dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Lots of great lists in the past couple pages here but I have a question:
It doesn't look like anyone ever takes any air units. How are you guys dealing with enemy air units?
If I know I'm facing multiple flyers, I might do a Canoness on a Quad Gun. Single flyers I usually try to ignore. I haven't had flyers in a game in which Coteaz is hanging out with HB Retributiors, but that's bound to happen eventually.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Also where is this rule that lets an Inquisitor grant an extra warlord trait that I keep hearing about?
The Inquisitorial Representative Detachment or the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband Formation from Codex: Imperial Agents both let the Inquisitor from those detachments generate a Warlord Trait even if they're not the Warlord.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Also where is this rule that lets an Inquisitor grant an extra warlord trait that I keep hearing about?
The Inquisitorial Representative Detachment or the Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband Formation from Codex: Imperial Agents both let the Inquisitor from those detachments generate a Warlord Trait even if they're not the Warlord.
Ahh I see, thank you. So those guys won't get ObSec from Coteaz.
And the Strategic Traits table is considered the best I assume? If you get two copies of the same warlord trait (like +1 to seize or -1 to enemy reserve roll) do they stack?
Whats peoples opinion on the Vestal formation? If I take a MSU Celestene squad and kit them out just like a BBS, I'm paying an extra 10pts (5 sisters), losing obj sec, and swapping the acts of faith. I gain a army wide reroll armour saves of 1 for a whole turn, and a reroll on the warlord table. Do you see this as a worthy trade off?
the_Jakman wrote: Whats peoples opinion on the Vestal formation? If I take a MSU Celestene squad and kit them out just like a BBS, I'm paying an extra 10pts (5 sisters), losing obj sec, and swapping the acts of faith. I gain a army wide reroll armour saves of 1 for a whole turn, and a reroll on the warlord table. Do you see this as a worthy trade off?
Are you looking to play competitively? If so, there's nothing the vestal task force brings that a CAD would not do better. Objective Secure is super important to be competitive nowaday.
If Ob Sec is not a concern for you, then it's not a bad formation. You can re-roll Celestine's 2+ save for a critical turn. THe warlord trait re-roll is terrible if you ask me. None of them are very good and the good ones you can get from Celestine or Jacobus as your warlord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone been considering adding Guilliman to your army list as the Lord of War?
He synchronize's well with Celestine since she can give him It Will Not Die for the entire game.
His 12 inches bubble of Command Traits can also be very decent.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: And the Strategic Traits table is considered the best I assume? If you get two copies of the same warlord trait (like +1 to seize or -1 to enemy reserve roll) do they stack?
No they don't stack (no rule stack with itself unless explicitly specified).
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: And the Strategic Traits table is considered the best I assume? If you get two copies of the same warlord trait (like +1 to seize or -1 to enemy reserve roll) do they stack?
No they don't stack (no rule stack with itself unless explicitly specified).
And yeah, Strategic is usually a good bet.
Not saying I don't believe you but where does it say they don't stack? I couldn't find it.
Yeah, to get the most out of him, you need a lot of the Ultramarine Battle Tactics... and if you are doing Ultramarines, then why do you have sisters?
If you have an Ultramarine army I can see you taking Celestine, but not the other way around.
What psychic disciplines are people grabbing for Castellans when taking Librarians/Librarius conclave/Coteaz? I haven't used a psyker since 2nd Edition 40K so I have almost no clue what disciplines are any good.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: And the Strategic Traits table is considered the best I assume? If you get two copies of the same warlord trait (like +1 to seize or -1 to enemy reserve roll) do they stack?
No they don't stack (no rule stack with itself unless explicitly specified).
And yeah, Strategic is usually a good bet.
Not saying I don't believe you but where does it say they don't stack? I couldn't find it.
I don't remember where, but it's somewhere i nthe rulebook that they say multiple instance of the same rule don't stack.
Plus, we already had similar cases (like the tetrad ) where GW confirmed you don't stack multiple instances of the same warlord trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taikishi wrote: What psychic disciplines are people grabbing for Castellans when taking Librarians/Librarius conclave/Coteaz? I haven't used a psyker since 2nd Edition 40K so I have almost no clue what disciplines are any good.
That entirely depends on your army, your opponent army and your own preferences.
If you only have one psyker, you probably don't have the same strategy as if you're running a full conclave deathstar-style and consequently you won't be looking for the same powers.
If your opponent has triple the amount of warp charges you have, then it's better to focus on blessings/summonings than witchfires/maledictions which are more easily denied since he's likely to have psykers everywhere.
Etc...
Personnaly, most of the time I have 1 psyker only (Coteaz) and he's hanging in my backline with a thunderfire cannon. So I usually only roll on divination to get prescience for the cannon. Depending on the situation, I might roll one time on telepathy (for shriek mostly) or maybe sanctic.
If you have a librarius conclave in a deathstar, usually you're looking for powers like Endurance, Telepathy, Veil of Time, Hammerhand, etc... otherwise you might run them as a summoning battery and go for some Daemonology powers.
I'm trying to fine tune my bastion / hvy bolter / AA setup. Would like your opinions of a couple of things. (I haven't purchased a bastion yet, I want to figure out if it's going to be worth it)
Firstly, I'm not liking the idea of dropping one of my 3 Exos for a Ret squad. I currently only have 2 squads of melta Doms in Immos, so I feel like I want to hang on to my 3rd Exo. So heres what I'm thinking of running.
Naked Canoness
Command squad with 4 Hvy Bolters
Bastion with Ammo Dump and AA Lascannon
My reasoning here is, by taking the ammo dump, having the canoness manning the quad gun would be a bit of a waste. She'd be hitting on 2s, rerolling misses anyway. So I'd save some points by taking the AA lascannon over the quad gun. Whats your opinion of the effectiveness of the lascannon v quad gun? How do the stats add up? Would more glancing hits be better than fewer pens?
If I take the quad gun, and drop the ammo dump, the Hvy Bolters obviously don't benefit from rerolling 1s.
As far as I understand, 2 models can fire from each fire point, and each side of the bastion has 2 fire points (depending on how it's built). So taking a 5th Hvy bolter would be a waste, especially considering that 5th model would man the emplaced gun. Am I correct on this?
I've read somewhere that the emplaced gun can be manned from inside the bunker. Is this right?
Battlescibe calculates this to be 280pts. We get 5 Hvy Bolters that hit on 3s and reroll 1s. An AA lascannon that hits on 2s and rerolls 1s. All protected by AV14. This feels a bit pricey for what you get. What do you think?
Also, I'm up to page 129 of this thread. Mostly great stuff so far. It's awesome to see so many people loving the nuns with guns!
the_Jakman wrote: I'm trying to fine tune my bastion / hvy bolter / AA setup. Would like your opinions of a couple of things. (I haven't purchased a bastion yet, I want to figure out if it's going to be worth it)
My reasoning here is, by taking the ammo dump, having the canoness manning the quad gun would be a bit of a waste. She'd be hitting on 2s, rerolling misses anyway. So I'd save some points by taking the AA lascannon over the quad gun. Whats your opinion of the effectiveness of the lascannon v quad gun? How do the stats add up? Would more glancing hits be better than fewer pens?
Well, the quad hits on 6s most of the time. Rerolling misses. So the Canoness's BS is typically irrelevant. If she's in the building with the rets, she has to fire at the same target, so either the HBs are hitting on 6s against flyers and the QG is hitting on 2s, or they are hitting on ground targets on 3+ and the QG is hitting on 6s.
But as Petre said, I've never ran it any way than he posted, with the exception of the void shield if i have a spare 25 pts. 3 rounds of 15 rending str 5 shots can do some work.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Lots of great lists in the past couple pages here but I have a question:
It doesn't look like anyone ever takes any air units. How are you guys dealing with enemy air units?
Almost everything in sisters is melta and/or twin linked.
Your basic Immolator is more then capable of popping a flier if need be.
If you roll high enough on the exorcist it's also pretty easy to get a single six.
Point is, twin linked makes you basically hit a flier on a 5+, and if you have enough twin linked multi-meltas you should never have an issue killing fliers.
Plus, there are not a whole lot of vehicle fliers that are worrysome, I agree with the quad gun however if you expect to face flying hive tyrants and such.
pretre wrote: Okay, so here's the deal with bastion.
The preferred loadout is more like this:
6 Retributors with 4 HB and Simulacrum
Bastion with Ammo Dump
Uriah
You put the rets on 6 HB (2 from each fire point is 4 out one side and generally 2 emplaced HB can hit a single target).
The Ammo dump benefits everyone within range, so you put it within range of the Bastion and then put your Exorcists within range (terrain allowing).
The quad/icarus is optional, but you would put Uriah on it or one of the two other girls.
I am a little confused by what you are explaining here. I had assumed you were talking about putting the Ret squad IN the bastion (hence the 4 Girls shooting out ports, and 2 guys on emplaced HBs) but then you mentioned putting a girl on the quad gun...
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Lots of great lists in the past couple pages here but I have a question:
It doesn't look like anyone ever takes any air units. How are you guys dealing with enemy air units?
Almost everything in sisters is melta and/or twin linked.
Your basic Immolator is more then capable of popping a flier if need be.
If you roll high enough on the exorcist it's also pretty easy to get a single six.
Point is, twin linked makes you basically hit a flier on a 5+, and if you have enough twin linked multi-meltas you should never have an issue killing fliers.
Plus, there are not a whole lot of vehicle fliers that are worrysome, I agree with the quad gun however if you expect to face flying hive tyrants and such.
Thanks for the input. I guess you and I have different ideas of what "more than capable" means. I certainly wouldn't consider either the immo or the exo to be very capable at killing fliers. MathHammer against armor 12 zooming flyer (before jinking):
My list building is geared toward playing with a group of friends in a league/tourny style where we don't change our list between games; and there is a stormwolf and a couple razorwing jetfighters in the midst. So I'm either looking for something in Castellans that is good anti-air and still highly effective against ground, or deciding to completely ignore the air units. I was thinking about bringing 1-2 vendettas to zoom around for a couple turns shooting vehicles and then hover to objectives. But considering they are 170 points, it might be smarter to ignore the air and instead bring an exo + 45 points.
dakkasisterxoxo wrote: Lots of great lists in the past couple pages here but I have a question:
It doesn't look like anyone ever takes any air units. How are you guys dealing with enemy air units?
Almost everything in sisters is melta and/or twin linked.
Your basic Immolator is more then capable of popping a flier if need be.
If you roll high enough on the exorcist it's also pretty easy to get a single six.
Point is, twin linked makes you basically hit a flier on a 5+, and if you have enough twin linked multi-meltas you should never have an issue killing fliers.
Plus, there are not a whole lot of vehicle fliers that are worrysome, I agree with the quad gun however if you expect to face flying hive tyrants and such.
Thanks for the input. I guess you and I have different ideas of what "more than capable" means. I certainly wouldn't consider either the immo or the exo to be very capable at killing fliers. MathHammer against armor 12 zooming flyer (before jinking):
My list building is geared toward playing with a group of friends in a league/tourny style where we don't change our list between games; and there is a stormwolf and a couple razorwing jetfighters in the midst. So I'm either looking for something in Castellans that is good anti-air and still highly effective against ground, or deciding to completely ignore the air units. I was thinking about bringing 1-2 vendettas to zoom around for a couple turns shooting vehicles and then hover to objectives. But considering they are 170 points, it might be smarter to ignore the air and instead bring an exo + 45 points.
If using Castellans, go with either a Storm Talon or a Storm Hawk. Storm Hawk is best for anti-air IMO since it can have 10 S6+ shots a turn.
If using Castellans, go with either a Storm Talon or a Storm Hawk. Storm Hawk is best for anti-air IMO since it can have 10 S6+ shots a turn.
Hmm interesting ideas, but the Storm Talon is pretty uderpowered with just the TL assault cannon and typhoon missile launcher at 130 points and 11 front armor. The Storm Hawk has more damage potential at 145 points with TLAC, Typhoon ML, Las Talon, but its TLAC and Las Talon are both just 24 inch range and it can't hover. And they both have 2 HP. I think the Vendetta at 170 points with 3HP, hover, 48 inch range with 3 TLLC, front and side armor 12 stacks up quite nicely indeed, no?
If using Castellans, go with either a Storm Talon or a Storm Hawk. Storm Hawk is best for anti-air IMO since it can have 10 S6+ shots a turn.
Hmm interesting ideas, but the Storm Talon is pretty uderpowered with just the TL assault cannon and typhoon missile launcher at 130 points and 11 front armor. The Storm Hawk has more damage potential at 145 points with TLAC, Typhoon ML, Las Talon, but its TLAC and Las Talon are both just 24 inch range and it can't hover. And they both have 2 HP. I think the Vendetta at 170 points with 3HP, hover, 48 inch range with 3 TLLC, front and side armor 12 stacks up quite nicely indeed, no?
Against vehicles? Probably. Against FMCs? Not nearly as much. That's where you really want them.
I typically run Talons with the assault cannon and sky hammers so 115 points gets you 7 shots a turn. The range issues are mitigated by the speed of the flyers and the ability to reposition by going into reserves. The Hawk not being able to hover (and thus not score) is the real downside.
heracyangel wrote: I am a little confused by what you are explaining here. I had assumed you were talking about putting the Ret squad IN the bastion (hence the 4 Girls shooting out ports, and 2 guys on emplaced HBs) but then you mentioned putting a girl on the quad gun...
Stronghold assault changed the base rules to allow you to fire the gun from inside the bunker or on the battlements.
I seem to remember every time I did the math on dedicated AA units, it never seemed worth it if that list only faced flyers sometimes. Your own flyer that can also strike ground targets would work though.
So I am updating my painted and ready for battle numbers to offer them up for more list building in 7th from this august body of experts:
Canoness
Saint Celestine
Priests (x5)
Sisters Superior (x10)
Battle Sisters with Bolters (x37)
Battle Sisters with Melta Gun (x12)
Battle Sisters with Flamer (x4)
Battle Sister with Heavy Bolter (x4)
Battle Sisters with Storm Bolter (x3)
Battle Sisters with Heavy Flamer (x6)
Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis (x2)
Seraphim Superior (x2)
Seraphim with Hand Flamers (x4)
Seraphim (x14)
Repentia Mistress
Repentia (x7)
Hospitillar
Dialogus
Immolator (x3)
Rhino (x5)
Exorcists (x2)
Going to be facing Tau and Necrons and Space Marines over the next few months. 1500 point battles mostly.
Captain Brown wrote: So I am updating my painted and ready for battle numbers to offer them up for more list building in 7th from this august body of experts:
...
Cheers,
That's a great list from dakkasister. I'd maybe drop the HB Rets' Rhino in exchange for a Simulcrum and a bullet catcher or two, which will help against the 3+ saves and long range threats you'll be facing. Also consider giving at least one Immo to your Doms to scout them into range of the melta rule. Depending on how much high AV your listed opponents bring (Land Raiders, Monoliths), it might be useful.
I'd drop the rets rhino and use the 40 pts to make the 3 immos Repressors. I don't ever use rets unless the're in a building. Or, if you stick with Immos, give them to your dominions so when you go first you scout them up 12, move 6 on turn 1 and all of a sudden you're in melta range. The seraphim are usually underperforming units, but damned if I don't love them.
deviantduck wrote: I'd drop the rets rhino and use the 40 pts to make the 3 immos Repressors. I don't ever use rets unless the're in a building. Or, if you stick with Immos, give them to your dominions so when you go first you scout them up 12, move 6 on turn 1 and all of a sudden you're in melta range. The seraphim are usually underperforming units, but damned if I don't love them.
The list was built with Captain Brown's list of models he has ready and painted.
Rationale for putting Dominions in a rhino instead of immo: rhino has 2 fire points instead of 1, and this way your melta threats are more spread out, giving your opponent more issues with deciding what to shoot at, whereas an immo TLMM carrying dominions is the obvious higher priority.
btw Captain Brown if you don't have the new Celestine body guards maybe you can use the two Seraphim Superiors to represent them.
deviantduck wrote: I'd drop the rets rhino and use the 40 pts to make the 3 immos Repressors. I don't ever use rets unless the're in a building. Or, if you stick with Immos, give them to your dominions so when you go first you scout them up 12, move 6 on turn 1 and all of a sudden you're in melta range. The seraphim are usually underperforming units, but damned if I don't love them.
The list was built with Captain Brown's list of models he has ready and painted.
Rationale for putting Dominions in a rhino instead of immo: rhino has 2 fire points instead of 1, and this way your melta threats are more spread out, giving your opponent more issues with deciding what to shoot at, whereas an immo TLMM carrying dominions is the obvious higher priority.
btw Captain Brown if you don't have the new Celestine body guards maybe you can use the two Seraphim Superiors to represent them.
My bad. I missed the part where he said 'only build from this list'. Often my reading comprehension is that of an ork on meth.
I... I just really hate immolators.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also currently butthurt about no repressors in castellans for ITC.
I'm also currently butthurt about no repressors in castellans for ITC.
Not understanding. If you take your sisters units from AS, you can take Repressors for them, even if it is castellans. Or did they rule on this?
From the ITC 2017 FAQ:
"Does the Castellans of the Imperium allow the use of forgeworld models? Vendettas, etc.
No. You can only use the specific models listed in GSI: Fall of Cadia."
Which is confusing in itself because Vendetta from Codex Astra Militarum is specifically listed, unless there are forgeworld rules for Vendetta that I don't know about which they're referring to?
From the Castellans formation:
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet."
So does Codex Adepta Sororitas say Dominions can take Repressor as DT or is it just Imperial Armor 2 that says in Repressor can be taken as DT by Domions?
IA2 says that you can take it as a DT for any unit from C:AS. The Castellan FAQ is for taking things separately. I.e. you can't take repressors as FA choices for Castellans, but you can take them as DT.
Anpu-adom wrote: Hmm... Hadn't thought about the benefits of Rhinos for Dominions since I haven't converted my Repressors yet.
May switch up my purchases.
I only use the Rhinos. Staying mobile and reasonably aggressive is kind of a thing for Sisters of Battle. Rhinos or Repressors are the two I would still chooce, but Immolators got better, one must admit, with that firing point.
pretre wrote: IA2 says that you can take it as a DT for any unit from C:AS. The Castellan FAQ is for taking things separately. I.e. you can't take repressors as FA choices for Castellans, but you can take them as DT.
Ask your TO though.
It's pretty clear in Fall of Cadia under the Castellans formation.
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet. Each entry will include an abbreviated reference to the codex, publication or dataslate where their appropriate datasheet can be found, denoted as follows:
...
Codex: Adepta Sororitas - 'AS'
...
Codex: Imperial Agents - 'IA'
...
[next page] Dominion Squad (AS/IA)"
Neither of those datasheets mention Repressor as a DT. I don't see any way to rationalize how one could be brought, ITC or otherwise.
pretre wrote: IA2 says that you can take it as a DT for any unit from C:AS. The Castellan FAQ is for taking things separately. I.e. you can't take repressors as FA choices for Castellans, but you can take them as DT.
Ask your TO though.
It's pretty clear in Fall of Cadia under the Castellans formation.
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet. Each entry will include an abbreviated reference to the codex, publication or dataslate where their appropriate datasheet can be found, denoted as follows:
...
Codex: Adepta Sororitas - 'AS'
...
Codex: Imperial Agents - 'IA'
...
[next page] Dominion Squad (AS/IA)"
Neither of those datasheets mention Repressor as a DT. I don't see any way to rationalize how one could be brought, ITC or otherwise.
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet. Each entry will include an abbreviated reference to the codex, publication or dataslatewhere their appropriate datasheet can be found,denoted as follows: "
I read that as saying: GS1 has snippets you can use as references that point to the real, full, correct datasheet found in each codex/book/etc.
and IA2 says that the repressor is in the codex as a DT.
So... yea, granted I'm biased, but it doesn't seem to break the logic, not that I reread it.
deviantduck wrote: "You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet. Each entry will include an abbreviated reference to the codex, publication or dataslatewhere their appropriate datasheet can be found,denoted as follows: "
I read that as saying: GS1 has snippets you can use as references that point to the real, full, correct datasheet found in each codex/book/etc.
and IA2 says that the repressor is in the codex as a DT.
So... yea, granted I'm biased, but it doesn't seem to break the logic, not that I reread it.
Interesting points guys. Let's look at what IA2 says, per the Repressor page that Pretre posted a couple pages back:
"A Repressor is a Dedicated Transport choice for a Codex: Sisters of Battle army."
I think it would take a pretty lenient opponent/TO to grant that phrase as valid. I think there are 2 hurdles. 1: It doesn't actually say it adds anything to C:SoB. But you could argue the phrase is understood or interpreted to effectively add the Repressor to C:SoB (and thus by virtue of update C:AS). 2: The army in question is now a GS1:FoC Castellan's army rather than a SoB army. I don't know what I'd argue here.
So my buddy who is a frequent TO emailed ITC:
Sisters of Battle repressors are stated as dedicated transports for codex Sisters of Battle. Do these transports carry over into the Castellans formation?
Response:
You can only take units listed in the formation. Dedicated transports can be taken if a unit in the formation has access to the them.
Do units, like a Space Marine Captain on Bike, that change another units “type” still change that units type in a Castellans formation (e.g. White Scars bikes as troops?)
No.
While Adepticon says:
Characters that modify the Force Organization Slots apply their changes to units included in a Castellan detachment. For example, a Space Marine Captain on a bike will make bike units troop choices in a Castellan Detachment.
Do units, like a Space Marine Captain on Bike, that change another units “type” still change that units type in a Castellans formation (e.g. White Scars bikes as troops?)
No.
While Adepticon says:
Characters that modify the Force Organization Slots apply their changes to units included in a Castellan detachment. For example, a Space Marine Captain on a bike will make bike units troop choices in a Castellan Detachment.
FAST ATTACK:
Dominion Squad, 4x Melta-----105
Dominion Squad, 4x Melta-----105
DediTrans:Rhino------------------40
DediTrans:Rhino------------------40
Seraphim Squad, 2x hand F----95
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Exorcist-----------------------------125
Exorcist-----------------------------125
Retributor Squad, 4x HB-------100
DediTrans:Rhino-----------------40
Total---------------------------------1495
Thank you for the sample list dakkasisterxoxo. Interesting thoughts on Rhinos.
MacPhail wrote:That's a great list from dakkasister. I'd maybe drop the HB Rets' Rhino in exchange for a Simulcrum and a bullet catcher or two, which will help against the 3+ saves and long range threats you'll be facing. Also consider giving at least one Immo to your Doms to scout them into range of the melta rule. Depending on how much high AV your listed opponents bring (Land Raiders, Monoliths), it might be useful.
Welcome back to the Sisters scene!
Thanks MacPhail.
pretre wrote:Do you have any forts? Bastion, etc?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the Seraphim, I would drop them and take a blob of sisters with a few priests instead of a Seraph squad.
Sorry no Bastions or Forts.
Now I am working on 3 more Immolators as I am pretty well entirely old metal models. I may build a magnetized upgrade to make them Repressors if I so choose. My local group has always been afraid of including FW (until I walk them through the points you pay for FW models...but it seems to be something that must be agreed for every battle).
Great stuff as I have a list to play around with and generated some discussion on the Tactica. Now I need to dream up a conversion for the old Mark I Immolators...something more than just adding a Dozer Blade...
Out of curiosity, is there any good reason to take a CAD for sisters now, over a Castellans detachment with Coteaz? The benefits seem to hugely outweight the cost unless you're doing a tiny army. The only real downside I can see is that you don't get access to Fortifications, which does suck, but you get armywide Hatred, armywide ObjSec, and regenerating troops, for practically no tax - Coteaz is great in any army, and helps mitigate the sting of losing first turn to a Seize, and four troops over too isn't that bad for Sisters, who spam special and heavy weapons anyways.
I play with a cad, because I pair my sisters with Blood Angels who cannot be in the Castellans. Similarly, if you wanted to play with Grey Knights, Death Watch, Dark Angels or have a fortification you play with a CAD.
Coteaz and Celestine and a bunch of sisters is great (even just 4 MSUBSS), but you don't really have the points left over for much of anything.
pretre wrote: I played Castellans at an event and did really well, but I don't know that Castellans had much to do with that. I only regenned one unit all day.
Centurion star with Ignores Cover had a LOT to do with it. As did Celestine. Lol.
pretre wrote: I played Castellans at an event and did really well, but I don't know that Castellans had much to do with that. I only regenned one unit all day.
Centurion star with Ignores Cover had a LOT to do with it. As did Celestine. Lol.
Right, but I can get those things without taking Castellans. That's my point; nothing about castellans particularly made that a good list. It was a good list despite castellans.
The regen units in the castellans is a nice bonus, but not one you can count on and as such your list should not be built around it.
The reasons I take it are for Coteaz and Ob Sec accross all infrantry and that includes Celestine who makes an awesome objective grabber / holder. Hatred is also very nice. Mastercrafted on Celestine is nice, but hatred is just so much better to ensure she does not flub her attacks like crazy.
Flame is good. Adepta Sororitas are all about it. =) I think my list features 11 Flamers of various flavors and then has 16 Meltaguns floating around to accompany their Exorcist buddies. When you say that out loud, you kinda wonder: why AREN'T sisters better regarded? I dunno. It's a mystery. =)
On the down side, they do lack stuff like anti-air and they have to sit and set for charge against some nasty Wolfstars and other lists. Battle Companies are the big one. The Battle Company does most of what we would like to do a lot better because: Gravity weapons. Oh if only we could get free trasnports!
How do you get those numbers? In my 1850 list i got 10 meltas (8 in two dominion squads),two Multimeltas, two flamers and 3 Heavy Flamers one of which is the Saint's.Also 4 hand flamers...
konst80hummel wrote: How do you get those numbers? In my 1850 list i got 10 meltas (8 in two dominion squads),two Multimeltas, two flamers and 3 Heavy Flamers one of which is the Saint's.Also 4 hand flamers...
BSS 6 Woman with 2 Flamers in a TL-Multimelta Immolator
BSS 6 Woman with 2 Flamers in a TL-Multimelta Immolator
BSS 6 Woman with 2 Flamers in a TL-Multimelta Immolator
Dom Squad (5) with 4 Melta in a Rhino
Dom Squad (5) with 4 Melta in a Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
That comes to under 1200 points
Counts-
7 Flamers
11 Melta
I can add combi-flamers and combi-melta to sister superiors, but I'd rather not mod them.
My list: In a nutshell...
Saint Celestine, a Priest
6 girl Repentia squad
3 BS squads with Immolator w/ dozer. 5 girls w/Fl, HF, meltabombs.
2 squads of dominions(5) in a rhino with 4 MGs Seraphim (5) with two hand flamers
Exorcist
Penitent Engine
Retributors with 4 H.Bolters
The formation with a priest, arcoflagellants crusaders and Assassins.
konst80hummel wrote: My list: In a nutshell...
Saint Celestine, a Priest
6 girl Repentia squad 3 BS squads with Immolator w/ dozer. 5 girls w/Fl, HF, meltabombs.
2 squads of dominions(5) in a rhino with 4 MGs Seraphim (5) with two hand flamers
Exorcist
Penitent Engine Retributors with 4 H.Bolters
The formation with a priest, arcoflagellants crusaders and Assassins.
There's your problem.
I mean, if you're running some wackier stuff that would be why you have less meltas, etc.
Having suffered to drop pod grav centrions multiple times over the weekend, what is the current preferred way to deal with their alpha strike on tables that are low scenery?
Castling near Coteaz who is joined to a Presciened Enginseer Congregation with maximum Plasma Cannons?
Or meching up and dispersing.
Personally i keep repentias near things that would be prime targets so i can kill them on the counter charge. If they shoot the repentias then great. If not the repentias will mulch them.
konst80hummel wrote: Personally i keep repentias near things that would be prime targets so i can kill them on the counter charge. If they shoot the repentias then great. If not the repentias will mulch them.
Personally, I keep repentias unpainted and in the drawer.
konst80hummel wrote: Personally i keep repentias near things that would be prime targets so i can kill them on the counter charge. If they shoot the repentias then great. If not the repentias will mulch them.
Personally, I keep repentias unpainted and in the drawer.
konst80hummel wrote: Castling near Coteaz who is joined to a Presciened Enginseer Congregation with maximum Plasma Cannons?
Or meching up and dispersing.
Personally i keep repentias near things that would be prime targets so i can kill them on the counter charge. If they shoot the repentias then great. If not the repentias will mulch them.
I'll have to dig him out, my repentias can stay in the draw.
Personally i keep repentias near things that would be prime targets so i can kill them on the counter charge. If they shoot the repentias then great. If not the repentias will mulch them.
I prefer to have my Repentia do just this. So much easier than running across the table to find trouble when you know your opponent is looking to drop in to your back line. Minimum squads dont even cost that much. With 8ed changes, Repentia going first on the charge will be a grand sight indeed.
Yup my Sisters Repentia, despite all the doubt I get for using them, have done a number on so many valuable targets and Its like: Here's six targets you REALLY should try to kill..... Whose it gonna be? Cant kill em all!
So often the Meltaguns are targeted for the obvious reasons, but every now and again they will shoot the Repentia. I kind of win either way. Target saturation...up to this point, lets see what 8E brings... has always been a very sound strategy in general. Even when I played with three big blobs of Sisters (which won a lot, and I mean a LOT in 5th Edition) it was the same basic idea.
I am super curious to see how the Sisters Repentia will stack up in 8th. I own a lot of them so....
A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
Anpu-adom wrote: A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
I'm waiting to see what melta does...
"wise" players dont always have a choice. Consolidation, terrain and disembarkation are all examples but there are many times when Flamers simply are awesome and its more often than some people say. 8th will be a nerf to flamers in general. Having them more effective against armored targets is...odd.
I'd agree on the flamer nerf for squads that can bring only one plus a combi... being able to roll out 2, 4, or 5 with a combi should even out the rolling. You won't need to risk them up front, either... you can tuck them into the second rank. I'm very interested to see how Overwatch works, if at all.
Anpu-adom wrote: A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
I'm waiting to see what melta does...
"wise" players dont always have a choice. Consolidation, terrain and disembarkation are all examples but there are many times when Flamers simply are awesome and its more often than some people say. 8th will be a nerf to flamers in general. Having them more effective against armored targets is...odd.
We can't know if it's a nerf or a buff until we know how the rest of the system works. My bet is a side grade, slightly worse against hordes slightly better against small units.
Anpu-adom wrote: A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
I'm waiting to see what melta does...
"wise" players dont always have a choice. Consolidation, terrain and disembarkation are all examples but there are many times when Flamers simply are awesome and its more often than some people say. 8th will be a nerf to flamers in general. Having them more effective against armored targets is...odd.
We can't know if it's a nerf or a buff until we know how the rest of the system works. My bet is a side grade, slightly worse against hordes slightly better against small units.
D6 is D6. I dont think it bears saying that this is naturally less than you'd hit against a true horde. Thats pretty obvious. The actual game effect is to make a horde more effective which I like. However it is still factually just not really as cool. Average of 3.5. Thats nowhere close to what I have averaged since the day I started playing the game. Nowhere close so if the goal wasnt to nerf the flamer but instead empower the horde, it hit its mark and thats not entirely a bad thing.
Anpu-adom wrote: A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
I'm waiting to see what melta does...
"wise" players dont always have a choice. Consolidation, terrain and disembarkation are all examples but there are many times when Flamers simply are awesome and its more often than some people say. 8th will be a nerf to flamers in general. Having them more effective against armored targets is...odd.
We can't know if it's a nerf or a buff until we know how the rest of the system works. My bet is a side grade, slightly worse against hordes slightly better against small units.
D6 is D6. I dont think it bears saying that this is naturally less than you'd hit against a true horde. Thats pretty obvious. The actual game effect is to make a horde more effective which I like. However it is still factually just not really as cool. Average of 3.5. Thats nowhere close to what I have averaged since the day I started playing the game. Nowhere close so if the goal wasnt to nerf the flamer but instead empower the horde, it hit its mark and thats not entirely a bad thing.
I wish it was more consistent. Like 3+D3. The entire point of dropping points on a flamer is anti-horde.
Anpu-adom wrote: A wise player doesn't let you get a 'perfect spot'... 5 is the maximum I've ever gotten on a squad. 3-4 is more average (and average on a d6 is 3.5... so adequately models the template). As noted, it is much better against vehicles, monsters, and separate characters.
Will it suck to roll a 1? Sure. Will it be awesome to roll a 6? Hell Yes!
I'm waiting to see what melta does...
"wise" players dont always have a choice. Consolidation, terrain and disembarkation are all examples but there are many times when Flamers simply are awesome and its more often than some people say. 8th will be a nerf to flamers in general. Having them more effective against armored targets is...odd.
We can't know if it's a nerf or a buff until we know how the rest of the system works. My bet is a side grade, slightly worse against hordes slightly better against small units.
D6 is D6. I dont think it bears saying that this is naturally less than you'd hit against a true horde. Thats pretty obvious. The actual game effect is to make a horde more effective which I like. However it is still factually just not really as cool. Average of 3.5. Thats nowhere close to what I have averaged since the day I started playing the game. Nowhere close so if the goal wasnt to nerf the flamer but instead empower the horde, it hit its mark and thats not entirely a bad thing.
What if 3.5 hits is equivalent to 146 hits in the current system? What if flamers have a special rule where you now having dueling rights in your country of origin and are legally allowed to shoot your opponenet in the head? the point was no one knows exactly how these work yet and trying to to say firmly one way or another is just being silly.
So far it's pretty close to mirroring AoS. The psychic phase tomorrow is one of the few remaining wildcards. I fully expect to hear in the next few years: "Great news! You can now field any AoS army against any 40k army because they have the same ruleset!"
So, I have a tournament coming up: 1500 pts Grumpyman. (No formations, forge world, lords of war, fortifications, allies, one FoC only, fliers count as skimmers, and they're looking at no named characters)
Looking at joining mostly so I can have a few guaranteed game this month.
I'm looking at doing weapons spam for my sisters, A retributer squad, 3x SCS's, 3x dominions, 2x exorcists. Basically spam meltas, hvy bolters, and the such.
What is the opinion of using SCS's as weapon platforms? I know they have the small squad size, so what should I be looking at for hvy/spec weapons?
2? 4? 5?
Should I include a hospitaler? I know they won't get the FNP against most heavy weapons, but is it worth it against rapid fire weapons and such considering the small squad size and the fact that she could have been a heavy weapon instead?
You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat! This is going to make characters with pistols <cough-Cypher-cough> incredibly deadly up-close.
You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat! This is going to make characters with pistols <cough-Cypher-cough> incredibly deadly up-close.
Doesn't matter. You could shoot in every shooting phase too before, it was called Hit and Run.
I know everyone saw 'Pistols in CC' and got excited, but I think it is WAY too early to know that. Seraphim haven't been good in a LOOOOONG time and I don't see anything yet that changes that.
How hilarious would it be if SoB turn out to be totally broken in the new edition? Just seeing what the bandwagoners trot out trying to avoid the ridiculous cost of actually building a SoB army(and how difficult it can be to even find basic heavy weapons). Oh man, could you even imagine trotting up to a table at a tournament and seeing a guy unpacking Eldar, taking an exorcist out of your case and watching his shoulders slump and his eyes go flat...ahhhh sweet justice.
ERJAK wrote: How hilarious would it be if SoB turn out to be totally broken in the new edition? Just seeing what the bandwagoners trot out trying to avoid the ridiculous cost of actually building a SoB army(and how difficult it can be to even find basic heavy weapons). Oh man, could you even imagine trotting up to a table at a tournament and seeing a guy unpacking Eldar, taking an exorcist out of your case and watching his shoulders slump and his eyes go flat...ahhhh sweet justice.
That would be funny. But inevitably it wouldn't be the Exorcist or something we have several of that's OP.
It would be something entirely new [or at least uncommon], and hideously overpriced.
pretre wrote: I know everyone saw 'Pistols in CC' and got excited, but I think it is WAY too early to know that. Seraphim haven't been good in a LOOOOONG time and I don't see anything yet that changes that.
Agree, especially because it sounds like you get to shoot pistols in the subsequent shooting phase after being locked in combat and not during the fight sub-phase.
Pistols, no assault or rapid-fire weapons.
There have been several mentions of 'nearest unit'... which makes me wonder if you will need to take and pass leadership tests to shoot not-the-nearest unit... like in the old days.
ERJAK wrote: How hilarious would it be if SoB turn out to be totally broken in the new edition? Just seeing what the bandwagoners trot out trying to avoid the ridiculous cost of actually building a SoB army(and how difficult it can be to even find basic heavy weapons). Oh man, could you even imagine trotting up to a table at a tournament and seeing a guy unpacking Eldar, taking an exorcist out of your case and watching his shoulders slump and his eyes go flat...ahhhh sweet justice.
That would be funny. But inevitably it wouldn't be the Exorcist or something we have several of that's OP.
It would be something entirely new [or at least uncommon], and hideously overpriced.
That's the best part, everything they still sell retail is relatively common and cheap(relative to being a sisters of battle player) when you only need to pad out a force. So they could try to do the pay to won thing but they wouldn't be able to profit on it, only ebay would.
However, 7th got a fitting end for me. I won't be playing another game until 8th is out. I was at a GT in West Plains, MO last Saturday. I'm not sure if the rest of the world has been paying attention, but Missouri is underwater. The civic center the comic book convention/40k tourney was being held at lost power (as did the rest of the grid) and became a red cross shelter. A lot of the 40k tourney players were military, or ex military, and we ended up helping out and organizing it. Once the civic center started flooding it got moved up the hill to a church, but that's a long story in itself. Back to my original point: During my last game of 7th edition, the lights went out, and everyone lost.
ERJAK wrote: How hilarious would it be if SoB turn out to be totally broken in the new edition? Just seeing what the bandwagoners trot out trying to avoid the ridiculous cost of actually building a SoB army(and how difficult it can be to even find basic heavy weapons). Oh man, could you even imagine trotting up to a table at a tournament and seeing a guy unpacking Eldar, taking an exorcist out of your case and watching his shoulders slump and his eyes go flat...ahhhh sweet justice.
That would be funny. But inevitably it wouldn't be the Exorcist or something we have several of that's OP.
It would be something entirely new [or at least uncommon], and hideously overpriced.
That's the best part, everything they still sell retail is relatively common and cheap(relative to being a sisters of battle player) when you only need to pad out a force. So they could try to do the pay to won thing but they wouldn't be able to profit on it, only ebay would.
If we get something completely broken, it won't be something in the current lineup.
We keep asking for plastic, but if they do a sweeping release for us, you know it's not going to just be our regulars in plastic. One kit would cover Celestians, Dominions, Retributors, and Battle Sisters, really, and they could only set up to have overpriced Dominions/Retributor kits by starving the regular kit of special weapons. They already set up their 10-man sets to have terrible weapons loadouts so no matter what you have to buy $20 more to be WYSIWYG, so I wouldn't put it past them.
I use the way the IG got the Wyvern as proof. We wanted a plastic Griffon/Medusa/Colossus kit and Hydra kit. They gave us the plastic Hydra we wanted, and added in the Wyvern, which is, if I do say so myself, ridiculously good for its points cost and basically a must have for any guard army.
I guess here's the thing: We who play Sisters now already have all the things. If they made plastic kits of the entire lineup, we'd buy some of them because we like to have more things, but most of it would be bought by people starting the army. So, if/when they eventually do make us plastic models, they'll want to have something that we're going to buy, and they're going to want us to have to buy it if we want to remain "good". So sure, they can buff Celestians or something bad through the roof, or make the Exorcist even better than it is, but why would they, when they can make so much more money making something brand new and hilariously overpowered that both those of us who currently play Sisters and those who don't but want to and are turned off by the whole $100 per squad thing will have to buy in quantity.
I mean, I don't think we're going to get plastic figures any time soon as is. GW knows that 1: we're willing to buy metal figures at way-too-much-a-model, and 2: we're willing to buy them in large quantities. They'll release plastics when they think they can get new players to play Sisters. And when that happens, like all recent updates, it will come with being completely and utterly overpowered. But until then, they have no incentive to actually add anything to our lineup, and will just continue to charge us as much as possible.
I own...so...much...stuff for Sisters. Lol. I mean...its absurd.
Celestians would be an obvious one to make "better". and i think they also could easily re-imagine the Immolator. Obviously adding Sisters of Silence to the force would be neat.
Other than that, I think just making new players like them will be their goal.
ERJAK wrote: How hilarious would it be if SoB turn out to be totally broken in the new edition? Just seeing what the bandwagoners trot out trying to avoid the ridiculous cost of actually building a SoB army(and how difficult it can be to even find basic heavy weapons). Oh man, could you even imagine trotting up to a table at a tournament and seeing a guy unpacking Eldar, taking an exorcist out of your case and watching his shoulders slump and his eyes go flat...ahhhh sweet justice.
That would be funny. But inevitably it wouldn't be the Exorcist or something we have several of that's OP.
It would be something entirely new [or at least uncommon], and hideously overpriced.
That's the best part, everything they still sell retail is relatively common and cheap(relative to being a sisters of battle player) when you only need to pad out a force. So they could try to do the pay to won thing but they wouldn't be able to profit on it, only ebay would.
If we get something completely broken, it won't be something in the current lineup.
We keep asking for plastic, but if they do a sweeping release for us, you know it's not going to just be our regulars in plastic. One kit would cover Celestians, Dominions, Retributors, and Battle Sisters, really, and they could only set up to have overpriced Dominions/Retributor kits by starving the regular kit of special weapons. They already set up their 10-man sets to have terrible weapons loadouts so no matter what you have to buy $20 more to be WYSIWYG, so I wouldn't put it past them.
I use the way the IG got the Wyvern as proof. We wanted a plastic Griffon/Medusa/Colossus kit and Hydra kit. They gave us the plastic Hydra we wanted, and added in the Wyvern, which is, if I do say so myself, ridiculously good for its points cost and basically a must have for any guard army.
I guess here's the thing: We who play Sisters now already have all the things. If they made plastic kits of the entire lineup, we'd buy some of them because we like to have more things, but most of it would be bought by people starting the army. So, if/when they eventually do make us plastic models, they'll want to have something that we're going to buy, and they're going to want us to have to buy it if we want to remain "good". So sure, they can buff Celestians or something bad through the roof, or make the Exorcist even better than it is, but why would they, when they can make so much more money making something brand new and hilariously overpowered that both those of us who currently play Sisters and those who don't but want to and are turned off by the whole $100 per squad thing will have to buy in quantity.
I mean, I don't think we're going to get plastic figures any time soon as is. GW knows that 1: we're willing to buy metal figures at way-too-much-a-model, and 2: we're willing to buy them in large quantities. They'll release plastics when they think they can get new players to play Sisters. And when that happens, like all recent updates, it will come with being completely and utterly overpowered. But until then, they have no incentive to actually add anything to our lineup, and will just continue to charge us as much as possible.
I don't really agree, mostly because I doubt that many people actually buy sisters at retail, ebay and recasts are almost certainly the majority of SoB transactions. And the rest requires a sort of pessimism I don't really feel towards GW at the moment.
And definitely speak for yourself on the plastics, they come out with new plastic kits I drop 800-1000$ day one and put my metal, very lovingly, into storage forever.
pretre wrote: That's not how retail works. ILK is right. They need to make us want to buy the new stuff.
It's delusion to think otherwise. GW has a record of doing this as of late.
I latched onto the Wyvern as my example, because the 9125th doesn't leave base without one, but there are dozens more examples.
They introduced the Taurox and coincidentally increased the cost of the Chimera and deleted 3 firepoints. Coincidentally, the Taurox has an Autocannon instead of a Multilaser, which is, coincidentally a thing that was fairly desired for Chimerae, and costs fewer points!
They made a new plastic Broadside kit, and simultaneously nerfed the loadout that all the old Broadsides had, and conveniently made a new loadout that was really good. Really, the entire tau codex. The only models that were in my friends 5e Army that are still in his 7e Army are Fire Warriors. Instead of Railheads it's Tideline Rigs. There's Riptides and Missilesides, and the f****** Optimized Stealth Cadre full of Ghostkeels, and Stormsurges!
There's Daemon Summoning and splitting Horrors. There's the Wraithknight and Imperial Knights.
There's new Celestine!
If we ever get anything else really good in plastic, it's going to be something we don't have and can't make with our current model collections.
They already go out of their way to get as much money as they can from us. Look at how they sell our models now, if you haven't recently.
A "Battle Sisters Squad" comes with 6 Bolters, 1 Storm Bolter, 1 Meltagun, 1 Simulacrum, and 1 Sister Superior.
A "Dominions Squad" comes with 1 Meltagun, 1 Storm Bolter, 2 Flamers, and 1 Sister Superior.
A "Retributors Squad" comes with 4 Multimeltas, 5 Bolters, and 1 Sister Superior.
I don't know about you, but none of those look like loadouts I'd consider running.
So, you have to spend $80 on the squad box and another $20 on additional special weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:
I don't really agree, mostly because I doubt that many people actually buy sisters at retail, ebay and recasts are almost certainly the majority of SoB transactions. And the rest requires a sort of pessimism I don't really feel towards GW at the moment.
And definitely speak for yourself on the plastics, they come out with new plastic kits I drop 800-1000$ day one and put my metal, very lovingly, into storage forever.
I hate metal.
I actually like the metal figures [I like the weight and the look, but I wish I could pose them and there was more variety], but I would probably buy a bunch if they came out with plastics. If new Celestine and her Geminae are any indication, they'll look really nice. But that's besides the point.
The point is, they'll release plastics when they think new players will pick up Sisters, because that's how they stand to make the most money, and if we get anything really overpowered out of it, they'll make sure it's not something currently in our lineup so longtime players will have to buy 3 of them.
I may be cynical, but it's from experience.
Mr Morden wrote:indeed - I have hundreds of pounds reserved for plastic Sisters.
Although would hope to mix and match with the metal
We keep asking for plastic, but if they do a sweeping release for us, you know it's not going to just be our regulars in plastic. One kit would cover Celestians, Dominions, Retributors, and Battle Sisters, really, and they could only set up to have overpriced Dominions/Retributor kits by starving the regular kit of special weapons. They already set up their 10-man sets to have terrible weapons loadouts so no matter what you have to buy $20 more to be WYSIWYG, so I wouldn't put it past them.
Sisters are very expensive but are definitely not "overpriced". The fellows at The Long War thought the same when the new arrangements of squads came out. So they did some research. But it's not GW that is the problem here. The models are made of pewter, atm pewter is very expensive. As GW is a bussiness, they want to profit from sales. Therefor they have to crank up te price of squads in order to profit.
So YES, they are expensive but NO, they are not overpiced
Other than the hard to find meltas and some of the Made-to-Order kits, I have averaged less than $7.00 a model for my sisters. Granted, that was before the Fall of Cadia and the bump of prices. That puts me at the same range as a box of plastic specialist space marines (devastators, or the like). I got there by buying groups of them, rather than individually. Yes, I have some that I don't imagine using much... (eyeing a pair of stormbolters that I got alongside some other models I really wanted. Oh well. Maybe I'll end up using them in Shadow War Armeghedon.
We keep asking for plastic, but if they do a sweeping release for us, you know it's not going to just be our regulars in plastic. One kit would cover Celestians, Dominions, Retributors, and Battle Sisters, really, and they could only set up to have overpriced Dominions/Retributor kits by starving the regular kit of special weapons. They already set up their 10-man sets to have terrible weapons loadouts so no matter what you have to buy $20 more to be WYSIWYG, so I wouldn't put it past them.
Sisters are very expensive but are definitely not "overpriced". The fellows at The Long War thought the same when the new arrangements of squads came out. So they did some research. But it's not GW that is the problem here. The models are made of pewter, atm pewter is very expensive. As GW is a bussiness, they want to profit from sales. Therefor they have to crank up te price of squads in order to profit.
So YES, they are expensive but NO, they are not overpiced
I understand that pewter is expensive, and find the prices online tolerable. I find the issuing of what could be the worst possible loadout in a given squad set kind of annoying, but not that bad.
I was commenting on the fact that I think the plastic kits are fairly overpriced because they can be overpriced. Long Fangs are $10 less than a regular Devastator kit, and come with the same parts [less 2 Grav Cannons and 2 Multimeltas]. Grey Hunters cost $3 less than Tactical Marines, but come with a lot more bits and trinkets and parts and options [according to GW's website, there are 40 more unique components in a box of Grey Hunters than a box of Tactical Marines].
Next OP unit for us: Penitent Engines ! And I'm only half-joking here, all the changes we've seen so far are favorable to them while they wont be as easy to destroy anymore.
RabbitMaster wrote: Next OP unit for us: Penitent Engines ! And I'm only half-joking here, all the changes we've seen so far are favorable to them while they wont be as easy to destroy anymore.
Good for them, I guess, but I'm not actually sure. The dreadnought is only T7 3+, and will die to 50 marines shooting at it.
I don't know that that is a problem.
The problem with dreads last edition was that they would get immobilized and then be useless for the whole game. That doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.
RabbitMaster wrote: Next OP unit for us: Penitent Engines ! And I'm only half-joking here, all the changes we've seen so far are favorable to them while they wont be as easy to destroy anymore.
Good for them, I guess, but I'm not actually sure. The dreadnought is only T7 3+, and will die to 50 marines shooting at it.
Only 50 marines? That is half of an entire company... I think dreads will be fine.
50 marines, in their current state, is also 600+ points.
If someone is using that to kill a 100 points model, more power to me
I will admit I am a little unimpressed with the Leman Russ statistics posted by Reece, I expected the tank with 14 front armor to be a little bit more hard to kill. That means the Exorcists may end up being more fragile than we might want it to be.
Based on the Dreadnought stats I am expecting the Penitent engine to be:
M WSBS S T A W Sv 8 4+ 5+ 6 6 4 6 4+
If that end up being the case, I don't think they will be seeing the table given what we know so far. They would still be too fragile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And today's weapon updates just validated my investment into 5 of the canoness with the combi-flamer option. They are going to be soooo good now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah.
It also would mean that twin linked heavy flamers on immolators now roll 2d6 hits most like at str5 rend -1. They are going to be making a solid return to the tabletop.
For example, the Battle Cannon is 72" range, Heavy d6, Strength 8, AP -2, and d3 damage.
Based on that example, let's talk about the Exorcist.
Everything is basically the rockets on the exorcist! That will be huge. Discounting the matter of saves for a moment, it is an incredibly flat distribution... weighted a little more in the area of 4-6 wounds. But with a 5.6% Chance to score 18 up to wounds! Wow!
Twin-linked is going to just twice the number of shots... makes sense, and Tau are going to take a bit of a hit. (See a trend of limiting rerolls... maybe?!?!)
You can shoot either profile of the combi-weapon in any turn... or take a penalty of -1 to hit to shoot both. This is super cool, and I am really hoping for a plastic Veteran Sisters box to get some combi-weapons out of!
For example, the Battle Cannon is 72" range, Heavy d6, Strength 8, AP -2, and d3 damage.
Based on that example, let's talk about the Exorcist.
Everything is basically the rockets on the exorcist! That will be huge. Discounting the matter of saves for a moment, it is an incredibly flat distribution... weighted a little more in the area of 4-6 wounds. But with a 5.6% Chance to score 18 up to wounds! Wow!
Twin-linked is going to just twice the number of shots... makes sense, and Tau are going to take a bit of a hit. (See a trend of limiting rerolls... maybe?!?!)
You can shoot either profile of the combi-weapon in any turn... or take a penalty of -1 to hit to shoot both. This is super cool, and I am really hoping for a plastic Veteran Sisters box to get some combi-weapons out of!
Considering the Exorcist is AP1, it will probably be -4.
With regards to the probability distribution, I just plotted it out [didn't include to-hits yet]. It makes a very nice looking curve, averaging around 11 wounds. It has a slight left-skew. It will come down some accounting for to-hits
Based on the lascannon and the battle cannon, my guess is as follows:
Exorcist Missile Launcher: Range 48", Heavy D6 shots, Str 8,AP -4, Damage 1, (and i'm willing to bet they get the melta rule since it's not over the top in this edition.)
Until SB sisters turn out to be super awesome, I'll consider myself lucky to have only acquired two of them. I was going to convert them to another weapon, but I guess I'll hold off for the moment in case I need them as a sergeant upgrade.
I've been using my inferno pistols to make Combi-meltas, still have a few left, but I'm wondering if I should be saving them for characters and seraphim considering the proposed change to pistol rules.
AHHH, combi weapons AND pistols both sound great! Especially against things like dreadnoughts trying to tie up squads.
Well there was a time when you really could walk a horde of sisters forward and a 24 inch two shot bolter on the move was pretty cool. Not to mention that the power curve was nothing like it is now, so STR 4, AP 5 weapons meant something at that point.
they use to ONLY sell the Special weapons in two packs and it was like, a Stormbolter sister and a Melta so you had to buy more packs ot get the stinking meltas. Given that, you saw a lot more Storm Bolter sisters.
The original sister box set used to contain a flamer, a stormbolter and a chainsword / plasma pistol sergeant.
Every veteran collector is going to easilly have 5+ stormbolters lying around given how cheap those boxes were compared to now.
Stormbolters should be free upgrades for celestians, battle sisters and command squads.
All members of dominions and retributors should have the option to replace the bolter to a stormbolter for free and then have their other appropriately costed options to upgrade their weapons.
I have never fielded a single one of my stormbolter. I might not field them even if they were free, but at least the option would be there.
If they want to truely want to make the weapon interesting in 8th edition it needs to go somewhat in this direction:
range 24, assault 2, str 4, rend -1
If they do not drastically make a change to it, it doesnt matter how low it will be costed, it will likely never be fielded in lieu of a meltagun or flamer.
I've been so ally heavy the last couple years it's going to be weird to play straight sisters again. There's still so many questions. It also looks like if we have any ways to deepstrike, we can never do so within melta range.
While I think that 'straight' armies will be viable, I don't think you'll actually see all that many. IT will depend on how useful command points end up being, but Imperial armies made from 2-3 sets of keywords will probably stay the norm.
I don't think I've had a list that didn't have an Inquisitor in it since the Inquisiton codex came out back in 6th. I don't really expect this to change.
I've found that running a bunch of detachments isn't all that efficient, though. The only thing I've really been able to do and be effective is to have an allied Armoured Battlegroup, which sticks on well to any list and generally pulls its weight okay, and that's because the things I'm taking it for are in the HQ and Troop slots.
Solo Celestine
M 12
WS 2+
BS 3+
S 5
T 5
W 8
A 5
LD 10
SV 2+, and a save that can never be reduced past a 4+
So, not as good as Robbie G in the Blastic Skills, Strength and Toughness, and Number of wounds. She can move faster because she drinks Red Bull (has wings).
I wonder if she will have her body guards in unit... that would certainly be possible in the new rules, though she wouldn't get the protection against shooting that a single character would have if she was a part of a unit. If that is the case, I don't think that we will ever see mixed armor saves or mixed toughness in the same unit again (to be honest, it was quite the pain for wound allocation... a complication that can easily be dropped.
If she does have her body guards... then their stats are in the parenthesis.
Team Celestine
M 12
WS 2+ (3+)
BS 3+ (3+)
S 5 (3)
T 3 (3)
W 8 (2)
A 5 (2)
LD 10 (10)
SV 3+ (3+) With another save that cannot be reduced below 4+
The Armor of Saint Katherine confers a 2+, but otherwise, that looks pretty good.
I doubt she'll have 8 wounds base though, considering she comes back from the dead, and other infantry multiwound people don't look like they're going up drastically in wounds.
The Armor of Saint Katherine might not be a 2+ save in the next book. It could be something else.
You are right, probably a bit lower on the wounds total.
Anpu-adom wrote: The Armor of Saint Katherine might not be a 2+ save in the next book. It could be something else.
You are right, probably a bit lower on the wounds total.
Why would it not? Everything so far looks like its been transcribed fairly as-is, with the only real changes being wound counts.
Celestine seems as if she will be pretty well what she is now. Potentially more wounds but I mean... As long as Power From Pain is handing out Ressurections, I think she'll have hers too. So I expect no big shake up with her. I will however predict that the Sisters of Battle in general could see some shakeups.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Jancoran wrote: Celestine seems as if she will be pretty well what she is now. Potentially more wounds but I mean... As long as Power From Pain is handing out Ressurections, I think she'll have hers too. So I expect no big shake up with her. I will however predict that the Sisters of Battle in general could see some shakeups.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Probably leave them as is, too.
It would require someone to notice that they have a CQC orient act of faith but don't actually have close combat weapons, and then someone to care enough to fix them.
Maybe they can at least get chainswords, so they can use that Furious Charge with something other than their fists.
We've already got Dominions and Retributors for our heavy and special weapons teams, so it would be nice if maybe the Celestians could get power weapons. Or really anything to make them worthwhile.
What are the odds that AoFs get rolled into the command point mechanic? I could see a shooty one, a choppy one, an armor one, and a morale one listed for the whole army to be used as the player sees fit. That feels like a fit for 8th and frankly more useful than having them tied to unit types like 7th.
MacPhail wrote: What are the odds that AoFs get rolled into the command point mechanic? I could see a shooty one, a choppy one, an armor one, and a morale one listed for the whole army to be used as the player sees fit. That feels like a fit for 8th and frankly more useful than having them tied to unit types like 7th.
I sure as hell hope not.
While it would be nice to go back to having faith points, I don't want to have to give up the first turn and all the other stratagems in order to use one of my army's core functions.
MacPhail wrote: What are the odds that AoFs get rolled into the command point mechanic? I could see a shooty one, a choppy one, an armor one, and a morale one listed for the whole army to be used as the player sees fit. That feels like a fit for 8th and frankly more useful than having them tied to unit types like 7th.
I sure as hell hope not.
While it would be nice to go back to having faith points, I don't want to have to give up the first turn and all the other stratagems in order to use one of my army's core functions.
So maybe just a single special rules per unit then. They certainly seem to be cooking down to a couple of basic rules sructures.
That's true. But now that vehicles, MCs, and infantry all share a profile, everything has been converted to target rolls and modifiers, the data sheet is the go to place for every unit's rules, and everyone uses the same detachments, are we still thinking that the Adepta Sororitas will get a unique army wide game mechanism for Acts of Faith? I wouldn't be surprised if they didnt.
Jancoran wrote: Celestine seems as if she will be pretty well what she is now. Potentially more wounds but I mean... As long as Power From Pain is handing out Ressurections, I think she'll have hers too. So I expect no big shake up with her. I will however predict that the Sisters of Battle in general could see some shakeups.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Probably leave them as is, too.
It would require someone to notice that they have a CQC orient act of faith but don't actually have close combat weapons, and then someone to care enough to fix them.
Maybe they can at least get chainswords, so they can use that Furious Charge with something other than their fists.
We've already got Dominions and Retributors for our heavy and special weapons teams, so it would be nice if maybe the Celestians could get power weapons. Or really anything to make them worthwhile.
The thing thats hard (and that is also their own stupid fault) is that it's not like they have a huge number of options for what kind of equipment SoB models can take and so they've got to make 5 different units that all have the same 6 weapon options different. I wouldn't be surprised if we can totally tell which unit was designed last. 'Uhhhh this one get +1 attack on tuesdays, now shut up and ship it!'
Jancoran wrote: Celestine seems as if she will be pretty well what she is now. Potentially more wounds but I mean... As long as Power From Pain is handing out Ressurections, I think she'll have hers too. So I expect no big shake up with her. I will however predict that the Sisters of Battle in general could see some shakeups.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Probably leave them as is, too.
It would require someone to notice that they have a CQC orient act of faith but don't actually have close combat weapons, and then someone to care enough to fix them.
Maybe they can at least get chainswords, so they can use that Furious Charge with something other than their fists.
We've already got Dominions and Retributors for our heavy and special weapons teams, so it would be nice if maybe the Celestians could get power weapons. Or really anything to make them worthwhile.
The thing thats hard (and that is also their own stupid fault) is that it's not like they have a huge number of options for what kind of equipment SoB models can take and so they've got to make 5 different units that all have the same 6 weapon options different. I wouldn't be surprised if we can totally tell which unit was designed last. 'Uhhhh this one get +1 attack on tuesdays, now shut up and ship it!'
Unless Celestians are the one new model they drop.
MacPhail wrote: That's true. But now that vehicles, MCs, and infantry all share a profile, everything has been converted to target rolls and modifiers, the data sheet is the go to place for every unit's rules, and everyone uses the same detachments, are we still thinking that the Adepta Sororitas will get a unique army wide game mechanism for Acts of Faith? I wouldn't be surprised if they didnt.
Well, will Imperial Guard have a unique mechanism for orders? Or will AdMech get a unique mechanism for Canticles? Or Necrons get Reanimation Protocols?
If it doesn't cost command points to activate First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!, it shouldn't cost command points to activate Light of the Emperor.
MacPhail wrote: That's true. But now that vehicles, MCs, and infantry all share a profile, everything has been converted to target rolls and modifiers, the data sheet is the go to place for every unit's rules, and everyone uses the same detachments, are we still thinking that the Adepta Sororitas will get a unique army wide game mechanism for Acts of Faith? I wouldn't be surprised if they didnt.
Well, will Imperial Guard have a unique mechanism for orders? Or will AdMech get a unique mechanism for Canticles? Or Necrons get Reanimation Protocols?
If it doesn't cost command points to activate First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!, it shouldn't cost command points to activate Light of the Emperor.
That's a solid point. I'm hoping for some of that complexity and individuality. I guess there's room for some optimism. By which I mean do not screw this up, GW. The Adepta Sororitas has been overdue for a competitive edition.
MacPhail wrote: That's true. But now that vehicles, MCs, and infantry all share a profile, everything has been converted to target rolls and modifiers, the data sheet is the go to place for every unit's rules, and everyone uses the same detachments, are we still thinking that the Adepta Sororitas will get a unique army wide game mechanism for Acts of Faith? I wouldn't be surprised if they didnt.
Well, will Imperial Guard have a unique mechanism for orders? Or will AdMech get a unique mechanism for Canticles? Or Necrons get Reanimation Protocols?
If it doesn't cost command points to activate First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!, it shouldn't cost command points to activate Light of the Emperor.
That's a solid point. I'm hoping for some of that complexity and individuality. I guess there's room for some optimism. By which I mean do not screw this up, GW. The Adepta Sororitas has been overdue for a competitive edition.
More precisely, if the detachments we've seen are anything to go by, there aren't that many CP's to go around. The large detachment only gives 12. Even if Orders and Acts only cost 1 CP each, not all my units will be getting one, and I won't be getting any other stratagems.
So I sincerely hope that Faith, Orders, and any other army special function isn't tied to command points. Sisters need their Acts, Guardsmen need their Orders.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Rename the Sororitas Command Squad as "Celestian Squad" and increase the unit size to 5-10.
Give their wargear a point decrease to account for the S3 or 8ed it to somehow account for a stronger models wargear not being as valuable on a weaker model.
Give all Sisters squads Repressors as a transport option from 8ed launch.
SORRY, didn't see the WILL DO in that sentence.
GW will look upon the Sisters players and become disgusted by many of their number, lets call them wannabe's, and their cries for the impurity of plastic. They will grow angry, and make Celestian squads a requirement for fielding a Sisters army along with Repentia and then PenEngines. Then make all three much much worse, and far more expensive to purchase. Then GW will laugh at the wannabe SoB players, point and laugh and then fall from their chairs laughing. Only when the SoB players have purged their ranks of those crying for plastic will Celestians be fixed. But they will always be metal.
Question for the day: Celestians and what they will do with them. Discuss!
Rename the Sororitas Command Squad as "Celestian Squad" and increase the unit size to 5-10.
Give their wargear a point decrease to account for the S3 or 8ed it to somehow account for a stronger models wargear not being as valuable on a weaker model.
Give all Sisters squads Repressors as a transport option from 8ed launch.
SORRY, didn't see the WILL DO in that sentence.
GW will look upon the Sisters players and become disgusted by many of their number, lets call them wannabe's, and their cries for the impurity of plastic. They will grow angry, and make Celestian squads a requirement for fielding a Sisters army along with Repentia and then PenEngines. Then make all three much much worse, and far more expensive to purchase. Then GW will laugh at the wannabe SoB players, point and laugh and then fall from their chairs laughing. Only when the SoB players have purged their ranks of those crying for plastic will Celestians be fixed. But they will always be metal.
o...kaaaaay... LOL. Bitter! Table for one! Bitter!
o...kaaaaay... LOL. Bitter! Table for one! Bitter!
Not bitter about GW, just a little over run with local players saying that 8ed will see plastic SoB day one. Hoping that we don't just because I don't want them to suddenly hoin the team. GW is fine, SoB are fine, the wannabe plastic SoB so hard players I could really do without.
o...kaaaaay... LOL. Bitter! Table for one! Bitter!
Not bitter about GW, just a little over run with local players saying that 8ed will see plastic SoB day one. Hoping that we don't just because I don't want them to suddenly hoin the team. GW is fine, SoB are fine, the wannabe plastic SoB so hard players I could really do without.
I doubt it. Maybe some day, eventually, but not day one.
So, no clear Adepta Sororitas association with the new codex previews... I assume we are reduced to being Imperial Agents again? That seems most likely, at least.
MacPhail wrote: So, no clear Adepta Sororitas association with the new codex previews... I assume we are reduced to being Imperial Agents again? That seems most likely, at least.
pretre wrote: We're in the Imperium books, obv. Just like there's no separate SM book.
Obviously. But the cover is labeled "Imperial Agents", which is a bit annoying when the Legion of the Damned, who have like 1 single unit, get their own callout on the Space Marine book. I'm fine though.
Really? Because the front of the book doesn't say Sisters? I'm going to go back to worrying about my sweet, sweet, repressors and if they get the shaft or not.
deviantduck wrote: Really? Because the front of the book doesn't say Sisters? I'm going to go back to worrying about my sweet, sweet, repressors and if they get the shaft or not.
They are not on sale at the moment so I think they will be gone :(
I'll have to dig around, but there was a tweet about OOP forgeworld models. I thought that the source said the Forgeword was working on rules for everything. *shrug* I don't know.
deviantduck wrote: I think this is the part where through tears I half halfheartedly beat you on the chest with my fists while you hug me saying 'its not your fault'.
I'm actually going to perform this scene at my GW on release day.
I'm not despondent over this, just annoyed. It would have been very reassuring to get an A-list billing on the cover, like 8th will really be the great equalizer and we won't have to play from behind anymore. As it is, I feel like we're still on the back burner. Are we really not among the top thirteen most noteworthy Imperial factions?
deviantduck wrote: I think this is the part where through tears I half halfheartedly beat you on the chest with my fists while you hug me saying 'its not your fault'.
I'm actually going to perform this scene at my GW on release day.
I'm not despondent over this, just annoyed. It would have been very reassuring to get an A-list billing on the cover, like 8th will really be the great equalizer and we won't have to play from behind anymore. As it is, I feel like we're still on the back burner. Are we really not among the top thirteen most noteworthy Imperial factions?
Yeah, that's why I'm disappointed in being "Imperial Agents",
Couldn't they have written "Inquisition * Sisters of Battle"?
Sisters of Battle are one of those factions that many people care a lot about. So are you concerned about what will happen to them in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000? I am, so lets see what in store for Sisters fans everywhere.
While this is not out yet, it comes from a good source who has been obviously waiting for Sisters of Battle to come back and be good. There is a review of what he read afterwards, and is of course his own opinion (since I have not yet seen any of this personally) at this point of the game.
via sent in from someone who apparently has seen the new Index.
Hey, as Sisters of Battle are the only force worth mentioning here are some
changes made to the army:
The Sisters have been "half split" into 2 parts: Adeptus Ministorum and
Adepta Sororitas
Units have a "Order" key word, this keyword represents the name
of your Order (Chapter for you Spheezee Mehreene players) and can be
changed to whatever you like. Example would be "Order of Expensive Metal
Models We WANT PLASTIC!". This would change the Canoness Lead the
Righteous ability to say "You can re-roll all hit rolls of 1 for
friendly Order of Expensive Metal Models We WANT PLASTIC! units within
6" of this model.
Acts of Faith
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit
from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of
Faith chosen from the following list. Som abilities may allow you to use
more than on Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a
different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.
First glance impressons: We are back to the White Dwarf of uselessness
with an Act of Faith system that does not scale with larger armies.
1D6 per 500pts (whatever that is in power points) would be better or
with the new acts of faith allowing a unit to use any of them once per game.
An army ability should be powerful and represent the army, one unit per
turn out of 5 is decent, one out of 10 is meh and beyond is bad.
You can do more than one AoF per turn though, more on this later.
Hand of the Emperor: The unit can immediately move as if it were the
Movement phase.
Divine Guidance: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the
Shooting phase.
The Passion: The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit,
immediately pile in and attack as if it were the Fight phase.
Spirit of the Martyr: One model in the unit recovers D3 lost wounds, or
you can return a single slain model to the unit with 1 wound remaining.
First glance impressions: Interesting but very lacking, Divine Guidance
is the new Twin-Linked and The Passion seems pretty meh/useless to be
honest (haven't played a game though nor read the full rulebook yet. Got
that next to me and will flip through it tonight.)
I would have liked to see one that gives +1 To Hit with all attacks
until your next turn, or all attacks auto hit for this turn.
Divine Intervention could have been all models get an Invulnerable save
equal to their armor save like they had in 3E Witch Hunter codex or even
make it so no attack could lower the armor save of models in the unit
for a game turn.
The Passion could have been a unit can move D6 and if within 1" of enemy
models charge them.
Hand of the Emperor could have been good for assault if transports had
the Acts of Faith ability, then you could move the vehicle and then
during your movement phase disembark and later assault.
Shield of Faith: 6+ Inv save and can deny one psychic power in each
enemy psychic phase in the same manner as a psyker but on D6 instead of 2D6.
Zealot: re-roll failed to hit rolls in a turn which the unit charged,
made a heroic intervention or was charged by an enemy unit.
Uriah Jacobus: 5power
4++
Banner of Sanctity: +1Ld to ministorum and AM units within 6"
All Priests
4++
M6"
War Hymns: You can add 1 to the Attack characteristics of all friendly
Ministorum and astra militarum infantry within 6" of any friendly
ministorum priest.
Crusaders: 1power for 2 models, 5power for 10
M6" WS3 S3 A2
Zealot
Acts of Faith: This is new
Death Cult Assassins: 1power for 2, 5 for 10
M7" WS3 S4 A4
5+ 5++
Zealot
Death Cult Power blades are AP -2, power swords are -3 which they do NOT
have anymore
Arco-Flagellants
M7" WS3 S4 A2
7+5++
Zealot
Arco flails: +1S and D3 attacks instead of 1. So this means 2D3 for each
Arco at S5 - They could have just made the model S5 unless this is
future proofing for plastic Arco-Flagellants with other weapon options.
Penitent Engine: 6power for 1, 18 for 3
M7" WS3 S5 T6 W7 A4 Ld8 4+
Zealot
Desperate for Redemption: Roll a D6 after completing the first set of
attacks for units of Penitent Engines in each Fight phase. On a roll of
4+, the unit can immediately pile in and attack for a second time.
Penitent Buzz-Blades S2x Ap-3 Damage 3
First glance impressions: Pretty good from the look of things. Got to
love Desperate for Redemption. Does this prove GW reads dexes sent to
them? I read a wishlisting dex by MadCowCrazy and it had an ability with
the exact same name for the Penitent Engine and Sisters Repentia though
it basically forced them to deploy and scout move as close to the
opponent as possible during setup.
Adepta Sororitas section
Fluff notice: "So it was that the Sisters of Battle were recruited by
the millions, their orders rising from the flames of cataclysm (age of
apostasy) that saw the Imperium all but devour itself.
For those that don't know GW killed of 99.999999% of all sisters in an
earlier Sisters codex, stating that there were just the primary orders
and they contained some 10 000 sisters each and nothing else. So sisters
have gone from millions to less than 100,000 and now back to millions.
Technically it should be billions but GW and numbers....
Celestine: 8power +3 per geminae of 2 max
12" 2+2+3+3+7 6 9 2+ 4++
Bacon of Faith: +1 Shield of Faith Inv 6" bubble, Astra militarum and
ministorum gain 6+ inv save. Yeah yeah, it's Beacon of Faith but she is
just so delicious.
The Armour of Saint Katherine: 4++ for her and Geminae
Saintly Blessings: Unit within 6+ can perform an Act of Faith.
Healing Tears: Resurrect 1 geminae at start of each movement phase
Miraculous Intervention: Resurrection of Celestine once per game with
full wounds.
Canoness:4 points
6" 2+ 2+ 3 3 5 4 9 3+4++
Now has Rosarius as standard
Lead the Righteous mentioned above
Can't take jump pack
Imagifier: 2pts
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
AoF, SoF (Shield of Faith)
Simulacrum Imperialis: D6 start of turn on 4+ unit within 6" can perform
Act of Faith
First glance impressions: This is GWs "fix" to the problem of Acts of
Faith not scaling with larger armies. You basically need to spam these
models around and pray you roll a 4+. Doesn't this turn Sisters into a
gunline army instead of a mid/close shooty army?
Hospitaller: 2pts
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 4 2 8 3+
Chirurgeons tools S user -1AP
Aof, SoF
Healer: End of movement. Adepta Sororitas Infantry unit within 3", roll
D6. On 4+ one model recovers D3 lost wounds (IG medipack recovers 1
wound), if no wounded 1 slain model can be returned to the unit with 1
wound. A unit can only be targeted once per turn.
Battle Sisters: 4pts per 5 up to 15
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before, so no benefit in taking more than 5 models because you
can only take 2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per unit instead of per 5
models.
Seraphim: 4pts per 5 up to 10
12" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before
Celestian: 5pts per 5 up to 10
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 3+
2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per UNIT
Bodyguard: Character within 3" transfers a wound to unit on 2+, this
wound becomes a Mortal Wound
Mistress of Repentance: 2pts
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
Neural Whips S User, -2AP Damage1 Add 1 to the wound rolls for attacks
made with this weapon if the target unit's highest LD is less than 8
excluding vehicles. Does this mean the attack does +1Damage, +1 damage
dice or do you get +1 on to wound rolls?
Driven Onwards: re-roll advance, charge and hit rolls for friendly
Repentia within 6" of this model.
Repentia Squad:3 per 3 up to 9
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 7+
Penitent Eviscerator SX2 -2AP Damage 2 -1 To Hit
So their Eviscerator is worse than a normal one with -4AP
Aof, SoF
Retributor Squad: 6pts +4 for 5more models
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before, max 4 heavy weapons per unit so no point taking more models.
Aof, SoF
Dominion: 5 + 4 for 5 more models
Same as above but 4 special weapons
AoF, SoF
Vanguard: After deployment, before first turn, move as in movement
phase. If all models inside transport has this rule then transport may
move instead.
Canoness is Move 6" WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4 LD9 Save 3+4++
My fav so far - I like the idea she is rushing around - healing at the end of each move phase
Hospitaller: 2pts
Move 6" WS 4+ BS 3+ S3 T3 W4 A2 LD8 3+
Chirurgeons tools S user -1AP
Aof, SoF
Healer: End of movement. Adepta Sororitas Infantry unit within 3", roll D6. On 4+ one model recovers D3 lost wounds (IG medipack recovers 1 wound), if no wounded 1 slain model can be returned to the unit with 1
wound. A unit can only be targeted once per turn.
AOF is still somewhat frustrating - but it is synergy based fitting for this edition
Crusaders with AOF
Celestins act as bodyguards with wound transference
Repentia get a crap Eviscerator :(
Penitent Egines are interesting
If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.
Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?
Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.
Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.
Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?
Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.
Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.
You're just straight up wrong. The new AoFs are insane, especially with how ridiculously brutal penitent engines are.
Firstly, celestine is guaranteed a first turn charge every game (from space marine leaks jumppacks give the standard 9"deepstrike and she can AoF herself into auto succeed range.) Use one on penitent enines and they can move an average of 20" per turn and still shoot their heavy flamers, or move 14" and charge. You can also use them to get around the 'disembark before you move' thing AND still get double shooting for the unit that pops out. Penitent engines can get 4 rounds of attacks per turn with their special ability(as I read it) WITH NO CHANCE AT BEING COUNTER ATTACKED THAT TURN.
Yeah, celestine at least 2 imagifiers are pretty much mandatory but holy gak is there so much cool stuff we can do with even just 2-3 per turn.
So basically "your normal units are useless, don't even bother" again. Lame.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though I will say, I'm glad Celestians had their to-hit buffed to 3+. That along with a Canoness nearby to let them reroll 1s means that, while they're not close combat specialists, at least they can hold their own against anything that isn't an assault unit. So that's something I guess...
If we start assuming those rumors are true ( we might as well have fun since there's nothing else to work with right now) those act of faiths, while generic, are very powerful.
You get one by rolling a 2+ on a d6 for any unit. You seem to get another one from Celestine, likely by rolling a 2+ again. You get more by adding imagifiers, but these are on 4+ rolls.
Nothing indicates that a unit can only use an act of faith once per game.
You could have Celestine moving 24 inches every turn as long as she rolls that 2+. Or shoot or attack twice. Or resurrect her second Geminae (assuming they both died) or heal herself d3 wounds.
You could deepstrike Seraphims and Celestine. Use AoF on both of them and get within flamer and charge range on the turn they drop. You could also keep them back and use them late game to grab objectives as they move 24 inches to get on an objective.
Something else I am liking:
20 Sisters in cover is 180 points.
Give them an Eviscerator Canoness and an Imagifier and you are pushing this to 287 points.
On 4+, 2+ if you are not using your AoF elsewhere, you are putting out 80 shots within 12 inches. Hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s. That is a lot of fire output.
If you get this squad charged, the Canoness can heroic intervention in. She hits on 2s , re-rolling 1s with her Eviscerator. Wounds most infantry on 2s or 3s, and on a 2+ or 4+ AoF could possibly use "The Passion" to get 8 of those attacks in. That would put the hurt on a lot of assault squads. For added fun, use those Command points to break his attack order and make sure she gets the jump on your opponent's assault squad.
The odds of pengine getting acts of Faith I imagine will be pretty much zero. They'll be full of promise but unable to get anywhere and delegated to dust collection on shelf or as rear guard.
Though sisters have always been the army to make lemonade out of lemons.
First of all, I'm inclined to wait until someone posts something irrefutable, but these do seem in line with other previews.
Whatever we make of AoFs and other special rules like the Dominion's vanguard ability, it seems like costs have come down. Weren't Battle Sisters 12 points each? Space Marines are still 13 each, but if that preview is legit, Sisters are 9 each and costs are down across the board. Specials and Heavies are have gone up from 7th, but they still match the Marines list, so that suggests more models on the table at a given value. It might even out assuming we can still buy more Specials and Heavies than other unit types, but still...
Actual pages are leaked. All of this is accurate. No Eviscerators except on Canoness, but you can take Inferno Pistols on Superiors now. No AOF on Vehicles, Imagifers are going to be crucial and AOF are very good now.
Jacobus is no good for Sisters anymore, but good for Guard and Ministorum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Same with priests.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Celestine is auto-take again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Faith is start of turn, so no shenanigans with disembarking or deep striking and then assaulting anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Immolators are pretty bad ass depending on points. Double shot MM or Immolation flamer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exorcist is still heavy D6 but does multiple wounds at AP-4.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, reliably, 1 AoF from army rules, 1 from Celestine and maybe .5 from each Imagifer. Do auras work out of vehicles anymore? We could just add imagifers to each mech'd squad and put out bubbles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wait, Jacobus isn't useless since we are also Adeptus Ministorum. Cool.
pretre wrote: Faith is start of turn, so no shenanigans with disembarking or deep striking and then assaulting anyways.
You can still deploy Celestine, move 12, AoF, and move 12 again. So she can move 24 + a 12 inch charge top of 1. I also don't see where she can deep strike anymore. I saw Seraphim have Sky Strike, so they can.
Zealot isn't so bad. It's just hatred really. I was really expecting a he'll of a lot more morale control for us to be honest. Only the dialogue gives a refill to morale and that's taking up an elite slot.
Priests giving an extra attack to unit's in combat is a nice thing. Good buff to repentia and pretty amazing for Arco flaggelants granting them 3d3 attacks in combat. A 10 man squad of arcos with the mathematically unlikely ability to throw out 90 attacks with refills to hit?! Ouch.
pretre wrote: Faith is start of turn, so no shenanigans with disembarking or deep striking and then assaulting anyways.
You can still deploy Celestine, move 12, AoF, and move 12 again. So she can move 24 + a 12 inch charge top of 1. I also don't see where she can deep strike anymore. I saw Seraphim have Sky Strike, so they can.
Yes, you can and she can't deep strike.
And AOF is start of turn, so you AOF first then move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Zealot isn't so bad. It's just hatred really. I was really expecting a he'll of a lot more morale control for us to be honest. Only the dialogue gives a refill to morale and that's taking up an elite slot.
Priests giving an extra attack to unit's in combat is a nice thing. Good buff to repentia and pretty amazing for Arco flaggelants granting them 3d3 attacks in combat. A 10 man squad of arcos with the mathematically unlikely ability to throw out 90 attacks with refills to hit?! Ouch.
Zealot was good because it applied to the unit. It only applies to the model now since they don't join the units.
pretre wrote: Faith is start of turn, so no shenanigans with disembarking or deep striking and then assaulting anyways.
You can still deploy Celestine, move 12, AoF, and move 12 again. So she can move 24 + a 12 inch charge top of 1. I also don't see where she can deep strike anymore. I saw Seraphim have Sky Strike, so they can.
Yes, you can and she can't deep strike.
And AOF is start of turn, so you AOF first then move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Zealot isn't so bad. It's just hatred really. I was really expecting a he'll of a lot more morale control for us to be honest. Only the dialogue gives a refill to morale and that's taking up an elite slot.
Priests giving an extra attack to unit's in combat is a nice thing. Good buff to repentia and pretty amazing for Arco flaggelants granting them 3d3 attacks in combat. A 10 man squad of arcos with the mathematically unlikely ability to throw out 90 attacks with refills to hit?! Ouch.
Zealot was good because it applied to the unit. It only applies to the model now since they don't join the units.
And some units have zealot rule- like arcos and dca.
I've interpreted the AoF roll at the start of the turn to just see if you have a faith point available and use it throughout your turn when desired, e.g. roll 2+ and get the point, move, shoot, use point in assault phase to double tap.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: I've interpreted the AoF roll at the start of the turn to just see if you have a faith point available and use it throughout your turn when desired, e.g. roll 2+ and get the point, move, shoot, use point in assault phase to double tap.
I don't see that interpretation as being accurate. Both St C and the AoF rule use Immediately to refer to when you use the AoF.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: I've interpreted the AoF roll at the start of the turn to just see if you have a faith point available and use it throughout your turn when desired, e.g. roll 2+ and get the point, move, shoot, use point in assault phase to double tap.
I don't see that interpretation as being accurate. Both St C and the AoF rule use Immediately to refer to when you use the AoF.
Agreed - that's how I read it
Re Zealot - yeah its now a non Sisters thing - all the other Ministroium units get it.
Looking at Rhinos/ Immolators - bit weird that any old Ministorium unit can jump in but not Sisters of different orders
Melissia wrote: Christ, that's a really low amount of acts of faith. Once again, GW fails to balance AoFs for various levels of play.
I really don't know about that yet. We need to see the points for Imagifers and the ability to bubble out of vehicles. If they are cheap and auras work out of vehicles, then we will have tons of AOF activations every turn.
Unless the Imagifier is a 15 pt character. Then we're just paying for a 50/50 shot for faith. I was hoping for some sort of detailed faith system like the KDK blood tithe points, but alas...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hate you Petre.
Doubt Imagifiers will work from inside vehicules. The wording on the rule mentions picking a model within 6 inches of it. For all intent and purpose, based on the current rules, once a character is in a transport, it no longer can use abilities unless worded otherwise. There is nothing in the description that contradicts the transport rule.
As or point cost, that original source on Natfka was pretty much on the spot for his rumors. There's a very good chance it will be 40 points for it at this point.
I was really just expecting another straight copy and paste from the last codex, with nothing really changed other that points costs, so I'm looking forward to trying out some changes to the army for the first time since the WD dex.
The new acts of faith are very good, but I think a lot of people are put off them because they don't combo well with our usual go to units, the dominions and the exorcist. Since they're used at the start of a turn they're pretty situational for short ranged weapons, plus after their scout move they'll be well ahead of any imagifiers. Exorcists don't have the act of faith rule so obviously nothing for them either. I can imagine the list to beat for the army will still be one that maximises these units.
Since blasts are gone and transports are so much more expensive, I can see infantry becoming a lot more viable. Something like a few squads of retributors with heavy bolter and multimeltas, with a large squad of sisters or two to screen them from melee units, all backed up by Celestine, canonesses and imagifiers is an army I really want to get running.
If imagifiers could be taken as Hq choices, and acts of faith could be used at the start of any of your phases this codex would have been seriously good, as it is well have to wait and see how not plays on the tabletop. I suppose a lot of it depends on how good stratagems are, and if it's worth dipping into other lists for cheap tax units to Max out command points.
My dominions scout with their ride... which is still great!
Looks like I'll need more bolter sisters, with the cost of a rhino I don't see much of a reason to buy one. I wonder what model they have for Imagifiers?
Anpu-adom wrote:My dominions scout with their ride... which is still great!
Looks like I'll need more bolter sisters, with the cost of a rhino I don't see much of a reason to buy one. I wonder what model they have for Imagifiers?
An Imagifier is the model carrying the Simulacrum Imperalis. There's two different variants [at least that I have], one with a little house with skulls inside of it and one with a more ordinary banner.
All things considered, I wish that units in transports could move their metal box with Hand of the Emperor. That would get Repentia and Dominions up board a lot faster, since Dominions are losing about 6" of threat range.
Hoboanarki wrote:I was really just expecting another straight copy and paste from the last codex, with nothing really changed other that points costs, so I'm looking forward to trying out some changes to the army for the first time since the WD dex.
The new acts of faith are very good, but I think a lot of people are put off them because they don't combo well with our usual go to units, the dominions and the exorcist. Since they're used at the start of a turn they're pretty situational for short ranged weapons, plus after their scout move they'll be well ahead of any imagifiers. Exorcists don't have the act of faith rule so obviously nothing for them either. I can imagine the list to beat for the army will still be one that maximises these units.
Since blasts are gone and transports are so much more expensive, I can see infantry becoming a lot more viable. Something like a few squads of retributors with heavy bolter and multimeltas, with a large squad of sisters or two to screen them from melee units, all backed up by Celestine, canonesses and imagifiers is an army I really want to get running.
If imagifiers could be taken as Hq choices, and acts of faith could be used at the start of any of your phases this codex would have been seriously good, as it is well have to wait and see how not plays on the tabletop. I suppose a lot of it depends on how good stratagems are, and if it's worth dipping into other lists for cheap tax units to Max out command points.
I see potential in Seraphim with the Hand of the Emperor ability, but there's just not enough acts of faith in the army to plan anything around them. I play at 1850 to 2500 points normally, so there's not going to be enough Acts to go around.
I'm not excited about the Divine Guidance ability. The Imperial Guard gets the same ability via First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!, and strictly better. The problem is, that this is the only one that works with Imagifiers being the source of additional Acts, since Imagifiers can't keep up with fast shooting or melee units. Celestine being an extra act to nearby units makes her both an auto-take and facilitates aggression somewhat, but only in small games.
The Passion is rarely going to get used, because the units that can make use of it will be too far from Imagifiers to be able to.
Spirit of the Martyr would definitely be good. But a Hospitaller achieves the same ends, without consuming the turn's act.
Anyway, I'll be needing more Imagifiers. And at 40 points for a 50/50 shot an an extra act per turn, they strike me as a bit too expensive.
You know characters like imagifiers can hang out in a transport, right?
Put three dominions forward with 3 Imagifiers in the Immos/Repressors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I could see using Passion all the time with Celestine. If she's still in combat, carve up the unit at the start of the turn with passion and then go to a new one during move and assault.
pretre wrote: You know characters like imagifiers can hang out in a transport, right?
Put three dominions forward with 3 Imagifiers in the Immos/Repressors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I could see using Passion all the time with Celestine. If she's still in combat, carve up the unit at the start of the turn with passion and then go to a new one during move and assault.
The math just doesn't work there, though.
Sure, I can stick a Imagifier in with my Dominions [though the Imagifier lacks the Vanguard rule, and would therefore block the Dominions from scouting their transport], to get her up the field, but at the start of turn 1 the Dominions and Imagifiers and in their transports and are therefore unable to use an Act of Faith anyway.
And, because Acts of Faith will happen before the movement phase, and debarking happens before the transport moves, the Imagifiers inside transports won't be able to grant acts of faith until turn 3, by which point the units that needed the Imagifiers to support them are either dead or have advanced out of the Imagifiers' reach.
Why so pricey with the Rhinos? The leak actually has Immos as cheaper. There's room in an Immo for a minimum squad and a Priest or Imagifier, and I feel like the turret weapons mostly got better, so at the new price the ol' basic metal box seems destined for the scrap heap. Especially since I don't see fire points anywhere.
It seems like our tactics are mostly the same... Vanguard Dominions with max melta in an Immo, now with Imagifier to try for an extra round of in your face shooting. HB Retributers, now maybe with Imagifier, probably on foot taking the occasional -1 to reposition. Blobs with Priests and board control/gunline tactics. Exorcists doing what they do. Maybe more frequent sightings of Seraphim, Ecclesiarchy freaks, and possibly Penitent Engines... but maybe not. Still no good way to deliver Repentia.
Edit: just caught the post above... so no dice on Vanguard Doms. I guess a big squad with combi melta could try to hoof it off the line and protect their guns and Imagifier until they're in range.
Sure, I can stick a Imagifier in with my Dominions [though the Imagifier lacks the Vanguard rule, and would therefore block the Dominions from scouting their transport], to get her up the field, but at the start of turn 1 the Dominions and Imagifiers and in their transports and are therefore unable to use an Act of Faith anyway.
And, because Acts of Faith will happen before the movement phase, and debarking happens before the transport moves, the Imagifiers inside transports won't be able to grant acts of faith until turn 3, by which point the units that needed the Imagifiers to support them are either dead or have advanced out of the Imagifiers' reach.
There's no indication that this blocks use of scout on the transport. If they are in a transport, they give it to their transport. It doesn't say anything about other units in the transport.
Also, where are you seeing that being in a transport means you can't use an act of faith?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Edit: just caught the post above... so no dice on Vanguard Doms. I guess a big squad with combi melta could try to hoof it off the line and protect their guns and Imagifier until they're in range.
I don't see his interpretation from the rules we have seen.
There's no indication that this blocks use of scout on the transport. If they are in a transport, they give it to their transport. It doesn't say anything about other units in the transport.
Also, where are you seeing that being in a transport means you can't use an act of faith?
From the Vanguard rule: "If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle can make this move instead." The Imagifier does not have this rule, and so the Immolator (or Rhino) on which the Dominions is embarked cannot make the Vanguard move.
As for using Acts of Faith while embarked, I believe the main rule book prohibits using any abilities while embarked, unless specified otherwise in the codex. Acts of Faith are not specified as allowed while embarked, so they are not.
I just hope Repressors aren't pointed so high they aren't worthwhile. The Exorcist jumped 22%, 125 to 160, the Rhino 43%, 40 to 70, odds are the Repressor will jump from 75 to 100-110 range. However, the thought of a Repressor with 8 firing points with 2x 5 man dominion squads with 8 meltas firing from it does make me giggle with delight.
There's no indication that this blocks use of scout on the transport. If they are in a transport, they give it to their transport. It doesn't say anything about other units in the transport.
It's on their datasheet, the transport they're embarked in only gets to make a vanguard move if all the models embarked on it have the vanguard ability. So technically you could put two 5 girl melta squads in a single rhino, to make a pretty cheap but very risky delivery platform.
There's no indication that this blocks use of scout on the transport. If they are in a transport, they give it to their transport. It doesn't say anything about other units in the transport.
It's on their datasheet, the transport they're embarked in only gets to make a vanguard move if all the models embarked on it have the vanguard ability. So technically you could put two 5 girl melta squads in a single rhino, to make a pretty cheap but very risky delivery platform.
I know. But FRFSRF is still a strictly better power to enhance shooting: It happens after the unit has moved, allowing the Guardsmen to get optimum range for maximum effect, it can be done a whole lot of times in a turn automatically, compared to once a turn on a 2+ and additional times on a 4+ for 40 points, and because of the way Guardsmen work, it's drastically more efficient too at getting additional bullets. Combine that with the nerf to bolters and indirect buff to Lasguns, it's fairly simple to see why, even if Divine Guidance works on Meltaguns, FRFSRF is still a better power.
I know. But FRFSRF is still a strictly better power to enhance shooting: It happens after the unit has moved, allowing the Guardsmen to get optimum range for maximum effect, it can be done a whole lot of times in a turn automatically, compared to once a turn on a 2+ and additional times on a 4+ for 40 points, and because of the way Guardsmen work, it's drastically more efficient too at getting additional bullets. Combine that with the nerf to bolters and indirect buff to Lasguns, it's fairly simple to see why, even if Divine Guidance works on Meltaguns, FRFSRF is still a better power.
Possibly a mere quibble, but "strictly better" generally means better in all situations, and FRFSRF is not better than Divine Guidance (because of, for example, its effect on meltaguns).
From the Vanguard rule: "If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle can make this move instead." The Imagifier does not have this rule, and so the Immolator (or Rhino) on which the Dominions is embarked cannot make the Vanguard move.
As for using Acts of Faith while embarked, I believe the main rule book prohibits using any abilities while embarked, unless specified otherwise in the codex. Acts of Faith are not specified as allowed while embarked, so they are not.
So noted! I missed that part. We will have to see on the embarked part.
I know. But FRFSRF is still a strictly better power to enhance shooting: It happens after the unit has moved, allowing the Guardsmen to get optimum range for maximum effect, it can be done a whole lot of times in a turn automatically, compared to once a turn on a 2+ and additional times on a 4+ for 40 points, and because of the way Guardsmen work, it's drastically more efficient too at getting additional bullets. Combine that with the nerf to bolters and indirect buff to Lasguns, it's fairly simple to see why, even if Divine Guidance works on Meltaguns, FRFSRF is still a better power.
Possibly a mere quibble, but "strictly better" generally means better in all situations, and FRFSRF is not better than Divine Guidance (because of, for example, its effect on meltaguns).
Okay, DG is specifically better in one instance: You have Meltaguns/Multimeltas, you're shooting them at a tank, you moved close enough to be shooting at the tank last turn, and the enemy didn't kill you or assault you with the tank in their turn..
Also, so when I buy my Exorcists for 160 points, I still have to pay for their Missile Launcher?
BSS going from 12 points to 9 points a piece and no longer having to pay the 10 points more for the VSS is a massive boon.
180 points for a 20 sister squad is a bargain.
I think we are in a seriously good spot for this edition.
I was going to rant on the penitent engine earlier since its 129 points per model so almost 400 points for a full squad. Super expensive, but its 21 wounds at T6 and could honestly put some serious hurting on an imperial knight if they get to him.
I am painting 2 more right now to have a squad of 3 and will give a serious go this edition.
Repentia get to get in melee out of a transport, but their eviscerators got nerfed to hell-- as in, they're nerfed to the point that even basic MEQ now gets an armor save against them.
Celestians get higher melee to-hit again, but they're still kinda stuck in "elite limbo" where they're supposedly elite but they have nothing really to show for it; their main buff was the Bodyguards rule, which is okay, but Sisters only really have one HQ worth protecting iwth an additional squad of kinda expensive for what they otherwise do elites-- and Celestine doesn't NEED said protection.
Seraphim are still good, might get better cause of the change to twin-linked.
Battle Sisters are cheap, but to most people they'll still remain little more than vectors used to cart around meltas and flamers. Might be worth taking larger squads for bolter spam at least, with the change to how damage to vehicles and such works.
Dominions are still good, especially with immolators being better.
Retributors are... well, they're still Retributors. I guess you can give them an additional phase of shooting if you want to spend your acts of faith on them, might make something of themselves.
Canonesses got a definite buff with their leadership aura. It's not super-strong but it's still quite notable, and their statline is good for being a human character.
Celestine is still Celestine.
Acts of Faith scale poorly; unless you bring Celestine, you stand an uncomfortably high chance of not getting any off at all far too often to be comfortable even if you bring imagifiers, which are basically a point tax you have to pay if you want acts of faith to scale with the army. Rhinos are too expensive, immolators are nice, exorcists are a bit more survivable and such.
Rest are ecclesiarchy crap that Idon't care much about, but it got buffed at least so there's that. Surprised that Crusaders get acts of faith, but unless you're using a pure ecclesiarchy army or allying an ecclesiarchy detachment in to a guard army, I don't see that ever getting used.
No new units, though, and no new miniatures. So Still using 1997's leftovers.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.
Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?
Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.
Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.
You're just straight up wrong. The new AoFs are insane, especially with how ridiculously brutal penitent engines are.
Firstly, celestine is guaranteed a first turn charge every game (from space marine leaks jumppacks give the standard 9"deepstrike and she can AoF herself into auto succeed range.) Use one on penitent enines and they can move an average of 20" per turn and still shoot their heavy flamers, or move 14" and charge. You can also use them to get around the 'disembark before you move' thing AND still get double shooting for the unit that pops out. Penitent engines can get 4 rounds of attacks per turn with their special ability(as I read it) WITH NO CHANCE AT BEING COUNTER ATTACKED THAT TURN.
Yeah, celestine at least 2 imagifiers are pretty much mandatory but holy gak is there so much cool stuff we can do with even just 2-3 per turn.
Penitent Engines don't have Acts of Faith, so no... you won't be giving them one.
Still an unconfirmed rumor to me. A lot of incinsistancies, I will wait to see what actually comes out.
Does it specifically call out Imagifers as a new priest type HQ or is it alluding to the Sororitas carrying a Simulacrum in a squad? If its the former, what role does the Simulacra now play (other than becoming an Imagifer)? If its the latter, well, we are going to have some fun.
They are already doing better than my Bretonnians (who do quite well in AoS actually). So there is plenty to be happy about.
That we still have no new miniatures, no new units, no new things to add to the faction and just reworked old things is not a thing to be thankful for. It's been 20 years. You have had plenty of time to get all the metal battle sisters you could ever want, and they'd still be usable after plastics got released-- you wouldn't be being forced to get the plastics and dump your metals.
dracpanzer wrote: Still an unconfirmed rumor to me. A lot of incinsistancies, I will wait to see what actually comes out.
Does it specifically call out Imagifers as a new priest type HQ or is it alluding to the Sororitas carrying a Simulacrum in a squad? If its the former, what role does the Simulacra now play (other than becoming an Imagifer)? If its the latter, well, we are going to have some fun.
They are already doing better than my Bretonnians (who do quite well in AoS actually). So there is plenty to be happy about.
And thank the Emperor, no plastic!
Not sure what you mean by unconfirmed. All of the datasheets have been leaked on natfka and I have read them in the actual book. It's all legit. Point costs can also be found a few posts above.
Imagifier is an Elite choice. They are a single model unit and are classified characters. As such they cannot be picked off unless they are the closest unit or the enemy as a rule allowing them (like sniper rifles).
The only sister HQs we have are Celestine and the Canoness. If you go one llevel of keyword above, then Jacobus is an HQ as well where as the Priest is not, he's also an elite.
As such, our go to detachment is likely to be at least a Battalion for the 6 elite slots and 3 command points.
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Melissia wrote: That we still have no new miniatures, no new units, no new things to add to the faction and just reworked old things is not a thing to be thankful for. It's been 20 years. You have had plenty of time to get all the metal battle sisters you could ever want, and they'd still be usable after plastics got released-- you wouldn't be being forced to get the plastics and dump your metals.
The fact that you have to pay for the Penitent Engine's weapons is a good sign that we have a new model coming that will have different weapon options to chose from. The same is likely true of the Mistress.
Let's not forget that those books are only temporary to get everyone started with 8th edition. Codexes should be following soon for every army. I expect these to be more fleshed out.
I'm working up a 1500 list for a 3 rd tournament in July.
Basic idea so far (pending more info, of course) is a lot like my previous lists.
Celestine and Gems - 250
Canoness - 45
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Dialogous - 15
5 BSS with M/HW in Immo - 147
20 BSS with Flamer x2 and Immo - 266
Exo - 160
Exo - 160
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 186
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 186
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm. I'm wondering if Rets will be better than exos.
Exos are good and tough, but can't get faith'd for double shot.
Both can get reroll 1's with Canoness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh shoot, I screwed up points. You still pay for the gun even if it comes with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I could do
Battallion Det (+3 Command)
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness - 45
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
5 BSS with M/F in Rhino - 144
Exo - 160
10 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1499
So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?
Am I missing something, or are BSS squads capped at 15? It gives the option to take an additional 5 (total of 10, or an additional 10 (total of 15). Do we have some reason to think that we can do both of those, for a total of 20?
After to talking to people, there is no reason to take troops if you don't want command points.
Outrider Detachment:
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness -45
Exorcist 160
9 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1500
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?
Also, vehicles are a lot better. We don't have to worry about getting stunned, etc. Just MW when it blows up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, so silly ideas:
pretre wrote: Oh yeah, it does look like it caps at 15. My bad.
Re: MSU, just playing with numbers.
After to talking to people, there is no reason to take troops if you don't want command points.
Outrider Detachment:
Celestine and Gem - 250
Canoness -45
Exorcist 160
9 Rets with 4 HB - 130
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo - 221
1500
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: So despite the steep points increase for transports, you're still going with Mech MSU... is that a tactical preference, or do you see that still being the favorable build in 8th?
Also, vehicles are a lot better. We don't have to worry about getting stunned, etc. Just MW when it blows up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, so silly ideas:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead 1
Celestine and Gem - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 3 Melta/1Flamer in Rhino - 183
Spearhead 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
5 Doms with 2 Melta/2 Flamer in Rhino - 175
1498
Wow, you're fast.
How about this for 2000:
Battalion
250-Celestine, 2x Geminae
45-Canoness
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
40-Imagifier
185-Battle Sisters, 2x Flamers, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
185-Battle Sisters, 2x Flamers, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
185-Battle Sisters, 5x Extra Battle Sisters, 2x Flamer, Rhino, Storm Bolter
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
240-Dominions, 4x Meltas, Immolator, Twin Multimelta
134-Seraphim, 5x Extra Seraphim, 4x Hand Flamer
160-Exorcist
160-Exorcist
85-Retributors, 4x Heavy Bolters
1989
TBH, I don't know if tanks are going to be everywhere, and I need to be ready to kill them, or if the sudden hike in price will make them all but disappear.
Also wondering if I'd rather make 2 Imagifiers into Canonesses and separate into 1 Battalion, 1 Vanguard, and 1 Spearhead to farm CP's. What's more valuable?
Also, are Storm Bolters suddenly better than Flamers? Flamers are D6 Autohits, but Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2, so 4 shots at any range I could use a flamer and 2 beyond that. They average out with the flamer slightly higher by a fraction of a wound, but the Storm Bolter is cheaper. If I flipped all the Flamers for Storm Bolters, I'd be able to buy another Imagifier.
pretre wrote: I dunno. I'm torn on troops since we get no benefit from them. I'm gonna noodle some more tomorrow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooh good call on storm bolters. Hmm.
I just noticed it while trying list permutations. I think I may need more Storm Bolter wielding Sisters, because the range lets them make better use of Divine Guidance, they average the same as flamers up close, have 2 shots at mid range, and are 5 points less.
Troops are the tax for CP's, essentially. The way I see it, Battle Sisters aren't terrible, and at the very least can bring an Immolator to the field to roll around with a Multimelta to harass tanks and monsters, and getting re-rolls would, at the very least, allow more Acts of Faith, or more reliable Exorcists, if nothing else.
And, in the vein of my thoughts on vehicles, I'm wondering it I want the Immolation Flamer on the Immolators or if I want Multimeltas. Killing tanks is going to be nigh on impossible, which makes me worried that no matter how many meltaguns I bring I won't have brought enough. But, on the other hand, if the [i]Rhino[I] is 70 points, then maybe it will be too cost-ineffective to run, and I'm not going to see any tanks and would be better just loading out for infantry killing and counting on my Exorcists and 6's from the rest of my army to carry the day against the few vehicles I do see.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: If those are all accurate, i'm terribly bummed. Sisters received the most linear set of rules from 7th - 8th yet, and in doing so, nothing was done to really help them.
Armies like Tyranids and others already have demonstratable ways to Turn 1 assault from across a table, and meanwhile, GW seems afraid to let Acts of Faith even reach "ok" status?
Considering how delicate a pure Sister's army would be, I feel like there would be no harm in going Ynnari-lite with them. Let them get their double-shooting phase at decent odds, considering their special weapons tend to be shorter range anyway. Especially as they're doing so by placing themselves at serious risk of being assaulted to death the next turn.
Oh and Penitent Engines are still mathematically terrible, and unlikely to ever reach the combat where they would presumably do well.
You're just straight up wrong. The new AoFs are insane, especially with how ridiculously brutal penitent engines are.
Firstly, celestine is guaranteed a first turn charge every game (from space marine leaks jumppacks give the standard 9"deepstrike and she can AoF herself into auto succeed range.) Use one on penitent enines and they can move an average of 20" per turn and still shoot their heavy flamers, or move 14" and charge. You can also use them to get around the 'disembark before you move' thing AND still get double shooting for the unit that pops out. Penitent engines can get 4 rounds of attacks per turn with their special ability(as I read it) WITH NO CHANCE AT BEING COUNTER ATTACKED THAT TURN.
Yeah, celestine at least 2 imagifiers are pretty much mandatory but holy gak is there so much cool stuff we can do with even just 2-3 per turn.
Penitent Engines don't have Acts of Faith, so no... you won't be giving them one.
That post was made before full details leaked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still think there' something there with penitent engines (not getting AoF OR SoF is bullgak though) The amount of damage they can kick out is pretty ridiculous, they're special ability is better than Khorne Berzerkers' when it actually goes off and having 18" on average on HF is pretty solid they're also fairly cheap for a vehicle, they're just so fragile...
Maybe a heavy msu list with multiple units of 1 Pengine and just heavy target saturation would free them up to cover the distance...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: I dunno. I'm torn on troops since we get no benefit from them. I'm gonna noodle some more tomorrow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooh good call on storm bolters. Hmm.
Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.
ERJAK wrote: Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.
Flamers also get d6 auto hits from overwatch, providing the enemy is within 8", whereas the stormbolter is hitting on 6s. Still, it's definitely a compelling choice, I think which you go with will depend on if you're expecting to get charged by hordes of light infantry like boyz or cultists.
ERJAK wrote: Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.
Flamers also get d6 auto hits from overwatch, providing the enemy is within 8", whereas the stormbolter is hitting on 6s. Still, it's definitely a compelling choice, I think which you go with will depend on if you're expecting to get charged by hordes of light infantry like boyz or cultists.
The interesting thing will be mixing and matching the weapons inside units. Now that every weapon can fire at a different target, what is the optimal mix for the current environment? The answer will be different in each case, but adding another body to the unit is an option too (since the melta gun costs more than the sister does!)
Long have we laughed at the GW Battle Sister Squad with a Stormbolter and a Melta gun... might they have been on to something?
BSS starting at 9 points a model? Dominions starting at 10? I'm pretty happy. That and the Imagifier being an elite... that covers my main concern about running a battalion.
Hoboanarki wrote: I think with the way acts of faith work, sticking to single weapons per squad will still be the way to go, but I may be wrong.
Why? You can still split shoots because it happens just as if it were the shooting phase.
I'm leaning towards a rough core of:
Disruption Force
Canoness
2x5 Dominions, 4 meltas, Immolators with twin-melta
Main Body
Celestine
3x10 Sisters, HF, Flamer, Rhino
Support Force
Canoness
2x Exorcist
I'll have to work out the points later but that should give the important units reroll 1s to hit and give me enough mobility to cover objectives and firepower to threaten big monsters/knights.
Trying to figure out what will be the new spot for armies.
Took a current 7th edition 1850 points sister army consisting of:
Double CAD
Celestine
Jacobus
4 x 5 BSS with Meltas in Immo
2 x 5 BSS with Meltas in Immo (not using repressor since we have no points for it right now)
7 Seraphims with Hand Flamers
3 Exorcists
9 x Retributors with 4 HBs and Simulacrum
Point wise in the new format this comes to 2349 points.
Given how people rarely like giving up on their toys when playing, the standard game size will likely go from 1500-1850 to 2000-2500 to account for the point difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
L1ttle wrote: Did you guys also notice that acro's have a save of 7+!
How the hell does that work
A 7+ save is the new "-". It just means that the unit does not have a save until it steps into cover, at which point it gains a +1 and go to a 6+ save.
In general both infantri and verhicles became more expensive.
Let's take a look at common loadouts:
5 sisters with HF, melta was 80 points in 7th and is 79 in 8th.
5 Dominions with 4 melta's was 105 in 7th and is 118 in 8th
5 Retributers with 4 HF was 100 in 7th and is 113 in 8th
After this I recalulated my current 1000 point list. With the 8th ed codex it became a lot more expensive.
7th ed list:
Canoness, book of st. Lucius. 70
2x 5 sisters. Flamer, HF, melta bombs, rhino 240
2x 5 dominions, 4 melta, rhino. ( 1 laud hailer) 300
2x exorcists 250
5 retributers. 4 HF, rhino
I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.
My thinking on not mixing weapons was that if I want to take down something big, I want to fire 8 melta shots, if I want to take down a horde I want to fire 8D6 flamer shots. I'd rather focus down one target than spread my shooting across multiple targets.
That's probably personal preference though, I'll be giving mixed squads a go.
Also, another important note is that flamers don't ignore cover anymore.
I'm imagining a groundpounder list that's heavier on hospitallers, but I really don't know if I want to put it together right now. Thinking maybe 3*15 battle sisters with storm bolters and meltaguns, 2*5 celestians with storm bolters, 2 hospitallers, canoness, and 2*5 retributors with heavy bolters.
More just to try it out than anything else. The hospitallers look quite useful, but also a bit fragile.
Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.
Why are flamers able to fire after advance? Even with advancing, flamers achieve effectiveness out of 8+d6".
Also, Storm Bolters achieve equivalent effectiveness at 12" and half effectiveness out to 24"
pretre wrote:I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.
It doesn't look like flamers ignore cover anymore, either, from the IG stuff. Eradicator Nova Cannon has a special clause to ignore cover, and flamers don't.
