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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?

It’s BS4+ and 3+. Not the old ‘deduct 7’ system. Took me a minute as well

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?

The bio plasma cannon is only on the exocrine. It costs the same but the exocrine gets +1 to hit when it doesn't move (switching it from bs4 to bs3)

 Astmeister wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.

9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.

Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?

@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.

Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.

Thats my point. this is a work around. You use the metabolic overdrive to move them and still advance. As long as you move within 3" they explode. With something like Kraken where you can roll 3 advance dice and take the highest you have a good chance of getting them in.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.

Then you played that wrong. Sporecysts do not daisy chain SiTW. They spread Synapse only.

Sporocyst specifically get the synapse keyword..doesn't that mean it becomes a synaps creature?

I do think the sporocyst need a FAQ that allows them to shoot at enemy units within 1 inch range. Now the enemy unit within 1 inch doesn't prevent them from shooting but that is not the same as allowing the sporocyst to shoot at that specific unit. RAW It can only shoot at other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dynas wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
OK. Just thought of something for spore mines and Mucloid spores. I had mine drop down, and charge from DS, the overwatch killed a unit of 6, crap saves. Instead of charging why not just DS them in, and us a CP for Metabolic overdrive to move them within 3". No charge = no overwtach.

9 spore mines for 90 points (or 3 mucloids for 60), 1 CP for Metabolic Overdrive.

Great way to get some mortal wounds without having to worry abou the crappy toughness/saves on the mines. What are your thoughts? Cost to much? ANy value?

@ Trace -maybe you can give it a try at your tourney with your Mucloids. i plan on trying it this weekned. Just curious to see what people think.

Mines deploy more than 12 inch away, so this is not possible I guess.

Thats my point. this is a work around. You use the metabolic overdrive to move them and still advance. As long as you move within 3" they explode. With something like Kraken where you can roll 3 advance dice and take the highest you have a good chance of getting them in.

Outside 12 inch + 3 inch move + 6 inch advance = outside 3 inch. Cannot do this..

Aaargh, that damn millimeter. Well, maybe just deploy them on your front line and see if you can speed them across. Looks like a flop. : /

 Dynas wrote:
Aaargh, that damn millimeter. Well, maybe just deploy them on your front line and see if you can speed them across. Looks like a flop. : /

Opportunistic advance lets us turn the 6" advance to 12" so we can if we are karaken


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So thinking of using this for our next tourniment 2000pts
Single detachment requirement with optional Fortification network

Army of Tyranids
2000/∞pt.

Detachments
[ 1 ]
<Kraken> (Brigade detachment) (2000)
HQ
[ 3 ]
Hive Tyrant (189) Cammo Skin Relic Psy: Smite, Catalyst, Horror
Prehencile pincer tail; Monstrous rending claws; Devourer with brainleech worms(x2); Adrenal glands; Wings;
Hive Tyrant (189) Psy: Smite, Catalyst, Scream
Prehencile pincer tail; Monstrous rending claws; Devourer with brainleech worms(x2); Adrenal glands; Wings;
Neurothrope (70) Warlord: Tenacious Survivor Psy: Catalyst/Smite
Claws and teeth;
Elites
[ 3 ]
6x - Hive Guard (288)
§ 6x Hive Guard ; Impaler cannon;
Lictor (45)
Flesh hooks; Grasping talons; Rending claws;
Lictor (45)
Flesh hooks; Grasping talons; Rending claws;
Troops
[ 6 ]
20x - Genestealers (261)
§ 19x Genestealer (13pt.); Rending claws; Scything talons; Toxin sacs;
§ 1x Genestealer (15pt.); Rending claws; Scything talons; Flesh hooks; Acid maw; Toxin sacs;
30x - Termagants (232)
§ 2x Termagant ; Fleshborer;
§ 28x Termagant ; Devourer;
3x - Ripper Swarms (33)
§ 3x Ripper Swarm ;
3x - Ripper Swarms (33)
§ 3x Ripper Swarm ;
3x - Ripper Swarms (33)
§ 3x Ripper Swarm ;
3x - Ripper Swarms (33)
§ 3x Ripper Swarm ;
Fast attack
[ 3 ]
Mucolid Spores (20)
§ 1x Mucolid spore ;
Mucolid Spores (20)
§ 1x Mucolid spore ;
9x - Spore Mines (90)
§ 9x Spore Mine ;

Heavy support
[ 5 ]
Biovores (36)
§ 1x Biovore ; Spore mine launcher;
Biovores (36)
§ 1x Biovore ; Spore mine launcher;
2x - Biovores (72)
§ 2x Biovore ; Spore mine launcher;
2x - Biovores (72)
§ 2x Biovore ; Spore mine launcher;
Trygon Prime (203)
Bio-electric pulse with containment spines; Massive scything talons(x3); Prehensile pincer tail; Adrenal glands;

So the plan is to reserve 10 out of my 20 units leaving as little as possable to alpha strike and using 2 mucilids and 2 ripper swarms to deny good DS positions.
My first turn will cost me 5CP as I Phormone trail my 9 sporemine unit then meta overdive it so it can move/advance then oppertunistic adv to dbl the d6 so I will get within 3" on anything but rolling triple 1's. Of course this will only happen if there is a jucy target if not I keep one lictor and the mines in reserve for the correct oppertunity.

The other 2 CP will be on my Div Gaunts or my have guard depending on need for single minded annihilation dbl fire. They will arrive with the Trygon Prime, 2 Flyrants, at least one lictor(depending on above) and the genestealers out of their nodes and run forward (if opportunistic adv was not used for the mines it will be used here) Keeping 2 Ripper units for obj capping and or linebreaker.

Looks very solid can anyone poke any holes in this?

shogun wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I had a game recently against Grey Knights, and ran 3 sporocysts. I dropped them down next to the marines while within range of each other with the last one within range of some warriors, and it let me daisy chain the shadow in the warp from the single actual unit of synapse critters to all of them. In a later game I used a Trygon Prime to do the same thing and pop surprise sitw across nearly their whole army.

Then you played that wrong. Sporecysts do not daisy chain SiTW. They spread Synapse only.

Sporocyst specifically get the synapse keyword..doesn't that mean it becomes a synaps creature?

I do think the sporocyst need a FAQ that allows them to shoot at enemy units within 1 inch range. Now the enemy unit within 1 inch doesn't prevent them from shooting but that is not the same as allowing the sporocyst to shoot at that specific unit. RAW It can only shoot at other units.

Double check your datasheets. All the other Synapse creatures have both rules SitW AND synapse. Also they have the synapse key word.

The sporocyst rule "Psychic Resonator" gives the unit the synapse keyword and the synapse special rule. It says nothing about SiTW. The SitW rule, does not mention the word synapse at all.

Dumb? Yes.
Should SitW be tied to Synaose? Yes.

But it's not. And the sporocyst doesn't get it.

 jifel wrote:
Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.

So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?

Well, do consider HVC>Miasma...

 jifel wrote:
Looks strong to me. Very light on shooting but certainly is fast enough to engage quickly anyways, should be fun and rewarding to play. Definitely would enjoy hearing your feedback.

So in ITC missions, what is the Hives thoughts on optimal Flyrant loadouts? Everyone seems to like DS Flyrants with MRC, AG, TS and a gun, but choosing between 2x Devourers and a HVC is very difficult for me. I've been running the Devs happily but has anyone had good success with HVC?

A lot of people take the devourers because when you mathhammer it out, volume of shots is king in this edition.

d3 shots is pitiful. Strength 9 will help you when shooting T8 targets.

But consider that the expected results versus T8, 3+:

2x Devourer: 12 shots, 0.89 wounds
HVC: D3 (2 expected) shots, 0.89 wounds

So in the optimal use case for the hvc - a T8 model, where you can really use that strength 9 - the massed shots of the devourer are equivalent. So you're specializing in a high strength weapon that sucks against everything but big bodies, and is only just as good as the devourer in that use case.

If the HVC was a -4 AP then it would be worth it at its current place. D3 shots is pathetic.

Sneggy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?

The bio plasma cannon is only on the exocrine. It costs the same but the exocrine gets +1 to hit when it doesn't move (switching it from bs4 to bs3)

It's also a heavy weapon, so if the exocrine moves it's actually BS 5+. Plus it only shoots half the number of shots if it moves.
So I do have to also question putting a 2xBio-Plasmic Cannon BS4+ in the table. It's a profile you'll only ever use with a stationary exocrine firing at a target with a -1 to hit buff, or once the exocrine has gone down a damage profile.

What that math doesn't consider is variance. IF the HVC wounds at all then it will deal 3, 6 or 9 damage. It is a very swingy weapon while volume of fire is much more consistent. The odds of devourers swinging into dealing 3+ damage is lower than the odds of a HVC dealing 3+ damage. And since dealing 3+ damage is what matters vs T8 targets, then the HVC comes out ahead.

It's basically realizing that the average damage isn't enough, so you look at the odds of doing above average damage.

We also shouldn't forget that HVC is not range 18".

Sorry I did mathhammer with the index values for HVC. They're just stuck in my brain i guess.

It's 9 -2 3 not 9 -1 d3.

So against T8, 3+, it's expecting 1.78 not 0.89.

Still, would prefer the more generally useful tool. Although i could see how the HVC might have a place in a list.

I don't think you can metabolic overdrive a unit that arrives from reserves. Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why does the table list Bio Plasma Canon BS4 and BS3 the same? Surely the BS3 version costs more?

The bio plasma cannon is only on the exocrine. It costs the same but the exocrine gets +1 to hit when it doesn't move (switching it from bs4 to bs3)

It's also a heavy weapon, so if the exocrine moves it's actually BS 5+. Plus it only shoots half the number of shots if it moves.
So I do have to also question putting a 2xBio-Plasmic Cannon BS4+ in the table. It's a profile you'll only ever use with a stationary exocrine firing at a target with a -1 to hit buff, or once the exocrine has gone down a damage profile.

Yeah, it was a mistake to have the bs4+ in there, I commented on that when I first posted the table.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.

No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sorry I did mathhammer with the index values for HVC. They're just stuck in my brain i guess.

It's 9 -2 3 not 9 -1 d3.

So against T8, 3+, it's expecting 1.78 not 0.89.

Still, would prefer the more generally useful tool. Although i could see how the HVC might have a place in a list.

Well think about it still way. If he has a 250pts t8 thing with 12 wounds and it takes 25pts to remove 1.5 wounds, thats on average of 8 HVC' for 200pts.

Also look at it in a 2nd way, a Lascannon is 25pts for 1 shot only but its D6 vs always 3, on average the HVC does more damage in the long game.

For me the HVC is highly worth it, i tend to take 2 Harpys.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.

No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."

You should try reading the rules before making assumptions about the rules.

Aren't those the rules for arriving from reinforcements? That is different from arriving via whatever rule is on the unit's datasheet. They aren't reinforcements. They're technically not even reserves. They just follow alternate deployment rules as per their datasheet.

Also, the snarky comment is uncalled for. Don't be an ass.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Arriving from reinforcements prevents you from moving or advancing any further that movement phase.

No it doesn't. It only happens at the end of the movement phase, which traditionally would in effect prevent further movement. If an ability would allow a second movement also at the end of the movement phase then sequencing rules come into play you deepstrike, then activate the ability and do your move.

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."

You should try reading the rules before making assumptions about the rules.

Im also inclined to think what they are saying is that even though its the end of the movement phase (but still the movement phase) you can not activate the newly deployed unit to move again with its normal m attribute. The stratagem is clearly an exception to this allowing you to do things you cannot normally do.

Just like pistols, assault, genestealers being able to charge after advancing.... Even though the base rules in all those cases say you cannot.

You can deepstrike and then use a stratagem to move again.

 Zimko wrote:
Aren't those the rules for arriving from reinforcements? That is different from arriving via whatever rule is on the unit's datasheet. They aren't reinforcements. They're technically not even reserves. They just follow alternate deployment rules as per their datasheet.

Also, the snarky comment is uncalled for. Don't be an ass.

Was not snark, people need to stop thinking they know the rules without reading the rules. I do my best not to comment on a rule without the rule infront of me, because I don't want to make an ass out of myself. Other people don't seem to have this compulsion.

Reserves are reinforcements.

Again.

READ THE RULES.

"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed."

Im also inclined to think what they are saying is that even though its the end of the movement phase (but still the movement phase) you can not activate the newly deployed unit to move again with its normal m attribute. The stratagem is clearly an exception to this allowing you to do things you cannot normally do.

Just like pistols, assault, genestealers being able to charge after advancing.... Even though the base rules in all those cases say you cannot.

You can deepstrike and then use a stratagem to move again.

Did you move that unit? No, they spent their entire movement phased "deploying to the battlefield", not moving.

Did that unit arrive as reinforcements? Yes. "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive"

You literally have zero allowance to use the stratagem.

I'd love to use MO after DS on things like mucolids and spore mines, combined with kraken double advance you would basically be spending 2CP for guaranteed MW. This is clearly not intended nor RAW.

Well thank you for pointing out our failings. But it's a pretty honest mistake. The datasheet tells you how to deploy a unit and normally the main rulebook rule is redundant information. In this one particular case though it does appear to matter.

I don't agree that the general rule for reinforcements overrides all other rules. MO doesn't work due to its wording. But other stratagems might work, and psychic abilities that allow movement can work as well. Wouldn't be surprised to see Tau get a Jump-Shoot-Jump stratagem.

Swarmlord clearly can use his ability on deepstrikes, for instance.

A few things I want to point out with on the topic of Metabolic Overdrive (MO):
Whilst deploying does prevent the unit from moving for the rest of the turn, this can be overridden by other abilities such as Hive Commander, suggesting that you can use MO.
On the other hand, the trigger for MO is “when a tyranids unit in you army moves”. As the unit has not moved, it has arrived from reinforcements, it can’t be selected for the stratagem.
On the other other hand, arriving from reinforcements counts as moving which might be enough to trigger it, but that is a very power-gamey interpretation and I wouldn’t feel comfortable using it.

 Zimko wrote:
Well thank you for pointing out our failings. But it's a pretty honest mistake. The datasheet tells you how to deploy a unit and normally the main rulebook rule is redundant information. In this one particular case though it does appear to matter.

It was not about being a dick and "pointing out our failings". If someone points out you may have a rule incorrectly, instead of just saying, "No, I'm right!", you should always say, "Oh, let me check". We all make mistakes, no one knows the rules 100%, not even those of us who visit YMDC daily and invest a lot of time in tournaments and discussions about tournaments. If you feel like you're being attacked when someone points out you may be doing something wrong, that's a sure sign that you're far too invested in your belief. This applies to life in general.

Dealing with people who refuse to approach the game with the second attitude rather than the first is insanely frustrating.

Okay.

There’s an argument that some may make that Warptime, being FAQ’d to be permissible on a unit that arrived from Reserve, puts a question mark on the cited RAW.

After all, the core rules say you can’t move any more DURING THE TURN THEY ARRIVE - and Warptime allows them to move in the psychic phase... of the turn they arrive.

Now, the reason this precedent does not apply IMO is that the passage goes on to say THEIR ENTIRE MOVEMENT PHASE IS USED IN DEPLOYING TO THE BATTLEFIELD.

So, whilst there has been a de facto rewrite of the ‘no more moving in the whole turn’ by the specific example of Warptime, there’s not yet a precedent - though an FAQ may change that - enabling Metabolic Overdrive to change the fact that the unit’s movement phase has concluded by arriving from reserve.

8ed is a decent enough rules system with user-unfriendly formatting that gets rid of a whole chapter of USRs in favor of frontloaded intro play that requires twice as much back and forth looking up things to play beyond that.

So the swarmlord can make a unit move again after deepstrike why can't the stratigum?

Which fleet for a Flyrant Supreme Command? RC and 2 Dev. I'm thinking Behemoth.

xmbk wrote:
Which fleet for a Flyrant Supreme Command? RC and 2 Dev. I'm thinking Behemoth.

I'd say kraken for shoot assault fall back shoot and assault again.

How much is stuff staying tied up for 2 combats with Flyrants? Losing charge isn't that big a deal, but not making the charge on DS is.

Can reroll for one, but with three the free rerolls is huge. Can always CP the one who rolls 6-1.

Timeshadow wrote:
So the swarmlord can make a unit move again after deepstrike why can't the stratigum?

Because Swarmlord does his ability in the Shooting phase. Whereas the Strategem takes place in the movement phase, and DS occurs at the end of the movement phase.