Niiai wrote: I have you blocked shogun. So your posts just turn up as compromised. But I thought maiby I am to harsh and checked the remark. And you clearny understand what I am saying, you are just looking to bicker.
Most importantly you do not adress the actual argument that you are paying 1 CP for the relic, and you might not get much out of it before the important turns are over. Especially on an army that eat so much CP as tyranids.
Bicker? I simply genuinely didn't understand why you would say that the refund start at turn 2.
Adeptive neural lobe:
While the bearer is on the battlefield, each time your opponent spends a Command point to use a Stratagem, you can roll one D6: on a 5+, you gain 1 Command point.
So if the opponent uses 3 CP in the first battle round at average you already get 1 CP back. Most competitive armylist trow a lot of CP around at the first round. So if you pay 1 CP for this relic I think it is a good deal because even if you don't get to round 4 it is most likely that you profit from it in round 2 and 3. Like I said, if you pick this as a third relic (stratagem: 1extra relic = 1CP 2 extra relic = 3CP) then I might reconsider..... I rather have 2 CP then maybe 3+CP.
Niiai wrote: I rather think it will be a long time before I click on the read button on people I ignore. Apolegies to you others.
If you don't want to read my stuff than don't read it. Just don't call me rude or say that I bicker because you disagree with me.
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons
EL: 3 venomthropes
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
HY: Scythed Hierodule
HY: Scythed Hierodule
Big beasty list, I think I would drop the venomthropes and free some points (drop the synaptic link on the warriors and switch to a talon hive tyrant) to add a malanthrope.
Niiai wrote: I have you blocked shogun. So your posts just turn up as compromised. But I thought maiby I am to harsh and checked the remark. And you clearny understand what I am saying, you are just looking to bicker.
Most importantly you do not adress the actual argument that you are paying 1 CP for the relic, and you might not get much out of it before the important turns are over. Especially on an army that eat so much CP as tyranids.
I rather think it will be a long time before I click on the read button on people I ignore. Apolegies to you others.
Yeah there's limit. Still you are pretty sure to get it refunded by T1. Or is the relic 2CP rather than 1 CP? If it's 1 then T1 you get 1CP=refunded.
Are you pretty shure to get it refunded by turn 1? Tyranids pretty much want to emty out quite fast. But other armies are not that CP dependent. If they use one stratagem turn one that is 33% to get it back. The same in the later turns when they start at 0 and they only get the 1 CP a turn.
My point beeing the relic is very far from a guaranteed 5 CP. And considering you often pay 1 CP to get it it is very far from a guaranteed 4 cp. If the game is over turn 2 (some games are) it is even worse. You are paying 1 CP to hope to get 2 back before the game is over.
While the relic certainly is nice it is not an autoinclude. And not nesaseraly a reason to be leviathan in a CS list.
Niiai wrote: Are you pretty shure to get it refunded by turn 1? Tyranids pretty much want to emty out quite fast. But other armies are not that CP dependent. If they use one stratagem turn one that is 33% to get it back. The same in the later turns when they start at 0 and they only get the 1 CP a turn.
My point beeing the relic is very far from a guaranteed 5 CP. And considering you often pay 1 CP to get it it is very far from a guaranteed 4 cp. If the game is over turn 2 (some games are) it is even worse. You are paying 1 CP to hope to get 2 back before the game is over.
While the relic certainly is nice it is not an autoinclude. And not nesaseraly a reason to be leviathan in a CS list.
What Niiai Fails to understand is that a stampede list really benefits from the Leviathan Hive mind Imperative stratagem apart from a few other great stratagems. So you might rather have a few extra CP at turn 3 or 4 (also because the stampede stratagems are so good!) then another second relic. If the game relies on 1 CP after the first battle round and is decided at turn 2 you already got a big win or it went really wrong.
It also depends if you just want to win the game or also want a high score, like in a tournament setting. For a high score you need to go for the objectives and might want to save the CP to keep using hive mind imperative at turn 3+. You could also do this with the +1 CP that you get in each command phase of course..
Niiai wrote: Are you pretty shure to get it refunded by turn 1? Tyranids pretty much want to emty out quite fast. But other armies are not that CP dependent. If they use one stratagem turn one that is 33% to get it back. The same in the later turns when they start at 0 and they only get the 1 CP a turn.
My point beeing the relic is very far from a guaranteed 5 CP. And considering you often pay 1 CP to get it it is very far from a guaranteed 4 cp. If the game is over turn 2 (some games are) it is even worse. You are paying 1 CP to hope to get 2 back before the game is over.
While the relic certainly is nice it is not an autoinclude. And not nesaseraly a reason to be leviathan in a CS list.
Sure? No. Pretty much nothing is sure apart from we all die. I have rolled 12 dice and not single 6 and that's not even that spectacular.
But you claimed earliest it gets refunded is T2. Which is flat out impossible unless either the refund never works in T1(ie you can't use it at all) or it costs 2CP.
If you get CP on T1 and it costs 1CP then it got refunded T1. Which you claimed is impossibility.
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons
EL: 3 venomthropes
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
HY: Scythed Hierodule
HY: Scythed Hierodule
Big beasty list, I think I would drop the venomthropes and free some points (drop the synaptic link on the warriors and switch to a talon hive tyrant) to add a malanthrope.
Is the malenthrope meta dependant? It makes your bugs harder to kill (and let's say 2-3 big bugs max, or can you squeeze more into range?) and has some slight offensive power & board presence. But you could have a third hive tyrant; or an extra harpy or mawloc?
As you're thinking about a malenthrope, how about you drop a Dima and the venomthropes for a Malenthrope & a bunch of (4) hive guard? Then spare points for some adrenal glands.
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons, Synaptic link bioweapon bond
TR: 3 warriors with talons
EL: 3 venomthropes
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
FA: Dimachaeron
HY: Scythed Hierodule
HY: Scythed Hierodule
Big beasty list, I think I would drop the venomthropes and free some points (drop the synaptic link on the warriors and switch to a talon hive tyrant) to add a malanthrope.
Is the malenthrope meta dependant? It makes your bugs harder to kill (and let's say 2-3 big bugs max, or can you squeeze more into range?) and has some slight offensive power & board presence. But you could have a third hive tyrant; or an extra harpy or mawloc?
As you're thinking about a malenthrope, how about you drop a Dima and the venomthropes for a Malenthrope & a bunch of (4) hive guard? Then spare points for some adrenal glands.
This is just a list that I found that did well in a tournament... and I think I would simply switch the venomthropes and some extra points for a malanthrope. It could be better to invest the points in more "in your face" MC's but I think I like the -1 to hit against ork shooting.
Is there any way to make Crusher Stampede work without the FW models? As I understand I would need some hive guard, but what about monsters? Mellee carnifex and tyranifexes? Do trygons have a place?
I think the question is there a way to make Crusher Stampede work? Instead of just listing out things that are bad I can say the flying hive tyrant and swarm lord is good.
There was a period in 9th edition when marines did well that competetive tyranid lists ditched the hiveguards all together and did exocrines and it worked. For that brief window we where good. Then forge world dropped and people liked the big monsters there. So much Dimachaeron even got a point increase. However, the meta shifted quite hard with the intrudction of drukhari and admech. While reigned in grey knights are the new hotness (until chapter approved drops.) I don't think hive guard are mandatory, but the reason exocrines worked so well was because there where so many 2 wound marines around. These days there are also much ignore 1 damage models. Exocrines hate that.
Tyranofexes have always come out ahead in math hammer against T8 only. And they have been considered the inferior shooting platform. The flamer one has had some traction earlier, but never a powerhouse.
But why are you playing? To do well in tournaments or to have fun? If you do not play tournaments then just go ham with what ever crusher stampede you feel like. It is not like a crusher stampede with forge world models is the way to play warhammer, not even tyranids. Just do what you want.
(Regarding the trygon it costs to much compared to how fast it dies. Relic adrenal glands and re-roll charge is interesting but very unreliable. If you bring a trygon it is because of the synaptic link. Remember you can bring more then 3 synaptic links, you can only activate 3.)
Personally I plan on trying some Carnifexen...but my hopes are not high. But if our future codex gives them a much needed boost then they may become useful again. I think I may give Ole One Eye a try as well...why not?
I have purchased some GSC to use in Not Nidzilla, so I have some modeling, and painting to do.
Don't forget that the change to Symbiostorm to 'unmodified' 6's is also a big nerf to the Exocrine. When it was used it relied a lot on symbiostorm giving it exploding hits on a 5+.
I've read through the last few pages searching for details regarding the Crusher Stampede. I played against it this past weekend at a tourney and got a tie. However, one unit was an absolute beatstick and was unsure how the rules interacted.
Harridan (Lord of War) in a Super Heavy Auxillary.
Can you all help me understand why it receives the benefits of the Crusher Stampede rules? Is there any other Super Heavy Auxillaries that potentially ignore the restriction of not getting detachment abilities?
Sarigar wrote: I've read through the last few pages searching for details regarding the Crusher Stampede. I played against it this past weekend at a tourney and got a tie. However, one unit was an absolute beatstick and was unsure how the rules interacted.
Harridan (Lord of War) in a Super Heavy Auxillary.
Can you all help me understand why it receives the benefits of the Crusher Stampede rules? Is there any other Super Heavy Auxillaries that potentially ignore the restriction of not getting detachment abilities?
Because Crusher Stampede rules are not detachment abilities, they are army wide abilities.
Interesting, they lose the rules a Harridan would not normally get access to if it was in an Auxillary detachment and gains these rules. That really increased the value of that model giving it a 5++ and -1 damage.
Sarigar wrote: Interesting, they lose the rules a Harridan would not normally get access to if it was in an Auxillary detachment and gains these rules. That really increased the value of that model giving it a 5++ and -1 damage.
Yes, yes, it does. Just remember that it can't be used in turn one of most dawn of war missions as its wingspan is too wide to fit, so it's forced to sit still for a turn. Or it can be reserved for 4 CP, if the player has that many to hand at the start.
Sarigar wrote: Interesting, they lose the rules a Harridan would not normally get access to if it was in an Auxillary detachment and gains these rules. That really increased the value of that model giving it a 5++ and -1 damage.
Yes, yes, it does. Just remember that it can't be used in turn one of most dawn of war missions as its wingspan is too wide to fit, so it's forced to sit still for a turn. Or it can be reserved for 4 CP, if the player has that many to hand at the start.
Sarigar wrote: Interesting, they lose the rules a Harridan would not normally get access to if it was in an Auxillary detachment and gains these rules. That really increased the value of that model giving it a 5++ and -1 damage.
Yes, yes, it does. Just remember that it can't be used in turn one of most dawn of war missions as its wingspan is too wide to fit, so it's forced to sit still for a turn. Or it can be reserved for 4 CP, if the player has that many to hand at the start.
Take strategic adaptation, reserve it for free.
Yes, that's a very good catch, a Leviathan warlord could take that as their warlord trait. Very nice!
Sarigar wrote: Interesting. I didn't measure the size of the model, hut we also played the old Hammer and Anvil deployment zone (I forget which mission it was).
If it was Hammer and Anvil then he was legal and all good.
Also, some (to many) TOs only treat the Base as having to fit, not the wing span. So that might have been opperent there.....the "Hairy Dan" is a super skew list. But if somebody owns one, they should be able to play it.
Favouring this build as a fast moving assassin or problem solver rather than the twin-devourer Tyrant. Running the Behemoth WL Trait, buffed up and with the RBeast Warlord Trait and Monstrous Size...
A potential 11 attacks at S7, -3 AP, D3 ignoring invulns seems like it will take care of most troublesome units - before adding in the additional 2 damage every time a 6 is rolled to wound.
Furthermore, if I was more concerned for armour saves 10 attacks with Monstrous Rending Claws is still a wonderful, cruel little thing, especially with rerolls to wound and the bonus damage on 6s in a world of Transhuman physiology. If anything, Transhuman actually helps as it means even more chances to fish for 6s and that lovely -6 AP and Damage 5 (!!)
The foot tyrant, I will admit is more likely to be a staple Scytal/Venom Cannon backline support critter. I'm not wanting to completely strip away melee capability to turn it into a gunboat simply because getting bogged down in combat will suck and also, scytals for the straight consistency of -3 AP, 3 damage rather than fishing for a D3 - still making it a threat.
He's essentially backline with Catalyst and Psychic Scream.
My main thoughts are bouncing around making the Slayer the Foot Tyrant...but then, no. I think not to be honest. The wings let him jump across screens to get to those juicy support pieces or units and the speed lets him reposition across the table quickly enough to adapt.
I'm seeing the Crushers being something of an odd mix - you've got some long range firepower with T-fexes, Hierodules and Exocrines, as well as some HVC support from Tyrants and Harpies - can make a very solid mid range hybrid force with Warriors, Acid Tfexes and Devilfexes ....
And a solid potential for assault between a Slayer Tyrant, Dimas or just a staple Carnifex Stampede.
I do have eventual plans for a Dima or two but I also want to flesh out a lot of options first with where to go. I'm trying to keep my Warriors flexible - as the only ObSec unit Crushers have, they need to be flexible enough to clear through shooting or assault.
So my brood ideas are Lash and Bonesword, Deathspitters or Dual Sword, Deathspitters.
Again, Scytals may be cheap but no AP in a game which has oh so many 3+ saves running about is painful. Normally it's fine in traditional nids where you can rely on weight of fire from various sources, but the Crushers are a different thing.
Looks like it could be fun. But... If you don't go Leviathan for your Crusher, you lose several key strats. You also might not want to pack everything on one model, because Railguns, and the like exist.
For Warriors I am running them bare bones in MSU with Synapse links. They are Synapse, Ob sec, and give +1's to hit. That is a Lot of value for 66+15 points!
pinecone77 wrote: Looks like it could be fun. But... If you don't go Leviathan for your Crusher, you lose several key strats. You also might not want to pack everything on one model, because Railguns, and the like exist.
Gestalt Commander is a Leviathan Warlord trait - it just allows you to choose and cycle between the other Hive Fleet specific warlord traits - so sitting on Behemoth's for that extra damage on the 6 to wound but able to cycle to Kraken's if you want to pile in threats (giving a nearby Carnifex, Dima, Haruspex or Warrior brood ASF) or Hydra's if you need to fall back and recover a bit (rolling dice for each wound lost, recovering the wound on a 6).
Plus you sort of have to go eggs in a basket with a Slayer or Reaper Tyrant to make it work - largely because the extra attacks and damage are what make it.
Problem is we have so many critters that I'm trying to figure out the next step from where I am currently.
With luck next month should see a respectable option of funds coming in (around £150ish but minimum £50ish) so trying to plan bit by bit
Thinking if the £100 comes in I'm going to grab a Dimachaeron regardless because they're just incredible for what they are in all aspects.
The £50ish - I'm leaning toward either 2 more Warrior broods out to start bulking units out to 6 (or in this case ensure I can bulk 2 units to 6 and have 3 Scytal Warriors) or 1 Warrior box and 1 Venomthrope box. But of course, the fatal temptation is adding a Haruspex or Exocrine. Or a Maleceptor.
Rumor is Chapter ap. has one bad feel, and three good ones...Hive Guard going to +5 pts...or abouts 50 per. The good news is Exocrenes are dropping to around 155 (-15) Tyrannos with Acid will run about 160, and Haro drops down to 155 ish...so if you have one, use it...
pinecone77 wrote: Looks like it could be fun. But... If you don't go Leviathan for your Crusher, you lose several key strats. You also might not want to pack everything on one model, because Railguns, and the like exist.
Gestalt Commander is a Leviathan Warlord trait - it just allows you to choose and cycle between the other Hive Fleet specific warlord traits - so sitting on Behemoth's for that extra damage on the 6 to wound but able to cycle to Kraken's if you want to pile in threats (giving a nearby Carnifex, Dima, Haruspex or Warrior brood ASF) or Hydra's if you need to fall back and recover a bit (rolling dice for each wound lost, recovering the wound on a 6).
Plus you sort of have to go eggs in a basket with a Slayer or Reaper Tyrant to make it work - largely because the extra attacks and damage are what make it.
Problem is we have so many critters that I'm trying to figure out the next step from where I am currently.
With luck next month should see a respectable option of funds coming in (around £150ish but minimum £50ish) so trying to plan bit by bit
Thinking if the £100 comes in I'm going to grab a Dimachaeron regardless because they're just incredible for what they are in all aspects.
The £50ish - I'm leaning toward either 2 more Warrior broods out to start bulking units out to 6 (or in this case ensure I can bulk 2 units to 6 and have 3 Scytal Warriors) or 1 Warrior box and 1 Venomthrope box. But of course, the fatal temptation is adding a Haruspex or Exocrine. Or a Maleceptor.
Swarmy is a "must take" so you might think of that in the future. Dima went up in Chapter approved ( rumor) but is still a great monster. both of the Heirodules are awesome. I don't have any, but dang if I don't want 'em.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can see putting a strangle gun in each Warrior brood to push bach screens....but I am torn. I currently don't consider them worth the points.......
I want to know how the new missions and secondaries will affect. Must crusher stampede list treat the troop section as a minimum, but now we probably want larger squads, but without the data I am unsure as to why. Perhaps it is time for the humble gaunts to shine?
Your best bet are the new raveners, which are now one of the best units in the game.
Going to say, considering the point drop and free rending claws and deathspitters now they've become incredibly tempting. Again for more short range firepower but also for the sheer number of attacks they get as well as the invuln. 180 points for a brood of 9 seems quite a wonderful thing indeed.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Is there any way to make Crusher Stampede work without the FW models? As I understand I would need some hive guard, but what about monsters? Mellee carnifex and tyranifexes? Do trygons have a place?
To answer that question Lord Blackscale, I played a game yesterday with Stampede against Custodes and took 82-35 win. Also note, I did NOT use Hive Guard in this list. I think Tyrannofex with some Leviathan combos make him pretty deadly.
I’ve keep seeing all these Stampede lists on You Tube battle reports and here on Dakka with like 50% or more Forge World models in the list. I wanted to prove to myself that that Stampede doesn’t need Forge World to be competitive. So I built this list for a start. In my mind, having that -1D and 5+ inv is plenty enough to make just the GW plastics all you need.
Army of Renown Crusher Stampede (Leviathan)
Battalion
My opponent’s secondaries were Bring it Down, Behind Enemy Lines and Abhor the Witch
I got 1st turn and never looked back. Ran everything I had towards the objectives with the exception of Tyrannofex, Flyrant, Swarmlord and one Haruspex. I put used the Swarm Leader ability on the Tyrannofex and also Bioweapon Bond for the +1 to hit. Took out the Contemptor Dread in the 1st round. I Hive commander the Haruspex with Murderous Size and charge him right into some guardians. Only ended up killing two of the three, but that’s OK because now he’s stuck. On his turn one his stance was Salvus and formed up a gun line. I think that was the big mistake at the beginning of the game for him. I took some hits, and lost a couple warriors. Turn 2 I drop the Tyrannocyte with 2nd Haruspex, then just proceeded to tangle up everything in combat after turn 2 just collecting points. Proceeded to kill Trajan and his Warden Guard with 2 Screamer Killers and Flyrant by turn 3. I was under the assumption that’s what the Custodes are supposed to do. I just beat him to the punch I suppose. My opponent did have some really bad rolls go against him, but I honestly don’t think it would have mattered. Custodes have some really cool new tricks, and that Terminator Shield Captain was wounding my big nids on 2+ (sick), but only being able to do D2 per hit really hurt him. That and the lack of heavy weapons probably as well.
Overall, I think Carnifex (name your flavor) are going to be the new SM Dreads and the Haruspex the new “Distraction Carnifex”. All those -1D +5 invun bodies that are fairly cheap, can go along way. Using the breakthrough strat every turn was awesome as well. That was 30pts of MW that made a huge difference, even though some of them did get stopped by the built in Custodes 6+ FNP.
Can’t wait to fine tune this sucker. I think I’m going to use more Carnifex next game. Maybe 3 more Screamer Killers or 3 Stone Crushers.
To answer that question Lord Blackscale, I played a game yesterday with Stampede against Custodes and took 82-35 win. Also note, I did NOT use Hive Guard in this list. I think Tyrannofex with some Leviathan combos make him pretty deadly.
It looks like fun but I think it would not work in a competitive setting. Lists with any decent amount of shooting that get first turn can take you out. I play thousand sons with 10 terminators and in combination with mortal wounds, I can take out 4 MC each turn. Also shooty orks with waagh can really bring in the pain.
The forgeworld models work better because they're faster, ignore terrain and got toughness 8. Carnifexes and haruspex need an extra turn to get in close combat and the cannot affort that.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Is there any way to make Crusher Stampede work without the FW models? As I understand I would need some hive guard, but what about monsters? Mellee carnifex and tyranifexes? Do trygons have a place?
To answer that question Lord Blackscale, I played a game yesterday with Stampede against Custodes and took 82-35 win. Also note, I did NOT use Hive Guard in this list. I think Tyrannofex with some Leviathan combos make him pretty deadly.
I’ve keep seeing all these Stampede lists on You Tube battle reports and here on Dakka with like 50% or more Forge World models in the list. I wanted to prove to myself that that Stampede doesn’t need Forge World to be competitive. So I built this list for a start. In my mind, having that -1D and 5+ inv is plenty enough to make just the GW plastics all you need.
Army of Renown Crusher Stampede (Leviathan)
Battalion
My opponent’s secondaries were Bring it Down, Behind Enemy Lines and Abhor the Witch
I got 1st turn and never looked back. Ran everything I had towards the objectives with the exception of Tyrannofex, Flyrant, Swarmlord and one Haruspex. I put used the Swarm Leader ability on the Tyrannofex and also Bioweapon Bond for the +1 to hit. Took out the Contemptor Dread in the 1st round. I Hive commander the Haruspex with Murderous Size and charge him right into some guardians. Only ended up killing two of the three, but that’s OK because now he’s stuck. On his turn one his stance was Salvus and formed up a gun line. I think that was the big mistake at the beginning of the game for him. I took some hits, and lost a couple warriors. Turn 2 I drop the Tyrannocyte with 2nd Haruspex, then just proceeded to tangle up everything in combat after turn 2 just collecting points. Proceeded to kill Trajan and his Warden Guard with 2 Screamer Killers and Flyrant by turn 3. I was under the assumption that’s what the Custodes are supposed to do. I just beat him to the punch I suppose. My opponent did have some really bad rolls go against him, but I honestly don’t think it would have mattered. Custodes have some really cool new tricks, and that Terminator Shield Captain was wounding my big nids on 2+ (sick), but only being able to do D2 per hit really hurt him. That and the lack of heavy weapons probably as well.
Overall, I think Carnifex (name your flavor) are going to be the new SM Dreads and the Haruspex the new “Distraction Carnifex”. All those -1D +5 invun bodies that are fairly cheap, can go along way. Using the breakthrough strat every turn was awesome as well. That was 30pts of MW that made a huge difference, even though some of them did get stopped by the built in Custodes 6+ FNP.
Can’t wait to fine tune this sucker. I think I’m going to use more Carnifex next game. Maybe 3 more Screamer Killers or 3 Stone Crushers.
I am pretty sure Swarm Leader can not be used on monsters. Don’t have the books on me to double check
Lord Blackscale wrote: Is there any way to make Crusher Stampede work without the FW models? As I understand I would need some hive guard, but what about monsters? Mellee carnifex and tyranifexes? Do trygons have a place?
To answer that question Lord Blackscale, I played a game yesterday with Stampede against Custodes and took 82-35 win. Also note, I did NOT use Hive Guard in this list. I think Tyrannofex with some Leviathan combos make him pretty deadly.
I’ve keep seeing all these Stampede lists on You Tube battle reports and here on Dakka with like 50% or more Forge World models in the list. I wanted to prove to myself that that Stampede doesn’t need Forge World to be competitive. So I built this list for a start. In my mind, having that -1D and 5+ inv is plenty enough to make just the GW plastics all you need.
Army of Renown Crusher Stampede (Leviathan)
Battalion
My opponent’s secondaries were Bring it Down, Behind Enemy Lines and Abhor the Witch
I got 1st turn and never looked back. Ran everything I had towards the objectives with the exception of Tyrannofex, Flyrant, Swarmlord and one Haruspex. I put used the Swarm Leader ability on the Tyrannofex and also Bioweapon Bond for the +1 to hit. Took out the Contemptor Dread in the 1st round. I Hive commander the Haruspex with Murderous Size and charge him right into some guardians. Only ended up killing two of the three, but that’s OK because now he’s stuck. On his turn one his stance was Salvus and formed up a gun line. I think that was the big mistake at the beginning of the game for him. I took some hits, and lost a couple warriors. Turn 2 I drop the Tyrannocyte with 2nd Haruspex, then just proceeded to tangle up everything in combat after turn 2 just collecting points. Proceeded to kill Trajan and his Warden Guard with 2 Screamer Killers and Flyrant by turn 3. I was under the assumption that’s what the Custodes are supposed to do. I just beat him to the punch I suppose. My opponent did have some really bad rolls go against him, but I honestly don’t think it would have mattered. Custodes have some really cool new tricks, and that Terminator Shield Captain was wounding my big nids on 2+ (sick), but only being able to do D2 per hit really hurt him. That and the lack of heavy weapons probably as well.
Overall, I think Carnifex (name your flavor) are going to be the new SM Dreads and the Haruspex the new “Distraction Carnifex”. All those -1D +5 invun bodies that are fairly cheap, can go along way. Using the breakthrough strat every turn was awesome as well. That was 30pts of MW that made a huge difference, even though some of them did get stopped by the built in Custodes 6+ FNP.
Can’t wait to fine tune this sucker. I think I’m going to use more Carnifex next game. Maybe 3 more Screamer Killers or 3 Stone Crushers.
I am pretty sure Swarm Leader can not be used on monsters. Don’t have the books on me to double check
You'd be correct. It can't. Infantry, Swarms or Beasts only.
So that's the big problem. The Swarm Leader trait only really works with Hive Guard for shooting support. Bioweapon Bond however CAN be pushed across to Monsters. Warriors are better backline babysitters for T-fexes and Exocrines for this reason (plus you don't have to daisy chain the radius of Bioweapon bond if you have a mid sized brood sitting with them on an objective.I believe that unit can still Recover Data as well making them doubly useful for it.
It looks like fun but I think it would not work in a competitive setting. Lists with any decent amount of shooting that get first turn can take you out. I play thousand sons with 10 terminators and in combination with mortal wounds, I can take out 4 MC each turn. Also shooty orks with waagh can really bring in the pain.
The forgeworld models work better because they're faster, ignore terrain and got toughness 8. Carnifexes and haruspex need an extra turn to get in close combat and the cannot affort that.
Decent shooting will work versus any army to be fair. I'd love to see that 10 Terminator thing be consistent. As for FW models, the aim for me is to not rely on them, not to mention I don't own any of them. I think a competitive list is out there, it just doesn't need FW to do it. In my opinion, double Dima and Harridan is expensive, waaaay overkill for the use of breakthrough strat and BORING. Not to mention Stampede is GOING to struggle with less bodies anyway, especially with these new 2022 missions coming out.
I tryed to run the numbers on the carnifex VS a dreadnought. And I love both models very much, but nether really show up in lists.
A carnifex with enchanted sences, two deathspitters and a sett of scything tallons is comparable to a dreadnought with assault cannon and powerfist.
The carnifex with 2 deathspitters is S7, 6 shots range 24. The assault cannon is S6 heavy 6 range 24. Scything tallons are S6 WS4. The dreadnought is dreadnought weapon S12.
That carnifex is 120, the dreadnought is 120.
But in a crusher stampede list the carnifex is - 1 damage, and a 5++. While a regular dreadnought does not see play, it is consievable that the 5++ is enough to justefy the carnifex as playable. Of course we have build him bad. Giving them spore cyst for the - 1 to hit him and not mix weapon profiles can make him even better.
The shooting from Carnifexes is underwhelming unless double guns with buffs. The deathspitters only seem to vaguely out-perform against T7 3+ (tanks) otherwise they're worse vs all other infantry targets and infantry targets are what the dakkafexes go for (right?). Devourers will deal 3.6 MEQ wounds or 6.7 T3 4+ wounds (unsupported), Deathspitters will deal less.
The dual MST's, horns and bone mace give a nice 6+1 attacks, hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's for that sweet 88% to-hit (unsupported). With AP and damage to be threatening. 115pt wrecking ball, the ultimate distraction carnifex. It is slower than (some of) the bigger boys, and only str 6, though various strategems can allow it to punch above its weight.
I *think* the above is better than the bio-flail stone-crusher, the extra AP & damage really topping things out. The wrecker claws insane Str14 D5 damage out-perform the dual MST's against tough targets, especially ones with -1D.
Dreadnoughts aren't a great comparison; the (good) generalist ones have good melee and shooting profiles (redemptors) and cost much more. The focused ones tend to be cheaper but focus on one role... or suffer the same problem with Jack of all trades, master of none.
In other news, I'm sad about the heft price hike on Hive Guard & Dima's. The Hive guard will likely stay, the Dima seems just too expensive for their "ignores terrain" leaping ability, whcih seems to me as the main draw? Please educate me if I'm missing something more fundemental.
In other news, I'm sad about the heft price hike on Hive Guard & Dima's. The Hive guard will likely stay, the Dima seems just too expensive for their "ignores terrain" leaping ability, whcih seems to me as the main draw? Please educate me if I'm missing something more fundemental.
Uh, the Dima has a LOT going for it. Ignoring terrain is a bonus really.
18 wounds, 3+/5++ save and -1 Damage if in a Crusher Stampede (which effectively doubles its wounds vs Damage 2 or Damage D3 weapons). a source of Mortal Wounds and a bucketload of attacks with rerolls and fairly decent damage.
Thunderous Impact or Breaking Through Stratagems add even more to it and to be quite honest, with the D3 attacks psychic power and Breaking Through this thing can go to town on a big Monster or Vehicle.The Dima's only real downside is the fact it costs £100 from FW.
Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote: Decent shooting will work versus any army to be fair.
Don't get me wrong, I always liked the tyranid MC-lists. I'am actually looking for a way to play the 3x flying hive tyrant list and swarmlord.
But a competitive army either needs to go for the kill or don't mind what get's killed and simply win objectives. Most games are decided at the end of turn 3 and a slow moving carnifex/haruspex close combat army is just lining up to get murdered. You don't really deal any damage and cannot maintain objectives. In a casual setting? Sure go for it.
Niiai wrote:I tryed to run the numbers on the carnifex VS a dreadnought........ While a regular dreadnought does not see play, it is consievable that the 5++ is enough to justefy the carnifex as playable.
This is Niiai saying: Dreadnoughts don't see play so the suck... but the carnifex is better so that makes them playable.... great tactical insight... wow..
Hearing other people talk about the Dima their main feature is is movement. The fact that they base is smaller and they can actually jump over things to reach the targets is great. They do have the feel no pain rule if you can activate it. But they are T7 and S8. And they are in fast attack with is huge.
The Scythed hierodule is cheaper. Has a very good flamer. T8 and S10. But they get terrain blocked. And in a crusher stampede they too have 5++.
In other news, I'm sad about the heft price hike on Hive Guard & Dima's. The Hive guard will likely stay, the Dima seems just too expensive for their "ignores terrain" leaping ability, whcih seems to me as the main draw? Please educate me if I'm missing something more fundemental.
Uh, the Dima has a LOT going for it. Ignoring terrain is a bonus really.
18 wounds, 3+/5++ save and -1 Damage if in a Crusher Stampede (which effectively doubles its wounds vs Damage 2 or Damage D3 weapons). a source of Mortal Wounds and a bucketload of attacks with rerolls and fairly decent damage.
Thunderous Impact or Breaking Through Stratagems add even more to it and to be quite honest, with the D3 attacks psychic power and Breaking Through this thing can go to town on a big Monster or Vehicle.The Dima's only real downside is the fact it costs £100 from FW.
I mean as compared to its rival, the scythed hierodule. Which then equates to some mortal wound potential and possible FNP offset by lower toughness and a lack of a range 3D6 spray.
So the main difference between the two is the movement, I agree with Niial - it was worth the difference before the increase but after.. its just too expensive to justify. The T8 scythed is a bigger, better distraction carnifex that also murders everything.
I'll take my mobility with harpies and winged hive tyrants.
I do not agree that it murders everything. It murders most things. Spray VS chaff and scythes VS stronger things. However with so few attacks it can be really swingy if you run into a good invunerable save. Last game I wounded 5 deathshroud terminators. But he made 4 out of 5 saves as they save on 4+. While the probababikty are good for a nice outcome the few dice means the bell curve can be very swingy.
Hive tyrant is probably the premiere long ranged missile these days. Since they move 16 it is probably better then the Dima to reach a good target. But it is not as killy.
The other thing you Hierodule pushers are forgetting...
Is the fact the Dima sits in a Fast Attack slot.
Our Heavy Support is already crowded enough - Carnifexes, Stonecrusher Fexes, Exocrines, T-Fexes, Hierodules, Biovores, Trygons and Mawlocs.
And if the Spearhead detachment had a command bonus of refunding the CP spent to buy the detachment, that wouldn't be so much of a problem as we could just take multiple spearheads... but it doesn't.
So particularly with Crusher stampede - viable options in OTHER Force Org slots matters. A lot.
Our Fast Attack options are surprisingly sparse with Raveners being the other option. Having a Monster there is nice. Having yet another Monster in Heavy Support, not so much.
And other Force Org slots matter, since our Elites kind of just got slapped hard with Hive Guard copping 5ppm and Lictors no longer doing Lictor tricks like they used to due to the new objectives.
No I said they where in fast attack and that is huge.
I can not justefy it as the new price. He was already a glass cannon at T7.
On a less constructive note I have no idea why 'all our monsters' are in heavy support. Ideally mawlocks could be fast attack. Their weapons are even D1. Trygon could also be there as transports. Perhaps we could even justefy carnifexes is elites. Fingers crossed for 2023.
So I am planning on giving GSC a try as <= 25% with my beloved Nids...and I had a thought. The new retrieve data mission can fail. It requires a D6 roll to not exceed the number of models, Troops add +1.
This nerfs Lictors like crazy....but MCU cultists are cheap, And like to pop up in weird places...? If this does not work out I suppose I can use MCU Stealers, as that is my "go to" solution right now.
I guess Crusher armies will use Mawlocs? or tunelling Warriors?
pinecone77 wrote: So I am planning on giving GSC a try as <= 25% with my beloved Nids...and I had a thought. The new retrieve data mission can fail. It requires a D6 roll to not exceed the number of models, Troops add +1.
This nerfs Lictors like crazy....but MCU cultists are cheap, And like to pop up in weird places...? If this does not work out I suppose I can use MCU Stealers, as that is my "go to" solution right now.
I guess Crusher armies will use Mawlocs? or tunelling Warriors?
I foresee Raveners for that roll. It would be a plus if the rumor is true about free weapon load outs.
pinecone77 wrote: So I am planning on giving GSC a try as <= 25% with my beloved Nids...and I had a thought. The new retrieve data mission can fail. It requires a D6 roll to not exceed the number of models, Troops add +1.
This nerfs Lictors like crazy....but MCU cultists are cheap, And like to pop up in weird places...? If this does not work out I suppose I can use MCU Stealers, as that is my "go to" solution right now.
Hoping that the new codex the Lictors will be a brood again. Soooooo stupid they went singular.
I guess Crusher armies will use Mawlocs? or tunelling Warriors?
I foresee Raveners for that roll. It would be a plus if the rumor is true about free weapon load outs.
I do bieve you loose the GSC crossfire if you include nids. Only BB have the 25%.
I have not seen the new missions. Some of them also include actions that might be a problem for CS. Or so the rumours I heard.
GSC obviously are good at secondaries. But I suspect the humble gaunt will as well. I do not know if gargoyles can do actions? Depends on the action I suppose. But for crusher stampede we have the humble 5 man tyranid warrior squad for 85 points.
pinecone77 wrote: So I am planning on giving GSC a try as <= 25% with my beloved Nids...and I had a thought. The new retrieve data mission can fail. It requires a D6 roll to not exceed the number of models, Troops add +1.
This nerfs Lictors like crazy....but MCU cultists are cheap, And like to pop up in weird places...? If this does not work out I suppose I can use MCU Stealers, as that is my "go to" solution right now.
I guess Crusher armies will use Mawlocs? or tunelling Warriors?
I foresee Raveners for that roll. It would be a plus if the rumor is true about free weapon load outs.
If the free weapons on Raveners is confirmed then at their point mark and the sheer number of wounds they have, yeah, dropping 250 points on 2 broods of 6 for shenanigans is worth it. Warriors in larger broods are still worth it as well as unlike conventional 'nid armies Crushers get that wonderful 5++, which tbh is something we've ALL wanted for years - all the way back to 3rd ed 40k.
3rd and 4th ed were odd as the issues were Instant Death and a lack of Invulns to protect us from Krak/Melta spam. 4th introduced immunity to ED but at 2 wounds it was meh. Then we lost it and got 3 wounds, but again, meh without ED immunity.... and then when ID ceased being a thing as it was we got a bit better in 8th. Crusher Warriors are just our dreads realised 6 editions later and it just feels nice tbh.
People are quite split on warriors. Ravaners usually where bad warriors. They trade 4+, troops and synapse for 5+ and move 12. They also have worse stratagem support.
In CS they have 5++. Also, the latest points upgrade forgot giving them points for upgrades. Meaning one without a gun cost as one with deathspitters.
Niiai wrote: In CS they have 5++. Also, the latest points upgrade forgot giving them points for upgrades. Meaning one without a gun cost as one with deathspitters.
Wait, is that in the new CA 2022? Or where are you getting that from? Because 5-man units of raveners with deathspitters at 100 points look delicious for the new Retrieve Data mission
Niiai wrote: It is from a video depicting the points changes in the new book.
I think everybody in the Nid commuaty expect it to be a typo.
Yeah, I suspect that basic weapons were meant to be "free" (included) but upgrades (Deathspitters) should be extra cost. My "issue" with Raveners was they out run their Synapse, and out of Synapse, they are not as good.
Warhammer Community wrote:This isn’t just an exciting time for Aeldari, but for all Warhammer 40,000 xenos players – after the craftworlds touch down, there’s something gribbly and chitinous coming. We don’t want to say too much right now, but there are lots of them, they’ve come a long way, and they’re VERY hungry. For biomass. Okay, you forced it out of us – it’s the Tyranids.
Warhammer Community wrote:This isn’t just an exciting time for Aeldari, but for all Warhammer 40,000 xenos players – after the craftworlds touch down, there’s something gribbly and chitinous coming. We don’t want to say too much right now, but there are lots of them, they’ve come a long way, and they’re VERY hungry. For biomass. Okay, you forced it out of us – it’s the Tyranids.
It is kinda hilarious that the entire CSM player-base is having a simultaneous aneurysm.
Even though they are going to have a confirmed large release while, sadly, Tyranids are likely to be a modest one as GW doesn't do large releases back to back.
Tyran wrote: It is kinda hilarious that the entire CSM player-base is having a simultaneous aneurysm.
Even though they are going to have a confirmed large release while, sadly, Tyranids are likely to be a modest one as GW doesn't do large releases back to back.
I'd rather it switch up-give CSM the next slot with one or two models, but update the damn rules (TWO WOUNDS, PLEASE!) and then give Nids a big model release, but a little later.
The only model I can think of that really needs a refresh is Mutilators.
Tyran wrote: Surprising as Tyranids were not featured in the leaks at all.
Maybe our book was moved up in response to tournament over-performance after Octavius? Most of our nasty stuff is a combination of extra action stratagems (move, fight, shoot) stacked with the newer buffs. Releasing a new book will wipe out everything but the Leviathan supplement and maybe the Crusher Stampede.
We know we have Shrikes coming from the preview video if nothing else. The hooked and prehensile pincer tail rumor engine images might belong to the Shrikes, but those could also belong to redone Lictors and the Red Terror respectively. I also keep reading that there is supposedly a gaunt-genus refresh but I don't see anything to hint towards that (unless there is a new variants that specializes in tail weapons?).
The only model I can think of that really needs a refresh is Mutilators.
I don't play Chaos, but off the top of my head:
Bersekers
Noise Marines (currently stuck with an upgrade kit that may or may not work with the new CSM models)
Defiler
Possessed Marines
Lucius
H Blackheart
Chaos Spawn
Mutilators
Not a refresh per say, but they could also benefit from an individual release for
Cultists (it is admittedly easy to kitbash or borrow from Necromunda, but a dedicated kit would probably be good for them).
the Venom Crawler
Obliterators
Tyran wrote: Surprising as Tyranids were not featured in the leaks at all.
Maybe our book was moved up in response to tournament over-performance after Octavius? Most of our nasty stuff is a combination of extra action stratagems (move, fight, shoot) stacked with the newer buffs. Releasing a new book will wipe out everything but the Leviathan supplement and maybe the Crusher Stampede.
We know we have Shrikes coming from the preview video if nothing else. The hooked and prehensile pincer tail rumor engine images might belong to the Shrikes, but those could also belong to redone Lictors and the Red Terror respectively. I also keep reading that there is supposedly a gaunt-genus refresh but I don't see anything to hint towards that (unless there is a new variants that specializes in tail weapons?).
The only model I can think of that really needs a refresh is Mutilators.
I don't play Chaos, but off the top of my head:
Bersekers
Noise Marines (currently stuck with an upgrade kit that may or may not work with the new CSM models)
Defiler
Possessed Marines
Lucius
H Blackheart
Chaos Spawn
Given that they've teased us with Eldar and Eldar are looking to be about early-Mid February...(box this weekend - codex next or the weekend after?)
I'd hazard a guess at March.
Given that this didn't appear in any rumours I strongly suspect this is going to be a very quick slot release that could be slapped in with an Eldar Week 2-3 if need be.
And it's not like they haven't even released multiple codexes at the same time or within a week or two of eachother.... looking back at the past 4 - 5 releases...
We know we have Shrikes coming from the preview video if nothing else. The hooked and prehensile pincer tail rumor engine images might belong to the Shrikes, but those could also belong to redone Lictors and the Red Terror respectively. I also keep reading that there is supposedly a gaunt-genus refresh but I don't see anything to hint towards that (unless there is a new variants that specializes in tail weapons?).
I missed the Shrike return rumor. That is excellent news, they were something of a backbone to my gribbly hordes, and the lose of them hurt quite a bit.
One frail hope I have is that The Shadow will be good again, not just for Kronos... Maybe always able to Deny if in the Shadow, you know because Hive Mind...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Shrikes would be sweeeet!
I missed the Shrike return rumor. That is excellent news, they were something of a backbone to my gribbly hordes, and the lose of them hurt quite a bit.
I don't think it was rumored anywhere. They showed up in the 2022 upcoming model teaser video GW posted awhile ago.
Spoiler:
It looks like they are going to be a bit like a cross between the Winged Tyrant and Raveners visually, with the lower legs being replaced with another set of arms. Looks like they will have Lashwhips as an option for the lower limbs, but it blurs too much to make out what is in the middle pair of limbs (upper pair is the wings).
Edit: Hmm, looking at the second picture a bit closer it looks like the model has Spinefists in its middle limbs, possibly making the lower limbs a lash whip and bonesword combo.
Double shoot is definitely gone, probably +1 to hit as well, but obviously it got improved BS baked in and the number of shots while not quite as many as double shooting got us is still high, and better quality than before.
Scything talon carnifexes not looking great. Even if they get a better S than tyrants, they're going to be down to D2 instead of 3.... I was really hoping the plus sized scything talons were going to get dual profiles like a lot of other large melee weapons on walkers have, it could still happen for massive talons but it would have been nice for monstrous talons too.
Yeah I'm less concerned with what we're getting, and more worried about what we're losing.
Tyrannofex to LoW status? Possible.
Hive Guard shooting without LoS? That's gonna be a strat.
Any weapon that isn't part of a specific kit? Gonesky! Say goodbye to Tyrant Deathspitters and Devourers.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah I'm less concerned with what we're getting, and more worried about what we're losing.
Tyrannofex to LoW status? Possible.
Hive Guard shooting without LoS? That's gonna be a strat.
Any weapon that isn't part of a specific kit? Gonesky! Say goodbye to Tyrant Deathspitters and Devourers.
I hope we get a new plastic LOW.
I don't mind loosing out of LOS shooting.IMO it sould be in the game except for maybe mortars and in a casual games its often a feels bad situation.
I think we will keep the Deathspitters and Devourers on tyrants and other stuff.
We are already getting alot of stuff, much more 2+ AS, T8, more attacks +3 on the SL.
Carny is almost in one of the worst places in the army line up
It WAS the go-to generalist big bug that did all the general tanky big monster roles.
However right now we've got a lot of specialist even bigger models that do those roles better. Or at least have the potential to do so as they are dedicated toward those specific roles. The Haurspex is a dedicated close combat monster; the Exocrine dedicated artillery etc...
Meanwhile Warriors fill the role of a cheaper generalist unit of models that can, again, fill those slots.
Carny is kind of in the middle and its tricky. Make it too weak to protect the big bugs and it ends up an expensive warrior; make it too strong and it infringes upon the big bugs. It's basically gone from a heavyweight to a middleweight in the army and seems to be flitting between its old style of a single powerhouse to almost a small squad based model. Strong in small groups instead of strong on their own.
It's a change that reflects how much bigger and diverse the army has become that the once king of tough outside of the Hive Tyrant, is now stepping down a bit.
Overread wrote: It's a change that reflects how much bigger and diverse the army has become that the once king of tough outside of the Hive Tyrant, is now stepping down a bit.
I completely agree with what you've said about the Carnifex and it's place within the Tyranid roster.
But it should still be tougher than a frickin' Rhino!!!
Rhino: T7 W10 Sv3+
Carnifex (now): T7 W8 Sv3+
Carnifex (what it should be): T8 W12 Sv2+ and perhaps with some kind of shrug.
I would have even been happy with no save in the entire 'Dex being higher than 3+ except on the Carnifex. That should have the best armour. Now I fear that with all the big bugs going to 2+, the 'Fex will continue to exist within this limbo state, even if it gets a 2+ save.
Well, my Hope is that the Carnifex becomes our Dreadnought monster...keep the 3+, add in a carapace upgrade to 2+ keep all the goofy mods currently available, and build your own. Add in Screamer-killer Plasma as a option, and it's all "good".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh. but drop the price of the base bug...so they can build out without being a "trap"...
This is merely my own thoughts, but I kinda like that the Carnifex has single-digit wounds because of the damage table that comes with 10+. A Carnifex will keep fighting on to the bitter end at full effectiveness regardless of how much damage it has suffered while other monsters do feel the effects of injury.
I do think the main problem with the Carnifex isn't that it isn't tough enough (relative to other things in its weight class - classic Dreadnaughts, Wraithlords, and Kans), it just doesn't hit hard enough in melee or shooting to really justify the cost. I think the Crusher Stampede kinda underscores this, as it cranks defense up considerably and Carnifexes still don't see a huge amount of play in it.
Strat_N8 wrote: This is merely my own thoughts, but I kinda like that the Carnifex has single-digit wounds because of the damage table that comes with 10+. A Carnifex will keep fighting on to the bitter end at full effectiveness regardless of how much damage it has suffered while other monsters do feel the effects of injury.
I do think the main problem with the Carnifex isn't that it isn't tough enough (relative to other things in its weight class - classic Dreadnaughts, Wraithlords, and Kans), it just doesn't hit hard enough in melee or shooting to really justify the cost. I think the Crusher Stampede kinda underscores this, as it cranks defense up considerably and Carnifexes still don't see a huge amount of play in it.
I’ve actually been using the Carnifex a lot since Crusher Stampede with some good success. I’ll usually play a brood of three Screamer Killers and another brood of some combination of shooty Carnifex. This really makes it tough for your opponent and gives them a headache. It’s not quite the 4-5 marine dread lists, but it still pretty damn effective. And don’t believe the negative replies of “too slow” or “he gets shot off the table.” Yeah that’s true for one maybe two at a time...but 6 to 8...yeah have fun with that.
I agree that the Carnifex should stay under 10 wounds, but I don’t necessarily think the Toughness should be 8. I think 7 is perfectly fine since it’s kinda playing the roll of the sudo marine dread these days. Having the -1D and 5++ is a great start, but if you really want to shake things up, his stats should go back to the olden days of S10 and weapon skills of 7+ (which would translate to 2+) and a 2+ save. That’s what made the Carnifex sooooo brutal back in 2nd and 3rd. This would also be consistent with the lore of ripping Rhinos and Leman Russ tanks in two. His attacks are good at 4, but maybe increasing his base damage from 3 to say 4 would be great too, but not OP. I seriously don’t think the Screamer Killer or Base Monstrous Scything Talons get the respect they deserve.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah I'm less concerned with what we're getting, and more worried about what we're losing.
Tyrannofex to LoW status? Possible.
Hive Guard shooting without LoS? That's gonna be a strat.
Any weapon that isn't part of a specific kit? Gonesky! Say goodbye to Tyrant Deathspitters and Devourers.
I hope we get a new plastic LOW.
I don't mind loosing out of LOS shooting.IMO it sould be in the game except for maybe mortars and in a casual games its often a feels bad situation.
I think we will keep the Deathspitters and Devourers on tyrants and other stuff.
We are already getting alot of stuff, much more 2+ AS, T8, more attacks +3 on the SL.
haruspex:
Spoiler:
I hope this is all true about the Haurspex since I own three!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah I'm less concerned with what we're getting, and more worried about what we're losing.
Tyrannofex to LoW status? Possible.
Hive Guard shooting without LoS? That's gonna be a strat.
Any weapon that isn't part of a specific kit? Gonesky! Say goodbye to Tyrant Deathspitters and Devourers.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think anyone expecting more than Single Miniature/Codex/Cards/Dice is setting themselves up for disappointment.
Even Valkrak seemed to indicate that we were getting the Parasite of Mortex + new Gaunts.
That being said, if this is a small release, which signs appear to point to, I think that adds to the speculation that Nids may be the big bad for 10th down the line with a large refresh like Crons got.
Sasori wrote: Even Valkrak seemed to indicate that we were getting the Parasite of Mortex + new Gaunts.
He's also been saying that the new Horus Heresy was any day now. Guy's about as reliable as Doomcock.
Sasori wrote: That being said, if this is a small release, which signs appear to point to, I think that adds to the speculation that Nids may be the big bad for 10th down the line with a large refresh like Crons got.
For what it is worth the Haruspex and Exocrine are probably one of the easiest creatures to magnetize since the main difference is the head (which is one piece for both) and first pair of limbs. I have 1 magnetized and 1 of each build as-is.
I do think it is probably best to wait before committing to one or the other since there are a lot of unknowns. The biggest one for me is whether the Haruspex will stay as an Elites choice, given the Riptide was shifted from Elites to Heavy Support in the new Tau book and was previously a monster with similar wound count (if greater size overall). As an Elite it has niche benefit of giving another monster in a less congested slot (like the Malceptor) but as a Heavy it will have to compete with almost all of our fire support options.
If you must build one now (pre book), the Exocrine has always been the stronger of the two in each book since they first released so it is probably a safe bet.
more nid leaks/rumors
Synaptic Links are changing to once per game effects that work on every unit within 6" of a Synapse Unit.
- Zoanthropes give 4++ to Synapse and 5++ to non-Synapse.
- Tervigon link gives +2" movement
- All other units have changed Links.
A lot of buffs trigger off the Synapse keyword (Warriors are insane)
Unit Changes:
Swarmlord - Loses Hive Commander and 3++. Gains Chapter Master Re-rolls and gives a unit Obsec.
Hive Tyrant - Captain Re-rolls aura.
Tervigon - +1 to hit for Termagants in range (don't know what). If there is a 15+ model Termagant unit within 1" of her she is untargetable.
Termagants - Devourers are garbage now. Fleshborers go to 18" Assault 1 S5 AP1 D1
Tyranid Warriors - S5/T5 base. Access to -1D strat in all phases. Can get to A4 S8 AP2 D2.
Wargear Changes:
Boneswords - S+2 AP2 D2
Adrenal Glands - +1S/+1Mv
[9:02 AM]
Oh yeah also just for you guys: leviathan gives non-synapse units mini-transhuman (can't be wounded on 2s) and actual synapse units true transhuman
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have been painting some Tyrant Guard with Bonesabre/ Lashwhip recently in hopes that it would be useful...maybe it will be
I do not like giving up unique and fun mechanics for another rerolls bot. And losing 3++ sucks but doesn't matter as much in a world full of ignore invulnerable saves units/weapons. Not a fan of the new synapse links, but will reserve judgment right now.
Well the leaks are a leaking. They show the cover art for the Codex, so I am guessing it is all done, and the new patrol box is out. A Tyrant, three Warriors and a passel of Gaunts (termas). Looks like a good purchase for getting started, so well done!
pinecone77 wrote: Well the leaks are a leaking. They show the cover art for the Codex, so I am guessing it is all done, and the new patrol box is out. A Tyrant, three Warriors and a passel of Gaunts (termas). Looks like a good purchase for getting started, so well done!
Book including cover have been done for a very long time
Given the leaks/rumors with CSM and how you can no longer can equip units with options not in the box, does this mean HT with quad devourers will no longer be valid?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Given the leaks/rumors with CSM and how you can no longer can equip units with options not in the box, does this mean HT with quad devourers will no longer be valid?
I can almost guarantee 100% that it will not have any options in the box. Which is really sad, but at this point I would be shocked if it was the other way around.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Given the leaks/rumors with CSM and how you can no longer can equip units with options not in the box, does this mean HT with quad devourers will no longer be valid?
It might be so, that is why magnets are your friends. Fortunatly my only glued Big Bug is my winged assassain with Bone Swords. Have only regreted that for a short time, when I wanted the ginormous talons...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tac Tortise has some new leaks on Warriors...short form: Melee good shooting not so...need to see the full rules to know. But Rending claws are back! +1 S -4 AP is liget, if cheap. Also Spine fists might be a good "toss onto" choice again, this is more important for Raveners, as I used to toss spine fists onto them back in the day, so it would be nice if they make a come back.
Saw some more leaks. It looks like Toxin glands are usable again, and thus Gorgon might be playable. My hope is any Hive Fleet/Tendril is fully playable.
The codex has been leaked. I think only crusade rules are still missing.
pinecone77 wrote: Saw some more leaks. It looks like Toxin glands are usable again, and thus Gorgon might be playable. My hope is any Hive Fleet/Tendril is fully playable.
I think so, although if the supplement is still legal then leviathan is still the strongest one by far.
Toxin sacs just straight up being autowound on 6's to hit is awsome. There is even a relic toxin sac that lets you auto-wound on any hit.
Gorgon and Hydra are playable again.
Jormy is still kinda meh, as it benefits an infantry shooting list the most and thats not something we want to base an entire army on. Heavy cover is really only useful on warriors/tyrant guard for instance.
Leviathan Warriors with transnid, a 5++ from the Zoanthrope imperative, 5+++ from catalyst, light cover from Broodlord Imperative (use leviathan psychic power), -1S from Maleceptor and -1D from stratagem.
Looking at the leak, it looks like Gorgon boosts shooting as well if you have Toxin sacks....that just might make Termagant Devourers useful... Or Spinefists?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Carnifexen look playable, and Screamer Killers look Good It looks like there will be several winning builds available as most every unit has a use.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, thinking of a list.... Swarmy, and three Tyrant Guard two Sabre whip, one scything talons to tank wounds....some Warriors with Hth load, and a Prime as a free slot. Then add some shooting, and some MSU Stealers?
Hard to say, Maybe fill in Screamer-Killers, and a Plasma shooting Big Bug, or a Tyranno with Acid
Battalion: Swarmy, Neuro, Winged Assassin
Zoey x3 Veno x3, Stealer Brood
Warriors, Bone Sabres x4? Or Devourers, and Sabres...?+ Prime (Brood size 6-9) Adrenal Glands
Behemoth, Levithan and Jormungandr are looking very strong. Gorgon looks great now that the default gives poison to melee and ranged weapons.
The only subfaction I'm not sold on is Kronos. Gorgon honestly just seems better.
The adaptive traits are super strong. Being able to pick after deployment and knowing who goes first is huge. WLT look strong, a few Relics look strong. Tons of internal balance. The codex is looking like it's going to be a smash hit.
Tyran wrote: Pyrovores or Raveners for fast attack, both units are kinda insane.
Morale is a big problem for Raveners. I think there's plenty of good S5-6 melee output in the army that doesn't have to be Synapse babysat to avoid taking morale losses 33+% of the time whenever they lose at least one model.
Tyran wrote: Pyrovores or Raveners for fast attack, both units are kinda insane.
Morale is a big problem for Raveners. I think there's plenty of good S5-6 melee output in the army that doesn't have to be Synapse babysat to avoid taking morale losses 33+% of the time whenever they lose at least one model.
Use augmented ferocity (hunt Biomorphologie) for +1 charge.
Could use 'shard lure' stratagem for extra d6 charge against enemy unit (hit with shooting attack from a synapse creature)
Lictor pops up and unit(s) of spore mines deepstrike near...
Lictor charge juicy enemy unit with +1 and reroll charge.. (and possible extra d6 from shard lure)
Lictor gets in close combat and use the pheromon trail stratagem (other units get +2 charge against that enemy unit)
spore mines charge with +3 charge and possible extra d6 from shard lure.
Don't know how the are going to update the forgeworld meiotic spores, and how the current spore mine rules work, but could be cool...
Hey guys, what do you think of this build? I wanted to share it here, rather than in army list section, to discuss tactics and maybe develope it further.
Tactics:
Biovores and rippers deploy on home objectives, lictors deep strike behind enemy lines and do some action. Tervigons and termagants advance in flanks and provide firesupport. Warriors, zoanthropes, exocrine and tyrant deploy at the middle and move midfield. The parasite of mortrex is a distraction unit.
I've got psychic imperative for every turn to use, my plan is to use zoanthrope's warp shielding, if I go second, and tervigon's movement boost if I go first.
CP allocation (17 during the course of game)
- 1 for extra trait
- 5x1 for endless swarm (every turn, bring back 3+d3 gaunts)
- 5x1 for relentless flurry (every turn, exploding sixes when shooting)
- 5x1 for additional cast (every turn, zoanthropes cast hive nexus and smite)
- 1 reserved for void in the warp (deny on 4+)
- extras generated by relic can be used for rerolls
Tyran wrote: Leviathan Warriors with transnid, a 5++ from the Zoanthrope imperative, 5+++ from catalyst, light cover from Broodlord Imperative (use leviathan psychic power), -1S from Maleceptor and -1D from stratagem.
Am I missing any other defensive buff?
I think venom thropes aura might be in there somewhere.
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, what do you think of this build? I wanted to share it here, rather than in army list section, to discuss tactics and maybe develope it further.
Tactics:
Biovores and rippers deploy on home objectives, lictors deep strike behind enemy lines and do some action. Tervigons and termagants advance in flanks and provide firesupport. Warriors, zoanthropes, exocrine and tyrant deploy at the middle and move midfield. The parasite of mortrex is a distraction unit.
I've got psychic imperative for every turn to use, my plan is to use zoanthrope's warp shielding, if I go second, and tervigon's movement boost if I go first.
CP allocation (17 during the course of game)
- 1 for extra trait
- 5x1 for endless swarm (every turn, bring back 3+d3 gaunts)
- 5x1 for relentless flurry (every turn, exploding sixes when shooting)
- 5x1 for additional cast (every turn, zoanthropes cast hive nexus and smite)
- 1 reserved for void in the warp (deny on 4+)
- extras generated by relic can be used for rerolls
I think the damage output is pretty low. Against soft enemy armylists you could simply win the mission but any decent shooting list can take you out fairy quick. Tyranids got some tough units now but the cannot walk slowly towards the enemy for 3 turns.
Hey, thanks for the reply, I mostly play with my friend who does not field much of the shooting, but I usually try to make lists competitive, so I could see the point of that. The fleshborers are now more leathal, at 18" s5 ap-1, so I think they pose a decent threat to even knights. It may require more playtesting on their performance.
A blob of 2 tyrant guard units with hive tyrants, maleceptor, malanthrope and broodlord deploy mid field - deployment zone. Deploy the tyrant guard in light cover and activate broodlord synaptic imperative the got the following:
Jormungandr adaptation: count as dense cover outside 12 inch (-1 to hit)
extra adaptive: extra +1 save in cover
Broodlord synaptic imperative: light cover counts as heavy cover (+1 save in melee)
Keep them close to the malanthrope (-1 to hit)
First turn: Maleceptor possible -1 Strenght against shooting
So these tyrant guard got a 2+ save with 2 bonus saves. Who needs invulnerable saves! Don't know if the extra -1 to hit from the malanthrope is worth it but maybe it could work against Tau armies. -2 to hit with a +1 to hit from markerlights remains a -1 to hit.
First turn I can drop a Tyrannocyte with 5 tyrant guard mid field and cast the catalyst on them. The Hive tyrants fly towards these tyrant guards for protection and get ready for the next turn for an all out assault.
Possible moves:
boomerang Hive tyrant: fly towards the enemy, kill everything and use the 'Overrun stratagem' to move back towards the tyrant guard for protection.
Tyrannocyte: this is a synaptic creature and can shoot at a target. 'Shard lure' stratagem give any tyranid unit +d6 charge (pick the two highest) against that enemy unit.
The reaper of obliterax is sick!: Every wound is a +1 mortal wound and every attack allocated to a enemy unit cannot prevent wounds.
With lashwhip (reroll 1 to hit), Pincer Tail (reroll 1 hit or wound) and extra stratagem upgrades (+d3 attacks, reroll to wound, extra mortal wounds after charging...) this kills stuff!
I don't think that you can claim that the mortal wounds are also attacks/wounds that cannot get prevented. If this is the case then this model can remove 3 custodus bikes in one go!
Possible strategy: I might drop the scythes of tyran and go for the 'Dirgeheart of kharis' relic. I could pick territorial instinct adeptive and make monsterous creatures objective secured and with the relic I can switch off objective secured on a enemy unit (in close combat). This way I could keep scoring the objectives if I encounter armylist that really go for the objectives and try to ignore my units.
I have to give this a try!
EDIT: switched the WLT to another model
EDIT 2: corrected the heavy cover save bonus
Three bonus saves? You're maxing at +2 from ranged attacks when in a light cover terrain feature, and +2 from melee attacks when in light cover with the Broodlord imperative active or in actual hard cover.
Madjob wrote: Three bonus saves? You're maxing at +2 from ranged attacks when in a light cover terrain feature, and +2 from melee attacks when in light cover with the Broodlord imperative active or in actual hard cover.
Ah thats right! Never played a lot with heavy cover and always thought that it was a +1 save against shooting. But a +2 save in close combat is also good! Thanks!
If Leviathan supplement is still a thing, Hive Guard are still among the best things we can put the Chapter Master warlord trait (as it isn't Core locked).
Still, I would replace impaler cannons with shockcannons.
dreadlybrew wrote:Is everyone else going to proxy their now useless hive guard as tyrant guard?
I was initially disappointed by the nerfs, but one of my brothers pointed out they are still a slightly tougher gravis equivalent with a Druhkari disintegrator or better haywire blaster, so mine will probably still see use (if anything, might be able to see more use - my gaming group does not like Hive Guard so I have been using Exocrines instead).Their unique action to take up defensive positions to count as extra models for objectives has me a bit intrigued. In theory they will probably be rear midfield most of the time, so being able to count as 2-12 models (with option for objective secured via Leviathan) should make it harder to contest points they are guarding.
Incidentally, the move to heavy support will be a bit better for my "for fun" end-stage feeder swarm. Almost all of the organisms for the consumption/assimilation phase were in elites so it made it hard to include Hive Guard along with everything else (admittedly, the change to Rippers hurt, but it was generally using a Vanguard detachment anyway). Being in the heavy support slot eases a bit of competition for slots at least.
I think the Hive guard are just just expensive right now. If the Impaler didn't cost points, I'd consider it. Right now I think the Exocrene just does both verisons of Hive guards Job better, on a better platform.
They're not useless and with the statline bump it would just take some points costing changes to have them seen again. But the points + Nerfs to the impaler cannon seem to have been too much.
That being said, it and genestealers are really the only things I don't like in the new dex. I have so many options now I'm okay with Hive guard being nerfed.
I'm trying to decide if going a double patrol is worth it for 2 Hive Tyrants. My gut feeling right now is No, but having a walking and flying hive Tyrant is so incredibly good.
Nevelon wrote: I think “useless” is a bit harsh. ”not broken” is more in line. IMHO.
GW did the typical thing and overbalanced them, dramatically decreasing their lethality whilst also increasing their price. And put them in HS where they have better things to compete with.
If they'd just reduced their damage output then it would've been fine, but piling on everything else just added insult to injury and made a "auto-take" unit into a "I've got better things to spend my points on" unit. And yes, I know they made them a little tougher, but that hardly makes up for the nerfing they received.
Nevelon wrote: I think “useless” is a bit harsh. ”not broken” is more in line. IMHO.
GW did the typical thing and overbalanced them, dramatically decreasing their lethality whilst also increasing their price. And put them in HS where they have better things to compete with.
If they'd just reduced their damage output then it would've been fine, but piling on everything else just added insult to injury and made a "auto-take" unit into a "I've got better things to spend my points on" unit. And yes, I know they made them a little tougher, but that hardly makes up for the nerfing they received.
I agree that they went from “broken” to “sub-par” in the typical GW pendulum nerf.
People calling units “useless” is one of my pet-peaves. Often units are viewed through a binary lens: Broken and spamable for tournament play or useless. No shades of grey, no looking at what the unit can bring in corner cases, just black and white, yes or no.
Everything has pros and cons. Granted, not always in equal amounts. They may be overshadowed by other options, but they should still have a role they can play.
But by tarring a unit as “useless” you miss out on its potential.
Nevelon wrote: People calling units “useless” is one of my pet-peaves. Often units are viewed through a binary lens: Broken and spamable for tournament play or useless. No shades of grey, no looking at what the unit can bring in corner cases, just black and white, yes or no.
Everything has pros and cons. Granted, not always in equal amounts. They may be overshadowed by other options, but they should still have a role they can play.
But by tarring a unit as “useless” you miss out on its potential.
One, I never spammed them (I own 6!) and two, I don't play in tournaments.
And I can't figure out why I'd bring them in their current state. What purpose do they serve?
Nevelon wrote: People calling units “useless” is one of my pet-peaves. Often units are viewed through a binary lens: Broken and spamable for tournament play or useless. No shades of grey, no looking at what the unit can bring in corner cases, just black and white, yes or no.
Everything has pros and cons. Granted, not always in equal amounts. They may be overshadowed by other options, but they should still have a role they can play.
But by tarring a unit as “useless” you miss out on its potential.
One, I never spammed them (I own 6!) and two, I don't play in tournaments.
And I can't figure out why I'd bring them in their current state. What purpose do they serve?
Sorry, didn’t mean to single you out. As I said, “useless” units is one of my hot buttons.
I’ve not had a chance to digest the whole of the leaks and am still new to ’Nids, but at a glance:
The shock cannons do look like they could be fun in addition to the impalers
They are Infantry, which interacts differently than monsters in a number of situations
The defensive stance thing might have some advantages when camping and providing fire support (combined with infantry, good for parking in terrain on an objective?)
Smaller profile then big bugs, easier to hide
Ignoring cover/BS/hit mods might not be as major as when you could stack those through the roof, but it’s not nothing.
They have enough interesting parts that could be worked and leveraged. I’ve not dug into it enough to give you a ton of examples. Did they take enough hits to keep them out of top table lists? Probably. But I think they can be effective at their job, with some interesting perks. they are just not the hyper efficient killing machines they were.
Leviathan Shardgullet Flyrant with Perfectly Adapted seems like a fun time. Alternatively, Kraken instead of Leviathan and take Heightened Senses. Keep the Kraken adaptive for better advances so he can zoom around 19-22", it's an assault weapon and the full rerolls from Senses will help cover the shooting penalty.
Anyone have any thoughts on warrior loadouts? My printer is going be to going brrrr this weekend and I'm waffling between Double boneswords and scything talons, or Double swords and deathspitter.
Wonder if the +2 Adrenal Glands Relic is good for any character? Trygon of course works best with that auto-wound toxin sacs one. And Hive Tyrant gets those Scytals that are essentially boneswords with extra attacks.
dreadlybrew wrote: I am so ready for a drop pod haruspex with a 4+invuln. Its just going to be so hardcore
You and me BOTH brother!
me too, just looked at it again holy gak it has 15 attacks at S7 AP -1 D2
with 4++ anf T8 it is really tough and it can gain 3 wounds back per fight phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some additional tech inwas thinking was dropping a lictor with the haruspex drop pods (might run 2) get that sweet +2 on charges
Carnage43 wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on warrior loadouts? My printer is going be to going brrrr this weekend and I'm waffling between Double boneswords and scything talons, or Double swords and deathspitter.
Why would you ever want Talons? The extra attacks are with a garbage profile. Boneswords + Deathspitter every single time.
Doesn’t each scything talon grant +1 attack? That’s my reading. If true, two pairs (4) is 7 attacks per dude at a S5 -1 1D. It’s like having sweep attacks all the time, far from garbage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if you still want options, boneswords and talons gives you four attacks with swords and two with talons. It’s not bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh but it appears these are all free upgrades? If that’s the case, if you’re going melee the double swords double scythes seems the best, otherwise the best all around is probably swords/spitter. I’m blown away that these are all basically free upgrades.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Worth putting toxin sacs and/or glands on hormies or keep them bare? I'll probably be running Leviathan if that matters.
So tempting. They get a lot out of both of them. Going to S4 is a big breakpoint, and faster is better. And with the number of swings they get now, toxin will help get the wounds in.
But do we want to bump the price up that much? For a chaff unit they start to get kinda pricy. Better off to just field more basic guys?
If you have a way to let them charge without eating fire for a round, I suspect they can return their points. Someone can do the mathammer. But they will make for some very expensive gore splattered across the battlefield if they get caught in the open.
Of course, if you just play crusade, why not all the extra glands you can graft on?
What do people think about rupture cannon tyranofex against tau spesisically?
Also, the relica drenal gland does not replace the regular drenal glands? So you are effecivly +3 to movement? I am gonne try to get some winged hive tyrant action.
dreadlybrew wrote: I am so ready for a drop pod haruspex with a 4+invuln. Its just going to be so hardcore
You and me BOTH brother!
me too, just looked at it again holy gak it has 15 attacks at S7 AP -1 D2
with 4++ anf T8 it is really tough and it can gain 3 wounds back per fight phase.
Yeah I just ran this combo this weekend in a 1000pts Vs Dark Angels and a 2000pts game Vs Custodes...he did NOT disappoint. I drop podded him first game and slogged the second. He’s such a bullet soak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreadlybrew wrote: Anytime you might bring a rupture cannon. I would just bring a shard gullet walking tyrant woth tyrant guard
So my 1000 pt game Vs Dark Angels was very one-sided and funny to boot. As my opponent ran two big squads of shield Vets and I played Leviathan with 2 big squads of Warriors...I have to say that Warriors are GOING to be the Meta. Having Transhuman is such a game changer for Warriors, as they did most of the heavy lifting in my games. The new improved venom cannon is truly terrifying. If people are wondering if Stampede is going to be Legal after the codex drop, I’d say no fricking way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyran wrote: Eh as much as the shardgullet is amazing, the rupture cannon is still a better gun.
D6+4 >>> 5
Not if it’s on a 2+ to hit platform that can’t be shot at....Gullet is a Baller weapon. I was one shoting space marine dreadnaughts.
Not if it’s on a 2+ to hit platform that can’t be shot at....Gullet is a Baller weapon. I was one shoting space marine dreadnaughts.
In terms of raw damage, the rupture cannon is just better. BS 2+ is a 25% improvement over BS 3+, but Dd6+4 is a 50% improvement over D5. And the rupture cannon gets so much of the Leviathan secondary trait.
Also, S14 over S12 so you wound space marine dreadnoughts on 2+.
Now sure bodyguards shenanigans are broken, but if you want a hard target dead at range, rupture cannon is better.
Not if it’s on a 2+ to hit platform that can’t be shot at....Gullet is a Baller weapon. I was one shoting space marine dreadnaughts.
In terms of raw damage, the rupture cannon is just better. BS 2+ is a 25% improvement over BS 3+, but Dd6+4 is a 50% improvement over D5. And the rupture cannon gets so much of the Leviathan secondary trait.
Also, S14 over S12 so you wound space marine dreadnoughts on 2+.
Now sure bodyguards shenanigans are broken, but if you want a hard target dead at range, rupture cannon is better.
I won't argue with you on the gun (fine points), but my point is that walking Tyrants are definitely going to be a thing. Great all-around unit in my honest opinion. Being an old school player (2nd edition), I think this new Bug codex is what they should have been portrayed ages ago, since 2nd edition. And I've never played the shield wall/Bodyguard rule shenanigans. In my mind, that's DEFINITELY not in the spirit of the game. My Tyrant Guard are up front and centered when the Hive Tyrant is present. Those guys can pound sand...
Although I do admit, I really do miss the old "Tyranid Pre-Game Chart" you rolled before the battle even began...It was hilarious, broken but hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh but it appears these are all free upgrades? If that’s the case, if you’re going melee the double swords double scythes seems the best, otherwise the best all around is probably swords/spitter. I’m blown away that these are all basically free upgrades.
Tell me about it. I've got a sneaking suspicion that this is another GW trick...
Step 1) "Leak" the new codex...
Step 2) Get all the old bug players to buy more warriors since most of us probably have scything talons/spitter load-outs.
Step 3) Make profit.
Step 4) Release new codex, wait for a month, then nerf the ever loving gak out of them, while laughing all the way to the bank...
These codex leaks have been to me a wish list of what most Tryanid players have been wanting for a long time.
As good as warriors are, we do not even need them. As a whole the codex is very well balanced. A few subpar options, and even those can kinda work in niche scenarios.
Between Contrast paints being a godsend, and having some more cash, I decided to jump in to Nids. Picked up a Brood Swarm Box, grabbing the new combat patrol, and some other bits n bobs to build up.
I've got a HVC Foot Tyrant with Bonesword and Lashwhip.
What would be a good/the best loadout for a unit of Tyrant guard to pal around with the Tyrant? I'm leaning towards the Scything Talons, to help cut through hordes that might jam up a tyrant.
Thadin wrote: Between Contrast paints being a godsend, and having some more cash, I decided to jump in to Nids. Picked up a Brood Swarm Box, grabbing the new combat patrol, and some other bits n bobs to build up.
I've got a HVC Foot Tyrant with Bonesword and Lashwhip.
What would be a good/the best loadout for a unit of Tyrant guard to pal around with the Tyrant? I'm leaning towards the Scything Talons, to help cut through hordes that might jam up a tyrant.
You always have the Rending Claw, so I think the Bonecleaver and Lashwhip is the way to go. You're already getting 4A base next to a Tyrant, that should be enough IMO.
General meta question, I suppose. How prevalent is ignoring Combat Attrition checks? I know Tyranids get to ignore it so long as they're in Synapse, but, what about other armies?
I'm considering Screamer-Killers for my army, and wonder if their Morale effects will actually matter much at all.
Thadin wrote: General meta question, I suppose. How prevalent is ignoring Combat Attrition checks? I know Tyranids get to ignore it so long as they're in Synapse, but, what about other armies?
I'm considering Screamer-Killers for my army, and wonder if their Morale effects will actually matter much at all.
Morale will probably matter for SC when it comes to movement, but for getting shot at...nope. I can’t imagine that synapse is going to change all that much, probably get tighter to be honest.
Actually just read your post again...I agree with the above statement...not much will be left after a charge from a SC Fex. Although it could be possible that a full 5/man Custodes unit could run if you manage to kill 3 or 4...
Thadin wrote: General meta question, I suppose. How prevalent is ignoring Combat Attrition checks? I know Tyranids get to ignore it so long as they're in Synapse, but, what about other armies?
I'm considering Screamer-Killers for my army, and wonder if their Morale effects will actually matter much at all.
Using the horror psychic power and the psychotropic venom stratagem (excluding vehicles) with a lash whip in engagement range, and the enemy unit gets a -4 Leadership and -2 attrition test. This can really hurt against some specific enemy units.
Psychocouac wrote: The only things that are garbage tier are the secondaries. We will have to rely on nachmund objectives.
I feel like cranial feasting is a decent option if you're going melee heavy and into horde armies. You get free CP out of it, and you're getting a VP for each unit you finish off in melee. Not really useful into Custodes or other Tyranids where unit champions don't exist, but against footslogging Guard, Orks, or GSC it feels pretty reasonable, if a bit niche.
What are the thoughts on Carnifex builds? I think HVC hybrids could see more play than before - HVCs are much improved so investing in BS3+ for one gun doesn't feel as questionable, and native WS3+ keeps them relevant in CC where they can still shoot the cannon if need be. I've been looking at them as sort of general anti-T5-6 3W+ units. 125 seems pretty cheap for HVC, senses, and crushing claws - I can spend all game out of combat and not feel like I wasted the points on the claws but still not worry about becoming engaged by something tough. Yes there are more efficient HVC platforms they have their own limitations, these guys are just a flexible and relatively cheap option in my eyes.
Madjob wrote: What are the thoughts on Carnifex builds? I think HVC hybrids could see more play than before - HVCs are much improved so investing in BS3+ for one gun doesn't feel as questionable, and native WS3+ keeps them relevant in CC where they can still shoot the cannon if need be. I've been looking at them as sort of general anti-T5-6 3W+ units. 125 seems pretty cheap for HVC, senses, and crushing claws - I can spend all game out of combat and not feel like I wasted the points on the claws but still not worry about becoming engaged by something tough. Yes there are more efficient HVC platforms they have their own limitations, these guys are just a flexible and relatively cheap option in my eyes.
Yeah, i think a more general approach like that is the way to go (especially with the HVC not being blast any more).
For melee only it'd have to be SK's all the way, but id only really consider the Thornback if Orks start running hordes again (unlikely).
As for claws? I suppose so (i am one of the only people on the planet who runs my tervigon with them..looking forrward to surprising a few people with that).
If you run venomthropes you can save points on the sporecysts, but i would advise either one or the other as a general build fex will be meandering up the board taking potshots at things, so that -1 to hit will be handy. I'm considering venomthropes myself since they seem to have had a little bit of a stat boost
Madjob wrote: What are the thoughts on Carnifex builds? I think HVC hybrids could see more play than before - HVCs are much improved so investing in BS3+ for one gun doesn't feel as questionable, and native WS3+ keeps them relevant in CC where they can still shoot the cannon if need be. I've been looking at them as sort of general anti-T5-6 3W+ units. 125 seems pretty cheap for HVC, senses, and crushing claws - I can spend all game out of combat and not feel like I wasted the points on the claws but still not worry about becoming engaged by something tough. Yes there are more efficient HVC platforms they have their own limitations, these guys are just a flexible and relatively cheap option in my eyes.
Yeah, i think a more general approach like that is the way to go (especially with the HVC not being blast any more).
For melee only it'd have to be SK's all the way, but id only really consider the Thornback if Orks start running hordes again (unlikely).
As for claws? I suppose so (i am one of the only people on the planet who runs my tervigon with them..looking forrward to surprising a few people with that).
If you run venomthropes you can save points on the sporecysts, but i would advise either one or the other as a general build fex will be meandering up the board taking potshots at things, so that -1 to hit will be handy. I'm considering venomthropes myself since they seem to have had a little bit of a stat boost
Oh SKs for a melee only build 100%, there's absolutely no purpose to a 4x talon Carnifex that isn't a screamer killer unless you're trying an MC heavy build and just need more bodies for cheap, and a talon+claw fex just feels like it's pulling in two separate directions as far as the sorts of targets it wants to charge. Talons+HVC isn't bad but it limits my melee targets as 5 S6 D2 attacks aren't going to accomplish much against the hardier targets I have in mind, but the claws have enough oomph to drop a custodes bike or even two if I'm lucky.
I'm sorry to say I don't see the appeal of claws on a Tervigon, though, they overlap very closely with the heavier profile on their massive talons.
In this case i have to admit its because i didnt know much about the claws when i bought the tervigon years ago and glued it together before getting the codex, so I've been making do.
Played a TTS test game with the new nid rules vs my friends Salamanders, and here's some of my takeaways. I'm not a nid player, but they'll be my next army (they've just been sitting in the closet waiting for this codex)
-Synapse Link is really cool and thematic, especially with psy powers. Being able to basically cast any power along link range (except smite :c) makes nids really feel like a psionic powerhouse. Whipping spells around corners or across the entire table is rad.
-All the T8 2+ save monsters feel properly durable. This is what tanks should feel like, and I hope GW takes a note. Foot tyrant with Adaptive Biology was especially tanky and seems like a go-to beatstick.
-Sneaky bugs are awesome. I tried out a Lictor and a Parasite for Behind Enemy Lines and they performed beautifully. Lictors feel proper killy and annoying to shift, while the Parasite is fast as hell and brings a lot of tricks. I ran mine with the Obsec warlord trait for backfield objective grabbing, and I might even bring him with the Gestation Sack next time. For 80 points, a relic and a trait, he's an entire commando package. Pop the sack for instant 2unit behind enemy lines points, then run around removing enemy obsec with implant attacks while he counts as 5 obsec models himself.And he's synapse. Fantastic package.
-Genestealers are good and easily buffed to crazy good. 40 attacks from a 10 man unit chewed through a flamer aggressor squad no problem, and once they get into combat for their 4++, they're really quite sturdy. I even got some use out of fleshhooks, hiding behind some scalable (non-breachable) crates, then popping forward for the countercharge.
-I think hybrid Fexes are the way to go. HVCs are really just good all rounder guns. 3x damage 4 shots covers a lot of targets, and their 2+ save and -1 damage makes them feel quite a bit sturdier than regular dreads. With S6 talons they do hit noticeably weaker though.
-Warriors with boneswords and deathspitters are great, but can still be a bit flimsy. Lots of specific heavy-infantry counters will chew them up. Obviously leviathan transnid-warriors might get a leg up here (I was playing Jorm)
-Biovores still cool. Spewing spore mines all over the map to play mindgames with your opponent or forcing them to take damage when they come into objectives is great, even if the mines themselves don't block movement anymore. I will say that as the game went on, it was harder and hard to actually put mines in useful places because of the 6" deepstrike buffer. Sometimes it was better just to shoot them.
Tyranids feels powerful and rad against Space Marines, granted.
McGibs wrote: Genestealers are good and easily buffed to crazy good. 40 attacks from a 10 man unit chewed through a flamer aggressor squad no problem, and once they get into combat for their 4++, they're really quite sturdy. I even got some use out of fleshhooks, hiding behind some scalable (non-breachable) crates, then popping forward for the countercharge.
Flesh Hooks only affect the model with the Flesh Hook. In other words, basically useless on Genestealers.
Unrelated, but what's happened to Dakkadakka? I haven't been very active in the game for a couple of years, and now it's dead here. Where's the Tyranid discussion nowadays?
There is lots of discussion on Discord, but it's honestly too much for me (it moves really fast due to all the people posting). Dakka has gotten too quiet these days, I agree.
There was some conversation in the news and rumors section as things were being leaked. At this point, the whole codex is out there, but not officially. I suspect when it actually hits shelves chatter will pick up as people digest it.
N.I.B. wrote: Tyranids feels powerful and rad against Space Marines, granted.
McGibs wrote: Genestealers are good and easily buffed to crazy good. 40 attacks from a 10 man unit chewed through a flamer aggressor squad no problem, and once they get into combat for their 4++, they're really quite sturdy. I even got some use out of fleshhooks, hiding behind some scalable (non-breachable) crates, then popping forward for the countercharge.
Flesh Hooks only affect the model with the Flesh Hook. In other words, basically useless on Genestealers.
Unrelated, but what's happened to Dakkadakka? I haven't been very active in the game for a couple of years, and now it's dead here. Where's the Tyranid discussion nowadays?
Pretty much everything has moved to faction specific Discords.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: There is lots of discussion on Discord, but it's honestly too much for me (it moves really fast due to all the people posting). Dakka has gotten too quiet these days, I agree.
Do you have a link to the discord channel please, by any chance ?
Gene St. Ealer wrote: There is lots of discussion on Discord, but it's honestly too much for me (it moves really fast due to all the people posting). Dakka has gotten too quiet these days, I agree.
Do you have a link to the discord channel please, by any chance ?
It sounds great! And I think you can depend on the leaked version, as I did not hear anything to counter it.
Right out the gate, I am excited to try out Hydra, and Gorgon. Then try my tried and true Kronos. The extra range and AP at half range just might be "the juice". I want to math-hammer the Bug-Hive 30 shots of 1D can make a real dent in -1D targets, and that extra range just might make it useful.
For Hydra I am going to try a Tervigon with a 20+ Brood and rush the center, and try to max the primary. After that who knows?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Zoeys are back!!!
Hey guys, ordered the codex today and super excited to get stuck in.
Wondering if I could get a VERY rough suggestion for a 1000 (ish) points list. Only for strictly casual games vs my other armies with friends, so only needs to be fun and functional.
I own:
Winged Tyrant x1
Swarmlord x1
Tyranid Prime x1
Warriors x5
Hormagaunts x20
Termagants x12
Genestealers x8
Hive Guard x3
Tyrannofex/Tervigon x1 (magnetised so can be either)
I also just bought two boxes of Zoanthropes, which I was planning to turn into 5 Zoanthropes and a single Neurothrope but I am open to using Venomthropes instead.
random3 wrote: Hey guys, ordered the codex today and super excited to get stuck in.
Wondering if I could get a VERY rough suggestion for a 1000 (ish) points list. Only for strictly casual games vs my other armies with friends, so only needs to be fun and functional.
I own:
Winged Tyrant x1
Swarmlord x1
Tyranid Prime x1
Warriors x5
Hormagaunts x20
Termagants x12
Genestealers x8
Hive Guard x3
Tyrannofex/Tervigon x1 (magnetised so can be either)
I also just bought two boxes of Zoanthropes, which I was planning to turn into 5 Zoanthropes and a single Neurothrope but I am open to using Venomthropes instead.
Thanks!!
That is a nice spread of units. Basicly you'll need to decide How you want to play Nids...swarm, Big Bugs, and Psyke war are all good ways to go Nids look to Dominate the Psych phase.
I played a game last night against a friend. He's new to 40k, and I haven't played in near to 3 years. 1.5k points, Battlesuits, broadsides, a Stormsurge. He'd asked a local 40k player to help him build a list, and it seems like he went for the tournament hotness.
It may have been just a case of bad luck, but I could barely get anything through shield drones. Shardgullet, Exocrine, Boneswords, etc.
And when my Tyrannofex finally landed damage through the Stormsurge's 4++ and hit for 10 damage... Stratagem, drop to 1 damage. Now, we may have played it wrong, when the ability triggers, but still. That ability is kind of nuts.
My opponent may have also made an obscene number of 4++ saves but... what do you do?
Is it just the obvious answer, take a Drop-pod Malocepter? Because once my list wasn't protected by Zoanthrope Imperative, everything that got pointed at crumbled. I tried my best to hide around terrain, but, Tau battlesuits and Coldstars. I feel like I needed more mortal wounds to nuke through the enemy. My Neurothrope Imperative second turn did solid damage in the psychic phase, but it just wasn't enough.
Rundown of my list;
Leviathan Hive Fleet
Hive Tyrant, Bonesword+whip, Shardgullet, 5+ FNPWLT. Catalyst and Paroxysm
Tyranid Prime, dual bonesword and VC. Leviathan Relic to shoot at Deepstrikers.
Neurothrope. Resonance Barb. Psychic Scream, Onslaught, Catalyst.
5 Warriors, dual bonesword and deathspitters
10 Gargoyles
10 Termagants
I'm willing to accept any number of reasons. My friend and I talked things over, and we do intend to work out better-matched lists between each other, but I'd like to see what the general thoughts are, regarding Nids v Tau
He's new to 40k, and I haven't played in near to 3 years. 1.5k points, Battlesuits, broadsides, a Stormsurge. He'd asked a local 40k player to help him build a list, and it seems like he went for the tournament hotness.
It may have been just a case of bad luck, but I could barely get anything through shield drones. Shardgullet, Exocrine, Boneswords, etc.
And when my Tyrannofex finally landed damage through the Stormsurge's 4++ and hit for 10 damage... Stratagem, drop to 1 damage. Now, we may have played it wrong, when the ability triggers, but still. That ability is kind of nuts.
My opponent may have also made an obscene number of 4++ saves but... what do you do?
Is it just the obvious answer, take a Drop-pod Malocepter? Because once my list wasn't protected by Zoanthrope Imperative, everything that got pointed at crumbled. I tried my best to hide around terrain, but, Tau battlesuits and Coldstars. I feel like I needed more mortal wounds to nuke through the enemy. My Neurothrope Imperative second turn did solid damage in the psychic phase, but it just wasn't enough.
Rundown of my list;
Leviathan Hive Fleet
Hive Tyrant, Bonesword+whip, Shardgullet, 5+ FNPWLT. Catalyst and Paroxysm
Tyranid Prime, dual bonesword and VC. Leviathan Relic to shoot at Deepstrikers.
Neurothrope. Resonance Barb. Psychic Scream, Onslaught, Catalyst.
5 Warriors, dual bonesword and deathspitters
10 Gargoyles
10 Termagants
I'm willing to accept any number of reasons. My friend and I talked things over, and we do intend to work out better-matched lists between each other, but I'd like to see what the general thoughts are, regarding Nids v Tau
So you got a relatively slow moving tyranid army that moves towards a tau gunline. Yea you're going to lose.
Your tyranid army is balanced (close combat, shooting, defence) but doesn't really commit to anything.
I would drop the prime and the carnifex and get a flying hive tyrant with the reaper. Add another (patrol) detachment for that. Take out that important tau unit and keep them occupied meanwhile make sure you get the objectives..
N.I.B. wrote: Unrelated, but what's happened to Dakkadakka? I haven't been very active in the game for a couple of years, and now it's dead here. Where's the Tyranid discussion nowadays?
Pretty much everything has moved to faction specific Discords.
That's sad. I though Discord was talk only, I guess I'm a dinosaur. Anyway fast-moving chats doesn't sound like the discussions I'm into for 40K.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: There is lots of discussion on Discord, but it's honestly too much for me (it moves really fast due to all the people posting). Dakka has gotten too quiet these days, I agree.
Do you have a link to the discord channel please, by any chance ?
The balance update is due sometime this week, so I wouldn't rush into any major adjustments until we see what that does to Tau.
Thadin wrote: And when my Tyrannofex finally landed damage through the Stormsurge's 4++ and hit for 10 damage... Stratagem, drop to 1 damage. Now, we may have played it wrong, when the ability triggers, but still. That ability is kind of nuts.
FWIW this strat needs to be used when an attack allocated, so before the save is rolled. This means that if you wound with multiple attacks those get different damage values and need to be saved separately.
It also costs 2CP when used with a Stormsurge, and that model must have the correct wargear picked in the army list before the game to get the keyword for it.
xttz wrote: FWIW this strat needs to be used when an attack allocated, so before the save is rolled. This means that if you wound with multiple attacks those get different damage values and need to be saved separately.
It also costs 2CP when used with a Stormsurge, and that model must have the correct wargear picked in the army list before the game to get the keyword for it.
I see, thank you for explaining. Good to know it's more of a bargain than I initially thought.
shogun wrote: So you got a relatively slow moving tyranid army that moves towards a tau gunline. Yea you're going to lose.
Your tyranid army is balanced (close combat, shooting, defence) but doesn't really commit to anything.
I would drop the prime and the carnifex and get a flying hive tyrant with the reaper. Add another (patrol) detachment for that. Take out that important tau unit and keep them occupied meanwhile make sure you get the objectives..
I'll give that a shot, once I've got another Tyrant. That seems sound to me, being able to get something meaningful in to melee combat when you actually need it there.
Is the meta, even for pick-up games adverse to building balanced lists? It's what I like to play, having a decent mix of everything. A sort of elite-ish combined-arms army, using lots Warriors(when I get more) is what drew me to the army. But, shifting style to get better games is certainly in the cards.
How do you play gargoyles as leviathan ? Whenever they are visible to the opponent a ten model unit dies. I feel like the only way to play them is to put them into strategic reserves, or hide them the whole game. But putting them in reserves costs CP, which are very precious, because leviathan cant get any additional CP, except for that stupid secondary. Or did i miss something there ?
They're in that list because that list is all I have currently. You're not missing anything. I don't plan to keep them around except to power town a list.
In addition we also lose our Hive Fleet Adaptation if we include any GSC in the army. As those also say that every unit in your army has to have HIVE TENDRIL in order to gain them.
Which is quite a harsh penalty on top of losing the synaptic imperatives.
I just come back from an 8 years hibernation with my tyranids. The new codex is enjoying me. I am casual and fluff player, and I would like to build around gorgon fleet. I know this is not the best fleet to use and everybody goes to Leviathan for the transhuman but I want to give it a try. So I have some questions to you, experimented players. 1. Which are the best units to use in this fleet ? I am prime thinking about toxin hormagaunts to benefit from hypertoxicity stratagem, toxin warriors also. Sadly it only works for melee.. 2. What should be the tricks to enhance the fleet? rerolls with prince ? Other things ? Many psykers to cast their spell more often ? 3. The adaptable seems pretty weak, do you have an idea for which ability I can replace it ? 4. Am I a gentle dreamer, and this hive fleet is just gak ?
Gorgon wants lots of low strength attacks to be buffed with poison, so Hormagaunts, devourers.
Its strength is matchup dependant. It is bad against mech lists, but it would utterly wreck a monster list (which ironically makes it great in the mirror matchup).
I just come back from an 8 years hibernation with my tyranids. The new codex is enjoying me.
I am casual and fluff player, and I would like to build around gorgon fleet.
I know this is not the best fleet to use and everybody goes to Leviathan for the transhuman but I want to give it a try.
So I have some questions to you, experimented players.
1. Which are the best units to use in this fleet ? I am prime thinking about toxin hormagaunts to benefit from hypertoxicity stratagem, toxin warriors also. Sadly it only works for melee..
2. What should be the tricks to enhance the fleet? rerolls with prince ? Other things ? Many psykers to cast their spell more often ?
3. The adaptable seems pretty weak, do you have an idea for which ability I can replace it ?
4. Am I a gentle dreamer, and this hive fleet is just gak ?
I think Gorgon could be a legit choice. Wounding on 4+ is nothing to undervalue. Lots of Gribles with lots of attacks, so Devourers might be worthwhile.
I think I may give Ole One Eye a try as well...why not? 
If you don't go Leviathan for your Crusher, you lose several key strats. 
You also might not want to pack everything on one model, because Railguns, and the like exist. 
The new retrieve data mission can fail. It requires a 
