I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
- Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
- Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
- Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
- Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
How are other people interpreting the Bio-metallic Cysts fleet trait? I can't look at it any other way than just stock scything talons being affected. Monstrous/massive scything talons and grasping talons are out, but it does seem like the typical GW oversight to miss defining other weapons in the same type that they did intend to receive the effect.
To be honest, it could go either way. Untill it gets clairified, I'd just look at it in the most conservative way. And only apply it to the little guys.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
True even without Genestealers. With Genestealers, your opponent is now scared of going second a lot more now too considering how much first turn GS can disrupt the average SM list.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
Adding C4E detachment has a ton of benefits in every single match up and I wouldn’t play infantry based Nids without it even if there was no TFC. The option to spend 3 CP to counter that is a boon from the jump, not a burden, but again, it’s not even required here in the first place, it’s just another OPTION you can add if feel nervous about including one of the strongest units in the dex.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
...
You aren’t charging into a midfield overwatch castle turn 1, you’re wrapping up a unit midfield or your opponent conceded the board. On top of that, as if you wouldn’t include a Lictor? How is this a weakness of Genestealers lol?
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
I did not say anything about doing this, nor would I recommend it, and I’ve advised against it in the past. A unit of Genestealers is good because it’s a cheap unit that covers so many bases and does more than it’s share of points a lot of times and if it fails, only cost around 200 pts.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
What awful advice. It’s neither a one trick pony unit, nor does this logic of Tyranids win rate mean that one specific unit is bad, this same logic could be used to say not to play any unit in the dex. Nor does the win rate even mean that the army is bad or that we should not try to use any sort of strategy. Nor is that winrate reflective of new rules. Your defeatist attitude is why you are doing poorly. Also, this entire sentence runs contrary to your entire point that the reason we shouldn’t run GS is because of the SM matchup - if what you say is true and we have no hope vs Marines in general, why would we not take a unit that is one of our dexes best in almost every single other match up and also in the SM match up anyway in 50% of games, or more if you take a GSC ally? The only delusion here is thinking made up things like Stealers are a one trick pony or they are the reason for Tyranids win rate or that they are unplayable in this meta.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'll just sum up the upcoming chain of posts in a few sentences: Most people agree Kraken stealers are still great, except for KurtAngle2 who seems to generally say that they aren't because 'marines shoot good', and when someone points out that Kraken stealers love infiltrators, and that you can also build to Vect the Tremor Shells if you are really worried, he doesn't respond until next time he pops up saying it somewhere else again.
They are still really good, and Behemoth is gimmicky at best imo. But there's more than one way to do things, and if you want to use Behemoth DS'ing Genestealers, you certainly can make it work. But don't let someone fool you into thinking it's the only way, I don't even think it's a very good way honestly in context of the army, and misses the point of Stealers and Nid keyword in general. And ironically, has a hard time in this meta too with all the DS blocking and screening.
- Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
- Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
- Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
- Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
You can put the GS in the infestation nodes right on edge of depoyment and pop them T2 with lictor. Or better yet put lictor on board with GS t1, take kraken, advance him. Cast onslaught on him so he can charge. GS already have advance and charge, swarmy there for extra movement if needed. Or if no lictor send in Swarmlord first with catalyst and then after he gets in use Hunters Drive for 1 CP to bolster the charge roll for the Genestealers.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Hoping to get 1st turn not to ge shot to pieces.
True even without Genestealers. With Genestealers, your opponent is now scared of going second a lot more now too considering how much first turn GS can disrupt the average SM list.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Add C4AE and 3 CPs not to get ALSO rekt by Thunderfire Cannon.
Adding C4E detachment has a ton of benefits in every single match up and I wouldn’t play infantry based Nids without it even if there was no TFC. The option to spend 3 CP to counter that is a boon from the jump, not a burden, but again, it’s not even required here in the first place, it’s just another OPTION you can add if feel nervous about including one of the strongest units in the dex.
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Lictor (?) To prevent overwatch but somebody's forgetting that Lictor comes turn 2 whilst Genestealers have to do start the massacre as soon as possibile due to inherent fragility.
...
You aren’t charging into a midfield overwatch castle turn 1, you’re wrapping up a unit midfield or your opponent conceded the board. On top of that, as if you wouldn’t include a Lictor? How is this a weakness of Genestealers lol?
KurtAngle2 wrote: - Spend 250 additional points to get a Swarmlord for the slingshot that might also get shot to pieces.
I did not say anything about doing this, nor would I recommend it, and I’ve advised against it in the past. A unit of Genestealers is good because it’s a cheap unit that covers so many bases and does more than it’s share of points a lot of times and if it fails, only cost around 200 pts.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You're delusional if you think that one trick ponies are working in the hardest meta possible for forces of the hive mind (be TYR of GSC), enjoy 30% winrate with your Nids
What awful advice. It’s neither a one trick pony unit, nor does this logic of Tyranids win rate mean that one specific unit is bad, this same logic could be used to say not to play any unit in the dex. Nor does the win rate even mean that the army is bad or that we should not try to use any sort of strategy. Nor is that winrate reflective of new rules. Your defeatist attitude is why you are doing poorly. Also, this entire sentence runs contrary to your entire point that the reason we shouldn’t run GS is because of the SM matchup - if what you say is true and we have no hope vs Marines in general, why would we not take a unit that is one of our dexes best in almost every single other match up and also in the SM match up anyway in 50% of games, or more if you take a GSC ally? The only delusion here is thinking made up things like Stealers are a one trick pony or they are the reason for Tyranids win rate or that they are unplayable in this meta.
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
You can put the GS in the infestation nodes right on edge of depoyment and pop them T2 with lictor. Or better yet put lictor on board with GS t1, take kraken, advance him. Cast onslaught on him so he can charge. GS already have advance and charge, swarmy there for extra movement if needed. Or if no lictor send in Swarmlord first with catalyst and then after he gets in use Hunters Drive for 1 CP to bolster the charge roll for the Genestealers.
You can't and the latter (Swarmlord slingshotting himself T1 into the enemy deployment what a fething bad idea) doesn't prevent any overwatch which was the reason of half the discussion above.
"You cannot use this Stratagem to affect a unit of
reinforcements being set up by the Genestealer’s
Infestation ability, or that are added to your army due to
a unit’s ability.’"
godardc wrote: Yes he was playing Chronos but didn't explain why he took the broodlord though. He told they the -1 to be wounded stratagem and -1 to be hit together were quite strong
My best guess is to provide a counter-assault option. Broodlords still hit fairly hard while being small enough to hide out of sight with character protection. Plus they offer an extra deny attempt and can store extra powers for the Neurothrope to access if needed with the new stratagem.
The one thing I'd be a bit concerned with running that list is how it has so little redundancy... It looks like it would be relatively easy to pick off the supporting elements and shut down the various tricks the list has. On the other hand, the Warriors and Exocrines should be very efficient under Kronos, so maybe they can pull through regardless.
Still, I'd love to give that list a go and see how it performs. I already have seen Exocrines tear up Iron Hands in a shoot-out so it looks promising if nothing else. I need to do an inventory of my Warriors...
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
Yes, Termagants are our cheapest PPM on infantry. Them getting shot is better for us point for point than any other units in our dex, that’s their role. That doesn’t mean we take a list of pure Termagants. You need teeth, speed and board control. A strong list has more options than just Termagants.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
“don’t take a competitive option because it’s necessary!” Great argument.
The 3CP Vect stratagem is amazing addition to any army. To disagree with this is just completely antithetical to how this game works and is played at any sort of level. Don’t take it if you don’t want but Genestealers are great and this is an amazing option to cover the perceived counter that apparently completely drives them out of the meta.
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
...
Hi, I’m 8th edition. Let me introduce you to my friend the bolt gun!
Basically every army in the game needs to move into the field in 8th or lose. Even competitive Tau is pushing their entire army into the middle of the field nowadays. Everything you say strikes me as heavy theorycraft from someone who has spent too munch time comparing data sheets and too little time actually playing at a decent level, but this is just the cherry on top. If they can’t deploy their Infiltrators or Warsuits anywhere near your army for FEAR of the unit of Stealers, than they’ve already made their points back in that match up before ever rolling a dice.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. Especially from someone who recommended Behemoth Genestealers who are literally just 450 pts for a worse Acolyte squad. Kraken Stealers have a different method of approach, that isn’t blocked by DA blockers or intercept stratagem or even Vect if you play smart. Acolytes do not invalidate Kraken stealers at all, if they make anything redundant it’s your suggestion of Behemoth Stealers.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
Its incredible that you can say so much and still be so consistently wrong. But above all, none of what you said is a fact. It’s your opinion, and it’s a sketchy one at best that got you so heavily downvoted last time you posted it on Reddit that you had to delete the comments to save karma, so let’s not mislabel opinions as facts shall we.
1) Genestealers are paying marine levels of price for a horrible tankyness. Having gants or equivalent GSC infantry shot is much better than having Genestealers munched for twice or more the points.
Yes, Termagants are our cheapest PPM on infantry. Them getting shot is better for us point for point than any other units in our dex, that’s their role. That doesn’t mean we take a list of pure Termagants. You need teeth, speed and board control. A strong list has more options than just Termagants.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2) In your one trick pony list the "Counterspell" stratagem is not a boon, instead it is outright mandatory for any RESEMBLANCE of competitiveness (which is already low when you're playing Tyrs).
“don’t take a competitive option because it’s necessary!” Great argument.
The 3CP Vect stratagem is amazing addition to any army. To disagree with this is just completely antithetical to how this game works and is played at any sort of level. Don’t take it if you don’t want but Genestealers are great and this is an amazing option to cover the perceived counter that apparently completely drives them out of the meta.
3) "you’re wrapping up a unit midfield" what kind of joke tactics is your opponent doing? Is he really trying to give you a bridge to connect your genestealers to the rest of his army unscathered?
...
Hi, I’m 8th edition. Let me introduce you to my friend the bolt gun!
Basically every army in the game needs to move into the field in 8th or lose. Even competitive Tau is pushing their entire army into the middle of the field nowadays. Everything you say strikes me as heavy theorycraft from someone who has spent too munch time comparing data sheets and too little time actually playing at a decent level, but this is just the cherry on top. If they can’t deploy their Infiltrators or Warsuits anywhere near your army for FEAR of the unit of Stealers, than they’ve already made their points back in that match up before ever rolling a dice.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) For the price of Genestealers I can get an Acolyte bomb in deep strike that has to deal with Overwatch and Intercept stratagem at best with many sinergies. Genestealers are overpriced after last CA, realize that.
I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. Especially from someone who recommended Behemoth Genestealers who are literally just 450 pts for a worse Acolyte squad. Kraken Stealers have a different method of approach, that isn’t blocked by DA blockers or intercept stratagem or even Vect if you play smart. Acolytes do not invalidate Kraken stealers at all, if they make anything redundant it’s your suggestion of Behemoth Stealers.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 5) Genestealer slingshot IS a ONE TRICK PONY that is slowly fading away (if not already disappeared from all but tournament play), there's no denying to that. All your chances are put into your enemy's hands and no savvy commander would like to have his opponent dictate the flow of game, especially when at least half of your list is comprised of predictable unit and tactics that doesn't really leave much room for improving. There's no defeatist attutide to be spoken of, just mere stats, facts and power creep that killed a codex that somehow started decent (and the stratagems even today are GOOD but the units themselves aren't) and ended being one of the worst.
Its incredible that you can say so much and still be so consistently wrong. But above all, none of what you said is a fact. It’s your opinion, and it’s a sketchy one at best that got you so heavily downvoted last time you posted it on Reddit that you had to delete the comments to save karma, so let’s not mislabel opinions as facts shall we.
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
2) It seems you can't read what I said, too bad you didn't understand anything.
3) Hello I am a 2019 Space Marine player. I got the best and most mobility/deployment options of ANY CODEX and unless you make use of broken rules like shield drones (nice to mention T'au without even telling of the ONLY WAY to play them, aka 40+ drones to have your Riptides go midfield) you're gonna get your ass fethed up by Centurions/Invictors which are 2 times more efficient on any damage/tankyness basis. I'd gladly trade (in case of Centurions it isn't even happening, you're gonna get fethed by overwatch and returning fire) my units to outright delete all your threat without you being capable of doing anything worthy of a counter. Welcome to 8.5 Edition my friend!
4) I never recommended Behemoth Genestealers (again another sign that you CAN'T READ AT ALL): I just said that Behemoth *something* is the way, not that you should be playing horrible Behemoth Genestealers that are just a pathetic version of Acolytes; that doesn't change the fact that Kraken stealers are nowadays bad and you should feel bad for mentioning them in the new competitive scenario.
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
Eh, the two are about the same as far as cannon fodder and chaff clearing are concerned. Durability-wise it is a wash. Termagants gained the ability to have a 6++ from Blood of Baal and neither unit are likely to get their armor saves in the current meta (at best Neophytes will get a 6+ while in cover, at which point the invul is the same). Both are T3 so both are being wounded at the same rate, both have access to FNP conditionally, and both have access to moral immunity so they can afford to take larger units if desired.
For shooting, I'd actually put Termagant shooting as slightly better than Neophyte shooting for the purposes of anti-infantry. Termagants get S4 on 2/3rds of their main guns while Neophytes are stuck with S3 (barring shotguns at 6'') which makes a huge difference against MEQ troops. Devourers are also much nastier than the special/heavy anti-infantry options available to Neophytes by virtue of being able to be taken in quantities for sheer volume of fire. The main advantage Neophytes have in shooting is that they can take special and heavy weapons to diversify their role somewhat, as well as deep strike innately via Cult Ambush (reserve "slots" permitting).
I do agree Neophytes have better force multipliers overall, but Termagants aren't without those of their own. Scorch Bugs are quite good (+1 to wound, so wounding Marines on a 3+) and the built-in brood bonus of rerolling 1's to wound is nice to have. Also the -1 to hit from a Venomthrope or Malanthrope is a big defensive benefit that Neophytes don't have access to and is excellent thing to have for a screening unit (see Atlan Jackals).
I agree with Kurtangle, wouldn't take Stealers in the current meta.
Gunzilla is decent, more or less unchanged post-BoB and there's Gant carpet for the masochists.
1) And yet termagants do nothing except die whilst Cog Neophytes provide strong shooting, better synergies AND tankyness.
You were the one saying take Termagants over Genestealers, not me. Try to keep up. What you just said is in no way an answer to my statement.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 3) Hello I am a 2019 Space Marine player. I got the best and most mobility/deployment options of ANY CODEX and unless you make use of broken rules like shield drones (nice to mention T'au without even telling of the ONLY WAY to play them, aka 40+ drones to have your Riptides go midfield) you're gonna get your ass fethed up by Centurions/Invictors which are 2 times more efficient on any damage/tankyness basis. I'd gladly trade (in case of Centurions it isn't even happening, you're gonna get fethed by overwatch and returning fire) my units to outright delete all your threat without you being capable of doing anything worthy of a counter. Welcome to 8.5 Edition my friend!
What are you even trying to say? If they move Cents and Invictors up the field you have opportunities for wraps, if they don't you can't whine about them crushing you. You can't have it both ways. Keyword Nids has like 3 ways of denying Overwatch now. You have options, you just aren't good at using them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4) I never recommended Behemoth Genestealers (again another sign that you CAN'T READ AT ALL): I just said that Behemoth *something* is the way, not that you should be playing horrible Behemoth Genestealers that are just a pathetic version of Acolytes
It sure read like you were suggesting Behemoth Genestealers - if not, I have to ask what exactly were you suggesting? Do you even know? It doesn't sound like it.
KurtAngle2 wrote: that doesn't change the fact that Kraken stealers are nowadays bad and you should feel bad for mentioning them in the new competitive scenario.
You're really bad at distinguishing 'fact' from 'extremely low level opinion' but that's okay.
So get this, horms can be useful now, but I wouldn't build a list around them. If you are planning on using them, i'd go Leviathan with the -2, or -1 and consolidate in any direction.
You can bring them up with a Trygon/Prime on turn 2 with a lictor for rerolling 8" charges (decent odds).
Ultimate tarpit is definitely gargs now though. You can get them stuck into combat and wrap a unit with them then make them -3 to hit in combat by the wrapped unit.
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
grouchoben wrote: Hey everyone, I've long eyed up horde-nid as a new army option, and Hormagaunts in particular. I know, I know.
But does the new custom hive ruleset make them viable?
You can tech them to have -2AP on their attacks, which transforms the unit's role pretty drastically, or go -1ap and 6++.
So yeah, assuming you go bleeding edge with the rest of your army (Kronos hiveguards et al), could you see a list with 90 hormagaunts doing good work?
Too soon to say for sure. but for non tourney? Sure. I think you could build a "all scythes" list and have fun, just make sure to have enough Synapse to keep every one fearless....
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
I think this list is great too. The way a list like this plays in general is just the move MC's up under the Malanthrope bubble, cover the wings and spread around the board with fast advancing Termagants in front of Dakkafexes, while the ball of MC's advances under the the Malanthrope bubble. They will likely be in range of SOMETHING after a turn, but definitely in your opponent's face by turn 2 unless it encounters significant speedbumps, which should be ideal anyway to such a close range high volume shooting army.
Run forward and set up out front of your opponent's gunline. It's easier to play vs guys who can't threaten your Hierodule in melee. You want to be casting Horror on whatever in range could do the most damage to him. You want to end your turn with the Hierodule either beneath the Malanthrope bubble, or in combat with something that can't fall back. But not being able to lock something down doesn't mean you can't use him earlier though - Resonance Barb on the Onslaught isn't a typo, it's a really reliable cast with +1 to cast, re-roll natural 1s, so you can advance the Hierodule up in their face with flat 18", charge, kill something, maybe even fight twice, or get a flamer off if you see the opportunity, and the use Overrun stratagem to fall all the way back to the Malanthrope. If your opponent is playing a castle or doesn't have any one great target for The Horror, you can also consider the new Kraken power to make those charges go even further, as you may not be able to get any value off the Horror until like turn 3 if at all. For ease during gameplay, the rough math on Hierodule's 3D6 drop lowest is basically a regular charge +2", with a cap of 12" obviously. With re-rolls from Kraken you safely risk 9" charges or more. So just try to dance him in and out of combat until you can safely get stuck in.
The Toxicrene is included in the list because it's about the same price and similar damage at times as a Dakkafex, but is chosen instead of one because there is room for another bug under the Malanthrope umbrella (Carnifexes use their own spores and spread out a little) and if your opponent is forced to try deal with everything else first, a Toxicrene can be a punishing thing to have to deal with charging you. And if they set-up anything midfield, well, if you get a Toxicrene in range of that you can potentially charge that thing with all your bugs and use it as a lighthouse for a turn in the right circumstances. Don't see it as something you rely on, but still keep one there just for that coverage on the games where they can't safely deal with a bunch of high T -1 to hit wounds.
The list has plenty of CP, you probably want to be using both Metabolic Overdrive and Opportunistic Advance both most turns on something, even if it's just Termagants. Use the move and shoot stratagem on the Exocrine just to keep him in range of the Malanthrope without penalty. Saving CP for double fighting Hierodule and Overrun is your impact strats. A single biovore is just low investment tech, but can be used to severely limit the movement of a Knight, which is important when you're playing a Hierodule, you can block a melee Knight or at least make them go a long way and miss their change. Move and shoot him for 5+ to hit and likely drop a Spore, double shoot him if it saves your Hierodule getting charged by a Knight, that's a game altering play for just 40 points.
Against Iron Hands, or SM in general, a couple of things - if they have Eliminators with a Phobos captain, your Malanthrope goes down by their second turn without even requiring LoS - look at terrain and try to deploy and advance in a way that will force them to sit somewhere that your Hierodule will be able to reach out and touch. If not, consider picking up the Kraken relic on him, maybe using your Catalyst cast on him instead of the Hierodule (don't do this lightly), and remembering that while Venomthropes are infantry, the Malanthrope IS an MC for the purpose of Rapid Regeneration, and a full Eliminator set-up only has a 3/4 chance or so to kill him by turn 2 - even an extra wound or two will make those chances shrink phenomenally, and even that 1 extra shooting phase of defensive bubble can basically make all the difference. If they roll hot on the first shooting phase and leave him on like 2 wounds don't bother though obviously. But if you can use that extra turn to kill the Eliminators, 1 wound on a Malanthrope is basically full wounds since nothing else (except greed!) can touch him really. And if this happened you've basically invalidated his entire points investment on that one there. On the topic of Malanthrope greed - getting re-roll 1s army wide is good, but -1 to hit to is more important especially when a good portion of your damage is auto-hitting with flamers anyway, so only go for that when it's safe.
Iron Hands specifically, use the Lictor to counter the Overwatch when their castle is at it's strongest - probably the first time you charge with the Hierodule. Don't overthink it, take the opportunity to lower some damage while it's on the available, and remember that Kraken means that if for some reason the Lictor survives that combat till the next turn, or if they put max dice on your actual threats since you're probably bearing down hard at this point, then you can fallback to into terrain (DOESN'T have to be cover, just as long as you're on a terrain feature) and then use the stratagem to do it again. May not happen all the time but whatever it's enough to be relevant.
Vs Iron Hands, the Dakkafexes want to get in melee with AP5 maws and a Bonemace. If you can lock stuff down with a Toxicrene, or just base up multiple things, you can safely fallback and charge just to add on those Mortal Wound dice and the +1 to hit.
If they are running Repulsors just try to get a Hierodule in combat with one, fight twice, and Overrun back to safety. Do this twice and you are doing well. If they have a bunch of Flyers I dunno. Try to position the Tyrannofex so that the flyers will land in range I guess, and protect the Exocrine the most, and remember to add 1 damage to his shooting (just in general a good thing to do anyway). Chase them down on your side of the board with Hierodule flamer, and try to use your big base sizes to limit their movement. Focus less on your Malanthrope here since they will be coming to you, but again keep the Exocrine in range of it most likely and try hold the objectives with MC's, save your troops for the ones that need to be contested by ObSec.
Using a very similar list, I went undefeated in an event recently that had multiple SM lists in. My path took me through four Power Armour lists and one Knight + Ad Mech gunline. And this was pre-Blood of Baal stuff, which makes a MASSIVE difference in our favor. I have full confidence in this list to perform, if you as a general are up to it. I also think infantry Nids is still equally as good on paper, but its just a meta call at the moment because boltstorm is so common that you may just get shredded off the table in too many matchups.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something. Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays. And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
I would love to play a full carnifex army with some kronos hive gaurd but that -1 to hit means almost nothing these days. I would loose at least 3 carnifex each turn and I could never beat that amount of kill points.
I think with 'baal' the kronos hive guard is the big winner. Take two full units with impaler and give them 'Adaptive physiology' upgrades to make them tougher (ignore -1/-2 AP or +1 extra coversave..) and cast the kronos psychic power for extra hits on a 6. That unit could also shoot twice with stratagem.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
shogun wrote: I think with 'baal' the kronos hive guard is the big winner. Take two full units with impaler and give them 'Adaptive physiology' upgrades to make them tougher (ignore -1/-2 AP or +1 extra coversave..) and cast the kronos psychic power for extra hits on a 6. That unit could also shoot twice with stratagem.
Kronos is another big winner for sure. But it's a different option, and struggles more to screen out a dedicated gunline these days
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
Toxicrene does nothing first two turns and almost nothing when it actually hits the enemies front line. Tyrannofex does nothing first two turns and only start to be effective if it can stay still and shoot twice. And even then it brings no armor penetration. And owning the board means nothing if you cannot take the enemies objectives and keep losing units as a tyranid punching bag.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
Ah 'sarcasm mode' I love that one. I'am very good at that one myself. ... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline. And the also never got any ruins in the way for some reason. If that heirodule would ever hit the enemies line then that opponent got a very bad army or he or she want's it to happen or simply doesn't care. That hierodule dies first with 400+ points down the drain because of the big bull's eye on his face. Or the enemy would just trow some scouts in his face and kill it next turn. Or simply fly away with storm talons/repulsors and keep shooting. I believe thunder fire cannon can shoot twice at both tyrannofexes and slow them both down with the ' half movement and half advance' stratagem. Thats why almost each and every space marine army brings at least one.
Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst. At least the can shoot and deal psychic power mortal wounds and are much tougher to bring down with the 4+ inv save. With ' baal' stratagems the could even improve the assault range after dropping in and pack a decent punch in close combat. I also like to drop in a single magus for an extra -1 to hit psychic power. I'am not saying that hive tyrants are in a great place nowadays but they're even better than a useless hierodule.
I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'am sorry but I don't see how. And thats coming from I guy that really want's to play a nidzilla list. You cannot afford to move 3 turns forward with that kind of low damage output and expect to have anything left to actually do something.
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
Toxicrene does nothing first two turns and almost nothing when it actually hits the enemies front line. Tyrannofex does nothing first two turns and only start to be effective if it can stay still and shoot twice. And even then it brings no armor penetration. And owning the board means nothing if you cannot take the enemies objectives and keep losing units as a tyranid punching bag.
shogun wrote: Even when the lower the point cost, the toxicrene, tyrannofex etc.. still suck. No way the can go toe to toe with space marines nowadays.
Compelling argument! I'll respond with an equally compelling one of my own, they don't suck at all, and they can go toe to toe with Space Marines!
But seriously. If the argument is 'Space Marines' the answer might as well be, go buy Space Marines. Tyranids aren't a broken dex like them. That doesn't mean 100 odd MC wounds with -1 to hit goes down any easier than anything else we have, it's one of the best options for us right now BECAUSE of Space Marines.
Ah 'sarcasm mode' I love that one. I'am very good at that one myself. ... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline. And the also never got any ruins in the way for some reason. If that heirodule would ever hit the enemies line then that opponent got a very bad army or he or she want's it to happen or simply doesn't care. That hierodule dies first with 400+ points down the drain because of the big bull's eye on his face. Or the enemy would just trow some scouts in his face and kill it next turn. Or simply fly away with storm talons/repulsors and keep shooting. I believe thunder fire cannon can shoot twice at both tyrannofexes and slow them both down with the ' half movement and half advance' stratagem. Thats why almost each and every space marine army brings at least one.
Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst. At least the can shoot and deal psychic power mortal wounds and are much tougher to bring down with the 4+ inv save. With ' baal' stratagems the could even improve the assault range after dropping in and pack a decent punch in close combat. I also like to drop in a single magus for an extra -1 to hit psychic power. I'am not saying that hive tyrants are in a great place nowadays but they're even better than a useless hierodule.
I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
Yeah, Nidzilla is still a joke whilst having 1 or 2 exocrines with Dermic Symbiosis makes them better tank commanders at a 155 pts price tag (aka go for selected shooting monsters and don't bother with anything else).
The most "competitive" thing Nids have atm is imo 1x Kronos Battalion and 2x GSC Battalions (and even that got a counter in new marines but it's the best way to have a chance to win something at least).
The entire list is Kraken. It doesn't take 3 turns. Everything except Toxicrene and Tyrannofexes can be hitting from the first turn, definitely the second, or you just own the board.
In a competitive setting most games are decided at the start of turn 3. Why? Because most armies deal enough damage to cripple an enemies army enough to take the win from that point on.
It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. I'd repost and bold the relevant bits, but it's literally the entire part you quoted is explaining that the list is doing plenty by turn 2...
But secondly you're completely wrong anyway. Listen to the top players talk about the game. Try Art of War podcast. Almost every single guest says the same thing - they play for the long game. At higher levels of the game, all the way to turn 6 is relevant. But again, it's not like this army is doing nothing in the first turns anyway, but you ignored all that.
Your logic says Old One Eye is one of the worst units in the dex. Or that the nerf to Return to Shadows didn't matter at all. I don't think very many good players would agree with that.
shogun wrote: Instead of a heirodule you could pick two hive tyrants and drop them at the second turn within malanthrope range (that moved and advanced first turn). Give one tyrant the -1 to hit relic (cam..skin) and give the other catalyst.
Bah god that's an awful suggestion. So no first turn casting off your Flyrants, and by the end of turn 2 they've done less than a Dakkafex. No catalyst up for the first turn, and now they are down on the field only after you've already lost your first monster, making them an even bigger target. This is beyond low level, to the point that I know you've never actually tried this, you are blatantly just trying to use theoryhammer to counter my experience, as I've seen others recognise of you of in the past.
shogun wrote: And why in the hell would you field a hierodule? For almost the same amount of points you could drop in two flying hive tyrants with a 4+ inv save.
Because 8x S10, D6 attacks. Autohitting flamer. Attacking twice. I don't have two Catalysts. I don't have two Onslaughts. I don't have two Overruns. I don't have two Rapid Regenerations. I have more reliable casters that cast all game. I want T8 and S10, not T7 and S6. I have Dermic Symbiosis for 4++ AND ignoring bracketing instead of paying for that in points and getting no real value off it.
The real question is why would I run Flyrants? They don't have anywhere near the same impact as a Hierodule, and are probably the most overrated unit in the dex imo. They are a good way to get your casters shot off the field within 2 turns, and if you are taking other casters next to them they are even less worth their points, they have never once made them back for me imo. They are a glass cannon unit in a list built for resilience, maybe in a different style build, but not in this one.
Why do players that desperately want to get in close combat always assume the can get there in turn 2? It always astonishes me. For some reason the never play ' hammer and anvil' or diagonally or against an enemy that doesn't deploy 24 inch away at the frontline.
.....
what the...
what part of what I said includes anything about hitting combat turn 2? No, seriously? Are you even reading what's being said? I left the part YOU quoted of mine with this response to it. Can you please highlight where it says anything about assuming I'll be guaranteed in combat with anything I want by turn 2? I've never made this assumption or even implied it - in fact I literally said the opposite earlier when discussing the Toxicrene, in another post I'm sure you didn't read. It feels like you just wanted to go on this rant.
The only thing I talked about was getting mileage off is Hierodule - it travels 18", and charges 3(-1)D6 rerollable. By turn 2, that's a reliable 45" threat range. And even then he may not get to every game, I never said it would, just that I feel Flyrants are unreliable for having impact and put too many eggs in one basket. But that's a whole lot different to someone assuming you are guaranteed run a Haruspex naked into combat by turn 2 or whatever this nonsense rant is about.
Hierodule trys to FORCE you to deploy behind the line. This is great for you. Just like what was said earlier, every army has to come into the board in 8th. Slowing that down a turn is a big win for a resilient army. Don't just name a faction - since you are saying the problem is the options in the meta right now, please show me a list that is doing well competitively right now that can deploy on the back of their board, sit there for the first two turns, and still win on scoring? Show me a list that doesn't have a ton of points invested into taking the board.
If the Hierodule goes down first it's done its job, with 4++, -1 to hit, and Catalyst cast on it, it multiplies these bonuses larger than any other models thanks to it's double size wound pool. It isn't really any worse a target than anything else in Nidzilla. He's a 400 point model. The same amount of S9 AP4 firepower (Repulsors) it takes to kill him, kills like 950 points of Dakkafexes. Against non Repulsor enemies firing S8 or S7 (Suppressors), like that number goes up significantly. Points per wound, he really isn't a poor investment at all.
shogun wrote: I don't care if you got great results with this kind of army in a casual setting but when you make the claim: 'I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta' then I got to respond and call BS. And remember, this is from a guy that really likes to field a nidzilla list.
"that thing you did successfully? Completely impossible. It will never work."
I guess you missed the part where I talked about my tournament experience with it, but that's fine. Any response I give you're just going to respond "but if you're doing well with your Tyranid list you MUST be in a casual meta", which is also fine, because it's circular logic that holds absolutely no weight. Contrary to your opinion mate, a lot of SM lists are actually quite aggressive. MAYBE Iron Hands, not SM as a whole, are the match-up that will be playing this way the most, but in my experience building like this is actually our best shot vs Iron Hands - but if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and post your better list for beating SM.
I feel like some of you have just decided balance is 100% responsible for your losses, and that's why you get so vicious when someone speaks about something else that has been working out a bit better for them. This isn't a personal attack, my success doesn't mean you're a bad player, but maybe consider trying some new things if your old traps aren't working, and looking at units closer than the datasheet - there is no substitute for in-game experience.
hmmm I think you're right Nitro Zeus, The best way to handle Iron hands is to move a hierodule mid field and move some others monstrous creatures behind him. I mean by god! You shoot with one exocrine and a few smites so that first turn is in the bank! Meanwhile there is no way that iron hand player can remove a hierodule with its full army or simply block it. I mean what can a few repulsors, eliminators, stormtalons do? And that second turn will be even better! Because then you got two tyrannofexes shooting so those four single primaris marines are toast! Thank god that we only see space marines because then we don't have to find out how this kind of army would do against (chaos) knights, daemons, aeldari etc..
I was sceptical at first but it is nice to see how nidzilla is going to change the meta! What a glorious day!
Instead of being able to respond to the argument that my post attempts to explain and convey as clearly as I am capable of, including the math behind it, the ranges, and the examples that run directly contrary to your position, this nonsense reply was all you were able to do. Your post is a textbook example of this fallacy, that has no actual bearing on any argument that I made, because that would take considerate thought beyond 'reeee he said my bugs aren't terrible'. I knew you wouldn't be able to post a better list that doesn't have any of the holes you tried to poke in mine, so you devolved it to this instead.
You could literally replace the word 'Hierodule' with your suggestion of 'Flyrant' and I could make the exact same post back to you concerning everything you've said.
shogun wrote: (You see... I can also do ' sarcasm mode'..
And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Damage output: exocrine does maybe a few wounds on a big target or a dead small target, but thats it.
Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
I would like to field a nidzilla list and with the new 'Baal' rules I was thinking about this:
I love to play something like this but space marines would just take out at least 3 carnifexes a turn so it would not work. It cannot compete with knights, aeldari flyers, tau etc.. No nidzilla can.
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Why can I hit 18" smites off a unit that has to sit behind other units and has 5" movespeed, but I can't hit with the Dakka from Carnifex and Tyrannofex with the same range guns, with 7" move, that can safely be at the front of the pack, and in some cases advance an shoot? If I can hit those Smites, why can't I charge with a Hierodule who can move 18", and safely charge 9+"?
There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer.
shogun wrote: Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
The point would be that as it stands, one of us has provided the numbers for some math (me) where I calculated that the same amount of firepower it takes to kill a Hierodule, leaves you with a single Carnifex on the table turn 2. Until you show something contrary it doesn't look very good for you. With smart target priority and using some weaker units to finish off the Fexes that survive the math, your beautifully hilarious list of Custom Hive Fleet Carnifexes + Mawlocs (lol), is left with a single Venom Cannon on the field and two Mawlocs in reserve. After weathering the same amount of firepower, mine is left with everything but the Hierodule. I wasn't expecting much thought to be put into your response, but the state of that one just says everything we need to know about where you're coming from really. Even if you go first, your entire army shooting Venom Cannons at a Iron Hands Repulsor that will never be in range in the first place, still cannot kill a single one, even completely unbuffed by any sort of stratagems or aura. Nothing about that list has an easier time vs SM, it does everything worse. You're trying to take them on in a shooting battle with units that have zero chance of winning it, and you absolutely flat out fold to Scars, assault Cents, smash captains, BA, or anything else in the meta with a melee presence because the only thing in your list even resembling a screen is a single squad of Termagants. Your list does nothing to stop him taking all the objectives midfield either, it does nothing by moving up close, and cannot move closer anyway without a hit penalty that you desperately do not need, to try take those objectives. And since you aren't taking the objectives, they CAN sit on the other side of the board without issue if they choose to. That's not a list you wrote I hope? It reads like it was written by a brand new player who has come across from MTG, and has no experience at all with how this game works beyond datasheets. That list cannot win at 40k, I couldn't think of a way to guarantee a loss easier than that. Even when we have seen Carnifex spam meet mild success at one or two events year and a half ago, they realised you needed a board presence to make it work. That list is flawed to the core and it shouldn't take much experience to recognise that.
shogun wrote: I love to play something like this but space marines would just take out at least 3 carnifexes a turn so it would not work. It cannot compete with knights, aeldari flyers, tau etc.. No nidzilla can.
Sweet. Well, my take on Nidzilla is leaps and bounds ahead of your competitively so maybe that explains why I've been able to do what your theory hammer has decreed impossible. But, I'm still waiting for the example of the list that does better than my one vs Space Marines. Doesn't have to be Nidzilla, in fact I expected it wouldn't be since that was your complaint? Please put a bit more thought into the next one
Nitro Zeus wrote: And you're the only one doing that. I'm doing 'write-a-rational-explanation-for-my-perspective mode', do you want to try that one out?
It is actually very simple:
First turn: You move hierodule forward and cast catalyst on him. You shoot with the exocrine and maybe cast a few smites but that's on the closest enemy target so enemies choice.
Why can I hit 18" smites off a unit that has to sit behind other units and has 5" movespeed, but I can't hit with the Dakka from Carnifex and Tyrannofex with the same range guns, with 7" move, that can safely be at the front of the pack, and in some cases advance an shoot? If I can hit those Smites, why can't I charge with a Hierodule who can move 18", and safely charge 9+"?
There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer.
Because the neurothropes actually do some damage and I don't even count the rest because the damage output is so low. And like I said; if the hierodule can charge first turn then the enemy wants it to do that.
shogun wrote: Enemy first turn: kills the hierodule. After that you got a few monstrous creatures that are not good at shooting, and not good in close combat and not that fast in a game that relies a lot on the damage output in the first two turns. You get picked apart. I can give you the math but it is like a Jedi fighting a paraplegic, so whats the point?
The point would be that as it stands, one of us has provided the numbers for some math (me) where I calculated that the same amount of firepower it takes to kill a Hierodule, leaves you with a single Carnifex on the table turn 2. Until you show something contrary it doesn't look very good for you. With smart target priority and using some weaker units to finish off the Fexes that survive the math, your beautifully hilarious list of Custom Hive Fleet Carnifexes + Mawlocs (lol), is left with a single Venom Cannon on the field and two Mawlocs in reserve. After weathering the same amount of firepower, mine is left with everything but the Hierodule. I wasn't expecting much thought to be put into your response, but the state of that one just says everything we need to know about where you're coming from really. Even if you go first, your entire army shooting Venom Cannons at a Iron Hands Repulsor that will never be in range in the first place, still cannot kill a single one, even completely unbuffed by any sort of stratagems or aura. Nothing about that list has an easier time vs SM, it does everything worse. You're trying to take them on in a shooting battle with units that have zero chance of winning it, and you absolutely flat out fold to Scars, assault Cents, smash captains, BA, or anything else in the meta with a melee presence because the only thing in your list even resembling a screen is a single squad of Termagants. Your list does nothing to stop him taking all the objectives midfield either, it does nothing by moving up close, and cannot move closer anyway without a hit penalty that you desperately do not need, to try take those objectives. And since you aren't taking the objectives, they CAN sit on the other side of the board without issue if they choose to. That's not a list you wrote I hope? It reads like it was written by a brand new player who has come across from MTG, and has no experience at all with how this game works beyond datasheets. That list cannot win at 40k, I couldn't think of a way to guarantee a loss easier than that. Even when we have seen Carnifex spam meet mild success at one or two events year and a half ago, they realised you needed a board presence to make it work. That list is flawed to the core and it shouldn't take much experience to recognise that.
You just attack my fun nidzilla list but I already wrote that this list cannot win because no nidzilla can. For some reasons my 36 inch heavy venom cannons are useless against repulsors because the wouldn't be within range, and the answer to that is bringing 18 inch tyrannofexes. To use your words: 'There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer'
Meanwhile there is no math that explains why the heirodule would survive after turn 1 and how the rest of your low damage nidzilla is going to win the day after that. Let's pick a few armies from the last tournament that I went to:
Aeldari: 3 fire prisms, 2x nightspinner, 1x crimson hunter, 3x crimson hunter exarch, 3x razorwing jetfighter..., and don't forget farseer with doom.
Chaos: 3x lord discordant, chaos knight with 2 thermal cannons, 3x Hellforged contemptor 2 butcher cannons, 2x Hellforged deredeo dreadnought butcher cannon array/twin bolter
Chaos: Cerastus knight, 2x war dog moirax with lightning, 3x knight despoiler with 2x thermal cannon.
space marine: 3 repulsors, 3 stormtalon gunships, thunderfire cannon etc...
Daemons: plague bearers (lots), deep strike bloodletters with banner, tzeentch psykers, daemon prince with khorne axe and mortarion with warp time.
First turn: dead heirodule,
Second turn: 50% nidzilla army dead,
Third turn: could just as well give up.
shogun wrote: Well, my take on Nidzilla is leaps and bounds ahead of your competitively so maybe that explains why I've been able to do what your theory hammer has decreed impossible.
I don't have to make a better nidzilla list, and I don't want to because the suck. Show my some great battle reports with great victories against great (space marine) armies and I will give you the credit you deserve and shut up. But before that happens (and it won't) stop making the claim that nidzilla is going to be the next big thing' because you might make some tyranid players believe that this is true and the will be really disappointed after buying all these tyrannofexes (lol).
That's why I'am still having this discussion with you. Not to change your mind but just to protect the other tyranid players. What can I say' I'am a giver.
shogun wrote: For some reasons my 36 inch heavy venom cannons are useless against repulsors because the wouldn't be within range, and the answer to that is bringing 18 inch tyrannofexes. To use your words: 'There's no consistency to any of your nonsense theoryhammer'
That's because my list isn't so one dimensional forced to duke it out in a shootout from across the board with a RepEx. They don't have to worry about the middle of the board vs you, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ON IT, and they are free to just shoot you to shreds, which Space Marines will come out on top vs any army only trying to beat them at that game. So unlike your 'fun' list that you've never actually tested, which may as well be playing Yahtzee and not 40k since literally all you're doing is trying to roll better dice than the guy across the other side of the table, I'm grabbing all the objectives and moving into range to put on pressure. Nobody said anything about the two Tyrannofexes being a counter to Repulsors except you. You're putting words in my mouth because you don't understand this game on any level deeper than diceroll statistics, and addressing the arguments that have torn yours to shreds would be a losing battle.
shogun wrote: I don't have to make a better nidzilla list, and I don't want to because the suck.
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Here, let me quote myself so you can re-read:
"But, I'm still waiting for the example of the list that does better than my one vs Space Marines. Doesn't have to be Nidzilla, in fact I expected it wouldn't be since that was your complaint"
It's been multiple posts now, lets be real, you don't have a list that has a better chance vs Space Marines. You just didn't like someone saying that Nids may not be that bad anymore, because that would mean taking a deeper look at your own play.
shogun wrote: That's why I'am still having this discussion with you. Not to change your mind but just to protect the other tyranid players. What can I say' I'am a giver.
Your parroted advice for an army that I'm not even convinced you actually play, is only hurting people trying to improve their game. Luckily, it wasn't hard to dispel your misinformation because their isn't much rational thought sunk into it. You misquote me and invent arguments and rely on fallacies, while I'm just attempting to coherently explain my position. I really don't think it's written as confusingly as your posts would suggest, but I guess that's what happens when you don't take the time out to actually read what you're responding to and you aren't interested in giving an honest response to the arguments that are being made.
Anyway, this has gone on long enough. This thread is becoming the Zeus and Shogun show, so lets move on. I've given my advice in direct response to someone who asked me for it - not you. Your complaints, however blinkered they may be, have been heard by all by this point. It's time to put this to bed.
Nitro Zeus wrote: That's because my list isn't so one dimensional forced to duke it out in a shootout from across the board with a RepEx.....
Meanwhile you still don't give any reasons why that hierodule would survive the first round of shooting and why the rest would survive after that. I gave you a bunch of enemies army-lists that could take you out without a sweat and the only thing you got to say about that is: 'well, the rest is so tough and I got great board control'
BTW: I play ITC rules so with that kind of setup it doesn't matter if you got board control. The enemy simply keep killing more units and get extra points for that (big game hunter, marked for death..) and you wont claim any enemies objectives turn 1 or 2 so you are already behind.
Ironically I would probably take out your list with my 'fun carnifex list' because your damage output is so low and I could simply take out your hierodule with my double shooting kronos hive guard and carnifexes. After that it is just shooting fish in a barrel.
BTW you said that your hierodule get's a 4++ from dermic symbiosis but that gives him a 5++, so maybe I'am missing something (it happens..) but if not, he is not that tough.
I made one mistake in my carnifex list BTW: I would give it 'Synaptic Augmentation' so that every single carnifex can reroll a single to hit. That really works nicely with heavy venom cannons. But I'am not going to find out any time soon because I already know nidzilla is doomed. So no reason in playing it outside casual play.
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
Spoiler:
I think this list is great too. The way a list like this plays in general is just the move MC's up under the Malanthrope bubble, cover the wings and spread around the board with fast advancing Termagants in front of Dakkafexes, while the ball of MC's advances under the the Malanthrope bubble. They will likely be in range of SOMETHING after a turn, but definitely in your opponent's face by turn 2 unless it encounters significant speedbumps, which should be ideal anyway to such a close range high volume shooting army.
Run forward and set up out front of your opponent's gunline. It's easier to play vs guys who can't threaten your Hierodule in melee. You want to be casting Horror on whatever in range could do the most damage to him. You want to end your turn with the Hierodule either beneath the Malanthrope bubble, or in combat with something that can't fall back. But not being able to lock something down doesn't mean you can't use him earlier though - Resonance Barb on the Onslaught isn't a typo, it's a really reliable cast with +1 to cast, re-roll natural 1s, so you can advance the Hierodule up in their face with flat 18", charge, kill something, maybe even fight twice, or get a flamer off if you see the opportunity, and the use Overrun stratagem to fall all the way back to the Malanthrope. If your opponent is playing a castle or doesn't have any one great target for The Horror, you can also consider the new Kraken power to make those charges go even further, as you may not be able to get any value off the Horror until like turn 3 if at all. For ease during gameplay, the rough math on Hierodule's 3D6 drop lowest is basically a regular charge +2", with a cap of 12" obviously. With re-rolls from Kraken you safely risk 9" charges or more. So just try to dance him in and out of combat until you can safely get stuck in.
The Toxicrene is included in the list because it's about the same price and similar damage at times as a Dakkafex, but is chosen instead of one because there is room for another bug under the Malanthrope umbrella (Carnifexes use their own spores and spread out a little) and if your opponent is forced to try deal with everything else first, a Toxicrene can be a punishing thing to have to deal with charging you. And if they set-up anything midfield, well, if you get a Toxicrene in range of that you can potentially charge that thing with all your bugs and use it as a lighthouse for a turn in the right circumstances. Don't see it as something you rely on, but still keep one there just for that coverage on the games where they can't safely deal with a bunch of high T -1 to hit wounds.
The list has plenty of CP, you probably want to be using both Metabolic Overdrive and Opportunistic Advance both most turns on something, even if it's just Termagants. Use the move and shoot stratagem on the Exocrine just to keep him in range of the Malanthrope without penalty. Saving CP for double fighting Hierodule and Overrun is your impact strats. A single biovore is just low investment tech, but can be used to severely limit the movement of a Knight, which is important when you're playing a Hierodule, you can block a melee Knight or at least make them go a long way and miss their change. Move and shoot him for 5+ to hit and likely drop a Spore, double shoot him if it saves your Hierodule getting charged by a Knight, that's a game altering play for just 40 points.
Against Iron Hands, or SM in general, a couple of things - if they have Eliminators with a Phobos captain, your Malanthrope goes down by their second turn without even requiring LoS - look at terrain and try to deploy and advance in a way that will force them to sit somewhere that your Hierodule will be able to reach out and touch. If not, consider picking up the Kraken relic on him, maybe using your Catalyst cast on him instead of the Hierodule (don't do this lightly), and remembering that while Venomthropes are infantry, the Malanthrope IS an MC for the purpose of Rapid Regeneration, and a full Eliminator set-up only has a 3/4 chance or so to kill him by turn 2 - even an extra wound or two will make those chances shrink phenomenally, and even that 1 extra shooting phase of defensive bubble can basically make all the difference. If they roll hot on the first shooting phase and leave him on like 2 wounds don't bother though obviously. But if you can use that extra turn to kill the Eliminators, 1 wound on a Malanthrope is basically full wounds since nothing else (except greed!) can touch him really. And if this happened you've basically invalidated his entire points investment on that one there. On the topic of Malanthrope greed - getting re-roll 1s army wide is good, but -1 to hit to is more important especially when a good portion of your damage is auto-hitting with flamers anyway, so only go for that when it's safe.
Iron Hands specifically, use the Lictor to counter the Overwatch when their castle is at it's strongest - probably the first time you charge with the Hierodule. Don't overthink it, take the opportunity to lower some damage while it's on the available, and remember that Kraken means that if for some reason the Lictor survives that combat till the next turn, or if they put max dice on your actual threats since you're probably bearing down hard at this point, then you can fallback to into terrain (DOESN'T have to be cover, just as long as you're on a terrain feature) and then use the stratagem to do it again. May not happen all the time but whatever it's enough to be relevant.
Vs Iron Hands, the Dakkafexes want to get in melee with AP5 maws and a Bonemace. If you can lock stuff down with a Toxicrene, or just base up multiple things, you can safely fallback and charge just to add on those Mortal Wound dice and the +1 to hit.
If they are running Repulsors just try to get a Hierodule in combat with one, fight twice, and Overrun back to safety. Do this twice and you are doing well. If they have a bunch of Flyers I dunno. Try to position the Tyrannofex so that the flyers will land in range I guess, and protect the Exocrine the most, and remember to add 1 damage to his shooting (just in general a good thing to do anyway). Chase them down on your side of the board with Hierodule flamer, and try to use your big base sizes to limit their movement. Focus less on your Malanthrope here since they will be coming to you, but again keep the Exocrine in range of it most likely and try hold the objectives with MC's, save your troops for the ones that need to be contested by ObSec.
Using a very similar list, I went undefeated in an event recently that had multiple SM lists in. My path took me through four Power Armour lists and one Knight + Ad Mech gunline. And this was pre-Blood of Baal stuff, which makes a MASSIVE difference in our favor. I have full confidence in this list to perform, if you as a general are up to it. I also think infantry Nids is still equally as good on paper, but its just a meta call at the moment because boltstorm is so common that you may just get shredded off the table in too many matchups.
THANK YOU, for an exhaustive and informative answer on the list. I be been watching your results from afar and I believe you are a skilled and Intuitive player. I've would like to discuss the list further in the near future. I put in an order just before x-mas, so by the time I build and paint,maybe next month, I'll start to play this competitively. I will pm you if you want to.
For the rest, I've been pretty active on this forum and too often there is the one guy with talent and results discussing and having to defend his positivity with a bunch on nayers and doomsday caller that fail to grasp why THEY are loosing and others are winning.
You obviously have been thinking about this deep and hard, those who counter your think process presents no evidence or, again, results, to back up their thoughts and all in all it fall back in everybody having their own echo chamber of thought process and other different opinions are simplified in "so what are you saying is". This problem is all over internet and is getting worst everyday.
Although is not all doom and gloom, and for those, like you Nitro, that can still kick some ass being the underdog, the situation is just a deeper and more satisfying way of achieving something in a passion and/or obsession as this game we all love, or hate is. Sometimes is good enough to hate something together too.
All in all, keep on the good work, for once, I support you. People like you helped me taking a whole new army and never playing anything competitive, to be ranking 250 ITC with orks and no Lootas. Kudos dude
Emicrania wrote: For the rest, I've been pretty active on this forum and too often there is the one guy with talent and results........
Then please give me the battle reports and results and if I'am really missing something then I'am going to shut up. And I will give him the credit he deserves and take my hat off.
Is Nitro Zeus a bigshot 40k player with a great record? I don't know? Please tell me if so.
Emicrania wrote: You obviously have been thinking about this deep and hard, those who counter your think process presents no evidence...
I don't need to bring evidence against the player that claims his nidzilla list is so great. That is his job. Do I need to bring evidence on how his list doesn't work?
Hahaha. Well, I have a record that I'm very happy with so far in 8th, including multiple tournament wins under my belt so far, no Major's though so feel free to ignore me I guess? I'm not going to dox myself as I've made that mistake in the past, people who know me know me, and plus I am of the belief opinions should be valued for their own merit, not from who says them. I've heard some pretty questionable stuff from a great player at least once before, and I've found insight from even random nobodies. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and even a broken clock is right at least twice a day. But I will share this list from another player that got top 4 at a GT a few weeks ago, that had two other Iron Hands players in the top 4.
+ Lord of War [22 PL, 410pts] + Scythed Hierodule [22 PL, 410pts]: 2x Massive Scything Talons [60pts]
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
He also beat some scary lists including an Imperial Fist list running multiple Repulsor Executioners that you claimed Nidzilla or anything running a Hierodule can't possibly beat. That Fist went on to do quite well, and ironically, beat a different Nid player who was making heavy use of Carnifexes and Mawlocs.
And this was all PRE-BoB, and PRE-CA, so as of now his list has only gotten significantly stronger.
And I personally think that my list, while a similar concept, is a bit more improved and refined, but different players will inevitably have different approaches and I respect his.
But hey, what do I know. HiErOdUlE cAnT sUrViVe PaSt TuRn 1, so what he did is literally impossible and all that.
I wonder if people will actually hold true to their word and admit when they are wrong. There's more to the game than setting up on the back of the board and shooting anything in the middle, but that's something we each have to figure out for ourselves.
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Beside all the discussion, I think this is a great list, how would you play this list vs IH or other heavy gunlines?
Spoiler:
I think this list is great too. The way a list like this plays in general is just the move MC's up under the Malanthrope bubble, cover the wings and spread around the board with fast advancing Termagants in front of Dakkafexes, while the ball of MC's advances under the the Malanthrope bubble. They will likely be in range of SOMETHING after a turn, but definitely in your opponent's face by turn 2 unless it encounters significant speedbumps, which should be ideal anyway to such a close range high volume shooting army.
Run forward and set up out front of your opponent's gunline. It's easier to play vs guys who can't threaten your Hierodule in melee. You want to be casting Horror on whatever in range could do the most damage to him. You want to end your turn with the Hierodule either beneath the Malanthrope bubble, or in combat with something that can't fall back. But not being able to lock something down doesn't mean you can't use him earlier though - Resonance Barb on the Onslaught isn't a typo, it's a really reliable cast with +1 to cast, re-roll natural 1s, so you can advance the Hierodule up in their face with flat 18", charge, kill something, maybe even fight twice, or get a flamer off if you see the opportunity, and the use Overrun stratagem to fall all the way back to the Malanthrope. If your opponent is playing a castle or doesn't have any one great target for The Horror, you can also consider the new Kraken power to make those charges go even further, as you may not be able to get any value off the Horror until like turn 3 if at all. For ease during gameplay, the rough math on Hierodule's 3D6 drop lowest is basically a regular charge +2", with a cap of 12" obviously. With re-rolls from Kraken you safely risk 9" charges or more. So just try to dance him in and out of combat until you can safely get stuck in.
The Toxicrene is included in the list because it's about the same price and similar damage at times as a Dakkafex, but is chosen instead of one because there is room for another bug under the Malanthrope umbrella (Carnifexes use their own spores and spread out a little) and if your opponent is forced to try deal with everything else first, a Toxicrene can be a punishing thing to have to deal with charging you. And if they set-up anything midfield, well, if you get a Toxicrene in range of that you can potentially charge that thing with all your bugs and use it as a lighthouse for a turn in the right circumstances. Don't see it as something you rely on, but still keep one there just for that coverage on the games where they can't safely deal with a bunch of high T -1 to hit wounds.
The list has plenty of CP, you probably want to be using both Metabolic Overdrive and Opportunistic Advance both most turns on something, even if it's just Termagants. Use the move and shoot stratagem on the Exocrine just to keep him in range of the Malanthrope without penalty. Saving CP for double fighting Hierodule and Overrun is your impact strats. A single biovore is just low investment tech, but can be used to severely limit the movement of a Knight, which is important when you're playing a Hierodule, you can block a melee Knight or at least make them go a long way and miss their change. Move and shoot him for 5+ to hit and likely drop a Spore, double shoot him if it saves your Hierodule getting charged by a Knight, that's a game altering play for just 40 points.
Against Iron Hands, or SM in general, a couple of things - if they have Eliminators with a Phobos captain, your Malanthrope goes down by their second turn without even requiring LoS - look at terrain and try to deploy and advance in a way that will force them to sit somewhere that your Hierodule will be able to reach out and touch. If not, consider picking up the Kraken relic on him, maybe using your Catalyst cast on him instead of the Hierodule (don't do this lightly), and remembering that while Venomthropes are infantry, the Malanthrope IS an MC for the purpose of Rapid Regeneration, and a full Eliminator set-up only has a 3/4 chance or so to kill him by turn 2 - even an extra wound or two will make those chances shrink phenomenally, and even that 1 extra shooting phase of defensive bubble can basically make all the difference. If they roll hot on the first shooting phase and leave him on like 2 wounds don't bother though obviously. But if you can use that extra turn to kill the Eliminators, 1 wound on a Malanthrope is basically full wounds since nothing else (except greed!) can touch him really. And if this happened you've basically invalidated his entire points investment on that one there. On the topic of Malanthrope greed - getting re-roll 1s army wide is good, but -1 to hit to is more important especially when a good portion of your damage is auto-hitting with flamers anyway, so only go for that when it's safe.
Iron Hands specifically, use the Lictor to counter the Overwatch when their castle is at it's strongest - probably the first time you charge with the Hierodule. Don't overthink it, take the opportunity to lower some damage while it's on the available, and remember that Kraken means that if for some reason the Lictor survives that combat till the next turn, or if they put max dice on your actual threats since you're probably bearing down hard at this point, then you can fallback to into terrain (DOESN'T have to be cover, just as long as you're on a terrain feature) and then use the stratagem to do it again. May not happen all the time but whatever it's enough to be relevant.
Vs Iron Hands, the Dakkafexes want to get in melee with AP5 maws and a Bonemace. If you can lock stuff down with a Toxicrene, or just base up multiple things, you can safely fallback and charge just to add on those Mortal Wound dice and the +1 to hit.
If they are running Repulsors just try to get a Hierodule in combat with one, fight twice, and Overrun back to safety. Do this twice and you are doing well. If they have a bunch of Flyers I dunno. Try to position the Tyrannofex so that the flyers will land in range I guess, and protect the Exocrine the most, and remember to add 1 damage to his shooting (just in general a good thing to do anyway). Chase them down on your side of the board with Hierodule flamer, and try to use your big base sizes to limit their movement. Focus less on your Malanthrope here since they will be coming to you, but again keep the Exocrine in range of it most likely and try hold the objectives with MC's, save your troops for the ones that need to be contested by ObSec.
Using a very similar list, I went undefeated in an event recently that had multiple SM lists in. My path took me through four Power Armour lists and one Knight + Ad Mech gunline. And this was pre-Blood of Baal stuff, which makes a MASSIVE difference in our favor. I have full confidence in this list to perform, if you as a general are up to it. I also think infantry Nids is still equally as good on paper, but its just a meta call at the moment because boltstorm is so common that you may just get shredded off the table in too many matchups.
THANK YOU, for an exhaustive and informative answer on the list. I be been watching your results from afar and I believe you are a skilled and Intuitive player. I've would like to discuss the list further in the near future. I put in an order just before x-mas, so by the time I build and paint,maybe next month, I'll start to play this competitively. I will pm you if you want to.
For the rest, I've been pretty active on this forum and too often there is the one guy with talent and results discussing and having to defend his positivity with a bunch on nayers and doomsday caller that fail to grasp why THEY are loosing and others are winning.
You obviously have been thinking about this deep and hard, those who counter your think process presents no evidence or, again, results, to back up their thoughts and all in all it fall back in everybody having their own echo chamber of thought process and other different opinions are simplified in "so what are you saying is". This problem is all over internet and is getting worst everyday.
Although is not all doom and gloom, and for those, like you Nitro, that can still kick some ass being the underdog, the situation is just a deeper and more satisfying way of achieving something in a passion and/or obsession as this game we all love, or hate is. Sometimes is good enough to hate something together too.
All in all, keep on the good work, for once, I support you. People like you helped me taking a whole new army and never playing anything competitive, to be ranking 250 ITC with orks and no Lootas. Kudos dude
Thanks mate. I'm done responding to the people who swear up and down there's a better way to do it, but cannot coherently explain that alternative or provide any sort of list that does it better. It's clear that could happily be extended forever, and It's pretty clear to me what might motivate such a person to argue a point so relentlessly.
I appreciate the moderate head, and consideration to thought and experience before deciding upon something to be a certain way. There's a certain level of play some people seem to reach and never seem to be able to step past it, because they can't see past what the groupthink is telling them. Most top players of every game will tell you that a long time ago they stopped listening to the unbreakable 'rules' of the game that the internetheads seem to try press on everything they see, and this game in particular is far less rigid than mid to low level players seem to think. I don't luck my way through my games, I know exactly what is considered strong, but I put a lot of thought and consideration into every aspect of my list building and gameplay and acknowledgment of the likely meta. The number one thing that helped me improve as a player was building a deeper understanding to make these calls myself rather after realising the majority of advice out there is just people parroting what they've seen said the most. And people are especially quick to write off their own army after a few losses because it's easier than accepting that they might have been able to do something differently for a better outcome.
Feel free to ask me anything at any time. I'm playing this list for the perceivable future and my experience with it will be building going forward over the next month or two. I'd love to hear your experience even running something similar. Put it in here, that's what this thread is for! Don't let one or two loud voices shout you out of the conversation. But feel free to PM me if you'd prefer.
grouchoben wrote: Hey everyone, I've long eyed up horde-nid as a new army option, and Hormagaunts in particular. I know, I know.
But does the new custom hive ruleset make them viable?
You can tech them to have -2AP on their attacks, which transforms the unit's role pretty drastically, or go -1ap and 6++.
So yeah, assuming you go bleeding edge with the rest of your army (Kronos hiveguards et al), could you see a list with 90 hormagaunts doing good work?
It is worth noting raveners benefit from this. They can have 2 sets of scything tallons getting an exstra attack, does not need to pay for rending claw and they got point drops in the chapter aproved. So go for massed scything tallons can be nice.
It is worth noting raveners benefit from this. They can have 2 sets of scything tallons getting an extra attack, does not need to pay for rending claw and they got point drops in the chapter aproved. So go for massed scything tallons can be nice.
This is actually something I've been musing over. Raveners bring a lot of attacks per model with the additional benefit of WS 3+ and a 12'' move, and are reasonable at killing screens prior to a charge if given Spinefists. With AP on their talons they should be a genuine threat and their current cost isn't too bad (+6 points over a 'stealer for +2 wounds and +2 attacks, flat 12'' move instead of 8 + D6'').
Hypothetically, a core of Hormagaunts and Raveners is part of the way towards building a Brigade. Could easily fill the Elites with some Lictors to help mitigate overwatch, leaving Heavy Support and HQ to be filled.
It is worth noting raveners benefit from this. They can have 2 sets of scything tallons getting an extra attack, does not need to pay for rending claw and they got point drops in the chapter aproved. So go for massed scything tallons can be nice.
This is actually something I've been musing over. Raveners bring a lot of attacks per model with the additional benefit of WS 3+ and a 12'' move, and are reasonable at killing screens prior to a charge if given Spinefists. With AP on their talons they should be a genuine threat and their current cost isn't too bad (+6 points over a 'stealer for +2 wounds and +2 attacks, flat 12'' move instead of 8 + D6'').
Hypothetically, a core of Hormagaunts and Raveners is part of the way towards building a Brigade. Could easily fill the Elites with some Lictors to help mitigate overwatch, leaving Heavy Support and HQ to be filled.
Good point maybe Ravagers can return to their former reputation.
Emicrania wrote: We ll talk more once i can play the list Nitro, I think it is a very strong list with a lot of potential and hidden tricks.
Also I think it is a great counter vs Marines. My horde ork get smashed vs bolter and TFC
Yup thats the big threat right now. Bolter spam is just too much for infantry to do anything but get shredded off the table. As much as I love my bodies, I don't think it's viable for a while. Nidzilla gives us a running chance vs this kind of thing. It's the only way Tyranids have been seeing success lately as well. I think it's the best option. Good luck with it! Can't wait to hear your experience, it trumps theoryhammer any day.
grouchoben wrote: Hey everyone, I've long eyed up horde-nid as a new army option, and Hormagaunts in particular. I know, I know.
But does the new custom hive ruleset make them viable?
You can tech them to have -2AP on their attacks, which transforms the unit's role pretty drastically, or go -1ap and 6++.
So yeah, assuming you go bleeding edge with the rest of your army (Kronos hiveguards et al), could you see a list with 90 hormagaunts doing good work?
It is worth noting raveners benefit from this. They can have 2 sets of scything tallons getting an exstra attack, does not need to pay for rending claw and they got point drops in the chapter aproved. So go for massed scything tallons can be nice.
Yeah, i think that many of us have been thinking of that point, they seem really cost efficient now. Remember that the Gorgon power affects all friendly models, not only Gorgon, so it is possible to give -2AP to them.
Another thing to notice is that you can now really spam warriors with the same concept. They have 1 less attack and are obviously not as fast, but they are troops, have a 4+ and are synapses. Against bolters they are better tanks than infantry squads, even if those bolters are -2AP.
Also, i can easily see a big warrior squad being the norm in many lists, they are simply too hard to take down efficiently. Ignore -1/-2 on them and be ready for a -1 damage. It does not fear bolters, stalker bolters, TFC, plasma, executioners (rolls of 1 2 and 3 damage don't kill the warrior on those cannons), It is a troop that can occupy the midfield, provide synapse, shoots quite well and is a reasonably dangerous melee threat. Previously this wouldn't work because everyone had a smashcaptain in the pocket ready to make a carnage, but now they don't.
Current total: 1655 (if I haven't forgotten anything - still in the process of memorizing new costs)
Still need 1 HQ to make it a legal brigade, but there are still a fair amount of points left over. The Mawloc's are admittedly somewhat of a whimsical choice for the heavy support slot, but they do benefit from the strictest interpretation of Bio-metallic Cysts and have their uses for positional dominance (drop them in behind the enemy so they can't fall back as effectively) while being fairly cheap heavy supports. I'm not sure what to do for the second half of the custom trait. On one hand the Pack Hunters would be nifty as a way to double down on the added AP, but it suffers the same problem as Hydra's adaptation with its trigger condition.
I'm going to keep playing around a bit with points. I think I should be able to make a variant with more fire support (Hive Guard and Biovores in place of Mawlocs) that might be a bit more take-all-comers.
Nitro Zeus: how do you get a 4++ on your Heirodule? I would love to see him work in my games and a 4++ would do wonders.
Haven't tested it yet, since I did not play a game since the new supplement, but the Biosphere Consumption adaptation looks nice for Nidzilla as well. It gives a 6+++ On the first battle round (when you most need it) and for monster artillery in subsequent rounds. Thought it nice on top of the 5++ for the Heirodule giving him a better chance to get there (24 wounds sorta becomes 37 with the 5++ and 6+++). Better then the regeneration adaptation in my book.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Nitro Zeus: how do you get a 4++ on your Heirodule? I would love to see him work in my games and a 4++ would do wonders.
Haven't tested it yet, since I did not play a game since the new supplement, but the Biosphere Consumption adaptation looks nice for Nidzilla as well. It gives a 6+++ On the first battle round (when you most need it) and for monster artillery in subsequent rounds. Thought it nice on top of the 5++ for the Heirodule giving him a better chance to get there (24 wounds sorta becomes 37 with the 5++ and 6+++). Better then the regeneration adaptation in my book.
I meant 5++, that was my bad, shogun pointed that out earlier before he stopped posting. It's a force of habit from being used to Flyrants being the only thing with invuls for us that I write out 4++, I do the same thing with Genestealers and Zoanthropes, please discount any instances of me describing Nid models as having a 4++ going forward the 5++ is great it's why I'm taking the Dermic Symbiosis, the big one is the bracket ignoring though
Singleton Mosby wrote: Nitro Zeus: how do you get a 4++ on your Heirodule? I would love to see him work in my games and a 4++ would do wonders.
Haven't tested it yet, since I did not play a game since the new supplement, but the Biosphere Consumption adaptation looks nice for Nidzilla as well. It gives a 6+++ On the first battle round (when you most need it) and for monster artillery in subsequent rounds. Thought it nice on top of the 5++ for the Heirodule giving him a better chance to get there (24 wounds sorta becomes 37 with the 5++ and 6+++). Better then the regeneration adaptation in my book.
I meant 5++, that was my bad, shogun pointed that out earlier before he stopped posting. It's a force of habit from being used to Flyrants being the only thing with invuls for us that I write out 4++, I do the same thing with Genestealers and Zoanthropes, please discount any instances of me describing Nid models as having a 4++ going forward the 5++ is great it's why I'm taking the Dermic Symbiosis
Good to know.
A 5++, 6+++ (first turn) and minus 1 to hit makes the Heirodule quite resilient I suppose. Hope to give it a try next week.
I recently won an RTT with this against top meta armies (Marines, Imperial soup, Eldar/DE).
Good job! Did you manage to dodge TFC's gunning for your Genestealers? Can you tell us more about your games? Did you give Synaptic Lure to the Swarmlord and if so did you get any use of it? I imagine Symbiostorm on the Hive Guards was boss?
-Typically the warriors get +1 cover adaptive physiology and park themselves in the middle of the table. Only time I took ignore -1/-2 was against 9x Dark Reapers. Sometimes I'll catalyst one unit and -1 damage the other so there isn't an obvious target against lots of multi-damage weapons.
-I go back and forth on the genestealers due to the TFC issue but honestly I still think you need at least one unit. Without assault jank what exactly are Tyranids good at? I'm considering dropping them for gargoyles though.
Nuero (1): Symbiostorm (Exocrine or HG depending on target)
Nuero (2): Catalyst or Onslaught (Depends on opponent also gets res barb)
Swarmlord: Catalsys or Onslught & psyhcic scream
Last round I played Spears, Reapers, 18x Grotesques, characters, etc.
I recently won an RTT with this against top meta armies (Marines, Imperial soup, Eldar/DE).
Really nice. This is sort of where I am at.
My swap on this would be to swap the vanguard for a spearhead, drop the 2 lictors for a biovore and double up on exocrines for ablative wounds and T1/2.
Deepest Shadow is so good and biovore enables this T1 where the lictors are unlikely to be in position for it at any turn unless they survive combat.
Also with a single stealer unit, broodlord with catalyst and resonance barb might find better value. Character rule helps both BL and OOE up the board and you can always chase OOE with the onslaught neurothrope from Jorm detachment.
Brings is to 1999 with i think better alpha and board presence but I could be wrong.
I like resonance barb on the nuerothrope who usually has onslaught. It is the one power that HAS to go off since it likely involves Old One Eye charging and blowing up a key unit like spears or a knight vs staring at them 1 inch away. Casting on a 5 re rolling 1 is almost automatic.
-1 damage is a strat...the warriors usually get +1 cover.
I love the exocrine, but he's pretty vunerable in this list. I might drop him to fill out the third garg unit to max and drop the levi rippers to get a screening hormagaunt unit.
-The value in the lictors is the ability to ignore overwatch and charge out of reserve. Deepest shadow is nice, and perhaps not as good on lictors as spore mines, but can still be used on them. Spore mines cant do what lictors do, but lictors can do what spore mines do.
-I like one exocrine personally because its a low cost investment. Some games its just going to get ripped off the board immediately by armies with absurd anti tank, oh well its 155 points. Some games however, it will shoot all game and be a major MVP. Having only one also allows it to move around the board without becoming totally useless because of the strat. You can deploy it behind a wall or 42 inches away from a juicy target.
-I'm really only crazy about Kraken broodlords because of their absurd speed. I rather have the reliability of re-roll ones psychic tests and the durability of a 3++.
-Also i moved to LW/BS on the warriors instead of 2x bonesword, much better.
997Turbo wrote: -The value in the lictors is the ability to ignore overwatch and charge out of reserve. Deepest shadow is nice, and perhaps not as good on lictors as spore mines, but can still be used on them. Spore mines cant do what lictors do, but lictors can do what spore mines do.
-I like one exocrine personally because its a low cost investment. Some games its just going to get ripped off the board immediately by armies with absurd anti tank, oh well its 155 points. Some games however, it will shoot all game and be a major MVP. Having only one also allows it to move around the board without becoming totally useless because of the strat. You can deploy it behind a wall or 42 inches away from a juicy target.
-I'm really only crazy about Kraken broodlords because of their absurd speed. I rather have the reliability of re-roll ones psychic tests and the durability of a 3++.
-Also i moved to LW/BS on the warriors instead of 2x bonesword, much better.
So i have been out of the game for six months (real life sucks like that sometimes) so I'm in listening mode instead of delivered wisdom from on high mode.
When i was playing, the need to counter Knight and IG superheavy lists resulted in everybody having the absurd firepower needed to make that Exocrine get shot of the table every time it went second. Has the meta shift + protection from the Malenthrope changed that?
Why are you liking the LW/BS over 2x bonesword? Is there enough melee threat now that LW are useful?
So my flgs is going to be doing an escalation league this year starting in January and I am going to go tyranids for a few different reasons. (1 my flgs has a lot of nids available to purchase for cheap and 2 there are no longer any nid players really there).
I am going to go swarm for this trial, 60 hormagaunts, 30 termagaunts, and 30 gargoyles is my initial idea.
Which brings me to this post. I look at gargoyles and think "5 pts a model, they have some utility use it seems to me" then I look online and people say "absolute hot garbage, pass".
So what's the real issue here? Is it meta based that people don't care for them? I can see vs marines them not being very effective, though at 30 models they dont have to kill to be effective. Move blocking is a thing, as well as deep strike denial. But vs any t3 unit I can see them doing well.
Also what hive fleet really works best for swarms? I was thinking of going custom and doing the 6++/4+++ vs overwatch but am not 100% sure yet.
Gargs are great now with the BoB book additions. They really were pretty bad before.
They combined high speed, shooting, and a gimicky melee into an extremely fragile unit that did no damage.
Now however, with the custom hive traits, you can give them -1 to hit in melee and -1 ap on their melee. This makes it more likely for their blinding venom to go off and make them a fairly resistant tarpit unit. If you can get them to charge something and wrap it (not super hard since they have fly) you only have to inflict one wound with the whole unit to get -2 to hit it in melee and immune to being shot. If you then cast the horror on the engaged unit your at -3 to be hit.
Even a squad of ork boys will struggle to do any meaningful damage to them in this situation.
Take an outrider with 2-3 squads of gargs backed up by a flying Hive tyrant and mabey a squad of shrikes for a fairly cheap detachment that can really mess up your opponents plans.
I love the exocrine, but he's pretty vunerable in this list. I might drop him to fill out the third garg unit to max and drop the levi rippers to get a screening hormagaunt unit.
I actually really like this list. I think the exocrine needs to stay, hes basically a cheaper leman russ, and with the +1 to hit can get the exploding hits on 5's, move him and still shoot twice.
I really like the gargoyoles, with blinding venom you could be getting-2 to hit.
Something you may want to try, is to get a few zoanthropes in this detachemnt. SInce they can fly, the could be a solid anvil unit. You can get them in on the charge, they got the -1 to hit, 3++ invul, and can smite whatever they are in CC with and heal up off it.
Also, if you can get a lictor in here somewhere to abosrb/deny overwatch that could certainly be helpful
Nitro Zeus wrote: can we get a consensus on whether or not the Exocrine can advance and still shoot with the new strat?
From BoB
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select one EXOCRINE unit from your army; until the end of that phase, that unit is treated as not having moved in your Movement phase.
From the codex
Weapon Beast: If this model does not move in your Movement phase, it can shoot all of its weapons twice in your Shooting phase.
Symbiotic Targeting: If this model does not move in its Movement phase, you can add 1 to its hit rolls in the following Shooting phase. If you do so, it cannot charge in the same turn.
English is not my native language and I have been wrong before,BUT I feel this one is pretty straightforward.
I would agree with you, though I've heard people argue that 'advancing' is a separate thing to just 'moving'. My store is happy playing it that it can advance and shoot, but wondering if that's going to be the standard.
You can declare a model will advance, and then decide not to move it (maybe you didn't roll as high as you needed to duck between two pieces of cover). If you did that, then the model would still count as having advanced later in the turn.
I see the stratagem as putting you into a similar state. Your model has not moved, but it has still advanced.
Considering the Advance just Modifies the Movement characteristic, i would say you could still move and advance and use your stratagem and still shoot twice as though it hand't moved.
Dynas wrote: Considering the Advance just Modifies the Movement characteristic, i would say you could still move and advance and use your stratagem and still shoot twice as though it hand't moved.
But it's also a state.
If you have a 6" move, roll an Advance and get a 3, then move only 5", do you still count as having Advanced?
My answer would be yes. Just like what eldar players do with their units that require you to move at least x" to gain a bonus, if they move half that forward and half back they still count as moving even if they ended up in the same spot as they started. Just my interpretation of it.
Arson Fire wrote: You can declare a model will advance, and then decide not to move it (maybe you didn't roll as high as you needed to duck between two pieces of cover). If you did that, then the model would still count as having advanced later in the turn.
I see the stratagem as putting you into a similar state. Your model has not moved, but it has still advanced.
I think this is correct, in that the Exocrine would essentially have two 'tag' states. "Has not moved" and "has advanced".
But the stratagems and special rule all only mention "If this model does not move...". And so, as it counts as not moving, you can still fire twice and get +1 to hits. But...
The rule for Advancing says that "A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn". So it would be fine if you had assault weapons, but the Exocrine has a Heavy.
So unfortunately I don't think you can advance and shoot. Only move and shoot. But it's kinda begging for an FAQ, so I would write a bunch of emails to the GW rules team for clarification. Cos it does imply that they meant for it to count as stationary, advance or no.
Niiru wrote: So unfortunately I don't think you can advance and shoot. Only move and shoot. But it's kinda begging for an FAQ, so I would write a bunch of emails to the GW rules team for clarification. Cos it does imply that they meant for it to count as stationary, advance or no.
Q: If an Exocrine model is affected by the Symbiotic Devastation Stratagem in the same turn that it Advanced, can it then shoot that turn? A: No, because it has still Advanced that turn.
That's that one cleared up I guess.
In other news, named characters can no longer take Adaptations.
Man they nerfed us again. Named characters not getting PA was expected. Pysker reroll is worthless now. FOr a pysker race we really need the Grey Knight no smite increase.
Also, AP increases not effecting Massive and Monstrous sycthing talons hurts.
We might of had a chance, still cant even get anything better than an 8+ reroll on charge. While BA can get +2 and rerolls and all this jazz.
So, basically the hive fleet adaptations are now pointless as the main codex hive fleet rules and access to stratagems is just better?
Derpy.
Frustrates me that they could leave some slightly OP stuff in and regain some semblance of codex balance. Frustrating that after four decades they *still* cannot get the faction balance right.
zerosignal wrote: So, basically the hive fleet adaptations are now pointless as the main codex hive fleet rules and access to stratagems is just better?
Derpy.
Frustrates me that they could leave some slightly OP stuff in and regain some semblance of codex balance. Frustrating that after four decades they *still* cannot get the faction balance right.
Yup.
A lot of the new Psyker powers and custom hive fleets are not good enought to offset the existing stuff.
They should have just made a 2nd pysker table like marines have with all the new powers. Make the unit pick form one or the other, and have a stratagem that allows them to pick from both for 1 cp. Barb should also allow to know another power. The lack of pysker power in general for a race that is supposed to be arguable the best in the universe, with Eldar probably being on par wit them. Give us GK smite treatment where it doesnt go up.
I sent an email to GW basically telling them all my frustrations with the lack of power, they givith (sorta) and surely take away. We have like 3 months of solid codex and have been on the bottom for nearly all of 8th edition.
Lictors still not really good due to T1 charge nerfs and cant get deny overwatch unless he DS or is out of LoS. DS charge on an 8+ with rerollable is still only like 59% chance, while BA can get buffs for +2 and/or rerollables ,3d6 etc... Bring back pheremone trail to offset the T1 nerf and allow GS to use them. Allowing hive commander on units after DS would help as well. GS are already glass cannons.
Warriors need to be our primaris, they need to be T5 3+; though the new Physiology ans start did help, just not enough. Gants, gargs, hormies, termies, GS, all die to massive AP that is out there.
I proposed allowing us to unlock one Adaptive Physiology per Detachment and then can gain another 1 with the CP strat and a 5th by giving up WLT. This might get us on par with the SM doctrines which get the entire army at not CP/WLT cost off the bat. Given that most nid armies have 12+ units this seems fair IMO.
I emailed GW stating as much. Hopefully they listen.
We just have to accept that marines are on another scale of power. There is no reason to compare our stuff to theirs.
No faction right now can compete with them, except by making lists tailored against the primaris profile.
Marine's power level is an anomaly, not a new step of the power creep. We saw the next codex in the new cycle, the sisters, and they are good but nowhere near that level.
After this round of buffs we have good chances against every non-marine out there. The new lictor gave us what we needed against the Tau, which was the last ones who gave me big troubles.
Right now all top tables are marines or anti marines lists, we aren't the only ones in trouble. It will be like this for a while, until marines receive a nerf. There isn't much else to do except to accept it and wait.
Our biggest fear, that the marine level was a new standard and GW went with a huge power creep, has been debunked with the sisters.
Spoletta wrote: We just have to accept that marines are on another scale of power. There is no reason to compare our stuff to theirs.
No faction right now can compete with them, except by making lists tailored against the primaris profile.
Marine's power level is an anomaly, not a new step of the power creep. We saw the next codex in the new cycle, the sisters, and they are good but nowhere near that level.
After this round of buffs we have good chances against every non-marine out there. The new lictor gave us what we needed against the Tau, which was the last ones who gave me big troubles.
Right now all top tables are marines or anti marines lists, we aren't the only ones in trouble. It will be like this for a while, until marines receive a nerf. There isn't much else to do except to accept it and wait.
Our biggest fear, that the marine level was a new standard and GW went with a huge power creep, has been debunked with the sisters.
But that is the new benchmark with their rules stacking. Marines are not going to get the nerf. The lictor will not let us beat tau. You send him in and don't get overwatched, ok cool, maybe he tags a screen unit of drones or fire warriors. Then you send in the Genestealers attacking the same unit, Tau can still For the greater good the genestealers with every other unit that the lictor isn't touching. It doesn't really help. Tau is probably the only thing that can compete with marines, because they have shield drone spam, and marker lights to ignore cover.
Nids have become depressing to play over the last year or so in our household. The buff marines got made swarming pointless and big bugs feel too fragile.
I feel like we have to take the upmost advantage of the new Baal to compete, to still be second rate to just how marines are at their very basic levels. This is driving me nuts as my fiancee plays Tyranids and is struggling to keep up with all the new stuff and still dying to just overwhelming scores of ap bolters lol. At this point we just ignore most of Baal aside from 1-2 strats and the invul for OOE. If she's going to die anyways at least she doesn't have to get a headache from it.
Spoletta wrote: We just have to accept that marines are on another scale of power. There is no reason to compare our stuff to theirs.
No faction right now can compete with them, except by making lists tailored against the primaris profile.
Marine's power level is an anomaly, not a new step of the power creep. We saw the next codex in the new cycle, the sisters, and they are good but nowhere near that level.
After this round of buffs we have good chances against every non-marine out there. The new lictor gave us what we needed against the Tau, which was the last ones who gave me big troubles.
Right now all top tables are marines or anti marines lists, we aren't the only ones in trouble. It will be like this for a while, until marines receive a nerf. There isn't much else to do except to accept it and wait.
Our biggest fear, that the marine level was a new standard and GW went with a huge power creep, has been debunked with the sisters.
But that is the new benchmark with their rules stacking. Marines are not going to get the nerf. The lictor will not let us beat tau. You send him in and don't get overwatched, ok cool, maybe he tags a screen unit of drones or fire warriors. Then you send in the Genestealers attacking the same unit, Tau can still For the greater good the genestealers with every other unit that the lictor isn't touching. It doesn't really help. Tau is probably the only thing that can compete with marines, because they have shield drone spam, and marker lights to ignore cover.
Marines are not a new benchmark, they are an anomaly, this is what i was trying to say. The fact that the next codex in the new cycle, which we know that it is a "new" codex because it has anti soup rules, is on a power level which is comparable to all the other non marine codici, puts everything in a different perspective. If we could go against marines, then that would be a raise in the general power level, while right now the marines (and not all of them) are just an anomaly. I guess that we will not know for sure until the next new codex what is exactly the benchmark, with only 2 examples it is a bit hard to calculate a trend.
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Keramory wrote: Nids have become depressing to play over the last year or so in our household. The buff marines got made swarming pointless and big bugs feel too fragile.
I feel like we have to take the upmost advantage of the new Baal to compete, to still be second rate to just how marines are at their very basic levels. This is driving me nuts as my fiancee plays Tyranids and is struggling to keep up with all the new stuff and still dying to just overwhelming scores of ap bolters lol. At this point we just ignore most of Baal aside from 1-2 strats and the invul for OOE. If she's going to die anyways at least she doesn't have to get a headache from it.
Sorry to tell you this, but since the last FAQ, no more invul for OOE.
Thats... annoying. Considering it's canon that all our characters respawn from fleets and can easily have a unique mutation. Seriously why? What was so broken they needed to do this? Simply because WT and Relics were restricted by characters?
Going to be a funny convo though.
Her: This is all complicated and they die anyway.
Me: yeah...
Her: At least OoE finally has an invul
Me: About that...
People would know better then me but I wouldn't say it's worthless. The lack of giving OoE an invul feels rough but honestly I was never an overall fan of the current WT or Relics our Codex had outside of 1-2 things. Having more options are nice... I just got to find something to fixate on.
The one tiny I got out of Baal is the Mawloc strat. Many argue it's not worth it still but I do like the idea of getting some kind of use out of it.
I think the physiology still have uses, it certainly nerfs a few. I really think we should have got 1 per detachment and then the strat to buy a 4th and the option to give up the WLT for a 5th. I think they will be best on larger units.
Anything compared to SM, but SM, is gak. Tyranid are definitely in dire need of an hand, but nothing should be ever again at SM levels. That is how you break a game
So, I had a rather interesting game yesterday against my friend's Raven Guard. I had originally been planning on playing with one of our local Daemon players that tends to bring more mild/narrative-driven lists, so I had brought a Kronos Shadowbrink-style gunline with 3x Tervigons, 90x Termagants, 2x Exocrines, 3x Biovores, 6x Hive Guard, a Malceptor, and a unit of shooty warriors with me. They didn't show up this week, so I fought my friend instead. He brought his standard sniper and infiltrator-heavy Raven Guard list (infiltrators, some scouts, eliminators, character support, Shrike, Reavers, Hellblasters, Storm Raven, Venerable Dread).
To cut to the chase, the Encephalic Diffusion stratagem for the Malceptor is actually really solid and the game actually ended up fairly close despite my bringing a list that wasn't intended to fight Marines. Bolt weapons needing 4's to wound replenishing Termagants and 5's to wound my Warriors (which took the Enhanced Resilience Adaptive Physiology) was a huge improvement, while overcharged Plasma needing 5's to wound the T8 monsters was exceptionally nice to have and saved one Exocrine that otherwise should have been reduced to ash. I ended the game having only lost two Tervigons, two units of Termagants (one on the first turn that was out of range of the Malceptor, the second after a couple rounds with tying up Shrike and Reavers), an Exocrine, and the Malceptor on the last turn. I had a 2 point lead in victory points when we called it.
My friend's been theorycrafting a Maleceptor-based list using 18 Tyranid Warriors. Apparently buffed up warriors in the current meta have enough durability to function kinda like daemons/TSons plaguebearers in prior metas.
Should be interesting to see people running more of these buffed up troops alongside tyranid gunlines.
Turn one, I get charged by Berzerkers rolling a 12, Warriors punched to death by champ and an objective killed
Rupture fails to kill Helbrute, Hormagaunts Brute Force it and eat half the Bloddletters
OOE doesn’t do enough to kill a Zerk squad, revenge kills Jugger Lord in Chaos turn after Butchers charge on a 10
Her home guard Zerks move up to drive the horms off the centre objectives
Rupture performs poorly against Butchers twice, leaving them in charge distance of Neurothrope. Rippers aren’t going to harvest enough from her unprotected DZ to turn around her 12-3 lead, so I concede at T4
I love Rupturefex but feel like I might get more out of an Exocrine these days, especially if I have Biovores to put down long range pressure (anyone done the numbers on damage efficiency vs Rupturefex?)
Resonance Barb
PSYKER model only. A model with this Relic can attempt to manifest one additional psychic power in your Psychic phase and attempt to deny one additional psychic power in your opponent’s Psychic phase. In addition, when a Psychic test is taken for a model with this Relic, add 1 to the total
Flyrants, I dunno. I guess their purpose is if you want to put your synapse, mobility, psychic spells and dakka all in the same basket, so that when it gets blown off the table you lose everything at once?
Honestly they are probably best used for redundant wounds and drawing fire, which the 4++ lets them do... semi-efficiently at least.
Walkrants are quite decent when equipped as gunboats.
A walkrant with the right equip can almost one round a ravager (8,6 wounds). For a 172 point model that is protected by a 4++, casts 2 powers, does not degrade in BS until the last 3 wounds, and has double range synapse, that is not so bad. It's under the 200 point mark, so if the opponent focuses him down you are not so sad about it.
Asking for a friend: what do Tyranids have that's good against vehicles?
I have a friend with an army with around 30 Genestealers, 60 Termagants, 30 Hormagants, 10 Warriors, Broodlord, Prime, Trygon, Tervigon, and a Hive Tyrant (At least, that's what I remember). I completely smashed him with my Guard army last game, and primarily with my Tanks, so was wondering what he should look into getting to counter my tanks and any Space Marines vehicles.
I love Rupturefex but feel like I might get more out of an Exocrine these days, especially if I have Biovores to put down long range pressure (anyone done the numbers on damage efficiency vs Rupturefex?)
Math says the Exocrine is better against anything less than T8, by virtue of having better accuracy and a larger dice pool. Against T8+ the Rupture Cannon pulls a bit ahead due to an easier time wounding compensating for the accuracy and volume of fire difference.
In the current environment, you are probably better served with the Exocrine unless you see a lot of Repulsors or similar heavy vehicles.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What is the purpose of Carnifexes? Rhinos are tougher than them FFS.
The Carnifex is the only monster in the codex that doesn't degrade and is one of a handful that can be tailored to perform different roles depending on load-out. It is also the cheapest (provided you don't go too crazy on gear) which lends well towards threat saturation. Carnifexes are also mostly self-sufficient apart from synapse. They don't really need stratagems to do their job and they can bring their own spore clouds.
Competitively, they are one of the better ranged platforms in the army due to Enhanced Senses and relatively high volume of fire weaponry. The main issue for most variants is that the majority of their guns have low-to-middling AP, which isn't so great in a marine-dominated metagame.
And what is the purpose of Hive Tyrants? Every time I've put one down on the table it has no wounds by the end of my opponent's next turn.
"Jack of all trades, master of none" basically. There is a reason they were considered good when spammed but aren't super competitive in smaller numbers. Tyrants can do everything (move, psychic, shoot, assault) reasonably well but they pay a premium for the ability to do so. The main issue is as you said, they are a huge target for the opponent. In a spam list it wasn't as large a concern since each Tyrant provided threat saturation for the others, but alone there isn't really any other Tyranid model that can compare in terms of target priority.
I do still have a soft spot for my walking Tyrant. He still sees play from time to time as a gunline overseer with Kronos or Jormungandr. He doesn't care about snipers as much as the Prime or Malanthrope and brings a more appropriate backfield weapon with the Stranglethorn or HVC.
I agree with what Strat said just wanted to point out, Carnifexes are pretty self sufficient even concerning Synapse, it will help but Instinctive Behavior still doesn't bother them a whole lot since they are gunning for the screens anyway
More of a rule question I guess but anyway the stratagem overrun. Can you use it when you are still in combat with something and even more crucially can you use it to get out of combat with the enemy?
Today when I faced tyranids we weren't sure on that but he opted in the end not leave combat but if he could leave that could be pretty nasty. Basically stealers charged into IG squad(couldn't reach anything else rolling just 6" for charge though he tagged several more units as charge targets). My knight heroic intervened. Unsurprisingly IG soldiers died so he wondered could he avoid gallant attacks with the stratagem but ended up staying in combat in the end. I was totally ??? on that one. Gut feeling says you can't leave combat though rest could move with it.
Well he got rewarded in the end hitting something like 12 times and rolling 6 6's so he got piled of wounds which helped him to later bring gallant down. Though he got 2 big bugs(big one that becomes better after killing infantry in cc and 12 battle cannon shot that tried to kill in charge and did get down to 4 wounds) and unit of gaunts before succuming to rupture cannon(and more importantly it's heavy bolter kind shots that caused whopping 3 wounds despite knight's 2+ save...So much for that relic!)
Those T8 shooty bugs always in cover were giving me quite a bit of grief :-/
The stratagem specifics you can't be within 3" of another unit for it to work. So if you're in combat, it doesn't work. I can't understand how there is any question involved here, did you just not bother reading the rule or am I completely misunderstanding this question or something?
They probably just read about the strat from others and wanted to try it.
Overrun is literally just that; you overrunning your opponents lines to strike deeper.
Its meant to show a swarm of tyranids killing the front line defenders and pouring past them in an endless wave.
In game, if you destroy the units you have charged, you then get an additional move with the unit you were fighting with. If combed with something like kraken genestealers you have tremendous potential.
Charge everything within 12", but only move up and attack the screens. Mulch them to bits. Overrun to move up even more and into a better position 2-3" away from everything else you charged, then fight again for 3 CP and mulch some more.
It rarely works out in such a perfect manor, but you could also use the strat to run away into a safer position instead of fighting twice.
Charge everything within 12", but only move up and attack the screens. Mulch them to bits. Overrun to move up even more and into a better position 2-3" away from everything else you charged, then fight again for 3 CP and mulch some more.
It rarely works out in such a perfect manor, but you could also use the strat to run away into a safer position instead of fighting twice.
Here it didn't work as i had positioned knight close enough if he attacks screen hard to avoid the heroic intervene helped by somewhat low roll on charge that even after double move struggled to reach since he had well over 30" to cross
Cost tons of wounds on the knight though which proved fatal for the knight
A3d how was thbre question? That's what you get when oppoeent has no codex and relies on battlescribe.
lindsay40k wrote: My Behemoth got butchered by World Eaters last week
Most because she kept rolling 10-12 on her own rerolled charges, but also because Rupturefex whiffed most of its work
I’ve posted above that I’m looking at switching it for an Exocrine, especially in sub-1500pt games
It’s been remarked that it outperforms exact against T8. How do Biovores and rupturefexen compare, points per damage, against hard targets?
So you get about 5 biovore per rupturefex. Average hit is 1mw so 2.5 mw plus 2.5 floating mines. Rupture cannon stationary causes 2 wounds vs t8 at -3. Assuming imperial knight they can have 4++ so 3.5 damage. 5++ 4.666 damage. No inv save 5.8333.
Biovore also leaves mnes around, shoots out of los and is easy to hide.dies easily to indirect fire weapons like thundercannon.
I've had a lot of success with Jormu shooty nids, as I have found it hard to claim the reroll 1s on most nids barring rupturefexs, and the extra pip of armour can make all the difference in the attrition game combined with venomthropes.
Ooor, take a Kronos detatch and a Jorman detatch, one for shooting, one for camping on objectives.
a month ago I'd have said Jorm hands down, these days Kronos is a real contendor with symbiostorm and Exocrine combo. I think both are viable. Malanthrope bubble also granting ignoring all cover is a nice buff from Jorm too.
if playing for fun then choose the paint scheme you would rather paint.
If playing competitively then choose Kronos. The reason why is Iron Warriors + Auspex Scan completely negate any Jormungandr advantages and you will see IW at tournaments in droves for the foreseeable future as its now a looooooong wait to Chapter Approved 2020 or 9th edition before a potential nerf (if any).
Got around to reading the Nid rules in battle for baal.
Is it me or are 90% of them total trash? And I do mean trash.
Out of two pages of stratagems, 2 pages of physiologies and a page of artifacts I can pick maybe 5 that are decent or semi competitive.
The rest I was sort of agog at. Considering what SMs and Eldar got its a bit depressing =/
Depends on what your shooting beasts are. Kronos is best for mostly-static fire support with good range (Hive Guard, Biovores, Exocrine, Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex, Biocannon Carnifex/Tyrant) since you loose the perk when you move. If you have a lot of short-range shooters (Dakkafex/DakkaTyrant, Termagants, Thornback, Shockguard, Warriors, Sporocyst with Deathspitters, Tyrannofex with Acid Spray/Fleshborer Hive) Jormungandr will generally do better since units can still move into firing range and still benefit from the trait. The added durability is also nice for these units, since they have to expose themselves to more fire than their long ranged counterparts.
Another consideration is whether you want the entire army to use a single adaptation or not. Jormungandr is generally best off running as a mono-Hive Fleet for threat saturation and being able to use their deepstrike shenanigans to the fullest, while Kronos is happy to mix in with other fleets that can do stuff for your melee assets. Last consideration is how much of your army has fly. Jormungandr does more-or-less nothing for flyers while Kronos provides its adaptation ability and can use flying creatures as speedy vectors for the Deepest Shadow.
I suppose in short, if you want to dominate the midfield Jormungandr is appealing, while a more traditional sit-back-and-shoot gunline is Kronos' specialty.
if playing for fun then choose the paint scheme you would rather paint.
If playing competitively then choose Kronos. The reason why is Iron Warriors + Auspex Scan completely negate any Jormungandr advantages and you will see IW at tournaments in droves for the foreseeable future as its now a looooooong wait to Chapter Approved 2020 or 9th edition before a potential nerf (if any).
On one hand you're right, on the other hand, Jorm also gets the option to completely ignore cover from things like the Raven Guard match up and do it back to em. I still think you're probably right, and Kronos is ahead for the reason that our Hive Fleet trait is important and just having it entirely cancelled in some match ups would suck, just pointing this out.
Depends on what your shooting beasts are. Kronos is best for mostly-static fire support with good range (Hive Guard, Biovores, Exocrine, Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex, Biocannon Carnifex/Tyrant) since you loose the perk when you move. If you have a lot of short-range shooters (Dakkafex/DakkaTyrant, Termagants, Thornback, Shockguard, Warriors, Sporocyst with Deathspitters, Tyrannofex with Acid Spray/Fleshborer Hive) Jormungandr will generally do better since units can still move into firing range and still benefit from the trait. The added durability is also nice for these units, since they have to expose themselves to more fire than their long ranged counterparts.
This is flat out wrong imo. The absolute last thing you want for a unit with 18" range, assault weapons, and bonuses that you can take to advancing, is to be walking up the field. Even a single turn's difference is a turn of firepower you don't have to weather and an extra turn of shooting they do. You want things like Tyrannofex and Dakkafex, Thornback etc to be Kraken, no exceptions.
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Ratius wrote: Got around to reading the Nid rules in battle for baal.
Is it me or are 90% of them total trash? And I do mean trash. Out of two pages of stratagems, 2 pages of physiologies and a page of artifacts I can pick maybe 5 that are decent or semi competitive.
The rest I was sort of agog at. Considering what SMs and Eldar got its a bit depressing =/
It's you.
We got more than any other faction so far, except for stuff like BA, and we knew they'd be getting brought in line with the SM dex eventually they just bundled it into the PA book. Plenty of great rules for us.
This is flat out wrong imo. The absolute last thing you want for a unit with 18" range, assault weapons, and bonuses that you can take to advancing, is to be walking up the field. Even a single turn's difference is a turn of firepower you don't have to weather and an extra turn of shooting they do. You want things like Tyrannofex and Dakkafex, Thornback etc to be Kraken, no exceptions.
That's fair. I was thinking mostly from a perspective of the two fleets. Most of my experiences with Kronos is that they don't do the close range shooting very well because of the necessity of movement while Jormungandr is reasonable at it (mostly thinking from the perspective of infantry admittedly, but Jormungandr Carni spam was popular for a little while).
Say it was a spearhead detachment (the main one being Kraken) that had Hive Guard, Dakkafexes and an Exocrine. And would Sporocysts benefit from Hive Fleet abilities?
Trying to figure out if +1 to saves or re-roll 1's is better there...
If it is working in conjunction with Kraken I'd advise Kronos (as mentioned prior). Jormungandr doesn't play very well with other Hive Fleets in my experience (either breaks your target saturation or doesn't have enough points allocated to use to the fullest).
As Nitro Zeus said, probably put the Carnifexes in your existing Kraken detachment and see about squeezing in another Exocrine or some Biovores to fill the rest of the heavy slots.
I had one tryout game directly after BoB dropped and went full combo on a exocrine on Kronos with symbiostorm and the +D3 MW . Very situational, but that thing MURDER scouts and primaris MSU
Strat_N8 wrote: As Nitro Zeus said, probably put the Carnifexes in your existing Kraken detachment and see about squeezing in another Exocrine or some Biovores to fill the rest of the heavy slots.
I did just order two more Exocrine kits... so I could do three!
I got over my knee jerking and have laid out thoughts below.
Spoiler:
Resonance barb – B+
Very useful to put on level 1 psykers. Less useful on level 2s.
The +1 to cast is a welcome bonus.
Xeno acid – C+
Situational - you need to have talons equipped and put it on a model with a high number of attacks to maximise the benefits (and then of course actually make it into HtH).
Venom parasite – B+
On a good weapons platform a very good ability. Decreases the swingyness of those weapons.
Pathogenesis – B
Pretty decent. The extra range is nice in a gunline and free rerolls are always welcome.
Arach gland – C-
Meh. Nids usually have enough movement enchancing shenanigans as it is.
Bio artifacts – Overall a solid B.
Grasping tendrils – E
Requires a Toxi tax, for it to be in HtH, cant lock down units with min moves, can fail on a 1-2 and simply denies a fallback move? Junk.
Why not make this applicable to any Nid unit?
Symbiotic devastation – B+
Does what it says on the tin. Nice and cheap too for 1CP.
Surprise ambush – C+
Quite a nice ability but limited to Lictors only hence the C+. Lictor also has to be in terrain or deepstriking which limits it further.
Why not allow it on any units and make it say 2 CP?
Feral instincts – C
Hormies are still sub optimal imo. An ok ability if you can get it stacking with some of the other –AP abilities but again situational.
Why limit to Hormies?
Feeding the hunger - D
Gets a D because its limited to the dire Haruspex.
Again why not make it army wide?
Unexpected incursion – B
Pretty decent actually. On a 4+ 3 mortal wounds dealt for 1CP.
Pity it cant stack by spending more points to allow more Mawlocs to do it.
Buried threats – B
For 1CP not bad. Rippers due to size can be hard to hit anyway so increasing that survivability is always welcome.
Savage distraction – A
Used correctly this could be great. And very cheap too for 1CP.
Hive instinct – D
Requires an enemy unit to be in HtH with synapse creatures only, only works if you target said enemy unit and allows an extra dice?
Very meh. If your synapse units are getting caught in HtH, you have bigger problems than this.
Unyielding chitin – B
Decent because its cheap.
But again why limit it to Warriors? Make it army wide unit-wise.
Encephalic diffusion - D
Needs a maleceptor tax, only 6” range and costs 2 CP? Junk.
Aggressive adaptation – B
Pretty decent and cheap.
Synaptic channeling – B
Does what it says on the tin. Tactically quite useful.
Skyswarm fusilade – C
Gargs. Pistols. Nothing else? Meh.
Psychic fissure – A-
Gets the minus because its limited to 12” but very nice.
Hunters drive – B-
Again, Nids usually have enough movement abilities so situational.
Stratagems – Overall probably a C. Very frustrating that many of them weren’t made army-wide or tweaked slightly for more tactical use. Their biggest advantage is that they are mostly very cheap at 1CP.
Worst point is that many of them are too situational.
Adaptive Exoskeleton – B
Decent but again why not army-wide? Deathskulls get this + extra bonuses, so do Eldar, IH have it baked in too.
Frustrating that its limited to fairly poor gribblies.
Bestial Nature - E
+2 attacks in the lowest wound bracket? You wont be hitting anyway…..
Junk.
Bio-metallic Cysts – B-
Decent if you can get it to stack with other abilities but again require scythes to use.
Biosphere Consumption – B
Good for gunline monsters. But once again…..why not make this army wide?
Cranial Channelling – C-
A single reroll a psychic turn? Can only reroll the full result and not individual dice? Meh
Feeding Frenzy – B-
Decent but with HtH in general being in a bad place, will require a specific build - situational.
Horror from Beyond - C
Why limited to monsters (again)?
Hypermetabolic Acceleration - B
Pretty decent.
Membranous Mobility – C+
Could be very good if Gargs get off their blinding venom but again…..too situational. Also limited to fly units only.
Metamorphic Regrowth - B
Not bad to be fair.
Morphic Sinews – B-
Good for Nidzillas.
Pack Hunters – B-
Again, good if you can get it stacking with other –AP abilities. Poor if not.
Prey-sight – A
Very good.
Senses of the Outer Dark – A
Very very good.
Shrewd Predators – C
Possibly useful in certain circumstances but not enough to justify it as a choice.
Sporemist Spines – C
See above.
Synaptic Augmentation – C+
Decent but limited to 6” and a single reroll isnt that good. If it stacks slightly better.
Adapations – Overall a C to a B. Again they just didn’t go far enough compared to what else is currently out there. Several of them also don’t synergise well for an “overall army build”. One may be good in sitation X but the second dosent help at all. One might be good in situation Y but the second is not etc.
They don’t seem to be built with any over arching themes in mind which is frustrating.
Enhanced Resistance – B
Decent considering the marine –AP meta currently.
Adrenal Webs – C
2d6 make it much too swingy. Why not just make it a flat 6.
Abhorrent Pheremones – B-
Pretty good but needs to have other abilities stacked for maximum effect.
Dynamic Camouflage – B-
Decent.
Unnatural Reactions – B
Decent.
Dermic Symbiosis – A
Very good ability considering many monsters don’t have any inv.
Voracious Ammunition – B-
Could be decent to finish off a unit but hardly game changing.
Synaptic Enhancement – B
Pretty good. More SitW never hurts.
Murderous Size – B -
Useful on the right weapons platform.
Physiologies – Overall a B. Considering Nid warlord traits are relatively poor with a few exceptions – most of these are fairly solid and useable.
Honestly I play orks and nids, and i still feel orks are currently vasty superior to nids (even to nids + GSC) in most of the current meta's MUs. Orks haven't even had their PA yet, whereas nids have...
I tired everything "usable" (there honeslty isn't much) in Ratius's list, and it all seems very limited. The huge thing here is the -1 damage to tyranid warriors and the ignore ap1 and ap2, making 12 or 18 (6 will not have adaptive trit but that is ok, you can catalyse them to compensate) very hard to shift.
The rest has severe limitations, even the kronos psychic power falls flat on its face when you have -1 to hit. The maleceptor strat is good but the CP and point investment, after a few games, makes you wonder if 1 cp for that strat would not have been better game design. Mawloc strat, if you have a few gen cult snipers, or a few biovores, is pretty good to take down some stuff but slightly unreliable, and some armies can zone him out. Might be really good during the last game of a tournament when your opponent will be tired, forget about that 104 point model, and expose a few characters to good old MawMaw (actually my cat's name hah hah, I wasn't even the one to give him that name)
A to custom hive fleets, well at first you think a small batallion of this or a small spearhead of that might be good, but then you realise you are just better off with gen cult stuff, which brings more to the table than any custom hive fleet might bring. Perhaps 6++ for 300 model gaunt carpets can do some work but who on earth wants to move 300 models around ??
What I am really pissed off about is that nids got better a shooting with tha kronos buff, and shooting MCs can now withstand some shooting so they can return fire better, but nids got nothing to make them worthwhile as an assault army. hell I even bought another toxicrene when the rumors on BoB dropped, and painted it and all... i wanted to believe ! If toxi drops to like 90 points, perhaps 100 points, we will see some play with that strat. but unitil then...
If we had OOE or swarmy still capable of damage 4 attacks, at least we coul have had something for assault centurions. But GW said no, go fluff yourself npc faction players
This list hopefully utilizes the new Adaptations to good effect for each detachment. The Hive Fleet Getrekticus battalion rushes the Prime, Warriors and Hormagaunt units forward, scampering up the table to engage as quickly as possible to sink the shiny new AP-1/-2 scything talons into everything in sight. Drop Feral Instincts on a big hormie unit for some AP-3 lulz. Consume everything in your path! The Neurothrope sits back and provides psychic support for the Hive Guard (which, while unchanged, are still very good at what they do). Smash captain gets too close? Cook him down with a Smite – you know the routine. Hive Fleet Gitgudimus has the warlord forsake his Warlord Trait for Adaptive Physiology and spends a CP for a second one. Either give both Exocrines a 5++ or give one the 5++ and the other SYNAPSE if you feel like you can pull off Hunter’s Drive to boost a unit of Carnies into a tasty target. The Carnifexes bowling ball forward, supported by the Hive Tyrant. Apply Savage Distraction when appropriate and Aggressive Adaptation the first time each unit makes a kill.
I got over my knee jerking and have laid out thoughts below.
Spoiler:
Resonance barb – B+
Very useful to put on level 1 psykers. Less useful on level 2s.
The +1 to cast is a welcome bonus.
Xeno acid – C+
Situational - you need to have talons equipped and put it on a model with a high number of attacks to maximise the benefits (and then of course actually make it into HtH).
Venom parasite – B+
On a good weapons platform a very good ability. Decreases the swingyness of those weapons.
Pathogenesis – B
Pretty decent. The extra range is nice in a gunline and free rerolls are always welcome.
Arach gland – C-
Meh. Nids usually have enough movement enchancing shenanigans as it is.
Bio artifacts – Overall a solid B.
Grasping tendrils – E
Requires a Toxi tax, for it to be in HtH, cant lock down units with min moves, can fail on a 1-2 and simply denies a fallback move? Junk.
Why not make this applicable to any Nid unit?
Symbiotic devastation – B+
Does what it says on the tin. Nice and cheap too for 1CP.
Surprise ambush – C+
Quite a nice ability but limited to Lictors only hence the C+. Lictor also has to be in terrain or deepstriking which limits it further.
Why not allow it on any units and make it say 2 CP?
Feral instincts – C
Hormies are still sub optimal imo. An ok ability if you can get it stacking with some of the other –AP abilities but again situational.
Why limit to Hormies?
Feeding the hunger - D
Gets a D because its limited to the dire Haruspex.
Again why not make it army wide?
Unexpected incursion – B
Pretty decent actually. On a 4+ 3 mortal wounds dealt for 1CP.
Pity it cant stack by spending more points to allow more Mawlocs to do it.
Buried threats – B
For 1CP not bad. Rippers due to size can be hard to hit anyway so increasing that survivability is always welcome.
Savage distraction – A
Used correctly this could be great. And very cheap too for 1CP.
Hive instinct – D
Requires an enemy unit to be in HtH with synapse creatures only, only works if you target said enemy unit and allows an extra dice?
Very meh. If your synapse units are getting caught in HtH, you have bigger problems than this.
Unyielding chitin – B
Decent because its cheap.
But again why limit it to Warriors? Make it army wide unit-wise.
Encephalic diffusion - D
Needs a maleceptor tax, only 6” range and costs 2 CP? Junk.
Aggressive adaptation – B
Pretty decent and cheap.
Synaptic channeling – B
Does what it says on the tin. Tactically quite useful.
Skyswarm fusilade – C
Gargs. Pistols. Nothing else? Meh.
Psychic fissure – A-
Gets the minus because its limited to 12” but very nice.
Hunters drive – B-
Again, Nids usually have enough movement abilities so situational.
Stratagems – Overall probably a C. Very frustrating that many of them weren’t made army-wide or tweaked slightly for more tactical use. Their biggest advantage is that they are mostly very cheap at 1CP.
Worst point is that many of them are too situational.
Adaptive Exoskeleton – B
Decent but again why not army-wide? Deathskulls get this + extra bonuses, so do Eldar, IH have it baked in too.
Frustrating that its limited to fairly poor gribblies.
Bestial Nature - E
+2 attacks in the lowest wound bracket? You wont be hitting anyway…..
Junk.
Bio-metallic Cysts – B-
Decent if you can get it to stack with other abilities but again require scythes to use.
Biosphere Consumption – B
Good for gunline monsters. But once again…..why not make this army wide?
Cranial Channelling – C-
A single reroll a psychic turn? Can only reroll the full result and not individual dice? Meh
Feeding Frenzy – B-
Decent but with HtH in general being in a bad place, will require a specific build - situational.
Horror from Beyond - C
Why limited to monsters (again)?
Hypermetabolic Acceleration - B
Pretty decent.
Membranous Mobility – C+
Could be very good if Gargs get off their blinding venom but again…..too situational. Also limited to fly units only.
Metamorphic Regrowth - B
Not bad to be fair.
Morphic Sinews – B-
Good for Nidzillas.
Pack Hunters – B-
Again, good if you can get it stacking with other –AP abilities. Poor if not.
Prey-sight – A
Very good.
Senses of the Outer Dark – A
Very very good.
Shrewd Predators – C
Possibly useful in certain circumstances but not enough to justify it as a choice.
Sporemist Spines – C
See above.
Synaptic Augmentation – C+
Decent but limited to 6” and a single reroll isnt that good. If it stacks slightly better.
Adapations – Overall a C to a B. Again they just didn’t go far enough compared to what else is currently out there. Several of them also don’t synergise well for an “overall army build”. One may be good in sitation X but the second dosent help at all. One might be good in situation Y but the second is not etc.
They don’t seem to be built with any over arching themes in mind which is frustrating.
Enhanced Resistance – B
Decent considering the marine –AP meta currently.
Adrenal Webs – C
2d6 make it much too swingy. Why not just make it a flat 6.
Abhorrent Pheremones – B-
Pretty good but needs to have other abilities stacked for maximum effect.
Dynamic Camouflage – B-
Decent.
Unnatural Reactions – B
Decent.
Dermic Symbiosis – A
Very good ability considering many monsters don’t have any inv.
Voracious Ammunition – B-
Could be decent to finish off a unit but hardly game changing.
Synaptic Enhancement – B
Pretty good. More SitW never hurts.
Murderous Size – B -
Useful on the right weapons platform.
Physiologies – Overall a B. Considering Nid warlord traits are relatively poor with a few exceptions – most of these are fairly solid and useable.
There is LOTS of good stuff in the PA book for us.
Lots of decent stuff for « comp but not not too comp » play certainly.
High level player tournament where everyone brings the absolute best stuff they can lay their (iron) hands on ? Then it is « some good stuff ». Honestly...
This list hopefully utilizes the new Adaptations to good effect for each detachment. The Hive Fleet Getrekticus battalion rushes the Prime, Warriors and Hormagaunt units forward, scampering up the table to engage as quickly as possible to sink the shiny new AP-1/-2 scything talons into everything in sight. Drop Feral Instincts on a big hormie unit for some AP-3 lulz. Consume everything in your path! The Neurothrope sits back and provides psychic support for the Hive Guard (which, while unchanged, are still very good at what they do). Smash captain gets too close? Cook him down with a Smite – you know the routine. Hive Fleet Gitgudimus has the warlord forsake his Warlord Trait for Adaptive Physiology and spends a CP for a second one. Either give both Exocrines a 5++ or give one the 5++ and the other SYNAPSE if you feel like you can pull off Hunter’s Drive to boost a unit of Carnies into a tasty target. The Carnifexes bowling ball forward, supported by the Hive Tyrant. Apply Savage Distraction when appropriate and Aggressive Adaptation the first time each unit makes a kill.
Update your battlescribe, those warriors and exocrines cost less than that.
This list hopefully utilizes the new Adaptations to good effect for each detachment. The Hive Fleet Getrekticus battalion rushes the Prime, Warriors and Hormagaunt units forward, scampering up the table to engage as quickly as possible to sink the shiny new AP-1/-2 scything talons into everything in sight. Drop Feral Instincts on a big hormie unit for some AP-3 lulz. Consume everything in your path! The Neurothrope sits back and provides psychic support for the Hive Guard (which, while unchanged, are still very good at what they do). Smash captain gets too close? Cook him down with a Smite – you know the routine. Hive Fleet Gitgudimus has the warlord forsake his Warlord Trait for Adaptive Physiology and spends a CP for a second one. Either give both Exocrines a 5++ or give one the 5++ and the other SYNAPSE if you feel like you can pull off Hunter’s Drive to boost a unit of Carnies into a tasty target. The Carnifexes bowling ball forward, supported by the Hive Tyrant. Apply Savage Distraction when appropriate and Aggressive Adaptation the first time each unit makes a kill.
I might be missing something here, but the point costs on some of your units seems to be to high.
Sporocysts really aren't too bad for the price. 3 of them could be a fair bit of fun if you put units of a similar defensive profile on the board, and make them choose between either, a few turns of triple spores could really start to block up the field while they try clear out your Exocrines and Dakkafex instead or whatever. Double down on that with Biovores which are just a nice unit in the first place, and you could really fill the field up. A couple of battalions then 90 Gargs on top of that could be really hilarious and just leave no board space left to play.
I think - think - I have 70 Gargoyles. Somewhere. I can't find them all.
As far as Biovores go, y'know, I don't own any. There has literally never been a Biovore miniature I've liked. I have two of the weird spawn points from the Battle for McDonald's box (pictured here) which I've thought about using as Biovores, but never actually have.
My plan was always to take the dozens of spare Bio Cannons left over, some shards of cut up soda bottle and basing to have subterranean Biovores that burst up through the ground and fire off spores.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think - think - I have 70 Gargoyles. Somewhere. I can't find them all.
As far as Biovores go, y'know, I don't own any. There has literally never been a Biovore miniature I've liked. I have two of the weird spawn points from the Battle for McDonald's box (pictured here) which I've thought about using as Biovores, but never actually have.
Biovores are definitely great in a board control list. Four of them dancing as they shoot whilst acting instinctively can guarantee a blockade of a key unit. Have you considered building Warriors as stooping quadrupeds with a big bio-cannon aimed upwards?
Played my first Tyranid game since Blood of Baal and...that Maleceptor strat is pretty great. I ran a monster-mash list, and big gun that would normally be wounding on 3s and 4s suddenly wounding on 4s and 5s was super satisfying (for me...not so much my opponent)
I also tried out some custom adaptations, namely: Morphic Sinews and Prey Sight. Gotta say, not suffering negatives for moving and shooting heavy weapons, or advancing and shooting assault weapons really helps take the sting off our sometimes subpar shooting. Also, +1 to hit in assault after charging or being charged REALLY helps out tyranids.
Voidwraith wrote: Played my first Tyranid game since Blood of Baal and...that Maleceptor strat is pretty great. I ran a monster-mash list, and big gun that would normally be wounding on 3s and 4s suddenly wounding on 4s and 5s was super satisfying (for me...not so much my opponent)
I also tried out some custom adaptations, namely: Morphic Sinews and Prey Sight. Gotta say, not suffering negatives for moving and shooting heavy weapons, or advancing and shooting assault weapons really helps take the sting off our sometimes subpar shooting. Also, +1 to hit in assault after charging or being charged REALLY helps out tyranids.
I'm really liking our new rules.
Yeah ive done some theory crafting and I may need to pick one of these guys up. It can definitely increase surviability. Malantrhope, with Malenceptor in middle and then run hordes of Gants with the 6+ invul. Cast Catalyst on one, take 4+ FNp vs overwatch. ALso the enhanced PA warriors with a malanthrope and Malenceptor aura buff.
Did he get targeted? I figure once the player knows what he does he become target priory #1, and other than catalyst on him, not to much we can do to protect him.
Voidwraith wrote: Played my first Tyranid game since Blood of Baal and...that Maleceptor strat is pretty great. I ran a monster-mash list, and big gun that would normally be wounding on 3s and 4s suddenly wounding on 4s and 5s was super satisfying (for me...not so much my opponent)
I also tried out some custom adaptations, namely: Morphic Sinews and Prey Sight. Gotta say, not suffering negatives for moving and shooting heavy weapons, or advancing and shooting assault weapons really helps take the sting off our sometimes subpar shooting. Also, +1 to hit in assault after charging or being charged REALLY helps out tyranids.
I'm really liking our new rules.
Yeah ive done some theory crafting and I may need to pick one of these guys up. It can definitely increase surviability. Malantrhope, with Malenceptor in middle and then run hordes of Gants with the 6+ invul. Cast Catalyst on one, take 4+ FNp vs overwatch. ALso the enhanced PA warriors with a malanthrope and Malenceptor aura buff.
Did he get targeted? I figure once the player knows what he does he become target priory #1, and other than catalyst on him, not to much we can do to protect him.
No, he was barely targeted. My opponent's target priority was the Exocrine, who managed to stick around till turn 3 despite 3 plagueburst crawlers mortars raining down upon him because of the 5++ (Dermic Symbiosis adaptive physiology) and the Maleceptor's strat helping keep him on the board (I think he took 5 wounds turn 1, 5 turn 2, and then one plagueburst crawler finished him off turn 3 when I had no more command points left).
It would have been nice to see the results of him targeting the Maleceptor, as I'm wondering if it'd be worth running two of them. At T7, many of the bigger guns would still be wounding on 4s (maybe even 3s), but he's got the 4++ to help mitigate it. Also, losing him doesn't really hurt me, as the real damage from my monster mash list comes from the rest of the big beasties getting forward and into my opponent's lines. Meanwhile, if he's left alone, he's also in my opponent's lines and gets to either smite or brain burst for mortal wound goodness, and since I'm using the Prey Sight custom adaptation, his measly 3 attacks actually hit on 3s, so there's a decent chance he'll actually get a few of those D6 damage attacks through...
I dunno, there's a lot of play with the new Tyranid rules. I can't wait until their actual codex gets an update. Some non-Kronos rerolls to hit would be nice...
In a competitive setting, not at all. People are still teching against IK and IW and you can reasonably expect to lose an Exocrine each turn from shooting or smash captain-like tactics. Redundancy of a good unit isn't bad. The weak link is the Malanthrope with the amount of snipers being played as 3x troops choices right now. You're better off with a Neurothrope to cast Symbiostorm on them.
In a competitive setting, not at all. People are still teching against IK and IW and you can reasonably expect to lose an Exocrine each turn from shooting or smash captain-like tactics. Redundancy of a good unit isn't bad. The weak link is the Malanthrope with the amount of snipers being played as 3x troops choices right now. You're better off with a Neurothrope to cast Symbiostorm on them.
Apart from the need of filling an HQ slot, I'd actually say go with a Malceptor for psychic support. They get +1 to casting attempts built-in for Symbiostorm and the Encephalic Diffusion is really good with T8 bugs (shuts down mass S5 guns and mitigates S8 and S9).
I do think going forward most of my lists are going to start with a Malceptor and a full brood of Venomthropes (max coverage, holds out the benefit for monsters until the last 2 models). Stacking -1 strength and -1 to hit goes a long way towards keeping things alive.
My local group has someone selling a bunch of termagants and I've always wanted a horde army, so I was wondering if the gaunt carpet lists are still viable and what people are choosing to run in them atm?
I bought a Maleceptor on Monday and it showed up in the mail today. I didn't come in a Toxicrene/Maleceptor box, but a generic white Citadel Miniature box.
I don't know if that means anything, but I thought I'd mention it.
everything I've ever ordered online came in the generic white citadel miniature box
Automatically Appended Next Post: they don't need to waste money on flashy boxes displaying the models and encouraging purchases, if you're not actually in store to see it
Nitro Zeus wrote: everything I've ever ordered online came in the generic white citadel miniature box
That surprises me.
Nitro Zeus wrote: they don't need to waste money on flashy boxes displaying the models and encouraging purchases, if you're not actually in store to see it
Except that would require them to keep two different sets of stock, one in boxes and one in generic boxes. Not only does that not make any sense, inventory and picking orders would be far more tedious if everything is in the same white box.
Nitro Zeus wrote: everything I've ever ordered online came in the generic white citadel miniature box
That surprises me.
Nitro Zeus wrote: they don't need to waste money on flashy boxes displaying the models and encouraging purchases, if you're not actually in store to see it
Except that would require them to keep two different sets of stock, one in boxes and one in generic boxes. Not only does that not make any sense, inventory and picking orders would be far more tedious if everything is in the same white box.
Except that we are talking about online only models, there is no two different stocks, only one. And they aren't paying premium for boxes whose only purpose is to sit in the inventory before being shipped.
asobitaii wrote: My local group has someone selling a bunch of termagants and I've always wanted a horde army, so I was wondering if the gaunt carpet lists are still viable and what people are choosing to run in them atm?
They can still do work by holding vast chunks of table, they mostly find a home in Kronos as that is the "shooty" hive fleet. It kind of depends on how competative your local meta is....
The issue with the horde style lists is in order to do it and succeed you need a LOT of little guys. Something like 150 to 200+ to have enough bodies to make it work. These lists can be fun to play, but it takes substantial assembly/painting time and they play slow.
Trying to make a horde army work at a competive level takes a great deal of practice simply moving the models so that you can finish on time. You need to get good at fast dice, and efficiently moving squads, and at having your entire turn planned before it starts.
So in theory the carpet of bugs builds are viable, but the execution is logistically tricky.
I mean it's not a theory that they are viable. Erik Lathouras has had a great run of success with them. It's just a challenge to play and a lot of people would rather complain that there army can't compete rather than level up.
babelfish wrote:The issue with the horde style lists is in order to do it and succeed you need a LOT of little guys. Something like 150 to 200+ to have enough bodies to make it work. These lists can be fun to play, but it takes substantial assembly/painting time and they play slow.
Trying to make a horde army work at a competive level takes a great deal of practice simply moving the models so that you can finish on time. You need to get good at fast dice, and efficiently moving squads, and at having your entire turn planned before it starts.
So in theory the carpet of bugs builds are viable, but the execution is logistically tricky.
babelfish wrote:The issue with the horde style lists is in order to do it and succeed you need a LOT of little guys. Something like 150 to 200+ to have enough bodies to make it work. These lists can be fun to play, but it takes substantial assembly/painting time and they play slow.
Trying to make a horde army work at a competive level takes a great deal of practice simply moving the models so that you can finish on time. You need to get good at fast dice, and efficiently moving squads, and at having your entire turn planned before it starts.
So in theory the carpet of bugs builds are viable, but the execution is logistically tricky.
Nitro Zeus wrote:I mean it's not a theory that they are viable. Erik Lathouras has had a great run of success with them. It's just a challenge to play and a lot of people would rather complain that there army can't compete rather than level up.
Depends on the setup, for example; ITC secondary missions makes it difficult because you lose so much points before you can earn them back. Maybe if you focus on getting:
'engineers' : two selected units that controle an objective.
'king of the hill': two units that claim the center of the board.
'recon': a unit in each table quarter.
Each space marine army got a thunderfire cannon these days and that slows down 2 units (halve movement and advance). Also the increase in ealdari vibro cannons doesn't help (no advance). Iron hand Master of the forge with 3 stormtalon gunships with assault cannons don't care about the -1 to hit malanthrope. That's about 500+ points that kill's about 30+ gaunts each turn.
Nitro Zeus wrote:I mean it's not a theory that they are viable. Erik Lathouras has had a great run of success with them. It's just a challenge to play and a lot of people would rather complain that there army can't compete rather than level up.
Depends on the setup, for example; ITC secondary missions makes it difficult because you lose so much points before you can earn them back. Maybe if you focus on getting:
'engineers' : two selected units that controle an objective. 'king of the hill': two units that claim the center of the board. 'recon': a unit in each table quarter.
He got 1st place at 150 man ITC tournament with it, and iirc correctly has never even not gotten top 4 in every single ITC tournament he's entered with horde nids, so obviously the format isn't holding back any of that viability.
Red Terror? GSC with no Patriarch? 120 Brood Brothers with no Patriach bubble? Malanthrope instead of Venomthrope with a board control list? 20 man units instead of 30 man? Triple Lictors?
This is a pretty... interesting attempt that's for sure.
Nitro Zeus wrote:I mean it's not a theory that they are viable. Erik Lathouras has had a great run of success with them. It's just a challenge to play and a lot of people would rather complain that there army can't compete rather than level up.
Depends on the setup, for example; ITC secondary missions makes it difficult because you lose so much points before you can earn them back. Maybe if you focus on getting:
'engineers' : two selected units that controle an objective.
'king of the hill': two units that claim the center of the board.
'recon': a unit in each table quarter.
He got 1st place at 150 man ITC tournament with it, and iirc correctly has never even not gotten top 4 in every single ITC tournament he's entered with horde nids, so obviously the format isn't holding back any of that viability.
Did he also played against the current space marine lists out there? Would like to see the setup and opponent lists.
Red Terror? GSC with no Patriarch? 120 Brood Brothers with no Patriach bubble? Malanthrope instead of Venomthrope with a board control list? 20 man units instead of 30 man? Triple Lictors?
This is a pretty... interesting attempt that's for sure.
Red terror and lictors are just there to keep claiming table quarters,
Malanthrope with -1 to hit kraken relic can keep pushing forward, maybe even with catalyst if needed, Venomthropes can be picked out and shot down,
Gaunts above 20 count as Powerlevel 9 and then the enemy can claim secondary objective points for them.
You are right about the patriarch. Probably would remove 'the red terror' and switch the magus with a patriarch. Didn't really care about the fearless bubble if you want to drop them in and claim stuff all over the place. But it is nice to have the 'fearless option'.
He got 1st place at 150 man ITC tournament with it, and iirc correctly has never even not gotten top 4 in every single ITC tournament he's entered with horde nids, so obviously the format isn't holding back any of that viability.
Did he also played against the current space marine lists out there? Would like to see the setup and opponent lists.
Couldn't tell you honestly. I know he's been building into GSC for a while because he wanted to play pure GSC, I think he swapped over recently. My response was just to the part where you thought it might be a format thing, Space Marines might be a problem but I imagine they will be for anything Tyranids do, above all it's definitely not that the list struggles with the format.
Malanthrope with -1 to hit kraken relic can keep pushing forward, maybe even with catalyst if needed, Venomthropes can be picked out and shot down
To be fair, the current competitive environment has a lot of anti-character tech floating around so the durability difference is somewhat marginal depending on matchup. You can get 4 Venomthropes for the same cost as a single Mananthrope which gives 4(?) more wounds and much wider spore coverage. I'm also not sure if venoms being targeted is entirely a bad thing in the context of your wider list. You are basically trying to overwhelm the anti-infantry guns and any shots being directed at Venomthropes are shots not going into Hive Guard or Termagants (would be better with more mid-sized bugs like Warriors for threat saturation, but still).
I am admittedly biased. My general preference is to use the Malanthrope for gunline support and Venoms for forward operations.
Also as one other bit of advice, the GSC portion might be better served with Acolytes instead of Brood Brothers (I'd say Neophytes as another alternative, but they are kinda stuck until the chapter approved FAQ fixes their points). Both of your characters are keyed to work on <cult> units so they don't do anything for the Brood Brothers and even basic Acolytes bring some much needed lethality to the swarm.
Venom bubble covers much more ground, which is important when your list's only winning point is board control. You hide the Venoms out of line of sight, and spread gants out in every direction from them, trailing them back. Significantly harder with a Malanthrope, the single 3" bubble is a fraction of the size of the 6" bubble x3 that Venoms give. Every direction is important for a list like this.
Does anyone have the top list from LVO? I've got a friend looking to start building GSC/Nids competitively and was hoping to help with something to use as a template.
This year he missed out on 1st place again by a single point in the grand finals vs Iron Hands, running pure GSC. If GSC is your focus this may be worth looking at, though his horde Tyranids list is incredibly powerful too, potentially even more so.
Nitro Zeus wrote: This year he missed out on 1st place again by a single point in the grand finals vs Iron Hands, running pure GSC. If GSC is your focus this may be worth looking at, though his horde Tyranids list is incredibly powerful too, potentially even more so.
I love playing horde nids, but its incredibly exhausting metnally and physically moving all those models and rolling all those dice in an hour and 25 minute ITC game. Even with movement trays and dice app. Early games its not so much but in a 5+ game tourney it just wears you down.
This is also a pre SM meta game so not sure how it would fair today.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK. So reading through BoB again.
I found AP -5 GS or Hormagants.
Genestealers with Acid Maws are base 3.
Taking Gorgon Broodlord with power Poisonous Influence all friendly models (not hive fleet specific) gain -1 AP.
Then after their first kill use Aggressive Adaptation for another -1. Use this after killing a cheap scout/screen unit. So you have Acid Maws at AP-5. The rending claws will now be AP-3 normally with -4 on 6's to rend.
Broodlord would be on AP -4 with his claws as well.
For Hormagaunts using the same two above powers gets your scything talons to -2. Then use Feral Instincts Stratagem to get them to -3. Finally, if you take them in a custom Hive Fleet with Pack Hunters (another -1) and Biometalic Cyst for another -1 so now a total of -5. WIth 20+ Gaunts you are reroll 1s to hit and wound.
Can do some of the tricks to get Warriors with Scything Talons to potentially -4 (everything but the Feral Instincts Stratagem)
Considering running warriors with Boneswords and boost from Gorgon Power. AP -3, after they kill a unit use aggressive Adapation, so now AP-4.
This become threat priorty 1, but that ok because you ran them with a Malanthrope (-1 to hit) and a maleceptor (using the -1 Str) Stratagem. So Bolters are wound on 5's now at -1 to hit. Not to mention you took Enhanced Resistance to ignore AP-1,-2 ; thats thunderfires, whirlwinds, hurrican bolters/flamers, regular bolters. Not to mention you can pop Unyielding Chitin for -1 Dmg.
Don't forget other powers like Catalyst and the Horror for further buffs.
It’s a battalion of Swarmy + Kraken stealers tacked on to a GSC army (list posted by Goonhammer was 40 odd Acolytes and 30x Brood Brothers with support characters filling out HQ and Elites).
It basically is an archetypical GSC hybrid list using Swarmy + Stealers to pick off screens for deepstriking Acolytes which in turn provide the bulk of list’s killing power along with the Patriarch and Broodlord. Three battalions provided lots of command points to play with and the list incorporates a lot of mobile troops for holding objectives. The list is also very alpha-strike oriented, between the stealer slingshot and all of the Acolytes it hits fairly hard with volume of rending attacks. The version I saw also used the Pauper Prince which fit remarkably well with the overall archetype, since they have access to a second fearless bubble via their relic and the amount of characters gives plenty of fodder for their signature stratagem (as well as very accurate Acolytes with rerolls to hit).
I'm actually rather pleased to see it doing well, though I am sad that the Tyranid part is only present to dispatch things like Scouts and Infiltrators that otherwise hinder GSC deepstrike.
I played a local ITC RTT yesterday. I have been out of the game for six months, so I made a lot of mistakes and ended up losing all three games, but I had a lot of fun and am happy to be back playing again.
I ran a Kronos gunline supported by a Jorgm warrior block:
I gave the warriors adaptive physiology to improve their cover save save. I wanted to run dual Malanthropes and a third Exocrines, but I don't have the models yet, so I ended up using the Venoms and plugging in the Broodlord cause he fit.
I played against Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Sisters. The Blood Angels chewed me up. The other two were close games that swung on a handful of late game rolls.
The Warriors did exactly what I wanted them to do. They are durable, punchy, decently shooty, and have a huge board presence. The Venomthropes absorbed considerable attention that would have otherwise gone to the Warriors, and losing three bubble didn't hurt that badly due to the sheer number of wounded the Warriors have. I still thing the Mal is better, but I'm much more sympathetic till the argument for Venoms than i was 24 hours ago.
Exocrines are a huge target. I need the third one, i think, just because going second will cost me one of them. On the up side, Exocrine + spell + boosted damage strat = stupid amounts of damage. Using it on double tapping Hive Hive Guard is also....nice.
The Broodlord was surprisingly useful. He hung out with the Warriors, then rushed forward to nuke something and be a diaphragm Carnifex. He is fast, punchy, and helps give snipers target priority issues.
Edit: i should fix diaphragm Carnifex to distraction Carnifex, but it is way to funny to change
Yes, yes, I know. The Haruspex is awful. But I like the mini...
To be fair, if they keep dropping its price eventually it will reach a point of being so cost efficient relative its statline that its rules don't matter (see Admech).
I have a soft spot for the model too. I still have fond memories back in 7th where my plucky Haruspex demolished an Imperial Knight all by his lonesome (absurdly good rolling and absurdly bad rolling - no merit involved but it was memorable). They are pretty easy to magnetize if you want to have the option to run one while keeping the Exocrine available for more serious games. The only difference between the two is the head and arms.
I suppose on a tactical level, it might have a home in a T8 spam list once you have maxed out on Exocrines and Tyrannofexes. Maybe run it with the +1 to hit for monsters on the charge custom trait with some Tervigons to provide T8 saturation and pick something that helps the Termgants for the second trait (pack hunters might be worth looking at since Tervigons can keep them topped off).
Yes, yes, I know. The Haruspex is awful. But I like the mini...
To be fair, if they keep dropping its price eventually it will reach a point of being so cost efficient relative its statline that its rules don't matter (see Admech).
I have a soft spot for the model too. I still have fond memories back in 7th where my plucky Haruspex demolished an Imperial Knight all by his lonesome (absurdly good rolling and absurdly bad rolling - no merit involved but it was memorable). They are pretty easy to magnetize if you want to have the option to run one while keeping the Exocrine available for more serious games. The only difference between the two is the head and arms.
I suppose on a tactical level, it might have a home in a T8 spam list once you have maxed out on Exocrines and Tyrannofexes. Maybe run it with the +1 to hit for monsters on the charge custom trait with some Tervigons to provide T8 saturation and pick something that helps the Termgants for the second trait (pack hunters might be worth looking at since Tervigons can keep them topped off).
.
Mine are both magnetized. Magnetizing them is simple, and there are only a few extra bits you need to paint up to have both units be options. I've got them in a block of foam that holds both models with all of the options. Unlike certain models, it doesn't take ten extra sheets of foam and a month of painting for the spare bits. I just never run them as anything but Exocrines because the Exocrine actually gets gak done.
Exocrines and Hive Guard shoot things. Rippers screen. Warriors push to midfield and control space. Broodlord runs around punching things to death and grabbing attention.
I'll get the Exocrine together next week, play the list that weekend, and post an update.
Could you perhaps elaborate on this part? I'd be very curious to hear how you are using the Rippers in this functionality, since normally a screen involves a unit with a large footprint while individual Ripper broods have a relatively small one. Also are the Rippers starting on the table or are they dropping in turn 2?
Assume they're sitting at the back of a Kronos gunline that has an Exocrine and a pair of Tyrannofexes.
I would assume 1x6. Just by virtue of the opponent needing to kill 4 venomthropes from one unit in order to drop the -1 hit buff to your MC shooting line, instead of 2 between the two units.
So per new ITC Missions Tyranid Warriors no longer give up gang busters since they are troops, but do give up reaper for purposes of 20 Wounds (rather than models). I think this is a win for us, as getting the Physiological Adaptations to ignore AP and possibility to get -1 to hit, -1 str, and 5++ or 6+ FnP makes them very resilient.
Also the manuever secondaries seem to be much better as well, and enables us to make use of our speed to get Behind Enemy lines, recon, and the other objectives based ones like Engineers/Postman.
Anyone tried these new missions. Curious to hear how it went.
It helps yes, since most opponents were taking reaper already againgst us.
Don't think that a squad of warriors will tank longer than 2 turns though. It just means we have more options to play other than straight stealer bomb in a competitive setting.
Traditionally the Tale of Four warlords is an article covering army building/painting between four staff members and battle reports involving the armies.
It should still be a fun read, but don’t expect anything rules related.
Hey everyone just starting a new army(old army was crons) and I've decided to go with nids. Was thinking of picking up a couple getting started boxes, carnifex and some termagaunts.
In total this would give me;
2 broodlords
16 genestealers
2 trygon/mawlocs
36 guants
3 rippers
2 carnifexes(or whatever else you can make out of their box)
Just wondering about the competitiveness of these for making a list. Don't want to start a new army and already be in a hole with poor unit choices.
Additionally I am a little confused about the massive scything talons on the Trygon/mawloc and how many attacks in CC that unit gets, does each talon get to make an additional attack since there are more than 1?
Punisher wrote: Hey everyone just starting a new army(old army was crons) and I've decided to go with nids. Was thinking of picking up a couple getting started boxes, carnifex and some termagaunts.
In total this would give me;
2 broodlords
16 genestealers
2 trygon/mawlocs
36 guants
3 rippers
2 carnifexes(or whatever else you can make out of their box)
Just wondering about the competitiveness of these for making a list. Don't want to start a new army and already be in a hole with poor unit choices.
Additionally I am a little confused about the massive scything talons on the Trygon/mawloc and how many attacks in CC that unit gets, does each talon get to make an additional attack since there are more than 1?
Those units are all good choices for what Tyranids have available. Your success will be dependent on your local meta and whether you play ITC rules or just play real 40k. In the past, ITC has had a major impact on the viability of a variety of Nid units. The biggest issue was that everything gave up secondary points far too easily, so even if you had the ability to hold objectives and kill targets, you were always fighting an uphill battle.
Granted, without having played enough with the new ITC rules, I can't comment on if that has changed.
Additionally I am a little confused about the massive scything talons on the Trygon/mawloc and how many attacks in CC that unit gets, does each talon get to make an additional attack since there are more than 1?
They only get 1 additional attack, at least that's what was ruled when the question arose after the Index releases. I can't recall if they carried that FAQ response into the Tyranid Codex FAQ.
Talons provide an extremely limited amount of use. A small percentage reroll and before I get a single extra attack I have to have four of the fething things.
If it were +1A per pair of talons (starting with the first), then it might make them worthwhile, especially on high-attack/low damage things like the Mawloc.
My problem with monstrous/massive talons has less to do with the weapon profile and more to do with the Strength of the units that you usually find them on. I also take issue with the fact that monstrous crushing claws are equivalent to DCCWs except they have -1 to hit, inexplicably.
Scything talons should be +1 attack for every pair after the first. Crushing claws have always been -1/initiative 1 to hit so it never surprised me that they are now.
Horms should be 4 points apiece though, and genestealers/broodlord should get a 4++ againgst shooting attacks. Carnifex should have a 2+ save. Trygon Prime should have 14 wounds. Tervigon should have 16 and give gaunts full rerolls to hit or give one squad of gaunts +1 to wound.
This is with no points changes just to make us catch up with the rest of the armies.
Test some games with the above changes and you'll certainly feel slightly more balanced.
I may have to explain myself more. When I stated talons didn't need a rewrite, I was referring to the weapon themselves, not the bearer's stats.
Trygons always have fixed weapons, so if you believe they should have more attacks then change their attacks characteristics, not the talons.
Also talons being even better would quickly make every other melee weapon option irrelevant. What would be the point of boneswords which already give an additional attack? And crushing claws already struggle to justify themselves (the monstrous and massive versions need to drop that - 1 to hit).
Eihnlazer wrote: Crushing claws have always been -1/initiative 1 to hit so it never surprised me that they are now.
Horms should be 4 points apiece though, and genestealers/broodlord should get a 4++ againgst shooting attacks. Carnifex should have a 2+ save. Trygon Prime should have 14 wounds. Tervigon should have 16 and give gaunts full rerolls to hit or give one squad of gaunts +1 to wound.
This is with no points changes just to make us catch up with the rest of the armies.
Test some games with the above changes and you'll certainly feel slightly more balanced.
It's not a matter of surprise, it's just bad design that you look at pretty much any equivalent unit (walkers with CC options), and their X2 Strength ap-3 dam3 melee weapon option has no hit penalty, while monstrous/massive crushing claws do.
I don't know that I agree with buffing Genestealers to a 4++, that sounds more like creep than addressing actual balance issues to me, though I don't have a problem with it on the Broodlord. Carnifexes could use the option of a 2+ save but not just getting it flat out. Trygons, Prime or otherwise, have durability issues unrelated to their wound stack - they're a glass cannon that's not that much of a cannon at S7. T6 and a 3+ save on a height to rival Daemon Primarch models just dies, even if you added 2 wounds. Give them their FW invuln back and either a +1 strength boost so that when they manage to get to combat, they can actually threaten the vehicles that the D6 damage profile on massive talons implies they want to be after, or buff their toughness to 8 to that autocannons and plasma aren't just laughing them off the table.
Tyran wrote: I may have to explain myself more. When I stated talons didn't need a rewrite, I was referring to the weapon themselves, not the bearer's stats.
Trygons always have fixed weapons, so if you believe they should have more attacks then change their attacks characteristics, not the talons.
Also talons being even better would quickly make every other melee weapon option irrelevant. What would be the point of boneswords which already give an additional attack? And crushing claws already struggle to justify themselves (the monstrous and massive versions need to drop that - 1 to hit).
Talons need a re-write because right now they have no purpose. Historically Scything Talons provided extra attacks, while Rending Claws gave you better armor penetration ability. This gave them each clear roles and utility, and a model could pair the weapons if they wanted. You had reasons to want Scything Talons on your models.
Now Scything Talons are nigh-worthless, and Rending Claws are mediocre because Boneswords give consistent APand more attacks. The only reason to ever take Scything Talons as secondaries to another melee weapon is to save on points, which in practice means they only show up on models that can't replace them.
Scything Talons should give a bonus attack, Rending Claws should keep their current rules, and Boneswords should do something different- maybe make them a D2 weapon so that your three choices are volume of attacks, high AP, or multi-damage. That gives each one a unique role.
Hormagaunts, Screamer-Killers, and Trygons all need some love. An extra attack per pair of Talons wouldn't break anything.
Emicrania wrote: Am I seeing double or next WD issue will feature new GSC/Tyranids formations?
I had an opportunity to go over the new White Dwarf issue and can confirm it was just a battle report (albeit a rather entertaining one). It did include the scenario they played which was a Free For All that seemed to work rather well. Each player was given a deck of playing cards and could "bid" for initiative each turn (person with the lowest number went first). The GSC/Tyranid force abused this somewhat in that they went early for the first few turns so they could dump everything on the central objective and deny everyone else's deepstrike from landing until lines thinned out. The mission also had everyone start with 12 command points (with +3 if they were battle forged) instead of having command points tied to the detachments, which was an interesting twist.
Spoiler:
Surprisingly, the GSC/Tyranids player won the battle.
I will say, I really liked how the GSC/Tyranid army was painted. The owner noted that they tried to mirror the color schemes used by the 2nd edition incarnations and the end result looks very nice.
What do you guys think about a 9 man Shrike bomb in a kraken list?
The problem I have with my stealers is they get screened out. Shrikes have fly.
So t1 you get them moving a minimum of 26" (1 to advance roll and hive commander), or a maximum of... 52" (6 on advance, double advance strat, adrenal glands, hive commander). Obviously they'll need onslaught as well.
Following that if you use Synaptic Lure you'll get a rerollable charge +1 for the glands.
That should safely get you anything you want, maybe even hold a unit hostage--or if nothing else bad-touch their entire backfield.
Maybe give them lashwips to ensure better RoI in the subsequent turn.
I just think this is a major disruptive force on t1, for an army that otherwise lacks range or could be screened heavily.
How are they screening out your stealers? Other than orks or nids I have never been screened out, and honestly against those armies you want your stealers killing their troops anyway.
If your bringing swarmlord with kraken stealers there should literally never be anywhere on the table one unit of stealers cant get too.
I have tryed carnifexes with heavy venom cannons. I do not like them. I have tryed the walreant with the new venom cannon relic. I liked that a lott.
I need good anti tank in 2000 points. 6 hiveguards is not near enough. How is the rupture canon? I am considering comverting my tervigon into one. I have not used my two tetvigons since 5th/6th edition. I do not own an exorshrine, and I do not play enough to justefy buying one.
convert the tervi in something usable as both tyrannofex and exocrine. With the new strata (1CP, exocrine count as not moved), in combo with the kronos psychic power from PA, the exocrine is a killer .
I need good anti tank in 2000 points. 6 hiveguards is not near enough. How is the rupture canon? I am considering comverting my tervigon into one. I have not used my two tetvigons since 5th/6th edition. I do not own an exorshrine, and I do not play enough to justefy buying one.
The Rupture Cannon is acceptable against T8 or higher but is otherwise out performed by the Exocrine against lighter vehicles. Main issue is the BS 4+ and variable damage.
For what limited worth it is, I've been using my Tervigons in the last couple games I played with decent performance. I've been doing a T8 monster mash with a swarm of Termagants for screening and a Malceptor in the middle cycling the Encephalic Diffusion stratagem to keep everything ticking. T8 is much tougher to crack when you can drop Lascannons to wounding on a 4+ and plasma to a 5+. The Termagants also hold on a bit better when mass S4 needs a 4+ to wound (and S3 needs a 5+) which gives the Tervigons more opportunities to replenish.
I'm not sure I'd take said list to anything more than a local tournament, but it is rather fun to play if nothing else.
Talons need a re-write because right now they have no purpose. Historically Scything Talons provided extra attacks, while Rending Claws gave you better armor penetration ability. This gave them each clear roles and utility, and a model could pair the weapons if they wanted. You had reasons to want Scything Talons on your models.
Now Scything Talons are nigh-worthless, and Rending Claws are mediocre because Boneswords give consistent APand more attacks. The only reason to ever take Scything Talons as secondaries to another melee weapon is to save on points, which in practice means they only show up on models that can't replace them.
Scything Talons should give a bonus attack, Rending Claws should keep their current rules, and Boneswords should do something different- maybe make them a D2 weapon so that your three choices are volume of attacks, high AP, or multi-damage. That gives each one a unique role.
Hormagaunts, Screamer-Killers, and Trygons all need some love. An extra attack per pair of Talons wouldn't break anything.
And now you have to redesign basically all the melee weapons rather than only one. Which is fair, but far more work.
Eihnlazer wrote: How are they screening out your stealers? Other than orks or nids I have never been screened out, and honestly against those armies you want your stealers killing their troops anyway.
If your bringing swarmlord with kraken stealers there should literally never be anywhere on the table one unit of stealers cant get too.
Guard for example. My stealers are able to crash into the enemy frontline, but rarely is the frontline the key thing to kill.
With the fly keyword they could tie up artillary,effectively disabling a backline.
I need good anti tank in 2000 points. 6 hiveguards is not near enough. How is the rupture canon? I am considering comverting my tervigon into one. I have not used my two tetvigons since 5th/6th edition. I do not own an exorshrine, and I do not play enough to justefy buying one.
The Rupture Cannon is acceptable against T8 or higher but is otherwise out performed by the Exocrine against lighter vehicles. Main issue is the BS 4+ and variable damage.
For what limited worth it is, I've been using my Tervigons in the last couple games I played with decent performance. I've been doing a T8 monster mash with a swarm of Termagants for screening and a Malceptor in the middle cycling the Encephalic Diffusion stratagem to keep everything ticking. T8 is much tougher to crack when you can drop Lascannons to wounding on a 4+ and plasma to a 5+. The Termagants also hold on a bit better when mass S4 needs a 4+ to wound (and S3 needs a 5+) which gives the Tervigons more opportunities to replenish.
I'm not sure I'd take said list to anything more than a local tournament, but it is rather fun to play if nothing else.
Yeah thanks. My friend who plays play Orks. And while we are a bit evenly matched I feel like he is better then me in close combat.
Huge groups of 30 boys with Da Jump is much more effective them my stuff in melee. He also have those 'hidden powerclaws' that can threaten my big stuff. He usualy run a T8 walker and a T8 card, that always gets a charge turn 2. I reallly need to way to deal with T8 and shooting seems to be it. Old one Eye does descent damage, and of course the ocational smite. Last game my tyranofex with the acid spray and the pathogen strat did well when I rolled high in the number of shots.
So mayby another Tfex could be good. I have a hard time seeing me take 2 tevrigons. But I have so fond memories of them.
How are hive guard tazers? They came out very well when the codex first came out. Short range though.
I also found screening with tervigons, mines and gargoyles was very well vs Orks. It certanly makes 'da jump' a lot worse.
How are hive guard tazers? They came out very well when the codex first came out. Short range though.
They are better against targets that have invulnerable saves, since their main damage is through their haywire mortal wounds effect which doesn't care one iota about most defensive tricks. The range isn't too bad actually (24'' is "average" range for quite a few weapons). I'd argue their main failing is just the variable number of shots coupled with not being as good against heavy infantry as the Impalers are. That being said, I have had some good results with a squad of 6 in a Tyrannocyte dropping in and nuking stuff.
And yeah, if T8 is your main problem the Rupture Cannon should be fine. I'd just caution you that it is a very specific tool so you may want to magnetize the arms to give some flexibility.
My army has a Tyrannocyte, but also has a Meleceptor, Toxicrene and Tyrannofex w/Acid Spray.
Which one goes into the 'Cyte?
Thankfully you don't have to decide until set-up, but my first choice would probably be the Toxicrene. With Blood of Baal, you really want the Malceptor to be in the middle of your army (or ideally around your most important components) to keep Encephalic Diffusion up and running. Now between the Toxicrene and Tyrannofex, I'd be more comfortable with the Tyrannofex starting on the table since it is a bit tougher (T8 works better with Encephalic Diffusion, extra wounds) and it isn't as concerned with its damage table since the primary gun hits automatically. The Toxicrene has a rough table in comparison and the more wounds it has going into a combat the more opportunities it has for acid blood to spike some damage back at the opponent (keep Catalyst on it if at all possible - the interaction is funny).
Admittedly I do have a bit of bias. One of my favorite melee-centric builds had a pair of Toxicrenes in Tyrannocytes. They are fairly cheap compared to monsters of the same size class and have a good toolbox.
You know, this whole discussion is making me wonder, but other than some FW models...is there any monster that the Tyrannocyte can't transport (excepting other Tyrannocyte/Sporocysts)?
Strat_N8 wrote: The Toxicrene has a rough table in comparison and the more wounds it has going into a combat the more opportunities it has for acid blood to spike some damage back at the opponent (keep Catalyst on it if at all possible - the interaction is funny).
Let's also factor in that the Toxicrene has Dermic Symbiosis.
Eihnlazer wrote: It cant transport anything with more than 20 wounds, as far as monsterous creatures go.
It can't transport anything with more than 14 wounds actually. Although I don't think there's any difference, as we don't have anything in-between 14 and 20 wounds.
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Thoughts?
That youtube channel is very messy. Where can I find the list that won?
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Thoughts?
That youtube channel is very messy. Where can I find the list that won?
Fisheyes wrote: Is it necessary to combine different <have fleets> to stay competitive? Or can you mono faction with reasonable success.
How are you guys managing to keep everything organized? Colored bases I assume
Unless you're looking to go undefeated at a major, you don't need to combine hive fleets. Gauge your local meta or where you intend to compete and decide. Only the top level needs this type of efficiency - you should be able to get away with some level of inefficiency locally.
Any unit of troops that's 20 wounds or fewer; OR any monster that's 14W or fewer.....as far as I can see, there are no monsters with more than 14W in the regular Codex, so....lulzy Big Bug Drop pods!
Wouldn't you just rather shoot it during your turn?
I mean, Dermic Symbiosis helps quite a bit, and if you want to protect it hide it somewhere. Seems like a lot of points to keep something like that safe.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wouldn't you just rather shoot it during your turn?
I mean, Dermic Symbiosis helps quite a bit, and if you want to protect it hide it somewhere. Seems like a lot of points to keep something like that safe.
It also gives you the ability to more easily reach the backfield of the enemy.
Nitro Zeus wrote: It doesn't seem worth it in comparison to just putting the points towards another Exocrine, but who knows.
One benefit is to give 1 round of fire for sure. There are armies who can blow 2 of those in one turn. T8 is nice but 12W and no inv save...Actually 2 down isn't that unreasonable. It's softer than 1 knight which armies prepare to one shot.
So sure round of fire or double the firepower when you go first(at extra 75pts or so)? Not saying which is better(seeing I don't play nids) but I can see some use for it.
Also gives ability to position where you see primary target you want to shoot bit more easily.
no impact till turn 2 and not contributing to threat saturation... meh maybe it's just my playstyle but id prefer to have it on the board doing something in opening turns, its got a decent defensive profile for the stats and difficult target priority is the main strength of my big Nids.
If you don't face hardcore optimized armies you can't really see how fragile that beast can be (I don't mean to be patronizing), but an exocrine won't last long on the table, even with dermic. A dark angel opponent destroyed both my exocrines with such ease with his planes and lascanons... I with i had brought 2 of testicules for them (I have 3, all painted and based and ready to go)
Also the testicule is 12 wounds on the table for 75 points, which can shoot more or less decently (if kronos) or charge stuff or hold an objective so.
Lately however I have found exocrines don't really cut it in the current meta, because of negs to hit vs ravenguard or alpha legion or eldar (unless you suicide it but then it is definately not a good trade).
It still is a must have in any nidzilla list, or if just put 3 on the board I guess, but otherwise it is an easy target, and nids are currently viable through builds with no "good" targets. So for me, back on the shelf for the time being, but I have no doubt he will see play again in a few months.
I'd say Kronos exocrines are really excellent units in a(n) (currently) unfriendly meta.
I do face up against hardcore stuff, so ease your mind about that. I play/have played against some of my country’s greatest players, and I use their help to tune my gak. I think you might have just missed my point but it’s okay, it’s probably just a playstyle difference.
Thing is he's doing something on opening turn roughly half the time when you go first. Other half it depends on having LOS blocking terrain and facing army that can't move enough stuff. As armies have enough firepower to take down 2 in one turn with firepower to spare. 3 isn't outside realm of possibility due to lack of inv.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I do face up against hardcore stuff, so ease your mind about that. I play/have played against some of my country’s greatest players, and I use their help to tune my gak. I think you might have just missed my point but it’s okay, it’s probably just a playstyle difference.
My post was for HBMC, I know you face the same type of « cutthroat » (not a critic) meta I face, I have read many of your posts (one can tell hah hah, because the same list archetypes come to mind. Kind of sad that all over the world people use more or less the same stuff now. A few years back it was less so I recall)
Nitro Zeus wrote: I do face up against hardcore stuff, so ease your mind about that. I play/have played against some of my country’s greatest players, and I use their help to tune my gak. I think you might have just missed my point but it’s okay, it’s probably just a playstyle difference.
My post was for HBMC, I know you face the same type of « cutthroat » (not a critic) meta I face, I have read many of your posts (one can tell hah hah, because the same list archetypes come to mind. Kind of sad that all over the world people use more or less the same stuff now. A few years back it was less so I recall)
I agree it’s so sad that people are unwilling to expirement. I totally wrote off units based on data sheet until I actually played them. While I try highly tune my gak for the hardcore opponents, the fact is that there is a lot of less skilled players too - I think more people should see this as an opportunity to experiment. You don’t need to run your beat gak against a lower end player to have fun, or even necessarily to have a chance to win. And in a few months time the positive experience you gave that guy may contribute to him sticking with the game and becoming a more challenging opponent in the future, and all the while you’re getting experience in with less understood or talked about strategies and units of the dex, which in a small community like this is so much better than people may realise.
Now on the topic of Exocrine - I understand putting him in a pod of your MC base is largely just Exocrines and maybe a Flyrant or two or something. Guaranteeing that Symbiosis alpha strike set up anywhere on the board before they get a chance to retaliate might be the impact needed. Otherwise they are obvious first primary and some lists can clean that up, they just can. For me personally, the single Dermic Symbiosis Exocrine is less of an obvious choice when there is a Hierodule, two Acid Spray TFex and a Toxicrene all coming at you beneath a Malanthrope umbrella. In fact them shooting it is often the wrong choice, you just accept he’s gonna do some damage but isn’t gonna crash your whole party like the rest of them. But that’s an entirely different playstyle, so I see the difference there, and that’s mostly what I was referring to. It doesn’t vibe with how I play, but I won’t call it wrong, basically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I understand many people don’t have the collection to experiment, or that they collect multiple races etc, or can only afford to buy the units they are told work best - but for us veteran Nid mains, that’s all the more responsibility on us to delve deeper.
Couple questions, first can a genestealer model have both an acid maw and flesh hooks? Or can I only have 1 on a model.
Second somewhat related, can someone explain to me the heads on the genestealer sprue? I'm assuming the tentacle thing is the acid maw but what are the other ones?
Punisher wrote: Couple questions, first can a genestealer model have both an acid maw and flesh hooks? Or can I only have 1 on a model.
Second somewhat related, can someone explain to me the heads on the genestealer sprue? I'm assuming the tentacle thing is the acid maw but what are the other ones?
Don't have my codex handy so I can't recall the answer to the first question. But most of the head options physically on the Genestealer sprue are defunct.
Tentacle face = Feeder Tendrils, used to give rerolls to hit against particular targets.
Barbed tongue = Implant Attack, used to cause an additional wound(?). Might be misremembering that.
Long tongue + sac hanging from their gullet = Acid Maw.
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Thoughts?
Just a quick note, the summary doesn't seem right.
Tyrants have 4 attacks base. The relic is giving him +1, so where would the other attack come from? He can't take a pair of scything talons as the relic replaces one set.
Also the Scythes of tyran don't reroll 1s, they instead have exploding 6s.
So it would be:
5 attacks, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Plus rerolling wounds via stratagem.
Still quite good.
Let me know if I'm missing something, the idea of a hive tyrant that can one shot anything without a stormshield is pretty fun.
TL;DR
Missions were based on adepticon and only went 5 rounds. Somehow this guy managed to dodge all the Marine list, but played against a Lot of chaos.
Unique thing is taking the Behemoth for +1 to wound power on GS to get rend on 5s. Also, put Murderous Size adapation and Syches of Tyran Relic on Flyrant.
Unstoppable hunger +1 to wound
Murderous size Adaptaion +1 st +1 dmg, +1 ap WLT Monsteround Hunger, 6s to wound do +1 damagae
Toxin sacs explode 6s damage
Relic: Sythes of Tyran +1s +1 A, AP-3 Dmg 3
A: 6 attacks reroll 1, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Thoughts?
Just a quick note, the summary doesn't seem right.
Tyrants have 4 attacks base. The relic is giving him +1, so where would the other attack come from? He can't take a pair of scything talons as the relic replaces one set.
Also the Scythes of tyran don't reroll 1s, they instead have exploding 6s.
So it would be:
5 attacks, S8 -4 APDMG 4, 6's to wound do 6 dmg (5s with unstoppable hunger)
Plus rerolling wounds via stratagem.
Still quite good.
Let me know if I'm missing something, the idea of a hive tyrant that can one shot anything without a stormshield is pretty fun.
Yeah, my mistake, I think i was using 2 pairs of sything talons, which could be an option. Note, though, he does get 6 attacks, 5 with the main weapon and his trusty tail
I have a question for the hive mind. I want to add in a small nid force to my GSC. I want it to be relatively self contained and it doesn't need to be tournament competivie. The models I am going to include are Old One Eye and two screamer killer fexes. I have plenty of genestealers so I was thinking of going battalion for the bonus CP. For the second HQ I am thinking a Prime as I wanted to keep among the smaller cheaper HQs. What loadout would you go with? Or should I be looking at something else?
Or would it be better to add in a 3rd Heavy Support and just run a spearhead detachment. In which case what for Heavy Support? A 4th fex? Or something else? The hive fleet will be Jormungandr as my GSC are Sons of Jormungandr.
On the cheaper side, a Neurothrope would be awesome as a second HQ -- Old One Eye loves having Catalyst on him, and Onslaught can get him places quicker.
mightymconeshot wrote: I have a question for the hive mind. I want to add in a small nid force to my GSC. I want it to be relatively self contained and it doesn't need to be tournament competivie. .
If it doesn't need to be tournament comp, and if you want to field screamer fexes wich are just more expensive carnifexes with a very lousy weapon and no 3+ ballistick skill, then I say go for what you want, you don't really need advice.
addnid has a point. There's no real good way to do what you're doing, and your goal isn't to be competitive, so why not just take whatever model you like, or follow whatever decision making process lead you to here in the first place even further and see what you got?
How are they different from normal fexes? I don't understand what you mean by that.
Because my gaming scene isn't tournament prep, but isn't narrative do what you want. It is still a fairly competitive place and since I have to get some models I don't want to waste my money since I have a very limited budget. Since I haven't touched the army in about 10 years a lot has changed and what was good or decent, probably isn't true any more.
mightymconeshot wrote: For the second HQ I am thinking a Prime as I wanted to keep among the smaller cheaper HQs. What loadout would you go with? Or should I be looking at something else?
Or would it be better to add in a 3rd Heavy Support and just run a spearhead detachment. In which case what for Heavy Support? A 4th fex? Or something else? The hive fleet will be Jormungandr as my GSC are Sons of Jormungandr.
I tend to run my Prime with twin boneswords and a deathspitter for flexibility. Admittedly, I'm not sure I'd take a Prime without at least one brood of Warriors for him to lead around. If you are planning on taking a battalion with Genestealers you may want to consider a Brood Lord instead for psychic support and the +1 to hit from brood telepathy.
GSC loves having command points to burn, so the battalion is probably a good idea. I'd consider taking some Rockgrinders to go with the 'fexes as the two units can lend threat saturation with each other.
mightymconeshot wrote:How are they different from normal fexes? I don't understand what you mean by that.
Screamerkillers are slightly more expensive than a stock Carnifex with similar load-out in exchange for a few extras (most notable being that Bioplasmic Scream is D6 shots instead of the D3 shots Bioplasma gets). Most competitive Carnifex configurations tend to lean on their ability to provide either 3+ to-hit firepower via Enhanced Senses or a high volume of shots with some melee capability (Acid Maw/Tail Weapon).
That being said, Screamerkillers can still kill stuff and they chop up heavy infantry fairly well. Just they aren't the most optimal load-out in a competitive environment since they are relatively slow for a melee unit and their shooting isn't very consistent.
Are they a different datasheet? Aren't screamer killers just claws, talons, and bioplasma?
But I was already planning on running 2 or 3 Rockgrinders already alone with a squad of Ridgerunners. Plenty of higher toughness models to spread around the wounds if I used them.
In previous editions screamer-killer simply referred to a particular build of carnifex, featuring 2 sets of scything talons + bioplasma.
But in the current codex GW decided to make them into a separate datasheet.
One question about that list with the tyrannocyte. Wouldn´t be better have the Swarmlord in it?
He can be assured to have a charge and Stealers will anyway either reached the screens, either been dead by then.
Also for 1 CP that Exocrine can move out of cover and shoot pretty effectively.
Emicrania wrote: One question about that list with the tyrannocyte. Wouldn´t be better have the Swarmlord in it?
He can be assured to have a charge and Stealers will anyway either reached the screens, either been dead by then.
Also for 1 CP that Exocrine can move out of cover and shoot pretty effectively.
The list used the Biosphere Consumption custom trait ability in two of its detachments which I found remarkably interesting given that it has generally been viewed as one of the weaker picks due to all of the conditions required to get it to work. Also they had no Kraken detachments which was surprising given their toolbox.
The list used the Biosphere Consumption custom trait ability in two of its detachments which I found remarkably interesting given that it has generally been viewed as one of the weaker picks due to all of the conditions required to get it to work. Also they had no Kraken detachments which was surprising given their toolbox.
Only one <Monster> in one detachment (Malanthrope, not likely to be losing a lot of wounds early enough to see a benefit unless sniped), three <Monster> units in the other, one of them is a Mawloc which wouldn't benefit until T3 at the earliest unless deployed on table and the other two are Flyrants who, presumably, are usually going to be in motion.
One possibility; I've found that marine snipers now have the ability to take a malanthrope off the table in a single turn of fire, if barely. Perhaps he was trying to mitigate that?
Overall, though, my suspicion is that he placed where he placed by means of good solid play rather than because of that choice of custom hive fleet.
Verthane wrote: One possibility; I've found that marine snipers now have the ability to take a malanthrope off the table in a single turn of fire, if barely. Perhaps he was trying to mitigate that?
Overall, though, my suspicion is that he placed where he placed by means of good solid play rather than because of that choice of custom hive fleet.
Honestly my suspicion is that its a typo when the player was writing the list up... as the Prime is in one battalion and the Warriors another! So I think both might have been meant to be the same as the second batt for extra durability.
So I reallized today that if I swap out some guns, I have the models to put 18 Hive Guard and 18 Warriors on the table. I'm thinking Kronos Battalion with Neuros and Hive Guard plus at Jorg Battalion with Primes, Warriors, and a Malenthrope. Fill in the gaps with Rippers, or maybe some breed of 'gant. Not having exploding super Exocrines is sad, but exploding 6's on double shooting Hive Guard isn't bad at all. Has anyone tried anything like it?
babelfish wrote: So I reallized today that if I swap out some guns, I have the models to put 18 Hive Guard and 18 Warriors on the table. I'm thinking Kronos Battalion with Neuros and Hive Guard plus at Jorg Battalion with Primes, Warriors, and a Malenthrope. Fill in the gaps with Rippers, or maybe some breed of 'gant. Not having exploding super Exocrines is sad, but exploding 6's on double shooting Hive Guard isn't bad at all. Has anyone tried anything like it?
Statistically you should get the same number of bonus shots from a double shooting hive guard with exploding 6's (24 shots, exploding on 6) as you would an exocrine (12 shots, exploding on 5+).
But one of those costs 2cp, and hive guard have reduced output the more dmg they take. So it's a mixed bag.
I'd almost call it a strategic wash, but a tactical mountain in terms of difference. (We could armchair him and haw of one vs another, but much will come down to how you use them)
babelfish wrote: So I reallized today that if I swap out some guns, I have the models to put 18 Hive Guard and 18 Warriors on the table. I'm thinking Kronos Battalion with Neuros and Hive Guard plus at Jorg Battalion with Primes, Warriors, and a Malenthrope. Fill in the gaps with Rippers, or maybe some breed of 'gant. Not having exploding super Exocrines is sad, but exploding 6's on double shooting Hive Guard isn't bad at all. Has anyone tried anything like it?
Statistically you should get the same number of bonus shots from a double shooting hive guard with exploding 6's (24 shots, exploding on 6) as you would an exocrine (12 shots, exploding on 5+).
But one of those costs 2cp, and hive guard have reduced output the more dmg they take. So it's a mixed bag.
I'd almost call it a strategic wash, but a tactical mountain in terms of difference. (We could armchair him and haw of one vs another, but much will come down to how you use them)
Yeah, its an interesting trade off. Hive Guard do get the option to shoot at a different target with the second set (technically the Exocrine could, but by and large all those shots are going into the same target), so less potential for wasting shots with overkill, but still 2 cp.
Hive Guard sit in the same target profile as Warriors do, but you don't really get any benefit from that because both anti-infantry and anti-tank guns are happy to shoot at them. I've been playing with lists, and if I tweek the force org around I can fit in a GSC battalion of laser neophytes. The ignore heavy weapons creed + the bike sniper aura lets them act as las cannon armed deep striking Scions, adds an interesting element to the build.
So I have two lists I am interested in playing around with. One uses shrikes, which are currently legal (not legends, but still index options, which either means GW forgot to index them, or they plan on bringing them back).
They both have simillar mechanics, the only real difference is one is about controlling mid field with warriors, and the other more about swarming and overwhelming the enemy.
In this first list Swarm and Overwhelm I want to be able to have the option of slinging the stealers hormagants or shrikes on turn 1, all of which would serve a different purpose depending on the army I'm fighting. If I'm going against guard and really want to get in there and cripple the backline I may even give the shrikes unnatural resistances. Would like your thoughts.
Second one is Command and Control. Still a sling base, but built over a sturdier framework of Warriors who can help hold midfield objectives, and clear screens at range. Would likely give them or hive guard the unnatural resistances adaptation.
I am hesitant to build anything using any FW options right now because I do not know what GW will do with them. With the investment involved it would suck to get something running only for it to go legends next year. There is no certainty at this point in time. Hopefully GW will address that because it certainly prevents me from buying any FW.
I do not have enough experience to consider myself particularly qualified, but it seems to me like adrenal glands on your genestealers would help a good amount. An extra 2" to their threat range would be pretty useful IMO. Your second list seems like it would seriously benefit from slipping a squad of venomthropes in
NinthMusketeer wrote: I do not have enough experience to consider myself particularly qualified, but it seems to me like adrenal glands on your genestealers would help a good amount. An extra 2" to their threat range would be pretty useful IMO. Your second list seems like it would seriously benefit from slipping a squad of venomthropes in
So I have two lists I am interested in playing around with. One uses shrikes, which are currently legal (not legends, but still index options, which either means GW forgot to index them, or they plan on bringing them back).
They both have simillar mechanics, the only real difference is one is about controlling mid field with warriors, and the other more about swarming and overwhelming the enemy.
In this first list Swarm and Overwhelm I want to be able to have the option of slinging the stealers hormagants or shrikes on turn 1, all of which would serve a different purpose depending on the army I'm fighting. If I'm going against guard and really want to get in there and cripple the backline I may even give the shrikes unnatural resistances. Would like your thoughts.
Second one is Command and Control. Still a sling base, but built over a sturdier framework of Warriors who can help hold midfield objectives, and clear screens at range. Would likely give them or hive guard the unnatural resistances adaptation.
Your first list is solid enough, given the precondition that you want to run Shrikes.
I haven't looked at Shrikes in some time. If I remember correctly, they have the same weapon options for the same costs as Warriors do. On that assumption, I recommend duel boneswords + deathspitters. The extra attack from having two boneswords comes in useful farm more often than the hit if slain ability from the lash whips. Lash whips are only useful if you expect to be charged by something that can kill them, but that they can meaningfully hurt in return. By and large the shrikes should be the ones charging, not getting charged.
You may want to consider swapping the Broodlord and the Venomthropes for a second Malanthrope. That will free up some points to fill in the 'stealer squads and adjust the load outs on the Shrikes.
The first list I also like. I assume the detachment with the 'stealers is intended to be Kraken. The bonus from the Prime is hive fleet locked, so you need to swap the Kraken Warriors to the Kronos detachment and bring a set of Rippers down to the Kraken detachment. Again, I like boneswords + deathspitters + stranglethorn cannons for Warriors.I find that venom cannons don't really do enough damage to be a threat on their own. You already have decent amounts of S7 and S8, the two venom cannons are not going to add much to the list. Stranglethorn cannons synergize really well with deathspitters. Both weapons like to shoot a similar targets, the d6 shots can spike in a nice way, and the 36" range can let you plink meaningfully at squads you don't want to waste and Exocrine on early in the game. I would drop a single Warrior from the smaller unit, swap venom cannons for stranglethorns, and use those points to either get boneswords or more 'stealers.
I think the ignores -1 and -2 AP adaption on both Warrior units would be the best adaption to run. Hive Guard should be safely hidden for at least a few turns, so the extra durability is wasted on them.
Overall I like were you are going with the builds.
So I have two lists I am interested in playing around with. One uses shrikes, which are currently legal (not legends, but still index options, which either means GW forgot to index them, or they plan on bringing them back).
They both have simillar mechanics, the only real difference is one is about controlling mid field with warriors, and the other more about swarming and overwhelming the enemy.
[…]
Thoughts?
Just as a thought, but have you perhaps considered doing an skyswarm list? If you are bringing Shrikes anyway you could perhaps double down with some Gargoyle swarms for fast screens/tarpits and maybe a Harpy or two (gives fire support, more mortal wound potential, and extra turn-1 chargers).
I do like both lists already presented and have to echo more or less what babelfish said, though I think I prefer the second one since it feels a bit better in the area of threat saturation (more redundancy, fewer "obvious" targets).
babelfish wrote: So I reallized today that if I swap out some guns, I have the models to put 18 Hive Guard and 18 Warriors on the table. I'm thinking Kronos Battalion with Neuros and Hive Guard plus at Jorg Battalion with Primes, Warriors, and a Malenthrope. Fill in the gaps with Rippers, or maybe some breed of 'gant. Not having exploding super Exocrines is sad, but exploding 6's on double shooting Hive Guard isn't bad at all. Has anyone tried anything like it?
Statistically you should get the same number of bonus shots from a double shooting hive guard with exploding 6's (24 shots, exploding on 6) as you would an exocrine (12 shots, exploding on 5+).
But one of those costs 2cp, and hive guard have reduced output the more dmg they take. So it's a mixed bag.
I'd almost call it a strategic wash, but a tactical mountain in terms of difference. (We could armchair him and haw of one vs another, but much will come down to how you use them)
This is not accurate.
Assuming 6 stationary kronos hive guard with symbiostorm vs 1 stationary kronos exocrine with symbiostorm:
The hive guard average 23.333 hits while the exocrine averages 13.999 hits.
Spoiler:
Hive guard:
24 shots hitting on 3's: 16 hits
Bonus hits on 6's: 4 more hits
Rerolling 1's, hitting on 3's: 2.666 more hits
Rerolling 1's bonus hits on 6's: .666 more hits
Total: 23.333 hits average
Exocrine:
12 shots hitting on 3's: 8
Bonus hits on 5's: 4
Rerolling 1's, hitting on 3's: 1.333 more hits
Rerolling 1's, bonus hits on 5's: .666 more hits
Total: 13.999 hits
The tactical difference is that the hive guard ignore cover (so technically have AP-3 against targets in cover, same as exocrine), have a point higher in strength, and shoot out of LoS. Exocrines on the other hand have more reliable damage output versus 2W targets like primaris, can move 6" and still shoot at full effectiveness, and doesn't lose volume of fire until all the wounds are gone. Hive guard put out MUCH more dakka than exocrines on turn 1.
EDIT: You would be accurate if you were referring to the TOTAL number of bonus hits gained, which for both would be 4.666 bonus hits per squad, but I believe you were referring to total hits overall in which hive guard hit much more.
So, given that I cannot try it out myself given coronavirus...
Has anyone tried the 2+ save (vs shooting) genestealer combo? Though clearly not an optimized loadout it seems like it would viable enough for fun games.
On a similar note, how about AP -2 hormagaunt custom fleet?
NinthMusketeer wrote: So, given that I cannot try it out myself given coronavirus...
Has anyone tried the 2+ save (vs shooting) genestealer combo? Though clearly not an optimized loadout it seems like it would viable enough for fun games.
On a similar note, how about AP -2 hormagaunt custom fleet?
If I were to play a Hormagaunts hive fleet (hoping they get somehow reduced to 4 pts which is the correct cost for them since ever), I'd go with 6++ and AP-1 on Scything talons since you can already get for a unit AP-2 via a 1 CP Stratagem for them and the increased melee AP by 1 is linked to having MORE models than your enemy in close combat, which is not assured at all considering that aside from Gretchins gants have the worst profile in the game as a 5 PPM T3 6+
A stratagem would help, but using your Onslaught cast upon them is not a bad idea. My number one use for Hormagants has always been fling a unit of them up the screen turn one with kraken strat and Onslaught. Swarmy if you have it though it may Ben a waste of his points. Give them AG and they outspeed Genestealers and pile in further. A unit of 20 or less is large enough to tag up anything you want and potentially even get a wrap, but cheap enough that you didn’t even give a damn if it dies. Ideally just use a cheap tool to force fallbacks/cause disruption and lower the amount of damage you take in the opening salvo. I also was running a dakka heavy build which helped clear the screens though so it might not be guaranteed - but even in the later turns, a squad of Horms covers ground quickly and can be a great disruption unit.
I think Horms are pretty good in this role. Spamming bodies? Errr that’s a job Termagants will always do better imo. And trying to kill gak with Horms? I just don’t see it happening. Even with AP2 you need so many in base to base just to get enough dice to start chipping things down... I think you’re just playing a list of Ork Boys except much, much worse basically
NinthMusketeer wrote: With 4 ranks attacking and a 6" pile-in I do not see how getting them in range to attack is a problem, once they have made the charge.
I mean even giving you the benefit of the doubt on this first squad, I'm talking about spamming them. You're just not gonna be able to apply significant damage across the board.
... Being tough for two turns is not enough if you don't bring some damage output the first two turns. Last tournament I lost my fifth chaos knights at the end of turn 4 against space marine raven gaurd and that wasn't even against an iron hand player with better damage output. I think you seriously underestimate the space marine damage output and really overestimate the tyranid nidzilla's reach.
