1) What archtype style listst have we, and what are key elements to those lists?
2) To elborate further, I see peoole.talking about flyrants to remove chaff. Why is that? Does those lists run mellee units, and therefor the chaff must ve removed?
3) Do gunlines have the same problem?
4) How do tyranid alpha strike armies play?
5) What about a footslogging list? What are key elements to survive with those?
6) What lists suffer from alpha strike, and how do we counter that?
1) we have a few unique identifies now:
Mobile gunline: includes Dakkafex, Dakka Flyrants, Devilgants, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Tyrannofex, Biovore. The latter 4 aren’t super mobile but the former 3 are exceedingly mobile). Can also include Raveners and/warriors as fire support,
Maximum Threat Overload (coined by jy2): includes assault units such as Genestealers, Hormagants, Gargoyles, likely Swarmlord, and units to clear out the chaff such as Devilgants, dakka flyrants, Dakkafexes. Extra threat added to taste.
Fex Wall: essentially our version of Dreadnought spam. Tbh, it’s not really as good as Dreadnought spam due to our lack of any invulnerable save, but our models are cheaper and have a built in 2+ (lets be honest, this is only a Jormungdr list). Still totally viable.
Horde: No other army has access to quite as many fearless models except maybe Orks, but we are fearless to the last and have a lot more unique identity and utility with our gribblies. And our inherent mobility doesn’t require a Psyker. Units include pretty much all of the gribblies haha
2) It’s not so much melee units as screening units. Imagine playing against someone who has 45 Jormungdr termagants lying in between you and the gunline units that you have to peel open like an onion, and you’ll have a pretty accurate depiction of the competitive scene right now. Gotta kill it, so Devilgants and Dakka Flyrants are crucial.
3) I’m not sure what you mean by that. Tyranid gunlines? No, we can shoot over the screening units. But if we want to have gunline units, then yes we have to ourselves bring screening units.
4) Hit hard, hit fast, hit first
5) Jormungdr. Malanthropes.
6) All. This is a huge part of the meta. We counter this by deploying in reserves, which we are able to do better than any army in the game IMO.
Any thoughts on the Hausperex, now pointed fairly, as a tank buster? Bit slow at 7" but a good candidate for swarmlord's ability but really helps against a tank heavy meta.
Ok. Here are a couple lists I think I want to try out. I don't play super tourney competitive. Generally don't see a lot of forge world and what not. But trying to build this as a general TAC list.
It's all Jormungandr. The general idea is to sort of spread out my deployments nearish the front of the my deployment zone. Infiltrate the sporecyst, and use the spore field stratagem to build lines of spore mines in front and behind my deployment spaced 18.5"ish out from my deployed units to blanket the board in a no deepstrike zone. while also providing cover for all the the characters I have. If the enemy gets first turn they are going to have to spend it wasting their time on spores for the most part. I want to RUIN the first game turn for them and then capitalize on it.
On my turn, I deepstike in the raveners and trygon prime bringing with them the termagants to chew through any screens or soften up targets and Hormagaunts to tie up my opponents units. Trygon will target vehicles and high T targets while raveners will go after key enemy units supported by the red terror.
Exocrine and Tyrant provide fire support while neurothropes provide psychic support and smite/deny spam.
My hope is to cause so much disruption on the first turn that my opponent is forced to play on my terms. His strategies don't get to come into play and by the time he can utilize any deep strikers they are going to have to be reactionary to try and reign in my MTO. Hopefully my alpha strike combined with board control is so large and just SO much that it just turns his first couple turns into shambles and the rest of the game is him on the back foot trying to regain some kind of order.
Version 1
Spoiler:
Battalion HQs Hive Tyrant - Twin Devourers and Miasma Cannon (may go death spitters for the added range and the AP... costs the same either way)
Malanthrope
Troops
Hormagaunts x 30 - adrenal glands
Termagants x 30 - devourers
Termagants x 30 - devourers
Heavy Support
Exocrine
Trygon Prime - Adrenal glands
Fortification Network Sporocyst - Deathspitters
Outrider Detachment HQ Neurothrope
Elite
The Red Terror
Fast Attack
Raveners x 3 - Death Spitters and Rending claws
Raveners x 3 - Death Spitters and Rending claws
Mucolid Spore
How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.
That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.
What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?
Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.
I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.
Sure, its more backfield support, and sure, some others may take the role better than him, but its also a very hard nut to crack.
In my opinion a good middle way for beeing scary enough for some dudes to take another way, and beeing not that much of a primary threat to get it shot down turn 1.
To make him more durable, maybe a Jormungandr spearhead detachment with Neurothrope, and some biovores marchin aorund as body guards for the Neurothrope?
Rather expensive... i dont think this will work that well.
Maybe Carnifexes, or Warrirors to accompany it?
How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.
That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.
I would go with the neurothropes. You cant split the 4 Zoanthropes smite on 2 units and you can only deny one power with them. 2 Neurothropes are more flexible supporting your army at different table edges, and because of beeing a character more durable in most cases.
Edit2:
Losing one of your 4 Zoanthropes degrades the unit to only 1 power per turn, beeing smite or something else.
How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.
That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.
I will for sure consider shaving off points with the ravners as you say. I was intending to have them do their shooting to soften targets on arrival and then get in there and fight. Having hormagaunts eating overwatch for everybody else.
It IS a lot of Neurothropes. I could swap some out for zoanthropes. 1) I was looking for cheap HQs. 2) Being 3++ characters with <10 wounds means on my initial deployment they are all untargetable. I can sit one slightly in front of the others with the spore mines lined up in front of that. In order for the opponent to shoot me he has to clear away all the mines, maybe clear away the sporocyst and then shoot whatever is left at a single 3++ 5w character. It more or less gaurantees the bulk of my deployed army enters the second turn untouched. Zoanthropes on the other hand while tough will just be shot. 3) I was not intending to only have smite and psychic scream on them. I was looking to give a couple catalyst and place them on opposite sides of the board to add a 5+ FNP where needed most. And maybe some paroxysm to place on melee focused enemy units to keep the flow of melee in my favor.
This list is all capped out on what can be deepstriked at the moment. It's a pure 50/50. For every 1 more thing I want to join a tunnel I need 1 more thing to deploy normally.
DaBraken wrote: What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?
Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.
I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.
I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.
Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?
Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Niiai wrote: Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.
Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?
Its only for infantry units as far as i know. Would be devastating if not.
DaBraken wrote: What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?
Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.
I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.
I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.
Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?
You can't use it with them. The shoot twice stratagem is for infantry.
DaBraken wrote: What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?
Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.
I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.
I actually quite like the look of the Fleshborer Hive as there's a stratagem that gives fleshborers +1 to wound, which makes the Tfex wound MEQs on 2s.
Speaking of Tyrannofexes though (and Exocrine) if they haven't moved and fire twice and then you use the shoot again stratagem, do they shoot once more or a further two times?
The shoot twice stratagem is only for infantry units. The flesh bore hive does benefit a lot from the +1 to wound stratagem. Being only 18" range though - I don't think you will ever be shooting twice. Better off using a carnifex for about half the price - getting +1 to hit with better strength on it's attacks. Tyranofex seems best with the rupture cannon - 2nd best with acid spray. I think it's worst with flesh-bore hive.
DaBraken wrote: What do you think about the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray?
Now 24" threat range with 2D6 auto hitting shots while moving, 18" 4D6 while stationary. In addition stinger salvo.
For 214 points I think thats fair and probably it will generate a lot of empty space 18" around him.
I defenitely will field one or two, rather than the rupture cannon.
Massive threat against flyers coming too close and anything else trying to hide behind its hit modifiers.
Sure, its more backfield support, and sure, some others may take the role better than him, but its also a very hard nut to crack.
In my opinion a good middle way for beeing scary enough for some dudes to take another way, and beeing not that much of a primary threat to get it shot down turn 1.
To make him more durable, maybe a Jormungandr spearhead detachment with Neurothrope, and some biovores marchin aorund as body guards for the Neurothrope?
Rather expensive... i dont think this will work that well.
Maybe Carnifexes, or Warrirors to accompany it?
How close do you land the ravaners? If yoiu are 12" away I would rather take CC pistol for 1 point, instead of heavy bolters are 5 points. If you are 18 away, stick with the bolters, but rending claw seems better in CC version. I would try to shave some points on the, now they are trying to be 2 things.
That is a lot of Neuronthropes. after the 1rst nerurontrhope that can cast both smite and psykick scream, would not the 2 next neuronthropes better as zoanthropes. 24" range and a good smite. You can also transport them with Jormunghard to get them close.
I would go with the neurothropes. You cant split the 4 Zoanthropes smite on 2 units and you can only deny one power with them. 2 Neurothropes are more flexible supporting your army at different table edges, and because of beeing a character more durable in most cases.
Edit2:
Losing one of your 4 Zoanthropes degrades the unit to only 1 power per turn, beeing smite or something else.
I've always been a fan of Tyranofex. I'm thinking that super metabolic advance could put her most anyplace you want...Krakon? roll 3D, pick one, then double move...sounds zippy. Though, after all that she's just a distraction carnifex.
Niiai wrote: Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.
Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.
Niiai wrote: Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.
Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.
That's why the 4 armed emperor invented the norn crown. Unless you are leviathan and you want to snuggle together like pinguins.
Niiai wrote: Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.
Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.
I agree, currently I'm planning on one Fleet, adding in a Kronos Supreme Command of x3 Winged Tyrants...Winged Tyrants seldom provide any Synapse, they're either doing work, or dead. But I may end up running a "pure" Hive Fleet list.
Niiai wrote: Your supreme commander detchjaments can help a lot if they are Kronos, I will give your list that. If you have magus trouble that can be good? Although he is not shut down without having a kronos warlord as well.
Also a possibility. I currently have 7 synapse creatures. That would basically remove 3 of them as being synapse creatures but the Kronos bonuses are good. A easy adjustment to make but it does make me worry about my synapse web a little. I have never had so few synapse creatures to support my list before.
Splitting fleets might prove to be more detrimental in game than in list building. I am a little concerned myself.
That's why the 4 armed emperor invented the norn crown. Unless you are leviathan and you want to snuggle together like pinguins.
The Norn crown doesn't do gak IMO. Removing the penalties of instinctive behavior isn't the same thing as automatically passing moral tests.
Instinctive Behaviour isn't something to worry about really. You only need to be within 2ft of a synapse creature to not have to worry about it at all. But I DO have to worry about my termagants, hormagaunts and raveners deciding to up and run away when they start loosing bodies. To protect THAT I need synapse, not a Norn Crown.
Norn Crown is again a dud option. It needs to increase synapse, IB and SitW to be worth taking over one of the GREAT relic weapons. Hell, I might even spend the CP to get the Jormungandr Relic on the Trygon Prime to reduce enemy units Ld by 1 so when my alpha strike is over moral might kick in a little harder. Not sold on the idea yet, but it doesn't look awful either. But you know... scyths of Tyrann look better, 6 attacks base. +1 from 2 pairs of scy tal. +1 from tyrann +1 for each 6 rolled on 7 of the now 8 attacks it gets. (Edit: Behemouth only.... never mind)
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Yeah, a "pure" Kronos looks to be a shooty Nids list, then using Wings to get where you need to go.
Say x2 Exocrenes, and some Biovores, Termagants as a screen...then x3 Winged Tyrants in a Supreme, one more Tyrant, or Swarmy on foot, or Wings....seems like a viable army...maybe not Tourney level though.....I'd likely add Rippers. or Gargoyles to grab objectives....maybe look at Smite Spamming...
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
I agree. I see Kronos being useful in a command detachment with Flyrants for countering casters, or in a backfield gunline using Exocrines/Tyranofexes/Hive Guard/Biovores
If you are going to use your infantry for anything but screening a gunline you are going to want them to be a different Hive Fleet. I don't see that as a big issue-if you are going to be aggressive with them you want aggressive synapse anyway, so you already plan on taking an extra HQ or to.
I image that after we get some games in tournament builds are going to start looking like a Kronos gunline supporting some absurd number of Horma's/'stealers, with the infantry Hive Fleet varying according to individual build.
What are the Nids best options against vehicles in CC if you didn't want to play a gunline and wanted to go all in on assault? Is going pure assault a mistake overall?
I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.
buddha wrote: I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.
Not a bad idea. How's OOE with an escort of a pair of CC Fexes looking these days? Also, does a mix of gunline/assault Nids work well or would it best to commit to one or the other?
So a question to all I bought 1 box of tervigon/tyrannofex and 1 spoecyst/tranicyte which one of each is more recommend and with what load out. I'm liking tyrannofex a lot
ballzonya wrote: So a question to all I bought 1 box of tervigon/tyrannofex and 1 spoecyst/tranicyte which one of each is more recommend and with what load out. I'm liking tyrannofex a lot
I've always liked and used Tyrannofen. I think both the Acid Spray, and the big gun (Rupture) are usable builds. The Rupture wants to sit and shoot, the Spray wants to advance then camp...so "style", and Hive Fleet will make a diff...I suggest Magnets.
A few test games under my belt with the new codex.
#1: If using ITC Champs missions, don't run max squads. There is a secondary that gives opponents a bonus for killing a unit that starts with 20+ and double bonus for 30+ models. So run 19 Stealers, and 29 Gants.
#2: Acid Spray TFex is weird. I killed a stormraven with it, and lots of primaris marines. In all 3 games I was able to double shoot most of the game. Still, I feel like a 2nd Exocrine would be better.
#3: Genestealers staying in their nodes is really cool. I was able to null deploy by putting a few T8 beasties and a bunch of Chars behind them giving my opponent no good targets. I was Jormungandr, so I was really tanky against my opponent's alpha strike.
#4: Dakka Flyrant? I spent all 3 games charging him into combats that he failed to do much in. If feels like Keeping a set of MRC's is probably going to be worth it for me.
#5: Using Ravenors to deliver gribbles worked pretty well, but 30 Gants take up more space than you'd think. I thought I'd be able to do it with 3 Ravernors, but I strongly recommend 4 or 5.
#6: Genestealer Acid Maw mainly slowed down rolling. Didn't have a huge impact. Leaning towards skipping it in the future.
#7: I really like Neurothope with Catalyst. He rarely fails. He delivers a fair amount of mortal wounds via smite thanks to his reroll 1's. If you've got a Free HQ, take a Neurothrope.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: What are the Nids best options against vehicles in CC if you didn't want to play a gunline and wanted to go all in on assault? Is going pure assault a mistake overall?
A full assault army is not bad per se, but 'nids don't really support that, there are factions that can beat you at that game. The 'nids concept of assault army integrates a lot of cheap shooting and as many tricky deployments as you can get. If you want pure frontal violence then you must look toward Khorne.
For CC options against vehicle you have many, with fexes being the obvious ones (the stratagem for wound rerolling is the key here). Haruspices also at the new cost are a good option, but he really shines if you can multiassault a tank and a troop at the same time. Trygons bring the hurt on almost everything with Str 7 and all those massive scythe attacks. Tyrant guards with crushing claws are an hidden gem, they cost a bit more than a terminator with powerfist, but have more attacks, more Strenght, are faster, harder and can be mixed with cheaper guards to get some ablative wounds. Take toxin sacs, at 1 point they are always worth it. If you play behemoth an hyve tyrant with the relic talon is a given, but taking a second melee weapon is useless, so you can give him a ranged option.
I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding Tyranids. I used to play them in 4th/5th, but I couldn't afford to invest hugely in them. Hence, I don't have a lot of the big, new monsters (Trygon, Tervigon, Exocrine etc,). Nor do I have that many little bugs.
Basically, I'm curious as to whether I can make a remotely viable army out of what I have.
I wasn't sure about which Hive Fleet to use - I was torn between Leviathan and Jormungandr.
I can change the loadouts on the Hive Tyrant, Carnifexes etc., but this is basically all the models I own (aside from a Hive Guard and Venomthrope which I'm unable to use).
Does this list look viable? If not, would it be possible to make a decent list with these models?
If the answer is 'no', that's fine. I can always swarm people with my Imperial Guard instead.
Nids are one of the best, if not the best, pure assault armies in the game.
But what every pure assault army suffers from is the dreaded screening unit. You could obliterate 100 conscripts in one turn (and I’ve seen this happen), but that’s only a small portion of the enemy’s army, at which point all of your stuff is literally hanging in the wind and you usually lose if your opponent brings a competitive list.
So as long as you can reliably kill the screening units and then assault the stuff behind them on the same turn, or hold your stuff in reserves for a turn longer so that you get the drop on them, your assault list is going to do great.
If you can’t do that, it’s a problem.
Of course, if your opponents refuse to bring screening units, you’re golden!
Ran my first game with the new dex. Was against Harlequins, so not the best metric to measure against.
My list;
Battalion - Kraken
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Psychic Scream, Paroxysm (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, never suffers penalty to hit trait)
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope
I took two catalysts because I wanted to make sure I could put it anywhere on the board I needed. Kept what I consider the most important powers (Catalyst, Onslaught) off the warlord because I figure he'll be the first major target and I want to keep those powers available.
Harlequin list was roughly
3x Troupe Master
2x Shadowseer
Was Vanguard (The corner to corner) deployment. Maelstrom, with a fair spread of objectives. He had first turn. He deployed to make sure I didn't have anywhere behind him to deep strike. I set up both flyrants, 20 stealers, 20 devourers and both trygons in reserve. 20 stealers in the center, 30 horms on either side. Mal in the middle, 1 neurothrope behind each horm squad.
Turn 1 he moved the bikes/solitaire more towards my right flank, around 22-24" or so from my right hormagaunts, with the solitaire up in a building. 1 star weaver about 23" from my stealers, and the rest kinda shuffled to ensure I couldn't get behind him. His shooting picked up 5 and 6 horms respectively, and 2 stealers.
My turn 1, thanks to 3d6 for advance I got 6 with my stealers and doubled it, putting me 20" up the board. Both horm squads advanced, but the right squad only 3". I managed to fit both flyrants and the devourer gants on the right flank, I kept the stealers off the board. Between psychic phase and shooting phase I removed all 6 bikes and the solitaire, and put catalyst on the stealers. The stealers only got a 5" charge on the star weaver (Even after I rerolled a 2 with a CP), so I couldn't surround it. I did manage to make 1" with pile ins into 2 of the arty pieces, and just barely killed the vehicle. My whole reason for charging was to surround the vehicle and wipe the squad, and even 7" of movement would have been enough to get me around the fins on the vehicle and guarantee death for everyone inside. Sadly, I settled for locking out 2 arty pieces and the dead transport.
His turn 2 he gets 2 squads out, flys one transport past my horms to go for a far objective and get line breaker. Shooting and psychic phase brought the stealers down to 7 models. He charged 1 troupe+master into the left horms, and a troupe+master+shadowseer into the GS. He activated the master first and picked up 2 more, which ended up pulling his shadowseer out of 1". I opted to interrupt and go for the troupe. 15 attacks should have gotten me ~3 dead, but I only managed to pick up one. In turn the stealers made 10/10 5++/5+++ so I couldn't really complain. I forgot to use caustic blood, and the troupe+master killed 22 hormagaunts on the left. In return I picked up 1 or 2 players. I was down to 3 CP by this point and had a tough choice. I had let the stealers fall out of synapse because I didn't think they'd survive to a morale check. I blew 2 to keep them alive, I figured charging them in should be enough to wipe a shadowseer or the remnants of a troupe.
My turn 2 I advance up my warlord flyrant and normally move the other (Neither had realistic charge ranges) towards a transport. Devourers move up but a giant LOS blocking terrain piece is going to keep them from shooting most of their shots. Trygon goes towards my far left corner to box in that transport that jumped over my lines. Right hormagaunt squad advances (Intend to onslaught it) right up infront of what he has left of infantry on my right. Left horms fall back to charge back in. I bring up the other trygon+GS in the center of the board. I fail every buff/debuff in psychic, but between smites, scream and shooting I pick up a transport, most of his troupes are wiped out, and he loses some wounds here and there from characters. I can't charge with right horms, but the 5 stealers go for a single shadowseer, and the left horms charge back in on whats left of his troupe on the left. Left side all he has left is his master, right side I roll terribly and the seer only takes a little damage.
His turn 3 the transport on my left goes into the corner, up in a building. Master jumps past my horms and charges the malanthrope+neurothrope. Right side he charges into the 5 man stealer squad and the hormagaunts. The neuro/mal/master combat is a wash. Like 11 hormagaunts and the last of the stealers die.
My turn 3 I get the new Trygon up to his left troupe master. Right horms fall back past his lines towards his big guns. GS get a 6 advance and surround what's left of his infantry. Both flyrants swoop right into the middle of his chars. psychic and shooting wipes out or weakens most of his stuff, including popping the left master. Charges wipe out the rest of his infantry, and I manage to keep 1 horm alive holding 2 arty pieces.
We call it there. I've lost 29+27 horms, 20 genestealers, and 1 devourer gaunt. He has 5 rangers, 1 transport and 3 arty pieces left.
He made a few mistakes, namely underestimating the GS distance and not being more careful with his solitaire placement. However, the 20" move on GS meant that if he didn't have a unit within their charge range, I was going to drop the other 20 stealers right beside them. For the solitaire, I did most of the damage in psychic, and so wiping the bikes with the dev gaunts and 1 flyrant meant I still would have had 1 more flyrant to finish the solitaire off.
For me, caustic blood would have likely been a massive deal. The 3-4 extra wounds would have finished the left troupe+master off a turn earlier. I held off using pathogenic slime because I didn't want to use D2 on W3 models (Wasting every other +1D) when I was already going to spend 2 CP to double tap the devourer gants, which ended up being the right call. If I had been more cognizant of synapse I may have been able to save 2 CP.
In general, I think nids are going to be way too fast for most armies. I was looking at situations and realized that if you charge a screening unit turn 1, there are two possible outcomes that are amazing. First, you surround it but don't kill it. It can't fall back, you got a ton of free movement and are immune to shooting. The second is much more insidious. This works best with GS or horms that have had onslaught cast on them. You charge, wipe the unit, activate overrun (1 CP), move+advance AGAIN (so 8+ 3d6 pick the highest), then spend 3 CP to activate them to fight again (They charged, they are eligible to activate), allowing you to pile in to units WELL within the enemy deployment zone. You should, pretty easily, be able to wrap up something to prevent enemy shooting you, and hopefully shut down a large amount of enemy firepower. I recognize that it is expensive at 4CP, and you're giving up the ability to swing on anything you pile into the second time, but, particularly with Horms, you could be spending 4 CP to give a huge portion of your army a full turn to avoid being shot. If you were facing IG for example, and you made a 24" charge with GS into a conscript screen... you could easily wipe out a 20 man squad, then get a full move into their lines and another set of pile in+consolidates.
I was a big fan of the flyrants, though I think that may be very different vs shooty armies. With 2 casts each I can smite and still use a buff/debuff/scream, and while I would have liked 24 shots each, I like how hard they hit in combat while being super mobile. I'm pretty sure they'll be great for hunting down characters and fire support units. With the speed of kraken, I'm not 100% sold on needing the Trygon for the stealers, and may elect instead to drop a trygon+rippers and run 3x19 on the board. Should I really feel the need I can still do infestation to semi-null deploy. I could also drop 1 GS from each unit and have enough points to take a single lictor, giving me the option to pheromone trail. Not sure yet. I think 57 stealers at -1 to hit will be hard for most armies to remove, and if they are focusing down the stealers I can lock them down with hormagaunts and yadda yadda yadda.
tag8833 wrote: #6: Genestealer Acid Maw mainly slowed down rolling. Didn't have a huge impact. Leaning towards skipping it in the future.
#7: I really like Neurothope with Catalyst. He rarely fails. He delivers a fair amount of mortal wounds via smite thanks to his reroll 1's. If you've got a Free HQ, take a Neurothrope.
#6 Acid Maw doesn't replace ST or RC, so it just gives you a free extra weapon. Absolutely worth using vs T3/4 units with 4+ or better, but if you're wounding on 5s it's barely a buff, and wounding on 6s rending claws are better.
#7 Neurothropes are amazing. They can cast a nid power and still smite. So clutch.
He played Orks with a deffdred, Mech, named painboy, battle wagon, big unit of boys, big unit is nobs, everything he had had max upgrades
We played standard dawn of war with 4 objectives with random values. He ended up with the 4 and the 1 while I had two 2's. though in the long run it didn't end up mattering as He conceded on turn 4 before he could be tabled.
My takeaways:
Swarmlord with new toughness and3+\ 4+ teamed with psychic support and tyrant guard is a pretty beefy death star vs other melee armies. I cast catalyst and the horror on whatever was scary and proceeded to only lose one wound for the rest of the game.
One carnifex isn't enough. I felt he didn't do much this game except catch bullets while I chased around targets.
I am not sure what strategy Leviathan is building towards, other hive fleets seem to have a much clearer unifying theory and
lend themselves to certain strategic advantages. My gut tells me that Leviathan will/would be one of the few lists that you would only have it as a single fleet. This seems like it would be the only way to get any efficiency out of the trait and get a return on points. Still not sure of how to win the game with it other than try to play like old battle company. MSU warriors screened by cheap gants on objectives. With DS genestealers/swarmlord kamikazee'd into the enemy as distractions.
As for Orks, obviously neither list was hyper competitive but I felts if he had just gone with 90 boys and some buffing characters I would have been in trouble.
Everyone else's thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone else notice Tyranid prime doesn't have the Tyranid warrior keyword? The only character in this vein in our book not to buff themselves.
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Says you. I'm have a list of Warrior spam army under Kronos I want to try. 12 Deathspitter Warriors (plus 4 venom cannons) divided into two unit backed by a Primes hitting on 2s rerolling 1s sounds like a fun time to me.
I also just realised that the Shoot Again stratagem would work on them, so there's that.
Cauthon wrote: Am I reading this right? Tyrants and carnifex' can have two different bio cannons?
Says you can change one or both their kit with items from the bio cannons list and on the page that lists the bio cannons it just says you can't have multiples of the same one, so...yes?
Brand new Tyranid player here. I'm looking to get into 8th with Nids. I've picked up the codex and a variety of boxes. However, I'm overwhelemed at all of the options. I will primarily be up against Necrons, and a little bit of AM, orks and Tau. I heavily favour close combat over shooting so would be looking to build a list focused on getting up close and personal. I've just finised painting 2k points of orks so wouldn't mind leaning away from a horde heavy army if possible. I'm not worried about building a super competitive list either. Mostly for fun social games.
So far a I have: start collecting box (2016) 10 genestealers, tyrgon box x2, broodlord, hormagaunt box, venomthrope box.
I would also love to add a few carnifexs as I love the models.
Any tips on how to build what I have and what to grab next would be much appreciated! I
I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding Tyranids. I used to play them in 4th/5th, but I couldn't afford to invest hugely in them. Hence, I don't have a lot of the big, new monsters (Trygon, Tervigon, Exocrine etc,). Nor do I have that many little bugs.
Basically, I'm curious as to whether I can make a remotely viable army out of what I have.
I wasn't sure about which Hive Fleet to use - I was torn between Leviathan and Jormungandr.
I can change the loadouts on the Hive Tyrant, Carnifexes etc., but this is basically all the models I own (aside from a Hive Guard and Venomthrope which I'm unable to use).
Does this list look viable? If not, would it be possible to make a decent list with these models?
If the answer is 'no', that's fine. I can always swarm people with my Imperial Guard instead.
With all those Warriors Leviathan looks like a good choice, If you have a bunch of Guard, you might run GSC+ Nids with only a few new models, and GSC can run GSC+Nids+Guard.
If you find you like Nids you can fill in the gribblies numbers pretty easily. Good luck! And good hunting!
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Says you. I'm have a list of Warrior spam army under Kronos I want to try. 12 Deathspitter Warriors (plus 4 venom cannons) divided into two unit backed by a Primes hitting on 2s rerolling 1s sounds like a fun time to me.
I also just realised that the Shoot Again stratagem would work on them, so there's that.
I was thinking about this. How big were your warrior squads? Did you use them to synapse backfield artillery?
Ok, I'm a little confused fused on the tails now. For the trygons it's base 7 attacks with 3 Mon sytals. If you take more than 1 pair you get an extra attack. Also the tail reads like an extra attack that you can choose to use or not. So is the 7 attacks including all that or would it be 7+1+1 ; base +talons + tail ( of which 1 attack may be made with the tail bit doesn't have to.) Is this correct?
Dynas wrote: Ok, I'm a little confused fused on the tails now. For the trygons it's base 7 attacks with 3 Mon sytals. If you take more than 1 pair you get an extra attack. Also the tail reads like an extra attack that you can choose to use or not. So is the 7 attacks including all that or would it be 7+1+1 ; base +talons + tail ( of which 1 attack may be made with the tail bit doesn't have to.) Is this correct?
I believe thats how it currently works...the tail is extra now.
It is extra and it is optional, but you don’t get the extra attack if you don’t use the tail weapon. So it no longer “takes away” one of your base attacks, but it also doesn’t give you a free attack using your normal strength, AP and damage profile
Edit: just to clarify, the Trygon is base 6 attacks. So you get 7 because of the scything talons bonus, and the 8th dice you roll MUST be for your tail attack. I guess you could choose not to make that 8th attack, but I mean you’re not getting anything else. It’s not like the 8th attack can be with your scything talons
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Says you. I'm have a list of Warrior spam army under Kronos I want to try. 12 Deathspitter Warriors (plus 4 venom cannons) divided into two unit backed by a Primes hitting on 2s rerolling 1s sounds like a fun time to me.
I also just realised that the Shoot Again stratagem would work on them, so there's that.
I was thinking about this. How big were your warrior squads? Did you use them to synapse backfield artillery?
I have 16 warriors so two squads of 8. Traditionally my warrior squads have been mid-field synapse support, hovering somewhere just forward of the deployment area to spread the synapse web around where it needs to be.
Taking at least a few of them has been a habit since 4th and my lists feel weird without them. I didn't bring them last game I played and I didn't like it. I've not tested the list I have for them yet so it remains to be seen if it works.
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Says you. I'm have a list of Warrior spam army under Kronos I want to try. 12 Deathspitter Warriors (plus 4 venom cannons) divided into two unit backed by a Primes hitting on 2s rerolling 1s sounds like a fun time to me.
BS4+ says they hit on 3s with +1. In combat it's 2+ but I assume you meant shooting.
Traceoftoxin wrote: In general, I think nids are going to be way too fast for most armies. I was looking at situations and realized that if you charge a screening unit turn 1, there are two possible outcomes that are amazing. First, you surround it but don't kill it. It can't fall back, you got a ton of free movement and are immune to shooting. The second is much more insidious. This works best with GS or horms that have had onslaught cast on them. You charge, wipe the unit, activate overrun (1 CP), move+advance AGAIN (so 8+ 3d6 pick the highest), then spend 3 CP to activate them to fight again (They charged, they are eligible to activate), allowing you to pile in to units WELL within the enemy deployment zone. You should, pretty easily, be able to wrap up something to prevent enemy shooting you, and hopefully shut down a large amount of enemy firepower. I recognize that it is expensive at 4CP, and you're giving up the ability to swing on anything you pile into the second time, but, particularly with Horms, you could be spending 4 CP to give a huge portion of your army a full turn to avoid being shot. If you were facing IG for example, and you made a 24" charge with GS into a conscript screen... you could easily wipe out a 20 man squad, then get a full move into their lines and another set of pile in+consolidates.
Dear god, I think I just threw up a little. That's amazing if it actually works though. It does feel like it goes against the intended use of the stratagem though, given it explicitly states you can't get within 1".
Xenomancers wrote: My issue is that kronos is worthless for infantry. Well more specifically - troop options.
Says you. I'm have a list of Warrior spam army under Kronos I want to try. 12 Deathspitter Warriors (plus 4 venom cannons) divided into two unit backed by a Primes hitting on 2s rerolling 1s sounds like a fun time to me.
BS4+ says they hit on 3s with +1. In combat it's 2+ but I assume you meant shooting.
Nah, I thought they were BS3+ because I keep thinking GW would do the sensible thing an use the stat that comes first in a turn in the profile.
Traceoftoxin wrote: In general, I think nids are going to be way too fast for most armies. I was looking at situations and realized that if you charge a screening unit turn 1, there are two possible outcomes that are amazing. First, you surround it but don't kill it. It can't fall back, you got a ton of free movement and are immune to shooting. The second is much more insidious. This works best with GS or horms that have had onslaught cast on them. You charge, wipe the unit, activate overrun (1 CP), move+advance AGAIN (so 8+ 3d6 pick the highest), then spend 3 CP to activate them to fight again (They charged, they are eligible to activate), allowing you to pile in to units WELL within the enemy deployment zone. You should, pretty easily, be able to wrap up something to prevent enemy shooting you, and hopefully shut down a large amount of enemy firepower. I recognize that it is expensive at 4CP, and you're giving up the ability to swing on anything you pile into the second time, but, particularly with Horms, you could be spending 4 CP to give a huge portion of your army a full turn to avoid being shot. If you were facing IG for example, and you made a 24" charge with GS into a conscript screen... you could easily wipe out a 20 man squad, then get a full move into their lines and another set of pile in+consolidates.
Dear god, I think I just threw up a little. That's amazing if it actually works though. It does feel like it goes against the intended use of the stratagem though, given it explicitly states you can't get within 1".
It works and it isn't really that strecthed. That 1 cp stratagem has a limit, and to overcome it you are paying 3 more CPs.
pinecone77 wrote: With all those Warriors Leviathan looks like a good choice
Okay, that's fine.
Any suggestions regarding Warlord Traits and Relics? I was thinking that the Neurothrope would make the best Warlord (simple because it's likely to be the furthest from the action).
pinecone77 wrote: If you have a bunch of Guard, you might run GSC+ Nids with only a few new models, and GSC can run GSC+Nids+Guard.
Yeah, I might give that a go sometime. Especially since, a while back now, I got fed up with my potato-faced guardsmen and started giving some of them genestealer heads.
Im really glad to see people are having success with Leviathan and Kraken. I was personally looking at those two fleets and think they are probably the best 2. I know a lot of people like Jormugandr and Kronos, but I think that the cover bonus on Jormugandr is too limiting since you don't get it if you advance or charge.
Sure it might be good for gaunts, get a 5+ save but there is a lot of AP out there that will chew through that armor. You might as well get a guaranteed 6+++ FnP with leviathan. With the amount of Synapse creatures (even without taking warriors), its fairly easy to keep the UNIT withing 6" to ensure the survivability and basically 16.667% more wounds for your entire army.
As for Kraken, TraceofToxin demonstrated the effectiveness of speed. Movement and positioning wins games, not Firepower. If you can maneuver and dictate the board on your terms, then the opponent is playing a reactionary game.
The genestealers with Kraken our SOOOO FAST. Especially if you infestation node them right at the edge or your deployment zone. You can sneak at extra 6" out of that with the nodes, move 8, advance highest of 3d6 a good chance at a 6, charge 2d6; that's a potential 32 (6+8+6+12)" move; add another 14" if you take Swarmlord. And as mentioned do it all over again for 4 cp. 32+14+14=60" movement. (or say you roll 4 on advances, and 7 on charge) that's still 25" average(6+8+4+7), 37" (8+4 if you use the 4 CP stratagem), or 49" if you use swarmy to get another move and advance. You are easily going board edge to board edge, even if its long deployment.
I am curious about other peoples first game experiences with the various hive fleets and how they went.
Cauthon wrote: Am I reading this right? Tyrants and carnifex' can have two different bio cannons?
Says you can change one or both their kit with items from the bio cannons list and on the page that lists the bio cannons it just says you can't have multiples of the same one, so...yes?
Is that new?
This isnt a new option. Been a thing.
But now it's more potent thanks to the updates on the venom cannon/barbed strangler weapon profiles, costs, and strategem.
Just wanted to chime in and comment on the effectiveness of genestealers in conjunction with a swarmlord. Moving + advancing (highest of 3d6") + charge is insane with stealers. My craftworld got charged by two genestealers over the course of the game that were 30+ inches away. I had to laugh!... and then die.
tag8833 wrote: A few test games under my belt with the new codex.
#1: If using ITC Champs missions, don't run max squads. There is a secondary that gives opponents a bonus for killing a unit that starts with 20+ and double bonus for 30+ models. So run 19 Stealers, and 29 Gants.
#2: Acid Spray TFex is weird. I killed a stormraven with it, and lots of primaris marines. In all 3 games I was able to double shoot most of the game. Still, I feel like a 2nd Exocrine would be better.
#3: Genestealers staying in their nodes is really cool. I was able to null deploy by putting a few T8 beasties and a bunch of Chars behind them giving my opponent no good targets. I was Jormungandr, so I was really tanky against my opponent's alpha strike.
#4: Dakka Flyrant? I spent all 3 games charging him into combats that he failed to do much in. If feels like Keeping a set of MRC's is probably going to be worth it for me.
#5: Using Ravenors to deliver gribbles worked pretty well, but 30 Gants take up more space than you'd think. I thought I'd be able to do it with 3 Ravernors, but I strongly recommend 4 or 5.
#6: Genestealer Acid Maw mainly slowed down rolling. Didn't have a huge impact. Leaning towards skipping it in the future.
#7: I really like Neurothope with Catalyst. He rarely fails. He delivers a fair amount of mortal wounds via smite thanks to his reroll 1's. If you've got a Free HQ, take a Neurothrope.
1. Interesting note. Just played in an ITC but didn't use Champs missions. Had other ones do this didn't effect it
2. It is better, getting a extra d6 to attacks, but I find the version odd also. I feel its best as a backfield arty with its vastly improved and playable gun now. but I can see why just more exocrine would be better. I don't know the difference in points though.
3. Nodes seem kinda useless to me personally. and I have like 100 Genestealers. Rather have them come up in tunnels
4. Are you asking what is it or don't get why people use it? If its dakka, don't see a reason to ever charge it unless its into a land raider or some other vehicle to tie it up, but yea if hes dakka, hes not killing anything in melee
5. Good to know! that's my plan, Ravs or Trygon and deliver 30 devilgaunts in someones face
6. Yea, seems useless to use really
7. Yea, Neuro spam is a thing!
Dynas wrote: Im really glad to see people are having success with Leviathan and Kraken. I was personally looking at those two fleets and think they are probably the best 2. I know a lot of people like Jormugandr and Kronos, but I think that the cover bonus on Jormugandr is too limiting since you don't get it if you advance or charge.
Sure it might be good for gaunts, get a 5+ save but there is a lot of AP out there that will chew through that armor. You might as well get a guaranteed 6+++ FnP with leviathan. With the amount of Synapse creatures (even without taking warriors), its fairly easy to keep the UNIT withing 6" to ensure the survivability and basically 16.667% more wounds for your entire army.
As for Kraken, TraceofToxin demonstrated the effectiveness of speed. Movement and positioning wins games, not Firepower. If you can maneuver and dictate the board on your terms, then the opponent is playing a reactionary game.
The genestealers with Kraken our SOOOO FAST. Especially if you infestation node them right at the edge or your deployment zone. You can sneak at extra 6" out of that with the nodes, move 8, advance highest of 3d6 a good chance at a 6, charge 2d6; that's a potential 32 (6+8+6+12)" move; add another 14" if you take Swarmlord. And as mentioned do it all over again for 4 cp. 32+14+14=60" movement. (or say you roll 4 on advances, and 7 on charge) that's still 25" average(6+8+4+7), 37" (8+4 if you use the 4 CP stratagem), or 49" if you use swarmy to get another move and advance. You are easily going board edge to board edge, even if its long deployment.
I am curious about other peoples first game experiences with the various hive fleets and how they went.
I don't know whether or not your idea with the infestation nodes is working. You can just get them out of the nodes at the end of the movement phase. So your additional Movement does not work. It might work, when you use the extra movement stratagem, but it is a bit of a grey area.
The only reason nodes are good is they put genestealers in reserve so you can deep strike them onto a lurker for only the 40 points or whatever the lurker costs.
I don't know whether or not your idea with the infestation nodes is working. You can just get them out of the nodes at the end of the movement phase. So your additional Movement does not work. It might work, when you use the extra movement stratagem, but it is a bit of a grey area.
Ah, my mistake, so take 6" off. Probably just better to hide them behind some LoS blocking terrain then. Still, they can be very fast.
It's also good if you use Swarmlord's hive commander and Kraken trait and/or stratagem. You can use both to reach melee turn 1 without allowing them to get shot.
So hide 2 units on nodes. Use a lictor and one CP to effectively deep strike one unit, and use the Swarmlord and 1 CP to move and double advance another unit.
Dynas wrote: You can sneak at extra 6" out of that with the nodes, move 8, advance highest of 3d6 a good chance at a 6, charge 2d6; that's a potential 32 (6+8+6+12)" move; add another 14" if you take Swarmlord. And as mentioned do it all over again for 4 cp. 32+14+14=60" movement. (or say you roll 4 on advances, and 7 on charge) that's still 25" average(6+8+4+7), 37" (8+4 if you use the 4 CP stratagem), or 49" if you use swarmy to get another move and advance. You are easily going board edge to board edge, even if its long deployment.
I am curious about other peoples first game experiences with the various hive fleets and how they went.
Sadly, nodes are end of movement phase, so you're giving up 2+d6 of movement to avoid being on the board at the start. But if you have Swarmlord, I think it's a free way to avoid getting alpha struck.
Xenomancers wrote: The only reason nodes are good is they put genestealers in reserve so you can deep strike them onto a lurker for only the 40 points or whatever the lurker costs.
45 and it's called Lictor, but that's not the intended use for the nodes.
They are there to counter charge with stealers, for example when you have a greentide coming at you. Instead of trying to outcharge a greentide, you put a line of termagants 11" in front of you nodes. After the termagants absorb the assault, the stealers spawn and take out the boyz.
I know that everyone here is convinced that the only list existing is a generic AM army which will shoot you from the other side of the table while protecting itself with chaff units, but actually one 30% or so of the lists out there look vaguely like that. There will be many times where we are the ones getting assaulted. Maybe not at the top talbes (for now).
Cauthon wrote: Am I reading this right? Tyrants and carnifex' can have two different bio cannons?
Says you can change one or both their kit with items from the bio cannons list and on the page that lists the bio cannons it just says you can't have multiples of the same one, so...yes?
Is that new?
This isnt a new option. Been a thing.
But now it's more potent thanks to the updates on the venom cannon/barbed strangler weapon profiles, costs, and strategem.
Before you could not take more than one cannon (so stranglethorn OR heavy venom).
Now its "A model can not be armed with more than one of these weapons."
In my opinion its the same as the previous formulation, because I read it like "... one of these (both) weapons."
At best you could argue if the weapon type (cannon) or the weapon itself is meant. For me its not that clear.
And I had a 1500 points match against Orks today. Matched Play, Maelstrom of war, Cleanse and Capture.
Neither me nor my opponent went competitive. I took Kraken with lot of Warriors, some Hormagaunts and neurothropes for HQ and support. He took Green Tide with little fire support.
I stopped his rush with my 10 man squads of hormagaunts, then countercharged with massive amounts of warriors (deathspitter, scything talons). Kraken gave me 'Hit and Run' and I fell back, shot and charged most of the time while some poor gribbles had to eat the overwatch.
It was a slaughter, and he called it turn 3.
The retreat and come back into melee is very interesting, if you have units which can do both. The mobility is really amazing for objective games!
Next i will try out Carnifexes with full of half range loadout, to run forward, shoot and then jump into melee. Repeat until enemy dead.
Not the best tactics maybe, but i think Kraken is my favorite playstyle. I will test some more competitive lists next.
Xenomancers wrote: The only reason nodes are good is they put genestealers in reserve so you can deep strike them onto a lurker for only the 40 points or whatever the lurker costs.
45 and it's called Lictor, but that's not the intended use for the nodes.
They are there to counter charge with stealers, for example when you have a greentide coming at you. Instead of trying to outcharge a greentide, you put a line of termagants 11" in front of you nodes. After the termagants absorb the assault, the stealers spawn and take out the boyz.
I know that everyone here is convinced that the only list existing is a generic AM army which will shoot you from the other side of the table while protecting itself with chaff units, but actually one 30% or so of the lists out there look vaguely like that. There will be many times where we are the ones getting assaulted. Maybe not at the top talbes (for now).
Funny. As described i did something similar, but with warriors, because of the shooting and the ability to split the range fire and melee on different units.
Xenomancers wrote: The only reason nodes are good is they put genestealers in reserve so you can deep strike them onto a lurker for only the 40 points or whatever the lurker costs.
45 and it's called Lictor, but that's not the intended use for the nodes.
They are there to counter charge with stealers, for example when you have a greentide coming at you. Instead of trying to outcharge a greentide, you put a line of termagants 11" in front of you nodes. After the termagants absorb the assault, the stealers spawn and take out the boyz.
I know that everyone here is convinced that the only list existing is a generic AM army which will shoot you from the other side of the table while protecting itself with chaff units, but actually one 30% or so of the lists out there look vaguely like that. There will be many times where we are the ones getting assaulted. Maybe not at the top talbes (for now).
You could do something like that I suppose. It's a free rule that gives versatility BUT - I am pretty much always going to be alpha striking with genes.
Razerous wrote: Any word of if we have to pay points for mines spawned by Biovores, Sporecysts or the Mine Stratagem?
The codex says you do not need to pay for mines spawned by units. It does not mention strategems. So biovore and sporecyst mines are free but the ones for the 3CP strategem are not. Which is a shame because now the strategem is useless for battleforged play.
BaconCatBug wrote: Termagants or Ripper Swarms for bubblewrap? If Termagants, all Fleshborer or a 1:2 mix of Devourer:Fleshborer?
Depends on what you want to screen your units from.
I tend to termagants, because they can be spread out wide and screen more stuff better than rippers.
In addition they dont crumble that fast if shot with high dmg weapons. The screen will suffer less from shooting with termagants, while the enemy will waste multidmg shots entirely on them.
pinecone77 wrote: With all those Warriors Leviathan looks like a good choice
Okay, that's fine.
Any suggestions regarding Warlord Traits and Relics? I was thinking that the Neurothrope would make the best Warlord (simple because it's likely to be the furthest from the action).
pinecone77 wrote: If you have a bunch of Guard, you might run GSC+ Nids with only a few new models, and GSC can run GSC+Nids+Guard.
Yeah, I might give that a go sometime. Especially since, a while back now, I got fed up with my potato-faced guardsmen and started giving some of them genestealer heads.
Does the list look okay though? I mean, I haven't played nids since 5th so I'm a little behind on list building and general tactics for their stuff.
I'm guessing that this list is "all the models" It'll do for casual...Moar Stealers! is almost always a way to buff a list.
I say give it a play or two, then decide about what to add...you could go to 2000 just by adding in some GSC Leman Russ, and Autogun/Lasgun infantry( corrupted PDF), as long as you can put a Magus, or Primus or the like in for HQ.
Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick
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vipoid wrote: Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?
As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions
SO I just thought of a funny way to kill Guilliman/montarion/other big Nastys.
Send Termigants into melee which are supported with Tervigon, when they get slaughtered in fight phase use Caustaic Blood stratagem to deal mortal wounds. Then have Tervigon respawn upto 10 dead gaunts. Then use Kraken to breakoff, shoot again (thinging a 10/20 or 15/15 split of fleshborer/devil), then charge back into combat with the big nasty. You get to fight first. When he fights back, rinse and repeat.
Let Rowboat bathe in our acidic blood until he melts in agony. LOL
Kraken does not allow the unit to shoot after falling back. It only allows it to charge. This is why a flyrant is extra good with kraken, thanks to the fly keyword.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick
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vipoid wrote: Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?
As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions
Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.
In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.
Dynas wrote: SO I just thought of a funny way to kill Guilliman/montarion/other big Nastys.
Send Termigants into melee which are supported with Tervigon, when they get slaughtered in fight phase use Caustaic Blood stratagem to deal mortal wounds. Then have Tervigon respawn upto 10 dead gaunts. Then use Kraken to breakoff, shoot again (thinging a 10/20 or 15/15 split of fleshborer/devil), then charge back into combat with the big nasty. You get to fight first. When he fights back, rinse and repeat.
Let Rowboat bathe in our acidic blood until he melts in agony. LOL
Besides the above reason, this is never going to work still for many reasons
Bobby can fall back and shoot at something else.
The tervigon is going to be dead before it gets there to do anything nasty with the amount of firepower bobby/morty can bring (and chances are magnus will have a fire raptor)
Magnus and morty can both fly, so again they don't care and they move far faster.
Magnus can 1 turn charge and kill your Tervigon.
The respawn don't be good as you don't get devilgaunts, only up to 10 normal ones.
Its a good strat vs other melee infantry, but vs lord of wars its useless
Zimko wrote: Kraken does not allow the unit to shoot after falling back. It only allows it to charge. This is why a flyrant is extra good with kraken, thanks to the fly keyword.
You fall back in movement phase. Then shooting phase, then charge and fight.
The way its worded is to point out that you can still charge even though you fellback, b/c normally you can't.
Pretty sure you can fall back, shoot your guns, charge back in.
Zimko wrote: Kraken does not allow the unit to shoot after falling back. It only allows it to charge. This is why a flyrant is extra good with kraken, thanks to the fly keyword.
You fall back in movement phase. Then shooting phase, then charge and fight.
The way its worded is to point out that you can still charge even though you fellback, b/c normally you can't.
Pretty sure you can fall back, shoot your guns, charge back in.
Nope. The fallback rules say that the unit can not shoot or charge the turn that they fallback. The kraken rule allows you to charge but it does not say anything about shooting. The fly keyword allows units to shoot after falling back but it does not allow them to charge. A kraken flyrant gives you the best of both. Devgaunts would only be able to charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are many rules that allow units to shoot after falling back. Space Marines for example can do so with a -1 to hit penalty.
Dynas wrote: SO I just thought of a funny way to kill Guilliman/montarion/other big Nastys.
Send Termigants into melee which are supported with Tervigon, when they get slaughtered in fight phase use Caustaic Blood stratagem to deal mortal wounds. Then have Tervigon respawn upto 10 dead gaunts. Then use Kraken to breakoff, shoot again (thinging a 10/20 or 15/15 split of fleshborer/devil), then charge back into combat with the big nasty. You get to fight first. When he fights back, rinse and repeat.
Let Rowboat bathe in our acidic blood until he melts in agony. LOL
Besides the above reason, this is never going to work still for many reasons
Bobby can fall back and shoot at something else.
The tervigon is going to be dead before it gets there to do anything nasty with the amount of firepower bobby/morty can bring (and chances are magnus will have a fire raptor)
Magnus and morty can both fly, so again they don't care and they move far faster.
Magnus can 1 turn charge and kill your Tervigon.
The respawn don't be good as you don't get devilgaunts, only up to 10 normal ones.
Its a good strat vs other melee infantry, but vs lord of wars its useless
Perhaps, their are WL/RElics that can make the Tervigon more viable. If you have other big baddies on the table they may shoot those instead. HT, swarmy, etc...
I know you can only respawn the fleshborers, that is why you go 10/20 or 15/15 mix in the unit. Take away the Fleshborer ones only.
I'm thinking a nice gem for Kraken is throwing chameleon on a tervigon supporting a bunch of gants. With the likely venomthropes or malanthropes nearby things that normally chew it to bits are hitting at -2. Could breathe life into an otherwise overpriced HQ.
It's going to be grand the first time I play againt my eldar pal. He tried to quicken and I tell he he has to take it on 1 dice. ROFL!!! Kronos FTW.
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StarHunter25 wrote: I'm thinking a nice gem for Kraken is throwing chameleon on a tervigon supporting a bunch of gants. With the likely venomthropes or malanthropes nearby things that normally chew it to bits are hitting at -2. Could breathe life into an otherwise overpriced HQ.
Tervigone is just straight trash. I'm pretty upset about this unit. I have 2 of them and they are freaking useless - and there is no way I can convert them into tyranofex - I would stab myself at somepoint i am sure - too many spikes.
Neurothropes look like our go to psykers. Brood lords are nice. Especially if your running genestealers. But if you just want to pile in a bunch of smite spam on a durable platform neurothropes might be the best platform for their points in the game.
Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them? I'm thinking about a unit of 4 with a nuerothrope as HQ in their detachment. I'm thinking that the zoans are going to soak a lot of firepower. Probably better to have them get shot at than any other unit. They have 3++ saves. The first time you use their smite and do 2d3 mortals I think you will have their attention.
Lance845 wrote: Neurothropes look like our go to psykers. Brood lords are nice. Especially if your running genestealers. But if you just want to pile in a bunch of smite spam on a durable platform neurothropes might be the best platform for their points in the game.
They are still 70 points for a single smite a turn. It is a great and versatile unit, but for pure smite-spam 30 point malefic lords still reigns supreme. At least until they get nerfed in chapter approved.
Xenomancers wrote: Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them? I'm thinking about a unit of 4 with a nuerothrope as HQ in their detachment. I'm thinking that the zoans are going to soak a lot of firepower. Probably better to have them get shot at than any other unit. They have 3++ saves. The first time you use their smite and do 2d3 mortals I think you will have their attention.
Surely 3 Neuronthropes for approx the same cost as Neuro + 4 Zoan's.
Add in a screen and you've got much more durable psykers and approx the same offensive power.
Xenomancers wrote: Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them? I'm thinking about a unit of 4 with a nuerothrope as HQ in their detachment. I'm thinking that the zoans are going to soak a lot of firepower. Probably better to have them get shot at than any other unit. They have 3++ saves. The first time you use their smite and do 2d3 mortals I think you will have their attention.
I dont think a unit of 4 will have 4 for long. People know what they do and a 3++ is nice but i have had individual zoans die fairly quickly because they are only 3w and 4t. Dont expect the 3++ to save them. In about 6-7 games ahere i had 1 neuro and 3 zoan in a unit pre codex not once did the neuro ever get to heal a zoan. 3 damage came too quickly and models dropped before i got the chance.
Maybe thats just my experience with them. Maybe my meta just knows better. But i would spend the points on zoans grabbing more neurothropes personally.
Xenomancers wrote: It's going to be grand the first time I play againt my eldar pal. He tried to quicken and I tell he he has to take it on 1 dice. ROFL!!! Kronos FTW.
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StarHunter25 wrote: I'm thinking a nice gem for Kraken is throwing chameleon on a tervigon supporting a bunch of gants. With the likely venomthropes or malanthropes nearby things that normally chew it to bits are hitting at -2. Could breathe life into an otherwise overpriced HQ.
Tervigone is just straight trash. I'm pretty upset about this unit. I have 2 of them and they are freaking useless - and there is no way I can convert them into tyranofex - I would stab myself at somepoint i am sure - too many spikes.
I got the arms on mine magnatized. Might be able to give him the rupture cannon with the big belly and just in friendly games say he is a Tfex.
Tervigone is just straight trash. I'm pretty upset about this unit. I have 2 of them and they are freaking useless - and there is no way I can convert them into tyranofex - I would stab myself at somepoint i am sure - too many spikes.
Might just be a matter of playstyle incompatibility. I haven't been able to get a game with the new codex just yet, but most of my lists in 8th so far have had 2 Tervigons + 90 Fleshborer Termagants as the core foundation with various gunbeasts acting in support (pre-codex mostly Hive Guard, Biovores, and Exocrines). It is a much less aggressive list style than normal 'stealer shock but it also hasn't been bothered by opposing chaff either.
Xenomancers wrote: Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them? I'm thinking about a unit of 4 with a nuerothrope as HQ in their detachment. I'm thinking that the zoans are going to soak a lot of firepower. Probably better to have them get shot at than any other unit. They have 3++ saves. The first time you use their smite and do 2d3 mortals I think you will have their attention.
I liked them before in the index for mid-field synapse support, but the Neurothrope as a standalone is probably more optimal simply because they are cheaper per smite (2 Neurothropes is cheaper than a brood of 4 Zoanthropes) automatically know a second power, and cannot be targeted due to the character rules. That said, I did notice that the Zoanthrope's Warp Blast rule now also extends the range of their Smite to 24'' instead of the default 18'' (Neurothrope didn't get that) which is rather nice and only needing one psychic test to get 2D3 damage is more efficient for command point purposes.They also have the dubious distinction of not exploding on a perils unless the last model goes down so they are a degree safer too...
Tyranids seem to have some of the cheapest psykers around, per cast. It's not like Tyrants are paying much for their 2 powers either. But they just don't have that many powers that you particularly want to cast. Compare to Eldar who pay 50 points per Farseer power and ~40 points per Warlock power, but then have easily 6 or 7 powers that you could find a use for every turn.
I'm not all that impressed with the Neurothrope because I feel like I'm going to have plenty of psykers as-is, but at the same time it's too expensive for pure Smite spam. Like, a Tyrant does basically everything a Neurothrope and a Carnifex do, costs less than both combined, moves much faster, and is somewhere between 50% and 100% more durable than the Carnifex depending on what you're getting shot with. It's true that the Neurothrope provides Character synapse, but it's hard to kill multiple Tyrants, and at least for now you can also bring a Malanthrope which gives synapse and protects your other stuff too.
I like fielding one because it gives me a non-targetable form of synapse. Maybe 1 per battalion at most.
I am going with 2 because they're our cheapest HQ, and they're a reliable way to have catalyst+onslaught on platforms that aren't likely to get killed. They can throw out a buff, smite something, provide synapse and fill an HQ slot for cheap. With Kraken they move fast enough to keep up with the swarm, since they should always be advancing.
Malanthrope + Neurothropes gives you enough synapse to cover a huge portion of the board, the -1 to hit and a source of catalyst/onslaught that should always have range to the units that need it.
Comparatively
Broodlords hit like a freight train and can carry a buff, but they're only one cast, pretty fragile in CC and cost SIX points less than a Trygon. If Broodlords were 130 or under I'd consider running them competitively.
Tyrants are awesome, but expensive and big targets. Swarmlord has an amazing bespoke ability, but is massively expensive (Especially after you pay for his pod or guard), and because of his ability, an even bigger target.
More than one Malanthrope feels like wasted points.
Tervigons are useless trash.
Primes are useless trash.
OOE is too expensive to use outside of a list built entirely around him.
So, to fill our 3-5 HQ slots, either you spam flyrants, or you do 2-3 flyrants and the rest neurothropes.
Lance845 wrote: Neurothropes look like our go to psykers. Brood lords are nice. Especially if your running genestealers. But if you just want to pile in a bunch of smite spam on a durable platform neurothropes might be the best platform for their points in the game.
They are still 70 points for a single smite a turn. It is a great and versatile unit, but for pure smite-spam 30 point malefic lords still reigns supreme. At least until they get nerfed in chapter approved.
Thats a little disingenuous. Its 70 points for a 5w 4t 3++ character that knows smite +1, can cast 2, and deny 1, while providing synapse and shadow. And heals itself with its smite. The maleific lord is -1w -1t -1powers manifested and +1 powers known without providing buff debuff auras for the army and doesnt heal itself.
Lance845 wrote: Neurothropes look like our go to psykers. Brood lords are nice. Especially if your running genestealers. But if you just want to pile in a bunch of smite spam on a durable platform neurothropes might be the best platform for their points in the game.
They are still 70 points for a single smite a turn. It is a great and versatile unit, but for pure smite-spam 30 point malefic lords still reigns supreme. At least until they get nerfed in chapter approved.
Thats a little disingenuous. Its 70 points for a 5w 4t 3++ character that knows smite +1, can cast 2, and deny 1, while providing synapse and shadow. And heals itself with its smite. The maleific lord is -1w -1t -1powers manifested and +1 powers known without providing buff debuff auras for the army and doesnt heal itself.
An extra 40 points is a steal.
I wouldn't say 40 points is a steal.
I'd rather have malefic lords than neurothropes as the game currently sits.
That doesn't mean neurothropes aren't great units.
Not to sound like a dick, just that if you don't think Malefic lords/Primaris psykers are top 5 units in the game right now, you don't really have any business discussing competitive 40k.
I'm willing to revisit the "Warriors are awesome" discussion.
Bone swords don't quite qualify as game changing, but they are definitely a big deal. My concern is now keeping them alive, their defense is low for what they do.
Xenomancers wrote: Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them?
None. Tried 2x4 in a casual list, opponent brought 2 Culexus Assassins and had the first turn. Some light shooting from an IK and the Culexes caused casualties in both units, and then they were useless. Will never take Zoanthropes again. They suffer from the same stupid bundle rules as Venomthropes.
- Guys, the management say Thropes are from now on sold in 3's and therefore must be 3-6 per unit, so we have to come up with some rules. Any ideas?
- Yeah, make it really suck to have 3 models so they will want to buy another bundle and get 1337 ROOLZ for 4+ models!!!
- That's great!
What do people think of gorgon it seems Theres nothing majorly wrong with it for a 70/80+% melee list gak even the shooty nids are not exactly bad in cc. The reroll of 1's to wound is good if useing lots of toxin, the chance to roll that 6 is good.
Sure it may not be "competitive" but its fluffy and theamed to the hive.
Though saying that an out there list with gargs dropping in with a tyrant and raveners/trygon popping up with stealers in tow and a spod full of pyrovores to clear the chaff or a large unit of warriors thats a lot of in your face t1 or hold them for t2 or later. All the while the bigger beasties and gun beasts deploy and do there thing from the start.
On a different note can a prime join a warrior squad in a spod? Wording seems ambiguous.
Also im assuming the endless swarm and call the brood cost reserve points. Y/n
Xenomancers wrote: Talk to me about Zoanthropes people. What success have you been having with them?
None. Tried 2x4 in a casual list, opponent brought 2 Culexus Assassins and had the first turn. Some light shooting from an IK and the Culexes caused casualties in both units, and then they were useless. Will never take Zoanthropes again. They suffer from the same stupid bundle rules as Venomthropes.
- Guys, the management say Thropes are from now on sold in 3's and therefore must be 3-6 per unit, so we have to come up with some rules. Any ideas?
- Yeah, make it really suck to have 3 models so they will want to buy another bundle and get 1337 ROOLZ for 4+ models!!!
- That's great!
Agreed.
Skullhammer wrote: What do people think of gorgon it seems Theres nothing majorly wrong with it for a 70/80+% melee list gak even the shooty nids are not exactly bad in cc. The reroll of 1's to wound is good if useing lots of toxin, the chance to roll that 6 is good.
Sure it may not be "competitive" but its fluffy and theamed to the hive.
Though saying that an out there list with gargs dropping in with a tyrant and raveners/trygon popping up with stealers in tow and a spod full of pyrovores to clear the chaff or a large unit of warriors thats a lot of in your face t1 or hold them for t2 or later. All the while the bigger beasties and gun beasts deploy and do there thing from the start.
On a different note can a prime join a warrior squad in a spod? Wording seems ambiguous.
Also im assuming the endless swarm and call the brood cost reserve points. Y/n
The trait, relic and stratagem are all just wholly mediocre.
There is nothing ambiguous about it at all.
"When you set up a Tyrannocyte
in its hive ship, you can also set up a <HIVE FLEET>
INFANTRY unit of up to 20 models or a <HIVE FLEET>
MONSTER with aWounds characteristic of 14 or
less inside it (this cannot be another Tyrannocyte or
a Sporocyst)."
None. Tried 2x4 in a casual list, opponent brought 2 Culexus Assassins and had the first turn.
Have to question how casual the match was if your opponent brought two of a very niche anti-psyker model against someone wanting to try out their psykers...
They suffer from the same stupid bundle rules as Venomthropes.
- Guys, the management say Thropes are from now on sold in 3's and therefore must be 3-6 per unit, so we have to come up with some rules. Any ideas? - Yeah, make it really suck to have 3 models so they will want to buy another bundle and get 1337 ROOLZ for 4+ models!!! - That's great!
To be fair, most of our infantry have such rules for larger than minimum units (Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Termagants, Gargoyles, aformentioned Venomthropes and Zoeys). The only ones that don't are the Warrior-chassis critters and the 'vores (and in the latter case they don't go above 3 models anyway).
I actually am curious about how well a brood of Venomthropes might do in a Jormungandr list. They are infantry so they qualify for Jormungandr's stratagem deployment wereas Malanthropes cannot due to being monsters. It could be nasty to have a brood pop up with actual combat beasts, charge in alongside to employ their melee stats and miasma ability, and then have the -1 to hit bubble in place for friendly models when the opponent inevitably backs away.
Traceoftoxin wrote: In general, I think nids are going to be way too fast for most armies. I was looking at situations and realized that if you charge a screening unit turn 1, there are two possible outcomes that are amazing. First, you surround it but don't kill it. It can't fall back, you got a ton of free movement and are immune to shooting. The second is much more insidious. This works best with GS or horms that have had onslaught cast on them. You charge, wipe the unit, activate overrun (1 CP), move+advance AGAIN (so 8+ 3d6 pick the highest), then spend 3 CP to activate them to fight again (They charged, they are eligible to activate), allowing you to pile in to units WELL within the enemy deployment zone. You should, pretty easily, be able to wrap up something to prevent enemy shooting you, and hopefully shut down a large amount of enemy firepower. I recognize that it is expensive at 4CP, and you're giving up the ability to swing on anything you pile into the second time, but, particularly with Horms, you could be spending 4 CP to give a huge portion of your army a full turn to avoid being shot. If you were facing IG for example, and you made a 24" charge with GS into a conscript screen... you could easily wipe out a 20 man squad, then get a full move into their lines and another set of pile in+consolidates.
Dear god, I think I just threw up a little. That's amazing if it actually works though. It does feel like it goes against the intended use of the stratagem though, given it explicitly states you can't get within 1".
It's very CP intensive just to tie up a lot of units and not actually swing on them (since unless they were within 12" when you declared the initial charge, you couldn't have declared them as a target of your charge), but it absolutely could be a game-changer. Whether it's intended or not, GW would have to FAQ it to not work like that, as literally that is how combat works, assuming you wipe the unit on the turn that you charge and use the 1 CP stratagem. I personally think that it's a case of GW not realizing that people could combo stratagems like that, but it could be game-changing
Lance845 wrote: Neurothropes look like our go to psykers. Brood lords are nice. Especially if your running genestealers. But if you just want to pile in a bunch of smite spam on a durable platform neurothropes might be the best platform for their points in the game.
They are still 70 points for a single smite a turn. It is a great and versatile unit, but for pure smite-spam 30 point malefic lords still reigns supreme. At least until they get nerfed in chapter approved.
Casting 2 powers is big. I think that's what you need to fully take advantage of them. Tyranids have a lot of really good powers, and being able to do 6 smites + 6 Tyranid powers is rarely wasted.
Casting 2 powers is big. I think that's what you need to fully take advantage of them. Tyranids have a lot of really good powers, and being able to do 6 smites + 6 Tyranid powers is rarely wasted.
This would absolutely be wasted. You only use Dominion if you're worried that you'll have a swarm unit more than 12" from synapse or you need to avoid IB on a unit more than 24" from synapse. Most turns you will have no need for this. Most games you will have no need for this. Paroxysm does nothing in many games and is useful for maybe 1 turn in others. Onslaught is good but is again something that you're only really excited to cast 1 or 2 times per game. Plus it's often the case that when you want to cast Onslaught on turn 1 you have psykers who aren't actually in Smite range anyway or who would be hitting trash units with it. You really only have that much use for 3 powers every turn (Catalyst, Horror, Scream) in addition to Smite, and then you'd be willing to forgo a Smite cast to use Onslaught when you need it.
Also guys, about neurothropes, they reroll 1s on psychic tests. Let's not underestimate how good that is for smite or getting a key onslaught off without using CP.
How do you guys model your Tyrants with Devourers? Do you use the FW models? I am going to be snipping off arms or just playing with "counts-as" until i figure this out. Also winged tyrants only have 2 slots on each side, and 1 of those slots is consumed by my wings.
Dynas wrote: SO I just thought of a funny way to kill Guilliman/montarion/other big Nastys.
Send Termigants into melee which are supported with Tervigon, when they get slaughtered in fight phase use Caustaic Blood stratagem to deal mortal wounds. Then have Tervigon respawn upto 10 dead gaunts. Then use Kraken to breakoff, shoot again (thinging a 10/20 or 15/15 split of fleshborer/devil), then charge back into combat with the big nasty. You get to fight first. When he fights back, rinse and repeat.
Let Rowboat bathe in our acidic blood until he melts in agony. LOL
No need for the whole shooting part (and I don't know how you'd do that) But Caustic Blood+Smite is "good enough" and Tervigons can Smite.
Zimko wrote: Also guys, about neurothropes, they reroll 1s on psychic tests. Let's not underestimate how good that is for smite or getting a key onslaught off without using CP.
Neurothropes are amazing. They're one of the best things in our codex.
But Malefic lords are better.
Neurothropes are not a spammable unit. 1-2 is all you should need to supplement your tyrants. If you elect to run without Tyrants, you should have a broodlord or two, which covers the 3 or so psychic powers you should expect to need on the regular.
As was noted, dominion and paroxysm are both pretty weak spells. With 24" for IB, and a pretty middling penalty outside of it, I can't imagine myself giving up smite for it outside of a very limited number of rare instances in which I'm already probably losing. Paroxysm is... not great. If it completely overruled striking first rather than breaking even with it, then it would have some very nice use to stop charging unit from swinging first. As it is, if a unit charges you with paroxysm, it will still swing first because the activating player chooses which units to activate first from the non-ASF group. There are a handful of situations where it will be useful, but in general, it's a super situational ability that will see limited play.
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Marmatag wrote: How do you guys model your Tyrants with Devourers? Do you use the FW models? I am going to be snipping off arms or just playing with "counts-as" until i figure this out. Also winged tyrants only have 2 slots on each side, and 1 of those slots is consumed by my wings.
I converted some beefier devourers out of crushing claws and 3x termagant devourers per arm on one, and fleshborer hives on the other. I call the feet monstrous rending claws. If I want to go 4x devourers, I just say the giant gun arms I have are combined pairs of devourers.
Dionysodorus wrote: Tyranids seem to have some of the cheapest psykers around, per cast. It's not like Tyrants are paying much for their 2 powers either. But they just don't have that many powers that you particularly want to cast. Compare to Eldar who pay 50 points per Farseer power and ~40 points per Warlock power, but then have easily 6 or 7 powers that you could find a use for every turn.
I'm not all that impressed with the Neurothrope because I feel like I'm going to have plenty of psykers as-is, but at the same time it's too expensive for pure Smite spam. Like, a Tyrant does basically everything a Neurothrope and a Carnifex do, costs less than both combined, moves much faster, and is somewhere between 50% and 100% more durable than the Carnifex depending on what you're getting shot with. It's true that the Neurothrope provides Character synapse, but it's hard to kill multiple Tyrants, and at least for now you can also bring a Malanthrope which gives synapse and protects your other stuff too.
dont tell this guy that Astro paths cost 15points, sure they roll on 1d for smite but nothing else. 6 of them for each power and a primaries psyker at 40 points is 2 vanguard detachments for a cool 170 points
I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First list is my current list. Second list opts to drop a Trygon, 1 termagant devourer and Neurothrope to get a brigade, netting me an extra 3 CP. I pick up a lictor to allow me to pheromone trail 1 unit of GS in place of the lost Trygon, the rest is cheapest-in-slot options. That being said, I don't think those units are actually terrible. Pyrovores moving 5" is pretty bad, but they get 3d6 pick the highest movement, and their flamer is 10" assault, so they should be threatening ~20". Spores are spores. Biovores give me a tiny bit of MW generation, but also the ability to try to generate more spores to get in the way. The second list also is a tiny bit more flexible with the GS, allowing me to choose on the spot if I want to use the node or the lictor. But, I give up a trygon, which hurts my MC saturation. I give up a Neurothrope, which weakens my SITW coverage, gives up my guaranteed onslaught from the start, and a smite battery. Alternatively I could drop the malanthrope, but I think -1 to hit will be too important vs shooting heavy armies. Against marines it reduces incoming damage by 25%, and against IG by 25-33%. That's a huge damage reduction.
Thoughts?
Insectum7 wrote: I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First time outing with the codex went pretty well
I'm amazed someone let you move the super-smite battery so that Guilleman was the closest model.
None. Tried 2x4 in a casual list, opponent brought 2 Culexus Assassins and had the first turn.
Have to question how casual the match was if your opponent brought two of a very niche anti-psyker model against someone wanting to try out their psykers...
We don't tailor lists around here, he had no idea what I would bring and I'm usually light on psykers. He just brought an all-comers Space Wolf list that he likes (cc Dreadnought spam with some psyker backup and a Knight).
Traceoftoxin wrote: Got a good sized tournament this weekend (Probably 16-32 people, including some of the top players in New England)
Got two list ideas-
[spoiler]Battalion - Kraken
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Psychic Scream, Paroxysm (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, never suffers penalty to hit trait)
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope
I like this list. But wouldn't it be better to shave off 10 Devilgants to put Adrenal Glands on both Hormagaunts and the Flyrants? You could even afford Toxin Sacs on the Flyrants.
First list is my current list. Second list opts to drop a Trygon, 1 termagant devourer and Neurothrope to get a brigade, netting me an extra 3 CP. I pick up a lictor to allow me to pheromone trail 1 unit of GS in place of the lost Trygon, the rest is cheapest-in-slot options. That being said, I don't think those units are actually terrible. Pyrovores moving 5" is pretty bad, but they get 3d6 pick the highest movement, and their flamer is 10" assault, so they should be threatening ~20". Spores are spores. Biovores give me a tiny bit of MW generation, but also the ability to try to generate more spores to get in the way. The second list also is a tiny bit more flexible with the GS, allowing me to choose on the spot if I want to use the node or the lictor. But, I give up a trygon, which hurts my MC saturation. I give up a Neurothrope, which weakens my SITW coverage, gives up my guaranteed onslaught from the start, and a smite battery. Alternatively I could drop the malanthrope, but I think -1 to hit will be too important vs shooting heavy armies. Against marines it reduces incoming damage by 25%, and against IG by 25-33%. That's a huge damage reduction.
Thoughts?
Insectum7 wrote: I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First time outing with the codex went pretty well
I'm amazed someone let you move the super-smite battery so that Guilleman was the closest model.
That first list is very elegant. I guess you'll have to consider how much mischef 3 extra CP will let you get. I think either is able to win, but list 1 is easier to play,,,so there is that.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick
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vipoid wrote: Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?
As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions
Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.
In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.
Actually a Crone's Tentaclids deal 1.73 wounds, while the HVC of the Harpy do 1.78 wounds. And you should also factor in the bomb drop of the Harpy
If you include everything - even the CC attacks - the results are the following:
Hard to hit Flyer with T6 3+:
Hive Crone: 4.47 wounds
Harpy: 4.17 wounds
Hard to hit Flyer with T7 3+:
Hive Crone: 3.87 wounds
Harpy: 3.2 wounds
So the Crone is slightly better against hard to hit targets, but not by much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And btw the Tyrannofex with Acid Spray is very good against flyers, even if he is walking:
2D6 Spray
hard to hit, T6 3+:
4.67 wounds
hard to hit, T7 3+:
3.5 wounds
4D6 Spray obviously double the amount. And the Stinger Salvo is not factored in yet. However, the T-Fex has a degrading S value on the Spray, so it will get worse.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?
As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions
Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.
In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.
Actually a Crone's Tentaclids deal 1.73 wounds, while the HVC of the Harpy do 1.78 wounds. And you should also factor in the bomb drop of the Harpy
Hmm no, my math says:
4 tentaclids 2 hits at S5 you wound on 5+ (0,33) at no AP you get saved on 3+ (0,33)
2*0,33*0,33= 0,218 To this you add the shock damage:
2 hits, every hit inflicts 0,66 mortal wounds for a toal of 1,32 wounds, which added to 0,218 totals about 1,5
The HVC:
4 shots 2 hits at S9 it wounds on 3+ (0,66) at AP-2 you get saved at 5+ (0,66) 3 damage for each unsaved wound
2*0,66*0,66*3= 2,6
Also, i only accounted for the ranged threats. Spore drop is not a ranged threat.
Boneswords + toxin sacs make for some horrendous melee capability if a prime is buffing.
9 bonesword warriors (even if you arent allowing double bonesword for 5 attacks each) puts out 36 attacks, hitting on 2, poisoning on 4+ for 2dmg a pop and -2 armor with the strat, and they are cheap. 28 points apiece or 36 with deathspitters.
If you take zoans and dakkafex behind them they probably wont even get shot at.
Marmatag wrote:How do you guys model your Tyrants with Devourers? Do you use the FW models? I am going to be snipping off arms or just playing with "counts-as" until i figure this out. Also winged tyrants only have 2 slots on each side, and 1 of those slots is consumed by my wings.
I originally built mine from spare Harpy arms. Just snipped off the tab that fits their weapon barrels, trimmed down the ammunition sacks a bit, and then glued a pair of devourer cones to it with a bit of greenstuff to fill the gaps.
We don't tailor lists around here, he had no idea what I would bring and I'm usually light on psykers. He just brought an all-comers Space Wolf list that he likes (cc Dreadnought spam with some psyker backup and a Knight).
Fair enough and no offense intended. Just found it a bit suspect to see two of such a highly specialized model.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone mathammered HC’ s tentaclids versus Harpy’s two Venom Cannon? My gut feeling is the more conventional heavy firepower looks more useful than the electrocritter gimmick
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, if you use GSC and bring an IG detachment, are you allowed to use an IG character as your warlord?
As of yet there is no requirement that your Warlord have your army’s Faction, but I wouldn’t expect that to last beyond a couple of FAQ revisions
Against T7 3+ or T8 3+ 4 tentaclids inflict 1,5 wounds while 2 heavy venom cannons inflict 2,6. Against a T7 3+ with hard to hit they both inflict 1,7 damage. Against a flying tank with T7 or T8 tentaclids inflict 2,6 wounds. The drool cannon adds 0,6 wounds to all those targets.
In the end the harpy wins by 0,5 wounds against non flying targets. Chrone wins by 0,6 against Hemlocks and similar targets and by 0,5 wounds against fire prism like targets.
Actually a Crone's Tentaclids deal 1.73 wounds, while the HVC of the Harpy do 1.78 wounds. And you should also factor in the bomb drop of the Harpy
Hmm no, my math says:
4 tentaclids
2 hits
at S5 you wound on 5+ (0,33)
at no AP you get saved on 3+ (0,33)
2*0,33*0,33= 0,218
To this you add the shock damage:
2 hits, every hit inflicts 0,66 mortal wounds for a toal of 1,32 wounds, which added to 0,218 totals about 1,5
The HVC:
4 shots
2 hits
at S9 it wounds on 3+ (0,66)
at AP-2 you get saved at 5+ (0,66)
3 damage for each unsaved wound
2*0,66*0,66*3= 2,6
Also, i only accounted for the ranged threats. Spore drop is not a ranged threat.
Sorry, I was talking about Hard to Hit targets, where the Crone can reroll the dice roll because of fly.
Insectum7 wrote: I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First time outing with the codex went pretty well
I'm amazed someone let you move the super-smite battery so that Guilleman was the closest model.
It was after a little history of Warriors connecting with his lines, Repulsor getting killed by Swarmlord, then Guilliman coming up to counter Swarmlord.
And honestly, nobody was expecting the Zoanthropes to do that much damage.
Insectum7 wrote: I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First time outing with the codex went pretty well
I'm amazed someone let you move the super-smite battery so that Guilleman was the closest model.
It was after a little history of Warriors connecting with his lines, Repulsor getting killed by Swarmlord, then Guilliman coming up to counter Swarmlord.
And honestly, nobody was expecting the Zoanthropes to do that much damage.
That kinda highlights exactly why people are dissapointed with Zoanthropes though: They're meant to be a psychic artillery battery, but even absolute best case scenario you're gonna score 9 wounds.
Now yes, those are special punch through invulnerable wounds, but compared to the kind of damage a more classic warp blast power, each Zoanthrope tossing out a bolt of conventional damage, might be expected to do? Very underwhelming.
Mortal wounds generally make for a nice bonus, but outside of some extremely min-maxed builds aiming for them as a primary damage method is dubious.
I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
You can't bring them back in battle forged play because it requires that you have reinforcement points to do it. So that strategem is not that useful. There are plenty of other neat tricks though.
It's simple, anything that Adds whole units (strategems and half of the Tervigon ability) requires that you pay for them first. Spore Mines and mucolid spores have an exception written into their rule for when UNITS create them.
Things that add models to a unit that already exists do not require that you pay points. For example, the half of the Tervigon ability that Adds Termegaunts to a unit that had lost some.
Insectum7 wrote: I took a squad of 5 Zoanthropes to fill points because I'm still building Warriors. One got shot. The remaining four nearly one-shotted Guilliman with Smite for 2D3 and Psychic Scream for another D3, did 8 Mortal Wounds in a single phase. Some Warriors Deathspitted the last wound and Guilliman didn't get back up, even with a CP reroll.
First time outing with the codex went pretty well
I'm amazed someone let you move the super-smite battery so that Guilleman was the closest model.
It was after a little history of Warriors connecting with his lines, Repulsor getting killed by Swarmlord, then Guilliman coming up to counter Swarmlord.
And honestly, nobody was expecting the Zoanthropes to do that much damage.
That kinda highlights exactly why people are dissapointed with Zoanthropes though: They're meant to be a psychic artillery battery, but even absolute best case scenario you're gonna score 9 wounds.
Now yes, those are special punch through invulnerable wounds, but compared to the kind of damage a more classic warp blast power, each Zoanthrope tossing out a bolt of conventional damage, might be expected to do? Very underwhelming.
Mortal wounds generally make for a nice bonus, but outside of some extremely min-maxed builds aiming for them as a primary damage method is dubious.
Yeah I mostly agree with that, especially when only one squad can cast Psychic Scream, buuuuutt...
killerpenguin wrote: I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
Zoanthropes are infantry. Meaning you can do three squads of three and then bring them up through Jormungandr tunnels and alpha strike with the Psychic Barrage. Use the tunnels to leverage good aiming, and Psychic Barrage isn't limited to wounding the closest unit like Smite is. IMO it's a good anti buff bubble combo, and even if it isn't as effective as you want it to be, I think the potential can freak your opponent out.
Eh I can sort of see tunnelling four Zoanthropes up to try to do 3d3 mortal wounds, but 9 of them to do a much less useful version of Linebreaker bombardment?
changemod wrote: Eh I can sort of see tunnelling four Zoanthropes up to try to do 3d3 mortal wounds, but 9 of them to do a much less useful version of Linebreaker bombardment?
This is my thought. Jorm is definitely the best way to do that trick. The enemy can't shoot the zoeys before they get into position. You can pick and choose to maximize the effect... but it's so many points.
I think that having a Kronos Supreme Command of 3 Neuronthropes spread around the board would be beneficial in almost every army. SitW and the ability to really limit enemy smite, pyskic spells seems to be quite valuable.
Then build your army detachment for whatever other hive fleet is needed.
killerpenguin wrote: I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
Zoanthropes are infantry. Meaning you can do three squads of three and then bring them up through Jormungandr tunnels and alpha strike with the Psychic Barrage. Use the tunnels to leverage good aiming, and Psychic Barrage isn't limited to wounding the closest unit like Smite is. IMO it's a good anti buff bubble combo, and even if it isn't as effective as you want it to be, I think the potential can freak your opponent out.
Edited for format
That is juicy indeed. Im sure a lot of people struggle with untargetable characters like guilliman.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but can all units take toxin sacs and or adrenal glands. I notice some units don't have the option in wargear. Like Lictors, can they take TS and AG?
Dynas wrote: Maybe this is a dumb question, but can all units take toxin sacs and or adrenal glands. I notice some units don't have the option in wargear. Like Lictors, can they take TS and AG?
changemod wrote: Eh I can sort of see tunnelling four Zoanthropes up to try to do 3d3 mortal wounds, but 9 of them to do a much less useful version of Linebreaker bombardment?
I getcha, but imo the Vindicators are way easier to defend against, and Zoanthropes are a more useful unit to begin with. Also nine of them costs less than the three Vindicators. I'd advocate the Devilgant horde coming along for the ride as well, as you could fit the whole block within 3" of your tunneling Raveners. Then you have multiple threats up there, and the opponent has to make some choices about what to spend firepower on, as anti infantry firepower is ideal against every target. If they're going to shoot high power weapons at the Zoans with 3++, so be it.
The good thing about it is that it's an option. The trick is determining if Zoans would be decent in your army if you aren't going to use them that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dynas wrote: I think that having a Kronos Supreme Command of 3 Neuronthropes spread around the board would be beneficial in almost every army. SitW and the ability to really limit enemy smite, pyskic spells seems to be quite valuable.
Then build your army detachment for whatever other hive fleet is needed.
I know i'm late to the thread for this one, but TraceofToxin - I would go with the first list. This is pretty similar to what i'm doing.
I'm not a huge fan of the brigade, because it forces you to bring units that you really wouldn't *want* to include in a Tyranid list right now. So you end up doing it for the sake of 3CP.
What made you decide to go with mono-hivefleet? I was expecting a splash of Kronos. especially since primaris psykers and malefic lords are going to be bouncing around being dicks.
killerpenguin wrote: I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
Zoanthropes are infantry. Meaning you can do three squads of three and then bring them up through Jormungandr tunnels and alpha strike with the Psychic Barrage. Use the tunnels to leverage good aiming, and Psychic Barrage isn't limited to wounding the closest unit like Smite is. IMO it's a good anti buff bubble combo, and even if it isn't as effective as you want it to be, I think the potential can freak your opponent out.
Edited for format
That is juicy indeed. Im sure a lot of people struggle with untargetable characters like guilliman.
That is a terrifying use of 4CP. But... whilst it doesn’t explicitly broadcast itself, when you say ‘I’m Jormungandr’ informed opponents will see your Raveners and expect the need to screen. I spend similar amounts of CP on Plasma Chosen in a Dreadclaw, and believe me, none of my regular opponents tend to leave juicy targets for them. You’ll certainly get a few games where a target-rich environment is left open, though, especially as they have better reach than Rapid Fire.
Also people talking about bringing squads back, you have to set aside those points in reserves to do that. Meaning, you need the squad to fully die, and then, and only then, can you pay CP to return it to life.
In short why not just bring 2 of the squad in your list in the first place
Hmm. I’m digging through my old bug army. Got a unit of 16 Hormagaunts. Gonna up them to 20, as I play Power Levels. Is it worth going up to 30 to get a good chance at re-rolling Wounds? Seems like their best function is really deep Pile In shenanigans, which suggests bringing the numbers to make it work...
Edit: Also, I’m probably going Behemoth, so big unit can rack up the Mortal Wounds as well.
I’m thinking about going for a Brigade. I also gots:
- 20 Dakkagaunts; going to add 10 Termagants and a Tervigon
- 20 Genestealers
- 6 Warriors
- 6 Ripper swarms
Unless I buy even more minis, something’s going to have to split into two. I like the idea of a Genestealer horde, I’ve been on the receiving end and it’s quite formidable.
Maybe two minimum Ripper units, for early screening and objective tagging? That’s how I use my Nurglings, but that army doesn’t have eighteen Spore Mines to fill out FA...
Definitely split the rippers. As a unit of 3 they easily hide from shooting while holding objectives and They're the cheapest troops unit to fill slots.
The Zoanthrope strategy is way too expensive, way too situational. It's not like it autokills most juicy targets. And if they are juicy and vulnerable, any decent player is going to wrap them with more than 9" of chaff.
killerpenguin wrote: I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
Zoanthropes are infantry. Meaning you can do three squads of three and then bring them up through Jormungandr tunnels and alpha strike with the Psychic Barrage. Use the tunnels to leverage good aiming, and Psychic Barrage isn't limited to wounding the closest unit like Smite is. IMO it's a good anti buff bubble combo, and even if it isn't as effective as you want it to be, I think the potential can freak your opponent out.
Edited for format
That is juicy indeed. Im sure a lot of people struggle with untargetable characters like guilliman.
That is a terrifying use of 4CP. But... whilst it doesn’t explicitly broadcast itself, when you say ‘I’m Jormungandr’ informed opponents will see your Raveners and expect the need to screen. I spend similar amounts of CP on Plasma Chosen in a Dreadclaw, and believe me, none of my regular opponents tend to leave juicy targets for them. You’ll certainly get a few games where a target-rich environment is left open, though, especially as they have better reach than Rapid Fire.
You don't need to use 4 cps. you can just bring them with a Trygon.Correct me if im wrong, i dont have the full codex yet
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xmbk wrote: The Zoanthrope strategy is way too expensive, way too situational. It's not like it autokills most juicy targets. And if they are juicy and vulnerable, any decent player is going to wrap them with more than 9" of chaff.
It seems really strong to me. Bubblewraping high value aura characters is one of the strongest strategies in this ed. right now, and this is a direct counter to that. If they'er not dealt with straight away you're high value characters are in a really tough spot. And considering how fast tyranids are with this codex, they have genestealers with 3d6 pick the highest advance or rerolling charge ranges, you're looking at a lot of potential threats turn 1. So you have to choose what to deal with.
killerpenguin wrote: You don't need to use 4 cps. you can just bring them with a Trygon.Correct me if im wrong, i dont have the full codex yet
Trygon 170ish points vs 90 points in decent Raveners (3x deathspitter and rending claws).
If you got lots of cp, ravener taxi might be better while cheaper.
killerpenguin wrote: I don't have my hands on the codex yet, but i have seen som rumors. being able to DS 30 devil gaunts in the heart, and bring them back when the entire unit is dead for 3 cp seems super strong. And other juicy combos you guys have some up with`?
Zoanthropes are infantry. Meaning you can do three squads of three and then bring them up through Jormungandr tunnels and alpha strike with the Psychic Barrage. Use the tunnels to leverage good aiming, and Psychic Barrage isn't limited to wounding the closest unit like Smite is. IMO it's a good anti buff bubble combo, and even if it isn't as effective as you want it to be, I think the potential can freak your opponent out.
Edited for format
That is juicy indeed. Im sure a lot of people struggle with untargetable characters like guilliman.
That is a terrifying use of 4CP. But... whilst it doesn’t explicitly broadcast itself, when you say ‘I’m Jormungandr’ informed opponents will see your Raveners and expect the need to screen. I spend similar amounts of CP on Plasma Chosen in a Dreadclaw, and believe me, none of my regular opponents tend to leave juicy targets for them. You’ll certainly get a few games where a target-rich environment is left open, though, especially as they have better reach than Rapid Fire.
You don't need to use 4 cps. you can just bring them with a Trygon.Correct me if im wrong, i dont have the full codex yet
Trygon is limited to bringing Troops choices without CP, so no Zoanthropes.
xmbk wrote: The Zoanthrope strategy is way too expensive, way too situational. It's not like it autokills most juicy targets. And if they are juicy and vulnerable, any decent player is going to wrap them with more than 9" of chaff.
I see what you're saying, and I agree it's situational, but Tyranids also look to be really good at killing chaff. I think it's an interesting tool to have in the toolbox, and if one could come up with decent alternative plans for multiple Zoanthrope units for when the situation isn't right. . . Imo that's the only issue.
I mean... Yeah its a lot of potential MW that you can drop into a critical area. But consider all you need.
First each zoanthrope unit has to be within 6" of one of the units. Then all 3 units have to be able to trace los to the point on the battlefield only 18" away. Since deepstriking thats only <9" into the enemies line. With proper bubblewrap, especially on a gun line, the actual targets you want to hit with this could be up to 18" behimd the bubble wrap. THEN everything has to be clumped together around this point in the battlefield the zoanthrops have to see without blocking los to it. THEN you roll 1d6 for each unit in this magical perfect clump and you need a 4+ for it to do anything. Btw its a 5+ vs characters and a 3+ vs units with 10+ models.
The only reason you would WANT to do this thing is to annihalate a aura creating character and blow a chunk off the unit/s they are buffing but chances are the character will be untouched if its even targettable and the unit might take losses but wont die and you will have spent 4 comand points and lost the ability for 3 psyker units to manifest powers this turn so that you could gamble a 50/50 chance to hurt some infantry or some gak.
Marmatag wrote: I know i'm late to the thread for this one, but TraceofToxin - I would go with the first list. This is pretty similar to what i'm doing.
I'm not a huge fan of the brigade, because it forces you to bring units that you really wouldn't *want* to include in a Tyranid list right now. So you end up doing it for the sake of 3CP.
What made you decide to go with mono-hivefleet? I was expecting a splash of Kronos. especially since primaris psykers and malefic lords are going to be bouncing around being dicks.
I'm in 100% agreement about brigade, but I feel like 9 CP is just not enough, and there's a local store that holds tourneys where they limit you to 1 of each type of detachment. That store also happens to have some of the most competitive players in not just NE, but also the country (Sean Nayden, Alex Fennel, etc.). So yeah, I'm giving up a neurothrope and a Trygon for some units that aren't what I REALLY want, but they're not completely useless, and they get me effectively 2 more CP (lose 1 for having to use lictor stratagem). It's a tough place to be, I think.
I just can't fit Kronos, TBH. I have 1 HQ that can be moved into a patrol, but everything else is basically locked where they are, so I can't afford to take a kronos detachment without sacrificing something else. I'd also rather play to my strength than try to play to counter an opponent's. If I could fit it more easily, I'd go with it, but I think the key with nids is going to be overwhelming the opponent as quickly as possible, so I'm going to try focusing on that aspect for now.
Trace, who goes in the Trygon tunnels, the Genestealers or the Devilgautns?
Typically the 30 dev gaunts and if I want to, 20 stealers. Some matchups I may do all 40 stealers, as I can move+advance the dev gaunts and still fire out to 18", some matchups I may put nothing with them. But typically the dev gaunts are priority, then 20 stealers.
Okay, perusing the thread some more and looking at what I’ve got, I’ve built this 150 PL list to aim for. It’s based around a fleet that’s consumed an Ork planet, so lots of spores, dakka, choppy stuff, and some Weirdbugz:
I’m considering dropping the Broodlord for a Neurothrope and two more Zoeys. That looks like a strong psy-firebase. But I’d like to have a solid Genestealer incursion on one flank that can try to nerf some gunner unit, whilst the other flank gets riddled with Termagants.
Lance845 wrote: I mean... Yeah its a lot of potential MW that you can drop into a critical area. But consider all you need.
First each zoanthrope unit has to be within 6" of one of the units. Then all 3 units have to be able to trace los to the point on the battlefield only 18" away. Since deepstriking thats only <9" into the enemies line. With proper bubblewrap, especially on a gun line, the actual targets you want to hit with this could be up to 18" behimd the bubble wrap. THEN everything has to be clumped together around this point in the battlefield the zoanthrops have to see without blocking los to it. THEN you roll 1d6 for each unit in this magical perfect clump and you need a 4+ for it to do anything. Btw its a 5+ vs characters and a 3+ vs units with 10+ models.
The only reason you would WANT to do this thing is to annihalate a aura creating character and blow a chunk off the unit/s they are buffing but chances are the character will be untouched if its even targettable and the unit might take losses but wont die and you will have spent 4 comand points and lost the ability for 3 psyker units to manifest powers this turn so that you could gamble a 50/50 chance to hurt some infantry or some gak.
Just bring neurothropes.
Just playing devils advocate here but.
A: If they're all coming in through a tunnel, the Zoans are within 6" of each other anyways.
B: Oftentimes the Deployment Zone is just not deep enough to put the juicy stuff that far away. Consider an IG gunline wrapped with Conscripts in a 12" deep deployment. I'm used to seeing alot of Artillery crammed next to each other for easy wrapping in a corner. There are infiltrators to extend that, absolutely. But infiltrating to extend your wrap is also putting models closer to the rest of your Tyranids, which doesn't seem like a loss to me. Units closer to my line just seem like stepping stones to get to the enemy faster.
I have 6 Zoanthropes and I like the model. I'd consider getting more just to be able to run two units at 4+ anyways, and my fleet choice right now is Jorm, sooo I may give it a go at some point. (actually I could just run Mucolids as extra Zoans for a few games.)
Tactics are simple: Kronos holds down the backfield and opens tanks with shooting, Trygon delivers the 'gants for the double tap, Tyrants and 'stealers look for first and second turn charges.
Lance845 wrote: I mean... Yeah its a lot of potential MW that you can drop into a critical area. But consider all you need.
First each zoanthrope unit has to be within 6" of one of the units. Then all 3 units have to be able to trace los to the point on the battlefield only 18" away. Since deepstriking thats only <9" into the enemies line. With proper bubblewrap, especially on a gun line, the actual targets you want to hit with this could be up to 18" behimd the bubble wrap. THEN everything has to be clumped together around this point in the battlefield the zoanthrops have to see without blocking los to it. THEN you roll 1d6 for each unit in this magical perfect clump and you need a 4+ for it to do anything. Btw its a 5+ vs characters and a 3+ vs units with 10+ models.
The only reason you would WANT to do this thing is to annihalate a aura creating character and blow a chunk off the unit/s they are buffing but chances are the character will be untouched if its even targettable and the unit might take losses but wont die and you will have spent 4 comand points and lost the ability for 3 psyker units to manifest powers this turn so that you could gamble a 50/50 chance to hurt some infantry or some gak.
Just bring neurothropes.
Just playing devils advocate here but.
A: If they're all coming in through a tunnel, the Zoans are within 6" of each other anyways.
B: Oftentimes the Deployment Zone is just not deep enough to put the juicy stuff that far away. Consider an IG gunline wrapped with Conscripts in a 12" deep deployment. I'm used to seeing alot of Artillery crammed next to each other for easy wrapping in a corner. There are infiltrators to extend that, absolutely. But infiltrating to extend your wrap is also putting models closer to the rest of your Tyranids, which doesn't seem like a loss to me. Units closer to my line just seem like stepping stones to get to the enemy faster.
I have 6 Zoanthropes and I like the model. I'd consider getting more just to be able to run two units at 4+ anyways, and my fleet choice right now is Jorm, sooo I may give it a go at some point. (actually I could just run Mucolids as extra Zoans for a few games.)
Yeah i intend to try it. Its just the roll a d6 50% chance you do nothing that turns me away from it looking any kind of viable. It requires so much to go right and then you just... Hope for the best?
I'm in 100% agreement about brigade, but I feel like 9 CP is just not enough, and there's a local store that holds tourneys where they limit you to 1 of each type of detachment. That store also happens to have some of the most competitive players in not just NE, but also the country (Sean Nayden, Alex Fennel, etc.). So yeah, I'm giving up a neurothrope and a Trygon for some units that aren't what I REALLY want, but they're not completely useless, and they get me effectively 2 more CP (lose 1 for having to use lictor stratagem). It's a tough place to be, I think.
I just can't fit Kronos, TBH. I have 1 HQ that can be moved into a patrol, but everything else is basically locked where they are, so I can't afford to take a kronos detachment without sacrificing something else. I'd also rather play to my strength than try to play to counter an opponent's. If I could fit it more easily, I'd go with it, but I think the key with nids is going to be overwhelming the opponent as quickly as possible, so I'm going to try focusing on that aspect for now.
I came to the same conclusion as you about not being able to fit Kronos, sadly.
Also I love that you name dropped Nayden first and Fennel second haha. I’ll be sure to rag on Fennel for that the next time I see him.
Finally, I think you’re right that CP is just too strong right now. The only reason I didn’t like your Brigade Detachment more is because as it stands, I don’t think it’s sufficiently optimized for the people you’ll be playing against. But I do believe that the most competitive Tyranid lists will with certainty include a Brigade. Lictor taxi >> Trygon taxi
I'm in 100% agreement about brigade, but I feel like 9 CP is just not enough, and there's a local store that holds tourneys where they limit you to 1 of each type of detachment. That store also happens to have some of the most competitive players in not just NE, but also the country (Sean Nayden, Alex Fennel, etc.). So yeah, I'm giving up a neurothrope and a Trygon for some units that aren't what I REALLY want, but they're not completely useless, and they get me effectively 2 more CP (lose 1 for having to use lictor stratagem). It's a tough place to be, I think.
I just can't fit Kronos, TBH. I have 1 HQ that can be moved into a patrol, but everything else is basically locked where they are, so I can't afford to take a kronos detachment without sacrificing something else. I'd also rather play to my strength than try to play to counter an opponent's. If I could fit it more easily, I'd go with it, but I think the key with nids is going to be overwhelming the opponent as quickly as possible, so I'm going to try focusing on that aspect for now.
I came to the same conclusion as you about not being able to fit Kronos, sadly.
Also I love that you name dropped Nayden first and Fennel second haha. I’ll be sure to rag on Fennel for that the next time I see him.
Finally, I think you’re right that CP is just too strong right now. The only reason I didn’t like your Brigade Detachment more is because as it stands, I don’t think it’s sufficiently optimized for the people you’ll be playing against. But I do believe that the most competitive Tyranid lists will with certainty include a Brigade. Lictor taxi >> Trygon taxi
Nayden is the first person that comes to mind when I think of ranked people in that ground, probably because of lictor shame, or the last time we played for first at an RTT when I was using bugs and he was doing Eldar/DE at the beginning of 6th edition. I've never actually played against Fennel, which is weird because I've played at a number of tournaments with him.
I think Trygons are actually pretty decent units, especially when dropped in alongside flyrants, whereas lictors are basically trash outside pheromone trail. Problem is that, while Trygons are better for killing big gak than standard stealers, I think I'd rather have stuff that enables the stealers.
I might end up adjusting my list to be 60 stealers and 60 hormagaunts, maybe go with hive guard to reach out and show heavy weapons teams some love. Not sure yet, will give this list a dozen more games or so.
(I know this is from a different thread, but it makes more sense to post here)
Lance845 wrote: Why would you ever take Venomthropes? A degrading -1 to hit aura as models die that can be targetted or for 90 points a 9w character that provides a great -1 to hit aura and synapse.
They do have the advantage of being infantry so they can use Jormungandr's They Came from Below stratagem to deep strike alongside Raveners or a Trygon acting as a 'stealer taxi, thus providing shrouding without needing to pay for a Tyrannocyte and putting them in range to use their combat stats.
I 100% agree that I think Sean is a better player (no offense to Alex). Sean is definitely a visionary.
Trygons not having an invuln kills them for me. In an age of lists where people expect to have to kill a Magnus or a Mortarion, giving them one that is only T6 with way less wounds and no invuln...too easy. So for me, all it is reasonably going to do is make their anti tank fire very efficient. And be a taxi. So I’d rather not do the former and take a cheaper taxi.
And yes, Lictors are 100% only for pheromone trail and then being a ripper squad that you hope no one ever pays attention to.
I 100% agree that I think Sean is a better player (no offense to Alex). Sean is definitely a visionary.
Trygons not having an invuln kills them for me. In an age of lists where people expect to have to kill a Magnus or a Mortarion, giving them one that is only T6 with way less wounds and no invuln...too easy. So for me, all it is reasonably going to do is make their anti tank fire very efficient. And be a taxi. So I’d rather not do the former and take a cheaper taxi.
And yes, Lictors are 100% only for pheromone trail and then being a ripper squad that you hope no one ever pays attention to.
I agree about Trygons. Which is why you drop them with Tyrants. 2 Tyrants are as durable as Morty. Most armies will have just enough to kill morty in one go, on average. It's not ideal, but it's the only way to get a delivery service for both GS squads at the same time if I need it, and to get delivery without a CP and 45 totally wasted points. At least a Trygon will get shot a lot.
I'd love to run them as Jorm, then they'd be 2+ and that's actually fairly decent, but for now I think Kraken is far more important for the actual damage dealers in the army.
In general, it's not ideal, but we've got to make hard choices in our list building.
Personally, I'd prefer no monsters or multi-wound units at all, to completely gak on the meta, but that's even harder to make work, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alright guys, I won't be trying this at the upcoming tourney, but here's a list idea;
Kraken Battalion
Malanthrope
Neurothrope
30 Horms
30 Horms
20 GS 20 GS
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
20 GS with carapace
30 Dev gants
30 Dev Gants
3 Rav with rc 3 Rav with rc
Basically you use the 100 kraken bodies to rush the opponent, then drop off the 80 jormungandr bodies as needed. Enemies that have infiltrators/scouts are forced to choose between giving you first turn assaults that will move you forward and protect you (Just dont kill the damn things!), or blocking off your jorm drops. If you have first turn you can drop those ECGS right in front of the enemy and force them to blow twice as much non-ap shooting to remove them as normal stealers.
My biggest issue with the list is you are blowing 3 CP out the gate, leaving you with 6. You'll probably spend 2 to double tap dev gants and 1 to double advance a GS unit, so you go into turn 2 with 3 CP. That's not good.
I really like that list, though to relieve some of the command point burden maybe swapping the Jormungandr detachment for a GSC detachment may be wise? You could get 2 Magi, 20 Purestrain Genestealers, and a couple 5 to 10 man Acolyte squads with Demolition Charges or Neophyte squads to fill out the Battalion with the points and move one of the Devourer squads to the Kraken detachment. Demolition Charges are very nice anti-tank (albeit short range) which is otherwise something fairly hard to get in our infantry squads and could help make up for the lack of monsters for can opening. Also by taking a GSC detachment you could unlock a small Auxiliary detachment with an AM Commander with the Kurov's Aquila relic for CP recovery (could even go so far as to make him the Warlord with the 5+ recovery warlord trait if really needed).
lindsay40k wrote: Okay, perusing the thread some more and looking at what I’ve got, I’ve built this 150 PL list to aim for. It’s based around a fleet that’s consumed an Ork planet, so lots of spores, dakka, choppy stuff, and some Weirdbugz:
I’m considering dropping the Broodlord for a Neurothrope and two more Zoeys. That looks like a strong psy-firebase. But I’d like to have a solid Genestealer incursion on one flank that can try to nerf some gunner unit, whilst the other flank gets riddled with Termagants.
I’m thinking about dropping my Broodlord and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope, Lictor, and Meiotic Spore (to use the remaining budget). Mal would keep the Tyrant and T-fex going for longer. But with the other monsters packing Spore Cysts, is it all that necessary? Genestealers would lose their Synapse babysitter that provides re-rolls, but they and the Warriors and the dakkagaunts would gain the option to follow a Pheremone Trail, depending on the opponent and setup. Even the Zoanthropes could come along. That could be invaluable if I’m playing up the length of the table...
Edit: might drop the Meiotic and some Spore Mines for a unit of Raveners. This is Behemoth, by the way.
Also: if there’s a line of ten Termagants leading from a dakkagaunst cluster (same unit) back to the Tervigon, and nine of them die, leaving a cluster of dakkagaunts with a termagant buddy a foot away, they do still count as in synapse range and get to recycle the nine dead ones to rebuild the conga line, right?
Battlescribe is updated 9for the mobile app at least) Tyranids are on V17 and are accurate as far as I have seen.
Not checked the entire range but all the commonly used stuff has been fine.
My current list which has been doing very nicely:
Kraken Battalion:
Hive Tyrant-wings, scything talons, heavy venom cannon, chamelion skin, psychic scream, the horror, adrenal and toxin
Broodlord-Catalyst
I 100% agree that I think Sean is a better player (no offense to Alex). Sean is definitely a visionary.
Trygons not having an invuln kills them for me. In an age of lists where people expect to have to kill a Magnus or a Mortarion, giving them one that is only T6 with way less wounds and no invuln...too easy. So for me, all it is reasonably going to do is make their anti tank fire very efficient. And be a taxi. So I’d rather not do the former and take a cheaper taxi.
And yes, Lictors are 100% only for pheromone trail and then being a ripper squad that you hope no one ever pays attention to.
What about weakening their anti-tank fire power before they get to strike at the Trygon? I can think of some good quality ranged weapons that can erase threats, miasma cannon on a flyrant with Jorm trait, for example.
My list;
Battalion - Kraken
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Psychic Scream, Paroxysm (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, never suffers penalty to hit trait)
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope
We don't tailor lists around here, he had no idea what I would bring and I'm usually light on psykers. He just brought an all-comers Space Wolf list that he likes (cc Dreadnought spam with some psyker backup and a Knight).
Fair enough and no offense intended. Just found it a bit suspect to see two of such a highly specialized model.
None taken, I don't know how common it is to field Culexus in Space Wolf armies for some nice psyker defense. Also as you only hit them on 6's and they can deepstrike, they are decent multi-purpose tools.
Eihnlazer wrote: I would actually change your second battalion to khronos as well since kraken doesn't benefit it much but rippers are quite nifty with khronos trait.
Either that or leviathan/jormugundyr for enhanced survivability.
What does the Kronos re-roll 1's in the shooting phase trait do for the rippers?
I get that they extend the bubble for the strategem but with 3 biovores spraying spores around I dont worry too much about that bubble.
I just found my termagants were never standing still, too short range and needing to move to maximise firepower was better than the re-roll 1's.
Also for the short term I have a GT coming up and will be differentiating with different coloured bases so don't want to make it too complicated for my opponents.
I am tempted to drop the malanthrope from the Kronos detachment and replace it with another Neurothrope. He only really gives -1 to hit on the exocrine so not a huge benefit anyway. The hive guard and Biovores are hidden away.
lindsay40k wrote: Okay, perusing the thread some more and looking at what I’ve got, I’ve built this 150 PL list to aim for. It’s based around a fleet that’s consumed an Ork planet, so lots of spores, dakka, choppy stuff, and some Weirdbugz:
I’m considering dropping the Broodlord for a Neurothrope and two more Zoeys. That looks like a strong psy-firebase. But I’d like to have a solid Genestealer incursion on one flank that can try to nerf some gunner unit, whilst the other flank gets riddled with Termagants.
I’m thinking about dropping my Broodlord and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope, Lictor, and Meiotic Spore (to use the remaining budget). Mal would keep the Tyrant and T-fex going for longer. But with the other monsters packing Spore Cysts, is it all that necessary? Genestealers would lose their Synapse babysitter that provides re-rolls, but they and the Warriors and the dakkagaunts would gain the option to follow a Pheremone Trail, depending on the opponent and setup. Even the Zoanthropes could come along. That could be invaluable if I’m playing up the length of the table...
Edit: might drop the Meiotic and some Spore Mines for a unit of Raveners. This is Behemoth, by the way.
Also: if there’s a line of ten Termagants leading from a dakkagaunst cluster (same unit) back to the Tervigon, and nine of them die, leaving a cluster of dakkagaunts with a termagant buddy a foot away, they do still count as in synapse range and get to recycle the nine dead ones to rebuild the conga line, right?
Mal isn't really useful unless your advancing with a lot of infantry or you have a fire base. I don't see what hes doing for your list besides helping the T-Fex. Tyrants are better for flying with dakka IMO. Your list kinda seems all over and not really focused. Id also never use a crushing claws canri. Convert the stronecrusher from forgeworld if you want anti vehicle from them. Hitting on 5s is garbage.
As for the list, lots of command points is easy and good, but don't feel the need to pidgeonhole yourself into it if its not focused.
As for your question, they are in range for synapse yes.. And no, you cant make the conga line per the rules in the codex. It states when you spawn 10 to replace ones that died in an existing unit they need to all be within 6 of the tervigon
Holy cow - I played a not so optimal 2000 list against AD mech last night and just my geenstealers with kraken hive fleet won the game pretty much by themselves.
I started them on the board behind a big rock right at the front of my deployment zone because i didn't know if I was going first or not. I end up going first and these speed daemons moved 27 inches with the swarm lords ability - could have added 6 more inches with the kraken stratagem too. They got a 10 inch charge and they locked up almost his entire army - their damage was nothing special (they only killed 10 vangard and put 2 wounds on a destroyer) but even so the game was over - he couldn't even kill the 20 man gene with catalyst on it because most of his army was ineligible to shoot and 3 hive tyrants are charging him next turn too.
I am totally sold on kraken stealers. They don't even need a swarm lord. Just take 2 20 man groups and save yourself 60 points.
As for your question, they are in range for synapse yes.. And no, you cant make the conga line per the rules in the codex. It states when you spawn 10 to replace ones that died in an existing unit they need to all be within 6 of the tervigon
Max distance to maintain a conga line is 8". since 6" deployment+2" coherency.
Sneggy wrote: Battlescribe is updated 9for the mobile app at least) Tyranids are on V17 and are accurate as far as I have seen.
Not checked the entire range but all the commonly used stuff has been fine.
Its v19 now. Looks good, and seems to have all options as far as i can tell.
As for your question, they are in range for synapse yes.. And no, you cant make the conga line per the rules in the codex. It states when you spawn 10 to replace ones that died in an existing unit they need to all be within 6 of the tervigon
Max distance to maintain a conga line is 8". since 6" deployment+2" coherency.
No its 6. I didn't clarify, but the book states all models have to be wholy within 6 inches of the tervigon. any that are not are destroyed.
Xenomancers wrote: Holy cow - I played a not so optimal 2000 list against AD mech last night and just my geenstealers with kraken hive fleet won the game pretty much by themselves.
I started them on the board behind a big rock right at the front of my deployment zone because i didn't know if I was going first or not. I end up going first and these speed daemons moved 27 inches with the swarm lords ability - could have added 6 more inches with the kraken stratagem too. They got a 10 inch charge and they locked up almost his entire army - their damage was nothing special (they only killed 10 vangard and put 2 wounds on a destroyer) but even so the game was over - he couldn't even kill the 20 man gene with catalyst on it because most of his army was ineligible to shoot and 3 hive tyrants are charging him next turn too.
I am totally sold on kraken stealers. They don't even need a swarm lord. Just take 2 20 man groups and save yourself 60 points.
I plan to take swarmy and 2 20x units.
Without swarmy though you are dropping your movement/advance extra (thats a potential 14")
I plan to DS in with Trygon then use swarmy. To move and advance within 1".
But yeah, kraken i think is the best fleet for an assault/melee army without a doubt. People underestimate the speed and movement. Everyone thinks shooting is what wins the game and its not, b/c as you pointed out, just lockup the shooting and they can't do anything.
Sneggy wrote: Battlescribe is updated 9for the mobile app at least) Tyranids are on V17 and are accurate as far as I have seen.
Not checked the entire range but all the commonly used stuff has been fine.
Its v19 now. Looks good, and seems to have all options as far as i can tell.
Termigaunts could still but Spike Rifles as of yesterday, but otherwise looks about right.
Don't forget rippers now have a stratagem that lowers enemy leadership by 1 if they are within 6".
Khronos rippers cant be ignored because of the strat available to them and they have too many wounds to just throw a few potshots at them like spore mines.
Eihnlazer wrote: Don't forget rippers now have a stratagem that lowers enemy leadership by 1 if they are within 6".
Khronos rippers cant be ignored because of the strat available to them and they have too many wounds to just throw a few potshots at them like spore mines.
Spore Mines from biovores though can't be shot before the psychic phase. They can also land much closer and disrupt enemy movement.
Xenomancers wrote: Holy cow - I played a not so optimal 2000 list against AD mech last night and just my geenstealers with kraken hive fleet won the game pretty much by themselves.
I started them on the board behind a big rock right at the front of my deployment zone because i didn't know if I was going first or not. I end up going first and these speed daemons moved 27 inches with the swarm lords ability - could have added 6 more inches with the kraken stratagem too. They got a 10 inch charge and they locked up almost his entire army - their damage was nothing special (they only killed 10 vangard and put 2 wounds on a destroyer) but even so the game was over - he couldn't even kill the 20 man gene with catalyst on it because most of his army was ineligible to shoot and 3 hive tyrants are charging him next turn too.
I am totally sold on kraken stealers. They don't even need a swarm lord. Just take 2 20 man groups and save yourself 60 points.
I plan to take swarmy and 2 20x units.
Without swarmy though you are dropping your movement/advance extra (thats a potential 14")
I plan to DS in with Trygon then use swarmy. To move and advance within 1".
But yeah, kraken i think is the best fleet for an assault/melee army without a doubt. People underestimate the speed and movement. Everyone thinks shooting is what wins the game and its not, b/c as you pointed out, just lockup the shooting and they can't do anything.
Humm. Try using a lictor then - that will be cheaper - 1 command point to deep strike on the lictor for 45 points. You could even deploy the swarmy without a pod too.
To get points for venom cannons you would have to change a malanthrope and tyranid prime out for 2 more nuerothropes (not necessarily a bad thing). This would make you susceptible to snipers though.
Eihnlazer wrote: To get points for venom cannons you would have to change a malanthrope and tyranid prime out for 2 more nuerothropes (not necessarily a bad thing). This would make you susceptible to snipers though.
With that many warriors you dont want to lose the prime. I'd say drop a few warriors down to groups of 7 maybe. Then load up on venoms.
I 100% agree that I think Sean is a better player (no offense to Alex). Sean is definitely a visionary.
Trygons not having an invuln kills them for me. In an age of lists where people expect to have to kill a Magnus or a Mortarion, giving them one that is only T6 with way less wounds and no invuln...too easy. So for me, all it is reasonably going to do is make their anti tank fire very efficient. And be a taxi. So I’d rather not do the former and take a cheaper taxi.
And yes, Lictors are 100% only for pheromone trail and then being a ripper squad that you hope no one ever pays attention to.
I agree about Trygons. Which is why you drop them with Tyrants. 2 Tyrants are as durable as Morty. Most armies will have just enough to kill morty in one go, on average. It's not ideal, but it's the only way to get a delivery service for both GS squads at the same time if I need it, and to get delivery without a CP and 45 totally wasted points. At least a Trygon will get shot a lot.
I'd love to run them as Jorm, then they'd be 2+ and that's actually fairly decent, but for now I think Kraken is far more important for the actual damage dealers in the army.
In general, it's not ideal, but we've got to make hard choices in our list building.
Personally, I'd prefer no monsters or multi-wound units at all, to completely gak on the meta, but that's even harder to make work, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alright guys, I won't be trying this at the upcoming tourney, but here's a list idea;
Kraken Battalion
Malanthrope
Neurothrope
30 Horms
30 Horms
20 GS 20 GS
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
20 GS with carapace
30 Dev gants
30 Dev Gants
3 Rav with rc 3 Rav with rc
Basically you use the 100 kraken bodies to rush the opponent, then drop off the 80 jormungandr bodies as needed. Enemies that have infiltrators/scouts are forced to choose between giving you first turn assaults that will move you forward and protect you (Just dont kill the damn things!), or blocking off your jorm drops. If you have first turn you can drop those ECGS right in front of the enemy and force them to blow twice as much non-ap shooting to remove them as normal stealers.
My biggest issue with the list is you are blowing 3 CP out the gate, leaving you with 6. You'll probably spend 2 to double tap dev gants and 1 to double advance a GS unit, so you go into turn 2 with 3 CP. That's not good.
You guys have really got my Hive Mind juices flowing! Love the idea of this rushdown list. Between the double fire strat on Devilgants, more deployment options, and the various Hive fleet bonuses we may just have the tools for this type of list to work.
Couple of quick (possibly silly) questions (I'm still rather green with 8th and am trying to wrap my head around all the new Nids stuff):
Using the Jormungandr stratagem, can multiple units deploy off of the same "burrowing" unit? If so, is it even possible to fit 50 models (20 GS, 30 Devilgants) around 3 Raveners deployed at max coherency? I'm assuming that's how this list works or are you choosing one unit to slog up the field depending on opponent?
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.
Haha. That was me.
I have enough Warriors for that list. No Malanthropes or Rippers yet, but Zoans for Neurothrope stand ins. Warriors progress link in my sig. Played my first game a few days ago after picking up the codex.
My list;
Battalion - Kraken
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Psychic Scream, Paroxysm (Warlord, -1 to hit relic, never suffers penalty to hit trait)
Flyrant - 2x Devourers, MRC - Catalyst, The Horror
Malanthrope
10 Devilgants could by you Adrenal Glands on Hormagaunts plus Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs on your Flyrants, good trade?
Hmmm. I think I'd rather have the 30/60 shots than the AG, but it is something to think about. 2" could be the difference between making a first turn charge or not, for sure.
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.
Haha. That was me.
I have enough Warriors for that list. No Malanthropes or Rippers yet, but Zoans for Neurothrope stand ins. Warriors progress link in my sig. Played my first game a few days ago after picking up the codex.
How was the games? I am waiting for my last 3 warriors so I have 18. Planing on devourers on 12 and 6 with venom cannon and bone swords. I always loose to mass tanks.
How was the games? I am waiting for my last 3 warriors so I have 18. Planing on devourers on 12 and 6 with venom cannon and bone swords. I always loose to mass tanks.
Good, although we didn't finish. Played against an all primaris UM w/Guilliman army. My army dropped a few hundred points with the codex, and some of my Warriors are still in the paint stripper, so not table-ready. I had to fill in points with a Swarmlord and Zoanthropes. Not great synergy, and I muddled through the game trying to remember the good strategems, etc. Went pretty well though. The Warriors with Deathspitters pump out a lot of shots and were satifying. Guilliman came out to kill the Swarmlord, and left him out where I could maneuver a Smite and Psychic Scream on him. I rolled real well, and pumped 8 Mortal Wounds into him, then finished him off with Deathspitters. Very satisfying.
He had the Banner artefact that allows a dying model to shoot on a 3+, very dangerous on Hellblasters. I lost a number of models to just that. Killing them in CC would have helped a lot, so after I get through painting my Warriors, Genestealers may be in order.
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
There was a fellow posting he wanted an all Warriors army. You mught get more use out of Liathan instead of Jormongandr...depends on what you're facing.
Haha. That was me.
I have enough Warriors for that list. No Malanthropes or Rippers yet, but Zoans for Neurothrope stand ins. Warriors progress link in my sig. Played my first game a few days ago after picking up the codex.
How was the games? I am waiting for my last 3 warriors so I have 18. Planing on devourers on 12 and 6 with venom cannon and bone swords. I always loose to mass tanks.
If you're using lots of warriors, bring venom cannons. BS3 warrior venom cannons are our third most cost effective AT weapons. Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard and Tfex, in that order, are the rest of the top 5
It is best vs T8 tanks. Exochrine is best vs T7 witch are most.
I have 6 hive guards as my AT. I have a painted tyranofex with flamer but use it rarly. I am thinking of getting an exochrine. I shall try out the new flamer before I potensialy switch out to the cannon.
I think my venom warriors + exoshrine will be good enough.
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Traceoftoxin wrote: If you're using lots of warriors, bring venom cannons. BS3 warrior venom cannons are our third most cost effective AT weapons. Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard and Tfex, in that order, are the rest of the top 5
How are you calculating that? A warrior venom cannon is 40 points. If you have 18 a kittet out prime is around 5 points ekstra on each warrior. 12 of them have no-venom cannon (heavy bolter). Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard must all be cheaper?
It is best vs T8 tanks. Exochrine is best vs T7 witch are most.
I have 6 hive guards as my AT. I have a painted tyranofex with flamer but use it rarly. I am thinking of getting an exochrine. I shall try out the new flamer before I potensialy switch out to the cannon.
I think my venom warriors + exoshrine will be good enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traceoftoxin wrote: If you're using lots of warriors, bring venom cannons. BS3 warrior venom cannons are our third most cost effective AT weapons. Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard and Tfex, in that order, are the rest of the top 5
How are you calculating that? A warrior venom cannon is 40 points. If you have 18 a kittet out prime is around 5 points ekstra on each warrior. 12 of them have no-venom cannon (heavy bolter). Shock Guard, Exocrines, Impaler Guard must all be cheaper?
Just on the actual model basis, since you can split fire freely.
I hate arguing for warriors, but there's also the fact that you can lose 2/3 of a unit of warriors before losing any AT effectiveness. As soon as you hit 50% on an MC or any models from HG they go down. So, that is a small buffer for them.
No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.
The usual suspects:
Hive guard electric gun. But only range 24.
Exochrine tends to be numero uno.
Tyranofex is better vs T8, exochrine is better vs every one else.
Hive guard impaler cannon has very good flexabilaty vs targets out of line of sight.
Venom warrior cannon clock in around hive guards depending on how many warriors you use to divide the price on the prime. And if you only count the venom cannon and the heavy bolter shoots other things.
Stratagems:
Warriors and Hive guards can take the double shooting. Exochrine can take extra wound.
I would also like to point out that your basic 3 warriors squad, 2 bolters and 1 venom cannon can be recreated in the carnifex with 2 S7 bolters and the heavy venom cannon. It can have BS3+ and the hard to hit.
It is hard to argue one is better then the other although the Exochrine comes out better then most, and most lists want one group of infantery for the double shooting.
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
Interesting. Seems similar to Tau S5 spam, which is rather effective against most armies. Though I lack the commander spam to remove tough targets...
I can do that. 64 Warriors actually. Some are still close combat loadout (ST+RC), which i have to magnetize with new arms, but most of them are deathspitter+scything talons, or got the option to do so.
They got 4 different paint shemes but should be possible to field them in non tournament environment.
Niiai wrote: No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.
I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.
As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.
It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.
When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.
Niiai wrote: No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.
I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.
As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.
It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.
When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.
I agree with this reasoning, especially now that those deathspitters are range 24".
I love warriors as AT, they are durable, long range and mobile.
Exochrine is really good mathwise, but being range 24" immobile is not always practical. Now that assault armies are on the rise (tyranids were the first, now it comes blood angels and chaos demons), range 24" will carry a serious risk of being assaulted.
No tricks, just a fearless march up the table with +1 armor and -1 to hit. 56 heavy bolters (168 shots) and 3d3 mortal wounds starting dmg at range.
Swapping out 6 of those warriors for 2x 3 units of Raveners seems like a no brainer as Jormungandr. For a couple CP you get great deployment flexibility (can easily fit 2-3 units of 9 warriors around them), a solid alpha/beta strike when combined with the shoot twice stratagem, and it sticks with the theme.
Niiai wrote: No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.
I said the third cheapest. And it is. Do the math yourself. It's pretty simple. Or you can just look at the numbers I put up for everyone to read.
As I mentioned, I don't factor in the cost of an Alpha, or the other two warriors. Just the cost of the model vs other models. Even without and alpha, firing at BS4, a VC warrior is still the 8th most cost effective model in our army against T7 3+, within 10% of the effectiveness of Impaler guard, HVC+2x Deathspitter BS3 fex and the rupture cannon tyrannofex.
It's just a matter of VC warriors being WAY cheaper than all of the other platforms.
When you figure in the cost of the full unit, they're not good at all. But, because you can split fire, and because the unit can be used for multiple purposes in 8th edition, that is deceptive. You can be firing every turn with 6 deathspitter warriors at infantry squads, and 3 VC warriors at tanks. You're not wasting any points on shooting tanks with deathspitters, so those 3 VC warriors are performing to maximum efficiency with their guns.
I agree with this reasoning, especially now that those deathspitters are range 24".
I love warriors as AT, they are durable, long range and mobile.
Exochrine is really good mathwise, but being range 24" immobile is not always practical. Now that assault armies are on the rise (tyranids were the first, now it comes blood angels and chaos demons), range 24" will carry a serious risk of being assaulted.
Exocrines have 36 inch range, since the index came out in summer!
Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.
I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.
I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.
If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)
Niiai wrote: I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.
I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.
I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.
If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)
The Fex with HVC and DS might outperform the Warriors, but they are at least much cheaper with only arount 90 points for 3 and give SitW with Synapse. They also have twice the amount of attacks in CC with 3+ to hit, so they can stand their ground more easily.
Btw I did the calculation for Leviathan Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard in 6 inch. If my calc is correct, they have a chance of not getting any wound of 64% due to having double the 6+++ FNP with the Tyrant guard. This is when you even have to use the 4++ roll because someone is shooting with a LasCan or something like that.
So in short: Leviathan Hive Tyrants with Tyrant Guard close are really durable!!!
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Well okay sure, but I have an existing Genestealer cult army if all I wanted to do was spam stealer shock.
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Problem is tyrant guard are meant to die if they do their job properly so I'm not sure about spending points on them. You can always drop them in and ignore their ability to keep a tyrant alive but then then you need that 9" charge or they are dead. Out in the open they are not difficult to kill and with crushing claws they are not getting near any tanks - but as a distraction they may work and soak up some high S shooting. I might give them a try but not convinced. For anti-tank I'm still leaning towards 18 hive guard to be honest but getting those models is a slow burner!
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Well okay sure, but I have an existing Genestealer cult army if all I wanted to do was spam stealer shock.
I did not say, you should spam stealer shock. However, 15 GS with TS are way better anti-tank than 6 Tyrant Guard with CC.
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Problem is tyrant guard are meant to die if they do their job properly so I'm not sure about spending points on them. You can always drop them in and ignore their ability to keep a tyrant alive but then then you need that 9" charge or they are dead. Out in the open they are not difficult to kill and with crushing claws they are not getting near any tanks - but as a distraction they may work and soak up some high S shooting. I might give them a try but not convinced. For anti-tank I'm still leaning towards 18 hive guard to be honest but getting those models is a slow burner!
Tyrant Guards can have adrenalin glands, so you have a good chance of dropping in and charging.
I will try Leviathan HT + TG to see if it is worth anything.
Astmeister wrote: I did not say, you should spam stealer shock. However, 15 GS with TS are way better anti-tank than 6 Tyrant Guard with CC.
More responding to the general trend that Genestealers are being touted as the solution to most assault problems, honestly. Might've came across a bit hostile from my current sleep deprivation.
As I mentioned in another post, stealer spam in a kraken list will win you games. They are cheap enough and fast enough now that you can take just them and beat anything. I think however that in most lists having more than 1 squad is useless without finding a way to guarantee first turn charges for 2 or more squads of them.
Eihnlazer wrote: As I mentioned in another post, stealer spam in a kraken list will win you games. They are cheap enough and fast enough now that you can take just them and beat anything. I think however that in most lists having more than 1 squad is useless without finding a way to guarantee first turn charges for 2 or more squads of them.
I wonder when players will start realizing this and actually put some counters into the lists
Astmeister wrote: I did not say, you should spam stealer shock. However, 15 GS with TS are way better anti-tank than 6 Tyrant Guard with CC.
More responding to the general trend that Genestealers are being touted as the solution to most assault problems, honestly. Might've came across a bit hostile from my current sleep deprivation.
No Problem. I am also annoyed by the Tyranid lists with 50%+ Genestealers. I would personally never use more than 2x20, because I like variety in my lists.
Astmeister wrote: I did not say, you should spam stealer shock. However, 15 GS with TS are way better anti-tank than 6 Tyrant Guard with CC.
More responding to the general trend that Genestealers are being touted as the solution to most assault problems, honestly. Might've came across a bit hostile from my current sleep deprivation.
No Problem. I am also annoyed by the Tyranid lists with 50%+ Genestealers. I would personally never use more than 2x20, because I like variety in my lists.
If you are running a glass-cannon unit across the board, then you definitely should spam them. Or at least bring some hormagaunts along.
Astmeister wrote: I did not say, you should spam stealer shock. However, 15 GS with TS are way better anti-tank than 6 Tyrant Guard with CC.
More responding to the general trend that Genestealers are being touted as the solution to most assault problems, honestly. Might've came across a bit hostile from my current sleep deprivation.
No Problem. I am also annoyed by the Tyranid lists with 50%+ Genestealers. I would personally never use more than 2x20, because I like variety in my lists.
If you are running a glass-cannon unit across the board, then you definitely should spam them. Or at least bring some hormagaunts along.
I don't say that it will not be effective, but for me it is boring.
What is the best mortal wound generation? Per point? Reliability (i.e.a Mawloc could cause 50 MW... if it was surrounded by 100's of single model units, which is unrealistic aha!).
Biovore - 1MW on average, 36pts, good range, no LOS.
Mawloc - Are patterns of deployment to deny deep strikers beneficial to Mawlocs (so some good internal synergy here, punish one or the other type of deployment?). 105pts.. 1.3MW per unit.
How many targets hit makes the Mawloc good or excellent. Obviously none or 1 is okay, 10 is amazing. If we call the Biovore good, logic would say 3+ units would be great.
Sporecyst - Similar to a Mawloc but doesn't scale however can deliver a Mucolid or 3 spore mines. Can also attack with a Spore Node attack but the range is less than the minimum deep-strike distance so this is more of a zoning tool (+ you gain the benefit of 5 BS5+ Deathspitters to boot).
Mucolid / Sporemine = Not reliable MW generators given the speed and minimum deep strike distances. Still, useful to cheaply fill out slots, great zoning / extremely cheap distraction units. Consequence free!
Misc = Carnifexes, cheap gaunts with caustic blood, venomthropes etc. I'd say all of these are superficial
What is the best mortal wound generation? Per point? Reliability (i.e.a Mawloc could cause 50 MW... if it was surrounded by 100's of single model units, which is unrealistic aha!).
Biovore - 1MW on average, 36pts, good range, no LOS.
Mawloc - Are patterns of deployment to deny deep strikers beneficial to Mawlocs (so some good internal synergy here, punish one or the other type of deployment?). 105pts.. 1.3MW per unit.
How many targets hit makes the Mawloc good or excellent. Obviously none or 1 is okay, 10 is amazing. If we call the Biovore good, logic would say 3+ units would be great.
Sporecyst - Similar to a Mawloc but doesn't scale however can deliver a Mucolid or 3 spore mines. Can also attack with a Spore Node attack but the range is less than the minimum deep-strike distance so this is more of a zoning tool (+ you gain the benefit of 5 BS5+ Deathspitters to boot).
Mucolid / Sporemine = Not reliable MW generators given the speed and minimum deep strike distances. Still, useful to cheaply fill out slots, great zoning / extremely cheap distraction units. Consequence free!
Misc = Carnifexes, cheap gaunts with caustic blood, venomthropes etc. I'd say all of these are superficial
Thoughts?.
Biovores have to hit, this makes it 0,5 MW on average (plus half spore).
Spoletta wrote: Biovores have to hit, this makes it 0,5 MW on average (plus half spore).
Aha very true, sorry.
However got me thinking... Fire twice stratagem? Not sure if that is worthwhile but could be good, especially with a Kronos unit. (May be a terrible idea!)
Niiai wrote: I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.
I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.
I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.
If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)
The Fex with HVC and DS might outperform the Warriors, but they are at least much cheaper with only arount 90 points for 3 and give SitW with Synapse. They also have twice the amount of attacks in CC with 3+ to hit, so they can stand their ground more easily.
Btw I did the calculation for Leviathan Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard in 6 inch. If my calc is correct, they have a chance of not getting any wound of 64% due to having double the 6+++ FNP with the Tyrant guard. This is when you even have to use the 4++ roll because someone is shooting with a LasCan or something like that.
So in short: Leviathan Hive Tyrants with Tyrant Guard close are really durable!!!
Does the Hive Tyrant get to take its FNP before the Guard have to try to intercept? Both trigger when a unit "loses a wound", so the sequencing rules would seem to come into play. Most of the time, it will be your opponent's turn and they'll get to pick which happens first.
Biovores might be a coin flip to hit, but they are uniquely guaranteed to have an impact. You hit, wham, a Devastator just died. You miss, something’s going to have to shoot the Spore mine before it goes ahead and hits anyway.
Thirty Behemoth Hormagaunts look pretty good. Average up to five MWs. Against a target with 3+ save, probably 9W total with Toxin Sacs.
Solid candidate for a Pheremone Trail alpha strike, actually. Not hard to knock down a tank to that sort of state. Bounding Leap has great potential for being a similar headache for gunners as Warptime Warp Talons. I’m going to be on the lookout for opportunities to Adrenaline Surge - that’s potentially an extra foot of movement; never mind the attacks, I’m just happy to shut down a load of units’ shooting.
Niiai wrote: I thought you said best, not 3rd best. It must be my dyslexia.
I amm all for warriors. I even thought they where good in the index before the decrase in devourers and upgrade and increase in wennom cannon. Swords even became cheaper.
I do think it is a fallocy not counting the prime though. The prime is not so impressive by himself. It has a bad range option, deathspitter onlyr , and only rending claws or boneswords in CC, and no psykick powers. Big brother tyrant, neuronthrope and broodlord all outperform him. You are only taking prime if you take warriors. And only 15/18 of them before he starts becoming cheap. You need a considerable amount of your list dedicated for it. Mind you warriors has a lot going for them. But the other heavy weapon platforms you can often just jam into any list more or less.
If you want a small 3 man group of 2 regular and 1 venom cannon you can just take the carnifex with deathspitters and heavy venom cannon. Even though it is exspensive you can argue the same deathspitters can fire at something else. The flat 3 damage is very nice on the heavy venom cannon. (Although exoshrine with damage stratgem can do the same.)
The Fex with HVC and DS might outperform the Warriors, but they are at least much cheaper with only arount 90 points for 3 and give SitW with Synapse. They also have twice the amount of attacks in CC with 3+ to hit, so they can stand their ground more easily.
Btw I did the calculation for Leviathan Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard in 6 inch. If my calc is correct, they have a chance of not getting any wound of 64% due to having double the 6+++ FNP with the Tyrant guard. This is when you even have to use the 4++ roll because someone is shooting with a LasCan or something like that.
So in short: Leviathan Hive Tyrants with Tyrant Guard close are really durable!!!
Does the Hive Tyrant get to take its FNP before the Guard have to try to intercept? Both trigger when a unit "loses a wound", so the sequencing rules would seem to come into play. Most of the time, it will be your opponent's turn and they'll get to pick which happens first.
Oh, I thought you could simply first take the FNP and afterwards the interception. Maybe you are right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Biovores might be a coin flip to hit, but they are uniquely guaranteed to have an impact. You hit, wham, a Devastator just died. You miss, something’s going to have to shoot the Spore mine before it goes ahead and hits anyway.
Thirty Behemoth Hormagaunts look pretty good. Average up to five MWs. Against a target with 3+ save, probably 9W total with Toxin Sacs.
Solid candidate for a Pheremone Trail alpha strike, actually. Not hard to knock down a tank to that sort of state. Bounding Leap has great potential for being a similar headache for gunners as Warptime Warp Talons. I’m going to be on the lookout for opportunities to Adrenaline Surge - that’s potentially an extra foot of movement; never mind the attacks, I’m just happy to shut down a load of units’ shooting.
30 Hormagants have to be within 1 inch of the enemy unit to do this trick after the charge. I think that is very unlikely in most of the cases.
Also the benefit of 30 horms won't be the damage as much as it will be the ability to engage a huge front, tie units and prevent firing/disengaging (in some cases).
Agreed about the Biovores. Excellent for zoning and for the impact they can have, for such a cheap unit.
Eihnlazer wrote: As I mentioned in another post, stealer spam in a kraken list will win you games. They are cheap enough and fast enough now that you can take just them and beat anything. I think however that in most lists having more than 1 squad is useless without finding a way to guarantee first turn charges for 2 or more squads of them.
Ehh I don't know about that. You can really just take stealers and win a lot of games I think. I think a lot of tournament lists will be taking something like 100 genes with a lot of neurothropes and malanthropes.
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
They can be quite good Tank Hunters with Crushing claws coming in as deep strike. The only problem is that Genestealers are much better in melee even against tanks.
Against T8 3+:
6 Tyrant Guard with CC - 9.9 wounds , 29.7 points per wound
20 Genestealers - 8.9 wounds, 27 points per wound
20 GS with toxin sacs - 17.8 wounds, 18 points per wound
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Problem is tyrant guard are meant to die if they do their job properly so I'm not sure about spending points on them. You can always drop them in and ignore their ability to keep a tyrant alive but then then you need that 9" charge or they are dead. Out in the open they are not difficult to kill and with crushing claws they are not getting near any tanks - but as a distraction they may work and soak up some high S shooting. I might give them a try but not convinced. For anti-tank I'm still leaning towards 18 hive guard to be honest but getting those models is a slow burner!
Ordered 2 boxes last night. Hope they are still in stock at GW website. Go for it! They also got a deathleaper.
Niiai wrote: No I think warriors are good. But the claim that they are the cheapest source of good high S ranged shooting just can't be right.
The usual suspects:
Hive guard electric gun. But only range 24.
Exochrine tends to be numero uno.
Tyranofex is better vs T8, exochrine is better vs every one else.
Hive guard impaler cannon has very good flexabilaty vs targets out of line of sight.
Venom warrior cannon clock in around hive guards depending on how many warriors you use to divide the price on the prime. And if you only count the venom cannon and the heavy bolter shoots other things.
Stratagems:
Warriors and Hive guards can take the double shooting. Exochrine can take extra wound.
I would also like to point out that your basic 3 warriors squad, 2 bolters and 1 venom cannon can be recreated in the carnifex with 2 S7 bolters and the heavy venom cannon. It can have BS3+ and the hard to hit.
It is hard to argue one is better then the other although the Exochrine comes out better then most, and most lists want one group of infantery for the double shooting.
I'm really not to big on the exocrine anymore. It's got great firepower - but is essentially an immobile gun platform with 36 inch range. Pretty much what this means is you have to go first or it's dead. I really don't consider that very competitive at all. The Tyrano at least has 48" range and can move and shoot if it really has to - it should never really need too though - where an exocrine is almost never in range of the targets you want to shoot at if your opponent is smart - and moving and shooting is not an option with 6 shots bs5+ on the move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: How survivable is the leviathan swarmlord? Although I suppose the point is moot, even with Swarmy you want to cast the 5+ feel no paint, don't you?
But the 5+ is always best suitet for the guards as they always take the wound.
So swamlord with 3+4++6+++ hive guards 4+5++. Is it better then before?
Positioning:
Tyranids usually have so many drops, trying to get as many CMP as possible. This lets you place the exoshrine late. Usualy the 36" should put you within the target you want to shoot. Even if you loose your prime targets Exichrine is so cost effective vs most targets, it can garuantee shoot something you want to shoot.
The 48" range of the tyranofex negates some of these, but you do not want to move your tyranofex, same way you do not want to move your exoshrine. Your prime target can just move out of LOS.
I do not feel positioning goes a lot into the Tyranofex favour.
Survivabillaty:
Both the exoshrine and tyranofex are T8 3+ save. Tyranofex has 2 more wounds so that is points in it favour. But if the argument is 'they will just be shot down' when it is one of the most durable thing in the codex you can lay that argument at any unit that does not come in from reserves, or do not need LOS.
The survivabilaty argument is slightly in the tyranofex favour by 2 wounds, and some superior range. But I hardly think this compensates for the exoshrines superior damage ouput vs all targets but T8.
I’m going to be running a spore mine mortal wound spam brigade list. Hive fleet Jormungandr.
1 Broodlord
3 Neurothropes
2 squads of 3 rippers
2 squads of 12 genestealers /w Talons/toxin sacs/acid maw
1 squad of 10 termagants /w fleshborers
1 squad of 20 termagants /w devourers
3 squads of 1 Pyrovore
3 squads of 1 Mucolid Spore
1 squad of 3 spore mines
3 squads of 3 Biovores
1 Trygon Prime /w Infrasonic Roar and Insidious Threat warlord trait
1 Harpy /w stranglethorn cannons
3 sporocysts /w deathspitters
The idea is to maintain complete zoning control of the board while using spore mines, Mucolid spores and smites to take out key targets, and a big deepstriking blob to shred all the bubble wrap so bombs and genestealers can hit the juicy stuff. Sporocysts and mucolids drop down as a curtain to box in the enemy army, and together with the biovores just pump out as many spore mines as possible and flood the field. The Trygon brings in the Devilgaunts and pyrovores to take out any chaff, and genestealers hit the vehicles and characters. The pyrovores shield the gaunts from any melee units, the sporocysts give the rest of the army free reign to grab objectives, and there’s too many spore mines choking the field for the enemy to move effectively.
Survivabillaty:
Both the exoshrine and tyranofex are T8 3+ save. Tyranofex has 2 more wounds so that is points in it favour. But if the argument is 'they will just be shot down' when it is one of the most durable thing in the codex you can lay that argument at any unit that does not come in from reserves, or do not need LOS.
They're some of the most fragile things in the codex. The Exocrine in particular pays a very high price per wound and is incredibly vulnerable to lascannons, and your suggestion for dealing with their short range was to deploy them far forward in your zone when you have more drops than your opponent and so are unlikely to go first. T8 is nice but it doesn't actually protect against the most common anti-tank weapons, and they're still more vulnerable than a typical Hive Tyrant to overcharged plasma.
Survivabillaty:
Both the exoshrine and tyranofex are T8 3+ save. Tyranofex has 2 more wounds so that is points in it favour. But if the argument is 'they will just be shot down' when it is one of the most durable thing in the codex you can lay that argument at any unit that does not come in from reserves, or do not need LOS.
They're some of the most fragile things in the codex. The Exocrine in particular pays a very high price per wound and is incredibly vulnerable to lascannons, and your suggestion for dealing with their short range was to deploy them far forward in your zone when you have more drops than your opponent and so are unlikely to go first. T8 is nice but it doesn't actually protect against the most common anti-tank weapons, and they're still more vulnerable than a typical Hive Tyrant to overcharged plasma.
Okay.. interesting.
36" range vs 16" move + 18" range guns.
12 Str 7 ap 3 shots (or 8 hits or 4 wounds or 6.68 damage, vs a 'tank") Or... 2.2 damage with a flyrant. Both do the same damage vs Marines.
So the double shots are good but.. not hugely essential? Now the Tyrant can DS and has a 4++, not to mention the physic powers.
Survivabillaty:
Both the exoshrine and tyranofex are T8 3+ save. Tyranofex has 2 more wounds so that is points in it favour. But if the argument is 'they will just be shot down' when it is one of the most durable thing in the codex you can lay that argument at any unit that does not come in from reserves, or do not need LOS.
They're some of the most fragile things in the codex. The Exocrine in particular pays a very high price per wound and is incredibly vulnerable to lascannons, and your suggestion for dealing with their short range was to deploy them far forward in your zone when you have more drops than your opponent and so are unlikely to go first. T8 is nice but it doesn't actually protect against the most common anti-tank weapons, and they're still more vulnerable than a typical Hive Tyrant to overcharged plasma.
Okay.. interesting.
36" range vs 16" move + 18" range guns.
12 Str 7 ap 3 shots (or 8 hits or 4 wounds or 6.68 damage, vs a 'tank") Or... 2.2 damage with a flyrant. Both do the same damage vs Marines.
So the double shots are good but.. not hugely essential? Now the Tyrant can DS and has a 4++, not to mention the physic powers.
Tyrant does a lot of damage in CC. 1 round of MRC and smite does more damage than an exocrine.
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Is this accurate? Does this indeed grant 2 Fnp saves. The way the way it reads the sequencing would be as follows:
Swarmlord takes wounds, fails saves
Swarmlord takes Feel no pain save and fails
Then Body Guard rule comes into play and on 2+ TG takes Mortal Wound
Now the model gets another FnP to avoid?
This seems really good.
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
Only if you use them at full effect and deepstrike 6 of them with 3 (and maybe swarmlord) flying hive tyrants within 3 inch. Make sure they're jormungandr and give them catalyst.
Shooting at the hive tyrant? That's a 3+/4++ save with a 5+ catalyst/feel no pain backup on a 2+(look out sarge!)
Shooting at the tyrant guard? That's a 2+ with 5+ catalyst/feel no pain
With deep striking hive tyrants it's possible to use them again as a hive tyrant bomb.You do have to make sure you got the space to do so.
Give them devourers and the really clear the bubble wrap.
It might be interesting to use Tyrant Guard in a Leviathan detachement next to a Hive Tyrant. The HT can roll a 6+ FNP for every wound, transfer it to the TG and they again can take the 6+ FNP for every wound. This makes the overall unit very durable.
Is this accurate? Does this indeed grant 2 Fnp saves. The way the way it reads the sequencing would be as follows:
Swarmlord takes wounds, fails saves
Swarmlord takes Feel no pain save and fails
Then Body Guard rule comes into play and on 2+ TG takes Mortal Wound
Now the model gets another FnP to avoid?
This seems really good.
I think that is how it works. You can combine with the core rulebook 6+++.(Not on the swarmlord obviusly.) However, if it is your opponents turn I do believe he gets to choose the order so he shurly oprs for the 2+ hive guard first. Also, probably put the 5+ on the hive guards. A smart opponent will shoot your guards first.
As for your question, they are in range for synapse yes.. And no, you cant make the conga line per the rules in the codex. It states when you spawn 10 to replace ones that died in an existing unit they need to all be within 6 of the tervigon
Max distance to maintain a conga line is 8". since 6" deployment+2" coherency.
No its 6. I didn't clarify, but the book states all models have to be wholy within 6 inches of the tervigon. any that are not are destroyed.
Deploy wholly within 6" of the Tervigon. Then you have 2" to be in coherency of the existing unit.....so the unit can be 8" away from the Tervigon
This leaves me with about 160 points to play with.
I was also tempted to make my second battalion Kronos, or Jormungandr, which would allow me to deep strike a few things in the Trygon tunnel. But Jorm doesn't wholly benefit the genestealers.
I HATE starting 40 genestealers on the table. It feels like a recipe to get cleared if i go second. I really could use a way to work in that second Trygon.
changemod wrote: Do Tyrant Guard have much use now? I notice their attacks have gone up to 3 each if nothing else. Could maybe be loose terminator equivalents in Jormungandr with their higher toughness and save plus crushing claws?
Only if you use them at full effect and deepstrike 6 of them with 3 (and maybe swarmlord) flying hive tyrants within 3 inch. Make sure they're jormungandr and give them catalyst.
Shooting at the hive tyrant? That's a 3+/4++ save with a 5+ catalyst/feel no pain backup on a 2+(look out sarge!)
Shooting at the tyrant guard? That's a 2+ with 5+ catalyst/feel no pain
With deep striking hive tyrants it's possible to use them again as a hive tyrant bomb.You do have to make sure you got the space to do so.
Give them devourers and the really clear the bubble wrap.
Also fun: make the tyrant guard 'hydra' and after the die the can 'revive' at any board edge outside 9 inch of the enemy. flyrants fly toward the 'new' tyrant guards and enjoy a new round of devourer shooting with full tyrant guard backup.
Eihnlazer wrote: I'd drop a few gaunts and get a tyranocyte for the swarmlord.
really no good to just walk him up the field without tyrant guard to soak wounds.
So, local meta includes significant los blocking terrain. he's probably safe turn 1 except from Tau shooting. but if they focus on swarmy i'll probably curb them ugly as they'll be within charge range guaranteed turn 2 or my turn 1.
Also, i'll have an alternate list for the tournaments that disallow forgeworld. Probably a second neurothrope in place of the malanthrope.
This leaves me with about 160 points to play with.
I was also tempted to make my second battalion Kronos, or Jormungandr, which would allow me to deep strike a few things in the Trygon tunnel. But Jorm doesn't wholly benefit the genestealers.
I HATE starting 40 genestealers on the table. It feels like a recipe to get cleared if i go second. I really could use a way to work in that second Trygon.
Take a lictor? You could deep strike 1 unit for 1 command points and the other unit...hide it? then you have like 120 points. Take tyrant gaurd.
This leaves me with about 160 points to play with.
I was also tempted to make my second battalion Kronos, or Jormungandr, which would allow me to deep strike a few things in the Trygon tunnel. But Jorm doesn't wholly benefit the genestealers.
I HATE starting 40 genestealers on the table. It feels like a recipe to get cleared if i go second. I really could use a way to work in that second Trygon.
Well...Kraken gives some fall back tricks, so you might replace Swarmy with a Winged Tyrant...? You can use Infestation nodes for the Stealers, so thats all good. I might run x2 x30 Broods of Hormies, and some Rippers for grabbing/holding. Then I'd run the Trygon Tunnel based on what I'm facing across the table. Worth giving a play or two to figure it out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And then you should have enough points for something cool...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think an Acid Spray Krakon Tyrannofex is the ultimate distraction carnifex.
Marmatag wrote: I suppose. Definitely hurts to lose a CP to DS.
Edit. And if i'm bringing lictors I may as well just go brigade. I dunno maybe not the worst idea.
Lictor is only 45 points. Hey if it kills a character you get 3 command points for 1 so it's a net gain Yeah...that will never happen but at least it is a cheap way to get genestealers in the fight.
Xenomancers wrote: What are you guys spending command points on - I think 9 is plenty.
If you don't have 2 trygons, you need 1 to deepstrike a unit of GS.
You need 1 to double advance a unit turn 1. You MAY want to use 1 to double move+advance another unit.
You want 2 to double tap.
That's 3-5 down turn 1, without rerolling any dice with CP. I generally do 1-2 a turn. So probably 4-6 CP turn 1.
Add 2 to interrupt the opponents counter charge between your first and second turn, which is fairly likely if you managed to tie up enough units or lock a unit completely in.
Turn 2 you may or may not do a double advance. You will probably double tap shooting again. You may use caustic blood, or used it during their turn. You may use adrenaline surge for 3 cp.
Basically, if you're playing an aggressive nids list, you can burn through 9 cp in two turns very, very easily. Personally, I'd love to have 12+ CP, but our brigade units are less than desirable.
I think spending a point to seize is a waste. You go from a 1/6 chance to a 1/3 chance.
When I build a list I normally notate on the bottom what stratagems i have in mind. The ones I seem to like most often are...
Feeder tendrils 1(Lictor, Broodlord, or GS kill character regain d3 CP, this is free chance, make sure any Cthullu models are hunting characters. Also, hopefully the malanthrope will get this as well.)
Caustic blood 1 (start of fight phase, each model removed, on 6+ deals mortal wound, used when swarms of gants tarpit a high value model)-
Adrenaline rush 3 (unit can fight again, would not really do this unless i think it would be a game winning move, perhaps with genestealers against a character, combo with feeder tendrils to try and get some of them back. Potentially all of the CP.)
Pheremone Trail 1 (lictor taxi DS)
Death Frenzy 2 (Character fight again if slain, if swarmy or CC Hive Tyrant dies)
Single Minded Annihilation 2 (shoot twice, Devilgant double tap, not worth it on other things imo. 180 dice is gonna kill some gak!)
Pathogenic slime 2 ( +1 damage of shooting , use for high wound enemy units on Dakkafex, Tyranofex, Dakka Tyrant, combo with above Devil turn 1 to really get alphastirke )
Voracious appetite 1cp- character or monster can reroll failed wounds in fight phase; use if I fluff all my wounds with swarmy, Trygon, HT. With this we should never be spending a command point to reroll a single wound.
Rapid Regenearation 2 (model regains D3 wounds- HT or Swarmy)
Metabolic Overdrive 1 cp- move and advance 2x, cannot charge or shoot, on a 1 take a mortal wound. Good for rapid repositioning of units, maybe swarmy or Flyrant
Overrun 1 cp- unit destroys enemy in fight phase, instead of consolidate can move and advance as normal.
The various HF Stragagems where applicable, particulary Kraken, kronos, jormungandr.
I always take 2 battalions so I get at least 9, if i want to go cheap i can get 12-15 cp.
This leaves me with about 160 points to play with.
I was also tempted to make my second battalion Kronos, or Jormungandr, which would allow me to deep strike a few things in the Trygon tunnel. But Jorm doesn't wholly benefit the genestealers.
I HATE starting 40 genestealers on the table. It feels like a recipe to get cleared if i go second. I really could use a way to work in that second Trygon.
This is what I would do, very close to what I am looking at for a Kraken fleet. The Warlord Trait allows you to Fallback and fly where he is needed if you want to ensure a unit gets to fight first without having to fallback and get shot at again from overwatch. Also, since he can fly, after he falls back he can shoot, land to give the aura buff, then charge into enemy which wont get overwatch if they are already locked in combat. Note, on a 6 this guy does 7 damage with his Sword. Tyrant gaurd go with Swarmy, gave them AG b/c I had 3 pts leftover.
Battallion Detachment -Kraken-3CP -
HQ Flyrant with Lashwhip & Bonesword, Devourers w/ Brainleech worms Relic: Reaper of Obliterax, Warlord Trait: One Step Ahead , Pyshic Scream, Catalyst, Toxin Sacs, Pincer Tail 1 196 DS Swarmlord-Pyschic Scream, Onslaught 1 300 OB
Troops
Hormagaunts 30 30 150 OB
Hormagaunts 30 30 150 OB
Rippers 3 33 DS
Xenomancers wrote: What are you guys spending command points on - I think 9 is plenty.
If you don't have 2 trygons, you need 1 to deepstrike a unit of GS.
You need 1 to double advance a unit turn 1. You MAY want to use 1 to double move+advance another unit.
You want 2 to double tap.
That's 3-5 down turn 1, without rerolling any dice with CP. I generally do 1-2 a turn. So probably 4-6 CP turn 1.
Add 2 to interrupt the opponents counter charge between your first and second turn, which is fairly likely if you managed to tie up enough units or lock a unit completely in.
Turn 2 you may or may not do a double advance. You will probably double tap shooting again. You may use caustic blood, or used it during their turn. You may use adrenaline surge for 3 cp.
Basically, if you're playing an aggressive nids list, you can burn through 9 cp in two turns very, very easily. Personally, I'd love to have 12+ CP, but our brigade units are less than desirable.
true - but I think that's just good use of command points. They are best to use when squads are at full strength. So spending points quickly just makes sense. I agree with you. Brigade options are not very good. I'd rather had a much stronger army with 9 command points than a weaker one with 13 or so.
Got my first post-Codex game in today! Old One Eye was AMAZING. Death Guard opponent baited him out with some Nurglings. Behemoth not being inclined to restraint, he broke ranks and stomped on them for First Blood.
My Warlord, the nearest target? He took a LOT of incoming dakka. Catalyst helped enormously, so much so that when the Deathshroud charged him, he tanked their strikes (Adaptive Biology seems deceptively strong) and then (after downing three Command Points of spinach) proceeded to eat the lot of them. Nom!
Pretty glad my primary fleet is Behemoth colours. Probably going to main it on my other one as well tbh, maining Word Bearers with some Berzerkers and Khornate Terminators and Possessed has made me fond of re-rolled charges.
So when people are using multiple different Hive Fleets across their detachments, are y'all painting them to reflect this? I'd raise an eyebrow if a fleshthing tried to tell me that their three devastator squads with blue armour and inverted omega insignia are actually imperial fists, as is their chaplain with half his face missing. Not best practice for WYSIWYG clarity, and probably not popular with TOs...
Marmatag wrote: I suppose. Definitely hurts to lose a CP to DS.
Edit. And if i'm bringing lictors I may as well just go brigade. I dunno maybe not the worst idea.
SOUNDS LIKE A FAMILIAR CONVERSATION, HUH?!?
haha.
But seriously, the hardest part is fitting enough CP and alternate delivery methods while keeping the damage up.
Hahahaha!!! Yes.
If i didn't have to take 3 heavy and 3 elite it would be easy. I can drop the malanthrope for a neurothrope and fit a second trygon. Or drop swarmy for a flying ht and just bring another trygon. I hate doing that though, because Swarmy lets me get insane moves, akin to alpha legion, if i go first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And It doesn't matter to me about mixing hive fleet with no paint job for it. This is the first time we got chapter tactics. You cannot seriously expect people to repaint literally hundreds of models.
I did not know where to place my first post but here it seems right. I'm pretty new to the 40k and can't understand what's good and what's not. I would like to start with Tyranids and would like to go for 1000 or 1500 point models this weekend.
At the moment i will play against mortar artillery astra militarum.
As soon as I know the game and tyranids better, it will be easier construct an army. But at the moment I feel uneasy. Can the experienced swarm players give me recommendations? What are the musthave units of Tyranids? What's good against the mortar strategy?
I did not know where to place my first post but here it seems right. I'm pretty new to the 40k and can't understand what's good and what's not. I would like to start with Tyranids and would like to go for 1000 or 1500 point models this weekend.
At the moment i will play against mortar artillery astra militarum.
As soon as I know the game and tyranids better, it will be easier construct an army. But at the moment I feel uneasy. Can the experienced swarm players give me recommendations? What are the musthave units of Tyranids? What's good against the mortar strategy?
Tyri
Hummm...you are ina tough spot buddy because AM mortar spam is about the most busted thing in this game. It's also very good against tyranids. So it's a tough road. Take a look at this list in this thread though - most of them are made knowing AM might be your opponent. Lots to learn in this thread.
I did not know where to place my first post but here it seems right. I'm pretty new to the 40k and can't understand what's good and what's not. I would like to start with Tyranids and would like to go for 1000 or 1500 point models this weekend.
At the moment i will play against mortar artillery astra militarum.
As soon as I know the game and tyranids better, it will be easier construct an army. But at the moment I feel uneasy. Can the experienced swarm players give me recommendations? What are the musthave units of Tyranids? What's good against the mortar strategy?
Tyri
First thing i would do is try to get ahold of any old nid army up for sell on Ebay to get you started.
The old Swarm box was a really good deal too, but GW is out of stock atm.
You will never go wrong with winged hive tyrants, or nurothropes for HQ's. Only get a tervigon if you plan on getting alot of gaunts (it is pretty strong now with jorm fleet trait). Genestealers are very strong atm with a broodlord backing them up.
Honestly any of the units are good, but not nessecarily without other certain units to back them up. Pick how you want your army to play (i.e. shooty, melee, deepstrike) and build based on that.
I did not know where to place my first post but here it seems right. I'm pretty new to the 40k and can't understand what's good and what's not. I would like to start with Tyranids and would like to go for 1000 or 1500 point models this weekend.
At the moment i will play against mortar artillery astra militarum.
As soon as I know the game and tyranids better, it will be easier construct an army. But at the moment I feel uneasy. Can the experienced swarm players give me recommendations? What are the musthave units of Tyranids? What's good against the mortar strategy?
Tyri
Hi. There are few 'must have' units in the current codex. It is very balanced internally. There are how ever some units that have a strong synergy together.
Most units in the book are OK in melee. Some are very good in melee, and a few are good at shooting.
In general you will be very god at killing troops. The 'bottle necks' tend to be killing big things. Thing with many wounds, high T and good saves.
If you want shooting vs big things there usual suspects are:
For melle the usual suspects are
Genstealers (one of the best units in the codex, an iconic warhammer unit)
Hive tyrants with rending claws
Warriors with boneswords
Raveners (bad saves, no synapse)
Vs big blobs of infantery you can clear these with:
Warrior deathspitters
Termagaunts with devourers
Flyrant with double devourers
Carnifex with devourers
You might also want some smite. Smite is a vital cog in 8th edition. Good damage, hard to target.
Zoanthropes
Neurothrope
Hyve Tyrant/flyrant
You can also grab some 'distraction carnifexes'. A relativly high threath that will split your opponents focus.
Bare boned carnifex
Mawlock
Screamer Killer
Chaff
Spore Mines
Objective Grabbers
Rippers
Gargoles
Termagaunts
If you have any pet units you want to use, that is a good place to start and then build your army to support them
I'm confused. Can't you just do this in the codex, since Hive Tyrants can still take Monstrous Bio-Weapons and that list still includes Monstrous Rending Claws?
I can get behind this. I'm not sold on swarmlord yet, but, he's definitely in the mix. I think his viability is heavily tied to the amount of LOS blocking terrain on the board.
I don't like splitting the horms into 3 units, but, it saves you 66 pts on rippers, and that's a big deal.
So when people are using multiple different Hive Fleets across their detachments, are y'all painting them to reflect this? I'd raise an eyebrow if a fleshthing tried to tell me that their three devastator squads with blue armour and inverted omega insignia are actually imperial fists, as is their chaplain with half his face missing. Not best practice for WYSIWYG clarity, and probably not popular with TOs...
I am just going to either buy some custom unit markers/tokens, or just use some rhinestones or other small token like thing to denote my different fleets, if I decide to go hybrid.
The difference between the Nids codex painting one color and playing another fleet vs the Space Marines, is that the various SM chapters each have their own codex. If Behemoth had a codex, then leviathain, then kronos and so on then it would be comparable.
If you want to try different fleets they force you to paint a different scheme, what if you don't like it? Besides, Tyranids have splinter fleets, so just field as a splinter fleet under XXx parent fleet. IE i am playing a purple and bone colored fleet, under behemoth. Fluff wise, the biomass they are consuming is from a world like pandora with lots of glowing flora. Done.
All that being said, I think having a clear set of unit markets to denote the fleets for your opponent would be nice and helpful.
What can we do to safely activate Adaptive Biology? Minefields, Perils of the Warp, and Mysterious Objectives are very niche options. We have the entirety of our Codex, GSC, and most of AM to work with. Double points if it’s not something that’s clearly got to get FAQ’d.
Can any math whiz figure out how many devilgaunts are needed to kill mortarian with the double shot and pathogenic slime strategmes? Basically wondering if 30 and those strategems has a shot.
buddha wrote: Can any math whiz figure out how many devilgaunts are needed to kill mortarian with the double shot and pathogenic slime strategmes? Basically wondering if 30 and those strategems has a shot.
30 devilgaunts with the strats active will do about 90 hits, 33wounds, of which he will save 22ish so your dealing about 22 dmg which he then FNP's about 7-8 of. Sooooo your looking at about 14-15 wounds of damage on average to him, which I suppose isn't bad but not enough to kill him.
So when people are using multiple different Hive Fleets across their detachments, are y'all painting them to reflect this? I'd raise an eyebrow if a fleshthing tried to tell me that their three devastator squads with blue armour and inverted omega insignia are actually imperial fists, as is their chaplain with half his face missing. Not best practice for WYSIWYG clarity, and probably not popular with TOs...
I am just going to either buy some custom unit markers/tokens, or just use some rhinestones or other small token like thing to denote my different fleets, if I decide to go hybrid.
The difference between the Nids codex painting one color and playing another fleet vs the Space Marines, is that the various SM chapters each have their own codex. If Behemoth had a codex, then leviathain, then kronos and so on then it would be comparable.
Now, that’s not entirely true.
Codex SM has got seven chapters in it, just like our seven hive fleets. Wolves and the Angels are more unusual outliers, but the Codex compliant (ish) chapters have long been Ultramarines palette swaps. A few versions ago, Codex Space Marines actively encouraged you to say that your yellow-armoured Captain with Fist iconography leading an army of the same was a proxy Vulkan Hestan, bestowing his Salamanders-themed bonuses to every unit’s heat and hammer based weapons. And had a sniper squad led by undercover Telion.
SM collectors who’d converted their off-brand characters in good faith went through the adjustment period. Though it’s absolutely true that, for Tyranid players, this is a much bigger adjustment - given the horde nature of many armies, probably a bigger one than the one for people who’d had an army of Death Guard Havocs and Obliterators for six months before 8ed threw that right out the window. But their bitter taste is a lot fresher than our long standing collections.
At least our unique characters aren’t HF specific. We dodged that axe. And I think those who want a diverse gene pool in their swarm can get along without mass repaints; look at the Cryptus units from 7ed - they’ve been given a marking that distinguishes them from the rest of Leviathan. That sort of thing should do a fine job of making clear you your opponent ‘these are the ones who hide in tunnels and get cover everywhere, these are the ones who re-roll their charges’ and so on. And - perhaps more importantly - make sure we don’t accidentally get the incompatible synapse networks mixed up.
Thank you very much. I know thats hard against mortation. But in my trygame i won with orks bc of more movement. I think as long as i dont play on tournament level its pretty even. The only thing is i cant come behind the lines bc of 100 infantry. So i have to catch the missionpoints i think. I know it would be better if i would play another fraction but tyranids are my love first i saw them. I will paint and play something i like.
You mean the older boy with gargoiles? I can get one in shop here. Yesterday they had one in stock.
Do i have to decide shooting OR melee? A mix isnt that good?
And what are pet units?
Thanks again, really great to get this support here!
I have a question; how do we leverage the Leviathan hive fleet mechanics and strategems to make a competitive list? I have about 1000 points of painted nids and this hive fleet just doesn't seem to lend itself to any particularly viable strategy. Behemoth, kraken, Kronos, and even jorm all seem to take an aspect of our dex and channel it into a design strategy.
CDShaddock wrote: I have a question; how do we leverage the Leviathan hive fleet mechanics and strategems to make a competitive list? I have about 1000 points of painted nids and this hive fleet just doesn't seem to lend itself to any particularly viable strategy. Behemoth, kraken, Kronos, and even jorm all seem to take an aspect of our dex and channel it into a design strategy.
I appreciate the guidance
Well, I suggest you look at running MSU Warriors for lots of Synapse, then run a combo of Big Bugs, and large Broods of Gaunts..even Stealers can benefit for some extra FNP...right? I think I'd try to leverage things like Caustic Blood, and maybe even run a Tervigon. Remember that Hive Tyrants are Always in Synapse as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So spitballing...
That should be around 1500-1600, plenty of room for extras.
Automatically Appended Next Post: y toss in a Trygon Prime (has Synapse) and a couple of Carnifexen of some sort....that should be a pretty good list, just modify to taste.
So a quick question.. can I use the Pheromone trail stratagem to bring in one unit or multiple units... then can I use the same stratagem multiple times (in the same phase)?
CDShaddock wrote: I have a question; how do we leverage the Leviathan hive fleet mechanics and strategems to make a competitive list? I have about 1000 points of painted nids and this hive fleet just doesn't seem to lend itself to any particularly viable strategy. Behemoth, kraken, Kronos, and even jorm all seem to take an aspect of our dex and channel it into a design strategy.
I appreciate the guidance
Leviathan is most suited to lots of big, shooty flyers. Its only real competition for flying Tyrants is Behemoth. Flying Tyrants are already pretty good, and this makes them 20% more durable. If you're expecting to have to deal with screens such that there won't be anything that your monstrous rending claws will do much against on turn 1 anyway, it's the obvious pick for a list that's going to deep strike a bunch of devourer or devourer/claw Tyrants. You spend turn 1 dealing with the screens and trying to charge, and then on turn 2 you can get to the juicy stuff. The stratagem just sort of naturally becomes available as you're charging stuff with flying Tyrants and then whatever else you have.
I would avoid most non-Tyrant monsters with Leviathan. Anything else that doesn't fly will generally prefer to be Jormungandr. Upgrading your armor save is better unless you were getting hit by enough AP to completely negate your armor, and it's still just as good if you've got a 4+ save and you're getting hit with AP-3. But Leviathan also has a place for walking Tyrants because their invuln save is so good.
And then lots of other stuff is perfectly happy to be Leviathan. Biovores don't really care what they are. It's Leviathan or Kraken for Zoanthropes unless you're going for an expensive Jorm bomb. Warriors are small model count infantry and so can get cover easily, then benefit from the 6+ FNP. You also keep the Leviathan bonus even when you advance or charge, unlike the Jorm bonus, so if you don't need that much speed it seems like a reasonable option, such as when you're going to use the Swarmlord to double move something anyway.
Razerous wrote: So a quick question.. can I use the Pheromone trail stratagem to bring in one unit or multiple units... then can I use the same stratagem multiple times (in the same phase)?
Would like this clarifying.
Thanks!
Well...in Matched most strats are one a turn. But I figure you could play it the next turn, if the Lictor is still alive.
Razerous wrote: So a quick question.. can I use the Pheromone trail stratagem to bring in one unit or multiple units... then can I use the same stratagem multiple times (in the same phase)?
Would like this clarifying.
Thanks!
Well...in Matched most strats are one a turn. But I figure you could play it the next turn, if the Lictor is still alive.
Crap - so Trygon Taxi is required. Hmm.. (I'd like to deliver 2x11 Genestealers. I feel that's good punch (1500pt games).
I can get behind this. I'm not sold on swarmlord yet, but, he's definitely in the mix. I think his viability is heavily tied to the amount of LOS blocking terrain on the board.
I don't like splitting the horms into 3 units, but, it saves you 66 pts on rippers, and that's a big deal.
The thing I don't like about it is this. Ideally you will be dropping the 30 dakka gant in 1 tyrgon and 20 gene in the other - swarmy advaces up and gets the genes into as many units as possible. that bit is solid. 60 horms really won't be doing much though - the front line is annihilated and the rest of the army is spread out and likely our of range of the hormas turn 2. I'm no expert but I don't like the flow. I think mid field shooting would work better than a bunch of hormas but you basically can't afford ir because of smarmy and 2 trygons.
Is a Tyrannocyte fairly needed to use Swarmlord effectively to benefit let’s say a group of Genestealers and a Broodlord coming up from a Trygon + Lictor? Or is it safe to drop the Tyrannocyte?
Also, for a x18 Genestealers and Broodlord strike, would 2 Trygons be better than a Trygon and Lictor? I could only fit the latter, as two Trygons was a bit expensive.
Niiai wrote: What about tyranofex with fleshborer hive, 1 extra damage and the +to wound stratagem?
Moving;
20 shots, hits 6.66, wounds 3.33, saves 2.22 so 1.11 unsaved, doubles to 2.22, 5+++ brings it down to 1.47
[EDIT] Fleshborer is HEAVY, not assault
Standing still;
40 shots, hits 20, wounds 10, saves 6.66 so 3.33 unsaved, doubles to 6.66, 5+++ brings it down to 4.44
[EDIT] Not BS3, only BS4.
Neither this nor devilgaunts will work. He will just pop the -1 to hit stratagem.
CDShaddock wrote:I have a question; how do we leverage the Leviathan hive fleet mechanics and strategems to make a competitive list? I have about 1000 points of painted nids and this hive fleet just doesn't seem to lend itself to any particularly viable strategy. Behemoth, kraken, Kronos, and even jorm all seem to take an aspect of our dex and channel it into a design strategy.
I appreciate the guidance
I find that Leviathan supports a lot of different strategies, with my favourite being big monsters (like Haruspex) and gargoyles. Many don't understand how powerfull the leviathan stratagem is, increasing damage by 33% on a target is really a lot, and the 6+++ gives us that little bit of thoughness that some of our monsters lack. Leviathan works really well with everything that assault and doesn't have Scything talons or rerolls in general (nothing hurts more than leviathan Genestealers).
The thing I don't like about it is this. Ideally you will be dropping the 30 dakka gant in 1 tyrgon and 20 gene in the other - swarmy advaces up and gets the genes into as many units as possible. that bit is solid. 60 horms really won't be doing much though - the front line is annihilated and the rest of the army is spread out and likely our of range of the hormas turn 2. I'm no expert but I don't like the flow. I think mid field shooting would work better than a bunch of hormas but you basically can't afford ir because of smarmy and 2 trygons.
My experience has been the exact opposite. Hormagaunts are absolutely critical for tying up huge swathes of the enemy army to protect your Genestealers from assaults and shooting. Like.... every game I've ever played of 8th edition the hormagaunts were critical. No other unit would have done the job I asked of them, the way they did it, except the one time I used them to eat a berserker charge.
Neither this nor devilgaunts will work. He will just pop the -1 to hit stratagem.
First off, trying to shoot morty to death with anything besides an exocrine, rupturefex or hive guard is probably a waste of time. I was just doing the math because someone asked me to. Best bet is to use smite, scream, horror, paroxysm, and charge him with a mix of GS and Tyrants/Trygons (If you manage to get the debuffs off on him, otherwise just a big blob of stealers).
Second, I've got the death guard codex open in front of me, I have no idea what stratagem you're talking about. Do you mean the psychic power? Because that's something we have a very real ability to do something about. -1 to his cast and deny means he has less than a 50% chance to get it off.
In general Morty is scarier to us than Magnus, just because of his massive horde clearing potential.
The thing I don't like about it is this. Ideally you will be dropping the 30 dakka gant in 1 tyrgon and 20 gene in the other - swarmy advaces up and gets the genes into as many units as possible. that bit is solid. 60 horms really won't be doing much though - the front line is annihilated and the rest of the army is spread out and likely our of range of the hormas turn 2. I'm no expert but I don't like the flow. I think mid field shooting would work better than a bunch of hormas but you basically can't afford ir because of smarmy and 2 trygons.
My experience has been the exact opposite. Hormagaunts are absolutely critical for tying up huge swathes of the enemy army to protect your Genestealers from assaults and shooting. Like.... every game I've ever played of 8th edition the hormagaunts were critical. No other unit would have done the job I asked of them, the way they did it, except the one time I used them to eat a berserker charge.
Neither this nor devilgaunts will work. He will just pop the -1 to hit stratagem.
First off, trying to shoot morty to death with anything besides an exocrine, rupturefex or hive guard is probably a waste of time. I was just doing the math because someone asked me to. Best bet is to use smite, scream, horror, paroxysm, and charge him with a mix of GS and Tyrants/Trygons (If you manage to get the debuffs off on him, otherwise just a big blob of stealers).
Second, I've got the death guard codex open in front of me, I have no idea what stratagem you're talking about. Do you mean the psychic power? Because that's something we have a very real ability to do something about. -1 to his cast and deny means he has less than a 50% chance to get it off.
In general Morty is scarier to us than Magnus, just because of his massive horde clearing potential.
Yeah sorry, it was a power, this certainly makes things a bit less harsh for us. With an invul 4+ though i think that sprayfex would be better than rupturfex for this.
Finally got my codex. OP will see a small rush of updates this weekend since now I can type stuff up without swapping between a bunch of tabs for references.
What are people making of these Genestealer node things? They feel a bit gimmick, but I can see scope for them surrounding a bunch of T-fexes and Biovores who’ve got a screen of Gaunts to add a counter to deep strikes. Like a squad of Berzerkers in a Rhino next to all Havocs, but more flexible and cheaper.
lindsay40k wrote: What are people making of these Genestealer node things? They feel a bit gimmick, but I can see scope for them surrounding a bunch of T-fexes and Biovores who’ve got a screen of Gaunts to add a counter to deep strikes. Like a squad of Berzerkers in a Rhino next to all Havocs, but more flexible and cheaper.
I'm really not sure how to count these things. The Genestealer rules reference them as possibly "friendly", and they're obviously "models", so they'd probably count as "enemy models" for purposes of restricting deep-strikers. It seems inarguable that RAW they can control objectives. But of course they don't have profiles. If I get first turn and move a unit within 9" of your infestation node, do I automatically get first blood? Models only exist in units, right?
I feel like a FAQ is probably going to say that these don't count for anything.
Hmm. Technically, if they do indeed count as your models, there’s even a question an opponent could raise about your own use of a node in your first turn and removing it from play - is that first blood?
Common sense suggests they are simply counters, but who knows how that will turn out in the FAQ.
buddha wrote: Can any math whiz figure out how many devilgaunts are needed to kill mortarian with the double shot and pathogenic slime strategmes? Basically wondering if 30 and those strategems has a shot.
Pathogenic slime is only for Monsters. I had this idea as well. At best your getting the double tap and rolling 180 dice.
lindsay40k wrote: What are people making of these Genestealer node things? They feel a bit gimmick, but I can see scope for them surrounding a bunch of T-fexes and Biovores who’ve got a screen of Gaunts to add a counter to deep strikes. Like a squad of Berzerkers in a Rhino next to all Havocs, but more flexible and cheaper.
I plan to use them to keep my genestealers off the table, and then bring them on using Pheromone Trail strat alongside Deathleaper.
Deathleaper, because he's a character, and with his movement and / or deployment options, you'll be able to drop that brick of genestealers pretty much wherever you'd like.
The thing I don't like about it is this. Ideally you will be dropping the 30 dakka gant in 1 tyrgon and 20 gene in the other - swarmy advaces up and gets the genes into as many units as possible. that bit is solid. 60 horms really won't be doing much though - the front line is annihilated and the rest of the army is spread out and likely our of range of the hormas turn 2. I'm no expert but I don't like the flow. I think mid field shooting would work better than a bunch of hormas but you basically can't afford ir because of smarmy and 2 trygons.
My experience has been the exact opposite. Hormagaunts are absolutely critical for tying up huge swathes of the enemy army to protect your Genestealers from assaults and shooting. Like.... every game I've ever played of 8th edition the hormagaunts were critical. No other unit would have done the job I asked of them, the way they did it, except the one time I used them to eat a berserker charge.
Neither this nor devilgaunts will work. He will just pop the -1 to hit stratagem.
First off, trying to shoot morty to death with anything besides an exocrine, rupturefex or hive guard is probably a waste of time. I was just doing the math because someone asked me to. Best bet is to use smite, scream, horror, paroxysm, and charge him with a mix of GS and Tyrants/Trygons (If you manage to get the debuffs off on him, otherwise just a big blob of stealers).
Second, I've got the death guard codex open in front of me, I have no idea what stratagem you're talking about. Do you mean the psychic power? Because that's something we have a very real ability to do something about. -1 to his cast and deny means he has less than a 50% chance to get it off.
In general Morty is scarier to us than Magnus, just because of his massive horde clearing potential.
Yeah sorry, it was a power, this certainly makes things a bit less harsh for us. With an invul 4+ though i think that sprayfex would be better than rupturfex for this.
Conventional wisdom is to not give Raveners a gun other than a spinefist, but they don't really have worse BS than anyone else. Is it really that bad an idea to stick those sternum mounted devourers on?
So when people are using multiple different Hive Fleets across their detachments, are y'all painting them to reflect this? I'd raise an eyebrow if a fleshthing tried to tell me that their three devastator squads with blue armour and inverted omega insignia are actually imperial fists, as is their chaplain with half his face missing. Not best practice for WYSIWYG clarity, and probably not popular with TOs...
I am just going to either buy some custom unit markers/tokens, or just use some rhinestones or other small token like thing to denote my different fleets, if I decide to go hybrid.
The difference between the Nids codex painting one color and playing another fleet vs the Space Marines, is that the various SM chapters each have their own codex. If Behemoth had a codex, then leviathain, then kronos and so on then it would be comparable.
Now, that’s not entirely true.
Codex SM has got seven chapters in it, just like our seven hive fleets. Wolves and the Angels are more unusual outliers, but the Codex compliant (ish) chapters have long been Ultramarines palette swaps. A few versions ago, Codex Space Marines actively encouraged you to say that your yellow-armoured Captain with Fist iconography leading an army of the same was a proxy Vulkan Hestan, bestowing his Salamanders-themed bonuses to every unit’s heat and hammer based weapons. And had a sniper squad led by undercover Telion.
SM collectors who’d converted their off-brand characters in good faith went through the adjustment period. Though it’s absolutely true that, for Tyranid players, this is a much bigger adjustment - given the horde nature of many armies, probably a bigger one than the one for people who’d had an army of Death Guard Havocs and Obliterators for six months before 8ed threw that right out the window. But their bitter taste is a lot fresher than our long standing collections.
At least our unique characters aren’t HF specific. We dodged that axe. And I think those who want a diverse gene pool in their swarm can get along without mass repaints; look at the Cryptus units from 7ed - they’ve been given a marking that distinguishes them from the rest of Leviathan. That sort of thing should do a fine job of making clear you your opponent ‘these are the ones who hide in tunnels and get cover everywhere, these are the ones who re-roll their charges’ and so on. And - perhaps more importantly - make sure we don’t accidentally get the incompatible synapse networks mixed up.
Tokens/Beads/Colored bingo chips. I'm painting up mine to to be a backwards Jorm but if I feel the neeed to split hive fleets (which I may do) I'm not splitting colors. I do like to enter painting comps for tourneys (as I have no hope in actually beating people!) so a army that's all one color appeals to most people way better visually then one that's like a rainbow.
I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
I'm thinking that super metabolic advance could put her most anyplace you want...Krakon? roll 3D, pick one, then double move...sounds zippy. 
Though, after all that she's just a distraction carnifex. 
But I may end up running a "pure" Hive Fleet list. 
I think both the Acid Spray, and the big gun (Rupture) are usable builds. The Rupture wants to sit and shoot, the Spray wants to advance then camp...so "style", and Hive Fleet will make a diff...I suggest Magnets. 
Remember that Hive Tyrants are Always in Synapse as well.