Howdy Dakka!
I'll be heading out to the LVO here in a couple weeks (alongside of many of yourselves, of course)! I recently just got done taking my Orks (my favorite army) to the Renegade GT, which you can find posted here:
You may notice that I was partaking in doktor_g's challenge - which I was successful at!
doktor_g wrote: Ok... I love Orks. I'm still buying. Still painting. Been to tourneys with them. 2 majors. I have >8000 points. 100% themed. 100% painted. I know what I'm doing with them. I'm not a strategic genius, but I'm no slouch. I am frakking sick of losing with this bullshim codex in competitive play. SICK!
Make a list. Any ork build. Battleforge. 1850. Play it 3 times in a competitive meta. I'll bet you lose at LEAST 2 of 3 games.
Doktor_g is a very gracious dakkaite, and after I won 2/3 games, he kindly donated his Stompa, just as promised .
However, even after completing the challenge, I feel unjustly rewarded - I wasn't able to get into the top 16 due to a clerical error, and I want another shot to prove what the original challenge was all about: That Orks really can compete in the tournament scene, and take on the best with great success! And, what better place to prove it then the LVO 2015?!?
My goal? I want to try and make it into top 8 at the tournament. If I can get that far, I will consider the list a resounding success, and a victory for the Orks. However, if I can't manage that, I would also settle for the top 10% of the field, but I'm not going to state that such a thing will be easy. I'm sure if the LVO is anything like Adepticon then the best players from around the country will show up, and I've no doubt I've got my work cut out for me.
I had originally planned on taking Green Tide to the LVO, but I am now internally debating this decision. This is not a question of competitiveness (as I think Green Tide is VERY good), but rather one of taste. While Green Tide hits like a truck and is very punchy, it is also EXTREMELY slow - and my preferred kind of list is MTO (Maximum Threat Overload). Hit 'em hard, and hit 'em fast - shove so many threats down the opponent's throat that they can't deal with em all!
As such, I am considering one of the two following lists: Either Bully Boyz, or Green Tide. Here they are:
LIST ONE: The Green Tide
* "Green Tide Formation" 94x Boyz
6x Nobz with Klaws
* Warboss warlord
* 'Eavy Armour
Power Klaw
Big Bosspole
* 10x Boyz
Nob W/ Klaw+BP + Fast Attack + * Deffkopta
Choppa, Twin-linked Rokkits
+ Heavy Support + * Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
THOUGHTS ON LIST:
You'll notice that this list is very similar to my Renegade GT list, with a couple changes.
First, I've dropped to one Deffkopta - the only reason I took them before was because there was a maelstrom objective to get into your opponent's backfield, and I feel like one is sufficient for this.
Second, I've dropped the KFF - It was useful, but I feel like there are better uses of the 50 points.
Third, I've swapped out the Big Trakks for Gun Wagons - While slightly more pricey (70 vs 55 pts), the Gun Wagons are also way more durable, as they have AV 13/12/10 rather than 12/11/10.
Fourth, I finally relented and decided to take the Big Bosspole for the Green Tide. Honestly, I still don't see morale as an issue for the tide, so the main reason is because of fear checks. I failed enough ld9 fear checks against knights, MCs, etc at the Renegade to warrant spending the 20 points for fearless so I don't have to worry about that stupidass rule again.
Fifth, I swapped out a grot squad and some tankbustas for a Boyz Squad w/ a Klaw. The 6x man Tankbusta squad was cute, but I feel like the 10 man boy squad has more utility.
* 10x Boyz
Nob W/ Klaw+BP + Heavy Support + * Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Big Trakk Squad
* Big Trakk
2x Big Shootas, Boarding Plank
* Big Trakk
2x Big Shootas, Boarding Plank
* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
THOUGHTS ON LIST:
I LOVE the Bully Boyz. They are deadly and killy as can get - perfect for an Ork army! I think of this list as the spiritual successor to my 5ed Battlewagon Rush list. 8 vehicles, all filled with deadly CC units....now that's a kunnin' plan I can get behind! Da Finkin' Cap is there to roll for the infiltrate, which I can put on the Meganobz if I desire, and everything besides the artillery basically rushes upfield. Honestly, I'd like to take a second squad of Gun Wagons if I could, but Gun Wagons only hold 10 models - which means the warbosses can't hop in if I need em to, hence the Big Trakks. I've only played this list at local tournaments, but it has done well, and it is a TON of fun to play. Funny side note: The list has a total of 81 Power Klaw attacks on the charge!
So there you have it. I've put a poll up to ask people how they think I'll place, and while I'm trying to aim for top 8 (or at least top 10%) of the field, I won't be holding my breath - all I can do is take the boyz to war and do the best with them that I can! If you guys have a thought on which list to take (or have any thoughts in general) let me know below. WAUGHHH!
Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!
I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.
Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!
I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.
Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....
When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.
Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?
Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!
I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.
Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....
When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.
Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?
Aha, nope, i did mean succsessful I guess it's just the internet thing...
Anywayz, i've found out that you can counter many popular powerful builds with plain numbers and positioning.
Biker-spam is directly countered with GT while they're gona be a pain for mech orks as they concentrate on a flank, take out a couple of vehicles with grav weaponry and block your path making use of their superior maneuvrability and range durability.
Grav cents.
Alpha-strike builds that rely on taking out the most essential part of your army - GT is too numerous to be taken out with an Alpha-Strike.
You can deny movement for FMC, Flyers and psychic/shooty/both FMC spam (i bet you're gona face some pentyrants) is very hard to deal with for speed freaks.
But what counters GT? Mass artillery that's not used so often due to how ineffective it is against common stuff that's met at tournaments.
Serp spam to a degree - the good part, however, is that you rarely see pure serp spam. They're often supported by wraiths and/or WWP ap2 flamers that are not so frightening to GT.
Invisible units that are gona tarpit your GT all game - well...it is a counter. But can't have a win-win everywhere, right?
Don't get me wrong - i do think that speedfreaks are a powerful army. I just find they have more hard-matchups than GT at the moment.
Why not take Ghazzy on the Bully Boyz list, I know he is expensive, but all your mega nobs can run and assault during his waaaagh. On top of that he can tank a load of assaults with 2++ during that turn.
Getting infiltrate on the MANZ won't help if they are in vehicles. Da Finkin Kap is less useful in this situation. I'd recommend the Green Tide list because it is much harder to stop. It is slow, but the MANZ are REALLY slow. With the prevalence of tanks and knights, armies bring lots of AT. They will therefore drop at least 1 of your tanks a turn, and your assault becomes disjointed. In your green tide list, I think a 2nd Deffkopta might be useful, to stay in reserve and come on after the 1st one dies.
If the unit has infiltrate they can do so in their dedicated transport.
I have a bully boyz/blitz list that works well in my local meta, but I suspect that it wouldn't hold up as well in the GT scene. Whereas I am generally not as successful with the Green Tide.
I would be very interested to see how your 2nd list does; if you choose to take it.
Green tide has a lot of strengths, but a lot of weaknesses, especially in a competitive (and timed) format.
It's one unit, without objsec, that is slow as crap and takes up most of your points. That's not great in an objective game. You have a couple fast things to help make up the difference, but deffkoptas and gunwagons don't last too long.
My biggest issue is that it's a LOT of models to move around in a timed event and when I use it, I usually have to make reasonable estimates on how many can attack because it's hard to accurately and quickly count how many are within chopping distance.
Maybe you're a lean, mean, green, model movin' machine, but personally, I think it would become a MAJOR pain to do that for 12 hours over 2 days.
Why give the DLS to a big mek, though? Why not another warboss? I mean, if the big mek had a KFF I could see it, but a naked big mek seems like a waste compared to a warboss.
As for bully boyz - it's easily the best (and easiest to use) formation orks have, and it's decent, but when your meganobz go toe-to-toe with elites from other armies like TH/SS terminators, they'll get their asses kicked so hard they'll have to gak out their mouths. PF/TH Insta-death-ing meganobz with no saves, and watching your opponent get 3++ is disheartening. And your list doesn't (and can't) have enough boyz to handle terminators.
I hear terminators are an unpopular choice in tournaments these days, so maybe it's not so bad, but riptides/wraithknights still do terrifying things to bully boyz and are so fast they'll never be caught. I mean, riptide's large blast str 8 ap2 evaporates meganobz with no saves, and wraithknight's suncannon isn't quite as bad, but still devastating. And then there's dreadknights, which will wreck them in CC.
Against any sort of gunline, your trukks will get shot to death and the nobz will be soon to follow, and there's not much you can do about it. Against any sort of elite army, meganobz are outclassed due to no invluns. If your enemy fields nothing but MEQs, you're in good shape, but that's probably not likely in competitions.
Your lists are probably about as good as they can be. Purely competitively, the green tide is probably better, as there's a LOT of things that ruin bully boyz' day, but being able to handle that list in a timed environment is something I, personally, couldn't do. You may fare better.
At any rate, my hat is off to you for trying. I'm not much of a tournament guy in general, and though my personal opinion is that brining 7th ed orks to a tourney is like bring a knife to a gunfight, it's nice to see people making the effort.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah - if any of the LVO games count kill points, beware - iirc, if the green tide is destroyed, it counts as 11 kill points (one for each boy group, plus the warboss).
And your tide is kinda small, and it's not that hard to kill 100 boyz. So if they do die, it's an unrecoverable loss.
Green tide is a much harder list to deal with then bullyboyz.
Also I think ur big mek should have kff but instead of keeping him at the back of the tide by the warlord as I believe you had at renegade put him closer upfront where the kff gives you massive bubble that protects your tide from heavy shooting lists. It's also not bad because w lucky stikk ur Mek has rerollable 5++, I find it more useful then 40points on eavy armour per squad. If you do take an eavy armor squad just take 1 and place those boys as body guards to your gt warboss, painboy, big Mek for LoS duties. You also tend to keep the greentide warboss in the back where his pk doesn't really become useful to later on in the game. If you need the points turn that into a big choppa. He is already standard str5 choppa makes him str7 and 8 on the charge which is all you need. Don't forget 2+ rerolls and invisibility is nerfed at LVO. The 2+ reroll nerf does no favors for ur mega armour w lucky stikk warboss and invisibility nerf only helps ur tide vs net lists.
I know you took gun wagons but I feel the meta is very vehicle heavy at the moment there is really not much going to keep 3 gunwagons alive.
I say take two sqauds of tankbustas and put them in trukks, they are cheap, fast and are able to get ur tankbustas in range to major threats quicker and am I mistaken or does a tankbustas dedicated transport also gain the tank hunter usr for its rokkets? If so its a cheap way to artificially increase your shots for ur tank hunters! You're going to need to screen those trukks with other units for cover save because they won't last long.
I would do something like this: use the warbikers to screen ur trukks for a cover save. Use the gretchin to shield your mekgun/loota gunline from deepstriking units. I feel warbikers mix well with the tide because it causes your opponent to focus on another fast moving infantry unit that can eat up a lot of the shooting that would go to blunt your greentide charge. If you want 5 more tankbustas get rid of the eavy armour on squad 1, get rid of the extra challenge nob in the tide and the nob in the warbiker squad. That gives you the points needed for 5 more, but I'm not so sure that a good idea. You can also turn the killsaw on the big Mek into a pk and use he points to give the gt challange nob a big choppa to make him more useful.
Warboss: bbp, shoota, big choppa, eavy armour
1xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota, eavy armor
5xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota
1xboy slugga squad, nob
3xboy slugga squad
Painboy
Big Mek: lucky stikk, kff, killsaw
10xgretchin
10xgretchin
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x warbikers, nob w big choppa
5 Mek gunz w kmk 14 lootas
Honestly what I wish for most was ghazskull to have the ability to call waagh every turn. I would gladly turn his 2++ invulnerable save to 4+ if he had that ability as well. That would make mega nobs better, another way to gain fearless and another way to give Orks more mobility and make ghaz more survivable overall without makin him to strong.
Kap'n Krump wrote:Green tide has a lot of strengths, but a lot of weaknesses, especially in a competitive (and timed) format.
It's one unit, without objsec, that is slow as crap and takes up most of your points. That's not great in an objective game. You have a couple fast things to help make up the difference, but deffkoptas and gunwagons don't last too long.
My biggest issue is that it's a LOT of models to move around in a timed event and when I use it, I usually have to make reasonable estimates on how many can attack because it's hard to accurately and quickly count how many are within chopping distance.
Maybe you're a lean, mean, green, model movin' machine, but personally, I think it would become a MAJOR pain to do that for 12 hours over 2 days.
Why give the DLS to a big mek, though? Why not another warboss? I mean, if the big mek had a KFF I could see it, but a naked big mek seems like a waste compared to a warboss.
As for bully boyz - it's easily the best (and easiest to use) formation orks have, and it's decent, but when your meganobz go toe-to-toe with elites from other armies like TH/SS terminators, they'll get their asses kicked so hard they'll have to gak out their mouths. PF/TH Insta-death-ing meganobz with no saves, and watching your opponent get 3++ is disheartening. And your list doesn't (and can't) have enough boyz to handle terminators.
I hear terminators are an unpopular choice in tournaments these days, so maybe it's not so bad, but riptides/wraithknights still do terrifying things to bully boyz and are so fast they'll never be caught. I mean, riptide's large blast str 8 ap2 evaporates meganobz with no saves, and wraithknight's suncannon isn't quite as bad, but still devastating. And then there's dreadknights, which will wreck them in CC.
Against any sort of gunline, your trukks will get shot to death and the nobz will be soon to follow, and there's not much you can do about it. Against any sort of elite army, meganobz are outclassed due to no invluns. If your enemy fields nothing but MEQs, you're in good shape, but that's probably not likely in competitions.
Your lists are probably about as good as they can be. Purely competitively, the green tide is probably better, as there's a LOT of things that ruin bully boyz' day, but being able to handle that list in a timed environment is something I, personally, couldn't do. You may fare better.
At any rate, my hat is off to you for trying. I'm not much of a tournament guy in general, and though my personal opinion is that brining 7th ed orks to a tourney is like bring a knife to a gunfight, it's nice to see people making the effort.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah - if any of the LVO games count kill points, beware - iirc, if the green tide is destroyed, it counts as 11 kill points (one for each boy group, plus the warboss).
And your tide is kinda small, and it's not that hard to kill 100 boyz. So if they do die, it's an unrecoverable loss.
Timing isn't really an issue for me - despite how bad the tide looks to move, I am actually able to finish all of my games with it just fine. The issue with it is how friggen tired I will be moving hundreds of models around every game turn - I don't want to be too tired to enjoy Vegas at the end of the day!
As for the Bully Boyz, I think people underestimate them. First of all, people always assume Bully Boyz are supposed to win a fair fight - they aren't. What they are supposed to do is one of two things:
Either they gang up on an opponent that just can't handle that many Klaws (A Dreadknight will kill 2 Bully Boyz on average, but will die in return when charged - especially if by more then one squad. Same thing with Wraithknights, and riptides, knights, etc. die HORRIBLE deaths to them).
OR
Mutual Annihilation. I don't throw my Bully Boyz into things expecting them to come out completely untattered - they are a sacrificial missile. If I charge bully boyz into a Knight, Wraithknight, Dreadknight, TH/SS termies, what have you - both squads die (although, even then, I usually have 1-3 nobs left at the end). And you know what? I'm totally okay with that. Those Meganobs, which cost me 210 points, just killed a 200 pt+ Dreadknight, or a 300 pt wraithknight, or a 400 pt Knight, or a LRC and then the termies inside for a total of nearly 500 pts! That's a spanking good deal man - because at the end of the game, if you are able to kill stuff your opponent controls in a >1 ratio to your deaths, then he gets wiped out before you do.
gungo wrote:Green tide is a much harder list to deal with then bullyboyz.
Also I think ur big mek should have kff but instead of keeping him at the back of the tide by the warlord as I believe you had at renegade put him closer upfront where the kff gives you massive bubble that protects your tide from heavy shooting lists. It's also not bad because w lucky stikk ur Mek has rerollable 5++, I find it more useful then 40points on eavy armour per squad. If you do take an eavy armor squad just take 1 and place those boys as body guards to your gt warboss, painboy, big Mek for LoS duties. You also tend to keep the greentide warboss in the back where his pk doesn't really become useful to later on in the game. If you need the points turn that into a big choppa. He is already standard str5 choppa makes him str7 and 8 on the charge which is all you need. Don't forget 2+ rerolls and invisibility is nerfed at LVO. The 2+ reroll nerf does no favors for ur mega armour w lucky stikk warboss and invisibility nerf only helps ur tide vs net lists.
I know you took gun wagons but I feel the meta is very vehicle heavy at the moment there is really not much going to keep 3 gunwagons alive.
I say take two sqauds of tankbustas and put them in trukks, they are cheap, fast and are able to get ur tankbustas in range to major threats quicker and am I mistaken or does a tankbustas dedicated transport also gain the tank hunter usr for its rokkets? If so its a cheap way to artificially increase your shots for ur tank hunters! You're going to need to screen those trukks with other units for cover save because they won't last long.
I would do something like this: use the warbikers to screen ur trukks for a cover save. Use the gretchin to shield your mekgun/loota gunline from deepstriking units. I feel warbikers mix well with the tide because it causes your opponent to focus on another fast moving infantry unit that can eat up a lot of the shooting that would go to blunt your greentide charge. If you want 5 more tankbustas get rid of the eavy armour on squad 1, get rid of the extra challenge nob in the tide and the nob in the warbiker squad. That gives you the points needed for 5 more, but I'm not so sure that a good idea. You can also turn the killsaw on the big Mek into a pk and use he points to give the gt challange nob a big choppa to make him more useful.
Warboss: bbp, shoota, big choppa, eavy armour
1xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota, eavy armor
5xboy slugga squad, nob w pk/shoota
1xboy slugga squad, nob
3xboy slugga squad
Painboy
Big Mek: lucky stikk, kff, killsaw
10xgretchin
10xgretchin
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x tankbustas w trukk/rokkit launcha
5x warbikers, nob w big choppa
5 Mek gunz w kmk 14 lootas
Honestly what I wish for most was ghazskull to have the ability to call waagh every turn. I would gladly turn his 2++ invulnerable save to 4+ if he had that ability as well. That would make mega nobs better, another way to gain fearless and another way to give Orks more mobility and make ghaz more survivable overall without makin him to strong.
Man, you have no idea how badly I want to take Ghazzie at the head of the Green Tide. =/
Anywayz, i've got an idea. If you don't manage to get in top with orks, set a Table Flip Challenge! Where you reward the ork who does with...a stompa!
I do think that the greentide is gona be more sucksessful than bossboyz due to meta, however. As it has more hard-counters. Also, i'd consider 2 pairs of buzzsaws for a squad without a pk boss.
Haha, I like that idea! The travelin' Ork Stompa trophy....
When you say the meta, what kind of counters are you talking about? I'm curious. My own local meta is rather odd, and I'd like to know what other locations have around the country for a meta.
Also, sorry, confused by your terminology of "Sucksessful"... is that a typo, or are you saying the Green Tide will have the worse matachups?
Aha, nope, i did mean succsessful I guess it's just the internet thing...
Anywayz, i've found out that you can counter many popular powerful builds with plain numbers and positioning.
Biker-spam is directly countered with GT while they're gona be a pain for mech orks as they concentrate on a flank, take out a couple of vehicles with grav weaponry and block your path making use of their superior maneuvrability and range durability.
Grav cents.
Alpha-strike builds that rely on taking out the most essential part of your army - GT is too numerous to be taken out with an Alpha-Strike.
You can deny movement for FMC, Flyers and psychic/shooty/both FMC spam (i bet you're gona face some pentyrants) is very hard to deal with for speed freaks.
But what counters GT? Mass artillery that's not used so often due to how ineffective it is against common stuff that's met at tournaments.
Serp spam to a degree - the good part, however, is that you rarely see pure serp spam. They're often supported by wraiths and/or WWP ap2 flamers that are not so frightening to GT.
Invisible units that are gona tarpit your GT all game - well...it is a counter. But can't have a win-win everywhere, right?
Don't get me wrong - i do think that speedfreaks are a powerful army. I just find they have more hard-matchups than GT at the moment.
Entirely valid points.
As I said, this is mostly a taste decision. Honestly, I'd probably prefer to play Bully Boyz for a few reasons:
1. It's less exhausting to run at a tournament with a (potential) 9 games!
2. It's fast as hell, which means it tend to be more fun.
3. It is a definitely an MTO type of list.
4. I may run Green Tide for the Highlander tournament
However, in the end, I recognize that Green Tide may just be more competitive.
I will be playing SEVERAL test games in the next week or so before the LVO to put the Bully Boyz through one last barrage of tests. I'll be trying out my list against the following:
Grav Calv Spam White Scars
CSM Flyer spam with 3x Heldrakes, 2x Fire Raptors, and a Dredclaw
Flyrant Spam (x3) with Knight Allies
Eldar Wave Serpent Spam with a Skyshield Lynx
Also potentially a TWolf Dstar with knights, the NEWcrons with Destroyer Formation + Wraiths, and maybe even Cent Devvie-star.
If the Bully Boyz can't even come CLOSE to competing against any of these lists, then I can always fall back upon the Green Tide list (I have both armies painted and ready to go, it's just a matter of choice at this point).
I will post in this thread and let you folks know how the list fares against their opponents, and although I will be way too pressed for time before the LVO to write up full battlereports, I'll give quick synopsis' of the games.
After going over the game you and I had last saturday I feel like your list has alot of threats, but not enough ones that needed immediate dealing with.
T1 I had to simply stop the bullyboys asap, there was nothing else that really needed my attention. The mek gunz could be mitigated with proper spacing, the bustas are in too hard of transports to warrant me trying to pop them, and the boys well, they weren't going to accomplish much against my list in the first place.
Later in the game the bullyboys were still my primary concern for those same exact reasons. No matter what I could have done they would hit like a ton of bricks and move onto the next unit. After killing my stalker the bustas had no real strong targets so it was easy to simply ignore them unless i had no better target to go for which let me just point everything at the remaining bullyboys while the wraiths played cleanup with your backfield.
I might suggest taking Zhadsnark with some bikes just to give you more "in your face" high level threats early on in the game and some more mobility. That way when you have all your bullyboys about to get charged by wraiths or shot up by heavy destroyers, etc. You can still have a bunch of tough hard hitting (and imo more consistent) units that need dealing with asap or will go crazy in your opponents backfield.
At least thats what I got from our game last time, while the rest of your list may preform better than bikes in other matches I feel that if you had the bikes vs my list it would have been an easy stomp since their shooting could have mulched destroyers all on their own or put out enough wounds to down those tough wraiths before they could clean up the mek guns and boys. Because seeing what little amount of choppy power i had left after the cc with the bullyboys I doubt they would have been able to survive for very long against 30 or so bikes.
TLDR tossing in some bikes would really help in the cron matchup with those dastardly wraiths. No idea if they would be better or worse in other matchups
EDIT: probably could have worded the whole thing a bit better but I think I still got the point across.
I'll list the "LVO Prep" missions designed to test out my Bully Boyz list here. These are games I will play PRIOR to the LVO to determine the viability of taking the Bully Boyz to LVO. If the Bully Boyz can't cut it here, they certainly can't cut it at the LVO.
These will not be full battle reports, but I will quickly detail what happened in these games, which I consider likely to be the "bad matchups" against Bully Boyz.
Game 1: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. CSM Summoning and Flyer Spam!
His List:
2x Lvl 3 Tzeentch Sorcerers
2x Squads of 15 cultists
3x Heldrakes
2x Fire Raptors with Rending
Dreadclaw w/ 5 Chosen with Melta Guns
Void Shield w/ 3x Shields.
LVO Mission 6:
Primary: Crusade (4 Objectives)
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker
This is perfect first test. My list, much like the Green Tide, doesn't have very good AA - but unlike the Green Tide, it isn't as good at board denial, so I wanted to test the bully boyz against something I considered might be a serious weakness - Flyer Spam!
As you can see, a pretty heavy handed one dimensional list - but one that does it well. 5 Freaking Flyers (6 if you include the Dreadclaw)! The Fire Raptors are gross, as they have a total of 8 BS5 str 7 shots, and 6 Str 6 shots, plus 4 ordnance missiles, with AV12 and 4 HP and RENDING! The heldrakes aren't really fun for me either, as they just demolish anything in an open topped vehicle.
Initially, I rolled warlord traits, and with the Finkin' Cap, got the one I wanted: -1 to reserves! That should help a tad. He deployed with his sorcerers on the board behind some LOS blocking terrain and next to his void shield - which would make shooting them tricky. I won the roll, and let him go first, as I wanted to be able to hit his flyers if they came to ground to score. I also reserved all of my vehicles except for my Trukks with Bully Boyz, as I wanted a chance for them to move on without getting nailed with flamers galore.
He got first blood by nailing a truck with the Meltas, and got Sacrifice on BOTH of his Sorcerers, who started pumping out heralds right away. I moved up quick and was able to deny the midfield to him (which put me in a lead at Maelstrom), and due to the -1 to reserves, most of his flyers came on piecemeal. When the Tankbustas came on, they started demolishing flyers left and right before the flamers got them. However, in the course of the game, despite that, they were able to kill a Fire Raptor, a Heldrake, and suppress the other Fire Raptor.
In the end, the fact that he controlled the air didn't really matter. With all of my threats, I was able to take down all of his heralds and squads he summoned and crush his backfield, which put me up on Maelstrom. By turn 5, despite all of his summoning, all he had left was 2 heldrakes and a Fire Raptor with 2 HP. The Meganobs proved nearly impossible to dislodge from terrain, as they were fearless with 2 wounds, a 2+, and a 4+ ruin save. This, I found, was definitely a strength of the list - they had the speed to kill the summoning units before it got out of control, and it proved MUCH harder to dislodge from certain objectives then Green Tide would have (vs this much anti-infantry flyer firepower!)
End Score: VICTORY! Orks 9 (Primary, Secondary, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker)
CSM 1 (First Blood)
Game 2: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. Flyrant Spam!
His List:
3x Flyrants with Brainleech, Egrubs
Dimachaeron in Tyrannocyte
15x Gaunts with Devourers in Tyrannocyte
Malanthrope
3x Mucolid Spores
1x Crone
Knight w/ Bcannon
LVO Mission 6:
Primary: Purge the Alien (KP)
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker
A tough match - but one that needed to be done. Again, my list doesn't have much AA, and Flyrants are going to be SUPER common at the LVO, so I was looking forward to testing this match out. To add difficulty to the match, it was Killpoints - and while I give up KP easily, my opponent does not.
I ended up getting the roll to go first and let my opponent go first because I wanted to test this match in the worst possible situation (e.g. he's already in the air). I even rolled a 6 to seize and still gave it up, again for the same reason!
My opponent's dice for vehicles were friggen awesome, and anything he shot at with an AV value died pretty quick. This was partially my fault - I hadn't blocked off the ass of my gun wagons and kill trakks, and I paid the price for it, as they died pretty damn fast. The tankbustas got off one good turn of shooting and knocked the crone and a hive tyrant to the ground, but I was only in range to charge the crone - although it died immediately.
After that, because I didn't play defensive enough with my tankbustas (and my opponent was smart enough to capitalize upon it), the tankbusta's rides blew up, and then they went kaput. From there it was downhill - without the tankbustas and my vehicles, I had little in the way of anti-air, and wasn't very effective at knocking down the tyrants. However, everything my opponent had that was on the ground died, which I controlled pretty thoroughly.
At the end of the game (we went all the way to turn 7!), he was down to 1 hive tyrant, while I was down to all 3 squads of bully boyz. Had the game been objective based, it would have firmly been within my grasp, but I just bled KP faster then my opponent did, and he was smart about capitalizing on it! I had thoroughly crushed on Maelstrom, but with my opponent getting first blood, there wasn't any way to make up the difference between primary and secondary.
This game may have been have been one of the worst possible matchups, (KP against a flyrant list against my Bully Boyz), but it still makes me question using the Bully Boyz. In nearly every game I play, I find that the Bully Boyz do amazing, it's just the rest of the Orks that are somewhat subpar. I've debated taking Traktor Kannons to combat anti-air, but I'm constantly frustrated in games where they don't have anything to shoot at - and 3 shots for nearly 100 points is pretty pricey. On the other hand, if the game had been objective based, my bully boyz had the ground forces strongly under control, and his flyrants would have never survived to landing, so I'm still debating which list to take.
End Score: DEFEAT! Orks 5 (Secondary, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker)
Tyranids 7 (Primary, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker)
Game 3: 1850 Bully Boyz Vs. White Scars Grav Calv!
Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?
Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?
Sketchyfk wrote: Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?
Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice, i've seen a list similar to this a while ago doing very well. The fearless was one of the best bonuses from the formation. Although the other list just used Trukks as the Meganobz transport. How do they compare points wise?
Is every foot unit in trukks with this list?
The Trukks are the transports for the Meganobs. They are great at missiles (running forward and getting the Meganobz in), but man, they bleed KP like CRAZY.
The Boyz and Tankbustas, on the other hand, go into the Gun Wagons and the Big Trakks.
I worry that if even one guard list faces off against you, with their irresistable wyverns, its going to be game over. 100 boyz is a huge target, and I think those guns could take upwards of 20 guys out a turn.
He's going with bully boyz, so wyverns aren't really an issue.
But yeah, barrages are one of the green tide's many weaknesses. Put them on top of the painboy, do like 30 wounds, and wait for him to fail his LOS and FNP. Then it's all over.
I don't think the game vs the CSM Flyer/Summoning Spam was a good test. The CSM list should have had a means of manipulating reserves rolls. That weakness alone makes it one I would not play, as it is clearly a 'Turn 2' list and cannot guarantee (or rather, does not maximize the chances) that reserves will come on in a timely fashion. Disappointing. Perhaps he could find points for a defense line and comms relay?
While it looks menacing on paper, five CSM flyers do not work THAT well together (I have been playing 2 Heldrakes and 1 Fire Raptor); they get in the way of each other and force sup-optimal positioning of the Raptors (which need to be able to fire on 3 targets to be worth their points; 2 if the targets are juicy) or reduce the impact of the drakes' template. Unless they're firing at something very long (Lynx) or spread out (Green Tide!), it's not possible to bring the Raptor's ball turrets and the nose gun to bear on the same target. I'm thinking the best mix is going to be Heldrake, Storm Eagle & Fire Raptor, rather than spam.
Unless the CSM player is willing to put drakes in hover mode to score points, there is insufficient table presence in this list (counting on summoning, perhaps?). I suppose the (ITC) secondary could be abandoned and the strategy to focus on First Blood, denying Slay the Warlord, and winning the primary?
As for your lists: I think that Green Tide is still the way to go. If the Bully Boyz' transports get wrecked/immobilized/stunned on turn one, the game would be uphill rather than downhill. And (going second) losing 2 transports to a tournament strength list seems a reasonable expectation. The green tide may be a bit on the boring side(?) but like the tide, it is irresistible.
Orock wrote:I worry that if even one guard list faces off against you, with their irresistable wyverns, its going to be game over. 100 boyz is a huge target, and I think those guns could take upwards of 20 guys out a turn.
Kap'n Krump wrote:He's going with bully boyz, so wyverns aren't really an issue.
But yeah, barrages are one of the green tide's many weaknesses. Put them on top of the painboy, do like 30 wounds, and wait for him to fail his LOS and FNP. Then it's all over.
Well, keep in mind, I haven't decided I am going to take Bully Boyz - I'd like to, but only if A. they can compete and B. I can fit their transports on the plane. The purpose of these tests is to look and see if A is true, because if not, I'll just take the tide, which I KNOW can cut it!
As for barrage, in that situation, I just put the Painboy + Warboss on the bottom level of Ruins. ITC has rules that barrage only hits top floor, so while I can't avoid the damage to my boys, I can avoid the damage to my Painboy.
DCannon4Life wrote:I don't think the game vs the CSM Flyer/Summoning Spam was a good test. The CSM list should have had a means of manipulating reserves rolls. That weakness alone makes it one I would not play, as it is clearly a 'Turn 2' list and cannot guarantee (or rather, does not maximize the chances) that reserves will come on in a timely fashion. Disappointing. Perhaps he could find points for a defense line and comms relay?
While it looks menacing on paper, five CSM flyers do not work THAT well together (I have been playing 2 Heldrakes and 1 Fire Raptor); they get in the way of each other and force sup-optimal positioning of the Raptors (which need to be able to fire on 3 targets to be worth their points; 2 if the targets are juicy) or reduce the impact of the drakes' template. Unless they're firing at something very long (Lynx) or spread out (Green Tide!), it's not possible to bring the Raptor's ball turrets and the nose gun to bear on the same target. I'm thinking the best mix is going to be Heldrake, Storm Eagle & Fire Raptor, rather than spam.
Unless the CSM player is willing to put drakes in hover mode to score points, there is insufficient table presence in this list (counting on summoning, perhaps?). I suppose the (ITC) secondary could be abandoned and the strategy to focus on First Blood, denying Slay the Warlord, and winning the primary?
As for your lists: I think that Green Tide is still the way to go. If the Bully Boyz' transports get wrecked/immobilized/stunned on turn one, the game would be uphill rather than downhill. And (going second) losing 2 transports to a tournament strength list seems a reasonable expectation. The green tide may be a bit on the boring side(?) but like the tide, it is irresistible.
Good luck in Vegas!
I agree that the list could have been better, but the idea was to take a total extreme - in this case, a load of flyers - and see how the Bully Boyz do against that. He DID use Summoning, which was how he tried to control the ground game, but I was just too fast to prevent him from getting too many units out before I took out his summoners. Summoning, I think, is another weakness of green tide - put the right unit in there (say, Plague Drones), and it'll tie up my tide for a whole game turn, and prevent me from getting anywhere at all!
With that said, I'm considering taking out the Boyz in the list and adding some Bikes (this wasn't an option previously, but it is now since someone has offered to let me borrow theirs) to add to the Bully Boyz. I'll try it out likely tomorrow.
Some nice tweeks to the Tide list. Can't believe I've overlooked Gunwagons all this time! And they're no longer for sale Might have to start converting.
Bullyboyz would be good to see.
I'm currently building up a force that includes:
Bullyboyz,
Blitz Brigade,
Mogrok's Bossboyz.
Remaining point go to a Detachment to fill in anything else needed.
No need to rely of a Warlord trait when your wagon has scout!
You gain a huge amount of characters to play with. Warboss with Stikk in one mob of Meganobz (Ws6 Nobz and a tanking boss ), KFF Mek in another, Tellyport Blasta Mek in the third (because of reasons, I love that model!), Shokk Attack Mek at the back... The possibilities are endless...
And Modrok's rules aren't bad either, and he can still be given the Thinkin' Kap (potential for sieze on a 4+ ).
But I'm going off topic...
Sounds like anti-air is your main problem. How have the KMK Mek Gunz faired with the Bullyboyz? You're not lacking in AP2 with all those Klaws, and Traktor Kannons are great from grounding FMC's (grounding tests reduced to a 6+).
grendel083 wrote: Some nice tweeks to the Tide list. Can't believe I've overlooked Gunwagons all this time! And they're no longer for sale Might have to start converting.
Bullyboyz would be good to see.
I'm currently building up a force that includes:
Bullyboyz,
Blitz Brigade,
Mogrok's Bossboyz.
Remaining point go to a Detachment to fill in anything else needed.
No need to rely of a Warlord trait when your wagon has scout!
You gain a huge amount of characters to play with. Warboss with Stikk in one mob of Meganobz (Ws6 Nobz and a tanking boss ), KFF Mek in another, Tellyport Blasta Mek in the third (because of reasons, I love that model!), Shokk Attack Mek at the back... The possibilities are endless...
And Modrok's rules aren't bad either, and he can still be given the Thinkin' Kap (potential for sieze on a 4+ ).
But I'm going off topic...
Sounds like anti-air is your main problem. How have the KMK Mek Gunz faired with the Bullyboyz? You're not lacking in AP2 with all those Klaws, and Traktor Kannons are great from grounding FMC's (grounding tests reduced to a 6+).
I love the KMKs - they just do a lot for me sometimes when I need the AP2.
As for the Traktor Kannons - if I knew the meta was flyer heavy I'd take em. I just get so frustrated with a unit that can end up going a whole game doing NOTHING at all when the opponent has no flyers! Especially when it's 3 shots for 100 points!
With that said, I am strongly considering taking them....
Fxeni wrote: I love the KMKs - they just do a lot for me sometimes when I need the AP2.
As for the Traktor Kannons - if I knew the meta was flyer heavy I'd take em. I just get so frustrated with a unit that can end up going a whole game doing NOTHING at all when the opponent has no flyers! Especially when it's 3 shots for 100 points!
Understandable, they work well on Skimmers also, but yes it's a pain when there's nothing to shoot.
The "volume of fire" approach you seem to be going for with Rokkits is good. Still, throwing options at you that you may not have considered may help.
So Smasha Gunz? They lack the Blast of the KMK sadly, but are boosted by AP1. Str is a bit random, but generally higher than a Zzap. Can be used on Flyers where the KMK can't, Ammo Runts will help of course (getting a Skyfire nexus can never be relied on) and like the KMK will have a use each game.
* 10x Gretchin
* Runtherd
+ Fast Attack + * Deffkopta
Choppa, Twin-linked Rokkits
+ Heavy Support + * Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots
* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots
THOUGHTS ON LIST:
I went BACK on my original decision and decided to remove the Big Bosspole again. There's a couple reasons for this. 1st, I forgot that without the Big Bosspole, I can't GtG, which can be a big deal in certain missions where I just need to outlive something after sitting on an objective. 2nd, I needed the 20 points back really bad, and although I really, really, REALLY hate Fear, I will just have to deal with it. 3rd, it occurs to me that the Warboss will likely die in a challenge, and when he does, there goes the fearless.
I changed a few others things though. The squad of boyz in the Gun Wagon wasn't really doing me any favors, so I swapped it back to Tankbustas. The small group of 5x goes in the Gun Wagon closest to the front, and since that vehicle nearly almost ALWAYS dies quickly, it's not a big loss. However, 5 tankbustas is still enough to scare the gak out of vehicles.
I also swapped the Big Mek to a Warboss. Although I love the Killsaw, without the KFF, the Warboss is just better.
I also divvied my KMK squad into two small squads of 2 (four total), losing one KMK, but also gained 2 Traktor Kannons. These aren't really for killing flying vehicles (as one shot won't do much), but rather FMCs. Important Note: Traktor Kannons don't need to do an UNSAVED wound to cause the -3 to grounding checks, only a WOUND - so as long as the FMC takes a wound from somewhere and you hit with a kannon, it's likely coming down. Two of these guns is more then enough to take down an FMC a turn (esp with the Tankbustas firing in the air as well).
+ Heavy Support + * Gun Wagon Squad
* Gun Wagon
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Gun Wagons
1x TL Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Reinforced Ram
* Mek Gunz
5x Ammo Runt
* 5x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* Mek Gunz
3x Ammo Runt
* 2x Kustom Mega-kannon w/ Grots
* 1x Traktor Kannon w/ Grots
THOUGHTS ON LIST:
All that has really remained consistent throughout my iterations of this list has been my Bully Boyz. 5 of them, 1 with killsaw, in a Trukk, do exactly the job I want them to do, and they do it well. However, after several games of testing, it is clear the rest of the list needs some tweaks. Everything else is fragile, and when the vehicles go down (and with so much shooting in 7ed, they WILL go down), I'm often stuck footslogging it. I've tried it with 3 warbosses, with multiple vehicles filled with boys, and other combinations, and each time I am dissapointed. With how fragile boys and tankbustas are, that doesn't bode well for them when their transport goes kaput. The Bully Boyz, despite how slow they are, can often easily make it through the firepower, and often do to the other side to krump some face - but 600 points of awesomeness doesn't really justify the other 1200 points of mediocrity.
The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves (and is NOT the warlord), as if I take him as the warlord, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games). It still has the features of most of the other lists, but the list has barely been tested, which is a concern for LVO.
The other big problem is that, unlike my green tide, this list bleeds First Blood SUPER easily. Unfortunately, First Blood is ridiculously important in LVO (moreso then it should be, IMHO ), and losing it will likely cost me many games - the 1 point makes that big of a difference!
However, the Bully Boyz are looking like a great contender for Adepticon - they allow unlimited detachments, meaning I could stick the Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade so they get scout, add Zhardsnark for scoring bikes, or whatever else I want! Plus, Bully Boyz tend to be MUCH better at getting Maelstrom (by which I mean the entire Maelstrom table Adepticon has, not the mini one LVO runs) then the green tide. Hell, I could even run Green Tide WITH Bully Boyz ! With that said, I'll be giving the list above one last shot to see how it fares against another competitive list (this time White Scars), but unless I am SUPER DUPER impressed, Green Tide may be headed to the LVO while I tweak the Bully Boy list some more.
Fxeni wrote: The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves, as if I take him, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games).
Does the list need updating? There's no bikes there, and you have artillery listed.
I don't think Zhard is worth it for your style of play. He looks good on paper but that's it. I am curious as to why you don't use BWs for the Bully Boyz. I love the formation with five scouting battlewagons.
Fxeni wrote: The above list has showed promise though. Unlike the vehicle spam, the bikes are fast and can't be stopped until they are dead. Zhadsnark is only there to add +1 to Jink saves, as if I take him, I lose out on artillery (which is a price I'm not really willing to pay, as my Artillery has saved me MANY games).
Does the list need updating? There's no bikes there, and you have artillery listed.
Whoopsie. Fixed. Also, to be clear - Zhard only prevents you from taking Artillery when he's your warlord, not when he's in your list.
Dozer Blades wrote:I don't think Zhard is worth it for your style of play. He looks good on paper but that's it. I am curious as to why you don't use BWs for the Bully Boyz. I love the formation with five scouting battlewagons.
I figured the 2+ cover save woulda been worthwhile to make sure the Bikes survive to hit combat. What's been your experience with him?
I would LOVE to take Blitz Brigade with my Bully Boyz, but I can't for LVO - they only allow two sources. CAD + Bully Boyz + BlitzBrigade would be 3, and isn't allowed sadly.
Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.
Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.
The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.
Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.
So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).
Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 =14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.
Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).
Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.
I like both of the new lists and like you I think the greentide is better for LVO whereas bullyboyz is better for adepticon.
On the greentide list I wish you could fit in more support to the the list preferably 10-15 lootas could really help with its firepower and range. It seems a lot of points are place into gunwagon tankbustas. And while I love tankbustas as well they are much more niche target then lootas.
I'm not sure I get why you combine kmk with traktor cannons. You're not going to be able to hit a fmc without skyfire with the kmk blast. So your wasting 4 shots. I dunno it feels like 4 kmk and 2 traktor cannons would be more flexible. Unless I'm missing something.
grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.
True, but there is still an abundance of Ignores Cover about. Any Tau and that save is gone. And being able to extend that invulnerable to a nearby vehicle is a nice bonus.
But it all comes down to what works best for your style. Play testing is king
grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.
Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.
The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.
Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.
So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).
Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 =14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.
Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).
Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.
That is very impressive logic. I'm impressed. However, I still think you should have it to deal with fear and stop mob rule, especially if you consider how you want to hide your Warboss at the back, so his PK isn't as effective. Boyz are pretty weak fighters after the initial charge into combat. (Fire warrior strength), and fear really debilitates them. Let's just look at the change in effectiveness of 5 Boyz fighting a MEQ with and without fear in play.
Without fear (no charge benefits):
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, about .83 get through armor.
With fear:
15 attacks, 5 hits, 1.66 wounds, about .55 get through armor.
That's about 34% less effective! and so that one fear check you fail can stall the tide if you multi charge some units. Keep in mind also that some units can lower your leadership (Deldar is the only one I can think of now), and that makes it easier for you to fail morale and fear.
grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.
True, but there is still an abundance of Ignores Cover about. Any Tau and that save is gone. And being able to extend that invulnerable to a nearby vehicle is a nice bonus.
But it all comes down to what works best for your style. Play testing is king
Yeah, 100% agreed! And that's one of the reasons I'll prolly end up playing Green Tide. The Bully Boy list (clearly) still needs tweaking and testing, and with so little time left before LVO, I highly doubt I will feel comfortable enough with the list to take it instead of Green Tide.
gungo wrote:I like both of the new lists and like you I think the greentide is better for LVO whereas bullyboyz is better for adepticon.
On the greentide list I wish you could fit in more support to the the list preferably 10-15 lootas could really help with its firepower and range. It seems a lot of points are place into gunwagon tankbustas. And while I love tankbustas as well they are much more niche target then lootas.
I'm not sure I get why you combine kmk with traktor cannons. You're not going to be able to hit a fmc without skyfire with the kmk blast. So your wasting 4 shots. I dunno it feels like 4 kmk and 2 traktor cannons would be more flexible. Unless I'm missing something.
I agree it is somewhat odd, but this way both sets of artillery get to shoot at something (either flyers or ground forces). If I take the Traktor Kannons alone in one unit, they can only fire at one FMC. With two in two different units, I can potentially take down two. I agree that it potentially wastes shots, but it also means that both units of artillery will ALWAYS be able to fire at something.
It's definitely not ideal, I agree, but I'm trading efficiency for utility - both units of Artillery are flexible this way.
grendel083 wrote:Zhadshard is a nice character, but he's not really being used to his full potential in this list.
For the same points you can have a Big Mek on Blitzbike with KFF and Killsaw. The invulnerable is a nice alternative to the +1 cover, especially as you can cover a Trukk of Meganobz with it as well. You loose scout, but gain better armour pen against vehicles.
The army, I feel, already has enough armor pen (and Str 10 isn't anything to shake a stick at). Considering bikers have a 3+ cover when they jink with Zhardsnark (2+ on nightfight or with turbo-boost), I'd prefer that over a 5++ invul.
Waaagh 18 wrote:I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
I have always thought the BB wasn't necessary. Let me explain why.
The Big Bosspole is 20 points. Each boy is worth 6 points. That means you'd need to lose 3.3333 boys to make up the 20 points for the Big Bosspole.
Each time you fail a pinning or morale, you take D3+3 wounds from the tide. That's an average of 5 str 4 hits with AP -. That ends up being 2.5 wounds total. After armor saves (6+) and FNP (5+) that comes down to 1.38888 wounds for each failed morale/pinning check.
So, if I lose 1.38~ boys each time, I'd need to fail leadership 2.41 times to make up for the cost of the Bosspole. (3.333 boys divided by 1.38 wounds taken).
Leadership 9 is failed only 1/6th of the time. So, that means that only after 6*2.41 =14.46 total leadership checks would I make up the cost of the bosspole.
Taking nearly 15 morale/pinning checks with the Green Tide is very, very uncommon. FEAR checks, on the other hand, are something that I have LONG loathed and would take the Big Bosspole for, and I would love to ignore fear. OTOH, the ability to GtG in ruins for a 3+ or for a 2+ with a mysterious objective that adds 1 to my cover save could also make the difference between victory and defeat (such as holding the relic).
Again, if I had an extra 20 points laying around in this list, I would take it. However, as it is, the Tide just doesn't have the points to spare without giving something more useful up IMO.
That is very impressive logic. I'm impressed. However, I still think you should have it to deal with fear and stop mob rule, especially if you consider how you want to hide your Warboss at the back, so his PK isn't as effective. Boyz are pretty weak fighters after the initial charge into combat. (Fire warrior strength), and fear really debilitates them. Let's just look at the change in effectiveness of 5 Boyz fighting a MEQ with and without fear in play.
Without fear (no charge benefits):
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds, about .83 get through armor.
With fear:
15 attacks, 5 hits, 1.66 wounds, about .55 get through armor.
That's about 34% less effective! and so that one fear check you fail can stall the tide if you multi charge some units. Keep in mind also that some units can lower your leadership (Deldar is the only one I can think of now), and that makes it easier for you to fail morale and fear.
Yup, and now you know why I hate fear.
Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/
Fxeni wrote: Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/
It's very tight on points.
Does the second Warboss need a Bosspole? It's going to make no use until the tide is down to 10 models.
Boarding planks on the Gunwagons: do you really make long range charges with the Tankbustas?
DoomShakaLaka wrote:I love your green tide list man! I'm hoping you go all the way to 1st place at the LVO.
To think I used to think orks couldn't be competitive... Glad I was wrong!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you want ideas for lists to playtest against?
Normally, I'd love ideas - but I'm all out of time to playtest for the LVO! Perhaps for Adepticon, eh?
grendel083 wrote:
Fxeni wrote: Again, if I could find the 20 points for BB, I'd take it, but the list is already tight enough as it is. =/
It's very tight on points.
Does the second Warboss need a Bosspole? It's going to make no use until the tide is down to 10 models.
Boarding planks on the Gunwagons: do you really make long range charges with the Tankbustas?
If these aren't needed, there's your 20pts.
Second warboss has a BP so that he can join the Tankbustas in a charge if need be (especially against, say, a Knight) and keep them alive for a critical turn.
Boarding planks are friggen AMAZING for 5 points. I can't tell you how many times they've made a long distance charge happen. The 15 pts on battlewagons is meh, but the 5 points in forgeworld is golden.
I'd run a squad of stormboyz. ~10 guyz with a pk+bp nob. I often do in my games with footsloggas.
1. You field stormboyz and the opponent goes like: "Eh, stormboyz, noone fields them i guess they're another bad ork unit".
2. You explain their rules (if you want; not mandatory in tournaments unless the opponent asks you, i guess?..). And the opponent goes like: "So, they're just boyz with rokkit packs that kill themselves? Nice".
2. You run them out of harm's way - either behind blos or heavy cover - they're not so hard to hide even behind a truck not telling about a ruin.
3. You perform a ~25" charge with a bunch of boyz + pk nob and the opponent goes like: Or you fail miserably rolling a ton of , loose too many guyz to DT and fail morale running away and go like:
From my experience, they're often good as they can pull a charge at 12" + 2d6" + 2d6" with 1 reroll. With the first 12" flying over things. This alone makes them a great board controle tool especially for a greentide with every turn WAAAGH!
koooaei wrote: I'd run a squad of stormboyz. ~10 guyz with a pk+bp nob. I often do in my games with footsloggas.
1. You field stormboyz and the opponent goes like: "Eh, stormboyz, noone fields them i guess they're another bad ork unit".
2. You explain their rules (if you want; not mandatory in tournaments unless the opponent asks you, i guess?..). And the opponent goes like: "So, they're just boyz with rokkit packs that kill themselves? Nice".
2. You run them out of harm's way - either behind blos or heavy cover - they're not so hard to hide even behind a truck not telling about a ruin.
3. You perform a ~25" charge with a bunch of boyz + pk nob and the opponent goes like: Or you fail miserably rolling a ton of , loose too many guyz to DT and fail morale running away and go like:
From my experience, they're often good as they can pull a charge at 12" + 2d6" + 2d6" with 1 reroll. With the first 12" flying over things. This alone makes them a great board controle tool especially for a greentide with every turn WAAAGH!
I haven't actually been able to give Stormboyz a chance yet because I don't own any models - but man, I want to. That sounds absolutely hilarious either way.
Why don't you take a vsg with the green tide list. The way LVO rules it as long as one model is within 12in range of the vsg the entire tide is protected by the vsg. Seems pretty broken to me considering the vsg keeps repairing itself. Meaning your tide is going to be very well protected from blasts such as a wyvern which can't crack the vsg and any shooting attacks. I'm not really sold on the price of gunwagons. You can afford a vsg with just dropping the gun wagons to big trakks again. You can also get 20 points for a big boss pole by taking your powerklaw off the greentide warlord and making it a big choppa. You already state he mostly sits in the back to be safest of the time and str5+2 with furious charge is a respectable str 8 ap5 melee of needed or keep it if you want 8 klaws either way works. I think the vsg w two shields protecting the tide and the Mek guns will push your tide list into the top tier and extra av13 armour means less anti tank will be used at the big trakks.
frboals wrote:Why not aim for 1st place? Seems like you were selling yourself short.
Of course I'm aiming for 1st place, if possible! I'd just like to shoot for top 8 (or top 10%) at a minimum with the list. At that point, either way I'll consider the army a success!
gungo wrote:Why don't you take a vsg with the green tide list. The way LVO rules it as long as one model is within 12in range of the vsg the entire tide is protected by the vsg. Seems pretty broken to me considering the vsg keeps repairing itself. Meaning your tide is going to be very well protected from blasts such as a wyvern which can't crack the vsg and any shooting attacks. I'm not really sold on the price of gunwagons. You can afford a vsg with just dropping the gun wagons to big trakks again. You can also get 20 points for a big boss pole by taking your powerklaw off the greentide warlord and making it a big choppa. You already state he mostly sits in the back to be safest of the time and str5+2 with furious charge is a respectable str 8 ap5 melee of needed or keep it if you want 8 klaws either way works. I think the vsg w two shields protecting the tide and the Mek guns will push your tide list into the top tier and extra av13 armour means less anti tank will be used at the big trakks.
I like the idea of the VSG, but I've never actually tested it with the Green Tide - and I don't like going in cold to a GT with army lists that I haven't tested. VSG might see my list another time, but until I test it out in a couple games, I am not sure that I would be willing to trust it.
I'd be curious to know if other people who have run the Green Tide have had any luck with VSGs?
Dozer Blades wrote: The VSG cannot move thus making it pointless IMO for GT .
Definitely not pointless. It's basically broken for things like the tide. Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av12 regenerating shield vs shooting. I am sure you can figure out that it's not terribly hard to chain a line of Orks within 1 ft of your deployment zone. This basically makes tide immune to shooting until 1-3 av12 shields are shot down and each turn they can regenerate back up on a 5+.
And remeber all you need it for is to protect the tide until it reaches combat and then once locked in combat they are immune to shooting anyway and the vsg can still protect your Mek gunz, lootas, or whatever else is supporting your tide.
I haven't used the vsg but I was reading jyt necron nid list and they were talking about the vsg being huge for large units like greentide at the LVO and it reminded me how broken that rule was in LVO by allowing the shield to effect an entire unit as long as one model was in range. This is probably not how most people play it but it is how LVO allows it.
I'd rather play more aggressively with the Green Tide. They are a board control unit. To me the GT and VSG are assymmetrical in relation to each other.
Dozer Blades wrote: I'd rather play more aggressively with the Green Tide. They are a board control unit. To me the GT and VSG are assymmetrical in relation to each other.
I don't see how it's any less aggressive unless you consider the at max 6 ork conga line as not aggressive when the rest of the tide is in your enemy deployment zone and still covered by av13 shielding vs shooting no matter how close they are to ur tide. Heck vsg even protects against overwatch shooting. It's not without its limit since all the enemy needs to do is shoot at targets while within 12in of the vsg building to completely ignore it but that's not how the tide works and forced your opponent to run toward the tide and your deployment zone in order to do that. To be fair LVO is the only US tourney that allows the vsg and probably for good reason too.
gungo wrote: [Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.
I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.
gungo wrote: [Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.
I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.
Ya I meant you can place it up to your deployment zone line and still have another 12in range. Either way he is not bringing it since he hasn't played with it before but it's a strong setup if allowed.
gungo wrote: [Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.
I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.
Ya I meant you can place it up to your deployment zone line and still have another 12in range. Either way he is not bringing it since he hasn't played with it before but it's a strong setup if allowed.
So, it actually turns out a friend contacted me last minute for one last playtest before LVO - tomorrow morning. I will give the VSG a shot and see how it goes. Maybe I'll take it? I guess we'll see.
I think you'll really like the VSG. The most important thing about it is that it will protect your boys from small-arms fire, which is what would kill them the most.
Wow, seems like a good combo unless someone brings ranged S: D. Not that it's a super-duper all-game long protection but it definitely helps out on the first turn at least. Unfortunately, it's not so hard for the opponent to take down a bunch of av12 HP with just one round of shooting. I think, something like a group of broadsides + a little bit of something can handle it. Though, be careful cause it also offers protection for your opponent if he happens to be within 12'.
That and one high strength blast would quickly negate the shield and kill a bunch of boyz. Against a Demo Cannon you are probably only saving 1 or 2 boyz.
Geemoney wrote: That and one high strength blast would quickly negate the shield and kill a bunch of boyz. Against a Demo Cannon you are probably only saving 1 or 2 boyz.
Blasts count just as one hit to a voidshield. No matter how many models they touch. So, if a deathstrike covers 1 boy or 30 boyz, it's still just 1 hit against a void shield.
Korps of Krieg and Renegades&Heretics (as a generic renegades&heretics list is basically the same krieg artillery spam but with chaos marks) cry in corner.
It's still ~5 times easier to destroy than a 50 pt necron flying bug-spider
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you think about putting meganobz in gun wagons instead of boyz? Think they'd attract much more fire. Furthermore, you're gona get obsec trucks for boyz.
koooaei wrote: Wow, seems like a good combo unless someone brings ranged S: D. Not that it's a super-duper all-game long protection but it definitely helps out on the first turn at least. Unfortunately, it's not so hard for the opponent to take down a bunch of av12 HP with just one round of shooting. I think, something like a group of broadsides + a little bit of something can handle it. Though, be careful cause it also offers protection for your opponent if he happens to be within 12'.
I would say the idea is it protects the tide the first turn so they are immune to small arms fire and even if the shields fall down they regenerate and are able to protect the Mek Gunz until your opponent gets within 12in range of those or continue to waste shots on the shields. The other issue is the vsg will protect the tide even from overwatch and once in combat you can consolidate without fear of the tide being shot. The other thing to remeber is the vsg is still a building with battlements providing av 13 with 4+ cover. You can also drop all the ammo runts and instead take an ammo dump (reroll all 1 to hit within 2in) or ammo store (any units in the building such as a single Mek gun crew) to reroll all 1s or reroll scatters for free. The ammo dump becomes an indestructible 5+ cover as well. The ammo dump will stay even if the vsg is destroyed however the ammo store is 5points cheaper. By taking the vsg w ammo store and placing a single or 2 Mek gun crew on the battlements he saves more points as well and can reroll all scatters from kustom mega kannnons Mek gunz for the entire unit.
I tried running the Green Tide with a VSG a few months ago and found it to be pretty underwhelming. Of course it depends what's in the rest of your list as well as what your opponent has. In general I found that their heavy weapons (which aren't really that worth while for killing boys, just fire first and knock down the void shields, then their anti infantry starts clearing out the boys.
For your list in particular I think it could help somewhat with mitigating the alphastrike against vehicles, but I prob would prefer to see the points spent elsewhere as you already have.
VSGs are a little different for orks IME. I haven't faced GT with shields but the presence of so much infantry I would think means the shields just validate the opponents anti tank weaponry. Might save a wagon here n there..
The best way I've seen em used was actually with orks though. 4-5(?) units of lootas + massed grot bomms inside a void relay network.. aka thunderork dome. Boss or two and that FW dread with 4 templates performed counter assault duty. Send the lone koptas out at the end. Nasty.
I think in this case downgrading the gunwagons into big trakks gives him the points to purchase the vsg and makes his opponents now choose between firing his anti tank into his infsntry squads or his big trakks. Then he has the potential to waste anti tank shots at the greentide. Also it might protect his vehicles is he doesn't get to go first. And unless his opponent decides to shoot the av13 building the shields can regenerate and give his tide and or Mek gunz another save next turn. Either way good luck fxeni the hopes of all Orks rest upon you!!!
gungo wrote: [Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.
I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.
jy2 wrote:I think you'll really like the VSG. The most important thing about it is that it will protect your boys from small-arms fire, which is what would kill them the most.
jy2 wrote:In short, the VSG rocks! There was 1 game where I used my Tau opponent's VSG to protect my Necron deathstar unit from his own shooting.
Fxeni wrote:Wow, okay, yeah. Just got back from the game with VSG and Green Tide - and all I can say is that it WILL be finding a way inside my list. I'll post the details of the game a bit later.
So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.
So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...
Sketchyfk wrote: So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.
So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...
Where did you hear that?
Even in their own TOS tournaments I've never heard GW rule it like that.
It's certainly not what the rules say b
Game 3: 1850 Green Tide Vs. Eldar Wave Serpents w/ Lynx!
So, my opponent brought:
4x Wave Serpents
2x Bike Squads
2x Squads of Fire Dragons
2x Squads of Dire Avengers
Farseer on Bike
Warlock on Bike
Spiritseer
Skyshield
Lynx
LVO Mission 3(?):
Primary: Big Guns Never Tire
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker
A very alpha heavy build - I expect to see a lot of Lynx's (Lynxhii? Lynxhee? What's plural, here?) at the LVO. My opponent won the roll and decided to let me go first, hoping to take out objectives on the last turn.
I moved up pretty quick, and while I did basically nothing with my first turn shooting, my VSG nullified two Wave Serpents shooting! His Lynx was pretty underwhelming on my tide - he couldn't hit the Gun Wagons (they were out of LOS) and he tried taking some Artillery out, but they had cover saves that inhibited his shooting pretty well. He summoned some stuff to block me, and while that worked, it ended up giving me first blood.
Maelstrom was pretty even for most of the game (although he had a 1 pt lead most turns, give or take) up until about Turn 5. By that point, I had lost one squad of tankbustas, 1 artillery piece, some Boyz, and one Gun Wagon. I was basically able to charge everything on his board, and all he had left was 3 dire avengers on his backfield objective, a shaken Wave Serpent, his warlord sitting in a crater, and his flying Lynx. He went for the last turn steal, but was unable to knock enough boys off of objectives to take them back, and so as of turn 5, we tied on secondary while I won on Primary. That was the best he was gonna get, and we rolled turn 6 - resulting in tabling him.
The Green Tide with the VSG is BRUTAL. I was able to threaten nearly the entire board and my Grots lived through a good deal of shooting due to the VSG (along with the Tide). I'm confident this list has what it takes to perform at the LVO...the question is, do I?
End Score: VICTORY!
Orks 10 (Primary, Secondary, Slay the Warlord, Warlord, Linebreaker)
Eldar 0
And that's it folks! The next battle report you see from me will be from the LVO! Hope to see you all there, and best of luck!
Waaagh 18 wrote: I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
I'm gonna hyper-second this. A non-fearless green tide could be the cause of some epic failing. And you have to take a warboss with access to it as part of the formation, so why not for 20 points? If you're worried about challenges, don't make the BB boss your warlord. The biggest and the best rule only applies to your warlord - if you make the GT as a detachment, and the bearer of DLS your warlord - problem solved.
Sketchyfk wrote: So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.
So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...
Where did you hear that? Even in their own TOS tournaments I've never heard GW rule it like that. It's certainly not what the rules say b
I contacted the GW store in edinburgh. They don't have an offical rules hotline (which seems kinda bonkers, but hey what do you expect from a company called Games Workshop?
As someone else also said on a facebook page: think of it like the KFF. Only models within the radius of protection will get the protection. If they're outside, then they're ACTUALLY outside.
Realistically, when you think of it in terms of "real world physics" (if you can for a game like this) it does make sense. Anyone under an umbrella will be try from the rain. If you happen to be with someone who's not under the umbrella, they're gonna get wet. Maybe it will get faq'd, but as far as i can read, there's nothing in the rules that say protection conga lines work for KFFs/Cover Saves or Void Shield Zones :( If you can find text to state otherwise PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show me. I honestly LOVE this idea.
Do Orks actually have "please" in their dictionary?
The difference between kff and void shield is the kff actually states model whereas the void shield states unit. The void shield even goes on to explain if your unit is within two void shields roll to see which void shield takes the hit. Thus further confirming a shooting atk can hit a void shield outside its range as long as the unit is within that void shield. The problem is with the word unit and not model bein used whereas the kff specifically states models.
I agree that's how it should work but that's not how it's worded nor how they explain it in its own rule clarifications.
technically, the only place the void shield states the unit, if when your firing at it and they are protected by more than one shield. It doesn't say anything about what's inside or outside it.
I imagine that it depends on where you play. GW in scotland are typically against "abusing" rules where possible.
They instead let the writers make broken rules like a 4+ reanimation protocol...
Sketchyfk wrote: technically, the only place the void shield states the unit, if when your firing at it and they are protected by more than one shield. It doesn't say anything about what's inside or outside it.
I imagine that it depends on where you play. GW in scotland are typically against "abusing" rules where possible.
They instead let the writers make broken rules like a 4+ reanimation protocol...
Regardless the void shield should state model and it doesn't which I think is the main issue and why tournaments like LVO just allow it as it's written instead of trying to clarify what they think is intended. Then again every other major us tournament just bans the VSG instead of trying to decide what the intended rule would be. As in the above case I am sure fxeni would be using two or three void shields and the tide will be stretched across all three and into his opponents deployment zone and as per the rules he just needs to roll off to see which void shield takes the hits. I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way.
Remember the old kff worked the same way until the wording changed from unit to model and drastically reduced its effectiveness.
Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.
I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.
It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules.
The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".
Are you absolutely, positively sure the LVO rules the vsg that way? It would be a shame for you to deploy your army and then get an off the cuff ruling against you when your opponent complains.
That's how it was used last year you can still read battle reports on it. I honestly forgot about it till I saw jy2 battle report. I don't own the super rare gw model or have a conversion and nearly every tournament bans it except LVO which allows all forgeworld, most superheavies and most individual terrain pieces. So in the realm of broken combos it's pretty tame. It's not super hard to knock off 2-3 av12 hullpoints but it does take a dedicated anti tank unit, which of exactly the unit you dont want to waste on a tide.
I truly believe this list will do well in LVO. There are not many terrain choke points in LVO even if someone has one of the few melee units to tie up a tide they still need to crack the shoelds to get to his support. Tasty taste and fxeni both have green tides I would like to see someone do well and let Orks represent.
Good luck round 1 vs those salamanders mass flamers and meltas doesn't sound so pleasant for the tide, but I am sure you will endure.
The good thing about this setup is even if you get burnt out playing a tide at LVO you can switch to your bullyboyz the rest of the year. I hope we get a speed freak supplement soon.
Waaagh 18 wrote: I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.
I'm gonna hyper-second this. A non-fearless green tide could be the cause of some epic failing. And you have to take a warboss with access to it as part of the formation, so why not for 20 points? If you're worried about challenges, don't make the BB boss your warlord. The biggest and the best rule only applies to your warlord - if you make the GT as a detachment, and the bearer of DLS your warlord - problem solved.
The greentide isn't terribly fast the main reason you make the greentide warboss a warlord is so you can waagh every turn and move, run, charge with rerolls every turn. Mob rules is less of an issue with the tide as well because you chose which models to remove instead of losing a powerklaw. It also has hammer of wrath which most people tend to forget as well so you want to charge every turn you can. This is why I wished they gave ghaskull he ability to call waaghhh every turn even if it made his invul only 4+. It would make the tide and mega armour Orks faster and be another form of fearless and give ghaz a bit more reliable survivability instead of being slightly over costed as he is. It would of also been so cool and fluffy seeing ghaz lead a greentide in a waagh.
Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.
I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.
It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules. The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".
I think that this is probably the best argument I've seen for it. IF i can convince my local to play it this way, then I will definitely use the VGS + GT combo. No doubt. To me, I ain't going to moan at anyone using it against me. I do think it'll be an easy case for people to whine at and say no to "because it's abusing the rules". But thank you for clarifying the difference between "target = unit" and "target doesn't = models", it does help a lot.
Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.
I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.
It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules. The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".
I think that this is probably the best argument I've seen for it. IF i can convince my local to play it this way, then I will definitely use the VGS + GT combo. No doubt. To me, I ain't going to moan at anyone using it against me. I do think it'll be an easy case for people to whine at and say no to "because it's abusing the rules". But thank you for clarifying the difference between "target = unit" and "target doesn't = models", it does help a lot.
If you need to convince someone of the rules, you need to show them the following:
First the "Choosing a Target" rule in the shooting sequence. It's the sentence in Bold - you target units. Even things like Precision shots target units, then allocate against specific models.
Second is "check range" in the Shooting Sequence and "Measuring Distances" in General Principles. Measuring ranges is closest point to closest point. Again you're measuring to a unit, not a model.
In Summary: "Targets with 12"" is the same as saying "units within 12"" as targets are always units.
Hope this helps, this isn't abusing rules, this is what they actually say
Dozer Blades wrote: Wait til you run up against an army that can out assault you... And they are out there .
I'm not sure on what can more or less reliably kill enough boyz in mellee other than superheavies/gargants lucky with stomps. Maybe just wraiths + lots of flayed ones assaulting from all dirctions. Tarpit - yes, but out-assault...
LVO also nerfed invisibility and 2+ rerollable saves making most tarpits less durable. Sure harvest detschment wraiths can be durable but they have low offensive and low model count and die to weight of atks espeically once the spyder dies and the str 10 reroll to hit and wound warboss gets into combat.
Dozer Blades wrote: Wait til you run up against an army that can out assault you... And they are out there .
I'm not sure on what can more or less reliably kill enough boyz in mellee other than superheavies/gargants lucky with stomps. Maybe just wraiths + lots of flayed ones assaulting from all dirctions. Tarpit - yes, but out-assault...
Would be interesting to find out, eh.
I'll give you guys a tiny little hint.
You know one army that flat out assaults better then mine?
Another bigger, meaner, greener green tide - especially, in, say, a killpoint mission....
Are you kidding me you ended up playing another green tide? I would never have guessed that pairing.how long did that battle take? How many greentides could their possibly be at lov? It's not like Orks are a popular competitive choice lol. I'd like to see an ork list make the top 8 but that's a tough hill to climb with 256+ players and ork players facing each other.
I saw that crazy. There is only 3 undefeated players in the top 8. A very good chance the eventual winner won't be undefeated and the entire top 10 is completely diversified between many different codexs. Tau placed 10th.
I can't wait to see matts battle rep vs pj pants the one game he lost vs a tyranid and demon list with 3 tyrants, lord of change, fateweaver and another demon prince.
Sounds like people weren't happy about the void shield on the green tide lol.
You were the only ork player to make the top 50 lol. AMazing gratz
Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.
Yeah, if you and another player start arguing over a rule in a game, GW store staff are told to tell the two of you as players to roll off on it. The staff are not there to be rules lawyers. GW is pretty strong on their "we are a miniature company first, and then a gaming company"
And it shows, especially when you try to play games with certain models..
Woof! Man, what a long three days. Lotta ups, a lotta downs. The tournament was overall pretty fun, and I was busy as hell with the games, but I got a fair number of pictures for all 9 of my games!
I have finals coming up in a couple days, so it won't be until later this week that you guys will see the first battle report! So stay tuned!
Maybe I'm just a pessimist, and I don't really follow tournaments that closely, so feel free to discount me for saying this,
buuuuuuuuut.......
Isn't this proof that orks aren't competitive? At best, it's proof that orks aren't quite as uncompetitive as people like me give them credit for, but still orks got completely shut out by the big dogs - eldar, SM, demons, knights, hell even tyranids.
I mean, cheering on orks for not being utterly curb-stomped seems somewhat hollow, at best.
Nothing against the guy for playing orks at a very competitive tournament - I'm sure a green tide in a timed format was difficult, and I appreciate the effort, and a good showing at that. I'd love to see your final list and general tactics for pointers, incidentally.
But.....orks doing better than expected clearly doesn't mean they're doing well, competitively.
Well being in the top 4% is hardly bad especially since crons and plenty of others didn't make the cut. Also it's time people realized nids are top tier. 15 pt compulsory choices and under costed greater daemon equivalents do that I guess.
Edit: The above link shows the standings BEFORE the top 8 played single-elimination games to determine the ultimate winner: 'Nids (#windowlictors, if we're adopting the new hashtag).
I don't think he meant to show Orks as the most competitve army just that they can be competitve. The next closest ork player was ranked 67. And ork players as a whole was 6x less popular then eldar or space marine lists.
He just missed top8 by 1 point and at that point there was only 3 undefeated lists. this tournament had the most attendees and had nearly every major 40k player in attendance. Multiple gt winners, and winners from all over even from Europe. Also remember this he went 5-1 with his Orks and not a single person at this event went undefeated, even the eventual winner who played tyranids lost a game in the qualifier. Although he faced the same guy in the top 8 and won that game.
During round 5 fxeni greentide list was the highest ranked list. This tournament allowed all forgeworld and most lord of war options. Neither of which had any real effect on the final results. But he faced some serious competition and experienced players. I don't think you can discount how well he placed based on he didn't get curb stomped.
Saying that I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Orks are not the most competitve choice either. Just because 1 formation is decent doesn't make it a great codex. Heck CSM w demon allies made it to the top 8 and csm are not the greatest either.
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Kap'n Krump wrote: That's a good point, necrons didn't make it at all. That is surprising.
And when tyranids came out, I doubt anyone would have expected being competitive, much less winning it all. So maybe it'll get better.
Anyone know of a list of all the armies and their rankings? I only was able to find the top 8.
I think flyrants were the most popular choice
however the eventual tyranid winner lost to eldar in the championship qualifier.
He barely beat a chaos demon list in the top 8, the tyranid player and demon player tied on points but the tyranid player killed some summoned units and got extra points. The demon player also placed a self restriction on himself not to use fateweavers rerolls because when those two players faced off a year earlier at another gt the demon player mistaking used a rule to his advantage.
IMHO demons, eldar, or tyranids could have easily won the entire tourny it was that close.
Dcannon link is the correct standing of everyone that attended after 2 days and 6 games.
The top 8 ranked players then went onto a single elimination championship round. Out of those top 8 only 3 were still undefeated. The other 5 lost but were ranked by points scored during their matches. Fexni and his orcs were ranked ninth, one shy of 8th.
A single tyrrnid player made it into the top 8 with one loss and won his next three games to win the entire tournament.
Hey guys, sorry for the delay - you won't be hearing much of me for the next few days just due to exams. However, expect to hear more by this weekend and on!
Here's my final list, as requested.
LIST ONE: The Green Tide (V. Final)
* "Green Tide Formation" 94x Boyz
6x Nobz with Klaws
Can't wait to see ur battlereports but I'd have to say facing that many demons, flyrants, wraith knights, imperial Knights, dread knights. I am sure not being fearless caused a few issues if you failed that ld9 fear check. Only way to get the points for that bbp would be dropping the pk on the warlord to a big choppa or dropping the gunwagons to big Trakks or dropping one of the 3 void shields neither of which I know you wanted to do.
Would love to see your void shields. Proper ork varients and you can potential get decent cover saves for your Mek gunz on the battlements.
Would also like to know what you would change in your list if you got to try again.
Dozer Blades wrote: How do you plan to deal with the pure Maelström format ?
Gonna test out some new list ideas, maybe the green tide with modification - hard to say just yet. All I know is I will be taking Orks in one form or another.
Dozer Blades wrote: How do you plan to deal with the pure Maelström format ?
Gonna test out some new list ideas, maybe the green tide with modification - hard to say just yet. All I know is I will be taking Orks in one form or another.
Anywayz, i think greentide can do well in regular maelstorm too. Even mass drop pods won't have enough place to land. Though, explosions would be devastating. I think you can loose a greentide to a bunch of exploding pods if you charge them
The incredible strength of the Waaagh! energy emanating from this thread has drawn me in. I've never played anything except Orks and I am loving seeing them competitive at a tournament (and yes, 5 - 1 is competitive). If there was any doubt that you earned the Stompa before, it has definitely been erased!
But I have to say, when it comes to winning in tournaments, it seems to be more about the general than the list. I can't play like you. Therefore, I call for the title Grand Warlord for Fxeni and I'll follow you (and krump anyone who says otherwise)!
While he wanted one he didn't know where to shave points and felt a 103 boy blob from the ghaz book with ld9 was going to pass every pin and morale test with few casualties regardless. However I want to see his battle report because I have a feeling the one match he lost vs a demon nid player with with fatewaeaver, a greater demon, demon prince and 3 flyrants might have played a small role in that loss not to mention that the guy was being a bit difficult asking for obscure rules from judges and appeared to be playing tactically slow on purpose. You kinda have to expect that kind of play from a handful of people at these big tournaments though
personally i feel like the deffkopta is first blood bate. i would have got rid of that to get the big boss pole and generally buff other units a little more. Though, it may be the case that the deffkopta wins the game in a game, cant wait to see the reports
I watched a little coverage on front-line gaming stream of the tournament and they brought up how people were getting a little salty about the green tide formation using a voidshield generators with 1 boy within range granting the whole unit the protection of 3 HPs of AV 12. I'm going to go ahead and assume this was your list because of the inclusion of the voidshields and that no one would care if you were scrubbing out using it. So while I don't know how much that actually affected things but seems pretty janky rules useage to me. Either way, you had to have played well to place how you did so congrats are in order! Good work crushing some people in the green tide
I know he was using the Deffkopta to grab mid game objectives. He could of places it in reserves to deny first blood but that defeats the purpose of it. However the Deffkopta is so fast when turbo boosting and can ignore enough terrain and a single model has a small enough footprint that coupled with the very good terrain LVO had I am sure he was able to hide that unit if he wanted. Also don't forget one of the best things about void shields is denying first blood.
Up until that 5th rd loss fxeni had the highest ranked list based on points scored. I don't think he lost first blood often.
Honestly one of the best things about the vsg is not just the fact it throws out 3 av12 shields but that it consists of several large av13 buildings that have cover save battlements. To bad gw didn't make a plastic version it would of sold like crazy.
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Killermonkey wrote: I watched a little coverage on front-line gaming stream of the tournament and they brought up how people were getting a little salty about the green tide formation using a voidshield generators with 1 boy within range granting the whole unit the protection of 3 HPs of AV 12. I'm going to go ahead and assume this was your list because of the inclusion of the voidshields and that no one would care if you were scrubbing out using it. So while I don't know how much that actually affected things but seems pretty janky rules useage to me. Either way, you had to have played well to place how you did so congrats are in order! Good work crushing some people in the green tide
It's worded unit not model.
It's no more janky then the old kff which gave every unit in range a cover save. In fact the old kff actually was worse since people would throw the Mek into transports like a battle wagon and then it became a av14 mobile cover save on a larger model. It was a major part of 5th and 6th edition Ork lists. you didnt see many void shields because most lists in LVO consists of msu or large mc that don't really take advantage like an ork tide of 100+ boyz. So you have to laugh when the people crying about it are at the same time putting a super heavy flyer with double ranged d weapon on a landing pad so they can take advantage of a 4++, a halo field save, and a jink save on a flyer that's immune to blasts/templates and you can only snap shoot at unless you have skyfire. And you think a greentide with an av12 void shield vs shooting is janky? All people did was shimmy the Lynx around a sky shield pad for double saves it was beyond silly and nearly unkillable. The only reason Sean beat that eldar list in the top 4 was he kept throwing flyrants and mawlocs into assault with it while hoping the Lynx wouldnt get lucky with double ranged d weapon shots at his mc's.
Kap'n Krump wrote:Maybe I'm just a pessimist, and I don't really follow tournaments that closely, so feel free to discount me for saying this,
buuuuuuuuut.......
Isn't this proof that orks aren't competitive? At best, it's proof that orks aren't quite as uncompetitive as people like me give them credit for, but still orks got completely shut out by the big dogs - eldar, SM, demons, knights, hell even tyranids.
I mean, cheering on orks for not being utterly curb-stomped seems somewhat hollow, at best.
Nothing against the guy for playing orks at a very competitive tournament - I'm sure a green tide in a timed format was difficult, and I appreciate the effort, and a good showing at that. I'd love to see your final list and general tactics for pointers, incidentally.
But.....orks doing better than expected clearly doesn't mean they're doing well, competitively.
I never meant to prove that Orks are the best Codex out there. It's not terribly hard to see they aren't.
What I DID mean to prove, however, was that Orks COULD compete in the meta. Not that they were the best - just that they could also throw in with the big boys of Nids, Eldar, and Summoning.
koooaei wrote:Gendel's coughing bully boyz.
Anywayz, i think greentide can do well in regular maelstorm too. Even mass drop pods won't have enough place to land. Though, explosions would be devastating. I think you can loose a greentide to a bunch of exploding pods if you charge them
That would be hilariously fun.
gungo wrote:While he wanted one he didn't know where to shave points and felt a 103 boy blob from the ghaz book with ld9 was going to pass every pin and morale test with few casualties regardless. However I want to see his battle report because I have a feeling the one match he lost vs a demon nid player with with fatewaeaver, a greater demon, demon prince and 3 flyrants might have played a small role in that loss not to mention that the guy was being a bit difficult asking for obscure rules from judges and appeared to be playing tactically slow on purpose. You kinda have to expect that kind of play from a handful of people at these big tournaments though
Without spoiling anything from game 5, my loss had nothing to do with the BBP - but rather, some rather unfortunate circumstances involving the game and the interactions between my opponent and I.
Killermonkey wrote:I watched a little coverage on front-line gaming stream of the tournament and they brought up how people were getting a little salty about the green tide formation using a voidshield generators with 1 boy within range granting the whole unit the protection of 3 HPs of AV 12. I'm going to go ahead and assume this was your list because of the inclusion of the voidshields and that no one would care if you were scrubbing out using it. So while I don't know how much that actually affected things but seems pretty janky rules useage to me. Either way, you had to have played well to place how you did so congrats are in order! Good work crushing some people in the green tide
Eh, you gotta take that sort of thing with a little bit of salt. People complain - it's the nature of the internet. I would argue that while the VSG is good, it is hardly broken for several reasons:
1. It doesn't protect me from Psychic Powers of any kind.
2. It doesn't protect me from assault.
3. There are ways to get around it.
4. In this shooting meta, it's hardly difficult to manage 3 AV12 shots with no saves whatsoever.
5. There are WAY WAY WORSE things out there to deal with. VSG is a joke compared to summoning 2++ rerollable FMCs, or Str D shooting, or a Lynx with a 4+ and then another 4+ to neglect ANY hit, etc.
It's a tournament, people. You should expect tough lists. Mine's no exception, especially if I wanna compete!
Fxeni , you think the green tide is the only thing that can make orks competitive ?
I think you mentioned in a previous post that the green tide can be slow and not your preferred play style / list. Do you feel you could win with out it ?
I wonder if orks are just pigeon holed into green tide in order to compete with the big boys (which would be a shame =( )
Was any of the ork armies at the LVO green tides ?
It's easy to be a critic, but that big bosspole, to me, would be a #1 priority. I mean, it's not at all likely, but you'd feel pretty silly if your tide failed a morale check to shooting and had to fall back. Or hell, pinning. Or fail fear tests v. super-heavies, MCs, or demons. Insert morale complaint here. And just one flubbed test at the wrong time could be a disaster. I mean, I always put reinforced rams on my vehicles, and every so often one still gets immobilized. Odds are, eventually, the tide is going to derp out.
I mean, replace one klaw with a big choppa on just one nob and you're golden. And when it comes to it, use the big choppa nob as a throwaway challenge character first.
You can't fail morale checks or pinning tests with green tide. The ghaz supplement means you add. +3 to the roll on the mob rule table meaning at worst you lose a few boys( of your choice) Unless of course your tide is less then 10 boyz or someone killed your 9 charscters but at that point your tide is already dead.
Fear checks is really the only issue because it makes your big mean ws6-7 assaulting tide a lot weaker. And tournaments right now is heavily invested in monstrous creatures and chaos demons. That's why I wanted to know if his 5th battle report was effected by not being fearless it was a demon nid list with 6 monstrous creatures. But he didn't think it mattered.
To be fair though I agree with you. Make that greentide warboss use a big choppa and give him a bbp. You are going to sit him way in the back away from challange range because he needs to yell waagh each turn and he has a tendency to want to get himself killed by challanging everyone. It's not like his str7-8 big choppa ap5 is bad either.
I like the super cybork on warboss and Grotsnik. I've seen many a painboy and warboss get snipped out of the green tide by barrage weapons it'scrazy. =(
Kap'n Krump wrote:Maybe I'm just a pessimist, and I don't really follow tournaments that closely, so feel free to discount me for saying this,
buuuuuuuuut.......
Isn't this proof that orks aren't competitive? At best, it's proof that orks aren't quite as uncompetitive as people like me give them credit for, but still orks got completely shut out by the big dogs - eldar, SM, demons, knights, hell even tyranids.
I mean, cheering on orks for not being utterly curb-stomped seems somewhat hollow, at best.
Nothing against the guy for playing orks at a very competitive tournament - I'm sure a green tide in a timed format was difficult, and I appreciate the effort, and a good showing at that. I'd love to see your final list and general tactics for pointers, incidentally.
But.....orks doing better than expected clearly doesn't mean they're doing well, competitively.
I never meant to prove that Orks are the best Codex out there. It's not terribly hard to see they aren't.
What I DID mean to prove, however, was that Orks COULD compete in the meta. Not that they were the best - just that they could also throw in with the big boys of Nids, Eldar, and Summoning.
koooaei wrote:Gendel's coughing bully boyz.
Anywayz, i think greentide can do well in regular maelstorm too. Even mass drop pods won't have enough place to land. Though, explosions would be devastating. I think you can loose a greentide to a bunch of exploding pods if you charge them
That would be hilariously fun.
gungo wrote:While he wanted one he didn't know where to shave points and felt a 103 boy blob from the ghaz book with ld9 was going to pass every pin and morale test with few casualties regardless. However I want to see his battle report because I have a feeling the one match he lost vs a demon nid player with with fatewaeaver, a greater demon, demon prince and 3 flyrants might have played a small role in that loss not to mention that the guy was being a bit difficult asking for obscure rules from judges and appeared to be playing tactically slow on purpose. You kinda have to expect that kind of play from a handful of people at these big tournaments though
Without spoiling anything from game 5, my loss had nothing to do with the BBP - but rather, some rather unfortunate circumstances involving the game and the interactions between my opponent and I.
Killermonkey wrote:I watched a little coverage on front-line gaming stream of the tournament and they brought up how people were getting a little salty about the green tide formation using a voidshield generators with 1 boy within range granting the whole unit the protection of 3 HPs of AV 12. I'm going to go ahead and assume this was your list because of the inclusion of the voidshields and that no one would care if you were scrubbing out using it. So while I don't know how much that actually affected things but seems pretty janky rules useage to me. Either way, you had to have played well to place how you did so congrats are in order! Good work crushing some people in the green tide
Eh, you gotta take that sort of thing with a little bit of salt. People complain - it's the nature of the internet. I would argue that while the VSG is good, it is hardly broken for several reasons:
1. It doesn't protect me from Psychic Powers of any kind.
2. It doesn't protect me from assault.
3. There are ways to get around it.
4. In this shooting meta, it's hardly difficult to manage 3 AV12 shots with no saves whatsoever.
5. There are WAY WAY WORSE things out there to deal with. VSG is a joke compared to summoning 2++ rerollable FMCs, or Str D shooting, or a Lynx with a 4+ and then another 4+ to neglect ANY hit, etc.
It's a tournament, people. You should expect tough lists. Mine's no exception, especially if I wanna compete!
Don't let the haters on the internet get you down. Remember to be proud of what you've accomplished, and let they nay-saying fall by the wayside.
I personally think its great that you proved to the world that orks can cut it at the competitive level. It just takes the right general with the right list.
Bravo, and can't wait to see the batreps!
Kap'n Krump wrote:Maybe I'm just a pessimist, and I don't really follow tournaments that closely, so feel free to discount me for saying this,
buuuuuuuuut.......
Isn't this proof that orks aren't competitive? At best, it's proof that orks aren't quite as uncompetitive as people like me give them credit for, but still orks got completely shut out by the big dogs - eldar, SM, demons, knights, hell even tyranids.
I mean, cheering on orks for not being utterly curb-stomped seems somewhat hollow, at best.
Nothing against the guy for playing orks at a very competitive tournament - I'm sure a green tide in a timed format was difficult, and I appreciate the effort, and a good showing at that. I'd love to see your final list and general tactics for pointers, incidentally.
But.....orks doing better than expected clearly doesn't mean they're doing well, competitively.
I never meant to prove that Orks are the best Codex out there. It's not terribly hard to see they aren't.
What I DID mean to prove, however, was that Orks COULD compete in the meta. Not that they were the best - just that they could also throw in with the big boys of Nids, Eldar, and Summoning.
koooaei wrote:Gendel's coughing bully boyz.
Anywayz, i think greentide can do well in regular maelstorm too. Even mass drop pods won't have enough place to land. Though, explosions would be devastating. I think you can loose a greentide to a bunch of exploding pods if you charge them
That would be hilariously fun.
gungo wrote:While he wanted one he didn't know where to shave points and felt a 103 boy blob from the ghaz book with ld9 was going to pass every pin and morale test with few casualties regardless. However I want to see his battle report because I have a feeling the one match he lost vs a demon nid player with with fatewaeaver, a greater demon, demon prince and 3 flyrants might have played a small role in that loss not to mention that the guy was being a bit difficult asking for obscure rules from judges and appeared to be playing tactically slow on purpose. You kinda have to expect that kind of play from a handful of people at these big tournaments though
Without spoiling anything from game 5, my loss had nothing to do with the BBP - but rather, some rather unfortunate circumstances involving the game and the interactions between my opponent and I.
Killermonkey wrote:I watched a little coverage on front-line gaming stream of the tournament and they brought up how people were getting a little salty about the green tide formation using a voidshield generators with 1 boy within range granting the whole unit the protection of 3 HPs of AV 12. I'm going to go ahead and assume this was your list because of the inclusion of the voidshields and that no one would care if you were scrubbing out using it. So while I don't know how much that actually affected things but seems pretty janky rules useage to me. Either way, you had to have played well to place how you did so congrats are in order! Good work crushing some people in the green tide
Eh, you gotta take that sort of thing with a little bit of salt. People complain - it's the nature of the internet. I would argue that while the VSG is good, it is hardly broken for several reasons:
1. It doesn't protect me from Psychic Powers of any kind.
2. It doesn't protect me from assault.
3. There are ways to get around it.
4. In this shooting meta, it's hardly difficult to manage 3 AV12 shots with no saves whatsoever.
5. There are WAY WAY WORSE things out there to deal with. VSG is a joke compared to summoning 2++ rerollable FMCs, or Str D shooting, or a Lynx with a 4+ and then another 4+ to neglect ANY hit, etc.
It's a tournament, people. You should expect tough lists. Mine's no exception, especially if I wanna compete!
More importantly than any of that. The VSG was clearly ruled on before the tournament started. They laid how out they were playing it and they were allowing it. Someone complaining about anyone using it as FLG intended is simply a poor sport.
Green Tide has some liabilities such as getting bogged down in assault for several turns. It requires skill to play well and a good go to choice for Orks.
Dozer Blades wrote: Green Tide has some liabilities such as getting bogged down in assault for several turns. It requires skill to play well and a good go to choice for Orks.
I agree, IA8 is supposedly getting a refresh soon. I believe the next book. That just might make the dread mob list better and it's not half bad now but I am unsure how competitve that list would be considering walkers need a lot of help.
I am hoping for a speed freak supplement because bikers, deffkoptas, buggies, and trakks are really good units. A few decent formations and that could be a very competitve list as well.
But they've ruled VSG this way themselves! It's like going to LVO and complaining that it's in Las Vegas and not in your hometown. Your Hometown Open - YHO.
koooaei wrote: But they've ruled VSG this way themselves! It's like going to LVO and complaining that it's in Las Vegas and not in your hometown. Your Hometown Open - YHO.
But...but...but... That IS my biggest complaint! Can't they move Vegas closer?
Would cost me about £1000 ($1.5k at today's rate) to attend. Not that I've looked at costs or anything...
Well, I'm done with my finals - so you guys know what THAT means!
Las Vegas Open 2015: Game 1
Woof man, Vegas is stressful. I'm not much of a gambler or a drinker, but I am (obviously) big into 40k, so I am nervous for this tournament! It's my first time at the LVO, and if it is anything like I suspect it is, I imagine it to be like Adepticon - highly competitive. After looking around at the tables, I'm seeing a LOT of Nids, Knights, and Eldar....and no Orks. Go figure.
But hey, that's why I'm here, isn't it? I want Orks to REPRESENT BOYEEEE. I wanna make the army proud and show the meta that Orks have what it takes to krush, to krump, and to kick ass!
For those of you who aren't familiar, the missions for LVO work like this:
There are 10 points earnable by either player.
You get 4 points if you win primary, which is usually some modified form of Killpoints, objectives, the relic, etc.
You get 3 points if you win Maelstrom, which is based on a mini-chart from 1-6 of things like "kill a unit" or "Get into your opponent's deployment edge", that sort of thing. These vary from mission to mission.
Finally, there are 3x 1 point objectives which you can obtain from First Blood, Linebreaker, and Warlord, for a total of 10 points. Whoever has more points wins that mission!
Here's one last reminder of my list:
LIST ONE: The Green Tide (V. Final)
* "Green Tide Formation" 94x Boyz
6x Nobz with Klaws
Under the rules of the LVO, you can challenge (aka mutually pick) your first round opponent, who was originally supposed to play Doktor_g for round 1 - the Dakkaite who made the Table-Flip challenge in the first place! I was initially skeptical of playing him since I am a highly competitive player and he mostly plays for gaks and giggles, and I would have felt bad if one of us had taken each other out of the running. However, he insisted we play, so we tried setting up the game. However, there was some snafu in the data entry, and as a result, we were not matched up. C'est la vie.
Instead, I get another table, and my mysterious first challenger is....
Shane “Khronos” Finley's Astra Militarum!
Hist list (From memory, as I appear to have lost his list
CCS w/ 4x Snipers and Officer of the Fleet
Commissar
Priest
10x Man Vet Squad w/ 2 Plasma guns in Chimera
10x Man Vet Squad w/ 2 Plasma guns in Chimera
30x Man Platoon Squad w/ 2 Axes
1x Wyvern
1x Wyvern
1x Vendetta
1x Avenger Strike Fighter
1x Vulture Gunship w/ Punisher Cannons
Baneblade
Mission:
Primary: Emperor's Will
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Pre-Game Thoughts: Shane was a very charming guy, and a very fun opponent. However, he did bring a list that gave me concern upon initial blush. Wyverns are a problem because they can (potentially) snipe out my characters, although there are only two of them. The vulture Gunship will be great at shooting down my Green Tide, and the Baneblade's large blast will also take down a number of models as well. My best bet with Shane is to hit him hard, and hit him fast - the quicker I can get into his back lines the better.
Fortunately, there is a large amount of cover at LVO - which will help me avoid his shooting for a time.
Shane wins the roll to go first and deploys first. He spreads his Wyverns out behind LOS, his platoon up front, and his Wyverns and his Baneblade on the left Flank to support each other.
I spread my tide out as much as possible to avoid the blasts, and place my VSG behind the ruins on the left to give it a cover save should needs be. The Tankbustas also deploy behind the ruins near the VSG in the Gunwagons as well. The Artillery deploy in the ruins on the right. However, I make a SERIOUS deployment mistake, which you can see in this picture....anyone notice it? Bonus points if you do.
I don't recall if I attempted to seize or not, but if I did, I failed. Shane takes the first turn, and moves his Baneblade up 6" to get his shots in with ALL of his guns.
Have you figured out the HUGE deployment mistake I made yet? Give up? I'll tell you:
Spoiler:
Notice the gretchin clumped up inside of the crater in the bottom left of the picture? I TOTALLY FORGOT THAT WYVERNS IGNORE COVER. OOPS.
So, Shane naturally capitalizes on this (hell, I would have too!) After shooting off the VSG with his Baneblade and the Chimeras, he goes for it with his Wyvern (the other was out of range) Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for my opponent, his dice rolls this whole game were ABYSMAL, and he scatters completely off the board, even with the reroll! Lucky me! Thus, his turn ends rather uneventfully.
However, now it is my turn to capitalize on a mistake Shane made - moving his 6" closer to my Tankbustas.
I move up, get them out, and take a potshot with both squads of the Tankbustas, doing a single HP. The rest of the Green Tide moves up as well, and runs to get closer. The Artillery takes some shots at his guys, but don't do much.
I then attempt to charge the Baneblade with my Tankbustas. With the Boarding Planks, one squad needs a 6" charge (8" away), and the other one needs an 8" (10" away).
What happens?
Spoiler:
One squad makes it, but that's all it takes. 9 Tankbustas, 8 of em hit, and the whole thing goes nuclear! Since the LVO counts every 3 HP on a Super Heavy as a Maelstrom point, I get FIRST BLOOD, an extra Maelstrom point because of Glory Hogs from Tankbustas, one point from earning a maelstrom mission, and 3 maelstrom points for doing 9 HP! That means that in this turn, I got 5 Maelstrom points PLUS FIRST BLOOD!
Shane isn't down and out yet, though - far from it. With his Officer of the Fleet, he rolls on ALL three flyers ... ouch!
You can see my tide is midfield, and the Baneblade on the left is dead. His chimeras are still in the far back, as are his Wyverns, and Shane needs to keep me back. He decides to go for a high risk, high reward decision - after shooting, which is relatively uneventful (although he wipes out my Tankbustas ) he charges in his platoon of 30 guys with his priest and commissar.
We roll into combat, and Shane isn't hoping to win - merely to hold me over for a turn so he can get another shot at shooting me before I hit his lines.
Spoiler:
However, Shane's dice just aren't on his side... he fails to make his ld7 hymn for the priest to reroll saves, and I do enough wounds to kill off the priest and the commissar. The platoon then falls back without their fearless or stubborn support, and my tide consolidates EVEN FURTHER into his field.
Mid Game:
Things are looking grim for Shane. Although he killed off my Tankbustas (which was mainly my anti-air), his transports are empty, and even with the vulture, can only kill so many models a turn. Furthermore, I declare my WAUUUGHH and get a good run roll - allowing me to basically charge his entire line! One Chimera, the remaining platoon men, one Wyvern, and his Company Command Squad in the ruins all get hit.
Shane's dice just aren't on his side for his saves either....this was his roll on his CCS.
It's kinda blurry to tell, but all of those were his saves - and all but 2 of them were 1's. Poor Shane is just having no luck against me, although he claimed that was pretty normal for him.
I win combat by a MASSIVE amount, meaning that Shane's testing on double ones to not fall back. His Wyvern and Chimera both exploded, killing several guys, and his CCS is down to a single model - his commander - with ONE wound left.
Spoiler:
And what does his Company Commander roll for his Ld? Double 1's.
That's right. His single model rolls double 1's against my tide, keeping the ENTIRE tide in combat for Shane's ENTIRE turn - meaning he can't shoot ANY of it with his Flyers, his remaining Wyvern, or ANYTHING else. In addition, there isn't ANY way his Commander will survive this round of combat, so he'll free me up just in time for me to charge again!
Poor Shane is just shaking his head at all of this, but he's being a hell of a good sport about it too - laughing the whole time!
At this point, we call it. It's only top of 3, but Shane's renaming ground forces are in total disarray, and the remainder of what he has (with the exception of his flyers) are going to get wiped out by the tide on the next turn. I'm crushing him on Maelstrom, I already have First Blood, and Linebreaker is obvious with him having no good way to take the rest of my models down.
As a result:
Orks take Primary.
Orks take Secondary.
Orks have First Blood, Linebreaker, and Warlord.
We agree Shane could have just flown around the board for the rest of the game and just gone into hover on the last game turn, so we give him Linebreaker.
Orks takes it, 10-1.
After-Game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Poor Shane just couldn't catch a break on this game. It started downhill when he moved his Baneblade forward 6", which was a mistake IMHO, but his dice just wouldn't cooperate from there. However, he was easily my favorite opponent at the tournament for being such a good sport - I know many people who would be very upset at a dice situation like that (myself included!) However, aside from that, I don't think Shane really had the firepower to take down the tide, so it was a rough matchup as soon as I was able to get some momentum on him. On hammer and Anvil, however, this could have been a very different game.
So, I'm currently at a max of 10 points. A pretty good start for the Orks, but it's only the first game! From here, it's only uphill and more difficult challenges. I'm shooting for top 8 (or at least top 10% of the field), but I have a looooooooooong way to go from here. On the bright side, the next two missions are extremely advantageous for my army: Game 2 is KP (which Green Tide excels at) and Game 3 is relic (Which, again, the Tide is also good at). As a result, I am very optimistic about my next match....but BOY OH BOY, WAS I WRONG ABOUT THAT - as you'll soon see.
What an unfortunate slaughter! I mean, it's absolutely great for you! But the game could have been much more fun. Still, tournaments are no place for fun Well played and congrats on the first victory! The ominous reference to the next game has me on the edge of my seat!
I'm very excited to read the rest of your reports, I would love it if you could write some of your thoughts about the best placement of the Void Shield Generator as well (I plan on adding one to my Renegade & Heretics army, since, you know, it's the one army that does hordes better than Orks )
Thanks for sharing these, and I hope your exams went well.
I know your tankbustas were the main anti air and stars here but did your traktor kannons do anything for the anti air?
I was thinking maybe you could have done one squd of 2 smasha kannons and a traktor and another squad of two kmk and a traktor kannon maybe? I dunno something maybe to synchronize them better.
Did your void shield regenerate enough between turns to help the tide? With the bane blade down he needs to rely on str 6 multi lasers which isn't great and The vulture and wyverns can do jack to av12 shields!
GrafWattenburg wrote:I'm very excited to read the rest of your reports, I would love it if you could write some of your thoughts about the best placement of the Void Shield Generator as well (I plan on adding one to my Renegade & Heretics army, since, you know, it's the one army that does hordes better than Orks )
Thanks for sharing these, and I hope your exams went well. !
Typically I either (A) placed it as far forward or possible or (B) placed it as far BACK as possible.
A is for situations where I am moving forward and my opponent is not (e.g. AM gunline, Tau, Eldar, etc.) They will never be in range (12") of the VSG to ignore my VSG, and if they are, I'm totally okay with this because it's also charge range!
B is for situations where my opponent will be playing aggressive and moving forward (e.g. FMC spam, Knights, White Scars). I try to keep it on my board edge, screened in 12" in all direction to prevent them from ignoring my VSG - I want to negate as many shots as I can!
gungo wrote:I know your tankbustas were the main anti air and stars here but did your traktor kannons do anything for the anti air?
I was thinking maybe you could have done one squd of 2 smasha kannons and a traktor and another squad of two kmk and a traktor kannon maybe? I dunno something maybe to synchronize them better.
Did your void shield regenerate enough between turns to help the tide? With the bane blade down he needs to rely on str 6 multi lasers which isn't great and The vulture and wyverns can do jack to av12 shields!
Actually, although I didn't write about it, the Traktor Kannons took down the Vendetta in Turn 2. Lucky shot! However, for the rest of the games, while they would often make my opponent jink, it rarely caused the death of a flyer. As for my thoughts on the Mek Gunz, I will do an after-tournament report on them describing each unit and my grade on them, same as I did in the last battle report thread for the Renegade.
The VSG regenerating shields helped a couple times (mostly as icing on the cake), but it was rarely effective after the first turn or two. Taking down AV12 isn't hard, especially when you only have 1 or 2 shields left. That's why I'm confused as heck as to why people are mad about the Green Tide + VSG - it's not hard to take down, people! Hell, I faced two of them in the remaining 5 games!
No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
Orock wrote: No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
I know what you mean, but it's litterally what the rules for it say. There's no exploiting.
A balance issue maybe, but not an exploit.
They've already FAQ'd the Projected Void Shield (in regard to Blasts and Templates) but kept the way it interacts with units the same. One can only assume it's working as intended.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: How does the shield work ? I know it's 3 armor 12 shields. Can all the shields be brought down by a single unit ?
Example would a broadside team witb missle pods drop all 3 shields ? Or to they just hit one shield ?
or is this case did the baneblade drop 1 shield or several ?
Yes a single unit can take down several shields. You just need to pen/glance AV12 3 times and you're through. Baneblade could go through all of them and still hit hit the unit with a Blast.
Was that how he played it ? In his report he said the bane blade and chimeras dropped all the shields. Seems like the baneblade could have done it alone.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Was that how he played it ? In his report he said the bane blade and chimeras dropped all the shields. Seems like the baneblade could have done it alone.
Sounds like he was having bad dice. The Chimeras need 6's to glance with their multilasers, so they would probaly struggle to take down all three.
Ideally the Baneblades Lascannons could have taken down the remaining before the Blasts were fired.
Orock wrote: No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
BTW, the ruling for the LVO with regards to VSG is not unique. It has been ruled that way ever since Adepticon 2014 (last year) and any of the tournaments that followed the Adepticon FAQ's.
Orock wrote:No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
Eh, I can understand the sentiment, but the Tide RARELY if ever got the benefit of the VSG past turn 1 or 2, as it only regenerates on a 5+, and by that time, I'm in combat. While I can understand the ridiculousness of it from a sensical standpoint, you're also complaining about one weird ruling in a game that allows Eldar Farseers to summon Daemonettes and Lords of Change.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:How does the shield work ? I know it's 3 armor 12 shields. Can all the shields be brought down by a single unit ?
Example would a broadside team witb missle pods drop all 3 shields ? Or to they just hit one shield ?
or is this case did the baneblade drop 1 shield or several ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does the shield work ? I know it's 3 armor 12 shields. Can all the shields be brought down by a single unit ?
Example would a broadside team with missle pods drop all 3 shields ? Or to they just hit one shield ?
Or in this case did the baneblade drop 1 shield or several ?
A unit of broadsides would roll their pen rolls, one at a time, until the shield went down. Therefore, if they had 10 hits, and the first three rolled a 12 to pen, then the other 7 hits would go towards the original target (such as the green tide or what have you).
grendel083 wrote:
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Was that how he played it ? In his report he said the bane blade and chimeras dropped all the shields. Seems like the baneblade could have done it alone.
Sounds like he was having bad dice. The Chimeras need 6's to glance with their multilasers, so they would probaly struggle to take down all three.
Ideally the Baneblades Lascannons could have taken down the remaining before the Blasts were fired.
The chimeras shot and took off 2 shields, I think. Then the baneblade fired and took off the last one with one of its lascannons before it went to town on my tide with its blasts.
jy2 wrote:
Orock wrote: No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
BTW, the ruling for the LVO with regards to VSG is not unique. It has been ruled that way ever since Adepticon 2014 (last year) and any of the tournaments that followed the Adepticon FAQ's.
And this Adepticon for that matter, too! Speaking of, Jy2, are you heading to Adepticon this year?
Fxeni wrote: The chimeras shot and took off 2 shields, I think. Then the baneblade fired and took off the last one with one of its lascannons before it went to town on my tide with its blasts.
This is actually an interesting side benefit of Void Shields that I've noticed--it seems to be a psychological thing, but people don't tend to view dropping the VSG as actually "gaining" anything tactically (because it's not really killing a model, doesn't get you First Blood, might regen, etc) and tend to use their least-valuable shooting in order to drop it, with the expectation of saving their "good" shooting for the stuff underneath the VSG after they drop it.
This means any S6-7 they have available to them gets chucked into the VSG and they hope they get lucky and drop it without having to dedicate their heavier weaponry. Chimeras are a super common one, but I've actually had Marine players shoot Thunderfires into the thing--that's one hit per shot (so four hits) due to the FAQ--on multiple occasions against different players.
In practice, this tends to result in your VSG eating a metric ton of S6-7 weapons, frequently not dropping, and them still being forced to fire their big stuff at it. So just like the above situation, he could have dropped the shield with the Baneblade and then fired the lesser stuff into the Orks...but instead he tried to drop the shield with the lesser stuff, failed, and had to fire the Baneblade into it anyway. In this case it sounds like it worked out alright (because it still dropped early enough for the Baneblade to fire its blasts into the Orks), but with only two Chimeras, he got rather lucky in dropping two shields prior to the Baneblade.
I can second the psychological bit. When I first played against a VSG (supporting an AdLance and Imperial Guard), I didn't want to 'waste' my S8 (Pulse Lasers--Hornets). So, I tried to bring them down with S6/7 from Wave Serpents and preserve the Hornets for shooting at the AdLance. Granted, had I rolled well for the number of shots with the Serpent Shield, I would have been nearly guaranteed to drop the VSG. However, I rolled low and couldn't produce 6's with the Scatter Lasers or 5's/6's with the shield.... I went on to lose.
Subsequently, I faced a Tyranid list supported by a VSG, in Hammer and Anvil deployment (which is almost always for a shooty army). I deployed a pair of Hornets on the board, something I rarely do, for the express purpose of dropping the shields. I went on to win.
Granted, those decisions in the respective games aren't the only reasons I lost/won, but they certainly reflect the proper way to approach a VSG supported army: Shoot your high strength stuff at it to drop the shields, then shoot what they were protecting with your lower strength (and hopefully higher volume) stuff.
Do i still get bonus points if i thought there were boyz and not grots in the crater? Cause i though: "why would you put part of GT in terrrain when it's possible not to".
Orock wrote: No offense to you, I want to see orks do really well just as much as anyone else, but this seems exploitive. They specifically nerfed the KFF to avoid this kind of thing. They never intended the void shield generator bubble to cover 7/8ths of the board, and I am suprised it wasen't ruled that way honestly. It just seems like another oopsie in a long line of GW mistakes. I am curious though, if you had to run orks in a tournament again, and they DID rule that void shields couldnt extend past the 12 inches, how would you change up your list?
Looking at his earlier post he didn't even know the VSG worked that way and was just going to roll without one.
Started using it when it was explained how it would work.
jy2 wrote:Nope, but I am planning to go to either the ATC or Nova.
Ah, bummer! Some friends of mine invited me to go to the ATC - I don't know much about it though.
koooaei wrote:Do i still get bonus points if i thought there were boyz and not grots in the crater? Cause i though: "why would you put part of GT in terrrain when it's possible not to".
Haha, fair enough! Points for you.
doktor_g wrote:Nice meeting you at the LVO, Matt. Enjoy the stompa!
I'm looking forward to hearing what happened with the game 5? It looked (sounded) contentious.
See you in the trenches... someday.
Yeah, game 5 was... well, unfortunate for both of us. (though especially me )
It was great to see you though, Dok! Do you plan on coming to any other tournaments this year, like Adepticon, Bugeater, etc? I never got a chance to buy you that drink!
Mr.T wrote:How do you deal with disordered charge against vehicles while you have no benefit from furious charge?
Well, typically I have enough klaws to make up for the loss of str 3. However, in addition, boyz all now come standard with frag grenades, so in a pinch, they can always use that at str 4 - even though it's only one attack each!
Edit: Whoops, I just realized that the frag grenades at str 4 isn't a thing. My bad. Oh well, it only came up in 1 game (a highlander game) and made no difference - shame on me, though.
Well, it's been a good start - I'm at the 10 pt maximum so far, and I'm feeling optimistic...the next match is KP, and Green Tide is GREAT at KP. In fact, the only thing that I can think of that is even HARDER to kill then MY Green Tide is -
Marc Parker's GREEEEEEEEN TIIIIIIDE!
His List:
Warboss on Bike w/ Finkin Kap (Warlord)
Grotsnik
2x Grot Squad
VSG w/ 3 shields
Green Tide w/ 143 Boyz (40 have 'eavy armor)
8 Nobz w/ Klaws
Warboss w/ Klaw
Mission:
Primary: Purge the Alien
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Vanguard Strike.
.......................well, gak. Pre-Game Thoughts: Holy melon-fething son of a grot herding son of a git. Are you fething kidding me?
Marc's list is basically my nightmare come to life:
1. He has 1.5 the number of boys I do in his Green Tide.
2. He has more KLAWS then me too.
3. His tide has 'Eavy Armor on 40x guys - meaning even WITHOUT his numerical advantage, his tide is gonna be much harder to kill.
4. He has basically nothing I can take from him in terms of Killpoints, besides his TWO grot squads. His green tide will absolutely obliterate my green tide in a fair fight.
5. If by some friggen miracle I end up doing more damage to his tide and start winning in numbers and I ever outnumber him, his entire Green Tide will get Rampage due to Grotsnik, and all of them will get an average of an additional 2 attacks. That's an extra 300 attacks!
6. He ALSO has the Void Shield Generator, which is going to largely nullify most of my shooting.
So, of all of the players at LVO, I end up playing another Ork player with Green Tide on round 2, where the objective is Killpoints, and he has essentially only 3 things to kill - furthermore, his tide is WAY more brutal then mine. In addition, remember that a tide is worth 11 KP when killed - if Marc kills mine, there is literally no way for me to win on KP unless I table him.
On the outside, I'm calm and composed. On the inside, I'm screaming about how the hell I am going to win this one.
Well.... at least on the bright side, we'll both get to roll tons of dice, eh?
Marc wins the roll to go first and deploys first, hoping to gain as much momentum as possible to catch me as quick as he can.
JUST LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF BOYS. IT MAKES MY TIDE LOOK TEENY WEENY.
Marc deploys quick. VSG in the back, grots next to it, and Tide spread alone his entire board edge. He then gives me the opportunity to deploy, and all I can do is just stare at the board and analyze the situation, again trying to scrounge up SOME idea of how I can win this match.
Marc is patient as the cogs in my skull sloooooowly turn, and I come up with the only possibility that I see out of this: I need to end the game while my Tide is alive and tying up his tide. In other words, I need to kill his Grots, and hope that my tide survives until the end of the game, so I can win on KP 2-0.
So, I deploy in one giant ball (Marc literally has NO shooting) so that I can get off as many attacks as possible against Marc when charged / charging.
Here's my game plan:
First of all, Tankbustas aren't going to do me any favors in this matchup. It's extra bodies in close combat, sure, but it's also easily gained KP if Marc swings at them. As such, their job is going to be to rush up to the gretchin when possible (they're the most mobile unit I have in my army) and kill them for the KP.
Second, the Mek Guns are going to sit and plink away with blasts and try to kill as many boys as possible before he hits my lines.
Third, my tide is going to sit in a large cluster in the ruins and try to bait Marc forward, but also sit at the edge of charge range. Marc doesn't have the warboss of his Green Tide as his warlord, so he only gets one WAAAGH this game. As such, I have the mobility advantage, and it is CRITICAL that I get the charge off on him to try to even out the fight. If Marc hits me with 150 furious charging boys with 'eavy armor to my 100 boys without, I'm in deep, deep trouble.
So, after deployment, the match looks like this:
The Tankbustas are on the left, waiting to go around the tide when possible to kill the grots. The Mek Gunz are on the right on the hill so they can get clear LOS. My tide sits in the ruins, at about 24", ready to charge Marc when given the chance.
I roll to seize the initiative (any extra turn of shooting is key!) and....
Spoiler:
No such luck. I roll a 1. Bad start.
Marc moves up and runs his tide, sitting at about 18" away from me after his run. Because I deployed on his flank, he's trying to get his boys all over to the side where my green tide is so he doesn't lose attacks.
Meanwhile, I move back a few inches (just enough to sit at about 24") and shoot him.
The tankbustas take out the VSG's shields, and the Mek Gunz go to town with blasts. I kill maybe 10-20 boyz...which isn't nearly enough.
On Turn 2, Marc moves up again. Again, I move back and shoot him, and kill another 10-20 boyz. I'm now running low on space to back up with, and I'm sitting at the very edge of Marc's charge range.
By Turn 3, I'm actually starting to gain some confidence. Marc doesn't have the mobility (or the MSU) to win on Maelstrom, so I'm winning there. I'm also whittling down his tide a fair amount with my shooting. I have the Lucky Stikk, whereas Marc does not, so I'm WS5 vs his WS4 - meaning I hit him on 3's. If I can get the charge off, I might just have this!
Marc realizes this and realizes that his tide is losing bodies, and at a rate that isn't sustainable. After some debate, he declares his one-time-use WAAGGH, and decides to try and go for the charge on me.
I'm sitting at about 21" away, including through ruins, which means that Marc will lose -2 inches when he tries to charge me through terrain. It's do or die time, baby! That means that Marc needs 23" of movement to hit my tide!
Marc moves his 6". If he rolls anything less then a 5, he automatically can't make the charge.
Spoiler:
Marc moves his 6", and gets a 6" run. Good for him, bad for me.
He then tries to charge....
Spoiler:
Marc rolls an 8 (a 6 and a 2), and I breathe a sigh of relief. I have a chance now!
Spoiler:
And then Marc rerolls his 2 with 'Ere we go, and gets a 6. Boxcars. Marc makes his 12" charge!
I guarantee the entire hall heard the cry that came from Marc. He probably jumped 3 feet into the air after seeing that.
I overwatch, but it is pitiful, and my Tide is now stuck in combat with a much bigger, better, meaner, stronger tide.
This just got really, really, really bad.
You can just see the carnage here. Boyz EVERYWHERE. While the combat was going on, the Tankbustas went around and went ahead and did their job of killing the Grots in Marc's backfield, putting me up 2 KP to his 0.
And for the rest of the game, all that was done was just dice. Dice EVERYWHERE. It was the top of 3, and the combat went until the top of 5, meaning 5 rounds of combat with 200+ guys hitting each other, then rolling to wound, then rolling saves, then rolling FNP. Me and Marc did some quick math - we rolled somewhere around 10,000 dice. Literally thousands and thousands of dice were rolled.
Basically, the combat broke down like this. Marc had me in bodies, number of attacks, and in saves, but my Lucky Stikk was CLUTCH. Hitting Marc on 3's was HUGE, and it singlehandedly allowed me to do a ton of damage to his tide.
The final result?
Spoiler:
At the top of 5, my Tide was finally wiped out to the last man.
Marc is down to around 15 boyz and his Warboss Warlord.
Grotsnik, all of his Nobz, all of his 'eavy armor boyz, and his other Warboss are all dead.
So, Marc is now WAY up on KP - he has something like 12 KP, while I only have 4 (The two grot squads, grotsnik, and one warboss).
However, not all is lost - I have one last chance to shoot him off the board.
Spoiler:
I shoot Marc with EVERYTHING I have. Mek Gunz, Gretchin, the Gunwagons, and even the Tankbustas all go at him - I take his warboss down to a single wound, and kill all but 5 boyz, leaving Marc with 6 guys left on the board. However, he needs to roll Ld, or he'll run away!
Spoiler:
However, Marc passes his Ld and stays put. Damn!
Spoiler:
So, at this point, I need the game to continue. If not, I will lose the game. Marc has Primary, I have Secondary, I have first blood, he has Slay the Warlord, and we both have linebreaker.
We roll the dice and.....
Spoiler:
It's a 4! YES! I HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE!
Marc decides he wants to avoid the rest of my shooting, so he moves his squad over to my two grot squads, which are close together (sorry for no picture). He wants to fight me in combat and stay there so he can't get shot by my tankbustas or my Mek Gunz..
He charges me, and I fire overwatch. 20 grots, impressively, do 3 wounds, and Marc loses 3 boyz - down to 2 boyz and a warboss with a single wound.
He makes his charge, and my grots and runtherders strike him. I roll, hitting on 4's, and wounding on 6's. And....I roll 3 wounds.
Marc proceeds to roll his saves and....
Spoiler:
Fails them all, rolling 5's for his boyz and a 1 for his warboss.
Marc is tabled by Gretchin. With the death of Marc's green tide that means:
I win Primary.
I win Secondary
I get Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, and First Blood.
Holy gak, I won that? I thought that as soon as Marc charged me that was GG. However, the Lucky Stikk was absolutely CLUTCH in doing damage to him and whittling down his tide. In addition, being lucky enough to go to turn 6 absolutely saved my bacon! Who the hell would have thought that charging two grot squads would have meant the end of his Warboss and Boyz?!?
To be fair, my tankbustas were close enough to charge in at the bottom of the turn in case they needed to, so it may not have mattered, but I was STILL UTTERLY AMAZED that I was able to pull that out.
Marc was a good sport about it, though - even knowing that victory barely slipped through his fingers, he was laughing with me over the sheer ridiculousness of the entire game. And perhaps the karma of the dice at the end of the game happened to make up for the fact that Marc was able to make his 12" charge, eh?
Well, that was an incredible game! I'm still at max points (20/20) and undefeated, and after playing another Green Tide (of all things) during round 2, I really have no idea what to expect for round 3! All I can do is wait, hope, and pray to Gork and Mork that my good luck continues!
I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
Geemoney wrote: I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
No, I think this shows that in a GT vs GT, a lucky stikk is key.
Geemoney wrote: I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
No, I think this shows that in a GT vs GT, a lucky stikk is key.
No the Lucky Stikk tide lost the fight, but it was okay because the rest of his army was able to clean up. In addition while the two tides were fighting the fast/shooty parts of the army took care of everything else.
Geemoney wrote: I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
No, I think this shows that in a GT vs GT, a lucky stikk is key.
No the Lucky Stikk tide lost the fight, but it was okay because the rest of his army was able to clean up. In addition while the two tides were fighting the fast/shooty parts of the army took care of everything else.
The lucky stikk tide lost the fight after killing all but ~15 models, who were cleaned up by gretchins.
with both tides tied (hurr hurr) at 5ws, you can bet the models remaining in the larger green tide would not have been diminished sufficiently for a few cowardly grots to finish it off.
Geemoney wrote: I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
No, I think this shows that in a GT vs GT, a lucky stikk is key.
No the Lucky Stikk tide lost the fight, but it was okay because the rest of his army was able to clean up. In addition while the two tides were fighting the fast/shooty parts of the army took care of everything else.
The lucky stikk tide lost the fight after killing all but ~15 models, who were cleaned up by gretchins.
with both tides tied (hurr hurr) at 5ws, you can bet the models remaining in the larger green tide would not have been diminished sufficiently for a few cowardly grots to finish it off.
I am NOT saying that the lucky stikk wasn't important. I am saying that it did NOT win the game. What won the game was having stronger shooting and more options on the field; that and good playing.
Losing 15 models to a few cowardly grots was a fluke, and I would not count on it happening twice.
What lost the game was an error in drawing up the army list. the stikk is a practically mandatory choice for GT if you have an HQ artifact slot open, which he did. It's about as bad as going without a painboy. Furthermore I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord. None of the strategic traits are worth not waaagh'ing every turn.
pickled_heretic wrote: What lost the game was an error in drawing up the army list. the stikk is a practically mandatory choice for GT if you have an HQ artifact slot open, which he did. It's about as bad as going without a painboy. Furthermore I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord. None of the strategic traits are worth not waaagh'ing every turn.
At Nova, Marc used the thinkin cap to try and get the infiltrating warlord trait off strategic.
greggles wrote: At Nova, Marc used the thinkin cap to try and get the infiltrating warlord trait off strategic.
That doesn't really seem to be much of an advantage for GT, but I will admit I don't really know how the rules interact there. Does the whole unit get infiltrate? Even if they do, I don't think they can charge on the first turn. I have taken the finkin cap plenty of times in a combined arms detachment, but I don't think I would ever do it for GT.
pickled_heretic wrote: ... I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord.
Maybe I'm missing something: I think the Warlord MUST be in the Primary Detachment. By '2nd' detachment, do mean it wasn't the 'primary'?
if you want the finkin kap, then that model MUST be the warlord as no one else can have the warlord trait. so you basically have to decide if you want to WAAAGH! every turn or if you want another warlord trait.
If you look at matts earlier reports on the green tide. He tried infiltrate and with a good opponent it nets you a grand total of a 6 in deployment bonus just like scout. The reason being the tide will still be 18in away.
Waagh every turn is basically just giving Orks better charge distances. It's an additional d6 run move. It not only helps speed up the tide Which tends to be its main issue but makes things like tankbustas better to charge with.
The tide is a distraction it's not great at grabbing maelstrom objectoves you need supporting fire and other mobile units for that. But it's great at going head to head with any other unit in game or multi charging and locking several msu into a combat they wont win.
pickled_heretic wrote: ... I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord.
Maybe I'm missing something: I think the Warlord MUST be in the Primary Detachment. By '2nd' detachment, do mean it wasn't the 'primary'?
I am mixing terminology a bit and I apologize, but basically, either the Green Tide formation warboss or your primary detachment HQ can be the warlord. The GT formation warboss cannot take relics from the codex: Orks, so he can't take a finkin' kap. On the other hand, you only benefit from the Stampede SR if you take him as your warlord. The bottom line is you either get a finkin' kap or you get Stampede (WAAAGH!!! every turn after the first), you can't have both.
Also, I want to thank Fnexi for this thread and his efforts at LVO. I have been a lurker here but never cared enough to post until I found this thread.
pickled_heretic wrote: ... I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord.
Maybe I'm missing something: I think the Warlord MUST be in the Primary Detachment. By '2nd' detachment, do mean it wasn't the 'primary'?
I am mixing terminology a bit and I apologize, but basically, either the Green Tide formation warboss or your primary detachment HQ can be the warlord. The GT formation warboss cannot take relics from the codex: Orks, so he can't take a finkin' kap. On the other hand, you only benefit from the Stampede SR if you take him as your warlord. The bottom line is you either get a finkin' kap or you get Stampede (WAAAGH!!! every turn after the first), you can't have both.
Marc Parker here
That was a big decision for me of what to take , thinkin cap or lucky stikk.
I thought i had the advantage verse another green tide due to the heavy armor and number, but the odds of fighting another tide were astranomical . But if you can get infiltrate verse TAU on , hammer and andvil, which i never seem to play them in any other deployment then you can almost auto win if you go first. It was a calculated risk that if the game ended on 5 would have made me a genius.
Awesome game , was one of the only things, besides pure insanity that was going to stop me in my lead up to the tournament.
I can absolutely see where you are coming from in regard to the tau thing, and I don't want to make it sound like I think you are an idiot for what you chose. Infiltrate is strong against generally any opponent who likes to deploy on the heels of the table.
However, if a snarky opponent deploys properly (e.g. putting a crisis squad or riptide on his deployment line, while holding everything else back) he can deny you any lasting advantage to infiltrate while having to do very little to change what he is doing. I would rather take the D6 run before charge every turn. Sure, there are games where you only need to waaagh! on one turn to win, but for every game like that, there are going to be a few games where you failed your first charge and need to try again next turn.
Geemoney wrote:I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
He was somewhere in the tide, punching stuff.
pretre wrote:Great reports! I think it's amazing to imagine you tabled a GT; not a lot of folks could do that.
I'm still amazed I was lucky enough to pull it off. Musta been the luck from the Lucky Stikk!
Geemoney wrote: I think that this shows that having speed and options are key. Trying to win the game on the back of just one big power unit just isn't going to work. Good work!!
BTW, where was his biker boss in all this?
No, I think this shows that in a GT vs GT, a lucky stikk is key.
No the Lucky Stikk tide lost the fight, but it was okay because the rest of his army was able to clean up. In addition while the two tides were fighting the fast/shooty parts of the army took care of everything else.
The lucky stikk tide lost the fight after killing all but ~15 models, who were cleaned up by gretchins.
with both tides tied (hurr hurr) at 5ws, you can bet the models remaining in the larger green tide would not have been diminished sufficiently for a few cowardly grots to finish it off.
I am NOT saying that the lucky stikk wasn't important. I am saying that it did NOT win the game. What won the game was having stronger shooting and more options on the field; that and good playing.
Losing 15 models to a few cowardly grots was a fluke, and I would not count on it happening twice.
Keep in mind it wasn't just Grots shooting. I also had Mek Gunz (with blasts), tankbustas, and some Big Shootas on the tanks.
Mr.T wrote:Srsly that calling Waagh every turn is necessary?
I found that i need to call Waagh only one time in game.
I disagree. I've found a WAAGHH every turn to be absolutely amazing. It's true that there is usually one turn in particular where the WAAGHH is key, but sometimes you trip and roll a 1 and your WAAAAGH is wasted. That's why I like the consistency.
Plus, the WAAAGH also helps things like the Tankbustas get in for a scrap!
gungo wrote:If you look at matts earlier reports on the green tide. He tried infiltrate and with a good opponent it nets you a grand total of a 6 in deployment bonus just like scout. The reason being the tide will still be 18in away.
Waagh every turn is basically just giving Orks better charge distances. It's an additional d6 run move. It not only helps speed up the tide Which tends to be its main issue but makes things like tankbustas better to charge with.
The tide is a distraction it's not great at grabbing maelstrom objectoves you need supporting fire and other mobile units for that. But it's great at going head to head with any other unit in game or multi charging and locking several msu into a combat they wont win.
The 6" infiltrate has been my problem with the Finkin Kap. If I could, I would take it - but I'm not going to trade the CHANCE that I might be able to infiltrate for a GUARANTEED WAAGH every turn.
pickled_heretic wrote: ... I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord.
Maybe I'm missing something: I think the Warlord MUST be in the Primary Detachment. By '2nd' detachment, do mean it wasn't the 'primary'?
I am mixing terminology a bit and I apologize, but basically, either the Green Tide formation warboss or your primary detachment HQ can be the warlord. The GT formation warboss cannot take relics from the codex: Orks, so he can't take a finkin' kap. On the other hand, you only benefit from the Stampede SR if you take him as your warlord. The bottom line is you either get a finkin' kap or you get Stampede (WAAAGH!!! every turn after the first), you can't have both.
Also, I want to thank Fnexi for this thread and his efforts at LVO. I have been a lurker here but never cared enough to post until I found this thread.
Yeah, it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. The Finkin Cap is good, and so is the endless WAAUGH! Both are good options, it's just my personal preference that I happen to like the WAAAGH better.
pickled_heretic wrote: ... I don't really see the advantage of letting the 2nd detachment warboss with a finkin kap be the warlord.
Maybe I'm missing something: I think the Warlord MUST be in the Primary Detachment. By '2nd' detachment, do mean it wasn't the 'primary'?
I am mixing terminology a bit and I apologize, but basically, either the Green Tide formation warboss or your primary detachment HQ can be the warlord. The GT formation warboss cannot take relics from the codex: Orks, so he can't take a finkin' kap. On the other hand, you only benefit from the Stampede SR if you take him as your warlord. The bottom line is you either get a finkin' kap or you get Stampede (WAAAGH!!! every turn after the first), you can't have both.
Marc Parker here
That was a big decision for me of what to take , thinkin cap or lucky stikk.
I thought i had the advantage verse another green tide due to the heavy armor and number, but the odds of fighting another tide were astranomical . But if you can get infiltrate verse TAU on , hammer and andvil, which i never seem to play them in any other deployment then you can almost auto win if you go first. It was a calculated risk that if the game ended on 5 would have made me a genius.
Awesome game , was one of the only things, besides pure insanity that was going to stop me in my lead up to the tournament.
Hey Marc! Thanks for the game man, hope you enjoyed the battle report and I gave the utter chaos that was our match due justice!
On a side note, I'm curious - what was the other match you ended up losing against? I noticed you went 4-2. Was it another tide?
Marc lost his other game versus SoB with AM allies. Saint Celestine hit a weak side of his mob and kept it tied up for three turns... Hit and Running out so he could keep shooting it.
I had to play Steve Sisk the second round - biker versus biker... Went right down to the last combat... I whiffed against his Knight (concussed by grav) - only had 2-3 HP left - Chapter Master, a command squad veteran with a thunderhammer and three Meltabomb attacks hitting on 3+. It was a great game but I would have preferred to play something besides another biker army the second round.
It's not that hard to play a greentide in under two hours. Don't forget it's not an msu list. So while you have more bodies and more dice. It's less rolls and less charges and less measuring and less movements. The only real time you run into issues is if your opponent is deliberately slowing down the game so it protracts the combat the greentide is generally in because they don't want the tide finishing off thier tarpit and moving past to another unit.
So this list consists of basically one tide without shooting or psychic phase vs another tide which doesnt shoot and basically just moves, run d6, and charges 2d6 with 2 Mek gun and 2 tank busts shooting units. Other then moving your boys which can be quick if they are all in unit coherency it's not a lot of seperate dice rolls.
gungo wrote: It's not that hard to play a greentide in under two hours. Don't forget it's not an msu list. So while you have more bodies and more dice. It's less rolls and less charges and less measuring and less movements. The only real time you run into issues is if your opponent is deliberately slowing down the game so it protracts the combat the greentide is generally in because they don't want the tide finishing off thier tarpit and moving past to another unit.
Yeah; at first I was shocked they managed to play this game to completion under a time limit, but then you realize one of them literally has three units in his whole army. Not much decision-making to be done, just raw model movement.
It's still a testament to them both being very familiar with their armies and how to efficiently move them though. When those "4-6x units of 20-30x Boyz" armies were popular for a couple months in 5th (fuelled by the enormous amount of cheap AoBR Boyz) it was an absolute nightmare because you had people with no idea how to play the army plopping 100-150 Boyz down on the table and getting through a turn and a half at tournaments.
When everything is painted it's easy to know your work however. When I play my large ork horde lists as my Orks die I place them into my battle foam trays and it lets me keep track of how many died and how many are left. It also makes for an easier transport to your next table.
Hahaha oh my stars that 2nd round. . . so crazy. How in the hell did you guys even keep your boyz sorted out?!!?! One of the most entertaining Bat Reps I've seen in a long time
gungo wrote:It's not that hard to play a greentide in under two hours. Don't forget it's not an msu list. So while you have more bodies and more dice. It's less rolls and less charges and less measuring and less movements. The only real time you run into issues is if your opponent is deliberately slowing down the game so it protracts the combat the greentide is generally in because they don't want the tide finishing off thier tarpit and moving past to another unit.
So this list consists of basically one tide without shooting or psychic phase vs another tide which doesnt shoot and basically just moves, run d6, and charges 2d6 with 2 Mek gun and 2 tank busts shooting units. Other then moving your boys which can be quick if they are all in unit coherency it's not a lot of seperate dice rolls.
People always overestimate how long the Tide takes to play. I always tell my opponents that deployment is EASILY my longest turn of the game. After that, my turns are quick - it's just that you pick up time-saving tricks as time goes on (ex. moving and running at same time, doing pile-ins and charging at same time, etc).
The only time I don't finish a game is when my opponent's turns are taking a long time.
Tiny_Titan wrote:
grendel083 wrote: The big question is... how did you avoid taking the wrong Orks home?
i was wondering this in a different way haha.
while looking at the pictures i couldnt tell whose orkss were whose! but im guessing they kept a constant tally of how many orks they had left
It may be difficult to tell from the pictures, but our tides were actually painted quite differently. Mine is a Goff-Themed army, all of my Boyz have checkers on them in one form or another.
Marc's had pansy colors like yellow on em! Dat's no proppa at all fer a real Orkie Army!
(With that said, I did accidentally steal one of Marc's orks though - but he got it back by the end of the tourney!)
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:Playing orks you learn right away to put things away as they die. You don't want a 30 + minute clean up after a game.
Games where my tide mostly live are actually a nightmare to clean up. Games where I lose, it's super easy - everything's already put away!
greggles wrote: Was great to see both tides. I do have a short video of Marc's if anyone is interested! (Don't know what round this was, but Marc can answer!)
That was round 4, my version of the elephant and the whale.
Got a minor win by stretching out to be on every objective and waiting for the shooting to stop
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey Marc! Thanks for the game man, hope you enjoyed the battle report and I gave the utter chaos that was our match due justice!
On a side note, I'm curious - what was the other match you ended up losing against? I noticed you went 4-2. Was it another tide?
round 6 , so commical it was insane, i spent three full rounds in HTH with saint Celestian, dead back and up to about 40 2+ saves later before i could kill her, mix in a wyvern battery to snipe power claws and all i could do was just watch and think about drinking mass quantities.
round 6 , so commical it was insane, i spent three full rounds in HTH with saint Celestian, dead back and up to about 40 2+ saves later before i could kill her, mix in a wyvern battery to snipe power claws and all i could do was just watch and think about drinking mass quantities.
Yeah, Celestine went off the charts silly against you that game. You also failed that key charge on the Rhino on the objective (all those hits for only three glances and then a silly 6++ worked). You gave me a new appreciation for heavy armor though. I think I would have killed most of your tide by the end of four the way Celestine was performing if you didn't have the 4+ armor to help tank a lot of the wounds. Still a good game though.
Round 3 baby! Man, so far I've been lucky (I blame the lucky stikk) and done quite well. 20-0, max points...but the games are getting harder with each round.
Round 3 is up - I head to my table to find quite the dapper gentleman waiting for me....
Vince Weibert's Tyranids!
Look at that guy! Man, in a tie and everything - he makes me look like a slob. I give him some friendly gak about how he should be wearing the whole 3-piece suit, (cummerbund included), and take a look at the list.
His List:
4x Hive Tyrants with Egrubs, TL devourers.
3x Man ripper Swarm w/ Deep Strike
1x Mucolid
1x Mucolid
Barbed Hierodule
Malanthrope
14x Termagaunts
18 Gargoyles
Mission:
Primary: Relic
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Pre-Game Thoughts: Ah, here we go - finally a list that doesn't throw me for a loop!
I'm a big proponent of Xenos armies - especially scary ass ones. I may love Orks first and foremost, but I also play a LOT of Crons and Nids. I have won GT's with all three armies, and I constantly swap between the three (and, sometimes when I'm feeling frisky, I'll throw down as chaos, or daemons, or hell, even imperials!) As such, I'm VERY familiar with the bugs.
This list is something more akin to what I was expecting at LVO. The nids are EVERYWHERE here - In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if they were one of the most popular armies, tied possibly with Knights and Eldar.
It's relic, which gives me an advantage because Marc doesn't have much in the way of ground prescience. True that he has a Barbed Heirodule, but the str 10 ap 3 shots make my Green Tide laugh, and in a fight, I have Klaws, more Klaws, Melta Bombs, and even more Klaws.
In addition, I also have a couple of Traktor Kannons, which should threaten his Hive Tyrants if he gets too aggressive.
On the other hand, Vince has more mobility with me, has better shooting denial then me (I can't really prevent him from giving shrouded with his malanthrope to his units) and can easily take out my VSG with his Heirodules shot's. So, while I'm feeling good about this game, I'd hardly call it something that I'm feeling like I got in the bag. I know this is gonna be a rough fight.
I believe I won the roll to go first and chose to go second, as my alpha strike isn't going to do jack to Vince with his 2+ cover saves and the LOS blocking. I also don't mind if he gets the jump on the relic easily; in fact, I'm kind of hoping he does - I would LOVE a first turn assault against anything in his army.
Vince is smarter then that though, and plays it conservatively - deploying in the ruins next to his Malanthrope. Shocking, right?
You can see all four of his Hive Tyrants all back there, along with his Heirodule. The gaunts are up front, ready to move up for a shot at the relic given the chance. The gargoyles are hiding behind the LOS blocking ruin.
My deployment:
I REALLY need to learn how to take proper pictures. Good lord.
Well, although it may be hard to tell by looking at a picture that looks like it is being sucked into a vortex, I deploy as follows:
Tankbustas in vehicles behind the LOS blocking ruin.
Mek Gunz up in two sets of ruins, one in the middle and one on the left.
Tide kind of clustered up, at the 24" line (Vince has no blasts), but ready to go yolo towards the relic.
Grots kind of sitting in the back, hiding.
After deployment, the table looks like this:
I do not attempt to seize, and we begin.
Early Game:
Vince plays a very different form of Nids then I do. While I play my bugs SUPER AGGRESSIVELY, he plays it conservatively by inching up his Heirodule a couple inches, along with the gaunts - and then keeps his Tyrants back. In fact, so far back they can't even shoot anything. The Traktor Kannons pay off! As such, they kinda dink around, flying at 12" around the Malanthrope, and just hide. The gaunts move up a few inches towards the relic.
His shooting isn't very exciting - the only thing in range is his Heirodule, which he plinks away at my Mek Gunz with. However, I have a 3+ cover because I rolled the MTC ruins and stealth ruins, so it doesn't do much. However, it DOES take out all three of my VSG shields.
My turn is similarly undramatic. I keep the Tankbustas out of LOS (I don't think my shooting will do much, and I want First Blood, so at the moment I'm keeping em close). My tide moves up and runs towards the relic, and with his 2+ cover against my shooting, I don't do a single thing to his army turn 1.
Turn 2 proves more exciting. Vince moves his Tyrants 12" fowards toward the edge of the ruins (but still out of range to shoot me), getting ready to go to town as I march forward. Again, his shooting does very little. He also inches his gaunts a little bit foward towards the relic, meaning he's about 15" or so away from my Green Tide. His Rippers also deepstrike in the ruins just left of the relic (near Vince's hand).
On my turn, I see my chance, and I go for it. WAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I move up my tide, they get a decent run, and manage to charge both the Rippers and the Gaunts near the relic. That's all I need, baby!
I obliterate both squads in combat - the rippers are dead (giving me first blood) and his Gaunts are left with one guy. Because Vince strung them out so much, he's about 12" away from the combat - and since we can't make it into base contact with another 3" pile in, we both consolidate out. I'm now DIRECTLY up in Vince's grill.
Meanwhile, my Tankbustas are still makin' like Kommandos, sneakily hiding and just waiting for a chance to run in with Meltabombs.....
Mid Game: I am all over the relic like blue paint on a deffskul. There is no way Vince can (currently) take it from me, but he's got some other tricks up his sleeve.....
Vince keeps the Tyrants flying and pops his gargoyles out to the right of my tide. He hides his lone, solo gaunt (which is also his only source of objective secured) out of LOS in the back of the table.
He then proceeds to shoot my tide with literally everything he has - Gargoyles, Heirodule, and Hive Tyrants. He does a fair amount of damage, but not nearly enough to remove me from the objective.
Vince, however, is no dumb git. His plan wasn't to wipe the tide, but rather to tie it up. He proceeds to charge it with his 18 gargoyles on the weak side of my tide, where I am less concentrated, in the hopes of tying me up. You can kind of see them on the side of this picture, near the right.
Spoiler:
He does charge me, and the plan pays off! I kill several Gargoyles, but with the fearless, it isn't enough to wipe him, and I am locked into combat.
In fact, the plan works PERFECTLY - and I kill the rest of the Gargoyles by the end of my turn. This means Vince can shoot me again! Uh oh.
Vince shoots me - but it doesn't do too much once more. I think he spent some shooting on the grots at the back, as I recall.
Again, it comes to Vince's turn and he need another something to tie me up... care to guess what he throws at the grinder?
Spoiler:
If you guessed the Heirodule, you're right. He moves on in and punches me, and with the Klaws, I do a couple wounds, but not many. Again, Vince ties me up a turn! DAMN!
Meanwhile, his Hive Tyrants start moving into my backfield. One comes to the ground in an effort to stop me, should the Heirodule fail....
However, I've got my ace in the hole, and now is time to play it...
Spoiler:
The TankBustas!
They move in and go STRAIGHT for the Heirodule, both squads included! Naturally, I fail my fear check (god, I hate that rule, it's like it was meant to screw over Orks only ), but with enough wounds from the Meltabombs, the Heirodule eventually goes poof! That's another 2 Maelstrom points for me, too!
End-Game:
Vince is in a bad way by this point. He's down to basically four hive tyrants, and while they can put out some shooting, withe the VSG and number of bodies, he just can't kill off the rest of the tide. The flyrants have been moving around, and one is on the ground (and able to charge), while the other 3 are not (including his warlord).
Vince makes the only decision he can. He's hoping to tie me up with his ground Tyrant and move his single, objective secured gaunt next to the relic. If he can do that, he can win on primary - but I've got just too many points on him for him to get Secondary.
So, Vince charges in with his single lone hive tyrant....
Spoiler:
And it works! He charges in in a way such that I don't have enough Klaws to kill him, and the tide is still tied up! In addition, his gaunt is now sitting just a few inches away from the relic!
Spoiler:
Not all is good for Vince, though, as on the bottom of my turn, I shoot his warlord with my Traktor Kannons and a squad of Tankbustas. It takes a wound, goes down and gets charged by Tankbustas, which promptly turn into Tyrant BBQ(although it also basically mutually destroys the tankbustas too).
Spoiler:
Furthermore, my gretchin have been moving forward toward the relic, and along with the guns from the Gunwagons, take a couple pot shots at the lone gaunt. It goes poof. The Tide is still locked in combat with the Tyrant, but it is so big and so spread out that it is still holding the relic.
Spoiler:
With that, we call it. Vince only has two mobile hive tyrants left, and I just have too many units around the relic for him to contest it, including my objective secured grots. Even if he were to come to ground to try and stop me, I'm at the bottom of the turn, and I can just charge him with a gakload of Klaws, and table him. With that, Vince decides to hide in the back corner for Linebreaker, but I get everything else.
As a result:
Orks get Primary, Secondary, First Blood, Linebreaker, and Warlord.
Nids get Linebreaker.
Orks take it, 10-1.
After-Game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Vince played it smart by trying to tie up my tide, but I also think he let me get too much momentum on him too. I, personally, would have had the Hive tyrants move up immediately, because the 48 str 6 shots they can put out is absolutely key in trying to to whittle down the tide. By playing conservatively, he may have kept his tyrants alive longer, but they (to me, at least) are entirely disposable and if they die...so be it.
However, with that said, it was a rough match for Vince. It's tough to beat Green Tide at Relic since it can just SWARM the relic in a way that Tyranids only wish they could. In addition, me going second means he can't come to ground to contest it, or he'll just lose a hive tyrant for his trouble. He played it smart by trying to tie me up, but at the end of the day, he can only bleed so many units before he runs dry - which is just a part of how the Green Tide functions!
With that, I'm 3-0 and at max points! I'm now one of two people who have earned literally every point possible here at the tournament, and I couldn't be happier - I came to prove Orks proud, and by Gork I mean to do that.
For now, however, the day is over, and I can get some rest for tomorrow, which would prove to be a very long and challenging day. Especially when I learned what my next opponent was running.....
[spoiler]...he may have kept his tyrants alive longer, but they (to me, at least) are entirely disposable
That's cause you play orks
Anywayz, i think he'd do much better if he rushed for tankbustas with tyrants. 4 Flyrants put significant ammount of dakka to wipe out this threat and to concentrate on the tide later on. Yep, he'd probably loose 1 tyrant to your shooting but it's better than sitting back with 1k pt of units doing nothing. That's the cons of playing too conservatively. The pros is that everything's alive Up to the general to decide which is more appropriate in each situation. I think the results show pretty well how it ended up in this particular matchup.
That wasan interesting match nevertheless and it could turn in tyranid's favor any minute! Oh, it'd be hilarious if this one gaunt 1 ran away with a relic, eh Reminds me of a game where i had a single grot blocking the way to an imperial knight! The guy played his knights too conservatively either and when the time came to push, THE GROT happened to be in the way and cost him victory.
[spoiler]...he may have kept his tyrants alive longer, but they (to me, at least) are entirely disposable
That's cause you play orks
Anywayz, i think he'd do much better if he rushed for tankbustas with tyrants. 4 Flyrants put significant ammount of dakka to wipe out this threat and to concentrate on the tide later on. Yep, he'd probably loose 1 tyrant to your shooting but it's better than sitting back with 1k pt of units doing nothing. That's the cons of playing too conservatively. The pros is that everything's alive Up to the general to decide which is more appropriate in each situation. I think the results show pretty well how it ended up in this particular matchup.
That wasan interesting match nevertheless and it could turn in tyranid's favor any minute! Oh, it'd be hilarious if this one gaunt 1 ran away with a relic, eh Reminds me of a game where i had a single grot blocking the way to an imperial knight! The guy played his knights too conservatively either and when the time came to push, THE GROT happened to be in the way and cost him victory.
Keep 'em coming! This (and the predecessor thread of the Table Flip Challenge) has been my favorite thread on Dakka! It's nice to see the Orks doing some krumpin!
shyzo wrote: Fxeni, why you didn't bring Lootas? A solid choice, IMO.
Long time follower of your bat reps Fxeni, another person who finally made an account to comment in this thread
Where does he find points in this army to fit in a squad of lootas? Bottom line, they're unreliable and I can't see them being as affective as any part of his current list.
shyzo wrote:One question - what will happen if your opponent brings two Thunderfire Cannons?
Typically, I hide my warboss (the warlord, that is) and the painboy underneath some ruins. That way the thunderfire can't single them out.
Then I just spread the rest of the tide out.
shyzo wrote:Fxeni, why you didn't bring Lootas? A solid choice, IMO.
Honestly, I haven't really given Lootas much of a fair shake in 7ed. I loved em in 5ed, where a single 5+ meant a wreck, but since then I haven't really tried them out - especially since they became heavy support, which is an often crammed slot.
Knicknock wrote:
shyzo wrote: Fxeni, why you didn't bring Lootas? A solid choice, IMO.
Long time follower of your bat reps Fxeni, another person who finally made an account to comment in this thread
Where does he find points in this army to fit in a squad of lootas? Bottom line, they're unreliable and I can't see them being as affective as any part of his current list.
I'd take em, but I really feel like Tankbustas do the job Lootas did, but only better.
And fret not everyone else, I will continue the batreps - just been super busy these last few days!
Typically, I hide my warboss (the warlord, that is) and the painboy underneath some ruins. That way the thunderfire can't single them out.
Then I just spread the rest of the tide out.
Can you clarify what is happening here? Is this specific to barrage weapons? My FLGS is a little confused on rules interpretations with blast weapons interacting with multiple level buildings in 7th ed.
According to the rulebook the accepted rule is that anything under the blast template in 7th is hit. It no longer has the faq ruling of only hitting the top most level. Some minor debate still ensues about you can't "see" the models under the template of they are under multiple levels. But the accepted ruling is you hit everything underneath the template.
However ITC the main tournament format for most of the major tournaments has incorporated the old faq regarding ruins and multiple levels and state that you only hit the top most level located under the blast template and anything covered by another level is not hit.
Typically, I hide my warboss (the warlord, that is) and the painboy underneath some ruins. That way the thunderfire can't single them out.
Then I just spread the rest of the tide out.
Can you clarify what is happening here? Is this specific to barrage weapons? My FLGS is a little confused on rules interpretations with blast weapons interacting with multiple level buildings in 7th ed.
I think the point of having him in ruins is to get cover saves, and thunder fire ( I'm only assuming but please correct if I'm wrong) is barrage, so models wounded from the centre of the blast marker which could snipe the boss and pain boy
gungo wrote: According to the rulebook the accepted rule is that anything under the blast template in 7th is hit. It no longer has the faq ruling of only hitting the top most level. Some minor debate still ensues about you can't "see" the models under the template of they are under multiple levels. But the accepted ruling is you hit everything underneath the template.
However ITC the main tournament format for most of the major tournaments has incorporated the old faq regarding ruins and multiple levels and state that you only hit the top most level located under the blast template and anything covered by another level is not hit.
Typically, I hide my warboss (the warlord, that is) and the painboy underneath some ruins. That way the thunderfire can't single them out.
Then I just spread the rest of the tide out.
Can you clarify what is happening here? Is this specific to barrage weapons? My FLGS is a little confused on rules interpretations with blast weapons interacting with multiple level buildings in 7th ed.
At LVO they were using 6ed ruin rules in regards to blasts
I think that VSG will reach it's maximum effect combined with mech orks. Cause you got to shoot the shields first and by the time you've downed them, there's not much AT left to deal with actual vehicles.
Sorry for the delay, folks! I've been SUPER busy the last few days, and in addition, Adepticon is only in a week, so I've had some other priorities! However, the Battle Reports are still coming - I promise!
Las Vegas Open 2015: Game 4
It's a fresh day, and I am pumped! I'm currently tied with one other person for max points (30/30). Which no doubt means that my opponent's list is likely similarly brutal to the Green Tide. But I guess we'll find out, won't we?
I head to my table, and waiting there is...
Chris Morris' Oldcrons!!
Chris' name was familiar to me, but I couldn't place it until I found out that he made Top 8 at LVO last year. Holy cats! Looks like I'm in for a tough fight. Wouldn't have it any other way!
Chris' list:
Overlord w/ MSS, Phase Shifter, Rez Orb, Semp Weave, Phaeron, Warscythe, and Solar Thermaite
2x 5x man Warriors
5x Wraiths, 1 Whip Coil
5x Wraiths, 1 Whip Coil
1x Tomb Blade w/ Tesla Carbine
Anni Barge
Anni Barge
3x Sentry Pylons with Focussed Death Ray
Oybron
Necron Warriors
Anni Barge
VSG w/ 3x shields
Primary: Scouring
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Hm.....that's it?
I must admit, that upon first viewing Chris' list I was a bit perplexed. I've played against many many many armies, including Oldcrons (hell, I RUN Oldcrons) but the list seemed weak to me. Eh, I had heard about the Sentry Pylons, sure, and I knew about the Sentry Pylon deathstar, but I had never played against it. But...how bad could it be? He has to deepstrike around, risking a mishap, it only has 24" range, and it's no worse then a Death Scythe. Didn't seem that scary to me, at least.
Spoiler:
HOLY feth WAS I WRONG
Just as a quick note to you guys: things started getting intense in this round and the following ones throughout the day, so I kinda spaced on taking pictures. There are still some, but I was so into my games that I didn't take nearly as many as I should have - sorry about that! I'll do better next time, I promise.
Anyways, we roll off and such, Chris sets up his army basically on the line, with his Sentry Pylons stretched out and his Overlord and Obryon in the front of them. I do similarly, with my boys on the line, but just a bittttt farther then 24" from his Artillery Star - it doesn't scare me that much, but I'd like to mitigate the damage it can do if possible. I mean, it's still Str 10 Ap 1 after all.
Chris takes the first turn, and we begin.
Early Game:
Let's play a fun little game, shall we? Everytime it turns out I was super, duper, crazily wrong about the Artillery Deathstar, I will do a "Fxeniwasdumb count". Let's keep track!
So, first of all, I'm well aware of the fact that with Phaeron that the Artillery can move up and shoot, so Chris moves it up just a few inches. He kind of hangs the rest of his guys out in the back behind the ruins, and plinks away with his Anni Barges and such. His wraiths also sit back. He plays it pretty conservative!
Annnnnnd theeeeeeeeeeen the shooting starts.
FXENIWASDUMB#1, 2, 3, and 4!
Spoiler:
1. Sooooo it turns out that the Sentry Pylons aren't range 24". They're range 24"+3d6. So my moving a bit back to mitigate damage from his shooting doesn't do gak! 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
3. It also turns out that Sentry Pylons don't do ONE HIT per model under the line, but TWO. So when Chris rolls a 10" (about average) line and draws it across 7 boys, that means that he does 7 x 2 x 3(per pylon) = Forty Two fething Hits on my Boys at Str 10 AP 1. HOLY GORK AND MORK 4. It also turns out that since the line isn't technically a template, the LVO ruled that EVERY hit goes against the VSG. Meaning that with a blast (which normally hits 6-7 guys, but only hits the VSG once), it's no big deal, but with Chris' Sentry Pylons, he only loses about 6 of his 42 hits against my boys in taking down my Void Shield Generator. WHAT? WHAAAAAAAAT?
So, at the end of all this, Chris does something like 35 wounds. Due to cover saves (I had stealth from Night Fight and SOME ruins saves) he kills something like 25 boys with ONE. UNITS. SHOOTING.
Sooooooo this game just went from interesting to horrifying - suddenly Chris' perfect score of 30 makes complete and total sense.
So it's the bottom of turn 1 and I've already lost 1/4th of my Tide because FXENIWASDUMB. Let's see if we can make it up!
I have one, complete, total objective in mind: I need to get that friggen' Sentry Star in combat ASAP so it can't shoot me. THAT, or I need to BE in combat where I can't get shot. I can't keep this up!
So I move the boys up and with a decent run basically get as many guys into ruins as I can. This is one of those times that I am 100% A-OK with slowing myself down a bit so I can get cover saves. Furthermore, my warlord was lucky enough to roll MTC Ruins and Stealth Ruins, which helps a LOT in this particular scenario.
Meanwhile, despite Chris' BRUTAL turn of shooting, I decide to keep everything else back (including the Tankbustas) I'm keenly waiting for my shot at first blood, which I feel like will be key in this situation. I shoot him with my KMKs, putting a couple wounds onto his Warlord, and my tankbustas force a jink on his Barges, but beyond that, I don't do any damage.
So we go to turn 2, and I just clench at the thought of being shot again by Chris' Pylons
Chris, however, decides to go a different route this time. He moves both of his Wraith squads riiiiiiight up to my Tide and prepares to charge me. He then shoots behind my tide, hitting my Gun Wagon Squad and an Artillery Squad. He blows up one wagon (as I kept the other out of LOS ) and Chris murders the other artillery down to just grots, which promptly start falling back.
He then charges me with BOTH squads of Wraiths.
Spoiler:
And I am 100% okay with this! 7ed Wraiths, with their T5, can be really rough for me, but T4 wraiths, with all of my klaws, are easy peasy. Plus, as a bonus, I can't get shot here! Perfect!
So after the first round of combat is done, Chris kills some boys, but he takes more then he gives, and he's down to about 3-4 wraiths in each squad.
And now...the opportunity for First Blood Arises!
My remaning squad of tankbustas move up, get outta their rides, and with the WAAAGHH roll, get into two of his Anni barges, making them go POOF, and earning me first Blood! Chris debates this at first, claiming he got first blood on my Gun Wagon, until I remind him that it's a squadron, and he has to kill both for First Blood.
We go back to punching in the Wraiths vs. the Tide...
Spoiler:
And again, it goes well for me. My klaws put another serious dent in the squad of Wraiths, leaving him with just 1-2 left. Perfect! That means I'll get out of combat on his turn, giving me the chance to charge his stupid Pylons!
Mid-Game: So now it's Chris' turn again, and I'm feeling much safer now that I'm in combat.
Then Chris tells me he shoots my tide again, doing another 42 hits.
........
Wait, what?
FXENIWASDUMB#5
Spoiler:
So it turns out that because the Pylons don't technically "target" anything in when they shoot (as they just draw a line), they can shoot anything, anytime, and anywhere - including into Close Combat.
I was utterly flabbergasted by this but the judges confirmed that that is how it was being ruled, so I merely had to take it.
Spoiler:
Fortunately for me, I get my cover saves. Or do I? This time it is Chris' turn to contest, saying that you cannot get cover saves in close combat, but the judges rule that you only cannot take cover saves against a close combat attack, allowing me to take my cover saves against his Pylons. This is HUGE, as it allows me several 3+ cover saves to help mitigate the damage. However, despite that, I still end up losing another 30 or so boyz! HOLY GORK.
So, after that, I NEED NEEED NEEEEEEEEED to be out of Combat here. Apparently it isn't safe with the Wraiths (again, see Fxeniwasdumb#5 ) and I need to charge his Friggen' Pylon-Star ASAP!
So we go to combat with the Wraiths ....
Spoiler:
YES! I wipe them out, allowing me to move forward!
So on my turn, I move, WAAAGHH run, and get up into Chris' grill, where his Pylon star is - right on the edge of the red ruins in this picture:
Now because of Fxeniwasdumb reasons 1-5, I have taken to asking Chris questions about the Sentry Star at this point. I learn that the squad is fearless and CANNOT be locked into combat - so I not only need to charge the Pylon star, I also need to KILL it in ONE round of combat, or it'll blast me away once again.
So, I do so....and this is it. The pivitol combat where I will either live, or I will die.
I charge in, and I first debate the issue of whether or not to challenge.
Without the challenge, Chris can tank all of my boy attacks on his Warlord who has a 2+ rerollable armor save (allthough the LVO ruled that you can only make it onto a 4+ on the second roll). This means he can absorb a LOT of damage.
If I do challenge, however, Chris can accept either with his Warlord (who cannot tank the wounds at that point) or Obryon (who has no invul, but is also the only source of Deepstriking in the list).
So I decide I want to challenge - but before I even can, Chris declares a challenge against me with his Warlord. I accept with a nob, who (naturally) gets obliterated - but because Chris cannot tank wounds onto his warlord with the 2+ rerollable, the wounds go onto Obyron first and then the Artillery. So what happens....?
Spoiler:
I roll a fair number of wounds, and Chris proceeds to roll his saves....poorly. His first three rolls are triple and Obryon goes down!!!!! His 3+ armor saves are a little better on his Pylons, but he ends up still losing 2 of them, while the last one is down to one wound.
However, I've killed so much stuff in the combat, my klaws are only in range of his warlord (which again, is in the challenge).
Spoiler:
FXENIWASDUMB#6
I totally forgot about the fact that the klaws within 2" of the Warlord are still "engaged" and can still strike, even though they'd hit the pylons before they hit the warlord. Because of this, I didn't get any Klaw strikes on the squad, and the Overlord lives with 1 wound left and the Pylon with 1 wound left.
Because I am aallllll around Varguard Obryn, he has nowhere to get up and promptly stays down. Furthermore, even though the Pylons can't be locked into combat, we are now in a very weird place.
I am fully surrounding his Warlord on all sides , preventing him from moving. Because of the combat, I am also within 1" of him too. Furthermore, because of the way wounds were allocated, his closest pylon is like 10" back - way too far to be in coherency with his warlord. So me and Chris are perplexed as to how this is handled ruleswise. So, once again, we call the judge to the table.
Spoiler:
And it turns out that Chris missed something VERY important in the ITC FAQ: Sentry Pylons can only not be locked in combat when there isn't an IC attached to them. This means that Chris is stuck in combat with my tide!!!!!!!!!
Late Game:
Spoiler:
This basically broke Chris. His wraiths are dead, he's down to a single Anni barge, a single bike, and 3 5x man warrior squads, and his reamining Sentry Deathstar is down to a single pylon with 1 wound and his overlord with one wound.
His shooting without the Pylons is uneffective, and the remaining models in the combat with my tide promptly die.
This leaves me with free reign to charge all over his backfield with the remainder of the tide, and crush his warrior units.
As a result:
Spoiler:
Orks take Primary.
Orks take Secondary.
Orks take First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker.
Orks table the oldcrons and take it 10-0.
After game thoughts:
Spoiler:
Well...that didn't go as expected.
First of all, the Pylon deathstar was WAY trickier then I thought it was. I learned about its many deadly, deadly tricks in this game, the hard way, but I was able to compensate by charging him with everything he had.
Although Chris rolled poorly on Varguard Obyron and his armor saves, resulting in the death of his pylons, it didn't matter at that point in the game: the klaws would have struck and killed Obyron, and because of the size of the tide, prevented him from getting back up. With the warlord still stuck in combat, Obyron was the only way of leaving combat (via deepstriking), and so Chris' chances basically evaporated with the charging of the Green Tide into his deathstar.
But man, what a brutal game - I can see why Chris went 30-0. He was a smart player who knew exactly how to use the tricks of his army correctly, and to deadly effect. It was fortunate that I had the speed of the tide to catch him, because without that, the game would have been lost.
So now, I am at 40 points - at max, and I'm the only player within the entire LVO who has that many points. I'm currently sitting at the top of the charts, but I am also exhausted. The complexity of the Pylons resulted in many rules debacles which required the judge's input at our table, and these sorts of things tend to be draining. Worse, I didn't have time between this round and the next to get lunch and unfortunately, the LVO didn't let me bring the food into the hall that my friends brought, so I am going into round 5 tired and hungry.
However, if I thought that this game was exhausting, it was nothing compared to my next game. However, that is a tale for next time!
Man, this pylons do sound I'm happy you managed to pull it off against all odds!
Anywayz, shows us once again that it's important to know how your opponent's army functions. I often ask my opponents that bring things i'm not familliar with: "So, are there any cunning tricks?" and if he goes like: "Oh, just some stuff here and there..." and smiles humbly, i start to investigate!
Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
gungo wrote:Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
Yeh that pylon trick was nasty, I mean removing 30ish boyz a turn? and its not like it was because it was AP5, that thing will decimate anything without an invun regardless.
Jpr wrote:Did you find the gunwagons invaluable? They seem to be doing some work in the games!
Yeh i would like to know your thoughts on gunwagons, recently i've been thinking they have some merit in replacement of trukks or BW's. Such a good middle ground.
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
Consider it the "Brotherhood of Deathray" house-rules.
The rules for the Sentry Pylons with regards to how they interact with the other mechanics in the game is essentially incomplete. You need to do a lot of house-ruling to streamline them into competitive play.
koooaei wrote:Man, this pylons do sound I'm happy you managed to pull it off against all odds!
Anywayz, shows us once again that it's important to know how your opponent's army functions. I often ask my opponents that bring things i'm not familliar with: "So, are there any cunning tricks?" and if he goes like: "Oh, just some stuff here and there..." and smiles humbly, i start to investigate!
Yeah, knowing how your opponent's army functions is 100% key to competitive play, IMHO.
Solar Shock wrote:
gungo wrote:Nice win, seems like you had some good practice experience with your list. Good thing oldcrons are no longer legal.
I've never had experience with pylons either do they cause two hits or two wounds? Is that wound pooled or or model? That just sounds brutal.
It's crazy how Orks were the only lost at max points going into the 5th round.
Yeh that pylon trick was nasty, I mean removing 30ish boyz a turn? and its not like it was because it was AP5, that thing will decimate anything without an invun regardless.
Jpr wrote:Did you find the gunwagons invaluable? They seem to be doing some work in the games!
Yeh i would like to know your thoughts on gunwagons, recently i've been thinking they have some merit in replacement of trukks or BW's. Such a good middle ground.
I LOVE Gunwagons. They just keep getting better and better to me.
A transport with one less AV on the front then a Battlewagon that can take boarding planks for 5 pts and come in squadrons, all at roughly half the price of a Battlewagon? Sign me up.
I highly recommend them for smaller squads of stuff - they are tough to kill, and make fantastic transports. However, contrary to their name, they don't make good gun platforms.
Fxeni wrote: 2. It ALSO turns out that Chris only needs to draw LOS and range from ONE of the Pylons - so the fact that the other two are back further doesn't mean a damn thing to him. He can still hit me easily!
I can't find this in the artillery or sentry pylon rules.
Am I missing something?
Consider it the "Brotherhood of Deathray" house-rules.
The rules for the Sentry Pylons with regards to how they interact with the other mechanics in the game is essentially incomplete. You need to do a lot of house-ruling to streamline them into competitive play.
Man, I have never been so thrown for a loop as with the rules from the Sentry Pylon deathstar. That thing was just bizarre to play against, and the rules debates that came out of them were complicated as hell.
I want to test out big trakks and gun wagons. I'm torn since the trakks carry 12 and the wagon carries 10.
Ha ha. I know the feeling of not knowing what my opponents stuff does some times. I only play orks and only have the ork books , so some times I have to do mid game tactic changes once I realize the OH S*&T of an enemy unit.
Fething fantastic! What a great game it goes to show that the most important thing in winning games isn't knowing your army the best but knowing everyone else's armies
Mr. Fxeni,
I plan on running your list against my friend who always brings Deathwing Knights and I have troubles dealing with them. What would you do if you faced them? Simply drown them in bodies or something else?
Fxeni wrote: Just got back from Adepticon, so you can expect replies to your posts and the rest of the battle reports shortly!
Ahaha yeh the GunWagons don't make great Gun platforms themselves, but im thinking; (primarily because I want to make gitz viable in a transport)
3 squadron
Lootas
Flash Gitz
shoota boyz
Shoota boyz go in front as the squadron requires the front wagon go down first, so they are your least juicy unit, they also act as a great unit that can disembark if anyone DS's near, so can become a meatshield that is still nasty in CC, the wagons can move at different speeds too, so the loota wagon can remain still turn 1 to allow full BS while the shoota wagon flatouts, and the gitz move 6".
Secondly, due to squadron rules, if one vehicle is assaulted, all three can overwatch as you declare the charge against the squadron and then move into B2B, So you'd have your shoota boyz, lootas and gitz all firing, which could cause some serious casualties, not to mention even if they wrecked a vehicle the other two units are still embarked and the unit who charged are most definitely not in combat... just how shooty ork units like it
looking forward to the rest of your batreps and your thoughts on the games in general
shyzo wrote:Mr. Fxeni,
I plan on running your list against my friend who always brings Deathwing Knights and I have troubles dealing with them. What would you do if you faced them? Simply drown them in bodies or something else?
Drown them in Boyz! They're only T5 with a 2+, so enough Ork boyz punching em will krump em good!
That, or for hilarity, you could take a Burna squadron in a battlewagon and put it next to a promethium pipe and do like 90 hits. They'll vape reaaaallly quick to that!
Where are the information for Gun Wagons? They aren't looted wagons, correct? There are in Apoc8 book from what I can tell. Trying to figure out the rough stats on the interwebz but having trouble!! Thanks for any help.
It's game 5, and I'm already exhausted. The numerous rules arguments that I had with my last opponent have drained me heavily. Worse, I didn't have time for food, so I'm running on empty in terms of energy.
Unfortunately/Fortunately for me, I'm at max points right now - and the only person at the tournament with that much. While that means I'll likely be facing the most difficult lists LVO has to offer, it also means I have some leeway when it comes to missing points if I want to make top 8.
I see the matchups. Its another name that's familiar to me, but not someone I've played before....
Alan Bajramovic's Daemons + Tyranids!
(Okay, I totally forgot to take a picture of Alan - fortunately, google had one. That's my bad, sorry!)
Alan, also known as PJ pants, is known pretty widely as a good 40k player. I'd never had the opportunity to play him myself, but I had heard of his good placings before!
Again, sidenote: I was intensely into this game, so I didn't take many pictures...sorry!
Alan's list (from memory, may be slightly off)
Fatey
Lvl 2 LoC Lvl 2 DP 11x Horrors
10x Horrors
3x Flyrants
3x Mucolids
Primary: Modified Big Guns Never Tire
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Vanguard Strike
Alan's list doesn't really surprise me. It's a psyker list, designed to overwhelm the opponent with the ability to fly everywhere, put out a heavy amount of shooting with the flyrants, and summoning EVERYWHERE. However, while I've got no psychic defense against Alan whatsoever, I'm not worried - his list doesn't have much room to get into my backfield, I can move just about everywhere, and summoning doesn't scare my 100+ boys. Plus, I have a void shield, which helps to mitigate the damage done by the flyrants.
We roll off. Alan gets a billion powers and gifts, most of which I lost track of, but I win the roll to go first - and choose to go second. That means that Alan can't come to ground at the last second to hold objectives with his flyers - and I get to threaten him with my Green Tide if he does!
We deploy, and I spread out my tide in the field to prevent him from flying everywhere. I don't try to seize, and we begin.
Early Game:
Alan plays aggressively and immediately moves everything up. I was forced to keep my Mek Gunz at the VERY EDGE of my field to avoid a terrify he rolled, as my grots would test at a ld 4 to pass .... ouch!
Alan decides that the best way to stop me is to block me. As such, he summons a squads of Daemonettes, and the the run of d6+3 and fleet, he gets a good spread, blocking half my tide from moving forward.
Spoiler:
However, it also comes at a price... first blood!
On my turn, I move up and charge the tide into his Daemonettes, which evaporate. My Tankbusta shooting was rather mediocre, but I do force a couple jinks on his Flyrants. However, with the reroll for Fatey, it's hard as hell to bring the flyrants down so they can get charged!
The next turn is basically more of the same. Alan summons, moves up and shoots me - but with his Psychic powers, he manages to pin my Mek Guns using the Flyrants, which means grounding them isn't super likely. Damn! More Daemonettes continue to get in my way, and again I shoot, not doing much, while more Daemonettes die.
Mid Game:
Alan's plan to slow me down is working....to a degree. I'm not moving as fast as I normally do forward, but at the same time, I am gaining valuable ground. Alan's rolls on Maelstrom have been lucky so far, as he has been rolling to hold his own objective in the corner several times now, whereas my rolls have not been as good. As a result, he's leading in Maelstrom.
Here's what the table looks like.
This time, Alan summons not one, but TWO squads of Daemonettes to block me. Stupid Daemons, always getting in the way! Too bad this mission isn't KP.
He also starts to manage to whittle down my tankbusta's Gunwagons, and kill off some Tankbustas. As these are my only form of anti air besides my pinned Mek Gunz, this presents to be a problem.
However, to me, this is water under the bridge. My tide is largely untouched at this point in the game, and is making headway toward's Alan's end of the board. Furthermore, Alan is slowly but surely bleeding Flyrants (although his flying Daemons are basically untouched).
Spoiler:
Unfortunately....this is where the game turns a little sour.
By the time the clock rolls around to my turn (the bottom) of turn 4, we have about 30 or so minutes left. I ask Alan if he thinks we can do another turn, and he insists that we make time for one, as otherwise he wasn't playing like we would end on turn 4. I think this is fair, so I plan on doing so.
My tide finally breaks free of all of the Daemonettes and moves up to finally charge his backfield of Horrors, which will help me clear off the objectives. However, I need a good run to make it happen - I'm about 11 inches away.
Spoiler:
I roll a 3 to run. Not bad, but that means I now need a 8" charge to make it.
Meanwhile, in my backfield, I'm bleeding units. I'm down to a couple mek guns, a few tankbustas, and some gretchin. The gunwagons are dead, and one squad of Tankbustas isn't nearby, just the one you see in the picture.
Alan has a DP near one of my objectives, a flyrant near another, and a horror and daemonette unit near an objective in his deployment zone. The DP is near a squad of grots which are holding that objective, and the flyrant is near the other squad of grots holding the other. Because we have one more turn to go, I need to deal with all three at the same time, and kill the Horrors to contest Alan's objective to win primary 2-1.
I decide to go for it, and via spreading my Tide out, I use one of the biggest tricks the Green Tide has - a gigantic, huge, multiple charge.
This is the thing many people underestimate about the ability of the tide: it has the incredible potential to tie up things EVERYWHERE. Charging works like this in 7ed:
You choose a primary target, and secondary targets.
Overwatch occurs.
You roll your charge range. If you can reach the primary target, you make the charge.
After that, if you are able to engage an UNENGAGED primary target model, you do so. Otherwise, you must engage in combat. If you cannot do that, you must merely stay in coherency.
I declare the Flyrant (which is now on the ground) in my own table quarter as the Primary target. I then declare a Daemon Prince on the other end of the same board edge as my secondary, and then the horrors and a squad of daemonettes in the corner completely opposite the flyrant as a secondary target as well.
Remember now that I need an 8" to make this charge. With 'ere we go, it is likely, but not impossible, for me to fail.
Spoiler:
I roll a 9. BOOM BABY!
Spoiler:
As a result of that roll, I charge my tide into the Flyrant. However, because the tide is so spread out, a ton of models can't make it, so they just stay in coherency. This allows me to congo line them, which means I am also able to charge the horrors, the daemonettes, and the DP on the ground as well. I am now in combat in 3/4s of the board! HELLS YEAH!
Spoiler:
Unfortunately, this is where me and Alan get into difficulty.
Alan argues that because the Daemonettes were declared as a secondary target, as were the Horrors, that I must attempt to charge every single model into the Daemonettes that can engage an unengaged Daemonette model. If Alan is right, that means that I don't have the boyz to spare to also engage his horrors. This is important, as his horrors are holding an objective I need to win the game.
I argue that you only need to engage an unengaged model in the primary target unit - no such restriction exists in the rulebook for secondary targets. Since the flyrant is my primary target and no other boyz can get into him, that means that I can charge the horrors with no problem, as long as I engage every model I can, and I stay in coherency, and follow the rest of the rules for assaulting.
Spoiler:
This argument gets heated, as it basically determines the outcome of the game. If I can pull off this charge and kill the horrors, I will win. If I cannot, then that means I cannot stop his horrors from holding two objectives (as I also hold two as well) and we will tie on primary, and Alan will win on Secondary.
We call the judge, and even after 20 minutes of talking with the Judge, the judge is of no help and will not make a call one way or the other. As a result, because me and Alan cannot come to an agreement, we roll it off. On a 1-3, alan agrees I am right. On a 4-6, I agree Alan is right.
Spoiler:
We roll off and it's a 2. The multiple charge is a go.
Spoiler:
The combat goes, and although I don't win, Alan starts bleeding horrors to combat. However, they stick in combat for another round, but with Daemonic Instability, they will not last long, giving me the victory.
Unfortunately, because of the argument, we are basically out of time for turn 5, with something like 3 minutes left. Because Alan insisted for another round, we play on.
Alan moves Fatey and his remaning LoC around to try and contest one of the objectives in my backfield with his psychic shooting. He fires psychic screams, flickering fires, and even summons....and I go down to 2 grots without a runtherder.
Spoiler:
However, the grots pass their ld on a 5. Success!
We then go to combat again so I can try to kill the horrors. Again, if I can, I win the game on primary.
Spoiler:
And then the judges show up.
Because our argument took so long, Alan's turn has gone over time, and we are now holding up the rest of the tournament. Alan and I both try to argue with the judges that we merely need another 5-10 minutes to finish the game turn, but the judges insist we call it at that point. I tell them that it's the top of the turn, and that we will end before I get to go, which screws me over, but they do not give us any additional time.
As a result of this, I am unable to finish combat with Alan on his turn. This means that, among other things, I miss out on two rounds of combat to kill his horrors, and as a result, they stay alive to hold that objective.
This means that the horrors stay alive to contest the objective. I hold two of my own, and Alan holds his two, and because Alan has killed a squad of Mek Gunz and Gunwagons, he has 2 bonus primary points to Big Gunz never tire.
As a result:
[spoiler]Daemonids take Primary.
We tie on Secondary.
Orks take First Blood and Linebreaker.
Daemonids takes Linebreaker.
Daemonids win 5-2.
After game thoughts:
Spoiler:
I'm not going to lie. I was upset with this game.
Because of the argument with Alan, which took the rest of the remaining game time to solve, Alan got an extra turn 5, while I did not.
If I had known we were going to only go to round four, all I needed to do was charge his horror squad (rather then the hugeasscombat that happened). I would have easily wiped it out, and contested that objective, winning on primary.
Furthermore, if we had finished the full game turn of 5, I would have had two more rounds of combat to kill the horror squad. While that was no guarantee, with a horror squad against the green tide, it would have been extremely unlikely for them to not die.
Essentially, either way - if we had ended at the bottom of 4, or at the bottom of 5, I could have won. However, because we ended at the top of the turn, I was SOL.
Neither Alan nor I was happy with this outcome. We both walked away from the table very upset, for multiple and different reasons. The argument between us was intense, and because he insisted we play until turn 5, I didn't try to stop us at turn 4. We, of course, also had another argument about ending at the top of 5, where Alan argued we should just roll back the clock, whilst I said that wasn't possible and benefited him greatly.
As a result, the game left a bad taste in both my and Alan's mouth.
With that said, I shook his hand and honestly wished him luck in his next games, and he did the same to me. We actually ended playing again at Adepticon and had a fun game, and I think we buried the hatchet between us. It was just an upsetting game for us both.
So, at the end of this round, I have 42 points. Not bad, but I am 100%, totally, completely, exhausted. I have no food in me, the arguments with Alan drained the last energy from me, and I'm tired. Today has slowly been going downhill.
My greatest hope is that my last game is fun. Of course, I'm also hoping for top 8 at this point, but I'm so worn out that I don't have the energy to spare to worry about that.
I shall see you guys in round 6, for (maybe) finishing out the LVO!
That's too bad. Alan was wrong, there is no restriction other than you must maintain coherency with the "moved" model blob. Too bad you got a bad judge, it shouldn't have taken him 20 minutes to read 1 sentence.
Even aside from the rules dispute being a relatively simple one, it's absolutely absurd that a judge would refuse to make a call--I say this as someone who is both personal friends with Alan and acts as a judge at multiple GTs.
The fact that this occurred on round 5 at the top table only amplifies how atrocious it is. That is literally the entire point of having judges on site, and it appears the judging team let the situation spiral out of control (again, in what should have been a rather simple call to make) because they didn't want to be the bad guy knowing the game hinged on the ruling.
And then ending a game mid-turn, partially due to the incompetence of your own judging staff and knowing it will directly alter the outcome of your whole tournament? The whole thing is a mess and it looks like you got screwed in every conceivable way as a result of it.
The goal of the judging staff should be to make sure games are disrupted as little as possible in pursuit of getting the rules right; I'd go as far to say as I'd prefer a bad call be made quickly than a good one be made after 20 minutes (if that was honestly how long it took, it hurts my brain) of deliberation. Bad calls will happen (and we usually end up discussing them amongst ourselves for the next few days when they do), but you don't have the option for a rules debate the likes of a 15-page YMDC thread on the floor at a GT. You have to make a call in a reasonable timeframe or you ruin the game by needlessly shortening it and render the whole exercise pointless in the first place.
Every major tournament should have someone willing to make that call, and everybody should know who it is. At Adepticon, it's almost always Chris (the primary 40k tournament organizer) or Jon (yakface) leading the judging team, and if you either can't find a suitable answer in a short timeframe or aren't confident enough in having the correct one, you find them and they make the call.
Top tables in particular should be a focus--if time has been called and you haven't received score sheets from your top tables, you send someone over with the authority to sort things out and make sure the game turn is finished ASAP. I genuinely cannot imagine a situation where I'd force a top table to end mid-turn like that and force a player to forfeit their entire turn, short of documented slow-play issues with the player going second. The fact that this was allowed to get to the point where it was "holding up the rest of the tournament," when a judge had already been on site for 20+ minutes, is just an absolute nightmare. You make a call and you demand people start rolling dice, no stopping, no thinking, you get the turn finished.
That's a pity, really. A rule arguement screwed a game over. But nevertheless, it was good experience that you can get only from bad situations such as this one.
JimOnMars wrote:That's too bad. Alan was wrong, there is no restriction other than you must maintain coherency with the "moved" model blob. Too bad you got a bad judge, it shouldn't have taken him 20 minutes to read 1 sentence.
DJ3 wrote:Even aside from the rules dispute being a relatively simple one, it's absolutely absurd that a judge would refuse to make a call--I say this as someone who is both personal friends with Alan and acts as a judge at multiple GTs.
The fact that this occurred on round 5 at the top table only amplifies how atrocious it is. That is literally the entire point of having judges on site, and it appears the judging team let the situation spiral out of control (again, in what should have been a rather simple call to make) because they didn't want to be the bad guy knowing the game hinged on the ruling.
And then ending a game mid-turn, partially due to the incompetence of your own judging staff and knowing it will directly alter the outcome of your whole tournament? The whole thing is a mess and it looks like you got screwed in every conceivable way as a result of it.
The goal of the judging staff should be to make sure games are disrupted as little as possible in pursuit of getting the rules right; I'd go as far to say as I'd prefer a bad call be made quickly than a good one be made after 20 minutes (if that was honestly how long it took, it hurts my brain) of deliberation. Bad calls will happen (and we usually end up discussing them amongst ourselves for the next few days when they do), but you don't have the option for a rules debate the likes of a 15-page YMDC thread on the floor at a GT. You have to make a call in a reasonable timeframe or you ruin the game by needlessly shortening it and render the whole exercise pointless in the first place.
Every major tournament should have someone willing to make that call, and everybody should know who it is. At Adepticon, it's almost always Chris (the primary 40k tournament organizer) or Jon (yakface) leading the judging team, and if you either can't find a suitable answer in a short timeframe or aren't confident enough in having the correct one, you find them and they make the call.
Top tables in particular should be a focus--if time has been called and you haven't received score sheets from your top tables, you send someone over with the authority to sort things out and make sure the game turn is finished ASAP. I genuinely cannot imagine a situation where I'd force a top table to end mid-turn like that and force a player to forfeit their entire turn, short of documented slow-play issues with the player going second. The fact that this was allowed to get to the point where it was "holding up the rest of the tournament," when a judge had already been on site for 20+ minutes, is just an absolute nightmare. You make a call and you demand people start rolling dice, no stopping, no thinking, you get the turn finished.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it.
Don't get me wrong here - the judge was a really pleasant guy, but he was a really poor judge. It seemed like he didn't wanna make a ruling based on the fact that it would determine the top table game. He even went so far as to say there was a brand new FAQ released by GW on charging and how it works, and that multi charging was now TOTALLY different from what it was in the rulebook. I STILL have no clue what FAQ he was talking about - such an FAQ doesn't exist.
But yeah, after 20 minutes, he never did make a ruling. Really, I would have preferred a WRONG ruling over a 20+ minute NO ruling, because then at least I can try and come back from it by charging next turn (potentially).
Then, after taking 20 minutes of our time with no help whatsoever, the judges force us to end at the top of a turn?
Yeah, I was upset. It really, really soured my taste of the LVO - and unfortunately, it wasn't the only occasion where I wasn't impressed with the judges at LVO, as they were very hard to find, and my friends even had to deal with a drunk judge at one point.
I apologize if I come across as harsh to the LVO, here, but honestly, I really felt like it could have been run better IMHO.
koooaei wrote:That's a pity, really. A rule arguement screwed a game over. But nevertheless, it was good experience that you can get only from bad situations such as this one.
It wasn't really what I'd call a good experience. I've had plenty of games where a judge made a call I disagreed with, but as long as it's a quick decision, then I move right along and work past it. Here, it just ended up souring the game.
DCannon4Life wrote:How many judges were there? Did they confer with each other as standard (best) practice?
For the multi-charge thing, I believe it was the head judge and one other judge. For the end of the game, it was like 2-3 judges + Reecius that insisted we finish immediately.
Dozer Blades wrote: You have to really keep an eye on PJ - sad to say but true .
Hell yes you do! I am DAM SEXY.... Just try taking your eyes off me... you can't.....
---------------------------------
So anyway I got a few emails and a few facebook messages about this post and people think I should rebut and tell my side of the story but who the hell cares man...
Matt well done at the team game @ Adepticon, I hope we see each other again across the table.
OTHER PEOPLE STOP FORWARDING ME THIS LINK....... I LITERALLY DON'T CARE
Dozer Blades wrote: You have to really keep an eye on PJ - sad to say but true .
Hell yes you do! I am DAM SEXY.... Just try taking your eyes off me... you can't.....
---------------------------------
So anyway I got a few emails and a few facebook messages about this post and people think I should rebut and tell my side of the story but who the hell cares man...
Matt well done at the team game @ Adepticon, I hope we see each other again across the table.
OTHER PEOPLE STOP FORWARDING ME THIS LINK....... I LITERALLY DON'T CARE
Hey Alan!
Yeah, I tried to tell the story as unbiased as possible - obviously it was a heated game for both of us, and I think it was fair to say we were both upset at the outcome.
If you feel like I misrepresented something, let me know, I'm not trying to make you out to be the bad guy in this post (it's not like you would have known about the judge thing, after all )
NOOO!!! Now I understand why you didn't make top table. Such a bad way for it to end up. It's horribly ironic that you didn't make top 8 the time before (the thread where you won the Stompa) due to poor tournament organization. The Green Tide is being targeted by the dark chaos gods!
I totally did a double take when I saw you lose a turn. Stuff like that happens in candy land, not competitive games where you can only deal real damage on your own turn. I can't imagine a tournament giving an extra turn like that. I thought they were the place where everything was supposed to be as professional and competitive as possible, and it's just inconceivable to me that an advantage like that would exist. Especially late game on the top table where turns are really quick, you should have gotten your fair chance to win. You have my sympathies man.
Waaagh 18 wrote: NOOO!!! Now I understand why you didn't make top table. Such a bad way for it to end up. It's horribly ironic that you didn't make top 8 the time before (the thread where you won the Stompa) due to poor tournament organization. The Green Tide is being targeted by the dark chaos gods!
I totally did a double take when I saw you lose a turn. Stuff like that happens in candy land, not competitive games where you can only deal real damage on your own turn. I can't imagine a tournament giving an extra turn like that. I thought they were the place where everything was supposed to be as professional and competitive as possible, and it's just inconceivable to me that an advantage like that would exist. Especially late game on the top table where turns are really quick, you should have gotten your fair chance to win. You have my sympathies man.
The ITC rules are actually very clear. If there are 20 minutes or less left in the round, each player is entitled to half the time to complete as much of a turn as possible. Your opponent can force you to stop when your half of the time is up. Its explicitly stated in the rules packet. Theoretically, each player should have had about 90 seconds (i.e. half of the three remaining minutes) to complete turn 5. Reese stopped the match according to his published rules.
Brother I love you to death, Orks needed a good boost and your delivering it, but complaining about not eating lunch is killing me! lol, I went 2 months on short rations when the Paki's closed the border with Afghanistan and my orks still did their jobs! :-p
Ghazkuul wrote: Brother I love you to death, Orks needed a good boost and your delivering it, but complaining about not eating lunch is killing me! lol, I went 2 months on short rations when the Paki's closed the border with Afghanistan and my orks still did their jobs! :-p
Waaagh 18 wrote: NOOO!!! Now I understand why you didn't make top table. Such a bad way for it to end up. It's horribly ironic that you didn't make top 8 the time before (the thread where you won the Stompa) due to poor tournament organization. The Green Tide is being targeted by the dark chaos gods!
I totally did a double take when I saw you lose a turn. Stuff like that happens in candy land, not competitive games where you can only deal real damage on your own turn. I can't imagine a tournament giving an extra turn like that. I thought they were the place where everything was supposed to be as professional and competitive as possible, and it's just inconceivable to me that an advantage like that would exist. Especially late game on the top table where turns are really quick, you should have gotten your fair chance to win. You have my sympathies man.
The ITC rules are actually very clear. If there are 20 minutes or less left in the round, each player is entitled to half the time to complete as much of a turn as possible. Your opponent can force you to stop when your half of the time is up. Its explicitly stated in the rules packet. Theoretically, each player should have had about 90 seconds (i.e. half of the three remaining minutes) to complete turn 5. Reese stopped the match according to his published rules.
So his opponent got to do his full turn, and then Fxeni was left with 90 seconds to do his? It doesn't sound like his opponent took 90 seconds to do his turn 5...
Waaagh 18 wrote: So his opponent got to do his full turn, and then Fxeni was left with 90 seconds to do his? It doesn't sound like his opponent took 90 seconds to do his turn 5...
It was a pointless thing to mention in the first place, and only serves to make excuses for the event. Every major tournament's "published rules" officially say that the round ends immediately when time is called.
And none of them actually enforce it, because it's an absurd thing to attempt to enforce in a game where one player takes his whole turn and then the other takes their whole turn, and you can't spare a judge to stand at every single table ensuring that they're properly divying up their time of the final turn. The reason it's in the rules is so that you have something to point to when enforcement becomes necessary as part of a player or players causing an extreme disturbance.
If there was enough time to start the turn, there's enough time to end the turn. The fact that judges had already been standing at the table for nearly half an hour and let this go down the way it did is just astonishing--made moreso by the fact that it appears the delay was caused, at least in large part, by the judges themselves.
DJ3 wrote: If there was enough time to start the turn, there's enough time to end the turn. The fact that judges had already been standing at the table for nearly half an hour and let this go down the way it did is just astonishing--made moreso by the fact that it appears the delay was caused, at least in large part, by the judges themselves.
I agree with this...especially because it was the top table.
Waaagh 18 wrote: So his opponent got to do his full turn, and then Fxeni was left with 90 seconds to do his? It doesn't sound like his opponent took 90 seconds to do his turn 5...
It was a pointless thing to mention in the first place, and only serves to make excuses for the event. Every major tournament's "published rules" officially say that the round ends immediately when time is called.
And none of them actually enforce it, because it's an absurd thing to attempt to enforce in a game where one player takes his whole turn and then the other takes their whole turn, and you can't spare a judge to stand at every single table ensuring that they're properly divying up their time of the final turn. The reason it's in the rules is so that you have something to point to when enforcement becomes necessary as part of a player or players causing an extreme disturbance.
If there was enough time to start the turn, there's enough time to end the turn. The fact that judges had already been standing at the table for nearly half an hour and let this go down the way it did is just astonishing--made moreso by the fact that it appears the delay was caused, at least in large part, by the judges themselves.
I saw this game go down and agree the judge should have made a ruling and forced the game to move on. However, the tournament rules for how to play the last turn were also clear. The judge contributed to the mess, but if Fxeni had been aware of the rules he could have halted Pajama's turn and taken the bottom of his. Shared responsibility between judges and players here.
Waaagh 18 wrote: So his opponent got to do his full turn, and then Fxeni was left with 90 seconds to do his? It doesn't sound like his opponent took 90 seconds to do his turn 5...
It was a pointless thing to mention in the first place, and only serves to make excuses for the event. Every major tournament's "published rules" officially say that the round ends immediately when time is called.
And none of them actually enforce it, because it's an absurd thing to attempt to enforce in a game where one player takes his whole turn and then the other takes their whole turn, and you can't spare a judge to stand at every single table ensuring that they're properly divying up their time of the final turn. The reason it's in the rules is so that you have something to point to when enforcement becomes necessary as part of a player or players causing an extreme disturbance.
If there was enough time to start the turn, there's enough time to end the turn. The fact that judges had already been standing at the table for nearly half an hour and let this go down the way it did is just astonishing--made moreso by the fact that it appears the delay was caused, at least in large part, by the judges themselves.
I saw this game go down and agree the judge should have made a ruling and forced the game to move on. However, the tournament rules for how to play the last turn were also clear. The judge contributed to the mess, but if Fxeni had been aware of the rules he could have halted Pajama's turn and taken the bottom of his. Shared responsibility between judges and players here.
Yeah, part of the blame absolutely lies on me. I should have insisted we finish on turn 4 due to lack of time, or at the very least, split the turn 5 in half. However, in my defense, I never expected it to play out like this - It never occurred to me that 5-10 extra minutes would be that big of a deal to give to the top table, but I suppose that was a bad assumption on my part.
I had a similar time issue come up that cost me winning a tournament a few years back. Once time starts getting low in a game I always try and suggest to my opponent that we split the remaining time after turn X and we each take half to get the most possible turns in. I don't think I have ever had anyone refuse that suggestion, but if I don't enforce it, they won't volunteer the end of their turn. I have to be the bad guy.
Personally i think you should have taken the result from the end of turn 4, even if the game technically ended turn 5. That would have been the fair thing to do. But yes, you really shouldn't have started another turn with 5-10 minutes to go :/ but well done for winning (IMO)
Thank you very much Fexin. I have enjoyed your battle reports a lot. Thank you for posting them.
I was wondering about game 5, in another section a poster made a comment about killpoints or units destroyed referencing your Green tide, I think. So I was wondering where the problem actually was. I still haven't seen anything related to what that was all about.
Again thank you for posting your Battle reports.
Thanks for the report fxeni
As far as I heard this wasn't the only bad ruling by the judges in his favor. During his round 2 game a judge gave him a huge bonus on his Tyranids that allowed him to make shadows of the warp effect all enemy units and not just psykers. I have no idea how bad a judge or easily pushed around a judge had to be to make that bad of a call; on Reece's behalf though it was eventually overruled after that game (still he got a huge freebie round 2) that all future games would not allow shadows of the warp to work on all enemy units. Maybe that was the same judge and after his first horrible call in pjs favor he was to timid to make any additional calls.
Game 6! Well, I'm just off my first loss, and a somewhat frustrating game, so at this point I'm hoping to A) have a good game and B) maybe pull out making the top 8. I've no idea where I sit points-wise, and there isn't any time for me to take a break before my next game, so onto my game I go!
Justin Rockhill's Eldar!
Again, confession time. I totally forgot to take a picture of my opponent, and google didn't yield me a result this time. Sorry! I WAS MUCH BETTER AT ADEPTICON I PROMISE. (Also, I lost his name, but I'm pretty sure it was Justin.... )
Eldar, eh? Well, not shocked there. Eldar are EVERYWHERE here. His list (from memory)....
2x Farseer on Bike
4x (?) Bike Squads
Lynx
Autarch on Bike
Wraithknight
anddd....
9X FRIGGEN DUAL SCATTER LASER WARWALKERS.
Primary: Modified Scouring
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, First Blood
Deployment: Dawn of War
HOLY gak THAT IS A LOT OF LASER FIRE.
Man, talk about mixed feelings. A lynx doesn't really scare me, but those warwalkers can put out 108 shots a turn, which can utterly obliterate my boyz! Especially considering he has Guide and Prescience on his Farseer, this game could go poorly for me reaaallly quick!
We roll off. Justin takes Prescience, Guide, and Summon, and doom! I get the opportunity to go first or second, and I decide (somewhat hesitantly) to go first in an effort to catch him quick.
I deploy spread out my green tide to move up ASAP. He deploys one set of warwalkers on one end of the board, and everything else on the other end of the board.
He doesn't seize and we begin.
Early Game:
I move up ASAP and run my tide to try and get as close as possible. Fortunately for me, there are some hills to block LOS for my tide, but not enough to entirely mitigate Justin's shooting. Meanwhile, since his Scatter Lasers don't scare the AV13 on my Looted Wagons, I move my Tankbustas up and flat out them as close as possible to his Lynx and Warwalkers to threaten them. My shooting is pitiful, and my KMKs don't do much.
Justin's turn rolls around. He moves his Lynx onto the ruins in his deployment zone and fires at my VSG to take it out before starting to unload his Scatter Lasers upon my tide. While the VSG absorbs a fair amount of firepower, it isn't long until I start bleeding a SERIOUS amount of boys. However, by moving up, I force Justin to stay back and I start to gain Maelstrom Points. Justin also summons a squad of bloodletters (that was the only demon squad he had painted for LVO!)
On turn 2, my Tankbustas turn, look, and see the glorious, glorious Lynx sitting utop the ruins in front of them. The call is irresistible.
The tankbustas move up and get outta the Looted Wagons (both squads!) and run forward to try and get at the Lynx. After running, and WITH the Boarding Planks, I'm going to need a 7" charge on one squad and 8" on the other. Meanwhile, my tide continues to move up, but due to bleeding bodies in turn 1, I've lost a lot of ground. Again, my shooting is pitiful.
We go to the charge....I roll for the Tankbustas.....
Spoiler:
Tankbusta Squad #1, the one that needs a 7, rolls a 5. I reroll one of the dice and get a 6 total. DAMNIT!
Spoiler:
Then Tankbusta Squad #2, the one that needs an 8", rolls a 10! BOOM BABY!
Spoiler:
The Tankbusta Squad moves up and rolls for Meltabombs. Remember that, due to holofields, I need a 3+ to hit and then a 4+ to get through. I end up rolling and getting 6 hits through!
The Tankbustas blow the Lynx SKY HIGH! That's First Blood + 2 Maelstrom Points + another point for getting First Blood with the Tankbustas! BOOM BABY!
Impressively enough, the explosion only kills 2-3 Tankbustas because of the cover save from the ruins.
Justin, however, is now out for blood. On his turn, he moves up his Bloodletters, his Wraithknight, and one squad of Warwalkers in an attempt to charge my tide. He also moves up his farseer + Autarch + Bike squad and decides to charge my Tankbustas who smell of freshly blown up Lynx. His other Warwalker squad obliterates the Tankbustas out in the open, and only 2-3 guys live because of lack of LOS.
Justin then rolls his charges for the 3 units into my tide (the Wraithknight, the Warwalkers, and the Bloodletters....)
Spoiler:
BAM! Justin makes all 3 in!
Spoiler:
He also makes a charge into my Tankbustas who killed the Lynx, and promptly kills them all! Damn!
Now my tide can't get shot, but is also going to be slow about killing things too because it is so spread out. The board looks like this.
Mid-Game: At this point, I'm massively leading Justin on Maelstrom points, but I'm also losing boys quickly. Combined between the shooting and the assaults, I've bled a LOT of Boyz, and even though I'm in combat where I want to be, I'm still having trouble killing Justin's stuff.
Meanwhile, back in my deployment zone, I'm just kind of hunkering down. My artillery and gretchin are basically holding the fort, and my KMKs aren't doing much either.
At this point in the game, it basically becomes a slugfest. Every time I kill something (the Wraithknight, for example), Justin throws something else into the grinder (His Autarch and Farseer bike squad, for example). However, his 5++ invuls on his Warwalkers are on FIRE and I can't kill the damn things with str 3 boyz! In addition, he's got doom on me, which is quite painful for my Boyz! I'm slowly losing this battle!
I eventually proceed to kill one squad of Warwalkers, only for Justin to charge in another squad! THEN, my tankbustas charge THOSE Warwalkers, only to wipe them out!
An eye for an eye - Justin kills some boyz, I kill a unit. Justin charges in another unit and kills some more boyz, and I kill another unit!
By the time we come down to turn 5, my tide is whittled down to very little. Two squads of Warwalkers are dead, along with his Farseers, Autarch, a bike squad, but my tide is down to around <10 guys, and the bloodletters are basically unhurt. Meanwhile, my backfield is basically untouched.
I decide to go for the denial here. My remaining Gunwagons flat out onto objectives, and my grots spread out to hold my own objective in my own deployment zone. My deffkopta also goes and flats out into his deployment zone for linebreaker.
For the entire game, my KMKs have been entirely...meh. They have a chance to make up for that here, because there are a ball of 3 bikers sitting next to a midfield objective just ready to get blown sky high!
The Artillery fires....
Spoiler:
Does 3-4 wounds....
Spoiler:
And Justin makes every damn cover save. Well, crap.
Justin, on his turn, just zips his bikes and remaining Warwalkers onto various objectives, hoping the game will end now.
At the bottom of the turn, we go to combat. Because of the way the combat stretched out, my tide actually ends up LOSING the battle, and because I'm below 10 guys, I'm now no longer effectively fearless. Uh oh!
Spoiler:
I roll my leadership...and get an 11! DAMN! My warlord is left in there, and I don't want Justin to get that point....meaning if I get swept or the game ends, I'm screwed!
Spoiler:
I then remember my mob rule, and roll it....YES! It's a 1! I have a nob left! The tide sticks!!!!!
We then roll to see if the game ends....
Spoiler:
And it's a 1. Game over.
Spoiler:
Justin, with his crazy fast Obj Sec bikes, holds more objectives then me. However, I'm rocking him in Maelstrom. My warlord lived, whilst I killed his. I also got first blood, and we both got linebreaker.
As a result:
Eldar take Primary.
Orks take Secondary.
Orks take First Blood and Linebreaker and Warlord.
Eldar take Linebreaker.
Orks win 6-5
.
After Game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Woof, those Warwalkers were exactly what I thought they were: 100% brutal against my tide. It was this game that made me realize I need a way to mitigate such shooting, which lead me to take the Warboss Biker in future games (since he can get a 2+ jink rerollable).
The combat also didn't play out quite like I thought - Warwalkers did quite a number on my tide not only in shooting, but also in combat. Being Str 5 with Doom, and impossible to kill for Boyz (with a 5++ against Klaw attacks) is actually surprisingly good against a Tide. By the end of the game, I was down to less then 10 boyz and my warboss (with a nob or two).
I believe, in retrospect, it was a mistake to go first in this game. I should have counter deployed and gone for the final game turn objective seize, but in truth, I got cocky and assumed I would be able to punch Justin out in combat easily. Lesson learned!
On the bright side, seeing the Tankbustas get another First Blood LoW kill was incredibly satisfying.
So, what's the final result of this? At the end of game 6, I have 48 points. It turns out that to get into the top 8, I need 49 points. I missed it....by one - measly - point.
So, I was slightly dissapointed in that, but hell - getting 9th at LVO is still something to be proud of! After all, it was my goal to prove Orks could cut it, and I think that making 9th is a damn good place to start.
Thus ends my tales of the Championships at LVO. My Orks brought the WAAAGH to many, and I hope there will be tales of it to come. However, this isn't the last of the green tide - not by a long shot - and they shall be seen in many more tournaments before they are done.
Stay tuned for my Adepticon battle reports, as well as a grading of my list and what did or did not work soon to follow! See you then, folks!
yermom wrote: Hey Matt, how would a warboss on bike get a 2+ rerollable jink save?
Well, it requires a bit of luck or serendipity....
If I can go first on night fight, and turbo boost the boss in the tide, his 3+ cover becomes a 2+ cover. Since he has a lucky stikk to reroll failed saves, it's effectively a 2+ reroll.
The other possibility is with mysterious objectives. If any member of my tide can be in top of the +1 cover objective, that can also modify my cover into a 2+ rerollable.
It's certainly not a guarantee, but it happens far more often then you might think otherwise.
I just wanted to clarify something regarding your mob rule roll.
The roll for having a character attached was 2-3. A roll of 1 is if you are in combat you auto pass. I just wanted to know if there was something else I was missing?
yermom wrote: Hey Matt, how would a warboss on bike get a 2+ rerollable jink save?
Well, it requires a bit of luck or serendipity....
If I can go first on night fight, and turbo boost the boss in the tide, his 3+ cover becomes a 2+ cover. Since he has a lucky stikk to reroll failed saves, it's effectively a 2+ reroll.
The other possibility is with mysterious objectives. If any member of my tide can be in top of the +1 cover objective, that can also modify my cover into a 2+ rerollable.
It's certainly not a guarantee, but it happens far more often then you might think otherwise.
Unless I am missing something here, turbo boost does not confer a +1 to cover, you still only have a 3+. I also wouldn't really count on a good cover save to tank a ton-o-wounds. Tau and other races have ignore cover here and there. Still works on most things tho.. but that T4 biker boss... :(
Plain old or warbikes add +1 to the cover saves when they turbo boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also is this the green tide formation from the waagh ghazghkull supplement? If so the warboss can't take a warbike unless he's from a separate detachment and attaches to it.
yermom wrote: Hey Matt, how would a warboss on bike get a 2+ rerollable jink save?
Well, it requires a bit of luck or serendipity....
If I can go first on night fight, and turbo boost the boss in the tide, his 3+ cover becomes a 2+ cover. Since he has a lucky stikk to reroll failed saves, it's effectively a 2+ reroll.
The other possibility is with mysterious objectives. If any member of my tide can be in top of the +1 cover objective, that can also modify my cover into a 2+ rerollable.
It's certainly not a guarantee, but it happens far more often then you might think otherwise.
Unless I am missing something here, turbo boost does not confer a +1 to cover, you still only have a 3+. I also wouldn't really count on a good cover save to tank a ton-o-wounds. Tau and other races have ignore cover here and there. Still works on most things tho.. but that T4 biker boss... :(
Ork Bikers get a 3+ when they turbo boost - it's a special rule for them.
Dozer Blades wrote:The Forge World Warboss biker confers a 2++ jink save for Warbikes when they TB .
Also true, although that investment is a bit higher!
mhalko1 wrote:I just wanted to clarify something regarding your mob rule roll.
The roll for having a character attached was 2-3. A roll of 1 is if you are in combat you auto pass. I just wanted to know if there was something else I was missing?
The green tide is a ghazgkull detachment, meaning it adds 2 to the roll for mob rule. As such, a 1 is actually a 3 - the character one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mhalko1 wrote: Plain old or warbikes add +1 to the cover saves when they turbo boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also is this the green tide formation from the waagh ghazghkull supplement? If so the warboss can't take a warbike unless he's from a separate detachment and attaches to it.
This is the other warboss (the lucky stikk warboss) who takes the bike, not the green tide warboss.
I recently just got done taking my Orks (my favorite army) to the Renegade 
.
Da Finkin' Cap is there to roll for the infiltrate, which I can put on the Meganobz if I desire, and everything besides the artillery basically rushes upfield. Honestly, I'd like to take a second squad of Gun Wagons if I could, but Gun Wagons only hold 10 models - which means the warbosses can't hop in if I need em to, hence the Big Trakks. I've only played this list at local tournaments, but it has done well, and it is a TON of fun to play. Funny side note: The list has a total of 81 Power Klaw attacks on the charge! 
), 
), and losing it will likely cost me many games - the 1 point makes that big of a difference!
Also, to be clear - Zhard only prevents you from taking Artillery when he's your warlord, not when he's in your list.
Or you fail miserably rolling a ton of 
, loose too many guyz to 
Too bad this mission isn't 
and I can't kill the damn things with