I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?
Charistoph wrote: What is the rule for other units in range? Is a unit that has no model capable of Shooting, really Shooting?
There is nothing in the sequence of shooting that requires your target to be in range. Since all 3 units are now considered one unit for the purposes of shooting, it does not matter if some of the models are out of range. It would be the same as if I had a bolter in a squad that all have missile launchers. The unit can still fire at 30", just not that one model with a belter
The real issue is whether a unit that is out of range can consider itself to have any firepower to combine for the +1 BS, as the combination of firepower is what grants the BS increase.
Lets use this as an example, You combine A storm surge, pathfinders and fire warriors. There is 1 model in range for a pulse rifle shot however you fire the storm surge first to maximize blast effectiveness. Now the firewarriors are not longer in range. But everyone still benefits form the +1 BS. Since you declare this before firing any shots.
Nilok wrote: If the unit and is out of range and cannot shoot, has it shot?
Yes. Normally this can't happen because you can measure range at any time and you'd have to be pretty stupid to fail to check if you had a shot, but there's nothing stopping you from declaring a target that is too far away for any of your unit's weapons to fire. You'll just resolve no successful shots against it and move on to the next unit.
Of course you can target an out of range unit at a target of the shooting phase.
Seriously, find me a single line in the rules that restricts that. I will mail you a complete squad of marines if you can. No gak, you argue this properly and a box is in the mail for you.
I am so beyond reading people try to pick this rule apart with complete bull---- questions that only prove they don't properly re-read the core rules from one edition to the next. More than happy to throw some prize support on the line at this point.
Also, note that this is exactly how it worked before 6th edition made it legal to measure distances at any time. If you picked a target in 5th edition and discovered that all of your guns were out of range you lost the ability to shoot with that unit, you didn't get to pick another target instead. 6th and 7th never took away the ability to fail to be in range and waste a unit's shooting, they just added the ability to make sure that you never declare an out-of-range target unless you really want to.
Charistoph wrote: What is the rule for other units in range? Is a unit that has no model capable of Shooting, really Shooting?
There is nothing in the sequence of shooting that requires your target to be in range. Since all 3 units are now considered one unit for the purposes of shooting, it does not matter if some of the models are out of range. It would be the same as if I had a bolter in a squad that all have missile launchers. The unit can still fire at 30", just not that one model with a belter
What does the Coordinated Firepower state in regards to units joining in? That is what I meant, not necessarily the rulebook rules. I do not have the Detachment's rules to follow up with, and I am working on memory from leaked footage.
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
It's not about simply targeting the enemy unit - that is what the initial unit does and allows the player to trigger Coordinated Firepower - but rather at least two further units combining their firepower is the condition for gaining the increased Ballistic Skill.
So is a unit that is out of range considered as combining their firepower when they are unable to actually do anything beyond choosing a target, selecting a weapon and checking range to find they're not within?
Mr. Shine wrote: So is a unit that is out of range considered as combining their firepower when they are unable to actually do anything beyond choosing a target, selecting a weapon and checking range to find they're not within?
Yes. The only restriction is that they have to have the same target. Once they join the combined unit failing to be within range of any of their weapons is no different than any other case of some models in a unit being out of range.
Once they join the combined unit failing to be within range of any of their weapons is no different than any other case of some models in a unit being out of range.
It seems to me we must still consider the separate units making up the Coordinated Firepower "unit" to determine whether we have at least three separate units combining their firepower. What's less clear I think is what "combining firepower" is or should be defined as. The fact they could be considered out of range models of the unit is irrelevant if we still don't know whether they can be considered as combining firepower.
Given they're not able to contribute any firepower if not in range, it seems they're unable to combine something that is non-existent.
Yes. It's called reading the rules. You are required to select the target to count for CF. You are not required to successfully roll dice against that target.
It seems to me we must still consider the separate units making up the Coordinated Firepower "unit" to determine whether we have at least three separate units combining their firepower.
Yes, and you do that. Three units must declare the same target. There is no requirement that any particular models within those units fire weapons at the declared target.
What's less clear I think is what "combining firepower" is or should be defined as.
It's defined perfectly clearly: the units (note: UNITS, not individual models within the unit) must shoot at the same target, and all participating units resolve their shots as a single unit. You're just trying to over-complicate this by looking for a restriction that isn't there.
No. One unit selecting a target is what allows you to enact Coordinated Firepower:
"Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."
The requirement to actually gain the +1 Ballistic Skill is that three units combine their firepower:
"When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
The restriction on shooting the same target has nothing to do with the +1 to Ballistic Skill.
You've still not shown proof that choosing a target, selecting a weapon, checking line of sight and being determined as out of range qualifies as actually contributing any firepower to combine.
EDIT:
From the Shooting phase section it's clear that models not in range cannot fire:
"Which Models Can Fire?
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."
If you're not firing, you're not providing any firepower to combine.
Mr. Shine wrote: You've still not shown proof that choosing a target, selecting a weapon, checking line of sight and being determined as out of range qualifies as actually contributing any firepower to combine.
Ok, let's be reasonable about this. Which is more likely:
"Combine their firepower" means "participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack", as described in the previous sentence.
or
"Combine their firepower" means some new concept of actually rolling dice, which is never stated (or even implied) and has no rule to reference.
I think the answer here is obvious.
From the Shooting phase section it's clear that models not in range cannot fire:
Please do not confuse MODELS and UNITS. UNITS can declare targets that no MODELS within the unit are able to fire at. Coordinated Firepower checks to see if UNITS are participating, it says nothing about what the MODELS within those UNITS are required to do.
All you need is LOS and the ability to shoot. this two things are required to declare a unit shooting at a target. Range is checked later in a ongoing shooting attack.
Does any model have to fire a single shot that the unit is counted as " has fired" during that turn?
no it doesn't. once you declared a target in line of sight to your unit that unit counts as " has shot" for that turn.
Reasonable? You really want to claim that a unit is able to contribute to a larger group's accuracy if it's completely out of range of the target?
"Combine their firepower" means "participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack", as described in the previous sentence.
or
"Combine their firepower" means some new concept of actually rolling dice, which is never stated (or even implied) and has no rule to reference.
I think the answer here is obvious.
Personally, I prefer in the absence of an explicit rules definition to go by common English definition.
According to dictionary.com, 'combine' means, "to bring into or join in a close union or whole; unite" while 'firepower' means, "the capability of a military force, unit, or weapons system as measured by the amount of gunfire, number of missiles, etc., deliverable to a target".
If you're not even shooting because you're out of range, you're simply not providing any firepower. How about we actually try to be reasonable with a little roleplay skit, eh?
"All units, target the walker! With our coordinated firepower there's a greater chance overall that we'll hit with something!"
"Um, I'm out of range. I don't think I can contribute to that. I'm definitely not adding to our overall ability to hit with something, because nothing of mine can possibly hit."
"Ah. Um, well, okay, all other units, then!"
Please do not confuse MODELS and UNITS. UNITS can declare targets that no MODELS within the unit are able to fire at. Coordinated Firepower checks to see if UNITS are participating, it says nothing about what the MODELS within those UNITS are required to do.
And what are units made up of? Oh, right. Yeah. Models. And you're still confusing the requirement to target the same unit with the condition for granting the Ballistic Skill bonus. They're separate things.
_ghost_ wrote: Does any model have to fire a single shot that the unit is counted as " has fired" during that turn?
no it doesn't. once you declared a target in line of sight to your unit that unit counts as " has shot" for that turn.
This is interesting, because if we're considering units in a Coordinated Firepower "unit" to be a bit like models in an ordinary firing unit that are out of range, well, in those circumstances the individual models do not count as having fired.
If we're thinking of out of range units as being like out of range models (which we know don't count as having fired) then we have the out of range units counting as not having fired - thus again not having any firepower to contribute to combine for Coordinated Firepower.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
Mr. Shine wrote: Reasonable? You really want to claim that a unit is able to contribute to a larger group's accuracy if it's completely out of range of the target?
Yes, because that's what the rules say. The most likely interpretation of what "combines their firepower" means is "participates in the CF attack" because the sentence immediately follows the one describing how units participate in CF. What it says is "here is how to do X, if 3+ units do it then also do Y". It's not my fault that GW allows units to choose a target for shooting even if none of their individual weapons are within range to fire.
Personally, I prefer in the absence of an explicit rules definition to go by common English definition.
According to dictionary.com, 'combine' means, "to bring into or join in a close union or whole; unite" while 'firepower' means, "the capability of a military force, unit, or weapons system as measured by the amount of gunfire, number of missiles, etc., deliverable to a target".
If you're not even shooting because you're out of range, you're simply not providing any firepower. How about we actually try to be reasonable with a little roleplay skit, eh?
Fluff =/= rules.
And what are units made up of? Oh, right. Yeah. Models.
What's your point? A unit is not merely the sum of its component models, it is its own distinct entity. The CF rules all refer to UNITS, not models. UNITS are counted to see who is participating, UNITS get the requirement to fire at the same target, etc. The fact that some or all models within a unit do not fire does not change the fact that the UNIT has shot at a given target.
And you're still confusing the requirement to target the same unit with the condition for granting the Ballistic Skill bonus. They're separate things.
I am doing no such thing. 3+ UNITS choose the same target, and all three get the BS bonus. Whether or not any MODELS within those units fire at the declared target (whether because of split fire, being out of range, or simply deciding not to shoot) is irrelevant because the UNIT has met the requirements.
This is interesting, because if we're considering units in a Coordinated Firepower "unit" to be a bit like models in an ordinary firing unit that are out of range, well, in those circumstances the individual models do not count as having fired.
If we're thinking of out of range units as being like out of range models (which we know don't count as having fired) then we have the out of range units counting as not having fired - thus again not having any firepower to contribute to combine for Coordinated Firepower.
How about instead of making analogies between units and models we just read what the printed rules say?
FlingitNow wrote: If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
Because the UNIT is shooting at the target. UNITS can shoot at a target even if no MODELS within the unit shoot at it. For example, if you declare a unit as a target and find that all of your weapons are out of range you are considered to have shot that turn and can not decide to run or move flat out instead.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Peregrine wrote: Yes, because that's what the rules say. The most likely interpretation of what "combines their firepower" means is "participates in the CF attack" because the sentence immediately follows the one describing how units participate in CF. What it says is "here is how to do X, if 3+ units do it then also do Y". It's not my fault that GW allows units to choose a target for shooting even if none of their individual weapons are within range to fire.
It's not what the rules say. The rules say "combine firepower" - they do not say "choose target, regardless of whether in range". Combining firepower is not defined as choosing a target. You're making an assumption based on your own desires rather than common sense - you cannot combine firepower that doesn't exist.
Fluff =/= rules.
You're the one who wanted to be reasonable rather than follow what the rules actually explicitly say.
I am doing no such thing. 3+ UNITS choose the same target, and all three get the BS bonus. Whether or not any MODELS within those units fire at the declared target (whether because of split fire, being out of range, or simply deciding not to shoot) is irrelevant because the UNIT has met the requirements.
You absolutely are. The rules tell us when a unit selects a target, other units that have yet to fire may combine their firepower. If you select two units to do this you gain no benefit but are still following the rules for Coordinated Firepower. The fact you can follow the Coordinated Firepower rules with two units or three plus units proves there is a distinction between simply selecting an enemy unit as target for those units and what actually qualifies the units for receiving the +1 Ballistic Skill.
How about instead of making analogies between units and models we just read what the printed rules say?
Okay. The rules say you must combine the firepower of three units to gain +1 Ballistic Skill. Oh, the models in that unit are out of range and so cannot fire. That means no firepower from that unit, so guess we'll need to find another unit who can actually contribute some firepower.
"All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
Can a model in a Coordinated Firepower unit that is out of range fire at the same target as other models in the unit? No. Can it fire at all in that phase? No.
If all models in a unit cannot fire at all, that unit has no firepower to combine.
_ghost_ wrote: Mr. Shine at wich exact moment does a unit count as firing?
The moment it starts a shooting attack?
the monent models rresolve shoots?
Pls back up your answer with the BRB.
No, that's not how this works. You provide rules to support your argument first. You don't ask me to provide them for you.
My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point
and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.
CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.
now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.
The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.
So what is required to start a shooting attack?
the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
_ghost_ wrote: My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point
and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.
CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.
now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.
The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.
So what is required to start a shooting attack?
the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?
You're claiming i have to provide proof of when a unit counts as shooting, but Coordinated Firepower does not require the unit to count as shooting to grant +1 Ballistic Skill - they require three units to combine their firepower.
So the burden is on you to provide rules top support why your point is relevant. I'm not going to provide rules support for your as-yet irrelevant point. Sorry.
_ghost_ wrote: My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point
and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.
CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.
now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.
The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.
So what is required to start a shooting attack?
the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?
Units only ever get to make 1 shooting attack, however that doesn't mean the unit shoots only once. If you're not going through any of the steps 3-6 how are you shooting?
You're claiming i have to provide proof of when a unit counts as shooting, but Coordinated Firepower does not require the unit to count as shooting to grant +1 Ballistic Skill - they require three units to combine their firepower.
So the burden is on you to provide rules top support why your point is relevant. I'm not going to provide rules support for your as-yet irrelevant point. Sorry.
So how in game terms can units add firepower?
They have to make a shooting attack.
What is required for a unit to do that?
Ranged weapons, LOS, and the fact that unit han't already shot during that phase.
What you need for the BF+1 of CF?
3 or more units participating in that shooting attack
So what exactly does a unit out of range prevent from participating in CF? Its obvious that suhc a unit could start a shooting attack. right?
Regarding "combine Firepower" ... CF itself tells you how this is done. a unit out of range still fullfills everything you have to do.
"These units must
shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single
unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
"They fire as one unit" seems pretty clear to me - - not everyone in a unit needs be able to fire.
Even if, say, a unit of Firewarriors is out of range for CF they participate by cheering, dancing or whatever Tau find inspiring. Or maybe they just add their sensor data to the pool available for those trying to get a firing solution?
"These units must
shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single
unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
Nope it doesn't say shooting attack, it says shoot, if you've firedno shots how can you claim you've shot?
Mr. Shine,
if you want to use your rule, that is fine. Just make sure that when you use your units the longest range of your guns is limited to the shortest range available to your unit, and any model without LoS to the target prevents the entire unit from shooting.
On pg.31 of the rulebook there is a picture of orks and marines during shooting. the top ork has no LoS to the unit and does not shoot, but it is still part of the unit. Now replace the individual models with units (like epic) and you have an idea of what is done with CFP. Units that have no range or LoS can still contribute to CFP, just like that ork behind the building.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Mr. Shine wrote:"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
Thank you for the quote, Mr. Shine.
FlingitNow wrote:Units only ever get to make 1 shooting attack, however that doesn't mean the unit shoots only once. If you're not going through any of the steps 3-6 how are you shooting?
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
_ghost_ wrote:Oh realy?
Thats the thing you make up.
"These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
Actually it does. If targetting was the only requirement, then you would be correct. However, if no models in a unit shoots, the unit does not actually shoot as no Attack is generated. And you quoted the part where the units must shoot the target.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Targetting is done by the unit, models do the shooting on behalf of the unit. A model cannot shoot if it is out of range. If all models are out of range, no shots are fired. If no shots are fired, the unit is not actually shooting.
This makes for an interesting interaction with the Skyhammer Devastator Squad...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
Shooting sequence:
Second step is declaring target.
Nowhere in declaring a target does it say you unit has to be in range; only has to be in LoS
nosferatu1001 wrote: Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
Shooting sequence:
Second step is declaring target.
Nowhere in declaring a target does it say you unit has to be in range; only has to be in LoS
Yes I agree you have targeted the unit. Have you shot the unit?
I just want to point out that if the rules do indeed cause the 3 units to momentarily become a single unit, then there's no conflict here. This new single unit shoots at the target, and models in the unit not in range do not fire, but are still part of this unit, and so still add +1 to the BS.
Now, if you say that the units remain separate and distinct during Coordinated Fire (as I believe they do), then this issue does indeed need to be resolved. That said, the steps involved in the shooting phase doesn't actually require any weapons to be fired to fulfill every requirement of the shooting process. You select the unit to shoot with, select a target, choose a weapon to fire with, then start measuring for which models that have yet to shoot are within range. The game does not look ahead to see if a model is about to shoot. Once you're done selecting weapons and repeating the process, the unit can no longer be selected to shoot again (unless something special allows it) during the same phase. No where in that does the unit actually have to have successfully shot a single weapon.
In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Now, with all of that out of the way, let me clarify that I'm sure this is not the intention of the rules. It just makes intrinsic sense that the unit has to be able to shoot to "add their fire", and I would suggest to the OP not to try this against people in their area until a group consensus is achieved.
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
FlingitNow wrote: Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
And again no idea how you jumped to this conclusion. But consider this, three units from different directions shoot with similar weapons. Which models do you remove when they die?
Naw wrote: As that is supported by the rule that says the exact opposite, the rest of your message doesn't make sense.
Not to get off-topic, but if that is the case, and you fire with a Hammerhead at full Hull Points and two units of 1 Fire Warrior each, and you shoot at the Robot Maniple of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they pass some saves on 6's and so reflect the shot back at you, how do you know whether to resolve the shot against the Fire Warriors or the Hammerhead? It reflects back on the shooting unit, which in the "becomes 1 single unit" interpretation is a unit of 2 Fire Warriors and a Hammerhead with 3HP. The rules do not cover this situation and it would be impossible to resolve. If, however, each of the units remains separate and distinct while firing together, then there is no problem, as you know exactly which unit shot.
This is why I listed both scenarios; each scenario has issues, because it's a shoddily written rule.
FlingitNow wrote: Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
FlingitNow wrote: Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
Because until then they haven't "shot" by what you just said. The game does not check the future. Considering this; 3 units of 1 model each are in range. They coordinate their shooting, but one model is throwing an offensive grenade as the first weapon being shot. Because of bad luck, the thrower gets it in such a way that it would kill one of the other models that have yet to shoot. Now there's only 1 model left to shoot. Either you have +1BS for the grenade being thrown because 3 units "could" shoot but haven't yet, or you don't get the +1BS for the grenade as 3 units have not yet shot. Either a unit is selected to shoot and select targets independently of whether or not any of those shots can reach or do anything, or you have to wait for shooting of 2 other units to be finished before the 3rd gets the bonus.
FlingitNow wrote: Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
Because until then they haven't "shot" by what you just said. The game does not check the future. Considering this; 3 units of 1 model each are in range. They coordinate their shooting, but one model is throwing an offensive grenade as the first weapon being shot. Because of bad luck, the thrower gets it in such a way that it would kill one of the other models that have yet to shoot. Now there's only 1 model left to shoot. Either you have +1BS for the grenade being thrown because 3 units "could" shoot but haven't yet, or you don't get the +1BS for the grenade as 3 units have not yet shot. Either a unit is selected to shoot and select targets independently of whether or not any of those shots can reach or do anything, or you have to wait for shooting of 2 other units to be finished before the 3rd gets the bonus.
It doesn't require you to have shot only that you do shoot. If one of 3 units that started the CF can't shoot when you get to their weapon(s) then you have broken the rule. The rules do not cover what happens when you break them.
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total?
And then there's the Wound Pool:
The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).
If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.
Unless you're saying that Pulse Carbines have to delay their Wound Pool until Pulse Rifles fire...
_ghost_ wrote: So how in game terms can units add firepower?
They have to make a shooting attack.
Yes, they have to have actually contributed some actual firepower, i.e. actually shot.
What is required for a unit to do that?
Ranged weapons, LOS, and the fact that unit han't already shot during that phase.
Do you have rules support for that? Those things are certainly required to select a target, check line of sight and range, but does that qualify as making a shooting attack? You have asked me to provide rules for when a unit counts as shooting, but you have not done that yourself. You've made that claim but have not provided rules support to show that counts as actually making the shooting attack.
So what exactly does a unit out of range prevent from participating in CF? Its obvious that suhc a unit could start a shooting attack. right?
When the rules get to the point where they say out of range models in a unit's shooting may not shoot in that phase, it's plain those units are not shooting. At all. They're not contributing any firepower.
Given that Coordinated Firepower requires us to check the number of units combining their firepower within the Coordinated Firepower super-unit, if an entire unit is out of range as models in that super-unit then the unit they make up is not combining their firepower.
_ghost_ wrote:because ist absolutely irrelevant if a unit actualy made a shot or not.
Game mechanic wise that unit counts as " has shot"
You haven't provided evidence of this. The unit has targeted, checked line of sight and range. The models in that unit are then told they are not allowed to shoot that phase, because they are out of range:
"Which Models Can Fire?
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
Units A, B and C are targeting the same enemy unit using Coordinated Firepower, to become Coordinated Firepower Unit 1.
Units A and B are in range. Unit C is not in range. Coordinated Firepower Unit 1 has models A and B in range, but not model C. Model C cannot shoot at all this phase.
Do we get +1 BS? To get +1 BS at least three units must be combining their firepower. Unit C has no firepower to combine, because it is out of range.
A unit still shots at a target. even if there is no single shot. that how the game works.
You have not proven this yet. You've asked me to do it for you, and I have politely declined because it is your argument, not mine. Burden is on you to prove your argument.
carldooley wrote:Mr. Shine,
if you want to use your rule, that is fine. Just make sure that when you use your units the longest range of your guns is limited to the shortest range available to your unit, and any model without LoS to the target prevents the entire unit from shooting.
This is incorrect, because while they are considered one unit for the purpose of resolving their shooting attack, we must still consider whether as separate units they are combining firepower. If a unit within the Coordinated Firepower unit is not in range, it has no firepower to combine. Additionally I have never claimed the other units may not shoot. Please don't make a strawman of my argument by attacking something I have not said as if it were what I said.
Yarium wrote:I just want to point out that if the rules do indeed cause the 3 units to momentarily become a single unit, then there's no conflict here. This new single unit shoots at the target, and models in the unit not in range do not fire, but are still part of this unit, and so still add +1 to the BS.
If you ONLY consider them as one unit it becomes impossible to determine how many units are combining their firepower. Again, they may act as one unit to resolve their shooting, but for deciding whether they gain +1 BS we must still consider how many units within that Coordinated Firepower unit are combining their firepower. If a unit has no firepower then it has nothing to combine.
Now, if you say that the units remain separate and distinct during Coordinated Fire (as I believe they do), then this issue does indeed need to be resolved. That said, the steps involved in the shooting phase doesn't actually require any weapons to be fired to fulfill every requirement of the shooting process. You select the unit to shoot with, select a target, choose a weapon to fire with, then start measuring for which models that have yet to shoot are within range. The game does not look ahead to see if a model is about to shoot. Once you're done selecting weapons and repeating the process, the unit can no longer be selected to shoot again (unless something special allows it) during the same phase. No where in that does the unit actually have to have successfully shot a single weapon.
Yes, but if no models in that unit can shoot (because they are considered out of range models in the Coordinated Firepower unit, and thus disallowed from shooting at all in that phase) then that unit is not combining its firepower, ergo no +1 BS.
In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Selecting a target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range are not the requirement, though. Combining firepower is.
Selecting a target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range are not the requirement, though. Combining firepower is.
And "combining firepower" is defined in the previous sentence: participating in the CF attack. Which you do by declaring the unit to be participating and committing to obey the restrictions of CF. Your fluff-based definition of "must fire a weapon at the target" is irrelevant and has no rules evidence to support it.
Peregrine wrote: And "combining firepower" is defined in the previous sentence: participating in the CF attack.
Um, no:
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."
Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.
Which you do by declaring the unit to be participating and committing to obey the restrictions of CF. Your fluff-based definition of "must fire a weapon at the target" is irrelevant and has no rules evidence to support it.
You've yet to provide any rules support to show that declaring the same target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range suffices as participating in the attack, let alone adding their firepower as the rules require.
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:
"Which Models Can Fire?
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."
Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.
Sigh. How about quoting the entire rule?
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.
The only ambiguity here is that you insist on taking sentences out of context and ignoring how they follow from previous sentences. When you consider the entire rule in its proper context the meaning of "combine their firepower" is obvious.
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:
Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?
You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.
I believe I was the first to do so in this thread, already. I quoted the section relevant to what I believed you were referring to.
The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
Wrong. The second sentence provides a restriction included in but not definitive of using Coordinated Firepower. Look at the following comparison:
"Any boys may play rugby with girls. Those boys must wear a girl's uniform."
Wearing a girl's rugby uniform does not define how to play rugby with girls.
Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.
Ordinarily we wouldn't concern ourselves at the model level, sure, but Coordinated Firepower makes them one unit, made up of models from several sub-units. As a result you end up with an entire sub-unit of models who we are told are not allowed to fire at all this phase, but yet to gain +1 Ballistic Skill we must still refer to whether there are three units who are adding their firepower. So by attempting to include them in the Coordinated Firepower rule you have discounted them from being able to qualify as adding their firepower.
I've provided rules for this. You have provided a statement claiming it's irrelevant, but no actual rules quote.
You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.
How do you know if there are at least three units combining their firepower (one of which we know is not adding their firepower) if you're only considering them one unit as Coordinating Firepower says? You must simultaneously consider them one unit for resolving the attack whilst considering the number of individual units within the Coordinated Firepower unit that are adding their firepower.
On the one hand you're agreeing the models are not adding (or at least combining) their firepower, but claiming that somehow the unit is doing so. How do you propose the unit can be adding non-existent firepower because its models are unable to do so themselves? After all, units are made up of models:
"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right."
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."
Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.
Sigh. How about quoting the entire rule?
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
Sure.
Peregrine wrote: The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
Let's see: "Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."
Okay, no argument there so far.
Peregrine wrote: The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
Peregrine wrote: The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.
Let's see: "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
So, when they combine firepower, which is the units shooting the same target, they add 1 to their Ballistic Skill, so only units who are in range of this target can participate and so only the units are in range will gain the BS bonus.
Peregrine wrote: The only ambiguity here is that you insist on taking sentences out of context and ignoring how they follow from previous sentences. When you consider the entire rule in its proper context the meaning of "combine their firepower" is obvious.
Interesting that when you break it down as you suggest, it actually runs according to what Mr. Shine is suggesting and seems to counter your intention, if you are actually arguing against him.
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:
Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.
Units target, models shoot as part of the unit's Attack. But it still requires the "unit shooting" the target in order to benefit. Targetting is not mentioned. A unit can TARGET something out of range, but it cannot SHOOT something out of range. A notable difference that I pointed out earlier.
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?
You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.
Incorrect. At least according to what has been presented so far. I have not seen any rule that states when a unit targets something, it is considered shooting it, yet.
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.
carldooley wrote: This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.
Do you have a reference to support that last bit?
And something to prove that counting as having fired while yet being expressly forbidden from shooting at all that phase also counts as "adding their firepower"?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.
Ummm.... First off, what shots? That's the POINT!
Second of all, where does targeting count as firing?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.
Ummm.... First off, what shots? That's the POINT!
Second of all, where does targeting count as firing?
If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.
notredameguy10 wrote: If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.
But if you need at least three members in the unit to add their firepower to the unit's shooting for the unit to gain +1 Ballistic Skill, do models that are out of range and therefore not allowed to shoot at all that phase count as adding their firepower to the attack?
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total?
And then there's the Wound Pool:
The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).
If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.
Unless you're saying that Pulse Carbines have to delay their Wound Pool until Pulse Rifles fire...
I don't follow your logic. Why would Pulse Carbines and Rifles have to share a wound pool?
twinner wrote: I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?
Yes of course. As long as a model in a unit has LOS to at least one enemy model in the target unit, the unit can fire.
Thus at the minimum a unit needs LOS to count as a contributing unit in Coordinated Firepower.
If a model in a unit cannot fire for some reason (no LOS, out of range, choose not to fire, no weapon etc) the unit still counts as having being nominated for a shooting attack.
twinner wrote: I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?
Yes of course. As long as a model in a unit has LOS to at least one enemy model in the target unit, the unit can fire.
Thus at the minimum a unit needs LOS to count as a contributing unit in Coordinated Firepower.
If a model in a unit cannot fire for some reason (no LOS, out of range, choose not to fire, no weapon etc) the unit still counts as having being nominated for a shooting attack.
Unfortunately being nominated for a shooting attack is not enough to join CF you must actually shoot at the target unit to qualify.
FlingitNow wrote: It says "must shoot" if you've fire no shots prove you have shot?
It says, the unit must shoot the same target. That rule is a restriction so that one cannot claim use of the unit for e.g. another CF right after. If you participate with a unit but do not fire you cannot fire anymore for that phase.
The same rules exists in the BRB but in a much stronger version clearly stating models. The CF rule is actually a bit more lenient with just stating units.
Which models can fire?
"All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Shine wrote: And a unit that has no models in range has no models that can shoot. If a unit has no models that can shoot that unit cannot shoot.
You can still declare to make a shooting attack, you just can't fire. This is the same concept as in older rules where you could not pre-measure, so you would declare "My unit of x fires at your unit y", then you measured the range and sometimes you where out of range and could not fire. The unit still counted as having shot though. Works the same now but with the added benefit of pre-measuring so normally you would not make a shooting attack without also firing, but it happens.
Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.
If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.
Mr. Shine wrote: Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.
If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.
Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.
X078 wrote: Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.
No. It says "is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn". That means "able to shoot" and "yet to fire" are separate requirements.
If I said to you, "Choose a friend to take you home who is able to drive but has not had too much to drink tonight," it is clear that they must be able to drive in all respects AS WELL AS not being too drunk.
_ghost_ wrote: a unit that shoots = unit making a shooting attack.
Got a quote for that? Also see Mr Shines response a unit with no models that can shoot can not shoot...
So you have 2 things to prove. First that making a shooting attack is the same as a unit shooting. Second that a unit that has no models able to fire can make a shooting attack.
X078 wrote: Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.
No. It says "is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn". That means "able to shoot" and "yet to fire" are separate requirements.
Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.
notredameguy10 wrote: If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.
But if you need at least three members in the unit to add their firepower to the unit's shooting for the unit to gain +1 Ballistic Skill, do models that are out of range and therefore not allowed to shoot at all that phase count as adding their firepower to the attack?
The requirement was that 3 units are involved. As has been said, they become one large unit and some of the weapons can be out of range. This doesn't mean that they didn't add to the firepower. Think of this as a single unit of 9 crisis suits, with 3 missile pods, 3 plasmas and 3 flamers. They unit counts as having shot even if all models could not fire.
X078 wrote: Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.
Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.
"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."
So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.
So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?
If you disagree, PLEASE support your argument with rules, not just your opinion.
If I said to you, "Choose a friend to take you home who is able to drive but has not had too much to drink tonight," it is clear that they must be able to drive in all respects AS WELL AS not being too drunk.
I would say that the friend is able to drive although he may be drunk.
Another situation to ponder:
"lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?"
Well wouldn't the Pathfinders try to contribute by coordinating their optical telemetry, bearings, visual information etc or something like that when they know their weapons are out of range.
Naw wrote: The requirement was that 3 units are involved.
Wrong. The requirement is that three units combine their firepower.
As has been said, they become one large unit and some of the weapons can be out of range. This doesn't mean that they didn't add to the firepower. Think of this as a single unit of 9 crisis suits, with 3 missile pods, 3 plasmas and 3 flamers. They unit counts as having shot even if all models could not fire.
But if it's one large unit how do you know if at least three units have combined or added their firepower to the attack? You can't say it's one large unit so the smaller unit doesn't need to be able to shoot, but claim you still have at least three small units.
And once again, a unit cannot be chosen to shoot if it is not able to shoot, for example if it is out of line of sight and/or range.
X078 wrote: Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.
Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.
"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."
So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.
So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?
If you disagree, PLEASE support your argument with rules, not just your opinion.
So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.
By RAW only the model by weapon range is affected by this, common sense is all assumption.
And sure, support from the BRB:
"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."
X078 wrote: I would say that the friend is able to drive although he may be drunk.
Not if your friend is too drunk to stand up and is on the opposite side of the house from the car.
Well wouldn't the Pathfinders try to contribute by coordinating their optical telemetry, bearings, visual information etc or something like that when they know their weapons are out of range.
Where are those rules?
This is a rules, not fluff, discussion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
X078 wrote: By RAW only weapons on the model is affected by this, common sense is all assumption.
And sure, support from the BRB:
"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."
Go back a page or two and read the shooting sequence quote I provided earlier, which requires you select a unit that is able to shoot:
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
X078 wrote: Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.
Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.
"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."
That doesn't matter because unit A targets enemy unit, at this moment unit B and unit C join in for CF attack. They become a single unit with members from units A, B and C. Only then we choose weapons AND range, as you point out. Why, as you quote the rules, do you fail to follow them?
So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.
But obviously the one unit above is shooting, as long as even one of the weapons is in range. Do you agree?
So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?
Because CF triggers after shooting step 2 and when other units join, they are no longer individual units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Look, Mr. Shine, I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not supported by the rules.
For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.
As you can see from above, we have satisfied the rules for Coordinated Firepower, we also trigger the rule to add +1BS. It affects everyone who is able to shoot.
Think of this as having a single unit of 9 crisis suits, 3 with pods, 3 with plasma and 3 with flamer. Are you now trying to say that I'm not allowed to shoot because not everyone may have the range or that the unit doesn't count as having shot? That doesn't make sense.
Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)
Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.
Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?
carldooley wrote: Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)
He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.
Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.
This isn't Infinity where you have an Order Pool and models add to it, regardless of where they are on the board.
Additionally? Implying that someone is "trolling" because they disagree with you is a bit asinine.
Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.
That's a bad comparison, because Combined Squads have to maintain coherency and are declared before Warlord Traits. Once you make a Blob Squad, you cannot unmake it. That's it for the entirety of the game.
Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?
Cadians got this in their Emperor's Shield Company formation. They can issue "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" to as many of the 15 mandatory Infantry Squads as they choose to within that Company...
Provided the Company Command Squad is in range, because the special rule does not override the range of Orders.
1. choose a unit with at least one model with a ranged weapon that has not already shot in that turn
2 select a Target. the only requirement here is that it is in LOS of your unit.
3. select weapon. If model is not in range said weapon cant shoot
4. resolve shots of said weapon/s
select another weapon.
So if we have a unit with no weapon in range we still do everything of a shooting attack. ( keep in mind we also could to decide that any model or all of the unit dont shoot at all) The UNIT is still resolving a shooting attack.
CF does stat that we hav the aditional units to shoot at the same target. there is never mentioned that any model of said Unit makes one shoot. the UNIT is still shooting. ( in BRB terms this means it resolving a shooting attack.)
Mr. Shine is still using the wrong part of the rules. he always reffers to single models of a unit. but still. If a unit fires then this is always a shooting attack. At the begining of the page for the shootingphase this is statet.
If you have a unit with no weapon in range, you don't perform a shooting attack.
Read page 30.
CHOOSE A TARGET Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat (pg 47).
Common sense dictates that this is part of Step 2, seeing as how the title of step 2 is "Choose a Target".
Kanluwen - re-read what you just typed. You check the range and line of sight, but of those two only line of sight is a requirement, and is noted as such in the very next paragraph on that same page:
"To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."
Notice how there's no similar heading for range. Range is only checked much later for which models can fire, not whether the unit can fire.
Because common sense dictates that they should not have to say anything to the effect of "You cannot choose to target a unit that is out of range of all weapons inside of a unit" when they state that you can measure range and LOS to multiple targets before declaring the target you're choosing to fire.
This REALLY should not be something that gets argued about, because it does not take a genius to figure out that if you're out of range of all weapons?
You're not performing a shooting attack and thus cannot participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.
Additionally? Reread page 30.
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
Saying that you "must check the range and line of sight" is pretty blatant that yes, you DO check the range when choosing a target.
Kanluwen wrote: Because common sense dictates that they should not have to say anything to the effect of "You cannot choose to target a unit that is out of range of all weapons inside of a unit" when they state that you can measure range and LOS to multiple targets before declaring the target you're choosing to fire.
This REALLY should not be something that gets argued about, because it does not take a genius to figure out that if you're out of range of all weapons?
You're not performing a shooting attack and thus cannot participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.
I know, and I get it. I would suggest to the OP that they do not attempt this, but it does seem fully supported by the rules. You're totally right that our gut instinct is that you actually have to be able to shoot at the target, and that means some bang bangs. I firmly believe that the INTENT of the rules is exactly that too. But that's a discussion about etiquette in games, and doesn't belong in a RAW discussion.
I asked for your support to claim that Range itself is a matter of picking a target. The rules say that you have to check it. thats all. so where is your quote?
_ghost_ wrote: I asked for your support to claim that Range itself is a matter of picking a target. The rules say that you have to check it. thats all. so where is your quote?
And I asked you:
When would you choose to target a unit that is out of range, when you are forced to check range and line of sight before declaring a unit to be your target?
Seriously. Read page bloody thirty. Under "Choosing a Target", it states that you MUST check not just line of sight but range.
The only caveat is that at least one model have LOS to be able to target the unit.
Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?
There is a prime example where this will often be the case. A solo Buffmander model unit, he will often have no weapons and foregoes shooting so that his CF unit can benefit, so yes he will often be in the back field, in cover, if solo.
Another case could be that as mentioned before you might be out of range with some models but can still contribute and aid others by joining in and giving them +1BS.
Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?
There is a prime example where this will often be the case. A solo Buffmander model unit, he will often have no weapons and foregoes shooting so that his CF unit can benefit, so yes he will often be in the back field, in cover, if solo.
Another case could be that as mentioned before you might be out of range with some models but can still contribute and aid others by joining in and giving them +1BS.
Buffmander has to make a shooting attack to join it, so unless he is actually part of a Crisis unit that is part of the CF?
He can't provide his buffs.
Additionally, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between "You might be out of range with some models but can still contribute" and what some of the people in this thread are arguing, which is units entirely out of range that contribute nothing but harsh language grant the +1 BS.
_ghost_ wrote: Alright. so there is no rule that stated choosing a target out of range is eighter forbidden or would breack the rules in any other way.
You must check range and line of sight before declaring a target seems pretty bloody obvious that "No, you cannot choose a target that is out of range".
Again, this is something that shouldn't even be an issue. The fact that people like yourself are making it an issue is downright ridiculous.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_ghost_ wrote: Realy?`As far a i know a model if a unit can decide to no shoot.
"A model in a unit" != "An independent character by themselves".
A Buffmander joining the shooting attack is a unit by itself, not a model in a unit.
Different story if he has drones with him or in a Crisis team as then it becomes part of a unit.
For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.
CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.
carldooley wrote: Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)
He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.
Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.
Do you actually understand that if Tau combines 3 units but only 1 of them actually shoots, he has wasted those two units to get +1BS, which he could easily get from marker lights? He can do it, but does it make sense??
For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.
CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.
I'll give up. That's not what the rules demand and I'm going to play it according to the rules. You can houserule it your way.
carldooley wrote: Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)
He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.
Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.
Do you actually understand that if Tau combines 3 units but only 1 of them actually shoots, he has wasted those two units to get +1BS, which he could easily get from marker lights? He can do it, but does it make sense??
_ghost_ wrote: so were is it stated that out of Range means "choose another target?" show me that part
You have to check range and line of sight.
Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?
So you admit that we are allowed to choose a target that is out of range for all of the weapons?
Yes, a unit may attempt to generate a Shooting Attack at a target out of range and LOS.
However, yet to be proven is Targetting and attempting to generate a Shooting Attack is all that is needed for a unit to count as Shooting. If a unit carries Rapid Fire Weapons and Assault Weapons with them, but cannot Fire the RF Weapons due to Range or LOS, and none of them are Relentless or Slow and Purposeful, would they still be able to Charge?
In your consideration, the answer would be "no" since the unit "shot" Rapid Fire Weapons.
For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.
CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.
I'll give up. That's not what the rules demand and I'm going to play it according to the rules. You can houserule it your way.
Not according to the second sentence. The rule in the second sentence states the unit must shoot the target, not just target it, not just make or attemt a Shooting Attack, actually shoot. And nothing shoots iff it can't "see" it or reach it. Obviously, there are ways around LOS with SMS, Barrage, and Seeker Strike, but that's specific to those cases and not the general consideration.
Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.
Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.
Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.
No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.
Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.
Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.
No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.
So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.
Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)
Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.
Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.
No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.
So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.
Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)
You mus actually shoot each unit at the target or you have broken the CF rule.
Naw wrote: So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.
I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.
It's not really that hard to understand.
In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.
Naw wrote: So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.
I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.
It's not really that hard to understand.
In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.
That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.
That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.
Exactly, and i urge anyone that disagrees to review the Firebase Support Cadre rule, Coordinated Firestorm. While very similar to the Coordinated Firepower rule, the big difference is that it specifically mentions models whilst CF specifically mentions units. This unit / model difference is intentional and important to understand.
Naw wrote: So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.
I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.
It's not really that hard to understand.
In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.
That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Naw wrote: So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.
I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.
It's not really that hard to understand.
In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.
That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"
Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"
Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them
I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.
That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"
Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them
I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.
That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.
So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?
So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.
Slight off topic here - if you need LoS to nominate a target (which is before choosing a weapon), wouldn't that mean you can never shoot at a unit that is out of sight, even with weapons that don't require LoS?
Happyjew wrote: Slight off topic here - if you need LoS to nominate a target (which is before choosing a weapon), wouldn't that mean you can never shoot at a unit that is out of sight, even with weapons that don't require LoS?
Just apply the applicable more advanced rule over the more basic rule.
Spoiler:
Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do
not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if
applicable)
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"
Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them
I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.
That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.
So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?
So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.
notredameguy10 wrote: That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.
No actual quotes or references. Not suprising.
1) It does not actually state that, though.
2) Then when the unit targets something, and carries any Heavy, Salve, Rapid Fire, etc Weapon on its models it cannot Charge because they are considered shot.
3) EVERY instance of actual "shooting" in the rulebook, not just "shooting attack" or "shooting sequence", but "shooting" all by itself, involves weapons rolling To-Hit at some point. You cannot roll To-Hit unless in Range or resolve Line of Sight questions.
X078 wrote:Your example of a drunk friend is not exactly rules now is it? Mine has at least some relevance to the discussion.
Drawing a parallel using the same language with a different scenario is not the same as making up a story to explain something without reference to rules.
And yet a unit being able to shoot or declaring/nominating to shoot is not the same as the models firing. You can also check this in the rulebook.
While true, you yourself already agreed if none of the models in a unit can shoot the unit cannot shoot. I've already provided reference where nominating a unit to shoot requires that unit to be able to shoot.
Naw wrote:That doesn't matter because unit A targets enemy unit, at this moment unit B and unit C join in for CF attack. They become a single unit with members from units A, B and C. Only then we choose weapons AND range, as you point out. Why, as you quote the rules, do you fail to follow them?
So you're nominating units B and C to join the attack on what basis? Are you not using any form of the shooting sequence at all? If this is the case, why are you even bound by line of sight requirements if you simply have permission to add them to the attack without reference or regard to the shooting sequence? And of course even if you are able to, you've not proven that targeting is "adding their firepower to the attack".
Look, Mr. Shine, I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not supported by the rules.
You're the one yet to prove a unit has added their firepower simply by targeting, while I've provided numerous references from the rules to show the unit is not able to shoot at all, so cannot be nominated to do so (whether by itself, or as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack).
For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.
You used the word "nominate". The rules require a unit be able to shoot before you can nominate it to do so. Also, again, it's not simply, "add to the attack" but rather, "add their firepower to the attack" if you wish to gain the +1 Ballistic Skill. What firepower is a unit that cannot shoot adding to the attack?
As you can see from above, we have satisfied the rules for Coordinated Firepower, we also trigger the rule to add +1BS. It affects everyone who is able to shoot.
You have Coordinated Firepower, sure, but you've not satisfied the condition for gaining +1 Ballistic Skill.
Think of this as having a single unit of 9 crisis suits, 3 with pods, 3 with plasma and 3 with flamer. Are you now trying to say that I'm not allowed to shoot because not everyone may have the range or that the unit doesn't count as having shot? That doesn't make sense.
What? This isn't about not being allowed to shoot. This is about the unit not gaining +1 Ballistic Skill. Stop claiming and then attacking something my argument is not.
carldooley wrote:Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)
What's asinine is calling someone asinine (which means stupid) over the internet because you disagree with their argument. What's a fallacy is claiming they're arguing something they are not, and then attacking that argument. I have never once said the Coordinated Firepower unit may not shoot.
Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.
Again, you've completely missed what I'm saying. Whooooosh; the sound of my argument going completely and utterly over your head. I've never once said the Coordinated Firepower unit may not fire; I've said they don't receive the +1 Ballistic Skill unless three or more units have actually added their firepower to the attack, as the rules say.
Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?
This has nothing to do with faction, and you're talking about rules which aren't even written. I suggest you step out of the discussion if you're not able to understand the arguments being discussed or the way in which those arguments are made.
_ghost_ wrote:So if we look at the shooting phase.
1. choose a unit with at least one model with a ranged weapon that has not already shot in that turn
This is wrong. Read step 1 of The Shooting Sequence. I'll provide it for you:
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
The unit must be able to shoot, as well as not having already shot that turn. And we know models that are not in range are not able to shoot. If all models in a unit are not in range then the unit is not able to shoot.
So if we have a unit with no weapon in range we still do everything of a shooting attack. ( keep in mind we also could to decide that any model or all of the unit dont shoot at all) The UNIT is still resolving a shooting attack.
If you reach a point in the shooting sequence where you are told the models in a unit (and by extension the unit as a whole) may not shoot, they may not shoot. It doesn't matter if you've reached step three and found you're unable to shoot; you can't claim, "I shot up to step 3, but then I wasn't actually allowed to shoot at all this phase."
CF does stat that we hav the aditional units to shoot at the same target. there is never mentioned that any model of said Unit makes one shoot. the UNIT is still shooting. ( in BRB terms this means it resolving a shooting attack.)
No, Coordinated Firepower requires the unit to add their firepower. You haven't proven nominating a unit to shoot or targeting (not that you are allowed to, given the nominated unit must be able to shoot, and being out of range makes you not able to shoot) means to add their firepower.
Mr. Shine is still using the wrong part of the rules. he always reffers to single models of a unit. but still. If a unit fires then this is always a shooting attack. At the begining of the page for the shootingphase this is statet.
No. Units are made up of models. If all models in a unit are not able to shoot the unit is not able to shoot. Indeed, "Who Can Shoot?" from the Shooting phase rules crosses models over with units. A unit cannot be considered to have shot if none of the models in it were allowed to shoot.
You claim I'm using the wrong part of the rules but you're either unable or unwilling to explain why that is the case, with reference to the rules. I could make a claim that your face is upside down, but it's a meaningless thing to say if I can't point to a picture to support my claim.
So please, support your claim. Don't just make another claim on top, but actually support it with a rules reference or quote.
Yarium wrote:Kanluwen - re-read what you just typed. You check the range and line of sight, but of those two only line of sight is a requirement, and is noted as such in the very next paragraph on that same page:
"To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."
Notice how there's no similar heading for range. Range is only checked much later for which models can fire, not whether the unit can fire.
As I've said earlier in the discussion, the first time you're told to nominate a unit to shoot (under the numerical list of 'The Shooting Sequence' the requirement is the unit is able to shoot. Further on under 'Who Can Shoot' you have examples of what can prevent a model from firing. We know from later in the Shooting phase rules that being out of range makes models not able to shoot, and unless you wish to claim a unit may shoot even if no models in that unit are able to do so (which is silly) then at step 1 of the Shooting Sequence we know that being in range with at least one weapon is a requirement to be able to shoot.
notredameguy10 wrote:So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.
Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)
Not quite, I think.
The units become one large unit for resolving their shooting attack. That is completely separate from the +1 Ballistic Skill. You could use Coordinated Firepower with two units and be using the rule, while not gaining +1 Ballistic Skill. What you must do is check within that super unit how many units are adding their firepower to the attack, so it's straightforward to both consider it as one super unit and note how many smaller units are adding their firepower within that super unit.
No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.
Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.
Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"
Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them
I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.
That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.
So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?
So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.
Provide a rule that states you must
Coordinated Firepower states you must shoot. So you have any rules to support your position?
Mr. Shine wrote: If all models in a unit are not in range then the unit is not able to shoot.
Rules quote for this assertion? You will be able to find one that has to do with line of sight but not one that has to do with range.
The actual rules place a range restriction on models but not on units that are shooting. The only restriction placed on the unit that is shooting has to do with line of sight.
Per the rules, a unit can shoot at a target unit provided it has line of sight, even if it is wholly comprised of models that are out of range of the target unit. In this case, no models will have fired a shot but the unit itself will have completed shooting and will be unable to elect to run.
col_impact wrote: Rules quote for this assertion? You will be able to find one that has to do with line of sight but not one that has to do with range.
From 'The Shooting Sequence':
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
And then from 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot':
"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
It's simply ridiculous to claim that a unit's models being unable to shoot allows it to make a shooting attack, given reference is made to models being prevented from firing under the rules for nominating a unit to shoot.
The actual rules place a range restriction on models but not on units that are shooting. The only restriction placed on the unit that is shooting has to do with line of sight.
Per the rules, a unit can shoot at a target unit provided it has line of sight, even if it is wholly comprised of models that are out of range of the target unit. In this case, no models will have fired a shot but the unit itself will have completed shooting and will be unable to elect to run.
You haven't provided any rules to support your assertion that nominating a unit to shoot and finding all models within it are prevent from shooting or not allowed to shoot has the unit shooting. Those models are specifically not allowed to shoot, so how are you claiming the unit is shooting?
Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.
Spoiler:
The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Coordinated Firepower states you must shoot. So you have any rules to support your position?
Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.
Spoiler:
The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
The only requirement is that the unit can draw line of sight from one of its models to a model in the target unit.
Nowhere does it state that for a unit to shoot at least one of its models must be in range of a model in the target unit.
So you've shown a unit can shoot at something it can see. Now show it has shot at that unit merely by targeting it. Also see Mr Shine's argument about who can shoot because you've even clipped that rule to falsely prove an entirely irrelevant point.
X078 wrote:Your example of a drunk friend is not exactly rules now is it? Mine has at least some relevance to the discussion.
Drawing a parallel using the same language with a different scenario is not the same as making up a story to explain something without reference to rules.
My "story" is not so made up, check the OP's first post.
And yet a unit being able to shoot or declaring/nominating to shoot is not the same as the models firing. You can also check this in the rulebook.
While true, you yourself already agreed if none of the models in a unit can shoot the unit cannot shoot. I've already provided reference where nominating a unit to shoot requires that unit to be able to shoot.
You keep saying i agree to things, i believe you are mixing up me stating units declaring to shoot and models being able to fire.
X078 wrote: My "story" is not so made up, check the OP's first post.
It's completely made up so far as the rules are concerned. You're trying to make up a fluffy story to support your argument in a rules discussion. Please try using and referring to the actual rules instead.
You keep saying i agree to things, i believe you are mixing up me stating units declaring to shoot and models being able to fire.
Mr. Shine wrote: And a unit that has no models in range has no models that can shoot. If a unit has no models that can shoot that unit cannot shoot.
You can still declare to make a shooting attack, you just can't fire.
What the rules actually say is, "cannot shoot at all that phase". The unit declaring it is attempting to make a shooting attack is not actually making a shooting attack when no members of that unit are allowed to shoot. My response and your next response were:
Mr. Shine wrote: Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.
If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.
Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.
So you did not dispute it when I stated you agreed. Are you now claiming a unit may be nominated to shoot if none of its members are able to shoot, despite what step 1 of The Shooting Sequence says?
Please provide rules support if that is your contention.
You haven't provided any rules to support your assertion that nominating a unit to shoot and finding all models within it are prevent from shooting or not allowed to shoot has the unit shooting. Those models are specifically not allowed to shoot, so how are you claiming the unit is shooting?
Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.
Spoiler:
The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Able to shoot does not mean "has shot".
For a unit to shoot it simply has to be legally permitted to go through the shooting process as outlined in the shooting sequence. As far as rules go, shooting for units is defined as being nominated to shoot and legally able to shoot and going through the shooting process. The unit can shoot if it has line of sight to the target unit. It can elect to participate in CF if it can shoot at the target unit. The +1 BS from CF is granted prior to any shots being fired, provided all units that join in shoot at the target unit. This is satisfied. The unit goes about shooting at the target unit, just no models can actually fire a shot due to being out of range. At the end of the shooting sequence, the unit will have completed shooting and will be unable to run, since the unit elected to shoot rather than run. Did the unit shoot? yes.
For a model to shoot it must have line of sight and be in range. If CF were dealing with models then CF would be restricted by line of sight and range. However, the rules for CF deal with the unit.
col_impact wrote: As far as rules go, shooting for units is defined as being nominated to shoot and legally able to shoot and going through the shooting process.
Do you have a rules quote that actually says a unit has shot if it has gone through the process?
Do you have a rules quote that actually says a unit has shot if it has gone through some of the process, but has had all its members disallowed (and thus itself as a unit) from completing the shooting process?
The unit can shoot if it has line of sight to the target unit. It can elect to participate in CF if it can shoot at the target unit. The +1 BS from CF is granted prior to any shots being fired, provided all units that join in shoot at the target unit. This is satisfied.
An entire unit's models are disallowed from shooting at all that phase prior to any shots being fired, too.
The requirement for +1 Ballistic Skill is three units combining their firepower in the attack. If an entire unit's models are not shooting, has that unit added any firepower to the attack? If so, please provide some rules support to show that firepower has been added without any models in the unit being allowed to shoot.
The unit goes about shooting at the target unit, just no models can actually fire a shot due to being out of range. At the end of the shooting sequence, the unit will have completed shooting and will be unable to run, since the unit elected to shoot rather than run. Did the unit shoot? yes.
If no models in the unit can fire a shot, how has the unit added firepower?
Okay, so to select a target to shoot, you have to check range and line of sight. What is to stop me from saying, 'Oh it is out of range? Oh well.' and\or 'No Line of Sight? dang.' This is a shooting army. If I want to shoot at something I cannot hurt, who are you to stop me from making a mistake?
The point is, we are ALLOWED to target things we cannot damage. There are markerlights for the first - str0 shots that cannot wound anything, are you going to say that we cannot shoot your targets with markerlights because they won't do anything to the target?
Then there is the Smart Missile System, a weapon that requires no Line of Sight. Are you going to say that since the check for the weapon says to check LoS that we cannot use it? If so, I'll keep that in mind next time I play against barrage weapons.
Then also, there is the Pulse Accelerator. Frankly it should be erratad to affect only pulse carbines, otherwise it can be heavily abused with stormsurges.
The check is only so that we don't 'waste' our shooting. nothing is said that either has to pass. only that we check.
It's completely made up so far as the rules are concerned. You're trying to make up a fluffy story to support your argument in a rules discussion. Please try using and referring to the actual rules instead.
Same as with your parallel, a scenario to support your own views on how one should interpret things.
So you did not dispute it when I stated you agreed. Are you now claiming a unit may be nominated to shoot if none of its members are able to shoot, despite what step 1 of The Shooting Sequence says?
So because you state something i must disagree otherwise i passively agree, nice rethoric
If no models in the unit can fire a shot, how has the unit added firepower?
What is firepower in game terms? Please point to a definition in the BRB. Otherwise you are trying to apply a fluffy understanding to make up some rule which you are not permitted to do.
CF only cares that a unit shoots at a target unit.
A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.
carldooley wrote: Okay, so to select a target to shoot, you have to check range and line of sight. What is to stop me from saying, 'Oh it is out of range? Oh well.' and\or 'No Line of Sight? dang.' This is a shooting army. If I want to shoot at something I cannot hurt, who are you to stop me from making a mistake?
The point is, we are ALLOWED to target things we cannot damage. There are markerlights for the first - str0 shots that cannot wound anything, are you going to say that we cannot shoot your targets with markerlights because they won't do anything to the target?
Then there is the Smart Missile System, a weapon that requires no Line of Sight. Are you going to say that since the check for the weapon says to check LoS that we cannot use it? If so, I'll keep that in mind next time I play against barrage weapons.
Then also, there is the Pulse Accelerator. Frankly it should be erratad to affect only pulse carbines, otherwise it can be heavily abused with stormsurges.
The check is only so that we don't 'waste' our shooting. nothing is said that either has to pass. only that we check.
The rules don't require you to target the unit but to shoot it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit).
A claim repeatedly made but yet to be supported by rules. So please support this with rules.
Let me go through the link between models and units being able to shoot again, with the rules...
"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."
A unit must be able to shoot to be nominated to shoot. We all agree on this.
"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.
Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running."
Okay, so now we get to the point of determining who can shoot. This is referring to models, sure. Let's continue on this same bit of rules, though...
"This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
Wait, what? A unit's ability to shoot? I thought we were talking about models?
Oh, that's right. Units are made up of models:
"In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units."
So the ability of models to shoot affects the unit's ability to shoot. This is established as above, from the rules. If no models in a unit are able to shoot, that unit is not able to shoot.
FlingitNow wrote: The rules don't require you to target the unit but to shoot it.
so where is the issue? the CFP allows you to resolve all the shooting as though it was coming from a single (combined) unit. the units that contribute change status from 'can shoot' to 'already shot'. if your opponent is employing CFP without actually shooting your units, why stop them from making an error?
or as the saying goes, 'Never stop an enemy from making a grievous mistake.'
The only real issue that I have with Combined Firepower is the Stormsurge and its stabilizing anchors, by which is its ability to fire twice. if both are resolved seperately (as it says) can the stormsurge take part in 2 CFPs? or are the special rules employed 'shared' for both shots?
X078 wrote: Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"
A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.
Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.
That same quote says, "that is able to shoot". As above, I've established from the rules that a unit's ability to shoot is dependent on its models' ability to shoot. If no models in a unit are able to shoot then that unit is unable to shoot, so cannot be nominated.
col_impact wrote: What is firepower in game terms? Please point to a definition in the BRB. Otherwise you are trying to apply a fluffy understanding to make up some rule which you are not permitted to do.
Let's see what the rulebook says about firepower...
"There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there. This assumes that the models shift their stances to open firing lanes in order to maximise their own unit’s firepower."
That deals with line of sight, so firepower must be dependent on having line of sight. We agree on this, so let's keep digging...
"The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later.
• Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary will be able to bring its full firepower to bear on the enemy.
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed. This represents the vehicle concentrating on moving as fast as possible – all of its firepower will be wildly inaccurate."
Okay, so firepower must have something to do with the number of weapons a vehicle may fire at full effect. That suggests the number of shots it can hit with, given that vehicle movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit things.
And that's all that I can find outside of fluff and flavour text in the rulebook, performing a search with the electronic version.
It seems evident to me that firepower then must require shots actually being fired, given what the vehicle rules say about firepower and the effect moving has on it.
A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.
Now you're describing "fluff" versions of "firepower" that have nothing to do with the actual rules.
And, once again, please stop trying to use "model" and "unit" interchangeably. They are not at all the same, and a unit is not just the sum of its models.
That same quote says, "that is able to shoot". As above, I've established from the rules that a unit's ability to shoot is dependent on its models' ability to shoot. If no models in a unit are able to shoot then that unit is unable to shoot, so cannot be nominated.
And still in the section:
"CHOOSE A TARGET Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."
You must check LOS and range but nothing says you cannot select a target even if you are out of range. In fact only LOS is picked out as being a must.
A little further down you can also read:
"A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit. "
So i have established that a unit can declare to shoot but also that i can choose not to fire certain models if i want to.
A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.
Still no rules to support this, I see.
I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.
Spoiler:
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Please provide rules support if that is your contention.
Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"
A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.
Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.
Having nominated something to shoot is not the same as having that same thing have shot.
And the CF rule has a requirement of Shooting, not just targeting or thinking about shooting, it must actually shoot. In order to shoot, To-Hit rolls or the placement of templates must occur, as the step right before states that they cannot shoot if they fail to meet LOS, Range, and Snap Shot requirements.
Peregrine wrote: Now you're describing "fluff" versions of "firepower" that have nothing to do with the actual rules.
No. The rules quite clearly explain how movement affects a vehicle's firepower. Considering movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit with its shots, we can only conclude that per the rulebook firepower must mean shots. It has nothing to do with fluff.
And, once again, please stop trying to use "model" and "unit" interchangeably. They are not at all the same, and a unit is not just the sum of its models.
I've just explained how the rules show us how a model's ability to shoot affects a unit's ability to shoot. If the rulebook uses model and unit interchangeably in talking about nominating a unit to shoot and determining who can shoot then so can I.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.
You're also conveniently ignoring where I showed you what the rulebook has to say about firepower, as you requested.
Yes, let's just handwave away inconvenient rules we don't agree with, then claim they're not there.
Mr. Shine wrote: No. The rules quite clearly explain how movement affects a vehicle's firepower. Considering movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit with its shots, we can only conclude that per the rulebook firepower must mean shots. It has nothing to do with fluff.
Except "firepower" in that sentence has no game-rules meaning. It's a fluff description of why the vehicle's speed matters. You never see a rule like "all of a model's firepower is BS 5 this turn", it would be written as "all of a model's shooting attacks are BS 5 this turn".
I've just explained how the rules show us how a model's ability to shoot affects a unit's ability to shoot. If the rulebook uses model and unit interchangeably in talking about nominating a unit to shoot and determining who can shoot then so can I.
You've done no such thing because the rules do not require any particular model to be able to shoot. The rules very clearly refer to selecting a target for the UNIT, applying the "can not run if you choose to shoot" rule to the UNIT, forcing a UNIT to charge the target that it shot at, etc. The shooting process from picking a target to ending the sequence and moving on to the next unit applies to the UNIT. Some of the steps may be resolved very quickly if no MODELS fire weapons, but the UNIT as a whole has still shot.
Please provide rules support if that is your contention.
Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"
A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.
Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.
Having nominated something to shoot is not the same as having that same thing have shot.
And the CF rule has a requirement of Shooting, not just targeting or thinking about shooting, it must actually shoot. In order to shoot, To-Hit rolls or the placement of templates must occur, as the step right before states that they cannot shoot if they fail to meet LOS, Range, and Snap Shot requirements.
The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.
In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.
col_impact wrote: I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.
You're also conveniently ignoring where I showed you what the rulebook has to say about firepower, as you requested.
Yes, let's just handwave away inconvenient rules we don't agree with, then claim they're not there.
You have shown no definition of firepower nor any rules associated with firepower (beyond firepower being used as a fluffy descriptor). In all examples you have provided it is merely descriptive fluff. It is up to you to define firepower unequivocally in game terms. This is going to be hard to do since the BRB index does not recognize it as a keyword.
Peregrine wrote: Except "firepower" in that sentence has no game-rules meaning. It's a fluff description of why the vehicle's speed matters. You never see a rule like "all of a model's firepower is BS 5 this turn", it would be written as "all of a model's shooting attacks are BS 5 this turn".
Sorry, but I don't buy that I'm not allowed to consider a rulebook's mention of the word "firepower" in proper context just because it doesn't have a glossary entry saying, "firepower means shots".
Even if that's the case though, you've got zero argument to say that combining firepower means simply shooting (but not actually shooting, because no models in the unit are permitted to shoot at all that phase, at one point in the shooting sequence or another) the same target, either. Shooting the same target is a restriction on units which are combining their firepower, but that doesn't define what combining firepower is. For example, to legally drive a car you must have a driver's licence, but having a driver's licence does not define legally driving a car.
You've done no such thing because the rules do not require any particular model to be able to shoot. The rules very clearly refer to selecting a target for the UNIT, applying the "can not run if you choose to shoot" rule to the UNIT, forcing a UNIT to charge the target that it shot at, etc. The shooting process from picking a target to ending the sequence and moving on to the next unit applies to the UNIT. Some of the steps may be resolved very quickly if no MODELS fire weapons, but the UNIT as a whole has still shot.
So the following reference to models and unit in the same portion of rules (which is, 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' is meaningless, then?
"Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
It's evident that models' ability to fire affects a unit's ability to shoot. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in the explanation of nominating a unit to shoot.
col_impact wrote: The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.
Indeed, that is a requirement for Coordinated Firepower. It's not a requirement for gaining +1 Ballistic Skill, though. The requirement for that is three or more units combining their firepower. You've also still not shown where the rules say that a unit is considered as shooting when it's found to have no models able to shoot. The rules clearly say a unit that wishes to shoot must do certain things, but you've yet to provide anything that says a unit has shot prior to us knowing definitively this has happened once To Hit rolls are made.
In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.
So you're saying a player can say, "Unit A is going to shoot your Unit 1. I am going to elect not to shoot with all models," and the unit has shot? Please provide rules which say a unit has shot without any shots having been made or rolled for.
You have shown no definition of firepower nor any rules associated with firepower (beyond firepower being used as a fluffy descriptor). In all examples you have provided it is merely descriptive fluff. It is up to you to define firepower unequivocally in game terms. This is going to be hard to do since the BRB index does not recognize it as a keyword.
If there's no definition of firepower, how are you telling when three or more units have combined their firepower? What are they combining? Can you show me in the rules where firepower is defined as shooting the same target? Once again, shooting the same target is something a unit adding their firepower to a Coordinated Firepower attack must do, but that's an additionally-stated requirement and not definitive.
Mr. Shine wrote: Sorry, but I don't buy that I'm not allowed to consider a rulebook's mention of the word "firepower" in proper context just because it doesn't have a glossary entry saying, "firepower means shots".
It's much more than not having a glossary entry. There's a different word for shots: "SHOTS". Or "shooting attacks". The game consistently refers to firing a weapon in those terms and never uses "firepower" outside of fluff descriptions of what a rule is representing.
Even if that's the case though, you've got zero argument to say that combining firepower means simply shooting (but not actually shooting, because no models in the unit are permitted to shoot at all that phase, at one point in the shooting sequence or another) the same target, either. Shooting the same target is a restriction on units which are combining their firepower, but that doesn't define what combining firepower is. For example, to legally drive a car you must have a driver's licence, but having a driver's licence does not define legally driving a car.
No, but taken in context the reference is obvious: combining firepower means participating in the process described in the previous sentence. You commit to the same target and resolve all of the combined shooting as a single unit.
So the following reference to models and unit in the same portion of rules (which is, 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' is meaningless, then?
"Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
It's evident that models' ability to fire affects a unit's ability to shoot. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in the explanation of nominating a unit to shoot.
That quote doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Nowhere in there does it say that the model's ability to fire has any effect on the unit's ability to shoot. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The MODEL can not shoot because the UNIT is locked in close combat or running. You have this completely backwards.
So you're saying a player can say, "Unit A is going to shoot your Unit 1. I am going to elect not to shoot with all models," and the unit has shot? Please provide rules which say a unit has shot without any shots having been made or rolled for.
You selected a unit to shoot with and resolved the entire sequence (from declaring a target to finishing and moving on to the next unit). The fact that no models fired weapons just means that some of the steps went by very quickly. The burden of proof here is on you to provide some support for your claim that "shooting with a unit" means something other than the process described in the shooting rules.
If there's no definition of firepower, how are you telling when three or more units have combined their firepower?
Because the sentence, when read as part of the complete CF rule instead of in isolation, is clearly saying "if you do this thing in the previous sentence and meet this additional condition then you get a bonus". When it says "combines their firepower" it's nothing more than a reference to what was just described in the previous sentence.
col_impact wrote:The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.
And zero quotes to support your assertion that a unit that has no models shooting is still shooting.
Every single independent use of the word "shoot" involves a Weapon performing a To-Hit roll, or at least its equivalent. There is no evidence that a unit can shoot without at least one model being able to pass its LOS and Range check somehow. That it can make an attempt, is not in question nor ever in argument. But that it actually SHOOTS is a different story.
col_impact wrote:In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.
No, it has gone through the Shooting Sequence and attempted a Shooting Attack, it has not shot. Please provide a properly referenced quote to support this assertion.
Peregrine wrote:No, but taken in context the reference is obvious: combining firepower means participating in the process described in the previous sentence. You commit to the same target and resolve all of the combined shooting as a single unit.
Wait, on the second page (on default posts/page) you stated that the second sentence tells you how to combine firepower, now you are stating the reverse because it doesn't fit what you want?
Now, it has yet to be properly justified that just targeting by a unit counts as shooting OR combining firepower.
Peregrine wrote:
So the following reference to models and unit in the same portion of rules (which is, 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' is meaningless, then?
"Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
It's evident that models' ability to fire affects a unit's ability to shoot. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in the explanation of nominating a unit to shoot.
That quote doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Nowhere in there does it say that the model's ability to fire has any effect on the unit's ability to shoot. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The MODEL can not shoot because the UNIT is locked in close combat or running. You have this completely backwards.
More importantly, there is nothing to state that otherwise. More to the point, there is nothing to state that when a unit nominates a target it is considered as actually shooting, even if no models shoot.
Peregrine wrote:You selected a unit to shoot with and resolved the entire sequence (from declaring a target to finishing and moving on to the next unit). The fact that no models fired weapons just means that some of the steps went by very quickly. The burden of proof here is on you to provide some support for your claim that "shooting with a unit" means something other than the process described in the shooting rules.
The Attack is Resolved, but that still do not mean the unit has shot. No support for this statement has been provided.
Now, this has been asked for a lot, but can you provide the actual quote that if no model fires the unit still counts as shooting?
Peregrine wrote:
If there's no definition of firepower, how are you telling when three or more units have combined their firepower?
Because the sentence, when read as part of the complete CF rule instead of in isolation, is clearly saying "if you do this thing in the previous sentence and meet this additional condition then you get a bonus". When it says "combines their firepower" it's nothing more than a reference to what was just described in the previous sentence.
Fascinating.
Charistoph wrote:
Peregrine wrote: The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
Let's see: "Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."
Okay, no argument there so far.
Peregrine wrote: The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
Peregrine wrote: The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.
Let's see: "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
So, when they combine firepower, which is the units shooting the same target, they add 1 to their Ballistic Skill, so only units who are in range of this target can participate and so only the units are in range will gain the BS bonus.
col_impact wrote:The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.
And zero quotes to support your assertion that a unit that has no models shooting is still shooting.
Every single independent use of the word "shoot" involves a Weapon performing a To-Hit roll, or at least its equivalent. There is no evidence that a unit can shoot without at least one model being able to pass its LOS and Range check somehow. That it can make an attempt, is not in question nor ever in argument. But that it actually SHOOTS is a different story.
col_impact wrote:In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.
No, it has gone through the Shooting Sequence and attempted a Shooting Attack, it has not shot. Please provide a properly referenced quote to support this assertion.
Peregrine wrote:No, but taken in context the reference is obvious: combining firepower means participating in the process described in the previous sentence. You commit to the same target and resolve all of the combined shooting as a single unit.
Wait, on the second page (on default posts/page) you stated that the second sentence tells you how to combine firepower, now you are stating the reverse because it doesn't fit what you want?
Now, it has yet to be properly justified that just targeting by a unit counts as shooting OR combining firepower.
Peregrine wrote:
So the following reference to models and unit in the same portion of rules (which is, 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' is meaningless, then?
"Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."
It's evident that models' ability to fire affects a unit's ability to shoot. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in the explanation of nominating a unit to shoot.
That quote doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Nowhere in there does it say that the model's ability to fire has any effect on the unit's ability to shoot. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The MODEL can not shoot because the UNIT is locked in close combat or running. You have this completely backwards.
More importantly, there is nothing to state that otherwise. More to the point, there is nothing to state that when a unit nominates a target it is considered as actually shooting, even if no models shoot.
Peregrine wrote:You selected a unit to shoot with and resolved the entire sequence (from declaring a target to finishing and moving on to the next unit). The fact that no models fired weapons just means that some of the steps went by very quickly. The burden of proof here is on you to provide some support for your claim that "shooting with a unit" means something other than the process described in the shooting rules.
The Attack is Resolved, but that still do not mean the unit has shot. No support for this statement has been provided.
Now, this has been asked for a lot, but can you provide the actual quote that if no model fires the unit still counts as shooting?
Peregrine wrote:
If there's no definition of firepower, how are you telling when three or more units have combined their firepower?
Because the sentence, when read as part of the complete CF rule instead of in isolation, is clearly saying "if you do this thing in the previous sentence and meet this additional condition then you get a bonus". When it says "combines their firepower" it's nothing more than a reference to what was just described in the previous sentence.
Fascinating.
Charistoph wrote:
Peregrine wrote: The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
Let's see: "Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."
Okay, no argument there so far.
Peregrine wrote: The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."
So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.
Peregrine wrote: The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.
Let's see: "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
So, when they combine firepower, which is the units shooting the same target, they add 1 to their Ballistic Skill, so only units who are in range of this target can participate and so only the units are in range will gain the BS bonus.
Quite fascinating.
I love how your only argument is constantly "give me a quote", How about YOU give a quote that says following the exact shooting sequence and opting not to shoot at a target isn't considered completing a shooting sequence.
Go back to 5th edition and earlier. There was no controversy at all that a unit was considered to have shot once it declared a target, even if all of its weapons were out of range. You had to guess if you were in range before measuring, and if you fell short you just missed the opportunity to fire. You didn't get to pick another target and try again, you didn't get to run, you did your shooting and you just didn't accomplish anything with it.
Now in 7th edition nothing has changed to remove this scenario. So why is it suddenly assumed that a unit has not shot until some of its models roll to hit? Can you cite specific rules that changed between 5th edition and 7th edition to make this work differently? Before you answer, remember that the ability to measure before committing is not a valid answer since it just helps to keep you from making stupid decisions, it's not mandatory to take advantage of the opportunity.
So again any rules at all that support the stance that a unit that hasn't fired a single shot has shot? We don't have to prove the contra position as English supports that position, you are claiming the rules give a different definition for having shot thus you need to prove it. So finally now page and paragraph for such proof or you are conceding.
FlingitNow wrote: So again any rules at all that support the stance that a unit that hasn't fired a single shot has shot? We don't have to prove the contra position as English supports that position, you are claiming the rules give a different definition for having shot thus you need to prove it. So finally now page and paragraph for such proof or you are conceding.
There are no such rules that support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, it is not needed. A unit is counted as having shot when it has finished its shooting phase, it can do this without its models firing a single shot.
FlingitNow wrote: So again any rules at all that support the stance that a unit that hasn't fired a single shot has shot? We don't have to prove the contra position as English supports that position, you are claiming the rules give a different definition for having shot thus you need to prove it. So finally now page and paragraph for such proof or you are conceding.
There are no rules to support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, it is not needed. A unit is counted as having shot when it has finished its shooting phase, it can do this without firing a single shot.
You are going to need to provide some clear rules to backup an argument like that.
Peregrine wrote: Go back to 5th edition and earlier. There was no controversy at all that a unit was considered to have shot once it declared a target, even if all of its weapons were out of range. You had to guess if you were in range before measuring, and if you fell short you just missed the opportunity to fire. You didn't get to pick another target and try again, you didn't get to run, you did your shooting and you just didn't accomplish anything with it.
Unless you have a rule from 5th edition that says otherwise, missing the opportunity to fire and actually having shot are two different things. I can't accept your proposition based on 5th edition rules, either, because I'd have to simply take your word for it without being able to check the reference.
Now in 7th edition nothing has changed to remove this scenario. So why is it suddenly assumed that a unit has not shot until some of its models roll to hit? Can you cite specific rules that changed between 5th edition and 7th edition to make this work differently? Before you answer, remember that the ability to measure before committing is not a valid answer since it just helps to keep you from making stupid decisions, it's not mandatory to take advantage of the opportunity.
Once again I'd have to take your word for it without being able to check any reference that the rules are consistent between 5th and 7th, but once more having failed to shoot by being told models cannot shoot at all this phase due to out of range and actually having shot are two different things.
As Charistoph pointed out, no one is arguing the unit has not attempted to make a shooting attack. But no one has proved that simply attempting suffices as shooting, or that simply attempting suffices as adding the unit's firepower to the attack.
X078 wrote:There are no such rules that support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, it is not needed. A unit is counted as having shot when it has finished its shooting phase, it can do this without its models firing a single shot.
If there are no such rules that support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, how on earth are you claiming it counts as having shot? Make sense, man!
You're basically saying, "There are no rules to support a unit has shot or not, but a unit has shot when it has finished its shooting phase. Even though I just said there are no rules to support that."
In fact there are rules to tell us when a unit definitely has shot: once To Hit rolls have been made. At that point you know models have been in range with weapons they have chosen to fire, and have fired.
You are going to need to provide some clear rules to backup an argument like that.
I do not since it is not needed. The game turn sequence explains it all perfectly fine. Like i mentioned there are no stages/phases/flags whatever in the way you are asking for that marks a unit having done anything. The only criteria is that it follows the phases and sequences as laid out in the BRB.
E.G. can you provide a rule that says all your units are finished with what they are doing and you are now ok to end your turn?
If the interpretation the Tau players endorse is taken seriously, that would mean that units without guns and only melee would qualify as shooting. I can't actually find somewhere that actually explicitly disqualifies the Tau formation from exploiting this loophole. RaW they are right as GW left phrasing from 5th edition in the 7th ed. ruleset. It just is a poorly written rule.
If there are no such rules that support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, how on earth are you claiming it counts as having shot? Make sense, man!
You're basically saying, "There are no rules to support a unit has shot or not, but a unit has shot when it has finished its shooting phase. Even though I just said there are no rules to support that."
In fact there are rules to tell us when a unit definitely has shot: once To Hit rolls have been made. At that point you know models have been in range with weapons they have chosen to fire, and have fired.
Simple, by going through each phase and resolving them.
This discussion needs to stop being a RaW discussion, as it IS actually clear, and move onto being a RaI one. X078 would you use this in a game against an opponent.
Quickjager wrote: If the interpretation the Tau players endorse is taken seriously, that would mean that units without guns and only melee would qualify as shooting. I can't actually find somewhere that actually explicitly disqualifies the Tau formation from exploiting this loophole. RaW they are right as GW left phrasing from 5th edition in the 7th ed. ruleset. It just is a poorly written rule.
Exactly, i myself am not arguing any intent just that by RAW this is allowed, intended or not.
I know I agree completely. RaW this DOES work due to left over 5th ed. rules being present. It really highlights (along with at LEAST 5 other issues) why a FAQ is needed; it is just we will never get one.
Yay.
At the end of the day discuss with your opponent, worst that can happen is no game.
Quickjager wrote: This discussion needs to stop being a RaW discussion, as it IS actually clear, and move onto being a RaI one. X078 would you use this in a game against an opponent.
Agree on the discussion part. My gaming group is pretty much by the book, allow everything by RAW. So normally yes i would use it unless agreed upon otherwise with a house-rule.
In return i get to face invisible titans on skyshield pad
Ok, three questions for those who think that a unit has not shot until at least one model in the unit has rolled to hit. A unit declares a target, but because of careless measuring before committing is found to be out of range of all of its weapons during step 3 of the shooting sequence.
1) May the unit declare a different target instead and start the process over? Step 1 of the shooting sequence is to select a unit that has not shot yet.
2) May the unit choose to run instead of shooting, even though it has already started the shooting sequence? Running happens instead of shooting.
3) Which unit(s) may the unit charge in the following assault phase? A unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit that it targeted.
Can't be bothered to quote a ton of messages with a mobile device.
To clarify something, I combine 3 units of crisis suits with different weapons to shoot at a single target unit. Enough models die to take my unit of plasmas out of range. You are actually saying that I now do not have three units to participate in the shooting attack, so cannot claim the +1BS? ..or what??
X078 wrote: Simple, by going through each phase and resolving them.
That makes no sense. By going through and resolving the Shooting phase your units count as having shot, even if no shots were fired?
Okay, if you say your Heavy weapon-armed unit shot and therefore cannot charge in the Assault phase even though they didn't fire any shots, feel free to play it that way. I won't stop you bizarrely gimping yourself, but don't expect me to do the same.
Peregrine wrote:Ok, three questions for those who think that a unit has not shot until at least one model in the unit has rolled to hit. A unit declares a target, but because of careless measuring before committing is found to be out of range of all of its weapons during step 3 of the shooting sequence.
The problem is you are equating any part of The Shooting Sequence with having actually fired, when we know this is not necessarily the case (based on models in a unit, and potentially thus an entire unit, being forbidden from shooting at all that phase if found to be out of range). But to answer your questions...
1) May the unit declare a different target instead and start the process over? Step 1 of the shooting sequence is to select a unit that has not shot yet.
If the models in the unit are found to be out of range of the same target as the rest of the unit (which would be the case if all models were out of range) we are told they cannot shoot at all that phase, so per RAW no, they may not. I would almost certainly allow them to target another unit out of sportsmanship though, and discounting the first shooting attempt.
2) May the unit choose to run instead of shooting, even though it has already started the shooting sequence? Running happens instead of shooting.
Units may choose to run instead of firing. If the unit has not fired, as it would not have if not in range, then it may run.
3) Which unit(s) may the unit charge in the following assault phase? A unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit that it targeted.
The restriction on charging is based on targeting, rather than firing/shooting. If they targeted a unit but failed to shoot at it as above, then of course they may still charge only that unit.
Naw wrote:To clarify something, I combine 3 units of crisis suits with different weapons to shoot at a single target unit. Enough models die to take my unit of plasmas out of range. You are actually saying that I now do not have three units to participate in the shooting attack, so cannot claim the +1BS? ..or what??
Presumably if you were foolish or unfortunate enough to resolve your weapon groups with the longer ranged weapons first, yes. In the same way as if you had three Riptides resolving different weapon groups and one died due to Nova Charge failing you would no longer have three Monstrous Creatures in the unit for Fire Team's bonus.
Or in the reverse if you had a unit in 6+ cover being shot by Skitarii Phosphor Weapons with the Luminagen special rule (unit suffering one or more unsaved wounds counts their cover save as one point worse) and they suffered one wound and subsequent wound pools then left them with no cover save.
Mr. Shine wrote: If the models in the unit are found to be out of range of the same target as the rest of the unit (which would be the case if all models were out of range) we are told they cannot shoot at all that phase, so per RAW no, they may not. I would almost certainly allow them to target another unit out of sportsmanship though, and discounting the first shooting attempt.
But I thought the unit hasn't shot yet? If it hasn't shot then I can select it as my next unit to shoot with.
The restriction on charging is based on targeting, rather than firing/shooting. If they targeted a unit but failed to shoot at it as above, then of course they may still charge only that unit.
The restriction only applies to units that have fired. A unit that hasn't fired is free to charge any unit you want. So you've just conceded defeat on this point, once a unit commits to shooting as part of the CF attack it is considered to have shot, contributes to the 3+ unit count, and may only charge the unit that was targeted with CF (if, for some reason, you want to charge as Tau).
Presumably if you were foolish or unfortunate enough to resolve your weapon groups with the longer ranged weapons first, yes. In the same way as if you had three Riptides resolving different weapon groups and one died due to Nova Charge failing you would no longer have three Monstrous Creatures in the unit for Fire Team's bonus.
Wrong again. The rule says that if 3+ units contribute, not if 3+ units are currently contributing. Once you have passed the "3+ units declared" requirement the bonus is assigned and not checked continuously.
Understood. You are following your own house rule and not rules as written. No one has died, the weapons are just out of range in the unit and therefore cannot shoot, but they have participated to the shooting attack.
Now that this is out of the way there's nothing to prevent a coldstar commander choosing a target in line of sight and actually shooting, because as established the new unit for this shooting attack shoot at the same target. It is just that some of them do not choose to use their weapons or are out of range.
We have shown that this is permissible by the rules but you neep clinging to must shoot at the same target and completely ignoring the context. We have satisfied the rule of choosing the same target, we have satisfied the rule of choosing weapon(s), rolled to hit, rolled to wound etc, ie. all models in the single unit have had a chance to either shoot or not shoot as the rules allow.
You really do not have basis for your argument. It's really very simple. We are not forced to shoot a specific weapon if we don't want to, why do you think we must? You seem to handle the unit in CF as separate units somehow.
You are going to need to provide some clear rules to backup an argument like that.
I do not since it is not needed. The game turn sequence explains it all perfectly fine. Like i mentioned there are no stages/phases/flags whatever in the way you are asking for that marks a unit having done anything. The only criteria is that it follows the phases and sequences as laid out in the BRB.
E.G. can you provide a rule that says all your units are finished with what they are doing and you are now ok to end your turn?
Whether you feel it is needer or not is irreverent. You need to provide a clear logic and evidence in order to show that your strong style argument is valid. A strong argument is defined as being an absolute.
Please explain in the permissive ruleset, how your argument is valid and true.
Peregrine wrote: But I thought the unit hasn't shot yet? If it hasn't shot then I can select it as my next unit to shoot with.
You must select a unit that is able to fire, though. If the unit's models "cannot fire at all that phase" due to being out of range then the unit itself cannot be said to be able to shoot.
The restriction only applies to units that have fired. A unit that hasn't fired is free to charge any unit you want. So you've just conceded defeat on this point, once a unit commits to shooting as part of the CF attack it is considered to have shot, contributes to the 3+ unit count, and may only charge the unit that was targeted with CF (if, for some reason, you want to charge as Tau).
Oh indeed, my mistake - I noted only the last part of the sentence and missed the first bit. I've not automatically conceded defeat, but I must of course change my response. If the unit was found not able to shoot for being out of range then it would be free to charge a unit other than the one it targeted, because it did not fire.
Wrong again. The rule says that if 3+ units contribute, not if 3+ units are currently contributing. Once you have passed the "3+ units declared" requirement the bonus is assigned and not checked continuously.
You're saying I'm wrong because the rules say if 3+ units contribute, then claim that the point to pass is 3+ units having declared they will do so. You're trying to satisfy something requiring apples with oranges, my friend.
The requirement is for three or more units to combine their firepower, so perhaps if you want to delve that deeply into it you must check at each weapon selected step whether three or more units are combining or have already combined their firepower.
I don't think it's necessary for this discussion though, as the point we're arguing is whether an out of range unit to start with can contribute.
Oh hey, now that I think about it a little more, my minor point there turns out to be the decisive and indisputable conclusion that units which are out of range still count. Let's read the CF rule again:
When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill.
Note the tense on the highlighted verb: when units combine their firepower. Not when units have combined, are combining, etc. This is indisputably a one-time check: have 3+ units combined their firepower? If so, +1 BS. You do not check it multiple times as the attack is resolved because then the appropriate tense would be "are combining" instead. So, when do we check to see if the +1 BS bonus is applied? For simplicity we'll assume that exactly three units participate in the attack.
If the bonus is applied once 3+ units have each fired at least one weapon then the the rule is either broken or useless, depending on how you define "resolved as a single unit". Arguably it is impossible to meet the condition, since by the time any to-hit rolls are made the units all count as a single unit and by definition can not be 3+ units at the same time. In this case the +1 BS bonus will never be granted. But even counting the units individually for this purpose while still rolling dice as a single unit doesn't help much. Remember that all weapons of the same type are fired simultaneously, so weapons from multiple sub-units will be fired at the same time. Now you've created the awkward mess where you fire each class of weapons (fusion guns, pulse rifles, etc), and somewhere in that sequence of weapon types you will start adding +1 BS because weapons from 3+ sub-units have fired.
If the bonus is applied once 3+ units have been found to be in range and able to have at least one weapon fire a model then nothing changes. Range is not measured officially until you declare a weapon type and measure range from all models that wish to fire that weapon.
If the bonus is applied once 3+ units are declared to be participating in the CF attack then everything works just fine. You declare 1-2 units and resolve the shots as one unit but with no BS bonus, or you declare 3+ units and get +1 BS. Once the declaration is made the bonus is set and there's no arguing over the precise definition of "as a single unit".
I'll let you decide which of these interpretations appeals to you the most, but I'm going to go with the one that has the +1 BS rule actually do something instead of being a broken rule that can never apply.
Okay, if you say your Heavy weapon-armed unit shot and therefore cannot charge in the Assault phase even though they didn't fire any shots, feel free to play it that way. I won't stop you bizarrely gimping yourself, but don't expect me to do the same.
Even for Tau which this primarily concerns, this situation would be very rare and probably only occur when using CF, and only when the tradeoff of giving +1BS by not firing from another unit would be worth it. Like in the OP's first post.
Peregrine wrote: Oh hey, now that I think about it a little more, my minor point there turns out to be the decisive and indisputable conclusion that units which are out of range still count. Let's read the CF rule again:
When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill.
Note the tense on the highlighted verb: when units combine their firepower. Not when units have combined, are combining, etc. This is indisputably a one-time check: have 3+ units combined their firepower? If so, +1 BS. You do not check it multiple times as the attack is resolved because then the appropriate tense would be "are combining" instead. So, when do we check to see if the +1 BS bonus is applied? For simplicity we'll assume that exactly three units participate in the attack.
Except that's not how the present simple tense works. It's used for expected repeated future or habitual actions.
"When you leave the house and lock the door properly, you are given a treat."
Are you granted a treat every time you lock the door, even if you only locked it one time? No.
More important to focus on is the conjunction "when" which connects the cause and effect clauses of the sentence. Thus in fact it is a more-than-once check for the cause (or requirement in this case) to have occurred to trigger the effect, if you wish to use that effect (i.e. +1 BS).
1)If the models in the unit are found to be out of range of the same target as the rest of the unit (which would be the case if all models were out of range) we are told they cannot shoot at all that phase, so per RAW no, they may not. I would almost certainly allow them to target another unit out of sportsmanship though, and discounting the first shooting attempt.
2)Units may choose to run instead of firing. If the unit has not fired, as it would not have if not in range, then it may run.
I hate multiquote.
1. the second sentence of Coordinated Firepower says to resolve the shooting as though it was coming from a single unit. It doesn't matter if the supporting units are out of range. Presumably, the first squad is in range and as such they all (the guns in range) get to shoot.
2. This is Tau. unless you are playing by ITC which specifically disallows it, you can run AND shoot. You can snap fire when within 12" of an Ethereal employing Zephyr's Grace (pg.77, Tau Empire Codex), or shoot normally when within 12" of a Commander or Fireblade from a Hunter Cadre thanks to Ambushes and Feints (p.105, Tau Empire Codex).
about 2. it is a shame that GW isn't doing FAQs or erratas anymore. what happens when a heavy weapon doesn't move in the movement phase but runs under Ambushes & Feints in the shooting phase? it didn't move in the movement phase, so does it get to fire at full BS after running?
X078 wrote: A unit is counted as having shot when it has finished its shooting phase, it can do this without its models firing a single shot.
So a unit that Runs in the shooting phase now count as having shot? What target did they shoot at, so if they have a special rule that allows them to charge after Running I know who they can charge?
FlingitNow wrote: So again any rules at all that support the stance that a unit that hasn't fired a single shot has shot? We don't have to prove the contra position as English supports that position, you are claiming the rules give a different definition for having shot thus you need to prove it. So finally now page and paragraph for such proof or you are conceding.
There are no such rules that support a unit being in a "stage" or whatever that "marks" it as having shot or not, it is not needed. A unit is counted as having shot when it has finished its shooting phase, it can do this without its models firing a single shot.
So we KNOW by English if any models in the unit have fired one or more shots then the Unit has shot. You're saying that merely targeting is enough to qualify as having shot and have admitted that no rules support your stance. Thus by the tenets you must mark your post clearly has HYWPI. Thank you for conceding on the RaW.
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Naw wrote: Can't be bothered to quote a ton of messages with a mobile device.
To clarify something, I combine 3 units of crisis suits with different weapons to shoot at a single target unit. Enough models die to take my unit of plasmas out of range. You are actually saying that I now do not have three units to participate in the shooting attack, so cannot claim the +1BS? ..or what??
So we KNOW by English if any models in the unit have fired one or more shots then the Unit has shot. You're saying that merely targeting is enough to qualify as having shot and have admitted that no rules support your stance. Thus by the tenets you must mark your post clearly has HYWPI. Thank you for conceding on the RaW.
I am not saying anything, the rules are and they are quite clear. You are of course free to house-rule this together with your friends if you agree on that.
So we KNOW by English if any models in the unit have fired one or more shots then the Unit has shot. You're saying that merely targeting is enough to qualify as having shot and have admitted that no rules support your stance. Thus by the tenets you must mark your post clearly has HYWPI. Thank you for conceding on the RaW.
I am not saying anything, the rules are and they are quite clear. You are of course free to house-rule this together with your friends if you agree on that.
What rules? Please quote as we've been asking for since page 1. Where in the rules does it state merely targeting a unit counts as shooting that unit? Page and paragraph.
_ghost_ wrote: A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
And you have rules to support this stance I assume or is this your HYWPI in which case please label it as such.
"The Shooting Phase ...Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase." (and no you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps)
Like stated before in this thread you resolve each phase and by that it is resolved. If you are looking for a rule that states e.g. "now your unit counts as being ultimately done with the shooting phase" you will not find one because it does not exist and is not needed. If you think that it should exist then i suggest you continue posting it as HYWPI where it belongs.
_ghost_ wrote: A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
And you have rules to support this stance I assume or is this your HYWPI in which case please label it as such.
"The Shooting Phase ...Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase." (and no you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps)
Like stated before in this thread you resolve each phase and by that it is resolved. If you are looking for a rule that states e.g. "now your unit counts as being ultimately done with the shooting phase" you will not find one because it does not exist and is not needed. If you think that it should exist then i suggest you continue posting it as HYWPI where it belongs.
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Flingitnow,
pardon me, but why does it matter|? for the buffmander? if it is by itself (monat) then it cannot contribute to a Coordinated Firepower, but give it a Gun or Marker Drone (or you know, put it in a unit) and it is all good.
Frankly, there is a simple solution - break up the 3 signature systems across the 3 crisis teams that the Hunter Cadre has to take anyway - and don't give the shas'vres carrying them any weapons considering that there is plenty of support systems that they can take instead.
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works. If you want it to count as having shot without shooting you need to prove it. Permissive ruleset and all...
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carldooley wrote: Flingitnow,
pardon me, but why does it matter|? for the buffmander? if it is by itself (monat) then it cannot contribute to a Coordinated Firepower, but give it a Gun or Marker Drone (or you know, put it in a unit) and it is all good.
Frankly, there is a simple solution - break up the 3 signature systems across the 3 crisis teams that the Hunter Cadre has to take anyway - and don't give the shas'vres carrying them any weapons considering that there is plenty of support systems that they can take instead.
Who's said anything about the buffmander? What is his relevance? This is about if a unit that hasn't shot at the target unit as is required by CF can count toward the 3 unit tally for +1bs. Some people are claiming that only targeting the unit is enough and you don't have to shoot the unit like the rules say. They refuse to support their stance with any rules though...
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works
Hey, that's great! Let's try math next, ok? If three units combine their shooting, according to CF rule how many units make a shooting attack?
Next question is for you to produce a rule that forces everyone to shoot. I can provide a rule saying exactly the opposite.
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works
Hey, that's great! Let's try math next, ok? If three units combine their shooting, according to CF rule how many units make a shooting attack?
Next question is for you to produce a rule that forces everyone to shoot. I can provide a rule saying exactly the opposite.
Coordinated Firepower requires that each individual unit must shoot to if they are part of the CF attack.
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works. If you want it to count as having shot without shooting you need to prove it. Permissive ruleset and all...
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
...They refuse to support their stance with any rules though...
Numerous people in this thread have supported their view with rules, you might have overlooked that though. And as for the wording of shooting, having shot or whatever you like to call it, that is not a rule in 40k but something you assume. You have the Shooting Phase and the Shooting Sequence, when that is resolved any involved unit is done with its shooting phase.
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
No if the unit hasn't shot any shots then it hasn't shot. Again you say that is not how the rules work but again refuse to support that with any rules. You have maintained this stance (as have several others) and not once supported it with any rules. Are you going to support that stance? Are you going to explain why you believe that merely targeting is the same as shooting?
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works
Hey, that's great! Let's try math next, ok? If three units combine their shooting, according to CF rule how many units make a shooting attack?
Next question is for you to produce a rule that forces everyone to shoot. I can provide a rule saying exactly the opposite.
Coordinated Firepower requires that each individual unit must shoot to if they are part of the CF attack.
The question was "how many". Can you please answer this? You know you are incorrect when you refuse to answer.
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works. If you want it to count as having shot without shooting you need to prove it. Permissive ruleset and all...
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
These guys try to invalidate how e.g. Warp Spiders or Ghostkeels trigger their powers. Pretty funny, since there is no rules support other than insisting very hard.
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works
Hey, that's great! Let's try math next, ok? If three units combine their shooting, according to CF rule how many units make a shooting attack?
Next question is for you to produce a rule that forces everyone to shoot. I can provide a rule saying exactly the opposite.
Coordinated Firepower requires that each individual unit must shoot to if they are part of the CF attack.
The question was "how many". Can you please answer this? You know you are incorrect when you refuse to answer.
Sorry the answer to your question is 3 and all 3 units MUST fire shots at the target unit or you are breaking the CF rule.
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These guys try to invalidate how e.g. Warp Spiders or Ghostkeels trigger their powers. Pretty funny, since there is no rules support other than insisting very hard.
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
No if the unit hasn't shot any shots then it hasn't shot. Again you say that is not how the rules work but again refuse to support that with any rules. You have maintained this stance (as have several others) and not once supported it with any rules. Are you going to support that stance? Are you going to explain why you believe that merely targeting is the same as shooting?
Because it is all handled in the Shooting phase, it doesn't matter if i select a weapon or fire (or choose not to as shown above), this is RAW in the BRB. The only requirement for resolving the shooting phase is LOS.
When it says somewhere in a rule that a unit must shoot that means, RAW, you have to resolve a shooting phase, there is nothing else. The support for this is in the BRB, as quoted by quite a few in this thread, you can choose to ignore all that, which you seem to have done so far, but the fact remains, rules support have been put forth by many, you have put forth nothing sofar,
Because it is all handled in the Shooting phase, it doesn't matter if i target something or select a weapon or fire (or choose not to as shown above), this is RAW in the BRB. The only requirement for resolving the shooting phase is LOS.
When it says somewhere in a rule that a unit must shoot that means,RAW, you have to resolve a shooting phase, there is nothing else. The support for this is in the BRB, as quoted by quite a few in this thread, you can choose to ignore all that, which you seem to have done so far, but the fact remains, rules support have been put forth by many, you have put forth nothing sofar,
So you make the claim underlined AGAIN this time saying it is supported by RaW. Please support it with the RaW that states that. Page and paragraph or was that a lie?
The rule tells us the unit must shoot. We know that firing shots is part of the shooting phase, thus by normal English a unit having shot is a unit that has fired one or more shots. Unless you have another definition like you claim you have but have refused to support on each occasion.
So you make the claim underlined AGAIN this time saying it is supported by RaW. Please support it with the RaW that states that. Page and paragraph or was that a lie?
Look up THE SHOOTING PHASE in the BRB, if you have the book that is.
You still confuse "must shoot" with firing a shot from a weapon?
The rule tells us the unit must shoot. We know that firing shots is part of the shooting phase, thus by normal English a unit having shot is a unit that has fired one or more shots. Unless you have another definition like you claim you have but have refused to support on each occasion.
The underlined sentenced is entirely assumption on your part. The definition of shooting in 40k is made clear in the Shooting Phase rules.
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
No if the unit hasn't shot any shots then it hasn't shot. Again you say that is not how the rules work but again refuse to support that with any rules. You have maintained this stance (as have several others) and not once supported it with any rules. Are you going to support that stance? Are you going to explain why you believe that merely targeting is the same as shooting?
The CF rule only requires that a unit shoots and does not require that at least one model fires a shot in each unit. Units don't fire any shots, models do. You are literally making up a requirement that a unit only shoots if a model fires a shot.
A unit shoots by attempting a shooting attack in the shooting phase and following the shooting sequence, during which all, some, or none of the models in the unit fire a shot. The only requirement that a unit must make in order to shoot and complete the shooting sequence is that the unit must be in line of sight with the target unit. This is how the rules work - simply read and apply the shooting sequence to the units that participate legally in the shooting process. A unit shoots when it goes through the shooting process in the shooting sequence.
If anyone feels otherwise, the burden of proof is on them to find a rule that states that a unit counts as shooting only if at least one model in the unit fires a shot in the shooting sequence. You don't get to appeal to English only. You must find support in the rules themselves. Shooting in game terms is going through the shooting process in the shooting sequence during the shooting phase. A unit shoots by participating in the shooting sequence. As long as a unit can legally participate in the shooting sequence it can fulfill the CF requirement that the unit shoots.
So you make the claim underlined AGAIN this time saying it is supported by RaW. Please support it with the RaW that states that. Page and paragraph or was that a lie?
Look up THE SHOOTING PHASE in the BRB, if you have the book that is.
You still confuse "must shoot" with firing a shot from a weapon?
The rule tells us the unit must shoot. We know that firing shots is part of the shooting phase, thus by normal English a unit having shot is a unit that has fired one or more shots. Unless you have another definition like you claim you have but have refused to support on each occasion.
The underlined sentenced is entirely assumption on your part. The definition of shooting in 40k is made clear in the Shooting Phase rules.
So what page and paragraph of the shoot phase exactly says that merely targeting a unit counts as shooting it? Yes the underlined is how English works so if it is incorrect if the rules have a different definition of the verb shoot you must provide it or we default to English. So page and paragraph. Or mark your post clearly as HYWPI.
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
No if the unit hasn't shot any shots then it hasn't shot. Again you say that is not how the rules work but again refuse to support that with any rules. You have maintained this stance (as have several others) and not once supported it with any rules. Are you going to support that stance? Are you going to explain why you believe that merely targeting is the same as shooting?
The CF rule only requires that a unit shoots and does not require that at least one model fires a shot in each unit. Units don't fire any shots, models do. You are literally making up a requirement that a unit only shoots if a model fires a shot.
A unit shoots by attempting a shooting attack in the shooting phase and following the shooting sequence, during which all, some, or none of the models in the unit fire a shot. The only requirement that a unit must make in order to shoot and complete the shooting sequence is that the unit must be in line of sight with the target unit. This is how the rules work - simply read and apply the shooting sequence to the units that participate legally in the shooting process. A unit shoots when it goes through the shooting process in the shooting sequence.
If anyone feels otherwise, the burden of proof is on them to find a rule that states that a unit counts as shooting only if at least one model in the unit fires a shot in the shooting sequence. You don't get to appeal to English only. You must find support in the rules themselves. Shooting in game terms is going through the shooting process in the shooting sequence during the shooting phase. A unit shoots by participating in the shooting sequence. As long as a unit can legally participate in the shooting sequence it can fulfill the CF requirement that the unit shoots.
Incorrect if there is a disagreement about the definition of a tern and one side is using the normal English definition and the other is using an "in game" definition the burden of proof is always on the later. We always default to English unless the rules say otherwise no one has yet to provide any evidence that the rules say otherwise for shooting, the rules have a definition for firing shots and thus shooting refers to this unless you can prove otherwise.
So do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting attack without firing any shots is still considered shooting? Anything at all?
See my former post.
Do you have any rules to support your claim that completing a shooting phase without firing any shots is not considered shooting?Anything at all?
Sigh. So if the unit shoots it has shot that is how English works
Hey, that's great! Let's try math next, ok? If three units combine their shooting, according to CF rule how many units make a shooting attack?
Next question is for you to produce a rule that forces everyone to shoot. I can provide a rule saying exactly the opposite.
Coordinated Firepower requires that each individual unit must shoot to if they are part of the CF attack.
The question was "how many". Can you please answer this? You know you are incorrect when you refuse to answer.
Sorry the answer to your question is 3 and all 3 units MUST fire shots at the target unit or you are breaking the CF rule.
Let's see what Coordinated Firepower actually says: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack. These units must shoot at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit
So your answer of "3" was obviously incorrect. The correct answer is "1". Now let's follow the rest of the Shooting steps:
Step 3: Select weapons and check range -> BRBpg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
Now do you have any rules quotes to support your stance or will you finally concede the point? You haven't shown any rules in support.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
These guys try to invalidate how e.g. Warp Spiders or Ghostkeels trigger their powers. Pretty funny, since there is no rules support other than insisting very hard.
Please explain what you mean?
Apologies, Warp Spiders are worded a bit differently, but Ghostkeel is not. Assume I select Ghostkeel as a target and join with CF, Holophoton Countermeasures are triggered. I elect not to shoot at all, in which case according to you I have not joined to the CF and not shot yet. Thus I do not suffer anything negative with my two other units, and got the Ghostkeel to waste their Countermeasures.
That might be how English works but it is not how the 40k rules for the shooting phase works. You need to follow the Shooting phase sequence. Tell me, e.g. i have a few units nominated for shooting, i select a target, and i am about to select a weapon, but i now choose not fire anything and resolve my shooting phase for each unit, which is perfectly fine RAW. Now do my units count as having shot (as you phrase it) and if not where does it say they do not count?
I'll put a snippet from the SELECT A WEAPON rule here, you can peruse it yourself if you want to read the whole thing:
"[...A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit..."
No if the unit hasn't shot any shots then it hasn't shot. Again you say that is not how the rules work but again refuse to support that with any rules. You have maintained this stance (as have several others) and not once supported it with any rules. Are you going to support that stance? Are you going to explain why you believe that merely targeting is the same as shooting?
The CF rule only requires that a unit shoots and does not require that at least one model fires a shot in each unit. Units don't fire any shots, models do. You are literally making up a requirement that a unit only shoots if a model fires a shot.
A unit shoots by attempting a shooting attack in the shooting phase and following the shooting sequence, during which all, some, or none of the models in the unit fire a shot. The only requirement that a unit must make in order to shoot and complete the shooting sequence is that the unit must be in line of sight with the target unit. This is how the rules work - simply read and apply the shooting sequence to the units that participate legally in the shooting process. A unit shoots when it goes through the shooting process in the shooting sequence.
If anyone feels otherwise, the burden of proof is on them to find a rule that states that a unit counts as shooting only if at least one model in the unit fires a shot in the shooting sequence. You don't get to appeal to English only. You must find support in the rules themselves. Shooting in game terms is going through the shooting process in the shooting sequence during the shooting phase. A unit shoots by participating in the shooting sequence. As long as a unit can legally participate in the shooting sequence it can fulfill the CF requirement that the unit shoots.
I fear we have a long wait ahead as they cannot procuce any rules to support their point, otherwise they would have done so 7 pages ago.
Let's see what Coordinated Firepower actually says: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack. These units must shoot at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit
So your answer of "3" was obviously incorrect. The correct answer is "1". Now let's follow the rest of the Shooting steps:
Step 3: Select weapons and check range -> BRBpg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
Now do you have any rules quotes to support your stance or will you finally concede the point? You haven't shown any rules in support.
Actually I have supported my stance with the relevant rules. On the first count yes the 3 units are treated as a single unit for the resolving of their shots not for anything else so the answer is 3. Now each individual unit MUST SHOOT (fire some shots) at the target or you have broken CF. Do you disagree with my definition of "must shoot" if so expkain why it is incorrect in English or provide a page reference where the rules supply another definition of shoot?
Ghostkeel works fine with my rules read the Holofield Counter Measures and explain why they wouldn't? Remembering they are triggered by being targeted (rather than being shot) and their rule lasts for the entire shooting phase once triggered.
Incorrect if there is a disagreement about the definition of a tern and one side is using the normal English definition and the other is using an "in game" definition the burden of proof is always on the later. We always default to English unless the rules say otherwise no one has yet to provide any evidence that the rules say otherwise for shooting, the rules have a definition for firing shots and thus shooting refers to this unless you can prove otherwise.
Incorrect. Game definitions always trump English definitions as far as discussing RAW. Mark your argument as HYWPI if you want to continue to place your colloquial English discussion over the rules. I will stick with the rules.
You have yet to provide a quote that says a unit only counts as shooting if at least one model in the unit fires a shot. Otherwise the rules make it abundantly clear that a unit shoots when it makes a legal attempt at a shooting attack in the shooting process as outlined in the shooting sequence during the shooting phase. The rules only require that a unit have line of sight to make a legal attempt at a shooting attack. A unit can commit all, some, or none of its models to the shooting attack. No matter how many models participate in the shooting attack, the shooting attack attempt will have been made - the unit shoots and is no longer able to shoot or run in the shooting phase.
Let's see what Coordinated Firepower actually says: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack. These units must shoot at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit
So your answer of "3" was obviously incorrect. The correct answer is "1". Now let's follow the rest of the Shooting steps:
Step 3: Select weapons and check range -> BRBpg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
Now do you have any rules quotes to support your stance or will you finally concede the point? You haven't shown any rules in support.
Actually I have supported my stance with the relevant rules. On the first count yes the 3 units are treated as a single unit for the resolving of their shots not for anything else so the answer is 3. Now each individual unit MUST SHOOT (fire some shots) at the target or you have broken CF. Do you disagree with my definition of "must shoot" if so expkain why it is incorrect in English or provide a page reference where the rules supply another definition of shoot?
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
If you still don't think this is the case, how about I try to spell it out for you in a different way:
I have 1 riptide with IA, 3 crisis suits with plasma and 3 broadsides with hymp/pods. CF is triggered, all enter shooting sequence. Riptide gets +1 BS and other benefits, let's say marker lights are used for ignore cover. In step 3 IA is chosen and resolved, killing the target squad. Now according to you, as those two other units did not shoot anything I get to do the shooting sequence again with them. Plasmas will shoot one target and broadsides another. Good, I have now satisfied your inane reading of the rule.
However that is not how it works.
Ghostkeel works fine with my rules read the Holofield Counter Measures and explain why they wouldn't? Remembering they are triggered by being targeted (rather than being shot) and their rule lasts for the entire shooting phase once triggered.
So who is targeted as my other two units obviously have not shot anyone. Are you saying that they are somehow in shooting sequence part 2? How could they be? I thought we start from step 1, ie. choose a unit that has not yet shot and then proceed to step 2 to choose targets. You are the one who breaks the rules, not I. I follow the rules and both situations are resolved correctly.
I had to make an account. The fact that this fling guy is giving rules and reason, and you guys are simply refusing to accept them cause reasons is insane. Is this how you guys must play? Trying to get everything you can? Someone gives you a valid response with rules quotes and all and you just "can't agree cause I don't like that, it nerfs my stuff"? That's insane.
Ceaser wrote: I had to make an account. The fact that this fling guy is giving rules and reason, and you guys are simply refusing to accept them cause reasons is insane. Is this how you guys must play? Trying to get everything you can? Someone gives you a valid response with rules quotes and all and you just "can't agree cause I don't like that, it nerfs my stuff"? That's insane.
We must have missed the rules quotes, luckily you created an account just to bring up this point. Thank you for contributing.
Let's go through this entire process, start to finish.I do not have the ranges for the Tau weaponry on hand, so I will use an ork squad armed with 9 sluggas (range = 12") and 1 shoota (range = 24"). Just pretend that they are whatever the Tau equivalent of pistols are.
BRB wrote:1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
My unit of orks is not locked in close combat or running. I am also not trying to snapshot template weapons or perform any other action where the rules explicitly forbid me from shooting. Check.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
What does it mean to nominate a target? According to the rules:
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.
I measure range and check line of sight to a squad of space marines. I find that I am in line of sight and am 35" away. I then target that unit as at least one model has line of sight to that unit. Check.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
I select the shoota. My model with the shoota is not in range so no shots are fired. Check.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
0 rolls to hit, 0 successes. Check.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
0 rolls to wound, 0 successes. Check.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
0 wounds allocated. Check.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
I select the sluggas and repeat steps 3 through 7, with a total of 0 hits and 0 wounds. Check. The unit has gone through steps 1-7 of the shooting phase and has been considered to have made a shooting attack at the enemy unit.
Now looking at the Tau rule where my unit of orks that are somehow part of this formation wish to contribute firepower:
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack.
Starts off with a fluff description of what is going on along with some basic prerequisites (unit making a shooting attack).
These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities.
My orks, as I have shown above, are allowed to shoot at the enemy unit. They cannot hurt the unit, but they can shoot at it.
When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
3 units, including my orks are now combining their firepower (defined in sentence 2 as: shoot the same target). Each of the units gets a +1 to their ballistics skill as they resolve their attacks. These may not have all been the most effective of shooting attacks, but they were shooting attacks.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Signless recheck what you said at step 3 vs your rules quote. The models don't fire 0 shots they are not allowed to shoot thus if you are counting them as having shot you have broken that very rule you quoted.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.
Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Sorry pal, but I quoted rules whereas you go on with "but that's English language man". Why don't you hit the triangle if you think I didn't support my position with real actual rules?
The Signless recheck what you said at step 3 vs your rules quote. The models don't fire 0 shots they are not allowed to shoot thus if you are counting them as having shot you have broken that very rule you quoted.
I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight?
Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.
Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.
Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.
Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.
Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.
So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"
I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight?
Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?
Well done you quoted a rule that allows you to choose not to fire a weapon during a shooting attack. Where have I disputed that permission? Why is that permission remotely relevant? Then you ask for me to find a restriction against an action I have never disputed you can take. Why? I mean what are you even trying to argue here? Shall I take your tac and demand you show proof that Space Marines aren't T4?
So we know what shoot means in English. We know the rules tell us models shoot weapons by firing shots. We know the process for firing shots and being in range is a requirement to do that. This is all from the shooting phase steps 3 & 4.
We know that to be in a CF all units MUST shoot at the initial target. So know you have to show why targeting the unit and firing no shots is still shooting the unit contra to both English and what the rules say about shooting.
Please stick to what it says in the rulebook. Here is a direct quote, hope you find it useful: BRBpg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
Do you actually have anything based to a rule from the rulebook or will you default to the English definition of shooting?
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.
Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.
Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.
So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"
I think you have just proven me right. Seriously learn some English. Or explain why in English you can shoot without having ever shot?
I pasted the rule from BRB earlier, look it up. It clearly says I am allowed not to shoot with any weapon. Now show me the rule that forbids me from choosing a target on the opposite corner out of range but clearly in line of sight?
Some people at least can admit when they are shown to have been wrong. Why can't you?
Well done you quoted a rule that allows you to choose not to fire a weapon during a shooting attack. Where have I disputed that permission? Why is that permission remotely relevant? Then you ask for me to find a restriction against an action I have never disputed you can take. Why? I mean what are you even trying to argue here? Shall I take your tac and demand you show proof that Space Marines aren't T4?
So we know what shoot means in English. We know the rules tell us models shoot weapons by firing shots. We know the process for firing shots and being in range is a requirement to do that. This is all from the shooting phase steps 3 & 4.
We know that to be in a CF all units MUST shoot at the initial target. So know you have to show why targeting the unit and firing no shots is still shooting the unit contra to both English and what the rules say about shooting.
So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No.
Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire.
I disagree with your definition as it has no bearing in this. The unit is in shooting sequence and completing it with or without firing anything means that they have done their shooting.
Then clearly mark your posts as HYWPI according to the tenets. As you admit this stance is not supported by the rules (your refusal to supply rules to support this is your admission).
Did you ever stop to think YOUR posts are HYWPI? YOU have not given any references and every single time your only response is "la la la i don't want to hear it. Quote something"
I have actually referenced the relevant rules. CF being the main one and also the shooting phase in particular step 3 which explains when shooting occurs and step 4 which sets up that shooting consists of firing shots.
no. YOU are making the complete assumption that the word "shoot" means having to actually fire a weapon. YOU are saying HYWPI.
Other people have posted rules references form BRB and CFP showing that "shooting" equates to completing the shooting sequence. You are just choosing to ignore that.
Look at the shooting phase steps 3&4 they also make the link between shooting and firing shots. However that is unnecessary as that is how English works. In English if I have fired shots I have shot. If you wish to use a different definition of having shot then you must supply the rules that give that definition. That is how rules work, you assume English definitions of words (or how can you even begin to read the rules) unless they give you a different definition of that term. Is English that difficult for you to understand? If so trying to get into a rules debate about rules written in English is not going to be productive as you won't be able to either understand the rules or the arguments made. So please go and learn some English and then come back and we may be able to have a productive conversation.
So basically YOU have no support from the actual rules. The only argument you have now is "thats how english works" and "i am right"
I think you have just proven me right. Seriously learn some English. Or explain why in English you can shoot without having ever shot?
Haha you are a fool. This happens in every thread you are in. You don't agree, don't support anything, and just ignore every single comment against you and say you are right or insult people
Naw wrote: Please stick to what it says in the rulebook. Here is a direct quote, hope you find it useful: BRBpg 31 says: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
Do you actually have anything based to a rule from the rulebook or will you default to the English definition of shooting?
So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No.
Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire.
So units never shoot? So units can never take part in a Coordinated Firepower action as that requires them to shoot. Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action. Again basic English here.
So you again state the unit only has to target the unit not shoot the unit. CF still disagrees with you as it has done this entire time.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
X078 wrote:"The Shooting Phase ...Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase." (and no you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps)
Like stated before in this thread you resolve each phase and by that it is resolved. If you are looking for a rule that states e.g. "now your unit counts as being ultimately done with the shooting phase" you will not find one because it does not exist and is not needed. If you think that it should exist then i suggest you continue posting it as HYWPI where it belongs.
1) Where does it state that you do not need to carry out each step as detailed in said steps? Sure, a plethora of roll1's To-Hit will make To-Wound rolls and later superfluous, but at least how the game uses Shoot in the rest of the rulebook has at least been satisfied.
2) If having attempted to go through a Phase means that one has performed according to that Phase, than that has HUGE consequences for the following:
-a) A model completely surrounded by Enemies and cannot move without violating the 1" rule, but not Engaged would count as Moving.
-b) A model with a Heavy , Salvo, or Ordnance Weapon, and not possessing the benefits of Relentless or Slow and Purposeful, would be limited to Snap Shot situations since they "moved" in the Movement Phase.
-c) A model was involved in the Shooting Phase who carries a Rapid Fire, Heavy, etc Weapon would not be able to Charge since it Shot it.
- And that's just off the top off my head. But hey, I guess that means my Necrons are now Psychic since they go through the Psychic Phase, right?!
Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
The Space Marine’s Ballistic Skill of 4 means that he will hit more often when shooting.
4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight.
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power.
You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Who Can Shoot?
Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:
• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.
This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs.
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.
If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it is equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots with all the same named weapons when that weapon is selected.
player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit. If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase (but it can shoot a differently named weapon it is equipped with). All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
And so on...
At no point is the verb "shoot" and its associate noun "shot" ever in a position of definition of "having completed a Shooting Attack or Shooting Sequence". So, unless you can provide a proper contextual quote to support that definition you support, I think we're done here.
So you are saying the requirement is to do steps 3 & 4, Thats HYWPI. What happens if I have a gets hot weapon and it rolls a gets hot and cannot fire? Have I completed shooting. Yes. Have I actually fired anything? No.
Again, you are not listening to the fact that MODELS are the things that shoot. UNITS do not shoot. UNITS can follow the shooting sequence, but only MODELS can actually shoot. If the rules say the UNIT must shoot at the same target, that means the UNIT must target the same unit, but does NOT actually mean it has to fire.
So units never shoot? So units can never take part in a Coordinated Firepower action as that requires them to shoot. Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action. Again basic English here.
So you again state the unit only has to target the unit not shoot the unit. CF still disagrees with you as it has done this entire time.
Reread the rules.
Model shooting = actually firing the weapon
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
So if I have 3 units of 3 models each in CF and according to CF they shoot as a single unit, by your house rule I am not allowed to choose which models shoot. I think this is now clear.
FlingitNow wrote: The Signless recheck what you said at step 3 vs your rules quote. The models don't fire 0 shots they are not allowed to shoot thus if you are counting them as having shot you have broken that very rule you quoted.
Continuing the example of my ork squad:
BRB wrote:First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.
I have selected the shoota. Check.
Now we enter the region where there is much debate
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.
Bringing all of this back to the main point about shooting. In this case the model can not shoot. The unit then has produced 0 shots from this weapon. Before you pounce upon the point that it has produced 0 shots:
A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
This means that a model that is in range (with range 36" big shoota) could elect to produce 0 shots while shooting at the target. Check.
This number (0) is applied to check off boxes 4-6 of the shooting sequence. After going through the entire process again with the sluggas:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack.
The unit has now completed its shooting attack, fulfilling its obligations towards the coordinated firepower rule. While no model has successfully shot the enemy, the unit has made its shooting attack.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
Shots are resolved AS IF ONE UNIT.
If Units A, B, & C are now considered Unit D for the duration of shooting, unit D (and thus units A, B & C) is shooting at the same target even if models from unit B choose not to fire.
Naw wrote: So if I have 3 units of 3 models each in CF and according to CF they shoot as a single unit, by your house rule I am not allowed to choose which models shoot. I think this is now clear.
Why not? You must choose at least 1 model from each unit that can fire to fire at the target as CF requires that. Normally you are free to choose not to shoot with any or all models in a units shooting attack. CF changes that as it specifies that each unit must fire shoot (at least something) at the designated target.
FlingitNow wrote: Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action.
Do you have a rules quote for this assertion?
So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
Shots are resolved AS IF ONE UNIT.
If Units A, B, & C are now considered Unit D for the duration of shooting, unit D (and thus units A, B & C) is shooting at the same target even if models from unit B choose not to fire.
But are units B & C able to fire? We know Unit A is as otherwise you would not be able to utilise CF, but are units B & C
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
FlingitNow wrote: Yes shooting is a model level action but if one of more models in a unit performs the action then the unit has performed that action.
Do you have a rules quote for this assertion?
So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Can people please keep the insults to a minimum. I'm sure we can discuss this if everyone just quotes rules and chills. Remember, it's just a game.
Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot
I don't get why you people are ignoring this...
And don't start with the Units=/=Models bullcrap, a unit is made out off models ffs.
I don't get why its so difficult, if you're not in range , you're not in range, its simple, you just need to move accordingly or use other units that are in range instead of wanting to use shenaningans to use units that cannot do anything to get the special rule.
Heck if you really can do this, then i don't see why i cannot assault more then 12", since you ignore range.
i've discussed this with the best Tau players of our area and they all agree, that while this is comicale, if a unit is out of range, it doesn't shoot, point.
The only Tau player i know that says ohter wise is the kind of guy that still wants to play Rail guns as Str10 Ap1...
Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.
Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.
Lol thanks for the insight. Please read the actual thread first. models cannot. there is no requirement for range for units to enter the shooting sequence, and thus shoot.
So units are not made out of models?...
Well thats new...
Again, you jump in at the end of a 70+ response discussion with a single line that has already been discussed. Read the thread first.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
And remember, you cannot use English definitions.
Wow so funny. Thats not the point he was making. The other guy's only argument was "learn to use english".
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I love how you keep skipping over the example provided about a unit getting a gets hot result that has been presented many times
"So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable."
Slayer le boucher wrote:And don't start with the Units=/=Models bull[REDACTED], a unit is made out off models ffs.
To quote myself:
I wrote:Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.
To use the second, more clear example. When an ork in my squad of slugga boyz loses its last wound or is otherwise removed, it counts as a casualty and is removed from the table. The unit of orks is still a unit of orks and does not have a status change. After all ork models in the unit have been removed as casualties, the models are still just casualties, but the unit counts as having been completely destroyed and is referred to as such at later points in the game. For instance:
BRB wrote:The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.
This rule clearly references a unit as an entity, not granting first blood for the first model that is removed as a casualty.
Unit shooting = targeting another unit with your unit
You know repeating this over and over doesn't make it more true? In English merely targeting someone is not shooting them. So this must be a game definition, so please quote it as you have refused to do so through out this thread.
How about you start discussing the game rules and forget the English language here. It has no bearing in this as has been shown by many, you just keep ignoring everything.
Sure. Please define the following using rules:
Whenever
selects
any
resolving
use
firepower.
And remember, you cannot use English definitions.
Wow so funny. Thats not the point he was making. The other guy's only argument was "learn to use english".
"Shooting" is not defined in the rulebook. "Shooting Attack" is. If a rule requires a Shooting Attack, we look at the rulebook to see what it means. Since "Shooting" is not a defined term, we use the english definition.
Unless you can post a rule that defines "Shooting".
notredameguy10 wrote: I love how you keep skipping over the example provided about a unit getting a gets hot result that has been presented many times
I was focusing more on responses to me. How is this ignoring your response when they were not brought up there? And there were a lot of posts between my responses to work out.
"So according to your rationale, a unit of 1 soldier with a 'heavy 1 blast gets hot gun' that rolls a 'Gets Hot!' will not count as having shot in the shooting sequence and will get to shoot again or run and/or assault later on in that turn? Is this what you are espousing?
Hardly, if you even bothered paying attention to what I said. Don't accuse someone of not acknowledging what you say when you do not consider theirs.
Gets Hot! is part of the rolling To-Hit process and its templates equivalent, and not used at any other point. As I have pointed out, actual Shooting starts with the To-Hit process, not before.
Per the rules, a unit shoots when it makes a legal shooting attack attempt and elects to go through the shooting process outlined in the shooting sequence. The only requirement is that the unit has line of sight with the target unit. The rules don't care whether or not any actual models fire a shot (those shots could never happen due to Gets Hot or players choice or some other reason like being out of range). The CF rules deal with units and not models.
The Gets Hot example proves that Fling's argument is wholly untenable."
As already quoted, range is as much a part of generating a Shooting Attack as LoS. More importantly, Shooting cannot occur unless both LoS AND range considerations have been answered.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
If "make your next Shooting Attack" demonstrates that the previous actions were also a Shooting Attack.
Spoiler:
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
I have initiated the attack. I am told that to initiate the attack:
BRB wrote:To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
However the actual requirements are:
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.
As I can meet these requirements while out of range, I have now targeted the unit
Spoiler:
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
And you have defined that models cannot shoot if they are not in range.
Spoiler:
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Units, as I have shown using leadership and casualties are separate entities than units. You are defining when a model can and cannot shoot, but the unit is still carrying out an (ineffective) shooting attack.
Spoiler:
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
A unit can be "Completely Destroyed" without any of its models having the status "Completely Destroyed" (they are casualties) as long as it meets certain requirements. Likewise a unit can have made its shooting attack with some or all of its models having failed to shoot as long as it meets the requirements outlined in step 7.
Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Spoiler:
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I found a better quote:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
Slayer le boucher wrote:And don't start with the Units=/=Models bull[REDACTED], a unit is made out off models ffs.
To quote myself:
I wrote:Model is defined as:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.
We agree that the ork model cannot shoot. However the rules do of combined firepower do not refer to models, but to units shooting.
Units are first referred to as:
In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
While this case is ambiguous and can really be used to argue either case (showing that GW really needs to rethink their rules), later cases do make cleat that there is a difference between models and units. For example in the leadership test:
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.
Here is is shown that there is a divide between what is a unit and what is a model. If units were only the models, then the rules would not specify the unit as a separate entity from the model.
Another example of this divide is in the removing casualties section:
When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Here, it is not the models that count as completely destroyed, they count as casualties. It is the unit that counts as completely destroyed. These show that a unit is a separate entity from the models from which it is made as they have their own statuses, on of which is having made a shooting attack.
To use the second, more clear example. When an ork in my squad of slugga boyz loses its last wound or is otherwise removed, it counts as a casualty and is removed from the table. The unit of orks is still a unit of orks and does not have a status change. After all ork models in the unit have been removed as casualties, the models are still just casualties, but the unit counts as having been completely destroyed and is referred to as such at later points in the game. For instance:
BRB wrote:The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.
This rule clearly references a unit as an entity, not granting first blood for the first model that is removed as a casualty.
I see what you're explaining.
Still doesn't change that to be a unit, you need models, be it 1 model or more.
Doesn't change the fact that if a unit is completly out of range, and not only some of the models, its still out of range.
Now yeah, GW could have made it easy by so many ways, but like always it isn't, if they had written it to be like " units/models, out of LoS or range cannot shoot".
Also you reference the Victory point for a destroyed unit, you're right, if there is still models in it even 1, the unit isn't destroyed, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that its out of range.
if a unit of 10 models has 4 of them in range, i agree that then CF works as intendend, but if the 10 models are out of range, so the unit as a whole is out of range, so i don't see why they should count has shooting.
Then yes you can argue that CF says that 3+ units that shoot at the same target count as one, i empashis the Count as, because it doesn't mean that they are really ONE unit, or else then you don't have 3+ units shooting, wich is kind of a loop.
So even though their rolls and wound pool is made Vs the same target at the same time they are still considered 3 separate units, since its the requirement, so why make a distenction here and not when one of them is out of range?
And i don't see where the problem is really, its just basic logic that if the guy wants to use his CF rule he must check that he is in range and have loS, if he isn't he move one of his units, or he choose another unit, since there is no limitation in the range at wich Tau units must be one from another to use it.
A guy will simply go ahead, measure, see their not in range, and choose another unit, there isn't even the beginning of an argument.
Because then by that logic, if one model in my unit as split fire for some reason, but only a flamer or something else, he can then still target another unit then his guys, and choose to assault that unit, despite the fact he din't made any rolls?
Still doesn't change that to be a unit, you need models, be it 1 model or more.
Doesn't change the fact that if a unit is completly out of range, and not only some of the models, its still out of range.
Now yeah, GW could have made it easy by so many ways, but like always it isn't, if they had written it to be like " units/models, out of LoS or range cannot shoot".
When GW starts clearing up the rules and clarifying some of their concepts, such as the mythical unit, then we shall all dance a happy jig.
For the purposes of selecting a target, the unit does not have any restrictions on whether its weapons are in range, only that it has line of sight. I think it is intended to be such that you can not do this, but due to the poor state of the rules, you can target units out of range.
Also you reference the Victory point for a destroyed unit, you're right, if there is still models in it even 1, the unit isn't destroyed, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that its out of range.
This analogy was meant to illustrate how a unit can have shot while none of the models have fired a weapon. The unit performed the necessary requirements, none of which are actually firing a weapon.
if a unit of 10 models has 4 of them in range, i agree that then CF works as intendend, but if the 10 models are out of range, so the unit as a whole is out of range, so i don't see why they should count has shooting.
They still count as shooting and CF works as the designer did not intend. They now either need to errata or FAQ this, or just go with it.
Then yes you can argue that CF says that 3+ units that shoot at the same target count as one, i empashis the Count as, because it doesn't mean that they are really ONE unit, or else then you don't have 3+ units shooting, wich is kind of a loop.
We are saved by the "as" without that, your entire army firing at one target would be a single unit with no BS bonus. Praise the "as"!
So even though their rolls and wound pool is made Vs the same target at the same time they are still considered 3 separate units, since its the requirement, so why make a distenction here and not when one of them is out of range?
I'm afraid I am confused by this point. When one of the units is out of range, it resolves its hits (None) and wounds (0) separately from the other units.
And i don't see where the problem is really, its just basic logic that if the guy wants to use his CF rule he must check that he is in range and have loS, if he isn't he move one of his units, or he choose another unit, since there is no limitation in the range at wich Tau units must be one from another to use it.
This would come up in situations where there are a limited number of units left on the board or where large terrain feature block other units from seeing the target. In these situations where only three units can see the target, it may be that one of them does not have the necessary range to hit it, but it can still use it coordinated fire.
A guy will simply go ahead, measure, see their not in range, and choose another unit, there isn't even the beginning of an argument.
This however is not about what would be logical to do. A person really wants to shoot pistols across the table, regardless of whether they can hit anything. Currently RAW, they can choose to do so, and gain benefits for doing so if they are part of this formation? detachment? (Where is this rule from?)
Because then by that logic, if one model in my unit as split fire for some reason, but only a flamer or something else, he can then still target another unit then his guys, and choose to assault that unit, despite the fact he din't made any rolls?
Let's check:
BRB wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule [Splitfire] shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Split Firing unit’s initial shooting attack.
Can I shoot a flamer at the squad? Yes I can as long as I draw line of sight. Moving to the Assault Phase:
In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase.
I targeted the unit with a flamer template, so that is another check.
A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can usually only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we’ll discover later).
As a flamer template is between 7" and 8" long, if you can find a unit in the 7" to 12" range that you really want to charge. RAW, you can split fire your flamer at them.
I'm afraid I am confused by this point. When one of the units is out of range, it resolves its hits (None) and wounds (0) separately from the other units.
And thats here thats confusing for me, no where in the book can you intentionally do 0 hits and 0 wounds.
It can happen once you've made the rolls, if you're extremly unlucky, but you still need to be in range as per page 31, see what i'm saying?
For the purposes of selecting a target, the unit does not have any restrictions on whether its weapons are in range, only that it has line of sight. I think it is intended to be such that you can not do this, but due to the poor state of the rules, you can target units out of range.
Excepte page 31 where it says that it needs LoS AND be in Range.
This would come up in situations where there are a limited number of units left on the board or where large terrain feature block other units from seeing the target. In these situations where only three units can see the target, it may be that one of them does not have the necessary range to hit it, but it can still use it coordinated fire.
Just like anyone who has special rules that gets debunked during the game, because something essential to it died/isn't in range/can't see gak, its a consequence, Your Apotichary dies, you loose FnP, your Librarian/Psyker dies, you loose his Powers and Warp charges, its not a reason to try to shenanigan the hell out of it just because its inconvinient, gak happens, thats our lot for us all.
This however is not about what would be logical to do. A person really wants to shoot pistols across the table, regardless of whether they can hit anything. Currently RAW, they can choose to do so, and gain benefits for doing so if they are part of this formation? detachment? (Where is this rule from?)
Now i'm a straigth forward guy, but if my Pistols has a range of 12" i won't try and declare that i shoot a unit thats 20" away..., since i cannot hit it.
Once this shooting attack has been resolved
Maybe i'm wrong here but for a shooting attack to be resolved, you need to be 1) in range, 2) roll to hit, 3) roll to wound, so if my flamer template is 1" away from any model how can i resolve the shooting attack?...
When GW starts clearing up the rules and clarifying some of their concepts, such as the mythical unit, then we shall all dance a happy jig.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
If "make your next Shooting Attack" demonstrates that the previous actions were also a Shooting Attack.
And that is in no way actually answering the question. A Shooting Attack contains shooting. However, that does not mean that the two are interchangeable. A Shooting Attack may not contain Shooting if no Shooting occurs. When does no shooting occur in a Shooting Atack? When a target is out of range of every chosen weapon available to the unit. It is stupid and a waste, but it is how the rulebook uses the actual words.
The problem here is that many people are considering the terms "shooting" and "shooting attack" to be equal and synonymous, where the rulebook does not actually equate them. It treat shooting as part of a shooting attack, but not the other way around.
Charistoph wrote: Now, let's go over the uses of "shoot" in the rulebook, shall we?
OK, but I'm skipping to the important bits.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
Notice the lack of any mention of range when you select a target unit.
And your point? Capacity to initiate, is not the same as doimg. As you will see later, this capacity is blocked when Range is considered.
In addition, the full explanation of this step does include range as a consideration.
I have initiated the attack. I am told that to initiate the attack:
BRB wrote:To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.
However the actual requirements are:
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit.
As I can meet these requirements while out of range, I have now targeted the unit
Again, initiating the shooting attack step is not the same as shooting, as I have already shown. In order for something to shoot, it must check off the Line of Sight question AND check off the Range question. If either of these fail, literally no shooting occurs. The rulebook establishes this point specifically when asking the question of "Who Can Fire?"
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
And you have defined that models cannot shoot if they are not in range.
And Weapons, too. And if the Weapons and Models do not shoot, can you establish in writing that the Unit still shoots, not initiate a Shooting Attack, actually "shoot"?
Check Range
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.
Again note that it is models that are armed with a weapon, not units.
And units are armed with models. Again, this is about defining the term, "Shooting".
Units, as I have shown using leadership and casualties are separate entities than units. You are defining when a model can and cannot shoot, but the unit is still carrying out an (ineffective) shooting attack.
And again, "shooting" and "shooting attack" are not the same thing as established by the use of the terms in the rulebook. In order to shoot, the target must establish a form of Line of Sight, and must be in range of the weapon used. There has been nothing presented to provide another requisites of shooting.
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
A unit can be "Completely Destroyed" without any of its models having the status "Completely Destroyed" (they are casualties) as long as it meets certain requirements. Likewise a unit can have made its shooting attack with some or all of its models having failed to shoot as long as it meets the requirements outlined in step 7.
Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Again, attempting to use the confusion of terms as reasons for ignoring it. Shooting does not involve Steps 1-7, it only involves 1-4, and only actually occurs when the equivalent of the To-Hit rolls start processing. If no single Weapon can establish LOS or Range, literally no shooting occurs. Nothing presented so far has properly challenged this definition.
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
So any model that is found to be not in range cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
And again, this is about defining "shooting". So from the use, "Shooting" is when a Weapon is used to generate a Shooting Attack and the equivalent of rolling To-Hit by the Weapon is the minimum level of interaction required to fulfill the definition.
So in this case, if a unit is out of range with all of its Weapons, it cannot shoot any more than if Line of Sight could not be established.
I found a better quote:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
Even if you do not get to take steps 4-6 (you do, but I won't bother to argue this because I'm in a lecture), you still get to take step 7. If I have my unit of boyz shooting at a target at 15" range and I declare the slugga boyz models (range 12") want to try and shoot first. They resolve this be generating 0 shots. My shooting phase with the unit does not suddenly end because I generated no hit, instead I then move on to step 7 of the shooting sequence where I have the option to nominate the shoota nob model (range 24") to try and shoot. I still take step 7 of this sequence which has the rule:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Here is the bit that says that the previous actions constitute a shooting attack.
As for the interchangeability of the terms:
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
This defines shooting as a process that follows the shooting sequence
make your next shooting attack,
This instance now refers to the shooting sequence, which it calls a shooting attack. To shoot is to make a shooting attack in Warhammer 40k.
I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
The shooting process, which is the process by which you shoot, is defined as the seven steps of the shooting sequence. The seven steps of the shooting sequence allow a unit to shoot at another unit even if they are not in range.
And still ignoring the simple fact listed in Step 3: if a model/weapon are out of range, they do not shoot. Steps 1-7 are still the process, but if you never reach Step 4, no actual shooting has occurred as established by the rulebook's use.
Try to argue with me all you want, I'm just using the rulebook's definition.
Even if you do not get to take steps 4-6 (you do, but I won't bother to argue this because I'm in a lecture), you still get to take step 7. If I have my unit of boyz shooting at a target at 15" range and I declare the slugga boyz models (range 12") want to try and shoot first. They resolve this be generating 0 shots. My shooting phase with the unit does not suddenly end because I generated no hit, instead I then move on to step 7 of the shooting sequence where I have the option to nominate the shoota nob model (range 24") to try and shoot. I still take step 7 of this sequence which has the rule:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Here is the bit that says that the previous actions constitute a shooting attack.
Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below.
This defines shooting as a process that follows the shooting sequence.
make your next shooting attack,
This instance now refers to the shooting sequence, which it calls a shooting attack. To shoot is to make a shooting attack in Warhammer 40k.
It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
the Signless wrote: I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
As I have state before, there are differences between the model performing an action and the unit performing an action. The unit is considered to have made a shooting attack even if there are no hits. This is also seen in cases like how it is the unit that is "Completely Destroyed" while the models are "casualties, except in this case the unit has performed a "shooting attack" even if no model has fired.
Charistoph wrote: It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
Why is everything before this point not important? The unit is already making a shooting attack as demonstrated in step 7, a term which I have shown that the rules use interchangeably with shoot. The ability of any one model to actually hit the target does not affect the ability of the unit.
Charistoph wrote: Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
Okay, thank you for the clarification. Where does the rule book say that to hit rolls must be made for the unit to count as shooting at the enemy unit? Looking through the to hit section, I see no such section where it declares "Now the units counts as having shot" or "this is the shooting part of the shooting attack". If you can provide a quote from a rule book showing where this divide between attempting a shooting attack and shooting occurs, then I will be happy to reconsider the evidence.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Pg 30 in BRB (at least my version) defines the shooting process. There are 7 steps in sequence and the BRB says: The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.
That is pretty clear, isn't it? The only way to complete a shooting attack with a unit is to go throuhg the whole shooting sequence. The individual steps were discussed many times with rules quotes, but let's go at it one more time below.
Charistoph wrote:3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Charistoph wrote:And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
I thought we have many times? See my quote above. Where is your definition of the unit having shot as per the rulebook?
Charistoph wrote:Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Charistoph wrote:Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Pg 30 in the BRB, check it out. By completing the shooting sequence the unit has shot. We have given a couple of examples where you, FlingitNow and some others try to break the shooting sequence:
Example A: A unit of five Tacticals (step 1) with a plasma cannon select a target for shooting (step 2). Plasma cannon is chosen and Range is checked (step 3), just the one weapon in the weapon group is fired. Roll to hit (step 4) causes Gets hot result. I refuse to process any more weapons and don't finish the shooting sequence.
By your reading the unit is now free to i) run, ii) shoot again, even with the plasma cannon, iii) charge an enemy.
Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
Have fun with the way you don't follow the written rule. In the 2nd example we could even have some nice signature systems in the unit for multiple uses. Care to review your own misreading of the rule finally?
Naw wrote: Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
This is a pretty good example, but it's missing one detail: you don't get the +1 BS bonus with the missile pods. Because you have not yet rolled to hit with models from 3+ units you have not "fired" and have not met the requirement of 3+ units adding their "firepower".
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs.
That is your own misinterpretation of the events. By nominating a unit to shoot, we have started the shooting attack. At the end of the process it doesn't matter if we have not fired a single weapon, not killed anyone, not rolled any rolls to hit (flamers anyone?) etc. It isn't a requirement. It's only your opinion that it should be so.
Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting.
I'm so happy about these rules quotes. How did I miss that in my copy of the rulebook! [/sarcasm]
You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot
Yes, as has been laid out in the shooting sequence, this is step 3. However we are also told that we do not have to fire a single weapon if we don't want to and still go through the shooting sequence to step 7 where we are told to choose another weapon if we want to and go through steps 3-6 again.
These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire".
Certainly you can read through the whole shooting sequence steps to understand the process of shooting? I hope you understand the terminology there, what a process means?
Charistoph wrote:
the Signless wrote:I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated.
I'm quite sure my rulebook does not say "attempt To Hit must be initiated".
Pg 30 The Shooting Sequence: 3. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target. Pg 30 Select a Weapon: All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon. Pg 31 under same heading: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. Pg 31 Check Range: A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot. Pg 32 Roll To Hit: Nah, nothing like what you describe above.
If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
That is incorrect. It is not written anywhere in the rules. If you think it does, can you please show the rule? You cannot, because it is not there. I gave a couple of examples to which I expect entertaining answers from you and some other posters.
Naw wrote: Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
This is a pretty good example, but it's missing one detail: you don't get the +1 BS bonus with the missile pods. Because you have not yet rolled to hit with models from 3+ units you have not "fired" and have not met the requirement of 3+ units adding their "firepower".
I'll give you that, the rule is not very obvious. However didn't you also argue that the +1BS is gained the moment three or more units combine their firepower. I read it to say that the moment I declare that 3+ units combine, CF triggers and also the +1BS to all who shoot as there are enough units participating. Due to the weapon groups I cannot say if all of them get to shoot. If we consider that the only requirement is for 3+ units to be said to Coordinate their firepower, then the rule works in all situations.
In any case, I'd like to get some feedback from FlingitNow, Happyjew, Charistoph & others on these examples.
Naw wrote: I'll give you that, the rule is not very obvious. However didn't you also argue that the +1BS is gained the moment three or more units combine their firepower. I read it to say that the moment I declare that 3+ units combine, CF triggers and also the +1BS to all who shoot as there are enough units participating. Due to the weapon groups I cannot say if all of them get to shoot. If we consider that the only requirement is for 3+ units to be said to Coordinate their firepower, then the rule works in all situations.
What I mean is that, under the assumption that you have to be in range with 3+ units and able to roll dice (or even actually roll the dice), you won't get the +1 BS. You aren't officially in range until you measure in step 3 of the shooting sequence, and in your example only the missile pod unit is officially in range. So 3+ units haven't contributed yet, and you don't get the BS bonus for the missile pod shots.
Of course having the bonus apply as soon as 3+ units are committed to the CF attack, regardless of whether they are able to fire weapons or choose to do so, fixes this problem. And that's the whole point of what I'm saying, it's pretty clear evidence that the rule must work that way.
Some very good conclusive posts by notredameguy10, Naw, Peregrine, col_impact the Signless and others. Pretty much sums up the discussion, and i hope that the OP got his answer which is yes you can combine your units for the CF +1BS bonus.
So I ask again, where does the rulebook define "Shooting"? Not "Shooting Attack" not "Shooting Sequence", but "Shooting".
So far the only thing I've seen defined by the rulebook is "Shooting Attack" and "Shooting Sequence", but no one has posted anything that the rulebook equates "Shooting" with "Shooting Attack" or "Shooting Sequence".
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs. It never actually happens. If the weapon is out of range, it does not shoot, period. No matter how you try to disguise the situation, this does not change. Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting. You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot. These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire". There are some others, but those are reliant on the specific Weapon Types and not needed for the basic concepts we are discussing.
As I have state before, there are differences between the model performing an action and the unit performing an action. The unit is considered to have made a shooting attack even if there are no hits. This is also seen in cases like how it is the unit that is "Completely Destroyed" while the models are "casualties, except in this case the unit has performed a "shooting attack" even if no model has fired.
And again, a "Shooting Attack" and "Shooting" are used in separate ways in the rulebook, much like deployment and deploying. At no point is the unit ever considered to be shooting by having completed a Shooting Sequence or Shooting Attack without a single weapon firing. Still no quoted associations that a Shooting Attack is Shooting. It contains Shooting, but they are not synonymous in their use in the rulebook.
the Signless wrote:
Charistoph wrote: It is the process, but the actual act of shooting can be stopped as pointed out in determining Who Can Fire. Anything before attempting To Hit is just the start up to shooting and establishing the parameters to start the process. If the requirements are not fulfilled, shooting does not occur, as I have already pointed out. Ignoring the rules set up in Who Can Fire is the same as ignoring everything else.
Why is everything before this point not important? The unit is already making a shooting attack as demonstrated in step 7, a term which I have shown that the rules use interchangeably with shoot. The ability of any one model to actually hit the target does not affect the ability of the unit.
Charistoph wrote: Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated. If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
Okay, thank you for the clarification. Where does the rule book say that to hit rolls must be made for the unit to count as shooting at the enemy unit? Looking through the to hit section, I see no such section where it declares "Now the units counts as having shot" or "this is the shooting part of the shooting attack". If you can provide a quote from a rule book showing where this divide between attempting a shooting attack and shooting occurs, then I will be happy to reconsider the evidence.
Where does it say targeting or starting a Shooting Attack counts as shooting for anything? The simple fact is that if no model or weapon in a unit is in range, you do not even attempt to roll To-Hit or place templates. To-Hit rolls or placing templates are the step right after you finalize if the weapon is in range. If you cannot even do this one step of attempting to hit the target, it means that shooting has failed to occur.
_ghost_ wrote:A unit counts a has shot when said unit went through the shooting attack seqcuence. thats all
Still waiting on a quote that says this. Because your misrepresentations of the following does not state anything to support your position.
BRB wrote:Repeat this process [steps 1-7] until you have selected and resolved attacks from all the weapons in the firing unit. If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
As I can repeat this process (steps 1-7) without actually being in range for anything, I can make a shooting attack.
And the statement that attempting a Shooting Attack counts as Shooting is... where?
Pg 30 in BRB (at least my version) defines the shooting process. There are 7 steps in sequence and the BRB says: The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.Once you've completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence.
That is pretty clear, isn't it? The only way to complete a shooting attack with a unit is to go throuhg the whole shooting sequence. The individual steps were discussed many times with rules quotes, but let's go at it one more time below.
Nope. Not clear at all. It is the sequence, but in order to fulfill the statement of shooting within that sequence, the models must shoot the Weapons. If a Multimelta is out of range when the rest of a Tactical Squad shot Pistols at it, would you still consider the unit ineligible to Charge? I would not because the Multimelta was not shot nor could it shoot.
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote:3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:Notice how it is stated that models fire the weapons. It is the models that cannot target the enemy unit, not your unit.
Charistoph wrote:And you are missing the point of the example. Weapons also listed as Shooting as well. The point was to define what "Shooting" is when used by the rulebook.
I thought we have many times? See my quote above. Where is your definition of the unit having shot as per the rulebook?
You have not. You have ignored every actual use of the verb "shooting". You have only paid attention to it as an adjective. And the CF rule only uses the verb, not the adjective. You do know the difference between a verb and adjective, correct?
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote:Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot.
the Signless wrote:So a model that is out of line of sight cannot shoot. This has no effect on the unit as a whole.
Charistoph wrote:Out of Range is also a consideration, and if out of range, no Shooting happens. No shooting, the unit did not shoot, either.
Pg 30 in the BRB, check it out. By completing the shooting sequence the unit has shot. We have given a couple of examples where you, FlingitNow and some others try to break the shooting sequence:
Example A: A unit of five Tacticals (step 1) with a plasma cannon select a target for shooting (step 2). Plasma cannon is chosen and Range is checked (step 3), just the one weapon in the weapon group is fired. Roll to hit (step 4) causes Gets hot result. I refuse to process any more weapons and don't finish the shooting sequence.
By your reading the unit is now free to i) run, ii) shoot again, even with the plasma cannon, iii) charge an enemy.
And here's your award for not listening.
By rolling Gets Hot!, a weapon has already established that it is not out of Range. If it was out of range, it could not shoot, therefore it could not roll a Gets Hot! result. If all weapons are not in range, the unit has not shot. If it has not shot, then it IS free to run or shoot at a different target at that point.
I already addressed how Gets Hot! interacts with the shooting sequence. Gets Hot! is part of the To Hit process, and in the case of the Plasma Cannon rolls for every shot instead of relying on the To-Hit roll. If Out of Range, there are no shots to roll Gets Hot! for.
Naw wrote:Example B: I have three units of Crisis suits. For an argument's sake let's say they are in range with target unit with all of their weapons. Unit A (step 1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (step 2), CF is triggered and units B (2x3 plasma rifles) and C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Now we have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit. Then I choose weapon group and select missile pods and check the range, all are in range, excellent (step 3). I move to the next step in the shooting sequence and roll to hit (step 4) with +1BS and 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I move to the next step and roll to wound (step 5), causing 10 wounds to the target unit. Then we move to allocating wounds and removing casualties (step 6), either wiping out the unit or leaving one or two models alive, doesn't matter with the example. Next step tells us to select another weapon (step 7) but as I am allowed not to fier any weapons if I don't want to, I stop there.
By your reading as the now separate units B and C have not shot at all, they are free to i) run, ii) go through the shooting sequence again and select new targets, iii) join another CF to ensure destruction
Have fun with the way you don't follow the written rule. In the 2nd example we could even have some nice signature systems in the unit for multiple uses. Care to review your own misreading of the rule finally?
Actually, you would have broken the CF rule by not including the other two unit's shooting, but still giving the BS boost to the initial shooter. It would be the same as firing the Ordnance Weapon of a Vehicle last, but not Snap Firing the rest of the Weapons. And that would be the owner's fault because they fired the longest ranged weapons first.
Naw wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Again ignoring the simple facts. Even going to Step 7 by skipping over Steps 4-6, still Shooting has not occurred according to the use of "shooting" by the rulebook in question. The action in question never occurs.
That is your own misinterpretation of the events. By nominating a unit to shoot, we have started the shooting attack. At the end of the process it doesn't matter if we have not fired a single weapon, not killed anyone, not rolled any rolls to hit (flamers anyone?) etc. It isn't a requirement. It's only your opinion that it should be so.
Simply initiating a Shooting Attack is insufficient to actually be considered shooting.
I'm so happy about these rules quotes. How did I miss that in my copy of the rulebook! [/sarcasm]
You must establish a form of Line of Sight, and the weapon being used must be in Range to actually shoot
Yes, as has been laid out in the shooting sequence, this is step 3. However we are also told that we do not have to fire a single weapon if we don't want to and still go through the shooting sequence to step 7 where we are told to choose another weapon if we want to and go through steps 3-6 again.
These are the base limits established when determining "Who Can Fire".
Certainly you can read through the whole shooting sequence steps to understand the process of shooting? I hope you understand the terminology there, what a process means?
Charistoph wrote:
the Signless wrote:I do not see where it defines "shooting" as having hit the enemy unit.
Did I say anything about hitting the enemy unit? No, simply the attempt To Hit must be initiated.
I'm quite sure my rulebook does not say "attempt To Hit must be initiated".
Pg 30 The Shooting Sequence: 3. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target. Pg 30 Select a Weapon: All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon. Pg 31 under same heading: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. Pg 31 Check Range: A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot. Pg 32 Roll To Hit: Nah, nothing like what you describe above.
Are you sure you can tell the difference between the actual action and the process surrounding the action? Apparently not.
Naw wrote:
If Out of Range or Line of Sight cannot be established (or in the case of some weapons, ignored), shooting literally does not occur and no attempt To-Hit is made.
That is incorrect. It is not written anywhere in the rules. If you think it does, can you please show the rule? You cannot, because it is not there. I gave a couple of examples to which I expect entertaining answers from you and some other posters.
I have under Who can Fire, why do you not listen? If a model is out of range, it cannot shoot. If it cannot establish a form of Line of Sight, it cannot shoot. It says it right there in literal terms. And this is the last thing before rolling To-Hit or the equivalent for the Weapon. Very simple extrapolation of the process.
_ghost_ wrote:the Rulebook define shooting unitwise as the known shooting attack.
But it also defines shoting model wise as the act to resolve the dice for hiting and so on.
No, it does not. It states that the unit makes a shooting attack, which then goes on to state things like "nominate a unit TO shoot", and so on. It is never stated that a unit is considered shooting even if no models shoot, nor anything of the equivalent.
By rolling Gets Hot!, a weapon has already established that it is not out of Range. If it was out of range, it could not shoot, therefore it could not roll a Gets Hot! result. If all weapons are not in range, the unit has not shot. If it has not shot, then it IS free to run or shoot at a different target at that point.
I already addressed how Gets Hot! interacts with the shooting sequence. Gets Hot! is part of the To Hit process, and in the case of the Plasma Cannon rolls for every shot instead of relying on the To-Hit roll. If Out of Range, there are no shots to roll Gets Hot! for.
You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
Your argument is premised on the assumption that for a unit to shoot at least one model must fire a shot. However, that premise is no where stated in the rules and it leads to situations (as exemplified in the Gets Hot! example) where the rules don't work. You are not permitted to add your made-up premises to the rules and call it RAW. Label your argument HYWPI since you are adding home-brewed rules that are simply not in the BRB.
For a unit to shoot, all that the rules require is that the unit has line of sight with a target unit and that the unit elect to go through the shooting sequence. The rules do not care how many models actually fire shots in the unit. CF only cares if the unit shoots which it does when it legally attempts a shooting attack and CF does not care if any of the models in the unit actually fire shots. The models could be in the situation of not firing shots due to player choice, the gets hot mechanic, or being out of range. Once the unit goes through the shooting process, the unit will not be available to shoot again, having expended its shooting by legally attempting a shooting attack.
col_impact wrote: You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
And even then, you still have not countered the base premise then, either. If it is Out of Range, it still does not roll Gets Hot!
col_impact wrote: Your argument is premised on the assumption that for a unit to shoot at least one model must fire a shot. However, that premise is no where stated in the rules and it leads to situations (as exemplified in the Gets Hot! example) where the rules don't work. You are not permitted to add your made-up premises to the rules and call it RAW. Label your argument HYWPI since you are adding home-brewed rules that are simply not in the BRB.
I cannot mark HYWPI because the use of the word "shoot" does not match anything else than I have stated. The word "shoot" is not used in any other way, yet you would insist that we use another definition without proper context nor without actual definitions stating otherwise. I have stated as such numerous times that this is how the rulebook uses the word "shoot", but I have not actually stated it has been actually defined in the rulebook. Again, you and others choose not to listen or understand the paradigm I present, but instead fold your paradigm over my words to try and strawman them down.
col_impact wrote: For a unit to shoot, all that the rules require is that the unit has line of sight with a target unit and that the unit elect to go through the shooting sequence. The rules do not care how many models actually fire shots in the unit. CF only cares if the unit shoots which it does when it legally attempts a shooting attack and CF does not care if any of the models in the unit actually fire shots. The models could be in the situation of not firing shots due to player choice, the gets hot mechanic, or being out of range. Once the unit goes through the shooting process, the unit will not be available to shoot again, having expended its shooting by legally attempting a shooting attack.
Again, QUOTE the definition or the rules if you are so certain. Nine pages, and while other associated terms have been defined or presented, none has been presented to specifically differentiate a unit's shooting from that established when used by its models or its models' weapons. You have claimed no definition of "shooting" exists, and yet seek to apply another definition to it, counter to how it is used.
col_impact wrote: You fail completely at seeing how Gets Hot! makes your argument wholly untenable.
Spoiler:
Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot
immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the
weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single
Wound
Your argument is that a model must have fired a shot for a unit to be considered shooting. Gets Hot! makes it so that the firing never happens and a shot has not been fired. According to your argument, the unit of 1 marine with a heavy 1 blast gets hot weapon would be able to shoot again, run, and/or assault. Your argument allows a model to shoot, run, or assault after a Gets Hot! result since you are equating shooting with shots fired and Gets Hot! declares the shot as not being fired.
And even then, you still have not countered the base premise then, either. If it is Out of Range, it still does not roll Gets Hot!
Incorrect! My strict reading of the rules produces wholly consistent results. A unit comprised entirely of models that are out of range (or made to be out of range by another unit in CF wiping out all enemy models in range) can and will make a legal shooting attack in which no models fire any shots. Per the rules the units ability to shoot is expended and it cannot run or assault. This is because a units ability to attempt a legal shooting attack only requires line-of-sight.
Your faulty reasoning allows a model to shoot after rolling a Gets Hot result.
Your faulty reasoning also allows a scenario where 3 units join together in CF and if the first unit is able to totally obliterate the foe, the 2nd and 3rd units do not count as shooting and are then available to then shoot or run or join another CF. I guess CF no longer has to worry about overkill, LOL.
There is nothing in the rules that indicate for a unit to count as shooting that at least one model must have fired a shot.
Once a unit makes a legal shooting attack attempt and runs through the shooting process as defined in the shooting sequence, the unit shoots and will have expended its capability to shoot. For units, shooting is completing steps 1 through 7 of the Shooting Sequence. For units, shooting is simply attempting a legal shooting attack.
When the rules reference that 'you can choose any order for your units to shoot' it means you can choose any order for your unit to attempt its collective shooting attack in relation to your other units. "Shoot" here refers to collective shooting, ie shooting means something different at the unit level than at the model level. Models fire shots. Units don't fire shots, but shoot in the sense of making a collective shooting attack. Units shoot by processing their shooting, by queueing up shooting attacks and running through the shooting sequence. Shooting is defined differently for units than for models. At the unit level we are dealing with a collective. The CF rule only cares about the unit level definition and whether or not the unit can legally shoot, which per the rules we can as long as we have line of sight.
Spoiler:
THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer
40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting
phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order
for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is
explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting
sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have
completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack,
carry on to the Assault phase.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Spoiler:
If a unit has no
differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose
another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
col_impact wrote: Incorrect! My strict reading of the rules produces wholly consistent results.
How's your chest after beating it?
But still correct. If the Weapon is out of Range, not Shooting is done, no shots are fired. No shots fired, and so no Gets Hot! roll. You are answering like a politician, providing the answer you want without addressing the question asked.
col_impact wrote: A unit comprised entirely of models that are out of range (or made to be out of range by another unit in CF wiping out all enemy models in range) can and will make a legal shooting attack in which no models fire any shots. Per the rules the units ability to shoot is expended and it cannot run or assault. This is because a units ability to attempt a legal shooting attack only requires line-of-sight.
And if a Shooting Attack was all that was required by CF, this would have been done page 1 or page 2. But a shooting attack is not the qualification, shooting is. And if out of range, no actual shooting occurs.
Can you demonstrate how shooting occurs without answering Line of Sight or Range? Shooting Attacks, sure, but then, they have yet to be classified as the same thing by the rules nor in the word's usage by the rulebook.
col_impact wrote: Your faulty reasoning allows a model to shoot after rolling a Gets Hot result.
I have never stated that nor supported that.
col_impact wrote: Your faulty reasoning also allows a scenario where 3 units join together in CF and if the first unit is able to totally obliterate the foe, the 2nd and 3rd units do not count as shooting and are then available to then shoot or run or join another CF. I guess CF no longer has to worry about overkill, LOL.
Maybe, maybe not. Odds are as good as the units carrying the same weapons at least. But you still have yet to prove your position properly with any solidity at all.
col_impact wrote: There is nothing in the rules that indicate for a unit to count as shooting that at least one model must have fired a shot.
There is nothing to indicate that it is not, either. And considering how the verb is used, my position actually carries the support of the book. You have presented nothing that doesn't require disassociating the word from its type.
col_impact wrote: Once a unit makes a legal shooting attack attempt and runs through the shooting process as defined in the shooting sequence, the unit shoots and will have expended its capability to shoot. For units, shooting is completing steps 1 through 7 of the Shooting Sequence. For units, shooting is simply attempting a legal shooting attack.
And what happens if the unit never completes Step 3 because Who Can Fire is failed for the entire unit the first time around and cannot move to Step 4? We are not told to just stop. We are not told to just skip to Step 7 or move on. We are already told to check range at Step 2 when we choose the unit. Only someone deliberately sabotaging their own efforts would set themselves up so they cannot every attempt Step 4, and that is a situation the rulebook does not address.
col_impact wrote: When the rules reference that 'you can choose any order for your units to shoot' it means you can choose any order for your unit to attempt its collective shooting attack in relation to your other units. "Shoot" here refers to collective shooting, ie shooting means something different at the unit level than at the model level. Models fire shots. Units don't fire shots, but shoot in the sense of making a collective shooting attack. Units shoot by processing their shooting, by queueing up shooting attacks and running through the shooting sequence. Shooting is defined differently for units than for models. At the unit level we are dealing with a collective. The CF rule only cares about the unit level definition and whether or not the unit can legally shoot, which per the rules we can as long as we have line of sight.
And you are confusing the future tense with the present tense. "You can choose any order for your units TO shoot", is a future tense, not a present one. The useage in step 3 denies the ability to use a present tense version. Decision to initiate is not the same as carrying it out if you fail to meet the requisite requirements.
A unit completely out of range from its chosen target with any weapon cannot shoot any of its weapons. A unit that cannot establish a form of Line of Sight to its chosen target with any weapon cannot shoot any of its weapons.
THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units[color=green] to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
[/color]The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see. (In the larger text of this step, range is also checked.)
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines
what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing
unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target
unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has
one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed
as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to
allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected
weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that
have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Spoiler:
If a unit has no
differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose
another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.
Your repetition of the rules while ignoring their entire language does not mean you have an actual case.
The rules I quoted indicate 2 separate uses of 'shoot.' 'Shoot' occurs both with unit and with model. Charistophe, et al, are wrongly trying to apply the 'individuated' model definition to the 'collective' unit usage.
'To Shoot'
for units - to make a collective shooting attack, ie in game terms to step through the shooting sequence, to resolve all the shots from the collective [unit]
for models - to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon
At the unit level then, 'shoot' refers to dealing with the portion of the game that involves shooting (the shooting sequence) - when your unit of models collectively resolves its shots at a target unit of enemy models. This is wholly consistent with English semantic usage of 'shoot: to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting' . We are not dealing with an individual instance of firing a shot with a single weapon from one individual model to another individual model but shooting en masse from a collective of models with a plethora of weapons to another collective of models.
Examples:
My raiders shoot at your space elves. (Collectively resolve all the shots from my [unit of] raiders various weapons at your space elves unit)
My raider shoots his pistol at your space elf (My [individual] raider [model] fires a shot with his single equipped pistol at your space elf [model]
Consider:
1) "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next."
Incorrect: You can choose any order for your units to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
Correct: You can choose any order for your units to make their collective shooting attacks, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
Correct: You can choose any order for your units to collectively resolve their shots, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move
on to the next.
2) "Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see."
Incorrect: Choose a Target. The unit can fire a shot with a single shooting weapon at an enemy unit that it can see.
Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can make a collective shooting attack at an enemy unit that it can see.
Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can collectively resolve its shots at an enemy unit that it can see.
3) "Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit."
Incorrect: Every model that wishes to make a collective shooting attack must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit.
Correct: Every model that wishes to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit.
This isn't rocket science. The game implements the notion of 'shooting' differently when dealing with collective units versus individual models.
Collective - My group of As with its bunches of shooty things shoots at your horde of Bs. [resolve a shooting attack en masse at your bunch of stuff]
Individual - My individual A shoots his gun at your B. [fire a shot with a single weapon]
And now for the bonus question . . . which usage of 'shoot' does Coordinated Fire refer to? Hint: collective!
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
Incorrect:
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still fire a shot with a single weapon can add their fire power to the attack. These units must fire a shot with a single weapon at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
Correct:
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still make a collective shooting attack can add their fire power to the attack. These units must resolve their collective shots at the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill
col_impact wrote: The rules I quoted indicate 2 separate uses of 'shoot.' 'Shoot' occurs both with unit and with model. Charistophe, et al, are wrongly trying to apply the 'individuated' model definition to the 'collective' unit usage.
More than that for the first quote, and only by the synonym "firing" in the second. I even highlighted them in green for you in the first when I quoted you. Shall i do so again?
for units - to make a collective shooting attack, ie in game terms to step through the shooting sequence, to resolve all the shots from the collective [unit] for models - to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon
Either misquoting or misrepresenting does not a proper definition make. The definition of "shooting" for units is never actually defined as making a collective shooting attack. There is no distinciton of separation mentioned at all between when a weapon, model, or unit shoots. The only time a unit is referenced is only when the term "shooting" is used as an adjective, not as a verb. Reread your rules quotes and you will see this. Then reread the sections in question as they break it down, and you will see it even more so.
col_impact wrote: At the unit level then, 'shoot' refers to dealing with the portion of the game that involves shooting (the shooting sequence) - when your unit of models collectively resolves its shots at a target unit of enemy models. This is wholly consistent with English semantic usage of 'shoot: to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting' . We are not dealing with an individual instance of firing a shot with a single weapon from one individual model to another individual model but shooting en masse from a collective of models with a plethora of weapons to another collective of models.
No such distinction is made in anything you have quoted so far. A Shooting Attack is on the unit level, but even then, we can see that if poorly planned and ignoring the information in the explanation of Step 2, that no actual "shooting" occurs if you follow the rules of the process and you are out of range, not established Line of Sight, or even several other lost opportunities (such as firing Blast at an Invisible unit).
My raiders shoot at your space elves. (Collectively resolve all the shots from my [unit of] raiders various weapons at your space elves unit) My raider shoots his pistol at your space elf (My [individual] raider [model] fires a shot with his single equipped pistol at your space elf [model]
In both cases, in order for shooting to occur, they must have answered any Line of Sight and Range restrictions in order to shoot. Just because you say they are shooting, doesn't mean they are until the attempt to Hit has been attempted. Once you reach the To-Hit point of the Shooting Sequence, any question of being able to Shoot has generally been answered.
1) "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you moveon to the next."
Incorrect: You can choose any order for your units to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next. Correct: You can choose any order for your units to make their collective shooting attacks, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next. Correct: You can choose any order for your units to collectively resolve their shots, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.
Consider: You are really crappy at copy and pasting from PDFs. Your lack of correction makes for some very disjointed reading. Consider: Your Incorrect statement actually doesn't apply in a couple situations where a unit can Shoot and Run. But I have not espoused it, either.
col_impact wrote: 2) "Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see."
Incorrect: Choose a Target. The unit can fire a shot with a single shooting weapon at an enemy unit that it can see. Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can make a collective shooting attack at an enemy unit that it can see. Correct: Choose a Target. The unit can collectively resolve its shots at an enemy unit that it can see.
Consider: This simple explanation of the outlined step misses out on the full aspect of the rules, actually. It also grants one level of permission, but it is not the only gate of shooting in the shooting sequence. The full read is:
Spoiler:
CHOOSE A TARGET Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.
See how the full read of the step actually provides definition with the "shoot" being in a future tense, not a current one?
col_impact wrote: 3) "Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit."
Incorrect: Every model that wishes to make a collective shooting attack must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Correct: Every model that wishes to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. [/spoiler]
Consider: You are the one confusing a whole process with a single verb/action, not me. I'm not the one calling a "shooting attack" as "shooting".
col_impact wrote: This isn't rocket science. The game implements the notion of 'shooting' differently when dealing with collective units versus individual models. Collective - My group of As with its bunches of shooty things shoots at your horde of Bs. [resolve a shooting attack en masse at your bunch of stuff] Individual - My individual A shoots his gun at your B. [fire a shot with a single weapon]
You are correct that this is not rocket science. That is mathematics, a pure language. This is semantics of the English Language which has all the purity of a crib house whore who ambushes other languages in dark allies to search for new words and concepts.
col_impact wrote: And now for the bonus question . . . which usage of 'shoot' does Coordinated Fire refer to? Hint: collective!
Here's a bonus answer, your long misconsiderations and misrepresentations have not provided any actual evidence that the verb "shoot" is any different between unit, weapon, and model. While a unit initiates a Shooting Attack using the Shooting Sequence, the actual shooting follows restrictions as noted on Weapon and Model. You keep trying to use "shooting attack" and "shooting" as being synonymous, yet have provided no quotes to support this case other than your opinion and belief.
Seems as though loop holes are being attempted by these players. I sure hope not all players try as hard as these to use loop holes :/ if they do, stricter itc voting a for tau should be put in place.
Ceaser wrote: Seems as though loop holes are being attempted by these players. I sure hope not all players try as hard as these to use loop holes :/ if they do, stricter itc voting a for tau should be put in place.
ITC only covers a small number of games around the world. Relying on them for clarity is not always possible or even desired in some locales. Remember, they are just a House Rules group (albeit a large and influential one), and some of their judgements are not always kindly looked upon by everyone.
Ceaser wrote: Seems as though loop holes are being attempted by these players. I sure hope not all players try as hard as these to use loop holes :/ if they do, stricter itc voting a for tau should be put in place.
ITC only covers a small number of games around the world. Relying on them for clarity is not always possible or even desired in some locales. Remember, they are just a House Rules group (albeit a large and influential one), and some of their judgements are not always kindly looked upon by everyone.
True, but in a competitive scene with itc ruling, they can't argue their loop holes.
Here's a bonus answer, your long misconsiderations and misrepresentations have not provided any actual evidence that the verb "shoot" is any different between unit, weapon, and model. While a unit initiates a Shooting Attack using the Shooting Sequence, the actual shooting follows restrictions as noted on Weapon and Model. You keep trying to use "shooting attack" and "shooting" as being synonymous, yet have provided no quotes to support this case other than your opinion and belief.
Good. I see that you have doubled down on your argument and want to maintain that the BRB uses 'shoot' in the same way for unit as well as for model. So you insist that 'shoot' always refers to an individual firing of a shot by a single weapon.
So to clarify you will interpret this statement . . .
"The unit of orks shoots the unit of centaurs" as
Spoiler:
"The unit of orks fires a shot with a single weapon at the unit of centaurs."
and you will not interpret it this way . . .
Spoiler:
"The unit of orks collectively resolves all of its shots with all of its shootings weapons against the units of centaurs"
The astute onlooker will have already noticed that your simple definition of 'shoot' runs afoul of the rules and the way the game actually plays out. When a unit shoots another unit it is a multi-step process involving many shots from many models and often more than one weapon and definitely not a singular shot from a single weapon. Any player of 40k knows units involve often complex gathering of models and when a unit 'shoots' another unit it almost never involves simply a shot with a single weapon. In fact when a unit 'shoots' another unit, the game must march through an array of models with an array of weapons, with each model firing shots with sometimes different weapons, with many different checks of line of sight and range, etc. To say that a unit 'shoots' another unit is shorthand for what can be a lengthy process of resolving an often complex 'collective shoot' or shooting attack.
Luckily, we need to look no further than a dictionary to reinforce what we already know to be true.
Definition 4a: to shoot: 'to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting.'
So the dictionary reinforces what we already know to be true. "Shoot" can refer to and be shorthand for a lengthier, complex, and multi-step shooting process. In 40k, a unit shooting another unit can be very complex, but unit shooting ultimately breaks down to a granular level of individual models firing shots with singular weapons at other models. In fact, the semantically astute here will simply see the meaning of 'shoot' used when a unit 'shoots' another unit as merely a metonymic use of 'shoot' to stand for a more complex 'shooting process'.
So when a unit of orks 'shoots' a unit of centaurs in 40k we can safely ascertain that it means more than that just a shot from a single weapon being exchanged between the units. The semantics of 'shoot' support its use as shorthand for a "shooting process" or a "shooting sequence" or a series of steps in the game (indeed a portion of the game) that involves "shooting." When a unit of orks 'shoots' a unit of centaurs it is 'engaging [the unit of centaurs] in the portion of a game [of 40k] that involves shooting' (ie the shooting sequence).
col_impact wrote: Good. I see that you have doubled down on your argument and want to maintain that the BRB uses 'shoot' in the same way for unit as well as for model. So you insist that 'shoot' always refers to an individual firing of a shot by a single weapon.
To be accurate, I am stating that there is no stated differentiation when the verb shoot is used between unit, model, and weapon, nor have you provided this differentiation.
col_impact wrote: So to clarify you will interpret this statement . . .
"The unit of orks shoots the unit of centaurs" as
Spoiler:
"The unit of orks fires a shot with a single weapon at the unit of centaurs."
and you will not interpret it this way . . .
Spoiler:
"The unit of orks collectively resolves all of its shots with all of its shootings weapons against the units of centaurs"
Better question, why can they not be both? In order for the unit of orks to shoot the unit of centaurs, at least one weapon must be used to shoot at the unit of centaurs (and is not limited to one). Now, this means that the shooting attack is resolved against the unit.
But in the case of "The unit of orks fails to shoot the unit of centaurs because they are out of range." would also be accurate. Or, "I choose not to shoot with this unit of orks since they are not in range of anything." would also be an accurate statement.
Shooting is an action that is part of a noun known as either the shooting process or a shooting attack. It is the central verb for these nouns, indeed it is the adjective for them. But that does not mean the verb changes definition because it is couched within these nouns from one level to another. A statement must be made to differentiate them, and you have yet to provide it.
col_impact wrote: The astute onlooker will have already noticed that your simple definition of 'shoot' runs afoul of the rules and the way the game actually plays out. When a unit shoots another unit it is a multi-step process involving many shots from many models and often more than one weapon and definitely not a singular shot from a single weapon. Any player of 40k knows units involve often complex gathering of models and when a unit 'shoots' another unit it almost never involves simply a shot with a single weapon. In fact when a unit 'shoots' another unit, the game must march through an array of models with an array of weapons, with each model firing shots with sometimes different weapons, with many different checks of line of sight and range, etc. To say that a unit 'shoots' another unit is shorthand for what can be a lengthy process of resolving an often complex 'collective shoot' or shooting attack.
An astute onlooker and listener would have noted that never once have I limited "shoot" or "shooting" to a maximum of one shot from a single weapon. That is a case you have made up on your own. It is the minimum, yes, otherwise the use of the verb "shoot" has not actually been used in the process you are talking about. You seem to be having this argument in your head and making assumptions about my position. No wonder you keep getting lost.
Is shooting a multi-step process? Most definitely, nor did I state otherwise. The actual shooting starts with the To-Hit actions and is resolved with through the process of success or failure of Hitting, Wounding/Penetrating, and possibly Saving. The act of shooting is not stated before that point and it is the act of shooting that initiates the rest of the Sequence. Indeed, the 3 steps before are what setup the act of shooting and define the parameters which follows, such as success targets.
But right before that To-Hit section it asks Which Models Can Fire? And at that point it literally states that only if Line of Sight and/or range can be satisfied, that it can shoot. No LOS, no shooting. No range, no shooting. As mentioned before, there are other things that can stop shooting as well, but they are not really pertinent to this discussion.
col_impact wrote: Luckily, we need to look no further than a dictionary to reinforce what we already know to be true.
Definition 4a: to shoot: 'to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting.'
So the dictionary reinforces what we already know to be true. "Shoot" can refer to and be shorthand for a lengthier, complex, and multi-step shooting process. In 40k, a unit shooting another unit can be very complex, but unit shooting ultimately breaks down to a granular level of individual models firing shots with singular weapons at other models. In fact, the semantically astute here we simply see the meaning of 'shoot' used when a unit 'shoots' another unit as merely a metonymic use of 'shoot' to stand for a more complex 'shooting process'.
So when a unit of orks 'shoots' a unit of centaurs in 40k we can safely ascertain that it means more than that just a shot from a single weapon being exchanged between the units. The semantics of 'shoot' support its use as shorthand for a "shooting process" or a "shooting sequence" or a series of steps in the game (indeed a portion of the game) that involves "shooting." When a unit of orks 'shoots' a unit of centaurs it is 'engaging [the unit of centaurs] in the portion of a game [of 40k] that involves shooting' (ie the shooting sequence).
And if we look at how the rules state them, those orks can only shoot if they have Line of Sight and Range on the chosen target. Not all definitions from Merriam Webster or Oxford will apply in every situation. One must take context and use in to consideration.
Try as you like, you can't get around this situation because we are dealing with rulebook terms which have been admitted by yourself are not literally defined only used and demonstrated in a specific use. Nor have you demonstrated at any point that a unit going through the entire shooting process but never applying a To-Hit process for a weapon still counts as shooting. Indeed, someone on your position admitted that it does not exist.
So have fun with your false arguments and applying statements and positions to me and others that we have not stated. Since you have not quoted it by now, I assume you cannot or will not, and so violating that first tenet of providing proof to support your position.
Ceaser wrote: Seems as though loop holes are being attempted by these players. I sure hope not all players try as hard as these to use loop holes :/ if they do, stricter itc voting a for tau should be put in place.
Oh hello Pain4Pleasure! Long time no see.
Rather than again quoting a ton of text, I'll address this here.
Charistoph, your problem is that you do not realize the difference between a unit shooting (ie. go through the shooting sequence steps) and one model shooting. There is a clear distinction as explained in the rules. You keep repeating that if no roll to hit is made, then no shooting has been done. Your failure is to produce a quote from the rules to support this. Want to try one more time? As a reminder, one or more models form up a unit. The check is for whether a unit has shot or not, not the model to allow someone to proceed to the shooting sequence, verbatim from Shooting sequence step #1: Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
Now let's see your quote from the rulebook which says rolling to hit equals that the unit has shot. I'll help you, there is no rule. Pg 31 says: All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase. [...] Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again in that phase.
Caeser/Charistoph, I'll re-use my example but make it simpler for you and remove the +1BS from the equation. I'd like an answer from you:
I have three units of Crisis suits who are all in range with all of their weapons. As per the shooting rules, I nominate Unit A (Shooting sequence step #1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (Shooting sequence step #2). As per the rules for Coordinated Firestorm, now other units can join in and I add Unit B (2x3 plasma rifles) and Unit C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Instead of three different units, I now have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit.
Moving on I choose a weapon group and select missile pods and check the range for them and am found to be in range (Shooting sequence step #3). I then proceed to roll to hit (Shooting sequence step #4) with 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I proceed to roll to wound (Shooting sequence step #5), causing 12 wounds. Next step is allocating wounds and removing casualties (Shooting sequence step #6), which wipes out the target unit. Next step tells us to select another weapon (Shooting sequence step #7), but as the target unit is dead, I can't shoot anymore.
I placed some questions that you completely failed to answer probably because you didn't like the answers you were required to give, but let's try again:
Question 1: Has Unit B and Unit C by your reading completed their shooting as they didn't roll a single dice?
Question 2: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to choose new targets and proceed to shooting as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
Question 3: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to take part to new Coordinated Firestorm as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
There are other questions I could make based on above perfectly legal situation, now I'd like to hear your excuses.
For Caesar: Page 31 of the Rulebook says following: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
As models make a unit, there is on obligation for me to even try to shoot with a specific model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: In order for something to shoot, it must check off the Line of Sight question AND check off the Range question.
Let's try that again. Step 2 is to select target, the target can be anywhere on the table as long as I have line of sight. That is the only requirement there. Then I choose which weapons (and models) shoot in step 3 and it says: Every model that wishes to shoot. So I am given the option of choosing which models will fire and additionally not shoot at all with some models. Now I do agree that if a MODEL wants to shoot, it needs both range and line of sight, but there is no requirement for the UNIT as shown in steps 1 and 2. This is the part that you keep constantly ignoring or mixing up.
I feel this discussion is quite fruitless and your refusal to follow written rules is duly noted.
Naw wrote: Charistoph, your problem is that you do not realize the difference between a unit shooting (ie. go through the shooting sequence steps) and one model shooting. There is a clear distinction as explained in the rules. You keep repeating that if no roll to hit is made, then no shooting has been done. Your failure is to produce a quote from the rules to support this. Want to try one more time? As a reminder, one or more models form up a unit. The check is for whether a unit has shot or not, not the model to allow someone to proceed to the shooting sequence, verbatim from Shooting sequence step #1: Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
Now let's see your quote from the rulebook which says rolling to hit equals that the unit has shot. I'll help you, there is no rule. Pg 31 says: All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase. [...] Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again in that phase.
No quote has been provided that says going through the shooting sequence is a unit shooting. This would be sufficient, but it is only an assumption by you and others, not written nor even suggested.
As I have stated and as I have demonstrated IN THE RULES, in Which Models Can Fire? that it explicitly states that only those with Line of Sight and range can shoot. Therefore, if it fails with either, it is not shooting. This is the last check that states such before the To-Hit section.
Spoiler:
Which Models Can Fire? Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase.
Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.
Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.
ROLL TO HIT To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later...
And that's just the general rules and doesn't consider things like moving and firing Ordnance with a non-Vehicle, Snap Firing with template weapons, etc.
Not that it means anything. You haven't paid any actual attention to what I've said, or you would know I've addressed this point several times.
Naw wrote: Caeser/Charistoph, I'll re-use my example but make it simpler for you and remove the +1BS from the equation. I'd like an answer from you:
I have three units of Crisis suits who are all in range with all of their weapons. As per the shooting rules, I nominate Unit A (Shooting sequence step #1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (Shooting sequence step #2). As per the rules for Coordinated Firestorm, now other units can join in and I add Unit B (2x3 plasma rifles) and Unit C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Instead of three different units, I now have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit.
Moving on I choose a weapon group and select missile pods and check the range for them and am found to be in range (Shooting sequence step #3). I then proceed to roll to hit (Shooting sequence step #4) with 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I proceed to roll to wound (Shooting sequence step #5), causing 12 wounds. Next step is allocating wounds and removing casualties (Shooting sequence step #6), which wipes out the target unit. Next step tells us to select another weapon (Shooting sequence step #7), but as the target unit is dead, I can't shoot anymore.
I placed some questions that you completely failed to answer probably because you didn't like the answers you were required to give, but let's try again:
Not my fault you cannot extrapolate an answer from what I've said.
Naw wrote: Question 1: Has Unit B and Unit C by your reading completed their shooting as they didn't roll a single dice?
What shooting? If they didn't shoot, they didn't follow the instructions laid out in the rule. This is like the Walker Defiler firing its Ordnance Battle Cannon AFTER firing its Reaper Cannon at full BS. Firing it second is fully allowed for in the rules, but the Reaper would still need to be Snap Fired.
Naw wrote: Question 2: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to choose new targets and proceed to shooting as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
They didn't shoot, and so failed to fulfill their part in the CF. Is this a challenge for you?
Naw wrote: Question 3: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to take part to new Coordinated Firestorm as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
Why not? They didn't shoot, much less at the same target. Therefore, they did not follow the CF instructions.
Naw wrote: There are other questions I could make based on above perfectly legal situation, now I'd like to hear your excuses.
For Caesar: Page 31 of the Rulebook says following: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
As models make a unit, there is on obligation for me to even try to shoot with a specific model.
True, you don't. But nothing has been presented that if a unit's models do not shoot, the unit is still considered to have been shooting.
Charistoph wrote: In order for something to shoot, it must check off the Line of Sight question AND check off the Range question.
Let's try that again. Step 2 is to select target, the target can be anywhere on the table as long as I have line of sight. That is the only requirement there. Then I choose which weapons (and models) shoot in step 3 and it says: Every model that wishes to shoot. So I am given the option of choosing which models will fire and additionally not shoot at all with some models. Now I do agree that if a MODEL wants to shoot, it needs both range and line of sight, but there is no requirement for the UNIT as shown in steps 1 and 2. This is the part that you keep constantly ignoring or mixing up.
Yes, let's look at the full rules of Step 2, shall we, not just the outline you look at:
Spoiler:
CHOOSE A TARGET Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.
No, I'm not ignoring or mixing up the situation. My point has been from the beginning that the verb "shooting" is used any differently between levels of the game. YOU and your party are the ones who are applying a noun to be a verb. That its use by the models is its use by the unit and nothing else tells me to do otherwise.
Naw wrote: I feel this discussion is quite fruitless and your refusal to follow written rules is duly noted.
I follow the written rules. I have not misplaced them, nor have I added to them, nor misrepresented them. You have ignored my statements and placed your own narrative over them to try and strawman them down, and that's even worse.
Charistophe, it's time for you to start contributing to the actual debate and put forth something substantive behind what has so far been just an evasive line of argumentation on your part. I suggest you start by defining your terms - what does it mean when a model 'shoots'? What does it mean when a unit 'shoots'?
The rulebook does not provide an explicit definition of 'shoot'. The only thing the rulebook provides explicitly is a shooting sequence that units use to make shooting attacks. Within the confines of the shooting sequence we note instances where models are given permission to 'shoot' so we can infer that shooting at the model level involves something along the lines of . . .
Spoiler:
'To Shoot'
for models - to fire a shot with a single shooting weapon; in the game, this is represented by a toHit roll, a scatter roll, or a template placed on the battlefield.
However, Coordinated Fire requires us to make sense of what it means when a unit 'shoots' a target unit.
Spoiler:
Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill.
We are required by the rule to only count units that can successfully join in and 'shoot'. Determining what counts as a successful instance of 'unit shoots' is at the crux of this debate.
A big problem emerges in the sense that the definition of 'shoot' that we have inferred so far at the model level does not work at the unit level. Units are collectives of models and to resolve an instance of 'unit shoots' we need to march through the array of models and weapons and situations contained within and resolve each instance of 'model shoots' in the unit.
Charistophe, et al, largely ignores the problem of tackling what it means when a 'unit shoots'. He leaves the notion of 'unit shoots' wholly undefined. He avoids it entirely and instead looks only at whether or not a model shoots as some litmus test to determine if the undefined 'unit shoots' has happened. However, by leaving 'unit shoots' undefined he can attest absolutely nothing as to whether a 'unit shoots' or not when all of the models in the unit do not shoot. The rulebook offers no rule indicating the relationship between 'unit shoots' and 'model shoots'. He demands rulebook quotes from the other side to provide support that a successful instance of 'unit shoots' can occur when no instance of 'model shoots' occurs. But just as easily, the other side can demand rulebook quotes to provide support that a successful instance of 'unit shoots' requires an instance of 'model shoots' to occur. Even further, the other side can demand Charistophe to define what 'unit shoots' means because his leaving it undefined makes his argument wholly untenable and unworthy of serious consideration. One cannot test for success against something undefined. Until Charistophe clarifies what 'unit shoots' means in his argument, he has no argument.
So in order to avoid the trap that Charistophe's argument falls into (of leaving critical things undefined), we are required to offer up a definition of 'unit shoots'. Just as we can infer a definition of 'model shoots' we can infer a definition of 'unit shoots'. In many ways it is easier to infer from the rules what 'unit shoots' means as opposed to what 'model shoots' means since the rulebook explicitly provides us with what the shooting sequence is and the shooting sequence manages what happens at the unit level. The shooting sequence is a series of steps a unit follows to march through step by step each model and weapon in the unit to resolve the shooting attack it makes against a target unit. The shooting sequence provides us with everything we need to encapsulate the complexity of what occurs when a 'unit shoots' - all the steps involved in marching through the models and weapons are laid out for us. In fact the simplest thing to infer is that 'unit shoots' means straightforwardly 'unit attempts a shooting attack by following the shooting sequence'. In fact, given the concreteness in the rules of the shooting sequence itself and its direct relationship to handling shooting at the unit level, there are no other tenable options but to define 'unit shoots' in exactly this manner. So to summarize . . .
Spoiler:
'To Shoot'
for units - to make a collective shooting attack, ie in game terms to step through the shooting sequence, to resolve all the shots from the collective [unit]
Spoiler:
At the unit level then, 'shoot' refers to dealing with the portion of the game that involves shooting (the shooting sequence) - when your unit of models collectively resolves its shots at a target unit of enemy models. This is wholly consistent with English semantic usage of 'shoot: to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting' .
Definition 4a: to shoot: 'to engage in a portion of a game that involves shooting.'
So the dictionary reinforces what we already know to be true. We are not dealing with an individual instance of firing a shot with a single weapon from one individual model to another individual model but shooting en masse from a collective of models with a plethora of weapons to another collective of models. "Shoot" can refer to and be shorthand for a lengthier, complex, and multi-step shooting process. In 40k, a unit shooting another unit can be very complex, but unit shooting ultimately breaks down to a granular level of individual models firing shots with singular weapons at other models. In fact, the semantically astute here will simply see the meaning of 'shoot' used when a unit 'shoots' another unit as merely a metonymic use of 'shoot' to stand for a more complex 'shooting process'.
The semantics of 'shoot' support its use as shorthand for a "shooting process" or a "shooting sequence" or a series of steps in the game (indeed a portion of the game) that involves "shooting."
In order for a unit to successfully 'shoot', the unit must legally complete the shooting sequence. For a unit to participate in the shooting sequence, the rules only require line of sight. Per the rules, units that are out of range of a target unit can still engage that target unit in 'shooting' and work through the 'shooting sequence'. Depending on player choice, Gets Hot! results, and range to target - all, some or none of the models in a unit can participate when a 'unit shoots'. A successful instance of 'unit shoots' can occur despite no instance of 'model shoots' in that unit.
So the issue has been resolved and the debate is effectively over (ie my argument stands uncontested) unless the counter argument being offered up by Charistophe can present some actual substance - some definition of 'unit shoots' - that proves better than mine. He has evaded offering up any such definition and by doing so he is unable to deal with the crux of the debate - namely, what does it mean when Coordinated Fire requires that "these units must shoot the same target". I have directly answered what it means when "these units must shoot". Charistophe needs to directly answer as well or concede the argument.
I have offered my definitions of 'model shoots' and 'unit shoots' without any evasion and provided an answer to the issue that works in all test cases (e.g. the test case for Gets Hot!). Since a unit shoots by running through the shooting sequence, a unit composed of 1 model that gets a Gets Hot! result with a blast weapon still counts as having shot (the unit indeed shoots) even though the model comprising the unit fires no shot and does not shoot.
Naw wrote: Charistoph, your problem is that you do not realize the difference between a unit shooting (ie. go through the shooting sequence steps) and one model shooting.
No quote has been provided that says going through the shooting sequence is a unit shooting.
I see. Well, it makes for short games if you forego shooting completely.
As I have stated and as I have demonstrated IN THE RULES, in Which Models Can Fire?
And I am not in disagreement here. Those indeed are rules for models. Now what are units made of? How do units in your game shoot? We have explicit permission not to shoot with a model if we don't want to. Do you think the shooting sequence is there just for fun?
doesn't consider things like moving and firing Ordnance with a non-Vehicle, Snap Firing with template weapons, etc.
What?? Why does my unit of 9 crisis suits care?
You haven't paid any actual attention to what I've said, or you would know I've addressed this point several times.
It might have helped your case if you actually managed to quote any rules. But you didn't.
Naw wrote: Caeser/Charistoph, I'll re-use my example but make it simpler for you and remove the +1BS from the equation. I'd like an answer from you:
I have three units of Crisis suits who are all in range with all of their weapons. As per the shooting rules, I nominate Unit A (Shooting sequence step #1) with 3 dual missile pods selects a target (Shooting sequence step #2). As per the rules for Coordinated Firestorm, now other units can join in and I add Unit B (2x3 plasma rifles) and Unit C (2x3 fusion blaster) join the shooting as per pg 71 of Codex: Tau: resolving their shots as if they were a single unit. Instead of three different units, I now have 9 models with 3 different weapons behaving as a single unit.
Moving on I choose a weapon group and select missile pods and check the range for them and am found to be in range (Shooting sequence step #3). I then proceed to roll to hit (Shooting sequence step #4) with 6 missile pods, scoring multiple hits. I proceed to roll to wound (Shooting sequence step #5), causing 12 wounds. Next step is allocating wounds and removing casualties (Shooting sequence step #6), which wipes out the target unit. Next step tells us to select another weapon (Shooting sequence step #7), but as the target unit is dead, I can't shoot anymore.
I placed some questions that you completely failed to answer probably because you didn't like the answers you were required to give, but let's try again:
Not my fault you cannot extrapolate an answer from what I've said.
Naw wrote: Question 1: Has Unit B and Unit C by your reading completed their shooting as they didn't roll a single dice?
What shooting? If they didn't shoot, they didn't follow the instructions laid out in the rule. This is like the Walker Defiler firing its Ordnance Battle Cannon AFTER firing its Reaper Cannon at full BS. Firing it second is fully allowed for in the rules, but the Reaper would still need to be Snap Fired.
LOL. That's all I can say here. Your complete failure to answer did not go unnoticed.
Naw wrote: Question 2: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to choose new targets and proceed to shooting as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
They didn't shoot, and so failed to fulfill their part in the CF. Is this a challenge for you?
Naw wrote: Question 3: Are Unit B and Unit C allowed to take part to new Coordinated Firestorm as per your reading of the rule they never participated to a shooting?
Why not? They didn't shoot, much less at the same target. Therefore, they did not follow the CF instructions.
Shoot what? They no longer had a target. Are you now saying that there is a rule against killing an enemy unit? Are you also claiming that even though the CF rule tells us to resolve the shooting as a single unit that isn't the case. So which one is it? Are they separate units or a single one? Your failure is again noted.
For Caesar: Page 31 of the Rulebook says following: A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers.
As models make a unit, there is on obligation for me to even try to shoot with a specific model.
True, you don't. But nothing has been presented that if a unit's models do not shoot, the unit is still considered to have been shooting.
Mmmkay, have fun in your shooting phase where only units that have not yet shot (or ran) can shoot.
Charistoph wrote: In order for something to shoot, it must check off the Line of Sight question AND check off the Range question.
Let's try that again. Step 2 is to select target, the target can be anywhere on the table as long as I have line of sight. That is the only requirement there. Then I choose which weapons (and models) shoot in step 3 and it says: Every model that wishes to shoot. So I am given the option of choosing which models will fire and additionally not shoot at all with some models. Now I do agree that if a MODEL wants to shoot, it needs both range and line of sight, but there is no requirement for the UNIT as shown in steps 1 and 2. This is the part that you keep constantly ignoring or mixing up.
Yes, let's look at the full rules of Step 2, shall we, not just the outline you look at:
Spoiler:
CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.
Line of Sight
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen.
No, I'm not ignoring or mixing up the situation. My point has been from the beginning that the verb "shooting" is used any differently between levels of the game. YOU and your party are the ones who are applying a noun to be a verb. That its use by the models is its use by the unit and nothing else tells me to do otherwise.
Ah, but the rules in the shooting phase do. Units complete shooting, units choose targets, units everywhere. How do you complete shooting phases in your games?!?
Naw wrote: I feel this discussion is quite fruitless and your refusal to follow written rules is duly noted.
I follow the written rules. I have not misplaced them, nor have I added to them, nor misrepresented them. You have ignored my statements and placed your own narrative over them to try and strawman them down, and that's even worse.
I see. Then we are done here. Have nice games of not-shooting with your units.
Ps. Impossible to fix quotes with a mobile device.
