BaconCatBug wrote: What's the best ranged anti-tank for nids now? Is it Biovores? Looking for something to crack open stuff for my Jeanstealers to nom the juicy bits inside.
Are GSC Leman Russes worth using?
There's a handy table in the OP I made that shows efficiency vs T7 3+. Hint, Biovores are not on it because they are not efficient damage dealers except vs things with good invulns or higher T. Their real strength is that they can strongly limit enemy movement, and even their misses have the opportunity to deal damage later (If you do the math figuring that all of their misses would also do dmg to the target, then they are one of the most efficient AT sources we have. But only getting damage out of half of their shots on the target means they are... half as effective).
[Edit] I guess it never made it there. Here's the chart.
If you factor in the rest of the unit's melee attacks (and a second Demolition Charge), the expected damage goes up to about 5.83 wounds for 12.85 points per wound. Not too bad.
If you factor in the rest of the unit's melee attacks (and a second Demolition Charge), the expected damage goes up to about 5.83 wounds for 12.85 points per wound. Not too bad.
That is indeed very good, but the Demo Charges are limited to one use only, right?
Yes, but you generally don't expect the squad to survive after bombing/mauling their target anyway, so it usually isn't a factor. Admittedly, I have had a few games where they have been ignored after bombing a target since their perceived threat drops off once they have delivered their payload.
The other nice thing with Demo Charges is that each Acolyte kit comes with 2 of them, so you have a fully functional squad straight from the box opposed to the other weapons which require multiples.
BaconCatBug wrote: What's the best ranged anti-tank for nids now? Is it Biovores? Looking for something to crack open stuff for my Jeanstealers to nom the juicy bits inside.
Are GSC Leman Russes worth using?
There's a handy table in the OP I made that shows efficiency vs T7 3+. Hint, Biovores are not on it because they are not efficient damage dealers except vs things with good invulns or higher T. Their real strength is that they can strongly limit enemy movement, and even their misses have the opportunity to deal damage later (If you do the math figuring that all of their misses would also do dmg to the target, then they are one of the most efficient AT sources we have. But only getting damage out of half of their shots on the target means they are... half as effective).
[Edit] I guess it never made it there. Here's the chart.
Awesome! I lost this thing and forgot about it haha. Adding it now.
Question to Trevigon. If i make a game with 1000 Points and i use a Trevigon, do i calculate te Points for the sapwning Termagants or can i spanw every round Termagants for free?
Tyri wrote: Question to Trevigon. If i make a game with 1000 Points and i use a Trevigon, do i calculate te Points for the sapwning Termagants or can i spanw every round Termagants for free?
In matched play you would have to set aside points to create a new unit, but you can replenish existing squads for free. If you aren't playing a matched play mission then you can spawn or replenish for free.
So I'm playing around with more or less the models that I have trying to come up with something fairly competitive. What do you all think of this list? Should be fairly straight forward. Horms get in the way and use their pile ins to clog as many gears as possible, two squads of stealers up the board, 1 takes a lictor taxi, Devilgants accompany Trygon and double tap, Tyrants drop in and do what they do. Rippers for scoring objectives. I brought the Kronos detachment for some anti psyker shenanigans, but is it worth it? Also wasnt sure about the Trygon prime but I had some spare points and wasnt sure where to put them. Is this too many stealers? I'd Is the list too one dimensional? Thanks for the feedback!
Tyri wrote: Question to Trevigon. If i make a game with 1000 Points and i use a Trevigon, do i calculate te Points for the sapwning Termagants or can i spanw every round Termagants for free?
The general rule for reinforcement points is if your adding models back to an existing unit it's free. If your creating a new unit it's costs points. There are VERY few exceptions to this in the game and those exceptions have rules that specifically say they are exceptions.
Carnifex-4xdevourers, adrenal, spores, monstrous acid maw, bone mace(burning my last 2 pts, never used it)
Kronos Battalion:
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
30 Termagants-20 devourers
3 rippers
3 rippers
Kronos Spearhead:
Malanthrope (after CA release goodbye my friend, you didnt help much anyway)
3 Hive guard-impalers
exocrine
biovore
biovore
biovore.
We could switch warlord, warlord traits and powers between games hence not listing them.
Game 1 Vs Blood Angels:
His list was 4xdevastators with missiles, 5 land speeders with bolters/multi meltas in varying combos starting on the board.
In reserve he had the sanguinor, 2 big sanguinary guard units, 2 sanguinary priests and 2 sanguinary ancients.
We are playing table quarters and itc mission with bonus pts for characters scoring.
I deployed to block his deep strike out of my zone and put the stealers to push out forwards. Lictor, both ripper units and flyrant in reserve.
He took first turn and nuked the carnifex. Rest of his fire was pretty ineffective. Killed some screening termagants and put a handful of wounds on the exocrine, not enough to drop him a tier. his reserves stay off.
My first turn I pop double advance on the small stealer unit. Other stealer unit advances too. Both well within charge range. I keep my reserves off and push up with my screening units to deny him drop zones.
I open fire and kill 3 land speeders along with a unit of devastators. I move the biovores and manage to miss with 2 and put them out to deny more drop zones.
My stealers both make their charges. End result. He has a land speeder on 1 wound fighting the 19 unit and the 15 unit kills a land speeder and piles into both devastator units.
Turn two he realises if he doesnt drop in I'm going to deny him anywhere to drop and be tabled. He drops in to my left next to the stealers and broodlord (whos exposed) with everybody. Land speeder leaves combat and shoots ineffectually at the exocrine.
His sanguinary guard all have plasma pistols and nuke the broodlord.
He fails his charges as its now an 11" to the stealers.
My turn two I drop in everything, rippers go to the far corners for recon. Flyrant and lictor drop in to do some fighting.
Smites+psychic scream+shooting kill all but 2 of one unit of sanguinary guard.
I charge in with stealers and slaughter the other unit except the champion. the sanguinor makes an obnoxious amount of saves and lives. A handful of stealers die. The other unit+characters are being wrapped up by hormagaunts.
on the other side the small stealer squad butchers more devastators (I wrapped him to avoid a fall back) theres 1 left alive.
His turn three he punchs around a bit but its over really. We end up with one sanguinary priest in combat with 30 termagants and I offer him to hand me the max pts (I could have stayed locking him all game and scored every single pt) and call it a game.
Tyranid Win! 42-4
Game two Vs Admech:
his list: Cawl, Dakka robots, triple onager, big unit of destroyers, some rangers/vanguard to be in the way. a domius and an enginseer to fill detachments.
Deployment is diagonal. Bonus pt is hold your opponents priority objective.
Boards got very little blocking terrain so I deploy to rush him and hope to weather the storm. One unit of stealers in reserve to lictor taxi, lictor, rippers and tyrant in reserve as usual. He deploys in gunline formation: toys at the back, chumps at the front.
He goes first, pops into double shoot mode and pops wrath of mars. He kills: all the hormagaunts, all the termagants, 12 of the stealers, the carnifex dies immediately(its a theme)
My turn I pop double advance on the surviving stealers, drop everything in to take recon with the rippers and to charge his left flank with the tyrant/stealers/lictor.
Exocrine walks out from behind its hiding spot. I spend my shooting wittling 3 units of troops down to 1 guy. psychic does the same with smites, the tyrant whiffs his smite/psychic screams at an onager.
Double advance stealers charge the 3 1-man squads. They slaughter them, pop the overrun strategem, then the attack again strategem and tie up the robots, 2 onagers and the destroyers.
The tyrant managed to charge the onager he cast at but flubs his attacks (just like he did his shots. I swear hes a double 1's machine.)
Its basically over as my opponent only has cawl, the dominus and 2 units of rangers not locked/falling back. he fights on but the game is just a series of him falling back and me smiting/shooting/pummeling him.
Tyranids win! 38-9 I think.
Game three Vs Grey Knights
His list:
3 Grand masters in dreadknights, Draigo, apothecary, 5 paladins, 4 interceptor squads.
Deployment is the pointy hammer and anvil. Mission is 6 objectives, hold 5 for the bonus pt.
Firstly this guy got my best sportsman vote. He got a bad match up and played it like a champ, great fun throughout, we were pointing out little mistakes, helping each other out, just generally having a good time. This was top table at a GT and it could have easily been a few beers deep gaming at home. I was pretty fortunate that all my opponents were a good laugh, only really had one game where someone got a little salty. But Toby especially was great fun.
First time warlord traits matter, i put soul hunger on my Nuerothrope.
I screen with hormagaunts out front, second termagant screen 4" behind so he can only rapid fire the hormagaunts and block out my deployment zone so he cant touch me. I deploy heavy right to encourage him on the left. small stealer unit in infestation, lictor, rippers and tyrant in deep strike.
He deploys interceptors and apothecary on the board, rest in deep strike.
He takes first turn and drops everything in, interceptors use their shunt to join the front lines. I let him cast gate so the apothecary can join in too. I want to drop my rippers on the objectives in his deployment zone so am happy to let him clear it out.
He smites, gets sanctuary off on the warlord grand master and kills a few hormagaunts. One of the grand masters takes a couple of wounds from soul hunger.
He shoots down the hive guard (nowhere to hide them sadly), plinks a couple of wounds off the exocrine and kills most of the hormagaunts. He charges into the remaining hormagaunts (he opted not to kill them all so he could) and slaughters them unsurprisingly. One uit made a long enough charge to consolidate and stop my termagants shooting.
My turn, termagants fall back. genestealers move up to clear out that unit of interceptors. Infestation unit pops out the ground and looks menacingly at a grand master. carnifex moves towards him (hey look its still alive.)
Rippers and lictor drop onto objectives. Tyrant drops in to charge some interceptors as the dreadknights are wrapped up safe.
Psychic plinks a few wounds on the nearest dreadknight. My shooting mainly focuses on annihilating the paladins (exocrine popped the extra damage strategem and did most of the work.)
Big stealers charge the interceptors. Small stealers and carnifex charge the dreadknight. Tyrant and lictor charge the same interceptor unit.
Small stealers go first and flub vs his dreadknight. He promptly interrupts and kills the carnifex (one day you'll survive turn one mr carnifex, one day)
Other stealers annihilate the interceptors. tyrant kills all but 1 interceptor and he removes casualties to pull the lictor out of combat.
His turn two he tries to gate the dreadknight out of combat with the stealers. I pop the kronos strategem and the dreadknight dies to the mortal wounds. Ouch.
He mostly focuses on dakkaing the stealers who were fighting the dreadknight and trying to kill the flyrant. It was at this stage we learnt my flyrants invincible.
My turn two I shoot a dreadkngiht to 1 wound. Stealers put the other down a good chunk. All but 2 interceptors are dead. The tyrant hops out of combat and smites, psychic screams, shoots and then charges the apothecary. It appears he too is immortal as he lives on 2 wounds.
His turn three he moves the apothecary away and goes for a last hurrah. It ends abruptly. He perils the apothecaries power. Dies, the perils death bubble hits the 1 wound grand master dies too. We both laugh.
I finish off everything bar draigo who I block with termagants.
Draigo butchers the termagants then the exocrine lights him up.
Thus ends Day 1. Tyranids have been on the top table all day. I'm sat in 1st place and I know day 2 will begin with a horror list.
Game four VS Gulliman and his flying friends.
So my next opponent seems to have based his list around a crotchety old man shouting at aircraft. Somehow this makes the aircraft better.
His list: Gulliman, Tigurius, 2 culexus, 2x5 scouts oh and 4 stormravens.
Deployment is hammer and anvil, mission is central objective is the bonus point.
I deploy my biovores, hive guard and Neruothropes inside windowless buildings. Both stealer units in infestation, lictors, rippers and hive tyrant in reserve. The rest i hide as best I can, knowing it wont help.
He deploys in gulliman formation. All the birds at the back. boss at the front so turn 1 he can move up and have them all surrounding the boss. Everybody except the culexus in the birds. 1 Culexus sits on his objective. The other is as far forward as possible.
He goes first, flies up to mid table (meeting gulliman there, he was deployed far enough forward a high advance got him central. Forward culexus walks into a building and holds the central objective.
He shoots and kills all the horms, terms, exocrine. broodlord and malanthrope live as it took the fourth bird to clear out the screens. Carnifex is cowering behind a wall so magically survives.
My first turn I drop in the tyrant to smite/scream/shoot/assault a stormraven out the sky. 1 unit of stealers uses the lictor taxi and pops up in his deployment zone to charge the culexus.
Rippers drops into more buildings to get recon. Infestation unit of stealers pops up. he pops his intercept strategem and nukes him to 1 model.
The carnifex is definitely going to die turn two so marchs up to take some shots first.Broodlord rushes the centre to steal the middle objective and hang out in the same building the culexus is in.
Tyrants fails both powers (i hate you tyrant), Broodlord smites the Raven nearest the tyrant and does a wound. Shooting put the raven down to 3 wounds. (note the carnifex was clearly too busy celebrating still being alive to actually hurt anybody)
I make all my charges. malanthrope charges a stormraven (mostly in defiance), broodlord charges the culexus, tyrant charges the stormraven. He rolls ridiculously on overwatch and does 10 wounds to the flyrant....
Genestealers charge the other culexus.
Broodlord puts 3 wounds on the culexus. genestealers put 2 on the other culexus, tyrant does 2 sodding wounds to the stormraven (I hate you tyrant) and it survives on 1 wound. The malanthrope hilariously wounds the stormraven it charged. I consolidate round to mortal wound the 1 wound raven with his poison bubble (because if shouting at planes works so does being mildly floaty and poisonous) naturally it fails to go off. What a horrible turn.
His turn two, he pulls back from all combats (except the stealers vs culexus where he cant escape) he deploys some scouts to steal the central objective back (my broodlord and tyrant were outnumbering his culexus for it.) In shooting he kills th remaining stealer from the intercepted squad. The carnifex dies messily (welp I guess turn two is better than turn one you useless bastard) as does the malanthrope. All this was 1 stormraven.
So the other 3 level their guns on the 2 wound hive tyrant and unload an unholy fully re-rollable fusillade at him. The smoke clears and he is obviously completely unscathed. (I love you tyrant)
Gulliman grumbles something about things being better back in the old days and charges the tyrant. the Tyrants stupid heavy venom cannon which up until now has rolled 3 shots every single time and missed with all three rolls 2 shots, 1 hit, 1 wound. failed save. Blam gulliman down to 6 wounds. Nice parting shot.
Gulliman hits with all, wounds with all. The tyrant who has decided he wants my love passes all his invulnerable saves.....
He swings back and put 3 more damage on Gulliman.
In the eternal combat between the culexus and the genestealers a lively debate about the pros and cons of using psychic powers to enslave humanity and cross breed them with an alien master race has broken out and nobody bothers to kill anybody. This conitnues for another 2 rounds.
My turn 3. Tyrant hops out of combat but keeps Gulliman close. Broodlord makes Gulliman closest. I smite, smite and psychic scream. fail them all......Hive tyrant shoots. Nope that lightening isnt striking twice.
I do manage to clear out some scouts and a biovore finishes off the 1 wound stormraven (I'm also throwing spore mines everywhere which tigurius is smiting/bolt pistolling off each turn.)
well, best do it the old fashioned way, Tyrant and Broodlord charge ultrasmurf.
Broodlord goes first and whiffs...not now broodlord, you've been so good. My opponent burns HIS LAST TWO command points to interrupt and hit the tyrant. All hit, all wound......all saved. (You Mr Tyrant have won my affection.)
The Tyrant then of course goes back and puts Gulliman face down in the dirt. It appears he stepped on him too as Smurfy McSmurface stays face down in the dirt. There may have been some whooping.
As mentioned before the genestealers and culexus are now having afternoon tea and nobody does anything.
His turn 4. Storm ravens get their blood revenge and kill the hive tyrant and broodlord....fair enough. They did a lot more work than I could reasonably expect.
His remaining scouts, tigurius and the wounded culexus loiter in the central building holding the bonus point.
My stealers and his other culexus continue their pillow fight.
My turn 4: The genestealers have heard quite enough from the culexus so leave him alone and run to the central building. My shooting wounds the central culexus and puts a ton of spore mines around the building.
In combat the stealers charge everybody in the building. They butcher the scouts, put tigurius on 1 wound and kill the culexus (oh so you don't mind actually fighting culexus, just that other ones your friend?)
They lose a couple to tigurius.
My rippers building hopped and charged the culexus the stealers left behind. Just to ObSec his objective away. Hilariously they only take 1 wound and put one on the culexus.
His turn 5:
His storm ravens now have zero targets so fly out of range and sit at the back of the board facing the wrong way. I labelled this the 'sulking because daddies dead' formation.
Tigurius goes super smite and kills all but 1 genestealer. He promptly bops that genestealer on the head with his Rod of Tigurius (who names their rod after themselves?)
My turn 5.
Tigurius survives the hive guard shooting.
I fire the biovores at the stromraven closest to the culexus trying to miss, I get 2 mines nearby.
Tigurius sits rather smugly in his building, then 3 spore mines come floating through the wall and all the air becomes acid. Tigurius dies, presumably messily.
The rippers and culexus have a detailed conversation about the issues of fracking. One ripper is bored to death.
His turn 6:
he realises I'm going to spore mine him again and table him. His Culexus runs away from rippers and spore mines in possibly the wimpiest tactical retreat of all time.
My turn 6: I chase his culexus with spore mines and fire more at him. He survives but its funny enough I dont care.
Final score: 28-26 in favour of the tyranids. Really tight game, some super bizarre dice on both sides. man of the match goes to line of sight blocking terrain and spore mines.
Game Five Vs THAT daemon list.
My opponent has: Magnus, 80 or so brims/blues, 6 daemon princes, changeling and a herald of tzeentch.
Deployment is dawn of war. cant remember bonus point as nobody got it.
Warlord trait is obviously soul hunger again.
We both deploy in bubble wrap formation. Horms at the front for me, brims for him. All the tasty goodness behind.
I keep tyrant, rippers and lictor off the board as is tradition.
He takes first turn (lost the roll every game....) and flies magnus up. Everybody else moves up to stay behind the advancing brims.
Psychic phase. I get him with the kronos strategem for weaver of fates. Takes 2 mortal wounds from soul hunger. He warptimes on a 9 and I deny on a 10. Phew, dodged both bullets.
Only a couple of princes are in smite range and are either blocked or kill a couple of horms,
My turn one: I double advance the genestalers to be 1" from magnus. The horms also advance towards the brims to hold his lines back.
Flyrant drops in to shoot and smite magnus, stays out of range of daemon prince retaliation.
Psychic: he blocks the smites, I catalyst the genestealers and onslaught the hormagaunts.
Shooting: pop the extra damage strategem on the exocrine. He whiffs really and only does 6 wounds to magnus. Hive guard make up for it between them and Biovores Magnus is down to 5 wounds.
Combat: stealers charge into magnus, horms charge the brims.
Stealers rip magnus to shreds. I overkill him by 8 wounds. the horms kill a handful of brims and lose a couple in return. I use consolidate to tag an objective.
His turn two:
He decides to go for it. Jumps the princes over the horm screen. He smites and shoots through 8 or so of the small stealer squad, he also takes a couple more wounds from soul hunger. Then charge the broodlord and small stealers, killing the broodlord and leaving a handful of stealers alive.
My turn two.
With the princes out its open season. Exocrine, Biovores and hive guard claim 2 between them. Hive tyrant shoots another and then assaults it to kill it. Carnifex (remember him, still alive turn 2, 2 games in a row) shoots the same daemon prince as the hive tyrant but doesnt do anything and also charges but does nothing.
His turn three: His last 3 princes are locked with the 4 genestealers. he smites and butchers them in combat then is mostly stood around. The brims and characters are just retreating to claim what objectives they can.
My turn three: I take down 2 more princes (carnifex and hive tyrant tag team again, with the tyrant doing literally all the work) i waste my hive guard, exocrines and 2 biovores as he moved some brims closer to them.
In combat i butcher some brims and tie up his last prince with the stealers
His turn four: massed smite (hes out of soul hunger range at this stage) and the daemon prince take out most of the genestealers.
My turn four: I kill the last prince (tag teamed again, carnifex still isn't doing anything) and a bunch more brims. The pile never seems to get smaller though.
I did make a hole and the last stealers plus the lictor pour through and eat the herald and the changeling.
With just brims and blues left we agree he can score objective pts for the last 2 turns as it makes no difference and call it there.
Another really fun opponent just a horrible match up. I had him out psychic'd, out combated, and definitely outshot.
game ends 38-9 I think,
Tyranid go 5-0 and end the tournament top of the pile.
second place at the event was an imperial soup list mostly of sisters. How far we have come since 7th edition.
Final thoughts:
That carnifex was useless, looked good on paper but too short ranged to shoot often, no ap when he does shoot, not enough attacks in combat to reliably be a threat. In the end he just turned out to be the stereotype of a distraction carnifex.
Stealers were a little lacklustre too, I rolled well below average with them most games but they never really destroyed anything impressive. Mostly just bullied scouts, rangers, devastators etc. Anything half decent they whiffed against.
Termagants were nice but considering losing the devourers or cutting down how many. In every game I used them as chaff/screening. Dont think they fired much except the last game at brims.
Rippers are all stars, those dudes got me like 12pts every game. I think 2 units is the sweet spot. Along with the lictor taxi to do objective and recon duty.
exocrine is good but a big target. not sold on him. His damage output is brutal but I feel against a top long ranged list i either have to hide him and walk out turn one reducing his effectiveness or lose him.
I would replace him with more Hive Guard. Ignoring LOS is huge and makes my list work.
Ultimately I think I'll switch to pure Kronos Brigade and go heavy on Hive Guard and Biovores, genestealer are still needed for their fear factor and speed but I dont rate them as pure hammer.
Flyrants are solid (especially if your rolls are less swingy than mine. Mine was worthless games 1-2, mediocre game 3 then an absolute menace game 4 and 5.)
Neurothropes feel good but wasteful. The onslaught one especially, I only cast onslaught once or twice per game, the rest of the time hes just a smite machine.
Broodlord is super fragile, too prone to whiffing in combat. With my reduced reliance on stealers I think hes probably going to be cut too.
poor old Malanthrope is a solid unit but probably getting cut due to his price hike. Without the exocrine to babysit hes just not needed.
So next list will likely see flyrants, neurothrope, horms, terms, rippers, stealers, then as many hive guard and Bivores as I can afford. fast attack needs filling for the brigade so might see terms get swapped out for gargoyles or the return of my beloved shrikes.
Thanks for the read folks, hope you enjoyed it.
Well written and funn. :-)
I like that the list is very diverse and still functions well. :-)
Carnifex-4xdevourers, adrenal, spores, monstrous acid maw, bone mace(burning my last 2 pts, never used it)
Kronos Battalion:
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
30 Termagants-20 devourers
3 rippers
3 rippers
Kronos Spearhead:
Malanthrope (after CA release goodbye my friend, you didnt help much anyway)
3 Hive guard-impalers
exocrine
biovore
biovore
biovore.
We could switch warlord, warlord traits and powers between games hence not listing them.
Game 1 Vs Blood Angels:
His list was 4xdevastators with missiles, 5 land speeders with bolters/multi meltas in varying combos starting on the board.
In reserve he had the sanguinor, 2 big sanguinary guard units, 2 sanguinary priests and 2 sanguinary ancients.
We are playing table quarters and itc mission with bonus pts for characters scoring.
I deployed to block his deep strike out of my zone and put the stealers to push out forwards. Lictor, both ripper units and flyrant in reserve.
He took first turn and nuked the carnifex. Rest of his fire was pretty ineffective. Killed some screening termagants and put a handful of wounds on the exocrine, not enough to drop him a tier. his reserves stay off.
My first turn I pop double advance on the small stealer unit. Other stealer unit advances too. Both well within charge range. I keep my reserves off and push up with my screening units to deny him drop zones.
I open fire and kill 3 land speeders along with a unit of devastators. I move the biovores and manage to miss with 2 and put them out to deny more drop zones.
My stealers both make their charges. End result. He has a land speeder on 1 wound fighting the 19 unit and the 15 unit kills a land speeder and piles into both devastator units.
Turn two he realises if he doesnt drop in I'm going to deny him anywhere to drop and be tabled. He drops in to my left next to the stealers and broodlord (whos exposed) with everybody. Land speeder leaves combat and shoots ineffectually at the exocrine.
His sanguinary guard all have plasma pistols and nuke the broodlord.
He fails his charges as its now an 11" to the stealers.
My turn two I drop in everything, rippers go to the far corners for recon. Flyrant and lictor drop in to do some fighting.
Smites+psychic scream+shooting kill all but 2 of one unit of sanguinary guard.
I charge in with stealers and slaughter the other unit except the champion. the sanguinor makes an obnoxious amount of saves and lives. A handful of stealers die. The other unit+characters are being wrapped up by hormagaunts.
on the other side the small stealer squad butchers more devastators (I wrapped him to avoid a fall back) theres 1 left alive.
His turn three he punchs around a bit but its over really. We end up with one sanguinary priest in combat with 30 termagants and I offer him to hand me the max pts (I could have stayed locking him all game and scored every single pt) and call it a game.
Tyranid Win! 42-4
Game two Vs Admech:
his list: Cawl, Dakka robots, triple onager, big unit of destroyers, some rangers/vanguard to be in the way. a domius and an enginseer to fill detachments.
Deployment is diagonal. Bonus pt is hold your opponents priority objective.
Boards got very little blocking terrain so I deploy to rush him and hope to weather the storm. One unit of stealers in reserve to lictor taxi, lictor, rippers and tyrant in reserve as usual. He deploys in gunline formation: toys at the back, chumps at the front.
He goes first, pops into double shoot mode and pops wrath of mars. He kills: all the hormagaunts, all the termagants, 12 of the stealers, the carnifex dies immediately(its a theme)
My turn I pop double advance on the surviving stealers, drop everything in to take recon with the rippers and to charge his left flank with the tyrant/stealers/lictor.
Exocrine walks out from behind its hiding spot. I spend my shooting wittling 3 units of troops down to 1 guy. psychic does the same with smites, the tyrant whiffs his smite/psychic screams at an onager.
Double advance stealers charge the 3 1-man squads. They slaughter them, pop the overrun strategem, then the attack again strategem and tie up the robots, 2 onagers and the destroyers.
The tyrant managed to charge the onager he cast at but flubs his attacks (just like he did his shots. I swear hes a double 1's machine.)
Its basically over as my opponent only has cawl, the dominus and 2 units of rangers not locked/falling back. he fights on but the game is just a series of him falling back and me smiting/shooting/pummeling him.
Tyranids win! 38-9 I think.
Game three Vs Grey Knights
His list:
3 Grand masters in dreadknights, Draigo, apothecary, 5 paladins, 4 interceptor squads.
Deployment is the pointy hammer and anvil. Mission is 6 objectives, hold 5 for the bonus pt.
Firstly this guy got my best sportsman vote. He got a bad match up and played it like a champ, great fun throughout, we were pointing out little mistakes, helping each other out, just generally having a good time. This was top table at a GT and it could have easily been a few beers deep gaming at home. I was pretty fortunate that all my opponents were a good laugh, only really had one game where someone got a little salty. But Toby especially was great fun.
First time warlord traits matter, i put soul hunger on my Nuerothrope.
I screen with hormagaunts out front, second termagant screen 4" behind so he can only rapid fire the hormagaunts and block out my deployment zone so he cant touch me. I deploy heavy right to encourage him on the left. small stealer unit in infestation, lictor, rippers and tyrant in deep strike.
He deploys interceptors and apothecary on the board, rest in deep strike.
He takes first turn and drops everything in, interceptors use their shunt to join the front lines. I let him cast gate so the apothecary can join in too. I want to drop my rippers on the objectives in his deployment zone so am happy to let him clear it out.
He smites, gets sanctuary off on the warlord grand master and kills a few hormagaunts. One of the grand masters takes a couple of wounds from soul hunger.
He shoots down the hive guard (nowhere to hide them sadly), plinks a couple of wounds off the exocrine and kills most of the hormagaunts. He charges into the remaining hormagaunts (he opted not to kill them all so he could) and slaughters them unsurprisingly. One uit made a long enough charge to consolidate and stop my termagants shooting.
My turn, termagants fall back. genestealers move up to clear out that unit of interceptors. Infestation unit pops out the ground and looks menacingly at a grand master. carnifex moves towards him (hey look its still alive.)
Rippers and lictor drop onto objectives. Tyrant drops in to charge some interceptors as the dreadknights are wrapped up safe.
Psychic plinks a few wounds on the nearest dreadknight. My shooting mainly focuses on annihilating the paladins (exocrine popped the extra damage strategem and did most of the work.)
Big stealers charge the interceptors. Small stealers and carnifex charge the dreadknight. Tyrant and lictor charge the same interceptor unit.
Small stealers go first and flub vs his dreadknight. He promptly interrupts and kills the carnifex (one day you'll survive turn one mr carnifex, one day)
Other stealers annihilate the interceptors. tyrant kills all but 1 interceptor and he removes casualties to pull the lictor out of combat.
His turn two he tries to gate the dreadknight out of combat with the stealers. I pop the kronos strategem and the dreadknight dies to the mortal wounds. Ouch.
He mostly focuses on dakkaing the stealers who were fighting the dreadknight and trying to kill the flyrant. It was at this stage we learnt my flyrants invincible.
My turn two I shoot a dreadkngiht to 1 wound. Stealers put the other down a good chunk. All but 2 interceptors are dead. The tyrant hops out of combat and smites, psychic screams, shoots and then charges the apothecary. It appears he too is immortal as he lives on 2 wounds.
His turn three he moves the apothecary away and goes for a last hurrah. It ends abruptly. He perils the apothecaries power. Dies, the perils death bubble hits the 1 wound grand master dies too. We both laugh.
I finish off everything bar draigo who I block with termagants.
Draigo butchers the termagants then the exocrine lights him up.
Thus ends Day 1. Tyranids have been on the top table all day. I'm sat in 1st place and I know day 2 will begin with a horror list.
Game four VS Gulliman and his flying friends.
So my next opponent seems to have based his list around a crotchety old man shouting at aircraft. Somehow this makes the aircraft better.
His list: Gulliman, Tigurius, 2 culexus, 2x5 scouts oh and 4 stormravens.
Deployment is hammer and anvil, mission is central objective is the bonus point.
I deploy my biovores, hive guard and Neruothropes inside windowless buildings. Both stealer units in infestation, lictors, rippers and hive tyrant in reserve. The rest i hide as best I can, knowing it wont help.
He deploys in gulliman formation. All the birds at the back. boss at the front so turn 1 he can move up and have them all surrounding the boss. Everybody except the culexus in the birds. 1 Culexus sits on his objective. The other is as far forward as possible.
He goes first, flies up to mid table (meeting gulliman there, he was deployed far enough forward a high advance got him central. Forward culexus walks into a building and holds the central objective.
He shoots and kills all the horms, terms, exocrine. broodlord and malanthrope live as it took the fourth bird to clear out the screens. Carnifex is cowering behind a wall so magically survives.
My first turn I drop in the tyrant to smite/scream/shoot/assault a stormraven out the sky. 1 unit of stealers uses the lictor taxi and pops up in his deployment zone to charge the culexus.
Rippers drops into more buildings to get recon. Infestation unit of stealers pops up. he pops his intercept strategem and nukes him to 1 model.
The carnifex is definitely going to die turn two so marchs up to take some shots first.Broodlord rushes the centre to steal the middle objective and hang out in the same building the culexus is in.
Tyrants fails both powers (i hate you tyrant), Broodlord smites the Raven nearest the tyrant and does a wound. Shooting put the raven down to 3 wounds. (note the carnifex was clearly too busy celebrating still being alive to actually hurt anybody)
I make all my charges. malanthrope charges a stormraven (mostly in defiance), broodlord charges the culexus, tyrant charges the stormraven. He rolls ridiculously on overwatch and does 10 wounds to the flyrant....
Genestealers charge the other culexus.
Broodlord puts 3 wounds on the culexus. genestealers put 2 on the other culexus, tyrant does 2 sodding wounds to the stormraven (I hate you tyrant) and it survives on 1 wound. The malanthrope hilariously wounds the stormraven it charged. I consolidate round to mortal wound the 1 wound raven with his poison bubble (because if shouting at planes works so does being mildly floaty and poisonous) naturally it fails to go off. What a horrible turn.
His turn two, he pulls back from all combats (except the stealers vs culexus where he cant escape) he deploys some scouts to steal the central objective back (my broodlord and tyrant were outnumbering his culexus for it.) In shooting he kills th remaining stealer from the intercepted squad. The carnifex dies messily (welp I guess turn two is better than turn one you useless bastard) as does the malanthrope. All this was 1 stormraven.
So the other 3 level their guns on the 2 wound hive tyrant and unload an unholy fully re-rollable fusillade at him. The smoke clears and he is obviously completely unscathed. (I love you tyrant)
Gulliman grumbles something about things being better back in the old days and charges the tyrant. the Tyrants stupid heavy venom cannon which up until now has rolled 3 shots every single time and missed with all three rolls 2 shots, 1 hit, 1 wound. failed save. Blam gulliman down to 6 wounds. Nice parting shot.
Gulliman hits with all, wounds with all. The tyrant who has decided he wants my love passes all his invulnerable saves.....
He swings back and put 3 more damage on Gulliman.
In the eternal combat between the culexus and the genestealers a lively debate about the pros and cons of using psychic powers to enslave humanity and cross breed them with an alien master race has broken out and nobody bothers to kill anybody. This conitnues for another 2 rounds.
My turn 3. Tyrant hops out of combat but keeps Gulliman close. Broodlord makes Gulliman closest. I smite, smite and psychic scream. fail them all......Hive tyrant shoots. Nope that lightening isnt striking twice.
I do manage to clear out some scouts and a biovore finishes off the 1 wound stormraven (I'm also throwing spore mines everywhere which tigurius is smiting/bolt pistolling off each turn.)
well, best do it the old fashioned way, Tyrant and Broodlord charge ultrasmurf.
Broodlord goes first and whiffs...not now broodlord, you've been so good. My opponent burns HIS LAST TWO command points to interrupt and hit the tyrant. All hit, all wound......all saved. (You Mr Tyrant have won my affection.)
The Tyrant then of course goes back and puts Gulliman face down in the dirt. It appears he stepped on him too as Smurfy McSmurface stays face down in the dirt. There may have been some whooping.
As mentioned before the genestealers and culexus are now having afternoon tea and nobody does anything.
His turn 4. Storm ravens get their blood revenge and kill the hive tyrant and broodlord....fair enough. They did a lot more work than I could reasonably expect.
His remaining scouts, tigurius and the wounded culexus loiter in the central building holding the bonus point.
My stealers and his other culexus continue their pillow fight.
My turn 4: The genestealers have heard quite enough from the culexus so leave him alone and run to the central building. My shooting wounds the central culexus and puts a ton of spore mines around the building.
In combat the stealers charge everybody in the building. They butcher the scouts, put tigurius on 1 wound and kill the culexus (oh so you don't mind actually fighting culexus, just that other ones your friend?)
They lose a couple to tigurius.
My rippers building hopped and charged the culexus the stealers left behind. Just to ObSec his objective away. Hilariously they only take 1 wound and put one on the culexus.
His turn 5:
His storm ravens now have zero targets so fly out of range and sit at the back of the board facing the wrong way. I labelled this the 'sulking because daddies dead' formation.
Tigurius goes super smite and kills all but 1 genestealer. He promptly bops that genestealer on the head with his Rod of Tigurius (who names their rod after themselves?)
My turn 5.
Tigurius survives the hive guard shooting.
I fire the biovores at the stromraven closest to the culexus trying to miss, I get 2 mines nearby.
Tigurius sits rather smugly in his building, then 3 spore mines come floating through the wall and all the air becomes acid. Tigurius dies, presumably messily.
The rippers and culexus have a detailed conversation about the issues of fracking. One ripper is bored to death.
His turn 6:
he realises I'm going to spore mine him again and table him. His Culexus runs away from rippers and spore mines in possibly the wimpiest tactical retreat of all time.
My turn 6: I chase his culexus with spore mines and fire more at him. He survives but its funny enough I dont care.
Final score: 28-26 in favour of the tyranids. Really tight game, some super bizarre dice on both sides. man of the match goes to line of sight blocking terrain and spore mines.
Game Five Vs THAT daemon list.
My opponent has: Magnus, 80 or so brims/blues, 6 daemon princes, changeling and a herald of tzeentch.
Deployment is dawn of war. cant remember bonus point as nobody got it.
Warlord trait is obviously soul hunger again.
We both deploy in bubble wrap formation. Horms at the front for me, brims for him. All the tasty goodness behind.
I keep tyrant, rippers and lictor off the board as is tradition.
He takes first turn (lost the roll every game....) and flies magnus up. Everybody else moves up to stay behind the advancing brims.
Psychic phase. I get him with the kronos strategem for weaver of fates. Takes 2 mortal wounds from soul hunger. He warptimes on a 9 and I deny on a 10. Phew, dodged both bullets.
Only a couple of princes are in smite range and are either blocked or kill a couple of horms,
My turn one: I double advance the genestalers to be 1" from magnus. The horms also advance towards the brims to hold his lines back.
Flyrant drops in to shoot and smite magnus, stays out of range of daemon prince retaliation.
Psychic: he blocks the smites, I catalyst the genestealers and onslaught the hormagaunts.
Shooting: pop the extra damage strategem on the exocrine. He whiffs really and only does 6 wounds to magnus. Hive guard make up for it between them and Biovores Magnus is down to 5 wounds.
Combat: stealers charge into magnus, horms charge the brims.
Stealers rip magnus to shreds. I overkill him by 8 wounds. the horms kill a handful of brims and lose a couple in return. I use consolidate to tag an objective.
His turn two:
He decides to go for it. Jumps the princes over the horm screen. He smites and shoots through 8 or so of the small stealer squad, he also takes a couple more wounds from soul hunger. Then charge the broodlord and small stealers, killing the broodlord and leaving a handful of stealers alive.
My turn two.
With the princes out its open season. Exocrine, Biovores and hive guard claim 2 between them. Hive tyrant shoots another and then assaults it to kill it. Carnifex (remember him, still alive turn 2, 2 games in a row) shoots the same daemon prince as the hive tyrant but doesnt do anything and also charges but does nothing.
His turn three: His last 3 princes are locked with the 4 genestealers. he smites and butchers them in combat then is mostly stood around. The brims and characters are just retreating to claim what objectives they can.
My turn three: I take down 2 more princes (carnifex and hive tyrant tag team again, with the tyrant doing literally all the work) i waste my hive guard, exocrines and 2 biovores as he moved some brims closer to them.
In combat i butcher some brims and tie up his last prince with the stealers
His turn four: massed smite (hes out of soul hunger range at this stage) and the daemon prince take out most of the genestealers.
My turn four: I kill the last prince (tag teamed again, carnifex still isn't doing anything) and a bunch more brims. The pile never seems to get smaller though.
I did make a hole and the last stealers plus the lictor pour through and eat the herald and the changeling.
With just brims and blues left we agree he can score objective pts for the last 2 turns as it makes no difference and call it there.
Another really fun opponent just a horrible match up. I had him out psychic'd, out combated, and definitely outshot.
game ends 38-9 I think,
Tyranid go 5-0 and end the tournament top of the pile.
second place at the event was an imperial soup list mostly of sisters. How far we have come since 7th edition.
Final thoughts:
That carnifex was useless, looked good on paper but too short ranged to shoot often, no ap when he does shoot, not enough attacks in combat to reliably be a threat. In the end he just turned out to be the stereotype of a distraction carnifex.
Stealers were a little lacklustre too, I rolled well below average with them most games but they never really destroyed anything impressive. Mostly just bullied scouts, rangers, devastators etc. Anything half decent they whiffed against.
Termagants were nice but considering losing the devourers or cutting down how many. In every game I used them as chaff/screening. Dont think they fired much except the last game at brims.
Rippers are all stars, those dudes got me like 12pts every game. I think 2 units is the sweet spot. Along with the lictor taxi to do objective and recon duty.
exocrine is good but a big target. not sold on him. His damage output is brutal but I feel against a top long ranged list i either have to hide him and walk out turn one reducing his effectiveness or lose him.
I would replace him with more Hive Guard. Ignoring LOS is huge and makes my list work.
Ultimately I think I'll switch to pure Kronos Brigade and go heavy on Hive Guard and Biovores, genestealer are still needed for their fear factor and speed but I dont rate them as pure hammer.
Flyrants are solid (especially if your rolls are less swingy than mine. Mine was worthless games 1-2, mediocre game 3 then an absolute menace game 4 and 5.)
Neurothropes feel good but wasteful. The onslaught one especially, I only cast onslaught once or twice per game, the rest of the time hes just a smite machine.
Broodlord is super fragile, too prone to whiffing in combat. With my reduced reliance on stealers I think hes probably going to be cut too.
poor old Malanthrope is a solid unit but probably getting cut due to his price hike. Without the exocrine to babysit hes just not needed.
So next list will likely see flyrants, neurothrope, horms, terms, rippers, stealers, then as many hive guard and Bivores as I can afford. fast attack needs filling for the brigade so might see terms get swapped out for gargoyles or the return of my beloved shrikes.
Thanks for the read folks, hope you enjoyed it.
N.I.B. posted this over at the tyranid hive. Thank you for the write up, it was hilarious. Well deserved victory.
@astro_nomicon - Your list is super similar to mine. You may find that 30 horms isn't enough. I find that I need a lot of bodies to make them worth it. Besides that, you'll probably find a lot of success. I've only lost to a triple wraithknight list in a KP mission, and even then it was a very close match.
Marmatag wrote:You got paid for bringing Kronos in that event looking at your opponents.
I see you capped your squads at 19 to hurt your opponents ability to score. Did you feel that it made your gaunts less useful? Did you find that reducing the squad size actually helped you win games by reducing secondary objective points?
My take so far has been they'll get those 4 points regardless so just run in big blobs.
Yeh Kronos is really nice in this meta. That being said I actually think shadows by itself is huge. The stratagem helped me out vs Magnus but otherwise its just a suckerpunch to set off soul hunger. I found soul hunger nice but it didn't win me any games. It didn't do anything another couple of biovores wouldn't have achieved.
19 on the stealers is a no brainer, its only a single stealer and I tend to find the stealers die fast, they are a huge target and tend to die every game. Losing 1 genestealer to deny a VP is well worth it.
My list only actually has 5pts for recon. It looks like a no brainer but quite often people don't get all the termagants (because once you get down low you hide them to preserve pts) so you only give up 3 for Recon (both stealers and hormagaunts)
I also didn't lose anything on the hormagaunts really, despite all the talk of them being great for tying up units I find myself using them as the frontline screen and a unit to push up the board for area denial more than charging in and piling deep (my stealers want the double advance more and horms are less reliable with the need for onslaught when its used anyway)
Dynas wrote:
Great questions.
Also good to see that nids can compete against 2 of the top list, Guilliman and escort and Chaos Smite spam. Only other list I would be interested to see if we can hold up is to Astra militarum conscripts.
Reading your after action, it seems like you feel a lot of the units where meh. Would be interested to see how you change the list. Did you feel running 2 hive fleets was worth it? Did you have synapse issues?
Synapse wasn't too huge a problem. Mostly because all the kraken stuff kept dying and the kronos synapse was super survivable. The stealers are largely self sufficient and the horms rarely lived longer than the broodlord so I didn't take any real morale casualties.
pinecone77 wrote:Great batrep! Yep Kronos really paid off, it will surely alter the "meta" not a "must take", but the possability that it can show will haunt psych heavy lists. I guess word is not out yet...charging Magnus towards the Soul Hunger? I am feeling that the old "Dakafex" is not that good, I plan to try out Deathspitter fexen or Scythe+Gun fexen, I think those will still be usable. Too bad you did not have a Miasma Cannon for auto hits.
Congrats on the mighty win!
The Magnus player had no option. He has 6 warp bolters, I had biovores, hive guard, exocrine, venom cannon tyrant, dakkafex and devilgants. He had to come at me hard and fast.
On fexes I just think they are a hybrid unit and suffer for it. Its like the tactical marine problem. Its decent at a bunch of stuff, not amazing at any of it. Versatility is often a curse in 40k.
Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman is not a top list anymore. Marines don't have screens. I'm flatly shocked he did well against 4 storm ravens though. They must have been multi-melta & lascannon, without the assault cannons. Because assault cannons on those ravens would have chunked his face.
The guy running Gulliman came second so it can't be that bad. Also stormravens don't need screens. The stormravens were the perfect loadout to fight me. Stormstrikes, typhoons, ass cannons and hurricanes. All 4 identical.
I played the board and mission not the army. I agree in a straight up fight he destroys me.
Traceoftoxin wrote:@sneggy - Nice reps.
Two comments about your Guilleman game.
1) ". he pops his intercept strategem and nukes him to 1 model." - Can only intercept with infantry units, and even then at -1 to hit. Sounds like a mistake that cost you quite a bit.
2) Obviously I have no idea what the board looked like, so not sure if it was even remotely feasible, but, if you remove all non-fliers, the opponent automatically loses. Some tournaments don't call tabling a full lose, so maybe you didn't do it to keep scoring points for standings. Again, wasn't there, don't know the exact tourney rules or the board, just a musing.
I think you must be rolling -really- poorly with GS. I've had some bad luck with them too, but going off the averages they're basically our best hammer against almost every target. My experience seems to be very similar to yours-despite our different lists-in that once you can get a stealer unit bouncing around inside the enemy lines, it's basically game over. Are you going to keep the GS as kraken?
Despite what everyone on the internet says, many players do not have massive screens. Of those that do, many use them to protect against assaults, but still need to come out to assault themselves, something we're fantastic at countering. We're great at tearing through 20-40 body screens, which is often all it takes to crack into a list.
Tyranids are going to drastically change the meta, and I think we're flexible enough to keep adjusting to whatever the meta becomes.
1) yep, guess he misplayed that. Oh well, heat of battle and all that, I took the victory so no harm, no foul.
2) technically not an auto win on tabling for ITC but I would have if I had. I tried to but that damn culexus at the end had 1 wound and was fleeing from the spore mines trying to bring him down. TBH I never expected to be able to bring Gulliman down so easily so was playing for the objectives not the tabling anyway. It was only around turn 5 I went for total wipe out and just ran out of time.
Yeh my GS are like yo-yos. Some rounds I roll so many 6's I just eradicate whole units. Then I have rounds where I cant roll a 5+ on 40 dice. Fishing for 6's is always swingy statistically but man did I have some horror handfuls of dice at stages. I seemed to save all the good rolls for that hive tyrants invulnerable saves though so I guess it all evens out
GS are staying kraken, I love 3d6 pick the highest, love double advance stratagem.
I also got a lot of use out of falling back (usually behind a wall to avoid overwatch going back in) having the firing line shoot up their target then charging back in to get to swing first again.
I agree Tyranids will help shape the new meta (along with guard conscript spam falling away) and I think the codex has the balance to keep up for a while.
@N.I.B only one other tyranid player at the event and he went 3-2 finishing up somewhere around 10th I think. He was running triple flyrant and a couple of hive crones/harpies.
@gigasnail no problem on the write up and thanks I'm on thetyranidhive just not been active in a while. I'll have to hop over and say hi.
astro_nomicon wrote: So I'm playing around with more or less the models that I have trying to come up with something fairly competitive. What do you all think of this list? Should be fairly straight forward. Horms get in the way and use their pile ins to clog as many gears as possible, two squads of stealers up the board, 1 takes a lictor taxi, Devilgants accompany Trygon and double tap, Tyrants drop in and do what they do. Rippers for scoring objectives. I brought the Kronos detachment for some anti psyker shenanigans, but is it worth it? Also wasnt sure about the Trygon prime but I had some spare points and wasnt sure where to put them. Is this too many stealers? I'd Is the list too one dimensional? Thanks for the Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws
I like your list a lot.
Only thing I would to do improve it is drop the Trygon and one of the flyrants. That should allow you to get a Jormungandr outrider (Mucolids OP) if you replace the Flyrant with a neurothrope and a neurothrope as your Jormungandr HQ. I’d bring the Devilgants in with a ravener squad instead. Saves you even more points (do with those what you will) and gives the Gants a 5+ save, which is SO NICE.
And I think you have enough drops to maybe even use those raveners to redirect a second squad of Stealers if you want, letting you keep all 3 squads safe from an alpha strike if you need to.
Got a 2-day GT this weekend. They're not using CA, but I'm still gonna use my post-CA list, I think. I posted it a bit earlier, but just for posterity I'll do so again.
The GT isn't allowing duplicates of any detachments, so I can't double battalion. With that in mind, I figured I'd try going down a Trygon and up in CP. Even if I have to use 1CP to deliver GS via lictor, I'm up 2.
Swapped Mal for venoms, this should give me a chance to see if they're worth it.
Dropped 1 model off each squad to help with ITC secondaries, and to also free up some points so I could fill the rest of the brigade slots.
Also had to lose a Trygon to fill the brigade.
I think it'll play about the same, though I'm probably going to miss having the second Trygon. The 2-3 extra CP should help me make up the damage in stratagems.
The lictors should make for good objective grabbing units and disruption units. I plan on trying to use them in combo with the big squads in assault, keep them on the edge of enemy units to minimize the amount of swings they take in return, then bounce them out and eat overwatch and such with them. I love lictors in 6/7th just for disruption. I think they're worse than they were, but they'll still fill the same role.
Mucolids are what mucolids are. Maybe they'll pop on something and do some wounds, maybe they won't. At worst they're a 60pt tax for the extra CP. At best, they're a bunch of MW. May be a decent target for metabolic overdrive turns 2+
Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.
So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?
jifel wrote: Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.
So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?
I think it depends on how much AT the rest of your list have, eg Hive Guards, Biovores/Smites(supplementary), Trygon, Genes.
A HVC flyrant with MRC and smite, does quite abit to armor.
I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.
Badablack wrote: I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.
Then you played that wrong. Sporecysts do not daisy chain SiTW. They spread Synapse only.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Got a 2-day GT this weekend. They're not using CA, but I'm still gonna use my post-CA list, I think. I posted it a bit earlier, but just for posterity I'll do so again.
OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.
9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.
Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?
@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.
Dynas wrote: OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.
9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.
Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?
@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.
Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.
Dynas wrote: OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.
9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.
Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?
@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.
Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.
If you are karaken and use opportunistic advance 1cp to dbl advance roll and used metabolic overdrive 1cp it becomes possible on a 4+roll(with 3 dice to choose from) Though it costs 2 CP not a bad way to diliver 9 mortal wounds but unless you have already cleared the chaff it's a bit of a waste on screening units. Might be nice on a 2nd turn or something. (EDIT: need a 4+ roll to get within 3"... over 12" minus 3"= over 6" needed so 4x2=8" for total of 11" getting just over 1" away from opp unit)
Traceoftoxin wrote: Got a 2-day GT this weekend. They're not using CA, but I'm still gonna use my post-CA list, I think. I posted it a bit earlier, but just for posterity I'll do so again.
Why make a Flyrant your warlord? I would chose a Neurothrope and give it One Step Ahead for additional tactical shenanigans.
I generally use the no penalties to shooting (Allows me to advance and fire, or to target dark reapers/alaitoc/rg/alpha legion and fire at full), or full rerolls against a datasheet for my warlord trait. A neurothrope would be a better way to deny warlord, but I don't think I'd get much use out of one step ahead. My neuros generally sit around midfield, more than 6" away from the fighting.
Wow, this just reminded me that in 8th Edition, I've heard that Tyranids are apparently much more fearsome than the stripped-down, de-fanged bucket of fail that the previous Codex turned them into.
Dynas wrote: OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.
9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.
Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?
@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.
Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.
Thats my point. this is a work around. You use the metabolic overdrive to move them and still advance. As long as you move within 3" they explode. With something like Kraken where you can roll 3 advance dice and take the highest you have a good chance of getting them in.
Badablack wrote: I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.
Then you played that wrong. Sporecysts do not daisy chain SiTW. They spread Synapse only.
Sporocyst specifically get the synapse keyword..doesn't that mean it becomes a synaps creature?
I do think the sporocyst need a FAQ that allows them to shoot at enemy units within 1 inch range. Now the enemy unit within 1 inch doesn't prevent them from shooting but that is not the same as allowing the sporocyst to shoot at that specific unit. RAW It can only shoot at other units.
Dynas wrote: OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.
9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.
Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?
@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.
Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.
Thats my point. this is a work around. You use the metabolic overdrive to move them and still advance. As long as you move within 3" they explode. With something like Kraken where you can roll 3 advance dice and take the highest you have a good chance of getting them in.
Outside 12 inch + 3 inch move + 6 inch advance = outside 3 inch. Cannot do this..
Dynas wrote: Aaargh, that damn millimeter. Well, maybe just deploy them on your front line and see if you can speed them across. Looks like a flop. : /
Opportunistic advance lets us turn the 6" advance to 12" so we can if we are karaken
Automatically Appended Next Post: So thinking of using this for our next tourniment 2000pts
Single detachment requirement with optional Fortification network
So the plan is to reserve 10 out of my 20 units leaving as little as possable to alpha strike and using 2 mucilids and 2 ripper swarms to deny good DS positions.
My first turn will cost me 5CP as I Phormone trail my 9 sporemine unit then meta overdive it so it can move/advance then oppertunistic adv to dbl the d6 so I will get within 3" on anything but rolling triple 1's. Of course this will only happen if there is a jucy target if not I keep one lictor and the mines in reserve for the correct oppertunity.
The other 2 CP will be on my Div Gaunts or my have guard depending on need for single minded annihilation dbl fire. They will arrive with the Trygon Prime, 2 Flyrants, at least one lictor(depending on above) and the genestealers out of their nodes and run forward (if opportunistic adv was not used for the mines it will be used here) Keeping 2 Ripper units for obj capping and or linebreaker.
Looks very solid can anyone poke any holes in this?
Badablack wrote: I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.
Then you played that wrong. Sporecysts do not daisy chain SiTW. They spread Synapse only.
Sporocyst specifically get the synapse keyword..doesn't that mean it becomes a synaps creature?
I do think the sporocyst need a FAQ that allows them to shoot at enemy units within 1 inch range. Now the enemy unit within 1 inch doesn't prevent them from shooting but that is not the same as allowing the sporocyst to shoot at that specific unit. RAW It can only shoot at other units.
Double check your datasheets. All the other Synapse creatures have both rules SitW AND synapse. Also they have the synapse key word.
The sporocyst rule "Psychic Resonator" gives the unit the synapse keyword and the synapse special rule. It says nothing about SiTW. The SitW rule, does not mention the word synapse at all.
jifel wrote: Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.
So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?
jifel wrote: Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.
So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?
A lot of people take the devourers because when you mathhammer it out, volume of shots is king in this edition.
d3 shots is pitiful. Strength 9 will help you when shooting T8 targets.
But consider that the expected results versus T8, 3+:
So in the optimal use case for the hvc - a T8 model, where you can really use that strength 9 - the massed shots of the devourer are equivalent. So you're specializing in a high strength weapon that sucks against everything but big bodies, and is only just as good as the devourer in that use case.
If the HVC was a -4 AP then it would be worth it at its current place. D3 shots is pathetic.
BaconCatBug wrote: Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?
The bio plasma cannon is only on the exocrine. It costs the same but the exocrine gets +1 to hit when it doesn't move (switching it from bs4 to bs3)
It's also a heavy weapon, so if the exocrine moves it's actually BS 5+. Plus it only shoots half the number of shots if it moves. So I do have to also question putting a 2xBio-Plasmic Cannon BS4+ in the table. It's a profile you'll only ever use with a stationary exocrine firing at a target with a -1 to hit buff, or once the exocrine has gone down a damage profile.
What that math doesn't consider is variance. IF the HVC wounds at all then it will deal 3, 6 or 9 damage. It is a very swingy weapon while volume of fire is much more consistent. The odds of devourers swinging into dealing 3+ damage is lower than the odds of a HVC dealing 3+ damage. And since dealing 3+ damage is what matters vs T8 targets, then the HVC comes out ahead.
It's basically realizing that the average damage isn't enough, so you look at the odds of doing above average damage.
I don't think you can metabolic overdrive a unit that arrives from reserves. Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?
The bio plasma cannon is only on the exocrine. It costs the same but the exocrine gets +1 to hit when it doesn't move (switching it from bs4 to bs3)
It's also a heavy weapon, so if the exocrine moves it's actually BS 5+. Plus it only shoots half the number of shots if it moves.
So I do have to also question putting a 2xBio-Plasmic Cannon BS4+ in the table. It's a profile you'll only ever use with a stationary exocrine firing at a target with a -1 to hit buff, or once the exocrine has gone down a damage profile.
Yeah, it was a mistake to have the bs4+ in there, I commented on that when I first posted the table.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.
No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.
Marmatag wrote: Sorry I did mathhammer with the index values for HVC. They're just stuck in my brain i guess.
It's 9 -2 3 not 9 -1 d3.
So against T8, 3+, it's expecting 1.78 not 0.89.
Still, would prefer the more generally useful tool. Although i could see how the HVC might have a place in a list.
Well think about it still way. If he has a 250pts t8 thing with 12 wounds and it takes 25pts to remove 1.5 wounds, thats on average of 8 HVC' for 200pts.
Also look at it in a 2nd way, a Lascannon is 25pts for 1 shot only but its D6 vs always 3, on average the HVC does more damage in the long game.
For me the HVC is highly worth it, i tend to take 2 Harpys.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.
No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."
You should try reading the rules before making assumptions about the rules.
Aren't those the rules for arriving from reinforcements? That is different from arriving via whatever rule is on the unit's datasheet. They aren't reinforcements. They're technically not even reserves. They just follow alternate deployment rules as per their datasheet.
Also, the snarky comment is uncalled for. Don't be an ass.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.
No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."
You should try reading the rules before making assumptions about the rules.
Im also inclined to think what they are saying is that even though its the end of the movement phase (but still the movement phase) you can not activate the newly deployed unit to move again with its normal m attribute. The stratagem is clearly an exception to this allowing you to do things you cannot normally do.
Just like pistols, assault, genestealers being able to charge after advancing.... Even though the base rules in all those cases say you cannot.
You can deepstrike and then use a stratagem to move again.
Zimko wrote: Aren't those the rules for arriving from reinforcements? That is different from arriving via whatever rule is on the unit's datasheet. They aren't reinforcements. They're technically not even reserves. They just follow alternate deployment rules as per their datasheet.
Also, the snarky comment is uncalled for. Don't be an ass.
Was not snark, people need to stop thinking they know the rules without reading the rules. I do my best not to comment on a rule without the rule infront of me, because I don't want to make an ass out of myself. Other people don't seem to have this compulsion.
Reserves are reinforcements.
Again.
READ THE RULES.
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed."
Im also inclined to think what they are saying is that even though its the end of the movement phase (but still the movement phase) you can not activate the newly deployed unit to move again with its normal m attribute. The stratagem is clearly an exception to this allowing you to do things you cannot normally do.
Just like pistols, assault, genestealers being able to charge after advancing.... Even though the base rules in all those cases say you cannot.
You can deepstrike and then use a stratagem to move again.
Did you move that unit? No, they spent their entire movement phased "deploying to the battlefield", not moving.
Did that unit arrive as reinforcements? Yes. "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive"
You literally have zero allowance to use the stratagem.
I'd love to use MO after DS on things like mucolids and spore mines, combined with kraken double advance you would basically be spending 2CP for guaranteed MW. This is clearly not intended nor RAW.
Well thank you for pointing out our failings. But it's a pretty honest mistake. The datasheet tells you how to deploy a unit and normally the main rulebook rule is redundant information. In this one particular case though it does appear to matter.
I don't agree that the general rule for reinforcements overrides all other rules. MO doesn't work due to its wording. But other stratagems might work, and psychic abilities that allow movement can work as well. Wouldn't be surprised to see Tau get a Jump-Shoot-Jump stratagem.
Swarmlord clearly can use his ability on deepstrikes, for instance.
A few things I want to point out with on the topic of Metabolic Overdrive (MO):
Whilst deploying does prevent the unit from moving for the rest of the turn, this can be overridden by other abilities such as Hive Commander, suggesting that you can use MO.
On the other hand, the trigger for MO is “when a tyranids unit in you army moves”. As the unit has not moved, it has arrived from reinforcements, it can’t be selected for the stratagem.
On the other other hand, arriving from reinforcements counts as moving which might be enough to trigger it, but that is a very power-gamey interpretation and I wouldn’t feel comfortable using it.
Zimko wrote: Well thank you for pointing out our failings. But it's a pretty honest mistake. The datasheet tells you how to deploy a unit and normally the main rulebook rule is redundant information. In this one particular case though it does appear to matter.
It was not about being a dick and "pointing out our failings". If someone points out you may have a rule incorrectly, instead of just saying, "No, I'm right!", you should always say, "Oh, let me check". We all make mistakes, no one knows the rules 100%, not even those of us who visit YMDC daily and invest a lot of time in tournaments and discussions about tournaments. If you feel like you're being attacked when someone points out you may be doing something wrong, that's a sure sign that you're far too invested in your belief. This applies to life in general.
Dealing with people who refuse to approach the game with the second attitude rather than the first is insanely frustrating.
There’s an argument that some may make that Warptime, being FAQ’d to be permissible on a unit that arrived from Reserve, puts a question mark on the cited RAW.
After all, the core rules say you can’t move any more DURING THE TURN THEY ARRIVE - and Warptime allows them to move in the psychic phase... of the turn they arrive.
Now, the reason this precedent does not apply IMO is that the passage goes on to say THEIR ENTIRE MOVEMENT PHASE IS USED IN DEPLOYING TO THE BATTLEFIELD.
So, whilst there has been a de facto rewrite of the ‘no more moving in the whole turn’ by the specific example of Warptime, there’s not yet a precedent - though an FAQ may change that - enabling Metabolic Overdrive to change the fact that the unit’s movement phase has concluded by arriving from reserve.
8ed is a decent enough rules system with user-unfriendly formatting that gets rid of a whole chapter of USRs in favor of frontloaded intro play that requires twice as much back and forth looking up things to play beyond that.
Timeshadow wrote: So the swarmlord can make a unit move again after deepstrike why can't the stratigum?
Because Swarmlord does his ability in the Shooting phase. Whereas the Strategem takes place in the movement phase, and DS occurs at the end of the movement phase.
Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a
unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
A: Yes.
Why not just look at the faqs?
Its clear that GW intends us to be able to move in otherways after DSing if there is a way to do so.
the Reinforcement rules are stated it takes up your full "movement Phase" not movement for the remainder of the game, it even goes to say "Acts normally for the resr of the turn" aka after the movement phase.
Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.
Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".
So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.
This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.
For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.
Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".
So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.
This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.
For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.
Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.
Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".
So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.
This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.
For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.
Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.
I mean, that's generally how I play, but this actually seems pretty cut and dry. The RAW without the FAQ is kind of ambiguous, but as people pointed out, swarmlord + warptime, and the FAQ, make it pretty clear that you aren't disallowed from moving again this turn. We have to treat the unit as having moved. If you say, "I can move this again" and you say, "Wait, that arrived from reserves, are you sure it moved?" and I answer anything but, "yes, it moved" then I am not treating it as if it had moved.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Okay, so we have precedent to ignore the limitation on reinforcements arriving.
Next question - Did the unit that arrived from reinforcements move? It is clearly described as having NOT moved, but, "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes".
So, I suppose that I was wrong, and you in fact CAN use Metabolic Overdrive on a unit that has arrived from reinforcements. If you are treating it as having moved, then it qualifies for the stratagem.
This is a massive, massive, massive deal. I do not think this is RAI, and if it survives the first FAQ, then we have a crazy power on our hands.
For 90/60 pts, we can drop 9 spore mines or 3 mucolids 12.1" from something like magnus. We activate metabolic overdrive and move them again, using kraken to double our advance. We need a 4+ on one of 3d6 to make it within 3" (3 would get us 3.1" away), then in the charge phase we expode for ~8 (Will probably lose a spore mine to MO) or ~6 mortal wounds to which the opponent has essentially no recourse.
Remember, when in doubt on the interpretation of a rule, don't take the one that favors you.
I mean, that's generally how I play, but this actually seems pretty cut and dry. The RAW without the FAQ is kind of ambiguous, but as people pointed out, swarmlord + warptime, and the FAQ, make it pretty clear that you aren't disallowed from moving again this turn. We have to treat the unit as having moved. If you say, "I can move this again" and you say, "Wait, that arrived from reserves, are you sure it moved?" and I answer anything but, "yes, it moved" then I am not treating it as if it had moved.
There are too many ambiguos points there for my taste.
Metabolic drive is used "During the movement phase". Reinforcements arrive "At the end of the movement phase", this is already a red light for me. This is not MtG where you can do stuff during the end of a phase, when you declare that the movement phase is done, then that's it, you can no longer do anything that happens "During the movement phase", all those things must happen before all the "At the end of the movement phase" events. Then the stratagem also says "After moving a Tyranids unit". Saying that something counts as being moved, is far from it saying that it has moved.
If the stratagem had read "At the end of the movement phase you can move a unit again" i could see it being doable, but like this i would call the TO on anyone trying to pull this stuff.
Yeah, there is a lot of precedence in the FAQ's saying that "at the end of the movement phase" means the end. That is, no more movement phase stuff - unless you can do that stuff in other phases, like the psychic phase or shooting phase.
Instead, i would like to discuss implant attack, because that one could actually be an hidden gem.
Am i reading this right in that we don't need an unsaved wounds, but just a wound? So if i charge with my hormagaunts on 4 different units i can then pop the stratagem to inflict a MW on those units on a 2+? It seems like so, but this means that when we attack we must roll the last save separately, so that we now if the last model did save a wound or was killed by the last attack.
Spoletta wrote: Instead, i would like to discuss implant attack, because that one could actually be an hidden gem.
Am i reading this right in that we don't need an unsaved wounds, but just a wound? So if i charge with my hormagaunts on 4 different units i can then pop the stratagem to inflict a MW on those units on a 2+? It seems like so, but this means that when we attack we must roll the last save separately, so that we now if the last model did save a wound or was killed by the last attack.
My reading was the same, though I think many people will disagree. And yeah, it will come down to whether the last wound was saved or not.
Even using it for unsaved wounds, I've used it to finish cawl and tiggy with GS. It's a very solid stratagem at only 1 pt.
The first list looks like a variation of the recent GT winning nid list (though with no hideable hq for the kraken detachment) so as long as you’re as good a general as the player of the original list I’m sure you’ll do fine. Looks like you’re using the malanthrope at 90 points though? He will be 140 soon. Personally I don’t like the split fleet format but obviously it worked for one guy at least.
The second list looks like that same netlist but with Swarmlord shoved in. He has no protection and no delivery method so he will die first turn against most opponents. Build your list around Swarmlord or don’t take him imo.
if your playing with enough terrain it is possible to keep swarmlord from getting shot off turn one. Just make sure to keep some rippers or something near him to stop any deep striking smites from wrecking him.
Also he is only 300 points of a 2000 point army. If your opponent manages to drop enough firepower to kill him then you wont need his double move to kill whatever it is that got him in turn.
Meiotic Spores however can use Metabolic Overdrive and deal mortal wounds in the first round without retaliation. They are deployed in the same way as Alpha Legion Infiltration Stratagem.
This is of course just valid, if you get the first game turn. But it is certainly worth the try for 3x18 points.
Marmatag wrote: Sorry I did mathhammer with the index values for HVC. They're just stuck in my brain i guess.
It's 9 -2 3 not 9 -1 d3.
So against T8, 3+, it's expecting 1.78 not 0.89.
Still, would prefer the more generally useful tool. Although i could see how the HVC might have a place in a list.
Well think about it still way. If he has a 250pts t8 thing with 12 wounds and it takes 25pts to remove 1.5 wounds, thats on average of 8 HVC' for 200pts.
Also look at it in a 2nd way, a Lascannon is 25pts for 1 shot only but its D6 vs always 3, on average the HVC does more damage in the long game.
For me the HVC is highly worth it, i tend to take 2 Harpys.
For those having this discussion I thought the following numbers might prove useful.
All vs T8 3+ Firer is always BS3
Twin Devourers (12 shots):
Average Wounds: 0.89 (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 fail to save, 12 shots)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 5%
Twin Death Spitters (6 shots)
Average Wounds: 0.67 (2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail to save, 6 shots)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 2%
Heavy Venom Cannon (d3 Shots)
Average Wounds: 1.78 (2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 fail to save, 2 shots, 3 damage)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 42%
Lascannon (1 Shot)
Average Wounds: 1.29 (2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 5/6 to save, 1 shots, 3.5 damage)
Probability to do 3 or more wounds: 25%
Against T7/3+
Devourers: Avg. W 0.89/ p3+ 5%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 1/ p3+ 6%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 1.78/ p3+ 42%
Lascannon: Avg. W 1.29/ p3+ 25%
Against T4/3+/1W
Devourers: Avg. W 1.78/ p3+ 26%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 1.33/ p3+ 13%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 0.75/ p3+ 0.1%
Lascannon: Avg. W 0.46/ p3+ 0%
Against T4/2+/2W
Devourers: Avg. W 0.89/ p2+ 22%
Death Spitters: Avg. W 0.89/ p2+ 22%
Heavy Venom Cannon: Avg. W 1.11/ p2+ 40%
Lascannon: Avg. W 0.74/ p2+ 30%
I changed to looking at 2+ wounds on things with 2 wounds as killing one often is what matters. Killing 3 MEQ seemed like a reasonable gauge of effectiveness too. Any other things you'd like to see these kinds of comparisons for? I think they tell us a lot more than average damage does.
bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.
Astmeister wrote: That is a very good comparison, thank you.
For me this means that you should definitely take things like HVCs to hurt multi wound models.
It's certainly a solid weapon for that purpose, personally, I have smites, biovores and hive guard that I use vs hard targets, so I tend to stick to devourer tyrants (for reasons that should also be obvious from the numbers), but I can certainly see a build relying on massed HVCs as anti tank being viable.
Eihnlazer wrote: bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.
I was surprised by that too, I had a feeling devourers were a touch better against soft targets, but the difference is much bigger than I expected.
Astmeister wrote: That is a very good comparison, thank you.
For me this means that you should definitely take things like HVCs to hurt multi wound models.
It's certainly a solid weapon for that purpose, personally, I have smites, biovores and hive guard that I use vs hard targets, so I tend to stick to devourer tyrants (for reasons that should also be obvious from the numbers), but I can certainly see a build relying on massed HVCs as anti tank being viable.
Eihnlazer wrote: bit disappointed devourers are better than deathspitters againgst most targets. Deathspitters really only outperform againgst T7 and T6 models I guess. I like the extra range on them, but ideally youd be in smite range anyway.
I was surprised by that too, I had a feeling devourers were a touch better against soft targets, but the difference is much bigger than I expected.
Now that I think about it, the Tyrannofex is certainly much better than taking multiple HVC Carnifex. It costs less than 2 Fex with HVC and does more damage to tanks.
The HVC is probably only worth it on Harpies or a Tyrant, if you want to get him some shooting weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a sidenote: Does anybody field Hive Guard with Schock Canons? I find their disadvantages to be not worth taking them. Even when coming out of a Jormungandr hole....
Yep Meiotic Spore Mines are broken with Kraken. 3" + 3D6 Run move two times and delete a unit or your choice (since they have Fly too) with loads of mortal wounds
Eihnlazer wrote: shock cannons are only better against T8 vehicles. Not a lot of those.
Shock cannons perform better than impalers on pretty much all vehicles and cost much less. Impalers strenght lies in the range, anti cover and no LOS, but for raw damage on vehicles you go shockcannons.
In particular shock cannons inflict 50% more damage on T8 3+ and 31% more on T7 3+. Points per wound they are actually better than lascannon devs.
Okay, let's apply some meta to that - Shock Cannon is great against T8 vehicles and vehicles with invulns and good against T7 vehicles. What vehicles are we facing? I main Chaos and my Land Raider seems overcosted for delivering shock troops, if you're playing me you don't need to worry about that. But my Spartan, that's another story, and I'm not convinced that SCHG would worry me all that much. I'd either go after another flank or just tank the hits to deliver my zerks. My friend likes her THSSSW dread, and that *is* going to be rushing at you, so SC is perfect there. Leman Russ, Predators? They can do the business without getting close to the shockers.
It seems situational and perhaps not as widely useful as a T-fex.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Did lascannons get ap4 at some point and I missed it? My book says ap3.
No they are still -3
Whoops! I don't really play imperial used to Dark Eldar or Nids, will fix the probabilities.
We all make mistakes. The numbers just looked off.
The HVC is a pretty efficient weapon, and HVC+2DS carnifex are close enough to tyrannos in AT efficiency and durability per point that I think their mobility actually makes them a more attractive option.
We all make mistakes. The numbers just looked off.
The HVC is a pretty efficient weapon, and HVC+2DS carnifex are close enough to tyrannos in AT efficiency and durability per point that I think their mobility actually makes them a more attractive option.
They certainly aren't bad, but they don't have the consistency OR spike damage of the stationary t-fex. The mobility might be enough to make up the difference though. I'd certainly consider either.
Basically, it looks like our AT gunners are pretty well balanced, and the main thing is how well they work with your army as a whole, rather than which one is currently undercosted and worth building an army around as afterthoughts. Can't really complain about that
I've been messing about with a little code in my spare time at work, it should spit out average damage and the probability of causing x or more wounds (or a more complete table) based on parameters entered. Got variable numbers of shots in there already, need to add variable damage (won't take too long) and should probably add invulns at some point. Reckon I have an hour or two more work on it, however, I have no idea how to share it. It's ORACLE SQL code as that is what I had to hand to write in. If anyone wants it I can send the code across, its only 75 lines now, probably 100 when finished. Output looks like this:
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.5 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 18%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 70%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 70%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 88%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 89%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 68%"
Would it be useful to output the guns stats as well or would that get too busy?
I played a local RTT, then a few games the next day, for a total of 5 games.
I ran Kraken + Kronos. My goal was to find out how tyranofexes actually played on the table, and to try out the gaunt bomb.
My Kraken battalion was: Broodlord, Neurothrope, Neurothrope,19 stealer, 19 stealer, 30 gants with devourers, trygon. My Kronos was a patrol: Neurothrope, Rupturefex, Rupturefex, 6 impaler Hive Guard.
I played against Poxwalkers+ Magus, Wolves, IG armored company, and IG Shadowsword in reserve. I switched the Hive Guard for a 3rd Rupturefex against the armored company, and played two games against the Shadowsword, one with 3 'fexes, one with 2 'fexes and the Hive Guard.
I really like the Rupturefexes, I really like the Hive Guard, and I think the Kronos gunline is really strong, BUT, getting value out of any of them requires a major investment in points. The gant bomb was the same way: major impact on the game, but a big points sink.
I find myself struggling with hard decisions in list building now: do I commit to a strong gunline for 1/3-1/2 of my points? Do I take a weaker Hive Fleet to let me run Raveners instead of the Tyrgon and save points? If I do, is there a way to make 3 Hive Fleets work to maximize rules efficiency without crippling me on CP? This struggle is something I enjoy-it speaks to a well designed Codex with decent internal balance.
I see a lot off different ways to use Kronos, and I think the vast majority of Tyranid builds are going to want to do it. The ability to strongly impact two major parts of the game (shut down key spells + long range shooting) is really useful.
Yeah, still "early days" but I think matched play will shake out to: Krakon speed rush, Behemoth DS, Kronos Gunline, and Jormongandr Gunline+DS. Then there might be "mix and match", but the benefits of Brigades are so high that most will use them.
Throughts? The second list basically gives up 11 Termagaunts, a Lictor and a Genestealer to switch one Flyrant for the Swarmlord.
Hey look my list!
If your going to run almost a carbon copy of my GT list (which, sigh I guess was inevitable someone would) then understand the concept.
Swarmlord is deadweight in this list. The object is to protect the gunline and distract your opponent with the combat units whilst retaining the combat ability to bother superior gunlines. With all your deployment and movement options you don’t need a 300pt double move.
Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.
jifel wrote: Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.
I think the majority of the time, the second unit will play out better, however, with a list completely built around null deployment, the swarmlord opens up guaranteed charges in a way nothing else in our army can.
So, to say he's dead weight 100% of the time is a complete fallacy. A second unit of GS deep striking is not the same as a swarmlord allowing a single unit to move after deep striking 9-14 (Or 10-20)" and then freely charge anything.
You can absolutely build a viable list around it, and we had a good set of battle reports just in the last few pages where someone did basically exactly that.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I think the majority of the time, the second unit will play out better, however, with a list completely built around null deployment, the swarmlord opens up guaranteed charges in a way nothing else in our army can.
So, to say he's dead weight 100% of the time is a complete fallacy. A second unit of GS deep striking is not the same as a swarmlord allowing a single unit to move after deep striking 9-14 (Or 10-20)" and then freely charge anything.
You can absolutely build a viable list around it, and we had a good set of battle reports just in the last few pages where someone did basically exactly that.
Yes, the first turn charge is key, but the flexibility of an army with the SL that man make use of this ability turn after turn is huge imo.
jifel wrote: Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.
Is this a common opinion?
It's not a common opinion, but it's not exactly rare either. This isn't the word of god or an absolute truth, but I believe that the Swarmlord with delivery cost is just way too prohibitive. You can build a list to make the Swarmlord more efficient than in others, but I frankly do not believe that any of our best lists will include him. I'll also bet money that the best Nids list at LVO will not include the Swarmlord. My "problem" with the Swarmlord is that I can take two Behemoth Flyrants with AG and MRC/Devourers for less than the Swarmlord in his pod. And frankly we have good delivery systems for most of our melee units that we would want to get in there anyways. Kraken Stealers are plenty fast, and AG/Behemoth gives us very nice odds when on a few units.
Now to be fair, I am 100% with sneggy in that the best lists will be a gunline element with lots of units that can tie up the enemy and prevent them from effectively engaging our guns, and just enough melee to outdo an opposing gunline. I was running a similar concept in index (although I did sneak in some Guard allies to help the gunline part...) and had a lot of fun with it. I think pure Nids can do it now. Swarmlord may have a place in a less gunline oriented list that tries to get all up in your opponents grill, but I personally think that too many armies have scout/push back units to really make that list good.
jifel wrote: Honestly the Swarmlord is dead weight in just about every Nid list. I have yet to find a situation where taking the Swarmlord to move a unit is better than just taking multiple units to send in.
Is this a common opinion?
It's not a common opinion, but it's not exactly rare either. This isn't the word of god or an absolute truth, but I believe that the Swarmlord with delivery cost is just way too prohibitive. You can build a list to make the Swarmlord more efficient than in others, but I frankly do not believe that any of our best lists will include him. I'll also bet money that the best Nids list at LVO will not include the Swarmlord. My "problem" with the Swarmlord is that I can take two Behemoth Flyrants with AG and MRC/Devourers for less than the Swarmlord in his pod. And frankly we have good delivery systems for most of our melee units that we would want to get in there anyways. Kraken Stealers are plenty fast, and AG/Behemoth gives us very nice odds when on a few units.
Now to be fair, I am 100% with sneggy in that the best lists will be a gunline element with lots of units that can tie up the enemy and prevent them from effectively engaging our guns, and just enough melee to outdo an opposing gunline. I was running a similar concept in index (although I did sneak in some Guard allies to help the gunline part...) and had a lot of fun with it. I think pure Nids can do it now. Swarmlord may have a place in a less gunline oriented list that tries to get all up in your opponents grill, but I personally think that too many armies have scout/push back units to really make that list good.
Yep, came to the same conclusion.
Null Deploy Gunline, with deepstriking flyrants and using the genestealers to push back/tie up/chase down opponent line.
I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(
CDShaddock wrote: I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?
Never take just one Tervigon, as it is both too easy to kill as an individual and the replenishment isn't as unmanageable for the opponent (with 2 or more Tervigons they have to wipe the Termagant unit or it will more or less come back next turn). Not sure if the Lictor + 'stealer combo is worth it when most of your army is dedicated to shooting. I'd probably look towards using those points for more guns instead. While I actually like Venomthropes with Jorumgandr as front-line shrouding work, for the backfield you are probably better off with a Malanthrope even with the cost hike.
CDShaddock wrote: Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(
Why sell it? Stripping paint doesn't take too much effort if your main concern is having the Hive Fleet match. Plus, Kronos is mostly dark colors save for the carapace, but red is a very strong color so it should cover up any stained plastic well.
CDShaddock wrote: I was thinking of using Kronos with 90 termagants and a tervigon for a recycling screen for my gun line. This would protect two rupturefexs and a unit of 6 hiveguard (for double shoot start) a lictor as a GS taxi for backfield pressure and a neuron plus venomthropes for backfield synapse and alpha protection. Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well as soon as I sell my Leviathan painted army :(
Low strength will kill your Venomthropes and lascannons will kill off the one Tervigon on t1 then they’ll charge into your termies. You need hormagaunts or another screen and use the double shooting Strat on one of your units of termies. Thatsmy thought
We have banned forgeworld in my group so malanthropes are out.
I was thinking using the stealers/lictor as a combo objective grabber/melee distraction to buy time for guns to come to bear. I suppose I could use those points for another tervigon.
I could replace the lictor and venomthropes for a unit of 30 hormagants. Would this leave too susceptible to first turn shooting alpha? My termagants are the screen. I don't really care if they die so long as my shooting is effective.
If I strip everything down more core looks like:
(2) Tervigon
(90) fleshborer termagants
(6) hive guard
(2) rupture fex
This gives me some regenerating screen that takes up 270 sq inches of board space in termagants. Minimum of 24 shots highly efficient shots for around 1500 points. Even with 90 gants this seems kinda elite. Where would go from here? Or should I just try out jormungundir for more resilience?
We have banned forgeworld in my group so malanthropes are out.
I was thinking using the stealers/lictor as a combo objective grabber/melee distraction to buy time for guns to come to bear. I suppose I could use those points for another tervigon.
I could replace the lictor and venomthropes for a unit of 30 hormagants. Would this leave too susceptible to first turn shooting alpha? My termagants are the screen. I don't really care if they die so long as my shooting is effective.
If I strip everything down more core looks like:
(2) Tervigon
(90) fleshborer termagants
(6) hive guard
(2) rupture fex
This gives me some regenerating screen that takes up 270 sq inches of board space in termagants. Minimum of 24 shots highly efficient shots for around 1500 points. Even with 90 gants this seems kinda elite. Where would go from here? Or should I just try out jormungundir for more resilience?
I ran something similar recently, with the two rupture fexes and the 6 hive guard. I used Kronos. The reroll 1's is too good to pass up with the gunline. I suggest that you add a Neurothrope and 3 Biovores, make a Spearhead with the Hive Guard, 'fexes, Biovores, and Neurothrope, and use a Jormungundir battalion for the Tervigons and 'gaunts. That costs you about 200 points.
This much shooting isn't going to win you games by itself. The big guns will get focused down, figure you will lose one-two monsters per turn but kill one-two major targets a turn. You will need to play the termagants aggressively, using them to grab objectives and charge things once they have screened away any deep strikes/first turn charges. You might want to think about a unit of 'stealers, they will attract a lot of fire, keeping it off the gaunts, and do some damage. You also might want to think about a second Neurothrope-the Tervigons are prone to being killed, leaving your units without synapse.
The portal GT in CT. Something like 40 people, LOTS of high ranking players. Will post more tomorrow.
First rd vs DG, guy who took 2nd at that last tourney I posted about. No morty dg with deredo and levi, 3 bloat drones, typhus, marines and the crazy flamer chars in a rhino, a dp, poxwalkers and nurglings. He came to me and it was a bloodbath. Ended with him having one drone left, I think. 19-3.
2nd rd vs sm, patrick m the guy I faced rd 2 last tourney... this time he had 1 less razorback, but celestine and sister squad. We werent using CA, otherwise his list would have been just about 2200! Another bloodbath, but I failed onslaught turn 1 after double advancing horms 4" from his screens... with a 6 or 7" charge I would have locked 3/5 razorbacks, tac squad and the sisters.... instead I spent all game rolling like gak. My frustration led me to make a few costly mistakes, though in the end I pulled out 10/19 pts. I failed 3x psychic tests even using cp to reroll, and perilsed 3 times. I took 9 wounds from perils. I failed every reserves charge. I made 2/8 flyrant invulns. It was punishing.
3rd rd vs csm. I didnt recognize the player. He had 4 jp lords, 4x10 cultists, 3 spawn, and 7x3 oblits. He made me take first turn. I grabbed the relic and shoved it back behind my lines. He dropped allin on a flabk and wiped all but 1 and 5 horms. Charged the last 5 and wiped them, AND got my 2 near jnfestation nodes. I used assauly hijinks and lucky reserves charges to deal with oblits from that turn on. Won 19-1.
Tomorrow I face Dallas Rapoport, who took 16th at nova open last year. We're currently tied for 7th, tho I had a slightly stronger strength of schedule. He's running bugs, but I'm not sure what his list is. I hate fighting bugs, not because I don't like my chances, just because it's always messy as hell. If I can pull 2 big wins I should end up near the top, there are 3 players with 3 wins, and 3 with 2win/1draw. Not in a terrible position atm.
As for my list... the extra CP have been huge. 2x1 biovore are borderline useless, need more to get mileage out of them, imo. Lictors exist solely to taxi, grab obj, and get overwatched. Mucolids have mostly just been area denial and bullet sponges. Venomthropes are straight up garbage, but their buff is still really important.
Good luck tomorrow. Definitely let us know how it goes, and if you can see if you can get details on the other top-end Nid lists. I saw that Nanavati is also running lists, would be very interested in seeing what he is running.
jifel wrote: Good luck tomorrow. Definitely let us know how it goes, and if you can see if you can get details on the other top-end Nid lists. I saw that Nanavati is also running lists, would be very interested in seeing what he is running.
I think I'm running the most horde-y Tyranid list. I've seen a jormungandr list with 6 hive guard and 6 biovores, a 60+ GS list, someone with 1-2 pods and a dimacheron, etc. There's the kronos player I played at the last tourney, he mentioned he's running a Tyrannofex this time. It's a pretty interesting spread.
There are a LOT of superheavies floating around. The top 7 I think is something like; Imperium/AM (tied), Cadian, Alaitoc, SM/CSM (tied), Nids, Nids (tied).
Chapter aproved abberant with power hammers delivered with a primus and the new genestealer cult stratagem (1 command point.)
Roll 3 dice. Primus allows you to re-roll the dice. 6 dice, hoping to get a 5 or 6. 5 = move 1d6. 6 = full move. The charge.
Each Abberant w. powerhammer is 33 points.
Abberant WS3+ S5 A2.
Power hammer -1 to hit SX2 AP-3 3
You can bring 8 aberants in a group. +1 to hit from Primus.
Is this something to include in a tyranid army? 1 Primus with 8 Abberants is 340 points. Very good chances of alpha strike, or at least deliver the payload intact. Big chanches of 16 S10 3 damage attacks. Should obliterate most big targets.
Much more if you can land might from beyond on them from a 73 point magus. +1 attack and +1 S. (I amunsure if this makes S11 or S12 powe mauls.)
If the opponent has any singel target worth more then 340 points they easaly make their point back. And your opponent needs to deal with them the following round.
Remember you need to have the cult in a separate detachment to get access to CA, so factor in the extra units you’d have to take to make a full detachment. I recommend 2 magi, one to cast might from beyond and one to cast mass hypnosis (remember most superheavies can shoot in combat so you cant send something in first to soak up the overwatch)
C4790M wrote: Remember you need to have the cult in a separate detachment to get access to CA, so factor in the extra units you’d have to take to make a full detachment. I recommend 2 magi, one to cast might from beyond and one to cast mass hypnosis (remember most superheavies can shoot in combat so you cant send something in first to soak up the overwatch)
Yes the easiest way seems to be a 2 Maguses, 1 Primus, 8 aberants. Until smite gets nerfed this can also be quite powerfull. People already seem to warm up to Neuronthropes. Maguses gives us more psykick diversety. Note that might from beyond is a one trick pony as it only targets genstealer cult units. But it would give aberants one more attack, and one more S. The Primus could also take the new relic giving them one more S. I am unsure if this makes the hammers S12 or S14. (Anybody know?.)
Multipliers come before addition, so they would hit S12 with both buffs in effect. Note though, the GSC relic (Icon of the Cult Ascendant) is for Iconwards only.
Mind Control is extremely powerful if your opponent happens to have a Lord of War bristling with guns like a Baneblade or Stormsurge handy. I have had games where the opponent's own models ended up causing more damage to their forces via Mind Control than my own shooting and a couple games were won more or less due to the power. Mass Hypnosis is also good and more support minded. It helps all elements of the army so it is a good power to bring as an ally.
In terms of GSC psyker powers, mass hypnosis is by far the best and what you should be using if you’re just running magi for smite spam. If you’re running purestrains or haberrants with them, might from beyond is a good choice. Mind control is hilarious but generally not worth it unless you know there is a superheavy you can control, and even then it can be difficult to get with cast range (12”) due to screens. Personally I’d rank the powers as mass hypnosis>might from beyond>mind control. I usually run 3 magi though, so I get all 3 power
Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.
On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.
It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.
Seriously. Building this thing out of individual elements in photoshop is time consuming. Especially because I need to type in all the data to make sure it fits and then hide it so I can make it into a form that can be shared here with everyone. Maybe it will inspire someone from another army to make their armys version. But I am not going to try to fit other peoples crap onto 2 pages lol.
Rd 4 was against the above with nids. He had Kraken battalion with malanthrope, swarmlord, 3x19 GS, ~27 horms. Kronos something with neuro, 2x6 hive guard, lictor, mawloc. I played so, so, so poorly. I made numerous terrible mistakes, and he punished me for them. Even the last turn, I forgot to fall back a genestealer, and that alone would have made it a 15-14 loss (or draw, I think draws were a 4 point margin for this), and if I had moved one biovore even 1" earlier in the game, I could have scored another pt and gotten 15-15. But yeah, basically I screened completely wrong and lost both horm squads turn 1 to a GS charge. I played hard to a flank and forced him to fight me with 1 stealer squad at a time. I managed to kill all 3 stealer squads around bottom of 4 (or maybe 5, need pics to refresh memory), and then set out with what I had left to try to score. I was pretty beat up by then, and the game ended with a 10 wound flyrant infront of like 11 hive guard, a 4 wound swarmlord and neurothrope. My backfield was a lictor, 2 neurothropes, 2 biovores. Really rough game, ended on bottom of 6, 17-12.
Rd 7 was against Mordians, Tempestus and Raven Guard. He had 3 plasma command squads, 30 conscripts, 4 astropaths, a chapter master, LT, 3 razorbacks, 3 dev squads, some infantry squads, valkyrie, 2 scout squads. I surprisingly had less drops and got first turn. I made a MASSIVE mistake and used smite on a scout squad I was going to use to springboard into his army. He ended up failing morale by the 2 he lost to smite, and it left me out in the open to get hosed. To his credit, he spent a CP to try to fail an armor save, and lost his sgt on purpose to force the morale failure. The mordian stratagem and FRSRF together are pretty punishing for such a cheap unit. I ended up baiting him to bring a lot of his reserves onto a basically null side of the field by spreading out a large horm unit and making it seem menacing. I overloaded one flank and managed to get stealers into his army. LOS blocking terrain let 2 lictors deploy out of LOS then eat an astropath, tie up a razorback, then get shot to bits. Biovores tossed mines all over. I ended up having to eat two whole turns at the end of the game because of the death clock system we used. The last 30 minutes are always split, 15 min for each player. As soon as your turn ends, the opponent's time starts. Problem is, for me I use all 4 phases, including the assault phase in which your opponent is also actively involved, so my turns HAVE to take longer. He didn't have much movement to do, and could just straight shoot. So, I ended up running out of my allocation of time way before him and he managed to tie up the primary on me. Without time we knew I would've really put the pain on him, he managed to avoid taking assault phase damage from stealers on an infantry squad, a trygon on a razorback, and a flyrants shooting into a key heavy support unit. Basically what should have been an 18-3 victory ended up as a 14-7 victory. Call it good time management on his part I suppose, but I think it's just a bad system that punishes armies that utilize all phases of the game. He recovered well with the time and managed to draw the primary, though was too far behind to draw the secondary.
Overall I ended the tourney 9th overall, tho tied 10th in straight battle points with Dallas Rapoport who beat me 17-12 rd 4. I think I outscored Dallas on either overall actual mission points (reported points for placements were tiered base on major win/loss) or it may have been my prodigious 11/40 painting score (My army is mostly 2 base coats and unbased, atm). I lucked out and won one of the 3 'losers' raffles (Every time you lost you got put into a raffle, more losses=more entries), so combined with the 9th overall prize I got a little bit more than I paid for entry and a sweet Kharn kit.
The Portal did a pretty good job running it, I enjoyed the missions a lot, though I thought the death clock was terrible. The prize support was bonkers, I overheard someone say GW supplied 1200 or something of kit value in prize support, and the portal gave out a lot in gift cards. I would HIGHLY recommend anyone come out for it next year. As someone who grew up in the region, there's not a ton of cool tourist gak in the area, but the airport is maybe 30-40 min away, and hotels aren't big city expensive in the area.
Will do a more in depth post at some point along this week, and get what pics I took up. I think overall I took more pics, but it's hard to stay consistent when you're playing fast, and games only speed up as they go on.
C4790M wrote: Remember you need to have the cult in a separate detachment to get access to CA, so factor in the extra units you’d have to take to make a full detachment. I recommend 2 magi, one to cast might from beyond and one to cast mass hypnosis (remember most superheavies can shoot in combat so you cant send something in first to soak up the overwatch)
Yes the easiest way seems to be a 2 Maguses, 1 Primus, 8 aberants. Until smite gets nerfed this can also be quite powerfull. People already seem to warm up to Neuronthropes. Maguses gives us more psykick diversety. Note that might from beyond is a one trick pony as it only targets genstealer cult units. But it would give aberants one more attack, and one more S. The Primus could also take the new relic giving them one more S. I am unsure if this makes the hammers S12 or S14. (Anybody know?.)
Both mass hypnosis and mind controll seems good.
Not to draw out the GSC digression - I agree this isn’t the thread for it - but I’ll just clarify how bonuses and multipliers work per the designers’ commentary: UNIT strength multipliers, then UNIT strength addition/subtraction, then WEAPON strength multipliers, then WEAPON strength addition/subtraction.
Mission: ITC Champions Scenario 1: Seize Ground My Secondaries: Kingslayer Celestine, Recon and Old School
His Secondaries: Kingslayer Swarmlord, Reaper, Headhunter
Random Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Deployment: I deploy first and I finished deploying first! 3 units of Rippers, 2 Trygons w/ Genestealers and Devgaunts and the flyrant are all in reserves. I deploy the Swarmlord and Malanthrope out of sight. Old One Eye is next to them. He deploys the Manticores well behind everything else and spreads them out. Redemptor and Dread deploy on his right flank. Celestine on his left. Razorbacks and all the other character near the middle. We roll off for first turn and I win! Thank goodness. I'd rather not take a full round of manticores to the Swarmlord before getting a chance to use his hive commander (though it turns out, with Malanthrope, 5+ to hit on manticores isn't so scarry).
Pregame thoughts: I've played this gentleman before and he's a fairly competitive player. Today he brought a more casual list but Hammer and Anvil deployment made me cringe. Luckily I got first turn and Celestine is in a good position for me to alpha.
Top Turn 1 Movement: I use Metabolic Overdrive to move the Malanthrope to the right side, roughly 12" from his screen. I then use Opportunistic Advance on the Swarmlord to move within 3" of the Malanthrope. Old One Eye, a Neurothrope and gants move up on the left flank. My warlord Neuro moves up behind Swarmlord. Rippers arrive in the middle to be within 24" of his Rune Priest. Both Trygons with the payloads arrive within 3" of the Malanthrope. The Flyrant also arrives in front of the Malanthrope (Flyrant is now -2 to hit).
Psychic: I don't do much here. I smite a couple infantry and attempt to use Onslaught on the Swarmlord but it fails. I use the Horror on a Razorback.
Shooting: I wipe out the screening Infantry with devgaunts. (1 point for Old School First Blood) I don't bother shooting them again because their only viable target is a Razorback. I use Swarmlord's Hive Commander to move the Genestealers up to Celestine and the Company Commander.
Charge/Fight: Genestealers charge and kill both Celestine and Company Commander. (3 points for kingslayer.) They then consolidate into a Razorback. I screwed this up. I forgot that Overrun required they not be within 3" of another unit, so I was forced to consolidate into the Razorback. What I wanted to do was Overrun and then Adrenaline Surge into at least one of the Manticores to prevent them from shooting and to surround it to prevent it from falling back. Welp, live an learn. Celestine resurrects and pops up in my back left corner, where I only have 1 unit of Termagants holding 2 objectives.
Bottom Turn 1 Movement: Greyhunters deploy. 1 unit moves towards my Genestealers. Another moves to Devgants. The Razorback that I locked with Genestealers (also happens to be the one I used the Horror on... that was a waste) falls back next to one of his Manticores. Celestine moves up to an objective and prepares to kill my termagants. Bjorn, and Culexus move towards my Genestealers, ready to charge if shooting doesn't kill them.
Psychic: Rune Priest tries to cast Storm Caller to grant him lots of rerolls, but my Rippers are there to use The Deepest Shadow and it fails to go off.
Shooting: All the manticores shoot at the Swarmlord. When the dust clears, the Swarmlord has only taken 4 wounds, giving him 1 point for Kingslayer. Malanthrope's aura and 4++ saves his hide. Bolters and Assault Cannons fired at the Genestealers until they were dead (2 points for Reaper). The rest fired at the Devgants who lost about 10 models. Celestine kills a bunch of gants but there is still 1 alive. He's within synapse and sitting on an objective and too far away for Celestine to charge. The Redemptor and Las dread discover that OOE now has 9 wounds and can't shoot him. Instead they try to shoot at a Trygon who survives thanks to Malanthrope. Their bolters shoot some Termagants.
Charge/Fight: Bjorn finds himself with nothing to charge. My opponent debates about whether to charge 5 greyhunters into my Devgants. He decides not to because he thinks he might lose a couple to overwatch, and the Flyrant is close enough to heroic intervention if his charge roll is low. I'm not sure I agree with his logic but I'm not going to complain.
Turn 1 score Me: 3 Kingslayer, 1 Recon, 1 Old School, 3 Primary; total: 8
His: 1 Kingslayer, 2 Reaper, 3 Primary (Thanks to Celestine, he owned more objectives); total: 6
Well that was a decent turn for me. I made a couple mistakes but nothing too critical. Punking Celestine felt good, though now I need to deal with her in my back field... for which I have a plan.
Top Turn 2 Movement: Old One Eye makes a 180 and heads straight for Celestine. I was going to have him make his way to the Redemptor but decided the Redemptor wasn't much of a threat. Instead, he's going to take care of Celestine. Devgants move up and get out of the Trygon's way. Trygon moves up to charge a razorback. The other Trygon and Swarmlord move up to charge Bjorn. My Termagant screen on the left flank moves up with a Neurothrope to smite the Redemptor. The Flyrant moves up but stays within 6" of Swarmlord.
Psychic: I smite some grey hunters. I use the Horror on another Razorback. I use Catalyst on the screening gants on the left flank.
Shooting: Devgants wipe out the Grey Hunters that shook their chainswords fearfully at them last turn and kill a couple from the unit next to Bjorn. Swarmlord sends the Flyrant on a head hunting mission. The Flryant hurdles Grey Hunter and Razorbacks to be right next to the Rune Priest.
Charge/Assault Trygon and Swarmlord charge Bjorn and the Culexus. I decide to attack with the Trygon first, since he has the better chance of killing Bjorn out right if I use Voracious Appetite strategem to reroll wounds, and if the Swarmlord attacks first and fails, my opponent will use a strategem to kill the Trygon. It worked out nicely. The Trygon gets 3 wounds thru and does 11 damage with 3d6. He only passes 3 of his FNPs. That gives me a point for Old School (slay the warlord). The Swarmlord and Culexus bounce off each other. Old One Eye charges Celestine... and proceeds to do a sad 6 damage (she has 7 wounds)... but I remembered the strategem Implant Attack and finished her off with it. Max points for Kingslayer with that. The Flyrant charges the Rune Priest and kills him. He then consolidates into both a Manticore AND a Razorback (the same razorback that fell back from the Genestealers. That thing never got a chance to shoot).
Bottom Turn 2 At this point my opponent is just trying to get some points. He shoots up a unit of 10 gaunts for Reaper but fails to do anything else. We're out of time so we call it here. It was going to be a route anyway. I get Recon and Line Breaker for this turn.
Final Score: Tyranids 16, Space Wolves 9. Tyranid Victory!
Mission: ITC Champions Scenario 3: Nexus Control My Secondaries: Headhunter, Recon, Death by a Thousand Cuts
His Secondaries: Reaper, Big Game Hunter, Death by a Thousand Cuts
Random Deployment: Front Line Assault
Deployment: Again I deploy the first unit. I deploy with the usual stuff in reserves. I use the Termagants and 1 unit of Rippers on the board to make sure he has no place to Deep Strike behind me if he gets first turn. I again deploy Swarmlord, Malanthrope and Old One Eye centrally with Neurothropes to their flank. I deployed my Warlord Neurothrope (who's warlord trait I was excited to put to use) on the side where his Wave Serpent is deployed. He deploys all the Spiritseers and 2 units of 3 Dark Reapers AND Yvaine inside the Wave Serpent and puts it in the back corner. He deploys his Skyrunner Farseer and Farseer next to the Wave Serpent. He finishes deploying first, and infiltrates Rangers all over the place. 2 units are on the castle walls. 3 units are in the ruins screening his Wave Serpent and 1 unit is in the forest on an objective. The 8x Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears are all in reserves.
He wins the roll off to go first... but gives me the first turn.
(forgot to take a picture of deployment)
Pregame thoughts: I got first turn again! This fella clearly had no idea what was about to hit him. He should have put his 8x Dark Reapers on the board so that he could shoot up my Genestealers when they arrived... but he didn't. And now I'm going to have a huge lunch.
Top Turn 1 Movement: I double move the Malanthrope to the left to prepare to do what I did last game. I move the Swarmlord just behind the wall but close enough to be in range of Genestealers.Old One Eye and a small screen move up the middle to the crack in the wall but they stay just shy of the opening. I lave my back termagants spread out on the objective to prevent deep strikers from landing back there. Devgant bomb is dropped on my left most flank within range of the Malanthrope. Genestealer bomb is dropped between the Malanethrope and Swarmlord. The Flyrant lands behind Old One Eye to try and kill the Rangers on the wall. I deep Strike a unit of Rippers in the back right corner of my opponent's deployment zone to get Recon.
Psychic: Flyrant and a Neurothrope use Smite and Psychic Scream to remove the Rangers on the wall. I used Catalyst on the Genestealers.
Shooting: Devgants do their thing. They split fire to remove 2 of the Ranger units between the Genestealers and the Solitaire/Farseer/WaveSerpent. The other Ranger unit is too far back to shoot. The Swarmlord gives his command and the Genestealers march into the ruins. The Flyrant shot at the other unit of Rangers on the wall and kills 3.
Charge/Fight Genestealers triple charge a unit of Rangers, the Solitaire and the Farseer. They wipe the Rangers and deal a wound each to the Solitaire and Farseer. The Solitaire and Farseer fight back but only kill a few Genestealers. I use Adrenaline Surge to fight again and dump most of my attacks into the Solitaire to kill him. The Farseer takes another wound. It's not worth using Implant Attack to deal another cause he's just going to run out of reach anyway. I kill 5 units for 1 point to Death of a thousand cuts. 1 point for Recon and 1 point for Head Hunter.
Bottom Turn 1 Movement: Everything comes out of the Wave Serpent. Farseer retreats to his deployment edge. 8x Dark Reapers arrive in the forest in the middle behind Rangers. Shining Spears couldn't quite fit in front of the Devgants thanks to Genestealers being there, but Warp Spiders could so he puts his Warp Spiders there and keeps the Shining Spears in reserves. Swooping Hawks arrive in my back right corner to try and mess with me but I'm not too concerned about them.
Psychic: He attempts to use Gaze on Dark Reapers but it fails to go off. Smites kill some Genestealers.
Shooting: Warp Spiders shoot at the Devgants and kill about 12 of them. Most of the Dark Reapers shoot into the Genestealers to wipe them out. 2 points for Reaper. Some Reapers shoot into my Rippers that were threating to charge into his backfield next turn (The ones I deep struck in his corner).
Charge/Fight Nothing happens here.
Turn 1 Score Me: 1 Headhunter, 1 Recon, 1 Death by Thousand Cuts, 4 Primary. Total: 7
Him: 2 Reaper, 2 Primary. Total: 4
Definitely should reduce size of Genestealers to 19 for ITC. They did their job though. They shocked the hell out of my opponent and forced him to spend all his resources to kill. I now have the rest of my army close enough to jump down his throat.
(There used to be 3 units of 5 Rangers in these ruins, as well as a Solitaire)
Top Turn 2 Movement: Everybody closes in. Everything I want to kill is in a nice tight space in the corner except for the large 8x Dark Reapers. I use Metabolic Overdrive on my Warlord Neurothrope to move him into the ruins within range of all the psychers. Since he's stuck in the corner, there's no way for them to move outside his aura. One Trygon moves towards the fleeing Wave Serpent while also sitting on an objective. The other Trygon moves in on the Warp Spiders. Devgants move beside him. Swarmlord moves in on the Warp Spiders as well. Flyrant moves up within 6" of swarmlord. I have both my remaining Rippers arrive on the right flank to prevent anymore deep strikers arriving over there since I'm a little weak on that side. I put one of those units close to the Swooping Hawks. My other Neurothrope moves towards the remaining to Rangers in the wall. Old One Eye and Termagants move up to engage the Rangers in the forest.
Psychic: A Neurothrope smites the 2 remaining Rangers. Warlord Neurothrope fails to cast anything. Swarmlord and Flyrant smite a few Warp Spiders.
Shooting: Remaining Devgants split fire into the 2 units of 3 Dark Reapers, killing 2 in each. I then order them to shoot again to kill one of the Exarchs. Swarmlord orders the Flyrant to move again and he prepares to charge Yvaine.
Charge/Fight: Flyrant charges Yvaine but doesn't kill her. Trygon and Devgants charge Warp Spiders and kills all but the exarch who then dies to morale. Old One Eye and his Termagant screen charge Rangers in the forest. I activate Old One Eye first who wipes them out. I then active the Termagants to pile in and consolidate into the 8x Dark Reapers. Rippers charge Swooping Hawks but don't do anything. Swarmlord isn't able to charge anything but he doesn't really need to. 3 units died so I get a point for Death by a Thousand Cuts. I also get a point for Recon.
Bottom of Turn 2 Movement: Everything in the back corner falls back or runs away as best they can but they aren't able to escape my Warlord's aura. Shining Spears finally arrive near Yvaine after she ran from the Flyrant. 8x Dark Reapers use a strategem to retreat and still be able to shoot this turn but they can't get a shot on Old One Eye because of how I wrapped him with Termagants. (1 Termagants is still in range of synapse). Swooping Hawks flail uselessly trying to kill Rippers and Termagants in my back field. A Neurothrope is there to smite them later if I need to.
Psychic: Yvaine uses Gaze on Shining Spear so they can move right up to my Trygon and Warlord Neurothrope. A Warlock attempts to use Conceal and fails, then dies to 2 mortal wounds (giving me another point for Headhunter). Farseer attempts Fortune but I stop it, dealing a mortal wound to him. A couple smites got off dealing mortal wounds to my Trygon.
Shooting: Wave Serpent attempt to remove the Termagant screen from Old One Eye but isn't able to kill enough. 8x Dark Reapers instead shoot at the Flyrant who manages to survive with 3 wounds. Shining Spears fire into the Trygon and Neurothrope, dealing a few to the Trygon and 2 to the Neurothrope.
Charge/Fight: Shining Spears kill the Trygon but fail to do anything to the Neurothrope. They also charge Swarmlord but he weathers them easily. The Swarmlord fights back and kills a few of them.
Scores Me: 1 Headhunter, 1 Recon, 1 Death by Thousand Cuts 4 Primary. Running Total: 14
Him: 1 Big Game, 1 Primary. Running Total: 7
By this point we're running short on time but it's pretty clear what is going to happen. We talk turn 3 out and I get another 4 for Primary, 1 for Headhunter, 1 for Death by Thousand Cuts and 1 for Recon. He gets 1 for Primary.
Final Score: Tyranids: 21, Ynarri: 8. Tyranids Victory!
Game 3 vs World Eaters, Alpha Legion and Morty
Spoiler:
Opponent's List Battalion Alpha Legion - Sorcerer w/ Jump Pack, Death Hex, Force Sword, Mark of Slaanesh (MoS), Prescience
- Sorcerer w/ Jump Pack, Death Hex, Force Axe, MoS, Warptime
- 10x Cultists w/ MoS and 1 Flamer
- 10x Cultists w/ MoS and 1 Flamer
- 19x Cultists w/ MoS and 1 Flamer
Battalion World Eaters - Dark Apostle w/ Brass Collar of Borghaster (can deny and causes mortal wounds), Mark of Khorne (MoK)
- Exalted Champion w/ Axe of Blind Fury, MoK, Power Axe
- 9x Khorne Berserkers w/ Icon or Wrath, 8x Chainswords and Chainaxes, Champion w/ Power Fist
- 9x Khorne Berserkers w/ Icon or Wrath, 8x Chainswords and Chainaxes, Champion w/ Power Fist
- 9x Khorne Berserkers w/ Icon or Wrath, 8x Chainswords and Chainaxes, Champion w/ Power Fist
- Chaos Rhino w/ 2x Combi Bolters, MoK - Chaos Rhino w/ 2x Combi Bolters, MoK - Chaos Rhino w/ 2x Combi Bolters, MoK Super Heavy Auxiliary Death Guard - Mortarion w/ Gift of Contagion, Miasma of Pestilence and Plague Wind
Mission: ITC Champions Scenario 5: Crucible of Champions My Secondaries: Headhunter, Kingslayer (Mortarion), Recon
His Secondaries: Recon, Reaper, Headhunter
Random Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Deployment: When we rolled Hammer and Anvil we both groaned. There wasn't much to our deployment. I put everything in reserves that I usually do, keeping one unit of Rippers on the board to keep anything from deep striking behind me. I put OOE, Swarmlord and Malanthrope in the front middle, with a Kronos Neurothrope on each of their flank as close to the deployment line as possible while still having Termagants in front of them. He put Morty front and center. Sorcerers and Oblits started in reserves. 2 Rhinos of Berserkers started on my right flank, 1 on the left. 19 Cultists stood on his back objective. The other two cultists units spread out on his back right and left flank to deny deep strike. He wins the roll off to go first.
Pregame Thoughts: This is going to be a meat grinder. With Hammer and Anvil, the center walls are in an awkward place for my models to move around. I hope I can shut down Warp Time with the Kronos strat. He almost has to be within 24" of a Neurothrope for Morty to have a chance at close combat. Everything depends on killing Morty without losing too much to handle the Khorne Berserkers when they emerge. It's going to be interesting.
Top Turn 1 Movement: Morty moves to the center though he makes sure to remain outside of 18" of the Neurothropes. He brings in the Warp Time sorcerer behind Morty but it's still within 24" of my Neurothrope. He isn't familiar enough with Kronos to know exactly what the Strategem does. He thought he only needed to be outside of 18" to be safe. Obliterators and the other Sorcerer drop in the forest on my left flank. Everything else waits for my deep strikers. He's not used to having to play defensively. Usually he rushes the enemy but he's worried about my reserves. He wants to counter charge when they arrive.
Psychic: Morty uses the -1 to hit power. I deny Plague Wind. I use the Kronos strategem to stop Warp Time (yay). He casts prescience on the Obliterators.
Shooting: Obliterators attempt to shoot the Swarmlord (opponent was going to shoot Old One Eye but just learned that he is now 9 wounds). Their shots bounce off his invulnerable save.
Charge/Fight: No charges.
Wow, so nothing died. Which means I just need to kill 1 unit to be ahead on the Primary by 2.
Bottom Turn 1 Movement: Ok, now's my chance. Morty is exposed though the walls in the middle make charging difficult for my Swarmlord and Old One Eye. I'll only get one of them in there with Hive Commander. I decide to send in the Swarmlord first since he might survive whatever trickery Morty has for melee (This is my first time fighting Morty). Old One Eye moves up to prepare for a turn 2 charge. I decide to go all in. Malanthrope moves to the right where there's space for a drop zone. I drop in both Trygons and their payloads. I place the Devgants such that they completely surround their Trygon and prevent any movement past them. I plan for them to die to Berzerkers. I just hope they can absorb enough for the Trygon to survive. Genestealers arrive within 10" of Morty. Flyrant arrives on my left flank to deal with the Obliterators and Sorcerer. Warlord Neurothrope stay behind the wall but moves within 18" of Morty.
Psychic: We both have a lot of deny we can do. I manage to get Catalyst on the Swarmlord. Flyrant smites and psychic screams the Obliterators, killing 1. Nothing else goes off.
Shooting: I split fire the Devgants. Those that can see Morty (it's a tight space over there, you'll see in the picture below) shoot at him, the rest shoot at the 10x Cultists. They wipe out the cultists giving me the 1 kill for this round that is worth 2 points. They deal 2 wounds to Morty. I double tap them to deal 2 more wounds to Morty. Flyrant shoots at Obliterators and does nothing. Swarmlord orders himself to move again towards Morty.
Charge/Fight: Genestealers and and Swarmlord charge Morty. Flyrant fails to charge Obliterators. And here I screw up. I was scared of what Morty could do in melee to the Swarmlord, so i decided to attack first with the Swarmlord. Swarmlord dealt 3 damage (Morty down to 11 wounds). He of course interrupts and attacks Genestealers. This is where I learn he gets a bajillion attacks if he wants to kill infantry. He kills 15 Genestealers, leaving only the Acid Maw genestealers. One is still holding the middle objective so there's that at least. Those 5 genestealers attack and deal 2 more damage (at 9 now). Apparently Morty doesn't degrade until he's down to 8 wounds... which is weird because everything else degrades when at half... /shrug. Of course I forget about Implant Attacks, doh.
Turn 2 Scores Me: 2 for Kingslayer (8 wounds to Morty), 1 for Recon, 3 for Primary (We tied on objectives) Running Total: 6
Him: 1 for Primary. Running Total: 1
Not a bad first turn... but here comes the pain.
Top Turn 2 Movement: All the Berzerkers come out of their safe boxes. 2 units approach my Devgants. 1 unit approaches Swarmlord. Morty stays in combat since that's where he wants to be anyway and his shooting sucks. Rhinos on the right move up to grab an objective and ram stuff. Cultists stay where they are preventing deep strikes (I still have rippers) and holding an objective. Warp Time sorcerer runs back towards the Exalted Champions who just jumped out of a Rhino. He's not going to do anything while within 24" of a Kronos unit. Prescience sorcerer runs behind berzerkers.
Psychic: Since Mr Warp Time ran away, I decide to use the Kronos Strategem to shut down the -1 hit power on Morty. In doing so, I deal 2 Mortal Wounds to him bringing him down a damage bracket (yesss, 6 wounds left). He uses the Miasma power and kills 2 genestealers. Swarmlord saves it with Catalyst. I deny Prescience and Smite.
Shooting: Obliterators deal 4 wounds to my Flyrant. A few gants died to pistols.
Charge/Fight: 2 units of Berzerkers crash into 30 devgants and overwatch kills 1.(he also declares Trygon as target)... and I forgot about the Caustic Blood strategem. Damn. 1 unit of Berzerkers charges Swarmlord. That unit fights twice and kills Swarmlord on the second round. The other two units have to use 3 of their 4 fights to kill all of the Termagants before they can reach the Trygon. The Power Fist wiffs and the rest do only a couple wounds to the Trygon. In return, Trygon kills 3 Berzerkers. Morty kills Genestealers.
Bottom Turn 2 Movement: I move and advance Old One Eye into charge range of Morty. I fallback the one Trygon to charge again a unit of zerkers. (yay Kraken) I move my other Trygon to charge the other unit of zerkers on that flank. Malanthrope moves towards objective. Neurothropes move a little to make Morty closest target but stays out of sight behind the wall with termagants wrapped around them. Flyrant moves up to be next to Obliterators but also close enough to attempt a long charge on Morty. I bring in 2 units of Rippers way in his back corner to ensure I get Recon. They don't have a prayer of removing 19 cultists with a flamer from his objective.
Psychic: Neurothropes tries to use Onslaught on OOE... and gets denied with an 11. Well gak. OOE can't charge now. I use a couple smites to deal 3 more wounds to Morty (3 left). Flyrant puts on more wounds on the Obliterators and kills another. Catalyst gets denied.
Shooting: Flyrant's shooting bounces off of Morty. Trygons manage to kill a zerker.
Charge/Fight: Trygons charge 1 unit of zerkers each. Flyrant charges obliterators and Morty but can only reach obliterator. OOE is left sucking his thumb 6 inches from Morty since Onslaught failed. I attack with a Trygon first and kill all but 3 zerkers in that unit. The other wounded Trygon only kills a couple, leaving about 6 zerkers in that unit. In return the 3 zerkers do nothing to the unwounded Trygon, and the wounded Trygon drops a couple more wounds. He's now at half. The Flryant finishes off the Obliterators.
Turn 2 Scores Me: Recon 1, Kingslayer 1, Primary 3. Running Total: 12
Him: Recon 1, Headhunter 1, Reaper 4, Primary 3. Running Total: 10
Ouch. He caught up there but Morty is almost dead. Unfortunately Old One Eye is not in a good spot. He has an almost full strength zerker unit and 2 smaller units. He also has more objectives. I'm going to need to retake the middle objective and take the left one, kill Morty and hopefully kill some zerkers. Surprisingly we still have about 40 minutes in the round. We're both moving pretty fast.
Top Turn 3 Movement: Morty moves a little to get out of the zerker's way. The full unit of zerkers moves towards the middle objective to charge the unwounded Trygon who is still fighting 3 zerkers. Warp Time Sorcerer and Axe of Blind Fury Exalted Champion move to charge the wounded Trygon. Cultists move up to try and take the left objective from me. Rhinos surround right side objective.
Psychic: By this point I'm out of command points. Morty is free to cast whatever he wants. But I do deny the -1 to hit power. His cloud thing deals 2 wounds to OOE and kills 2 of his own zerkers. He also did some damage to the Flyrant. I deny Warp Time on the Exalted Champion.
Shooting: Nothing to report here. Some gants died from cultist fire I think.
Charge/fight: Zerkers charge unwounded trygon. They wipe him out but he takes 2 with him from Death Throws. A few are able to get close enough to attack the Malanthrope. He survives with 4 wounds left. Those zerkers are now sitting on the middle objective. Morty charges OOE. He deals 8 wounds with -2 AP... and OOE passes 5 of them. We're both shocked that OOE survived. In return, OOE demolishes the last 3 wounds on Morty. Morty explodes killing more zerkers and dealing a wound to OOE (3 wounds left) and 3 to my Flyrant. His Exalted Champion fails to charge my Trygon without warp time, but the Sorcerer is able to charge. He has a force axe but fails to wound the Trygon. His 6 remaining zerkers also fail to kill it. In response, my Trygon kills his sorcerer.
Bottom Turn 3 Movement: Old One Eye moves to charge the remaining sorcerer and a Rhino on my left flank. Flyrant moves to be within 3" of the center objective. Neurothropes decide it's time to be on the offensive. They move on top of the wall and make the middle zerkers their closest targets. There aren't many left after all the explosions. I know my Trygon on the right side is a lost cause. He can't retreat anyway. Termagants and rippers move on top of the left objective creating a 3" bubble. I run my malanthrope back behind the wall.
Psychic: Neuros finish off the middle zerkers. Flyrant uses Smite and Psychic Scream to kill the Dark Apostle who had showed up at some point. Flyrant also perils and took some more wounds. At this point he has 1 wound left but is holding the middle objective.
Shooting: Meh
Charge/Fight:OOE charges and kills the last sorcerer and destroys the Rhino. The last Trygon finally dies.
End of Game We quickly talk out Turn 4. I give him another point for headhunter for killing the Flyrant with his zerkers. He'll get 2 more for Primary. I'll get my 4th Recon and 2 for Primary.
FInal tally: Tyrands 25, Chaos 17. Tyranids Win!
I ended up getting 2nd place due to points (One of the other Ynnari players was also undefeated) and winning a copy of Chapter Approved, neat. For my first run with the codex, I made some mistakes with the strategems. There were places I could have used one but forgot (like Caustic Blood on the Devgants with they were charged by 18 zerkers.). Having 20 Genestealers instead of 19 meant a pretty easy 2 points for every opponent. I need to cut 1 of them. Conveniently, Malanthrope is going up by 50 points so I'm going to cut 1 Genestealer and reduce the devgants to 25. It was a fun day and I played against good people. A majority of the players there are competitive players that travel a lot for GTs so I was happy to have the challenge.
I think Tyranids are meta changing. We're so mobile that a simple screen isn't enough to prevent us from attacking something valuable. Swarmlord is an incredible force multiplier and fairly easy to keep alive for the critical first turn when the terrain has plenty of LOS blocking like in ITC. With a Malanthrope, even 3 manticores can't kill him. Kronos is anti meta right now. As long as psychers are being heavily used, having a small detachment of Kronos is a huge plus. For me i chose to take a cheap Battalion for the CP.
Awesome! Yeah Caustic Blood is a "go to" vs Morty, and Zerkers. I agree that we are a "meta" changing force. I look forward to lots of victories for our beloved Hive Mind! Nice list also!
Got a 2vs2 tournament coming up, in januari (1000p each player/2000p team).
- No armylist/detachment limits,
- Regular matched play,
- Each player got his own warlord
- Each player start with the basic 3 command points.
- Players cannot benefit from each other (psychic powers, reroll bubble's etc..) but can cast the same powers as their teammate / use the same stratagems etc.
I'am going to try to persuade my teammate to play this:
PLAYER 1:
FORTIFICATION DETACHMENT (Jormungandr)
- sporocyst with deathspitters
- sporocyst with deathspitters
- sporocyst with deathspitters
FORTIFICATION DETACHMENT (Jormungandr)
- sporocyst with deathspitters
- sporocyst with deathspitters
- sporocyst with deathspitters
AUXILIARY SUPPORT DETACHMENT
1x GSC- Magus (mass hypnosis)
AUXILIARY SUPPORT DETACHMENT
1x Astra militarum platoon commander (warlord with grand strategist + relic for generating command points)
PLAYER 2: the exact same list!! Double trouble!
Neurothropes, biovores, rippers, platoon commanders deploy and 12 sporocysts deploy in the field (9 inch from enemy units) at the start of turn 1. Magus uses the cult ambush.
Neurothropes + Magus combined gives us 4 psychic powers to drop the enemy units 'to hit'. 2 platoon commanders can keep generating command points.
I did a few tests and it's really weird to play against. Enemy armies really need to make sure the sporocysts cannot pick up momentum but for that the need take down as many sporocysts as possible. First round it's very likely to lose 2 sporocyst but to take down a third one you need a lot of shooting and/or a decent close combat unit. After that the remaining 10 sporocyst start producing 30 spore bombs or 10x3 wound mucolid bombs, Biovores start shooting spore mines and psykers take down the 'to hits'. I could double the neurothropes movement with the stratagem to make sure it can cast the horror first turn and also reroll the cult ambush roll to get the magus as close as possible.
The enemy doesn't want the sporocyst to shoot the spore node (9 inch) because then it really starts to produce a lot of mines.
I'ts not always needed to deploy the sporocyst aggressive. Staying out of close combat range and deploy mid-field or a particular flank could also be enough. As long as the deathspitters can keep spitting and mines can float forward.
I'am making a sporocyst conversion and reproduce it with a mold. Already got enough biovores/spore mines/mucolid bombs to pull this of. I really got to try this!
The list is really crazy and looks very funny.
However, I doubt that you will really have a lot of actual fun at the tournament. The lists have nothing to do with an "army" anymore...
Astmeister wrote: The list is really crazy and looks very funny.
However, I doubt that you will really have a lot of actual fun at the tournament. The lists have nothing to do with an "army" anymore...
I think you underestimate the tactics it still involves with placement. It's funny in a way, that it pulls enemy armies out of their comfort zone and forces them to act in a different matter. Also still need to take objectives and look at the end game, so I could be moving my biovores forward. I have been playing against big astra militarum armies with manticores and/or basilisks, deep striking plasma units and in what way is that a tactical army? Adding Celestine and torpedo it forward to die, doesn't really make it a 'diverse tactical army', now does it.
You also don't need to be Stephen Hawking's to move 3 x 20 genestealers down an enemies throat.
Astmeister wrote: The list is really crazy and looks very funny.
However, I doubt that you will really have a lot of actual fun at the tournament. The lists have nothing to do with an "army" anymore...
I think you underestimate the tactics it still involves with placement. It's funny in a way, that it pulls enemy armies out of their comfort zone and forces them to act in a different matter. Also still need to take objectives and look at the end game, so I could be moving my biovores forward. I have been playing against big astra militarum armies with manticores and/or basilisks, deep striking plasma units and in what way is that a tactical army? Adding Celestine and torpedo it forward to die, doesn't really make it a 'diverse tactical army', now does it.
You also don't need to be Stephen Hawking's to move 3 x 20 genestealers down an enemies throat.
Well I was also not promoting one of the armies you are talking about with mass GS or imperial gunlines. My definition of a fun game always involves an actual army that you are playing. It might be that something like 10 Flyrants as an army play super tactically challenging, but imho it is more rewarding to play something more TAC, where you really have small, middle and big bugs alike.
However, if you have fun with the tactical decisions of placing X Sporocysts, firing all game and then moving 4 Biovores in the last turn... go ahead!
Astmeister wrote: The list is really crazy and looks very funny.
However, I doubt that you will really have a lot of actual fun at the tournament. The lists have nothing to do with an "army" anymore...
I think you underestimate the tactics it still involves with placement. It's funny in a way, that it pulls enemy armies out of their comfort zone and forces them to act in a different matter. Also still need to take objectives and look at the end game, so I could be moving my biovores forward. I have been playing against big astra militarum armies with manticores and/or basilisks, deep striking plasma units and in what way is that a tactical army? Adding Celestine and torpedo it forward to die, doesn't really make it a 'diverse tactical army', now does it.
You also don't need to be Stephen Hawking's to move 3 x 20 genestealers down an enemies throat.
Well I was also not promoting one of the armies you are talking about with mass GS or imperial gunlines. My definition of a fun game always involves an actual army that you are playing. It might be that something like 10 Flyrants as an army play super tactically challenging, but imho it is more rewarding to play something more TAC, where you really have small, middle and big bugs alike.
However, if you have fun with the tactical decisions of placing X Sporocysts, firing all game and then moving 4 Biovores in the last turn... go ahead!
I actually found his list fun, it would be really fun/neat to play a list like that, something completely different.
I wouldnt have used IG, I would have gone all nids, Sporecyst with GS's.
amazing..........Whats the point of even having pheromone trail now? You cant use it on genestealers or broodlords. You cant use it on units placed below with jorm trait. You cant place units any other units in reserve normally.
Broodlord (a genestealer) cant lurk with his buddies.
Spore field isn't free anymore (makes it a useless strat).
Stating that it doesnt affect Stealers is kinda crippling, but whatever. Happy they clarified a lot of the spore mine stuff, sad that I dont have a reason to use lictors anymore. Still, they answered a ton of the questions I had so this is good.
It's basically only useful for endless swarm... So it's useless. I'm sure they intended it to be fluffy and cool by combining with endless swarm but for matches play it's absolutely worthless.
Astmeister wrote: Well I was also not promoting one of the armies you are talking about with mass GS or imperial gunlines. My definition of a fun game always involves an actual army that you are playing. It might be that something like 10 Flyrants as an army play super tactically challenging, but imho it is more rewarding to play something more TAC, where you really have small, middle and big bugs alike.
However, if you have fun with the tactical decisions of placing X Sporocysts, firing all game and then moving 4 Biovores in the last turn... go ahead!
To each its own. I do understand the appeal of playing a 'bit of everything' list ...
"That's what you are referring at because TAC is not the same...10 flying hive tyrants can be considered TAC"
...but at tournaments it's not going to work if you are going for first place. I'am playing at a 'no limit' tournament and I could be facing a lot of over the top lists. I also never knew the appeal of bringing 4+ imperial knights at 7th edition but some players find that appealing. I really see the fun if my armylist could make those kind of army lists sweat.
Eihnlazer wrote: amazing..........Whats the point of even having pheromone trail now? You cant use it on genestealers or broodlords. You cant use it on units placed below with jorm trait. You cant place units any other units in reserve normally.
Broodlord (a genestealer) cant lurk with his buddies.
Spore field isn't free anymore (makes it a useless strat).
I think sporefield is very good against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and the like, who can be placed just before the battle begins. Because you can put the spores BEFORE the "infiltrators" are placed.
However units of Meiotic Spores could do this without spending points on Reinforcements and CP.
Astmeister wrote: Well I was also not promoting one of the armies you are talking about with mass GS or imperial gunlines. My definition of a fun game always involves an actual army that you are playing. It might be that something like 10 Flyrants as an army play super tactically challenging, but imho it is more rewarding to play something more TAC, where you really have small, middle and big bugs alike.
However, if you have fun with the tactical decisions of placing X Sporocysts, firing all game and then moving 4 Biovores in the last turn... go ahead!
To each its own. I do understand the appeal of playing a 'bit of everything' list ...
"That's what you are referring at because TAC is not the same...10 flying hive tyrants can be considered TAC"
...but at tournaments it's not going to work if you are going for first place. I'am playing at a 'no limit' tournament and I could be facing a lot of over the top lists. I also never knew the appeal of bringing 4+ imperial knights at 7th edition but some players find that appealing. I really see the fun if my armylist could make those kind of army lists sweat.
I agree.
For me personally tournaments were always about having fun and not about getting first place. If I wanted to get first place, I would have to swap for the best army currently available.
Actually I had the most fun in very close matches, which ended as a draw.
But I can see the fun in making the opponent sweat with a very crazy army list.
Amishprn86 wrote: I wouldnt have used IG, I would have gone all nids, Sporecyst with GS's.
It's possible for us to gain back command points on a 5+ for each command point used for each player!
Lets say that are opponents got a battalion each + both got the basic 3 command points = 12 command points total. This means that me and my buddy each get average 4 command points if our opponents use them all 12! That's worth the 20 point platoon commander and -1 command point imo.
I agree.
For me personally tournaments were always about having fun and not about getting first place. If I wanted to get first place, I would have to swap for the best army currently available.
Actually I had the most fun in very close matches, which ended as a draw.
But I can see the fun in making the opponent sweat with a very crazy army list.
I want to have fun and play a tactical game that get's me first place. But I also sometimes like weird lists that trow people of their game. For example: deploying 6 sporocysts close to each other and facing magnus. Magnus could do a mean smite but if he kills a sporocyst in close combat then the other 5 produce 15 spore mines and let them explode in his face. So thats 15+ mortal wounds. I like to see my opponent struggle with his first instinct to simply torpedo magnus forward. A lot of players find it really hard to switch tactics and fight the first impuls.
Would you be willing to let your genestealers wait for 2 turns and take deathspitter shots before assaulting? Could be a better tactic but are you capable of doing that?
Not really tournament suitable, but Pheremone Trail is still really nice in any missions that have the Sustained Assault rule in effect. Normally any units that get replaced by Sustained Assault have to walk in on their table edge, so having the option of dropping them further up the field for 1 command point is rather useful since they will be able to contribute immediately.
Overall not a bad FAQ, though it did limit a lot of the shenanigans one could do.
By the by, they also updated the Grey knights psychic channeling rule so that its "Roll one extra D6 and discard the lowest" so that our deepest shadow strat doesn't completely negate it.
That sucks about pheromone trail. I ordered 2 more lictors which haven't come in yet. Going to cancel that, GW just lost a sell.
Glad they clarified they "declare a charge" on Jorm. That hurts them a bit. But not stacking cover, that really hurts.
GSC got hit with a DENY. Looks like they will be a micro-faction, kind of sucks for them.
Edit: Broodlords can't come in Infestation nodes, that sucks
Also the Metabolic overdrive/Onslaught combo is no more.
Clarity on this cannot double advance in the same phase. It says it modifies the move characteristic by the advance amount, so it appears to mean you cannot roll the Advance dice twice in the same phase. So if you roll crap, your stuck with that. Am it understanding correctly?
Edit 2: Sucks that Scything Talons of Tyran don't give rerolls of 1 even though they are sycthing talons....
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 4 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
Cheap brigades are dead.
Lictors lost all their usefulness IMO. Probably time to rework the list.
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
I think you are right. Liktors are still good to unlock a Brigade and you can try to assassinate weak characters. Besides they are quite good for assaulting good shooting units and deny them their next shooting phase. If you assault a Leman Russ for example...
If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.
Pyrovores might be worthwhile with Jormugandr for delivery (same cost as a Lictor if I recall correctly). Next cheapest is Venomthropes followed by Shock Cannon Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, then Impaler Cannon Hive Guard and then the monsters.
I'm really liking my Hive Guard, so taking 3 minimum broods might work well enough for a brigade. Would have a nice firebase if paired with Biovores in Heavy and then use a couple Spore Mine clusters or Mucolids to cover the Fast Attack (just shy of 550 points before troops and HQ).
GSC got hit with a DENY. Looks like they will be a micro-faction, kind of sucks for them.
It isn't the end of the world. As is GSC still has access to two highly competitive allies and they got a really nice update with chapter approved (good Relic, great stratagems, interesting warlord trait, cost reductions on a lot of weaponry). Besides, in the new year we might start seeing more model releases so their range could see an expansion when their codex drops. All the new weaponry in Necromunda is perfect fodder for the cult army to borrow from since they operate on a similar tech level as the Necromunda gangs.
Pyrovores might be worthwhile with Jormugandr for delivery (same cost as a Lictor if I recall correctly). Next cheapest is Venomthropes followed by Shock Cannon Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, then Impaler Cannon Hive Guard and then the monsters.
I'm really liking my Hive Guard, so taking 3 minimum broods might work well enough for a brigade. Would have a nice firebase if paired with Biovores in Heavy and then use a couple Spore Mine clusters or Mucolids to cover the Fast Attack (just shy of 550 points before troops and HQ).
Pyrovores are 7 points cheaper than a lictor and I've found them to be very nice in Jorm or Kraken lists. The AP-1 flamer is... fine, not great, but better than a lictor.
Zimko wrote: If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.
Umm.. the brigade is cheaper
By 6 points (by my rough calculations!).
However I think there are less dead slots in a brigade; with 3 battalions, that is more points are tied into units you must take to fill out the slots.
I.e. whilst that 711 points for a brigade includes 3x1 Biovores, you can instead field exocrines or t-fexes etc. With Battalions it is all extra points. And there will often be tournament limitations. Either non duplicating detachments or a limit of 2 seems to be cropping up.
Zimko wrote: If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.
For most factions that would be true, but our troop choices tend to be pricey (because you need large numbers per squad) and we have actual, cheap, effective Fast Attack options. Our HQ options are great but expensive as heck outside of the neurothrope.
I prefer to run Brigade if I can. I'll run two battalions if I'm crunched for points, but three generally isn't worth it.
A mind bogler I was hoping they would clearify in the FAQ. I did not see it however.
'-Charge Phase
You charge, as per rulebook
-Fight Phase
You fight, as per rulebook, and only may attack what you charged, as per rulebook
Should you kill the unit you use Overrun, as per stratagem
At the end of the phase, you use Adrenaline Surge, as per stratagem
And then you get into a new close combat'
They did not clearify if this is legal or not did they?
Edit: I don't know if the lictor is bad. It reminds me of a swarm base, only slightly more expensive. They might even also kill opponents objective grabbers. Spore mines are stil good in the fast attack to prevent opponent to deep strike.
I mean, the close I can find is this:
Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged. As
such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
(and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy
unit moves within 1" of them.
I'm playing a local tournament that has an LVO ticket as part of the prize package this weekend. I have a reasonably competitive meta, and can expect to see any of the existing power builds.
The default plan is to reserve the 'stealers, 'gaunts, Raveners, and Tyrants. The Kronos force sits in the backfield, absorbs fire the first turn, and opens vehicles for the deep strikers on my turn. Reserves land, 'gaunts clear screens, Tyrants smite+shoot, and everything that has a target goes for a charge. I expect to burn 2 CP on the Raveners pregame, 2 on the 'gaunts double tapping, which leaves me 3 for charge rerolls or potentially double fighting the 'stealers.
The Rippers get deployed to eat up space and keep deep strikers back away from the Tyranofexes. They mostly exist to provide enough units on the table to permit everyone I want deep striking to be in reserves. Depending on the matchup, I may infestation the 'stealers as a counter charge, or use the 'gaunts as a screen.
My default is for the warlord to be a Hive Tyrant, with the Jorgm. relic (-1 leadership bubble) and Jorgm. warlord trait (ignores cover bubble). I can see the 'gaunts and the deathspitters getting utility out of the ignores cover bubble, and it shouldn't be that hard to drop such that I have it when I want it. My reading of the FAQ is that if the 'stealers/Raveners fail a charge, the cover bonus from Jorgm. still applies, as they have not charged. -EDIT-I am wrong about this, I should read FAQ after morning coffee, not before-
I could shuffle the warlord Tyrant into Kronos to maximize psychic denial. I could drop a unit of Raveners, maybe bulk up the remaining unit to 4 models, and fill in the 'gaunts and 'stealers to 30 and 19 models. If I did that I would be trying to fit 49 models around the Raveners, which is doable but not easy, or deploying one of the two squads on the table and trying to use Catylist to keep them alive long enough to do something. I could do something similar by turning a Tyranofex into an Exocrine, which gives me a few more 'stealers/'gaunts and reliable S7 at the cost of that sweet sweet 48" S10.
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.
They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.
Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs
I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.
From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OPAM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.
This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?
Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.
Perhaps our flyers might be of help? They certainly have the speed to get to the foe and can move over screens with impunity. I vaguely remember reading about a successful Crone Spam list during the index and they got a bit better in the codex (doubled the number of shots on tentaclids and their spur is now a free attack).
I'm a bit surprised Devourer Termagants didn't make the list. As far as I know nothing else in the game can match them in number of shots for the cost for screen removal. Hive Guard make sense though, as anyone playing from 5th edition probably has 6-9 of them laying around.
Still, thank you for your summaries and congratulations on your placing. Nice to hear reports on what is going on at the top tables.
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.
They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.
Lictor is far superior to a ripper base. +1 wound, -1 to hit with shooting, 3+ melee, rending claws, 5+ save (+2 for cover), no instinctive behavior, and S&T 4. They come in at 45 points, which is good based off of a rippers price. Both have deep strike and 4 attacks. Lictors can kill a character and gain you CP.
What is the exact wording of The Enemy Below stratagem?
Does it require a Hive Fleet Jormungandr infantry unit to be deployed from the tunnels made from a Hive Fleet Jormungandr (Mawloc/Ravener/Trygon etc).
This Lictor change has made things tricky...
I'm guessing that, because of the 1st Q&A in the FAQ, you cannot redirect a unit coming out of tunnels as per Enemy Below using a further 1cp strat with a Lictor?
Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs
I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.
From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OPAM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.
This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?
Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.
Thanks for the tournament review. What lists/armies ended up winning Portal?
Niiai wrote: A mind bogler I was hoping they would clearify in the FAQ. I did not see it however.
'-Charge Phase
You charge, as per rulebook
-Fight Phase
You fight, as per rulebook, and only may attack what you charged, as per rulebook
Should you kill the unit you use Overrun, as per stratagem
At the end of the phase, you use Adrenaline Surge, as per stratagem
And then you get into a new close combat'
They did not clearify if this is legal or not did they?
I believe this is legal. The Adrenaline surge says you get to fight again. If the rules already state you can only fight once, but their is a stratagem that allows you to fight again as an exception to the rule. I don't have the book in front of me, but is overrun considered a charge? I see what your getting at. Perhaps the answer is to declare a multi charge in anticipation of overrunning into the next unit, of course it would need to be within 12:.
I mean, the close I can find is this:
Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged. As
such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
(and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy
unit moves within 1" of them.
It does not clearify a lot.
This is for the Jorm Fleet. If you try and charge and fail, you count as having charged and lose your +1 cover.
The other part about not being able to pile in and consolidate is in regards to hormies, in which people would fail a charge, and still pile in 6". i personally thought this was pretty clear that you couldn't pile in, but its good to have clarity on.
I can definitely see Gargoyles being very good. Having the fly keyword and being able to assault over screens is excellent. Onslaught on those dudes + Swarmlord double move + double opportunistic advance is going to mess up a lot of gunlines
Nick N was the highest of us 3, he subbed 3 hive guard for 25 kraken gargs
I was the weird one with a brigade and no swarmlord. Dallas said he thought that he didn't feel nids could work without swarmlord. I disagree, I did not feel I lost any of my matches because of my list.
From what I understand, Dallas lost his last match to Alex Fennell running a lot of super OPAM stuff like thudd guns, shadowsword, etc. He managed to get first turn and get a GS squad into alex's army, but was then basically wiped out in one shooting phase. He mentioned that Alex made no mistakes in deployment, and that he (dallas) couldn't manage to huge any models to prevent falling back. I think our only hope against an army like that is the ability to null deploy many of our most important units, and come in for the beta strike.
This is why I think swarmlord must be in a pod and reserves based list. It is also why I do not think he is entirely required, but is absolutely viable. It also makes me question the viability of Behemoth, though I am pretty sure that increased odds of making the charge at the expense of being totally vulnerable to being locked in combat is not at all worth it. Perhaps a behemoth detachment with pods of hormagaunts?
Honestly I don't know. I don't know that my list would have fared better than Dallas vs Fennell. Without being forced to play hive guard on the board, I don't have any good, easy targets for big multi-damage weapons (Except venoms and biovores, both of which I do my best to hide and aren't exactly critical to my list). At the same time, I don't have the same long, versatile shooting that they have. My biggest advantage is that I can drop my army in from reserves and go to work there, but I'm not even remotely convinced that it would be enough. It just seems like AM is just plain ahead of the curve. There doesn't seem to be an answer anywhere, and if there is, it's most likely going to be in Chaos or Eldar.
EDIT: I like the first part of that kraken list. Run something similar. Did they take the Tyrannocyte or tyrant guard for the Swarmlord?
Zimko wrote: If the tournament allows it, 3 battalions seems much better than a brigade. Our troop and HQ options are much better than trying to cram in 3 Fast Attack and 3 Elites.
For most factions that would be true, but our troop choices tend to be pricey (because you need large numbers per squad) and we have actual, cheap, effective Fast Attack options. Our HQ options are great but expensive as heck outside of the neurothrope.
I prefer to run Brigade if I can. I'll run two battalions if I'm crunched for points, but three generally isn't worth it.
How bad are lictors now? Are they over costed for a 3 wound model with reasonable stats & deployment options. If so, by how much?
What is that cost x2 (as you'll likely have at least one good non-lictor Elite choice.. i.e. HG). That value feels like a pretty good tax for a brigade
Brigades aren't dead. Simply the train has arrived at Hyperbole station
I will double check once i'm back from work. but i remember Lictors having 4 wounds.
They do indeed have 4 wounds. I'd price the Lictor at maybe 30-35 points now. Any cheaper and its too good for a brigade, more expensive and it's too rubbish to do anything. It's similar to a ripper swarm.
Lictor is far superior to a ripper base. +1 wound, -1 to hit with shooting, 3+ melee, rending claws, 5+ save (+2 for cover), no instinctive behavior, and S&T 4. They come in at 45 points, which is good based off of a rippers price. Both have deep strike and 4 attacks. Lictors can kill a character and gain you CP.
Anyway, from what I'm reading so far. It looks like a 2k Brigade seems to be somewhat lackluster. It seems like your sacrificing so much, Exo's, Warriors/Stealers (enmass) for the extra CP's.
Anyway, from what I'm reading so far. It looks like a 2k Brigade seems to be somewhat lackluster. It seems like your sacrificing so much, Exo's, Warriors/Stealers (enmass) for the extra CP's.
Is it viable to run two 'better' battalions?
I look at it this way. Brigades and double battalions are completely different lists. Brigades use a bit less brutal power but a lot of disruption, with gargoyles, raveners and lictors to tie up enemy shooters. Double battalion is a more frontal list.
Drager wrote: The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.
I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.
Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?
Lance845 wrote: Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.
On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.
It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.
Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.
I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.
On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.
It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.
Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.
I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.
Do we have some of the old school siluet pictures? Those would be awsome to have in a faint grey behind instead of the cover photo. Less colours is easier on the eyes. Having it just blank is a bit drab.
luke1705 wrote: I can definitely see Gargoyles being very good. Having the fly keyword and being able to assault over screens is excellent. Onslaught on those dudes + Swarmlord double move + double opportunistic advance is going to mess up a lot of gunlines
Opp advance is on non-fly units, sadly. Which, combined with the cost, is why I stick with horms.
For everyone asking about their lists, no, they had swarmlord on foot. Most tournaments are now playing with at least 1 large LOS blocking in the middle of the board, and 1/2 in each deployment. A GS unit can move up to 40" in one turn, and still charge, with swarmlord. Even coming out of an infestation node, they can move an additional 20, so there is a lot of flexibility with placement.
I used 29 dev gants with a trygon. They were fantastic, as usual. I thought I'd miss having the second Trygon, and I kind of did, but the extra CP were critical every game.
Tomorrow I should start writing battle reports, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the Battle For Salvation crew was streaming 1 table throughout the tourney. If you could find the 2nd round stream, you can probably hear me screaming obscenities about my dice fething me (I'm one of those guys who spends the whole game laughing, joking and being absurdly crude), as we were playing right next to the broadcasting area.
The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.
The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.
So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.
The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.
What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
Automatically Appended Next Post: What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
The overall winner was an AM/Soup list. Had like 4 hellhounds, manticores, celestine, harker, bunch of stuff. Just look for the twitch stream, they posted lists, I think.
Still legal list after CA?
Nah, we weren't using CA. That's why a lot of nid players still had the Mal.
I ripped the bandaid early and just sucked it up and dropped mine.
Zimko wrote: So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.
The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.
My previous list was double battalion, with 2 Trygons, but this tourney didn't allow doubles of any detachment. I'll probably go back to double battalion. Trygons are glass hammers, but they are REALLY big hammers... one of them ate a Deredo, a Leviathan and put a lot of wounds on a DGDP, in one game. If you can lock down the shooting, they will run absolutely amok on things.
Zimko wrote: So far I love having 2 Trygons. I used medobolic overdrive in a Malanthrope to give both Trygons, devgaunts and Flyrant -1 aura when they arrive. Usually there's nothing for them to charge since the devgaunts have to kill the screen. Swarmlord can also get there with double advance and use hive commander on the genestealers that the second Trygon brings. I've only had 3 games with it but it has worked nicely so far.
The flyrant also has chameleons scales for -2 to hit.
My previous list was double battalion, with 2 Trygons, but this tourney didn't allow doubles of any detachment. I'll probably go back to double battalion. Trygons are glass hammers, but they are REALLY big hammers... one of them ate a Deredo, a Leviathan and put a lot of wounds on a DGDP, in one game. If you can lock down the shooting, they will run absolutely amok on things.
I completely agree. Trygons, especially with -1 aura and 19 Genestealers and Flyrant and Swarmlord to deal with, are usually untouched for a turn. Last tourney I ate Bjorn with one using the reroll to wound strat. They killed a bunch of zerkers, a couple random rhinos and razorbacks. Even when degraded they still have 7 melee lascannons (with lower than lascannons strength but close enough). Jorm strat is cool and all but Im thinking of just sticking to Kraken and Trygons.
Spoletta wrote: What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.
Spoletta wrote: What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
Spore Mines and Mucolids have the Fly rule so they can't use the Opportunistic Advance stratagem, sadly.
Spoletta wrote: What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.
How exactly does that work? Both fielding normally and deep striking.. I think I'm missing a step or two here..
Spoletta wrote: What this FAQ says though is that if you use opportunistic advance you keep the bonus also for the metabolic advance. You could potentially cover 30" with a spore mine...
Yep, may make big mucolid or spore mine units a thing. 2CP and 90 pts for ~9 MW, or 60 pts for ~6 MW... though with 9 spore mines you may struggle to get them all within 3" depending on the board. Probably better to use it out of deep strike, only need a 4+ on the advance, and with 3d6, that's pretty damn good odds. Hell, with a little luck you could chunk down Magnus to almost half in one go.
How exactly does that work? Both fielding normally and deep striking.. I think I'm missing a step or two here..
Doesn't work, can't use opportunistic advance on units with fly.
I pointed that out earlier about gargoyles, but totally brain-farted and forgot both mines have fly.
Can still get them reasonably far by spawning them on the board and going double kraken advance with metabolic overdrive, should be 16”, good for countering aggressive lists
@ Trace - fair doos, thought it was too good to be true.
C4790M wrote: Can still get them reasonably far by spawning them on the board and going double kraken advance with metabolic overdrive, should be 16”, good for countering aggressive lists
Drager wrote: The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.
I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.
Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?
What sells the exocrine for me personally is that unmoving, it NEVER degrades past BS 4+. (4/5/5 with plus 1). Ive shot stuff off the board turn 2 or going second with 1-3 wounds left.
The second point is that it synergizes much better with the +1 damage monster shoot stratagem. Potential plus 12 vs plus 6 at a better undamaged BS.
Range is a very real consideration. As you say it is about meta also. Assuming in range and los, Rupture Cannon only outperforms against T8. Exocrine can be used against a broader range of light vehicles and heavy infantry. 12 shots against garbage is also twice as good as 6 of course.
Rupture cannon feels more rock paper scissors, but if you know your friends are bringing big stuff all the time...it is better.
Of course Acid Spray is a damage king, but range means it relies on opponent mistakes/poor rolls as much as your own positioning. Im still running it for now.
What I’m wondering now is if the Malanthrope is worth it still at 140. The -1 to hit is really nice, especially vs guard, but I can put so many more bodies out there....I think it still winds up being worth it, but man is it close
He fits a niche that is difficult to replace. 3 Venomthropes are cheaper but if only 1 dies then their aura stops covering monsters. If you pay 120 for 4 of them then you might as well shell out for the Malanthrope. Also, there's the cost of HQ. If you have Malanthrope in your list, then he's filling an HQ slot that you'll either have to replace with another HQ or completely change your detachments. For 140 pts he is still a cheap HQ option relative to our other choices.
Has anyone else considered running 3 tyrants with HVC and devs and a unit of 6 tyrant guard backed by a malenthrope? Only 900 points. Kronos obviously.
Seems like some pretty decent dakka and should be tanky as all get out.
I just can't get over how cheap walka-rants are. One with MRC, devs and adrenal glands is the same price as a broodlord. Yes please.
Lance845 wrote: Tyranid Soup tactics are fine here as long as tyranids is a major component of your force. What they are talking about is bringing at most 5 small units, most of them needed to fill out the detachment, to supplement a majority nid force. That absolutely belongs in this discussion. If it was the other way around, 3-4 Nid units to add to a GSC/AM force then take it someplace else.
On a different subject, I found a way to create a PDF form so you guys would need to fill in the information on the quick reference sheet yourself (which also makes it legal for me to post to dakka). But, here is a preview of what I have going so far.
Spoiler:
It will be at most 2 pages (front and back of a single laminated cardstock sheet or 2 sheets if thats what you prefer) and include all wargear when it's done.
Fantastic, ready for the 2nd page so i can print mine out.
I did a test print of this, and if I may make a suggestion I think its a bit hard to read, You may need to remove the background image, as cool as it looks, but it makes some of the lines, especially the darker lines harder to read. Also, perhaps try and do outlined boxes/borders, not sure if that will help. Overall though, fantastic, cant wait to see the end result.
Any chance you can make it fillable in a pdf or line up with the tab button? That would be really really super awesome.
The plan is to make it a fillable PDF. I found my old copy of Adobe CS3 from school and got it on my laptop. Now I can make fillable PDF forms. It's a bit of trial and error getting it to work right but Il figure it out soon enough. Page 2 is almost finished.
Niiai wrote: Do we have some of the old school siluet pictures? Those would be awsome to have in a faint grey behind instead of the cover photo. Less colours is easier on the eyes. Having it just blank is a bit drab.
I will be happy to stick whatever picture into the background that people want. I can also increase the opacity on the white box to increase the sharpness on the text and fade out the image a bit more. I haven't tested printing any of it yet. Still adjusting some of the layout and stuff.
Finally, as a reminder, I intend to make a 8.5 x 11 version and a 5 x 8 (same as the small format codexes). Personally I will be sticking with the 5 x 8.
Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.
Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.
Tried out my 2000 points list last weekend, vs an Ultramarines + Imperial Knight list.
No full battle report, suffice it to say the Tyranids won it fairly clearly.
List below, along with how each unit performed.
Kraken Bataillon Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 TLD, Adrenals, Chameolonic Mutation Deep struck turn 1. Did 4 wounds to a Storm Talon with Smite+TLD. Killed a Land Speeder in turn two. Did 4 wounds to a Rhino in turn three.
Overall feeling: while 24 ST6 shots sounds nice, in this game he didn't feel like he earned back his points. This might possibly be because I fired at the wrong targets and should have been aiming more for infantry. Will have to try him again.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 1 TLD, MST, Adrenals, Toxin Sacs Deep strike turn 1, Charged a Venerable Dreadnought, killed it in two turns, while also taking 6 wounds (can't roll a 4++ to save my life). Killed a full Tactical Squad after that through Smite/TLD/MST
Overall feeling: did well, Scything Talons are solid weapons. 12 Devourer shots is still plenty but suffer from low AP, might still give him Heavy Venom Cannon instead to try out.
20 Genestealers Couldn't roll high enough on the advance roll for turn 1 charge against juicy targets, so killed a unit of Scouts instead.
After that, 90% of the enemy army shot at them, and wiped them out. Forgot to put Catalyst on them :(
So you might say they didn't do much, but they did soak an awful lot of firepower before going.
Next time they'll just run up with the Hormagaunts, instead of getting distracted by Scouts.
15 Genestealers Came out of infestation marker and charged Terminators + Librarian who had teleported in my deployment zone.
Still stuck in combat with Termies at end of battle, due to lack of rendings.
Useful to have them avaiable in the deployment zone, but Spore Mines / Rippers could have blocked the Terminators as well, so should probably have run them up as well. Live and learn.
18 Hormagaunts Surged forward on a big line through the middle, presenting a direct and immeadiate threat.
Forced the Ultramarines to disembark from their Rhino to kill them, leaving the Termagaunts behind them to lock down the Marines.
Very fast with the Kraken adaptation, cannot be ignored, not for damage but for locking down units. Solid.
Kronos Bataillon -----------------------------
Neurothrope Stayed with the Kronos fire base. Didn't do very much, but just he fact that he is untargeteable synapse in your fire base, makes him golden.
Neurothrope Dealt with the Terminator invasion in the deployment zone. Same remark as other Neurothrope.
29 Termagaunts Avanced right behind the Hormagaunts and when they all died, locked down the Marines, together with the Malanthrope.
15 or so died, and then they fell back out of combat, leaving the Kronos firebase to finish off the Marines.
3 Ripper Swarms
3 Ripper Swarms Did their job. Deep struck turn 3, when most of the fighting was dying down and grabbed the objectives.
Kronos Spearhead
Malanthrope Advanced behind the Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, giving them the benefit of the -1 to-hit bubble.
Solid, as usual, will probably still take him even with the price hike to 140. His 9 wounds and aura just make him so good.
6 Hive Guard, Impaler Cannons Absolute MVP's. Stuck them centrally out of LOS of everything.
Shot 9 wounds of an Imperial Knight turn 1, and then 7 more with the 'shoot again' Strategem.
Ultramarines couldn't reach them due to sea of Gaunts in-between, so they shot everything to pieces.
Exocrine Helped with the Imperial Knight and with the Ultramarines in the middle.
Very solid shooting, only outshadowed by the Hive Guard...
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Sneaky bastards 'missed' the Imperial Knight turn 1 and plopped three Spore Mines in front of him, forcing him to move sideways instead of towards us.
Having the option of either going for Mortal Wounds or putting Spore Mines in the way of nasty units is just great.
Astmeister wrote: Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.
Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.
I must have missed it. How do you make use of Mucolids? I like the model and would love to have some use out of those instead of just brigade tax evasion.
Astmeister wrote: Spores:
Just to point it out again... you can still do dirty things on first turn with Mucolid Spores! They are even good as defense against Alpha Legion Berzerkers and such.
Venomthropes:
Is it worth considering to use 1 Venomthrope as an Auxillary detachment and letting it come out of a hole with a lot of other infantery. Should be really cheap (30 points) and is not much easier to shoot than 2-3 of them.
I must have missed it. How do you make use of Mucolids? I like the model and would love to have some use out of those instead of just brigade tax evasion.
Drager wrote: The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.
I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.
Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?
Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.
Super Heavy
Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
Armour
Tank
Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
Transport
This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"
Infantry
Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.
TEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
MEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"
GEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"
Range
The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.
Other COnsiderations
Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).
Verdict
Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.
Drager wrote: The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.
I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.
Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?
Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.
Super Heavy
Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
Armour
Tank
Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
Transport
This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"
Infantry
Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.
TEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
MEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"
GEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"
Range
The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.
Other COnsiderations
Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).
Verdict
Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.
Very good writeup, thank you!
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
I think both should have different probabilities of 6 or more wounds?
The Hive Guard with Schock Cannon is clearly good, but it needs a delivery option and is probably dead after one shooting phase. Besides it does not work against all super heavy targets, for example the Wraith Knight.
Sneaky bastards 'missed' the Imperial Knight turn 1 and plopped three Spore Mines in front of him, forcing him to move sideways instead of towards us.
Having the option of either going for Mortal Wounds or putting Spore Mines in the way of nasty units is just great.
The best thing is that they do still block movement if you do it right. And hilariously, if it's that important, you can move your biovores to make them less accurate!
What is showing up in the Guard lists that people are having issues dealing with? What do these lists look like? Anyone with recent tournament experience mind sharing?
Ok, I think I needs some clarity on this Pheromone Trail FAQ.
Says you can't use it for Genestealer Node Lurk ability or for any unit that is added to your army by an ability (so like other stratagems that give us reinforcements.)
I can still take Genestealers in regular reserve via a Trygon though and then use it though right? Or Hormies or devilgaunts. You just have to find another way to put the unit in reserve.
Also, is their no way to hold a Broodlord off now, since it cant use the Genestealer nodes, you would basically have to put it with a Trygon taxi.
I guess, for clarity, What units ARE eligible now for the Lictor Taxi?
Dynas wrote: Ok, I think I needs some clarity on this Pheromone Trail FAQ.
Says you can't use it for Genestealer Node Lurk ability
Correct.
Dynas wrote: or for any unit that is added to your army by an ability (so like other stratagems that give us reinforcements.)
Not quite. Any unit added to your army by another unit, so stratagems are fine.
Dynas wrote: I can still take Genestealers in regular reserve via a Trygon though and then use it though right? Or Hormies or devilgaunts. You just have to find another way to put the unit in reserve.
Not anymore, per the first answer in the FAQ with regards to the Jormungandr tunnels (though it is worded to apply more broadly)
Dynas wrote: Also, is their no way to hold a Broodlord off now, since it cant use the Genestealer nodes, you would basically have to put it with a Trygon taxi.
Or a Jormungandr tunnel for a ravener taxi. Or a tyrannocte if you're mental.
Dynas wrote: I guess, for clarity, What units ARE eligible now for the Lictor Taxi?
Only units created with Call the Brood and Endless Swarm I think.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
That's the thing, it's 130pts for filler and +1CP or, as I've already invested a lot of points into a 9CP brigade, the -1 doesn't hurt so much.
I'm agreeing that Nids have great choices to cheaply fill out slots.. I'm planning to leverage that under a Brigade.. but I want to put more-than 1 unit up field turn 1 (that can't innately do it themselves)...Plus trygons aren't cheap! But maybe just +1 Trygon?
Dynas wrote: Ok, I think I needs some clarity on this Pheromone Trail FAQ.
Dynas wrote: or for any unit that is added to your army by an ability (so like other stratagems that give us reinforcements.)
Not quite. Any unit added to your army by another unit, so stratagems are fine.
So this just rules out spore mines created by Biovores, Sporecyst, etc...
I guess, for clarity, What units ARE eligible now for the Lictor Taxi?
Only units created with Call the Brood and Endless Swarm I think.
But those require we pay reinforcement points for, so that really sucks. Man they nerfed the crap outta this.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
Mucolids have a 6+ Save.
And I think there might be a reason to take an Auxilliary det, if you want to field an understrength unit. Like I said before, a Venomthrope might be worth it.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
Mucolids have a 6+ Save.
And I think there might be a reason to take an Auxilliary det, if you want to field an understrength unit. Like I said before, a Venomthrope might be worth it.
Jorm mucolids have a 5+ save. 1 venomthrope could sometimes be handy.
Did you account for the differences to hit? 3+ 4+?
Maybe I did, or maybe not. I know I did this before and thought the difference was bigger. I'll have to check. I did this really quick at work, so might have screwed up.
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 5.83 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 53%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
Ahk, I did not! I'll change the earlier post. I think that the conclusion is similar, but the gap is even smaller. Will do it later thought for now, yeah I mucked it up by rushing in my break.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
Mucolids have a 6+ Save. And I think there might be a reason to take an Auxilliary det, if you want to field an understrength unit. Like I said before, a Venomthrope might be worth it.
Jorm mucolids have a 5+ save. 1 venomthrope could sometimes be handy.
No they don't. Mucolids have the Fly keyword. Units with Fly do not gain cover from Jorm.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on using Auxiliary detachments?
I want a unit from a different Hive Fleet (Jorm) but I don't want to field the bigger detachments & buy additional filler.
Basically Dev Gants to be tunnelled in, using a Kraken Mawloc/Trygon.
Thoughts?
Not worth the -1 CP.
Grab a Neurothrope and 3 mucolids to take the world's cheapest detachment (130 points of actual utility) and then add your stuff. Best of all, that's a net +2 CP. Would you pay 130 points to get another psyker, 3 sources of mortal wounds if ignored (that hilariously have a 5+ save) and 2 more CP in your list over an auxiliary detachment? I know I would without hesitation.
That's the thing, it's 130pts for filler and +1CP or, as I've already invested a lot of points into a 9CP brigade, the -1 doesn't hurt so much.
I'm agreeing that Nids have great choices to cheaply fill out slots.. I'm planning to leverage that under a Brigade.. but I want to put more-than 1 unit up field turn 1 (that can't innately do it themselves)...Plus trygons aren't cheap! But maybe just +1 Trygon?
I would pick a single ravener model. It's possible to fit 20/30 gaunts around a single 40mm base.
wizerdree wrote: I apologize that this isn't a pure tactics question but are carnifex now only sold in the web exclusive 2-packs?
I'm putting together a shopping list for the holidays and would prefer to buy from my FLGS but part of what I want are 6 fexes. Thanks!
There's been a run on them. Depending on your area your FLGS may be able to get them in or not. I'd check with them.
Unless you are in London. Apparently people are fighting in the destroyed remains of GW stores over carnifex boxes that will only realize are empty after they open them with their bloodstained fingers.
Drager wrote: What's happening here in London that's special?
I don't know, The tyranids facebook members in that area seem particularly bitter. Maybe they aren't used to shortages since they are so close to the distribution centers? Out here I can always raid a shop for the unsold 2e and 3e stuff if the 7-8e stuff can't be found. Of course it could just be a loud vocal minority over exaggerating the state of things there - but this is the Internet, surely that doesn't happen often right?
Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?
I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems
For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.
Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.
Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?
And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...
For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Resipsa131 wrote: Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?
I would say the latter. It just increases the amount of powers cast by one. Why would he be able to cast a power he doesnt know?
Can be usefull when having a big need for a special power (for example catalyst) and having a very good target for smite in addition.
Its only usefull for units, who know more powers than they can cast, like Tyrants, Swarmlord, or Zoanthropes with 1-3 models.
Edit:
Can someone explain to me, why i ever should use the 'Call the Brood' stratagem? 3cps for 5 genestealers as single unit? Is there some weird constellation where it is usefull enough to hold the points in reserve? Like grabbing an objective, unoccupied near a remaining node?
Drager wrote: What is showing up in the Guard lists that people are having issues dealing with? What do these lists look like? Anyone with recent tournament experience mind sharing?
I played a 2 day tournament with this (pre- tyranid codex):
Elite: Platoon commander (dagger of tu’sakh relic)
Elite: Master of ordnance
Elite: Astropath
Elite: 5 ratlings
Elite: 5 ratlings
Troops: 27 conscripts (join the platoon commander for "outflank")
Troops: 10 infantry with plasmagun
Troops: 10 infantry with plasmagun
HS: Manticore
HS: 3x basilisk
HS: 3x wyverns
The amount of artillery is brutal and I killed almost every opponent in front of me. But killing them is not enough. I played against two astra militarum armylist and didn't get past turn 3/4. Two games (1 against the astra militarum army) I simply lost because of bad tactical objectives outcome.
But for tyranids it's hard to get past the first ratlings screen (deploy 18 inch from the enemy), and after that you got the regular infantry bubblewrap to protect the good stuff. If tyranids cannot tie up the shooty units turn 2, they're done.
But for tyranids it's hard to get past the first ratlings screen (deploy 18 inch from the enemy), and after that you got the regular infantry bubblewrap to protect the good stuff. If tyranids cannot tie up the shooty units turn 2, they're done.
What rules force you to stay 18" away from the enemy with deepstriking units and such?
Edit:
I found some opponents do you a favor with the screens. One of my last games, my opponent made his screens with max coherency. So i charged through between the models and consolidated further in his lines.
After the game I wasnt sure anymore if this is a legal move.
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Drager wrote: The Exocrine is pretty much just better than the tyrannofex, not by much, but enough in a competitive meta.
I'm not sold that it is. I see the trade off as being range + potential spike damage vs. consistency. Maybe it is a local meta issue, but being able to threaten T8 first turn means a lot to me.
Can you walk me through the logic on why the Exocrine is better?
Sure. First off let's compare their damage profiles against various targets. In this case, I am assuming that both are in range and stationary. The range difference I'll discuss below.
Super Heavy
Here the rupture cannon is a clear winner, if you are facing a meta replete with knights and titans the Rupture cannon is the better choice and worth the extra 16 points. The Bioplasmic Cannon is by no means bad though and catches up a lot with Pathogenic Slime, getting more of a boost than the Rupture Cannon. Against these targets 2-3 rupture cannons are what you want for certain.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 8 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 6.22 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 57%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 2+ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 5.33 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 55%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+/5++ Wounds: 24
Average Damage: 3.56 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
Armour
Tank
Here again, the Rupture Cannon is better, so if the enemy army is overloading on Russ chassis it could be useful, however, unlike with super heavies you don't want more than one, in fact the optimal pair is Rupture Cannon and Exocrine, not wasting killing power or paying more than needed. If you are taking 3 weapon beasts and facing a Russ herd then 2 Rupture Cannon and 1 Exocrine seems best. If you are facing 2-3 heavy chassis then 2 Exocrine and 1 Rupture will get the job done nicely and leave you with other advantages.
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 68%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
Transport
This is probably the most common vehicle toughness/save combination in 40k at the moment and the Bioplasmic Cannon with pathogenic slime is by far our best bet at totalling one in a single volley, although both it and a slimey Rupture Cannon tie on average damage. I would typically want to shoot this target with 2 things, however, as that will more likely succeed at the kill and in that case, two bioplasmic cannons or two Rupture Cannons is fine, although the Rupture cannon costs more for a very similar performance and much less of a boost with Slime. Very similar performance in this category. I'd probably take 3 Exocrines and a Biovore over 3 Tyrannofex against razorspam.
"Bioplasmic Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 89%"
"Rupture Cannon With Pathogenic Slime vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 10 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 72%"
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 7 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 6.67 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 69%"
Infantry
Given the similar performance against armour (except super heavies) this is an important thing to look at, what else can these beasts do? And the answer is simple. Shoot infantry. The Biplasmic Cannon massively out performs at this secondary role.
TEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 7.11 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 74%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 2+/5++ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 39%"
MEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4.44 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 26%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 2.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 1%"
GEQ
"Bioplasmic Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 7.78 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 91%"
"Rupture Cannon vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3.89 Wounds
Probability of 6 or more wounds: 7%"
Range
The extra 12" of range rarely comes up in most deployment types, either they are 60+" away or within 48", especially if you hold your weapon beasts to deploy after their tanks.
Other COnsiderations
Against super heavy armour, we actually have a different unit in the same price bracket that is better at killing them: Shock Cannon Hive Guard. These have their own set of issues though so are not clearly better (24" range being the big bugbear).
Verdict
Writing this I've actually changed my mind. Whilst taking one or two of the big beasts I'd still go with 2 Exocrine, I'd say with 3 you want to split it 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex. They are much closer than I originally thought. Thanks for getting me to reconsider.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and type all of this up. It is a very nice look at the issue and highlights to me how broad our antitank options are.
My take away is that they are close enough that meta and build play into it just as much as quality of the unit does. I ran 2 Exocrine/1 Tyrannofex a few weeks ago, and I liked it. I see your point about extra utility vs infantry. I think the sweet spot for us is making the Kronos detachment out of three gun monsters + Neurothrope. My local runs heavy armor heavy, so I'm trying 3x Tyrannofex this weekend. I'll likely switch to 2 and 1 if I do LVO, although I did really enjoy the impact of multiple rupture cannons.
I agree about shock cannon Hive Guard having issues. The more I see and think about them the more I think they are best suited for Apoc., where multiple units can be used as our version of suicide melta.
Impaler cannon Hive Guard seem to have a place as well. Eventually I'm going to try 2x6 of them, perhaps as a Kronos battalion-deep striking Rippers for troops, Neurothrope's for HQ, maybe in support of a Kraken or Jorgm. 'stealer + Swarmlord build. The Hive Guard version is about 80 points more expensive than the Exocrine/Exocrine/Tyranofex detachment (815 vs 732), brings the extra CP, takes better advantage of the psychic denying ability of Kronos, and helps with threat saturation by effective removing all of the good targets for antitank weapons.
Now I have to actually build that list, I think I'm only a few Hive Guard short of being able to run it.
DaBraken wrote: I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems
For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.
Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.
Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?
And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...
For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Resipsa131 wrote: Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?
I would say the latter. It just increases the amount of powers cast by one. Why would he be able to cast a power he doesnt know?
Can be usefull when having a big need for a special power (for example catalyst) and having a very good target for smite in addition.
Its only usefull for units, who know more powers than they can cast, like Tyrants, Swarmlord, or Zoanthropes with 1-3 models.
Edit:
Can someone explain to me, why i ever should use the 'Call the Brood' stratagem? 3cps for 5 genestealers as single unit? Is there some weird constellation where it is usefull enough to hold the points in reserve? Like grabbing an objective, unoccupied near a remaining node?
Something I've been considering is using Hydra and reserving 180 points. That's enough for a full sporefield strat or 15 stealers, a full gant squad w/ 50% devs, a full hormagaunt squad, a full gargoyle squad, a 4 man zoanthrope squad, a 6 man warrior squad w/ DS/BS, a squad of hive or tyrant guard, a large squad of venomthropes, a full pyrovore/biovore squad, or a large ravener squad.
You could even bring back the Red Terror/Deathleaper/Broodlord if you wanted. While you could just run another squad of X, this gives you the flexibility to bring back whatever you need the most depending on the situation.
DaBraken wrote: I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems
For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.
Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result
of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of
a Detachment?
A: No.
Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point.
BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?
And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for?
I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12".
Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...
For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points.
180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor.
Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1.
Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front?
Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Resipsa131 wrote: Can anyone clarify the Power of the Hive Mind Strategium; Does it allow you to cast a power your psyker doesn't know?
Does it allow your character to cast a power such as smite twice in the same psychic phase?
Or does it simply allow your character to cast a power that it knows in addition to the amount allowed but not any duplicate of any that it has attempted?
I would say the latter. It just increases the amount of powers cast by one. Why would he be able to cast a power he doesnt know?
Can be usefull when having a big need for a special power (for example catalyst) and having a very good target for smite in addition.
Its only usefull for units, who know more powers than they can cast, like Tyrants, Swarmlord, or Zoanthropes with 1-3 models.
Edit:
Can someone explain to me, why i ever should use the 'Call the Brood' stratagem? 3cps for 5 genestealers as single unit? Is there some weird constellation where it is usefull enough to hold the points in reserve? Like grabbing an objective, unoccupied near a remaining node?
Something I've been considering is using Hydra and reserving 180 points. That's enough for a full sporefield strat or 15 stealers, a full gant squad w/ 50% devs, a full hormagaunt squad, a full gargoyle squad, a 4 man zoanthrope squad, a 6 man warrior squad w/ DS/BS, a squad of hive or tyrant guard, a large squad of venomthropes, a full pyrovore/biovore squad, or a large ravener squad.
You could even bring back the Red Terror/Deathleaper/Broodlord if you wanted. While you could just run another squad of X, this gives you the flexibility to bring back whatever you need the most depending on the situation.
Problem, the unit has to be completely removed from the battlefield to do this. Can be a strategical backlash, if the units dont die in whole. You have to play more kamikaze then.
1) Kraken, 3x19 'stealer, 3 Venomthropes, 2 Broodlords.
-Simple and aggressive. You rely on 5+/5++ and the -1 to hit to stay alive for 2 turns, hope enough 'stealers make 2nd turn charges to win the game.
2) Jorgm, Swarmlord, pod, 20x 'stealer, 30x devourer 'gaunts, 2x3 Raveners, 2x venom cannon Warrriors
-'gaunts clear screens, Swarmlord + 'stealers eat things. Warriors sit in the backfield plinking and enable the 6-7 units in reserve needed for the Swarmy drop.
But for tyranids it's hard to get past the first ratlings screen (deploy 18 inch from the enemy), and after that you got the regular infantry bubblewrap to protect the good stuff. If tyranids cannot tie up the shooty units turn 2, they're done.
What rules force you to stay 18" away from the enemy with deepstriking units and such?
Edit:
I found some opponents do you a favor with the screens. One of my last games, my opponent made his screens with max coherency. So i charged through between the models and consolidated further in his lines.
After the game I wasnt sure anymore if this is a legal move.
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Ratlings can deploy (not deepstrike/reserves) outside 18 inch of the enemy, after all other units have deployed. Cheap way to push deep strike units away. I would use at least 2x5 units and thats only 2x35 points that can shoot at characters with sniper rifles.
And yes, I believe you did everything by the book regarding your charge.
OK, I was noodling around, and I built this "No Stealers" list.....maybe it's the pain meds, but I think this looks playable Let me know what you think
Kronos: Supreme Command +1 CP, x3 Winged Tyrants, MRC, Dev, Glands, maybe one Balethorn(likely add Miasma to a second Tyrant for 1 CP).......aprox 552 points
Marmatag wrote: That list will get aced by long ranged shooting.
If you're making a shooty nids list and you don't have hive guards that's a colossal mistake.
My 2c.
Thanks! I knew I was missing Something. But I thought that DS with the Supreme Command could let me trash what ever they have back there, even if it turns out to be a suicide mission.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three Tyrants, Double Tap. Fight Twice...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess some Veno's need to turn into Hive Guard.
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.
Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.
It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.
Definitely agree with Luke on learning the fight phase thoroughly. As my experience has grown I have been able to make a lot better plays within the phase to maximize my movement and damage, while also mitigating the opponents response.
The OP has a great guide into hormagaunt piling in/consolidating that I would highly recommend.
Things like making sure to avoid an enemy heroic intervention, and making sure you are making the "closest unit" something you want to consolidate into.
Also I know I am a bit late but thanks for the reports guys always enjoy reading up on those. Great insight and strategy.
DaBraken wrote: I made up my mind after reading the FAQ and tried to make further use of the Sporefield and Pheromone Trail stratagems
For example, the Sporefield stratagem, albeit considered bad.
Q: If a new unit is added to an army – for example as a result of the Sporefield or Call the Brood Stratagems – is it part of a Detachment? A: No.
Yes, we could just buy them regulary, but not doing so reduces the drops we have by 2, in addition to be able to place them just before the game starts to maybe block things noone thought of, because the units didn't exist at that point. BUT, what to do, when you dont want to use the stratagem after deployment an more? What to do with the 30-180 points unused?
And what could the Pheromone Trail be used for? I just could imagine to bring spore mines 9" close to the enemy, instead of 12". Everything else beeing able to go into reserves, but not beeing designated to a special deployment style can freely deepstrike whereever it wants, without the Pheromone Trail anyways... weird stratagem now...
For both these I had an idea, although its sure not the best way to burn cps and points. 180 Points would be a complete unit of 30 Gargoyles replenished via 'Endless Swarm', beeing able to come near a Liktor. Sure, why not just buying them in the first place... but this would be a way to summon whole troops after turn 3, wich is coonsidered to be safe mentioned deepstrike and such. And it reduces the drops by 1. Could this be a use for 3cps and 180 points not spent up front? Maybe its really just mere crap now after FAQ, I dont know.
I've been thinking about something similar. Reserving 180 points to either drop spore mines if i need it, or use it to bring back my adrenagants (180 points) to a lictor. In addition to this you play a squad of termagants that are 15/15 devourers/whatever which also clock at 180. This way you have 3 options for that points. Another option if you have a devbomb is to bring back 22 devgants to a lictor for another round of goodness (or bring them back as a 15/15 unit, it's allowed).
pinecone77 wrote: OK, I was noodling around, and I built this "No Stealers" list.....maybe it's the pain meds, but I think this looks playable Let me know what you think
Kronos: Supreme Command +1 CP, x3 Winged Tyrants, MRC, Dev, Glands, maybe one Balethorn(likely add Miasma to a second Tyrant for 1 CP).......aprox 552 points
I like your list! I was always more a shooty Tyranid player and like the concept. Especially the Carnifexen are very interesting with 4x DS and Acid Maw. Although I would probably go for the Devourers, because more shots with BS 4+ is better imho and they want to be close anyway to fight.
How many Termagants has each unit?
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.
Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.
It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.
You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.
Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.
It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.
You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...
You can move within1" when charging. So you move your models through his gaps to the other side. Perfectly legal. If you declare charges against both you can set up to pile in to another unit pretty easily.
"The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"
Traceoftoxin wrote: "The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"
Pg 182
Exactly this. You charge the screen and then run right past it. Also charge things behind.
Traceoftoxin wrote: "The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units. No models in the
charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that
was not a target of its charge"
Pg 182
Exactly this. You charge the screen and then run right past it. Also charge things behind.
As long as those things are within 12". You cannot declare a charge against a unit outside of 12", no matter your charge/pile in distances.
Yeah but if it's not in 12" then you couldn't make a charge move that could reach them anyway (except that magical place between 12 and 13 inches). After the charge move though, you can pile in and consolidate within 1" of anything as long as the model finishes the move closer to the nearest unit, even if that involves moving between models to reach a unit behind. Though you can not attack units you didn't charge.
This has been rehashed a lot but it's worth saying again. The fight phase is full of legal shenanigans to get units locked in combat to force a fallback move or to prevent one.
Can you charge behind enemy models, if you can fit between them, using your consolidation to go even further in their deployment zone, if there a models closer than the unit you just charged?
Oh 100%. I once lost a tournament game to a guy who won a 32 man RTT because I mis-spaced my models. He literally just said to me, "hey Luke....look at this" as he moved his guys through my models without touching their bases. I was like.....well. That sucks. He's a great sport and we play a lot, so I still rag on him for that tournament win I "gifted" him. Still got 5th but would have gotten first or second if I hadn't made that singular mistake.
Or, rather, let me clarify since what you're saying might be a little ambiguous. There are 2 units within 12" of you. You charge them both. They overwatch. You move your models up to your max charge roll, moving literally any direction that you want, going right past the models in the front unit if you want. Then when you pile, fight, and consolidate, each model in your unit needs to end each movement it makes closer to the model that it is itself closest to at that moment.
It's a little tricky, but making good pile and consolidate moves 100% wins games. Learn the phase thoroughly, ESPECIALLY for Nids.
You cannot move within 1" of enemy models, if you do, you stop there, and are assuming to charge in the charge phase. Given unit coherency is 2", and the smallest base is 1", I don't see how this is possible...
You can move within1" when charging. So you move your models through his gaps to the other side. Perfectly legal. If you declare charges against both you can set up to pile in to another unit pretty easily.
Maybe I misunderstood. The way it read it was like he was blowing by them. As long the first model comes into base contact, then you get to play with the spacing afterward.
Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v
Resipsa131 wrote: Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v
Yes. You only need to to reach 1" with the first model you move. It doesn't matter which unit it reaches as long as you declared it as a charge target.
Resipsa131 wrote: Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v
Yes. I actually just thought of something.
Say i have hormaguants 1.1" away from unit A and 6" away from unit B.
I roll a 4 on my charge. I charge into unit A. Now when I pile in, I move in such a way with my 6" pile in that I get within 1" of unit B. Even though I failed the charge, I still elected to charge them and ended my move within 1" of a unit in which I declared a charge, I just happen to get their with the pile in. Since I am within 1" inch of unit B, am I still able to fight unit B?
Resipsa131 wrote: Dumb question; if you declare a charge against 2 units and make one but don't make the other do you still get to finish your charge against the one you made?v
Yes. I actually just thought of something.
Say i have hormaguants 1.1" away from unit A and 6" away from unit B.
I roll a 4 on my charge. I charge into unit A. Now when I pile in, I move in such a way with my 6" pile in that I get within 1" of unit B. Even though I failed the charge, I still elected to charge them and ended my move within 1" of a unit in which I declared a charge, I just happen to get their with the pile in. Since I am within 1" inch of unit B, am I still able to fight unit B?
Yes. Same situation can occur when fighting twice. As long as you declared the unit as a target in the charge phase, it is eligible to be attacked in the fight phase that turn.
pinecone77 wrote: OK, I was noodling around, and I built this "No Stealers" list.....maybe it's the pain meds, but I think this looks playable Let me know what you think
Kronos: Supreme Command +1 CP, x3 Winged Tyrants, MRC, Dev, Glands, maybe one Balethorn(likely add Miasma to a second Tyrant for 1 CP).......aprox 552 points
I like your list! I was always more a shooty Tyranid player and like the concept. Especially the Carnifexen are very interesting with 4x DS and Acid Maw. Although I would probably go for the Devourers, because more shots with BS 4+ is better imho and they want to be close anyway to fight.
How many Termagants has each unit?
Oops x20, I wasn't kidding about the pain meds
Automatically Appended Next Post: One Brood of Termagants and the Carnifex are for screen removal, so the Supreme Command can DS. one or two Neuros can supply Smite support, and hopefully Psycher support. The Lictor is basicly a "tax". But she can stealth up on a Psycher, and Kronos their brains out. Then try to do something violent.
The Acid Maw just gives the Carnifex a CC option.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As Marmatag mentioned it likely needs some Hive Guard+ Impalers to be fully effective, so some points will need to be moved around.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the same list, swapped around to Jormongandr...
Hive Fleet: Jormondgandr, Brigade +9 CP
HQ: Neuro, x3
FA: Raveners, Twin Scything+ Spinefist, x3, x3
Heavy: Carnifex, x4 Deathspitters, Spore, Enhanced senses...115
Heavy; as above
Heavy: as above
I re-read the rules on the carnifexes. Are they really that bad?
Regular fex, 4 scything tallons, adrenal glands 87 points. Seems good to me. Very high threath and durabilaty for under 90 points, or am I wrong?
The thornback also looks descent. Chiting torn deals out mortal wounds on a 6. For 5 points that seems good enough. You are paying 3 points to ignore cover. Spikebanks for 2 points seems decent enough. Slap on some scything tallons to compensate the devourers. 105 points.
I do not know about the screamer killer. It just looks like a superior naked carnifex where you pay 23 points for the plasma attack. The minus to leadership I don't know how often comes up. Can be combined with rippers and the ripper stratagem to further decrease the leadership. It clocks in at 105 points.
Niiai wrote: I re-read the rules on the carnifexes. Are they really that bad?
Regular fex, 4 scything tallons, adrenal glands 87 points. Seems good to me. Very high threath and durabilaty for under 90 points, or am I wrong?
The thornback also looks descent. Chiting torn deals out mortal wounds on a 6. For 5 points that seems good enough. You are paying 3 points to ignore cover. Spikebanks for 2 points seems decent enough. Slap on some scything tallons to compensate the devourers. 105 points.
I do not know about the screamer killer. It just looks like a superior naked carnifex where you pay 23 points for the plasma attack. The minus to leadership I don't know how often comes up. Can be combined with rippers and the ripper stratagem to further decrease the leadership. It clocks in at 105 points.
I'm not sure, for the price...I think they are very nice...it's that most folks fill the Heavy slot with other units. I'll try putting together a Nidzilla list, and anyone who owns that many Carnifexen can test it out (I own 4, one Screamer, x3 magnetized)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Posted a Krakon "Nidzilla" "theorycraft" list...
I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
Dynas wrote: I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.
The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.
1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)
This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.
Dynas wrote: I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
I actually think this sounds fine. There are 2 ways they carnifexes can fail here. 1 is that they would cost to much. (loocking at you godfex.). The other way they can fail is if they fail to be a threath and your opponent can just ignore them.
The argument 'they can just be shot' can be aplied on most things, bar comming in from reserve. Something was getting shot turn 1.
Dynas wrote: I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.
The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.
1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)
This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.
ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.
2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?
Dynas wrote: I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.
The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.
1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)
This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.
ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.
2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?
6 Lascannons killed 2 carnifexes in a turn? That's very very unfotunate. The average damage output for a lascannon against a -1 to hit fex is about 1 wound. 6 lascannons won't drop one fex on average!
Dynas wrote: I've only ran Carnifexes once so far, and they are lascannon magnets. Even with Malanthrope -1, they got killed. Ran 3, plus OOE, 2 got popped turn one. The other turn 2, OOE made it into combat and popped a predator.
That makes it a resounding success. 2 Fexes are 200 points, 1/10 of an army. If all the enemy could manage was to take down 1/10 of your army with the strongest ranged phase they got (the first one), then your army was more than enough durable.
The rule to assess if a model carried his weight during a game is easy.
1) Sum the point cost of the units that fired at it each turn and divide by 3
2) Subtract 2 times the cost of the model
3) Add the damage inflicted by the model (in terms of points)
This gives you the final score of the model for that game. If it is positive, then that model did a good job.
Disclaimer: This method does not take objectives in consideration, and i still have not found a formula for the damage tanked in melee.
ok so 3 carnifex at 87 pts each.
2 Dev squads with 3 las cannons. Looks like 145 points.
Still not following your order of operations...
Did they do good or bad by your formula?
Dynas wrote:No, not both in one turn. one turn each, but they died before I got there. Might have been a smite in there as well.
Don't remember.
Ok let's look at it.
Assuming that a ranged model shoots on average for 3 turns, then an 87 point model is doing fine durability wise if he can survive fire from a combined total of 261 points.
Like you said, a dev squad with lascannons is 145 points . Two of them are 290 points. If a fex goes down to those 6 lascannon shots ( it shouldn't), it is borderline fine, since it means that on average your opponent is not getting a sufficent return for his investment in those lascannons.
That formula assumes that a model on average will require 3 times his cost in ranged shooting to go down, and during the course of the game will remove enemy models accounting for his cost. That is a score of zero. Absorbing more than that firepower gives you extra points as does inflicting more damage. You can have a good score by inflicting few damage but being extra durable, but only the damage received counts, not the one that you could theorically receive. If the model was never attacked at the end of the game and yet it failed to score 2 times his value in damage, then that model was not a credible threat and the opponent just decided to endure and ignore.
Another important consideration, and the one relevant to those carnifices, is that if a model absorbs a firepower higher than average, but fails to do any damage because he was focused early, that could still be fine. The score of the model is low, but the opponent is now suffering from insufficent efficency of his shooting phase, which means that other threats will have more time to rack up an higher score.
In this case that wasn't so good in the end, because he did with 290 points what needed 261. Below average, but not significantly. This means that they were not good targets, but were not bad either.
In short, expected result, close to the average. Nothing to see here.
Got myself a game in, Behemoth vs Ulthwé. First turn, his Farseer re-rolls a failed Guide and gets snake eyes. Lictor brought Hormagaunts in, between Brute Force and a re-rolled wound they killed him, eating his brains to recoup 1CP. 6" pileins entangled a DA exarch, which meant Old One Eye and Neurothrope could break cover and come over to stomp things. Kept throwing Insane Bravery at the over-extended Hormagaunts to keep the tarpit active. Behemoth plus Adrenal Glands is an outstanding combination. We called it in my favour when OOE had activated Adaptive Biology and was chasing down the vehicles.
How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.
Zimko wrote: How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.
Huh. So... how is it even useable? FAQ says you can't have a unit deployed in tunnels or orbit follow the beacon. What can Lictors even do?
Zimko wrote: How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.
Huh. So... how is it even useable? FAQ says you can't have a unit deployed in tunnels or orbit follow the beacon. What can Lictors even do?
Only through either call the brood or endless swarm. Or spore mines, gets you an extra 3".
Zimko wrote: How did you get the hormagaunts in with the lictor? With the FAQ, it's no longer legal... But it wouldn't be legal before that if you didn't use some kind of rule like the jorm strategem to get them into reserves.
lindsay40k wrote: Behemoth plus Adrenal Glands is an outstanding combination.
I have very much enjoyed Behemoth plus adrenal glands (and add Brute Force). It works great to heavily damage a rhino, then charge/surround it with hormagaunts and blow it up with Brute force, killing the guys inside.
pinecone77 wrote: Annother "fun Carnifex fact!" is if you run Jormongandr they have 2+ to help tank the Alpha.
Yeah, leviathan facts are not as funn as you have a hard time stacking synapse. However, most ffexes want run free (read advance) because of the relativly short range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I run 2 groups of 9 warriors. All adrenal glands. In each group 3 have boneswords and venom cannons, and 6 have scything tallons and deathspitters.
A prime is running with the. He has flesh hooks, adrenal glands, deatgspitters, and probably the norn crown (for backline hive guards) what melee weapon should I give him? Bone swords, or bone sword and whip. Keep in mind that wity the whip he can stick around til the end of the phase even if he drops to 0 wounds.
1. They are 5th edition warriors most of them. A big lack of swords.
2. I consider them a prime target for getting shot at. "Say what? They are mini lascannons, and heavy bolters al at BS3+? I think I will shoot at them." While it is only 12 points on each squad, I am saving those points.
Put a Carnifex next to them. Then the Fex gets the 6++, and draws fire that the warriors would get. If they ignore it charge them, and teach them better.
Sounds like overanalysis to me. Swords significantly add to their versatility. Part of playing Nids is threat overload, if Warriors are the obvious target then you should consider replacing whatever is in your list that isn't worth targeting.
Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots
I believe in the FAQ it said that created units do not count as part of a detachment. Does that mean spore mines from sporecysts or biovores do not get the hive fleet trait?
Zimko wrote: I believe in the FAQ it said that created units do not count as part of a detachment. Does that mean spore mines from sporecysts or biovores do not get the hive fleet trait?
Lance845 wrote: Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.
The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.
Movement is super key. Bobby G allows you to re-roll some dice.
ALL dice to hit and to wound, if you had a pulse when you made your list. And can't be targeted, is a badass in combat and provides 3 CP for showing up. But he can't hold a candle on the pre-retcon Lictor, who was ravaging tournaments before CA, no sir! Lictor was the most OP unit in the game, bar Malefic lords. Better than Celestine, or Conscripts! Pls, don't defend insanity, makes you part of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
C4790M wrote: Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots
Yeah I like to place mine to either block enemy infiltrators (FO Berserkers) or just box in the enemy, preferably while standing on an objective. Kronos feels like the obvious choice - Deepest Shadow and reroll 1's to hit.
The new faq gave all mucolids and spore mines the <hive fleet> key word so they would count.
I love the three sporocysts I use every game. They make their points back just from pumping out free models, and anything that tries to melee them regrets it if they can’t kill them in one turn. I initially ran them with barbed stranglers just to fill in points, and honestly I think they’re better than spitters most of the time: The 36” range can help a lot, especially on things like the new CA missions where you can’t always expect your models to drop where you want them.
Lance845 wrote: Yeah Pheromone trail and sporefield are basically crap atm.
The bizarre thing is 60 people thinking they were better than Big Bobby G before CA.
Movement is super key. Bobby G allows you to re-roll some dice.
ALL dice to hit and to wound, if you had a pulse when you made your list. And can't be targeted, is a badass in combat and provides 3 CP for showing up. But he can't hold a candle on the pre-retcon Lictor, who was ravaging tournaments before CA, no sir! Lictor was the most OP unit in the game, bar Malefic lords. Better than Celestine, or Conscripts! Pls, don't defend insanity, makes you part of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
C4790M wrote: Anyone tried sporocysts since the codex? I’ve just bought a second one - they’re super fun. I like dropping them directly on an objective and continually pumping out spores. They create a pretty effective no-go zone and require significant firepower to remove. Not sure on which fleet to go for with them though. Kraken gives them super speedy spore mines, Kronos lets them spread the deny bubble and makes them more accurate and jormungandr gives them a 3+ save with no drawbacks. Also which guns do people run? IMO deathspitters are the superior choice due to cost and guaranteed number of shots
Yeah I like to place mine to either block enemy infiltrators (FO Berserkers) or just box in the enemy, preferably while standing on an objective. Kronos feels like the obvious choice - Deepest Shadow and reroll 1's to hit.
Deepest shadow does not apply. Again, sporocysts do not gain sitw. Only synapse.
Edit: NVM! Deepest Shadow doesn't require anything but being a Kronos unit. Carry on!
So, DA stuff is now out. How do you think this will impact us? They seem to have a scary plasma fusilade per turn, extremely resilient terminators (-1 to wounds hurts a lot), good flyers with easy 4++ against shooting, high mobility on Ravenwing and in general a solid gunline thanks to the greenwing chapter tactic. They have a stratagem that allows any one unit to fall back and shoot. Lots of tricks and powers based on leadership.
Will this be a problematic matchup for us? Is it going to be easy? Will this move the meta in a direction that favors us or that hinders us?
Here are my thoughts:
1) They probably have the lowest model count out of all the SM, bar maybe the GK. This means no screening, which can be a death sentence. We can put a lot of stuff in meele quite fast, though this isn't a game over like it is for AM because of the forementioned stratagem, the abundant number of flying vehicles they have and the fact that they usually pack a discrete punch in meele.
2) As far as leadership goes we are really in a good spot, we don't have a lot of problems there.
3) They can remove a target like a Leman Russ from the game with as much as 180 points in shooting units. This is enormous, but luckily it is plasma based, so all our -1 to hits are a good protection.
4) Those flyers are indeed an issue, but not something we can't somehow take care of.
All in all they probably have a bad matchup against us. What about the effects on the meta?
I think that the main characteristic of a DA army is that it's firepower comes mainly from stratagems, not from models. This means that they don't make good gunlines, since they have a diminishing return on theyr investments in ranged firepower. On the other hand, they can present a credible firepower with a small investment in points, and use the rest of the points in melee components, making for the first army that works at it's best when adopting a balanced approach.
Honestly i don't think that they will have any impact on the meta, DA lists will be hard to play correctly and will not see enough play to warrant any change in other factions lists.
Awesome news, Azreals helm only affects bikes and infantry. That means that killing darkshrouds will be much much easier. I'll admit I was scared of a potential Fire Raptor Azreal Darkshroud list, but I guess not!
jifel wrote: Awesome news, Azreals helm only affects bikes and infantry. That means that killing darkshrouds will be much much easier. I'll admit I was scared of a potential Fire Raptor Azreal Darkshroud list, but I guess not!
Darkshrouds will advance each turn, meaning that they will always have a 4++.
Yep Kronos really paid off, it will surely alter the "meta" not a "must take", but the possability that it can show will haunt psych heavy lists. I guess word is not out yet...charging Magnus towards the Soul Hunger? 
I am feeling that the old "Dakafex" is not that good, I plan to try out Deathspitter fexen or Scythe+Gun fexen, I think those will still be usable. Too bad you did not have a Miasma Cannon for auto hits. 
Let me know what you think 
