Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

I woyuld take a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/651867.page

One gripe is that some people think vehicles are bad, they are weaker than 5th edition for sure where a tank could live forever if the opponent rolled badly.

Already been there. It's nowhere near as bad as they make it out to be.

Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

I was just happy my last DA codex made them not completely crap, though I would love to see termies not suck, I love deathwing but they die way to easy for how many point they cost.

The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Guard are reliant on expensive tanks and blobs of infantry, which in this edition aren't that competitive. There transports are expensive and slow, which for maelstorm missions is bad.

Noone ever seems to win with guard, at least not at competitive events.

Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

But surely that's correct - Everyone should be at the same level?? The recent 7.5 Codex's are on a different level to earlier ones and that's the issue (along with some total idiots saying L2P etc)

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I woyuld take a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/651867.page

One gripe is that some people think vehicles are bad, they are weaker than 5th edition for sure where a tank could live forever if the opponent rolled badly.

Says the Dark Angels and Necrons player. If your opponent is rolling that bad that they fail to kill a tank then it is hardly your fault.

Typically-Wardian wrote:Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

Tons of vehicles? Since when was that an issue to just about every other army?

Typically-Wardian wrote:Already been there. It's nowhere near as bad as they make it out to be.

And yet you do not play IG and have never faced them.

I haven't played necron in their current edition, not really fun anymore. Kinda wish I hadn't bought the book and card set.

I was referring to 5th edition where if you were glancing a vehicle all day and it just is less effective but still alive. This was before I played necron though, I really only played them at the tail of 5th and part ways through 6th.

Though thank you for reminding me to drop the necron off my sig since I really never plan to play them again.

People think that it is underpowered because it is.

The only units people use are Leman Russes, Company Command Squads, Veterans, Chimeras and Vendettas. The only strategy people seem to use is sitting in the corner of the map behind a defence line with Punisher Pask + Tank Friend and Chimeras full of Veterans + Command Squad. I am heavily encouraged to use this strategy, and am told this is the "only way to play guard".

The infantry die very quickly, and lack firepower. The units and vehicles I haven't listed are overcosted for what they do. They lack the firepower to fight off any armoured melee units. Necrons, especially wraiths, demolish guardsmen with ease, usually without casualties.

another issue is speed. In an age of multiple objectives that give points every turn, being able to move quickly is important and guard don't have any thing that does that really well.

It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

You might be able to something with rough-riders or something. (Those are the guys on horses right?)

Rough riders are awful! They are great at dying very quickly. Maybe if they could outflank and assault on the turn they arrived. But still.

I've mentioned before how it would be great if guard could have a bike unit that is a motorcycle and side car, equipped with a heavy stubber. They would run in squads of 3 and be a new part of an infantry platoon.

This would make them fast and give them obj sec.

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

Them, the blood Angels, and chaos marines are consistently the bottom performers at big events. Check torrent of fire if you'd like to see that data.

Even the bottom armies have a few aces though. I think guard blobs make a nice little deployment zone filling ally to knights or marines. A baronial court up at their deployment line with a giant guard blob making it so no one can show up in he side or rear arcs early game is pretty effective. Bonus points if the blob is fearless via priest and has extra survivability like with psychic powers.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Rough riders are awful! They are great at dying very quickly. Maybe if they could outflank and assault on the turn they arrived. But still.

I've mentioned before how it would be great if guard could have a bike unit that is a motorcycle and side car, equipped with a heavy stubber. They would run in squads of 3 and be a new part of an infantry platoon.

This would make them fast and give them obj sec.

That's what I mean "do something with them" Make them not horrible.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

That doesn't really matter when the IG can take out the enemy army from 72"+ away, no problem.

The trike idea wouldn't be bad, though maybe not objective secured, even as units on their own they would not be terrible, maybe like up to 3 units as one FA choice.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
[insanity]

Are you high?

They have a good amount of fire power with the right build but it's often on fragile platforms and at some point you need to go out and get objectives unless your going to table your opponent which is rare.

I beat a guard player once in Maelstrom missions by barely killing anything but protecting my fast units and grabbing objectives.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have a good amount of fire power with the right build but it's often on fragile platforms and at some point you need to go out and get objectives unless your going to table your opponent which is rare.

I beat a guard player once in Maelstrom missions by barely killing anything but protecting my fast units and grabbing objectives.

If by "rare" you mean "99.9999% of the time", then sure. The IG are a powerful codex. By the second sentence, I have to assume you're playing Eldar.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

And how do you 'prove' something like that?

Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

So prove to us that they stand up amazingly well to everything else then

Honestly, I'm not seeing it. Now I pay tau, which is a pretty good codex (although I play with a minimum of cheese), but I've never known them to be a "powerful codex".

 ImAGeek wrote:
So prove to us that they stand up amazingly well to everything else then

The fact that they can cover the enemy deployment zone with untouchable firepower at str 8+ and ap3 or better, means that they can take out enormous amounts of stuff with impunity. Add that to their almost limitless hordes of tanks and troops, and there you go.

I play scout heavy spacemarines. So i have a lot of landspeeders. going by the best evidence we have of actual results is looking at top tournaments winners and to my knowledge none of those have been guard.

At BS:3 and no ignores cover most Guard firepower goes nowhere.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.

*sigh*

Imperial Guard Veteran vs Space Marine Scout:

Scout:
-11 ppm
-MEQ statline (Ws, Bs, S, T, I are all 4, 1 wound, 1 attack, ld 8)
-4+ armour standard
-Boltgun and Bolt Pistol
-Frag + Krak Grenades
-Chapter Tactics
-ATSKNF
-Infiltrate
-Scout
-Move Through Cover

Veteran:
-6 ppm (4 points cheaper)
-GEQ statline (Ws, Bs, S, T, I are all 3, 1 wound, 1 attack, ld 7) (this alone is a difference worth more than 4 points)
-5+ armour standard (pay 1.5 ppm to get the 4+ back)
-Lasgun and Laspistol (-1 str, and no ap)
-Frag Grenades (krak grenades are an extra 1 ppm)
-Orders (for a 50% boost in lasgun shots for a turn)

For a difference of 4 ppm, the scout marine is more than twice as good as the veteran.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

That doesn't really matter when the IG can take out the enemy army from 72"+ away, no problem.

Issue: the enemy starts 24ish inches away from you. I'm sure if you had scenarios where the armies started as far apart as the longest range gun, guard would do a lot better. (Guard actually rock the house in apocalypse. They make me glad to be on the imperial side.)

And unlike say...the tau, you don't have tons of twin linked high strength ignore cover, and your big guns don't have t6 4 or more wounds with awesome armor, an invuln, toe in cover ability, smash, and fnp. They instead have middling armor that will get Swiss cheesed the turn the scat bikes start shooting. With little to no interceptor, you can't do much against an opponent who brings in drop pods or has other shooters like the aforementioned scatpacks come in from reserve.

ITC events have maelstrom as roughly a third of the mission points in every mission, so not being able to quickly line break early or go contest a no man's land or even enemy backfield objective at any time are major flaws in that format.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move.

The problem with the LRBT is as follows;
Terrible rear armor. It is easy for marines to drop 3 plasma guns/ meltas into your rear arc and 1 round the LRBT. They can then use the pod launcher to remove some of the infantry, all for a relatively cheap unit.
Their battle cannon is AP 3 and doesn't ignore cover. Most units will still get a cover save of 5+. For marines, this is still not great, but for eldar and the like it's often only a small drop in a save. Against GEQ they might as well still have a save. Bikes can still jink
Their battle cannon being Ap 3 means that a lot of the best units in the game still get a 2+ save against it.
It's other weapons are fired as snap shots since 6th edition.
It's battle cannon is Str 8, so a lot of units that you really want instant death against (cents, wraiths) still get their full wound usage.

It's a tank that is designed to remove MEQs in mass in an edition where MEQs are not taken in mass.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.

Again the basilisk can be removed pretty easily by any drop podding force turn 1.
It's guns suffer from similar problems to the LRBT, enemies still get cover saves and it doesn't deny 2+ cover saves (I believe, going off memory here).
It can only indirect fire over a minimum range, and that min range is pretty long.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

You'll find t hat it's pretty easy for eldar armies to remove about 25-30 infantry a turn from 36" given 20 scat bikes. The 100+ troops can be destroyed by turn 4 while the eldar player dances back.
Other armies can't put out that much firepower as easily, but basic guard aren't very threatening. Even doing 60% casualties is enough most of the time.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

Rough riders are good if they hit.
They die to a stiff breeze (unlike TWC and other good melee units) and are just expensive enough where it hurts. Rough riders haven't been great since...I want to say ever.
They also lack Ap 2 and a large number of attacks. You really want some ap2 in a melee unit, or a bucketload of attacks.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

Spoiler:

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

where did you get that chart at? that is actually really handy.

Holy gak, I got ninja'd something bad!

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

I have no words to say save that you really aught to get off the net.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Leman Russ are cheap? They are semi viable at best and the only reason you see them used is because there is nothing better. Those extra weapons? Better not be an Ordnance tank or you have just wasted your points. And as for firing its weapons on the move, well I am damn glad that it can, seeing as it is stuck with a 6" move and no boost whatsoever, making it slower than infantry. Oh and firing them all on the move? See the Ordnance issue above.
I would also like to know which players these are whom are letting their MEQ units stand around in the open? For a Russ to make its points back, that is achievable. So long as you did not purchase any upgrades and it lasts more than 3 turns.
The Basilisk can fire indirectly yes.... With a 36" minimal range. Have fun hitting anything after turn one, and as for its range, well on a 6 foot board that never really seems to matter. Also the Volcano cannon and a plethora of other heavy weapons can reach out as far as it. Also: Hunter Killers.
100+ infantry? What, you just took two 50 man blob squads? Those might just last a couple of turns....

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

In both this thread and the other thread and a few dozen others the Imperial Guard have been proven time and time again to be the 2nd weakest codex in the entire game.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

You mean the overpriced underarmoured guys on ponies whom usually get blitzed long before they can get across the board and whom can only deliver their S5 AP3 hit once in the entire game?

Typically-Wardian wrote:Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.

What are you smoking OP because I could really do with some

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

I find that hard to believe, infact I call bull

In theory yes, they can drop a massive amount of fire power, into deployment zones where most models are either in reserve or deep striking.... and yes their tanks can get lots of sponsons for cheap, except that they no longer have lumbering behemoth, so they can't move and shoot... or fire the cannon and not snap shoot.... hmm the basilisk can take out all armor saves.. with ap3 I don't see how that work.

The orders that fail almost 50% of the time and can be used only if you are within range.

Yes I see why people are always terrified to play guard.

Y'know sometimes I question if chaos marines w/ forgeworld are weaker then AM at all. I have a pair of players on my group that go full mechguard, LRBT and all, and usually complain as they lose to space wolves and dark eldar. Heck my army of 2 hellcults supported by tzeentch sorcerers and contemptor Dreads tend to mop the flow with them, without even summoning. We still have a joke about how their baneblades tend to kill more allies in their inevitable explosion then what their guns actually do

I blame it on the nerfing of Creed and no Sly Marbo

guard really need a price cut on most of their stuff and some kind of fast unit. Everything in the army is slow.

The basic guard is arse. The veteran guard is also arse. And their stormtroopers equivalent are a bit less arse. They can bring the pain but can't take any while the rest of the troops don't bring any pain with their str 3 ap-.

Thing is i've always concidered basic guard infantry as cannon fodder. That's what the imperium does. Bring loads of useless guys to get shot up while your big guns cause havok.

But I can see why people say AM is UP. Other then mech. not much else seems to work out. Except ye old blob guard vs heavy AT armies.

I disagree on veterans, due to the ability to get lots of special weapons.

 drunken0elf wrote:
The veteran guard is also arse. And their stormtroopers equivalent are a bit less arse.

If anything, it's the other way round. Storm Troopers are badly overcosted - being the same price as marines but with a much worse statline.

Their weapons are AP3, but S3 utterly cripples them, and the pitiful range doesn't help matters.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

I don't. I merely want my IG to be Decurion level.

And if it is not on par with Necron Decurion, then it definitely needs improvement.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Wow there is so much misinformation here. Most Russes actually CAN'T fire all of their weapons on the move because the ones people most often take have ordnance weapons, which force snap shots on all your other guns. I played Guard for years and rarely have I seen a Russ makes its points back. Only after blowing up a Rhino with something else and dishing out the pie plate on the cluttered passengers have I ever seen a Russ make even remotely close to its points back. As to your other points, I don't know if anyone can take you seriously if you complain about the Basilisk. Yes, it can fire indirectly and from behind cover, but with zero reduction to the scatter distance. That means you are hitting, on average, twice throughout the course of a normal game. With AP 3 it does certainly not deny all armor saves, don't know where you're pulling that from.

As to the orders and HQs as force multipliers... you do realize that officers are stuck in their tiny 5-man squads right? If they were independent characters that could throw themselves into 30-man squads, I could MAYBE understand your frustration but as they are now? No way. If you can't wipe out 5-man GEQ units, there is something seriously wrong with your list building.

Most people think Guard are under powered thanks to the recent jump in codex power. We struggle against the top tier armies. That's not to say that Guard can't win against them, it's just an uphill battle. We have some strong units, but they're outnumbered by the units that are overpriced/underpowered.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster

Such as... (wait for it...)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You might be able to something with rough-riders or something. (Those are the guys on horses right?)

Bingo.

Yes, Rough Riders exist since Rogue Trader / 2E. They suck. Very badly. For quite some time now. Expensive like a SM, but still fragile like a Guardsman - not worth the points premium for slightly faster movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

I am just glad that those crappy Tau got their sub-par Codex fixed, because they really needed it.

But yeah, I'm curious what he's running to make Guard so good. Although I'm afraid we get another guy bringing 600+ pts of Guard blob and calling it "good"...

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

Dunno'. I think that the collection size limits some players. then people play them and roll some guy whose just pleased as punch he gets to play with army men and they look to tournament standings and see Astra Militarum not as highly ranked (albeit also less represented which has a lot ot do with it) and DECIDE it's not.

People who dont play the codex outnumber those who do. As in most codex's. So the majority speak about their general gaming experience and havent REALLY played the codex, nor spent many hours digesting and planning for it.

That ALSO leads them to a lot less educated view of it. As with most codex's, a LOT of people simply haven't, in any RECENT past, actively used that particular codex.

The ones who have are running into Wraith Knights and so on and saying "what can men do against such evil?" but some of that just comes down to the General and some of it the collections limitations and other times its that they played someone whose really awesome! All those things could further taint someones perception.

So it's not like there's NO reason for people to SAY it's not competitive. It's when you illustrate to them how it can be and their brain shuts down and says "nope, internet said nope, so nope" that I get annoyed. Lol.

Ah, the joys of being a Guard player, They sucked in 2nd, they sucked in 3rd, missed 4th, not to bad in 5th, alright in 6th and back to suck in 7th.
You'll get used to it, just find a list that you like, that's fluffy and screw the crunch. I play a list that has at lest 4 armoured sentinels in it and I get stomped on all the time... that said, I do make it bloody hard going for the other player (plasma vet ).

 Ribon Fox wrote:
Ah, the joys of being a Guard player, They sucked in 2nd, they sucked in 3rd, missed 4th, not to bad in 5th, alright in 6th and back to suck in 7th.
You'll get used to it, just find a list that you like, that's fluffy and screw the crunch. I play a list that has at lest 4 armoured sentinels in it and I get stomped on all the time... that said, I do make it bloody hard going for the other player (plasma vet ).

Plasma Vets are great fun aren't they? I find the looks of horror on my marine buddies face hilarious when that "infantry squad" he ignored turns out to be full of ap2 goodness

I know
My guard are geared up to make SM players have a bad day

Eh, if I run them well enough my HB veteran sections can ruin my opponents day.
My current recipe for destruction is: Pop transport with the Exterminators, blast the now sans Rhino Marines with my LRBT and then mop up the survivors with a couple of Infantry sections. I still lose in the end to the far ,ore powerful codex's but the brief look of horror on my opponents face as an entire MEQ squad or equivalent goes down the swanny is priceless.

Sadly though most of my MEQ opponents now either bring: outflanking Space Wolves, Deepstriking on turn1 Grey Knights and triple Vindicator squadrons with a Librarian to give them Invisibility.
Hence, this great and honoured tactic of pop'n blast is less effective than it used to be (though I have been having some interesting results with a certain opponent whom charges in with everything, his Landraider, a couple of Melta Vet sections and a Thunderer )

Still though the Guard are really underpowered and in all honesty Tau should not have been re done, next it should have been CSM and Imperial Guard.

It probably should have been them yes, but hopefully gee-dubs will grant us the honor of a halfway decent codex. We need to get down to the business of purging the heretics/xenos. And the current dex just doesn't cut it

Plasma spam is virtually the only thing that can make IG look really scary, but it also makes them quite pricey, and no matter which unit you give the plasma weapons to (either regular guardsmen, vets or stormtroopers), they can and will usually die very very quickly.

If I manage to gather enough models, I'd like to one day try some crazy infantry blob list with company command squad + kurov's aquila, a few psykers to spam divination, and tons and tons of infantry with plasma rifles and grenade launchers. Perhaps a Russ or two to provide some cover saves (until some overpowered MC blows them up). Picking heaps of models off the table as they die in droves, where's the fun without that.

Who I'm trying to con here, I'll never finish painting such a thing.

Plasma is good. The problem is that it's still +15 pts per gun. On a BS3 model, with a Sv5+ when it gets hot. Awesome.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

Spoiler:

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

where did you get that chart at? that is actually really handy.

I got it from here: http://battlebrotherswh40k.blogspot.nl/2014/08/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-army-ranking.html, but the data and graph are originally from Torrent of Fire: http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Plasma is good. The problem is that it's still +15 pts per gun. On a BS3 model, with a Sv5+ when it gets hot. Awesome.

Well, for what it's worth, I seemed to always manage to save my lone Guard plasma gunner about 50-60% of the time when he'd overheat... Meanwhile, my Marines have about a 99.9% guarantee of exploding when their plasma weapons overheat.

Dice really, really hate me.

AM is middle of the pack or slightly below. They have some very good fire power true, but they don't possess the ability to move forward, control the mid field, or take objectives. They are slow in a fast moving environment and do not have the durability to stay around. Many models are over priced for what they do.

True, some armies struggle with armor, but a lot don't.

Now I do well with my guard and win most matches. But I do not play conventional guard, and bring the inquisition. They really multiply the strength of the guard

Middle of the road implies that there are a sizable number of factions that are below them in power-level. The only armies I can think that are weaker than Guard are CSM, with Dark Eldar and Orks being "any given sunday" level with them. That's three codices out of 20, not counting IG itself and pseudo-codices like MT.

You know what makes me dislike guard in recent years? They are very focused on being cadians and steel legion with no support for other guard playstyles. I've been wanting to build a catachan army for about 3 years now, but know that I will be unable to run it as I want (vetscouts in deep cover with snipers, with sentinels boogieing along with heavy flamers, without losing to all but orks and blood angels. The army demands either tons of conscripts for blob guard, or bringing 8+ tanks which I despise as an army concept. Entirely personal opinion and not fact obviously, I just feel that almost every army with distinguished chapters/regiments/warbands/etc should get a proper 30k treatment. My word Bearers have special units, special detachments, character options, special weapons, etcetc. If they added a supplement for each book with 4-8 pages for each regiment, I would be very happy to jam money into GWs gullet xD

Funny thing is they don't even really support Steel Legion that much either. They have like 1 squad, plus a few blisters for heavy weapons teams and an officer. As a Cadian player I'm satisified, but I do wish the other regiments would get some love, I dearly want to start a Mordian army, but they have all of like 1 squad for them. Might have to look into a 3rd party retailer for that though.

 War Kitten wrote:
Funny thing is they don't even really support Steel Legion that much either. They have like 1 squad, plus a few blisters for heavy weapons teams and an officer. As a Cadian player I'm satisified, but I do wish the other regiments would get some love, I dearly want to start a Mordian army, but they have all of like 1 squad for them. Might have to look into a 3rd party retailer for that though.

Most of the minor regiments have metal/finecast models still. The crazy Russians have it the worst I think, since all of their models are objectively worse then just running over to a historical store and getting actual Russian models, likely for cheap too. For catachan they are decent, though third party heads are required if you want to go with non-googly eyed freaks. Thing about catachan for rules though? They have a single option: an out of date apocalypse formation that is barely strong enough compared to the now standard formations now. I could honestly make a all scout ravenguard army, and have it fit the fluff better then the actual army :/

Sad, but true. Hopefully we'll get a model facelift when/if we get a new codex. Fingers crossed

What's funny is that a lot of the (non-Praetorian) metal IG are still available from GW. Pretty fairly priced, too, in the sense that plastic is catching up with metal.

I would like doctrines, though. That would be nice.

You guys just aren't building the army right. A Blobguard deathstar to get into melee does the trick.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

They can take tons of infantry. Their infantry suck, both in absolute terms and for their relative investment. There's gobs of things that can remove humongous numbers with ease. More to the point, the scale at which the game is played, with Knights and companies of tanks and deathstar units like Necron Wraiths or TWC's, stuff like Lasguns simply have no functional value, and all you're really getting out of most of your infantry is simple board presence rather than any sort of useful combat unit, and they cost too much for that.

They have lots of vehicles. Vehicles (particularly non-skimmer vehicles) are exceedingly easy to remove and otherwise negate, particularly with the increasing availability of weapons like Gauss, Grav, Haywire, Destroyer, etc that all largely ignore AV and can strip HP's or otherwise kill vehicles with great ease, and IG have very little access to these sorts of abilities. Despite your previous statement in another thread that putting down 10 AV14 tanks auto-wins games...it doesn't, in fact it practically auto-loses most.

They have units that can *potentially* remove their points worth of stuff every phase, but really very rarely do. Yeah, in theory, a Leman Russ can obliterate 150pts of Marines in a single round. However, This basically requires a clean hit on a very clumped up enemy unit that's standing out in the open. Opponent's rarely give you such an opportunity, and even when they do, you have less than a 50/50 chance of sticking the hit you need to make it count. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen a Leman Russ or Basilisk accomplish this feat in the last several editions. Such vehicles also tend to be rather poor at actually engaging other tanks, and are atrocious at dealing with MC's (that they can only ever do one wound to) and are rather very poor at engaging popular deathstar units.

Yeah, IG HQ's are force multipliers, but only really for the weeny crappy infantry that die immediately after they do their job, and the HQ units aren't exactly hard to kill either, they're usually priority (and squishy) targets.

They can take lots of Psykers...but they can't really use them anywhere near as effectively as other factions can. Getting Invisibility with a 25pt Telepath sounds cool...until you realize you can't cast it from inside a transport, the unit is incredibly easy to kill outside of a transport, and there's no particularly amazing units to cast it on the way there are with many other armies like Eldar or Daemons or Space Marines. Likewise getting Iron Arm on a Primaris Psyker isn't anywhere near as useful as on say, a Biker Librarian or a Daemon Prince. The army just can't make use of many (or most) powers as effectively as other armies can make of them.

Yes, IG have lots of LoW choices, but by and large, they're vastly inferior in effectiveness than everyone else's, particularly on a point for point basis. Sure a ~500 Shadowsword gets a D Pieplate. A 295pt Wraithknight gets two D shots and way more mobility. A 500pt Eldar Scorpion gets two Twin-Linked D pieplates. A 300pt IG superheavy like a Macharius gets a 7" S8 AP3 blast and a couple of Heavy Bolters, is actually less impressive than two bog standard Leman Russ tanks.

EDIT: It should also be noted that IG armies aren't placing anything anywhere near top places in any tournaments anywhere, except as a meatshield allied detachment to another army, and even that's relatively rare.

IMO, IG are a fine army.

As long as the vast majority of the points are spent in IKTs and the IG are used as bubble wrap

Because what's ridiculous is how IKTs do everything the Guard wants to do, but categorically better. For the same points as 2 LRBTs, you have the same core firepower laying down 2x 72" S8 AP3 pie plates from an armored vehicle. However, you get an Invulnerable save. And you're faster. And you get to fire your secondary weapons at regular BS. And you get Skyfire or extra templates at a fair price. And you don't suck in HtH, because you can Stomp enemy mobs. And if there are enemy Titans or whatever, there are actually good options to take those out.

But the IG are superior to IKTs at one thing... dying. As bubble wrap to take up space, Platoons and blobs are great at that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys just aren't building the army right. A Blobguard deathstar to get into melee does the trick.

Exactly.

Until it meets just about any other deathstar in the game, or any one of the very large number of accurate delivery template weapon that are common to many armies

Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

120 points of seekers will kill almost 30 guardsmen on average in a single round.

Blob guard is one of the most overrated play-styles I've seen, which is a shame because it's fun as hell to play.

Edit- The Lost and the Damned army-list from Forgeworld is a great example of how the IG should play, imo.

If blob is the best IG can do, we have way bigger problems than what I had previously surmised.

a 50 man squad of guardsman with azrael power weapons (or melta bombs)and a priest. you can add an inquisitor to give them scout. take azraels fnp warlord trait or his +3 run charge trait. 6 inch scout move 6 inch normal move. potentially another 9 inch run move with a decent roll with orders. 2nd turn charge. 4++ rerollable invulnerable saves.

peirceg wrote:
a 50 man squad of guardsman with azrael power weapons (or melta bombs)and a priest. you can add an inquisitor to give them scout. take azraels fnp warlord trait or his +3 run charge trait. 6 inch scout move 6 inch normal move. potentially another 9 inch run move with a decent roll with orders. 2nd turn charge. 4++ rerollable invulnerable saves.

Yay allies stupidity.

peirceg wrote:
a 50 man squad of guardsman with azrael power weapons (or melta bombs)and a priest. you can add an inquisitor to give them scout. take azraels fnp warlord trait or his +3 run charge trait. 6 inch scout move 6 inch normal move. potentially another 9 inch run move with a decent roll with orders. 2nd turn charge. 4++ rerollable invulnerable saves.

Piggy-backing on another codex does not mean the IG codex is any good. For the same reason that the Eldar aren't made worse by being able to ally with Orks and BA.

As above, if you're going to take allies, at least take GOOD allies - Imperial Knights!

That said, Azrael+Ogryns in a LR is fun as hell, if not very effective.

Ineffective yet fun, is that something like healthy food?

Right now IG are pricey tanks and cheap infantry. IG was able to get by on large blasts and volume of fire but right now that doesn't generate enough hits/wounds/failed saves.

GW will never do it, but they should consider looking at what FW did with 30k Imperial Militia and Solar Auxillia... Not saying they copy that, but they need to move outside the orthodoxy of Cadian style IG and approach them as an empire spanning force.

The problem with measuring a codex with allies is that you quickly reach a point where there's no point even playing your codex - because there's nothing it can do that your ally codex can't do better.

See also: Dark Eldar.

peirceg wrote:
a 50 man squad of guardsman with azrael power weapons (or melta bombs)and a priest. you can add an inquisitor to give them scout. take azraels fnp warlord trait or his +3 run charge trait. 6 inch scout move 6 inch normal move. potentially another 9 inch run move with a decent roll with orders. 2nd turn charge. 4++ rerollable invulnerable saves.

The problem with the blob is that it's very expensive and is still slow. Vulnerable to weapons
A 6" scout and 6" normal is 12 up the field. You run for another 9" that's 21".

At that point, 20 scat bikes with guide remove quite a bit of troops. Eldar army moves back to prevent a charge.
At that point, wraiths/flayed ones charge in and win the combat anyway.
At that point, drop pod marines in a triangle with launchers remove half the blob or more.
At that point, the centstar fires TL bolters and gravguns.
At that point, 200-300 points of wyverns open up and remove the squad.
At that point, tau with markerlight support decimate the front ranks and prepare for overwatch (since they likely have no other targets in fire warrior range turn 1).

Most of the commonly seen units can roll that blob. It's been popular since 6th and it wasn't broken then, just kinda competitive.
Now, in 7th, the good dexes are even more powerful while the blob hasn't changed that much.

Uughhhhhhhhhhh no. Christ.

Look, what is the actual definition of a "bad" codex. One in which 50% or more of the units and options that are present are so bad there's no reason to take them? One that actually gets forced to build in a specialized way to beat one specific type of enemy because the other options are too inefficient to ever work?

Someone defended rough riders, right? Let's talk about rough riders. Let's say, for instance, you take your rough riders and charge their perfect prey: tactical marines with bolters. If you survived with T3 5+ models and managed to get a flawless charge, and you've got a "one use only" ability you should completely obliterate them right? Let's say 10 RRs make it unscathed to 10 hapless tacticals.

Well... (Hold on to your pants, I'm going to use decimals. I know you can't take .4 of a wound or hit .7 times but it's a better way to estimate averages compared to rounding.)

First, 2.2 of your rough riders die to overwatch. Then you kill 5.1 tacticals. Then another 1.8 rough riders die.

So on average, you kill a whopping one more tactical than you lost rough riders. And it gets worse. If the tacticals retreat, they rally on their turn and shoot you for 5 of your remaining 6 wounds. If you stay in cc, you don't kill any more marines and they kill 2 more, because your lances are done.

Best case scenario... They don't make their points back. If the tacticals have something crazy like a flamer... The initial round of combat is a tie and they get even less. That's what make RRs quite possibly the worst models in the game: they simply can't be efficient.

Agree that the biggest issue is the current Guard codex is Codex: Cadia. Cadians are cool and all, but when I compare customization optionsto the Renegades and Heretics lists, the difference is obvious.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Agree that the biggest issue is the current Guard codex is Codex: Cadia. Cadians are cool and all, but when I compare customization optionsto the Renegades and Heretics lists, the difference is obvious.

Except if it were actually Codex: Cadia, it would be good.

Well if you're using a unit meant to counter charge and mop up to charge an unscathed tactical squad you're doing it wrong. If GW made Rough Riders the way they need to be to actually assault full units... They'd be more like the Death Korp of Krieg Deathriders. GW really needs to think about updating Rough Riders. In every known civilization that had cavalry they were elite better equipped units... These riders should be more on a hardened veteran or storm trooper power level, equipped better and mounted on sufficiently sci-fi steeds.

peirceg wrote:
a 50 man squad of guardsman with azrael power weapons (or melta bombs)and a priest. you can add an inquisitor to give them scout. take azraels fnp warlord trait or his +3 run charge trait. 6 inch scout move 6 inch normal move. potentially another 9 inch run move with a decent roll with orders. 2nd turn charge. 4++ rerollable invulnerable saves.

That's the thing. I would rather not have to take allies to make my army better. In fact, I shouldn't have to take allies to make Guard work. But with the way 7th has gone pure Guard is one of the weakest armies out there.

I'm not sure that RRs are defined as a countercharge unit - it's more that countercharge is the only thing they're capable of.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Rough riders are awful! They are great at dying very quickly. Maybe if they could outflank and assault on the turn they arrived. But still.

I've mentioned before how it would be great if guard could have a bike unit that is a motorcycle and side car, equipped with a heavy stubber. They would run in squads of 3 and be a new part of an infantry platoon.

This would make them fast and give them obj sec.

and then theres a race for everyone to get bikes, and then the meta is basically bike armies everywhere or flying spam, wow thats some realy diversity of armies right there with everyone basically drinking the same two flavours of kool-aid. how about instead we make an army to hard counter bike spam, how about that. no im not talking about standing in fields with IC, how about letting the IG player buy his own terrain, things like spike strips and grav plate barricades that force units of the bike (jetbike for grav) (against any special rules they may have) to make dangerous terrain checks or remove from play on a model by model level. then let him place them wherever he wants on the table. i think that would be an effective way to counter the speed is king lists that dominate the meta so much as you can use them to effectively deny the ability to cross the table the way the other person wants. its a simple idea but a very powerful one. if a unit crosses them they make checks or they are crushed by their own weight/thrown from their bikes and effectively out of the fight and because it over-rides other rules applicable such as born in the saddle it will have an impact and bikes will tumble to the ground, heck you could lose IC's from jetseer's in single dice rolls which would be just brutal. maybe let him buy IED's to pre-plant as well. guard are the masters of siege warfare and placing traps and using simple things like spike strips to slow the enmy or deny them a route of passage altogeather is something they would actually think of doing, instead of you just being left to run across the field willy nilly.

All I have to say about allies is this: if a codex relies on allies to be useful, then it is either a minidex which is meant to be THE ally, or its weak. Chaos marines have renegades and daemons, impguard has inquisition and space marines, and sisters of battle reaaaally needing inquisition for as much divination as possible. The pattern here? All three used to be stable on their own, but now require crutches to survive a friendly game.its to the point with impguard that not taking divination psykers next to 2+ artilary pieces is insane talk, because them and tank squadrons are all you have

nd then the meta is basically bike armies everywhere or flying spam, wow thats some realy diversity of armies right there with everyone basically drinking the same two flavours of kool-aid.

well the current meta is for the "chosen" armies to have super awesome formations that mean they are obscenely powerful compared to those without them.....and/or giant Walkers pretending to be Creatures

Imperial Guard used to have bikes - I still have one of them, but they took them away (and Land Raiders, and Rhinos and........well you get the picture) so that the Marines could look more that much more impressive......................and of course unique........

Because they can read the codex...

IG are underpowered. And tbh, they are kind of meant to be, they're just average (by 40K standards) men.

They're not superhumans, or super-psyonic xenos, or uber-adaptable xenos, or Tomb Kings.

However!

I think alot of the Codex is overpriced for what it does.
LRBT have been overpriced for a while, and squadrons are rubbish.

Chimeras come with a decent armament, but overpriced as balls (A stock razorback is only 55pts, with HB, SB and BS4 lest we forget). Ok yeah Chimeras have better capacity, but seriously, 65+ points for a BS3 Transport of all things? I can get 2 Rhinos for 70 points.

Stormtroopers are awesome, but horrifically overpriced for a sub-par MEQ statline.

The Codex fliers are rubbish (Stormtalon costs 125 with a Lascannon, AssCannon and BS4 PLUS strafing run and Escort Fighter), the Valkyrie is 125 base, with a terrible weapon load-out AND BS3!

The Hellhound variants are horrifically overpriced, no two ways about it.

The fact that the Taurox even exists

The Lord Commissar (and normal Commissars too) can't give orders

Rough Riders only scare Grots.

The only good thing about IG is their Infantry platoons. And even then, yeah that's alot of shooting, but y'know who else can amass cheap firepower? Tyranids. And look at that mess.

You also can't go "Oh but with X and Y allies they're good". Because that's crap, same as the LOW options. This is about the Codex itself, not the ability to take superheavies, or allies or spacesquid.

And regarding the blob thing, with or without Azrael. Have you heard of Flame templates? Or Whirlwinds? or your own Wyverns? There's a reason Green Tide and Nid swarm struggle. You're slow, exposed, wearing t-shirts (regardless of the invul). Hell, at least the other 2 hold up in CQC,

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Izural wrote:
Rough Riders only scare Grots.

I'm not sure that is the case. If I had a full Grot squad, I think they win, even if the RRs get the charge.

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

Not really true. "most" weapons isa pretty gorss overgeneralization and it assumes you can hit the characters in question. Not really likely to happen. Don't need much luck when you have 6 rolls. You need a little luck. not a lot. And you only need ONE Psychic power, not two. =). anything beyond that is a bonus.

And as you know well from a previous thread, the blob as i build it has only ever died once. So like i say: Fortitude is not the problem wit hthe blob. The problem with a blob is its General simply not GIVING it any. If you don't, then all these comparisons to orks start to matter. But if you do, then it is nothing like an ork blob at all.

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

Not really true. "most" weapons isa pretty gorss overgeneralization and it assumes you can hit the characters in question. Not really likely to happen. Don't need much luck when you have 6 rolls. You need a little luck. not a lot. And you only need ONE Psychic power, not two. =). anything beyond that is a bonus.

And as you know well from a previous thread, the blob as i build it has only ever died once. So like i say: Fortitude is not the problem wit hthe blob. The problem with a blob is simply not GIVING it any. If you don't, then all these comparisons to orks start to matter. But if you do, then it is nothing like an ork blob at all.

If you are ever in the north of the UK drop into Red Steel Gaming in Preston sometime. I will gladly show you just how to remove this blob in two to three turns. And I mean all of it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

Not really true. "most" weapons isa pretty gorss overgeneralization and it assumes you can hit the characters in question. Not really likely to happen. Don't need much luck when you have 6 rolls. You need a little luck. not a lot. And you only need ONE Psychic power, not two. =). anything beyond that is a bonus.

And as you know well from a previous thread, the blob as i build it has only ever died once. So like i say: Fortitude is not the problem wit hthe blob. The problem with a blob is simply not GIVING it any. If you don't, then all these comparisons to orks start to matter. But if you do, then it is nothing like an ork blob at all.

If you are ever in the north of the UK drop into Red Steel Gaming in Preston sometime. I will gladly show you just how to remove this blob in two to three turns. And I mean all of it.

Unless you play Eldar, I call BS.

I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

Not really true. "most" weapons isa pretty gorss overgeneralization and it assumes you can hit the characters in question. Not really likely to happen. Don't need much luck when you have 6 rolls. You need a little luck. not a lot. And you only need ONE Psychic power, not two. =). anything beyond that is a bonus.

And as you know well from a previous thread, the blob as i build it has only ever died once. So like i say: Fortitude is not the problem wit hthe blob. The problem with a blob is simply not GIVING it any. If you don't, then all these comparisons to orks start to matter. But if you do, then it is nothing like an ork blob at all.

If you are ever in the north of the UK drop into Red Steel Gaming in Preston sometime. I will gladly show you just how to remove this blob in two to three turns. And I mean all of it.

Unless you play Eldar, I call BS.

I do play against Eldar and more Eldar. In fact I play against Tau Empire, Hemonculus Coven/Dark Eldar(occassionally, and thats the only faction to ever kill the blob), Chaos Marines, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, stra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, White Scars, UltraMarines, Adepta Sororitas, orks, Skitarrii+IK Knights, Triple Raven Blood Angels and so on. There really Isn't anything I don't see.

We have an enormously active group within the two hour radius from my house.

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

It's called "anti-armour weapons".

Not difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Blobguard can kill things in melee, definitely. But the losses in the imperials side more then makes up for anything they can kill. Killed that daemon prince? Good job, most of the blob is gone now assuming black Mace. Now imagine that for veterens who should be better in melee, and are actually worse for ppm .

The book can do things, but mostly they pay to much for to little

Unless, again, you make them nearly unkillable. Which you can do.

Which requires several hundred more points investments in puny characters whom can be instakilled by most weapons within the game. And even then you need a lot of luck to roll up the two psychic powers that you need with the three level 1 psykers you have.
And even then the blob squad is still pathetically slow and will die to just about any other unit in the game, it will just take an extra turn or two.

Not really true. "most" weapons isa pretty gorss overgeneralization and it assumes you can hit the characters in question. Not really likely to happen. Don't need much luck when you have 6 rolls. You need a little luck. not a lot. And you only need ONE Psychic power, not two. =). anything beyond that is a bonus.

And as you know well from a previous thread, the blob as i build it has only ever died once. So like i say: Fortitude is not the problem wit hthe blob. The problem with a blob is simply not GIVING it any. If you don't, then all these comparisons to orks start to matter. But if you do, then it is nothing like an ork blob at all.

If you are ever in the north of the UK drop into Red Steel Gaming in Preston sometime. I will gladly show you just how to remove this blob in two to three turns. And I mean all of it.

Unless you play Eldar, I call BS.

I do play against Eldar and more Eldar. In fact I play against Tau Empire, Hemonculus Coven/Dark Eldar(occassionally, and thats the only faction to ever kill the blob), Chaos Marines, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, stra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, White Scars, UltraMarines, Adepta Sororitas, orks, Skitarrii+IK Knights, Triple Raven Blood Angels and so on. There really Isn't anything I don't see.

We have an enormously active group within the two hour radius from my house.

I'm talking to Master of Ordnance. You can't remove IG blobs.

How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?



and subbing them all out for GK Paladins does not count.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

So I dunno what all the disappointment comes from really. It's not like it couldn't benefit from a few fun formations or whatever. Rough riders are my prayer. Do something cool for them!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:
How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?

and subbing them all out for GK Paladins does not count.

No, I imagine it doesn't.

Izural wrote:
How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?

Very very easily. Just the standard blob with 3 priests and 3 psykers and 3 commissars with orders (especially with Yarrick attached) makes it one of the toughest units in the game. That's not even thinking about allies.

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

So I dunno what all the disappointment comes from really. It's not like it couldn't benefit from a few fun formations or whatever. Rough riders are my prayer. Do something cool for them!

Do you ever think it's unkillable because no-one considers it a threat? I mean c'mon! They're guardsmen!

That doesn't make it the toughest. It makes it a blob of t3 figures that rely on getting that 4+ invuln power off to not get shot off the board. God help you if you go against elder or GK, you won't get any powers off. AND THEN you'll get shot off the board.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Izural wrote:
How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?

Very very easily. Just the standard blob with 3 priests and 3 psykers and 3 commissars with orders (especially with Yarrick attached) makes it one of the toughest units in the game. That's not even thinking about allies.

No need for the Commissars even but sure if you want more power weapons, then you can do that. though if i did I'd probably go with power maces on the extra bodies for the added STR. Or not... But those Commissars hnestly are just Weapons caddies.

Izural wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

So I dunno what all the disappointment comes from really. It's not like it couldn't benefit from a few fun formations or whatever. Rough riders are my prayer. Do something cool for them!

Do you ever think it's unkillable because no-one considers it a threat? I mean c'mon! They're guardsmen!

50 guardsmen with 10 powerful HQ units attached. Hardly weak.

 War Kitten wrote:
That doesn't make it the toughest. It makes it a blob of t3 figures that rely on getting that 4+ invuln power off to not get shot off the board. God help you if you go against elder or GK, you won't get any powers off. AND THEN you'll get shot off the board.

You are free to doubt, of course. I'm sure that's exactly how it will happen. Lol. but not.

Yeah how does a MoO help with resilience, does he get some sort of extra rules set or something?

Makumba wrote:
Yeah how does a MoO help with resilience, does he get some sort of extra rules set or something?

He puts down a free basilisk shot every turn.

Guys, he (Typically-Wardian) tried making another duplicate spam thread (which is now locked thankfully) about how guard are OP in Proposed Rules. I would seriously try to avoid indulging him any further since its clear he's baiting at this point.

 Jancoran wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Izural wrote:
How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?

Very very easily. Just the standard blob with 3 priests and 3 psykers and 3 commissars with orders (especially with Yarrick attached) makes it one of the toughest units in the game. That's not even thinking about allies.

No need for the Commissars even but sure if you want more power weapons, then you can do that. though if i did I'd probably go with power maces on the extra bodies for the added STR. Or not... But those Commissars hnestly are just Weapons caddies.

Commissars can't give orders.

And all the models are WS3. and T3. and 5+ save. You're basically insta-gibbed by all known weapons not called "Heavy Stubber" or "Flashlight"

 Grimskul wrote:
Guys, he (Typically-Wardian) tried making another duplicate spam thread (which is now locked thankfully) about how guard are OP in Proposed Rules. I would seriously try to avoid indulging him any further since its clear he's baiting at this point.

I'm not baiting. I thought this was a discussion forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Izural wrote:
How does one make an "Unkillable" blob of Guardsmen?

Very very easily. Just the standard blob with 3 priests and 3 psykers and 3 commissars with orders (especially with Yarrick attached) makes it one of the toughest units in the game. That's not even thinking about allies.

No need for the Commissars even but sure if you want more power weapons, then you can do that. though if i did I'd probably go with power maces on the extra bodies for the added STR. Or not... But those Commissars hnestly are just Weapons caddies.

Commissars can't give orders.

And all the models are WS3. and T3. and 5+ save. You're basically insta-gibbed by all known weapons not called "Heavy Stubber" or "Flashlight"

Yarrick can give orders.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

It's called "anti-armour weapons".

Not difficult.

AT in a Guard blob? what are you smoking?

I'm talking to Master of Ordnance. You can't remove IG blobs.

Yes I can. It is called: "2 Leman Russ Eradicators". S6 for the instant kill, AP4 to ignore any and all armour that they could possibly be wearing and Ignores Cover just to remove that one oh so vital Guard save, all wrapped up in a nice 5" pieplate. And that is with two of the weakest tanks in the game.

Typically-Wardian wrote:Unless you play Eldar, I call BS.

See above for a very easy example. Oh and BTW those two Eradicators still leave me with another 10+ cost of upgrades on the blob points to play with.

Wyverns, flayed ones, I believe seekers, and massed bolter fire do okay.

So what I'm getting from this, is you would willingly shove all your IC's, in a T3 shell that has to footslog, with ML1 psykers. With only their t-shirts to save them?

Have you met our friend? I call him Will the Whirlwind.
He's AP5, Ignores cover and comes in squadrons!

How many HQ's? Ten? Is there some form of detachment/rule that lets you take more than 2 in a CAD?

That's a momumental troops tax if not.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

It's called "anti-armour weapons".

Not difficult.

AT in a Guard blob? what are you smoking?

The heavy weapon spam that every IG list is peppered with , from tanks with 4+ big guns to str 9/10 artillery to weapon teams everywhere and melta-spam veterans.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Guys, he (Typically-Wardian) tried making another duplicate spam thread (which is now locked thankfully) about how guard are OP in Proposed Rules. I would seriously try to avoid indulging him any further since its clear he's baiting at this point.

I'm not baiting. I thought this was a discussion forum.

It is, but you find that people eventually grow tired of malodorous trolls insisting against all the odds that they are right, despite all the evidence and the majority (read: almost everyone apart from them) saying otherwise.

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

It's called "anti-armour weapons".

Not difficult.

AT in a Guard blob? what are you smoking?

The heavy weapon spam that every IG list is peppered with , from tanks with 4+ big guns to str 9/10 artillery to weapon teams everywhere and melta-spam veterans.

You where specifically referring to an IG blob though

You could even *shock and horror* upgrade the blob IG to take melta and plasma.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You could even *shock and horror* upgrade the blob IG to take melta and plasma.

5 BS3 Melta shots are hardly scary. Remeber that said blob has to live long enough to get within 6" of the target.

Guard Heavy Weapons teams are hardly worth it. Besides, our Russes have only 1 big gun, and 2 of those Russes aren't even worth it thanks to the Ordinance special rule, and the loss of Lumbering Behemoth. Basilisks are crippled by their minimum range. And congrats, you found of one like 3 decent units in the Guard codex.

Flayed Ones are actually disgusting against blobs of the same point value, especially if they get in the charge. If you didn't have your 4++ due to bad rolling, they'll ignore your armor and have 5 frickin attacks. At T4 4+/4+++, even with Hatred your s3 attacks don't entirely matter.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant

Do you even read your own codex? Yarrick has the Senior Officer rule.

I'm pretty sure flayed ones get shred as well.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You could even *shock and horror* upgrade the blob IG to take melta and plasma.

Yes, BS3, with no re-rolls, gets hot, and an overrated 12" gun will what? Footslog to my whirlwinds in (fortified) cover?

What do you do against flyers then? Throw your boots at them?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
You could even *shock and horror* upgrade the blob IG to take melta and plasma.

5 BS3 Melta shots are hardly scary. Remeber that said blob has to live long enough to get within 6" of the target.

It can use buffs to gain tons of durability, and can use cover when that gets negated.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant

Do you even read your own codex? Yarrick has the Senior Officer rule.

He does? news to me, I took one look at his points cost and turned the page.

Did you miss the part where ignores cover is available in spades now? And those buffs you're so proud of aren't that easy to get off with ml1 psykers. Have fun against Eldar or GK

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

I love that you literally didn't even try to answer my question.

For those of you who are new to the boards, this is text-book Jancoran by the way. Make an outrageous claim, and when asked to substantiate that claim toss out some rhetoric in the vein of "learn to play, all I know is this works for me anecdote anecdote" yadada.

He is never going to actually, explicitly explain how his blobs are "unkillable", just re-assert infinity ad nauseum that they are.

Akiasura wrote:
I'm pretty sure flayed ones get shred as well.

Yep. Purely disgusting.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant

Do you even read your own codex? Yarrick has the Senior Officer rule.

Actually, the Special Rule to give orders is "Voice of Command". Yarrick is the only Commissar to have the rule.

And to that end, you're wilingly going to blow 50+ shots on a single unit? Wow, gg. That totally not a waste of FRFSRF to kill a tact squad xD

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant

Do you even read your own codex? Yarrick has the Senior Officer rule.

He does? news to me, I took one look at his points cost and turned the page.

He's had it, but apparently there's conflict if you bring a CCS. I wouldn't know, as I don't play Guard, only against them on occasion (which has been forever; like maybe 6 months ago?)

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

I love that you literally didn't even try to answer my question.

For those of you who are new to the boards, this is text-book Jancoran by the way. Make an outrageous claim, and when asked to substantiate that claim toss out some rhetoric in the vein of "learn to play, all I know is this works for me anecdote anecdote" yadada.

He is never going to actually, explicitly explain how his blobs are "unkillable", just re-assert infinity ad nauseum that they are.

He has a blog. That is all the proof he needs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yarrick can give orders.

No he cant

Do you even read your own codex? Yarrick has the Senior Officer rule.

He does? news to me, I took one look at his points cost and turned the page.

He's had it, but apparently there's conflict if you bring a CCS. I wouldn't know, as I don't play Guard, only against them on occasion (which has been forever; like maybe 6 months ago?)

Chain Of Comand rule means that Yarrick cannot issue orders if another Senior Officer is on the battlefield.

I have a question, has anyone had success with the FW detachments (DKoK, Elysians, Armoured Battle Company)?

I remember facing off against Armoured Battle Company IG with my mates Tau (which I had no knowledge of how to play and a dire first turn shooting phase, literally could not do anything, but I could have won the game via Objectives had it ended turn 5 or 6) and I've seen Reecius use Elysians alongside Skyhammer and a Raptors CAD against DE/Eldar.

Armoured Battle Company is the thing where Russ tanks are taken as troops, for a greater cost, less synergy, and monster-hunting rounds.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I have a question, has anyone had success with the FW detachments (DKoK, Elysians, Armoured Battle Company)?

I remember facing off against Armoured Battle Company IG with my mates Tau (which I had no knowledge of how to play and a dire first turn shooting phase, literally could not do anything, but I could have won the game via Objectives had it ended turn 5 or 6) and I've seen Reecius use Elysians alongside Skyhammer and a Raptors CAD against DE/Eldar.

DKoK is best used in their Assault Regiment from IA12 because unfortunately the revamped IA for the Siege of Vraks hasn't fixed much regarding their detachment/options for their Siege Regiment so they're still relegated to just artillery spam. The Assault Regiment gives greater mobility and awesome rules letting you have chenkov's old rule of sending in the next wave except for entire platoons when they're fully destroyed.

Elysians have gotten a lot better with the updated IA3 (whichever one with the tyranids) since the special rules gives them army-wide WS/BS4 in addition to awesome special weapons teams.

Not sure about ABC, all I've really heard is beast hunter shells being spammed out the wazoo with the plethora of MC in the game nowadays.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Something tells me that your definition of "unkillable" doesn't match mine. As a Daemons player I've murdered every Guardsmen blob I've ever played against within the span of two turns. In what way exactly does one make a blob "unkillable"?

Lets match definitions. My definition is that I have lost the blob one time, in total ever.

How many times must it survive before you (personally) start calling it seemingly unkillable?

In any event, the fun part here is that you can just do it yourself and try it for a few games. it takes getting used to. For me it took a while to figure out how aggressive I could be with it and how aggressive I NEEDED to be with it. Once i figured all that out it was pretty easy to play.

You know what else AM has thats good? Vendettas. Some of the heartiest anti-air you can get ad it hovers. that's pretty amazing. I also think highly of some of their Leman Russ variants (and not so highly of others). manticores always do work for me. So I find them to be pretty good. Their Elites slots are a weakness relatively speaking but even there, you can get a little creative. HQ's are force multiplirs in a big way.

I love that you literally didn't even try to answer my question.

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I find it hard to believe that nobody can scare up an IKT with the ML and a couple ASMs with double Flamer kit. That auto-wins the blob.

It's called "anti-armour weapons".

Not difficult.

AT in a Guard blob? what are you smoking?

I'm assuming he's smoking the same stuff as Janky, with the 4 Lascannons that can't fire when the HtH blob charges or consolidates.

Even better if he's spending +15 pts for the Plasma Guns that won't do jack against my IKT.

Or just get two squads of meltavets in Chimeras and use the points saved to get an Imperial Knight.

And how many points does that add on top of the 600+ for the blob?

I think I get to add another IKT if you're adding.

"My guard-star is good because it only died once."

Yeah well my reaver Titan has literally never fallen below half hull points in 3 years of big games. He's still an overcosted statue in my backfield that takes all game to make his points back.

And I take it you don't run into the best and most competitive assassin much. Mr. Cool riding his stolen drop pod can set anyone relying on powers up for a very bad day.

Got any tourney reports of your guard performance to back up any of your claims? Or is this just "it does well in my little flgs so it must be good everywhere" syndrome?

He says he plays tourney style, but doesn't attend the big ones because he has nothing to prove. It is part of Jancoran's "avoid the big question" style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does someone want to pit an equivalent amount of Decurion Flayed Ones against the Blobguard star that was spoken of? That would be hilarious.

(Commissars priests psykers etc all count as HQs but do not take up a slot)

*the more you know*

But guys, this is just Little Fish Big Pond syndrome at work. Yes, we all know that you can pick any kind of anti infantry tech and remove a guard blob. No, a 50 man platoon with 10 special characters is not an unkillable death machine against a decent optimized list. But, in a non competitive meta you can make pretty much anything seem super powerful.

When I started playing I ran Space Wolves all footslogging. Guess how I felt about Basilisks and LRBT?

When will I think Guard Blobs are unkillable? Never. Last game I played I took my Harlequins against two guard blobs and by the end of the game, which was extremely close, I had removed 75. The last game I played Guard I ran my blob featuring flamers, Coteaz, a priest and an extra psychic inquisitor. After two turns under fire from a three whirlwind squadron it was down for the count, 4++ from divination notwithstanding.

Basically any mass infantry killing weapon kills guard. All the expensive characters in the world doesn't change that, pretty much the only psychic power that actually protects them is Invisibility...which you can't get from the IG codex.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I have a question, has anyone had success with the FW detachments (DKoK, Elysians, Armoured Battle Company)?

I remember facing off against Armoured Battle Company IG with my mates Tau (which I had no knowledge of how to play and a dire first turn shooting phase, literally could not do anything, but I could have won the game via Objectives had it ended turn 5 or 6) and I've seen Reecius use Elysians alongside Skyhammer and a Raptors CAD against DE/Eldar.

Dkok Siege Regiment does beautiful, beautiful artillery spam, for the price of a LR, you get 2 Earthshakers that you can give orders too (even if the best orders were taken away), Thudd Guns are cheap and go in the elite slot, they're not as good as Wyverns, but pretty decent (more STR, less AP, no special rule, tho they might get pinning back if FW emails are any indications) so you're covered in both heavy and light artillery, You could have 9 Earthshakers and 12 Thudd Guns along with a MoO and still have plenty of points in a 2k games for support stuff and troops.

And the Hades Drill is tons of fun, but kinda wonky.

Thing is, I don't really need dedicated anti-infantry. I can take IKTs which do everything better. That is where it's obvious that both the blob, and the IG Codex fall short.

Izural wrote:
So what I'm getting from this, is you would willingly shove all your IC's, in a T3 shell that has to footslog, with ML1 psykers. With only their t-shirts to save them?

Have you met our friend? I call him Will the Whirlwind.
He's AP5, Ignores cover and comes in squadrons!

You really need to ponder the unit a bit more. Whirlwinds can fire for as long as they are alive though. Which...you know... may not be long? After all, whatever the "perfect answer" is to the blob, his buddies are trying to kill. So there's that. Though I would be pleasantly amused to see a Whirlwind fielded in a Tournament. An unusual choice given the alternatives. But sure, it will try.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Well if he named the Thunderfire, you'd have even less ground to stand on.

Also good that you admitted that you're trolling.

I lost 2 games, with IG, in 6th edition. I played lots.

I've won 1 game in 7th, with IG. I've played lots. The codex lost key mobility options, everyone else is getting stronger, and the core rules more or less require highly mobile units to be able to actively achieve objectives.

The codex could work if you could determine your deployment zone before placing objectives. That's not the case. You can't cluster a whole bunch of objectives in your DZ, to ensure that you can defensively hold ground. It's what the Guard codex does, rather well, all things considered. But that does not win games, so Guard are relatively weak right now.

The codex isn't gawdawful, it's just got the tools for a different game. Like trying to carve wood with kitchen implements. It's not that the knives aren't sharp, but they aren't designed to shape wood, so you have a harder time accomplishing your goals. While other people have power tools designed to shape wood, you're stuck with knives and forks.

Imagine "8th Edition" in which you could plan on creating a defensive stronghold, and you win if you can hold your ground. The Guard codex would be pretty good. Think about the last time someone used fortifications. It's been a long time. I used them constantly in 6th. Stopped using them after two games of 7th. The codex could be strong, in a different edition. Just not 7th.

There's still blazingly gak options. Your argument doesn't work for CSM's and it doesn't work for AM.

 greatbigtree wrote:


The codex isn't gawdawful, it's just got the tools for a different game.

It's still really largely built around it's 5E iteration, and had adjustments made to account for perceived 5E balance issues, the problem being that it came out IIRC 6 weeks before 7E

Seekers + Herald pretty much auto-win vs. the supposedly "Deathblob" IG...

1. Herald challenges the offending Psyker w/Forewarning
2. Throw out a stupid amount of high WS & Initiative attacks
3. Profit?

No need even for Invis cheapness. Seekers could viably charge the blob within a single turn too due to their speed.

Hell, for real lolz, give the Herald the Doomstone and enjoy watching all those expensive characters explode!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Seekers + Herald pretty much auto-win vs. the supposedly "Deathblob" IG...

1. Herald challenges the offending Psyker w/Forewarning
2. Throw out a stupid amount of high WS & Initiative attacks
3. Profit?

No need even for Invis cheapness. Seekers could viably charge the blob within a single turn too due to their speed.

Hell, for real lolz, give the Herald the Doomstone and enjoy watching all those expensive characters explode!

Dude.
He has a whole army that can be killing things.
You're just not seeing it's genius.

I mean, 40 str 3 attacks? With re-rolls to hit and wound?
4 LCs?
3 ML 1 psykers?
3 Priests?
T 3 with a 4++ save (with a successful cast, but 3 psykers...)?
40 Lasguns?

All for the low low cost of 600+ points?
He has another 1200 points of army. It doesn't matter that you have another 1400 points of army, that 1200 will be killing stuff.



Seriously, a bunch of us have shown that the basilisk, LRBT, Rough Riders (which honestly shocked me) and this blob are pretty weak. They aren't going to listen to reason, so let's not address them directly.
I don't want a repeat of our discussion where my 20 scatterbikes went through mitosis and become 40, and that 20 bikes is list tailoring/netlisting but taking 15 to a tournament is original.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

Was he trolling you with well-written, well-presented and above all accurate arguments again?

Well guard is a turtle up type of army. Sit back behind cover and go to ground when getting fired at to gain those sweet cover saves.

And blow everything up with ur bigs guns. But yeah, objective wise I don't see them speeding across the board to apture objectives all over.

The IG aren't even good at turtling up. Our tanks are made of cardboard, and our infantry would have a better save if they ran around naked.

Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

Oh fer gak's sake, the entire IG codex gets torn apart by the uncompetitive units of most other armies.

Lol.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Lol.

 reds8n wrote:
If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion then don't post.

Akiasura wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

The fact that its nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Lol.

 reds8n wrote:
If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion then don't post.

Stop trolling.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.

Let's break this down.
AV14 spam with no Jink saves, what kind of saves do they get to make against Haywire attacks?

Because y'know, Haywire is a thing in this game. And it does make a mockery of AV14.

Whats the matter Wardian, dont like having your own methods used against you? Because I recall you quoting someone and answering it with that very same Reds8n quote.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

The fact that its nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

What part is that?
We used averages, and without any support from the rest of the army. For example, the eldar scatbikes could have guide or a similar power cast on them and cause a lot more wounds to the blob. I even ignored the fact that it causes ID to anything with more than 1 wound if they are T3.
Scat bikes in numbers like 20 are commonly seen in eldar lists in the competitive scene. Even the person purposing it is taking 15 in a 1500 point tournament. It's not hard to imagine he'd up it by 5 more if the tournament was in the 1800 range, which was the point range we were discussing.

Seekers can make it into melee T1/T2 pretty reliably. Crazy fast and with a bucket load of attacks.

Wraiths are also fast and too tough for this unit to handle. Wraiths are probably the most commonly scene necron unit in the competitive scene. Most guns in the IG dex don't ID wraiths and they get an invul save, making them a pain to remove. Wraiths are also very fast.

3 units of drop pods are not uncommon either.

As for the tanks, drop pods will usually be able to target rear armor. You can bubble wrap to prevent this, but then you can't take the blob since it eats up too many points between that and the tanks.
Fire dragons don't need to target rear armor. It costs a lot of points to remove WS from the table, and most competitive eldar lists have 2 or 3 units of them. Most of the time by T2 they are unloading into your lines given their insane speed.
Melee attacks, especially from MC, can destroy most tanks as well, since the rear armor is so low.
Gauss really doesn't care about your armor. It destroys AV 11 as fast as AV 6,000. Only HP matters.
Grav weapons also don't care about AV. They can be deep strikes using Tiggy, and with split fire can remove 2 tanks a turn starting early game. It's very hard for IG to remove 2+ saves with a guy in the front casting invis or re-rolling his saves. They also have hurricane bolters to remove guard if they have to, and the re-rolling to wound on the grav guns means it's not terrible against IG (not great, but not god awful).

Nothing is exaggerated. You can make a case for being able to kill WS (though I'd like to know how, between jink, speed, toughness) but the rest pretty much just happen.

@Akiasura: Don't forget that the Slaany Herald that always comes with those Seekers can forcibly challenge out the most problematic character in the IG deathblob. Such as the specific Psyker w/Forewarning, and reliably butcher him. (6A base at WS7/Initiative crazy & ap2)

That's what really makes the Seeker unit an auto-hard counter to the blob, as its accompanying Herald is one of the only models in the game capable of reliably singling out a specific enemy character, who has no way to avoid the challenge.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

Experiment 626 wrote:
@Akiasura: Don't forget that the Slaany Herald that always comes with those Seekers can forcibly challenge out the most problematic character in the IG deathblob. Such as the specific Psyker w/Forewarning, and reliably butcher him. (6A base at WS7/Initiative crazy & ap2)

That's what really makes the Seeker unit an auto-hard counter to the blob, as its accompanying Herald is one of the only models in the game capable of reliably singling out a specific enemy character, who has no way to avoid the challenge.

Yeah, I didn't want to include any support units despite the fact that, outside of necrons, stacking buffs is what makes the best codexes...well the best. Dexes like IG and Chaos Marines are filled with Skornergy.

Honestly I don't think the herald is needed, though he does seal the deal.
Does the power go away once the psyker is dead or would they still benefit from it? I know in 6th the blob losing their save giving person was catastrophic and happened immediately but I believe it's worded now that the buff would stay in place. Not sure though.

@ Typically Wardian,
My calculations included the 4++ save, and was causing roughly 23 or so wounds per turn. Without guide. With guide this gets worse, as the two main sources of damage loss are the hit chance and save.
Against the shooting units, their combat ability doesn't matter. They are too slow to catch scatbikes, for example, and with proper placement will only catch 1 squad of drop pod marines usually. Especially with a conga line placement like what is being advertised.

Against the CC units, Wraiths are simply too tough and cause too many wounds before they get to strike. Not charging cripples this unit (it almost cuts their attacks in half) and they are too slow to get the charge off against most armies combat units. Their low init also means they lose models before getting to strike, further reducing their attacks. Wraiths hit on 3's, wound on 2s, and the save is pretty good (it's the only reason they don't pretty much wipe after one turn). Guardsmen hit on 4's, wound on 6's (rerolling), need to get through 3++, then a 4+, and nothing they have stops that. The axes are slightly better, wounding on 5's. Each wraith has 2 wound, and for 600+ points you can get quite a bit of wraiths.

We aren't exaggerating, and I did take the stats of the models into account.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Yeah, that wonderful 4++ save which I can shut down on turn one with my Vindicare, and if your psyker does live I can just keep on denying.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

Even with the 4++ (which they don't reliably get) you're still going to remove masses of models against dedicated anti infantry tech.

I had the 4++ against those whirlwinds (in a squadron they got shred) and they got rid of 15-18 models with a single shot, and with barrage I was making a ton of LOS checks to try and save characters.

You're really not presenting an impossible to remove unit, I'm sorry. T3 4++ models are not magically difficult to remove. You need 100 wounds against those models to remove a 50 man blob, right? I can do that with ork boyz, whirlwinds, Thunderfires, bolters...they're a pain in the butt to remove; it's true. But there's almost nothing that DOESNT remove them. That's their real trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yeah, that wonderful 4++ save which I can shut down on turn one with my Vindicare, and if your psyker does live I can just keep on denying.

Technically it's really long odds to remove a Prim Psyker in one turn with a Vindicare.

You'd have to roll the D3 shot, which is...50% to wound 50% to avoid LOS 66% to get a 2 or 3? I almost always find I'd rather take out priests with the Vindicare.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

A 4++ save doesn't help when you're only T3. You're going to be taking a ton of wounds, and you're only saving 50% of them.

'Cannot be made to fall back' doesn't matter when your opponent can just blow your super unit off the board.

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Primaris Psykers can be taken at ML2, and you can have three of them. You have a very, very good chance of getting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

Well if you can't get a unit that tough to survive, you *do* need to "git gud".

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Primaris Psykers can be taken at ML2, and you can have three of them. You have a very, very good chance of getting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

Well if you can't get a unit that tough to survive, you *do* need to "git gud".

How does a unit that is slow and needs to reach melee combat, and benefits in no way from cover, avoid scat bikes? How does such a large unit avoid pods? How does such a large unit avoid wraiths?
All these units have greater range and speed than the blob.

Typically-Wardian, I'm just going to repeat what I said on the other thread:

 vipoid wrote:

But it doesn't matter, does it? Your mind is already made up, and you have no intention of letting the facts sway you.

You started a thread asking how people could possibly think IG were underpowered. Many people took the time to reply and gave you many, many reasons why IG are demonstrably underpowered. You ignored all of them. Because that wasn't what the thread was about. You had no intention of ever actually listening - you just wanted conformation of your own personal bias against IG. When you failed to get it because your bias was just that - unfounded bias, you instead resorted to non-arguments to try and justify your bias, insisting that everyone else must just be wrong and you are the only person who can see the truth.

I see no point whatsoever in trying to argue with you because you have demonstrated that you simply won't listen. You will remain in a state of denial until reality itself alters to fit your baseless beliefs.

 vipoid wrote:
Typically-Wardian, I'm just going to repeat what I said on the other thread:

 vipoid wrote:

But it doesn't matter, does it? Your mind is already made up, and you have no intention of letting the facts sway you.

You started a thread asking how people could possibly think IG were underpowered. Many people took the time to reply and gave you many, many reasons why IG are demonstrably underpowered. You ignored all of them. Because that wasn't what the thread was about. You had no intention of ever actually listening - you just wanted conformation of your own personal bias against IG. When you failed to get it because your bias was just that - unfounded bias, you instead resorted to non-arguments to try and justify your bias, insisting that everyone else must just be wrong and you are the only person who can see the truth.

I see no point whatsoever in trying to argue with you because you have demonstrated that you simply won't listen. You will remain in a state of denial until reality itself alters to fit your baseless beliefs.

And again, exalted

I can either reply with anecdotal evidence (how, for instance, the one psyker who has the power could like in my last game be targeted by large blast barrages, causing him to take a couple dozen Look Out Sir tests and knock him out after just one successful cast) or I could respond with some simple math (such as wgat fraction of the blob can be removed with a simple, common flamer drop pod unt even with the 4++) but you're gonna listen to either of those. You've somehow got it in your head that there's no possible way that any army could ever cause 100 wounds to a T3 unit, and far be it from me to tell you that you're wrong.

Akiasura wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
@Akiasura: Don't forget that the Slaany Herald that always comes with those Seekers can forcibly challenge out the most problematic character in the IG deathblob. Such as the specific Psyker w/Forewarning, and reliably butcher him. (6A base at WS7/Initiative crazy & ap2)

That's what really makes the Seeker unit an auto-hard counter to the blob, as its accompanying Herald is one of the only models in the game capable of reliably singling out a specific enemy character, who has no way to avoid the challenge.

Yeah, I didn't want to include any support units despite the fact that, outside of necrons, stacking buffs is what makes the best codexes...well the best. Dexes like IG and Chaos Marines are filled with Skornergy.

Honestly I don't think the herald is needed, though he does seal the deal.
Does the power go away once the psyker is dead or would they still benefit from it? I know in 6th the blob losing their save giving person was catastrophic and happened immediately but I believe it's worded now that the buff would stay in place. Not sure though.

If you're going to take Seekers, then the Herald is pretty much 100% mandatory. Sure she's not really needed against Guardsmen - even the 600pts deathblob, but against pretty much everything else in the game that's more than 5 Tactical Marines, you really need that Exalted Locus boost. Otherwise, all you are is a bunch of really fast Wyches with Rending.
Plus the Locus is key for keeping the Herald nearly untouchable, as you can ensure that she stays locked into easily winnable challenges against basic Sergeant equivalents, or else can pick out those few critical supporters such as the Divination Psyker or Priest or whatever.

And no, the unit doesn't auto lose their 4++ from Forewarning until the beginning of their next player turn. So that initial round where the Psyker bites it, they still have the 4++. After that Assault phase though, it's lights out!

Actually, if/when you see any kind of super character intensive deathstar unit with Daemons, it's fun to take the Doomstone from the Hellforged Artifacts.
Every non-Daemon character involved in the same combat as the bearer gets to take a Ld test. If failed, they get nuked with -D6 Ld for the rest of the game - if a model is reduced to 0Ld, it's simply removed from the game! Works wonders against deathstars that are build around lots of Ld8 and worse characters. (I used to take it to explode those annoying JetSeerstars in 6th)

It's not so hot against Marine deathstars mind, but even then, you're still forcing a bucket load of Ld checks, and some are bound to fail.

Now if only the Lore of Slaanesh had a proper Ld nuking power like it should...

These two are obviously some kind of troll tag team. They simply refuse to listen to any logic or multitude of examples given by the large majority of everyone else, be it mathhammer or the fact that an IG army hasn't won a single tournament in emperor knows how long.

These guys are a lost cause, and all the banter is simply feeding their agenda. Lock this thread already.

T-W has even put up a troll thread. Pretty much admits he's a troll.

You mean the thread that got locked in under 10 minutes? Ah yes good times.

He got 7 pages of IG trolling, so I'm guessing he's calling it a win. I ignored him a while back, and now I'm dropping out of this thread. You might want to stop feeding him, too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if he named the Thunderfire, you'd have even less ground to stand on.

Also good that you admitted that you're trolling.

/smh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

Except you'e wrong on all those counts. Other thaneverything you just said, you have a point. It's exceedingly tough to kill, demonstrably. That's not a claim you can refute because its actually been demonstrated in real games instead of just OpinionHammer on a forum. . Shooting isn't its primary puprose though it does do that very accurately and to deadly effect when its asked to. So. Demonstrably survivable CAPABLE of shooting and not overly dedicated ot that task in most games..

It doesnt bother me much that there is anti-IG sentiment. I see the same thing for Sisters of Battle. I can't help but chuckle, but it happens all the time. I also won all three games at todays tournament which was cool, using Chaos Marines. I'll be attending tomorrow's tournament with Adepta Sororitas.


Here's a querstion for those who may play IG on a regular basis: What would you say are the top Five units in the IG Codex?

My favorites?

Vendetta: impressive beast of a sky shark and no slouch against ground targets. that it's a tranport i s just too much gravy. Compare it to other 170 point planes and its hard to find one that's as good for the same points.
Punisher: In its role as an anti-personnel war machine, it's got it where it counts: High STR, high rate of fire and with Pask, a truly impressive suppression fire weapon.
Demolition Veterans: able to parachute in and bring some devastating firepower to a grouping, or lie in wait for the big mean nasties to make their presence known. I admire their payload and with the simple expedient of a guardian Angel with better armor attached, or evev two, they can plague an enemy in a seriously damaging way for a couple of turns or more.
Yarrick: I don't use him much for various reasons, but he is a fairly great character for what you get. He gives orders which is huge, and he has fortitude. He's a good force multiplier. He really isn't exorbitantly priced (though he flirts at the border I'd say and it wouldnt be hard to find someone to argue that point)
Deathstrike Missile Launcher: absolutely terrifying answer to all your enemy liquidation needs. Its the thing that goes bump in the night and God save you should it manage to pull the trigger. It is this war machines victims fpr whom the bells toll.

Those are the top gems I think there are in the Astra Militarum Codex.

You hear that, guys? He won a tournament at his LGS where everything is super casual using Chaos Space Marines!

We are all clearly wrong on our assessment of the AM Codex, when he's the only one defending it. Time to pack it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people disparage Sisters because the model range sucks, the army is expensive (due to the first point, kinda) and the codex is ENTIRELY mono build. Then again you probably discovered the secret to Repentia and we're just too stupid and need to L2P.

Jancoran, you didn't include Wyverns? They are one of the few good units in the book.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if he named the Thunderfire, you'd have even less ground to stand on.

Also good that you admitted that you're trolling.

/smh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

Except you'e wrong on all those counts. Other thaneverything you just said, you have a point. It's exceedingly tough to kill, demonstrably. That's not a claim you can refute because its actually been demonstrated in real games instead of just OpinionHammer on a forum. . Shooting isn't its primary puprose though it does do that very accurately and to deadly effect when its asked to. So. Demonstrably survivable CAPABLE of shooting and not overly dedicated ot that task in most games..

It doesnt bother me much that there is anti-IG sentiment. I see the same thing for Sisters of Battle. I can't help but chuckle, but it happens all the time. I also won all three games at todays tournament which was cool, using Chaos Marines.

What did you play against, and what sort of house rules were in effect?

I mean, I've won my share of games with IG and CSM at multiple 7E events, even going undefeated at a couple of them, but these were relatively small tournaments and I never had to face top tier lists, or for that matter, in most cases, top tier opponents (with no disrespect meant to any of those I played against, they just weren't the ultra competitive top tier gamer types). When you're playing in pools like that, it's relatively easy to be a big fish.

When you look at larger events however, things like NOVA, BAO, Adepticon, etc, you don't see CSM's or IG winning or placing anything near the top, particularly as anything but small allied contingents to a more powerful list (and even that is increasingly rare)

Here's a querstion for those who may play IG on a regular basis: What would you say are the top Five units in the IG Codex?

My favorites?

Vendetta: impressive beast of a sky shark and no slouch against ground targets. that it's a tranport i s just too much gravy. Compare it to other 170 point planes and its hard to find one that's as good for the same points.
Punisher: In its role as an anti-personnel war machine, it's got it where it counts: High STR, high rate of fire and with Pask, a truly impressive suppression fire weapon.
Demolition Veterans: able to parachute in and bring some devastating firepower to a grouping, or lie in wait for the big mean nasties to make their presence known. I admire their payload and with the simple expedient of a guardian Angel with better armor attached, or evev two, they can plague an enemy in a seriously damaging way for a couple of turns or more.
Yarrick: I don't use him much for various reasons, but he is a fairly great character for what you get. He gives orders which is huge, and he has fortitude. He's a good force multiplier. He really isn't exorbitantly priced (though he flirts at the border I'd say and it wouldnt be hard to find someone to argue that point)
Deathstrike Missile Launcher: absolutely terrifying answer to all your enemy liquidation needs. Its the thing that goes bump in the night and God save you should it manage to pull the trigger. It is this war machines victims fpr whom the bells toll.

Those are the top gems I think there are in the Astra Militarum Codex.

I personally don't think any of these would be on my list. Here's my thinking as to why.

Vendettas are "OK'. They were amazing in 5E when they could start on the board and just let loose with that turn 1 alpha strike, but having to sit in reserve they're very "ho-hum". I mean, yes, relative to most other Flyers, they're pretty good, though most flyers are also pretty naff, particularly next to FMC's. Not terrible, but not amazing either, at least in my experience.

The Punisher is "ok", but it's not really a gem. On average, against a perfect target like say, Orks in the open, it'll average 8-9 kills if they're within that optimal 24" range, or about 48-54pts worth of dead Orks. Not terrible, but certainly not worthy of gem status either. If they're even getting 5+ cover however, the effectiveness plummets dramatically. Adding in Pask upps the killy power, but also drastically increases the cost, as you then *must* buy another tank as well in addition to Pask. What the Punisher is really good for isn't anti-personnel or mowing down hordes of muppets, there really are better tools for that. It's also not really a "high Str" unit either, S5 is at the upper range of small arms and the very bottom of anti-infantry heavy weapons. What the Punisher's best role really is, is as a finisher. 3+sv MC sitting there with one wound left? 2 or 3 Marines survived everything else thrown at them? 5 Grots left on an objective? That's where the Punisher really finds its best purpose, is in ensuring the removal of those "almost dead" units that you just really need gone and really just need a ton of dice to ensure they fail enough of *something* to just finally go away.

The Deathstrike is hardly impressive anymore. You don't know when it gets to fire, it only gets to shoot once, and it can't fire on the first turn, and there are plenty of other units that bring similar firepower at this point. Sure they cost more, but they're also way more survivable, can fire turn 1, and can fire more than once. There's a reason you basically never see Deathstrikes.I mean, yeah, S10 AP1 No Cover 10" blast looks sweet on paper. But it's so easy for an opponent to neutralize or mitigate it, particularly if not taken in multiples (and I don't think I've ever actually seen them taken in multiples in a list). It has a huge *potential* killing power relative to its cost, but it's actual *average* damage output is actually very low as a result of an opponent having the opportunity to neutralize it before it can do anything and its random firing point, and if the thing made it to turn 2 but didn't get to fire, it almost certainly won't live to turn 3 against a competent opponent running a functional army. I also don't think I've ever seen one in a serious tournament list...ever, in 6 years, precisely for the above reasons.

Yarrick has the problem of not only being expensive, but, if not put in a Blob, relatively easy to destroy. He doesn't have an attached command squad, and he's not doing much for a Chimeltavet squad. In artillery-park armies he's got some better utility, but outside of that he's really ridiculously expensive.

If an opponent has read your army list, Demo vets will never really get a chance to "lie in wait" for anything unless your opponent has completely forgotten about them, they'll be specifically targeted for removal, and aren't particularly hard to remove. They have some utility in a Valkyrie, but that's a minimum 215pt investment for a single pieplate. Can be fun, but unless an opponent just has no idea what they're equipped with (in which case they didn't properly read the army list or you're trying to pull a trick on them that'll only ever work once), they're really not useful defensively, and offensively there's just usually better ways to get pieplates.


For me, my gems are

Wyverns. Very cheap, utterly expendable, and put out muppet-mowing firepower that a Punisher could only wish it had.
Company Command Squads - BS4, Senior Officer Orders, and 4x Special Weapons. Always great units.

I think personally that's where I'd call it in terms of "gems", there are other, functional things, but not really any really super "standout" performers.

In terms of top "functional" units however, to complete a top 5, I'd add these three.

Leman Russ Exterminator - These can be set up such that they can be functional and valuable against literally any opposition, they'll always have *something* to do (unlike say, a Vanquisher against a Green Tide, a Punisher against Knights, or a Demolisher against a nid FMC-spam list). They may not excel at any one role, but they can at least be functional in any role, and very good in a couple. With HB sponsons and a hull lascannon, it's not outrageously expensive, but can put at least *some* hurt out on anything in the game, can do so from across the board, and is actually pretty great at popping transports and killing lighter flyers.

Leman Russ Eradicator - Better than a Hellhound at the Hellhounds dedicated role for basically the same price, but with AV14 and double the range to make up for less speed.

Blob platoons - can be made to do a lot of different shennanigans, can often take enormous amounts of punishment, they're just expensive and largely rather slow, and it's really easy to tie up lots of firepower and upgrades in this unit that will end up having mutually exclusive roles.

 Jancoran wrote:
It's exceedingly tough to kill, demonstrably.

Except people have already showed you just how easy it is to kill.

 Jancoran wrote:
That's not a claim you can refute because its actually been demonstrated in real games instead of just OpinionHammer on a forum.

I don't even know how to respond to a statement this fallacious and idiotic, so I'll just add some more facepalms:




Also:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/01/fallacies-i-use-it-and-it-works-for-me/

You list Deathstrike missiles as a "gem"? You...wot mate? I don't think I've ever seen them take out their points, ever. Your opponent needs to play really stupidly to not take him out and/or deploy in such a way that 1 blast can't take out 170 points of guys.

Why use that for strength 10 AP1 ignores cover when you could have A) a manticore for more reliable strength 10, B) an eradicator for more reliable ignores cover, or C) a Demolisher/battlecannon/whatever for more reliable low ap? Heck if I really, REALLY wanted low ap ignored over blasts id just do the baneblade variant that does that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You list Deathstrike missiles as a "gem"? You...wot mate? I don't think I've ever seen them take out their points, ever. Your opponent needs to play really stupidly to not take him out and/or deploy in such a way that 1 blast can't take out 170 points of guys.

Why use that for strength 10 AP1 ignores cover when you could have A) a manticore for more reliable strength 10, B) an eradicator for more reliable ignores cover, or C) a Demolisher/battlecannon/whatever for more reliable low ap? Heck if I really, REALLY wanted low ap ignored over blasts id just do the baneblade variant that does that.

I'm beginning to wonder if Jancoran is Typically-Wardian's alternate account.

 vipoid wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if Jancoran is Typically-Wardian's alternate account.

I've been thinking the exact same thing.

Although the Deathstrike missile comment gave me a giggle xD

The way I see it, the biggest problem that the Imperial Guard have, besides being designed for two editions previous, is a distinct lack of mobility and cost-effective firepower. Sure, they have transports, but they're either overpriced or ineffective. The same goes with their tanks. Off the top of my head, here are some of the things that need changing for IG:

Reduce the cost of all Leman Russ variants. The cheapest should be around 120 points, with the vanilla LRBT being 140. Bring back Lumbering Behemoth to let all variants fire Ordnance weapons without having to snapfire other weapons.

Reduce the cost of the Chimera to 55 points. The only reason the cost was increased was to nerf veterans in Chimeras. The Guard need their mobility back, and so the nerf should be undone.

Reduce the cost of the Taurox to 45 points, give people a reason to take it.

Reduce the cost of the Valkyrie to 115 points, make its missiles no longer Ordnance. The Vendetta was rightly given a cost increase, but the Valkyrie needs to be cheaper to provide more mobility.

Reduce the cost of the Basilisk to 100 points. Artillery is one of the only things the guard have going for them.

Increase the cost of the Wyvern to 80-85 points. I hate those things as someone who plays a lot of infantry. The fact that one of them costs as much as a Venom or Razorback is just insulting.

Add some formations, rework orders and thier platoon structure for more flexibility, and IG suddenly start to look decent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You hear that, guys? He won a tournament at his LGS where everything is super casual using Chaos Space Marines!

We are all clearly wrong on our assessment of the AM Codex, when he's the only one defending it. Time to pack it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also people disparage Sisters because the model range sucks, the army is expensive (due to the first point, kinda) and the codex is ENTIRELY mono build. Then again you probably discovered the secret to Repentia and we're just too stupid and need to L2P.

Actually I did it out of state. Not locally. How many tournies did you win Best General at this weekend? Me? I won two, at two different places, out of state. So spare me. Oh yeah. And the second? Yeah I won the second one with Sisters of Battle. I have earned my chops many times so do not condescend to me, friend. While youre busy talking, I'm actually doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Jancoran, you didn't include Wyverns? They are one of the few good units in the book.

Wyverns are pretty awesome.

 Jancoran wrote:
How many tournies did you win Best General at this weekend? Me? I won two, at two different places, out of state.

He won four.

And that claim would be just as credible as yours.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
How many tournies did you win Best General at this weekend? Me? I won two, at two different places, out of state.

He won four.

And that claim would be just as credible as yours.

And yet, there I was, undefeated with these armies you "cannot win" with. The War Convocation player at Rainy Day Games can tell you all about his game against Sisters of Battle. Just dial up facebook. Sisters for the win.

EDIT: Oh and Damon Scythe (an employee) who is on that page, also can speak to the Night Lords wins. So. Just saying.

 Jancoran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
How many tournies did you win Best General at this weekend? Me? I won two, at two different places, out of state.

He won four.

And that claim would be just as credible as yours.

And yet, there I was, undefeated with these armies you "cannot win" with. The War Convocation player at Rainy Day Games can tell you all about his game against Sisters of Battle. Just dial up facebook. Sisters for the win.

EDIT: Oh and Damon Scythe (an employee) who is on that page, also can speak to the Night Lords wins. So. Just saying.

Sorry. I'm going to have to call bull .

In order for you to have even a *modicum* of 'credibility' here, you're going to need to do a few things, because your last couple of posts have been eye-roll worthy at best, and I'll note that's all they're worth.

First, post your exact lists used to 'win' these mythical tournaments.

Second, post the exact lists you opponents used. (Not off your memory here, I'm talking about exactly what they played).

Third, include any and every house rule used by the T.O. as well as missions played.

Fourth, give date, time, location (address), and contact information for the store/location these mythical 'tournaments' occurred at this weekend so that a neutral third party can contact each of them and ask said T.O.'s if your list is accurate, if the games played were accurate, and if your list was the overall winner of one or both of these tournaments. I'm not asking for an internet handle, I'm asking for names and phone numbers for two different specific T.O.'s to verify you're not just bumping your gums here.

If you can provide the above information and it checks out, then good on you. I don't foresee that being the case, however.

Keep on blustering, bud, because I play Guard (Vostroyan Firstborn) and against a moderately competent opponent playing any of the newer codexes such as Necrons, Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines, or Tau, it's an uphill battle from the start. Not saying a win can't be had with Guard, far from it, I get wins semi-regularly with them, but it takes a fair amount of luck and more often than not a fair amount of bad luck for my opponent to eke out a victory in a tournament setting with mono Guard, and I say that as someone who's been playing Guard almost exclusively for the better part of 6+ years now.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

I play Guard (Vostroyan Firstborn) and against a moderately competent opponent playing any of the newer codexes such as Necrons, Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines, or Tau, it's an uphill battle from the start. Not saying a win can't be had with Guard, far from it, I get wins semi-regularly with them, but it takes a fair amount of luck and more often than not a fair amount of bad luck for my opponent to eke out a victory in a tournament setting with mono Guard, and I say that as someone who's been playing Guard almost exclusively for the better part of 6+ years now.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Sorry to hear that you're struggling.

In order to diagnose why Ill need your exact list and that of every opponent that defeated you.


Absurd request? I agree. Asking you that won't help you. Answering it wont help me.

Let me know if things turn around for you. I hope they do.

Jancoran, his request really wasn't absurd.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to use these tournaments you apparently won to prove your point, then you have to be prepared to answer questions about them.

Moreover, are you familiar with the term 'burden of proof'?

it means that if you make a statement - e.g. that you won one or more tournaments - then the burden is on *you* to prove that those statements are true.

If you choose not to provide proof, fine. But, bear in mind that your statements are considered untrue until you can prove otherwise.

 Jancoran wrote:



Sorry to hear that you're struggling.

In order to diagnose why Ill need your exact list and that of every opponent that defeated you.


Absurd request? I agree. Asking you that won't help you. Answering it wont help me.

Let me know if things turn around for you. I hope they do.

Let's try again kiddo.

I'm not struggling. I do pretty well all told, but by-and-large the entire Guard army/Codex is struggling. It's a sub-par book written at the twilight of 6th edition and has fairly poor internal balance on top of being 1.5 editions behind the curve (Post new-school Necrons).

It's not an absurd request. I can claim I've won multiple Grand Tournaments and am a vetted tournament organizer with multiple tournaments I've run over the course of two years. In order for me to *PROVE* that claim, I would need to provide evidence. Example: Contact Van's Comics and Cards, located on Highway 51 in Ridgeland, MS (google it to get the store's number) and ask him if he's had a guy by the name of Drew (Me) run Warhammer 40,000 tournaments in his store in the past. Van (the store's owner) will tell you that I in fact have done so on more than one occasion in the past during 5th edition. (He has moved locations since 6th and no longer has space to host tournaments, sadly).

I can also claim I own a real life bolter shell I won at the Memphis, TN Games Workshop Battle bunker on the weekend of August 28th, 2004 on Friday at the first of three tournaments held that weekend, one on each day. Each of these tournaments granted the winner a real life scale replica of a .75 caliber bolter shell. Guess what?





And before you claim those are conjured up from a google search, I suggest you look at my Blood Angels gallery to see the same keyboard in the background and left hand holding my recently completed miniatures.

That, boys and girls, is how we offer evidence to back up a claim on the internet.

You're full of it, Jancoran, and unless you can provide evidence as I have above to back up your claims, you're just making yourself look like a giant, tea-totaling idiot.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Me gusta.

The individual records of tournament players are moot, they are statistically negligible when weighed against the sum total of games player with Imperial Guard armies.

The Imperial Guard codex is considered underpowered because it loses more than it wins. Like all averages some people are on the top side of that while others are on the bottom side.

We have our good units, we have our bad units. Other armies have better. IG fall short because our best units best combat a type of army and units that just aren't used as much in this edition.

 vipoid wrote:
Jancoran, his request really wasn't absurd.

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to use these tournaments you apparently won to prove your point, then you have to be prepared to answer questions about them.

Moreover, are you familiar with the term 'burden of proof'?

it means that if you make a statement - e.g. that you won one or more tournaments - then the burden is on *you* to prove that those statements are true.

If you choose not to provide proof, fine. But, bear in mind that your statements are considered untrue until you can prove otherwise.

YesI am prety familiar with the term. But Im not the one questioning the right to have an opinion. THAT person can doubt freely butI I dont owe them to be more than honest. But I have delivered, offering you an easy way to contact people who would know. So do it if you care. . And if you dont, good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
The individual records of tournament players are moot, they are statistically negligible when weighed against the sum total of games player with Imperial Guard armies.

The Imperial Guard codex is considered underpowered because it loses more than it wins. Like all averages some people are on the top side of that while others are on the bottom side.

We have our good units, we have our bad units. Other armies have better. IG fall short because our best units best combat a type of army and units that just aren't used as much in this edition.

Not QUITe. To be more accurate the PLAYER may or may not lose more often than they win. You think its the list? The codex? And not at all the guy in the mirror?

No. Codex's don't make you lose. That's just a whiny crutch.

Still waiting for you to formulate a reply there Jancoran. I see you're online.

I've got all night, please, regale us with the information to prove your otherwise baseless claims.

Please.

No. Seriously. I legitimately want to know where these so called tournaments were, and how many people participated in them.



Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

P.S. ....Seriously.

Edit: OH splendid, he replied while I was typing this out. Let's see what he said.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Let's try again kiddo.

It is a shame you choose to condescend again. I'm not your kiddo.

That aside, I just don't owe it to you. I'm sorry. I can share ideas and you can choose what to do next. I'm not the one who needs the help. instead of considering possibilities, you try to make it about me. but it isn't. Never was. This was about a Codex you say is decrepit and that causes you great struggle.

I dont think it's the codex. Like all things, it's whats being done WITH IT, and while I am on record s saying an update would be nice, I find the cries of poverty to be nothing more than sour grapes.

So if you're struggling, I really hope that turns around for you. Until then, just play something else I guess.

Jancoran, do you sincerely believe the IG codex is on the same power level as Eldar, Crons, and Marines (and others I missed)?

It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

 Jancoran wrote:

YesI am prety familiar with the term. But Im not the one questioning the right to have an opinion. THAT person can doubt freely butI dont owe them to be more than honest. But I have delivered, offering you an easy way to contact people who would know. So di it if you care. . And if you dont, good.

Not QUITe. To be more accurate the PLAYER may or may not lose more often than they win. You think its the list? The codex? And not at all the guy in the mirror?

No. Codex's don't make you lose. That's just a whiny crutch.

First, the space bar man, it's your friend, use it.

With that out of the way... are you daft? Nobody is calling your opinion in to question here. I'm asking for you to present evidence to support the claims you are making: I.E. You won two tournaments this weekend with Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle.

You haven't offered anything but an alias on the internet that nobody can verify isn't actually you masquerading as said person. I gave you the store owner's *actual* name, my *actual* name, and *actual* location of the gaming store (including city/state) so that anyone who wishes to verify the veracity of my assertions can do so. You've not done anything even remotely close to that, which is exactly my point.

As for your assertion that the player is to blame entirely, and not the internal balance of the game we're playing and the codexes doesn't have a hand in how often an army (or player) wins or loses is downright laughable and as I said, makes you look like a colossal idiot. Bear in mind, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but you are starting to resemble one quite strongly with your continued postings here.

With that said, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, I'd love to see what other lovely drivel you're prepared to spout.

In closing:



Take it easy, buttercup.

-Red__Thirst-



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

It is a shame you choose to condescend again. I'm not your kiddo.

That aside, I just don't owe it to you. I'm sorry. I can share ideas and you can choose what to do next. I'm not the one who needs the help. instead of considering possibilities, you try to make it about me. but it isn't. Never was. This was about a Codex you say is decrepit and that causes you great struggle.

I dont think it's the codex. Like all things, it's whats being done WITH IT, and while I am on record s saying an update would be nice, I find the cries of poverty to be nothing more than sour grapes.

So if you're struggling, I really hope that turns around for you. Until then, just play something else I guess.

Out of my entire post, you choose

Let's try again kiddo.

to quote? Right.... Moving on.

I'm not condescending, if you're inferring that, then I suggest you go take a breath of fresh air away from the keyboard. I'm trying to be light-hearted about how utterly ludicrous your assertions are there, sparky. Also, your abject failure and refusal to provide evidence to back up and support the claims you're making.

The current AM/IG codex is fun, and fluffy, and I do very well with it all things considered. It's nowhere near as powerful as more recent codexes are however. Specifically Eldar and Tau. I can beat both of these armies, but the odds of me actually doing it consistently and without a lot of luck (both good for me and bad for my opponent) is slim to none. This is a statement born out of *DOZENS* of games I've played against both Eldar, and Tau. I'm not struggling, I'm working with what I'm given, which is only about 1/3 to 1/2 as many viable options as any other modern codex out there (Post-newschool Necrons being the metric I use for 'modern' codex).

I don't need or want to play something else. I enjoy my Vostroyans and the gaming atmosphere I play in now, I win more than I lose. That being said, I have played in tournaments, ranging from small events (some of which I have run as the organizer) all the way up to massive 80+ person tournaments and I can say, emphatically, that the Guard are not viable as a solo codex at present, and are of only middling value as an allied option/choice. You're free to disagree with me if you wish, but one of us has the benefit of both conventional wisdom and common sense, and the other is you.

Looking forward to more stellar posts from you soon there, snowflake. Please keep 'em coming and be sure to address the actual point I'm making instead of claiming I'm decrying your opinion (which anyone reading along here will tell you: I'm not).

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Blacksails wrote:
Jancoran, do you sincerely believe the IG codex is on the same power level as Eldar, Crons, and Marines (and others I missed)?

No. I don't think so. I think that there's only ever one #1, one #2 and so on.

That's not the entire tale though because they are all really being compared on their "win button" modes. So in other words if i take a THEORETICALLY devastating version of one of them and fight 16 different codex's with it, what will be my result, given the same Generals in every test?

So it isn't enough to ask whether the Codex is on the same power level. That question itself is too simplistic to really appreciate what can be done with them despite the RELATIVE differences. And the other discussion we cant possibly have is "Okay if there is a number one, how far apart REALLY is that from #2". Because the degree matters.

So my opinion is better stated as "I do not feel the deviation between the Astra Militarum Codex and its performance in the same capable Generals hands is as great as is being advertised here o nthis thread. That's different than asking me if one is better than the other because there will always be a "better" one That's a statistical given. The Deviation just isn't to the extent some here feel it is.

But lets pretend that it WAS a bigger deviation than i think it is. Lets indulge. in that world, where that's true, you cannot argue with the wins IG plyers are getting even though they are fewer according to those Generals. So the question becomes: if ou are outnumbered and out muscled, can you strategically compenate? Does the Codex ALLOW you to?

If the nswer is yes, then the deviation wasnt s far s YOU thought it was. If the Answer is no, then you might have a point.

Im tired so I feel myself caring less right now. But thats my answer. It is not the number one codex. Neither re Chaos Marines. neither Are Adepta Sororitas. And yet I win with them. Because I make the strategic and tactical decisions required of me to win. And I dont cry and whine about how hard I have it. I find a way. and when I have done that, I then share it. I share the successful usage of a thing some might revile and you just have to ponder it instead of trying to figure out why it doesnt work. Figure out how it could. Figure out WHEN it could. Figure it out. Its a puzzle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:
It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

There is no such list. We toldya that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Nobody is calling your opinion in to question here. I'm asking for you to present evidence to support the claims you are making: I.E. You won two tournaments this weekend with Chaos Space Marines and Sisters of Battle.

You haven't offered anything but an alias on the internet that nobody can verify isn't actually you masquerading as said person.

As for your assertion that the player is to blame entirely...

I'm not condescending, if you're inferring that, then I suggest you go take a breath of fresh air away from the keyboard.

I don't need or want to play something else. I enjoy my Vostroyans and the gaming atmosphere I play in now,

Right. Now you think its some elaborate hoax just to fool you. Lol. Hey man: it;s your world.

Im glad you like your Vostroyans. Keep playing them. In whatever way brings you victories. As i do.

 Jancoran wrote:

No. I don't think so. I think that there's only ever one #1, one #2 and so on.

That's not the entire tale though because they are all really being compared on their "win button" modes. So in other words if i take a THEORETICALLY devastating version of one of them and fight 16 different codex's with it, what will be my result, given the same Generals in every test?

So it isn't enough to ask whether the Codex is on the same power level. That question itself is too simplistic to really appreciate what can be done with them despite the RELATIVE differences. And the other discussion we cant possibly have is "Okay if there is a number one, how far apart REALLY is that from #2". Because the degree matters.

So my opinion is better stated as "I do not feel the deviation between the Astra Militarum Codex and its performance in the same capable Generals hands is as great as is being advertised here o nthis thread. That's different than asking me if one is better than the other because there will always be a "better" one That's a statistical given. The Deviation just isn't to the extent some here feel it is.

But lets pretend that it WAS a bigger deviation than i think it is. Lets indulge. in that world, where that's true, you cannot argue with the wins IG plyers are getting even though they are fewer according to those Generals. So the question becomes: if ou are outnumbered and out muscled, can you strategically compenate? Does the Codex ALLOW you to?

If the nswer is yes, then the deviation wasnt s far s YOU thought it was. If the Answer is no, then you might have a point.

Im tired so I feel myself caring less right now. But thats my answer. It is not the number one codex. Neither re Chaos Marines. neither Are Adepta Sororitas. And yet I win with them. Because I make the strategic and tactical decisions required of me to win. And I dont cry and whine about how hard I have it. I find a way. and when I have done that, I then share it. I share the successful usage of a thing some might revile and you just have to ponder it instead of trying to figure out why it doesnt work. Figure out how it could. Figure out WHEN it could. Figure it out. Its a puzzle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Izural wrote:
It's been what, 4 days since this thread started?

I still see no mythical IG list that wins tournaments and is unkillable.

Unless the list is actually posted so we can discuss it, I think this thread needs locking now.

There is no such list. We toldya that much.

The only puzzle I see here is in the entire post above, where you didn't do anything to prove the claim that you have won any tournament with Chaos Space Marines, or Sisters of Battle. You can't make the claim, then ignore when someone asks for verification/proof that the claim is genuine.
That makes you look like a charlatan and a liar. You saying "it doesn't matter" only adds proverbial fuel to the fire you're now standing in also.

You delving off into the semantics of how vast or narrow the gulf between tiers of codexes are is a strawman that is also rapidly getting burned up in the proverbial fire you've started as well here. Nobody cares what your opinion on the AM/IG codex is. That's yours and yours alone to have, hold, treasure and keep to your heart's desire. The degree in which the codex is weaker or stronger than any other codex is quite frankly irrelevant. The fact remains that the Astra Militarium/Imperial Guard are woefully underpowered when compared to an army like Necrons, or the new Tau, or Eldar, or Space Marines. The things we're supposed to be 'good' at, we're only mediocre at best. Our vehicles, while thickly armored, are amazingly easy to remove because of Haywire, the Gauss/glancing rule, Rending, lance weapons, and just straight up charging in melee and punching the back armor out with melta bombs, Krak grenades, or even power armored fisticuffs. It's not hard to strip three hull points off of a Leman Russ. I know, I've done it in a single shooting phase with one unit on more than one occasion.

It seems we've tuckered you out, so you go get a nap and once you've rested come back and keep trying there big guy. Hopefully you'll be able to give us more than an online alias to prove your statements about your mythical tournament wins this weekend. I'd also love to know the number of players at these tournaments. Were they small affairs? Large? Ten participants? Twenty? Fifty? I'm genuinely curious.

More to come I'm sure. Take it easy there, ole buddy, ole pal.

-Red__Thirst-

It doesn't matter that you can win or not with this codex, or any other for that matter. What matters is that the codex is underpowered, and players who play IG are rightfully disappointed and would like it not to be that way.

Its that simple.

Further, people aren't crying or whining. You might be taken more seriously if you didn't paint other people with such incorrect broad strokes.

I've been playing Guard way back in the mist of time, 2nd edition to be correct. The only time and I mean ONLY time guard were nigh unstoppable was during 5th, and that was due to the leaf blower list.
Guard have and will always be bottom tier (that's 20 years of playing them). They are bad, in fact I'll go to the point of saying they are one of the worst armys ever. Most of what is in the codex sucks, and in every codex they sucked. I'd rate Sisters higher than the guard and they only have one list build.
In summery. Yes the Guard can win but only if its a fluffy game or your opponent is relay bad.

Names, places and pics or it didn't happen Jancoran. You know the rules of the internet

 Jancoran wrote:

Right. Now you think its some elaborate hoax just to fool you. Lol. Hey man: it;s your world.

Im glad you like your Vostroyans. Keep playing them. In whatever way brings you victories. As i do.

I love how you can't seem to quote my entire post but choose to cherry pick out only a few words and/or sentences. How about you address my points instead of deflecting and being misleading. I'm not saying you're trying to fool *me*, I'm saying you have made a public statement and claim on a public forum and expect people to take you at your word when, in fact, you need to prove those claims with evidence. That's on you there spark-plug. Not us. Your refusal to do so just makes you look like a liar and/or an idiot.

I will keep playing my Vostroyans. They're quite entertaining and the manliest I.G. out there. Catachans only wish they could grow a mustache like we can.

Looking forward to seeing more posts from you. You have my *undivided* attention, rest assured.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Looking forward to seeing more posts from you. You have my *undivided* attention, rest assured.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

No use to try and change his mind there. He calls almost everything forgeworld OP to even though there were enough valid arguments against that..

You can't do jack gak against top tier codexes unless it's stupid "Hammer your face on a brick wall" luck.

 Jancoran wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
The individual records of tournament players are moot, they are statistically negligible when weighed against the sum total of games player with Imperial Guard armies.

The Imperial Guard codex is considered underpowered because it loses more than it wins. Like all averages some people are on the top side of that while others are on the bottom side.

We have our good units, we have our bad units. Other armies have better. IG fall short because our best units best combat a type of army and units that just aren't used as much in this edition.

Not QUITe. To be more accurate the PLAYER may or may not lose more often than they win. You think its the list? The codex? And not at all the guy in the mirror?

No. Codex's don't make you lose. That's just a whiny crutch.

You're being pedantic. Of course when I say "it loses" I mean the player using it. An inanimate book cannot play games.

I said that IG armies are considered underpowered because they lose more than they win. I'm merely speaking as a matter of community perception based on performance statistics.

I said that some players do better than others. I never said I think its the codex's fault.

An opinion I share with others is that this codex is predisposed to a style of game play that is not as successful because what it does best against is not that common in this edition. Implicitly this means if some people are doing well, it is likely that they are breaking from convention to buck the trend or are really lucky. This predisposition is once again not a judgement against the book in so much as an analysis of the most common meta.

What you seem to be saying is that the players suck not the book. That's fair enough but not really the question the OP posted. "Why do some people think that the AM codex is underpowered?" That is a question of our perception on the communities perception and not on IF it actually is or isn't underpowered. You're entitled to your opinion but by virtue of your stance that the codex isn't underpowered you place yourself outside that level of empathetic thought needed to discuss the actual topic.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


No use to try and change his mind there. He calls almost everything forgeworld OP to even though there were enough valid arguments against that..

You can't do jack gak against top tier codexes unless it's stupid "Hammer your face on a brick wall" luck.

Oh believe me, I don't intend to, nor do I think I can, change his mind. I'm just trying to get him to back up the claim he made a page or so ago about being all boss and winning two tournaments with a Chaos Space Marine list, and then Sisters of Battle the next day.

I'd *LOVE* to know some info on this so I can see what kind of metrics we're working with here.

List size, number of players participating, detailed lists that were used by our lovable little Jancoran here, what lists he fought (in detail, as in army composition), what house rules were in place if any, the Missions played and the objectives for those missions (Were they custom?), the location of the tournament, the name of the location, the store's or location owner's name, and the Tournament Organizer's name if it's not the same person as the owner.

It's not hard to offer evidence to back up a claim. I did it for two separate claims last page rather easily in less than 5 minutes. The fact that good ole Jancoran refuses to do so says a lot about him and his claims though, I reckon.

Thoughts to ponder.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Jancoran wrote:

YesI am prety familiar with the term. But Im not the one questioning the right to have an opinion.

Eh?

What on earth are you talking about?

 Jancoran wrote:
But I have delivered, offering you an easy way to contact people who would know.

I think I missed that. What's this easy way to contact people you offered?

Vipoid,

Jancoran edited a post of his on the previous page (#8) to include some information to back up the veracity of his claims. It was laughably and woefully lacking in actual information needed to definitively prove any of his assertions or speak to anyone folks could prove were not in fact Jancoran himself posing as this 'other person'.

Rather comical, really.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Vipoid,

Jancoran edited a post of his on the previous page (#8) to include some information to back up the veracity of his claims. It was laughably and woefully lacking in actual information needed to definitively prove any of his assertions or speak to anyone folks could prove were not in fact Jancoran himself posing as this 'other person'.

Rather comical, really.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Ah, I'd missed that. Thanks.

You're quite welcome. Hopefully he will finally own up to the claims he's made or continue to (very poorly) attempt to deflect the conversation in even more entertaining nonsensical directions.

I'm waiting with baited breath here. Too bad he's logged off.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm wondering why don't you just ignore him? He's obviously unable to keep the debate on a level, so why bother?

 Hawky wrote:
I'm wondering why don't you just ignore him? He's obviously unable to keep the debate on a level, so why bother?

Because if nobody calls him on his stupid and/or ignorant behavior, then he'll never stop being stupid/ignorant.

At the very least I can be thankful I'm not him, nor suffering from whatever cognitive disorder he seems to be suffering from.

C'est la vie.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

One change I really wish GW would make for Guard to help 'modernise' them so to speak, would be to either allow Junior/Senior Officers the ability to leave/join units like every other normal IC, OR, at the very least, allow a Platoon's Junior Officer + 4 chumpies to join-up with the rest of the blob.

It's just brutal for Guard players trying to cope with how easy it is for pretty much everyone nowadays to remove 5 single wound/T3/5+ save models.