NinthMusketeer wrote: With 4 ranks attacking and a 6" pile-in I do not see how getting them in range to attack is a problem, once they have made the charge.
I mean even giving you the benefit of the doubt on this first squad, I'm talking about spamming them. You're just not gonna be able to apply significant damage across the board.
Ohh, I gotcha. The idea is more as a silly/for-fun option than any serious strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote: At this point I would answer myself why I am spending so many points and an entire detachment just to play over costed tarpits
Because making weeny little hormagaunts ap -2 (or better) is funny
NinthMusketeer wrote: So, given that I cannot try it out myself given coronavirus...
Has anyone tried the 2+ save (vs shooting) genestealer combo? Though clearly not an optimized loadout it seems like it would viable enough for fun games.
On a similar note, how about AP -2 hormagaunt custom fleet?
I watched a fun you tube video recently that used the wolverine-homies and it seemed viable. Don't have a link, but it should be easy to google.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So, given that I cannot try it out myself given coronavirus...
Has anyone tried the 2+ save (vs shooting) genestealer combo? Though clearly not an optimized loadout it seems like it would viable enough for fun games.
On a similar note, how about AP -2 hormagaunt custom fleet?
I watched a fun you tube video recently that used the wolverine-homies and it seemed viable. Don't have a link, but it should be easy to google.
I will add 100 hormagaunts to my quarantine painting pile because this sounds fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of, as I have been working my way through my painting pile, I came up with the following build and would like to know where people think I should put my Adaptive Physiology's:
Jormungandr Battalion
Malanthrope
Neurothrope (Lurking Maws)
Prime (Boneswords, Deathspitter)
I think I want to just put a durability buff on the Warriors for the Adaptive, either +1 cover or ignores -1/-2 AP.
I could shuffle things around, trim some points, and get a double battalion, but I really want Lurking Maws for the devilgaunts. I could try putting the Warriors in the Kronos detachment, but the Prime and the Malenthrope want to be in the same detachment as the Warriors, which leaves me with three HQ in a detachment. Maybe Venomthropes instead of the Malenthrope?
NinthMusketeer wrote: So, given that I cannot try it out myself given coronavirus...
Has anyone tried the 2+ save (vs shooting) genestealer combo? Though clearly not an optimized loadout it seems like it would viable enough for fun games.
On a similar note, how about AP -2 hormagaunt custom fleet?
I watched a fun you tube video recently that used the wolverine-homies and it seemed viable. Don't have a link, but it should be easy to google.
I will add 100 hormagaunts to my quarantine painting pile because this sounds fun.
Let us know if you manage the legendary AP -4 Hormagaunt!
I had a game last night where some 10 ork flashgits shot off 6 hiveguards in cover with - 1 to hit turn one.
I was not left with much anti tank. On topp of that itvturned out his sparkly custom job mde his big walker have bs4. It went bad quickly!
As far as I know we only have four sources of good anti tank if you wnat to include old one eye. Him, hive guars, tyranofex with rupture cannon and exoagrine. Now I do not own the last two.
I have carnifexes with heavy venom cannons but they are so bad! Very exapensive for what they do and there is a question of no good weapons to mach it with. Likevice warrior venom cannons are not reliable.
With blood of ball are there any other option for good anti tank? :-/
I played a game awhile ago with the ap-1 and 6++ custom hive fleet setup vs ynarri (mostly dark Eldar with a few craftworld from the eldar vs eldar box) and they did exceptionally well. I ran 2 large 30 hormagaunt blobs and a 10 man squad of tyranid warriors with deathspitters and the camouflage adaptation. Stuck the warriors on cover turn 1, ran the bugs forward and had a blast.
The ability to get those little guys to ap-3 potentially is just so nasty. Ap-1 from hive fleet, ap-1 from hormagaunt strat, and permanent ap-1 from other strat when they kill something.... not that I needed ap-3 vs eldar but it seems threatening enough to me for the cost of the unit that your opponent has to target them fast or things get out of hand real quickly.
Also the 6++ is amazingly good if your spamming little bugs.
Niiai wrote: I had a game last night where some 10 ork flashgits shot off 6 hiveguards in cover with - 1 to hit turn one.
I was not left with much anti tank. On topp of that itvturned out his sparkly custom job mde his big walker have bs4. It went bad quickly!
As far as I know we only have four sources of good anti tank if you wnat to include old one eye. Him, hive guars, tyranofex with rupture cannon and exoagrine. Now I do not own the last two.
I have carnifexes with heavy venom cannons but they are so bad! Very exapensive for what they do and there is a question of no good weapons to mach it with. Likevice warrior venom cannons are not reliable.
With blood of ball are there any other option for good anti tank? :-/
What are the chanses a Behemot Trygon Prime makes his charge with the adrenalin glands relic from blood of ball (changing from 2d6+1 to 3d6 pick the hieghest 2.) Remember behemot re-rolls charges. Also, you can CP re-roll if you roll a 6.
Ranged anti tank? As NinthMusketeer said biovores are really all I can think of beyond what you already mentioned. Niiai, you said you lost 6 hive guard in cover to those orks. Were you using impaler cannons or shock cannons? I ask only because impalers don't need los and are typically a great option for dealing with anything in the game as long as you can hide them behind los terrain.
I played another game last night vs my neighbor, he was playing Eldar/dark eldar again vs the swarm. Again I went with custom hive fleet for 6++ and sything talons getting-1 ap. My list.
We played Frontline Warfare. He was running a very heavy de list, a ton of poison weapons and everything in transports, and I thought i was in trouble. I mean that ment all my bug bugs were going to get wounded on a 4+ vs his basic weapons! Plus he was going first, so I just started with everything except the lictors and 2 squads of rippers in deep strike. I figured give him as many targets as I could and hope things survive.
Turn 1 he unloaded on my big bugs. Thankfully I had put the tervigon behind some big los blocking terrain, she was still able to be shot at by half his army but his ravagers needed to move and 1 still couldn't see. After all his shooting I escaped without losing a single unit! He did drop my venom cannon hive tyrant to 1 wound but the tough sob managed to live through it all! Best of all he had deployed defensive so when he moved forwards he wasn't on the center objectives yet. So I had tervigon on 12 wounds, 1 tyrant at 9, 1 at 1, and the 3rd at full health. I did lose a few hormagaunts but nothing serious. Also I had spent 2cp to be in cover t1, and using that strategy for warriors to take less wounds he shot at them and ended up only putting 2 wounds on 1.
My t1 i rushed forward, grabbed the center objectives. I advanced the warriors and tyranid prime into cover. I then cast catalyst on the hormagaunts but did it on double 6's. This scared me enough that i wasn't going to take any chances and just moved to shooting. the termagaunts utterly destroyed some splinter cannon scourges, and my biovores/warriors/hive tyrant with cannon dropped a raider to 1 wound (my shooting was absolutely horrid there) but this did leave a few spore mines floating around his back lines. I then charged his incubi and drazeer with my 9 wound hive tyrant and the ravages (those guys are so awesome and cheap!) Killing the incubi and dropping drazeer to 3 wounds. On the other flank my fully healed hive tyrant charged a venom and killed it, the de warriors lost 2 guys to the vehicle dying and piled out. I then consolidated into them to get me a few inches closer to his line.
Score was 6 to 1 at this point.
His turn 2 he tried to focus on my big bugs again. The table was covered in bugs so he couldn't drop his wrathguard squad anywhere other than his back field, and even then thanks to the spore mines they would have not had good targets. He tried to reposition to get los on the tervigon, he wanted her dead so he could focus on the termigaunts. He fell back out of combat with his warriors and then moved jain zar with her banshees up towards the combat with the drazeer. Drazeer fell back (coward!) And then he went into his shooting phase. He fired with what he had at what was around, killing 7 hormagaunts, dropping big momma bug to 3, killing a ravaner, and dropping the wounded hive tyrant to 6 and the fully healed one to 10. The banshees charged with jain zar into the 6 wound tyrant and dropping him to 3 wounds. However he had not moved his warriors far enough from my tyrant, so he heroically intervened, killed them, and I spent a cp to boost his melee ap by 1 (yeah ap-4 on talons is silly but I had a plan and was trying to take no chances).
My turn the hormagaunts and termagauhts moved up, the ravaners got near drazeer to recharge him, the ap-4 tyrant flew up towards his objective that had a falcon sitting on it, and I popped a Lictor up on his back line near the falcon. Shooting was bad, I did manage to kill 2 vypers and a single scourge, but yeah my rolls turned bad here. Still I then charged forward, ravagers hitting drazeer and the banshees, hormagaunts hitting 2 venoms, lictor surviving overwatch from the falcon with 1 wound and making his 9" charge thanks to his reroll ability, and the hive tyrant getting in with the falcon as well. My hive tyrant swung at the falcon but I forgot about the 1cp strat to reroll failed wounds and only managed to do 6 dmg to it. Everyone else swung horrifically and all I managed to do was put 2 wounds on a venom, 1 additional wound to drazeer, kill 4 banshees, and then the hive tyrant vs jain zar got smoked and killed.
Turns out we called here though because I had more models on his objective than he did thanks to the Lictor, score was 15 to 1 and he didn't think he could come back. Granted it looked really bad for him but I think I was in bad shape as well. Next turn he was going to kill my ravagers, the tervigon, the 1 wound remaining hive tyrant, and probably my other tyrant since the only place to drop his wraithguard in would have been back near him. But I still would have had 21 hormagaunts, 30 Termagants, 9 rippers, 9 warriors with my tyranid prime (warlord with the crown too), 6 biovores, and 2 more lictors to pop up. Plus I still would have had the center and my back field so yeah, while he could have took a huge chunk out of my force I don't think he could have come back and won.
I am really enjoying the custom hive fleet. The 6++ is so nice for my little guys and so many things can get normal talons so giving them all ap-1 is just so good. Especially with the strat to go an additional ap-1 if you kill something on the fight phase...
Unyielding chitlin strat on warriors whith them getting a 2+ save while in cover is really good as well. It almost makes me want to run Jormungandr with them, but not quite. Same with the tervigon, she was amazing with the termigaunts. Giving her the 5++ save was huge but that meant I couldn't give one of my hive tyrants monstrous size for that bonus. But with her in kraken she could take the relic to give her -1 to hit. That would really help her survival and help make the Termagants even better, but is that worth giving up 6++ on so many little bugs (I am currently working on adding 30 gargoyles to my list because no one runs them and I think they have harassment value) and -1 ap on Scything talon?
Ah. That is really unfortunate. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do, but it sounds like you had the right tool to complete the job, you just lost it before you could use it. :(
Tyranids need to come at multiple angles imo. One unit of Hive Guard is enough. Some games they are amazing, some games they flop real hard as the enemy list will just have an easy answer. You don't want to have 1/4 of your army being Hive Guard in those games. Back them up with other quality answers, like Exocrine, or Biovores. Having multiple angles to achieve a similar goal, rather than investing too much into a single type of unit, is important when some stuff is just flat out 'countered' but things like "ignores LoS" or "decent range plus deepstrike/tablelength movespeed".
Speaking of Biovores, how are you folks finding them nowadays? I've got four sitting unassembled and was tempted to pick up another two for a more round number, but I'm a little skeptical that 240pts of Biovores can pull their weight.
My gut feeling is that Zoanthropes seem the better choice for spamming mortal wounds, and the movement-blocking shenanigans spore mines provide might not be worth the investment. Maybe just three? Or am I totally off in my assessment altogether?
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Thoughts?
Wouldn't legendary fighter be better than the monstrous hunger WLT? It's another base attack at 4D (5D if toxin procs) vs a 1/3 chance of making the other four attacks 6D instead of 5D.
Niiai wrote:
With blood of ball are there any other option for good anti tank? :-/
I vaguely remember Carnifexes with Slimer Maggot Deathspitters being popular for a little while.
For non-Exocrine/Tyrannofex/Hive Guard anti-armor, repeated Smites are fairly consistent as long as the vehicle doesn't have a wound-mitigation rule like Disgusting Resilience or Rugged Construction. We have a lot of incidental psykers so it usually isn't hard to pile mortal wounds on.
If the problem vehicle is a gun platform like a Leman Russ, you could also always just send a blob of Hormagaunts or Gargoyles in to tie it down for the rest of the game.
catbarf wrote:Speaking of Biovores, how are you folks finding them nowadays? I've got four sitting unassembled and was tempted to pick up another two for a more round number, but I'm a little skeptical that 240pts of Biovores can pull their weight.
I only have 3 but I've found them valuable in every game I have brought them. Their maximum damage potential isn't especially high, but they are extremely user-friendly due to all the rules they can bypass and their range being almost table-wide. Mine tend to wait until everything else has shot and then aim for whatever is the most crippled target remaining.
In regards to the comparison to Zoanthropes, apart from both being able to dish out mortal wounds from extended ranges the two don't really overlap much. Zoanthropes are somewhat limited in what they can target offensively due to the rules of Smite, while Biovores have almost no limitations on what they can target between their range and indirect fire rules. Zoanthropes make up for their limitations by being relatively tough and providing synapse, but as offensive pieces Biovores are more reliable (if perhaps less spectacular in terms of raw damage).
Nitro Zeus wrote: Hive Guard, Biovores, Exocrine, Old One Eye, and Smites / Scream are our best options for dealing with tank imo
GSC allies let you include Rock Saw Acolytes and more powers, but I'm not sold on the Acolytes these days.
Acolytes are one of best damage dealers in the game ppm, also they benefit much more from a Lictor with ignore overwatch stratagem than Tyranids themselves
Yeah but this game is more than just mathhammer. You have to apply that damage, and there is more DS-countering gak out here than ever before, people are screening better than ever before, and in general the tactic is just not as effective as it once was. OOE can hide behind your wall of bodies or T8. Hive Guard/Biovores can hide out of sight and range, and Exocrine's are good value targets for Dermic Symbiosis, for difficult to shift but high damage targets that can also be stacked next to similar size creatures. And Neurothropes/Broodlords are some of the best units in the dex in terms of value. Acolytes are a big investment into a glass cannon, that often isn't able to do its job, and some games, just whiffs entirely. So I'm less sold these days on Acolytes and it's a conclusion that is shared by top Tyranid players too.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah but this game is more than just mathhammer. You have to apply that damage, and there is more DS-countering gak out here than ever before, people are screening better than ever before, and in general the tactic is just not as effective as it once was. OOE can hide behind your wall of bodies or T8. Hive Guard/Biovores can hide out of sight and range, and Exocrine's are good value targets for Dermic Symbiosis, for difficult to shift but high damage targets that can also be stacked next to similar size creatures. And Neurothropes/Broodlords are some of the best units in the dex in terms of value. Acolytes are a big investment into a glass cannon, that often isn't able to do its job, and some games, just whiffs entirely. So I'm less sold these days on Acolytes and it's a conclusion that is shared by top Tyranid players too.
You still need to somehow deal with chaff and screen and no, Hive Guard/Biovores/Exocrines are not efficient at all in this department.
Stock acolytes are still better for chaff clearing purposes than any other choice in both codices
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah but this game is more than just mathhammer. You have to apply that damage, and there is more DS-countering gak out here than ever before, people are screening better than ever before, and in general the tactic is just not as effective as it once was. OOE can hide behind your wall of bodies or T8. Hive Guard/Biovores can hide out of sight and range, and Exocrine's are good value targets for Dermic Symbiosis, for difficult to shift but high damage targets that can also be stacked next to similar size creatures. And Neurothropes/Broodlords are some of the best units in the dex in terms of value. Acolytes are a big investment into a glass cannon, that often isn't able to do its job, and some games, just whiffs entirely. So I'm less sold these days on Acolytes and it's a conclusion that is shared by top Tyranid players too.
You still need to somehow deal with chaff and screen and no, Hive Guard/Biovores/Exocrines are not efficient at all in this department.
Stock acolytes are still better for chaff clearing purposes than any other choice in both codices
You somehow have seemed to completely missed the point of this discussion, which was the current best options for ANTI-TANK. Not for dealing with infantry.
Well once I have finished gluing up the leman russ I got on sale I will be owning a russ, 1 goloath rockgrinder and 3 mortar models. I guess that means I can start running GSC as allies
I have had a bit of hiatus from the game.
Once thing I liked a lot since my hiatus is GSC has droped in points on some things. And the greater book is out. Cutom made 'Workers Arissen' + 'Seasoned Enforces' means a small group of acolytes with mining lasers can be good. 2 ranged 24 lascannon shots on BS4+ with re-roll to hit is good at 74 points. Add inn 2 webbers for 76 points total and I have some flamers to shoot 14" away, and flame things that try to charge me. Sounds like good allies in my mind. Run 3 or 4 groups of this could help out on my anti tank along the leman russ.
Nitro Zeus wrote:
GSC allies let you include Rock Saw Acolytes and more powers, but I'm not sold on the Acolytes these days.
I suppose if we are also looking at GSC for anti-armor I'd suggest looking at a squadron of Achilles Ridgerunners with Heavy Mining Laser and an Alphus to paint targets for them. They are fairly consistent with the different force multipliers available to them and are fairly easy to hide (the models themselves are fairly squat and they have two different deployment tricks - plus as squadrons 3 vehicles can fit as 1 ambush token).
Also in regards to the concerns raised regarding the effectiveness of Acolytes, I'd submit that the issue is more related to deepstrike rules in the current environment generally than Acolytes specifically. It is mostly antidotal on my part, but I have had success delivering them via mech in an environment dominated by deepstrike denial and some of my hybrid lists have been doing well with smaller (10-strong) squads working in tandem with Jackals.
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Stock acolytes are still better for chaff clearing purposes than any other choice in both codices
If you are looking purely at damage Metamorphs are better vs most chaff types. Assuming both are stock 5 strong squads and have no outside assistance, Acolytes will on average kill about 5-6 guardsmen while Metamorphs squad will kill 8 on average. Metamorphs are also comparatively expendable elites while Acolytes are comparatively more valuable troops, so when it comes down to which unit to trade for a screen the Metas are an easier pick (plus they are perfectly lethal in small squads, so they generally are a smaller total investment that can break even or pull ahead in the trade). Now admittedly Acolytes can do the job "good enough", but it does waste some of their generalist capabilities while doing so.
I do think my favorite chaff clearer remains the venerable Dakkafex. Volume of fire tears up most things and it has enough versatility to be a generalist choice.
Nitro Zeus wrote:
GSC allies let you include Rock Saw Acolytes and more powers, but I'm not sold on the Acolytes these days.
I suppose if we are also looking at GSC for anti-armor I'd suggest looking at a squadron of Achilles Ridgerunners with Heavy Mining Laser and an Alphus to paint targets for them. They are fairly consistent with the different force multipliers available to them and are fairly easy to hide (the models themselves are fairly squat and they have two different deployment tricks - plus as squadrons 3 vehicles can fit as 1 ambush token).
Also in regards to the concerns raised regarding the effectiveness of Acolytes, I'd submit that the issue is more related to deepstrike rules in the current environment generally than Acolytes specifically. It is mostly antidotal on my part, but I have had success delivering them via mech in an environment dominated by deepstrike denial and some of my hybrid lists have been doing well with smaller (10-strong) squads working in tandem with Jackals.
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Stock acolytes are still better for chaff clearing purposes than any other choice in both codices
If you are looking purely at damage Metamorphs are better vs most chaff types. Assuming both are stock 5 strong squads and have no outside assistance, Acolytes will on average kill about 5-6 guardsmen while Metamorphs squad will kill 8 on average. Metamorphs are also comparatively expendable elites while Acolytes are comparatively more valuable troops, so when it comes down to which unit to trade for a screen the Metas are an easier pick (plus they are perfectly lethal in small squads, so they generally are a smaller total investment that can break even or pull ahead in the trade). Now admittedly Acolytes can do the job "good enough", but it does waste some of their generalist capabilities while doing so.
I do think my favorite chaff clearer remains the venerable Dakkafex. Volume of fire tears up most things and it has enough versatility to be a generalist choice.
Yeah Metamorphs are indeed an appealing choice now thanks to a reduction in points and 1 CP for +1 attacks, although you gotta specifically take them in an Elite slot (So no Troop slots filling capabilities) and can't do anything else
There is a little over 200 points left over to get to 2000 points, so there are some variations but the general core of T8 monsters and a swarm of replenishing T3 bugs remains the same. The Malceptor is the lynchpin that makes this mess work, since the -1 strength aura gives Termagants remarkable resiliency against common S4/S3 anti-infantry guns and the monsters become resistant to anything less than a Lascannon. When things reopen I am considering picking up a second one for redundancy purposes.
Had another game last night, got stomped by adeptus custodies / grey knights. I made quite a few mistakes looking back on it so its not like my opponent didn't deserve it. Mission was 4 pillers and when the game was called turn 4 the score was 2 to 0, so we both gave it our all.
I did try some new things out last night, only ran 2 hive tyrants and I tried 2 mawlocks. Tyrants did very good, but I really felt I needed a 3rd one there. Mawlocks were not so good but I rolled miserable for their saves (1 died to bolter / spear shooting because I couldn't roll higher than a 3.... it happens :p). Because I think their failure had more to do with my rolls and less to do with how good they can be i want to try them again. The strat for +2 to the dice rolls when 1 pops up is nice, the one did 7 mortal wounds when he popped out of the ground so that was cool.
What are the thoughts on running a bare bones cheap hive tyrant? I am thinking double rending claws, no wings. Make it monsterous size and give it the relic The Maw-claws of Thyrax. This would make him 143 pts, with 4 attacks being str 7 ap-4 d3+1 dmg, could be cool. And 6's to wound would be ap-7 (just why?????) And 4dmg flat.
There is a little over 200 points left over to get to 2000 points, so there are some variations but the general core of T8 monsters and a swarm of replenishing T3 bugs remains the same. The Malceptor is the lynchpin that makes this mess work, since the -1 strength aura gives Termagants remarkable resiliency against common S4/S3 anti-infantry guns and the monsters become resistant to anything less than a Lascannon. Just about everything has a high priority for destruction as well, save the Termagants and to a lesser extent the Tyrannofexes.
It's not a good list imo. If you replace Tyrannofex with shooty Foot Tyrants, take something else instead of Tervigons (Neurothropes and Malanthropes) and go for Jormungandr/Leviathan instead of Kronos you actually have quite a sturdy and tanky list to face. The advantage of being wounded by S9 weaponries (which is 90% Lascannons) is completely offset by the lack of invulnerable saves on the board (and you are going to give both Exocrines a 5++) which in tandem with -1 to hit and still -1 Strenght (and T7 Monsters keep benefitting from it when the weapons are S4/S7/S8) makes the list much better than "lol spam T8 but they're actually not really resilient and overpriced as feth".
It's not a good list imo. If you replace Tyrannofex with shooty Foot Tyrants
I am fully open to exchanging the Tyrannofexes. They were mainly included because they went well with the other components and provided a solution for T8+ targets.
take something else instead of Tervigons (Neurothropes and Malanthropes) and go for Jormungandr/Leviathan instead of Kronos you actually have quite a sturdy and tanky list to face.
The thing is, the list as structured right now (plus or minus a few things) has been very resilient during the critical early turns because of the Tervigons soaking up anti-armor fire and replenishing Termagant losses. Even with full damage mitigation it is common to loose 15-20 odd Termagants from a squad. However, the presence of the Tervigons completely nullifies the damage provided at least one Termagant survives (which has generally been achieved with positioning). If the Tervigons are not killed early the Termagants + Tervigons will generally grind down and overwhelm opposing troops on objectives, while if they are destroyed it leaves the Exocrines free to blast away longer than they otherwise might have been allowed to.
I've mostly been sticking with pure Kronos for Symbiostorm and how well the adaptation as a whole plays with Exocrines and the Tyrannofexes, but I have also used Leviathan with variants of the build successfully. As-is the Termagants in the list have full rerolls built in from the Tervigon (reroll 1's to hit) and their 20+ model bonus (reroll 1's to wound).
The advantage of being wounded by S9 weaponries (which is 90% Lascannons) is completely offset by the lack of invulnerable saves on the board (and you are going to give both Exocrines a 5++) which in tandem with -1 to hit and still -1 Strenght (and T7 Monsters keep benefitting from it when the weapons are S4/S7/S8) makes the list much better than "lol spam T8 but they're actually not really resilient and overpriced as feth".
The key distinction is that with T8 monsters any S8 weapons need a 5+ to wound with Encephalic Diffusion up. S8 covers the vast majority of anti-tank weaponry in the game so as a whole it makes T8 a significant advantage over T7 in this context. High AP doesn't matter as much if 2/3rds of hits fail to wound. The Malceptor itself also comes with an invulnerable save, so realistically the only monsters that won't be shielded are the Tervigons (which as mentioned, the list is generally fine with having targeted since it lets the fire support run longer).
It's not a good list imo. If you replace Tyrannofex with shooty Foot Tyrants
I am fully open to exchanging the Tyrannofexes. They were mainly included because they went well with the other components and provided a solution for T8+ targets.
take something else instead of Tervigons (Neurothropes and Malanthropes) and go for Jormungandr/Leviathan instead of Kronos you actually have quite a sturdy and tanky list to face.
The thing is, the list as structured right now (plus or minus a few things) has been very resilient during the critical early turns because of the Tervigons soaking up anti-armor fire and replenishing Termagant losses. Even with full damage mitigation it is common to loose 15-20 odd Termagants from a squad. However, the presence of the Tervigons completely nullifies the damage provided at least one Termagant survives (which has generally been achieved with positioning). If the Tervigons are not killed early the Termagants + Tervigons will generally grind down and overwhelm opposing troops on objectives, while if they are destroyed it leaves the Exocrines free to blast away longer than they otherwise might have been allowed to.
I've mostly been sticking with pure Kronos for Symbiostorm and how well the adaptation as a whole plays with Exocrines and the Tyrannofexes, but I have also used Leviathan with variants of the build successfully. As-is the Termagants in the list have full rerolls built in from the Tervigon (reroll 1's to hit) and their 20+ model bonus (reroll 1's to wound).
The advantage of being wounded by S9 weaponries (which is 90% Lascannons) is completely offset by the lack of invulnerable saves on the board (and you are going to give both Exocrines a 5++) which in tandem with -1 to hit and still -1 Strenght (and T7 Monsters keep benefitting from it when the weapons are S4/S7/S8) makes the list much better than "lol spam T8 but they're actually not really resilient and overpriced as feth".
The key distinction is that with T8 monsters any S8 weapons need a 5+ to wound with Encephalic Diffusion up. S8 covers the vast majority of anti-tank weaponry in the game so as a whole it makes T8 a significant advantage over T7 in this context. High AP doesn't matter as much if 2/3rds of hits fail to wound. The Malceptor itself also comes with an invulnerable save, so realistically the only monsters that won't be shielded are the Tervigons (which as mentioned, the list is generally fine with having targeted since it lets the fire support run longer).
Being wounded on 4s whilst having a 4++ is mathematically miles ahead of being wounded on 5s with a 6+ armor save "at best". Encephalic Diffusion pairs best with T3 and T7 models with Invulnerable save rather than mere T8 3+ beasts that are also pricier. Also T7 gains one of unique advantages T8 had which is "immunity" to S4 weapons (considering that wounding on 6s is really hard to digest when the model is also multiwound with multiple saves and/or further defensive buffs) and oddly better ppw ratio.
The list itself is very easy to counter considering that all it has it mere antitank weaponry and 12" antinfantry. Your opponent could completely ignore termagants if conscious that he won't be able to kill a unit in one go and focus all the Tyrannofexes/Exocrines (or if not dangerous/visible just explode one Tervigon at time) till you literally have nothing else. The "resilience" Tervigons provide is completely conditional and not "always in effect" like the Malanthrope/Maleceptor bubbles/6+++.
Well actually, assuming an autohit that needs a 5+ to wound and allows a 6+ save you're looking at 0.2739 unsaved wounds, which is only a little bit worse than the 0.25 you'd get with a 4+ to wound/4++ save hit. </comicbookguy>
shortymcnostrill wrote: Well actually, assuming an autohit that needs a 5+ to wound and allows a 6+ save you're looking at 0.2739 unsaved wounds, which is only a little bit worse than the 0.25 you'd get with a 4+ to wound/4++ save hit. </comicbookguy>
In best case scenario for a T8 3+ (Lascannon hits turned into S8, therefore actually working only on a T8 3+ profile instead of T7 4++), an autohitting lascannon deals 1.167 Damage in a T7 4++ case VS 1.458 for a T8 3+ unit; as you can see even with the added benefit of having the shot wounding on 4s instead of 3s the T7 4++ emerges victorious, but that's only a single common case.
What about a Melta-like shot? It does 1,167 Damage on a T8 3+ chassis (we're always considering the Encephalic Diffusion stratagem) whilst the other T7 4++ profile only gets 0,875 points of damage.
The other cases are following the same outlined path with T7 4++ being better or on par with T8 3+ (like Autocannons/Grenade Launchers and so on) in all common AND uncommon cases and actually depriving T8 3+ of its best advantage which is S4 spam to deal few wounds on a T7 chassis (which is now wounded on 6s like a T8 3+)
TL;DR T7 4++ is always better even with Encephalic Diffusion (only fringe case is Heavy Bolter spam)
Was a fun list, still trying different things out. Those custodies are tough nuts to crack lol.
Mel (my Maleceptor) was actually quite vital to the list with the Encephalic Diffusion strat. I bring this up since that's what's been discussed the most recently. I was quite happy with his effectiveness.
My queen hive tyrant (non winged version from 3rd edition, the one that looks like an Alien) did good as well, she ended up killing 4 custodies terminators in cc (over 2 rounds) and did 6 wounds to a shield captain on a bike with a 3++ save. She did finally die to the massive firepower of the custodie grav tank with 2 big cannons on it (don't remember its name sorry) but she did quite well for herself. Rolling those 6's to wound.... there is something just flat out silly about ap-7 d4 attacks. I should find the points and give her scything talons or devourers or something, but I am using her as a distraction that shouldn't be ignored and she did that just fine.
Tyranofexs did fail horribly for me though. Even shooting 12 Rupture cannon shots a turn they didn't do anything of note until t4 when they gunned down an entire squad of custodies. Otherwise they were... not accurate at all. I dont think it was their fault, t1 out of 12 shots 10 missed. I need to learn how to roll better lol.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Well actually, assuming an autohit that needs a 5+ to wound and allows a 6+ save you're looking at 0.2739 unsaved wounds, which is only a little bit worse than the 0.25 you'd get with a 4+ to wound/4++ save hit. </comicbookguy>
In best case scenario for a T8 3+ (Lascannon hits turned into S8, therefore actually working only on a T8 3+ profile instead of T7 4++), an autohitting lascannon deals 1.167 Damage in a T7 4++ case VS 1.458 for a T8 3+ unit; as you can see even with the added benefit of having the shot wounding on 4s instead of 3s the T7 4++ emerges victorious, but that's only a single common case.
What about a Melta-like shot? It does 1,167 Damage on a T8 3+ chassis (we're always considering the Encephalic Diffusion stratagem) whilst the other T7 4++ profile only gets 0,875 points of damage.
The other cases are following the same outlined path with T7 4++ being better or on par with T8 3+ (like Autocannons/Grenade Launchers and so on) in all common AND uncommon cases and actually depriving T8 3+ of its best advantage which is S4 spam to deal few wounds on a T7 chassis (which is now wounded on 6s like a T8 3+)
TL;DR T7 4++ is always better even with Encephalic Diffusion (only fringe case is Heavy Bolter spam)
Why does this matter, though? You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, as you've shown, you get more value out of *the Maleceptor* your way. But if you're not better served by a Hive Tyrant or other Maleceptor (the only T7 4++s in the book...) than you are by a Tyrannofex or an Exocrine, this exercise is pointless. I'd rather have the offensive output of the big boys and the boons from the Maleceptor may not affect them equally, but I still get a lot of mileage out of it with T8. Maybe I'm moving the goalpost here but taking T7 because it's boosted by the Maleceptor more is sort of the tail wagging the dog.
Not sure what the above argument is about and I don't really care to read into it because it looks like a regular kurtangle2 debate, but I'll say that I've put a Maleceptor into my Nidzilla. No reason not to, it's a really good addition and at worst, is something else that draws fire off everything else. Maleceptor + Malanthrope makes 80x T8 wounds not easy to shift for anyone. And he threatens the psychic nova, which probably won't do much but it's there, and also is a +1 to cast caster, what's not to love.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Not sure what the above argument is about and I don't really care to read into it because it looks like a regular kurtangle2 debate, but I'll say that I've put a Maleceptor into my Nidzilla. No reason not to, it's a really good addition and at worst, is something else that draws fire off everything else. Maleceptor + Malanthrope makes 80x T8 wounds not easy to shift for anyone. And he threatens the psychic nova, which probably won't do much but it's there, and also is a +1 to cast caster, what's not to love.
You should as the bare minimum get to read what other people say about the same topic you've been upping now. TL;DR was that Maleceptor (built around the stratagem) is good and has the biggest benefits for T3/T4/T7/T8 bodies (which are 90% of the codex) with T7 having access to more mathematical advantages than T8. This does not mean that you shouldn't play T8 but in the discussion above I've suggested not to spam Tyrannofexes/Tervigons just because they were T8 since it's still a bad MC even with Maleceptor support
Nah, I'm not inclined to read all your arguments, just to have my own opinion and experience on a model. You do you, my experience has clearly differed from yours. Sounds like you're tl;dr isn't really summing up any of that discussion anyway, just your own opinion, as what I gathered skimming through was that everyone disagreed with you anyway
Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Niiai wrote: Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Maleseptor + T8 sounds great.
I'm stacking double Acid Spray Fex, Exocrine, Hierodule, and 2 Carnifexes, with Malanthrope and Maleceptor support. It does not go down easy. Smart use of Dermic Symbiosis, Prepared positions for army wide 2+ if you go second, Catalyst if you got first turn. It's a ball of pain when it hits. Tyrannofexes are that unit that I didn't know if I ever wanted to use it based on it's datasheet - until I started using it. Pull their weight every single game, and cover so many bases. Acid Spray ones are mandatory Kraken + AG though, they want to be in position ASAP. But that's Nidzilla in general imo.
This might be the wrong time, with a new edition looming, but I’ve got a little bit of my tax return earmarked for new projects and was thinking of getting a small force of Nids to act as a foil for my Ultras. The problem is that they are a lot different from my other armies, so it’s hard to get a gauge on how to set things up. Like how much ranged AV do you need, or how much can be done in CC. This is not intended for competitive play, just something that can hold its own at the FLGS.
A few things: I’m not a fan of a lot of the Big Bug kits. Exception is the Trygon. I do like a lot of the mid range stuff like carnefexes, tyrants, Zoes. And the little bugs I’d like to build a TAC list that feels like a “classic” swarm. Lots of little gribblies, with a few big guys backing them up. I like the look of the serpentine nids (hence the Trygon, raveners) Edit: Forgot to add: No Finecast, or FW.
So here is a rough draft. It’s a little lighter on small guys than I like. It’s tempting just to click buttons in battlescribe, but knowing that each click is another box and a dozen guys on the paint bench might have stayed my hand. But if I need another 2 dozen gaunts, I’ll manage. Also slightly shaped by the fact I’ve got a few things kicking around (like 3 metal biovores, some gargs, and genestealers plus other random stuff) and the SC box looked like a good start, so I included all it’s units.
You want more high powered shots at 1500 point. 6 hiveguards at least. Preferably one other thing as well (exoshrine being the usual suspect.)
10 gargoyles will do little besides grab objective, but that is fine.
Trygons are not that good. They die very easalybfor their points.
Screamer killers are better build as regular carnifexes. Nobody knows why they are taxed so high.
The ravwners and warrior squads will not do.much, but they are fone for tveir relative low cost.
Not that 9th edition mentions tanks can now shoot in melee, anf max number of shots vs hordes. What is a horde? Is it 10 models in a unit? In that case a lot of nid strategy will change. Gsc as well. Anyway, it will br easier to shoot down genestealer units. Exspect to see a rise in mortars, battle cannons, missile launchers and a decrease in big infantery units (stealers?) If the limit is 10 models warriors will finaly shine!
Niiai wrote: Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Maleseptor + T8 sounds great.
I'm stacking double Acid Spray Fex, Exocrine, Hierodule, and 2 Carnifexes, with Malanthrope and Maleceptor support. It does not go down easy. Smart use of Dermic Symbiosis, Prepared positions for army wide 2+ if you go second, Catalyst if you got first turn. It's a ball of pain when it hits. Tyrannofexes are that unit that I didn't know if I ever wanted to use it based on it's datasheet - until I started using it. Pull their weight every single game, and cover so many bases. Acid Spray ones are mandatory Kraken + AG though, they want to be in position ASAP. But that's Nidzilla in general imo.
As you know I'm all in with the nidzilla, but I gotta say it has a very low ceiling. Nids player usually play 80+ models and having 5 big dudes backed by only 40 bodies requires really to know what are you doing, I'm not surprised a lot of people dismiss the list. Deployment and knowing your secondaries are a must in order to be really treathening . Still the list is fun as hell to play.
One question though, does weapon beast works in overwatch too?
You want more high powered shots at 1500 point. 6 hiveguards at least. Preferably one other thing as well (exoshrine being the usual suspect.)
10 gargoyles will do little besides grab objective, but that is fine.
Trygons are not that good. They die very easalybfor their points.
Screamer killers are better build as regular carnifexes. Nobody knows why they are taxed so high.
The ravwners and warrior squads will not do.much, but they are fone for tveir relative low cost.
Not that 9th edition mentions tanks can now shoot in melee, anf max number of shots vs hordes. What is a horde? Is it 10 models in a unit? In that case a lot of nid strategy will change. Gsc as well. Anyway, it will br easier to shoot down genestealer units. Exspect to see a rise in mortars, battle cannons, missile launchers and a decrease in big infantery units (stealers?) If the limit is 10 models warriors will finaly shine!
Thanks for the feedback.
I love the look of the Trygon model. And it’s in the SC box, so the odds of me getting one are high. What’s the best way to build use it? Are Mawlocks better (they stuck me as expensive for a way to do some MWs on even turns)? I chose the prime for this list as the synapse seemed a good thing and I thought some fun could be had DS’in a troop up close. Would devourer temigants be better for that? Sort of like a guardian bomb for Eldar. My main concern with that is having to be within 3” of the Trygon and more then 9” from the enemy.
I was hoping to avoid the Exocrine. It does look like it would do a real good job of blowing things up. It might be fine sitting in a corner surrounded by some little buddy biovores. Similar look. I’ll have to see how he grows on me.
Why are there so many different flavors of carnefexes? You have the build-your-own entry, and then a whole bunch of bespoke ones? I went with the screamer killer mostly out of nostalgia, and it did what I think I needed more of in my list (run forward and kill big things) As there are 2 in a box, I went with Old One Eye, as he looked like he did the same, but better.
The Warriors I kept small with long range to keep back and provide synapse for the guard/biovores. And a little backfield support.
The Raveners I kept small because I liked the way they look, but didn’t think they would work very well. So mostly as a fluffy harassment/screening unit. Gargoyles the same. If I can get actual use out of them but going 2-3x the unit size, I’d consider it. As a marine player, I tend to think in MSU, which might not be the best way to approach ’nids.
From a theme POV, I like the concept of having multiple stages of evolution of the same line Gaunts - warriors - tyrant. Raveners - trygon. Makes a more cohesive looking army IMHO. Not that I’m opposed to the oddball unit.
My main opponent is going to be my son’s Salamanders. He’s still growing his army (and borrowing chunks of mine) but I’m not looking to have to face multiple knight lists, or Iron Hand parking lots. Just a LR, Pred, a couple of rhinos, maybe a dread. And that’s a mech heavy list for him.
9th is going to be some changes. The changes in detachments might be big. Looking at this list, I wanted more HQs, but decided to just stick to one simple battalion. If I have to pay CP to branch out, that could be bad. Where they draw the line of hordes and what it does is going to be interesting. If it’s max hits on variable weapons for units over a certain size, that could be nasty. But greater then 10, or 20? Honestly I’m more worried about a well issued bolter drill mowing down my units than flamers and frags.
Honestly I’m still pushing ideas around on this, so 9th will probably drop before I pull the trigger. Just looking to help define the shape of the army at this point. How much of what aspects is needed for a balanced list. And what sort of units work to get them.
You want more high powered shots at 1500 point. 6 hiveguards at least. Preferably one other thing as well (exoshrine being the usual suspect.)
10 gargoyles will do little besides grab objective, but that is fine.
Trygons are not that good. They die very easalybfor their points.
Screamer killers are better build as regular carnifexes. Nobody knows why they are taxed so high.
The ravwners and warrior squads will not do.much, but they are fone for tveir relative low cost.
Not that 9th edition mentions tanks can now shoot in melee, anf max number of shots vs hordes. What is a horde? Is it 10 models in a unit? In that case a lot of nid strategy will change. Gsc as well. Anyway, it will br easier to shoot down genestealer units. Exspect to see a rise in mortars, battle cannons, missile launchers and a decrease in big infantery units (stealers?) If the limit is 10 models warriors will finaly shine!
Thanks for the feedback.
I love the look of the Trygon model. And it’s in the SC box, so the odds of me getting one are high. What’s the best way to build use it? Are Mawlocks better (they stuck me as expensive for a way to do some MWs on even turns)? I chose the prime for this list as the synapse seemed a good thing and I thought some fun could be had DS’in a troop up close. Would devourer temigants be better for that? Sort of like a guardian bomb for Eldar. My main concern with that is having to be within 3” of the Trygon and more then 9” from the enemy.
I was hoping to avoid the Exocrine. It does look like it would do a real good job of blowing things up. It might be fine sitting in a corner surrounded by some little buddy biovores. Similar look. I’ll have to see how he grows on me.
Why are there so many different flavors of carnefexes? You have the build-your-own entry, and then a whole bunch of bespoke ones? I went with the screamer killer mostly out of nostalgia, and it did what I think I needed more of in my list (run forward and kill big things) As there are 2 in a box, I went with Old One Eye, as he looked like he did the same, but better.
The Warriors I kept small with long range to keep back and provide synapse for the guard/biovores. And a little backfield support.
The Raveners I kept small because I liked the way they look, but didn’t think they would work very well. So mostly as a fluffy harassment/screening unit. Gargoyles the same. If I can get actual use out of them but going 2-3x the unit size, I’d consider it. As a marine player, I tend to think in MSU, which might not be the best way to approach ’nids.
From a theme POV, I like the concept of having multiple stages of evolution of the same line Gaunts - warriors - tyrant. Raveners - trygon. Makes a more cohesive looking army IMHO. Not that I’m opposed to the oddball unit.
My main opponent is going to be my son’s Salamanders. He’s still growing his army (and borrowing chunks of mine) but I’m not looking to have to face multiple knight lists, or Iron Hand parking lots. Just a LR, Pred, a couple of rhinos, maybe a dread. And that’s a mech heavy list for him.
9th is going to be some changes. The changes in detachments might be big. Looking at this list, I wanted more HQs, but decided to just stick to one simple battalion. If I have to pay CP to branch out, that could be bad. Where they draw the line of hordes and what it does is going to be interesting. If it’s max hits on variable weapons for units over a certain size, that could be nasty. But greater then 10, or 20? Honestly I’m more worried about a well issued bolter drill mowing down my units than flamers and frags.
Honestly I’m still pushing ideas around on this, so 9th will probably drop before I pull the trigger. Just looking to help define the shape of the army at this point. How much of what aspects is needed for a balanced list. And what sort of units work to get them.
Trygon die very easy for their cost. T6, some wounds and 3+ save is not very good. 8th edition is full of good ranged weapons. In 8th edition things die very fast. So without good ranged attacks you need to make it into melee. How do you do that? A behemot 8" charge from reserves can try it, but it is very risky.
Use the adaptive trait to make a trygon S8 makes it better. But it is fragile. Making it the prime gives it character so it will can take relics, but baskets and eggs. It does transport troops though, but what troopa do you wanne transport?
The mawlock got better with the stratagem from BoB. But high T 3+ save and no offense is not good in 8th edition. On top of thia powerfists will ruin these models day.
Both alternative carnifexes has ekatra rules that are bad you pay exstra for. They are there for nostalgia reasons, but the rules and price points missed the mark. Regular melee fex with plasma scream is better if you wanne build a screamer killer. A pitty for screamer killer is a clasic!
Exoshrine shoots very well. Use slimer stratagem to make it damage 3. Very good.
Nids are so specialised just taking a bit of everything does not work so well currently.
If you are fighting your sons salamanders do not mind my advice. Keep it cassual and funn.
As for evolution of models all nids have 6 limbs, tail and head. And then they have just modefied those looks to the ekstreme. The models look great. For the love of good keep the paint scheme as simple and fast to execute as possible.
Just because I’m planning on playing casual doesn’t mean I don’t want to know how to make a tight and effective list. I can just dial it back and dilute it until I get to point where it is a fair match for the games I play. Thanks again for the feedback.
I would not have even contemplated starting a Nid army before contrast paints. I generally work at a 1 mini-a-week pace. So for a fluffy list, it would take me years to get something fieldable even for low point games.
Niiai wrote: Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Maleseptor + T8 sounds great.
I'm stacking double Acid Spray Fex, Exocrine, Hierodule, and 2 Carnifexes, with Malanthrope and Maleceptor support. It does not go down easy. Smart use of Dermic Symbiosis, Prepared positions for army wide 2+ if you go second, Catalyst if you got first turn. It's a ball of pain when it hits. Tyrannofexes are that unit that I didn't know if I ever wanted to use it based on it's datasheet - until I started using it. Pull their weight every single game, and cover so many bases. Acid Spray ones are mandatory Kraken + AG though, they want to be in position ASAP. But that's Nidzilla in general imo.
As you know I'm all in with the nidzilla, but I gotta say it has a very low ceiling. Nids player usually play 80+ models and having 5 big dudes backed by only 40 bodies requires really to know what are you doing, I'm not surprised a lot of people dismiss the list. Deployment and knowing your secondaries are a must in order to be really treathening . Still the list is fun as hell to play.
One question though, does weapon beast works in overwatch too?
Yeah you said it, you gotta be smart with your in-game decisions, and using the infantry support wisely is key. No overwatch with weapon beast unfortunately.
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Niiai wrote: For the love of good keep the paint scheme as simple and fast to execute as possible.
Quoting for emphasis! Best thing I did was find a quick and easy color scheme. They are biological, you can get away with a lot of drybrushing etc and still look perfectly up to standard (whereas other armies may not get away with it so easily). If you want to get fancy pick up some Genestealer allies, there's tons of details on all their models. There's a ton of surface area on Tyranids whether you are playing hordes or monsters, so keep it simple imo or you'll never finish!
Niiai wrote: Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Maleseptor + T8 sounds great.
I'm stacking double Acid Spray Fex, Exocrine, Hierodule, and 2 Carnifexes, with Malanthrope and Maleceptor support. It does not go down easy. Smart use of Dermic Symbiosis, Prepared positions for army wide 2+ if you go second, Catalyst if you got first turn. It's a ball of pain when it hits. Tyrannofexes are that unit that I didn't know if I ever wanted to use it based on it's datasheet - until I started using it. Pull their weight every single game, and cover so many bases. Acid Spray ones are mandatory Kraken + AG though, they want to be in position ASAP. But that's Nidzilla in general imo.
I really like what you are trying to do here. Any viability in your opinion in swapping out the Hierodule for Trygons? I don't have a Hierodule....
Nevelon wrote: This might be the wrong time, with a new edition looming, but I’ve got a little bit of my tax return earmarked for new projects and was thinking of getting a small force of Nids to act as a foil for my Ultras. The problem is that they are a lot different from my other armies, so it’s hard to get a gauge on how to set things up. Like how much ranged AV do you need, or how much can be done in CC. This is not intended for competitive play, just something that can hold its own at the FLGS.
A few things:
I’m not a fan of a lot of the Big Bug kits. Exception is the Trygon. I do like a lot of the mid range stuff like carnefexes, tyrants, Zoes. And the little bugs
I’d like to build a TAC list that feels like a “classic” swarm. Lots of little gribblies, with a few big guys backing them up.
I like the look of the serpentine nids (hence the Trygon, raveners)
Edit: Forgot to add: No Finecast, or FW.
So here is a rough draft. It’s a little lighter on small guys than I like. It’s tempting just to click buttons in battlescribe, but knowing that each click is another box and a dozen guys on the paint bench might have stayed my hand. But if I need another 2 dozen gaunts, I’ll manage. Also slightly shaped by the fact I’ve got a few things kicking around (like 3 metal biovores, some gargs, and genestealers plus other random stuff) and the SC box looked like a good start, so I included all it’s units.
Haven’t given much thought to traits/relics/adaptations/etc.
Thoughts/advice?
Well, if you like the snakey Nids I'd suggest Jopmangandr so you can tunnel in units. Jorm also likes shooty Carnifexen. If you want CC anti vehicle I currently like Acid maws. But with a new edition right around the corner, there is no knowing what will be good/better. A decnt amount of geibblies is almost always worth having in a Nid army, so it is unlikely you'll regret painting them. Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind!
Niiai wrote: Depending on the nid lists alpha strike potensial and the opposing heavy weapons T8 can be really good.
How many armies can and do fill up on lascannons these days after knights do do not dominate the meta? IG and SM might have lascannons. GSC ridge runners. With dark reapers being good few eldars run fire prisemns. Dark eldar lanses stops at 8 exceptbon flyer. (Poisen is stil +4 though.) As some one who regurerly play orks I can say you do not wanne be hurting T8 on 5+.
Maleseptor + T8 sounds great.
I'm stacking double Acid Spray Fex, Exocrine, Hierodule, and 2 Carnifexes, with Malanthrope and Maleceptor support. It does not go down easy. Smart use of Dermic Symbiosis, Prepared positions for army wide 2+ if you go second, Catalyst if you got first turn. It's a ball of pain when it hits. Tyrannofexes are that unit that I didn't know if I ever wanted to use it based on it's datasheet - until I started using it. Pull their weight every single game, and cover so many bases. Acid Spray ones are mandatory Kraken + AG though, they want to be in position ASAP. But that's Nidzilla in general imo.
I really like what you are trying to do here. Any viability in your opinion in swapping out the Hierodule for Trygons? I don't have a Hierodule....
There's tons of viability in swapping out the Hierodule, I'm not sure if Trygon is the ideal placement. I view a good part of it's cost in the ability effectively drop pod a full unit of troops as it comes in, and that has no real play in Nidzilla. On the flip side, a couple of Mawlocs are a similar model that are probably even better. Coming down on alternating turns with their new strat and either drawing fire with their cheap wounds, or threatening a charge if they don't reposition, has a lot of hidden value.
TBH if I wasn't running Hierodule, I would probably pick a Toxicrene (who are stupidly underrated) back up, and a Swarmlord over one of my Neurothropes. That leaves points to either grab a Mawloc, double down on the Toxicrene approach which can win games later on, or maybe even find points for another Exocrine somewhere (or a Trygon if you so insisted, it's not terrible for sure especially with Monstrous Size). Dropping another Neurothrope for an One Eye is a great choice there as well actually now that the role isn't covered by the Hierodule.
A Smite/Psychic Scream, Voracious Ammo, Kraken Camo relic dakka Flyrant would also be a nice choice, for -2 to hit, -1 to strength, 4++ mobile threat that pings off 3D3 mortal wounds a turn, every turn, for likely a lot of turns, ON TOP OF his regular 3+ BS dakka.
Nidzilla has some cool options, I enjoy the finesse of the Hierodule and get a lot of out of him, but he's not mandatory at all.
addnid wrote: A whole edition without a single nid model relase then... I have a large army of gen cult, but they are NOT nids.
Anyone know how that was possible ? Any other army got that silent treatment from GW ?
Honestly Tryanids are in a pretty good spot. There's a few outliers like pyro/biovoires that are so certain to get a duel kit its surprising its not happened (very surprised doing PA that we didn't get one). But overall Tyranids have a pretty modern (or stands up well in modern) army.
This is not tactics this is speculations, so it should not really be here.
Some models can et updated models. They are good but old. (Carnifex & Stealers. Others.)
Some could get plastic models (lictor, deathleaper, biovore, pyrovore.)
Unit roles we do not have:
Mobile trasport.
Sniper. (Would be nice with a lictor/sniper/deathleaper kit.)
Terain.
Flyer with flying rules instead of clumpy monsters with wings like we do now.
We alreayd have so much redudancy, many different odd melee monsters. I would prefer good rules for the once we have.
Isn't the sniper Hiveguard and isn't the transport the tervigon (which transports only gaunts) along with the Tyrannofex. A terrain feature could happen - some nice spores and capillary towers.
Overread wrote: Isn't the sniper Hiveguard and isn't the transport the tervigon (which transports only gaunts) along with the Tyrannofex. A terrain feature could happen - some nice spores and capillary towers.
addnid wrote: A whole edition without a single nid model relase then... I have a large army of gen cult, but they are NOT nids.
Anyone know how that was possible ? Any other army got that silent treatment from GW ?
Honestly Tryanids are in a pretty good spot. There's a few outliers like pyro/biovoires that are so certain to get a duel kit its surprising its not happened (very surprised doing PA that we didn't get one). But overall Tyranids have a pretty modern (or stands up well in modern) army.
Yeah, we've got a pretty diverse range and it's almost all in plastic.
I'd really like them to figure how to make Tyranids decent again It feels like every since the 4th edition Dex they have struggled to balance the book both internally and externally. It feels like we had that one time when triple flyrants were good, but that's about been the highlight.
Tyran wrote: 8th is arguably the best internally balanced. Even the 4th ed codex had internal issues (Carnifexes were great, everything else not so much).
IIRC 4th edition was when all the Carnifexes got nerfed, and we were running Hiveguard and Proxied Tervigons. Or was this 5th edition?
EDIT: Yeah, that was 5th edition. 4th was the era of Carnifexes.
I haven't played as much 8th, but the dex didn't feel very internally balanced either. A lot of the big monsters like the Maleceptor and Haruspex don't seem great.
Tyran wrote: It is more a testament on how poorly balanced were the previous codexes.
Most definitely is. On roles to play on the batttlefield, 8th Ed terrain rules as well as the need for a lot of terrain to block LOS has made non flying MCs absolute garbage, even with good cc potential (which our MCs severely lacked anyway).
I d say that 8th was an edition where ground CCMCs were virtually non existent in competitive play. Let’s hope 9th changes that (I am confident it will, perhaps not for our big bugs though...)
Tyran wrote: It is more a testament on how poorly balanced were the previous codexes.
Most definitely is. On roles to play on the batttlefield, 8th Ed terrain rules as well as the need for a lot of terrain to block LOS has made non flying MCs absolute garbage, even with good cc potential (which our MCs severely lacked anyway).
I d say that 8th was an edition where ground CCMCs were virtually non existent in competitive play. Let’s hope 9th changes that (I am confident it will, perhaps not for our big bugs though...)
I'm hoping so. My Crons look like they are going to get a lot play, and I would hate for such a huge amount of my Nid collection to just sit on the shelves.
The only part of the codex where GW really screwed up is the internal balance between hive fleet adaptations and hive fleet specific goodies. The rest is fine.
The Leviathan adaptation isn't horrible and I appreciate that it works in nearly every list, but it slows the game down and pushes me to group up for something other factions get unconditionally.
The relic is a miserable joke, the stratagem sees a use once in a blue moon for a miniscule benefit and the BoB Levi spell is probably even worse than Slayer Sabres, if that's even possible.
The warlord trait used to be good, when I was still taking warlord traits...
And Leviathan isn't even the worst adaptation in the book.
I just want a Biovore model that doesn't suck. We've never had one, and I'd love one in plastic. Make it a double kit with the Pyrovore.
Tyran wrote: 8th is arguably the best internally balanced. Even the 4th ed codex had internal issues (Carnifexes were great, everything else not so much).
4th Ed was the era of Nidzilla. GW had a new Carnifex kit to sell, so obviously the rules were geared to sell that kit. Then again, it was an improvement on 3rd, where to make 'Nids viable (outside of the broken Seeding Swarm list), you basically had to take a custom fleet and have as few species as possible so that you could have as many Rending Claw mutant Gaunts units as possible.
Overread wrote: Isn't the sniper Hiveguard and isn't the transport the tervigon (which transports only gaunts) along with the Tyrannofex.
What on earth are you talking about.... none of those units are transports nor snipers.... the only transport in the dex is the Tyrannocyte or technically the Trygon for deepstriking troops...
I don't think we need a sniper. That is not the way of the swarm. Improvements to our already dedicated assassin units would be nice though.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just want a Biovore model that doesn't suck. We've never had one, and I'd love one in plastic. Make it a double kit with the Pyrovore.
Tyran wrote: 8th is arguably the best internally balanced. Even the 4th ed codex had internal issues (Carnifexes were great, everything else not so much).
4th Ed was the era of Nidzilla. GW had a new Carnifex kit to sell, so obviously the rules were geared to sell that kit. Then again, it was an improvement on 3rd, where to make 'Nids viable (outside of the broken Seeding Swarm list), you basically had to take a custom fleet and have as few species as possible so that you could have as many Rending Claw mutant Gaunts units as possible.
An earlier GW employee talked about designing new codexes on reddit once. To summarice, they where instructed to push new models. This is not shocking as it had been suspected a lott.
The model in discussion then was the giant eldar walker. With its stats it was priced very high in points. Their boss said nobody would buy the lot if it was that exspensive, and they had to reduce its point cost. And hence the model was very good on release. (I do not remember the name of the source.) In 4th edotion the carnifex was pushed. If it was under a certain cost it was an elite, over a certain cost it was heavy suport.
Having an blatant unbalanced game is no way to design a game. That is why GW where shocked when they kicked Kirby out of the company and started focusing on making a good game, like 8th edition was. Sales increased. Everyome where happy. I hope they continue this trend in 9th edition. I have faith.
(That breeing said I really wonder what nids unit they pushed in 5th and 6th edition because everything was really bad. )
Overread wrote: Isn't the sniper Hiveguard and isn't the transport the tervigon (which transports only gaunts) along with the Tyrannofex.
What on earth are you talking about.... none of those units are transports nor snipers.... the only transport in the dex is the Tyrannocyte or technically the Trygon for deepstriking troops...
I mixed up the Tyrannofex with the Tyrannocyte. Meanwhile the Tervigon is a tyranid take on a transport in that it births and releases termagaunts into the battlefield as opposed to loading specific troops. I agree its not the same as most transports, but it does generally fit the concept of a more heavily armoured unit moving forward and then releasing units further forward into the battlefield.
Going on right now talking about changes in 9th ed. Hop around if you are interested.
(btw Pete Holey is troll. LAst time and this time he has funny texts on background for fun jokes. Last time stuff like "plastic thunderhawk". Now "10th ed: no dices" Wonder how long it takes for faeith to bring that as "reliabe source told us" rumour ;-)
Everybody hits on 6´s
Capped modifiers
Capped CP (everybody has the same amount)
Veichles and monsters can fight second floors as Titatic
Monsters can shoot in CC as tanks
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also
Terrain block LOS (obscuring is gonna be a thing: terrain have a footprint)
Mininum terrain amount implemented.
NO alternate activation.
1 CP for having units in DS.
They can come from different from different table edges as the game progresses.
Overwatch is gonna change (helping CC armies)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goonhammer transcript:
What is capped CP? Does this mean CP generators do not excist? Does this mean batallions and formations are a thingbof the past? Because I have painted soooo many GSC troops.
Niiai wrote: What is capped CP? Does this mean CP generators do not excist? Does this mean batallions and formations are a thingbof the past? Because I have painted soooo many GSC troops.
You don't gain cp by taking dets. You pay instead. Is that just to unlock other codex or just each det costs cp(and is that flat or depends on det) is unknown.
You can still mix tyranids and gsc but it will cost cp. All start with same cp depending on game size from which you use it for det's etc.
Niiai wrote: Then what is the points of all my GSC?!
You mean why take them? For what they bring to you. If they were just for cp yeah useless. But can't you figure anything else? Those infiltraters etc should be usefull on it's own.
Giving everyone the same amount of CPs seems like a very blanket approach to fixing a more detailed problem.
tneva82 wrote: Groovy news for tyranids for 9th ed. The big monsters will be shooting out of combat same way as tanks will based on the twitch Q&A
Tell me when my bugs are tough enough to actually take incoming firepower and can't be targeted because the tip of a spine on the side of a wing is visible. Then I might care about being able to shoot my ultra-short-ranged guns in combat.
tneva82 wrote: Well guess what. Los and terrain rule is going to be changed. No more "i see tip of your wing from this tiny window so i shoot at you".
We don't know that. What we know is that some types of terrain won't be able to be seen through even if they have obvious windows (ie. the way area terrain used to work). That does not preclude the idea that the "you can see it/you can shoot it" crap that we have now.
tneva82 wrote: Did you even watch yesterday stream? Guess not
Then transcribe the part you're talking about. It's not up to me to prove something when you apparently know the answer. I read the summary that was made, and at no point does it cover the "see it/shoot it" crap that 8th Ed has.
tneva82 wrote: Did you even watch yesterday stream? Guess not
Then transcribe the part you're talking about. It's not up to me to prove something when you apparently know the answer. I read the summary that was made, and at no point does it cover the "see it/shoot it" crap that 8th Ed has.
If you know differnt, then SHOW ME.
Direct Quote:
"Terrain will block LOS "a lot more". No longer able to shoot through three windows and a postbox and clip the wing of a Carnifex."
Yes. He said Carnifex wing. Yes, twitch chat gave him hell for the mistake.
Jump-Fexes would be pretty lit. Fun way to clear GEQ screens, and charge/fallback out of surround/shoot/charge something else in Kraken would be wavy.
I’d say doubt we get a new Carnifex kit, but honestly they do have that weird hip joint and we got new Hive Guard kit when they didn’t need a new sculpt at all so who knows
Persoanlly I'd just like GW to release a base size chart for the game. Coming back to my Tyranids I've been trying to get it right and it seems that GW's own end doesn't get it right with some seeming to jump around depending on the product/release team behind it. Eg variations between different sets and killteam and main games not to mention differences between GSC and Tyranids.
I'd prefer that right now over new sculpts for Tyranids!
"Now they have wings…." would be a great meme to go along with the release of a winged Carnifex.
I always thought that we were missing mid-sized winged models (aka Shrikes), but I wasn't thinking big enough, a Carnifex could count as mid-sized these days.
Has anyone checked if the hive tyrant wings fits on the carnifex body? I would love to add plastic wings to make 16" move carnifexes. Upgrade spruces incomming. :-)
We technically already have a winged Carnifex of sorts in the form of the Hive Crone (double talon + bone mace) and Harpy (scything talon + heavy bio cannons + spine banks + 4th edition spore cysts). Admittedly their rules aren't as good as those of a Carnifex right now, but as far as purpose and stats go they are similar enough.
Just as a random thought, but does anyone know what the maximum leadership penalty we can inflict? It occurred to me that we actually have a LOT of things that penalize leadership and if moral does become more important in the upcoming edition it might behoove us to consider what sort of shenanigans we have access to.
Off the top of my head:
- Screamer Killers (-1)
- Haruspex/Rippers (-1 via stratagem)
- Custom Hive Fleet (-1)
- Abhorrent pheromones (-1)
- The Horror (-1)
- GSC Locus (-1)
I think Deathleaper might have had a debuff as well but I don't have my codex handy...
Strat_N8 wrote: Just as a random thought, but does anyone know what the maximum leadership penalty we can inflict? It occurred to me that we actually have a LOT of things that penalize leadership and if moral does become more important in the upcoming edition it might behoove us to consider what sort of shenanigans we have access to.
Off the top of my head:
- Screamer Killers (-1)
- Haruspex/Rippers (-1 via stratagem)
- Custom Hive Fleet (-1)
- Abhorrent pheromones (-1)
- The Horror (-1)
- GSC Locus (-1)
I think Deathleaper might have had a debuff as well but I don't have my codex handy...
I was goofing around you tube, and I saw a video with a spoiler. Overwatch will be a CP. That helps make Tyranids a force again. If this is true, then Stealers become the horror they are meant to be.
Stealers will be fine, but the more i look over it, the more im convinced i should just start taking 3 squads of Mieotic spores instead of 2 genestealer squads.
Stealers are 480 for 2 squads and susceptible to max blast hits, plus they dont really damage vehicles well.
The spores are also around 480 for 3 squads of 9, have scout deploy, and hurt everything equally.
If you have first turn, the spores will usually do way more damage and if you go second they will not only slow your opponent board presence greatly but make sure he doesnt shoot anything else of your army as they have to die.
Will they last for more than 2 turns? no, but my stealers rarely did either.
Meiotic Spores are subject to revision when the new Forge World indices release later this year. I wouldn't base any strategies around their current rules; but I do agree that the Overwatch change helps all flavors of spore mine greatly.
I intend to use my Biovores more. Missed spore mines just became a lot more useful, since they need to be targeted individually and will thus tend to absorb overkill, and can no longer be ignored to let Overwatch do the work.
Eihnlazer wrote: Stealers will be fine, but the more i look over it, the more im convinced i should just start taking 3 squads of Mieotic spores instead of 2 genestealer squads.
Stealers are 480 for 2 squads and susceptible to max blast hits, plus they dont really damage vehicles well.
The spores are also around 480 for 3 squads of 9, have scout deploy, and hurt everything equally.
If you have first turn, the spores will usually do way more damage and if you go second they will not only slow your opponent board presence greatly but make sure he doesnt shoot anything else of your army as they have to die.
Will they last for more than 2 turns? no, but my stealers rarely did either.
Logic seems sounds. Interested in seeing how it goes.
It might be that the answer is neither Genestealers nor Spores at this point, and just taking 500 pts of good units.
Assuming units arriving from Strategic Reserves count as reinforcements, it looks like Pheromone Trail will actually be relevant again. Spend some CP to put a unit of Genestealers into reserve, DS a Lictor in turn 2, pop Pheromone Trail to deploy the arriving-as-reinforcements Genestealers with the Lictor instead of on a table edge.
catbarf wrote: Assuming units arriving from Strategic Reserves count as reinforcements, it looks like Pheromone Trail will actually be relevant again. Spend some CP to put a unit of Genestealers into reserve, DS a Lictor in turn 2, pop Pheromone Trail to deploy the arriving-as-reinforcements Genestealers with the Lictor instead of on a table edge.
The only restriction is the keyword <Infantry>, and so to me Genestealers feel like a waste. You don't think dropping a Lictor into some Obscuring terrain and the Hive Guard behind that terrain would be a better use? Or Pyrovores, who have 10" range flamers?
2x FHT/w brainleech and MRC. One with kraken relic, one with resonance barb. Both took voracious ammunition, and adrenals.
3x ripper swarms with one extra base
3 squads of meiotic spores 9 strong
Battalion-kronos
3x nuerothrope
3x ripper swarms 6 strong
3x biovore squads, 3 strong
Fortification network-kronos
3x sporocysts/w deathspitters
He was running the cept with +6" range to rapid fire weaponry.
He had a fireblade with 3 firewarrior squads and the missle tower, a squad of pathfinders, a stealth suit squad, a Riptide, a Y"varna suit, a stormsurge, 2 broadsides, a squad of crisis suits, and a coldstar commander with a few drones.
We played in a ruined city table with multiple ruins all across the table. Dawn of war deployment and I got first turn.
Kraken Mietoic spores are downright broken if you get the first turn. I dont see how they have gone this long without changing the wording on their explosion cause atm they are too strong. Granted nobody in their right mind would actually buy 27 of them from forgeworld since they are like 13 bucks apiece but still.
The fact that they have no actual range limitation on their damage is the scary part. I just have to get them within 3" of any of my opponents units and they will do anywhere from 0-54 mortal wounds (average of 19.5) no matter how far anything is from that first unit is just nuts.
Anywho, i managed to get 2 units up into my opponent on the first turn due to double kraken advance on one unit and metabolic overdrive on a second unit. Wiped out the stealth squad, 2 squads of firewarriors, and all the shield drones near his broadsides and the stormsurge.
He struck back by putting 9 wounds on one of my sporocysts, killing a full 6 man ripper squad and popping all of the regular spore mines I had spawned with my sporocysts and biovores.
Turn 2 i dropped in my hive tyrants near his riptide and sent the 6 remaining meiotic spores in to take out his crisis suits and last firewarrior squad. I managed to charge the riptide with one of my tyrants but only did 4 wounds or so.
He once again killed all my spawned mines with missles and then focused everything on my WL hive tyrant, bringing him down to 1 wound. I actually made a ton of saves so he should have been dead though.
Turn 3 sees me kill his coldstar commander who had flown up to kill my WL and do some damage to his broadside unit, killing one of them and wounding the second. I also got a few more wounds off the riptide with psychic scream.
He finished off my WL on his turn and dropped his Rvanna in my backfield, killing 2 of my neurothropes with those nasty flamers and then charging into one squad of my biovores to shut them down. Unfortunately for him he hadnt killed all my spore mines since he was running out of shooting.
Turn 4 i manage to get 6 spore mines into his Rvanna and smite it with my remaining neuro to kill it. I also get the last 3 wounds off his remaining broadside and get his riptide down to 1 wound.
He gave up at this point as a 1 wound riptide and stormsurge cant really score any points and i was up on maelstrom.
catbarf wrote: Assuming units arriving from Strategic Reserves count as reinforcements, it looks like Pheromone Trail will actually be relevant again. Spend some CP to put a unit of Genestealers into reserve, DS a Lictor in turn 2, pop Pheromone Trail to deploy the arriving-as-reinforcements Genestealers with the Lictor instead of on a table edge.
The only restriction is the keyword <Infantry>, and so to me Genestealers feel like a waste. You don't think dropping a Lictor into some Obscuring terrain and the Hive Guard behind that terrain would be a better use? Or Pyrovores, who have 10" range flamers?
Sure, that sounds reasonable. I don't know if I'd do it with Hive Guard since they normally are able to shoot on the first turn, but a trio of Pyrovores might be useful with it. Tyrant Guard are also an option if they end up with a reasonable price in the new edition, or maybe a full brood of Zoanthropes to drop near an optimal Smite target.
A full brood of Devilgaunts might be the most boringly practical choice, but using a Trygon to deploy them instead would save a significant amount of CP.
Eihnlazer wrote: The fact that they have no actual range limitation on their damage is the scary part. I just have to get them within 3" of any of my opponents units and they will do anywhere from 0-54 mortal wounds (average of 19.5) no matter how far anything is from that first unit is just nuts.
Not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. Each model is tested on whether it explodes or not by being within 3" of an enemy unit (the rule says 'A Meiotic Spore explodes' which is by definition in the data sheet a model, not the unit). So any model not within 3" of an enemy won't explode, effectively making the range 3".
Moot anyways since these things are getting new rules when 9th drops.
Well the order of things is why they get away with it.
At the end of the charge phase, you check if they are within 3". If they are, they blow, all of em. After you check to see if they blow is when you start rolling to see what they do.
They dont only hit the unit they are within 3" of. The 3" range is just the proximety trigger to see if they detonate. The rule specifically says they then roll a D6 to see what they do, and the damage for each mine is dealt to the nearest enemy unit, wherever that is.
I do agree it might get reworked in the new edition of the FW though but atm thats how they work.
Eihnlazer wrote: Well the order of things is why they get away with it.
At the end of the charge phase, you check if they are within 3". If they are, they blow, all of em. After you check to see if they blow is when you start rolling to see what they do.
They dont only hit the unit they are within 3" of. The 3" range is just the proximety trigger to see if they detonate. The rule specifically says they then roll a D6 to see what they do, and the damage for each mine is dealt to the nearest enemy unit, wherever that is.
I do agree it might get reworked in the new edition of the FW though but atm thats how they work.
Thanks for the explanation. But oh my goodness is that ever a weird interaction lol
Kraken Mietoic spores are downright broken if you get the first turn. I dont see how they have gone this long without changing the wording on their explosion cause atm they are too strong.
[...]
Anywho, i managed to get 2 units up into my opponent on the first turn due to double kraken advance on one unit and metabolic overdrive on a second unit.
Part of the issue might be that you can't use krakens double advance stratagem on them. It doesn't work on units that have the FLY keyword.
Ahh, yeah thats a mistake on my part, but you can still easily get one unit of them into something by just double advancing them with metabolic overdrive.
And then the other two units are just dead in the water.
This was a tactic that was discussed years ago. The problem is that it ONLY works if you get first turn, so is wasted points like more than half the time. Then on the games it does work, it's highly telegraphed to anyone aware of and just involves screening to really neuter, which isn't hard when they have their full army to work with.
I dunno bout it. Might be better with less models on the board in 9th
Ok, let's do a quick summary of 9th changes and what they mean for us:
- New morale rules... ok we never cared about morale and we are not going to care about it now.
- Aircrafts:... What, aircrafts?
- Blast rules: Ouch, those really hurt. We like big blobs of hormagaunts and genestealers. We also like 9 bug units of warriors. We are clearly going to suffer this, and we don't have many blast weapons on our own to exploit this. Our drop pod could have become a seriously good chaff clearer though.
- Cut them out stratagem: Useless. Only counts models within 1", so you can't even make use of our numbers.
- Get out of tripoint stratagem: Hurts, but we can live with it. Against a good opponent tripointing wasn't going to happen in any case.
- Overwatch rules: Big win for us! We can now MSU much more without fearing harsh repercussions. Lictors and rippers become much more dangerous. Now we can charge whatever we want! Oh wait...
- New multicharge rules:... yeah, should be expected with new overwatch. This one is probably the one which will hurt more.
- Fly nerf: A net win for us. Yeah, the flyrants don't like it, but our opponents like it much much less.
- New terrain rules: More -1 to hit and more LoS blocking is something that we can exploit much better than our opponents.
- Cap on modifiers: Sorry for Deathleaper and the OOE ball, but all in all we win on this point. We almost never stack modifiers past the -1.
- Strategic reserves: Really really good for our playstyle. This opens a lot more options. Shock guards in outlfank? 3x3 zoans in outflank? Between this and the huge number of deepstrikers we have, we can dictate the flow of the game. We have yet to see if there is still a rule saying that half the army must start on the table.
- Limit on detachments: I always played mono fleet, but I know that I was in the minority. How will the Hyve comply with this? Are we going to sacrifice CP? Single battalion? I don't think that I can fit an army into a battalion, so depending on point changes I may go for a brigade.
Malanthrope will mostly be useless now as you can take a squad of venomthropes and hide them behind obscuring terrain.
Kraken flyrants will still be fine, but only other fleets that will use them will be kronos walkrants/w HVC and jormy swarmlords.
I actually expect Hive tyrants to go down in points a bit on average since wings should drop back down to 20ish points.
Lictors should definately see a resurgence. Dakkafex will be great. Tyranocytes will mostly take barbed stranglers.
I actually expect basic spore mines to change into blast weapons with the poisoned 4+ rule like they used to be in the past, which will make them pretty decent againgst hoards. They might even get a point reduction too since they wont be mortal wounds anymore. Granted this would nerf biovores pretty hard but should drop their points cost as well.
Strategic reserves will be a bigger boon to nid survival and will make your opponent hold stuff back to potentially countercharge your reserved models. I would definately hold a 20 strong genestealer squad (not even nessecary to take kraken ones) in reserve for example.
Change to the malanthrope's utility will shift a lot of lists. IMO in 8th they were one of the better HQ choices.
I am not sure about Dakkafex being so great....relative to other factions there are a lot of big shooty elite units that outclass them.
Reserve changes are indeed great, emphasize tyranid need to control the board for victory over smashing the enemy to pieces.
Until we know the full details of 9th's impact on horde....i am up on the air about the tervigon...was hoping its ability to spawn chaff would become useful as i love the fluff of it, but often a lacklustre gimmick.
-Morale changes. Synpase doesn't cover the board so still some scenarios. Recon/linebreaker rippers benefit I think less likely to lose the unit (napkin math on 3 man unit...8ed, 1 casualty, 1/3 chance to lose the unit, 9ed 1 casualty, 1/6 chance to lose the unit). Hurts sling shot stealers a bit, lose small amount could spike a bunch of 1s and be much more crippled. Also still some details with how negative morale mods affect combat attrition rolls, if they do horror could be a bit more useful then now (thin I know but still)
Tripoint: is what it is, been hints that the strat is only tip of iceburg and staying locked in combat is a thing of the past. We have tools though, overrun into saftey, etc.
Blast rules: Not going to get spun up on it until we see points for the blast indirect weapons. Also meta will have an impact here, people won't load up on wyverns in an MSU/elite favorable meta. We may be poised to be counter meta if that happens.
Detachments: todays reveal shows combat patrol is 2CP. I'd give up 2CP to keep my Kronos patrol I use now with kraken sling battalion. No question. Points increases though will be the bigger decider.
Malanthrope/Venomthrope: Less necessary but still valuable. Agree Venomthropes will probably be the goto.
Look out sir: Not as hard a hit for us as others but will still cause adjustments to how we play. I think broodlords stock goes down though.
Terrain: If you played ITC house rule using typical ruins...tbh we are worse off in ways. Where previously a hive guard would be out of LOS with great position, is now exposed unless it gives up significant range. Same issues with stealers, used to deny overwatch to Tau or hide with an overrun behind a wall, now much harder. Same time, we can more easily hide our monsters from alpha strike and seems like some other nice benefits so not all bad, just an adjustment if you were spoiled by the common house rule.
Reserves: Lictor phermone trail having a purpose? That alone is reason enough to be excited. Rest..well I am curious to see how many of the 8ed matched play reserve restrictions carry over. But in the end either way its huge, you can hide stuff for counter charge, hit board edges with models that previously had no option to do so. Very cool. Stock does down for models and fleets though with this.
Worth mentioning that bare minimum Pheromone Trail is effectively a 2 CP stratagem. Unless GW has a miraculous moment of self-awareness and realized that locking something like that behind 2+ CP is absurd and erratas it to a 0 CP strat, but even if they don't it's still a literally useless stratagem going to marginally useful.
You will always have units in strategic reserves with nids, you are not putting them there because you have a lictor.
We have too many and too big models to make efficient use of terrain. If we try to deploy the full army, we will have some of them dangling in the open and exposed to enemy fire.
You guys with the big lists are looking at all the minor gak and missing the important stuff.
#1 most important - no guarantee safety from tripoints. No, they aren't opponent dependant, and work at the highest level. This is the biggest change.
#2 units with fly can no longer fallback and shoot. The other big one. This a huge buff that makes up for the loss of tripointing safety, especially since to do that they have to spend CP, which appears to be a more limiting resource in 9th.
Armies that get to fallback and shoot will be naturally very powerful vs melee. But that's the point of them right?
Spoletta wrote: He generates 3 CP if he is the warlord. So if you bring him in an aux detachment, he pays for itself, but then you have to pay your main detachment.
Yesterday’s Knights article said today’s Chaos Knights one would touch on the warlord/detachment issue. We also haven’t seen the supreme command detachment.
There is a chance that LoW commanders might not be a major CP sink, even those who give you bonuses like Guiliman. (who takes the sting out with his +3 CP, but still leave you a net loss in your army)
It's just trying to re-create the old duel payment system we had in the past with the Force Organisation Chart which limited what you could take as well as the points you had to pay for models. Using CP is just another duel payment option to try and keep army building open and flexible whilst trying to restrict some min-max options from breaking balance.
Of course until we see the full picture its hard to judge
Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.
You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.
The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.
You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.
The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.
Disagree. Points do not equal CP.
But this is a tyranid thread. Leave that guard gak somewhere else, bub.
The FoC was a cost, not as a point cost, but as an opportunity cost. When slots were limited, you had to make (often) hard choices about what to fill them with.
8th flipped this around. When you ran out of slots, you could just spin them off into another detachment and be rewarded for it with extra CPs.
9th is going back to the FoC having some teeth again. It’s not the old hard cap, but if you want to move past a core detachment, you need to pay a moderate CP cost to do so.
Now I don’t know enough about the ‘Nid LoWs to know if they are worth it, even without coughing up the CPs to make space for them. But that’s a unit ballance issue, which hopefully can be fixed with points.
But I like the overall structual move, as it helps reduce spam and make more ballanced armies.
Agreed, the old FOC was a cost system. Heck I remember when Tyranids had a lot of "elite" style unit and the FOC only had very few elite slots. You were really having to make hard choices on what you took and it outright prevented certain types of unit spamming.
The FOC did need changing as the game had grown to include more models and also the diversity of armies had grown, the game had outgrown the old chart; though the core idea of a duel payment system of points and something else is a valid approach.
You can't just "fix" superheavies by making them more and more expensive in points to limit their potential number, because at the same time you'd have to make them more and more powerful to compensate for the higher cost - at which point you're in a self-feeding cycle. Plus the more you raise costs the more you push out other options and diversity in the army.
Fixing "OP" options doesn't always work best by just raising their points. Introducing a CP cost is one way to restrict taking excess super-heavies.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.
You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.
The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.
I mean technically you’re losing CP taking a super heavy already, that ~500 pts is probably another detachment right there that could give you up to 5.
But honestly this complaint is pointless. We haven’t seen the updated LoW costs, LoW are getting the biggest rewrites of any units for 9th, and also LoW are stronger in a smaller point size game which is effectively what 9th will be. Yeah it would stuff 8th Ed LoWs, but we won’t be playing with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All the changes so far actually have me excited for the possibility of updated superheavies possibly being viable again. I’d love to run a Shadowsword in Nidzilla but unfortunately triple soup might be a bit too expensive
H.B.M.C. wrote:Dual payment system? The FOC was never a "duel payment" system. It was system for limiting the amount of certain things you took.
You now have two currencies (essentially) in 8th, and now they're asking you to pay a lot of one currency just to pay even more of the other currency to bring something that frankly was't worth the points they were asking in the first place.
The idea that Guard players now have to pay for their superheavies is absurd. They already were.
I mean technically you’re losing CP taking a super heavy already, that ~500 pts is probably another detachment right there that could give you up to 5.
But honestly this complaint is pointless. We haven’t seen the updated LoW costs, LoW are getting the biggest rewrites of any units for 9th, and also LoW are stronger in a smaller point size game which is effectively what 9th will be. Yeah it would stuff 8th Ed LoWs, but we won’t be playing with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All the changes so far actually have me excited for the possibility of updated superheavies possibly being viable again. I’d love to run a Shadowsword in Nidzilla but unfortunately triple soup might be a bit too expensive
It Looks like "Nid-soup" might be doable. Take a Brood brothers cult, add a Star brothers command of Nids, and all is good. Cults no longer lose cult feats when adding in Astra-militaria, so not too hard, depending on points.
I saw that. Indeed my desires were answered today. Nids can effectively directly ally with AM now, with no need for triple detachments. A brood brothers Superheavy detachment is enough. Cool stuff! Hoping the Baneblade variants are costed well in 9th because these might be a fun addition to something already soaking the board in high toughness units.
Eihnlazer wrote: im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........
Like who ever said they were OP with them?
At least they're not costing detachment points any more.
But overall Nids are in for a very gloom edition under the current leaks. Melee is getting shafted left and right, hordes are getting fracked, stupid eradicators for 120 pts can down ANY monster we have without even breaking a sweat. Even mid size units of stealers are considered hordes for what the blast weapons are concerned.
Can't trap units any more, can't multicharge unless we roll godly, and even if we do, here comes Judicar to make us fight last just for fun.
Interessor sargeant still hits way harder than a Hive Tyrant.
Melee is gone, gaunt carpet is gone, We're left with shooty nidzilla and I will admit that Heavy Venom Cannons are pretty damn sweet with the blast rules and everything, but even then we are really outmatched in this kind of game.
Unless we get severe point drops in our units which I don't think will be the case, I think we're going to be pretty damn low in the food chain for another edition.
Eihnlazer wrote: im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........
Like who ever said they were OP with them?
At least they're not costing detachment points any more.
But overall Nids are in for a very gloom edition under the current leaks. Melee is getting shafted left and right, hordes are getting fracked, stupid eradicators for 120 pts can down ANY monster we have without even breaking a sweat. Even mid size units of stealers are considered hordes for what the blast weapons are concerned.
Can't trap units any more, can't multicharge unless we roll godly, and even if we do, here comes Judicar to make us fight last just for fun.
Interessor sargeant still hits way harder than a Hive Tyrant.
Melee is gone, gaunt carpet is gone, We're left with shooty nidzilla and I will admit that Heavy Venom Cannons are pretty damn sweet with the blast rules and everything, but even then we are really outmatched in this kind of game.
Unless we get severe point drops in our units which I don't think will be the case, I think we're going to be pretty damn low in the food chain for another edition.
Add to this the fact that thrope bubbles and psychic powers and negative hit penalties from heavy weapons etc don't stack, that also impacts big nids too.
Look you guys know I'm usually pretty optimistic, but I have to agree with this post. Everything so far looks pretty awful for us, other than smaller boards, and flyers cannot shoot after falling back, which does help vs Tau a little I guess.
catbarf wrote: Well, looks like Fall Back hasn't changed. I guess shooting is still going to be the way to go; maybe moreso, now that multi-charges are nerfed.
My current Tyranid build would hit the field with 8 CPs (3 + 5 Battalion + 1 Spearhead - 1 PA Adaptation). Under the new rules my current Tyranid army will hit the field with 8 CPs (12 - 3 Spearhead -1 PA Adaptation), only now I can never try out the 4 Tyrannofex build because "Rule of 3" is now actually a rule.
The more things change...
Eihnlazer wrote: im pretty disapointed that sporocysts loose hive fleet traits........
But they keep the Hive Fleet Keyword, right, otherwise their Psychic Resonator rule doesn't work.
And hey, now against horde units (as defined as units with more than 5 models, apparently, in 40K: Tournament Edition), we get lots of extra hits with our very, very overpriced (and likely going up) quintet of Barbed Stranglers.
Far as I can tell everyone who isn't a marine is planning for the end of times and the "worst edition ever" with necron players a bit more positive (though still depressed about reanimation protocols).
So basically if everyone is in the doldrums then it should even out between the factions. That and we are still seeing rules from only partial aspects (not everyone has read the major leak and not everyone has digested it yet of those who have).
Rule of 3 being a thing is a bit of a downside, but at the same time its a good thing in trying to restrict some spam lists from the game. You never know Tyranids might get some new ways to take more with some units. It might even be a bit more of a limit for tyranids than some others since things like warriors, tyrants, etc... can change their role so readily based on weapon loadout.
But our only true melee horde unit is the hormagant. Termagants and Gargoyles are our other 2 horde units and they are primarily ranged units
And before anyone mention them, with 12 ppm Genestealers were never a true horde unit. And while they were hurt by the changes they still can be an anti-meta unit as screening is likely to be less common.
But more importantly if you look at the codex 90% of our units are either multi-wound infantry or monsters. One was basically untouched by the changes aside of a minor nerf regarding blast weapons, they other received multiple buffs.
Of course the actually viability will be dictated by the point costs, but those are always fluctuating.
Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.
Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.
He addressed the switch to monsters.
A saving grace would be appropriate cost of monsters. If most of the game goes up in points but monsters stay the same (and Tervigon goes down), then I could see maybe being able to get a Critical mass of ,well, biomass to power through all the violence.
Termagant was possibly the most cost effective tarpit in the game. It's not primarily ranged at all, it's a very versatile unit and the best unit our dex has in 8th ed, and it's been nerfed to some extent going into 9th, the only real question is by how much.
He addressed the switch to monsters.
The termagant ability to tarpit stuff has little to do with their ability to wound stuff in melee. And now that fly cannot fall back and fire I would say they are slightly better at tarpitting.
But honestly being negative about it serves nothing and no one.
Zoanthropes at least got a mild boost, in that psykers can now cast Smite multiple times. So a unit of 6 can output 8-12 MW per turn if they successfully cast, with Catalyst or Onslaught in their pocket if the main caster for that dies.
We also don't have to worry about Overwatch nearly as much, and the new reserve deployment (esp with Pheromone Trail now actually working) gives us more ability to deliver units directly to short range.
I'm not feeling especially positive on the whole, but I see a few things we can maybe work with. I do think I'm going to have to just avoid playing against Primaris for a while, though.
I don't think it's even necessarily going to get FAQ'd. More likely it's just going to be in the matched play rules. Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition. I expect the rule of three and restrictions on casting smite multiple times with a single unit to both be included in that.
The real kick in the nuts for me is that I think it's all about inevitable that gaunts will go up in points. Like, cultists went from 4 to 6ppm, and they're worse then gaunts are after the nerfs (no access to chapter tactics, no morale immunity, basically the only thing they have going for them is VotLW). So if they couldn't escape nerfs I don't see how we will.
I think it's safe to assume that hordes are functionally dead and MSU is here to stay. With the change to blast weapons rippers have even more value, because blast punishes model count and ripper durability comes from wounds. For 55 points You're getting 15 wounds that blast weapons won't get any bonuses against.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't think it's even necessarily going to get FAQ'd. More likely it's just going to be in the matched play rules. Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition. I expect the rule of three and restrictions on casting smite multiple times with a single unit to both be included in that.
The real kick in the nuts for me is that I think it's all about inevitable that gaunts will go up in points. Like, cultists went from 4 to 6ppm, and they're worse then gaunts are after the nerfs (no access to chapter tactics, no morale immunity, basically the only thing they have going for them is VotLW). So if they couldn't escape nerfs I don't see how we will.
I think it's safe to assume that hordes are functionally dead and MSU is here to stay. With the change to blast weapons rippers have even more value, because blast punishes model count and ripper durability comes from wounds. For 55 points You're getting 15 wounds that blast weapons won't get any bonuses against.
Which is odd, as you think blast weapons would just murder swarms. Wasn’t that a rule at some point? Or am I mixing up game systems/editions again? Could have sworn swarms took 2x damage from blasts/templates.
Emicrania wrote: On the plus side flaming Tyrannofexes can flame and flame again in the fight phase. Right?
Not exactly. Its like the pistol rule, meaning if you are in engagement range in your shooting phase you can still fire your weapons (at the models in engagement range). NOT that you get to use them in the fight phase.
So opponents charge, then in your shooting phase you can flame them
I'm starting to think that brigade is going to be the way go, 30 termies, 30 hormies all in 10 man squads, 2 10 man stealer units For flanking or lictor delivery purposes, 2 or 3 3-5 man warrior squads as a base (although this obviously is very dependent on points).
How much this will leave for the bigger stuff is yet to be seen but i am determined to have a sea of little guys.
My stealers all have scy-tals so I'm honestly considering dropping kraken for a make your-own fleet using the ap on scy-tals thing and something else (dont have book yet so i'm unsure). Also, big fan of hormagaunts.
I got into Nids because I loved the look of a carpet of gaunts with MC's stalking amidst them and I am going to see if I can get it to work regardless. At least with msu gaunt units will get better at effectively using cover.
Acidspray t-fex almost certainly. Lictors looking actually quite useful.
Dare i say it? flanking pyrovores?!!! are we about to see them regularly?
I think melee for us will mostly be used to make enemies have to fall back of objectives rather than actively seeking to destroy everything in a steamroller of death and that we will have to play up to the ways of deploying that we now have to control our opponents options ( the more i think about it, this is kinda fluffy too)
People read too much into "can shoot while in combat".
Just like pistols last edition. Remember the last time someone actually shot pistols in combat? Yeah me neither.
If you charge them, it's after shooting so you need to wait engaged in combat for TWO hth rounds before you get to do your trick. If they charge you, you only need to wait 1 hth phase, but , they just charged you which means they mean to kill you dead.
I don't think anything in the Nid codex can take 2 rounds of hth and still be in shape to shoot next turn.
It's a neat little bonus means opponents can't invalidate your exocrine with 60 pts of bikers, but that's about it honestly.
Don't expect that Nidzilla will suddenly go bullet ninja or anything.
BlaxicanX wrote: Remember, the rules that are available now only show the core rules. Matched play is going to have its own set of additional rules just like 8th edition.
The whole rulebook has been leaked. I'm not sure what this "own set of additional rules" you are referring to is.
If you're talking about the Grand Tournament Mission Pack in the new Chapter Approved, that is exactly what it says on the tin: a mission pack for the GT.
Matched play is used at the GT, but matched play =/= tournaments.
Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:
How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.
Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.
My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?
Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.
I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.
I've always build my Termies with 1/3 Devourers, and the rest standard, if dropping a full unit next to a foe is a thing you plan on doing, then a full unit can get work done. Though that is likely a Jormangandr trick. With Lictors Possibly becoming useful again a reserved unit of "Devilgaunts" might just be a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Lictors can work again. I plan on seeing how a unit of Shock-guard can do vs all the mechanical gegays the imperium loves so much.
Nevelon wrote: Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:
How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.
Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.
My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?
Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.
I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.
Thoughts?
I like a 50/50 mix of devourers/fleshborers on big units. Plenty of firepower and ablative wounds before you have to get rid of devourer gaunts. If you are doing this, then a tervigon is a good investment as well as being synapse it can replenish the fleshborer gaunts keeping the devourers alive longer. As has been said however, with the new strategic reserve rules and the fact that Pheromone Trail strat is actually looking useful a unit or two of 10man devourers may be a good choice.
With rippers I find any less than 4 looks to empty, but more than 5 gets fiddly when painting so i tend to go 4 per base.
So just putting it out there - the change to blast weapons against unit of 6-10 changes your average number of hits from 3.5 to 4. This is not massive. I realise it is really painful rolling that 1 for number of shots, and this will not happen against 6-10, but overall, it's .5 of a shot increase. It is only 11+ where it really makes the difference
Nevelon wrote: Sat down today to clip and build my first box of termagants, have a few questions for the hive mind:
How many rippers do you put on a base? Obviously you want it to look like a swarm, but also it’s nice to be able to get a bonus base out of them. Each sprue in the box has one of the little biters, for a total of 7. I think going 3/4 out of one box for two bases would look thin. Wait until I pick up a second box and go 5/5/4 with them, with maybe a big rock or something to help take up space on the light base? This is the min unit size, so very tempting.
Spine fists on 1 A models - Any point? I don’t see the worth in swapping assault and a point of S for the pistol status, which is mostly useless.
My original thoughts was to mix devourers and fleshbores in the unit. Maybe at a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The devs is 3 times the firepower (and a little range) for twice the price. But the little guys are awfully fragile, so some ablative wounds seemed like a good idea. Are they SO fragile that even a few extra bodies are not worth it? Is it worth going full fleshbore for the strat? Having some guys with the extra range also seems like a good idea. I’ve had some experience with blobs of eldar guardians in webway bombs. 9” away from foes with a 12” gun is really tight, especially when there is terrain and other units in play. If planning to pop out of a hole in the ground, is it worth going all devs to make that one shot count?
Right now I have 6 old metal fleshbores. Building the box of 12 now, and have plans to pick up another dozen guys at some point before the swarm hits the table. So tentative plans for 30 guys, which could be one big swarm or broken up.
I know 9th is incoming, and there might be some point shifts, but wanted to bounce ideas around.
Thoughts?
I have my Rippers set up so that each unit of three bases has a different number of Rippers on it, in order to make it easy to tell the broods apart. I have three with three Rippers and some terrain bits, three with four Rippers, so on.
Spinefists only make sense on Raveners with their large number of base attacks, and even on them it is marginal due to the short range. Currently I run them with no guns, or with deathspitters. Points changes for 9th might make that change.
I've ran walking Termigants with 1 devourer to 2 fleshborer as part of 30 bug screening squads. 20 ablative wounds is enough that there is a reasonable chance to actually shoot with them. Walking 'gaunts are generally taken for screening/board control, so I'm expecting to lose most of them early and only give them the guns when I can't think of a better place for the points, which is rare.
The devilgaunt bomb is kind of a different story - you deep strike 20 to 30 of them, all with devourers, and look to nuke units with the combination of the reroll from 20 bodies and the volume of shots. The shoot twice means that if you can get good placement you can often kill two units, and if you don't have two targets you spend the CP somewhere else. You definitely want to only run devourers in the bomb. Most armies in the game can kill 20+ gaunts in a turn, which means you are only getting one good turn of shooting out of them, which means you want to maximize the alpha strike. You'll likely have a few survivors to run around being annoying with, but you can only expect to get one hammer blow with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Lictors can work again. I plan on seeing how a unit of Shock-guard can do vs all the mechanical gegays the imperium loves so much.
I am very excited about trying out shock-guard again. Depending on how points play out, double tapping shock guard in a venom cannon or stranglethorn tyranocyte might actually be usable. With the changes to blast, bringing five cannons with 36" could be very interesting. Next step is to find some way to get them to actually hit. Jorgmdr. power maybe?
It will probably eat a thousand points, but double cannon tyranocyte carrying double shock guard will kill anything short of a Knight after the double tap, and lets you get away from Jorgmdr to avoid the CP hit for multiple detachments. With the smaller board size and Lictors potentially working, I think I'm happy to outflank devilgaunts now, which means I can sit in Kraken or Kronos and splash some GSC for a double battalion structure.
All this is very dependent on how points play out, of course.
babelfish wrote: I have my Rippers set up so that each unit of three bases has a different number of Rippers on it, in order to make it easy to tell the broods apart. I have three with three Rippers and some terrain bits, three with four Rippers, so on.
That's... actually a really good idea. I may borrow that.
Thanks for the input everyone. I think I’ll start building half this box with devourers, can always adjust the ratio on the next one.
I like the idea of the number of rippers per base for telling them apart. I might also use base decorations for that, if I get to the point where I’m fielding multiple units. I was planning on adding assorted Ultramarine debris to the larger bases, could use shoulder pads on one, bolters on another, helmets on the third, etc.
I already built most of a box on hormagaunts, so know about the 2 part heads. I’ve got 4 more of those guys to build, but was going to do some body swaps with the termagants, just so they had a little more variation. Honestly, it’s just another step and doesn’t bother me too much.
I was planning on staying away from the Tervigon for a few reasons. One, not fond of the look. Ugly models have been known to grow on me over time, especially ones with good rules, so that’s not a hard stop. The spawning/healing rules seem like they are not going to be that big a deal, unless I’m running a lot of units. You can’t spawn new units unless you have reserve points, so unlikely. As for healing, I don’t suspect it’s going to be that hard to focus fire down a blob to just get it off the table. If I wanted to center a list around them, and multiple blobs of termagants, I could see them working. Saturation of multiple units, so there is always one that could be healed, all getting the buffs. But I’m only planning on one or two squads of the little guys, and some of those might be hiding in tunnels.
a squad of Raveners is on my watch list of things to grab eventually. I’m a big fan of the serpentine nid look. My initial thought was the deathspitters, as the idea of mobile firepower to use as troubleshooters appealed to me. The spinefits do look like a nice fit on the unit though. They are crappy shots, but you do get a whole mess of them. Not sure how often they would survive the extra rounds of CC to get to use them though.
Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.
However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.
On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).
princeyg wrote: Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.
However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.
On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).
3 old metal ones are from the random stock that’s forming the core of my new swarm.
Looking at the rules, they seem OKish? The fact that overwatch is not free might mean more spore mines connect, but they still seem a chunk of points for a few MW a turn.
princeyg wrote: Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.
However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.
On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).
I use Raveners on a regular basis because I am found of devilgaunts. I normally do a Jormungandr drop with three Raveners, 20-30 'gaunts, and a Neurothrope. If I'm running closer to 30 'gaunts I'll bring a fourth Ravener to give more flexibility when I place the unit.
I normally run them naked, or with deathspitters. The deathspitters have enough range that I'll normally get to shoot them the turn they land. If I happen to have the spare points I'll throw rending claws on them, but that is low priority. My experience is that they get beaten up the turn they land, and rarely get to charge. When they get ignored it is because everything nearby can handle them in cc.
I have never had success running then up the table, as much as I love the models and the entire wall of 'nid snakes idea. I've even considered kitting some out with various guns as counts as Hive Guard and running a snakes only army.
For biovores I took the model, cut the gun off the back, and stuck it on Hive Guard. The models bigger and I have it on a Hive Guard base, but because that makes it harder to hide it works against me and no one has ever had an issue with it.
For Pyrovores you could do the same thing, or maybe stick the gun on a Venomthropes body. The sacs on the back might work as acid storage.
Looking at the objectives, horde lists aren't necessarily dead. Sure they aren't going to be particularly killy, but the enemy only has 5 turns (6th and 7th turns are no longer a thing) and all missions are objective based and the easiest secondaries are about board control.
The only main downside would be the anti-horde secondary.
Idle thought...a stranglethorn Harpy averages 4 hits vs 6 to 9 model units (avg 4 shots per cannon, hitting on 4's) and 5.3 hits on 10+ model units. A HVC Harpy gets 3 hits vs 6+ model. That's not actually bad for primaris hunting.
They aren't super durable but considering that a decent army can kill a monster a turn no matter how tough it is, that's not a huge downside.
princeyg wrote: Yeah, I find it difficult to get much use out of raveners. Mine were built ages ago so they have rending claws and deathspitters. I find they turn up, dont do much with shooting, maybe make 1 charge then die.
However, maybe with the new terrain rules, running them across the table out of LoS would be a better tactic so i'll have to give that a try. I do agree though, they are one of my favorite units looks wise.
On another note, I think I am going to finally have to invest in biovores (or convert my own, they are one of only 2 nid units i dont really like aesthetically..the other being pyrovores).
I use Raveners on a regular basis because I am found of devilgaunts. I normally do a Jormungandr drop with three Raveners, 20-30 'gaunts, and a Neurothrope. If I'm running closer to 30 'gaunts I'll bring a fourth Ravener to give more flexibility when I place the unit.
I normally run them naked, or with deathspitters. The deathspitters have enough range that I'll normally get to shoot them the turn they land. If I happen to have the spare points I'll throw rending claws on them, but that is low priority. My experience is that they get beaten up the turn they land, and rarely get to charge. When they get ignored it is because everything nearby can handle them in cc.
I have never had success running then up the table, as much as I love the models and the entire wall of 'nid snakes idea. I've even considered kitting some out with various guns as counts as Hive Guard and running a snakes only army.
For biovores I took the model, cut the gun off the back, and stuck it on Hive Guard. The models bigger and I have it on a Hive Guard base, but because that makes it harder to hide it works against me and no one has ever had an issue with it.
For Pyrovores you could do the same thing, or maybe stick the gun on a Venomthropes body. The sacs on the back might work as acid storage.
I haven't tried jormungandr yet, perhaps its worth a shot.
Just like pistols last edition. Remember the last time someone actually shot pistols in combat? Yeah me neither.
If you charge them, it's after shooting so you need to wait engaged in combat for TWO hth rounds before you get to do your trick. If they charge you, you only need to wait 1 hth phase, but , they just charged you which means they mean to kill you dead.
I don't think anything in the Nid codex can take 2 rounds of hth and still be in shape to shoot next turn.
It's a neat little bonus means opponents can't invalidate your exocrine with 60 pts of bikers, but that's about it honestly.
Don't expect that Nidzilla will suddenly go bullet ninja or anything.
Usually your shooty monsters will be the ones that get charged, so you only need to survive 1 round of cc to shoot.
I've played one match with some of the leaked changes. Smaller tables will definately change things, I had trouble keeping my Dakkafexes from being charged. But oh boy the ones that survived did some nasty things in my next shooting phase.
I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.
In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.
I've been excited about dakkafex potential. With the volume of fire and the smaller board sizes it is going to be very hard to keep them from killing what they want to kill. They also have access to the +1 damage strat, correct? Even vs the 1+ save storm shield nonsense they are going to force some nat 1's.
I'm worried about impaler cannon hive guard. I think that they are going to be extremely useful, but I'm concered they are taking a price hike.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.
In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.
Re-rolls to hit is a spell not a strat. Outflanking 6 fexes would cost 4CP using the default strategic reserves rule. How are you getting 2CP?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.
In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.
Re-rolls to hit is a spell not a strat. Outflanking 6 fexes would cost 4CP using the default strategic reserves rule. How are you getting 2CP?
oh yeah I meant to say spell (not strat) which is why I didn't include any extra CP costs. I may have misunderstood the strat reserves rule - tho to my defense PL is quite unfamiliar territory 4 CP isn't as attractive at all.
Outflanking 6 dakkafex may not even be possible in a 2k game. That's 36PL which may end up being more than half your army in 9e.
I also ran the math on 3 and 6 dakkafex + flyrant with all the buffs you described. It is pitiful. 6 dakkafex + flyrant + successfully casting Lurking Maws only kills ~7.5 primaris. That's 4CP and ~850 pts (8e pts) failing to kill a single squad.
Well, using single damage no AP weapons against primaris isn't exactly ideal.
Remember that the game now is extremely focused in the middle of the battlefield and getting into melee is the norm, not something that you need to achieve trough multiple hoops. Our monstrous talons are quite good in the anti PEQ role. Damage 3 is just so good against marines.
The toxicrene is going to be quite good too. Remember that now he gets to strike first even if he gets charged and his melee profile has always been nasty.
Don't play the dakka game against marines. You don't need to kill, it will not give you any points. You need to control the middle end to murder his close combat elements.
Agreed Spoletta, but he has a point too. Primaris are a large part of the meta atm unfortunately. Maybe outflanking Tyrannofex may be better equipped for this sort of play.
Yeah Tyrannofexes are way better to DS. Maybe a 3 man dakkafexes with maw backed by the OOE could be a thing again. Need to see those points. My bet is on leak this week.
The Hierodule is dead btw @Nitro. 3CP and no fleet makes him borderline useless
We don't actually have rules for the Hierodule nor any of the FW models at present, FW/GW hasn't released the updated book for them. So they could go through some big changes compared to what they were.
My hope is we see these new books release a bit after 9th edition (since they aren't being previewed now so aren't coming out on the launch day, which is a bit of a shame)
Overread wrote: We don't actually have rules for the Hierodule nor any of the FW models at present, FW/GW hasn't released the updated book for them.
We have their current rules, just as we have all the current Tyranid rules, and that's all we've got to go on.
No sense in hoping GW get Hierodules right in a new set of rules because we don't know when those rules are coming and whether they'll actually make big 'Nid beasties worth taking. Right now though they cost CP to take and don't benefit from any Hive Fleet rules. And they were crap before that happened.
Scyth Hierodules were not like S tier but pretty underrated before tbh and served as a great power piece for Nidzilla, but yeah at 3 CP and no Hive Fleet, Emicrania is right. Their time is done unless they get a rework.
Emicrania wrote: Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.
It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.
Emicrania wrote: Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.
It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.
In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.
As mentioned it looks like that would be 4CP, and requires a Flyrant for the spell. Plus we shouldn't overestimate the 18" range. 6" from board edge = 24" effective range, shouldn't be too hard to avoid or mitigate (2+ save marines in cover). Same problem with outflanking Acidfex, too short range and lousy AP. In certain missions in certain matchups, it could probably be a nice tool. But not as the norm.
Spoletta wrote: Well, using single damage no AP weapons against primaris isn't exactly ideal.
Remember that the game now is extremely focused in the middle of the battlefield and getting into melee is the norm, not something that you need to achieve trough multiple hoops. Our monstrous talons are quite good in the anti PEQ role. Damage 3 is just so good against marines.
The toxicrene is going to be quite good too. Remember that now he gets to strike first even if he gets charged and his melee profile has always been nasty.
Don't play the dakka game against marines. You don't need to kill, it will not give you any points. You need to control the middle end to murder his close combat elements.
Toxicrene quite good? That's generous. It's kind of a turd that in good Tyranid tradition degrades in the worst possible manner, and probably require you to spend 1CP on Dermic Symbiosis to not just fold immediately to shooting.
I agree that the game will be more centered, especially if you can threaten the flanks. But it will set you back precious expensive points to outflank credible threats.
I'm actually considering Acid Maw on Dakkafexes over Enhanced Senses, because of the centered gameplay and smaller tables. But maybe it's better to just go full dakka focus as they can shoot into their own cc if they survive.
Emicrania wrote: Losing the protection of the venomthrope/malanthrope and Swarmy ability is the nail on the coffin. Too bad, I had high hopes on the model.
It loses the Hive Fleet Adaptations, but it doesn't lose the keyword and interaction with stratagems and auras.
Can't find the leaks ATM, you sure about that?
I'm sure, the restriction regarding those detachments refers to the abilities gained from having all the units in the same detachment being of the same faction. Which in our case are Hive Fleet Adaptations.
Emicrania wrote: Yeah Tyrannofexes are way better to DS. Maybe a 3 man dakkafexes with maw backed by the OOE could be a thing again. Need to see those points. My bet is on leak this week.
The Hierodule is dead btw @Nitro. 3CP and no fleet makes him borderline useless
Saw a batrep with the leaks and the CC monsters seem to be getting some needed boosts, lets hope for all the Big bugs...
Outflanking an Acidfex means you are double tapping for the first time in the third round. That's just not going to cut it.
If you want any decent shooting at all, you need to invest into a Kronos Patrol or Spearhead, RR1s plus Symbiostorm on a unit of HG or an Exo is too good to pass up. With those points spent, you don't want to invest more into outflanking, I guess.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I would usually run Kraken dakkafexes in 8th. They needed the mobility to get in Devourer range and threaten ideal targets before giving too many turns to be shot off the table.
In 9th, 2 CP is going to get us 6 Dakkafex outflanking, with -1 to be shot, 2+ save (Jormungandr), re-rolls to hit against a target (Jorm strat), and if we choose, Ignores Cover with flyrant Warlord or something. I think this will be quite impactful, to say the least.
As mentioned it looks like that would be 4CP, and requires a Flyrant for the spell. Plus we shouldn't overestimate the 18" range. 6" from board edge = 24" effective range, shouldn't be too hard to avoid or mitigate (2+ save marines in cover). Same problem with outflanking Acidfex, too short range and lousy AP. In certain missions in certain matchups, it could probably be a nice tool. But not as the norm.
24" from EITHER board edge, anywhere up and down the entire board other than enemy DZ and edge. On a smaller board too. Avoiding that is going to be a lot harder than you imply.
Also it doesn't require a Flyrant, it has universal range and can be cast from any unit that has vision. That power is far from restrictive.
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Acehilator wrote: Outflanking an Acidfex means you are double tapping for the first time in the third round. That's just not going to cut it.
Walking them gives you the same or worse, and has them taking damage along the way, and they still perform for me. Outflanking the first turn on they hit the board they get set-up and do some dammy, the second turn they can start knocking stuff down, and it's gonna be much harder to back out for them. I'd say playtest this before dismissing it.
JORMUNGANDR - Lurking Maws(WC6): Pick a visible enemy unit. Until end of turn, re-roll hit rolls against that unit from friendly Jormungandr units set up on the battlefield this turn. You cannot cast this in the first battle round.
Nitro Zeus wrote: JORMUNGANDR - Lurking Maws(WC6): Pick a visible enemy unit. Until end of turn, re-roll hit rolls against that unit from friendly Jormungandr units set up on the battlefield this turn. You cannot cast this in the first battle round.
Ah. Ok. That one. I've not had any experience with playing Jormungandr.
Odd that it has no range. It's like Synaptic Lure, a power I have used a bit. Really surprised they didn't FAQ that.
One thing i stumbled over by reading the new core rules was the following:
P15/16: Note, that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon's attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them.
Maybe i remember it the wrong way, but i thought you only could shoot things you can acutally see and are in range, and not things out of line of sight.
This rule however states, that you can eradicate whole units, when you can see just one dude alone, no matter if you blast him away, the rest will shoot around corners and whatnot.
Possible scenario:
Only some guys are in sight and range to ALL of your weapons. First shots kills them, and the rest of the unit (with other weapons, grenades etc), which could not shoot any further either, nor can see anything, now load their heck of ammunition on the spot someone have been killed an eyeblink befor to slay models, they have no idea where they could be.
Yes, although if you have 3 or more LoW they could get Hive Fleet Adaptations in a Super-heavy Detachment. The restriction only applies to the Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment.
Which to be fair, is how it already works for I think every other army except tyranids in 8th edition. It's unfortunate as we didn't need the nerf, but this makes superheavy auxiliary detachments consistent across all armies.
Than is not that bad, a Hierodule and a battalion bring us down to 9 CP, 8 after double adaptation; 13 CP total playing 5 turns. The same I play now, I might even ds 3*10 gaunts for late scoring for 1 CP, is not that bad.
Still points and rework might transform this dude into a real treat or onto a dud.
I really like the look of the maleceptor, but fail to see why you would ever want one instead of the same points in zoanthropes? It seems absolutely useless in melee, and the psychic tendrils seems rather trash having only a 6" range.
I think is good but a bit too pricey. Best case scenario you transform a 4 to W into a 5. Which is a 17% decrease in effectiveness. Now if it was a -1 to W, that would be really good.
Emicrania wrote: I think is good but a bit too pricey. Best case scenario you transform a 4 to W into a 5. Which is a 17% decrease in effectiveness. Now if it was a -1 to W, that would be really good.
4+ to 5+ is a 33% increase in durability, comparable from reducing Damage 3 to Damage 2 and better than reducing a D6 damage by 1.
So is 9th going to be as boring for nids as I'm thinking it will be? I generally run a about 120 gaunts along side some mixed fexes and tyrants. But with the triple whammy horde melee appears to be recieving in 9th, big blobs of hormagaunts tying up a couple units with consolations seems to be dead.
Only thing I can really see working in 9th is a gunline. I'm assuming what what is ~1800 now will be the new 2000. This is the "best" I've been able to figure out so far.
Alright, I did some quick math on the Zoanthropes vs Maleceptor, in a purely offensive look:
Zoanthrope unit begins at full strength, attempts to cast Smite up to 2x if able
3 Zoanthropes: AVG = 0.0139 MW/pt, MED = 0.0167 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0000
4 Zoanthropes: AVG = 0.0383 MW/pt, MED = 0.0375 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0000
5 Zoanthropes: AVG = 0.0311 MW/pt, MED = 0.0300 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0100
6 Zoanthropes: AVG = 0.0323 MW/pt, MED = 0.0375 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0167
Maleceptor begins at full strength, attempts to cast Smite up to 2x
Smite: AVG = 0.0219 MW/pt, MED = 0.0250 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0063
1 around: AVG = 0.0073 MW/pt, MED = 0.0063 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0000
2 around: AVG = 0.0146 MW/pt, MED = 0.0125 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0063
3 around: AVG = 0.0219 MW/pt, MED = 0.0187 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0063
4 around: AVG = 0.0292 MW/pt, MED = 0.0250 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0125
5 around: AVG = 0.0365 MW/pt, MED = 0.0375 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0187
6 around: AVG = 0.0437 MW/pt, MED = 0.0437 MW/pt, 5th Percentile = 0.0250
So really, to be as effective as a unit of 4+ Zoanthropes, a Maleceptor needs to get within 6" of 5+ units. Seems hard compared to the 24" range Zoanthrope Smite is effective at.
Nitro Zeus wrote: nobody is taking Maleceptor for anything other than the strat with the mortal wounds as a bonus
I just want the big monsters to be actually usable as big monsters. Seeing as the melee profile is... Not, I thought I'd examine how good it was for dishing out MW as a Psyker.
Nitro Zeus wrote: nobody is taking Maleceptor for anything other than the strat with the mortal wounds as a bonus
I just want the big monsters to be actually usable as big monsters. Seeing as the melee profile is... Not, I thought I'd examine how good it was for dishing out MW as a Psyker.
If you want big monsters you do not take the Maleceptor. You take it for the stratagem. Or because it is a giant brain with legs. (D&D's good old intelectual devourer, just in a nid design.)
Emicrania wrote: I think is good but a bit too pricey. Best case scenario you transform a 4 to W into a 5. Which is a 17% decrease in effectiveness. Now if it was a -1 to W, that would be really good.
4+ to 5+ is a 33% increase in durability, comparable from reducing Damage 3 to Damage 2 and better than reducing a D6 damage by 1.
You are right about that. Still I haven´t found that coming up so considerably to justify 160 points for a model and spending 2cp once per game. It should be on the datasheet and be "once per game".
Emicrania wrote: I think is good but a bit too pricey. Best case scenario you transform a 4 to W into a 5. Which is a 17% decrease in effectiveness. Now if it was a -1 to W, that would be really good.
4+ to 5+ is a 33% increase in durability, comparable from reducing Damage 3 to Damage 2 and better than reducing a D6 damage by 1.
You are right about that. Still I haven´t found that coming up so considerably to justify 160 points for a model and spending 2cp once per game. It should be on the datasheet and be "once per game".
I've used a Maleceptor (the "God King"!) for all of 8th. Ignore the special ability that does a mortal wound to units around him -- there's no world in which it's useful. I run him as Kraken, with Psychic Scream and Smite. He goes front and center in my army, and goes straight up the board as the front line of my center board control. I use him to "bad touch" things that I don't want shooting at my Exocrines, to tie up units that might go for center objectives with a charge, to cast d3 mortal wounds twice per round at +1, and generally to be an annoyance wherever possible. I'll often budget a CP or two to reroll his 4+ invulnerable against bigger shots (flat 3 damage or d6 damage). He's very rarely let me down.
I'm not going to argue that he was top table tournament good, but I have taken a number of small local tournaments using him this way.
Use and enjoy if you like the model -- that's the only reason I do it, it's my favorite Tyranid model.
Emicrania wrote: I think is good but a bit too pricey. Best case scenario you transform a 4 to W into a 5. Which is a 17% decrease in effectiveness. Now if it was a -1 to W, that would be really good.
4+ to 5+ is a 33% increase in durability, comparable from reducing Damage 3 to Damage 2 and better than reducing a D6 damage by 1.
You are right about that. Still I haven´t found that coming up so considerably to justify 160 points for a model and spending 2cp once per game. It should be on the datasheet and be "once per game".
I've used a Maleceptor (the "God King"!) for all of 8th. Ignore the special ability that does a mortal wound to units around him -- there's no world in which it's useful. I run him as Kraken, with Psychic Scream and Smite. He goes front and center in my army, and goes straight up the board as the front line of my center board control. I use him to "bad touch" things that I don't want shooting at my Exocrines, to tie up units that might go for center objectives with a charge, to cast d3 mortal wounds twice per round at +1, and generally to be an annoyance wherever possible. I'll often budget a CP or two to reroll his 4+ invulnerable against bigger shots (flat 3 damage or d6 damage). He's very rarely let me down.
I'm not going to argue that he was top table tournament good, but I have taken a number of small local tournaments using him this way.
Use and enjoy if you like the model -- that's the only reason I do it, it's my favorite Tyranid model.
I like the model but competievly is kind of a bummer. Still it won me a game with his aura vs Ta´u, it went supernova and blasted 4 unit of 2 drones and finished off other 2 units of 1-2 drones left from bigger squads :S
addnid wrote:Who thinks zoanthropes double smiting unlike in 8th (unless I missed something) will perhaps have play?
Niiai wrote:We will see. The smite restriction in 8th was not placed in the rules.
If smite x2 is inn, zoanthropes can be really good. As can a neuronthrope with the resonemce barb. It can smite 3 times.
The core rules released on Warhammer Community do indicated that smiting as much as you want is totally a thing. The cost goes up 1 per previous attempt to cast Smite (note, it does not matter if the attempt succeeds or fails).
I have already done some math on the Zoanthrope Smite spamming plan. See below:
So the first unit spamming out Smites you can expect to do quite a bit. As the cost continues to go up, their effectiveness falls. One thing I need to examine is if it may be better to have a Maleceptor start casting Smite eventually, because of it's +1 to cast. It would be hard to overcome the Zoanthrope's Warp Blast bonus damage though. Also to consider Psychic Scream, as it's basically another Smite.
Above, see the efficiency of the damage you're doing rapidly decreases as the cost goes up to cast.
EDIT: Running units of 4 would be more efficient, albeit less resilient to attacks and start falling off as soon as they take damage. This may be desirable, as it incentivizes opponents to shoot the Zoanthropes rather than your bigger killy bugs rushing at them.
Yeah, if it were intended they’d have talked about Magnus throwing around 14 mortals per turn on average dice in the Thousand Sons faction focus. It will almost certainly be FAQ’d and if it isn’t...
The changes to character protection appears to hurt us the least of any faction. Malanthropes and Neurothropes are 1. fairly durable, 2. babysitting something high priority, and 3. behind a gaunt screen that is keeping smash captains away from whatever unit #2 happens to be. In 8th you lost them after the screen got killed and the shooting thing they were babysitting was dead. I can't really see that changing all that much. Primes normally sit in the middle of a Warrior or may 'fex blob. Again, they died when the blob died, that won't be much different. Other than that, our characters are MC's, who it doesn't impact and Deathleaper maybe?
Speaking of monsterous characters, sword and cannon flyrants might be worth looking at. Their weakness was you lose two a turn and it takes three turns to do anything with them. With smaller boards and reduced lethality (terrain changes + fewer guns from increased points) they will have a better chance of getting into sweet sweet CC. The changes to blast make HVC's and stranglethorns interesting again. There is an relic somewhere than makes one of them a flamer at 12? (I'm not going to bother to look it up at the moment) inches, which has potential. Flat damage from the swords makes them attractive in a primaris heavy environment as well. All of this will of course be point dependent, but I can see running triple flyrant again.
Smaller board sizes make outflanking devilgants and 'stealers feel juicy. It is going to be hard for someone to be out of threat range of either of those units, and even if they are, you've pressured them into very limited movement options, which is advantageous. Someone staying away from an objective because they don't want to be eaten by 'stealers makes it easier to out score them. I'm already planning to allocate a CP for somebody outflanking, I just haven't decided who yet.
The changes to blast don't hurt as much as some people seem to think. 30 'gaunts in Malanthrope protection died in one turn vs most armies, they will still die in one turn vs most armies. The tools to kill hordes were already in the game, and used against us. If people start bringing plasma again, they are welcome to point it at my 'gaunts. If you wan't to run 300 hormies I honestly think it will work just as well - and have just the same issues - as it did in 8th - you won't get shot off the table but you won't do much but stand on objectives and remove models until the clock runs out.
I don't think the casualty removal/no conga lines thing will hurt that much either. Zippering big screening squads isn't hard. Normally when I had odd lines going everywhere it was because I was trying to block off deep strike locations and sticking offshoots off my big units out to block as much as possible. WIth smaller boards, that will be easier to do. Our CC units either don't care cause monster, or want to be packed in to maximize damage anyway. If you need to leave a fishhook or chain out their to tag something or block a movement/deep strike, those guys were going to die as soon as they got looked at anyway. That is the joy of playing bugs - losing 30 guys and shrugging because of course you lost them and you don't care, you expected that. Or better yet, losing 25 and laughing as they have to waste a unit finishing them off.
If it doesn't get faq'd away, the repeat smite is going to be nice. 18 zoeys and some Exocrines was already strong, because 18 zoeys takes substantial work to kill. I don't think blast impacts them too hard, 'cause 3++, but after the math that was posted upthread I'm very open to trying 4 or 5 model units.
Hive Guard are going to be insane, even after the points hike. I don't think it is going to be possible to get 18 zoeys and 12 Hive Guard in the same build, because that's likely going to be 2/3s of your points and filling out the brigade ain't free, but mayyyyyybe specialty detachment + battalion can do it.
My first game in 9th is going to be exactly like my first game in 8th. I'm going to take 3 Hive Tyrants, 3 Trygons, the Harpy I scratch built out of a Trygon and a Warhammer Fantasy dragon. Then I'm going to add in whatever else I need to make it a legal list. I'm going to throw all of that at a local tournament, because eventually they will release an edition where I can win events with my three favorite models. After that I'm going to spend hours in battlescribe and reading discussions until I find a build that I like, and I'm going to do everything in my power to win a GT with it. I've been trying since 5th ed without at top ten yet, but I'm going to try.
Tyranids have never been an easy faction. They never will be. We don't get easy win buttons. We don't get models every week. We lose games because we made a tiny mistake that only our faction can make involving a rule only we have. We savor every victory because we earn them. 9th edition will change things. It probably won't make it easy for Tyranids, but no edition ever does. We put in more effort than any other faction in order to figure out how to make our bugs work, then we give people nasty surprises.
The changes to character protection appears to hurt us the least of any faction. Malanthropes and Neurothropes are 1. fairly durable, 2. babysitting something high priority, and 3. behind a gaunt screen that is keeping smash captains away from whatever unit #2 happens to be. In 8th you lost them after the screen got killed and the shooting thing they were babysitting was dead. I can't really see that changing all that much. Primes normally sit in the middle of a Warrior or may 'fex blob. Again, they died when the blob died, that won't be much different. Other than that, our characters are MC's, who it doesn't impact and Deathleaper maybe?
Speaking of monsterous characters, sword and cannon flyrants might be worth looking at. Their weakness was you lose two a turn and it takes three turns to do anything with them. With smaller boards and reduced lethality (terrain changes + fewer guns from increased points) they will have a better chance of getting into sweet sweet CC. The changes to blast make HVC's and stranglethorns interesting again. There is an relic somewhere than makes one of them a flamer at 12? (I'm not going to bother to look it up at the moment) inches, which has potential. Flat damage from the swords makes them attractive in a primaris heavy environment as well. All of this will of course be point dependent, but I can see running triple flyrant again.
Smaller board sizes make outflanking devilgants and 'stealers feel juicy. It is going to be hard for someone to be out of threat range of either of those units, and even if they are, you've pressured them into very limited movement options, which is advantageous. Someone staying away from an objective because they don't want to be eaten by 'stealers makes it easier to out score them. I'm already planning to allocate a CP for somebody outflanking, I just haven't decided who yet.
The changes to blast don't hurt as much as some people seem to think. 30 'gaunts in Malanthrope protection died in one turn vs most armies, they will still die in one turn vs most armies. The tools to kill hordes were already in the game, and used against us. If people start bringing plasma again, they are welcome to point it at my 'gaunts. If you wan't to run 300 hormies I honestly think it will work just as well - and have just the same issues - as it did in 8th - you won't get shot off the table but you won't do much but stand on objectives and remove models until the clock runs out.
I don't think the casualty removal/no conga lines thing will hurt that much either. Zippering big screening squads isn't hard. Normally when I had odd lines going everywhere it was because I was trying to block off deep strike locations and sticking offshoots off my big units out to block as much as possible. WIth smaller boards, that will be easier to do. Our CC units either don't care cause monster, or want to be packed in to maximize damage anyway. If you need to leave a fishhook or chain out their to tag something or block a movement/deep strike, those guys were going to die as soon as they got looked at anyway. That is the joy of playing bugs - losing 30 guys and shrugging because of course you lost them and you don't care, you expected that. Or better yet, losing 25 and laughing as they have to waste a unit finishing them off.
If it doesn't get faq'd away, the repeat smite is going to be nice. 18 zoeys and some Exocrines was already strong, because 18 zoeys takes substantial work to kill. I don't think blast impacts them too hard, 'cause 3++, but after the math that was posted upthread I'm very open to trying 4 or 5 model units.
Hive Guard are going to be insane, even after the points hike. I don't think it is going to be possible to get 18 zoeys and 12 Hive Guard in the same build, because that's likely going to be 2/3s of your points and filling out the brigade ain't free, but mayyyyyybe specialty detachment + battalion can do it.
My first game in 9th is going to be exactly like my first game in 8th. I'm going to take 3 Hive Tyrants, 3 Trygons, the Harpy I scratch built out of a Trygon and a Warhammer Fantasy dragon. Then I'm going to add in whatever else I need to make it a legal list. I'm going to throw all of that at a local tournament, because eventually they will release an edition where I can win events with my three favorite models. After that I'm going to spend hours in battlescribe and reading discussions until I find a build that I like, and I'm going to do everything in my power to win a GT with it. I've been trying since 5th ed without at top ten yet, but I'm going to try.
Tyranids have never been an easy faction. They never will be. We don't get easy win buttons. We don't get models every week. We lose games because we made a tiny mistake that only our faction can make involving a rule only we have. We savor every victory because we earn them. 9th edition will change things. It probably won't make it easy for Tyranids, but no edition ever does. We put in more effort than any other faction in order to figure out how to make our bugs work, then we give people nasty surprises.
Too much optimism seasoned with not so logical conclusions (Zoeys were never strong the way you claim, Flyrants with flat D3 won't do anything against Primaris with only 4 attacks and stealers are gonna get removed from any decent list all nerfs considered) and 0 knowledge of points. Tomorrow is gonna be a terrible day for you when you get to know the points costs of our stuff
The changes to character protection appears to hurt us the least of any faction. Malanthropes and Neurothropes are 1. fairly durable, 2. babysitting something high priority, and 3. behind a gaunt screen that is keeping smash captains away from whatever unit #2 happens to be. In 8th you lost them after the screen got killed and the shooting thing they were babysitting was dead. I can't really see that changing all that much. Primes normally sit in the middle of a Warrior or may 'fex blob. Again, they died when the blob died, that won't be much different. Other than that, our characters are MC's, who it doesn't impact and Deathleaper maybe?
Speaking of monsterous characters, sword and cannon flyrants might be worth looking at. Their weakness was you lose two a turn and it takes three turns to do anything with them. With smaller boards and reduced lethality (terrain changes + fewer guns from increased points) they will have a better chance of getting into sweet sweet CC. The changes to blast make HVC's and stranglethorns interesting again. There is an relic somewhere than makes one of them a flamer at 12? (I'm not going to bother to look it up at the moment) inches, which has potential. Flat damage from the swords makes them attractive in a primaris heavy environment as well. All of this will of course be point dependent, but I can see running triple flyrant again.
Smaller board sizes make outflanking devilgants and 'stealers feel juicy. It is going to be hard for someone to be out of threat range of either of those units, and even if they are, you've pressured them into very limited movement options, which is advantageous. Someone staying away from an objective because they don't want to be eaten by 'stealers makes it easier to out score them. I'm already planning to allocate a CP for somebody outflanking, I just haven't decided who yet.
The changes to blast don't hurt as much as some people seem to think. 30 'gaunts in Malanthrope protection died in one turn vs most armies, they will still die in one turn vs most armies. The tools to kill hordes were already in the game, and used against us. If people start bringing plasma again, they are welcome to point it at my 'gaunts. If you wan't to run 300 hormies I honestly think it will work just as well - and have just the same issues - as it did in 8th - you won't get shot off the table but you won't do much but stand on objectives and remove models until the clock runs out.
I don't think the casualty removal/no conga lines thing will hurt that much either. Zippering big screening squads isn't hard. Normally when I had odd lines going everywhere it was because I was trying to block off deep strike locations and sticking offshoots off my big units out to block as much as possible. WIth smaller boards, that will be easier to do. Our CC units either don't care cause monster, or want to be packed in to maximize damage anyway. If you need to leave a fishhook or chain out their to tag something or block a movement/deep strike, those guys were going to die as soon as they got looked at anyway. That is the joy of playing bugs - losing 30 guys and shrugging because of course you lost them and you don't care, you expected that. Or better yet, losing 25 and laughing as they have to waste a unit finishing them off.
If it doesn't get faq'd away, the repeat smite is going to be nice. 18 zoeys and some Exocrines was already strong, because 18 zoeys takes substantial work to kill. I don't think blast impacts them too hard, 'cause 3++, but after the math that was posted upthread I'm very open to trying 4 or 5 model units.
Hive Guard are going to be insane, even after the points hike. I don't think it is going to be possible to get 18 zoeys and 12 Hive Guard in the same build, because that's likely going to be 2/3s of your points and filling out the brigade ain't free, but mayyyyyybe specialty detachment + battalion can do it.
My first game in 9th is going to be exactly like my first game in 8th. I'm going to take 3 Hive Tyrants, 3 Trygons, the Harpy I scratch built out of a Trygon and a Warhammer Fantasy dragon. Then I'm going to add in whatever else I need to make it a legal list. I'm going to throw all of that at a local tournament, because eventually they will release an edition where I can win events with my three favorite models. After that I'm going to spend hours in battlescribe and reading discussions until I find a build that I like, and I'm going to do everything in my power to win a GT with it. I've been trying since 5th ed without at top ten yet, but I'm going to try.
Tyranids have never been an easy faction. They never will be. We don't get easy win buttons. We don't get models every week. We lose games because we made a tiny mistake that only our faction can make involving a rule only we have. We savor every victory because we earn them. 9th edition will change things. It probably won't make it easy for Tyranids, but no edition ever does. We put in more effort than any other faction in order to figure out how to make our bugs work, then we give people nasty surprises.
Well said! No need to cry tears over wounds not yet taken,
The Rupture Cannon is mentioned to be 20, not 12, sadly. I really hope these points increases don't hurt the Tyranids too much. I'm playing Sisters myself and they seem to come out rather well. The friend I play against most has Tyranids and the last few games were just not fair. He was struggling a lot against the new codex Sisters.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When reading all this, remember that multi shot weapons have been nerfed in general.
Both Heavy bolters and Disintegrators got quite the price hike.
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
In line with other increases in the other factions. Only the Mawloc stings a bit.
Nobody played those. No-fracking-body. And no, not everything got increases. Land raiders went down in cost. Defilers stayed the same. So did plenty other things.
Price increases should not be in vacuum based on a brainless algorithm.
Haruspex and Acidfex actually get a lot from 9th, so it makes sense that they are going up. Mawloc is a bit strange, but they are excellent for some secondaries, so I could see a logic.
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
In line with other increases in the other factions. Only the Mawloc stings a bit.
Nobody played those. No-fracking-body. And no, not everything got increases. Land raiders went down in cost. Defilers stayed the same. So did plenty other things.
Price increases should not be in vacuum based on a brainless algorithm.
Nah, see, Spoletta's going to tell us that the Haruspex is actually good, we're just using him wrong.
I'm probably being wayy too salty, but this just grinds my gears. As you mentioned, GW largely did spare crappy units from further nerfs with other armies. They didn't for Nids. We draw the short straw again on our crappiest units. I don't know if folks remember but when 8th launched, the Haruspex was an eye watering 276 points. I guess we're lucky they didn't do that again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Haruspex and Acidfex actually get a lot from 9th, so it makes sense that they are going up. Mawloc is a bit strange, but they are excellent for some secondaries, so I could see a logic.
Speak of the devil! What does the Haruspex get in 9th, pray tell? How do melee monstrous creatures change besides a 5'' vertical engagement?
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
Fexes and Tyrants didn't have this problem.
Beasts like that are shaping up to be vital elements in the new edition, at least according to the first battle reports. Remember that you need to capture and hold.
And then there is the 5" vertical engagement.
All of this is purely speculation naturally, but I see more purpose to them compared to 8th.
If someone just picked up a Start Collecting box, how would you build it? With 9th and the new points in mind.
Broodlord, not a lot of options.
Genestealers? Barebones rending claws looks good to me. Any of the whistles and bells worth it? Flesh hooks seem like they would actually be a drawback. If you are lucky, you might kill one model, which might make your charge harder. Acid Maw seems more worthwhile. Better AP all the time for no cost? Is there a “only bite once” rule somewhere?
With the big bug there are more options. Multiple monsters, multiple options. Thoughts?
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
Fexes and Tyrants didn't have this problem.
Beasts like that are shaping up to be vital elements in the new edition, at least according to the first battle reports. Remember that you need to capture and hold.
And then there is the 5" vertical engagement.
All of this is purely speculation naturally, but I see more purpose to them compared to 8th.
Dude, I'm 99% sure the Haruspex is less than 5'' tall. I don't have one next to me but I don't think that Obscuring helps him at all.
Also, the Haruspex is tough enough and has lots of wounds but the first part of Capture and Hold is Capture. He certainly does not have the offensive output to do that part.
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
LOS or not, a slow cc monster deployed back and thus forced to walk around a ruin fills no function in an army.
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
LOS or not, a slow cc monster deployed back and thus forced to walk around a ruin fills no function in an army.
Yes, I could see that as an issue. His mobility is too low a lot of times.
Niiai wrote: I would not recomend the start collecting box ar the moment.
Mawlocks, Trygon and Trygon prime where very bad. In 9th they became mych worse.
Broodloord and GS where very good. But with the point increase I am having a hard time seeing them being used.
And then there are no models left in the box.
That’s fair, but what’s the least worst option to build them? Assume someone likes the looks of the models, and wants to field them.
I have not seen how the forge world stuff is in 9th edition. But if you have a trygon and a tyranofex kit you can kitbash a very descent titan. Also, there where soem play to the trygon before. Not much, but a little.
I stil think broodlord is fine if the game shifts over to elite units.
Nevelon wrote: If someone just picked up a Start Collecting box, how would you build it? With 9th and the new points in mind.
Broodlord, not a lot of options.
Genestealers? Barebones rending claws looks good to me. Any of the whistles and bells worth it? Flesh hooks seem like they would actually be a drawback. If you are lucky, you might kill one model, which might make your charge harder. Acid Maw seems more worthwhile. Better AP all the time for no cost? Is there a “only bite once” rule somewhere?
With the big bug there are more options. Multiple monsters, multiple options. Thoughts?
Acid Maws are a given on all the GS that can take it. Don't take other options, they are already quite costly and fragile.
For the monster, I would go with the Trygon because IMHO the model is cooler, but the best on the table will probably be the mawlock in 9th. He can appear from nowhere and constest a point while maybe also Repairing a Teleport homer.
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
The Trygon (and the prime) seem a lot more killy for the points invested, but the shooting, while there, is not that impressive, so they need to make that charge. But seem very blender like once they get there.
Little buddies in the tunnels might not be as important now that we can just reserve things. But could be a way of getting some ObSec downfield? Or just some dakka.
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
There has been no meta until now. The last one shattered when the marine doctrines were nerfed, which had huge impacts. Yet, thanks to a certain virus there has been no meaningful data in the last months, so we don't know what a typical opponent list looks like.
IH are probably gone. Flyer spam is gone. Disintegrator spam is gone. Orks have lost the Mek Guns and the SAG. IG lists can no longer easily combine specialist detachments. TS soup is gone. Possessed bomb is gone. Tau castles have been killed by 15 point drones and no fly fallback.
At the same time, single shot multi damage weapons have seen a small decrease in cost.
It's a whole new world out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only thing that I really really really hate are those melta marines at 40 points. They will shape the meta.
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.
No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.
But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.
I watched a test play on you-tube that was Nids vs space wolves. Nids lost but the Haru was the MVP. I believe that some newish strats were the reason. Have to try out new tactics for the new rule set. The center of the board is much more critical with the new missions, and Nids do grab and hold pretty well. The edge of the board is closer to the center so reserve tricks might prove useful as well. I am willing to see if a Big momma bug and a swarm of Termies can grab and hold the center, while MSU Stealers can do secondaries.....
Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now. Min size Gargoyle and Hormagant tarpits are looking better than ever too with a smaller percentage increase than Termagants, less overwatch in the game, and Fly units not being able to fallback and shoot if tagged, but still might not be enough to justify them. Min size helps them dodge blast and still spread ground through coherency changes though, and a good Nid list probably not too scared of morale. the Exocrine did not go up too much and is just too good at dealing with Primaris to be left at home. Neurothropes are still our best HQ. Malanthrope is only gonna be playable with monsters, but Venoms will be great. A tankier, ground control style of play will with throwaway gribblies will probably push its way to the top of the pack for us, as such Maleceptor should definitely be considered. Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard is also a real consideration now too!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just my thoughts. But anyone STILL running Genestealers, this was GW saying “dude. NOW will you give up?”
Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now. Min size Gargoyle and Hormagant tarpits are looking better than ever too with a smaller percentage increase than Termagants, less overwatch in the game, and Fly units not being able to fallback and shoot if tagged, but still might not be enough to justify them. Min size helps them dodge blast and still spread ground through coherency changes though, and a good Nid list probably not too scared of morale. the Exocrine did not go up too much and is just too good at dealing with Primaris to be left at home. Neurothropes are still our best HQ. Malanthrope is only gonna be playable with monsters, but Venoms will be great. A tankier, ground control style of play will with throwaway gribblies will probably push its way to the top of the pack for us, as such Maleceptor should definitely be considered. Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard is also a real consideration now too!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just my thoughts. But anyone STILL running Genestealers, this was GW saying “dude. NOW will you give up?”
You think Tyrant guards gods got better?
It is also time to test out ravaners instad of genestealers I think.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now.
Warriors went up 3 points base, then the most common loadout, Swords + Spitter, went up another 1+1. So you go up from 25 to 30. A 20% increase, far above the average. Spamming 5-man Leviathan/Jormungandr Warrior units might still be the best we can do when it comes to troops.
Raveners up 4ppm or 22.2%, not a good look for a unit in t-shirts, in a game where you need your army to survive to win.
*Page 88 – Old One Eye, Alpha Leader
Add the following to the end of this ability:
‘In addition, while any other friendly <Hive Fleet> Carnifex
units are within 3” of this model, enemy models cannot target
this model with ranged attacks.’
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ignoring other armies changes, My preliminary thoughts on what is good for US: Mid range infantry is best now. Warriors and Hive Guard. Damn, I didn’t want to bother painting up warriors but they will be one of the better things we do now.
Warriors went up 3 points base, then the most common loadout, Swords + Spitter, went up another 1+1. So you go up from 25 to 30. A 20% increase, far above the average. Spamming 5-man Leviathan/Jormungandr Warrior units might still be the best we can do when it comes to troops.
Raveners up 4ppm or 22.2%, not a good look for a unit in t-shirts, in a game where you need your army to survive to win.
Didn’t see the wargear cost. Yeah that’s probably a bit too pricey for Tyranid Warriors.
Tyrant Guard didn’t go up by much as far as I can tell and I think would go well with a Swarmlord in this sort of list. But the idea of a warrior list may not be that great.
As a big Nidzilla player Im skeptical about Nidzilla and monster heavy play, when the most popular unit in the most popular army is almost definitely going to be a 24” range Assault melta unit. I don’t really see how we can perform in that meta, and trying to guard them with a Malanthrope or whatever just means 30” range on the melta since they can now run and gun without further penalty. Tyrannofex outflanking will be the only real option for them because they definitely can’t run up the board now. Hordes and auras may be impacted by coherency and blasts, but I think life is still gonna be worse for monsters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again infantry got such a price hike that it’s also not pretty.
I’ll probably stick with some big bugs. It’s what I’ve done so far. But I don’t know if bubbling around a Malanthrope is gonna cut it anymore. Dermic Exocrines, and outflanking Tyrannofex are probably the mainstays. Footslogging Dakkafex are just gonna pop like balloons :( even with the price hike, board control with either gaunts or Warriors may be the way forward
Now that the equip of the warrior is a significant part of it's cost (9/30) I will try to run double Scythal warriors to be my "Hold this point" units. A 5 bug unit is 105 points and with a CP for the -1 damage, it can take quite a lot of beating.
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.
No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.
But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.
Spoiler:
So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.
No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.
But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.
Spoiler:
So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.
WHAT? Wasn't easier to just buy 7 and end up with 1 prime, 3 trygons and 3 mawlocs?
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
Seems a little odd that he has normal talons and not the massive ones. That strat seems almost mandatory to use.
No problems with you being harsh. I get that none of the choices are good. I’m OK making bad decisions, I just want them to be well researched and with my eyes open to the options.
But I love the look the the snake nids, so I’m going to be including him. Finished the biovores and spore mines, so it was time to grab the next thing on the list.
Spoiler:
So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.
I magnetised the whole model tail all 6 talons and all the head parts. I find the tyranids easy to magnetise
Warriors at 24, deathspitters at 6, barbed strangler at 10, venom cannon at 15, boneswords at 3.
Min naked squad (double scything talon) is 72 points. 5 are 120. Maxed at 9 is 216.
Deathspitters + talons are 90, 150, and 270.
Swords and deathspitters are 99, 165, 297.
Deathspitters and barbed stranglers (w/talons) are 94 per three models. Swords bring that up to 103. Venom cannons instead of stranglers are 99/108 per 3 man.
At only being a point more expensive that rending claws, I think if you are putting a CC weapon on them, Warriors still like boneswords best. I don't mind swapping them down to trim the odd point if needed.
Maxed out they get the most benefit out of adaptions but are of course taking extra hits from blast. Running max squads with improved durability from adaptions + malanthrope and a prime feels less attractive now. It was never amazing but had potential.
MSU is likely the way to go with them. With smaller board size, more terrain benefits, and center control all being more important, I can see running a big pile of 3-4 man squads with just about any loadout. 6 broods of three with v cannons, spitters, and swords is 660 points. Swapping for stranglers brings it down to 620, dropping the cannons entirley brings it to just under 600. The units take up space, can do some damage, and they can melta them all day long if they want to. They also don't mind dedicating a turn to standing around scoring a secondary instead of being useful, because each squad doesn't do all that much in the first place. Not amazing, but playable I think.
Impaler Hive Guard at 50 is strong. Right now as best I can tell they don't ignore -1 to hit from cover but they do ignore improved saves. FAQ might change that, I'm not holding my breath. With impalers being heavy, there will be the occasional moment were the lack of stacking -1's let you move them for a better shot without penalty. Not going to be super common because of 36" range. 250 for a five man is decent enough.
Exocrine at 170, sure. Still going to be a staple, with dermic and maybe a malanthrope.
Neurothrope at 95, not a big deal. Gets a bit of a bonus from the casting based secondaries.
Rippers up by 1. Deep strike plus short model for hiding behind things and scoring is worth the point.
Termagaunts up by 1, lol. 270 for max devilgaunts. Outflanking probably makes them worth it. I'm a huge fan of the unit, so maybe rose colored glasses here.
Zoanthropes at 45. If double smite doesn't get faq'd away then lol indeed. 225 for 5, 270 for 6, double smiting at 24" range. Walk a Neurothrope up with them to reroll 1's and toss out an additional smite or shriek. If you keep the units positioned so that the smites land on the same target, two broods could do 12+4d3 mortals. That's non-trivial.
babelfish wrote:So it is fairly easy to drop a big magnet in the neck of the trygon body and do both the Mawlock and trygon heads. You can put the three biggest sets of talons on there and swap out heads depending on which one you want to use.
topaxygouroun i wrote:WHAT? Wasn't easier to just buy 7 and end up with 1 prime, 3 trygons and 3 mawlocs?
.....asking for a friend, of course...
nordsturmking wrote:I magnetised the whole model tail all 6 talons and all the head parts. I find the tyranids easy to magnetise
Heh. If I end up with 7 of these guys, something has gone horribly wrong. But that’s just me. At least with Tyranids there is no wrong answer for how many of something you can own. I’ve got more Ultramarine Captains then there are companies to lead. The Codex does not approve this action.
I’m no stanger to magnets, and might go down that path. I’ve not built any of the big bugs yet, so didn’t know how hard they would be to set up. And they would be the ones I’d bother with.
On the topic of warriors: In a world where people are gearing up to take down primaris, how long do they last on the table? Just looking at them on paper, the struck me as beefy enough for all the nasty weapons to get their value in, but still soft enough that even basic small arms could mow them down. They are more dense then a carpet of gribblies, which has some perks, but more expensive per wound.
2 damage weapons are 'everywhere' as people want to kill primaris marines. (Not in my personal meta, but according to the web.) 3 wound warriors means a 2 damage weapon overkills them on 3 wounds. That is quite good. It is also a lot , 27, of wounds in a units that is under 10 models.
I usualy play an ork. And leviathan 6+++ really muchs up his 3 damage rockets and other weapons. Really great.
On the topic of warriors:
In a world where people are gearing up to take down primaris, how long do they last on the table? Just looking at them on paper, the struck me as beefy enough for all the nasty weapons to get their value in, but still soft enough that even basic small arms could mow them down. They are more dense then a carpet of gribblies, which has some perks, but more expensive per wound.
The ignore AP -1 and -2 adaptive physiology makes them very tanky.
Last week I played a squad of 9 in a game. I had that adaptive physiology, hive fleet Jormungandr for the cover save, a Malanthrope, and the -1 damage stratagem.
With all that it took the full firepower of three knight crusaders, and a squad of 6 locked kastellan robots to take that squad out.
I would have actually had a couple left over even, but I erred and took the malanthrope out of range when there were 4 left (dumb mistake, but it had been a long day).
Would have been much better if I'd had a chance to put catalyst on them too.
Stack enough buffs on them, and killing them with shooting becomes very difficult. They're quite a lot more vulnerable in melee though, as most of their defensive buffs don't work there.
Warriors can be good if you cater them. Warrior alpha can make them hit on 2 and 3.
Problem is they are really poor vs armoued things. The venom cannon is svingy in shots and damage and the bellcurve can swing bad the first two turns it is a disaster.
The heavy bolter shots and bone swords are reliable enough vs infatery.
I have not seen 9th edition rules enough, in 8th you hsd this trick. 2 to 3 lash whip and boneswords can be a bit of a combo. If you remove them to combat losses and do not pile in to range of your opponents models you can attack with the once who are in base to the lash whip bonesword models. Attack back. Your rurn: Now you can move and shoot. Charge if you want to.
Remember they pile in towards the closest enemy model. And that is your dead but not forgotten lash whip warrior.
Look out for dreadnought type opponents. High thoughnes with a x2 power, multi ap multi damage weapon in melee.
Warriors also unlock the infatery unit shoots x2 stratagem. (And fight twice stratagem.)
They went up? They went up??? The Scythed Hierodule was 410 yet is now 470??? Unless there's meant to be a 0 in that column there, that's just insane!!!
But with a new edition right around the corner, there is no knowing what will be good/better. 
Good luck, and welcome to the Hive Mind! 
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