Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

Why are flamers able to fire after advance? Even with advancing, flamers achieve effectiveness out of 8+d6".

Also, Storm Bolters achieve equivalent effectiveness at 12" and half effectiveness out to 24"

pretre wrote:I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.

It doesn't look like flamers ignore cover anymore, either, from the IG stuff. Eradicator Nova Cannon has a special clause to ignore cover, and flamers don't.

You may fire assault weapons after advancing.

So you can advance with melta as well...

 Melissia wrote:
I'm imagining a groundpounder list that's heavier on hospitallers, but I really don't know if I want to put it together right now. Thinking maybe 3*15 battle sisters with storm bolters and meltaguns, 2*5 celestians with storm bolters, 2 hospitallers, canoness, and 2*5 retributors with heavy bolters.

More just to try it out than anything else. The hospitallers look quite useful, but also a bit fragile.

Yeah Snipers would be a pain but its a cool idea

I wasn't saying taking flamers to ignore cover, I was saying since we don't have an IC AOF, it doesn't make it as worth it to go all out Melta.

 pretre wrote:
I wasn't saying taking flamers to ignore cover, I was saying since we don't have an IC AOF, it doesn't make it as worth it to go all out Melta.

Actually, since cover is a buff to armoursave and high AP is a penalty to armoursave, then the Melta effectively does ignore cover better than flamers and storm bolters.


From earlier post:



A flamer outperforms a storm bolter by a few percent. A Meltagun outperforms both rather drastically.

I think the Storm Bolter is just better than the flamer, considering it has flexibility granted by superior range and is 5 points cheaper.

The Meltagun is better in most cases, since the chance of killing a second 1-wound model is fairly low with the Storm Bolter and Flamer, but does marginal superiority against medium infantry and significant improvement against armor warrant the extra points spent?

Didn't you already post that?

 Melissia wrote:
Didn't you already post that?

Yes, I moved it here.

I didn't have any thoughts on it when I first posted it, so I figured since I decided to detail my own thoughts on the weapon comparison, then I might as well move it to where I was talking about it.

nevermind

lol monte carlo applied to toy soldiers, love it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so on the subject of seraphim, is hand flamer still the weapon of choice? Celestine enabling AoF on a 2+ lets them shoot twice after deep striking in?

 troy_tempest wrote:
lol monte carlo applied to toy soldiers, love it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so on the subject of seraphim, is hand flamer still the weapon of choice? Celestine enabling AoF on a 2+ lets them shoot twice after deep striking in?

With regards to the latter, no, because it looks like Acts occur before movement, and therefore the Seraphim won't be on the board. But, conceivably, the Seraphim could stand next to Celestine, use her automatic one while she uses the 2+ one, then use Hand of the Emperor on turn 1 to move 12", then move 12", then shoot, then charge.

I'm not sure about hand flamers, but inferno pistols are still expensive, and both are better than bolt pistols.

can i also clarify - the days of ICs joining units are behind us? eg a canoness will always be on her own? Celestine will always be alone (apart from gemini)?

 troy_tempest wrote:
can i also clarify - the days of ICs joining units are behind us? eg a canoness will always be on her own? Celestine will always be alone (apart from gemini)?

Yes, but the Canoness and Celestine can't be targeted unless they're the closest model to the enemy, and provide aura buffs to friendly models.

what are ppls thoughs more generally on seraphim as a viable assult unit? They are so much cheaper now and pistols buffed in CC?

 troy_tempest wrote:
what are ppls thoughs more generally on seraphim as a viable assult unit? They are so much cheaper now and pistols buffed in CC?

Well, they're not really close combat units. They're shooting units with good mobility and hideously short range. As best, close quarters is for finishing off the unit they shot at.

It doesn't look like they have Hammer of Wrath anymore either, so they're just X+1 S3 AP0 melee attacks where X equals the number of Seraphim in your squad.

They could conceivably AoF move 12", Move 12", shoot, then charge, then next turn AoF shoot anyone left in the unit they charged, then move 12", then shoot, then charge again, and this would, at the very least, block some of the enemy shooting.

Yeah, I wouldn't use them as an assault unit.

Pretre: Since we can't shoot out of transports anymore, you need to revise your "Those you bail, fail." motto.

 deviantduck wrote:
Pretre: Since we can't shoot out of transports anymore, you need to revise your "Those you bail, fail." motto.

I know, right?

Anyone have the point roster for sob still? The 'full leaks' are missing SoB and the pic earlier in the thread looks like it's broken.

It's out there.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't use them as an assault unit.

Do they have fly - if so they can go attack Flyers

ERJAK wrote:
Anyone have the point roster for sob still? The 'full leaks' are missing SoB and the pic earlier in the thread looks like it's broken.

Working for me.

But even then, we only have two weeks more to wait.

Looking more at it, I still honestly get the impression that Dialogous and Hospitaller characters will be more important to sisters than Imagifiers will. The ability to reroll failed morale checks-- and potentially not need to take casualties-- is really powerful, and Hospitallers will make battle sister squad bolter lines much more survivable for such a small investment. They're negligibly useful in combat compared to the imagifier, I will grant, but are also cheaper.

From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

It looks like almost everyone is misunderstanding how the Imagifiers work.


The Act of Faith special rule requires a unit with the "Act of faith" ability.

The imagifier requires a friendly unit with the "Order" keyword.


Essentially, they can AoF Rhinos, Immolators and... drumroll... Exorcists on a 4+

I'll let you workout the possibilities.

Voldrak wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

It looks like almost everyone is misunderstanding how the Imagifiers work.


The Act of Faith special rule requires a unit with the "Act of faith" ability.

The imagifier requires a friendly unit with the "Order" keyword.


Essentially, they can AoF Rhinos, Immolators and... drumroll... Exorcists on a 4+

I'll let you workout the possibilities.

He's right, and the way AoF is worded on the main page doesn't technically contradict it (though it's a close thing) RAI might not be right but RAW this is how it works. Loopholes!

Yes, but you can't use that AoF aura of Imagifiers from within Rhinos, as the imagifier is not on the table.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, but you can't use that AoF aura of Imagifiers from within Rhinos, as the imagifier is not on the table.

Sending transports 24" downfield, or going 12" and disembarking (again loopholes!) might still be worth though.

Yes, but in the process, you're leaving the imagifiers behind.

Leaving them behind is fine, it all depends on what you do with them afterwards.

Here are two possible scenarios

Put a rhino with 9 repentias and a mistress on your 12 inch line. Leave another squad nearby that the imagifier can get to for subsequent turns.
AoF the rhino 12 inches up. Move 12 inches up. Next turn you can disembark and threaten almost anything with a nasty assault on his side of the table.

Depending on how this is ruled, it might be that the AoF move is not an actual move since its not in the move phase per say. If that is the case, you could disembark repentias turn 1 and, if your opponent deployed too close, you stand a good chance at charging with the mistress reroll


Instead of buying three Exorcists. Buy two and use the 160 points left over to buy 4 imagifiers.
You gain tactical flexibility across your army, or leave all 4 with those 2 exorcists. You stand a good chance at getting them both an AoF effectively shooting 4 exorcists for the cost of 3.

And you also stand an equally good chance shooting two exorcists at the cost of three, as well.

 Melissia wrote:
And you also stand an equally good chance shooting two exorcists at the cost of three, as well.

I don't think you used the word 'equal' correctly here


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, okay hear me out. If the SoB player has control of order of operations of AoF then you could do something like this:

1 canoness and standard 5M domis in an immo with MM, 2 imagifiers and Celestine. Vanguard the domis 12", then use your Turn AoF on Celestine to move her 12 or move+ advance depending. THEN use imag1 to move imag2 into range to AoF the immo, allowing the domis to disembark and the immo to move another 12. THEN use celestines AoF on the domis to double shoot. Now you got a 30+ inch first turn alphastrike with 12 melta shots rerolling 1s with at least the immolator's getting the 2D6 roll.

This is obviously just a thought exercise as a more efficient combo would have more redundancy and less points of failure AND they might now work in exactly this way but open your mind to the shenanigans!

ERJAK wrote:
He's right, and the way AoF is worded on the main page doesn't technically contradict it (though it's a close thing) RAI might not be right but RAW this is how it works. Loopholes!

GW's rule writing ability is still abysmal. Seriously that whole AoF thing, I cannot even in good faith understand precisely how it's meant to work!

can i check this is right

repentia pv = X
eviscerator pv = Y

total points per model = X+Y = 4x cost of bolter sister?

 troy_tempest wrote:
can i check this is right

repentia pv = X
eviscerator pv = Y

total points per model = X+Y = 4x cost of bolter sister?

Lookinh at the wrong evisceratot. Repentia have 'penitent' or w/e evis which is 0 pts.

Repentia if i rember correctly are 17per. Which is waaaaaayyyy too high buy w/e. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

Thx Erjak.

Anyone know whats happening with firepoints on vehicles? The leaks I've seen have nothing on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah it seems like firepoints on behicles have gone the way of the dodoo http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/40k-8th-edition-rumors/

Indeed.

To be able to fire from a vehicule now you have to be classified open topped.

Raiders, Orc trucks etc.

Okay, okay hear me out. If the SoB player has control of order of operations of AoF then you could do something like this:

1 canoness and standard 5M domis in an immo with MM, 2 imagifiers and Celestine. Vanguard the domis 12", then use your Turn AoF on Celestine to move her 12 or move+ advance depending. THEN use imag1 to move imag2 into range to AoF the immo, allowing the domis to disembark and the immo to move another 12. THEN use celestines AoF on the domis to double shoot. Now you got a 30+ inch first turn alphastrike with 12 melta shots rerolling 1s with at least the immolator's getting the 2D6 roll.

This is obviously just a thought exercise as a more efficient combo would have more redundancy and less points of failure AND they might now work in exactly this way but open your mind to the shenanigans!

Disembark says you can disembark if the transport hasn't moved yet. AoF says 'move as if it was the movement phase'. I'm a bit torn.

As for Imagifers, I see the RAW, although I doubt it was RAI. Celestine does the same thing. Hers doesn't have to be the same Ordo though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lack of fire points is really going to hurt SOB.

I may finally have a use for my 9 penitent engines!

EDIT: Am I right though in seeing that a single engine would cost 55+40+2x17 = 129 munchkins?

So, Dominions are fragile and can't disembark. What about using them as a 50 point add-on to an immolator?

Spearhead 1
Celestine and Gem - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40

Spearhead 2
Canoness - 45
Exorcist - 160
Exorcist - 160
Exorcist - 160
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Doms with Immolator (Immo Turret) - 153
5 Doms with Immolator (Immo Turret) - 153
1496

Because it would be cheaper to have 5 regular sisters to buy the Immolator.

And I'm not sure why Dominions can't disembark.
They scout 12", then disembark and move 6, and use their guns on a target.

It's certainly less good than it is now, where even the heaviest can't can almost be considered a write-off after being attacked by Dominions, but now will only loose maybe half it's wounds, but it works, I think.

I'm now also considering Seraphim. They are seem a lot cheaper. Used to be 95 points for 5 with HF and now they are 79.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Because it would be cheaper to have 5 regular sisters to buy the Immolator.

And I'm not sure why Dominions can't disembark.
They scout 12", then disembark and move 6, and use their guns on a target.

It's certainly less good than it is now, where even the heaviest can't can almost be considered a write-off after being attacked by Dominions, but now will only loose maybe half it's wounds, but it works, I think.

Only by 5 points and you get scouting on your immo this way.

They can disembark, but they are a lot less effective in doing so.

 pretre wrote:
I'm now also considering Seraphim. They are seem a lot cheaper. Used to be 95 points for 5 with HF and now they are 79.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Because it would be cheaper to have 5 regular sisters to buy the Immolator.

And I'm not sure why Dominions can't disembark.
They scout 12", then disembark and move 6, and use their guns on a target.

It's certainly less good than it is now, where even the heaviest can't can almost be considered a write-off after being attacked by Dominions, but now will only loose maybe half it's wounds, but it works, I think.

Only by 5 points and you get scouting on your immo this way.

They can disembark, but they are a lot less effective in doing so.

Ah, true, I didn't think of that.

I guess there's the question of whether or not the Immolator is worth bringing just for itself.

With the survivability of vehicles now, is a turn 2 bail-and-burn such a bad thing? If you rush 3 Dom Immos with Imagifier, they either draw fire from the rest of your army or they get their big double melta volley from ideal position slightly later in the game. Vanguard makes it less likely that you lose movement inches befote you can afford to. It could also help preserve Repentia transports or Penitent Engines while they get in position.

Well, now I'm considering Seraphim.

79 Points for 5 with 4 HF
62 Points for 5 with a PP.

Just great at harassing and taking objectives.

Hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another note. Hunter Killers are only 6 Points now and 48" S8 AP-2 D6 wounds.

Storm Bolters are only 4 Points! And give you 4 shots at 12". So for 10 points you can more than double the fire power of a rhino or Immo.

can i clarify deep strike/ fly? you come down 9 inches away. meaning you cant hit someone with hand flamers that turn? is there another move im missing?

 troy_tempest wrote:
can i clarify deep strike/ fly? you come down 9 inches away. meaning you cant hit someone with hand flamers that turn? is there another move im missing?

You are right. You will not want to deepstrike Seraphims for their firepower. You will only be able to use their bolt pistols and possibly the plasma pistol on the superior.
If you keep them in reserve, it's to drop them by an objective to score it on that turn.

They are much better starting on the table and using an AoF on them to move them 24 inches in a turn.

Fly them around while keeping cover for a 2+ save. Keep Celestine close and they also have a 5++ re-rollable.

If someone wants to charge them, he will have to get in close due to the -2 charge move while in cover and that should put him in range of your hand flamers for overwatch.

I plan on using both. Here's a sample list:

Outrider 1
C&G - 250
Exo with HKM - 166
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imag - 40
Imag - 40
5 Seraphim with 2 2xHF, Sup with CS - 79
5 Seraphim with 2 2xHF - 79
5 Seraphim with Sup with PP/CS - 62

Outrider 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imagifer - 40
5 Seraphim with Sup with PP/CS - 62
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Immo with Immo, SB, HKM - 231
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Immo with Immo, SB, HKM - 231
1495

Seras with HF are on the board
Seras with PP are either DS or on the board

HKMs are good, but as a one shot that has 33% chance to not do anything I think they require that a Canoness be nearby to mitigate the risk of missing. As an added bonus you get to re-roll the misses on the Exorcist Missile Launcher as well.

I think they are fine on Exorcists if you can keep the canoness close by, but on the dominions you're likely better off with just the extra stormbolter.

Fair enough. Also, Superiors can take Storm Bolters, which is nice for Rets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adjusting:

Outrider 1
C&G - 250
Exo with HKM - 166
6 Rets with 4 HB, Sup with SB - 98
Imag - 40
Imag - 40
5 Seraphim with 2 2xHF, Sup with CS - 79
5 Seraphim with 2 2xHF - 79
5 Seraphim with Sup with PP/CS - 62

Outrider 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB and Sup with SB- 89
Imagifer - 40
5 Seraphim with Sup with PP/CS - 62
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Immo with Immo, SB - 225
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Immo with Immo, SB - 225
1500

Superiors taking storm bolters is nice for superiors of all squads, since there's very little point of giving them close combat weapons-- our only real dedicated close combat squad already has its own unique squad leader. Adds another bolter to battle sister squads for half the price, too, and a bolter to celestians for a third of hte price.

 Melissia wrote:
Superiors taking storm bolters is nice for superiors of all squads, since there's very little point of giving them close combat weapons-- our only real dedicated close combat squad already has its own unique squad leader. Adds another bolter to battle sister squads for half the price, too, and a bolter to celestians for a third of hte price.

Well, I think it really only fits with Rets or Doms, since there is almost literally no reason to take BSS or Celestians over Rets and Doms. Doms are already spendy enough though, so I'll avoid there.

Does St C have the "you can only take one of this unit in an army" cos I cant see it?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Does St C have the "you can only take one of this unit in an army" cos I cant see it?

lol no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Supreme Command Detachment 1
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
C&G - 250

Supreme Command Detachment 2
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
1500

That is the His Will formation

Wierd that the Exorcist is LD7 and the Immolator / Rhino LD8.

So, their wording doesn't say the Invul bonus doesn't stack. So if you have multiples, you can get down to a 2++

whats the deal with vehciles and ld? arent they fearless?

Seraphim get a reroll, so if you can get them in range, they have a rerollable 2++

 troy_tempest wrote:
whats the deal with vehciles and ld? arent they fearless?

Not that I am aware of - however they are immune to Battleshock as they are single units

 pretre wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Does St C have the "you can only take one of this unit in an army" cos I cant see it?

lol no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Supreme Command Detachment 1
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
C&G - 250

Supreme Command Detachment 2
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
C&G - 250
1500

Looks like deathstars 3.0: a bunch of Celestines staying close from each other (almost like a unit) to get that sweet +6 invul boost xD
Alternate the placement of the wounded celestines in the middle of the pack for some wound-allocation-ish shenanigan

It gets worse.

YOu can take 5 Celestines and 22 Seraphim at 1500. The seraphim could have a 2++ rerollable and you could use them to screen.

Plus there are all sorts of weird interactions with the Geminae. You can transfer them to different celestines and when you respawn celestine she could go next to any of them. Of course, if you fail your respawn, all your geminae disappear (from all the celestines)

 pretre wrote:
It gets worse.

YOu can take 5 Celestines and 22 Seraphim at 1500. The seraphim could have a 2++ rerollable and you could use them to screen.

Plus there are all sorts of weird interactions with the Geminae. You can transfer them to different celestines and when you respawn celestine she could go next to any of them. Of course, if you fail your respawn, all your geminae disappear (from all the celestines)

At least the turn after losing all the geminae, you still can resurect 4 of them with the other Celestine

Now.... where is that damn rule that will kill this Oh-so-funny concept....

P.S.: I didnt realized that Celestine resurect immediately, and not at the start of the next turn like it used to be. Which means she can now die, resurect and die again in the same turn if the ennemy can pull it off. That's a bummer.

I don't think there is a RAW argument against it. It needs to be FAQ'd. For now though, SOB are the most OP army.

on a slightly more conventional note.

How about...

Spearhead detachment.
2x Canoness
2x Imagifier
2x Rets, HBs
3x Exorcist

820 points

Putting a Canoness and Imagifiers between the Exos and the Rets infront of the characters to add more dakka and tank wounds.

A nice little fire base giving you re-roll ones to hit on everything and 2x 50/50 chance of double shooting the Rets.

And if you really want to get crazy, if an exorcist fluffs it's D6 shots on like a 1 or a 2 spend a command point and reroll it.

Drider wrote:
on a slightly more conventional note.

How about...

Spearhead detachment.
2x Canoness
2x Imagifier
2x Rets, HBs
3x Exorcist

820 points

Putting a Canoness and Imagifiers between the Exos and the Rets infront of the characters to add more dakka and tank wounds.

A nice little fire base giving you re-roll ones to hit on everything and 2x 50/50 chance of double shooting the Rets.

And if you really want to get crazy, if an exorcist fluffs it's D6 shots on like a 1 or a 2 spend a command point and reroll it.

Although I would split that into two spearheads and bring more HB rets and imagifers.

The imagifers work on the Exorcists, btw.

I think I posted the Spearhead spam list a page or so ago.

Yeah, you could totally expand this up the way to make a gunline list. We're probably still a bit meh at gunlines in the grand scheme of things but it's a lot more doable without having to pay a troop tax for every 3 heavy slots.

I was reading that whole exchange about the imagifiers.... My opinion is that it doesn't work like that. how can a unit without Keyword AoF use AoF even though the imagifier and AoF wording is so loose. If GW FAQ it and say it's legit then i'm totally spamming imagifiers and penitent engines. double move those bitches all over the table.

Penitent Engines don't have Order as a keyword, so it wouldn't work on them.

Act of faith is not a keyword. Its a special rule some models have.


Penitent engines do not have the Order keyword so no luck using AOF on them.

- Acts of Faith. Hoo boy. I am going to type out the rules for this since this will get nit-picky.

"Acts of Faith

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the acts of faith ability can perform an act of faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one act of faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

Hand: The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase.

DG: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the shooting phase.

Passion: The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, immediately pile in and attack as if it were the fight phase.

Spirit: One model in the unit recovers D3 lost wounds, or you can return a single slain model to the unit with 1 wound remaining."

Okay, so one unit, anywhere on the battlefield with the AoF ability (which is just the infantry basically, Celestine, Canoness, Imagifer, Hospitaller, Dialogus, BSS, Seraphim, Celestians, Repentia, Mistress of Repentance, Retributors, Dominions) gets to do one of those acts per turn.

Now here's the fun part.

Celestine: "at the start of any of your turns, you can pick a friendly Adepta Sororitas unit within 6" of Celestine and perform an act of faith with it. This is in addition to the act of faith you are normally allowed to perform in a turn."

Imagifer: "Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 4+ you can pick a friendly <Order> unit within 6" of this model and perform an act of faith iwth it. This is in addition to the act of faith you are normally allowed to use in a turn."


So both Celestine and Imagifer modify who is targetable by the Act of Faith special rule. Who, you might ask, in your army has the 'Adepta Sororitas' rule? Well, everyone I listed above, plus: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist. Same is true for the Ordo special rule.

This all makes sense to me.

One of them is free and is a little limited in it's application while the others are more flexible given that you are paying for them.

For 40 points you get one on a 4+
For 250 points you get one automatically without having to roll.

I could see them releasing other, more expensive models, that give you one on a 3+ or even special units doing this forcing us to buy new models eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disembark:

Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves...


Acts of Faith

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Act of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list....

There are distinctive terms in the rules now to define the following:

A Battle Round is Two turns
A turn is 6 phases
A phase can be Movement, Psychic, Shooting, Charge, Fight or Morale

Now, the Start of your Turn is not a phase itself. Its the Start of your turn.
A unit cannot Disembark in the Movement Phase if the transport moved.

If your transport moved at the Start of your turn, it did not do so in the Movement phase, as such you are allowed to disembark before your transport moves in the Movement Phase.


The same seems to be true for Dominions. They are moving before any phases have begun. They can as such move 12 with their special rule and disembark before the transport moves in the next phase


Is there a way to contradict this RAW?

I think that's a good read.

Drider wrote:
Yeah, you could totally expand this up the way to make a gunline list. We're probably still a bit meh at gunlines in the grand scheme of things but it's a lot more doable without having to pay a troop tax for every 3 heavy slots.

I was reading that whole exchange about the imagifiers.... My opinion is that it doesn't work like that. how can a unit without Keyword AoF use AoF even though the imagifier and AoF wording is so loose. If GW FAQ it and say it's legit then i'm totally spamming imagifiers and penitent engines. double move those bitches all over the table.

If it was just imagifiers I would think it was a mistake but celestine's is also very specific so I think it's deliberate and frankly completely brilliant design.

Is it still possible to add a single Imperial Knight to a battalion force?

Also, other than for command points, is there a reason to bring Troops Sisters anymore?

There's a LOW detachment that you could add.

And no.

 pretre wrote:
There's a LOW detachment that you could add.

And no.

You're gonna want them if you do a gunline style list because they're cheap bubblewrap to stop first turn charges.

You will want Sisters once there are enough stratagems that are worth maximizing command points for.

Right now they are fairly lackluster

ERJAK wrote:

 pretre wrote:
There's a LOW detachment that you could add.

And no.

You're gonna want them if you do a gunline style list because they're cheap bubblewrap to stop first turn charges.

Retributors are just as cheap and can take 4 heavies. I'd rather take groups of them for bubble wrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voldrak wrote:
You will want Sisters once there are enough stratagems that are worth maximizing command points for.

Right now they are fairly lackluster

Yeah, if they add some stratagem better than what we have, I'll think about it. Right now, I just save it for rerolls on Celestine's return.

 pretre wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 pretre wrote:
There's a LOW detachment that you could add.

And no.

You're gonna want them if you do a gunline style list because they're cheap bubblewrap to stop first turn charges.

Retributors are just as cheap and can take 4 heavies. I'd rather take groups of them for bubble wrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voldrak wrote:
You will want Sisters once there are enough stratagems that are worth maximizing command points for.

Right now they are fairly lackluster

Yeah, if they add some stratagem better than what we have, I'll think about it. Right now, I just save it for rerolls on Celestine's return.

Being able to take 4 heavies isn't as big as the 5 extra bodies, especially since you wouldn't take that many in a unit meant to die. That said, the could have definitely done more with the basic battlesister.

So here's a quick 2000pt mechanized list I put together. I've always enjoyed playing mech with my Sisters...

Celestine
Canoness, plasma pistol
5 Sisters, Immolator, multimelta
5 Sisters, Immolator, multimelta
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Knight Crusader, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapidfire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubbers

This list gives 3 CPs, and my 2 AoF per turn will be used to shoot 2 Exorcists prior to the Shooting Phase
Celestine and the Canoness can set up close to the Exorcists to give them 5++ and mini twin-linked (reroll to-hits of 1)

 davidgr33n wrote:
So here's a quick 2000pt mechanized list I put together. I've always enjoyed playing mech with my Sisters...

Celestine
Canoness, plasma pistol
5 Sisters, Immolator, multimelta
5 Sisters, Immolator, multimelta
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
5 Sisters, Immolator, Immo Flamer
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Knight Crusader, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapidfire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubbers

This list gives 3 CPs, and my 2 AoF per turn will be used to shoot 2 Exorcists prior to the Shooting Phase
Celestine and the Canoness can set up close to the Exorcists to give them 5++ and mini twin-linked (reroll to-hits of 1)

Turn AoF can't be used on vehicles. Only Celestine's and imagifiers.

My attempt at double vanguard:


Celestine Geminae Geminae
15 Battle Sisters Heavy Flamer Flamer Combi-Flamer
Imagifier
Imagifier
5 Dominions Flamer Flamer Melta Melta Combi-Flamer
5 Dominions Flamer Flamer Melta Melta Combi-Flamer
Rhino Stormbolter Stormbolter
10 Seraphims Hand Flamers Hand Flamers Plasma Pistol Power Sword
Exorcist HKM


Canoness
Imagifier
5 Seraphims Hand Flamers Hand Flamers
5 Seraphims Hand Flamers Hand Flamers
5 Seraphims Hand Flamers Hand Flamers
5 Seraphims Hand Flamers Hand Flamers
5 Dominions Flamer Flamer Melta Melta Combi-Flamer
5 Dominions Flamer Flamer Melta Melta Combi-Flamer
Rhino Stormbolter Stormbolter
Exorcist HKM


Dominions squads are going in pairs in the two rhinos available. Once these squads come out, it's a lot of concentrated firepower.

Plenty of fast moving troops to jump on objectives and a squad of sisters to stay behind and provide a line of defense so the Exorcists don't get charged.

I'm not sure how much I like doubling up in vehicles. Seems like an eggs in one basket situation.

Agreed, it's risky, especially if you end up going second.

Those two transports saved however are extra seraphim squads on the table whom have an easier time staying alive in cover than those transports might have.




I am honestly so hyped to play my first game right now. Once we have more data on how we play against other armies we will be able to optimize.

I think with the consistently high damage and good survivability it has an immo could function as a ghetto dominion squad that's just really freakin fast. HB immos are actually pretty darn cheap for how much mobile firepower you get out of them.

Gonna be an interesting goddam edition that's for sure

Yeah, I was looking at HB immos with an extra SB for funsies.

I don't like double vanguard/spearhead/outrider because I want to have re-rolls for Celestine, for Exorcists, and for Acts of Faith. Celestine now has a 1-in-6 chance of not coming back compared to a 1-in-12. I also want re-rolls for the Exorcists, to give me a more consistent output. Short of 2500, I don't think I'll be able to get the Brigade, so Battalion+Spearhead+Outrider seems decent to me.

Would trading out 3 Battle Sisters Squads at 175 Ea, for an additional Exorcists or Dominions or such be worth the 2 CP?

Yes. You get 3 CP to start with. You get 2 from double Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead.

Save one for getting Celestine back up and use the others for crucial rerolls.

It isn't worth taking all those BSS when you can get better squads for the same cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow. So I was curious. Can you fit an effective Brigade in 1500? Yep.

C&G - 250
Canoness - 45
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
Imag - 40
Imag - 40
Imag - 40
5 Sera, 2 HF - 79
5 Sera, 2 HF - 79
5 Sera, 2 HF - 79
10 BSS - 90
10 BSS - 90
10 BSS - 90
10 BSS - 90
10 BSS - 90
10 BSS - 90
1492

 pretre wrote:
- Acts of Faith. Hoo boy. I am going to type out the rules for this since this will get nit-picky.

"Acts of Faith

Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the acts of faith ability can perform an act of faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one act of faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

Hand: The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase.

DG: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the shooting phase.

Passion: The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, immediately pile in and attack as if it were the fight phase.

Spirit: One model in the unit recovers D3 lost wounds, or you can return a single slain model to the unit with 1 wound remaining."

Okay, so one unit, anywhere on the battlefield with the AoF ability (which is just the infantry basically, Celestine, Canoness, Imagifer, Hospitaller, Dialogus, BSS, Seraphim, Celestians, Repentia, Mistress of Repentance, Retributors, Dominions) gets to do one of those acts per turn.

Now here's the fun part.

Celestine: "at the start of any of your turns, you can pick a friendly Adepta Sororitas unit within 6" of Celestine and perform an act of faith with it. This is in addition to the act of faith you are normally allowed to perform in a turn."

Imagifer: "Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns; on a 4+ you can pick a friendly <Order> unit within 6" of this model and perform an act of faith iwth it. This is in addition to the act of faith you are normally allowed to use in a turn."


So both Celestine and Imagifer modify who is targetable by the Act of Faith special rule. Who, you might ask, in your army has the 'Adepta Sororitas' rule? Well, everyone I listed above, plus: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist. Same is true for the Ordo special rule.

They can't be modified by Celestine of Imagifiers, but Crusaders also gain access to your once per turn Acts of Faith now.

I'm been wondering about immo spam. With Immolation flamers you're looking at 24+D6 threat range before you even factor in stuff like vanguard moves.

 pretre wrote:
I'm not sure how much I like doubling up in vehicles. Seems like an eggs in one basket situation.

Agreed, and if the vehicle goes boom before it delivers its payload you could potentially lose both units.

Taikishi wrote:

They can't be modified by Celestine of Imagifiers, but Crusaders also gain access to your once per turn Acts of Faith now.

Good catch on the crusaders. I hadn't noticed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drider wrote:
I'm been wondering about immo spam. With Immolation flamers you're looking at 24+D6 threat range before you even factor in stuff like vanguard moves.

The problem is how expensive they are.

Not really a Sisters player (but Max respect to those who do!) So here's a little .gif to remind us WHY sisters are fething awesome:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Not really a Sisters player (but Max respect to those who do!) So here's a little .gif to remind us WHY sisters are fething awesome:

Ok so thats awesome - thanks

The problem is how expensive they are.

consider:

Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
5x Domions w/ melta and combi melta
5x Immo w/ Immolation flamer
1450 points

Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
6x Dominion w/ melta and combi(5 combi melta or 3 plas / 3 melta)
6x Immo w/ immolation flamer
2x Exorcist
under 2000 points.

Drider wrote:

The problem is how expensive they are.

consider:

Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
5x Domions w/ melta and combi melta
5x Immo w/ Immolation flamer
1450 points

Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
6x Dominion w/ melta and combi(5 combi melta or 3 plas / 3 melta)
6x Immo w/ immolation flamer
2x Exorcist
under 2000 points.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Yes, those are what you get for those points and I feel like it is expensive to buy that many Immos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love that picture but it bothers me that the melta shoots flame.

And some of us can't legally field our army without fielding that many Immos due to "not enough models"

For my part, I have a Repressor, a Repressor I haven't started building yet, 3 Exorcists, and I believe 3-4 Immolators and either 2 or 3 Rhinos

Fair enough. I'm still trying to decide if they are just more expensive or more expensive and not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, off of that idea, what about a walking Dominion crusade?

Take 10 strong Dom squads, Vanguard them before the first turn and then walk a wall of them forward. Take Imag and Canoness behind them to make them more killy and you'll be in your opponents face on turn 1. I figure you could probably get 6 10 mans with Meltas, 4 Imag, Celestine and a Canoness in 1500.

Even if I had that many models, or meltaguns (I don't on either), I still don't like it. We're still T3 and now our armor saves are worse. The boxes protect the payload.

That said, GW expects games to go back up to 2k like they were in 2nd edition. Certainly there's more wiggle room for vehicles at 2k?

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
Not really a Sisters player (but Max respect to those who do!) So here's a little .gif to remind us WHY sisters are fething awesome:

That's amazing. I love it.

On tactica, what do you think would be a good balance of flamers/storm bolters to meltaguns? I'm looking at having a pair of Exorcists and 3 Melta Dominion team with Multimelta Immolators in 2k, and I'm not sure if that's enough antitank power to dispense with a bunch of CQC troops in Rhinos, considering that we don't really have anything with staying power in assault save Celestine. But I'm also worried that if I have too many more AT guns, then I won't be able to kill what gets out of the rhinos.

I'm concerned about mixing weapons in squads. Split fire helps, but I think you still have to wrap up one squad before moving on. If you run a flamer melta mix in a Dom squad and the meltas don't pop a transport, the others may not have much to do. I think I'm inclined to focus and go for overkill.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm concerned about mixing weapons in squads. Split fire helps, but I think you still have to wrap up one squad before moving on. If you run a flamer melta mix in a Dom squad and the meltas don't pop a transport, the others may not have much to do. I think I'm inclined to focus and go for overkill.

I won't be mixing weapons. But how many meltaguns do I need on the board vs how many flamers/storm bolters? I hypothetically have 1 turn to break up a Rhino rush, so I need to be able to take out at least some of the tanks, but I also need to have weapons that can kill the people who get out of the tanks.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm concerned about mixing weapons in squads. Split fire helps, but I think you still have to wrap up one squad before moving on. If you run a flamer melta mix in a Dom squad and the meltas don't pop a transport, the others may not have much to do. I think I'm inclined to focus and go for overkill.

I won't be mixing weapons. But how many meltaguns do I need on the board vs how many flamers/storm bolters? I hypothetically have 1 turn to break up a Rhino rush, so I need to be able to take out at least some of the tanks, but I also need to have weapons that can kill the people who get out of the tanks.

Ah... it must have been a different list that I saw with the mixed squads. I used to run 3 squads with 4 meltas each... I also messed with dropping one melta out of each, and also leaving one squad at home in lieu of Seraphim, both of which worked well enough. I'd say 8-12 in an 1850 game, assuming some multi melta Immos as well.

New forgeworld 8th Edition website does not appear to have a Sisters as a faction.......

On the regular GW site it falls under adeptus ministorum now.

Any reason why?

Taikishi wrote:
That said, GW expects games to go back up to 2k like they were in 2nd edition. Certainly there's more wiggle room for vehicles at 2k?

Yes, at 2k, you have a lot more wiggle room.

So apparently unless I'm reading it wrong, they're bringing back FW repressors?

So rhinos have 10 wounds. How many melta shot would you need to cripple/kill one now that splitfire is important.

3.5 wounds if long range and 5 wounds per short range. Assume 1 out of every 3 that shoot will miss... and you could miss the wound roll... so 1 dominion squad, 4 melta, should take out 1 rhino per turn.

 Melissia wrote:
So apparently unless I'm reading it wrong, they're bringing back FW repressors?

Cool

Where does it say that? thanks

war wrote:
So rhinos have 10 wounds. How many melta shot would you need to cripple/kill one now that splitfire is important.

3.5 wounds if long range and 5 wounds per short range. Assume 1 out of every 3 that shoot will miss... and you could miss the wound roll... so 1 dominion squad, 4 melta, should take out 1 rhino per turn.

The cripple/kill distinction is now an important one. Once you do the 5th wound to a Rhino, it drops to a speed that most infantry can walk. Without fire points, the occupants are only going to want to stay embarked if it can limp to an objective. With the 8th wound, you can start to consider ignoring it until late in the game.

Here:


Very last entry.

Nice. Hopefully they will still be good.

 Melissia wrote:
Here:


Very last entry.

Some good news

The Celestians are now the bodyguard unit. They work like Drones do now: they absorb wounds for a character as well as having two attacks.

So essentially now a command squad

But remember that IIRC their bodyguard function is for all sororitas characters-- imagifiers, hospitallers, and dialogous included.

 Jancoran wrote:
The Celestians are now the bodyguard unit. They work like Drones do now: they absorb wounds for a character as well as having two attacks.

So essentially now a command squad

Was this just an observation or in response to something?

From what I've seen there is really no reason to take them for anything.

In a mech list, definitely not. But I can see value of having them as a long line behind your groundpounder gunline, keeping your hospitallers, dialogous, and imagifiers alive in the face of snipers. as you stretch them out as much as possible to maximize their aura. Hell, the Imagifier is basically just an expensive celestian with an act of faith booster, so losing a celestian to save them doesn't even really reduce your firepower much.

No longer do they have anti-psycher defenses apparently, Sisters of Silence have that now.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
No longer do they have anti-psycher defenses apparently, Sisters of Silence have that now.

They can dispel with a single D6.

 Melissia wrote:
In a mech list, definitely not. But I can see value of having them as a long line behind your groundpounder gunline, keeping your hospitallers, dialogous, and imagifiers alive in the face of snipers. as you stretch them out as much as possible to maximize their aura. Hell, the Imagifier is basically just an expensive celestian with an act of faith booster, so losing a celestian to save them doesn't even really reduce your firepower much.

Okay, I had not thought about snipers. I see this as their legit role now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so at the Gamer Garage sale today, I picked up 12 more HB bits that I can use to convert to HB sisters, which means something like this will probably be my 1500 list:

Outrider 1
StC and the G - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Seraphim with 2 HF - 79
5 Seraphim with 2 HF - 79
5 Seraphim with PP - 62

Outrider 2
Canoness - 45
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
Imagifer - 40
5 Seraphim with PP - 62
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in Immo with SB - 225
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in Immo with SB - 225
1499

How would you use Seraphim now?

Their sky strike doesn't land them close enough to use their hand famers.

On the table. Screen for big C and then run off and snag objectives / harass. The PP squad will probably sky strike.

You could also hold them for objective grabbing.

Pistols can be shot in hand to hand. Tiring up stuff may be worthwhile, but they'll still die to dedicated assault units. Melta pistols and flame pistols are interesting.

 pretre wrote:
On the table. Screen for big C and then run off and snag objectives / harass. The PP squad will probably sky strike.

You could also hold them for objective grabbing.

When you say PP do you mean Plasma pistols?
Because only the Superior can take a Plasma Pistol.
The other can only take Bolt, Metla or Flamer pistols.

I am aware.

The melta pistols might be worth taking for character hunting.

 Melissia wrote:
The melta pistols might be worth taking for character hunting.

They aren't bad, but the 6" thing and the cost is what put me off them.

So anyone else notice that the entire section for sisters on the gw website is gone? Or did they move it in with something g else

Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas units are now both under Adeptus Ministorum.

Anyone think we need an new 8th Edition thread to clear out a few years of now irrelevant post on SOB Tactics?

Yea, we did that when the last edition rolled out. Probably worth it when the new edition drops


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So can immolators fire overwatch now? Seems pretty strong

I think a new thread would be a good idea.

war wrote:
Yea, we did that when the last edition rolled out. Probably worth it when the new edition drops


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So can immolators fire overwatch now? Seems pretty strong

Everything can including Exorcists

If we are taking suggestions for a new thread may I suggest the title "New New Sisters of Battle Codex Tactica"

"Still No Plastic Surgery : Sister of Battle Tactica for 8th Ed"

war wrote:
Pistols can be shot in hand to hand.

Yeah that thing is very useless in reality. Especially on units with fly, who automatically have hit and run. It might be more useful on a big BSS squad, defensively, if enough of them are still alive after the first round of combat…

I honestly can't see a use for Seraphim other than objective grabbers.

Rerollable 2++ death star with Celestine .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

war wrote:
Pistols can be shot in hand to hand.

Yeah that thing is very useless in reality. Especially on units with fly, who automatically have hit and run. It might be more useful on a big BSS squad, defensively, if enough of them are still alive after the first round of combat…

Some of them are still useful. You don't always want to charge out of combat every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:
I honestly can't see a use for Seraphim other than objective grabbers.

They are GREAT for zooming around and shooting the crap out of stuff. Also, keep in mind you can fall back and still shoot, jump over enemy units, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Rerollable 2++ death star with Celestine .

My TO shut that down when I asked him, which was the right thing to do.

One of the employees at our FLGS threatened to beat anyone who brought that against her. My only argument (half-joking, of course) was that I already have two Celestine models because she had two different sets of rules in 7th!

A neat unit I'm thinking of adding is 40-50 Conscripts and a Commissar (150 - 180) for bubble wrap. Redemptionists, of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spearhead Detachment
St C and the G - 250
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
5 Rets with 4 HB and SB - 89
Exorcist - 160
Exorcist - 160
Exorcist - 160
5 Seras with 2 HF and Chainsword - 79
5 Seras with 2 HF and Chainsword - 79


Vanguard Detachment

Canoness - 45
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Priest - 35
Commissar - 30
40 Conscripts - 120
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo with IF and SB - 225
5 Doms with 4 Melta in Immo with IF and SB - 225

2k

Use the Conscripts (redemptionists) as bubble wrap around the heavies.

 dan2026 wrote:
I honestly can't see a use for Seraphim other than objective grabbers.

I can. A unit locked in combat doesn't get to shoot after it falls back next turn. Jump across the board using AoF, shoot, then multicharge across the entire enemy gunline.

You can leave combat at will without penalty, because of fly, so you can always shoot the enemy but their front rank won't be able to shoot you. You can also AoF to make them shoot to finish off the unit they're in battle with, allowing them to attack the second enemy rank.

Also, what are the rules for debarking from transports destroyed in melee?

Same as normal debarkation. Just get out and take your lumps.

 pretre wrote:
Same as normal debarkation. Just get out and take your lumps.

Only if you can't be within 3" from the hull and outside 1" of the enemy you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

war wrote:
Pistols can be shot in hand to hand.

Yeah that thing is very useless in reality. Especially on units with fly, who automatically have hit and run. It might be more useful on a big BSS squad, defensively, if enough of them are still alive after the first round of combat…

It's useful on large groups of seraphim who get charged, so long as they have maxed out pistols and at least 3 models survive.

 pretre wrote:
Same as normal debarkation. Just get out and take your lumps.

Here's the thing: right now:
P81: "any surviving passengers are not locked in combat with the unit assaulting their vehicle"
P82: "If, even by performing an emergency disembarkation, some models are unable to disembark, then any models that cannot disembark are removed as casualties."

Currently, I know an Ork player whose entire strategy is to make a ring of Orks around an enemy transport. Since it is illegal to place a model within 1" of an enemy model if you're not in combat, the disembarkation range from a wrecked vehicle is reduced to 3", most of or the entire unit within the transport is destroyed with their transport.

Also, the problem with jumping out is you can't re-assault same turn. Not a huge problem, but something to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Same as normal debarkation. Just get out and take your lumps.

Here's the thing: right now:
P81: "any surviving passengers are not locked in combat with the unit assaulting their vehicle"
P82: "If, even by performing an emergency disembarkation, some models are unable to disembark, then any models that cannot disembark are removed as casualties."

Currently, I know an Ork player whose entire strategy is to make a ring of Orks around an enemy transport. Since it is illegal to place a model within 1" of an enemy model if you're not in combat, the disembarkation range from a wrecked vehicle is reduced to 3", the most of or the entire unit within the transport is destroyed with their transport.

Yeah, fair enough. Don't get assaulted while in your vehicle.

 pretre wrote:
Also, the problem with jumping out is you can't re-assault same turn. Not a huge problem, but something to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Same as normal debarkation. Just get out and take your lumps.

Here's the thing: right now:
P81: "any surviving passengers are not locked in combat with the unit assaulting their vehicle"
P82: "If, even by performing an emergency disembarkation, some models are unable to disembark, then any models that cannot disembark are removed as casualties."

Currently, I know an Ork player whose entire strategy is to make a ring of Orks around an enemy transport. Since it is illegal to place a model within 1" of an enemy model if you're not in combat, the disembarkation range from a wrecked vehicle is reduced to 3", the most of or the entire unit within the transport is destroyed with their transport.

Yeah, fair enough. Don't get assaulted while in your vehicle.

If this condition holds, we could do this with seraphim too.

Surround a transport so it can't retreat, surround it, then bring in something that can deal the final blow in melee combat, like Repentia, or a Penitent Engine. Because Seraphim can cross the board in one turn, we could potentially tie down a number of transport tanks equal to the number of Seraphim squads brought on turn one, then destroy them and their transported unit. You can't tank shock your way out of assault anymore.

I'm leaning toward a Vindicare being an auto-include. Killing characters is one of the most important things this edition.

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm leaning toward a Vindicare being an auto-include. Killing characters is one of the most important things this edition.

Vindicare was the least impressive of the lot for me. I like the Callidus and Eversor.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
I honestly can't see a use for Seraphim other than objective grabbers.

I can. A unit locked in combat doesn't get to shoot after it falls back next turn. Jump across the board using AoF, shoot, then multicharge across the entire enemy gunline.

You can leave combat at will without penalty, because of fly, so you can always shoot the enemy but their front rank won't be able to shoot you. You can also AoF to make them shoot to finish off the unit they're in battle with, allowing them to attack the second enemy rank.

Also, what are the rules for debarking from transports destroyed in melee?

Hmm thats a good idea.
Tying up the enemies army and stopping them shooting is a solid plan.

I also like the Vindicare. I have 2 that I plan on putting towards Character blasting duties.
It helps that he is now a lot cheaper in points. 90 vs 150 is quite a saving!

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm leaning toward a Vindicare being an auto-include. Killing characters is one of the most important things this edition.

Vindicare was the least impressive of the lot for me. I like the Callidus and Eversor.

They all look pretty good, but sniping the characters is crucial. Most units fall apart fast without character support. My group has about 20 games under it's belt and wiping away characters asap seems to be generally agreed upon.

Well, that is good to know. I have one game down so far.

It really depends on the opponent's army too. Sniper's are a non-threat to Tyranids outside of trying to off a Broodlord, as their best characters are also over the "safe" wound-count.

Other armies, like Orks, can be DRASTICALLY reduced in usefulness with just a handful of snipers.

I'm going to try this tonight.

BN:
Canoness
Canoness
3x10 Sisters, HF, flamer, combi-flamer
2x Exorcist
Penitent Engine, buzz blades, 2x HF
2x 5 dominions, 4 melta, combi-melta, immolator with twin multimelta
2x Imagifer

Vanguard:
Celestine
Mistress of Repentance
9 Repentia
8 Repentia

1992 points, 7 CP

Let us know. That's certainly not what i would run, but am curious.

Crost post from army lists, but what do you think about this:

Well I just read at BOLS and confirmed for myself that Celestine isnt a 0-1 choice. The Emperor truly protects!

With his manyfould divine guidence, even the untrained masses can take on the forces of evil and truimph!

1850 Imperial Battallion with two High Command Detachments (5 CP)

[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] St. Celestine /w 1 Gemina
[list] Company Commander
[list] Commissar
[list] Priest
[list] 50 Conscripts
[list] 50 Conscripts
[list] 5 Sisters /w Heavy Bolter

Even if your enemy might have less units and thus the first turn, he'll hardly manage to kill 100 conscripts in a single turn. Better hide the commissar though. On your turn, you have 7 24" flying movement chargers of death hopping around killing his important units first. Who happen to come back when killed, first by their 2+ divine roll and after that by killing the saint before her gemina and then Act of Faithing her back with d3 wounds.

Ossa wrote:
Well I just read at BOLS and confirmed for myself that Celestine isnt a 0-1 choice. The Emperor truly protects!

BOLS is about a week behind. And no sane TO is going to allow multiple Celestines without a FAQ.

Also, we discussed this a while back, if you're going to take multiples, make sure to take Seraphim.

Yeah Unless GW rule it so - thats not going to work....

Allthough maybe they really want to sell those Trimuverate boxes.....

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah Unless GW rule it so - thats not going to work....

Allthough maybe they really want to sell those Trimuverate boxes.....

The unfortunate part is that it does work UNLESS they speak up. Just no one will allow it. lol

ERJAK wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

war wrote:
Pistols can be shot in hand to hand.

Yeah that thing is very useless in reality. Especially on units with fly, who automatically have hit and run. It might be more useful on a big BSS squad, defensively, if enough of them are still alive after the first round of combat…

It's useful on large groups of seraphim who get charged, so long as they have maxed out pistols and at least 3 models survive.

Large groups of seraphim that get charged have two options during their next move phase:
- either they fall back, shoot and charge to be sure to fight first
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and then maybe fight first maybe last
The second option is strictly worse than the first one.
Hence shooting pistols in combat is useless for Seraphims.

if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

I think the Repentia/Mistress would be better off in a transport, either a Rhino or an Exorcist to help them reach combat.
Maybe with a Priest too to get them that extra attack.

But to be honest with you I think Death Cult Assassins are the better Ministorum combat unit.
Supported by a priest.
They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Large groups of seraphim that get charged have two options during their next move phase:
- either they fall back, shoot and charge to be sure to fight first
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and then maybe fight first maybe last
The second option is strictly worse than the first one.
Hence shooting pistols in combat is useless for Seraphims.

If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

- either they fall back, shoot and allow the rest of the army to shoot
- or they stay in combat, shoot, and fight again, locking the unit down


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
if I ran 2 squads of 9 Repentia supported behind a Mistress, all behind a blob of conscripts, how valid/threatening is that from all of your vantage points?

I think the Repentia/Mistress would be better off in a transport, either a Rhino or an Exorcist to help them reach combat.
Maybe with a Priest too to get them that extra attack.

But to be honest with you I think Death Cult Assassins are the better Ministorum combat unit.
Supported by a priest.
They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

Crusaders are a bit slower, but get AoF.

And Repentia are just waaaay too expensive.

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

They both cost the same amount of points (17) but I think the Assassins are flat out better.

Crusaders are a bit slower, but get AoF.

And Repentia are just waaaay too expensive.

Hmm you make a great point there.
Crusaders get AoF, Storm Shield and Power Swords for 15 points.
1 less movement and strength and 2 less attacks as DC Assassins.
But better armour penetration and that 3++ is mighty sexy, yes it is.

Either way they are both miles better than Repentia.

sad panda :( I have 1 crusader, 2 death cults, and 17 repentia...I shall press on regardless and inform you all of the mounting causalities of the scantily clad.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
sad panda :( I have 1 crusader, 2 death cults, and 17 repentia...I shall press on regardless and inform you all of the mounting causalities of the scantily clad.

Do yourself a favor and get any set of plastic fantasy infantry with shields. Bam you've got crusaders.

haha great idea!!

Also side note here, while i was lamenting the loss of the Sororitas command squad ( as I ran them with dual heavy flamers in a Repressor) I suppose I can do that still for cheaper with Retributors now. They are just worse at CC, but who am I kidding I hardly used them for CC anyway. Do loose a heavy support slot doing that though

 pretre wrote:
If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

I thought fly allowed them to do that.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
haha great idea!!

Also side note here, while i was lamenting the loss of the Sororitas command squad ( as I ran them with dual heavy flamers in a Repressor) I suppose I can do that still for cheaper with Retributors now. They are just worse at CC, but who am I kidding I hardly used them for CC anyway. Do loose a heavy support slot doing that though

There's no 'losing' heavy support slots. Just take a spearhead and all HB rets.

As an aside, I managed to trade for Chaos marine HB, which look to work perfect with Heavy Weapon sisters and I will be fielding 12 or so HB in my 2k list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
If Seraphim fall back, they can't charge again that turn.

I thought fly allowed them to do that.

Not that I saw. Just shoot.

Find me a page reference though, if you can.

Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

 pretre wrote:
Let us know. That's certainly not what i would run, but am curious.

Ended up playing a Necron list with 3 command barges, 2 ghost arcs, one monolith, 5 wraiths, 3x 10 warriors and 9 immortals. Mission was Big Guns and the Necron player choose Vanguard because he could get two in his corner and force me to attack towards the center of the table (knowing the Necron player would pick deployment, I had deliberately spaced my two objectives to prevent him from getting three in any zone).

Mixed reviews for the list.

The Repentia are still too fragile. I was able to use Act of Faith movement to get a turn one charge with one unit into a warrior blob that had advanced towards center and my opponent spent the CP to interrupt the charging fighters to swing the warriors first (I had fought a penitent engine combat first since the engine had charged the wraiths). Stock warriors hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s simply decimated them. The other unit had been vaporized by Necron fire on turn one. A Rhino would probably help, but that pushes the total cost for a unit of 9 into dominion range and I don't think they add enough utility.

The Penitent Engine was really good. The dice were fluky (I missed a lot of attacks and rolled a lot of 1s when trying to wound, but made a lot of 5+ saves in return) but he managed to frustrate the wraiths enough that the Necron player decided to abandon the combat rather than grind it out. The automatic damage of 3 is fantastic and between buzz blades and heavy flamers they pack a decent punch. Well worth the 129 points. Movement 7" is also fast enough to make it to combat relatively unhurt.

The foot sisters did well. With two canonesses it was easy to keep them buffed up and when the command barges came close, 3d6 flamer hits plus 16 boltguns rerolling ones does a surprising amount of damage. They were really good at clearing out Necron warrior squads too.

Acts of Faith are awesome. Out of sequence actions are huge right now. I twice freed up Celestine with a bonus fight phase to kill the 1-2 models tying her up and then took a normal turn and dominion out of phase shooting killed a command barge.

There is probably some math to be done on DC Assassins vs Crusaders. I think they both have their uses.

Repentia sadly not.

So the old mixed units of Ministorum or Inquisition agents are gone, but because of the new transport rules you can still deliver a mix of models to a spot on the board with a particular purpose. What about a Priest and a combination of Crusaders and DCAs plus an Inquisitor. Extra attacks from the Priest, LD 9 from the Inquisitor, pretty good AP modifiers on the attack, plus rerolls from Zealot, good saves with the Storm Shields... you could even fill empty seats with 3-wound Acolytes. Obviously your opponent can select targets at will in the shooting phase, but if the transport held up, they could almost arrive as a unit.

Downsides are being targeted individually, taking up multiple FoC slots, and giving up tons of VPs in certain missions. Is it even worth experimenting with?

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

Yes, SoF sucks at Denying.

Condemnor still exists though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
So the old mixed units of Ministorum or Inquisition agents are gone, but because of the new transport rules you can still deliver a mix of models to a spot on the board with a particular purpose. What about a Priest and a combination of Crusaders and DCAs plus an Inquisitor. Extra attacks from the Priest, LD 9 from the Inquisitor, pretty good AP modifiers on the attack, plus rerolls from Zealot, good saves with the Storm Shields... you could even fill empty seats with 3-wound Acolytes. Obviously your opponent can select targets at will in the shooting phase, but if the transport held up, they could almost arrive as a unit.

Downsides are being targeted individually, taking up multiple FoC slots, and giving up tons of VPs in certain missions. Is it even worth experimenting with?

Yeah, I just don't see it working that well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
The Repentia are still too fragile. I was able to use Act of Faith movement to get a turn one charge with one unit into a warrior blob that had advanced towards center and my opponent spent the CP to interrupt the charging fighters to swing the warriors first (I had fought a penitent engine combat first since the engine had charged the wraiths). Stock warriors hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s simply decimated them. The other unit had been vaporized by Necron fire on turn one. A Rhino would probably help, but that pushes the total cost for a unit of 9 into dominion range and I don't think they add enough utility.

A note here. The CP interrupt only works after a unit has swung on the charge. So you want to pick your fragile unit to swing first, then they can CP, then you do the rest of your chargers.

The Penitent Engine was really good. The dice were fluky (I missed a lot of attacks and rolled a lot of 1s when trying to wound, but made a lot of 5+ saves in return) but he managed to frustrate the wraiths enough that the Necron player decided to abandon the combat rather than grind it out. The automatic damage of 3 is fantastic and between buzz blades and heavy flamers they pack a decent punch. Well worth the 129 points. Movement 7" is also fast enough to make it to combat relatively unhurt.

Good to hear!

Acts of Faith are awesome. Out of sequence actions are huge right now. I twice freed up Celestine with a bonus fight phase to kill the 1-2 models tying her up and then took a normal turn and dominion out of phase shooting killed a command barge.

Bonus fight phase for Celestine is awesome. Also, the double move on turn 1 almost always gets you a charge.

What about taking the Culexus and/or Karamazov for the penalties to Psychic tests? If they get a -1 to 3 to their tests, suddenly beating them with a single d6 seems possible as a lot more tests will barely succeed?

On the whole though, I'm not 100% sure it's actually worth doing simply because psychic powers seem so weak this edition. There are a few very strong ones though, so maybe it's worth the added insurance against Eldar/Orks/Nids?

In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

It also helps mitigate their frailty since they aren't going to be out in the front lines. That is pretty much their one advantage of Death Cultist. Death Cultist get loads of attacks and inherent Zealot - Repentia can pay for a Mistress and get rerollable advance/charges and hits (which more than makes up for 4+ instead of 3+) Repentia also get more value out of the +1 Attack from Priests. Also, Repentia get Acts of Faith. Even if you kill half the unit, the other half can potentially fight twice - once before you have a chance to bring the fight back. Crusaders do too, but Crusaders are S3 - which means 6+ starting at toughness 6 and 5+ starting at toughness 4. The 3+ invulnerable is nice, no doubt but for counterchargers OR a unit that is hanging out in a transport, I don't think that will be quite good enough to make up for S3 vs S6.

Here is something worth discussing.

Should we aim to go First or are we fine with going Second in the turn order?


Going first means you can cripple key targets in your opponents army before they get a chance to react, especially with double shooting turns from acts of faith.
It does however limit you in the detachments you can use. Going for a Brigade almost necessarily means you will have more drops than your opponent since you have to go somewhat MSU.


Going second means you are giving your opponent possible turn 1, almost certainly turn 2 charges and these could tie up critical units of yours. He also gets to shoot you, removing some of your firepower, before you can return it.
It does however mean you don't have to care about the number of drops you have and can optimize for as many command points as possible. You also get the last word on objective grabbing.


I am curious to find out what people think based on the above. Do you want to try and get first turn? If so, what list will you bring? And if you're playing for the second turn, and objective grabbing, how are you going to make this happen?











Automatically Appended Next Post:
In line with my previous post, here is my attempt at going first with double outrider detachments



1 Celestine Geminae Geminae
1 Canoness

1 Imagifier

5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
9 Dominions Flamer Flamer Flamer Flamer Combi Flamer
1 Rhino Storm Bolter Storm Bolter

10 Retributors Multi Melta Multi Melta Multi Melta Multi Melta


1 Canoness

2 Imagifier

5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
5 Dominions Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun Meltagun
1 Immolator Immolation Flamer StormBolter
9 Dominions Flamer Flamer Flamer Flamer Combi Flamer
1 Rhino Storm Bolter Storm Bolter


1990 points out of 2000. Total of 11 drops.

All Immolator dominions scout forward. Disembark on their move phase and do their things. Could also move another 12 inch forward and disembark next turn.

Canonesses go with the Rhino Dominions. Celestine and the imagifiers AoF those Rhinos so they can move up, disembark and support the Immolator Dominions on first turn.

Imagifiers start on the edge of your deployment zone and move up turn one, possibly advancing to try and catch up with the rest of your army. They should be shielded by the Retributors. If anything this unit is a bait and if your opponent doesnt deal with it, turn 2 it's likely in his phase shooting 4 multi meltas twice due to the 3 imagifiers.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:
What about taking the Culexus and/or Karamazov for the penalties to Psychic tests? If they get a -1 to 3 to their tests, suddenly beating them with a single d6 seems possible as a lot more tests will barely succeed?

Not a fan of taking something to counter a minority of lists.

In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Voldrak: That's pretty standard Dom list. Keep in mind that sometimes you just won't get to go first though.

 pretre wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Our SoF anti-psychic ability seems pretty disappointing. Basically it's a 1.8% chance of denying a WC5 power (Smite most likely). It doesnt work on any power that has a WC of 6 or more, and I don't think there is any power with WC4 or less currently in the game.
And my beloved condemnor boltgun is gone, sad :-( I think it's time to call the Culexus hotline for anti-psy stuff.

Yes, SoF sucks at Denying.

Condemnor still exists though.

Yeah, but it changed drastically. It's not the psyker sniper it once was.
I just realized that i'm missing the point page for Sister in the leaks I downloaded, but if it's 1pts/condemnor like the inquisition one, it might be interesting to have every superior wielding one (if the psyker become a threatening enough part of the meta of course).

It's 1pt.

I can't decide how many exorcists are too many.

When you can't lift you army transport bag/box anymore, then it's too many.

 deviantduck wrote:
I can't decide how many exorcists are too many.

I think you want a mix of stuff. Exos are great but don't do horde well. HB rets though? They can handle that.

Heavy Bolters are pretty big winners in this edition. I might actuallu have to field some just because the horde armies scare me enough.

 pretre wrote:
In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.

I don't have access to the book at the moment-- what armor save do Crusaders have, or is it just the shield? Cause I'm seriously thinking of adapting some sword and board dnd models as a Crusaders squad if I can find some of the right scale.

The problem with repentias is not their damage output, it's how fragile they are.

It's over 200 points and close to 300 once you account for the Rhino to get them where they need to do.

There are units that are much more efficient for that point cost.

If you want to make them more resilient, while keep them in the spirit, they need the following changes:

Repentias gain Driven Forward by default. This should be on them and not granted by the mistress.


Mistresses Angelic Visage needs to apply to herself and any units of repentias within 6 inches.
Add a Special ability to the mistress where she can bring back 1d3 dead repentias back, to a single unit within 6 inches, at the beginning of your turn. Would be in character where she whips them back up to continue the fight.

Wishlist aside, 17 points a model for how fragile they are will not see them in any competitive lists. They will show up for fun once in awhile, but they're still a sub-optimal choice.

Yeah just take a penitent engine and a priest. Same amount of points as 8 repentia only with a 4+ save (no invul hurts but meh) and against anything T9 or lower it's 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 3s (2s against T5) with 3 damage with better rend and the double attack a pengine does 11.11 damage on average to a T6-9 3+ save model AND still has 2 heavy flamers AND gives you a priest buff AND doesn't waste AoFs.

Oh man, you don't even know. I put a pound of nuts in each of my vehicles. I was sick of the exo's being heavy and my rhinos and repressors light. So each vehicle is full with nuts that are glued in place.

ERJAK wrote:
Yeah just take a penitent engine and a priest. Same amount of points as 8 repentia only with a 4+ save (no invul hurts but meh) and against anything T9 or lower it's 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 3s (2s against T5) with 3 damage with better rend and the double attack a pengine does 11.11 damage on average to a T6-9 3+ save model AND still has 2 heavy flamers AND gives you a priest buff AND doesn't waste AoFs.

Priest doesn't buff the Engine It's not infantry. So it only gets 4 attacks.

The Penitent Engine is theoretically tougher than Repentia. It's also impossible to hide, will have trouble taking advantage of cover and is not substantially tougher when you consider the fact that it's gonna be eating a large portion of the anti-tank weaponry. Offense wise, I think the Penitent Engine isn't quite equal to a Priest backed squad of Repentia. If you get the extra round of combat half the time, on average it's similar to 6 attacks a turn. It has zealot so we will give it the reroll to hit. Should easily get 5 hits. Str 10 means it wounds on a 2+ all the way up to toughness 5. So pretty much any infantry/termies/bikers you are getting 4 wounds very reliably. AP -3 means 5+ to 6+ saves. So killing 3 Termies, and 3-4 bikers or 3+ save stuff. Against the same sort of stuff Repentia end up getting 8-12 kills. It's not even really close. The Engine has some other big advantages though of course. Toughness 6 4+ save and 7 wounds is much more resilient than the Repentia. Except if the enemy starts shooting it with Krak Missiles or Lascannons. 4 of those actually kills a Penitent Engine on average.

Which is why I think Repentia work better as counter chargers in a footslogging list. This goes for Death Cultists too since they are very similar, just better against different targets. You don't need the Rhino, so you can go with the full 10 of them. They will be hanging out behind the other sisters so you don't have to worry about incoming fire unless it ignores LOS.

Penitent Engines in a mech list? I think that's much more a potential option. You don't have to worry about keeping Priest/Mistresses/Imagifiers/Celestine in range. The enemies anti-tank is going to be spread thin between all the vehicles running around. Tasking 4 anti-tank weapons to the Penitent Engine has a much bigger opportunity cost than when they are gonna have nothing to shoot but the Penitent Engine or maybe an Exorcist. Though even that I'm not sure I would take in a footslogging list because again - every single anti-tank weapon the enemy has is going to have an open target.

Though if we are wishlisting, I think just giving them Angelic Visage would help a lot. That's a 30% chance to save, 55% with Celestine nearby. That puts them right near or surpassing the survivability of Death Cultists.

Why even waste time thinking about a footslog list? Sisters can't pull any kind of infantry heavy build off just based on having next to nothing to mitigate battleshock.

You go mech or you lose, the only question is 'how do i mitigate turn 1 charges.' The answer there is either Battle Sisters, Repentia, Death Cults, Crusaders, or Penitent Engines. Basic Battle Sisters are cheap bubblewrap but don't do much else. Repentia and death cult are killy but so fragile a stiff fart will knock out 2 units of either, crusaders are tough but hit like a wet noodle and Penitent engines fold hard under d6 damage attacks.

The Penitent Engine just has the best mix of survivability and damage output. Keep in mind the comparison you made from the previous wall of text is a 9 unit of repentia with a priest, which is approaching the cost of 2 pengines. Point for point repentia do significantly less damage which means you save all those points you spend buffing up your chaff for a unit that does the same job almost as well but you have an extra rhino now

If by "Battleshock" you mean "morale checks", there's a character for that who's actually pretty cheap, in the Dialogous.

Rerolls to morale are risky though, you could end up killing more models if you roll badly the second time.

If you have the points, Inquisitors can boost your leadership, although not by much.

You have to lose three sisters before you can fail morale (and then you only lose one on a 6). I think foot Sisters can be viable now given the reduced damage against them by some of the popular S5 weapons and the relative ease with which infantry gain cover.

I'm using Conscripts to mitigate first turn charges because I have a ton of Redemptionists. 50 for 150 is a steal. Get a 30 point Commissar and they aren't running either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
In regards to Repentia, what about using them as counter chargers? Basically, hanging them back to charge whatever gets in with your other squads? Especially if it is something like a Dreadnaught, Wraithlord or other Monstrous creature? Or even just the toughness 5 -6 type stuff? It would seem like Repentia would do much better against them. 5+ against Toughness 8 vs 6+, toughness 7 is the same, 4+ against toughness 6 vs 5+, and 3+ vs toughness 5 instead of 5+?

Yuck. We go through this every edtion. I just don't think they are that good even counter charging.

Yeah, something went weird with the quote. It swapped our names.

In regards to morale. Max squad size we get is 15. Dialogus costs 15. Leadership is 8 pretty much across the board.

Taking 5 casualties leads to d6-3 extra casualties. Ten is d6+2. don't think the rerolls are that risky overall. You don't reroll a 3 or maybe even a 4 unless you take a lot of casualties and it will wipe the unit anyway, or just a few even if you roll high.

I've seen people talk about stopping killing big units when you get to certain morale levels but that in and of itself is risky. Kill ten sisters and stop, hoping for morale to finish them and you can just spend 2CP to no sale it.

Dialogus is plenty to help the ten sister units stand and CP can help the big ones if needed. It's much easier in a foot slogging list to get lots of CP as well.

Conscripts and Commissars sound awesome.

If you take little units, you don't care about morale.

The problem with small squads is that you're going to have a harder time holding objectives.

Whatever unit has the most models is the one that will be holding the objective.

There are so many things contradicting themselves, making you go one way only to push you in the other direction right now that it's impossible to predict how armies are going to evolve.

Except maybe for Orcs. Mass group of boys are going to be great for morale AND objective holding

Right now, and this may change, my theory is that small squads help me kill stuff. Except for my Conscripts.

What do y'all think of doubling up units in transports?

If you load 2 BSS units with F+HF+CF in a Rhino with double SB, that's 2d6 auto hits at S5/AP-1 and 4d6 auto hits at S4/AP0. In a pinch, you could give up your HF hits to Advance in order to get the rest into 8" range. That's a 241 point package of three units. Three such combos is 723 points and forms the six-Troop basis for a Brigade.

Do the same trick with Retributers (4xHF+CF) and you've got 8d6 auto hits at S5/AP-1 and 2d6 at S4/AP0. That group needs to arrive in 8" range without Advancing, making it a little riskier. That outfit is 325 points.

Selective use of the CP re-rolls and AoF extra phases amplifies the impact of these combos.

I hear the "too many eggs in one basket" objection, but if you could really be decisive about how you advance, choose when and where you're likely to get your Rhino shot out from under you, and diligently avoid losing models to the "can't be placed" rule, I think it might work for a mech army. If you also deploy tons of Exos and Immo Doms to force your opponent to spread his anti-tank around, you're that much more likely to unload safely in range.

I might look at a list with 3x Exos, 3x Immo Doms, and 3x double BSS Rhinos as the basis for a 2000 point Brigade. There's room for Celestine & Friends, 2 Canonesses, 3 Imagifiers, and even a squad of HF Seraphim by my back o' the napkin math. Lots of anti-tank, lots of anti-horde, and lots of vehicle wounds to chew through.

My problem with that is Ork Boys or Hormies or Scarabs. You advance to within range for a next turn shot, they surround and you lost three units.

If you can get enough threats to make them not want to go for the double transport, that'll be good, but it seems to me that the 'three for one' would be the best target even with multiple threats.

If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

Taikishi wrote:
If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

You raise a point that I have been wondering about.

The Vanguard move mentions "As in the movement phase..." and the same is true for our Act of Faith allowing us to move.

This is not our movement phase and that seems to be clear enough, but what exactly can we do?

Can you indeed move + advance and then still fire weapons in your shooting phase since it did not happen in your actual movement phase? If that is true, then it makes our AoF for moving even more powerful.

Ooh good call on advancing.


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Unfortunately, you couldn't shoot or charge. But still neat that you can do it in the pre-game Vanguard.

Voldrak wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
If you're going to do this, and I don't advise it, do it with Dominions. Pre-game vanguard 12+1d6, drop payload, advance the Dominions 6+1d6. Minimum 28" threat range with flamers, 32" with meltaguns, or 44" with storm bolters

You raise a point that I have been wondering about.

The Vanguard move mentions "As in the movement phase..." and the same is true for our Act of Faith allowing us to move.

This is not our movement phase and that seems to be clear enough, but what exactly can we do?

Can you indeed move + advance and then still fire weapons in your shooting phase since it did not happen in your actual movement phase? If that is true, then it makes our AoF for moving even more powerful.

Don't see why not. Believe the FLG guys mentioned doing it in their Q&A videos with things like (I think) Genestealers. Doesn't mean they were playing it right, but as written you move as if it were the movement phase, meaning you can advance an additional 1d6 inches.


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 pretre wrote:
Ooh good call on advancing.


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Unfortunately, you couldn't shoot or charge. But still neat that you can do it in the pre-game Vanguard.

Except that, other than the storm bolters (because I keep forgetting they're rapid fire now), Dominions can advance and still fire their meltaguns at -1 to hit, or fire flamers with no penalty.

Yes, you could do it with -1 to hit if you did it with Faith or during the movement phase.

 pretre wrote:
If you take little units, you don't care about morale.

I worry about objectives. Not just claiming them, since it's numbers of models and ten dudes vs two groups of five is the same. The bigger issue is that a whole lot of the objectives are destroy a unit or multiple units. Having a bunch of five man units males it much easier to score VPs off of you.

Sure. But the reverse is true as well.


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Since I'm sure a couple people might need a method for making more HB sisters, I figured I'd do a quick pic of what I'm doing to make my extra 6.

This is quick and dirty and I only used enough glue to hold it in place for the pic.











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That's a Chaos 'tactical' heavy bolter from the main CSM kit. Pretty much any non-backpack fed HB would work though (scout, Sternguard, etc).


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I could also turn the hand and add a Peg to the top of the HB so she's holding it like the existing one. Not sure if I'll put that much effort in though.

Alternatively, turn the hand and cradle the bottom.

Do you cast the body?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Do you cast the body?

No, but I have tons of heavy sisters, I have a tendency just to pop off the heavy and pop a new one on based on what I need.

Not sure if this was brought up before.


Heavy flamers are now heavy d6. We already know this and it means you cannot advance and still shoot like you would a normal flamer.

The Immolation Flamer however is Assault 2d6.. so yeah you can always advance with your immolator and still shoot the weapons.
These things are going to be great to zoom around the battle field where you need them.

If anyone needs some heavy bolters I can cast you some. As long as you're not a prick and don't mind waiting a few weeks.

20170607_182710 by deviantduck, on Flickr

 deviantduck wrote:
If anyone needs some heavy bolters I can cast you some. As long as you're not a prick and don't mind waiting a few weeks.

20170607_182710 by deviantduck, on Flickr

Those look fantastic! Sign me up for four, and let me know what you can use in return.

I appreciate the offer but it's quicker and easier to just convert.

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

So.... what's stopping us from giving a Canoness a Penitent Buzz Blade and a Heavy Bolter for a total 95 pts?




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And can we give a heavy bolter to Retributor superior for 10 pts?


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Nevermind, the list is in the front of their section, not the point lists in the back. I'm dumb.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

Because 15 Sisters buy 2 Special Weapons when in 1 big squad, but 15 Sisters buy 6 special weapons when in 3 small squads.

A Storm Bolter is half the price of an extra Sister, and achieves the same added shooting output [and dies last, of course].

The main drawback to MSUs is you also have to split acts of faith. Using an AoF on the 15-girl squad results in every single one getting said AoF, while each of the individual MSUs will need their own AoF.

Granted, I don't think AoFs are really going to be something you'd want to rely on heavily anyway, so I don't consider this a HUGE drawback.

 Melissia wrote:
The main drawback to MSUs is you also have to split acts of faith. Using an AoF on the 15-girl squad results in every single one getting said AoF, while each of the individual MSUs will need their own AoF.

Granted, I don't think AoFs are really going to be something you'd want to rely on heavily anyway, so I don't consider this a HUGE drawback.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that so long as they don't work on vehicles AoFs aren't even something to consider unless you plan to run Seraphim and/or Retributors. Because outside of those two units AoFs are most effective for a turn 3-4 "Gotcha Bitch!" moment and not something you build the army around.

Even acting twice a turn a squad of 15 Battle Sisters is fodder at best. Taking one for early charge blocking is decent enough but not so much that investing in an imagifier is really all that woth it, especially when you consider how good priests and hospitallers can be.

Was more thinking an additional shooting round. Because that WOULD make a difference for a 15-woman squad, especially against assault armies that try to close the gap quickly-- but wouldn't be impressive on an MSU army.

Have we determined through some means that they don't affect vehicles? I thought the wording on some sources seemed to leave room for that.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

In previous editions, Repentia struck last always, right? Striking last while relying on toughness 3 and a 6+ save is a whole lot different than charging, striking first and then having the low save after the fact. Moreover, transporting in a Rhino is a lot different. Before, Rhino blows up, they would lose half the unit. Now Rhino blows up and you lose 1-2. So the Rhino if you take it, adds to their survivability instead of making them even more vulnerable.

Things have changed drastically enough that I think it's worth looking at, at the very least. Compare Repentia with Death Cultist for counter charging duty.

Priest with a Power Axe and 10 Death Cultist - 210 points and 2 Elite choices.
Priest with a Power Axe, Mistress with her whips and 8 Repentia. 214 points and 3 Elite choices, helpful for filling out Brigade if you are looking for that.

The Death Cultists have very slightly more survivability with a 5++ save - though it is worth noting if Celestine is hanging out the Repentia also have a 5++ save. Death Cultists are Move 7" but Repentia get to reroll advance and charge distances. Death Cultists hit on a 3+ likely with a reroll, Repentia on a 4+ with a reroll as long as Mistress is alive. Death Cultists get 5 Str 4 AP -2 D1 attacks. Repentia get 3 Str 6 AP -2 D2 attacks per model.

50 Death Cultist attacks average 45 hits with the rerolls. Repentia 24 attacks average 18 hits with the rerolls. The Mistress maybe adds one kill so I'm going to discount her.

Against GEQ the Death Cultists get around 30 kills. Repentia get about 15. Clear win to Death Cultist.
Against MEQ the Death Cultists get around 15 kills. Repentia get about 12. Solid win to the Death Cultist.
Against Primaris (or most races bikers as a note), the Death Cultists get around 7-8 kills. Repentia get about 12. Solid win to the Repentia.
Against Termies, the Death Cultists get 5-6 kills. Repentia get about 8 kills. Solid win to the Repentia.
Against Marine Bikers or Deathguard, Death Cultists get 5 kills. Repentia get 8 kills. Solid win to the Repentia.

Then we get to the big guys. Against toughness 7, Str 6 and Str 4 are identical. Dreadnaughts are toughness 7. This is a best case scenario for Death Cultists against tough models, so we will start with them. Toughness 7 8 wounds 3+ save.

Death Cultists 10 wounds! It's a kill! Repentia average 8 wounds as well - though it's exactly the 8 wounds so much less reliable. Against the specific example of Toughness 7 multiwound models, Death Cultists are better!

Toughness 6 3+ save? Death Cultists still only 10 wounds. Repentia in that example get 12 wounds. Toughness 8 3+ save? Death Cultists get maybe 5 wounds. Repentia get 8 wounds.

Note that in all these cases I am discounting the input of the Mistress which is fairly mediocre over all.

The biggest difference is how commonly you expect to see multiwound things that you need to countercharge. Primaris, Terminators, Nobz, monstrous creatures, bikers. That sort of thing. It's also worth noting that more hordey infantry are also hurt by flamer Overwatch so long as they start the charge within 8", as well as being more vulnerable to all the Bolter fire and Immolation flamers and heavy bolters and the like. In contrast, we have little that efficiently kills multiwound things like bikers, Termies and Primaris. Melta weapons seem pretty heavily overkill - especially if you get unlucky and roll that 1 for damage. Exorcist seems fairly inefficient as well. We don't have quite the access to Plasma that others do. So I could easily see those being somewhat more of a problem.

The other thing to note is that none of this accounts for Acts of Faith. If Repentia or Death Cultists are involved in a multi-round combat - Death Cultists lose Zealot and Repentia gain the potential for a before combat round of attacks. Which is a huge deal. There aren't going to be bucketloads of them getting additional attacks - but even 3-4 leftover can do an extra 9-12 attacks before combat even begins. That can easily off another 2-3 models. Or potentially get them a long range reposition for a charge where the enemy wasn't expecting it. They'll leave the Priest and Mistress behind which sucks a lot, but may be worth it if they get into something the opponent thought was safe.

Could be none of that matters. Could be Primaris are a dead, people abandon bikers in droves and nobody uses Termies to assault. Death Cultists would be crazy hot in that world. I just don't think it's a good idea to discount them out of hand because of prior editions. They sucked so bad in prior editions because they were too vulnerable and they struck last, right? Now they are less vulnerable and they strike first on the charge! Worth looking at, right?

Well I'm not going to beat the dead horse too much but I think I showed that the oversimplification of Sisters Repentia in 6th/7th was to read the stat line and stop reading, and that they could be more..

I enjoyd them a lot. I am going to try them in this new edition. I have no bold predictions at this point. Looking at the buffs you can kind of pile on them, they look pretty dangerous and just like before the art of it will be getting them there...which was made imminsely easier in this edition. Striking first is sort of last on the list of bonus's this edition gave them, not first, but I am still excited about that also.

But again... No bold predictions.

The biggest criticism of Repentia in previous editions was that they had no way to actually reliably get in to combat. With them able to go in to transports and assault out of them, this is gone. But with that also came a nerf to their weaponry, which now functions as weaker than before.

So... IDK. My guess is they'll remain a niche, rarely used unit, which can surprise people that aren't used to them. And... that's it.

 Melissia wrote:
The biggest criticism of Repentia in previous editions was that they had no way to actually reliably get in to combat. With them able to go in to transports and assault out of them, this is gone. But with that also came a nerf to their weaponry, which now functions as weaker than before.

So... IDK. My guess is they'll remain a niche, rarely used unit, which can surprise people that aren't used to them. And... that's it.

Still theorycrafting for them here, is putting them in reserves for turn 1 ( to avoid getting shot up), then using them to counter attack turn 2 or 3 a better idea here? Seeing as they are better against bigger multiwound things over DCA, I'm thinking counter attacking that first turn charge trygon and genestealer squad ( and prolly dying in the process). That said, Im still a little confused as to how reserves work now.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The biggest criticism of Repentia in previous editions was that they had no way to actually reliably get in to combat. With them able to go in to transports and assault out of them, this is gone. But with that also came a nerf to their weaponry, which now functions as weaker than before.

So... IDK. My guess is they'll remain a niche, rarely used unit, which can surprise people that aren't used to them. And... that's it.

Still theorycrafting for them here, is putting them in reserves for turn 1 ( to avoid getting shot up), then using them to counter attack turn 2 or 3 a better idea here? Seeing as they are better against bigger multiwound things over DCA, I'm thinking counter attacking that first turn charge trygon and genestealer squad ( and prolly dying in the process). That said, Im still a little confused as to how reserves work now.

Can you even put them in reserves? I thought the unit had to have permission in its entry to be able to not start on the table.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

Yes. The 2 Squads of Rets for 1 squad of sisters has more reach, does more damage and is more efficient.

MacPhail wrote:Have we determined through some means that they don't affect vehicles? I thought the wording on some sources seemed to leave room for that.

They affect vehicles at least the Imag and StC ones.


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 Melissia wrote:
The biggest criticism of Repentia in previous editions was that they had no way to actually reliably get in to combat. With them able to go in to transports and assault out of them, this is gone. But with that also came a nerf to their weaponry, which now functions as weaker than before.

So... IDK. My guess is they'll remain a niche, rarely used unit, which can surprise people that aren't used to them. And... that's it.

I don't know if that was their biggest criticism. It was one of them. Even losing that one, they still have:
They are over costed.
They are super fragile.
They don't hit hard enough.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The biggest criticism of Repentia in previous editions was that they had no way to actually reliably get in to combat. With them able to go in to transports and assault out of them, this is gone. But with that also came a nerf to their weaponry, which now functions as weaker than before.

So... IDK. My guess is they'll remain a niche, rarely used unit, which can surprise people that aren't used to them. And... that's it.

Still theorycrafting for them here, is putting them in reserves for turn 1 ( to avoid getting shot up), then using them to counter attack turn 2 or 3 a better idea here? Seeing as they are better against bigger multiwound things over DCA, I'm thinking counter attacking that first turn charge trygon and genestealer squad ( and prolly dying in the process). That said, Im still a little confused as to how reserves work now.

Can you even put them in reserves? I thought the unit had to have permission in its entry to be able to not start on the table.

This is correct. Units can no longer start the game in reserves unless they have a special rule allowing it.

 pretre wrote:
I don't know if that was their biggest criticism. It was one of them. Even losing that one, they still have:
They are over costed.
They are super fragile.
They don't hit hard enough.

Even with all of that, if they had the ability to assault out of transports, they'd have at least been a potentially useful elite slot choice. Certainly not a top tier power unit, but useful. But now they feel even more fragile and don't hit as hard, so getting the ability to assault out of a transport isn't as big of a buff...

The fix for Repentia is simple: <=9 ppm. If they were 9ppm, I would take them, even with their current stats.

 pretre wrote:
The fix for Repentia is simple: <=9 ppm. If they were 9ppm, I would take them, even with their current stats.

Of course, though I was thinking a more modest 12ppm, 9 for basic sister, 3 for the nerfed eviserator. Do you all think 17ppm would be worth it if they brought penitent eviscerator back up to -4 rend? I know I know, wishlisting. But at least we have a somewhat chance to get those points adjusted now in a somewhat decent timeframe.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
The fix for Repentia is simple: <=9 ppm. If they were 9ppm, I would take them, even with their current stats.

Of course, though I was thinking a more modest 12ppm, 9 for basic sister, 3 for the nerfed eviserator. Do you all think 17ppm would be worth it if they brought penitent eviscerator back up to -4 rend? I know I know, wishlisting. But at least we have a somewhat chance to get those points adjusted now in a somewhat decent timeframe.

They aren't a basic sister though. They have a 7+ save (much worse), a 3+ WS (slightly better) and 2 Attacks (better). And no, -4 rend does not make them 17ppm.

Short of a 12" move or a 3+ save, I don't see 17ppm being worth it.

Faced off against a 2000 points Chaos list today using the Dominion list I posted previously.

Belakor
Skarbrand
Kharn
Renegade knight with battle canon and gatling gun
3 x 5 Khorne Berserkers in Rhinos
Helldrake


He was going first due to have less drops than me, but I managed to steal the initiative. Turn one I boxed him in with the dominions and their Immolators. Killed the helldrake and dropped the Knight to 9 wounds. I then charged all of his rhinos with my dominions. I knew he was going to get the charge off anyway so wanted to make sure I kept him on his side of the table and not able to drive for objectives.

by turn 4 all he had left was Skarbrand daisy chaining from one combat to the next with consolidates and in the end I managed to table with him my Eviscerator Canoness bringing Skarbrand down.

I had Celestine down to 1 wound (already had died once). My squad of HB Rets, 2 Immolators, 2 Imagifiers and the canoness left.


A lot of the damage done to his army was from one of his rhino and his knight actually blowing up. Since he was boxed in, he dealt a huge amount of mortal wounds to himself in the explosions.

Was very fun game in any cases. Took a little under two hours to get those 2000 points done.

Nicely done!

Voldrak wrote:
Faced off against a 2000 points Chaos list today using the Dominion list I posted previously.

Belakor
Skarbrand
Kharn
Renegade knight with battle canon and gatling gun
3 x 5 Khorne Berserkers in Rhinos
Helldrake


He was going first due to have less drops than me, but I managed to steal the initiative. Turn one I boxed him in with the dominions and their Immolators. Killed the helldrake and dropped the Knight to 9 wounds. I then charged all of his rhinos with my dominions. I knew he was going to get the charge off anyway so wanted to make sure I kept him on his side of the table and not able to drive for objectives.

by turn 4 all he had left was Skarbrand daisy chaining from one combat to the next with consolidates and in the end I managed to table with him my Eviscerator Canoness bringing Skarbrand down.

I had Celestine down to 1 wound (already had died once). My squad of HB Rets, 2 Immolators, 2 Imagifiers and the canoness left.


A lot of the damage done to his army was from one of his rhino and his knight actually blowing up. Since he was boxed in, he dealt a huge amount of mortal wounds to himself in the explosions.

Was very fun game in any cases. Took a little under two hours to get those 2000 points done.

Thanks for the info - more I hear baout 8th the better it sounds in terms of variety of units and fun gameplay.....

Oh yeah.
The one thing I learned from that fight.

Do not let Skarbrand get into close combat with anything if at all possible. 2+ to hit. 2+ to wound and d6 dmg. 7+ attacks per round.

He kills whatever he touches and anything within 8 inches of him cannot fall back. If you get multi assaulted, you basically are waiting for him to consolidate from one fight to the next and eat everything up.

Voldrak wrote:
Oh yeah.
The one thing I learned from that fight.

Do not let Skarbrand get into close combat with anything if at all possible. 2+ to hit. 2+ to wound and d6 dmg. 7+ attacks per round.

He kills whatever he touches and anything within 8 inches of him cannot fall back. If you get multi assaulted, you basically are waiting for him to consolidate from one fight to the next and eat everything up.

He's on my painting table right now. I'm glad they kept the fluff of him and let him get better as he takes wounds. Angry Skarbrand for the win... unless he's facing Sisters, then there's no hope for him.

This is my working list right now. What do you all think? I'd love to squeeze a third canoness in but have no idea where the points would come from.

Battalion Detachment

HQ 1: Canoness

HQ 2: Canoness

Troops 1: 10 Sisters of Battle, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer

Troops 2: 10 Sisters of Battle, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer

Troops 3: 10 Sisters of Battle, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer

Elite 1: Imagifer

Elite 2: Imagifer

Heavy 1: 7 Retributors , 4 Heavy Bolters

Heavy 2: 6 Retributors , 4 Heavy Bolters

Fast 1: 5 Dominions, 4 melta gun, combi-melta, Immolator w/ twin-multi melta

Fast 2: 5 Dominions, 4 melta gun, combi-melta, Immolator w/ twin-multi melta

Detachment Total: 1275

Spearhead Detachment

HQ1: Celestine

Heavy 1: Exorcist

Heavy 2: Exorcist

Heavy 3: Penitent Engine with Buzz Blades, 2x Heavy Flamer

Heavy 4: Penitent Engine with Buzz Blades, 2x Heavy Flamer

Detachment Total: 728

Points Total: 1994 points
CP Total: 7

Not so sure about the brigade. Also, that's a lot of points in Combis. Let me know how the PEs work out. I'm still curious.

 pretre wrote:

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

Yes. The 2 Squads of Rets for 1 squad of sisters has more reach, does more damage and is more efficient.

Well sure, but 2 squads of Rets is 2 heavy support choices costing substantially more than 1 squad of Sisters as one troop choice. Heavy vs Troop isn't quite the big deal it was, but troop detachments do give you way more command points.

The more relevant questions to me are comparable points and comparing choices to themselves. For example, 15 sisters vs groups of 5 sisters in a troop squad, or 5 Rets vs 10 Rets for the extra protection for the special weapons and cheaper cost. It's hard to determine the examples though. 5 sister squads are frequently taken in transports with close range weapons like flamers/meltas. Conversely, 15 sister squads are by definition walking and far more likely to take weapons like Heavy Bolters, possibly MultiMelta and Stormbolters/Combi Plasma on the Superior.

Still, lets try to get a baseline comparison going. I'll compare sisters with 2 Flamers & Combi Flamer in 5 vs 15 squad and I'll also compare 5 Retributors with Heavy Bolters with the 10 Retributor versions of the same. It's harder to compare melta/multimelta sisters across categories because they prefer to shoot tanks rather than sisters, but I included the relevant point costs. I also want to point out just how much more vulnerable 5 person units with 4 heavy weapons will be to eating a bunch of anti-infantry fire now that units can split fire. Losing 27 point multimeltas rapidly seems terrible.

Relevant point costs

5 Sisters with 3 flamers 74
15 Sisters 3 flamers 164
5 sisters with 3 meltas 96
15 sisters with 3 meltas 186

5 Retributor with Heavy Bolters 85
10 Retributor with Heavy Bolters 130
5 Retributor with Multimeltas 153
10 Retributor with Multimeltas 198

So two units of 5 sisters with 3 flamers vs 14 Sisters with 3 flamers (to make the points more even, though still in the MSU favor). Outside of flamer range it should be obvious - 6 bolters on one side vs 12 on the other. Moreover, as soon as a squad takes 3 wounds they lose one of the flamers. So we will just assume that you close into point blank range automatically. The math is easy because it's all Str 4 AP - hits.

On the MSU side, 6 flamers average 21 hits. The 4 Bolters not on the superior get 8 shots averaging just over 5 hits. The Superior gets 2 shots hitting on 4+ for another hit. 27 hits average 6 wounds rounding up, leaving 8 Sisters in the other unit. Battleshock could easily account for another d6-2 or 1-2 more kills, assuming no dialogus.

On the big unit side, 3 flamers average 10 hits rounding down. The 13 bolters on line sisters get 26 shots, averaging 17 hits rounding down. 27 total hits, which makes the math really easy because it's basically the same as the above. If you go for one squad you wipe it out with overkill. If you split 50/50 towards each squad you reliably kill all the bolters and one of the flamers from each squad. More likely though, you put all the flamers on one squad because you can't really split 3 flamers 50/50. So more likely going to end up with a 4/2 split if you try and split the fire. Same result in the end though, 2 dead flamers and 4 dead bolter sisters. Battleshock in the case of the 4/2 split is d6-4 - so you have to get lucky to get 1 kill out of battleshock.

There are positives and minuses in both direction there - but I do think it is worth pointing out that this is best case scenario for directly comparing the small elite unit vs the big unit. One thing I am wondering is if we are discounting how good basic weapons actually are now? Or maybe overestimating how good flamers are? I wonder if the variance adds up to anything? A flamer rolling a 4, 5 or 6 is getting extra guaranteed hits compared to things rolling to hit, so maybe high rolls having more impact mattes more? Or maybe Stormbolters are really a much better choice than we think?

Comparing Heavy Bolters. Two Retributor squads with Heavy bolters vs one 10 person squad is 170 vs 130. I'll just keep things simple and throw an extra 4 bolter sisters on the Retributors side to vaguely compare the value of the extra 40 points you get. Not a great comparison as 4 HB is generally speaking > 4 basic sisters and you can probably fine better uses for the points, so whatever.

MSU side gets 24 HB shots for 16 hits, about 5 unsaved wounds. With the two extra bolter shots we can round up for 6 kills. It would kill either the superior or one of the HB sisters on average, plus the potential for battleshock.

Full unit side gets half the HB shots for about 2.5 unsaved wounds from HB fire. The 10 bolters get another 1.5 wounds. So generously assuming you are within bolter range you get 4 kills. Battleshock is again, get lucky and you might get one more.

Where this makes the bigger impact is this. Those 4 kills kill 3 heavy bolters. At first, I thought this looked simple. Big units for troops and closer range because rapid fire bolters are actually pretty good. But the MSU are doing 64-82 points worth of damage depending on battlecheck results because of the big units plain sisters absorbing a lot of the damage, and still has output. The full unit side does less kills, but does 66 points of damage because of the Heavy Bolters. And that's with the cheapest possible heavy weapons. Your squad of 4 Multi Melta sisters? Loses 117 points from the same damage.

And that's the rub for me. MSU makes it really easy to defang units, even with relatively basic weaponry. You get more damage UNTIL you take damage, at which point you start doing substantially less damage. Which I guess isn't shocking - but when you add in my original issue with people getting VPs? I'm fairly certain that even with the added special weapons it seems to be much easier to score VPs off MSU than it is off of big full units. Much, much, much easier!

 pretre wrote:

MacPhail wrote:Have we determined through some means that they don't affect vehicles? I thought the wording on some sources seemed to leave room for that.

They affect vehicles at least the Imag and StC ones.

They currently do as written. I'd be wary about relying heavily on that as it seems like exactly the sort of thing they didn't intend and end up ruling against in a FAQ/Errata.

 pretre wrote:
The fix for Repentia is simple: <=9 ppm. If they were 9ppm, I would take them, even with their current stats.

Are you kidding me? 9 points per model! You aren't even remotely on the same planet as anything balanced. Do you also think Death Cultists should be 9ppm? I already demonstrated above that Repentia do similar levels of damage to Death Cultists WITHOUT including Acts of Faith. Remember, I was comparing like point costs as well, so it was 8 Repentia Mistress & Priest compared to 10 Death Cultist + Priest. The only thing the Death Cultists did much better against was the toughness 3 5+ stuff. They did slightly better against toughness 4 3+ save. Anything with multiwounds except for the specific category of Toughness 7 (exactly 7 only) and 3+ save, Repentia did better. And in all cases except cheap spam Repentia performed close. Your suggestion of making them half the cost would catapult them to being similarly effective against conscripts and more than twice as good against everything else including MEQ. All of this not even accounting for acts of faith. Survivability they are closer than you think. 6+ vs 5+ isn't hugely different, in both cases you absolutely have to protect them on the way in because a 5+ is certainly not saving you. If Celestine is going in with the unit, they are actually equivalent. 5++ vs 5++.

If you are looking for the role of a melee infantry unit that can walk up the board and charge into enemy combat, I don't think anything works in that role for Sisters. Maybe Crusaders, but even then 15 points is a lot to pay. They do get 3++ and access to acts of faith though so you can catapult them up a bit faster, but that's still a lot of points and their damage output on arrival is positively anemic compared to DC or Repentia. Really though, you won't find that role in the faction.

If you are trying to use them properly though, as a countercharge unit that you keep back and protected until it is time to go in? Definite potential there for either DC or Repentia and which is better depends entirely on how the meta develops. Lots of cheap spam, horde play or baseline MEQ? DC going to be better. Lots of Primaris, bikers, big bulky multiwound things or vehicles? Repentia will be better. I'm leaning towards the meta developing more towards cheap spam than tougher things, but Sisters as a faction do much better against hordes in general so it may still be better to have them in your back pocket. What I can tell you for certain 100% is that 9 point Repentia would be unbelievably, stupidly undercosted. To a degree that is almost crazy. If Repentia need to be cut in price by 50% then pretty much every other elite close combat unit does too, and then where does that leave the cheap close combat stuff?

I wouldn't take DCA at their current cost either.


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I'm not even going to try to address that whole wall of text.

The difference with HB MSU vs HB big squads is threat overload. If everything I have puts threat down the table, it makes my opponent's choices harder.

Yes, they degrade faster, but they also do damage faster.

And the good comparison is
3x 5 Rets with 4 HB - 255
2x 10 Rets with 4 HB - 260


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Also, keep in mind that 3 squads of Rets gets me a Spearhead, 2 gets me added into something else.

 pretre wrote:
I wouldn't take DCA at their current cost either.

I personally think Crusaders and penitent engines are the 'winners' for melee.

Crusaders at 16pts are good enough in combat to mess up deepstrike infantry charges and that 3++ makes shooting at them just such a waste of time. As a screening unit I think 10 of these guys is gonna be hard to beat in terms of efficiency, especially with them benefiting from AoF. That said, they're more viable than DCA or Repentia because they don't really do much outside of the 1 thing they excel at and as such are likely to be ignored.

Penitent engines are moderately more survivable(to much more survivable depending on how meched up you are) than DCA or Repentia while dishing out some pretty crazy damage potential.


Repentia and DCA are just...bleh. DCA I would say are slightly less effective than Seraphim at just...just everything and Repentia are a joke unit you throw into a rhino and catch someone who doesn't know anything about sisters off guard. Being cheaper than battle sisters is a bit of a stretch but being 50% more expensive than seraphim is a bit silly.

I basically agree with Erjak on this one.

Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

LOVE Pentient Engines now. SO happy to see them in lists.,

 Jancoran wrote:
LOVE Pentient Engines now. SO happy to see them in lists.,

I think I have 9 unassembled that I need to put together one of these days.

 Melissia wrote:
Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

Have you got any suggestions for Crusader models?

 dan2026 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Likewise. I'm actually considering getting some old fantasy sword-and-board paladin models and painting them up as crusaders.

Have you got any suggestions for Crusader models?

Arbites with Shield and Maul?
Bret Men at Arms? Warrior Priests?
Stormcast?

I mean pretty much anything with a sword and shield, which is like every fantasy mini ever, would work.


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Temple flameguard from WarmH.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Sure. But the reverse is true as well.

How do you figure? The smaller squads kill the bigger squads faster? I don't understand how? Extra special weapons helps some, but not so much so that it accounts for an extra 50% bodies.

Yeah, it does. Equal points:
11 Sisters + 3 Storm Bolters = 111 points, equivalent firepower of 14 boltguns
2 squads of 5 Sisters + 3 Storm Bolters = 114 points, equivalent firepower of 16 boltguns
Compared to the big squad, the two smaller squads have 91% of the survivability and 114% the firepower.

Edit: well then. It appears the original iteration of my response showed up again. Huh. Must have become lost it the pipes or something.

Well then, on Crusaders, I might try to give some guardsmen tower shields or something.

Trying to find decent female crusader models while Raging heroes drags ass on knights of the chalice (the only good infantry models they make since they 'updated' everything to have ridiculous high heels) is a giant pain. I don't convert.

I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

For that matter any tips on building them? If they're actually viable now I'll need to pick up a few at some point and I am NOT looking forward to building them.

Do you mean using the PE in game, or literally transporting them?

My wife has tried running three PE in a squad a couple times thus far in 8th, and she tells me she's accepted that one will be dead by the time they get to the fight. That said the two survivors have proceeded to earn back the entire unit's worth at the least, both times.

Transport wise, because 90% of her army is Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, and thus criminally fragile, she's magnetized all the bases (including the PE) and transports things standing upright in a metal lined box. They're literally too fragile to even survive being pulled into and out of pluck-foam. :-p HORRIBLE models.

 pretre wrote:
I wouldn't take DCA at their current cost either.


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I'm not even going to try to address that whole wall of text.

The difference with HB MSU vs HB big squads is threat overload. If everything I have puts threat down the table, it makes my opponent's choices harder.

Yes, they degrade faster, but they also do damage faster.

And the good comparison is
3x 5 Rets with 4 HB - 255
2x 10 Rets with 4 HB - 260

Also, keep in mind that 3 squads of Rets gets me a Spearhead, 2 gets me added into something else.

15 bodies vs 20 bodies. It's so much easier to lose special weapons. That's just with the cheap Heavy Bolters too as opposed to expensive weapons like Multimeltas. Then again - you would have to lose 4 heavy bolters in that example before you would even out the number of heavy bolters, so maybe it's not so bad after all. And filling out formations is nice.

I'm still not sure that it doesn't leave you far more vulnerable to losing squads and giving up VPs through a combination of losing squads faster and not having as many models to put on point. And if the sisters with Bolters get even to the 24" range, it becomes 36 HB shots and 4 bolter shots vs 24 HB shots with 12 bolter shots. Not as good as the 3 person squad but not anemic either. I think with things like Heavy Bolters that are very cheap and longer range it would be better to have smaller squads. With ones that are going to get close, the bolters are going to do more damage and can make up for more of the output.

There's a reason I'm not taking Multi-meltas in my squads.


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 Hoitash wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I have a penitent engine, but am just nervous on the prospect of actually transporting it anywhere...any tips?

For that matter any tips on building them? If they're actually viable now I'll need to pick up a few at some point and I am NOT looking forward to building them.

You're going to want to pin them. That's the easiest way to make sure they stay together.

As for transport, I would suggest a tablewar case. If you're not made of money, then I would suggest magnetizing them with strong magnets on the base and using a cookie sheet to place them on. I'm starting to hate foam and keeping my models standing helps a lot with removing damage.