is I don’t have to worry about massive duplicates. So it’s a much better deal. That said, even I have a chunk of stealers and a few gargoyles kicking around. But most of them are old and a lot of the stealers are broken (not the stealers from the SC box, which are still on sprue)
Niiai wrote:The biggest problem with gargoyles is and always will be transportation.
Do they use the old flight stems? With my Eldar jetbikes I found the hole for the peg fit a 2mm magnet neatly. Put another magnet on the top of the stem (clip the peg) and they keep on fine. As long as the mounting spot is more or less the center of mass, it should work. Looking at pics, seems to be the case. And when you don’t need to worry about the flight stands snapping off, transport gets a lot easier. Old metals might be a little too much mass and torque, but the plastics should be fine.
Can confirm this is the way to go with gargoyles, makes storage so much easier (I have them loose in an "open" foam tray) and means they don't fall off the bases when you try moving them around on the board. They're a lot lighter than jetbikes so no balancing issues at all.
Whilst gargs are a bit overpriced (lack of obsec means they should probably be 6ppm not 7) they do have a role as a move blocker. A unit of 30 metabolic overdrived will stop the enemy from even getting out of their deployment zone turn 1, which is potentially a huge swing in terms of primary (and some secondary, potentially) points.
Niiai wrote:The biggest problem with gargoyles is and always will be transportation.
Do they use the old flight stems? With my Eldar jetbikes I found the hole for the peg fit a 2mm magnet neatly. Put another magnet on the top of the stem (clip the peg) and they keep on fine. As long as the mounting spot is more or less the center of mass, it should work. Looking at pics, seems to be the case. And when you don’t need to worry about the flight stands snapping off, transport gets a lot easier. Old metals might be a little too much mass and torque, but the plastics should be fine.
Can confirm this is the way to go with gargoyles, makes storage so much easier (I have them loose in an "open" foam tray) and means they don't fall off the bases when you try moving them around on the board. They're a lot lighter than jetbikes so no balancing issues at all.
Whilst gargs are a bit overpriced (lack of obsec means they should probably be 6ppm not 7) they do have a role as a move blocker. A unit of 30 metabolic overdrived will stop the enemy from even getting out of their deployment zone turn 1, which is potentially a huge swing in terms of primary (and some secondary, potentially) points.
But why would I take 7 ppm gargoyles when I can go for 15 ppm skyslasher swarms for fast objective grabbing (and with fewer deaths on metabolic due to fewer models and multiwound profiles)?
Gargoyles have no reason to exist at their current price points and with their rules as of now
So as one who has many gargoyles, 40 genestealers, 2 flying hive tyrants, 6 hive guards and 0 exoshrines the tyranid start collectong might not be for me?
I would love to test out hive guards with the electro shot. Thry look good on paper.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Because their role is blocking movement and gargoyles have a larger footprint
At this point I'd rather play 9 biovores to block movement from 48" No LoS and more efficiently rather than than 210 points of a un it that dies turn 1,requires CP to work and also loses 1/6 of units each time it is does that
Nitro Zeus wrote: Because their role is blocking movement and gargoyles have a larger footprint
Yup exactly. The role is to be boosted in front of the enemy front lines to block space, and 9 40mm sky-slashers have a hugely lower footprint than 30 (or even 24 if 6 die) gargoyles on 35mm flying stands.
EDIT: @ the above, you get 4 biovores for the same price so 9 is a false equivalence, and a max of 4 (or even 8 if you double shoot for 2CP) spore mines has vastly lower footprint. Whereas 25 or so gargoyles can occupy a vast portion of the midboard. Also, on some maps 12" and advance is probably sufficient, and you have swarmy available if 1CP is a big issue.
210pts and maybe a CP seems a reasonable trade for probably a 15 VP swing if the gargs help you keep them off the mid objectives (they lose hold 2/more, you gain hold more) - especially because your opponent then HAS to score 15 per turn basically every remaining turn to max out primary. I'm not saying gargoyles are the best unit in the dex, but to dismiss them as entirely worthless is silly, they clearly have a role that nothing else can fill that is strong given the 9th missions. Also, if they are killing your gargoyles (which they have to in order to manage to reclaim the central objectives) they are not killing other stuff with that firepower.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Because their role is blocking movement and gargoyles have a larger footprint
Yup exactly. The role is to be boosted in front of the enemy front lines to block space, and 9 40mm sky-slashers have a hugely lower footprint than 30 (or even 24 if 6 die) gargoyles on 35mm flying stands.
EDIT: @ the above, you get 4 biovores for the same price so 9 is a false equivalence, and a max of 4 (or even 8 if you double shoot for 2CP) spore mines has vastly lower footprint. Whereas 25 or so gargoyles can occupy a vast portion of the midboard. Also, on some maps 12" and advance is probably sufficient, and you have swarmy available if 1CP is a big issue.
210pts and maybe a CP seems a reasonable trade for probably a 15 VP swing if the gargs help you keep them off the mid objectives (they lose hold 2/more, you gain hold more) - especially because your opponent then HAS to score 15 per turn basically every remaining turn to max out primary. I'm not saying gargoyles are the best unit in the dex, but to dismiss them as entirely worthless is silly, they clearly have a role that nothing else can fill that is strong given the 9th missions. Also, if they are killing your gargoyles (which they have to in order to manage to reclaim the central objectives) they are not killing other stuff with that firepower.
You pay 450 pts compared to 210 but you get to use their movement blocking shenanigans for at least 2 Battle Rounds whereas 30 Gargoyles are:
1) Impossible to hide with their footprint even when you're using loads of Obscuring
2) Requires 1 CP to make 12" +2d6" move whilst losing between 4 and 6 models each time you do that (and I am not even considering the opportunity cost of NOT having something else double move + advance which is VERY RELEVANT in Tyranids)
3) One battle round of movement blocking shenanigans IF you go first, 0 if you go second.
4) 12" + d6" is 16"-18" movement which sometime sufficient but not as good as a 48" mines wall that happen to also do few MW when you manage to hit on 5s.
5) Tally tally tally, they are 3 VPs easily given to your enemy whereas Biovores are effectively not giving anything
6) You clearly overestimate the firepower to kill 30 gargoyles: at 7 ppm for 3+ 6+ they are the WORST wound per tank ratio in the game bar 5 ppm Gretchins, dying to ANYTHING that targets them, even gak S3 AP- shots
They're the 3rd worst tankyness per point in the game bar Gretchins and Ratlings, this alone should have you think how bad they are (and nobody really plays Gretchins and Ratlings); if they're bad at their intended role (both wound soaking AND movement blocking shenanigans), they don't have a use
Some ork lists use gretchins to grab objectives. They can't do gak. But holding an objectuve cheaply is very strong in a list that fights so well for midboard. As orks often do.
Niiai wrote: Some ork lists use gretchins to grab objectives. They can't do gak. But holding an objectuve cheaply is very strong in a list that fights so well for midboard. As orks often do.
I am with Kurt on this, kraken hormagaunts can do this fine for one cp (kraken double advance distance strat, which gargs can't use because of fly)) if you really need to box in your opponent on turn 1. Obsec and 1 ppm less, even though you need to be kraken.
I think if you are paying for gargoyles then you are kind of shooting yourself in the proverbial hoof. They had their time in the sun in 7th edition with the sky blight swarm formation.
At the end of 8th gargs had a place by stacking penalties to hit in melee (could get up to a -4 to hit with custome hive fleet, abilities, and psychic powers).
This was taken away in 9th so they really are kinda weak atm.
8th edition A+. 9th edition I very rarly see cassual or competive lists take them. I guess it depends on how you define trash tier. But they are very very bad IMHO.
I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.
We dont have any real clue as to the direction that GW is gonna take nids with their 9th codex, but if we look at the FW compendium, they could be trying to actually make nids more hoardy.
On the flip side, they could tune up some units like they have been doing with marines and necrons.
My best guess is to expect the big bugs to get upgraded (for an additional points cost of course), and our small bugs mabey getting 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Genestealers could possibly go up to 2 wounds, and im expecting warriors to possibly go up in str and/or toughness.
As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.
Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.
Eihnlazer wrote: We dont have any real clue as to the direction that GW is gonna take nids with their 9th codex, but if we look at the FW compendium, they could be trying to actually make nids more hoardy.
On the flip side, they could tune up some units like they have been doing with marines and necrons.
My best guess is to expect the big bugs to get upgraded (for an additional points cost of course), and our small bugs mabey getting 1 or 2 pts cheaper. Genestealers could possibly go up to 2 wounds, and im expecting warriors to possibly go up in str and/or toughness.
As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.
Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.
I think it is highly unlikely that gaunts go down in points, 9th was all about less hoards, a U turn on this would be strange
The swarm of little gribbles carpeting the table, backed up but a few big bugs, is an iconic vision of the Tyranids at war. While they often fail, GW tries to make it so you can play your army like it should. Things like the Core tag, and moving SM scouts out of troops show that this is still a thing they think about.
Now don’t get me wrong, GW does not do a great job actually executing on their vision. But they do occasionally make it happen.
Reivax26 wrote: I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.
What do the bugs have going for them in 9th?
Keep in mind their codex isn't out yet, so a lot can change. At the moment they're lacking attack numbers and AP on some things... and points need to be adjusted, but they're a fun army you wont be bored with. They're one of the few armies you can build any playstyle you'd like and it'll all do reliably well and feel thematic. You want an all shooting, melee or psychic army? You can do any. All flying? All underground? Horde? Giant monsters? Some combination of any of these or all of these? Tyranids can do it.
Reivax26 wrote: I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.
What do the bugs have going for them in 9th?
Keep in mind their codex isn't out yet, so a lot can change. At the moment they're lacking attack numbers and AP on some things... and points need to be adjusted, but they're a fun army you wont be bored with. They're one of the few armies you can build any playstyle you'd like and it'll all do reliably well and feel thematic. You want an all shooting, melee or psychic army? You can do any. All flying? All underground? Horde? Giant monsters? Some combination of any of these or all of these? Tyranids can do it.
I think I can agree with you that Nids can do all of those, but definitely not all of those *reliably well*. I think until the FW Compendium update, an all-melee army would've been pants. With Dimas and 'Dules, you could make it work (Nitro Zeus's list a couple pages back looks really good to me for being most/all melee). Same thing with all underground, or all flying... can't see either of those doing well. But yeah, to your point, Nids have the variety to pull it off if you are okay with being subpar.
Reivax26 wrote: I am debating on starting a new army. In my area there are no Tyranids and that seems odd to me. I have always thought of getting into Nids but for whatever reason always talked myself out of it.
As for directly atm, nids still have alot going for them. The codex itself is on the weaker end, but we do have a few fairly good units to leverage with, and alot of fearless obsec (which is very good to have in 9th). There are alot of secondaries that nids are quite good at scoring, so we ended up staying fairly competitive, even if we cant kill as much or last the whole 5 turns of the game.
Expect to make alot of points, then get wiped out towards the end.
I recently bumped into this guy's battle reports (he has 5-6 at the moment) https://www.reddit.com/user/Stormcoil/posts/ , which demonstrates a lot of Eihnlazer's answers, and it's a good read as he debates and explains his list-building and tactical choices very well. Even if his list is not your style there's a lot to learn in how to play the game, how to use some units, how to choose the right tools for the right jobs.
In particular he very effectively uses Lictors, Mawlocs & Rippers for guaranteed Deploy Scramblers, easy Lineabreaker/EoaF and objective taking/denying.
Several of his wins stem from a constant focus on point scoring&denying, board control, screening for enemy reserves etc, for which nids have indeed very good tools if you don't let yourself be sidetracked into killing stuff for the sake of killing stuff.
I have 60 genstealers. 40 Nids and 20 GSC. Stealers where good in 8th edition. In 9th edition they got far far faaaaaar worse. I would recoment big squads of them at the very least.
- They went up in points.
- They are super fragile, especially vs blast and flamers.
- 9th edition is about holding points. And genestealers want to keep moving moving moving.
- Overwtach is harsh vs them.
- One of the way you keep them alive is to 'tripod' an opponent you fight, meaning they can not fall back and shoot your GS. But a stratagem in 9th (break out?) prevents this.
- One of the things that made them so strong in 9th was the abilaty of declaring 2 charges, kill one of them. Use the move instead of cosolidate strat and the fight again strat to kill 2 units in melee. The way you need to make all your charges makes this dificult in 9th edition to say the least.
Bolters are very strong vs them. SW and Dark Angels will eat them up to breakfast.
My main opponent is an Ork. 8 point boys is about as strong as a 15 point genstealer,s although a bit slower. But with da jump and re-rolling charges they can really get to charge. If genestealers attack them, they often die to overwtach.
Sorry for the negative adetude. I just do not like them any more. If you do run them swarlord and kraken are very strong for them. Further the new terain rules should be good for them.
It was a good strategy in 8th edtion. Everybody who did it in 8th atemted it in 9th and it is much much worse.
I have been meaning to try Stealers in MSU, but my health has been very poor. But I don't know that they are terri-bad... Yet! But try several small squads of stealers and Broodlord commanders, and you can likely find them useful. Oh...MSU means Multiple Small Units.
Yeah, really it was the change to mission design that dramatically reduced the utility of the Genestealer bomb. If anything, the reduction in Overwatch helped them; but the addition of Blast and the points hike were damaging. I do think there are uses for them; small units taken in strategic reserves, or brought in by Lictors or Trygons, can do a disproportionate amount of damage. You just don't want a unit of 20 hoofing it across the board.
Re: FW books, given the lack of massive design changes I don't expect any radical overhauls.
And to be honest, I don't think our army needs radical overhauls. We're not fundamentally flawed like Tau and Guard are, nor are we constrained to one or two builds. The army just underperforms a bit as a whole.
So what I'm hoping for is, in addition to tweaks to the units that need it, some form of army-wide rule that can give the solid boost we need. Something like Synapse conferring a FNP, or army-wide adaptations that can be picked before the battle. Just a tweak to boost the army overall, as they did with Bolter Discipline and Doctrines for Marines.
What I'm expecting is some considerable rework is to our army wide rules, starting with the introduction of a Doctrines/Command Protocols equivalent, but also reworks to our Hive Fleet Adaptations, Warlord Traits, Stratagems (particularly the attack twice ones are going to be extremely nerfed), Adaptive Physiology, and of course the introduction of Crusade rules and Secondary Objectives. There are a lot of army wide rules in a 9th edition Codex.
But the actual unit datasheets? I'm expecting is Harpies and Hive Crones getting Aircraft rules, some weapons' reworks to improve the damage output (Hive Guard will need as they will lose firing twice) and hopefully some HQ slot shenanigans because that role is quite crowed for us.
Oh and of course basic infantry getting Core and the Swarmlord getting Supreme Commander.
Nids on the whole suffer from having a combination of bad issues.
No great access to reliable rerolls.
Very few units which produce damage are durable. The ones that are are limited and expensive.
Diminish returns on psychic powers / no signature awesome power. Best nid ability is tied to swarmlord.- (swarm commander)..who apart from being good in melee is gutter trash otherwise. The ability also comes with a weak disadvantage of (instead of shooting).
Low armor saves on horde units with t3 - bad stats - and bad weapons (AKA the worse possible units) and they aren't even cheaper than gaurdsmen.
Inspite of all these issues I still managed pretty well with them in 8th. The biggest issue they have now is - not even their PA stepped them up much. The nid PA was an absolute joke and whoever glanced it over and said...thatll do...that person deserves a kick directly in the crotch. it is so hive fleet dependent you can't get anything done with it. You are still better off just running pure levi for the 6+ FNP bonus.
Pretty much -spam carnifex tyrants and hive guard. Maybe a gant bomb from a trygon (sucks it does 0 damage to a custodian unit most the time) . Maybe exocrine (a little better now that you don't get a -1 for move and shoot plus the PA stratagem)
1. GW incorporates everything from Blood of Baal into the new 'Dex, except Dermic Symbiosis. 2. Exocrines lose their strat to move and fire. 3. Hive Guard get nerfed. 4. Carnifexes lose a wound and go up by 50 points.
As you might guess, I have zero faith in GW getting our next book right.
Niiai wrote: I have 60 genstealers. 40 Nids and 20 GSC. Stealers where good in 8th edition. In 9th edition they got far far faaaaaar worse. I would recoment big squads of them at the very least.
- They went up in points.
- They are super fragile, especially vs blast and flamers.
- 9th edition is about holding points. And genestealers want to keep moving moving moving.
- Overwtach is harsh vs them.
- One of the way you keep them alive is to 'tripod' an opponent you fight, meaning they can not fall back and shoot your GS. But a stratagem in 9th (break out?) prevents this.
- One of the things that made them so strong in 9th was the abilaty of declaring 2 charges, kill one of them. Use the move instead of cosolidate strat and the fight again strat to kill 2 units in melee. The way you need to make all your charges makes this dificult in 9th edition to say the least.
Bolters are very strong vs them. SW and Dark Angels will eat them up to breakfast.
My main opponent is an Ork. 8 point boys is about as strong as a 15 point genstealer,s although a bit slower. But with da jump and re-rolling charges they can really get to charge. If genestealers attack them, they often die to overwtach.
Sorry for the negative adetude. I just do not like them any more. If you do run them swarlord and kraken are very strong for them. Further the new terain rules should be good for them.
It was a good strategy in 8th edtion. Everybody who did it in 8th atemted it in 9th and it is much much worse.
Actually, in the modern meta they have a surprisingly useful role.
Some of has could have forgot it, but they have the infestation nodes, which are really good now.
The current meta is made by mostly assault units plus a firebase based on high quality shots. Being able to counterpunch such lists from a point is as necessary now as it was to one round a knight in 8th. You place stealer nodes close (but not too close) to your objectives, so that when they bum rush those objectives, you countercharge on your turn with an easy charge (no limitation of 9" on getting out from a node). Stealers are deadly enough for the job, and even if something survives they are obsec.
You have to use them as a defensive unit more than a shock assault one.
What do you mean no limitation of gettin within 9 from a node? I might misunderdstand you, but it sounds like you are using them wrong. Or are you talking about daisy chaining 6" out? (Putting the node between 8,9 and 6 from the enemy?)
Niiai wrote:What do you mean no limitation of gettin within 9 from a node? I might misunderdstand you, but it sounds like you are using them wrong. Or are you talking about daisy chaining 6" out? (Putting the node between 8,9 and 6 from the enemy?)
As in: the genestealers can be deployed via node (within 6" of it) without the limitation of having to deploy 9" away from enemies.
Eldarain wrote:It's one of the few ways of being placed on the table that doesn't require keeping the arriving unit outside of 9"' of enemies.
Bit tricky though as the node gets removed if enemies are within 9 of it. Placing it the way Spoletta describes sounds quite interesting.
Indeed. They're free and no one uses them, so why not? Put them 12"-ish from board edges to prevent destruction from outflankers (can't do much about DS), and you'll probably be able to deploy in a decently easy charge range. Keep one node in a safe area to avoid losing your unit if the others fail.
One problem with infestation nodes (other than them getting destroyed if all the nodes are) is that they are subject to normal reserve rules - no coming on before t2. Which is really frustrating when you need them to clear an obj when your opponent gets t1. I think if it weren't for that the nodes would have play.
They got our 8th dex right, until the FAQ a few days later nerfed half of it to uselessness.
Im expecting them to fix a few things and introduce some new kits.
Shrikes are gone from forgeworld, and not in legends, so my fingers are crossed they just allow warriors to take wings and give them either str5 or T5.
Genestealers either need a points drop (down to 12) or they need to go to 17pts and gain a wound. Either way fixes them.
They wont drop termigants points down, but horms might drop to 6 or 7 as 8pts is too much for a t3/6+ model that cant advance and charge and only has 2 str3 attacks.
Im hoping big bugs get some love, either with more wounds for free, a toughness increase, or become cheaper.
Eihnlazer wrote: They got our 8th dex right, until the FAQ a few days later nerfed half of it to uselessness.
Im expecting them to fix a few things and introduce some new kits.
Shrikes are gone from forgeworld, and not in legends, so my fingers are crossed they just allow warriors to take wings and give them either str5 or T5.
Genestealers either need a points drop (down to 12) or they need to go to 17pts and gain a wound. Either way fixes them.
They wont drop termigants points down, but horms might drop to 6 or 7 as 8pts is too much for a t3/6+ model that cant advance and charge and only has 2 str3 attacks.
Im hoping big bugs get some love, either with more wounds for free, a toughness increase, or become cheaper.
Horms may be listed at 6ppm, but it's actually 7 because of mandatory adrenal glands. And in Marine heavy metas toxin makes them less bad. So 9ppm for a s3 t3 model that in a unit of 20 can maybe kill 1 marine per game.
StarHunter25 wrote: Horms may be listed at 6ppm, but it's actually 7 because of mandatory adrenal glands. And in Marine heavy metas toxin makes them less bad. So 9ppm for a s3 t3 model that in a unit of 20 can maybe kill 1 marine per game.
Well, then don't do that. I mean, you're taking a 6ppm horde unit, increasing it to 9ppm without increasing its durability and only marginally increasing its offensive output, and then complaining that they're too expensive. Toxin Sacs in particular are a lot of points for an upgrade that, if you're resolving damage allocation correctly (randomized), wastes wounds on overkill half the time.
Bare Hormagaunts are a little tougher to get into melee, but have better damage output for the cost and drastically better survivability. They're still not spectacular, but they're better at doing what Hormagaunts are there for- tying things up so the real killers can get in position.
Well, that's because, with the exception of hormas, our low level gribbles aren't really melee units. They are fodder meant to control objectives and protect our more valuable units.
9th edition is doing a hard balance pass on the melee vs shooting thing.
This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.
Just look at the 2 new codici. Marines lost full reroll auras, lost double shooting on aggressors and lost all buffs on vehicles. Marine shooting is only a shadow of its former self, definitely not the omnipotent firepower we were used to in 8th. Only eradicators and plasmaceptors keep it afloat.
At the same time, they used to have very very few decent melee choices, even with their improbable amount of datasheets. Now they have bladeguards, new terminators, outriders, vanguard vets, assault intercessors... and that's not including special snowflake chapter goodness (Deathwing, sang guards, wolfity wolf).
Marine lists are now 70-80% assault oriented, because the melee threats have been really pushed in terms of durability and offensive capability.
As a consequence, compared to the new design, our shooting choices are actually quite good. On the other hand, our melee threats are simply made with a different design. You can see this new design applied to a nid unit in the scydule, which for its cost possesses some melee features that are simply unheard of for us.
Tyran wrote: I think the issue is that melee hordes are pretty much dead.
But melee heavy infantry? it is doing great.
Sadly we don't have melee heavy infantry.
Yes but our FW monsters are twice as cost effective as our other big bugs, perhaps they hold "OK enough" in brawls against heavy infantry.
Math is needed here, but damage3+d3 combined with stormshields dropping to 4++ should somewhat balance the scales
On a comical note, we have hve guards which are supposed to be heavy infrantry. They are a total trash tier unit, probably the absolute worst heavy infantry unit in the game TBH, but in the next codex they may get more attacks and weapons with more damage. or cruching claws with no neg to hit, and so on.
GSC also have "40% too expensive" aberrants... Oh how these mighty lads have fallen
Spoletta wrote: This means that it is nerfing shooting while empowering melee.
Blast rules. Eradicators. Vehicles firing in combat. Strat to avoid tri-pointing.
If they're really nerfing shooting in 9th, then they're doing a fething bad job of it.
They are actually doing an excellent job.
Evidence:
1) Top lists are all assault based.
2) Tau are screwed.
That isn't because GW is 'nerfing shooting while empowering melee', it's because the mission design greatly favors melee as a means to contest objectives.
Play the 9th Ed statlines with 8th Ed missions and it's still a shooting game as ever. The utility of melee troops is not from having comparable combat effectiveness to shooting; it's from their ability to contribute to objective gameplay, and a mission design that makes defensive armies non-viable.
Melee isn't being made more powerful in raw damage output as compared to shooting, it just has more game utility now than it used to.
Tyran wrote:I think the issue is that melee hordes are pretty much dead.
But melee heavy infantry? it is doing great.
Sadly we don't have melee heavy infantry.
Warriors and Tyrant Guard could fit the bill. Both only need minor tweaks- most of all just cost- to become effective melee infantry.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm curious: How would you tweak Tyranid warriors?
I've always found them to be far too fragile for their points, even as far back as 2nd Ed.
Fragility for their cost is part of it, odd pricing on their weapons relative to the platform is another part. The base profile is just too expensive for what you get. A dual ScyTal Warrior is just not worth it, and Devourers are a joke compared to Deathspitters, so you're encouraged to load up on upgrades- which makes them killy, but cuts their durability.
So, baseline changes:
1. A significant points drop on the base profile, and a mild hike on Boneswords. Make more of a progression from Scything Talons -> Rending Claws -> Boneswords, so that you have to think about what you want the unit to do and whether loading up on expensive melee weapons fits your intended purpose. At the same time, a significantly cheaper base profile means that 'budget' Warriors start to become viable.
2. Similarly, drop Devourers to 3pts; they shouldn't be 2/3 the cost of Deathspitters while worse in range, S, and AP.
Spitballing hard numbers, if the base profile dropped to 16pts, Boneswords went up to 4pts, and Devourers down to 3pts, then we'd be looking at 21pts for a Rending Claws/Devourer Warrior (vs 27pts currently, so 75%), while a Boneswords/Deathspitter Warrior would be 26pts (vs 30pts currently, so 87%). Both builds get a points drop, but the 'budget' build being 80% of the cost of the expensive one, rather than 90% of the cost, makes it more worth considering.
On top of that, random non-exclusive ideas to really juice them up:
-Bring back Extended Carapace as a biomorph; a 3+ save wouldn't be meta-breaking but it sure would help when they need to be durable.
-Bring back Enhanced Senses as a biomorph. I mean, come on.
-Implement Unyielding Chitin as an innate ability (tweak points as necessary). Reducing incoming damage by 1 takes a lot of the sting out of multi-damage weapons that ordinarily kill them easily.
More generally, and getting away from my 'minor tweaks' statement, being vulnerable is not a uniquely Warrior problem. Most of the army suffers from being glass hammers, but neither exceptionally fast nor especially 'hammery'. So what if Synapse outright conferred a 6+ FNP to nearby units, with Leviathan and Catalyst improving it further and/or extending the range? Beyond the obvious benefits, 6+ FNPs interact non-intuitively with D2/D3 weapons against W2/W3 models, which would make Warriors significantly more resilient to multi-damage weapons. This would help against their biggest threat, while reinforcing their role as lynchpins of the swarm. On top of that, why is it that Adaptive Physiology is limited to two units max? I'd like to see that cap removed- or, better yet, implemented as an army-wide trait, where before the game begins you can pick an adaptation for the whole army to suit your unique matchup. Warriors shouldn't need the crutch of a two-per-army Enhanced Resistance (or Dynamic Camouflage, if you're Jormungandr) to be useful.
Even without army-wide changes, Warriors aren't fundamentally broken- they're a generalist heavy infantry unit in an edition that is kind to generalist heavy infantry, so there are a lot of levers GW can work with to adjust them.
Edit: Weren't they 50-ish points in 2nd? I remember them being hideously expensive for what they were.
No, they shouldnt have a 3+ baseline. Ceremite armor is gonna be more durable than chitin no matter how you cut it. They should be either T5 or 4 wounds apiece though.
GW went through a phase of making size matter for wounds count, and warriors are significantly bigger than most other infantry. I'd rate them at least as chunky as Custodian terminators, so they should be 4 wounds apiece.
Making them S5 would make their melee not be a joke, but you can easily just implement that to boneswords (make them 4pts apiece and give them +1str in addition to what they already do).
No real reason for warriors to be the same strength as genestealers.
So basically bump warriors to 4 wounds apiece for no cost increase, make boneswords give +1str and cost 1 extra point, and give them the option to purchase extended carapace for 2pts a model.
I'd even go so far as to say Deathspitters need to be assault 4. I dont expect them to go to damage 2 like a heavy bolter but they should get more shots. Devourers definately need a points drop, even down to 2pts apiece as they are just assault bolters.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even 21pts for a Rending Claws/Devourer Warrior that's just going to get chewed up by Heavy Bolters doesn't sound appealing.
From my perspective, that's 21pts for a model that is 50% more resilient than a 20pt Intercessor against those Heavy Bolters. As for weapons it's worse shooting than an Intercessor, but better melee, so not awful there either. Out of curiosity, how cheap would a RC/Dev Warrior have to be for you to consider it?
First and foremost, Tyranid Warriors NEED to be at least the Gravis equivalent of a Marine (T5 3W 3+) or have a similar profile (T5 4W 4+); you can't have a decent unit otherwise because any loadout that increases killingness is making the points/wounds ratio even worse than before and you can't afford to have an already bad profile to begin with.
Well you can field 3 melee warriors for 60 points. Double scything tallons for ekstra attacks. Perhaps go adrenal glands for that +1 to charge. Our cheapest 'heavy' option. :-p
Probably better with lash whip and bonesword, shooting weapon optional. I really like the warriors lash whip because that forces them to be shot, or charged by a dreadnought. Charge them with integressiors aggressors or the new shield primaris and you get to fight back.
I think Tyrant guards need more love than warriors.
Anyway, lets move away from santa wishlisting:
Has anybody tried the scythed dule ? Have you had issues (like me) getting his base through terrain ?
If I had known (I did have suspicions...) I would have doubled down on Dimas as soon as FW book dropped. Now my "FW shop" is all sold out (so I will mix a mawloc kit with the tervigon/tyrano kit and do my second kitbashed dima, costing me twice as much...)
My first two thoughts on tyranids as a whole would be to give them a different type of durability. This is just the surface of what needs to change in my opinion, but if we're talking wishlist sort of stuff...
First, Synapse gives Feel No Slain a la Graia. Gives tyranids that "They just wont die" sort of vibe.
Second give tyranids alot of wounds, and better damage tracks if at all. 6 wound warriors, 12 wound carnifex with no damage track, 20-24 wound Tervigons and Tyrranofex, perhaps even more. I'm fine with having less invulnerable saves if they have that many more wounds.
Nids major issue currently it output. We're now in a place where we have solid amount of high quality shots in the reasonable cost range but have almost no high volume low st output at anything like what other armies do.
Anything Monster that isn't an exocrine, dima, or heirodule needs a revamp in 1 of 3 ways (preferably 2). Increased durability (W/Inv/T), Higher volume output, and/or point overhauls. Did you know a Barbed Heirodule is a solid unit and that just two carnifexes in a similar roll cost the same or more and are massively pt for pt worse.
So I grabbed the big Nid battle force Brood swarm box and am mulling over how to build it. Obvious answer is “magnets”. Slightly less obvious answer is “You are a casual player, and are unlikely to face anything tougher then your son’s Salamanders, so just go with what looks cool”. Or "We have no clue what is going to happen if/when we get a codex, ask your magic 8-ball”. All of these are true.
The Hive Tyrant gets wings. That’s going to be fixed. I think they just look awesome, and will make it look like the centerpiece of the army that she should be. I recognize that there are some nice things about the Swarmlord, but that will come later if I get another one. My first though when scanning the rules was monstrous scything talons and a HVC as a general TAC build. I like the way the talons look (more then claws/swords) and feel you can never have enough AV firepower in a list. How can you make a WYSWYG flyrent? You get two arm choices, but one set of arm sockets is taken up with the wings? If I had to pick one for modeling, not sure how that would go. I think the claws look better, but there is something to be said for the wings and gun look as the big momma of the gargoyle swarm.
Are there any relics that make something a lot better than others? If I can’t be WYSWYG it’s not a huge deal, but I do like to keep as close as I can. Going with a shooty relic would tilt things towards the gun build. It might not be true-WYSWYG, but you would look at it and think “That’s something that shoots well” vs. “That’s a flying blender”
There are enough options and it looks easy enough to magnetize, but I’m not going to do all the options, so am noodeling around idea for the primary build.
Gargoyles have 0 options, they just get built.
I was planning on just glueing the Exocrine, but from the instructions it looks like the headswap should be real easy to do. Might just glue whatever arms I think look better on, or magnetize them if I want to go all the way.
I like the classic look of the stealers, but there is no reason to not give them talons these days. Carapace looks to be a trap, but I might model them on anyway to help tie them visually with the rest of the army. Looking at the ones on the box, they just seem naked without a little purple coving them up.
Hive guard I’m leaning hard into impaler cannons. As I’m fixed with the flyrent, the bodyguards don’t really appeal to me. Plus I think they look ugly. If I want a CC unit, I’ll grab some 'fexes or warriors. So if going with shooty, the impalers seem worth the points over the shock. Plus look cooler. And if I’m already going fuzzy on the WYSWYG, why not go with the better looking option?
So am I missing anything major? Just wanted to float ideas for opinions.
Nevelon wrote: My first though when scanning the rules was monstrous scything talons and a HVC as a general TAC build. I like the way the talons look (more then claws/swords) and feel you can never have enough AV firepower in a list. How can you make a WYSWYG flyrent? You get two arm choices, but one set of arm sockets is taken up with the wings? If I had to pick one for modeling, not sure how that would go. I think the claws look better, but there is something to be said for the wings and gun look as the big momma of the gargoyle swarm.
His legs can count as scything talons. So you save the trouble modeling it another way.
I was planning on just glueing the Exocrine, but from the instructions it looks like the headswap should be real easy to do. Might just glue whatever arms I think look better on, or magnetize them if I want to go all the way.
This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ? So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
Hundreds of bodies, all with an invun. All infantry so you can do actions to score. High mobility so you can get anywhere on the board and choke your opponent out of sections of the board. Decent mortal wound output that dont care if you spend points on durability.
This list wins in 9th edition. Is it fun to play?......... well thats on you to decide.
This is my current iteration of my league list. Feels solid. Though there may be a few changes coming the core is solid with the kronos patrol, malaceptor, malanthrope, and 3 barbed herodules.
League Nids
Tyranids - Strike Force - Grand Tournament ( 9CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Hundreds of bodies, all with an invun. All infantry so you can do actions to score. High mobility so you can get anywhere on the board and choke your opponent out of sections of the board. Decent mortal wound output that dont care if you spend points on durability.
This list wins in 9th edition. Is it fun to play?......... well thats on you to decide.
Nice ! That list is a great discussion topic.
While I totally don't dispute the fact that -throwing 3*30 gargoyles into an opponent faces, to choke them in their deployment zone and prevent them from scoring- works perfectly well, I think that only TTS players would do that. No one can carry 90 gargoyles + as many gaunts to a tournament, let alone play multiple games in a day with that sort of list.
Unless... Well I guess with careful planning and a lot of crafting it can be done.
In any case I have a few armies and I don't see any winning against the list you posted. I have orks, perhaps 100 boyz, but i would still lose if I go second, because turn 1 that list can prevent me da jumping by covering the board (just like mass infantry gen cult but on turn 2).
I guess one would need tons of strengh 4 shots to down 2 units per turn, but that army would auto lose against custodes and other armies which don't care about S4 shots.
150 boyz + ghaz is the same kind of list (which is actually easy to transport) and is also a problem in the current meta. Perhaps some people know how to deal with these armies, I have for one have no clue, not with a TAC list that can work at a tournament when you don't know who you will be up against
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: This is my current iteration of my league list. Feels solid. Though there may be a few changes coming the core is solid with the kronos patrol, malaceptor, malanthrope, and 3 barbed herodules.
League Nids
Spoiler:
Tyranids - Strike Force - Grand Tournament ( 9CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Total Command Points: 5/14
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
I agree it feels reall solid. 3 Jormun barbed Hs pack a ton of 48' shooting, and I don't think you can lose more than 1 per turn, even against a avery fierce AT gunline (not if all 3 are in maleceptor bubble range). Some opponents won't even be able to kill one in 2 turns. I would go for an exocrine or two thgouh, in the kronos patrol, instead of hive guards because ap3 shots can really come in handy, and there is too much overlap between 3 barbs and HGs.
Again, great list ! I only own one of each hierodule but if I had 3 I would love to give them a spin in the same kind of list. BTW I added "spoilers" to your list in my quote, I love how they shorten the length of this post !
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
Yeah I know, it happens on so many forums. I plead guilty to doing that too from time to time (straying form the topic that is), but sometimes it just gets out of hhand and someone has to call it
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
Magnetising your gargoyles is tactics. Other gice you have no usable way to transport them an thus is a blank entry.
The hiveguard actually give me some indirect fire and have the equivalent ap against most units in cover as Exocrine. I've found I need less and less direct fire. And that doesn't even count double firing the hiveguard which you can't do with the big bugs.
The hiveguard actually give me some indirect fire and have the equivalent ap against most units in cover as Exocrine. I've found I need less and less direct fire. And that doesn't even count double firing the hiveguard which you can't do with the big bugs.
If you don’t move, the Exocrine naturally doubleshots?
Looking at both the impaler HG and the Exocrine, they seem roughly equivalent to me. I could see pros and cons to either depending on the matchup and the rest of the list, but they seem to fill the same basic role. I like the flat damage, but S8 is also pretty nice. Degrading profile vs. loosing models is another coin flip.
Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
Hulksmash wrote: Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
It is also considerably more expensive and subject to the limitations of stratagems. Moreover, the Exocrine benefits more from Symbiostorm because it can have exploding 5+.
IMHO, it depends on the terrain (the more terrain, the better the Hive Guard is) and the meta (Hive Guard is better against T8 targets).
Hulksmash wrote: Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
I was looking at roughly equal points, so 3xHG vs 1 Exo. A 6 bug squad is going to lay down a lot more harm, granted.
Yes, the ppints are different but to me even 2 exocrines (similar points) isnt as useful given ability to hide and higher strength plus inherent 3+ to hit and that brings them to the same number of shots. And mobility is an issue if i do need to move as then double shooting and bonus to hit require a strat as well.
I get the idea of the exocrine and prior to barbs i loved them. But if im using 3 barbs an exocrine is just an easier to kill lower st herodule.
depending on collection ofc, but in dreamland I wouldn't bother with any non-FWmc's except for maybe Swarmlord atm, they are just never gonna be worth it comparatively.
Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
Yep I guess we will see, but I have had many tournaments where I thought I was going to get most games against marines, and ended up not even getting one round...
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
It's because of the pandemic. People have, at best, a lot less opportunity to use tactics by actually playing. At the same time people have a lot more opportunity to stay at home and work on models or think about models they'd like to have.
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
A metagame influx of Gravis - and, I would argue, new Plague Marines - means that S8’s advantage over S7 diminishes, and the Exo’s access to Pathogenic Slime gets it a significant boost in my eyes.
The Barbed Hierodule also has access to Pathogenic Slime.
Applies it’s damage much easier. So much more range. Move and shoot. So much more resilient. Punches hard in melee. Faster.
Exocrine is cheaper and marginally out damages Hierodule if both to get to shoot under ideal circumstances at Gravis, as it has 1 extra point of AP. But you have to apply that damage, and Barby is so much more practical and reliable at doing that. It also outdamages vs many other targets. It pays for those benefits but it’s a very cheap price for what you get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exocrine is probably the best non-HQ, non-FW monster in the army, and is still a significant step down from the FW monsters imo
Sure the Barbed Hierodule provides mobile firepower, but if you want to stay still and just shoot the Exocrine is far more efficient while the Barbed Hierodule wants to be more aggressive to get to use those massive talons.
Nitro Zeus wrote: The Barbed Hierodule also has access to Pathogenic Slime.
Applies it’s damage much easier. So much more range. Move and shoot. So much more resilient. Punches hard in melee. Faster.
Exocrine is cheaper and marginally out damages Hierodule if both to get to shoot under ideal circumstances at Gravis, as it has 1 extra point of AP. But you have to apply that damage, and Barby is so much more practical and reliable at doing that. It also outdamages vs many other targets. It pays for those benefits but it’s a very cheap price for what you get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exocrine is probably the best non-HQ, non-FW monster in the army, and is still a significant step down from the FW monsters imo
This
Nidzilla is only viable thanks to FW monsters and Malanthrope and even if you want to run few FW pieces they are the best bang for buck in the entire Army
I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
grouchoben wrote: I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
I do believe most good nid players have givin up winning in a fair fight. Instead they lean very hard into the objective game.
I've just shelved my nids for now. They can win, but they don't make for fun games.
I've got my sisters to carry me until the next nid codex, which is actually shaping up to be extremely nice, since all the design aims of this edition point to great things for nids.
Agreed, Nids are in an odd spot right now where the best tactic is to flood the board and fight against the scenario rather than against the other player, maximizing points and killing little. Many find it not fun because it has no heroism and no real in game battle feel, more like playing a euro board game and maximizing points. It’s also a major investment in dollars, assembly, painting, transporting, and moving hordes, which turns away a lot of players.
The second most effective approach currently is to lean heavily into shooting (guns or mind bullets) which feels weird for a lot of Tyranid players who love the traditional fluff of overwhelming their opponent in melee.
The visceral “crush your enemy under weight of claws and talons” approach for Nids is absolutely overcosted at the moment, which is a real shame since we are generally in the best edition for melee arguably since fourth!
Verthane wrote: Agreed, Nids are in an odd spot right now where the best tactic is to flood the board and fight against the scenario rather than against the other player, maximizing points and killing little. Many find it not fun because it has no heroism and no real in game battle feel, more like playing a euro board game and maximizing points. It’s also a major investment in dollars, assembly, painting, transporting, and moving hordes, which turns away a lot of players.
The second most effective approach currently is to lean heavily into shooting (guns or mind bullets) which feels weird for a lot of Tyranid players who love the traditional fluff of overwhelming their opponent in melee.
The visceral “crush your enemy under weight of claws and talons” approach for Nids is absolutely overcosted at the moment, which is a real shame since we are generally in the best edition for melee arguably since fourth!
So we experiment and we wait...
I play mostly an ork player these days. I always felt flustered that he was better then me in melee as I have thought of nids as a melee or hybrid army. So when I built shoot lists I always felt like I did wrong. Falling back, chaff and shoot was the only thing working. Glad to hear more players have the same conclusions. I love the models and rules though. I just think they need a better identity strategic vice. Playing to missions is fine, but I wish that was more represented in the fluff.
Personally I love shooty nids, they evolved guns for a reason and Kronos is my favorite Hive Fleet (so daemons are better in melee? no problem just shoot them off reality). But yeah it is a shame melee nids aren't viable (aside of FW monsters).
grouchoben wrote: I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
I do believe most good nid players have givin up winning in a fair fight. Instead they lean very hard into the objective game.
I have kind of a problem with the concept of "fair game". In most cases, "fair" means, your opponent has good line of sight while sitting in cover himself and being in possession of long range weaponry to shoot you "heroic" of the board, the tyranids not beeing much more than targets in a shooting gallery. This has not changed much over the past editions, and in addition we lost parts of our really heavy close combat punch to compensate. I remember all too well to often play the mission instead of killing the enemy in past times.
And so it is with 9th again, but at least the cover is better. Control the board, play the mission and stop the enemy doing so. In some cases you even dont need to be that tactical, because your enemy wants to "purge the enemy" so hard, it rather helps your goals than his.
So, dont ever be ashamed to play "dirty". The narrative heroism pushes meq so much, you have to use the tricks you got, while brute force does not help us much in most cases.
If my opponent crabs about why I sacrifice units and do not give him his "deserved" right to heroically kick the damned xenos into oblivion AND win the game, I always respond that the hivemind does not care about losses in any case as long the world is consumed an the final goals are reached. *micdrop*
I use almost any trick I can pull up my sleeves to do so, and "fair" is no term to use in this game as long the odds are not the same.
While I might be wrong I was under the assumption that nids VS SM was so bad for us? 2 exoshrine who are quite standard line up quite well VS space marines.
It are other armies nids have a hard time against? Or am I reading the room wrong? (gunline / playing objectives nids lists that is.)
Also I think you and I use the word fair differently. In my mind playing fair is trying to kill the other players models. As opposed to flodding the board with 6++ ghaunts or playing objectives. (Does not matter if I am dead if I won the game.)
Also it is not the narrative heroisemn that pushes SM so much. It is in fact the rules they have coupled with said rules not costing much points compared to other options in the game. If for instance we lovered the cost of a tyranids warrior to 5 points and a carnifex to 15 points I suspect 'the narrative destruction of the great devourer' would really shine through in the game.
The narrative is a pissing contest. In a world where everyone is the best, branding you as sub par would not really hold up. (Actually being slightly bellow average would not be so bad when everyone is the best, because the average would be the best.)
"Playing to kill the other players models" has nothing to do with fairness. Pretty much any strategy game will tell you that killing the enemy is not the objective, but a means of completing the objective, and that sometimes there are better means.
At most you can say it isn't fair to be bringing tournament level lists into casual games, in which case I would agree, but that is only somewhat related with the above.
Tyran wrote: "Playing to kill the other players models" has nothing to do with fairness. Pretty much any strategy game will tell you that killing the enemy is not the objective, but a means of completing the objective, and that sometimes there are better means.
At most you can say it isn't fair to be bringing tournament level lists into casual games, in which case I would agree, but that is only somewhat related with the above.
Yeah. I think there is some confusion being made between 'fair' and 'straightforward'. If an opponent thinks it is 'unfair' of someone to NOT run straight into his guns and instead focus on the objectives I'd say that opponent has some serious issues to work out.
grouchoben wrote: I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
I do believe most good nid players have givin up winning in a fair fight. Instead they lean very hard into the objective game.
I have kind of a problem with the concept of "fair game". In most cases, "fair" means, your opponent has good line of sight while sitting in cover himself and being in possession of long range weaponry to shoot you "heroic" of the board, the tyranids not beeing much more than targets in a shooting gallery. This has not changed much over the past editions, and in addition we lost parts of our really heavy close combat punch to compensate. I remember all too well to often play the mission instead of killing the enemy in past times.
And so it is with 9th again, but at least the cover is better. Control the board, play the mission and stop the enemy doing so. In some cases you even dont need to be that tactical, because your enemy wants to "purge the enemy" so hard, it rather helps your goals than his.
So, dont ever be ashamed to play "dirty". The narrative heroism pushes meq so much, you have to use the tricks you got, while brute force does not help us much in most cases.
If my opponent crabs about why I sacrifice units and do not give him his "deserved" right to heroically kick the damned xenos into oblivion AND win the game, I always respond that the hivemind does not care about losses in any case as long the world is consumed an the final goals are reached. *micdrop*
I use almost any trick I can pull up my sleeves to do so, and "fair" is no term to use in this game as long the odds are not the same.
Hah hah that was indeed true for many editions, or you had the sky blight formation in 7 th, but I remember those times too.
But honestly I kill my opponents fine now that I have 3 dimachaerons and hierodules.Yes if I face an Sm army with tons of eradicators (or other skew towards anti tank) I will lose, but honestly if you can grab FW goodness then nids are not anymore in « play the objective by flooding the board or doing other weird stuff » territory.
Been out for awhile and was just getting back to finish out my bugs and maybe play a bit, then see that yet another new addition has dropped. Sounds like we are not yet recovering the damage of 5e. Assuming no access to FW, what are we looking at these days, and were has GW stashed all the rules?
barnowl wrote: Been out for awhile and was just getting back to finish out my bugs and maybe play a bit, then see that yet another new addition has dropped. Sounds like we are not yet recovering the damage of 5e. Assuming no access to FW, what are we looking at these days, and were has GW stashed all the rules?
Without FW you can do stuff but mainly in the area of shooting and board covering / objective grabbing and holding, but yes like Niiai said, decent not great. Gaunt spam is inferior to ork boy spam in every way, and most of the codex doesn’t hold well against good lists.
Zoanthropes work for some people (I am not a fan but I can see the appeal as leviathan).
Even Acid Tyranofex has worked for some comp players
Niiai wrote: You are looking at descent but not great.
Grab 2 exoshrine, and your choose of forge world monsters/hiveguards/zoanthropes. These are your offensive units.
Grab some gaunt chaff.
Grab 2 units of ripper swarms. 2 units of lictors. Use these to grab secondery objectives. Mawlocks and Pyro ores are optional here.
And build from there.
Rules are found in nid codex. And in blood of baal psykick awakening. Happy scoring.
Only tournament loss I've had was against pretty much this.
One thing the player did differently was he brought Swarmlord and a Flyrant in addition to the 2 Exos, 2 5man Zoans, lictors, etc.
The double move Flyrant threw me off pretty badly and he munched on a key character as a result. Then his Hormagants just screened me out completely from being able to drop threats to handle the Exos (big anti tank died to Exos t1 and Eradicators couldn't reach).
Tyranids are not bad at all in 9th. Fiancee' also plays this and wins most games she plays casually. Their only issue is they are extremely limited to a few core units they don't really have a choice to bring. If you want to bring a fluffy list of gants/carnfiexes/walkrant, you're not going to do to well to an average space marine list.
Bit of a random question, but has anyone had experience running Tyranids in Crusade games? I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to use due to a combination of 2 factors:
1. Crusade doesn't use reinforcement points, so Spawn Termagants and the three stratagems that create Genestealers, Spore Mines, and replacement infantry can be used with abandon.
2. The way before-the-battle stratagem upgrades are handled in Crusade allows for any number of units to be upgraded with Adaptive Physiologies provided enough requisition points are available and one is willing to eat the crusade point cost.
Are there any odd lists that may be immediately apparent?
Strat_N8 wrote: Bit of a random question, but has anyone had experience running Tyranids in Crusade games? I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to use due to a combination of 2 factors:
1. Crusade doesn't use reinforcement points, so Spawn Termagants and the three stratagems that create Genestealers, Spore Mines, and replacement infantry can be used with abandon.
2. The way before-the-battle stratagem upgrades are handled in Crusade allows for any number of units to be upgraded with Adaptive Physiologies provided enough requisition points are available and one is willing to eat the crusade point cost.
Are there any odd lists that may be immediately apparent?
I can’t help, but would also like to hear opinions. My son and I have been playing Crusade all of 9th, and as I grow my swarm, he’s mostly likely going to be my opponent, and will probably want to keep using his crusade list.
One thing that sticks out from reading here is that a lot of people suggest focusing on the secondaries and win conditions. You don’t have secondaries in crusades, just agendas that are for XP, not VP. So “play the mission” is going to be a lot rougher. Ironically, this plays into the narrative strength of nids. You are going to loose a lot of your early battles, but your units are going to get a lot of XP. They are going to evolve, and get stronger. And learn how best to defeat their prey.
Stacking the pre-game strats will boost your CP to pretty ridiculous levels. This is going to hand your opponent a lot of Command Points. Worth it? Probably.
You can hand out more warlord traits and relics then normal as well. This might open up some of the not-the-best ones that normally get passed over.
The battle traits should stack with everything (is there a cap on +/- for charge rolls like there is on to-hit?), and offer ways of getting re-rolls, extra move/charge range, resilience etc. The crusade relics would need to be re-skinned to something a little more bug-like, but could add some buffs to characters.
For summoning, the strats are going to burn a lot of command points for a basic unit. Might be nice in a pinch, but would those CP be better spent leveraging a experienced one? I do think they are something that should be kept in mind. With no caps on kicking out new units, Gaunt factory lists might be viable. Summoned units don’t gain XP, but if you are just flooding the table with chaff, could be nice. Just try to save any actions that would generate XP for the guys who get to keep it.
One thing to remember in crusade is to give the lesser used units a go!
Whilst that haruspex may not be cutting edge on the competitive scene, get a couple of xp upgrades on it and the thing becomes a killing machine!!
Secondly, remember that most of the advice on this forum is geared towards matched play, and as you point out, crusade's lack of secondaries REALLY changes the game and I feel it may be an idea to suggest a seperate tactics section for crusade/narrative rather than derailing this main thread? just a thought.
My experience so far has come down to... crusade is certainly the most fun way to play Nids, in fact while i started with kraken, after my first (and unfortunately only) 3 games i have decided to restart with a custom fleet all of my own.
Recommendations for units to try?
Haruspex
Walking Tyrants
TERVIGONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (seriously, these are kinda overpowered in crusade).
Spore mine clusters.(via the sporefield strat)
Lictors (for pheromone trailing units such as 3 pyrovores)
Some Tyranid special rules are not quite clear, so my gaming group has allowed me to buy physiologies for my units at 1 rp per unit when the unit is purchased (max 1 per unit) providing i do not buy any actual warlord traits.
I also personally use the rule that any units i buy from the same datasheet will be given the same physiology (representing the hive creating new strains of a species)
Crusade is by far the most fun I have had with my nids and I honestly cannot wait til we get our own crusade section in the codex (i am also hoping for a battlezone book featuring the ability to Tyrannoform the battlefield).
Yeah, big things here are warriors cheaper, devilgaunts cheaper and most importantly, my tfex and haruspex don't suffer an anuerism after dismbarking anymore.
The biggest thing is obviously the fix to the last turn scoring issue but i feel us nids have come out of this pretty well (our troop choices got a lot better in the main).
Tyran wrote: The devilgaunts are kinda ridiculous to the point I'm sure GW made a mistake there.
3 18" S4 shoots for 7pts? They are easily the best horde infantry in the game at this point.
As one who has fought orks through 8th and 9th edition boys are probably better. (And some flavor of SM.) Boys have around 80% change for a first turn charge. And they just keep coming and comming. And if you kill only 29 of they they come in with a green tide and charge you all over again.
I guess I never realised that 4-5 S6 attacks hitting on 4+, especially on a platform more expensive yet somehow less resilient than a Rhino, was the meta in 40k these days...
Maybe one day we'll have a fan on the team. I swear since I picked the army up it hasn't once played like it's described. Kudos to those who've embraced the theme of adaptation to find some jank that functions each time around.
I swear every book is thrown to someone who isn't passionate about them and is just giving the bugs enough rules to function.
I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.
I guess I never realised that 4-5 S6 attacks hitting on 4+, especially on a platform more expensive yet somehow less resilient than a Rhino, was the meta in 40k these days...
Carnifex is mostly unchanged.
One pair of scything talons became cheaper, but two pairs are more expensive.
I'm very happy with Warriors and Gaunts with devourer going down in points, also the Raveners and Tfexes!
But the Carnifex is in such in a sad states. Hope the future codex bring them up somewhat, ideally in buff and not point cost (I don't want garbage discount monsters, I'd prefer to pay more point for something scary on the tabletop).
Spoletta wrote: With the exception of space wolves, many codici have a section of upgrades purchaseable with points:
Marines have chapter commands
Death guards have plagues
Blood Angles have Death Company
Dark Angels have (probably) Deathwing initiation.
I'm really hoping that adaptations become purchaseable with points.
Not going to argue that it wouldn’t be nice. Although you’d run the risk of things being either auto-take upgrades or just inflate the points on something that’s already overpriced. GW does seem to be moving away from pre-game CP upgrades into point costs, so there is hope.
The chapter command equivalent is already covered in our named characters. Want a special tyrant/carnafex/lictor? Take the named one. Similar set up to the SW, where all their special guys have models. So I could see GW dusting their hands off and giving is a “Close enough, done"
While Carnifexes going up in price is annoying, I look at some of the changes coming to Death Guard and am optimistic that we'll get a similar treatment. Multiple attack profiles and innate damage reduction would take the Carnifex from weak to very strong with no other changes.
Anyways, in the short-term I think Devourers are worth sprinkling into any Termagant unit. They're now cheap enough that you might as well take half Devourers and half Fleshborers, just to get some bonus firepower without turning a meatshield unit into an expensive one.
Warriors getting a points drop is real nice. I'm still not sure if the bare-bones double Scything Talon build is actually worth using just on account of lack of offensive utility (if you've had success with them, please share!), but taking just Deathspitters and no other upgrades seems viable- at a mere 23pts, that's spammable and makes a great anti-heavy-infantry counterpart to the new and improved Devilgants' chaff-clearing.
Edit: Actually, I wonder if taking just Boneswords has a role. 20pts for that melee profile is not bad at all.
I'm tempering all 9th expectations but will admit the first wave of codexes does look promising. Super interested to see how they approach DE as the first non Astartes/faction known for it's resilience.
catbarf wrote: While Carnifexes going up in price is annoying, I look at some of the changes coming to Death Guard and am optimistic that we'll get a similar treatment. Multiple attack profiles and innate damage reduction would take the Carnifex from weak to very strong with no other changes.
Anyways, in the short-term I think Devourers are worth sprinkling into any Termagant unit. They're now cheap enough that you might as well take half Devourers and half Fleshborers, just to get some bonus firepower without turning a meatshield unit into an expensive one.
Warriors getting a points drop is real nice. I'm still not sure if the bare-bones double Scything Talon build is actually worth using just on account of lack of offensive utility (if you've had success with them, please share!), but taking just Deathspitters and no other upgrades seems viable- at a mere 23pts, that's spammable and makes a great anti-heavy-infantry counterpart to the new and improved Devilgants' chaff-clearing.
Edit: Actually, I wonder if taking just Boneswords has a role. 20pts for that melee profile is not bad at all.
I am also tempted to try out the 20 pt "pair of boneswords + nothing else" warrior loadout. 5 of them just cost 100 points. If you compare to basic termagaunts, you get only 20 termas, meaning only 5 more wounds than the 5 warriors with boneswords, who have a total of 20 attacks with ap2. If you have 5 points left you can even give them adrenal glands
Deathspitters don't do anything if you don't pay for a prime (and dedicate an HQ slot), and I don't want to pay for the prime.
That is not a bad deal. I like the warrior idea. If you are leviathan they even have 6+++. I would also ask you to consider a custom fleet that gives scything tallons ap1. With 2 scything tallons you get and ekstra attack and you re-roll 1's.
Did the carnifex get increased in price? As far as I can see it lost the 2x scythe discount.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is not a bad deal. I like the warrior idea. If you are leviathan they even have 6+++. I would also ask you to consider a custom fleet that gives scything tallons ap1. With 2 scything tallons you get and ekstra attack and you re-roll 1's.
Did the carnifex get increased in price? As far as I can see it lost the 2x scythe discount.
Tyran wrote: As I said above, two pairs of talons got more expensive, but one pair got cheaper.
So depends how you run them.
As for devilgants, IMHO at 7ppm they are auto-take.
They would be auto include if warriors didn't go down 4 ppm. I really like both troop choices now, and theoryhammer can't help me choose between them. Practice surely will. Don't know who will want jean stealers now. hormas and rippers will always have their own thing. IMHO we have 4 really good troop options, with warriors and devilgaunts rising somewhat above the rest
I fear the range issue for devilgaunts in practise, while warriors are so cheap now I think you can just throw them somewhere on the table and not care if they die, because they will only die to something much more expensive, and I see many favorable trades.
We will see gg GW
addnid wrote: Deathspitters don't do anything if you don't pay for a prime (and dedicate an HQ slot), and I don't want to pay for the prime.
I think that's a bit harsh. 9 Warriors with just Deathspitters shoot about as well as 6 + a Prime while costing less and having three extra wounds. I see the Prime as a force multiplier for larger broods, but for smaller ones the loss in firepower isn't enormous.
Just mathing it out, a Warrior with a Deathspitter and nothing else now outshoots an Intercessor, point for point, even in Tactical doctrine, and without taking Adaptive Physiology into account. I'm not sure if MSU cheap ranged Warriors would really be an optimal use of points, but it's an option.
Comparing a 5-strong squad to Termagants, 23 of them to be precise, you've got about 2/3 the wounds but better Sv and T, are vulnerable to multi-damage but don't have to worry about Blast, same ave number of hits in melee but higher S, 15 shots at 24"/S5/AP-1 versus 23 shots at 12"/S4/AP-, and Synapse. I'd say Warriors have the edge if it weren't for the fact that multi-damage weapons always seem to home in on my Warriors and eat them alive.
Warriors can be very survivable. Before the points drop in the FAQ, my group was testing running them in two groups of 9, with a Prime behind each one. Each warrior group had deathspitters and rending claws, were Jomungandr for the (almost)always +1 save, and Enhanced Resistance adaptive physiology. Along with Catalyst and Unyielding Chitin stratagem, they are nearly impossible to shift, and put out a decent amount of damage in both the shooting and fight phases.
With the -4 points they just got, I expect this combination to be even more potent on the table.
CommunistNapkin wrote: Warriors can be very survivable. Before the points drop in the FAQ, my group was testing running them in two groups of 9, with a Prime behind each one. Each warrior group had deathspitters and rending claws, were Jomungandr for the (almost)always +1 save, and Enhanced Resistance adaptive physiology. Along with Catalyst and Unyielding Chitin stratagem, they are nearly impossible to shift, and put out a decent amount of damage in both the shooting and fight phases.
With the -4 points they just got, I expect this combination to be even more potent on the table.
They have no real damage output and are plain overcosted for this role.
I'd probably take 54 points and 2 Lictors for Deploy Scramblers in my Force of the Hive Mind lists rather than going heavy on mediocre units like Warriors when FW offers greatness for a fair price (in game points at least)
Eldarain wrote: I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.
I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.
Eldarain wrote: I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.
I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.
If it's something we both agree wholeheartedly, it means it's damn true considering that we have disagreed on pretty much everything in the past
I feel like competing at the highest level is now restricted to scoring tricks, which was an option past codex too. Other than that Horde Nids is significantly worse, genestealers are a joke, flyrants are overpriced, and even I woudnt want to try make Nidzilla work right now.
That’s with the exception of the FW stuff. I think with FW Nids are one of the strongest armies in the game. Which is a measure of how mediocre the book itself is. To put it gently.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I feel like competing at the highest level is now restricted to scoring tricks, which was an option past codex too. Other than that Horde Nids is significantly worse, genestealers are a joke, flyrants are overpriced, and even I woudnt want to try make Nidzilla work right now.
That’s with the exception of the FW stuff. I think with FW Nids are one of the strongest armies in the game. Which is a measure of how mediocre the book itself is. To put it gently.
triple dima + a hierodule needs the scoring tricks to fully work. Using the forgeworld nidzilla without them is very risky. My best triple dima lists still had 3 ripper swarms, 2 lictors, and some basic termagaunts to screen parts of the board to deny deepstriking enemy units from arriving in some areas of the board.
In fact the dimas' biggest use (from my games with them) was forcing the opponent to deal with them and let my scoring tricks get carried out. Because they don't always kill their target (stuff with an invu which is at least 4++ mostly). But even then, a savy nid player can get ahead on scoring while the opponents get rif of the dima who failed.
Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Concerning the new FAQ I can't see any point costs for Spine Banks. Does that mean the Spinebanks points I have to pay additionally for the Tervigon base costs are unchanged?
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah
Max Jet wrote: Concerning the new FAQ I can't see any point costs for Spine Banks. Does that mean the Spinebanks points I have to pay additionally for the Tervigon base costs are unchanged?
If there are no point costs, they are considered free.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah
Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads
You could probably sub Dimas for Flyrants and play the same list and slowly swap out.
This is a really interesting point.
Dimas are amazing, that's not a surprise to anyone. Flyrants are considered sub par.
When comparing them 1:1 as I'm sure a lot more people own Flyrants than Dimas, how close are they?
Statline wise they're more similar than you think at a first glance.
Dima 230 Points - M12'' | WS3+ | BS3+ | S7 | T7 | W18 | A6 | Ld 8 | Sv3+/5++/5+++* - Has a conditional FNP, Re-rolls hits with his main weapon.
Flyrant - 215Points - M16'' | WS2+ | BS3+ | S6 | T7 | W12 | A4 | Ld 10 | Sv3+/4++ - This loadout has Wings, Deathspitters, Rending claws, AG and TS. Re-rolls wounds with its main melee weapon.
So to compare how durable they are you have T7 vs T7, identical. 18W vs 12W, Dima favoured. 3+ vs 3+ identical. 5++ vs 4++ Flyrant favoured. Conditional 5+++ vs Catalyst if you take it, even. Pretty damn equal with the Flyrant feeling the pain of Mortal Wounds a little more.
Melee damage output. Dima has a S8, AP-3, D3+3D, RR hits and an additional attack with S7, AP-3, 2D and then a special rule making a model add a D6 to its Str and if it's less than 7 it takes D6 mortal wounds
Melee damage output. Flyrant has a S7, AP-3, D3D. RR wounds, rolls of 6 are AP-6 and 3D and an additional attack of S7, AP0, D3D. With TS, any 6s also inflict 1D you can also take Maw Claws of Thyrax for RR Hits after your first kill or Xenogenic Acid for a Mortal Wound on a 5+.
I'd say Melee is Dima favoured but it's not a landslide, unlike the next two categories.
Ranged damage output. Dima - None. Flyrant, Deathspitters seem like the best all round option but all 3 main options are 20 points, simply pick which one you think fits best.
Ranged is a landslide for the Flyrant.
Psychic output. Dima - None. Flyrant, oh boy, want to buff yourself or your troops? Catalyst. Want to debuff that unit of Eradicators, The Horror. Want to just dishout as many wounds as possible in every phase to deal with C'tan and Ghaz, Psychic Scream and Smite.
Landslide for the Flyrant again.
For slightly less points you get a faster, slightly less durable, slightly less lethal in close combat but far more customisable, shooty, pshycicy, synapse, SITW unit that can DS
Whether you consider it being a HQ choice a downside or an upside is whether you think taking Malanthropes/Neurothropes are a tax or a boon.
I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?
I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?
Definitely under-used. They were just buffed, wings went from 45 points to 30 points.
I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?
I think the biggest issue for them in 9th is how badly they bleed secondary points between Bring It Down/Assassinate and Abhor the Witch. The errata helped a bit in this regard, but going from 8 victory points each to 5 victory points each is still a bit rough. There was also the fly nerf which made the gun configuration not quite as good since they can't fall out of combat and fire to full effect (admittedly they can shoot whatever they are engaged with, but odds are there are better things to shoot or whatever is in combat is something that will in all likelihood kill the Tyrant).
There is also the concern that they tend to operate within 18'' so they are very vulnerable to melta weapons.
I suppose in my own case my main complaint is that they just feel very bland right now. Each is basically a combat unit that doesn't do much of anything for the army, compared to the force multiplication the other HQs offer (and Tyrant's used to offer - I miss the Old Adversary, Indescribable Horror, and Hive Commander abilities and the old Tyrant-exclusive version of Paroxysm that both weakened the opponent and "fixed" our weapon skill issues).
I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop, but Flyrant spam is one of the big reasons the Rule of 3 was created in the first place. Has that changed a lot since 9th dropped?
When rule of 3 was created Flyrants were nerfed like 4 ways at the exact same, and have been steadily tuned down multiple times since, and the game has become less and less practical for the type of unit. So if you’re asking has a lot changed in 9th since going all the way back to the start of 8th Ed - yes, tons.
I think the biggest issue for them in 9th is how badly they bleed secondary points between Bring It Down/Assassinate and Abhor the Witch. The errata helped a bit in this regard, but going from 8 victory points each to 5 victory points each is still a bit rough.
Do you know what section that is in the errata? Trying to wrap my head around everything in those changes for a game this weekend.
So to compare how durable they are you have T7 vs T7, identical. 18W vs 12W, Dima favoured. 3+ vs 3+ identical. 5++ vs 4++ Flyrant favoured. Conditional 5+++ vs Catalyst if you take it, even. Pretty damn equal with the Flyrant feeling the pain of Mortal Wounds a little more.
Even BEFORE the FNP, Flyrant is less tanky against literally everything, including AP2 or higher weaponry which is the only place the invul is relevant. And since you're playing Nidzilla those weapons are stretched thin anyway. Against any other weaponry including most psyker powers and bolt weapons, the Dima is significantly tougher. And that's all assuming it has no FNP. I wouldn't say this is pretty damn equal at all.
I'd say Melee is Dima favoured but it's not a landslide, unlike the next two categories.
The Dima wins by an absolute landslide. His weapon is higher strength (a very relevant strength tier increase at 7->8 too), it does more than DOUBLE the damage of the Flyrant, and even with 1 less BS he hits more times than the Flyrant anyway since he has half as many attacks again on top of what the Flyrant has. His tail weapon is significantly better, and his mortal wound ability also gives out free wounds on top of this.
In your breakdown, only ONE Flyrant can take Maw Claws of Thyrax and it's costing a CP at the very least to do so since it's far from the best relic available, and it still doesn't contest the Dima. Seriously run the numbers here vs different targets. Dima wins by a massive amount.
Disagree. Percentage wise anything vs nothing is a landslide. Practically, that single Tyranid monster gun at BS3 with no re-rolls isn't doing much at all.
Flyrant's only significant advantage is being a lvl 2 psyker, which you have Swarmlord / Neurothrope for anyway. Flyrant's aren't AWFUL or anything - but they just don't hold a candle to the new FW models. That's not uncommon, it's the same story for the rest of the dex. Only Exocrine comes close but is still definitely worse.
Mmm yeah okay. I just did the maths against T4 - T8 / 2+/3+/4+/3++/4++/5++
Flyrant with no relic, Rending Claws, Deathspitters, TS, Smite and Psychic Scream all hitting the same target vs a Dima dumping everything into the one target equated to the Dima doing an average of 1.4x more wounds to the target. It did more damage to every target except T5 - T7 3++ when they were both averaged out to the same point values.
I also didn't add the Dima's swallow ability which would obviously clinch this further in its favour.
Edit: Actually only 1.2 more on average, I forgot to add in the re-rolls to wound for the Rending Claws and the AP-6 / 3D on 6s. Still, I wasn't factoring in Deny the Witch, only failed tests. So still not super realistic to get off all that crap compared to the Dima just smacking. The Flyrant does outperform at T4 - T8 now though against 3++ and T5 - T6 against a 4++. The biggest differences though are T7-T8 2+ - 4+ where the Dima is almost 50% more lethal.
Yeah that sounds about right. You could probably marh in the gun there too but honestly it’s probably not even worth the effort it’s barely gonna change those numbers by a decimal I think
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m torn on whether to go for another Hierodule and triple Dima or just wait for god knows how long for a new codex. Which even then possibly won’t have better options than Dima/Hierodule for comp Nidzilla
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah
Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads
Fair enough. Back to the dima vs flyrant, the dimas' spine maws do weigh into the balance when you charge stuff like harlequins or battle sisters, because the combination of MWs and 5+++ gain is huge. When you run triple dima it goes off a lot, whereas poor flyrant is a lvl2 psycher. After a few games, i must say I prefer spine maws to lvl2 psycher, incredibly enough.
Also dima will murder tougness 7 and 8 stuff whereas a flyrant will struggle, even with the murderous size adaptation.
I do think super flyrant (behemoth relic and all the stuff) holds its own against a dima but why would anyone play behemoth ? Not enough incentive.
we do need psychers for catalist and onslaught (psy scream also) as well so some lists will need a hive tyrant for the two psy powers, but in that case sending a brawling tyrant out for a favorable trade is not the best, hence why neuros are more reliable for casting throughout the game.
Thanks for the clarification guys. I don't use Flyrants much personally so hadn't been tracking on their status.
Nitro- At a two codices/month pace, all the 9th Ed codices should be arriving by fall of this year. Figure raw averages say 4-5 months out for us. Personally I'd wait on the codex but YMMV.
Eldarain wrote: I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.
I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.
The book is more than 3 years old at this point, it is an early 8th edition book after all. Back then it was the best the Tyranids have been since 4th ed.
Now it has been left behind by 9th edition books, but the same applies to pretty much all 8th edition books. I mean, you don't see Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar or Tau dominate tournaments anymore.
And even then I would argue it has aged more gracefully than the 5th and 6th ed books ever did. It was impossible to play the 6th ed book after the Decurion books hit the field in the second half of 7th.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Why not post it in the list section ? It is easier to find there. Otherwise yeah my last two lists I used against sisters and custodes also featured about the same troop points and same 2 lictors, perhaps our lists look a lot alike hah hah
Mainly because I don’t really give a gak about feedback from most the people who comment on there who generally don’t really seem to know what they are talking about and are just responding to the top thread, and I also mostly posted it in here to share my thoughts with you guys because I like discussing the game with you guys, since agree or disagree I know most of you are Nid players with years of experience. I just don’t really find Dakka to be a very productive place outside of certain threads
Fair enough. Back to the dima vs flyrant, the dimas' spine maws do weigh into the balance when you charge stuff like harlequins or battle sisters, because the combination of MWs and 5+++ gain is huge. When you run triple dima it goes off a lot, whereas poor flyrant is a lvl2 psycher. After a few games, i must say I prefer spine maws to lvl2 psycher, incredibly enough.
Also dima will murder tougness 7 and 8 stuff whereas a flyrant will struggle, even with the murderous size adaptation.
I do think super flyrant (behemoth relic and all the stuff) holds its own against a dima but why would anyone play behemoth ? Not enough incentive.
we do need psychers for catalist and onslaught (psy scream also) as well so some lists will need a hive tyrant for the two psy powers, but in that case sending a brawling tyrant out for a favorable trade is not the best, hence why neuros are more reliable for casting throughout the game.
Agreed on all accounts. I think Swarmlord and a Neurothrope are enough to hold down the essentials, which for me is the same three powers in the same order of importance - Onslaught, then Catalyst and Psychic Scream. Subbing psychic scream out for Paroxysm, The Horror or even the Kraken power depending on the match up.
I’m realising in hindsight you were probably asking me to link that list, so here it is. Trade out Termagants for Rippers as desired:
Eldarain wrote: I had to explain to a friend who was complaining about how weak we were after starting them in 8th that it was the best book in at least 3 editions. Which was sad.
I disagree with this. Nids are a good army because of the FW stuff but outside of that, the book itself is probably the worst it's been in a while I think.
The book is more than 3 years old at this point, it is an early 8th edition book after all. Back then it was the best the Tyranids have been since 4th ed.
Now it has been left behind by 9th edition books, but the same applies to pretty much all 8th edition books. I mean, you don't see Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar or Tau dominate tournaments anymore.
And even then I would argue it has aged more gracefully than the 5th and 6th ed books ever did. It was impossible to play the 6th ed book after the Decurion books hit the field in the second half of 7th.
All fair points and you’re completely right, around release it was the best written dex we’d had since, well since I started playing.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yup all that is exactly what I’m saying. The FW Nidzilla list I posted a few pages ago had two lictors and like 300 pts of troops. It’s still Tyranids after all. But the FW stuff is what makes the book playable.
Agreed on all accounts. I think Swarmlord and a Neurothrope are enough to hold down the essentials, which for me is the same three powers in the same order of importance - Onslaught, then Catalyst and Psychic Scream. Subbing psychic scream out for Paroxysm, The Horror or even the Kraken power depending on the match up.
I’m realising in hindsight you were probably asking me to link that list, so here it is. Trade out Termagants for Rippers as desired:
All fair points and you’re completely right, around release it was the best written dex we’d had since, well since I started playing.
Good stuff ! termagants spread out better than rippers for the manlanthrope bubble, so I would go 21*2 termas + 3*1 rippers instead of 5*10 termas like you, even though both troop set ups have their own merit.
2 scythed hierodules work great I think, even though initially I was afraid of terrain issues. Turns out they get across just fine if you plan ahead and send the dimas meleeing where the hierodule can't go meleeing. The 3d6 flamer is also a lot more useful than I would have thought thanks to the 18 range. Acidfex has no play at all because of scythed, even with its point reduction
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever
Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee.
Yeah, Fly on the Dima makes it an interesting possibility but I just think the numbers on a dermic Hierodule are just that much better that it's worth playing around any problems with mobility. With Onslaught and Kraken strat and Swarmlord buff you can get to be Hierodule is lightning fast now anyway, with like average 46"-48" move before charging, I think he will be able to get to where he needs to get to, and both of them probably wanted to be supported with things that chew up chaff anyway. The flamer alone makes me say screw fly anyway lol and the rest of his damage output is so much heavier too. Just a beast.
Nitro Zeus wrote:
catbarf wrote: I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.
This. With the new knowledge in the past couple of pages that Dima's are S7/T7, the flying movement, the fact that they don't need an adaptation at all for 5++, the fact that they can gain a FNP, and the mortal Wound combustions at the end of fight phase, and the fact that they are hitting most things just as hard, there's a really good case for Dima's being the better pick.
However, the flip side of the coin is that being better against T8 might still just be enough to make Hierodules better, considering how little other (good) options we have for dealing with T8.
I want to say btw, that at these new price points, Scythed Hierodule is basically just a way better version of an Acid Spray Tyrannofex, and Barbed Hierodule is a better version of Hive Guard, that cover both the same roles but also add a ton of brawling potential and high toughness saturation (and make great recipients of Dermic buffs too, our best adaptation, to further improve on that). Yeah, both those units still have a few of their own merits, but you need to have a VERY good reason to be picking them over the Dule's at this point imo.
Imo, both of the Dules and the Dima are very evenly balanced and I think all have a place and there's no "right" answer. I think Scythed Hierodule is probably the most well rounded, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best pick or most efficient. If you want melee brawling I think the Dima wins out.
One thing I wanna mention is that you noted Custodes and SM as poor match ups back then, I actually feel like Elite match ups are better for them and it’s stuff like Orks and Tyranids ironically, where our 5 offensive models just don’t have the dice to bring down enough scoring, especially when one or two of them die. I don’t think Custodes or SM are a problem anything you touch vs them dies.
Hah hah yep my theoryhammer for 9th so far has been wrong on many accounts. I try not to do too much of it now
Custodes is easy to beat with nids, turns out.
And generally, after playing a few games with nids, I realised how good they are against elite armies, and that we could win even if our big stuff hypothèse slaughtered.
I think it is very hard to beat comp white scar army lists though, but again, theoryhammer on white scars.
Nitro did you try pyrovores out (instead of some of the termas) ? I did and the large base is pretty neat to deny stuff, and they are so cheap they can even sometimes kill their points worth. Not had an issue with them Not being on sec
The biggest issue with pyroes is their cost. I had mine 3D printed. Not a good mold as the same leg broke on all 3. But they are fine.
Pyroes are good for MSU on objectives. And the 10" flame is good as well. 4 wounds.only 28 points. Outflank some for CP.
Did I mention they have a good chance to deal MW if they kill them in melee?
I like them. They are not the backbone of the army, but feel free to experiment with them.
I've some of their arms and they are well made resin parts
*Honestly I think the pyrovore was going to be the new biovore and someone said "hey why don't we make it a flamethrower". Because when you consider that its supposed to be a close combat unit it doesn't really "look" like a close combat weapon design. It has a long accurate barrel better suited to firing sports; meanwhile the actual biovore has a tiny barrel far more suited to spewing flame in close quarters
addnid wrote: Hah hah yep my theoryhammer for 9th so far has been wrong on many accounts. I try not to do too much of it now
Custodes is easy to beat with nids, turns out.
And generally, after playing a few games with nids, I realised how good they are against elite armies, and that we could win even if our big stuff hypothèse slaughtered.
I think it is very hard to beat comp white scar army lists though, but again, theoryhammer on white scars.
Nitro did you try pyrovores out (instead of some of the termas) ? I did and the large base is pretty neat to deny stuff, and they are so cheap they can even sometimes kill their points worth. Not had an issue with them Not being on sec
I actually haven’t tried them out but they look very playable. My initial thoughts for supporting a Nidzilla army was as much obsec bodies as possible as every other edition, I’ve found that to be the key thing you need to support them. Plus a couple of Lictors for specific objective play. Just dedicated scoring so that you have the best chance of taking as much as possible.
Another overlooked thing is that Nidzilla army is so damn fast, has a lot of fly, and also falls back out of combat for free. You can basically direct your strength where you need to and just engage parts of the opponents army at a time and just remove their ability to take certain objectives. Takes practice on knowing how much you need where tho.
I've used pyrovores alot and to some good success.
They obvioulsy wont win the game by themselves, but since it only costs 1CP to outflank 9 of them and they are an infantry unit thats good at killing other infantry units, they usually always are worth their points.
Theres 2 ways to run them. Either in a kraken detachment as a flanking/ second wave/midfield unit or as an outflanking unit in any tyranid force that can be used for secondaries or point denial.
They make it very easy to get actions done, as they are cheap enough you dont feel like your wasting points, and they are very effective at getting rid of smallish units that are holding objectives near the side of the board.
You also get that weird once in 32 games moment where a player charges a unit with some uber character and you activate Acid blood on them and tell him how he could now take up to 27 mortal wounds for killing your 84pt unit.
Eihnlazer wrote: I've used pyrovores alot and to some good success.
They obvioulsy wont win the game by themselves, but since it only costs 1CP to outflank 9 of them and they are an infantry unit thats good at killing other infantry units, they usually always are worth their points.
Theres 2 ways to run them. Either in a kraken detachment as a flanking/ second wave/midfield unit or as an outflanking unit in any tyranid force that can be used for secondaries or point denial.
They make it very easy to get actions done, as they are cheap enough you dont feel like your wasting points, and they are very effective at getting rid of smallish units that are holding objectives near the side of the board.
You also get that weird once in 32 games moment where a player charges a unit with some uber character and you activate Acid blood on them and tell him how he could now take up to 27 mortal wounds for killing your 84pt unit.
Yeah the double whammy of acid blood and volatile backed in makes it an excelent melee uit. They have to shoot it. If you have a unit of 3 overwtach is quite bad.
What I do not like with the outflank is that they can not go wherever you want. But it plays well into the 'current' list with shooting and other deep strikers.
You spread three barbed heirodules out and shoot him with +1d on one. You also smite him with zoanthropes.
on average though a single barbed only gets 1 shot through his defence's which is either gonna deal 1 damage or 2 damage. Pretty bad.
6 zoans do end up dealing him about 3.5 damage with a smite though. 3 squads of those plus a psychic scream do about 11ish damage to him. That is enough to slow him down and make him dead by turn 2.
My TTS list isnt all that scared of him.
Big bugs do not like him though. In a kraken list all you can do is charge him with 20 stealers and a swarmlord after dealing him a few mortal wounds in the psychic phase. Double attacking with 20 stealers does a good chunk of damage to him if he goes for the swarmy first, and if he doesnt he gets hit decently by him.
I've math hammered the FW monsters against him and it's not looking good for us.
T8 18W 3+/4++/5+++ -1 to hit / -1 to damage / disables re-rolls in cc / disables auras nearby (RIP Synapse)
He also hits like a truck, he'll wipe anything short of a Hierodule out in one turn and even they only just survive even with Dermic Symbiosis
Well for starters don’t let him get off Miasma for free if you can help it. SitW and/or Kronos stuff helps here.
Scoring Nids should just bog him down he does nothing if he fall backs. In Nidzilla, Two Dermic Hierodules will win combat vs him for less pts. Assuming no Miasma, that does make it harder. He’s good, but eh he should be good. Just play reactively and smart vs him and I think you’ll be able to get the upper hand, he’s a big chunk of points that can VERY easily end up doing next to nothing vs us.
I will wait and see, but having such stuff in regular 40k, for not too many points (other LoW in that weight class cost around 600-650 points) can create a bit of "feel bad" tension between new players.
I don't think we will have absolutely terrible issues with him (other stuff in the codex seems very strong too, I don't think he will be auto include for DG players).
Except for dima builds (losing the to hit rerolls will be nasty).
I do think however that he will be slightly problematic when the DG player will spike with good save rolls, and we end up doing next to nothing to him when throwing 1/3 of our army on him.
And no, you can't ignore him at all, else he will get twice his points back in 3 turns EZ.
But I am very curious to see how many comp list actually field him (perhaps I am wrong and he will be completely auto include, hard to say really).
Nitro Zeus wrote: Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.
The death guard player, if he knows what he is doing, will keep models close to morty’s base (but perhaps the rest of the DG army is too slow to keep up with morty), bubble wrapping of sorts, to make it impossible for us to get three dimas (perhaps even two) into melee. Perhaps an exocrine or our smites or hive guards would be able to clear a path for all three dimas, I don’t know, theoryhammer can’t solve this (I think I just did an MChammer reference without even trying to hah hah)
So perhaps you are correct Nitro Zeus, practice will say
Nitro Zeus wrote: Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.
Can they?
If he gets Miasma off, they do 2 wounds each. If he doesn't get Miasma off, they do 2.7 wounds each. Even with Adrenaline Surge and no Miasma, three of them do 10.8 wounds and that's the absolute dream scenario that you're probably not getting off.
Scythed Hierodules don't fair much better doing 2.7 wounds if he is Miasma'd and 3.6 wounds if he isn't. If he takes the WL trait that makes 4+ needed to wound, he can reduce the Hierodule's output even further. Two Hierodules hitting first with Adrenaline Surge are only doing 10.8 wounds, so better than the Dimas but still a struggle.
-1 to hit / -1 to wound damage / T8 / 3+/4++/5+++ / disabling auras and re-rolls with a few other knick knacks he can look at adding like halving movement / only being wounded on a 4+ and disabling AP-1/-2, disgusting. He can also up himself to T9 which makes Dimas even more hopeless.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.
Can they?
If he gets Miasma off, they do 2 wounds each. If he doesn't get Miasma off, they do 2.7 wounds each. Even with Adrenaline Surge and no Miasma, three of them do 10.8 wounds and that's the absolute dream scenario that you're probably not getting off.
Scythed Hierodules don't fair much better doing 2.7 wounds if he is Miasma'd and 3.6 wounds if he isn't. If he takes the WL trait that makes 4+ needed to wound, he can reduce the Hierodule's output even further. Two Hierodules hitting first with Adrenaline Surge are only doing 10.8 wounds, so better than the Dimas but still a struggle.
-1 to hit / -1 to wound damage / T8 / 3+/4++/5+++ / disabling auras and re-rolls with a few other knick knacks he can look at adding like halving movement / only being wounded on a 4+ and disabling AP-1/-2, disgusting. He can also up himself to T9 which makes Dimas even more hopeless.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.
The death guard player, if he knows what he is doing, will keep models close to morty’s base (but perhaps the rest of the DG army is too slow to keep up with morty), bubble wrapping of sorts, to make it impossible for us to get three dimas (perhaps even two) into melee. Perhaps an exocrine or our smites or hive guards would be able to clear a path for all three dimas, I don’t know, theoryhammer can’t solve this (I think I just did an MChammer reference without even trying to hah hah) So perhaps you are correct Nitro Zeus, practice will say
Fully agree. Math doesn't tell the whole story, practice will tell! It's definitely not hopeless for our good builds at least though, he's much scarier for some other armies I think.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Three Dimas can beat him in CC for not too much more points than what he cost, and only one of em dying. Just saying.
Can they?
If he gets Miasma off, they do 2 wounds each. If he doesn't get Miasma off, they do 2.7 wounds each. Even with Adrenaline Surge and no Miasma, three of them do 10.8 wounds and that's the absolute dream scenario that you're probably not getting off.
Scythed Hierodules don't fair much better doing 2.7 wounds if he is Miasma'd and 3.6 wounds if he isn't. If he takes the WL trait that makes 4+ needed to wound, he can reduce the Hierodule's output even further. Two Hierodules hitting first with Adrenaline Surge are only doing 10.8 wounds, so better than the Dimas but still a struggle.
-1 to hit / -1 to wound damage / T8 / 3+/4++/5+++ / disabling auras and re-rolls with a few other knick knacks he can look at adding like halving movement / only being wounded on a 4+ and disabling AP-1/-2, disgusting. He can also up himself to T9 which makes Dimas even more hopeless.
I mean even with Miasma, your calcs still leave Morty nearly dead by the time your turn rolls back around with him having only done 230 pts or so damage, and him definitely dead without doing anymore damage by the end of your turn thanks to Kraken. Those numbers really aren't that bad or at all unfair. He costs 1/4 their army in one model, he shouldnt be getting killed in a single turn.
Upping himself to T9 is admittedly something that I had overlooked and yeah he totally can do that! Still only impacts Hierodules though and they were the better option of the two, that just puts them on the level of Dimas and comes at the cost of a different Warlord power at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Morty is a good unit that much is clear. But he's not particularly good against our scoring/denial lists which can easily give him blue balls and would be 500 pts of Death Guard better spent in bodies, He's better vs our brawling lists but we are at least capable of brawling him reasonably cost efficiently, there's only ever gonna be one of him, and because of our speed vs Death Guards we can direct more resources to that fight than he will be able to in most cases. And there's things the Death Guard player can do to leverage their strengths as an army too, so it will come down to the skill of the players and the flow of that particular game imo. So that's my thoughts on Morty. Strong unit, as he should be. But nothing to panic about!
Upping himself to T9 is admittedly something that I had overlooked and yeah he totally can do that! Still only impacts Hierodules though and they were the better option of the two, that just puts them on the level of Dimas and comes at the cost of a different Warlord power at least.
I think I was wrong there. He gets his 3 default WL traits from the main WL trait tree and then gets to pick 1 from the 7 Plague Companies. So he won't get to pick the +1 Toughness I think
Well that’s a relief at least. Hierodules should mince him if he doesn’t have Miasma up, tho it’s a bit hairier if he does, but I think even if he kills 2 full MCs before dropping we still come out ahead on points, tho a little more resources tied up unfortunately.
Man I cannot remember a time when flyrants weren't one of the strongest options, though I did skip 7th. I will always love my floor-waddler regardless.
Upping himself to T9 is admittedly something that I had overlooked and yeah he totally can do that! Still only impacts Hierodules though and they were the better option of the two, that just puts them on the level of Dimas and comes at the cost of a different Warlord power at least.
I think I was wrong there. He gets his 3 default WL traits from the main WL trait tree and then gets to pick 1 from the 7 Plague Companies. So he won't get to pick the +1 Toughness I think
Yep, he can't get either Rotten Constituion or Hulking Physique, so luckily he is "only" T8 18W 3+/4++/5+++ -1 damage.
I think that Morty is the first good target for spore mines
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: Man I cannot remember a time when flyrants weren't one of the strongest options, though I did skip 7th. I will always love my floor-waddler regardless.
Be careful with those tyrants.
If the DG codex is anything to go by, monstrous rending claws on tyrants are getting axed.
Monstrous rending claws on tyrants will no longer be an option in the next nid codex, that is 100% certain.
Which is completely logical, I mean when you think about why did we have codex options not included in the box ? It was stupid to have MRCs in the first place.
I love kitbashing stuff, so I will miss this, but if I am being honest I never understood why some kits would be sold with all options bar one or two of them... It just didn’t make sense to me.
addnid wrote: Monstrous rending claws on tyrants will no longer be an option in the next nid codex, that is 100% certain.
Which is completely logical, I mean when you think about why did we have codex options not included in the box ? It was stupid to have MRCs in the first place.
I love kitbashing stuff, so I will miss this, but if I am being honest I never understood why some kits would be sold with all options bar one or two of them... It just didn’t make sense to me.
We had them as an option because they came with the 3rd edition tyrant model. GW was trying to permit options from older models to still be valid.
But now they have Legends for that, so that's where it'll probably end up.
I’m worried that flyrants might loose one option spot for their wings, as that’s how the model is built. So it’s either shooty or stabby, but not both. GW is completely inconsistent, so who knows how things are going to fall out.
Took my nids out for a little crusade game for the first time. Came out with a victory! Still need to work on remembering all the rules and upgrades. And get more stuff painted.
Broodlord was my MVP. Psychic blasting was good, and he blends pretty well in CC. Bit soft when it comes to taking hits. I guess that balances.
addnid wrote: Monstrous rending claws on tyrants will no longer be an option in the next nid codex, that is 100% certain.
Which is completely logical, I mean when you think about why did we have codex options not included in the box ? It was stupid to have MRCs in the first place.
I love kitbashing stuff, so I will miss this, but if I am being honest I never understood why some kits would be sold with all options bar one or two of them... It just didn’t make sense to me.
We had them as an option because they came with the 3rd edition tyrant model. GW was trying to permit options from older models to still be valid.
But now they have Legends for that, so that's where it'll probably end up.
We also have them for the original forge world flying hive tyrant (still the best one IMO!). I'll be very sad if they take away MRC and I have to retire him.
Speaking of the dimachaeron, we bought my wife one and it's assembled now.
How is it in game over all? Any do's/don't in game? What would you (non-fw) run with it? Best model by far but stats make it look fairly squishy.
Another quick question, I saw this from a frontline article and was confused:
If going Kraken again, (I always end up to Kraken), a Dima and a Toxicrene work well together as Swarmy can Hive Commander the Toxicrene into a charge, the Dima can take Opportunistic Advance, and they can hit the same chaff wall together, unlikely to break it, but the Toxicrene can pop its strat to hold the unit in place, so both are safe for a turn before the Dima Falls back over the chaff and is free to charge. This is also a great way to try and get the Digestion Spine to trigger.
Is there a way the Dima can charge with OA that I'm unaware of? I don't know how both are going into combat.
MSU Warriors in paticular look good to me. The Big Bugs are awesome, as all of them are. I wonder if someone can build a list that does not use such expensive figures. Tabletop over the Internet is fine, but dang that is a lot of dollars in real-space!
Which Hive Fleet do you all favour for these FW Nidzilla lists.
Kraken, Jormungandr look like the best two to me. These are the only two I've tried multiple times in game for my dual Dimachaeron, Scythed + Barbed Hierodule list.
A custom one of Prey-sight and something like Metamorphic Regrowth may also be good although I'm not sold on Metamorphic Regrowth, it may come in clutch bumping something up a bracket in the damage chart but my experience is that the big FW bugs get focus fired, when an opponent targets one, they're killed to completion, not left to linger.
Prey-sight though means the Hierodules are hitting on 2s / rr1s on the charge, not much survives a charge so this is juicy. You could take Hypermetabolic Acceleration for a poor man's Kraken too.
Verthane wrote: We also have them for the original forge world flying hive tyrant (still the best one IMO!). I'll be very sad if they take away MRC and I have to retire him.
The FW flying Hive Tyrant had Scything Talons for its lower arm slots. At least, that's what came with mine- and I think the only GW/FW example of Rending Claws on a Hive Tyrant I've ever seen was in the 3rd Ed codex.
Even in the 3rd Ed codex, they were kind of a pointless take since the monstrous creature rules superseded them. Just a way to save on points, I guess. I can't recall if they were an option in 4th/5th but I definitely never saw them on the table. Honestly it's been odd to me that MRC was even an option in 8th; it's never been in a plastic kit and has only really been popular due to inexplicable rules discrepancy with Scything Talons.
Can you share a pic of yours? I'm curious about what you've got.
Verthane wrote: We also have them for the original forge world flying hive tyrant (still the best one IMO!). I'll be very sad if they take away MRC and I have to retire him.
The FW flying Hive Tyrant had Scything Talons for its lower arm slots. At least, that's what came with mine- and I think the only GW/FW example of Rending Claws on a Hive Tyrant I've ever seen was in the 3rd Ed codex.
Even in the 3rd Ed codex, they were kind of a pointless take since the monstrous creature rules superseded them. Just a way to save on points, I guess. I can't recall if they were an option in 4th/5th but I definitely never saw them on the table. Honestly it's been odd to me that MRC was even an option in 8th; it's never been in a plastic kit and has only really been popular due to inexplicable rules discrepancy with Scything Talons.
Can you share a pic of yours? I'm curious about what you've got.
I guess the rending claws being referred to on the FW tyrant model are the feet. They are claw like, rather than the hooves most nids have on their hind legs. But it's kind of the same as how people count the wings on the modern tyrant model as being MRC. In that it's a good enough 'counts as' to use in game, but it's still a slight stretch to call them that.
Consider that the FW tyrant also could be bought without wings, and that on-foot version with 2 upper arm weapons still had the claw feet.
The 3rd edition tyrant came with the same weapons sprue that used to come with Warrior kits. Which has a pair of rending claws. As you say, they were kind of a waste to use though.
Spoiler:
Prior to 8th, the weapon has been an option in the 3rd, 4th, and 6th edition codexes. Although not the 5th ed codex for some reason.
Ah, that's interesting. I've never heard or seen the feet being counted as Rending Claws. The wings on the FW Hive Tyrant are sculpted as Scything Talons with membrane stretched between the 'blades', so I've always seen the FW flying Tyrant played as having two sets of Scything Talons.
They honestly don't look much like claws to me. Yeah, they're splayed individual 'toes' rather than hooves, but that's how the feet were on the original 3rd Ed Tyrant (as you can see in that photo), along with a few other creatures from that era like the Scythed Hierodule.
That was the photo I was thinking of in the 3rd Ed codex. Wasn't a useful loadout (except to save points) but it sure looked cool.
I was surprised MRC was still an option for Tyrants in the current dex, the writing has been on the wall for a long time that option was going away. I can still use my lovely conversion counts-as for something else so nbd.
I suspect that the flyrant will get only one customizable slot with a mandatory melee weapon to represent the legs. Was also surprised that was not how it was when the model first hit, actually.
Hey guys, I'm interested in starting a tyranid army themed around Carnifexes running up the board and smashing through everything with some limited fire support from biovores. Got the idea from the Scythe of the Emperor book where a Phalanx of Carnifexes just smashes its way through everything. Just curious has anyone attempted a Carnifex Heavy army in 9th?
Thing is its role has changed as the army has evolved. In the past it was the second biggest model after the hive tyrant and the carny was basically our entire "tank like" force. So it had to do it all in one model. So it had good stats in general to achieve that.
As the army has gained a lot more models and a lot of bigger models with specific roles the carny has been left behind. It's no longer the big monster, instead its got the Exocrine, the Tervigone, the Tyranofex etc.... all taking old roles that the carny offered and specialising in those roles.
Now its shifted to a middleweight and works better in groups rather than alone. I think we've got to accept that unless GW rebuilds the rules and makes the bigger models so expensive that you might only take one in a 2K army; then the carny is going to be middle not top weight. And honestly I'm ok with that role for it, it can still be the toolbox its just a support toolbox that adds weight and adds numbers.
Overread wrote: Thing is its role has changed as the army has evolved. In the past it was the second biggest model after the hive tyrant and the carny was basically our entire "tank like" force. So it had to do it all in one model. So it had good stats in general to achieve that.
As the army has gained a lot more models and a lot of bigger models with specific roles the carny has been left behind. It's no longer the big monster, instead its got the Exocrine, the Tervigone, the Tyranofex etc.... all taking old roles that the carny offered and specialising in those roles.
Now its shifted to a middleweight and works better in groups rather than alone. I think we've got to accept that unless GW rebuilds the rules and makes the bigger models so expensive that you might only take one in a 2K army; then the carny is going to be middle not top weight. And honestly I'm ok with that role for it, it can still be the toolbox its just a support toolbox that adds weight and adds numbers.
Agreed
Back when you might have a tank or a dread as a big centerpiece, the carnefex was a match. But now we have primarchs and knights. Scale creep is not just little models from old editions, but the fact that the Big Bad end boss from the squad level roots of the game is now yard trash on the epic scale we have now.
I think especially with the new 9th edition stuff there is some serious codex creep going on. (Again). A lot of statlines are getting bumped up, and we’ve not had our turn yet. If similar things get applied to us, life will be good. Not that I’m holding my breath.
But the carny’s marine equivalent, the dreadnought, got a flat -1D on it to help make it tougher.
I don’t see our little gribbles going to 2W, but if genestealers did? It would help them.
DE look to get getting an extra attack across the board. The 8/9th changes of not longer getting extra attacks for chargeing/paired weapons hurt. Could be see something for us to help bring the stabbing back to the bigs?
/wishlisting
on topic.
Looking at the carnefex on paper, I think they are OK. Very flexible, nice options, look cool. With the upped lethality of a lot of stuff in the game, probably not that hard to take out. But if you saturate the table in big stuff, that might be less of an issue. But you’d need to make a skew list.
Getting a pair of them is on my to-buy list, once I paint more of the pile of shame. They are an iconic part of our army. Hopefully the next batch of rules will treat them well.
Well if you want something as durable as a tank, take a Tyrannofex.
Personally I would prefer improvements to our heavier monsters like Tyrannofexes regaining their old 2+ save and BS 3+, Toxicrenes getting shrouding spores, Haruspexes getting a lot of love because they really need it.
Hello tactically minded Tyranids. I have just posted a new written battle report you may enjoy against Mortarion and the new Death Guard codex. Find it here:
And a Rhino is an APC. I'd like for Carnifexes to be tougher than baseline APCs.
I agree - and they used to. Tyranid monsters in general need some love. How is a Mawloc only toughness 6? The model is HUGE.
I think the key question is does GW intend you to take1 Mawlock or 5 or 1 Mawlock and a host of other big monsters. Basically the fewer there are on the table the tougher they can be; the more of them there can be on the table the weaker they have to be to work.
The Trygon used to be a knight class monster from Forgeworld but its plastic variation got cheaper and cheaper and now its a much lesser creature in terms of power; but on the flipside you can put down several in an army with space for other stuff and without it being broken. So I figure that's the way we are headed; weaker monsters but ones we can have far more of within an army in general to make up for it.
It might well leave room for the Carny to be smaller, weaker and cheaper so we can spam masses of them; and then if you want something that hits like a tank you take a hauxspex (or however its spelt).
Honestly I'd be fine with my monsters being weaker than their tank/dreadnought counterparts but in exchange if my carnifex is only as good as 75% of a Dreadnought it should only cost 75% of a dreadnought or however you want to break it down.
I like Tyranids as a swarm army no matter how they're played, but give us the capability to properly represent the tyranid capacity to adapt. I love the adaptive physiology as a concept but many of those are fixes for models that are God awful in terms of rules. I can think of several ways to improve them. From extanding the -1 toughness auras to Venomthropes or toxicrenes to follow the trend set by Admech rad troops or Death guard, or we could go in another direction and make it -1 to their strength, make it more of a defensive aura, the choking spores rending the foe's attacks feeble as they gasp for air. If the Toxicrene is gonna be a dedicated poison monster, make it a monster in CC with anything not inside a tank/dreadnought hull.
If the Haruspex is gonna be garbage outside of boosting it with the stratagem and monsterous size, buff it. Why should our CC monsters routinely have WS 4+? If our monsters are to be inferior to everyone else's counterparts they should handily outnumber them, if they are supposed to be able to fight from a place of rough parity give them that.
Though that is getting into proposed rules territory.
How is people's luck with shooting Carnifexes, I haven't given my devilfex a try yet, as I've been using a Venomcannon Carnifex with Deathspitters to support my main advance and shoot into hard targets. I've also been struggling against large groups of Necron Warrors. Any solutions for these issues?
So all of these points are true on our MCs and I see the argument that it's cool as hell to spam a bunch of them... but the game doesn't really make that very doable. To get more than 3 HS, you have to give up CP; either by taking a Spearhead, taking a brigade, or taking multiple detachments. We are very CP hungry; the stuff that works mostly does so because of random BoB strategems/adaptive physiologies/our existing strats where the good ones cost 2 CP+. So to "go wide" with a monster mash list, you have to give up CP, and our subpar statted monsters can't really afford that.
Note: none of that really applies to the FWMCs that are actually, *actually* good. Probably not OP, but quite strong (and not just for their points), in a book of otherwise completely outclassed melee MCs.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: So all of these points are true on our MCs and I see the argument that it's cool as hell to spam a bunch of them... but the game doesn't really make that very doable. To get more than 3 HS, you have to give up CP; either by taking a Spearhead, taking a brigade, or taking multiple detachments. We are very CP hungry; the stuff that works mostly does so because of random BoB strategems/adaptive physiologies/our existing strats where the good ones cost 2 CP+. So to "go wide" with a monster mash list, you have to give up CP, and our subpar statted monsters can't really afford that.
Note: none of that really applies to the FWMCs that are actually, *actually* good. Probably not OP, but quite strong (and not just for their points), in a book of otherwise completely outclassed melee MCs.
Well it would not be a problem having exspensive MC's if they just are good. Problem is the once we have in different arieas often are quite bad.
There is a rather long list of MC's we do not take, and a rather short list of the good once. One of the good thing about the Dimachaeron is that not only is it good. It is also in the fast attack slott.
HQ, many bad MC's.
Troops, not any MC's but we used to have in 5th and 6th edition.
Elites, many bad MC's.
Fast attack, not many MC's.
Heavy support, many bad MC's but some good once.
Flyers: Many bad MC's.
Tyran wrote: I feel this is kinda losing sight of the original topic: Carnifexes.
Unlike the rest of our MCs, we can take Carnifexes in broods of up to 3. The are meant to be spammed in large quantities.
I think that while the rest of our MCs need to be better, Carnifexes can just be cheaper.
Carnifex really aren't much cheaper than many of the other monsters. A toxicrene for example puts a carnifex to shame. A trygone will out melee a carnifex for days and is far more durable plus it can transport 30 man units of gaunts. Carnifex just cost too much is their problem.
Tyran wrote: I feel this is kinda losing sight of the original topic: Carnifexes.
Unlike the rest of our MCs, we can take Carnifexes in broods of up to 3. The are meant to be spammed in large quantities.
I think that while the rest of our MCs need to be better, Carnifexes can just be cheaper.
Carnifex really aren't much cheaper than many of the other monsters. A toxicrene for example puts a carnifex to shame. A trygone will out melee a carnifex for days and is far more durable plus it can transport 30 man units of gaunts. Carnifex just cost too much is their problem.
Both Trygons and Toxicrenes are 50% more expensive than a melee Carnifex, that is a considerable difference.
RandomHeretic wrote: Hello tactically minded Tyranids. I have just posted a new written battle report you may enjoy against Mortarion and the new Death Guard codex. Find it here:
As always please let me know what you think. Good luck out there!
Great battrep, very nice read ! Indeed you both made a few (perhaps a bit more than a few mistakes), but for someone not having played much recently, you did not make THAT MANY mistakes. If he had played more conservatively with his PBCs, it would have been really tough for you to get that win I think. Also, exposing his prince to your exocrine was... Well he will know better next time !
This game really shows the power of mortal wounds, with all those invuls flying around
Tyran wrote: I feel this is kinda losing sight of the original topic: Carnifexes.
Unlike the rest of our MCs, we can take Carnifexes in broods of up to 3. The are meant to be spammed in large quantities.
I think that while the rest of our MCs need to be better, Carnifexes can just be cheaper.
Carnifex really aren't much cheaper than many of the other monsters. A toxicrene for example puts a carnifex to shame. A trygone will out melee a carnifex for days and is far more durable plus it can transport 30 man units of gaunts. Carnifex just cost too much is their problem.
Both Trygons and Toxicrenes are 50% more expensive than a melee Carnifex, that is a considerable difference.
It's a bit more than that.
Once you load out a fex with options its between 125-150 points (125 for a well equipped melee fex) . Which 150(155 with adrenal) gets you a trygon - which IMO is a much better melee only beast and it gives you a lot more too boot with durability and deep strike a troop unit with it. Toxicrine has acid blood/ mortal wounds aura/way better melee weapons/ decent shooting (though I'd take a trygon over all of these options).
Not trying to talk any option up here. Just saying fex should be no where near the cost of these beasts. A melee fex should be a lot closer to a Canoptec spider than a trygon in points. Canoptec spider is 60 points / 70 with guns.
Tyran wrote: I feel this is kinda losing sight of the original topic: Carnifexes.
Unlike the rest of our MCs, we can take Carnifexes in broods of up to 3. The are meant to be spammed in large quantities.
I think that while the rest of our MCs need to be better, Carnifexes can just be cheaper.
Carnifex really aren't much cheaper than many of the other monsters. A toxicrene for example puts a carnifex to shame. A trygone will out melee a carnifex for days and is far more durable plus it can transport 30 man units of gaunts. Carnifex just cost too much is their problem.
Both Trygons and Toxicrenes are 50% more expensive than a melee Carnifex, that is a considerable difference.
It's a bit more than that.
Once you load out a fex with options its between 125-150 points (125 for a well equipped melee fex) . Which 150(155 with adrenal) gets you a trygon - which IMO is a much better melee only beast and it gives you a lot more too boot with durability and deep strike a troop unit with it. Toxicrine has acid blood/ mortal wounds aura/way better melee weapons/ decent shooting (though I'd take a trygon over all of these options).
Not trying to talk any option up here. Just saying fex should be no where near the cost of these beasts. A melee fex should be a lot closer to a Canoptec spider than a trygon in points. Canoptec spider is 60 points / 70 with guns.
No way man, a Fex is a big frigging deal and should cost more in the lore to equal that. It should have comparable capabilities to a dread (but adaptable into something stronger if you sell out for it); and if you choose to take a melee fex, it should melee better than a dread (which never happens today).
Xenomancers wrote: Once you load out a fex with options its between 125-150 points (125 for a well equipped melee fex) . Which 150(155 with adrenal) gets you a trygon - which IMO is a much better melee only beast and it gives you a lot more too boot with durability
Debatable. It's got the edge in a single extra attack with talons, and more consistent WS across multiple rounds of combat (Kraken mostly nullifies this though). S7, without an adaptive physiology, is not great for taking on heavier targets than infantry, and D6 damage is inconsistent against the sort of elite infantry that's prevalent these days. I'd be much happier with the 6 (2 talons + tusks) WS3+ S6 attacks from a Carnifex's first round of combat than the Trygon's, and it's coming in 30 points cheaper than a Trygon and available in broods, so I am not committing as hard in my FoC to keep up role redundancy. Durabilitywise, I really can't even begin to agree. T6 vs. T7 is an even bigger deal than T7 vs. T8. There is a lot of high-rate of fire S6 and S7 weaponry out there that just laughs at a 3+ save and often has multi-damage. T6 even at 4 extra wounds is a painful price to pay for the deep strike and "transport" capacity, and of course being above 10 wound count my poor Trygons are reduced to even worse efffectiveness should they happen to survive, while if a Carnifex makes it through (let's not forget sticking Spore Cysts on there if we want) they are just as effective at 1 wound as they were at 8. So, durability and what you want to get out of durability (better long term performance) is also superior in the Carnifex.
Finally, mobility. Yep, Trygons can deepstrike, they also move at a slightly faster clip than Carnifexes once they're on the ground. Thankfully the age of 3 Trygons deepstriking at 3 key positions only to get nicked by a few lucky plasma or lascannon shots and being bracketed or outright killed before they charged is mostly over, but getting models into assault T1 has not been a problem for this army since our 8th book dropped, and the Carnifex is not an exception.
If you want to play fexes, just go with the stonecrusher variant. Since it already received the 9th edition boost to meele models, it is on a different level compared to our other monsters.
For the same cost as a dual scythe fex with tusk and tail, you get a whole other level of pain.
Its mortal wouds on the charge go from 1 to d3, to d6 against vehicles/monsters. He has 2 attack less, but at strenght 14 rerolling to hit and damage 5 against monster/vehicles.
It puts a redemptor dreadnaught on its last bracket without any external buff.
I do believe Melee fexes need a boost in damage dealing. In specific that penalty on the Crushing claws needs to disappear. But there is no way they can be the centerpieces of 2nd-4th.
Souleater wrote: It's entirely possible that I am still salty about the toughest model in 2nd edition having a lower Toughness than an Aeldari Wraithlord.
To be fair, WLs were also tough as nails back in the day. And pretty meh and underpowered now.
Souleater wrote: It's entirely possible that I am still salty about the toughest model in 2nd edition having a lower Toughness than an Aeldari Wraithlord.
To be fair, WLs were also tough as nails back in the day. And pretty meh and underpowered now.
I do kinda miss the days when T8 meant you could just walk through Str4 like it was a summer breeze. I think the Ctan had the same T stat too.
what's up everyone. I've been out of the game for a couple of years at this point, but looking to hop back in. I went back a few pages just to see how our bugs are fairing in the new edition. I don't play really competitive, but I also don't want to set up models with next to no chance to win the game. I got the impression from the posts I was reading that the truly competitive lists all require FW models to be successful, I just wanted to make sure that was right and ask if there's a way to just hang in games without the FW models?
Battlesong wrote: what's up everyone. I've been out of the game for a couple of years at this point, but looking to hop back in. I went back a few pages just to see how our bugs are fairing in the new edition. I don't play really competitive, but I also don't want to set up models with next to no chance to win the game. I got the impression from the posts I was reading that the truly competitive lists all require FW models to be successful, I just wanted to make sure that was right and ask if there's a way to just hang in games without the FW models?
It can be done.
Spam / warm lord.
Trygon with dev gaunts
Hive Guard
Several monsters are kinda okay...
The FW stuff is just very underpointed by comparison...because that is what FW is great at. Turns out though the FW stuff is about right and pretty much everything else nids is overpointed.
Battlesong wrote: what's up everyone. I've been out of the game for a couple of years at this point, but looking to hop back in. I went back a few pages just to see how our bugs are fairing in the new edition. I don't play really competitive, but I also don't want to set up models with next to no chance to win the game. I got the impression from the posts I was reading that the truly competitive lists all require FW models to be successful, I just wanted to make sure that was right and ask if there's a way to just hang in games without the FW models?
Outside of "super competitive" Bugs can do just fine. The main "trap" is that Hth is now a "thing" in 9th, and Nids don't do Hth very well. But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(tm) still works.
The "secret" is play the mission, and only the mission. Nids can do that as well as any.
pinecone77 wrote: Outside of "super competitive" Bugs can do just fine. The main "trap" is that Hth is now a "thing" in 9th, and Nids don't do Hth very well. But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(tm) still works.
The "secret" is play the mission, and only the mission. Nids can do that as well as any.
Don't do hth well? Wow, I really have to check the rules now as I find it hard to believe that we're bad in close combat. The issue used to be getting them there, not what happened when they were there. Below is the collection of models I'm working with; any advice based off of this is really appreciated.
2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
2 Broodlords
10 Warriors, various loadouts
44 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
35 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Exocrine
2 Trygons
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots
Currently "good" units in HtH have Invulns and Top of the line armor saves. We don't. But we do have acid blood! (costs cp) You want to use Lictors, and/or Rippers to "on all fronts" and deploy scamblers, and the like.
If you are careful you can max the secondaries, and if your foe cannot, you can get a win most every time. We may not be "good" at HtH, but we can Infiltrate, Tunnel, and out number just like always.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What Hive Fleet are you planning on running? The two top choices seem to be Kraken for super speed, and Leviathan, or Jormangandr for increased saves, or tricks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are also "custom" Fleets as well.
pinecone77 wrote: Outside of "super competitive" Bugs can do just fine. The main "trap" is that Hth is now a "thing" in 9th, and Nids don't do Hth very well. But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(tm) still works.
The "secret" is play the mission, and only the mission. Nids can do that as well as any.
Don't do hth well? Wow, I really have to check the rules now as I find it hard to believe that we're bad in close combat. The issue used to be getting them there, not what happened when they were there. Below is the collection of models I'm working with; any advice based off of this is really appreciated.
2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
2 Broodlords
10 Warriors, various loadouts
44 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
35 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Exocrine
2 Trygons
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots
Looking at what you have I suggest running some MSU Stealers, and/or MSU Warriors as your base, us the Broodlords as HQ, one with A spine to increase psycher powers and the add in you gaunts and Zoeys and see how it plays.
pinecone77 wrote: Currently "good" units in HtH have Invulns and Top of the line armor saves. We don't. But we do have acid blood! (costs cp) You want to use Lictors, and/or Rippers to "on all fronts" and deploy scamblers, and the like.
If you are careful you can max the secondaries, and if your foe cannot, you can get a win most every time. We may not be "good" at HtH, but we can Infiltrate, Tunnel, and out number just like always.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What Hive Fleet are you planning on running? The two top choices seem to be Kraken for super speed, and Leviathan, or Jormangandr for increased saves, or tricks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are also "custom" Fleets as well.
pinecone77 wrote: Outside of "super competitive" Bugs can do just fine. The main "trap" is that Hth is now a "thing" in 9th, and Nids don't do Hth very well. But shooting and Smiting work just fine, and the old classic of Cover the table with figs!(tm) still works.
The "secret" is play the mission, and only the mission. Nids can do that as well as any.
Don't do hth well? Wow, I really have to check the rules now as I find it hard to believe that we're bad in close combat. The issue used to be getting them there, not what happened when they were there. Below is the collection of models I'm working with; any advice based off of this is really appreciated.
2 Hive Tyrants One wit LW/BS and HVC, one with wings, but no other arms attached yet
1 Tervigon w/Crushing Claws
2 Broodlords
10 Warriors, various loadouts
44 Genestealers
41 Hormagaunts
35 Termagants, some w/devourers, but I don't remember how many
29 Gargoyles
1 Lictor (usually use as Deathleaper)
3 Zoanthropes
1 Biovore w/2 mines
1 Exocrine
2 Trygons
4 Carnifexes, 1 w/dual ST, 1 w/ST and Crushing Claws, 1 w/Claws and HVC, and 1 with 2 devourers and 2 open arm slots
Looking at what you have I suggest running some MSU Stealers, and/or MSU Warriors as your base, us the Broodlords as HQ, one with A spine to increase psycher powers and the add in you gaunts and Zoeys and see how it plays.
I'll most likely run Kraken, at least until I get a couple of 9th edition games under my belt as I think that'll be the easiest to play with to start. Staying away from the monsters makes me cry as they're the whole reason I started playing the army. Sounds like a complete reversal of how we played 8th edition and is going to take a lot of games to get used to. It almost makes me just want to hold off to see what the new codex brings.....
Battlesong wrote: I'll most likely run Kraken, at least until I get a couple of 9th edition games under my belt as I think that'll be the easiest to play with to start. Staying away from the monsters makes me cry as they're the whole reason I started playing the army. Sounds like a complete reversal of how we played 8th edition and is going to take a lot of games to get used to. It almost makes me just want to hold off to see what the new codex brings.....
Kraken gives you a lot of mobility, good stratagems and abilities. Particularly good for things that want to tie up enemy units in combat.
Looking at your monster list:
Tervigons are pretty awful right now for their points.
Walking Hive Tyrants have sadly been poorly optimized for quite a while, much as I like them thematically
Flying Hive tyrants are reasonably solid and have turned up in some top lists as a singleton. You need to have a plan for how you're going to use him though, he can be focused down surprisingly quickly even through a 4+ invuln if you expose him to too much firepower.
I honestly can't comment on Trygons, apologies.
Carnifexes are just a little too fragile for their points, but they're not so far outside the competitive window that they can't be used. Don't get me wrong, major event top threes won't have any in the list, but they are usable.
Exocrines are actually still extremely good. Stick the 5+ invulnerable save mutation on them, and use the stratagem to make them flat three damage liberally where it makes sense. They're not quite as optimally tuned as the FW guys are, but before that book dropped they were our go to big boy.
The problem is that if you only take one or two or three monsters, everyone's army has enough antitank firepower to mow through them. They need a bit more critical mass to become more survivable. The Exocrine in particular needs screening, although it looks like you have lots of little guys.
If you decide to expand your monster inventory, you have a reasonable base to start from. However, just putting a flying tyrant and an exocrine in with lots of little guys will probably end in tears most games.
Yet! 
But try several small squads of stealers and Broodlord commanders, and you can likely find them useful. 
But we do have acid blood! (costs 
