I don't think DA are an issue. The 4++ Flyers would get eaten alive by rending claw flyrants. They might be an issue for Jorm who mostly won't have flyers.
The mass plasma is only an issue if they arn't getting tied up in melee, which we are the grand masters of. Yeah, for CP they can step out and shoot again... but only with what survives and only 1 unit. Not enough to be a threat.
I think we’ll see fewer of some 2W units, but not by much. DA will scarecrow a cup of Terminators out of the meta but every Primaris improvement will add a bucket. The 2W unit curve will continue to grow (maybe not in competitive), and when a Primaris Rhino and DP come out, it’ll spike hard.
Malanthrope gets a boost in usefulness. I’d expect DA Plasma lists to have a plan to take out Venoms. Not so easy with Mallie.
One possable build for DA will be to use Incepters(?) the ones who DS with Twin guns, they Can take Plasma. So that could be a way for DA to get plasma where they want it, when they want it.
How are peoples experiences with the trygon? In my experience it is not that good in melee as it used to be in say, 5th edition. They are also very wunerable to powerfists, from champions or dreadnoughts.
Niiai wrote: How are peoples experiences with the trygon? In my experience it is not that good in melee as it used to be in say, 5th edition. They are also very wunerable to powerfists, from champions or dreadnoughts.
Seems like the definition of glass hammer. It's massive scathing talons are pretty brutal against the right targets, but middling wounds and toughness and lack of an invuln make it fragile to return blows from high damage weapons. Fortunately it also has great utility as a transport of sorts for Devilgants and genestealers. At 170 pts it doesn't seem too overpriced. The trick to me is making sure you arrive with enough other threats at the same time to give them a chance to get in and do their work. And hope you roll well for the initial charge from deepstrike of course
It averages 5 hits at S7 and Dd6 (Plus whatever tail weapon). If you're fighting something important you can spend 1CP to reroll wounds. Against most things you should end up doing AT LEAST 3-7 damage on average, but doing 10+ is pretty high on the possible outcomes for a lot of targets.
My experience is that it arrives with dev gants and either eats firepower for the Flyrants, or it gets ignored and puts a lot of damage on whatever it touches. They're actually pretty fast with 9", and even when hitting on 5s they have enough attacks that you should get 2-3 hits, enough to do some damage.
They're definitely glass hammers, but when used in conjunction with flyrants they're pretty good. Definitely no good on their own.
A behemoth Tyrgon prime with the Sycthes of Tyran is an absolute beast.
6 attacks hitting on 3, getting extra swings on a 6, and STR8.
He looses his reroll 1's for the chance at extra attacks and +1 str, good trade in my opinion, as it makes him wound most vehicles on a 3 and T8 on a 4.
Here is a updated page one and a first pass on page 2.
Spoiler:
Looking for feed back. Anything you guys want me to try to fit on here? Anything you want to suggest for lay out? Whats good whats bad? (I see that one line is out of place on page 2, it's fixed already)
I feel like the Trygon Prime is a good investment over a normal Trygon if you’re using it for taxi service in a non Jorm list. It gives you the synapse to light things up without penalty and ignore morale, and you can keep a wall of gants to prevent assaults and then glorious intervention with the Prime. The 12 shot gun can get nasty too with the extra wound stratagem on certain targets.
In a Jorm list though you can just bring along a Broodlord for the synapse, and make it your warlord for the nasty Jorm trait.
I disagree. Flyrant have an 18" synapse, neurothropes can easily advance into 12" synapse. There's no need to pay 30 points to give a Trygon synapse (and 6 more ranged shots bit honestly, when has that mattered?). The only reason I MIGHT take a prime is to make it a character to give it a relic. But the only relic I would do that for is chameleonic skin and that is reserved for a flyrant.
OP updated with first and second page, full page and small format, images for the quick reference sheet. Still working on fillable PDF form versions of the document. But if you download GIMP (free photoshop) you can use the text tool to fill in the form in the mean time.
I wouldn't invest in a Trygon prime, it's just going to get annihilated anyway. I have never seen a Trygon live past the turn it popped out, in 8th. If Lictors weren't nerfed I would have switched to them completely.
That said I do model my Trygons to look like primes because they look cooler.
I've ran Tyrgons, Primes, and Tyrants together in several games now. I find Primes to not be worth the points for the upgrade. They just don't survive long enough for it to matter. In general they do damage if they make the turn 1 charge, otherwise they evaporate. When they make that charge they tend to kill whatever I charged. The turn things tunnel in I can always make sure a Neurothrope or Hive Tyrant (or Swarmy) is close enough to provide synapse. Tyrgons attract so much firepower and are frail enough that I cannot rely on the Prime to give synapse the turn after my drop arrives-he is normally dead by then.
When I used a Prime for my devilgaunts, I did like the flexability he gave me, but with how being out of synapse works now, there are very few situations were I can't work around it, either by having the 'gaunts near what I want to nuke or by bringing synapse over to take care of them.
Anyone experimented with en masse jormungandr ambushes? I haven’t actually tested physically deploying them yet, but I was thinking about using a squad of raveners to drop 2 stealer squads and a devgant bomb in the enemies face, along with some other immediate threats. Thoughts on this?
Comes out to 1999 points. Basically I spend 4 CP to put both stealer squads, the devgants and the broodlord in reserve and then attempt to bamboozle the opponent with target saturation. Sporocysts, Mawloc and Biovores start to rack up mortal wounds, the devgants/tyrant strip away the bubble wrap and the genestealers sit pretty with their 3+ save and catalyst (on one squad), ready to move into position next turn. Yet to test it though, could be a total dud list
I'd drop the mawloc for a second unit of raveners and 2 units of rippers.
You don't have enough drops on the table to deep strike the units you want. with 2 more rippers on the table you will have 11 on the table and 11 deep strikers. 2x ravener, 2x stealers, termies, broodlord, pyrovore, red terror, WHT, 2x sporocyst
On the same topic as that Jorm idea, I've been thinking about using 3 mawlocs to block an enemy's ability to engage my forces. You could force and opponent to stay around 9" away from your deep strikers with any counter-assault units they have. Even after they shoot down 3 mawlocs, they should still need something like a 7" charge, since they can't move through the mawlocs.
Well what ends up happening is your raveners come in about 12" away.
The Devourer termagaunts and the pyrovore go in front of them, completely screening them and anything behind them from assault while blowing their double tap load into whatever chaff or lighter high damage infantry you want to weaken.
The stealers are behind the raveners on either flank, and with a 3+/5+ are rather durable. You can either catalyst one of the stealer squads or the gaunts depending on how much anti-infantry shooting your opponent has.
Turn 2 your basically free to advance and charge with both stealer units.
I havent had the chance to put my jorm list to the test yet. I just got some more warriors/hive guard in the mail. Hoping to have it all built to test this weekend. Il let the thread know how it goes if i do.
Eihnlazer wrote: I'd drop the mawloc for a second unit of raveners and 2 units of rippers.
You don't have enough drops on the table to deep strike the units you want. with 2 more rippers on the table you will have 11 on the table and 11 deep strikers. 2x ravener, 2x stealers, termies, broodlord, pyrovore, red terror, WHT, 2x sporocyst
Ah sorry, forgot to mention that the rippers start on the table, as hidden as possible to prevent surprise tabling.
On the board: Neurothrope, Horms, Terms, Rippers, Pyro, Pyro, Mucolid, Mucolid, Biovore, Biovore (ten total)
Off the board: Broodlord, Tyrant, Stealers, Stealers, Devgants, Red Terror, Raveners, Mawloc, Sporocyst, Sporocyst (ten total)
If I drop the mawloc I’d need to take another HS to keep the brigade and I don’t have a third biovore :( Without the brigade I don’t get enough CP for the tunnel shenanigans
Can one Mawlock bring multiple units via Jormungandr Stratagem in different turns and at different places?
I mean if you let him deep strike first turn, reburrow 2nd turn and deep strike again 3rd turn?
Astmeister wrote: Can one Mawlock bring multiple units via Jormungandr Stratagem in different turns and at different places?
I mean if you let him deep strike first turn, reburrow 2nd turn and deep strike again 3rd turn?
I don’t see anything in the wording preventing it so go for it!
Astmeister wrote: Can one Mawlock bring multiple units via Jormungandr Stratagem in different turns and at different places?
I mean if you let him deep strike first turn, reburrow 2nd turn and deep strike again 3rd turn?
I don’t see anything in the wording preventing it so go for it!
Cool. It could be worth it in Maelstrom missions, where you want to place your troops all over the board.
I'm getting everything prepared to run Swarmlord + 'stealers + devilgants in a Jormundr drop. I'm looking at running 2 'stealer squads and a big (25+) Termagant squad. I'm wondering if it is feasible to bring one of the 'stealer squads and the 'gants in with the same unit of Raveners. Do they fit? should I run 4 models in that Ravener squad?
babelfish wrote: I'm getting everything prepared to run Swarmlord + 'stealers + devilgants in a Jormundr drop. I'm looking at running 2 'stealer squads and a big (25+) Termagant squad. I'm wondering if it is feasible to bring one of the 'stealer squads and the 'gants in with the same unit of Raveners. Do they fit? should I run 4 models in that Ravener squad?
I'm pretty sure I test fit 40 stealers and 30 gants around 3x40mm bases, 2" apart, but why not just place them down and check it yourself?
Astmeister wrote: Can one Mawlock bring multiple units via Jormungandr Stratagem in different turns and at different places?
I mean if you let him deep strike first turn, reburrow 2nd turn and deep strike again 3rd turn?
If you drop a single Mawloc don't expect it to be able to reburrow. The only time I've ever got one to pop up twice in a game was when I dropped a trygon and a bunch of other stuff in tyrannocytes with it and swamped them and even then they had a good go at bringing it down. In isolation it's a bullet magnet for units designed to kill T6 and above units and won't put up much of a show against weapons that do more than single wounds.
I'm partecipating in a a league at my FLGS with the following rules for the initial list:
- No unique chars
- 1 patrol detachment only
- No models above 220 points
- 1000 points
- No relics
- The general must be narratively in line with a patrol (so no tyrants)
Since there will be many new players and we want to make it really easygoing, i'm thinking that the time has come for me to try Hydra!
What do you think? It should be mildly effective at covering the "Tyranid swarm" experience during the league while not being excessively challenging on the table.
Just got 2 Carnifex Brood pack and want to make a couple dakkafexes to round out my herd of 7 plus OOE. I don’t understand why you can’t run spores on thornbacks. I bet if you had say 7 thornbacks and a Malanthrope or Venomthropes they would out perform a Dakkafex but without the -1 my opponent is going to shoot the thornbacks first and then focus down the -1 spore Carnifex. What do you guys think?
swarmlord gives you a guaranteed first turn charge with kraken genestealers so there that. He's also a got 2 powers a turn, 2 denies a turn, and can kill most characters in one round of combat.
You can either deep strike him in a tyranocyte or walk him up the board. 300 points is alot but if you tie up or kill more than that with your first turn charge its worth it.
Pair him up with a devilbomb to clear chaff out of the way and you'll be a happy player.
Resipsa131 wrote: Just got 2 Carnifex Brood pack and want to make a couple dakkafexes to round out my herd of 7 plus OOE. I don’t understand why you can’t run spores on thornbacks. I bet if you had say 7 thornbacks and a Malanthrope or Venomthropes they would out perform a Dakkafex but without the -1 my opponent is going to shoot the thornbacks first and then focus down the -1 spore Carnifex. What do you guys think?
Quick question - with what kind of bases did those 2 carnifexes come with? Classical 60 mm, or the oval ones like in that deathstorm starter box? As of right now it is unclear what kind of bases you should put your carnies on, because even in the codex they have different bases.
Resipsa131 wrote: Just got 2 Carnifex Brood pack and want to make a couple dakkafexes to round out my herd of 7 plus OOE. I don’t understand why you can’t run spores on thornbacks. I bet if you had say 7 thornbacks and a Malanthrope or Venomthropes they would out perform a Dakkafex but without the -1 my opponent is going to shoot the thornbacks first and then focus down the -1 spore Carnifex. What do you guys think?
Quick question - with what kind of bases did those 2 carnifexes come with? Classical 60 mm, or the oval ones like in that deathstorm starter box? As of right now it is unclear what kind of bases you should put your carnies on, because even in the codex they have different bases.
The regular carnifex kits come on 60mm rounds. It's only the deathstorm box that had the oval. (Deathstorm was also the most recent release)
babelfish wrote: I'm getting everything prepared to run Swarmlord + 'stealers + devilgants in a Jormundr drop. I'm looking at running 2 'stealer squads and a big (25+) Termagant squad. I'm wondering if it is feasible to bring one of the 'stealer squads and the 'gants in with the same unit of Raveners. Do they fit? should I run 4 models in that Ravener squad?
I'm pretty sure I test fit 40 stealers and 30 gants around 3x40mm bases, 2" apart, but why not just place them down and check it yourself?
Oh, I know that I can make them fit on my kitchen table, but what fits/works in theory doesn't always work in practice, so I wanted to see if anyone had experience on the tabletop.
Resipsa131 wrote: Just got 2 Carnifex Brood pack and want to make a couple dakkafexes to round out my herd of 7 plus OOE. I don’t understand why you can’t run spores on thornbacks. I bet if you had say 7 thornbacks and a Malanthrope or Venomthropes they would out perform a Dakkafex but without the -1 my opponent is going to shoot the thornbacks first and then focus down the -1 spore Carnifex. What do you guys think?
Quick question - with what kind of bases did those 2 carnifexes come with? Classical 60 mm, or the oval ones like in that deathstorm starter box? As of right now it is unclear what kind of bases you should put your carnies on, because even in the codex they have different bases.
3 Flyrants in a Behemoth Supreme HQ (Devourers, RC)
Everything else Jormie:
Zoanthrope
Tyranid Prime
OOE
5 Fexes with mixed weapons
1 Ripper Swarm
2 units of Warriors (x4/x5) with Swords and Deathspitters, dropping in with
2x3 Raveners with Deathspitters.
Go second whenever I can, leaving only T7/2+/-1 to hit fexes to shoot.
Your units arrive in manageable chunks and those fexes are going to take a beating if the enemy get's first turn. You are better off removing the warriors and raveners and totally go all in with the monsters so that every low strength weapon is forced to shoot at a monster. I also would use the 'kraken' fleet for your hive tyrants. Getting out of close combat and assault another units makes them very flexible.
Spoletta wrote:I'm partecipating in a a league at my FLGS with the following rules for the initial list:
- No unique chars
- 1 patrol detachment only
- No models above 220 points
- 1000 points
- No relics
- The general must be narratively in line with a patrol (so no tyrants)
Since there will be many new players and we want to make it really easygoing, i'm thinking that the time has come for me to try Hydra!
What do you think? It should be mildly effective at covering the "Tyranid swarm" experience during the league while not being excessively challenging on the table.
It's a nice casual armylist and tyranids can do really well at low point games. But any decent shooty list will give you problems because the tyranid warriors are really bullet magnets and your only hard hitting unit. First turn, the enemy can take down 5 warriors easily and at the second turn you could be into trouble. You can double the warriors movement with the overdrive stratagem but that means the venomthropes cannot keep up.
Eldarsif wrote:What are people's current opinion on Swarmlords? Have a Hive Tyrant box and tempted to make one.
It's to expensive to be walking around on the field so either drop him in with a tyrannocyte and build you armylist around him (hive commander), or don't bother. Best to use devourer gaunts to remove any bubble wrap and move in the genestealers with the hive commander ability.
3 Flyrants in a Behemoth Supreme HQ (Devourers, RC)
Everything else Jormie:
Zoanthrope
Tyranid Prime
OOE
5 Fexes with mixed weapons
1 Ripper Swarm
2 units of Warriors (x4/x5) with Swords and Deathspitters, dropping in with
2x3 Raveners with Deathspitters.
Go second whenever I can, leaving only T7/2+/-1 to hit fexes to shoot.
Your units arrive in manageable chunks and those fexes are going to take a beating if the enemy get's first turn. You are better off removing the warriors and raveners and totally go all in with the monsters so that every low strength weapon is forced to shoot at a monster. I also would use the 'kraken' fleet for your hive tyrants. Getting out of close combat and assault another units makes them very flexible.
Spoletta wrote:I'm partecipating in a a league at my FLGS with the following rules for the initial list:
- No unique chars
- 1 patrol detachment only
- No models above 220 points
- 1000 points
- No relics
- The general must be narratively in line with a patrol (so no tyrants)
Since there will be many new players and we want to make it really easygoing, i'm thinking that the time has come for me to try Hydra!
What do you think? It should be mildly effective at covering the "Tyranid swarm" experience during the league while not being excessively challenging on the table.
It's a nice casual armylist and tyranids can do really well at low point games. But any decent shooty list will give you problems because the tyranid warriors are really bullet magnets and your only hard hitting unit. First turn, the enemy can take down 5 warriors easily and at the second turn you could be into trouble. You can double the warriors movement with the overdrive stratagem but that means the venomthropes cannot keep up.
Eldarsif wrote:What are people's current opinion on Swarmlords? Have a Hive Tyrant box and tempted to make one.
It's to expensive to be walking around on the field so either drop him in with a tyrannocyte and build you armylist around him (hive commander), or don't bother. Best to use devourer gaunts to remove any bubble wrap and move in the genestealers with the hive commander ability.
This shouldn't be a parameter for selecting the list, but it's worth nothing that in the league there are no AM or Eldar. As far as i remeber we have BA, DA, GK, Khorne, Thousand sons, Necron, and Tau.
killerpenguin wrote: Do tyranids get any top positions in tournaments with our new codex?
Tyranids are fast now and got great board control, but in a tournament setting it got 3 problems:
1: Tyranids can take a decent amount of incoming fire but it could not be enough to ensure that solid win and getting full tournament points. Astra M shooting with first turn still hurts.
2: Time. Lots of models movement and assault can really drain the time and tyranid armies can really use round 4/5 to tip the balance to get that full massacre.
3: enemy armies adjusting and making sure tyranid units cannot reach the enemy units behind the bubble wrap at round 1 or 2. For example; Torpedo 3 genestealer units forward is very straightforward and so will be the tactics to counter something like that.
It's still "early days" but, I think I can make some predictions. Tyranids can make the top 16, easy, top 8, you need some skill. and a little luck (for example making Invuln saves) top 4? That will require playing error free. The basis for this "style" is waiting for, and exploiting a foes error(s).
The problem, is you're playing top foes. So GW did a good job on balance, it's just that some codexes have a little "extra". And time, that is an issue for tournies in general.
Tyranids won a GT using the 6th ed Codex. They can definitely win a GT now, they just need a very creative and very good player at the helm. (And some good rolls)
3 Flyrants in a Behemoth Supreme HQ (Devourers, RC)
Everything else Jormie:
Zoanthrope
Tyranid Prime
OOE
5 Fexes with mixed weapons
1 Ripper Swarm
2 units of Warriors (x4/x5) with Swords and Deathspitters, dropping in with
2x3 Raveners with Deathspitters.
Go second whenever I can, leaving only T7/2+/-1 to hit fexes to shoot.
Your units arrive in manageable chunks and those fexes are going to take a beating if the enemy get's first turn. You are better off removing the warriors and raveners and totally go all in with the monsters so that every low strength weapon is forced to shoot at a monster. I also would use the 'kraken' fleet for your hive tyrants. Getting out of close combat and assault another units makes them very flexible.
Why will they arrive in chunks? Other than the Rippers, everything shows up turn 1. My Flyrants don't normally end up stuck in combat, but I've seen others talk about this. Are we talking tarpit countercharges? What type of unit/situation is tarpitting Flyrants?
I tweaked it with another Ripper Swarm, to claim objectives better.
I absolutely think nids can win a GT with our book. Some of it will be matchups and missions, and of course a bit of luck (No one wins a GT if the dice decide to abandon them). We don't always have the best matchups, but we are SUPER strong at board and objective control, meaning we can play to missions and win. Particularly now that there are events that are going entirely off of points, and being tabled doesn't guarantee a major win.
Dark reaper spam is dangerous, but of all the armies out there we're among the best off against it. AM is a super hard matchup, but it's one of those where it only takes one big unit getting into their lines to end the game. Marines are generally a good matchup for us, and I don't see much difference with BA or DA. Chaos is entirely down to what they build, some matchups are easy, some are a bit rougher, but it is never as bad as AM can be.
This is all just my opinion, and even among nid players who play competitively there is a lot of differing opinion on everything.
@traceoftoxin I agree with a lot of what you say. Chaos is the big boogeyman in the meta right now and I feel we struggle against Alpha Legion with nurglings if we go second. But, a lot of people do to be fair. Guard I feel like we can weather relatively well with a Malanthropes protection, as -1 can be very bad for them, but they still shoot a lot. As you say, getting a big unit in to tie them up is crucial. Eldar I think we are relatively well adapted against as we can close with them so quickly, and Eldar anti horde is generally not super effective. What they do have is usualky in more fragile units. Notably it's either 12" Ranger or S3, meaning vs Stealers it's going to be hard to use efficiently. One other army that I've played a lot is the GK/IG soup list, which can be very potent.
3 Flyrants in a Behemoth Supreme HQ (Devourers, RC)
Everything else Jormie:
Zoanthrope
Tyranid Prime
OOE
5 Fexes with mixed weapons
1 Ripper Swarm
2 units of Warriors (x4/x5) with Swords and Deathspitters, dropping in with
2x3 Raveners with Deathspitters.
Go second whenever I can, leaving only T7/2+/-1 to hit fexes to shoot.
Your units arrive in manageable chunks and those fexes are going to take a beating if the enemy get's first turn. You are better off removing the warriors and raveners and totally go all in with the monsters so that every low strength weapon is forced to shoot at a monster. I also would use the 'kraken' fleet for your hive tyrants. Getting out of close combat and assault another units makes them very flexible.
Why will they arrive in chunks? Other than the Rippers, everything shows up turn 1. My Flyrants don't normally end up stuck in combat, but I've seen others talk about this. Are we talking tarpit countercharges? What type of unit/situation is tarpitting Flyrants?
I tweaked it with another Ripper Swarm, to claim objectives better.
Assaulting something juicy at 9 inch 'deep strike' range is wishful thinking. All armies should have some cheap bubble wrap to counter this. So when the enemy starts first the will be shooting at the carnifexes and most likely take down two. It only takes two cheap units that advance forward to push the deep strike bubble back. Hive Tyrants + warriors drop in but the remaining carnifexes are still behind, after one movement phase. Being on the field doesn't mean your army is not moving forward in chunks.
I once used 3 wyverns to countercharge different targets. First shot with them (-1 to hit for moving) and then assaulted a few big targets. To take down a Toughness 6, 12 wound, 3+ save model in one assault phase you either need a lot of lucky dice or Magnus or other close combat powertool.
Traceoftoxin wrote:I absolutely think nids can win a GT with our book. Some of it will be matchups and missions, and of course a bit of luck (No one wins a GT if the dice decide to abandon them). We don't always have the best matchups, but we are SUPER strong at board and objective control, meaning we can play to missions and win. Particularly now that there are events that are going entirely off of points, and being tabled doesn't guarantee a major win.
Dark reaper spam is dangerous, but of all the armies out there we're among the best off against it. AM is a super hard matchup, but it's one of those where it only takes one big unit getting into their lines to end the game. Marines are generally a good matchup for us, and I don't see much difference with BA or DA. Chaos is entirely down to what they build, some matchups are easy, some are a bit rougher, but it is never as bad as AM can be.
This is all just my opinion, and even among nid players who play competitively there is a lot of differing opinion on everything.
Tyranids got the tools to win a GT with lucky opponents and/or dice. But shooting is ,and always will be better then close combat. And other armies are better at that. Also don't forget that tyranids armies could be facing a lot more other tyranid players and it will be bloody (and fun!) but hard to achieve a full massacre win.
Can I put the Kraken chameleon skin relic thingie onto the death leaper?
Apart from being fun, maybe it would take some heat off other targets in the shooting phase if the deathleaper ends up near a juicy unprotected target.
I am I right in thinking the pheromone trail does not work on pyrovores because there is no way to get them into reserve?
Horms reached enemy lines turn one but saviour protocols meant they couldn't do much more than force some pathfinders to fall back. Both units put down, and a Commander drops next to T-fex and drops her to 2W.
T-fex and Neurothrope nuke commander. OOE rolls 12 to reach enemy line, falls on his arse. Warriors engage Drone unit, 3CP enable them to destroy it, time up with me getting libebreajed to equalise.
Think this quick games list needs a dakkafex. Or a deep striker.
Jasper wrote: Can I put the Kraken chameleon skin relic thingie onto the death leaper?
Apart from being fun, maybe it would take some heat off other targets in the shooting phase if the deathleaper ends up near a juicy unprotected target.
I am I right in thinking the pheromone trail does not work on pyrovores because there is no way to get them into reserve?
Hydra Endless Swarm.
It's the single best use of both stratagems in my opinion. You just keep dropping durable, horrible monsters right on their doorstep.
Tyranids got the tools to win a GT with lucky opponents and/or dice. But shooting is ,and always will be better then close combat. And other armies are better at that. Also don't forget that tyranids armies could be facing a lot more other tyranid players and it will be bloody (and fun!) but hard to achieve a full massacre win.
I actually disagree. Proper use of assault can completely stop a shooting army in its tracks. My last match of the GT against AM, if I hadn't cast smite, I would've been able to use his screening units to prevent any shooting at 29 horms and 19 genestealers, popped overrun and adrenaline rush during HIS turn, wipe out his 30 man conscript squad, then be into his army on my turn 2 en masse. The new assault movement rules are SO strong, that properly engaging in assault will make it so the enemy army cannot do anything at all. I've run through 1000+ points of shooting armies with just 1 unit of 19 Genestealers by properly wrapping up units so enemies can't fall back. Shooting allows you to do damage without receiving damage, but assault not only allows you to do damage, it also allows you to shut down an opponent's ability to move, shoot and assault. The biggest thing that is keeping pure shooty armies working atm is criminally undercosted AM units. No other army can stand up to a good assault heavy army with combined arms using only shooting.
8th supremely rewards shooting heavy with a strong counter assault, or assault heavy with screen removal shooting.
Jasper wrote: Can I put the Kraken chameleon skin relic thingie onto the death leaper?
Apart from being fun, maybe it would take some heat off other targets in the shooting phase if the deathleaper ends up near a juicy unprotected target.
I am I right in thinking the pheromone trail does not work on pyrovores because there is no way to get them into reserve?
Hydra Endless Swarm.
It's the single best use of both stratagems in my opinion. You just keep dropping durable, horrible monsters right on their doorstep.
If you are hydra it makes sence to have some units around the same amount of point to resurect them. Say 240 points. 30 devilgaunts, 20 genestealers, some amount of warriors and/or electro hive guards.
Were i to go hydra i would pack a trygon with a devilgaunt bomb. A drop pod full of max sized pyrovores and bring the swarmlord/tyrant guard with some genestealers. Save some points to resurrect whatever gets killed and place a couple lictors in reserve to drop them where i need them.
Its easy enough for an opponent to decide to wipe out your stealers. But its just gotta be disheartening to have them come back at full strengththe next turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Same with the tyrant guard doubling up the ablative wounds on the sl. The devil gaunt bomb doing a second salvo. The pyrovores just burning everything down. Its all aweful.
Is anyone else using the Sporefield Stratagem. I'm finding reserving the points for 2 minimum units of mines is extremely useful as many armies have either deepstrike elements or infiltrating screens to screen out our deepstrikers. Because of the timing on sporefield it gets to go before everything else that infiltrates except ratlings (with which it must roll off, so still 50/50). It completely shuts down the ability of Alpha legion to use forward operatives after they have already spent the command points and prevents Alaitoc Rangers from pushing back ravener/trygon drops. Also prevents any first turn deepstrikes against our army should that protection be needed for, say, a Kronos castle.
Sporefield strat is pretty much useless. If your saving points for spores, just buy spore mines that you can deep strike in for free anyway.
Fun combo with kraken and swarmlord is on turn 2 after your stealers are in the enemy lines to deep strike 9 spore mines and have swarmy give them a move. they are now 4-3 inch's away and can guarantee a charge on something tied up and deal 10 mortal wounds with onslaught.
You can't deepstrike the spores in for free before other peoples infiltrators and if you are doing that they count against tactical reserves, sporefield doesn't. It's very powerful because of the timing.
Niiai wrote: But is that worth 3 stratagem points?
No. It's not.
If the spore mines didn't cost points so you could deploy 120 points of mines for 3 CP it would be perfectly reasonable and pretty great. A super awesome trade off from mid game valuable CP for pre game screening. But they are not free and it's not worth 3 CP. It's probably actually worth 1 if you have to pay for them.
3 Flyrants in a Behemoth Supreme HQ (Devourers, RC)
Everything else Jormie:
Zoanthrope
Tyranid Prime
OOE
5 Fexes with mixed weapons
1 Ripper Swarm
2 units of Warriors (x4/x5) with Swords and Deathspitters, dropping in with
2x3 Raveners with Deathspitters.
Go second whenever I can, leaving only T7/2+/-1 to hit fexes to shoot.
Your units arrive in manageable chunks and those fexes are going to take a beating if the enemy get's first turn. You are better off removing the warriors and raveners and totally go all in with the monsters so that every low strength weapon is forced to shoot at a monster. I also would use the 'kraken' fleet for your hive tyrants. Getting out of close combat and assault another units makes them very flexible.
Why will they arrive in chunks? Other than the Rippers, everything shows up turn 1. My Flyrants don't normally end up stuck in combat, but I've seen others talk about this. Are we talking tarpit countercharges? What type of unit/situation is tarpitting Flyrants?
I tweaked it with another Ripper Swarm, to claim objectives better.
Assaulting something juicy at 9 inch 'deep strike' range is wishful thinking. All armies should have some cheap bubble wrap to counter this. So when the enemy starts first the will be shooting at the carnifexes and most likely take down two. It only takes two cheap units that advance forward to push the deep strike bubble back. Hive Tyrants + warriors drop in but the remaining carnifexes are still behind, after one movement phase. Being on the field doesn't mean your army is not moving forward in chunks.
I once used 3 wyverns to countercharge different targets. First shot with them (-1 to hit for moving) and then assaulted a few big targets. To take down a Toughness 6, 12 wound, 3+ save model in one assault phase you either need a lot of lucky dice or Magnus or other close combat powertool.
Couple of points. Solid bubbles are certainly problematic, but it's not as if every army we face has a tight bubblewrap. Certainly true that AM castles are one of the toughest out there right now, though good missions make them less of a concern. But that begs the question of how Kraken really helps against that. Because Behemoth helps even if you have to peel some wrapping, and also on subsequent turns. Sounds like you made a good play with your Wyverns, but I can't say I'm building a list around Wyvern countercharges. That's more of a tactics issue. Not saying Kraken is bad, but neither is rerolling charges. My Flyrants rarely stay engaged, so that insurance is nice. Think I'd prefer Leviathan to Kraken as a second choice.
I'm also dubious about losing 2 Carnies likely on turn 1. There are certainly lists with that kind of firepower, but 2+/T7/-1 to hit is pretty resilient, esp at >24" range. A Battle Cannon firing twice and rerolling ones only does 3-4 wounds. That kind of dedicated firepower exists, but those lists pretty much need to table wipe in order to win a good mission.
Heya. I’m new and started to build the first Nids. Fist I Built a Winged Tyrant with magnets for every Weapon. Now I’ve some Questions again as I started Build Genestealer:
- The Genestealer has the Option next the rendering claw to have this “knive-Arms-scythe-things”. This are points free, but I think not that good like the claws. Now to build this models: It’s only a style-thing to have this knives on the model or do I something wrong to take this? I think It looks nice. What’s the reason why the most models have the claws and the normal arms on pictures?
- I made a little list. In my book one Genestealer cost 10 Points. In Battlescribe 1 cost 12 Point. Did I something wrong?
- I design some bases. Is it aloud the took a model on a little stone or something? Or do every model have to be on same high?
Thanks
Tyri
A couple of points. Genestealers are 10 points base but must buy Rending claws, for 2 points each as it is part of their wargear. You can then also give them Scything Talons. I would always do this as they are free, so for modeling give them the larger 3 claw hands and the Talons, which are the single blade not a hand with fingers. Also you may model them as you wish, having a rock on the base is not an issue.
Yessir, a few of us have been doing pretty well.
I have already won a GT with the new Tyranid codex.
And if I recall from your tournament report you faced some top of the meta lists, dispelling what someone said earlier about nids only winning tourneys when lucky with opponents.
Are you still planning to run a Kronos brigade for your next tourney? How has the faq or meta change effected your list building since your win?
Yessir, a few of us have been doing pretty well.
I have already won a GT with the new Tyranid codex.
And if I recall from your tournament report you faced some top of the meta lists, dispelling what someone said earlier about nids only winning tourneys when lucky with opponents.
Are you still planning to run a Kronos brigade for your next tourney? How has the faq or meta change effected your list building since your win?
Tyranids got the tools to win a GT with lucky opponents and/or dice. But shooting is ,and always will be better then close combat. And other armies are better at that. Also don't forget that tyranids armies could be facing a lot more other tyranid players and it will be bloody (and fun!) but hard to achieve a full massacre win.
I actually disagree. Proper use of assault can completely stop a shooting army in its tracks. My last match of the GT against AM, if I hadn't cast smite, I would've been able to use his screening units to prevent any shooting at 29 horms and 19 genestealers, popped overrun and adrenaline rush during HIS turn, wipe out his 30 man conscript squad, then be into his army on my turn 2 en masse. The new assault movement rules are SO strong, that properly engaging in assault will make it so the enemy army cannot do anything at all. I've run through 1000+ points of shooting armies with just 1 unit of 19 Genestealers by properly wrapping up units so enemies can't fall back. Shooting allows you to do damage without receiving damage, but assault not only allows you to do damage, it also allows you to shut down an opponent's ability to move, shoot and assault. The biggest thing that is keeping pure shooty armies working atm is criminally undercosted AM units. No other army can stand up to a good assault heavy army with combined arms using only shooting.
8th supremely rewards shooting heavy with a strong counter assault, or assault heavy with screen removal shooting.
Agree with Traceoftoxin. When you get into their lines, they don't know how to deal with it. Even if they fallback and can shoot (like ultramarines) your still gonna be back on them. Most players simply cannot deal with the amount of bodies we can throw at them and tie their army up. No plan survives contact with the enemy. And nids make contact turn 1 if your playing it right.
Tyranids got the tools to win a GT with lucky opponents and/or dice. But shooting is ,and always will be better then close combat. And other armies are better at that. Also don't forget that tyranids armies could be facing a lot more other tyranid players and it will be bloody (and fun!) but hard to achieve a full massacre win.
I actually disagree. Proper use of assault can completely stop a shooting army in its tracks. My last match of the GT against AM, if I hadn't cast smite, I would've been able to use his screening units to prevent any shooting at 29 horms and 19 genestealers, popped overrun and adrenaline rush during HIS turn, wipe out his 30 man conscript squad, then be into his army on my turn 2 en masse. The new assault movement rules are SO strong, that properly engaging in assault will make it so the enemy army cannot do anything at all. I've run through 1000+ points of shooting armies with just 1 unit of 19 Genestealers by properly wrapping up units so enemies can't fall back. Shooting allows you to do damage without receiving damage, but assault not only allows you to do damage, it also allows you to shut down an opponent's ability to move, shoot and assault. The biggest thing that is keeping pure shooty armies working atm is criminally undercosted AM units. No other army can stand up to a good assault heavy army with combined arms using only shooting.
8th supremely rewards shooting heavy with a strong counter assault, or assault heavy with screen removal shooting.
Agree with Traceoftoxin. When you get into their lines, they don't know how to deal with it. Even if they fallback and can shoot (like ultramarines) your still gonna be back on them. Most players simply cannot deal with the amount of bodies we can throw at them and tie their army up. No plan survives contact with the enemy. And nids make contact turn 1 if your playing it right.
I wonder when the meta will shift sufficently away from gunlines that we can stop rushing turn 1 and take a more balanced approach. I would love to play some Leaviathan/Hydra/Gorgon/Behemoth at competitive level.
On another note, i was looking at the beta changes and i was thinking that we are close to unimpacted from them. Sure, we may take some less Neurothrope.
Tyranids got the tools to win a GT with lucky opponents and/or dice. But shooting is ,and always will be better then close combat. And other armies are better at that. Also don't forget that tyranids armies could be facing a lot more other tyranid players and it will be bloody (and fun!) but hard to achieve a full massacre win.
I actually disagree. Proper use of assault can completely stop a shooting army in its tracks. My last match of the GT against AM, if I hadn't cast smite, I would've been able to use his screening units to prevent any shooting at 29 horms and 19 genestealers, popped overrun and adrenaline rush during HIS turn, wipe out his 30 man conscript squad, then be into his army on my turn 2 en masse. The new assault movement rules are SO strong, that properly engaging in assault will make it so the enemy army cannot do anything at all. I've run through 1000+ points of shooting armies with just 1 unit of 19 Genestealers by properly wrapping up units so enemies can't fall back. Shooting allows you to do damage without receiving damage, but assault not only allows you to do damage, it also allows you to shut down an opponent's ability to move, shoot and assault. The biggest thing that is keeping pure shooty armies working atm is criminally undercosted AM units. No other army can stand up to a good assault heavy army with combined arms using only shooting.
8th supremely rewards shooting heavy with a strong counter assault, or assault heavy with screen removal shooting.
You are right about all these things but that doesn't change my point. I do think that tyranids are going to win a lot of games but I'am discussing the probability of tyranid armies actually winning tournaments. They're strong and fast but the tactics are very straightforward and I expect a fast respons from all non-tyranid players. You can actually win with a 'only shooting' army against a full close combat army, because of one simple thing; fall back. But these shooting armies really need to think about placement/movement because it's much easier for tyranids to get in.
Sneggy wrote:
killerpenguin wrote: Do tyranids get any top positions in tournaments with our new codex?
Yessir, a few of us have been doing pretty well.
I have already won a GT with the new Tyranid codex.
Just realise that you faced a lot 'elite-armies' and that's a big plus for any tyranid army.
At my recent GT (pre-tyranid codex) you could not do well without facing a decent Astra M. army. Two armies I played against:
Spoletta wrote: Honestly post nid codex post CA, i don't think those list would stand many chances.
Let me explain it (again): I'am talking about winning tournaments and not single battles. For that you need great results each battle and I do think that Tyranids are meta-changing and win most games but it's hard to win each and every game full points against solid Astra M. armies. With the Tyranid codex the other factions do need to adjust their armylist to repel against tyranids.
Or is their some special tyranid stratagem that let Tyranid armies always start first, that I missed?
No army wins each and every game full points against all other armies. If there is one, then something went seriosly wrong with the game. If you want to win, you bring a list that has good chances against the most common lists, the rest is up to the player and to luck.
Even solid AM armies have match ups where not going first is bad news, nids being a good example.
Also, we are still comparing everything against an AM gunline, but after all these nerfs, they are no longer the top lists out there. I'm honestly more scared by eldars, and something tells me that Blood Angels will have a field day against us (havn't played against one yet).
Drager wrote: Is anyone else using the Sporefield Stratagem. I'm finding reserving the points for 2 minimum units of mines is extremely useful as many armies have either deepstrike elements or infiltrating screens to screen out our deepstrikers. Because of the timing on sporefield it gets to go before everything else that infiltrates except ratlings (with which it must roll off, so still 50/50). It completely shuts down the ability of Alpha legion to use forward operatives after they have already spent the command points and prevents Alaitoc Rangers from pushing back ravener/trygon drops. Also prevents any first turn deepstrikes against our army should that protection be needed for, say, a Kronos castle.
Detachment 1:
HQ – Tank Commander, Executioner plasma cannon, 2 Plasma cannons, Heavy bolter
[Warlord. Warlord trait: Grand Strategist, Relic: Kurov’s Aquila]
HQ – Tempestor Prime [Relic: The Laurels of Command]
HQ – Tempestor Prime
HQ – Tempestor Prime
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 10 Infantry Squad
TR – 10 Infantry Squad
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 10 Ratlings
EL – 10 Ratlings
FA – Scout Sentinel, Heavy flamer
FA – Scout Sentinel, Heavy flamer
FA – Hellhound, Heavy bolter, Inferno cannon
FA – Hellhound, Heavy bolter, Inferno cannon
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
Now with the new Tyranid codex these lists will probably going to include a bit more bubblewrap and/or get of my lawn units.
Both of those guard lists suffer from an old ork adage. Too many toys not enough boys. Both feature abundant drop plasma (which will never get a good target due to cheap and plentiful tyranid bubble wrap) and nowhere near enough screening. You say these lists will include more screens now that they know tyranids are coming? Those pts have to come from somewhere and conscripts got hit a lot harder by the recent updates than we did.
Will tyranids max point every match up? No but neither will anything else.
I faced some of the big meta lists right now (basically all of them except guard artillery line which I would actually take as a good match up and in only one game did I score less than 30 in an itc mission. (28 vs storm ravens.) I won that gt by more than 10vp on the tie break as well as a clear win, and played on the top table every single round. We can hang in any mission using a decent scoring system. Itc missions are a dream for us even though we bleed secondaries (reaper, kingslayer and headhunter are almost always max scores vs tyranids.)
Game 1 Vs ALCSM His list was 3 squads of cultists, 2x daemon princes and ahriman
In reserve he had the 3 units of obliterator , 1 unit of infiltrating blob of berserkers and 10 man combi-plasma terminator squad.
We are playing table quarters and itc mission with bonus pts for characters scoring.
I deployed to block his deep strike out of my zone and put the stealers to push out forwards. Flyrants in reserve.
He infiltrated blob of berserkers infront of 1 unit of genestealers.
Turn 1 CSM:
He took first turn and brought in the oblits on my right flank facing another unit of genestealers. Berserkers charged and destroyed a unit of genestealers. all the oblits opened up and destroyed another unit of genestealers.
Turn 1 Tyranid
My first turn i brought in my flyrants ,double advance my last unit of genestealers towards the oblits (dp behind them). 2 flyrants opened fire destroying the unit of berserkers and another putting some ineffectual fire on obliterators.
Due to some error , only my 6 man hive guard could fire and took out some obliterators. Genestealers charge 2 units of oblit (i got greedy) but alot fell to overwatch. Fighting ensues and i used adrenaline surge to try and finish them of , but dice happened.... and left them badly wounded but alive , 2-2-1, with one wound left on each of the 2 man unit. greed hurts. The genestealer was down to 6-7.
Turn 2 CSM He brought in terminator squad facing two of my flyrants, and flew a DPand ahriman beside them. one DPwent after the last flyrant.
Psychic+ Shooting: Between smites and 1 unit of oblit shooting, I lost the last unit of genestealers.
He overcharged his plasma and popped +1 wound roll and double fire strategem splitting fire between both flyrants. kill one , and leave another 1 wound.
Charge&Assault: His DP charge my 3rd flyrant and put some wounds. unfortunately for him, he fought against my flyrant with TS, and i ended up killing his daemon prince.
Turn 2 Tyranid:
i moved my 1 wound flyrant and the 7-8W flyrant towards ahriman and the last DP. Psychic phase saw me remove a number of chaos terminators.
my shooting phase was great as i could now fire all 12 oblits, including Single Minded Elim strat on the 6 man.
It finished off all the 3-4 oblits, leaving 1 guy and killed all the terminators. my flyrant opened fire on ahriman and killed him.
Assault phase saw me killing the last daemon prince.
Some other stuff happen but basically he realise I was going to table him, as he only left cultists and he conceded .
Tyranids win 19-1.
Game two Vs Ork : His list: 160+ choppa boys, 6 wyrd boys, 2 mek boyz , 2 warboss , 2 pain boys, 4 kannons.
gak it is the relic ..... against an ork horde.... fmlfmlfml
I spread wide , with flyrants in the center. I was quite sure my rippers were not gonna go anywhere and wanted to prevent him from a sudden deepstrike behind with ork powers, so i just left them spread out in my rear deployment.
My hive guards set up in a tower opposite the center of his blob and in range of his kannon.
Turn 1 Tyranid I went first, popping double m strategem on one unit of genestealer to run up to his lines. 2nd unit of stealer went and surround / pick the relic. last unit of genestealer just advance slightly out his range, rather to function as a flanker/counter-assault.
Psychic phase was fairely ineffectual and will continue throughout the game. Shooting saw me remove most of his kannon and some random boys.
I charge a unit of boys with my genestealers, (declared on two units) preventing overwatch from 2nd unit by being out of los. i planned to fight twice....
However disaster struck and i lost 5 genestealers on overwatch to add salt, i only killed 7 boys and lost my entire unit on his return attack. (okay ..... )
Turn 1 Orks: On his turn, very straight forward , orks ran up , and slew of super smites by the wyrd boys tore apart alot of the genestealers, he then charged the middle of genestealers and 1 flyrant with 3 blobs of boys, wiping the genestealer out and leaving the flyrant with 1-2 wounds. 1 of the smaller unit went over the relic during the assault and got it.
Spoiler:
Turn 2 Tyranid:
i was abit desperate as I realise the only way to win was via the relic, since likely we would tie on secondaries and maelstorm. I badly needed to stem the tide of green bodies piling into the center. I decided not weaken the front ranks but to focus my ranged attacks on the middle rear of the tide to slow down his reinforcement.
I advanced my flyrants up to boyz unit #3 (2nd unit had 2 wyrdboys behind) and advance my genestealer in between the first and second blob. unit 1 had the relic. my dying flyrant went over to a side to kill a wyrdboy.
all my smites, 3x flyrants and hive guard (i double shot hg against boys ) into the 3rd boyz unit behind the 2 that's already in the middle. i hoped the thinned 3rd will impede the last 3 units from joining the fray too easily. I casted Catalyst on genestealer blob.
I then assaulted specifically my flyrant into boyz unit #3 and wyrdboys, survived overwatch , flew into combat with unit #3 and both wyrdboys. my other flyrant charged unit #3 as well lol my genestealer charged the boyz unit #1 and 2 (with relic) but also declared on the 2nd unit. my 1-2 wound hp flyrant charged a 3rd wyrdboy in a corner
Assault phase: flyrant killed both wyrdboys. other flyrant killed some boys in unit #3 , but nothing much. the genestealer with the aid of the fight again strategem severely thins units #2. 1-2 wound flyrant kills flyrant.
so now i have the relic on my genestealers but they're out of combat. my 2 flyrant engaged in boys unit #3 (thinned).
Turn 2 Orks: his warlord and warboss moved against my 1-2 hp flyrant.
The tide surge forward but was hampered by the blob of combats in the middle nearer to his side spreading themselves thinly.
he had less psykers this round. but random wounds were placed on my two fairly healthy tyrants locked in combat.
Charge: his warboss charged my 1-2 wound flyrant . 2 staggered stringing units (units #3 & 4) of ork charged my flyrants and the last healthy genestealer with the relic. Due to terrain and number of bodies already in the middle, they couldnt fit many into combat, pile in would get more in but not the full number of boys.
Combat: Ork warboss killed a the 1-2 wound flyrant. The blob of unit #2 killed a flyrant but left another fairly healthy. unit 4 attacked my genestealer and killed some, i pop my last 2 cp and activated my genestealers next and attacked unit 4, almost wiping them out entirely.
So now: only unit #3 was is strung out and in combat with my genestealers. Orks Unit #5 and Unit # 6 are behind, itching to run up and participate.
Turn 3 Tyranid: we started playing very quickly, as we were running out of time, .
genestealer left combat to head towards the relic. flyrant flew over the nearby warlord warboss.
catalyst casted on genestealers
Hive guards fired into Unit #5 to weaken ork next wave. Flyrant shot into unit #3 to thin them further as there are still the closest threat to the genestealer. I had walked my biovore out of synapse , and i threw a spore mine beside the relic/genestealers to block charge paths.
Flyrant assaulted and killed the warlord warboss, genestealers did a short range charge on unit #3 and killed most of them. Return swing by boys did nothing.
Turn 3 Orks:
Orks unit #5 and 6 ran up. and Unit 3 went into combat with genestealers. with too little orks in range and abit of subpar rolling i lost only 1 genestealers.
Am down to 4 genestealers on the relic with a flyrant nearby.. unit #3 barely alive and unit #5 and #6 behind.
Turn 4 Tyranid : We were dirt short on time, i would win on turn 3 . But opponent insisted we play one more round as he was sure he can speed play faster to kill 4 genestealers to get the relic and win. I decided to let him.
I had 4 genestealers on relic and 1 flyrant nearby. Have to keep the 4 genestealers alive against boys and some random characters.
my last remaining flyrant flew up to his lines again.
got catalyst off on my genestealers, and more smites into ork unit #5.
Shooting Phase: Concentrated my HG & Flyrant firepower into unit #5 as well.
i drop another spore mine beside earlier spore mine to form a charge wall against the remaining orks that would have to go around to reach the genestealers.
Charge:
I charge the flyrant into unit #3 being careful to place him in such a manner slightly ahead and to the side of the 2 spore mines, to further limit opponent movement.
I surprise him again, by charging my remaining 4 genestealers into Ork unit #3.
Assault:
the 4 genestealers and flyrant took out almost all of unit #3 with barely enough in combat. the bulk of boyz were around/closer to the Flyrant.
Ork Turn 4: My opponent is now very frustrated as he had no way to reach my genestealers. Have to go around Flyrant + unit #3 , which is further blocked at the end by two spore mines.
He was also out of psykers to teleport his forces across.
He decided to use a strategem to merge unit #5 with unit #3 to push forward but it didnt matter as no additional boyz could go into combat with my genestealers.
Charge: 1 painboy managed to charge the 4 genestealers.
Combat phase: 4 ork boys + 1 pain boy punched 4 genestealers.
Painboy had a poor hit roll and killed one only Genestealer.
4 Ork boys only manage to do enough to kill 2.
I did not need to roll for my last genestealer! RELIC IS MINE !
Tyranid Win 17-5 Orks Greentide on relic was something I did not expect to be so unbelievably tough.
Spoiler:
Game 3 Opponent List - Ynnari / Alaitoc
Yvarine , Spiritseer, Farseer, Autarch on Jetbike.
2 Hemlocks. 18 Dark Reapers (10 & 8), 3 jet bikes, 1 wave serpents. 3 units of warriors, 3 units of rangers and a solitaire.
He won the roll off
Deployment
He kept his HQ and 8 man reaper in his Wave Serpent. 10 man Dark Reaper was in reserve using strategem. He deployed wide to prevent my deepstrike.
Spoiler:
Turn 1 Ynnari.
Pain.
Both Hemlocks flew over. Solitaire used blitz to close in on 6 man hive guard.
10 man dark reaper dropped in across my lines.
Psychic Phase:
Guide & Soulburst on 10 man Dark Reaper.
Shooting Phase:
10 man dark reaper wiped out one squad of genestealers, 8 man dark reaper and various random rangers & warrirors killed off the other unit. Both tempest launchers shot at my 3rd genestealer squad out of line of sight.
Hemlocks killed 4.5 hive guards.
Yannari used a strategem to make the 10 man dark reaper run behind cover.
Charge/Assault: Solitaire charged in and finished off the hive guard, and soulburst away to an objective.
Turn 1 Tyranid Dropped in my 3 flyrants, 2 going for 1 fighter each (mistake, should have focused fire), the last going for the wave serpent.
Popped my double run movement for my last set of genestealer and rolled a 5. Got across the board infront of his Rangers.
Psychic Phase, random smites going , catalyst on genestealers. horror on wave serpent.
Shooting: 2x 3 hive guards killed 8 man dark reaper squad. flyrants shot at heir planes. minimal wounds. i drop a mine near their hq blob.
Charge: flyrants both succeeded charging both planes. last flyrant failed to charge wave serpent. genestealers declared charge on Rangers and the 10 man dark reaper hiding behind the hil.
Assault: flyrant did some wounds but not enough. Genestealers pile and killed the 5 rangers, I popped Overrun & Adrenaline Surge to reach and kill the 10 man Dark Reapers.
Spoiler:
Turn 2 Ynnari: fighters moved away. most of his units shuffled to try get various objectives but he was limited by the need to stay away from me. Solitaire came back to the genestealers.
psychic phase: he cast some powers. i pop Shadows via the spore mine to stop soulburst.
After psychic / shooting/charge. I lost 1 flyrant and 1 was severely wounded.
Turn 2 Tyranid I dropped in my 3x3 rippers. 1 on objective nearby, 2 infront of my neurothropes as they advanced forward.
Flyrant shooting / smites killed one plane and solitaire.
HG opened on the various eldar men on objectives clearing them.
Charge/Assault: Flyrant charge into last hemlock but couldnt finish it off.... i made a blunder and charge the other flyrant into the Farseer & spirit seer. I should have killed the jetbikes or wave serpent. Flyrant and psykers wiff
Turn 3 Ynnari. We have always been matching maelstorm but this turn he did not manage to score.
He advanced forward but most of his forces were too close to his deployment edge.
Wave serpent moved forward to try shoot the unit of ripper on objective.
Psychic : -1 armor save & doom on healthier flyrant. random smites.
Shooting : hemlock killed the already badly wounded flyrant. Rest of his army shot the severely debuffed Flyrant down.
Wave serpent shot the rippers but couldnt finish them off.
Turn 3 Tyranid.
I told my opponent i won the game. lol Eternal War was kill points , which he won.
Maelstorm was won by me thanks to him not scoring the previous turn.
We both had first strike and we dont have slay the warlord.
However i am just gonna run every model into the center for King of the Hill.
My opponent was not happy.
Tyranids win 10-9.
Spoiler:
Final Thoughts.
Wow. Orks on relic was incredibly nerve wrecking and losing 732 points turn 1 to Ynnari/Alaitoc was brutal. Fun round of games, opponents were very competitive but fair & friendly. Many subtle shenanigans occured that added alot of tactical depth throughout the games , which I am not going to try recall and list them here.
My Genestealers have been wiped out almost every game but they always did their job.
My list was designed to be TAC, and as a result , I had no singular MVP unit that I could think of,every unit played their part well individually and as part of a list. I had no clear skew to just quickly table an opponent, but I definitely had an immense toolkit for every problem.
Sneggy wrote:Both of those guard lists suffer from an old ork adage. Too many toys not enough boys. Both feature abundant drop plasma (which will never get a good target due to cheap and plentiful tyranid bubble wrap) and nowhere near enough screening. You say these lists will include more screens now that they know tyranids are coming? Those pts have to come from somewhere and conscripts got hit a lot harder by the recent updates than we did.
Will tyranids max point every match up? No but neither will anything else.
I faced some of the big meta lists right now (basically all of them except guard artillery line which I would actually take as a good match up and in only one game did I score less than 30 in an itc mission. (28 vs storm ravens.) I won that gt by more than 10vp on the tie break as well as a clear win, and played on the top table every single round. We can hang in any mission using a decent scoring system. Itc missions are a dream for us even though we bleed secondaries (reaper, kingslayer and headhunter are almost always max scores vs tyranids.)
It's just an example of shooty astra militarum armies that would probably do better against tyranid armies compared to the armies you faced. You won against grey knights and ad mech, and lets be honest thats not really a difficult thing for tyranids. If the second AstraM. army deploy's 2x10 ratlings 18 inch from the tyranids and moves forward twice then those genestealers could only move 7/8 inch forward. I think a lot of players don't know (yet) how to deal with tyranids and are surprised about the speed and strategic options. Astra M. got cheap anti-MC/vehicle and cheap anti-infantry shooting and would still be the best matchup to face tyranids.
Deshkar wrote:Hi All, just won a RTT (no FW) using ITC rules. Sharing a summarized batrep of how it went down....
Looked like a lot of fun! Great thing about tyranids, it's always a game.
Detachment 1:
HQ – Tank Commander, Executioner plasma cannon, 2 Plasma cannons, Heavy bolter
[Warlord. Warlord trait: Grand Strategist, Relic: Kurov’s Aquila]
HQ – Tempestor Prime [Relic: The Laurels of Command]
HQ – Tempestor Prime
HQ – Tempestor Prime
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 5 Tempestus Scions,2 Plasmaguns, Plasma pistol
TR – 10 Infantry Squad
TR – 10 Infantry Squad
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 4 Tempestus Command Squad, 4 Plasmaguns
EL – 10 Ratlings
EL – 10 Ratlings
FA – Scout Sentinel, Heavy flamer
FA – Scout Sentinel, Heavy flamer
FA – Hellhound, Heavy bolter, Inferno cannon
FA – Hellhound, Heavy bolter, Inferno cannon
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
HS – 3 Heavy Weapon Squad, 3 Mortars
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
DT – Taurox Prime, Taurox gatling cannon, 2 Autocannons
Now with the new Tyranid codex these lists will probably going to include a bit more bubblewrap and/or get of my lawn units.
I actually would love to fight those lists in a tournament setting, have a number of experience fighting pre-nerf scions.
my hiveguards will take out most of the tauroxes in a round. lol i probably lose most of my genestealers but that's fine.
ratling does not slow genestealers very much there is always overrun as well.. only time it will hamper my Genestealers is if we're on a short board edge deployment. There is always the Overrun strategem.
and now that flyrants can deepstrike in, it's even easier to for nids.
I really want some Hive Guard. Few problems though. They can only be bought online directly from gw. So no discount. They are super expensive. They are out of stock.
dan2026 wrote: I really want some Hive Guard. Few problems though. They can only be bought online directly from gw. So no discount. They are super expensive. They are out of stock.
All the ones on EBay are super expensive too. :(
If you dont mind making them out of Warriors you can do that. The old ones look really close to Warriors.
I bought 3, they were sold out so i made 3 more to have my 6.
lindsay40k wrote: @Amishprn86, could you please edit spoiler tags around the large image? It makes the page very difficult to read on phones and tablets.
Okay, I'm sorting out my Warriors, currently building four VCs now that they're really good again with more to follow. Aiming to have two full squads with spitters, claws, hooks, max VCs. Now, way back in 3ed I built ten with claws, scytals, hooks, leaping legs. I'm happy to call their velociraptor posture a visual equivalent to Adrenal Glands, but their general loadout seems very poor. I'm thinking about adding two more same as the rest and six Stranglers, and the scytals are conversions I'm not removing. Maybe switch claws for devourers, so I've got two anti horde units and two heavier hitters?
Got some Shrikes I never got round to finishing, as well. I'd like them to be melee specialists, Behemoth traditionalist and all, but I guess they ideally want to be carrying guns?
lindsay40k wrote: Okay, I'm sorting out my Warriors, currently building four VCs now that they're really good again with more to follow. Aiming to have two full squads with spitters, claws, hooks, max VCs. Now, way back in 3ed I built ten with claws, scytals, hooks, leaping legs. I'm happy to call their velociraptor posture a visual equivalent to Adrenal Glands, but their general loadout seems very poor. I'm thinking about adding two more same as the rest and six Stranglers, and the scytals are conversions I'm not removing. Maybe switch claws for devourers, so I've got two anti horde units and two heavier hitters?
Got some Shrikes I never got round to finishing, as well. I'd like them to be melee specialists, Behemoth traditionalist and all, but I guess they ideally want to be carrying guns?
All the assault weapons can stil shoot after you advance. But the pistols are only 1 point for 3 shots.
Hey guys this may be more appropriate for YMDC but I this is pretty important to consider for our charging tactics so I figured I would post it here.
Lets say I make a charge against several rhinos but cannot surround them, but sitll blow them up. I use my consolidation move to push within 2 inches, then use adrenal surge to "charge" the units that were in the rhinos. This is illegal yes? Due to not declaring a charge against them and what not.
If thats the case, say both rhinos have beserkers in them. Suddenly that unit of stealers is practically guaranteed to get blendered. Any suggestions specifically for how to deal with something like that, other than just shooting it and blowing it up earlier, then charging whats inside. Any assault shenanigans you guys have experience with or thought of?
Pile In moves are not Charges. You may Pile In to anything you can reach; BUT in a TURN in which you have executed a CHARGE, you can only make ATTACKS against units you DECLARED the charge against.
If it enables you to tag twenty Veterans with combi-weapons, it's probably a good play. But it's not going to eat them alive until subsequent turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for Rhinos full of Berzerkers... keep away or screen until you can nuke the Rhinos.
One Assault shenanigans is to envelop the Rhinos so the Berzerkers get baked to death.
Since the berserkers didnt make a charge, they can now fight also, so IDK if you really want them to get free hits on you, i would just no consolidate and make him charge that unit of gants to waste an attack turn.
Here's the batreps from the Portal GT. Was 41 players, including some of the top players in the country. You can see the final results HERE. I took 9th overall, though my battle points alone had be tied for 10th with Dallas Rapoport. It's been 2 weeks so I'm gonna be a bit foggy on some details.
Every mission had a primary which was typically 4-5 objectives, winning would net you ~9 points. Secondaries were maelstrom, but you could choose your own. You picked like 2 or 3 per turn, and they varied per mission. You could try to complete them as many times as you wanted, but only receive points once (So if you said kill a char and didnt do it turn 2, you could try again turn 3). Sometimes there was a tertiary which was a modified KP, or something like that. Waited too long to write the reports.
We weren't using chap approved, so a lot of people had some lists that would be 10-30% more expensive now.
My list
Kraken Brigade
Flyrant MRC, 2x Dev, -1 to hit relic, usually no penalties to hit trait, or reroll hits against a datasheet
Flyrant MRC, 2x Dev Neurothrope
Neurothrope
Game 1
Death Guard
Typhus
Daemon Prince w/ claws and the relic armor
~5 nurglings
~7 plague marines in a rhino
10 poxwalkers
2 of the super flamer guys
Deredo with double autocannons and havok
Leviathan with claw, grav and heavy flamer
2x shooty blight drones
1x fleshmower blight drone
Deployment was dawn of war
Mission was 6 objectives.
Because he had such limited shooting, I deployed both stealer squads, kept 2 flyrants, lictors, 3 mucolids and dev gants in reserve. My typical deployment is GS in the middle (1 or 2 squads), horms on both sides, neuros around the edges of the GS, and venoms in the middle. Biovores and rippers back hiding somewhere. I would forget the mucolids (My first game using them). He deployed on the line, and put his nurglings right smack in the middle.
Spoiler:
He got first turn, pushed right up to me with nurglings. DS typhus and brought everything else up to the middle of the board except walkers holding back objective.
Spoiler:
Wiped out like 25 or so horms from right squad, charged the nurglings into my horms and 1 unit of GS. He apparently forgot (Despite us going over it) that I could fall back and charge.
Spoiler:
My turn, just blew by the nurglings, dropped flyrants and trygon behind him. My biggest mission was to eat Typhus and lock down the dreads. Was hoping to do critical damage to poxwalkers with dev gants and throw some wounds on the rhino, then charge it and surround it so he would be stuck. Flyrants and Trygon were going to plink damage into the rhino, but try to charge the deredo. Left side I wanted to charge his drones and keep them from being able to move around and charge me, while also hoping to do a bit of damage. I used the depleted horm squad and the lictors to eat some overwatch, allowing my GS to get in on the Leviathan. Trygon and 1 flyrant made it to deredeo. I got some of, but not all, the drones into combat. Used Venomthropes to tie up the poxwalkers. One neurothrope ate the Typhus overwatch to get stealers in safe. Even after burning adrenaline surge, Typhus survived, and his bloat drones took barely any damage. The Trygon, however, completely annihilated the Deredeo. I don't think I even bothered with reroll wounds. In return I lost a neurothrope, a good amount of left stealers and horms.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
His turn 2 his prince flew back towards dev gants, and the rhino emptied out. The two monster flamer dudes went with prince to try to kill my warlord, plague marines got onto the ruins to do some shooting. Typhus was wrapped up by a few horms that had pile into him and the rhino, and couldn't fall back. Leviathan was totally surrounded. The drones jumped out towards the venoms, while the nurglings moved towards my biovores/rippers. He did a bunch of damage to my warlord flyrant, and I think he did manage to finish him off in combat, or he was nearly dead, but he had charged dev gants so they couldnt shoot. Venomthropes died, more GS died, Typhus died.
My turn 2, have 1 horm left from right squad, it hides around a corner from the leviathan. GS fall back off it. My left stealer squad is beat up, but still trying to use smite, and the GS to deal with the drones. Flyrant(s?) and Trygon go after the prince. Use lone horm to disable overwatch from leviathan (Was out of LOS so he couldn't overwatch), then positioned stealers to allow Trygon to come into combat safely next turn. Assault the prince with the flyrant(s) and Trygon, while dev gants charge and surround his flamer guys. He barely loses his prince, his leviathan keeps swinging, and I think at this point the fleshmower is down to like 1 wound.
His turn 3, he is still trying to get his nurglings to my biovores/rippers, and has 2 drones that cant charge but are shooting me up. My left stealer squad is almost or entirely removed.
My turn 3, I drop stealers off the leviathan to get the plague marines or drones, and get the flyrant/trygon/dev gants to it. Trygon obliterates what's left of leviathan, still having trouble removing the drones, but the left horms make it to his last poxwalker.
We were playing super fast for time, and at the end I think he had 2 damage drones left, I had a Trygon, Flyrant, dev gants, horms. I think I lost all my stealers, both neuros and venomthrope.
Ended up being a 19-3 victory.
He really misplayed coming straight to me. I think shooting the GS instead of horms wouldn't have changed much, 1 squad spent most of the game just holding stuff down, and the horms actually would have done that better. Overall it was a bad matchup for him.
Game 2
SM+SOB, Patrick Mcaneeny
Guilleman
Tiggy
JP captain with Teeth of Terra
Celestine
4 tac squads with lascannon
4 asscan razorbacks
Stormraven MM/TLLC/HB 6 SoB
Mission is 4 objectives, either score progressively or at the end. I don't think I can outscore him over the course of the game, so I'm going to try to go all in. There's a huge LOS and impassble piece of terrain right in the middle that has a nice corner I should be able to hide my stealers in, then easily get to him the following turn. After our last game, Pat deploys much more cautiously, using 2 tac squads and a sisters squad to try to wrap his tanks. Celestine is at the edge of his deployment on my right flank. One other tac squad is up in a building. I have celestine marked for death for a secondary. Typical deployment for me, with 1 stealer squad infesting.
Spoiler:
He gives me first turn, not interested in moving forward and getting charged like last game. I get use double advance on 1 horm squad and am 5" away from his sisters. He really misplayed his wrap, he has huge gaps between his bubble wrap and I'm going to onslaught, charge just a sister squad, blow by them and basically his whole army, shutting down all his razorbacks right off the rip. I bring up the trygon with dev gants on the right flank to gun down celestine right out the gate. I keep flyrants back because I need them to stop the stormraven, and there wasn't enough room to get my stealers in on the right, where I intend to overload his flank while the horms lock down most of his army. Shooting picks up celestine (Who comes back behind his lines) and most of a tac squad (I think I double tapped to make it happen).
Spoiler:
Of course, even with rerolling 1s AND a command reroll, I fail onslaught. I'm gutted. He totally played into my hand, and I fail an absurdly easy roll. I'm pretty confident this is going to cost me the entire game, but, the guns he will be forced to put into the horms may buy me enough time to get both stealer squads into his lines. Catalyst goes on the horms, in hopes of eating more firepower.
His turn 1 he blows by my horms with stormraven, looking to pick up as much of my backfield as possible in one go, while having the hurricanes available to target the horms. He shifts back and away from my right, and focuses on the horms. He manages to erase the whole squad, but it takes essentially all of his shooting. He picks up both biovores with the stormraven.
Ouch. But, both stealer squads are okay, I can still make this work.
My turn 2, I drop the flyrants in the backfield to deal with the stormraven and the captain within. Trygon double advances, looking to onslaught and use him to eat overwatch on a razorback, as well as eat it. Central GS advance right up beside the building, looking to hit the sisters and some razorbacks. Reserve GS pop up behind Trygon.
Spoiler:
Onslaught goes off, catalyst on the central GS squad. I smite and scream as much as I can at the flier... and take 2 perils for 3 damage each... I am getting really pissed at my dice by this point. There's a decent chance the streaming table behind me is picking up my tirade about how I'd prefer to be taken to dinner before I get fethed. The flier takes around 7 damage or so.
Shooting is pretty weak, I fail to pick up the last lascannon from the right squad, I do maybe 1 or 2 damage to the flier.
Assault the Trygon takes a few wounds but makes the charge, central stealers make an okay charge that won't get them as far as I need, and reserve stealers don't make it, even after a reroll. Lictor as well. One flyrant makes the charge.
I manage to eat one razorback and the sisters squad, and lock up one of the razorbacks. I'm pretty sure his flier survived on its lowest damage tier.
Not a great turn. I *really* needed my second stealer squad, or a better charge roll for my central squad. Also needed to kill that stormraven. Bad advance rolls kept most of the dev gants from shooting. Overall a really painful turn. I just can't get any momentum, I'm failing on lots of things that are low probability, but I'm also failing on more than my share of high probability things. I'm getting frustrated and losing sight of my secondaries, as I'm trying to figure out how I can get through his right flank to cripple him and win overall.
Spoiler:
His turn 2
He falls back where he has to, and unloads his shooting into the central stealers with lascannons into the Trygon. Trygon dies to like 3 lascannons, most of the central stealers and horms die to shooting/assault. The captain jumps after my neurothrope/venomthropes, and with the swing twice stratagem kills the neuro. The flier does some mixed damage to my flyrants.
Man, his damage is just so high. Taking like 6 mortal wounds on GS from Guilleman, high lascannon damage output, etc. I'm making feth all for saves where I can.
My turn 3
I bring other lictor in far back on left flank behind terrain to hop out later. Flyrants move to be able to deal with flier and captain as best we can. Reserve stealers move up to charge as much as I can. I manage to get the flier and the captian, but take THREE MORE DAMAGE from ANOTHER perils on my warlord. I've now taken 9 damage from 3 perils across 4 psychic tests. Dev gants are really struggling, I need his infantry alive to charge, and shooting razorbacks is pretty negligible.
Assaults I get reserve stealers in and I just cannot do enough damage. Even with a fight twice, I manage to take down tiggy and a few tac marines. A little damage to Guilleman. Cannot get where I need to because of poor charge ranges to lock up the vehicles. In return my GS are basically crippled, and he is basically free to do whatever.
Game is as good as over. I have failed probably 75% of my invulns on flyrants. Cannot get off critical charges or psychic powers, and have eaten 9 damage from perils. Rest of the game is him just doing clean up, with me being tabled at the bottom of 5 or 6, I can't remember. I manage a 19-10 loss, simply because the mission allowed me to score a lot based on kills throughout the game.
Spoiler:
Even if I had been thinking more about the mission, I don't think I could have played different to win. I just failed in too many important rolls. The onslaught on turn 1 alone would have completely changed the game. Even a 7" charge would have been enough to get me in position to stop shooting from almost all of his army. With the position of the sisters, I would have almost certainly had one locked, and he would have only been able to do damage in assault. With Catalyst, I figure I'd come out of assault with 10-15 horms left. More than enough to fall back and do charge shenanigans and lock up 2+ razorbacks again the following turn, or surround Guilleman and keep him zoned off the GS. The only way I could have played it different was to do the score as the game goes, and then just dance outside the 24" range of his guns, waiting for him to move up and try basically the same thing, but having turn 1 meant I could try to get in first without taking any shooting. It was the right play, but dice are dice and they decided I was just not going to make it. A very frustrating game.
Game 3
Iron Warriors
3x JP lords, 1 with murder sword, 1 or 2 with combi plas. Warlord has IW fearless aura trait.
4x10 cultists
7x3 oblits
3x1 spawn
Mission is relic primary, secondary maelstrom.
I put both stealer squads in infestation, spread horms, spores and biovores out to make it impossible to DS behind me. I have 3 infestation markers about 1" behind my horm lines, and 1 deep into my deployment zone. He does the same with the spawn, cultists and his warlord. We're both basically playing chicken with our reserves. Difference is, by giving me turn 1, I'm going to get the relic.
Turn 1 I run out with a horm and grab the relic. I taunt him to come after me.
Spoiler:
He doesn't. He does nothing on his turn 1.
My turn 2, I shift some horms, but maintain the shape. I am holding central objective, while moving relic back. Trying to score maelstroms while baiting him.
He decides that waiting isn't going to get him any points, as I've scored 2/2 maelstrom both turns, and he's scored like 1 each turn. He brings everything in on my left flank.
Spoiler:
Most squads are back a little, but a lord and 1 squad are right at 9" from my horms, who have an infestation node about 1" behind them. It's looking like I'll infest about 4" away from him, then have an easy charge, where I can surround him, do minimum damage, then overrun and adrenaline on his turn.
His shooting wipes out like 29 horms from the relic squad, and ~25 from the other. I leave the one relic horm and the handful infront of the node. The relic horm is out of synapse, which he confirms, and so he doesn't bother shooting it again as I'll die to morale. Then he makes the charge with his lord and the oblits into my left horm squad... which picks up my nodes . Couldn't believe I didn't consider the impact of a charge. What a moron I am sometimes. I could have left models outside of 12", or only close to one of the markers, but instead I kept them perfectly so he could get within 9" of two. Damn. I unsurprisingly lose all the horms. He's dismayed when I spend 2 CP to not run with the horms. No point in bringing a brigade if I don't use the CP!
My turn 3
Well, now we gotta get to work. Relic horm falls back to a neurothrope to give it the relic when he dies. I bring in one stealer squad, and while setting up the second, decide its not time and keep them out(Yep, I had a brainfart about it being 3 and the losing reserves rule. I had been telling myself the whole beginning that I had to bait him out before 3, otherwise I would have to come out, then he could alpha strike me). Dev gants come in on the center of the board. Flyrants land on my right of his deployment zone, working on the spawn and staying outside of advance+shooting range of the oblits. I'm not sure I can tie up ALL of his oblits in one go, assuming I make my charge, so I need to mitigate incoming damage.
Spoiler:
Psychic and shooting picks up two spawn. Catalyst on stealers. Dev gants pick up the JP lord, but dont do much (any?) damage to oblits.
I lead with the lictor into the oblits, and survive with 1 wound, locking them. The stealers get a big charge and I easily manage to surround them. Perfect. I am swinging with two, and then locking the whole unit. Dev gants charge into oblits to try to minimize his shooting and maybe keep the Trygon up.
Spoiler:
His turn 3
He picks up the Trygon (Surprise!), and does very little otherwise. Charging some cultists into gants, he beats the squad up a bit, and he kills off the relic horm. During assault I wipe oblits, overrun and adrenaline surge into a bunch of oblits, bringing two squads down to half.
My turn 4
Stealers and dev gants fall back, flyrants move up towards cultists. Neurothrope picks up relic and they move up to start smiting.
I go to bring in stealers... and remember its turn 4. I inform my opponent they're destroyed. He disagrees, he says that's not a rule. I insist, and check the reinforcements section to make sure, but he's adamant. Of course, there's nothing in the reinforcements section, I look for a judge, but with none in the room (We were in the secondary room), he says don't worry about it. So, I bring them in with a lictor.
Kill some cultists with shooting/smites, get catalyst on the first GS squad, a little smite damage here and there.
I use dev gants to minimize his oblit overwatch, but pile them mostly into cultists. I lose the new lictor to overwatch, and a few GS, but a 9" gets them to the 2 damaged oblit squads. The first stealer squad has spread out immensely, and still has like 17 models. It charges just 1 or 2 oblits and some cultists, but piles in to every oblit squad just to shut down his shooting, as I only need to buy 1 turn for my flyrants to get into the oblits, and I should be able to start running through the squads with melee.
Ironically, the stealers that shouldnt be there do terribly, and only a few oblits die. The other stealers also do poorly, and kill a few GS. He swings everything on the first stealer squad, and I'm left with 9 models.
Spoiler:
His turn 4 he does no damage to the flyrants, and actually loses his warlord to overcharged plasma (-1 to hit on my warlord flyrant ftw). In assault oblits manage to kill a few of the 9 man squad, but there are still ~4 left holding all but 1 of the 3 man oblit squads. Nevermind the dev gants (A handful left) and the new stealers. Time runs out, so we talk out turn 5 and run the points.
Ended up 19-2 or so for me. Not bad recovery for last game of the first day. As soon as I got home I busted out my big rule book and found the reserves rule (It's a matched play rule). I felt terrible, I knew it was a rule, but because it was favorable to me I went with his interpretation. I sat down, pulled out the pics and played the match over in my head. My conclusion was that even without that squad, we were out of time at the end of HIS 4. Between the dev gants and the 9 man stealer, he would have had to kill like 5 more stealers to get ANY oblits free for his turn 4. I killed 4 oblits with the illegal squad, with 12 attacks, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 5+/5+++ saves, I should have lost about 3. Variance in his favor, 5 was possible, but a little unlikely. So, the following day, as soon as I got to the venue I pulled him to the side and explained the situation. We walked through turns 3/4, and he agreed, it didn't actually change the game. If we'd had more time, it could have definitely made a difference, but, with us running out of time when we did, it didn't matter. Personally, I think that even without the second stealer squad, I had enough dev gants and my neurothropes were close enough that he would have not been shooting at the flyrants, while I would have been charging into locked squads.
Overall we had a blast, we were laughing and joking the whole game. His list was the kind that doesn't sound great on paper, but when its time to put stuff on the board, it always feels like walking on razor's edge. If he had known about the turn 3 reserves rule, he could have just waited me out, and dropped to blast my stealers. However, doing that I probably would have wrapped up all of his oblits with horms and kept him there the whole game. The end result is probably about the same. We figured his best bet probably would have been to use cultists as a screen and drop oblits behind them, blast out stealers then try to minimize the lock ups I could cause.
I'll try to get day 2 done here in a few days. Sorry it's been so slow.
I'm super shocked your Trygons lived as long as they did, honestly. Mine always get blown up the turn they come on, or the very next game turn if i went second.
Do you find that having a monstrous bio cannon on a flyrant would have helped or hindered? Specifically the HVC.
I played a local four game event on Saturday, with around 16-20 players attending. I took a Jormundr/Kronos Swarmlord+'stealers build and went 1W, 2L, 1D. The event used the ITC missions and new FAQ's.
My army constisted of (Jormungdr) Swarmlord+pod, 2x1 Neurothrope, 2x19 'stealers, 1x27 Termagant with devourers, 2x3 rending claw Raveners, (Kronos) 2x1 Neurothrope, 2x3 Rippers, 2x4 impaler cannon Hive Guard. The overall plan was to deploy the Hive Guard and Rippers out of line of sight and forward of the Neurothropes to counter alpha strikes, and to deep strike the rest, using the devourers to clear out screening units and the Swarmlord+'stealer combo to delete key units. The event did not permit duplicate detachments, and I only have 8 Hive Guard, so the Kronos detachment ended up being a patrol. If I could have had duplicate detachments, I would have dropped the rending claws on the Raveners and added 3rd Ripper unit to the Kronos detachment to make it a Battalion.
I played against IG, Chaos, Chaos, and IG. Easily half of the armies present were one of those two factions, with the rest being mostly Marines. There was a strong Tyranid presence, with several different builds, which pleased me to see, and a single Tau drone army, who did quite well.
My first game was against an IG player who outflanks? a Shadowsword + support tanks, with lots of drop squads and a light backfield. I have played him at every event I've gone to in the last two months, so I have a good idea of what his list does. I went first, leaving a unit of 'stealers in the infestation nodes, cleared out a big chunk of his backline, including most of his Mortars, then lost my assault force to the superheavy's shooting. Between the two of us we threw so many dice and deployed so many units that it took over an hour to finish the first turn. We then traded some small units in the second turn, as he couldn't touch my backfield but I couldn't get my second stealer squad into combat. Game ended at this point on time (2 hour rounds), with the score being 21 to 21.
My second and third games were vs. almost identical Chaos lists. Poxwalkers, Typhus, Morty, Mortars. One of them had some 'zerkers in a Dreadclaw, the other had extra Blight Drones. In both games I alpha'd the Poxwalkers, 'stealer charged the big guys, and the Hive Guard failed to hurt the Mortars, who ate them alive. I had one win and one loss, with the loss being heavily impacted by me not realizing just how much punishment his units could take and under committing my forces. Both were close games, with the most memorable moment being when Swarmy and 19 'stealers got the charge on a wounded Morty. Swarmy did all but one wound, the stealers finished him, and I got two extra CP out of it.
The third game was against an armor heavy IG player. I was pretty burned out, and didn't bother with about a third of my game, skipping shooting the 'gants a few times and letting my infestation nodes get removed before a the 'stealers came out of them to avoid having to take the time to set up the unit. I ended up losing by one point, so I'm reasonably confident I could have won the game had it not been the final game of an event I was not going to place in.
Overall, I liked how the army played. The Hive Guard did what they should have, I was charging the targets I wanted to the turn I wanted to, and the Swarmlord made it past first turn shooting much more often than I thought he would. The combo basically means I have to do 600-700 points of damage in the first turn to get value, and I feel like I did 600-700 points worth of damage consistently. (The logic is that Swarmlord, pod, and either 'stealers or the devilgants will get killed in one turn, so I have to do enough damage on the alpha strike to make it worth losing them).
I feel that hiding Hive Guard is our best option for Kronos anti-tank shooting, simply because of how easy it is to loose 2-3 gun beasts in a single turn of shooting. I can giving up Kronos for always in cover and using a Malenthrope to give a gunline that sweet -1 to hit 2+ save, but I lack Malenthropes and don't think Venomthropes will work for it, so I haven't been able to try it out.
I liked having the infestation node Genestealers for counter charges and clearing out deep strikers, but they are expensive. I also realized that occupying backfield space is really important in 8th. I spent some time after the event thinking that my assumption that both 'stealer squads should be in reserve is a error, and that I should deploy one of them instead. This made me consider running Horma's instead of the second 'stealer squad, which would provide interesting flexibility and net me some spare points, possibly for poison on the 'stealers.
Dynas wrote: Dumb question perhaps: is the -1 to hit relic the Kraken Chameleon trait? How do you have that twice?
It's the kraken relic, not the kraken warlord trait. I have it on my warlord flyrant.
The Kraken trait is the one that lets a unit within 6" fight first.
Marmatag wrote: I'm super shocked your Trygons lived as long as they did, honestly. Mine always get blown up the turn they come on, or the very next game turn if i went second.
Do you find that having a monstrous bio cannon on a flyrant would have helped or hindered? Specifically the HVC.
That is typically my experience as well. The DG matchup he wasn't able to shoot his big guns because he was locked up. The SM player I think he did some damage to it now that I think about it, I don't quite remember TBH. I know it made it to combat with a Rhino. Actually, I think it was pretty hurt when it got there and maybe it failed to kill the Rhino? Fuzzy memory on that game. The last game he got murked by oblits, as expected. I think Trygons are a very good choice, but only in a list with drop flyrants. If you don't have the flyrants, they will 100% get focused down as soon as they show up. On top of that, their charge is just not reliable enough, and unlike GS they can't spread out and grab people. So you're left with hoping for that 9" charge into whatever screen you pop up near (And if youre bringing dev gants, it's pretty standard for you to not be near something the Trygon wants to charge), after which you get shot to pieces. Yet, you get games like the DG one where enemy firepower is otherwise incapacitated, or like my nid vs nid game last tourney where they are focusing flyrants, and then Trygons can do a LOT of damage. They're so fast, and hit way harder than anything else vs tough targets, nothing else compares except GS with some kind of buff, which don't also double as a drop pod.
No, definitely no interest in the HVC. Need weight of dice. Outside of the times I roll 1s and 2s like its my job, the 12 shots are absolutely where its at. I rarely feel the need to shoot them at big stuff, and generally use them for clearing screens or dealing with fire support infantry. The MRC are absolutely crucial, those things are savage as hell for being free. The reroll to wound is so, so good. I couldn't imagine running a flyrant without a melee weapon. I am sometimes tempted to try deathspitters, but the massive damage drop isn't really worth the 6", even if there are times when it would let me shoot something that is being screened.
babelfish wrote: I played a local four game event on Saturday, with around 16-20 players attending. I took a Jormundr/Kronos Swarmlord+'stealers build and went 1W, 2L, 1D. The event used the ITC missions and new FAQ's.
My army constisted of (Jormungdr) Swarmlord+pod, 2x1 Neurothrope, 2x19 'stealers, 1x27 Termagant with devourers, 2x3 rending claw Raveners, (Kronos) 2x1 Neurothrope, 2x3 Rippers, 2x4 impaler cannon Hive Guard. The overall plan was to deploy the Hive Guard and Rippers out of line of sight and forward of the Neurothropes to counter alpha strikes, and to deep strike the rest, using the devourers to clear out screening units and the Swarmlord+'stealer combo to delete key units. The event did not permit duplicate detachments, and I only have 8 Hive Guard, so the Kronos detachment ended up being a patrol. If I could have had duplicate detachments, I would have dropped the rending claws on the Raveners and added 3rd Ripper unit to the Kronos detachment to make it a Battalion.
I played against IG, Chaos, Chaos, and IG. Easily half of the armies present were one of those two factions, with the rest being mostly Marines. There was a strong Tyranid presence, with several different builds, which pleased me to see, and a single Tau drone army, who did quite well.
My first game was against an IG player who outflanks? a Shadowsword + support tanks, with lots of drop squads and a light backfield. I have played him at every event I've gone to in the last two months, so I have a good idea of what his list does. I went first, leaving a unit of 'stealers in the infestation nodes, cleared out a big chunk of his backline, including most of his Mortars, then lost my assault force to the superheavy's shooting. Between the two of us we threw so many dice and deployed so many units that it took over an hour to finish the first turn. We then traded some small units in the second turn, as he couldn't touch my backfield but I couldn't get my second stealer squad into combat. Game ended at this point on time (2 hour rounds), with the score being 21 to 21.
My second and third games were vs. almost identical Chaos lists. Poxwalkers, Typhus, Morty, Mortars. One of them had some 'zerkers in a Dreadclaw, the other had extra Blight Drones. In both games I alpha'd the Poxwalkers, 'stealer charged the big guys, and the Hive Guard failed to hurt the Mortars, who ate them alive. I had one win and one loss, with the loss being heavily impacted by me not realizing just how much punishment his units could take and under committing my forces. Both were close games, with the most memorable moment being when Swarmy and 19 'stealers got the charge on a wounded Morty. Swarmy did all but one wound, the stealers finished him, and I got two extra CP out of it.
The third game was against an armor heavy IG player. I was pretty burned out, and didn't bother with about a third of my game, skipping shooting the 'gants a few times and letting my infestation nodes get removed before a the 'stealers came out of them to avoid having to take the time to set up the unit. I ended up losing by one point, so I'm reasonably confident I could have won the game had it not been the final game of an event I was not going to place in.
Overall, I liked how the army played. The Hive Guard did what they should have, I was charging the targets I wanted to the turn I wanted to, and the Swarmlord made it past first turn shooting much more often than I thought he would. The combo basically means I have to do 600-700 points of damage in the first turn to get value, and I feel like I did 600-700 points worth of damage consistently. (The logic is that Swarmlord, pod, and either 'stealers or the devilgants will get killed in one turn, so I have to do enough damage on the alpha strike to make it worth losing them).
I feel that hiding Hive Guard is our best option for Kronos anti-tank shooting, simply because of how easy it is to loose 2-3 gun beasts in a single turn of shooting. I can giving up Kronos for always in cover and using a Malenthrope to give a gunline that sweet -1 to hit 2+ save, but I lack Malenthropes and don't think Venomthropes will work for it, so I haven't been able to try it out.
I liked having the infestation node Genestealers for counter charges and clearing out deep strikers, but they are expensive. I also realized that occupying backfield space is really important in 8th. I spent some time after the event thinking that my assumption that both 'stealer squads should be in reserve is a error, and that I should deploy one of them instead. This made me consider running Horma's instead of the second 'stealer squad, which would provide interesting flexibility and net me some spare points, possibly for poison on the 'stealers.
All of this sounds about how I expect that list to play.
One thing, Hive Guard only have a 4+ save, so they only get a 3+ with jorm. Having swapped a mal for venoms, I was really surprised at how little shooting they took-most people were too busy shooting important stuff-but as soon as they started taking fire they evaporated.
Dynas wrote: Dumb question perhaps: is the -1 to hit relic the Kraken Chameleon trait? How do you have that twice?
It's the kraken relic, not the kraken warlord trait. I have it on my warlord flyrant.
The Kraken trait is the one that lets a unit within 6" fight first.
I may be wrong but I don't think you can duplicate relics.
I know you can take more than one but don't believe you can take the same one twice.
I'm somewhat surprised at both the tournament reports on this page timing out so regularly? I've found I almost always finish games in plenty of time. Any thoughts on why the game is dragging out?
Second tournament with 2hr rounds is a little tight. I don't like 4 games in a day as you usually cant be bothered by the 4th game (as displayed here) and 2hr rounds to cram them in makes all the game short.
The Kraken relic and Venom/Malanthrope aura stack. That's how you get -2 to hit.
A lot of my games don't reach turn 4+. Most of them are against shooty lists where there is a lot of movement or falling back and a lot of dice rolls. The faster games are actually against other melee heavy armies. I'm not sure why but we always seem to get past turn 3.
Zimko wrote: The Kraken relic and Venom/Malanthrope aura stack. That's how you get -2 to hit.
A lot of my games don't reach turn 4+. Most of them are against shooty lists where there is a lot of movement or falling back and a lot of dice rolls. The faster games are actually against other melee heavy armies. I'm not sure why but we always seem to get past turn 3.
The question wasn't about stacking.
The question is how two separate hive tyrants have the same relic.
As far as timing goes, 2.5 hours is not a lot of time to play a 2k point game. Most of mine end up being 4 hours. You really have to be constantly going and have all the stats memorized. Not reference the rule book etc...
Also, having lots of models doesn't help either.
As far as timing goes, 2.5 hours is not a lot of time to play a 2k point game. Most of mine end up being 4 hours. You really have to be constantly going and have all the stats memorized. Not reference the rule book etc...
Also, having lots of models doesn't help either.
That GT was 3 hr rounds, but the last 30 min was a "death clock". As soon as you hit last 30 mins, you start a chess timer for whoever's turn it is. Each player divides the last 30 min equally, so, you have 15 min each. As soon as you end a turn, their timer starts. If I finish my turn in 5 min, then he takes 15 min, at the 15 min mark his turn ends and it immediately becomes my turn. I can then play as many turns as my time and the game allows, with him getting no turns because he used his 15 min.
I thought the rule was an interesting idea, but horribly punishing for armies that use all phases of the game. Assaults take FAR more time than shooting, and involve BOTH players, so an assault army will blow through that 15 min quickly, while the shooting army can go through turns in a few mins each. This was a problem for me in my last game.
The death clock sounds like garbage unless you pause it when your opponent is rolling.
In 8th edition there are a lot of situations where you use "fast dice rolling" when you should actually, RAW, be rolling dice 1 at a time. Especially if the result can potentially deal 1 mortal wound, for instance, because you allocate differently in that scenario.
WIth the clock if they burn the time, you could literallly just not move anything. Do pyskers smite and shoot. Skip assault, repeat over and over. that does seem a bit odd
Marmatag wrote: The death clock sounds like garbage unless you pause it when your opponent is rolling.
In 8th edition there are a lot of situations where you use "fast dice rolling" when you should actually, RAW, be rolling dice 1 at a time. Especially if the result can potentially deal 1 mortal wound, for instance, because you allocate differently in that scenario.
It's traditional to switch the clock over when your opponent rolls. Good chess clocks just have a lever you slap. You announce the number of successful shots; Slap the clock; They roll the dice, announce the number of successes and slap the clock over.
I loved Death Clock in WMH, even if I played horde lists and probably clocked out more often than my opponent. It helps you keep that tournament mindset.
With ITC levels of LOS blocking terrain I think you can hide a normal swarmlord model fairly easily, the big question imo is if he is worth using for his points. I have been very happy not using him so far, and feel I haven't suffered in mobility whatsoever.
Traceoftoxin wrote: At my last GT, 2 of the 3 top tyranid lists were playing swarmlord with no pod or guards. They relied on using LOS blocking terrain to keep him alive.
He'll be fine with 3 guard, for at least 1-2 turns, if you don't play him aggressively.
I saw one of those lists. It waw more focused on board controll than yours. Making him come to you.
Traceoftoxin wrote:At my last GT, 2 of the 3 top tyranid lists were playing swarmlord with no pod or guards. They relied on using LOS blocking terrain to keep him alive.
He'll be fine with 3 guard, for at least 1-2 turns, if you don't play him aggressively.
jifel wrote:With ITC levels of LOS blocking terrain I think you can hide a normal swarmlord model fairly easily, the big question imo is if he is worth using for his points. I have been very happy not using him so far, and feel I haven't suffered in mobility whatsoever.
If you don't use the 'hive commander' ability specifically to bypass the bubblewrap after the devourergaunts removed them, then its better to use these points for something else. 300 points in the back so that you can torpedo units forward is a bit to much for my taste.
Whether or not to use the Swarmlord seems to be the #1 question for Nids. The power of a first turn charge with 20 stealers or 30 hormagaunts is just immense. It's less about what they kill and much more about the effect of tying up multiple enemy units so they can't shoot back at your big scary dudes as they advance. Really tough call.
To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.
You guys can argue your taste re: swarmlord, but as it stands, two of the top players in the country are using him without guard/pod, without devourer gaunts, from the backfield, specifically to torpedo stealers into enemies.
Traceoftoxin wrote: At my last GT, 2 of the 3 top tyranid lists were playing swarmlord with no pod or guards. They relied on using LOS blocking terrain to keep him alive.
He'll be fine with 3 guard, for at least 1-2 turns, if you don't play him aggressively.
I saw one of those lists. It waw more focused on board controll than yours. Making him come to you.
You've got it backwards. My list is entirely about board control, their lists were about wiping out the enemy with stealer torpedos and mass hive guard fire. My list is ~150 bodies, designed to keep the opponent from ever leaving their deployment zone, and if they do, enveloping them and preventing them from scoring through attrition.
Swarmlord definitely isn't a bad unit by any means. He does provide exceptional utility, I just think he lends himself to an aggressive playstyle. Also, this may be a meta thing because my area tends to have more reserves and flier based armies than most, both of which the Swarmlord isn't nearly as good against. Swarmlord does his best work when launching Genestealers into a gunline of cowering guardsmen or marines and overrunning them. If the enemy flies or is going to DS with hundreds of storm Bolter shots, that's not quite as effective.
I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.
I played about a dozen games with Swarmlord. He always did a lot or nothing at all. He does enable a specific playstyle more than anything else in the book, I just think that playstyle has a small number of hard counters. I try to play a more all around list without a blind spot like that. It's not as good at crushing a gunline as a Swarmy list I'll admit. But, back in 7th I played a Genestealer cult army that could destroy anything except Tau, or Servo Skulls. The last GT of 7th I played three consecutive Tau and servo skulls lists!
Traceoftoxin wrote: I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.
I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.
I agree with you. I think Tyranids biggest strength is board control. If the smite nerf hadn't come through, I may have gone to a 4-5 neurothrope army with nothing but infantry models.
As it is, we have no HQ that provides all of the things a flyrant does, for anywhere near the cost. Broodlord hits a little harder in combat, but only gets 1 cast, no shooting and no fly. While still costing almost as much. Primes are just sad. They're nowhere near as hard hitting as flyrants or broodlords, have no casts, and are slower.
So, I feel stuck using flyrants, as they're the only HQ that fills the roles I need it to, now that casting smite 4+ times is going to start getting pretty rough.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.
I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.
If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works.
So I played the Swarmlord Kraken/Kronos list last night against a tough IG list with the terrible long deployment (Hammer and Anvil). Given that I did not have a Trygon to deep strike near his zone with stealers, and my antitank was underwhelming, it was a tough game and a slight loss.
I was conservative with the swarmlord because I was like 35-40 inches from his tanks, and could not charge his flyers, so swarmy lived as he had his tyrant guard and the malanthrope protection. 6 Hive Guard did great. Double shot them every turn and took out a valkerie and vendetta during the game.
Flyrant did terrible. Double smited a Vendetta, swarmlord grabbed him and had him charge the vendetta with three wounds remaining, and the 4 Strength 6 MRC attacks are just underwhelming versus a Toughness 7 (even with rerolls), 3+ save chasse. Hit 3 times, wounded twice, he made one 6+ save, rolled one wound, picked up the reroll and rolled two wounds. The valkerie then flew away like 36 inches. Very underwhelming and considering either dropping him from the list, or making him a shooting platform with a Miasma cannon and Devourers (and smite) he would be a better damage dealing platform. What do you think?
Enemy list was 4 tanks, Vendetta, Valkerie, Forgeworld Avenger Strike fighter. Bull Ogryns with psychic buffs and a special character coming in from the sides along with the outflanking horsemen. Taurox and a hellhound. Brutal ranged list with lots of mobility.
I have found genestealers to be very underwhelming versus a toughness 8 chassis (especially one that has 2 heavy flamers). What have you all been doing regarding antitank in this addition?
A flyrant should average about 3 damage from smite+scream, ~1 damage from shooting (With 2 devourers), and ~4 damage from melee (with MRC). So, 8 damage in one turn against a T7 flier. That's not optimal, but, it's pretty good all things considered.
I've found my flyrants work best in pairs, as two generally do enough damage to cripple or kill most things, but one typically doesn't do enough to take a big target out of the fight. They're amazing at bullying backfields, though. If you're lucky with 4++, they're surprisingly durable too.
Vs T8, 3+ our best damage dealers are;
#1 Trygon - 32 points per damage
#2 Shock Guard - 35 points per damage
#3 A3 Genestealers - 36 points per damage
#4 Double tap Rupture fex - 42 points per damage
#5 BS3 HVC/2 DS fex - 45 points per damage
#6 Double tap exo - 52 points per damage
#7 Impaler Guard - 54 points per damage
Problem with Genestealers is variance is not kind when fishing for 6s, though it is offset by typically large numbers of dice.
Masutaman wrote: So I played the Swarmlord Kraken/Kronos list last night against a tough IG list with the terrible long deployment (Hammer and Anvil). Given that I did not have a Trygon to deep strike near his zone with stealers, and my antitank was underwhelming, it was a tough game and a slight loss.
I was conservative with the swarmlord because I was like 35-40 inches from his tanks, and could not charge his flyers, so swarmy lived as he had his tyrant guard and the malanthrope protection. 6 Hive Guard did great. Double shot them every turn and took out a valkerie and vendetta during the game.
Flyrant did terrible. Double smited a Vendetta, swarmlord grabbed him and had him charge the vendetta with three wounds remaining, and the 4 Strength 6 MRC attacks are just underwhelming versus a Toughness 7 (even with rerolls), 3+ save chasse. Hit 3 times, wounded twice, he made one 6+ save, rolled one wound, picked up the reroll and rolled two wounds. The valkerie then flew away like 36 inches. Very underwhelming and considering either dropping him from the list, or making him a shooting platform with a Miasma cannon and Devourers (and smite) he would be a better damage dealing platform. What do you think?
Enemy list was 4 tanks, Vendetta, Valkerie, Forgeworld Avenger Strike fighter. Bull Ogryns with psychic buffs and a special character coming in from the sides along with the outflanking horsemen. Taurox and a hellhound. Brutal ranged list with lots of mobility.
I have found genestealers to be very underwhelming versus a toughness 8 chassis (especially one that has 2 heavy flamers). What have you all been doing regarding antitank in this addition?
Flyers, ogrins, outflank and hellhound.
Finally one astra militarum player that understood how to make a list that doesn't only go pew pew but also tries to have a say against assault armies.
TraceofToxin - That is some great information. Thanks!
Are the beta rules in effect at tournaments etc regarding +1 for each additional Smite? Using the Scream to get around this is golden. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Double tapping using stategems on the Hive Guard looks like the cheapest option. Trygons are awesome, but they kill something then immediately die. The Hive guard typically kill all game.
Maybe I can try again with the flyrant. I like flinging him around with the swarm lord as his range is massive.
jifel wrote: To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.
The strat prevents you form charging though, does it not? Or are they charging your genstealers? There is something here that eludes me.
jifel wrote: To be honest, I think I've gotten into close combat turn 1 in every single game that I have deployed my Genestealers instead of reserving them, purely on the merits of being Kraken and using the advance twice Strat. I just feel like that for $228 and a cp is much better than investing in Swarmy.
The strat prevents you form charging though, does it not? Or are they charging your genstealers? There is something here that eludes me.
The MOVE twice strat stops charging, the double advance strat does not.
So this the purest form - I should clarify that this is ETC event, so tabling you opponent gives you a perfect score. The list that won the last event had 37 reapers and 30 swooping hawks..
As I mentioned earlier, I've been toying with list ideas like that since the codex dropped. Honestly, I think it might work, but I'm not so sure as to invest in another 50+ stealers. The most models I've lost in a single turn of 8th edition 40k is ~60, usually mostly horms, but sometimes with 10-20 stealers as well. I wonder if going ~60 kraken stealers, and ~40 jorm extended carapace stealers would work? Do double battalion?
Those many, many stealer lists are all gross and i like it. Too bad I've only got 60.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best I've got with all my stealers (and Hormagaunts for that matter). The Flyrant feels a bit out of place but I'm hoping with smart positioning and probably using metabolic overdrive on the malanthrope I can get him -2 to hit for a turn and get some mileage out of him with every thing else that's bearing down quickly. Is the broodlord worth it with *only* 60 stealers? Am I burning my CP too quickly? First turn would likely see 2 CP burn for Stealers and Devilgants to enter tunnel, 2 CP for double shooting either Hives or Devilgants, 1 for Metabolic overdrive, and 1 for double advance, leaving me 3.
astro_nomicon wrote: Those many, many stealer lists are all gross and i like it. Too bad I've only got 60.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best I've got with all my stealers (and Hormagaunts for that matter). The Flyrant feels a bit out of place but I'm hoping with smart positioning and probably using metabolic overdrive on the malanthrope I can get him -2 to hit for a turn and get some mileage out of him with every thing else that's bearing down quickly. Is the broodlord worth it with *only* 60 stealers? Am I burning my CP too quickly? First turn would likely see 2 CP burn for Stealers and Devilgants to enter tunnel, 2 CP for double shooting either Hives or Devilgants, 1 for Metabolic overdrive, and 1 for double advance, leaving me 3.
re the broodlord worth it question: Its a fine balance isn't it, prob the better question is can you get anything better for the points? has not far off a hive tyrants costs and there's always more stealers to be had but you don't have anymore so its moot. you could have more board control with like an extra 30 horms I guess?
If you play ITC missions shouldn't the 20 stealer squad be 19 so you deny secondary's? I don't play ITC but I see that a lot.
Also, you should remember to go character hunting with one squad of genestealers a turn for your D3 command points back.. you could prob spread out the killing to make sure you got the chance of getting D3 a turn..
a: your stealers hang around long enough for his buff to be worth it.
b. He survives long enough to kill back his points or buff the stealers to do the same.
I find he is not worth it if you only take one unit of stealers. If your bringing 2 units of 19 or 3 units of 16 he has a good chance of buffing the damage enough for him to be worth.
I want to like him, but the 4+/5++ on T5 with 6 wounds means he really doesnt live long enough once he actually gets to the fighting.
He is strong in melee againgst most characters (and can regain command points againgst them) but its not always easy to get him there.
I'd almost always rather have another FHT over him, or even a nuerothrope and more troops.
I just go 6 carnifex ordered online - finally came into stock.
Dakka fex just seems the best - but I am tempted by the HVC 2x DS . Cost a bit more but start doing damage turn 1. Anyone have any experience with that build?
I think they would be a strong choice ~140 pts, and definitely competitive at 130 or less.
You give up so much in utility and CC durability to take one over a flyrant, and all you get in return is a miniscule cost savings (16 pts), little more melee damage output and durability vs shooting. Just not cheap enough to justify it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I just go 6 carnifex ordered online - finally came into stock.
Dakka fex just seems the best - but I am tempted by the HVC 2x DS . Cost a bit more but start doing damage turn 1. Anyone have any experience with that build?
If I was going to use shooty fex, I'd probably do 4 HVC/DS and 2 dakkafex. We have so many tools for removing infantry at short range, the HVC lets us reach out and touch stuff like reapers, and put damage on vehicles.
Eihnlazer wrote: Spamming dakafex isn't a good idea. The range is too short on them and no AP means your only good at taking down infantry.
I'd rather devourer gaunts for the same points most of the time.
HVC+devourers is pretty solid though.
I was big on dakka gants until I got hive guard. Plus rolling 180 dice wasn't very fun. Another big issue with dakka gants I've found is armies ability to intercept - ESP eldar.
Im not sure exactly why they felt the need to not allow us to put our smaller characters in a pod when we could just use jorm CP to get them there anyway, but it is an annoyance.
9 warriors in a pod with a prime would make primes actually viable for use at a tournament.
Not horribly miffed that broodlords cant though, as they are relatively easy to get up the field. They just tend to die as soon as they finish their first round of combat/buffs.
You either charge them with a lot of models really fast and tie them up, or you outshoot them.
Tyranids normally couldn't outshoot a guard list, but if you have -1 to hit auras and some kronos Hive guard you can really hurt their big guns fast.
6 hive guard will degrade 2 russ's per turn with the double shoot strat from out of LOS. Then they hit you on 6's and can be mostly ignored.
Kraken genestealers + devilbomb will eradicate the guards screens and get into their tanks preventing them from shooting. Since guard don't have flying tanks, just tagging them with horms or genestealers is quite effective at shutting down their firepower.
You either charge them with a lot of models really fast and tie them up, or you outshoot them.
Tyranids normally couldn't outshoot a guard list, but if you have -1 to hit auras and some kronos Hive guard you can really hurt their big guns fast.
6 hive guard will degrade 2 russ's per turn with the double shoot strat from out of LOS. Then they hit you on 6's and can be mostly ignored.
Kraken genestealers + devilbomb will eradicate the guards screens and get into their tanks preventing them from shooting. Since guard don't have flying tanks, just tagging them with horms or genestealers is quite effective at shutting down their firepower.
Occasionally you can use to the devilbomb to tag the tanks as well. Normally doesn't happen unless Swarmy is still alive to give them extra movement, but if so, you can try to get most of the gunline with the 'gaunts and use 'horms/'stealers to hit something you want dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traceoftoxin wrote: I agree with you. I think Tyranids biggest strength is board control. If the smite nerf hadn't come through, I may have gone to a 4-5 neurothrope army with nothing but infantry models.
As it is, we have no HQ that provides all of the things a flyrant does, for anywhere near the cost. Broodlord hits a little harder in combat, but only gets 1 cast, no shooting and no fly. While still costing almost as much. Primes are just sad. They're nowhere near as hard hitting as flyrants or broodlords, have no casts, and are slower.
So, I feel stuck using flyrants, as they're the only HQ that fills the roles I need it to, now that casting smite 4+ times is going to start getting pretty rough.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I mean, I don't think he's an auto-take, nor do I think he fits into my style of play. My point is, there are good players who think he IS an auto-take. If you're of the opinion that he's not worth taking at all, then I think you should be re-evaluating your opinion. He enables a very specific playstyle in a way that nothing else does. If you can't see the value in swarmlord, then you should try playing him.
I see the value and why/how to play him, i still dont like him nor play with him. My lists dont need him or want him, sure turn one charges are good, but we can do that without a 300pt model. Just b.c one high score nid player likes him doesnt mean he is an auto take.
If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works.
I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.
babelfish wrote: I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.
Elaborate on what? I don't use him, I've said I don't use him. I'm just pointing out, people that are playing at the highest levels ARE using him, and are doing well with him. THOSE people do not use pods or guard. I've also pointed out that there are those of us also doing well against good opponents with good lists who do not use him. I'm saying he is absolutely viable, while not being an auto-take, and does not necessarily require a pod/guard, which seems to be the automatic thing to tell players.
From what I understand, they use LOS to protect him. Other than that, you'd have to ask them.
babelfish wrote: I would love to have you elaborate on this a bit more. I find that unless I go 100% (2-3 Tyrant Guard + Venom/Malenthropes) the Swarmlord lasts exactly as long as it takes for my opponents to decide they want him dead. With the way cover and line of sight works, I find it almost impossible to get him into a position were he is both useful and out of line of sight vs heavy guns. The only times I have got him into CC is when my opponent prioritizes Hive Guard/Exocrines/Tyranofexes over Swarmy. When I drop pod him, I find I get utility out of his casting, the locked in 'stealer charge, and a huge fire magnet that keeps my gunline unmolested for a turn. Is that worth the 423 points for him and the pod? Depends on if the 'stealers are able to do enough damage to important enough targets.
Elaborate on what? I don't use him, I've said I don't use him. I'm just pointing out, people that are playing at the highest levels ARE using him, and are doing well with him. THOSE people do not use pods or guard. I've also pointed out that there are those of us also doing well against good opponents with good lists who do not use him. I'm saying he is absolutely viable, while not being an auto-take, and does not necessarily require a pod/guard, which seems to be the automatic thing to tell players.
From what I understand, they use LOS to protect him. Other than that, you'd have to ask them.
"If you think all he does is enable turn 1 charges, you don't understand how he works"
Using LoS to move units multi times isn't what he asked.
Please explain that he isn't only good for Dbl movements and there is something else that makes him better.
Also, you don't need LoS or Dbl movements when you can still charge turn 1 other ways, or DS for protection, or have -2 to hit instead of -1. Also show me these players other than the 1, show me the tournament results with the codex. B.c the lists i've seen (for smaller tournaments nothing to large another reason why i ask b.c i havent seent hem in a large tournaent win) dont have SL.
The bests going lists i've seen are Kraken Genestealers with Flyrant -1 to hit, and a 2nd detachment of Hiveguard/Neurothropes and Exocrines.
You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.
Thats still dbl movement...........
That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...
We've discussed it a bunch. He doesn't get it. It's whatever, moving on.
Statistically fex are pretty comparable to most IG vehicles, and gants are amazing screens. Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?
My hunch is that stealers are just too good to pass up, and so strong in the meta.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.
Thats still dbl movement...........
That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...
Yes i understand, but he kept saying that Dbl movement isnt the key to it, but it is... his entire strategy (the Swarmlord) is to dbl move key units at key times. And i;m saying he isnt a must take at all when we have many ways to get where we want when we want for cheaper.
Traceoftoxin wrote: You don't use him specifically for turn 1 assaults, you use him to move in the shooting phase past the spot where screening units were. Something we've discussed ad nauseum. Something nothing else enables.
Thats still dbl movement...........
That can take place after we've skewered the outer layers with Devourers etc revealing the juicy center of thier formations...
Yes i understand, but he kept saying that Dbl movement isnt the key to it, but it is... his entire strategy (the Swarmlord) is to dbl move key units at key times. And i;m saying he isnt a must take at all when we have many ways to get where we want when we want for cheaper.
The point is it isn't JUST double move in the movement. It's move, shooting phase, move. The power house effect is you can gun down screens before moving past their previous locations. Other armys have ways to move twice. None of them get their second move in the shooting phase.
Traceoftoxin wrote: We've discussed it a bunch. He doesn't get it. It's whatever, moving on.
Statistically fex are pretty comparable to most IG vehicles, and gants are amazing screens. Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?
My hunch is that stealers are just too good to pass up, and so strong in the meta.
Fexes are not comparable to most IG vehicle. Catachan manticore, basilisk and leman russ tanks takes down fexes easily. Board control is great but in the end stuff still got to die so a bunch of gaunts with fexes won't do it. Gaunts are only good for anti infantry devourer shooting or a few hormagaunts to tie up units following by genestealers.
Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage
HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.
Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr
The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.
The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.
Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.
Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.
Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.
The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Is there a discernable reaspn why we aren't seeing nid hordes with fex gun platforms?
Part of it might be model availability. For as long as I can remember large units of Gaunts have not been especially popular as troops competitively.
- In 4th edition they were too expensive and took points/threat saturation away from monsters. (Didn't play this edition, started in 5th. Hence short summery. ) - In 5th edition the fearless mechanics were dreadful for large units with automatic casualties being suffered based on how badly you lost in assault in exchange for not running away and the edition itself more or less required armor crackers in every slot to deal with vehicle spam, favoring Tervigons and Genestealers as Troops with only a token Termagant presence to unlock the Tervigons and for spawning. - In early 6th Tervigon/Termagant lists were admittedly fairly popular due to the improved fearless and new biomancy powers but when the codex nerfed the Tervigon they and their offspring ended up getting replaced with aggressive flying lists to deal with the growing psychic-fueled "deathstar" problems, with Ripper bases as token objective scorers. - Lastly, 7th edition had such extreme rate of fire firepower available that the best countermeasure was to take the minimum bodycount per unit as possible to cause wasteful overkill, leading to the MSU Mucolid/Lictor/Tyrant builds.
Also in regards to the math you did in the last post, did you include the bonus from Enhanced Senses? I know one of the biggest gripes over in the Guard tactic thread when skimming for GSC intel tactics is that the bulk of their anti-tank shooting needs a 4+ or worse to hit on, while it currently is very much possible to make a Tyranid list where all of the heavy guns hit on a 3+ using ES 'fexes, Exocrines, and Hive Guard.
Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage
HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.
Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr
The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.
The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.
Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.
Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.
Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.
The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.
Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.
Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.
Catachan battle cannon firing twice averages 4.44 damage. A lascannon adds .97 damage. So, 5.41 damage for 164 points. About 30.31 points per damage
HVC+2DS averages 2.78 at 116, for 41.73 points per damage, or 126 (Sport cysts) for 45.32 points per damage.
Firing at eachother, Catachan vs Jormungandr
The Catachan averages 2.71 damage (60.51ppd) vs spore cysts, and 4.11 (39.90ppd) vs normal.
The fex does 2.44. (51.64ppd) in return.
Yes, the catachan LRBT is better, but it comparable. It is not a complete blow out. The fex is only marginally useless in CC, can move further and shoot at full, has lower range, etc.
Compared to Taurox Prime, carnifex are actually better in some metrics, particularly after the nerf.
Comparing anything to AM manticores/basilisks is an exercise in futility because they're severely undercosted, even with the small points nerf they got in CA.
The point remains, that Tyranids have a shooting platform whose durability and damage output is comparable to Taurox/Leman Russ. We also can field much stronger offensive assault capabilities, and have true fearless hordes.
My math says that a HVCDS fex scores at 34 points per damage on a T7 3+.
1,72 from HVC and 1,98 from DS at 126 points. The russ instead nets 35,48 points per damage. Dakkafex is actually better (but much shorter range).
By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).
I was thinking of looking into starting my SW army again. How does wulfen compare to genestealers?
30 genestealers are 360 points. 10 wulfen with 2 stormshields and 2 hammers are 360 ish points. How does that compare?
Stealers are s4 rending. Wulfen are s5.
Wulfen are 4+ 5++ 2 wounds each. Stealers are 5++ 5+++ with catalyst.
Are wulfen viable?
I know this is the tyranid thread, but people who play genestealers are better at evaluating them. The wulfen also re-roll charges. They are a bit like behemoth in that way. My one consern is less attacks. 30 stealers are more impressive then 10 wulfen, no?
Spoletta wrote: By the way, both the russ and the dakkafex are more efficent point wise than manticores (42).
That's why I don't care much about the bland math comparisons. Doesn't tell you anything about tactics, how to use units and the synergy within an army.
I always fire first with my manticore because I can always use the Catachan reroll for one dice and the regular reroll stratagem for the other one if needed. Its save to assume that that will really bump up the amount of shots. Every catachan force got harker so those 1 to hit get a reroll.
I played with a manticore + 3x basilisks. Shall we put these in the backfield and deploy 4 shooty carnifexes in front of them and see what happens? Do this with all deployment setup's and let both armies get first turn a few times and think how the 'math' will turn out.
Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.
Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.
I mean, it's not really cherry picking. We can do the math (like we just did, showing carnifex are close), but like you said, it doesn't take into account the range and ignores LOS of the manticore and basilisks. They're different weapon platforms with different jobs. They're also criminally undercosted considering they can do that much damage anywhere on the board without LOS, comparing to them is like trying to compare to malefic lords before CA, or dark reapers, it's simply doesn't make sense to try to compare a fairly priced unit vs something that is clearly overpowered.
They are comparable, in damage, and durability. The math supports it. What small advantages some of the vehicles have in some ways, the carnifex has other advantages in others.
But if you don't like doing the math, you should go out there and show us what works best. Write up some battle reports, we'd love to glean insights. The math is all we have to determine what units are likely to perform how, even if you are just eyeballing it, you're going off of some level of mental math.
40k is about combining tactics and math, you will not win against good players using only one of the two.
Your "cherry picking" of a scenario is as clearly trolling as almost everything else you post. And ironically, with jorm and the -1 to hit, I think the HVC/DS carnifex will actually end up winning in a vacuum. Two unsaved wounds from HVC will degrade any of the arty pieces to hitting on 5s (6s with the spore cysts). Your catachan manticore averages 2 damage, and the catachan basilisks 1.5 each. If they all fire first, they aren't even very likely to kill a single fex. Meanwhile, just the HVC should average 1.77 damage each, so four should knock a vehicle down to hitting on 5s. Next round one of the AM vehicles is doing half as much damage, a carnifex dies, and one is probably at about half. Carnifex should be firing with all their guns, enough to knock another vehicle down to half, or wipe one out. Either way, the remaining will probably kill a second fex. Third round the two remaining fex are inside the AM deployment zone, should be able to knock another vehicle down to half with all of their guns. At this point, if the nid player has knocked 3 vehicles down to half (Including manticore), the AM player should be doing just shy of 4 damage every shooting phase, while the nid player should have 2 fex left doing just shy of 3 damage each. The AM player hasn't been able to move any of his forces, while the Carnifex are wholly within their deployment zone. Variance GREATLY favors the fex in the math, with them hitting on 3s and the AM all hitting on 5s.
But hey, you didn't bother doing the math and just thought you could throw out a seemingly impossible situation, and you proved my point. If you're not going to actually add anything meaningful to the thread, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to tear down what other people post without providing any meaningful reasoning.
luke1705 wrote: Dakkafex are outclassed in their best role (anti horde) by Genestealers in both range and efficiency.
I would never leave home without Swarmy.
Genestealers outclass almost everything though, which is probably the most compelling reason to build armies around them. They're just fantastic with kraken.
Also, I don't see much mention of harpies or hive crones. Are people having any luck with them.
I’ve just picked up twenty Squigs. They’re going to be Rippers, and Hormagaunt hips for Hive Fleet Gorgrim.
TBH Harpies and Crones seem okay, priced around the Heldrake point and share it’s utility as a first turn charger that prevents a gunner unit from shooting. With Swarmlord throwing some stealers or Hormagaunts in there, the overlap with CSM Tactica reaches to the use of Warptime as well. The main problem for them with me is the move from FA to Flyer, so they can’t help fill out a Brigade.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As we compare gunner Carnifexes to battle tanks, let’s not overlook the non-degrading profile. Carnies might die faster, but taking seven wounds does not reduce their number of hits by 33%. Scant consolation when the lucky bolter hit finishes the job, of course
Also, I don't see much mention of harpies or hive crones. Are people having any luck with them.
Merry whatever-the-feth-you-celebrate you guys!
I am considering very slowly reacquiring Necrons. How far that goes is entirely based on the codex, but right now I REALLY want to kit bash a Kutlakh the World Killer and Tolok the Blinded just for fun.
Sorry I've been gone, my computer died. I won't be able to fix it till after the holiday I reacon. About the Gunfexen (HVC+Twin Deathspitters) I think a Jormongondr, or Kronos list can use them quite well. I think I posted a Jormon Gunline list just before my machine gawd became heretical.
I also think that if you plan on delivering your Stealers via Tunnel Extented Carapaces just might be the way to go. Buy Krakon speed rushers need to charge off the advance.
pinecone77 wrote: Sorry I've been gone, my computer died. I won't be able to fix it till after the holiday I reacon. About the Gunfexen (HVC+Twin Deathspitters) I think a Jormongondr, or Kronos list can use them quite well. I think I posted a Jormon Gunline list just before my machine gawd became heretical.
I also think that if you plan on delivering your Stealers via Tunnel Extented Carapaces just might be the way to go. Buy Krakon speed rushers need to charge off the advance.
Going from a 4+ to a 3+ is a really big difference. If you're getting to make that 3+ save, you're increasing your durability per point by a ton. Shorthand;
5++ means you need to take 30 wounds to lose 20
4+ means you need to take 40 wounds to lose 20
3+ means you need to take 60 wounds to lose 20
So, yeah, if you're doing jorm GS, it's probably worth it to go for the 4+.
Big problem is that asscans are -1, dark reapers are -2, heavy bolters are -1, and so on.
Biggest boon would probably be against AM, where punishers and mortars are ap 0, but they also have hell hounds, catachan battle cannons, etc. that will all throw a decent number of shots with an AP that really just makes it hard to justify taking both the 4+ and jorm.
I really want to try it, but at the same time, it feels like there is too much AP going around to justify both the cost, and the opportunity cost of charging after advancing (and even risking charging after DS!).
Lot of cherry picking here. First you make a general conclusion that AM vehicles are comparable to fexes in general and then simply seclude the manticore and basilisk because they're to good for their points. You do think the Leman russ battle tank is better but because the fex can be fast and does a little more damage in close combat their in some way comparable.
Just say the carnifex is comparable with the taurox prime. Doesn't help when that carnifex get's storm eagle missles in the face, though.
I mean, it's not really cherry picking. We can do the math (like we just did, showing carnifex are close), but like you said, it doesn't take into account the range and ignores LOS of the manticore and basilisks. They're different weapon platforms with different jobs. They're also criminally undercosted considering they can do that much damage anywhere on the board without LOS, comparing to them is like trying to compare to malefic lords before CA, or dark reapers, it's simply doesn't make sense to try to compare a fairly priced unit vs something that is clearly overpowered.
They are comparable, in damage, and durability. The math supports it. What small advantages some of the vehicles have in some ways, the carnifex has other advantages in others.
But if you don't like doing the math, you should go out there and show us what works best. Write up some battle reports, we'd love to glean insights. The math is all we have to determine what units are likely to perform how, even if you are just eyeballing it, you're going off of some level of mental math.
40k is about combining tactics and math, you will not win against good players using only one of the two.
Your "cherry picking" of a scenario is as clearly trolling as almost everything else you post. And ironically, with jorm and the -1 to hit, I think the HVC/DS carnifex will actually end up winning in a vacuum. Two unsaved wounds from HVC will degrade any of the arty pieces to hitting on 5s (6s with the spore cysts). Your catachan manticore averages 2 damage, and the catachan basilisks 1.5 each. If they all fire first, they aren't even very likely to kill a single fex. Meanwhile, just the HVC should average 1.77 damage each, so four should knock a vehicle down to hitting on 5s. Next round one of the AM vehicles is doing half as much damage, a carnifex dies, and one is probably at about half. Carnifex should be firing with all their guns, enough to knock another vehicle down to half, or wipe one out. Either way, the remaining will probably kill a second fex. Third round the two remaining fex are inside the AM deployment zone, should be able to knock another vehicle down to half with all of their guns. At this point, if the nid player has knocked 3 vehicles down to half (Including manticore), the AM player should be doing just shy of 4 damage every shooting phase, while the nid player should have 2 fex left doing just shy of 3 damage each. The AM player hasn't been able to move any of his forces, while the Carnifex are wholly within their deployment zone. Variance GREATLY favors the fex in the math, with them hitting on 3s and the AM all hitting on 5s.
But hey, you didn't bother doing the math and just thought you could throw out a seemingly impossible situation, and you proved my point. If you're not going to actually add anything meaningful to the thread, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to tear down what other people post without providing any meaningful reasoning.
I checked my math again and again and again and i didn't catch that i was using 12 shots for DS?? That's why you don't do these things after a party... Indeed the total is 2,72.
For the manticore i think that you are overestimating the result of 2d6 reroll lowest. I considered it as 7,7 shots, but this is instead underestimated since it is a dice with a reroll (4,2) plus a not rerollable dice (3,5), which is lower than 2 dices with 1 reroll. The correct number of shots is 8,2. So 4,1 hits, 2,7 wounds, 1,78 unsaved, 3,57 damage. 40,03 point/damage. Basilisks are also there: 2d6 take highest with reroll 4,95 shots 2,47 hits 1,63 wounds 1,36 unsaved 2,72 damage . 39,66 points/damage.
Manticores and basilisks get the lead on T8 targets.
That calculations though assume a fex without fleet adaptations against catachans. If the fex gets the Kronos bonus (which isn't always that easy with 24" range), he scores 3,17 damage, which is 39,70 points/damage, in line with AM gunlines. Just for the lolz, but if he also activates the pathogenic slime he sports a 25 points/damage.
For Kronos gunlines i had a wycked idea just yesterday. I think that we have one of the best screening units in the game with spinefist termagants. They lack a 5+ sure, but they are actually a big menace in melee. You play 3 or 4 squads of 30, and interlace them so that to assault one you have to assault at least 3 units. Once in melee they are shooting with rerollin ones (they didn't move in the movement phase) and on the units that didn't suffer too many losses also with rerolling ones to wound. The good stuff here is that in the way pistols work, as long as one termagant is in melee range, all termagants can shoot in melee. Obviously they are also immune to morale and likely at -1 to hit. Combine this with acid blood and that is a nasty screen, probably better than guards in some situations.
Spoletta wrote: I checked my math again and again and again and i didn't catch that i was using 12 shots for DS?? That's why you don't do these things after a party... Indeed the total is 2,72.
For the manticore i think that you are overestimating the result of 2d6 reroll lowest. I considered it as 7,7 shots, but this is instead underestimated since it is a dice with a reroll (4,2) plus a not rerollable dice (3,5), which is lower than 2 dices with 1 reroll. The correct number of shots is 8,2. So 4,1 hits, 2,7 wounds, 1,78 unsaved, 3,57 damage. 40,03 point/damage.
Basilisks are also there: 2d6 take highest with reroll 4,95 shots 2,47 hits 1,63 wounds 1,36 unsaved 2,72 damage . 39,66 points/damage.
Manticores and basilisks get the lead on T8 targets.
That calculations though assume a fex without fleet adaptations against catachans. If the fex gets the Kronos bonus (which isn't always that easy with 24" range), he scores 3,17 damage, which is 39,70 points/damage, in line with AM gunlines. Just for the lolz, but if he also activates the pathogenic slime he sports a 25 points/damage.
For Kronos gunlines i had a wycked idea just yesterday.
I think that we have one of the best screening units in the game with spinefist termagants. They lack a 5+ sure, but they are actually a big menace in melee. You play 3 or 4 squads of 30, and interlace them so that to assault one you have to assault at least 3 units. Once in melee they are shooting with rerollin ones (they didn't move in the movement phase) and on the units that didn't suffer too many losses also with rerolling ones to wound. The good stuff here is that in the way pistols work, as long as one termagant is in melee range, all termagants can shoot in melee.
Obviously they are also immune to morale and likely at -1 to hit. Combine this with acid blood and that is a nasty screen, probably better than guards in some situations.
It happens to all of us, sometimes something just seems wrong.
Honestly I wasn't sure how to do probability for catachan mutli-dice. I figured that you would end up rolling a 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6, so 3.5+5.5 for 9. But, like you say, with a reroll it could be a 5 and a 2, so the 2 should *statistically* be 3.5. Which is about what I was using with 9. Either way, the numbers are fairly close, and I think both of our results tell the same story.
I did them without kronos because I figured most armies relying heavily on gunfex would be jorm. Exocrines and Tyrannofex put kronos to better use, as they're already going to be sitting still. Like I pointed out with the GS, after 4+, every time you improve your save by 1 increases your durability on the steep end of a curve. Going from 3+ to 2+ is a -really- big deal for durability.
I hadn't thought about spinefist gants for screens. That's an interesting thought, and something I'd like to look more at. You give up the fleshborers which will get you maybe a wound or two on overwatch for increasing the number of attacks per game round by 50% in melee (double in yours, same in opponents, 2+1). Things like this are why I love when people have constructive ideas, I never would have even thought to look at spinefist gants.
Screening spinefist Gaunts have 1.5 attacks per turn once they’re tarpitting, and 0.5 of them are rerolling 1’s when there’s enough left, but horms have 2 attacks that all always reroll 1’s and benefit from toxin sacs, and better mobility to respond to mobile threats, and most importantly as a tarpit can exploit a 6” pile in to envelop a model to stop its unit from falling back
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want spinegaunts to be a thing, having fifty of the things from 3ed
lindsay40k wrote: Screening spinefist Gaunts have 1.5 attacks per turn once they’re tarpitting, and 0.5 of them are rerolling 1’s when there’s enough left, but horms have 2 attacks that all always reroll 1’s and benefit from toxin sacs, and better mobility to respond to mobile threats, and most importantly as a tarpit can exploit a 6” pile in to envelop a model to stop its unit from falling back
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want spinegaunts to be a thing, having fifty of the things from 3ed
I mean, you're not wrong at all, but in the context of a moving gunline, saving 30 pts per 30 man squad adds up. Buy 4 get 5th free! That may sound like a huge points investment, but it gives you the ability to completely block off your side of the board, as well as have 3 30 man squads dedicated solely to screening and being a moving wall while your shooting does damage. The question becomes whether or not 1500 pts of Tyranids shooting/hqs is enough to cripple an enemy army enough that 500 pts of gants can hold them off of objectives.
lindsay40k wrote: Screening spinefist Gaunts have 1.5 attacks per turn once they’re tarpitting, and 0.5 of them are rerolling 1’s when there’s enough left, but horms have 2 attacks that all always reroll 1’s and benefit from toxin sacs, and better mobility to respond to mobile threats, and most importantly as a tarpit can exploit a 6” pile in to envelop a model to stop its unit from falling back
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want spinegaunts to be a thing, having fifty of the things from 3ed
Horms are my love and my reason to play tyranids, but for screening purposes (i.e. waiting for enemy assaults) they are not good. 5 Points each are too much for a T3 6+, they will never get all their attacks in and surrounding an enemy assaulter is making them a favor, they WANT to stay in melee.
Spinegants can do all the shooting even if a single one of them is put in melee.
But hey, you didn't bother doing the math and just thought you could throw out a seemingly impossible situation, and you proved my point.
You are right, a carnifex with coversave and -1 to hit is a tough nut to crack. I forgot that the Heavy venom cannon is not a 'heavy weapon' so the carnifex can be very fast and keep shooting at 3+. But a carnifex with all these upgrades are the same amount of points as a manticore but the basilisk is cheaper. So that's about 50/60 points more carnifex in this scenario. Meanwhile you forgot the heavy bolters.
I do the math when I simply see the weapon stats and thats enough. The rest is all tactics, baby.
If you're not going to actually add anything meaningful to the thread, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to tear down what other people post without providing any meaningful reasoning.
I now that you are in the "tyranid promotion team" and don't like anybody questioning your reasoning, but I also look at different tactics from different angles at a competitive level. So sorry if that means that I am bursting some hyped up tyranid players bubbles. Some might learn from that but the others simply call me a troll. Ah well...
The more i try to look into building a sw army, i like tyranid warriors more and more. 3 wounds and an assault heavy bolter. It is everything long fangs with actual heavy bolters and primaris marines wished they where.
Hey there, i'm making a new army for my GF (Christmas gift) and she plans on getting more stuff afterwards. Can anyone tell me what we should focus on getting first based on what we have?
Hive Tyrant
Flying Hive Tyrant
Brood Lord
Maleceptor
Obviously we got a good bulk, but we're missing a lot of the special heavy supports and elites. So what are your thoughts? This is not for tournament play, so we aren't looking for another 30 genestealers
Niiai wrote: The more i try to look into building a sw army, i like tyranid warriors more and more. 3 wounds and an assault heavy bolter. It is everything long fangs with actual heavy bolters and primaris marines wished they where.
I posted "plays like space wolves" warrior list way back, but if you can find it it might help you decide.
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vaklor4 wrote: Hey there, i'm making a new army for my GF (Christmas gift) and she plans on getting more stuff afterwards. Can anyone tell me what we should focus on getting first based on what we have?
Hive Tyrant
Flying Hive Tyrant
Brood Lord
Maleceptor
Obviously we got a good bulk, but we're missing a lot of the special heavy supports and elites. So what are your thoughts? This is not for tournament play, so we aren't looking for another 30 genestealers
Shooters, Exocrene, Tyrannofex, or Carnifexen....also some hive guard are always welcome.
The big put-down for fexen was for me the loss of the montrous creature melee bonus (ignore armor) and now the loss of S9.
With the need of utilizing them with a melee weapon to be a threat in melee they are merely unattractive for me.
I am looking for a solution to give them a go, because i got some fexen here (19 fexen with different loadouts, 1 OOE, 2 Stonecrushers), not beeing able to use them as i did in 6th...(ok, was nasty back then, i agree. Necessary changes to be fair, but still... )
My biggest problem is full Godzilla not really beeing viable for me actually (bad local meta, much competitice netlisting)
- Full melee fexen dont bring the dmg output to kill hordic stuff/screens (A 4-5, S6. without mcc not even reliable wound tanks), and suffer from the new dmg table, beeing wounded by S4 small arms/melee on 5 instead of 6. Even semi decent cc units evaporate them quickly. And the new fall-back machanic makes it even worse.
- Hybrid fexen can do both, but again, are not durable enough to survive and the shooting dmg is a bit underperforming. Short shooting range beeing a problem too.
- Full gun plattforms again are hindered by their range, and in melee, they got more attacks than most vehicles, but yeah... not going to threat lot of people. Exocrines and hive guard doing a better job in my opinion.
One of the solutions could be equiping a shooty fex with acid maw and DS/Devs, sporecysts (-1 to hit) and jormungandr (cover), ignoring the +1 BS bonus. (115 points per model). Actually i snip off all their arms and magnetize them to make them variable. When done, i will try out ~10 fexen with ooe and neurothropes, taking some raveners/rippers to grab objectives and genestealers to support melee.
@Harpy/Crone:
Spoiler:
I did well with harpy first turn charges on vehicles, tying up heavy weapon teams and such like, IF my opponent lets enough space between his screning units and the good stuff.
Harpies are also very devastating, combined with cc hard hitters like genestealers, making sure the charged unit cant be chosen to fight until every one else has done so.
When charging more than one critical target, its nice to have the option to shut down the opponents counter-offensive stratagem, choosing the combat without harpy first.
Other units can consolidate to the shut-down unit, before it can fight, making more contact (hits/wounds) or surrounding it, so it cant fall back or position better with its consolidation move.
If nothing of this happens, then its harder to make it worth taking, maybe objective grabbing, doing occasional mortal wounds, dropping spore mines in the opponents way and shooting a bit, or cc flyers (not recommended if not near dead vehicle).
Crones are okayish against flyers and vehicles, as infantry as well. Decent all rounder, beeing a bit pricey for its benefits.
Both units suffer from the tranfer to 'Flyer' instead of fast attack, which makes it a bit annoying to choose them. If they would have gotten the option to fly and be hard to hit, or go to ground it would have been better.
The imperative to always move their minimum movement is gone for good, having a range from 0-30" is super cool They both have their uses, but its not as easy to determine their role as it is with genestealers, exocrine or the like. Its situational and you have to think a bit more to use them right.
Edit: Synapse is an issue, when zooming wide forward. But the long movement range can partly compensate it, considering instinctive behaviour.
But what Hive Fleet to choose? I would suggest Jormungandr (cover) if Air Wing detachment, because it has enough movement to not need the advance, and everything else does not benefit to them. If part of any regular detachment, i would take the current hive fleet benefit to have access to psychic powers buffs and synapse. I like them, but didnt field them since codex dropped. Should do that
But what Hive Fleet to choose? I would suggest Jormungandr (cover) if Air Wing detachment, because it has enough movement to not need the advance, and everything else does not benefit to them.
Jormungandr won't help them at all, since the adaptation specifically prohibits models with the Fly keyword from benefiting (makes logical sense, the "cover" bonus is to represent what amounts to trench warfare tactics). I'd probably use Kraken or Gorgon for an air wing detachment personally.
Played guard yesterday. He ran Catachan. That reroll random dice was STRONG. Everytime he did it he ended up with 11, or 12 shots out of 12 except once, where he rolled a 7. He rand 6x 10 man squads of inf, harker, 2 manticores, 2 basisilis, 2 LRBT, some sentinels, 2 astropaths, ratlings snipers.
I went pure melee, except for 30x devilgaunts.
Kraken HF.
Flyrant reaper obliterax, dev brainleech, warlord,
Swarmy
BL 2x 20 GS 30x Hormies with AG 30x Devilgants
Trygon
3x Rippers 3x
3x Spore Mines
He owned me, though in hindsight I probably deployed poorly.
Some observations:
If you place everything on the board, or nearly everything, there is simply to much to shoot at, even
I took Swarmlord without TG or Pod. Walked him across the board, he was basically the last thing to die turn 3. I conceded after that basically only having rippers and some gaunts left.
DS the 30x Devilgaunts wasn't as good as I thuoght. Its better to leave them on the board, walk them up and shoot. I will DSGS with the Trygon from now on.
Hormies are Fast! Especially with Karken. As observed, great for tieing up units. I locked in 4 of his infantry squads and still manage to daisy chain some gaunts to my Malantrhope.
I still like the Malanthrope, was able to get Prey Adaptation early by picking of a sentinel.
180 shots on T7 Devilgaunts (shoot twice strat) did 7 wounds. Probably won't try that again.
My BL, GS, HT, and Devilgaunts all failed 8 and 9" charges turn one. Even with rerolls.
I used kraken opportunitic advance on swarmy to get him to go 21", then failed Catalyst so no charge.
We did the mission which has the night rules wehre its -1 to hit over 18". He went first and killed a unit of GS. We discussed afterward, and think implemting the Night Fight rule to the player who goes first might help mitigate the going first advantage.
Also, I think first blood should be: if you kill a unit first turn (for each player) you get the VP, rather than whoever basically goes first is guarenetteed to get it.
Hey all, I've been thinking about starting a second army, I've been a little disappointed with how the orks are a one trick pony requiring lots of models, and no effective shooting phase if there are negatives to hit on the table. I've always really liked the Nids, but I'm concerned that they are a swarm army as well. Are there multiple ways to play nids effectively? Particularly, are they just as effective if you have fewer, but larger more powerful units?
In principle yes, what we call a "nidzilla" list can work. I suggest leviathan or behemoth and take a good number of devourer fexes (no less than 3 at 2000, better more), or screens will be your doom.
Another option is the "No gribblies" way. Take only monsters and medium sized bugs. Warrios and Tguards are really good this edition and they are bad targets for small calibers, so you don't offer any good targets for bolter class weapon. Leviathan and Behemoth again can work, but also Kraken.
All of these can be completed with a Kronos detachment for ranged firepower if you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Completely different topic, but i think that we are not giving enough consideration to Leviathan in our list building.
Sure, it doesn't have the speed of Kraken, but the 6+++ is better than the Jorm buff in many situations, especially for Tyrants. It also has an incredibly powerful stratagem, +36% damage for 1 cp ON ALL UNITS ATTACKING THAT TARGET is sick! Melee flyrants love this, and i don't think that there are many targets that can survive a flyrant + GS leviacombo. I particularly like Haruspici in Leviathan, they have a lot to gain and are durable enough that adding a 6++ starts becoming a real thing.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Hey all, I've been thinking about starting a second army, I've been a little disappointed with how the orks are a one trick pony requiring lots of models, and no effective shooting phase if there are negatives to hit on the table. I've always really liked the Nids, but I'm concerned that they are a swarm army as well. Are there multiple ways to play nids effectively? Particularly, are they just as effective if you have fewer, but larger more powerful units?
Nids have several good builds. Most of the dex is playable. Go to town!
Spoletta wrote: In principle yes, what we call a "nidzilla" list can work.
I suggest leviathan or behemoth and take a good number of devourer fexes (no less than 3 at 2000, better more), or screens will be your doom.
Another option is the "No gribblies" way. Take only monsters and medium sized bugs. Warrios and Tguards are really good this edition and they are bad targets for small calibers, so you don't offer any good targets for bolter class weapon. Leviathan and Behemoth again can work, but also Kraken.
All of these can be completed with a Kronos detachment for ranged firepower if you want.
Behemoth player with plenty of Nidzilla stuff already. I’ve also got like a hundred Hormagaunts. Seems like Swarmcyte plus various Hormagaunt delivery systems is the best way to use them - tie up some heavy gunners, whilst piling in the Horms in ways that envelop at least one unit so the small arms fire is denied them as a target. I guess T-cytes with Stranglers are a nice delivery option, not sure if my big snake looking things should run as Mawlocs to troll deployment or Trygons to add Transport capacity
Unfortunately my best mate has got dozens of lascannons and keeps adding more
Automatically Appended Next Post: Completely different topic, but i think that we are not giving enough consideration to Leviathan in our list building.
Sure, it doesn't have the speed of Kraken, but the 6+++ is better than the Jorm buff in many situations, especially for Tyrants.
It also has an incredibly powerful stratagem, +36% damage for 1 cp ON ALL UNITS ATTACKING THAT TARGET is sick! Melee flyrants love this, and i don't think that there are many targets that can survive a flyrant + GS leviacombo. I particularly like Haruspici in Leviathan, they have a lot to gain and are durable enough that adding a 6++ starts becoming a real thing.
I for one think Leviathan is better than Jorm. Even more so after the FAQ. I have a tourney next month and will give it a go. I have been doing behemoth and kraken mostly, but playing swarm armies takes way to long to move everything and the amount of dice it impossible to get a game even to turn 3 within 2 hours.
I think leviathan really needs lots of Synapse and Fliers for there stratagem to be effective. I only have 2 flyrants and 10 gargoyles. I will certainly put them in, and probably run a no Gribblies list, except GS, got to have some of those.
I think leviathan really needs lots of Synapse and Fliers for there stratagem to be effective. I only have 2 flyrants and 10 gargoyles. I will certainly put them in, and probably run a no Gribblies list, except GS, got to have some of those.
Doesn't have to be winged creatures. Tyrannocytes, Zoanthropes, Neurothropes, Venomthropes, and Malanthropes are all eligible as triggers for the stratagem.
Thanks for the report Dynas. Don't see the Malanthrope in your list. If he is there, then I'm surprised that the IG list did as well against you as it did. That one model really messes up their day since it makes them BS 5+.
Also, I would definitely recommend shooting the Gants at whatever screening units he has. That way, your Genestealers can Swarmy move into the stuff that matters and kill non-chaff units. Definitely won't be doing 7 unsaved wounds against guardsmen
Finally, I really like Jormungandr to deliver the Devilgants. Bring a unit of Raveners and you can grab a Neurothrope for 139 points and a patrol detachment (or do 179 points for an extra CP with 2 mucolids and an outrider). Way more efficient than a Trygon once they come in IMO, and of course the Neurothrope does Neurothrope things for pretty much the whole game.
I think leviathan really needs lots of Synapse and Fliers for there stratagem to be effective. I only have 2 flyrants and 10 gargoyles. I will certainly put them in, and probably run a no Gribblies list, except GS, got to have some of those.
Doesn't have to be winged creatures. Tyrannocytes, Zoanthropes, Neurothropes, Venomthropes, and Malanthropes are all eligible as triggers for the stratagem.
Are we talking about the War on All Frounts Stratagem? I thought it had to be both a Flier and Non Flier both in melee with the same unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: Thanks for the report Dynas. Don't see the Malanthrope in your list. If he is there, then I'm surprised that the IG list did as well against you as it did. That one model really messes up their day since it makes them BS 5+.
Also, I would definitely recommend shooting the Gants at whatever screening units he has. That way, your Genestealers can Swarmy move into the stuff that matters and kill non-chaff units. Definitely won't be doing 7 unsaved wounds against guardsmen
Finally, I really like Jormungandr to deliver the Devilgants. Bring a unit of Raveners and you can grab a Neurothrope for 139 points and a patrol detachment (or do 179 points for an extra CP with 2 mucolids and an outrider). Way more efficient than a Trygon once they come in IMO, and of course the Neurothrope does Neurothrope things for pretty much the whole game.
yeah I had a malanthrope, but he only had a 6" bubble, he shot the other stuff, as the Malanthrope was protecting swarmy and the Hormies and GS at turn 1 but he blasted those guys away even with the minus.
The devliery of the devilgants wasnt the problem. I man they have 18" guns so they are gonna be in range after I move them. Much better to get GS within 9". BUt yeah, shooting the tanks probably didn't help.
Yeah, I've thinking that Hive Fleet should be chosen for a specific purpose, Jormongandr lets Big Bugs tank Alphas with that awesome 2+ save, and is absolutely nessisary if you want multiples in a Tunnel. Leviathan Warrior swarms can be Fearsome, and I do think its been overlooked.
Here's my latest effort to make a playable Hydra List....
Hail Hydra! #2
HQ: Tervigon, WL: Regen, Relic Ymgarl, standard loadout
HQ: Tervigon, standard around 243 points
HQ: Neuro
Heavy: Gunfex, HVC, Deathspitters, Spores, Enhances senses
Heavy: as above
Heavy: as above
Reserve 120 points for Hydra Strat
Honestly I think Hydra can only play as PL....if so you can add a Gunfex, or upgrade to a Tyranno-Gun
Brigade......+9 CP Battle forged +3 Total CP= 12
This about as "Hordey" as you can get , drown the foe in bodies, then bring whole units back for more! I've modified this list yet again, and it's posted in army lists.
Dynas wrote:Are we talking about the War on All Frounts Stratagem? I thought it had to be both a Flier and Non Flier both in melee with the same unit?
Yes. It just requires there be one unit that can Fly (i.e. has the Fly keyword) and another that cannot (i.e. doesn't have the Fly keyword). Tyrannocytes especially strike me as good enablers since they will usually be not far from conflict due to their role of delivering units and they are low enough threat to stick around. The various 'thropes also work, though being support oriented are harder to get in range to be useful.
pinecone77 wrote: Here's my latest effort to make a playable Hydra List....
I think if you are going with Hydra you probably are better off forgoing monstrous creatures entirely in favor of various infantry units instead, both to take maximum advantage of the adaptation and to provide maximum threat overload. Most of the 'thropes already encourage large units with their special rules so they fit in nicely with Hydra and both Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard are capable of fulfilling the armor cracking roles that would normally be covered by monstrous creatures.
Dynas wrote:Are we talking about the War on All Frounts Stratagem? I thought it had to be both a Flier and Non Flier both in melee with the same unit?
Yes. It just requires there be one unit that can Fly (i.e. has the Fly keyword) and another that cannot (i.e. doesn't have the Fly keyword). Tyrannocytes especially strike me as good enablers since they will usually be not far from conflict due to their role of delivering units and they are low enough threat to stick around. The various 'thropes also work, though being support oriented are harder to get in range to be useful.
pinecone77 wrote:
Here's my latest effort to make a playable Hydra List....
I think if you are going with Hydra you probably are better off forgoing monstrous creatures entirely in favor of various infantry units instead, both to take maximum advantage of the adaptation and to provide maximum threat overload. Most of the 'thropes already encourage large units with their special rules so they fit in nicely with Hydra and both Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard are capable of fulfilling the armor cracking roles that would normally be covered by monstrous creatures.
Ah i overlooked that. I double checked and thought it was FLIER rather than FLY. That does make it better. THought I think I would likely only use it with Gargoyles and Flyrant, harpies, crones. Not sure if I would want to risk the neuros or venoms.... THe tyrannocyte is an an interesting choice.... Didn't even think of charging those.
Small update to the quick reference sheets. I didn't have the extended/degrading stat lines in for the Exocrine before. Fixed now. Im going to be doing a final print of my small format version today and laminating it. Il take some pictures and show off the final product tonight.
Lance845 wrote: Small update to the quick reference sheets. I didn't have the extended/degrading stat lines in for the Exocrine before. Fixed now. Im going to be doing a final print of my small format version today and laminating it. Il take some pictures and show off the final product tonight.
Yeah i already laminated mine, with the old degrading, but as long as I know, to look up that guy. . : ) its very helpful.
Lance845 wrote: Small update to the quick reference sheets. I didn't have the extended/degrading stat lines in for the Exocrine before. Fixed now. Im going to be doing a final print of my small format version today and laminating it. Il take some pictures and show off the final product tonight.
Yeah i already laminated mine, with the old degrading, but as long as I know, to look up that guy. . : ) its very helpful.
Nice.
I mean the nice thing about this is even if you don't have a printer going to an office supply store and having it printed/laminated costs... $3.00? Dirt cheap as far as gaming materials go.
I read something about the designers realizing nid MC were not surviving as intended and may be gaining some extra wounds down the line. It will be easy enough to update the sheet and reprint for cheap.
Any help would be much appreciated. (Im trying not to waste money on units I wont use)
C
Neurothropes are rock solid psykers.
Hive tyrants can be great, but best bring in 2+ quantities.
I would check the OP about how good Hormagaunt 6" pile in is. It's interesting and enlightening in maximizing your charge/fight phase. Even if you don't use Hormagaunts.
Spoletta wrote: In principle yes, what we call a "nidzilla" list can work.
I suggest leviathan or behemoth and take a good number of devourer fexes (no less than 3 at 2000, better more), or screens will be your doom.
Another option is the "No gribblies" way. Take only monsters and medium sized bugs. Warrios and Tguards are really good this edition and they are bad targets for small calibers, so you don't offer any good targets for bolter class weapon. Leviathan and Behemoth again can work, but also Kraken.
All of these can be completed with a Kronos detachment for ranged firepower if you want.
Behemoth player with plenty of Nidzilla stuff already. I’ve also got like a hundred Hormagaunts. Seems like Swarmcyte plus various Hormagaunt delivery systems is the best way to use them - tie up some heavy gunners, whilst piling in the Horms in ways that envelop at least one unit so the small arms fire is denied them as a target. I guess T-cytes with Stranglers are a nice delivery option, not sure if my big snake looking things should run as Mawlocs to troll deployment or Trygons to add Transport capacity
Unfortunately my best mate has got dozens of lascannons and keeps adding more
Trygon is the best unit in the codex really. You make him work by saturation. My standard list uses 2 flying hives and ether a 9 man warrior with BS and 3x VC and 6x DS or a 30 man dakka gants - perfect double shoot stratagem use ether way. Insane alpha strike. He hits like a truck too when you get him in there. So the trygon is a threat but 2 Hives and 9 warriors with catalyst also present a huge threat total - and 20 geens charging with kraken (what I play) is capable of a charge turn 1 too if you get luck with advance rolls of a 5 or 6. ususally they shoot the Trygon but it's because they have to - the trygon hits way harder than a Hive tyrant. I want the Tyrants around later in the game anyways because turn 2 they can pretty much charge anything. Trygon makes moves like that possible. Nether warriors or dakka gants would be playable without the trygon. The Tcyte is just too expensive for what it does. Really the only reason I ever take one is to bring the Swarmlord and still then I am using a trygon to deploy 20 geenstealers in that set up. It's just too bad it has bs5+, at 4+ it might be worth it.
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NackaNid wrote: What is your thoughts on the Toxicrene? I really like the re-roll to wound but is he a competitive option? Pretty cheap for under 160 pts.
I think he's pretty much terrible. A foot tyrant is way better than him and costs about the same and plays about the same way too. He's also heavy support - I'd rather take Carnifex/Tfex/Exocrine there. If you want a big close combat monster trygons are really the best for that because they deep strike. I've been tying around with the haurospex and find him to be decent - I think he performs better than the toxicrine. I've never used a Toxicrine. If you havn't used it yet - I think a malceptor I think would be more usable - it's actually our best psyker with that +1 to cast so can use him to cast catalyst which seems to be the hardest to get off - he also does d6 smite on a roll of a 10.
I have been doing the math and it appears that the Rupture Tyrannofex is better versus Toughness 8, 3+ chassis than the Exocrine. I am wondering why more people are not taking it?
It seems that the points per wound are the following:
Rupture Tyrannofex with Stinger Salvo
6 shots hitting on 4's = 3 hits, 2 wound. Times .833 get by the save times 3.5 (for d6 wounds) = 5.83 from the main gun
8 shots from Stinger salvo = 4 hit, 1.33 wound time .5 get by the save = .66 from the second gun
Total cost per wound is 40.82 if you only count the main gun or 36.67 if you count the second gun. That is some good bang for the points! Great range on the main gun too
Exocrine = 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 wound, 2.21 get by the save, causing 4.44 wounds. That is 48.65 points per wound.
Seems like taking one unit of 6 Hive guard (54 points per 1 point of damage), and double shooting with the stategem (27 points per wound), and the Rupturefex would be best ranged antitank options.
For T8 its the best. They tend to get focused because they are expensive and pretty easy to kill with las cannons. Mine always gets targeted first :(. Maybe if you take 3 of them - they could be one of our best units.
Has anyone had success running a horde Nid list in a competitive setting? I have no trouble staying under time as horde infantry guard, but every time I try running a gaunts/stealer heavy nid list, the games take forever and I would never get past turn two/three in a 2.5 hour round.
You can't really make the charge/fight phase go fast with needing to be really careful when making your charge moves and pile ins in order to legally tie up as many units as possible. Not to mention losing time to trying to line up stealers/hormies so they can actually fight in two ranks. God help you if the gargoyles need to get stuck in somewhere and you have to get those fiddly bastards into position.
So does anyone have any tricks for playing melee horde nids faster? I already have all my small bugs on a magna rack for easy deployment/packup and have pretty good dice management from playing Guard.
Masutaman wrote: I have been doing the math and it appears that the Rupture Tyrannofex is better versus Toughness 8, 3+ chassis than the Exocrine. I am wondering why more people are not taking it?
It seems that the points per wound are the following:
Rupture Tyrannofex with Stinger Salvo
6 shots hitting on 4's = 3 hits, 2 wound. Times .833 get by the save times 3.5 (for d6 wounds) = 5.83 from the main gun
8 shots from Stinger salvo = 4 hit, 1.33 wound time .5 get by the save = .66 from the second gun
Total cost per wound is 40.82 if you only count the main gun or 36.67 if you count the second gun. That is some good bang for the points! Great range on the main gun too
Exocrine = 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 wound, 2.21 get by the save, causing 4.44 wounds. That is 48.65 points per wound.
Seems like taking one unit of 6 Hive guard (54 points per 1 point of damage), and double shooting with the stategem (27 points per wound), and the Rupturefex would be best ranged antitank options.
Wanted to know your thoughts?
Thanks!
Because it's ONLY better vs T8. T7 and below the Exocrine outshines the rupturfex point for point and most people don't field much or anything T8. How often do you see Landraiders instead of rhinos? The vast majority of vehicles are T6-7 and those are all the most point efficient options. Yes, the Tfex would be slightly better vs that One land raider. But If it's a choice between bringing something more efficient vs the one land raider or something more efficient against the 3 rhinos then which one is actually more efficient on the table in terms of practicality?
The Exocrine wins out every time.
Beyond that it's personal preference. My Exocrine Kit bash is my pride and joy. I have 2 of them and I try to use them whenever I get an excuse.
Masutaman wrote: I have been doing the math and it appears that the Rupture Tyrannofex is better versus Toughness 8, 3+ chassis than the Exocrine. I am wondering why more people are not taking it?
It seems that the points per wound are the following:
Rupture Tyrannofex with Stinger Salvo
6 shots hitting on 4's = 3 hits, 2 wound. Times .833 get by the save times 3.5 (for d6 wounds) = 5.83 from the main gun
8 shots from Stinger salvo = 4 hit, 1.33 wound time .5 get by the save = .66 from the second gun
Total cost per wound is 40.82 if you only count the main gun or 36.67 if you count the second gun. That is some good bang for the points! Great range on the main gun too
Exocrine = 12 shots, 8 hit, 2.66 wound, 2.21 get by the save, causing 4.44 wounds. That is 48.65 points per wound.
Seems like taking one unit of 6 Hive guard (54 points per 1 point of damage), and double shooting with the stategem (27 points per wound), and the Rupturefex would be best ranged antitank options.
Wanted to know your thoughts?
Thanks!
Because it's ONLY better vs T8. T7 and below the Exocrine outshines the rupturfex point for point and most people don't field much or anything T8. How often do you see Landraiders instead of rhinos? The vast majority of vehicles are T6-7 and those are all the most point efficient options. Yes, the Tfex would be slightly better vs that One land raider. But If it's a choice between bringing something more efficient vs the one land raider or something more efficient against the 3 rhinos then which one is actually more efficient on the table in terms of practicality?
The Exocrine wins out every time.
Beyond that it's personal preference. My Exocrine Kit bash is my pride and joy. I have 2 of them and I try to use them whenever I get an excuse.
Leman Russes, Knights, Baneblades, Mortarion, Land Raiders, Leviathan Dreadnoughts (Chaos AND Loyalist flavored), Necron Pylons... Having something to deal with Leman Russes alone should bring Tyrannofexes into consideration.
I didn't say it wasn't something to consider. But when people scream OP about Guard it hasn't been the Leman Russ, it's been infantry and Scions. Again, how many of these things do you generally see in your local meta on a day to day basis? How many MORE T6-7 vehicles do you see? The Exocrine isn't severely out performed by the Tfex and the moment something has 1 less toughness the exocrine is outperforming the Tfex.
If in your local meta every day you see land raider and Leman Russ spam then by all means. Take the Tfex. Clearly you could use it. But I think that local meta is a rarity.
NackaNid wrote: What is your thoughts on the Toxicrene? I really like the re-roll to wound but is he a competitive option? Pretty cheap for under 160 pts.
I used him several times now.
Like some other stuff too, very situational.
I will compare him to the trygon, because of cost and combat abilities
He has got one more T than the Trygon for example, which does not help much against most things (S3-S5, S8+).
On paper he got same attacks and strength as trygon, but degrading with damage, which the trygon does not.
What helps him in cc is fighting almost first, the reroll to wound on everything and the possibility to shoot d6 times in addition. Acid blood and hypertoxic miasma (beeing based per model, not per unit!) is not that bad either, doing additional mortal wounds. This alone mostly makes for beeing attacked by less valueable units or with the biggest hammer the enemy got in his shelf.
What bothers me most with this model is the footprint on the table. You cant hide it ANYWHERE because of his big tentacles, and you cant position him well, because of the same reason. I magnetized mine, so i can remove the tentacles, but .. i had big discussions about it with some opponents, saying i cant remove them to place the model between ruins, because normaly it wouldnt fit between them and so would not be able to cross a line of buildings for example... stupid, but i can see their point.
I would not base a list on them, but for me they add nicely in most melee list. (not highly competitive).
Xenomancers wrote: [...] I've never used a Toxicrine. If you havn't used it yet - I think a malceptor I think would be more usable - it's actually our best psyker with that +1 to cast so can use him to cast catalyst which seems to be the hardest to get off - he also does d6 smite on a roll of a 10.
I have to disagree complimentary on the beeing our best psyker part. The neurothrope is our best psyker, not having the +1, but rerolling 1s on psychic tests, beeing a character and having 3++.
Used the maleceptor now four times now or so.
In cc he is not that great. His threat is minimum with his A3, S7, hitting on 4+. Having a 4++ helps, but decent melee units slaughter him fast, with T7 beeing the same issue like toxicrene. He can tie up some stuff with his W12, but he needs help there to get it killed. My opponents often ignored him completely, because... what could happen if he lives? Other stuff is more dangerous. Tie him up with crap unit, surround him, done...
His biggest plus is beeing able to cast smite and something else, OR doing his overload abilty, which is no psychic power and cant be denied!
But for 172 points i can closely get a winged hive tyrant for example, who lacks the overload, but can shoot and/or melee harder with great mobility.
astro_nomicon wrote: Finally got my first game in with the new dex and it was thoroughly satisfying.[...]
Gratulations to your win. With this matchup i would not have expected anything else, to be honest. For aggressive commander spam its a big mismatch, not beeing able to clean the hordic amount of genesteales etc. I am curious about the battle report., and thanks for it in advance.
The mission is basically 4 objectives, 1 in each table quarter. 1 per side is a primary objective worth 2 pts each turn to the others 1. He took reaper, old school, and big game hunter as secondaries. I took recon, death from 1000 cuts, and. . . Something.
He deployed drone blobs, Fireblade, Y'Vahra, FW commander, fire warriors, and pathfinders. I deployed Malanthrope, Neurothrope, Kraken stealers, Hormagaunts, and Hive Guard. I got first turn. He elected to use the pathfinders scout move to further push out my deepstrikers.
Tyranids turn 1:
His deployment effectively blocked me out from getting to his drones (60 shots per unit!) with my reserves so I elect to hold them back for a turn. Both stealer units move and advance toward the pathfinders. Double advance on one unit so they can easily engage a unit of Firewarriors as well. Malanthrope pops metabolic overdrive to keep pace with both stealer units and provide his aura for the retaliation. Hive Guard open up on the other unit of Firewarriors screening his drones, FW commander w/ drone controller, and Fireblade. They do 7 wounds but he passes 5 of those on 5+ to leave 3. I really want them gone so my Jormungandr reserves can come in next turn and do their thing so I pop double fire strat to finish them off. Catalyst from the Neuro fails on the double advancing unit of stealers. Both stealer units make their charges and kill the pathfinders and other Firewarriors.
Tau turn 1:
4 CIB commanders and their shield drones drop behind my lines to take out Hive Guard (1 survives his shooting phase). Cold Star commander takes off and lights up Hormagaunts. (4 survive by the end of the turn) Drones move forward to address stealers. Y'Vahra hops into reserves to await tyrants. The drones unload and delete all but 1 stealer from one unit and the other unit is left with 8 (bless you Malanthrope).
Tyranids turn 2:
I drop the Devilgants, stealers, and Raveners on one flank of his drones and support. Kraken Flyrant drops near Malanthrope for -2 to hit, and Jorm Flyrant drops on opposite side of his drones. Flyrants and double shooting gants take out all but 1 drone. Jorm Flyrant smites FW commander for 2 wounds. Kraken Flyrant casts catalyst on himself and casts horror on coldstar commander. Surviving hormas and hive guard each claim an objective on my back lines. Reinforcements claim the other two. Surviving 8 stealers assault Fireblade and FW Commander. They kill the commander and remain locked in combat with Fireblade.
Tau turn 2:
Both Fusion Commanders arrive and summarily nuke Jorm Flyrant. Y'Vahra comes back to party and does a few wounds to Kraken Flyrant thanks to catalyst and- 2 to hit. CIB commanders finish off the lone hive guard as they are monstrously out of position to influence the game at this point. Coldstar finishes Hormagaunts. Fireblade dies in combat with stealers.
We call it at this point as I have thoroughly outscored him on primaries and secondaries at this point and with out the drones he simply does not have the volume of fire necessary to keep me from just sitting on objectives and winning, not to mention his gaff of over investing in killing my hive guard with the CIB commanders and putting them out of place.
Big ol victory for Nids. Can't wait to get some more games with them. The double advance, and double fire stratagems are so clutch. My only beef with my list is trying to deploy 50 models within 3" of 4 Raveners. It's doable, but a total PITA, and slightly limiting in terms of placement.
NackaNid wrote: What is your thoughts on the Toxicrene? I really like the re-roll to wound but is he a competitive option? Pretty cheap for under 160 pts.
I used him several times now.
Like some other stuff too, very situational.
I will compare him to the trygon, because of cost and combat abilities
He has got one more T than the Trygon for example, which does not help much against most things (S3-S5, S8+).
On paper he got same attacks and strength as trygon, but degrading with damage, which the trygon does not.
What helps him in cc is fighting almost first, the reroll to wound on everything and the possibility to shoot d6 times in addition. Acid blood and hypertoxic miasma (beeing based per model, not per unit!) is not that bad either, doing additional mortal wounds. This alone mostly makes for beeing attacked by less valueable units or with the biggest hammer the enemy got in his shelf.
What bothers me most with this model is the footprint on the table. You cant hide it ANYWHERE because of his big tentacles, and you cant position him well, because of the same reason. I magnetized mine, so i can remove the tentacles, but .. i had big discussions about it with some opponents, saying i cant remove them to place the model between ruins, because normaly it wouldnt fit between them and so would not be able to cross a line of buildings for example... stupid, but i can see their point.
I would not base a list on them, but for me they add nicely in most melee list. (not highly competitive).
Xenomancers wrote: [...] I've never used a Toxicrine. If you havn't used it yet - I think a malceptor I think would be more usable - it's actually our best psyker with that +1 to cast so can use him to cast catalyst which seems to be the hardest to get off - he also does d6 smite on a roll of a 10.
I have to disagree complimentary on the beeing our best psyker part. The neurothrope is our best psyker, not having the +1, but rerolling 1s on psychic tests, beeing a character and having 3++.
Used the maleceptor now four times now or so.
In cc he is not that great. His threat is minimum with his A3, S7, hitting on 4+. Having a 4++ helps, but decent melee units slaughter him fast, with T7 beeing the same issue like toxicrene. He can tie up some stuff with his W12, but he needs help there to get it killed. My opponents often ignored him completely, because... what could happen if he lives? Other stuff is more dangerous. Tie him up with crap unit, surround him, done...
His biggest plus is beeing able to cast smite and something else, OR doing his overload abilty, which is no psychic power and cant be denied!
But for 172 points i can closely get a winged hive tyrant for example, who lacks the overload, but can shoot and/or melee harder with great mobility.
Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.
I value the T7 a lot, it helps against assault cannons, auto cannons, TMC melee, Deathspitters, Devourers. relic blades... S6 and S7 are definitely common, after all the Tyrants became competitive when they got the triple buff 4++, T7 and +2W. Sure, it was much more impactful when the assault cannon spam was all the rage, now that the meta is plasma/melta heavy it's T8 that shines.
Right now i have a Venom kit and i don't know if i should assemble it as Venom or as Maleceptor. I really like both models, but i can see much more use from the Maleceptor, throwing it turn 1 into the enemy zone and starting to cast makes for a big distraction and a huge DtW problem for him.
Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.
It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.
Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.
It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.
I looked through the data I got, meaning FAQs until now and designers commentary.
Line of sight is neither a theme there, nor is it in the BRB. I just wondered, because the last editions such comments where always implemented, like "arms, weapons, wings, banners are not part of the model for targeting/line of sight purposes". Would be cool if i would have overlooked, and please tell me if so.
The line of sight thematic combined with the new cover rules give me a hard go sometimes.
Edit, regarding vehicles from designers commentary:
Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the
case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of
the model? A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of
the model. It does not include things such as turrets,
sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is
still doubt, we recommend both players agree about
what constitutes the hull of such models before the
battle begins.
Tentacles, antennas and stuff like that don't work for LOS (yes, the "Shoot from antenna Land Raider" meme, is baseless). I'm quite sure there was a design commentary on this point.
It needs to be in a FAQ or errata to be a rule change and it currently is not. Tentacles, antennas, wings, and all the other nonsense and bits all count for LOS by RAW. I and my regular play group don't play it that way. But that is what it is according to the rules.
I looked through the data I got, meaning FAQs until now and designers commentary. Line of sight is neither a theme there, nor is it in the BRB. I just wondered, because the last editions such comments where always implemented, like "arms, weapons, wings, banners are not part of the model for targeting/line of sight purposes". Would be cool if i would have overlooked, and please tell me if so. The line of sight thematic combined with the new cover rules give me a hard go sometimes.
Edit, regarding vehicles from designers commentary: Q: When a model does not have a base, as is the case with many vehicles, what exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model? A: The hull of these models refers to the main body of the model. It does not include things such as turrets, sponsons, aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still doubt, we recommend both players agree about what constitutes the hull of such models before the battle begins.
You didn't miss anything. In 8th you have LoS if you can draw a strait unobstructed line from any part of your model to any part of their model.
The FAQ question concerns where you start and end measurements when no base is included. It's got nothing to do with LoS.
So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...
Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play
Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?
Yeah but the Exocrine looks a lot better on paper than it really is. It's range is 36" which is not enough range to never need to move and it essentially can't move because it loses 2/3's or more of it's firepower if it does. It's very easy for your opponent to deploy it's major units out of it's range. Or at least make you deploy the exocrine out in the open.
48" range gives you way more flexibility in deployment. You can deploy out of site for example if it doesn't look like you are going first. Just things to consider.
Spoletta wrote: Hmm yes, they should be a bit more clear there. Right now we have a way to discern distance between models and another one for LoS.
I think this is well covered in the rules. You measure line of sight from any part of the model, to any part of another model. Distance you measure from base to base.
pinecone77 wrote: So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...
Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play
Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?
Hydra is a good fleet. Re-rolling genestealers is nothing to joke about.
Spoletta wrote: Hmm yes, they should be a bit more clear there. Right now we have a way to discern distance between models and another one for LoS.
I think this is well covered in the rules. You measure line of sight from any part of the model, to any part of another model. Distance you measure from base to base.
pinecone77 wrote: So, here is my breakdown of the Hive Fleets so far...
Krakon: Speed rush, meta changing
Behemoth: Deep striking
Jormondgandr: Gunline, and tunnel assault
Kronos: Gunline, anti psycher meta changer
Leviathan: Combined arms strat, Warriors, and general durability
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play
Has anyone tried out Leviathan? I know a few of us have them painted, how have they been performing?
Hydra is a good fleet. Re-rolling genestealers is nothing to joke about.
Are they? I can't seem to make them work ( as of yet) Gorgon is the same, the other Fleets, I look at them, and know how to play them. Those two, not so much.
Gorgon is just bad. The faction bonus is not very good. Gorgons only redeeming faction would be in a 10 point game where you slam on the relic and warlord trait that gives a model more T as well as reducing damage. That warlord would be very powerfull as you heal it with CP. As the point scale up it will die on one turn of shooting.
Hydra is good. Just grab 60 stealers in units of 20. Vs most things in the game they will now re-roll to hit. That is powerfull. It is not universaly good, but genestealers benefit hugly from that.
Kraken - fall back from combat and extra mobility is OP Kronos - psychic defense + efficient shooting is amazing
Upper Tier
Jormungandr - alternative deployment and +1 armor is great
Behemoth - re-rolling charges is nice but outshone by Kraken
Lower Tier
Hydra - extra efficiency is good but you have to get there first
Leviathan - extra durability is better but situationally not as good as Jormungandr and no extra deployment options
Gorgon - ok for fun matchups or if you like the lore, but not as beneficial as Hydra and mobility is flat out better. Kraken, Jormungandr and Behemoth actually get you there in the first place. You don’t get to re-roll any 1’s if you die first.
Personally, I think I’d rather have a universal 6+ FNP than re-rolling hits in combat for a few units. You’re increasing the efficiency of a Genestealer unit by 17 extra hits. Sounds awesome until you remember that their normal damage output is usually overkill for many of the units they’ll encounter.
Re-rolls are king. If you overkill stuff, now you can more confidentaly multi charge even more units. It is a one trick pony though. Kraken is probably even better on stealers because you are that much faster, mostly garantee a charge on the 2nd turn.
Whats everyone opinion on the tail weapons for the carnifex? is bone mace the better choice over the thresher? Is this the best place to spend points if you have a few points left over when making a list?
Also what about the acid maw weapon for the carnifex with 4x dev? You give up 3+ to hit but you gain 4 attacks with ap-5 and d3 damage. Kind of makes you a versatile little beast - and if you are kraken you can fall back and charge?
wyomingfox wrote: It was mentioned that the recent Codex Lictor was nerfed. How so?
Can't be used to taxi geensteelers = worthless. It basically is a unit that serves no purpose now
I still use Lictors, for 45 points they have a good statline, inbuilt deepstrike with reroll charge and in cover they are a pain to remove.
They hunt heavy weapon teams and put Manticores and the like in combat. I think you should always have 1 or 2 if you are not already deep strike heavy. Just those 45/90 points forces your opponent to tightly screen many more objectives than what a trygon taxi would do. The drawback is that they quickly increase your deployments.
I am considering to start a Tyranid army (Behemoth). Can somebody tell me if it is possible to place 9 Tyranid Warriors/30 Hormagaunts within 3" of a Trygon without blocking its assault line?
I think I'd put Jormungandr as "Beta Strike" specialist more than gunline or tunnels specifically. The cover bonus helps weather the first turn firestorm while their ability to deploy any infantry unit in the tunnel networks allows them to hold their heavy hitters in reserve where they can't be gunned off the table or tied up in a first turn charge.
Hydra: Is a Hive Fleet. Currently only good for "PL" play
I'm actually starting to wonder about their Stratagem, having gotten a chance to use it without reinforcement points last week in a PL game. I only used it once, but it won the game by dropping a 30-strong Termagant blob on the opponent's backfield in range to contest their home objective. Purely theoretical, but it could perhaps be used as a mock outflank stratagem that allows you to use the outflanking unit while it is on the table and then redeploy it when destroyed. Using it in such a way would require a full out swarm list though to provide enough durability to make up for the points set aside to power the stratagem but it might be fun to try.
I'm considering trying such a list this upcoming game night with the following mess:
Currently sits at 1880, so 120 points left over to spend on respawns and 240 bodies starting on the table to soak firepower. Malanthrope would probably be the Warlord and babysit the shooting bugs (hopefully hiding out of sight) while the Neurothropes drive the swarm onwards. Comically enough, the extra units being off table until respawned actually might be useful without any gimmicks in mind, as I doubt I'll have enough table space to fit much more.
This could be fun... Might tinker with the points a bit to see if I can free up a few more for the respawn pool to provide more options.
Scallywag wrote: I am considering to start a Tyranid army (Behemoth). Can somebody tell me if it is possible to place 9 Tyranid Warriors/30 Hormagaunts within 3" of a Trygon without blocking its assault line?
Nine Warriors should be doable but 30 Hormagaunts will probably require completely surrounding the Trygon to place.
Scallywag wrote: I am considering to start a Tyranid army (Behemoth). Can somebody tell me if it is possible to place 9 Tyranid Warriors/30 Hormagaunts within 3" of a Trygon without blocking its assault line?
Both are doable. Hormagants are nice because they really need that pile-in to get the most out of the fact that so many of them are far behind the Trygon.
Just a bit of friendly advice - something I noticed in my local meta is that Trygons are tough to utilize fully because my opponents learned how to bring screening units (bubble wrap). If all your Trygon does is charges and helps the hormagants to kill some more scouts....probably not making his points back. Of course, the utility of giving hormagants or the like a turn 1 charge is nice.
But if I was looking to get a turn 1 charge, I would use Gargoyles. They have native deep strike for only 1 more point per model, and those hormagants aren't likely to kill a whole ton themselves.
I also have used Trygons to transport Genestealers, and man those guys are blenders!
For my deep strike needs, I've enjoyed using Jormungandr. Grab a squad of 5-6 Raveners, dedicate some CP, and enjoy your WHOLE ARMY (well half of it) coming of of nowhere! Not as likely to make the turn 1 charge, but I really underestimated that +1 armor save. So amazing.
I'm actually starting to wonder about their Stratagem, having gotten a chance to use it without reinforcement points last week in a PL game. I only used it once, but it won the game by dropping a 30-strong Termagant blob on the opponent's backfield in range to contest their home objective.
In the alpha strike meta, dropping down a 30 man unit on turn 3/4/5 is actually a really big deal. There are a LOT less amazing things that you could do with 120 points.
Remember that this works with 30 Termagants, 24 Hormagants or 20 Gargoyles. Gives you flexibility because the unit gets to outflank the unit when it deploys the second time, which is perfect for late game objective grabs if you place them properly pre-game.
It's not like regular reserves where this needs to happen on turn 3, so if you go second, that's extra huge. Tbh, I'm not sure if I'd do it on Termagants, but Horms and Gargoyles are literally doomed to die by turn 2 or 3. That's their job, and if they don't....well that's even more amazing. In the ITC format, where you're probably trying to take small squads of 19 or less, that's 114 points for Gargoyles or 95 points for hormagants. I would probably choose which one I wanted to do and incorporate it into my list points.
The Termagants and Gargoyles give me really good board control and all the important units can deep strike.
The concept relys on the combination of the Behemoth Adaptation and Adrenal glands. That's why I prefer Tyranid Warriors over Genestealers. They have a ~18% higher chance to get into close combat and can at least always shoot.
Hormagaunts are cool, but without the second Warrior unit the list lacks some punch and I can't afford a third Trygon. I would also like to increase the Gargoyles to 30 models to make better use of the Behemoth Stratagem...
It's quite a good start, but I am not entirely happy yet. I could replace 3 units of Termagants with Biovores, but the models are really expensive and I don't want to spend 100€ on 1/20 of my army.
I would definitely drop some of the chaff Termagants units to invest in Biovores or Hive Guard to give your list a little more shooty presence. Also, Biovores can be converted from HG to be easier on the wallet.
Dropping a Hive Tyrant for a Neurothrope and the 3 smallest squads of termagants would give you 5 Hive Guard. Finding 40ish more points would give you a 6th.
Right now, your list has nothing to take advantage of single-minded annihilation, which is one of our strongest stratagems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, swapping out 2 Trygons for 1 big ravener squad should give you the points you need to get an entire mess of Biovores. You'd need a Jormungdr Battalion though, and not everyone is a huge fan of mixed hive fleets.
jifel wrote: I would definitely drop some of the chaff Termagants units to invest in Biovores or Hive Guard to give your list a little more shooty presence. Also, Biovores can be converted from HG to be easier on the wallet.
I agree on dropping some Termagants. ~60 + the Gargoyles should be enough. I don't think that I need more shooting, though. The list focuses on melee and already has enough shooting to clear chaff. I am even considering to replace one unit of Warriors with 20 Genestealers to save some more money, since they are already included in the Start Collecting box. It also gives my army some more variety.
luke1705 wrote: Dropping a Hive Tyrant for a Neurothrope and the 3 smallest squads of termagants would give you 5 Hive Guard. Finding 40ish more points would give you a 6th.
Right now, your list has nothing to take advantage of single-minded annihilation, which is one of our strongest stratagems.
Also, swapping out 2 Trygons for 1 big ravener squad should give you the points you need to get an entire mess of Biovores. You'd need a Jormungdr Battalion though, and not everyone is a huge fan of mixed hive fleets.
I really want to keep the 3 Hive Tyrants. They are one of the main reasons why I want to start Tyranids.
The Warriors will use the Single-minded Annihilation Stratagem. This gives them 27 additional Deathspitter shots, which is not bad at all.
Hive Guard is cool, but in my opinion they are not optimal/needed in a Behemoth list and I don't want to mix Hive Fleets.
I used tyrannofex gun arms with legs and heads glued on for my biovores. Big stationary grubs firing balloons out of their bug butts. I think the eBay bits sites caught on and raised their prices after I bought all their previous stock though.
I really want to keep the 3 Hive Tyrants. They are one of the main reasons why I want to start Tyranids.
The Warriors will use the Single-minded Annihilation Stratagem. This gives them 27 additional Deathspitter shots, which is not bad at all.
Hive Guard is cool, but in my opinion they are not optimal/needed in a Behemoth list and I don't want to mix Hive Fleets.
Valid. IMO it's a little sub-optimal to have warriors shoot twice, but it is a lot of shots. I also think that Hive Guard are still good in Behemoth, but I do respect you not wanting to mix hive fleets.
And hey, keeping a unit because you think they're cool is always a good reason to field a unit. For what it's worth, a flyrant as you've loaded it out is definitely a good unit. They might not be the best possible use of 200ish points, but they're certainly far from awful.
Would definitely be interested in hearing more about how your warriors fare once you get them rocking. I have a feeling that they're under appreciated for what they bring to the table (myself included)
Tbh, I'm not sure if I'd do it on Termagants, but Horms and Gargoyles are literally doomed to die by turn 2 or 3. That's their job, and if they don't....well that's even more amazing.
In the initial game with Hydra my list was originally intended as a Kronos list but the decision to use PL made it seem like a good time to test out Hydra, hence having a lot of Termagants around to protect the gunline. In a more optimized list (with sufficient models available) a mix of Hydra Hormagaunts and Gargoyles would probably be better given both are fast enough to deliver themselves and Gargoyles especially like the Hydra adaptation.
Thinking I might swap the Impaler cannons for Shock Cannons in the prior Hydra swarm list. Makes them cheaper which makes them possible respawn targets along with the gaunts.
If you are going to use the stratagem on warriors then consider putting venom cannons in there and possibly a prime. They can form a really good hybrid shooting/Assault platform.
Remember that for termagants, Gargoyles and hormagants you can do that stratagem in any hive fleet.
So something like jormungandr where they’re annoyingly difficult to remove the first time....and then they just come back later? GROSS.
One use for Endless Swarm that I hadn’t really thought of is a late game unit of Devilgants. I mean...imagine saving 4 CP for those dudes to come on turn 4/5 and double firing. Talk about a game winner! Sure, you’re playing down 240 points for much of the game, but since the spawned unit is the same as the original, it should still be obsec too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or if you need to do it on turn 2 or 3 because thosw buggers got focused down early, go for it! What I really like about this ability is being able to outflank for free. 100% worth it in many lists IMO. Only downside is not having that troops choice count towards your battalion, but let’s be real. We all needed another ripper unit anyhow
Remember that for termagants, Gargoyles and hormagants you can do that stratagem in any hive fleet.
So something like jormungandr where they’re annoyingly difficult to remove the first time....and then they just come back later? GROSS.
True I forgot about that. Not sure I would use it with Jormungandr though as they tend to be a bit starved for command points in my experience, though having the unit pop up with the benefits of cover does have some appeal.
While the prior list doesn't really take advantage of it very well, Hydra does have the ability to respawn any infantry unit which is appealing to me as a counter to alpha strikes. Enemy nuke a Hive Guard brood? Now they're back and set up in a most inconvenient location. Zoanthropes get fried? Not anymore. Venomthropes, Warriors, Raveners... Anything that can be built in blocks of 120-ish points and is prone to getting focus fired down is a potentially good target without breaking the points bank.
luke1705 wrote:
Or if you need to do it on turn 2 or 3 because thosw buggers got focused down early, go for it! What I really like about this ability is being able to outflank for free.
It also has some flexibility in your having complete control over what comes back, when it comes back, and where it comes back. The other Respawn abilities all have much heavier restrictions and limitations.
Niiai wrote:The strat works with pheromon trail right?
Hey guys, just wondering is their a way to buff Genestealers to make them stronger like the Cult Genestealers e.g. unit of 20 Cult Genestealers can be buffed to S6 -1 D 1, -4 on 6+ to wound via Might from Beyond and Acolyte Iconward Relic and produce 100 attacks (5 per model) from being 10+ modles in unit and Might from Beyond.
I know Genestealers can be given toxic sacs to deal 1 extra dmg on a 6+ but can their Strength be buffed to 5 or 6? Or can to produce more then 80 attacks? Thanks for the help
Masutaman wrote: Does the jord strategem that lets you put an infantry unit with raveners cost one cp per unit deployed, or 1 cp to deploy 1 or more units?
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys, just wondering is their a way to buff Genestealers to make them stronger like the Cult Genestealers e.g. unit of 20 Cult Genestealers can be buffed to S6 -1 D 1, -4 on 6+ to wound via Might from Beyond and Acolyte Iconward Relic and produce 100 attacks (5 per model) from being 10+ modles in unit and Might from Beyond.
I know Genestealers can be given toxic sacs to deal 1 extra dmg on a 6+ but can their Strength be buffed to 5 or 6? Or can to produce more then 80 attacks? Thanks for the help
Not really.
Most buffs you can give them are movement oriented. Or defensive. Not many offensive buffs, but they're usually killy enough on their own.
A broodlord buffs their hit rolls by 1.
You could use Gorgon to make them reroll wounds of 1.
There are also a couple of ways to make them reroll hits.
But nothing increases their strength. The only way to give them more attacks is to use the stratagem that lets them fight a second time at the end of the fight phase.
I really want to keep the 3 Hive Tyrants. They are one of the main reasons why I want to start Tyranids.
The Warriors will use the Single-minded Annihilation Stratagem. This gives them 27 additional Deathspitter shots, which is not bad at all.
Hive Guard is cool, but in my opinion they are not optimal/needed in a Behemoth list and I don't want to mix Hive Fleets.
Valid. IMO it's a little sub-optimal to have warriors shoot twice, but it is a lot of shots. I also think that Hive Guard are still good in Behemoth, but I do respect you not wanting to mix hive fleets.
And hey, keeping a unit because you think they're cool is always a good reason to field a unit. For what it's worth, a flyrant as you've loaded it out is definitely a good unit. They might not be the best possible use of 200ish points, but they're certainly far from awful.
Would definitely be interested in hearing more about how your warriors fare once you get them rocking. I have a feeling that they're under appreciated for what they bring to the table (myself included)
About the Warriors, I think they're awesome. But bear in mind my list is almost entirely Warriors.
Running Jorm, for 25 points you get 3 T4 3+save wounds, immune to morale, 3 S4 attacks and an Assault Heavy Bolter. Pure division from 2000 points gets you get 80 of them. Consider the basis of an army with 240 wounds, and 240 S5 ap -1 shots at 24". So working backwards from there to fill HQ slots (Primes for Warrior buff and Neurothropes for cheapish psykers) and thats where I'm at with my list.
I'm still noodling around with the exact list but I've done a couple games with massed Warriors now and it's been really effective so far. They're quite tough to begin with and having gobs of them has seen them outlast a lot of fire, and multiple Neurothropes have been able to Mortal Wound out the tougher stuff.
I really want to keep the 3 Hive Tyrants. They are one of the main reasons why I want to start Tyranids.
The Warriors will use the Single-minded Annihilation Stratagem. This gives them 27 additional Deathspitter shots, which is not bad at all.
Hive Guard is cool, but in my opinion they are not optimal/needed in a Behemoth list and I don't want to mix Hive Fleets.
Valid. IMO it's a little sub-optimal to have warriors shoot twice, but it is a lot of shots. I also think that Hive Guard are still good in Behemoth, but I do respect you not wanting to mix hive fleets.
And hey, keeping a unit because you think they're cool is always a good reason to field a unit. For what it's worth, a flyrant as you've loaded it out is definitely a good unit. They might not be the best possible use of 200ish points, but they're certainly far from awful.
Would definitely be interested in hearing more about how your warriors fare once you get them rocking. I have a feeling that they're under appreciated for what they bring to the table (myself included)
About the Warriors, I think they're awesome. But bear in mind my list is almost entirely Warriors.
Running Jorm, for 25 points you get 3 T4 3+save wounds, immune to morale, 3 S4 attacks and an Assault Heavy Bolter. Pure division from 2000 points gets you get 80 of them. Consider the basis of an army with 240 wounds, and 240 S5 ap -1 shots at 24". So working backwards from there to fill HQ slots (Primes for Warrior buff and Neurothropes for cheapish psykers) and thats where I'm at with my list.
I'm still noodling around with the exact list but I've done a couple games with massed Warriors now and it's been really effective so far. They're quite tough to begin with and having gobs of them has seen them outlast a lot of fire, and multiple Neurothropes have been able to Mortal Wound out the tougher stuff.
Have you tried running Leviathan? A "all warriors" list could be seriously strong.
Lance845 wrote: Upping the armor save is more valuable than a 6+ fnp.
Not always.
That bonus has a lot of limitations (melee, advance, charge, ignore cover etc...).
Even when you apply it, the 6++ is still better against damage 3 and d6 weapons. Probably d3 also, but i'm so tired that typing was already difficult, so that's a calculation i'll leave for tomorrow.
So, I started dipping my toes into the Genestealers Cult quite recently so have obviously tooken an interest in the Tyranids as well. I have never played nids before and every time I go to make a list I am honestly over whelmed by the amount of units that are available per section (e.g. troops, Heavy Support etc). I was wondering if I suggested what I have available could you guys help me out with making an effective 500-1000pt list so I can learn it back to front and go on from there.
I currently have access to;
1 Tyranids Swarm Boxs,
2 Old Start Collecting box
2 sets of Space Hulk Genestealers and Broollords
Carnifex/Old One Eye,
15 Gargoylles and 20 Hormagaunts and 20 Termagants.
Lance845 wrote: Upping the armor save is more valuable than a 6+ fnp.
Not always.
That bonus has a lot of limitations (melee, advance, charge, ignore cover etc...).
Even when you apply it, the 6++ is still better against damage 3 and d6 weapons. Probably d3 also, but i'm so tired that typing was already difficult, so that's a calculation i'll leave for tomorrow.
It's an interesting comparison, but I prefer Jorm for making me not even think about cover for my army, and ignoring cover for the enemy army (WL trait), plus the Jorm Stratagem is outrageously good imo, even if I don't have burrowers in my collection yet. I'll be using them soon enough and sprouting Warriors from the ground.
Also as a minor thing, but it requires no extra die roll.
It looks like one more of the dreaded "screens" is gone. Brimstones went the way of the conscripts.
At this point, what screens are left out there? Is it still correct for us to assume that the opponent will always have a screen?
Apart from infantry squads, which are not that good as screens, what is left?
Conscripts are still terrifying turn 1 screens, but guards no longer like to field those since by turn 2 they are running as fast as possible from the battlefield.
Amishprn86 wrote: I haven't played with warriors yet, but that sb.c i havent remodeled mine still from 5th ed.
I was going to play a large amount of them soon (i mean play them many times in many games).
From what i've seen/math i 100% sure i'm just going to do BS/DS's.
I do like HC and HVC a lot but i have 2 Harpies and HT's for that.
I've been using a squad of 9 with 3 VC and 6 DS and all have bone swords and adrenal glands out of a trygon - then I run a prime up to meet them. It's pretty amazing how much damage they put out when they shoot twice and pull off a charge.
I am, still, in the proces of painting 18 warriors. I finalt got to order the last 3 warriors, and I added some more bone swords to them.
However, in this process I thought mayby I could make some 9 more warriors, and then in ecah squad have 3 warriors with scything tallons and spinefists, just to buy 'more wounds' for the squad. Each of these extra hit points would only come at the price of 22 (as I am running adrenaline glands.) Although for 27 you get the bolter and sword, so maiby not.
So, I started dipping my toes into the Genestealers Cult quite recently so have obviously tooken an interest in the Tyranids as well. I have never played nids before and every time I go to make a list I am honestly over whelmed by the amount of units that are available per section (e.g. troops, Heavy Support etc). I was wondering if I suggested what I have available could you guys help me out with making an effective 500-1000pt list so I can learn it back to front and go on from there.
I currently have access to;
1 Tyranids Swarm Boxs,
2 Old Start Collecting box
2 sets of Space Hulk Genestealers and Broollords
Carnifex/Old One Eye,
15 Gargoylles and 20 Hormagaunts and 20 Termagants.
Based on what you have, you could probably cobble together a rush list fairly easily. I'd probably start with a core of 2x Winged Hive Tyrants, 60 Hormagaunts, and 30 Gargoyles. Genestealers are excellent blenders, but since you don't have any dedicated delivery options you might be better served running them as Genestealer Cult Purestrain Genestealers with the Space Hulk Broodlords acting as Patriarchs (models are about the same size so can be used as a fill-in).
Based on what you have, you could probably cobble together a rush list fairly easily. I'd probably start with a core of 2x Winged Hive Tyrants, 60 Hormagaunts, and 30 Gargoyles. Genestealers are excellent blenders, but since you don't have any dedicated delivery options you might be better served running them as Genestealer Cult Purestrain Genestealers with the Space Hulk Broodlords acting as Patriarchs (models are about the same size so can be used as a fill-in).
Bear in mind that the price for purestrain genestealers hasn't been dropped and don't have access to Acid Maw.
Amishprn86 wrote: I haven't played with warriors yet, but that sb.c i havent remodeled mine still from 5th ed.
I was going to play a large amount of them soon (i mean play them many times in many games).
From what i've seen/math i 100% sure i'm just going to do BS/DS's.
I do like HC and HVC a lot but i have 2 Harpies and HT's for that.
I've been using a squad of 9 with 3 VC and 6 DS and all have bone swords and adrenal glands out of a trygon - then I run a prime up to meet them. It's pretty amazing how much damage they put out when they shoot twice and pull off a charge.
I have 9? Shrieks i'm thinking about using a Swarmlord with them and seeng what they can do also.
Niiai wrote: I am, still, in the proces of painting 18 warriors. I finalt got to order the last 3 warriors, and I added some more bone swords to them.
However, in this process I thought mayby I could make some 9 more warriors, and then in ecah squad have 3 warriors with scything tallons and spinefists, just to buy 'more wounds' for the squad. Each of these extra hit points would only come at the price of 22 (as I am running adrenaline glands.) Although for 27 you get the bolter and sword, so maiby not.
I was thinking along the same lines when I was building my squads, which were 6 DS and 3 BS models for 9 models. Honestly though, "buying more wounds" doesn't seem worth it when the model is 22 points vs. only 3 points more for another Warrior with a Deathspitter. I'm starting to think Deathspitters all day every day for my army. The Deathspitters start doing damage from the get-go for only 3 points.
In the end, Bonesword models are 4 Attacks at S4 -2 in Combat.
Deathspitters are 3 Shots at 24" S5 -1, plus 3 Attacks at S4 -0 in Combat.
So a 6 attack potential compared to 4, three of which are higher Strength and don't require being within 1" of the enemy.
Based on what you have, you could probably cobble together a rush list fairly easily. I'd probably start with a core of 2x Winged Hive Tyrants, 60 Hormagaunts, and 30 Gargoyles. Genestealers are excellent blenders, but since you don't have any dedicated delivery options you might be better served running them as Genestealer Cult Purestrain Genestealers with the Space Hulk Broodlords acting as Patriarchs (models are about the same size so can be used as a fill-in).
Bear in mind that the price for purestrain genestealers hasn't been dropped and don't have access to Acid Maw.
Thanks for the tips N8.
What Hive fleet would suit the models you recommend? What would you recommend I get to beef it up. Also, I can get my hands on some Biovores and spores, they any good this edition?
ChargerIIC
I think 20 Purestrain Genestealers buffed by Might from Beyond (+1 A and S) and with an Acolyte Iconward with the Relic (+1 S) can do a lot more damage then Genestealers w/ Acid Maws.
5 Genestealers w/ Acid Maws produce 20 s4 -3 D1 attacks. The other 15 are then doing 60 s4 -1 D1 with 6+ to wound becoming -4.
20 Purestrain Genestealers with maximum support dole out 100 S6 -1 D1 attacks with 6+ to wound becoming - 4.
Biovores are great this edition. Easy mortal wounds, and misses are actually often better than hits as they either force the enemy to shoot them (wasting shooting just to deny the wound), move around them, or allow themselves to be hit.
As for what you should get to add, you have loads of troops: hive guard with impaler cannons are a great option for anti-tank, trygon/prime for getting genestealers in close (if you don't go for the GSC patrol instead), make one of those hive tyrants into a swarmlord if you can.
You have a boatload of tyranids, mainly just need to figure out which big bugs you want to run next to your large groups of horms/terms/gargoyles.
I think 20 Purestrain Genestealers buffed by Might from Beyond (+1 A and S) and with an Acolyte Iconward with the Relic (+1 S) can do a lot more damage then Genestealers w/ Acid Maws.
5 Genestealers w/ Acid Maws produce 20 s4 -3 D1 attacks. The other 15 are then doing 60 s4 -1 D1 with 6+ to wound becoming -4.
20 Purestrain Genestealers with maximum support dole out 100 S6 -1 D1 attacks with 6+ to wound becoming - 4.
The purestrains cost 25% more points than hive fleet genestealers, and are also relying on a couple of support units to get those buffs. They're nice buffs, but you're paying a lot for them.
The hive fleet genestealers get some pretty awesome bonuses just for being in a detachment (Krakens super advance, plus fall back and charge in the same turn is utterly amazing for genestealers).
Plus they have their own support units and psychic powers (catalyst is great defensively, along with -1 to hit bonuses from malan/venomthropes)
Not to mention being troops rather than elites.
For now at least, until GSC get their codex, hive fleet genestealers are a fair bit better.
What Hive fleet would suit the models you recommend? What would you recommend I get to beef it up. Also, I can get my hands on some Biovores and spores, they any good this edition?
Kraken is probably going to go best with the rush list, being both the fastest adaptation and allowing your units to leave combat and still assault. Most of the units in the hypothetical core have Fly, so the adaptation means those units can more or less act normally after leaving combat.
Biovores are very good, though are less a damage dealer than a utility piece. Their ability to drop Spore Mines anywhere allows you to control enemy movement and interfere with certain abilities (Smite being a big one). That said, Spores do mortal wounds, so they are surprisingly handy against big targets and armored infantry.
Spoletta wrote: Do not underestimate the built in deep strike on those stealer though.
More or less this. Hive Fleet Genestealers are cheaper but they rely on other units to deliver them at full strength which brings the total cost up to the point that the two are more or less equal. Purestrains also can go back into ambush via Return to Shadows to reposition if needed. In either case though, Odrankt said he was wanting to run Tyranids alongside GSC so it made sense to consider them given his Tyranid collection doesn't have any Tunnelers or Tyrannocytes to act as delivery systems.
The purestrains cost 25% more points than hive fleet genestealers, and are also relying on a couple of support units to get those buffs. They're nice buffs, but you're paying a lot for them.
The hive fleet genestealers get some pretty awesome bonuses just for being in a detachment (Krakens super advance, plus fall back and charge in the same turn is utterly amazing for genestealers).
Plus they have their own support units and psychic powers (catalyst is great defensively, along with -1 to hit bonuses from malan/venomthropes)
Not to mention being troops rather than elites.
For now at least, until GSC get their codex, hive fleet genestealers are a fair bit better.
While 20 Purestrain cost 320pts compared to 20 NidStealers that cost 240pts (80pt cheaper) I still think Purestrain are better if not tougher. Icon Acolyte is only 53pts and he gives 6+ FnP to models within 6" of him and +1 S to units with 6". So for 373 you now have Purestrains who are S5 -1 D1 with the 6+ FnP. Patriarch will make this "Deathstar" 520-30pts but he allows them +1 to hit and can cast either Might from Beyond for +1 A and S or can cast Mass Hypnosis which stops the enemy target from Overwatch, fighting 1st and a -1 to hit until the next phase.
Combo might be expensive and take up a 1/4 if your armies points but youl have a T6-5 Melee killer that will make up for the points you spent.
Also, my main army is Necrons so I am used to dumping loads of points just to get good units lol
If your looking for strong/reliable CC units then GSC Aberrants are your new best friend. If equipped with Hammers they are S10 -3 D 3 w/ -1 to hit. Put these bad boys with an Acolyte and Primus for +1 S (S12 -3 D 3), 6+ FnP and +1 to hit from the Primus. Or, run them in a Supreme Command detach to get these guys, Iconward, Primus and Magus. Do as above but use the Magus to either cast Mass Hypnosis to not get Overwatched or Might from Beyond to make them S14. Youl wound most things on 2+ and doing a flat 3 dmg per wound is always nice.
I posted this on Tyranid Hive board, come to share this.
I've been thinking, Flyrant with 2 pairs of talon takes Mind Eater WL trait going on a characters-hunting mission. Unlike Overrun stratagem this trait doesn't restrict you to move within 1" of enemy unit in Fight phase.
So vs list with alots of Characters like IG you can do like DS, charge and kill a character, move to within 1" of another nearby character (easy to do with 16" + D6" + 1"), activate Adrenaline Surge to kill that character. Then move again to lock-in combat with other stuff like tanks.
The purestrains cost 25% more points than hive fleet genestealers, and are also relying on a couple of support units to get those buffs. They're nice buffs, but you're paying a lot for them.
The hive fleet genestealers get some pretty awesome bonuses just for being in a detachment (Krakens super advance, plus fall back and charge in the same turn is utterly amazing for genestealers).
Plus they have their own support units and psychic powers (catalyst is great defensively, along with -1 to hit bonuses from malan/venomthropes)
Not to mention being troops rather than elites.
For now at least, until GSC get their codex, hive fleet genestealers are a fair bit better.
While 20 Purestrain cost 320pts compared to 20 NidStealers that cost 240pts (80pt cheaper) I still think Purestrain are better if not tougher. Icon Acolyte is only 53pts and he gives 6+ FnP to models within 6" of him and +1 S to units with 6". So for 373 you now have Purestrains who are S5 -1 D1 with the 6+ FnP. Patriarch will make this "Deathstar" 520-30pts but he allows them +1 to hit and can cast either Might from Beyond for +1 A and S or can cast Mass Hypnosis which stops the enemy target from Overwatch, fighting 1st and a -1 to hit until the next phase.
Combo might be expensive and take up a 1/4 if your armies points but youl have a T6-5 Melee killer that will make up for the points you spent.
Also, my main army is Necrons so I am used to dumping loads of points just to get good units lol
If your looking for strong/reliable CC units then GSC Aberrants are your new best friend. If equipped with Hammers they are S10 -3 D 3 w/ -1 to hit. Put these bad boys with an Acolyte and Primus for +1 S (S12 -3 D 3), 6+ FnP and +1 to hit from the Primus. Or, run them in a Supreme Command detach to get these guys, Iconward, Primus and Magus. Do as above but use the Magus to either cast Mass Hypnosis to not get Overwatched or Might from Beyond to make them S14. Youl wound most things on 2+ and doing a flat 3 dmg per wound is always nice.
The purestrain g stealers are 300, not 320 i believe. The problem with stacking the above auraes is that they need to roll the same reserve dice. That can be hard to do. With so much invested you want to use a primus with the new stratagem to deliver them. That is 375 points. You also need to remove chaff as everyone bundels up vs tyranids.
Alternativly you can for those points just run 2 units of nids stealers of 15 for 360 points.
What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
Deathleaper lost the ability to set up right next to characters in the codex. Now it just deepstrikes normally, but with a re-roll to charge. Same as regular lictors. It's basically just a regular lictor, but slightly better. Unfortunately it's still pretty bad. It's supposed to be a character hunter, but doesn't do enough damage for that job.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
Deathleaper lost the ability to set up right next to characters in the codex. Now it just deepstrikes normally, but with a re-roll to charge. Same as regular lictors.
It's basically just a regular lictor, but slightly better. Unfortunately it's still pretty bad. It's supposed to be a character hunter, but doesn't do enough damage for that job.
One of the poorer units in the codex I'd say.
Just FYIHQ builder's rules on him are still index. Almost no reason to take him over a regular lictor. :(
I've been thinking, Flyrant with 2 pairs of talon takes Mind Eater WL trait going on a characters-hunting mission. Unlike Overrun stratagem this trait doesn't restrict you to move within 1" of enemy unit in Fight phase.
It says you move like as if it was your movement phase. The core rules says that you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit in the movement phase. So I'd say nope, unfortunately.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
He seems like a slightly better lictor, especially after the codex dropped he got nerfed. Personally, i would prefer that they took out the Red Terror and Death Leaper and put hte Doom of Malantai and Paraiste of Mortex back in.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
He seems like a slightly better lictor, especially after the codex dropped he got nerfed. Personally, i would prefer that they took out the Red Terror and Death Leaper and put hte Doom of Malantai and Paraiste of Mortex back in.
Well, we all know why it is the way it is. They have the models for the first two and not the other two.
Xenomancers wrote: What do you think about the death-leaper? He is kind of interesting. Not so much for his ability to set up really close characters but for the ability to set up even closer to other things. Plus he's -2 to hit all the time.
Is he just too expensive and too easy to counter? IDK.
Deathleaper lost the ability to set up right next to characters in the codex. Now it just deepstrikes normally, but with a re-roll to charge. Same as regular lictors.
It's basically just a regular lictor, but slightly better. Unfortunately it's still pretty bad. It's supposed to be a character hunter, but doesn't do enough damage for that job.
One of the poorer units in the codex I'd say.
Just FYIHQ builder's rules on him are still index. Almost now reason to take him over a regular lictor.
Not a legal way to play it though outside of friendlies.
I don't know about the DL. The fact that he is a character and that he has -2 to hit him is something I have not really taken into account. Perhaps we could use him as a champion of sorts as long as there are some gaunts between him and the rest. Your opponent can not shoot him. He is S6 in melee.
He is indeed fairly tough to take down. You could even stick him next to a malanthrope or venomthropes if you want for a -3 to hit. Probably fairly pointless to do so however, as the character rule does far more to protect him against shooting than an improved negative hit modifier would.
The problem is that his attacks are kinda weak, and he doesn't do anything else interesting. Most characters have no trouble surviving the kind of damage he dishes out, and even with the -2 to hit him in combat, can probably deal about as much damage back as he did to them.
I kind of want them to get rid of the red terror and turn the prime into something far more modular.
Kind of like the consul (?) From 30k ( the generic hq that can be upgraded into a bunch of stuff). Stock prime is a warrior. Serpent prime replaces the red terror. Wings prime for shrikes that could mirror Mortex.
Lance845 wrote: I kind of want them to get rid of the red terror and turn the prime into something far more modular.
Kind of like the consul (?) From 30k ( the generic hq that can be upgraded into a bunch of stuff). Stock prime is a warrior. Serpent prime replaces the red terror. Wings prime for shrikes that could mirror Mortex.
I feel like that would be much better.
That would be fantastic. A pricey standalone kit for him with a treasure trove of bits like that would be an instant buy for me.
So I noticed that the Stone-Crusher Carnifex doesn't get a +1 to hit rolls after a successful charge like the Codex Carnifexes(Carnifexen?) do. What are the odds that the FW rules are going to get updated to be in line with its Carnifex-brothers?
Also on that note, thoughts on the 2x Wrecker Claws vs the 1x Claw, 1x Flail?
ShiokenStar wrote: So I noticed that the Stone-Crusher Carnifex doesn't get a +1 to hit rolls after a successful charge like the Codex Carnifexes(Carnifexen?) do. What are the odds that the FW rules are going to get updated to be in line with its Carnifex-brothers?
Also on that note, thoughts on the 2x Wrecker Claws vs the 1x Claw, 1x Flail?
While we're talking Carnifexes, how are you guys keeping them alive? I've tried running three SC Carnifexes + OOE in like four games so far and I haven't gotten better than one wounded one + OOE into combat. They just seem to get sniped by AT weapons on the walk up, even with Trygons/Mawlocs being there to draw fire.
ShiokenStar wrote: So I noticed that the Stone-Crusher Carnifex doesn't get a +1 to hit rolls after a successful charge like the Codex Carnifexes(Carnifexen?) do. What are the odds that the FW rules are going to get updated to be in line with its Carnifex-brothers?
Also on that note, thoughts on the 2x Wrecker Claws vs the 1x Claw, 1x Flail?
While we're talking Carnifexes, how are you guys keeping them alive? I've tried running three SC Carnifexes + OOE in like four games so far and I haven't gotten better than one wounded one + OOE into combat. They just seem to get sniped by AT weapons on the walk up, even with Trygons/Mawlocs being there to draw fire.
Pick Kraken, and run those bad boys as fast as you can. Use swarmlord for extra movement.
But Yeah, I have run them 2x, and they are AT magnets. Which is fine bc my tryants get to live.
You don't take Deathleaper for his damage output, you take him so you can deepstrike an untargetable character onto an objective and score easy points.
So 
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Buy Krakon speed rushers need to charge off the advance.
minimum movement is gone for good, having a range from 0-30" is super cool 
I've modified this list yet again, and it's posted in army lists. 
