Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**luke1705**

Razerous wrote:
So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?

A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?

Because (if so) sweet!

As addressed by Nilal, no you still need to be 9" away from the enemy.

All lictors do is allow you to redirect a unit that is coming in from reserves and allow it to come in next to the lictor.

This may seem sort of situational, as most units that can deep strike can already go wherever they want on their own. A couple notable uses:

1) Genestealers. They are allowed to deploy in reserve by their nodes, but those nodes must be placed in your deployment zone. A lictor allows them to instead be placed anywhere on the board as per normal deep strike, given that it is close enough to the lictor and still 9" away from enemy units. This is a big boon, and the primary use for which the stratagem was intended.

2) GSC Cult Ambush. Not all of their results allow you to deep strike normally. Roll a 1, 2, or 3 and instead spend a CP to redirect the unit right next to the lictor.

Unfortunately, both of these uses do need an FAQ. As the rule is written, it is unambiguous that the lictor can come down on turn 1 and so can the unit that it is "transporting". However, whether the intent is that the Lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn or not is unclear to some because they recall previously when this used to be the case for certain units. The same question applies to Cult Ambush. If the lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn before any deep striking units are deployed, this stratagem is effectively worthless. But pending an FAQ that reverses RAW, you can deep strike the unit that you're transporting at the same time as the Lictor.

The other issue is specific to Cult Ambush. Can you actually "redirect" the unit after you decide that you don't like it's roll, or do you have to use the stratagem before you roll the d6? I believe it is the former, but this could use an FAQ as well.

**Niiai**

For the time being, a lictor, 5 maguses with 5 powerpoints can allow you a quite good smite battery vs T8 things.

**buddha**

Initially thinking two battalions to get two complementary hive fleets Kraken and Kronos without having to go full brigade for CP. Should be about 2k with the plus and minus point changes:

Kronos:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, rending claws, relic HVC
Malanthrope
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Warriors: Boneswords and Deathspitters
3 Hive Gaurd: Imaplers
Exocrine

Shooting element that can shut down any psychic enemy.

Kraken:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, Two talons
Broodlord
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
30 Termgants
Trygon

The heavy CC portion. Why Kraken? Pairs best with the genestealers charge and advance rules and allows you to disengage in a turn to allow the shooting element to do it's thing then just re-charge back in.

**Marmatag**

Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

**Zimko**

Can named characters like Old One Eye take relics?

**combatcotton**

Nope. They get any hive fleet adaptation, but no relics.

**Marmatag**

but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.

So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.

I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.

**buddha**

Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

**Marmatag**

buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

**Dynas**

Marmatag wrote:
but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.

So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.

I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.

Yup do this and suicide charge into the heavy gunline, razorbacks, w/e and lockem them up.
Take Hydra, after they die, just respawn them on board edge, and recharge. Basically have an endless tarpit unit with a 30-40" threat range.

**buddha**

Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.

**pinecone77**

buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.

Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.

**buddha**

pinecone77 wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.

Oh, already bringing that gem on my other hive tyrant. That thing is a near must take in any army.

**pinecone77**

luke1705 wrote:
Razerous wrote:
So, for units in reserve.. .i.e. Ripper swarms or Trygon-assisted Tyranid Warriors (as an example); the Lictor allows what?

A unit to be placed within x" of the Lictor, no matter how close to the enemy unit?

Because (if so) sweet!

As addressed by Nilal, no you still need to be 9" away from the enemy.

All lictors do is allow you to redirect a unit that is coming in from reserves and allow it to come in next to the lictor.

This may seem sort of situational, as most units that can deep strike can already go wherever they want on their own. A couple notable uses:

1) Genestealers. They are allowed to deploy in reserve by their nodes, but those nodes must be placed in your deployment zone. A lictor allows them to instead be placed anywhere on the board as per normal deep strike, given that it is close enough to the lictor and still 9" away from enemy units. This is a big boon, and the primary use for which the stratagem was intended.

2) GSC Cult Ambush. Not all of their results allow you to deep strike normally. Roll a 1, 2, or 3 and instead spend a CP to redirect the unit right next to the lictor.

Unfortunately, both of these uses do need an FAQ. As the rule is written, it is unambiguous that the lictor can come down on turn 1 and so can the unit that it is "transporting". However, whether the intent is that the Lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn or not is unclear to some because they recall previously when this used to be the case for certain units. The same question applies to Cult Ambush. If the lictor needs to be on the board at the start of the turn before any deep striking units are deployed, this stratagem is effectively worthless. But pending an FAQ that reverses RAW, you can deep strike the unit that you're transporting at the same time as the Lictor.

The other issue is specific to Cult Ambush. Can you actually "redirect" the unit after you decide that you don't like it's roll, or do you have to use the stratagem before you roll the d6? I believe it is the former, but this could use an FAQ as well.

As written Lictors make Infestation nodes much more powerful. The foe is not sure where the Stealers will appear, And you can Lictor then into the backfield. I'd set the Nodes back, and out of LOS as much as possable, and have a least one able to babysit my gunbeasts against DS.

DS looks a lot riskier when I can pop some Stealers out and counter charge, if he drops next to the Node, he is far from the gun beasts.

I'd need to read the rule carefully to know if it works vs (Tyranid), or (Hive Fleet). If it does Lictors are a major boon to GSC.

**Marmatag**

Help my exhausted work brain: miasma cannon relic? What is the relic?

**pinecone77**

Right now I think you'd want to deploy your Stealers if you have first turn, and Node them to weather an Alpha strike....very nice options.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marmatag wrote:
Help my exhausted work brain: miasma cannon relic? What is the relic?

Super HVC, also Auto hits at 8" or less....

**Lance845**

Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.

**Marmatag**

Lance845 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.

Yes I understand how fly works, but i'm also not enthused in regards to recharging the Flyrant without some kind of melee weapon. Remember charging units have to fight first. So if you left someone in melee last turn, and they want to interrupt, they can do so after your naked melee flyrant swings.

I like the relic though, the super heavy venom cannon.

**princeyg**

yeah, my Flyrant already had a hvc and my colour scheme is kraken anways, first thing i saw was auto hitting HVC??? Yes Please!! couple this with a set of MRC and you`ve got one heck of a threat able to fall back, shoot (probably still auto hitting) and charge while still being a psyker!! The new 4+ invul is just icing on an already delicious cake.

**Dynas**

The nodes have good uses. You get 4. so you can use them in the following ways:

Place them on objectives in your Deployment zone to keep enemy warry of trying to cap an objective (especially good if they have a card for that objective). Makes them decide if getting the objective is worth potentially losing unit.

Place one way in the back or in safe area hard to reach to ensure you can get the Genestealers on the board without having to worry about them getting shot turn 1.

Place them on/near the board edges to guard against potential outflanking units.

You can place them in a more aggressive way in hope of luring the enemy out of position so he can try and "cap/eliminate" them.

Place them all to cover one another 9.5" apart, so if enemy gets close enough to take out one, then the other node allows them to cover/bait the other units.

Can place them on the edge of your deployment zone, especially against defensive armies like Tau, IG, Gunlines and then deploy to get an extra 6" of movement.

Thats all i can think of at the moment.

**Traceoftoxin**

Marmatag wrote:
but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.

So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.

I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.

Swarmlord has a lot of power, but is he worth 300 pts? That's the hardest part to me. With Kraken you can get 18" of movement reliably out of them, and with onslaught they can still charge. Considering the average of 7" on your charge, you should have no problem reaching a target 25" away. If they don't have ANYTHING within 25", then all of your deep strike capable elements should have been free to arrive right at their 9" line.

Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Kraken flyrants should be 2x DS/Dev and MRC. Takes advantage of being able to bounce out of combat, gun down fire support units, and charge others.

Dynas wrote:

Take Hydra, after they die, just respawn them on board edge, and recharge. Basically have an endless tarpit unit with a 30-40" threat range.

You have to pay for the respawns in matched play.

Extended carapace costing points makes it much less attractive to me, but without the 3+ I'm not sold on using Jormungandr for stealers. But you can't use more than 1 lictor pheromone trail per turn, so if you want to have the option to do a full null-deploy style attack (Obviously with 50% in rippers or whatever on the board) you must have Jormungandr or Trygons. The other option is go full Kraken or Leviathan and deploy fully on the board with a few deep strike options (1 trygon, 1 lictor, etc.) and hope the speed or 6+++ keeps enough alive to get you where you need to be.

**Marmatag**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
but also I still get back to this. The Swarmlord really allows us to control the field on that critical first turn. double move + advance & charge = solid, especially if you're reliably advancing 5-6", and you can double the advance for a CP.

So hormagants moving a total of 30" pre-charge, with Swarmy psychic buffing and giving them an extra move. With a 6" pile in and a reliable 5" charge, that's over 40" of possible threat turn 1. An amazing tarpit.

I know i'm a broken record when it comes to defending hormagants but I like them. Kraken seems like the best hive fleet for them. Behemot would be nice, because you get reliable charges. But I have never been a fan of deep strike charges, even with rerolls they're super unreliable.

Swarmlord has a lot of power, but is he worth 300 pts? That's the hardest part to me. With Kraken you can get 18" of movement reliably out of them, and with onslaught they can still charge. Considering the average of 7" on your charge, you should have no problem reaching a target 25" away. If they don't have ANYTHING within 25", then all of your deep strike capable elements should have been free to arrive right at their 9" line.

Kraken flyrants should be 2x DS/Dev and MRC. Takes advantage of being able to bounce out of combat, gun down fire support units, and charge others.

Wait, are you saying 2 devourers and monstrous rending claws?

I can't say if the Swarmlord is worth 300 points. But being able to reliably charge turn 1 is a big deal, and he gives you that. And you get to reposition him after the seize roll. So you already know who is going first guaranteed.

**Lance845**

Marmatag wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fly lets you fall back and shoot. Not charge. A flyrant from kraken can fall back, shoot, and recharge to ensure its attacking first again. Flyrants actually get to continously use all 4 phases with that trait.

Yes I understand how fly works, but i'm also not enthused in regards to recharging the Flyrant without some kind of melee weapon. Remember charging units have to fight first. So if you left someone in melee last turn, and they want to interrupt, they can do so after your naked melee flyrant swings.

I like the relic though, the super heavy venom cannon.

Bring rending claws and the miasma cannon. Fall back, get a bunch of autohits that wound on 2+ vs non vehicles, charge back in and murder.

Build for both. Do both.

**pinecone77**

buddha wrote:
Initially thinking two battalions to get two complementary hive fleets Kraken and Kronos without having to go full brigade for CP. Should be about 2k with the plus and minus point changes:

Kronos:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, rending claws, relic HVC
Malanthrope
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Warriors: Boneswords and Deathspitters
3 Hive Gaurd: Imaplers
Exocrine

Shooting element that can shut down any psychic enemy.

Kraken:
Hive Tyrant: Wings, Two talons
Broodlord
20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
30 Termgants
Trygon

The heavy CC portion. Why Kraken? Pairs best with the genestealers charge and advance rules and allows you to disengage in a turn to allow the shooting element to do it's thing then just re-charge back in.

AH, I'd put the Balethorn Relic in Kronos, and Miasma Cannon in Kraken

**Deshkar**

pinecone77 wrote:
AH, I'd put the Balethorn Relic in Kronos, and Miasma Cannon in Kraken

But you can only take one for free.

**pinecone77**

Deshkar wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:
AH, I'd put the Balethorn Relic in Kronos, and Miasma Cannon in Kraken

But you can only take one for free.

Yep, thats why I said I'd spend a cp for the Miasma up stream.

**SHUPPET**

posting here to subscribe, nothing to add for now

**Astmeister**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
Resipsa131 wrote:
Related to fighting the charged unit. Which models get to fight all of them or only the models that are within an inch of the models that are in base contact?

Read your rulebook. It's 8 pages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

So, I made a simple chart for anti-vehicle (T7/3+) that gives average damage and cost. This ONLY measures damage efficiency. If I didn't include it, it's probably because it's not cost-competitive. That is to say, a Hive Tyrant will never be a cost efficient source of anti-vehicle, because it pays a lot of points for mobility, durability, psyker powers, etc. I was hesitant to include statlines for buffed units (E.G. WS2 Genestealers via broodlord, WS2 Carnifex from charging+OOE, etc.) because it's impossible to measure their cost on a per-model basis, but I put them in just to show the kind of efficiency gains you get from them.

I'm not really surprised to see buffed Genestealers are, by a massive margin, the best anti-tank in the book. More interesting though, is that unbuffed (WS3 A3) Genestealers are barely less effective than our most effective ranged anti-tank. They are also better than any Carnifex that isn't buffed by OOE, and only marginally worse than a Trygon. In a group of 10 or more, they're just better than the Trygon. Seeing the nice little buff Acid Maw gives wasn't a surprise, but if you notice a lack of Toxin Sac Acid Maw... it's because Acid Maw is actually WORSE than RC with TS. This is because Acid Maw allows a save on the D2 wounds, whereas the RC are -4, so it's guaranteed D2. Basically, if you are running TS genestealers, you may not want Acid Maw, or you may want to remove them first if you're trying to maximize your AT abilities. The Broodlord does an impressive amount of damage for a character who also provides synapse, SITW, buffs and is a psyker.

In shooting, the shock guard are #1 because of MW generation. Despite buffs to the Rupture cannon, the Exocrine does more damage for less. I accidentally put the exocrine BS4 value in without cutting it's shots in half, I suppose that entry can be useful for considering firing at a -1 target or something... /shrug. With Impaler cannons being more efficient and more flexible than the rupture cannon, unless you expect to run into T8 vehicles, there doesn't appear to be much reason to bring a tyrannofex. BS3 VC warriors are actually pretty efficient anti-tank, but once you include the rest of their squad, it's far less impressive. If you could keep splitting the fire and targeting infantry with the DS, then it may be worth investing in a big squad with 3 VC. To add further insult to the Tyrannofex, a HVC+2xDS Fex with BS3 is basically as cost efficient for anti-tank. Harpies and both types of dakkafex are just not good for anti-tank (Though they are a tiny bit out of order in the chart, sorry). Devourer gaunts are actually respectable for AT duties, with a full squad of 30 averaging 5.1 damage.

TL;DR - Genestealers are the most cost efficient damage in our codex. Trygons, Melee fex and Broodlords are all pretty good. Shock guard and Exocrines are our best ranged AT. Hive Guard are basically the same average as a Tyranno, though the Tyranno has a much higher damage potential.

Your chart is really usefull, however it misses some softskills on the Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon.
It is not always just about points per damage. Especially with vehicles, you want to drop the thing as fast as possible. Transporters more than anything else. In this case the Rupture Cannon really shines and we should not forget its potential on using a CP reroll on the damage to destroy whatever you want.
I think that a T-Fex is well worth it against vehicles.

**NackaNid**

How will you use the nodes for genestealers?

If it were in the beginning of the movement-phase that they can get out of hiding, it would be awesome. But now, feels like it's only situational.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

You get so little for adding an additional melle weapon +1 attack is weak when you can have a good ranged weapon for the same cost. MRC are free. I'm just going to give my kraken flyrants HVC or double dev and MRC

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pinecone77 wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
buddha wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Would you do kraken flying hive tyrants built for melee? I really like the ability to fall back 16" and charge, after locking up a screen.

Eh, current model. I'm thinking dual devourerss, ironically for the Kraken section.

But why? What good is falling back and charging if your intent is to fall back and shoot anyway? Fly enables it, so you don't need to be Kraken.

Fair point. A mixed rending claws and heavy vennom cannon might be the best solution then.
Then you could decide to spend a cp before the game to make it a Miasma Cannon.

You do get 1 free relic. I'm not sure why you wouldn't always include the miasma cannon