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2020/12/15 12:15:35
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ? So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/15 12:16:43
Hundreds of bodies, all with an invun. All infantry so you can do actions to score. High mobility so you can get anywhere on the board and choke your opponent out of sections of the board. Decent mortal wound output that dont care if you spend points on durability.
This list wins in 9th edition. Is it fun to play?......... well thats on you to decide.
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2020/12/15 13:08:37
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
This is my current iteration of my league list. Feels solid. Though there may be a few changes coming the core is solid with the kronos patrol, malaceptor, malanthrope, and 3 barbed herodules.
League Nids
Tyranids - Strike Force - Grand Tournament ( 9CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Hundreds of bodies, all with an invun. All infantry so you can do actions to score. High mobility so you can get anywhere on the board and choke your opponent out of sections of the board. Decent mortal wound output that dont care if you spend points on durability.
This list wins in 9th edition. Is it fun to play?......... well thats on you to decide.
Nice ! That list is a great discussion topic.
While I totally don't dispute the fact that -throwing 3*30 gargoyles into an opponent faces, to choke them in their deployment zone and prevent them from scoring- works perfectly well, I think that only TTS players would do that. No one can carry 90 gargoyles + as many gaunts to a tournament, let alone play multiple games in a day with that sort of list.
Unless... Well I guess with careful planning and a lot of crafting it can be done.
In any case I have a few armies and I don't see any winning against the list you posted. I have orks, perhaps 100 boyz, but i would still lose if I go second, because turn 1 that list can prevent me da jumping by covering the board (just like mass infantry gen cult but on turn 2).
I guess one would need tons of strengh 4 shots to down 2 units per turn, but that army would auto lose against custodes and other armies which don't care about S4 shots.
150 boyz + ghaz is the same kind of list (which is actually easy to transport) and is also a problem in the current meta. Perhaps some people know how to deal with these armies, I have for one have no clue, not with a TAC list that can work at a tournament when you don't know who you will be up against
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: This is my current iteration of my league list. Feels solid. Though there may be a few changes coming the core is solid with the kronos patrol, malaceptor, malanthrope, and 3 barbed herodules.
League Nids
Spoiler:
Tyranids - Strike Force - Grand Tournament ( 9CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Total Command Points: 5/14
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
I agree it feels reall solid. 3 Jormun barbed Hs pack a ton of 48' shooting, and I don't think you can lose more than 1 per turn, even against a avery fierce AT gunline (not if all 3 are in maleceptor bubble range). Some opponents won't even be able to kill one in 2 turns. I would go for an exocrine or two thgouh, in the kronos patrol, instead of hive guards because ap3 shots can really come in handy, and there is too much overlap between 3 barbs and HGs.
Again, great list ! I only own one of each hierodule but if I had 3 I would love to give them a spin in the same kind of list. BTW I added "spoilers" to your list in my quote, I love how they shorten the length of this post !
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
Yeah I know, it happens on so many forums. I plead guilty to doing that too from time to time (straying form the topic that is), but sometimes it just gets out of hhand and someone has to call it
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/15 14:57:09
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
2020/12/15 16:22:11
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
Magnetising your gargoyles is tactics. Other gice you have no usable way to transport them an thus is a blank entry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/15 22:42:56
The hiveguard actually give me some indirect fire and have the equivalent ap against most units in cover as Exocrine. I've found I need less and less direct fire. And that doesn't even count double firing the hiveguard which you can't do with the big bugs.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2020/12/16 00:04:24
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The hiveguard actually give me some indirect fire and have the equivalent ap against most units in cover as Exocrine. I've found I need less and less direct fire. And that doesn't even count double firing the hiveguard which you can't do with the big bugs.
If you don’t move, the Exocrine naturally doubleshots?
Looking at both the impaler HG and the Exocrine, they seem roughly equivalent to me. I could see pros and cons to either depending on the matchup and the rest of the list, but they seem to fill the same basic role. I like the flat damage, but S8 is also pretty nice. Degrading profile vs. loosing models is another coin flip.
Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2020/12/16 00:35:01
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Hulksmash wrote: Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
It is also considerably more expensive and subject to the limitations of stratagems. Moreover, the Exocrine benefits more from Symbiostorm because it can have exploding 5+.
IMHO, it depends on the terrain (the more terrain, the better the Hive Guard is) and the meta (Hive Guard is better against T8 targets).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/16 00:35:53
2020/12/16 00:50:49
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Hulksmash wrote: Doubke shooting the hiveguard is 24 shots, not 12. They can pick on people hiding when the exocrine cant. Essentially its an unkillable (if screened right and deployed correctly) 24 ignore cover st 8 ap2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s with exploding 6s.
I was looking at roughly equal points, so 3xHG vs 1 Exo. A 6 bug squad is going to lay down a lot more harm, granted.
Yes, the ppints are different but to me even 2 exocrines (similar points) isnt as useful given ability to hide and higher strength plus inherent 3+ to hit and that brings them to the same number of shots. And mobility is an issue if i do need to move as then double shooting and bonus to hit require a strat as well.
I get the idea of the exocrine and prior to barbs i loved them. But if im using 3 barbs an exocrine is just an easier to kill lower st herodule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/16 03:41:18
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2020/12/16 06:32:25
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
depending on collection ofc, but in dreamland I wouldn't bother with any non-FWmc's except for maybe Swarmlord atm, they are just never gonna be worth it comparatively.
2020/12/16 11:54:03
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/16 11:55:06
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
2020/12/16 15:22:51
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
Yep I guess we will see, but I have had many tournaments where I thought I was going to get most games against marines, and ended up not even getting one round...
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
2020/12/16 19:04:21
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
addnid wrote: This is the tactics thread. I click, seeing someone has posted stuff, and then i read stuff about magnets and such... And I think well this is just not the place for this. Also just before we had a wave of wishlisting posts. Not the place either (I like thinking about what we will in the next codex get too, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't qualify at all as "tactics" to me) ?
So, very sorry if that seems impolite, because I don't want to make anyone angry (these are tough times we should be nice to each other, more than ever !), but could we please just get back to the topic of nid tactics here ?
This has been the problem with a lot of tactica threads recently. I posted a reply to this thread a good few pages back regarding list building and I got one response before wishlisting and the like took over. It doesn't just happen here for what it is worth. Stuff like this should be kept to 40k general, but I don't mind the idea of a centralised faction discussion if it wasn't in a tactics thread.
It's because of the pandemic. People have, at best, a lot less opportunity to use tactics by actually playing. At the same time people have a lot more opportunity to stay at home and work on models or think about models they'd like to have.
addnid wrote: Do we really have that many targets against which S7AP3 is much better that S8AP2 ? I am starting to think "not that many actually"
Hmmm...
The case for the exocrine gets thinner... Perhaps I will end up dropping the exo like Hulk and Nitro
If you are looking at cashing out marines, or other 2 wound models, does the flat 2D make more of an impact then wounding them (assuming T4) on 2+s? Ignore cover vs. a point of AP seems mostly a wash.
If we see a meta shift to gravis armored heavy intercessors, or other T5 3M models, and the thing we need to kill, is the damage curve more/less important?
These are meta/mathammer questions I don’t have an answer to, just tossing out there. I assume, as normal, that marines make up the bulk of players, so thinking about how to deal with them should consume a decent amount of our mindspace.
A metagame influx of Gravis - and, I would argue, new Plague Marines - means that S8’s advantage over S7 diminishes, and the Exo’s access to Pathogenic Slime gets it a significant boost in my eyes.
The Barbed Hierodule also has access to Pathogenic Slime.
Applies it’s damage much easier. So much more range. Move and shoot. So much more resilient. Punches hard in melee. Faster.
Exocrine is cheaper and marginally out damages Hierodule if both to get to shoot under ideal circumstances at Gravis, as it has 1 extra point of AP. But you have to apply that damage, and Barby is so much more practical and reliable at doing that. It also outdamages vs many other targets. It pays for those benefits but it’s a very cheap price for what you get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exocrine is probably the best non-HQ, non-FW monster in the army, and is still a significant step down from the FW monsters imo
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 01:15:28
2020/12/17 01:47:04
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Sure the Barbed Hierodule provides mobile firepower, but if you want to stay still and just shoot the Exocrine is far more efficient while the Barbed Hierodule wants to be more aggressive to get to use those massive talons.
2020/12/17 10:56:13
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Nitro Zeus wrote: The Barbed Hierodule also has access to Pathogenic Slime.
Applies it’s damage much easier. So much more range. Move and shoot. So much more resilient. Punches hard in melee. Faster.
Exocrine is cheaper and marginally out damages Hierodule if both to get to shoot under ideal circumstances at Gravis, as it has 1 extra point of AP. But you have to apply that damage, and Barby is so much more practical and reliable at doing that. It also outdamages vs many other targets. It pays for those benefits but it’s a very cheap price for what you get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exocrine is probably the best non-HQ, non-FW monster in the army, and is still a significant step down from the FW monsters imo
This
Nidzilla is only viable thanks to FW monsters and Malanthrope and even if you want to run few FW pieces they are the best bang for buck in the entire Army
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 10:56:40
2020/12/18 01:37:39
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/23 12:26:01
2020/12/23 13:51:22
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
grouchoben wrote: I'm hearing a lot of good things about 2 Rippers, 2 Lictors and 2 Mawlocs for scramblers, objective denial, linebreaker, etc. Are people leaning more into tyranid units that don't do much damage but give great board control?
Thinking of selling off my Deathwatch and going in on nids, you see. Hive guard, 90 hormagaunts, an exocrine, zoanthropes, neurothropes and the above DS units, is the idea. Solid board control, invulns on nearly everything, great mortal wounds.
I know nids are thoroughly mid-table at the moment, but I'm so sick of SM spam that it almost feels dirty to own any.
I do believe most good nid players have givin up winning in a fair fight. Instead they lean very hard into the objective game.
I've just shelved my nids for now. They can win, but they don't make for fun games.
I've got my sisters to carry me until the next nid codex, which is actually shaping up to be extremely nice, since all the design aims of this edition point to great things for nids.
2020/12/23 16:48:11
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Agreed, Nids are in an odd spot right now where the best tactic is to flood the board and fight against the scenario rather than against the other player, maximizing points and killing little. Many find it not fun because it has no heroism and no real in game battle feel, more like playing a euro board game and maximizing points. It’s also a major investment in dollars, assembly, painting, transporting, and moving hordes, which turns away a lot of players.
The second most effective approach currently is to lean heavily into shooting (guns or mind bullets) which feels weird for a lot of Tyranid players who love the traditional fluff of overwhelming their opponent in melee.
The visceral “crush your enemy under weight of claws and talons” approach for Nids is absolutely overcosted at the moment, which is a real shame since we are generally in the best edition for melee arguably since fourth!
So we experiment and we wait...
For the greater glory of the Zoat Empire!
2020/12/23 16:54:26
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Verthane wrote: Agreed, Nids are in an odd spot right now where the best tactic is to flood the board and fight against the scenario rather than against the other player, maximizing points and killing little. Many find it not fun because it has no heroism and no real in game battle feel, more like playing a euro board game and maximizing points. It’s also a major investment in dollars, assembly, painting, transporting, and moving hordes, which turns away a lot of players.
The second most effective approach currently is to lean heavily into shooting (guns or mind bullets) which feels weird for a lot of Tyranid players who love the traditional fluff of overwhelming their opponent in melee.
The visceral “crush your enemy under weight of claws and talons” approach for Nids is absolutely overcosted at the moment, which is a real shame since we are generally in the best edition for melee arguably since fourth!
So we experiment and we wait...
I play mostly an ork player these days. I always felt flustered that he was better then me in melee as I have thought of nids as a melee or hybrid army. So when I built shoot lists I always felt like I did wrong. Falling back, chaff and shoot was the only thing working. Glad to hear more players have the same conclusions. I love the models and rules though. I just think they need a better identity strategic vice. Playing to missions is fine, but I wish that was more represented in the fluff.
Personally I love shooty nids, they evolved guns for a reason and Kronos is my favorite Hive Fleet (so daemons are better in melee? no problem just shoot them off reality). But yeah it is a shame melee nids aren't viable (aside of FW monsters).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/23 17:29:47
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