xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Onslaught?
That's not going to help you, you still have advanced, so no cover for your fex.
I think the best thing about warriors now is their medioricity... they are effective but don't draw fire like our top tier units so they get ignored and if they do get focused down they are drawing fire from our big guns.... really nearly perfect for the points.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
How is that plenty, given a 24" neutral zone? Too easy for too many armies to stay outside the 25" threat range.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
How is that plenty, given a 24" neutral zone? Too easy for too many armies to stay outside the 25" threat range.
I don't think I've ever once met someone who didn't deploy a sizeable chunk of their army on the line. Partly due to space requirements, partly due to needing their units to close in to be effective too.
I guess it's loosely plausible that a very elite gunline army might manage to castle further back.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
How is that plenty, given a 24" neutral zone? Too easy for too many armies to stay outside the 25" threat range.
I don't think I've ever once met someone who didn't deploy a sizeable chunk of their army on the line. Partly due to space requirements, partly due to needing their units to close in to be effective too.
I guess it's loosely plausible that a very elite gunline army might manage to castle further back.
Only an idiot would deploy that close to tyranids.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
How is that plenty, given a 24" neutral zone? Too easy for too many armies to stay outside the 25" threat range.
I don't think I've ever once met someone who didn't deploy a sizeable chunk of their army on the line. Partly due to space requirements, partly due to needing their units to close in to be effective too.
I guess it's loosely plausible that a very elite gunline army might manage to castle further back.
Only an idiot would deploy that close to tyranids.
Or someone that isn't a pure gunline army and is confident that they can outmelee us, which isn't hard.
I can get behind this. I'm not sold on swarmlord yet, but, he's definitely in the mix. I think his viability is heavily tied to the amount of LOS blocking terrain on the board.
I don't like splitting the horms into 3 units, but, it saves you 66 pts on rippers, and that's a big deal.
So, fun thought about that though - i might start bringing them in squads of 19, with the new ITC missions. One of the secondary awards 2 points for killing a unit of 20+, and only 1 point for 10+. So, dropping 1 model out of each squad would lower my opponents scoring opportunities.
In the Bay Area, you mostly see standard symmetrical ITC, except with significant LOS blockers in the center of the board. Usually it's 1 big piece. The place I play at mainly uses actually 2 big pieces. For instance, in a competitive game, i was able to have units in the center of the board acting and shooting, while also being protected from a squad of Cheese Reapers. I don't know how this list would fair in a meta where there's less LOS blocking terrain - in that instance, i would drop the Swarmlord for another Flying Hive Tyrant, and use the points to add in some Ripper Swarms for a cheap throwaway unit to score Recon points every turn.
With this many models, I should be able to max out 12 points on secondaries (or get super close), and if the game goes to 3 turns, I should expect 3 points for killing units, 3 points for objectives, and at least 2 more points for "more objectives" and "more units killed," putting my baseline score at 20. In a 3 turn game that should be enough to win, because I am equipped to control the board, and outside of killing blobs of units, I don't really make scoring easy for my opponent.
I like the Swarmlord for one of the reason alpha legion is popular, the ability to guarantee a turn 1 charge if you go first is pretty nice. If people actually don't have a huge footprint to block alphas I can 100% get a squad of genestealers on the table into melee turn 1 with him. Let's assume I advance 5" every time. 8+5 = 13", with Swarmlord, and doubling the advance (which I can do twice, because it's 2 separate phases), gets me to a 36" Genestealer move turn 1. I'd have to trail them a bit on the first move to make sure Swarmlord can keep up, but it's a guaranteed, 100%, first turn charge with Genestealers. Anyone without screening units will basically lose to me if i go first. Pre-codex, this move would have be expected (8+3.5)*2 = 23" move. Codex gets me an extra foot of movement out of the Stealers. If the Swarmlord survives to turn 2, I can beta strike Genestealers into melee from the Trygon because they can DS and move with Swarmlord. So it's entirely possible that i've got 30-40 genestealers up in their business going into turn 3, with squads of Hormagaunts controlling the board. It won't work against a lot of armies, like Tau, or Guard, but it will against Eldar, Harlequins, Space Marines, Orks...
Being 100% honest I didn't have 60 hormagaunts, and 40 stealers, pre-codex, so i've got some painting to do before I can make this happen. I'm going to do some light playtesting with the Swarmlord and see how he does until my force is ready.
I'm really liking a Kraken Trygon Prime for delivering dakkagants. For 38 more points you get synapse, shadow, and character status, which lets you put the -1 to hit Kraken relic on hit.
Kraken doesn't help him that much, but if you are running a Kraken detachment your malenthrope or Venomthropes get the advance bonus so it is reasonable to get the gants and even possibly the Trygon into the bubble. Best I can tell, the relic stacks with the Venoms-if you go first you could in theory position such that the Prime is -2 to hit, the gants are -1, and still do some damage with the 180 shot double tap.
So I just played a game and used the venom cannon sporocyte. It seemed pricy but it was a power point game so I thought wtf I'll give it a shot. He was great I dropped him 9.1" away from his lines and blasted away at his tacticals. It dominated that area and just kept spawning mines every round. Getting to reroll 1's kronos hive fleet makes it deadly. Plus the extra mortal wound gun at 9" kept the enemy away. It really complemented my hive guard in the backfield behind it. At 179pts though I'm not sure it's worth it or not outside of a power game. 104 with the deathspitters I think is the way to go most games espushuly if you want to use multiple.
I have painted a leviathan army. And that is what I am going to play. But inspiered by the codex I thought maybe I should include some Kronos unist. I bought a pack of zoanthropes and converted up 3 zoanthropes.
However, the Neuronnthrope is best as a leviathan unit? It has the 3++, benefits from the 6+++, can heal itself back with smite. It is flying so it can trigger the leviathan strataggem. It does not benefit from Kronos rules, and the only benefit it ads is the deeper shadow abilaty.
What makes for a good Kronos addon to the army? I am on a budget money vice. I am thinking mayby 1 neoronthrope and 3 biovores that I can convert from hive guards. That is a cheaqp detachments. The Neuronthrope can have the Norn Crown to deal with synapse problems.
Other sugestions are also welcome. That is why I am asking.
xmbk wrote: I see a lot of people talking Dakkafex in Jormungandr. I just don't see it, as you pretty much have to advance first turn in order to get into range. Is there a trick I am missing?
Why would you need to advance? 18+7 is plenty of range to find a viable infantry target in most games.
How is that plenty, given a 24" neutral zone? Too easy for too many armies to stay outside the 25" threat range.
I don't think I've ever once met someone who didn't deploy a sizeable chunk of their army on the line. Partly due to space requirements, partly due to needing their units to close in to be effective too.
I guess it's loosely plausible that a very elite gunline army might manage to castle further back.
I always find it interesting to see how different this game is in different areas. Trust me, it's a lot more than loosely plausible. Even a mobile list like Tau or Eldar will start outside 25", at least from Dakkafexes. Just don't see Jorm as "plausible" for them.
Niiai wrote: I have painted a leviathan army. And that is what I am going to play. But inspiered by the codex I thought maybe I should include some Kronos unist. I bought a pack of zoanthropes and converted up 3 malanthropes.
However, the malanthrope is best as a leviathan unit? It has the 3++, benefits from the 6+++, can heal itself back with smite. It is flying so it can trigger the leviathan strataggem. It does not benefit from Kronos rules, and the only benefit it ads is the deeper shadow abilaty.
What makes for a good Kronos addon to the army? I am on a budget money vice. I am thinking mayby 1 neoronthrope and 3 biovores that I can convert from hive guards. That is a cheaqp detachments. The Neuronthrope can have the Norn Crown to deal with synapse problems.
Other sugestions are also welcome. That is why I am asking.
I'm confused, are we talking about the Malanthrope (FW floaty brain bug, 10power) or Neurothrope (former Zoanthrope unit leader, 4power)?
Neurothropes seem to be really good mid-range support units. Re-rolling 1’s gives them a casting roll of 7.8 - almost as good as a +1 to cast.
They’re the cheapest Synapse unit, and one that has CHARACTER benefits.
Casting their support spell doesn’t stop them from Smiting as well, with 24” range.
If you want a safe pair of hands for denying Slay The Warlord, they’re a cheap option to sit back and watch Swarmlord or OOE run pell-mell into the fray.
Really, it seems to be a solid addition to any Hive Fleet, and I’d avoid overthinking how each Hive Fleet’s special tricks might affect it. Being slow and having little melee capability beyond Smite and Psychic Scream, it’s a poor candidate for Leviathan’s Stratagem - that particular trick wants Gargoyles, Flyrants, or our Flyers.
It would certainly be a neat addition to a Kronos artillery battery. But don’t forget that it would only give Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour coverage to other Kronos units.
Neurothropes seem to be really good mid-range support units. Re-rolling 1’s gives them a casting roll of 7.8 - almost as good as a +1 to cast.
They’re the cheapest Synapse unit, and one that has CHARACTER benefits.
Casting their support spell doesn’t stop them from Smiting as well, with 24” range.
If you want a safe pair of hands for denying Slay The Warlord, they’re a cheap option to sit back and watch Swarmlord or OOE run pell-mell into the fray.
Really, it seems to be a solid addition to any Hive Fleet, and I’d avoid overthinking how each Hive Fleet’s special tricks might affect it. Being slow and having little melee capability beyond Smite and Psychic Scream, it’s a poor candidate for Leviathan’s Stratagem - that particular trick wants Gargoyles, Flyrants, or our Flyers.
It would certainly be a neat addition to a Kronos artillery battery. But don’t forget that it would only give Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour coverage to other Kronos units.
Well you can get a unit of 3 warriors with ST and Rending Claws for only 66 POints. So that is actually are cheapest synapse unit. Not to mention it has 9 wounds vs neurothrope 5, and A neruonthrope is gonna have a 24" synapse bubble, where if you space out the warriors 2" apart you are getting 28" ish maybe slightly bigger with base sizes. If you want guns you can go Devourers instead of RC and its 72 points.
Warriors seem to be a hidden gem with lots of utility.
@ Niiai Keep in mind the Norn crown only helps with Instinctive Behavior, NOT Synapse so the Norn Crown Has limited use IMO.
Kronos Neuronthrope with 3 biovores as the Heavy Support detachment. Norn Crown on Neuronthrope. (Or perhaps not, and I can move for that nice -2 to hit for Spore mines.)
I keep seeing this and i think its important to clarify.
Synapse does not have a 24" range. IB shuts off with 24" of a synapse creature but you are still very much susceptible to moral with all your very low ld units with lots of models and poor survivability.
Synapse is 12" if you want to automatically pass moral which is mostly what it's used for.
Very few units even need their ib turned off (exocrines/hive guard). Things that will be charging will be charging the closest units 90% of the time anyway.
Marmatag wrote: Let's assume I advance 5" every time. 8+5 = 13", with Swarmlord, and doubling the advance (which I can do twice, because it's 2 separate phases)
I agree with everything you said but this. Kraken stratagem is in the movement phase only, sadly.
Lance845 wrote: I keep seeing this and i think its important to clarify.
Synapse does not have a 24" range. IB shuts off with 24" of a synapse creature but you are still very much susceptible to moral with all your very low ld units with lots of models and poor survivability.
Synapse is 12" if you want to automatically pass moral which is mostly what it's used for.
Very few units even need their ib turned off (exocrines/hive guard). Things that will be charging will be charging the closest units 90% of the time anyway.
Yeah but on the other hand, most artillery isn't very vulnerable to morale, if at all. The requirements to babysit those units are pretty simple as a result, given you don't need to be very close.
Lance845 wrote: I keep seeing this and i think its important to clarify.
Synapse does not have a 24" range. IB shuts off with 24" of a synapse creature but you are still very much susceptible to moral with all your very low ld units with lots of models and poor survivability.
Synapse is 12" if you want to automatically pass moral which is mostly what it's used for.
Very few units even need their ib turned off (exocrines/hive guard). Things that will be charging will be charging the closest units 90% of the time anyway.
Yeah but on the other hand, most artillery isn't very vulnerable to morale, if at all. The requirements to babysit those units are pretty simple as a result, given you don't need to be very close.
I agree. Im just saying having synapse is different from not having ib. What a neurothrope provides is not a 24" synapse bubble. Its a 12" synapse bubble and any ib guys within 24 can ignore ib. We have a lot of new players joining the thread looking for nid advice and i dont want this all confusing.
Razerous wrote: Does the Onslaught & Metabolic overdrive psychic power stack / synergise?
A(ny) unit moving twice, plus 2 advances (rolling an extra D6 for Kraken) then a charge is fantastic.. and costs a one-per-turn psychic power + 1 CP.
Thoughts?
I'd say no. Overdrive specifically says you can't charge if you use it.
Hmm because Onlaught = can do things (shoot etc) even if moved or advanced. However Overdrive is you can move again but can't do charging.
So even though, with Onslaught, you can charge even though you may have advanced, the moving & advancing for a second time from Overdrive still prevents you from charging.
Played against Ad Mech tonight. He quit before his second turn. Hammer and anvil deployment, had hormagaunts within 12" of his board edge on my turn 2, tying up Castellans, with a handful of Genestealers still alive tying up some more kastellans after murdering Cawl.
I have a question. If I use the Tervigon's "Spawn Termagants" ability can I then play Pheromone Trail to cause that new unit to spawn anywhere I have placed a Lictor?
BrotherGecko wrote: I have a question. If I use the Tervigon's "Spawn Termagants" ability can I then play Pheromone Trail to cause that new unit to spawn anywhere I have placed a Lictor?
Traceoftoxin wrote: Played against Ad Mech tonight. He quit before his second turn. Hammer and anvil deployment, had hormagaunts within 12" of his board edge on my turn 2, tying up Castellans, with a handful of Genestealers still alive tying up some more kastellans after murdering Cawl.
Speed kills, boys.
Thats easy now when other players are not build to witstand this kind of armylist.Same ad mech list would also struggle against 3x 20 GSC genestealers coming out of hiding. Shooty armies always needed bubble wrap/speed bumps but now more than before.
Wanna kill a primarch or anything really in one turn?
Trygon 30 devilguants in next to what you want to go bye. Shoot 90 times into it rerolling 1s on wounds. Then use the shoot again stratagem. Next turn morty charges said squad, removes 18 gaunts and you use caustic blood and kill him. If you don't kill him, he's holding on by a thread because on average you are looking at 14 wounds.
Since i am mostly playing Kraken for its mobility and the fallback mechanics i just prefer over the others, i wondered if Gargoyles could do some more work than in prefious editions.
They all can fall back, shoot and charge each turn. Blinding venom will help a bit to negate the cc echo.
They can also hop over screens and block the retreatroute for enemy units. Maybe combine with flyrants.
In this context harpy and crone could be given a try too.
I will make up my mind for a possible list, and try it.
Suggestions?
My math says about 10 wounds after caustic blood. He has a 5+++, that also stops mortal wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaBraken wrote: Since i am mostly playing Kraken for its mobility and the fallback mechanics i just prefer over the others, i wondered if Gargoyles could do some more work than in prefious editions.
They all can fall back, shoot and charge each turn. Blinding venom will help a bit to negate the cc echo.
They can also hop over screens and block the retreatroute for enemy units. Maybe combine with flyrants.
In this context harpy and crone could be given a try too.
I will make up my mind for a possible list, and try it.
Suggestions?
I think they're in direct competition with horms, but horms are troops. This matters for list building and obj stealing.
Besides that, I think fly is a huge advantage, and 4 more move is fantastic. They lose the massive pile in and consolidate, and cost an additional 16%.
If you can make them fit in a list, use them. I've had such good results with horms that I haven't felt the need to make them fit, but I think they can do the same job comparably.
Traceoftoxin wrote: [...]
I think they're in direct competition with horms, but horms are troops. This matters for list building and obj stealing.
Besides that, I think fly is a huge advantage, and 4 more move is fantastic. They lose the massive pile in and consolidate, and cost an additional 16%.
If you can make them fit in a list, use them. I've had such good results with horms that I haven't felt the need to make them fit, but I think they can do the same job comparably.
I would take 1 full squad of gargoyles and homagaunts in addition for testing. In fact i could field 2 full squads of gargoyles, but one would be a full metal mayhem. I dont want to move this....
Edit:
The deepstrike mechanics now for gargoyles gives more flexibility, and can equalize the lack of the hormagaunts consolidation move. Has to be tested, but i think it can work.
Traceoftoxin wrote: [...]
I think they're in direct competition with horms, but horms are troops. This matters for list building and obj stealing.
Besides that, I think fly is a huge advantage, and 4 more move is fantastic. They lose the massive pile in and consolidate, and cost an additional 16%.
If you can make them fit in a list, use them. I've had such good results with horms that I haven't felt the need to make them fit, but I think they can do the same job comparably.
I would take 1 full squad of gargoyles and homagaunts in addition for testing. In fact i could field 2 full squads of gargoyles, but one would be a full metal mayhem. I dont want to move this....
Edit:
The deepstrike mechanics now for gargoyles gives more flexibility, and can equalize the lack of the hormagaunts consolidation move. Has to be tested, but i think it can work.
I don't think the deepstrike is equivalent at all. If anything, I think the extra 4" of movement and fly is equivalent. DS is completely situational, and in the current meta almost all armies have some sort of counter DS tool that makes deploying on the board stronger, so you can abuse them. I can't imagine using DS very often on gargoyles, I'd way rather have them start on the field for flexibility. With kraken you'd have 16-18" of movement most of the time, which puts you right on top of the enemy. Hell, gargs get more mileage out of the double move stratagem, as they have more movement and fly. Unfortunately you can't catalyst before turn 1 movement, so no way to mitigate the damage unless you went leviathan, which would be a waste, imo.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Played against Ad Mech tonight. He quit before his second turn. Hammer and anvil deployment, had hormagaunts within 12" of his board edge on my turn 2, tying up Castellans, with a handful of Genestealers still alive tying up some more kastellans after murdering Cawl.
Speed kills, boys.
Thats easy now when other players are not build to witstand this kind of armylist.Same ad mech list would also struggle against 3x 20 GSC genestealers coming out of hiding. Shooty armies always needed bubble wrap/speed bumps but now more than before.
I think you misunderstand. I used his speed bumps to move myself further forward. He has to place screens to stop my deep strikes, so I use his screens to move further.
3x20 GSC genestealers would be very unlikely to get as far as the hormagaunts did. For one, on hammer and anvil, with screening units, you will be deploying 9" from his deployment line, at best. There is a decent chance that you will not roll a 5 or 6 on 4 dice (3 with reroll on one, this is the same odds as rolling 4x3+), leaving you exactly (or worse off) than deep striking tyranid GS, all for 25% more per model.
Sure, on a 6 you have a GS unit that deploys 9" away, gets 9-14" of movement, followed by charge, but that is not consistent, you are not likely to be fearless moving that far, and you are giving up a huge number of viable benefits for being <Hive Fleet>.
It's gambling with half of your army, a completely feast or famine playstyle, with almost no flexibility. On top of that, if you're using your charge to spread out massively and pile into the rest of their army with genestealers, you're not actually hitting anything with a hammer unit and it's going to get counter-assaulted and wiped out. Hormagaunts do the same thing, for 1/3 the cost.
For the same cost as 20x GSCGS you can bring 60x hormagaunts. When the mission is to just tie things up, why would you pay for GSCGS?
I haven't seen anyone bring enough small arms fire to kill 60/80 genestealers in one turn, especially if you have -1 to hit them and catalyst on one squad. With swarmlord backing them up you will be in the opponents lines either turn 1 or 2 depending on how far back he deployed.
Its funny cause if they focus on killing swarmlord then the stealers will murder them. if they kill stealers they might take out 40-50 of them at most and you should still have at least one full squad and some spares along with swarmy and a broodlord into their ranks.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I've had such good results with horms that I haven't felt the need to make them fit, but I think they can do the same job comparably.
How do you use your horms? Any advice?
I'm seeing lots of folk talk about screening units and I can see the logic. I've already been using deep-striking units of rippers, held back in reserve, to surprise/disrupt charges or alter movement for a while now.
Between horms and terms.. I think the additional movement and 6" consolidation/pile is could be amazing.. even if I've had 0 experience with the latter mechanic.
I don't really see the niche of Gargoyles honestly: Hormagaunts cover the tarpit role better using their two attacks and improved pile in and consolidation.
I use both.
The gargoyles can DS, inflict some damage with shooting and then attempt a charge. Depending on what they charge they can also count on the blinding venom to limit casualties.
Hormagaunts are nice for frontal engagement, but Gargoyles offer more flexibility in the type of roles they can cover.
In particular with Kraken, they can tarpit one thing for a turn then retreat and tarpit something else. While hormagaunts get useless if their number drops too much (they need numbers for efficent pile in moves), gargoyles are always troublesome, until the last 2 or 3 models.
I got in a test game, and used Pyrovores to surprisingly good effect. Used the big Trygon/devilgant blob, and then jormungandr’d the pyrovores in front. They have 10” flamers so they can shoot out of reserves, and then function as a big wall to prevent charges on the gaunts. Wiping out pyros with shooting takes a huge amount of firepower and charging them is a losing proposition too, they’ll do too much damage compared to what killing them is worth.
1. Best load out for a flying hive Tyrant? I’m thinking talons, devourers and adrenal glands & toxin sacs
2. Are Dimachaerons worth it?
Monstrous Rending Claws are soo much cheaper (i.e. 0 pts) are not that much worse. I would suggest get the cheaper options and buy more things elsewhere.
A lot of points - not sure how resilient they are to the big-bads. Str 10 isn't then impressive looking at the AP value. Just musings...
Traceoftoxin wrote: Played against Ad Mech tonight. He quit before his second turn. Hammer and anvil deployment, had hormagaunts within 12" of his board edge on my turn 2, tying up Castellans, with a handful of Genestealers still alive tying up some more kastellans after murdering Cawl.
Speed kills, boys.
Thats easy now when other players are not build to witstand this kind of armylist.Same ad mech list would also struggle against 3x 20 GSC genestealers coming out of hiding. Shooty armies always needed bubble wrap/speed bumps but now more than before.
I think you misunderstand. I used his speed bumps to move myself further forward. He has to place screens to stop my deep strikes, so I use his screens to move further.
3x20 GSC genestealers would be very unlikely to get as far as the hormagaunts did. For one, on hammer and anvil, with screening units, you will be deploying 9" from his deployment line, at best. There is a decent chance that you will not roll a 5 or 6 on 4 dice (3 with reroll on one, this is the same odds as rolling 4x3+), leaving you exactly (or worse off) than deep striking tyranid GS, all for 25% more per model.
Sure, on a 6 you have a GS unit that deploys 9" away, gets 9-14" of movement, followed by charge, but that is not consistent, you are not likely to be fearless moving that far, and you are giving up a huge number of viable benefits for being <Hive Fleet>.
It's gambling with half of your army, a completely feast or famine playstyle, with almost no flexibility. On top of that, if you're using your charge to spread out massively and pile into the rest of their army with genestealers, you're not actually hitting anything with a hammer unit and it's going to get counter-assaulted and wiped out. Hormagaunts do the same thing, for 1/3 the cost.
For the same cost as 20x GSCGS you can bring 60x hormagaunts. When the mission is to just tie things up, why would you pay for GSCGS?
I'am not making a case for GSC-Genestealers, thats not the point. I'am just pointing out that there are more ways to get into the enemies face (before 8th edition tyranid codex) and the reason that this doesn't work in a competitive setting, is because of the 'get of my lawn'/bubblewrap units. The ad mech player will get that after a few defeats and starts to bring a few astra militarum units including some ratlings that can deploy midfield and take the first tyranid wave and stop it in it's tracks.
Not saying that speed isn't a good thing and hormagaunts could indeed have a place in a successful armylist. But I see a lot of tyranid-armylists that simply torpedo the units forward and just rely on speed and numbers. Just like the 6th edition drop-pod armies, at first it looked scary but when the enemy knows what you're going to do (because it's the only thing you do) it's easy to block.
Had a tourney today. Warzone atlanta missions (http://warzoneatlanta.com/assets/Mission-Primer-2017.pdf). I'll try to get some pics up later. Didn't get many cause playing a 150 model army means I've gotta move move move to get through 5 turns.
My list
Flyrants - 2x Dev, MRC, AG - Kraken Relic, Warlord
Flyrants - 2x Dev, MRC, AG
20 GS 20 GS 30 Horm
Malanthrope
2 Neurothropes
30 Horm
30 Dev gants
6 rippers
Trygon
Trygon
Round 1 vs Tyranids. Player wasn't a pushover, but I don't think he was a really competitive player. Seemed familiar to tournaments and knew the game.
He looked at my list and said, "Oh, wow we're running basically the same list..." and my heart dropped for a moment, I really was not excited to play against myself, it would be a very dangerous matchup. Of course, he finished his sentence with, "... except in reverse!"
He was running full krono shooty nids. Roughly
Malanthrope
6x Neurothrope (1 was warlord)
30 Terms, 15 dev 30 Terms, 15 dev 30 terms, 5 dev
3 Impaler Guard
Exocrine
Exocrine
Mawloc
Barbed Hierodule
Was deployment 1, spearhead assault. 2 objectives each (Give no ground! mission), 1 in your deployment zone, 1 outside your deployment but in your half. Secondary was killing 1/25/50/75% of your opponents total PL. I placed the on in my zone up in a building so mawloc couldnt get to it, just to the right of center by the edge of his half. He placed one just outside his deployment on my left, and one to the right a couple inched back into his deployment.
My usual deployment, GS mid, 30 horms on each side, mal in middle, neuro on each side, rippers up in the building in the back hiding on the objective. Tyrants, trygons, 20 GS and dev gants in reserve. He dployed with the 2 dev heavy term squads a little bit off the deployment line, about 24" away from me. One on each side, bubble wrapping everything. The other 30 man squad in the back so I couldn't come up behind. Neuro warlord and mal middle, both exocrines right behind, 2 neuros on each side and barbed on my left. Hiveguard far back left inside a building. Everything within his big bubble wrap.
I won first turn, but he seized. His shooting was mostly out of range, but exos and hives killed a decent number of stealers.
First turn I only got a 4" advance for GS, but still doubled it, needing an 8" charge. Horms on both sides moved up as usual. I dropped both flyrants right next to the malanthrope in the middle. GS and Devgants came up on left flank opposite the LOW. Hope was to bog it down then smash the gak out of it with smite and trygons.
I failed catalyst, even burning a CP to reroll (Historically I am less than 50% cast rate on catalyst, even with rerolls, and I probably roll same or worse on CP rerolls 70% of the time).Smite picked up a few gants, I think.
Shooting my devourer gants were pathetically bad. I ended up having to pour both flyrants, trygons and all the dev gants and didnt even kill 30 termagants, I think there was 1 left. I shot the termagants again, into a neurothrope. I lost a few because of LOS of the building I had to land near, but I think ~20 were firing. Average is like 5.77 damage.... I got THREE. So that was frustrating.
I then failed all of my charges, including an 8" charge where I rolled a 5 and a 2, which rerolled into a 1.
So, at this point I'm feeling like things aren't great. I have my termagants on his outside objective, my right horms on my right outside obj. No catalyst. ~30 GS left, and staring at almost the full fire effect of kronos that doesn't need to move.
Oh, and a LOW.
So, I got blasted pretty hard. 2 GS from the deployed squad live, I lose about half from the new squad (Which also gets his neuro back to full, huzzah!), non warlord flyrant dies (I make maybe 20% of my 4++), warlord takes like 1-2 damage, right horms get horrored and GS get paroxysmed.
Hierodule charges the GS trygon and the GS. Trygon gets dumpstered, GS roll like gak and only do a little damage.
SO THATS GREAT. One GS squad neutered, one is around half, I think. I'm down a flyrant. Dev gants are at 100%, but I need to stop his shooting ASAP I am down one of my flyrants.. I decide to play really risky, as I think we're teetering between one of us breaking, as he has a massive hole in his bubble wrap now, and I can't take another round of shooting.
I advance the malanthrope towards the right terms, get the right horms into charge range of the same terms, left horms get within charge range of the hierodule no prob. GS fall back towards his malanthrope+exocrines, terms move up. Warlord flyrant jumps over the central building and lands right next to his warlord neurothrope, the malanthrope, an exocrine and the termagants.
I fail catalyst again (With a reroll!), get onslaught off on the Malanthrope, fail the horror. Warlord doesn't manage to do any damage with smite, neuros do a little to the hierodule.
Shooting I put all 30 dev gants into the Impaler guard in cover. I just barely manage to kill two. Flyrant doesn't do anything, I think.
I charge the 2 remaining GS from behind a BLOS ruin into the right term squad to shut off overwatch, and the right horms into it as well, left horms and Trygon into the hierodule, termagants into the 2 neurothropes infront of them, Tyrant into Warlord Neurothrope and malanthrope and the GS into one of the neurothropes near the malanthrope.
With pile in, I manage to put flyrant on exocrine as well, GS on the other exocrine, termagants into the hive guard and the back 30 terms. I have now locked his entire army in combat except 2 neurothropes on his left flank.
I pop reroll wounds for the Trygon and he gets to work. Unfortunately I don't roll great on my damage, he rolls well on catalyst, and I get him down to just around or below half. Flyrant tries to wipe out his warlord, and does a whopping 3 damage. I know, I know, 3++, but needed to remove a smite and hopefully get his warlord while shutting down the exocrine. Termagants on left do jack gak except lock people up. Hormagaunts do maybe 1 or 2 damage to hierodule. Right horms kill ~10 terms, GS there kill 1 or 2, I think the mal whiffed or got knocked out of combat. GS eat a neurothrope I gain 1 CP (2-1 for using strat), pile into malanthrope as well
In return my flyrant gets put down to 8 I think. Both horm squads are fine. Trygon lucks out and only takes a tiny bit of damage. Terms lose a few. I lose both of the 2 man GS squad (Wow) to a handful of termagants. He blows 3 CP to adrenaline surge into my trygon and I survive with like 2 wounds.
Okay, so. Better. Well, not really. I failed to assassinate his warlord, and took a decent bit of damage in return. I still don't have catalyst. His Hierodule is still alive, and my Trygon is not feeling great (Tho I shorted myself the bonus ST attack every time I fought without thinking). I have like 7 GS hanging around with a malanthrope and exocrine, ~25 horms fighting ~15 terms, both my neurothropes, l~25 terms tying up his terms, impaler guard, and 2 zoanthropes. I have plenty of horde left, but very little killing power.
He brings in the mawloc on my Trygon and horms, does 1 to the Trygon and brings it down to 1. The Tyrant gets really messed up from smite spam, going down to like 2 or 3 wounds.
He finally kills the Trygon, and is down to like 5W on the hierodule. He kills like 2 of the GS. The horms do a good bit of damage to the terms, bringing them down to just a few models. At the end of the fight phase my Tyrant has 1W left and he rolls for the malanthropes' aura...
I make it! Huzzah!
So, I have a warlord tyrant who is about to die, 2 neurothropes facing 5 denies and like 5 GS left, for damage dealers. He has a hierodule in the bottom damage bracket, 2 exocrines at full, 1 impaler guard, 5 neurothropes and a mawloc. GEEZ.
We're running low on time, it's the top of 3. I do damage assessment. I'm not killing those Neurothropes. He didnt heal the warlord last round cause he didnt kill models, just beat up my tyrant, so he's still a bit weak. There's ONE termagant left from his left 30 man squad that keeps getting piled into, but not swung on (I keep forgetting it's there and dont declare it). The middle of the board has big ruins that his hierodule can't fit through, but there's enough space for his mawloc. If I can block that he can't get my outside objective. I still have termagants on his, so as long as I keep them conga lined to the neuros he can't take that back from me. The hormagaunts can take his deep objective because there's a large gap where his terms used to be.
I'm going to take all 4 objectives and hold them till 5. That's my plan. I'll get linebreaker, and atlanta allows first blood as long as both players have it in the same round, and we both got a kill in round 2. I should probably try to run my warlord away, but with only 8" I don't think I can get away from his zoanthropes. I'd rather go down swinging, I think I can shoot down his warlord and charge the malanthrope. Maybe deal 5-8 damage before I die.
So, I fall the flyrant back just a tiny bit. Fall back the right horms and move them into the gap the dead terms left. Right around the neurothropes, the obj, the exo and the backfield term squad. Horms fall back off the hierodule and move towards the middle of the board, while still staying able to charge him, the exocrine and malanthrope. The 5 stealers move to try to finish off the hierodule. With 2 smites and the stealers I should kill it. 15 attacks should get me 1-2 rends, and I should do 4 damage with smite. I move one neurothrope to block the mawloc from being physically able to pass between the ruins to get to my outside objective.
Psychic phase.... I don't risk casting on the warlord tyrant. I do 4 wounds to the hierodule, he has 1 left.
Shooting the flyrant whiffs. Guess we gotta get our footy claws dirty.
Assault the flyrant kills the neurothrope. Genestealers COMPLETELY WHIFF. Horms beat up the terms some more, lock everything in place, securing me the objective.
I realize I FORGOT THE MALANTHROPE. He was on the other side of BLOS and so I didn't move or charge with him. feth. That might have been enough to kill one of the other neuros, or pick me up the bonus if he had been present on the warlord. Well gak. I also could have used him to shield flyrant from smites if I had thought of it. Totally fethed myself there because I was rushing as time was coming down.
He swings back with mal and kills my flyrant. .
We have time for 1 more very, very fast turn. Hierodule can't get past neuros, charges and fails to kill 1. Mawloc charges and fails to do anything.
My turn I fall back and grab the objective with my neurothrope. I fail to kill the hierodule with my smites, of course.
Nothing else of note.
I win primary 18-0. I had not focused on secondary, and had only actually killed 2 neurothropes from his army. He had 2 individual terms left from both 30 man squads, 1 hive guard with 1w left, and 1w left on his hierodule. Meanwhile he had killed quite a lot of my army, so he scored big there. He had 2 teritiaries to my 3.
Total final score was like 25-13
Thoughts- I failed SO many important rolls. So. So. So many. Even with rerolls. I just couldn't get anything going this match. My opponent didn't roll amazing or terribly-he had some bad luck offensively with his hierodule, but didnt perils once and only failed maybe 2 abilities despite casting with 4-6 psykers twice a turn for 4 turns. Nothing critical he tried except the hierodule vs my trygon went poorly beyond a regular amount of variance. I really messed up not keeping track of the secondary, if I had been focusing more on it I think I could have put more attacks into the hive guard and finished those 2 termagant squads, which probably would have gotten me 2 more BP. If I had gotten ONE rend on the hierodule across 2 sets of swings with the stealers, that too would have put me up a bracket in the secondary.
It was nice to see how I could handle big screens-they weren't really a problem at all. If I had gotten just my 1 decent turn 1 charge off, the match would have gone much, much differently. Especially if I had gotten a 5 or 6 for the advance and a 8"+ charge, because then I would have been able to get the GS deep in there, possibly locking in place on a termagant. Regardless, it was a good primary for me, there was no way he was leaving his deployment zone, and with a super troops heavy army I have little trouble just shoving people off objectives and claiming them out from underneath them.
Game 2
Patrick McAneeny (ITC #6 SM player)
Playing
Guilleman
Tiggy
JP captain with teeth of terra
5 tac squads with las cannon
6 asscan razorbacks
Stormraven
Mission was 6 objectives (Aggressive recon), where you score them at the START of your turn, you can only score each once (2VP) and if you score an objective AFTER your opponent, you get 3VP. we had 2 objectives in each 4'x2' of the board. Deployment was vanguard. Typical deployment for me. He deployed very far back. He won the roll off and made me go first. I was actually okay with this, as I could advance to midfield and still be more than 24" away. If he wanted to shoot me he would have to move and shoot at -2. Even with rerolls, that means he'll lose 50% of his hits.
I move up into a central building with stealers, horms on flanks, rippers in back like 7" from an objective, hiding. I keep my reserves off. I want him to come to me. 24" is more than close enough for easy charges with stealers.
Catalyst fails. As usual. I have failed 4 of 5 attempts at this point in the tourney.
Turn 1 he moves everything up, mostly swinging left, including the stormraven moving way out in front on my left.
Even with the -2, he rolls pretty well, tons of 5s and 6s, just finishing off the left horm squad and killing a few from the right.
Ouch. More than I thought he'd do. I figured I'd lose ~25 and then slink off with the unit. Not happy I gave up FB, but that's the way it goes I guess.
My turn 2, I double time the middle GS up the board 18". Since he was firing on the horms he was actually closer than 24" to them, so I've got a nice, short charge. Horms on right advance. Malanthrope and neuros are right in the middle of the board. Both flyrants drop next to the malanthrope again-this is something I'm starting to like doing. -2 to hit on the warlord makes him an unappealing target. In this situation I'm also still 9" from the stormraven, so I can try to assault it to finish it if I fail to smite/shoot it down. Dev gants come up on left side, GS on right side.
Psychic phase I GET CATALYST OFF!!!! YESSSSSSS. On the main GS squad too! 20 man blob of stealers right on his doorstep with catalyst, it's the thing dreams are made of. 3/4 smites go off/aren't denied, along with psychic scream. All into the stormraven. I roll all 2s and 3s, including my warlord who perils on double 6s and takes 2. I throw the horror on guilleman because I don't really know what else to throw it on.
Shooting from the flyrants does a few wounds, then the dev gants finish off the stormraven with only 2 wounds overkill. The captain survives the crash, so I double tap into his face. He survives like 27 wounds with W1 left. Sigh. Trygon kills a tac marine in a building (Surprise!).
Central GS declare charges on two razorbacks. Overwatch is below average/catalyst pays off, and only one dies. I suppose he burned all his 6s on normal shooting! I get a solid charge distance, but not great, enough to make it to both razorbacks, but only completely surround one. The GS trygon fails his charge, taking a wound from overwatch, but the right GS actually make their charge on an 11.
Fight phase I surround 1 razorback and blow it up, killing all occupants. Other razorback takes a few wounds. Right GS squad piles into the two razorbacks in the back, though tiggy intervenes and does a little damage. I pop adrenaline rush to surround the one razorback I couldn't with my initial charge, but dont have enough movement to completely surround it, so I wreck it and the lascannon manages to fit. I pile into the next razorback and the lascannon.
Fantastic first turn. Stormraven, 2 razorbacks, 1 tac squad, 4/5 and 1/5 from two other tac squads. GS in his backfield with catalyst. He has lost most of his ability to get across the field safely (Razorbacks are easy to surround and lock in place), and thus his ability to score. He's also lost the ability to shoot with 3/4 razorbacks this turn. Now to start eating squads.
His turn 2 he disembarks everyone. He falls back everything in combat, but not nearly far enough (I did try to make it clear at the start I could fall back and charge with EVERYTHING). I think he assumed he would do more damage, or that I wouldn't keep piling into them. Regardless, he moved guilleman and 5 tacs right up to the catalyst stealers. Tiggy and some tac marines on the back right corner face off with the other stealers. JP captain leaps at my onslaught neurothrope.
Psychic he gets buffs off on guilleman.
Shooting eats up a lot of the catalyst stealers, but I think ~10 live. Right stealers get knocked down to about 12. All his lascannons fire into my warlord. Even at -2 and -3, he manages to put it down. Pretty bad saves by me and pretty good rolls by him.
Assault the catalyst stealers do very little (I think nothing?), but a few survive. The normal stealers don't get charged. The neurothrope survives with 1 wound! He blows 3CP to finish it off.
My turn 3 I move the devourer gaunts up, advance both trygons because they're too far to charge reliably. I realize I lost my only onslaught, and was in decent charge ranges after advance. feth. Hormagaunts move forward and to be positioned to charge the captain if I need to. I believe about 4-6 GS are left from the central group, the move off to the left to engage 2 razorbacks and a tac squad. Right squad is going to try to surround a model from the tac squad, keep more models on the objective, kill tiggy AND tie up the razorbacks and the squad up in the building. The flyrant jumps forward to help with shooting, smite and scream.
Catalyst gets blocked iirc. Scream and smite do some damage to guilleman, I think he's down to 5. I can only smite the captain so he gets it in the face and goes down.
Shooting, I can't remember what dev gaunts did. I think they shot at a tank for a few wounds because it was all they had range for. I probably should have advanced and still done gakky shooting but had better position. Tyrant kills a few tac marines, leaving 1 left upstairs.
Left GS lose 1-2 to overwatch, make combat with the marines and 2 tanks. After all my charges, I decide to check distance for flyrant to upper floor marines, 10", so 9" charge, 8 with AG. I give it a go and get 11, great! Right GS grab tiggy and marines, ready to pile into tanks.
GS on left Kill 4 marines, lose 2-3 to tank combat!!! I have to his lascannon out of combat to keep both tanks locked. He could have still fired after falling back, I figured 0 razorback shots was less painful than a single lascannon at -1. Right GS bring tiggy to ONE WOUND, and all the marines, keep the 2 razorbacks locked. I have like 2CP, I can't activate feeder tendrils to get more CP, but I can implant attack to finish tiggy off. I do, he dies. That's the second time I've finished a character with it, amazingly. Flyrant kills last of tac squad in building.
His turn 3, he falls back 1 razorback towards central objectives. 2 fall WAY back to his edge, and 1 moves to circle out from around where tiggy fell. Marines and Guilleman move up towards Trygon.
Shooting finishes my last 2 stealers from the central squad, picks up a few from the right squad, and dumpsters my hive tyrant. Even with negative modifiers, I cannot catch a break. My stealers were doing fairly well with 5++/5+++, but 4++ seems impossible for me. Trygon takes a fair bit of damage, as well.
Guilleman charges trygon and wipes it out.
My turn 4 Horms move up to go play with Guille, GS squad advances 6 to go play with some single lascannon marines and tanks, trygon goes to eat a marine. Dev gants move up to the tank trying to sneeki beeki my central objective. Shooting does a little to the central tank, dev gants pick up a lascannon devastator that I should have left for the trygon to bounce off of.
Psychic I smite guilleman for some damage.
Genestealers use a single lascannon marine as charge target to reduce overwatch, manage to get inposition to tie up both razorbacks in his backfield again. Horms go play with Guilleman, I think. At this point we are rushing hard to finish as much as possible as time is running low.
Basically I manage to wipe out all his tac marines, use dev gants to lock one razorback and zone another one out of getting to central objective. The zoned one gets linebreaker. My Trygon slaps the taste out of Guillemans mouth, despite getting critically wounded in the process, and shot to death when he came back to life (with only 1W). Genestealers also died in the process of killing Guilleman, I think. He lost his last wound to smite. Hormagaunts wrapped up his razorback that tried to sneak around on my right side.
I can't remember if I killed his fourth razorback or what, but it was somehow unable to fight.
I had gotten 2 VP off of 5 objectives, and 3 off another. He had 2 VP off of 1 objective. Because you only start scoring on turn 2, and I was on top of him before his second turn, I contested everything he tried to score besides that 1. I picked up 18 BP there. Secondary was a modified KP, where every 8 wounds a MODEL had made it worth 1KP (So 5 wound model is 1, 9-16 wound model is 2, etc.), with an extra KP for it being a char and another for LOW. This was figured out as what % of your army's KP you lost, and you got BP for 1/25/50/75%. We tallied it up, and I had 79% for him, and he had 77% for me. WAIT. I forgot I had rippers. Nope, he got 73.9%. Tertiary we both had linebreaker and warlord, he had FB. Final score was 31-14.
What a game. I figured this would be a great matchup for me based on list and mission. I wasn't going to forget KP this time either. My biggest fear was him wiping out my stealers turn 1, my reserves not making charges, then just getting horribly gunned down. Like a lot of guys, he really underestimated the speed of the army, but he literally couldn't engage me without putting himself in danger. If he had stayed castled turn 2, I would have advanced everything up to 25". Again, forcing him to either back up or advance. If he sat still it would have been even worse than this, because he would have had no shooting. If he moves forward and targets the GS, I double move and onslaught the horms and tie down all of his tanks, while bringing in all of my reserves. Every turn he doesn't advance is a turn he loses for possible scoring. He probably would have been best off doing this and then shooting the stormraven past me so I had to chase it, though even with 45" my neuros and flyrants would have been able to reach it, I think.
I don't think that 24" gunline will work against Tyranids without LARGE conscript screens, and even then, it's pretty questionable. GS/Horms move so fast, and dakkagants tear up screens. I'm really leaning towards more stealers on the board at the start.
Game 3
Alex Fennell
Iyanden Eldar
2x Farseer
1x Autarch
3x Wraithknight, 2 wraithcannon and 2 starcannon each
Mission is modified kill points primary (For whom the bell tolls), relic secondary. We roll hammer and anvil deployment.
So. I don't like this. I don't like this at all.
I'm going to win secondary while getting kited all over the board and getting gak on, then stomped to death when I actually engage.
Typical deployment for me. He deploys around a piece of terrain in a triangle so I can't possibly shoot his characters. He gets first turn.
First turn he dooms the stealers, guide and fortune on a wraithknight. Moves to my left side. Bunch of stealers die. THAT WAS FAST.
My turn 1 I bring stealers in just past center, dev gants on left. He intercepts the stealer's Trygon, I luck out and take 4 damage. Everything plows forward. Right horms are gonna go for relic. Flyrants both land next to malanthrope in the middle of the board. Beat up stealers (Around 7 left, I think) double time to about 7" from a farseer. Ruh roh, you left him too far forward.
I get catalyst off on my flyrant. With multi-damage weapons, I doubt it'll help the stealers. Onslaught on left horms
Flyrants both shoot and smite one of the knights, do a little bit of damage. Termagants shoot it up as well. All told I think I did Around 11 damage to the central knight,
I make charges with both stealers, small squad to farseer, big squad to knight. Both Trygons fail horribly on their charges (Booooo-urns). Horms make it to far left Knight.
Caustic blood on the horms. 7 stealers do like 7 wounds to the farseer... he makes like 6 saves and only takes 1 wound. feth ME. 10 stealers get to swing on the knight and I don't rend worth a gak, I think he takes maybe 3-4 damage total? Horms do 2 damage or so. He stomps around with the stupid relic that doubles his temper tantrum. I think 15 or so horms die, and like 12 genestealers. I pop adrenaline rush and do 10 wounds to the farseer, which he fails 6. Boom. First blood at the bottom of 1.
His turn 2
He falls back, shuffles around, blows up both Trygons and murders a bunch of stealers+hormagaunts. Fails all his psychic powers.
My turn 2
Jump the flyrants up at the now middle knight. It's taken like 3-5 wounds, I think. I move up all my neurothropes. I grab the relic and run like a bitch with the other horms.
Psychic I get catalyst off on warlord. I smite and scream and just lay into the knight. He takes like 4-6 more wounds.
Shooting puts him at ~15 wounds taken.
Both Tyrants charge in, and they really put the footy claws to him. He goes down! Huzzah!
His Turn 3
So I'm gonna get slapped in the dick for that. He moves the chars and a knight past my flyrants and 1 towards the dev gants.
Warlord goes away. Painfully. But bad rolling on his part meant it took way more than he wanted to use on it. My other flyrant gets away basically scott free, I think.
He charges terms and kills enough where I fall out of combat.
My turn 3
Oh boy! I'm really fethed now, boys! Not really, though. He's super exposed his other farseer+autarch. I move neuros and tyrant right next to autarch, terms so they can be closest to him. Smite+shooting+charge from the Tyrant kills the autarch and leaves the farseer with 1 wound left. relic is still running like a bitch.
His Turn 4
He finds that I've been pretty carefully using movement so he can't get past me with his jumps. He runs the farseer away (Tho no boost cause he had to fall back). The knights shuffled to my table-left. I luck out in shooting and my tyrant survives with 5 wounds left. He stomps the piss out of some more gants.
My turn 4
Neuros and tyrant shift with the knights, terms move to follow the farseer. U NO GO PLZ.
3 smites+scream, +shooting and assault finish off another knight, just barely. Terms get the last wound off the farseer.
His turn 5
His knight jumps into my close left corner, erases my tyrant.
My turn 5
Terms move over and plink a few wounds, I think I'm being clever and putting a neurothrope infront of the other by about 8" so he'll charge one and get slowed down. In reality I'm playing too fast and put them basically the exact distance of his base+1" on each side. GUESS WHERE THAT GOES.
I do my smites, he takes a little damage.
I roll, game goes on.
His turn 6
He flubs shooting, but crushes both neuros in assault.
My turn 6
I wave at him with the relic.
Game ends.
Because of modified KP rules for the mission, he gets a 14-3 BP victory on primary, I get secondary for 9 BP, tertiary we both have warlord, I have FB, he has LB. Final score is 18-16 for a super bloody, super close match.
We both made a huge mistake with positioning (My farseer, his neurothrope) that ended up costing us a lot. His dice were unarguably as bad as mine were my first game. I felt bad, because it was really costing him a lot, but, I needed every inch I could get. In an objective game, I would have loved to face that army, but in KP I was absolutely FORCED to try to kill him and IT SUCKED. Luckily it was modified KP, so I got a lot of bonuses against his stuff, but even still, what tough nuts to crack. If I had gotten even one of the Trygons into assault from DS that could have gone much differently, I think. A trygon averages like 10 damage against a Wraithknight (If you pop rerolls to wound), which was enough to kill the last wraithknight he had left standing at the end of the game. A tiny bit of luck (Rounding up on some of the odds) could net you 4 unsaved wounds, and like 14-16 damage.
I did question using Death Frenzy-but I wasn't sure what profile I'd use? I figured the lowest, at which point it doesn't seem particularly great.
Anyways, all told I had a great time. I got to play an unusual list that posed some interesting problems for me, and two exceptional players. We've got a GT coming up in a few weeks, I'll probably try to get some more paint on my bugs and see how I can do up there. I expect some stiff competition!
OP updated a little. Warlord traits listed, Wargear listed (started some descriptions and added some personal notes), wrote up a little tactic on Termagant Bombs.
Again, if anyone wants to contribute PM me the stuff. Just copy the format so I can copy/paste it to the OP.
Marmatag wrote: Let's assume I advance 5" every time. 8+5 = 13", with Swarmlord, and doubling the advance (which I can do twice, because it's 2 separate phases)
I agree with everything you said but this. Kraken stratagem is in the movement phase only, sadly.
Oh, shoot - misplayed this.
In any case, I did some playtesting tonight. My learnings:
1. Anti-tank is a problem. I'm seeing some "leafblower" kind of meta out here a little bit. Can't really stand up to it if it's screened well.
2. 20x Squads of hormagaunts are problematic in kill points games. They're easily rendered impotent.
3. Devourer termagants coming in from reserves are excellent at removing screens.
4. There are some nasty matchups we will struggle with badly going the horde route.
5. We dominate in objective based games. My opinion so far.
6. Kill points, we do not fair as well.
7. A tyrannofex with rupture cannons might not be the worst thing in the world to have in a list - I will see.
8. Our targetable HQs / characters will be targeted. Running multiple hive fleets is a recipe for disaster.
8. Our targetable HQs / characters will be targeted. Running multiple hive fleets is a recipe for disaster.
I knew this. We rely too much on our core rule auras. Multiple hive fleets probably only works going nid zilla but then you loose out on a lot of CP.
Side note, anyone try out red terror with the new codex yet? I imagine you will get the most bang for your buck in a Jorm list where you have many reasons to bring multiple raveners.
Flyrants - 2x Dev, MRC, AG - Kraken Relic, Warlord Flyrants - 2x Dev, MRC, AG
20 GS 20 GS 30 Horm
Malanthrope 2 Neurothropes
30 Horm 30 Dev gants 6 rippers
Trygon Trygon
Round 1 vs Tyranids. Player wasn't a pushover, but I don't think he was a really competitive player. Seemed familiar to tournaments and knew the game.
He looked at my list and said, "Oh, wow we're running basically the same list..." and my heart dropped for a moment, I really was not excited to play against myself, it would be a very dangerous matchup. Of course, he finished his sentence with, "... except in reverse!"
He was running full krono shooty nids. Roughly
Malanthrope 6x Neurothrope (1 was warlord)
30 Terms, 15 dev 30 Terms, 15 dev 30 terms, 5 dev
3 Impaler Guard
Exocrine Exocrine Mawloc
Barbed Hierodule
Was deployment 1, spearhead assault. 2 objectives each (Give no ground! mission), 1 in your deployment zone, 1 outside your deployment but in your half. Secondary was killing 1/25/50/75% of your opponents total PL. I placed the on in my zone up in a building so mawloc couldnt get to it, just to the right of center by the edge of his half. He placed one just outside his deployment on my left, and one to the right a couple inched back into his deployment.
My usual deployment, GS mid, 30 horms on each side, mal in middle, neuro on each side, rippers up in the building in the back hiding on the objective. Tyrants, trygons, 20 GS and dev gants in reserve. He dployed with the 2 dev heavy term squads a little bit off the deployment line, about 24" away from me. One on each side, bubble wrapping everything. The other 30 man squad in the back so I couldn't come up behind. Neuro warlord and mal middle, both exocrines right behind, 2 neuros on each side and barbed on my left. Hiveguard far back left inside a building. Everything within his big bubble wrap.
I won first turn, but he seized. His shooting was mostly out of range, but exos and hives killed a decent number of stealers.
First turn I only got a 4" advance for GS, but still doubled it, needing an 8" charge. Horms on both sides moved up as usual. I dropped both flyrants right next to the malanthrope in the middle. GS and Devgants came up on left flank opposite the LOW. Hope was to bog it down then smash the gak out of it with smite and trygons.
I failed catalyst, even burning a CP to reroll (Historically I am less than 50% cast rate on catalyst, even with rerolls, and I probably roll same or worse on CP rerolls 70% of the time).Smite picked up a few gants, I think.
Shooting my devourer gants were pathetically bad. I ended up having to pour both flyrants, trygons and all the dev gants and didnt even kill 30 termagants, I think there was 1 left. I shot the termagants again, into a neurothrope. I lost a few because of LOS of the building I had to land near, but I think ~20 were firing. Average is like 5.77 damage.... I got THREE. So that was frustrating.
I then failed all of my charges, including an 8" charge where I rolled a 5 and a 2, which rerolled into a 1.
So, at this point I'm feeling like things aren't great. I have my termagants on his outside objective, my right horms on my right outside obj. No catalyst. ~30 GS left, and staring at almost the full fire effect of kronos that doesn't need to move.
Oh, and a LOW.
So, I got blasted pretty hard. 2 GS from the deployed squad live, I lose about half from the new squad (Which also gets his neuro back to full, huzzah!), non warlord flyrant dies (I make maybe 20% of my 4++), warlord takes like 1-2 damage, right horms get horrored and GS get paroxysmed.
Hierodule charges the GS trygon and the GS. Trygon gets dumpstered, GS roll like gak and only do a little damage.
SO THATS GREAT. One GS squad neutered, one is around half, I think. I'm down a flyrant. Dev gants are at 100%, but I need to stop his shooting ASAP I am down one of my flyrants.. I decide to play really risky, as I think we're teetering between one of us breaking, as he has a massive hole in his bubble wrap now, and I can't take another round of shooting.
I advance the malanthrope towards the right terms, get the right horms into charge range of the same terms, left horms get within charge range of the hierodule no prob. GS fall back towards his malanthrope+exocrines, terms move up. Warlord flyrant jumps over the central building and lands right next to his warlord neurothrope, the malanthrope, an exocrine and the termagants.
I fail catalyst again (With a reroll!), get onslaught off on the Malanthrope, fail the horror. Warlord doesn't manage to do any damage with smite, neuros do a little to the hierodule.
Shooting I put all 30 dev gants into the Impaler guard in cover. I just barely manage to kill two. Flyrant doesn't do anything, I think.
I charge the 2 remaining GS from behind a BLOS ruin into the right term squad to shut off overwatch, and the right horms into it as well, left horms and Trygon into the hierodule, termagants into the 2 neurothropes infront of them, Tyrant into Warlord Neurothrope and malanthrope and the GS into one of the neurothropes near the malanthrope.
With pile in, I manage to put flyrant on exocrine as well, GS on the other exocrine, termagants into the hive guard and the back 30 terms. I have now locked his entire army in combat except 2 neurothropes on his left flank.
I pop reroll wounds for the Trygon and he gets to work. Unfortunately I don't roll great on my damage, he rolls well on catalyst, and I get him down to just around or below half. Flyrant tries to wipe out his warlord, and does a whopping 3 damage. I know, I know, 3++, but needed to remove a smite and hopefully get his warlord while shutting down the exocrine. Termagants on left do jack gak except lock people up. Hormagaunts do maybe 1 or 2 damage to hierodule. Right horms kill ~10 terms, GS there kill 1 or 2, I think the mal whiffed or got knocked out of combat. GS eat a neurothrope I gain 1 CP (2-1 for using strat), pile into malanthrope as well
In return my flyrant gets put down to 8 I think. Both horm squads are fine. Trygon lucks out and only takes a tiny bit of damage. Terms lose a few. I lose both of the 2 man GS squad (Wow) to a handful of termagants. He blows 3 CP to adrenaline surge into my trygon and I survive with like 2 wounds.
Okay, so. Better. Well, not really. I failed to assassinate his warlord, and took a decent bit of damage in return. I still don't have catalyst. His Hierodule is still alive, and my Trygon is not feeling great (Tho I shorted myself the bonus ST attack every time I fought without thinking). I have like 7 GS hanging around with a malanthrope and exocrine, ~25 horms fighting ~15 terms, both my neurothropes, l~25 terms tying up his terms, impaler guard, and 2 zoanthropes. I have plenty of horde left, but very little killing power.
He brings in the mawloc on my Trygon and horms, does 1 to the Trygon and brings it down to 1. The Tyrant gets really messed up from smite spam, going down to like 2 or 3 wounds.
He finally kills the Trygon, and is down to like 5W on the hierodule. He kills like 2 of the GS. The horms do a good bit of damage to the terms, bringing them down to just a few models. At the end of the fight phase my Tyrant has 1W left and he rolls for the malanthropes' aura...
I make it! Huzzah!
So, I have a warlord tyrant who is about to die, 2 neurothropes facing 5 denies and like 5 GS left, for damage dealers. He has a hierodule in the bottom damage bracket, 2 exocrines at full, 1 impaler guard, 5 neurothropes and a mawloc. GEEZ.
We're running low on time, it's the top of 3. I do damage assessment. I'm not killing those Neurothropes. He didnt heal the warlord last round cause he didnt kill models, just beat up my tyrant, so he's still a bit weak. There's ONE termagant left from his left 30 man squad that keeps getting piled into, but not swung on (I keep forgetting it's there and dont declare it). The middle of the board has big ruins that his hierodule can't fit through, but there's enough space for his mawloc. If I can block that he can't get my outside objective. I still have termagants on his, so as long as I keep them conga lined to the neuros he can't take that back from me. The hormagaunts can take his deep objective because there's a large gap where his terms used to be.
I'm going to take all 4 objectives and hold them till 5. That's my plan. I'll get linebreaker, and atlanta allows first blood as long as both players have it in the same round, and we both got a kill in round 2. I should probably try to run my warlord away, but with only 8" I don't think I can get away from his zoanthropes. I'd rather go down swinging, I think I can shoot down his warlord and charge the malanthrope. Maybe deal 5-8 damage before I die.
So, I fall the flyrant back just a tiny bit. Fall back the right horms and move them into the gap the dead terms left. Right around the neurothropes, the obj, the exo and the backfield term squad. Horms fall back off the hierodule and move towards the middle of the board, while still staying able to charge him, the exocrine and malanthrope. The 5 stealers move to try to finish off the hierodule. With 2 smites and the stealers I should kill it. 15 attacks should get me 1-2 rends, and I should do 4 damage with smite. I move one neurothrope to block the mawloc from being physically able to pass between the ruins to get to my outside objective.
Psychic phase.... I don't risk casting on the warlord tyrant. I do 4 wounds to the hierodule, he has 1 left.
Shooting the flyrant whiffs. Guess we gotta get our footy claws dirty.
Assault the flyrant kills the neurothrope. Genestealers COMPLETELY WHIFF. Horms beat up the terms some more, lock everything in place, securing me the objective.
I realize I FORGOT THE MALANTHROPE. He was on the other side of BLOS and so I didn't move or charge with him. feth. That might have been enough to kill one of the other neuros, or pick me up the bonus if he had been present on the warlord. Well gak. I also could have used him to shield flyrant from smites if I had thought of it. Totally fethed myself there because I was rushing as time was coming down.
He swings back with mal and kills my flyrant. Fuckin' eh.
We have time for 1 more very, very fast turn. Hierodule can't get past neuros, charges and fails to kill 1. Mawloc charges and fails to do anything.
My turn I fall back and grab the objective with my neurothrope. I fail to kill the hierodule with my smites, of course.
Nothing else of note.
I win primary 18-0. I had not focused on secondary, and had only actually killed 2 neurothropes from his army. He had 2 individual terms left from both 30 man squads, 1 hive guard with 1w left, and 1w left on his hierodule. Meanwhile he had killed quite a lot of my army, so he scored big there. He had 2 teritiaries to my 3.
Total final score was like 25-13
Thoughts- I failed SO many important rolls. So. So. So many. Even with rerolls. I just couldn't get anything going this match. My opponent didn't roll amazing or terribly-he had some bad luck offensively with his hierodule, but didnt perils once and only failed maybe 2 abilities despite casting with 4-6 psykers twice a turn for 4 turns. Nothing critical he tried except the hierodule vs my trygon went poorly beyond a regular amount of variance. I really messed up not keeping track of the secondary, if I had been focusing more on it I think I could have put more attacks into the hive guard and finished those 2 termagant squads, which probably would have gotten me 2 more BP. If I had gotten ONE rend on the hierodule across 2 sets of swings with the stealers, that too would have put me up a bracket in the secondary.
It was nice to see how I could handle big screens-they weren't really a problem at all. If I had gotten just my 1 decent turn 1 charge off, the match would have gone much, much differently. Especially if I had gotten a 5 or 6 for the advance and a 8"+ charge, because then I would have been able to get the GS deep in there, possibly locking in place on a termagant. Regardless, it was a good primary for me, there was no way he was leaving his deployment zone, and with a super troops heavy army I have little trouble just shoving people off objectives and claiming them out from underneath them.
Game 2 Patrick McAneeny (ITC #6 SM player)
Playing Guilleman Tiggy JP captain with teeth of terra
5 tac squads with las cannon 6 asscan razorbacks
Stormraven
Mission was 6 objectives (Aggressive recon), where you score them at the START of your turn, you can only score each once (2VP) and if you score an objective AFTER your opponent, you get 3VP. we had 2 objectives in each 4'x2' of the board. Deployment was vanguard. Typical deployment for me. He deployed very far back. He won the roll off and made me go first. I was actually okay with this, as I could advance to midfield and still be more than 24" away. If he wanted to shoot me he would have to move and shoot at -2. Even with rerolls, that means he'll lose 50% of his hits.
I move up into a central building with stealers, horms on flanks, rippers in back like 7" from an objective, hiding. I keep my reserves off. I want him to come to me. 24" is more than close enough for easy charges with stealers.
Catalyst fails. As usual. I have failed 4 of 5 attempts at this point in the tourney.
Turn 1 he moves everything up, mostly swinging left, including the stormraven moving way out in front on my left.
Even with the -2, he rolls pretty well, tons of 5s and 6s, just finishing off the left horm squad and killing a few from the right.
Ouch. More than I thought he'd do. I figured I'd lose ~25 and then slink off with the unit. Not happy I gave up FB, but that's the way it goes I guess.
My turn 2, I double time the middle GS up the board 18". Since he was firing on the horms he was actually closer than 24" to them, so I've got a nice, short charge. Horms on right advance. Malanthrope and neuros are right in the middle of the board. Both flyrants drop next to the malanthrope again-this is something I'm starting to like doing. -2 to hit on the warlord makes him an unappealing target. In this situation I'm also still 9" from the stormraven, so I can try to assault it to finish it if I fail to smite/shoot it down. Dev gants come up on left side, GS on right side.
Psychic phase I GET CATALYST OFF!!!! YESSSSSSS. On the main GS squad too! 20 man blob of stealers right on his doorstep with catalyst, it's the thing dreams are made of. 3/4 smites go off/aren't denied, along with psychic scream. All into the stormraven. I roll all 2s and 3s, including my warlord who perils on double 6s and takes 2. I throw the horror on guilleman because I don't really know what else to throw it on.
Shooting from the flyrants does a few wounds, then the dev gants finish off the stormraven with only 2 wounds overkill. The captain survives the crash, so I double tap into his face. He survives like 27 wounds with W1 left. Sigh. Trygon kills a tac marine in a building (Surprise!).
Central GS declare charges on two razorbacks. Overwatch is below average/catalyst pays off, and only one dies. I suppose he burned all his 6s on normal shooting! I get a solid charge distance, but not great, enough to make it to both razorbacks, but only completely surround one. The GS trygon fails his charge, taking a wound from overwatch, but the right GS actually make their charge on an 11.
Fight phase I surround 1 razorback and blow it up, killing all occupants. Other razorback takes a few wounds. Right GS squad piles into the two razorbacks in the back, though tiggy intervenes and does a little damage. I pop adrenaline rush to surround the one razorback I couldn't with my initial charge, but dont have enough movement to completely surround it, so I wreck it and the lascannon manages to fit. I pile into the next razorback and the lascannon.
Fantastic first turn. Stormraven, 2 razorbacks, 1 tac squad, 4/5 and 1/5 from two other tac squads. GS in his backfield with catalyst. He has lost most of his ability to get across the field safely (Razorbacks are easy to surround and lock in place), and thus his ability to score. He's also lost the ability to shoot with 3/4 razorbacks this turn. Now to start eating squads.
His turn 2 he disembarks everyone. He falls back everything in combat, but not nearly far enough (I did try to make it clear at the start I could fall back and charge with EVERYTHING). I think he assumed he would do more damage, or that I wouldn't keep piling into them. Regardless, he moved guilleman and 5 tacs right up to the catalyst stealers. Tiggy and some tac marines on the back right corner face off with the other stealers. JP captain leaps at my onslaught neurothrope.
Psychic he gets buffs off on guilleman.
Shooting eats up a lot of the catalyst stealers, but I think ~10 live. Right stealers get knocked down to about 12. All his lascannons fire into my warlord. Even at -2 and -3, he manages to put it down. Pretty bad saves by me and pretty good rolls by him.
Assault the catalyst stealers do very little (I think nothing?), but a few survive. The normal stealers don't get charged. The neurothrope survives with 1 wound! He blows 3CP to finish it off.
My turn 3 I move the devourer gaunts up, advance both trygons because they're too far to charge reliably. I realize I lost my only onslaught, and was in decent charge ranges after advance. feth. Hormagaunts move forward and to be positioned to charge the captain if I need to. I believe about 4-6 GS are left from the central group, the move off to the left to engage 2 razorbacks and a tac squad. Right squad is going to try to surround a model from the tac squad, keep more models on the objective, kill tiggy AND tie up the razorbacks and the squad up in the building. The flyrant jumps forward to help with shooting, smite and scream.
Catalyst gets blocked iirc. Scream and smite do some damage to guilleman, I think he's down to 5. I can only smite the captain so he gets it in the face and goes down.
Shooting, I can't remember what dev gaunts did. I think they shot at a tank for a few wounds because it was all they had range for. I probably should have advanced and still done gakky shooting but had better position. Tyrant kills a few tac marines, leaving 1 left upstairs.
Left GS lose 1-2 to overwatch, make combat with the marines and 2 tanks. After all my charges, I decide to check distance for flyrant to upper floor marines, 10", so 9" charge, 8 with AG. I give it a go and get 11, great! Right GS grab tiggy and marines, ready to pile into tanks.
GS on left Kill 4 marines, lose 2-3 to tank combat!!! I have to his lascannon out of combat to keep both tanks locked. He could have still fired after falling back, I figured 0 razorback shots was less painful than a single lascannon at -1. Right GS bring tiggy to ONE WOUND, and all the marines, keep the 2 razorbacks locked. I have like 2CP, I can't activate feeder tendrils to get more CP, but I can implant attack to finish tiggy off. I do, he dies. That's the second time I've finished a character with it, amazingly. Flyrant kills last of tac squad in building.
His turn 3, he falls back 1 razorback towards central objectives. 2 fall WAY back to his edge, and 1 moves to circle out from around where tiggy fell. Marines and Guilleman move up towards Trygon.
Shooting finishes my last 2 stealers from the central squad, picks up a few from the right squad, and dumpsters my hive tyrant. Even with negative modifiers, I cannot catch a break. My stealers were doing fairly well with 5++/5+++, but 4++ seems impossible for me. Trygon takes a fair bit of damage, as well.
Guilleman charges trygon and wipes it out.
My turn 4 Horms move up to go play with Guille, GS squad advances 6 to go play with some single lascannon marines and tanks, trygon goes to eat a marine. Dev gants move up to the tank trying to sneeki beeki my central objective. Shooting does a little to the central tank, dev gants pick up a lascannon devastator that I should have left for the trygon to bounce off of.
Psychic I smite guilleman for some damage.
Genestealers use a single lascannon marine as charge target to reduce overwatch, manage to get inposition to tie up both razorbacks in his backfield again. Horms go play with Guilleman, I think. At this point we are rushing hard to finish as much as possible as time is running low.
Basically I manage to wipe out all his tac marines, use dev gants to lock one razorback and zone another one out of getting to central objective. The zoned one gets linebreaker. My Trygon slaps the taste out of Guillemans mouth, despite getting critically wounded in the process, and shot to death when he came back to life (with only 1W). Genestealers also died in the process of killing Guilleman, I think. He lost his last wound to smite. Hormagaunts wrapped up his razorback that tried to sneak around on my right side.
I can't remember if I killed his fourth razorback or what, but it was somehow unable to fight.
I had gotten 2 VP off of 5 objectives, and 3 off another. He had 2 VP off of 1 objective. Because you only start scoring on turn 2, and I was on top of him before his second turn, I contested everything he tried to score besides that 1. I picked up 18 BP there. Secondary was a modified KP, where every 8 wounds a MODEL had made it worth 1KP (So 5 wound model is 1, 9-16 wound model is 2, etc.), with an extra KP for it being a char and another for LOW. This was figured out as what % of your army's KP you lost, and you got BP for 1/25/50/75%. We tallied it up, and I had 79% for him, and he had 77% for me. WAIT. I forgot I had rippers. Nope, he got 73.9%. Tertiary we both had linebreaker and warlord, he had FB. Final score was 31-14.
What a game. I figured this would be a great matchup for me based on list and mission. I wasn't going to forget KP this time either. My biggest fear was him wiping out my stealers turn 1, my reserves not making charges, then just getting horribly gunned down. Like a lot of guys, he really underestimated the speed of the army, but he literally couldn't engage me without putting himself in danger. If he had stayed castled turn 2, I would have advanced everything up to 25". Again, forcing him to either back up or advance. If he sat still it would have been even worse than this, because he would have had no shooting. If he moves forward and targets the GS, I double move and onslaught the horms and tie down all of his tanks, while bringing in all of my reserves. Every turn he doesn't advance is a turn he loses for possible scoring. He probably would have been best off doing this and then shooting the stormraven past me so I had to chase it, though even with 45" my neuros and flyrants would have been able to reach it, I think.
I don't think that 24" gunline will work against Tyranids without LARGE conscript screens, and even then, it's pretty questionable. GS/Horms move so fast, and dakkagants tear up screens. I'm really leaning towards more stealers on the board at the start.
Game 3 Alex Fennell
Iyanden Eldar 2x Farseer 1x Autarch
3x Wraithknight, 2 wraithcannon and 2 starcannon each
Mission is modified kill points primary (For whom the bell tolls), relic secondary. We roll hammer and anvil deployment.
So. I don't like this. I don't like this at all.
I'm going to win secondary while getting kited all over the board and getting gak on, then stomped to death when I actually engage.
Typical deployment for me. He deploys around a piece of terrain in a triangle so I can't possibly shoot his characters. He gets first turn.
First turn he dooms the stealers, guide and fortune on a wraithknight. Moves to my left side. Bunch of stealers die. THAT WAS FAST.
My turn 1 I bring stealers in just past center, dev gants on left. He intercepts the stealer's Trygon, I luck out and take 4 damage. Everything plows forward. Right horms are gonna go for relic. Flyrants both land next to malanthrope in the middle of the board. Beat up stealers (Around 7 left, I think) double time to about 7" from a farseer. Ruh roh, you left him too far forward.
I get catalyst off on my flyrant. With multi-damage weapons, I doubt it'll help the stealers. Onslaught on left horms
Flyrants both shoot and smite one of the knights, do a little bit of damage. Termagants shoot it up as well. All told I think I did Around 11 damage to the central knight,
I make charges with both stealers, small squad to farseer, big squad to knight. Both Trygons fail horribly on their charges (Booooo-urns). Horms make it to far left Knight.
Caustic blood on the horms. 7 stealers do like 7 wounds to the farseer... he makes like 6 saves and only takes 1 wound. feth ME. 10 stealers get to swing on the knight and I don't rend worth a gak, I think he takes maybe 3-4 damage total? Horms do 2 damage or so. He stomps around with the stupid relic that doubles his temper tantrum. I think 15 or so horms die, and like 12 genestealers. I pop adrenaline rush and do 10 wounds to the farseer, which he fails 6. Boom. First blood at the bottom of 1.
His turn 2
He falls back, shuffles around, blows up both Trygons and murders a bunch of stealers+hormagaunts. Fails all his psychic powers.
My turn 2
Jump the flyrants up at the now middle knight. It's taken like 3-5 wounds, I think. I move up all my neurothropes. I grab the relic and run like a bitch with the other horms.
Psychic I get catalyst off on warlord. I smite and scream and just lay into the knight. He takes like 4-6 more wounds.
Shooting puts him at ~15 wounds taken.
Both Tyrants charge in, and they really put the footy claws to him. He goes down! Huzzah!
His Turn 3
So I'm gonna get slapped in the dick for that. He moves the chars and a knight past my flyrants and 1 towards the dev gants.
Warlord goes away. Painfully. But bad rolling on his part meant it took way more than he wanted to use on it. My other flyrant gets away basically scott free, I think.
He charges terms and kills enough where I fall out of combat.
My turn 3
Oh boy! I'm really fethed now, boys! Not really, though. He's super exposed his other farseer+autarch. I move neuros and tyrant right next to autarch, terms so they can be closest to him. Smite+shooting+charge from the Tyrant kills the autarch and leaves the farseer with 1 wound left. relic is still running like a bitch.
His Turn 4
He finds that I've been pretty carefully using movement so he can't get past me with his jumps. He runs the farseer away (Tho no boost cause he had to fall back). The knights shuffled to my table-left. I luck out in shooting and my tyrant survives with 5 wounds left. He stomps the piss out of some more gants.
My turn 4
Neuros and tyrant shift with the knights, terms move to follow the farseer. U NO GO PLZ.
3 smites+scream, +shooting and assault finish off another knight, just barely. Terms get the last wound off the farseer.
His turn 5
His knight jumps into my close left corner, erases my tyrant.
My turn 5
Terms move over and plink a few wounds, I think I'm being clever and putting a neurothrope infront of the other by about 8" so he'll charge one and get slowed down. In reality I'm playing too fast and put them basically the exact distance of his base+1" on each side. GUESS WHERE THAT GOES.
I do my smites, he takes a little damage.
I roll, game goes on.
His turn 6
He flubs shooting, but crushes both neuros in assault.
My turn 6
I wave at him with the relic.
Game ends.
Because of modified KP rules for the mission, he gets a 14-3 BP victory on primary, I get secondary for 9 BP, tertiary we both have warlord, I have FB, he has LB. Final score is 18-16 for a super bloody, super close match.
We both made a huge mistake with positioning (My farseer, his neurothrope) that ended up costing us a lot. His dice were unarguably as bad as mine were my first game. I felt bad, because it was really costing him a lot, but, I needed every inch I could get. In an objective game, I would have loved to face that army, but in KP I was absolutely FORCED to try to kill him and IT SUCKED. Luckily it was modified KP, so I got a lot of bonuses against his stuff, but even still, what tough nuts to crack. If I had gotten even one of the Trygons into assault from DS that could have gone much differently, I think. A trygon averages like 10 damage against a Wraithknight (If you pop rerolls to wound), which was enough to kill the last wraithknight he had left standing at the end of the game. A tiny bit of luck (Rounding up on some of the odds) could net you 4 unsaved wounds, and like 14-16 damage.
I did question using Death Frenzy-but I wasn't sure what profile I'd use? I figured the lowest, at which point it doesn't seem particularly great.
Anyways, all told I had a great time. I got to play an unusual list that posed some interesting problems for me, and two exceptional players. We've got a GT coming up in a few weeks, I'll probably try to get some more paint on my bugs and see how I can do up there. I expect some stiff competition!
Thanks for the battle report. Good to see a competent bugs player can smoke some high level tournament players and lists.
I played in a casual doubles tournament today and I basically managed to solo both my enemies as my admech buddy locked down his bots behind LOS blocking terrain and killed 4 stealth suits all game. Anyway, I am really enjoying some of the movement shenanigans thats bugs can do. I think the movement phase is the most fun phase of the game and bugs have a lot of options there that make it fun to play.
Has anybody tried DS'ing 30 gargoyles with the swarmlord in a tyrannocye for the double move to fly over screening units and charge tanks and whatever turn 1?
killerpenguin wrote: Has anybody tried DS'ing 30 gargoyles with the swarmlord in a tyrannocye for the double move to fly over screening units and charge tanks and whatever turn 1?
The biggest issue with gargs is their footprint and fragility.....will they fit between the layer of bubble wrap and the soft chewy center? Otherwise I think Homagaunts fill the niche quite well with their 6" pile in/consolidate.
Honestly I think Gargs might be a great option on the board.... they look intimidating as hell and move like lightning with Karaken they can roll the 3d6 for adv making them even faster and they can fall back shoot and assault again also blinding venom can help.... finally they are relitivly cheap at 6ppm though I think too pricey if you add AG though you almost want to anyway. They have a huge footprint which can really mess with opponent fliers..and they can also assault said fliers which is nice. Their only real drawback is being a fast attack if they were troop they would be nearly auto include.
What was the time gap between the release of the Eldar or IG/AM codex and the release of the codex-specific FAQ?
Just curious, a few key question I'm waiting on for Nids!
(Hoping.. just maybe.. I can spend 3CP and not spend a further massive bunch of points for units I could have fielded anyway, with the Sporemine stratagem)
Razerous wrote: What was the time gap between the release of the Eldar or IG/AM codex and the release of the codex-specific FAQ?
Just curious, a few key question I'm waiting on for Nids!
(Hoping.. just maybe.. I can spend 3CP and not spend a further massive bunch of points for units I could have fielded anyway, with the Sporemine stratagem)
It's been 2-3 weeks, typically.
FWIW they've consistently FAQ'd this sort of thing to affirm that they mean what the rulebook says (Chaos and AdMech top-up stratagems don't cost points, Guard reinforcement stratagem does). They also changed the wording of the Spore Mines' rules, and the only difference between the new wording and the old wording is that index Spore Mines would be free with the stratagem.
Razerous wrote: What was the time gap between the release of the Eldar or IG/AM codex and the release of the codex-specific FAQ?
Just curious, a few key question I'm waiting on for Nids!
(Hoping.. just maybe.. I can spend 3CP and not spend a further massive bunch of points for units I could have fielded anyway, with the Sporemine stratagem)
It's been 2-3 weeks, typically.
FWIW they've consistently FAQ'd this sort of thing to affirm that they mean what the rulebook says (Chaos and AdMech top-up stratagems don't cost points, Guard reinforcement stratagem does). They also changed the wording of the Spore Mines' rules, and the only difference between the new wording and the old wording is that index Spore Mines would be free with the stratagem.
Are you suggesting.. it;s looking bad for spore-mine lovers?
I don't have the new codex yet (it's one order from my LGS) so I wanted to see what the consensous was on weapon options for the tyrannocyte and the sporocyst. Do you bring deathspitters to keep them cheap, or Barbed Stranglers to help them harass infantry? For the sporocyst barbed stranglers also provide additional range to help with it's lack of mobility. I don't really know the point costs and I'm trying to build mine today, so it's hard to say which is better.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: I don't have the new codex yet (it's one order from my LGS) so I wanted to see what the consensous was on weapon options for the tyrannocyte and the sporocyst. Do you bring deathspitters to keep them cheap, or Barbed Stranglers to help them harass infantry? For the sporocyst barbed stranglers also provide additional range to help with it's lack of mobility. I don't really know the point costs and I'm trying to build mine today, so it's hard to say which is better.
I intend to bring a sporocyst. I will be bringing it with deathspitters to keep it cheap, but if I was going to change them it would be to venom canons.
The sporocysts does the most when it's being ignored because other things are more threatening. If the guns are too good on it it will move up the enemies list of priorities and get taken out faster.
1. Anti-tank is a problem. I'm seeing some "leafblower" kind of meta out here a little bit. Can't really stand up to it if it's screened well.
2. 20x Squads of hormagaunts are problematic in kill points games. They're easily rendered impotent.
3. Devourer termagants coming in from reserves are excellent at removing screens.
4. There are some nasty matchups we will struggle with badly going the horde route.
5. We dominate in objective based games. My opinion so far.
6. Kill points, we do not fair as well.
7. A tyrannofex with rupture cannons might not be the worst thing in the world to have in a list - I will see.
8. Our targetable HQs / characters will be targeted. Running multiple hive fleets is a recipe for disaster.
1. Our only counter to tank leafblower is to get screening units into them and just keep piling into them every turn so they can't shoot. None of our AT platforms are cost efficient enough to trade with heavy tank leafblower armies, I think. If we can lock them down, we can eliminate everything else and pick off tanks as targets of opportunity, but in general, yeah, IG leafblower with 100+ conscripts will be our worst out. We've said it from the start. It's just too strong of an army. Our best bet is to properly do assaults+pile ins, lock units from falling back, etc. If we can get our power units to tanks, they die no problem. GS, psykers, MCs all mess them up pretty well.
2. I figured as much, the extra 10 bodies really go a long way, you can take 15 casualties and still have enough bodies to lock a bunch of people up. You can take 25 and still have enough to eat an overwatch. Obviously in certain mission formats, 19/29 are the numbers, otherwise, max squad size imo 3. They're great at a lot. And with MTO style, they basically just get ignored. The Trygon means people aren't generally willing to send a mediocre unit to tie them up, either. Killing that trygon and dedicating an assault unit to them means risking the GS+Trygon doing their thing. Some armies will be able to handle all 4 units (Not to mention your other stuff), but many won't.
4. Like what? I've not felt like having more bodies was an impairment, including facing a pretty wide array of list styles. Your opponent can only do as many wounds as they have dice, so if you have enough bodies you can overwhelm many armies. Hordes also have a huge advantage for scoring, you can control the board pretty easily. Mobile armies can be kind of tough, with the best counter being great long shooting, but the other counter is having hordes so they can't get past you as you box them in.
5. More like a fact. A lot of high level players have been saying this since 5th (And players like Pajamapants have shown it), if time were not an issue, morale immune horde armies would win the vast majority of 40k games just because the mechanics of the game favor them.
6. Very true, unless it is modified KP. Check out warzone atlanta's missions I linked, even against a 6 model army with a 13 unit army, I was able to not give up a complete loss because of it.
7. On average it's a solid shooting platform, with d6 damage it will have a lot of variation on damage output, imo. I think Impaler Guard are better, because of their special rules. 240 pts of either does just about 6 wounds to vehicles, while an exo does 6.6. The efficiency is so close I would much rather have 36" ignoring LOS and cover. Against T8 the tyranno stays the same, while exo and HG both drop to 4.4. Tyranno you can CP to try for a 4-6 damage roll, but overall I just think hive guard will give more consistent results. Also, better against things with invulns. There's definitely not a clear answer to which is better, which is nice. Tyranno, exo and HG all perform very similarly with niches for each, so it comes down to taste.
8. Complete agreement. Unless you're playing all infantry, mixing tyrants is gonna end up with a detachment without synapse. Tyrants are not particularly tough. They will, on occasion, roll a bit high on their 4++ and you'll get some nice mileage out of them, but in general, they're about as tough as 2 Rhinos. Which is fair, because that's how much they cost. Two is about as durable as Morty or Magnus without his 3++. I've started dropping them near the malanthrope to increase survivability against strong shooting armies (Since there's no way you're blocking LOS to those big ass wings), but they're still not particularly tough. Smite is a tough cookie, too.
Spoletta wrote:It's bs5+. If i could i would take it unarmed, but since i can't the cheapest option is the best option.
Lance845 wrote:
Lord Ruby34 wrote: I don't have the new codex yet (it's one order from my LGS) so I wanted to see what the consensous was on weapon options for the tyrannocyte and the sporocyst. Do you bring deathspitters to keep them cheap, or Barbed Stranglers to help them harass infantry? For the sporocyst barbed stranglers also provide additional range to help with it's lack of mobility. I don't really know the point costs and I'm trying to build mine today, so it's hard to say which is better.
I intend to bring a sporocyst. I will be bringing it with deathspitters to keep it cheap, but if I was going to change them it would be to venom canons.
The sporocysts does the most when it's being ignored because other things are more threatening. If the guns are too good on it it will move up the enemies list of priorities and get taken out faster.
Makes sense. I kinda want my pod to do something other than attempting to annoy tanks by bouncing into them, but It really is mostly for dropping swarmy next to a big pack of something to help tie things up on turn one.
1. Anti-tank is a problem. I'm seeing some "leafblower" kind of meta out here a little bit. Can't really stand up to it if it's screened well.
2. 20x Squads of hormagaunts are problematic in kill points games. They're easily rendered impotent.
3. Devourer termagants coming in from reserves are excellent at removing screens.
4. There are some nasty matchups we will struggle with badly going the horde route.
5. We dominate in objective based games. My opinion so far.
6. Kill points, we do not fair as well.
7. A tyrannofex with rupture cannons might not be the worst thing in the world to have in a list - I will see.
8. Our targetable HQs / characters will be targeted. Running multiple hive fleets is a recipe for disaster.
1. Our only counter to tank leafblower is to get screening units into them and just keep piling into them every turn so they can't shoot. None of our AT platforms are cost efficient enough to trade with heavy tank leafblower armies, I think. If we can lock them down, we can eliminate everything else and pick off tanks as targets of opportunity, but in general, yeah, IG leafblower with 100+ conscripts will be our worst out. We've said it from the start. It's just too strong of an army. Our best bet is to properly do assaults+pile ins, lock units from falling back, etc. If we can get our power units to tanks, they die no problem. GS, psykers, MCs all mess them up pretty well.
2. I figured as much, the extra 10 bodies really go a long way, you can take 15 casualties and still have enough bodies to lock a bunch of people up. You can take 25 and still have enough to eat an overwatch. Obviously in certain mission formats, 19/29 are the numbers, otherwise, max squad size imo 3. They're great at a lot. And with MTO style, they basically just get ignored. The Trygon means people aren't generally willing to send a mediocre unit to tie them up, either. Killing that trygon and dedicating an assault unit to them means risking the GS+Trygon doing their thing. Some armies will be able to handle all 4 units (Not to mention your other stuff), but many won't.
4. Like what? I've not felt like having more bodies was an impairment, including facing a pretty wide array of list styles. Your opponent can only do as many wounds as they have dice, so if you have enough bodies you can overwhelm many armies. Hordes also have a huge advantage for scoring, you can control the board pretty easily. Mobile armies can be kind of tough, with the best counter being great long shooting, but the other counter is having hordes so they can't get past you as you box them in.
5. More like a fact. A lot of high level players have been saying this since 5th (And players like Pajamapants have shown it), if time were not an issue, morale immune horde armies would win the vast majority of 40k games just because the mechanics of the game favor them.
6. Very true, unless it is modified KP. Check out warzone atlanta's missions I linked, even against a 6 model army with a 13 unit army, I was able to not give up a complete loss because of it.
7. On average it's a solid shooting platform, with d6 damage it will have a lot of variation on damage output, imo. I think Impaler Guard are better, because of their special rules. 240 pts of either does just about 6 wounds to vehicles, while an exo does 6.6. The efficiency is so close I would much rather have 36" ignoring LOS and cover. Against T8 the tyranno stays the same, while exo and HG both drop to 4.4. Tyranno you can CP to try for a 4-6 damage roll, but overall I just think hive guard will give more consistent results. Also, better against things with invulns. There's definitely not a clear answer to which is better, which is nice. Tyranno, exo and HG all perform very similarly with niches for each, so it comes down to taste.
8. Complete agreement. Unless you're playing all infantry, mixing tyrants is gonna end up with a detachment without synapse. Tyrants are not particularly tough. They will, on occasion, roll a bit high on their 4++ and you'll get some nice mileage out of them, but in general, they're about as tough as 2 Rhinos. Which is fair, because that's how much they cost. Two is about as durable as Morty or Magnus without his 3++. I've started dropping them near the malanthrope to increase survivability against strong shooting armies (Since there's no way you're blocking LOS to those big ass wings), but they're still not particularly tough. Smite is a tough cookie, too.
Dont agree with number 8 at all, it depends completely on the list, if you DS 5 Mawlocs and 5 HT's, they will most likely go after the Mawlocks.
Same for Genestealers, if you charge 40 of them turn 1-2 and then DS the HT's into that mess, its going to be hard to pick a threat.
You need to threat overload, or dont play with 2-3 large easy options. If your playing Hive guard, Exocrines, Hgants and Neurothropes, then you DS 1 good HT and 1 unit of Goyles, yeah your HT will die b.c it the only forward threat.
Dont agree with number 8 at all, it depends completely on the list, if you DS 5 Mawlocs and 5 HT's, they will most likely go after the Mawlocks.
Same for Genestealers, if you charge 40 of them turn 1-2 and then DS the HT's into that mess, its going to be hard to pick a threat.
You need to threat overload, or dont play with 2-3 large easy options. If your playing Hive guard, Exocrines, Hgants and Neurothropes, then you DS 1 good HT and 1 unit of Goyles, yeah your HT will die b.c it the only forward threat.
What? Why in the world would anyone target the mawlocs? That's absurd.
It's not hard at all. The AT weapons go after tyrants. Trust me, I just wrote 3 batreps explaining exactly what people do when you have 40 stealers, 2 trygons, 2 flyrants, 60 horms and 30 dev gants on them turn 1-2. Hint: They kill the flyrants/trygons, depending on which is a bigger threat to them, with their multi-damage weapons.
Amish, could you provide us some batreps of your play so we can have some idea what you're playing against? I'm struggling to really appreciate your take on a lot of things, and I think it would help if I could get some batreps from you that show how your ideas fare against other players in action, rather than in theory.
Dont agree with number 8 at all, it depends completely on the list, if you DS 5 Mawlocs and 5 HT's, they will most likely go after the Mawlocks.
Same for Genestealers, if you charge 40 of them turn 1-2 and then DS the HT's into that mess, its going to be hard to pick a threat.
You need to threat overload, or dont play with 2-3 large easy options. If your playing Hive guard, Exocrines, Hgants and Neurothropes, then you DS 1 good HT and 1 unit of Goyles, yeah your HT will die b.c it the only forward threat.
What? Why in the world would anyone target the mawlocs? That's absurd.
It's not hard at all. The AT weapons go after tyrants. Trust me, I just wrote 3 batreps explaining exactly what people do when you have 40 stealers, 2 trygons, 2 flyrants, 60 horms and 30 dev gants on them turn 1-2. Hint: They kill the flyrants/trygons, depending on which is a bigger threat to them, with their multi-damage weapons.
Amish, could you provide us some batreps of your play so we can have some idea what you're playing against? I'm struggling to really appreciate your take on a lot of things, and I think it would help if I could get some batreps from you that show how your ideas fare against other players in action, rather than in theory.
Yeah I think it is a bit incredulous for people to shoot the mawlocs before the HT's.
Even in a MTO threat situation, people aren't dumb and lascannons are still very good, they will just shoot the HTs with AT weapons and shoot the GSs with everything else.
My best way of dealing with this has been to use our mobility to pull them apart on the objectives, and then go basically all in on one side of the board, and try to overwhelm their forces, and take a few objectives as well. Haven't played any high level tournaments but I would like to at some point and see how well that does.
Amishprn86 wrote: The idea was "Give them more threats than just your HT's"
Not saying those examples are perfect, it was the idea of the examples to give you a visual instead of me just saying "dont put 1 threat as a target".
That's obvious. We all know that. But, if you have two hive fleets, whichever hive fleet needs synapse more is going to lose their HT first, and then be assed out.
Which is the point that Marmatag was making. You can't afford to run 2-3 different fleet detachments depending on Tyrants/Trygon Primes/Tervigons for your synapse. Even Tyrants, which are the most durable monster in our book, go down pretty quickly this edition. Most competent armies will kill at least 1 tyrant with shooting/psychic, and competitive armies can kill 2+.
Amishprn86 wrote: The idea was "Give them more threats than just your HT's"
Not saying those examples are perfect, it was the idea of the examples to give you a visual instead of me just saying "dont put 1 threat as a target".
That's obvious. We all know that. But, if you have two hive fleets, whichever hive fleet needs synapse more is going to lose their HT first, and then be assed out.
Which is the point that Marmatag was making. You can't afford to run 2-3 different fleet detachments depending on Tyrants/Trygon Primes/Tervigons for your synapse. Even Tyrants, which are the most durable monster in our book, go down pretty quickly this edition. Most competent armies will kill at least 1 tyrant with shooting/psychic, and competitive armies can kill 2+.
Exactly.
It's beyond easy to kill hive tyrants. A 4++ save is so streaky. Sometimes you'll play games where your tyrants are just juggernauts running around the field smashing face. Sometimes you'll lose them to literally 2-3 -3AP d6 damage shots, which essentially every army outside of a mirror match can produce with ease.
I love kraken but mobility isn't enough if you aren't getting passed screens. I need to playtest more.
I did play a game against guard, and I won, because I was able to surround his leafblower with hormagaunts. He also wasn't expecting my hormagaunts to move 44" turn 1, counting charge + pile in. Thanks Kraken & Swarmlord.
But i lost another game to Eldar, failing powers and charges. Rather painful. He actually had fire prisms, and did the twin linked hits and wounds stratagem with the heavy gun. When they shoot a trygon with -5 AP guns that do d6, hitting/wounding on 3s rerolling? Bye felicia.
Just had a great game against a great foot eldar player and list. We played ITC mission 3. I played my split Kronos/Kraken twin battalions. In short I lost but I learned a lot. Big take aways:
- Not loving the split hive fleets. Going to move to a mono fleet next game.
- HVC was not successful. Ran on two HT and they did ziltch. Going to switch to twin devourers.
- in ITC rules make sure to run units of 19. Got killed on secondaries.
- Trygons need a real good plan and deployment. I am thinking primes may be best to get a shadow of the warp close.
- Raveners are awesome. Take with two scything talons and spinefists so cheap and effective.
- Hive guard with implaers are sooo good.
- Probably best to blob genestealers to maximize buffs. Unit of 19 is mandatory in my next list.
buddha wrote: Just had a great game against a great foot eldar player and list. We played ITC mission 3. I played my split Kronos/Kraken twin battalions. In short I lost but I learned a lot. Big take aways:
- Not loving the split hive fleets. Going to move to a mono fleet next game.
- HVC was not successful. Ran on two HT and they did ziltch. Going to switch to twin devourers.
- in ITC rules make sure to run units of 19. Got killed on secondaries.
- Trygons need a real good plan and deployment. I am thinking primes may be best to get a shadow of the warp close.
- Raveners are awesome. Take with two scything talons and spinefists so cheap and effective.
- Hive guard with implaers are sooo good.
- Probably best to blob genestealers to maximize buffs. Unit of 19 is mandatory in my next list.
I think some of these takeaways are good, but in a take all comers list you will run into artillery and lose your hive guard first.
Trygons are better served with adrenal glands.
Running hormagaunts in squads of 19 is a big mistake. They can only get 4 total points overall for killing units above 10. Yeah they'll get 2 points per unit of 30 removed, but the loss in utility is simply not worth it. I tried a game with them like this, and it just went horribly. You're stopping them from scoring at most 2 points and you lose a HUGE chunk of your utility.
Hive Guard in general seem good. I ran a brood with Shock Cannons last week to try them out and they wrecked the opponent's vehicles. The mortal wounds on a 4+ are really nice, plus having the assault type lets them stay mobile while firing to full effect.
buddha wrote: Just had a great game against a great foot eldar player and list. We played ITC mission 3. I played my split Kronos/Kraken twin battalions. In short I lost but I learned a lot. Big take aways:
- Not loving the split hive fleets. Going to move to a mono fleet next game.
- HVC was not successful. Ran on two HT and they did ziltch. Going to switch to twin devourers.
- in ITC rules make sure to run units of 19. Got killed on secondaries.
- Trygons need a real good plan and deployment. I am thinking primes may be best to get a shadow of the warp close.
- Raveners are awesome. Take with two scything talons and spinefists so cheap and effective.
- Hive guard with implaers are sooo good.
- Probably best to blob genestealers to maximize buffs. Unit of 19 is mandatory in my next list.
You don't think rending claws are good on Raveners to turn them into mini genestealer packs?
buddha wrote: Just had a great game against a great foot eldar player and list. We played ITC mission 3. I played my split Kronos/Kraken twin battalions. In short I lost but I learned a lot. Big take aways:
- Not loving the split hive fleets. Going to move to a mono fleet next game.
- HVC was not successful. Ran on two HT and they did ziltch. Going to switch to twin devourers.
- in ITC rules make sure to run units of 19. Got killed on secondaries.
- Trygons need a real good plan and deployment. I am thinking primes may be best to get a shadow of the warp close.
- Raveners are awesome. Take with two scything talons and spinefists so cheap and effective.
- Hive guard with implaers are sooo good.
- Probably best to blob genestealers to maximize buffs. Unit of 19 is mandatory in my next list.
You don't think rending claws are good on Raveners to turn them into mini genestealer packs?
I didn't find a need. Scything talons give +1 attack and the re-rolls. Due to their stats Raveners are best for mulching chaff or backfield units which doesn't need the rends and they aren't meant for charging into heavy infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Switching gears, has anyone used a scythed heirodule with any success post-codex? I have one sitting on a shelf and can't seem to find a great list to fit one in. Jorgamundur seems like the best choice for one but the rest of the list never comes together.
I would use a Barbed instead of a Scythed for Jorm. I would think you would want it sitting in the back blasting away with the +1 armor and using the healing strategem to keep it regenerating and alive.
For a Scythed I would go with... Kraken? So you can fall back and recharge to keep the striking first going at all times and allowing your other units to get their shots in to soften it's targets.
I might be mistaken but I think the Hierodules already had the ability to charge after falling back from combat in their monstrous behemoth rules. I'd probably use Behemoth or Leviathan personally, with the former to insure it gets into combat and the latter for a small survivability boost vs mortal wounds and the like should catalyst fail to go off.
Kronos was Malathrope, Neurothrope, 3 Hive Guard w impaler, and 3 Exocrines as my firebase. Gave them some gaunt bubble wrap
Jorm Was a tyrgon Prime w 29 devilgaunts in his hole with neurothropes and the Damecheron. (sp) with troop filler
The firebase was very nasty. -1 to hit all of them, plus the exocrine got 2 turns of using the strat that increases damage by 1. So 12 shots, BS 3 rerolling 1s for -3 3 damage is gross. Very good at killing tanks, even t8 ones. the base took down 2 other vechiles a turn. The trygon with devils was as good as expected. Buckets of dice but you do kill stuff, especially when you shoot twice with them.
Has adrenial glands on trygon as its a 100% must take. He rank in and crushed another tank.
The Damechion was a pretty big disappointment. He looks amazing as a model and on paper, but he never killed any infantry (always failing to wound a SOB somehow..) and never got 6s to wound with his claws. Not ruling him out, but feel he doesent fit well as im eating through CP and need more and he takes up to many points for a FA option.
I didn't have a issue with Synapse taking two fleets, but it is annoying to remember whos with who. Will need to use beads or something to mark it.
Other option is going with my orgional plan of all Jorm list. As it gives the deepstrike and your fire base is -1 to hit with a 2+ save
I've been trying out a Jormungandr list with a bunch of Neurothropes. It has 4 Neurothropes, 3 Hive tyrants and a Broodlord for a good deal of Smite as necessary. It's also packing a 20 man genestealer unit, a bunch of biovores and pyrovores and a few hive guard. Raveners as a delivery system and the rest is mostly rippers.
It's doing quite nicely in the 3 games I've played so far, one against Guard, one against Marines and one against Chaos.
The stealers have Extended Carapace and with the Jormungandr trait and Catalyst are a very nice bulwark for the characters as well as an impressive melee threat. Typically I am dropping the Neurothropes, Stealers and Broodlord with one set of Raveners and the Pyrovores with the other set (so I don't Smite myself out of that 10" flamer range). The flying Hive Tyrants drop in different places depending on need.
The guard were the hardest matchup, but they only managed to kill 2 tyrants and about 10 stealers before I was through their screen and into their tanks at which point they couldn't do a lot. I killed 50-60 conscripts (from a bunch of squads) with shooting and Smite and the rest took a hammering from morale. I think he had ~150 to start and only 2 squads still in range of his Commissar with that relic after the shooting. He saved another squad with insane bravery, so I think he had ~ 30-40 conscripts left on his turn, which couldn't form an effective screen as they were all spread out in 1-10 man squads. I then took a hammering from the tanks and was on them the following turn. Fairly close game, the biovores helped a lot with finishing things.
The marines were an odd matchup as they were playing Guilliman with a mixture of tanks and infantry. probably had ~40 models all told. I held back on dropping until turn 3 and let him chase objectives getting out of position then dropped down to cut straight through to the primarch (there was only a Razorback between him and my forces where I dropped). He got back up again and started killing stuff, but was pulled down next turn by Stealers.
Chaos was nasty, brutal and short. Alpha Legion berserkers danced through my Rippers, hive guard and a bunch of biovores. I think I only had 2 models on the table at the end of his first turn. Then I dropped and gutted his entire backfield. The next 2 turns where 'serkers running into devourer fire then getting hit with a ton of smite and charged by stealers. We had a really fun game with that. Much carnage. FYI 'serkers charging pyrovores is hilarious.
I have had nothing but great experiences with claw/devourer Winged Tyrants. They're really durable in the face of the most common anti-tank weapons, they have a pretty good ability to remove screens, and they're going to be charging backline stuff on turn 2. The only thing they're really vulnerable to would be Guilliman-buffed heavy bolters or assault cannons.
I did misplay them badly in one game vs Eldar. I had 3 and put them all in deep strike, when I should have deployed at least 2 on the table to have easy charges on his Hemlocks. But even so they were my MVP units.
I've been playing them Leviathan for the 20% durability buff, alongside some other monsters like the Swarmlord and one or two walking Tyrants. Behemoth would also be a reasonable pick for better deep strike charge odds, but all I'm hitting is chaff anyway. I feel like I want 4 Tyrants in every list, and the fifth is still worth it even if I don't have a psychic power for him to cast on turn 1. More Tyrants lets you have redundant sources of psykery.
Is the Tyrannocyte dead apart from transporting Swarmlord?
I don't really see a reason to field one honestly. Maybe for an Acid Spray T-Fex?
I'd probably lean more towards one of the big melee bugs rather than a T-Fex as a monstrous passenger, either a Haruspex (now 80 points cheaper) or Toxicene. Both want to get close and have tool kits to handle most threats once they get to a target, they just need a bit of help getting across the board intact. Also outside of Jormungandr Tyrannocytes are the only way to drop Shock Guard on a juicy vehicle target and even with Jormungandr they offer a way to conserve command points for more 'stealers. Tyrannocytes also offer a convenient flying model to trigger Leviathan's unique stratagem.
If nothing else, they are cheaper than a Trygon and don't consume heavy support slots. If you are building a list with a lot of Biovores/Exocrines/Dakkafexes they are a handy alternative for dropping 'stealers up close.
Is the Tyrannocyte dead apart from transporting Swarmlord?
I don't really see a reason to field one honestly. Maybe for an Acid Spray T-Fex?
I hope not. I'd like to get a couple for my collection, I think they look cool. I rather like the idea of bringing a Haruspex or two in them. They have a move of 6" and can assault. They also have Fly, so they can float out of an Assault and shoot again if you want them too. Interestingly, their BS never drops unlike most Monsters/Vehicles. Barbed Stranglers firing at units of 10 or more do about double the damage over Deathspitters, so there might be something there. I briefly considered Venom Cannons before seeing their price hike over the index. Oof.
I think if you put your mind to it, they could be incredibly obnoxious for your opponent. You can also save on CPs.
If you wanted to put a Tervigon in a tyrannocyte, that does afford you the ability to actually get the Tervigon + 10 termagants as well, considering he can spawn them, and models held in reserve are at that point equivalent to reinforcement points.
Not sure why you'd do it, but it would be a way to get 1 monster and 10 guys out of a tyrannocyte.
How often are y'all actually able to not move your Exocrines or Tyrannofexes? Just doing the math, a Carnifex with a HVC is better against both kinds of vehicles point for point unless you account for the double shooting with no movement. If I'm taking a Kronos spearhead with 1x6 Hive Guard to double shoot, it looks like Carnifex may be the way to go unless I can reliably not move my Tyrannofex/Exocrine.
Chippen wrote: How often are y'all actually able to not move your Exocrines or Tyrannofexes? Just doing the math, a Carnifex with a HVC is better against both kinds of vehicles point for point unless you account for the double shooting with no movement. If I'm taking a Kronos spearhead with 1x6 Hive Guard to double shoot, it looks like Carnifex may be the way to go unless I can reliably not move my Tyrannofex/Exocrine.
Ive done a few games with Exocrines and Hiveguard sitting and never moving. One game as Kronos, the others as Jorm. I don't see the reason to ever move them with 36 inch range
My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Chippen wrote: My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Unsure. Personally, I'm all about the Acid Spray T-Fex over both, but I'm still painting it up, so I have zero real-life experience as of yet.
Chippen wrote: My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Yep as someone when playing 8th DE always have 3-5 Ravagers, they are always moving. I've only played with Acid Spray Tfex so far (not R-Cannon i mean) tho i have played Exocrines a few times and Fex's a few times now as well.
My Exocrine and Spray-TFex had to move a couple times every game.
It might be my area, we play with a lot of terrain, and not just Ruins, but hills, tree's, walls, pipes, bridges, etc....
Chippen wrote: My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Yep as someone when playing 8th DE always have 3-5 Ravagers, they are always moving. I've only played with Acid Spray Tfex so far (not R-Cannon i mean) tho i have played Exocrines a few times and Fex's a few times now as well.
My Exocrine and Spray-TFex had to move a couple times every game.
It might be my area, we play with a lot of terrain, and not just Ruins, but hills, tree's, walls, pipes, bridges, etc....
No doubt the Tfex is bad vs dark eldar. But from my MTG background this would be a case if having a bad matchup. If you are making an all commers list and DE are not a big part of the meta just write it down as a bad matchup and hope to dodge it.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Exocrines are less swingy than the Rupturefex between their weapon's higher volume of shots, fixed damage, and +1 to hit while stationary on top of firing twice. The Rupture Cannon itself also has had the misfortune of being... sub-optimal since the tail end of 5th edition so there is a bit of stigma there too. As is its new profile is probably the first time since 5th edition where it can perform its intended function.
I'm personally looking forward to trying my Tyrannofexes out. Just need some touch up work.
Chippen wrote: My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Yep as someone when playing 8th DE always have 3-5 Ravagers, they are always moving. I've only played with Acid Spray Tfex so far (not R-Cannon i mean) tho i have played Exocrines a few times and Fex's a few times now as well.
My Exocrine and Spray-TFex had to move a couple times every game.
It might be my area, we play with a lot of terrain, and not just Ruins, but hills, tree's, walls, pipes, bridges, etc....
No doubt the Tfex is bad vs dark eldar. But from my MTG background this would be a case if having a bad matchup. If you are making an all commers list and DE are not a big part of the meta just write it down as a bad matchup and hope to dodge it.
I meant, i also play DE and the are 36" range (Same as Exocrines) and even tho i play with 3-5 Ravagers i still move them all the time, i was agreeing with him that idk how consistent you can dbl shoot with them.
I just realised, metabolic overdrive can be used to make shure malanthropes actually keep up with the faster parts of our army. The pesky 5" is not so bad when I can go 10.
Niiai wrote: I just realised, metabolic overdrive can be used to make shure malanthropes actually keep up with the faster parts of our army. The pesky 5" is not so bad when I can go 10.
Kraken 3d6 advance isn't really that hard to keep up is it?
Chippen wrote: My experience with 36" guns is Ravagers on the DE side. I'm constantly having to move to get a shot at heir intended targets. I'm just working on a 500-700 pt Kronos detachment to be a firebase for the rest of a 2k Nid list.
Also, Why do I see Exocrines mentioned over the Tyrannofex all the time? Unless my math is wrong, the TFex with Rupture Cannon is better than Exocrine against vehicles, which would be the main pain point that I'd be trying to offset anyway.
Unsure. Personally, I'm all about the Acid Spray T-Fex over both, but I'm still painting it up, so I have zero real-life experience as of yet.
I have the same feeling - kind of regret having no magnet skills as I built mine with a rupture cannon. The big bummer on the acid spray fex is that it's still heavy so you can't advance and shoot it. Which probably means you aren't shooting turn 1 due to only 18 inch range. I see it as being much more usefull as a defensive element to a pure gun line army. It will lay waste to anything trying to approach it.
It depends. First you need to be kraken. And if you are kraken chances are what you are trying to escort is also advancing 3d6 and the innisial 5" move becomes a liabilaty again.
If you want to advnace and shoot with the acid spray that one psykick power can help you out. Cast from a Neuronthrope for better chances of rolling it. Maybe even a 5 point adrenal gland for an extra 1" range.
Exocrine Trygon Prime (Adrenal Glands) Relic: Ymgrl Factor
In both games, the Hive Tyrant Died on Turn 2 mainly killed by Dark Reapers. In one game I started him on the table in the other I deep struck him, and the Dark Reapers popped a strategem to shoot out of turn at him.
In both games I lose the Exocrine to webway portal fire dragons. In both games, the Genestealers died to a combination of: A big unit of swooping hawks, A big unit of Warp Spiders, and a Max unit of Guardians.
I had board control both games, and actually managed to tie the 2nd one on points playing the ITC Champs missions despite being tabled on turn 6.
It felt like my list was too balanced giving his anti-tank good targets while I was also giving his anti-infantry good targets. I need to revise it. I was thinking that if I drop the Exocrine, and replace it with more Hive Guard and a unit of Biovores I might not give opponents such juicy targets because I can deploy the Hive Guard and Biovores out of LOS. I'll deep strike the Flyrant and Trygon Prime at the same turn, it negates some of the Anti-Tank for at least one turn.
This is what I'm thinking:
Spoiler:
One easy change for the ITC Champs missions is to make the Neurothrope my Warlord. That makes it harder to get secondary points off of me.
I'm leaning towards a Broodlord in my 2k list. He very much will benefit the genestealers, and I don't have to worry about him getting faced in seconds. I might run him and some genestealers as Genestealer cults, for the cult ambush. It'll be wonky but i'll try anything at this stage. because why not!
Marmatag wrote: I'm leaning towards a Broodlord in my 2k list. He very much will benefit the genestealers, and I don't have to worry about him getting faced in seconds. I might run him and some genestealers as Genestealer cults, for the cult ambush. It'll be wonky but i'll try anything at this stage. because why not!
My experience with the broodlord is that his genestealer buff has never made a lick of difference. Either the genestealers overkill something or hitting on 2's wouldn't have made a significant difference. That was the original form of this list before I realized how close in price the Hive Tyrant was.
Marmatag wrote: I'm leaning towards a Broodlord in my 2k list. He very much will benefit the genestealers, and I don't have to worry about him getting faced in seconds. I might run him and some genestealers as Genestealer cults, for the cult ambush. It'll be wonky but i'll try anything at this stage. because why not!
I was using broodlords when I was playing index nids.
They're good, but too costly.
They'll outlive flyrants, but do the same gak as Genestealers, so if you're gonna drop flyrants for a broodlord, just take genestealers instead.
The more I play the more I'm feeling that MORE GENESTEALERS is the solution to all the problems that we have a viable answer for.
Marmatag wrote: I'm leaning towards a Broodlord in my 2k list. He very much will benefit the genestealers, and I don't have to worry about him getting faced in seconds. I might run him and some genestealers as Genestealer cults, for the cult ambush. It'll be wonky but i'll try anything at this stage. because why not!
I was using broodlords when I was playing index nids.
They're good, but too costly.
They'll outlive flyrants, but do the same gak as Genestealers, so if you're gonna drop flyrants for a broodlord, just take genestealers instead.
The more I play the more I'm feeling that MORE GENESTEALERS is the solution to all the problems that we have a viable answer for.
I may be biased because i don't like the models, but i feel that they are too frail for what they cost. They are great now, but as soon as players learn to bring counters to assault armies and not only "Bring more pew pew!!!", these guys will suffer. I'm thinking about aggressors in particular, according to the rumors a squad of those will be around 100 points, but will erase 12,6 stealers on average every shooting phase (without buffs, with reroll to hit they almost delete a 20 stealer blob), while being a soft counter to our fexes and tyrants with theyr power fists. I think that 2 or 3 of these squads will become a staple of many SM lists, what do we have to counter those? Remember, they can pop the Auspex stratagem too.
Marmatag wrote: I'm leaning towards a Broodlord in my 2k list. He very much will benefit the genestealers, and I don't have to worry about him getting faced in seconds. I might run him and some genestealers as Genestealer cults, for the cult ambush. It'll be wonky but i'll try anything at this stage. because why not!
I was using broodlords when I was playing index nids.
They're good, but too costly.
They'll outlive flyrants, but do the same gak as Genestealers, so if you're gonna drop flyrants for a broodlord, just take genestealers instead.
The more I play the more I'm feeling that MORE GENESTEALERS is the solution to all the problems that we have a viable answer for.
I may be biased because i don't like the models, but i feel that they are too frail for what they cost. They are great now, but as soon as players learn to bring counters to assault armies and not only "Bring more pew pew!!!", these guys will suffer. I'm thinking about aggressors in particular, according to the rumors a squad of those will be around 100 points, but will erase 12,6 stealers on average every shooting phase (without buffs, with reroll to hit they almost delete a 20 stealer blob), while being a soft counter to our fexes and tyrants with theyr power fists. I think that 2 or 3 of these squads will become a staple of many SM lists, what do we have to counter those? Remember, they can pop the Auspex stratagem too.
You're right, if nids start to take over, people will adjust to hordes. As the meta shifts, so will we. Right now I feel like more GS is the answer, but when people adjust to hordes, more GS will no longer be the answer.
Auspex is limited to 12" and at -1 to hit, unlike the Eldar, so it's a bit more possible to play around, but it is still certainly dangerous.
We're pretty lucky in that we have a lot of deployment options and a wide variety of viable units. Melee Fex are cheap and actually hit fairly hard, but with a meta centered around taking down Magnus/Morty/Tanks they're just not very durable. If the meta changes, that could also change. Haruspex are really expensive, but a few things changing here and there in rules, meta, etc. they could very well become viable.
I think nids are good enough to start winning, but I don't think they're popular enough to shift the meta significantly. Even though IG is the most powerful codex, chaos is still more prevalent just because people like it more, and it's viable. When Orks get a codex though... another major horde army may be enough to increase the odds of seeing hordes on the regular to shift the meta. Who knows though.
Exocrine
Trygon Prime (Adrenal Glands) Relic: Ymgrl Factor
In both games, the Hive Tyrant Died on Turn 2 mainly killed by Dark Reapers. In one game I started him on the table in the other I deep struck him, and the Dark Reapers popped a strategem to shoot out of turn at him.
In both games I lose the Exocrine to webway portal fire dragons. In both games, the Genestealers died to a combination of: A big unit of swooping hawks, A big unit of Warp Spiders, and a Max unit of Guardians.
I had board control both games, and actually managed to tie the 2nd one on points playing the ITC Champs missions despite being tabled on turn 6.
It felt like my list was too balanced giving his anti-tank good targets while I was also giving his anti-infantry good targets. I need to revise it. I was thinking that if I drop the Exocrine, and replace it with more Hive Guard and a unit of Biovores I might not give opponents such juicy targets because I can deploy the Hive Guard and Biovores out of LOS. I'll deep strike the Flyrant and Trygon Prime at the same turn, it negates some of the Anti-Tank for at least one turn.
This is what I'm thinking:
Spoiler:
One easy change for the ITC Champs missions is to make the Neurothrope my Warlord. That makes it harder to get secondary points off of me.
I'd appreciate any advice, keeping in mind that I can't duplicate anything but troops, and have to run a single battallion.
If you can free up 30 points you can have a unit of spore mines. You already have a mucolid spore, but they you get a hure aerie to deny deep strikers that do not give up first blood.
NackaNid wrote: Can you still use Shrikes even though they are excluded in the codex in tournament play?
Really need some flying in my list... Bought some gargolyes to strip the wings off but now I'm wondering if I can use them at all.
If I can, it would be an unit of 6 with BS and scything talons to keep the cost down.
Yes and they are not excluded from tourny play. You always use the most current datasheet. In this case the most current is the index. You pay the points cost and use the profile for it's weapons from the codex however, so they got a price drop from wargear. I always ran my shrikes as BS scy tal and fleshhooks.
NackaNid wrote: Can you still use Shrikes even though they are excluded in the codex in tournament play?
Really need some flying in my list... Bought some gargolyes to strip the wings off but now I'm wondering if I can use them at all.
If I can, it would be an unit of 6 with BS and scything talons to keep the cost down.
Yes and they are not excluded from tourny play. You always use the most current datasheet. In this case the most current is the index. You pay the points cost and use the profile for it's weapons from the codex however, so they got a price drop from wargear. I always ran my shrikes as BS scy tal and fleshhooks.
Be mindful though that Primes no longer synergize with them.
NackaNid wrote: Can you still use Shrikes even though they are excluded in the codex in tournament play?
Really need some flying in my list... Bought some gargolyes to strip the wings off but now I'm wondering if I can use them at all.
If I can, it would be an unit of 6 with BS and scything talons to keep the cost down.
Yes and they are not excluded from tourny play. You always use the most current datasheet. In this case the most current is the index. You pay the points cost and use the profile for it's weapons from the codex however, so they got a price drop from wargear. I always ran my shrikes as BS scy tal and fleshhooks.
Be mindful though that Primes no longer synergize with them.
Never really did to begin with. Shrikes were too fast for the prime to keep pace. Also their Fly made them good surgical strike units, moving over enemy chaff to hit more vital targets which the prime couldn't do.
I main with Cultist-heavy CSM and I'm surprised that people haven’t already adjusted to hordes. Though I guess competitive Chaos players are spamming Malefic Lords and minimaxed Horrors, and the Conscript bogeyman has been banished.
Playing against my friend’s Tyranids, he had a Swarmlorded Genestealer horde. A few Stranglers was easily enough to wreck my screen to allow stealers to run in between the survivors and get to my Havocs.
Definitely looking into T-cyte Swarmlord, 30 Trygon Hormagaunts, and Pheremoned Tyrant Guard for my own Behemoth deep insertion force. Onslaught on the Horms looks good, with AGs that’s getting them well into the 9” bubble, T-cyte Stranglethorns should make a good contribution to opening a breach for them to flood through. Probably Catalyst on Swarmie? Old One Eye’s probably going to be my Warlord...
I finally found a unit that gets the most out of Hydra fleet! Crushing Tguards!
They get 50% increased damage against vehicles from the Hydra adaptation.
And that's it... no seriously, i really like Hydra, but it seems to be a couple of steps behind other fleets.
Spoletta wrote: I finally found a unit that gets the most out of Hydra fleet! Crushing Tguards!
They get 50% increased damage against vehicles from the Hydra adaptation.
And that's it... no seriously, i really like Hydra, but it seems to be a couple of steps behind other fleets.
In my oppinion Hydra is much better than its reputation. It certainly has the advantage that Tyranid units are either a) always bigger than the enemy units or b) much more deadly in melee than enemy units anyway.
I think a lot of things in the Codex profits from the Hydra rerolls: Gargs, Hormas, Termas, TGuard and the units not benefitting do not need the bonus most of the time anyway.
Besides it is the only adaptation which grants rerolls to hit in melee.
Thinking of giving this Behemoth list a try at 2000 points:
Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Malanthrope
HQ: Hive Tyrant with wings, 2x devourers, bio-artefact talons, adrenal glands
Troop: 20 Genestealers with rending claws
Troop: 29 Termagaunts with Devourers
Troop: 3 Ripper Swarms
Elite: 3 Hive Guard with Shock Cannons
Elite: 3 Hive Guard with Shock Cannons
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ: Old One Eye
Heavy: Trygon
Heavy: Trygon with toxin spike
Heavy: 3 Carnifex with 2x talons, adrenal glands, tusks, bone mace
Fortification Network:
1 Sporocyst with 5 Barbed Stranglers
The idea being that 1 group drops close to the enemy ( 2 Trygons bringing in the gaunts and stealers, the hive tyrant, and the sporocyst) while the second group walks up the field trying to pincer ( 3 carnifexs, old one eye, malanthrope, rippers, and both hive guard groups)
The hive guard are for helping bust open vehicles, while the sporocyst, tyrant, and gaunts with the double tap strategem should be able to clear a decent amount of chaff, enabling the trygons, stealers and even the tyrant to attempt a first turn charge with the behemoth reroll charge.
It looks to me like there’s a really good carnifex that can be built for 120 points. Talons, Heavy Venom Cannon, BS3+, bone mace and spine banks. There's a case for spore banks instead of spines, though that pushes the price up a bit.
You get something that functions a lot like a dreadnought with a twin lascannon, but for quite a lot less cost (120 vs 162). At that price I think they are pretty spammable. It also moves and shoots with no penalty, though it's arguably not as good in cc.
Does this seem a good approach? I can see a case for taking a load of these things. You could have them trundle forwards behind your faster troops, whose job would be to tie enemies up in melee to reduce the fire that came back at you.
Mandragola wrote: It looks to me like there’s a really good carnifex that can be built for 120 points. Talons, Heavy Venom Cannon, BS3+, bone mace and spine banks. There's a case for spore banks instead of spines, though that pushes the price up a bit.
You get something that functions a lot like a dreadnought with a twin lascannon, but for quite a lot less cost (120 vs 162). At that price I think they are pretty spammable. It also moves and shoots with no penalty, though it's arguably not as good in cc.
Does this seem a good approach? I can see a case for taking a load of these things. You could have them trundle forwards behind your faster troops, whose job would be to tie enemies up in melee to reduce the fire that came back at you.
Apart from really dumb comibinations, then all Cfexes have a role and can be efficent. I have 3 in my Kraken brigade and each has a different loadout.
Mandragola wrote: It looks to me like there’s a really good carnifex that can be built for 120 points. Talons, Heavy Venom Cannon, BS3+, bone mace and spine banks. There's a case for spore banks instead of spines, though that pushes the price up a bit.
You get something that functions a lot like a dreadnought with a twin lascannon, but for quite a lot less cost (120 vs 162). At that price I think they are pretty spammable. It also moves and shoots with no penalty, though it's arguably not as good in cc.
Does this seem a good approach? I can see a case for taking a load of these things. You could have them trundle forwards behind your faster troops, whose job would be to tie enemies up in melee to reduce the fire that came back at you.
Apart from really dumb comibinations, then all Cfexes have a role and can be efficent. I have 3 in my Kraken brigade and each has a different loadout.
Thanks for that. Carnifexes seem amazing to me, so I’m wondering why I don’t see more of them in people’s lists.
I guess I'm considering the use of ~6 of these guys as a way to have good ranged AT in a tyrannid army. They’d do 13.33 wounds per turn to Leman Russ equivalents at range, then make a mess of things in melee.
I’m trying to work out whether this approach makes more sense than going for heavier stuff, like Tyrannofexes. It seems to me that it does.
They probably do need spore cysts instead of spine banks to survive for long against leafblowers. The plan would still be to tie those up in gants or stealers while the big guys plodded into range. I’m looking at a Kraken list so it ought to be pretty quick. I’m trying to work out whether I need the swarmlord in there too or should just get a bunch of neurothropes as my HQs.
Spoletta wrote: I finally found a unit that gets the most out of Hydra fleet! Crushing Tguards!
They get 50% increased damage against vehicles from the Hydra adaptation.
And that's it... no seriously, i really like Hydra, but it seems to be a couple of steps behind other fleets.
I was brainstorming this exact thing over the weekend. I'm very much pulled towards Hydra (or Kraken, or Behemoth...gah!) and the idea that I can let a Tyrant guard unit give up their bodies being a shield wall, protecting my hive tyrant, and then bring them back using the Endless Swarm Strat (along with Pheromone Trail if I'd like) is pretty attractive (though that is 3 CP, which is a pretty large investement).
Comparing Carnifex with Heavy Venom Cannon to Tyranofex as a shooting platform, assuming the Tyranofex can stand still, you need 3 Carnifex to get the same shooting output. That's 350-400 points depending on setup, the T-Fex is only 239 and you get better AP and Str and D. The Carnifex, though, are more mobile and have better CC ability, so I think they are about right. I can see reasons for taking either, though I tend to take Exocrines and Hive Guard instead. Hive Guard being infantry gives them access to Single Minded Annihilation, which is glorious.
The advantage of the carnifexes is about board coverage for melee as well as shooting output. A Tyrannofex is certainly really dangerous if it can stand still, but is far less of a threat than a bunch of fexes coming forward. And the hive guard are actually vulnerable in cc, rather than being a threat.
Spoletta wrote: I finally found a unit that gets the most out of Hydra fleet! Crushing Tguards!
They get 50% increased damage against vehicles from the Hydra adaptation.
And that's it... no seriously, i really like Hydra, but it seems to be a couple of steps behind other fleets.
In my oppinion Hydra is much better than its reputation. It certainly has the advantage that Tyranid units are either a) always bigger than the enemy units or b) much more deadly in melee than enemy units anyway.
I think a lot of things in the Codex profits from the Hydra rerolls: Gargs, Hormas, Termas, TGuard and the units not benefitting do not need the bonus most of the time anyway.
Besides it is the only adaptation which grants rerolls to hit in melee.
I think hydra is a slepper hit. By the end of 8th edition people will have horrible stories of the time they met hydra. Genstealers, taramgaunts, warriors, raveners and shrikes are are all good. Many units are 1 model, and few are more then 10. The artifact and warlord trait are not bad. I stil think the stratafem is good with devil gaunts.
Spoletta wrote: I finally found a unit that gets the most out of Hydra fleet! Crushing Tguards!
They get 50% increased damage against vehicles from the Hydra adaptation.
And that's it... no seriously, i really like Hydra, but it seems to be a couple of steps behind other fleets.
In my oppinion Hydra is much better than its reputation. It certainly has the advantage that Tyranid units are either a) always bigger than the enemy units or b) much more deadly in melee than enemy units anyway.
I think a lot of things in the Codex profits from the Hydra rerolls: Gargs, Hormas, Termas, TGuard and the units not benefitting do not need the bonus most of the time anyway.
Besides it is the only adaptation which grants rerolls to hit in melee.
I think hydra is a slepper hit. By the end of 8th edition people will have horrible stories of the time they met hydra. Genstealers, taramgaunts, warriors, raveners and shrikes are are all good. Many units are 1 model, and few are more then 10. The artifact and warlord trait are not bad. I stil think the stratafem is good with devil gaunts.
I posted this in another thread talking about pheromone trail.
Eihnlazer wrote: Btw you can get a prime in reserve using the Jormurgundyr stratagem to put him in the tunnels below.
Yeah but then why are you spending the extra CP to bring him to a lictor instead of just coming with the Jorm unit your already spending the CP on? The only use I can see is in conjunction with Endless Swarm to deploy the revived unit into a better location instead of the edges of the board. But then how are you fitting 30 hormagaunts or termagants around a lictor? I guess hydra could use it to shove some pyrovores back into someones face.
I think that is a really good use of Hydras stratagem. Not brining back large units of termagants and hormagaunts, but using pheromone trail to drop pyros right back in their face to wreck face all over again.
Dono but I just got 6 in the mail. I assume they will do pretty well but I have almost no idea how to make a shooty nids list. Too many options and it's driving me insane.
lindsay40k wrote: I main with Cultist-heavy CSM and I'm surprised that people haven’t already adjusted to hordes. Though I guess competitive Chaos players are spamming Malefic Lords and minimaxed Horrors, and the Conscript bogeyman has been banished.
Conscripts are definitely still a thing. If you don't plan on chewing through a minimum of 60 GEQ models at the competitive level, you're in for a bad time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Has anyone tried spamming hive guards, if so how did it go?
The beauty of single use stratagems is that there is no reason to take more than just a single unit, or maybe 2 units of 3.
Personally, I will try out a single unit of 6, but math dictates that I'm going to be a little less than wowed by their damage output. Then again, I'm kind of comparing them to obliterators mentally, and it's a bit of an apples and oranges situation. The great thing about hive guard is that they should reliably shoot more than once. It's why I'm a little reluctant to invest in an exocrine, though I know it can do work. More likely, I'll settle on an acid spray T fex, but that doesn't need to be Kronos....and I REALLY just don't like the idea of big bugs that don't have invulns. Just totally a field day for lascannons and the like. I'll try out an acid spray T fex because it murders flyers and has a deceptive threat range since you don't need to roll to hit. Just advance all day every day. Too bad there isn't a hive fleet adaption to fall back and shoot haha.
lindsay40k wrote: I main with Cultist-heavy CSM and I'm surprised that people haven’t already adjusted to hordes. Though I guess competitive Chaos players are spamming Malefic Lords and minimaxed Horrors, and the Conscript bogeyman has been banished.
Conscripts are definitely still a thing. If you don't plan on chewing through a minimum of 60 GEQ models at the competitive level, you're in for a bad time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Has anyone tried spamming hive guards, if so how did it go?
The beauty of single use stratagems is that there is no reason to take more than just a single unit, or maybe 2 units of 3.
Personally, I will try out a single unit of 6, but math dictates that I'm going to be a little less than wowed by their damage output. Then again, I'm kind of comparing them to obliterators mentally, and it's a bit of an apples and oranges situation. The great thing about hive guard is that they should reliably shoot more than once. It's why I'm a little reluctant to invest in an exocrine, though I know it can do work. More likely, I'll settle on an acid spray T fex, but that doesn't need to be Kronos....and I REALLY just don't like the idea of big bugs that don't have invulns. Just totally a field day for lascannons and the like. I'll try out an acid spray T fex because it murders flyers and has a deceptive threat range since you don't need to roll to hit. Just advance all day every day. Too bad there isn't a hive fleet adaption to fall back and shoot haha.
Take big bugs with Jormungandr. With the +1 from cover, you will have a 5+ armor save against lascannons.
I wrote this. Ready to stir the pot a bit. Interested to see what people think. This is very long so I started a new thread.
Basically ranking all the various Hive Fleets, relics, wlt, stratagems. Note this is only the named ones, so general relics and what not are not included.
Currently have 8 impailer Hive guard and plan to get 2 guard boxes to make 6 tyrant guard (for my Tyrant swarm) then take the 12 guns(6 imp/6Shock) and convert 12 of my nearly 30 tyranid warriors into hive guard. This will give me a total of 20 Hive guard 14 impailers and 6 shock should make for some rude games when a tyrrannocyte of 6 shock guard come n with 14 impailer guard in the back with a malanthrope are fireing away :-)
Hydra and gorgon are both literal trash-tier, in almost every respect. Hydras warlord trait is terrible. If your warlord is not a malanthrope/neurothrope/broodlord, there's zero excuse for your opponent to not kill it in one turn. Any army that is even remotely competitive will pick up a Tyrant in one turn, barring some extreme luck. Even if it makes it through, the odds of recovering enough wounds to survive the next round are pitiful, at best. As someone who has run regen on my tyrants for years, I say with full confidence that the ability is trash, and a waste of a warlord trait. I would rather take the 6+++ out of the BRB than this. Hydra doesn't even get it's own stratagem, it just gets a fancier version of one of our most useless stratagems. As for Gorgon.... if you lose a game because of rolled 1s to wound, there are things that went wrong in a lot of other places. The Gorgon relic is trash for the same reason that the Hydra WL trait is trash-you are not likely to survive a full round of shooting, especially once your opponent knows you have this ability.
The fact you think Jormungandr is the worst is almost beyond incomprehensible to me.
I mean, in a lot of situations jormungandr is significantly more total damage reduction than Leviathan, combined with one of the strongest stratagems, there is zero argument for it to be rated worst.
Nothing about Leviathan is good. Except in situations where you don't get to use your armor save, increasing your save is always statistically equal, or better, than a 6+++. The only army that could make strong use of leviathan would be a flyrant spam army.
Behemoth is actually probably the fourth best. It does not make deep strike charges reliable enough, and DS charges are still completely at the mercy of screens, but being able to reroll all charges can be completely game changing. Nothing can ruin your day worse than failing multiple 5-7" charges in one turn.
Kronos and Jormungandr are in competition for 2nd/3rd. Kronos is far stronger vs anything with psyerks, but Jormungandr is super flexible and viable for a lot of different units and builds.
Mobility and staying power wins games for Tyranids, not killing power. This is why Kraken is the best fleet, by a large margin. Both the trait and the strat enable you to dominate the boardspace. The relic reduces BS3 damage by 25%, BS4 damage by 33%, and BS5 damage by 50%, double that if you're sitting ontop of a malanthrope.
Jorm gives you flexibility, and it gives us durability. This is why it's our second best fleet.
Kronos is only our third best fleet because of how powerful smite spam is currently. The WL trait is a gigantic middle finger to large blobs of cheap smite batteries, and the stratagem gives us a chance to shut down builds that revolve around certain single special powers. Should smite spam go away, Kronos will lose a lot of its luster. Tyranid gunlines are just not as good as other armies, and while you can build some that are pretty good, I doubt they'll even compete in a head to head shooting match with AM. If they were, I'd wager it would be using jormungandr.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Hydra and gorgon are both literal trash-tier, in almost every respect. Hydras warlord trait is terrible. If your warlord is not a malanthrope/neurothrope/broodlord, there's zero excuse for your opponent to not kill it in one turn. Any army that is even remotely competitive will pick up a Tyrant in one turn, barring some extreme luck. Even if it makes it through, the odds of recovering enough wounds to survive the next round are pitiful, at best. As someone who has run regen on my tyrants for years, I say with full confidence that the ability is trash, and a waste of a warlord trait. I would rather take the 6+++ out of the BRB than this. Hydra doesn't even get it's own stratagem, it just gets a fancier version of one of our most useless stratagems. As for Gorgon.... if you lose a game because of rolled 1s to wound, there are things that went wrong in a lot of other places. The Gorgon relic is trash for the same reason that the Hydra WL trait is trash-you are not likely to survive a full round of shooting, especially once your opponent knows you have this ability.
The fact you think Jormungandr is the worst is almost beyond incomprehensible to me.
I mean, in a lot of situations jormungandr is significantly more total damage reduction than Leviathan, combined with one of the strongest stratagems, there is zero argument for it to be rated worst.
Nothing about Leviathan is good. Except in situations where you don't get to use your armor save, increasing your save is always statistically equal, or better, than a 6+++. The only army that could make strong use of leviathan would be a flyrant spam army.
Behemoth is actually probably the fourth best. It does not make deep strike charges reliable enough, and DS charges are still completely at the mercy of screens, but being able to reroll all charges can be completely game changing. Nothing can ruin your day worse than failing multiple 5-7" charges in one turn.
Kronos and Jormungandr are in competition for 2nd/3rd. Kronos is far stronger vs anything with psyerks, but Jormungandr is super flexible and viable for a lot of different units and builds.
Mobility and staying power wins games for Tyranids, not killing power. This is why Kraken is the best fleet, by a large margin. Both the trait and the strat enable you to dominate the boardspace. The relic reduces BS3 damage by 25%, BS4 damage by 33%, and BS5 damage by 50%, double that if you're sitting ontop of a malanthrope.
Jorm gives you flexibility, and it gives us durability. This is why it's our second best fleet.
Kronos is only our third best fleet because of how powerful smite spam is currently. The WL trait is a gigantic middle finger to large blobs of cheap smite batteries, and the stratagem gives us a chance to shut down builds that revolve around certain single special powers. Should smite spam go away, Kronos will lose a lot of its luster. Tyranid gunlines are just not as good as other armies, and while you can build some that are pretty good, I doubt they'll even compete in a head to head shooting match with AM. If they were, I'd wager it would be using jormungandr.
Seems legit. Behemoth feels powerful but not OP, I'm happy to have my bugs painted in their OG colours. Having a few Khorne CSM units, I can definitely vouch for charge rerolls. I welcome Kronos into the metagame, I'm really not keen on all this Malefic Lord spam I'm reading about.
Jorm is going to be a very high ranking tourney list within the year. Mark my words on that.
If you bring a good mix of units to be tac and work within the jorm strat and adaptation you can litterally retailer your lists deployment and strategy match by match to combat your opponents list and best meet the objectives of the game type and terrain layout. You can adjust which and how many units deepstrike, where, when, and to what effect.
Jorm is close to if not flat out the most flexible and diverse for strategic advantage force in the entire game right now.
To put them last on the list is just.... Unthinkable.
Actually i really like Gorgon, in particular for the relic. With the -1 damage warlord trait and some Tguards this combos into a really really though tyrant. The relic and trait activate even if you pass the wound to a guard.
Also, Jorm and Kraken right now are seen as the best fleets because they have good match ups against gunlines, not because the other fleets are not as good. If the game were more assault centered, then Gorgon would be the best fleet. That said, nothing forbids that after 2 or 3 more codices like ours (Orks and Khorne for example) the game will not become assault centered.
The problem with Jorm is that so much of my army wants to advance turn 1. While I'd pick Kraken if I had to only pick one, I really think there's room for most fleets, in tailored lists. Leviathan has nice versatility, mostly because Flyrants are so good. I'm about to test a Horde Hydra list. Max size gaunts, GS, Gargoyles, and Warriors. It'll bring back memories for me.
Well the solution to Jormungandr and advancing is that by agressively deep striking a huge chunk of your army, including some high priority threats, you take some of the heat off the further away stuff. You can also pick and choose which units need to close fast, and which can take their time a little because of the tunnelling units holding the enemy up (probably those with a natively high move rate).
Ranking Hive fleets is folly. You can do it if you say "take THIS particular list, apply the hive fleet adaptations to it, and then rank them", but if you're saying one hive fleet is ALWAYS better than another, you're setting yourself up.
The Hive Fleets are good/bad based on how you build your list(s) in concert with the adaptations, strats, relics, etc. That is all...
Voidwraith wrote: Ranking Hive fleets is folly. You can do it if you say "take THIS particular list, apply the hive fleet adaptations to it, and then rank them", but if you're saying one hive fleet is ALWAYS better than another, you're setting yourself up.
The Hive Fleets are good/bad based on how you build your list(s) in concert with the adaptations, strats, relics, etc. That is all...
Exactly, which is why i've been doing the ranking for the hyve fleets on a unit per unit basis (you found it in OP, but i completed only HQs and troops for now).
Well the solution to Jormungandr and advancing is that by agressively deep striking a huge chunk of your army, including some high priority threats, you take some of the heat off the further away stuff. You can also pick and choose which units need to close fast, and which can take their time a little because of the tunnelling units holding the enemy up (probably those with a natively high move rate).
Then they can just shoot your far away stuff and mop up in assault what you were so kind to deliver to them... oh that's right, they still think that assault units in shooting lists are useless.
changemod wrote: Well the solution to Jormungandr and advancing is that by agressively deep striking a huge chunk of your army, including some high priority threats, you take some of the heat off the further away stuff. You can also pick and choose which units need to close fast, and which can take their time a little because of the tunnelling units holding the enemy up (probably those with a natively high move rate).
What are you leaving on the ground? I guess HG and TFex work. Carnies will want to advance turn 1, but going second is the concern, so Jorm does help in that case. What are the high priority tunnellers? A unit of Devilgants obviously. But what else? Flyrants seem much more important to me, what am I overlooking?
changemod wrote: I wouldn't bother with a Flyrant in Jormungandr frankly. They're hardly a must take unit like in 7th.
Walkrant with a heavy venom cannon and deathspitters! Rock that 2+!
No! That looks way too silly!
I dunno, as much as I'm not much of an advocate for wasting a perfectly good combat monster with pure gun setups, you could definitely get a good gunslinger pose going with Carnifex deathspitters in the upper arm slots. Aim for a kinda cowboy tyrant look.
As I see it, id bet money tourney lists for GTs and such will be a Kronos firebase with them as the HQ to also hurt psykers and then Jorm for the flexibility, turn 1 gaunt alpha strike to eat screening units and put charge pressure on. Seems like the best combo, despite it being a mix of two fleets.
I don't think hive tyrants benefit much from Jorm, because they'll still probably be falling back on their invulnerable saves against the kinds of things that are shot at them.
It's the guys without invulnerables who'll benefit, some of them by quite a lot I think. It's very hard to get cover for big units and monsters, but lots of guns will be resisted by having it.
Also, Jorm and Kraken right now are seen as the best fleets because they have good match ups against gunlines, not because the other fleets are not as good. If the game were more assault centered, then Gorgon would be the best fleet.
That said, nothing forbids that after 2 or 3 more codices like ours (Orks and Khorne for example) the game will not become assault centered.
I completely disagree. Again, movement is our strongest attribute. I've faced assault based lists, and being able to control who is charging what, where, and when is farrrrr stronger than a less than 16% increase in successful wounds.
Assault meta makes kraken stronger, because then you will be almost impossible to lock down.
Jorm is still better than gorgon because it gives you deployment flexibility.
And the way game mechanics work, 40k will always be a shooting game.
str00dles1 wrote: As I see it, id bet money tourney lists for GTs and such will be a Kronos firebase with them as the HQ to also hurt psykers and then Jorm for the flexibility, turn 1 gaunt alpha strike to eat screening units and put charge pressure on. Seems like the best combo, despite it being a mix of two fleets.
That's the way my tourney list is leaning certainly. 1 Spearhead of Kronos with the Warlord and a bunch of biovores and Hiveguard, a Jorm brigade with Rippers, spore mines and similar trash to start on the table, gants, pyrovores, Neurotropes (4 of those) and such for damage dealing on the drop. 2 Raveners units as taxis, then rounded out with a Supreme Command for more flyrants and something... can't remember the 3rd HQ I took. 14 CP to run all my strats. Nice overall force.
Voidwraith wrote: Ranking Hive fleets is folly. You can do it if you say "take THIS particular list, apply the hive fleet adaptations to it, and then rank them", but if you're saying one hive fleet is ALWAYS better than another, you're setting yourself up.
The Hive Fleets are good/bad based on how you build your list(s) in concert with the adaptations, strats, relics, etc. That is all...
I think this is how to "rank" them, by use: Gunline? Kronos, or Jormondgandr, Fast rush? Kraken, Deep Strike? Jormondgandr, or Behemoth...etc the right tool, for the right job....
Ive got a 4 day weekend coming up with the holiday here in the states. I intend to have the first post descriptions and some more notes all done by the end of it. Just a FYI for the community.
@Lance845: I havn't checked the OP in a while. But yeah, I really like the idea of rating units per hive fleet.
@TraceofToxin: Agree that Kraken is best, and will probably stay there even if the meta shifts. One reason. Movement is key, and that fleet is certainly the fastest.
Jormagundr HFA very nature goes against advancing and charging, as you lose your cover bonus. We have already established that speed and movement is key. If Kraken is great because of speed, how can Jorm be great for lack there of?
On that same note, you rank Jormungandr so high because of "tactical flexibility", which I assume you mean the DS potential, but you have to pay for that with CP just to put down a unit, when we can already DS plenty of great options. What infantry unit/combo would be worth using rather than just DS a 20x blob of GS with a Trygon or a 30x blob of hormies? The DS is best used to follow up with Assault and lock people into combat. Hordes do this best, which means troops, so you can wrap around and keep them from falling back.
I get it, the Raverner taxi certainly has some uses with "unlocking" Infantry rather than just troops, but we can already DS with Trygon/lictor taxis or genestealer nodes, or fliers, or put something in a pod, etc...
Having another unit grant the DS just doesn't seem that much more valuable , especially when I have to spend a CP for it, and when I land I don't get to move. If I try and charge off the DS and Fail, I lose my cover save, I have spent a CP, and am stuck there.
If i were to run this, it would be to take GS with Extended Carapace and walk them up the board, supported by a gunline of HG, Tyrannofex, Exocrines. The issue here is, we are now resorting to Tyranid gunline builds, which unfortunately, is not our strength.
If you field a gunline army with this list and end up facing guard conscript spam, they will blow you away.
Jormungandr is decent but you also lose the cover bonus when charging (succeed or fail), in addition to advancing.
Anything that ignores cover effectively removes your adaptation completely.
Saves in this game are mainly good against small arms fire. If something has -2 or better, getting a cover save can help, but it's not exactly reliable. For instance, you're going to contend with Eldar, and as an example they can easily have -4 and -5 guns. So your jorm T8 gets a 6+ where it wouldn't before because of Jorm.
If you had to write down the best 3-5 units in our codex, what would they be?
I don't know exactly what the order would be for you, but i can imagine that Hive Tyrants (flying) and Gene Stealers (advancing, charging) would be in there. Easily two of our top 5, possibly the best 2, cannot benefit from Jormungandr.
What's nice about Jormungandr is that it allows you to turn your command points into actual points. In most cases fielding a trygon is just going to cost you 170 or so points to watch it drop in, fail a charge, and be shot off of the table next turn. Paying CP to drop a trygon is not a terrible trade.
I'm looking at Leviathon personally, with a thick Warrior core, lead by a Prime warlord (what?!) with maybe 1-2 more, topped off with Neurothropes for the rest of the command level.
No Monstrous creatures at all, or possibly only those under 10 wounds, to prevent wound decay.
The idea is to grind forward under the cover of Venomthropes, using god shooting that increases as you draw near, with some melee punches that can reach out when needed (Hormagaunts, GO!) and just out-tough the other guy. A blanket -1 to-hit, sticking in cover for +1 armor, topped with a 6+ FNP, they just aren't gonna fall over from normal counterattacks, letting the fight grind more and more my way over time.
At least, that's the theory.
Wish there was a good Relic for a non-Tyrant tho. Nothing really jumps up for a Prime. (Oh look! I can do 2 wounds instead of 1 on a 6+ wounding roll! How ... lovely?)
There was a pretty big debate about whether you actually loose the jorm bonus if you fail your charge. It got nowhere.
That being said, the Jorm bonus isn't 1 effect always in effect, it's 2 effects that compliment each other.
Jorm is best used with a mix of shooting and melee. You have a back/mid/front line shooting that keeps the bonus along with a assault line that gets where it needs to be with the stratagem. You deep strike termagant bombs and pyrovores or neurothropes (if you want some front line smite immediately). along with hormagaunts, genestealers, the raveners and so on. Yeah, your assault guys loose the cover save, but they got where they needed to be really efficiently while staying off the board before their time to shine.
Marmatag wrote: Jormungandr is decent but you also lose the cover bonus when charging (succeed or fail), in addition to advancing.
Anything that ignores cover effectively removes your adaptation completely.
Saves in this game are mainly good against small arms fire. If something has -2 or better, getting a cover save can help, but it's not exactly reliable. For instance, you're going to contend with Eldar, and as an example they can easily have -4 and -5 guns. So your jorm T8 gets a 6+ where it wouldn't before because of Jorm.
If you had to write down the best 3-5 units in our codex, what would they be?
I don't know exactly what the order would be for you, but i can imagine that Hive Tyrants (flying) and Gene Stealers (advancing, charging) would be in there. Easily two of our top 5, possibly the best 2, cannot benefit from Jormungandr.
What's nice about Jormungandr is that it allows you to turn your command points into actual points. In most cases fielding a trygon is just going to cost you 170 or so points to watch it drop in, fail a charge, and be shot off of the table next turn. Paying CP to drop a trygon is not a terrible trade.
Best 5 for me are
HT Genestealers
Fex's
Hive guard
Biovores
You can have Genestealers pop up on objectives for a 3+ save as Jormungandr as well (Infest nodes, not saying its great, but its an option) I mean there are insane about of options for Jormungandr, thats why i like that the best. I DS my Genestealers anyways (they always 1st to die in my Local) so a 4+ armor is better for me, I normally take them as Behemoth but i'm thinking about as Jormungandr (Ive been playing with 2 fleets 1 battalion os Jor 1 small Elite as Behemoth).
What Marmatag said about Flyrants and GS. Though Leviathan does help Trygons absorb shooting. Trygon and 2-3 Flyrants can overload.
The problem with Jorm is still "What's on the board when the other guy goes first?". I feel like it's another fleet that requires careful tailoring, not the all-comers flexible list.
Marmatag wrote: Jormungandr is decent but you also lose the cover bonus when charging (succeed or fail), in addition to advancing.
Anything that ignores cover effectively removes your adaptation completely.
Saves in this game are mainly good against small arms fire. If something has -2 or better, getting a cover save can help, but it's not exactly reliable. For instance, you're going to contend with Eldar, and as an example they can easily have -4 and -5 guns. So your jorm T8 gets a 6+ where it wouldn't before because of Jorm.
If you had to write down the best 3-5 units in our codex, what would they be?
I don't know exactly what the order would be for you, but i can imagine that Hive Tyrants (flying) and Gene Stealers (advancing, charging) would be in there. Easily two of our top 5, possibly the best 2, cannot benefit from Jormungandr.
What's nice about Jormungandr is that it allows you to turn your command points into actual points. In most cases fielding a trygon is just going to cost you 170 or so points to watch it drop in, fail a charge, and be shot off of the table next turn. Paying CP to drop a trygon is not a terrible trade.
Best 5 for me are
HT Genestealers
Fex's
Hive guard
Biovores
You can have Genestealers pop up on objectives for a 3+ save as Jormungandr as well (Infest nodes, not saying its great, but its an option) I mean there are insane about of options for Jormungandr, thats why i like that the best. I DS my Genestealers anyways (they always 1st to die in my Local) so a 4+ armor is better for me, I normally take them as Behemoth but i'm thinking about as Jormungandr (Ive been playing with 2 fleets 1 battalion os Jor 1 small Elite as Behemoth).
wtf? that strategy is so wasteful. Are you seriously using genestealers to park on an objective? My dude, that is a bad plan.
xmbk wrote: What Marmatag said about Flyrants and GS. Though Leviathan does help Trygons absorb shooting. Trygon and 2-3 Flyrants can overload.
The problem with Jorm is still "What's on the board when the other guy goes first?". I feel like it's another fleet that requires careful tailoring, not the all-comers flexible list.
How you spend your cp in deployment changes whats on the board when the other guys first. I do think you need to build your list to plan for that flexibility but thats the key component of its flexibility. You build tac and then adjust your deployments to meet your opponents list/game type/ terrain.
Marmatag wrote: Jormungandr is decent but you also lose the cover bonus when charging (succeed or fail), in addition to advancing.
Anything that ignores cover effectively removes your adaptation completely.
Saves in this game are mainly good against small arms fire. If something has -2 or better, getting a cover save can help, but it's not exactly reliable. For instance, you're going to contend with Eldar, and as an example they can easily have -4 and -5 guns. So your jorm T8 gets a 6+ where it wouldn't before because of Jorm.
If you had to write down the best 3-5 units in our codex, what would they be?
I don't know exactly what the order would be for you, but i can imagine that Hive Tyrants (flying) and Gene Stealers (advancing, charging) would be in there. Easily two of our top 5, possibly the best 2, cannot benefit from Jormungandr.
What's nice about Jormungandr is that it allows you to turn your command points into actual points. In most cases fielding a trygon is just going to cost you 170 or so points to watch it drop in, fail a charge, and be shot off of the table next turn. Paying CP to drop a trygon is not a terrible trade.
Best 5 for me are
HT Genestealers
Fex's
Hive guard
Biovores
You can have Genestealers pop up on objectives for a 3+ save as Jormungandr as well (Infest nodes, not saying its great, but its an option) I mean there are insane about of options for Jormungandr, thats why i like that the best. I DS my Genestealers anyways (they always 1st to die in my Local) so a 4+ armor is better for me, I normally take them as Behemoth but i'm thinking about as Jormungandr (Ive been playing with 2 fleets 1 battalion os Jor 1 small Elite as Behemoth).
wtf? that strategy is so wasteful. Are you seriously using genestealers to park on an objective? My dude, that is a bad plan.
If it wins you the game its not bad... whats the problem?
I won my last game using Genestealers as a 2nd layer of Bubble wrap, i had my 5 MC's and 2 units of Hiveguard wrap with GS and Hgants (Hgants on outside) instead of charging them forward, b.c he was DSing 5 Jump Godly Melee units and he had vehicles/Heavy weapons out of charge range for 2 turns... so instead i DS some of my Heavy shootnig units and Devilgants.
B.c my Genestealers were there i won the game.
We are not talking about a vacuum, you wont fight the same list/person/army every time, sometimes you need to do something else.
And no i didnt do that, i was saying its an option, an option that if it wins you the game is a strong option.
Dynas wrote: @Lance845: I havn't checked the OP in a while. But yeah, I really like the idea of rating units per hive fleet.
@TraceofToxin: Agree that Kraken is best, and will probably stay there even if the meta shifts. One reason. Movement is key, and that fleet is certainly the fastest.
Jormagundr HFA very nature goes against advancing and charging, as you lose your cover bonus. We have already established that speed and movement is key. If Kraken is great because of speed, how can Jorm be great for lack there of?
On that same note, you rank Jormungandr so high because of "tactical flexibility", which I assume you mean the DS potential, but you have to pay for that with CP just to put down a unit, when we can already DS plenty of great options. What infantry unit/combo would be worth using rather than just DS a 20x blob of GS with a Trygon or a 30x blob of hormies? The DS is best used to follow up with Assault and lock people into combat. Hordes do this best, which means troops, so you can wrap around and keep them from falling back.
I get it, the Raverner taxi certainly has some uses with "unlocking" Infantry rather than just troops, but we can already DS with Trygon/lictor taxis or genestealer nodes, or fliers, or put something in a pod, etc...
Having another unit grant the DS just doesn't seem that much more valuable , especially when I have to spend a CP for it, and when I land I don't get to move. If I try and charge off the DS and Fail, I lose my cover save, I have spent a CP, and am stuck there.
If i were to run this, it would be to take GS with Extended Carapace and walk them up the board, supported by a gunline of HG, Tyrannofex, Exocrines. The issue here is, we are now resorting to Tyranid gunline builds, which unfortunately, is not our strength.
If you field a gunline army with this list and end up facing guard conscript spam, they will blow you away.
That's why you do the 30 devilgaunt spam with DS. 180 shots, needing 4s then 3s witth reroll 1s to wound is you auto remove 2 units of conscripts super easily.
xmbk wrote: What Marmatag said about Flyrants and GS. Though Leviathan does help Trygons absorb shooting. Trygon and 2-3 Flyrants can overload.
The problem with Jorm is still "What's on the board when the other guy goes first?". I feel like it's another fleet that requires careful tailoring, not the all-comers flexible list.
How you spend your cp in deployment changes whats on the board when the other guys first. I do think you need to build your list to plan for that flexibility but thats the key component of its flexibility. You build tac and then adjust your deployments to meet your opponents list/game type/ terrain.
This is very true. I like to look at multiple units and build strike forces. Ie B Broodlord + lictor+Genestealers, there job is to hunt characters. Maximize chance to get feeder tendrils and free CP. Kill the character, activate feeder tendrils, get CP, activate overrun, if you reach another unit activate the fight again stratagem.
xmbk wrote: What Marmatag said about Flyrants and GS. Though Leviathan does help Trygons absorb shooting. Trygon and 2-3 Flyrants can overload.
The problem with Jorm is still "What's on the board when the other guy goes first?". I feel like it's another fleet that requires careful tailoring, not the all-comers flexible list.
How you spend your cp in deployment changes whats on the board when the other guys first. I do think you need to build your list to plan for that flexibility but thats the key component of its flexibility. You build tac and then adjust your deployments to meet your opponents list/game type/ terrain.
This is very true. I like to look at multiple units and build strike forces. Ie B Broodlord + lictor+Genestealers, there job is to hunt characters. Maximize chance to get feeder tendrils and free CP. Kill the character, activate feeder tendrils, get CP, activate overrun, if you reach another unit activate the fight again stratagem.
Just remember you can't attack what you didn't charge. You can pile in in order to force them to fall back but you can't attack units that you didn't declare as charge targets.
My deployment consisted of the 20 gants outlining the deployment zone of my base, with my Hiveguard, swarmlord, and a unit of stealers in the corner. Broodlord and unit of stealers to their right. Neurothrope deployed fairly far forward behind LOS behind termas as well. Everything else in reserves.
He stuck morty very far forward, 3 units of noise marines in the back on his objective, everything else in reserves.
He took first turn, dropped one unit of oblits on the right side, outside screen, and advanced some of the noise marines up. His intention was to warptime morty up and wipe a unit of stealers, but kronos such that down. His shooting took the whole unit of 20 terms, and a few genestealers. Morty then managed to fly over terrain and barely get into combat with my neurothrope who obviously died.
My turn, i use krak strat to move 20" towards noise marines, despite being in the back of my deployment they are now about a 5" charge away. Genestealers get right on top of oblits on right side. Trygon, HT, and gants come up on my left, his back field, going after noise marines. Swarmlord and broodlord go for morty. A couple of smites, and double shooting the HG take morty to 12 wounds(srsly holy gak this guy is hard to kill). Backfield shooting was not that great as the 2+ in cover made a lot of saves from HT and devgants. Swarmlord and broodlord go in, genestealers all go in. Swarmy swings first, knocks morty down to 8. He interrupts, swings, finishes BL but puts no wounds on Swarmy. I then swing both units of stealers, wiping unit of noise marines, and leaving 1 oblit with 1 wound left. I use adrenal surge, fight with swarmlord again, knock morty down to 4.
His turn, he brings in 2 more units of oblits and Abbadon. Shooting all 6 oblits kills 5 HG, he rolled 1 for damage. His shooting kills a whole lot of gants and stealers in the back field despite only having like 15 marines left.
Combat, swarmlord takes 3 damage, and swings back, but Morty lives with 1 wound >.> Oblit gets finished off.
I move out of combat with morty, go after oblits that are right next to him. Stealers come back after killing oblit unit to help swarmlord. Smite finishes morty. Trygon and HT lay a lot pressure into his backfield. Genestealers charge into oblits, take a few wounds. Swarmlord also goes in, abbadon rerolls kick in and he takes a few wounds. He swings all in to abbadon, and leaves him with 1 wound >.>. Abby swings back but then does no damage cause 3++ is OP. Genestealers kill 2 oblits.
His turn 3 he goes all into swarmlord but swarmy lives with 1 wound to my turn.
I finish off abby, and get the charges into the back field noise marines with trygon and friends(although all his gant friends had died by then).
He concedes having 3 oblits, and 8 noise marines left on the field by the end. 20-12 victory for bugs.
Overall I think the biggest mistake I made was allowing those oblits and abbadon to deploy advantageously. I should've been able to prevent that kind movement with my rippers, but i left a large enough gap in my area denial right on my table edge. Kraken and Kronos are fantastic. So much mobilty, and a lot of great stuff.
Wondering if gargolyes might be strongly worth it. Unit of around 20 might be fantastic for moving shooting and assaulting all over the place.
Ok. I have been redoing my Jorm list a bit. 2k points limit
Battalion
HQ Neurothrope Prime - Deathspitter ScyTal
Troop Hormagaunts x 30 - Adrenal Glanda Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3 Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3
Elites Hiveguard x 3 Impalers Hiveguard x 3 Impalers Red Terror
Fast Attack Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters
I am considering getting rid of the supreme command and taking a Vanguard and Outrider. by turning the 2 units of 4 Ravs into 3 units of 3. I would grab another Neurothrope at that point to put a another <10 w character on the table and balance out the deep strike and deployment. Just a thought.
I am totally up for any suggestions on how to fill it out or what to change to refine the list and optimize it. What do you guys think? I am also really considering dropping the sporecyste just to free up the 100ish points. Maybe add a batch of genestealers to the mix...
It's a lot deathspitters. Just... so many deathspitters. Hormagaunts to tie up their line and Raveners/Red Terror to provide some heavier hitting melee with their rending claws. I intend to put Hive Guard behind or into LoS blocking terrain, and sticking 2 neurothrops in front of a malanthrope giving me a -1 to hit 3++ character as the only valid target AFTER they get through the sporecyst.
Impalers and Venomcannons are my antitank. I think all those guns are enough heh.
Dynas wrote: [...]
On that same note, you rank Jormungandr so high because of "tactical flexibility", which I assume you mean the DS potential, but you have to pay for that with CP just to put down a unit, when we can already DS plenty of great options. What infantry unit/combo would be worth using rather than just DS a 20x blob of GS with a Trygon or a 30x blob of hormies? The DS is best used to follow up with Assault and lock people into combat. Hordes do this best, which means troops, so you can wrap around and keep them from falling back.
I get it, the Raverner taxi certainly has some uses with "unlocking" Infantry rather than just troops, but we can already DS with Trygon/lictor taxis or genestealer nodes, or fliers, or put something in a pod, etc...
Having another unit grant the DS just doesn't seem that much more valuable , especially when I have to spend a CP for it, and when I land I don't get to move. If I try and charge off the DS and Fail, I lose my cover save, I have spent a CP, and am stuck there.
If i were to run this, it would be to take GS with Extended Carapace and walk them up the board, supported by a gunline of HG, Tyrannofex, Exocrines. The issue here is, we are now resorting to Tyranid gunline builds, which unfortunately, is not our strength.
If you field a gunline army with this list and end up facing guard conscript spam, they will blow you away.
The advantage of Jormungandr is not the abilty to bring some stuff close via deepstrike mechanics, its the power to put infantry models in reserve, which could normaly not go into reserves and bring them with any tunneler unit (ravener, mawloc, trygon, trygon prime) on the board. Instead of 1 unit of troops, you now can drop more than one unit of infantry on one spot.
For example having a trygon take a group of Jormungandr warriors and a Jormungandr Warrior Prime with him. Or one to x neurothropes for smite.This can be quite a big deal for some armys. It is the option to do so, which makes it worth the try.
I saw one batrep where one trygon brought devilgaunts, warriors and a prime in one go, having a very nasty blob of malice anywhere. normaly you would have to invest in 2 more trygons/Tyrannocyte to bring this, and he 'only' invested 2 cp.
(Don't ask me how he fit them there, but it somehow worked)
You can also combine it with mawlocs, who can deploy wherever they want. only restriction is to stay 9" away with the taxied infantry, or with Raveners, who are cheaper than the trygon and with the larger footprint can bring more stuff with them.
I think Jormungandr is not that bad, it is just not easy play, easy win. you just have to think a little more.
Lance845 wrote: Ok. I have been redoing my Jorm list a bit. 2k points limit
Spoiler:
Battalion
HQ Neurothrope
Prime - Deathspitter ScyTal
Troop
Hormagaunts x 30 - Adrenal Glanda
Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3
Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3
Elites
Hiveguard x 3 Impalers
Hiveguard x 3 Impalers
Red Terror
Fast Attack
Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters
Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters
I am considering getting rid of the supreme command and taking a Vanguard and Outrider. by turning the 2 units of 4 Ravs into 3 units of 3. I would grab another Neurothrope at that point to put a another <10 w character on the table and balance out the deep strike and deployment. Just a thought.
I am totally up for any suggestions on how to fill it out or what to change to refine the list and optimize it. What do you guys think? I am also really considering dropping the sporecyste just to free up the 100ish points. Maybe add a batch of genestealers to the mix...
It's a lot deathspitters. Just... so many deathspitters. Hormagaunts to tie up their line and Raveners/Red Terror to provide some heavier hitting melee with their rending claws. I intend to put Hive Guard behind or into LoS blocking terrain, and sticking 2 neurothrops in front of a malanthrope giving me a -1 to hit 3++ character as the only valid target AFTER they get through the sporecyst.
Impalers and Venomcannons are my antitank. I think all those guns are enough heh.
Have you tried to put your Horms, warriors and prime around the 2x4 raveners in advance? Because i doubt they will all fit.
Edit:
Nevermind. Warriors are 1,5" bases right? Then it will work out, because you can fit 2 next to each other, side by side with the raveners.
I like boneswords for the Warriors. Wouldn't swap out the sporecyst, it's toast if you go second, anyway. Won't always be able to hide the HG, I'm thinking they will be toast a lot of games, too . Flyers and DS will be your nemesis.
Olenos wrote: Hey guys quick Bat Rep for yall. ITC Mission 6. Deployment was the 9 inch radius center bubble and two corner deployments. I forget the number.
His List Chaos
Vanguard (renegades):
Sorc with force sword warp time prescience
3x10 noise bois with blasters.
Black Legion Spear head
1xAbbadabbadoo
3x3 Oblits
LOW detachment: Mortarion
My list
Kraken
Swarmlord Onslaught, catalyst
HT 4x devs, wings, catalyst, the horro
19x stealers
18x stealers
27xx devgants in trygon
1 x trygon
My deployment consisted of the 20 gants outlining the deployment zone of my base, with my Hiveguard, swarmlord, and a unit of stealers in the corner. Broodlord and unit of stealers to their right. Neurothrope deployed fairly far forward behind LOS behind termas as well. Everything else in reserves.
He stuck morty very far forward, 3 units of noise marines in the back on his objective, everything else in reserves.
He took first turn, dropped one unit of oblits on the right side, outside screen, and advanced some of the noise marines up. His intention was to warptime morty up and wipe a unit of stealers, but kronos such that down. His shooting took the whole unit of 20 terms, and a few genestealers. Morty then managed to fly over terrain and barely get into combat with my neurothrope who obviously died.
My turn, i use krak strat to move 20" towards noise marines, despite being in the back of my deployment they are now about a 5" charge away. Genestealers get right on top of oblits on right side. Trygon, HT, and gants come up on my left, his back field, going after noise marines. Swarmlord and broodlord go for morty. A couple of smites, and double shooting the HG take morty to 12 wounds(srsly holy gak this guy is hard to kill). Backfield shooting was not that great as the 2+ in cover made a lot of saves from HT and devgants.
Swarmlord and broodlord go in, genestealers all go in. Swarmy swings first, knocks morty down to 8. He interrupts, swings, finishes BL but puts no wounds on Swarmy. I then swing both units of stealers, wiping unit of noise marines, and leaving 1 oblit with 1 wound left. I use adrenal surge, fight with swarmlord again, knock morty down to 4.
His turn, he brings in 2 more units of oblits and Abbadon. Shooting all 6 oblits kills 5 HG, he rolled 1 for damage. His shooting kills a whole lot of gants and stealers in the back field despite only having like 15 marines left.
Combat, swarmlord takes 3 damage, and swings back, but Morty lives with 1 wound >.> Oblit gets finished off.
I move out of combat with morty, go after oblits that are right next to him. Stealers come back after killing oblit unit to help swarmlord. Smite finishes morty. Trygon and HT lay a lot pressure into his backfield. Genestealers charge into oblits, take a few wounds. Swarmlord also goes in, abbadon rerolls kick in and he takes a few wounds. He swings all in to abbadon, and leaves him with 1 wound >.>. Abby swings back but then does no damage cause 3++ is OP. Genestealers kill 2 oblits.
His turn 3 he goes all into swarmlord but swarmy lives with 1 wound to my turn.
I finish off abby, and get the charges into the back field noise marines with trygon and friends(although all his gant friends had died by then).
He concedes having 3 oblits, and 8 noise marines left on the field by the end. 20-12 victory for bugs.
Overall I think the biggest mistake I made was allowing those oblits and abbadon to deploy advantageously. I should've been able to prevent that kind movement with my rippers, but i left a large enough gap in my area denial right on my table edge. Kraken and Kronos are fantastic. So much mobilty, and a lot of great stuff.
Wondering if gargolyes might be strongly worth it. Unit of around 20 might be fantastic for moving shooting and assaulting all over the place.
Anway thanks for reading.
Thanks for the report and grats on the win. How did you find the mixed batallions? I ran Kraken/Kronos a few games and found that it was easier to just run a single adaptation.
Olenos wrote: Hey guys quick Bat Rep for yall. ITC Mission 6. Deployment was the 9 inch radius center bubble and two corner deployments. I forget the number.
His List Chaos
Vanguard (renegades):
Sorc with force sword warp time prescience
3x10 noise bois with blasters.
Black Legion Spear head
1xAbbadabbadoo
3x3 Oblits
LOW detachment: Mortarion
My list
Kraken
Swarmlord Onslaught, catalyst
HT 4x devs, wings, catalyst, the horro
19x stealers
18x stealers
27xx devgants in trygon
1 x trygon
My deployment consisted of the 20 gants outlining the deployment zone of my base, with my Hiveguard, swarmlord, and a unit of stealers in the corner. Broodlord and unit of stealers to their right. Neurothrope deployed fairly far forward behind LOS behind termas as well. Everything else in reserves.
He stuck morty very far forward, 3 units of noise marines in the back on his objective, everything else in reserves.
He took first turn, dropped one unit of oblits on the right side, outside screen, and advanced some of the noise marines up. His intention was to warptime morty up and wipe a unit of stealers, but kronos such that down. His shooting took the whole unit of 20 terms, and a few genestealers. Morty then managed to fly over terrain and barely get into combat with my neurothrope who obviously died.
My turn, i use krak strat to move 20" towards noise marines, despite being in the back of my deployment they are now about a 5" charge away. Genestealers get right on top of oblits on right side. Trygon, HT, and gants come up on my left, his back field, going after noise marines. Swarmlord and broodlord go for morty. A couple of smites, and double shooting the HG take morty to 12 wounds(srsly holy gak this guy is hard to kill). Backfield shooting was not that great as the 2+ in cover made a lot of saves from HT and devgants.
Swarmlord and broodlord go in, genestealers all go in. Swarmy swings first, knocks morty down to 8. He interrupts, swings, finishes BL but puts no wounds on Swarmy. I then swing both units of stealers, wiping unit of noise marines, and leaving 1 oblit with 1 wound left. I use adrenal surge, fight with swarmlord again, knock morty down to 4.
His turn, he brings in 2 more units of oblits and Abbadon. Shooting all 6 oblits kills 5 HG, he rolled 1 for damage. His shooting kills a whole lot of gants and stealers in the back field despite only having like 15 marines left.
Combat, swarmlord takes 3 damage, and swings back, but Morty lives with 1 wound >.> Oblit gets finished off.
I move out of combat with morty, go after oblits that are right next to him. Stealers come back after killing oblit unit to help swarmlord. Smite finishes morty. Trygon and HT lay a lot pressure into his backfield. Genestealers charge into oblits, take a few wounds. Swarmlord also goes in, abbadon rerolls kick in and he takes a few wounds. He swings all in to abbadon, and leaves him with 1 wound >.>. Abby swings back but then does no damage cause 3++ is OP. Genestealers kill 2 oblits.
His turn 3 he goes all into swarmlord but swarmy lives with 1 wound to my turn.
I finish off abby, and get the charges into the back field noise marines with trygon and friends(although all his gant friends had died by then).
He concedes having 3 oblits, and 8 noise marines left on the field by the end. 20-12 victory for bugs.
Overall I think the biggest mistake I made was allowing those oblits and abbadon to deploy advantageously. I should've been able to prevent that kind movement with my rippers, but i left a large enough gap in my area denial right on my table edge. Kraken and Kronos are fantastic. So much mobilty, and a lot of great stuff.
Wondering if gargolyes might be strongly worth it. Unit of around 20 might be fantastic for moving shooting and assaulting all over the place.
Anway thanks for reading.
Nice batrep. Have you considered dropping 2 guns for mrc on the tyrant, and swapping broodlord for neurothropes?
Lance845 wrote: Ok. I have been redoing my Jorm list a bit. 2k points limit
Battalion
HQ Neurothrope
Prime - Deathspitter ScyTal
Troop
Hormagaunts x 30 - Adrenal Glanda
Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3
Warriors x 9 - Scytal and Deathspitters x 6 scytal and Venom Canon x 3
Elites
Hiveguard x 3 Impalers
Hiveguard x 3 Impalers
Red Terror
Fast Attack
Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters
Ravener x 4 - Rending Claws and Deathspitters
I am considering getting rid of the supreme command and taking a Vanguard and Outrider. by turning the 2 units of 4 Ravs into 3 units of 3. I would grab another Neurothrope at that point to put a another <10 w character on the table and balance out the deep strike and deployment. Just a thought.
I am totally up for any suggestions on how to fill it out or what to change to refine the list and optimize it. What do you guys think? I am also really considering dropping the sporecyste just to free up the 100ish points. Maybe add a batch of genestealers to the mix...
It's a lot deathspitters. Just... so many deathspitters. Hormagaunts to tie up their line and Raveners/Red Terror to provide some heavier hitting melee with their rending claws. I intend to put Hive Guard behind or into LoS blocking terrain, and sticking 2 neurothrops in front of a malanthrope giving me a -1 to hit 3++ character as the only valid target AFTER they get through the sporecyst.
Impalers and Venomcannons are my antitank. I think all those guns are enough heh.
Interesting list! Nice to see Warriors getting some table time. As long as you send Warriors along, I think the Deathspitters on the Raveners will be useful.
I'd suggest looking at fitting in a Distraction Tyrannofex. a 2+ big gun Tyranno could eat up a weak Alpha. And still be useful, if it gets to shoot.
Nice batrep. Have you considered dropping 2 guns for mrc on the tyrant, and swapping broodlord for neurothropes?
I have considered that, I think against MEQ it would be better but against GEQ I would rather have more shots. I really liked having 24 shots as even against the 2+ i was killing 3 a turn. This is obviously not very ideal but it still worked out. Rending claws probably wouldve killed another few a turn each. It is in all honesty a very tough call.
As for Neurothropes for Brood lords, that is definitely a possibility, but something I am still considering. Broodlord performance over the last few games has been less than stellar. I like taking a single neuro just so I can double up on the smite and psychic scream, but I think that Neuros lose value the more you take.
As for mixing hive fleets, the hive tyrants give you huge bubbles of synapse, so my kraken list had almost no trouble with synapse. The rippers were actually out of synapse from turn 1, but they are low priority targets so it didn't end up mattering at all. I think if you are able to keep them out of range, LOS or just low priority enough, then it shouldnt matter too much.
I may drop the brood lord and go with another neuro. Use the saved points to take something else like trygon prime. Not 100% sure though as I rather like that list.
I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?
Drager wrote: I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?
Yeah I think a Jormongandr Supreme Command with a unit of Raveners could add massive Smite spam into a force...off the top of my head, I don't know if you can put Ravs into the Command...so its just an add on to a Jorm main force.
DaBraken wrote: Have you tried to put your Horms, warriors and prime around the 2x4 raveners in advance? Because i doubt they will all fit.
Edit:
Nevermind. Warriors are 1,5" bases right? Then it will work out, because you can fit 2 next to each other, side by side with the raveners.
The red terror is also a Ravener keyword. BTW. Packing the warriors in tight he can also fit a warrior blob.
Drager wrote: I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?
Drager wrote: I was just thinking about Neurothropes. 5 is 350 and, with Jormungandr can drop within 18" for nice smiting fun. That's 6d3 a turn, so about 12MW. Pretty nice. They are also pretty durable with W5 and the ability to heal a whole bunch back each turn on whichever ones are wounded, 1 wound healed per kill, so I would expect that your injured thrope will be back to full health every turn. Also once whatever screening units you have brought are dead they can cycle round so different guys are at the front. Any thoughts?
Its 5 cp to spend...
Beeing in cover behind the raveners as characters should be okay, but can be a fast end to them as well...
can work if the army is build to support this playstyle. This bomb should not been thrown unsupported into the enemy lines.
Niiai wrote: Maguses with a lictor can do this as well.
Its still 5 cp AND a lictor which has to survive. In my meta it doesnt matter what i put into reserves, if there is a Lictor, hes dead if in line of sight. Donst ask me why my opponents hate them that much, but what do YOU do if your lictor is killed? Ambush the Magi as usual and hope for good results?
As it is written now you can place the lictor the same turn as you use the stratagem.
It is unclear weather this is the intension, or wether it is the intension for cult units to ride the lictor. Ride the lictor sounds like a good 80's cover come to think of it.
I am not saying it is good, and Neuron are usually better then magus. But if you consider doing it you don't need Jorm. Doing this turn 2 or 3 after kraken genestealers reach the opponent could be quite fun.
...I was about to reply to @DaBraken that you can just bring on your Lictor *at the end of your movement phase* and immediately afterwards your (for instance) Zoanthrope unit that was in Reserves.
BUT now I can’t find where the BRB says that, in Matched play, the ‘roll a 3+ to bring on Reserves’ rule from where the Reserves rule is first described is ignored.
This edition’s rulebook is a headache. We don’t have simplified core rules, we have core rules that are front-loaded for a demo game and then everything else is scattered around with no map.
This list is kinda weak. Without a malanthrope defending your warriors or raveners to stick some in deep strike its almost doomed to fail againgst gunlines and vehicle heavy lists.
Eihnlazer wrote: This list is kinda weak. Without a malanthrope defending your warriors or raveners to stick some in deep strike its almost doomed to fail againgst gunlines and vehicle heavy lists.
It'll work againgst all infantry lists though.
Haha. It's not intended to be hypercompetetive, it's intended to be the first collection of things I paint, and have a strong theme. Once I've got all those models complete I'll expand out depending on models i want and what I feel will help out in my local meta.
Genestealers are in the pipe after I finish the Warriors, then something more appropriate for Jorm. Raveners, Trygons, or maybe just Tyrannocytes because I like the model. We'll see.
3 squads of zoans and 2 nuero's in the tunnels below. Ravenors and The Red Terror bring them in so i can blow the psychich blast strat on them my first turn. Really mess's up characters and vehicles. Ravenors shoot up infantry, Biovores move a squidge to try to spawn spores on purpouse to mess up movement and prevent a countercharge. Malanthrope and other neuros advance and hang with the heirodule in the homefield.
Seems like alot of fun. Sure i end up spending 8 CP first turn i go, but i had 13 to start with and do alot of dmg.
lindsay40k wrote: Your initial collection is sixty-five Warriors?!? That is some hella dedication to a theme!
And kinda samey, in that context?
Looks like, whilst certainly deathspitters and boneswords are the clear efficient choice, the force is going to look very homogenous as a result.
It's all the old Warriors from 20+ years ago. Shameless plug: see my sig.
Long story short, I wanted an army where the basic troops were bigger than Primaris marines. The old Warriors are taller than the new ones, too.
WHOA. So you’re the reason I can’t find any to expand my three Hive Guard I built from my old ‘90s Warriors
I nabbed a bunch early-mid summer, but I'm good for now. I still check ebay out of curiosity though, and there's 15 or so up at the moment if you're interested. Including a group of nine, though if you look closely I think they're missing some of the secondary claws.
How many wounds does an Exocrine / Tyranofex do to a big thing? How about the humble Biovore? Now that the codex is out proper I think this is worth investigating.
Tfex vs. Standard Big Thing (SBT) = 6 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.67x3.5 = approx 6 damage. All for 238pts That's 6.3 biovores (Granted, the Tfex damage can be extremely swingy)
Exocrine vs SBT (T7) = 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 6.7 damage. All for 6 Biovores.
6 Biovores. Or 3 MW (I think the math means the roll of the 1 = 0MW cancels out the roll of a 6 = d3 MW) and 3 placed mines which is 3 future potential MW. (Okay yes I know technically 1 in 6 will fail to wound, but I'm effectively ignoring the 1vs6 result, which does artifically inflate the placed mines figure, I acknowledge)
Apply Single Mind Annihilation (which will sadly only cover 1 of the 2 3-strong Biovore squads) and you're looking at 4.5 MW and 4.5 placed mines. For any non-fly mode, 5 or 6 placed mines means that unit is now going nowhere in the movement phase. Even 3 would make it difficult to move. Also these are MW so ignore all invulnerable saves or saves improved by cover etc (+1 cover save reduces a Tfex to 4.5 damage).
Approx double the wounds in Biovores compared to the other big MC, no degrading profile (but you can loose models), great range, no LOS needed. Granted the MC's wreck smaller vehicles and weaker targets more handily, the Biovore damage is static. Dealing with SBT's is the issue here.
So the range is excellent and what sets is apart from smite/scream, which is the direct comparison (72pts = 2 biovores, 1MW average or 1 Neuronthrope smite slinger). We've established above per point they compete with the 'heavy guns' vs SBT's. So How many is useful.. 12, maybe too much. 6? 3?
You also have the option to move them to increase the odds for spore placement to help with zoning (Also firing outside Synapse but that will be tricky to pull off and be useful). It is not bulletproof, you can very easily shoot off the mines but it does require it or slow/deny/change movement.
Also a quick check tells me they also compete with hive guard, point for point (against SBT'S at least), however it seems Hive Guard (even at small 3-strong) make better use of Single Minded Annhilation, so will wreck face with a full squad (i.e. on that basis, 6 HG are the 'best', but also a chunky bullet magnet).
Is it too much to hope that they fix a few of our codex points costs with chapter approved?
Zoenthropes are point for point inferior to Neurothropes, and Maleceptors are basically worse Hive Tyrants. Our Fliers seem too expensive for their abilities, and the Tervigon is laughably expensive for what it can do. Venomthropes need something as well. Either a points drop or a strategem/rule that makes them untargetable for a turn. I'm still iffy on the Haurospex, Toxicrine, and Trygons, though they are probably in a better place than the other units I've already mentioned.
lindsay40k wrote: BUT now I can’t find where the BRB says that, in Matched play, the ‘roll a 3+ to bring on Reserves’ rule from where the Reserves rule is first described is ignored.
The rule you are thinking of is only for certain Narrative missions, wherein a portion of the army is set up off table. In the core rules the ability to set up off table is referred to as "Reinforcements" and is restricted to units with special deployment rules only.
tag8833 wrote: Is it too much to hope that they fix a few of our codex points costs with chapter approved?
Zoenthropes are point for point inferior to Neurothropes, and Maleceptors are basically worse Hive Tyrants. Our Fliers seem too expensive for their abilities, and the Tervigon is laughably expensive for what it can do. Venomthropes need something as well. Either a points drop or a strategem/rule that makes them untargetable for a turn. I'm still iffy on the Haurospex, Toxicrine, and Trygons, though they are probably in a better place than the other units I've already mentioned.
Agree on all fronts, but it would be exceedingly premature to release a points adjustment 2 weeks after the original codex drops. I’m sure there will be an FAQ soon, as well as errata with points value adjustments if need be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Posted a bat rep that you guys might be interested in (was actually 2 games but the first one was over so fast that it was really more like 1.5 games)
TLDR: Nids are great and can beat competitive IG. I am very happy because we could not do this in the index. I am pretty certain that I won’t ever leave Home without Kraken (and not just because I can yell “RELEASE THE KRAKEN!”)
Jormungdr Devilgants. Yes please
Kraken’s mobility is unprecedented, and that is a big deal in this meta.
I can’t seem to find points for a Kronos firebase, but my list is pretty single-minded. GET IT?!
I really really want to try out the Acid Spray Tfex. Someone please convince me to do so.
Don’t leave Home without 10+ CP. our stratagems are just way too good.
I think Swarmlord is critical in a lot of matchups, even if he's super expensive. One thing I really like is that his ability is in the shooting phase. I've had situations where I advanced hormagaunts to get a better charge range, but failed onslaught and couldn't even try the longer charge. Swarmlord will always know what has onslaught before he procs his ability, so if you were considering double moving him, you are never risking it.
My biggest issue is that going full reserves like this is very risky if you face an army with a lot more screening units, particularly those that can push you back, like rangers or scouts. Using dev gants and neurothropes to clear enough space for the GS + Swarmlord will definitely work often, but I'm not convinced it will be reliable enough for every game. I also dislike being forced to bring both stealer units in offset, but Trygons are expensive and not particularly durable, and swarmlord affords you the ability to ensure they get where they need to go (as long as he's alive).
On the other hand, I don't think there is a list we can build that is going to be able to win every single game, every single time.
Whether it's a swarmlord+GS combo, or 150+ body overload, I do think we have a very competitive army that can absolutely win against the vast majority of matchups. I think there are multiple styles of play that will allow us to do so. Even a tyranid swarm/shooty army can be competitive, I think, taking advantage of our board control and ability to overwhelm opponents.
I also think that we need at least 9 CP, and getting a brigade is borderline mandatory. Running 2 battalions I am almost always out of CP by the end of my 2, going in to 3 with maybe 1-2 CP left, and there were situations I could have gotten a lot more work done with an adrenaline rush or double tap. It's just sometimes hard to find the points to make it all fit. We have SO MANY good units, and so many units that need to be taken together in specific fleets... it all gets very difficult to make work.
But I digress, I'm glad to see a swarmlord build looking good. The more versatility in builds we have, the less likely we are to get pushed out of the meta.
I agree that the challenge of synergizing units and fleets is a huge appeal to Nids right now. Like you said, there is no autowin button, which is good. But there seem to be several highly competitive builds, which is great.
I'm curious what you guys think about the new Swarmlord rules. I've got a few locals that love swarmlord. Like unreasoning, unthinking head over heels love. And I've played against them a bunch, and am fairly certain I have never seen a swarmlord make it's points or live past turn 2. None of my armies (Orks, Inquisition, Blood Angels) were even remotely challenged to kill him. All of those games were pre-codex, so I might be overly discounting the codex buffs.
My read on Swarmlord is:
- He is really expensive (He is usually going to be your most expensive unit).
- He has survivability problems. Either too many or too few wounds. If he had 9 wounds he would be outstanding. If he had 18, he would be really good.
- He doesn't hit as hard as he should. He can't knock a knight down a level. He cant handle other armies beatstick characters like Rowboat or Magnus, and he is even statistically is iffy on killing a rhino in one go.
I think of him on the scale of other 300+ point characters. Rowboat is more durable (thanks to 9 wounds) and way more killy in close combat. Magnus is the same, and also alot more mobile. Mortarian is much the same.
If we compare him to 200+ characters like Ghazgkul (More Durable, similar CC ability). or Be'lakor (More Durable, better CC ability) or Cawl (More Durable, worse CC ability) or Celestein w/ Gemini (Way more durable, a little less CC ability) or Dante (More durable, a little less CC ability) he seems much more in line, though still a standout for a lack of durability.
Overall he just seems like a significantly overcosted choice depending on your valuation of his Hive commander ability. And if you value that highly you are going to gamble on his ability to make use of it.
I've seen Luke's batrep, and watched a few other where swarmy rolled really hot, and or was a command point hog which allowed him to deliver, but I've also seen a few where he gets punked early closer to my own experience..
I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.
I think Swarmlord is critical in a lot of matchups, even if he's super expensive. One thing I really like is that his ability is in the shooting phase. I've had situations where I advanced hormagaunts to get a better charge range, but failed onslaught and couldn't even try the longer charge. Swarmlord will always know what has onslaught before he procs his ability, so if you were considering double moving him, you are never risking it.
My biggest issue is that going full reserves like this is very risky if you face an army with a lot more screening units, particularly those that can push you back, like rangers or scouts. Using dev gants and neurothropes to clear enough space for the GS + Swarmlord will definitely work often, but I'm not convinced it will be reliable enough for every game. I also dislike being forced to bring both stealer units in offset, but Trygons are expensive and not particularly durable, and swarmlord affords you the ability to ensure they get where they need to go (as long as he's alive).
On the other hand, I don't think there is a list we can build that is going to be able to win every single game, every single time.
Whether it's a swarmlord+GS combo, or 150+ body overload, I do think we have a very competitive army that can absolutely win against the vast majority of matchups. I think there are multiple styles of play that will allow us to do so. Even a tyranid swarm/shooty army can be competitive, I think, taking advantage of our board control and ability to overwhelm opponents.
I also think that we need at least 9 CP, and getting a brigade is borderline mandatory. Running 2 battalions I am almost always out of CP by the end of my 2, going in to 3 with maybe 1-2 CP left, and there were situations I could have gotten a lot more work done with an adrenaline rush or double tap. It's just sometimes hard to find the points to make it all fit. We have SO MANY good units, and so many units that need to be taken together in specific fleets... it all gets very difficult to make work.
But I digress, I'm glad to see a swarmlord build looking good. The more versatility in builds we have, the less likely we are to get pushed out of the meta.
Agree with a lot of this. I run double battalions and get 9cp and burn through them by turn 3 normally. I have found the lictor phermone trails with Genestealers to character hunt is a good way to get extra CP off the Feeder tendrils. I did this got 3 CP, then did overrun and fight again stratagems. The CP are definitely valuable foir sure!
Swarmy is good, due to his HIve commander ability, he does seem a bit expensive, and or I wish he was 9 wounds, or pumped up to 15+, or points drop. But time will tell.
xmbk wrote: I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.
He absolutely requires Tyrant Guard. And he’s almost certainly worth it all.
The thing with the Tyranids is that they’re an all-encompassing organism. The further you go towards a synergy list, the less useful ‘makes its points back’ becomes as an indicator. And Tyranids are THE synergy army, more than any other (with the possible exception of Epidemius lists). Guilliman can never once swing his dad’s sword and yet still be a lynchpin of a victory through the buffs he confers, and Swarmlord, whilst being a slightly superior melee Tyrant, is also the only thing in the entire game AFAIK that can GUARANTEE a second move, entirely on your terms, with zero CP expenditure.
He is the way you get thirty Hormagaunts to engage half a dozen gunner units. Even if they are Ultramarines, if you have a Malanthrope you’ve halved their firepower - and made overcharged Plasma unthinkable.
If you’re having a footslogging Tyrant, it’s tricky to make the case to cut that out and make it a generic unnamed one.
xmbk wrote: I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.
He is something you build a list entirely around. Luke's list revolves 100% around clearing chaff then dropping Swarm+GS in and using hive commander to ensure he gets balls deep inside his target. If swarm survives to do it again, awesome, if not, he's betting that the first GS unit should have neutered his opponent enough that he can win the game from there. Whether this will consistently perform or not depends on your meta and matchups, but I'm inclined to think it will work more often than not, with how super efficient GS are. My biggest concerns, as stated, are screen heavy armies that we can't clear fast enough. Also, armies that auspex/forewarning and neuter the GS right out the gate. Dark Reapers with guide average like 8 unsaved wounds vs GS, a little luck they could easily do 11. The aforementioned aggressors, etc. Just throwing Swarm into a list is a recipe for disaster. It's a huge investment that needs to be built to synergize.
Comparing him to other CC characters is hard. While he is only a little better than the Chapter Master chars, hive commander is an army changing ability, and he does outperform them all by a margin pretty commensurate with his cost difference. Guilleman's full rerolls and W9 make him probably the strongest single character in the game, and even going up another 25 points to just shy of 400, he's a little unfair to compare to. Straight combat stats alone, the swarmlord measures out about where he should, when you do price vs price. Mortarian... you can Swarm AND another HT, or a Trygon, for roughly the same cost, at which point a lot of who wins comes down to who charged, has CP left, etc. Magnus is pretty undercosted ATM, considering he beats most (Probably all with his +1 inv) characters in the game 1v1, and his smite gak is ridiculously strong, so that's tough to compare to. Anyways, what I'm getting at, is that Swarmlord performs about where he should for his cost. He's just kinda in a gakky spot where he doesn't roll over the low 200s and can't quite stand up to the 400s (Including Guilleman), and he's too big to hide so he ends up just being an overcosted fire magnet if you aren't podding him in to try to cripple the enemy with HC.
Overall, I think he could use a small bump to his statline, but that devolves into wishlisting, which is less than useful for us here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 145 points. That is rough, but probably fair.
I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.
Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.
Thinking the malanthrope may very well go to the shelf with this change.
The issue with venoms is still ebing targetable. Their price and effect would be fine if people wernt going to shoot them off the board.
The WHOLE reason malanthropes are so much better is being characters. Give Venoms a character-like rule like sniper drones have and they would be great.
That's how much GW values the -1 to hit.
Let's be honest, the darkshroud costs more than the NEW malanthrope and can be targeted but it still gets a lot of use. I fully expect the changeling to get a similar nerf, he sees too much play.
Venoms are one of the cheapest forms of -1 around, and also have the biggest coverage. Giving them a character rule would make them outclass all alternatives. They are fine, it's not like 90 poins are a lot, and they are a target that isn't really efficient to take down on first turn. You need long range shooting on something that is at -1 and only 10 points per wound. Not the best target for lascannons and leman russes. If you put them in cover then they will need 108 mortar shots to go down. What more do we want for 90 points?
Malanthrope at 140 was what I thought they'd be originally so not shocked. Still worth taking but doubt I'll take 2 like I was. I think it's a good change.
Space in a Tyranids list is too competitive for a 140 pt malanthrope. I know I cannot afford to lose 50 pts anywhere in my list to fit one. I'll either be using venomthropes and trying to hide them out of LoS, or just putting the 90 pts elsewhere in my army.
There was zero reason to increase their cost that much, aside from trying to encourage the use of venomthropes.
They talk both about the upcoming chapter approved as well as their long term future plans. TLDR:. Clarification faqs 2 weeks after codex release. Balancing FAQ's in March and September using the Adepticon and Nova events respectively as a final source of data for the balancing FAQ's. Their playtest team is expanding, and they are adding top tier tourney players.
Huh. Venoms could have quite justifiably been given Character-like hiding ability. Death Guard can do it with a fly cloud stratagem, and it’s the same basic principle - obstruction of vision.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oddly, Malanthropes at 140 are still way off from being commensurate with their PL of 10. That’s equivalent to like 200pts. How did they get that from 90pts before? This is like Malefic Lords originally being 30pts/4PL.
I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.
Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.
Worth noting the Eldar/SM/CSM/Admech version shuts off at < 12'' away while the spore cloud works at all ranges. I suspect it wasn't just because of Venomthropes being overshadowed but also the other "cheap" HQ character selections. The Malanthrope was basically something you would always take to fill an HQ slot due to being both cheap, durable and highly useful. While the new cost sucks, it is more in line with the Brood Lord and Tyranid Prime.
I've actually been getting some good work out of a brood of 6 Jormungandr Venomthropes the last couple games I have played. Dropping them in with deep strikers allows them to get some use out of their offensive capabilities and provides protection post-alpha strike (and if they shoot the 'thropes, they aren't shooting the 'stealers).
lindsay40k wrote: Oddly, Malanthropes at 140 are still way off from being commensurate with their PL of 10. That’s equivalent to like 200pts. How did they get that from 90pts before? This is like Malefic Lords originally being 30pts/4PL.
I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.
Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.
Worth noting the Eldar/SM/CSM/Admech version shuts off at < 12'' away while the spore cloud works at all ranges. I suspect it wasn't just because of Venomthropes being overshadowed but also the other "cheap" HQ character selections. The Malanthrope was basically something you would always take to fill an HQ slot due to being both cheap, durable and highly useful. While the new cost sucks, it is more in line with the Brood Lord and Tyranid Prime.
Both of which are overcosted as well. Judging by all of the other points changes, I'm pretty well convinced that whoever is doing 'balance' for GW doesn't have the slightest clue of how to do it.
Unless a unit is a serious efficiency offender (Malefic lords), you should not be changing it's cost by more than 10-20% in one go. If a unit is just a little bit too good for its cost (Malanthropes), you marginally increase the cost and see how much use changes. A 10-20 pt increase on malanthrope would have been understandable, but 50 pts? I don't imagine most competitive Nid lists will elect to take 1 malanthrope over 28 hormagaunts, or 12 Genestealers, or 2 neurothropes, etc. With the rise in LOS blocking terrain, you may be able to make 3 venomthropes work, but if I find they're dying to fast I'm just going to reinvest those points elsewhere. It's a super heavy-handed nerf to a model that is only auto-take because we have almost no other way to mitigate alpha striking other than going null deployment (Which will never take a malanthrope).
That's it for us. Basically everything FW got smoked for everyone.
In other news, AM took a decent hit. Big bird more than doubled (700->1500)
Primaris psykers up to 46, conscripts to 4, Taurox Prime 80 (+15) base with gatling at 20 (+2) and hotshot volley at 7 (+1). Manticores and wyverns both up +10.
SM too.
Asscan razorbacks up to 114 (+14), Guilleman 385 (+25), Stormravens 192 (+20) with hurricane bolters at 10 (+6) each.
Magnus/Morty untouched, surprisingly. Considering one or both is in basically every single chaos list out there, I'm amazed they didn't catch the nerf bat. Particularly Magnus.
Overall I think these changes help us overall, even if the malanthrope nerf was heavy-handed.
That's it for us. Basically everything FW got smoked for everyone.
In other news, AM took a decent hit. Big bird more than doubled (700->1500)
Primaris psykers up to 46, conscripts to 4, Taurox Prime 80 (+15) base with gatling at 20 (+2) and hotshot volley at 7 (+1). Manticores and wyverns both up +10.
SM too.
Asscan razorbacks up to 114 (+14), Guilleman 385 (+25), Stormravens 192 (+20) with hurricane bolters at 10 (+6) each.
Magnus/Morty untouched, surprisingly. Considering one or both is in basically every single chaos list out there, I'm amazed they didn't catch the nerf bat. Particularly Magnus.
Overall I think these changes help us overall, even if the malanthrope nerf was heavy-handed.
I’m liking my Swarmlord list more the more I play it. His force multiplication is just too good. And I’m realizing that once you clear out enough models with the Flyrant and double firing Devilgants, you should be able to either:
A) move over the corpses of the screening units
B) assault and kill what’s left of the screening unit, then overdrive + Adrenaline Surge. CP intensive, but I mathed it out and even in hammer and anvil, you’re 2” away from the board edge in the pretty much worst case scenario
C) pile such that you only swing with 1 genestealer (can 100% do this if you want) and then just lock them in combat with your consolidate. A lost treasure of 8th ed.
Eldar Rangers do suck, though
On Swarmy more generally, he needs a pod 100% and remember that the pod itself is like an annoying rhino - charge things that want to shoot and laugh afterwards.
Ok... Even newer version of my list. I think this iteration has some real potential.
Tyranids - Jormungandr 2k points exactly
-Battalion- HQ Neurothrope Neurothrope
Troops Genestealers x 20 (5 Acid Maws) Ripper Swarm x 3 Ripper Swarm x 3 Tyranid Warriors x 6 (4 ScyTal and Deathspitters / 2 Bone Swords and Venom Cannon)
-Battalion- HQ Neurothrope Neurothrope
Troops Hormagaunts x 30 w Adrenal Glands Ripper Swarm x 3 Ripper Swarm x 3 Tyranid Warriors x 9 (6 ScyTal and Deathspitters / 3 Bone Swords and Venom Cannon)
-Vanguard Detachment- HQ Tyranid Prime Scytal and Deathspitter
Elites Hive Guard x 3 Impaler Cannon Hive Guard x 3 Impaler Cannon Red Terror
Fast Attack Ravener Brood x 4 Rending Claws and Deathspitter Ravener Brood x 4 Rending Claws and Deathspitter
The ripper swarms will be deployed normally spaced around the back and front lines to prevent any deepstrikers if opponent gets the first turn. But also to eat first turn fire and prevent the Neurothropes from being targeted off the bat.
Warlord will either be a Neurothrope with Tenacious Survivor (6+ FNP) or the Prime with Jormungandr trait (him and all the warriors ignore cover).
This list will cost a lot in CP on deployment because the warriors, the prime, the hormagaunts, the genestealers all need to go into tunnels to get deepstriked with the raveners and the red terror. But I am hoping the GS will be able to regain some CP for me after the mass Deathspitters clear out any bubble wrap.
This list in a lot of ways makes a mockery of the anti tank weapons many lists need to bring by not having any big monsters to use it to full effect on. Lascannons killing warriors and ripper swarms? Seems like such a waste. Meanwhile the deathspitter warriors will make short work of most infantry on deployment while the hive guard and venom cannons cripple or destroy any vehicles. Hormagaunts to tie up shooters. Genestealers to kill. Raveners to provide some support fire and get in there with their rending claws to support. The red terror to smash and boost the ravs and eat up any low wound support characters if the genestealers end up getting whittled down.
I don't think you can deepstrike with Red Terror, the stratagem picks out specific units and not keywords (Notice the lack of capitals).
I don't really like warriors, personally, I think they pay too much of a flexibility tax. I'd rather see more Neurothropes (Since CA isn't bringing a smite nerf) and devourer gaunts, but maybe the warriors will get good mileage for you. Try it out and see how it works. My experience has been that they're decent generalist troops, but we have much better specialists available.
I think you're gonna need more than 20 stealers if you're not using swarmlord. Even with 40, by turn 3 I'm always wishing I had 60.
My only major critique besides preferences is that you have no good target for double tap. I suppose the warriors are one, but I'd like to see a big dev gaunt or hive guard squad to really abuse the hell out of the power.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I don't think you can deepstrike with Red Terror, the stratagem picks out specific units and not keywords (Notice the lack of capitals).
I don't really like warriors, personally, I think they pay too much of a flexibility tax. I'd rather see more Neurothropes (Since CA isn't bringing a smite nerf) and devourer gaunts, but maybe the warriors will get good mileage for you. Try it out and see how it works. My experience has been that they're decent generalist troops, but we have much better specialists available.
I think you're gonna need more than 20 stealers if you're not using swarmlord. Even with 40, by turn 3 I'm always wishing I had 60.
My only major critique besides preferences is that you have no good target for double tap. I suppose the warriors are one, but I'd like to see a big dev gaunt or hive guard squad to really abuse the hell out of the power.
Only if you already have the necessary neuros, if not you may want to avoid purchasing more since we now know for certain that smite will get a nerf in March.
I'm getting started with a behemoth CC army with Flyrant, Prime, old one eye, Hormas, Ripperwarms, Lictors, venomtrophes, Trygon Prime, Raveners, shrikes, screamer killers and a lot 8' charges from reserves.
Too bad there are no winged hormagaunts. :(
Anyone experience with that kind of list + behemoth adaption?
Won't use other adaptions just to get the rules and i'm trying to roll without shooting because i love the picture of a close combat tyranid army.
Easy brigade detachment even with adrenalin glands and toxin sacs for the big stuff.
Sadly that endless swarm strategem does not work without reinforcement points atm.
Anything i should add to make this work (better)?
Obvious choice would be stealers but I don't really like the models .
Traceoftoxin wrote: I don't think you can deepstrike with Red Terror, the stratagem picks out specific units and not keywords (Notice the lack of capitals).
I don't really like warriors, personally, I think they pay too much of a flexibility tax. I'd rather see more Neurothropes (Since CA isn't bringing a smite nerf) and devourer gaunts, but maybe the warriors will get good mileage for you. Try it out and see how it works. My experience has been that they're decent generalist troops, but we have much better specialists available.
I think you're gonna need more than 20 stealers if you're not using swarmlord. Even with 40, by turn 3 I'm always wishing I had 60.
My only major critique besides preferences is that you have no good target for double tap. I suppose the warriors are one, but I'd like to see a big dev gaunt or hive guard squad to really abuse the hell out of the power.
Only if you already have the necessary neuros, if not you may want to avoid purchasing more since we now know for certain that smite will get a nerf in March.
Hey guys, just a quick question I haven't seen come up yet.
I like deep striking my flyrants into the thick of things, but they get some serious attention when doing so. What do you think about bringing in some jormangandr tyrant guard with a trygon/raveners?
I believe that the nerf to smite will be in the form of its damage.
My guess is that baseline smite will deal 1 mortal wound, and that depending on the STRENGTH of the Psyker itself, it will deal more.
For instance, a 200 point Psyker like Grand Master Voldus should have a stronger smite than a 40 point Primaris Psyker. As it stands right now, Voldus is VASTLY inferior at smiting than a Primaris Psyker, while costing 160 points more. That's absolutely insane.
I think it will go:
Tier 1 - Costs less than 150 - Smite is 1 damage. Tier 2 - Costs 150-300 - Smite is up to D3 damage. (Some psykers may deal less despite this cost, such as Grey Knights Paladins, although their smite might scale with the size of the squad. For instance, 10 paladins is over 500 points they should smite better) Tier 3 - Costs 301 or more - Smite is up to D6 damage. (Think Magnus)
On the Swarmlord, I don't think he needs a pod, if you're running him other than Jormungandr, he will most likely be out of line of sight, or rapid fire range, vaulting units forward.
Ultimately my list is going to be a brigade i think. Neurothrope, Swarmlord, Flying Hive Tyrant. Possibly dropping the Swarmlord for a Tervigon. The Tervigon refilling two squads with fleshborers that chain and sit on objectives while Tervy is out of line of sight, means big points in ITC format. There's not more than 4 on the board and you should be able to reach two with these chains. So you're looking at a modest investment in points that denies deep strike and holds 2 spots.
I like the idea of 2 lictors and some hive guards, and the rest would be spores. I only need 1 trygon for devilgaunts.
50 points was way too much for malanthrope, should have only been a 25 point increase at most.
Also, barbed heirodules were already overcosted and they went up 2 points, what a load of bull.
they should have dropped them 40 points and instead went up by 2 points. Retardation.
Compare a barbed hierodule to 2 lemon russ's on the move.
Very similar, in fact, the lemon russ's are better overall for less points.
The B. Heirodule was just 2 lemon russ that always rolled a 6 for their amount of battle cannon shots and couldn't take sponson weapons. Less wounds overall, and couldn't stand still and shoot twice, but consolidated into a single model and could benefit from auras and catalyst.
2 battlecannon russ's cost only 304 points vs the heirodules 440. Complete bs.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Trygons can only taxi stuff from their own hive fleet, otherwise Jormungandr would be an auto-take for them.
ah, didn't notice that. That is unfortunate, as the stratagem doesn't seem to have such a restriction.
Yeah, you can have any fleet Trygon taxi Jorm infantry, but not the other way around. Which is really unfortunate, because Trygons would benefit A LOT from a 2+ the turn they arrive.
Each time you try to manifest the same power in the same phase you increase its difficulty by 1. (A 5+ power becomes 6+ then 7+ etc etc)
Buffs/debuffs dont stack with themselves. Now there is a soft/hard cap on spamming powers because it gets less and less likely to work and encourages more variety in powers without limiting to 1 cast a turn.
There's a million possible fixes for smite, most of which GW will forego and instead opt for the most heavy-handed answer (Most likely limit it to 3, or make it +1 per cast), or something no one asked for or expected (Smite is limited to once per turn).
Lance845 wrote: They should fix smite by fixing psychic focus.
Let all powers be cast multiple times.
Each time you try to manifest the same power in the same phase you increase its difficulty by 1. (A 5+ power becomes 6+ then 7+ etc etc)
Buffs/debuffs dont stack with themselves. Now there is a soft/hard cap on spamming powers because it gets less and less likely to work and encourages more variety in powers without limiting to 1 cast a turn.
I agree with this in principle. But, as a Chaos player - one who doesn’t even have any Primarchs or whatever - I will warn now that replacing Smite spam with Warptime spam is probably going to be more of a sledgehammer solution than any localised points hike. Magnus’s weakness is if he rushes you on the first turn, he gets shot. Not if a Berzerker horde swoops in with their up to 12” of pile ins and make damned sure you’re not going to Fall Back from the big guy. Oh, and your Overwatch? Warp Talons kill it instantly.
Lance845 wrote: They should fix smite by fixing psychic focus.
Let all powers be cast multiple times.
Each time you try to manifest the same power in the same phase you increase its difficulty by 1. (A 5+ power becomes 6+ then 7+ etc etc)
Buffs/debuffs dont stack with themselves. Now there is a soft/hard cap on spamming powers because it gets less and less likely to work and encourages more variety in powers without limiting to 1 cast a turn.
I agree with this in principle. But, as a Chaos player - one who doesn’t even have any Primarchs or whatever - I will warn now that replacing Smite spam with Warptime spam is probably going to be more of a sledgehammer solution than any localised points hike. Magnus’s weakness is if he rushes you on the first turn, he gets shot. Not if a Berzerker horde swoops in with their up to 12” of pile ins and make damned sure you’re not going to Fall Back from the big guy. Oh, and your Overwatch? Warp Talons kill it instantly.
and their Kharybdis
Warptime 1) has a VERY short range. 2) Has a WCV of 6. Easy enough. 7 on the second cast (the most common result on 2d6) 8 on the 3rd...
Again, the powers escalating difficulty to manifest makes a big difference.
3) if GW implemented this with the basic idea that NOW powers are being cast multiple times a turn instead of 1 and done they can adjust WCVs accordingly. Even if Warptime went from a WCV 6 to a 7 it would make a drastic difference in the likelyhood of it being cast 3 times a turn.
4) Each psyker can still only manifest each power once. You would need 3 psykers that all know warp time to have a degrading chance of manifesting it.
It's the most elegant solution to smite spam that opens up options instead of closing them off while keeping the game reasonable.
Making the psychic phase much more powerful overall certainly would fix the casting of smite a whole bunch of times, but it would also create other, arguably worse, problems, as Lindsay pointed out.
Your idea that “we can fix this balance issue by making other options better” is not inherently a bad one; but imagine if you’re Necrons. All this would do would be make your army even worse.
Tbh, I’m not sure how they’ll fix this issue, but I do hope they don’t go too far in the other direction. Maybe make smite have the haywire effect - auto cast but does no mortal wounds on a 1, 1 MW on 2-5 and d3 MW on a 6
Making the psychic phase much more powerful overall certainly would fix the casting of smite a whole bunch of times, but it would also create other, arguably worse, problems, as Lindsay pointed out.
Your idea that “we can fix this balance issue by making other options better” is not inherently a bad one; but imagine if you’re Necrons. All this would do would be make your army even worse.
Tbh, I’m not sure how they’ll fix this issue, but I do hope they don’t go too far in the other direction. Maybe make smite have the haywire effect - auto cast but does no mortal wounds on a 1, 1 MW on 2-5 and d3 MW on a 6
It's not making the other options better. It's making the other options usable.
The issue with smite spam comes from 2 places. 1) there are dirt cheap psykers that ONLY know smite. 2) Each other power can only be cast once, so even if you had more expensive psykers that knew 2-3 powers but could cast 2 their usefulness to you is extremely limited AND hard capped by the number of power you want to use. If the only powers you want are warp time and smite then you only need 1 psyker who knows warp time.
By making powers castable more than once you first open up the option for players. Now those more expensive psykers who know more than one power become extremely more desirable. You might WANT 3 guys in your army who can cast 2 powers a turn because they will actually get to do so. Purchasing the more expensive psykers means you have less room for the dirt cheap smite onlys.
Second if you STILL bought smite only psykers at BEST you are casting smite 8 times a turn. And that 8th time requires a 12 to go off, which means your also suffering perils.
Smite... and any power.. Stops being reliable after WCV 7.
This wouldn't HURT Necrons and Tau. Instead of getting hit by 6 smites that all have a 83% chance to succeed it's far more likely that they will only ever get hit by 3-4 smites max regardless f how many psykers the enemy brings. Which, again, promotes bringing more expensive more versatile psykers to the table so you can mix up which powers are being used more. There is NO situation where this change would make things worse for any army.
I would LOVE to have the chance to cast The Horror twice a turn while throwing about more catalyst. Could you imagine having multiple hive tyrants/neuros/zoanthropes actually being worth a damn? Again... unlikely to get more than 4 smites off. But god.... we could actually use all that extra casting we have to pay for while reducing the number of smites the enemy is actually suffering.
But what he is saying that there are many powers currently balanced b.c you can ONLY cast them once, if you make those other powers able to cast multi-times its going to open up more problems and i completely agree.
Smite can be fixed in many ways,
1) increase the cast from base 5 to base 6
2) a 5+ only does 1 MW and a 11-12 does D3
3) Increase the point cost of more units with smite
4) Deny smite always on a 4+
5) Smite perils on all doubles
etc... etc...
We dont need to let all powers dbl cast to fix 1 spammable power, i personally think Smite is fine and only needs to have some units increase in points. If it were to be nerf just make it cast on a 6+ at least
Edit: An example, Ynnari army with Yncarne and Yvraine could cast Word of the Phoenix 4x, on average i believe 3 will go off with out CP re-rolls (they have a +1 to cast). That means you could give out 4 SfD actions in 1 phase, yes the SFD was nerf a bit but you get the idea. Or CSM with Warpspeed etc...
Anyway maybe this discussion belongs more in a non-Tyranid tactics forum.
Those who have found success with a predominantly shooty Nid army, what have you been using? I’m looking at these heavy slots and all of the choices are extremely appealing. Biovores, Tfex w/acid spray, Exocrines...plus the Hive Guard, though not in the heavy slot, are amazing with the Impaler Cannon.
luke1705 wrote: Anyway maybe this discussion belongs more in a non-Tyranid tactics forum.
Those who have found success with a predominantly shooty Nid army, what have you been using? I’m looking at these heavy slots and all of the choices are extremely appealing. Biovores, Tfex w/acid spray, Exocrines...plus the Hive Guard, though not in the heavy slot, are amazing with the Impaler Cannon.
buddha wrote: I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.
Not a bad idea. How's OOE with an escort of a pair of CC Fexes looking these days? Also, does a mix of gunline/assault Nids work well or would it best to commit to one or the other?
Pure assault has not been working well for me. Though I think that might be a list issue. I don't have nearly enough stealers/hormagaunts as I feel I need to make the list work (currently 24 and 40, want 40-60 and 60-90 respectively).
I've been trying 3 Stone Crushers with OOE and a Malanthrope. Not been having great results so far. Even with Kraken's 3d6 pick the highest advances, they're just so slow and if the Malanthrope falls behind, you lose the -1 bubble. When they do make it across the board, they hit hard though. But typically, I lose 1-2 Stone Crushers on the approach so I'm not sure it's worth it.
I might give 3 melee Codex fexes with the -1 upgrade instead a go to save points on the soon to be nerfed Malanthrope. Which is a shame, because I love the Stone Crusher model.
Biovores have been all stars, but I can't see myself buying another set of 3 unless I go the China route given how expensive they are combined with GW's lack of subtlety in adjusting points values.
buddha wrote: I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.
Not a bad idea. How's OOE with an escort of a pair of CC Fexes looking these days? Also, does a mix of gunline/assault Nids work well or would it best to commit to one or the other?
Pure assault has not been working well for me. Though I think that might be a list issue. I don't have nearly enough stealers/hormagaunts as I feel I need to make the list work (currently 24 and 40, want 40-60 and 60-90 respectively).
I've been trying 3 Stone Crushers with OOE and a Malanthrope. Not been having great results so far. Even with Kraken's 3d6 pick the highest advances, they're just so slow and if the Malanthrope falls behind, you lose the -1 bubble. When they do make it across the board, they hit hard though. But typically, I lose 1-2 Stone Crushers on the approach so I'm not sure it's worth it.
I might give 3 melee Codex fexes with the -1 upgrade instead a go to save points on the soon to be nerfed Malanthrope. Which is a shame, because I love the Stone Crusher model.
Biovores have been all stars, but I can't see myself buying another set of 3 unless I go the China route given how expensive they are combined with GW's lack of subtlety in adjusting points values.
Here is hoping next year we see that vore kit in plastic to build biovores and pyrovores. If they actually make that i imagine it will sell out over night
buddha wrote: I'm liking a hybrid fex with a HVC and scything talon with enhanced senses, spore scyts, and a bone mace. The fex is a threat at range and in CC though obviously needs the right list to be in but to support a shooting element it seems like a good anti-vehicle investment. Each are 128pts in that setup and work well in pairs.
Not a bad idea. How's OOE with an escort of a pair of CC Fexes looking these days? Also, does a mix of gunline/assault Nids work well or would it best to commit to one or the other?
Pure assault has not been working well for me. Though I think that might be a list issue. I don't have nearly enough stealers/hormagaunts as I feel I need to make the list work (currently 24 and 40, want 40-60 and 60-90 respectively).
I've been trying 3 Stone Crushers with OOE and a Malanthrope. Not been having great results so far. Even with Kraken's 3d6 pick the highest advances, they're just so slow and if the Malanthrope falls behind, you lose the -1 bubble. When they do make it across the board, they hit hard though. But typically, I lose 1-2 Stone Crushers on the approach so I'm not sure it's worth it.
I might give 3 melee Codex fexes with the -1 upgrade instead a go to save points on the soon to be nerfed Malanthrope. Which is a shame, because I love the Stone Crusher model.
Biovores have been all stars, but I can't see myself buying another set of 3 unless I go the China route given how expensive they are combined with GW's lack of subtlety in adjusting points values.
If you have trouble with the manalthrope lagging behind you can use the regular double move stratragem to move it forward. It can not shoot anyway.
I am having no luck with this in other parts of the forum so maybe someone here can help since I would be making it to go in the first post here I figure it fits well enough.
I am trying to make a quick reference sheet for Tyranids in the same vein as the fold out page from the back of the old codex. I want to include a line (with stat line) for every nid unit including forgeworld and shrikes from the index and all the wargear.
No points. Just the rules so you don't need to flip through the codex for stat lines or weapon profiles.
To make it legal to post to dakka I want to make it a PDF form with the little type fields so you guys can fill out the actual information yourselves from my template. I intend to make a 8.5 x 11 version and a small format (5 x 8 i think?).
I am having trouble tracking down free software that lets me create those type fields on pdf forms though. Anyone know of anything?
I don't know of a pdf editor that is free. You can get OpenOffice and try doing something in that. It's as advanced editor I can think of that is also free and available on multiple platforms.
I personally plan to scan/copy each datasheet from the book that I need and put them in a binder. That cuts down greatly on the number of pages I have to flip through.
It's one of our best combos. In many lists, the devourer gaunts are still not even top priority on arrival, either, so they get to keep shooting. Punishing.
Trygons are surprisingly heavy hitters, as well. They are our second strongest anti-tank in the codex without any outside buffs (Genestealer units over 10 models being #1). Even considering outside buffs and various wargear options, the only two units that are more efficient are a million variations of GS (Acid maw, TS, broodlord buff, etc.) and meleefex that have charged and have the OOE buff. Though I do concede, a behemoth hive tyrant with the behemoth WL trait and toxin sacs might do more damage with MRC or the behemoth relic, I've just never bothered with the math on such a niche build.
I've had Trygons put a solid dent in Morty, barbed hierodule, slap roboute, etc. They're just soooo fragile.
Bit of an awkward question, but what would people recommend running for "learning" games against new players with Start Collecting boxes? I'm tempted to run the units from the new Tyranid Start Collecting box, but I'm afraid it will either run them over with a melee alpha strike or get gunned down horribly on the approach. Somewhat similar concern with the old box too, though it has some shooting options at least to give a feel for all phases.
Any ideas for a more "balanced" list? Generally most of the Start Collecting boxes hover around 21-25 power and 450-ish points.
Strat_N8 wrote: Bit of an awkward question, but what would people recommend running for "learning" games against new players with Start Collecting boxes? I'm tempted to run the units from the new Tyranid Start Collecting box, but I'm afraid it will either run them over with a melee alpha strike or get gunned down horribly on the approach. Somewhat similar concern with the old box too, though it has some shooting options at least to give a feel for all phases.
Any ideas for a more "balanced" list? Generally most of the Start Collecting boxes hover around 21-25 power and 450-ish points.
I think you should use Termagants, Warriors and a Neurothrope. You can cover all phases with that and neither of these units is too brutal in CC or shooting.
Carnifex-4xdevourers, adrenal, spores, monstrous acid maw, bone mace(burning my last 2 pts, never used it)
Kronos Battalion:
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
30 Termagants-20 devourers
3 rippers
3 rippers
Kronos Spearhead:
Malanthrope (after CA release goodbye my friend, you didnt help much anyway)
3 Hive guard-impalers
exocrine
biovore
biovore
biovore.
We could switch warlord, warlord traits and powers between games hence not listing them.
Game 1 Vs Blood Angels:
His list was 4xdevastators with missiles, 5 land speeders with bolters/multi meltas in varying combos starting on the board.
In reserve he had the sanguinor, 2 big sanguinary guard units, 2 sanguinary priests and 2 sanguinary ancients.
We are playing table quarters and itc mission with bonus pts for characters scoring.
I deployed to block his deep strike out of my zone and put the stealers to push out forwards. Lictor, both ripper units and flyrant in reserve.
He took first turn and nuked the carnifex. Rest of his fire was pretty ineffective. Killed some screening termagants and put a handful of wounds on the exocrine, not enough to drop him a tier. his reserves stay off.
My first turn I pop double advance on the small stealer unit. Other stealer unit advances too. Both well within charge range. I keep my reserves off and push up with my screening units to deny him drop zones.
I open fire and kill 3 land speeders along with a unit of devastators. I move the biovores and manage to miss with 2 and put them out to deny more drop zones.
My stealers both make their charges. End result. He has a land speeder on 1 wound fighting the 19 unit and the 15 unit kills a land speeder and piles into both devastator units.
Turn two he realises if he doesnt drop in I'm going to deny him anywhere to drop and be tabled. He drops in to my left next to the stealers and broodlord (whos exposed) with everybody. Land speeder leaves combat and shoots ineffectually at the exocrine.
His sanguinary guard all have plasma pistols and nuke the broodlord.
He fails his charges as its now an 11" to the stealers.
My turn two I drop in everything, rippers go to the far corners for recon. Flyrant and lictor drop in to do some fighting.
Smites+psychic scream+shooting kill all but 2 of one unit of sanguinary guard.
I charge in with stealers and slaughter the other unit except the champion. the sanguinor makes an obnoxious amount of saves and lives. A handful of stealers die. The other unit+characters are being wrapped up by hormagaunts.
on the other side the small stealer squad butchers more devastators (I wrapped him to avoid a fall back) theres 1 left alive.
His turn three he punchs around a bit but its over really. We end up with one sanguinary priest in combat with 30 termagants and I offer him to hand me the max pts (I could have stayed locking him all game and scored every single pt) and call it a game.
Tyranid Win! 42-4
Game two Vs Admech:
his list: Cawl, Dakka robots, triple onager, big unit of destroyers, some rangers/vanguard to be in the way. a domius and an enginseer to fill detachments.
Deployment is diagonal. Bonus pt is hold your opponents priority objective.
Boards got very little blocking terrain so I deploy to rush him and hope to weather the storm. One unit of stealers in reserve to lictor taxi, lictor, rippers and tyrant in reserve as usual. He deploys in gunline formation: toys at the back, chumps at the front.
He goes first, pops into double shoot mode and pops wrath of mars. He kills: all the hormagaunts, all the termagants, 12 of the stealers, the carnifex dies immediately(its a theme)
My turn I pop double advance on the surviving stealers, drop everything in to take recon with the rippers and to charge his left flank with the tyrant/stealers/lictor.
Exocrine walks out from behind its hiding spot. I spend my shooting wittling 3 units of troops down to 1 guy. psychic does the same with smites, the tyrant whiffs his smite/psychic screams at an onager.
Double advance stealers charge the 3 1-man squads. They slaughter them, pop the overrun strategem, then the attack again strategem and tie up the robots, 2 onagers and the destroyers.
The tyrant managed to charge the onager he cast at but flubs his attacks (just like he did his shots. I swear hes a double 1's machine.)
Its basically over as my opponent only has cawl, the dominus and 2 units of rangers not locked/falling back. he fights on but the game is just a series of him falling back and me smiting/shooting/pummeling him.
Tyranids win! 38-9 I think.
Game three Vs Grey Knights
His list:
3 Grand masters in dreadknights, Draigo, apothecary, 5 paladins, 4 interceptor squads.
Deployment is the pointy hammer and anvil. Mission is 6 objectives, hold 5 for the bonus pt.
Firstly this guy got my best sportsman vote. He got a bad match up and played it like a champ, great fun throughout, we were pointing out little mistakes, helping each other out, just generally having a good time. This was top table at a GT and it could have easily been a few beers deep gaming at home. I was pretty fortunate that all my opponents were a good laugh, only really had one game where someone got a little salty. But Toby especially was great fun.
First time warlord traits matter, i put soul hunger on my Nuerothrope.
I screen with hormagaunts out front, second termagant screen 4" behind so he can only rapid fire the hormagaunts and block out my deployment zone so he cant touch me. I deploy heavy right to encourage him on the left. small stealer unit in infestation, lictor, rippers and tyrant in deep strike.
He deploys interceptors and apothecary on the board, rest in deep strike.
He takes first turn and drops everything in, interceptors use their shunt to join the front lines. I let him cast gate so the apothecary can join in too. I want to drop my rippers on the objectives in his deployment zone so am happy to let him clear it out.
He smites, gets sanctuary off on the warlord grand master and kills a few hormagaunts. One of the grand masters takes a couple of wounds from soul hunger.
He shoots down the hive guard (nowhere to hide them sadly), plinks a couple of wounds off the exocrine and kills most of the hormagaunts. He charges into the remaining hormagaunts (he opted not to kill them all so he could) and slaughters them unsurprisingly. One uit made a long enough charge to consolidate and stop my termagants shooting.
My turn, termagants fall back. genestealers move up to clear out that unit of interceptors. Infestation unit pops out the ground and looks menacingly at a grand master. carnifex moves towards him (hey look its still alive.)
Rippers and lictor drop onto objectives. Tyrant drops in to charge some interceptors as the dreadknights are wrapped up safe.
Psychic plinks a few wounds on the nearest dreadknight. My shooting mainly focuses on annihilating the paladins (exocrine popped the extra damage strategem and did most of the work.)
Big stealers charge the interceptors. Small stealers and carnifex charge the dreadknight. Tyrant and lictor charge the same interceptor unit.
Small stealers go first and flub vs his dreadknight. He promptly interrupts and kills the carnifex (one day you'll survive turn one mr carnifex, one day)
Other stealers annihilate the interceptors. tyrant kills all but 1 interceptor and he removes casualties to pull the lictor out of combat.
His turn two he tries to gate the dreadknight out of combat with the stealers. I pop the kronos strategem and the dreadknight dies to the mortal wounds. Ouch.
He mostly focuses on dakkaing the stealers who were fighting the dreadknight and trying to kill the flyrant. It was at this stage we learnt my flyrants invincible.
My turn two I shoot a dreadkngiht to 1 wound. Stealers put the other down a good chunk. All but 2 interceptors are dead. The tyrant hops out of combat and smites, psychic screams, shoots and then charges the apothecary. It appears he too is immortal as he lives on 2 wounds.
His turn three he moves the apothecary away and goes for a last hurrah. It ends abruptly. He perils the apothecaries power. Dies, the perils death bubble hits the 1 wound grand master dies too. We both laugh.
I finish off everything bar draigo who I block with termagants.
Draigo butchers the termagants then the exocrine lights him up.
Thus ends Day 1. Tyranids have been on the top table all day. I'm sat in 1st place and I know day 2 will begin with a horror list.
Game four VS Gulliman and his flying friends.
So my next opponent seems to have based his list around a crotchety old man shouting at aircraft. Somehow this makes the aircraft better.
His list: Gulliman, Tigurius, 2 culexus, 2x5 scouts oh and 4 stormravens.
Deployment is hammer and anvil, mission is central objective is the bonus point.
I deploy my biovores, hive guard and Neruothropes inside windowless buildings. Both stealer units in infestation, lictors, rippers and hive tyrant in reserve. The rest i hide as best I can, knowing it wont help.
He deploys in gulliman formation. All the birds at the back. boss at the front so turn 1 he can move up and have them all surrounding the boss. Everybody except the culexus in the birds. 1 Culexus sits on his objective. The other is as far forward as possible.
He goes first, flies up to mid table (meeting gulliman there, he was deployed far enough forward a high advance got him central. Forward culexus walks into a building and holds the central objective.
He shoots and kills all the horms, terms, exocrine. broodlord and malanthrope live as it took the fourth bird to clear out the screens. Carnifex is cowering behind a wall so magically survives.
My first turn I drop in the tyrant to smite/scream/shoot/assault a stormraven out the sky. 1 unit of stealers uses the lictor taxi and pops up in his deployment zone to charge the culexus.
Rippers drops into more buildings to get recon. Infestation unit of stealers pops up. he pops his intercept strategem and nukes him to 1 model.
The carnifex is definitely going to die turn two so marchs up to take some shots first.Broodlord rushes the centre to steal the middle objective and hang out in the same building the culexus is in.
Tyrants fails both powers (i hate you tyrant), Broodlord smites the Raven nearest the tyrant and does a wound. Shooting put the raven down to 3 wounds. (note the carnifex was clearly too busy celebrating still being alive to actually hurt anybody)
I make all my charges. malanthrope charges a stormraven (mostly in defiance), broodlord charges the culexus, tyrant charges the stormraven. He rolls ridiculously on overwatch and does 10 wounds to the flyrant....
Genestealers charge the other culexus.
Broodlord puts 3 wounds on the culexus. genestealers put 2 on the other culexus, tyrant does 2 sodding wounds to the stormraven (I hate you tyrant) and it survives on 1 wound. The malanthrope hilariously wounds the stormraven it charged. I consolidate round to mortal wound the 1 wound raven with his poison bubble (because if shouting at planes works so does being mildly floaty and poisonous) naturally it fails to go off. What a horrible turn.
His turn two, he pulls back from all combats (except the stealers vs culexus where he cant escape) he deploys some scouts to steal the central objective back (my broodlord and tyrant were outnumbering his culexus for it.) In shooting he kills th remaining stealer from the intercepted squad. The carnifex dies messily (welp I guess turn two is better than turn one you useless bastard) as does the malanthrope. All this was 1 stormraven.
So the other 3 level their guns on the 2 wound hive tyrant and unload an unholy fully re-rollable fusillade at him. The smoke clears and he is obviously completely unscathed. (I love you tyrant)
Gulliman grumbles something about things being better back in the old days and charges the tyrant. the Tyrants stupid heavy venom cannon which up until now has rolled 3 shots every single time and missed with all three rolls 2 shots, 1 hit, 1 wound. failed save. Blam gulliman down to 6 wounds. Nice parting shot.
Gulliman hits with all, wounds with all. The tyrant who has decided he wants my love passes all his invulnerable saves.....
He swings back and put 3 more damage on Gulliman.
In the eternal combat between the culexus and the genestealers a lively debate about the pros and cons of using psychic powers to enslave humanity and cross breed them with an alien master race has broken out and nobody bothers to kill anybody. This conitnues for another 2 rounds.
My turn 3. Tyrant hops out of combat but keeps Gulliman close. Broodlord makes Gulliman closest. I smite, smite and psychic scream. fail them all......Hive tyrant shoots. Nope that lightening isnt striking twice.
I do manage to clear out some scouts and a biovore finishes off the 1 wound stormraven (I'm also throwing spore mines everywhere which tigurius is smiting/bolt pistolling off each turn.)
well, best do it the old fashioned way, Tyrant and Broodlord charge ultrasmurf.
Broodlord goes first and whiffs...not now broodlord, you've been so good. My opponent burns HIS LAST TWO command points to interrupt and hit the tyrant. All hit, all wound......all saved. (You Mr Tyrant have won my affection.)
The Tyrant then of course goes back and puts Gulliman face down in the dirt. It appears he stepped on him too as Smurfy McSmurface stays face down in the dirt. There may have been some whooping.
As mentioned before the genestealers and culexus are now having afternoon tea and nobody does anything.
His turn 4. Storm ravens get their blood revenge and kill the hive tyrant and broodlord....fair enough. They did a lot more work than I could reasonably expect.
His remaining scouts, tigurius and the wounded culexus loiter in the central building holding the bonus point.
My stealers and his other culexus continue their pillow fight.
My turn 4: The genestealers have heard quite enough from the culexus so leave him alone and run to the central building. My shooting wounds the central culexus and puts a ton of spore mines around the building.
In combat the stealers charge everybody in the building. They butcher the scouts, put tigurius on 1 wound and kill the culexus (oh so you don't mind actually fighting culexus, just that other ones your friend?)
They lose a couple to tigurius.
My rippers building hopped and charged the culexus the stealers left behind. Just to ObSec his objective away. Hilariously they only take 1 wound and put one on the culexus.
His turn 5:
His storm ravens now have zero targets so fly out of range and sit at the back of the board facing the wrong way. I labelled this the 'sulking because daddies dead' formation.
Tigurius goes super smite and kills all but 1 genestealer. He promptly bops that genestealer on the head with his Rod of Tigurius (who names their rod after themselves?)
My turn 5.
Tigurius survives the hive guard shooting.
I fire the biovores at the stromraven closest to the culexus trying to miss, I get 2 mines nearby.
Tigurius sits rather smugly in his building, then 3 spore mines come floating through the wall and all the air becomes acid. Tigurius dies, presumably messily.
The rippers and culexus have a detailed conversation about the issues of fracking. One ripper is bored to death.
His turn 6:
he realises I'm going to spore mine him again and table him. His Culexus runs away from rippers and spore mines in possibly the wimpiest tactical retreat of all time.
My turn 6: I chase his culexus with spore mines and fire more at him. He survives but its funny enough I dont care.
Final score: 28-26 in favour of the tyranids. Really tight game, some super bizarre dice on both sides. man of the match goes to line of sight blocking terrain and spore mines.
Game Five Vs THAT daemon list.
My opponent has: Magnus, 80 or so brims/blues, 6 daemon princes, changeling and a herald of tzeentch.
Deployment is dawn of war. cant remember bonus point as nobody got it.
Warlord trait is obviously soul hunger again.
We both deploy in bubble wrap formation. Horms at the front for me, brims for him. All the tasty goodness behind.
I keep tyrant, rippers and lictor off the board as is tradition.
He takes first turn (lost the roll every game....) and flies magnus up. Everybody else moves up to stay behind the advancing brims.
Psychic phase. I get him with the kronos strategem for weaver of fates. Takes 2 mortal wounds from soul hunger. He warptimes on a 9 and I deny on a 10. Phew, dodged both bullets.
Only a couple of princes are in smite range and are either blocked or kill a couple of horms,
My turn one: I double advance the genestalers to be 1" from magnus. The horms also advance towards the brims to hold his lines back.
Flyrant drops in to shoot and smite magnus, stays out of range of daemon prince retaliation.
Psychic: he blocks the smites, I catalyst the genestealers and onslaught the hormagaunts.
Shooting: pop the extra damage strategem on the exocrine. He whiffs really and only does 6 wounds to magnus. Hive guard make up for it between them and Biovores Magnus is down to 5 wounds.
Combat: stealers charge into magnus, horms charge the brims.
Stealers rip magnus to shreds. I overkill him by 8 wounds. the horms kill a handful of brims and lose a couple in return. I use consolidate to tag an objective.
His turn two:
He decides to go for it. Jumps the princes over the horm screen. He smites and shoots through 8 or so of the small stealer squad, he also takes a couple more wounds from soul hunger. Then charge the broodlord and small stealers, killing the broodlord and leaving a handful of stealers alive.
My turn two.
With the princes out its open season. Exocrine, Biovores and hive guard claim 2 between them. Hive tyrant shoots another and then assaults it to kill it. Carnifex (remember him, still alive turn 2, 2 games in a row) shoots the same daemon prince as the hive tyrant but doesnt do anything and also charges but does nothing.
His turn three: His last 3 princes are locked with the 4 genestealers. he smites and butchers them in combat then is mostly stood around. The brims and characters are just retreating to claim what objectives they can.
My turn three: I take down 2 more princes (carnifex and hive tyrant tag team again, with the tyrant doing literally all the work) i waste my hive guard, exocrines and 2 biovores as he moved some brims closer to them.
In combat i butcher some brims and tie up his last prince with the stealers
His turn four: massed smite (hes out of soul hunger range at this stage) and the daemon prince take out most of the genestealers.
My turn four: I kill the last prince (tag teamed again, carnifex still isn't doing anything) and a bunch more brims. The pile never seems to get smaller though.
I did make a hole and the last stealers plus the lictor pour through and eat the herald and the changeling.
With just brims and blues left we agree he can score objective pts for the last 2 turns as it makes no difference and call it there.
Another really fun opponent just a horrible match up. I had him out psychic'd, out combated, and definitely outshot.
game ends 38-9 I think,
Tyranid go 5-0 and end the tournament top of the pile.
second place at the event was an imperial soup list mostly of sisters. How far we have come since 7th edition.
Final thoughts:
That carnifex was useless, looked good on paper but too short ranged to shoot often, no ap when he does shoot, not enough attacks in combat to reliably be a threat. In the end he just turned out to be the stereotype of a distraction carnifex.
Stealers were a little lacklustre too, I rolled well below average with them most games but they never really destroyed anything impressive. Mostly just bullied scouts, rangers, devastators etc. Anything half decent they whiffed against.
Termagants were nice but considering losing the devourers or cutting down how many. In every game I used them as chaff/screening. Dont think they fired much except the last game at brims.
Rippers are all stars, those dudes got me like 12pts every game. I think 2 units is the sweet spot. Along with the lictor taxi to do objective and recon duty.
exocrine is good but a big target. not sold on him. His damage output is brutal but I feel against a top long ranged list i either have to hide him and walk out turn one reducing his effectiveness or lose him.
I would replace him with more Hive Guard. Ignoring LOS is huge and makes my list work.
Ultimately I think I'll switch to pure Kronos Brigade and go heavy on Hive Guard and Biovores, genestealer are still needed for their fear factor and speed but I dont rate them as pure hammer.
Flyrants are solid (especially if your rolls are less swingy than mine. Mine was worthless games 1-2, mediocre game 3 then an absolute menace game 4 and 5.)
Neurothropes feel good but wasteful. The onslaught one especially, I only cast onslaught once or twice per game, the rest of the time hes just a smite machine.
Broodlord is super fragile, too prone to whiffing in combat. With my reduced reliance on stealers I think hes probably going to be cut too.
poor old Malanthrope is a solid unit but probably getting cut due to his price hike. Without the exocrine to babysit hes just not needed.
So next list will likely see flyrants, neurothrope, horms, terms, rippers, stealers, then as many hive guard and Bivores as I can afford. fast attack needs filling for the brigade so might see terms get swapped out for gargoyles or the return of my beloved shrikes.
In the game against the Stormravens, you could have used that strategem that does a mortal wound to a wounded model after fighting to finish off that stormraven in turn 1.
Hang on. Overrun, followed by Adrenaline Surge? OR can’t move you within 1”. You can’t pile in if there’s no enemies within an inch?
...Unless you charged this turn, which they they did. BUT they can’t make attacks against stuff they didn’t charge. So, it’s 4CP for an extreme deep insertion GS sweep, that has decent odds on being able to surround a model in a unit it engages, preventing a Fall Back. NICE.
A little heavy on the semantics, but seems likely to survive FAQ revisions due to the high cost and scope for counter charges.
lindsay40k wrote: Hang on. Overrun, followed by Adrenaline Surge? OR can’t move you within 1”. You can’t pile in if there’s no enemies within an inch?
...Unless you charged this turn, which they they did. BUT they can’t make attacks against stuff they didn’t charge. So, it’s 4CP for an extreme deep insertion GS sweep, that has decent odds on being able to surround a model in a unit it engages, preventing a Fall Back. NICE.
A little heavy on the semantics, but seems likely to survive FAQ revisions due to the high cost and scope for counter charges.
No FAQ required. It works exactly how all the rules are described. Its exactly the same as if two units charge a unit. The first unit kills the entire charged unit. Second unit still gets to pile in and consolidate.
and yes, it is NICE
Oh, I’m not saying that an FAQ is required to clarify the mechanics, I’m saying it’s an extremely powerful double-tap that may get nerfed in the medium future.
With the GSC stuff from CA combined with the Tyranid stuff, we can now have a Purestrain unit with 5 attacks per model at S6, rending (-1/-4 AP) that can fight twice. That's brutal. With a big unit, multi-charging is more than feasible and with the GSC stratagem and lictor support as a backup, the chances of failing to get into position are much smaller.
Charge a screen, multi-charge everything behind the screen too. Mulch it, overrun and then Adrenaline surge and murder all the things in the back, giving them no chance to reply. With a Patriarch, Acolyte Iconward, Primus and 20 Purestrains in a Supreme Command that's 580 points and I would be shocked if it didn't make its points back on the drop and still be a massive threat. CP hog though, certainly.
3d6 with a reroll and you want a 5 or a 6, means you are VERY likely to get what you need with the primus and stealers, then the Iconward with Patriarch can just try to get lucky and Lictor taxi if they fail.
You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Marmatag wrote: You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Why does capping squads at 19 help? I must be missing something.
Marmatag wrote: You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Why does capping squads at 19 help? I must be missing something.
ITC secondary objectives. You pick the 3 you want to go after, one is eliminating squads of 10+ (for 1 point) or 20+ (for 2 points) with a cap at 4.
By keeping his squads at 19, this means that eliminating the squad is worth only 1 point.
But i can't imagine someone not taking this secondary, and probably scoring reasonably well on it, or just not being able to dent it at all (based on game flow).
I'm just questioning if he got mileage out of denying the points versus the lost utility.
Marmatag wrote: You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Great questions.
Also good to see that nids can compete against 2 of the top list, Guilliman and escort and Chaos Smite spam. Only other list I would be interested to see if we can hold up is to Astra militarum conscripts.
Reading your after action, it seems like you feel a lot of the units where meh. Would be interested to see how you change the list. Did you feel running 2 hive fleets was worth it? Did you have synapse issues?
Great batrep! Yep Kronos really paid off, it will surely alter the "meta" not a "must take", but the possability that it can show will haunt psych heavy lists. I guess word is not out yet...charging Magnus towards the Soul Hunger? I am feeling that the old "Dakafex" is not that good, I plan to try out Deathspitter fexen or Scythe+Gun fexen, I think those will still be usable. Too bad you did not have a Miasma Cannon for auto hits.
Marmatag wrote: You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Great questions.
Also good to see that nids can compete against 2 of the top list, Guilliman and escort and Chaos Smite spam. Only other list I would be interested to see if we can hold up is to Astra militarum conscripts.
Reading your after action, it seems like you feel a lot of the units where meh. Would be interested to see how you change the list. Did you feel running 2 hive fleets was worth it? Did you have synapse issues?
Guilliman is not a top list anymore. Marines don't have screens. I'm flatly shocked he did well against 4 storm ravens though. They must have been multi-melta & lascannon, without the assault cannons. Because assault cannons on those ravens would have chunked his face.
Marmatag wrote: You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Great questions.
Also good to see that nids can compete against 2 of the top list, Guilliman and escort and Chaos Smite spam. Only other list I would be interested to see if we can hold up is to Astra militarum conscripts.
Reading your after action, it seems like you feel a lot of the units where meh. Would be interested to see how you change the list. Did you feel running 2 hive fleets was worth it? Did you have synapse issues?
Conscripts are less of an issue, because GW has been constantly nerfing them. With CA, they now cost 4 pts.
Speaking of which, do you think that Geoff made a mistake in deployment with both the hive guard on the board right (top perspective view) and having the tyrannofex also being right behind the hormagaunts? If he had deployed them a bit better that game may not have been as close with morty taking an extra 6 hive guard shots, and 4d6 tyrannofex shots.
It just seemed like odd deployment to me. Everytime I have played against Oblits they have been pretty easy to zone turn one from hitting anything too juicy.
1) ". he pops his intercept strategem and nukes him to 1 model." - Can only intercept with infantry units, and even then at -1 to hit. Sounds like a mistake that cost you quite a bit.
2) Obviously I have no idea what the board looked like, so not sure if it was even remotely feasible, but, if you remove all non-fliers, the opponent automatically loses. Some tournaments don't call tabling a full lose, so maybe you didn't do it to keep scoring points for standings. Again, wasn't there, don't know the exact tourney rules or the board, just a musing.
I think you must be rolling -really- poorly with GS. I've had some bad luck with them too, but going off the averages they're basically our best hammer against almost every target. My experience seems to be very similar to yours-despite our different lists-in that once you can get a stealer unit bouncing around inside the enemy lines, it's basically game over. Are you going to keep the GS as kraken?
Despite what everyone on the internet says, many players do not have massive screens. Of those that do, many use them to protect against assaults, but still need to come out to assault themselves, something we're fantastic at countering. We're great at tearing through 20-40 body screens, which is often all it takes to crack into a list.
Tyranids are going to drastically change the meta, and I think we're flexible enough to keep adjusting to whatever the meta becomes.
Drager wrote: With the GSC stuff from CA combined with the Tyranid stuff, we can now have a Purestrain unit with 5 attacks per model at S6, rending (-1/-4 AP) that can fight twice. That's brutal. With a big unit, multi-charging is more than feasible and with the GSC stratagem and lictor support as a backup, the chances of failing to get into position are much smaller.
Charge a screen, multi-charge everything behind the screen too. Mulch it, overrun and then Adrenaline surge and murder all the things in the back, giving them no chance to reply. With a Patriarch, Acolyte Iconward, Primus and 20 Purestrains in a Supreme Command that's 580 points and I would be shocked if it didn't make its points back on the drop and still be a massive threat. CP hog though, certainly.
3d6 with a reroll and you want a 5 or a 6, means you are VERY likely to get what you need with the primus and stealers, then the Iconward with Patriarch can just try to get lucky and Lictor taxi if they fail.
580 pts is like 48 <Hive Fleet> genestealers. I think I'd much rather have fall back and charge and more than twice the bodies. As much as we call GS hammers, they're actually much closer to super industrial laser scalpels duct taped to a pencil. They will cut through anything, and are meant to be used precisely, but a child could break them in half.
What's the best ranged anti-tank for nids now? Is it Biovores? Looking for something to crack open stuff for my Jeanstealers to nom the juicy bits inside.
BaconCatBug wrote: What's the best ranged anti-tank for nids now? Is it Biovores? Looking for something to crack open stuff for my Jeanstealers to nom the juicy bits inside.
Are GSC Leman Russes worth using?
It looks like in most cases the most efficient is exocrines. Biovores are still great and rupture fex edges out the exocrine on t8 but thats it. Hive guard do good work and venom cannons can put in some work but are less point efficient in general.
580 pts is like 48 <Hive Fleet> genestealers. I think I'd much rather have fall back and charge and more than twice the bodies. As much as we call GS hammers, they're actually much closer to super industrial laser scalpels duct taped to a pencil. They will cut through anything, and are meant to be used precisely, but a child could break them in half.
Eh this is a good argument. Would rather have a detachment of 3x16 Kraken Genestealers that your opponent cannot ignore, and the stealers can actually survive and reach them still.
Olenos wrote: Speaking of which, do you think that Geoff made a mistake in deployment with both the hive guard on the board right (top perspective view) and having the tyrannofex also being right behind the hormagaunts? If he had deployed them a bit better that game may not have been as close with morty taking an extra 6 hive guard shots, and 4d6 tyrannofex shots.
It just seemed like odd deployment to me. Everytime I have played against Oblits they have been pretty easy to zone turn one from hitting anything too juicy.
Yeah, there were several "Huh?" moments, but I think Frontline sometimes play to show units in action more than optimal use. He also seemed to pass on getting full use out of his Smite...Still, fun to see how someone else runs a force....
I mean not only did morty walk into a kill box, he then hopped over and mixed it up with Swarmy. I thought that was an odd play. More fun than competative.
BaconCatBug wrote: What's the best ranged anti-tank for nids now? Is it Biovores? Looking for something to crack open stuff for my Jeanstealers to nom the juicy bits inside.
Are GSC Leman Russes worth using?
6 Hive Guard and double tap. And no, non-double tapping leman russes are very poor.
I'm going to do some light playtesting with the Swarmlord and see how he does until my force is ready.
And still be useful, if it gets to shoot. 
I am feeling that the old "Dakafex" is not that good, I plan to try out Deathspitter fexen or Scythe+Gun fexen, I think those will still be usable. Too bad you did not have a Miasma Cannon for auto hits. 