Right. Them melta lads are going to be meta-defining. What’s our play against T5, W3, 3+, occasional 6+++ Chapter trait, 24”, 5+D6”?
Each one that dies is two shots stopped.
Biovores could potentially slow them down. Outflanking a counter unit might be the key. Acidfex is too short ranged and only kills one. Use Symbiotic Devastation and the Exocrine takes two down. Add Pathogenic slime and it deletes the unit. It’d have to have to bring or rendezvous with a screen, and beware the Auspex stratagem. But once it’s in position, it can just turret for the rest of the game, and anyone who actually reaches it has to kill it or get shotgunned. That’s all for, what, 5CP? If another unit can take out one of them, you can save the 2CP on pathogenic slime. All this depends upon them actually being within reach - potentially tricky in a 3K game, given that we’re back to 2ed’s 8ft tables in that case. But when that’s the case, it does actually buffalo them on range - it too can double tap after advancing, and it marginally outpaces them. If it’s Kraken, it can pretty easily run them down (in fact, it might not even need to outflank, especially if the enemy doesn’t have a long ranged anti-tank trump card).
*Page 88 – Old One Eye, Alpha Leader
Add the following to the end of this ability:
‘In addition, while any other friendly <Hive Fleet> Carnifex
units are within 3” of this model, enemy models cannot target
this model with ranged attacks.’
Now, that is interesting. If OOE is standing in front of a bunch of fexen, can you compel your opponent to activate his WLT with a smite, then deny shooting at him? Probably an oversight to be clarified...
A little off target, but I was looking at the FAQ for our Brood Brothers, and it makes it pretty dang clear that the whole AM list is available, And they Do get orders, they only lose Regimental mods. So they could be a useful add to an early invastion tendril of the Hive Mind> Page 108 I believe...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also grabbing the middle seems to be a major part of new missions, so Sporocyste might be a supprise MVP on some missions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarHunter25 wrote: Why did GW nerf Lictors??? Losing their -1 to hit just makes them die faster. I smell Cruddace's all over that one.
Also, Tyrranofex I think is the only thing to keep its move & fire heavy weapons ability. GW really doesn't like nids do they...
I'm not sure they lost much, because you can't mod more than One, so they get -1 (possibly) from cover, And +1 armor save....?
StarHunter25 wrote: Why did GW nerf Lictors??? Losing their -1 to hit just makes them die faster. I smell Cruddace's all over that one.
Also, Tyrranofex I think is the only thing to keep its move & fire heavy weapons ability. GW really doesn't like nids do they...
I'm not sure they lost much, because you can't mod more than One, so they get -1 (possibly) from cover, And +1 armor save....?
They outright lost their -1 to hit, (-2 for deathleaper), and get +1 to their 5+ armor save against shooting, while they benefit from cover. They were a meme unit in 8th, there to stop overwatch with their BoB strat. Now they're just trash without a meme.
People were making a drop pod Exocrine work in 8th. Outflanking seems a much less costly way of doing the same thing, and allows you to keep Dermic Symbiosis for monsters starting on the board. Triple Exocrine anyone? Or is that overdoing it? Haha. I’ll definitely be prioritising one outflanking Exocrine at the very least, to help deal with at least one squad of Eradicators. I really think they are kinda universally useful though, three might not be too bad especially since they can gun their way out of combat in a worst case situation.
With less space on the board, we definitely need to screen them as was said. Kraken Gargs or even just Gants can quickly rush up the field in rows of two and block off the middle of the board turn 1 to stop things without fly from coming past. Sporocysts barely went up as well, and as someone else mentioned, they have a nice big footprint and spawn more movement blockers every turn that they aren’t dealt with. They will kinda get melted by Eradicators, but whatever even one turn of them not firing at Exocrines or whatever might make all the difference.
Hive Guard are also a shoe-in. LoS free shooting is by all accounts, much stronger now. They didn’t go up drastically and were already probably the best one offensively, limited only by 36” range - a limit that means much less now we have an emphasis on scoring and smaller boards.
A CC counterpunch might be nice and I still can’t think of anything better than Old One Eye, even with the nerfed character rule he shouldn’t be too hard to keep safe, and he can shift anything but a GEQ blob from out of our backline. As for dealing with GEQ in too deep, I don’t know if Genestealers are justifiable at the new price especially with a Kraken detachment being much less desirable, the only other attractive thing available to me is some Warrior units.
GSC allies now that they can take AM in the same detachment, might be interesting. A Wyvern or two could be really helpful for flattening out the board a little vs any sort of blobs. A Patriarch always helps slice and dice, and an Acolyte bomb held till turn 3 may be a good security blanket that also helps out offensively once the board is a bit thinner. (Hell even Purestrains aren’t out of the question now that they are just two pts more expensive than Genestealers and harder to dig out in the end turns than acolytes?).
And of course I’d just fill all the rest of the pts out with Gants.
Tyran wrote: It is likely an oversight, but the Deathleaper still has its -2 to hit.
They've mentioned that a few models kept -2, but all it does is force the enemy to get two +1 modifers to cancel out the -1, since you you do the add/subtract before capping things at +1/-1
Spoletta wrote: That sucks and is probably an oversight on the FAQ, but they weren't really taken for that.
Also, they now are one of our best units. For 2 CP they can deepstrike 30 hormagaunts or stuff like that.
Also the current FAQ alows dropping the Lictor, and scent trailing in the other unit in the same turn. That could be a very useful tool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I plan to take a hard look at MSU Warriors, and MSU Stealers, both look promising....on paper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: What do we reckon the deal is with the Dimachaeron this edition? New rules make it behave any better?
Hard to say. I suspect it'll get a new statline sometime down the line. You might have to test it out some to see. But most metas seem to have massive AT firepower as the norm.
I plan to take a hard look at MSU Warriors, and MSU Stealers, both look promising....on paper.
Ha. I actually think MSU stealers look great now. Planning on running a couple of them in Kronos, dug into terrain pieces to push off anything that makes it into the gunline.
I never thought I'd say this but... I think Raveners are better than genestealers to push enemies of objectives.
For broods of 5, it's 75 for stealers or 110 for raveners.
5 t4 wounds vs 15
15 rending claws vs 25 ScyTals
(8+d6)"+charge vs 12"+charge
Raveners are also a decent candidate for Enhanced Resistance. I tend to run Gorgon, so 25 attacks rerolling 1's to hit & wound, with potential AP-1 from Gorgon's psychic power. I'm desperate to find something we can do this edition. It might be time to give our fast attack section a second look.
StarHunter25 wrote: I never thought I'd say this but... I think Raveners are better than genestealers to push enemies of objectives.
For broods of 5, it's 75 for stealers or 110 for raveners.
5 t4 wounds vs 15
15 rending claws vs 25 ScyTals
(8+d6)"+charge vs 12"+charge
Raveners are also a decent candidate for Enhanced Resistance. I tend to run Gorgon, so 25 attacks rerolling 1's to hit & wound, with potential AP-1 from Gorgon's psychic power. I'm desperate to find something we can do this edition. It might be time to give our fast attack section a second look.
Except Raveners are not ObSec like Genestealers are whom also fill a troop slot.
StarHunter25 wrote: I never thought I'd say this but... I think Raveners are better than genestealers to push enemies of objectives.
For broods of 5, it's 75 for stealers or 110 for raveners.
5 t4 wounds vs 15
15 rending claws vs 25 ScyTals
(8+d6)"+charge vs 12"+charge
Raveners are also a decent candidate for Enhanced Resistance. I tend to run Gorgon, so 25 attacks rerolling 1's to hit & wound, with potential AP-1 from Gorgon's psychic power. I'm desperate to find something we can do this edition. It might be time to give our fast attack section a second look.
At that point difference it’s 3 for the price of two. So similar amount of attacks. The difference being made up by Stealers getting Rending Claws. Stealers also hit on 2+ around Broodlord. And they are obsec, helping immensely for chopping other obsec units down then having more on there. Still, does look decent for Raveners tho
Don't forget raveners either have 5 attacks with double s ScyTals or 4 with rending claws. Furthermore, 5 genestealers with a broodlord is 200 points now. 5 raveners with red terror are 165. Is the synapse + smite really worth the extra 35 points to us?
Plus, if rending claws are that important, 175 for 20 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 5 s5 ScyTals vs 200 for 15 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 6 monstrous rending. Is the broodlord better then Red Terror? Yes absolutely. But he's also over 2x the price, and taking up a valuable HQ spot. I should be getting a game in this weekend. I'll happen to have 5 raveners, I'll just need to figure out Red Terror.
StarHunter25 wrote: I never thought I'd say this but... I think Raveners are better than genestealers to push enemies of objectives.
For broods of 5, it's 75 for stealers or 110 for raveners.
5 t4 wounds vs 15
15 rending claws vs 25 ScyTals
(8+d6)"+charge vs 12"+charge
Raveners are also a decent candidate for Enhanced Resistance. I tend to run Gorgon, so 25 attacks rerolling 1's to hit & wound, with potential AP-1 from Gorgon's psychic power. I'm desperate to find something we can do this edition. It might be time to give our fast attack section a second look.
Well I think Counter charges will be an important tactic thic game so you can do that. I think most play will be 1) Shoot foe off VP point, 2) Run something durable onto it,3) Counter-charge what the foe charges with, repeat till turn 5. If you have buff CC units then chaging onto a VP will be a thing. So Cults might do that, then use Flamers to overwatch. Time will tell...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarHunter25 wrote: Don't forget raveners either have 5 attacks with double s ScyTals or 4 with rending claws. Furthermore, 5 genestealers with a broodlord is 200 points now. 5 raveners with red terror are 165. Is the synapse + smite really worth the extra 35 points to us?
Plus, if rending claws are that important, 175 for 20 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 5 s5 ScyTals vs 200 for 15 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 6 monstrous rending. Is the broodlord better then Red Terror? Yes absolutely. But he's also over 2x the price, and taking up a valuable HQ spot. I should be getting a game in this weekend. I'll happen to have 5 raveners, I'll just need to figure out Red Terror.
I hear if you paint one Ravener Red, it'll go Fasta!
pinecone77 wrote: A little off target, but I was looking at the FAQ for our Brood Brothers, and it makes it pretty dang clear that the whole AM list is available, And they Do get orders, they only lose Regimental mods. So they could be a useful add to an early invastion tendril of the Hive Mind> Page 108 I believe...
The rule blurp in the GSC faction focus is the same as in the 8th edition codex.
The preceding italic fluff bit makes it seem different but the rules haven't changed.
StarHunter25 wrote: Don't forget raveners either have 5 attacks with double s ScyTals or 4 with rending claws. Furthermore, 5 genestealers with a broodlord is 200 points now. 5 raveners with red terror are 165. Is the synapse + smite really worth the extra 35 points to us?
Plus, if rending claws are that important, 175 for 20 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 5 s5 ScyTals vs 200 for 15 rending claws hitting on 2+, plus 6 monstrous rending. Is the broodlord better then Red Terror? Yes absolutely. But he's also over 2x the price, and taking up a valuable HQ spot. I should be getting a game in this weekend. I'll happen to have 5 raveners, I'll just need to figure out Red Terror.
Then it’s 45 Stealer attacks with Rending Claws vs 50 Scytal attacks or 40 Rending Claw attacks. I think this is actually in genestealer favor. Also this is completely ignoring the free Acid Maws which are obviously better than both.
As for the Broodlord, he’s an excellent inclusion in his own right. Especially the first one that can be given Resonance Barb. He’s basically a speedy Neurothrope that can slice and dice in combat, and buffing the Genestealers is just a free bonus. I don’t think it’s fair to attribute his cost to the Stealers, many people run Broodlords even without them, and the points changes were extremely gentle with him with only 8% points increase which is basically a buff at this point. The Stealers being liable to benefit from his aura is just an advantage they have that Raveners don’t that merits mention. Didn’t say Raveners are bad or anything.
How do we feel about the "summon unit" abilities the Tyranids get?
For instance, imagine building your list to 1500 points and having 500 reserve points.
You could effectively have a sideboard to your army.
Sporefield and call the brood (3CP each) summon units that aren't on your roster.
Endless swarm brings units back within ANY board edge (2CP) and can bring back ANY Hydra infantry (Hive Guard, Warlords, Death Leaper).
Pheromone trail can allow reserved units to deploy around any lictor.
Imagine the damage pyrovores could do dropping in and nuking units, dying, and doing it again? With blast weapon changes and the ability to double shoot and deep strike within flamer range... it's tasty.
They also have 4 wounds each.
Sporefield could buy massive early game real estate in combination with sporocysts.
There are some new frontiers in 9th that we should explore.
I'm interested in the timing of reserve units coming onto the table and our ability to put them anywhere in some cases.
Two Dermic Exocrines and Hive Guard on table, third Exocrine in outflank
90 defensive / scoring bodies
Plus a couple of Stealer units, Broodlord and Old One Eye fit either into terrain pieces to defend the gun line, or outflanking to get past TFC gak, or just applying offensive pressure or pushing things off objectives depending on MU
Not sure how good the static Exocrines will be on denser boards but I suspect/hope it may actually be to their favor and allow them to carve out lanes that Primaris boys have to come at piecemeal, rather than them getting lit up by the entire hostile deployment at once. Hive Guard are gonna be annoying as hell to deal with though and if need be I'll just drop the two non-outflanking Exocrine for a second full Hive Guard squad lol
H.B.M.C. wrote: Presumably the 'Stealer units are 8 to get that second Acid Maw?
Exactly, also fitting a couple extra bodies in there won't hurt them from being able to hide, and means they can be relied on a little more than 5 man gangs
Carnikang wrote: Why Terms instead of Rippers?
At least in place of the smaller units.
Easier to hide, comparable wounds, cheaper?
I'm running Kronos with 3 Exocrines and 6 Hive Guard. Rippers are nice but I really need to dedicate a lot of my army to supporting that investment. 90 bodies is right where I'll like to be on that one. I really want to blank out and control as much of the board as possible. This isn't Nidzilla with Dakkafex and Tyrannofex who can push their own way through enemy infantry problems. If I feel like I need less after playtesting though, I'll definitely swap a unit of Termagants for Rippers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially with everything being able to outflank, covering the back and middle of the board is gonna be important
I was thinking about outflankimg Exocrines and it occured to me that with with Lurking Maws having no max ramge you fould use a backfield Neurothrope to give an outflanking Jormungandr Exocrine rerolls to hit the turn he lands.
I don't think it is worth building a list around, but if you are already running Jormungandr for something like 2+ Warriors or 'fexes it's a nice perk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that you can do the same with Shock Guard. 6d3 average is 12 shots, 9 hits, reroll for 2 more hits. 11 hits is 5.5 mortals plus whatver the S7 AP-1 d3 gun does. Double tapping that expects to kill most non-Knight armor in the game, at the cost of 3 CP and being Jormungandr.
Carnikang wrote: Why Terms instead of Rippers?
At least in place of the smaller units.
Easier to hide, comparable wounds, cheaper?
I'm running Kronos with 3 Exocrines and 6 Hive Guard. Rippers are nice but I really need to dedicate a lot of my army to supporting that investment. 90 bodies is right where I'll like to be on that one. I really want to blank out and control as much of the board as possible. This isn't Nidzilla with Dakkafex and Tyrannofex who can push their own way through enemy infantry problems. If I feel like I need less after playtesting though, I'll definitely swap a unit of Termagants for Rippers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially with everything being able to outflank, covering the back and middle of the board is gonna be important
With the new 'units with 6+ models need to be in coherency with 2 models'- rule, I think I'am gonna pick rippers instead of gaunts. The footprint is almost the same and at least the rippers can deepstrike.
@Nitro: What do you think about the Scythed Hierodule now? I think it's got a lot more potential in 9th. It could even outflank the second turn to make sure it got al the bonuses (Catalyst etc..).
Carnikang wrote: Why Terms instead of Rippers?
At least in place of the smaller units.
Easier to hide, comparable wounds, cheaper?
I'm running Kronos with 3 Exocrines and 6 Hive Guard. Rippers are nice but I really need to dedicate a lot of my army to supporting that investment. 90 bodies is right where I'll like to be on that one. I really want to blank out and control as much of the board as possible. This isn't Nidzilla with Dakkafex and Tyrannofex who can push their own way through enemy infantry problems. If I feel like I need less after playtesting though, I'll definitely swap a unit of Termagants for Rippers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially with everything being able to outflank, covering the back and middle of the board is gonna be important
With the new 'units with 6+ models need to be in coherency with 2 models'- rule, I think I'am gonna pick rippers instead of gaunts. The footprint is almost the same and at least the rippers can deepstrike.
@Nitro: What do you think about the Scythed Hierodule now? I think it's got a lot more potential in 9th. It could even outflank the second turn to make sure it got al the bonuses (Catalyst etc..).
interesting point on the Rippers when you take into account coherency. One problem is they also take a lot more pounding from multi-damage weapons, and with Termagants you can just rest easy that they have to chew through them the old fashioned way. But I might grab one anyway.
Not sold on the Hierodule in 9th. 3CP just to take him is rough. 3 more to outflank him is even rougher. Its at 470 pts now too.... that's gone from a 5th of a list to a quarter of a list basically. Malanthrope aura is so much weaker now that it does nothing against Heavy weapons that have to move to get an angle, and doesn't stack with the Horror (which is a similar story).... Outflanking Hierodule might be an interesting experiment but his biggest strength is his movespeed anyway and the fact that he could dip in and out of combats and back to safety and is active from the opening turns - outflanking him just spends CP to waste all that.
Carnikang wrote: Why Terms instead of Rippers?
At least in place of the smaller units.
Easier to hide, comparable wounds, cheaper?
I'm running Kronos with 3 Exocrines and 6 Hive Guard. Rippers are nice but I really need to dedicate a lot of my army to supporting that investment. 90 bodies is right where I'll like to be on that one. I really want to blank out and control as much of the board as possible. This isn't Nidzilla with Dakkafex and Tyrannofex who can push their own way through enemy infantry problems. If I feel like I need less after playtesting though, I'll definitely swap a unit of Termagants for Rippers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially with everything being able to outflank, covering the back and middle of the board is gonna be important
With the new 'units with 6+ models need to be in coherency with 2 models'- rule, I think I'am gonna pick rippers instead of gaunts. The footprint is almost the same and at least the rippers can deepstrike.
@Nitro: What do you think about the Scythed Hierodule now? I think it's got a lot more potential in 9th. It could even outflank the second turn to make sure it got al the bonuses (Catalyst etc..).
interesting point on the Rippers when you take into account coherency. One problem is they also take a lot more pounding from multi-damage weapons, and with Termagants you can just rest easy that they have to chew through them the old fashioned way. But I might grab one anyway.
I get that, got to see how it play's out. I think I like it when the multi damage weapons are shooting at my rippers instead of my big beasties.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Not sold on the Hierodule in 9th. 3CP just to take him is rough. 3 more to outflank him is even rougher. Its at 470 pts now too.... that's gone from a 5th of a list to a quarter of a list basically. Malanthrope aura is so much weaker now that it does nothing against Heavy weapons that have to move to get an angle, and doesn't stack with the Horror (which is a similar story).... Outflanking Hierodule might be an interesting experiment but his biggest strength is his movespeed anyway and the fact that he could dip in and out of combats and back to safety and is active from the opening turns - outflanking him just spends CP to waste all that.
I believe the Hierodule talons are +0 points now? Isn't it 410 points total? If it is 470 points then i would drop it for sure... I think I like the ' outflank' option just to be sure to get the Catalyst going. And also the flexibility for fielding it left or right. If is more likely to survive the amount of enemy shooting because every army is more expensive to field so it will be like facing a 1800 point (8th) army.
It all depends on how the meta is going to evolve. Could be a point sink or a great battering ram.
If those gun's aren't shooting at the Hierodule they don't just disappear, they are tearing your other stuff to shreds instead, while the Hierodule sits on the sidelines. Hierodule worked thanks to a combination of threat saturation in Nidzilla, stacking defensive buffs on him / minus to hit on key threats to him, and by ensuring he ended his turns either safely locked in combat, or beneath a Malanthrope umbrella. He was an active threat from the opening turns which allowed you to leverage more from the rest of the Nidzilla, or just get away with murdering stuff and jumping back to safety. Spending 3 CP to outflank just completely defeats the purpose of the unit, imo. Especially since he has a good chance of not even making the charge from outflank, when before you could use his speed to all but guarantee it.
At 410 pts I may reconsider. But honestly outflanking two Stone Crushers or even just playing Old One Eye, is probably better for what you're trying to do.
I'm thinking that the optimal squad size for warriors is going to be 6, to grab that second heavy weapon.
Sure, some could say that in that way you are exposing yourself to maxed d3 weapons, but it's actually not true. Weapons are resolved one at a time, so if the opponent shoots you with 20 missile pods, he gets to max those shots only until the first warrior is gone.
You only pay in terms of keepeing coherency until you lose a bug.
Hello, i'm asking for advice about Leviathan hive fleet, what is the most competitive build available for them? I know that the Kraken genestealers are very good (and i've played before with Behemoth), but for fluff reason i'm intrested about Leviathan. And tournaments in my local area does not usually allow Forge World models.
babelfish wrote: I was thinking about outflankimg Exocrines and it occured to me that with with Lurking Maws having no max ramge you fould use a backfield Neurothrope to give an outflanking Jormungandr Exocrine rerolls to hit the turn he lands.
I don't think it is worth building a list around, but if you are already running Jormungandr for something like 2+ Warriors or 'fexes it's a nice perk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that you can do the same with Shock Guard. 6d3 average is 12 shots, 9 hits, reroll for 2 more hits. 11 hits is 5.5 mortals plus whatver the S7 AP-1 d3 gun does. Double tapping that expects to kill most non-Knight armor in the game, at the cost of 3 CP and being Jormungandr.
Erm... How do you get 9 hits from 12 shots before rerolls? It should be 8.
Average number of hits is 10.67, so your end result isn't really wrong, I just noticed that that was wrong.
Spreelock wrote: Hello, i'm asking for advice about Leviathan hive fleet, what is the most competitive build available for them? I know that the Kraken genestealers are very good (and i've played before with Behemoth), but for fluff reason i'm intrested about Leviathan. And tournaments in my local area does not usually allow Forge World models.
First of, everything is up in the air. The double change of rules and point increase means we do not know.
I have runn some leviathan. Gaunt blockades are more anoying then usual (as they do not die as expected, and of course all tyranids are fearless when done right.)
The real treat with leviathan though is in my opinion warriors. Warriors are better under leviathan then others (depending if you can get cover or not) but 3 damage weapons do not like the 6+++.
The stratagem is also very good if you manage to find a flying model. (Hive tyrant, gargoyles and neoronthropes comes to mind.) It is very point effective.
Leviathan can not hold a candle to kraken stealers. But are stealers so good in 9th? Usually kraken stealers used to lock you in with 40 stealers, swarmlord and broodlord. You do not need to lock in to that at leviathan.
babelfish wrote: 6 outflanking Zoanthropes double smiting for 8+ mortal wounds could be useful.
We already know that the double smite is getting fixed, I wouldn't bank on that.
What is your source of this information?
Apparently some of the playtesters said that it was going to be changed/FAQ'd.
I don't think you really need a source for that. It's pretty likely to happen based on past behaviour.... but if you want to buy and paint six new zoeys, fill your pockets
I'm looking forward to this new edition. 3rd and 4th edition, with their LoS blocking terrain were much more games of manouvre - assuming you had any terrain as boards back then were notoriously empty - and the new rules send us much more in that direction. Compared to that world, fire-power is more destructive, but tyranid pieces are also faster. So I am optimistic there is more opportunity to play the game and not the list.
Spreelock wrote: Hello, i'm asking for advice about Leviathan hive fleet, what is the most competitive build available for them? I know that the Kraken genestealers are very good (and i've played before with Behemoth), but for fluff reason i'm intrested about Leviathan. And tournaments in my local area does not usually allow Forge World models.
First of, everything is up in the air. The double change of rules and point increase means we do not know.
I have runn some leviathan. Gaunt blockades are more anoying then usual (as they do not die as expected, and of course all tyranids are fearless when done right.)
The real treat with leviathan though is in my opinion warriors. Warriors are better under leviathan then others (depending if you can get cover or not) but 3 damage weapons do not like the 6+++.
The stratagem is also very good if you manage to find a flying model. (Hive tyrant, gargoyles and neoronthropes comes to mind.) It is very point effective.
Leviathan can not hold a candle to kraken stealers. But are stealers so good in 9th? Usually kraken stealers used to lock you in with 40 stealers, swarmlord and broodlord. You do not need to lock in to that at leviathan.
Hey, thanks. I'll have to look into those Warriors again, their stratagem is just highly situational (the Leviathan one), but their psychic power seems decent. I was thinking about swarmlord, with support of tyrant guard and venomthropes.
Spreelock wrote: Hello, i'm asking for advice about Leviathan hive fleet, what is the most competitive build available for them? I know that the Kraken genestealers are very good (and i've played before with Behemoth), but for fluff reason i'm intrested about Leviathan. And tournaments in my local area does not usually allow Forge World models.
First of, everything is up in the air. The double change of rules and point increase means we do not know.
I have runn some leviathan. Gaunt blockades are more anoying then usual (as they do not die as expected, and of course all tyranids are fearless when done right.)
The real treat with leviathan though is in my opinion warriors. Warriors are better under leviathan then others (depending if you can get cover or not) but 3 damage weapons do not like the 6+++.
The stratagem is also very good if you manage to find a flying model. (Hive tyrant, gargoyles and neoronthropes comes to mind.) It is very point effective.
Leviathan can not hold a candle to kraken stealers. But are stealers so good in 9th? Usually kraken stealers used to lock you in with 40 stealers, swarmlord and broodlord. You do not need to lock in to that at leviathan.
Hey, thanks. I'll have to look into those Warriors again, their stratagem is just highly situational (the Leviathan one), but their psychic power seems decent. I was thinking about swarmlord, with support of tyrant guard and venomthropes.
Leviathan has a psykick power? It is not a good one.
Yeah, I think it was called hive Nexus, which boosts all synapse. I'll guess it's not that useful if the only synapse are tyrants (as they already have 18").
babelfish wrote: I was thinking about outflankimg Exocrines and it occured to me that with with Lurking Maws having no max ramge you fould use a backfield Neurothrope to give an outflanking Jormungandr Exocrine rerolls to hit the turn he lands.
I don't think it is worth building a list around, but if you are already running Jormungandr for something like 2+ Warriors or 'fexes it's a nice perk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that you can do the same with Shock Guard. 6d3 average is 12 shots, 9 hits, reroll for 2 more hits. 11 hits is 5.5 mortals plus whatver the S7 AP-1 d3 gun does. Double tapping that expects to kill most non-Knight armor in the game, at the cost of 3 CP and being Jormungandr.
Erm... How do you get 9 hits from 12 shots before rerolls? It should be 8.
Average number of hits is 10.67, so your end result isn't really wrong, I just noticed that that was wrong.
I drink beer before doing math, as is tradition. Also, whoops.
I've played a couple of games in 9th, and have found Warriors to be unexpectedly effective. The multi-role idea where they paid for both shooting and melee ability was a detriment in 8th, but in 9th it makes them a lot better at controlling the midfield- with Deathspitters and Boneswords, 3x S5AP-1 shots + 4x S4AP-2 swings apiece does a fair bit of damage.
They're also the best candidate for running as Leviathan. Because of how FNPs on multi-wound models interact with multi-damage weapons, Leviathan actually gives them a 42% durability upgrade against 3 Damage weapons rather than the 20% you would normally expect. Combine with Enhanced Resistance and Unyielding Chitin, preferably while in cover and/or obscured, and they become quite difficult to remove for their cost.
I'm probably going to keep running mine in broods of 9 (although I usually play Kraken). The extra damage from Blast is annoying, but Venom Cannons are probably our most versatile weapon, and with them now being Blast as well they're a must-have IMO.
From what I've seen it looks like the Scythed Hierodule is 470pts now (no free Talons), and I agree with Nitro Zeus that between the core rule changes and CP cost it's basically dead in the water. Here's hoping for better rules/points in the new IA.
Okay, so multiwound models are way to go, but should I focus on that or is the swarm any viable option? Like, gaunts and genestealers? I'd like to include some cheap chaff, but if that's not competitive, i'll have to re-consider my strategy.
babelfish wrote: I was thinking about outflankimg Exocrines and it occured to me that with with Lurking Maws having no max ramge you fould use a backfield Neurothrope to give an outflanking Jormungandr Exocrine rerolls to hit the turn he lands.
I don't think it is worth building a list around, but if you are already running Jormungandr for something like 2+ Warriors or 'fexes it's a nice perk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that you can do the same with Shock Guard. 6d3 average is 12 shots, 9 hits, reroll for 2 more hits. 11 hits is 5.5 mortals plus whatver the S7 AP-1 d3 gun does. Double tapping that expects to kill most non-Knight armor in the game, at the cost of 3 CP and being Jormungandr.
Erm... How do you get 9 hits from 12 shots before rerolls? It should be 8.
Average number of hits is 10.67, so your end result isn't really wrong, I just noticed that that was wrong.
I drink beer before doing math, as is tradition. Also, whoops.
Eh, no biggie. It's easy to make math mistakes-just didn't want it to go uncorrected.
Spreelock wrote: Okay, so multiwound models are way to go, but should I focus on that or is the swarm any viable option? Like, gaunts and genestealers? I'd like to include some cheap chaff, but if that's not competitive, i'll have to re-consider my strategy.
I don't think chaff is without value, if anything screens are more useful. But the chaff likely needs to be in smaller batches. 11+ is very weak to blast, so I would suggest 10x in the gaunts then run MSU Warriors for full synapse coverage. Then add Big Bugs as you wish.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think both x3, and x6 Warrior Broods should work well. a big x9 might work for a hammer strike unit.
Niiai wrote: What are you chaffing against? Only orks and very select unit charge nids.
I don't think its a case of chaff as defensive fodder, more that flooding the board with 8 or 9 10 man units of cheap gaunts gives a big board control advantage.
Yes, each individual unit is easy to kill, but with terrain and missions, blocking out that number of bodies is going to be difficult.
I think the definition of "horde" is going to change from big units of 30 to lots and lots of small units of 10, frankly i think brigades are where nid will be in 9th.
On that subject, I personally think multiple small units of gargoyles will be effective for early game objective grabbing/getting in the way.
Niiai wrote: What are you chaffing against? Only orks and very select unit charge nids.
Pretty much every Space Marine army will drop a Smash Captain into an Exocrine with ease. Will be able to take out multiple bugs in the first turn in the right Chapter too if they are too close to each other, and more the turn after if you don’t have an immediate answer. Chaff is your defence against this. It’s also how we score turn after turn by continuing to replace obsec bodies on objectives as well as blocking up the field for enemy movement. And it lets us force fallbacks on strong units if opportunities arise which is good.
catbarf wrote: From what I've seen it looks like the Scythed Hierodule is 470pts now (no free Talons)
Can you confirm the source of this info (or anybody else)? I've seen the Scythed Hierodule going up from 350 to 410 but the talons became free as far as I've seen in the sources I've checked..
a couple of MSU Stealers is gonna be a good option but a few Warriors I feel are more versatile, perform the same role, give me back-up Synapse, and take (most hits) a little better. Lets me save points, expand to a battalion, and break all the Termagant squads into 10 mans. Two Pyrovores cost feth all, outflank for free, and thanks to 10" flamer, deploy within burn range which is kinda cool now. Thinking of even grabbing a third one instead of the Rippers. Gotta wait till the webstore restocks Exocrine but I'm excited to playtest this.
Spoletta wrote: Because they are infantry with 4W T4 4+ for 28 points. They are the best health for your bucks to put on a point.
And they are dangerous if you get close.
I dunno, I kind of agree on outflanking them. I've used them as really cheap and dangerous suicide units before in 8th because of their cost. They're a decent distraction, and if you outflank them to threaten a board edge, they can easily make an opponent thing twice about running an infantry unit after that point you have rippers/terms/warriors on.
They may just have a really versatile position in the new edition though. Time will tell.
1) You don't need troops anymore. Vanguard detachments, patrols, and Brigades all give 12 CP. Right now, I think we're stuck in the Battalion mindset of 8th. That being said, vanguard, outrider, and spearhead detachments cost 3 CP and don't refund them like patrol, battalion, or brigades when your warlord is a part of them. Is starting at 9CP worth only having to take 1 HQ and jumping straight into what you want with no troops tax?
2) Morale doesn't punish hordes. Previously, if 30 gants took 20 casualties outside of synapse, the rest fled. Now, one model flees and the rest flee on a roll of a 1 on a d6 per model. Synapse isn't required for morale.
3) Warriors are amazing. Between adaptive physiology, venomthrope buffs, primes, strategems, and weapon upgrades you can basically build your army around 3 wound primaris equivalents with double power swords, assault heavy bolters, and d3 shot mini-missile launchers for less than 30 points a model. They can get up to a 3+ save with a 5+ FNP, -1 to hit, -1 to damage and ignore AP -1 and -2. It's like all of the chapter tactics at once.
4) Tyrannofexes are amazing. Post them up ~15" from objectives and spray down anyone trying to hold them with 4d6 acid spray hits.
5) Sporocysts and Sporefield can buy you time and space for cheap. With the updated fortification detachment, it doesn't cost CP and you can forward deploy these guys onto objectives. The idea is to use sporemines to block movement and prevent your opponent from effortlessly leaving their deployment zone while you get into position.
6) Hiveguard are nuts. They range the whole table now and are great for all the reasons you already know... and they can sit onan objective while doing it.
7) Leviathan may be the #1 adaptation now. Having to hold objectives for a whole turn means you must survive. 3 wound units especially benefit from the 6+ FNP and strategems that reduce damage by 1 as you can minimize efficiency of multi-damage weapons.
8) We can deploy units from strategic reserves around lictors with strategems. This may have play with the new strategic reserve rules.
9) We have numerous solo units that can really mess up the backfield. Imagine the Deathleaper, 3 lictors, the Red Terror, and 3 Pyrovores all outflanking to gang up on backline units (think Thunderfires and dark reapers). Even 10 man Intercessors on objectives would face pressure from 3d6 (minimum 9 hitd) from flamespurt cannons, a ravener that could just eat you, and 13 Str 6 AP-1 D2 attacks from lictors that reroll charge distances the turn they come in.
Unlearn what you have learned. There are so many exciting and new possibilities in 9th!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 10) You only need to hold 2 objectives for 4 turns to get 40/45 points for primary. You don't need to kill your army to hold 3 objectives for 15 points more than just one turn in the game.
11) Adrenal glands are critical, as is the overrun strategem. You should try to move 9" to get onto objectives outside of your deployment zone turn 1 so you can score turn 2.
12) Take your army list and hold it up to the secondaries list. Calculate the max points your opponent can score off of you. That is the "tie breaker" for a stalemate in the primary. Potentially, if your opponent scores 45 points on the secondaries he can counteract poor primary performance.
13) If you want to perform actions, you need a "action detachment." What this looks like to me is a cheap character completely encircled by a tough unit. For instance, Deathleaper surrounded by Tyrant Guards or a Prime surrounded by warriors. Or Red Terror surrounded by raveners. This last example would be a great "Razer" detachment to go forward and raze your opponents objectives in mission 5.
Spreelock wrote: Hello, i'm asking for advice about Leviathan hive fleet, what is the most competitive build available for them? I know that the Kraken genestealers are very good (and i've played before with Behemoth), but for fluff reason i'm intrested about Leviathan. And tournaments in my local area does not usually allow Forge World models.
First of, everything is up in the air. The double change of rules and point increase means we do not know.
I have runn some leviathan. Gaunt blockades are more anoying then usual (as they do not die as expected, and of course all tyranids are fearless when done right.)
The real treat with leviathan though is in my opinion warriors. Warriors are better under leviathan then others (depending if you can get cover or not) but 3 damage weapons do not like the 6+++.
The stratagem is also very good if you manage to find a flying model. (Hive tyrant, gargoyles and neoronthropes comes to mind.) It is very point effective.
Leviathan can not hold a candle to kraken stealers. But are stealers so good in 9th? Usually kraken stealers used to lock you in with 40 stealers, swarmlord and broodlord. You do not need to lock in to that at leviathan.
I totally agree with this assessment on Leviathan. I've always been a huge fan of Leviathan Warriors and think they are going to shine in this edition. I haven't had the chance to play a game yet, but from what I'm reading on the web and seeing on YouTube, I think Tyranids will be a contender in the ring in this edition in respects to missions. I wouldn't be back on the bug wagon if I didn't believe it.
Nidzilla might not fair that well, considering with the reliability of vehicles going up, there will likely be a greater presence of heavy weapons. With knights and Cknights being sort of rotated out of viability (they won't fair all that well and will have a hard time in most scenarios) we might see less heavy weapons too....
I'm sure there is a way to make some elements of it work, but not a pure nidzilla list. Tossing in OOE and 2-3 carnifexes could be viable perhaps?
Right now the main "threat" to Nid-zilla, and Nids in geral is the stupid Impulser "fly tank" and massive Marine shooting blobs. The Only weakness I've yet seen is Marines like to blob up to max out character buffs. So I plan on seeing what I can do about that Maybe my beloved Mawlock can get a task, then use a Strat to death throes for some extra damage, pop off a leader or too, and Marines are less horrifying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also perhaps "Acid blood" can play a role....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right now I am mostly think about running Jormangandr with Gunfexen, and MSU Stealers, and Warriors. Still have about 550 points not spent, possable Cult allies for Anti- tank, or....hmmm still don't know.
I'm looking at picking up Tyranids as my new army project for 9th. What's the consensus on Carnifexes right now? Like warriors, they can sort of perform a dual-role with a mixed loadout of guns and melee weapons.
Carnifex is sort of like a big version of warriors.
Carnifex has some amount of wounds, around the same amount as 3 warriors. It shoots better, bigger guns. Warriors have a hier number of melee attacks, fewer guns. Carnifex need to specialise in shooting, melee and shoting or only melee.
They are quite comparable but they are different. 9th might have slided the points further away. I have not looked at it.
Dendarien wrote: I'm looking at picking up Tyranids as my new army project for 9th. What's the consensus on Carnifexes right now? Like warriors, they can sort of perform a dual-role with a mixed loadout of guns and melee weapons.
Definitely magnetize the crap out of carnifexes. I still use mine from 10 years ago.
I would say go full shooting or full close combat. They have strength 6 which is much worse than what they used to get. They're not good at flipping tanks anymore.
What do you think about old one eye? He just got faq'd to get LoS around other fexes.
Emicrania wrote: Nids monster all works at the expense of CP. ALL of the cp we got in BoB should be rewritten in the datasheets and still it wouldn't be unbalanced.
LordoftheSwarm wrote: 6) Hiveguard are nuts. They range the whole table now and are great for all the reasons you already know... and they can sit onan objective while doing it.
Not everyone is playing with GW's standardrecommended minimum board size.
Dendarien wrote: I'm looking at picking up Tyranids as my new army project for 9th. What's the consensus on Carnifexes right now? Like warriors, they can sort of perform a dual-role with a mixed loadout of guns and melee weapons.
Dendarien wrote: I'm looking at picking up Tyranids as my new army project for 9th. What's the consensus on Carnifexes right now? Like warriors, they can sort of perform a dual-role with a mixed loadout of guns and melee weapons.
The consensus appears to be there is no consensus. At first glance they are not great. At second glance you get a lot of "well, maybe if I...." reactions. I think we won't really know for another month or two, as people get in games and adapt to the new editions.
Carnifexes were good at providing lots of cheap, reasonably durable mid S firepower. The common build was two sets of devourers (12 S6 AP 0 shots per), the +1 BS upgrade, and the upgrade that gives -1 to hit. Each 'fex then puts out 24 shots, hits on 3's, and requires the other guy to dedicate a decent amount of firepower to get rid of them. This build was strong enough that it was reasonably common to see.
Melee 'fexes suffered from not hitting hard enough and from the inherent issues of getting a big scary monster to reach CC. They were not durable or fast enough that you could reasonably expect to get enough of them into CC with something that mattered for it to be worth it.
Hybrid 'fexes suffered from the issues of melee 'fexes and the big cannons being underwhelming.
Smaller boards and scoring that requires leaving the deployment zone makes it easier to get Carnifexes close enough to matter-they have less distance to travel and it is more likely something will come out to meet them. The the changes to terrain rules is in their favor - because they mostly want to be in close I think they overall benefit more than they lose out.
Changes to blast makes the hybrid 'fexes with Stranglethorn Cannons or Venom Cannons more attractive, as does the need to kill Primaris.
Stranglethorn and Venom Cannons are not cheap, and they are going to want to shoot at things that blast doesn't help with, like Rhinos. Buuuuut if you kill the Rhinos with Hive Guard or Exocrines, the 5 man squads that fall out don't like the Cannon then charge at all.
Increased cost per model makes it harder to take the critical mass you need to make them effective. Carnifexes tend to die, you kind of need to bring a lot of them. The new melta marines don't exactly help out with this. On the other hand, there are not going to be as many Knights/Superheavies around, which is good because they tend to murder Carnifexes.
Point being, it is too early to tell.
If you do get them, magnetize everything. For all we know right now, the Screamer Killer is going to end up being super useful, and you are going to want to be able to swap from one to another to try out different builds and odd ideas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That thought made me go look at Screamer Killers again. The bio-plasmic scream is blast, and they have an eight inch +1 to morale checks aura. Hmmm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Carnifex Wall 1967
Kraken Patrol 831
Old One Eye 220
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Boneswords, H. Venom Cannon) 260
Had a talk to some other Nid players and we seem to be in agreement that Thornbacks are probably the best option now. Dakkafexes cant get by without Acid Maw these days because of Primaris.
D3 damage is really unreliable in comparison to flat Damage 3 of ScyTals, especially thanks to Reroll 1s, and with the addition of more and more Gravis units to the game, these will only become more and more impactful, but even as it stands aggressors/cents/eliminators are all very powerful units here and even just being able to guarantee the KO of an Intercessor on every wound rather than rolling d3 damage is important too. And also helps with FNP on Ferrus’s bois who will still be a big meta threat. So if you’re gonna sacrifice damage to cover melee, may as well piss the Acid Maw off and just take ScyTals + one pair of Devourers + Enhanced Senses, for barely less hits than full Devourers with no Senses, and cheaper too now that Devourers price is so high, you actually have save enough pts each time to pay for Adrenal Glands on each (a VERY relevant upgrade now)
A squad of these Fexes will be able to both dice down Screens with the dakka, and chew up Primaris in close combat, and even threaten wounds on vehicles too. And they want to be in CC too now rather than just dancing outside of it, now that they can both shoot and chop without penalty while locked in CC, so now they can deal with screens even more effectively as they can’t be tarpit in return anymore.
At this point, you’re basically running a Thornback load out already, the only missed option is Spore Cysts, which is nerfed going into 9th anyway. The Thornbacks ignore cover for shooting which means their dakka will be even better for dealing with screens in 9th, also Spine Banks are a great/arguably better alternative carapace option to Spore Cysts now that Fexes wanna be throwing themselves into CC, and especially with Enhanced Senses is significant increase to their screen clearing. Also, the Thornbacks charging threaten to drop a Primaris on a 4+ most the time before combat even starts. And free Chitin on top of that, because why not!
I’ll be having fun running Kraken Thornbacks with Spine Banks, Enhanced Senses and Thresher Scythe, and most likely AG too. I think these will be the best loadout personally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Thornbacks went up the least amount of pts too
Nitro Zeus wrote: Had a talk to some other Nid players and we seem to be in agreement that Thornbacks are probably the best option now. Dakkafexes cant get by without Acid Maw these days because of Primaris.
D3 damage is really unreliable in comparison to flat Damage 3 of ScyTals, especially thanks to Reroll 1s, and with the addition of more and more Gravis units to the game, these will only become more and more impactful, but even as it stands aggressors/cents/eliminators are all very powerful units here and even just being able to guarantee the KO of an Intercessor on every wound rather than rolling d3 damage is important too. And also helps with FNP on Ferrus’s bois who will still be a big meta threat. So if you’re gonna sacrifice damage to cover melee, may as well piss the Acid Maw off and just take ScyTals + one pair of Devourers + Enhanced Senses, for barely less hits than full Devourers with no Senses, and cheaper too now that Devourers price is so high, you actually have save enough pts each time to pay for Adrenal Glands on each (a VERY relevant upgrade now)
A squad of these Fexes will be able to both dice down Screens with the dakka, and chew up Primaris in close combat, and even threaten wounds on vehicles too. And they want to be in CC too now rather than just dancing outside of it, now that they can both shoot and chop without penalty while locked in CC, so now they can deal with screens even more effectively as they can’t be tarpit in return anymore.
At this point, you’re basically running a Thornback load out already, the only missed option is Spore Cysts, which is nerfed going into 9th anyway. The Thornbacks ignore cover for shooting which means their dakka will be even better for dealing with screens in 9th, also Spine Banks are a great/arguably better alternative carapace option to Spore Cysts now that Fexes wanna be throwing themselves into CC, and especially with Enhanced Senses is significant increase to their screen clearing. Also, the Thornbacks charging threaten to drop a Primaris on a 4+ most the time before combat even starts. And free Chitin on top of that, because why not!
I’ll be having fun running Kraken Thornbacks with Spine Banks, Enhanced Senses and Thresher Scythe, and most likely AG too. I think these will be the best loadout personally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Thornbacks went up the least amount of pts too
Very interesting post, I'd add bring OOE along for the big stuff that will need to be dealt with, and for the boost. How much would 2*3 thornbacks + PEE be ? 900 points or so ?
I generally agree with Nitro Zeus's take on Carnifex builds, but the thing that turns me off of Thornbacks is the inability to take Crushing Claws. With to-hit bonuses now capped, on the charge with OOE nearby you're hitting on 3+ regardless of whether you have Talons or Claws.
If you only see yourself fighting Primaris with them then going from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 3+ isn't so bad, but I'm thinking more about vehicles/dreads, and going from wounding on 3+ to wounding on 5+. I suppose that's what OOE is for.
I'm also not sure that the hybrid build is a straight upgrade over a Dakkafex- quad Devourers with Acid Maw is still 50% more average hits than twin Devourers with Enhanced Senses, at the cost of some melee ability. With the ability to shoot in melee, though, against a lot of targets the extra shots seem to make up for the reduced lethality of the Acid Maw versus Scything Talons.
Also, Stone-Crushers made out pretty well- they only went up by 10pts base, the pair of Wrecker Claws decreased in cost, and Bio-Flails went from 15pts to 0 (!). A Stone-Crusher with one Claw and the Flail is now a mere 100pts. So maybe those are the better option for dedicated melee escorts for OOE, especially since the Wrecker Claw doesn't suffer a to-hit penalty, so they stay at 3+ in melee with OOE nearby.
I think there seem to be quite a few builds that are worth experimenting with.
catbarf wrote: I generally agree with Nitro Zeus's take on Carnifex builds, but the thing that turns me off of Thornbacks is the inability to take Crushing Claws. With to-hit bonuses now capped, on the charge with OOE nearby you're hitting on 3+ regardless of whether you have Talons or Claws.
If you only see yourself fighting Primaris with them then going from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 3+ isn't so bad, but I'm thinking more about vehicles/dreads, and going from wounding on 3+ to wounding on 5+. I suppose that's what OOE is for.
I'm also not sure that the hybrid build is a straight upgrade over a Dakkafex- quad Devourers with Acid Maw is still 50% more average hits than twin Devourers with Enhanced Senses, at the cost of some melee ability. With the ability to shoot in melee, though, against a lot of targets the extra shots seem to make up for the reduced lethality of the Acid Maw versus Scything Talons.
Also, Stone-Crushers made out pretty well- they only went up by 10pts base, the pair of Wrecker Claws decreased in cost, and Bio-Flails went from 15pts to 0 (!). A Stone-Crusher with one Claw and the Flail is now a mere 100pts. So maybe those are the better option for dedicated melee escorts for OOE, especially since the Wrecker Claw doesn't suffer a to-hit penalty, so they stay at 3+ in melee with OOE nearby.
I think there seem to be quite a few builds that are worth experimenting with.
I was thinking of just taking Stone-Crushers instead of Claw Fexes too. They seem better in general for getting in close. They're already specialized for vehicle killing too.
I think I'll try a Carni build, starting with two Stonecrushers with OOE, and two Thornbacks with Deathpitters and enhanced senses like Nitro said. That's not a whole army, so there should be some points to fiddle around with.
Niiai wrote: I have not seen them. How are the new Stonecrushers?
100pts buys you a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail, giving 3 attacks at S12/AP-3/DD6, re-rolling wounds against Vehicles, plus a S6/AP-1/D1 attack for every enemy model within 2".
For 10pts more, you can replace the Bio-Flail with a second Wrecker Claw. You give up the S6 attacks, get your full 4 attacks at the S12 profile, and re-roll hits and wounds against Vehicles.
Unfortunately, you lose access to all the head and carapace biomorphs besides Bio-Plasma, so there's a tradeoff.
Apologies for the noob question, but I don't have the Blood of Baal book yet.
I see some lists giving adaptations to multiple exocrines. The Progeny of the Hive stratagem can only be used once. Is the second adaptation unlocked by just not taking a warlord trait?
I see a lot of hype for Kronos and no doubt it seems deadly with symbiostorm and excocrines, but what about leviathan? I was thinking something like gaunts, warriors, 2 tyrannofexes, an exocrine for my first list. The emphasis on durable objective holders seems to give leviathan an edge, while the reroll 1s on Kronos has some anti-synergy with the removal of -1 on shooting and moving with the big bugs.
I see a lot of hype for Kronos and no doubt it seems deadly with symbiostorm and excocrines, but what about leviathan? I was thinking something like gaunts, warriors, 2 tyrannofexes, an exocrine for my first list. The emphasis on durable objective holders seems to give leviathan an edge, while the reroll 1s on Kronos has some anti-synergy with the removal of -1 on shooting and moving with the big bugs.
You can run both by giving up 2 CP for a patrol detachment.
Leviathan Battalion with your durable objective takers, and a Kronos Patrol with a psyker for Symbiostorm and shooting elements.
At this point the Kronos patrol is almost mandatory if you want to run a list with shooty elements in it. Symbiostorm is ridiculous both on the Exo (exploding 5s) and on double-tapping Hive Guard (24 shots/round). The reroll 1s will pay the 2CP for the Patrol detachment several times over.
The main fighting force needs every single advantage that it can get, so a battalion of Levi/Jorm, or Kraken if you are brave enough to run something melee focused.
On that topic... I personally think this will be one of the strongest lists. Not just the strongest list for Tyranids, but probably one of the strongest lists in the game.
Insane amounts of fearless obsec scoring, with a bunch of answers safely dug in to ensure objectives dominance and deal with any particular threats to the game plan.
Nitro Zeus wrote: On that topic... I personally think this will be one of the strongest lists. Not just the strongest list for Tyranids, but probably one of the strongest lists in the game.
Insane amounts of fearless obsec scoring, with a bunch of answers safely dug in to ensure objectives dominance and deal with any particular threats to the game plan.
Sorry guys, I should have been clearer, was first thing in the morning when I posted that. This is a skeleton list, I'm not trying to say that this specific load out will be the best way to play, just something very similar. If you feel a different Hive Fleet, take a different Hive Fleet, I can see the merits in those choices, Kraken as well. Doesn't have to be all Termagants, sub out for Hormagants, Gargs are looking like a nice unit for pushing out turn 1 as well, etc. I'm a pretty staunch believe in playtest > theoryhammer, and this is admittedly complete theoryhammer! But that's all we've really got until the edition releases. As such, while I play I'll feel out the best way to approach secondaries, and whether I need to take some more tools for that, or shift a few tools to deny secondaries better, etc. The list isn't iron clad at all, I just think something built from there will be very strong - maybe just like that in general. Tons of obsec scoring funnelling back onto objectives each turn, hidden melee to push off enemy objectives, and also plenty of smites (and other answers) to help out with this too.
I think that "Behind enemy lines" is too good of a secondary for nids. We want to be in their face, and if we don't manage to get two units fully inside the enemy area, we can just deepstrike some. We got a huge a mount of cheap deepstrikes
Remember that the secondary is scored at the end of the turn. Turn 2 and 3 are guaranteed already with deepstrikers, you just need to squeeze in 2 more turns.
a couple of MSU Stealers is gonna be a good option but a few Warriors I feel are more versatile, perform the same role, give me back-up Synapse, and take (most hits) a little better. Lets me save points, expand to a battalion, and break all the Termagant squads into 10 mans. Two Pyrovores cost feth all, outflank for free, and thanks to 10" flamer, deploy within burn range which is kinda cool now. Thinking of even grabbing a third one instead of the Rippers. Gotta wait till the webstore restocks Exocrine but I'm excited to playtest this.
a couple of MSU Stealers is gonna be a good option but a few Warriors I feel are more versatile, perform the same role, give me back-up Synapse, and take (most hits) a little better. Lets me save points, expand to a battalion, and break all the Termagant squads into 10 mans. Two Pyrovores cost feth all, outflank for free, and thanks to 10" flamer, deploy within burn range which is kinda cool now. Thinking of even grabbing a third one instead of the Rippers. Gotta wait till the webstore restocks Exocrine but I'm excited to playtest this.
Its 1 CP for the combined cost of ALL units you put in SR for PL 1-9 (and 2 CP 10-19, etc). So it'd be 1 CP for 4 PL of Pyrovores (2PL per base currently).
Yeah, that will be my plan, the other two are safer on the board since they both have Dermic. Outflanking Exocrine with the strat can hopefully light up Eradicators etc
Tyran wrote: HS, biovores are cheap and help control enemy movement.
FA, gargoyles for more bodies.
Biovores are 50 PPM, gargoyles 7 PPM.
I honestly don't think these units will achieve much, but perhaps PracticeHammer will prove my theory wrong. Biovores will always have 33% chance to hit now, so no more auto miss spawning, and gargoyles are still as squishy as any other gaunt. Also, Gargoyles are very hard to hide (actually they are probably contenders for worst jump infantry in the game, and if you want to grab objectives turn 1, then you can just go for raveners I'd guess, which seem much better to me)
Gargoyles could be the best jump infantry in the game now, depending on what you expect from them. They are probably the fastest fly unit in the game in that price range.
They have one thing that raveners don't have. Numbers. If your opponent parks an HQ and a 5 man unit on a point, you just move them near it and that's 5/10 primary points negated without wasting a single shot on them.
This is a capture and hold edition, which means that any resonably fast and numerous unit is the best distraction fex available. Your opponent has to get rid of all such units or he has no chances to score his objectives.
Tyranids are particularly good at it because we have possibly the most broken stratagem in 9th. Metabolic overdrive. Any of our units for 1 CP can potentially go on any point. Those 10 hormagaunts behind an obscuring terrain can jump into your home objective, turning a 60 point unit into 5/10 VP.
2 kind of units will excel in this edition; - Durable units that can take and survive on a point for one round. - Thief units that can steal objectives without fighting
Gargoyles and hormagaunts are excellent thieves. One is fast and can fly, the other is obsec and decently fast.
Where Nids will have to get creative is on the first kind of unit. We mostly lack it. Warriors and Tguards are our best bet.
Gargoyles could be the best jump infantry in the game now, depending on what you expect from them. They are probably the fastest fly unit in the game in that price range.
They have one thing that raveners don't have. Numbers. If your opponent parks an HQ and a 5 man unit on a point, you just move them near it and that's 5/10 primary points negated without wasting a single shot on them.
This is a capture and hold edition, which means that any resonably fast and numerous unit is the best distraction fex available. Your opponent has to get rid of all such units or he has no chances to score his objectives.
Tyranids are particularly good at it because we have possibly the most broken stratagem in 9th. Metabolic overdrive. Any of our units for 1 CP can potentially go on any point. Those 10 hormagaunts behind an obscuring terrain can jump into your home objective, turning a 60 point unit into 5/10 VP.
2 kind of units will excel in this edition;
- Durable units that can take and survive on a point for one round.
- Thief units that can steal objectives without fighting
Gargoyles and hormagaunts are excellent thieves. One is fast and can fly, the other is obsec and decently fast.
Where Nids will have to get creative is on the first kind of unit. We mostly lack it. Warriors and Tguards are our best bet.
"Metabolic overdrive most broken stratagem in 9th", you have missed an army wide 2x Move + Run from ANY IG infantry that is much better than any single unit Metabolic Overdrive which in your own point of view would be broken beyond belief (also those 10 Hormagaunts will become 7/8 after Metabolic Overdrive due to rolling 1s)
You're not realizing that your enemy can also prevent your movement with semi-decent positioning, not allowing your units to reach the magical 3" of an Objective, therefore making your Hormagaunts run bomb totally useless and also inefficient at soaking damage (due to being 6 ppm per T3 6+ body)
Gargoyles could be the best jump infantry in the game now, depending on what you expect from them. They are probably the fastest fly unit in the game in that price range.
They have one thing that raveners don't have. Numbers. If your opponent parks an HQ and a 5 man unit on a point, you just move them near it and that's 5/10 primary points negated without wasting a single shot on them.
This is a capture and hold edition, which means that any resonably fast and numerous unit is the best distraction fex available. Your opponent has to get rid of all such units or he has no chances to score his objectives.
Tyranids are particularly good at it because we have possibly the most broken stratagem in 9th. Metabolic overdrive. Any of our units for 1 CP can potentially go on any point. Those 10 hormagaunts behind an obscuring terrain can jump into your home objective, turning a 60 point unit into 5/10 VP.
2 kind of units will excel in this edition; - Durable units that can take and survive on a point for one round. - Thief units that can steal objectives without fighting
Gargoyles and hormagaunts are excellent thieves. One is fast and can fly, the other is obsec and decently fast.
Where Nids will have to get creative is on the first kind of unit. We mostly lack it. Warriors and Tguards are our best bet.
"Metabolic overdrive most broken stratagem in 9th", you have missed an army wide 2x Move + Run from ANY IG infantry that is much better than any single unit Metabolic Overdrive which in your own point of view would be broken beyond belief (also those 10 Hormagaunts will become 7/8 after Metabolic Overdrive due to rolling 1s) You're not realizing that your enemy can also prevent your movement with semi-decent positioning, not allowing your units to reach the magical 3" of an Objective, therefore making your Hormagaunts run bomb totally useless and also inefficient at soaking damage (due to being 6 ppm per T3 6+ body)
You may have missed that "Move! Move! Move!" is not a stratagem so your point was already moot. Also, it affects only infantry squads, while Metabolic overdrive is that good because it affects whatever you want making your attack angles unpredictable.
You may also have missed that to position correctly like you said, you require quite a few models on the point. Stopping a small model which moves 23" from partially entering a 7,5" diameter area is much harder than it looks.
Gargoyles could be the best jump infantry in the game now, depending on what you expect from them. They are probably the fastest fly unit in the game in that price range.
They have one thing that raveners don't have. Numbers. If your opponent parks an HQ and a 5 man unit on a point, you just move them near it and that's 5/10 primary points negated without wasting a single shot on them.
This is a capture and hold edition, which means that any resonably fast and numerous unit is the best distraction fex available. Your opponent has to get rid of all such units or he has no chances to score his objectives.
Tyranids are particularly good at it because we have possibly the most broken stratagem in 9th. Metabolic overdrive. Any of our units for 1 CP can potentially go on any point. Those 10 hormagaunts behind an obscuring terrain can jump into your home objective, turning a 60 point unit into 5/10 VP.
2 kind of units will excel in this edition;
- Durable units that can take and survive on a point for one round.
- Thief units that can steal objectives without fighting
Gargoyles and hormagaunts are excellent thieves. One is fast and can fly, the other is obsec and decently fast.
Where Nids will have to get creative is on the first kind of unit. We mostly lack it. Warriors and Tguards are our best bet.
"Metabolic overdrive most broken stratagem in 9th", you have missed an army wide 2x Move + Run from ANY IG infantry that is much better than any single unit Metabolic Overdrive which in your own point of view would be broken beyond belief (also those 10 Hormagaunts will become 7/8 after Metabolic Overdrive due to rolling 1s)
You're not realizing that your enemy can also prevent your movement with semi-decent positioning, not allowing your units to reach the magical 3" of an Objective, therefore making your Hormagaunts run bomb totally useless and also inefficient at soaking damage (due to being 6 ppm per T3 6+ body)
You may have missed that "Move! Move! Move!" is not a stratagem so your point was already moot. Also, it affects only infantry squads, while Metabolic overdrive is that good because it affects whatever you want making your attack angles unpredictable.
You may also have missed that to position correctly like you said, you require quite a few models on the point. Stopping a small model which moves 23" from partially entering a 7,5" diameter area is much harder than it looks.
1) This is why it's much better: you can use it multiple times without any CP spending
2) False, it works on any <Regiment> unit that has the INFANTRY keyword, namely all Commanders, Infantry Squads, Conscripts, Veteran, Special Weapon Squad, Command Squads, Scions of all kind with a Tempestor Prime and HWT (70% of all non-vehicle choices)
You also need to have officers alive, which is an issue with how easier it is to kill characters now, plus the more restrictive detachment system. It isn't without weaknesses.
Tyran wrote: HS, biovores are cheap and help control enemy movement.
FA, gargoyles for more bodies.
Biovores are 50 PPM, gargoyles 7 PPM.
I honestly don't think these units will achieve much, but perhaps PracticeHammer will prove my theory wrong. Biovores will always have 33% chance to hit now, so no more auto miss spawning, and gargoyles are still as squishy as any other gaunt. Also, Gargoyles are very hard to hide (actually they are probably contenders for worst jump infantry in the game, and if you want to grab objectives turn 1, then you can just go for raveners I'd guess, which seem much better to me)
Even without being able to intentionally miss, I've found Biovores to be quite useful in 9th. All you have to do is miss two out of three shots (74% at 5+), deploy them 3" apart right in front of an enemy unit, and presto, the no-moving-within-an-inch restriction creates an effectively 7" wide wall that they have to go around- or even wider, if you're trying to block a vehicle or monster. They also don't have to worry about Overwatch, so your opponent has to put some kind of real fire into them- elite armies in particular are forced to wildly overkill them.
Throw in the ability to put out a couple of no-LOSMW pretty much anywhere on the board when you actually want them to hit, and I find them to be quite useful as a utility unit. Not something that wins games on their own, but a useful enough asset for the cost, and they can always chill on a backfield objective while doing it.
What are thoughts on a 5 or 6 man unit of Tyrant Guard w/ Enhanced Resistance and Swarmlord for going and sitting on an objective, or walking over and taking an objective from someone else?
rollawaythestone wrote: What are thoughts on a 5 or 6 man unit of Tyrant Guard w/ Enhanced Resistance and Swarmlord for going and sitting on an objective, or walking over and taking an objective from someone else?
I'd go 5-bug, not 6-bug.
Most d3 blast weapons don't like shooting at hordes-Neutron Lasers, Plasma Cannons, stuff like that. Tyrant Guard, though... Juicy targets. No need to give an extra 50% shots.
rollawaythestone wrote: What are thoughts on a 5 or 6 man unit of Tyrant Guard w/ Enhanced Resistance and Swarmlord for going and sitting on an objective, or walking over and taking an objective from someone else?
Edit: I'm dumb and misread Tyrant Guard as Hive Guard. Rewriting.
Edit 2: I've been thinking about Tyrant Guard lately. Their defensive profile is pretty solid, and Enhanced Resistance helps them out against high-volume, low-AP fire. They also actually were treated pretty gently by the points update, with a unit of 6 w/ Crushing Claws clocking in at 50pts apiece.
The problem I see is that they still are around double the cost of a Warrior while being no more resistant to S6-7 shooting. Lascannons at least will wound them on a 3+ rather than the 2+ of Warriors, but each wound that goes through takes out a lot more, and you don't have Unyielding Chitin to protect them. They'd be a very attractive target for anti-tank weapons.
I would also question what they'd be doing once they get on an objective- taking objectives from the enemy is good, but holding them with melee units means they eat fire without being able to do anything in return. Warriors at least can be given decent shooting, and use it while on the move. They also really need to catch a tank or other high-T, multiwound unit to be more cost-efficient in melee. With the Bonesword+Lash Whip option, it gets worse, with their only offensive advantage over Bonesword+Lash Whip Warriors being +1S, while still costing 41pts vs the 24pts (+ ranged weapon) of a Warrior.
They're kind of in a weird area, stat-wise- they pay for the bodyguarding ability and additionally pay for a decent statline, and so wind up being efficient at neither. Every time I start thinking about Tyrant Guard, I end up taking a Carnifex instead. No bodyguarding, but for about the price of 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws, you can get a Carnifex with 1 more wound at 2 higher T, and 1 less attack but at better WS, S, and Damage. Going in the other direction, instead of Lash Whip + Bonesword Tyrant Guard, Warriors offer a lot more wounds (albeit at worse T and Sv), a lot more attacks (at 1 lower S), Unyielding Chitin to soak more damage, and some shooting capability too. Is the bodyguarding worth the loss of capability? I'm inclined to say no, but maybe there's more to it.
I would say though that deep striking in a unit of Tyrant Guard through Pheromone Trail seems like a neat way to get a unit of can-openers onto the board wherever they're useful. That at least is something a Carnifex can't do.
I like Tyrant Guard because they are just fighty enough that the enemy can't ignore them, but not so fighty that I have to pay a bunch of points for a unit whose primary job is to die. I don't see much reason to take a full 6-man as opposed to 5, but beyond that they seem to have done pretty well in my (admittedly inexperienced) opinion. I'm also biased though, because I have a Hive Tyrant conversion I really like and want to keep alive to see in action.
Unrelated note, seeing clarification on some things. First I assume Jormungandr cover is now light cover? I did not see it specifically covered in the FAQ. Second; with venom cannons being blast weapons, and blast weapons always getting at least 3 shots against 6+ model targets, aren't they really dam sweet now always getting max shots against such?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I like Tyrant Guard because they are just fighty enough that the enemy can't ignore them, but not so fighty that I have to pay a bunch of points for a unit whose primary job is to die. I don't see much reason to take a full 6-man as opposed to 5, but beyond that they seem to have done pretty well in my (admittedly inexperienced) opinion. I'm also biased though, because I have a Hive Tyrant conversion I really like and want to keep alive to see in action.
Unrelated note, seeing clarification on some things. First I assume Jormungandr cover is now light cover? I did not see it specifically covered in the FAQ. Second; with venom cannons being blast weapons, and blast weapons always getting at least 3 shots against 6+ model targets, aren't they really dam sweet now always getting max shots against such?
For the venoms, yeah, I think they're probably our best weapon that can go on a lot of chassis. Carnifexes, Tyrants, and warriors will be lugging them around. Stranglethorns might see some use, but we have a lot of anti-infantry stuff hanging around most of the time.
As for the Jorm trait, I haven't heard anything. It would make sense though I guess.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I like Tyrant Guard because they are just fighty enough that the enemy can't ignore them, but not so fighty that I have to pay a bunch of points for a unit whose primary job is to die. I don't see much reason to take a full 6-man as opposed to 5, but beyond that they seem to have done pretty well in my (admittedly inexperienced) opinion. I'm also biased though, because I have a Hive Tyrant conversion I really like and want to keep alive to see in action.
Unrelated note, seeing clarification on some things. First I assume Jormungandr cover is now light cover? I did not see it specifically covered in the FAQ. Second; with venom cannons being blast weapons, and blast weapons always getting at least 3 shots against 6+ model targets, aren't they really dam sweet now always getting max shots against such?
The cover stuff is apparently mentioned somewhere in the BRB that explains a bunch of vague terms from 8th.
The bullet points are
* Add 2 to the saveing throws insted of 1 if reciveing the benifits from Light Cover or Heavy Cover terrain features
* Add 1 to the saving throws if receiving benefits any any other feature.
There is fine print, and I’m not up on the FAQs etc on the nids to give a firm answer. But that’s the gist.
Got a question regarding adaptive physiology I was hoping someone here could clarify. When do I select which units have it and what upgrade they get? Do I have to decide this in list building before I know what my opponent is playing or can I choose which unit/what upgrade after I see my opponents list?
Mainly asking for Tyranid warriors who could greatly benefit from Enhanced Resistance in some matchups but in others I would prefer murderous size or an invuln on my Monsters.
Punisher wrote: Got a question regarding adaptive physiology I was hoping someone here could clarify. When do I select which units have it and what upgrade they get? Do I have to decide this in list building before I know what my opponent is playing or can I choose which unit/what upgrade after I see my opponents list?
Mainly asking for Tyranid warriors who could greatly benefit from Enhanced Resistance in some matchups but in others I would prefer murderous size or an invuln on my Monsters.
As per the Chapter Approved tournament book you use stratagems to upgrade units and note down the details before swapping lists with your opponent.
Punisher wrote: Got a question regarding adaptive physiology I was hoping someone here could clarify. When do I select which units have it and what upgrade they get? Do I have to decide this in list building before I know what my opponent is playing or can I choose which unit/what upgrade after I see my opponents list?
Mainly asking for Tyranid warriors who could greatly benefit from Enhanced Resistance in some matchups but in others I would prefer murderous size or an invuln on my Monsters.
As per the Chapter Approved tournament book you use stratagems to upgrade units and note down the details before swapping lists with your opponent.
So, you know Who you are fighting, but not what. After a few games you'll get to know what is likely to be useful.
I haven't got the models to do it, but my competitive buddies playtested in a 5 round event the exact Termagant list I posted, that I said would be one of the best lists in the game. Their feedback was that it crushed basically everything without breaking a sweat. Tied with ObSec Necrons (something they also think is gonna be extremely strong) and would likely win if played twice, and lost only to Salamanders, which is unsurprising based on the nature of both armies.
Interesting to hear that they did well. I'd be interested to hear details: matchups, terrain, so forth. In particular, did he play against Primaris?
The horde gaunt lists are certainly vulnerable, but maybe people will overvalue blast and not bring enough anti-horde. Smaller games tend to favor skew lists, so all comers lists many not have the tools they need to deal with the little guys.
It is very early to try to come to conclusions, but....interesting.
I might be able to play a local on Saturday. I was planning on running a gunline, but I could take a wall 'o 'gaunts and write up my results.
Only real change I'm considering is swapping Prey-Sight for Morphic Sinews.
This looks very nice! I think it is too soon to know what the "meta" will be local, or in tourney. I plan even to try out a Tervigon with a huge brood of Termies...just to see what works and what does not. I am thinking a swarm of MSU Steralers could be a very potent threat in dense terrain.
Interesting to hear that they did well. I'd be interested to hear details: matchups, terrain, so forth. In particular, did he play against Primaris?
The horde gaunt lists are certainly vulnerable, but maybe people will overvalue blast and not bring enough anti-horde. Smaller games tend to favor skew lists, so all comers lists many not have the tools they need to deal with the little guys.
It is very early to try to come to conclusions, but....interesting.
I might be able to play a local on Saturday. I was planning on running a gunline, but I could take a wall 'o 'gaunts and write up my results.
Cool! If you run a "gaunt spam" please let us know what happens.
So are you just taking the 6++ on the gaunts against Primaris? Because against most other things, the inv is pretty useless.
On the topic of gargoyles: I also think they might be very good for objective stealing. However not being obj sec really hurts them. I expect most armies will run 2x troops in transports to hunt t1 midfield objectives, where the gargoyles will be useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually think that GS might be very good for midfield objective grabbing.
Spoletta wrote: What we lack is something that likes to take a punch while staying on an objective. Pyrovores are our best bet, but they are slow.
Isn't this exactly what Termagants are for? like, the core of our army?
I think that's correct. Termagants are one of the more efficient options we have for just taking hits. Sure, 30 of them won't last too long, but that's only 150 points. 2x30 gives you 60 objective secured, single wound bodies that the opponent has to remove for only 300 points.
I think a list like this has potential, with your biggest downfall being perhaps lacking enough killing power.
The second list has slightly more mobility due to adrenal glands on both units of Warriors and the Prime, as well as trading a unit of Termagants + Rippers for a Maleceptor. With the extra Smite power, this list should output a bit more damage as well.
Lemondish wrote: Pretty confused as to why the second list is two Leviathan patrols when the whole thing fits in a Battalion. What am I missing?
it wasn't letting me put 4 elites in a battalion.
EDIT: Perhaps I am just an unbrain. It seems to work fine. I fixed the original post with everything put back into a single Battalion for 11 CP rather than taking the 2 CP penalty of 2 Patrols for no reason.
Lemondish wrote: Pretty confused as to why the second list is two Leviathan patrols when the whole thing fits in a Battalion. What am I missing?
it wasn't letting me put 4 elites in a battalion.
EDIT: Perhaps I am just an unbrain. It seems to work fine. I fixed the original post with everything put back into a single Battalion for 11 CP rather than taking the 2 CP penalty of 2 Patrols for no reason.
That makes sense. For future reference, you can have 6 (6!) Elites in a Battalion.
Granted, I literally just filled that up without a sweat while making a Sisters of Battle list with the remainder of my unbuilt pile of grey shame...but I also don't think it'll be much of an issue for Nids.
I guess that last statement is probably going to be proven wrong in no time flat lol
I had to work last night, so unfortunately no games for me today.
I like the idea of catapulting a big blob of gaunts onto objectives, but don't want to give up Hive Guard. This is what i came up with for my first event of 9th. Hopefully that will be next week.
The basic plan is to move the entire battalion to midfield while outflanking the Exocrine and using the Hive Guard as a firebase. The Ripper squad can derp strike, or sit around doing actions behind cover.
The hormies are fast and 90 of them will take substantial killing. The Warriors are vulnerable to blast, but still fairky durable. The Broodlord can counter charge or suicide, and is a small little psychic bomb.
I played a game today vs Space Wolves, lost 65 to 69 but it was my fault. I completely forgot about one of my secondaries and totally messed that up. Having said that.....
My list ran 2 hive tyrants with wings, 1 on foot, swarmlord, 30 hormagaunts, 9 tyranid warriors (6 w/ Deathspitters 3 with venom cannons), tyranid prime, 2 x 3 ripper swarms, 2 lictors, malceptor, and 2 mawlocks. I ran jomengander.
I took line breaker, teleport homer (the one i forgot), and bring it down.
From a learning perspective vs the space wolves it was a bloody fight. I maxed on primary objectives, maxed on linebreaker, and got 5 from bring it down (t1 I dropped a stormwolf to 1w so my opponent had it fly off the table and not show back up until t5...)
If I would have put the lictors in my opponents deployment zone t2 and remembered to try for becons then I may have ran away with the game. As it is it was still one crazy fight.
I was impressed by mawlocks this game. In 8th I tried running them a few times and never found a roll for them. Now for 125 pts they don't seem that bad for line breaker support. What do you guys think of them? Anyone have any 9th ed actual play with them yet?
104 pts I think? Yeah they went up, but maybe its because of a use with secondaries that I found them valuable now? In 8th ed we played missions out of chapter approved and every time i tried to use them they would pop up then die. Yesterday when I used them I still had both at the beginning of t5 and 1 left at the end holding one of my opponents objective and getting me linebreaker with some rippers.
I need to try the list again and see if Yesterday was just a fluke or if they have actual value of some sort now, that's why i asked if anyone had any 9th ed experience with them yet. But they popped up, did some mortals to units camping on back field objectives, then survived long enough to charge the next turn into those campers.
Granted they probably lived because my opponent was more concerned about the swarmlord and 3 hive tyrants rampaging through his lines. :p they didn't really get targeted at that point.
Linebreaker and repair teleport homer are our best secondaries.
Lictors make those a walk in the park. Too bad the the teleport homer one was nerfed in CA2020, but it is still good.
I think so too. I played another game today and remembered to do repair teleport homer with my lictors, game was a runaway. I won 68 to 37.
I ran the mawlocks again, I am finding that they work best when they can pop up around the same area (obviously not right on top of each other) and put pressure on a back line unit not designed to fight them (in this case it was 5 intercessors, a wolf guard battle leader, and a wolf priest) as well as make sure your pressuring your opponents line with other stuff thats a real threat like hive tyrants. But they still suffer from deep stike in and then have to sit there and do nothing. Oh well, I am at least enjoying the fact that my lictors are getting ignored because mawlocks are there as well.
Maybe a dumb question, but I definitely read in this thread that Hierodules no longer get Hive Fleets when in a super-heavy auxiliary detachment- where exactly is the rule that makes this the case?
catbarf wrote: Maybe a dumb question, but I definitely read in this thread that Hierodules no longer get Hive Fleets when in a super-heavy auxiliary detachment- where exactly is the rule that makes this the case?
The detachment you take it in. If you take 3 you are fine though.
They don't get the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but they still have the Hive Fleet keyword and can interact with abilities and stratagems that require them.
Got it, thanks. I hadn't keyed into that distinction, actually, so that's really good to know; even if a Hierodule can't benefit from subfaction traits, being able to Opportunistic Advance it is significant.
Bit of a random musing, but with the news that most MEQ will be gaining an additional wound would now be a good time to start breaking out Toxin Sacs? I've not had much use for them in 8th, but being able to get 2 damage on Boneswords or Rending Claws might be more useful given we are about to see a big influx of 2-wound models.
The fact that some MEQs are going to 2 wounds doesn't change much for us. We were already defaulting on killing primaries, and those new tacticals are just primaries with less attacks and no Thunder hammer on the sergeant.
Spoletta wrote: The fact that some MEQs are going to 2 wounds doesn't change much for us. We were already defaulting on killing primaries, and those new tacticals are just primaries with less attacks and no Thunder hammer on the sergeant.
It definitely does for some Marine statlines that were 2 wound already (Terminators, Bikes and more)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Except the Vanguard Vets with 2 wounds each sporting their hot new 4 damage Thunder hammers or their 3 flat damage swords.
IIRC the flat 3 dam sword is the relic blade, that only the sarge can take. And I don’t think anyone enjoys being hit with thunderhammers, even at 3 dam. 4 is going to be overkill on anything small to medium sized. It will affect the average number of hits to put down big things, but that’s mathhammer and statistics.
Of course, when the new marine codex goes live, who knows what will change.
pinecone77 wrote: I'm holding out hope Warrior will go to 4-5 Wounds...a 4 Wound Warrior would be very boss...
I'm starting to wonder if a very primaris-y tyranid list mostly consisting of warriors and hive guard is feasable
currently Nids suffer from their units only being good because of specific interactions with extra rules. Not because of the base model.
Warriors are good because of the -1 dmg strat and the ignore ap -1&2 adaptation, which you can only do to 2 units and multiple units compete for it (Warriors, Hiveguard and Exocrines, the latter for the invul save)
Hive guard are good because of double shoot stratagem & symbiostorm, which you can only use once per phase.
Taking mutiple units quickly causes a big loss of efficiency.
i been thinking about the value of walking Hive Tyrants over flying. The wings are very pricey these days and the speed seems a lot less important for them? Considering Nidzilla style list with 3 Hive Tyrants, a Swarmlord, and Enhanced Resistance Tyrant Guard, surrounded by a Maleceptor for the strat. Maybe support by some other priority targets like Exocrines, and bruisers like Acid Spray Tyrannofex or even a Stonecrusher or two to sling forward with Swarmlord. And ideally enough troops to hold some objectives.
Hi all!
Posted this over on the good ole hive but thought I'd try here too.
I have not spent a lot on models recently due to life being, well, life but as it is my Bday on the 8th I have decided to treat myself to some warriors. 2 boxes thereof.
My collection of nids is mostly based on large units of the little guys with monster support, and aside from a few lictors I have little experience of using the mid sized bugs.
I currently own 1 unit of three warriors (2 deathspitters, 1 venom cannon and scy tals because when i bought them they did not have such fancy things as boneswords).
I am looking at a number of options for these guys and would appreciate any feedback.
Option 1: 1 unit as above and 1 unit of 6 with venom cannons, deathspitters and boneswords/lashwhip+bonesword
Option 2: 3 units of 3 as above
Option 3: 1 massive unit of 9?
Option 4: 1 unit of 3 as above, 1 unit of 5 with venom cannon, deathspitters, boneswords/lashwhip+bonesword and a prime.
Of these, what would you recommend? (I should note that I have yet to play a game of 9th ed)
These guys will mostly be used to hold objectives (and babysit the backfield stuff) so do you think lashwhips may be better than paired boneswords?
I was tempted by a big single unit because of BoB stuff, but reading the missions am starting to feel multiple units is the way to go.
Warriors are really good if you give them the ignore ap 1 and 2 adaption, and use the blood of ball stratagem to reduse shooting damage by 1. Therefor go 9 warriors.
While venom cannons are not goos or reliabol, they they are fairly costed. Get those and deathspitters. (S5 gun.)
When it comes to melee weapons a lot will die to shooting damage. So some scything talons make sense. But I am falling more and more i love with the lash whip. So probably all lash whip, 3 venom cannon and 6 deathspitters. (I often mix the devourer and deathspitter up. I am advising the S5 one.) Give them the ignore Ap 1 and 2 adaptions. They will be the ancor that holds your midfield objective.
So far whrn I have played 9th edition the enemies airplanes seem to be good warrior prime assins. I think we will se more of this, so I am not sold on the prime.
In 8th edition he was well worth it. Warriors where worse in 8th edition, now they are better because they play good on objectives. (Read, are hard to kill.)
If the opponent has some form of airplaines the prime can just be shot. Witch is a same, because the prime is just a warrior enhanser, he is very bad on his own due to bad weapon and defense options.
Also, I find the hive tyrant to be very exspensive, but I play orks a lot and he is very bad there.
I have a neurothrope already at least but it would take a cold day in hell before I drop my Tyrant (he once overwatched an Avatar to deathwith his miasma cannon )
Its not that I dont have any mid size guys (lictors and a few zoanthropes) its just that this new edition seems to favour warriors a fair bit and i have only ever fielded 1 unit of three.
The advice on the unit is appreciated (yes,I have Blood of Baal and was thinking about experimenting with the build your own fleet rules).
As I have plenty (and I mean lots) of stealers with scy tals and hormagaunts I thought the -1ap fleet thing + something else for the agressive wave of the army, then a core of warriors for holding ground, hence the question about lashwhips being any good.
I have always run kraken (the Iyanden story is my favourite fluff also my most regular opponent runs iyanden wraiths) but am looking to diversify a bit with the new edition.
Actually trying to make a full kraken deathstar bubble with 3 flying hives, swarmlord, malanthrope, maleceptor and 3x5 tyrant gaurds. Tough as nails and pretty fast with all the extra movement options (swarmlord, meta overdrive, opp advance). Only a few ripper squads so not that great at grabbing objectives but still pretty fun to play I guess.
shogun wrote: Actually trying to make a full kraken deathstar bubble with 3 flying hives, swarmlord, malanthrope, maleceptor and 3x5 tyrant gaurds. Tough as nails and pretty fast with all the extra movement options (swarmlord, meta overdrive, opp advance). Only a few ripper squads so not that great at grabbing objectives but still pretty fun to play I guess.
basically exactly what I was curious about. do the tyrants need wings tho? And that might be a little bit too much Tyrant guard maybe lol?
shogun wrote: Actually trying to make a full kraken deathstar bubble with 3 flying hives, swarmlord, malanthrope, maleceptor and 3x5 tyrant gaurds. Tough as nails and pretty fast with all the extra movement options (swarmlord, meta overdrive, opp advance). Only a few ripper squads so not that great at grabbing objectives but still pretty fun to play I guess.
basically exactly what I was curious about. do the tyrants need wings tho? And that might be a little bit too much Tyrant guard maybe lol?
I think the speed is needed to make the whole bubble move and be in their face at turn 2.
Malanthrope: metabolic overdrive
1 Tyrant guard unit: opportunistic advance
maleceptor or swarmlord: extra swarmlord movement depending on the advance results.
I would give two tyrant guard units ignore -1 and -2 ap and might outflank the third tyrant guard unit to help out at turn 3+. It could be that I need to drop this unit for more small objective grapping units. Need to test this..
interesting, definitely interested to see how it goes. I think it's a very similar approach in style to the Nidzilla I was running in 8th, just instead using a more updated pool of units more suited to 9th. However I think the style of play more work worse in 9th where scoring is more important, then again, it's kinda gonna STEAMROLL over any "durable infantry" trying to hold objectives in the midfield so it may actually be better than it looks. Crushing Claw's on the Tyrant Guard btw?
I've been testing out my updated Kraken Mortalis list and its absolutely devestating. If it goes first it auto wins, and if it goes second it still works well.
The smaller table size makes the meiotic spores so good. They either kill 33% of your opponents army on first turn, or block their movement and make them waste their first turn killing them. Either way is such an advantage.
I dont know what to expect with the Forgeworld update book, so just try it out on TTS until that drops.
Kraken battalion:
2x nuerothrope, 4x ripper swarms, 3x meiotic spores x9, 1 squad of 6 hive guard with impaler cannons, 3 squads of 3 biovores
Kraken Fortification network
3x sporocyst one with barbed stranglers
I took enhanced resistance on the hive guard and dermic sybiosis on one of the sporocyst (whichever one im placing closer to the enemy).
The list has so much board presence with the 27 meiotic spores, 3 sporocysts, 4 deep striking ripper squads, and a potential 18 spore mines produced per turn. Taking the teleport homer/linebreaker secondary is so easy with the ripper squads. Blocking deep strikers is so easy with all the spores everywhere. Hard to kill armies like custodes just melt to all the mortal wounds.
Harlequins have tools to get around it, but they also dont want to be hit with the mortals and so are gonna have to be really cagey with their characters and not play to their strengths.
Marines have enough shots, but get boxed in pretty easily so you'll be up a turn on them in primaries.
It's not a 100% guarentee, but its a list that should win a tournament currently if played correctly. I just dont know anyone who had 27 meiotic spore mines as they are like $12 apiece. The biovores are pretty expensive too. The list is over $1200 to purchase all at once but darn its fun in TTS.
that sounds really strong too Einlazer. I don't have the collection or TTS but i have no doubts that such a gameplan could be ridiculously effective. Is there any match ups that the gameplan sort of falls apart against?
i feel like a list running 100+ cheap infantry is going to struggle to move anywhere on a board full of mines tho. So I don't think that would necessarily be a bad match up either.
Nitro Zeus wrote: interesting, definitely interested to see how it goes. I think it's a very similar approach in style to the Nidzilla I was running in 8th, just instead using a more updated pool of units more suited to 9th. However I think the style of play more work worse in 9th where scoring is more important, then again, it's kinda gonna STEAMROLL over any "durable infantry" trying to hold objectives in the midfield so it may actually be better than it looks. Crushing Claw's on the Tyrant Guard btw?
Crushing claws on tyrant guards. Regarding that, before 9th edition tyrant guards was just very exspensive. Are rhey cheaper now? I often conplain the lack of 'powerfists' in tyranids. On carnifexes they hit on 5+, 4+ on a charge, so those where dismissed. Tyrant guard get to S8 but where to exspensive. If they are cheaper things are a whole lot better.
Honorable mention to old one eye eho actually is really good, although very exspensive.
I have been rethinking a bit. I actually like the utilaty of the tyranofex acid spray a whole lot. But it conpeted with the exoshrine. And I personally often have trouble with T8, so I like the rupture cannon. I do not have the mofels but I would love a list with 2 acid spray tyranofexes, 1 rupture cannon tyranofex. The whole 2 9 units of warriors.
I have found I have a problem screening the warrior alpha in 9th vs airplanes etc. Anf besides aura it provides so little! And my flying hive tyrants often have no good targets and they are exspensive. So default hq would be neuronthrope.
Something like that. Fill out the rest of the list with what you like. Perhaps some more heavy fire power. Some lictors, rippers or singel model pyrovores (who are amazing!) to grab objectives and seconderies.
Eihnlazer wrote: I've been testing out my updated Kraken Mortalis list and its absolutely devestating. If it goes first it auto wins, and if it goes second it still works well.
The smaller table size makes the meiotic spores so good. They either kill 33% of your opponents army on first turn, or block their movement and make them waste their first turn killing them. Either way is such an advantage.
I dont know what to expect with the Forgeworld update book, so just try it out on TTS until that drops.
Kraken battalion:
2x nuerothrope, 4x ripper swarms, 3x meiotic spores x9, 1 squad of 6 hive guard with impaler cannons, 3 squads of 3 biovores
Kraken Fortification network
3x sporocyst one with barbed stranglers
I took enhanced resistance on the hive guard and dermic sybiosis on one of the sporocyst (whichever one im placing closer to the enemy).
The list has so much board presence with the 27 meiotic spores, 3 sporocysts, 4 deep striking ripper squads, and a potential 18 spore mines produced per turn. Taking the teleport homer/linebreaker secondary is so easy with the ripper squads. Blocking deep strikers is so easy with all the spores everywhere. Hard to kill armies like custodes just melt to all the mortal wounds.
Harlequins have tools to get around it, but they also dont want to be hit with the mortals and so are gonna have to be really cagey with their characters and not play to their strengths.
Marines have enough shots, but get boxed in pretty easily so you'll be up a turn on them in primaries.
It's not a 100% guarentee, but its a list that should win a tournament currently if played correctly. I just dont know anyone who had 27 meiotic spore mines as they are like $12 apiece. The biovores are pretty expensive too. The list is over $1200 to purchase all at once but darn its fun in TTS.
Tiny problem is that Rippers are not Infantry and therefor cannot do Teleport homer secondary.
Ahh well thats a good catch. Linebreaker still works though, as does engage on all fronts. They are a pretty good unit when your opponent cant just throw away stuff to kill them or afford to backstrack.
Nitro Zeus wrote:interesting, definitely interested to see how it goes. I think it's a very similar approach in style to the Nidzilla I was running in 8th, just instead using a more updated pool of units more suited to 9th. However I think the style of play more work worse in 9th where scoring is more important, then again, it's kinda gonna STEAMROLL over any "durable infantry" trying to hold objectives in the midfield so it may actually be better than it looks. Crushing Claw's on the Tyrant Guard btw?
Not sure yet, pretty expensive. Maybe a few. I might just give it to the outflank unit.. Also to might be fun to give the warlord ' flying hive' the 'if you kill a character in close combat you get a free move'-warlord trait. Could make it jump back in the tyrant guard bubble.
Eihnlazer wrote:I've been testing out my updated Kraken Mortalis list a.....
...It's not a 100% guarentee, but its a list that should win a tournament currently if played correctly. I just dont know anyone who had 27 meiotic spore mines as they are like $12 apiece. The biovores are pretty expensive too. The list is over $1200 to purchase all at once but darn its fun in TTS.
Ha that takes me back to the old day!! Back in the day you could take unlimited detachments, and you also got the 'sporefield special detachment' this means 3x unit mucolid spores, and 3x spore field units and for every unit that get's killed you could deep strike it (again) at the start of the next turn. This was once my 1850p list:
6x3 myotic spore bomb units (forgeworld)
6 regular single mucolid bombs
27 single mucolid bombs that drop again next turn if the die on a 4+
27 sporemine units (3 each so 81 bombs) that drop again next turn if the die on a 4+
I actually made a mold for all the bomb units so I could field all this. Took it to a tournament, it was a fun! Still got a picture somewhere, I believe..
The smaller table size makes the meiotic spores so good. They either kill 33% of your opponents army on first turn, or block their movement and make them waste their first turn killing them. Either way is such an advantage.
How are they killing 33% of the army first turn? They have to be deployed 12" away from enemy models, only have a 3" move and only explode when within 3" of enemy models in the charge phase.
The smaller table size makes the meiotic spores so good. They either kill 33% of your opponents army on first turn, or block their movement and make them waste their first turn killing them. Either way is such an advantage.
How are they killing 33% of the army first turn? They have to be deployed 12" away from enemy models, only have a 3" move and only explode when within 3" of enemy models in the charge phase.
Move+Run x2 mostly, but you need a full unit to take advantage of that
The smaller table size makes the meiotic spores so good. They either kill 33% of your opponents army on first turn, or block their movement and make them waste their first turn killing them. Either way is such an advantage.
How are they killing 33% of the army first turn? They have to be deployed 12" away from enemy models, only have a 3" move and only explode when within 3" of enemy models in the charge phase.
Move+Run x2 mostly, but you need a full unit to take advantage of that
Eihnlazer wrote: kraken advance gets you 7-9" of movement on average.
They actually start 9" away from deployment zone, not 12". im looking at the Outriders of the Swarm ability right now.
Your opponent cant deploy back away from the edge, but thats still playing in your favor.
And you can always metabolic overdrive one unit for a second advance move, deep into their deployment zone.
Yes, it's in the FAQ.
But I think you are really overselling this. It is not hard to remove these myotic spore bombs. And once they're removed you only got the hive guard that actually do a decent amount of damage. Mortal wound Spore bombs can really take a enemy player out of his comfort-zone but if the play it smart than the would know it actually comes with great benefits. Spore bombs hurt the closest target and you simply need to sacrifice a small unit or cheap transport to take all the wounds. This goes against most players nature because the don't want to do this. But assaulting spore bombs actually gives the enemy more movement as long as the make sure the closest unit can take all the wounds.
And anything with fly or aircraft gives you a hard time..
And anything with fly or aircraft gives you a hard time..
Why?
Because the got the speed and the ability to ignore the biovore spore mines and smoke out the hive guard. Myotic spore bombs might force the opponent to deploy defensively but fast flying units can really take back that advantage. And a smart player doesn't need to deploy defensively, the just make sure that the bombs can only target the closest model/unit.
Not saying that i play it this way, but i'll mention on the Mieotic spores explosion ability the mortal wounds travel to the closest unit, not just the unit they exploded near.
So techniqually, even if they all blow up on a single model, they still deal their damage, one by one, to the nearest unit, even if its 24" away.
Eihnlazer wrote: Not saying that i play it this way, but i'll mention on the Mieotic spores explosion ability the mortal wounds travel to the closest unit, not just the unit they exploded near.
So techniqually, even if they all blow up on a single model, they still deal their damage, one by one, to the nearest unit, even if its 24" away.
The blow up individually and wound the closest model/unit and you can indeed put the mortal wound wherever you want (in that unit). But if you got 9 myotic spore bombs and the enemy assault's them with 2 scout models and also with a rhino at the flank, as long as the scouts are the closest unit (base to base) and the rhino is not (within 1 inch but not base to base) then the 2 scout models get all the blasts in their face and the rhino is unscratched, but get's an extra assault move.
No thats not correct. You roll each spore one by one and they deal damage. If the first spore kills the scouts, then the second hits the next closest thing (which would be the rhino) and so on until you have resolved all 9 spores. That's RAW how the rule works.
Eihnlazer wrote: No thats not correct. You roll each spore one by one and they deal damage. If the first spore kills the scouts, then the second hits the next closest thing (which would be the rhino) and so on until you have resolved all 9 spores. That's RAW how the rule works.
Indeed, I guess because every single spore bomb explodes and not the whole unit at the end of the assault phase. It is always weird with these kind of ' at the end of the phase' rules in combination with single model effects. If it is the enemies turn could he decide which spore bomb explodes first? Because all these effects happen at the same time (enemy unit within 3 inch at the end of the assault phase) or are the all separate effects/models? And if the enemy model dies because of one spore bomb the rest of the bombs doesn't have an enemy unit within 3 inch at the end of the phase?
It is strange, but the rule is parsed out pretty well.
You check range at the end of the charge phase. Any spores within 3" of a model explode, but you must roll them one by one.
If 2 scouts run up, and get within 3" of 6 spores, all the spores explode. Roll for what they do, one by one. on a 1 they do nothing, on a 2-5 they do D3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy, on a 6 they do D6 mortals to the closest enemy.
If the first spore rolls a 3, the scouts take D3 mortal wounds. Then the second spore rolls a 1 and does nothing, then the third rolls a 6 and does D6 mortals to the next closest enemy and so on, until all 6 have resolved.
The models that take the mortal wounds do not have to be within 3", just the next closest.
Eihnlazer wrote: It is strange, but the rule is parsed out pretty well.
You check range at the end of the charge phase. Any spores within 3" of a model explode, but you must roll them one by one.
Where does it say that? You are not shooting with a weapon so you could just as well argue that the all explode at the same time and you deal the mortal wounds all at once against the closest enemy model from each spore bomb. End of the assault phase doesn't really have a ' to wound' phase. You could just as well argue that if this happens in the enemies turn, he can decide which model explodes/deals damage first.
Personally I don't really care because it is not a big deal, and you need to shoot the buggers before the reach you anyway...
A spore mine can deal MW to a unit which is 48" away, if thats the closest enemy unit when it explodes. There is no range limit in the floating death rule.
p5freak wrote: A spore mine can deal MW to a unit which is 48" away, if thats the closest enemy unit when it explodes. There is no range limit in the floating death rule.
If you really are going down that "RAW-road" then why are you allowed to deal damage separate for each bomb? Does the ' end of the assault phase' got a model after model to wound phase I'am not aware about? Maybe I'am wrong and I'am missing something, but then please show me the rules..
p5freak wrote: A spore mine can deal MW to a unit which is 48" away, if thats the closest enemy unit when it explodes. There is no range limit in the floating death rule.
If you really are going down that "RAW-road" then why are you allowed to deal damage separate for each bomb? Does the ' end of the assault phase' got a model after model to wound phase I'am not aware about? Maybe I'am wrong and I'am missing something, but then please show me the rules..
There is no such thing as assault phase. Read the MW rule.
Unlike damage inflicted by normal attacks, excess damage from mortal wounds is not lost.
When a unit is wiped out, and there are still MW left, they hit the nearest enemy unit, even if that is 48" away.
This should be moved to the Rules Discussion, but here's my take:
Tyranid Codex:
Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6: on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.
Core Rules:
SEQUENCING: While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - e.g. 'at the start of the battle round' or 'at the end of the Fight phase'. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order.
Hmmmm... Shogun may have a point, but for the wrong reason. It very much looks like these happen one at a time, like in the 2 Scouts within range of 3 Mines thing. If you resolve one at a time, and the first 2 Mines exploding kills the Scouts, then there is no longer a model within 3" of a Spore Mine by the time the last one in sequence comes up. Right?
Sequencing only comes into play when two units of spore mine explode. Then its two or more rules that are resolved at the same time. If its one unit, then its only one rule to resolve.
p5freak wrote: Sequencing only comes into play when two units of spore mine explode. Then its two or more rules that are resolved at the same time. If its one unit, then its only one rule to resolve.
I hate to say it, but I copied the rules verbatim. No rules I am aware of make special exception to having rules that affect units or rules that affect models happening in different timings. The rule for the explosion is on a Spore Mine by Spore Mine basis, and says nothing at all about the unit that Spore Mine is in.
The best way to imagine it for the FW mines is that they are each a separate 2wound psycher that can cast smite, but once they cast it they die. And in order to cast it, they must be within 3" of an enemy at the end of the charge phase.
p5freak wrote: Sequencing only comes into play when two units of spore mine explode. Then its two or more rules that are resolved at the same time. If its one unit, then its only one rule to resolve.
I hate to say it, but I copied the rules verbatim. No rules I am aware of make special exception to having rules that affect units or rules that affect models happening in different timings. The rule for the explosion is on a Spore Mine by Spore Mine basis, and says nothing at all about the unit that Spore Mine is in.
The fact that every single spore mine explodes at the end of the charge phase doesn't automatically means that you get to allocate these mortal wounds spore mine after spore mine. You can also read it that every single spore mine only explodes if there is an enemy unit within 3 inch but doesn't say anything about allocating mortal wounds and how you can choose to do so, only that you need to do this against the closest unit for each spore mine. It is all happening at the end of the charge phase.
Eihnlazer wrote:The best way to imagine it for the FW mines is that they are each a separate 2wound psycher that can cast smite, but once they cast it they die. And in order to cast it, they must be within 3" of an enemy at the end of the charge phase.
Like I wrote above, it is not the same because it is not a psychic power that gets cast by different units. It is one unit with single models dealing mortal wounds and you simply decide that you can you choose to let them explode one by one regarding dealing mortal wounds. If you use this argument then you are talking about a separate single model ' end of the phase' effect and then the enemy can choose which bomb explodes first if it is his turn. If the next bomb doesn't have an enemy model within 3 inch anymore, after the first one exploded, then it stops there.
For some reason most of you argue that there is indeed a single moment at the end of the charge phase in which every spore mine that is within 3 inch of an enemy unit get's triggered, but after that you get to decide which spore mine ' explodes' first. I don't think you can have it both ways.
Look i told you how the rule works RAW. If you dont wanna play it that way then thats fine. Just run it by any TO's on their own interpretation if you go to a competitive event.
Eihnlazer wrote: Look i told you how the rule works RAW. If you dont wanna play it that way then thats fine. Just run it by any TO's on their own interpretation if you go to a competitive event.
It is not written, you just assume that you can decide to deal the mortal wounds spore mine after spore mine. I can understand that you want to play it this way but that doesn't make it right.
Eihnlazer wrote: Look i told you how the rule works RAW. If you dont wanna play it that way then thats fine. Just run it by any TO's on their own interpretation if you go to a competitive event.
You told us your INTERPRETATION of how the rule works RAW. It is not entirely clear.
Personally, I feel that if the mines explode all at once then the MWs will be dealt all at once. If the MWs are dealt one mine at a time it is because the explosion is triggered one at a time. I doubt it is RAW, and it certainly is not RAI that one could mix-and-match interpretations to get Schrodinger's spore mines!
Where are they lurking? When putting together my SC box, I was surprised to find some in with the genestealers. I know the are also on the termagaunt/weapon sprues.
Where are they lurking? When putting together my SC box, I was surprised to find some in with the genestealers. I know the are also on the termagaunt/weapon sprues.
Anywhere else?
Spinemaw Rippers are in the Genestealer kit, regular Rippers are in the Termagant kit, Hornagaunt kit(?) and Ravener kit. The old Warrior kit used to have one but it was removed when they were resculpted.
Barring that Forge World also has some Rippers, though being a pile they aren’t as easy to hide and they are pretty pricey (nice sculpts though).
Where are they lurking? When putting together my SC box, I was surprised to find some in with the genestealers. I know the are also on the termagaunt/weapon sprues.
Anywhere else?
Here's a visual guide to where they're hiding that I put together a while back. Some of these sprues are no longer in production. The best source is the termagant kit, as each box of 12 termagants comes with 7 ripper models, which is enough for 2 bases if you stick to 3 models per base.
That pic is incredibly helpful. (as are the other responses)
So for in production plastics: 7 per termagaunt box (3 from the gaunt spures, 4 from the weapon sprues) 2 per genestealer box (one per sprue, 2 in a box) 1 from the ravener kit
Eihnlazer wrote: Look i told you how the rule works RAW. If you dont wanna play it that way then thats fine. Just run it by any TO's on their own interpretation if you go to a competitive event.
It is not written, you just assume that you can decide to deal the mortal wounds spore mine after spore mine. I can understand that you want to play it this way but that doesn't make it right.
I'm in love with this subject, but I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be rude or mean to anyone when I ask. Would anyone reading this play with someone trying to suggest mines can hit something 48 inches away because of this likely oversight? I've been guilty of slight raw abuse like many but I don't even know how you'd justify that making sense in practicality.
The honest reason I'm asking is not to berate anyone, but I've never experienced someone trying to stretch the rules up to a point like this. I'm curious on other peoples experiences and how they deal with it.
I dont auto blow all the spores. I pop them one by one till there are no models within 3" since that makes the most sense.
I was only arguing the RAW of the rule previously. It's not even the first time a rule like this has popped up in the tyranid stuff. Pyrovores used to explode and hit stuff across the board as well.
There is no range limitation printed on the spores ability so thats why this is an issue.
However, due to the fact that you are in fact supposed to resolve weapons one at a time (and we only fast roll to save time), I actually play it by detonating each spore, one at a time, starting with the closest, until there are no longer any models within 3" of the spores.
In such a case, you would have to use sequencing since the pyrovores explode on death (when you roll a 4+). However since pyrovores only deal 1 mortal wound at a time when they die, they wouldnt kill the 2 wound mieotic spores before the hurt spore would in turn explode anyway.
It would be a funny scene however. Like chucking dynamite sticks at claymores.
Also played a game with my tyrant deathstar and learned a lot. First time I played the new edition so still new to the mission rules and i underestimated the objectives and the opponent. Going to give this a try:
Battalion (kraken):
HQ: flying hive with 2x twin linked devourers
HQ: flying hive with 2x twin linked devourers
HQ: flying hive with 2x M talons, adrenal glance and toxin sacs. (Warlord)
Tyrant guards get ignore -1 and -2 ap and warlord flying hive gets -1 to hit (kraken relic) and the 'extra move if you kill a character in close combat' warlord trait.
The maleceptor and malanthrope gives the whole bubble -1 to hit and -1 strength against ranged attacks and together with the tyrant gaurd protecting the hive tyrants it is a tough nut to crack.
I actually want to give the devourer hive tyrants another try because I like to use the +1 damage stratagem on them making them better at killing 2 wound marines and horde at the same time.
I got one talon flying hive that could kill a character and move back towards the bubble (warlord trait) and at the same time the swarmlord can do the same with a specific stratagem (move after killing a unit). Both could use the reroll to wound stratagem or fight again stratagem if needed.
The lictors and pyrovores give me options to score secondary objectives.
I want this army to sit on 3 objectives and force the opponent to come forward with the option to move very fast myself if needed.
Question: I believe it is possible to pull a reinforcement unit out of the 'outflanking' reserves and drop it next to a lictor with a specific stratagem. I believe you can use it that way, right?
Yes, strategic reserves can be pheromone trailed (but units in a specific place (like inside a tyrannocyte) cannot. The creation of strategic reserves has had the side effect of making lictors and this strategem really, really useful. I use it on small hit squads of stealers or devourergaunts.
i like the initial concept, but that list looks all over the place. Whats the point in wings if you've dedicated all those points into 4 different defensive bubbles that they want to be sitting in? Max devourers on Flyrants? Basically means you've completely wasted all the CC stats that you are paying for. And the only one with a CC weapon and Warlord trait too, you gave the -1 to be SHOT relic, when he will be the only one who should be spending time in CC.
If you want to put a defensive wall in the middle of the table and make stuff come to you, you need more wounds. You have essentially 5 MC's and none are shooting back. Scoring is more important than ever, but this list will utterly lose an attrition war in no time even if you do manage hold the midtable for first turn or even two - which I wouldn't even say is a given. I would strongly consider losing the unnecessary upgrades and trimming a couple of things, to thicken it out with a pair of Exocrine's, or something especially since you have all that defense in place for them.
Nitro Zeus wrote: i like the initial concept, but that list looks all over the place. Whats the point in wings if you've dedicated all those points into 4 different defensive bubbles that they want to be sitting in? Max devourers on Flyrants? Basically means you've completely wasted all the CC stats that you are paying for. And the only one with a CC weapon and Warlord trait too, you gave the -1 to be SHOT relic, when he will be the only one who should be spending time in CC.
If you want to put a defensive wall in the middle of the table and make stuff come to you, you need more wounds. You have essentially 5 MC's and none are shooting back. Scoring is more important than ever, but this list will utterly lose an attrition war in no time even if you do manage hold the midtable for first turn or even two - which I wouldn't even say is a given. I would strongly consider losing the unnecessary upgrades and trimming a couple of things, to thicken it out with a pair of Exocrine's, or something especially since you have all that defense in place for them.
I was just reading the general rulebook and apparently you cannot cast psychic powers after you ' fall back'. Thats a big deal-breaker for a flying hive tyrant, so I just might drop the whole idea anyway.
Option 1:
Deploy the meiotic close to the enemies frontline behind cover (outside 9 inch if possible) and if you get first turn move the first big unit (9 bombs) forward and use metabolic overdrive if needed... Second unit also moves forward and if needed I can cast onslaught on them to help them assault. Assault moves are not limited (have to move closer to the...) so the spores could assault a small unit that has been shot to pieces and use the assault move to simply move within 3 inch of another juicy unit.
The unit with 3 meiotic spores can be deployed on an objective if I really want to make sure it does not get claimed by scouts and the like.. Or I can assault a small unit and try to kill it and remove it from the objective.
If the enemy is not able to target the spore mines behind cover then even if the get first turn, the will be a great threat.
Option 2:
Facing a very fast army or an army with lots of anti-infantry indirect shooting I could put the two big units of meiotic spores in reserves and let them drop in with the lictor (stratagem). Cast synaptic lure on an enemy unit and try to get the spore mines an extra d6 for assault with the blood of baal stratagems. I need the flying hive to assault the same target of shoot down a single model with the venom cannon. Lictor can also use a stratagem for an extra +1 assault and no overwatch. This way I could lock a unit in close combat and prevent the enemy unit from overwatching the spore mines.
I might drop the flying hive and get more bodies for objective grabbing but I first got to test this... Really like the Kraken and Kronos combi but I could also go full kraken brigade and get another 4 command points....
Option 2: Facing a very fast army or an army with lots of anti-infantry indirect shooting I could put the two big units of meiotic spores in reserves and let them drop in with the lictor (stratagem). Cast synaptic lure on an enemy unit and try to get the spore mines an extra d6 for assault with the blood of baal stratagems. I need the flying hive to assault the same target of shoot down a single model with the venom cannon. Lictor can also use a stratagem for an extra +1 assault and no overwatch. This way I could lock a unit in close combat and prevent the enemy unit from overwatching the spore mines.
Can't use pheromone trail on spore mines to drop them next to a lictor. It only works on infantry, which spore mines are not. My personal experience is that meiotic spores are great for screening out infiltrators, like vanguard space marines. However treat them managing to blow up as a reward for getting first turn. If you go second, they aren't going to survive, barring very favourable terrain placement.
Option 2:
Facing a very fast army or an army with lots of anti-infantry indirect shooting I could put the two big units of meiotic spores in reserves and let them drop in with the lictor (stratagem). Cast synaptic lure on an enemy unit and try to get the spore mines an extra d6 for assault with the blood of baal stratagems. I need the flying hive to assault the same target of shoot down a single model with the venom cannon. Lictor can also use a stratagem for an extra +1 assault and no overwatch. This way I could lock a unit in close combat and prevent the enemy unit from overwatching the spore mines.
Can't use pheromone trail on spore mines to drop them next to a lictor. It only works on infantry, which spore mines are not.
My personal experience is that meiotic spores are great for screening out infiltrators, like vanguard space marines. However treat them managing to blow up as a reward for getting first turn. If you go second, they aren't going to survive, barring very favourable terrain placement.
Ah damn, I thought it was tyranid unit... but you are right..
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
Grasping tail: S +1, flat 2 damage and can re-roll wound rolls. So an improvement.
Enhanced Toxic Miasma: fixed to work in Engagement Range, deals D3 mortal wounds.
Shrouding Spores: buffed to 6", but does not protect Titanic units.
Prey Adaptation: buffed to activating on 3", but nerfed to only working within 6" and now affects wound rolls instead of hit rolls.
+1 Power and +15 points.
Meiotic Spores:
Spoiler:
Max 6 models
Float Down (Spore Mine's deep strike) replaced Outriders of the Swarm.
Floating Death: on a 2-3 D3 mortal wounds, on a 4+ 3 mortal wounds (a 13% increase).
Sky-Slasher Swarms:
Spoiler:
Gained Swooping Assault (Gargoyles' deep strike).
Dimachaeron:
Spoiler:
-1 WS +1 S +1 T +4 W, -2 ld
Degradation is now M/WS/BS(instead of A) and BS it is irrelevant, as no ranged weapons. A buff as A no longer degrades.
Weapons completely reworked:
Massive scything sickle-talons: S +1, Ap -3, D D3+3 and can re-roll hit rolls. A massive improvement.
Scything tail: S user, Ap -3, D 2, one (and only one) additional attack[/list]
Leaper-killer: gained a 5+ invulnerable save and can move across enemy models (even when it charges) but it lost the free vertical movement.
Gained Death Throes, standard one (on a 6 everyone in 3" suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Thorax Spine-maw: After attacks but before consolidation, select an enemy model within Engagement range. Enemy rolls a D6 and add that model's S characteristic. If the roll is equal or less than Dimachaeron S, that model's unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
Digestion Spine: If a model is destroyed by the Thorax Spine-maw, at the end of the turn the Dimachaeron gains a 5+ fnp until the end of the game.
+1 Power and +20 points.
Stone Crusher Carnifex:
Spoiler:
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
+1 Strenght.
Seems to have a typo with base one having two bio-fails that can be upgraded to wrecker claws.
It lost any other wargear option.
Bio-fails reworked to making 2 hit rolls per attack.
Wrecker claws reworked to D 3 but becoming D 5 against Vehicles and Monsters. Two wrecker claws still can re-roll to hit, even against other targets that are not Vehicles.
Caparace Chitin Rams buffed to dealing D3 mortal wounds and D6 against Vehicles and Monsters. Also got the +1 to hit rolls if it charged.
+5 points for wrecker claws upgrade.
Barbed Hierodule
Spoiler:
Now a Heavy Support.
-4 M, +1 BS, -2 S, -4 W, -1 A, -2 Ld, +1 Sv
Degradation is now M/WS/BS.
Bio-cannons are flat D 2.
Hierodule Scythint talons: S+2, Ap -3, D D3+3, reroll hit rolls of 1 (it no longer gives an additional attack for two pairs).
Lost Agile and Titanic Monster.
Death Throes on 6 but inflicts 3 mortal wounds.
Lost Titanic keyword.
-9 Power and -185 points.
Scythed Hierodule:
Spoiler:
Mostly as above, except M and Sv are unchanged. Also M degradation more forgiving, 3" per step.
Bio-acid spray: D6 more shots, Range +10", D 1.
-9 power and -175 points.
Harridan:
Spoiler:
Gained minimum Move of 20" and +15" max move, +1 S, +1 T, +4 W, -1 Ld. Less degradation steps.
Gargantuan scything talons: S +2, Ap -3, D 6, re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Dire bio-cannons: 2 more shots, Ap improved by 1, Damage is flat 3.
Frenzied Metabolism now gives +1 to wound rolls to ranged attacks.
Gained aircraft rules (Airborne, Hover, Supersonic, Hard to Hit).
Lost Sky attack.
Death Throes: On a 6, range 2D6", D6 mortal wounds.
Gained Aircraft keyword.
-3 Power and -60 points.
Hierophant:
Spoiler:
-2" M, -2 S, -16 W, -1 LD. Degradation is now M/WS/BS and has less steps.
Bio-plasma torrent: +4" Range, is Assault, +2 S, Ap improved by 1.
Dire bio-cannons and gargantuan scything talons as above.
Frenzied Metabolism and Death Throes as Harridan above.
Gained Hypertoxic Poison Cloud: At the end of the fight phase, roll a D6 for each enemy model in Engagement Range, on a 5+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound.
Transport is now 20 Infantry, and models with W of 2 or more take 2 spaces instead of 1.
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
Grasping tail: S +1, flat 2 damage and can re-roll wound rolls. So an improvement.
Enhanced Toxic Miasma: fixed to work in Engagement Range, deals D3 mortal wounds.
Shrouding Spores: buffed to 6", but does not protect Titanic units.
Prey Adaptation: buffed to activating on 3", but nerfed to only working within 6" and now affects wound rolls instead of hit rolls.
+1 Power and +15 points.
Meiotic Spores:
Spoiler:
Max 6 models
Float Down (Spore Mine's deep strike) replaced Outriders of the Swarm.
Floating Death: on a 2-3 D3 mortal wounds, on a 4+ 3 mortal wounds (a 13% increase).
Sky-Slasher Swarms:
Spoiler:
Gained Swooping Assault (Gargoyles' deep strike).
Dimachaeron:
Spoiler:
+4 W, -2 ld
Degradation is now M/WS/BS(instead of A) and BS it is irrelevant, as no ranged weapons. A buff as A no longer degrades.
Weapons completely reworked:
Massive scything sickle-talons: S +1, Ap -3, D D3+3 and can re-roll hit rolls. A massive improvement.
Scything tail: S user, Ap -3, D 2, one (and only one) additional attack[/list]
Leaper-killer: gained a 5+ invulnerable save and can move across enemy models (even when it charges) but it lost the free vertical movement.
Gained Death Throes, standard one (on a 6 everyone in 3" suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Thorax Spine-maw: After attacks but before consolidation, select an enemy model within Engagement range. Enemy rolls a D6 and add that model's S characteristic. If the roll is equal or less than Dimachaeron S, that model's unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
Digestion Spine: If a model is destroyed by the Thorax Spine-maw, at the end of the turn the Dimachaeron gains a 5+ fnp until the end of the game.
+1 Power and +20 points.
Stone Crusher Carnifex:
Spoiler:
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
+1 Strenght.
Seems to have a typo with base one having two bio-fails that can be upgraded to wrecker claws.
It lost any other wargear option.
Bio-fails reworked to making 2 hit rolls per attack.
Wrecker claws reworked to D 3 but becoming D 5 against Vehicles and Monsters. Two wrecker claws still can re-roll to hit, even against other targets that are not Vehicles.
Caparace Chitin Rams buffed to dealing D3 mortal wounds and D6 against Vehicles and Monsters. Also got the +1 to hit rolls if it charged.
+5 points for wrecker claws upgrade.
Barbed Hierodule
Spoiler:
Now a Heavy Support.
-4 M, +1 BS, -2 S, -5 W, -1 A, -2 Ld, +1 Sv
Degradation is now M/WS/BS.
Bio-cannons are flat D 2.
Hierodule Scythint talons: S+2, Ap -3, D D3+3, reroll hit rolls of 1 (it no longer gives an additional attack for two pairs).
Lost Agile and Titanic Monster.
Death Throes on 6 but inflicts 3 mortal wounds.
Lost Titanic keyword.
-9 Power and -185 points.
Scythed Hierodule:
Spoiler:
Mostly as above, except M and Sv are unchanged. Also M degradation more forgiving, 3" per step.
Bio-acid spray: D6 more shots, Range +10", D 1.
-9 power and -175 points.
Harridan:
Spoiler:
Gained minimum Move of 20" and +15" max move, +1 S, +1 T, +4 W, -1 Ld. Less degradation steps.
Gargantuan scything talons: S +2, Ap -3, D 6, re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Dire bio-cannons: 2 more shots, Ap improved by 1, Damage is flat 3.
Frenzied Metabolism now gives +1 to wound rolls to ranged attacks.
Gained aircraft rules (Airborne, Hover, Supersonic, Hard to Hit).
Lost Sky attack.
Death Throes: On a 6, range 2D6", D6 mortal wounds.
Gained Aircraft keyword.
-3 Power and -60 points.
Hierophant:
Spoiler:
-2" M, -2 S, -16 W, -1 LD. Degradation is now M/WS/BS and has less steps.
Bio-plasma torrent: +4" Range, is Assault, +2 S, Ap improved by 1.
Dire bio-cannons and gargantuan scything talons as above.
Frenzied Metabolism and Death Throes as Harridan above.
Gained Hypertoxic Poison Cloud: At the end of the fight phase, roll a D6 for each enemy model in Engagement Range, on a 5+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound.
Transport is now 20 Infantry, and models with W of 2 or more take 2 spaces instead of 1.
-57 Power and -1210 points.
Thanks! It Looks like these dudes might be medium useful again. I am sure that is good news for anybody who owns one (or more )
Wow, much better than I thought. I did get the reprinted Anphelion project a few years ago (love the story in it) but never quite managed to pull the trigger on buying a Dimy even though its one of my favorite FW models. Time may have come now it seems.
This has even made me look seriously at a scythed 'dule for my kraken nids.
If the dule's are heavy support now, does that mean they will benefit from the hive fleet rules ( for me that would be the 3d6 pick highest advance and fall back and charge.. ie does it have the <hive fleet>?) ? If so, that is definitely tempting too.
Barbed Hierodule is best points/profile ratio atm, we're probably going to see 2x/3x of them as Jormugandr or Leviathan for 1+/6+++ with T8 and 2+ to boost (and definitely a Malanthrope for -1 to hit and if you want to go bonkers another Maleceptors for -1 Strenght to all weapons that hit these bad boyz)
I am very interested in running a pair of scythe-dules as gorgon. Finally having a hard hitting, fast moving monster is a godsend. I might actually bite the bullet on a pair of these finally. With murderous size they threaten KEQ big time. Sad to waste the strength buff, but 6 s11 ap4 d4+d3 attacks is gonna mulch through most things they touch.
Wow, in the last 3 posts we've had kraken, gorgon, jormangandr and leviathan all mentioned. I've said it before and ill say it again... We have the best range of playstyle options of any army in 40k (yeah marine players... we actually have to THINK about our game plan
Wait a min... I just typed Gorgon! Really? Awesome! Can I ask what your thinking is behind this? Its so rare I hear anyone mention them (please don't take this as condescending in any way, I am genuinely interested).
Ok, all we need now is for someone to pop up with a cool idea for Hydra
I'm liking the idea of a pair of Gorgon Scythed Heirodules more and more. I've been racking my brain on how to deal with gravis marines, and now FW has dropped the answer in my lap. I'm thinking the smart choice will be to take two with dermic symbiosis for that sweet sweet 5++. On it's own, it'll be throwing down 6 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s from the talons, then wounding gravis on 2+ rerolling 1 from gorgon. That to me sounds like a dead heavy intercessor squad, or a very dead eradicators. They are even almost cost effective at it!! I'm... I'm stunned. We got a nice thing. That is good at hurting marinesIN MELEE If I really want a thing dead though, I just make sure to pop Poison Influence on their nearby tyrant/malaceptor for ap4 on all those attacks. These even threaten knights! I CAN FIGHT KNIGHTS IN MELEE AHAHAHHAHAHA
Another nice thing is losing titanic. Being able to hide these for a turn or two could help them survive turn 1.
Also wouldn't the Barbed be better at killing Primaris? I mean, 12 BS 3+ S8 AP-2 D 2 shoots a turn plus 4 melee attacks is IMHO way better output, with the downside of considerable increased cost.
I'm liking the idea of a pair of Gorgon Scythed Heirodules more and more. I've been racking my brain on how to deal with gravis marines, and now FW has dropped the answer in my lap. I'm thinking the smart choice will be to take two with dermic symbiosis for that sweet sweet 5++. On it's own, it'll be throwing down 6 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s from the talons, then wounding gravis on 2+ rerolling 1 from gorgon. That to me sounds like a dead heavy intercessor squad, or a very dead eradicators. They are even almost cost effective at it!! I'm... I'm stunned. We got a nice thing. That is good at hurting marinesIN MELEE If I really want a thing dead though, I just make sure to pop Poison Influence on their nearby tyrant/malaceptor for ap4 on all those attacks. These even threaten knights! I CAN FIGHT KNIGHTS IN MELEE AHAHAHHAHAHA
Another nice thing is losing titanic. Being able to hide these for a turn or two could help them survive turn 1.
That is certainly a tempting thing to try, I hadn't even considered the loss of Titanic,although number of wounds might be an issue with hiding.
However, despite my lack of playing an actual game of 9th, all my friends tell me that fast moving cc units are decently threatening on the smaller board sizes so providing you can get enough bodies in to follow up and hold cleared objectives this could well be a good approach.
I'm not all that worried about marines tbh (eradicators exempted of course) but more by the smaller, harder to target but still offensively dangerous units like harlequins and custodes. I think if you are gonna run 'dules' its gonna be at least a pair or don't bother. Still. its nice to finally be able to consider the forgeworld stuff.
9th edition has amped up the power level of the slow melee threats.
You can see it in the bladeguard veterans, the new terminators, the skhorpek destroyers and c'thans.
I was wondering where this would leave the nid monster concept. If for GW the meleedule is a 235 point beast, then I expect great things from the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyran wrote: They cannot really hide, 18 wounds remember.
Also wouldn't the Barbed be better at killing Primaris? I mean, 12 BS 3+ S8 AP-2 D 2 shoots a turn plus 4 melee attacks is IMHO way better output, with the downside of considerable increased cost.
If the profile has 5 less wounds, then it lands perfectly at 17 and you can hide.
you cant take as many and they dont infiltrate, so no more turn one melting, but they still are pretty nice as an area denial tool.
As they were, they caused alot of feel bad moments so they needed a change. i've litterally had about 5 opponent quit after turn one when i used them so this should stop that.
Hierodules lost all their special rules. It's not the end of the world, but given how GW has been stripping special rules off units of late, I fear for the end result with Exocrines and Tyrannofexes.
Hierodules I think lost a fair few special rules because they dropped by more than half in points. They basically stopped being lord of war mini-titans and became heavy support models. So they had to lose some power to come down, yet at the same time they now get regular tyranid traits along with the rest of the army and also appear to be generally more viable for their weapon choices and their price point.
GW has basically taken them from an exotic model that you "might" use every now and then or in apoc games and made them something you can envision taking in twos in regular games without it breaking the game nor your army costs.
Tyran wrote: They cannot really hide, 18 wounds remember.
Also wouldn't the Barbed be better at killing Primaris? I mean, 12 BS 3+ S8 AP-2 D 2 shoots a turn plus 4 melee attacks is IMHO way better output, with the downside of considerable increased cost.
If the profile has 5 less wounds, then it lands perfectly at 17 and you can hide.
See that is what you don't trust random people on the internet to not make basic math mistakes.
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
Grasping tail: S +1, flat 2 damage and can re-roll wound rolls. So an improvement.
Enhanced Toxic Miasma: fixed to work in Engagement Range, deals D3 mortal wounds.
Shrouding Spores: buffed to 6", but does not protect Titanic units.
Prey Adaptation: buffed to activating on 3", but nerfed to only working within 6" and now affects wound rolls instead of hit rolls.
+1 Power and +15 points.
Meiotic Spores:
Spoiler:
Max 6 models
Float Down (Spore Mine's deep strike) replaced Outriders of the Swarm.
Floating Death: on a 2-3 D3 mortal wounds, on a 4+ 3 mortal wounds (a 13% increase).
Sky-Slasher Swarms:
Spoiler:
Gained Swooping Assault (Gargoyles' deep strike).
Dimachaeron:
Spoiler:
+4 W, -2 ld
Degradation is now M/WS/BS(instead of A) and BS it is irrelevant, as no ranged weapons. A buff as A no longer degrades.
Weapons completely reworked:
Massive scything sickle-talons: S +1, Ap -3, D D3+3 and can re-roll hit rolls. A massive improvement.
Scything tail: S user, Ap -3, D 2, one (and only one) additional attack[/list]
Leaper-killer: gained a 5+ invulnerable save and can move across enemy models (even when it charges) but it lost the free vertical movement.
Gained Death Throes, standard one (on a 6 everyone in 3" suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Thorax Spine-maw: After attacks but before consolidation, select an enemy model within Engagement range. Enemy rolls a D6 and add that model's S characteristic. If the roll is equal or less than Dimachaeron S, that model's unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
Digestion Spine: If a model is destroyed by the Thorax Spine-maw, at the end of the turn the Dimachaeron gains a 5+ fnp until the end of the game.
+1 Power and +20 points.
Stone Crusher Carnifex:
Spoiler:
Only 1 model per unit, and thus lost Monstrous Brood.
+1 Strenght.
Seems to have a typo with base one having two bio-fails that can be upgraded to wrecker claws.
It lost any other wargear option.
Bio-fails reworked to making 2 hit rolls per attack.
Wrecker claws reworked to D 3 but becoming D 5 against Vehicles and Monsters. Two wrecker claws still can re-roll to hit, even against other targets that are not Vehicles.
Caparace Chitin Rams buffed to dealing D3 mortal wounds and D6 against Vehicles and Monsters. Also got the +1 to hit rolls if it charged.
+5 points for wrecker claws upgrade.
Barbed Hierodule
Spoiler:
Now a Heavy Support.
-4 M, +1 BS, -2 S, -4 W, -1 A, -2 Ld, +1 Sv
Degradation is now M/WS/BS.
Bio-cannons are flat D 2.
Hierodule Scythint talons: S+2, Ap -3, D D3+3, reroll hit rolls of 1 (it no longer gives an additional attack for two pairs).
Lost Agile and Titanic Monster.
Death Throes on 6 but inflicts 3 mortal wounds.
Lost Titanic keyword.
-9 Power and -185 points.
Scythed Hierodule:
Spoiler:
Mostly as above, except M and Sv are unchanged. Also M degradation more forgiving, 3" per step.
Bio-acid spray: D6 more shots, Range +10", D 1.
-9 power and -175 points.
Harridan:
Spoiler:
Gained minimum Move of 20" and +15" max move, +1 S, +1 T, +4 W, -1 Ld. Less degradation steps.
Gargantuan scything talons: S +2, Ap -3, D 6, re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Dire bio-cannons: 2 more shots, Ap improved by 1, Damage is flat 3.
Frenzied Metabolism now gives +1 to wound rolls to ranged attacks.
Gained aircraft rules (Airborne, Hover, Supersonic, Hard to Hit).
Lost Sky attack.
Death Throes: On a 6, range 2D6", D6 mortal wounds.
Gained Aircraft keyword.
-3 Power and -60 points.
Hierophant:
Spoiler:
-2" M, -2 S, -16 W, -1 LD. Degradation is now M/WS/BS and has less steps.
Bio-plasma torrent: +4" Range, is Assault, +2 S, Ap improved by 1.
Dire bio-cannons and gargantuan scything talons as above.
Frenzied Metabolism and Death Throes as Harridan above.
Gained Hypertoxic Poison Cloud: At the end of the fight phase, roll a D6 for each enemy model in Engagement Range, on a 5+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound.
Transport is now 20 Infantry, and models with W of 2 or more take 2 spaces instead of 1.
Niiai wrote: So that bio acid spray wrnt up in shots, up in range, and down i damage?
Does that mean it is very good with slimer maggots?
Also, i have seen somregood kitbashes of our titanic units from a trygon and tyranofex kit.
It's no good since you're actually spending 2 CPs to only deal with 2W profiles (3W still need two times D2 and you're useless against anything T7) otherwise you're doing very few damage.
Go Barbed and don't look back
Scythed Hierodule is probably the best unit the army now. But I’d hesitate before buying up on them because they will very possibly be matched or outclassed by the codex monsters, and I think our codex is coming soon.
Barbed Hierodule is also decent. I have no idea how to value the Hierodule buts it’s probably playable at that price on paper, in practice it’s probably way too big a mode to actually move around smaller denser terrain boards for any real effective.
Having all the models painted and assembled, beside the Dima gathering dust in a box somewhere, I think I´ll test a custom fleet with:
Bestial Nature (terma 6++) and Prey Sight (+1 to hit for monsters first if charge,charged, heroic intervention).
Malanthrope
Neurothrope resonance barb
Swarmlord
6X15 Termagants
OR 30 + 10+10+10 + 30 Endless swarm
Dimachaeron
2x Lictor
5x Zoanthrope
2x Mawloc
Scythed Hierodule (Dermic Symbiosis)
12 CP 98 models
Beside Mawloc , lictors and Malanthrope, they all have Invu.
You will send forward a unit of terma for metabollic override and a Monster with the Swarmy ability, keeping quadrants and 1/2 home objective with the rest of the block. Can raisde banners or can engage, definetly will scramble with the lictors. Maybe even behind enemy lines.
T1 send forward Hierodule or Dima, same T2, T3 the Swarmy come out of hiding and play. if endless swarm is an option, you got 30 termagant coming up T4. In the mean time you hold 2 and fight for hold more. No real firepower but enough bodies to get Obsec out of someone and a big monster to kick anybody out from any objective since those beast now will all hit on 2s and for 1cp reroll to hit.
Edit: vs manticore or high volume of S8 shooting is worth to DS the dima or the Hierodule, not both vs manticore otherwise Swarmy cant survive, for the rest just remember that scren is still an important thing to do and eradicators can be screened out enough to just expose yourself to max 1 unit that will have -1 to hit all the time.
Also overrun is king.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Scythed Hierodule is probably the best unit the army now. But I’d hesitate before buying up on them because they will very possibly be matched or outclassed by the codex monsters, and I think our codex is coming soon.
Nitro Zeus, saying exactly what I intended to before I had the chance, as usual.
Looking at my favorite big bug, I see these as the nerfs:
-Down to 18 wounds vs 22.
-Down to 6 attacks from 7+1 (for talons).
-No more moving over models, or freely falling back and charging.
-No more flat 6" Advance or 3D6-drop-lowest charge.
But! Within each of these nerfs, there's a silver lining:
-Degradation no longer impacts Attacks, so instead of 7-5-3 it's a flat 6.
-Instead of movement degrading 12"-8"-4", it's 12"-9"-6".
-Not being a LoW means it is eligible for Hive Fleet traits again and now they're actually useful- with Kraken you get fall-back-and-charge back for repositioning, and 3D6-pick-highest Advance gives you an average of a little over 5".
-Hive Instinct and Hunter's Drive get the 3D6-drop-lowest back.
Then there are the straight buffs, and they're enormous:
-Talons got a significant damage upgrade, from 3.5 average to 5.5; making the net damage output significantly higher against large units, and providing consistent minimum-4 damage to eat Gravis units.
-Acid Spray gets 50% more shots and over double the range, making it actually usable on turns where you end outside of charge distance. At an average of 10.5 hits usable in melee, this is also a get-out-of-jail-free card against being charged by small units of infantry.
-That sweet, sweet points reduction and no more CP to bring it.
My tl;dr is mobility is down but the losses can be mostly recouped, raw durability is down but with better degradation, lethality is up massively, and cost is WAY down. This is a huge improvement; what remains to be seen like Nitro said is how the codex units will stack up. Either way, I can see myself picking up a second for the fun of it.
Edit: Unrelated, but 6" radius on the Malanthrope is, IMO, the best buff of all of them. As much as I like mine (see: avatar), that 3" radius was a total pain in the ass to stay in and heavily constrained my movement. A 6" radius provides a lot more breathing room and is well worth the increase in price.
Very good write. Fully agree on the Malanthrope 3” range was so annoying. Changing that helps a LOT for any Nidzilla build trying to tank up a little.
I agree with you on all points just a couple of things. I think the average damage went from 3.5 to 5 (not 5.5) unless I’m missing something? Still a great change.
Also, the loss of Agile is imo, a buff. I played Hierodule in 8th and did very well with him, but one thing that is easily overlooked - agile means he didn’t actually roll any dice when advancing, and Kraken strat doubles the result of an advance roll, meaning it couldn’t be used on him. An aggressive Nidzilla running Scythed Hierodules should basically always be Kraken imo, so with 3D6 pick highest to advance he’s usually gonna be doing 5 or 6 inches anyway, and now you can use the strat + Overrun to push him further - they are such a big target even now that they don’t wanna spend a single turn out of CC if they can help it.
I put so much work into my first one that I don’t wanna build a second! But honestly until we get out dex two or three might be really good. Spamming Hierodules is also exactly the sort of thing that probably won’t be good by the next edition or ever again lol so I thinking about showing restraint here.
Another thing about dules, if GW get around to fixing the Tyrannocyte disembarkation problem with big bases (which is really annoying because i bought mine specifically for dropping in my acidfex or soon to be bought haruspex) as its now under 20 wounds (im assuming it has the Monster keyword yes? silly if it doesn't) then the way will be open for mass orbital heirodule insertion...could be very surprising for opponents no? I dont mind a 9" charge and we currently have a few strats that can help with that.
Christmas may indeed see me buying my first ever FW Nid models
Saying that, Im weird with my Tcyte, plan was to run it with venom cannon (yes, i know its expensive) and the Synaptic enhancement physiology for two reasons.
1. It guarantees synapse where I need it (and will help with no -1 to hit for the venom cannons because of instinctive behaviour if I have to drop it well away from my army (because of silly marine auras or whatever)
2. In my 8th edition games, the number of people who underestimated just how dangerous 5 venom cannon are even with a bs of 5+ was staggering. The resultant panic when someone realizes that "this isnt a drop pod its an actual monster that can kill stuff often lead to snap errors in judgement re targeting priorities allowing my fexes and tyrants to get up the board relatively unharmed. I know its a LOT of points but never underestimate psychologial warfare
Really wish i could play because so far this year I've has NOT ONE SINGLE GAME and we are back in lockdown again,,gahh.
Wanna try experimenting with the the build your own bugfleet rules as well :(
Nitro Zeus wrote: I agree with you on all points just a couple of things. I think the average damage went from 3.5 to 5 (not 5.5) unless I’m missing something? Still a great change.
Nope, you're right, I mistyped. The super cool thing is that this means that despite the reduction in attacks, we're looking at a very slight increase in average wounds inflicted against multiwound targets- and fewer, higher-damage attacks will certainly be more useful in a meta that will likely be chock-full of damage-reduction abilities, given the change to Dreads.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Also, the loss of Agile is imo, a buff. I played Hierodule in 8th and did very well with him, but one thing that is easily overlooked - agile means he didn’t actually roll any dice when advancing, and Kraken strat doubles the result of an advance roll, meaning it couldn’t be used on him. An aggressive Nidzilla running Scythed Hierodules should basically always be Kraken imo, so with 3D6 pick highest to advance he’s usually gonna be doing 5 or 6 inches anyway, and now you can use the strat + Overrun to push him further - they are such a big target even now that they don’t wanna spend a single turn out of CC if they can help it.
That's a really good point about them now benefitting from Opportunistic Advance. A T1 charge seems very doable if you can get Onslaught on it; 22-24" of movement before charging is downright rude. I agree that the reduction in durability combined with the increase in lethality is pushing it even further into the super-aggressive glass cannon role. I think the nicest thing will be that it's now cheap enough that you're not totally screwed if you flub the charge for whatever reason and it gets shot.
Speaking of speedy glass cannons, thoughts on the new Dimachaeron? My gut feeling is that it hasn't improved enough to justify the cost (or be better than the Scythed Hierodule in this role), but I haven't sat down and done much theorycrafting with it.
They both have their use, since the Dima can walk over chaffs and move-blocking VEQ and can be lethal in a well positioned T1 charge, where the Hierodule is insane outflanked and tapped by the swarmlord. If it would be possible to enhance the survivability of fexxes aswell, nidzilla would be back in fashion in no time.
Personally I have to deal with double manticores and shooting as mech chickens all day, so dunno how to fix that ATM.
Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.
How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!
Tyranid Horde wrote:Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.
How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!
That's a pretty well-rounded collection and you certainly don't need to start from scratch for casual play. The only models I see there that aren't frequently used are Tyrant Guard, Gargoyles, and Deathleaper; of those Gargoyles can be used to decent effect and Lictors are very handy so Deathleaper can just be played as a normal Lictor. Everything else would do just fine as Kraken or Leviathan.
The main issue I see with this collection is really that Tyranids nowadays are 'go big or go home' with regards to unit composition, for three reasons:
-We live or die on target saturation. One Carnifex is a fire magnet for every anti-tank unit in the enemy army. 3+ Carnifexes is better. 6+ Carnifexes is great.
-Lots of our units get bonuses, both explicit and implicit, when taken in numbers. Gaunts get re-rolls, Genestealers get bonus attacks, Warriors get more mileage from the Prime aura.
-Our stratagems (and Adaptive Physiology, from Blood of Baal) are enormous force multipliers, and larger units get correspondingly greater benefit.
So: if you're taking Hormagaunts, you usually want 20-30 per unit to swamp the enemy and tie up as many units as possible. If you're taking Warriors with a Prime, some people take units of 5 to avoid Blast, but I stick to 9 to maximize the number of Venom Cannons and the effect of Adaptive Physiology. Zoanthropes are a minimum squad size of 3, but taking 6 of them plus a Neurothrope massively increases their output and durability. If you want to bring big bugs that don't have invulns (see: Carnifexes), you want at least 3 at a minimum, and the more the merrier. Hive Guard have a minimum unit size of 3 to start with, but a squad of 6 gets the most out of Single-Minded Annihilation. And so on. The only units I regularly take at minimum size are Fleshborer-armed Termagants as throwaway screening units and Ripper Swarms as objective-grabbers.
Choice of hive fleet is also very important. Kraken and Leviathan improve mobility and durability respectively, so are good 'all-rounder' traits, but Jormungandr, Kronos, Gorgon, Hydra, and Behemoth all favor very specific playstyles and so will constrain your listbuilding. Hive fleet choice might be why you're getting the impression that most of your units aren't used; competitive Tyranid lists tend to lean hard into very specific units and builds. Of the two generalists, I've found Kraken to be immensely useful in 9th, and it's useful for everything you have except Hive Guard, so I'd start there.
At the moment, the two standout units that you will see in most lists are Hive Guard and Exocrines (usually played as Kronos). Hive Guard have excellent shooting that doesn't require LOS (making them easier to protect) and can pop Single-Minded Annihilation to shoot twice for 2CP, while Exocrines have an innate shoot-twice and a profile very well suited to killing Primaris. Genestealers used to be up there and you'll still see a lot of lists based around them (usually as Kraken, with the Swarmlord as a catapult), but the points increase they got going into 9th combined with a focus on midfield objectives made them less of an auto-take.
That said, the main issue with trying to theorycraft a specific list at the moment is that a new codex is on the way, so it might not be the best idea to chase the current meta. But generally speaking, bulking out your existing units and adding a monster or two will improve the efficiency of what you already have, give you more than enough to build a casual list from, and provide flexibility for whatever the new edition brings.
On that note, pewter Tyranids show up regularly on eBay, so you shouldn't have any problems if you want to get more of the models you already have.
Happy to answer any more specific questions you have.
Niiai wrote:So with the new forge world rules are there new wind in the tyranid sails?
I hesitate to make any statements that will certainly be invalid when our codex comes out, which looks to be sometime in the next 3-6 months. But for now, I'd say there aren't any big changes, besides the Hierodules becoming useful overnight.
catbarf wrote: I'd say there aren't any big changes, besides the Hierodules becoming useful overnight.
Which is amazing, IMO.
I lament the drop in durability, but the fact that I don't have to take a separate detachment (and pay CP) just to use mine is such a boon that I don't really care. I really want to try both of mine out in a game now.
Tyran wrote: The Hierodule is better, but the Dima has an inherent invulnerable and a way to get FNP and moves as if it had FLY.
I could see Kraken lists that have 2 Hierodules with Dermic Symbiosis and also Dimas to move across more dense terrain.
IMHO it is a case of the Dima not being bad, it is just that the Hierodule is better.
I’ve had a long think about what’s the best thing to bring alongside two Dermic Scythed Hierodules. Dima’s aren’t priced bad but honestly T6 is a different ball game to T8 - however the invuln may even that up. I don’t know if just maxing up on Monster size melee beatsticks is the way tho, you mighnt have enough dice just to push infantry and stuff back. To be fair it still leaves 850 or so pts, but after a Malanthrope, some Neurothrope support, and scoring units of our own, as well as strong nods towards stuff like a Maleceptor and maybe a Swarmlord, I’m not sure that Dimas are the right unit. They might be though I dunno they are definitely not bad. Maybe just shoring up the rest of the list with things like Dakkafex or even Acid Spray Tyrannofex is an option.
But really a third Scythed Hierodule honestly is probably the best option especially since it comes with that flamer and isn’t much pricier than a Tyrannofex now, and this to me is a pretty good indicator of “I’m gonna wait for the dex” because when the dex comes there’ll definitely be better options. Points reductions on TFex and Carni’s will make them much more useful for example. [user]
Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever
Yeah, even Marines are combusting on a 50/50. Anything smaller is gonna probably lose a bunch of gribbles and anything like Plague Marines still run a significant risk of just giving up some free deaths. Not amazing ability but much better at S7.
Is there any way for us to improve strength characteristic? I know GSC has one for them I’m wondering if there’s anything in Blood of Baal or something that I’m missing. Probably not tho.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever
Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee. Both are as good, and running one of each is fine (though not ideal because ideally, you run only toughness 7 monsters, or onlyT8 monsters, or no monster at all (or perhaps one or two small tyrants/Swarmlord which can hide)
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever
Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee.
Yeah, Fly on the Dima makes it an interesting possibility but I just think the numbers on a dermic Hierodule are just that much better that it's worth playing around any problems with mobility. With Onslaught and Kraken strat and Swarmlord buff you can get to be Hierodule is lightning fast now anyway, with like average 46"-48" move before charging, I think he will be able to get to where he needs to get to, and both of them probably wanted to be supported with things that chew up chaff anyway. The flamer alone makes me say screw fly anyway lol and the rest of his damage output is so much heavier too. Just a beast.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ty that’s a bit better I guess. I think the invuln makes up for it either way durability wise, I think the real issue is that the Hierodule just does pretty much everything better and you probably don’t want 2 Hierodules + 3 worse versions of a Hierodule w no flamer on the table. Wouldn’t be awful in some matches but I think you need a more versatile range of threats and tools because not everything is gonna be SM or Custodes or whatever
Hierodule will have a hard time moving around with its very big base (not as much as the hierophant but still quite hard), when the dima will jump over all obstacles with glee.
Yeah, Fly on the Dima makes it an interesting possibility but I just think the numbers on a dermic Hierodule are just that much better that it's worth playing around any problems with mobility. With Onslaught and Kraken strat and Swarmlord buff you can get to be Hierodule is lightning fast now anyway, with like average 46"-48" move before charging, I think he will be able to get to where he needs to get to, and both of them probably wanted to be supported with things that chew up chaff anyway. The flamer alone makes me say screw fly anyway lol and the rest of his damage output is so much heavier too. Just a beast.
The last part is not true.
The Scythed Hierodule has better S (10 v 8), but both have the same A and WS and D. The Dima even has the advantage that it rerolls all hit rolls, while the Hierodule only rerolls 1s. This means Dima's damage output degrades better than the Hierodule.
The Hierodule is better at going against hard T8 targets, but the Dima is slightly better against softer targets.
In general I agree the Hierodule is better, but not "that much better".
I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.
Tyran wrote: Also the drop in durability is minor compared to the drop in cost.
Meaning point for point the Hierodule is actually more durable now.
if you filter these changes down to the smaller bugs in a manner of points per wound taken against common weapons
Possible tyranid codex becomes rather exciting with everything becoming much cheaper, or much tougher, or both
Tyran wrote: Also the drop in durability is minor compared to the drop in cost.
Meaning point for point the Hierodule is actually more durable now.
if you filter these changes down to the smaller bugs in a manner of points per wound taken against common weapons
Possible tyranid codex becomes rather exciting with everything becoming much cheaper, or much tougher, or both
So far necrons and marines got more expensive. GW's policy for 9th appears to be to reduce some of the model count for the 2K games compared to 8th. With 2K being the "default" they work toward I think they are aiming to find that sweet spot of allowing long term fans room to put hteir models on the table and new fans having a good chance of building up. It wouldn't surprise me if they start to introduce a 3K or 4K game mode between 2K and Apoc to try and give larger collections a chance on the tabletop and market whilst at the same time not making it pre-loaded with the Apoc theme which tends to start thinking about 10K and 20K per side in a battle and throwing down everything you can find.
I am expecting genestealers to go to 2 wounds and go up 2-3 points. So theres that.
I imagine synapse will change a bit again, mabey reducing in range but giving +1"M as well.
I fully expect our big bugs to go up in wounds and mabey a few points as well. carny's go up to 9 wounds and ol'one eye up to 11 but gets the bodyguard rule from carnies.
We already saw some weapon changes with the massive scything talons.
I expect the tervigon gets some sort of rework.
And o'l swarmlord himself will get the supreme commander treatment, loosing his 3++ in combat but only being able to loose 4 wounds per phase.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How much more expensive do you think they can make T and H Gaunts before no one ever takes them?
Back when I first started playing, Termagants were 8PPM and Hormagaunts were 10PPM.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with paying like 6pts for a Termagant or 8pts for a Hormagaunt if they had the stats to back it up. As just totally random examples, if Synapse conveyed an FNP and Hormagaunts picked up a bonus attack, they could strike a balance between competent stats and cheap enough cost to field in hordes. These creatures are supposed to be the size and weight of adult male lions, designed purely to kill- it's about time they felt the part, as opposed to getting clubbed by Guardsmen.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How much more expensive do you think they can make T and H Gaunts before no one ever takes them?
Back when I first started playing, Termagants were 8PPM and Hormagaunts were 10PPM.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with paying like 6pts for a Termagant or 8pts for a Hormagaunt if they had the stats to back it up. As just totally random examples, if Synapse conveyed an FNP and Hormagaunts picked up a bonus attack, they could strike a balance between competent stats and cheap enough cost to field in hordes. These creatures are supposed to be the size and weight of adult male lions, designed purely to kill- it's about time they felt the part, as opposed to getting clubbed by Guardsmen.
Adult lions ? If so they need a new plastic kit... I have like 70 of each gaunt type, I d be bummed... I personally wish hormas could just get a green tide strat, and termas just have better synergy with tervigon. Otherwise they are fine really. Unlike our MCs
feth I really hope they change this with the new codex next year. Otherwise I will never be able to play nidzilla. My meta Is full of as mech chickens and triple tank commanders and Harlequins fusion pistols spam. Nothing can survive T1 shooting
Hardcore Nidzilla is pretty much out of the question anyways with how 9E scoring works. You can run either infantry heavy, or balanced.
New codex isn't going to change that, unless some of our monsters get the ability of "counts-as x models". And I rate the chance of that happening at very low to non-existent.
Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter. As nids we have (comparatively) cheap gaunts which are very cost effective to hold objectives, the investment is minimal but necessary. 60 basic termas is 300 points. If the rest are monsters then you still have a nidzilla list IMHO, which looks much cooler, and works better, than a « pure » nidzilla list
addnid wrote: Which is good, because no one likes playing against skew lists where only AT weapons matter.
Like that means anything in 8th/9th, where anything can wound anything, and the most effective weapons are mid-strength mid-damage multi-shot weapons.
True in 8th. Not so true in 9th.
The latter designs are showing that GW is clearly empowering low shot count AT weapons (melta, railguns, gauss...) while leaving multi shot weapons in the same place. This is pushing those mid strenght high shot count weapons toward anti elite duty, while reserving the AT role to heavy calibers. You can even see that they nerfed the imperial fists trait to be in line with that.
What is missing in all this, is that it would have been a nice IF it was tied to an increase in durability of the tanks/monsters, so that they would become relatively more durable against anti elite weapons while still being vulnerable to AT weapons. Instead, they kept the old durability, so now monsters/tanks suffer anti elite weapons, and simply fold against real AT. They fixed only dreads, because the -1 damage is a perfect fix for this situation.
Tyranid Horde wrote:Hope folks don't mind me posting, I'm looking for a bit of advice on how best to update my Tyranid force that I've had since I was a teenager. The last proper edition I played Tyranids was 5th edition, so I do not have many of what were considered new then.
How much work would it be to shape the list of minis below into something that would be a respectable army on the tabletop? I can see from the lists posted that I'd basically need to start from scratch as there aren't many units I have that would be considered in a list, but help is always appreciated!
That's a pretty well-rounded collection and you certainly don't need to start from scratch for casual play. The only models I see there that aren't frequently used are Tyrant Guard, Gargoyles, and Deathleaper; of those Gargoyles can be used to decent effect and Lictors are very handy so Deathleaper can just be played as a normal Lictor. Everything else would do just fine as Kraken or Leviathan.
The main issue I see with this collection is really that Tyranids nowadays are 'go big or go home' with regards to unit composition, for three reasons: -We live or die on target saturation. One Carnifex is a fire magnet for every anti-tank unit in the enemy army. 3+ Carnifexes is better. 6+ Carnifexes is great. -Lots of our units get bonuses, both explicit and implicit, when taken in numbers. Gaunts get re-rolls, Genestealers get bonus attacks, Warriors get more mileage from the Prime aura. -Our stratagems (and Adaptive Physiology, from Blood of Baal) are enormous force multipliers, and larger units get correspondingly greater benefit.
So: if you're taking Hormagaunts, you usually want 20-30 per unit to swamp the enemy and tie up as many units as possible. If you're taking Warriors with a Prime, some people take units of 5 to avoid Blast, but I stick to 9 to maximize the number of Venom Cannons and the effect of Adaptive Physiology. Zoanthropes are a minimum squad size of 3, but taking 6 of them plus a Neurothrope massively increases their output and durability. If you want to bring big bugs that don't have invulns (see: Carnifexes), you want at least 3 at a minimum, and the more the merrier. Hive Guard have a minimum unit size of 3 to start with, but a squad of 6 gets the most out of Single-Minded Annihilation. And so on. The only units I regularly take at minimum size are Fleshborer-armed Termagants as throwaway screening units and Ripper Swarms as objective-grabbers.
Choice of hive fleet is also very important. Kraken and Leviathan improve mobility and durability respectively, so are good 'all-rounder' traits, but Jormungandr, Kronos, Gorgon, Hydra, and Behemoth all favor very specific playstyles and so will constrain your listbuilding. Hive fleet choice might be why you're getting the impression that most of your units aren't used; competitive Tyranid lists tend to lean hard into very specific units and builds. Of the two generalists, I've found Kraken to be immensely useful in 9th, and it's useful for everything you have except Hive Guard, so I'd start there.
At the moment, the two standout units that you will see in most lists are Hive Guard and Exocrines (usually played as Kronos). Hive Guard have excellent shooting that doesn't require LOS (making them easier to protect) and can pop Single-Minded Annihilation to shoot twice for 2CP, while Exocrines have an innate shoot-twice and a profile very well suited to killing Primaris. Genestealers used to be up there and you'll still see a lot of lists based around them (usually as Kraken, with the Swarmlord as a catapult), but the points increase they got going into 9th combined with a focus on midfield objectives made them less of an auto-take.
That said, the main issue with trying to theorycraft a specific list at the moment is that a new codex is on the way, so it might not be the best idea to chase the current meta. But generally speaking, bulking out your existing units and adding a monster or two will improve the efficiency of what you already have, give you more than enough to build a casual list from, and provide flexibility for whatever the new edition brings.
On that note, pewter Tyranids show up regularly on eBay, so you shouldn't have any problems if you want to get more of the models you already have.
Happy to answer any more specific questions you have.
Thanks a million for this, you're right that now is probably not the best time to invest in following a meta list but your advice does allow me to pick a few things up. I scouted eBay the other day and managed to pick up another 30 termagants and 20 hormagaunts in a lot along with some ripper bases, spore mines a biovore and a couple of tyrant guard in a job lot. If bodyguards are the way forward as we've seen with Necrons, maybe they'll be worthwhile if a foot tyrant is somehow better than a flyrant.
Interesting point to note for me is that the big bugs don't come cheap, even on eBay. I remember back in 5th when Carnifexes skyrocketed in points, you couldn't give them away!
Keen to see what 9th brings as a codex, I'm getting the bug itch again.
One tip for hive tyrants, the plastic kit is great, and if you can source a chest/abdomen from a bitz supplier you can get 2 tyrants out of one box (as the flyrant uses different lower half). I recently got hold of an armless and headless metal tyrant body, so used spare bits on a plastic sprue to make a swarmlord.
Anyone tried mass warriors with enhanced resilience for objective scoring?
I'm thinking of running two full broods (18 total) with deathspitters and dual boneswords, as KRAKEN.
They run forward quickly to reach objectives, firing off a decent number of shots and with some decent close combat ability, against infantry at least. They also have access to the -1 damage strat for warriors, and are of course fearless.
I know that's kind of a vague plan. They'd be supported by hormagaunts, 3 dimachaerons, and maybe a couple of other things like hiveguard. At around 30ppm depending on a few misc upgrades like venom cannons or adrenal glands, on paper that looks like good value to me.
Is there any consensus around dual boneswords vs. bonesword and lashwip? And I presume rending claws + toxin sacs are an inferior armament?
And are tyranid primes now necessary for these broods given the investment? They just seem pretty expensive to me.
catbarf wrote: I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.
This. With the new knowledge in the past couple of pages that Dima's are S7/T7, the flying movement, the fact that they don't need an adaptation at all for 5++, the fact that they can gain a FNP, and the mortal Wound combustions at the end of fight phase, and the fact that they are hitting most things just as hard, there's a really good case for Dima's being the better pick.
However, the flip side of the coin is that being better against T8 might still just be enough to make Hierodules better, considering how little other (good) options we have for dealing with T8.
I want to say btw, that at these new price points, Scythed Hierodule is basically just a way better version of an Acid Spray Tyrannofex, and Barbed Hierodule is a better version of Hive Guard, that cover both the same roles but also add a ton of brawling potential and high toughness saturation (and make great recipients of Dermic buffs too, our best adaptation, to further improve on that). Yeah, both those units still have a few of their own merits, but you need to have a VERY good reason to be picking them over the Dule's at this point imo.
Imo, both of the Dules and the Dima are very evenly balanced and I think all have a place and there's no "right" answer. I think Scythed Hierodule is probably the most well rounded, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best pick or most efficient. If you want melee brawling I think the Dima wins out.
catbarf wrote: I didn't realize how similar the Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule are in offensive profile. On the face of it, losing the shooting attack and a bit of S and T to get an innate 5+ invuln, potential 5+ FNP, better degradation, and terrain traversal doesn't seem like a bad trade- at the very least, just having a big bug that doesn't need Dermic Symbiosis is handy.
I want to say btw, that at these new price points, Scythed Hierodule is basically just a way better version of an Acid Spray Tyrannofex, and Barbed Hierodule is a better version of Hive Guard, that cover both the same roles but also add a ton of brawling potential and high toughness saturation (and make great recipients of Dermic buffs too, our best adaptation, to further improve on that). Yeah, both those units still have a few of their own merits, but you need to have a VERY good reason to be picking them over the Dule's at this point imo.
Imo, both of the Dules and the Dima are very evenly balanced and I think all have a place and there's no "right" answer. I think Scythed Hierodule is probably the most well rounded, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best pick or most efficient. If you want melee brawling I think the Dima wins out.
IMHO the only constant drawback I see with our immensely improved 18wounds beasts is that you more or less need (in my meta anyway) to take a malanthrope (or venom but malanthrope seems waaay better now for MCs) to help them survive early turns. I don’t see this as a huge drawback at all, but that is another 150 points to factor in. All my next army lists are going to feature one of each dule and a dima so for me the malanthrope is auto include (54 wounds total, and 830 points to protect).
Will malanthropes be needed for just two of these big ones ? Dima can hide then move + kill + overrun back to safety on terrain heavy tables so...
Tyranofex is pointless now with scythed D, but hive guard still require very little support to function, whereas a barbed dule will IMO require a little support,
No real resilient scoring but whatever it's Nidzilla you need to weigh em down with big bugs. The plus side is this is gonna be extremely hard to push into, every big bug has an invul, and you can't really expect to use CC to push them off once they get stuck in, it's gonna take more than a Smash Captain or two to stop this sort of Nidzilla.
I think this is a pretty damn resilient list. Over 100 T7/T8 wounds with invuls isn't trivial for anything, and that's before the Malanthrope bubble and possibly the FNPs/Catalysts. It's also pretty mobile I think you would basically own the field with this.
I love Nidzilla, so I'd invest into this, BUT I feel like the codex is around the corner so who knows. This will be strong either way though I think.
