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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
By what measure is that pretty good? Ignoring the heals, Neurothropes are 30 pts cheaper, get 2 casts instead of one, have a bonus to casting, and can't even be targeted making them far more durable even with 5 wounds instead of 9. And that's post nerf Neurothropes. Yeah I just don't see it.

Can't use the stratagem with Neurothropes. That was the entire point of my original post, to have a decent chance (5+ rerollable) at sniping out those pesky SM support Characters. If you're happy with just going for objectives and board control then have at it, but yeah Neurothropes are SUPPOSED to be better than Zoanthropes hence they are an upgrade Character version. Duh!

You didn’t mention the stratagem anywhere in the post I responded to. The stats you listed as good are not really at all.

Regardless the stratagem is a massive gimmick. Trygon + 9 Zoanthropes is a big footprint, you need real space to deploy and it’s not at all difficult to screen that out 18” from the castle especially since we don’t really clear screens by shooting. And say you get in and manage to get it off after like 3 turns of impact or whatever, you nuke the character, what then? Put some mortal wounds on half the vehicles and kill the HQ if you’re lucky? So what? We aren’t killing off those Dreads with or without him, the codex doesn’t have the AT for that and that’s not our gameplan without or without the Iron Father up. We want to rake the board and force fall backs on the dreads, 500 pts of Zoanthropes is still a waste even if it all works imo. And it’s a big if, 5+ with a CP reroll even if your opponent left the drawbridge down. Completely unreliable and not at all viable for anyone playing competitive imo

Neurothropes are meant to be better? I’m not sure how that’s a counter to me saying they are better, because yeah, they are much better.

v0iddrgn wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.

Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.

Good for you, but I don't think I agree with your assessment. Zoanthropes get 3++, SitW, Synapse and 9 wounds minimum, that's pretty good for 120 points and I don't care if you can target them or not. Oh, they also have Fly and their Smite goes 24" instead of 18". Hive Mind powers are not gak either. Again your assess should not be paid any mind.

I mean, all you have to do is screen out the smite so its not the closest unit.

Okay, do it your way. Good luck with that at the tournaments I'm sure you've got this. Please post your results here when your finished.

 Dynas wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Zoanthropes are just too damn expensive at the moment. With a min of 3 models per unit, we're talking about a 120 pt non character psyker in the least. And for 120 pts, this psyker isn't even that amazing. Normal sorcerers have a wider variety of spells to pick + character protection and they cost 90 pts.

Even worse, to even take three units (360) pts + delivery system, wait one turn, then hope and pray on a bunch of 4+ isn't my idea of strategy honestly.

Good for you, but I don't think I agree with your assessment. Zoanthropes get 3++, SitW, Synapse and 9 wounds minimum, that's pretty good for 120 points and I don't care if you can target them or not. Oh, they also have Fly and their Smite goes 24" instead of 18". Hive Mind powers are not gak either. Again your assess should not be paid any mind.

I mean, all you have to do is screen out the smite so its not the closest unit.

The fact that the zoanthropes need to forfeit their turn to even try the stratagem and then fail half of the time is just the nail in the coffin. If I could take zoanthropes in 1+ like I can with lictors, that would be a different story. 3++ doesn't mean gak, you will still die to bolter fire like any other power armor does. Synapse you can get from a million other cheaper sources, and 9 wounds are not a lot for 120 pts that can be targeted.

I would however play a wall of 18 zoanthropes blocking pathing to the rest 1200 pts of my kronos gunline tho in some fluffy games. I would call it "The great wall of the mind."

v0iddrgn wrote:
Okay, do it your way. Good luck with that at the tournaments I'm sure you've got this. Please post your results here when your finished.

Who are you even talking to lol?

v0iddrgn wrote:This: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/57337/play-new-weapon-associated-toys

Just going over highlights:

1. Improved AP: It is a nuisance but most of our units are relying on volume of wounds and to hit modifiers for durability, not good saves. I could see this suppressing Carnifexes a bit, but the T8 monsters should still be fine (especially if they get another price drop in the upcoming chapter approved) and it doesn't really affect the Hive Tyrant or Malceptor.

2. Iron Hands Castle: This is probably going to be a meta problem for awhile, but I think we are better equipped than most to deal with it. The entire thing hinges on denying multi-damage, which basically means switch to high rate of fire, low damage guns (Slimer Maggot Deathspitters, Brainleech Devourers) and mortal wound spam. We have a lot of options for dishing out mortal wounds between our psykers, living battering ram, spore mine weapons, Mawlocs, (hyper)Toxic Miasma, Acid Blood, Implant Attack, shock cannons, Swarmy, and tentaclids.

Also worth keeping in mind, our GSC allies have quite a few tools that can help too.
-> Multiple ways to snipe support characters
-> Overwatch denial (Amulet of the Voidwyrm or Mass Hypnosis).
-> Stratagem denial (A Plan Generations in the Making)

v0iddrgn wrote:So, I was thinking about how to get to those support character the SM's rely so heavily on. Has anyone tried DSing Zoes in to use their Pychic Barrage strat yet? Seems like a viable way to ruin someone's day.

As horrible as it sounds, Malceptors in Tyrannocytes could probably do that trick better with their overload ability. No CP cost and a 2+ to "hit" instead of a 4+ with modifiers.

Hey guys. I'm looking to give 40k another shot, after 2 years of playing 30k only..

I wanna start Nids since they're the most different from all the astsrters I've painted the last years.

I know how I wanna paint the buggers but have absolutely No idea about what to do list and tactics wise. Can some of you Experts give me a few hints to what units are great, medium and useless and maybe a few tips and tricks for tactics. Not asking for a full list build for me, just a few highlights of the army.

40 or so Termagants!
great for filling out battalions, tarpitting, scoring, and doing all the legwork for your army


Neurothropes
Smite + any one power off an excellent table, both in the same turn. I take all 3 and still have spells I wish I could cast from our table. Also the best way of filling out the HQ slots on those cheap battalions

Old One Eye
absolute beast of a model whether you take other Carnifexes or not (Carnifexes are also one of our better units).

Genestealers and/or Hormagaunts, you don't need many, one obviously has more teeth than the other, but just use Kraken abilities to speed these guys around the field and either tie a bunch of things up, and if you miss the wrap you force them to fall back and waste their turn for a cheap investment of points (Hormagaunts), or just outright kill them (Genestealers). I take a unit of both and decide which one to sling depending on opponents deployments

If you follow me on that so far you now have two Battalions worth of units. But you gotta add some flavor to that, and the very first thing I'd go for -

Hive Guard! The glue for Tyranids, a unit of 5 or 6 uses the Single Minded Annihilation stratagem to double shoot every turn, safely from behind Line of Sight blocking terrain or inside a building. Great anti-tank which we otherwise lack, great anti-elite, and while expensive, still great value for points. Best CP sink in the army.


Knowing what I know now, if I was just starting today this would be the recommendations I'd give myself

Mostly agree with Nitro Zeus. I think the only units that I'd put as "useless" are the Hive Crone (Harpy does what it wants to do better), individually purchased Spore Mine clusters (expensive, slow, can be gotten for free from weapons), Mucolid Spores (similar reasoning as spore mines, unless you need to fill a brigade cheaply), and the Dimachaeon (some of its rules don't work and the codex melee beasts are significantly cheaper while also being more durable). Just about everything else has at least something it can lend to a list even if it isn't the most optimal pick. Even the Pyrovore is fairly usable now, which is impressive given its track record.

Thanks a lot guys. This was just what I was looking for!
Another question.. Carnifex- what's the best variant if you want something al round?

Thenord wrote:
Thanks a lot guys. This was just what I was looking for!
Another question.. Carnifex- what's the best variant if you want something al round?

For an all rounder the stock build-your-own Carnifex is probably the best. The other variants are all specialized to one degree or another.

Screamer Killer -> Anti-Heavy Infantry with D6 plasma shots and twin-talons. Also has a small moral penalty for nearby enemies but it isn't a huge factor against most forces.

Stonecrusher -> Anti-Vehicle specialist with various rules that trigger while targeting vehicles and it has high strength. Trade off is that it has less attacks than the other variants (can be mitigated somewhat with the Wrecking Ball biomorph) and it doesn't get +1 to hit rolls with its Living Battering Ram.

Thornback -> Anti-infantry as either a dedicated shooting platform or as a hybrid. Gets extra mortal wounds when ramming infantry and ignores cover with its ranged attacks.

Been having some serious success with 6 shockguard of late (paired with another 6 impguard).
The shockguard I've found are absolutely devastating VS vehicles. Granted they have short range but you can slap catalyst on them which effectively extends it to a possible 35".
Notable kills were double tapping them to take out a battlewagon and dakkajet, two DDAs in another game and a boatload of mortal wounds (albeit lucky) on an IK.
Me likely.

 Ratius wrote:
Been having some serious success with 6 shockguard of late (paired with another 6 impguard).
The shockguard I've found are absolutely devastating VS vehicles. Granted they have short range but you can slap catalyst on them which effectively extends it to a possible 35".
Notable kills were double tapping them to take out a battlewagon and dakkajet, two DDAs in another game and a boatload of mortal wounds (albeit lucky) on an IK.
Me likely.

I've been running mine as shockguard recently and the 24" doesnt bother me much

Bumping the unit up to 6 feels like its a bit over the top but at the same time I tend to lose 2 models in the first turn or so

I like taking the full 6 as if you absolutely need to kill a heavy vehicle playing SMA almost always ensures it
Also you can still split fire if needed.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Thenord wrote:
Thanks a lot guys. This was just what I was looking for!
Another question.. Carnifex- what's the best variant if you want something al round?

For an all rounder the stock build-your-own Carnifex is probably the best. The other variants are all specialized to one degree or another.

The Dakkafex-variant with devourers and Bio-acid morph is quite a good all-rounder. Shoots a ton and works in combat as well.
Some stock talon-fexes are nice as well but keep those cheap. More is better.

Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.

Full disclosure, I have no way to validate the credibility of this source.

Source:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2019/10/major-list-of-40k-leaks-and-more.html

 Dynas wrote:
Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.

Full disclosure, I have no way to validate the credibility of this source.

Source:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2019/10/major-list-of-40k-leaks-and-more.html

I've been ebay hunting the cheaper metal Biovores for awhile - yeah they really need to add a 3 pack kit for these.

I hope the gaunt box is a better / cheaper variant. Tyranids are an expensive army to play for new kids

So supposedly the tyrant is $60. Gaunts are $35. The Baal release is $40. Which means likely its not a boxed set with new models.... i feel like nids are being screwed over again

Wouldnt be overly concerned with no new models as I think the Nids still have a very good range.

But they really need some rules changes and upgrades here and there considering the current game state.

Only thing nids need, model-wise, is sturdier hormagaunts and the final transition to full plastic

I’ve ended up building biovores out of gaunts and barbed stranglers

So shockguard are still decent, then? That’s good, I’ve wishlisted a Hydra detachment with both types. Aim is to have them be dangerous enough that they have to be shot up, then have them recycle & outflank. Somewhat gimmicky, but they have the range for it, and I don’t go in for more than semi-competitive.

I guess if I wanted to make use of the hydra strat, Genestealers are the best candidates? Hormagaunts already get a third of the benefit built in…

But why? Why not just buy the extra unit and have access to them all throughout the game instead of waiting for an enemy to kill them.

Id like to see new bugs and some of the older ones like Horms brought up to useable levels. I ran a pack of 25 into a triple charge last night. Played against Ultramarine Primaris. 10 went into one of the bigger bikes, 10 into a chaplain, and 5 into an (intercessor?) squad. I killed the bike, which already had 2 wounds on it, did one wound to the infantry and one to the chaplain..... and this was with an extra attack thanks to the mission twist that adds 1 for melee. That's 75 attacks with re-rolls to hit and wound rolls of 1.

 Dynas wrote:
Aparetnly we are getting some new stuff. Sorta...
Battleforce and new Termagaunts and Hive Tyrant boxes. Says repackaged so I dont know if that means new sculpts or what. But I wish they would have not done the Tyrant and done a Biovore/Pyrovore kit.

Repackage just means that they are putting them in boxes with the new standardized slate grey background rather than the older faction-specific ones (mists and biostructures in the background for Tyranids). If we are lucky perhaps they will repack the Termagants with 4 sprues so one can have 20 per box instead of 12. Would make it easier to quickly amass a swarm and they did something similar with Carnifexes coming 2 to a box instead of solos. It would also be nice if they added another weapon sprue to the Hive Tyrant box with the options the kit is currently missing (Brainleech Devourers, Slimer Maggot Deathspitters, Duel Monstrous Boneswords, Monstrous Rending Claws - if they are feeling extra nice perhaps include options for the Monstrous Rending Claws as an option for the legs on the Flying variant).


Regarding the psychic awakening part of the rumor, I wonder if Tyranids are going to get a sequential army rule like the Marine doctrines added on? Tyranids have a very strict cycle to their invasions, so maybe they could have the option of picking a "phase" of the consumption cycle to represent with bonuses dependent on the phase. First phase would probably be directed at gaunts and 'stealers/lictors (maybe flying monsters), second phase mid-sized bugs, and third phase monsters/feeder beasts. Would be a neat way to help certain list archetypes without tinkering with the dataslates.

No other faction is going to get the level of goodness that marines received, so i wouldn't hold any hopes in that regard.

What we are going to have is a "Make your own trait" like the ones eldar got.

I would be highly delighted in a rule that encourages you to not mix hive fleets, which is something that i see as an abomination, but i would set myself for disappointment.

Spoletta wrote:
No other faction is going to get the level of goodness that marines received, so i wouldn't hold any hopes in that regard.

What we are going to have is a "Make your own trait" like the ones eldar got.

I would be highly delighted in a rule that encourages you to not mix hive fleets, which is something that i see as an abomination, but i would set myself for disappointment.

If the incentive was at all relevant enough to consider going mono-fleet for, the entire dex would have to be reworked alongside it unless you wanted to do anything other than turn the dex into Codex: Kraken competitively. It's such a fundamental and crucial part of Tyranids competitively, and even a lot of people are putting shooting units into Kraken detachments like Hive Guard and Dakkafex even when Kronos is easily available, just to get them in position more consistently. Our Hive Fleets aren't balanced like the Space Marine chapters are. All that encouraging single hive fleet play in the current state of the dex would achieve is lowering hive fleet diversity to pure Kraken for basically every single list except in the rarest cirumstances / offmeta builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
not that im against the idea, it would be good, i just think such an idea has to come with the true individualisation of Hive Fleets like the Chapters got, to make it a positive change and each hive desirable in its own right

You know their answer is going to be nerfing kraken.

What's a good start to an actually good/competitive Tyranid army? Just several boxes of Gaunts?

 blood reaper wrote:
What's a good start to an actually good/competitive Tyranid army? Just several boxes of Gaunts?

Nothing as of now, we're one of the worst armies out there to play competitively (things *MIGHT* change in December but I'm betting on the supplement not fixing anything since our problems are far more needing an entire codex reworked than mere additional rules)

Define good/competitive.

If it is good for playing against average lists without aiming to win tournaments, then almost anything in the nids arsenal is fine. We are full of choices there.

If you want something for relevant tournaments, then second question. ITC or standard 40K?

In ITC, just forget it, the current top competitive meta is unfriendly to nids.

In standard 40K you can still compete, but it's going to be a hard path.

What they said. I played a 1k game Hydra vs Primaris Ultramarines. I ran 92 models with the extra attack in close combat twist so it was made for my army. I barely won by the skin of my teeth ONLY because we were not playing matched and I could use the Hydra strategem without having to buy the units ahead of time. His 18 models nearly killed 80+.

I got a triple charge off against a Prim Chaplain, a wounded attack bike, and 5 primaris marines. I did a total of 4 wounds with 75 attacks and re-rolls to hits.

We are just severely underpowered. His list was made to take on armor/elite armies. His only anti horde was 3 of the primaris flyers with assault 6 guns and they only shot once with them before my genestealers got stuck in.