Seriously, do you guys really like all of the supposed leaks for the new Necron book? At first they were okay, but honestly, the more pieces get added to the puzzle, the more I'm thinking of packing up 40k for good.
Happens every release. You don't have all the details out yet, and haven't had a chance to view everything as a whole.
That being said I was upset when Tau were coming out because the IA was going to make spammed Riptides a huge deal when combined with Interceptor and the army would be very marker dependent and look how things turned out.
You may be right, but there may be enough in there that you can work with it.
buddha wrote: Seems a little early for the ragequit until the codex is released.
I'm aware, but seeing a Q&A and seeing how "supposedly" the units are changing, is rather disheartening.
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Savageconvoy wrote: Happens every release. You don't have all the details out yet, and haven't had a chance to view everything as a whole.
That being said I was upset when Tau were coming out because the IA was going to make spammed Riptides a huge deal when combined with Interceptor and the army would be very marker dependent and look how things turned out.
You may be right, but there may be enough in there that you can work with it.
I'll still buy the new codex obviously, but I HOPE I find something that makes me stick around.
Not saying a lot of your estimates of units are wrong. Again, pre Tau release it was easy to see that Vespid were still bad, things were geared towards gunlines, the fighter/bomber was terribad, and the Riptide was the new autotake.
But I'm sure you can find some fun builds in there. It's not bad to be skeptical or even really cynical as far as I'm concerned. Read it over, if you think you can have fun then give it a shot.
My problem with all of this doom crying with Necrons is that the things getting nerfed were easy to see a mile away and should have been predicted by anyone with any amount of impartiality. MSS needed to be nerfed, sorry it got nerfed into useless but you get to save points on the lord. RP got changed, it has its pluses and minuses now and I will wait to see exactly how it plays before I pass judgement on it. Barges got fixed, did anyone not see this one coming? Tesla no longer works on snap fire, this should not come as a surprise to anyone. If you think that this is doom and gloom because it was necrons only anti-air then I have some news for you, you still have fliers that can act as anti-air and that is better than some armies get STILL.
Everything I am reading about the Necron codex is sounding pretty good to me, I think my C'tan Shard might actually get some play! Flayed Ones are looking pretty sweet. So many things are looking a bit better while the absurd things are getting reigned in.
To me it seems that a lot of Necron players never played Necrons before the 5th codex or never play any other armies, because to me this new codex is looking alright when lined up to most other armies and I am okay with that.
i wouldn't even say to quit even after reading it.
I would say read it, then play it, then decide. Too many people think they can figure out exactly how it will play just by reading the codex. But actually playing it, and getting the feel for the new rules and combinations is a completely different story.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: My problem with all of this doom crying with Necrons is that the things getting nerfed were easy to see a mile away and should have been predicted by anyone with any amount of impartiality. MSS needed to be nerfed, sorry it got nerfed into useless but you get to save points on the lord. RP got changed, it has its pluses and minuses now and I will wait to see exactly how it plays before I pass judgement on it. Barges got fixed, did anyone not see this one coming? Tesla no longer works on snap fire, this should not come as a surprise to anyone. If you think that this is doom and gloom because it was necrons only anti-air then I have some news for you, you still have fliers that can act as anti-air and that is better than some armies get STILL.
Everything I am reading about the Necron codex is sounding pretty good to me, I think my C'tan Shard might actually get some play! Flayed Ones are looking pretty sweet. So many things are looking a bit better while the absurd things are getting reigned in.
To me it seems that a lot of Necron players never played Necrons before the 5th codex or never play any other armies, because to me this new codex is looking alright when lined up to most other armies and I am okay with that.
Barges will never see the light of day, as they both nerfed Tesla AND made it more expensive without giving it anything else. Thus, other HS options are the only way to go. Ctans are still the cost of a Land Raider, move slow, and die to bolt guns. Plus, their powers are random every shooting phase, so they're not even reliable. MSS is useless, and I hate having something that is useless. Destroyers are still useless. Special characters are hardly useful, though they did get cheaper, but meh? Overlords won't kill anything better than Tac marines in CC, and will die a lot easier now. Wraiths got better, but WHY? They didn't need to be better.
While I do agree that the Death Ray becoming a blast weapon (aka useless against flyers and scatters, too) is a terribad thing when compared to the combination of Tesla Destructors losing their Arc special rule, Tesla getting a snapshots = no Tesla nerf and the general points increase for the Necron flyers, I am pretty ok with the Nightscythe going up by 40 points - it was waaaay to underpriced post 6th and upto now.
Necron Overlords getting +1 WS and BS can only be a good thing.
Cryptek got a massive points increase (+40) but he has 1 extra wound now and comes with a built in res orb for the squad he leads (+1 to WBB) . Combine this with a Chronometron and a 20 strong warrior squad he leads suddenly has a 4+ armor save, a 5++ inv. save and a 4+ FNP save, meaning they can take incredible amounts of punishment while steadily advancing forward and flaying any vehicles within range.
Necron Lords also going from 1 to 2 wounds means less people will spam them in courts. I always felt the title "Lord" was too undeserving for a 35pt model.
Lychguard got a massive points slash (by 10) and their shields are 3++ which is doubly sweet; Praetorians got +1 attack so that's good too.
We still have the 2+ armor save artifact as relic and some other cool stuff.
C'tan are even more costly now but most of their powers are pretty insanely good - you have 4/6 useful powers against infantry and something like 3/6 useful ones against vehicles upto AV12 and 2/6 against tougher vehicles, so the chance of you getting the right power should be decent unless you want to go after Land Raiders.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: My problem with all of this doom crying with Necrons is that the things getting nerfed were easy to see a mile away and should have been predicted by anyone with any amount of impartiality. MSS needed to be nerfed, sorry it got nerfed into useless but you get to save points on the lord. RP got changed, it has its pluses and minuses now and I will wait to see exactly how it plays before I pass judgement on it. Barges got fixed, did anyone not see this one coming? Tesla no longer works on snap fire, this should not come as a surprise to anyone. If you think that this is doom and gloom because it was necrons only anti-air then I have some news for you, you still have fliers that can act as anti-air and that is better than some armies get STILL.
Everything I am reading about the Necron codex is sounding pretty good to me, I think my C'tan Shard might actually get some play! Flayed Ones are looking pretty sweet. So many things are looking a bit better while the absurd things are getting reigned in.
To me it seems that a lot of Necron players never played Necrons before the 5th codex or never play any other armies, because to me this new codex is looking alright when lined up to most other armies and I am okay with that.
Indeed. MSS are such an obvious nerf target.
This actually reminds me of Dark Eldar, although of course I'll reserve judgment until after the codex is released. DE were nerfed overall, with obvious units nerfed, and they are harder to play, but excluding Taudar, they feel balanced. Eventually, when the 6th edition codices get rewritten, everything some come out a wash (and for the better).
The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
Arbiter_Shade wrote: My problem with all of this doom crying with Necrons is that the things getting nerfed were easy to see a mile away and should have been predicted by anyone with any amount of impartiality. MSS needed to be nerfed, sorry it got nerfed into useless but you get to save points on the lord. RP got changed, it has its pluses and minuses now and I will wait to see exactly how it plays before I pass judgement on it. Barges got fixed, did anyone not see this one coming? Tesla no longer works on snap fire, this should not come as a surprise to anyone. If you think that this is doom and gloom because it was necrons only anti-air then I have some news for you, you still have fliers that can act as anti-air and that is better than some armies get STILL.
Everything I am reading about the Necron codex is sounding pretty good to me, I think my C'tan Shard might actually get some play! Flayed Ones are looking pretty sweet. So many things are looking a bit better while the absurd things are getting reigned in.
To me it seems that a lot of Necron players never played Necrons before the 5th codex or never play any other armies, because to me this new codex is looking alright when lined up to most other armies and I am okay with that.
Barges will never see the light of day, as they both nerfed Tesla AND made it more expensive without giving it anything else.
In most cases, this was perfectly warranted. Annihilation Barges are still excellent units, they're just not auto-take units anymore. They've got a ton of shots that are twin linked, so even when Jinking they'll still hit something, and when not jinking they remain as capable as they were before. For what they are, you could do a whole lot worse, those things will still see table space.
Thus, other HS options are the only way to go. Ctans are still the cost of a Land Raider, move slow, and die to bolt guns.
If you let 72 boltguns get in range and they've got nothing better to shoot at maybe.
Plus, their powers are random every shooting phase, so they're not even reliable.
That's a fair point, but they're also far from the only unit with that issue.
MSS is useless, and I hate having something that is useless.
Every codex has some of these. That said, it was obscenely overpowered before.
Destroyers are still useless.
They got an extra wound and the ability to hop behind terrain like Crisis suits if the rumors are correct, and remain the same price, these things are great...
Overlords won't kill anything better than Tac marines in CC
Overlords are still going to be solid, they're just not going to be one-man wrecking crews able to match blades and survivability with the greatest of CC characters anymore, but they'll be correspondingly cheaper as well.
Wraiths got better, but WHY? They didn't need to be better.
You sound like you're in the wrong game anyway. 40k as a soley competitive game is laughable. If all your meta refuse to play anything that isn't the best then of course it's gonna get boring.
Embrace the game as intended, plus with some tournaments for fun, or go play sport or a mid-school video game, the new ones are often broken.
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
Sucks for your area. I can't fathom how people still think the old codex is better. There were some things that were better and I miss, but on a whole, this book is lightyears better.
I think if anyone was able to stomach Ward's 5th edition codex with its incredibly silly fluff and hit-and-miss crunch, they shouldn't have a problem with the new one.
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
Sucks for your area. I can't fathom how people still think the old codex is better. There were some things that were better and I miss, but on a whole, this book is lightyears better.
I hated the whole Lootas moving to heavy support, Heavy support in the Orks codex is way to congested right now, But other than that, it is superior to the 4th ed Orkl Dex in every way,
Regarding Necrons., wait and see until it's released.
Have people really not learned to wait and see yet? I remember before the Tau and Eldar Codexes, all the doom and gloom. People didn't think much of the Wraithknight or Riptide, I remember that much.
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
Sucks for your area. I can't fathom how people still think the old codex is better. There were some things that were better and I miss, but on a whole, this book is lightyears better.
I hated the whole Lootas moving to heavy support, Heavy support in the Orks codex is way to congested right now, But other than that, it is superior to the 4th ed Orkl Dex in every way,
Regarding Necrons., wait and see until it's released.
I will agree, the Loota swap was hard. But, to be honest, that role fits them far better than Elites. I feel like Lootas now sort of fulfill a good role in lower point games. I rarely took them ANYWAY in bigger games, even when they were elites, because they often DIED before actually earning their value. They made good distraction units, but I didn't WANT them to be distraction units...they just had targets on their heads because they are LOOTAS :p So, their new Force Org slot is more fitting, but they see a lot less play in bigger games because Mek Gunz do their job better in higher point games.
BrianDavion wrote: with any luck 'crons will now simply be a balanced codex
They were so close...until they make Wraiths even better
But will Wraiths alone make the Dex over the top? Especially a close combat unit? I get they were good anyway, but, in an edition that is still CC negligent?
The majority of data we've seen regarding the codex are buffs. Yes, MSS got nerfed. Yes, Anni Barges got nerfed. Yes, C'tans are pretty much ass unless it turns out that they can use their powers twice (which seems unlikely due to the no-shooting a weapon twice clause). Yes, flyers got nerfed.
Buuuut, almost everything else got a buff. Wraiths are fething insane, for instance. You got to keep all your SC's. And while Anni Barges got nerfed, they only went from "super undercosted and stupid" to "what they should have been", which is pretty fair.
Dunno. Maybe my outlook is skewed because I don't play Necrons. But to me it feels like you guys are making out pretty good.
Melevolence wrote: But will Wraiths alone make the Dex over the top? Especially a close combat unit? I get they were good anyway, but, in an edition that is still CC negligent?
Wraithwing has been one of the Necron's strongest builds all through the 5th and 6th edition. A 12'' moving, terrain ignoring T5 2W 3++ strength 6 initiative 5 rending monster at 40ppm will always be excellent.
CC is hardly negligent in this edition, only largely mechanized MEQCC (which many equate to being CC in general). Wraiths have been a staple in many top tournament Necron armies for quite some time.
40pts for Fearless T5 W2 3++ A3 S6 Rending "beast" models, are certainly going to win lots of games for people.
I understand they are good, but the question still stands: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'. Yes, they will win games. All books tend to have a unit that does that. Wraiths might be the new 'cheese', but, I dunno if it will make the dex helplessly unbalanced.
Melevolence wrote: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'.
Riptides
Surely Wave Serpents are the best example.
There are plenty of examples. Best one honestly would be the Heldrake. Subpar and bland codex that got no end to the grief for having ONE amazing unit.
Yes. Out of the billions of people on this planet at this exact moment, you're the only person that truly feels disappointed with the new codex.
On topic, I don't understand the disappointment. Almost all the units got buffs one way or another, the formations are pretty badass (I plan to use the Judicator and Destroyer ones on my competitive lists now, since there's so much that can be done), and the army has hit the balance point between the feel of the 3rd Edition Codex and the 5th Edition Codex.
You know what, I have nothing personal against you but i think you should sell your necron army. If you are complaining about a dex that is tournament worthy (nightscythe spam) then I think you need to quit. You can use that money to buy a new army or restart a new necron army.
Dude... the codex is fine, better than fine actually. The biggest nerf was MSS and I admit I am waiting for other Necron players to start whining about losing them. The codex is competitive, fluffy with the Formation to end all Formations and to boot I can already see Necron foot-hordes coming back with a vengeance, that will totally be a fun AND close match.
EDIT: Can I buy your army? 20% MRSP my best offer.
Melevolence wrote: I understand they are good, but the question still stands: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'. Yes, they will win games. All books tend to have a unit that does that. Wraiths might be the new 'cheese', but, I dunno if it will make the dex helplessly unbalanced.
Hey, they are almost copy paste TWC, but the difference is that TWC have one more attack, one less strenght and have to pay for the 3++, but a standar calvary model with the SS is like 50 ppm, so i dont find them so overpowered
Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators were a little less cool.
Reasonable, intelligent, talkative, diplomatic Egyptian Space Terminators are lame.
In short, the Newcrons were a downgrade in 5th Edition. They way they were presented in the Shield Your Baals books is worse than that.
M-Matt? Is that you!?
I think you may be confused, child. Mat Ward wrote the "Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators" that I said "were a little less cool".
The cool Necrons were written by the Andys and Phil Kelly.
I'm glad to see bits and pieces of the oldcron codex making a comeback. The nerf to the resorb was a bit weird to me, why not let it keep it's +1 to RP and make Crypteks have the ability to reroll failed RP once per game?
Loss of Semp Weave? No biggie to me, we didn't have access at all to a 2+ armor save in the Oldcron codex
Phase shifter a 4++? Okay, that's what it was in the oldcron dex (though it was weird then that wraiths were also equipped with phase shifters but got a 3++)
Yeah, destroyers lost their 12" move but regained their ability to JSJ (yes, they had it before) which is good to me (PLUS now they have 2 wounds!)
Heavy Destroyers back into Heavy Support? Just as it should be.
Veil of Darkness a relic? Guess what, Oldcrons could only take 1 back in the day too! (though the one use only irks me a bit)
Scarabs now have the Oldcron disruption fields built in, not too shabby (though sure, a nerf from the Wardcron's Entropic Strike)
Lychguard are stronger, Wraiths are just getting stronger and stronger (miss your Oldcron Wraiths with WBB? There's a formation granting them RP), The MSS nerf we all knew was coming, The Annihilation Barge may have been overly nerfed but is still useable, The Doomsday Ark became stronger and cheaper, Flayed Ones are once again useable, Praetorians are stronger, Triarch Stalkers can be taken in squadrons and got a little nifty sidegrade, The scythe nerfs we knew were coming and it wasn't really even that bad, the Decurion Detachment is optional and has plenty of cool buffs within it, RP got an overall buff... etc.
If I didn't have school, work and a chaos army in the (re)making, I'd get right back into Necrons. I'm pretty happy for Necrons right now.
Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators were a little less cool.
Reasonable, intelligent, talkative, diplomatic Egyptian Space Terminators are lame.
In short, the Newcrons were a downgrade in 5th Edition. They way they were presented in the Shield Your Baals books is worse than that.
M-Matt? Is that you!?
I think you may be confused, child. Mat Ward wrote the "Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators" that I said "were a little less cool".
The cool Necrons were written by the Andys and Phil Kelly.
Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators were a little less cool.
Reasonable, intelligent, talkative, diplomatic Egyptian Space Terminators are lame.
In short, the Newcrons were a downgrade in 5th Edition. They way they were presented in the Shield Your Baals books is worse than that.
M-Matt? Is that you!?
I think you may be confused, child. Mat Ward wrote the "Less mysterious, intelligent, angry Egyptian Space Terminators" that I said "were a little less cool".
The cool Necrons were written by the Andys and Phil Kelly.
Phil Kelly was involved in writing the fluff for Shield of Baal.
Melevolence wrote: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'.
Riptides
Surely Wave Serpents are the best example.
There are plenty of examples. Best one honestly would be the Heldrake. Subpar and bland codex that got no end to the grief for having ONE amazing unit.
You forgot the ML3 Iron Arm Endurance Daemon Prince with spell familiar, wings and black mace. Or burning brand of Skalathrax which is like a Heldrake but wounding on 4+.
Or Forgefiends who average 4 S8 hits with each volley.
Or Plague Bikers.
Or Blastmaster Noise Marines deleting your SMurfs in cover from halfway across the board.
Melevolence wrote: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'.
Riptides
Surely Wave Serpents are the best example.
There are plenty of examples. Best one honestly would be the Heldrake. Subpar and bland codex that got no end to the grief for having ONE amazing unit.
You forgot the ML3 Iron Arm Endurance Daemon Prince with spell familiar, wings and black mace. Or burning brand of Skalathrax which is like a Heldrake but wounding on 4+.
Or Forgefiends who average 4 S8 hits with each volley.
Or Plage Bikers.
Or Blastmaster Noise Marines deleting your SMurfs in cover from halfway across the board.
only one of those four units is actually tournament-level competitive (the DP, and then chaos daemon princes are better), and none of them are overpowered.
Natalya wrote: only one of those three units is actually tournament-level competitive, and none of them are overpowered.
4/5 okay units definitely do not a good codex make.
So what do the Eldar have, besides the Wave Serpent and Warp Spiders? The Knight is too costly and can easily get one-shotted by grav, their flyers are glass cannons and the seer council isnt what it once was.
Natalya wrote: only one of those three units is actually tournament-level competitive, and none of them are overpowered.
4/5 okay units definitely do not a good codex make.
So what do the Eldar have, besides the Wave Serpent and Warp Spiders? The Knight is too costly and can easily get one-shotted by grav, their flyers are glass cannons and the seer council isnt what it once was.
Well the consensus on dakka seems to be Eldar, Tau and Daemons are top tier codexes while DA and CSM are low tier, but its funny how the top tier codexes are praised for a handful of auto-take units while the same handful of good units principle in the case of CSM does not make a good codex, according to you.
Sir Arun wrote: Well the consensus on dakka seems to be Eldar, Tau and Daemons are top tier codexes while DA and CSM are low tier, but its funny how the top tier codexes are praised for a handful of auto-take units while the same handful of good units principle does not make a good codex, according to you.
I don't think Eldar is an overly good codex. It's a powerful, competitive codex, but that doesn't make it well written, for the reasons you described.
Tau is more rounded, I think. A lot more balance internally. There's a difference between top tier codex and well written codex.
Sir Arun wrote: Well the consensus on dakka seems to be Eldar, Tau and Daemons are top tier codexes while DA and CSM are low tier, but its funny how the top tier codexes are praised for a handful of auto-take units while the same handful of good units principle in the case of CSM does not make a good codex, according to you.
Obviously, because the Eldar good units are a bit better than the CSM good units, and also because it's impossible to make a 1850 point single source army with CSM that does not suck.
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Jackal wrote: So, OP units got brought down and the junk units got a boost.
Sounds like balance to me.
Indeed.
I'll have to review the whole dex before I say that, but for now, just knowing that Scythes and Annihilation Barges got the bat, as well as all the crappy ones getting buffs comforts me in the idea that "yes, GW is working hard on the balance of 40K".
With regard to the nerf to Tesla, it makes me more than a little depressed that Annihilation Barges are no longer useful anti-air. Frankly, it was nice to have anti-air stuff that wasn't a) crap against everything else *cough* Hydra *cough* or b) an aircraft itself.
Also, whilst it *might* have been reasonable for the Tesla Destructor (still not convinced)... what about all our other Tesla? What's the point of even taking Tesla elsewhere? You have to trade Rapid Fire (i.e. twice the shots at close range), AP4 *and* the Gauss rule for a few more shots at 24", and no benefit whatsoever when snapshotting. I don't see the appeal.
I feel with the nerf to tesla with snap shots no longer adding the benefit of extra shots it will make tesla all but useless. AP nothing makes this mostly useless, old benefit was could cause lots of saves, now 1 or 2 saves per round of shooting, maybe, kinda useless.
It's more shots at long range and let's you assault after firing without attaching a Phaeron. Its not much, but at least there's some uses.
I will admit to feeling a bit disheartened at first. I even pulled out my war machines models to remind myself of some rules.
There are definitely a lot of little things that big me still (like 6+ on scarabs now...), but I've crunched a small list out and am quite happy with what I'm seeing. I'm really looking forward to letting people know wraiths are T5 now. Resurrection protocols are also looking like lots of "fun" to screw around with, especially with the drastically cheaper elites. It's nice to have some new options to try out after a few years of nothing but barges and night scythes.
vipoid wrote: With regard to the nerf to Tesla, it makes me more than a little depressed that Annihilation Barges are no longer useful anti-air. Frankly, it was nice to have anti-air stuff that wasn't a) crap against everything else *cough* Hydra *cough* or b) an aircraft itself.
Also, whilst it *might* have been reasonable for the Tesla Destructor (still not convinced)... what about all our other Tesla? What's the point of even taking Tesla elsewhere? You have to trade Rapid Fire (i.e. twice the shots at close range), AP4 *and* the Gauss rule for a few more shots at 24", and no benefit whatsoever when snapshotting. I don't see the appeal.
That's so sad. An anti air vehicle that never should've been ends up not being one.
Tesla works perfectly now, it just doesn't reduce the snap fire penalty to 50% or less.
It was never meant to have a benefit when snap shooting, that was fix and that's perfect.
Your argument is that because Tesla was glitched and the glitch seemed really nice to you, it's bad now.
No, my argument is that, intentional or not, the snapshot thing was what made Tesla worthwhile on a lot of units.
With it gone, there's really no reason to ever take Tesla.
On immortals the Gauss Weapon will almost always be better now, and i liked the idea of tesla but no extra shots when snap firing without giving it something is bad.
Your argument is that because Tesla was glitched and the glitch seemed really nice to you, it's bad now.
No, my argument is that, intentional or not, the snapshot thing was what made Tesla worthwhile on a lot of units.
With it gone, there's really no reason to ever take Tesla.
On immortals the Gauss Weapon will almost always be better now, and i liked the idea of tesla but no extra shots when snap firing without giving it something is bad.
It makes sense from a design perspective though:
Idea: Let's give them a weapon that gets more hits when you roll a 6.
Implementation: gak, with v6 and snap firing, that gives them only a 50% reduction instead of 75% reduction in fire power.
Fix: That ability doesn't work when snap firing.
And now they get to test their initial idea, after which players will react and they'll know how to adapt it.
Idea: Let's give them a weapon that gets more hits when you roll a 6.
Implementation: gak, with v6 and snap firing, that gives them only a 50% reduction instead of 75% reduction in fire power.
Fix: That ability doesn't work when snap firing.
That's missing the wood for the trees. Increased accuracy on snapshots does not, in and of itself, cause problems. Especially when those weapon are markedly worse than comparable weapons. Hence, if you do decide to implement something like this, you have to buff that weapon in other areas instead.
Though, I'd argue the bigger problem is that the snapshot mechanic was, and still is, gak.
Idea: Let's give them a weapon that gets more hits when you roll a 6.
Implementation: gak, with v6 and snap firing, that gives them only a 50% reduction instead of 75% reduction in fire power.
Fix: That ability doesn't work when snap firing.
That's missing the wood for the trees. Increased accuracy on snapshots does not, in and of itself, cause problems. Especially when those weapon are markedly worse than comparable weapons. Hence, if you do decide to implement something like this, you have to buff that weapon in other areas instead.
Though, I'd argue the bigger problem is that the snapshot mechanic was, and still is, gak.
Well yes, that's the forest (not a wood mind you) right there, the fact that Snap Firing doesn't affect everyone equally.
Orks are a very good example of army wide not giving a feth about snap firing.
Still, the first thing to do was to fix the glitch in the Tesla mechanic, and somehow the past years of tesla snap firing gave game developers the idea that even without it Tesla would still be too powerful.
Maybe they were wrong. We'll see.
I dont see the complaint about anti-air here. Dont forget that your basic troop and ghost arks are covered with a weapon that bring down flyers. Granted its not a likely thing to get a six on a six, but when compared to most armies that have zero chance of their basic guns taking down a flyer I think this is not going to be a problem. So rejoice! Nothing bad happened and all will be well, and maybe people might even use monoliths again!
Also I'm not seeing the hate for fluff like shield of Baal. If you wake up and your planet and all your great works is about to be nommed I think you take your chances with the enemy of my enemy. Besides, Anrakyr is not insane, which means he is not stupid and he we killing 2 birds with one stone. Let the Tyranids eat up all the imperials, then swoop in once the tendril has passed and reclaim some of their old tech while finishing off a greatly weakened Imperial presence. Mindlessly murdering the only chance you have to survive/free human shields is a very poor tactical choice, and guys like Anrakyr are supposed to be super intelligent beings with eons of experience in warfare, who has a track record of treating his opponents honorably if they showed him the proper respect.
Still, the first thing to do was to fix the glitch in the Tesla mechanic, and somehow the past years of tesla snap firing gave game developers the idea that even without it Tesla would still be too powerful.
Maybe they were wrong. We'll see.
What do you mean maybe. On immortals it is way better to not take tesla . AB went from good unit to meh.
I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.
I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.
I'm extremely happy with the new Codex.
I can understand that people with 4 NS's, 12 Wraiths and 3 AB's are less happy.
Though they might still be happy because Wraiths got buffed and only pay 5 points more for it.
Overall I think the new Codex is stronger, you just have to play a different list.
I think the Necron players who are going to be upset are the ones who:
1- Relied on MSS somehow being the only viable Defense in CC. I'm seeing a fair amount of Cron players who already treated it as a meh item and the loss isn't that big of a deal. Yes you're going to see some Cron players whine over it, but I don't think you're going to see very many.
2- Abused CCBs knowing, and even being warned, that it wasn't going to stay that way. Still these players went out and bought the Kit, built the CCBs, then acted like it was the only way to remain competitive.
3- Spammed ABs or Cron Air. These are still going to be around, but they're going to pay for it., while remaining fairly less effective with the changes to Tesla. I never felt that either of these were 'must haves' and did just fine W/o them.
4- Those that were dependent on the variety of Cryptek shenanigans to do the bulk of the work. DnD squads and Stormtek Spam are two of the ones that come to mind. If you never learned to play w/o these, then yeah you're probably going to hate the New Dex.
So far from what we've seen, Warriors remain one of the best units in the Codex, and even THEY got better. We have SEVERAL CC options to fit different army lists, player preferences, and local Metas. Most of the Core mechanics are still there even if the roles have changed, and you have to get the unit that now does what you want.
Give it a chance. I'm sure we're going to have some Netlists up soon anyways.
The Tesla / Gauss Blaster dilemma was relevant in 5th edition when you had to choose between AP4 and 2 shot rapid fire, or move and still shoot once upto 24" and 2 extra shots on every 6 to wound with the added benefit of being able to assault after shooting.
Tesla won by a small margin.
When 6th edition released and the Gauss Blaster was now also able to move and still shoot once upto max range, suddenly the Tesla wasnt so good anymore. Especially since staying put and rapid-fire overwatch was arguably the same, if not better than shooting and charging a squad.
The new edition removes tesla snapfires and settles the debate in favor of the gauss blasters, if it wasnt settled already.
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.
I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.
I am just disappointed they didn't buff Tesla some other way, I liked the theme for it as a weapon but it would be hard to justify compared to gauss now, it is just so weak. Thankfully I think I still have the Gauss bits so i should be able to convert mine back to gauss from tesla.
Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
jreilly89 wrote: Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
i don't really see the problem with warscythes, they were basically the equivalent of a chain fist with lower strength but at initiative 2 instead of 1.
jreilly89 wrote: Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
Warscythes had to go?
They are still here, just with AP2 instead of 1 and that hardly matters.
RP is actually buffed, so is ResOrb. They just work differently now.
And Tesla didn't need a nerf.
The Tesla-rule didn't work as intended and that made AB's/NS's nearly ignore the drawback from Jinking.
AB's are still okay, though I think the increase to 130 is a bit too high.
Some things I do dislike:
-Loss of Harbingers.
-MSS works with Fear now, everything relevant ignores Fear already. When will GW ever learn that Fear sucks?
-Monoliths are still Ordnance.
-Ghost Ark limited to Warriors only.
jreilly89 wrote: Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
i don't really see the problem with warscythes, they were basically the equivalent of a chain fist with lower strength but at initiative 2 instead of 1.
jreilly89 wrote: Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
Warscythes are still around, and are STILL the only viable option to take on a warlord, so yeah, nothing was fixed. Also, RP didn't technically get nerfed. Quite the contrary, if you spend your points wisely, you could make whatever unit you want survive most of the game. Heck, they had to get rid of 2+ 3++ saves because it would've been obnoxious with a 4+ FNP rerolling 1s from the formation.
jreilly89 wrote: Overall, the Necron codex looks good. MSS and Warscythes had to go. They were an auto take on every lord. RP getting a Nerf seemed eh, but whatever. Wraiths didn't need a buff but I doubt it will make them OP. I don't know why Tesla got needed. I see the reason, but it never felt that OP.
Overall, I'm excited to play my Necron buddy once he gets the new codex.
Warscythes had to go?
They are still here, just with AP2 instead of 1 and that hardly matters.
RP is actually buffed, so is ResOrb. They just work differently now.
And Tesla didn't need a nerf.
The Tesla-rule didn't work as intended and that made AB's/NS's nearly ignore the drawback from Jinking.
AB's are still okay, though I think the increase to 130 is a bit too high.
Some things I do dislike:
-Loss of Harbingers.
-MSS works with Fear now, everything relevant ignores Fear already. When will GW ever learn that Fear sucks?
-Monoliths are still Ordnance.
-Ghost Ark limited to Warriors only.
Also, Warriors are min squad 10 now, so no putting characters with them right off the bat.
But yes, I agree with these points. The only reason I'd probably use the Monolith now is because A barges aren't worth anything other than being a paperweight.
Still, the first thing to do was to fix the glitch in the Tesla mechanic, and somehow the past years of tesla snap firing gave game developers the idea that even without it Tesla would still be too powerful.
Maybe they were wrong. We'll see.
Yes, and we've seen how smart the game designers are with all of this Fear going around.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Filch wrote: You know what, I have nothing personal against you but i think you should sell your necron army. If you are complaining about a dex that is tournament worthy (nightscythe spam) then I think you need to quit. You can use that money to buy a new army or restart a new necron army.
My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: That's a typical reaction to changes. Panic.
This is why I don't come to this forum anymore. You guys are missing the point.
My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.
So basically you object to the changes for thematic and fluff reasons?
You really should have clarified this in the first post and listed what you did & didn't like. Since it was vague, naturally people just jumped in to point out all of the positive changes to RP and formations and what not.
I've been playing Necrons since the black codex - what 4th ed or 5th Ed. I loved the last codex and - I don't think this one is that much different from it.
Crypteks are still in the army - although I will grant you they lost some of their diversity. It felt like they didn't want to make a multipart plastic kit for them so they just made them more generic. I'll miss that aspect.
All other changes have either been "no change" or "positive" IMO. Honestly what else did they lose? Nothing really. All the units are still there... most of the same powers...
Other than Crypteks I can't think of one change that resulted in loss of flavor... certainly not enough to quit the entire game over. Can you list the ones you dislike?
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.
I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.
Wraiths are 3++ and +1T
Phase Shifters are 4++ now. Previously this is what Wraiths had. Unless they get a new piece of wargear that gives them 3++ and I missed it?
With the nerf to tesla it made the AB pretty much useless. The only killing power/ survivability it had was the ability to jink and still be able to cause wounds. Now with the fact that tesla doesnt add extra for snapshots. What is the point in taking AB anymore, fluff wise or it you like it that is a completely different animal. But competitively it has no use.
If quantum shielding works the same as 5th then fine take the hit, get penned, then you have a gunboat that is armor 11 all around, with a 24" range gun. Which means it will die and die quick.
You also shouldn't be relying on the Barges then. What about the other threats in your list? I'm fine with someone focusing on the AB. Means they're not shooting my troops, who are also shooting their stuff.
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.
I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.
Wraiths are 3++ and +1T
Phase Shifters are 4++ now. Previously this is what Wraiths had. Unless they get a new piece of wargear that gives them 3++ and I missed it?
Wraiths have Wraith Form, which gives them the 3++. They don't have Phase Shifters anymore.
Still, the first thing to do was to fix the glitch in the Tesla mechanic, and somehow the past years of tesla snap firing gave game developers the idea that even without it Tesla would still be too powerful.
Maybe they were wrong. We'll see.
What do you mean maybe. On immortals it is way better to not take tesla . AB went from good unit to meh.
AB went from most undercosted in all of 40K to I don't even know what it is right now.
My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.
So basically you object to the changes for thematic and fluff reasons?
You really should have clarified this in the first post and listed what you did & didn't like. Since it was vague, naturally people just jumped in to point out all of the positive changes to RP and formations and what not.
I've been playing Necrons since the black codex - what 4th ed or 5th Ed. I loved the last codex and - I don't think this one is that much different from it.
Crypteks are still in the army - although I will grant you they lost some of their diversity. It felt like they didn't want to make a multipart plastic kit for them so they just made them more generic. I'll miss that aspect.
All other changes have either been "no change" or "positive" IMO. Honestly what else did they lose? Nothing really. All the units are still there... most of the same powers... Other than Crypteks I can't think of one change that resulted in loss of flavor... certainly not enough to quit the entire game over. Can you list the ones you dislike?
Certainly. And there are things I dislike that aren't necessarily fluff things. There were things I was hoping to change that didn't, or didn't how I wanted them to.
- Ctans got more flavorful, yet are useless since their powers are random, still cost the same as a Land Raider, and didn't gain any movement buffs or survivability. So, still on the shelf. - Overlords will most likely run away from anything decent in CC, and don't provide any real benefit to their army besides a Res orb for their unit, and Phaeron is gone. Why would you take Phaeron away.... - Crypteks, as we've discussed. - Imotekh lost a bit of flavor, but got cheaper. That being said, I don't think he's worth his points as a LoW. - Obyron sucks now. He's just a warscythe with WS6 pretty much. - Living metal is meh. - Lychguard didn't really get any different, though they are better. - Particle Weapons didn't receive anything. There's still little reason to use them. - Tesla got nerfed to the point where it is practically useless now on most platforms besides the Night Scythe. - The Relics, while cool, are mostly One Use Only things. That's disappointing. - The Wargear selection has gone DOWN from their previous book. And I thought they were bland before. - Destroyer Lords are still the same, so boring. - I would have been happier if they just removed MSS from the book. They will never see play. - GW seems to still think Fear is worth anything. I don't understand why. - Reanimation, while better, doesn't feel like Necrons anymore. - 5th Ed. Was "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord". Now, 7th ed is "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord".
As I said, not everything is a direct dislike of fluff, a lot of it is still mechanics, but it's disappointing nonetheless. The army seems to have lost it's appeal, and to anyone going to troll, this is coming from someone who never spammed Night Scythes or A Barges. I'm just sad I'll never get to use Barges again. Or the monolith, for that matter.
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
The elites slot is looking a lot better now with things I am going to proxy and play test now.
I'll still probably play my list as a large Phalanx with hordes of warriors and Immortals.
Wraiths are 3++ and +1T
Phase Shifters are 4++ now. Previously this is what Wraiths had. Unless they get a new piece of wargear that gives them 3++ and I missed it?
Wraiths have Wraith Form, which gives them the 3++. They don't have Phase Shifters anymore.
Yep. Another thing borrowed from the 3rd ed book. Give the monolith DS protection and throw pariahs back in, and this is almost 3rd ed v2
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).
There you have it, they just got a good nerf.
If indeed they get to pay for I5 instead of reducing enemies to I1, that's a decent nerf.
It means they go down to 1 when I charge them with banshees for example, and a Daemon Prince will just hurt them bad before they start fighting back.
Still.... crazy amount of resilience per point isn't it ?
partninja wrote: I refuse to adjust and want to play every game the same way for all time.
/Sarcasm
Can't wait for the new codex. Things that got "nerfed"/changed won't bother my army too much. Quite a few things are better or had the rules more simplified.
I'm on the fence about Wraiths - Think I would prefer the 3++ over 4++ and +1T but that will have to be something I play test.
4++ and +1T is way better. You don't get any more instant death from anything S8-9, so basically almost nothing in the game can deny your two wounds anymore, that IS badass.
It also makes you more resilient against S4 and even S5 and S6 spam including Tau and Eldar.
I mean....Wraiths still have a 3+......for real.
Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
I mean, I honestly don't know why they buffed Wraiths. Buffed them hard. I rarely used them anyways, but now it appears to be the only way to go. Now T5, still a 3++, the have Fleet now, they go at Init 5 if you take Whip Coils (Which is overall now cheaper. 43 ppm as opposed to 45 ppm in the old dex).
There you have it, they just got a good nerf.
If indeed they get to pay for I5 instead of reducing enemies to I1, that's a decent nerf.
It means they go down to 1 when I charge them with banshees for example, and a Daemon Prince will just hurt them bad before they start fighting back.
Still.... crazy amount of resilience per point isn't it ?
Eh, I'm not worried. Still T5 with a 3++. They'll survive pretty much anything that charges, even a Daemon Prince.
I am pouting over the apparent 20PPM scarabs. Last time they had this stat line (well, except they were jetbikes instead of beasts) they were only 16 ppm...
Not overly heartbroken, other than the loss of my Veils, but definitely pouting.
My grief, good sir, is not that Necrons are bad. If anything, they got better in a lot of areas, and their playstyle shifted. This is fine, and to be expected with a new codex. I don't give two gaks about competitive play in a game that is so widely unbalanced, even though Necrons weren't the best army out there. My grief is mostly with the fact that they managed to take away even more flavor from an already flavorless army IMO. Hence my disinterest with the book.
So basically you object to the changes for thematic and fluff reasons?
You really should have clarified this in the first post and listed what you did & didn't like. Since it was vague, naturally people just jumped in to point out all of the positive changes to RP and formations and what not.
I've been playing Necrons since the black codex - what 4th ed or 5th Ed. I loved the last codex and - I don't think this one is that much different from it.
Crypteks are still in the army - although I will grant you they lost some of their diversity. It felt like they didn't want to make a multipart plastic kit for them so they just made them more generic. I'll miss that aspect.
All other changes have either been "no change" or "positive" IMO. Honestly what else did they lose? Nothing really. All the units are still there... most of the same powers...
Other than Crypteks I can't think of one change that resulted in loss of flavor... certainly not enough to quit the entire game over. Can you list the ones you dislike?
Certainly. And there are things I dislike that aren't necessarily fluff things. There were things I was hoping to change that didn't, or didn't how I wanted them to.
- Ctans got more flavorful, yet are useless since their powers are random, still cost the same as a Land Raider, and didn't gain any movement buffs or survivability. So, still on the shelf.
- Overlords will most likely run away from anything decent in CC, and don't provide any real benefit to their army besides a Res orb for their unit, and Phaeron is gone. Why would you take Phaeron away....
- Crypteks, as we've discussed.
- Imotekh lost a bit of flavor, but got cheaper. That being said, I don't think he's worth his points as a LoW.
- Obyron sucks now. He's just a warscythe with WS6 pretty much.
- Living metal is meh.
- Lychguard didn't really get any different, though they are better.
- Particle Weapons didn't receive anything. There's still little reason to use them.
- Tesla got nerfed to the point where it is practically useless now on most platforms besides the Night Scythe.
- The Relics, while cool, are mostly One Use Only things. That's disappointing.
- The Wargear selection has gone DOWN from their previous book. And I thought they were bland before.
- Destroyer Lords are still the same, so boring.
- I would have been happier if they just removed MSS from the book. They will never see play.
- GW seems to still think Fear is worth anything. I don't understand why.
- Reanimation, while better, doesn't feel like Necrons anymore.
- 5th Ed. Was "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord". Now, 7th ed is "Take a Warscythe on your Overlord".
As I said, not everything is a direct dislike of fluff, a lot of it is still mechanics, but it's disappointing nonetheless. The army seems to have lost it's appeal, and to anyone going to troll, this is coming from someone who never spammed Night Scythes or A Barges. I'm just sad I'll never get to use Barges again. Or the monolith, for that matter.
I decided to look at each of these points because a lot of it is complaining just to complain.
1. C'Tan always had crap powers. At least the powers themselves, while random, are completely better. Not to mention that The Nightbringer has Psychic Shriek, essentially. If you want more of a buff to survivability, there's a fairly cheap formation to help with that.
2. Foot Overlords DID THAT ANYWAY. Overlords aren't known for killing power anyway; that's what Destroyer Lords are for.
3. Crypteks were overall buffed. They were too expensive as shooting platforms anyway, and the Haywire Stick, which I loved, was a bit over the top. Now they're a support HQ, which feels more correct compared to what was either an expensive shooting attack or a sacrificial Haywire Stick. Not like the other options were exceptional anyway.
4. He's 190 points. That's not bad for a Foot Overlord with decent shooting attacks. I would say the Lightning attack was BUFFED, since it's much more likely to activate. Even if it only lasts one turn, I'd rather have better activation. He can also take up a non-LOW slot in one of the formations.
5. That's what Obyron always WAS. Pretending otherwise is pure denial on your part.
6. Explain the complaints about Living Metal.
7. This statement is a contradiction. If they didn't really become any different, how are they better. Sometimes a price cut is literally all that's needed to make a more attractive option presentable, and with the buffs to WBB they became even more hard to kill.
8. There wasn't much reason to use them to begin with. However, they're a cheap shooting attack on Wraiths, and a minor counter for swarms when used with Spyders and Stalkers.
9. It's useless on Immortals, but that's it. If you're constantly having to jink your Barges, there's something wrong with your average rolling. No sympathy given on this end, I don't care.
10. And this is an issue why? They're cheap enough as is that you shouldn't really care.
11. Except they have more options and are slightly cheaper at base cost? What exactly is boring about Destroyer Lords?
12. It's a 10 point upgrade. There's lots of 10 point upgrades that never see the light of day. If there's room, taking it doesn't really hurt anything though. You can go ahead and claim it's useless against certain armies, but there's a 10 Point Meltagun that's disappointed it's facing Tyranids. SO what's the issue?
13. Fair point on Fear. It's not the single greatest rule ever.
14. I fail to see how it isn't Necrons, when you're putting yourself together when getting shot at. Coupled with it being buffed, you just seem disappointed not to set things on their side or use bloody counters. Being sinfully durable IS Necrons.
15. It's always been that way since they don't have many weapon options to begin with. That's like complaining that you always take a PF/TH on a Chapter Master. Nothing says you have to, but it's simply the best option.
I just dislike that they removed his "Save Zahndrekh"-ability.
They are no longer a duo that can be taken as a single HQ slot too.
6. Explain the complaints about Living Metal.
I don't get this either, especially with the Detachment.
Old: Ignore Shaken/Stunned on a roll.
New + Decurion: Ignore them. Also regain HP's on Heavies on a roll.
Vaktathi wrote:CC is hardly negligent in this edition, only largely mechanized MEQCC (which many equate to being CC in general). Wraiths have been a staple in many top tournament Necron armies for quite some time.
40pts for Fearless T5 W2 3++ A3 S6 Rending "beast" models, are certainly going to win lots of games for people.
I really hope that they errata wraith to 1 wound, or T4 and say it was just a typo, otherwise I would make use of "my own" rule that doesnt need any permission by the other player, tournament organizer or GW: I just dont play a game with necron playes who field wraith. This rule also works for WS spam and al the other stupid sh.. that is so common in the tournament scene.
Overall, reading the leaks, it's hard to see where this was anything more than a substantial increase in power to an already strong army.
Some stuff is different, a couple things got nerfed (though nowhere near as hard as similarly complained about units in other books, they got kid-glove nerfs), most of the book got buffed, some unnecessarily so (wraiths, ghost arks), and the formations are exceedingly powerful, particularly with the all new "formations within formations" thing.
This book is going to be right up there with Eldar on the powerscale methinks, possibly even supplanting them. It can do CC great, it can do footslogging great, it can do mechanized great, and it can still do flyers pretty damn well too. The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase. IF you're a Necron player, it's hard to see where you're not going to be impressed with this book, at least in terms of gameplay. Unless you were super-married to the old Bargelords and built your entire army around Tesla+Jink.
The only thing it doesn't do is play in the psychic phase.
Gloom Prism now gives AW and the range went from 3" to 12".
That is quite an awesome buff
Adamantium Will is nice, but it doesn't help against the really bad Psyker stuff like Invisibility.
Nothing will help you when it comes to facing Invisibility. It's the single most broken thing to exist in 7th right now. It was a neat idea, as most things are with GW. But poorly executed...as most things are with GW.
Furyou Miko wrote: Obyron used to be a massive mobility boost to your army. :p
He has a once-per-game version of that. Not like anybody used it that constantly anyway. Even Pylonstar users used the teleportation only a couple of times in a game.
morgoth wrote: Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
Wraiths were undercosted back when they were T4 2W 3++.
Now, they make Riptides and 5th edition Vandettas look overpriced.
Exactly. With the 5 points raise, they should have stayed the same. Now they get T5, fleet, ignore Terrain and I5 on demand... cant believe it. But hey,see the positive things: All the Eldar Players can now share the hate with the necron players and nobody wont complain about Tau anymore xD
Furyou Miko wrote: Obyron used to be a massive mobility boost to your army. :p
He has a once-per-game version of that. Not like anybody used it that constantly anyway. Even Pylonstar users used the teleportation only a couple of times in a game.
He and my two VeilTeks were my entire army's mobilty quotient until now :p other tha the Beasts and jetbikes.
morgoth wrote: Then it's just a friggin awesome buff to a unit that was already very scary.
Doesn't that make them some sort of undercosted TWC defense wise ?
Wraiths were undercosted back when they were T4 2W 3++.
Now, they make Riptides and 5th edition Vandettas look overpriced.
This pretty much.
This entire release is looking like another major shift in GW design paradigm, having much more in common with the Eldar in terms of power level, and certainly surpassing them in special rules.
Lies! Nothing is vulnerable to bolters. Even things that LOOK vulnerable to bolters usually end up being cost effective against models armed with bolters, because 14 pts is a lot for a terrible gun.
So.... Tomb blades.....the better Immortals. Faster, better guns, ignore cover, jink and roughly the same price
Also for AA put tomb blades on a quad-gun apperently the ignore cover from the tomb blades works on all of their shooting.
With the changes to stalkers and Destroyers being in fast attack and heavy destroyers being in heavy I wanna do a Destroyer stalker gun line
2+ re-roll to hit re-roll 1 to wound destroyers/ heavy destroyers sounds fantastically funny with JSJ. Take that imperial Guard gun line!
I feel immortals are now the Cheap troop choice since warriors are 10 to a unit starting now but it looks like the Decursion is gonna be near auto-pick in high points games
Quickjager wrote: I keep telling myself that they won't be that bad, that I can handle them... then I remember a fething 3++....
Still vulnerable to large numbers of bolters.
Actually, maybe this is GW's answer to the question of "Why should I ever take heavy bolters?"
To overwhelm Wraiths with high volumes of S5 shooting.
You need...a lot of bolter or heavy bolter fire to take down T5 Wraiths.
To down a minimum sized squad of 3, you're looking at 72 BS3 Heavy Bolter shots, 81 BS4 Bolter shots, or 216 BS3 Lasgun shots....
Actually, if there is a surge of Wraiths, I'd consider messing around with DA's Banner of Devastation for an ungodly number of Bolter shots behind an ADL. That or a bunch of Noise Marines
morgoth wrote: 1. It's a nerf.
2. Necron deserved it.
3. Hurray !
4. I doubt they were nerfed enough though. I'll have to read that dex soon.
I think they got more buffed than nerfed. And the nerfs were things that were too powerful before anyway.
This ^
My brothers one happy camper and just laughed off the nerfs to his army while pointing out all the buffs..... to an army that hardly needed them to begin with.
Vaktathi wrote: It's not like Imperial Guard gunlines are particularly good...
Yeah but now they aren't the only ones who can do it and necrons can do it better?
If going max destroyers/H.Destroyers that's 12 Heavy destroyers (3 groups of 3 and 1 per FA destroyer unit) and 15 normal destroyers. Thirty 30"(with JSJ) 2+reroll to hit S5 ap3 reroll 1 to wound and twelve 42"(with JSJ) 2+reroll to hit S9 AP2 reroll 1 to wound shots with whatever the Stalkers bring is some serious fire power. 1575 before HQ and two troop min with 3 stalkers.
Once again not saying it's good...but it would be something to see. But it is worth noting that the Stalker + Destroyers/Heavy is pretty solid tactic wise
Vaktathi wrote: It's not like Imperial Guard gunlines are particularly good...
Yeah but now they aren't the only ones who can do it and necrons can do it better?
They haven't been the only ones for quite some time, and if Necrons are doing it better, sounds like a game design issue if a relatively versatile army is outgunning a gunline specialist army
Natalya wrote: It takes 160 bolter shots at bs4 or 110 heavy bolter shots at bs4 to drop a full unit of wraiths on average. thats assuming they dont have the 4+ rp.
I wouldnt say bolter spam is the way to go.
Not necessarily. 160 shots with the Banner of Devastation equates to 4 units (Salvo 2/4, 10 man squads). Throw in the Librarian Formation DA get and give all your Librarians Prescience and each of those squads now has TL Bolters. It's not competitive, but I think that would be a fun scenario to do
Natalya wrote: It takes 160 bolter shots at bs4 or 110 heavy bolter shots at bs4 to drop a full unit of wraiths on average. thats assuming they dont have the 4+ rp.
I wouldnt say bolter spam is the way to go.
Not necessarily. 160 shots with the Banner of Devastation equates to 4 units (Salvo 2/4, 10 man squads). Throw in the Librarian Formation DA get and give all your Librarians Prescience and each of those squads now has TL Bolters. It's not competitive, but I think that would be a fun scenario to do
soooooo while you sinking everything you got into killing those Wraiths , the rest of his army is killing you? lol
Natalya wrote: It takes 160 bolter shots at bs4 or 110 heavy bolter shots at bs4 to drop a full unit of wraiths on average. thats assuming they dont have the 4+ rp.
I wouldnt say bolter spam is the way to go.
Not necessarily. 160 shots with the Banner of Devastation equates to 4 units (Salvo 2/4, 10 man squads). Throw in the Librarian Formation DA get and give all your Librarians Prescience and each of those squads now has TL Bolters. It's not competitive, but I think that would be a fun scenario to do
soooooo while you sinking everything you got into killing those Wraiths , the rest of his army is killing you? lol
Probably. Like I said, it'd be fun. I never said it would work though
Sometimes it feels like I live in an entirely different world to everyone else. One where my bolters murder Nurgle Terminator squads through weight of fire and Retributors are useful...
Furyou Miko wrote: Sometimes it feels like I live in an entirely different world to everyone else. One where my bolters murder Nurgle Terminator squads through weight of fire and Retributors are useful...
In my world tactix and deployment matter and Magnus The Red goes fasta.
Personally I think the latest Cron book isn't too bad and the Decurion is powerful, but only if you have enough points to bring it enough toys without shooting yourself in the Foot.
Personally I'm looking forward to playing the Leviathan list instead as I rather like that list and it's flavor. I'm thinking for the army instead of Green energy I'm looking at Orange rods and things. I just haven't decided the best color to pair with that yet (I don't want to do blue because it's too cliche and doesn't fit a theme of "burning" well enough).
ClockworkZion wrote: Personally I think the latest Cron book isn't too bad and the Decurion is powerful, but only if you have enough points to bring it enough toys without shooting yourself in the Foot.
Personally I'm looking forward to playing the Leviathan list instead as I rather like that list and it's flavor. I'm thinking for the army instead of Green energy I'm looking at Orange rods and things. I just haven't decided the best color to pair with that yet (I don't want to do blue because it's too cliche and doesn't fit a theme of "burning" well enough).
Orange goes well with white or black, I feel that White Crons look a lot better than the rest though.
It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Have you ever tried pressing alt-F4? It's a Necron-Codex, that's it. You might not feel that it fits the Necrons, tough luck for you since this is what they get.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Is this because of the change to WBB? Or is there some other, deeper underlying cause to your statement?
So since you are older you are wiser and therefore your opinion on the new Codex is much more important?
There is nothing wise in spamming the same standard line in every thread.
Kangodo wrote: So since you are older you are wiser and therefore your opinion on the new Codex is much more important?
There is nothing wise in spamming the same standard line in every thread.
No, it's about me explicitely critcizing the codex and you, as usual, immediately resorting to ad hominem. That's the immature part. If you feel personally offended because of someone having (legit and well-reasonable, might I add) complaints about a codex, then you need to reconsider and reflect upon your behavior.
Hmm. I am sure I haven't seen those legit and well-reasonable complaints yet.
Though this is probably the fifth post I read of you that comes down to "They took away Necron flavour and this is for powergamers!"
So no wonder if people are offended when you are basically calling them powergamers.
We all know you worship the old-old Codices, but not everyone feels like that.
As a Necron player, from what I've been able to piece together it looks like an overall power buff, which I'm happy about overall.
My biggest gripe so far is about Crypteks:
(a) Crypteks look like they are going to be blandified, and fill the RP buff role that Lords used to fill. Leaving Lords to do what exactly? Guard the shelf?
(b) I'm a bit miffed because I had a plan and the bits to do up a large group of Crypteks for each Harbinger group. I was excited about the plan, had color schemes, bought the bits I need, but looks like I'm going to have to drop it. Hopefully, there will still be some vareity within Cryptek wargear options. I guess we'll see. Hopefully there'll be more to Crypteks than what I'm seeing in the rumors.
A second gripe is all the formations. You used to be able to unock the cool stuff just by purchasing a unit, possibly a piece of wargear. Now you have to purchase a group of units, and remember who's part of who and what's part of what. When you're 4 beers into a six pack, remembering which unit is part of which formation and therefore has that formation's special rule becomes mentally taxing. Maybe I'm just a dummy, or maybe I shouldn't drink beer when I play Also, the formations don't play with me on a fluff-level...but that is not Necron-specific.
(P.S. I don't know how you all stay on top of all these rumors. The applicable Rumors thread is like at page 150!)
But overall, I'm really pleased with the rumors and looking forward to the release so I can piece it altogether from one source.
(a) Crypteks look like they are going to be blandified, and fill the RP buff role that Lords used to fill. Leaving Lords to do what exactly? Guard the shelf?
(b) I'm a bit miffed because I had a plan and the bits to do up a large group of Crypteks for each Harbinger group. I was excited about the plan, had color schemes, bought the bits I need, but looks like I'm going to have to drop it. Hopefully, there will still be some vareity within Cryptek wargear options. I guess we'll see. Hopefully there'll be more to Crypteks than what I'm seeing in the rumors.
(a) Necron lords are still badass. I play Eldar and everytime I have to pick an HQ slot, I know I'm wasting points. Some Necron HQ choices are very obvious, like for example Mr. Destroyer Lord and his CrazyGood Wraith Buddies.
(b) I think they're just toning them down a bit from the "omgwtfbbq" stormtek days to something that makes sense. I don't think they lose in useful variety.
(a) Crypteks look like they are going to be blandified, and fill the RP buff role that Lords used to fill. Leaving Lords to do what exactly? Guard the shelf?
(b) I'm a bit miffed because I had a plan and the bits to do up a large group of Crypteks for each Harbinger group. I was excited about the plan, had color schemes, bought the bits I need, but looks like I'm going to have to drop it. Hopefully, there will still be some vareity within Cryptek wargear options. I guess we'll see. Hopefully there'll be more to Crypteks than what I'm seeing in the rumors.
(a) Necron lords are still badass. I play Eldar and everytime I have to pick an HQ slot, I know I'm wasting points. Some Necron HQ choices are very obvious, like for example Mr. Destroyer Lord and his CrazyGood Wraith Buddies.
(b) I think they're just toning them down a bit from the "omgwtfbbq" stormtek days to something that makes sense. I don't think they lose in useful variety.
(a) Can you expand on why Necron Lords are still badass? I never thought they were bad ass to begin with...just a vehicle to tack a Res Orb onto a unit. I'm not exactly sure how Res Orbs will work, but I keep seeing they will be one-use-only. And now Crypteks will be the ones to give your units a "permanent" +1 to RP. So in my mind, Crypteks just became Lords, and Lords just hit the shelf. I may be missing something here, I admit.
(b) I hope you're correct...the Cryptek's are supposed to hold the know-how for Necron techno-magic. If they become "1 Cryptek is just like any other Cryptek" (pretty much like Lords are now), I'll be pretty dissapointed.
(a) Can you expand on why Necron Lords are still badass? I never thought they were bad ass to begin with...just a vehicle to tack a Res Orb onto a unit. I'm not exactly sure how Res Orbs will work, but I keep seeing they will be one-use-only. And now Crypteks will be the ones to give your units a "permanent" +1 to RP. So in my mind, Crypteks just became Lords, and Lords just hit the shelf. I may be missing something here, I admit.
(b) I hope you're correct...the Cryptek's are supposed to hold the know-how for Necron techno-magic. If they become "1 Cryptek is just like any other Cryptek" (pretty much like Lords are now), I'll be pretty dissapointed.
(a) Well, just read the Eldar Codex. We don't have a single HQ that doesn't scream "I'm an HQ tax, forget about making *these* points back". S7AP2 is one crazy weapon, and with MindShackleScarabs it was just pure crazy Assault deterrent. I think you missed a lot of their potential. Res Orbs let you reroll all of your failed FnP-like RP during a single phase. That means that when your lord should be dying because he was charged by TWC, he'll be rolling 3++ to 4+ Rerollable FnP (which doesn't get cancelled by ID because it's called RP). It's more of a Mario Star type of ability that makes you temporarily near unkillable.
(b) Nope, you must have misread some rumors, or read the wrong ones or something, I saw a table with several different Crypteks and all that. (or maybe I read it wrong, who knows).
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Is this because of the change to WBB? Or is there some other, deeper underlying cause to your statement?
Sorry, didn't read your post before. Darn last posts on pages!
Iirc I made a longer post on this one. In short, it's:
- Removal of WBB mechanic: For a lot of players, it doesn't matter and a great many of Necron players started with the 5th codex anyway, thus never really got the hang of it. But there's a distinct difference between tossing models over and letting them "stand back up" instead of just rolling an extra dice. If, for example, 10 models lie down on the battlefield and then stand up at the end of the turn, then this not only is a good thing game-wise, it also perfectly connects rules and fluff as this is exactly what WBB would look like in the actual game. Even RP contained said mechanic to a lesser degree.
- Distinct melee focus: This is breaking with the entire Necron theme. Necrons are the least suited army for combat prowess and have always been compensated by special rules for it. The recent insane buff on melee doesn't make any sense and was clearly decided to make Necrons more well-rounded, thus catering to more players.
- Regeneration Orb: Necron Lords have been constructed to serve as power-conduits for regular Necrons. One-time use items just don't work that way.
- Blandness / Generic: The entirety of the codex has nothing "Necron" about it. It could easily be any SM codex with FNP stuff etc. thrown around.
- Models: Necron Lords posing like humans...ugh. We already had vehicles with drivers, but it's seemingly getting worse. The new Necron Lord model features a very dynamic and "Come at me bro!" pose that neither fits Necrons, nor does it do anything good to make the codex look less generic.
- Low effort: As usual, I point to the 3rd codex. It was nigh-perfect. Perfect connection between fluff and rules. It was a codex that actually took some effort and people thinking twice before putting something in. It was terrible, terrible, terrible for the longest time, but I'd rather take a weak, but perfectly written codex over a poorly written, clearly PG-aimed codex. But alas, that was back when GW still knew what they were doing or, rather, cared for the game at all.
(a) Can you expand on why Necron Lords are still badass? I never thought they were bad ass to begin with...just a vehicle to tack a Res Orb onto a unit. I'm not exactly sure how Res Orbs will work, but I keep seeing they will be one-use-only. And now Crypteks will be the ones to give your units a "permanent" +1 to RP. So in my mind, Crypteks just became Lords, and Lords just hit the shelf. I may be missing something here, I admit.
(b) I hope you're correct...the Cryptek's are supposed to hold the know-how for Necron techno-magic. If they become "1 Cryptek is just like any other Cryptek" (pretty much like Lords are now), I'll be pretty dissapointed.
(a) Well, just read the Eldar Codex. We don't have a single HQ that doesn't scream "I'm an HQ tax, forget about making *these* points back". S7AP2 is one crazy weapon, and with MindShackleScarabs it was just pure crazy Assault deterrent. I think you missed a lot of their potential. Res Orbs let you reroll all of your failed FnP-like RP during a single phase. That means that when your lord should be dying because he was charged by TWC, he'll be rolling 3++ to 4+ Rerollable FnP (which doesn't get cancelled by ID because it's called RP). It's more of a Mario Star type of ability that makes you temporarily near unkillable.
(b) Nope, you must have misread some rumors, or read the wrong ones or something, I saw a table with several different Crypteks and all that. (or maybe I read it wrong, who knows).
I guess I'm too far behind the power curve on Necron rumors to comment more on (a), however Necron Lords were never really an "pure" HQ option (with 5th). To unlock them, you'd have to have an Overlord with the 5th Edition codex. I don't know whether regular Lords (vs. Overlords) will now be able to be your only HQ option. I guess I just don't know enough to draw meaningful conclusions here.
As for (b) I'm certainly glad you've seen evidence of continuing variety amongst Crypteks...that was one of my potential big letdowns.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Given that from a competitive point of view it's probably worse than the old codex, how is it written for powergamers?
I guess I'm too far behind the power curve on Necron rumors to comment more on (a), however Necron Lords were never really an "pure" HQ option (with 5th). To unlock them, you'd have to have an Overlord with the 5th Edition codex. I don't know whether regular Lords (vs. Overlords) will now be able to be your only HQ option. I guess I just don't know enough to draw meaningful conclusions here.
As for (b) I'm certainly glad you've seen evidence of continuing variety amongst Crypteks...that was one of my potential big letdowns.
My bad, I was thinking about Overlords, I had no idea Necrons even had Lords, because nobody ever took them
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Given that from a competitive point of view it's probably worse than the old codex, how is it written for powergamers?
That may not be the case.
The worst offenders have been nerfed, but there have been a large number of improvements so it might result in something just as good - I hope it's a straight nerf to about the same power level as others v7 codexes though.
We really don't need GW to feth up any codexes right now, especially not one that has been fethed up for ages.
Sorry, didn't read your post before. Darn last posts on pages!
Iirc I made a longer post on this one. In short, it's:
- Removal of WBB mechanic: For a lot of players, it doesn't matter and a great many of Necron players started with the 5th codex anyway, thus never really got the hang of it. But there's a distinct difference between tossing models over and letting them "stand back up" instead of just rolling an extra dice. If, for example, 10 models lie down on the battlefield and then stand up at the end of the turn, then this not only is a good thing game-wise, it also perfectly connects rules and fluff as this is exactly what WBB would look like in the actual game. Even RP contained said mechanic to a lesser degree.
- Distinct melee focus: This is breaking with the entire Necron theme. Necrons are the least suited army for combat prowess and have always been compensated by special rules for it. The recent insane buff on melee doesn't make any sense and was clearly decided to make Necrons more well-rounded, thus catering to more players.
- Regeneration Orb: Necron Lords have been constructed to serve as power-conduits for regular Necrons. One-time use items just don't work that way.
- Blandness / Generic: The entirety of the codex has nothing "Necron" about it. It could easily be any SM codex with FNP stuff etc. thrown around.
- Models: Necron Lords posing like humans...ugh. We already had vehicles with drivers, but it's seemingly getting worse. The new Necron Lord model features a very dynamic and "Come at me bro!" pose that neither fits Necrons, nor does it do anything good to make the codex look less generic.
- Low effort: As usual, I point to the 3rd codex. It was nigh-perfect. Perfect connection between fluff and rules. It was a codex that actually took some effort and people thinking twice before putting something in. It was terrible, terrible, terrible for the longest time, but I'd rather take a weak, but perfectly written codex over a poorly written, clearly PG-aimed codex. But alas, that was back when GW still knew what they were doing or, rather, cared for the game at all.
This sums up my feelings, too.
Necrons seem like a strong army, but they now bear little resemblance to the army I got into in 3rd.
I guess I'm too far behind the power curve on Necron rumors to comment more on (a), however Necron Lords were never really an "pure" HQ option (with 5th). To unlock them, you'd have to have an Overlord with the 5th Edition codex. I don't know whether regular Lords (vs. Overlords) will now be able to be your only HQ option. I guess I just don't know enough to draw meaningful conclusions here.
As for (b) I'm certainly glad you've seen evidence of continuing variety amongst Crypteks...that was one of my potential big letdowns.
My bad, I was thinking about Overlords, I had no idea Necrons even had Lords, because nobody ever took them
No problem. I was wondering... Since Lords only had 1 Wound, the way I played Necrons it was never good to invest further in one with expensive wargear like Warscythes and MSS. I just took them Vanilla + a Res Orb, and used them as a way to improve a units RP by way of the Res Orb. Now that Crypteks are rumored to have a "built-in" +1 to RP, I'm struggling to find any decent use for the Necron Lord. Who knows...maybe they will get some goodie(s) to make them worthwhile, but a "one-use-only" Res Orb that allows you to reroll RP one time isn't really doing it for me. When I see "One Use Only", I think "don't rely on this for anything". Tachyon Arrow comes to mind here.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Given that from a competitive point of view it's probably worse than the old codex, how is it written for powergamers?
Wraith-wing was a popular and effective tournament build and it just got way better. It will appeal to the waac gamer as it doesn't require a lot of models either.
Did anyone notice that Gauss now auto-wounds on a 6 regardless of Toughness (in addition to auto-glancing vehicles on a 6).
This seems odd...why? I don't have my To Wound chart in front of me, but is there a Toughness that S4 wouldn't wound on a 6? I know LOTR has some Toughnesses that low strength weapons wound on a 6 followed by a 4+, but I don't remember ever seeing that happen in any 40k game.
jasper76 wrote: Did anyone notice that Gauss now auto-wounds on a 6 regardless of Toughness (in addition to ).
This seems odd...why? I don't have my To Wound chart in front of me, but is there a Toughness that S4 wouldn't wound on a 6? I know LOTR has some Toughnesses that low strength weapons wound on a 6 followed by a 4+, but I don't remember ever seeing that happen in any 40k game.
T8 and higher. In 40k any toughness value that is 4 or more points higher than strength cannot wound. In fantasy (as of 8th edition) 6 always wounds.
jasper76 wrote: Did anyone notice that Gauss now auto-wounds on a 6 regardless of Toughness (in addition to ).
This seems odd...why? I don't have my To Wound chart in front of me, but is there a Toughness that S4 wouldn't wound on a 6? I know LOTR has some Toughnesses that low strength weapons wound on a 6 followed by a 4+, but I don't remember ever seeing that happen in any 40k game.
T8 and higher. In 40k any toughness value that is 4 or more points higher than strength cannot wound. In fantasy (as of 8th edition) 6 always wounds.
Despite the fact that MSS got the deff rolla / cybork body treatment, overall it sure sounds like there's some neat stuff on the way.
Gauss auto-wounding on a 6, in addition to glancing, isn't bad (not OP eldar mini-rending, but still good).
Warlord traits seem decent - EW and relentless bubble stand out especially.
Tesla is still great. Snap shot nerf is both expected and reasonable.
T5 2W wraiths is insane. Did they go up in points at least? By, like, a lot? If not, I'm sure there'll be much (justifiable) QQing from nid players in regards to warriors.
Scarabs still seem good too, and much simplified.
Gotta say, though, I'm a bit confused on their force org chart.
Did anything happen to monoliths? Neat model, love to see more around, but currently a bit expensive for a half-range battle cannon and little else.
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
I have a huge ork army and I can't justify pulling it out and playing. Mob rule is a horrible rule. They made an assault army, in a shooting edition kill itself in an assault.
I can't think of anything good about the ork codex, it's only fun if you play certain formations but even then you're Gimping yourself
I still love my orks, and play them plenty, but they are TERRIBLE. Mob rule is nearly unworkable.
Thanks GW for making an assault army with LD7 with no protection from fear tests! And also thanks for the free assault grenades to preserve our I2, but shootas cost extra! And thanks for no close combat invluns for anyone but a shooting HQ, and almost useless KFFs!
But this is a necron thread, I'll stop complaining now. Though I could go on and on and on.
Well, I don't know anything about the new necrons, but here is a story about necrons.
One day, my friend bought a box of necrons, but then returned it because there was very little to be done with it.
The necron backstory is really good, but the models are not.
just thought you should know.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
Given that from a competitive point of view it's probably worse than the old codex, how is it written for powergamers?
My bad, bad word usuage. By "powergamers" I did not intend to refer to WAAC players, I wanted to refer to players who mainly care about an army's relative "power" in comparison to other armies. Hope that clears things up a bit.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: Well, I don't know anything about the new necrons, but here is a story about necrons.
One day, my friend bought a box of necrons, but then returned it because there was very little to be done with it.
The necron backstory is really good, but the models are not.
just thought you should know.
On the other hand, I got into 40k in general because I liked (many of) the Necron models. The backstory in the 5th edition codex never did much for me, and I'm certain to this day I haven't read through all of the fluff therein. I never had the codex previous (3rd Edition??) to that to compare it to, but I like the idea of a whole lot of The Terminator with a little bit of Pharoah-pimp stuff thrown in, moreso than a whole lot of Pharoah-pimp stuff with a little bit of The Terminator thrown in.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: Well, I don't know anything about the new necrons, but here is a story about necrons.
One day, my friend bought a box of necrons, but then returned it because there was very little to be done with it.
The necron backstory is really good, but the models are not.
just thought you should know.
I have Necron conversions coming out of my ears. I find them to be very flexible for chopping and recombining parts.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: Well, I don't know anything about the new necrons, but here is a story about necrons.
One day, my friend bought a box of necrons, but then returned it because there was very little to be done with it.
The necron backstory is really good, but the models are not.
just thought you should know.
I have Necron conversions coming out of my ears. I find them to be very flexible for chopping and recombining parts.
Indeed. Really, you can use Warrior torsos/legs for the basis of any Necron unit that stands on 2 legs and looks like a robot.
T5 2W wraiths is insane. Did they go up in points at least? By, like, a lot? If not, I'm sure there'll be much (justifiable) QQing from nid players in regards to warriors.
Yea....I'm not gonna lie after reading that they got a toughness boost AND added beast to the profile.....oh and can have access to RP now for a measly what 5 ppm bump?. I just kinda looked at my warriors and asked guys what the just happened? also to a lesser degree my terminators.....
what blows my mind about that even more is it was a serious amount of buffs to a unit that even Necron players admit didn't need it? I would just love to ask the writer of this book their logic for that. Considering they may have just buffed them into wave serpent levels of power and its not taking anyone long to see it.
Overall some things took some nerfs but they were things that were obvious to nerf (MSS, Trans Ctan, etc) but overall they buffed the majority of the codex. However with first looks the internal balance still seems to be way off on this one, I see way to many auto includes already and still many things you likely dont want to take.
Sigvatr wrote:- Removal of WBB mechanic: For a lot of players, it doesn't matter and a great many of Necron players started with the 5th codex anyway, thus never really got the hang of it. But there's a distinct difference between tossing models over and letting them "stand back up" instead of just rolling an extra dice. If, for example, 10 models lie down on the battlefield and then stand up at the end of the turn, then this not only is a good thing game-wise, it also perfectly connects rules and fluff as this is exactly what WBB would look like in the actual game. Even RP contained said mechanic to a lesser degree.
I do feel you on this one. My "Resurrection Protocol markers" always looked suspiciously like Necrons placed on their side. It was our greatest fear leading up to the 5th edition codex that WBB would be nerfed to FnP... and now it's actually happened. :(
- Distinct melee focus: This is breaking with the entire Necron theme. Necrons are the least suited army for combat prowess and have always been compensated by special rules for it. The recent insane buff on melee doesn't make any sense and was clearly decided to make Necrons more well-rounded, thus catering to more players.
Necrons themselves didn't get any more fighty, did they? Historically our melee units have always been robots, although the Lychguard did start to change that... I hardly think making Lychguard somewhat good at their jobs destroys the feel of the army.
- Regeneration Orb: Necron Lords have been constructed to serve as power-conduits for regular Necrons. One-time use items just don't work that way.
Hate trying to spell Resurrection too, huh? Thing is, Lords aren't Res Orbs. If Lords were designed to work like you suggest, they wouldn't need to be equipped with Res Orbs.
- Blandness / Generic: The entirety of the codex has nothing "Necron" about it. It could easily be any SM codex with FNP stuff etc. thrown around.
I disagree. We still have Gauss. We still have Silver Tide. We still have ridiculously big guns on ridiculously small skimmer chassis. We still have Scarabs, even if they are now worse than they were in the third edition codex. There's even the Monolith for you new-age types.
- Models: Necron Lords posing like humans...ugh. We already had vehicles with drivers, but it's seemingly getting worse. The new Necron Lord model features a very dynamic and "Come at me bro!" pose that neither fits Necrons, nor does it do anything good to make the codex look less generic.
I saw it more as 'standing on a hill surveying the battlefield', but to each their own.
jasper76 wrote:Did anyone notice that Gauss now auto-wounds on a 6 regardless of Toughness (in addition to auto-glancing vehicles on a 6).
This seems odd...why? I don't have my To Wound chart in front of me, but is there a Toughness that S4 wouldn't wound on a 6? I know LOTR has some Toughnesses that low strength weapons wound on a 6 followed by a 4+, but I don't remember ever seeing that happen in any 40k game.
Well, in the 3e codex, this is what Gauss did - wound anything, glance anything, as long as you roll the relevant 6. Why they lost the wound anything part for the 5e codex... well, I always put it down to a copy-paste error.
Sigvatr wrote:Forgot problem #1: no more green rods
Pah! You younglings. When I started Necrons, we had to figure out OSL on our own to make our guns look glowy! You've been spoilt, all this time when you can just shine an LED on it!
T5 2W wraiths is insane. Did they go up in points at least? By, like, a lot? If not, I'm sure there'll be much (justifiable) QQing from nid players in regards to warriors.
Yea....I'm not gonna lie after reading that they got a toughness boost AND added beast to the profile.....oh and can have access to RP now for a measly what 5 ppm bump?. I just kinda looked at my warriors and asked guys what the just happened? also to a lesser degree my terminators.....
what blows my mind about that even more is it was a serious amount of buffs to a unit that even Necron players admit didn't need it? I would just love to ask the writer of this book their logic for that. Considering they may have just buffed them into wave serpent levels of power and its not taking anyone long to see it.
Overall some things took some nerfs but they were things that were obvious to nerf (MSS, Trans Ctan, etc) but overall they buffed the majority of the codex. However with first looks the internal balance still seems to be way off on this one, I see way to many auto includes already and still many things you likely dont want to take.
I actually have to respectfully disagree about the auto-includes. Wraiths, sure, if you wanna be "that guy". But honestly, I've found more synergy in this book than the last. A D-lord and a Veil of Darkness Cryptek Deep Striking with Flayed Ones, then popping the solar staff so they're invisible a turn? Then charging and annihilating pretty much anything? Or Lychguard deathstars being a thing. Or Tomb Blades being awesomely cheap and effective now. Destroyers, I've looked, might not be quite ppm effective at killing vehicles like Immortals, but would be fun to play because of Jet Packs. Triarch Praetorians are usuable, as we have little AP2 shooting, and now they're 12" and not unwieldy in CC. Doomsday Arks are devastating now. Doom Scythes are still good. Deathmarks got a slight nerf, but got cheaper, and one of their useless rules now has a good and fluffy use. Immortals and Warriors are still good. Most named HQs (Except like, Obyron), got cheaper and still have a use, whether it be buffing (Wow, Necrons with a buffing unit? And multiple of them? Whoa), or bringing some decent power. Hell, I take back what I said. Ctans might be unreliable, but they'd be fun to play at least, and the Nightbringer would be nigh unstoppable against some armies.
All in all, I agree with the lack of flavor in this book, but it has been brought in line with the power level of 7th, maybe even a tad higher. And you have a lot of options to play what you want, and mix together units and wargear to get cool things. Like, as I said, Invisible DSing Flayed Ones that reroll scatter, have Preferred Enemy, a 5+ Invuln against shooting, and a 4+ FNP, backed up by a D-lord. I mean, come on....
The worst offenders have been nerfed, but there have been a large number of improvements so it might result in something just as good - I hope it's a straight nerf to about the same power level as others v7 codexes though.
We really don't need GW to feth up any codexes right now, especially not one that has been fethed up for ages.
Man, I hope you start a thread when the 7th ed. Eldar book comes out. =D
Is there any codex which will be as interesting to recieve as the 7th edition codex eldar? I can see it being 'walk away from the table' time for a whole bunch of people, which ever way the book drops.
The necron codex seems fine, Wraith being buffed is probably the best thing, everything else was expected, I don't even see the maxed out army slots of 18 of those new wraith in an army being on par with the cheese some armies can do. We got away with a new codex without being made into orks. Necron players should be happy.
I like orks, but they are rubbish.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
I can't believe no one's pointed out the irony of this statement yet.
RP is not just a FNP, its a lot better in fact. being that it can be buffed to a 4+ and also an ability to re-roll 1 time or can also gain re-rolls of 1's and can be used against instant death. FNP can't do any of those
I'm definitely excited, but I also have a special place in my heart for wraiths. The C'tan is disappointing though. Random powers is stupid but I feel like they're closely grouped up enough that you won't often be too sad with any given roll. The burning conclave is definitely worth trying out though. So much t8 (because you're bringing the God Shackle obv). Barges are still good, but I'm going to give the Canoptek harvest a chance (I think spyders are pretty solid on their own, and getting a 3+ then a 4+ at t6 is pretty silly for 50 points. If they weren't WS 3 with only 2 attacks AND SO FREAKING SLOW they would be pretty solid on their own merits.
Sigvatr wrote: It's a soulless codex. Nothing to do with Necrons anymore, just written for powergamers and the rules could be easily applied to any random Space Marine army.
I thought Necrons were powerful soulless killing machines reaping the enemies souls to fill their void inside.
What's your guys opinion on the nightbringers special ability, does it have to target the same unit as his c'tan power? Reading sounds ambiguous but the only models I know that are allowed to target multiple units are those with split shot.
Punisher wrote: What's your guys opinion on the nightbringers special ability, does it have to target the same unit as his c'tan power? Reading sounds ambiguous but the only models I know that are allowed to target multiple units are those with split shot.
After giving it some careful consideration, the Nightbringer, against certain armies, could be devastating. Still don't care for random powers though...
To answer your question, I'm not entirely sure. I've heard you can, and I've heard you can't. It depends on how the wording is on the Powers of the Ctan rule. It would be cool, however, that he'd be able to.
Punisher wrote: What's your guys opinion on the nightbringers special ability, does it have to target the same unit as his c'tan power? Reading sounds ambiguous but the only models I know that are allowed to target multiple units are those with split shot.
I don't understand why people are saying that the c'tan got nerfed/ are worse. They cost roughly the same as the old but come with powers that now at least have a chance to deal with anything and have special powers aside from their shooting.
As for the Nightbringer I saw that too and now wanna run a bash brothers list with the night bringer and deceiver. Not sure if I wanna go with the cryptek formations or not from SOB:Ex and if i do what to kit the teks with.
Punisher wrote: What's your guys opinion on the nightbringers special ability, does it have to target the same unit as his c'tan power? Reading sounds ambiguous but the only models I know that are allowed to target multiple units are those with split shot.
I don't understand why people are saying that the c'tan got nerfed/ are worse. They cost roughly the same as the old but come with powers that now at least have a chance to deal with anything and have special powers aside from their shooting.
As for the Nightbringer I saw that too and now wanna run a bash brothers list with the night bringer and deceiver. Not sure if I wanna go with the cryptek formations or not from SOB:Ex and if i do what to kit the teks with.
What to kit the Teks with? You ask like there are options now. >.>
Also, it didn't get nerfed, it got better, and overall slightly cheaper and got a good amount of flavor added to them. My personal gripe is the random power bull crap. I can't imagine shooting at a Landraider or shooting at a group of Boyz and getting the power I want....
Melevolence wrote: The doom and gloom is real. Always, always is with new codecies. Everyone is being brought into line with the other books. Crazy powerful stuff for the most part is being neutered. I don't play Crons, but I have been pleasantly surprised with what I've hear has gotten buffed up, and only nodded in agreement with the vast majority of what got nerfed.
A lot of people ripped on the Ork book, but now that it has had proper field testing, I hear 80% less of people complaining and legit loving their codex.
I hear 80% less complaining because everyone I know who played orks quit the game >.>
I have a huge ork army and I can't justify pulling it out and playing. Mob rule is a horrible rule. They made an assault army, in a shooting edition kill itself in an assault.
I can't think of anything good about the ork codex, it's only fun if you play certain formations but even then you're Gimping yourself
lol.
Ever tried all boyz with trukkz ?
The only thing that sucks with Orkz is trying to play them as some wussy elite army with a single CAD at 1850 points.
It's not Orky, it doesn't fit the fluff and it doesn't work in game.
Sigvatr wrote:- Removal of WBB mechanic: For a lot of players, it doesn't matter and a great many of Necron players started with the 5th codex anyway, thus never really got the hang of it. But there's a distinct difference between tossing models over and letting them "stand back up" instead of just rolling an extra dice. If, for example, 10 models lie down on the battlefield and then stand up at the end of the turn, then this not only is a good thing game-wise, it also perfectly connects rules and fluff as this is exactly what WBB would look like in the actual game. Even RP contained said mechanic to a lesser degree.
I do feel you on this one. My "Resurrection Protocol markers" always looked suspiciously like Necrons placed on their side. It was our greatest fear leading up to the 5th edition codex that WBB would be nerfed to FnP... and now it's actually happened. :(
It's an upgrade that simplifies game rules, why would you hate on it ?
The worst offenders have been nerfed, but there have been a large number of improvements so it might result in something just as good - I hope it's a straight nerf to about the same power level as others v7 codexes though.
We really don't need GW to feth up any codexes right now, especially not one that has been fethed up for ages.
Man, I hope you start a thread when the 7th ed. Eldar book comes out. =D
The more i read about Wraiths the more afraid I am that they might make it even more powerful.
I just hope most people are wrong and the new Necron dex is weaker as it should be, and that Tau and Eldar are going to follow in that same line of thought.
The more i read about Wraiths the more afraid I am that they might make it even more powerful.
I just hope most people are wrong and the new Necron dex is weaker as it should be, and that Tau and Eldar are going to follow in that same line of thought.
I mean, all in all the Wraiths got a bit more fluffy, and reverted more-so back to the 3rd edition book. Them being beasts makes sense to me. So, can't really complain.
The big thing is that Necrons have been brought into line with Eldar and Tau, not only on power level, but only being a strong army by those who combine models and rules and use synergy. Necrons never truely had that before, imho. The new dex will probably be really strong, just not in an obviously OP manner. It'll take more than A barges and night Scythes to bring home a victory.
The more i read about Wraiths the more afraid I am that they might make it even more powerful.
I just hope most people are wrong and the new Necron dex is weaker as it should be, and that Tau and Eldar are going to follow in that same line of thought.
I mean, all in all the Wraiths got a bit more fluffy, and reverted more-so back to the 3rd edition book. Them being beasts makes sense to me. So, can't really complain.
The big thing is that Necrons have been brought into line with Eldar and Tau, not only on power level, but only being a strong army by those who combine models and rules and use synergy. Necrons never truely had that before, imho. The new dex will probably be really strong, just not in an obviously OP manner. It'll take more than A barges and night Scythes to bring home a victory.
The big thing is that Necrons were ALREADY in line with Eldar and Tau in terms of power level. In case you haven't noticed they were in the top 3 for years and dealing at 50% against Eldar and Tau.
That's where them being buffed could be a big problem.
And the new dex may not take more than Wraiths and something else to bring home a victory.
Hahaha, classic Morgoth.
Necrons were 5th at best, way lower than Eldar (and Tau in 6th).
ToF had their overall winchance at 55%, hardly something I would call overpowered when other armies are at 65-70%
Melee-only isn't going to win you the game in 7th Edition, they needed AB/NS-support and that has been nerfed in points.
'I am upset that resurrection protocols got better, the wraith cheese got cheesier, and, with the exception of tesla, everything got better.'
Gimme a break. The only thing you lost was the stupid haywire crypteks and the ability to jink and shoot almost as effectively as not jinking.if you were an old(er)con player, you should be happy that your flayed ones and destroyers you've had sitting in a box for years are not a gimp inclusion.
Are flayed ones fast attack? If so, the only thing they suffer from is not being wraiths. If they are elites, they are better anti horde than lychguard and praetorians, as far as I can tell.
I'm disappointed at the fact that neither the Monolith or the Obelisk have any sort of deep strike mishap protection.
I wonder how the Obelisk (Super Heavy) handles a 1 on the mishap table. While it would be destroyed the Super Heavy rules say it only takes some hull points off for anything that "destroys" it... So where would it end up landing?
Also the Canoptek Harvest formation having "Move through cover" is a bit pointless as everything in the formation is either a beast or MC....
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Crazyterran wrote: 'Are flayed ones fast attack? If so, the only thing they suffer from is not being wraiths. If they are elites, they are better anti horde than lychguard and praetorians, as far as I can tell.
Crazyterran wrote: 'I am upset that resurrection protocols got better, the wraith cheese got cheesier, and, with the exception of tesla, everything got better.'
Yes. Yes I am.
Gimme a break. The only thing you lost was the stupid haywire crypteks and the ability to jink and shoot almost as effectively as not jinking.
And teleportation spam. We definitely lost that.
if you were an old(er)con player, you should be happy that your flayed ones and destroyers you've had sitting in a box for years are not a gimp inclusion.
Are flayed ones fast attack? If so, the only thing they suffer from is not being wraiths. If they are elites, they are better anti horde than lychguard and praetorians, as far as I can tell.
Elites. Models are still gak though, and my Destroyers can't be used as Destroyers any more since they're clearly Jetbikes, thank you very much.
Also, to whoever said the 2e 'crons were ugly? You are a filthy heretic and are no longer allowed an opinion. 2e crons. Best crons.
Crazyterran wrote: 'I am upset that resurrection protocols got better, the wraith cheese got cheesier, and, with the exception of tesla, everything got better.'
Yes. Yes I am.
Gimme a break. The only thing you lost was the stupid haywire crypteks and the ability to jink and shoot almost as effectively as not jinking.
And teleportation spam. We definitely lost that.
if you were an old(er)con player, you should be happy that your flayed ones and destroyers you've had sitting in a box for years are not a gimp inclusion.
Are flayed ones fast attack? If so, the only thing they suffer from is not being wraiths. If they are elites, they are better anti horde than lychguard and praetorians, as far as I can tell.
Elites. Models are still gak though, and my Destroyers can't be used as Destroyers any more since they're clearly Jetbikes, thank you very much.
Also, to whoever said the 2e 'crons were ugly? You are a filthy heretic and are no longer allowed an opinion. 2e crons. Best crons.
If by teleportation spam you mean night scythes and invasion beam spam, then, uh, balancing? I'm pretty sure it's what carried the codex through the later parts of 6th with wraiths and barges.
vipoid wrote: Did you know that a strawman is made of straw?
The op's argument is about the fluff being 'dead' and the flavour being 'gone'.
If he's a fan of the original necron fluff, the I to been dead since the 5th Ed book came out. If the flavour being gone is the argument, it is stil there, as resurrection protocol now has them repairing the damage as they steadily March forwards, rather than them dying and coming back.
seeing as he claimed to be an oldcorn player, he should be happy that all of the original units, such as destroyers and flayed ones, now have better rules. Rules that better reflect the fluff, especially for flayed ones. He can always continue to play his army as a tomb that is controlled by a particularly powerful shard, thus making them soulless robots.
Gameplay wise I don't see what necrons have to complain about. Other than wraiths being too good thus making other fast attack choices bad. And even then, they should be complaining in an ironic matter!
krodarklorr wrote: Seriously, do you guys really like all of the supposed leaks for the new Necron book? At first they were okay, but honestly, the more pieces get added to the puzzle, the more I'm thinking of packing up 40k for good.
Apparently you aren't actually looking at the pictures that have been posted directly from the codex, only a couple of things have changed. The only real nerf was the transcendant c'tan and a few other things. Beyond that they stayed more or less the same. People acted the same way over the Tyranid codex and you know what? They are way better than what they were in their fifth ed codex. Same can be said about IG.
krodarklorr wrote: Seriously, do you guys really like all of the supposed leaks for the new Necron book? At first they were okay, but honestly, the more pieces get added to the puzzle, the more I'm thinking of packing up 40k for good.
Apparently you aren't actually looking at the pictures that have been posted directly from the codex, only a couple of things have changed. The only real nerf was the transcendant c'tan and a few other things. Beyond that they stayed more or less the same. People acted the same way over the Tyranid codex and you know what? They are way better than what they were in their fifth ed codex. Same can be said about IG.
I haven't seen a screenshot of the monolith yet, but I've heard they did nothing to make it useable. Thats also disappointing.
Melevolence wrote: Will one unit make the new dex, in the eyes of the majority, 'unbalanced'.
Riptides
I can win games without a riptide. I don't even own a normal riptide. However I did recently get the XV109 Y'VARAH because it looks awesome and its rules look awesome, and fairly priced at 230 points. (It didn't do well in my play testing though)
Don't know if this has been mentioned as well but Wraiths are also now beasts which means they are even faster moving across the table, being able to go 12 inches a turn and still avoid terrain? That is scary for any army that relies on shooting.
Also the above post, whoever thinks the Riptide is over powered needs to get there gameplay straight. There's plenty of the game that can handle Riptides reliably.
gmaleron wrote: Don't know if this has been mentioned as well but Wraiths are also now beasts which means they are even faster moving across the table, being able to go 12 inches a turn and still avoid terrain? That is scary for any army that relies on shooting.
They could do that before with Wraithfight and jump packs.
However, now they can fleet their charge... ummmm.
gmaleron wrote: Don't know if this has been mentioned as well but Wraiths are also now beasts which means they are even faster moving across the table, being able to go 12 inches a turn and still avoid terrain? That is scary for any army that relies on shooting.
Also the above post, whoever thinks the Riptide is over powered needs to get there gameplay straight. There's plenty of the game that can handle Riptides reliably.
The problem is that there's a lot of the game that can't, particularly in multiples.
Since the Tau codex came out, the biggest telling fact about it to me is that I have yet to see a single Tau army, even like 750/1000pt armies, that *don't* have at least one and I certainly can't think of a Tau army I've seen or read about at a Tournament that didn't have at least one (more usually two). When there's that sort of ubiquity, it's an indication something is wrong.
That's sort of the problem with 40k in general really. You can take anything and say "well there's X, Y, and Z that can deal with this perfectly", but then many armies don't have access to those or only have access to Z, but in taking Z they give up critical capability A to deal with other broken unit B in army C.
Yeah, Riptides, Wave Serpents, Wraightknights, Wraiths, FMC's, and Knights all have counters. Trying to fit them all in one list, particularly to deal with multiples of each, is impossible and leads to a greater and greater number of games that are one-sided curbstomps.
Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
Also, to whoever said the 2e 'crons were ugly? You are a filthy heretic and are no longer allowed an opinion. 2e crons. Best crons.
Damn straight! 90% of my Necron collection is 2E Necrons. I can field a full 100+ phalanx of just metal Warriors.
Vaktathi wrote: Since the Tau codex came out, the biggest telling fact about it to me is that I have yet to see a single Tau army, even like 750/1000pt armies, that *don't* have at least one and I certainly can't think of a Tau army I've seen or read about at a Tournament that didn't have at least one (more usually two). When there's that sort of ubiquity, it's an indication something is wrong.
Not always. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, as you do have a solid point, but if I had a Tau army, I would have a Riptide in it. Not because it has great rules, but because I think it looks cool and make for a great centerpiece. But, I admit, I may be the exception rather than the rule.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
If you play for a laugh, every single game ever conceived out there will do, no matter how atrocious its rules are.
In fact, "if you X for a laugh" can be used as an excuse for basically everything.
- Wow, you spent 30€ in this atrocious miscast monopose miniature?
- Doesn't matter, I paint for a laugh.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
If you play for a laugh, every single game ever conceived out there will do, no matter how atrocious its rules are.
In fact, "if you X for a laugh" can be used as an excuse for basically everything.
- Wow, you spent 30€ in this atrocious miscast monopose miniature?
- Doesn't matter, I paint for a laugh.
Oh good to know. I murder people and oppress minorities for a laugh. /s You can't "x for a laugh".
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
If you play for a laugh, every single game ever conceived out there will do, no matter how atrocious its rules are.
In fact, "if you X for a laugh" can be used as an excuse for basically everything.
- Wow, you spent 30€ in this atrocious miscast monopose miniature?
- Doesn't matter, I paint for a laugh.
Oh good to know. I murder people and oppress minorities for a laugh. /s You can't "x for a laugh".
There is a movie called Smiley that is exactly that.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
If you play for a laugh, every single game ever conceived out there will do, no matter how atrocious its rules are.
In fact, "if you X for a laugh" can be used as an excuse for basically everything.
- Wow, you spent 30€ in this atrocious miscast monopose miniature?
- Doesn't matter, I paint for a laugh.
Oh good to know. I murder people and oppress minorities for a laugh. /s You can't "x for a laugh".
There is a movie called Smiley that is exactly that.
"Movie". Try that in real life and get back to me.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Not if you play for a laugh, Vaktathi. I played a 750 point game yesterday where I basically just spammed vets with little good equipment (carapace) with 2 chimeras for the ones I gave three flamers to 4 de lolz, against am ultrasmurf army with three centurions, a whirlwind and calgar+honour guard. I lost, due to me not having any ap2 except one lazcannon, but we had a laugh, and I didn't mind getting my arse handed to me by a wacky list.
This illustrates the problem with play to win, not 40k. If you focus too much on "I have to counter everything in the meta, mustn't lose any games" then the whole experience becomes worthless. If you turn up with 50 guardsmen and a few vehicles, looking for a laugh and a huge dead pile, you're gonna' enjoy it a lot more.
If you play for a laugh, every single game ever conceived out there will do, no matter how atrocious its rules are.
In fact, "if you X for a laugh" can be used as an excuse for basically everything.
- Wow, you spent 30€ in this atrocious miscast monopose miniature? - Doesn't matter, I paint for a laugh.
Oh good to know. I murder people and oppress minorities for a laugh. /s You can't "x for a laugh".
Well, that escalated quickly.
Might as join in. I drive my enemies before me and hear the lamentations of their women for the lulz.
My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ and a 4+FNP. I am so angry that resurrection changed to FNP. It was so fluffy before to knock them over and stand them back up. Now I can't just take out a warrior group with massed AP fire as they roll to save instead of at the end to stand back up.
Honestly, I really just don't want to play Necrons anymore. I have to put so much into taking down their basic troops, let alone the rest of their army. I play guard so I have answers, but it just baffles me how much work I need to put into making my lists to compete with his while he just takes whatever he finds fun because they are durable and will last. I would much rather play Eldar, at least I don't have to spend entire turns shooting my entire army at one of their troop choices.
Not to just sit here and rant. I'll play them more and get used to fighting them, but as a new player its so daunting to deal with. I play against Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, and Space Marines. I find all of those armies fun and fair for various reasons. Yet, when I fight Necrons I just constantly feel like nothing I do is really efficiently effecting them.
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks. Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
And even then it's a 2+ once per unit and with specific restrictions.
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ and a 4+FNP. I am so angry that resurrection changed to FNP. It was so fluffy before to knock them over and stand them back up. Now I can't just take out a warrior group with massed AP fire as they roll to save instead of at the end to stand back up.
Honestly, I really just don't want to play Necrons anymore. I have to put so much into taking down their basic troops, let alone the rest of their army. I play guard so I have answers, but it just baffles me how much work I need to put into making my lists to compete with his while he just takes whatever he finds fun because they are durable and will last. I would much rather play Eldar, at least I don't have to spend entire turns shooting my entire army at one of their troop choices.
Not to just sit here and rant. I'll play them more and get used to fighting them, but as a new player its so daunting to deal with. I play against Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, and Space Marines. I find all of those armies fun and fair for various reasons. Yet, when I fight Necrons I just constantly feel like nothing I do is really efficiently effecting them.
As a necron player this post made me moist. (Altough i can understand your frustration)
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
Sorry, typed in haste! I meant they can wound anything on a 6 with a 4+ armour save and 4+ FNP. However, I had no idea that ID gave a -1 penalty to RP. That makes things a lot more manageable. Is that new in this codex or have we simply missed that rule this entire time?
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
Sorry, typed in haste! I meant they can wound anything on a 6 with a 4+ armour save and 4+ FNP. However, I had no idea that ID gave a -1 penalty to RP. That makes things a lot more manageable. Is that new in this codex or have we simply missed that rule this entire time?
It's a change from the old RP which worked differently. Think of it as FnP with a modifier for ID instead of being negated by it.
Also remember that outside of formations it's a 5+ unless you have something to give it a bonus.
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
Sorry, typed in haste! I meant they can wound anything on a 6 with a 4+ armour save and 4+ FNP. However, I had no idea that ID gave a -1 penalty to RP. That makes things a lot more manageable. Is that new in this codex or have we simply missed that rule this entire time?
It's new in 7e.
Also the wound anything on a 6 only really matters against T8+. If you're not playing with Gargantuan Creatures I think that affects a whole of 2-3 units in the game.
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
Sorry, typed in haste! I meant they can wound anything on a 6 with a 4+ armour save and 4+ FNP. However, I had no idea that ID gave a -1 penalty to RP. That makes things a lot more manageable. Is that new in this codex or have we simply missed that rule this entire time?
It's a new addition.
The wound everything on a six isn't that special, unless you are using exclusively Wraithlords.
Keep in mind that bolters can also wound most things on a 6, up to T7.
Where I play people that unhappy about necrons, are unhappy because of the BA treatment. Sure stuff got buffed. Some stuff got very nice. Only for an necron player to build those that army they have to drop everything they bought and more or less buy a new army. And if someone has cash for that, why not just buy eldar that work much smoother ?
I doubt many people who had to buy 6 AB boxs and 4-5 scyths is happy now.
If new eldar will be even better then they are now, but based around a first turn infiltration melee rush with scorpions , people won't be happy either.
Just because a unit is in the book doesn't mean you have to buy it.
A lot of VERY common units got buffs. Ghost Arks don't look like they glance themselves anymore. Destroyers that I love got another Wound. FLAYED ONES ARE GOOD!!! YAAAY!
And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option.
He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons.
As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
Makumba wrote: And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option. He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons. As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
Assuming that all necron players started in fifth, it seems Or that they only had what they used in a list.
euhm C'tans are gonna come off the shelves (except the Transcendant maybe). The nightbringer is very nice.
Crypteks are still good. Agreed, they lost a lot of that special gear that made them unique snowflakes, but you can use them to give warrior blobs 5+ invulns (and arguably 4+ reanimation protocol against ID in Decurions).
I had a necron army before the release, but I am not a netlist player so I didn't have 6 AB's and ditto Scythes.
Scythes are still very good and even the AB has a place - even though it's now balanced.
Both of these no brainer choices have been brought back into line. Both got better due to core rules updates which were not factored into their original point value. It's now been taken into account
The biggest con of the Obelisk is the firing-arc.
That and the fact that you are paying 160USD for a model that is only slightly and situationally better than a Barge.
I think it's more: People with an Obelisk will use the Obelisk and people with Barges will continue to use the Barges.
Makumba wrote: And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option.
He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons.
As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
That is not our responsibility nor Games Workshop's.
If a player, in a tabletop hobby, only buys the overpowered models then he should expect change like this and I personally do not feel sorry for these 'powerbuyers'.
You can still build a good army with all those models, but it will probably not be the strongest list any more.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Assuming that all necron players started in fifth, it seems
I started after 6th BRB was released and still have all of those models, so that's not an excuse.
The reason I bought those is because they looked great.
I also only have two Flyers, because I do not like to spam the same unit four times.
Except Warriors, everyone loves to spam Warriors.
Makumba wrote: And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option.
He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons.
As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
Only if they built soley around the power units of the last codex.
I have 20+ Destroyers, 20+ Flayed ones, 3 Ghost Arks, and 2 Monoliths that are going to get more use. Anyone who owns Lychguard and Praetorians is doing a happy dance.
Also, your assesment of the changes in entirely overly grim. Crypteks are incredibley usefull as a defensive tool. Scythes are still good. C'tan are about the same, they weren't particularly good last edition. AB's are about the only thing that should expect to collect some dust.
Warriors and Immortals are better than they have ever been.
RaptorHunter wrote: My best friend plays necrons and after reading the new Codex I absolutely have no idea how to beat him. We just started playing a few months ago and I got used to the "focus one unit" approach to necrons, but now I have no idea what to do. His basic troops have a weapon that can wound anything with a 4+ .
Well, that's wrong. Nothing in the book allows him to do that, unless he's fielding purely deathmarks.
Also, you do realize that Instant Death gives a -1 penalty to RP, right? That 4+ from the cryptek or Decurion becomes a 5+
Sorry, typed in haste! I meant they can wound anything on a 6 with a 4+ armour save and 4+ FNP. However, I had no idea that ID gave a -1 penalty to RP. That makes things a lot more manageable. Is that new in this codex or have we simply missed that rule this entire time?
It's a new addition.
The wound everything on a six isn't that special, unless you are using exclusively Wraithlords.
Keep in mind that bolters can also wound most things on a 6, up to T7.
It was more relevant of a rule when I played 4th, and our basic guns couldn't wound T7.
Makumba wrote: And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option.
He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons.
As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
Assuming that all necron players started in fifth, it seems Or that they only had what they used in a list.
Necrons were a major FOTM army in 5th / 6th and it really shows.
Furyou Miko wrote: Codex Creep would have seen them come down to 15 points anyway just to be in line with Space Marines :p I could have lived with that and T5 immortals!
Also, your assesment of the changes in entirely overly grim. Crypteks are incredibley usefull as a defensive tool. Scythes are still good. C'tan are about the same, they weren't particularly good last edition. AB's are about the only thing that should expect to collect some dust.
Warriors and Immortals are better than they have ever been.
I don't play necrons. I play IG. But tell me, necron armies here were using 2 chariots 4-5 scyths, 3 AB and tesla immortals. Now chariots got weaker, imo, or at least changed a lot. There is no way 4-5 scyths will fit in to a necron army, just like my IG can't fit 4 vendettas in to an army. AB are horrible, if they can't jink then we are looking here at skimer version of hydra flakk guns.
Only ctan that was run was the LoW one and that one was nerfed. The shard ones have random shoting, which is horrible.
Don't know about immortals rules, but people will have to get guass arms for them back again. Also if am not wrong the base size of units got bigger, so people will have to buy more units anyway. Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
Again I didn't say that the necron army became bad. I don't know that, I don't play necron. But someone would have had to buy bad units in 5th or 6th, to be happy about them.That is why I can imagine why people whos army not only got bad, but also lost the way they like to play , arre unhappy.
I doubt a BA player who liked to play with razorbacks and assault marines is happy that the new BA codex has heavy flamer tacs, grav weapons etc. I know that I am unhappy about my army going from good vets in chimeras and vendettas to you will lose no matter what you take, because your army is too slow and not resilient enough.
I haven't played in 4th, but from other people told me necron were rather horrible back then. made out of destroyer spam and auto lose condition in rules.
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide not to reanimate?
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide to not to REAP?
You could also just buy a Ghost ark in the Fact attack, and let your Royal court ride around in it....
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restriction is the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide to not to REAP?
You're correct, but not for the reasons you stated: squad size is not the only restriction. Ghost arks may only carry warriors and characters with the infantry type.
So what you said totally works, but that one line was a little misleading.
Makumba wrote: And any necron player with a 1500pts army will have. 0 destroyers. as they were bad. 0 flyed ones as they were beyond bad. Maybe 1-2 ghost arcs. As scyths were a much better transport option. He will have to shelf his ctan, his crypteks, ABs, most of the scyths. And he will not have any of the melee units or the jetbikes which got realy nice with the no cover blast weapons. As I said this is like the blood angles dex all over again. The new codex could be better, I don't know never played nids, but anyone who already had a necron army will struggle to be happy.
Only if they built soley around the power units of the last codex.
I have 20+ Destroyers, 20+ Flayed ones, 3 Ghost Arks, and 2 Monoliths that are going to get more use. Anyone who owns Lychguard and Praetorians is doing a happy dance.
Also, your assesment of the changes in entirely overly grim. Crypteks are incredibley usefull as a defensive tool. Scythes are still good. C'tan are about the same, they weren't particularly good last edition. AB's are about the only thing that should expect to collect some dust.
Warriors and Immortals are better than they have ever been.
I dunno, the Transcendant Ctan is still rather useful, and the Nightbringer is actually rather solid. The random powers suck, but his Gaze, being able to shoot in and out of combat, and hit FMCs, is pretty useful.
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide to not to REAP?
You could also just buy a Ghost ark in the Fact attack, and let your Royal court ride around in it....
Yeah. Original Scarabs were individual models with T8 and a 2+ save. They had no attacks, but reduced the armour of any vehicle they were attached to by 3, and of course at the time every Necron (including Scarabs) came with Disruption Fields... at this time, Disruption Fields inflicted what was effectively Gets Hot on everyone within 3", along with a -1 modifier To Hit for every additional Necron in range... it modified the dice roll, not the result needed, so if a Marine was in range of 3 scarabs, his bolter, grenades and CC attacks would Get Hot on anything less than a 4 and thus could only hit on a 5+.
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide to not to REAP?
You could also just buy a Ghost ark in the Fact attack, and let your Royal court ride around in it....
Ah thanks totally overlooked that one.
I honestly can't tell if that was sarcasm or not. >.>
Those that used necrons in transports now won't be able to put their lords inside as they 10 man transports now.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide to not to REAP?
You could also just buy a Ghost ark in the Fact attack, and let your Royal court ride around in it....
Ah thanks totally overlooked that one.
I honestly can't tell if that was sarcasm or not. >.>
Nah I´m serious. I´m new into the hobby so my sarcasm and bitterness hasn´t fully evolved (yet). Were they fast attack in the previous codex too? Don´t have the old one laying around atm.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide not to reanimate?
If any tactic requires you to lose models first, chances are, that tactic is bad.
You can still put your Warriors and your lord in a ghost ark once you lost 1 warrior as the only restrictions are the size of the squad (resolved now that you lost 1 warrior, so with your lord you have 10 in total) and the unit type (your lord still counts as infantry). It works. Just not from the start. That brings me to another question. Can i decide not to reanimate?
If any tactic requires you to lose models first, chances are, that tactic is bad.
Hey did I say it is a (good) tactic? I would rather call it "Using the unavoidable to your advantage"
just happened? also to a lesser degree my terminators.....
