When debating dusting my Iyanden army off, a fellow dakka poster shared a video he had seen. That finally swayed me. And I thought I'd start this thread.

Eldar have for a while been a very powerful army when played in certain ways. Though I can't see this play style change to much, there are some rumoured changes and some confirmed changes that may see the balance of power shift slightly.

It has been confirmed that they will have a detachment that will be built of formations. Similar to the new necron and Daemonkin books. Although we don't know what benefits these will grant, it does show that the 'core' component of that detachment pretty much always requires vyper jetbikes. Now these are units I haven't seen played very much, but if they are to become a tax, it would be interesting to hear how people will field them?

For a while wave serpents have been almost an auto include for those tournament strength lists. I would assume that holo fields are going to be changed to match those of the harlequins, so they'll be a little weaker. Also, it has kind of been confirmed that scatter lasers have lost laser lock. This obviously has a huge impact on how the serpent will play. Especially if the shield hasn't changed. It might not see so much aggressive play. But then some people may still be inclined to fire the Shields. What fo people think?

Jetbikes seem to have had a buff. It has been confirmed that they can exchange their shuriken catapults for either a shuriken cannon or for a scatter laser. But the biggest buff for jetbikes is that it says ANY model may replace.... So you could if you were so inclined, have a full squad of cannons. They also have new models, along with kits for farseers and warlocks on jetbikes. It seems there is a God after all.

I have also noticed that the warlocks entry States they may generate psychic powers from their own discipline and from.the sanctic discipline. This means no more summoning daemons. I for one welcome this change, though I wonder if they will still perils on any roll of a double for that discipline. Could be interesting.

EDIT: So with a lot of leaked images and such we now know a great deal more about the book. I was going to attempt to write a good/average/bad section on this thread and give people a bit of a tactical guide. But it seems that almost every unit is good. We're very very lucky players. I'll go in to some units. It'll take me a while though as I'm doing this on nights at work, so it'll be a slow trickle of thread updates.

First is the HQ Section.
A lot of the phoenix Lords seem playable now. Relatively decent buffs and not too expensive. I can see them being used.

Warlocks now take a HQ slot. Of course they can be taken as a conclave. They can't be split up when taken like this, but that isn't an issue as the units that took them before can have them as squad upgrades. The way their brotherhood of psykers rule works is interesting too. In a conclave of 1-3 they're ML1. 4-6 ML2 and 7+ ML3. If you drop below any if the thresholds they lose a generated power. But the eldar player selects this so it isn't that bad. But the biggest bonus is that each warlock generates a warp charge. So although a squad of ten is ML3, they will generate 10 warp charge.

Spiritseers. Not much to say about these guys. Lost a great power they had from the iyanden supplement in voice of twilight. But spirit marking is now an area effect power. Which is a bonus. However with the whole world crying about the power of our dead, they may not see much play. And if you're looking for a cheap HQ tax in a CAD then a warlock is only 35 points.

Farseers. I actually personally see these guys as power houses now. Their powers are relatively similar to before with a few decent changes. The one I'm most excited about is Eldritch Storm. WC4 and you have an apocalyptic large blast, with fleshbane, haywire and AP3. Wow. Take the spirit stone relic and he gets that 10" blast on 3WC. He does lose his invulnerable for the turn, but if he's on a jetbike he has 3+ armour anyway. He also has the ability to re roll selected dice on a psychic test, and so has a high chance of successfully manifesting. And his ghost helm to negate a wound due to perils, and take him in a seer council to cast in a 3+ and start large blasting everywhere!

Lastly, and for me the biggest confirmed point so far. Wraithknights. They were powerful before, it seems they have been buffed. This will be especially true if they stay a jump unit. They are now granted gargantuan monstrous creature status. So no more falling over to sniper and poisoned fire. And Feel no Pain goodness too. This makes them a lot more survivable. Add that to the fact that the ghost glaive has been granted strength D, as have distort weapons and surely it has become even more of an auto include? I wonder how much it has affected it's points value?

Well, let me know what you think. If you know of anything else confirmed. I will happily update this post. Importantly I want to know how people will make use of these changes. How it will affect our style of play. Personally, I'm very excited.

Unless the actual rules change:

CAD: Farseer + Scatter Bikes + WK
2 CAD: Farseer + Scatter Bikes + WK

Win games.

I think it'll depend on what the new detachment offers.

Assuming the wraith knight moves to LOW...

Run a cad with 6 units of bikes with 6 scatter lasers and warlocks, 2 far seers on bikes, a wraithknight, fill heavy support with d-cannons

There is no mention of the wraithknight moving to LoW. In fact, the glimpse I have had of the new detachment is that the wraithknight can work similar to the daemon engines in the daemonkin book. So with a singular core choice you can field 8 or so wraithknights. Obviously points permitting.

herohammer wrote:
Assuming the wraith knight moves to LOW...

Run a cad with 6 units of bikes with 6 scatter lasers and warlocks, 2 far seers on bikes, a wraithknight, fill heavy support with d-cannons

Yeah pretty much this. A+++ objective holding, B+ durability, A+++ firepower, A++ threat range, A+++ speed, A+ psychic synergy, B- assault. Probably the best all-round grades of any list I've ever seen like...maybe ever.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Well, let me know what you think. If you know of anything else confirmed. I will happily update this post. Importantly I want to know how people will make use of these changes. How it will affect our style of play. Personally, I'm very excited.

Easy answer. If my opponent brings out a load of jetbikes and WK, I will politely tell them to off.

I am extremely disappointed with the leaks and will bet that either the rest of the Codex is gak so Eldar are forced to be a monobuild dex or on par with the Jetbikes and WK - and if this is the case, why bother playing any other army?

I didn't like playing eldar with my BA and DA before, but you COULD beat them. Now.... If this all remains true I will simply go home before playing against an eldar player.

 Frozocrone wrote:


I am extremely disappointed with the leaks and will bet that either the rest of the Codex is gak so Eldar are forced to be a monobuild dex or on par with the Jetbikes and WK - and if this is the case, why bother playing any other army?

my guess is between these 2 options. With all the D weapons becoming well...D weapons, the hemlock will be bonkers and I can see using minimum size DE ally detachments to get Webway portals to use to drop scythe guard units on people. Imagine whole units of D templates dropping without scattering.


I assume all aspect warriors will be nerfed, probably even including the bad ones. Guardians will stay the same.

Tch, people beeing overly pessimistic before the codex is actually out. So what they get bikes with scatter lasers? Just adapt to it and stop them..it's not like that'll be easy, but if there are no more serpents to spam, then cover becomes Valuable, and Eldar Biker aren't exactly what I'd call cc monsters. Chase them with something quick and tanky, no problem~

They will affect play style in that you won't get a game if you're playing eldar, as no-one else will play you and mirror matches will devolve into who goes first and causes the other side to jink first.

You'll see a transition from scatterlasers to shuri cannons since this will force the eldar jetbikes to jink instead of tanking on their armour because rending bladestorm is a thing.

There will be the occasional eldar-meta shift around taking a warlock or not, but I think the warlock will be worth 2 more jetbikes more often than not.

Things will probably go in waves around taking a wraithknight vs some wraithguard in a serpent as supplementry units, but I suspect that wraithguard will win if they get str D on a 6 instead of instant death like now.

 Vaeleria wrote:
Tch, people beeing overly pessimistic before the codex is actually out. So what they get bikes with scatter lasers? Just adapt to it and stop them..it's not like that'll be easy, but if there are no more serpents to spam, then cover becomes Valuable, and Eldar Biker aren't exactly what I'd call cc monsters. Chase them with something quick and tanky, no problem~

You do realize that Eldar Jetbikes are the fastest unit in the game right? They move 12 and turbo boost 36 inches. If anything gets close to them they'll just move 48" away.

You forgot battlefocus.

Boosting units don't shoot, do they? At least here they don't. So what if they move 12" and then another 36"? that means they're not shooting. And there's enough stuff out there that'll force them to either constantly move or get caught. Maybe we'll see more meele-bikers in space marine-lists, instead of silly grav-spam

 Vaeleria wrote:
Boosting units don't shoot, do they? At least here they don't. So what if they move 12" and then another 36"? that means they're not shooting. And there's enough stuff out there that'll force them to either constantly move or get caught. Maybe we'll see more meele-bikers in space marine-lists, instead of silly grav-spam

Heck they don't even need to turbo boost. They can just jump 2d6 in the assault phase instead and can still shoot if they do. That plus 12" out paces most units' 12"+d6 run.

Or they just counter assault you with a wraithknight that now weilds D weapons

Just bring the right tool to that party then. Ini 1 Wraithknight is no real threat with the right things..especially if it gets blinded. *shrugs* New codex means new strategies, no reason to paint it all black before one has played against this stuff, no?

 Vaeleria wrote:
Just bring the right tool to that party then. Ini 1 Wraithknight is no real threat with the right things..especially if it gets blinded. *shrugs* New codex means new strategies, no reason to paint it all black before one has played against this stuff, no?

The new wraith knight isn't i1, it swings at i1 if taking sD. Its still is i5 for blind checks.

And what unit that is a threat at killing gargantuan creatures is also going to be good at chasing down the bikes?

 Vaeleria wrote:
Tch, people beeing overly pessimistic before the codex is actually out. So what they get bikes with scatter lasers? Just adapt to it and stop them..it's not like that'll be easy, but if there are no more serpents to spam, then cover becomes Valuable, and Eldar Biker aren't exactly what I'd call cc monsters. Chase them with something quick and tanky, no problem~

Why would cover suddenly be valuable? Scatter lasers are AP6, so most units will be getting their armor saves anyway.

Unless you have tons of 2+ cover laying around your table, I don't see how cover is going to be relevant at all. Scatter-laser spam jetbikes are overwhelming you with volume of fire, not low AP weapons.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Vaeleria wrote:
Just bring the right tool to that party then. Ini 1 Wraithknight is no real threat with the right things..especially if it gets blinded. *shrugs* New codex means new strategies, no reason to paint it all black before one has played against this stuff, no?

The new wraith knight isn't i1, it swings at i1 if taking sD. Its still is i5 for blind checks.

And what unit that is a threat at killing gargantuan creatures is also going to be good at chasing down the bikes?

And if it wants to go at i5, it's not going to be sD is it? It doesn't have a high amount of attacks so something with a decent invul and high strength attacks will probably give it a decent run.

I wouldn't trust the recounts in the WD completely, they're known for retrying until they get a better sounding result to help sales and showing off.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Vaeleria wrote:
Tch, people beeing overly pessimistic before the codex is actually out. So what they get bikes with scatter lasers? Just adapt to it and stop them..it's not like that'll be easy, but if there are no more serpents to spam, then cover becomes Valuable, and Eldar Biker aren't exactly what I'd call cc monsters. Chase them with something quick and tanky, no problem~

Why would cover suddenly be valuable? Scatter lasers are AP6, so most units will be getting their armor saves anyway.

Unless you have tons of 2+ cover laying around your table, I don't see how cover is going to be relevant at all. Scatter-laser spam jetbikes are overwhelming you with volume of fire, not low AP weapons.

Shouldn't the shuriken cannon spam actually be more concerning with bladestorm?

The WK is going to take sD melee (and as such will probably also have 5++). My point was it wasn't going to get blinded to oblivion.

The WK is a gargantuan now so has FNP and is basically immune to sniper and poison. With T8 and most likely 5++/5+ FNP it will take a lot of S8+ AP2 to actually down a WK reliably. The "battle reports" from WD have nothing to do with it.

What unit is good at it? A ravenwing command squad with priest and mace of redemption for example., Rad grenades stealing one toughness, so plasma-cutters start to hurt (they also do on normal jetbikes if they get hit with the grenade, insta-kill as they only have T3 remaining).

And what I meant with cover is the fact that rather low-armor vehicles get a chance to stay on the field if they have decent cover.

Oh and, a knight hit and wounded by a grav gun goes with Ini 1, especially against incoming blinding tests either by a Landspeeder Storm or a meele charge with the burning blade.

Those new things are hyped way above their worth already, also, if the eldar-lists change, so what? Just adapt and find new ways to kill them, it's not impossible. Leadership tests are dangerous for them with 3d6" retreat, so one can work that way as well. They don't do much against invisible units either...

No it's not impossible.

Provided of course, you have a strong enough Alpha/Beta Strike to cause a considerable dent into the 160 Scatter shots/120 Shuriken shots that are on the board or have the durability to weather the storm

How do you expect those units to get close enough to the WK to hurt it when they are going to get killed by the volley of 160 S6 from the bikes turn 1?

Let's see - you bring forth your melee stuff, either in transports or afoot.

EACH Eldar bike (not 1 in 3) can have either a S6 AP6 Heavy 4 weapon of a S6 AP5 Heavy 3 pseudo-rending weapon. 10 bikes in either config will cost 270p. Can you think about ANY other unit, at 270p, able to shoot 40 S6 AP6 or 30 S6 AP5 (5 being AP2, average)? Heck, even Wraiths die to that.

So no, your melee units won't reach the bikes. They'll keep kiting you until you're close enough... them turbo-boost to the other side. Rinse and repeat.

I'm looking forward to add jetbikes to my Tau as both objective grabbers and T6-/AV10 board control. Who needs Fire Warriors?

The worst thing I can think of is that Eldar are supposed to be mobile and counter the enemy with manoeuvrability and yet they can totally do gunline well, yet still be good in Maelstrom.

Way to go GW.

IIRC, someone in the rumour thread noted that in the battle reports, the WK attacked after a Bloodthirster with Init 9 but before a Bloodthirster with the Init 1 D Axe. Seems likely that the WK will keep swingin' at Init 5.

Tactic one. Set down jetbikes. Tactic two. Win effortlessly. Tactic three. Save yourself hours of playing as nobody ever plays you again.

From BoLS

3 new plastic kits :
– Eldar Windriders : 3 new motojets with all the weapon choices available.
– Eldar Farseer Skyrunner : 1 eldar farseer or warlock (2 heads and 2 weapons choice).
– Eldar Autarch : no options

New codex of 160 pages with description of 11 craftworld (nothing about specific rules for them).
2 new specific psy discipline (battle runes and fate runes).

One FOC like the necron :
1-3 guardian hosts (3 types available)
0-3 Regent of the warhost (Heroes, seer council, living legends (avatar and phoenix lords))
1-12 formation for each guardian ost (outcasts, crimson death, dire avenger shrine, wraith host, aspect host, wraith-construct, engines of vaul)

Distorsion wepon = D-weapon.
CC weapon of the wraithknight is D weapon.
The wraithknight is now a Gargantuan creature. Nothing said about Lord of War.

No relation between FOC and Distorsion weapon. They speak of distorsion weapon in general are D weapon. No weapon profile.

It is said that the distorsion weapon are very powerfull weapons and that is why they have the rule Destruction. After it is said that the wraithknight is equipped of 2 of them (Heavy wraith canon).

“scatter lasers now lost the twin linking bonus, however windriders can now get scatter lasers. (each model can change the TL shuriken catapult for either scatter laser or shuriken cannon)”

“windriders: same pts as before.
3 windriders

statline unchanged.

may include up to 7 additional windriders for same points as before
may take a windriderwarlock for same points as before pts
warlock may replace his hagun zar for a runespear for the same points as before
each windrider may exchange the TL shuriken catapult for:
scatter laser or
shuriken cannon, both same points. shuriken cannon as before.

that means you can basically have a 10 man unit entirely kitted with scatterlasers for 27ppm and add another warlock to them

they also are still troop selections. i think the meta shifts again.

the only other interresting things are those leaked 2 datacards and the 1 leaked psychic power in the WD:

runes of battle 1
destroy/renew
warpcharge 1

its either:
S5 ap 4 assault1, soulblaze flamer
or:
a friendly unit within 18″ restores a single wound. this cannot bring units back to the board that have been removed as casuality.

and for the datacards:

11: 1 victory point if you kill a character (not just in a challenge, just a character)
12: gain a victory point if a enemy unit got killed by a eldar unit with the skimmer or eldar jetbike type. gain d3 vitory points if you killed 3 or more in one round. ”

 SarisKhan wrote:
IIRC, someone in the rumour thread noted that in the battle reports, the WK attacked after a Bloodthirster with Init 9 but before a Bloodthirster with the Init 1 D Axe. Seems likely that the WK will keep swingin' at Init 5.

This is what I thought. I'm pretty sure the wraithknight isn't initiative one. Hello super hard counter to imperial knight lists.

There's a lot of hating the new eldar book on here. This thread was intended to be more about how us eldar players will adapt to the new book. Not how much you all hate it and don't want to play anymore.

I think the wraithknight rules are a welcome change. Look at the size of the thing. It towers above a imperial knight. And when you consider the size of the glaive, it's probably accurate it becomes strength D.

As for the jetbikes, being able to exchange every weapon surprises me. As an eldar player I welcome it, and I never used to run jetbikes. My tau friend certainly won't be happy. But I do wonder if they have become the single most OP troops choice in the game now?

We don't even know yet if that Windriders can all have heavy weapons is true at all.

Hollismason wrote:
We don't even know yet if that Windriders can all have heavy weapons is true at all.

We do. There is a video of the new white dwarf, and it is clear as day.

Oh that's good to know.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh that's good to know.

It is if you're an eldar player and a jetbike fan. It isn't if you're anybody else....

Did they finally change the save to 4+?

No, the save is still 3+. They also now have the option to take a warlock in the squad. But that's just th same points as it used to be.


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One thing I have noticed, the warlocks entry States that they are allowed to generate powers from their own discipline, or from sanctic. I shall add this in to the original post, but I would assume that would mean they can no longer summon daemons. (I used to hate that anyway) but I wonder if they still perils on any double with sanctic?

I'll wait till the book hits the shelves to come to an actual conclusion, but thus far I'm not optimistic.

Eldar with their currect dex might as well be called Codex: Farseers, bikes, waveserpents and WK.

The fact that they seem to have buffed the bikes and WK in the new dex, and produced a new farseer model on a bike, means that unless there are even more powerful things added the only change in the meta will be more bikes instead of serpents - bikes who will do exactly the same job as the waveserpents did before and spam bucket loads of str 6 shots.

And here I was hoping for more diversity....

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'll wait till the book hits the shelves to come to an actual conclusion, but thus far I'm not optimistic.

Eldar with their currect dex might as well be called Codex: Farseers, bikes, waveserpents and WK.

The fact that they seem to have buffed the bikes and WK in the new dex, and produced a new farseer model on a bike, means that unless there are even more powerful things added the only change in the meta will be more bikes instead of serpents - bikes who will do exactly the same job as the waveserpents did before and spam bucket loads of str 6 shots.

And here I was hoping for more diversity....

I am still hopeful. The way the new detachments are working I really like. You are rewarded for taking formations. They gain you bonuses. They are encouraging people to take units that aren't seen all that often. Take the core selections for this eldar book for example. As I have seen, every core has a requirement for Vyper Jetbikes.

Of course, if we're talking tournament, you'll be looking at CADS and spam. But that's pretty much true of any army.

Has anyone seen the entry for Scatter Lasers? Has it been confirmed that it is still S6 ?

Seconding the call for any information about the weapon profiles -- if the Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon have been nerfed, then maybe these bikes will stay on the outer edge of reasonable.

However, since SCannons are in Harlequins as well, and they're the same, it just has to be the Scatter Laser.

Maybe they're S5 AP6 4 shots, with no special rules? That would at least restrict Jetbikes to mostly anti-infantry duty. Since SCannons are only 24" and only 3 shots, Jetbikes with SCannons are still on the very edge of not entirely absolutely broken. Unfortunately, possible SL nerfs can't get worse than that, otherwise it'd be strictly worse than the SC, and they cost exactly the same points.

The only other thing that could potentially help keep Jetbikes from being absolutely broken would be if the Warhost detachment had restrictions on the number of special weapons jet bikes in that detachment could have. That wouldn't restrict a CAD at all, but who knows. We can also hope against hope that this is a typo in the WD.

Scatter Lasers are visually confirmed to be S6 AP 6 Heavy 4 weapons with 36" range. No Laser Lock anymore.

There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Scatter Lasers are visually confirmed to be S6 AP 6 Heavy 4 weapons with 36" range. No Laser Lock anymore.

No laser Lock?

That makes the 160 shots totally fair.

 Frozocrone wrote:
The worst thing I can think of is that Eldar are supposed to be mobile and counter the enemy with manoeuvrability and yet they can totally do gunline well, yet still be good in Maelstrom.

Way to go GW.

You used to pay linearly for durability, firepower, and speed, with cumulative multipliers for rare units maximizing combinations of those.

Somewhere along the line, Eldar became the most durable army, with the best firepower, and the best speed, and they don't pay the points premiums that other armies do.

Was there any confirmation on WK point costs?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Was there any confirmation on WK point costs?

Not as of yet. But I can only assume with the status change to gargantuan monstrous creature, which grants FnP and makes them more durable to poison and such, along with the addition of a D strength melee weapon that the points must surely be going up.

Alrighty then, yep, Windrider Jetbikes seem beyond the pale.

I can easily see Tournaments releasing immediate FAQs taking it back to 1 Heavy Weapon per 3, as in previous codex iirc. This is an easy change that would make Jetbikes basically what they are now -- still very good, but not totally broken. the LVO/BAO already did the Invis nerf and the 2+ re-roll nerf, a change in this kind would keep the tournament scene working. If enough TOs make this change, and if the social contract can still keep casual games reasonable, then maybe the community can keep the bad effects to a minimum.


People have also been talking about the Wraithguard weapons being Destroyer of some kind. This is kind of speculation, but if it's something like "gains Destroyer rule on to-hit rolls of 6" then it's still reasonable. Distortion weapons already do nasty damage, but are limited by the expense, slowness, and short-range of the platform. Making them a bit more killy to me doesn't break Wraithguard yet, because the limitations are still in place, and getting around those forces your army to do certain things (forces allying with DE for example). It's definitely a buff to them, but I'm not sure as to whether it's at the point where it needs to be comped yet.

Oh look ranged d is already banned by ITC and every local club that follows those rules. Guess those elder players can place those wraith knoghts and wraith guard on the same shelf that holds thier revenent Titans collecting dust.

Now about those jetbikes!

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes.

actually I haven't seen much defending since the WD leaks.

Also I hope the hard counter to the new Eldar is dark angels that'd be p funny. Land Raiders full of Ruststalkers protected by 4++ PFG and Black Knights?

What's another hard counter against those bikes and D shooting? Green Tide or IG blob?

Tournament nerfs really amuse me. And have stopped me from attending tournaments sometimes.

The 'I don't like that rule, so you can't have it' attitude is really disappointing. We all have the same choices in this game. To nerf specific rules is a bit of a joke. GW wrote the rules that way for a reason. I'm not saying that they make perfect game systems, or that they don't make sometimes painful mistakes. But the rules are the rules.

We will see what the tournament scene does. But most people bring enough tools to deal with MEQ. And that's all a jetbike is.

So far, the nerfs that have happened in the American tournament scene since 6th dropped have all been very mild -- America hasn't really gone in for large-scale Comp since before 5th Edition, I think.

The pre-emptive nerf (1 heavy per 3) I have suggested does not prevent Jetbikes from being taken at all, just restricting them to a point where their firepower doesn't render all other options obsolete.

The difference between a MEQ and a new jet bike is that most MEQs don't get Scatter Lasers and 12" movement + 2d6" assault move after firing. The weak point of Tactical Marines is that they generally do nothing offensively. Most competitive armies using Tactical Marines were exploiting Combat-Squadding mass ObSec Tacticals out of ObSec Drop pods -- in other words, the same use that Jetbikes were used for up until this point.

The big difference is now these MEQ can all have equivalent firepower per point as heavy support choices. They completely obviate Double SL War Walkers, which were previously considered one of the pinnacles of fragile firepower.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Tournament nerfs really amuse me. And have stopped me from attending tournaments sometimes.

The 'I don't like that rule, so you can't have it' attitude is really disappointing. We all have the same choices in this game. To nerf specific rules is a bit of a joke. GW wrote the rules that way for a reason. I'm not saying that they make perfect game systems, or that they don't make sometimes painful mistakes. But the rules are the rules.

We will see what the tournament scene does. But most people bring enough tools to deal with MEQ. And that's all a jetbike is.

Gw also wrote the rules for unbound and yet everyobe uses detschments and formstions.
The tournament scene doesn't need to do anything. Ranged d is already banned in all ITC.
Super heavy low and gargantuan low are already considered rude to bring unannounced or outright banned in most friendly clubs. Ranged d versions are banned in Tournaments. The new wraithknight if true would be no different then the pariah that the elder revenent Titan is now.
Elder jetbikes will be an issue but even with nerfed scatter lasers it's going to be a powerful but hard to beat list.

It is more than just the Wraithknight. ITC will effectively ban Wraithguard and D Cannon batteries. I will be interested to see if they readdress this.

Jetbike spam hard counter is Living Metal. Everyone not in an AV13 front/side armor is screwed.

The only way I'd see the jetbike being balanced at 27 points is if eldar jet bikes didn't have relentless.

Point for point, does anything in the game land 8 S6 hits for 81 points? I cannot find anything near that firepower, let alone range and mobility.

Can you imagine running them with shadow seers as a gun line? 36" wall of death, and you've got to be within 2d6x2" to fire back at all.

I've already got a dark eldar/harliquin army in the works, and wanted to add some new eldar to it as well; but this unit is so terribly mis-costed.

Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Jetbike spam hard counter is Living Metal. Everyone not in an AV13 front/side armor is screwed.

The only way I'd see the jetbike being balanced at 27 points is if eldar jet bikes didn't have relentless.

Point for point, does anything in the game land 8 S6 hits for 81 points? I cannot find anything near that firepower, let alone range and mobility.

Can you imagine running them with shadow seers as a gun line? 36" wall of death, and you've got to be within 2d6x2" to fire back at all.

I've already got a dark eldar/harliquin army in the works, and wanted to add some new eldar to it as well; but this unit is so terribly mis-costed.

Yeah but as someone pointed out to me, they can take the Assault Shuriken Cannon instead of Scatter Laser.
I'l stick to playing DE. At least their bikes are fair.


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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

Then those people should maybe go and find another game to play.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

Then take the CC version. If you want to play with the Ranged D weapon, by all means clear it with your opponent since this is a two player game.

Not everyone wants to face Invisibility, re-rollable 2++ or D weapons, or GC/SHV. I personally feel GC and SHV belong in Escalation and Apoc only.

Then those people should maybe go and find another game to play.

Lol you want people to play your 40k not the 40k that has been played the last 2 years.
The only difference with the new reported wraithknight and the old elder low revenent Titan is the knight is substantially cheaper and only fired two ranged d weapons instead of 4. The reverent Titan has largely been banned this entire time. Sorry to burst your bubble but most people have no intention of playing superheavy low or gargantuan creatures with ranged d. Just like you likely don't play people bringing unbound.

I do play people who play unbound. I play people that bring anything that is legally allowed in the 7th edition rulebook and in any corresponding codex. I have absolutely no problem with facing unbound, GMC, or SH. I have access to the same optioned they do.

FYI, this doesn't make it my version of 40K. It makes it THE version of 40K. You know, the one in the official games workshop 7th edition rulebook..... So which one of us is the one wanting to play their own version?

Anyways, this argument is detracting from the point of this thread. I won't argue with people about how broken or not these changes are. These are probably the same players who spam riptides or the new necron 'I just won't ever die' detachment and think that they're all perfectly acceptable.

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications. If people decided to be 'that guy' and spam bikes, or opponents decide to cry when a wraithknight is brought... When they had no problem with them before, then that's up to them. Feel free to start a new thread called 'I'd like to whinge about eldar as they're probably now the top of the top tier'.

It's 2 shots, vs 4 large blasts.
It's 36" instead of 60".

D templates are rough as they can scatter into additional targets, spreading the love.

I'm totally cool with ranged D (no blast), as long as the cost goes up a bit.
You want to know why? Because 1/3rd of those 2 shots miss. The wraith knight is still going to be killing it's target in 1 or 2 turns of shooting (same as before).

As long as cost goes up a bit, I think you'll see an effective drop if fire-effect (you're paying more for killing at the same rate, which means less other stuff on the table).

Can anyone explain the hint of S: D weapons for Eldar? I saw a snapshot that mentioned them getting a lot of S: D and that worries me.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

It's not poor form at all. Something bad needs to happen to the Eldar army from time to time, and it's not coming from GW.


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 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I do play people who play unbound. I play people that bring anything that is legally allowed in the 7th edition rulebook and in any corresponding codex. I have absolutely no problem with facing unbound, GMC, or SH. I have access to the same optioned they do.

FYI, this doesn't make it my version of 40K. It makes it THE version of 40K. You know, the one in the official games workshop 7th edition rulebook..... So which one of us is the one wanting to play their own version?

Anyways, this argument is detracting from the point of this thread. I won't argue with people about how broken or not these changes are. These are probably the same players who spam riptides or the new necron 'I just won't ever die' detachment and think that they're all perfectly acceptable.

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications. If people decided to be 'that guy' and spam bikes, or opponents decide to cry when a wraithknight is brought... When they had no problem with them before, then that's up to them. Feel free to start a new thread called 'I'd like to whinge about eldar as they're probably now the top of the top tier'.

If it's legal, then it's "acceptable".

To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

I think we might end up in the opposite situation from Necrons, in that people will only play us if we don't use the CAD. I just hope that the detachment benefits are worth it.

And again, until the codex is in people's hands, everything up to and including the WD article is mere speculation and rumor.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

Assuming Crimson Hunters are still a thing in their current iteration, a flyrant drops in a turn to a pair of them guaranteed (and one really layers on the hurt). Spiders shooting up also output an impressive amount of damage from sheer RoF. If Bladestorm and Monofil remain with pseudo-eldar-rending, Necrons get stripped of one layer of saves and most other armies just don't get them from basic eldar infantry. Some fundamental rules need to be amended - if all eldar trade for superior bikes and Wraithknights (alongside rumored D weapon availability) is laser lock, an already monumentally good book just got better.

Judgement reserved until we know more.

Anyone else notice the new bikes are on the smaller based flight stands instead of the 60mm? This makes me happy. All bikes should be on oval bases though..

I'm sad the Autarch appears to only be swooping hawk winged, with power sword and fusion gun. Swooping Hawk winged Autarch is a detriment to hawks, since he can't sky leap with them (Hawks have the rule, he does not). Basically it is a kit that is not needed as hardly anyone is using him in that fashion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I think we might end up in the opposite situation from Necrons, in that people will only play us if we don't use the CAD. I just hope that the detachment benefits are worth it.

And again, until the codex is in people's hands, everything up to and including the WD article is mere speculation and rumor.

Agree - WD has gotten rules wrong before also. So nothing is exactly confirmed yet rules-wise.

Has it ever posted incorrect unit profiles before, though? It's one thing if they accidentally mix up rampage and rage in the battle report narrative or something silly like that, but I don't see it being likely that they somehow mess up a copy/paste of an entire unit profile straight from the new codex.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

27 points per 4 S6 shots. You could get 60 bikes in a 1800 list. Hey, look at that, my CAD is max troops! So balanced!
240 S6 shots.
Sure, snap fire. It's still killing 1-2 flyrants a turn.
Or to put it in perspective, it's killing ~90 orks a turn in cover.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

27 points per 4 S6 shots. You could get 60 bikes in a 1800 list. Hey, look at that, my CAD is max troops! So balanced!
240 S6 shots.
Sure, snap fire. It's still killing 1-2 flyrants a turn.
Or to put it in perspective, it's killing ~90 orks a turn in cover.

-Matt

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

The point of this thread is to discuss the new eldar book, the rumours and the tactical implications

They've been discussed on the first page in the second post.

oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

It just hurts extra hard right now because everyone was hoping that Eldar would be toned down to bring some much needed balance to the game alongside the trend of the other 7E books.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

It just hurts extra hard right now because everyone was hoping that Eldar would be toned down to bring some much needed balance to the game alongside the trend of the other 7E books.

Other 7E books like necrons?

The trend was quite balanced. Orks, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Skitarii, Harlequins, Dark Eldar. They were actually on their way to fixing some of the worst excesses in the game and creating a more balanced line up of armies. Necrons is an anomaly, yes, but the future was looking bright for a while there.

in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

I think the future is still quite bright. I can't see them being all that broken. I'm pretty sure the wraithknight will see a decent price hike so that will match their new profile and balance them out. And then the only issue will be bikes. They are powerful, sure, but they're not as durable as a lot of units that are as fast. T4, 3+ is still quite easily dealt with. They'll drop fast.


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 Jazzhands wrote:
in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

This. I absolutely ADORE this attitude. Hear hear good sir.

 Jazzhands wrote:
oh you guys! We have not seen all the rules yet and already its the end of the world.

I'll come back in 3 months when the codex has been played, other new rules are out and people have worked out great tactics to deal with new elder. We can all look back and laugh together.

And before anyone starts complaining that I'm probably and Eldar player I'm not. I play only DA, often voted the worst of codex choices, yet already I am thinking about hitting a WK with rad and stasis grenades befor my plasma talons soften it up for my Deathwing Knights to smite its worthless hide.

As this happens the vindicators will be making jetbike paste...

Again someone is extremely optimistic about their chances. A vindi won't drop it's own point cost in bikes before it dies. Your knights will never get in arms reach of his. (This is competitively speaking, if you just play casual where they might take a wraithknight and a ton of banshees, then go nuts, but casual lists are hardly relevant to balance issues.)

 Jazzhands wrote:
in a game system like this there will never be balance. If there were how would sales continiue?

We all sit and hope that the next set of rules will favour our faction (again, a DA player talking)and if you are a serious competitive player I can understand whyit is so important.

I play for fun. I like fluffy lists and live for the narrative. I know not everyone does.

Will it be hard to fight new Eldar? yes I'm sure it will. Will I roar with joy when I total a WK? oh you bet ya.

Having seen how good my ravenwing look deploying I can't wait to see a field of jetbikes and pissing my pants as I work out how to deal with them.

...playing for fun is fine, but when you play a game where deck is stacked against you, it has a a habit of pissing some people off. Why should our game be reduced to being the Alamo? On another note, I feel that GW deliberately released Skitarii before Eldar on the simple basis they saw the new Jetbike would cripple them.

I can't agree that balance can't be gauged by non-competitive play. Even the fluffiest of players doesn't want to lose all the time of feel there is no chance.

No my vindicators might not drop equal points... but they might drop enough that the bikes are no longer an issue and the rest of my force can do the damage without having to worry about them.

And yes, I'm sure there will be times when my knights don't get there. There are time they don't with current rules, but there are times when they smash up its heals while Belial runs up his front to bury his sword is its stupid dome of a face!

Tactic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also I'm a DA player, the deck is usually stacked against me.

But who doesn't love an underdog?

New Eldar will arrive. They will be tough and hard to beat.. but I will enjoy those victories all the more for it.

Warhammer fluff is about as entertaining as reading a teenaged girl's angst-ridden diary. I am in the hobby mostly to play, and I felt like things in 7th ed. were mostly headed in the right direction. I don't expect perfect balance (GW is a miniatures store first of course) but as long as things are in the right ballpark I am fine with it.

I am still cautiously hopeful but yeah, if things are grossly out of balance it is going to seriously impact everyone who plays, whether they play for fun or play to win.

I love a good teenage angst filled diary (non-gender specific though)

 Jazzhands wrote:
Tactic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!

You... do realize math accurately defines dice averages, right? Like, that's not opinion. That's fact.

Almost everyone who complains about failing 5 of 6 3+ armor saves forgets the 8 saves in a row they just made from the previous shooting attack.

"actic matter (especially in competitive arena) but so do the whims of the dice gods! and when they are not teasing me with near misses we all know they waste their days laughing at the mathshammer crew!"

Mathhammer never fails in the long run.

These Jetbikes are only Ldship 8 with no way other then a Farseer/ Autarch to improve it, am i correct?

If so, my Dark Harlie might stand a chance. Using the Scalpel Squadron and the Heroes Path (Should be easy to hide 3 models) to beta strike i will be able to drop in turn 2 with a Dark Artisan w/ Armour of Misery (T7 3+/4+++ will survive a whole lot of Scatter Laser fire), get the Mask Shadowseer into position and let lose with all the phantasm grenade launchers and Archangles of Pain i finally have a reason to field. Between Grisly Spectical, Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery, Archangle of Pain, The Phantasm Grenade Launchers, the Death Jesters and the Psychic Shrieks i should be able to put a considerable dent in whatever i feel i need dead or running.

Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

yes I do understand the maths of probability but I feel it was the late great Pratchett who pointed out that one in a million chances turn up 9 times out of ten.

If I roll three 2+ saving throws then probability predicts it is unlikely that I fail them all... yet I do. Often.

Obviously the more we roll the more the predictions hold true but one of the amazing things about the universe we live in (and thus the games we play) is nothing is written in stone. Anything could happen.

Embrace the scientific outlook. The evidence I have supports this theory but when new evidence is given I will consider it and adjust my views accordingly.

Evidence suggests and supports the idea that there are not invisible dice pixies who control my roles. However, if I was shown reasonable evidence, gathered in controlled experimental conditions that such creatures exsisted I would be willing to consider it. I would probably be removing another squad of Deathwing as I did.

Evidence suggests that new Eldar will be next to unstoppable on the battle field. I am waiting for further evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh look. Alex has chosen to spend his time planning not bitching.

And already it looks like things can be done.

Good work my man.

One in a million chances turn up one out of one million times. Probability dictates the odds of rolling a 1 on a d6 are 1/6. These are mathematical truths, that are as close to written in stone as you can get without etching them yourself. That is the scientific outlook.

What you have is called anecdotal evidence. Personal experience does not dictate the accepted norm - it supplements it.

It's probably more accurate to say that we remember the 1 in 1 million happenings 9 times out of 10. the other 999,999 happenings still happen.

Probably doesn't help that it's Eldar getting more buffs, being OP in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and now 7th.

It's quite obvious that this is the army that is favored by someone (Kelly) to the point of wanting constant buffs.

Still funny how people complain without having read the book yet. Of course there'll be buffs and nerfs somewhere, pushing WK into LoW-Slot forces Eldar to use their own detachment, or to field just one. Weren't people complaining that they were spammed to much?..and what now, they get a bit more resilience against snipers and poison along with FNP, yay~...

This game is constantly changing, I've not seen an army that was impossible to beat.

But some people claim certain units to be useless...if you can't use it, then you're incapable of playing it right, easy and hard as that.

If the meta is not for your list, change, adapt, learn new ways to kill the other army...as long and as frustrating as that might be, that's actually a great deal of fun to me.

Or do you all go to the table and expect to win without doing anything for it? Sure sounds like that with many posts here.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
To the topic title. The confirmed changes will effect our play style by having no one to play against if there's anything on a bike or made of wraithbone in our army list.

Love that GW has no idea what they do to their own game. There's no way they have a single clue.

Do people really think these changes make them that OP? We still have heard nothing about reliable AA. Flyrant spam can still upset us. Crons don't care how many shots you have, they have an equal number of saves. There's still a lot of counters.

No, the mass of str6 is enough to down just about anything.

A 270 point squad that puts out 40 str6 shots. They will still get over 6 hits and 3 wounds, 1 gets past saves and causes a grounding check. Not bad for 1 turn of firing.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

That's what's so annoying about all of this. GW had a chance to do the right thing and now they choke, twice.

The solution is simple: Eldar and Necrons are one game called "40k+", the rest of us just play "40k". It's two different games.

 Vaeleria wrote:
Still funny how people complain without having read the book yet. Of course there'll be buffs and nerfs somewhere, pushing WK into LoW-Slot forces Eldar to use their own detachment, or to field just one. Weren't people complaining that they were spammed to much?..and what now, they get a bit more resilience against snipers and poison along with FNP, yay~...

This game is constantly changing, I've not seen an army that was impossible to beat.

But some people claim certain units to be useless...if you can't use it, then you're incapable of playing it right, easy and hard as that.

If the meta is not for your list, change, adapt, learn new ways to kill the other army...as long and as frustrating as that might be, that's actually a great deal of fun to me.

Or do you all go to the table and expect to win without doing anything for it? Sure sounds like that with many posts here.

Spot on.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

The Jetbike reaction is just like the Wraith reaction and any other underpriced unit before that.

"I'll take 100000000000000x Jetbikes/Wraiths/Whatever and I'll win every game!"

Then it just doesn't work that way. This doesn't change the fact that the Jetbikes are awesome, but that you still need a flexible army. The fact they're troops really does help them and makes them even better, but at this point I'm thinking that investing more than let's say 700 points out of 1850 total is already excessive and beginning to be counter-productive.

If the D weapons end up being underpriced too there's a sweet combo of mass S6 and S D to be made. I wouldn't forget the option of taking allies either. How about Eldar Jetbikes and a Wraithknight with 3 Flyrants and 3 Mucolids as Come the Apocalypse allies?

Firstly I am amazed how many people missed the humour of the Pratchett quote
Secondly if the mathshammer truly was the king of everything it would be pointless playing the game. The point I was trying to make is that probability can predict trends but trends don't win games.

Also I find it astounding that so many people can use the term chance without fully comprehending it. If we just work with the maths of rolling dice without considering other facts (and I'm not talking tactic here) Unless we start exploring the complexities of chaos theory do we even come close and, due to its very nature, we can never full make predictions that come to pass 100% of the time.

Do we predict the times a die ends up balanced on an edge?
Does the theory support the idea I will win a game on the last 6 rolls of a game (three 6s followed by 3 1s)

Yes, I accept that probability theory support trends in results that increase in accuracy the more rolling we do but that is not the nature of the game. Each game has a finite number of rolls and one games rolls do not effect anothers.

If you truly think that maths dictates you can't win then why play at all? As for refusing to play a list as the maths goes against you, well that's your right. I hope you don't come to my club. Much more important to me is the attitude of the player. Have they come to play? Are they polite? Do they have a sense of humour?

Each to their own of course and I would defend your right to your opinion but I play this game for enjoyment and I get that regardless of the list that comes to the table.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

Mirror of minds is a fancy Mind War, when cast both players roll a dice and add their respective leadership. If the Harlequin rolls higher or equal, the enemy models loses a wound and the test goes again. This will happen again and again until either the opponent manages to get a higher result then the Shadowseer or the model dies. With various Ld debuffs it is possible to make it impossible for the opponent to get a higher result, so they would take infinite amount of wounds until the model is removed.

Would that work on a Gargantuan Creature? With easy access to Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery and Grotesque Spectacle i can put anything at -5, this seems like maybe the only way for Dark Eldar to kill off a Wraithknight.

Gargantuans are immune to psychic powers, friendly or enemy. Gotta find another way mate.

 Quickjager wrote:
Gargantuans are immune to psychic powers, friendly or enemy. Gotta find another way mate.

Where does it state that?

Last I recall about four or five lines above them concerning instant death? Don't got the BRB with me currently.

Just read through it again there is nothing I can see that states those rules.

Are you sure? I remember the wording specifically going psychic powers unless they have a Str value cannot hurt Gargantuan Creatures, and then if they have the instant death special rule roll a D3 anyway.

 Quickjager wrote:
Are you sure? I remember the wording specifically going psychic powers unless they have a Str value cannot hurt Gargantuan Creatures, and then if they have the instant death special rule roll a D3 anyway.

Hasn't been the case for years. That got removed with the most recent Apoc book.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why should the wraithknight, a model that people have spent a lot of money on and put a lot of effort in to until now, suddenly require being shelved because people don't like ranged D? In this country they're £70 each. I don't know what that equates to in dollars. I have 2. Why should I not be able to field £140 of models because GW have changed their weapon profile? To fit THEIR game. It's poor form really.

People need to get used to the fact that super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures are here to stay. This fear of what has arisen in 7th is getting boring. Some ate far too stuck in their ways.

And I want to have a chance at winning. Heck that's not even true, I'd like to be able to enjoy a game in which my models are more than NPC cannon-fodded for your FPS hero characters.

I'd also like to be able to play a regular game of 40k, not apocalypse. GW is introducing all of the options from Apocalypse into regular 40k, and thusly I (and others) have the right to ignore / ban those things and try to play some semi-balanced games. The games in which 100 orks is actually a decent amount of models, not cannon fodder to be removed in one turn.

Well unfortunately that seems to be the way GW is going. Super heavies and gargantuan creatures are a big part of 40K now. And you can bet your bottom dollar they're not going to go back on their decision any time soon so you better get used to it?

Someone will find a way to out do the Jetbike Scatterlaser thing.

And I thought I read the Sisters of Battle have some kind of ammunition that affects psykers (maybe any target). I thought my Eldar codex said all Eldar are psykers. A witch or a witch on a broomstick? The bolts don't care.

3 Y'Vahras. Problem solved.

Going back to something that's actually relevant to the original topic:

We can pretty much assume that the Wraithknight is a gargantuan creature. What does this mean as far as tactics on the tabletop?

1. Greatly increased durability. No longer need it fear our dark kin or snipers. FNP is also big, as is being immune to instant death. Assuming it keeps its statline, it will be very hard to wound, but not impossible to kill.

2. Massive fire magnet. Even more so than an imperial knight. Stomp attacks, strikedown, and 12 inch movement mean this thing will be impossible to ignore.

I argue that the new Wraithknight should be used as a gigantic distraction unit, taking the fire that will murder our other, considerably more fragile units. "Distraction Carnifex", meet the "Distraction Wraithknight".

As far as weapons go, we have three options:

Heavy Wraithcannons: Now with S: D! Good luck gettin people to play against these. Could also be the most expensive option. At least it's only single shots, so not quite as hilarious as Pulsars.
Suncannon/Shield: The more reasonable shooty option. Has lost the ability to twin-link, but scatter lasers are probably still the best secondary option. Also gives a 5++, which is not insignificant with FNP.
Ghostglaive/Shield: S: D in CC form. From the battle reports in the WD, it seems to hit at Initiative 5, which combined with 4 base attacks will let it safely take on imperial knights up close.

The Bad: I imagine a sudden renaissance of "No ranged Destroyer" in the future, which invalidates our previous most popular loadout. Going with the weapon options and its new role, sword and board with SL will probably be the new hotness.

Could also get a massive price increase, along with being a Lord of War. If you want to do the Warhost Iyanden style, you need Wraithguard and a Wraithlord, and those aren't cheap, especially with transports.

Overall, the Wraithknight will still be an impressive model, both on the tabletop and display. GC means its better off charging the enemy to distract from out objective holders.

Somebody mathhammer out how hard it will be to kill a Wraithknight with all the options.

Back on topic. Thank you.

I'm not sure it will be a Lord of war. There's been no indication as of yet. Though going off of other GMC's it could perhaps be 'assumed'. However, in the white dwarf leak there is a close up of the eldar detachment. One of the auxiliary choices is a single wraithknight. So it seems it'll still be possible to take multiple.

As for the D strength range weapon. I'm not sure they will be permanent strength D. Personally I'm expecting strength D to interact with distort some how and for the distort rules to change. I'm imagining something along the lines of a 6 to hit is counted as strength D, or something along those lines.

Personally, I was quite lucky to play in a meta where poison wasn't common place. Nor was a idea fire. So I only ever used them as giant distractions. They used to soak a fair amount of fire power as it was. Now I believe their resilience finally befits the size and background of the model. I'm very excited by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the video that shows the detachment options....

https://youtu.be/VhSOv3MjHE0

It is confirmed from the WD that he can have Str D shooting, or CC.

It is also confirmed that with the new "formation" you can take plenty of them, lord of war or not.

I honestly feel for my eldar friends - two of them had to shelve their armies - as no one wanted to play them, or they were just too easy and no fun, or they had to self nerf so much.

Sadly, in the closet they stay... GW please get a clue.

WK point cost is going up I hope tho?

There have been a few key takeaways from what we know.

-I'd never run 1000 points in Jetbikes. I already own 20 and I don't think I'll bother taking that many. The biggest issue with the Jetbikes is their LD8. Kill 3 Jetbikes in a 10 strong squad and you have to make a morale test. You can beef them up with an Autarch or Farseer, but that's more points your sinking into just one bike unit. There is just way too much in this game that can wipe Jetbikes off the table.

-Squads 3-6 strong may be a sweet spot, especially if running a CAD. 81 points for 12 STR6 shots and having a small footprint is pretty good. 24 STR6 shots at 162 is a good value.

-Bikes with Shuriken Cannons. This isn't getting much attention, but Bladestorm still exists and having AP2/auto wound on a 'to wound' roll of 6 can be clutch. I can definitely see taking a couple smallish squads of these.

-D Strength Weapons. I've already got Wraithguard, so I'll wait and see how this pans out. To be honest, if folks run Adamantium Lance formations, it looks like this codex may actually be a game changer.

-Wraithknight. Folks are really focusing on this, but I'm not so sure how the points value will work out for them. The points value will be very important. Also, I can't see how the Suncannon/Shield combo will remain more expensive than the dual Heavy Wraithcannon, especially being a STR D weapon.

-Vypers. If I run an Eldar detachment (I really need to see what bonuses I'd get for this), Vypers are all over the place. I really hope they do something rules-wise to make them worthwhile. I've not used mine since 5th edition, and they were not very good even back then. Give them something like Skyfire and I'll be happy. Otherwise, I really don't see me taking then, especially when I can take Hornets (assuming I play a CAD and not an Eldar Formation).

-Wave Serpents. With just what we know and suspect, they lost the Laserlock rule and likely Holofields will be a 5+ Inv save. Those two things alone are extremely significant. If they also change the Serpent Shield, I hope they drastically reduce the points for it. GW would still want to sell the kit (I would surmise) so I think they need to make it a reasonably worthwhile choice. Give it an assault ramp option and tons of folks would be extremely happy as they may actually want to run Scorpions/Banshees.

-Aspect Warriors. I'm a bit leary with them. There is a part of me that thinks they won't get a whole lot of great new rules because they did not release plastic kits for them. Why hype a unit when they are pretty much only available in Finecast. We'll see.

-From what I can see, the cool rules are in the form of what plastic kits they have produced of late. Jetbikes, Wraithguard, Wraithknight, Hemlock Fighter (I believe this has a Distort weapon which may become a destroyer weapon) and the Vaul's Wrath Batteries. Hopefully, I'll have a reason to field Wraithlords, Vypers and Falcons, the other Eldar plastic kits.

I hope the same. Hated the fact that wraithknights made wraithlords obsolete. Perhaps a touch of a price hike to the knight will help the Lords selection issues. I'd also love to see things like vypers becoming useful again. I'm remaining optimistic for a chance to see much more varied lists.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

So I thought with the SW and BA codices GW were trying to do some balance, and then Crons and Eldar gakked the bed.

That's what's so annoying about all of this. GW had a chance to do the right thing and now they choke, twice.

The solution is simple: Eldar and Necrons are one game called "40k+", the rest of us just play "40k". It's two different games.

This. I say we move all the marines into 30k, invite the orks, bugs, SOME of the daemons, and dark eldar because they're fun to hang with, and ignore those tryhard races. (Khorne and Slaany are hilarious, Tzeentch is a nerd and Nurgle stinks, so leave them out!)

They could make their Necron/Eldar fights into a specialist game of the ancient wars...so like "-65000k" or whatever the time was.

Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Meh my line up wont change much. My lone Wraithknight with its suncannon will not change its gear and now will be a bit more durable. Probably wont change my two Wraithlords with their BL, sword, and scat lasers either. My Wraithseer if the D weapon thing comes true just got that much better, albeit it still pays out the nose for that distort cannon.
Wraithguard with D-weapon scyths? yes please. I field two squads of Warp Spiders as well, hopefully they don't see a nerf or maybe go back to template weapons like they used to have. The only thing I might change is my lone aircraft, maybe it might be worthwhile to change it to a more fluffy Hemlock Wraith Fighter to match the rest of the list. Right now I would be gimping myself to do that as the regular fighter with an exarch pilot is such a good AA unit.

ShadowcatX wrote:
Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Why would we care what anyone on the internet thinks? wth is with your account?

My list will change because I like to use the army specific detachments. I certainly won't go spamming units like jetbikes with the new options. I can see why people could potentially be concerned about it though. I have come across a few 'win at all costs' players.

Codex: Eldar Craftworlds. Tactics

Tactics? lol

I didn't realise quite how jealous the 40K world is of Eldar...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I didn't realise quite how jealous the 40K world is of Eldar...

Entirely justified jealousy.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Going back to something that's actually relevant to the original topic:

We can pretty much assume that the Wraithknight is a gargantuan creature. What does this mean as far as tactics on the tabletop?

1. Greatly increased durability. No longer need it fear our dark kin or snipers. FNP is also big, as is being immune to instant death. Assuming it keeps its statline, it will be very hard to wound, but not impossible to kill.

2. Massive fire magnet. Even more so than an imperial knight. Stomp attacks, strikedown, and 12 inch movement mean this thing will be impossible to ignore.

I argue that the new Wraithknight should be used as a gigantic distraction unit, taking the fire that will murder our other, considerably more fragile units. "Distraction Carnifex", meet the "Distraction Wraithknight".

As far as weapons go, we have three options:

Heavy Wraithcannons: Now with S: D! Good luck gettin people to play against these. Could also be the most expensive option. At least it's only single shots, so not quite as hilarious as Pulsars.
Suncannon/Shield: The more reasonable shooty option. Has lost the ability to twin-link, but scatter lasers are probably still the best secondary option. Also gives a 5++, which is not insignificant with FNP.
Ghostglaive/Shield: S: D in CC form. From the battle reports in the WD, it seems to hit at Initiative 5, which combined with 4 base attacks will let it safely take on imperial knights up close.

The Bad: I imagine a sudden renaissance of "No ranged Destroyer" in the future, which invalidates our previous most popular loadout. Going with the weapon options and its new role, sword and board with SL will probably be the new hotness.

Could also get a massive price increase, along with being a Lord of War. If you want to do the Warhost Iyanden style, you need Wraithguard and a Wraithlord, and those aren't cheap, especially with transports.

Overall, the Wraithknight will still be an impressive model, both on the tabletop and display. GC means its better off charging the enemy to distract from out objective holders.

Somebody mathhammer out how hard it will be to kill a Wraithknight with all the options.

Math calculation to show how hard to take down this thing. Let's use Necron Warriors Gauss Flayer and Centurion Grav cannon. They are the only basic infantry gun that can hurt very big guys (and this is same for the poison weapon against "tomorrow" Wraith Knight) and the latter represent gold standard of "very good" heavy fire power especially when supported by Tigirius.

Let's look at the gauss flayer first. Warriors hit on 3s and the gun wound wraith knight on 6s, so every 18 shots cause one wound. While the WK can take the 3+ armor, and followed by a 5+ FNP. Which means only 2 out of 9 wounds are unsaved. Thus, the Necrons should fire more than 81 Gauss flayer shots to take out a single wound on the WK, i.e. one 11 men squad and one 20 men squad standing at 12 inch PLUS two Ghost Ark supporting them, just to put ONE WOUND on that monster. Which can be gain back by 5+ IWND

For the Grav Centurion, they have much better chance because there is no saying GC immune to grav rule, so they wound on 3s rerolling and no armor save. If buffed by Ignore cover and reroll to hit from Divination power from Tigirius or GK Libby, no cover save as well as 3s to hit rerolling, only FNP or inv save from the shield could mitigate. So at the best scenario, to inflict one wound, only need 1.898 shots to reliably do so. If the WK has the shield, then 2.848 shots. I.e. to KILL a WK with / without the shield in one salvo, you need 11.39 shots and 17.09 shots respectively. It is within the capability of a "larger than minimun" squad of Centurions when joined by Tiggy. But you need to get all the support psychic powers to go off, which is hard unless you can ally with GK for warp dices, since you can expect the Eldar gets 1 to 2 farseer and 3+ warlocks so they out mastery level you by 3 to 1 thus can throw more dices easily to deny the most vital psychic power.

Simply say, in terms of mathmatical calculation, maybe Marine have a combination to counter WK. That is Draigo-Tiggy-Grav Cent Star. As for the SL jetbike spam, The only solution I can come up is also this Draigo Tiggy Cent Star. Which a min number of Cents in a squad can mathmatically wipe out one full squad of Tactical Marine. So with Ignore Cover psychic power buff, they should have no problem to delete a full squad of jetbike. While GoI is the only way one can hope a ground unit to catch those jetbikes. But this combination is way tooooo specific. And the eldar can gather all their dice to deny two most important power -- the GoI and Perfect Timing. While the further buffed to broken eldar defintely have the volume and quality of fire needed to wipe this special star out in one turn if they turely take 60 SL Jetbike and 3 WK.

Boost them with DA librarius conclave. Easy to match warp charges and cast on 3+.

Ironically the best anti-wraithknight army will likely be eldar who have multiple D weapon platforms and thus actually make big scariest like the WK a liability.

Link: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/eldar-formation-secrets.html (Larry Vela, so apply heavy sodium)

One big thing we have coming in the next codex is the Warhost detachment. I can already see how this will significantly affect how Eldar are played. The only problem is we don't yet know any sort of detachment benefits from the Warhost.

At first glance, the Warhost is much more restrictive than the Decurion: there are very few "0-1/0-3" options; everything is pretty much locked in place as far as number of units.

For detachment benefits, it would be very interesting if the Warhost keeps ObSec and the WT re-roll.

The big advantage to the Warhost is the amount of flexibility in the auxiliary units you can bring. 1-12 choices is even better than the Decurion, no matter how restrictive the formations may be.

The core Guardian units are very much like the Reclamation Legion, in that you could make an entire army out of it. We have several basic options with the mandatory units:

Jetbikes: Talked to death in other threads. Spam only if you want to lose friends and never get games.
Storm Guardians: Nope. Not even Ulthwe players use these.
Guardian Defenders: Solid and cheap troops. Camp objectives and use weapons platform to provide support.
Farseer and Warlocks: Solid as ever. Eldar are a psychic army and it's good that we get these in the core.
War Walkers: Underrated HS choice. The loss of laser lock diminishes SL+BL effectiveness, but it's still probably the best option.
Vaul's Wrath: Rarely used, but can be effective. D-Cannon could fall under Destroyer rules, so Vibro Cannon or the Shadow Weaver are the friendlier options, Shadow Weaver being better.
Vypers: Overshadowed by War Walkers. Load up with BL and cannon and use their speed and low profile to hunt side armor.

The auxiliary formations also look good. 12 Wraithknights probably isn't possible in 2000 points or under. Assuming they cost the same, Rangers could be very effective as cheap infiltrators. Engines of Vaul looks good too, with the ability to take grav-tanks in a squadron. Hopefully split fire is a thing. The Aspect Host also looks good, as it lets us be flexible and fluffy with our elite units. Iyanden will love the Wraith Host. Regents will let us field all the special characters we want.

Overall, the Warhost detachment will be a balancing act between spending enough in the Guardian Host to make it viable and leaving enough points open for the auxiliary units to support the core

Do you really think the wraithknights points will remain? I any see it. They surely must be going to 300+

What are the points on most other GMCs? I remember the Tranny C'Tan was 600+ and the Daemon Lords are 666+ depending on which one, I dunno what most other races have.

The daemon costs are a poor comparison as they tried to be clever in using the gods number. But their cost did not match their ability.

Why are GMC's around the 600 point plus mark, and yet the imperial knight is 370. I'd expect around the imperial knight price as they're still going to want to sell them.

With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

DCannon4Life wrote:
With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

I'd doubt they'll keep that. But there's no evidence to that assumption. Just think that would be a touch ridiculous.

Hmmm, how about 15 Lootas in a BW with 4 Big Shootas for a total of 355 points? 15-45 Str 7 ap4 48" range and 12 Str 5 ap5 36" range. X3 is 1065. AV 14 front castled in a corner with a 5++ inv save and Meks to repair HP for a little more. Easy with Unbound, a little more pricey with CAD.

Or if you really want to get crazy Mek Gunz MSU.

In an 1850 list you can get over 100 T7 4 wound units that fire a Str 8 ap 3 at 36" in 4+ cover or a Str 5 ap 5 small blast 48" out of sight! If each Eldar bike squad manages to kill one unit per turn that's only 30-42 MSU's gone by games end.

Or a Stompa with 180 fearless Grots in the way.

Like every other codex release ever; Orks save the day!

Prove me wrong (hint: Orks never lose!)

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Could someone explain the interaction between Psychic Shriek (Or the Harlequin Mirror of Minds) and Gargantuan Creatures? For example it is possible for me to force a -5 Ld on the Wraithknight, then if i got off Mirror of Minds he has to roll a D6 + Ld to beat my Shadowseer. He cannot win this, so would he just die? Would it be similar if Psy Shriek caused him to take a butt load of wounds?

I don't know how Mirror of Minds works, but Gargs are immune to weapons and powers that would cause the creature to be instantly removed as a casualty. They inflict 1D3 wounds instead.

BRB, p. 71, for reference.

Mirror of minds is a fancy Mind War, when cast both players roll a dice and add their respective leadership. If the Harlequin rolls higher or equal, the enemy models loses a wound and the test goes again. This will happen again and again until either the opponent manages to get a higher result then the Shadowseer or the model dies. With various Ld debuffs it is possible to make it impossible for the opponent to get a higher result, so they would take infinite amount of wounds until the model is removed.

Would that work on a Gargantuan Creature? With easy access to Mask of Secrets, Armour of Misery and Grotesque Spectacle i can put anything at -5, this seems like maybe the only way for Dark Eldar to kill off a Wraithknight.

I'm a bit late to the party, but I've been doing some research on this issue and though I just had to reply - Mirror of Minds and Psychic Scream would work on a Gargantuan Creature. It's normal wounds they are inflicting after all, not magical "instant-death-remove-from-play" wounds.

What wouldn't work, then? My preferred orky trick against MCs, for example. The Tellyport Blasta, a weapon that causes ID on a 6 to wound. Or Vortex weapons. Or the Portal of Exile on the Necron Monolith. These weapons would be doing 1D3 wounds on the Garg instead.

So yep, casting MoM on a gargantuan (let's cut the euphemisms already: on the Wraithknight ) is actually a sound tactic.

Well thought out, mate!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
With regard to Wraith Knights...will they retain their 'Jump' status? Will Deep Strike be available to them? If yes, then hilarity ensues.

I'd doubt they'll keep that. But there's no evidence to that assumption. Just think that would be a touch ridiculous.

I would agree with you as well in that the gargantuan creatures have their own unit type unless it is a special rule they get

 Quickjager wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:
Anyone else amused that the guy whose signature proclaims he plays 40k in hard mode is asking for a 40k easy mode?

Why would we care what anyone on the internet thinks? wth is with your account?

I just found it amusing. As to my account, I made it when I first started exploring the online world of 40k but left 40k and only came back to it occasionally and not here, hence the age and post count.

So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd like it to be costed close to current Tyranid LoW (Barbed and Scythed Hierodule).

It's current MC profile is extremely similar to the Hierodules

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

WKs already give Knights a run for their money, but the impressive boost to survivability and offensive output puts them cleanly over. The only reason I suspect they will cost less is some inherent weaknesses of the GC category and the choice they have to make between shooting and CC. To the effect of the former - Skitarii rad weaponry, fleshbane, certain psychic shenanigans (psychic shriek / mind war) and grav weaponry still make them cry, while being wholly ineffective against an IK.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, what do people think a points cost will be for the wraithknight?

Also, considering the bikes ability to take shuriken cannons and scatter lasers, surely there must be rules changes for vypers and war walkers to make them worth taking?

I'd call it at a hair under an IK - if only because it has to choose between decent shooting or D strength in CC. Then again, I can't make a call on solid slug ranged strength D. I'll say somewhere in the ballpark of 320-330.

This would make me very very happy. I don't mind a price increase if it's anything up to a 100 points more. To be honest, over that I think is fair. But too much more than the imperial knight and I'll feel slightly insulted.

That would be undercosting the WK. A WK can already deal with a Knight quite well due to S10 shooting, S10 attacks and more importantly, I5.
Giving it Destroyer Weapons would make mince meat of IK very quickly.

That's my point exactly! There are still quite a few hard counters to a GMC. A friend of mine runs grav cents with tiggy. They will make a wraithknight cry.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
That's my point exactly! There are still quite a few hard counters to a GMC. A friend of mine runs grav cents with tiggy. They will make a wraithknight cry.

There are some counters for sure, but not everyone has them.

No granted. I'll give you that. But not everyone has counters to Adamantine lance formation. Its no different really. There is quite a few units or death stars out there that not everyone has counters to. And yet for some reason, because eldar have been top tier for a while, we get the most amount of abuse. A wraithknight is probably roughly on par with an imperial knight. So the points should represent that fact.

People rightly complain about the ad lance too. And necrons. I don't think its a personal thing against the eldar lol.

Its just eldar are now the most recent and glaring example of imbalance.

Depending on points costs and weapon rules, the new knight sounds like it will beat an IK every day of the week.

Ranged D weapons are a huge advantage. D attacks in cc at I5 will potentially beat down a knight before it swings.

I'm hoping the WK is around the 450 mark.

Eldar simply have the widest sweep of imbalances (or did, until crons turned up). That's why they get most of the abuse. You're hard pressed to find a unit in the book that isn't at least passable. By and large, most codices are reduced to 1-2 builds because the alternatives are simply bad. Eldar builds are reduced because other units are comparatively worse internally rather than externally - if that makes sense.

OK, I'll give you that mostly, but the book isn't without its bad units.

Banshee's I won't even start on.
Fire prisms aren't that great as they take a heavy slot.
Falcons are worse than the above mentioned.
Vypers don't get used. They're like war walkers but weaker.
Hemlocks I never see.
There's a few others in there too, but you get my point.

All I'm saying is, other books should be more like the eldar book, and not the other way round. If eldar have so much competition for slots because units are all comparatively good, then that's a good thing. And should lend itself to more varied armies. It's certainly more interesting from a gaming perspective then knowing which units will be selected from the army you're facing simply because they're the only units in the codex that are any good.

I like what you said obsidian. My friend, an eldar player, frequently likes to use under played aspect warriors to break up the monotony and they still perform well.

I swear this happens every new codex though. Everyone goes crazy. Watch they do something silly like they did with harlequins where you aren't allowed a normal cad and have to use formations or some crazy force org that requires like 3 fast attack or something.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
People rightly complain about the ad lance too. And necrons. I don't think its a personal thing against the eldar lol.

Its just eldar are now the most recent and glaring example of imbalance.

Depending on points costs and weapon rules, the new knight sounds like it will beat an IK every day of the week.

Ranged D weapons are a huge advantage. D attacks in cc at I5 will potentially beat down a knight before it swings.

I'm hoping the WK is around the 450 mark.

I see what you're saying. I still think it's less durable than the knight. I'm going 350 mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I like what you said obsidian. My friend, an eldar player, frequently likes to use under played aspect warriors to break up the monotony and they still perform well.

I swear this happens every new codex though. Everyone goes crazy. Watch they do something silly like they did with harlequins where you aren't allowed a normal cad and have to use formations or some crazy force org that requires like 3 fast attack or something.

Why aren't harlequins allowed to take a CAD?

Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

** Yes, looking at the codex, to remain battle forged, they gotta take the detachment that requires 3 troops, 2 fast, and a haeavy

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

Yes it is, but they can choose to take a CAD instead if they so wish. The CAD and allied detachments from the BRB are avaliable to every force.

The eldar have their own detachment. There is a YouTube link in this thread somewhere that shows the leaked white dwarf. The eldar detachment requires one core selection. There are 3 selections to choose from. Each includes a farseer. Each includes a vyper squadron, 2 require a war Walker squadron and either 3 squads of storm guardians or normal guardians. The other requires warlocks, and 3 squads of wind rider jetbikes. I actually love these new detachments. They're encouraging people to take units that aren't normally selected in order to gain even more bonuses for their force. It's the same with necrons and Daemonkin.

I saw the video, and I see how it's written in the codex. I mistook it for you had to organize like below.

Interestingly, wouldn't bike armies be very fragile fighting each other. With that many str 6 shots. they would table all the other bikes turn 1. The army would boil down to who goes first in a mirror match.

Yeah possibly. Bike armies would be a hard counter to bike armies to some extent. In that situation I'd imagine first turn would be quite huge. Perhaps not an auto win if you get it though.

There's too many other factors. I personally think that if someone was to spam jetbikes, they wouldn't actually have that effective a force.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK, I'll give you that mostly, but the book isn't without its bad units.

Banshee's I won't even start on.
Fire prisms aren't that great as they take a heavy slot.
Falcons are worse than the above mentioned.
Vypers don't get used. They're like war walkers but weaker.
Hemlocks I never see.
There's a few others in there too, but you get my point.

All I'm saying is, other books should be more like the eldar book, and not the other way round. If eldar have so much competition for slots because units are all comparatively good, then that's a good thing. And should lend itself to more varied armies. It's certainly more interesting from a gaming perspective then knowing which units will be selected from the army you're facing simply because they're the only units in the codex that are any good.

I agree. However, despite the fact that other codices should in theory house the range of competitive choices that the Eldar dex does, they (in practice) do not. Hence: Eldar hate.

Also, I know ranged D sounds scary, but as a single shot it doesn't sound so bad. I mean, cover and invul saves are a thing right. Unless they roll the magic 6, it may not even kill a rhino with smoke. Assaulting sounds difficult for me as a guard player, but I have had wraiths tie up my IK for like 5 turns before. If you ain't rolling 6's it's really rough.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Also, I know ranged D sounds scary, but as a single shot it doesn't sound so bad. I mean, cover and invul saves are a thing right. Unless they roll the magic 6, it may not even kill a rhino with smoke. Assaulting sounds difficult for me as a guard player, but I have had wraiths tie up my IK for like 5 turns before. If you ain't rolling 6's it's really rough.

I know. D weapons aren't as powerful as they used to be. And yet everyone is scared of them. Realistically ranged strength D isn't that mush worse than S10, AP2 with distort.

True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

 Sarigar wrote:
True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

Which to me makes the game much more interesting.

I wonder what they will do with illic. Vindicare 2.0? He shoots a distort sniper right. Str D sniper

 Bonachinonin wrote:
I wonder what they will do with illic. Vindicare 2.0? He shoots a distort sniper right. Str D sniper

Haha! Think we might receive some serious hate then...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
True. Another piece regarding Str D is that it may bring about less deathstar 40K. Deathstar still exist because there are so few counters, especially in tourney play. Bring in Str D as a common item and I would be less inclined to run a deathstar and more inclined to run MSU.

Which to me makes the game much more interesting.

Just like 5th edition, which I felt was one of their best editions to date, and I have played them all over the past 26 years.

The thing with ranged S: D is that they make "tough" expensive vehicles that allready struggled to find a place in lists - like naughts and landraiders - even worse.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Vaeleria wrote:
Boosting units don't shoot, do they? At least here they don't. So what if they move 12" and then another 36"? that means they're not shooting. And there's enough stuff out there that'll force them to either constantly move or get caught. Maybe we'll see more meele-bikers in space marine-lists, instead of silly grav-spam

Heck they don't even need to turbo boost. They can just jump 2d6 in the assault phase instead and can still shoot if they do. That plus 12" out paces most units' 12"+d6 run.

Or they just counter assault you with a wraithknight that now weilds D weapons

This. Its just frigging ridiculous. Now if there is a pendulum swing where the ghetto armies like sisters, DA, and orks will take their turns on the top asGW intentionally shifts the meta for the bottom line (more books sold, more minis sold).... im ok with that... grudgingly.

But WTF eldar had their turn....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@koooaei: astute as always....

Frankly I'm just a little put out by the majority of Eldar players on here... their attitude just rubs me the wrong way. Hell the necrons even stated their codex was unnecessarily buffed.

The whining is never ending. Even before we see the codex!!

This thread is the second or third threat on this forum. In the other two threads Eldar players have stated time and time again that we are not happy that a new codex is dropping so soon. Many commented on hoping for a balanced book, mainly looking for aspect warriors like banshee's, scorpions, hawks, rangers, to be utilized more.

As stated before, there are ways around everything. If a unit proves too OP, most don't spam them unless it is a competitive tournament. In fact, from the people change their list to make it fun for both sides. If the area you are playing in only plays one specific list that wins 90% of the time then perhaps you're playing in a really competitive area that will come up with the next great way to counter. Yes, not every army can have a counter, but may be able to find a different way around it.

What I'm finding is that most players are appearing to be like me. Not a good enough general at coming up with a alternative strategy to counter something OP, so I'll will wait for someone to post online how I could counter a specific build. BTW, thanks to all those who comes up with wacky ideas that ends up becoming main stream! Cheers!

If they make aspect warriors viable again, I'd be excited to field a rainbow force again! Please let me take banshees again!! I have 10 banshees and scorpions that have been collecting dust... I need to clean the cob webs off my Dark Reapers too... :(

 koooaei wrote:
The thing with ranged S: D is that they make "tough" expensive vehicles that allready struggled to find a place in lists - like naughts and landraiders - even worse.

It can create an issue, but Dreadnoughts have had that problem way before Destroyer wpns. Cover and invul saves still apply unless you roll a 6 on the destroyer table. This actually could be an issue if the power 'Doom' functions the same way. But, this is why I am leaning toward MSU style play. I also doubt Eldar will be only army with D shooting in a codex. We still have a couple more codexes rumored to come out later this year.

In no way that makes expensive vehicles and fortifications more appealing.

Think about it for a second. Why don't we see many land-raiders? They're supposed to be the toughest regular vehicle with their 14-14-14, 4 HP. But the widespread access to cheap and reliable anti-vehicle weapons like melta, grav, haywire, etc. make you scratch your head on why should you get a ~250 pt vehicle that's likely getting one-shotted the moment it meets anything of the above.

S: D is simply worse than that. It's not an accident that ranged S: D got banned from most tournaments - major and not.

We're supposed to strive for ballance so that any person can pick up whatever unit he likes and, probably with some effort, find a place for it in a list so that in the end it's gona be at least oki. The fact that you auto-loose vs eldar if you like heavy vehicles, or footslogging mellee hordes, or walkers or...most things that are not considered top-tier broken like flyrant spam or grav cents, is what makes people not happy.

What is the reasoning for scatterlasers over shuriken cannons? Obviously bladestorm isn't relevent vs vehicles, but is 40 shots better than 30 with 1/6 of hits at ap2 better agaisnt guys with saves?

Also, is 30 (3 x10 or 6 x 10) thought to be the best number of bikes with the current info we have?

30 bikes is the best number if you're not looking to make friends. More than 30 is going to make enemies. And maximum number will, I think, be counter productive.

I plan to go back to the way I played them (jetbikes) at the beginning of 6th: 2 units of 3. I always took a Shuriken Cannon, reasoning that, if I was going to use them for last turn objective grabbing, they need to have a better chance of pushing competing units off objectives. Now, I will take Scatter Lasers. That way, if I hold them in reserve, I won't be missing their firepower too much. Additionally, if I get the Infiltrate Warlord Trait, I will likely use it to Outflank the jetbikes, opening up the possibility of side/rear armor shots when they do come in.

Setting up the unit this way keeps them small (so they can hide) and keeps them cheap, leaving the rest of my points to build a strong list.

If it is better to take 3 units (due to detachment/formation benefits), then I'll still take the minimum.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I know. D weapons aren't as powerful as they used to be. And yet everyone is scared of them. Realistically ranged strength D isn't that mush worse than S10, AP2 with distort.

A single S10 AP2 shot will take one wound off an eternal warrior model or one hull point off a vehicle (unless you roll a 6 on the damage chart to explode it). A D-weapon takes 1-3 wounds off an eternal warrior character, and 1-3 hull points off a vehicle on a 2+ (unless you roll a 6 on the damage chart to explode it). If you roll a 6, it does 7 wounds/hull points minimum.
So D-Weapons are 1-3 times worse than S10, AP2 with distort, and 7-12 times worse if you roll a 6.

Not really. You've not factored in that a 6 to wound with distort means the model is removed from play.

I thought distort was just instant death? But even if it is "remove from play", then D weapons are still significantly better due to the 1-3 wounds/hullpoints regardless of toughness/armor value on a 2-5, and significantly better on a 6 because they ignore all saves and have a much greater effect on superheavies (2-4 wounds/hull points vs 7-12).

Sure, you can still save against both (except for the D-weapon 6), and against single wound models it really doesn't make much of a difference (except for necrons). But against multi-wound models and heavy tanks/fortifications, D-weapons are much better.

I grant you that. But we will have to pay for the privilege.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I spoke to my local GW store manager today. The white dwarf hits tomorrow and all pre orders will be released next Saturday.

Whether people like it or not they're coming.

 koooaei wrote:
In no way that makes expensive vehicles and fortifications more appealing.

Think about it for a second. Why don't we see many land-raiders? They're supposed to be the toughest regular vehicle with their 14-14-14, 4 HP. But the widespread access to cheap and reliable anti-vehicle weapons like melta, grav, haywire, etc. make you scratch your head on why should you get a ~250 pt vehicle that's likely getting one-shotted the moment it meets anything of the above.

S: D is simply worse than that. It's not an accident that ranged S: D got banned from most tournaments - major and not.

We're supposed to strive for ballance so that any person can pick up whatever unit he likes and, probably with some effort, find a place for it in a list so that in the end it's gona be at least oki. The fact that you auto-loose vs eldar if you like heavy vehicles, or footslogging mellee hordes, or walkers or...most things that are not considered top-tier broken like flyrant spam or grav cents, is what makes people not happy.

Not sure if you were replying to my comment. I am not advocating taking expensive units; quite the opposite. This game has never been completely balanced to where you can take whatever you want and get an even matchup against any other army. This has never existed and folks will simply be saddened if they somehow think 7th magically created that situation.

These reactions are pretty much the typical rage quit rants that have been circulating since the beginning of the game. It is as if folks completely will not acknowledge the direction is going with 40K and just remain angry. Superheàvies, destroyer weapons, crazy ally combinations, gargantuan creatures, and fortifications are all apart of the game. This stuff is not going away. And what makes the situation bad is there everyone thinks that their way is the only way to have a proper game. If folks don't want to play in a particular fashion, then don't. This is a hobby and folks should enjoy that time. This is a thread to discuss how the new codex may change Eldar tactics. I have about 20,000 points of painted Eldar and am looking at this thread for that reason. I will figure out how to play with and against Eldar lists in various capacities. I'll work up tourney concepts as well as more laid back armies and play lists in appropriate environments. I have 8 painted Wave Serpents, but I don't bring an army like that unless I was playing like minded individuals. But, I am not going to apologize for spending hundreds of hobby hours and thousands of dollars on a collection that folks deem unfair. If some folks don't know how to have a discussion with another person to help ensure a mutually fun game, that is a them problem, not mine. If they enter a tourney and get hammered because they won't adjust their army to that tourney style, that is also a them problem. If they expect 40K to suddenly be 100% fair and balanced, again that is a them problem. I started playing in 1989 and it has never been completely balanced. It's just how it is with this game.

On topic: As it stands with what little info is available, I really don't see a whole lot changing in my army lists. I will give some smallish bike units a try, but I seriously doubt any unit will be above 5 strong. I've had way too many experiences losing a couple bikes and failing morale. They fallback 3d6 and go off the table. Go too far forward and the bikes get assaulted. Big units of Fleshhounds wont be affected by overwatch and big bike units just get shredded. Too much in this game can reach out and erase Jetbikes. Jinking is available, but I would hate to think I have a huge bike unit that can only hit on 6. Guide helps, but it's not an automatic cast and some armies can have enough dice to shut down my psychic phase. I think there are a ton more factors to consider on the table than just how many shots the unit produces and my play style is more condusive to having lots of smallish units hitting my opponent's army from different directions and not allowing him to figure out what is the real threat(s). Basically, make my opponent make bad decisions.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Bonachinonin wrote:
Isn't their detachment something that requires 3 troops and a heavy at least. Now I have to look at it again.

Yes it is, but they can choose to take a CAD instead if they so wish. The CAD and allied detachments from the BRB are avaliable to every force.

But Harlequins do not have an HQ choice, so they cannot take a CAD or Allied detachment of Harlequins.

Did some math regarding the Guardian Battlehost. For around 955 points (barring any changes to vehicle equipment) we get the following in the core:

Farseer
-Singing Spear

3 Warlocks
-1x Singing Spear

10 Guardian Defenders (X3)
-Starcannon

2 Vypers (Squadron)
-Bright Lance
-Shuriken Cannon

2 Vaul's Wrath (Battery)
-Shadow Weaver

3 War Walkers (Squadron)
-Scatter Laser
-Bright Lance

Total: 955 points

Even at 1500 points, this still leaves us plenty of room to fit in the necessary Auxiliary formations. Interested to see people's thought on this setup.

Since Scatter Laser is losing Laser Lock then I don't think it's worthwhile to give War Walkers a Scatter Laser and Bright Lance. Go one or the other.

Personally I'm going to try a setup like this:

Farseer
3 Warlocks
10 Guardian Defenders (x3)
- Bright Lance
3 Vypers
- Scatter Laser
- Shurikenn Cannon
3 Vaul's Wrath
- D Cannons
3 War Walkers
- Scatter Laser x2

Has their been any confirmation on the whole craftworld thing? I have a Wraith army(with only one WK, the other HS are eldar dreadnoughts with a Wraithseer in HQ, I have been fielding long before these new D weapon change rumors started and kind of enjoyed not fielding a top tier army and fielding an army of models I liked regardless of effectiveness. Has anyone seen any detachments or cores based off of the craftworlds?

Further, is there any rumor of making the rangers and pathfinders a bit more useful. I have 25 of the guys plus the new D-Weapon Illic(I somehow think that is going to change) that I would like to get more use out of.

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

Don't pull a "Tailor Swift"? Sorry but we aren't all 12 and that makes no sense.

What exactly did you all expect? I stated previously that the whiners wouldn't be happy with any changes. Eldar had no Formations or Detachments for FREE SPECIAL RULES so no matter what else happened they were going to get more powerful.

Everybody's complaining as if every Eldar player is going home to grab their stash and blow 400 bucks on new models that they'll have painted and ready next week!

My group is yawning. Nobody is getting worked up. This weekend we're gonna do 2 or 3 battles, have a few beers and when we talk about the changes they'll be suggesting new paint schemes and weapon load outs and how I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHANGES.

If you can't be that cool with your group than you need to find a new hobby.

 purplkrush wrote:

 Orock wrote:
There are a lot of eldar players trying to defend these changes. There is nothing to defend. There is no reasonable changes in the white dwarf. Don't get mad at the world because they don't agree with your assessment of the situation. And if you choose to spam these broken units don't pull a tailor swift and blame all the refused games on the other party.

Don't pull a "Tailor Swift"? Sorry but we aren't all 12 and that makes no sense.

What exactly did you all expect? I stated previously that the whiners wouldn't be happy with any changes. Eldar had no Formations or Detachments for FREE SPECIAL RULES so no matter what else happened they were going to get more powerful.

Everybody's complaining as if every Eldar player is going home to grab their stash and blow 400 bucks on new models that they'll have painted and ready next week!

My group is yawning. Nobody is getting worked up. This weekend we're gonna do 2 or 3 battles, have a few beers and when we talk about the changes they'll be suggesting new paint schemes and weapon load outs and how I SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHANGES.

If you can't be that cool with your group than you need to find a new hobby.

I like this. I'm on board with this.

Everything a new book drops, especially a top tier new book, everyone who doesn't collect that army throws a right tantrum. I told one of my closest friends and most regular opponent on the table top about the changes. His response... 'can't wait for that challenge'.

1000 points for that core isn't bad at all. But I do think the most common core you'll see is the Windrider host. I know that's the direction I'm going. Always wanted jetbikes, always hated the models. And I'm not even convinced I'll upgrade every bike. Surely the front 1 or 2 will be better off without upgrades as they'll fall down first.

It looks like Falcons might be usable now. If you take them in a squadron of 3 then they can Deep Strike. When they arrive, the first Falcon doesn't scatter and the rest arrive within 4" of the first without scattering.

Wow... Throw some Fire Dragons in them and you have a nice beta strike there.

Though I haven't seen the rule itself. These were posted on Warseer. I'm guessing the Deep Strike won't allow you to disembark models.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Hmmm, how about 15 Lootas in a BW with 4 Big Shootas for a total of 355 points? 15-45 Str 7 ap4 48" range and 12 Str 5 ap5 36" range. X3 is 1065. AV 14 front castled in a corner with a 5++ inv save and Meks to repair HP for a little more. Easy with Unbound, a little more pricey with CAD.

Or if you really want to get crazy Mek Gunz MSU.

In an 1850 list you can get over 100 T7 4 wound units that fire a Str 8 ap 3 at 36" in 4+ cover or a Str 5 ap 5 small blast 48" out of sight! If each Eldar bike squad manages to kill one unit per turn that's only 30-42 MSU's gone by games end.

Or a Stompa with 180 fearless Grots in the way.

Like every other codex release ever; Orks save the day!

Prove me wrong (hint: Orks never lose!)

Spoken like a proppa Ork Warlord... me likey!

Also, DE can be a hard counter for jetbikes / WK. Take raiders and stuff and DS onto the table for guarantee'd first round shooting... and you know DE can bring some hard core shoot'n stuff!

Zimko wrote:
I'm guessing the Deep Strike won't allow you to disembark models.

Deep strike states that the model counts as moving at whatever the speed is that is the equivalent of 6". Thus, models inside CAN disembark, but the vehicle can move no further during that turn. This is the mechanism that allows the Archon + Webway Portal + Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent to 'work'.

DCannon4Life wrote:

Zimko wrote:
This is the mechanism that allows the Archon + Webway Portal + Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent to 'work'.

I suppose, but you could just use Archon+WWP+Firedragons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:


Also, DE can be a hard counter for jetbikes / WK. Take raiders and stuff and DS onto the table for guarantee'd first round shooting... and you know DE can bring some hard core shoot'n stuff!

Since Fire Prisms can be taken in squadrons now, and their attacks gain +1 str/-1 AP for each Prism in the squadron, doesn't that mean taking two gives you two 60'' range strength 7 AP2 large blasts (or two 60'' strength 10 AP1 lances)?

 Exergy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:


Also, DE can be a hard counter for jetbikes / WK. Take raiders and stuff and DS onto the table for guarantee'd first round shooting... and you know DE can bring some hard core shoot'n stuff!

I'm not sure about that.

With the WK becoming guargantuan DE lose out on their posion and only have a few fleshbane attacks.

Dropping a raider full of warriors isnt gonna do much. Costs more than 6 jetbikes. When it can scatter, potentially getting it out of RP fire or into a mishap.
If it is in Rapid Fire Range, it will kill less than 4 jetbikes.

It only takes 2 jetbikes to kill a raider, or 6 if it jinks with a nightshield(wow, just wow). If the raider explodes, about a 50% chance, then half the warriors will die in the fireball. If a splintercannon surivies, it might be able to at least shoot the jet bikes in subsiquent turns, but the other warriors now will take no further offensive part in the battle.

My BA already have a couple. " oh, eldar, never mind this is actually my list" list builds.

I've heard rumours about the points cost of the new and improved wraithknight..... Can anybody point me in the right direction as I can't find them...

The Wraithknight is 295 points and comes stock with two heavy wraith-cannons.

Personally I'm looking forward to getting this book, not to thrilled that all distort weapons are D but whatever. It honestly just motivates me to focus on my Biel Tan Aspect warriors. Honestly sounds like falcons will be fun to use and bs 2 overwatch on DA sounds like a nice boost for a traditionally meh unit. The jetbikes look like they'd be fun to try but I can already see the hydra or whatever tank that ignores jink and the lamen Russ tanks lining up. Lol would still be fun to try for alotta dakka in my troops choice against hordes. Though I'm thinkin more units of 5 moving alongside a squad of Shining Spears. Haven't heard much about the avatar yet so I can't say anything about him beyond I hope he's worth his points. The Knight becoming a gargantuan creature doesn't bother me to much since it finally gives me a good counter to the apocalypse daemons like Ann'grath. Might actually bring him to the table finally. He'll make an excellent LOW hunter or trench buster that's for sure.

Anyone think the +3" to run and charge is going to make banshees useful?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Anyone think the +3" to run and charge is going to make banshees useful?

Yup... and they ignore the terrian penalty AND opponent can't fire overwatch.

Seems like DE is going to get some love with this codex... imagine Banshees + DE Raiders.

Makes for an interesting option. IIRC they have fleet. Turn 1assault possible? Raider moves 6", disembark within 6", charge 2d6+3 with rerollsand no overwatch? Did I make a mistake somewhere?

 Sarigar wrote:
Makes for an interesting option. IIRC they have fleet. Turn 1assault possible? Raider moves 6", disembark within 6", charge 2d6+3 with rerollsand no overwatch? Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Certainly possible, but not very likely. Definitely buy turn 2.

I'm pretty sure that the Warhost Provides a 6" run on all models but it's still unclear on that.

If true it makes huge swathes of troops insanely good and turns them into "quasi" beasts.

Fire Dragons disembark, Battle Focus 6" move , Fire w/ BS5.

Lots of options. There was a little used piece of wargear on vehicles that allowed them to pivot after shooting. This would allow you to maximize the distance for Dragons for a first turn shooting and not expose rear armor to the tank. With the changes to Wave Serpents, this may be a more viable option. Even Falcons in a pinch.

I still don't think that Falcons are viable, even with the changes to Aspect Warriors and the new formation. Wave Serpents are now significantly cheaper, and the formation isn't very good; it's like deep-striking a Land Raider, except now you can deep-strike three!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Wraithknight is 295 points and comes stock with two heavy wraith-cannons.

Is this confirmed? Please tell me it's a definite..... Oh god the hate is going to flow!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Wraithknight is 295 points and comes stock with two heavy wraith-cannons.

Is this confirmed? Please tell me it's a definite..... Oh god the hate is going to flow!

Its like 95% confirmed.

I love that, purely cos I can counter my friends riptide spam.w with 2-3 Knights.

Not that I'd ever do that in a friendly games. Friendly games I may not even take one. Perhaps go back to Lords.

So will the Iyanden suppliment still be legal? My army is a Wraith army with multiple Edar dreadnoughts(I refuse to whatever their new name is) a knight, a wraithseer and a couple squads of spiders. I do not want to field a whole butt load of crap I have no need for in a core detachment when the whole theme is Wraith.

Col. Dash wrote:
So will the Iyanden suppliment still be legal? My army is a Wraith army with multiple Edar dreadnoughts(I refuse to whatever their new name is) a knight, a wraithseer and a couple squads of spiders. I do not want to field a whole butt load of crap I have no need for in a core detachment when the whole theme is Wraith.

It does not appear that the Iyanden supplement will still be valid, unfortunately. The wraithseer also appears to be no more.

The core detachment is very restrictive, yes. Fortunately there is still the rule book standard CAD.

Also, I recommend using the 6th edition rules for Distortion weapons if you want to field lots of Wraith units, for reasons that should be obvious.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Anyone think the +3" to run and charge is going to make banshees useful?

Tau are not going to be happy.

 KiloFiX wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Anyone think the +3" to run and charge is going to make banshees useful?

Tau are not going to be happy.

We will be fine until our book gets updated and we lose our current supporting fire rule...then yeah were screwed!

In regards to Eldar I am somewhat interested in potentially running an Alaitoc themed list, what would be the best way in going about this? Kind of clueless when it comes to Eldar

You can't overwatch against banshees. Tau may begin weeping.

 Marsyas wrote:
You can't overwatch against banshees. Tau may begin weeping.

Well I stand corrected! Yeah thats kind of scary

people are freaking out over distort being replaced by destroyer. In most cases (single wound models) it is just business as usual. They got an upgrade against multi wound models due to D3 wounds on models that are wounded on 2s-5s. 6s are still going to punk most things as per usual. Those 6s are just a lot more poweful, and are a huge threat to Knights, or models with larger wound pools.

More reliable killing power, on expensive (money and points), units that will be harder to take lots of. They can still be killed with only a bit extra effort. Spiritseer can't make them troops anymore so you won't see them spammed on the table.

Armies of jetbike spam won't be as horrible as its being made out to be. You'll need to run such large squads it will be hard to hide them all, causing a lot of jinking, and not a lot of room to move around due to their large foot print.

Let's get some play testing in before we burn everything down.

Can I get a source on Banshees preventing overwatch? I'd heard about the +3'' charge/run for them, and the taking no penalties for charging through cover, but not the overwatch denial.

I'm starting to get worried that wish-listing is getting mixed into the real data.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6944/eldar-aspect-warrior-special-rules

partninja wrote:
people are freaking out over distort being replaced by destroyer. In most cases (single wound models) it is just business as usual. They got an upgrade against multi wound models due to D3 wounds on models that are wounded on 2s-5s. 6s are still going to punk most things as per usual. Those 6s are just a lot more poweful, and are a huge threat to Knights, or models with larger wound pools.

More reliable killing power, on expensive (money and points), units that will be harder to take lots of. They can still be killed with only a bit extra effort. Spiritseer can't make them troops anymore so you won't see them spammed on the table.

Armies of jetbike spam won't be as horrible as its being made out to be. You'll need to run such large squads it will be hard to hide them all, causing a lot of jinking, and not a lot of room to move around due to their large foot print.

Let's get some play testing in before we burn everything down.

I think the d scythes is a huge issue. Going from middling strength to obliterating land raiders, MC's, and smaller super heavies like knights and obelisks. That's no bueno. That's a huge change.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6944/eldar-aspect-warrior-special-rules

Thanks.

Man... honestly this sounds like the most wish-listy gak I've ever heard. I know the dude providing this info is known for being reliable, but, idk...

d-scythes will be different, vs armor value, mind you they are short range less than 12" of the wraithgun, can probably only hit one vehicle at a time? and do less damage than a wraithgun , 1-2 nothing, pen 3+.
vs non vehicles they will wound on 3+ which is a big difference.
in actual play will they be any worse than a fire dragon dont forget they were 42 points with d-scythe. has anyone mathhammered this out yet?

I think the D-Scythes are a trap, frankly.

Wraithguard in general actually. I would take WWP Fire Dragons over WG and their d-weapons any day, frankly. They're wounding most MC's on a 2+ and ignoring armor save, and +1 on the vehicle damage table means they're exploding vehicles on a 4+ with each hit. That's huge.

I am convinced that instead of making d-weapons D str they gave them a d-weapon damage table, like older codex's that was the same as D-str people would barely notice instead of freaking out.

partninja wrote:
people are freaking out over distort being replaced by destroyer. In most cases (single wound models) it is just business as usual. They got an upgrade against multi wound models due to D3 wounds on models that are wounded on 2s-5s. 6s are still going to punk most things as per usual. Those 6s are just a lot more poweful, and are a huge threat to Knights, or models with larger wound pools.

More reliable killing power, on expensive (money and points), units that will be harder to take lots of. They can still be killed with only a bit extra effort. Spiritseer can't make them troops anymore so you won't see them spammed on the table.

Armies of jetbike spam won't be as horrible as its being made out to be. You'll need to run such large squads it will be hard to hide them all, causing a lot of jinking, and not a lot of room to move around due to their large foot print.

Let's get some play testing in before we burn everything down.

It's the d-scythe more than anything else that is causing the issues. They are obscene. Against vehicles, a minimum sized squad is throwing out 5 auto hits that on a 3+ cause a penetrating hit with d3 hull points. No cover.

And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think the D-Scythes are a trap, frankly.

Wraithguard in general actually. I would take WWP Fire Dragons over WG and their d-weapons any day, frankly. They're wounding most MC's on a 2+ and ignoring armor save, and +1 on the vehicle damage table means they're exploding vehicles on a 4+ with each hit. That's huge.

How could you ever justify not taking D-Scythe Wraithguard over Fire Dragons, who cares if they wound on a 3+ they do D3 Wounds a piece they'll straight up destroy vehicles w/ D3 Hull Points taken off per template.

Even with the -1 to the chart it's insanely powerful.

Also they're the same points now, you just swap weapons.

So, how does the Hemlock look like? Flyer with some D?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

That wounds on a 3+, and doesn't ignore invul or feel no pain.
I think it's going to be over-kill on some units, and under-performing against others.
I think I'd rather go with twice as many fire dragons.

No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

That wounds on a 3+, and doesn't ignore invul or feel no pain.
I think it's going to be over-kill on some units, and under-performing against others.
I think I'd rather go with twice as many fire dragons.

As above. FNP is not an issue.

5 D-scythes will do on average 6.666 wounds to a squad with single wounds charging it - with invulnerable saves being the only method of reducing it.

Could be 6.666 guardsmen, or it could be 6.666 MEQ.

I wouldn't call it under performing. Just make sure they get to the right place.

Poor targets for the flamers tend to be good targets for scatterlasers.

I always ran a squad of D-Scythes in a serpent. The issue is that to get wraith guard within the host detachment you need a wraith host. Which comes with a tax of 3 squads if guard, a Lord, and a knight.... And ranged D weapons seems to be getting people all flustered.

Now, say my gaming group wasn't a bunch of crying, screaming, tantrum throwing babies. And that I had spoken to them, and not a single one of them had a problem with all the new rumoured rules. And that pretty much every single one of them was looking forward to the challenge of taking the new eldar book and already looking at combinations to field against them. I've always ran iyanden and been wraith heavy. So, do we think the wraith host would be a reasonable selection? Considering there is a guardian/Windrider host tax. And do people know the benefits the wraith host will get?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"[i]For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10.

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs./i]"

no fnp vs Destroyer regardless of toughness.

Your just not doubled out and removed because of the strength the 4 if you have multiple wounds.

Example: warboss with a pain boy gets hit by D Scythe. He suffers I wound. It counts as a S4 ( not 10) wound so he is not insta deathed( double his toughness) . But gets no fnp due to it being a destroyer weapon.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

Rumor on scythes is that they are -1 to the D table and only S4 for instant death.
You don't get the FnP as stated, which is a bummer, that would have given DE a fighting chance. Doesn't do instant death, just D3 wounds, which is pretty close to instant death.
It seems like to me that a few D weapons and a smattering of scatter-bikes is all you need. Throw in a squad of reapers to down flyers. Call it a day.

The question becomes, is their any hard counter to Wraith Knights + Bikes? WK seem to tear up IK, and crush expensive AV14 and AV13. Bikes murder AV11 or less and pretty much all infantry.
I honestly don't know what to do.

No one else is giddy over the apparent possibility to give Dark Reapers BS5 and Flak missiles for 35 points.

2 Squad of Dark Reapers
1 Squad of Fire Dragons

The Fire Dragons get Battle Focus still so they can all be kept in reserve, move 12" onto the board due to the Warhosts ability to always run 6".

Then just wipe out everything since they've got BS5

Dark Reapers have BS5

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

Rumor on scythes is that they are -1 to the D table and only S4 for instant death.
You don't get the FnP as stated, which is a bummer, that would have given DE a fighting chance. Doesn't do instant death, just D3 wounds, which is pretty close to instant death.
It seems like to me that a few D weapons and a smattering of scatter-bikes is all you need. Throw in a squad of reapers to down flyers. Call it a day.

The question becomes, is their any hard counter to Wraith Knights + Bikes? WK seem to tear up IK, and crush expensive AV14 and AV13. Bikes murder AV11 or less and pretty much all infantry.
I honestly don't know what to do.

i only play orks, I'm with you. Not sure what to do either.

Was hoping lootas, but with serpeants doing 2d6 shots , S6 ignore cover, they will get murdered pretty fast.
Mega nobs get vaporized with the amount of SD and AP2.
Maybe bikes, but any ignore cover kills them too. And jet bikes are more mobile and better range to avoid them.

The point of the eldar is that they have a tool to deal with any opponent. We can all conceive of an eldar list that can crush any other list without to much problem. Except for tau. Tau are pretty much always a problem for them. But this is the way its supposed to be. I can Taylor a list to handle pretty much anyone. But not against everyone. There is a pretty significant difference between those two.

When you are playing against eldar you have to decide what the tools they have that are best against you and take those things out post haste. Its tough and if your opponent is better than you you won't be able to do it but I have always loved the symphony of destruction that a well built eldar list can play.

DarkenAvatar wrote:
The point of the eldar is that they have a tool to deal with any opponent. We can all conceive of an eldar list that can crush any other list without to much problem. Except for tau. Tau are pretty much always a problem for them. But this is the way its supposed to be. I can Taylor a list to handle pretty much anyone. But not against everyone. There is a pretty significant difference between those two.

When you are playing against eldar you have to decide what the tools they have that are best against you and take those things out post haste. Its tough and if your opponent is better than you you won't be able to do it but I have always loved the symphony of destruction that a well built eldar list can play.

this used to be the case but with the next dex, you can make a list with nothing but 3 types of units - wraith knights, jetbikes, and a HQ jetseer or two. The problem is that this kind of list counters just about anything and everything very efficiently. It's stupid but that kind of list will already be tailored to kill just about everything out there currently. You really don't even need to be trying that hard to tailor. Basic troops + heavy support not even counting a formation is enough lol.

Melee- never get there, shot to death by the sheer amount of str 6 bs4 shooting available to the very long range jetbikes. Big tough guys to tank it all? the WK's will D-weapon all those since they are heavy support right now instead of a single LoW. Vs flyers, you still have massive rate of fire but it is their one slight weakness though I'd be surprised if you can't glance down Av12 flyers or Mc's fairly effectively with that many str 6 shots. Objectives? they are faster than just about anything on the board. It's actually worse than the old serpent spam. Used to be around 3-5 types of units, now we're down to 3 units and they are all nearly the best in the game vs anything similar points from other armies.

Good news all you have to do for any army is make sure to ally with Space Marines and take Grav Guns.

Totally a viable tactic to deal with Wraithknights.

Anyway, back to tactics. I don't want to field just 3 units. One if the reasons I love our army is variety. In all honesty, I used to run a pure iyanden wraith list. And I loved it. But I don't want to do that with this new book.

So, I'm thinking the core of my army will be the Windrider host. Obvious reason. Probably 3 squads of 5 bikes each with a warlock and a sprinkling of scatter lasers and cannons. I think upgrading them all is pointless as I reckon some will die before they get to shoot anyway. I'm then looking at an aspect host. But perhaps combining it with a falcon squadron. If the rumours are true, three falcons can deep strike.... And then a squad of dragons could get out of one with their +1 on the damage chart.... Bye bye enemy tank. It's almost an imperial knight counter without even taking a wraithknight. I want to take my knight as I've spent money on the damn thing. But if people are crying that much then I may not. Or I may field a sword variant. I'd love to throw a crimson Hunter on the table, but the can only be bought in squadrons of 3 now. So I'm thinking about using one or maybe two of the other aspect slots as reapers along side the fragons. I'd like to know if they can shops to skyfire or not. If they can they're almost an auto include I think.

Hollismason wrote:
Good news all you have to do for any army is make sure to ally with Space Marines and take Grav Guns.

Totally a viable tactic to deal with Wraithknights.

Grav guns are also good against the jet bikes too. It all comes down to who gets to alpha strike first. Bike can move 12" and shoot 18" grav guns so hopefully thats sufficient distance. Gating invisible gravcents are very powerful against them too.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate how much Howling Banshees have been improved.

Stick 'em in a raider.

Move raider 6'', disembark models 6''.

Average charge range on a 2d6 with fleet is 8''. Add 3'' due to their special rule.

6+6+8+3= 23''. Banshees in a raider can reliably charge units that are 23'' away from them, and those units may not fire overwatch. And the banshees don't take an initiative penalty for charging through cover.

Now granted, they still run into the problem of doing poor damage once they're in combat due to strength 3, but still. That's insane for a 6'' moving unit.

Don't they have furious charge too?

They don't have it in their 5th/6th edition incarnations. Dunno about now.

OK, I may have misread... I'm still quite excited for them. Though I'm not sure if that's because they're good.... Or just so much better than they used to be.

I was starting to get okay with D-weapons until this weekend. Now I am firmly against them and hope tournaments will Errata them.

It sucks to be completely in control of the game, played solid for 4 turns and then to just see them roll 4 sixes, remove your army, and there is nothing you can do. Its just not fun. 6, there goes my warlord, 6 there goes my transport, 6 there goes my MC, 6 there goes my vehicle.

I do everything right tactically, movement wise, placement. All he had to do was roll 4 sixes and he won. That is not fun to play against. I can deal with it from CC, usually its not every turn and its maybe 3-4 attacks that need to hit.

Ranged? its just not fun. Its like facing an invis cent-star, or a 2+ re-rollable unit. Sure I could technically do something and maybe beat it but most of the game is me rolling dice, doing nothing, and then picking up models.

You just cant invest in anything with all this ranged D, you cant run any of the fun units when they can reliably one shot ANYTHING in the game with one unit shooting....

I could go on, but I hope for the sake of the game TO's limit it.

I love my wraith army. Literally adored it. And personally thought distort was fine as it was. I had no problem with it. I welcomed the ghost glaive changing to a D weapon, in line with the bloodthirster and the imperial knight. I was a little.... Surprised that they made all wraith weapons strength D.

I've said it before, luckily, having played an iyanden wraith army for 2 years, this time round I was actually more tempted to field a fast aspect type army. And it looks like I'll be able to do that and stay competitive. Luckily I'd pretty much made that decision before I found out that all wraith weapons were D strength.

Now, I am one of the eldar players that's against nerfing ourselves. I don't have to force myself to not take D weapons. I'm not taking many ranged D weapons because I don't want to, not because my opponent or gaming group has said I can't play if I did. Perhaps that's why none of them are that bothered that I'm picking this new book up on Saturday. They know me well enough to be assured I won't be THE.

And personally, as it stands with no other army having any access to any form of ranged D other than vortex of doom, I don't think I'd complain if a local tournament banned it. I'd just field all those aspect warriors that I'm literally DESPERATE to talk tactics with you all about. It would be somewhat easier if all the whiners and moaners decided to shut up for just 5 minutes.

But I will be taking jetbikes. And I will be taking more than one upgrading. I shan't spam them. But I will build a decent list. And I am still likely to take a single wraith construct with a glaive, shield and probably scatter lasers. And if someone suggests I can't, then I shall remind them that I had absolutely no problem with their imperial knight when it showed up almost immediately after it was released and simply wrecked havoc on my board. And nor did I cry when the XV109 was placed on the table top. A forge world iteration that I had never seen before. In both instances, I said 'cool model' and then tried hard to make him remove his pride and joy. As I'm sure people will do with me.

Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death

SO on D-scythes are str what for wounding?

So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

shadowfinder wrote:
Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death

SO on D-scythes are str what for wounding?

So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

OK, they are strength D for wounding. It means simply that you roll on the destroyer weapon chart instead of rolling to wound as usual. And yes, with a -1 modifier. So a 1 or 2 means no damage done. And a 3-6 is D3 wounds. It means that against scythes things like invulnerable saves will always be allowed, because they can't get a 6 result on the destroyer table.

As for the strength 4. That's purely for instant death purposes. So if you hit a toughness 3 multiwound model and your D3 result is just a 1 then they'll only lose one wound. But, if they're toughness 2 then 1 wound will be enough to remove the model.

Make sense?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death

SO on D-scythes are str what for wounding?

So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

OK, they are strength D for wounding. It means simply that you roll on the destroyer weapon chart instead of rolling to wound as usual. And yes, with a -1 modifier. So a 1 or 2 means no damage done. And a 3-6 is D3 wounds. It means that against scythes things like invulnerable saves will always be allowed, because they can't get a 6 result on the destroyer table.

As for the strength 4. That's purely for instant death purposes. So if you hit a toughness 3 multiwound model and your D3 result is just a 1 then they'll only lose one wound. But, if they're toughness 2 then 1 wound will be enough to remove the model.

Make sense?

Thanks for clearing that up. I was a little lost on that.

No worries.... Now maybe someone will talk tactics and list building with me....

I'm looking forward to being able to run the pile of metal aspect warriors sitting in the box, thanks GW for banshees, my knight will be a special occasion toy now as no one locally runs super heavys , so the my regular opponents will be happy to see it go.
By buffing the less than viable units GW may have everyone a huge favour as eldar players will be able to run the units they always wanted to, not just the ones they have to.

I think the biggest upset I have with this new codex is that my wife plays Eldar, and thats a lot of newly viable units we have to buy. : /

But in the far spectrum, I'm very, very interested to see how Nova handles this. Its my first year attending, and something tells me they arent going to hold the tournament for hundreds of Eldar only players, so something will have to be done.

The only thing I dislike about the new codex, is the requirements for the guardian hosts. Having to take a support battery, unit of vypers, and a unit of warwalkers is a bit much for two of the options. Having to choose 1-2 of those three would have been less taxing IMO. Vyper making more sense as a requirement for the windrider host over the other two rather than ALL of them.

As far as tactics, I can't wait to field the aspect formation. It's probably THE best formation for Eldar units in the book IMO. I'm trying to figure out a good way to get Banshees into combat without using allied raiders. I'm thinking about still putting them into a Wave Serpent to get them safely into the mid field on turn 1 supported by other faster moving units (bikes, seer council) for saturation, drop them out turn two, then using their superior movement to get into combat turn 3. I don't think strait up running them across the table will be worth while, even using cover, considering scorpions will be more durable all around and have a higher strength/attacks in combat. Scorpions, will be much more useful, specially with the Exarch possibly getting a few extra attacks with his special weapons now. They'll be quite excellent along side a ranger based army supported by Vypers, bikes and warwalkers.

Yeah, the vyper tax on every host irritated me too. I instantly wanted the Windrider host with those new bikes, and vypers make sense there. But the guardian hosts can be a big point sink with war walkers and support battery's. Not unusable though. I was also a little irritated to see that crimson hunters can only be taken in squadrons of 3. But then I never really fielded one anyway.

And without wishing to break the Internet again with moans about D weapons, I'm gutted I can't field my scythe guard without having to get two more squads of wraith guard and a Lord on the table. I don't want that many guard in this army.

Of course, that's all solved with combined arms. Or by taking the wraith host formation as my primary detachment. But I don't want to do either of those.

I always liked Scythe-guard as well. Usually included one ina serpent as one of my troops choices. However, that's not possible anymore.

instead of trying to be fair and only wanting to take one unit of the so called "omg OP bull crap D weapon manz", I am forced to take multiples of them, and lords, and a knight.......Unless I don't use any of the new detachments rules...but I want to use the new shiny rules!

 Iechine wrote:
I think the biggest upset I have with this new codex is that my wife plays Eldar, and thats a lot of newly viable units we have to buy. : /

But in the far spectrum, I'm very, very interested to see how Nova handles this. Its my first year attending, and something tells me they arent going to hold the tournament for hundreds of Eldar only players, so something will have to be done.

First off all low super heavies and gargantuans are banned so no wraith knights or wraith host detachments with them.
Secondly the other three range d, wraith guard, platforms, hemlock sounds like they are going to allow just the nerfd d scythe version or make all normal ranged d into nerfed d scythe versions.
I doubt they will do anything to mass hvy wpn scatter laser toting bikes, but I'm sure it depends on play testing results for the next two to three months.

So excited about this!! Really can't wait.

Shame there has been so much negativity from some, but I think it just calls for a bit of creativity on their part to counter the new buffed things.

All changes make sense to me. It does seem like the new jetbikes will bring a lot of heavy weapons...if you're ok with mounting them on a fast Space Marine. I think if people spam Windriders then they will limit their own mobility by having that amount of models. Plus, who isn't bringing AP3 and better weapons? Plus they'll be jinking. Don't think it's as much of an issue as people think.

For me personally, I'm Ulthwe so I'll be using the Warhost Detachment, taking a Guardian Defender Host and a Seer Council. If it's a big game I'd use a Wraithknight but for most games (under 2k pts) I might actually try the Hemlock...!

Shane I can't use my single unit of Wraithguard anymore...

Is there any word on any new rules for Rangers / Outcasts yet?

partninja wrote:
I always liked Scythe-guard as well. Usually included one ina serpent as one of my troops choices. However, that's not possible anymore.

instead of trying to be fair and only wanting to take one unit of the so called "omg OP bull crap D weapon manz", I am forced to take multiples of them, and lords, and a knight.......Unless I don't use any of the new detachments rules...but I want to use the new shiny rules!

Yeah, I'm the same. I'm a little disappointed at the size of the formations. Daemonkin required 1 Hq, 2 troops and a unit of possessed minimum. Both guardian hosts and the wraith hosts are significantly bigger than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bhazakhain wrote:
So excited about this!! Really can't wait.

Shame there has been so much negativity from some, but I think it just calls for a bit of creativity on their part to counter the new buffed things.

All changes make sense to me. It does seem like the new jetbikes will bring a lot of heavy weapons...if you're ok with mounting them on a fast Space Marine. I think if people spam Windriders then they will limit their own mobility by having that amount of models. Plus, who isn't bringing AP3 and better weapons? Plus they'll be jinking. Don't think it's as much of an issue as people think.

For me personally, I'm Ulthwe so I'll be using the Warhost Detachment, taking a Guardian Defender Host and a Seer Council. If it's a big game I'd use a Wraithknight but for most games (under 2k pts) I might actually try the Hemlock...!

Shane I can't use my single unit of Wraithguard anymore...

Is there any word on any new rules for Rangers / Outcasts yet?

Yeah, I agree with your take on bikes completely. I've always played iyanden.... I love background and the scheme. But I'm going to have to have a lot more 'living' models in my army now.

That is one thing I don't get. If you're Iyanden the Wraith Host should be the main thing but you have to have an awful lot of living Eldar in there. Is the supplement still valid?

Our choices are (a) spam a single Guardian choice, or (b) go CAD.

For Guardian spam:
1) Scatter Bikes are going to be derp. Enough has been said in other threads
2) Storm Guardians may actually see use in heavily offensive lists. I doubt it'll be tourny-level, but with an Avatar in there, they can be a scary assault threat. Without the Avatar, though, I don't think we'll see much of them.
3) 3 units of Defenders (min 10 each) are quite an investment. Could be a solid defensive line backed by some big guns. Similar to current builds, plus some new threats. Except that its capped at 1 Vaul's Wrath, I think.


Its too bad we can't mix and match. 2x Defenders + a Storm or Windrider unit could be fun, but 3x one unit just doesn't feel right.

I'll be running the CAD, and usually Swordwind. Perhaps more vehicles, though.

I actually don't own War Walkers or Vaul's Wrath batteries so this might be a trip to eBay!! I think I'll take 2 Vypers, War Walkers and Support Batteries, 2x 10 man Defender units and one 20 man unit. Is the free platform perk one per unit or one per detachment?

Assuming Eldar can take the other formations by themselves like Necrons, I might even just run 1-2 aspect hosts with 0-1 Avenger host and a heroes/living legends character. From the screen shots, I can't tell if this is possible or not.

People keep overlooking that Eldar Guardians move 12" with the War Host.

To me that makes them valuable as a cheap unit and mobile as well plus they get a free Support Weapon and give Preferred Enemy to War Walkers etc..

Hollismason wrote:
People keep overlooking that Eldar Guardians move 12" with the War Host.

To me that makes them valuable as a cheap unit and mobile as well plus they get a free Support Weapon and give Preferred Enemy to War Walkers etc..

I completely agree, however I don't have enough models to field the Guardian hosts currently. I think that is a large turn off for a lot of people. It's not so much what is in there, it's how many.

partninja wrote:
Assuming Eldar can take the other formations by themselves like Necrons, I might even just run 1-2 aspect hosts with 0-1 Avenger host and a heroes/living legends character. From the screen shots, I can't tell if this is possible or not.

Yeah, it works the same. So you can take a formation like the aspect, and make that your primary, and fill your points with other formations to make it a legal bound choice. But you won't get the bonuses of the overall warhost, just the individual formations.

Ah so Iyanden players could take a Wraith Host as primary? I hope for their sake that's true. So the whole thing about one compulsory guardian host formation is only if you want to benefit from the Warhost perks?

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Ah so Iyanden players could take a Wraith Host as primary? I hope for their sake that's true. So the whole thing about one compulsory guardian host formation is only if you want to benefit from the Warhost perks?

That's how it is with Necrons, and is what he is saying. Just looking at the picture of the leaked chart, it does appear to be the opposite though as it says 1-12 per guardian host. There are probably separate pages with the formation datasheets like Necrons. This would allow you to just run the formations (but lose the added warhost bonus - but keep your formation specific bonus).

You don't have to use the special detachment system and simply use the standard FOC. If I have to add two squads of cheap rangers to fill out my troop slots so be it, Ill find a few points somewhere. My army will continue to be:
Seer
Wraithseer w D-Cannon
2x7 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
2x5 Wraithguard (5 scythe, 5 guns) in a BL serpent
2 Dreadnoughts(wraithlords)
Knight with suncannon

Unless they significantly change points around, my list should still be pretty functional. Look ma', no Vypers!

partninja wrote:

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Ah so Iyanden players could take a Wraith Host as primary? I hope for their sake that's true. So the whole thing about one compulsory guardian host formation is only if you want to benefit from the Warhost perks?

That's how it is with Necrons, and is what he is saying. Just looking at the picture of the leaked chart, it does appear to be the opposite though as it says 1-12 per guardian host. There are probably separate pages with the formation datasheets like Necrons. This would allow you to just run the formations (but lose the added warhost bonus - but keep your formation specific bonus).

That's how it works in the daemonkin book. You have one slaughtercult that allows you 1-8 auxiliary. Buy you can take the auxiliary formations separately.

A point to note though, if it does work like the daemonkin book one of the auxiliary slots is 'daemon engines' (maulerfiends and the like) these aren't a formation and simply a single model. So you can't field them unless they're with a slaughtercult, or in a CAD.

The same may go for the auxiliary selection labelled 'wraith constructs' meaning that if you don't take a guardian host, and your primary is a wraith host then you'll only have access to a single wraithknight. Not that that's such a bad thing considering its power now.

Col. Dash wrote:
You don't have to use the special detachment system and simply use the standard FOC. If I have to add two squads of cheap rangers to fill out my troop slots so be it, Ill find a few points somewhere. My army will continue to be:
Seer
Wraithseer w D-Cannon
2x7 Warp Spiders
Crimson Hunter
2x5 Wraithguard (5 scythe, 5 guns) in a BL serpent
2 Dreadnoughts(wraithlords)
Knight with suncannon

Unless they significantly change points around, my list should still be pretty functional. Look ma', no Vypers!

But all those new shiny formation rules! I don't care about the army wide auto-6 run (although it is awesome on some units) so much as I want the +1WS/BS on aspects

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

partninja wrote:

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Ah so Iyanden players could take a Wraith Host as primary? I hope for their sake that's true. So the whole thing about one compulsory guardian host formation is only if you want to benefit from the Warhost perks?

That's how it is with Necrons, and is what he is saying. Just looking at the picture of the leaked chart, it does appear to be the opposite though as it says 1-12 per guardian host. There are probably separate pages with the formation datasheets like Necrons. This would allow you to just run the formations (but lose the added warhost bonus - but keep your formation specific bonus).

That's how it works in the daemonkin book. You have one slaughtercult that allows you 1-8 auxiliary. Buy you can take the auxiliary formations separately.

A point to note though, if it does work like the daemonkin book one of the auxiliary slots is 'daemon engines' (maulerfiends and the like) these aren't a formation and simply a single model. So you can't field them unless they're with a slaughtercult, or in a CAD.

The same may go for the auxiliary selection labelled 'wraith constructs' meaning that if you don't take a guardian host, and your primary is a wraith host then you'll only have access to a single wraithknight. Not that that's such a bad thing considering its power now.

Same for the Necrons. One of the Auxiliary options is to take a C'Tan or Vault, but since that isn't actually a formation you can't just take that in other armies.