83175
Post by: pinecone77
 luke1705 wrote:Tyran wrote:A full unit of devilgants with the shoot twice stratagem should do a nice amount of damage to fodder, and we have plenty of ways to deliver that to the enemy.
Another option is to go crazy with big monsters with a list full of Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.
Actually I really like the devil gant idea. I didn’t run the numbers before because they died to an Alpha strike and delivery methods were too expensive, but now we can just jormungdr them and then....ravener or lictor them into place right? That seems pretty solid. It’s actually our single best anti infantry unit for just piling on wounds. Heck, even just throwing wounds onto Magnus or Mortarion is no joke. Morty takes 7-8 wounds on average (that’s how many FNP he fails, I mean). Even at -1 to hit, he’s looking at 5 failed FNP. Magnus takes 7 wounds even with his invuln increased and the assumed 6+ FNP warlord trait. Magnus with 3++ re-rolling 1’s and a changeling nearby is 4.5 failed FNP.
Like I’m really not mad at that output.
Is there any way to put them into reserves except for Jormungdr or a Trygon?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops I did my math wrong. Was re-rolling 1’s to hit, not to wound. I think it’s a little worse but it’s in that same ballpark I think (+/- like 1 wound)
Well...how exactly does Lictor trail work now...?
114602
Post by: svknoe
Tyran wrote:
Whoops I did my math wrong. Was re-rolling 1’s to hit, not to wound. I think it’s a little worse but it’s in that same ballpark I think (+/- like 1 wound)
Rerolling ones to hit or one is exactly the same thing. Your damage increases by a factor of 7/6 either way.
A full unit of devourer gaunts kills this many IG with the strategem on average: 180 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2/3 *7/6 = 46.67 . Similarily, they kill 58.32 gaunts or 17.52 marines. I'd say that this is great at clearing screens. It's even somewhat efficient at killing conscripts. 
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Post by: Amishprn86
Killing a unit and almost a 2nd unit of conscripts is pretty good, especially when you can DS them for more 1 CP.
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Post by: Kryddbov
How does it work when you have multiple "At the end of the movement phase" abilities. Can I as a player choose in which order they happen?
For example. Can I drop a Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte and then spawn 10 Termagants?
Also, let me see if I got this right.
The Kraken trait lets you roll 3d6 when advancing, chosing the highest. If I combine this with the Kraken strategem "Opportunistic Advance" I can first move my unit of Genestealers up 8", then roll 3ds, pick the highest and double what i rolled? So if i roll a 5 as my highest i can advance 10"?
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Post by: Amishprn86
Phase 178 covers this (left side, Sequencing rules), if it is your turn you pick the order.
And yes for the Genestealer question, but your spending a CP to do that.
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Post by: RogueApiary
Couple questions based on the community/FLG previews. Do spore mines from the strat come onto the board before AL infiltrators? Second, does the Caustic Blood strat only work on the first fight phase for Khorne Berzerkers or both of them? The way it's written seems to suggest that during the second fight phase, the Berzerkers will be fine since it's a separate fight phase.
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Post by: Amishprn86
IDK the wording on AL, but if they are the same wording then you roll off, the winner gets to place 1 unit 1st, then the other places 1 unit and go back and forth.
I also dont know the other rule, is that where they attack again? or is that the CP that lets them attack again?
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Post by: Niiai
The pheremontrail abilaty does not work they way you think it works when you first read it.
It are 3 parts that are confusing:
1. The unit must already have a way of getting in reserve, or spawn on the map. This stratagem does not let you place things in reserve. Genestealer nodes come to mind.
2. It is unclear if the lictor can be placed in the same round. No matter raw/rai this will get clearified in an faq.
3. It is unclear if cultists can use this. This will be clearified in an faq.
When I say unclear I mean it spawn so much discussion, don't build an army around it before you know.
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Post by: Malachon
RogueApiary wrote:Couple questions based on the community/ FLG previews. Do spore mines from the strat come onto the board before AL infiltrators? Second, does the Caustic Blood strat only work on the first fight phase for Khorne Berzerkers or both of them? The way it's written seems to suggest that during the second fight phase, the Berzerkers will be fine since it's a separate fight phase.
For the Berzerkers, I'd say caustic blood works both times, as it is the same fight phase. The second time fighting is not a second fight phase, it's a second activation in the same fight-phase.
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Post by: luke1705
The lictor ability likely will get an FAQ just because of how many people will ask, but it is pretty clear how it works currently. People are just wary because of how things like that used to work. The wording is unambiguous.
Normal spore mines do not come down before infiltrators. If the stratagem says “this happens at the beginning of the first battle round”, then there is no roll off. Whomever has first turn is allowed to infiltrate their units first
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Post by: N.I.B.
 Xenomancers wrote:warriors needed a buff more than anything in the codex and they didn't get it.
Maleceptor.
Haruspex.
Toxicrene.
Raveners.
Venomthropes.
Zoanthropes.
Lictors.
Tyranid Prime.
Tyrant Guards.
Tervigon.
All of the above were, and still are, in a worse place than Warriors.
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Post by: Amishprn86
Lictors are fine IMO, but the rest are not in a good place lol.
25247
Post by: N.I.B.
Both Lictors and Raveners suddenly got a job as Jormungandr-cabs, but they didn't get any buffs on their own that allows you to theme an army around them.
Heck, Raveners didn't even get close combat biomorphs like adrenal glands or toxin sacs.
But, as long as they can drive a cab, right?
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Post by: Niiai
I think raveners got a boost. Deathspitters went down by 3 points, and got range 24". Good for popping up and shooting devestators squads. Probably need hive crone or other synapse. Also, the guns went down to 1 point. So for 1 point they get 4 S3 gun attacks.
If anybody is running ravaners they will buy one of those 2. 1 points for 4 shots is a good bargein if you are running snakes. The only reason not using them is because you buy the heavy bolter.
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Post by: Mandragola
Do people think it matters that harpies and hive crones are in the flyer slot in the codex, rather than fast attack? I think it'll have a number of effects:
- They won't be any use to fill out a brigade. Not sure that matters much as they are pretty pricey for that role.
- You'll be able to have a flyer wing if you have three of them. Again not much of a big deal as HQs seem good, and neurothropes are cheap as well. HQs aren't much of a "tax" for Nids.
- They won't be able to score once chapter approved comes out. This is a really big deal for a unit with a 30" move. Pretty major nerf.
- It will be possible to table you without killing them. This could well matter, especially if you take 3+ of them. That's close to 25% of your points at 2k, which your opponent can ignore if going for a tabling.
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Post by: Astmeister
Mandragola wrote:Do people think it matters that harpies and hive crones are in the flyer slot in the codex, rather than fast attack? I think it'll have a number of effects:
- They won't be any use to fill out a brigade. Not sure that matters much as they are pretty pricey for that role.
- You'll be able to have a flyer wing if you have three of them. Again not much of a big deal as HQs seem good, and neurothropes are cheap as well. HQs aren't much of a "tax" for Nids.
- They won't be able to score once chapter approved comes out. This is a really big deal for a unit with a 30" move. Pretty major nerf.
- It will be possible to table you without killing them. This could well matter, especially if you take 3+ of them. That's close to 25% of your points at 2k, which your opponent can ignore if going for a tabling.
You have valid points there. It is also anoying that they are apparently the only "flyers" who do not have the -1 to hit built in.
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Post by: babelfish
So I've been thinking that a Kronos gunline with screening bodies is going to be ugly. I'm thinking three Exocrines, two T-fexes, 6-8 Hive Guard, two Malanthropes, and an absurd amount of termagants + some warriors for keeping synapse happy.
Is it worth trying to put in 'stealer nodes and a big squad of 'stealers for countercharge?
Are primes preferable to warriors for this build?
Is a drop devilgaunt squad feasible? It would synergyze well, and the double tap stratagem is too good to pass up, but I would need the points for the 30 gaunts and the Trygon/Raveners to deliver them.
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Post by: Tyran
 Astmeister wrote:Mandragola wrote:Do people think it matters that harpies and hive crones are in the flyer slot in the codex, rather than fast attack? I think it'll have a number of effects:
- They won't be any use to fill out a brigade. Not sure that matters much as they are pretty pricey for that role.
- You'll be able to have a flyer wing if you have three of them. Again not much of a big deal as HQs seem good, and neurothropes are cheap as well. HQs aren't much of a "tax" for Nids.
- They won't be able to score once chapter approved comes out. This is a really big deal for a unit with a 30" move. Pretty major nerf.
- It will be possible to table you without killing them. This could well matter, especially if you take 3+ of them. That's close to 25% of your points at 2k, which your opponent can ignore if going for a tabling.
You have valid points there. It is also anoying that they are apparently the only "flyers" who do not have the -1 to hit built in.
Helldrakes also lack the -1 to hit. Helldrakes also are a "melee" flyer like the Harpy and Hive Crone.
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Post by: Amishprn86
I dont mind honestly, i still like the Harpy better over all and most likely will still take 2 of them time to time.
I dont do brigades anyways since i'll most likely be playing 2 Fleets, so its 2 Battalions for me.
Tho.. I might do a Brigade once or twice for fun
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Post by: Niiai
What ways are best to get command points?
From what I can see. It might be worth it to take 2 battalions. It is 9 command points, 3 less then Brigade detcahment.
Both needs 3 warlord and 6 troops. But 2x battalion needs only 1 more HQ. While in a brigade you need to fill out 3 elites, 3 fast attack and 3 heavy support.
Unless your army is spotting a heavy elite and fast attack slot already they can be hard to fill.
Minimum elite = lictors
Minimum fast attack = 3 spore mines, 1 mycolit, 3 ravaners (guns otimal) or 10 gargoyles.
Minimum heavy support = 3 biovores.
3 biovores can be usefull. So heavy suport is not so hard to fill. Lictors and the fast attack options seems a bit lackluster though. Only ravaners seems remotly usefull.
Any opinions?
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Post by: Amishprn86
Carnifex's are so good now i do dont mind taking 2 of them. And spores are easy, i just want 2 fleets lol
Edit: I have a brigade list for sure tho, 12 CP can be really nice, tho it would most likely all by Jormungandr shooting, DakkaFex's, Dakkaflyrants, Mawloc+lictor+Devilgants, Exocrine, Hive guard and a Tfex. with lots of Rippers
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Post by: Lance845
Something I noticed that may need to be clarified by GW. Sporefield allows you to add up to 2 units of Spore Mines. All 3 spore mine types have the Spore Mine keyword. You may be able to use that stratagem to add units of the bigger more damaging mines.
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Post by: Niiai
 Lance845 wrote:Something I noticed that may need to be clarified by GW. Sporefield allows you to add up to 2 units of Spore Mines. All 3 spore mine types have the Spore Mine keyword. You may be able to use that stratagem to add units of the bigger more damaging mines.
Aprarantly the way that sporemines are worded is that you don't need to pay for them if they are made by other units. But not by stratagems.
93221
Post by: Lance845
 Niiai wrote: Lance845 wrote:Something I noticed that may need to be clarified by GW. Sporefield allows you to add up to 2 units of Spore Mines. All 3 spore mine types have the Spore Mine keyword. You may be able to use that stratagem to add units of the bigger more damaging mines.
Aprarantly the way that sporemines are worded is that you don't need to pay for them if they are made by other units. But not by stratagems.
If that was true the strategem would be pointless. Spore mines already have a float down rule which says they are not deployed with the rest of your army. They deploy via deepstrike 12" + away from enemy models. So... you would pay 3 CP to do what spore mines do anyway but slightly sooner?
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Post by: Niiai
Nope.
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Post by: Tyel
What is the problem with warriors these days?
There are probably good reasons - but has anyone tried just bonesword warriors? Maybe chuck in spinefists if they are only a point now.
It seems to me on paper they do reasonable damage. Its not the level of Genestealers - and they are a bit slower - but on the other hand you are dramatically more survivable versus small arms. Something like 5 times as survivable by my count for half the damage.
Genestealers are better if you are reliably first turn charging I guess - but if your opponent gets first turn those genestealers should be target number 1 (or would be if people were still not getting distracted by big stuff).
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Post by: Amishprn86
No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Is it just me or does a kronos tyrannofex with a rupture cannon seem like a best in slot for anti tank?
Or is an exocrine actually better?
93221
Post by: Lance845
I am kind of surprised that with all of 7th nobody ever made 3rd party spore mines/mucolid spore models.
116025
Post by: Dynas
*Edit*- Added Thematic Overall notes.
Not sure if this has been consolidated anywhere, but I got tired of flipping back and forth and scanning multiple threads. This is a combine HIVE FLEET Warlord Traits, Adaptation, and Strategems. This doesn't include the Generics, but hopefully is easier to see/read and give you a better idea of the flavor of each of the fleets.
WL Warlord Traits (Warlord Only)
HFA Hive Fleet adapations (apply to everything)
STRAT Stratagems (cost CP)
RELIC Relics
KRAKEN - Theme is Fast Advance and Maneuver, fastest Fleet
HFA Kraken: When a unit with this adaptation Advances, roll three dice instead of one and pick the highest to add to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. In addition, such units can Fall Back and charge in the same turn.
WL Kraken: 1 friendly kraken unit within 6 of wlt, can fight first in fight phase even without charging
STRAT 1cp Opportunistic Advance- Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movement characteristic.
RELIC Chameleonic Mutations (Kraken): -1 to hit from shooting attacks
GORGON - Theme is great on WOUNDING in Fight Phase
HFA Gorgon: You can re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation
WL Gorgon: end of fight phase. roll d6 for every enemy within 1" of warlord. on 4+, that unit suffer a MW.
STRAT 1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)- fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
RELIC Hyperadaptive Biology (Gorgon): From the end of the first phase in which this model suffers any wounds, add 1 to its Toughness for the remainder of the battle
JORMUNGANDR - Theme is Deepstriking/Tunnels, Cover bonus/ignoring enemy cover
HFA Jormungandr: A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase.
WL Jormungandr: Enemy unit dont gain bonus to saving throw for being in cover by attacks from wl, or friendly Jormungandr units within 3 of wl.
STRAT 1cp the enemy below (Jormungandr) -use strat when jor inf set up, put it undergorund. whenever you set up raveners mawloc trygon or trygon prime. any no of its unit can be set up within the tunnels, 3 inch from burrowing unit ,9 inch away enemy.
RELIC Infrasonic Roar (Jorgmungandr) : Monster only. Enemy unit within 6 inch of this model must subtract 1 from LD.
HYDRA - Theme is Swarm Tactics, to HIT's in Fight Phase, Regeneration
HFA Hydra: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models than their own
WL Hydra: Beginning of each of your turn, roll a dice for each wound WL suffered, on a 6, heal.
STRAT 2cp Endless Swarm -(Hydra) Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy
RELIC Slimer Maggot Infestatation (Hydra): Replaces pair of slimer deathspitters. Re-rolls failed wounds
KRONUS - Theme is Pysker/Anti Pysker and Shooting Buffs
HFA Kronos: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for units with this adaptation in your Shooting phase if they did not move in the preceding Movement phase
WL Kronos: Enemy psyker fail a psychic test within 18 of your wl, they suffer D3 MW
STRAT 1cp Against Shadow (Kronos)- enemy psyker attempts to cast a spell within 24 inch of kronos unit. that psyker can only use 1 dice for his psyk test.
RELIC Balethorn Cannon (Kronos): Replaces Stranglethorn. Ignores invuln saves
LEVIATHAN - Theme is army Feel no Pain and Lots of Universal Rerolls
HFA Leviathan: Roll a D6 each time a unit with the adaptation loses a wound whilst it is within 6" of a friendly Synapse unit from the same hive fleet. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the unit does not lose a wound. Ignore this adaptation on a unit that is currently affected by the Catalyst psychic power.
WL Leviathan : 1 per battle round. you can reroll a single hit/wound/dmg /advance charge or saving throw for the wl.
STRAT 1cp war on all fronts (leviathan)-fight phase. select enemy within 1inch of 1 flying and 1 nonflying leviathan unit. can reroll hits & wound rolls of 1 for levi attacks against the enemy unit
RELIC Slayer Sabres (Leviathan): Replaces monstrous boneswords. If against infantry or biker model suffers dmg from this weapon but not slain at end of fight phase, roll d3. if result is greater than wounds remaining on the model, the model is slain.
BEHEMOTH - Theme is Devastating CHARGES and bonus attacks in the Fight Phase
HFA Behemoth: You can re-roll failed charge rolls for units with this adaptation
WL Behemoth: WOund roll of 6 in fight phase. that attack +1 dmg
STRAT 1cp brute force (behemoth)-use when benemoth unit complete charge . roll d6 for each behemoth charging model within 1inch of enemy. each roll of 6, 1 MW on enemy unit. 2+ for a behemoth monster charging; (30 man gant charge in, roll d6 for all, on a 6 chuck a mw)
RELIC Scythes of Tyran (Behemoth): Replaces massive scything talons. Adds +1S and generates extra attack on to hit of 6+
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Post by: Amishprn86
Xenomancers wrote:Is it just me or does a kronos tyrannofex with a rupture cannon seem like a best in slot for anti tank?
Or is an exocrine actually better?
Or Jormungandr if you think you'll be moving around a lot, both are great for different reasons, Exocrines are different roll that Tfex, Tfex is made to deal with high Toughness, exocrines more elite units and light vehicles.
Tyel wrote:What is the problem with warriors these days?
There are probably good reasons - but has anyone tried just bonesword warriors? Maybe chuck in spinefists if they are only a point now.
It seems to me on paper they do reasonable damage. Its not the level of Genestealers - and they are a bit slower - but on the other hand you are dramatically more survivable versus small arms. Something like 5 times as survivable by my count for half the damage.
Genestealers are better if you are reliably first turn charging I guess - but if your opponent gets first turn those genestealers should be target number 1 (or would be if people were still not getting distracted by big stuff).
I have not, but i would do 1 roll, either melee or shooting. do Deathspitters for range and if you go all out melee make sure ot get AG's
Lance845 wrote:I am kind of surprised that with all of 7th nobody ever made 3rd party spore mines/mucolid spore models.
You can make them really easily, Carnifex Bone Mace tails with some Whips.
116025
Post by: Dynas
1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)- fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
If you put this on Genestealers with Rending claws does this change the Rending to 5+ to get the -4 AP bonus on 5+ instead of just 6+? I am thinking no, but unsure.
801
Post by: buddha
 Dynas wrote:Not sure if this has been consolidated anywhere, but I got tired of flipping back and forth and scanning multiple threads. This is a combine HIVE FLEET Warlord Traits, Adaptation, and Strategems. This doesn't include the Generics, but hopefully is easier to see/read and give you a better idea of the flavor of each of the fleets.
WL Warlord Traits (Warlord Only)
HFA Hive Fleet adapations (apply to everything)
STRAT Stratagems (cost CP)
RELIC Relics
KRAKEN
HFA Kraken: When a unit with this adaptation Advances, roll three dice instead of one and pick the highest to add to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. In addition, such units can Fall Back and charge in the same turn.
WL Kraken: 1 friendly kraken unit within 6 of wlt, can fight first in fight phase even without charging
STRAT 1cp Opportunistic Advance- Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movement characteristic.
RELIC Chameleonic Mutations (Kraken): -1 to hit from shooting attacks
GORGON
HFA Gorgon: You can re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation
WL Gorgon: end of fight phase. roll d6 for every enemy within 1" of warlord. on 4+, that unit suffer a MW.
STRAT 1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)- fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
RELIC Hyperadaptive Biology (Gorgon): From the end of the first phase in which this model suffers any wounds, add 1 to its Toughness for the remainder of the battle
JORMUNGANDR
HFA Jormungandr: A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase.
WL Jormungandr: Enemy unit dont gain bonus to saving throw for being in cover by attacks from wl, or friendly Jormungandr units within 3 of wl.
STRAT 1cp the enemy below (Jormungandr) -use strat when jor inf set up, put it undergorund. whenever you set up raveners mawloc trygon or trygon prime. any no of its unit can be set up within the tunnels, 3 inch from burrowing unit ,9 inch away enemy.
RELIC Infrasonic Roar (Jorgmungandr) : Monster only. Enemy unit within 6 inch of this model must subtract 1 from LD.
HYDRA
HFA Hydra: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models than their own
WL Hydra: Beginning of each of your turn, roll a dice for each wound WL suffered, on a 6, heal.
STRAT 2cp Endless Swarm -(Hydra) Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy
RELIC Slimer Maggot Infestatation (Hydra): Replaces pair of slimer deathspitters. Re-rolls failed wounds
KRONUS
HFA Kronos: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for units with this adaptation in your Shooting phase if they did not move in the preceding Movement phase
WL Kronos: Enemy psyker fail a psychic test within 18 of your wl, they suffer D3 MW
STRAT 1cp Against Shadow (Kronos)- enemy psyker attempts to cast a spell within 24 inch of kronos unit. that psyker can only use 1 dice for his psyk test.
RELIC Balethorn Cannon (Kronos): Replaces Stranglethorn. Ignores invuln saves
LEVIATHAN
HFA Leviathan: Roll a D6 each time a unit with the adaptation loses a wound whilst it is within 6" of a friendly Synapse unit from the same hive fleet. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the unit does not lose a wound. Ignore this adaptation on a unit that is currently affected by the Catalyst psychic power.
WL Leviathan : 1 per battle round. you can reroll a single hit/wound/ dmg /advance charge or saving throw for the wl.
STRAT 1cp war on all fronts (leviathan)-fight phase. select enemy within 1inch of 1 flying and 1 nonflying leviathan unit. can reroll hits & wound rolls of 1 for levi attacks against the enemy unit
RELIC Slayer Sabres (Leviathan): Replaces monstrous boneswords. If against infantry or biker model suffers dmg from this weapon but not slain at end of fight phase, roll d3. if result is greater than wounds remaining on the model, the model is slain.
BEHEMOTH
HFA Behemoth: You can re-roll failed charge rolls for units with this adaptation
WL Behemoth: WOund roll of 6 in fight phase. that attack +1 dmg
STRAT 1cp brute force (behemoth)-use when benemoth unit complete charge . roll d6 for each behemoth charging model within 1inch of enemy. each roll of 6, 1 MW on enemy unit. 2+ for a behemoth monster charging; (30 man gant charge in, roll d6 for all, on a 6 chuck a mw)
RELIC Scythes of Tyran (Behemoth): Replaces massive scything talons. Adds +1S and generates extra attack on to hit of 6+
Thanks Dynas. You're doing the Lord's (Hive Mind's?) Work.
93221
Post by: Lance845
Dynas wrote:1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)- fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
If you put this on Genestealers with Rending claws does this change the Rending to 5+ to get the -4 AP bonus on 5+ instead of just 6+? I am thinking no, but unsure.
No.
116025
Post by: Dynas
113448
Post by: Resipsa131
I wonder how Gorgon Hormagaunts units that have the hungering swarm ability will be treated? Most likely they won't stack and allow you more than simply rerolls of 1s to wound.
However it would be cool if they got the Cadian regimental doctrine that stacks with Taking Aim Order that allows rerolls of all misses.
116025
Post by: Dynas
Resipsa131 wrote:I wonder how Gorgon Hormagaunts units that have the hungering swarm ability will be treated? Most likely they won't stack and allow you more than simply rerolls of 1s to wound.
However it would be cool if they got the Cadian regimental doctrine that stacks with Taking Aim Order that allows rerolls of all misses.
I doubt it would stack. And you can never reroll a reroll. The benefit is, when the unit drops below 20 models, you can still get the rerolls of 1's.
113448
Post by: Resipsa131
Dynas wrote:Resipsa131 wrote:I wonder how Gorgon Hormagaunts units that have the hungering swarm ability will be treated? Most likely they won't stack and allow you more than simply rerolls of 1s to wound.
However it would be cool if they got the Cadian regimental doctrine that stacks with Taking Aim Order that allows rerolls of all misses.
I doubt it would stack. And you can never reroll a reroll. The benefit is, when the unit drops below 20 models, you can still get the rerolls of 1's.
Yeah you woudnt reroll a reroll but rerolling 1s and 2s to wound in the fight phase would be really cool for units over 20 models and its not entirely unheard of that an ability that gives a certain buff to give an additional buff such as Cadian Regimental Doctrine and Taking Aim! Order
84200
Post by: Emicrania
Ok, first question first: is it legal to do what OP showed in tactics ? Because in my meta you get a bag full of dice in your face if you do that.
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Are we about 50 insane people or did OP miss it intentionally?
93221
Post by: Lance845
 Emicrania wrote:Ok, first question first: is it legal to do what OP showed in tactics ? Because in my meta you get a bag full of dice in your face if you do that.
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Are we about 50 insane people or did OP miss it intentionally?
You cannot choose a target you did not declare a charge against when doing your attacks, but you can, in fact, consolidate how it is shown. In fact, you have to because you have to move towards the closest enemy.
Its what makes the hormagaunts 6" pile in/consolidate so great. You take whole piles of enemy units and trap them in combat.
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Post by: Marmatag
Emicrania wrote:
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Only if that move is a charge move. A consolidation move happens after the charge, and does indeed allow you to move within 1" of an enemy you did not charge.
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Post by: pinecone77
 Marmatag wrote: Emicrania wrote:
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Only if that move is a charge move. A consolidation move happens after the charge, and does indeed allow you to move within 1" of an enemy you did not charge.
The limit is I can't Fight unless I declared, so if I declare, and consolidate, I could use say a strategem to fight again, otherwise I just tie them up.
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Post by: Marmatag
pinecone77 wrote: Marmatag wrote: Emicrania wrote: You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Only if that move is a charge move. A consolidation move happens after the charge, and does indeed allow you to move within 1" of an enemy you did not charge.
The limit is I can't Fight unless I declared, so if I declare, and consolidate, I could use say a strategem to fight again, otherwise I just tie them up.
True enough. Always good to deny as many shooting attacks as possible. But with caustic blood it's a solid move, too, because units have to fight against you if you pile into them.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Hormagaunts aren't killing much anyways. Their job is to lock up as much as possible, reduce shooting and limit the opponent's ability to counter-charge.
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Post by: luke1705
 Traceoftoxin wrote:Hormagaunts aren't killing much anyways. Their job is to lock up as much as possible, reduce shooting and limit the opponent's ability to counter-charge.
This is part of what makes them so valuable actually. Units like Genestealers can and will murderize SO MANY MODELS....which is good until you want to actually wrap around a model such that it is actually locked in combat (a lost art IMO). Hormagants don't kill enough to pull the models out of range, so they actually reliably CAN tie up units for a turn, which means that they won't get shot at when the unit falls back (because it can't) and they get to fight a second time in the ensuing fight phase on your opponent's turn.
TLDR: I definitely need more Hormagants. And devourer gants.
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Post by: pismakron
Emicrania wrote:Ok, first question first: is it legal to do what OP showed in tactics ? Because in my meta you get a bag full of dice in your face if you do that.
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Are we about 50 insane people or did OP miss it intentionally?
All the units that you declare a charge against get to fire overwatch, if the charging unit us within line of sight at the beginning of its charge. IT is perfectly possible to charge from behind los-blocking terrain and thus deny incoming overwatch. Any unit that you declared a charge against, you can hit in the right phase.
But what is more valuable, is that you can use your pile-in and consolidate moves to move within 1" of an enemy unit WITHOUT declaring a charge thus not receiving any overwatch. You will not be able to fight these units, but they will be engaged and thus forced to either fight or fall back.
Not only can this deny enemy shooting, but it can hilariously boost the movement of your melee units.
Imagine a scenario where the enemy has deployed some scouts at midfield some 15 inches away from your lines. You advance 12" towards them with your gaunts, then you declare a charge against the scouts rolling a nine, eating overwatch. You proceed to move one model closer than 1" to the far side of the scout model that is furthest away. Then you move every model past the scouts, fanning out and maintaining coherency, while using up all of the available nine inch movement. Now most of your gaunts will have moved a total of 21". In the fight phase every gaunt model gets to pile-in 6" closer to the closest enemy model, and many of your gaunts will probably pile-in to enemy units up to 27" away from the gaunts starting position.
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Post by: Niiai
pismakron wrote: Emicrania wrote:Ok, first question first: is it legal to do what OP showed in tactics ? Because in my meta you get a bag full of dice in your face if you do that.
You have to DECLARE a charge against ALL the possible target in order to be allowed to move within 1” and therefore lock in combat all those units. This means eat overwatch from ALL the unit you MIGHT reach or not.
Are we about 50 insane people or did OP miss it intentionally?
All the units that you declare a charge against get to fire overwatch, if the charging unit us within line of sight at the beginning of its charge. IT is perfectly possible to charge from behind los-blocking terrain and thus deny incoming overwatch. Any unit that you declared a charge against, you can hit in the right phase.
But what is more valuable, is that you can use your pile-in and consolidate moves to move within 1" of an enemy unit WITHOUT declaring a charge thus not receiving any overwatch. You will not be able to fight these units, but they will be engaged and thus forced to either fight or fall back.
Not only can this deny enemy shooting, but it can hilariously boost the movement of your melee units.
Imagine a scenario where the enemy has deployed some scouts at midfield some 15 inches away from your lines. You advance 12" towards them with your gaunts, then you declare a charge against the scouts rolling a nine, eating overwatch. You proceed to move one model closer than 1" to the far side of the scout model that is furthest away. Then you move every model past the scouts, fanning out and maintaining coherency, while using up all of the available nine inch movement. Now most of your gaunts will have moved a total of 21". In the fight phase every gaunt model gets to pile-in 6" closer to the closest enemy model, and many of your gaunts will probably pile-in to enemy units up to 27" away from the gaunts starting position.
Remember to maintain unit coherency. At least until you remove casualaties.
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Post by: Resipsa131
Related to fighting the charged unit. Which models get to fight all of them or only the models that are within an inch of the models that are in base contact?
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Resipsa131 wrote:Related to fighting the charged unit. Which models get to fight all of them or only the models that are within an inch of the models that are in base contact?
Read your rulebook. It's 8 pages. Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I made a simple chart for anti-vehicle (T7/3+) that gives average damage and cost. This ONLY measures damage efficiency. If I didn't include it, it's probably because it's not cost-competitive. That is to say, a Hive Tyrant will never be a cost efficient source of anti-vehicle, because it pays a lot of points for mobility, durability, psyker powers, etc. I was hesitant to include statlines for buffed units (E.G. WS2 Genestealers via broodlord, WS2 Carnifex from charging+ OOE, etc.) because it's impossible to measure their cost on a per-model basis, but I put them in just to show the kind of efficiency gains you get from them.
I'm not really surprised to see buffed Genestealers are, by a massive margin, the best anti-tank in the book. More interesting though, is that unbuffed (WS3 A3) Genestealers are barely less effective than our most effective ranged anti-tank. They are also better than any Carnifex that isn't buffed by OOE, and only marginally worse than a Trygon. In a group of 10 or more, they're just better than the Trygon. Seeing the nice little buff Acid Maw gives wasn't a surprise, but if you notice a lack of Toxin Sac Acid Maw... it's because Acid Maw is actually WORSE than RC with TS. This is because Acid Maw allows a save on the D2 wounds, whereas the RC are -4, so it's guaranteed D2. Basically, if you are running TS genestealers, you may not want Acid Maw, or you may want to remove them first if you're trying to maximize your AT abilities. The Broodlord does an impressive amount of damage for a character who also provides synapse, SITW, buffs and is a psyker.
In shooting, the shock guard are #1 because of MW generation. Despite buffs to the Rupture cannon, the Exocrine does more damage for less. I accidentally put the exocrine BS4 value in without cutting it's shots in half, I suppose that entry can be useful for considering firing at a -1 target or something... /shrug. With Impaler cannons being more efficient and more flexible than the rupture cannon, unless you expect to run into T8 vehicles, there doesn't appear to be much reason to bring a tyrannofex. BS3 VC warriors are actually pretty efficient anti-tank, but once you include the rest of their squad, it's far less impressive. If you could keep splitting the fire and targeting infantry with the DS, then it may be worth investing in a big squad with 3 VC. To add further insult to the Tyrannofex, a HVC+2xDS Fex with BS3 is basically as cost efficient for anti-tank. Harpies and both types of dakkafex are just not good for anti-tank (Though they are a tiny bit out of order in the chart, sorry). Devourer gaunts are actually respectable for AT duties, with a full squad of 30 averaging 5.1 damage.
TL;DR - Genestealers are the most cost efficient damage in our codex. Trygons, Melee fex and Broodlords are all pretty good. Shock guard and Exocrines are our best ranged AT. Hive Guard are basically the same average as a Tyranno, though the Tyranno has a much higher damage potential.
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Post by: Amishprn86
Stone Crusher Fex is the dedicated AT fex, if you dont have that, add that.
From fast math to a Rhino he does 7.8 wounds for 105ts
Doing your math to calculate damage per point he is 13.47pts
But he has to get there....
PS, its not Rule book Pg8, thats "Battle Primer" page 8 the 12 page free rule booklet. The BRB its page 182.
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Post by: NackaNid
First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
So the Codex is just around the corner and there's a few thing I wonder about.
1. The Tyrannofex is a bit of a downer, I really thought it would be the big winner in the codex because it were so overpriced in the index. What do you guys think about Tfex with AcidPray?  For just over 200 you get a tough mini-castle that is a pain to charge. If it doesn't move it gets 4D6 autohits...! To me, that is a pretty good.
2. CP is more important then ever. Feels like you need at least 2 Battalion, preferably Kraken or Behemoth. A Vangard with 2 Hive Guard, Zoanthrope and Exocrine is really good as well for shooting. How do you think you can maximize this? I'm planning on not going first, I like the CP:s to much and it will be a lot of drops.
3. Carnifexes seems to be back in competitive fashion. To maximize this you need to mix and match for them for different roles. Whar do you think is the best configuration on carnifexes?
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
5. Spamming Smite seems to be a big thing in tournaments. With Smite and Psychic scream Tyranid has double the "smite-power"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Neurothrope can cast 2 powers. And they reroll 1s. And the cost 70 points... Supreme command with 5 Neurothrope is 350 points, 10 "smites", re-roll 1s... That is a lot of mortal wounds! If you have 2-3 units of Zoanthropes and castle it up with some shooting...? Is this even a viable option? Haven't calculated the points yet.
That's all for now, thank you for your thoughts!
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Post by: Lance845
NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
So the Codex is just around the corner and there's a few thing I wonder about.
1. The Tyrannofex is a bit of a downer, I really thought it would be the big winner in the codex because it were so overpriced in the index. What do you guys think about Tfex with AcidPray? For just over 200 you get a tough mini-castle that is a pain to charge. If it doesn't move it gets 4D6 autohits...! To me, that is a pretty good.
The issue with the Tfex continues to be range on it's weapons. Sure 4d6 sounds nice. But it will never happen. The Tfex will be shot with lascannons and other ranged vehicle killers. Nobody would ever give it the chance to stand still and shoot.
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Post by: Amishprn86
Lance845 wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
So the Codex is just around the corner and there's a few thing I wonder about.
1. The Tyrannofex is a bit of a downer, I really thought it would be the big winner in the codex because it were so overpriced in the index. What do you guys think about Tfex with AcidPray? For just over 200 you get a tough mini-castle that is a pain to charge. If it doesn't move it gets 4D6 autohits...! To me, that is a pretty good.
The issue with the Tfex continues to be range on it's weapons. Sure 4d6 sounds nice. But it will never happen. The Tfex will be shot with lascannons and other ranged vehicle killers. Nobody would ever give it the chance to stand still and shoot.
I use Acid Spray Tfex and ever game i played with it its been dbl shooting. It helps stops the -1 to hit crap, is anti-charge and anti-ds unit, you wont get to dbl shoot every turn tho, where the Cannon Tfex can.
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Post by: pismakron
Niiai wrote:
Remember to maintain unit coherency. At least until you remove casualaties.
Yes, that is a requirement. But with large blobs of gaunts (or Ork boyz, my favourite) it is pretty simple to conga-line back to what ever units that you have charged and your aura.buffs of choice.
The thing to remember is that only ONE model needs to be brought within 1" of any ONE unit on which you declared a charge. The rest of the models can use their charge move to move around as they please, as long as they maintain unit coherency, and not moves within 1" of any enemy unit that was not declared as target for the charge. This surplus charge movement is excellent for surrounding transports and for getting into position for a long pile-in + consolidate move combo.
Many players are not familiar with the intricacies of the charge move and how they interact with the pile-in + consolidate. Even good players will sometimes be surprised, when a couple of slow boy blobs suddenly consolidates into enemy units 20-24" away, because they could slingshot around some unit that had been unwisely placed in the middle of the board.
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Post by: pinecone77
NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
So the Codex is just around the corner and there's a few thing I wonder about.
1. The Tyrannofex is a bit of a downer, I really thought it would be the big winner in the codex because it were so overpriced in the index. What do you guys think about Tfex with AcidPray? For just over 200 you get a tough mini-castle that is a pain to charge. If it doesn't move it gets 4D6 autohits...! To me, that is a pretty good.
2. CP is more important then ever. Feels like you need at least 2 Battalion, preferably Kraken or Behemoth. A Vangard with 2 Hive Guard, Zoanthrope and Exocrine is really good as well for shooting. How do you think you can maximize this? I'm planning on not going first, I like the CP:s to much and it will be a lot of drops.
3. Carnifexes seems to be back in competitive fashion. To maximize this you need to mix and match for them for different roles. Whar do you think is the best configuration on carnifexes?
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
5. Spamming Smite seems to be a big thing in tournaments. With Smite and Psychic scream Tyranid has double the "smite-power"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Neurothrope can cast 2 powers. And they reroll 1s. And the cost 70 points... Supreme command with 5 Neurothrope is 350 points, 10 "smites", re-roll 1s... That is a lot of mortal wounds! If you have 2-3 units of Zoanthropes and castle it up with some shooting...? Is this even a viable option? Haven't calculated the points yet.
That's all for now, thank you for your thoughts!
5, Each unit can only Smite once though so 5 Nueros only Smite 5x, they'd need to cast something else for the second cast.
Tyranids are one of the best Smite spammers because many of our casters are quite durable. (Invulnrable saves)
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Post by: NackaNid
pinecone77 wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
So the Codex is just around the corner and there's a few thing I wonder about.
1. The Tyrannofex is a bit of a downer, I really thought it would be the big winner in the codex because it were so overpriced in the index. What do you guys think about Tfex with AcidPray? For just over 200 you get a tough mini-castle that is a pain to charge. If it doesn't move it gets 4D6 autohits...! To me, that is a pretty good.
2. CP is more important then ever. Feels like you need at least 2 Battalion, preferably Kraken or Behemoth. A Vangard with 2 Hive Guard, Zoanthrope and Exocrine is really good as well for shooting. How do you think you can maximize this? I'm planning on not going first, I like the CP:s to much and it will be a lot of drops.
3. Carnifexes seems to be back in competitive fashion. To maximize this you need to mix and match for them for different roles. Whar do you think is the best configuration on carnifexes?
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
5. Spamming Smite seems to be a big thing in tournaments. With Smite and Psychic scream Tyranid has double the "smite-power"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Neurothrope can cast 2 powers. And they reroll 1s. And the cost 70 points... Supreme command with 5 Neurothrope is 350 points, 10 "smites", re-roll 1s... That is a lot of mortal wounds! If you have 2-3 units of Zoanthropes and castle it up with some shooting...? Is this even a viable option? Haven't calculated the points yet.
That's all for now, thank you for your thoughts!
5, Each unit can only Smite once though so 5 Nueros only Smite 5x, they'd need to cast something else for the second cast.
Tyranids are one of the best Smite spammers because many of our casters are quite durable. (Invulnrable saves)
Oh, yeah! Forgot that Psychic scream only can be cast one time a turn!
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Post by: Emicrania
Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
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Post by: Amishprn86
Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
All rumors on this 1st page > http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/53797/codex-rules-preview-updated-summary?page=1
The front page i think will be for Official rules.
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Post by: Niiai
Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Read the lictor stratagem a coupel of times. It does not work the way you think on the first read.
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Post by: Amishprn86
I like Mawlocs, and i like Lictors, so I take a Jormungandr Mawloc and a Lictor, i also have 20-30 Devilgants, so if i "need" to use the 1 Cp to have the Gants come up next to the lictor over the Mawloc i can.
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Post by: Niiai
Are lictors good? I am not being sarcastick. I just don't know how to value them.
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Post by: Amishprn86
No, i just like them lol, i have like 6-7 of them 
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Post by: princeyg
Yeah, lictors are a kind of specialist redundancy package when it comes to that strategem, there to fall back on if you need it rather than being something to plan around. One goood thing I have noticed with many of the new strategems is now opponents will REALLY have to think about where they go, as we have quite a few ways of just suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
Saying that, I'm not at all a matched play kinda guy and round here we all play power level narrative games, meaning i`ll most likely combo lictors with call the brood for example coz hey! free stealers 
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Post by: luke1705
Niiai wrote:Are lictors good? I am not being sarcastick. I just don't know how to value them.
They are absolutely amazing. Yes, you need to be able to put a unit into reserves somehow in the first place (Jormungdr pre-game strat, Genestealer infestation nodes, GSC Cult Ambush, etc) but redirecting units that are in reserve MUCH further forward than they might otherwise be able to deploy (like with a bad CA roll, or just any of the other two methods) is actually make or break for competitive Nids IMO. Like real top tier competitive.
The only issue would be if they FAQ the Lictor to need to be on the board the turn prior to when you taxi the unit. Then they're hot garbage. Thankfully, as is, that is not the case currently. But that would be a truly sad FAQ.
But tbh, then we would just use Raveners for roughly double the points. It would suck a lot more, but being able to deny the alpha strike is the name of the game this edition. We are actually exceptional at that. My competitive list will have exactly 4 unit types deployed on the board, ideally 3 if I can have enough of the other kinds:
1) Mucolid Spores/spore mines. They don't give up first blood or any sort of victory points, and spore mines can even be hidden reasonably well. Could block turn 2 deep strike (or turn 1 if your opponent makes you go first)
2) Biovores. Solo squads fill up a brigade so fast and cheap....and allow more deep striking units. Also they will 100% not be in LOS turn 1
3) Hive Guard. I'm a little less sold on these guys. I probably will run a single squad for the double tap strat and because they can fire out of LOS too, which is huge.
4) Rippers. Easy to hide, Obsec. The best thing to do would be to deep strike them, but I consistently need to steal like 1 or 2 units to deploy so that the rest of my army can deep strike.
Imagine being a shooty army (which is almost all armies right now). I give you my spore mines. They deny deep strike, and the rest of my army hides out of LOS. What do you do? It's 90% as good as the all drop pod armies of old. Literally nothing to shoot at unless you can kill things out of LOS.
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Post by: Dynas
NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
Hmm.
Maybe i've got the math wrong, but it seems a HT or Flyrant with Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, and the Relic that gives the random +1Atk, Str, or Toughness in fight phase seems to be the same as the SL, but cheaper. Or leviathan take the Slayer Sabre relic. Also the Gorgon Toughness bump might be good.
217 HT with 2x Boneswords and TS, & Relic = 143+4+35+35
244 Flyrant with 2x Boneswords and TS and Relic = 170+4+35+35
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Something a lot of people aren't really taking into consideration is what to do if our deep strike is denied.
Almost all armies have reliable ways to place scout units in front of their army so that we cannot deep strike anywhere near them.
All Tyranid armies must be built with this in mind, being able to deploy entirely on the field, or heavily in reserve.
This counter DS tactics can also actually be used against the opponent.
If you are running GS and hormagaunts, and they place scouts midfield to deny the DS, you can use those DS to not only get further, but also protect against shooting.
So, what you do is move up the GS and hormagaunts, charge GS in first, but ONLY MAKE CONTACT WITH ONE MODEL. Do not get any other model within 1" of that model. We just want to have our unit within 1" so it cannot be shot. You follow this by bringing up the hormagaunts and using the minimum amount of models to completely surround the unit, or surround a single model (So that it cannot move out of 1"). By doing this, you prevent the enemy from falling back in their turn, and your units are now safe from enemy shooting. You can pile in and wipe them during their fight phase. If you are kraken, you can just fall back off of them and continue moving forward (Including repeating the trick if you need to with the tail elements of the units).
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Post by: Xenomancers
Traceoftoxin wrote:Something a lot of people aren't really taking into consideration is what to do if our deep strike is denied.
Almost all armies have reliable ways to place scout units in front of their army so that we cannot deep strike anywhere near them.
All Tyranid armies must be built with this in mind, being able to deploy entirely on the field, or heavily in reserve.
This counter DS tactics can also actually be used against the opponent.
If you are running GS and hormagaunts, and they place scouts midfield to deny the DS, you can use those DS to not only get further, but also protect against shooting.
So, what you do is move up the GS and hormagaunts, charge GS in first, but ONLY MAKE CONTACT WITH ONE MODEL. Do not get any other model within 1" of that model. We just want to have our unit within 1" so it cannot be shot. You follow this by bringing up the hormagaunts and using the minimum amount of models to completely surround the unit, or surround a single model (So that it cannot move out of 1"). By doing this, you prevent the enemy from falling back in their turn, and your units are now safe from enemy shooting. You can pile in and wipe them during their fight phase. If you are kraken, you can just fall back off of them and continue moving forward (Including repeating the trick if you need to with the tail elements of the units).
Kraken flying hives and hormagaunts. Screening units might even help us in this case.
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Post by: buddha
Lictors are also the cheapest choice for an elite slot for brigade purposes so there's that.
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Post by: Razerous
What exactly do Lictors do nowadays?
And how tough/strong are they.. I loved to use the models before, I understand now they ignore IB which is awesome!
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Post by: Amishprn86
Razerous wrote:What exactly do Lictors do nowadays?
And how tough/strong are they.. I loved to use the models before, I understand now they ignore IB which is awesome!
A single big genestealer with DS basically.... they DS in and try to do some damage.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Xenomancers wrote:Kraken flying hives and hormagaunts. Screening units might even help us in this case.
Yep. The point is to be flexible enough to turn those screening units from a hindrance into an advantage.
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Post by: Razerous
 Amishprn86 wrote:Razerous wrote:What exactly do Lictors do nowadays?
And how tough/strong are they.. I loved to use the models before, I understand now they ignore IB which is awesome!
A single big genestealer with DS basically.... they DS in and try to do some damage.
And the pheromone tail rule?
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Post by: Dynas
@ Traceoftoxin, how does that help fix the Deepstrike issue?
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Post by: Amishprn86
Razerous wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:Razerous wrote:What exactly do Lictors do nowadays?
And how tough/strong are they.. I loved to use the models before, I understand now they ignore IB which is awesome!
A single big genestealer with DS basically.... they DS in and try to do some damage.
And the pheromone tail rule?
Thats gone.... lol, there will be a 1 CP version of it for a unit that is already in reserves.....
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Post by: buddha
Anyone else thinking muciolid spores might be a fun use for the pheremone trail rule? Get those mortal wounds nice and close.
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Post by: Niiai
 buddha wrote:Anyone else thinking muciolid spores might be a fun use for the pheremone trail rule? Get those mortal wounds nice and close.
You sir, might be a genius!
1 cmp place lictor, place spore mines 9" from enemy.
1cmp use the 2x move stragem that prevents charging and shooting. Roll a 3+ on your run. Now you are 6 near enemies. Mortal wounds abound!
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Post by: Emicrania
Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Read the lictor stratagem a coupel of times. It does not work the way you think on the first read.
For what I understood it makes a raveners like a trygon for 1 CP, but your comment is making me feel insecure about it..
40841
Post by: Traceoftoxin
Dynas wrote:@ Traceoftoxin, how does that help fix the Deepstrike issue?
You counter the counter. If you 100% rely on deepstrike, you will get 100% shut down if they counter it. By being flexible with your deployments, you can take advantage of their counter deployment to gain movement and protection from shooting.
33527
Post by: Niiai
Emicrania wrote: Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Read the lictor stratagem a coupel of times. It does not work the way you think on the first read.
For what I understood it makes a raveners like a trygon for 1 CP, but your comment is making me feel insecure about it..
Ravnares work like you think. But liktors need the unit to be already in reserve. And their stratagem needs an FAQ if you can use it the same turn as you place it (as we currently can do)
84200
Post by: Emicrania
Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote: Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Read the lictor stratagem a coupel of times. It does not work the way you think on the first read.
For what I understood it makes a raveners like a trygon for 1 CP, but your comment is making me feel insecure about it..
Ravnares work like you think. But liktors need the unit to be already in reserve. And their stratagem needs an FAQ if you can use it the same turn as you place it (as we currently can do)
So lictors can’t be used as a taxi and cannot be placed wherever as per alpha strike, because another unit need to be there a turn before?
33527
Post by: Niiai
Emicrania wrote: Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote: Niiai wrote: Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Read the lictor stratagem a coupel of times. It does not work the way you think on the first read.
For what I understood it makes a raveners like a trygon for 1 CP, but your comment is making me feel insecure about it..
Ravnares work like you think. But liktors need the unit to be already in reserve. And their stratagem needs an FAQ if you can use it the same turn as you place it (as we currently can do)
So lictors can’t be used as a taxi and cannot be placed wherever as per alpha strike, because another unit need to be there a turn before?
Almost. Currently the wording is that a lictor can be placed the same turn and then you use pheremon trail. It is unclear if this is RAW or RAI, so an FAQ can change this.
The lictor can only affect units that are not ealreayd placed on the table. But it does not give deep strike to any unit. So you need to find units that start in reserve. (Genestealer nodes, genestealer cult, spore mines etc.)
10335
Post by: Razerous
So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?
A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?
Because (if so) sweet!
116025
Post by: Dynas
Ok i am playing with this, taking an HQ detacahment of like 3 Nueronthropes and making them Kronus and just spread them out to put on the Kronus SitW Debuff.
Or
Patrol
Flyrnat with the Balethron cannon make him the warlord
3x Rippers
Spread the rippers out and you can easily cover the board with the 24" bubbles and shut down enemy pyskic phase.
I like the later better for the gun and Warlord traits and strategems. Plus its only 250 points, You can still get a Brigade with whatever other fleet you want.
This can easily make Eldar, Grey Knights, Tzeetch, Smite Spam list crumble for such cheap points.
33527
Post by: Niiai
Razerous wrote:So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?
A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?
Because (if so) sweet!
Nooooooope. 9" away. If you take a trygon for warriors you can use the lictor. But if they are in a tyrgon taxi, why pay the command point for mr. lictor? That is why I preface that it does not work like you think it works when you first read it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dynas wrote:Ok i am playing with this, taking an HQ detacahment of like 3 Nueronthropes and making them Kronus and just spread them out to put on the Kronus SitW Debuff.
Or
Patrol
Flyrnat with the Balethron cannon make him the warlord
3x Rippers
Spread the rippers out and you can easily cover the board with the 24" bubbles and shut down enemy pyskic phase.
I like the later better for the gun and Warlord traits and strategems. Plus its only 250 points, You can still get a Brigade with whatever other fleet you want.
This can easily make Eldar, Grey Knights, Tzeetch, Smite Spam list crumble for such cheap points.
Kronos spore mines can use the stratagem though? OMG! Have a biovore drop spore mines. Go Kronos!
114227
Post by: NackaNid
Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
Hmm.
Maybe i've got the math wrong, but it seems a HT or Flyrant with Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, and the Relic that gives the random +1Atk, Str, or Toughness in fight phase seems to be the same as the SL, but cheaper. Or leviathan take the Slayer Sabre relic. Also the Gorgon Toughness bump might be good.
217 HT with 2x Boneswords and TS, & Relic = 143+4+35+35
244 Flyrant with 2x Boneswords and TS and Relic = 170+4+35+35
Haha, sorry! I always use 2x MST and AG with the flyrant. Thats were the 195pts comes from.
Good points!
93221
Post by: Lance845
Emicrania wrote:Where are the rumors about the lictors/ravener taxi?
Can’t find em and they are not on the 1st page
Yeah sorry about that. A day or so after the rumors stopped coming I decided it would be good to start switching over to the actual tactics instead of rumors since we got almost everything actually confirmed. I am still updating the first post to have the data in there.
Lictor Taxi is he pheromone trail stratagem.
Raveners is the jormungandr stratagem.
116025
Post by: Dynas
NackaNid wrote: Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
Hmm.
Maybe i've got the math wrong, but it seems a HT or Flyrant with Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, and the Relic that gives the random +1Atk, Str, or Toughness in fight phase seems to be the same as the SL, but cheaper. Or leviathan take the Slayer Sabre relic. Also the Gorgon Toughness bump might be good.
217 HT with 2x Boneswords and TS, & Relic = 143+4+35+35
244 Flyrant with 2x Boneswords and TS and Relic = 170+4+35+35
Haha, sorry! I always use 2x MST and AG with the flyrant. Thats were the 195pts comes from.
Good points!
I am not saying your points are wrong, i was questioning mine lol. Just trying to see if the 3++ invul in CC and SL power to have a unit move is worth 60-80 points. Plus with the HT with Boneswords, you can pick any Warlord trait you want. I might be missing something, but I will definitely look into this when the codex drops. I personally don't think the extra +1 invul and the power is worth the extra points. Especially since there are all kinds of traits to buff your units now.
93221
Post by: Lance845
Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote: Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
Hmm.
Maybe i've got the math wrong, but it seems a HT or Flyrant with Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, and the Relic that gives the random +1Atk, Str, or Toughness in fight phase seems to be the same as the SL, but cheaper. Or leviathan take the Slayer Sabre relic. Also the Gorgon Toughness bump might be good.
217 HT with 2x Boneswords and TS, & Relic = 143+4+35+35
244 Flyrant with 2x Boneswords and TS and Relic = 170+4+35+35
Haha, sorry! I always use 2x MST and AG with the flyrant. Thats were the 195pts comes from.
Good points!
I am not saying your points are wrong, i was questioning mine lol. Just trying to see if the 3++ invul in CC and SL power to have a unit move is worth 60-80 points. Plus with the HT with Boneswords, you can pick any Warlord trait you want. I might be missing something, but I will definitely look into this when the codex drops. I personally don't think the extra +1 invul and the power is worth the extra points. Especially since there are all kinds of traits to buff your units now.
You know, the rumor said he had to have the leviathan wl trait. But when I saw the datasheet in one of the leaks it didn't say that anywhere on there. Curious if that bit is true.
44304
Post by: str00dles1
GW confirmed a few days ago that all named characters "swarmlord/one eye" can be from any hive fleet you want
40841
Post by: Traceoftoxin
Lance845 wrote: Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote: Dynas wrote:NackaNid wrote:First of: Thank you everybody for the effort and devotion you guys have for 40k, amazing! Keep up the good work!
4. Swarmlord and Flyrant is back and is more resilient than ever. The thing is that for 300 points, the Swarmlord is not worth the points. I always took him for the Hive commander but now with the adaptations I feel that Genestealers and other units is so fast that this doesn't have the impact it did. The Hive Tyrant is 105 points cheaper and with a lot more options. And because carnifexes is both cheap and very good, OOE is a really good HQ-option.
Hmm.
Maybe i've got the math wrong, but it seems a HT or Flyrant with Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, and the Relic that gives the random +1Atk, Str, or Toughness in fight phase seems to be the same as the SL, but cheaper. Or leviathan take the Slayer Sabre relic. Also the Gorgon Toughness bump might be good.
217 HT with 2x Boneswords and TS, & Relic = 143+4+35+35
244 Flyrant with 2x Boneswords and TS and Relic = 170+4+35+35
Haha, sorry! I always use 2x MST and AG with the flyrant. Thats were the 195pts comes from.
Good points!
I am not saying your points are wrong, i was questioning mine lol. Just trying to see if the 3++ invul in CC and SL power to have a unit move is worth 60-80 points. Plus with the HT with Boneswords, you can pick any Warlord trait you want. I might be missing something, but I will definitely look into this when the codex drops. I personally don't think the extra +1 invul and the power is worth the extra points. Especially since there are all kinds of traits to buff your units now.
You know, the rumor said he had to have the leviathan wl trait. But when I saw the datasheet in one of the leaks it didn't say that anywhere on there. Curious if that bit is true.
It will be on the warlord trait page.
70127
Post by: luke1705
Razerous wrote:So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?
A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?
Because (if so) sweet!
As addressed by Nilal, no you still need to be 9" away from the enemy.
All lictors do is allow you to redirect a unit that is coming in from reserves and allow it to come in next to the lictor.
This may seem sort of situational, as most units that can deep strike can already go wherever they want on their own. A couple notable uses:
1) Genestealers. They are allowed to deploy in reserve by their nodes, but those nodes must be placed in your deployment zone. A lictor allows them to instead be placed anywhere on the board as per normal deep strike, given that it is close enough to the lictor and still 9" away from enemy units. This is a big boon, and the primary use for which the stratagem was intended.
2) GSC Cult Ambush. Not all of their results allow you to deep strike normally. Roll a 1, 2, or 3 and instead spend a CP to redirect the unit right next to the lictor.
Unfortunately, both of these uses do need an FAQ. As the rule is written, it is unambiguous that the lictor can come down on turn 1 and so can the unit that it is "transporting". However, whether the intent is that the Lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn or not is unclear to some because they recall previously when this used to be the case for certain units. The same question applies to Cult Ambush. If the lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn before any deep striking units are deployed, this stratagem is effectively worthless. But pending an FAQ that reverses RAW, you can deep strike the unit that you're transporting at the same time as the Lictor.
The other issue is specific to Cult Ambush. Can you actually "redirect" the unit after you decide that you don't like it's roll, or do you have to use the stratagem before you roll the d6? I believe it is the former, but this could use an FAQ as well.
33527
Post by: Niiai
For the time being, a lictor, 5 maguses with 5 powerpoints can allow you a quite good smite battery vs T8 things.
801
Post by: buddha
Initially thinking two battalions to get two complementary hive fleets Kraken and Kronos without having to go full brigade for CP. Should be about 2k with the plus and minus point changes:
Kronos:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, rending claws, relic HVC
Malanthrope
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Warriors: Boneswords and Deathspitters
3 Hive Gaurd: Imaplers
Exocrine
Shooting element that can shut down any psychic enemy.
Kraken:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, Two talons
Broodlord
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
30 Termgants
Trygon
The heavy CC portion. Why Kraken? Pairs best with the genestealers charge and advance rules and allows you to disengage in a turn to allow the shooting element to do it's thing then just re-charge back in.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
83316
Post by: Zimko
Can named characters like Old One Eye take relics?
113563
Post by: combatcotton
Nope. They get any hive fleet adaptation, but no relics.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.
So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.
I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.
801
Post by: buddha
Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
116025
Post by: Dynas
Marmatag wrote:but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.
So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.
I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.
Yup do this and suicide charge into the heavy gunline, razorbacks, w/e and lockem them up.
Take Hydra, after they die, just respawn them on board edge, and recharge. Basically have an endless tarpit unit with a 30-40" threat range.
801
Post by: buddha
Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
83175
Post by: pinecone77
buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon. 
801
Post by: buddha
pinecone77 wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.
Oh, already bringing that gem on my other hive tyrant. That thing is a near must take in any army.
83175
Post by: pinecone77
luke1705 wrote:Razerous wrote:So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?
A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?
Because (if so) sweet!
As addressed by Nilal, no you still need to be 9" away from the enemy.
All lictors do is allow you to redirect a unit that is coming in from reserves and allow it to come in next to the lictor.
This may seem sort of situational, as most units that can deep strike can already go wherever they want on their own. A couple notable uses:
1) Genestealers. They are allowed to deploy in reserve by their nodes, but those nodes must be placed in your deployment zone. A lictor allows them to instead be placed anywhere on the board as per normal deep strike, given that it is close enough to the lictor and still 9" away from enemy units. This is a big boon, and the primary use for which the stratagem was intended.
2) GSC Cult Ambush. Not all of their results allow you to deep strike normally. Roll a 1, 2, or 3 and instead spend a CP to redirect the unit right next to the lictor.
Unfortunately, both of these uses do need an FAQ. As the rule is written, it is unambiguous that the lictor can come down on turn 1 and so can the unit that it is "transporting". However, whether the intent is that the Lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn or not is unclear to some because they recall previously when this used to be the case for certain units. The same question applies to Cult Ambush. If the lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn before any deep striking units are deployed, this stratagem is effectively worthless. But pending an FAQ that reverses RAW, you can deep strike the unit that you're transporting at the same time as the Lictor.
The other issue is specific to Cult Ambush. Can you actually "redirect" the unit after you decide that you don't like it's roll, or do you have to use the stratagem before you roll the d6? I believe it is the former, but this could use an FAQ as well.
As written Lictors make Infestation nodes much more powerful. The foe is not sure where the Stealers will appear, And you can Lictor then into the backfield. I'd set the Nodes back, and out of LOS as much as possable, and have a least one able to babysit my gunbeasts against DS. 
DS looks a lot riskier when I can pop some Stealers out and counter charge, if he drops next to the Node, he is far from the gun beasts.  I'd need to read the rule carefully to know if it works vs (Tyranid), or (Hive Fleet). If it does Lictors are a major boon to GSC.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Help my exhausted work brain: miasma cannon relic? What is the relic?
83175
Post by: pinecone77
Right now I think you'd want to deploy your Stealers if you have first turn, and Node them to weather an Alpha strike....very nice options. Automatically Appended Next Post: Marmatag wrote:Help my exhausted work brain: miasma cannon relic? What is the relic?
Super HVC, also Auto hits at 8" or less....
93221
Post by: Lance845
Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Lance845 wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.
Yes I understand how fly works, but i'm also not enthused in regards to recharging the Flyrant without some kind of melee weapon. Remember charging units have to fight first. So if you left someone in melee last turn, and they want to interrupt, they can do so after your naked melee flyrant swings.
I like the relic though, the super heavy venom cannon.
105727
Post by: princeyg
yeah, my Flyrant already had a hvc and my colour scheme is kraken anways, first thing i saw was auto hitting HVC??? Yes Please!! couple this with a set of MRC and you`ve got one heck of a threat able to fall back, shoot (probably still auto hitting) and charge while still being a psyker!! The new 4+ invul is just icing on an already delicious cake.
116025
Post by: Dynas
The nodes have good uses. You get 4. so you can use them in the following ways:
Place them on objectives in your Deployment zone to keep enemy warry of trying to cap an objective (especially good if they have a card for that objective). Makes them decide if getting the objective is worth potentially losing unit.
Place one way in the back or in safe area hard to reach to ensure you can get the Genestealers on the board without having to worry about them getting shot turn 1.
Place them on/near the board edges to guard against potential outflanking units.
You can place them in a more aggressive way in hope of luring the enemy out of position so he can try and "cap/eliminate" them.
Place them all to cover one another 9.5" apart, so if enemy gets close enough to take out one, then the other node allows them to cover/bait the other units.
Can place them on the edge of your deployment zone, especially against defensive armies like Tau, IG, Gunlines and then deploy to get an extra 6" of movement.
Thats all i can think of at the moment.
40841
Post by: Traceoftoxin
Marmatag wrote:but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.
So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.
I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.
Swarmlord has a lot of power, but is he worth 300 pts? That's the hardest part to me. With Kraken you can get 18" of movement reliably out of them, and with onslaught they can still charge. Considering the average of 7" on your charge, you should have no problem reaching a target 25" away. If they don't have ANYTHING within 25", then all of your deep strike capable elements should have been free to arrive right at their 9" line.
Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Kraken flyrants should be 2x DS/ Dev and MRC. Takes advantage of being able to bounce out of combat, gun down fire support units, and charge others.
Dynas wrote:
Take Hydra, after they die, just respawn them on board edge, and recharge. Basically have an endless tarpit unit with a 30-40" threat range.
You have to pay for the respawns in matched play.
Extended carapace costing points makes it much less attractive to me, but without the 3+ I'm not sold on using Jormungandr for stealers. But you can't use more than 1 lictor pheromone trail per turn, so if you want to have the option to do a full null-deploy style attack (Obviously with 50% in rippers or whatever on the board) you must have Jormungandr or Trygons. The other option is go full Kraken or Leviathan and deploy fully on the board with a few deep strike options (1 trygon, 1 lictor, etc.) and hope the speed or 6+++ keeps enough alive to get you where you need to be.
108023
Post by: Marmatag
Traceoftoxin wrote: Marmatag wrote:but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.
So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.
I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.
Swarmlord has a lot of power, but is he worth 300 pts? That's the hardest part to me. With Kraken you can get 18" of movement reliably out of them, and with onslaught they can still charge. Considering the average of 7" on your charge, you should have no problem reaching a target 25" away. If they don't have ANYTHING within 25", then all of your deep strike capable elements should have been free to arrive right at their 9" line.
Kraken flyrants should be 2x DS/ Dev and MRC. Takes advantage of being able to bounce out of combat, gun down fire support units, and charge others.
Wait, are you saying 2 devourers and monstrous rending claws?
I can't say if the Swarmlord is worth 300 points. But being able to reliably charge turn 1 is a big deal, and he gives you that. And you get to reposition him after the seize roll. So you already know who is going first guaranteed.
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Post by: Lance845
Marmatag wrote: Lance845 wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.
Yes I understand how fly works, but i'm also not enthused in regards to recharging the Flyrant without some kind of melee weapon. Remember charging units have to fight first. So if you left someone in melee last turn, and they want to interrupt, they can do so after your naked melee flyrant swings.
I like the relic though, the super heavy venom cannon.
Bring rending claws and the miasma cannon. Fall back, get a bunch of autohits that wound on 2+ vs non vehicles, charge back in and murder.
Build for both. Do both.
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Post by: pinecone77
buddha wrote:Initially thinking two battalions to get two complementary hive fleets Kraken and Kronos without having to go full brigade for CP. Should be about 2k with the plus and minus point changes:
Kronos:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, rending claws, relic HVC
Malanthrope
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Warriors: Boneswords and Deathspitters
3 Hive Gaurd: Imaplers
Exocrine
Shooting element that can shut down any psychic enemy.
Kraken:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, Two talons
Broodlord
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
30 Termgants
Trygon
The heavy CC portion. Why Kraken? Pairs best with the genestealers charge and advance rules and allows you to disengage in a turn to allow the shooting element to do it's thing then just re-charge back in.
AH, I'd put the Balethorn Relic in Kronos, and Miasma Cannon in Kraken 
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Post by: Deshkar
pinecone77 wrote:AH, I'd put the Balethorn Relic in Kronos, and Miasma Cannon in Kraken
But you can only take one for free.
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Post by: pinecone77
Yep, thats why I said I'd spend a cp for the Miasma up stream.
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Post by: SHUPPET
posting here to subscribe, nothing to add for now
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Post by: Astmeister
Traceoftoxin wrote:Resipsa131 wrote:Related to fighting the charged unit. Which models get to fight all of them or only the models that are within an inch of the models that are in base contact?
Read your rulebook. It's 8 pages.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I made a simple chart for anti-vehicle (T7/3+) that gives average damage and cost. This ONLY measures damage efficiency. If I didn't include it, it's probably because it's not cost-competitive. That is to say, a Hive Tyrant will never be a cost efficient source of anti-vehicle, because it pays a lot of points for mobility, durability, psyker powers, etc. I was hesitant to include statlines for buffed units (E.G. WS2 Genestealers via broodlord, WS2 Carnifex from charging+ OOE, etc.) because it's impossible to measure their cost on a per-model basis, but I put them in just to show the kind of efficiency gains you get from them.
I'm not really surprised to see buffed Genestealers are, by a massive margin, the best anti-tank in the book. More interesting though, is that unbuffed (WS3 A3) Genestealers are barely less effective than our most effective ranged anti-tank. They are also better than any Carnifex that isn't buffed by OOE, and only marginally worse than a Trygon. In a group of 10 or more, they're just better than the Trygon. Seeing the nice little buff Acid Maw gives wasn't a surprise, but if you notice a lack of Toxin Sac Acid Maw... it's because Acid Maw is actually WORSE than RC with TS. This is because Acid Maw allows a save on the D2 wounds, whereas the RC are -4, so it's guaranteed D2. Basically, if you are running TS genestealers, you may not want Acid Maw, or you may want to remove them first if you're trying to maximize your AT abilities. The Broodlord does an impressive amount of damage for a character who also provides synapse, SITW, buffs and is a psyker.
In shooting, the shock guard are #1 because of MW generation. Despite buffs to the Rupture cannon, the Exocrine does more damage for less. I accidentally put the exocrine BS4 value in without cutting it's shots in half, I suppose that entry can be useful for considering firing at a -1 target or something... /shrug. With Impaler cannons being more efficient and more flexible than the rupture cannon, unless you expect to run into T8 vehicles, there doesn't appear to be much reason to bring a tyrannofex. BS3 VC warriors are actually pretty efficient anti-tank, but once you include the rest of their squad, it's far less impressive. If you could keep splitting the fire and targeting infantry with the DS, then it may be worth investing in a big squad with 3 VC. To add further insult to the Tyrannofex, a HVC+2xDS Fex with BS3 is basically as cost efficient for anti-tank. Harpies and both types of dakkafex are just not good for anti-tank (Though they are a tiny bit out of order in the chart, sorry). Devourer gaunts are actually respectable for AT duties, with a full squad of 30 averaging 5.1 damage.
TL;DR - Genestealers are the most cost efficient damage in our codex. Trygons, Melee fex and Broodlords are all pretty good. Shock guard and Exocrines are our best ranged AT. Hive Guard are basically the same average as a Tyranno, though the Tyranno has a much higher damage potential.
Your chart is really usefull, however it misses some softskills on the Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon.
It is not always just about points per damage. Especially with vehicles, you want to drop the thing as fast as possible. Transporters more than anything else. In this case the Rupture Cannon really shines and we should not forget its potential on using a CP reroll on the damage to destroy whatever you want.
I think that a T-Fex is well worth it against vehicles.
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Post by: NackaNid
How will you use the nodes for genestealers?
If it were in the beginning of the movement-phase that they can get out of hiding, it would be awesome. But now, feels like it's only situational.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
You get so little for adding an additional melle weapon +1 attack is weak when you can have a good ranged weapon for the same cost. MRC are free. I'm just going to give my kraken flyrants HVC or double dev and MRC Automatically Appended Next Post: pinecone77 wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.
You do get 1 free relic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't always include the miasma cannon
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Post by: N.I.B.
Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
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Post by: Amishprn86
 N.I.B. wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
Everything i've seen said its the same? Can you point out where its leaked to be different? i'm looking my self but in case i cant find.
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Post by: Tyran
Amishprn86 wrote: N.I.B. wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
Everything i've seen said its the same? Can you point out where its leaked to be different? i'm looking my self but in case i cant find.
The Living Bombs rule was changed to "Spore Mines created by other units don't pay reinforcement points".
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Post by: Amishprn86
Tyran wrote: Amishprn86 wrote: N.I.B. wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
Everything i've seen said its the same? Can you point out where its leaked to be different? i'm looking my self but in case i cant find.
The Living Bombs rule was changed to "Spore Mines created by other units don't pay reinforcement points".
Then the 3CP literally is pointless, GW will have to faq that. B.c you can take the FW ones and do the same thing for free.....
Meiotic Spore "Once both armies are fully deployed, just before the first battle round begins, you may place this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12" from any enemy unit"
Why spend 120pts and 3cp, when you can just spend 120pts and no CP?
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Post by: Tyran
Amishprn86 wrote:Tyran wrote: Amishprn86 wrote: N.I.B. wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
Everything i've seen said its the same? Can you point out where its leaked to be different? i'm looking my self but in case i cant find.
The Living Bombs rule was changed to "Spore Mines created by other units don't pay reinforcement points".
Then the 3CP literally is pointless, GW will have to faq that. B.c you can take the FW ones and do the same thing for free.....
Meiotic Spore "Once both armies are fully deployed, just before the first battle round begins, you may place this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12" from any enemy unit"
Why spend 120pts and 3cp, when you can just spend 120pts and no CP?
Honestly I believe that Matched Play needs to include some free reinforcement points for all those abilities and stratagems that use them. Also some of the restrictions need to be changed so they can scale with the game.
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Post by: Resipsa131
Regarding free reinforcements. It looks as if Tervigons are unchanged from the index. I kind of thought they'd get a 20-30 point price decrease. I love the model, its my favorite in the WH40K universe but 250points for a baby maker is quite expensive.
How would you run a Tervigon based army as Gorgon and take the relic that grants +1T after the first phase its has suffered a wound?
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Post by: Cephalobeard
Tyran wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:Tyran wrote: Amishprn86 wrote: N.I.B. wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:No... they are worded "no reinforcement points" anything that would take reinforcement points means you dont pay for them, this includes stratagems.
The wording is changed in the codex. Unfortunately this is our only pre-game option to box in enemy units (not counting FW Mieotic Spores) after deployment, using the crucial advantage of knowing whether or not you have the first turn. Probably not worth it, since you would need a ~6" roll to do the job well.
Everything i've seen said its the same? Can you point out where its leaked to be different? i'm looking my self but in case i cant find.
The Living Bombs rule was changed to "Spore Mines created by other units don't pay reinforcement points".
Then the 3CP literally is pointless, GW will have to faq that. B.c you can take the FW ones and do the same thing for free.....
Meiotic Spore "Once both armies are fully deployed, just before the first battle round begins, you may place this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12" from any enemy unit"
Why spend 120pts and 3cp, when you can just spend 120pts and no CP?
Honestly I believe that Matched Play needs to include some free reinforcement points for all those abilities and stratagems that use them. Also some of the restrictions need to be changed so they can scale with the game.
This. Matched Play rules are the problem, not the units or stratagems. Be angry with them. GW is writing everything for these abilities properly, it's the *competitive* rules that say you can't do things.
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Post by: luke1705
Hey is there any way to reserve hormagants or termagants except with the jormungdr stratagem or Trygons?
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Post by: Niiai
luke1705 wrote:Hey is there any way to reserve hormagants or termagants except with the jormungdr stratagem or Trygons?
Spore, but that is not what you are asking. What about cultist mooks?
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Post by: Amishprn86
luke1705 wrote:Hey is there any way to reserve hormagants or termagants except with the jormungdr stratagem or Trygons?
Tyrannocyte pods....
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Post by: Dynas
Resipsa131 wrote:Regarding free reinforcements. It looks as if Tervigons are unchanged from the index. I kind of thought they'd get a 20-30 point price decrease. I love the model, its my favorite in the WH40K universe but 250points for a baby maker is quite expensive.
How would you run a Tervigon based army as Gorgon and take the relic that grants +1T after the first phase its has suffered a wound?
Better off taking Jormagandr, or Leviathan, give the cover save bonus or FNP.
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Post by: luke1705
That’s what I figured. Debating whether I can fit a pod in or if I want to have a separate Jormungdr Detachment....giving up that Kraken trait is too juicy I think. But man those pods are expensive! Almost worth just grabbing a Trygon instead....hmmm
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Post by: Timeshadow
I plan on having 2 separate detachments with Kronos for one and the other will evolve depending on the list.
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Post by: Dynas
luke1705 wrote:That’s what I figured. Debating whether I can fit a pod in or if I want to have a separate Jormungdr Detachment....giving up that Kraken trait is too juicy I think. But man those pods are expensive! Almost worth just grabbing a Trygon instead....hmmm
Pods can only take 20 gants as well. Pods are best for MC, trygon is better for hordes.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Death spitters went down in price a bit. Is the barbed strangler still expensive as heck? if you could get 5 stranglers on it for less points it might not be too terrible. Figure the deep strike is worth 40 points for a MC. What is the remaining cost of the pod with stranglers?
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Post by: Zimko
I think the Trygon is very much worthwhile. A Prime with adrenal glands is now 203 points. It dropped by 16 points. They're a big threat that can get into melee turn 1 and will require a bit of shooting to kill. I'm considering giving mine the Kraken relic for -1 to hit because I know he'll get a lot of value out of it.
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Post by: Marmatag
 Zimko wrote:I think the Trygon is very much worthwhile. A Prime with adrenal glands is now 203 points. It dropped by 16 points. They're a big threat that can get into melee turn 1 and will require a bit of shooting to kill. I'm considering giving mine the Kraken relic for -1 to hit because I know he'll get a lot of value out of it.
That drop in price is welcome but I was hoping it would be more. I want to run double trygon but it's tough to find the points.
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Post by: Zimko
Marmatag wrote: Zimko wrote:I think the Trygon is very much worthwhile. A Prime with adrenal glands is now 203 points. It dropped by 16 points. They're a big threat that can get into melee turn 1 and will require a bit of shooting to kill. I'm considering giving mine the Kraken relic for -1 to hit because I know he'll get a lot of value out of it.
That drop in price is welcome but I was hoping it would be more. I want to run double trygon but it's tough to find the points.
Indeed. Right now I'm looking at double Trygon with 30 devgaunts and 30 hormagaunts. I'm undecided between behemoth and kraken. Maybe both?
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Post by: Spoletta
Lance check your PM. Automatically Appended Next Post: Zimko wrote: Marmatag wrote: Zimko wrote:I think the Trygon is very much worthwhile. A Prime with adrenal glands is now 203 points. It dropped by 16 points. They're a big threat that can get into melee turn 1 and will require a bit of shooting to kill. I'm considering giving mine the Kraken relic for -1 to hit because I know he'll get a lot of value out of it.
That drop in price is welcome but I was hoping it would be more. I want to run double trygon but it's tough to find the points.
Indeed. Right now I'm looking at double Trygon with 30 devgaunts and 30 hormagaunts. I'm undecided between behemoth and kraken. Maybe both?
2 Trygons and Horma coming out of that screams Behemoth.
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Post by: Lance845
I have been. I have it set up for a big update.This weekend should see a lot of stuff on the OP. Busy during the week right now with work.
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Post by: Spoletta
Lance845 wrote:I have been. I have it set up for a big update.This weekend should see a lot of stuff on the OP. Busy during the week right now with work.
That's fine man, thanks.
I'll proceed with the troops then.
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Post by: pinecone77
Xenomancers wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
You get so little for adding an additional melle weapon +1 attack is weak when you can have a good ranged weapon for the same cost. MRC are free. I'm just going to give my kraken flyrants HVC or double dev and MRC
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pinecone77 wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote: buddha wrote: Marmatag wrote:Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.
Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.
But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.
Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.
You do get 1 free relic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't always include the miasma cannon
If you're Kronos, take the Balethorn, otherwise the Miasma looks awesome...if you're running multiple Tyrants ..take both. Ignoring Invulns is a major thing, almost nothing does that.
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Post by: Dynas
Pathogenic Slime: 2 CP, add 1 to the damage of a Tyranid Monster in your army during the shooting phase.
So throw this down on a Dakkafex of Dakka Flyrant or Exocrine and you are gonna shred big baddies like IK, Guilliman, Montarion.
Anyone able to do the mathhammer on that?
Edit: Ok, what am i missing on this loadout.
Take a Hive Tyrant or Flyrant, can swap out the the Sycthing talons for Monstrous boneswords, do this for both sets, so you got 4 Monsterous boneswords. Take Toxin sacs +1 dmg on 6's, take behemoth warlord trait of monsterous hunger, another +1 dmg. N
Now take this relice The Reaper of Obliterax: replaces a model’s Bonesword or Monstrous Bonesword in a pair with a Lashwhip. On a wound roll of a 6+, the weapon inflicts double damage.
This is a potential for 8 damage on a roll of 6. Does this only apply to a single sword, or would this be all the boneswords since they are the same weapon, ie that would be a potential 32 damage? The way its written it appears to be only a single sword, if thats the case, would you just take a gun instead.
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Post by: luke1705
My issue with the Trygon is that if we can do what it does (bring a unit of infantry in) for CP instead of points, then it's kind of like the double space marine formation of old - getting abilities for CP, so if I take a stratagem that I use 3 times that does the same thing as 3 Trygons or 3 pods, then most of their utility is absorbed and I effectively have 2,300 or 2,600 points in my 2,000 point army list.
This is exaggerated of course, as I am aware that you can do a lot of beautiful things with both of those units once they hit the table, but I do firmly believe that a 12-15 CP Tyranid list is the best kind of Tyranid list. We just have so many amazing stratagems.
I'm actually disappointed because I think I might need to do a triple battalion list, but we have such cheap options for brigades. It's basically 300 points + compulsory HQ and 3 troops to fill out the necessary slots, meaning that I can and will turn at least 1 battalion into a brigade for....486 points. That's a steal.
In fact, I wonder if a double brigade list could work? Hmmm....21 CP sounds DELICIOUS!
Edit: I tried...It's too much nothing and too little teeth haha. Might be able to pull a Brigade + Battalion....but likely I'm looking at a Brigade + 2 outriders or something (because mucolids) or a Brigade + 2 patrols (because rippers)
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Post by: Marmatag
I think 1 Trygon is enough. TBH. It all depends on what your opponent's weakness is, maybe you'll want the dakkagants up close, maybe the hormagants.
I see myself running 3x 20x squads of hormagants rather than 2x 30s, but i need to experiment. Our psychic powers scale better on squads of 30 but i can stretch my points further and get more CPs the other way.
Neuro Neuro 60 Hormas = +3 cp and under 450 pts. You've got 3 morale immune blobs that can march up the field if needed. Make them jormungandr and you've got 60 conscripts without guns... a very tough nut to crack as 8th edition has proven multiple times.
I may incorporate a tyrannocyte for the swarmlord so he can beta.
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Post by: Razerous
1 Trygon and 3 Mawlocs.
Yes and please.
Now we have cheap dakkafexes and dakka flyrants, even better
(Question: Can my Flyrants get 12 shots and have MRC? Or is it only 6 shots and MRC?)
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Post by: Xenomancers
Trygons are actually really good I think. I kinda like the 30 dakka gaunts in a trygon - hit them with shoot twice stratgem. Then you shunt the tygon into a tank and pretty much 1 shot it. It starts getting risky though without swarmlord. Adrendal glands is a must if you go without swarmy. You are above 50% charge if you have a command point and adrenal glands though.
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Post by: Marmatag
The big downside to the Swarmlord is his cost, at 300 points that's a pretty insane price tag. I want to field him because he enables some really nice strategies, but he will die in seconds if you fail some 4++ saves, which is incredibly easy to do.
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Post by: Zimko
Razerous wrote:1 Trygon and 3 Mawlocs.
Yes and please.
Now we have cheap dakkafexes and dakka flyrants, even better
(Question: Can my Flyrants get 12 shots and have MRC? Or is it only 6 shots and MRC?)
With devourers you can get 12 shots and have a pair of MRC.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Marmatag wrote:The big downside to the Swarmlord is his cost, at 300 points that's a pretty insane price tag. I want to field him because he enables some really nice strategies, but he will die in seconds if you fail some 4++ saves, which is incredibly easy to do.
Almost the cost of 2 tygons. When you think about it like that Swarmy really isn't that good. Hes a good fighter for sure though. He's got a 3++ in CC now - pretty brutal.
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Post by: Lance845
Razerous wrote:1 Trygon and 3 Mawlocs.
Yes and please.
Now we have cheap dakkafexes and dakka flyrants, even better
(Question: Can my Flyrants get 12 shots and have MRC? Or is it only 6 shots and MRC?)
12 with devourers 6 with death spitters.
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Post by: Marmatag
Well his free warp time in the shooting phase is what sets him apart.
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Post by: Dynas
luke1705 wrote:
In fact, I wonder if a double brigade list could work? Hmmm....21 CP sounds DELICIOUS!
I was able to get a 3 battalions and a spearhead, 1 battalion is Kronos, everything else is behemoth. 13 CP. Plus if i get my Genestealers (2x units of 16) or broodlord to kill a character you can use the feeder tendrils stratagem for a chance to net 2 more CP.
With the Kronus, I spread those guys out and basically shut down Pysker phase, spam pyskic scream until they lose all their good spells. And I spammed Termigants to get the rerolls on 1's
The behemoth has genestealers, hormies, 3x trygon, a nasty Flyrant, all DS in. All melee, all reroll charges.
Ripper fill cheap troop slots. BL to buff genestealers, 2 Malanthropes for bubbles.
I highly doubt we can just pay the CP points only to bring the extra units without having to pay the points, pretty sure it will make us hold as reinforcements.
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Post by: Razerous
Zimko wrote:Razerous wrote:1 Trygon and 3 Mawlocs.
Yes and please.
Now we have cheap dakkafexes and dakka flyrants, even better
(Question: Can my Flyrants get 12 shots and have MRC? Or is it only 6 shots and MRC?)
With devourers you can get 12 shots and have a pair of MRC.
Right so the Dakkafex are taking two sets of Devs to get the 24 shots (or can the Tyrant go full shooting and get 24 shots too?)
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Post by: SideshowLucifer
I'm trying to work out the best setup for two carnies to run with old one eye. Not sure if one should be dakka and t be other cc or both dakka or both cc, or both multipurpose.
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Post by: v0iddrgn
Dynas wrote: luke1705 wrote:
In fact, I wonder if a double brigade list could work? Hmmm....21 CP sounds DELICIOUS!
I was able to get a 3 battalions and a spearhead, 1 battalion is Kronos, everything else is behemoth. 13 CP. Plus if i get my Genestealers (2x units of 16) or broodlord to kill a character you can use the feeder tendrils stratagem for a chance to net 2 more CP.
With the Kronus, I spread those guys out and basically shut down Pysker phase, spam pyskic scream until they lose all their good spells. And I spammed Termigants to get the rerolls on 1's
The behemoth has genestealers, hormies, 3x trygon, a nasty Flyrant, all DS in. All melee, all reroll charges.
Ripper fill cheap troop slots. BL to buff genestealers, 2 Malanthropes for bubbles.
I highly doubt we can just pay the CP points only to bring the extra units without having to pay the points, pretty sure it will make us hold as reinforcements.
You can't spam Psychic Scream in one phase. You'll have to pray you roll well enough to have your opponents psykers lose one spell a turn.
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Post by: Marmatag
 SideshowLucifer wrote:I'm trying to work out the best setup for two carnies to run with old one eye. Not sure if one should be dakka and t be other cc or both dakka or both cc, or both multipurpose.
I would always think about what you want your unit to be able to do, and then go all-in on that.
Half and half is like creating a generalist unit. If that worked, TAC marines would be OP.
Go all in on whatever you decide to do.
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Post by: pismakron
Marmatag wrote: SideshowLucifer wrote:I'm trying to work out the best setup for two carnies to run with old one eye. Not sure if one should be dakka and t be other cc or both dakka or both cc, or both multipurpose.
I would always think about what you want your unit to be able to do, and then go all-in on that.
Half and half is like creating a generalist unit. If that worked, TAC marines would be OP.
Go all in on whatever you decide to do.
Tac-marines really aren't generalist units though, as they are pretty weak in cc. I personally fell that a middle of the road army can be very strong. If you try to out-shoot a gunline or out-assault a melee army you will loose, of course. But if you assault their shooty bits and shoot their choppy bits, then you can do well.
This is especially so when two assault armies meet each other. The melee army with the most shooting can often force the other army to move forward and eat the charge.
And when playing with objectives that can be captured every turn, then a bit of melee will help shooty armies hold ground in the center of the board.
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Post by: Timeshadow
I plan to try a full brood of fex's 2 claws and one dakka with old one eye backing them up. With that coming down the middle the rest of the army should have free reign. Had them all forever just never played more than one.
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Post by: pinecone77
luke1705 wrote:My issue with the Trygon is that if we can do what it does (bring a unit of infantry in) for CP instead of points, then it's kind of like the double space marine formation of old - getting abilities for CP, so if I take a stratagem that I use 3 times that does the same thing as 3 Trygons or 3 pods, then most of their utility is absorbed and I effectively have 2,300 or 2,600 points in my 2,000 point army list.
This is exaggerated of course, as I am aware that you can do a lot of beautiful things with both of those units once they hit the table, but I do firmly believe that a 12-15 CP Tyranid list is the best kind of Tyranid list. We just have so many amazing stratagems.
I'm actually disappointed because I think I might need to do a triple battalion list, but we have such cheap options for brigades. It's basically 300 points + compulsory HQ and 3 troops to fill out the necessary slots, meaning that I can and will turn at least 1 battalion into a brigade for....486 points. That's a steal.
In fact, I wonder if a double brigade list could work? Hmmm....21 CP sounds DELICIOUS!
Edit: I tried...It's too much nothing and too little teeth haha. Might be able to pull a Brigade + Battalion....but likely I'm looking at a Brigade + 2 outriders or something (because mucolids) or a Brigade + 2 patrols (because rippers)
The "best" build I've found so far, is Brigade+ Supreme Command......Even that tends to spread things thin...
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Post by: luke1705
One Brigade is definitely a necessity imo. I did a Brigade and an outrider (because mucolids lol) to get 13.
But like 3 heavies, 3 elites and 3 fast attack is 296. That’s stupid, especially because all of those units have great functionality. And 6 of them allow other units to be deployed in reserves.
I still think that a Tyranid army that doesn’t utilize half of the army as reserve units is doing something very wrong
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Post by: Zimko
luke1705 wrote:One Brigade is definitely a necessity imo. I did a Brigade and an outrider (because mucolids lol) to get 13.
But like 3 heavies, 3 elites and 3 fast attack is 296. That’s stupid, especially because all of those units have great functionality. And 6 of them allow other units to be deployed in reserves.
I still think that a Tyranid army that doesn’t utilize half of the army as reserve units is doing something very wrong
I get 303 minimum (3 lictor, 3 mucolid and 3 biovores). 6 of which want to start in reserves though I suppose you can consider the mucolid a tax and just put them on the board to enable other reserve slots.
Were you thinking different units?
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Post by: SideshowLucifer
3 battalions is manageable and nets a good amount of CP.
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Post by: luke1705
No 303 is correct. I don’t know where my math came from. I guess I was more tired than I thought.
I was doing 3 Batallions but it’s weird. We have so many good HQ choices, and our psychic powers really reward level 2 casters (up until around 3 or so, at least), but every time I try and do a list with more than 4 HQ choices, I just feel like I’m lacking and that the HQ sections are too bloated.
I think maybe it’s just the cult of “everything is new and awesome”, but we really do have some amazing internal and external balance right now. Can’t wait to see how the Hive Fleet adapts as the meta evolves.
Now there’s only 1 thing left for me to do - decide on a paint scheme!!
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Post by: Jymmy
What fleet do you think that is best for a Heavy Detachment for OOE eith an escort of 3 Screamer Killer fexxes? I'm unsure about the survability of Jormungand or Leviathan (I would fit another synaptic HQ inside the detachment for this) vs the speed of kraken or behemoth.
Also, do you think that it would be a good idea to split a squad of 20 stealers into 2 of 10? My experience is that the charged squad is going to be overkilled anyway and then the genestealers will die by dhooting, this way you may make the rival spend more shots on them
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Post by: SideshowLucifer
I'm a fan of behemoth for the old one eye combo.
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Post by: Amishprn86
So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
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Post by: Razerous
Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
Screens and deep-strike denial is still a thing.
Flexibility is awesome, however.
Can't the stealers advance the turn they deepstrike as well?
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Post by: Eihnlazer
no they cant, as they come onto the table at the end of the move phase.
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Post by: Zimko
Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
Keep in mind that you can't reroll a reroll. So if you go Behemoth, you can either spend a command point to reroll 1 die or use the trait to reroll both.
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Post by: str00dles1
So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
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Post by: Dynas
Kraken could work well with the charges as well, especially if you have units with melee and guns. Or if you want to break off because the enemy locked your genestealers or screamer killers into combat.
Break off and recharge. Which means you get to attack first. If you take guns and melee blend, you can breakoff, shoot, then charge back in for a good wombo combo; especially if you kit them right. Maybe a Carnifex with tusk, spores, Syc Talons and HVC or Devourers.
Say your locked in combat with IG conscripts, you can break off, shoot your HVC at the tanks, then charge back into the Conscripts and attack first again, get the bonus for charging.
If opponent locks you in combat, just break off and go somewhere else, especially usefull if they throw chaff at your genestealers. WIth the advances dice bonus, doubling and rolling 3 take the highest, you can quickly reshift across map.
@Razerous, no they can't as Eihnlazer said, but you can take Swarmlord and get the move that way.
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Post by: zerosignal
str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
So now flyrants can DS... is the dakkaflyrant back?
Drop a couple of these in turn 1, delete things?
seems powerful
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Post by: Amishprn86
Zimko wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
Keep in mind that you can't reroll a reroll. So if you go Behemoth, you can either spend a command point to reroll 1 die or use the trait to reroll both.
I know, i meant it as if you rolled a 1 and a 6, use CP to re-roll the 1, if you rolled 2 bad number use the fleet to re-roll both.
Razerous wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
Screens and deep-strike denial is still a thing.
Flexibility is awesome, however.
Can't the stealers advance the turn they deepstrike as well?
I dont care about Screens, Genestealers will eat everything!, Also have 2 Dakkaflyrants dropping as well they do wonders to screens
zerosignal wrote:str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
So now flyrants can DS... is the dakkaflyrant back?
Drop a couple of these in turn 1, delete things?
seems powerful
Yes Dakka Flyrants are back, With malanthropes and Neurothropes as Back synapse, and cheap (70/90 pts) expect to see 3-4 Flyrants now
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Post by: Dynas
I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
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Post by: Zimko
Fhe large versions of Deathspitters and devourers have the same points cost nkw (7 each).
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Post by: Marmatag
I'm not sure why you'd bring a brigade. I am not a fan of the idea of taking units you wouldn't play for the 3cp... double battalion seems way better.
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Post by: shadowfinder
Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Think about Kronos Biovores. Their spore mines that miss Count as a Kronos unit. You don.t need rippers to cause shut down. Just make the Biovores miss in the area you want.
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Post by: Dynas
shadowfinder wrote: Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Think about Kronos Biovores. Their spore mines that miss Count as a Kronos unit. You don.t need rippers to cause shut down. Just make the Biovores miss in the area you want.
Yeah this is true, but what if you don't miss. Or what if the mines all blow up. Granted you can move them, and stay out of synapse and force IB to get the -2, but still.
Question, since the Broodlord has the genestealer key word is he able to take advantage of the Genestealer Ingestations Nodes? I would think yes. Thoughts?
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Post by: Zimko
Dynas wrote:shadowfinder wrote: Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Think about Kronos Biovores. Their spore mines that miss Count as a Kronos unit. You don.t need rippers to cause shut down. Just make the Biovores miss in the area you want.
Yeah this is true, but what if you don't miss. Or what if the mines all blow up. Granted you can move them, and stay out of synapse and force IB to get the -2, but still.
Question, since the Broodlord has the genestealer key word is he able to take advantage of the Genestealer Ingestations Nodes? I would think yes. Thoughts?
They cant possibly blow up before the enemy gets to his psychic phase. But the chance of hitting when you want to miss is there.
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Post by: Marmatag
Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Or just run Tyrant Neuro Neuro as a supreme command. And it's only a -1 AP... ignoring invlun is rarely going to come up because things will be taking regular saves. I can't think of that many units where it will come up, other than daemons.
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Post by: Zimko
Marmatag wrote: Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Or just run Tyrant Neuro Neuro as a supreme command. And it's only a -1 AP... ignoring invlun is rarely going to come up because things will be taking regular saves. I can't think of that many units where it will come up, other than daemons.
Eldar psykers. Neuro and Zoanthropes. Genestealers. Harlequins.
Most of this is pretty situational but if you're taking an anti psyker detachment then it is a good weapon for that purpose.
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Post by: buddha
Marmatag wrote: Dynas wrote:I plan to run a battalion of Kronos with Flyrant and Neurothrope and 3x rippers to get the Pyskic phase shutdown. Give the flyrant the Balethron cannon to ignore invults.
Hive Tyrant with Balethorn Cannon, 2x Deathspitters w/ Slimer Maggots , Pyskic Scream, Catalyst; 153 pts
Give him wing and he is 180
Or just run Tyrant Neuro Neuro as a supreme command. And it's only a -1 AP... ignoring invlun is rarely going to come up because things will be taking regular saves. I can't think of that many units where it will come up, other than daemons.
It's a near "I WIN" button versus harlequins at least. Reduced magnus' survivability greatly (just a 4+ with no re-roll). Demons obviously.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
That is a nice catch. geenstealer delivery just got cheaper. Correct me if I am wrong but can 2 units of geens share a lictor?
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Post by: Resipsa131
str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
It's almost the same if you don't round up or down on Dice Roll results. If you take Hydra and take the Deathspitter artifact the rerolls of failed wounds the deathspitters become much better.
I put together an excel spreadsheet (Assuming no Degradation)
Shooting Phase Shots Hits Strength AP Damage Toughness Wounds Saves Damage Saves Damage Saves Damage Saves
Hive Tyrant with Devourers 24 16.08 6 0 1 6 8.04 2 1.2864 3 2.6532 4 4.02 5 5.3868
Hive Tyrant with Deathspitters 12 8.04 7 -1 1 6 5.3868 2 1.777644 3 2.6934 4 3.609156 5 4.471044
Hive Tyrant with Devourers 24 16.08 6 0 1 5 10.7736 2 1.723776 3 3.55528 4 5.3868 5 7.218312
Hive Tyrant with Deathspitters 12 8.04 7 -1 1 5 5.3868 2 1.777644 3 2.6934 4 3.609156 5 4.471044
Hive Tyrant with Devourers 24 16.08 6 0 1 4 10.7736 2 1.723776 3 3.55528 4 5.3868 5 7.218312
Hive Tyrant with Deathspitters 12 8.04 7 -1 1 4 5.3868 2 1.777644 3 2.6934 4 3.6091 5 4.471044
Hive Tyrant with Devourers 24 16.08 6 0 1 3 13.3464 2 2.135424 3 4.40431 4 6.6732 5 8.942088
Hive Tyrant with Deathspitters 12 8.04 7 -1 1 3 6.6732 2 2.202156 3 3.3366 4 4.471 5 5.538756
Many people that do that math round up or down because your can't roll a fraction. But by my math it looks as if the devourers are better versus MEQ out of cover and deathspitters are slightly better vesus MEQ in cover but the devourers have more variance in results and lack the range of deathspitters.
Xenomancers wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
That is a nice catch. geenstealer delivery just got cheaper. Correct me if I am wrong but can 2 units of geens share a lictor?
You'd have to do it in two seperate rounds as the same strategem cant be used in the same phase.
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Post by: Dynas
Xenomancers wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
That is a nice catch. geenstealer delivery just got cheaper. Correct me if I am wrong but can 2 units of geens share a lictor?
Really wouldn't it be an 8 from Deepstrike b/c you only have to be within an inch, not base to base?
Broodlord uses the nodes, Genestealers ride in a trygon tunnel.
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Post by: Lance845
Dynas wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
That is a nice catch. geenstealer delivery just got cheaper. Correct me if I am wrong but can 2 units of geens share a lictor?
Really wouldn't it be an 8 from Deepstrike b/c you only have to be within an inch, not base to base?
Broodlord uses the nodes, Genestealers ride in a trygon tunnel.
You don't deep strike 9" away you deepstrike more than 9" away. 9.001 still requires a 9 to get within 1".
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Post by: Dynas
Lance845 wrote: Dynas wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:So... From the way i'm reading this, Genestealers infestation places them into Reserves, then on turn one DS a Lictor, pay the 1CP to DS the Genestealers out of reserves instead of using the Infestation Nodes, effectively getting them anyone on the table turn 1.
You can take Behemoth for Re-roll charges at the same time.
Your still looking for a 9 on 2D6, thats a little over average, but with Re-rolls and Command Dice a Large unit or 2 of Genestealers should be able to charge almost anything turn 1.
That is a nice catch. geenstealer delivery just got cheaper. Correct me if I am wrong but can 2 units of geens share a lictor?
Really wouldn't it be an 8 from Deepstrike b/c you only have to be within an inch, not base to base?
Broodlord uses the nodes, Genestealers ride in a trygon tunnel.
You don't deep strike 9" away you deepstrike more than 9" away. 9.001 still requires a 9 to get within 1".
Ah. Well thats what CP and charge rerolls are for.
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Post by: ballzonya
What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
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Post by: str00dles1
ballzonya wrote:What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
Either 4 Devourer with brainleach or 4 Deathspitter slimmer. Same points so its 198 with wings. Deepstrikes, shoots and then smites and casts a spell. Its useless in melee but enough of them and you can really hurt something turn 1
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Post by: Timeshadow
So I just had a thought..... Mawloc using it's ability ie coming up within 1" of 1 or more enemy units. Can it still bring in a unit with Jog Fleet strat?
So 1" + size of base length wise + distance allowed to be deployed. This I think equates to near 12" does it not?
This would allow deployment within the 3"-6" zone from the mawloc.
Yes it would need to be a small squad likely not much more than 10 models but warriors or hive guard are within reason and will cause the opp to possibly panic with so many threats nearby. (esp if they all get cover bonuses from fleet trait)
What does the hive mind think?
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Post by: Lance845
Timeshadow wrote:So I just had a thought..... Mawloc using it's ability ie coming up within 1" of 1 or more enemy units. Can it still bring in a unit with Jog Fleet strat?
So 1" + size of base length wise + distance allowed to be deployed. This I think equates to near 12" does it not?
This would allow deployment within the 3"-6" zone from the mawloc.
Yes it would need to be a small squad likely not much more than 10 models but warriors or hive guard are within reason and will cause the opp to possibly panic with so many threats nearby. (esp if they all get cover bonuses from fleet trait)
What does the hive mind think?
1) I don't think mawlocs make tunnels.
2) Jorm strat says the units must be 9" away from enemy units and wholly within 6" of the taxi.
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Post by: Timeshadow
Lance845 wrote:Timeshadow wrote:So I just had a thought..... Mawloc using it's ability ie coming up within 1" of 1 or more enemy units. Can it still bring in a unit with Jog Fleet strat?
So 1" + size of base length wise + distance allowed to be deployed. This I think equates to near 12" does it not?
This would allow deployment within the 3"-6" zone from the mawloc.
Yes it would need to be a small squad likely not much more than 10 models but warriors or hive guard are within reason and will cause the opp to possibly panic with so many threats nearby. (esp if they all get cover bonuses from fleet trait)
What does the hive mind think?
1) I don't think mawlocs make tunnels.
2) Jorm strat says the units must be 9" away from enemy units and wholly within 6" of the taxi.
Yes the Jorm strat mesuring from the just under 1" that the mawloc is away from any opp model plus the width of it's base long ways plus the 6" deployment gives them a total distance of about 12" of which 3" can be used to deploy into (cause it's 9" away from an enemy)
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Post by: luke1705
1) I’ve seen way too many 9” charges failed to make me want to have anything to do with that, even with the best of both worlds for re-rolls.
2) To fix this, pod in Swarmy. If you can shoot out the screening unit *COUGHdakkaflyrantsanddoubletappingdevilgantsCOUGH* then you can actually charge something that matters turn 1, which is glorious!
3) Broodlords coming out of infestation nodes (and therefore being able to deploy with either a lictor in any Hive Fleet or a ravener in Jormungdr) will need an FAQ before I personally play it that way. It’s the whole keyword debate all over again.
4) Shooty fexes are Jormungdr. Stabby fexes are Kraken. Both of those Hive Fleet bonuses are perfect for those units.
5) Mawlocs can make tunnels, but only for Jormungdr
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Post by: pinecone77
zerosignal wrote:str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
So now flyrants can DS... is the dakkaflyrant back?
Drop a couple of these in turn 1, delete things?
seems powerful
I think so, but I plan to use a "jack of all trades" loadout of Monster Rending, Gun. (Twin or cannon, likey one or two Relics as well)
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Post by: Lance845
I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
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Post by: Niiai
str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
How do they measure up vs gaunts ofor shooting?
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Post by: luke1705
Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
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Post by: Resipsa131
Niiai wrote:str00dles1 wrote:So dakkafex with 4 deathspitter slimmer is 12 shots for 95pts or 4 devourer is 24 shots for 83pts
Difference is STR is fairly meaningless as str 6/7 is almost the same, save for light vehicles. One wounds on 4s while one is 5s. Better range with the slimers and the -1 is pretty big. I guess vs other hordes youd want devourers but in most cases youll want to pay the 12 extra points for the -1 to armor save. Atleast I feel like that's the way to go. I don't have any math hammer for MEQ but..
How do they measure up vs gaunts ofor shooting?
5T and less (20Dev/10Flesh) Termagaunts beat both versions across the board on all saves and they can double phase for 2CP but Termagaunts can't deep strike for free, don't have psyker powers, etc.
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Post by: Niiai
luke1705 wrote: Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
What edition model came with rending claws? Forge world?
93221
Post by: Lance845
luke1705 wrote: Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
I understand that. It just seems real odd. Especially because its the only option available in a codex for a model that doesnt come with the option in the kit. Automatically Appended Next Post: Niiai wrote: luke1705 wrote: Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
What edition model came with rending claws? Forge world?
As far as i can tell, unless it came with the old metal ones, never.
Fw tyrants only ever had venom cannons scytal and now tldwblw
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Post by: Xenomancers
str00dles1 wrote:ballzonya wrote:What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
Either 4 Devourer with brainleach or 4 Deathspitter slimmer. Same points so its 198 with wings. Deepstrikes, shoots and then smites and casts a spell. Its useless in melee but enough of them and you can really hurt something turn 1
The math has been done earlier in the thread. The 24 shots is better vs everything but T7 or 2+ saves.
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Post by: tag8833
I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
Event Restrictions:
- 1650 points
- 1 Battalion only
- No repeated dataslates that aren't troops.
1) If you had to pick 1 hive fleet for a mixed force, which way would you go?
2) I'm limited to 3 HQ's. Malanthrope is obvious. Which other 2 should I pick? Broodlord and Flyrant maybe?
3) 2 shooty units for my backfield. Exocrine is obvious. But then I've get to basically pick 1 between Hive Guard, TFex w/ Rupture Cannon, or Zoenthropes. Maybe some Carnifexen Which one would you pick?
4) 30 Devilgants seem like a great choice for an alphastrike thanks to the shoot twice strategem. Is it worth it, or will I be overkilling stuff?
5) Feels like Genestealers are the best troops, I was leaning towards running 2 max squads with a broodlord. Should I give them Toxin?
6) I like having a fast tarpit unit. IE something that can tie up a shooty unit or two. Is a Flyrant going to generally do that trick, or should I take a Crone or Harpy?
116025
Post by: Dynas
The only monstrous rending claws are the Broodlords, which are way to small.
You would need to convert by using the legs on the flyrant as rending claws and maybe add some large side toes with scything talons from a warrior or something; or sculpt them.
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Post by: Niiai
Xenomancers wrote:str00dles1 wrote:ballzonya wrote:What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
Either 4 Devourer with brainleach or 4 Deathspitter slimmer. Same points so its 198 with wings. Deepstrikes, shoots and then smites and casts a spell. Its useless in melee but enough of them and you can really hurt something turn 1
The math has been done earlier in the thread. The 24 shots is better vs everything but T7 or 2+ saves.
Good thing we never have problems with T7 or this would be a hard choise. Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: Did any of the computer games or relics give rending claws? Does this mean chpaerhouse has them? ^_^
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Post by: Resipsa131
Sidebar-why did Harpies/Hive Crones get moved out of Fast Attack and into Flyers but get none of the bonuses traditional flyers get?
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Post by: Niiai
Resipsa131 wrote:Sidebar-why did Harpies/Hive Crones get moved out of Fast Attack and into Flyers but get none of the bonuses traditional flyers get?
So we have flyers.
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Post by: Tyran
Warriors used to come with monstrous rending claws (before monstrous rending claws were a thing).
Maybe they still have them.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Niiai wrote: Xenomancers wrote:str00dles1 wrote:ballzonya wrote:What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
Either 4 Devourer with brainleach or 4 Deathspitter slimmer. Same points so its 198 with wings. Deepstrikes, shoots and then smites and casts a spell. Its useless in melee but enough of them and you can really hurt something turn 1
The math has been done earlier in the thread. The 24 shots is better vs everything but T7 or 2+ saves.
Good thing we never have problems with T7 or this would be a hard choise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Did any of the computer games or relics give rending claws? Does this mean chpaerhouse has them? ^_^
Look at the wings of the tyrant. At the top middle of the wing you see 2 claws connected to the arm that the wing is attached to - essentially all winged tyrants have massive scything talons already. If you want to make it more pronounced though - it would be pretty easy.
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Post by: Razerous
str00dles1 wrote:ballzonya wrote:What's the loadout for a data flyrant? And does it all come in the box you buy? Sorry I'm new to this
Either 4 Devourer with brainleach or 4 Deathspitter slimmer. Same points so its 198 with wings. Deepstrikes, shoots and then smites and casts a spell. Its useless in melee but enough of them and you can really hurt something turn 1
So how many shots is that??
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Post by: Xenomancers
tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
Event Restrictions:
- 1650 points
- 1 Battalion only
- No repeated dataslates that aren't troops.
1) If you had to pick 1 hive fleet for a mixed force, which way would you go?
2) I'm limited to 3 HQ's. Malanthrope is obvious. Which other 2 should I pick? Broodlord and Flyrant maybe?
3) 2 shooty units for my backfield. Exocrine is obvious. But then I've get to basically pick 1 between Hive Guard, TFex w/ Rupture Cannon, or Zoenthropes. Maybe some Carnifexen Which one would you pick?
4) 30 Devilgants seem like a great choice for an alphastrike thanks to the shoot twice strategem. Is it worth it, or will I be overkilling stuff?
5) Feels like Genestealers are the best troops, I was leaning towards running 2 max squads with a broodlord. Should I give them Toxin?
6) I like having a fast tarpit unit. IE something that can tie up a shooty unit or two. Is a Flyrant going to generally do that trick, or should I take a Crone or Harpy?
Well you get 3 Carnifex for 1 data slate so i would take 3 of those hands down.
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Post by: Lance845
Xenomancers wrote:tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
Event Restrictions:
- 1650 points
- 1 Battalion only
- No repeated dataslates that aren't troops.
1) If you had to pick 1 hive fleet for a mixed force, which way would you go?
2) I'm limited to 3 HQ's. Malanthrope is obvious. Which other 2 should I pick? Broodlord and Flyrant maybe?
3) 2 shooty units for my backfield. Exocrine is obvious. But then I've get to basically pick 1 between Hive Guard, TFex w/ Rupture Cannon, or Zoenthropes. Maybe some Carnifexen Which one would you pick?
4) 30 Devilgants seem like a great choice for an alphastrike thanks to the shoot twice strategem. Is it worth it, or will I be overkilling stuff?
5) Feels like Genestealers are the best troops, I was leaning towards running 2 max squads with a broodlord. Should I give them Toxin?
6) I like having a fast tarpit unit. IE something that can tie up a shooty unit or two. Is a Flyrant going to generally do that trick, or should I take a Crone or Harpy?
Well you get 3 Carnifex for 1 data slate so i would take 3 of those hands down.
Go nuts. Bring 9. 1 slot 3 screamer killers. 1 slot 3 thornbacks. 1 slot 3 fex loaded out to taste. 1 hq ooe. Laugh.
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Post by: tag8833
Xenomancers wrote:tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
...
Well you get 3 Carnifex for 1 data slate so i would take 3 of those hands down.
That was definitely something I considered. Carnifexes instead of Genestealers or instead of Devilgants? 1650 isn't that many points.
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Post by: luke1705
tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
Event Restrictions:
- 1650 points
- 1 Battalion only
- No repeated dataslates that aren't troops.
1) If you had to pick 1 hive fleet for a mixed force, which way would you go?
2) I'm limited to 3 HQ's. Malanthrope is obvious. Which other 2 should I pick? Broodlord and Flyrant maybe?
3) 2 shooty units for my backfield. Exocrine is obvious. But then I've get to basically pick 1 between Hive Guard, TFex w/ Rupture Cannon, or Zoenthropes. Maybe some Carnifexen Which one would you pick?
4) 30 Devilgants seem like a great choice for an alphastrike thanks to the shoot twice strategem. Is it worth it, or will I be overkilling stuff?
5) Feels like Genestealers are the best troops, I was leaning towards running 2 max squads with a broodlord. Should I give them Toxin?
6) I like having a fast tarpit unit. IE something that can tie up a shooty unit or two. Is a Flyrant going to generally do that trick, or should I take a Crone or Harpy?
This is what I would bring to that event:
Neurothrope - 70
Malanthrope - 90
Dakka Flyrant - 198
Lictor - 45
20 Stealers - 240
30 Hormagants - 150
30 Devilgants - 240
5 Raveners - 115
Exocrine - 210
6 Hive Guard - 288
You can use the Raveners to bring in both the hormagants and the Devilgants. I had points for Swarmy but since you said you wanted to go shooty, I dropped him. If I really wanted to take some names, I’d drop both the exocrine and the Hive Guard. Kill the screen with the Flyrant and the Devilgants and then Swarmy move in the hormagants to tie up the entire army. You’ll know by then if they are onslaughted or not. With their pile and consolidate, you’ll be able to reliably make it so that the enemy cannot fall back.
Tbh, you probably could make a mono Kronos army. Or a mono Kraken army. I probably wouldn’t consider any other mono builds. Here Jormungdr is important because that’s the only way to start the paper thin Devilgants in reserve, and if they’re not in reserve, they’re not worth taking.
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Post by: tag8833
Lance845 wrote:Go nuts. Bring 9. 1 slot 3 screamer killers. 1 slot 3 thornbacks. 1 slot 3 fex loaded out to taste. 1 hq ooe. Laugh.
I only have 7, but that is something that might be fun, it's worth considering.
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Post by: luke1705
Fex Wall would be pretty funny at 1650 lol. I mean, they’d all be the -1 to hit dakka variety. Toss in a couple Broodlords for psychic and counter assault and you’re pretty much set.
Jormungdr:
3 Broodlords
4 Ripper squads
9 dakka fexen with -1 to hit
That’s 1653 if my math is right, giving all carnifex enhanced senses and -1 to hit. I’m not mad at it.
Edit: if you could borrow some from people you know, it would not be awful. Not at all. Only thing they can target is fexes. You have deep striking obsec. The fact that this is even viable is glorious
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Post by: Dynas
luke1705 wrote:tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
This is what I would bring to that event:
Neurothrope - 70
Malanthrope - 90
Dakka Flyrant - 198
Lictor - 45
20 Stealers - 240
30 Hormagants - 150
30 Devilgants - 240
5 Raveners - 115
Exocrine - 210
6 Hive Guard - 288
This is close to what I would bring. I would drop the Raveners and the hiveguard. Make 10 of the devil gants fleshborers for easy wounds. Take all those points and buy
Carnifexes (melee) if so go behemoth or kraken
Dakkafexes (kronos)
or, warriors with Deathspitters, Rendingclaws &/or boneswords. Get more synpase shadow in the warp and take Leviathan for an army wide FnP. Remember thats on wounds, including mortal, and not the damage. So all those D3 mortal wounds, you get 3 FNP saves.
It really depends on your play style and what models you have.
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Post by: From
The ease with which you can get a Brigade is absurd.
Start with
3 Neurothropes
3 lictors
6 min squads of rippers
3 mucolid spores
3 biovores
This totals 711 points and gives you a boat load of cp for all of the great stratagems.
Just swap out units from this base as needed, keep in mind the amount of points you have left for mixing in other hive fleets into the army.
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Post by: luke1705
Dynas wrote: luke1705 wrote:tag8833 wrote:I've got an interested event coming up, and am trying to figure out a Codex Tyranids list that will work for it, but I've got a few questions.
This is what I would bring to that event:
Neurothrope - 70
Malanthrope - 90
Dakka Flyrant - 198
Lictor - 45
20 Stealers - 240
30 Hormagants - 150
30 Devilgants - 240
5 Raveners - 115
Exocrine - 210
6 Hive Guard - 288
This is close to what I would bring. I would drop the Raveners and the hiveguard. Make 10 of the devil gants fleshborers for easy wounds. Take all those points and buy
Carnifexes (melee) if so go behemoth or kraken
Dakkafexes (kronos)
or, warriors with Deathspitters, Rendingclaws &/or boneswords. Get more synpase shadow in the warp and take Leviathan for an army wide FnP. Remember thats on wounds, including mortal, and not the damage. So all those D3 mortal wounds, you get 3 FNP saves.
It really depends on your play style and what models you have.
Kronos Dakkafex seem nice, but in reality your opponent will usually try to either threaten to charge them or run away to get out of their range and deny them the bonus. 18" range isn't awful, but it isn't a long enough range that I would feel comfortable thinking that I would get a lot of use out of the hive fleet adaptation. I'd rather use the cover bonus. Melee is Kraken with certainty. Those extra inches are amazing, especially because 1 of them can double their advance. Way better than 2.5 more inches on the charge on average. Also, falling back and charging cannot be understated in terms of power for a unit like a carnifex. They try to tarpit you and you're just like "nah bro"
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Post by: Tyran
Also charging does wonders for a melee fex damage output with both the Living Battering Ram ability and the Tusk biomorph (which any melee fex should have), so you almost always wants to disengage for recharging with Kraken melee fexes.
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Post by: Niiai
What sort of carnifexes are turning out good? The thornback only ignores cover with infantery units. And he cannot take the -1 to hit. (He can take BS3- though.) But I doubt he is much better then warriors with a barbed strangler? A barbed strangler is S5, and S5 is often enough, a strangelthorn cannon at S7 seems overkill vs T3, and has no effect vs T4.
Regular carnifexes probably are better with a heavy venom cannon, then warriors with venom cannons. S9 and D3 being good tipping points. (I have previusly been comparing warrior venom cannon with impaler cannon if you have around 18 warriors in your army with a prime leading them.)
The screamer killer does not seems to have a good role? Distraction carnifex? Old one eye support?
The dakka carnifex with 24 shots seems descent. But I think he comes out worse vs devil gaunts for the same points?
Devourer carnifexes seems like being in a bad place. S7 is not as impressive as warrior or ravener S5.
Can somebody who is better at mathammer or strategical latheral thinking call out my bad logic or confirm it? I am painting up 4 carnifexes I have had from 5th edition proxies.
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Post by: Tyran
Niiai wrote:
The screamer killer does not seems to have a good role? Distraction carnifex? Old one eye support?
The dakka carnifex with 24 shots seems descent. But I think he comes out worse vs devil gaunts for the same points?
They are basically the same output. The only real advantage of the devilgaunts is the double fire stratagem (which is a massive advantage if you want some serious alpha strike).
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Post by: luke1705
Yes the dakkafex inflicts less wounds per the points than a squad of devourer gants, but he also lives past the first turn you shoot with him. My biggest issue with him is that he may not be shooting on turn 1 at all. Not the end of the world, but I like consistency. Which is why my devilgants are, without exception, jormungdr so that they can deep strike with a friendly unit of Raveners.
Screamer killer is more fluffy than competitive, but he's pretty good vs elite infantry. I just don't see him as having a role once the stone crushers get updated. And even now, I would take them over any melee fex.
I prefer having the -1 to hit because it doesn't link us to a Malanthrope, and the -1 to hit is absolutely necessary.
TLDR: I would probably magnetize the carnifexes for fun games to have the screamer killer loadout (and by probably, I mean I am doing that), but competitively it's 24 devourer shots or bust for me. The prevalence of t3 screening units means that str 6 is a big deal. Jormungdr all the way.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Lance845 wrote: luke1705 wrote: Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
I understand that. It just seems real odd. Especially because its the only option available in a codex for a model that doesnt come with the option in the kit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: luke1705 wrote: Lance845 wrote:I would be really shocked if MRC stay 0 points for long. I wonder if it's a copy paste error from the index and it gets errataed. It seems like madness to pay like... 15 points for scytal or 0 for rending claws.
Gonna have to get over that. It’s survived multiple FAQs and now the codex print, let alone the initial printing.
What edition model came with rending claws? Forge world?
As far as i can tell, unless it came with the old metal ones, never.
Fw tyrants only ever had venom cannons scytal and now tldwblw
It use to come on the Tyranid Monsterous Creature Sprues and was sold with the metal Hive Tyrants, metal Carnifex, and old plastic Tyranid Warrior Kit.
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Post by: buddha
Niiai wrote:What sort of carnifexes are turning out good? The thornback only ignores cover with infantery units. And he cannot take the -1 to hit. (He can take BS3- though.) But I doubt he is much better then warriors with a barbed strangler? A barbed strangler is S5, and S5 is often enough, a strangelthorn cannon at S7 seems overkill vs T3, and has no effect vs T4.
Regular carnifexes probably are better with a heavy venom cannon, then warriors with venom cannons. S9 and D3 being good tipping points. (I have previusly been comparing warrior venom cannon with impaler cannon if you have around 18 warriors in your army with a prime leading them.)
The screamer killer does not seems to have a good role? Distraction carnifex? Old one eye support?
The dakka carnifex with 24 shots seems descent. But I think he comes out worse vs devil gaunts for the same points?
Devourer carnifexes seems like being in a bad place. S7 is not as impressive as warrior or ravener S5.
Can somebody who is better at mathammer or strategical latheral thinking call out my bad logic or confirm it? I am painting up 4 carnifexes I have had from 5th edition proxies.
With only str.6 carnifexes are poor tank/monster busters in CC which is sad as it means any variations (thornback, screaming killer, regular) are fankly pedantic. Their only competitive use is the dakka fex with enhanced senses and spore scyts.
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Post by: Tyran
That's why you take crushing claws if you want melee AT.
Or even better, stone crushers.
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Post by: Niiai
So the deathspitter dakkafex is good then? I think the heavy venom cannon looks good,
What about hybrid carnifexes? Can they do anything? Perhpas have the plasma head instead of the BS3+ head.
And how powerfull is the abilaty to ignore cover on enemy infatery that the thornback has? I have not played so much 8th edition, but from what I have seen (and read) many local gming clubs have not updated their terain to 8th edition. Cover saves are rare.
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Post by: tag8833
So Maleceptor, Toxicrine, and Haurospex were pretty iffy out of the Index. Do we know if the codex fixed them?
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Post by: Razerous
Need to see the codex in context.
I'm still thinking a Mawloc is going to be a good 'distraction Mawloc'.
It dealing wounds to 2+ squads yields 'decent' amount of wounds for it's cost.
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Post by: buddha
Tyran wrote:That's why you take crushing claws if you want melee AT.
Or even better, stone crushers.
Stone crushers sure but crushing claws are laughable with the -1 to hit. You would need OOE increasing the point cost even further to try to force an effective CC fex.
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Post by: Niiai
buddha wrote:Tyran wrote:That's why you take crushing claws if you want melee AT.
Or even better, stone crushers.
Stone crushers sure but crushing claws are laughable with the -1 to hit. You would need OOE increasing the point cost even further to try to force an effective CC fex.
On paper tyrant guards and hive tyrant/flyrant seems like crushing claw wielders.
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Post by: Tyran
tag8833 wrote:So Maleceptor, Toxicrine, and Haurospex were pretty iffy out of the Index. Do we know if the codex fixed them?
The Maleceptor gained an additional power, a 4++ and a slight buff to psychic overload. Toxicrene gained WS3+ and ap-2 on its toxic lashes. Haruspex gained a massive point reduction. They are better, but I'm not sure they are fixed.
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Post by: From
tag8833 wrote:So Maleceptor, Toxicrine, and Haurospex were pretty iffy out of the Index. Do we know if the codex fixed them?
The Haurospex appears to be just under 200 points. Not sure the Maleceptor or Toxicrine are worth it
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Post by: Tyran
buddha wrote:Tyran wrote:That's why you take crushing claws if you want melee AT.
Or even better, stone crushers.
Stone crushers sure but crushing claws are laughable with the -1 to hit. You would need OOE increasing the point cost even further to try to force an effective CC fex.
Crushing claws are cheap (the cheapest weapons in a carnifex). Also their damage is greatly increased by Living Battering Ram (and/or OOE). If you are running a hybrid fex, crushing claws + gun is probably the best hybrid loadout, specially if you are using them as OOE's bodyguards.
I mean, with both LBR and OOE you are duplicating the damage output of crushing claws.
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Post by: Tyr13
Niiai wrote:So the deathspitter dakkafex is good then? I think the heavy venom cannon looks good,
What about hybrid carnifexes? Can they do anything? Perhpas have the plasma head instead of the BS3+ head.
And how powerfull is the abilaty to ignore cover on enemy infatery that the thornback has? I have not played so much 8th edition, but from what I have seen (and read) many local gming clubs have not updated their terain to 8th edition. Cover saves are rare.
Deathspitter carnifex - do you meann all deathspitters, or as additional guns with a HVC?
Hybrid... as in melee/ranged hybrid? Cause I dont see how plasma would help there... I could see acid maw being useful though. You trade increased BS for some serious AP, should make a carnifex a decent jack-of-all-trades...
Ignoring cover... not really sure. Ironically, itd be seriously good against other tyranids (Jormungandr specifically), though in other cases, it seems like it would only have niche uses... doesnt help that the thornback doesnt seem to be able to decide wether he wants to be melee or ranged. Could make it an option of the aformentioned hybrid fex though?
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Post by: Sim-Life
From wrote:tag8833 wrote:So Maleceptor, Toxicrine, and Haurospex were pretty iffy out of the Index. Do we know if the codex fixed them?
The Haurospex appears to be just under 200 points. Not sure the Maleceptor or Toxicrine are worth it
I liked the Haruspex before the point drop. I can't see the value in the maleceptor or toxicrene at all however.
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Post by: Xenomancers
 Sim-Life wrote:From wrote:tag8833 wrote:So Maleceptor, Toxicrine, and Haurospex were pretty iffy out of the Index. Do we know if the codex fixed them?
The Haurospex appears to be just under 200 points. Not sure the Maleceptor or Toxicrine are worth it
I liked the Haruspex before the point drop. I can't see the value in the maleceptor or toxicrene at all however.
He looks like a fun unit. I have an unbuilt 1 that I am probably going to make exocrine number 2. However I would love for this guy some love - because I'd love to use him and have him terrorizing infantry and just refusing to die. LOL.
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Post by: Tyr13
The Maleceptor looks like it could be a fun unit to spam MW. 2d3 on a 4+ to cast, plus CC capability... not too shabby. Not really competitive, but could be a fun unit to use on occasion.
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Post by: Lance845
The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
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Post by: p00rstudent
Carnifex upgrade questions
Am i right in thinking certain upgrades are mutually exclusive.
So head bio morph choose only 1 from +1bs, screamer killer head, tusks,
carapace bio morph choose one from, -1 to hit from shooting, thorn back, upgraded battering ram for stone crusher
4 weapon slots, choose any combination of weapons up to a max of for, cannons taking up 2 slots.
tail, thresher or bone mace
then there are adrenal glands and toxin sacs (which any one can take i think)
what abut bio plasma, does that count as a head bio morph or does it work the same as adrenal glands and toxin sacs
So could i build for example, a carnifex with
+1 bs
bioplasma
-1 to hit from shooting
4 twin linked devourers
thresher tail
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Post by: combatcotton
No since bio plasma is one of the head options. You have to decide between plasma and BS. The rest works.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Lance845 wrote:The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
You can get 14 Genestealers for the same cost. T4 vs T7, but 5++ and single would so immune to multi-damage. No degradation of statline. Alternate deployment methods. WAY higher damage output against all targets.
The only unique strength the Toxicrene has is shooting into combats, which would be nice to abuse with a ton of hormagaunts to lock people down. Besides that it's just a pretty middle of the road MC. Totally usable in normal games, but no real place in competitive 40k.
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Post by: Spoletta
Toxicrene suffers from a really punishing degradation table, if not he would be strong. Automatically Appended Next Post: Traceoftoxin wrote: Lance845 wrote:The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
You can get 14 Genestealers for the same cost. T4 vs T7, but 5++ and single would so immune to multi-damage. No degradation of statline. Alternate deployment methods. WAY higher damage output against all targets.
The only unique strength the Toxicrene has is shooting into combats, which would be nice to abuse with a ton of hormagaunts to lock people down. Besides that it's just a pretty middle of the road MC. Totally usable in normal games, but no real place in competitive 40k.
Single wounded infantry degrades by definition with wounds.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Spoletta wrote:Toxicrene suffers from a really punishing degradation table, if not he would be strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traceoftoxin wrote: Lance845 wrote:The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
You can get 14 Genestealers for the same cost. T4 vs T7, but 5++ and single would so immune to multi-damage. No degradation of statline. Alternate deployment methods. WAY higher damage output against all targets.
The only unique strength the Toxicrene has is shooting into combats, which would be nice to abuse with a ton of hormagaunts to lock people down. Besides that it's just a pretty middle of the road MC. Totally usable in normal games, but no real place in competitive 40k.
Single wounded infantry degrades by definition with wounds.
Yes, they lose attacks. They do not lose WS or S. Rough numbers in my head, even at half strength the Genestealer unit does more damage to any platform than the Toxi does at full.
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Post by: Spoletta
Traceoftoxin wrote:Spoletta wrote:Toxicrene suffers from a really punishing degradation table, if not he would be strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traceoftoxin wrote: Lance845 wrote:The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
You can get 14 Genestealers for the same cost. T4 vs T7, but 5++ and single would so immune to multi-damage. No degradation of statline. Alternate deployment methods. WAY higher damage output against all targets.
The only unique strength the Toxicrene has is shooting into combats, which would be nice to abuse with a ton of hormagaunts to lock people down. Besides that it's just a pretty middle of the road MC. Totally usable in normal games, but no real place in competitive 40k.
Single wounded infantry degrades by definition with wounds.
Yes, they lose attacks. They do not lose WS or S. Rough numbers in my head, even at half strength the Genestealer unit does more damage to any platform than the Toxi does at full.
Hmm, it probably wins against targets like aggressors, but this is just a mathematical discussion, genestealers are obviously better in the damage department.
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Post by: Cephalobeard
When/where is anyone fielding aggressors?
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Post by: Lance845
I agree the toxicrenes degradation table is balls. But being str 7 ap -2 d3 dmg with a good number of attacks + shooting with the melee weapon + toxic miasma.
I am not saying it's the most competitive thing out there. Simply that it's got some gak going for it as a character hunter which benefits that one stratagem.
I don't own one and don't intend to. But of the toxicrene, hauraspex, and maleceptor, I would probably build a toxicrene to run for funsies over the other 2,
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Post by: Spoletta
Looking at the way the meta is going i think that in 3 or 4 months we will see a lot of them. Especially if the rumored cost nerf to assault cannons and hurricane bolters is true.
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Post by: Xenomancers
They are actually a really good unit that is bad against the meta. Againt nid - they will be an abolsute horror if the meta shifts.
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Post by: tag8833
Are Toxin Sacs usually worth it on Genestealers?
What are a few good ways to kill Magnus as a Nid player?
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Post by: pinecone77
p00rstudent wrote:Carnifex upgrade questions
Am i right in thinking certain upgrades are mutually exclusive.
So head bio morph choose only 1 from +1bs, screamer killer head, tusks,
carapace bio morph choose one from, -1 to hit from shooting, thorn back, upgraded battering ram for stone crusher
4 weapon slots, choose any combination of weapons up to a max of for, cannons taking up 2 slots.
tail, thresher or bone mace
then there are adrenal glands and toxin sacs (which any one can take i think)
what abut bio plasma, does that count as a head bio morph or does it work the same as adrenal glands and toxin sacs
So could i build for example, a carnifex with
+1 bs
bioplasma
-1 to hit from shooting
4 twin linked devourers
thresher tail
That looks correct to me...no Codex in hand, but looks "OK" Unless Bioplasma, and +1 BS are both "heads" But prior sets let you toss Bioplasma on any. So "it depends"
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Post by: Xenomancers
tag8833 wrote:Are Toxin Sacs usually worth it on Genestealers?
What are a few good ways to kill Magnus as a Nid player?
Toxin sacs aren't worth it on a genestealer - to easy to kill.
Best way to kill magnus is a combined approach - ether completely ignore him and kill everything else or hit him with everything.
Vs magnus quantity is better than quality. Mass str 4 is our best way to bring him down. That's dakka gaunts shooting Twice. If you could assault him turn 1 with the swarmlord first turn of the game though - I would go for it every time.
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Post by: pinecone77
tag8833 wrote:Are Toxin Sacs usually worth it on Genestealers?
What are a few good ways to kill Magnus as a Nid player?
Be Kronos. Shoot him with a Balethorn Cannon, and lots o'dice ( tm). Currently I plan on a Kronos Supreme command of three Winged Tyrants, that plus the "Darken shadow" strat should give an even chance.
Is anyone sure how to "handle" 1000 sons marines? They seem like a hard target as well. 
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Post by: luke1705
Thousand sons are easy. Way too few bodies. We have more bodies than they can fire bullets. And we have enough mortal wounds that they are going to be very sad
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Post by: Xenomancers
pinecone77 wrote:tag8833 wrote:Are Toxin Sacs usually worth it on Genestealers?
What are a few good ways to kill Magnus as a Nid player?
Be Kronos. Shoot him with a Balethorn Cannon, and lots o'dice ( tm). Currently I plan on a Kronos Supreme command of three Winged Tyrants, that plus the "Darken shadow" strat should give an even chance.
Is anyone sure how to "handle" 1000 sons marines? They seem like a hard target as well.
Gotta hit the 1000 sons in close quarters - to hard to dig out of cover.
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Post by: Dynas
I had some spare time, and with the reliance of melee for our army. I made some handy Mathhammer charge tables. Including Rerolls, command points, adrenal glands, etc...
Hive Mind, go Devourer...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/744263.page#9691928
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Post by: Endgame422
Kronos warlord with a nice screen of gants should make short work of sorcerers/rubrics and deepest shadows strategem will give Magnus/Ahriman a real hard time.
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Post by: Niiai
Hi.
Saw over the carnifexes. Is tge screamer killer a bit exspensive? It starts out 90. Now that includes the plasmic scream, range 18, ap 4, yay. But not the scything tallons. So that is a total of 105. 115 with the -1 to hi sporecystt. And 120 for all that and edrenal glands. Is that a bit exspendive?
Regular carnifex with , 4x tresher scythe, Spore cysts, and adrenal glands clock in at 97 points. That is a whopping 23 points cheaper.
If you want to be attacking I think a bone mace at 2 points for S8 is good. It is an extra attack.
But maybi the Monstruc acid maw is good. Only S user, but it has AP -5 and D3 damage. 10 points. Although this might be better vs 2+ troops then T7 S3+. Scything tallons have a flat 3 damage, as opposed to the acid maws averadge 2.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Spoletta wrote: Traceoftoxin wrote:Spoletta wrote:Toxicrene suffers from a really punishing degradation table, if not he would be strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traceoftoxin wrote: Lance845 wrote:The best thing about the toxicrene to me is to use it as a character hunter and regain lost CP. He's more durable then the lictors or genestealers and more capable then the venomthrope.
You can get 14 Genestealers for the same cost. T4 vs T7, but 5++ and single would so immune to multi-damage. No degradation of statline. Alternate deployment methods. WAY higher damage output against all targets.
The only unique strength the Toxicrene has is shooting into combats, which would be nice to abuse with a ton of hormagaunts to lock people down. Besides that it's just a pretty middle of the road MC. Totally usable in normal games, but no real place in competitive 40k.
Single wounded infantry degrades by definition with wounds.
Yes, they lose attacks. They do not lose WS or S. Rough numbers in my head, even at half strength the Genestealer unit does more damage to any platform than the Toxi does at full.
Hmm, it probably wins against targets like aggressors, but this is just a mathematical discussion, genestealers are obviously better in the damage department.
Toxicrenes average 3.36 damage against T5 3+, Genestealers average .5 per stealer without considering the A4 buff. So, 7 stealers do more damage than a toxicrene. (Edit, forgot rerolls for toxi to wound)
Stealers absolutely put every other unit in our codex to shame, when it comes to damage output. The few units that are better against niche targets are generally only slightly better, while the GS are great against everything. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good numbers for people to know and understand. Thanks.
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Post by: pinecone77
Niiai wrote:Hi.
Saw over the carnifexes. Is tge screamer killer a bit exspensive? It starts out 90. Now that includes the plasmic scream, range 18, ap 4, yay. But not the scything tallons. So that is a total of 105. 115 with the -1 to hi sporecystt. And 120 for all that and edrenal glands. Is that a bit exspendive?
Regular carnifex with , 4x tresher scythe, Spore cysts, and adrenal glands clock in at 97 points. That is a whopping 23 points cheaper.
If you want to be attacking I think a bone mace at 2 points for S8 is good. It is an extra attack.
But maybi the Monstruc acid maw is good. Only S user, but it has AP -5 and D3 damage. 10 points. Although this might be better vs 2+ troops then T7 S3+. Scything tallons have a flat 3 damage, as opposed to the acid maws averadge 2.
I thought the new write ups included the base equipment...? I've been thinking 90+10 for spore cloud, Adrenals depending, if I run Behemoth, likely won't need them....
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Post by: Fan67
Isn't it funny how Enhanced edition of the codex lacks appendix with models' point cost? Automatically Appended Next Post: I love the wording of the pheramone trail stratagem as it is works for genecult and newborn tervigon's termagaunts.
Good thing i have several lictors from 7ed.
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Post by: Spoletta
Finally got my hand on a codex!
Did anyone notice that the Sporocyst now releases mines every turn in addition to the spore launcher?
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Post by: Fan67
Spore heavy army definetly got a buff.
I am heavily considering it.
What is weapon profile for spore node? Enhanced edition only lists special rule.
Why they made Sporocyst to have degradable A?
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Post by: Strat_N8
Spoletta wrote:
Did anyone notice that the Sporocyst now releases mines every turn in addition to the spore launcher?
Not until you mentioned it, very nice! Taking a fortification network of Kronos Sporocysts might be interesting since they can flood the board with mines each turn while automatically benefiting from its fleet adaptation and providing the Deepest Shadow stratagem for use in the army.
Fan67 wrote:What is weapon profile for spore node? Enhanced edition only lists special rule.
Heavy 1, 9'' range. The special rule handles all of the damage and how many "hits" are caused.
Fan67 wrote:
Why they made Sporocyst to have degradable A?
It's just a copy-paste from its mobile cousin (makes sense since they are technically the same base organism with differing payloads).
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Post by: changemod
Yeah I'm thinking tusks, access to tail biomorphs and a cheaper cost mean it makes little sense to make a dual scythe Carnifex a screamer killer for any reason other than the fluff of it, wanting a plasma spitter because it's a classic loadout.
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Post by: Timeshadow
How much does the sporocyte cost now.... With the new rules for the venom cannon it could be deadly.
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Post by: luke1705
pinecone77 wrote: Niiai wrote:Hi.
Saw over the carnifexes. Is tge screamer killer a bit exspensive? It starts out 90. Now that includes the plasmic scream, range 18, ap 4, yay. But not the scything tallons. So that is a total of 105. 115 with the -1 to hi sporecystt. And 120 for all that and edrenal glands. Is that a bit exspendive?
Regular carnifex with , 4x tresher scythe, Spore cysts, and adrenal glands clock in at 97 points. That is a whopping 23 points cheaper.
If you want to be attacking I think a bone mace at 2 points for S8 is good. It is an extra attack.
But maybi the Monstruc acid maw is good. Only S user, but it has AP -5 and D3 damage. 10 points. Although this might be better vs 2+ troops then T7 S3+. Scything tallons have a flat 3 damage, as opposed to the acid maws averadge 2.
I thought the new write ups included the base equipment...? I've been thinking 90+10 for spore cloud, Adrenals depending, if I run Behemoth, likely won't need them....
What are you basing this on? I don’t see anything that indicates that change
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Post by: Lance845
Ive always enjoyed the idea of the sporecyst. This might tip it into worth taking.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Neurothropes can only deny one, not two. Contradicts what was in the video review I watched. Unless the epub version is inconsistent with the published?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They also forgot to give the biovore spore mine launcher ignores los again
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Post by: Arson Fire
Building carnifexes has become a lot more interesting.
For dakkafexes I was at first looking at the enhanced senses head. +1 BS being pretty awesome on a shooting unit after all.
But then I saw Monstrous Acid Maw. It's a reasonably decent close combat weapon that doesn't take up an arm slot. So you can have your 24 shot dakkafex, and also have it be competent in close combat.
My thinking is that since a dakkafex has only 18" range, it's quite likely that an enemy will charge it to try and shut it down. So the acid maw might be the best way to go.
If I was taking a long ranged carnifex with heavy venom cannon, then enhanced senses makes more sense.
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Post by: Cauthon
Am I reading this right? Tyrants and carnifex' can have two different bio cannons?
Says you can change one or both their kit with items from the bio cannons list and on the page that lists the bio cannons it just says you can't have multiples of the same one, so...yes?
Is that new?
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Post by: pinecone77
luke1705 wrote:pinecone77 wrote: Niiai wrote:Hi.
Saw over the carnifexes. Is tge screamer killer a bit exspensive? It starts out 90. Now that includes the plasmic scream, range 18, ap 4, yay. But not the scything tallons. So that is a total of 105. 115 with the -1 to hi sporecystt. And 120 for all that and edrenal glands. Is that a bit exspendive?
Regular carnifex with , 4x tresher scythe, Spore cysts, and adrenal glands clock in at 97 points. That is a whopping 23 points cheaper.
If you want to be attacking I think a bone mace at 2 points for S8 is good. It is an extra attack.
But maybi the Monstruc acid maw is good. Only S user, but it has AP -5 and D3 damage. 10 points. Although this might be better vs 2+ troops then T7 S3+. Scything tallons have a flat 3 damage, as opposed to the acid maws averadge 2.
I thought the new write ups included the base equipment...? I've been thinking 90+10 for spore cloud, Adrenals depending, if I run Behemoth, likely won't need them....
What are you basing this on? I don’t see anything that indicates that change
Articles in White Dwarf, Frontline gaming video(s)... Automatically Appended Next Post: Cauthon wrote:Am I reading this right? Tyrants and carnifex' can have two different bio cannons?
Says you can change one or both their kit with items from the bio cannons list and on the page that lists the bio cannons it just says you can't have multiples of the same one, so...yes?
Is that new?
If that is what is says, that would be new...used to have an see below note that said only one of Venom/Strangle.
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Post by: Niiai
On page 83. Asterix. Can.not have norr then one of these weapons.
Anyway, mellee fex has 4 options. Scything tallon, 2x scything tallons, big claws, and acid maw. Tusks supply for extra attack on several of these.
Ranged fexes can take the bs head, plasma head or the acid maw as it's cc weapon, making it a hybrid. I am finding my head imploding on this. If i mesd around with heavy cannons or devourers with 36 and 24 range respektivly i want the bs head. But if i take the range 18 guns there are big chances there will be mellee.
Also, are the to hit rolls really so bad on claws? If we get the charge it is +1 to hit. Tusks can generate more attackd. Should they not be able to smash T7?
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Post by: changemod
I'd kinda like a venom cannon 'fex but don't think there's really an efficient setup for it.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
My spreadsheet shows that crushing claws are worse than the ST all the time (Because of the extra attack and reroll 1s to hit), but not by a huge amount (~10% more efficient) and they cost ~10% more (12 vs 14).
If I was doing melee I'd do 2x MST and Spore cysts. Maybe tusks and/or bone mace if I had points leftover afterwards. Automatically Appended Next Post: changemod wrote:I'd kinda like a venom cannon 'fex but don't think there's really an efficient setup for it.
2x Devourers + HVC is a pretty solid anti-tank platform that is also decent vs a range of other targets.
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Post by: luke1705
pinecone77 wrote: luke1705 wrote:pinecone77 wrote:
I thought the new write ups included the base equipment...? I've been thinking 90+10 for spore cloud, Adrenals depending, if I run Behemoth, likely won't need them....
What are you basing this on? I don’t see anything that indicates that change
Articles in White Dwarf, Frontline gaming video(s)...
This is actually a really big deal if true (and makes much more sense in the context of the screamer killer). If that thing is a flat 100 including weapons and -1 to hit, I think that’s pretty good. Tossing an extra 15 on top makes little sense Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone confirm this? I don’t see that at all in the codex anywhere
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Post by: Lance845
luke1705 wrote:pinecone77 wrote: luke1705 wrote:pinecone77 wrote:
I thought the new write ups included the base equipment...? I've been thinking 90+10 for spore cloud, Adrenals depending, if I run Behemoth, likely won't need them....
What are you basing this on? I don’t see anything that indicates that change
Articles in White Dwarf, Frontline gaming video(s)...
This is actually a really big deal if true (and makes much more sense in the context of the screamer killer). If that thing is a flat 100 including weapons and -1 to hit, I think that’s pretty good. Tossing an extra 15 on top makes little sense
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can someone confirm this? I don’t see that at all in the codex anywhere
The codex is the only source that matters until a faq errata arrives. If the codex tells you to pay for wargear you pay for wargear.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Screamer killer is listed as 90 under "Does not include wargear"
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Post by: Fan67
Nids got easiest Brigade detachment, but after I made brigade list with neurotropes, termagants, stealers, tyrannofex, biovores, spores, zoantropes, harpies, carnifex and venomtropes, i felt that 2-3 specialized detachments of different hive fleets might be more competitive.
But stratagems are so powerful and CP consuming...
My head hurts.
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Post by: SideshowLucifer
I'm still a fan of 3 detachments. The brigade requires too much dedicated to a single adaptation.
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Post by: Fan67
I feel you are right, but will field test brigade first.
I can bet after couple month ig-genecult-nids lists will be most efficient option, especially if chapter approved rumors are true.
Nids will provide cheap fearless screen and stratagems shinanigans, while cult and IG will yield some dakka and assault potential.
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Post by: Nighttail
So the points value list in the Codex says "Does not include weapons", it doesn't say anything about wargear like other codices. Does this mean a Thornback gets its chitin thorns for free since it's part of the base model and isn't a weapon? Obviously other Carnifexes would need to pay for their non-weapon wargear since it isn't part of the base model.
Or do you think this is an oversight from GW?
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Post by: pinecone77
 Nighttail wrote:So the points value list in the Codex says "Does not include weapons", it doesn't say anything about wargear like other codices. Does this mean a Thornback gets its chitin thorns for free since it's part of the base model and isn't a weapon? Obviously other Carnifexes would need to pay for their non-weapon wargear since it isn't part of the base model.
Or do you think this is an oversight from GW?
If thats what it says, likely needs a FAQ, just for clarity. Frontline did a fair bit of playtest, so they know something about RAI. But thats not enough to be Sure. I heard that things that have base equip, just have it, like exocrenes, and a Screamer has no options, exept to upgtade....hmmm
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kinda depends on what "wargear" is.....If that means "pay for extras" (like -1 hit, etc) thats all good. Otherwise, I don't see Screamers making a "serious" list. 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fan67 wrote:Nids got easiest Brigade detachment, but after I made brigade list with neurotropes, termagants, stealers, tyrannofex, biovores, spores, zoantropes, harpies, carnifex and venomtropes, i felt that 2-3 specialized detachments of different hive fleets might be more competitive.
But stratagems are so powerful and CP consuming...
My head hurts.
I think it'll come down to "style" Do you like running several Hive Fleets ("Soup") then run 3 detachments. If you like having trump card moves from Strats, then Brigade plus is the way to go.
I think I lean towards Brigade plus, so I can get used to using one (or two) Fleets, so I can avoid making errors. Then use my Strat advantage to control the "tempo" of the battle.
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Post by: Timeshadow
So with our cheapest troop choice (Rippers) and HQ (Nurnthrope) we can fill out 3 battalions for 717 pts with very useful units (6 nurnthrope and 9 broods of 3 rippers) giving us a guaranteed 12 minimum CP. Then we can replace units to upgrade if we want better stuff but is this going to be a standard basic for most Lists now. We have a lot of great Strats now and having a big 12 cp pool is going to make things nasty for our enemies.
On the other hand a min cost regiment is 711pts and again everything is useful (even if it's just so other things can go into reserve...looking at you mucilids) for 6 CP is this worth it?
(2 Battalions and a regiment)711+239+239 = 1189 pts gives us 15 CP leaveing 811pts for "upgrades"
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Post by: Niiai
People over at the tyranid hive forum are praicing the sporocyst. What are your thoughts on it? Could it be competetive? It dropped in points and can generate spore units.
I would also imagine it in a list with biovores. Spore mines everywhere.
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Post by: Eldarain
I'm planning on using mine for sure. Been advocating them as a strong early game board presence/deep strike denial.
Their cost made it a tough sell in super optimized lists but I think they could factor in especially in lists trying to use them and Gaunts to protect Genestealer nests so they can be launched full strength into the enemy.
My early thoughts are Swarmy/shooting/genestealer heavy so the Stealers can get into the meaty center that the early shooting phase causes.
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Post by: Xenomancers
94188
Post by: babelfish
Putting together some trial lists. Rules are: 2000 points, 'nids only, must only consist if models that I have painted or could paint by next Saturday (local event). Troll potential is a bonus.
Kronos Monster Mash
Kronos Supreme Command Detachment, 902 Points
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
3x Venomthrope
Kronos Spearhead Detachment, 1091 Points
Hive Tyrant, LW/BS, Balethorn Cannon
Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Spore mines are attractive, but I have other places I'd rather spend my points on something I don't forsee generating that much damage over the course of the game.
At least Biovores allow you to project the mines to specific targets and possibly limit their movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
babelfish wrote:Putting together some trial lists. Rules are: 2000 points, 'nids only, must only consist if models that I have painted or could paint by next Saturday (local event). Troll potential is a bonus.
Kronos Monster Mash
Kronos Supreme Command Detachment, 902 Points
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
3x Venomthrope
Kronos Spearhead Detachment, 1091 Points
Hive Tyrant, LW/ BS, Balethorn Cannon
Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Why Kronos for the first detachment? Why not Kraken? Gives you the ability to fall back and bounce into other combats to either stop someone from shooting, or you can surround a model with all your tyrants, then they can't fall back and your tyrants can't be shot. I don't think you'll ever be sitting still to get the bonus to hit. You could do the Kronos WL Trait, but against armies that aren't spamming smite it seems like it will be unlikely to come up much.
Other option is behemoth for the charge reroll, but with no melee weapons on the flyrants, I don't see that as particularly great. Though, with the standard Tyrant kit, you can call the big talon feet Monstrous Rending Claws.
Or, Leviathan, which gives you a bit more durability for all your flyrants. Should statistically make them at effectively W14. Almost gets you a whole fifth Tyrant in durability.
Personally, Kraken seems too strong to me on such mobile units. I'd run MRC+2Dev on all the tyrants with Kraken.
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Post by: gigasnail
ref: sporocysts you infiltrate them, and then spit mines forward more. it should eat up huge amounts of real estate and they're not particularly expensive. take them as kronos and you're hitting on 5's rerolling 1's for your deathspitters. with the new 24" range on them, it doesn't sound terrible.
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Post by: Lance845
Well, my FLGS got screwed on their GW order and my codex and cards haven't shown up yet. If anyone wants to do a little unit write up for any particular units for the OP please PM me with them. Otherwise I am waiting on my codex to do anything substantial there so I can check my facts with the book.
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
 gigasnail wrote:ref: sporocysts you infiltrate them, and then spit mines forward more. it should eat up huge amounts of real estate and they're not particularly expensive. take them as kronos and you're hitting on 5's rerolling 1's for your deathspitters. with the new 24" range on them, it doesn't sound terrible.
What do you do when the enemy has infiltrators? Or a screening unit? Throw 3 mortal wounds and roughly 6 heavy bolter hits out a turn for over 100 pts on a totally immobile unit.
I don't think they're bad, but I'm not remotely interested in spending over 100 pts on one. I can barely fit what I consider the bare minimums for a competitive list as it is, and limiting enemy movement is not anywhere on that list. The more people move out of their deployment zone, the easier our lives are. Being able to surround models with chargers (So they can't fall back) is super, super, super important, and enemies need to spread out for that to happen.
Even with a pair, unless you deploy them extremely close, an enemy infiltrator can just deploy at the point where their 9" bubbles intersect and now all the area between them is a dead zone, so they're not even useful for creating space for your own deep striking units.
Maybe for a completely shooty list there's some solid value, but I'm not sure that shooty nids are going to be super viable. There's definitely some good stuff in there, but I don't think we have what it takes to outshoot Guard, SM or Eldar.
Genestealers can wipe out basically anything in the game, they're probably going to be our lynchpin unit for competitive lists.
That and Kraken Flyrants, because they're impossible to lock down, and with 2 devs+MRC they're actually pretty good against a huge range of stuff.
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Post by: Lance845
I think the sporecysts just helps to overwhelm. It's fairly tough, spits out super inconvenient spore mines, and has a good range on some decent guns. And (I think) it still expands synapse and maybe shadow in the warp (does it?).
Every shot fired into the spore cyst to stop it's annoyance is shots not fired at other threats and nids are only really competitive with overwhelming threat saturation.
I can see it doing some good work with Jormungandr. It's gets a bonus to it's save, it spews out it's spore and shots, it boosts your synapse helping to cover the troops you spit out of the tunnels.
I less want to surround enemies at game start and more want to deny any space but the enemies deployment zone and back field for their own deepstrikers. I want to totally control 2/3rds of the board on turn 1. To do that a sporecysts and the spore field stratagem along with Jorm tunnelers can give you total control of the field for a cost in CP on turn 1 regardless of whether you go first or second.
Good. Anything to maximize your first turn and minimize theirs. The first turn is too critical to deciding most games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battlescribe appears to be updated with the codex info. Would anyone with the dex mind checking it out for accuracy?
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Post by: gigasnail
Traceoftoxin wrote:
What do you do when the enemy has infiltrators? Or a screening unit? Throw 3 mortal wounds and roughly 6 heavy bolter hits out a turn for over 100 pts on a totally immobile unit.
you do what you do any time the enemy has infiltrators: you counter deploy and try to fill up space to limit space to deploy and move forward, pretty much exactly like you'd do if they didn't have infiltrators.
i'm not saying they're amazing/must take 6 in every list but yes, i think they're worth a serious look.
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Post by: babelfish
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
babelfish wrote:Putting together some trial lists. Rules are: 2000 points, 'nids only, must only consist if models that I have painted or could paint by next Saturday (local event). Troll potential is a bonus.
Kronos Monster Mash
Kronos Supreme Command Detachment, 902 Points
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourers, adrenal glands
3x Venomthrope
Kronos Spearhead Detachment, 1091 Points
Hive Tyrant, LW/ BS, Balethorn Cannon
Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Tyranofex, rupture cannon
Why Kronos for the first detachment? Why not Kraken? Gives you the ability to fall back and bounce into other combats to either stop someone from shooting, or you can surround a model with all your tyrants, then they can't fall back and your tyrants can't be shot. I don't think you'll ever be sitting still to get the bonus to hit. You could do the Kronos WL Trait, but against armies that aren't spamming smite it seems like it will be unlikely to come up much.
Other option is behemoth for the charge reroll, but with no melee weapons on the flyrants, I don't see that as particularly great. Though, with the standard Tyrant kit, you can call the big talon feet Monstrous Rending Claws.
Or, Leviathan, which gives you a bit more durability for all your flyrants. Should statistically make them at effectively W14. Almost gets you a whole fifth Tyrant in durability.
Personally, Kraken seems too strong to me on such mobile units. I'd run MRC+2Dev on all the tyrants with Kraken.
Right now I'm interested in exploring pure shooting nids. I may be missing/misreading something, but 24 S6 shots per tyrant +smite feels sturdy, particularly on a platform that can deep strike.
I don't like any of the Hive Fleets for the quad devourer Flyrants, and I went with Kronos to keep things simple. I do agree that Kraken has potential.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is another try at the same concept, a big bug all shooting build:
Kronos Spearhead, 978 Points
Neurothrope
Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyranofex (rupture cannon)
Tyranofex (rupture cannon)
Supreme Command, 1015 Points
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourer
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourer
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourer
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourer
Flying Hive Tyrant, 4x devourer
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Post by: Lance845
Im working on a nid list.
Jormungandr.
2 ravener and a trygon prime making tunnels for troops.
Should it be 2 units of 30 devourer gants and 1 unit of 30 hormagaunts?
Or
2 units of 30 hormagaunts and 1 units of devourer gants?
The devil gant units are 60 points more expensive. But I am having trouble deciding if the shooting would be more valuable then the tons of bodies to tie everyone up with. The rest of the list provides some good smite spam and other shooting. I have the trygon for strong melee, and the ravs are providing both deathspitters and rending claws. It's a good mix of shooting and melee and i am not 100% sure where to go.
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Post by: dan2026
What guns would you equip a Sporocyst with?
It has crap BS so Venom Canons don't seen too wise to me.
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Post by: Fan67
Biovores and sporecyst seem excellent at disturbing enemy's movement. I'd keep cysts as cheap as possible.
Looking at local top tier lists I don't see Flyrants to be competitive, too fragile and expensive. Haven't done mathhammer yet but they seem weaker than Vultures in damage output, and Vultures ain't that scarry.
Timeshadow wrote:So with our cheapest troop choice (Rippers) and HQ (Nurnthrope) we can fill out 3 battalions for 717 pts with very useful units (6 nurnthrope and 9 broods of 3 rippers) giving us a guaranteed 12 minimum CP. Then we can replace units to upgrade if we want better stuff but is this going to be a standard basic for most Lists now. We have a lot of great Strats now and having a big 12 cp pool is going to make things nasty for our enemies.
On the other hand a min cost regiment is 711pts and again everything is useful (even if it's just so other things can go into reserve...looking at you mucilids) for 6 CP is this worth it?
(2 Battalions and a regiment)711+239+239 = 1189 pts gives us 15 CP leaveing 811pts for "upgrades"
Unfortunately most of the TO of the large tournaments tend to forbid using same detachments.
Three battalions would be most convenient option.
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Post by: Niiai
Lance845 wrote:Im working on a nid list.
Jormungandr.
2 ravener and a trygon prime making tunnels for troops.
Should it be 2 units of 30 devourer gants and 1 unit of 30 hormagaunts?
Or
2 units of 30 hormagaunts and 1 units of devourer gants?
The devil gant units are 60 points more expensive. But I am having trouble deciding if the shooting would be more valuable then the tons of bodies to tie everyone up with. The rest of the list provides some good smite spam and other shooting. I have the trygon for strong melee, and the ravs are providing both deathspitters and rending claws. It's a good mix of shooting and melee and i am not 100% sure where to go.
You want devover gants. Ifyou are light on points you can run a mix of them. 20/10 or 15/15. Why you want lots of devouver gants is simply the 2xshooting stratagem. If you have a 4 man ravaner squad you might fit 90 termagauntsaround them for 3 command points. What does the trygon bring? Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. I have am ambisius question: What archtype style listst have we, and what are key elements to those listst?
To elborate further, I see peoole.talking about flyrants to remove chaff. Why is that? Does those lists run mellee units, and therefor the chaff must ve removed?
Do gunlines have the same problem?
How do tyranid alpha strike armies play?
What about a footslogging list? What are key elements to survive with those?
Hhat listst suffer from alpha strike, and how do we counter that?
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Post by: luke1705
Lance845 wrote:Im working on a nid list.
Jormungandr.
2 ravener and a trygon prime making tunnels for troops.
Should it be 2 units of 30 devourer gants and 1 unit of 30 hormagaunts?
Or
2 units of 30 hormagaunts and 1 units of devourer gants?
The latter. Devourer gants are only good if they’re firing twice. If you want extra dakka in a Jormungdr Detachment, grab a dakkafex or two. If you want to play competitively, though, that dakkafex will need to be upgraded to a dakka Flyrant. Would recgladly end either Kraken for perfect mobility and that beautiful -1 to hit relic or Kronos for psychic shenanigans. Really depends what you want your second Detachment to be.
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