Singleton Mosby wrote: What are the thoughts on Mawlocs? I'm gearing up for a 1000 pts tourney in a couple of weeks and am not sure yet if I will swap out one of my Carnifexes for a Mawloc (monster list with OOE).
Most of my experiences with Mawlocs in 8th has been that they are a cheap nuisance for the most part. Their main strength is positional dominance. They are excellent at popping up in inconvenient places to block movement (especially if you can position them to prevent enemies from withdrawing from combat).
That being said, I'm not sure I'd drop a Carnifex for one. The Mawloc has more wounds but the Carnifex has T7 and (presumably) a -1 to hit so they should be roughly equal in durability. The Carnifex has a lot more offensive potential though and taking a Mawloc means one less beneficiary of Old One Eye's aura.
And another question: I am toubting which hivefleet is more suitable for a monster list (no swarmy): either Kraken or Jorm. I like the +1 on the save, but it makes me slower as I won't advance. Kraken is very fast indeed which has its cons. I tend to go for Kraken as it means I'll be shoving my carnifexes into my opponents face quicker (sometimes with Onslaught and the strategem).
Kraken is probably going to be the best for melee or mixed-role Carnifexes, since it lets them withdraw and recharge to get Living Battering Ram up every turn. Shooty Carnifexes are happy enough with Jormungandr, though in personal experience Jormungandr is best run as a more combined arms fleet (it wants a shooting monster component and a tunneling component).
If you are running pure monsters Gorgon might be worth looking at. The relic is nice for a warlord monster (T9 for a Tervigon, T8 for a Hive Tyrant) and the trait gets progressively better the higher your strength is.
Mawloc's best trick is first turn board presence so your good stuff can be safe in DS then burrow 1st turn and pop out with other DS stuff 2nd turn. I like using a Malanthrope and 2 big blobs of stealers up front with a pair of Mawlocs. The 2 big beast just scream at the opp to shoot at them and draw lots of fire. They have lots of wounds and with the -1 to be hit are very resilent. Then they burrow and DS turn 2 for some chomping.
Hmm. If “any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed”, and a Mawloc uses its Burrow ability, does the fact that it has arrived on the battlefield mean it can hide underground past the third round without getting killed off a cave-in?
I rarely see one survive until the turn after it emerges, but it eats something like a remote Havoc Squad, it’d be nice to tag it into another location...
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. If “any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed”, and a Mawloc uses its Burrow ability, does the fact that it has arrived on the battlefield mean it can hide underground past the third round without getting killed off a cave-in?
I rarely see one survive until the turn after it emerges, but it eats something like a remote Havoc Squad, it’d be nice to tag it into another location...
All that "Has not arrived by turn 3' jazz is only for models that haven't already been on the field so a Mawloc definitly can burrow turn 3 and come in turn 4 or burrow turn 4 and come in turn 5 as long as time permits.
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Emicrania wrote: Is it possible to make a MW battery list with Mawloc, biovores and zoanthrope + Genestealers?
Sure I've had some success with 6 biovores and 2 sporocytes just raining down mines... a very funny moment for me was when I put a pair of mines just in front of a pair of knights at a bottleneck in the terrain during a tournament.... and they couldn't walk over them as they are not infantry models. Stopped him dead in his tracks. Won me the game.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. If “any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed”, and a Mawloc uses its Burrow ability, does the fact that it has arrived on the battlefield mean it can hide underground past the third round without getting killed off a cave-in?
I rarely see one survive until the turn after it emerges, but it eats something like a remote Havoc Squad, it’d be nice to tag it into another location...
All that "Has not arrived by turn 3' jazz is only for models that haven't already been on the field so a Mawloc definitly can burrow turn 3 and come in turn 4 or burrow turn 4 and come in turn 5 as long as time permits.
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Emicrania wrote: Is it possible to make a MW battery list with Mawloc, biovores and zoanthrope + Genestealers?
Sure I've had some success with 6 biovores and 2 sporocytes just raining down mines... a very funny moment for me was when I put a pair of mines just in front of a pair of knights at a bottleneck in the terrain during a tournament.... and they couldn't walk over them as they are not infantry models. Stopped him dead in his tracks. Won me the game.
I’ve tried lists with a mawloc, 3 squads of zoanthropes and a Maleceptor to punish castles. It puts out a stupid amount of mortal wounds, but you’ll never pull it off more than once before your opponent learns and spreads their stuff out.
Interesting insights lads. Thanks. I will include one Mawloc in my list for the comming tournament and see how it goes.
Timeshadow wrote: Mawloc's best trick is first turn board presence so your good stuff can be safe in DS then burrow 1st turn and pop out with other DS stuff 2nd turn.
Didn't think of this, but that's a very nice way of using him.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. If “any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed”, and a Mawloc uses its Burrow ability, does the fact that it has arrived on the battlefield mean it can hide underground past the third round without getting killed off a cave-in?
I rarely see one survive until the turn after it emerges, but it eats something like a remote Havoc Squad, it’d be nice to tag it into another location...
All that "Has not arrived by turn 3' jazz is only for models that haven't already been on the field so a Mawloc definitly can burrow turn 3 and come in turn 4 or burrow turn 4 and come in turn 5 as long as time permits.
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Emicrania wrote: Is it possible to make a MW battery list with Mawloc, biovores and zoanthrope + Genestealers?
Sure I've had some success with 6 biovores and 2 sporocytes just raining down mines... a very funny moment for me was when I put a pair of mines just in front of a pair of knights at a bottleneck in the terrain during a tournament.... and they couldn't walk over them as they are not infantry models. Stopped him dead in his tracks. Won me the game.
Interesting, what else did you have in the list?
Actully now that I think about it I am mixing 2 lists together cause the Mawloc list didn't have Biovores but the concept works here is one I knocked together.
2000pts evin
Battalion Kronos:
Nerothrope
Nerothrope
Hive Guard Impailer (6)
Ripper Brood (3) x3 (one brood with spinemaws to use 6 extra pts)
Biovire brood (3) x2
You deploy the Kraken units aggressively with the Mawlocs up front along with the genestealers and Malanthrope.
Keep your Kronos gun blob generally together behind LOS blocking.
First turn advance both Genestealer blobs using strats ect to get them in opp's face if needed use strat to dbl move Malanthrope to keep GS in shroud bubble. Burrow Mawlocs to chomp from below 2nd turn
If you go second the Mawlocs will draw a ton of fire (hopefully protecting your genestealers) and make your opp think too hard. Evin at 1 W a Mawloc is fully effective with it's burrow attack.
My original list dropped the guns and sporocyte for Sup command of Leviathan Flyrants (MRC/2xDiv) with slight tweeks to fill out pts.
I have a 1500pt game coming up this Thursday and planning on running 2x30 fleshborer Gaunts and a Tervigon. Just got a quick question about the Tervigon Spawn ability.
Are you able to bring back up to 10 models per fleshborer termagaunt unit or is it that I can bring back 10 Gaunts and I have to choose how they Spawn e.g. I have 2 fleshborer Gaunts units that both lost 8 dudes. Am I able to bring back up to 10 Gaunts in both units or put 5 into one unit and 5 into the other.
Odrankt wrote: I have a 1500pt game coming up this Thursday and planning on running 2x30 fleshborer Gaunts and a Tervigon. Just got a quick question about the Tervigon Spawn ability.
Are you able to bring back up to 10 models per fleshborer termagaunt unit or is it that I can bring back 10 Gaunts and I have to choose how they Spawn e.g. I have 2 fleshborer Gaunts units that both lost 8 dudes. Am I able to bring back up to 10 Gaunts in both units or put 5 into one unit and 5 into the other.
Thanks for the help.
Either spawn one new unit, or recycle ten dead within a single existing unit
You'll be replacing models that die in the one unit.
The best use of Tervigon is replacing Fleshborer body shields for Devourer's in squads. Run like 10 or 15 Devourers per 30 man Termagant and you'll get more mileage than usual.
Making new units costs points so that's generally a bad idea.
Making new units costs points so that's generally a bad idea.
Just a hypothetical, but perhaps it might be worthwhile if you are doing a pure 'nidzilla list but still want the option having an emergency screen if you need to roadblock something? If there are enough monsters on the table and no Termagants to replenish or hit with psychic feedback the Tervigon should be lower priority than usual. Maybe put 80 points aside and if the Tervigon dies before dropping the second squad use Endless Swarm as a backup?
At that point the Tervigon is a glorified dedicated transport, but still.
Basic idea is that Turn 1 the Tervigon, 30 Gaunts, Trygon, Tyrannocyte and 2 ripper swarms go into reserves. Leaving Give Tyrant, 2 rippers, 2 Broodlords and 20 genestealers on my table hopefully all behind Losb terrain minimalising the damage I'll take.
Turn 2 I will then drop the Tervigon + Cyte and Trygon + Gaunts into my Opponents face while my 20 genestealers are in terrain ready to do charges while not getting overwatched.
Only thing I'm sure about is the Tyrant. Should I give him wings so he can DS as well for Turn 2 safety? It will have chameleonic mutation for -1 to hit.
2nd broodlord is in Leviathan as I plan to make him my warlord and to have it hide in my Deployment with it's 6+++ so it will be hard to get Kingslayer.
Tyranids + GSC placed at two different GT's over the weekend (second and forth), and neither time using any Hive Guard, or anything that could really be considered true AT at all besides some Acolytes with Rock Saws.
I don't like relying on purely deepstrike - especially with more and more 12" DS deny bubbles popping up in armys, Forwarned, and stratagems like Vect for blocking perfect ambush - which is why I'm playing Nids in the first place, for that more reliable ground based play.
But I also don't like relying on Hive Guard either considering how easily some armies counter them too. So I'm currently using a squad of both.
Honestly yes, the more I think about it, the more I realize the points spent on hive guard would be far more effective just putting more bodies on the table.
You can get a full squad of stealers and some more gaunts and just flood the board with bodies.
Hive guard really only shine againgst T7 or Heavy infantry reliant armies (custodies/chaos daemon engine lists).
They just don't justify their investment in almost any other case.
Well he’s got psychic shutdown with the Kronos Biovores, a turn 1 delivery system with the Kraken Swarmlord + genestealers, and a solid rock of troops with the Jorm Warriors. Not all that damaging but it covers all your bases and denies all your opponent’s.
He used the Mawloc to bring in the Warriors with the stratagem. Adrenal Glands give them 8" charge. I'm guessing saved a CP re-roll for it.
He doesn't like Hive Guard much for similar reasons that I'm turning off them as well. To quote myself here:
Spoiler:
Nitro Zeus wrote: I know it's going to sound like blasphemy, but I've been finding Hive Guard to be less and less effective. They are highly terrain dependant, which is sometimes a problem if you get the wrong table edge (or just the wrong table in some events - yes, I know they should be using more terrain, but the fact is plenty of places just don't), and also extremely match up dependant. Vs Knights for example they basically take an entire game of chewing up CP to down a single Knight which is basically not even worth doing, and they just get evaporated immediately vs anything with highly mobile shooting that can get an angle on them (Aeldari / Necron / Guard flyers for example) because even with the newer bases they still have a significant footprint. Let alone the amount of units that do "no-LoS" even better and don't even need LoS to delete them, like Broadsides. And in the mirror, you have no way of guaranteeing you shoot first, or if they have Flyrants for whatever reason (which aren't a top tier unit anymore but also aren't uncommon to see in some form) they can just chew em out. I take more than enough Gants to screen them out from deepstrikers, but blocking deepstriker threats just isn't enough to protect them anymore I think. They are decent when they are good, buy in the current state of the game they feel a little too coinflippy.
Seems like he preferred 7 Biovores instead for a similar role.
For what it's worth though, he also referred to this list as his "gak Nids" because people laughed at what he was bringing. Then 5-0'd them at a 70 man event though.
TBH other than the Mawloc and Warriors, it looks pretty good to me. And even that isn't terrible either, though I'd at least prefer a Trygon over the Mawloc or something that can have an impact, especially since it would let you move away from Jorm (maybe Behemoth for re-rolls on the Warriors).
Badablack wrote: Well he’s got psychic shutdown with the Kronos Biovores, a turn 1 delivery system with the Kraken Swarmlord + genestealers, and a solid rock of troops with the Jorm Warriors. Not all that damaging but it covers all your bases and denies all your opponent’s.
That looks like a fine list, I'm guessing he usually tunnels in the Warriors. And he has two Kraken swarms of Stealers that is a lot of force he can bring on in the first turn or so.
I doubt that he did charge with the warriors.
I have to check if you can do that geometrically, but It is more likely that he deep struck the mawlock in mortal wound range of a target, and tunneled the warriors on the far end of it, which should 9" away from the target. You double shoot the warriors (with prime bonus), keep the cover bonus and charge in the next turn.
Without the hive guards, he needed a good target for the double shoot stratagem, and those warriors are quite good for it.
Stealers are there for a shock attack turn 1 and additional pressure on turn 2. By turn 2 you are swarmed by the warriors, the mawlock and the gaunts. Broodlords go in for the final kills.
I mean, that is his own words on what he did, he's an Australian itc player who I asked personally about the list. It's why he took something with AG, specifically to turn that 9" to an 8".
as for SMA targets, he had 2 full units of Biovores.
Spoletta wrote: I doubt that he did charge with the warriors.
I have to check if you can do that geometrically, but It is more likely that he deep struck the mawlock in mortal wound range of a target, and tunneled the warriors on the far end of it, which should 9" away from the target. You double shoot the warriors (with prime bonus), keep the cover bonus and charge in the next turn.
Without the hive guards, he needed a good target for the double shoot stratagem, and those warriors are quite good for it.
Stealers are there for a shock attack turn 1 and additional pressure on turn 2. By turn 2 you are swarmed by the warriors, the mawlock and the gaunts. Broodlords go in for the final kills.
Agreed. I see the warriors as a high Armor save fire base for double shoot. I think the mawloc was the mortal wound add on to finish off what biovores shot. Or perhaps pop him up behind a unit that the Genestealers charged to prevent them from falling back. But then again, this guy placed 2nd and I didn't. Maybe have to consider the warriors for the charge like he did.
He just considered the Warriors as another unit of Stealers. Except unlike Stealers, they get to shoot if they whiff the charge so they still have some impact (and also dirt cheap AG), and then cause of Jorm they get to sit there with a 3+ save and hopefully distract some fire while he gets in with other units.
He was double shooting Biovores vs Knights and vs Custodes, but you could always do it on the Warriors too. Either way they are still DS’ing and charging.
He said he’s dropping some Biovores for OOE. Also don’t consider this list some ironed out game plan, he had a bunch of untested ideas he threw into the list, and also got tabled in his first practice match which contributed to the list name “gak nids” but it was locked in for the event. Luckily for him he played it well and got that 2nd place finish.
Nitro Zeus wrote: He just considered the Warriors as another unit of Stealers. Except unlike Stealers, they get to shoot if they whiff the charge so they still have some impact (and also dirt cheap AG), and then cause of Jorm they get to sit there with a 3+ save and hopefully distract some fire while he gets in with other units.
He was double shooting Biovores vs Knights and vs Custodes, but you could always do it on the Warriors too. Either way they are still DS’ing and charging.
He said he’s dropping some Biovores for OOE. Also don’t consider this list some ironed out game plan, he had a bunch of untested ideas he threw into the list, and also got tabled in his first practice match which contributed to the list name “gak nids” but it was locked in for the event. Luckily for him he played it well and got that 2nd place finish.
What warlord trait did he take? One step ahead for GS buff?
Anybody have recent experience running horde style lists? I've been wanting to pivot back to my Nids but all the lists I've built feel like they won't work out even at the early list building stage and I can't come up with a scenario where the big gun bugs live long enough to shoot or the big chompy bugs make it into cc. Everything just feels so expensive for their durability/offense.
Feeling like 210+ gaunts/gants as the core might be the way to go, but then the killing power is severely reduced so killed more is off the table and killed one is a struggle in ITC and the inherent clock issues with running that many models.
You could run Behemoth for MW strat with Hormagaunt horde. Maybe build the list to get the bulk of its ITC VPs early to mitigate clock issues? Not a full fix, as the list becomes one that tanks its opponents’ scores, but doesn’t get the full game’s worth of VPs needed to really climb the ladder. A gatekeeper, not a last boss.
Maybe embrace that and leverage the fact that most opponents will probably not have practiced much using their lists against hordes. It is a format that disincentivises that sort of list, meaning there’s probably going to be fewer anti-horde measures. If you can be the school of piranha that’s swum into a lake where everything’s adapted to fight whales, it could be open season.
Nitro Zeus wrote: He just considered the Warriors as another unit of Stealers. Except unlike Stealers, they get to shoot if they whiff the charge so they still have some impact (and also dirt cheap AG), and then cause of Jorm they get to sit there with a 3+ save and hopefully distract some fire while he gets in with other units.
He was double shooting Biovores vs Knights and vs Custodes, but you could always do it on the Warriors too. Either way they are still DS’ing and charging.
He said he’s dropping some Biovores for OOE. Also don’t consider this list some ironed out game plan, he had a bunch of untested ideas he threw into the list, and also got tabled in his first practice match which contributed to the list name “gak nids” but it was locked in for the event. Luckily for him he played it well and got that 2nd place finish.
He used the Mawloc to bring in the Warriors with the stratagem. Adrenal Glands give them 8" charge. I'm guessing saved a CP re-roll for it.
TBH other than the Mawloc and Warriors, it looks pretty good to me. And even that isn't terrible either, though I'd at least prefer a Trygon over the Mawloc or something that can have an impact, especially since it would let you move away from Jorm (maybe Behemoth for re-rolls on the Warriors).
Jormungandr gives the Mawloc a 2+ save when it pops up, and the deepstrike strat. If you go with Behemoth you'd be forced to give them a Tyrannocyte, which would suck. Mawloc isn't the best taxi though, because it's rare that it can be both with 2" of enemies and have its passengers outside of 9". I'd consider 3 Raveners and save 40pts.
Trygon is nice when it randomly nails the charge, but it's much more expensive than the Mawloc. It does open up for Kraken instead of Jormungandr.
OOE is nice, too bad he costs 4 Biovores.
Rending Claws on the Warriors? I assume it's because he didn't have enough bits around to give them Boneswords, which are much better for the same cost.
N.I.B. wrote: Rending Claws on the Warriors? I assume it's because he didn't have enough bits around to give them Boneswords, which are much better for the same cost.
I was thinking the same thing; I've run the math and pretty much the only thing Rending Claws are better against is T8/3+ vehicles, and they're still not very good at it.
Honestly I think our melee weapons need a re-work. They need clearer roles and reasons to choose one over another.
Yup, before Cruddace happened, Tyranids had the unique army wide perk of not getting a bonus attack when equipped with two melee weapons, instead they got the special abilities from both. Now in the name of streamlining they have to chose one weapon, like all other factions.
N.I.B. wrote: Rending Claws on the Warriors? I assume it's because he didn't have enough bits around to give them Boneswords, which are much better for the same cost.
I was thinking the same thing; I've run the math and pretty much the only thing Rending Claws are better against is T8/3+ vehicles, and they're still not very good at it.
Honestly I think our melee weapons need a re-work. They need clearer roles and reasons to choose one over another.
This. There's a lot of knights still. Get into CC with them and go to town.
N.I.B. wrote: Rending Claws on the Warriors? I assume it's because he didn't have enough bits around to give them Boneswords, which are much better for the same cost.
I was thinking the same thing; I've run the math and pretty much the only thing Rending Claws are better against is T8/3+ vehicles, and they're still not very good at it.
Honestly I think our melee weapons need a re-work. They need clearer roles and reasons to choose one over another.
This. There's a lot of knights still. Get into CC with them and go to town.
Not sure what you mean, but Tyranid Warriors will never "go to town" on a Knight in cc, regardless of their weapon of choice. Nine rending Warriors averages 3 wounds to a Knight, bonesword Warriors averages 2,64 wounds. The difference is very small, and a nearby Prime for WS boost doesn't help much. Boneswords are clearly the better choice for an all-comers list.
Don’t you get over twice as many GS attacks as you do TW attacks for a given number of points? To say nothing of the more convoluted process required to have TWs reach a Knight. Yeah, they can jump out of like a tunnel, but that requires your opponent to not bother screening a Knight when they can see you have a Trygon.
lindsay40k wrote: Don’t you get over twice as many GS attacks as you do TW attacks for a given number of points? To say nothing of the more convoluted process required to have TWs reach a Knight. Yeah, they can jump out of like a tunnel, but that requires your opponent to not bother screening a Knight when they can see you have a Trygon.
Yeah Warriors are kind of lame as a spearhead unit. Their best feature is half-decent shooting when backed up by a buffing Alpha, and decent survivability along with handing out fearless to your critters.
Nitro Zeus wrote: He just considered the Warriors as another unit of Stealers. Except unlike Stealers, they get to shoot if they whiff the charge so they still have some impact (and also dirt cheap AG), and then cause of Jorm they get to sit there with a 3+ save and hopefully distract some fire while he gets in with other units.
He was double shooting Biovores vs Knights and vs Custodes, but you could always do it on the Warriors too. Either way they are still DS’ing and charging.
He said he’s dropping some Biovores for OOE. Also don’t consider this list some ironed out game plan, he had a bunch of untested ideas he threw into the list, and also got tabled in his first practice match which contributed to the list name “gak nids” but it was locked in for the event. Luckily for him he played it well and got that 2nd place finish.
He used the Mawloc to bring in the Warriors with the stratagem. Adrenal Glands give them 8" charge. I'm guessing saved a CP re-roll for it.
TBH other than the Mawloc and Warriors, it looks pretty good to me. And even that isn't terrible either, though I'd at least prefer a Trygon over the Mawloc or something that can have an impact, especially since it would let you move away from Jorm (maybe Behemoth for re-rolls on the Warriors).
Jormungandr gives the Mawloc a 2+ save when it pops up, and the deepstrike strat. If you go with Behemoth you'd be forced to give them a Tyrannocyte, which would suck. Mawloc isn't the best taxi though, because it's rare that it can be both with 2" of enemies and have its passengers outside of 9". I'd consider 3 Raveners and save 40pts.
Trygon is nice when it randomly nails the charge, but it's much more expensive than the Mawloc. It does open up for Kraken instead of Jormungandr.
I literally said Behemoth if you take a Trygon, because otherwise you are forced to go Jorm. You obviously can’t go Behemoth with the Mawloc and Warriors, that was my point. Swapping to a Trygon gives you a model with damage output closer to being fair for his cost, saves you CP on the strat, and let’s you go Behemoth for the random charge he was making every single time he deployed them and turning that 27% chance into 55%. It costs a little more so Raveners are also an option, that just seemed further away from his list when I picked one.
OOE is nice, too bad he costs 4 Biovores.
I think you mean “Biovores are nice, too bad 4 of them cost as much as OOE”. OOE is priced very nicely, Biovores are still kinda iffy at their cost.
I think you mean “Biovores are nice, too bad 4 of them cost as much as OOE”. OOE is priced very nicely, Biovores are still kinda iffy at their cost.
Well, for sure. OOE is reasonably costed and Biovores were overnerfed (why does it seems that Nids always get the knee-jerk overnerfs) but I'm not sure that list can lose 4 Biovores and work as intended.
I think you mean “Biovores are nice, too bad 4 of them cost as much as OOE”. OOE is priced very nicely, Biovores are still kinda iffy at their cost.
Well, for sure. OOE is reasonably costed and Biovores were overnerfed (why does it seems that Nids always get the knee-jerk overnerfs) but I'm not sure that list can lose 4 Biovores and work as intended.
Nids are always first to get over nerf, i remember 4th to 5th, Cruddance even said once that nids needs to be tone down b.c they can ruin guard to easily, sure it was a joke comment in some white dwarf years ago, but..... comments like that i dont think are jokes.
What specifically are you thinking of? Aggressors are a nuisance but I have not seen anything else that is especially troublesome for Tyranids or Tyranids + GSC.
Admittedly I have not dug too deep into the various codex supplements, so there could be something that I am unaware of.
On the contrary, it could have become easier for us. Sure, those marines are beefed up, but they are now without the cheap screens needed to keep our jaws away from their limbs.
So, I was thinking about how to get to those support character the SM's rely so heavily on. Has anyone tried DSing Zoes in to use their Pychic Barrage strat yet? Seems like a viable way to ruin someone's day.
Eldarain wrote: Tunneling in 9 with Jormangundr could be ok. Fishing for 5s against characters though.
Good players screen DS with scouts or the new non dreadnought warsuit.
Space Marines are way OP now.
Best bet. Ignore the Leviathan dread buff guy, kill everything else. Play for objectives, board control. Take LoS blocking terrain, try and get some charges off where he cant see you so he can't overwatch and then wrap, pile in and consolidate.
Eldarain wrote: Tunneling in 9 with Jormangundr could be ok. Fishing for 5s against characters though.
Good players screen DS with scouts or the new non dreadnought warsuit.
Space Marines are way OP now.
Best bet. Ignore the Leviathan dread buff guy, kill everything else. Play for objectives, board control. Take LoS blocking terrain, try and get some charges off where he cant see you so he can't overwatch and then wrap, pile in and consolidate.
Why not both? And are you sure you're aware of the strategem I'm referring to? You pick a point and roll for units within 3". Screening units be damned.
Alas there's one issue. He can use another stratagem to make nearby buddies to take mortal wounds instead of the character. Albeit that squad takes tons of damage then but character is safe.
(had been hoping to use doom scythe stratagem but with bodyguard unit it's just not enough mortal wounds to kill character)
Just to be clear, the Iron Hands stratagem to shunt wounds from a Character to other units only happens to work in the Shooting phase. Sucks for Doom Scythe strat but Zoanthropes work in a different phase altogether.
Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.
Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.
Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.
Good for you, but I don't think I agree with your assessment. Zoanthropes get 3++, SitW, Synapse and 9 wounds minimum, that's pretty good for 120 points and I don't care if you can target them or not. Oh, they also have Fly and their Smite goes 24" instead of 18". Hive Mind powers are not gak either. Again your assess should not be paid any mind.
By what measure is that pretty good? Ignoring the heals, Neurothropes are 30 pts cheaper, get 2 casts instead of one, have a bonus to casting, and can't even be targeted making them far more durable even with 5 wounds instead of 9. And that's post nerf Neurothropes. Yeah I just don't see it.
Nitro Zeus wrote: By what measure is that pretty good? Ignoring the heals, Neurothropes are 30 pts cheaper, get 2 casts instead of one, have a bonus to casting, and can't even be targeted making them far more durable even with 5 wounds instead of 9. And that's post nerf Neurothropes. Yeah I just don't see it.
Can't use the stratagem with Neurothropes. That was the entire point of my original post, to have a decent chance (5+ rerollable) at sniping out those pesky SM support Characters. If you're happy with just going for objectives and board control then have at it, but yeah Neurothropes are SUPPOSED to be better than Zoanthropes hence they are an upgrade Character version. Duh!
You didn’t mention the stratagem anywhere in the post I responded to. The stats you listed as good are not really at all.
Regardless the stratagem is a massive gimmick. Trygon + 9 Zoanthropes is a big footprint, you need real space to deploy and it’s not at all difficult to screen that out 18” from the castle especially since we don’t really clear screens by shooting. And say you get in and manage to get it off after like 3 turns of impact or whatever, you nuke the character, what then? Put some mortal wounds on half the vehicles and kill the HQ if you’re lucky? So what? We aren’t killing off those Dreads with or without him, the codex doesn’t have the AT for that and that’s not our gameplan without or without the Iron Father up. We want to rake the board and force fall backs on the dreads, 500 pts of Zoanthropes is still a waste even if it all works imo. And it’s a big if, 5+ with a CP reroll even if your opponent left the drawbridge down. Completely unreliable and not at all viable for anyone playing competitive imo
Neurothropes are meant to be better? I’m not sure how that’s a counter to me saying they are better, because yeah, they are much better.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.
Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.
Good for you, but I don't think I agree with your assessment. Zoanthropes get 3++, SitW, Synapse and 9 wounds minimum, that's pretty good for 120 points and I don't care if you can target them or not. Oh, they also have Fly and their Smite goes 24" instead of 18". Hive Mind powers are not gak either. Again your assess should not be paid any mind.
I mean, all you have to do is screen out the smite so its not the closest unit.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.
Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.
Good for you, but I don't think I agree with your assessment. Zoanthropes get 3++, SitW, Synapse and 9 wounds minimum, that's pretty good for 120 points and I don't care if you can target them or not. Oh, they also have Fly and their Smite goes 24" instead of 18". Hive Mind powers are not gak either. Again your assess should not be paid any mind.
I mean, all you have to do is screen out the smite so its not the closest unit.
The fact that the zoanthropes need to forfeit their turn to even try the stratagem and then fail half of the time is just the nail in the coffin. If I could take zoanthropes in 1+ like I can with lictors, that would be a different story. 3++ doesn't mean gak, you will still die to bolter fire like any other power armor does. Synapse you can get from a million other cheaper sources, and 9 wounds are not a lot for 120 pts that can be targeted.
I would however play a wall of 18 zoanthropes blocking pathing to the rest 1200 pts of my kronos gunline tho in some fluffy games. I would call it "The great wall of the mind."
v0iddrgn wrote: Okay, do it your way. Good luck with that at the tournaments I'm sure you've got this. Please post your results here when your finished.
1. Improved AP: It is a nuisance but most of our units are relying on volume of wounds and to hit modifiers for durability, not good saves. I could see this suppressing Carnifexes a bit, but the T8 monsters should still be fine (especially if they get another price drop in the upcoming chapter approved) and it doesn't really affect the Hive Tyrant or Malceptor.
2. Iron Hands Castle: This is probably going to be a meta problem for awhile, but I think we are better equipped than most to deal with it. The entire thing hinges on denying multi-damage, which basically means switch to high rate of fire, low damage guns (Slimer Maggot Deathspitters, Brainleech Devourers) and mortal wound spam. We have a lot of options for dishing out mortal wounds between our psykers, living battering ram, spore mine weapons, Mawlocs, (hyper)Toxic Miasma, Acid Blood, Implant Attack, shock cannons, Swarmy, and tentaclids.
Also worth keeping in mind, our GSC allies have quite a few tools that can help too.
-> Multiple ways to snipe support characters
-> Overwatch denial (Amulet of the Voidwyrm or Mass Hypnosis).
-> Stratagem denial (A Plan Generations in the Making)
v0iddrgn wrote:So, I was thinking about how to get to those support character the SM's rely so heavily on. Has anyone tried DSing Zoes in to use their Pychic Barrage strat yet? Seems like a viable way to ruin someone's day.
As horrible as it sounds, Malceptors in Tyrannocytes could probably do that trick better with their overload ability. No CP cost and a 2+ to "hit" instead of a 4+ with modifiers.
Hey guys. I'm looking to give 40k another shot, after 2 years of playing 30k only..
I wanna start Nids since they're the most different from all the astsrters I've painted the last years.
I know how I wanna paint the buggers but have absolutely No idea about what to do list and tactics wise. Can some of you Experts give me a few hints to what units are great, medium and useless and maybe a few tips and tricks for tactics. Not asking for a full list build for me, just a few highlights of the army.
40 or so Termagants! great for filling out battalions, tarpitting, scoring, and doing all the legwork for your army
Neurothropes Smite + any one power off an excellent table, both in the same turn. I take all 3 and still have spells I wish I could cast from our table. Also the best way of filling out the HQ slots on those cheap battalions
Old One Eye absolute beast of a model whether you take other Carnifexes or not (Carnifexes are also one of our better units).
Genestealers and/or Hormagaunts, you don't need many, one obviously has more teeth than the other, but just use Kraken abilities to speed these guys around the field and either tie a bunch of things up, and if you miss the wrap you force them to fall back and waste their turn for a cheap investment of points (Hormagaunts), or just outright kill them (Genestealers). I take a unit of both and decide which one to sling depending on opponents deployments
If you follow me on that so far you now have two Battalions worth of units. But you gotta add some flavor to that, and the very first thing I'd go for -
Hive Guard! The glue for Tyranids, a unit of 5 or 6 uses the Single Minded Annihilation stratagem to double shoot every turn, safely from behind Line of Sight blocking terrain or inside a building. Great anti-tank which we otherwise lack, great anti-elite, and while expensive, still great value for points. Best CP sink in the army.
Knowing what I know now, if I was just starting today this would be the recommendations I'd give myself
Mostly agree with Nitro Zeus. I think the only units that I'd put as "useless" are the Hive Crone (Harpy does what it wants to do better), individually purchased Spore Mine clusters (expensive, slow, can be gotten for free from weapons), Mucolid Spores (similar reasoning as spore mines, unless you need to fill a brigade cheaply), and the Dimachaeon (some of its rules don't work and the codex melee beasts are significantly cheaper while also being more durable). Just about everything else has at least something it can lend to a list even if it isn't the most optimal pick. Even the Pyrovore is fairly usable now, which is impressive given its track record.
Thenord wrote: Thanks a lot guys. This was just what I was looking for!
Another question.. Carnifex- what's the best variant if you want something al round?
For an all rounder the stock build-your-own Carnifex is probably the best. The other variants are all specialized to one degree or another.
Screamer Killer -> Anti-Heavy Infantry with D6 plasma shots and twin-talons. Also has a small moral penalty for nearby enemies but it isn't a huge factor against most forces.
Stonecrusher -> Anti-Vehicle specialist with various rules that trigger while targeting vehicles and it has high strength. Trade off is that it has less attacks than the other variants (can be mitigated somewhat with the Wrecking Ball biomorph) and it doesn't get +1 to hit rolls with its Living Battering Ram.
Thornback -> Anti-infantry as either a dedicated shooting platform or as a hybrid. Gets extra mortal wounds when ramming infantry and ignores cover with its ranged attacks.
Been having some serious success with 6 shockguard of late (paired with another 6 impguard).
The shockguard I've found are absolutely devastating VS vehicles. Granted they have short range but you can slap catalyst on them which effectively extends it to a possible 35".
Notable kills were double tapping them to take out a battlewagon and dakkajet, two DDAs in another game and a boatload of mortal wounds (albeit lucky) on an IK.
Me likely.
Ratius wrote: Been having some serious success with 6 shockguard of late (paired with another 6 impguard).
The shockguard I've found are absolutely devastating VS vehicles. Granted they have short range but you can slap catalyst on them which effectively extends it to a possible 35".
Notable kills were double tapping them to take out a battlewagon and dakkajet, two DDAs in another game and a boatload of mortal wounds (albeit lucky) on an IK.
Me likely.
I've been running mine as shockguard recently and the 24" doesnt bother me much
Bumping the unit up to 6 feels like its a bit over the top but at the same time I tend to lose 2 models in the first turn or so
I like taking the full 6 as if you absolutely need to kill a heavy vehicle playing SMA almost always ensures it Also you can still split fire if needed.
Thenord wrote: Thanks a lot guys. This was just what I was looking for!
Another question.. Carnifex- what's the best variant if you want something al round?
For an all rounder the stock build-your-own Carnifex is probably the best. The other variants are all specialized to one degree or another.
The Dakkafex-variant with devourers and Bio-acid morph is quite a good all-rounder. Shoots a ton and works in combat as well.
Some stock talon-fexes are nice as well but keep those cheap. More is better.
Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.
Full disclosure, I have no way to validate the credibility of this source.
Dynas wrote: Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.
Full disclosure, I have no way to validate the credibility of this source.
So supposedly the tyrant is $60. Gaunts are $35. The Baal release is $40. Which means likely its not a boxed set with new models.... i feel like nids are being screwed over again
Only thing nids need, model-wise, is sturdier hormagaunts and the final transition to full plastic
I’ve ended up building biovores out of gaunts and barbed stranglers
So shockguard are still decent, then? That’s good, I’ve wishlisted a Hydra detachment with both types. Aim is to have them be dangerous enough that they have to be shot up, then have them recycle & outflank. Somewhat gimmicky, but they have the range for it, and I don’t go in for more than semi-competitive.
I guess if I wanted to make use of the hydra strat, Genestealers are the best candidates? Hormagaunts already get a third of the benefit built in…
But why? Why not just buy the extra unit and have access to them all throughout the game instead of waiting for an enemy to kill them.
Id like to see new bugs and some of the older ones like Horms brought up to useable levels. I ran a pack of 25 into a triple charge last night. Played against Ultramarine Primaris. 10 went into one of the bigger bikes, 10 into a chaplain, and 5 into an (intercessor?) squad. I killed the bike, which already had 2 wounds on it, did one wound to the infantry and one to the chaplain..... and this was with an extra attack thanks to the mission twist that adds 1 for melee. That's 75 attacks with re-rolls to hit and wound rolls of 1.
Dynas wrote: Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.
Repackage just means that they are putting them in boxes with the new standardized slate grey background rather than the older faction-specific ones (mists and biostructures in the background for Tyranids). If we are lucky perhaps they will repack the Termagants with 4 sprues so one can have 20 per box instead of 12. Would make it easier to quickly amass a swarm and they did something similar with Carnifexes coming 2 to a box instead of solos. It would also be nice if they added another weapon sprue to the Hive Tyrant box with the options the kit is currently missing (Brainleech Devourers, Slimer Maggot Deathspitters, Duel Monstrous Boneswords, Monstrous Rending Claws - if they are feeling extra nice perhaps include options for the Monstrous Rending Claws as an option for the legs on the Flying variant).
Regarding the psychic awakening part of the rumor, I wonder if Tyranids are going to get a sequential army rule like the Marine doctrines added on? Tyranids have a very strict cycle to their invasions, so maybe they could have the option of picking a "phase" of the consumption cycle to represent with bonuses dependent on the phase. First phase would probably be directed at gaunts and 'stealers/lictors (maybe flying monsters), second phase mid-sized bugs, and third phase monsters/feeder beasts. Would be a neat way to help certain list archetypes without tinkering with the dataslates.
No other faction is going to get the level of goodness that marines received, so i wouldn't hold any hopes in that regard.
What we are going to have is a "Make your own trait" like the ones eldar got.
I would be highly delighted in a rule that encourages you to not mix hive fleets, which is something that i see as an abomination, but i would set myself for disappointment.
Spoletta wrote: No other faction is going to get the level of goodness that marines received, so i wouldn't hold any hopes in that regard.
What we are going to have is a "Make your own trait" like the ones eldar got.
I would be highly delighted in a rule that encourages you to not mix hive fleets, which is something that i see as an abomination, but i would set myself for disappointment.
If the incentive was at all relevant enough to consider going mono-fleet for, the entire dex would have to be reworked alongside it unless you wanted to do anything other than turn the dex into Codex: Kraken competitively. It's such a fundamental and crucial part of Tyranids competitively, and even a lot of people are putting shooting units into Kraken detachments like Hive Guard and Dakkafex even when Kronos is easily available, just to get them in position more consistently. Our Hive Fleets aren't balanced like the Space Marine chapters are. All that encouraging single hive fleet play in the current state of the dex would achieve is lowering hive fleet diversity to pure Kraken for basically every single list except in the rarest cirumstances / offmeta builds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: not that im against the idea, it would be good, i just think such an idea has to come with the true individualisation of Hive Fleets like the Chapters got, to make it a positive change and each hive desirable in its own right
blood reaper wrote: What's a good start to an actually good/competitive Tyranid army? Just several boxes of Gaunts?
Nothing as of now, we're one of the worst armies out there to play competitively (things *MIGHT* change in December but I'm betting on the supplement not fixing anything since our problems are far more needing an entire codex reworked than mere additional rules)
If it is good for playing against average lists without aiming to win tournaments, then almost anything in the nids arsenal is fine. We are full of choices there.
If you want something for relevant tournaments, then second question. ITC or standard 40K?
In ITC, just forget it, the current top competitive meta is unfriendly to nids.
In standard 40K you can still compete, but it's going to be a hard path.
What they said. I played a 1k game Hydra vs Primaris Ultramarines. I ran 92 models with the extra attack in close combat twist so it was made for my army. I barely won by the skin of my teeth ONLY because we were not playing matched and I could use the Hydra strategem without having to buy the units ahead of time. His 18 models nearly killed 80+.
I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.
We are just severely underpowered. His list was made to take on armor/elite armies. His only anti horde was 3 of the primaris flyers with assault 6 guns and they only shot once with them before my genestealers got stuck in.
blood reaper wrote: What's a good start to an actually good/competitive Tyranid army? Just several boxes of Gaunts?
Nothing as of now, we're one of the worst armies out there to play competitively (things *MIGHT* change in December but I'm betting on the supplement not fixing anything since our problems are far more needing an entire codex reworked than mere additional rules)
Well that is deeply unfortunate.
When I say 'good' I mean able to go toe-to-toe with the slew of top-tier armies (not necessarily top-tier lists) such as Tau and Imperial Guard.
nintura wrote: I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.
.
Rolling bad doesn't help. Nearly half what you should have averaged. Though still splitting into 3 isn't good idea anyway unless it's to tripoint so you don't get shot.
nintura wrote: I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.
.
Rolling bad doesn't help. Nearly half what you should have averaged. Though still splitting into 3 isn't good idea anyway unless it's to tripoint so you don't get shot.
wouldn't matter because ultras can fall back and still shoot anyway, and at full bs. and add -1 ap. etc etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is everyones thoughts on the Uber-Lictor from FW? it seems to be a decent primaris killer if it can get the charge and why wouldn't it?
The Dimacheron? It’s hecking awful. It’s got no rules that help it go fast except a worse fly, no native invuln so it’ll get shot to heck before it makes combat and doesn’t even do that much once it gets there. All for the low cost of 200 points. bargain
Basically you get him stuck in, but the turn he gets to charge he gets:
4 pistol shots at S:3
2 flesh hook shots at S:5
5 Bone Sword attacks at S:5 which can double in damage from Toxin Sacs and you get to roll for Ymgarl beforehand. And even if they stay alive, you get to do that every turn on your turn.
And if you happen to have Warriors/Shrikes nearby, he adds bonuses to them before they charge in as well.
nintura wrote: I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.
.
Rolling bad doesn't help. Nearly half what you should have averaged. Though still splitting into 3 isn't good idea anyway unless it's to tripoint so you don't get shot.
wouldn't matter because ultras can fall back and still shoot anyway, and at full bs. and add -1 ap. etc etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is everyones thoughts on the Uber-Lictor from FW? it seems to be a decent primaris killer if it can get the charge and why wouldn't it?
Tripoints means the unit cannot fall back because you have three models basing one
Basically you get him stuck in, but the turn he gets to charge he gets:
4 pistol shots at S:3
2 flesh hook shots at S:5
5 Bone Sword attacks at S:5 which can double in damage from Toxin Sacs and you get to roll for Ymgarl beforehand. And even if they stay alive, you get to do that every turn on your turn.
And if you happen to have Warriors/Shrikes nearby, he adds bonuses to them before they charge in as well.
You can't fire both the spinefists and the flesh hooks in the same turn. You can either fire your pistols, or your other guns, but not both. It's the same rule that stops space marines from firing both their bolters and bolt pistols at the same time.
Basically you get him stuck in, but the turn he gets to charge he gets:
4 pistol shots at S:3
2 flesh hook shots at S:5
5 Bone Sword attacks at S:5 which can double in damage from Toxin Sacs and you get to roll for Ymgarl beforehand. And even if they stay alive, you get to do that every turn on your turn.
And if you happen to have Warriors/Shrikes nearby, he adds bonuses to them before they charge in as well.
You can't fire both the spinefists and the flesh hooks in the same turn. You can either fire your pistols, or your other guns, but not both. It's the same rule that stops space marines from firing both their bolters and bolt pistols at the same time.
Well thats what i get for never playing gun armies....
To keep another player from complaining, im thinking about dropping some models from my hydra 1k list and adding something. Couple carni sound good? Gives my army some ability to shoot and a couple bouncers to deal with armor/multi wound primaris? Would take me from 92 models to 65 though
To keep another player from complaining, im thinking about dropping some models from my hydra 1k list and adding something. Couple carni sound good? Gives my army some ability to shoot and a couple bouncers to deal with armor/multi wound primaris? Would take me from 92 models to 65 though
I've got to say it's hard to justify putting monsters into a Hydra list. It's the one hive fleet that does nothing for them. Hydra is heavily skewed towards pure swarms.
If you put the carnifexes in, your model count is low enough that I would recommend changing your list to use a different hive fleet. If there are only a couple of units in your list that are getting any benefit from the hive fleet, then it's not the right list for that fleet.
To keep another player from complaining, im thinking about dropping some models from my hydra 1k list and adding something. Couple carni sound good? Gives my army some ability to shoot and a couple bouncers to deal with armor/multi wound primaris? Would take me from 92 models to 65 though
I've got to say it's hard to justify putting monsters into a Hydra list. It's the one hive fleet that does nothing for them. Hydra is heavily skewed towards pure swarms.
If you put the carnifexes in, your model count is low enough that I would recommend changing your list to use a different hive fleet. If there are only a couple of units in your list that are getting any benefit from the hive fleet, then it's not the right list for that fleet.
I agree but I love fluffy nid lists and Ive already painted my fleet as Hydra. The list has 20 gants, 30 gaunts, 10 stealers in 1k. But someone called me out for playing cheese against their ultramarine primaris list. Plus hordes dont do enough to kill primaris or armor. 75 rerolled attacks by a 25 man strong horm squad and I ended up only doing 4 unsaved wounds to primaris marines.... i need some support
That's not cheese even the slightest bit. Your opponent was talking gak.
It's true that tyranid hordes do not kill things though. Outside of genestealers at least.
Tyranid hordes are more geared towards speedily advancing towards, surrounding, and locking down enemy units. Tarpitting them for the whole game while you win on objectives.
If you're dead set on sticking with Hydra, then give it a shot. The carnifexes won't be as good as they would be with another fleet, but they're still alright.
Another option is instead of two carnifexes, add Old One Eye. He's a 9 wound character, so can hide behind your swarms. Giving you a big punchy combat monster, that still denies your enemies anti-tank guns a target.
Arson Fire wrote: That's not cheese even the slightest bit. Your opponent was talking gak.
It's true that tyranid hordes do not kill things though. Outside of genestealers at least.
Tyranid hordes are more geared towards speedily advancing towards, surrounding, and locking down enemy units. Tarpitting them for the whole game while you win on objectives.
If you're dead set on sticking with Hydra, then give it a shot. The carnifexes won't be as good as they would be with another fleet, but they're still alright.
Another option is instead of two carnifexes, add Old One Eye. He's a 9 wound character, so can hide behind your swarms. Giving you a big punchy combat monster, that still denies your enemies anti-tank guns a target.
I could do:
2x neurothrope
15x genestealer
20x hormagaunts
2x20 termagants with 10 devs 1x trygon prime
1x carnifex with enh senses, bone tail, crushing claws, heavy ven cannon, spore cysts
This gives me speed, pressure by weight of options and 79 models for 997 points. Maybe throw in adrenal glands on the fex or trygon
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arson Fire wrote: That's not cheese even the slightest bit. Your opponent was talking gak.
It's true that tyranid hordes do not kill things though. Outside of genestealers at least.
Tyranid hordes are more geared towards speedily advancing towards, surrounding, and locking down enemy units. Tarpitting them for the whole game while you win on objectives.
If you're dead set on sticking with Hydra, then give it a shot. The carnifexes won't be as good as they would be with another fleet, but they're still alright.
Another option is instead of two carnifexes, add Old One Eye. He's a 9 wound character, so can hide behind your swarms. Giving you a big punchy combat monster, that still denies your enemies anti-tank guns a target.
So you're saying the best way to use Horms is as a speedy tarpit that can Pile in 6" so they surround an enemy unit, preventing them from falling back? That makes quite a bit of sense actually.
So you're saying the best way to use Horms is as a speedy tarpit that can Pile in 6" so they surround an enemy unit, preventing them from falling back? That makes quite a bit of sense actually.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Hormagaunts are a fast tarpit unit, that use their 6" pile-in + consolidate moves to surround enemy models, and drag in additional units.
No matter what buffs you give them, hormagaunts will never be an efficient unit for winning in close combat. That is simply not their job. Leave that to the genestealers.
If I can get my hormagaunts into the opponents tanks, I will happily surround them, taking both my hormagaunts and those tanks out of the fight. Potentially for the rest of the game if my opponent has nothing in position to fight the gaunts and rescue the tanks.
If I can surround a single shooty guy, like a hellblaster. Then his unit is no longer able to fall back, even if the rest of them are not surrounded. So his whole unit is going to be stuck until the hormagaunts are dealt with, or the trapped model dies (there are a number of tricks you can use to minimise or eliminate your opponents ability to do that).
This sort of stuff is a lot easier to do with Kraken, as the ability to fall back from combat then charge back in opens up a lot of options. It makes it more difficult for your opponent to intercept you, by doing something like driving a rhino into your gaunts to prevent them from charging his important units.
But it still applies with any hive fleet.
Well here's hoping that Hydra gets some love Another list I like the looks of:
Neuro
Warrior Prime w/ Bone Swords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Ymgarl, Toxin and whatever warlord trait you want
10 Genestealers
30 Horms
2x20 Terms with 10 Devs each
5 Warriors with Boneswords, Adrenal, and Deathspitters, 1 with Venom Cannon
Trygon Prime
88 models, almost all of them gain the Hive Fleet bonus.
The warriors benefit immensely from the prime, knocking them down to BS 3+ or hitting on 2+ in melee, and allowing them to Advance and fire with no penalty. Adrenal on all 6 models allow them a small increased chance to make combat. The 30 Horms can easily be moved into position to block off retreat and the Neuro can give them Catalyst so they stay there.
nintura wrote: I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.
.
Rolling bad doesn't help. Nearly half what you should have averaged. Though still splitting into 3 isn't good idea anyway unless it's to tripoint so you don't get shot.
wouldn't matter because ultras can fall back and still shoot anyway, and at full bs. and add -1 ap. etc etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is everyones thoughts on the Uber-Lictor from FW? it seems to be a decent primaris killer if it can get the charge and why wouldn't it?
Not if you tripoint. Aka surround one model so that it can't move through your bases. Do that and unit can't fall back. Takes 3 models. Apart from that don't split unit as even 5 primaris has 10 wounds that means 30 saves to be forced. That's tall order for lots of unit. Even full ork unit does just 40 and getting 30 orks to 5 primaris is hard. Can't afford to split too much. Tesla immortal shooting? Fully buffed 30 hits, 20 wounds.
And incidentally hormagaunts are pretty darn good for tripointing. Cheap and very fast
I was considering revisiting my nids that I never got around to finishing, only to see that they are one of the worst competitive armies currently. This is sad, but I do love the fact they are like one of the most flexible armies out there since you really can do almost anything with any playstyle. Which is the #1 thing that attracted me to them; the level of variety that you got.
I guess the one good thing is if they are bad in comp play anyways that means I don't need to spam Genestealers if I don't want to, and I can focus on mostly Nidzilla with a few swarms of Termas/Hormas. Never did care for Genestealers that much.
nintura wrote: To keep another player from complaining, im thinking about dropping some models from my hydra 1k list and adding something. Couple carni sound good? Gives my army some ability to shoot and a couple bouncers to deal with armor/multi wound primaris? Would take me from 92 models to 65 though
Perhaps consider some Tyrant Guard broods? With Hydra the Crushing Claw variant can actually hit reasonably hard against vehicles (brood of 3-6 vs single model) and they play well with the other multi-wound infantry.
Wayniac wrote:I was considering revisiting my nids that I never got around to finishing, only to see that they are one of the worst competitive armies currently.
I dunno. I've seen some tournament placements from Tyranids + GSC (Tyrands are the anvil, GSC the hammer). I do think that the traditional Kraken Swarmy-Stealer lists and Jormungandr lists aren't so optimal any more, but I'm not sure if every avenue has been explored yet.
For instance, part of me is curious to see if an invul spam list would work at all. We can technically build lists where everything has an invulnerable save to tailor for the current high AP environment, just a matter of figuring out how to balance out the individual components so that there are enough bodies and damage output to make the list work.
I think Erik Lathouras horde Nids are probably the most competitive right now, though it uses a small detachment of GSC it’s 80% Nids. I think it could work without them but there’s no real reason to turn down a cheap battalion for the easy Cp, powers, utility, and bite that just a few units can bring.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think Erik Lathouras horde Nids are probably the most competitive right now, though it uses a small detachment of GSC it’s 80% Nids. I think it could work without them but there’s no real reason to turn down a cheap battalion for the easy Cp, powers, utility, and bite that just a few units can bring.
Do you have a link to the list? I'd be keen on trying it out.
Trying to help my fiancee' out with her nid army. She has an impressive amount of nids, about 3.5k plus another 2k in GSC. However she doesnt have 60+ of say guants or genestealers. Max 40ish guants and 32 genestealers. Also 4 carnifexes, swarmlord, 2 flyrants, exo and nearly 1-2 of every other unit.
The 6 Hive Guard are she has are auto include, but what would be one of the better ways to build a 1.5k list or 2k?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think Erik Lathouras horde Nids are probably the most competitive right now, though it uses a small detachment of GSC it’s 80% Nids. I think it could work without them but there’s no real reason to turn down a cheap battalion for the easy Cp, powers, utility, and bite that just a few units can bring.
Do you have a link to the list? I'd be keen on trying it out.
IronVaught wrote: Which do you guys think is the better purchase to support a kraken stealer list with OOE and hiveguard.
2x 4 Zoanthropes
Or
4 Melee Carnifex
I'd probably go with the Carnifexes. They give you a bit of added value from Old One Eye's aura and they really like Kraken's trait. Added speed is always helpful, but the second part also allows them to keep Living Battering Ram going every turn for added mortal wounds.
Well we get build a bear custom hive fleets and some way to customize individual units, as well as more relics, WL traits a d strats. It's a good start, even if its lacking in details.
My worry is if it turns into the old version of custom tyranids that they tried several editions back with the previous wave of tyranid models. Those rules were so open to custom designs that not only could they become very quickly broken in terms of power; but they also were very complicated for anyone to work with - doubly so when its not just swapping numbers or cards or such; but swapping around with physical models. You can't magnetize every single thing (I mean you can but you might go all kinds of crazy).
Kinda sad that there's no new Tyranid model (seriously GW what does it take to make a bio/pyro vore kit and a new lictor/leaper kit in plastic?)
Tyranids simply doesn't have the units to become "broken in terms of power" in consideration to the rest of the factions in the game, just off some custom hive fleet rules. And let's be real, it's just going to be something similar but worse than the successor chapter rules. On top of that, remember every faction is getting something of their own in Psychic Awakening over the next few months.
A Hive Fleet would have to be REALLY appealing to make me swap out of Kraken for. Nothing benefits us more than speed.
Better relics will be nice, these ones are the worst. Warlord traits too (though I do like Synaptic Lynchpin, some other desirable options would be nice)
Strats are the main thing I’m interested in here though, but we may have to consider dropping Hive Guard if we get good ones. 4-6 CP worth of double shooting, plus movement & combat strats, are not really going to be sustainable with a bunch of other things dragging on CP - I can barely support the single Perfect Ambush offf my allied GSC battalion.
Nitro Zeus wrote: A Hive Fleet would have to be REALLY appealing to make me swap out of Kraken for. Nothing benefits us more than speed.
Better relics will be nice, these ones are the worst. Warlord traits too (though I do like Synaptic Lynchpin, some other desirable options would be nice)
Strats are the main thing I’m interested in here though, but we may have to consider dropping Hive Guard if we get good ones. 4-6 CP worth of double shooting, plus movement & combat strats, are not really going to be sustainable with a bunch of other things dragging on CP - I can barely support the single Perfect Ambush offf my allied GSC battalion.
you'll likely get to have two tactics. I'll be keeping Hydra for sure, but hopefully I'll get to add something else to bring them in line.
Those adaptations are quite likely our non soup bonus. Sounds great for me that never liked GSC, but I expect some people to have a different reaction...
How do you guys arm your carnifexes? The way I see it giving it a heavy weapon and a close combat weapon is the way to go. What do you think of the spores and senses wargear, is it worth it?
Alkaline_Hound wrote: How do you guys arm your carnifexes? The way I see it giving it a heavy weapon and a close combat weapon is the way to go. What do you think of the spores and senses wargear, is it worth it?
I like Heavy venom cannons with deathspitters. It gives you some much needed ranged firepower that hits on 3+ with senses and -1 to hit for defensive buff. For Melle Fex I like to go 4x dev with an acid maw. I also like thorn backs.
Thae new stuff sounds cool. I hope it makes Nids a tourney worthy force again. I do agree that the old super custom Nids were a pain, you almost needed character sheets for each figure if you went mad... Time will tell....
Alkaline_Hound wrote: How do you guys arm your carnifexes? The way I see it giving it a heavy weapon and a close combat weapon is the way to go. What do you think of the spores and senses wargear, is it worth it?
Depends what you want there are generally 3 broad categories Melee or Ranged or mixed.
I tend to put a tail and spore cysts regardless so:
Melee: Sytal/CC/AG/Tusks (tend to run in a pack with OOE, but rarely used by me.)
Ranged: 4x Div w BLW and enh senses (This build sees regular use as a solid screen clearing/harassment unit)
Ranged: 2x Deathspitter or Div/HVC and Enh senses (I have 2 of these and use them about as much as my melee ones)
Mixed: 2x Div/sytal with head of choice depending on need (I usually go Enh senses but the bioplasma and tusks are both good choices but again rarely used)
For me the 4x Div or Dakkafex is my go to. Also you can do a mixed brood with a Dakkafex and a pair of mixed to give great shooting with some punch in case something decides to assault them. I almost wish I could keep them in a unit rather than them all being independent but having them seperate is usually better anyway.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: How do you guys arm your carnifexes? The way I see it giving it a heavy weapon and a close combat weapon is the way to go. What do you think of the spores and senses wargear, is it worth it?
Some of the "standard" ways are, Dakkafexen: Four Brain leech Devourers, a senses head if you want max accuracy, I usually use Acid maw so I can tangle when needed. Gunfexen: twin shooters up top (Devourers or Deathspitters) and a Heavy cannonon you can use Acid maws, but with that much shooty sensors are likely better. Always use spores as a defensive boost is always useful. Last is pure melee fexen these see less use but are still major thumpers, usually with Ole one eye in tow. ( four scythes and spores is the basic plan)
I have a bunch of Dakkafex (4x Devourer) glued up. They've been workhorses all edition. But in the current meta of power armour, I'm actually considering moving on from them. At the very least, I think the swap from Enhanced Senses to Acid Maws is mandatory for them, and they need to be viewed as hybrid units. Devourers for chewing up screens and just chipping off a wound here and there under weight of dice, with Acid Maws to let them still put in some work vs Primaris. 2 Carnifex on the charge are putting 10 wounds on a squad of Intercessors, and thats without an OOE bubble in range. 5 more wounds from the Devourers too. It's not massive damage, but it's relevant at least, and they do the same amount of damage to tougher things like Aggressors and Cents as well.
One thing I will say, is run them in multiples, one does nothing. Always include a Bone Mace, it's 2pts and even for a single extra attack that's pretty good, the fact that it's a quality attack is even better.
I`m probably going to get shouted at a lot for this (heh) but I run many many Screamer Killers alongside Old One Eye, there again, I fight a LOT of Primaris only marines and even a couple of Wraithhosts. With a bit of cover from venomthropes they murder heavy infantry, and I have even managed to kill some stuff (not much admittedly but still 5 or 6 d6 worth of spit is gonna hit something right?) with the plasma. People tend to ignore them a lot and then get eaten.
Yes, its expensive. Yes there are more point efficient options out there, but the good ole SK is vastly underappreciated in my opinion. Maybe its because I am an old man still stuck in the times when the only fex you got was the SK, but I`ve never really liked the way the guns look on fex models (especially bunnyhead).
I run mono Kraken as fleet, and have done for years as the Ichar 4 campaign made a great impression on 13 year old me. Run them up the board asap, spit plasma at anything you can reach and hope for something to die, then charge. Simple, more effective than people think, probably not tournament efficient.
I am really looking forward to possibly being able to give big nids synapse as this may be the salvation of my Tyrannocyte collection. Currently only used to drop in the occasional distraction fex or acid t-fex.
Nitro Zeus wrote:I have a bunch of Dakkafex (4x Devourer) glued up. They've been workhorses all edition. But in the current meta of power armour, I'm actually considering moving on from them.
I'm a bit curious if 4x Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots would be worth exploring as a potential anti-marine load out. The AP isn't great, but it cancels out cover at least and the strength bump adds a bit of flexibility against T7 vehicles (Warsuits, Dreadnaughts, Impulsors, Aircraft).
princeyg wrote:I`m probably going to get shouted at a lot for this (heh) but I run many many Screamer Killers alongside Old One Eye.
I'd actually love to try this sort of a list, with perhaps the addition of a couple Exocrines just to double down on plasma spitting fun. Like you said, probably not tournament competitive but I can only imagine it would be a blast to play.
Yeah that Leviathan power is just... poorly thought out. I run Leviathan and I want more Synapse to make sure I'm getting the Adaptation... so I rarely have units out of range anyways that would require the boost. I could see it being nice IF the Apadtation said you just need to be in Synapse range to get the 6+++... but it doesn't. You still have to be within 6" of a Synapse unit. It's buffing something that is directly counter to Leviathan's synergy. It'd be like if the Kraken power benefits units for remaining stationary.
I am liking the Relic though. Since our Relics are mostly straight garbage it'll be nice to maybe actually have some fun options. The stratagem is fun and fluffy too.
I remember when Domination was our Primaris power (basically what Smite is now) and we still never cast it.
But hey Leviathan can get it twice now! Hooray!
Honestly, this might actually be alright in some of the Leviathan lists I've seen do well like the Erik Lathouras one, but you'd never really select it at the start of the game so because of the way powers work its just kinda gak.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I remember when Domination was our Primaris power (basically what Smite is now) and we still never cast it.
But hey Leviathan can get it twice now! Hooray!
Honestly, this might actually be alright in some of the Leviathan lists I've seen do well like the Erik Lathouras one, but you'd never really select it at the start of the game so because of the way powers work its just kinda gak.
This however. This is good.
If it was -1 to hit that stacked with spores it would be good. Great even. This is poopy. In fact it doesn't even make sense in terms of the theme of the ability and the effect.
I might be mistaken, but if I am reading the new power correctly it affects all Leviathan synapse creatures in the army, not just the caster. It might be worth taking as a second power on a backfield Neurothrope that has nothing better to do.
Also remember the current dominion is synapse benefits for a single squad, not an extension on the caster’s synapse range like it used to be. Doesn’t make the new power any more inspiring, but it gives it a bit of a niche at least.
If it was -1 to hit that stacked with spores it would be good. Great even. This is poopy. In fact it doesn't even make sense in terms of the theme of the ability and the effect.
The effect is the same as the Lictor's chameleonic skin ability, so it is at least internally consistent with the army. If it were not for the infantry or monster restriction, I would think it would be really nice for a big brood of Jormungandr Raveners being used as a drop off point.
Impalor cannon down 5
Acid spray down 5
Rupture Cannon down 14
tervigon down 18 to 180
Trygon and trygon prime down 10 to 139 and 168
Toxicrene down 15 to 125
Tyranid warriors down 2 to 18
Tyranid Horde wrote: Warriors still not good then eh? I have a brood I'd love to use again.
I've had warriors do real work against... Literally anything except the new Marines. They're able to mix it up in melee and range with the tried and true Boneswords + Deathspitter.
I DO miss my Tyranid prime having access to bio-cannons
But I have had quite good luck with multiple squads of 3 warriors each with Venom cannon, BS + DS with a prime for synapse and ability to eat a screen himself shooting + Charging.
One (small, very small) point for the adaptive physiology. We select it at list building. Which means, if you take a monstrous brood (3 carnifexes), they are still one unit before they split, so you can trade your WT to have 3 carnifexes with adaptive physiology abilities.
Warriors have had a decent drop I will really need to test them out to see the effect. 255pts for a brood of 9 with bone swords deathspitters adrenal glands and 3 venom cannons is not bad.
I hope the Tyranid Prime drops a bit too.
I'm wondering if a fat unit of warriors in ruins with the new adaptation (+2 to cover) in midfield would be a solid force. They have 2+ armor, 3 wounds, they are plenty shooty and plenty killy in close combat, and give out synapse. Could be a force to hold down the middle of the table and threat in multiple ways.
So a Jorg Hive fleet with a Prime and 3 max size units of warriors will cost 843 (from 897). In the open (counts as in cover with jorg trait) will have a 2+sv. If you give the Prime the Incidous threat WL trait it ignores opp cover. Has a huge footprint and is super tough. Add a Venomthrope brood or a Malanthrope and you have a brutal center field that shoud be hard as nails to move and could support/surround a few big guns like exocrines or Tyrannofex.
Edit: Sorry got carried away only one unit can have the adaptation and it's at the cost of the WL trait.....oh well at least it's 54 pts cheaper...lol
Timeshadow wrote: So a Jorg Hive fleet with a Prime and 3 max size units of warriors will cost 843 (from 897). In the open (counts as in cover with jorg trait) will have a 2+sv. If you give the Prime the Incidous threat WL trait it ignores opp cover. Has a huge footprint and is super tough. Add a Venomthrope brood or a Malanthrope and you have a brutal center field that shoud be hard as nails to move and could support/surround a few big guns like exocrines or Tyrannofex.
You have to give up your warlord trait to get the physiology, and -unless we hear something else- only one unit can have it. But 2+ armor tyranid warriors out in the open with -1 to hit does indeed sound sexy. tyranid terminators anyone?
Also, because the physiology is being used in the list and not on the table, you can replace a WT to buff a full unit of 3 Jorm Carnifexes before they split, giving you 3 carnifexes with 1+ armor out in the open. And this I dig VERY much, especially if fexes see a points drop (helbrutes dropped 20 points, so why shouldn't fexes too?)
Hah hah nids really got punched hard it seems in this end of year 2019. I still remember back when our codex dropped how everyone was so happy about their nid army... hah the good old days.
Now to the salt mines !
We still have to see which buffs we received in CA. We only got to see a minor part of the unit list and in there more than half the units received the cut. This makes me hope for the other page.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm very excited for Jorm Hierodule with a 1+ save in the open. That's basically 4++ vs most AT as well.
If it gets like 150 pts cheaper maybe.
It’s really not that bad at all, and being able to buff it like this is definitely playable. It has some good tricks to make up for what a Knight has that it doesn’t.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm very excited for Jorm Hierodule with a 1+ save in the open. That's basically 4++ vs most AT as well.
If it gets like 150 pts cheaper maybe.
It’s really not that bad at all, and being able to buff it like this is definitely playable. It has some good tricks to make up for what a Knight has that it doesn’t.
Unless you face someone having his/her 1st ever 40k game, it is definitely NOT playable
There was a rumor going around that FW stuff was getting a balance pass this year, since there were no adjustments to FW points last year. Let's wait and see before jumping to conclusions.
While I am quite disappointed in the PA preview, I do think that the idea of adaptive physiology on a Hierodule might have some merit if they get a reasonable points drop.
Emicrania wrote: I mean that is the Preview of the juicy stuff. Think about the poor other changes ...
My dear nids will sit on a shelf for long time still...
That's not inherently true.
For example, CSM got some serious goodies out of Faith and Fury. They're not nearly enough to make chaos marines great enough, nor are they as good as what the favorite-son of loyalist SM got. That doesn't take away from the fact that they got some of the best stratagems / relics in the game in that book. Ones which weren't featured in the sneak peak.
While it's foolish to hope that nids are going to magically be shot to the top of the competitive list in this book while they're opposite loyalist marines, it's horribly pessimistic to assume that the preview is showing us "the best of the best" for what the book will hold.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm very excited for Jorm Hierodule with a 1+ save in the open. That's basically 4++ vs most AT as well.
If it gets like 150 pts cheaper maybe.
It’s really not that bad at all, and being able to buff it like this is definitely playable. It has some good tricks to make up for what a Knight has that it doesn’t.
Unless you face someone having his/her 1st ever 40k game, it is definitely NOT playable
I literally just went undefeated at an event over the weekend while using one. Someone else got 4th place at a larger GT as well on the same day. So you’re factually incorrect on that one at the very least.
If you don’t know how to use it you may struggle. Otherwise it is actually a decent unit. And it just got a WHOLE lot better.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm very excited for Jorm Hierodule with a 1+ save in the open. That's basically 4++ vs most AT as well.
If it gets like 150 pts cheaper maybe.
It’s really not that bad at all, and being able to buff it like this is definitely playable. It has some good tricks to make up for what a Knight has that it doesn’t.
Unless you face someone having his/her 1st ever 40k game, it is definitely NOT playable
I literally just went undefeated at an event over the weekend while using one. Someone else got 4th place at a larger GT as well on the same day.
If you don’t know how to use it you may struggle. Otherwise it is actually a decent unit. And it just got a WHOLE lot better.
Pitiful? No. A little below what you may expect from a 400 pt unit, sure. But it has other excellent strengths and can just do a bunch of stuff that a Knight cannot. It’s a finesse unit that takes more thought to play than the average Knight, but this also comes with a lot of options. I took the right risks and it killed over its value in points every single game of the event! And weathered a bunch of fire while doing so. How it plays was not reflected at all by its data sheet, there’s a lot of hidden value in there. The player who got 4th at the GT beat out a ton of nasty stuff with it by the last round was undefeated, and he lost only to that Iron Hands player who that ended up winning the event.
Are we talking about the thing that costs 430 pts and shoots 12 shots str 8 d3 damage with BS 4+? So basically what 6 hive guard do, only with worse BS, without ignoring cover, without being able to shoot out of LoS and without being able to shoot twice, for the bargain price of 150 pts more expensive? This is the thing we are talking about?
The thing that costs knight points and has less wounds and no invuln save, and absolutely zero utility?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Are we talking about the thing that costs 430 pts and shoots 12 shots str 8 d3 damage with BS 4+? So basically what 6 hive guard do, only with worse BS, without ignoring cover, without being able to shoot out of LoS and without being able to shoot twice, for the bargain price of 150 pts more expensive? This is the thing we are talking about?
The thing that costs knight points and has less wounds and no invuln save, and absolutely zero utility?
No. I'm obviously talking about the Scythed Hieodule, who is cheaper, better, hits harder, and has a ton more utility. Both me and and the guy who used it over in Fresno to do extremely well were using the Scythed Hierodule.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Pitiful? No. A little below what you may expect from a 400 pt unit, sure. But it has other excellent strengths and can just do a bunch of stuff that a Knight cannot. It’s a finesse unit that takes more thought to play than the average Knight, but this also comes with a lot of options. I took the right risks and it killed over its value in points every single game of the event! And weathered a bunch of fire while doing so. How it plays was not reflected at all by its data sheet, there’s a lot of hidden value in there. The player who got 4th at the GT beat out a ton of nasty stuff with it by the last round was undefeated, and he lost only to that Iron Hands player who that ended up winning the event.
I wouldn’t write it off. Especially not now.
Do you mind going into a little more detail? I'd like to put the Hierodule to good use, but just calling it a finesse unit and saying it can do stuff a Knight can't is really vague.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Pitiful? No. A little below what you may expect from a 400 pt unit, sure. But it has other excellent strengths and can just do a bunch of stuff that a Knight cannot. It’s a finesse unit that takes more thought to play than the average Knight, but this also comes with a lot of options. I took the right risks and it killed over its value in points every single game of the event! And weathered a bunch of fire while doing so. How it plays was not reflected at all by its data sheet, there’s a lot of hidden value in there. The player who got 4th at the GT beat out a ton of nasty stuff with it by the last round was undefeated, and he lost only to that Iron Hands player who that ended up winning the event.
I wouldn’t write it off. Especially not now.
Do you mind going into a little more detail? I'd like to put the Hierodule to good use, but just calling it a finesse unit and saying it can do stuff a Knight can't is really vague.
No worries whatsoever, you're absolutely right that it's just vague buzzwords really, and I'm happy to elaborate.
The first thing is it's threat range. You move a full twelve and advance a flat 6" if you want to use Onslaught. You can double this with a Swarmlord. This let's you make BIG movements, and knowing how to take advantage of big movement speed is already a point of skill and opens up a lot of choice. And with a 3D6 charge (drop the lowest dice) you can actually be pretty confident in a 8+" charge. You don't take bigger risks unless you need to, you can often use regular movement and park in front of your target if you can. With that sort of movement you can really scan the whole board and look for an opening and just dart out of nowhere to do it.
What that opening is depends on the opponents. Against something like AdMech I put him right up point blank range against the rangers in front of the planted Phosphex bots, dakka + acid downed the screen, and in the charge phase bust into the bots and chew them up, keeping myself safely locked in combat with the bot unit incapable of falling back, and also forcing fallbacks on anything else that I could base with him, infantry just simply isn't doing anything but dying to T8/3+/24W. You can look for units that you can block in to walls or corners with your big base. But that's just the start of the cute stuff. In one of my games I had been making a safe advane under the Malanthrope, my opponent was being cautious - but I saw an opportunity, used the movement to circle around the back of some infantry, charged a Daemon Prince and a Sorceror with a bit of a gap between each other. Killed the DP, used the fight twice strat to pile into the sorcerer and absolutely shred him, then used the Overrun strat to move back 18" back into the Malanthrope bubble, where he sat with Catalyst on him for another turn, felt like a real checkmate play. At some point you can just make a decision to cut him loose. He's killed some stuff, and it's going to take a ton of resources to kill him, and you can snag another good kill out of it, and force some fallbacks? Just throw him out there and let him go ham. He has some big dice so he can really surprise you. There's a lot of decision making that goes into him, and he felt nothing like the point and click of a Knight which almost plays itself. He can dart in and out of combat and look for smart ways to measure more efficiency out of his cost at pretty much every point of the game.
That's another strength of combined resiliency, T8, 24W, -1 to be shot from a Malanthrope, The Horror + Mass Hypnosis cast on the units you think have the best chance of hurting him, Catalyst, and now this new adaptation to give him a '1+ save', and if you want? (although you lose it when you charge, that's fine). Then the range he can threaten, as well as the ability to double fight (which provides a LOT more than just the ability to hit twice, although it does effectively double his damage output if used right) are options that just aren't available to a Knight. And then the Acid Spray makes him a much tougher prospect to charge - it was above average rolls, but he actually one shot a Slaanesh Elixir DP that made it to charge range, and thats the risk you are forcing on them in a dice game. He's a bit cheaper than most Knights, and has his own set of strengths, while Knights have theirs. I played an MC heavy list, when I was originally bringing him the idea was to hope that my opponents focused on him and let the other guys roll through, but he more than pulled his weight in other regards. Just make sure you have the CP to support him.
Where I go with Nids from here depends what else we get in Psychic Awakening, but I'll highly likely be putting a Hierodule back on the table considering how much this improves him.
On another note, the adaptive camoflage is also pretty good on Carnifexes. It happens pre-game when they are all one unit, so you can affect an entire brood of 3 with.
3x 1+ save, -1 to hit Jorm Carnifexes is going to be better than any of our (current) Warlord traits. Maybe good with HVC and Deathspitters since you don't really want to be running them. As I said, the Dynamic Camo is good.
@Nitro
Swarmlord plus scythed hierodule, plus you need to not fail onslaught. Then if all works, fight twice and onslaught.
Yeah ok it will do some damage.
So you run also a malanthrope, which I also really like (pity it is FW), but what else do you bring with those more or less 1200 points left ?
You don’t need Swarmy (I didn’t take him, the other guy did though). I actually decided against the Swarmlord, people get their heckles up when they see him everyone knows he can send units shooting up the field. Even the best players get caught off guard by units they are unfamiliar with and talk about this often in event rundowns, so I wanted to leverage this aspect of the Hierodule. Still, it’s good synergy there if you want to take one.
Onslaught isn’t some risk that you take every time you activate. It’s a great spell and it’s not like it’s costing points, I’m taking Neurothropes regardless. Rerolls on the cast makes it pretty reliable, but you hedge your bets and have back up plans. You adapt to the matchup, I actually opted for Psychic Scream most games and only took Onslaught a couple of times. Once to quickly push down a nasty gunline in case I saw a good opportunity to do it (which I did), and another time I actually cast it on a unit of Termagants to get the 360 surround on a midfield unit. If I failed it’s unlikely, but I had a back up option, spend the CP to double fight and clear the unit, then Overrun back protection. You want to avoid advancing the Hierodule where you can anyway because his flamer is quite nice. Don’t look at Onslaught as some inbuilt risk that the Hierodule has to take just to work because it's not like that at all, look at it as a great option you CAN go for when you feel you want to take that chance (and it's one with pretty good odds honestly). A good grip on the flow of the game and knowledge of your enemies capabilities will help you know when to do that. 40k is about taking measured risks, and having more options is never bad. If you keep creative and look for the smart plays I think the Hierodule is better than the data sheet suggests in the hands of a good player.
So you run also a malanthrope, which I also really like (pity it is FW), but what else do you bring with those more or less 1200 points left ?
I mean when I run big bugs, I like the Malanthrope a lot, so I'm taking him regardless. I also think taking a Hierodule is also best taken in a Nidzilla style list, so if they can dedicate what it takes to bring him down the other guys get a pass for at least one turn, to help them get set-up in range. And of course a bunch of gants for scoring. This is exactly what the other Hierodule guy did too, Malanthrope and Nidzilla.
I personally ran some Acid Spray Tyrannofex because I thought they would synergise well with the Hierodule, and a bunch of Dakkafex to clear chaff. It only took a turn or so to get in threat range, as the Tyrannofex were Kraken with Adrenal Glands and thus we basically moved at their speed, which was about 12-13 inches. Basically every enemy army needs to come into the middle of the field in some form or another in 8th, but even when that doesn't happen, its only a turn or so before you're in their face and plus you own the board.
I was expecting some scary melee at this event, and when you have a malanthrope with brickwall in front of it consisting of the 2x Tyrannofex and a Hierodule in a "|A.B.A|" sort of line, well that gave up nothing that they can use to avoid the Hieorodule overwatch by charging and piling in on him - as the Tyrannofex Acid Spray is almost just as scary. To expand, my worry was some smart ass will be 9" out from the Hierodule with a Skullreaver Daemon Prince but 6" out from the guy on his left - declare a charge on both outside of acid spray range, make the easy roll to get in but then pile in to the Hierodule and go for breakfast. I didn't want to give this up for free, I wanted them to push them into paying the cost of eating his overwatch if they wanted to get in on him in most cases, as I think it's one of the other strengths of the model. This decision may have ended up paying off dividends for me (the Hierodule overwatch literally 1 shot the Slaanesh blender-DP and a ChainLord in the same turn, and I also dunked on another guy using Warptime on a Skullreaver DP), but I'm not sure it's even necessary.
While my list worked enough to get me where I got, in hindsight I'm not sure that this was the perfect mix, some AP would be nice and Exocrines are looking good (the other guy took them too), so I may swap the Tyrannofex out. It might mean I get shredded up by some galaxy brain with a big axe some game, but at least I'd have better answers to the Centurions and Aggressors out there menacing my meta.
I guess there was a Q&A on the new nids. Some things mentioned:
We will have a stratagem for additional trait / adaptation.
we were promised buffs for monsters, for example a stratagem for certain of them.
There will be two different adaptation tables - separately for monsters, separately for infantry.
one of the adaptations for the infantry - ignore -1 and -2 AP.
There was a mention of 6" heroic and mortal wounds from the shooting, but you're not sure who it is for, apparently for the monsters.
Confirmed that there will be several pages of stratagems.
Also a game vs World Eaters is going on the twitch channel to explain the new stuff.
nintura wrote: I guess there was a Q&A on the new nids. Some things mentioned:
We will have a stratagem for additional trait / adaptation.
we were promised buffs for monsters, for example a stratagem for certain of them.
There will be two different adaptation tables - separately for monsters, separately for infantry.
one of the adaptations for the infantry - ignore -1 and -2 AP.
There was a mention of 6" heroic and mortal wounds from the shooting, but you're not sure who it is for, apparently for the monsters.
Confirmed that there will be several pages of stratagems.
Also a game vs World Eaters is going on the twitch channel to explain the new stuff.
We don't know yet. It's also possible it will be restricted to Exocrines, the design team talked about stratagems for most monsters, and this was one of them.
We will know more tomorrow when the video reviews come out.
If we really get a stratagem to fight on top bracket, i'm a happy bug.
The awful wound chart of the toxycrene was the worst problem of that model, which otherwise is an incredibly good beatstick for the new point cost.
By the way, if we are not taking our (awful) warlord traits, does this mean that i can nominate a spore mine as my warlord without losing anything and never give my opponent the chance to slay my warlord?
There are no missions currently in CA18 that require to score with your warlord. Got to see the new CA19 missions though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If kroots are really going to 4 points, i PRETEND 4 points hgaunts.
nintura wrote: But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.
Asking the real question here
Not like we cant spam them. Its what, 279 for 2 neuros and 3 rippers, both of which are useful units
The value of Rippers really starts to fall off after the first two or so units, you generally want more bodies aka Termagants.
Also three Neurothropes are great but that’s like a battalion and a half, and that’s the start point for Nids. Old One Eye to finish battalion two I guess and then there’s no other Tyranid HQ’s I want to waste points on, I’d look to GSC for that third one.
So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.
They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.
We have it all compiled over at the tyranid hive. Am I allowed to post the link?
Surprise Ambush 1 CP Lictor entirely on or within a terrain feature and also arriving from deep striking that very turn gets +1" to charge and can't be shot in Overwatch
Tyran wrote: So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.
They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.
Power swords wielding Hormas can be a thing now.
You also lose your re-roll to misses for Hydra if you pick the 6++ for all terms, horms, and gargoyles.
Now i understand why hormagaunts are still 5 points.
Spamming them is now something that can actually work really well.
They have the means to hurt and the means to get in contact with the target.
My lists will probably start with 3x30 of those lovely little critters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought.
A trygon prime with the adaptation +1/+1/+1 and 3d6 charge relic is a monster (pun intended).
Put him in a detachment with +1 to hit on charge and you have 7 attacks hitting on 2, Str 8 (reroll all wounds for 1 CP), AP-4, Damage D6+1. Can fight again for 3 CP. Can fight again if killed (hits on 4+).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a tyrannocyte with the MW on ranged casualties adaptation becomes an horrid thing to face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly i don't get the negativity around PA3.
I really think that we are marine level with these changes, i'm not joking. We are too fast, we hit too hard, we are cheap enough to overload with threats, we negate overwatch...
Just a list with 300 hormagaunts without any additional thought will be competitive.
The problem with 300 HG you will never do anything after T2/3 because you LL get clocked out.
I play 192 models with orks, 115 grots that just need positioning for grot shield, and, even with movement trays, I barely make it .
Tyran wrote: So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.
They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.
Emicrania wrote: The problem with 300 HG you will never do anything after T2/3 because you LL get clocked out.
I play 192 models with orks, 115 grots that just need positioning for grot shield, and, even with movement trays, I barely make it .
So do I, and just like you I barely make it. 300, even just 200 Hormas will take longer and trays for them are next to impossible with the talons sticking out. But a 90 horma battalion stacking ap2 on them sounds ok. Though when you math it out 60 attacks hitting on 4s is not great. How can we make em hit on 3s ? They are garbage otherwise at killing no ? Ok they reroll ones but that ain’t so great. You do what 13 wounds to a toughness 4 or 5 unit with a full 60 strong unit ? Mmmm
Kraken is just better than any of the custom Hive Fleets. This is the worst part of the reveal but whatever.
The new Psyker Relic is great. I couldn't invent a better relic honestly.
The adaptations are quite good. A solid buff to Old One Eye on the MC is just a really safe solid use of the warlord trait, and beyond that there's a ton of other application.
Some of the new strats are really good. Some are a bit bad but thats okay, there's a lot of them.
This has mostly served to make some worse units better, they avoided making the good stuff better in most cases. There is no real chance that this takes us to marine tier but it definitely helps vs the rest of the game. Until they get their Psychic Awakening at least.
I'm kinda liking the look of Warriors now.
The ignore -1 and -2 AP adaptive physiology trait should work nicely with them. Particularly if you can throw it on a couple of units. Alternatively the +2 to cover one would work fairly well too, if you want Jorm warriors with a 2+ save.
They also have a fairly decent sounding stratagem to reduce the damage of weapons fired at them by 1.
Coupled with our usual defensive stuff (malanthrope, catalyst, maybe the new maleceptor stratagem), you get a unit that seems pretty hard to put down.
Not to mention they're now a couple of points cheaper.
I might finally paint up all the second hand ones I bought for cheap a few years ago, and try running them in a few games.
I would never look at Kraken again (or any other standard fleet) with the custom adaptation we have.
If i'm reading it right, we can put a unit of horma in melee turn 1 without even charging if we start. If we don't, we can put all our horma in melee end of turn 1.
Kraken is too slow now compared to the other options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: Ok no, exact wording of the adaptations is out. Too bad, it didn't work as spoiled...
Emicrania wrote: The problem with 300 HG you will never do anything after T2/3 because you LL get clocked out. I play 192 models with orks, 115 grots that just need positioning for grot shield, and, even with movement trays, I barely make it .
So do I, and just like you I barely make it. 300, even just 200 Hormas will take longer and trays for them are next to impossible with the talons sticking out. But a 90 horma battalion stacking ap2 on them sounds ok. Though when you math it out 60 attacks hitting on 4s is not great. How can we make em hit on 3s ? They are garbage otherwise at killing no ? Ok they reroll ones but that ain’t so great. You do what 13 wounds to a toughness 4 or 5 unit with a full 60 strong unit ? Mmmm
12 wounds with a 30 strong unit, which for 150 points isn't exactly bad. With -2 AP it means almost wiping out an intercessor squad. With -3 it is wiped.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, what is hyve consensus on the new tyrannocite?
As i see it, it is the better pod right now in game.
The smurf one costs 10 points less and can arrive turn 1, but it is so limited in what it can bring that is rarely used. It is also bad equipped and cannot move.
Our pod for 10 point more can carry a lot of stuff, including monsters, has a decent firepower and after landing is not a useless lump of metal that an enemy can hug to become immune to shooting, but is a little monster going around capping and putting things in melee (with fly).
All the Baal stuff, the strats especially seem like beta testing to me. Most of them are specific to a particular unit as a sort-of band aid, like they wanted to buff the unit but didn't want to risk making an OP mess for a year or so till the next codex comes out.
I wouldn't be surprised to see stuff like the Hormie -1AP or Haruspex reroll hits become am on-the-charge rule in the next codex.
Exocrine. If there was ever a meta for high RoF + high AP, it’s this one. On top of the point reduction, the Exocrine benefits from adaptations both defensive (Invul + Double bracket) and offensive (D3 bonus mortal wounds on a pinged unit) which I believe can be selected as per match up, he also gets big mileage off the Kronos power for a ton more hits, as well as their very own stratagem.
Big bugs. This sort of goes without saying, but also not. The biggest thing holding back big bugs was the fact that no other big bugs were good. Any one good bug you include will just provide an obvious first target for any hostile AT. Big bugs that didn’t get much better actually did get much better just by virtue of there being other big bugs worth pairing them with.
Lictors. These things were already better Rippers some games. Their new stratagem is amazing. Very low investment to deal with hostile overwatch (something that has been growing increasingly scary). Might not sound like much on paper, but when it’s 33 pts to save you like 10 Genestealers or more, this starts looking a lot better. And in match ups where that’s not relevant, just save the CP and use them as Rippers, or a targeted scalpel to help out on offense with a few more dice. These are very strong now. And the custom Hive Fleets actually have a purpose here. Lictors never really got much from our main Hive Fleets, they already deploy where they need to be and reroll charges so Kraken and Behemoth do very little for them, most of them are pretty much wasted in Lictors. But a custom Hive Fleet Vanguard of 3 of them, I’m sure there’s some more utility you can squeeze off them. At a cursory glance, -1 LD bubble helps a Mental Onslaught Patriarch ally (STILL zone of the most powerful spells in the game), and leading the detachment with a Neurothrope rerolling all casts can only be good. But I’m sure you could find better. Point is it’s another way it got better.
On the topic of Neurothropes, Resonance Barb is absurdly good. What a great relic. Guaranteed inclusion in every single mono Nid list, and probably in Nid soup too. Just so damn good. It’s a Crouchling that doesn’t expire, and gives an extra deny, and that was GSCs best relic already. I will be taking this so often that I might even model a barbed psychic crown around my lead Neurothropes head. Well, maybe not based on how quickly GW retires relics in each edition, even then I’m still considering it.
OOE. Thanks to adaptation. S8 OOE is amazing. He’s now wounding Knights on 2+ with Claws and marines on 2+ with Talons. Rhino sized vehicles on 3+ with Talons too. Flat 4 damage has obvious application vs vehicles but also helps put multi wound Iron Hand things like Cents and Aggressors and in the dirt for good. And AP4 means they don’t even get that niggly 6+ anymore.
I’ll post again later with the things I think are a bit of a bill, I think there’s a bit of theory hype for some stuff that might fall a little flat in practice.
Exocrine. If there was ever a meta for high RoF + high AP, it’s this one. On top of the point reduction, the Exocrine benefits from adaptations both defensive (Invul + Double bracket) and offensive (D3 bonus mortal wounds on a pinged unit) which I believe can be selected as per match up, he also gets big mileage off the Kronos power for a ton more hits, as well as their very own stratagem.
Big bugs. This sort of goes without saying, but also not. The biggest thing holding back big bugs was the fact that no other big bugs were good. Any one good bug you include will just provide an obvious first target for any hostile AT. Big bugs that didn’t get much better actually did get much better just by virtue of there being other big bugs worth pairing them with.
Lictors. These things were already better Rippers some games. Their new stratagem is amazing. Very low investment to deal with hostile overwatch (something that has been growing increasingly scary). Might not sound like much on paper, but when it’s 33 pts to save you like 10 Genestealers or more, this starts looking a lot better. And in match ups where that’s not relevant, just save the CP and use them as Rippers, or a targeted scalpel to help out on offense with a few more dice. These are very strong now. And the custom Hive Fleets actually have a purpose here. Lictors never really got much from our main Hive Fleets, they already deploy where they need to be and reroll charges so Kraken and Behemoth do very little for them, most of them are pretty much wasted in Lictors. But a custom Hive Fleet Vanguard of 3 of them, I’m sure there’s some more utility you can squeeze off them. At a cursory glance, -1 LD bubble helps a Mental Onslaught Patriarch ally (STILL zone of the most powerful spells in the game), and leading the detachment with a Neurothrope rerolling all casts can only be good. But I’m sure you could find better. Point is it’s another way it got better.
On the topic of Neurothropes, Resonance Barb is absurdly good. What a great relic. Guaranteed inclusion in every single mono Nid list, and probably in Nid soup too. Just so damn good. It’s a Crouchling that doesn’t expire, and gives an extra deny, and that was GSCs best relic already. I will be taking this so often that I might even model a barbed psychic crown around my lead Neurothropes head. Well, maybe not based on how quickly GW retires relics in each edition, even then I’m still considering it.
OOE. Thanks to adaptation. S8 OOE is amazing. He’s now wounding Knights on 2+ with Claws and marines on 2+ with Talons. Rhino sized vehicles on 3+ with Talons too. Flat 4 damage has obvious application vs vehicles but also helps put multi wound Iron Hand things like Cents and Aggressors and in the dirt for good. And AP4 means they don’t even get that niggly 6+ anymore.
I’ll post again later with the things I think are a bit of a bill, I think there’s a bit of theory hype for some stuff that might fall a little flat in practice.
1 Lictor is autoinclude in any melee Tyr list (even more with GSC allied). 34 points and a 8" rerolling charge without overwatch is just PERFECT for any melee based list (and in GSC it's practically unmatched since it's effectively makes your acolyte bombs hit HARD)
I’d honestly take 2 or 3, multiple turns worth of no OW is good and even if they can’t ds beyond turn 4 it still means they have to clean all 3 off the table to deny you doing it further, and as individual 34 pt units it just seems like it would tie up more resources than it costs. And they have a lot of application out of that. Definitely great with GSC allies too.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’d honestly take 2 or 3, multiple turns worth of no OW is good and even if they can’t ds beyond turn 4 it still means they have to clean all 3 off the table to deny you doing it further, and as individual 34 pt units it just seems like it would tie up more resources than it costs. And they have a lot of application out of that. Definitely great with GSC allies too.
Not really needed, especially when GSC also has Relic + Psychic Power to deny Overwatch. Hit HARD on turn 2 turning off multiple OWs and keep them in melee (if they manage to survive somehow) and you've greatly increased your chances of victory. Multiple lictors kinda defeat this strategy because at this point you're not getting much value off the cost (since it's always one lictor that does this but you're spending multiple 34 points) and unless shot on the deepstrike you're almost sure to make use of the combo
My GSC is already maxed out on relics (Crouchling, Vial, Kelermorph/Sanctus gun), plus I find the target I want to Hypnosis is often not the one I want to deny Overwatch from anyway. Also, assaulting after turn 2 is very big as well, trying to crash the party with everyone at once often isn’t worth. I’ll be waiting for BattleScribe updates before restructuring my Nids but I see low likelihood of me running less than 2 Lictors.
Lictors. These things were already better Rippers some games. Their new stratagem is amazing. Very low investment to deal with hostile overwatch (something that has been growing increasingly scary). Might not sound like much on paper, but when it’s 33 pts to save you like 10 Genestealers or more, this starts looking a lot better. And in match ups where that’s not relevant, just save the CP and use them as Rippers, or a targeted scalpel to help out on offense with a few more dice. These are very strong now. And the custom Hive Fleets actually have a purpose here. Lictors never really got much from our main Hive Fleets, they already deploy where they need to be and reroll charges so Kraken and Behemoth do very little for them, most of them are pretty much wasted in Lictors. But a custom Hive Fleet Vanguard of 3 of them, I’m sure there’s some more utility you can squeeze off them. At a cursory glance, -1 LD bubble helps a Mental Onslaught Patriarch ally (STILL zone of the most powerful spells in the game), and leading the detachment with a Neurothrope rerolling all casts can only be good. But I’m sure you could find better. Point is it’s another way it got better.
OOE. Thanks to adaptation. S8 OOE is amazing. He’s now wounding Knights on 2+ with Claws and marines on 2+ with Talons. Rhino sized vehicles on 3+ with Talons too. Flat 4 damage has obvious application vs vehicles but also helps put multi wound Iron Hand things like Cents and Aggressors and in the dirt for good. And AP4 means they don’t even get that niggly 6+ anymore.
I'm liking this, but sadly I believe this should have been a regular stat with ALL Carnifex units and not a adaptation. Here's to hoping for the NEXT codex...Sadly these guys were one of THE MOST feared models in all of 40K. They need to be respected once again.
First i hink using Progeny of the hive to get another (2 total) Adaptive Physiology is a must pick.
Lictor with Suprise Ambush T1 to tie up units. No overwatch especially against Tau. Charge him in, then send in the genestealers. Use kraken synaptic lure to reroll charge from deespstrike if needed, with a +1 to charge, so an 8, (just under 60% chance to get it off). To bad cant stack with Adrenal glands for a lovely 7. GW really doesnt want Charging out of DS to be so fast. Dont forget the -1 to shooting, so things like tau overwatch on 5's becomes 6s.
Use Hunters Drive. Have a Flyrant pick off a Single MODEL for the intended Charge target. Pop this strat. now you can roll 3d6 drop the lowest (twice). Odds of getting 3d6 drop the lowest the average of 8.5 with 68% chance. Rerolls
If they manage to fall back dont forget Savage Distraction for another -1 to hit. So they could be -2 to hit for anything with Venom/Malnthrope shroud or Fex spores or the lictor himself.
Arachnacyte Gland on a Melee Fex or Broodlord to support GS could be good.
Stacking Sything Talon AP to -2 for Hormagaunts and maybe even genestealers, but then they are not as fast.
Possibly taking the HF Reroll Advance with another trait of flavor to get almost as fast as kraken. Combine with 6" pile in and you have hormie/GS hybrid. Other options for Hive Fleet adapations that stand out are buffed Sything talons AP, or 2+ Warriors.
Warriors at a 2+ Armor save with Malanthrope -1 ( possibly -2 see above). Then Unyielding chitin for reduced damage. Park these guys in the middle of the board and hold the line. To bad it doesnt work for melee.
Hive Instinct can be good if you get a Broodlord, Swarmy or Prime in combat, use that to extend charge range of unit of GS if needed.
Aggressive Adaptation on Swarmlord or OOE or even GS/Gants for increase AP is always good, though that unit just became target priorty. Could be a good wait to bait opponent into focusing that unit down if you need another one to survive or not draw fire.
The Resonance Barb Relic seems to be a must take for having the ability to use any power needed. Finally pychic dominance is possible. Possibly casting up to 4 powers a turn when combo with power of the hive mind. Potentially a catalyst, onslaught, horror and smite, or just 4 smites. Synaptic channel to just cast whatever power you want.
Unsure if rules allow placement off the new Adaptations on named characters, if so buffing Swarmy and OOE seems obvious.
Exorcine Kronos with Symbiostorm & Symbtioic Devastation. +1 to hit reroll 1s, and can still move and shoot twice. Then with shoot again stratagem essentially making it like having 4x shots. I see 3 of these being a staple . Too bad they dont have monsterous brood.
Using it on hive guard can be good as well, gettin gan extra hit on the 6s, but I think the exocrine is probably the better option.
Stacking Kronos soul hunger with new pysker Pyschic Fissiure to get 2d3 mortal wounds on a failed save. Dont forget deepest shadow to force the test on a single dice and you shadow in the warp.
Lictor with Suprise Ambush T1 to tie up units. No overwatch especially against Tau. Charge him in, then send in the genestealers. Use kraken synaptic lure to reroll charge from deespstrike if needed, with a +1 to charge, so an 8, (just under 60% chance to get it off). To bad cant stack with Adrenal glands for a lovely 7. GW really doesnt want Charging out of DS to be so fast. Dont forget the -1 to shooting, so things like tau overwatch on 5's becomes 6s.
You can't deepstrike the Lictor turn 1. And he already re-rolls charges. And -1 to hit doesn't turn Tau overwatch into 6's the same way +1 to hit doesn't turn overwatch into 4's, their Sept rule is a static 5.
EDIT: there's a TON more mistakes in your post. I know it's an exciting time, but have a re-read through the rules a bit man. A big word dump like that which hasn't been thought through properly isn't helping anybody.
Lictor with Suprise Ambush T1 to tie up units. No overwatch especially against Tau. Charge him in, then send in the genestealers. Use kraken synaptic lure to reroll charge from deespstrike if needed, with a +1 to charge, so an 8, (just under 60% chance to get it off). To bad cant stack with Adrenal glands for a lovely 7. GW really doesnt want Charging out of DS to be so fast. Dont forget the -1 to shooting, so things like tau overwatch on 5's becomes 6s. Edit: Doesn't apply since it can't be overwatched anyway.
You can't deepstrike the Lictor turn 1. And he already re-rolls charges. And -1 to hit doesn't turn Tau overwatch into 6's the same way +1 to hit doesn't turn overwatch into 4's, their Sept rule is a static 5.
EDIT: there's a TON more mistakes in your post. I know it's an exciting time, but have a re-read through the rules a bit man. A big word dump like that which hasn't been thought through properly isn't helping anybody.
You can hide him on board T1 or Deepstrike him in your deployment zone. How does he already reroll charges? He gets that from the Kraken Synaptic Lure. And +1 to charge from the surprise. The lictor rule states you must subtract 1 on to hit rolls that target that unit. Since it doesn't specify a phase (like shooting) then it still applies. Though you are correct in that Tau overrides this. Nevertheless it doesnt matter since you ignoring overwatch anyway.
I was tinkering around the new gorgon psy power, which is extremely interesting because it affects all friendly models and not only Gorgon models, and was looking for the best psyker to deliver it to our frontline.
The obvious answer is a flyrant (but a broodlord works too), and while trying to make a useful gorgon flyrant, i thought about the following combination:
Such a beatstick has 5 attacks at S8 (rerollable for a CP) AP -4
Damage as follows :
4 on a 2-3-4
5 on 5
10 on 6
Plus a tail at S7 AP-2 damage D3 (+1 on 5 and 6)
Probably just something for fun, but this guy delivers more than 20 damage on average rolls against a T8 3+ target (without fighting again, in that case it downs a Stompa). With just a little softening from other sources, he can solo a knight.
Except for a few things like Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Psychic Fissure, Progeny of the Hive it's all pretty meh. But maybe in combination with the points drops it could help us not been one of the bottom tier armys.
Astmeister wrote: Lictors has reroll charge as an built-in special rule. Also overwatch is always unmodified.
Thats only on the turn they arrive, so unless your are able to positions appropriately T1 or wait until DS for T2 its not going to apply. Besides, the point for the Kraken power is to grant reroll charges to the follow up units like the Broodlord or Genestealers after the lictor has already made it in.
Except for a few things like Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Psychic Fissure, Progeny of the Hive it's all pretty meh. But maybe in combination with the points drops it could help us not been one of the bottom tier armys.
Yeah. Ive been messing with the custom hive fleets pairing but not sure if anything is better than Kraken or Kronos, especially since you will lose those specific stratagems. I wish we could take more than 2 Physiological Adaptations though.
Best pairings I see are:
Feeding Frenzy and Hypermetabolic Acceleration on Genestealers to get 6" pile in and reroll advance.
Can use Shrewd Predators Strat to consolidate in any direction and combo with Adrenal Webs physiological move in 2d6" can be a good way for some sneaky movement after a fight. Also using UNnatural reaction to allow a unit of GS to heroically intervene could catch some people off guard.
Accelerated digestion to heal up Swarmy OOE (until the FAQ that to non named characters) and then put on a Melee Fex with Dermic Symbios for 5++ Invul. Uue Jromagunder wit Dynamic Camo, mybe metamorphic regrowth to help heal as well.
Hive Fleet Adaptations of Biometalic Syches for +1 AP on scything Talons for (homries, GS, trygons, carnifexes, even HT) WIth Pack hunters for another +1 AP for swarm units like Hormies and GS. Then for hormies can use Feral Instincts for another +1, so thats +3 AP on 30 hormies rerolling 1's to hit and wound with 20+ models. Genestealers can get +2 AP with reroll 1s on the sycthing Talons. Not sure if the mathhammer on a flat 2 is better than the possible Rend. Having +2 AP on things like Trygons, Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants etc.. (assuming it applies to monsterous) would also be helpful Only problem, go to get in close.
Except for a few things like Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Psychic Fissure, Progeny of the Hive it's all pretty meh. But maybe in combination with the points drops it could help us not been one of the bottom tier armys.
The catch is every other army also got points drops. For me, I'm going to do the following:
Kronos Batallion - Hive Guard (ignore ap -1, -2), exocrine, neuorthrope with Resonance Barb
Kraken Batallion - Genestealer sling (2 stealer squads, 1 hormie blob) no real changes
After the skeleton of my list is together I can manage to fit in around 100-200 more points. Now it's just about debating what to take to fill it out.
Maybe a Lictor to help charges? Maybe a tyrannofex?
Love the maleceptor and toxicrene strats but the units still don't pull their weight.
Hey ladies and Gents, I've come into recent ownership of some secondhand nids from a roomy moving out and thought it might be fun to put them to good use as the true swarm army I've only ever dreamed of.
The models so far consist of 1 Hive Tyrant, 1 Trygon, 3 Tyranid Warriors and 40 Hormagaunts. I've got a 1000 point list written up taht I will use as the base for a 2000 point list later down the road. I'd like to add 1 Carnifex, 1 Tyranid Prime, 2 more Tyranid Warriors (unit of 5 now) 3 Tyrant Guard and 20 additional Hormagaunts to make two units of 30 to fill a battalion. I'm heavily influenced here by Stormship Troopers so a swarm of endless claws and teeth are what I'm going for with only a couple larger ranged bugs, Exocrines in this case. I'm going with Kraken for now since it grants me the mobility I'll need to get into combat as well as the fallback (forwards) and charge rules I'd like to use to have my swarms roll over my enemies front lines and charge the back lines a round later. In theory that's how it'll work at least.
I have a couple questions about loadout on the Tyranid warriors and Carnifex in particular.
First up on the warriors, rending claws and boneswords are the same cost. The former has a higher potential AP but requires some good rolling (which can be helped by the Tyranid Primes' aura) whereas the latter has a flat decent AP of -2 and comes with an extra attack. It doesn't seem to have a clear winner in either case here and I'm just wondering is there's something I missed that can help me narrow the choice?
Next up is the Cranifex. I like the idea of the crushing claws to give me some real vehicle and monster crumping power but... that -1 to hit with a monster that already has WS4 is just painful. For less points I jut threw on tusks with dual monstrous scything talons and a wrecking ball tail and he has more attacks that although weaker individually will hit much more reliably. This seems like the better option but again is there anything I'm missing that actually makes the claws a more viable pick?
Sorry for the wall of text but I greatly appreciate any help/advice you guys have here. I'm excited to get this force up and running and just want to make sure I don't accidentally kneecap myself before I get started.
Lictor with Suprise Ambush T1 to tie up units. No overwatch especially against Tau. Charge him in, then send in the genestealers. Use kraken synaptic lure to reroll charge from deespstrike if needed, with a +1 to charge, so an 8, (just under 60% chance to get it off). To bad cant stack with Adrenal glands for a lovely 7. GW really doesnt want Charging out of DS to be so fast. Dont forget the -1 to shooting, so things like tau overwatch on 5's becomes 6s. Edit: Doesn't apply since it can't be overwatched anyway.
You can't deepstrike the Lictor turn 1. And he already re-rolls charges. And -1 to hit doesn't turn Tau overwatch into 6's the same way +1 to hit doesn't turn overwatch into 4's, their Sept rule is a static 5.
EDIT: there's a TON more mistakes in your post. I know it's an exciting time, but have a re-read through the rules a bit man. A big word dump like that which hasn't been thought through properly isn't helping anybody.
You can hide him on board T1 or Deepstrike him in your deployment zone. How does he already reroll charges? He gets that from the Kraken Synaptic Lure. And +1 to charge from the surprise. The lictor rule states you must subtract 1 on to hit rolls that target that unit. Since it doesn't specify a phase (like shooting) then it still applies. Though you are correct in that Tau overrides this. Nevertheless it doesnt matter since you ignoring overwatch anyway.
You can’t deepstrike into your own DZ turn 1 anymore. And even if you could, you’re basically guaranteed to have the Gants there to eat any Overwatch, and there’s no way they could have an Overwatch castle in your side of the field turn 1 anyway, so that would be thoroughly useless. I can’t think of a single situation where a Lictor can deploy and still be able to whiff a relevant amount of Overwatch for your army turn 1. You could use all the movement strats on them but then your Genestealers won’t be making that charge that turn anyway, you’ll just be throwing away a Lictor and a turn worth of opportunity and resources. On top of that, you're 100% wrong, -1 to hit does not affect Overwatch, though it's not relevant in the first place as per the entire purpose of the Lictor.
If i see that my opponent has ravenguard centurions, i would always deploy 1 lictor on the field, out of sight, so that after the firestorm i can come out, negate the overwatch and let everyone else charge them for free.
I don't have the reroll on the charge, but the lictor moves 12", i don't really need it, just need any kind of terrain element near the centurions to trigger the stratagem, or just charge out of LoS without using CPs.
Also, the -1 hit from lictors does not work on overwatch. No modifier is applied to overwatch shooting except for the ones who specifically mention overwatch.
Spoletta wrote: Also, the -1 hit from lictors does not work on overwatch. No modifier is applied to overwatch shooting except for the ones who specifically mention overwatch.
Rather you still hit on 6's but modifiers do affect roll. So lictor makes overcharging plasma more dangerous.
Yes, don't conflate the whole "hit on 6's irregardless of modifiers" as Modifiers do not apply.
Plasma overheats more often, Necron tesla doesn't explode, and T'au cept drones overwatch will miss due to modifiers just fine.
It just means the 6's will hit no matter how many modifiers you have. -3 to hit will still hit on 6's, but the total on the roll may well be 1 or 2 after the modifiers.
They need to change it to state natural rolls of a 6, but they didn't really start using that phrasing till later.
Spearhead - Custom: Advance+shoot w/out penalty, reroll 1 hit if in synapse.
Then play a Hive Tyrant with Heavy Venom Cannon and Deathspitters, the relic of +8" range and rerolls
Add 3 Carnifex, Heavy Venom Cannons, Deathspitters, -1 to hit, +1 Ballistic
What you get is a super mobile gunline, that can deploy way back out of range of the enemy, and on their turn can move 8" (9 for the tyrant) + advance + shoot with no penalties on a 3+ and a single reroll per monster. Suddenly Heavy Venom Cannons on the carnifexes become 48" range, Deathspitters become 36" range and the hive tyrant can shoot its cannon up to 60" away. You can literally kite enemies by moving backwards and outranging them and you can reach far edges of the table very fast.
They basically get the benefit of Kronos (1 reroll to hit) but instead of having to stay still, they can move super fast all over the place. The Hive tyrant also has 2 reroll hits and 1 reroll wound, and their weapons are all flat 3 damage.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Hey ladies and Gents, I've come into recent ownership of some secondhand nids from a roomy moving out and thought it might be fun to put them to good use as the true swarm army I've only ever dreamed of.
The models so far consist of 1 Hive Tyrant, 1 Trygon, 3 Tyranid Warriors and 40 Hormagaunts. I've got a 1000 point list written up taht I will use as the base for a 2000 point list later down the road. I'd like to add 1 Carnifex, 1 Tyranid Prime, 2 more Tyranid Warriors (unit of 5 now) 3 Tyrant Guard and 20 additional Hormagaunts to make two units of 30 to fill a battalion. I'm heavily influenced here by Stormship Troopers so a swarm of endless claws and teeth are what I'm going for with only a couple larger ranged bugs, Exocrines in this case. I'm going with Kraken for now since it grants me the mobility I'll need to get into combat as well as the fallback (forwards) and charge rules I'd like to use to have my swarms roll over my enemies front lines and charge the back lines a round later. In theory that's how it'll work at least.
I have a couple questions about loadout on the Tyranid warriors and Carnifex in particular.
First up on the warriors, rending claws and boneswords are the same cost. The former has a higher potential AP but requires some good rolling (which can be helped by the Tyranid Primes' aura) whereas the latter has a flat decent AP of -2 and comes with an extra attack. It doesn't seem to have a clear winner in either case here and I'm just wondering is there's something I missed that can help me narrow the choice?
Next up is the Cranifex. I like the idea of the crushing claws to give me some real vehicle and monster crumping power but... that -1 to hit with a monster that already has WS4 is just painful. For less points I jut threw on tusks with dual monstrous scything talons and a wrecking ball tail and he has more attacks that although weaker individually will hit much more reliably. This seems like the better option but again is there anything I'm missing that actually makes the claws a more viable pick?
Sorry for the wall of text but I greatly appreciate any help/advice you guys have here. I'm excited to get this force up and running and just want to make sure I don't accidentally kneecap myself before I get started.
Well Crushing claws are a bit of a pain. Maybe take a look at Acid maws for anti vehicle CC? Currently I'd say twin bones, but that can change at any time... Most of my Warriors run Claws, but that was the best choice "back in the day"
Why are people giving Resonance Barb to a Neurothrope? He only knows 1 hive mind power plus smite, and he can already cast both. So you'd be wasting the part of Resonance Barb that allows you to cast an extra power unless you spend 1 CP every turn to gain powers from your other psykers.
A better use of Resonance Barb would be on a Broodlord. He can cast both his powers without needing a CP and with his faster movement he can more easily get in range of targets to use some of our more offensive powers.
Looking at this for the new Chapter Approved points adjustments with Psychic Awakening buffs.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I don’t have the book, but doesn’t Resonance Barb give them another power?
Per goonhammer yes it does.
"This model can manifest an additional power per turn and deny an extra power. Also, when you take a psychic test, add 1 to the total. This is straight fire. Windmill slam this thing onto your Hive Tyrants for triple easy-casting action."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Kraken Battallion - 5 CP - 3d6 take highest advance,
Dynas wrote: Looking at this for the new Chapter Approved points adjustments with Psychic Awakening buffs.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I don’t have the book, but doesn’t Resonance Barb give them another power?
Per goonhammer yes it does.
"This model can manifest an additional power per turn and deny an extra power. Also, when you take a psychic test, add 1 to the total. This is straight fire. Windmill slam this thing onto your Hive Tyrants for triple easy-casting action."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Kraken Battallion - 5 CP - 3d6 take highest advance,
Dynas wrote: Looking at this for the new Chapter Approved points adjustments with Psychic Awakening buffs.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I don’t have the book, but doesn’t Resonance Barb give them another power?
Per goonhammer yes it does.
"This model can manifest an additional power per turn and deny an extra power. Also, when you take a psychic test, add 1 to the total. This is straight fire. Windmill slam this thing onto your Hive Tyrants for triple easy-casting action."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Kraken Battallion - 5 CP - 3d6 take highest advance,
I think it is still worth it on a neuro, because reroll 1 and add 1 combined means you can very reliably cast a spell you DO NOT want to miss. For example that onslaught... man when you fail to cast onslaught it can cost you so much sometimes...
Thank you pinecone77 for your response. I think I'll do the bone swords on the warriors as they seem like a fine option. Having my AP tied to how many 5/6 I can roll just doesn't seem as reliable as a flat -2 with one extra attack.
As for the carnifex I did look at the acid maw, my issue with it is that it has a better AP, -5 is crazy good but many high value targets have an invuln save anyways so it may often go to waste. It also has a damage of D3 vs the flat 3 dmg my bonus scything talon attack would give me from tusks. An attack that will do less damage than my normal attacks 66% of the time feels pretty unappealing sadly.
The crushing claws having -1 to hit is fine with me but man WS4 on a carnifex just seems so odd, never knew they had such a hard time hitting things in melee. If they were WS3 I'd almost consider the claws an auto-include.
Thanks for your advice again though pinecone, I appreciate it.
I’ve seen the goon article. Can someone who seen the book confirm? Because a different write up described the Resonance Barb as letting you select another power as well as casting it, and it’s possible the Goonhammer guys wrote it wrong
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Thank you pinecone77 for your response. I think I'll do the bone swords on the warriors as they seem like a fine option. Having my AP tied to how many 5/6 I can roll just doesn't seem as reliable as a flat -2 with one extra attack.
As for the carnifex I did look at the acid maw, my issue with it is that it has a better AP, -5 is crazy good but many high value targets have an invuln save anyways so it may often go to waste. It also has a damage of D3 vs the flat 3 dmg my bonus scything talon attack would give me from tusks. An attack that will do less damage than my normal attacks 66% of the time feels pretty unappealing sadly.
The crushing claws having -1 to hit is fine with me but man WS4 on a carnifex just seems so odd, never knew they had such a hard time hitting things in melee. If they were WS3 I'd almost consider the claws an auto-include.
Thanks for your advice again though pinecone, I appreciate it.
Boneswords currently outperform Rending Claws against everything except T8/3+ with no invuln- where the Rending Claws have a slight advantage, and neither are good enough for that to be a situation you want to be in. So the Boneswords are just better, but this is a thing that could change with points drops or edition changes, so I highly recommend magnetizing.
The real value of Acid Maw IMO isn't with a melee 'Fex, it's with a ranged one. A Carnifex with Spore Cysts, Acid Maw, and quad Devourers throws out a bunch of chaff-clearing fire, still has a useful weapon for melee, and is tough (for its cost) to put down.
Crushing Claws hitting at -1 is annoying; I always take Old One Eye alongside melee Carnifexes to boost them back to hitting on 4s. Remember also that Carnifexes get +1 to hit on the charge, so combined with OOE's aura gets you to 3+ on the claws, and if you're Kraken you can continuously fall back and charge each turn as needed. Those claws can do some serious damage.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah Acid Maw is what you take when your hands are full of all these guns
Well no, you still give them enhanced senses for a 3+ BS
Acid maw is a good weapon on a bad platform. What are you going to maw with your 4 attacks, WS 4+ and str 6? Better to give +1 to hit on 24 shots.
OOE should give +1 to hit flat to all the carnifexes, not only in the fight phase. Would love my fexes with BS 2+.
You hit on 3's in the first round of melle (which will be the only round of melle most of the time as they are going to fall back and shoot you). It's a simple trade off. You are trading 4 str 6 hits in a shooting phase for actually capable melle attacks. IMO it is an easy trade off to make. It's even easier to make it now with a custom hive fleet that allows you to advance and shoot without penalty. Plus if you have OOE its great to have melle on your shooty fexen.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah Acid Maw is what you take when your hands are full of all these guns
Well no, you still give them enhanced senses for a 3+ BS
Acid maw is a good weapon on a bad platform. What are you going to maw with your 4 attacks, WS 4+ and str 6? Better to give +1 to hit on 24 shots.
OOE should give +1 to hit flat to all the carnifexes, not only in the fight phase. Would love my fexes with BS 2+.
I hate this rigid view of thinking where there’s one thing ‘that you just do’. It’s not even right. The meta has changed so much right now, that Dakka alone isn’t reliable. Senses let’s you do 3.5 wounds to Marines instead of 2.5, it’s a bloody miniscule. 5 attacks on the charge including Bone Mace, all with good AP and doing multidamage, denying saves, all hitting on 2’s if OOE is nearby, and a free MW roll per charge on a Carnifex actually puts the damage on. It also stops them getting tarpit which is a big problem for an 18” range shooty unit. And you still get 24 shots hitting on 4’s right next to it which is sill a bunch of Dakka. Acid Maw is better than its ever been now and I’d say it’s actually probably the ideal way to do that if anyone is out here trying to make dakkafexes work still.
This is what im gonna build up to. I mostly just need the warriors and one nuerothrope.
Im tempted to take a malanthrope in the leviathan detachment, but I don't know if he'll make much of a difference with the kraken stuff hopefully tying up the opponent for a turn.
Adaptive Physiology wrote:Synaptic Enhancement Adaptations to this organism’s cerebral architecture have enhanced its connection to the Hive Mind. Through this towering and deadly creature, the horrific control and influence of the Tyranid race is spread ever further. This model gains the Shadow in the Warp and Synapse abilities, and gains the SYNAPSE keyword.
So I've been looking at new meme builds with PA3.
Behemoth Hive Tyrant with Scythes of Tyran, toxin sacks, monstrous hunter WLT, then use Progeny of the Hive to give it murderous size.
Have it cast Unstoppable Hunger on itself
5 S8 ap-4 dam4 attacks, with +1 to wound, meaning on wound rolls of 5+ they are damage 6. Seems neat to me.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah Acid Maw is what you take when your hands are full of all these guns
Well no, you still give them enhanced senses for a 3+ BS
Acid maw is a good weapon on a bad platform. What are you going to maw with your 4 attacks, WS 4+ and str 6? Better to give +1 to hit on 24 shots.
OOE should give +1 to hit flat to all the carnifexes, not only in the fight phase. Would love my fexes with BS 2+.
I hate this rigid view of thinking where there’s one thing ‘that you just do’. It’s not even right. The meta has changed so much right now, that Dakka alone isn’t reliable. Senses let’s you do 3.5 wounds to Marines instead of 2.5, it’s a bloody miniscule. 5 attacks on the charge including Bone Mace, all with good AP and doing multidamage, denying saves, all hitting on 2’s if OOE is nearby, and a free MW roll per charge on a Carnifex actually puts the damage on. It also stops them getting tarpit which is a big problem for an 18” range shooty unit. And you still get 24 shots hitting on 4’s right next to it which is sill a bunch of Dakka. Acid Maw is better than its ever been now and I’d say it’s actually probably the ideal way to do that if anyone is out here trying to make dakkafexes work still.
I totally agree - I think even before these new rules. ESP if running OOE. It's also even better now because this unit needs to advance to shoot turn 1. Now we have an army trait that allows advance and shoot with no penalty - so you were hitting on 4's before turn 1 anyways most the time with ES. Now you are hitting on 4's without ES. Also a big shout out to HVC and 2x DS fex build which I consider a very viable build too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isn't it dumb that these psychic powers which are so crucial to making nids viable in any way are tied to specific hive fleets? Giant missed opportunity.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Yeah Acid Maw is what you take when your hands are full of all these guns
Well no, you still give them enhanced senses for a 3+ BS
Acid maw is a good weapon on a bad platform. What are you going to maw with your 4 attacks, WS 4+ and str 6? Better to give +1 to hit on 24 shots.
OOE should give +1 to hit flat to all the carnifexes, not only in the fight phase. Would love my fexes with BS 2+.
I hate this rigid view of thinking where there’s one thing ‘that you just do’. It’s not even right. The meta has changed so much right now, that Dakka alone isn’t reliable. Senses let’s you do 3.5 wounds to Marines instead of 2.5, it’s a bloody miniscule. 5 attacks on the charge including Bone Mace, all with good AP and doing multidamage, denying saves, all hitting on 2’s if OOE is nearby, and a free MW roll per charge on a Carnifex actually puts the damage on. It also stops them getting tarpit which is a big problem for an 18” range shooty unit. And you still get 24 shots hitting on 4’s right next to it which is sill a bunch of Dakka. Acid Maw is better than its ever been now and I’d say it’s actually probably the ideal way to do that if anyone is out here trying to make dakkafexes work still.
I totally agree - I think even before these new rules. ESP if running OOE. It's also even better now because this unit needs to advance to shoot turn 1. Now we have an army trait that allows advance and shoot with no penalty - so you were hitting on 4's before turn 1 anyways most the time with ES. Now you are hitting on 4's without ES. Also a big shout out to HVC and 2x DS fex build which I consider a very viable build too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isn't it dumb that these psychic powers which are so crucial to making nids viable in any way are tied to specific hive fleets? Giant missed opportunity.
I agree "Gunfexen" are and have been a credible build. Looking at Baal might be that Kronos gets more Tourney play with the improves to shooting and Hive Minding...
According to it the flleet trait which gives you advance and shoot without penalty is monsters only. Can anyone with the book confirm? I would hate for that to be true,
According to it the flleet trait which gives you advance and shoot without penalty is monsters only. Can anyone with the book confirm? I would hate for that to be true,
I confirm. We really are not treated very well are we... no Tyranid warriors advancing and shooting with no penalty with deathspitters and venom canons
Yeah, the more i read the differences between the real stuff and what was initially spoiled and more i find that they were inflated a bit.
They are still nice enough to bring us on par with other factions, but not what can allow us to compete with marines unfortunately.
Which after all it may be a good thing, it means that marines were an outlier (hopefully in line for a nerf) and the power creep is not THAT pronounced.
So with marine heavy meta being steathy I am looking to tailor list to either ignore cover or move within 12" to shoot.
The second issue is the AP so getting Invul saves and FnP saves seems to be the best.
Spamming units with these combos seems to be a good chance.
That makes me want to take Leviathan for 6+ FnP.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
For invul units
Flyrant, swarmlord, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, neurothropes (smite spam). Devilgant bomb dropping within 9" and shooting twice will kill 17.5 marines on average. Since within 12" they lose stealthy.
Malanthrope for additional defense seems like a must.
Catalyst spell is a must.
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
Eihnlazer wrote: This is what im gonna build up to. I mostly just need the warriors and one nuerothrope.
Im tempted to take a malanthrope in the leviathan detachment, but I don't know if he'll make much of a difference with the kraken stuff hopefully tying up the opponent for a turn.
I think the idea of the Warrior army has been overhyped a bit.
Yeah, the new Adaptations and Stratagems are great for Warriors, but they're only for one squad at a time. With three squads, at best you get Ignore AP-1/-2 on two of them (at the cost of both Physiologies), and then use the Stratagem on the third. Throw in a single cast of Catalyst and you can further boost the resilience of one unit, but at this point you are basically all in on the Warriors. The more units you take the less resilient they become overall.
I think one unit of 9 will be the most cost-effective. Spend one Physiology on them and pop the stratagem as needed, and give them a cast of Catalyst as available.
So I remember back in the day 3 flyrants were the default must. Is that not the case anymore? I never see anyone talk about it or really on many lists.
Was excited on the new changes. Really want to run 3 flyrants with 5 Zoan and 1 Neuro (I only have 6) or 3 flyrants and 6 Carnifexes. Not sure how great it'll do though.
They are a bit expensive glass cannons, and there hasn't really been much to pair that with till now, making them obvious first targets.
However, multiple Exocrines paired with Flyrants and maybe Toxicrenes and some other scary melee stuff like OOE etc, might force some difficult decisions on your opponent's side of the table allowing you to get away with more.
Dynas wrote: So with marine heavy meta being steathy I am looking to tailor list to either ignore cover or move within 12" to shoot.
The second issue is the AP so getting Invul saves and FnP saves seems to be the best.
Spamming units with these combos seems to be a good chance.
That makes me want to take Leviathan for 6+ FnP.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
For invul units
Flyrant, swarmlord, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, neurothropes (smite spam). Devilgant bomb dropping within 9" and shooting twice will kill 17.5 marines on average. Since within 12" they lose stealthy.
Malanthrope for additional defense seems like a must.
Catalyst spell is a must.
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
The Jormungandr WL trait passes out Ignore cover to everything within 3".
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
Well, for ignore cover we have Thornbacks (might be interesting with the Stranglethorn + Deathspitters loadout), Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. The Toxicrene's toxic spores ranged weapon also technically ignores cover, but with AP - it doesn't matter too much and the range is such it probably is going to be charging shortly anyway.
For invuls, you can add the Malceptor and Dimachaeron to the list, though the latter only gets it conditionally while the former has it always active.
Everything that starts with "We know that swarmy + 3 GS units work and that is obvious" already means that you are not even trying.
That list used to work before SM could remove one unit and slow the other 2.
We need something different, the GS kraken bomb is a one trick pony which costs a lot of points (half your list!) and doesn't work in the present meta.
If i didn't want to have a shot at taking SM out, i had a lot more build options than just that one, which are perfectly fine against chaos, aeldari, orks or whatever, so i no longer understand this attachment to stealers. Hive guards are always nice though, now they are even cheaper.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
He might have meant that Hive Guard don't actually ignore cover, just the bonus to saves from cover.
If a unit gets extra bonus's from cover that do not include save bonus's they still get them (i.e. eldar rangers and ravenguard's -1 to hit while in cover).
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
I meant other than that unit. Granted my wording was rather poor. Apologies for the confusion.
Dynas wrote: So with marine heavy meta being steathy I am looking to tailor list to either ignore cover or move within 12" to shoot.
The second issue is the AP so getting Invul saves and FnP saves seems to be the best.
Spamming units with these combos seems to be a good chance.
That makes me want to take Leviathan for 6+ FnP.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
For invul units
Flyrant, swarmlord, Genestealers, Zoanthrope, neurothropes (smite spam). Devilgant bomb dropping within 9" and shooting twice will kill 17.5 marines on average. Since within 12" they lose stealthy.
Malanthrope for additional defense seems like a must.
Catalyst spell is a must.
What other units/strats have access to either Ignore cover, an Invul Save, or FnP save.
The Jormungandr WL trait passes out Ignore cover to everything within 3".
Hmm. Could be good then with taking a Solid Warrior Fire base with a Prime as Jorm and a malanthrope to help. Catalyst on them if needed. Im still worried about the AP Hailstorm of marines though. the new Strat Unyielding chitin would definitely be a must take each turn for this detachemnt at (least in the early turns). If you take the Warlord trait then your only getting 1 adaptive Physiology. I am thinking Enhanced Resistance over Dynamic Camo since the dynamic camo gives the +1 to cover, but the Enhanced resistance has the ability to reduce 2 AP which would be better.
Hive Guard with ignore LoS (but not cover ) are a maybe.
Im not sure we have anything that ignores cover aside from stuff like Mortal Wounds (spore mines and Meotic Spores)
I'm slightly puzzled by this post, because hive guard do ignore cover.
I meant other than that unit. Granted my wording was rather poor. Apologies for the confusion.
That just leaves me even more confused. Other than what unit?
So is it possible to make a nidzilla list that isn't terrible at the moment?
I've not played as tyranids since... 5th? But I've long been tempted to come back just to make a 'big'uns' list. Not necessarily all have to be Tyrant or Carnifex size, as I quite like hive guard too, but I wouldn't be wanting to use any hordes/swarms (except for the minimum needed to fill out battalions, of course, because you have to these days).
Units I would like to make use of (which turns out are mostly Heavy Support, didn't Carnifexes used to be elites at one point?)
Tyrannofex
Maybe a Trygon if I have a unit I want to bring with it
Toxicrene
Exocrine? (probably be either this or the Tyrannofex rather than both?)
Carnifex
Biovores
Venomthropes?
Zoanthropes (I always used to like these, though I believe these days what I think of as a zoan is actually the Neurothrope?)
So, Neurothrope Hive Guard
Haruspex
Hive Tyrant
...and tbh, I'd rather use Genestealers for troops, -maybe- warriors if they can be outfitted into the 'scarily killy' category, otherwise I'd just fill out minimum troops for CP. Rippers, I would assume?
There's a fair few unit options here, so hopefully something can be cobbled together, I'm just a little at a loss as to what works at the moment and what doesnt!
It's not going to be super uber competitive, but you can nidzila with those models. A kronos detachment with hyve guard, biovores, neurothrope, exocrine and tyrannofex would be a good start.
I would then add a custom fleet with "Monsters advance and shoot without penalties" and put my cfexes and Tyrant there.
Warriors can be quite killy indeed, but you either go with hyve guards or killy warriors, since they require the same strat.
A trygon with murderous size is a huge beatstick, just kind of difficult to put in the same list as the other ones.
Toxicrene and haruspex are good distraction fexes these days, you can plug them in any list and use them to attract fire.
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
I'll still play infantry heavy too with Cult allies because it's still strong in other match ups, but I think Nidzilla is the real star atm.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'm actually a bit curious if Tyrannocyte spam could be made to work, with their coming in under 100 points now. They don't even need to bring anything down with them, just have them act as a big, annoying, floating wall with their huge bases and relatively low cost per wound.
Now admittedly they don't get to drop on the first turn like Drop Pods, but if Infiltrators are as popular as they are around here then I'd think it safe to say they probably wouldn't have many places to land on turn 1 anyway. Also they can actually do stuff after they land. Previously I enjoyed having them run amuck in the opponent's backfield, tying up guns and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Being cheap lets them do that roll at no major loss if the opponent decided to commit resources to their removal.
Am I wrong in thinking that the Acid Spray really just outshines the Fleshborer Hive completely for the Tyrannofex now?
7 auto-hitting S7/AP-1/DD3 shots seems a lot better than 20 S5/AP0/D1 shots. Even with both Scorch Bugs and Pathogenic Slime, they average the same damage against Primaris.
I guess the Fleshborer Hive doesn't degrade since it isn't tied to the user's S, and it looks like it's marginally better against chaff, but the Tyrannofex doesn't seem like a great chaff-clearing platform to begin with.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I honestly think Nidzilla is going to be the most competitive option in this meta.
I'm actually a bit curious if Tyrannocyte spam could be made to work, with their coming in under 100 points now. They don't even need to bring anything down with them, just have them act as a big, annoying, floating wall with their huge bases and relatively low cost per wound.
Now admittedly they don't get to drop on the first turn like Drop Pods, but if Infiltrators are as popular as they are around here then I'd think it safe to say they probably wouldn't have many places to land on turn 1 anyway. Also they can actually do stuff after they land. Previously I enjoyed having them run amuck in the opponent's backfield, tying up guns and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Being cheap lets them do that roll at no major loss if the opponent decided to commit resources to their removal.
Sounds like something the Sporocyst would be better for? Though maybe you're right, though 225 pts for 3 of them is no small investment. They come with the bonus of letting 3 MC's deploy in close range I gues turn 2 I'm not ruling this one out.
catbarf wrote:Am I wrong in thinking that the Acid Spray really just outshines the Fleshborer Hive completely for the Tyrannofex now?
7 auto-hitting S7/AP-1/DD3 shots seems a lot better than 20 S5/AP0/D1 shots. Even with both Scorch Bugs and Pathogenic Slime, they average the same damage against Primaris.
I guess the Fleshborer Hive doesn't degrade since it isn't tied to the user's S, and it looks like it's marginally better against chaff, but the Tyrannofex doesn't seem like a great chaff-clearing platform to begin with.
Thoughts?
It's better not just for damage but utility too. To answer your question, yes. I'd never take the Fleshborer Hive for Scorch Bugs - though Fleshborer Termagants are looking better than ever.
I would then add a custom fleet with "Monsters advance and shoot without penalties" and put my cfexes and Tyrant there.
What are the major losses from using a custom fleet? I know it means no access to the fleet-specific stratagems, but how many of those are helpful in a nidzilla list?
Also, what second fleet trait would you give, along with the advance/shoot trait?
Prey Sight (+1 to hit rolls in melee for monsters) seems like it might be suitable.
Regrowth (everyone with multiple wounds gets +1 wound back at start of your turn) seems like it might be ok, but you might get limited use out of it if your enemy focuses down one monster at a time?
Cranial Channeling (Reroll one psychic test per turn (once per unit? once per turn?)) seems either really good, or just somewhat good, depending on how GWfaqs it.
I'm thinking Regrowth isn't worth it against good opponents, compared to the other options. Prey Sight would be good if I have a lot of monsters heading into melee with lots of attacks (toxicrene, carnifex), and Cranial is good for lots of psykerbugs (neurothrope, Tyrant, zoan). Tough choice.
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Sounds like something the Sporocyst would be better for? Though maybe you're right, though 225 pts for 3 of them is no small investment. They come with the bonus of letting 3 MC's deploy in close range I gues turn 2 I'm not ruling this one out.
I'm not sure. I've generally found the Sporocyst does best on a flank attending to an objective or as an anchor to a gunline (provides duel benefit of synapse extension and minefield). What I'm thinking of is physically using the models to block enemy movement, since they have enormous bases that need to be moved around while also being relatively cheap. Plus, it is harder to outright avoid them given that they can move with fly. Also worth noting, since Tyrannocytes are dedicated transports they are exempt from the "rule of 3", so one could take 4-5 of them and have some drop empty (maybe give those ones a stronger gun) and the rest bring some sort of cargo.
Edit: Looking over chapter approved, I think I might have found something interesting. Gargoyles dropped to 5 points each. On its own that isn't a huge deal, but when you pair their Blinding Venom (-1 to hit if they score an unsaved wound in melee) and the new Membrane adaptation (-1 to hit in melee for fly) they might make for a very effective tarpit.
Gargoyles are great paired up with a lictor who can soak overwatch, give them reroll's to charge, and the new trait yes. Way better than horms (cept that they aren't troops).
Bit light on CP, but you should easily be able to go second, survive a beating as The warriors, sitting in cover will have a 3+/6+++ and ignore -1/-2 AP and have -1 to hit on them from the mananthrope, so I don't see them dying easily. Then just make your opponent cry as he tries to remove 60 gargoyles that charge into him and he has to swing back at them with -2/-3 to hit.
along with 5 denies up front from the tyrants, and the kronos strat from the mines that the biovores are dropping you should shut out the psychic phase as well.
And almost tabled him. However, he warns that he got T1 and the opponent came to him (underestimating his firepower) and he has a good deployment zone. He doesn't think it wouldn't have been that good if a result without both of these conditions.
It seems like an usual IH list (without flyer though) and I'm quite happy the tyranids got the upper hand by outshooting it
They aren't exactly good, but they are cheap fast attack slots if your taking a brigade.
Now the forgeworld spores that are 2 wounds each are quite good if used properly.
I take a unit in my tournament list. Make them kraken and if you get the first turn you get to surprise nuke something, possibly sniping off characters or crippling a vehicle.
They deploy up to 9" away at the beginning of the turn 1. Even with a 3" move, you can advance them 8-9", then metabolic overdrive them another 8-9" into position to blow up on something. They don't care about screens since they have fly and are small.
A unit of 9 does on average 17.5 mortal wounds if they all get in range.
The Broodlord hits in CC and also is as good at casting as a Neurothrope with Resonance Barb on for just a handful of points.
I’d want a Malanthrope on there with triple Exocrine and already paying for Venomthrope, is sawap that around for sure, but maybe not legal where he is.
What hive fleet did he take? Im assuming its all kronos based on the list. Looks like he gave up WLT for 2x ignore ap and assuming he took Resonance Barb on Broodlord.
Boltstorm is just too real out here. No matter how much infantry you take, there's match ups that can shred it. Nidzilla has all the tools needed to work now. Malanthrope + The Horror + Resonance Barb + Dermic Symbiosis is so nice.
Interesting list for sure. I was thinking to build a list in the same general direction (atm painting up my Heirodule). Wouldn't a Custom Hive Fleet be better then Kraken? For example the +1 to hit in CC and Advance+ shoot out perhaps Feeding Frenzy?
Yes he was playing Chronos but didn't explain why he took the broodlord though. He told they the -1 to be wounded stratagem and -1 to be hit together were quite strong
I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
lindsay40k wrote: I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
Kraken Stealers aren't what they used to be anymore...I'd honestly go for Behemoth deepstriking things + Kronos firebase nowadays
lindsay40k wrote: I’m thinking a Kraken Swarmstealers list could benefit from a deployed Lictor or two to OA & prevent overwatch.
Played doubles yesterday, my abshemoth & a friend’s Kraken. Our first turn charge took such heavy OW casualties that we had to use 5CP for the genestealers to get the unit kills we were fishing for
Kraken Stealers are what they used to be anymore...I'd honestly go for Behemoth deepstriking things + Kronos firebase nowadays
Why? I think one unit with swarmy and then the Lictor to soak up the overwatch first is great. WIth the ignore overwatch unit/trick in the lictor it finally makes them viable. Just need to hide out of LoS on deployment incase you don't get first turn. Other thought was to DS them in the tunnels and just use Swarmy in shooting phase to get them in.
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I do agree that the old super custom Nids were a pain, you almost needed character sheets for each figure if you went mad... 
Time will tell....
( four scythes and spores is the basic plan)
