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Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 08:04:57


Post by: N.I.B.


 Lance845 wrote:
The nerothrope might be 70 points, but rumors say cast 2 deny 2 with synapse and sitw with a 3++ (if its stat line stays the same).

Nope, that's the Maleceptor. And Neurothrope is 70pts.

Spoletta wrote:
 N.I.B. wrote:
Just remember Devilgants need synapse within 24" to operate at full effect - a Trygon Prime may still have a role.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the Sporefield stratagem. I used the old Sporefield a lot in 7th ed, and now with 8th ed it's potentially a powerful tool that we've been missing in the index - 'Infiltrate'. The power to say 'no' to deepstriking units and push back first turn charges.

Would be nice to have a clarification on the timings of the Sporefield strategem - at the point you decide whether or not to use it, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.


Even if it comes after infiltrating units, and i think that this is the case, you can still block deepstrikers.

Not if they too have infiltrators, like Nurglings, and gets to place them before your Sporefield.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 08:16:17


Post by: Amishprn86


You still can Block DSing tho....you roll off and then alternate its not like you wont get 1 in a good spot and its not like its always bad b.c 1-2 armies can do the same.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 08:45:53


Post by: N.I.B.


Again - at the point you decide whether or not to use Sporefield, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 08:59:56


Post by: Amishprn86


Thee are so many variables and we now have options, it was a good suggestion.

I personally love the Sporefield stratagem and most likely will take it everytime.

To answer your question tho, I know who has the "better" chance to go 1st b.c i can count drops and if i KNOW they are going to DS some crazy gak, i will deploy to counter that without the Sporefield, the Sporefield is bonus.

And the other player doesnt get to set up all his before me, you roll off, the winner places 1 unit 1st, then the other player and you repeat.

Again, its a good suggestion that will work, but just like ALL strategies, it wont work all the time, thats what makes a good player great, is knowing what to do and when.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 12:45:15


Post by: Zimko


You might as well call this a rumor thread and make a new thread once the codex comes out. Otherwise we'll end up with 20 pages of speculation before we get to actual useful codex discussion.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:15:29


Post by: xmbk


 Amishprn86 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."


Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.


When a biovore shoots it's gun it creates a new unit of spore mines. The size of the unit doesn't matter/is irrelevant. It creates a new unit.



I understand what it is technically saying. I also know it was written before there was a stratagem for pregame units. I think it's reasonable to expect a FAQ, assuming it's not made clear somewhere in the codex.


I've been out giving candy just came back, its 3CP!!!!! 3!!! not 1, not 2 but 3!!! they are free.........


Come down from the candy high.

How big is the unit you get to drop for free?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:20:57


Post by: Niiai


You get 2 units. The unit is base 3 mines, but you can buy 3 more. That is a potensial 12 mines. 12 " away.

Kraken general rule say you run with 3d6 picking the highest. Spore mines move base 1d6". If they end up within 3" of a model they will on averadge deal 1 mortal wound each.

So on 1d6 + highest of 3d6 you need to get 9. The averadge roll of 2d6 is 7. So chances are there that you pay 3 commandpoints for 12 mortal wounds. Asuming the opponent does not steal. If you want to you can use the kraken stratgem to make them run 2x, but now you are paying 5 command points for it.

It depends a bit on the timing if we know who goes first. But generally it will be high risk, potensially high reward. Putting 12 wounds on a tank before turn 1 can be good, Can also be countered by a screening unit.

Edit: Ops, had the wrong number.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:34:25


Post by: Zimko


I thought spore mines had to be 12" away? That's how they deep strike with the index and the rumor from this threads front page says 12" for the stratagem.

So even if you try to use them to secure a place to deep strike, your opponents can still deny you a crucial 3 inches with their own infiltrators. You'll be able to get close enough to shoot but you'll be put of reach for charging. It's better than nothing but still not as good as normal infiltrators.

Also, spore mines have a movement of 3" unless there's been a leaked changed to their profile.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:37:18


Post by: Amishprn86


It will depend on the Sporefield rule, the rule you are talking about if Float Down and it does say 12"


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:40:14


Post by: Zimko


 Amishprn86 wrote:
It will depend on the Sporefield rule, the rule you are talking about if Float Down and it does say 12"


I edited my post to clarify. The spoiler we have so far says 12" for the strategem. Like everything in this thread, it'll depend on what the actual codex says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For now, the stratagem is worthwhile as a means to deny enemy deep strikers if you have a lot of things in your backfield that you don't want to get charged on turn 1. But they'll be less useful for securing a place for your own deep strikers.

It may still be a necessity for the meta to have some kind of infiltrator so this 3 CP stratagem is unfortunately the only option we ha e so far. I'm just pointing out it's limitations.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:45:58


Post by: Amishprn86


The leaks so far been pretty darn good, but some have had missing parts to them, i dont want to say yes one way or another until we see the details.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 13:54:16


Post by: Niiai


The leaks are good... yes. But wrong information is a killer of motevation.

I was really looking forward to carnifex venom cannons with re-roll to hit and wound. Turns out that was wrong. Next I was hoping for cheap lictor transports. Turns out that was wrong. More wrong information will probably be in there.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 14:01:33


Post by: xmbk


You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 14:24:16


Post by: Niiai


xmbk wrote:
You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


The problem with your argument is that the very reasons you give, is covered in the codex already. The codex specify how you pay for them. It say's you do not pay for them. Biovores makes spore mines, and the rules for making more spore mines ingame is already covered in the spore mines entry. That entry says they are free.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 14:24:32


Post by: Amishprn86


xmbk wrote:
You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


Well i dont agree at all with that, b.c you CAN already DS them now WHILE paying for them, this means there is literally no point in using the CP... 3CP being an insane amount to do something you already can do.

The details i didnt want to talk about are "how close", "The size of the unit" etc...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:06:09


Post by: dan2026


What is the purpose of the Mawloc?

You can pop up and maybe do a few mortal wounds to one or two units, then what?

You can't shoot or charge. So you will probably get destroyed the next turn.

I feel I'm missing something.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:18:43


Post by: Marmatag


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
At 45 pts with 2 casts and 2 denies, Neurothropes are probably the best non-unique psykers in the game.

At 70 pts, they're still one of the best, but can't put out the volume of smite as the cheaper casters. Though they still deny at nearly the same efficiency (With the added -1 penalty within 18").

Depending on specifics, I think will be either very good, or best-in-game-conversation good.

That, of course, would also change with a smite nerf.


This sums it up.

If they get a points reduction, expect to see at least 3-5 in every list.

However, I would preach caution here, because a smite nerf seems inevitable.

My personal preference would be they give each discipline a spammable "primaris" power that's more in line with that the faction does, and have that capped at 3 casts, and have smite capped at 3 casts as Trace mentioned may be the nerf. But now we're talking game balance in the future, so i'll stop. But I do maintain that smite is really too strong on any platform less than 50 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As such, if you’re looking to add the Swarmlord, Red Terror, Deathleaper or Old One Eye to your army, you won’t be restricted by which hive fleet you choose!

Just want to repost this, since it was a topic of discussion earlier. This confirms that every single character is not restricted to a hive fleet. GREAT NEWS!!!!!!


These updates are amazing i am pumped. Hive Tyrants will live past turn 2!

I am super lost though.

I feel like double battalion is better than brigade because of the nature of the hive fleet buffs.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:23:41


Post by: Amishprn86


 dan2026 wrote:
What is the purpose of the Mawloc?

You can pop up and maybe do a few mortal wounds to one or two units, then what?

You can't shoot or charge. So you will probably get destroyed the next turn.

I feel I'm missing something.


If they bunker up you could get 4-5 units. Eldar, 2 units of Dark Reapers with a Warlock is a perfect example of why Mawlocs are good. Not only did you kill a couple guys and wounded the Warlock, but now they need to spend 300pts shooting at your 100pt model or die next turn. Or 4 units of Havocs, etc... killing 4-5 SM will get its points back and waste their shooting.

Edit: Grammar


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:30:40


Post by: Niiai


Can somebody clearefy the rules?

Kraken units kan roll 3d6 when advancing.

They can fall back and charge in the same turn.

But the way the rules are written, can all kraken models advance and charge in the same turn?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:32:47


Post by: str00dles1


Yea, seeing that the characters can be whatever hive fleet is huge. Restricted to Levi, swarm lord was going to be total crap like he is now, but with this and his improved invuln hes much better elsewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody clearefy the rules?

Kraken units kan roll 3d6 when advancing.

They can fall back and charge in the same turn.

But the way the rules are written, can all kraken models advance and charge in the same turn?


I don't get the question?

They can fall back and charge.

Advance is part of your move, but you cant advance if you fall back. You only get to move your natural speed in any direction


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:34:49


Post by: Amishprn86


 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody clearefy the rules?

Kraken units kan roll 3d6 when advancing.

They can fall back and charge in the same turn.

But the way the rules are written, can all kraken models advance and charge in the same turn?


Fall back and charge, and you advancing are on 2 different turns....

You can Move>Advance>only charge if having a rule to let you

Your next movement >Fallback>Charge


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:35:15


Post by: xmbk


 Niiai wrote:
xmbk wrote:
You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


The problem with your argument is that the very reasons you give, is covered in the codex already. The codex specify how you pay for them. It say's you do not pay for them. Biovores makes spore mines, and the rules for making more spore mines ingame is already covered in the spore mines entry. That entry says they are free.


Conflating index with codex is a mistake. They are free when a Biovore fires them. The codex is talking about deploying a unit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:36:37


Post by: Lance845


 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody clearefy the rules?

Kraken units kan roll 3d6 when advancing.

They can fall back and charge in the same turn.

But the way the rules are written, can all kraken models advance and charge in the same turn?


It does not say they can advance and charge. simply that their advance and fall back is better.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:36:57


Post by: xmbk


 Amishprn86 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


Well i dont agree at all with that, b.c you CAN already DS them now WHILE paying for them, this means there is literally no point in using the CP... 3CP being an insane amount to do something you already can do.

The details i didnt want to talk about are "how close", "The size of the unit" etc...


Dropping them pregame is not the same as DS.

What do you mean by "details you didn't want to talk about"?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:40:05


Post by: Lance845


xmbk wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
xmbk wrote:
You're missing the point. No way the codex has a stratagem for dropping a unit of mines without specifying unit size or whether you pay for the mines with something other than CP. All this excitement is a bit premature. My bet is that you pay for those mines, which would make it situationally useful. The idea of units being bought with CP is just too outside the box.


Well i dont agree at all with that, b.c you CAN already DS them now WHILE paying for them, this means there is literally no point in using the CP... 3CP being an insane amount to do something you already can do.

The details i didnt want to talk about are "how close", "The size of the unit" etc...


Dropping them pregame is not the same as DS.

What do you mean by "details you didn't want to talk about"?


He means that we have had some details wrong in the leaks but the over all gist correct. We are not sure that it's a full unit of 6, a min unit of 3, or if spore mines can be taken in units of 10 again. We also don't know if they CP deploy at 12" or normal deepstrike of 9". The rumors have been solid enough that I am sure we have a strategem for dropping spore mines. How exactly that strategem works is up in the air.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:49:44


Post by: Niiai


 Lance845 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody clearefy the rules?

Kraken units kan roll 3d6 when advancing.

They can fall back and charge in the same turn.

But the way the rules are written, can all kraken models advance and charge in the same turn?


It does not say they can advance and charge. simply that their advance and fall back is better.


Thanks. That was what I was expecting. I was just trying to rule out that the 'they can fall back and charge' is not tied to them advancing. If so, that would be insane.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 16:59:19


Post by: Marmatag


You could think about it this way. You have a 70% chance to advance 5 or 6 inches with Kraken compared to 33% chance.

Of course none of this matters if you roll garbage advances, which is still possible. My opinion, it's one of the weaker traits, especially when you consider you lose out on really good stratagems (Kronos, Jormungandr), or really good overall traits (Behemot, Gorgon).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 17:13:20


Post by: Insectum7


Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 17:21:30


Post by: Lance845


 Insectum7 wrote:
Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


I am also not a big fan of the beetle like HT. I spent a bunch of time hunting down forgeworld tyrants to use instead.

I also have no interest in combining fleets. Keeping track of multiple synapse webs sounds awful.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 17:41:04


Post by: Marmatag


 Lance845 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


I am also not a big fan of the beetle like HT. I spent a bunch of time hunting down forgeworld tyrants to use instead.

I also have no interest in combining fleets. Keeping track of multiple synapse webs sounds awful.


I mean maybe. You could run a supreme command, and that detachment would never really worry about it's own synapse coverage.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 17:52:18


Post by: Lance845


 Marmatag wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


I am also not a big fan of the beetle like HT. I spent a bunch of time hunting down forgeworld tyrants to use instead.

I also have no interest in combining fleets. Keeping track of multiple synapse webs sounds awful.


I mean maybe. You could run a supreme command, and that detachment would never really worry about it's own synapse coverage.


While true they would also be providing synapse for nobody else.

I think of list build not unlike building a deck in MTG. In a 60 card deck you want just a little bit more than 20 mana cards. A little bit extra, or a couple ways to ensure you find the mana you need.

When I build a nid list I need to build in a certain number of synapse units. There has to be a ratio so that I can ensure I have that coverage and that my enemy can't just target my synapse because its inefficient.

Now you have a 1500-2000 point list. And you have to build that ratio TWICE within those point restrictions because the synapse is mutually exclusive. ugh...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 17:58:58


Post by: Ratius


Lovely buffs for Hive Tyrants. These things should be tough wrecking machines. Me is happy,


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 18:07:33


Post by: dan2026


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
What is the purpose of the Mawloc?

You can pop up and maybe do a few mortal wounds to one or two units, then what?

You can't shoot or charge. So you will probably get destroyed the next turn.

I feel I'm missing something.


If they bunker up you could get 4-5 units. Eldar, 2 units of Dark Reapers with a Warlock is a perfect example of why Mawlocs are good. Not only did you kill a couple guys and wounded the Warlock, but now they need to spend 300pts shooting at your 100pt model or die next turn. Or 4 units of Havocs, etc... killing 4-5 SM will get its points back and waste their shooting.

Edit: Grammar


I still feel there is nothing the Mawloc can do that the Trygon can't do better.
I guess the Mawloc is cheap.

Or at least the Mawloc is more at the mercy of good dice roles and bad enemy placement.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 18:32:40


Post by: Marmatag


 Lance845 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


I am also not a big fan of the beetle like HT. I spent a bunch of time hunting down forgeworld tyrants to use instead.

I also have no interest in combining fleets. Keeping track of multiple synapse webs sounds awful.


I mean maybe. You could run a supreme command, and that detachment would never really worry about it's own synapse coverage.


While true they would also be providing synapse for nobody else.

I think of list build not unlike building a deck in MTG. In a 60 card deck you want just a little bit more than 20 mana cards. A little bit extra, or a couple ways to ensure you find the mana you need.

When I build a nid list I need to build in a certain number of synapse units. There has to be a ratio so that I can ensure I have that coverage and that my enemy can't just target my synapse because its inefficient.

Now you have a 1500-2000 point list. And you have to build that ratio TWICE within those point restrictions because the synapse is mutually exclusive. ugh...


Well I mean let's be real here for 2 seconds, because we can technically bring imperial guard along for the ride, any competitive tyranid list is going to feature plasma scions, taurox primes, and probably manticores. Because, 8th edition is the guard edition, so why not?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 18:50:43


Post by: Lance845


 Marmatag wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Deep striking Tyrants looks pretty juicy, too bad I'm not a huge fan of the model.

The adaptive biology traits are cool too. Makes me wonder what other buffs are going to be available, and how that might make picking a Hive Fleet harder. I can't say that I'm into the idea of combining fleets, my models will be painted in the same scheme, so they will play the same scheme.


I am also not a big fan of the beetle like HT. I spent a bunch of time hunting down forgeworld tyrants to use instead.

I also have no interest in combining fleets. Keeping track of multiple synapse webs sounds awful.


I mean maybe. You could run a supreme command, and that detachment would never really worry about it's own synapse coverage.


While true they would also be providing synapse for nobody else.

I think of list build not unlike building a deck in MTG. In a 60 card deck you want just a little bit more than 20 mana cards. A little bit extra, or a couple ways to ensure you find the mana you need.

When I build a nid list I need to build in a certain number of synapse units. There has to be a ratio so that I can ensure I have that coverage and that my enemy can't just target my synapse because its inefficient.

Now you have a 1500-2000 point list. And you have to build that ratio TWICE within those point restrictions because the synapse is mutually exclusive. ugh...


Well I mean let's be real here for 2 seconds, because we can technically bring imperial guard along for the ride, any competitive tyranid list is going to feature plasma scions, taurox primes, and probably manticores. Because, 8th edition is the guard edition, so why not?


I won't be doing that at all. But lets go with that idea anyway.

So, trying to fit 2 hive fleets along with a GSC and a Guard detachment.... Maintaining potentially 2 synapse webs.... nope. Not going to happen. At that point it's impossible to do much of anything with the actual tyranids which means it's not a tyranid list and not part of this tactics thread. I would probably be of the opinion that Nids + GSC belongs here. Nids + GSC + AM probably belongs over in the GSC tactics for the most part because at that point were just a supplement to the GSC forces.

I think Nids on their own have the potential to be competitive in tournaments.

In particular I think Jormungdr is going to be a stand out because of the flexibility it offers between matches. A lot of each game can be decided by turn 1 and Jor offers opportunities, along with other generic command point benefits, not built into your list to pick and choose who, how many, and where they get deployed to maximize against opponent lists, table set up, and game type.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 19:09:08


Post by: Niiai


If you are bringing 2 synapse webs, have one Kronos backline with long ranged weapons and a malanthrope.

Your main force can maintain the Norn Crown, that makes the 'don't have to target the closest enemy' 30" range I belive. But rumours have been wrong before. But if the norn crown helps you maintain a synapse web you could use that for you non-backline.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 19:34:01


Post by: Cephalobeard


That's a decent question, though. Even including a Hive Tyrant or two, as Kronos, alongside some GSC would be worthwhile to include this now massive psychic disruption, while still allowing you access to imperial psykers if you were so inclined.

How interesting.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 19:41:20


Post by: Razerous


 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
What is the purpose of the Mawloc?

You can pop up and maybe do a few mortal wounds to one or two units, then what?

You can't shoot or charge. So you will probably get destroyed the next turn.

I feel I'm missing something.


If they bunker up you could get 4-5 units. Eldar, 2 units of Dark Reapers with a Warlock is a perfect example of why Mawlocs are good. Not only did you kill a couple guys and wounded the Warlock, but now they need to spend 300pts shooting at your 100pt model or die next turn. Or 4 units of Havocs, etc... killing 4-5 SM will get its points back and waste their shooting.

Edit: Grammar


I still feel there is nothing the Mawloc can do that the Trygon can't do better.
I guess the Mawloc is cheap.

Or at least the Mawloc is more at the mercy of good dice roles and bad enemy placement.
The Mawloc (especially a few of them) will directly impact a players deployment. It really punishes spreading out to deny deep strikers (the 9" denial zones) because you can fit a Mawloc into these relatively big gaps.

If a Mawlocs does 2-4 mortal wounds, happy days. They are also very cheap tough wounds.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 19:43:03


Post by: Kornath


I can't wait to fight my friends Tyranid army, sounds like it'll be a lot of fun especially given the new powers available. I'm not quite sure how I feel about the tyranids being able to massively disrupt the psychic phase, but it's their thing fluff wise.

I especially like the special cannon that ignores invulnerable saves, gives me hope that Necrons might get something like that.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 20:30:28


Post by: luke1705


The whole “allies doesn’t belong in this thread” talk is hopefully something that doesn’t become a sticking point like it did early in 8th.

There is no “right place” for Tyranids + GSC + AM. I get the idea that maybe GSC is the best place because they’re the linking faction, but imperial soup players have the same problem, as do Chaos soup players.

If you have something to add about the tactics involved, by all means do. If you don’t, please just bear with the people who actually would like to discuss those tactics, as saying “go to the other thread” is just going to make them post over there, where other people will want to say the same thing. Allies are a valid choice whether you want to be a purist or not.

Interestingly, what is probably going to turn me away from Nids + AM is the 3 source limit (for most competitive events) at 2k.

I like Leman Russes as much as the next guy, but pound for pound (relative points, durability and offensive output), the dakkafex isn’t that much worse. If the tank commander is an 9/10 infantry killer, then the dakkafex is like a 7.5 or 8/10. I think having Hive Fleet flexibility for shooty units vs assaulty units is more important. Now, if you mean the plasma tank commanders, different story. But exocrines with boosted damage and re-rolling 1’s to hit....I’m really not all that sad. Hive guard shooting twice is really good. Re-rolling 1’s to hit.

I think anything Guard can do, we can do pretty well. Except bring 5+ save models for 3 points. Womp.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 20:37:31


Post by: Insectum7


 Marmatag wrote:

Well I mean let's be real here for 2 seconds, because we can technically bring imperial guard along for the ride, any competitive tyranid list is going to feature plasma scions, taurox primes, and probably manticores. Because, 8th edition is the guard edition, so why not?


Yeah... I hope not. Not to mention the styles of play would be really different between those armies. The big annoyance with Guard is that it just sits still and shoots a ton. But I see effective Tyranids being loaded with shock assault en-masse. I can see the draw of putting IG artillery in there, but I'm not sure it will be worthwhile to spend the effort getting IG artillery, when the native Nid shooting is getting better.

And while Scions are nice and all, I think masses of Devilgaunts deep striking and potentially firing twice is going to pull its own weight.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 21:02:00


Post by: Dynas


Is anyone else seeing the value in Kraken. 3d6 advance. ON genestealers, brood lord, hormagaunts, already base 8" plus 3d6 +2d6 charge, thats a lot of range. Hormies can consolidate 6". You don't even need trygon tunnels. use those for your devil gaunts to shoot in the flanks.

Furthermore, you can fallback and RECHARGE the same turn, which means if your locked in combat, you can breakoff recharge and attack first.

Am i missing something.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 21:05:15


Post by: Niiai


Dynas wrote:
Is anyone else seeing the value in Kraken. 3d6 advance. ON genestealers, brood lord, hormagaunts, already base 8" plus 3d6 +2d6 charge, thats a lot of range. Hormies can consolidate 6". You don't even need trygon tunnels. use those for your devil gaunts to shoot in the flanks.

Furthermore, you can fallback and RECHARGE the same turn, which means if your locked in combat, you can breakoff recharge and attack first.

Am i missing something.


Yes, you are missing the stratagem:

'Stratagem: Opportunistic Advance (1CP)
Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movemnt characteristic.'

Particurarly good with genestealers small-arms-lead alergy.

Edit: Come to think of it. You people who debate the 2 x synapse networks:

How about: Kronos backline long range with a malanthrope for synapse.

But for the rest of your army use Kraken broodlords and genestealers. Those do not need synapse. Sounds like fun. :-)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 21:24:59


Post by: Traceoftoxin


It's 3d6 pick the highest, not 3d6.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 21:29:15


Post by: Zimko


Dynas wrote:
Is anyone else seeing the value in Kraken. 3d6 advance. ON genestealers, brood lord, hormagaunts, already base 8" plus 3d6 +2d6 charge, thats a lot of range. Hormies can consolidate 6". You don't even need trygon tunnels. use those for your devil gaunts to shoot in the flanks.

Furthermore, you can fallback and RECHARGE the same turn, which means if your locked in combat, you can breakoff recharge and attack first.

Am i missing something.


It's 3d6 and pick the highest.

With regards to allying IG, keep in mind that shadows in the warp affects non-tyranids.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 21:35:51


Post by: Niiai


Then I misunderstood you Dynas. I asumed you had the choose hieghest as implisit in your reasoning.

stil good though. An averadge threath range of 25" on a genestealer.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:05:41


Post by: Marmatag


I just made life decision level mistakes getting some new bugs, and equal numbers of custom resin bases. Rebasing is worth it if you're spending 15 minutes in the movement phase every turn.

Also, I didn't mean to open pandora's box regarding guard in the list. It's just a pain point for me since I do not want to play imperial guard, like at all. I'll leave it alone.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:25:54


Post by: Amishprn86


One thing i'm really liking is the Ignore Invul HVC relic.

D6 S9 3D shots that Ignore Invuls, on Kronos so you dont move and get re-rolls of 1. Meaning you are 2+ re-roll 1's, us a CP to get 4+ shots and say "bye bye Mortarion/Magnus"

I like Biovores, and having a Kronos Tyrant in back helping them with a gun like that for Psychic support and a Malanthrope.

My idea was dedicated shooting that basically ignore all armor and Invuls with insane DSing melee and turn 1 charge support.

I think i'm doing 2 HT now.... they keep getting better and better, 24 S6 shots, flying, if takes wound +1T and -1 to damage.

IDK, so many options i want to do now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:32:31


Post by: luke1705


 Amishprn86 wrote:
One thing i'm really liking is the Ignore Invul HVC relic.

D6 S9 3D shots that Ignore Invuls, on Kronos so you dont move and get re-rolls of 1. Meaning you are 2+ re-roll 1's, us a CP to get 4+ shots and say "bye bye Mortarion/Magnus"

I like Biovores, and having a Kronos Tyrant in back helping them with a gun like that for Psychic support and a Malanthrope.

My idea was dedicated shooting that basically ignore all armor and Invuls with insane DSing melee and turn 1 charge support.

I think i'm doing 2 HT now.... they keep getting better and better, 24 S6 shots, flying, if takes wound +1T and -1 to damage.

IDK, so many options i want to do now.


How are you hitting on 2's? Even our hive tyrants have a BS of 3+.

And I mean, don't get me wrong that's pretty good against most things, but it's only -1 AP. So Mortarion and Magnus are taking a 4+ armor save. For Magnus, that is substantially worse than a 3++ re-rolling 1's, but for Mortarion, that's just the same thing as his 4++. No actual difference.

I like the hive tyrants for dakka that can't be alpha struck, but they're a lot more expensive than Carnifex. I'm thinking maybe I just grab 3 Carnifex instead of 2 Flyrants....plus I don't think I want to do Gorgon, which is the only way to get that +1 T relic. Making the hive tyrant T8 is REALLY nice though. And I guess their 4++ and more wounds is better than the carnifex....hmm will have to think on that one. On the down side, they do degrade and likely aren't -1 to hit...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:35:54


Post by: Niiai


Is it just me who is in love with the heavy venom cannon? Tyrants and fexes. Does not this make carnifexes the best dreadnought?

Luke: The T8 tyrant. You can combine it with tyrant guards. Have them move up and then drop him into them. If you invest in your T8 tyrant there is a stratgem that heals it for 1d3 if you are invested in it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:39:42


Post by: Amishprn86


 luke1705 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
One thing i'm really liking is the Ignore Invul HVC relic.

D6 S9 3D shots that Ignore Invuls, on Kronos so you dont move and get re-rolls of 1. Meaning you are 2+ re-roll 1's, us a CP to get 4+ shots and say "bye bye Mortarion/Magnus"

I like Biovores, and having a Kronos Tyrant in back helping them with a gun like that for Psychic support and a Malanthrope.

My idea was dedicated shooting that basically ignore all armor and Invuls with insane DSing melee and turn 1 charge support.

I think i'm doing 2 HT now.... they keep getting better and better, 24 S6 shots, flying, if takes wound +1T and -1 to damage.

IDK, so many options i want to do now.


How are you hitting on 2's? Even our hive tyrants have a BS of 3+.

And I mean, don't get me wrong that's pretty good against most things, but it's only -1 AP. So Mortarion and Magnus are taking a 4+ armor save. For Magnus, that is substantially worse than a 3++ re-rolling 1's, but for Mortarion, that's just the same thing as his 4++. No actual difference.

I like the hive tyrants for dakka that can't be alpha struck, but they're a lot more expensive than Carnifex. I'm thinking maybe I just grab 3 Carnifex instead of 2 Flyrants....plus I don't think I want to do Gorgon, which is the only way to get that +1 T relic. Making the hive tyrant T8 is REALLY nice though. And I guess their 4++ and more wounds is better than the carnifex....hmm will have to think on that one. On the down side, they do degrade and likely aren't -1 to hit...


I meant BS 3+ sorry onlying missing on 2's is pretty darn good.

Also DSing with a 4++ 12 Wounds and Psychic powers is worth the cost i feel.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:44:24


Post by: Marmatag


Be careful you're not crossing your tactics and relics.

Some of the traits you mentioned are Gorgon, with Kronos tactics, and I think Hydra relics.

That said, my core list will have:

Battalion
30x Hormagants
30x Hormagants
30x Dakkagants
1x Swarmlord
1x Flying Hive Tyrant

Spearhead
1x Trygon
1x Tyrannofex
1x 2xCarnifex
1x Neurothrope

I honestly have enough points to make a supreme command and spam some smite, too.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 22:51:20


Post by: Amishprn86


 Marmatag wrote:
Be careful you're not crossing your tactics and relics.

Some of the traits you mentioned are Gorgon, with Kronos tactics, and I think Hydra relics.

That said, my core list will have:

Battalion
30x Hormagants
30x Hormagants
30x Dakkagants
1x Swarmlord
1x Flying Hive Tyrant

Spearhead
1x Trygon
1x Tyrannofex
1x 2xCarnifex
1x Neurothrope

I honestly have enough points to make a supreme command and spam some smite, too.


I'll most likely do 3 Fleets and Detachments. Now its just what works best for me, lots of play testing.....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 23:23:04


Post by: Marmatag


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Be careful you're not crossing your tactics and relics.

Some of the traits you mentioned are Gorgon, with Kronos tactics, and I think Hydra relics.

That said, my core list will have:

Battalion
30x Hormagants
30x Hormagants
30x Dakkagants
1x Swarmlord
1x Flying Hive Tyrant

Spearhead
1x Trygon
1x Tyrannofex
1x 2xCarnifex
1x Neurothrope

I honestly have enough points to make a supreme command and spam some smite, too.


I'll most likely do 3 Fleets and Detachments. Now its just what works best for me, lots of play testing.....


What're you thinking?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 23:35:14


Post by: Lance845


 luke1705 wrote:
The whole “allies doesn’t belong in this thread” talk is hopefully something that doesn’t become a sticking point like it did early in 8th.

There is no “right place” for Tyranids + GSC + AM. I get the idea that maybe GSC is the best place because they’re the linking faction, but imperial soup players have the same problem, as do Chaos soup players.

If you have something to add about the tactics involved, by all means do. If you don’t, please just bear with the people who actually would like to discuss those tactics, as saying “go to the other thread” is just going to make them post over there, where other people will want to say the same thing. Allies are a valid choice whether you want to be a purist or not.

Interestingly, what is probably going to turn me away from Nids + AM is the 3 source limit (for most competitive events) at 2k.

I like Leman Russes as much as the next guy, but pound for pound (relative points, durability and offensive output), the dakkafex isn’t that much worse. If the tank commander is an 9/10 infantry killer, then the dakkafex is like a 7.5 or 8/10. I think having Hive Fleet flexibility for shooty units vs assaulty units is more important. Now, if you mean the plasma tank commanders, different story. But exocrines with boosted damage and re-rolling 1’s to hit....I’m really not all that sad. Hive guard shooting twice is really good. Re-rolling 1’s to hit.

I think anything Guard can do, we can do pretty well. Except bring 5+ save models for 3 points. Womp.


Im not opposed to talking soup tactics here as long as tyranids are actually a relevent part of the soup. But if your army is primarily guard or lime 90% guard/gsc then what relevance does your 2-3 nid units really have?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/01 23:37:34


Post by: C4790M


I’m going to be aiming for a brigade in most of my lists, those stratagems are all just too juicy. Thinking something like this:

Kraken fleet

HQ
Hive Tyrant
Broodlord
Old One Eye

Troops
Mix of Stealers, Horms, Devilgants and Rippers

Elites
Lictors

FA
Gargoyles

HS
Biovores
Dakkafexes

A very melee heavy list, relying on the winged stuff to get in their face T1, lictors to provide a spawn point for the genestealers to get a potential alpha strike. Kraken trait and stratagem lets me get my gants up the board quick for a second wave, along with old one eye and his posse.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 00:08:50


Post by: Timeshadow


For my Hive Fleet Psythe (Psychic Scythe) I'm thinking a strong Kronos influence for my Hive tyrants and backfield guns with a sprinkling of Behemoith for my first striking genestealers ect so they can re roll assault.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 00:19:36


Post by: Jackal


Looks like I can finally bring my 2nd edition tyranid army out of retirement after years now.
While it's locked to options mostly due to being old models, it's still viable I guess.
Will be fun seeing a 100% metal army used again too as I love it, but until now it's been largely unusable due to having to spam certain newer units previously.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 00:47:42


Post by: Niiai


Timeshadow wrote:
For my Hive Fleet Psythe (Psychic Scythe) I'm thinking a strong Kronos influence for my Hive tyrants and backfield guns with a sprinkling of Behemoith for my first striking genestealers ect so they can re roll assault.


Are you running them? Would not a bigger tyreath range be better then the re-roll?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 00:59:33


Post by: luke1705


Ok so let's talk about Hive Fleets. I'm having difficulty figuring out which ones to use (except for Kronos. Re-rolling 1's when stationary and the psychic denial is just way too good right now)

In my dreams, I can have a Kronos detachment (probably a spearhead but hopefully a battalion) PLUS a brigade of something else.

BUT WHAT ELSE?

I do like GSC for their alternate deployment options, but I really want to benefit from these awesome hive fleet adaptions!

In my dreams, I would have a perfect deep strike/alternative deployment list, where nothing is on the table that can be targeted except for screening units and backline gun units like exocrines/hive guard.

So clearly, Jormungdr is less beneficial for the first turn alpha strike protection (since they would be in reserve) but to ditch the Trygon taxi, I think I have to use that hive fleet for the alternate deployment CP for my gene stealers. But having that cover is really important for later turns. I just don't see it benefitting Genestealers very much because they're almost always making a charge move/advancing, or both.

I think Kraken is a great option if my units start on the board. You're not protected from the alpha strike, but you move SO FREAKING FAST. That plus swarmy means that you MOST CERTAINLY are where you want to be. Always. And it has the added benefit of being able to fall back and charge, so if you can manage to tie yourself up, then you're really cooking for the next turn! My worry is that you have to completely surround a model, and then not kill that model (which is a problem since the opponent chooses which models to remove).

Behemoth speaks for itself. I think it is the "I want to deep strike and make a 9" charge" army. Or just generally make longer charges. But I struggle to see this working out in light of all of the screening units. If I kill the screening unit, then re-rolling my charge distance isn't really that important. And usually, the screening unit isn't worth as much as my unit.

What do you guys think? How are you getting your bugs to the action? Even with a good shooting backline (exocrines, hive guard, biovores, carnifex, etc) I feel like we really have so much stuff that can (and should) get up in the opponent's face.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 01:33:58


Post by: Timeshadow


Well my armies so far have generally consisted of a forward deapstrike force and a rear artillery force.

Forward force is all my deepstrikers 1st turn assaulters such as Swarmlord, Genestealers, Trygon/Prime, Tyrannocytes ect... This will have the reroll charge adaptation

Rear force would be my biovores, exocrene, Malanthrope, Hive guard...Though now I'm going to include at least one Hive Tyrant or nerothrope warlord to get the sweet anti psyker action from Kronos.

I may add a third hive fleet to get the extra resilience of cover for my bubble wrap and for more options but it depends on wether I have the points for it or not.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 02:12:55


Post by: pinecone77


Well I am really liking the mega anti psycher Fleet. I may go with a Supreme command of 3 Winged tyrants with a Relic or two.....just might take a myasma cannon. Swooping down on a smite spam AM...that seems like a very nice afternoon.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 02:15:47


Post by: Traceoftoxin


One thing I keep seeing people misunderstanding (Not in this thread, specifically) is basic charge, pile in and consolidate rules, and how these apply to Hormagaunts. I've made some pics to illustrate the strength of the 6" pile in.

Spoiler:














Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 02:18:22


Post by: pinecone77


The world serpent fleet looks like an amazing beta striker...Venothropes give -1 to hit, Jormungandr gives always cover...sturdy!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 03:02:42


Post by: Insectum7


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
One thing I keep seeing people misunderstanding (Not in this thread, specifically) is basic charge, pile in and consolidate rules, and how these apply to Hormagaunts. I've made some pics to illustrate the strength of the 6" pile in.

Spoiler:














That is really nicely done, and could be required reading for assault armies. Thanks for the effort. A+


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 04:00:48


Post by: Marmatag


That illustration is great and really highlights why Hormagants are worth it in 8th edition.

It's also worth remembering that 20 genestealers = 240 points... 60 hormagants = 300 points.

Hormagants are the more flexible unit. Genstealers are super vulnerable to beta strike, or fall back shoot.

Genestealers are a great unit, to be sure. But I can't imagine a tyranids list without hormagants.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 04:09:57


Post by: Lance845


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
One thing I keep seeing people misunderstanding (Not in this thread, specifically) is basic charge, pile in and consolidate rules, and how these apply to Hormagaunts. I've made some pics to illustrate the strength of the 6" pile in.

Spoiler:














If you don't mind i would like to add this to the op when the codex drops and it gets changed to reflect tactics. Would you mind PMing me however you would like it set up and i will get it on there for the good of all.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 04:17:41


Post by: Jin


So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 04:23:37


Post by: jifel


 Jin wrote:
So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



It is cheaper to buy a malanthrope. If you (understandably) want the larger coverage, it is cheaper to buy two malanthropes. There is nothing else to say.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 06:06:38


Post by: Lance845


 jifel wrote:
 Jin wrote:
So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



It is cheaper to buy a malanthrope. If you (understandably) want the larger coverage, it is cheaper to buy two malanthropes. There is nothing else to say.


Yup. A degrading shround on not particularly tough or fast models or shroud and synapse on a 9 wound character.

Il take the one that cant be targetted please.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 08:02:57


Post by: Sim-Life


 jifel wrote:
 Jin wrote:
So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



It is cheaper to buy a malanthrope. If you (understandably) want the larger coverage, it is cheaper to buy two malanthropes. There is nothing else to say.


Do we know if Venomthropes are still the same points?
Also we don't know if Malanthropes will still stay as cheap as they are after Chapter Approved comes out.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 08:04:24


Post by: Niiai


They are not cheap. They are often 90 points for only -1 for a few units. Their movement is bad.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 08:15:23


Post by: Amishprn86


I dont like Venomthropes, even if the Malanthrope is 110pts i would still take it over Venomthropes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 08:17:25


Post by: Lance845


 Sim-Life wrote:
 jifel wrote:
 Jin wrote:
So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



It is cheaper to buy a malanthrope. If you (understandably) want the larger coverage, it is cheaper to buy two malanthropes. There is nothing else to say.


Do we know if Venomthropes are still the same points?
Also we don't know if Malanthropes will still stay as cheap as they are after Chapter Approved comes out.


If you think chapter approved is going to mention anything forgeworld I think your out of your mind. GW proper never, NEVER, acknowledges that FW exists.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 11:32:05


Post by: Cephalobeard


GW stated it will include FW adjustments.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 11:57:51


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Lance845 wrote:

If you don't mind i would like to add this to the op when the codex drops and it gets changed to reflect tactics. Would you mind PMing me however you would like it set up and i will get it on there for the good of all.


Feel free to just quote it or whatever is easiest.

I made it to be distributed, please use it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 13:20:15


Post by: Bremon


I will say I must be counted among the “don’t understand pile in and consolidation” group, so thank you for the demonstration Traceoftoxin. Coming back to this edition I do miss a lot of the illustrations the 3rd edition book had.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 14:01:18


Post by: Amishprn86


Each "unit" follows the Fight phase rules, on page 182

You pick 1 unit and follow these steps for that 1 unit, if you have 2 units against the same enemy, only 1 can pile in and that same one can only consolidate.

Your 1st unit Piles in, fights, then Consolidates. If that unit died the 2nd unit doesnt get to do anything at all. If that unit did not die, then you 2nd unit can Fight... "pile in, fight, consolidate"

Each phase is a VERY strick and has a list what you can and cant do and each of these "Actions" is only for "1 unit at a time"

The one unit has to fully resolve the step before another unit can.

Note* Your allowed to Consolidate into another combat, you can not fight again "Unless you have a rule that lets you" BUT the enemy can fight you still. Remember you can fight anyone your within 1" of in the fight phaes as long as A: You didnt fight yet and B: If you charged for that turn you can only fight those you target for a charge.
Note 2* You can multi-charge, even with 1 model unit, as long as you can get within 1" of the multiple units you are counted as being in combat with them, if not move to the unit you can get into combat with, but they get to fire overwatch fora ll units that are not in combat, and can fire it unlimited amount of times, so if you fail they can shoot again.

So Hormagants has a 6" consolidate, that means they can tie up other units about 7" away (you only need to get within 1") but remember you have to "move closer to the closest enemy unit" and not in any direction you want.


It you still are confused, look up Miniwargaming video of 8th combat rules.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 14:14:59


Post by: Bremon


That’s quite clear, thank you. I just didn’t really apply any strategic thought to the ways you could legally throw wrenches into your opponents plans with consolidations is the crux of my problem lol.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 14:32:16


Post by: Amishprn86


Yep, its a tactic they want in the game to punish poor placements.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 14:51:02


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Amish, remember charging units can always activate, even if the unit the charged is already dead!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:02:27


Post by: Amishprn86


Yeah, the fight phase is the most craziest for sure, easy to miss a detail here or there.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:06:44


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Absolutely. I've had to check it a bunch of times since the edition dropped. Just now starting to get it down pat.

So many old charging rules I've had to forget.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:23:01


Post by: Jin


Preview of strategems are up.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:32:29


Post by: N.I.B.


 jifel wrote:
 Jin wrote:
So what're folks' thoughts on the Venomthropes?

Assuming the rumors are correct, seems like it'll be ~93 points for a min sized unit that at least starts off giving all your units the Shrouds. The extended range on a 6-strong unit seems sort of appealing....but it also seems like a really quick way to be back down to the 3" range.



It is cheaper to buy a malanthrope. If you (understandably) want the larger coverage, it is cheaper to buy two malanthropes. There is nothing else to say.

I've seen a big point increase hinted for the Malanthrope. But you have at least a month to enjoy the cheap ones.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:43:11


Post by: shogun


I've have been thinking about the following list:

Command detachment
HQ: Hive tyrant with deathspitters
HQ: Hive tyrant with deathspitters
HQ: Hive tyrant with deathspitters

Battalion Detachment
HQ: Hive tyrant with deathspitters
HQ: Hive tyrant with deathspitters

HQ: swarmlord
TRANSPORT: tyrannocyte

ELITE: tyrant guard x5
TRANSPORT: tyrannocyte

TROOPS: rippers
TROOPS: rippers
TROOPS: rippers
TROOPS: rippers

HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore

Using the +1 coversave ymargl bla bla....

Deploy the rippers and biovores. The rest drops out of the sky with the tyrant guards in the middle with a 2+ save and catalyst if it works. Don't play a lot of tournaments that allow forgeworld but I could switch a single tyrant with a malanthrope + tyrannocyte. Could also switch the biovores with regular spore mines so that the could deploy outside 12 inch of the enemy to make sure the mark a nice drop spot for the tyrant bomb. would like to try this...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:46:56


Post by: Lance845


I was going to say any tank heavy list would eat you up.... but nevermind. You have smite spam.

But I still think a vehicle heavy list is going to cause you a lot of problems.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:49:07


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Devourers are superior on every target except T7 3+, and there they're very close. Though with Variance they have a decent chance to overperform and be superior.

+1 cover doesn't work on stuff with fly.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:50:56


Post by: Dionysodorus


Not that a 2+ save is a huge deal for Tyrants, since they're now T8 with a 4++. It's going to be pretty rare that you're not just taking the invuln save. You only really miss it vs Guilliman assault cannons, I think.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:52:55


Post by: Lance845


Traceoftoxin wrote:Devourers are superior on every target except T7 3+, and there they're very close. Though with Variance they have a decent chance to overperform and be superior.

+1 cover doesn't work on stuff with fly.


He never specified a hive fleet. I assume he was deepstriking the tyrants wing wings.

Dionysodorus wrote:Not that a 2+ save is a huge deal for Tyrants, since they're now T8 with a 4++. It's going to be pretty rare that you're not just taking the invuln save. You only really miss it vs Guilliman assault cannons, I think.


Tyrants are T7 not 8.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:54:52


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Lance845 wrote:

Tyrants are T7 not 8.

Oh, my bad. So bolters aren't basically ignorable after all with a 3+.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 15:58:18


Post by: Dynas


WIth the Kraken Fall back and Charge again, would taking devourers & Talons on things like Warriors, Raveners, Carnifex, HT be good. Say your locked in combat from a previous round, you can fall back 1" shoot your guns into the enemy. Then recharge and get to attack first once again.

Your getting the Devourer Assault 3 shots rather than just one extra attack for the extra pair of scything talons.

Also, I see Leviathan as basically army wide Feel No pain. yeah you have to be withing 6" of Synapse, but honestly when are you not. It says that the UNIT has to be within 6", then any wound taken can be saved. So even if you have a long line of say genestealers or hormies as long as any model in the unit is within 6" of a Synapse unit then any model gets the save. So if one of the models at the end of the lie is say 12" away from the actual model that gives synapse, his buddy that is closer passes it down the chain.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:08:54


Post by: Lance845


Dynas wrote:
WIth the Kraken Fall back and Charge again, would taking devourers & Talons on things like Warriors, Raveners, Carnifex, HT be good. Say your locked in combat from a previous round, you can fall back 1" shoot your guns into the enemy. Then recharge and get to attack first once again.

Your getting the Devourer Assault 3 shots rather than just one extra attack for the extra pair of scything talons.

Also, I see Leviathan as basically army wide Feel No pain. yeah you have to be withing 6" of Synapse, but honestly when are you not. It says that the UNIT has to be within 6", then any wound taken can be saved. So even if you have a long line of say genestealers or hormies as long as any model in the unit is within 6" of a Synapse unit then any model gets the save. So if one of the models at the end of the lie is say 12" away from the actual model that gives synapse, his buddy that is closer passes it down the chain.


The 6" is really restrictive, especially by turn 3 when you will have definitely suffered losses and especially if you intend to have any blobs charging into melee. Coupled with the fact that 6+ is the worst possible chance for success. Mostly I think it makes our syanpse creatures that much more durable. So in the full tyrant list as an example, yeah. Casues every model that matters is a 12w t7 3+ 4++ 6+++ monster.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:16:42


Post by: Marmatag




How exactly does the timing of this work?

It says use when they attempt to manifest a psychic power. To me, that implies a dice roll. So, they roll 2 dice, then you use this, and they select one of the dice? or reroll one dice?

I could see this playing out:

Eldar Player: I will attempt to cast Guide on this unit of Dark Reapers.
Tyranid Player: Okay. I will use a command point to force you to roll 1 dice.
Eldar Player: Okay then i'm not casting it.
Tyranid Player: Then i'm not spending my command point.
Eldar Player: Okay well then i'm going to cast Doom on your Swarmlord.
Tyranid Player: Fine. Since you're not casting Guide i'll use my stratagem to deny Doom.
Eldar Player: Okay. Now i'm casting Guide.
Tyranid Player: Wut? You already attempted it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:20:13


Post by: andysonic1


I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:22:02


Post by: Marmatag


 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.


But it says when they attempt. You can only attempt a power ONCE. So what constitutes an attempt? The declaration, or the dice roll?

This is not as simple as it seems.

If we can use this after the dice roll it's super powerful, because you won't do that unless they succeed.

Like the ruling on this dictates pretty much if I will have a Kronos supreme command running around or not. I have about 400 points of wiggle room built into my list waiting for the rest of the codex to drop.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:23:12


Post by: Cephalobeard


You're responding to them activating a unit. They don't get to go "lol jk", they already activated the unit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:31:28


Post by: Dynas


Friendly way...

Perhaps, have the player declare all the various psykic powers they will use. So, when they mention they want to cast guide, ask them if they want to cast any others b/c you have a strategem you want to use to effect one.

OR the competitive RAW way

"2. Make Psychic Test
A psyker can attempt to manifest a
psychic power they know by taking a
Psychic test. To do so, roll 2D6. If the
total is equal to or greater than that
power’s warp charge value, the power is
successfully manifested. A psyker cannot
attempt to manifest the same psychic
power more than once in a turn."

The attempt stats the roll the way I see it.
Note, you can still get your deny the witch test, which should be much easier to stop.
Also, it looks like if you do this there is no way for enemy to suffer perils of the warp.

This probably needs to be FAQ, like we get to pick the lesser die after the roll or something.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:34:16


Post by: Asmodai


 Marmatag wrote:
 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm not sure I see what the issue is with that scenario? It's all a mind game: when will your opponent use this stratagem and what powers can you use before they use it or to bait it out.


But it says when they attempt. You can only attempt a power ONCE. So what constitutes an attempt? The declaration, or the dice roll?

This is not as simple as it seems.

If we can use this after the dice roll it's super powerful, because you won't do that unless they succeed.

Like the ruling on this dictates pretty much if I will have a Kronos supreme command running around or not. I have about 400 points of wiggle room built into my list waiting for the rest of the codex to drop.



Strategems interrupt the normal flow of play. At the point the strategem is used, the opponent has already chosen the Psyker and the Power to be cast (part 1 of the Psychic Sequence). Part 2 is attempting the power - but the choice of psyker and power has already been confirmed at that stage.

Eldar Player: I chose this Farseer to attempt to cast Guide on this unit of Dark Reapers.
Tyranid Player: Okay. I use a command point to force you to roll 1 dice.
*Eldar Player rolls one die*

Same as if a player declares a charge and their opponent uses a strategem to boost overwatch. The first player doesn't then get to renege and charge a different unit. Or if I declare my shots going against a Guard squad, and they spend the CP to Go to Ground, I wouldn't be allowed to take back my previous declaration and shoot at a different squad.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:35:04


Post by: Marmatag


That's the point, as defined, attempting a power includes rolling the dice. If they didn't roll the dice they didn't attempt the power. Any rules lawyer could argue this easily. And this will happen in a tournament until FAQ'd.

But at the same time it's impossible to roll one dice without a reroll of the test, as it doesn't say "select one dice," but this has no mention of a reroll.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:35:09


Post by: Dionysodorus


It seems pretty clear to me. When they say they're going to attempt Guide, you interrupt before they roll the dice and say you're using that stratagem. Then instead of rolling 2 dice they roll 1. There's no plausible reading of it where they've already rolled 2 dice and then they pick 1 -- it says that when they make the psychic test they roll 1 dice. Once they say they're attempting the power they're committed, though in a friendly game obviously you're going to let someone take back something like that if they just didn't realize the stratagem existed.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:40:26


Post by: Marmatag


Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:43:36


Post by: andysonic1


 Marmatag wrote:
Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.
See:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're responding to them activating a unit. They don't get to go "lol jk", they already activated the unit.
This is a pretty cut and dry issue. If your opponent tries to be silly about it than they are trying to cheat you.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:43:38


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Marmatag wrote:
Yes but they can only roll one dice, doesn't mean they have to.

They can walk away from using that power on that psyker, and just do that power with another psyker.

Okay you interrupted guide. This guy can only use 1 dice. So he won't. Someone else will use 2.

I really can't imagine that interpretation flying with any reasonable arbiter -- there's no indication anywhere in the rules that you're able to decide that you're attempting a psychic power and then walk away, and a precondition for using the stratagem is that the power is being attempted. No TO is going to allow that. I mean, sure, FAQ it, but there will only be like 3 people insisting on playing it that way.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:46:33


Post by: SideshowLucifer


Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:47:24


Post by: Marmatag


 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.


But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:53:44


Post by: Jacksmiles


 Marmatag wrote:
 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.


But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."


In a tournament setting, let them argue it all they want, and get a TO.

In a casual setting, ask to clarify what they're doing, then respond - don't let them walk it back after that. If you ask "So you're casting X?" and they say "Well, let me think" then you don't tell them you're using it yet. If they say "Yeah, I'm doing that" then you say "Okay I'm using this stratagem." If they argue, you can say you asked and they answered, meaning they said they were doing it twice, or you can let them roll it back, it's up to you. I'll probably give my friends one freebie each, if they get really upset about it. But they won't.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:54:47


Post by: andysonic1


 Marmatag wrote:
 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Like every other stratagem that interrupts a declaration of intent, it can not be taken back.


But this doesn't specify intent. This specifies attempt. And until they roll the dice, rules as written, they haven't attempted anything.

So I don't want to get bogged down in this one. I agree the intent of the rule makes sense here, in that they declare the psyker and the power, and then you interrupt, and they are then compelled to use one dice to cast that power, and cannot go back on their declaration of the power. I get it, I feel that is the intent, too. But, as written, in a tournament setting, people will argue this. 100% guaranteed.

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."
If it's a casual game than you make the following face and go on with your day.
Spoiler:
I would wait to declare use of the Stratagem until my opponent was sure of what power they were going to cast.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:56:35


Post by: Dionysodorus


 Marmatag wrote:

In casual games, you'll need to be careful with this too.

How often do you hear: "I'm going to cast <this> on <that>." Then a pause. "No wait, i'm going to cast <this> on <them> instead." In a casual setting it would be very easy to say "i hadn't made up my mind, man."

But in a casual setting you should generally be very willing to let people take things back until dice get rolled. Like, it's very common for people to run into issues moving units where if they'd done things in a different order stuff would have worked out, and basically everyone will allow an adjustment there. In a casual game I'm (1) going to warn my opponent about the stratagem at the start of the game so that it doesn't catch them by surprise and also so they know not to just immediately roll a psychic test without giving me a chance to interrupt, and (2) if the psychic phase looks particularly complicated I'll probably just say "look I'm wanting to hold this stratagem for Doom so you can do everything else and then decide if you want to Smite with your Farseer's second power or try to make Doom on 1 dice".


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 16:56:41


Post by: Marmatag


In a casual setting I pretty much always let people change their minds, and I would inform them upfront that I'm going to use this stratagem in the game, and that they need to be explicit when they ultimately declare powers. When they pick up the dice and are about to roll them, that's when i get to respond.

Hopefully GW alters this writing to say when a power is declared but before dice are rolled, rather than attempted. Because declaring a psyker and a target should be sufficient to lock them in.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:05:08


Post by: Dynas


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/02/codex-tyranids-preview-stratagems/

I am liking that Causatic Blood stratagem. Suicide a cheap unit of hormies into a high value target. Let them get slaughtered. Deal out a bunch of wounds.
Get out of Synapse range and fail morale test to get even more mortal wounds.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:14:28


Post by: Lance845


Marmatag your wrong about the lack of clarity on this. The process for attempting to manifest a psychic power is very clear just like shooting. There is no mechanical "attempt" in the psychic phase. Any time a player attempts to manifest a power is the same as any player attempting to shoot. The whole process is the attempt.

-First you pick a unit you wish to manifest a power with and the power they wish to manifest (the powers themselves tell you to select a target).
-then you roll
-deny
-resolve

Just like shooting, you cannot "back out" once you have declared your targets you have to follow through.

The stratagem interrupts after step 1 and makes sure you have to roll 1 dice.


Example: Player 1: My librarian is going to attempt to manifest smite against your hive tyrant.

Player 2: I spend 1 CP for the deepest shadow.

Player 1: gak.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:15:57


Post by: Marmatag


The Tyranids are often thought of as a mindless swarm but, unfortunately for the galaxy, nothing could be further from the truth. Each Hive Tyrant is a genius commander, imbued with millennia of experience, and the Hive Mind commands the swarm with absolute discipline and control. Indeed, during the Battle of Macragge, the Swarmlord was able to outmanoeuvre Marneus Calgar, one of the Imperium’s greatest commanders.


Perhaps Marneus Calgar spent too much time discerning which missiles required him to take cover?

This feels almost Wardian in its writing.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:17:52


Post by: Traceoftoxin


I've played in plenty of tournaments (RTT and GT) where people back out just before they roll.

It's pretty standard.

Marma is right. Although the rule is patently clear, people will argue that they haven't rolled so their decision isn't made.

The counter to this is to tell them at the beginning of their psychic phase, "At some point I can spend a CP after you declare a psychic power, and make you roll only 1 dice. So, as soon as you declare a power, you're locked in, no going back. Make sure to think before you declare, because if you declare, and I say I'm countering, you cannot go back and change your mind".


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:19:32


Post by: Lance845


 Marmatag wrote:
The Tyranids are often thought of as a mindless swarm but, unfortunately for the galaxy, nothing could be further from the truth. Each Hive Tyrant is a genius commander, imbued with millennia of experience, and the Hive Mind commands the swarm with absolute discipline and control. Indeed, during the Battle of Macragge, the Swarmlord was able to outmanoeuvre Marneus Calgar, one of the Imperium’s greatest commanders.


Perhaps Marneus Calgar spent too much time discerning which missiles required him to take cover?

This feels almost Wardian in its writing.


It's from the battle of Macragge. Not only did the swarmlord trounce him he also removed all his limbs and half his face, and the entire firs (and second?) company. Only reason Macragge still exists is some reinforcements showed up to the space fight and the ground forces were left unsupported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I've played in plenty of tournaments (RTT and GT) where people back out just before they roll.

It's pretty standard.

Marma is right. Although the rule is patently clear, people will argue that they haven't rolled so their decision isn't made.

The counter to this is to tell them at the beginning of their psychic phase, "At some point I can spend a CP after you declare a psychic power, and make you roll only 1 dice. So, as soon as you declare a power, you're locked in, no going back. Make sure to think before you declare, because if you declare, and I say I'm countering, you cannot go back and change your mind".


Well then those Tourneys are not actually following the rules. Once you declare what your doing your supposed to be doing it. It's like chess. You put your hand on the piece your moving that piece.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:27:03


Post by: Ratius


Can we take this to YMDC and get back to juicy Nid tactics?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:48:00


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Lance845 wrote:
Well then those Tourneys are not actually following the rules. Once you declare what your doing your supposed to be doing it. It's like chess. You put your hand on the piece your moving that piece.


Has nothing to do with tourneys. Has to do with being a good sport. If someone changes their mind before finishing an action, are you going to be the dick who tells them they have to do it? Gonna waste 15 minutes of a game to call a TO and force them to roll those dice or forfeit?

That's a great way to get a 0 on sportsmanship.

Marma was just pointing out that the typical sportsman like thing to do (Allow someone to change their decision before the dice roll) can be stretched to the point of problems.

No one is saying that a TO won't come over and tell them they have to roll a 1 dice if you argue it. We're just saying that unless you make it very clear what the order of operations is ahead of time, there is a good opportunity for a clash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aside;

Pathogenic slime does not have to be used before firing. RAW you could use it after you determine saves, then double the damage after they roll poorly.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 17:56:57


Post by: Lance845


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Well then those Tourneys are not actually following the rules. Once you declare what your doing your supposed to be doing it. It's like chess. You put your hand on the piece your moving that piece.


Has nothing to do with tourneys. Has to do with being a good sport. If someone changes their mind before finishing an action, are you going to be the dick who tells them they have to do it? Gonna waste 15 minutes of a game to call a TO and force them to roll those dice or forfeit?

That's a great way to get a 0 on sportsmanship.


Apply all those same arguments to Chess.

Is it bad sportsmanship to expect that people playing in a professional/strict environment keep their hands off their pieces unless they intend to use them? Or is it good sportsmanship to understand the consequences of your actions and follow through with them if you happen to have made a mistake.

Marma was just pointing out that the typical sportsman like thing to do (Allow someone to change their decision before the dice roll) can be stretched to the point of problems.

No one is saying that a TO won't come over and tell them they have to roll a 1 dice if you argue it. We're just saying that unless you make it very clear what the order of operations is ahead of time, there is a good opportunity for a clash.


The idea that the sporting thing to do is to be super nice and forgiving of all mistakes in what is supposed to be a tactical and strategic game is odd since it places NONE of the sportsmanship responsibility on the person who is making tactical errors. I am not saying how I would treat it. I am super forgiving in my games. I am saying good sportsmanship swings both ways and there should be no take-backsies if your playing in a truly sporting manner.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 18:00:58


Post by: Jin


Gents - please take discussion of 'take backs' or not to the appropriate sub-forum.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 18:01:37


Post by: Marmatag


edit - removed, will take it somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Pathogenic slime does not have to be used before firing. RAW you could use it after you determine saves, then double the damage after they roll poorly.


That is a good catch. I can't know if that is intended, but right now that makes it very, very good.

I can't see a tyranid list without a unit of dakkagants right now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 18:05:52


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


Welp, one of the heads for carns gives em BS3+. Also Genestealers can take either a powersword or fleshhooks for every four models in a unit.
Spoiler:



Edit: and apparently OOE is now 9 wounds
Edit again: I figured out how to do images!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 18:43:26


Post by: Zimko


 Marmatag wrote:
edit - removed, will take it somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Pathogenic slime does not have to be used before firing. RAW you could use it after you determine saves, then double the damage after they roll poorly.


That is a good catch. I can't know if that is intended, but right now that makes it very, very good.

I can't see a tyranid list without a unit of dakkagants right now.


Can't use it on gaunts. Only monsters.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 18:46:39


Post by: pinecone77


I'm looking foward to using Caustic Blood Termagants to screen Berzerkers..... Add in Leviathan for lol...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:01:39


Post by: Marmatag


 Zimko wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
edit - removed, will take it somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Pathogenic slime does not have to be used before firing. RAW you could use it after you determine saves, then double the damage after they roll poorly.


That is a good catch. I can't know if that is intended, but right now that makes it very, very good.

I can't see a tyranid list without a unit of dakkagants right now.


Can't use it on gaunts. Only monsters.



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Still Dakkafex is 24 shots. A good use case.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:09:24


Post by: D6Damager


So, looks like Kronos Tyranids are more effective vs. Chaos Daemons than Grey Knights?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:15:35


Post by: Lance845


 D6Damager wrote:
So, looks like Kronos Tyranids are more effective vs. Chaos Daemons than Grey Knights?


It makes sense. Grey Knights are ultimately just a product of the engineering of the imperium of man. Tyranids are purpose built on a genetic level to be bad news for chaos. The shadow wrecks them. They don't have souls for them to corrupt. And now they have adapted an entire hive fleet for the sole purpose of not putting up with their gak. No amount of equipment or training is going to help the grey knights do what the tyranids are literally adapted and bred to do.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:22:42


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


Here's some of the Stratagems:
Spoiler:


 D6Damager wrote:
So, looks like Kronos Tyranids are more effective vs. Chaos Daemons than Grey Knights?

I mean nids have full biologic mastery of themselves. Being a Psyker is a genetic thing so of course they can really mess with the warp. Not to mention there mere presence cast the shadow.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:23:00


Post by: str00dles1


Not really tactics, but did anyone grab the link to the new hive fleet colors? I swore I saw an article from warhammer community on Kronos colors etc but now I cant find it...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:26:32


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


str00dles1 wrote:
Not really tactics, but did anyone grab the link to the new hive fleet colors? I swore I saw an article from warhammer community on Kronos colors etc but now I cant find it...

Spoiler:

Apparently I already had my GSC painted up Kronos style. Even had them fluffed up to be Psyker heavy so that's just gravy.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:35:12


Post by: Overread


Is that a new gun in the hands of the Chronos warrior or just a creative take on the venom cannon


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:37:08


Post by: shogun



Lance845 wrote: He never specified a hive fleet. I assume he was deepstriking the tyrants wing wings.


I did. Remade the list. Don't know how i'm going to 'tool' the hive tyrants but most likely shootie.

Command detachment KRAKEN
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (shooting)
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (shooting)
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (shooting)

Command Detachment KRAKEN
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (shooting)
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (shooting)
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)

Spearhead detachment JORMUNGANDR

HQ: Swarmlord
TRANSPORT: tyrannocyte

ELITE: tyrant guard x5
TRANSPORT: tyrannocyte

HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 biovore

Lance845 wrote:I was going to say any tank heavy list would eat you up.... but nevermind. You have smite spam.

But I still think a vehicle heavy list is going to cause you a lot of problems.


If the Hive tyrants can surpass the bubble wrap and get in close combat with the vehicles then the can force them to 'fall back' and unable to shoot.

I might just remove the swarmlord and replace him with a malanthrope + another flying hive tyrant. Dunno, got the wait for the codex for the final details. But Hive tyrants that can smite, shoot, assault, fall back and repeat, are nice. I think that more and more enemy armies are going to add 'get of my lawn' units. Units that deploy in the field or 'scout' forward and push back the 'deep strike' bubble.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:37:44


Post by: Zimko


 Overread wrote:
Is that a new gun in the hands of the Chronos warrior or just a creative take on the venom cannon


Might be the relic cannon that ignores invulnerable saves


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 19:42:36


Post by: Marmatag


I don't like any of those color schemes at all.

I'll probably do the usual bone coloring, seraphim sepia on white, with blue (macragge blue) backing. Hive fleet <Aquafina> lol


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 20:16:46


Post by: Dynas


I kinda like the Black yellow but not a fan of the others. Kronus looks a lot like Kraken to me.

@ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 20:25:48


Post by: Niiai


I like the colours schemes.

Hydra is a homage to the original tyranid. I love that.

Both Gorgon and Jormundgandir looks veyr much like old forge world tyranid colour schemes. Lots of brown and orange.

Kronos is the new kid on the block. But bold red and alpha legion blue with black. Looks sweet.

Rrrrrr.....

So how about those Carnifex heads?

I asume bone head = old on eye.

But tusk is one more attack on the turn you charge. In aditional to the other charge bonuses.

Acid maw is -5 AP S User and 1d3 damage. The damage is a bit disapointing. But S6 is a bit low. Good vs marines?

Screamer killer head is plasma head.

Enchanted sences is BS 3+

Is enchanted sences always the include if I wanne go shooting fexes?

What are people opinions on the carpaces? The one that shoots, or the one that makes it harder to shoot.

Is the way to do carnifexes dakka with venom cannon, enchanted sences and hard to hit?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 21:13:09


Post by: Marmatag


My thought would be, you should envision how you're going to use your 'fex.

If go with a dakkafex, it's ideal position will be at near maximum range. I'll have the BS3+ upgrade on it, so i can drop him out of synapse and take the hit penalty, or advance him and shoot with 4+.

With that in mind, the hard to hit upgrade makes logical sense. If i was building a close-range fex, I would probably opt for the plasma upgrade, because you'll be in range to use it, and the best defense is a good offense.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 21:17:29


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 21:45:52


Post by: Marmatag


Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


I would infer that no, you cannot, because my guess will be that it will have a line that mentions when it says Tyranids they mean specifically something with the <Hive Fleet> keyword. Similar to how "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems can't be used by Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 21:55:15


Post by: gigasnail


 Marmatag wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


I would infer that no, you cannot, because my guess will be that it will have a line that mentions when it says Tyranids they mean specifically something with the <Hive Fleet> keyword. Similar to how "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems can't be used by Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels.


when it says <TYRANIDS> it means units with the <TYRANIDS> keyword, which GSC have. <HIVE FLEET> is more specific.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 21:59:53


Post by: dan2026


What melee weapons do you guys recommend for the Hive Tyrant?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 22:06:02


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


 Marmatag wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


I would infer that no, you cannot, because my guess will be that it will have a line that mentions when it says Tyranids they mean specifically something with the <Hive Fleet> keyword. Similar to how "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems can't be used by Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels.

Ya but, other factions properly specify. IG have <REGIMENT> and Eldar have <CRAFTWORLD> Keywords for stratagems. <TYRANIDS> mean the faction keyword which GSC have, and they have used <HIVEFLEET> for stuff like Synapse so there shouldnt be any confusion. It might not be their intent, but until they put out a FAQ it seems like fair game. (A Leman Russ regening like a fex seems silly but I can fluff it out as a Magus repairing it with his mind.)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 22:09:29


Post by: Marmatag


Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


I would infer that no, you cannot, because my guess will be that it will have a line that mentions when it says Tyranids they mean specifically something with the <Hive Fleet> keyword. Similar to how "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems can't be used by Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels.

Ya but, other factions properly specify. IG have <REGIMENT> and Eldar have <CRAFTWORLD> Keywords for stratagems. <TYRANIDS> mean the faction keyword which GSC have, and they have used <HIVEFLEET> for stuff like Synapse so there shouldnt be any confusion. It might not be their intent, but until they put out a FAQ it seems like fair game. (A Leman Russ regening like a Cran seems silly but I can fluff it out as a Magus repairing it with his mind.)


Well again we can't infer without seeing the book. My *guess* would be it will specifically say Tyranids to mean Jormungandr, Hydra, et al, specifically excluding genestealer cults.

They've done a fairly solid job drawing the lines between the vegetables in the soup so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dan2026 wrote:
What melee weapons do you guys recommend for the Hive Tyrant?


It's not possible to really say without seeing the costs and updated weapons, but a monstrous rending claw would be good to have for the rerolled wounds as it stands right now. With strength 6, you're going to be wounding ideal targets on 5s, so rerolling wounds effectively brings you up to a ~4+ to wound. Which is great for T8, meh for T7, and for T6 and below you're doing solid hurt.

of course you get more attacks with monstrous scything talons. equipping 2 pairs gets you to 6 attacks + the tail.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/02 22:19:19


Post by: Mr.Pengwinn


 Marmatag wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Mr.Pengwinn wrote:
Can I use the Tyranid Stratagems on GSC? They share the Tyranid Keyword so unless it specifies Hive Fleet or Monster I should be able to use it right? Rerolling wounds for a Patriarch or regen for a transport/russ sounds nice

@Niiai
I think I'd rather go for Deathspitters or Devouerers for my DakkaCarn but otherwise yeah that looks like the setup.


I would infer that no, you cannot, because my guess will be that it will have a line that mentions when it says Tyranids they mean specifically something with the <Hive Fleet> keyword. Similar to how "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems can't be used by Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels.

Ya but, other factions properly specify. IG have <REGIMENT> and Eldar have <CRAFTWORLD> Keywords for stratagems. <TYRANIDS> mean the faction keyword which GSC have, and they have used <HIVEFLEET> for stuff like Synapse so there shouldnt be any confusion. It might not be their intent, but until they put out a FAQ it seems like fair game. (A Leman Russ regening like a Cran seems silly but I can fluff it out as a Magus repairing it with his mind.)


Well again we can't infer without seeing the book. My *guess* would be it will specifically say Tyranids to mean Jormungandr, Hydra, et al, specifically excluding genestealer cults.

They've done a fairly solid job drawing the lines between the vegetables in the soup so far.

I suppose. I've yet to see <Hive Fleet> for a stratagem yet but have seen specific hive fleets mentioned in a stratagem like:
Spoiler:

Until we get the full book we can only speculate. It would be nice though. GSC need all the help they can get.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 00:35:13


Post by: C4790M


As its written, anything that specifies the Tyranid keyword also applies to GSC. Look at it similar to how Bobby G buffs both <Imperium> and <Ultramarines>. Some things, like synapse only apply to <Hive Fleet> and some, like a lot of the stratagems we’ve seen applies to <Tyranid>, which all tyranids and GSC have. Remember the GSC don’t have a subfaction <keyword>, they just have <Tyranid> and <Genestealer Cult>


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 03:06:35


Post by: Timeshadow


C4790M wrote:
As its written, anything that specifies the Tyranid keyword also applies to GSC. Look at it similar to how Bobby G buffs both <Imperium> and <Ultramarines>. Some things, like synapse only apply to <Hive Fleet> and some, like a lot of the stratagems we’ve seen applies to <Tyranid>, which all tyranids and GSC have. Remember the GSC don’t have a subfaction <keyword>, they just have <Tyranid> and <Genestealer Cult>


So using this logic this allows GSC to use Tyranid kw Stratagems and possibly even relics as well as their allied Guard to use Non regimental Stratagems and relics.
That sounds interesting.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 08:20:28


Post by: Spoletta


Hardly, i think that this is the same situation of the SM codex. They have the <Chapter> keyword and the adeptus astartes keyword. Theyr stratagems and relics RAW would apply also to Blood Angels since they share the Adeptus Astartes keyword, but they don't since in the codex it specifies that only the Adeptus Astartes from that book can benefit from it.
We could have an identical situation for tyranid keyword.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 09:08:41


Post by: C4790M


Spoletta wrote:
Hardly, i think that this is the same situation of the SM codex. They have the <Chapter> keyword and the adeptus astartes keyword. Theyr stratagems and relics RAW would apply also to Blood Angels since they share the Adeptus Astartes keyword, but they don't since in the codex it specifies that only the Adeptus Astartes from that book can benefit from it.
We could have an identical situation for tyranid keyword.


Ah, I was unaware of that exception. Ignore me then, that’s enough precedent to convince me.

It would be nice to have cult units following lictor pheromone trails as an ambush failsafe though


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 09:30:35


Post by: Lance845


C4790M wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Hardly, i think that this is the same situation of the SM codex. They have the <Chapter> keyword and the adeptus astartes keyword. Theyr stratagems and relics RAW would apply also to Blood Angels since they share the Adeptus Astartes keyword, but they don't since in the codex it specifies that only the Adeptus Astartes from that book can benefit from it.
We could have an identical situation for tyranid keyword.


Ah, I was unaware of that exception. Ignore me then, that’s enough precedent to convince me.

It would be nice to have cult units following lictor pheromone trails as an ambush failsafe though


Its the reason forgeworld forces like DKOK Elysians, red scorpions etc etc... don't get to use doctrines/chapter tactics. They are not armies that are a part of that codex so nothing from that codex applies to them.

On the pus side, when FW starts releasing 8th ed Imperial Armor books we may gain a Anphelion Hive Fleet with a new adaptation and some new relics, stratagems, and such instead of just the rules for the FW models.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 11:03:15


Post by: shogun


shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......


Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


ehhh yes I do..


I don't understand why tyranid players are so hyped up about the whole 'reroll charge' bonus (behemoth). Getting 3 tyranid units in close combat with the 'bubble wrap' conscripts instead of only one unit, doesn't make a difference. Bubble wrap dies or falls back and tyranids get shot in the face just like before.



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 11:04:49


Post by: Astmeister


shogun wrote:
shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......


Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


ehhh yes I do..


I don't understand why tyranid players are so hyped up about the whole 'reroll charge' bonus (behemoth). Getting 3 tyranid units in close combat with the 'bubble wrap' conscripts instead of only one unit, doesn't make a difference. Bubble wrap dies or falls back and tyranids get shot in the face just like before.



You are right. What is better, however, that conscripts got nerfed and Dakka-fexes and Dakka-Tyrants have 24 shots BS3+ now. This is all very good against bubble-wrap.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 12:34:40


Post by: luke1705


 Niiai wrote:
I like the colours schemes.


Is enchanted sences always the include if I wanne go shooting fexes?

What are people opinions on the carpaces? The one that shoots, or the one that makes it harder to shoot.

Is the way to do carnifexes dakka with venom cannon, enchanted sences and hard to hit?


Yes you can and always should do both. You can be shooty and be harder to hit. The only reason you would not take the -1 to hit is if you know for sure you'll have a Malanthrope babysitting them, but tbh I'd just rather they be able to be more mobile and autonomous for 10 points a fex. Furthermore, you can be jormungdr and be "in cover" always. That 2+ save fex is literally what we always wanted.


I'm still looking for a fex assault threat...but I just don't see it at str 6 with those talons. I think I'll just keep old one eye since he is un-targetable. Maybe a stone crusher would do the work. I think I take maybe 1 screamer killer fex with metabolic movement so that I can charge turn 2 for sure.

those dakka fexes are pretty hot right now. The ONLY thing stopping me from auto including 3 or more is that they're quite probably going to be out of range turn 1 if it's not Dawn of War deployment. But if you are able to fire at full efficiency on turn 1 somehow, they're the best shooting bargain in the entire codex (vs t3 and t4 anyhow). And tbh, with the volume of fire they put out, it's one of our best bets for walloping some of the bigger things. Yeah, they wound on 5's, but if you get some decent rolls...they fail 4 or 5 saves....suddenly BAM you double that damage and that's a big deal!

But for ultra competitive, I think I have to go with dakka flyrants for alpha strike mitigation. Having psychic powers helps too. And being able to always get within 12" of what you're likely shooting at (chaff units) is a big deal for some of the predominant armies with -1 to hit outside of 12"


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 13:02:17


Post by: Dynas


shogun wrote:
shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......


Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


ehhh yes I do..



But the Neurothrope is a different hive fleet, I didn't think synapse was universal. I think the synapse only provides to like minded hive fleets, maybe I am wrong. But, not having synapse for the Biovores isn't a bad thing, you get -2 to hit if you move and can spam spore mines.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 13:03:14


Post by: shogun


Astmeister wrote:
shogun wrote:
shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......


Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


ehhh yes I do..


I don't understand why tyranid players are so hyped up about the whole 'reroll charge' bonus (behemoth). Getting 3 tyranid units in close combat with the 'bubble wrap' conscripts instead of only one unit, doesn't make a difference. Bubble wrap dies or falls back and tyranids get shot in the face just like before.



You are right. What is better, however, that conscripts got nerfed and Dakka-fexes and Dakka-Tyrants have 24 shots BS3+ now. This is all very good against bubble-wrap.


Yea but that got nothing to do with the reroll charge bonus. in what shape or form, bubble wrap will always block the charge.

luke1705 wrote:

those dakka fexes are pretty hot right now. The ONLY thing stopping me from auto including 3 or more is that they're quite probably going to be out of range turn 1 if it's not Dawn of War deployment. But if you are able to fire at full efficiency on turn 1 somehow, they're the best shooting bargain in the entire codex (vs t3 and t4 anyhow). And tbh, with the volume of fire they put out, it's one of our best bets for walloping some of the bigger things. Yeah, they wound on 5's, but if you get some decent rolls...they fail 4 or 5 saves....suddenly BAM you double that damage and that's a big deal!

But for ultra competitive, I think I have to go with dakka flyrants for alpha strike mitigation. Having psychic powers helps too. And being able to always get within 12" of what you're likely shooting at (chaff units) is a big deal for some of the predominant armies with -1 to hit outside of 12"


I think you're right. In a competitive environment the carnifexes are not going to make a big difference. They're to slow for that and not being able to shoot first turn is a big price to pay. Deep strike dakka tyrant with 4+ inv and smite/psychic scream does a better job in my opinion.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 13:15:40


Post by: Dynas


Thoughts on taking this Brigade just for CP spam. Comes out 753 points, leaves you with 1250 ish for whatever you want. Just trying to make the cheapest list possible. Getting 9+3+X CP. Massive -1 for malanthrope, hold rippers underground to tunnel objectives. Spore mines for DS denial, Biovores are always solid choice. Lictor to DS/Disrupt enemy backline. Thoughts on this? What would we fill out with the remaining 1250?

HQ
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90

Troops
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33

Fast Attack
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30

Elites
Lictor-41
Lictor-41
Lictor-41

Heavy Support
Biovore -24
Biovore -24
Biovore -24





Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 13:50:38


Post by: Astmeister


Dynas wrote:
Thoughts on taking this Brigade just for CP spam. Comes out 753 points, leaves you with 1250 ish for whatever you want. Just trying to make the cheapest list possible. Getting 9+3+X CP. Massive -1 for malanthrope, hold rippers underground to tunnel objectives. Spore mines for DS denial, Biovores are always solid choice. Lictor to DS/Disrupt enemy backline. Thoughts on this? What would we fill out with the remaining 1250?

HQ
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90
Malanthrope -90

Troops
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33
Ripper Swarm x3 - 33

Fast Attack
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30
Spore Mine x3 -30

Elites
Lictor-41
Lictor-41
Lictor-41

Heavy Support
Biovore -24
Biovore -24
Biovore -24





The Neurothropes seem to be even cheaper with 70 points each as an HQ. And besides they can cast spells, so I would also switch either all Malanthropes or some for Neuros.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:07:07


Post by: luke1705


What I like best about Tyranids is that we can reserve almost anything we like, and that we have a lot of solid choices in every slot, so you don’t have to take things just because they’re cheap.

Grab some exocrines in the heavy slot, or a dakkafex or three. I’m not super sold on biovores, but I’ll certainly give them a shot to see how those mortal wounds stack up. Could really make or break a game against a primarch.

Lictors as elites I think are mandatory now, but I’ll probably run a Hive Guard unit to double fire (just not in my main Brigade). Does the deathleaper count as a “lictor” for the lictor Strat? might be worth running if so.

Flyrants are amazing HQ choices again with the ability to deep strike and with fly meaning they always fire at full effect, plus malanthropes and Broodlords are excellent too. The HQ section is actually pretty bloated.

Gargoyles are a beautiful deep striking unit. No, they won’t “tarpit” things, but if those things can’t fall back and shoot, that’s a real issue. And if you get lucky, maybe you can wrap around and lock yourself in combat. It’s a real nuisance unit for only 60 points.

Rippers are the penultimate objective grabbers. Hormagants are awesome. Nothing more needs to be said about Genestealers, and now they got even more adaptable. Even the devilgant with just a ton of shooting is much better since you can fire them twice.

The more I look at this, the more I think that Tyranids absolutely have a solid place in the competitive scene


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:14:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 luke1705 wrote:
What I like best about Tyranids is that we can reserve almost anything we like, and that we have a lot of solid choices in every slot, so you don’t have to take things just because they’re cheap.

Grab some exocrines in the heavy slot, or a dakkafex or three. I’m not super sold on biovores, but I’ll certainly give them a shot to see how those mortal wounds stack up. Could really make or break a game against a primarch.

Lictors as elites I think are mandatory now, but I’ll probably run a Hive Guard unit to double fire (just not in my main Brigade). Does the deathleaper count as a “lictor” for the lictor Strat? might be worth running if so.

Flyrants are amazing HQ choices again with the ability to deep strike and with fly meaning they always fire at full effect, plus malanthropes and Broodlords are excellent too. The HQ section is actually pretty bloated.

Gargoyles are a beautiful deep striking unit. No, they won’t “tarpit” things, but if those things can’t fall back and shoot, that’s a real issue. And if you get lucky, maybe you can wrap around and lock yourself in combat. It’s a real nuisance unit for only 60 points.

Rippers are the penultimate objective grabbers. Hormagants are awesome. Nothing more needs to be said about Genestealers, and now they got even more adaptable. Even the devilgant with just a ton of shooting is much better since you can fire them twice.

The more I look at this, the more I think that Tyranids absolutely have a solid place in the competitive scene

Totally. I think they have some really good internal balance too so that means we will have a variety of units showing up in competitive.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:18:17


Post by: Rivener


Am I crazy or is Implant Attack REALLY awesome? If you wound a model but fail to slay it, you roll a die and on a 2+ that model suffers a MW. Who needs AP when you can just MW any non-vehicles that makes a save, Armor or otherwise??


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:19:17


Post by: luke1705


Let's be real though. Tactically-speaking, all that really matters is that my Zoats will rise again. I mean, my hive guard.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:20:48


Post by: jifel


Rivener wrote:
Am I crazy or is Implant Attack REALLY awesome? If you wound a model but fail to slay it, you roll a die and on a 2+ that model suffers a MW. Who needs AP when you can just MW any non-vehicles that makes a save, Armor or otherwise??


Well, you don't successfully wound them unless they fail a save. But even then, it is only one mortal wound. So if a unit does 3 wounds to magnus in CC, you will do one more on a 2+. Unless you attack multiple multi-wound units you will never deal more than a single wound.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:21:20


Post by: Niiai


Zoats with shoot one more time stratagem will be good. Bith impaler and shock cannon.

So will 30 devilgaunts.

Perhaps even a group of warriors? Or some dakka raveners from reserves.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:28:03


Post by: str00dles1


Dynas wrote:
shogun wrote:
shogun wrote:
.....
HQ: Neurothrope (babysitting biovores)
.......


Dynas wrote: @ shogun, you have no synapse for your biovores.


ehhh yes I do..



But the Neurothrope is a different hive fleet, I didn't think synapse was universal. I think the synapse only provides to like minded hive fleets, maybe I am wrong. But, not having synapse for the Biovores isn't a bad thing, you get -2 to hit if you move and can spam spore mines.


Correct. Synapse doesent work on all nids, just that fleet. So no, he's not a babysitter


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:31:44


Post by: Xenomancers


How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:35:22


Post by: Rivener


 jifel wrote:
Rivener wrote:
Am I crazy or is Implant Attack REALLY awesome? If you wound a model but fail to slay it, you roll a die and on a 2+ that model suffers a MW. Who needs AP when you can just MW any non-vehicles that makes a save, Armor or otherwise??


Well, you don't successfully wound them unless they fail a save. But even then, it is only one mortal wound. So if a unit does 3 wounds to magnus in CC, you will do one more on a 2+. Unless you attack multiple multi-wound units you will never deal more than a single wound.


This could probably use a FAQ, because I just reread the rule book and it says you determine wounds and then determine saves. Which seems to indicate I could land five wounds on five marines, but they then save all five of them. The fight is now over, so I use Implant Attack and make a roll for each of the models wounded, but not slain. That’s all of them. So I roll five dice and inflict 5 MWs, killing off the marines entirely. Am I misreading the strategem?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:38:08


Post by: Zimko


Can the jorm strat be used for multiple units? For example, spend 3 CP and bring in 3 units of genestealers from raveners holes? And give those raveners 24 inch deathspitters.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 14:38:53


Post by: Dynas


 jifel wrote:
Rivener wrote:
Am I crazy or is Implant Attack REALLY awesome? If you wound a model but fail to slay it, you roll a die and on a 2+ that model suffers a MW. Who needs AP when you can just MW any non-vehicles that makes a save, Armor or otherwise??


Well, you don't successfully wound them unless they fail a save. But even then, it is only one mortal wound. So if a unit does 3 wounds to magnus in CC, you will do one more on a 2+. Unless you attack multiple multi-wound units you will never deal more than a single wound.


This. I looks good on paper, but the way multiwound model wound allocation works, your likely never to get more than 1 extra mortal wound unless you get some wierd multi unit With multiple wounds lock into combat. Perhaps if flanking genestealers were able to lock in a IG Tank gun line or a group of razorbacks, its possible but unlikely.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:08:03


Post by: Astmeister


 Xenomancers wrote:
How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.


Unfortunately it does not really help against some super psykers like Magnus, since he gets a +2 or +3 to cast anyway.
But I think that is will be really nasty against cheap smite spam lists.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:11:22


Post by: Traceoftoxin


@rivener is mostly correct. You allocate wounds BEFORE you roll saves,but people typically speed roll all their saves at once. This is technically incorrect, as you have no permission to speed roll saves, you must allocate, and save, them one at a time.

The problem is, if you allocate the wounds one at a time, and roll on the same model until it dies, you will never allocate to a model that doesn't die except the model that takes the last wound.

So, unless you multi-charge, you will only ever deal a single MW to any unit you wound with this.

GOOD NEWS, you don't need an unsaved wound for it to work, so, that's a little bit better.

Relevant rule;

If an attack
successfully wounds the target,
the player commanding the
target unit allocates the wound to
any model in the unit (the chosen
model does not have to be within
range or visible to the attacking
unit). If a model in the target
unit has already lost any wounds,
the damage must be allocated to
that model.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:12:53


Post by: Zimko


 Astmeister wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.


Unfortunately it does not really help against some super psykers like Magnus, since he gets a +2 or +3 to cast anyway.
But I think that is will be really nasty against cheap smite spam lists.


It still helps, how expensive is that warp time ability that allows him to move again? Even with +2, on 1 d6 he may not get ut. And if he does, you still have a decent chance at denying. If I can keep him from double moving or gaining +1 invul then that will be a big help.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:20:44


Post by: Xenomancers


Magnus is a super beast. He won't be completely shutdown by kronus but an army of warlocks or primaris pskyers will be. Vs normal HQ psykers they will basically have to not cast a power or accept a d3 mortal wound for the 1 dice attempt at something with -1 to cast (this will require a 6 for even the cheapest spells) Plus you will be able to deny a magnus super power a lot easier for 2 command points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:20:55


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Warptime is only 6, so he has a 50% (or 33% if in SITW) chance still, however we have a much better chance of denying, seeing as he's capped at on 1d6.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:21:20


Post by: Astmeister


 Zimko wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How disgusting is kronos going to be with their warlord trait plus strategem. So if they fail any test within 18 inches (it's always on) psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. They are already -1 to cast for shadow in the warp and you can always use the stratagem for them to only use 1 dice! I mean - you are ether going to get a lot of free mortal wounds or they will just decide not to cast powers until your warlord is dead.

Both of these are great news for the your army that game.


Unfortunately it does not really help against some super psykers like Magnus, since he gets a +2 or +3 to cast anyway.
But I think that is will be really nasty against cheap smite spam lists.


It still helps, how expensive is that warp time ability that allows him to move again? Even with +2, on 1 d6 he may not get ut. And if he does, you still have a decent chance at denying. If I can keep him from double moving or gaining +1 invul then that will be a big help.


Okay you are right about that. Quite frankly there is no better psyker defense than Kronos Hive Fleet with the special WL trait.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:36:40


Post by: Lance845


 Zimko wrote:
Can the jorm strat be used for multiple units? For example, spend 3 CP and bring in 3 units of genestealers from raveners holes? And give those raveners 24 inch deathspitters.


\Yes. Its before the game starts so can be used multiple times.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:40:33


Post by: Zimko


 Lance845 wrote:
 Zimko wrote:
Can the jorm strat be used for multiple units? For example, spend 3 CP and bring in 3 units of genestealers from raveners holes? And give those raveners 24 inch deathspitters.


\Yes. Its before the game starts so can be used multiple times.


Excellent, and the raveners don't have to be the same fleet. So right now I'm thinking of taking raveners in a behemoth detachment with adrenal gland gaunts or stealers in a jorm detachment and 3 neuros in a Kronos supreme command detachment.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:45:47


Post by: Astmeister


That is all valid, but you have to watch out for your Synapse coverage!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:47:03


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Have we seen the verbiage for the Jorm strat? I haven't seen that pic yet.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 15:47:49


Post by: Zimko


Indeed. Perhaps a deep striking hive tyrant or Trygon Prime followed up by neuros in those detachments. That gives quite a bit of smite spam to support the flood of gaunts that will hopefully remove screens


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like this...

Behemoth battalion
Malanthrope
Neurothrope
30 devgaunts (in trygon)
3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 ravs
3 ravs
3 ravs
Trygon Prine
3 biovores
2 biovores

Jormun Battalion
Old One Eye
Swarmlord
10 gaunts with glands
10 gaunts with glands
10 gaunts with glands
1 biovore

Supreme Kronos
3 Neurothropes

10 command points. You have the option of using those 3 10 man gaunts as a screen for the biovores and thropes or as an extra group of screen killers/melee attackers via the raveners tunnels that force stuff to fallback.
I take old one eye and Swarmlord because I love them at beatsticks and counter chargers. There's a lot of psychic support. I'd make a Kronos Neurothrope my warlord if I'm worried about psykers. Otherwise the malanthropes can be a warlord to deny slay the warlord.

I like flexibility and I feel like this strikes a nice TAC balance.

Edit: Moved a solo biovore to the other detachment so I can have 10 units on the board and 10 in reserves. Also, suffering IB just means he will miss more which is ok for biovores.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:15:02


Post by: Marmatag


Spoletta wrote:
Hardly, i think that this is the same situation of the SM codex. They have the <Chapter> keyword and the adeptus astartes keyword. Theyr stratagems and relics RAW would apply also to Blood Angels since they share the Adeptus Astartes keyword, but they don't since in the codex it specifies that only the Adeptus Astartes from that book can benefit from it.
We could have an identical situation for tyranid keyword.


This is exactly what i've been trying to say.

GSC can't use IG stratagems and benefit from IG tactics like Vostroyen et al, so it stands to reason they can't benefit from Tyranids either.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:25:42


Post by: Niiai


Can somebody please find out 2 things for me:

1. Is the Neuronthrope a Special character?

2. Is the warrior and ravnerer deathspitters 24" range, or it that only the MCs?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:26:48


Post by: Jacksmiles


Death Guard can use CSM stratagems because they share <Heretic Astartes>. It all depends on the exact wording of the stratagem and the units/keywords it applies to.

I could see them saying GSC can't do it explicitly, but as of right now we're told that you gain access to stratagems by having a detachment that is fully X codex (and certain ones for specific chapters/legions/etc.), and then you can use those stratagems on anything the stratagems themselves specify.

It's really not worth planning around yet though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:29:33


Post by: Amishprn86


 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody please find out 2 things for me:

1. Is the Neuronthrope a Special character?

2. Is the warrior and ravnerer deathspitters 24" range, or it that only the MCs?


The other days post showed the Neurothrope isnt special.

Non-MC Deathspitters are 24" according to the leaks.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:32:26


Post by: Razerous


There is hope for Lictorshame!

Fingers crossed


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 16:53:56


Post by: Drager


 luke1705 wrote:
What I like best about Tyranids is that we can reserve almost anything we like, and that we have a lot of solid choices in every slot, so you don’t have to take things just because they’re cheap.

Grab some exocrines in the heavy slot, or a dakkafex or three. I’m not super sold on biovores, but I’ll certainly give them a shot to see how those mortal wounds stack up. Could really make or break a game against a primarch.

Lictors as elites I think are mandatory now, but I’ll probably run a Hive Guard unit to double fire (just not in my main Brigade). Does the deathleaper count as a “lictor” for the lictor Strat? might be worth running if so.

Flyrants are amazing HQ choices again with the ability to deep strike and with fly meaning they always fire at full effect, plus malanthropes and Broodlords are excellent too. The HQ section is actually pretty bloated.

Gargoyles are a beautiful deep striking unit. No, they won’t “tarpit” things, but if those things can’t fall back and shoot, that’s a real issue. And if you get lucky, maybe you can wrap around and lock yourself in combat. It’s a real nuisance unit for only 60 points.

Rippers are the penultimate objective grabbers. Hormagants are awesome. Nothing more needs to be said about Genestealers, and now they got even more adaptable. Even the devilgant with just a ton of shooting is much better since you can fire them twice.

The more I look at this, the more I think that Tyranids absolutely have a solid place in the competitive scene


Interesting breakdown. Which unit do you think is better than rippers for objective grabbing? You say they are second best, but not which you think is best.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:03:42


Post by: Strat_N8


 Marmatag wrote:

GSC can't use IG stratagems and benefit from IG tactics like Vostroyen et al, so it stands to reason they can't benefit from Tyranids either.


The FAQ didn't prohibit GSC from using stratagems, just the <Regiment> specific ones as the <Regiment> in all instances is replaced with <Brood Brothers>. The more limiting factor in the case of the AM/IG stratagems is that there are only a handful that can work due to most of them requiring the Astra Militarium keyword to use them(Go! Recon! being one of the few that works on both) but the Tyranid ones don't have that problem.

There is also president for Stratagems working cross faction provided you meet the targeting keywords thanks to the Death Guard FAQ.

Also not entirely tactics related, but does anyone have any idea as to which fleet this color scheme belongs to?


It reminds me a lot of one I saw in a painting blog I remember reading years ago (around 5th edition). Would be interesting if it became an official one.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:07:10


Post by: Ratius


Im confused/disappointed in the Carnis melee options.
Using MCCs without a charge hes hitting on 5s with 4 attacks so likely a whopping singular hit. With a charge improves slightly to 4+.
Taking MSTs hes hitting on 4s but only at str6. On a charge this improves to 3+.

Am I missing something here? Unless you guarantee a charge why would one take MCCs? If you need to hurt that T7-8 vehicle creature MSTs dont cut it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:12:00


Post by: Strat_N8


 Ratius wrote:
Im confused/disappointed in the Carnis melee options.
Using MCCs without a charge hes hitting on 5s with 4 attacks so likely a whopping singular hit. With a charge improves slightly to 4+.
Taking MSTs hes hitting on 4s but only at str6. On a charge this improves to 3+.

Am I missing something here? Unless you guarantee a charge why would one take MCCs? If you need to hurt that T7-8 vehicle creature MSTs dont cut it.


To be fair, in most instances you probably will be charging given how easy it is to fall back from combat it is, so realistically the bonus to-hit will be in play and if it isn't, it is probably because they are charging with something that will kill the Carni in one go anyway. Still, I think the intent is probably for Haruspexes to provide the melee-based can opener while the Carnifex is more at home as a hybrid gun platform that can fight if needed (excluding Stonecrushers).


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:33:18


Post by: Lance845


So right now I am considering, without any particular detachment because I want to wait for points to really hammer out the exact thing... but

A supreme command with 4 neurothropes and a malanthrope. Maybe switch that to 3 neurothropes and 2 malanthropes depending on... things.

2 Ravener Broods (maybe 3)
2 30 man devilgant blobs
A hormagaunt brood with the 3rd maybe

Trygon Prime
30 Man Hormagaunt brood

2 exocrines

1 or 2 Hive Tyrants. One will probably have the miasma cannon.

Dakkafexes.to fill it out if I have any room.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:36:51


Post by: Niiai


 Strat_N8 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:

GSC can't use IG stratagems and benefit from IG tactics like Vostroyen et al, so it stands to reason they can't benefit from Tyranids either.


The FAQ didn't prohibit GSC from using stratagems, just the <Regiment> specific ones as the <Regiment> in all instances is replaced with <Brood Brothers>. The more limiting factor in the case of the AM/IG stratagems is that there are only a handful that can work due to most of them requiring the Astra Militarium keyword to use them(Go! Recon! being one of the few that works on both) but the Tyranid ones don't have that problem.

There is also president for Stratagems working cross faction provided you meet the targeting keywords thanks to the Death Guard FAQ.

Also not entirely tactics related, but does anyone have any idea as to which fleet this color scheme belongs to?


It reminds me a lot of one I saw in a painting blog I remember reading years ago (around 5th edition). Would be interesting if it became an official one.


It is not one of the 7 names. But it looks like a hydra scheme. https://imgur.com/a/0S7OG


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:39:28


Post by: Marmatag


We simply don't have the weight of dice to get by killing vehicles (T7/T8) in melee with monstrous creatures.

Either surround with melee like GS or HGants, or hit with Tyrannofex from range.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 17:49:43


Post by: Niiai


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody please find out 2 things for me:

1. Is the Neuronthrope a Special character?

2. Is the warrior and ravnerer deathspitters 24" range, or it that only the MCs?


The other days post showed the Neurothrope isnt special.

Non-MC Deathspitters are 24" according to the leaks.


Thank you. :-)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 18:03:25


Post by: Zimko


 Lance845 wrote:
So right now I am considering, without any particular detachment because I want to wait for points to really hammer out the exact thing... but

A supreme command with 4 neurothropes and a malanthrope. Maybe switch that to 3 neurothropes and 2 malanthropes depending on... things.

2 Ravener Broods (maybe 3)
2 30 man devilgant blobs
A hormagaunt brood with the 3rd maybe

Trygon Prime
30 Man Hormagaunt brood

2 exocrines

1 or 2 Hive Tyrants. One will probably have the miasma cannon.

Dakkafexes.to fill it out if I have any room.


That's similar to my thinking. It covers all the competitive bases. Chaf clearing, smite spamming, psyker shut down, and lots of bodies for objectives.

The only thing I worry about is infiltrators messing up our deep strike deployment. But at least devourers are 18 inch range.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 18:08:34


Post by: njtrader


So what's the consensus on Mono-Hive Fleet adaptations? Jorm seems really good.

Any ideas?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 18:14:22


Post by: Zimko


njtrader wrote:
So what's the consensus on Mono-Hive Fleet adaptations? Jorm seems really good.

Any ideas?


If you're gonna go mono, I'd say Jorm for shooty lists and the 3d6 pick highest to advance one for melee lists...Kraken?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:02:10


Post by: Jin


 Ratius wrote:
Im confused/disappointed in the Carnis melee options.
Using MCCs without a charge hes hitting on 5s with 4 attacks so likely a whopping singular hit. With a charge improves slightly to 4+.
Taking MSTs hes hitting on 4s but only at str6. On a charge this improves to 3+.

Am I missing something here? Unless you guarantee a charge why would one take MCCs? If you need to hurt that T7-8 vehicle creature MSTs dont cut it.



I ran numbers, and no, you're not missing anything. In most situations, the 2xMSTs are better than the MCC's. The only situation in which the MCC's are better are if you get the charge.

Even on the charge, against T7/8, the MCC's are only marginally better, on average.


From what I could see, though, merely having the MCC's hit on 4+ or better makes them better than MSTs. It's the moment you drop them to hitting on 5's that it gets worse.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:05:12


Post by: Marmatag


The adaptations are pretty much all good honestly from an army-wide buff standpoint.

What will really differentiate for you are the hive-fleet specific stratagems that you can use, based on how your army plays.

I was originally thinking Jormungandr is auto-take, but there are some really nice stratagems, warlord traits, and relics, available to the other ones so far, too. Gorgon has the ability to make your hive tyrant Toughness 8, and a 6+ feel no pain is just as good as a +1 to save for chaff, and overall better for units that will be relying on an invlun save already, or not eligible because they'll be charging, or in melee.

My list post codex so far will have at least 90 gants with 60 being hormagants. We're still lacking in anti-tank firepower, and these guys can invalidate quite a few vehicles by just getting into melee, which might be possible now. 30 dakkagants to clear the chaff with 180 shots. then, charging in with the hormagants, assisted by Swarmlord double move + advance + charge.

So how are you going to win? Getting a few extra saves might really make the difference, but by in large, saving an extra 3-4 gants is not as big as making that charge you would have failed, by rerolling, or getting an extra 18" of movement in advances over the course of a game, per unit.

I guess what i'm saying is more information is needed before committing to a hive fleet. Specifically warlord traits, stratagems, and relics.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:06:20


Post by: Tyran


 Ratius wrote:
Im confused/disappointed in the Carnis melee options.
Using MCCs without a charge hes hitting on 5s with 4 attacks so likely a whopping singular hit. With a charge improves slightly to 4+.
Taking MSTs hes hitting on 4s but only at str6. On a charge this improves to 3+.

Am I missing something here? Unless you guarantee a charge why would one take MCCs? If you need to hurt that T7-8 vehicle creature MSTs dont cut it.

MCC are better anti-tank than MST, as the X2 strength more than makes it up for the -1 to hit against high toughness targets.

Although Stone Crushers are still the best melee AT we have.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:08:43


Post by: Xenomancers


Help me understand - why are we taking hormagaunts?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:13:25


Post by: njtrader


I think for swarming. Gaunts are good in huge numbers, especially with the Kraken rolls... Just swamp them in melee and chuck tons of dice.

I'm not 100% sold on Kraken yet. I have a feeling Jorm will be the best overall, but not entirely sure. Tis book has excellent internal balance. Jorm is great for defense - if you've taking the bigger stuff, not just tides of hormagaunts/termagaunts....

The the strats for the rest are sweet, and Kronos seems good against brimstone/psyker spam.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:20:16


Post by: Xenomancers


I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:31:36


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



The point cost, the consolidation for tarpit.

20 Genestealers is only 60 points less than 60 hormagants. So, for 60 points you get 3 times the bodies.

Genestealers are a good unit, though, i'm not saying they're not.

I guess the question really is:

How will you deal with taurox primes and heavy weapons teams? That's got to be the first question you ask yourself in list building.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:46:49


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



The point cost, the consolidation for tarpit.

20 Genestealers is only 60 points less than 60 hormagants. So, for 60 points you get 3 times the bodies.

Genestealers are a good unit, though, i'm not saying they're not.

I guess the question really is:

How will you deal with taurox primes and heavy weapons teams? That's got to be the first question you ask yourself in list building.

Geenstealers can advance and charge though. So they are much better to use with the swarm-lord first turn charge tactic right?

Can you run 10 point geen stealers? If you don't give them rending talons?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:50:00


Post by: Marmatag


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



The point cost, the consolidation for tarpit.

20 Genestealers is only 60 points less than 60 hormagants. So, for 60 points you get 3 times the bodies.

Genestealers are a good unit, though, i'm not saying they're not.

I guess the question really is:

How will you deal with taurox primes and heavy weapons teams? That's got to be the first question you ask yourself in list building.

Geenstealers can advance and charge though. So they are much better to use with the swarm-lord first turn charge tactic right?

Can you run 10 point geen stealers? If you don't give them rending talons?


No their claws come stock, can't drop them.

If you really want to advance + charge, you can do that with Onslaught. The nice thing is, if you're pairing with Swarmlord and onslaught, you'll know if you've manifested onslaught successfully before you advance.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:52:52


Post by: Zimko


 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



The point cost, the consolidation for tarpit.

20 Genestealers is only 60 points less than 60 hormagants. So, for 60 points you get 3 times the bodies.

Genestealers are a good unit, though, i'm not saying they're not.

I guess the question really is:

How will you deal with taurox primes and heavy weapons teams? That's got to be the first question you ask yourself in list building.

Geenstealers can advance and charge though. So they are much better to use with the swarm-lord first turn charge tactic right?

Can you run 10 point geen stealers? If you don't give them rending talons?


No their claws come stock, can't drop them.

If you really want to advance + charge, you can do that with Onslaught. The nice thing is, if you're pairing with Swarmlord and onslaught, you'll know if you've manifested onslaught successfully before you advance.


Not quite. Advance is done in the movement phase. So that is only true if you don't advance in the movement phase. Then advance in the shooting phase with the Swarmlord's ability after knowing if onslaught worked. It's safer but also not as quick.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:54:58


Post by: Marmatag


 Zimko wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I just don't see why you'd take horms over geenstealers



The point cost, the consolidation for tarpit.

20 Genestealers is only 60 points less than 60 hormagants. So, for 60 points you get 3 times the bodies.

Genestealers are a good unit, though, i'm not saying they're not.

I guess the question really is:

How will you deal with taurox primes and heavy weapons teams? That's got to be the first question you ask yourself in list building.

Geenstealers can advance and charge though. So they are much better to use with the swarm-lord first turn charge tactic right?

Can you run 10 point geen stealers? If you don't give them rending talons?


No their claws come stock, can't drop them.

If you really want to advance + charge, you can do that with Onslaught. The nice thing is, if you're pairing with Swarmlord and onslaught, you'll know if you've manifested onslaught successfully before you advance.


Not quite. Advance is done in the movement phase. So that is only true if you don't advance in the movement phase. Then advance in the shooting phase with the Swarmlord's ability after knowing if onslaught worked. It's safer but also not as quick.


This is what i meant.

Your movement phase will be popping out of reserves, 9" away from the enemy. Then you manifest onslaught. Then you clear the chaff with your dakka, and move + advance the horms.

It's better with genestealers for killing. 100% better. But they might be overkill against HWT, and tying up Tprimes you want more bodies to survive overwatch, and the 6" consolidate.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 19:58:48


Post by: McGibs


What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:09:10


Post by: Marmatag


 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:10:30


Post by: McGibs


 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


Have their been pointcost leaks for the carapace, or is it just a trade for their advance/charge ability?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:15:53


Post by: Zimko


It's bad enough as just a trade. If it costs points too then it's completely out.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:16:50


Post by: Marmatag


 McGibs wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


Have their been pointcost leaks for the carapace, or is it just a trade for their advance/charge ability?


That i do not know. I am certain it wouldn't be a price decrease, though.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:22:30


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


I agree with this partially. The caveat is that dropping 20 3+ stealers will also be besides 2 flyrants, 2 trygons, and 30 devourer gaunts. In addition to the hormagaunt/gargoyles that should be right behind/beside them. At that point the enemy is forced to make very hard choices with every drop of firepower they have.

Eldar will have no chance to stop this, they don't have nearly enough dice.

Straight marines won't have enough screens or dice.

IG has the screens and the dice, it will really come down to specifics in lists, mission and dice for us to overcome most competitive IG lists, I think. What works vs most armies for us might not work against them.

However, Eldar may completely change the IG meta, which in turn will likely empower us.

Its hard to say fot sure where the meta will go, but it feels like Tyranids will counter smite spam hordes, Eldar will counter gunline and IGs only weakness (no ability to deal with mass consolidates locking up huge parts of their army) is too difficult to exploit with how good conscript walls are. But, if an army has the tools to do it, I think we will. Even 15 hgaunts could easily cut a quarter or more of IG shooting out.

Problem is being able to erase the screen and get inside without eating two full turns of shooting. Swarmlord may be the answer, with the shooting phase movement. Who knows, for now.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:31:52


Post by: pinecone77


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


I agree with this partially. The caveat is that dropping 20 3+ stealers will also be besides 2 flyrants, 2 trygons, and 30 devourer gaunts. In addition to the hormagaunt/gargoyles that should be right behind/beside them. At that point the enemy is forced to make very hard choices with every drop of firepower they have.

Eldar will have no chance to stop this, they don't have nearly enough dice.

Straight marines won't have enough screens or dice.

IG has the screens and the dice, it will really come down to specifics in lists, mission and dice for us to overcome most competitive IG lists, I think. What works vs most armies for us might not work against them.

However, Eldar may completely change the IG meta, which in turn will likely empower us.

Its hard to say fot sure where the meta will go, but it feels like Tyranids will counter smite spam hordes, Eldar will counter gunline and IGs only weakness (no ability to deal with mass consolidates locking up huge parts of their army) is too difficult to exploit with how good conscript walls are. But, if an army has the tools to do it, I think we will. Even 15 hgaunts could easily cut a quarter or more of IG shooting out.

Problem is being able to erase the screen and get inside without eating two full turns of shooting. Swarmlord may be the answer, with the shooting phase movement. Who knows, for now.
I agree MTO is still the Nid "way" I think Kronos is a "meta" changer Fleet....not an auto take, but having it around changes so many other factions chances of victory, that they will have to build in different units "just in case". I'd say that Chaos, and Aeldari are the most "boned" then any "smite spam" army.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:34:23


Post by: Marmatag


Honestly against IG, depending on their screens, i might deep strike a flying hive tyrant and use Swarmlord to have him hop over the screens and lock up the Tauroxes.

But at the end of the day, i'm not saying Genstealers are a bad unit. In fact, the opposite, they're a great unit, but only if you get them where you need them to go.

I just refuse to discount hormagants because genestealers exist. They're two parts of very different strategies at least to me.

With Genestealers I would beta strike. it's a sizable investment, but i would prefer to do this when the big stuff is exposed, and other things are locked in combat. And I would not pay points for extra saves on them. And I would not take jormungandr just to keep them alive, when i can take something that will be an army-wide boost, even for things that have charged.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:36:35


Post by: pinecone77


Right now I am entranced by Hypertoxic...a big Brood of Toxic Hormies, wounding for 2 on a 5+...Yowza! And I still haven't seen what the Toxecrene will be! They seem to have done a Very good job of ballence so far...nothing seems "auto take" nothing looks "bad" (Pyrvores still not released )


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:40:00


Post by: Marmatag


The new start collecting box is:

Trygon
8 Genestealers
1 Broorlord

in case this wasn't posted


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:46:17


Post by: taetrius67


Why could You not get the charge if You pop 9" away?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 20:55:35


Post by: Xenomancers


 Marmatag wrote:
Honestly against IG, depending on their screens, i might deep strike a flying hive tyrant and use Swarmlord to have him hop over the screens and lock up the Tauroxes.

But at the end of the day, i'm not saying Genstealers are a bad unit. In fact, the opposite, they're a great unit, but only if you get them where you need them to go.

I just refuse to discount hormagants because genestealers exist. They're two parts of very different strategies at least to me.

With Genestealers I would beta strike. it's a sizable investment, but i would prefer to do this when the big stuff is exposed, and other things are locked in combat. And I would not pay points for extra saves on them. And I would not take jormungandr just to keep them alive, when i can take something that will be an army-wide boost, even for things that have charged.

I was thinking this exact thing - just take a single melle kraken flying hive. Hit him with swarm lord turn 1 out of a tyranocyte. He can move 21 inches pre charge - pretty good chance at making combat with anything he wants.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/03 21:20:28


Post by: Marmatag


taetrius67 wrote:
Why could You not get the charge if You pop 9" away?


You could but you'd be charging screening units. In effect, suicide. There is a reason, pre-codex, why Tyranids are struggling.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 01:24:45


Post by: winterman


 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.

First, I think carapace stealers are only good if you are deepstriking them - so gotta have tyrannocyte, trygon, jorm tunnels + tunnelrs or lictor phermone trail. If you aren't taking that then you need that advance and charge to threaten turn 1 and ensure turn 2 charges.
Second, if you are deepstriking them always and carapace ends up being free, then I think its auto include. That 4+ is handier than you think and you are already 9" away from the enemy lines. And if you need extra speed later on then onslaught is an option, or behemoth (which you likely took since you are deepstriking).
Third Jorm stealers for that 3+ is pretty situational. YMDC will probably get a query about how Jorm works when failing a charge, but assuming conservative you lose it on attempts, then frankly how often will you get the 3+? Late game on an objective maybe, but only on a turn you didn't charge with stealers? I dunno I like Jorm because I intend to take both reserved stealers and nidzilla that will get that cover bonus, but its not a lock and its not cause of 3+ save stealers.
Fourth if you want defense then maybe Leviathan is where you go. It works all the time not just against shooting when not advancing and charging, can still combo with 4+ save stealers for even more durability if you go that route and there's no meta issues like ignores cover armies which will likely become more and more of a thing as codexes come out.
Fifth, as alluded to above, if you are going deepstrike and taking carapace then behemoth might be your better choice.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 03:53:35


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
We simply don't have the weight of dice to get by killing vehicles (T7/T8) in melee with monstrous creatures.

Either surround with melee like GS or HGants, or hit with Tyrannofex from range.


I used index costs in a lot of places, so some things will increase in efficiency once we have the codex, though I used the leaked rules wherever possible. This list does not take any other factors into account, is simply a measure of our possible anti-tank weaponry.

From best to worst

Versus T7 3+

FOR COMPARISON
4x LC BS3 predator averages 5.18 damage for 190 pts making 36 pts/w

MST WS3 Trygon averages 8 damage for 165 pts making 20 pts/w

3x Shockcannon BS3 HG vs vehicle averages 4.64 damage for 108 pts making 23 pts/w

2x MST WS3 fex averages 3.27 damage for 83 pts making 25 pts/w

MCC WS3 fex averages 3.33 damage for 97 pts making 29 pts/w

2x MST ws4 fex averages 2.42 damage for 83 pts making 34 pts/w

Double tap BS3 exocrine averages 6.66 damage for 228 pts making 34.2 pts/w

Rending claw WS3 genestealers A3 average .33 damage for 12 pts making 36 pts/w (WITHOUT ADDING RENDING ON 6)

2x DS/HVC BS3 Fex averages 2.7 damage for 112 pts making 40.32 pts/w

3x Impaler BS3 HG average 3.55 damage for 144 pts making 40.5 pts/w

Double tap rupture cannon BS4 averages 5.83 damage for 243 pts making 41.65 pts/w (Cost should be reducing in codex)

MCC ws4 fex averages 2.2 damage for 97 pts making 44 pts/w

Venom cannon BS4 warrior averages .88 damage for 40 pts making 45 pts/w

devourer BS4 gants average .16 damage for 8 pts making 48 pts/w

4x MC DS BS3 fex average 2 damage for 106 pts making 53 pts/w

4x MC Dev BS3 fex average 1.77 damage for 106 pts making 59.625 pts/w

2x HVC BS4 Harpy Averages 2.66 damage for 162 pts making 60.75 pts/w

Deathspitter BS4 warriors average .25 damage for 25 pts making 100 pts/w

I'm pretty sure the rending effect of GS increases their damage against T7 3+ by at least 25% (Because 50% of their wounds will allow no save vs .5 save, so on average they save half as many. My gut says it would be more than 25% damage increase, can someone help me with the math on this?) which would make them the one of the most efficient damage before figuring in either of their buffs (A4 or WS2). If acid maw is really 0 pts, that further buffs their average damage.

If warrior venom cannons are indeed 20 pts, they are actually halfway cost-efficient guns, but you're still paying twice the cost of the gun+model (minimum) for the rest of the unit, so that immediately doubles their cost/wound and makes them one of the most inefficient.

New dev fexes are bad vs tanks, even if you use the 2x damage stratagem. However, because of their weight of dice, variance means there average curve for them is pretty flat compared to other weapons. What this means is, you have better odds of scoring under/over the average damage than on other platforms, and currently the way pathogenic slime is written, you should be able to wait until your opponent fails 4 saves to make them inflict 8 damage. I expect this to be FAQed, but still, the dakkafex is not the worst platform for shooting at vehicles if there are no infantry around.

Exocrine and Tyrannofex are both consistent anti-tank shooters. The exocrine gets a decent little damage buff from the pathogenic slime.

Biggest surprise was melee fex. The double MST at 15 pts (Supposedly) makes them actually SUPER efficient in combat with vehicles. 5 WS3 (Charge) attacks rerolling 1s is 78.5% accuracy. You should usually get 1, but occasionally 2 (1.3 on average) wounds out of this, with only a 6+ to save. The flat 3 damage keeps it consistent, but the real kicker is that they (supposedly) only cost 83 pts. They're AMAZING vs multi wound <=T5 as well. If people want I can add some math for tusks and OOE to see how those stack up. My biggest issue is that carnifex are not fast, and you shouldn't be getting turn 2 charges with naked MST fexes unless your opponent has made a mistake. So these efficient anti-vehicle weapons will likely not be able to be leveraged realistically.

Trygon getting the extra attack and having D6 damage is not surprising they hit the hardest of anything we have. It's basically 6 melee lascannons. They're also relatively cheap for their damage, but, sadly, relatively fragile. A single carnifex with -1 to hit is comparable durability versus many weapon profiles, for 50-70% of the cost.

TL;DR - Trygons, shockguard and Carnifex are the best for killing tanks, HVC+2x MCDev carnifex, Exocrines, Hive Guard and Rupturefex are all legitimate cost efficient anti-tank weapons platforms. Dev gants are surprisingly efficient for their cost.

If people want I'll make some of my spreadsheets publicly available and make some more digestible charts as images.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 04:10:39


Post by: Lance845


 Traceoftoxin wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
We simply don't have the weight of dice to get by killing vehicles (T7/T8) in melee with monstrous creatures.

Either surround with melee like GS or HGants, or hit with Tyrannofex from range.


I used index costs in a lot of places, so some things will increase in efficiency once we have the codex, though I used the leaked rules wherever possible. This list does not take any other factors into account, is simply a measure of our possible anti-tank weaponry.

From best to worst

Versus T7 3+

FOR COMPARISON
4x LC BS3 predator averages 5.18 damage for 190 pts making 36 pts/w

MST WS3 Trygon averages 8 damage for 165 pts making 20 pts/w

3x Shockcannon BS3 HG vs vehicle averages 4.64 damage for 108 pts making 23 pts/w

2x MST WS3 fex averages 3.27 damage for 83 pts making 25 pts/w

MCC WS3 fex averages 3.33 damage for 97 pts making 29 pts/w

2x MST ws4 fex averages 2.42 damage for 83 pts making 34 pts/w

Double tap BS3 exocrine averages 6.66 damage for 228 pts making 34.2 pts/w

Rending claw WS3 genestealers A3 average .33 damage for 12 pts making 36 pts/w (WITHOUT ADDING RENDING ON 6)

2x DS/HVC BS3 Fex averages 2.7 damage for 112 pts making 40.32 pts/w

3x Impaler BS3 HG average 3.55 damage for 144 pts making 40.5 pts/w

Double tap rupture cannon BS4 averages 5.83 damage for 243 pts making 41.65 pts/w (Cost should be reducing in codex)

MCC ws4 fex averages 2.2 damage for 97 pts making 44 pts/w

Venom cannon BS4 warrior averages .88 damage for 40 pts making 45 pts/w

devourer BS4 gants average .16 damage for 8 pts making 48 pts/w

4x MC DS BS3 fex average 2 damage for 106 pts making 53 pts/w

4x MC Dev BS3 fex average 1.77 damage for 106 pts making 59.625 pts/w

2x HVC BS4 Harpy Averages 2.66 damage for 162 pts making 60.75 pts/w

Deathspitter BS4 warriors average .25 damage for 25 pts making 100 pts/w

I'm pretty sure the rending effect of GS increases their damage against T7 3+ by at least 25% (Because 50% of their wounds will allow no save vs .5 save, so on average they save half as many. My gut says it would be more than 25% damage increase, can someone help me with the math on this?) which would make them the one of the most efficient damage before figuring in either of their buffs (A4 or WS2). If acid maw is really 0 pts, that further buffs their average damage.

If warrior venom cannons are indeed 20 pts, they are actually halfway cost-efficient guns, but you're still paying twice the cost of the gun+model (minimum) for the rest of the unit, so that immediately doubles their cost/wound and makes them one of the most inefficient.

New dev fexes are bad vs tanks, even if you use the 2x damage stratagem. However, because of their weight of dice, variance means there average curve for them is pretty flat compared to other weapons. What this means is, you have better odds of scoring under/over the average damage than on other platforms, and currently the way pathogenic slime is written, you should be able to wait until your opponent fails 4 saves to make them inflict 8 damage. I expect this to be FAQed, but still, the dakkafex is not the worst platform for shooting at vehicles if there are no infantry around.

Exocrine and Tyrannofex are both consistent anti-tank shooters. The exocrine gets a decent little damage buff from the pathogenic slime.

Biggest surprise was melee fex. The double MST at 15 pts (Supposedly) makes them actually SUPER efficient in combat with vehicles. 5 WS3 (Charge) attacks rerolling 1s is 78.5% accuracy. You should usually get 1, but occasionally 2 (1.3 on average) wounds out of this, with only a 6+ to save. The flat 3 damage keeps it consistent, but the real kicker is that they (supposedly) only cost 83 pts. They're AMAZING vs multi wound <=T5 as well. If people want I can add some math for tusks and OOE to see how those stack up. My biggest issue is that carnifex are not fast, and you shouldn't be getting turn 2 charges with naked MST fexes unless your opponent has made a mistake. So these efficient anti-vehicle weapons will likely not be able to be leveraged realistically.

Trygon getting the extra attack and having D6 damage is not surprising they hit the hardest of anything we have. It's basically 6 melee lascannons. They're also relatively cheap for their damage, but, sadly, relatively fragile. A single carnifex with -1 to hit is comparable durability versus many weapon profiles, for 50-70% of the cost.

TL;DR - Trygons, shockguard and Carnifex are the best for killing tanks, HVC+2x MCDev carnifex, Exocrines, Hive Guard and Rupturefex are all legitimate cost efficient anti-tank weapons platforms. Dev gants are surprisingly efficient for their cost.

If people want I'll make some of my spreadsheets publicly available and make some more digestible charts as images.


Sorry for the super quote. Typing on my phone. Awful to try to edit it down.

Make those spread sheets. If you can write up a little thing to explain what its about and pm it to me as a little tutorial on it il add it to the first post. By monday i intend to have the first post reformatted to have a unit break down and data like this on it.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 04:14:02


Post by: Sim-Life


 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


Have their been pointcost leaks for the carapace, or is it just a trade for their advance/charge ability?


That i do not know. I am certain it wouldn't be a price decrease, though.


No cost.

https://youtu.be/yI_SZljKcGc

First codex review is up.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 04:19:48


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Did a two part formula for genestealers.

They do ~50% more damage when you figure in rending, which pushes them down to 23.64 pts/w, one of the most efficient. At A4, they are THE most efficient, at 17.7 pts/w

I'll clean up the spreadsheets and write up a user guide, since they all use formulas.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 05:42:50


Post by: pinecone77


 Sim-Life wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
What do people think of jorm carapace stealers for a 3+ save? Just accept you wont get the 1st turn charge with them, and send them in with ravanor tunnles or a trygon.


Think about how easy it is to kill marines. You're investing quite a bit into your genstealers at this point, basically marine prices, for a unit that has to sit on the table and survive whatever shooting your opponent has in his gunline.

If someone deep strikes 10 marines in front of me, and I have a turn to kill them, that's laughably easy.

Not saying it wouldn't work if you play it well.

In this scenario i'd try to deploy them out of line of sight, although that won't work against Guard.


Have their been pointcost leaks for the carapace, or is it just a trade for their advance/charge ability?


That i do not know. I am certain it wouldn't be a price decrease, though.


No cost.

https://youtu.be/yI_SZljKcGc

First codex review is up.
If that is correct Genestealers lose Swift and Deadly if they take a Carapace...that means they still have 5++ save...Auto take if you plan to DS them in...might not take it if you use infestation nodes


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:13:35


Post by: Lance845


That video is fething awful to watch.

There is a just awful ringing noise that fades in and out and listening to a person kind of monotone ramble off numbers is just.... dull.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:14:36


Post by: pinecone77


Word, that is why I am not Sure about Stealers...


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:17:09


Post by: Timeshadow


So from the review 3 CP spore field gives 2 units of sporemines. It does not say minimum units so 2 units of 6 sporemines to float down before first turn for free.... nice little bonus if you wanna spend the CP could really box in a choke point on the map keeping an opponent boxed in. Also if you want to go crazy you could do this multple time and just cloke the field with spores if you wanted. 9cp = 36 spores on the field really restricting movement and all effectively free.

PS: Sporemine rules state if they are produced they are free so we shouldn't have to pay for them .... if we do have to pay for them it's 100% useless....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and free "power weapon/Acid maw" upgrade for one in 4 genestealers plus the option to take some flesh hooks as well that's sweet.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:23:34


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Wouldn't be the first useless stratagem.

3CP for 5 genestealers that still have to remain 9"+ away from enemies... what trash.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:36:31


Post by: Spoletta


Trygon with the reroll wound for 1 cp increase damage by 50%, i would take that into account.

Also, Trygon primes are characters now, so if you want to increase the durability give them the relic for -1 to hit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:38:25


Post by: Amishprn86


Book review (its a bit boring, do it while painting) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_SZljKcGc

Tabletop Tactics BatRep with new book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xGVnCfTa5M&feature=youtu.be


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:43:15


Post by: Lance845


Im going to start turning the first post into the tactics thing that it will be going forward. It's a work in progress. Please feel free to PM me suggestions or content.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 07:50:10


Post by: Traceoftoxin


Here's my current thoughts for my TAC list

Hive Fleet Kraken Battalion (Or maybe Leviathan, undecided)
Flyrant - 2x Dev, MRC (-1 to hit relic)
Malanthrope (Can be my warlord if I need to keep warlord alive)

30x Hormagaunts
30x Hormagaunts
3x Ripper Swarms

Hive Fleet Kronos Battalion (Warlord trait here if vs psyker army)
Flyrant - 2x Dev, MRC
Neurothrope

3x Ripper Swarms
3x Ripper Swarms
3x Ripper Swarms

Hive Fleet Jormungandr Spearhead or Battalion
Broodlord

20x Genestealers - Extended Carapce, 5x Acid Maw
30x Termagants - Devourers

Either:
Biovore
Trygon
Trygon
24 pts for other upgrades

OR

Neurothrope
14x Genestealers (Split both units into 17)
3x Raveners - Rending
3x Raveners - rending/Red Terror (I love Red terror and he costs the same as 3 ravs)
10 pts for other upgrades

Not 100% on the Trygons. I could save points and get a battalion by swapping them to Lictors or Raveners, but then I'd end up spending the 2 CP I get just to deep strike the stealers and dev gants. They also are very likely to survive turn 2, as the Flyrants will more than likely take the brunt of the firepower. If they kill the Trygons... then I have flyrants free to do whatever. Lictor damage output is abysmal. Raveners are about half as efficient as Genestealers, which means they're still actually pretty good.

Other option is to swap Trygons for 2x3 Raveners/red terror, I can change 20 Genestealers to 2x17. I remove the alternate target for the anti-tank weapons, which I dislike, but I almost double the # of Genestealers on the board.

With the Kraken advance stratagem, I should be able to get a unit of hormagaunts 18" turn 1, theoretically putting them ahead of the Genestealers. I can use metabolic overdrive on the other hormagaunt unit to get them probably 26" up (Losing about 5 models).

My turn 2 should be a free fire gallery for charging with whatever of mine doesn't die.

Malanthrope can slog, can make him warlord if no good targets for kronos trait, or some sort of mission where giving up the warlord will cost more VP. Only have him because I'd like to minimize losses on the Hormagaunts if I go second. Otherwise I'd save the 20 pts and take a neurothrope.

Ripper swarms help me shut off my whole backfield from deep strikers, grab objectives, and I can use a few to deep strike onto objectives if I need to.

Went with MRC instead of 4x guns on flyrants to save a few points and give them passable assault ability. Helps keep them from being basically helpless in assault, and for Kraken I can keep falling back and shoot+charge at full. May be worth just going full guns on Kronos though, if I can find the points.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 09:45:00


Post by: pinecone77


I think Hydra has a Regeneration Warlord Trait that might be good for a Fly'rant, or a Malenthrope. Also you might swap the Dakkagants into the Kronos because they have a Fleet feature that helps shooting (re-roll ones if you don't move)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 12:13:33


Post by: Kandela


Hello Tyranid Tactics!
I'm myself a future Genestealer Cult player, wanted to ask my hive brothers about Trygon vs Trygon Prime.

I intend to run a Spearhead Detachment of Magus and 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, everything have a Tyranid keyword but lack Hive-Fleet one, from what I understand from questioning my fellow Genestealer Cult players I can bring them in a pure Tyranid Detachment with Genestealer Cult units forsaking Cult Ambush and Hive-Fleet units forsaking Hive-Fleet bonuses (so nothing major).

My question is following: Which of the Trygons would you bring alone? Trygon Prime has Synapse special rule so he doesn't suffer from Instinct Behaviour, not to mention having twice the ranged firepower just in case. Normal Trygon would suffer from Instinct Behaviour and has half the firepower but is 35 points cheaper than basic Trygon Prime.

Any help would be appreciated.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 12:22:26


Post by: Amishprn86


So you want just 1 Trygon? Then a Prime b.c once you DS a Trygon your out of Synapse and you'll have a -2 to charge... and thats not good.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 12:37:57


Post by: Volkmair


I'm in the process of getting a Tyranid force and as I want something different to my Adeptus Mechanicus I plan to go full swarm. What do people thing the best weapon distribution for big blobs of termagaunts is? As one with a devourer is twice the cost of a fleshborer I'm currently looking at around a third devorers, and are spinefists of any use as you are trading a point of strength and being able to advance and shoot for being able to shoot in combat which I doubt any termagaunt really wants to do.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 12:49:56


Post by: Overread


Generally speaking it sounds like you're about right. The Termagaunt with fleshbourer has always been the backbone staple for gaunts and having a bulk of them is very typical.

Devourers are indeed a touch more specialist for gaunts; you're losing out on numbers for a better gun so typically you do tend to see them appear less. I'd still aim to build up to a good solid 30 core of them to start with.

Spinfists have always been the choice of those looking to go for mass numbers; its the swarming choice for gaunts as its typically the cheapest gun for them. That said I've never been overly impressed with them; good if you can swarm well and get up close.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 13:01:47


Post by: Niiai


 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Venom cannon BS4 warrior averages .88 damage for 40 pts making 45 pts/w


Deathspitter BS4 warriors average .25 damage for 25 pts making 100 pts/w

If warrior venom cannons are indeed 20 pts, they are actually halfway cost-efficient guns, but you're still paying twice the cost of the gun+model (minimum) for the rest of the unit, so that immediately doubles their cost/wound and makes them one of the most inefficient.



Being inspiered by Shuppet I was planing on running 2 9 man warrior squads with 3 venom cannons each with a prime for the B3+. But venom cannon at 20 points? That is high. If the other (barbed strangler?) is just 5 points 36 range, on averdge 0,5 shots more then the deathsdpitter.Boneswords are only 2 now, that is sweet.

Advice would be apreciated. I am painted leviathan so I want a strong synapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
That video is fething awful to watch.

There is a just awful ringing noise that fades in and out and listening to a person kind of monotone ramble off numbers is just.... dull.


Are spinefists (the gun) only 1 point? What about boneswords, only 2?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 13:03:19


Post by: Amishprn86


Well there are a few ways to play it.

For sure you want at least 1 unit of 20-30 with Devourers for the "can shoot 2x: and you can DS them.

A VERY popular thing to do is a Unit of 30 gants (10/20) Devilgants(10) and Gants(20) (Devilgants are Devourer gants nick name) and a Tervigon, the Devilgants in front and gants in back, if your gants get shot, take the Gants 1st and every turn get 10 normal gants back, they will literally have to kill over 20 in 1 phase to get to the Devil Gants.


You can also use Hormaganst and Genestealers for heavy hitters/tie ups, Hormaganst are some of the better tie up units in the game with their 6" consolidate.
Genestealers are very good anyways, and Hgants got a couple Stratagems to make them better.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 13:04:32


Post by: Niiai


 Lance845 wrote:
Im going to start turning the first post into the tactics thing that it will be going forward. It's a work in progress. Please feel free to PM me suggestions or content.


I would sugest starting a new thread. The first 18 pages areall wrong.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 14:18:45


Post by: Lance845


 Niiai wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Im going to start turning the first post into the tactics thing that it will be going forward. It's a work in progress. Please feel free to PM me suggestions or content.


I would sugest starting a new thread. The first 18 pages areall wrong.


Naw it'll be fine. There is some tactics stuff in there. And a month from now nobody is going to read the first 9 pages of a 40 page thread. All the most relevant information will be in the OP or the last 5-10 pages.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 15:21:55


Post by: v0iddrgn


I have a question, if I have 2 Tyrannocytes with units inside does that count as 4 units set up in tactical reserves?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 16:02:06


Post by: McGibs


Each unit in reserves counts towards the 50% limit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 16:08:51


Post by: Mandragola


Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 16:31:28


Post by: pinecone77


Mandragola wrote:
Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.
It would be Fun. Go go! Hive Fleet Behemeth!


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 17:39:33


Post by: Niiai


Mandragola wrote:
Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.


Army wide -1 to hit? Even with malanthropes you would need to have 9 of them in range.

Fun thing though, the zoanthrope character with hive crone could make for good synapse.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 20:23:11


Post by: Marmatag


 Amishprn86 wrote:
So you want just 1 Trygon? Then a Prime b.c once you DS a Trygon your out of Synapse and you'll have a -2 to charge... and thats not good.


My thoughts would be 1 trygon prime instead of 2 trygons, if you're serious about DS i'd have a Jorm detachment for the tunnels follow strat.

My core list looks similar, i've grouped it into pools of units, as mixing and matching detachments and traits will depend entirely on what the entire codex has to offer.


HQ Pool
Swarmlord
Flying Hive Tyrant, melee
Flying Hive Tyrant, Dakka
Neurothrope
Broodlord

Troop Pool
30x Hormagants
30x Hormagants
30x Dakkagants
20x Genestealers
Ripper swarms to fill slots

Heavy Pool
Trygon Prime
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Tyrannofex

Things I'm probably going to include but haven't figured out how yet:
Venomthropes
Tyranid Warriors
Hive Guards
Tervigon - I'm really tempted to include this guy, and set aside some points for spitting out terms. It doesn't cost much to get 10 or 20 termagants, and spitting them out at the right time could be useful.

I actually really like the acid tyrannofex but i need to see his points cost. 4d6 shots auto-hitting is pretty beast, especially if you can give him the +1 damage. I'm not sure if he can use the jorm strat to ds, but unloading him in your enemies face would really prevent counter-charges. Could be a situational play, but against assassins, berzerkers, he's a straight boss with those 4d6 dice.

Unless I see otherwise, i'll probably never be a hive that rerolls 1's. It just doesn't mesh well considering we already have those abilities on our guys. I also feel like getting baited into trying to use the zoanthrope stratagem is a colossal mistake.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 21:43:11


Post by: BlaxicanX


If Matt is right about a BS3+ BLdev carnifex only costing 105 points, I don't see a single reason not to spam the gak out of those things.

That's 72 strength six shots, hitting on Three's for 315 points, all on a very durable platform.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 23:01:25


Post by: Mandragola


 BlaxicanX wrote:
If Matt is right about a BS3+ BLdev carnifex only costing 105 points, I don't see a single reason not to spam the gak out of those things.

That's 72 strength six shots, hitting on Three's for 315 points, all on a very durable platform.

Yeah carnifexes are back, in a really big way. I think it might make sense to go with one set of scything talons and some kind of gun, many times over. It makes sense for them to be a threat in melee as well as shooting I think.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/04 23:20:34


Post by: Niiai


How is the distractiuon carnifex on mathammer? And how much more is the screamer killer to the distraction carnifex?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 01:35:14


Post by: Traceoftoxin


I'll have a bunch of mathhammer up in nice spreadsheets here in a few days.

Won a (4 man, lol) rtt today with index nids. Should have been a draw, my second opponent conceded even though he rightfully only had a minor loss.

Top table was against Magnus tzeentch daemons, the 1 objective in each deployment zone. I castled up with everything and reserved the trygons alone. Turn one he lit up about 30 hormagaunts with smite. I opened up on one flank with a unit of stealers/hormagaunts and spread out on the other flank with the other stealers/horms. The stealers/horms got stuck in on the left, blue horrors splitting into brims is absolutely infuriating to deal with, and I brought one of his heralds down a wound. Smite/exalted flamer brought the stealers down to 6, hgant down to 1, he lit up the other hgants with another 5 heralds and got them pretty low. Turn 3 my untouched stealers did a break out and advanced 6", with 14" of movement I smashed one of his 5 man herald bricks and totally obliterated the 4 I could reach.

Meanwhile my Trygons were up in his backfield working towards his objective. He couldn't push to my objective and still kill the Trygons, but brims/blues are just so fething durable for their points the Trygons were basically stomping through mud.

Game ended with Magnus sitting on my objective, with a 30 man dev gant squad wrapping him up and a broodlord in a figure 8 so he couldn't do anything to the broodlord and the gants were in synapse. I had some stealers on his but they were mired in like 40 horrors, with the trygons on the outside of the objective slicing their way in.

Genestealers killed like 7 of his heralds, carnifex performed like gak, and hormagaunts did their job of dying while tying things up and being obnoxious.

He had warlord+linebreaker and his objective
I had first blood+linebreaker and my objective

Was a really brutal game. He was super surprised by how fast the stealers moved and how hard they hit.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 03:23:48


Post by: Marmatag


Could you post your full list?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 05:42:30


Post by: Lance845




Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 05:45:02


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
Could you post your full list?


The lists, outside the guy I played for first, were not particularly hard.

Index Nids
Battalion
Broodlord
Broodlord

30x Horms
30x Horms
20x GS
20x GS
30x Devgants

Vanguard
Malanthrope

2x Dakkafex
2x Trygon with Adrenal glands

First game was vs footdar. He was doing his first set of games with it and mostly just testing stuff out. He had 15 dark reapers, eldrad, warlock cov, autarch, karandaras, 5 spectres, 5 scorps, 10 avengers, 2x5 rangers, ~8 banshees and 5 shield wraithguard. He actually was DQed because he had Eldrad in an Alaitoc detachment, but was using all the stratagems and traits. The game was a draw at the end of 3, but 1 more turn and he was about to be swept, I think. I had a trygon, stealers, broodlord and dakkagants all in position to roll through his backfield and I had initiative. I played very poorly, it should have been a complete route with ease if I had not started deployment by placing both hormagaunt units to one side of center. I always place them with flanking the center with space for a genestealer unit or carnifex, so I have flexibility. It ended leaving me with 30 hgants that did basically nothing for most of the game, left a unit of stealers deployed alone on my left flank. He used both ranger squads to deny deep strikes in the middle, and knowing he would do that, I should have placed all my GS on the board to use them as a slingshot. If I had deployed properly I could have hit the left rangers with 2x GS and 1x Hgant and then been ontop of his dark reapers in my turn 2. Instead I for some reason tried to refuse flank into his wraithguard, dire avengers and howling banshees. Ended up eating 15 dark reapers shooting for 3 full turns. It was really stupid of me, but the sheer assault power of the Genestealers+Broodlords combined with the massive tarpit capability of the hormagaunts kept me in the game. His +1 to psychic test stratagems was completely game changing, as was him using 1CP fire and fade as the 2CP fall back and shoot at full. They were completely innocent mistakes, but, they had a huge impact, and the DQ was by his own choice.

Second game was vs world eaters with 2x8 berserkers, 2x forgefiends, 20 bloodletters, 3x oblits, 6 bikers, bike lord, juggerlord, lord on foot and 10 malefic lords. He conceded top of 4, even though he could have played it out for a minor win. I used the hormagaunts to keep him boxed in and screen my stealers, then counter charged and obliterated stuff. I used 1 empty Trygon as a distraction to draw away 5 of his lords and the obliterators to a far flank, focused on pushing him away from the 2 (4 objectives at the ends of a + shape) objectives in my half of the board. The distraction Trygon pulled a lot of his forces to the left flank, then I was able to bring up the Termagants and second Trygon to cut them off from coming back across to mid-field, while my stealers worked on taking control of the objective on the far side of the board, and dakkafexes stomped around rolling terribly. At the top of 4 I was holding my two and I had a dakkafex and like 18 stealers on his north objective where he had ~5 bloodletters, 5 malefic lords (4 of which were weakened), foot lord and 2 forgefiends. I was going to gun down the bloodletters, and charge all the lords in one go, probably wiping them out and then consolidating into the forgefiends. I didn't really have the forces left to fight him off his last objective, but he was too far to get back to my side of the board and stop me from holding 3 to 1.

3rd game I covered.

My biggest take away was that if I had been playing codex Tyranids, all of those games would have gone VERY. VERY. VERY. differently. Numerous times I was hamstrung in my movement by the need to keep 8" synapse. Only once was I able to get an enemy within 8" SITW. Having deep striking flyrants would have been amazing. Any fleet trait would have been amazing (Particularly kraken, which I'm starting to lean very heavily towards). The more I play nids, and the more numbers I crunch, the more I'm thinking that putting 60 genestealers and 60 hormagaunts would be a completely legitimate core for a list. The Trygons are hard to measure... they hit like mack trucks and are super flexible, their durability is one of those things where if the opponent doesn't focus them, they will run amok, but they wither under serious pressure. I think they have a place in armies with deep striking flyrants, but I was consistently wishing I just had more genestealers. The 8" charge with them out of the hole, however, was used in every single game. Dakkagants are really nice, especially because people just don't want to waste firepower shooting them instead of genestealers, and meanwhile hormagaunts are just trolling around making friends with massive chunks of the enemy. Maybe 2 flyrants, 1 Trygon for dakkagants, and then lictors or Jormungandr raveners for 40-60 Genestealers. The Malanthrope is very, very hit or miss. Useless against dark reapers and smite spam, but actually helped keep up probably 10-15 hormagaunts/genestealers against the chaos player. It's a durable warlord that doesn't fold against any 100 pt deep striking disruption unit. I did wish I had more psykers/denies basically constantly though. Broodlords are just too fething expensive for 1cast/deny. I think I'll always keep 1 if I use stealers, but I'd rather have 13 more genestealers, or a neurothrope and 7 stealers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:


Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?


They're 0 now. Most weapons that cannot be swapped and are unique to a unit are 0. Trygon/prime electric pulse, pyrovore gear, exocrine gear, etc.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 05:51:55


Post by: Lance845


 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?


They're 0 now. Most weapons that cannot be swapped and are unique to a unit are 0. Trygon/prime electric pulse, pyrovore gear, exocrine gear, etc.


Riht. I assume that was true. But it's hard to tell anything on that spread sheet without that additional data. Tervigons went p 8 points.... k. But did their weapons change costs? Higher/ lower?

Exocrines look like they went up 66 points. Do they actually costs the same as before or cheaper? Hard to tell.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 05:56:34


Post by: Amishprn86


The weapons prices are there, its on another tab


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 06:00:12


Post by: Lance845


Ha1 my browesr had a bar down there and I completely missed those tabs. Thanks. Much more informative then I thought. Time to calculate my list then.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 06:04:36


Post by: Marmatag


Great batreps thanks for posting. Do you think you would have been better served with some of the ranged dakka we can bring now in the codex?

Also looks like we got a lot of melee weapon price cuts.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 06:45:15


Post by: DaBraken


 Overread wrote:
Generally speaking it sounds like you're about right. The Termagaunt with fleshbourer has always been the backbone staple for gaunts and having a bulk of them is very typical.

Devourers are indeed a touch more specialist for gaunts; you're losing out on numbers for a better gun so typically you do tend to see them appear less. I'd still aim to build up to a good solid 30 core of them to start with.

Spinfists have always been the choice of those looking to go for mass numbers; its the swarming choice for gaunts as its typically the cheapest gun for them. That said I've never been overly impressed with them; good if you can swarm well and get up close.


In previous editions spine fists were twin linked. Now they are not, and the amount of shots stayed the same. The loss in 1 str in comparison to flesh borers doesnt do the trick either, even if you could shoot spine fists now in close combat.

The biggest problem i got with them is to simply imagine a situation, in which you would prefer them over flesh borers or devourers.
Like, your 30 man squad of spine fist gaunts got charged by something. And somehow manages to survive this assault with decent numbers. So in your next turn you could shoot with them in close combat.
IF your squad has something like 20+ models, woohoo, around 3,9 wounds before safes for T4+. Oh yeah, so much damage, so much kill! MUAHA!
... rather fall back and shoot the enemy with something else out of combat.

If they doubled the ammount of shots to 2x A-profile for termagaunts, sure. But actually i dont see any use for spine fist gaunts. Suggestions?

Edit:
Only use i could see right now is to swarm shooty vehicles with them and doubletab their attacks in close combat. But hormagants could do this better...


 Lance845 wrote:


Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?


Most unique weapon options got merged into the modells base cost. So first look, most things go up in price, second look little price decrease.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 07:04:06


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Marmatag wrote:
Great batreps thanks for posting. Do you think you would have been better served with some of the ranged dakka we can bring now in the codex?

Also looks like we got a lot of melee weapon price cuts.


I kept thinking how much I wished I had flyrants for highly mobile shooting. My playstyle isn't super cohesive with dakkafex, though I definitely recognize their strength and viability. I need faster studf to reach past the stealers and horms, and dakkafex are just never really projecting where I want before turn 3. A flyrant could have put 12 shots each into 2 reaper squads and killed 2-4 each.

I think tyranids will either focus on stealers and tyrants for damage, or neuros and carnifex. The two pairs work really well together, imo. Hormagaunts are auto include for me in any list because of their crazy flexibility in tarpit. Dakkagaunts are a great tool as well, but dont hit nearly as hard as stealers so I can't envision using more than 1 unit.

I think a shooty list revolving around exo, tyranno and hive guard is also probably viable.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 07:20:32


Post by: Amishprn86


Tyrants can now have 24 shots as well, or 12 with ap.

You can buff it for 2 damage with 1cp as well, now that they can DS and has a 4++ they are worth another look at, but yaeah they are something like 70pts more than a dakkafex, 2 Dakka Flyrants are 3 Dakkafex's.

Shooting nids for sure will be Malanthropes with Exocrines, TF, DakkaFex and some Hive guard.

I personally will try to make Genestealers, Hgants work with some dakka, like hive guard, 2 dakka fex, 2 dakka tyrants and a melee tyrant, a little of both.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 09:43:50


Post by: svknoe


 Traceoftoxin wrote:


From best to worst

Versus T7 3+

If people want I'll make some of my spreadsheets publicly available and make some more digestible charts as images.


Nice overview! Here are a few more units that have good values too:

Termagaunt with devourer: 0.167 expected damage making 48pts/w.
Termagaunt with devourer (and reroll ones to wound): 0.194 expected damage making 41pts/w.
Broodlord: 6.481 expected damage making 25pts/w.
Genestealer with BL and 10+ models buff: 0.833 expected damage making 14pts/w.

Here are some pictures of a spreadsheet giving these values for most of our units versus a range of targets: https://imgur.com/a/VN5rY
Note that all these values are index values, and there is the odd error, such as the broodlord vs tough targets.

 Lance845 wrote:

Make those spread sheets. If you can write up a little thing to explain what its about and pm it to me as a little tutorial on it il add it to the first post. By monday i intend to have the first post reformatted to have a unit break down and data like this on it.


I have already made a comprehensive spreadsheet that is publicly available. It is an updated version of the one that produced the images above. I have not yet put the new codex rules into the sheet, but that should not be too hard to do. There is an input guide explaining how to use special rules such as rerolls and rending. Here it is:

https://github.com/svknoe/WH40k-Point-Efficiency-Calculator

I don't mean to detract from Traceoftoxins excellent work, but it might be easier to use this spreadsheet rather than writing a new one from scratch.

Edit: Fixed the values above for the devourer gaunts.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 10:13:05


Post by: Amishprn86


As a person with server double defiant disorder, i got an instant headache from some of that....


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 10:18:50


Post by: svknoe


I suppose that the picture could be more readable, but I'm not quite certain how to do it. I mostly use the spreadsheet myself. It is a bit easier to read.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 10:24:30


Post by: Amishprn86


Nah, its just me most likely lol


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 14:58:02


Post by: Lance845


svknoe wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Make those spread sheets. If you can write up a little thing to explain what its about and pm it to me as a little tutorial on it il add it to the first post. By monday i intend to have the first post reformatted to have a unit break down and data like this on it.


I have already made a comprehensive spreadsheet that is publicly available. It is an updated version of the one that produced the images above. I have not yet put the new codex rules into the sheet, but that should not be too hard to do. There is an input guide explaining how to use special rules such as rerolls and rending. Here it is:

https://github.com/svknoe/WH40k-Point-Efficiency-Calculator

I don't mean to detract from Traceoftoxins excellent work, but it might be easier to use this spreadsheet rather than writing a new one from scratch.


It was more his excellent breakdown of our anti tank options. The spread sheet on it's own can be a bit overwhelming But if he has the spread sheet with a little write up explaining what our options are and see whos best, especially because we lack a lot of the really high str stuff, it could go a long way towards helping any new guys.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 15:22:45


Post by: CDShaddock


Has anyone noticed you cannot buy Tyranid warriors anymore (outside of the last chance to buy get started box)? Seems very odd. I have already painted my first 50 PL of tyranids in Leviathan and warriors seem well positioned with a 4+/6++ FNP for that hive fleet.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 15:45:17


Post by: Lance845


CDShaddock wrote:
Has anyone noticed you cannot buy Tyranid warriors anymore (outside of the last chance to buy get started box)? Seems very odd. I have already painted my first 50 PL of tyranids in Leviathan and warriors seem well positioned with a 4+/6++ FNP for that hive fleet.


It's a combination of their systematic reboxing everything in 8th ed packaging and their production capabilities not meeting demand.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 16:32:23


Post by: Overread


It's also regional - GW UK has most Tyranid things in stock; but no guard its. Same for all armies at present' GW is simply beyond its current global production capabilities - which is good news because it means stuff is selling great.

Check ebay, local GW stores and 3rd parties as they might very well have stock.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 16:54:05


Post by: Timeshadow


So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 16:58:05


Post by: ThePorcupine


Maybe this has been discussed before and I'm probably late to the party, but...

3+ BS carnifex with two twin brain leech devourers put out 24 S6 shots at 18" (16 hits on average) for something like... 105 points according to the miniwargaming review?

Pardon my French, but what the bloody hell? This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost? And doesn't blow ass in combat.

If these points are anywhere near accurate, that's downright criminal. That's close to what a chimera costs haha.

Maybe I'm overreacting.. but I dunno, man. I know guard stuff is powerful, but they pay out the ass for it. A standard tank commander is like 213 points.

I guess it's Tyranids' turn in the spotlight.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 17:00:02


Post by: Niiai


Timeshadow wrote:
So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts


I am thinking warriors could be good. I was basing them on some of shuppets lists. Both him and mee have been ceen on warriors for a while.

After abandoning thoughts on the venom cannon, 20 points on to much, there is really no reason not to grab a barbed strangler on ever 3rd warrior. Statistikly they could be an anomalety on certain bad rolls. But They could also go high. +1 to hit vs 10 or more, pluss the extra 12" is just very good.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 17:08:35


Post by: Xenomancers


warriors needed a buff more than anything in the codex and they didn't get it. They are fun to play with and with strategems and a prime they will do fine in most games - there is almost no reason not to take termagants over them - they benefit more from their strategems and have more firepower and wounds per point.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 18:09:24


Post by: buddha


Warriors will still have a place in my list as synapse babysitters for my exocrine and hive guard. Dual boneswords and deathspitters in a troop slot is a nasty surprise for anyone trying to tie up my backfield. And if an opponent focuses them down whatevs, that's just less fire at my scary CC units.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 18:44:00


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 buddha wrote:
Warriors will still have a place in my list as synapse babysitters for my exocrine and hive guard. Dual boneswords and deathspitters in a troop slot is a nasty surprise for anyone trying to tie up my backfield. And if an opponent focuses them down whatevs, that's just less fire at my scary CC units.


24" range to shut off IB means you shouldn't need babysitters for your fire support any more.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 18:53:22


Post by: Tyran


I don't see how Termagants are better than Warriors. Warriors have better melee weapon, an option for anti-tank weapon, synapse and are tougher against small arms.

The only thing Termagants do better is anti-infantry firepower when equipped with devourers.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 18:54:11


Post by: Niiai


I have painted my units in leviathan, so I am looking for that 6+++.

I think zoanthropes, tyrant and cheap bodies will be taking advantage of the 6+++.

Warriors with 24/36 range in cover will be 3+ 6+++. Awsome.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 20:00:20


Post by: xmbk


ThePorcupine wrote:
Maybe this has been discussed before and I'm probably late to the party, but...

3+ BS carnifex with two twin brain leech devourers put out 24 S6 shots at 18" (16 hits on average) for something like... 105 points according to the miniwargaming review?

Pardon my French, but what the bloody hell? This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost? And doesn't blow ass in combat.

If these points are anywhere near accurate, that's downright criminal. That's close to what a chimera costs haha.

Maybe I'm overreacting.. but I dunno, man. I know guard stuff is powerful, but they pay out the ass for it. A standard tank commander is like 213 points.

I guess it's Tyranids' turn in the spotlight.


Did you just compare a carnie to a Hellhound?


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 20:28:54


Post by: Lance845


I was all about warriors and shrikes before. But now i know im going jorm and that means im all about them raveners now. Ive got 4 kits on order. Either 2 blobs of 6 or 3 blobs of 4/5 is my current plan.

And i have a hydracast red terror i thought i would never use. Now it just might get to shine.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 21:06:07


Post by: Niiai


Can somebody tell me the stats on the new venom cannon and heavy venom cannon? I have seen confliction information all over the place, and I don't know who has a good source, who is wrong, and who is right.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 21:19:35


Post by: pinecone77


 Niiai wrote:
Timeshadow wrote:
So with the new traits are warriors going to be more prevalent. The biggest negative most people complain about warriors is they die too easily. With a 6+ fnp or 3+ regular depending on fleet they can be pretty tough.

Now deathspitters are 5 pts 24" as well which is a nice buff as well. What does the hive mind think.

A unit of 3 with sything talons and deathspitters is only 81 pts


I am thinking warriors could be good. I was basing them on some of shuppets lists. Both him and mee have been ceen on warriors for a while.

After abandoning thoughts on the venom cannon, 20 points on to much, there is really no reason not to grab a barbed strangler on ever 3rd warrior. Statistikly they could be an anomalety on certain bad rolls. But They could also go high. +1 to hit vs 10 or more, pluss the extra 12" is just very good.
It's my favorite way to build them...I don't bother with magnets on Warriors so they mostly have the same "loadout" Rendin x3, Deathspitter x2, Strangle for each three. I also have a bunch with Devourers, Rending x2,,one strangle, and one set of Bonesabre per three.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 23:01:00


Post by: ThePorcupine


xmbk wrote:
Did you just compare a carnie to a Hellhound?

Yeah?... Considering the weapons and cost are very similar, and presumably you're buying a dakkafex for, you know, the dakka.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 23:20:48


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Niiai wrote:
Can somebody tell me the stats on the new venom cannon and heavy venom cannon? I have seen confliction information all over the place, and I don't know who has a good source, who is wrong, and who is right.


Venom cannon is s8, AP -2 Dd3, 20 pts
HVC is S9, AP-2 D3, 25 pts


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/05 23:23:11


Post by: Strat_N8


ThePorcupine wrote:

This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost?


To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 00:31:28


Post by: Traceoftoxin


 Strat_N8 wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:

This thing has DOUBLE the firepower of a hellhound for the same cost?


To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.


Taurox Prime is best comparison.

Taurox Prime T6, W10, BS3/4/5, Sv 3+, 14"/10"/6", 24" guns
Heavy 20 S4 AP0 D1
Heavy 8 S4 AP-2 D1
Rapid fire 2 S4 AP0 D1

97 pts

Carnifex at 115 is more durable (T7, -1 to hit), no degradation, slower with less range, not completely useless in combat. My inclination (without doing the math) is that against T7 (Since they both wound on 5s there) the taurox does more damage, but every other target the devourers should be better.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 00:42:40


Post by: ThePorcupine


 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.


Barebones Punisher is 150 points 43 BS4 shots (assuming moving 4.5 inches). 21 hits.
Carnifex in above example is 105 points, presumably. 16 hits.

The math actually comes out very close hits per points. You are correct. The thing is basically a grinding advance punisher with 24% less firepower but costs 30% less.

I guess it's a combination of shock that a melee horde army got basically a slightly better copy of one of the best shooting units in the game, and that, even after the buff, the hellhound falls quite short.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 01:55:23


Post by: luke1705


Every list I make starts out at like 3k because there are so many things I want to include!!!




EDIT: I'm still not convinced that we can deal with IG because I think they still have too many screening bodies. Our shooting from the Exocrine and the Hive Guard is really nice though. I'm very excited to try so many things out. Never thought the Nad version of Kan wall would EVER be viable again and I have never been happier to be wrong.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 02:29:44


Post by: buddha


With Kronos we are the scissors to eldars paper. The problem is guard seems to be the rock to our scissors. I'm feeling like we need a good mix of gribbles to tie tanks and screens up and heavy hitters to get through all those T7-8 tank wounds to have a chance against guard.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 02:34:24


Post by: Niiai


ThePorcupine wrote:
 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be fair, it has 3 less wounds and moves 5'' slower while being a Heavy Support choice. A Leman Russ Punisher is probably a more fair comparison.


Barebones Punisher is 150 points 43 BS4 shots (assuming moving 4.5 inches). 21 hits.
Carnifex in above example is 105 points, presumably. 16 hits.

The math actually comes out very close hits per points. You are correct. The thing is basically a grinding advance punisher with 24% less firepower but costs 30% less.

I guess it's a combination of shock that a melee horde army got basically a slightly better copy of one of the best shooting units in the game, and that, even after the buff, the hellhound falls quite short.


I would not call tyranids a mellee horde army. Mind you I only played 5th and 6th edition. 5th edition mellee horde just died to parking lots. Only scratching the paint. Carnifex where over prised. Everything attacked at I1 because of the terrible terain rules. The hive guards where the only help in 5th edition.

6th edition was the age of flyers. 3 twin linked lascannon vendateas every where that melee hordes can not scratch.

Perhaps melee hordes where good in 7th edition. But we have not been a melee horde army for a long time. We have good shooting on units that happen to be ok in melee. 8th edition have so far opened up for more versatile armies. Maiby even melee hordes can make a combat. But that is not how I would describe tyranids. Never leave jole without hive guards.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 03:11:05


Post by: luke1705


Hive guard is actually the unit that I'm waffling over whether or not to include. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm pretty sure that I can focus exclusively on weapons that kill screening units (dakka flyrants and/or dakka fexes) and then pod in swarmy to move a unit of Kraken stealers in to do some horrible horrible things. And then do the same thing on turn 2 and or turn 3.

I'm just not sure I can clear enough screening models to make this work.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 03:21:09


Post by: Niiai


 luke1705 wrote:
Hive guard is actually the unit that I'm waffling over whether or not to include. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm pretty sure that I can focus exclusively on weapons that kill screening units (dakka flyrants and/or dakka fexes) and then pod in swarmy to move a unit of Kraken stealers in to do some horrible horrible things. And then do the same thing on turn 2 and or turn 3.

I'm just not sure I can clear enough screening models to make this work.


Perosnally I just think the 'shoot twice' stratgem is to good to not have a unit to use it on. In can only be used on infantery. If you need to kill something big and fatt that stratagem + hiveguards sounds good.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 04:20:48


Post by: Tyran


A full unit of devilgants with the shoot twice stratagem should do a nice amount of damage to fodder, and we have plenty of ways to deliver that to the enemy.

Another option is to go crazy with big monsters with a list full of Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 04:37:05


Post by: pinecone77


Something I've goofing around with...mostly because I like the name...


Hail Hydra! Hive Fleet Hydra

HQ: Tervigons x2, one is Warlord (Regen)
HQ: Nuerothrope

Troops, Termagantsx20, x3
Troops: Hormagauntsx25, x2
Troops: Rippers

FA: Gargoyles x10, x3

Elites...Lictors x3?

Heavy: Carnifexen? Mawlocs?

Then take a Supreme Command or Spearhead etc Maybe x3 Hive Tyrants? And some Tyrant Guards? I think I'd want three Winged, kitted for both shooting, and CC.

Hydras "thing" is outnumber in the fight phase, so mass advance, then charge....as simple as it comes.


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 04:52:17


Post by: luke1705


Tyran wrote:
A full unit of devilgants with the shoot twice stratagem should do a nice amount of damage to fodder, and we have plenty of ways to deliver that to the enemy.

Another option is to go crazy with big monsters with a list full of Dakkafexes, Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.


Actually I really like the devil gant idea. I didn’t run the numbers before because they died to an Alpha strike and delivery methods were too expensive, but now we can just jormungdr them and then....ravener or lictor them into place right? That seems pretty solid. It’s actually our single best anti infantry unit for just piling on wounds. Heck, even just throwing wounds onto Magnus or Mortarion is no joke. Morty takes 7-8 wounds on average (that’s how many FNP he fails, I mean). Even at -1 to hit, he’s looking at 5 failed FNP. Magnus takes 7 wounds even with his invuln increased and the assumed 6+ FNP warlord trait. Magnus with 3++ re-rolling 1’s and a changeling nearby is 4.5 failed FNP.

Like I’m really not mad at that output.

Is there any way to put them into reserves except for Jormungdr or a Trygon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops I did my math wrong. Was re-rolling 1’s to hit, not to wound. I think it’s a little worse but it’s in that same ballpark I think (+/- like 1 wound)


Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured @ 2017/11/06 05:12:34


Post by: Timeshadow


I am thinking a big warrior unit with dearhspittersx6 and venom cannons x3 all rending claws is 288pts add a prime say 112 ish is 400 even. Thats 21(inc prime) deathspitter shots and 3d3 venom cannon shots that can have the shoot twice start cast on them. It's pricy but looks like it could be very effective. Oh and if they are kronos reroll 1s not too bad.