I think the main detachment is going to be hard for most players to field, even if you play Mono-god. I haven't seen many players who have 6-9 of the exact same unit.
It will be even harder for someone like me who has to have at least 1 unit from all 4 gods in every list no matter what points level. That Infernal Tetrad is the only formation that is appealing to me, but that will depend on how many points it ends up being after the "ideal" builds shake out for the new items.
The soul grinder one isn't bad, but I have to convert a 3rd Grinder to field it.
I absolutely love the Skullreaver. I think it is the ideal way to field a Thirster. You get the D for cheaper AND get to attack at Initiative.
Paradox is by and far the best relic from the codex. It'll be seen in basically every single Daemon list that can spare the points, and they'll probably make sure to wiggle the points to make it so.
The rest... meh. The new tables aren't good enough to roll over Malefic/Telepathy/Biomancy, there are some good relic weapons but a lot of the current ones are just as good if not better (hello Balesword!), and the Detachment is a hassle to run.
I mean, I would love to run their Detachment. Warp Table becomes less random, reroll Instability, and be able to get off Objectives without messing up everything? Yes please! But the Core choices are just so... ugh.
I.. really like the idea of a LoC with the impossible robes. As long as you can stack with cursed earth,.. that's a very tough punchy guy. Also has a 1/6 chance of getting +1 inv from warlord trait!
I just can't build a list with the detachment. I have enough models for khorne, but .. DK it better.
The nurgle instrument is amazing. I think it's more powerful than paradox or at least equivalent. Most of the updated rules might find some place in the lists we already played. As for the decurion, my only possible solution is tallyband as core and cavalcade as aux. then fill with daemon lords. But still I am not sure if it's worth it. Meh. For the relics I would say remove from play weapon for GMCs removal, paradox for tzeentch, bell and contagion for nurgle (auto wound nurgle prince?) then paw and wound recovery weapon for Slaanesh. Warlord traits are great, still kairos is top choice. As for the psychics, I think that telepathy / shriek / terrify is even more dreaded if used with the bell. D weapon power is ok. Kairos you believe is an auto include to any decent list from now on.
Every old unit can be fitted with the new items and powers, the formations are a bit rubbish excluding a select few, such as the tzeench herald and whole bunch of screamers, people were fielding that already and it was OP before the new buffs. The Skullcannon formatiin looks fun, apocalyptic blasts in small point games sounds hilarious.
The formations just require too many units to be used with the new detachments. :( If the base formation was "pick 6-9 of any of this god's demons" it would be far more flexible, but splitting the formations in half really pigeonholes you in a clunky list design. Although the command benefits for the new detachment are awesome, I just can't imagine anyone fielding them. Perhaps the Tallyman host with loads of nurgling's would be worth it, but it seems a long way to go to simply get lasting scoring, especially when you lose objective secured on those nurglings anyway.
Despite that, I'm a little bit more excited to be playing my Demons again, getting a chance to see what really works with the new Warlord traits and items. (which I'm assuming can be used in a normal CAD from CD)
The only one I see myself using would be the Slaanesh one backed by a couple of grinders and a prince, or a couple of princes. Too bad the core plus a Prince and a cheap Aux is like 1300 points.
Now, you could take MSU squads of just 10 girls; but they will shot to death trying to cross the table. They can still be effective if you reserve them and deep strike them into cover or onto an objective as the fast. Tag the objective and duck into cover. They need numbers to run up the board. I'd take at least on maxed squad with a greater etherblade armed Alluress for the Herald to hide in. The Alluress can take challenges from characters the Herald would rather not fight.
- Or you could go all in an drop a 120 daemonettes buffed with the 12" of re-rolling to hit bubble for 1,100 pts. Then take 35 pts of Furies, and....1-3 KOS for under 1,800 pts.
- Or take the daemonette and furies along with: 2 10-15X Seeker squads with icons, and 4 chariots. In a Rush/Bomb list.
- Or take the daemonette and furies along with: a ML3 Sorcerer in terminator armor, 50 pts of cultists, and 6-9 obliterators in a Daemon Bomb.
- Or take the daemonette and furies along with: a Slaanesh Lord, some MSU Noise Marines with blastmasters, and MOS Bikers w/ melta, and some obliterators.
Seeker Chariots:
They start out with 2HP and generate 2D6 S4/AP-/Rending Attacks. The Murderous Impact rule from the Grand Cavalcade grant them a bonus +1D6 additional hits for a total of 3D6 HOW attacks assuming they don't lose any HP. While that's not likely to happen given that they are AV11 and open topped. Its still far better than before. Mine used to die horribly, or make combat with 1HP remaining. Where the would hit with 1D6 HOW attacks which does nothing against marines as you don't get enough rends. The formation helps preserves their lethality, if they survive to make combat there still hitting with 2D6 HOW attacks.
They're are fast.: Move 12", Flat out +6", Fast +6", Daemon of Slaanesh +3", Cavalcade Formation + 6" = 33" of movement turn 1. With 3D6 S4/AP-/Rending hits at I10 for a mere 40 pts each. Then you have the Warpstorm manipulation granting in a 4+ invulnerable save 25% of the time. Even before taking into account Psychic powers. The s need for the formation cost a mere 240 pts, with a cheap Herald on a Seeker Chariot you can fulfill the auxiliary requirement for 310 pts.
Fiends:
While, they haven't been worth it since their 6th ed nerfing. How I wish we still had the old version now: 6 S5 attacks on the charge, hit & run, and S6 on the pack leader. That said -5I is still useful if you combo charge especially with the formations -1WS/-1I; plus they'll be in range of the Loci of Beguilement as well. Maybe run 3X MSU units up the board with your chariots and seekers. Charge them in first to reduce the enemies I and eat the over-watch.
what about the idea of 99 pink horrors with locus and formation detachement for str7 ap 4 shots that is honestly the best in my opinion. i dont see how the screamer formation is good, and where are you getting the str d at initiative? i know the tzeentch psychic power will grant one but thats it?
The problem with pink horrors and witch fires is that they aren't self sufficient. To cast a WC1 flicker fire you need like 3 WCs to get a solid chance of passing it but 11 horrors only make 2 (and if they lose any horrors its only 1 WC). This means each horror squad that wants to shoot siphons another units WCs to cast their FF and then they are still only BS3 with a random number of shots. It just doesn't do enough for how many resources you through at it
I would just spam the forge host. Soul Grinders are decently durable and have a battle cannon that doesn't cause it to go stupid with all of it's other weapons. They have decent amount of customization that they can be tooled for a lot of different roles.
CrownAxe wrote: The problem with pink horrors and witch fires is that they aren't self sufficient. To cast a WC1 flicker fire you need like 3 WCs to get a solid chance of passing it but 11 horrors only make 2 (and if they lose any horrors its only 1 WC). This means each horror squad that wants to shoot siphons another units WCs to cast their FF and then they are still only BS3 with a random number of shots. It just doesn't do enough for how many resources you through at it
ya but you can get the herald or the soul grinder formation and make them reroll to hit and wound, and the herald can provide much more warp charges. i made a list revolving around that i get something like 27 warp charges thats enough for anything, and all i have to use is the tzeentch discipline. honestly im just trying to find a good mono tzeentch army. right now its either screemer star, flying circus and pink horror gunline
I think the TallyHost+Cavalcade list could be good. Put the Bell on something, then cast slaanesh powers and murder everything. Bonus points for rolling terrify and invisibility.
I've always wanted to run the masque of slannesh, she seems incredibly situational but considering nowadays us daemon players can take around 4 other seperate HQ units, her incredibly low cost and fun abilities (re-rolls on inv save and the 3 incredible dances anyone???) Means people might actually consider fielding her, after all making a unit unable to overwatch and reducing their ballistic skill to 1 is invaluble in alot of situations. The only reason I don't see her on the field is her 2 wounds, they really should allow her to join groups of daemonettes
In addition throwing in a Grimoire meams she can get 3+ re-rollable invunerability saves
Reavas wrote: I've always wanted to run the masque of slannesh, she seems incredibly situational but considering nowadays us daemon players can take around 4 other seperate HQ units, her incredibly low cost and fun abilities (re-rolls on inv save and the 3 incredible dances anyone???) Means people might actually consider fielding her, after all making a unit unable to overwatch and reducing their ballistic skill to 1 is invaluble in alot of situations. The only reason I don't see her on the field is her 2 wounds, they really should allow her to join groups of daemonettes
In addition throwing in a Grimoire meams she can get 3+ re-rollable invunerability saves
I also like masque. I used to field her together with a keeper in the HQ slots but as you say it was hard to say no to heralds. I only play mono slaanesh when I play daemons. This is what Im thinking right now (I have all the models to field this already).
Spoiler:
Daemonic incursion
Daemon lord Keeper of secrets
ML 3
Exalted gift
Greater gift
soulstealer
Flayertroupe Masque
10 Daemonettes
10 daemonettes
3 fiends
3 fiends
3 fiends
3 fiends
Grand calvalcade Herald of slaanesh
steed
beguilement
Greater eatherblade
Reavas wrote: I've always wanted to run the masque of slannesh, she seems incredibly situational but considering nowadays us daemon players can take around 4 other seperate HQ units, her incredibly low cost and fun abilities (re-rolls on inv save and the 3 incredible dances anyone???) Means people might actually consider fielding her, after all making a unit unable to overwatch and reducing their ballistic skill to 1 is invaluble in alot of situations. The only reason I don't see her on the field is her 2 wounds, they really should allow her to join groups of daemonettes
In addition throwing in a Grimoire meams she can get 3+ re-rollable invunerability saves
I also like masque. I used to field her together with a keeper in the HQ slots but as you say it was hard to say no to heralds. I only play mono slaanesh when I play daemons. This is what Im thinking right now (I have all the models to field this already).
I like the list and Masque. But wouldn't she be better taken in a CAD, with 2 MSU Daemonette units. If you take her in the Flayertroupe, you're missing out on the Locus of Beguilement bubble effects on your daemonettes and fiends.
CrownAxe wrote: The problem with pink horrors and witch fires is that they aren't self sufficient. To cast a WC1 flicker fire you need like 3 WCs to get a solid chance of passing it but 11 horrors only make 2 (and if they lose any horrors its only 1 WC). This means each horror squad that wants to shoot siphons another units WCs to cast their FF and then they are still only BS3 with a random number of shots. It just doesn't do enough for how many resources you through at it
ya but you can get the herald or the soul grinder formation and make them reroll to hit and wound, and the herald can provide much more warp charges. i made a list revolving around that i get something like 27 warp charges thats enough for anything, and all i have to use is the tzeentch discipline. honestly im just trying to find a good mono tzeentch army. right now its either screemer star, flying circus and pink horror gunline
It'd be a lot easier to just play Tau and spam missilesides and crisis with missile pods if all you want is a bunch of Str 7 AP 4.
The herald can give them [the horrors] prescience (but only 1 unit) and that eats even further into your warp charge. The soul grinder formation only hands out re-rolls for the soul grinders in the formation, not everything in your army..
^ ya figured that out but im still trying to find a good monstrous creature army for daemons i was thinking about taking 1 herald and 9 exalted flamers. then i take 5 furies and then the tetrad formation, that allows me not to take fetweaver and take something else like a d-thirster + i like formations
some of the invuln buffs in those tz lists look highly abusable, and one could field 4 LoCs... but wow. 9 units? so much for that...
do we know which formations are stand alone?
I like the idea of running a bunch of exalted flamers of tzeentch, but I freaking hate Warpflame. I usually avoid targeting toughness value units out of fear of granting FNP. Making their shots str 10 or str 6 is pretty tempting though. Seems like it could work if you put a couple in a unit together so you have a good chance of wiping units before they get to roll the toughness test.
I also like the Grand Cavalcade. I've never run the slaanesh chariots to have personal experience, but at 40 points each they seem like a pretty solid unit that would overwhelm opponents in numbers. Even giving a simple etherblade to each would make them pretty effective in combat against most ground units.
Warpflame is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The big thing is you can mitigate it by just focus firing the unit down (so that it dies before it even takes a warpflame test) but also giving a unit 6+ FNP is so negligible its not worth worrying about
i hate the fact that you HAVE to take units like 9 or 6 or 7 or 8 its really killing my wanting to field the tetrad formation with the bonus of the decurion
Reavas wrote: I've always wanted to run the masque of slannesh, she seems incredibly situational but considering nowadays us daemon players can take around 4 other seperate HQ units, her incredibly low cost and fun abilities (re-rolls on inv save and the 3 incredible dances anyone???) Means people might actually consider fielding her, after all making a unit unable to overwatch and reducing their ballistic skill to 1 is invaluble in alot of situations. The only reason I don't see her on the field is her 2 wounds, they really should allow her to join groups of daemonettes
In addition throwing in a Grimoire meams she can get 3+ re-rollable invunerability saves
I also like masque. I used to field her together with a keeper in the HQ slots but as you say it was hard to say no to heralds. I only play mono slaanesh when I play daemons. This is what Im thinking right now (I have all the models to field this already).
I like the list and Masque. But wouldn't she be better taken in a CAD, with 2 MSU Daemonette units. If you take her in the Flayertroupe, you're missing out on the Locus of Beguilement bubble effects on your daemonettes and fiends.
I'm not sure, if you compare the masque to a 75 point herald, assuming you would pack a loci of beguilement the masque will give you more bang for your buck, her debuffs are almost just as effective as the loci and thats not even including her awesome statline (not including those gakky woumds lol) only downside is she can't join units, which I wish they had changed but there is little love for her from the GW. She is also less prone to kaboomy large blasts which is nice. She is also better in for fiend based lists rather than daemonettes
Another good question is what fiend to daemonette ratio is best when forming the flayertroupe.
I played 2 games at the store today. One at 2k points and one at 1.2k. My list for 2k was:
2k:
Core:
Warpflame host:
Herald of Tzeentch:
PL3
Exalted Locus
Exalted Reward
3x(Pink Horrorsx11)
3xFlamers
3xExalted Flamers
Murder Horde:
Herald of khorne (no upgrades)
4xbloodlettersx10
bloodcrushers
3xhoundsx5
Command:
LoC ML3
The Impossible Robe
2 greater gifts
1 lesser gift
Aux:
Furies
My opponent's list as far I remember:
30k list (thousand sons):
Lots of FW dreadnauts (4?) One big one in a droppod
big assault squad
big tactical squad
big terminator squad(10?)
Here are my thoughts:
The exalted flamers are insanely good. The turn they came in, every model with a 3+ save on the board died. Torrent str6ap3? Completely insane.
My LoC rolled +1 to invul on the warlord table and so had 2++ rerollable base. with cursed earth up, my horrors and flamers in the 9" and 12" bubble had a 3++ reroll 1s save, which is just crazy. One bolt of change killed 10 marines, imobed a dread, and killed another. str 10 psy powers were the norm.
The khorne/pink horrors/summons models filled the board up so much that the terminators had no place to come in safely and ended up mishaping. I placed them in the corner of the board and they effectively were worthless.
SixPointFive did you realize that the Exalted Flamer's guns are both Heavy weapons so snap fire if they move at all (which includes deep striking). You can't even fire their torrent flamer on the turn they come in from reserves.
Buddy has the book. You can indeed take a CAD and access the powers, traits ,and artifacts in this book.
It says something to the effect of: This book is designed to be used in conjunction with the chaos daemons codex, the rules here update, replace, or supplement the rules in your codex.
I'm assuming this means the formations are gtg also. Meaning I can take a Daemon CAD, with an "Infernal Tetrad" formation or even a "Daemon Lord" formation to just tac on an Extra HQ.
Budzerker wrote: Buddy has the book. You can indeed take a CAD and access the powers, traits ,and artifacts in this book.
It says something to the effect of: This book is designed to be used in conjunction with the chaos daemons codex, the rules here update, replace, or supplement the rules in your codex.
I'm assuming this means the formations are gtg also. Meaning I can take a Daemon CAD, with an "Infernal Tetrad" formation or even a "Daemon Lord" formation to just tac on an Extra HQ.
Daemon Lord isn't a formation. Its just a command choice for the "decurion-style" detachment
Budzerker wrote: Buddy has the book. You can indeed take a CAD and access the powers, traits ,and artifacts in this book.
It says something to the effect of: This book is designed to be used in conjunction with the chaos daemons codex, the rules here update, replace, or supplement the rules in your codex.
I'm assuming this means the formations are gtg also. Meaning I can take a Daemon CAD, with an "Infernal Tetrad" formation or even a "Daemon Lord" formation to just tac on an Extra HQ.
Daemon Lord isn't a formation. Its just a command choice for the "decurion-style" detachment
Ah well. At least we get access to all the other stuff though.
Does the restriction of up to half of the powers from god's discipline still apply? It was there only to prevent ML3 daemons from having all powers automatically, no that there are 7 powers in each discipline they function exactly as the disciplines in the rulebook. So do the new disciplines supersede the former discipline's restrictions and instead follow the rulebook's paragraph for generating psychic powers?
I think they don't, as these are different disciplines from the ones in the daemon book, which would replace the whole 2 pages about psychic powers in daemons codex, thus replacing the bit with restriction. and the reason why they didn't write a paragraph is because the 7th edition rulebook already has a paragraph on genetrating psychic powers, so they thought there is no need to write the same twice.
This is quite important, as the Unending Grimoire only functions if warlord generates all powers from tzeentch discipline. (it actually kind of confirms my thoughts, as they thought that its obvious and there is no need to explicitly delete that paragraph...)
RAW the new lores only update/replace the old lores, not the section where it talks about how Daemon Psykers generate their powers. As the lores have the same names the number of powers is still restricted by it RAW unless the supplement says otherwise.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: RAW the new lores only update/replace the old lores, not the section where it talks about how Daemon Psykers generate their powers. As the lores have the same names the number of powers is still restricted by it RAW unless the supplement says otherwise.
I can see your point, but wouldn't the old restriction only apply to the old lores (which were different form the 6th edition standard lores) and new lores would follow the exactly same named and more detailed paragraph in the 7th edition rulebook?
Another point is that the wording of grimoire doesnt make sense with the restriction, as it says that the psyker must generate all of his powerS (plural) from discipline of change which is never an option with that restriction. With that restriction you can only generate all powers when he is Mastery Level 1 and thus has only 1 power...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, i don't think this is a very big problem, as you could always agree with your group/opponent/club to use it RAI, like a lot of other rule debates... And on tournaments and such events you would need to ask their ruling on it beforehand...
I figured that I would write out what I think are the good options that we got from the Wulfen update. Anything I don’t mention I don’t think does anything useful or isn’t competitive.
Relics Paradox: If you roll enough dice (2x-1 where x is the WC cost) you can guarantee a psychic power succeeds once every turn. That is amazing. This will generally save you 2 or so dice and no risk of failure. Very important if you need a critical summon to go off.
Endless Grimoire: With the Change Discipline getting a bunch of excellent powers taking this turns your Warlord into a psychic tool box with a power for any situation. The wording is murky though and its debatable whether you still can only generate ½ of your psyker level in daemon disciplines still but at the worst your Lvl 1 Herald is a tool box of doom.
Impossible Robe: Almost automatic invincible Lord of Change. Lord of Changes have always been excellent combat monster with S8 from staff of change and psychic buffs making it even better then Bloodthirsters (until D-thirsters anyway). But LoCs issue was unreliable survivability as it was completely dependent on greater rewards on psychic generation to give it the survivability to make it to combat. Now you can guarantee it has an excellent 3++ rerolling 1s invul save and all those greater rerolls and psychic powers serve to further buff a now tough MC. Especially the multiple ways to get +1 invul (rolling Cursed Earth, Tzeentch Warlord Trait, Fighter Ace, Warpstorm) giving a rerollable 2++ making it truly unkillable making its draw back (which only has a 1/6 chance of failing anyway) non-existent.
Grotti the Nurgling: -1 Toughness is good. Makes things take more damage, makes things more vulnerable to Instant Death. Hide in a Drone Deathstar for maximum results IMO.
Doomsday Bell: Army wide -1 LD is also excellent. Combos well with Psychic Shriek spam. I could easily see taking Be’lakor to also get Terrify for cumulative -2LD for Psychic Shriek. Shame it has to actually be on the battlefield but just hide him in the back
Crimson Crown: +1 A bubble to Khorne units. Excellent for Houndstar or an extra attack on a D-thirster
Armor of Scorn: -1 Strength to all attack against the Holder. Basically a pseudo +1 Toughness. Excellent on anything that can take it. Especially on a DP since it functionally makes him immune to Instant Death from S10. Adamantium Will is a nice perk too.
Psychic Powers Change is the winner. Not only are all of its new powers really good (plus it had two solid powers before) but also Tzeentch has two ways to just get all the powers (Endless Grimoire and Fateweaver) thus bypassing the problem the other two have which is unreliably power generation. Both Nurgle and Slaanesh are better off rolling for BRB powers because they just can’t get enough rolls on their gods table to reliably get one of their good powers. Also Change really rounded out their toolbox aspect as each new power has a unique usefulness
Tzeentch’s Warpflare: Great against MSU and GEQ
Boon of Flame: Summoning is always good. Also summons a unit that can shot D3 lascannon shots or a ap3 torrent heavy flamer on the turn it arrives
Prsmatic Gaze: Strength D so now can go after Super Heavies (and FW can use it for Anti-Air too)
Warlord Traits Tzeentch: Again the big winner. 5/6 of these are good. Except for the awful Soul Blaze one they are either increasing survivability (+1 Invul, -1 WS and BS at Walord, Ignoring first Perils each turn) or making you a better Psyker (manifesting on 3+, +1 to Mastery Level). I like the ignoring perils one a lot because if you really need a power to go off and are afraid of DtW you can just chuck a million dice at the power and not have to worry about exploding because of it
Slaanesh: They are all at least alright. Nothing here is as bad as rolling Soul Blaze. The real big one though is Celerity of Slaanesh as it lets you run and charge. That is amazing on a Slaanesh Herald on Steed. They already move 12” and have a d6+6” run with fleet. You move a minimum of 19” a turn putting you 5” away from your opponents deployment zone but you should easily move an extra 2-3 inches putting you right in front of your opponent for a practically guaranteed first turn charge. If you you a running a SeekerStar it is super worth rolling on the Slaanesh table just for the chance at a first turn charge
Detachments and Formations Daemon Incursion (or Incurion as I like to call it): The bonuses are excellent. Daemonic Corruption is basically an alternate Objective Secured as your opponent has to score control of the objective for your daemons to not control it. This means they can’t simply shoot the daemon unit off it to remove control of it from you or you can quickly tag an objective on the way to your opponents. Combo Corruption with Objective Secured and the objective becomes completely un-contestable even to other ObSec unit (take that Eldar Jetbikes). Rerolling Instability really neutralizes the only drawback Daemon Instability had. And +1 or -1 to the Warpstorm is also amazing as it basically makes the Warpstorm have pretty much no negative effects (on a 4 you make it a 5, on a 3 you make it a 2, and 2 basically doesn’t do anything because you now reroll Instability tests). The only issue is that the formation choices are pretty unwieldy as they all have large unit requirements and limit Herald options. Luckily the Furies choice really mitigates the expensive Incurion is but you still have to take a Core Formation. Luckily there are some cheapish MSU formations to take if you really just want those bonuses (which are worth it)
Tallyhorde: This is the MSU formation for taking an Incurion. At its cheapest of 3x7 Nurglings and a Herald of Nurgle its only 360 points making it the cheapest Core formation (though you’ll probably throw in the Doomsday Bell for another 30pts because why not). It really gives the nurglings some excellent bonuses such as denying Overwatch and force units in CC with them to take a LD test or be at -1 Strength and Toughness (Doomsday Bell ftw). It makes the Nurglings great combo charge partners. Plus with Daemonic Corruption they are great an infiltrating onto objectives too. Honestly I don’t see this formation doing anything else because Plaguebearers and Nurglings aren’t threatening on their own they are too slow and don’t pack a punch. But with what it can do it's pretty good.
Warpflame Host: I feel like there is potential for this to be good. Its formation bonuses are real good especially when combed with an Exalted Locus for +2S to psychic shooting. This lets you turn your Herald do amazing shooting tactics. Put him on a disc and fly forward, shoot 4d6 autocannon strength shots (which you can autopass with Paradox) then turbo boost 24” behind a wall for Jump-Shoot-Jump tactics. That’s really strong. The problem is that 9 Tzeentch units you have to take. Each of the 3 choices just have some drawback that seems to hold the formation back. Pink Horrors seem like great choice with the +2S to their witchfires but in 7ed they just aren’t reliable (have to cast, have to not denied, you have a random number of shots and are still only BS3) and 9 units is overkill for a summoning battery. With Flamers you get a cheap jump unit with 3 Heavy Flamers and Deep Strike but there is only so many units they can threaten. Exalted Flamers have amazing shooting (d3 S10 ap2 or a Baleflamer) but their shortish range and inability to move and shoot really holds them back. Your best bet is probably a balance of them or just commiting to Exalted Flamers for being the cheapest and using them for an 18” zone of I will kill you if you go here.
Rotsworm: Is pretty competitive. It lets you take the Plague Drone Deathstar and if you pass a LD test (on LD8 because of Heralds) you get +3 attacks and rerollable charge basically doubling the units damage. The only real downside (because having to charge the closest unit if you fail the Ld test is not a downside) is the 6 of nurgle units you need to take but this can be paid with a 312 pts of 6x individual Beast of Nurgle who will proceed to use a pseudo LicterShame tactic of being an obnoxious MSU unit that sits on Objectives and eats a ton of shooting being T5 4W and Shrouded.
Grand Cavalcade: The ultimate in MSU tactics. 7 cheap as chips chariots for about 315 pts. Yes they are fragile but they can move 33” a turn with the additional 6” on flat out and have a bit of extra punch with an additional d6 S4 rending HoW. If you really need your chariots to kill something then you’ll need to ensure you kill it with the HoW because if you don’t your 1W rider is going to get punched out. But that’s not the main priority. You’re supposed to grab objectives with Corruption and make you opponent waste units dealing with such a cheap unit with an invul.
Forgehost: Their bonus is pretty solid. Getting rerolls to hit and to wound is always gravy and actually opens up Warp Gaze an a useable option (since a rerollable BS3 S10ap1 shot actually can hit stuff plus with the 3 autocannon shots from the harvester makes Soul Grinders solid at shooting other vehicles). It shouldn’t be hard to kill a single model either. Just take Phlegm or Vomit and you should be able to kill something. Ultimately the weight on this formation is being carried by how good Soul Grinders are and IMO I think they are great (they are very durable for the price, they do good damage in CC and have good gun options, they lack of speed is mitigated by Deep Strike or going Slaanesh) and AV13 makes them basically immune to the mass S6/S7 spam that is pretty popular for handling vehicle right now. But they are also super weak to Grav (as a single Immobilized result really neuters them). YMMV.
Warpflame Host: I feel like there is potential for this to be good. Its formation bonuses are real good especially when combed with an Exalted Locus for +2S to psychic shooting. This lets you turn your Herald do amazing shooting tactics. Put him on a disc and fly forward, shoot 4d6 autocannon strength shots (which you can autopass with Paradox) then turbo boost 24” behind a wall for Jump-Shoot-Jump tactics. That’s really strong. The problem is that 9 Tzeentch units you have to take. Each of the 3 choices just have some drawback that seems to hold the formation back. Pink Horrors seem like great choice with the +2S to their witchfires but in 7ed they just aren’t reliable (have to cast, have to not denied, you have a random number of shots and are still only BS3) and 9 units is overkill for a summoning battery. With Flamers you get a cheap jump unit with 3 Heavy Flamers and Deep Strike but there is only so many units they can threaten. Exalted Flamers have amazing shooting (d3 S10 ap2 or a Baleflamer) but their shortish range and inability to move and shoot really holds them back. Your best bet is probably a balance of them or just commiting to Exalted Flamers for being the cheapest and using them for an 18” zone of I will kill you if you go here.
I agree that those units have drawbacks, but i could live with those drawbacks, my biggest gripe with this formation is that i can't take more than 1 herald, (i don't understand why there isn't a herald formation like the necron royal court for example, as a command option. Hell they could have just said that a heralds of chaos option from the codex is an option for command part of the detachment... ) Basically if i want more tzeentch heralds i would need at least 2 more troops in CAD, which for me as a tzeentch player means at least 198 more points of pink horrors they would get obsec though, which is nice...
Another way i would consider using them is to take 3 of each unit and have instrument + banner in pink horror squads and then chain deepstrike them to get flamers into optimal burning positions and place exalted flamers in each pink horror squad to get more focus onto them instead of the flamers, or just go for deepstriking exalted flamers onto objectives.
I have seen another interesting tactic, but it only works if you have first turn or can steal the initiative, take ahriman (or huron) as warlord, and then infiltrate units with exalted flamers. Shoot ther D3 S10 shots at the enemy, as you infiltrated precisely 18" away... Quite interesting, but very situational...
It would be interesting to run a exalted flamer star: herald with grimoire of true names, unit of pink horrors and 8x exalted flamers deep striking on turn two (another herald having an oracle dais, which is insanely good if you think about it. It is 35 points, but it is a disc of tzeentch on top of the reserve manipulation, which means you autopass a reserve roll for 10 points! On top of that you pass the roll, which means that instrument of chaos still works, so you can automatically bring 2 units from reserve on turn 2). You would need to wait a turn to shoot everything, but they would be a very scary thing ina middle of the table. Also noone will want to assault the with 8D3 S5 AP3 shots on overwatch
As you already mentioned paradox+unending grimoire combo is insanely good, as it allows you to autopass D shot on 5 dice or summon a chariot each turn, which is actually really good, as chariots are very underestimated by a lot of people..
The infiltrate idea is actually really good, since the exalted flamer's attacks get the +1 str from the formation, making each one a miniature heldrake.
hhhdan wrote: Does the restriction of up to half of the powers from god's discipline still apply? It was there only to prevent ML3 daemons from having all powers automatically, no that there are 7 powers in each discipline they function exactly as the disciplines in the rulebook. So do the new disciplines supersede the former discipline's restrictions and instead follow the rulebook's paragraph for generating psychic powers?
I think they don't, as these are different disciplines from the ones in the daemon book, which would replace the whole 2 pages about psychic powers in daemons codex, thus replacing the bit with restriction. and the reason why they didn't write a paragraph is because the 7th edition rulebook already has a paragraph on genetrating psychic powers, so they thought there is no need to write the same twice.
This is quite important, as the Unending Grimoire only functions if warlord generates all powers from tzeentch discipline. (it actually kind of confirms my thoughts, as they thought that its obvious and there is no need to explicitly delete that paragraph...)
I'm really not sure about this one anymore but you might be right about the whole psychic powers section being replaced. The newer codexes don't seem to have details on how to generate powers and so you clearly then refer to the rulebook. I don't have the new book yet but it really depends on how they have prefaced the new psychic powers pages. If it says they replace or update them I'd say the half powers restriction thing no longer applies. If it says they are supplemental then its a bit more dubious but I don't see how they can be supplemental when the original powers are now incorporated in the new tables.
hhhdan wrote: Does the restriction of up to half of the powers from god's discipline still apply? It was there only to prevent ML3 daemons from having all powers automatically, no that there are 7 powers in each discipline they function exactly as the disciplines in the rulebook. So do the new disciplines supersede the former discipline's restrictions and instead follow the rulebook's paragraph for generating psychic powers?
I think they don't, as these are different disciplines from the ones in the daemon book, which would replace the whole 2 pages about psychic powers in daemons codex, thus replacing the bit with restriction. and the reason why they didn't write a paragraph is because the 7th edition rulebook already has a paragraph on genetrating psychic powers, so they thought there is no need to write the same twice.
This is quite important, as the Unending Grimoire only functions if warlord generates all powers from tzeentch discipline. (it actually kind of confirms my thoughts, as they thought that its obvious and there is no need to explicitly delete that paragraph...)
I'm really not sure about this one anymore but you might be right about the whole psychic powers section being replaced. The newer codexes don't seem to have details on how to generate powers and so you clearly then refer to the rulebook. I don't have the new book yet but it really depends on how they have prefaced the new psychic powers pages. If it says they replace or update them I'd say the half powers restriction thing no longer applies. If it says they are supplemental then its a bit more dubious but I don't see how they can be supplemental when the original powers are now incorporated in the new tables.
i will get my book tomorrow, but i've seen people say that it says something along the lines: the rules in this book add to, replace or supplement the rules found in codex:chaos daemons, so nothing clear again... *sigh* I guess that RAI it is quite clear that they would not have that restriction, as it was only there to prevent knowing the whole discipline. RAW just agree with the opponent to play it one way or another explaining to them the whole issue Or ask an event organiser about their ruling on it...
CrownAxe wrote: The problem with pink horrors and witch fires is that they aren't self sufficient. To cast a WC1 flicker fire you need like 3 WCs to get a solid chance of passing it but 11 horrors only make 2 (and if they lose any horrors its only 1 WC). This means each horror squad that wants to shoot siphons another units WCs to cast their FF and then they are still only BS3 with a random number of shots. It just doesn't do enough for how many resources you through at it
ya but you can get the herald or the soul grinder formation and make them reroll to hit and wound, and the herald can provide much more warp charges. i made a list revolving around that i get something like 27 warp charges thats enough for anything, and all i have to use is the tzeentch discipline. honestly im just trying to find a good mono tzeentch army. right now its either screemer star, flying circus and pink horror gunline
It'd be a lot easier to just play Tau and spam missilesides and crisis with missile pods if all you want is a bunch of Str 7 AP 4.
The herald can give them [the horrors] prescience (but only 1 unit) and that eats even further into your warp charge. The soul grinder formation only hands out re-rolls for the soul grinders in the formation, not everything in your army..
True, but using daemons does have some advantage compared to Tau. First of all, they can't be forced to take leadership tests for losing 25% of the squad. Speaking of losing models, every model lost is detrimental to the firepower the Tau can put out. If you want to get rid of the 4D6 Str7 AP4 shots daemons put out, you have to remove the entire squad to the last model. Pink horror squad reduced to 1 model? No sweat, the firepower is still the same as a 20 man squad provided the Herald is still alive somewhere and the model is in range of the Locus bubble.
Reavas wrote: I've always wanted to run the masque of slannesh, she seems incredibly situational but considering nowadays us daemon players can take around 4 other seperate HQ units, her incredibly low cost and fun abilities (re-rolls on inv save and the 3 incredible dances anyone???) Means people might actually consider fielding her, after all making a unit unable to overwatch and reducing their ballistic skill to 1 is invaluble in alot of situations. The only reason I don't see her on the field is her 2 wounds, they really should allow her to join groups of daemonettes
In addition throwing in a Grimoire meams she can get 3+ re-rollable invunerability saves
I also like masque. I used to field her together with a keeper in the HQ slots but as you say it was hard to say no to heralds. I only play mono slaanesh when I play daemons. This is what Im thinking right now (I have all the models to field this already).
I like the list and Masque. But wouldn't she be better taken in a CAD, with 2 MSU Daemonette units. If you take her in the Flayertroupe, you're missing out on the Locus of Beguilement bubble effects on your daemonettes and fiends.
I'm not sure, if you compare the masque to a 75 point herald, assuming you would pack a loci of beguilement the masque will give you more bang for your buck, her debuffs are almost just as effective as the loci and thats not even including her awesome statline (not including those gakky woumds lol) only downside is she can't join units, which I wish they had changed but there is little love for her from the GW. She is also less prone to kaboomy large blasts which is nice. She is also better in for fiend based lists rather than daemonettes
Another good question is what fiend to daemonette ratio is best when forming the flayertroupe.
Masque has all the right powers. The problem is how to best use her. Fortunately she best employed in a Daemon Bomb, which also happens to be the best way to employ the Flayertroupe anyway. She drops in with off an icon preferable with Cursed Earth or Grimore support and casts Dace of Dreaming. Multi-charge or dual charge everything. If you have Chariots and Seekers attacking and scoring objectives 2nd or perhaps even first turn with the right warlord trait. Along with a mass drop of Daemonettes and MC's using icons and instruments right in the enemies face. Target priority issues may allow her to survive long enough to get a second turn of her powers off.
I still think the Beguilement herald is better in the Flaytroupe though. Because she can only effect a single unit and none of her powers actually help in the assault or follow combat turns. If I'm multi-charging I'm giving up my charge bonus. If I'm charging trough cover I'm at best striking simultaneously even with Fiend support. Over-watch isn't the issue cause the fiend units can eat that. Making those hits and rends is what matters so next turn of combat when I'm striking at I5 I finish them off and preserve the unit's strength. That's where beguilement wins out. You might even want to take some Rapturous standards to really make that first combat swing in your favor.
On the number of Fiends I'd say at lest 2-3 MSU squads, and at least 2 maxed out Daemonettes squads, 1-2 MSU Daemonettes squads held in reserve to deep strike onto obectives or countering enemy deep strikers.
Armor of Scorn: -1 Strength to all attack against the Holder. Basically a pseudo +1 Toughness. Excellent on anything that can take it. Especially on a DP since it functionally makes him immune to Instant Death from S10. Adamantium Will is a nice perk too.
On the Armour of Scorn, if you're not taking any of the other new relics on a Khorne Prince then this is an almost auto-take. It costs 20pts to take Warp-Forged Armour (ie a 3+ save) anyway, but for 10 more points you can get the Armour of Scorn and get a 3+ as well as the -1S to incoming attacks and Adamantium will.
Just realized something about using the Exalted Flamer as an Area Denial Tool: With the Incurion effect, you can touch an objective and then get the hell out with your troops. Meaning, that anything in range of the flamers has to worry about getting burninated if it tried to take the objective back, allowing you to focus on midfield objective control as your opponent tries to figure out how to get the objective out of the literal firing lane.
I'll be trying a 2000 pt list this next weekend against a buddy.
I'll be trying a mono nurgle list with Tallyband and Rotswarm and a Great Unclean one Warlord.
The new warlord trait gives the GUO even more survivability and I'm trying to figure out which new equipment to give him.
50 Plaguebearers (4 squads)
9 Nurglings (3 squads)
6 Beasts (all separate)
9 Drones (one star)
and GUO is about 1500 base so I have 500 pts to play with on upgrades.
Greetings all. As a mono-khorne daemons player, I find the khartoth bloodhunger blade intriguing.
I can't quite figure out what the weapon is designed to do. Is it a tarpitting device to take powerful enemy units off the board for a turn or two? Because it is very unlikely a model will actually be destroyed at the end of the game with the 4+ roll to return every turn, unless it's removed right near the end of the game. I guess you could get a wound on a Smashfether CM and delay it for a turn or two, but it just seems slightly odd. I'm trying to figure out what the designers were intending. It sort of feels like the return roll really should have been 6+ instead. If anything, it seems like it'd need to be on a DP to be effective. The strength boost is at least nice against vehicles.
I presume only enemy units that SURVIVE the unsaved wounds can return to play? Otherwise it seems pretty stupid. It's also not clear whether models removed from the board return as single-model units. Thanks for any thoughts.
Is the Dronestar even good anymore? It's true power was in tarpitting Deathstars with extreme prejudice while other stuff cleaned up the board, but in the world of SHVs and GCs that doesn't seem as useful.
Swara wrote: I'll be trying a 2000 pt list this next weekend against a buddy.
I'll be trying a mono nurgle list with Tallyband and Rotswarm and a Great Unclean one Warlord.
The new warlord trait gives the GUO even more survivability and I'm trying to figure out which new equipment to give him.
50 Plaguebearers (4 squads)
9 Nurglings (3 squads)
6 Beasts (all separate)
9 Drones (one star)
and GUO is about 1500 base so I have 500 pts to play with on upgrades.
You have to take two Heralds as part of those Formations, so that's around another 200-300 pts accounted for as well, depending on how you kit them out.
Other than that, I want to see how that works out for you. I wanted to take something similar, but with less Plague Bearers, and more Soul Grinders at 2,000pts.
ArikTaranis wrote: Greetings all. As a mono-khorne daemons player, I find the khartoth bloodhunger blade intriguing.
I can't quite figure out what the weapon is designed to do. Is it a tarpitting device to take powerful enemy units off the board for a turn or two? Because it is very unlikely a model will actually be destroyed at the end of the game with the 4+ roll to return every turn, unless it's removed right near the end of the game. I guess you could get a wound on a Smashfether CM and delay it for a turn or two, but it just seems slightly odd. I'm trying to figure out what the designers were intending. It sort of feels like the return roll really should have been 6+ instead. If anything, it seems like it'd need to be on a DP to be effective. The strength boost is at least nice against vehicles.
I presume only enemy units that SURVIVE the unsaved wounds can return to play? Otherwise it seems pretty stupid. It's also not clear whether models removed from the board return as single-model units. Thanks for any thoughts.
I think its worded as any unsaved wound, it can get shunted into deepstrike. So, you nick a multiwound character with it, either rip it away from its unit, and/or force it to risk deepstrike mishaps. It's a weird item though, for sure.
A unit from the Daemonic Incursion formation with the Daemonic Corruption rule captures an objective but then stays on it. It seems in this situation that even if an enemy unit moves within 3" they can't contest the objective as the rule states the objective counts as controlled by the Daemons until the enemy cleanses it by controlling it. Obviously this wouldn't apply if the enemy unit was ObSec but does this seem correct? If so this makes the Daemonic Corruption rule more powerful than I first thought.
Tonberry7 wrote: A unit from the Daemonic Incursion formation with the Daemonic Corruption rule captures an objective but then stays on it. It seems in this situation that even if an enemy unit moves within 3" they can't contest the objective as the rule states the objective counts as controlled by the Daemons until the enemy cleanses it by controlling it. Obviously this wouldn't apply if the enemy unit was ObSec but does this seem correct? If so this makes the Daemonic Corruption rule more powerful than I first thought.
Yes that is correct. If you also happen to have placed your own ObSec unit on a corrupted objective then that objective is completely uncontestable even by other ObSec units
So If I kit a Herald out with the Doomsday Bell (-1 Leadership for all enemy units), I was thinking about how much better units of Plague Bearers will be as part of the Tallyban if enemy mele units are at -1 Toughness and Strength.
Standard MEQ units will fail the Leadership test almost 50% of the time, and when they fail, PB's will be wounding on 3+, and only take a wound back on 5+. Units that don't have ATSKNF or Fearless will be screwed, and have to take two Leadership tests at -1 LD at the start of combat (one for Enfeebling Nausea and one for Fear).
That seems pretty darn good. They won't be killing things quickly, but PB got a good bump in combat with that rule combined with that Artifact.
I am contemplating using the warpflame host for at least 6 exalted flamers deepstriking. How effective do you guys think this is? The enemy has 1 turn to deal with them before hell breaks loose. If they commit firepower to them, your other units are less harassed and odds are they are overkilling a 50 point model.
I really wish Heralds of Khorne could have taken the Skullcutter D weap.
ArikTaranis wrote: Greetings all. As a mono-khorne daemons player, I find the khartoth bloodhunger blade intriguing.
I can't quite figure out what the weapon is designed to do. Is it a tarpitting device to take powerful enemy units off the board for a turn or two? Because it is very unlikely a model will actually be destroyed at the end of the game with the 4+ roll to return every turn, unless it's removed right near the end of the game. I guess you could get a wound on a Smashfether CM and delay it for a turn or two, but it just seems slightly odd. I'm trying to figure out what the designers were intending. It sort of feels like the return roll really should have been 6+ instead. If anything, it seems like it'd need to be on a DP to be effective. The strength boost is at least nice against vehicles.
I presume only enemy units that SURVIVE the unsaved wounds can return to play? Otherwise it seems pretty stupid. It's also not clear whether models removed from the board return as single-model units. Thanks for any thoughts.
You know, there's an interesting thing.
If you challenge an IC and wound him, he gets removed and put into DS. The rest of the wounds leak over into the unit.
The unit loses the high Ld often associated with ICs + the combat result is more in favour of the Daemons, resulting in more combats won.
Another use is removing buff bubbles (e.g. Psykers) from the board to reduce the opponents board control.
The Bell Of The End Of The World is going to be very nasty. I'm looking at doing a Daemons of the Ruinstorm force for Horus Heresy, so leadership is an even bigger deal since very few armies have fearless - between a fear test with a Ld penalty and the defensive grenades' blind attack, there's a pretty damn good chance of enemies being stuck at WS1, which gives me the upper hand.
So I have a dilemma. I like the idea of some of these formations and their detachment rules are AWESOME. However, despite having over 3000pts of Deamons, I cannot field a SINGLE one of the formations.
I could maybe do the Infernal Tetrad if I demote all 4 of my Greater Daemons to be Princes instead. But since I play undivided lists, I don't have enough of any 1 daemon alignment to field any of the Basic Formations.
This is what I have that could fit the Basic formations:
Khorne: Jugger Herald, 24 Flesh Hounds, 10 Bloodletters
Slaanesh: 20 Daemonettes
Tzeentch: Disc Herald, 24 Pink Horrors
Nurgle: 6 Nurglings
As you can see, Khorne is the only option I even have half the units for the formation. SInce Nurgle is the cheapest, I would be willing to get the models to flesh out that formation, but is it worth it? Or should I just stick with a CAD and take advantage of the new relics and powers?
^ i think you should use the tallyband and proxy some things for nurgle or you could do the same with the other formations, see what you like hopefully your local store is a bit more lenient than mine
Automatically Appended Next Post: ok so i tried my list this is how it went:
my list:
tallyband:
herald with bell
7xnurglings
furies:
5xfuries
tetrad:
khorne, d axe, blade of blood, wings
tzeentch, impossible robes, ml3, wings, warlord
nurgle, balesword, ml3 , wings
slaanesh, double lash of dispair,ml3
d thirster
i played against triple riptide, double stormsurge and drone formation
ok so for warlord i got +1 invuln so everything here has a 4++, i deployed first and out of sight, i used all the tzeentch powers for the daemon prince of tzeentch, he got flickering, the d, and the small blast. nurgle got phsycic shriek, invis and iron arm. slaanesh got iron arm, cursed earth and summoning. we played the missions from lvo. we decided that he would win kill points and i would win malestorm
turn 1:
moved nurgle, tzeentch towards the marker drones, moved khorne DP and BT towards the riptides, slaanesh moved to cover. for psychic phase nurgle casted invis on d-thirster, and then psychic shrieked the drones managing to kill 5 out of the 16 drones. then flickering fire killed another 3. finally i casted iron arm on the slaanesh prince and then the d shot at the riptide, and the best thing happned, by pure luck i managed to take the thing out! slaanesh took a couple of shots at the marker drones and only killed one. with that he lost 9 marker drones and a riptide. The opponent planted anchors fired all of his marker drones at the tzeentch daemon prince then proceeded to melt the ever living sh*t out of my daemon prince, so he got warlord, the riptides brought down my khorne DP to one wound. malestorm 2-1 for daemons
turn 2:
all princes landed, all nurglings deepstruck at objs. phsychic phase, iron arm on nurgle prince and slaanesh prince, invis on BT, slaanesh cursed earth on the nurgle prince. slaanesh shot with the lashes at the marker drones and took them all out with a lucky 20 on 4d6. d-thirster charged the riptides, and fortunately he only took one wound from overwatch, since the riptides were a squad and there were only two of them i killed them both with 3 6s to wound. slaanesh prince charged stormsurge and did 3 wounds but then took 2 in return. in retaliation, stormsurge d-ed my nurgle and smashed my slaanesh prince without a single wound dealt. then the single storm surge shot at my khorne daemon prince and murdered it with 4d6 missles. malestorm 3-2 (i rolled pretty bad for malestorm)
turn3:
right now i have just the d-thirster and 7 nurglings, i moved my d-thirster as close as i could to the stormsurges but he failed the charge. storm surges d-ed the bloodthirster and then proceeded to take out the 4 nurglings in their objs. so with that i only had the nurgle herald and the 2 nurglings in my deployment so i decided to consiede.
kill points 4-8 tau
malestorm 3-5 tau
thats it. my opinions are that the tetrad formation is honestly not that good, i played as hard as i could, and i tried a different list where it was a tzeentch flying circus and i managed to table him in 4 turns, the d thirster and belkor combo is superior. khorne princes are garbage, nurgle are ok but are too slow, the only princes that did something was the tzeentch prince and the slaanesh prince, but the d-thirster was the only one that made his points back.
The Khrone & Nurgle ones are worth trying for sure, I just wish the formations weren't "Herald + 6-9 UNITs". I like the "sacred Number" idea, but I think they could have done something more like Daemonkin and allowed unit minimums to be the sacred number.
Like the Tzeentch Formation could have been:
1 Helard
9 Horrors
9 Flamers (or 3x3 Flamers)
9 Screamers (or 3x3 Screamers).
Oh well. I guess I'll have to paly around with a CAD for a while. I was already fielding a LoC as my Warlord, so that Impossibility Robe looks mighty appealing. So does the Skullreaver for a BloodThirster.
I really want to make a list with 1 of each Greater Deamon (2x CAD). Are there any stand out options for a KoS or GUO?
EDIT:
I just read that report. How the heck did he manage to kill a FLYING 2++ rerollable Tz Prince?????
Swara wrote: I'll be trying a 2000 pt list this next weekend against a buddy.
I'll be trying a mono nurgle list with Tallyband and Rotswarm and a Great Unclean one Warlord.
The new warlord trait gives the GUO even more survivability and I'm trying to figure out which new equipment to give him.
50 Plaguebearers (4 squads)
9 Nurglings (3 squads)
6 Beasts (all separate)
9 Drones (one star)
and GUO is about 1500 base so I have 500 pts to play with on upgrades.
You have to take two Heralds as part of those Formations, so that's around another 200-300 pts accounted for as well, depending on how you kit them out.
Other than that, I want to see how that works out for you. I wanted to take something similar, but with less Plague Bearers, and more Soul Grinders at 2,000pts.
oops, you are right. I have the 45 base points in my 1500 estimate - so I'll just have to beef them up.
I think I would use more nurglings if I could, but I'm just using what I have.
Galef wrote: The Khrone & Nurgle ones are worth trying for sure, I just wish the formations weren't "Herald + 6-9 UNITs". I like the "sacred Number" idea, but I think they could have done something more like Daemonkin and allowed unit minimums to be the sacred number.
EDIT:
I just read that report. How the heck did he manage to kill a FLYING 2++ rerollable Tz Prince?????
---
they all landed, and he rolled a 6 so no invuln, and it was also markered
Automatically Appended Next Post: ^ sorry the prince did not land he was in the air but the marker drones made the storm surges fire at bs 3
Shame you didnt have much luck with the tetriad, I am really excited to try it but now I am a tad worried lol.
Looking at it though I believe the power of daemons will continue coming from using the CAD, too many of the formations pigeon hole you into one play style and the joy of daemons is being able to constantly switch things up without switching the list. Thankfully the new powers, WL traits, and artefacts can be used in a CAD cause my lord do they rock.
To give the formations a shot im thinking the slaanesh ones, a somewhat MSU spam of speed doesnt seem too bad, maybe apply the same idea in a CAD so I can span heralds aswell. Im excited to see slaanesh getting major love
how about the traditional daemon CAD lists? most had two heralds in the dronestar to begin with, and now you can drop your opponents leadership with the one that isn't carrying the locus, right? plus you can make a LoC that is pretty ridiculous in combat.
could any of the formations be made to work similarly to how the standby lists worked, but abuse the new bonuses?
Adding the drone and beasts formation might be good for a list that wanted a drone star list. And for anyone playing tzeentch heavy, their formation makes flamer bombs pretty dang good.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: The Khorne Murderhorde says "1 herald of Khorne." Does this mean we can't use the 4 heralds per 1 choice of herald as per usual?
Formations don't use HQ slots which is what we have permission to put 4 heralds in
I can't seem to decide which will be better for him. Both are awesome, and have their strengths.
Don't need to choose when making a list, unless you're really strapped for points. Take Corruption and a Greater Reward. If you look at the opponent and feel you need ID over auto-wound, take the Balesword. If not, take another Reward.
Being flexible with Rewards and Powers is one of the biggest strengths of Daemons imo. Your lists become very close to TAC just by having the ability to swap around for weapons or roll on different tables/take primaris powers.
I can't seem to decide which will be better for him. Both are awesome, and have their strengths.
Don't need to choose when making a list, unless you're really strapped for points. Take Corruption and a Greater Reward. If you look at the opponent and feel you need ID over auto-wound, take the Balesword. If not, take another Reward.
Being flexible with Rewards and Powers is one of the biggest strengths of Daemons imo. Your lists become very close to TAC just by having the ability to swap around for weapons or roll on different tables/take primaris powers.
That seems like such a waste of points though. I can see the argument for flexibility when you're choosing an item from the same category, like Greater or Lesser Gifts. Roll for it, and take the default weapon if you don't like your roll, but these two weapons seem to be good for different targets. I would have rather had Corruption the last time I fought a Death Wing Knight army with all those single wound terminators, but the Balesword is awesome for killing multi wound non GMC's.
Admittedly, I haven't been playing Daemons that long, so maybe I need to change that perception if that's the consensus way to pick upgrades.
Don't need to choose when making a list, unless you're really strapped for points. Take Corruption and a Greater Reward. If you look at the opponent and feel you need ID over auto-wound, take the Balesword. If not, take another Reward.
Being flexible with Rewards and Powers is one of the biggest strengths of Daemons imo. Your lists become very close to TAC just by having the ability to swap around for weapons or roll on different tables/take primaris powers.
This. Between Psychic Powers, Rewards, and Warlord Traits, a Daemon army can drastically change in capabilities between games. The ability to - as noted above - take a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh and go "you know what, I think I'm gonna play dogfighter" and take a pair of Lashes and pretend he's a winged hive tryant one game, then turtle up behind two defensive rewards the next game is very useful.
The biggest bonus is the fact that the Hellforged Artefacts don't take up gift allowances. Therefore I can take a Great Unclean One and roll both and keep both as toughness boosting gitts and only take a magic weapon if you feel you need the extra attack & reroll to hit.
The Impossible Robes are amazing. Combined with the inevitable kung-fu stick of exploding people, it makes the Lord Of Change an incredibly dangerous melee opponent.
Don't need to choose when making a list, unless you're really strapped for points. Take Corruption and a Greater Reward. If you look at the opponent and feel you need ID over auto-wound, take the Balesword. If not, take another Reward.
Being flexible with Rewards and Powers is one of the biggest strengths of Daemons imo. Your lists become very close to TAC just by having the ability to swap around for weapons or roll on different tables/take primaris powers.
This. Between Psychic Powers, Rewards, and Warlord Traits, a Daemon army can drastically change in capabilities between games. The ability to - as noted above - take a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh and go "you know what, I think I'm gonna play dogfighter" and take a pair of Lashes and pretend he's a winged hive tryant one game, then turtle up behind two defensive rewards the next game is very useful.
The biggest bonus is the fact that the Hellforged Artefacts don't take up gift allowances. Therefore I can take a Great Unclean One and roll both and keep both as toughness boosting gitts and only take a magic weapon if you feel you need the extra attack & reroll to hit.
The Impossible Robes are amazing. Combined with the inevitable kung-fu stick of exploding people, it makes the Lord Of Change an incredibly dangerous melee opponent.
Agreed here, except that you can't take double lashes
Tonberry7 wrote: A unit from the Daemonic Incursion formation with the Daemonic Corruption rule captures an objective but then stays on it. It seems in this situation that even if an enemy unit moves within 3" they can't contest the objective as the rule states the objective counts as controlled by the Daemons until the enemy cleanses it by controlling it. Obviously this wouldn't apply if the enemy unit was ObSec but does this seem correct? If so this makes the Daemonic Corruption rule more powerful than I first thought.
Yes that is correct. If you also happen to have placed your own ObSec unit on a corrupted objective then that objective is completely uncontestable even by other ObSec units
How would this work? sorry can you explain it to me because I have a friend that says that it does not work.
Tonberry7 wrote: A unit from the Daemonic Incursion formation with the Daemonic Corruption rule captures an objective but then stays on it. It seems in this situation that even if an enemy unit moves within 3" they can't contest the objective as the rule states the objective counts as controlled by the Daemons until the enemy cleanses it by controlling it. Obviously this wouldn't apply if the enemy unit was ObSec but does this seem correct? If so this makes the Daemonic Corruption rule more powerful than I first thought.
Yes that is correct. If you also happen to have placed your own ObSec unit on a corrupted objective then that objective is completely uncontestable even by other ObSec units
How would this work? sorry can you explain it to me because I have a friend that says that it does not work.
Claim an objective with a Daemonic Corruption unit then move an Ob Sec unit onto it to babysit it. Normally if an enemy obsec unit moved into range the objective would be contested, but because it has been corrupted it remains controlled by the Daemons until an enemy unit controls it. Because you now have an obsec unit there the only way for the enemy to take it out of Daemon control is to wipe out that unit whilst themselves being in range of it. Or at least kill enough so that the remainder are out of range of the objective.
When an HQ slot is available and you want to take a FMC, what do you think of the choice between a Prince or a LoC?
Prince gets:
-3+ armor
-Ability to roll on Bio/Telepathy
-Higher WS/Initiative
LoC gets:
-Lower point cost
-Higher Toughness and Wounds
WS/Initiative hit doesn't matter that much since 6s in both is generally higher than most things other than Daemon Princes. Toughness is a big deal since it means no more S10 ID, and the extra Wound helps as well.
Losing 3+ can be a big hit against small arms fire, but it can be made up quite easily. Grimoire is an obvious jump, but you can also do things like throw Shrouding on him for a 2+ Jink rerolling, or take Impossible Cloak for 3++ (bump to 2++ with Cursed Earth or Warp Storm) rerolling. The Cloak downside isn't so big considering how hard it will be to fail a save, LD9 only having a 1/6 chance of failing, and a possible Fatey reroll on the LD test if it does fail.
Losing Bio/Telepathy is kind of big, but let's be honest he's probably rolling on Malefic anyway and Div is pretty good as a secondary choice as-is.
Compared to a Tzeentch Prince, I think it's a reasonable alternative. Of course, there's always reasons to take a Nurgle prince over him (Balesword and Corruption are quite good), but I think even then it's a consideration to make. What do you think? Do you always go for the Prince or do you consider the LoC when list building?
I always go LoC over a Prince. The extra survivability is amazing, and that was before the option of Impossibility robes. I even prefer a LoC over Fatey (Blasphemy, I know).
I always field Belakor and my favorite tactic to fly him up, jump the LoC up. both behind a large Hound unit. I cast Shrouding, then Invis on the Hounds. My 2 units of Screamers turboboost in range of Belakor for the Shrouding.
Now I have 2 FMCs with 2+ jink, one of which re-rolls that and is place to charge next turn, 2 screamer units with 2+ re-rolling jinks and an Invisible Hound unit that has Shroud for those stray Blast markers that drift their way.
Bonus points if I manage to get both of my Grinders in cover and in that ball of Doom
Unless I am missing something it is now possible to have a DP with mark of khorne in a tetrad, roll on the tzeenetch warlord table and give it a mastery level and make it a psyker
gg gw.
gg
I like that they are trying to make the slaaneshi chariots work, but their problem is the av 11 open toppped and no weapon, if they suffer an immobilized result they are useless. If they suffer a weapon destroyed result, because they have no weapon they are now immobilized and useless. Being open topped you get +1 on the chart so most of the time they get penned by any shot they are either destroyed or sitting immobilized. This of course is a problem with a lot of vehicles....but given this one has no weapons its pretty bad. The burning chariot for tzeenetch is not as bad since you can still shoot off psychic powers or exalted flamer shots.
One of the interesting things the large # of units you can take for the formations/core choices is MSU. Can pull out a lot of MSU under things like ITC/ETC which limit how many detachments/formations you can take with the new daemon detachment.
Well, chariots can't get immobilised, they automatically downgrade it to stunned, which just makes them useless for 1 turn as opposed to the rest of the game, but still quite bad.
The good part about slashes have chariots is that they are so cheap, much like ironstrider dragoons from skitarii.
Folks are talking about how cool the exalted flamers could be if they had a kind of relentless. Doesn't sticking them on the chariot give them amazing mobility without compromising their firepower? So for a majority of your army you take a unit of screamers with book herald, a bunch of sky chariots and a cheap core with a lord of change. The points probably are iffy, but jink and a 5+ invuln aren't bad in terms of defense. You still lose out on the +1S though, right? That's a bummer.
Folks are talking about how cool the exalted flamers could be if they had a kind of relentless. Doesn't sticking them on the chariot give them amazing mobility without compromising their firepower? So for a majority of your army you take a unit of screamers with book herald, a bunch of sky chariots and a cheap core with a lord of change. The points probably are iffy, but jink and a 5+ invuln aren't bad in terms of defense. You still lose out on the +1S though, right? That's a bummer.
Well you would still need a core formation, as the skyhost is auxiliary... even if it was core (which would be great) it is still very expensive, as if you want to take 1 big screamer squad (up to 225 points) nd the rest with chariots (so 800 points) plus a herald, it comes down to 1100-1200 points. and you cant take LOC unless you take a core formation which at the smalest is ~400 points for nurglings.
I am tempted to try running 1 big squad of screamers and the rest in 3-screamer squads plus a herald with a locus of change (maybe a couple of chariots not to have too many screamers), as it would set the strength of each unit at the start of the turn (different for each unit), it would dictate if said unit charges or slash attacks this turn, probably not competitive, but hilarious and awesome to see a see of skyrays just flying about
Folks are talking about how cool the exalted flamers could be if they had a kind of relentless. Doesn't sticking them on the chariot give them amazing mobility without compromising their firepower? So for a majority of your army you take a unit of screamers with book herald, a bunch of sky chariots and a cheap core with a lord of change. The points probably are iffy, but jink and a 5+ invuln aren't bad in terms of defense. You still lose out on the +1S though, right? That's a bummer.
reason why exalted flamers would be great if they had relentless is firstly because they are independent characters, so can hide in a unit and be more survivable than the AV10 chariot, secondly because they are smaller than the chariot, so can be deepstruck easier and hidden easier. Thirdly they are less expensive (half the cost). Dont get me wrong i love using burning chariots, especially when my opponents try to kill it with small arms fire like bolters and stuff like that, i had a chariot with 1HP and 1 wound remaining on a rider several times and it is hilarious but if the exalted flamer would have relentless i would use him so much more and probably more than the chariot even if he was like 60-65 points instead of 50...
Galef wrote: I always go LoC over a Prince. The extra survivability is amazing, and that was before the option of Impossibility robes. I even prefer a LoC over Fatey (Blasphemy, I know).
I always field Belakor and my favorite tactic to fly him up, jump the LoC up. both behind a large Hound unit. I cast Shrouding, then Invis on the Hounds. My 2 units of Screamers turboboost in range of Belakor for the Shrouding.
Now I have 2 FMCs with 2+ jink, one of which re-rolls that and is place to charge next turn, 2 screamer units with 2+ re-rolling jinks and an Invisible Hound unit that has Shroud for those stray Blast markers that drift their way.
Bonus points if I manage to get both of my Grinders in cover and in that ball of Doom
How are you giving more than 1 unit shrouding with Belakor?
Edit: Wait, I was thinking he has shrouding. I forgot that the Shrouding pskyer power is a 6" bubble. He does have shrouding naturally, am I right? I was mixing up both rules
Galef wrote: I always go LoC over a Prince. The extra survivability is amazing, and that was before the option of Impossibility robes. I even prefer a LoC over Fatey (Blasphemy, I know).
I always field Belakor and my favorite tactic to fly him up, jump the LoC up. both behind a large Hound unit. I cast Shrouding, then Invis on the Hounds. My 2 units of Screamers turboboost in range of Belakor for the Shrouding.
Now I have 2 FMCs with 2+ jink, one of which re-rolls that and is place to charge next turn, 2 screamer units with 2+ re-rolling jinks and an Invisible Hound unit that has Shroud for those stray Blast markers that drift their way.
Bonus points if I manage to get both of my Grinders in cover and in that ball of Doom
How are you giving more than 1 unit shrouding with Belakor?
Edit: Wait, I was thinking he has shrouding. I forgot that the Shrouding pskyer power is a 6" bubble. He does have shrouding naturally, am I right? I was mixing up both rules
Galef wrote: I always go LoC over a Prince. The extra survivability is amazing, and that was before the option of Impossibility robes. I even prefer a LoC over Fatey (Blasphemy, I know).
I always field Belakor and my favorite tactic to fly him up, jump the LoC up. both behind a large Hound unit. I cast Shrouding, then Invis on the Hounds. My 2 units of Screamers turboboost in range of Belakor for the Shrouding.
Now I have 2 FMCs with 2+ jink, one of which re-rolls that and is place to charge next turn, 2 screamer units with 2+ re-rolling jinks and an Invisible Hound unit that has Shroud for those stray Blast markers that drift their way.
Bonus points if I manage to get both of my Grinders in cover and in that ball of Doom
How are you giving more than 1 unit shrouding with Belakor?
Edit: Wait, I was thinking he has shrouding. I forgot that the Shrouding pskyer power is a 6" bubble. He does have shrouding naturally, am I right? I was mixing up both rules
He has Shrouded, he can cast Shrouding
What is awesome is that since the power is a bubble that is measured from Belakor, I can cast it when no other unit is near him, then turbo-boost or run into range. I have tricked more than 1 player with this:
Me: "I am casting Shrouding on Belakor. He is the only model in range"
My opponent: "Go for it, I'm not even gonna deny it. Gotta save dice for Invis"
---the rest of my Psychic Phase, hopefully Invis also goes off and isn't denied-------
Me: "Ok now for my shooting phase, both units of Screamers will turboboost into range of Belakor, my Hounds will run, leaving 1-2 Hound in range and the rest in terrain. LoC will also run toward Belakor. Now over half my army has a 2+ jink (most re-rollable) or a 3+ or 2+ terrain save, is flying or Invisible"
My opponent: "WHAT!?!?!?!"
Admittedly, It only works once on the same person. After that I have to roll SOOOO many dice to make sure it goes off. The good news is that now my opponents have to make a tough choice to deny Shrouding or Invis.
Why have I not heard of this strategy!? Haha. I play with a competitive group of guys and I haven't ever played against or heard of this. But it makes sense! I guess no one in my group that plays daemons runs Belakor... so there's that. I'm suggesting this idea and seeing what feedback I get from them.
I honestly think a set up with a primary CAD with Ahriman allied with a formation of two big pink horrors units, each with two exalted flamers added to them and then three flamer bombs. On average both pink horror squads will get to infiltrate because of Ahriman, and then your 4 baleflamers or 4D3 str 9 shots become alot scarier.
Edit: wait, no, you that doesnt totally work. Still, on average a flamer can hide in a horror squad, and the rest can go in a bunker. Doesnt sound terrible to be honest.
Galef wrote: I always go LoC over a Prince. The extra survivability is amazing, and that was before the option of Impossibility robes. I even prefer a LoC over Fatey (Blasphemy, I know).
I always field Belakor and my favorite tactic to fly him up, jump the LoC up. both behind a large Hound unit. I cast Shrouding, then Invis on the Hounds. My 2 units of Screamers turboboost in range of Belakor for the Shrouding.
Now I have 2 FMCs with 2+ jink, one of which re-rolls that and is place to charge next turn, 2 screamer units with 2+ re-rolling jinks and an Invisible Hound unit that has Shroud for those stray Blast markers that drift their way.
Bonus points if I manage to get both of my Grinders in cover and in that ball of Doom
and when you find a tau you die cover against them is like throw a pebble on a wall and demand it crumble , anyway yes against an army without lot of no cover weapons play be'lakor and his shrouding works great, i played last saturday against a marine and in 5 turns i got only 2 wounds on Be'lakor both loc and fatey unwounded and they took lot of fire
what you think at 1500pts tournament where invisibility is bit underpoweder (you can be hit by area/template weapons and in melee oppent just get -1 to hit), have sense just play full flying circus (kairos LOC be'lakor and Tz DP) or take out fatey and run screamers or hounds pack maybe lead by herald? I still think Fatey is very strong also if now he will be not your warlord anymore.
Not really an actual update but worth pointing out that I emailed Reece re: the whole generating half of the Daemon powers limit, and he thought that intent was so abundantly clear that it might not even be worth putting to a vote whether or not the restriction still applies (meaning that he thinks that clearly it does not) so that's cool. Either way, hopefully we'll see it put in an FAQ or a vote sometime soon so that can get put to bed and T8 dronestar can LIVE!
luke1705 wrote: Not really an actual update but worth pointing out that I emailed Reece re: the whole generating half of the Daemon powers limit, and he thought that intent was so abundantly clear that it might not even be worth putting to a vote whether or not the restriction still applies (meaning that he thinks that clearly it does not) so that's cool. Either way, hopefully we'll see it put in an FAQ or a vote sometime soon so that can get put to bed and T8 dronestar can LIVE!
How are you getting T8 drones from the Endless Grimiore?
luke1705 wrote: Not really an actual update but worth pointing out that I emailed Reece re: the whole generating half of the Daemon powers limit, and he thought that intent was so abundantly clear that it might not even be worth putting to a vote whether or not the restriction still applies (meaning that he thinks that clearly it does not) so that's cool. Either way, hopefully we'll see it put in an FAQ or a vote sometime soon so that can get put to bed and T8 dronestar can LIVE!
How are you getting T8 drones from the Endless Grimiore?
I assume he's talking about throwing 3 dice at Plague and hoping to get the +1-3 Toughness power.
hhhdan wrote: Well, chariots can't get immobilised, they automatically downgrade it to stunned, which just makes them useless for 1 turn as opposed to the rest of the game, but still quite bad.
The good part about slashes have chariots is that they are so cheap, much like ironstrider dragoons from skitarii.
I'd agree with that comparison if enemies could only strike the chariots AV11 front armor in assault like the dragoon which is a walker, rather that targeting the squishy T3/5++ save rider in assault. Despite the changes chariots they still have terrible rules. But at least they are a cheap drop.
As a die-hard mono-Slaanesh player I'm really looking forward to trying some of this out. And I have to admit that something I've wondered about at an Apocalyptic, non-Battle Forged scale is now legal in a Battle Forged army. Consider this perfectly legal list:
Secondary Detachment: Forgehost Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Warp Gaze
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent, Warpsword
TOTAL: 1845pts
The Forgehost helps with Flyers and particularly nasty AV vehicles. Everything else takes care of, well, everything else. 11 Chariots, with all those within 12" of the Herald getting MTC. A massive squad of Seekers to keep the Herald going. Everything bearing down on them very, very quickly. Soul Grinders capable of claiming rear objectives for Turn 1 while the Chariots and Seekers claim any mid-table unclaimed objectives, then press forward daring your opponent to decide what to cut down first.
Heck, you can go even more agro with the vehicles and create an entire vehicle list with these two formations. Put your Herald in an Exalted Chariot and replace the Seekers with a fourth Seeker Cavalcade of all Exalted Chariots. Give every Alluress an Etherblade. It does leave your Herald vulnerable to sniping, but you could name one of your cavalcade Alluresses as the Warlord, instead.
No one would expect that. Of course, I don't think anyone could field that, either. lol
luke1705 wrote: Not really an actual update but worth pointing out that I emailed Reece re: the whole generating half of the Daemon powers limit, and he thought that intent was so abundantly clear that it might not even be worth putting to a vote whether or not the restriction still applies (meaning that he thinks that clearly it does not) so that's cool. Either way, hopefully we'll see it put in an FAQ or a vote sometime soon so that can get put to bed and T8 dronestar can LIVE!
How are you getting T8 drones from the Endless Grimiore?
I assume he's talking about throwing 3 dice at Plague and hoping to get the +1-3 Toughness power.
You are correct sir. Sitting at 55 percent chance with 2 ML2 heralds if they can both try twice...33 percent if they can't
Tropic Thunder wrote: As a die-hard mono-Slaanesh player I'm really looking forward to trying some of this out. And I have to admit that something I've wondered about at an Apocalyptic, non-Battle Forged scale is now legal in a Battle Forged army. Consider this perfectly legal list:
Secondary Detachment: Forgehost Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Warp Gaze
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent, Warpsword
TOTAL: 1845pts
The Forgehost helps with Flyers and particularly nasty AV vehicles. Everything else takes care of, well, everything else. 11 Chariots, with all those within 12" of the Herald getting MTC. A massive squad of Seekers to keep the Herald going. Everything bearing down on them very, very quickly. Soul Grinders capable of claiming rear objectives for Turn 1 while the Chariots and Seekers claim any mid-table unclaimed objectives, then press forward daring your opponent to decide what to cut down first.
Heck, you can go even more agro with the vehicles and create an entire vehicle list with these two formations. Put your Herald in an Exalted Chariot and replace the Seekers with a fourth Seeker Cavalcade of all Exalted Chariots. Give every Alluress an Etherblade. It does leave your Herald vulnerable to sniping, but you could name one of your cavalcade Alluresses as the Warlord, instead.
No one would expect that. Of course, I don't think anyone could field that, either. lol
Unfortunatly you need a core detatchment if you want to run those formations and get the bonuses, grand cavalacade is only an auxilary force
Does anyone else think the Formations are good, but didn't need to be Herald + 6-9 units? I like that the Core Formations are like this, but the others did not have to be.
Heck, the Skullcannon formation doesn't require 8 SKullcannons, so why couldn't the others be like this:
Burning Shyhost: Disc/Chariot Herald + 3-9 Screamers or Chariots.
Rotswarm: Herald + 3-7 Beasts or Drones
Grand Cavalcade: Seeker/Chariot Herald + 3-6 Seekers or Chariots.
Tropic Thunder wrote: As a die-hard mono-Slaanesh player I'm really looking forward to trying some of this out. And I have to admit that something I've wondered about at an Apocalyptic, non-Battle Forged scale is now legal in a Battle Forged army. Consider this perfectly legal list:
Secondary Detachment: Forgehost Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Warp Gaze
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent, Warpsword
TOTAL: 1845pts
The Forgehost helps with Flyers and particularly nasty AV vehicles. Everything else takes care of, well, everything else. 11 Chariots, with all those within 12" of the Herald getting MTC. A massive squad of Seekers to keep the Herald going. Everything bearing down on them very, very quickly. Soul Grinders capable of claiming rear objectives for Turn 1 while the Chariots and Seekers claim any mid-table unclaimed objectives, then press forward daring your opponent to decide what to cut down first.
Heck, you can go even more agro with the vehicles and create an entire vehicle list with these two formations. Put your Herald in an Exalted Chariot and replace the Seekers with a fourth Seeker Cavalcade of all Exalted Chariots. Give every Alluress an Etherblade. It does leave your Herald vulnerable to sniping, but you could name one of your cavalcade Alluresses as the Warlord, instead.
No one would expect that. Of course, I don't think anyone could field that, either. lol
Unfortunatly you need a core detatchment if you want to run those formations and get the bonuses, grand cavalacade is only an auxilary force
Here are some guidelines to help
You can take Formations by themselves, you just don't get the Daemonic Incursion benefits of reroll Instability, +/-1 to Warp Storm, or hold objectives. You still get the benefits of the Formations themselves.
Galef wrote: Does anyone else think the Formations are good, but didn't need to be Herald + 6-9 units? I like that the Core Formations are like this, but the others did not have to be.
Heck, the Skullcannon formation doesn't require 8 SKullcannons, so why couldn't the others be like this:
Burning Shyhost: Disc/Chariot Herald + 3-9 Screamers or Chariots.
Rotswarm: Herald + 3-7 Beasts or Drones
Grand Cavalcade: Seeker/Chariot Herald + 3-6 Seekers or Chariots.
Missed opportunity, just sayin'
No, they didn't need to be so big and from a competitive list building point of view it's a little bit annoying. The lower the unit requirements though, the more likely some would begin to cry OP.
From the GW point of view though it's not a missed opportunity, it's a manufactured opportunity to sell a lot more models. I've been collecting Daemons for a while and can only just about manage to field the Warpflame Host. I'm still short of being able to field the other formations apart from the Forgehost.
slamma wrote: The formations also made it quite difficult to field multiple heralds...
Just have to also take a CAD and you get 4 heralds
are you allowed to take an allied detachment with the incursion? an extra group of horrors plus more heralds would be a nice addition to the warp flame host
slamma wrote: The formations also made it quite difficult to field multiple heralds...
Just have to also take a CAD and you get 4 heralds
are you allowed to take an allied detachment with the incursion? an extra group of horrors plus more heralds would be a nice addition to the warp flame host
The only restriction on allied detachments is it can't be the same faction as the primary detachment
I am tempted to play a Warpflame host with only 1 big Pink Horror unit and the rest Flamers and Exalted Flamers. DS the E-flamers on objectives as distractions (snap-firing D3 str 10 shots per drop), and hopping the Flamers, now heavy flamers around the board.
That should give me enough points to field a CAD with he units I want and have some MSU shenanigans.
Otherwise I'll do the Tallyband with a vanilla Herald and all Nurglings.
----------------------
What would have been really cool is if they gave the Core Formations a similar rule as the Fenrisian Wolf formation in the same book: All units in the formation can be deployed as a single unit.
Can you imagine a Hound star with Blood crushers mixed in? Or a huge Deamonette unit with a Few Fiend thrown in?
I'm thinking about using a warp flame host with 3 units of horrors and a 9 man flamer star with a disc herald in it. then go big on the "Daemon Lords" and pack in a witchfire LoC and two beatstick LoCs
Tropic Thunder wrote: As a die-hard mono-Slaanesh player I'm really looking forward to trying some of this out. And I have to admit that something I've wondered about at an Apocalyptic, non-Battle Forged scale is now legal in a Battle Forged army. Consider this perfectly legal list:
Secondary Detachment: Forgehost Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Warp Gaze
Soul Grinder w/ Daemon of Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent, Warpsword
TOTAL: 1845pts
The Forgehost helps with Flyers and particularly nasty AV vehicles. Everything else takes care of, well, everything else. 11 Chariots, with all those within 12" of the Herald getting MTC. A massive squad of Seekers to keep the Herald going. Everything bearing down on them very, very quickly. Soul Grinders capable of claiming rear objectives for Turn 1 while the Chariots and Seekers claim any mid-table unclaimed objectives, then press forward daring your opponent to decide what to cut down first.
Heck, you can go even more agro with the vehicles and create an entire vehicle list with these two formations. Put your Herald in an Exalted Chariot and replace the Seekers with a fourth Seeker Cavalcade of all Exalted Chariots. Give every Alluress an Etherblade. It does leave your Herald vulnerable to sniping, but you could name one of your cavalcade Alluresses as the Warlord, instead.
No one would expect that. Of course, I don't think anyone could field that, either. lol
I really want to run those formations with Mech Emperor's Children. Or Slaaneshi Bikes, Seeker Chariots, and Seekers either running up the board or outflanking.
My plan is to use daemon Summoning with the CAD Tzerald, Fatey and LoC know all Tzeentch powers so they can drop Flamers when needed.
Furies try and grab midfield objectives, Plague Bearers auto pass reserves and bring in Flamers. Horrors babysit back field objectives by ADL with Exalted Flamers and Tzeralds.
So Incursion tap objectives first, CAD ObSec sot and hold. Fatey and LoC fly around causing havoc, summoning Burning Chariots or Flamers if needed.
Not sure how it will work out, I haven't played in a while, so not sure on meta. But this should stop the mad dash to contest objectives at the last turn.
Remember they're not controlled and unable to be contested or controlled. You just retain control until another scoring unit moves within contesting range, even if you move out of contesting range.
Lets you run a zerg rush list that doesn't need to keep any units behind to hold objectives, which is nice. But you also have to hold your lines and hope that your opponent has no alternative deployment options for this to work perfectly.
Quick question, as I'm following this thread with much interest!
Does anyone know if they plan to update the digital Daemons codex with these new formations and rules, similar to the Space Wolf codex, or is it ever only available in the Wulfen campaign?
luke1705 wrote: Remember they're not controlled and unable to be contested or controlled. You just retain control until another scoring unit moves within contesting range, even if you move out of contesting range.
This isn't quite right. They remain controlled by Daemons until the enemy controls it. So if a Daemon unit stays on the objective an enemy just moving into what would normally be a contesting position isn't good enough to take it out of Daemon control.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nordicus wrote: Quick question, as I'm following this thread with much interest!
Does anyone know if they plan to update the digital Daemons codex with these new formations and rules, similar to the Space Wolf codex, or is it ever only available in the Wulfen campaign?
I didn't even know there was a digital Daemons codex. I'm hoping they at least release a digital version of just the Daemons rules from the Wulfen book. I'm not prepared to pay £45 for a book I'm only going to use a dozen or so pages from.
Played the Slaanesh Decurion today in a 1500 point army, I sadly lost because we ended the game on turn 3 due to time constraints but I had no doubt I was going to win if it had gone for the minimum 5 turns I still had 75% of my army left while he only had a Daemon prince, Be'lakor, 3 screamers and a herald.
The extra d6 on the Slaanesh Chariots really helps them remain relevant after suffering a hull point of damage I used them successfully against my opponents flamers to absorb his over watch and to my surprise they actually wiped out his squad before the Daemonettes even got to attack 3d6 auto hits is really nice.
I'm actually thinking of investing in a full chariot army, it is something I've wanted to do for awhile but the maximum 9 chariots made it impossible 2d6 impact hits is far worse than 3d6.
My list 1496
Daemon Lord
Keeper of secrets - 230 (x2 greater reward, soulstealer, mastery 1)
Rydria wrote: Played the Slaanesh Decurion today in a 1500 point army, I sadly lost because we ended the game on turn 3 due to time constraints but I had no doubt I was going to win if it had gone for the minimum 5 turns I still had 75% of my army left while he only had a Daemon prince, Be'lakor, 3 screamers and a herald.
The extra d6 on the Slaanesh Chariots really helps them remain relevant after suffering a hull point of damage I used them successfully against my opponents flamers to absorb his over watch and to my surprise they actually wiped out his squad before the Daemonettes even got to attack 3d6 auto hits is really nice.
I'm actually thinking of investing in a full chariot army, it is something I've wanted to do for awhile but the maximum 9 chariots made it impossible 2d6 impact hits is far worse than 3d6.
My list 1496
Daemon Lord
Keeper of secrets - 230 (x2 greater reward, soulstealer, mastery 1)
Rydria wrote: Played the Slaanesh Decurion today in a 1500 point army, I sadly lost because we ended the game on turn 3 due to time constraints but I had no doubt I was going to win if it had gone for the minimum 5 turns I still had 75% of my army left while he only had a Daemon prince, Be'lakor, 3 screamers and a herald.
The extra d6 on the Slaanesh Chariots really helps them remain relevant after suffering a hull point of damage I used them successfully against my opponents flamers to absorb his over watch and to my surprise they actually wiped out his squad before the Daemonettes even got to attack 3d6 auto hits is really nice.
I'm actually thinking of investing in a full chariot army, it is something I've wanted to do for awhile but the maximum 9 chariots made it impossible 2d6 impact hits is far worse than 3d6.
My list 1496
Daemon Lord
Keeper of secrets - 230 (x2 greater reward, soulstealer, mastery 1)
I ran keeper of secrets with soulstealer and it is fething amazing, make sure you run him with be'lakor though because giving the KoS invis is vital.Turn 1 against sisters of battle he lost 2 wounds after the enemy fired every weapon in his arsenal, turm 3 he killed a squad of 5 and regained all lost wounds and could have continued to slaughter everything he had BUT come the shooting phase I rolled a 3 on the warpstorm table and he blew up... lost me the game
turm 3 he killed a squad of 5 and regained all lost wounds
Wait, does the recovery through Soulstealer work per MODEL that the wielder killed? I thought it would regain 1W at maximum at the end of the combat phase.
Being aside, I tried 2000-pt Flayertroupe + Infernal Tetrad army, which was hillarious. I'm especially satisfied with the Daemonic Incursion bonuses, which gave me two times of Warp Storm 10 and two times of 5 after I manipulated the results . I unfortunately picked Warp Storm 2 in my last turn, but it was nearly negated thanks to re-rolling DI tests. Sharing Exalted Locus of Begulement also worked very well for my lady daemonettes and fiends. (I double-scored SM on that day FYI)
I'd like to run Grand Cavalcade also, but gotta prepare three more chariots for that. Whips of Agony looks good, or fun at least.
Reavas wrote: I ran keeper of secrets with soulstealer and it is fething amazing, make sure you run him with be'lakor though because giving the KoS invis is vital.Turn 1 against sisters of battle he lost 2 wounds after the enemy fired every weapon in his arsenal, turm 3 he killed a squad of 5 and regained all lost wounds and could have continued to slaughter everything he had BUT come the shooting phase I rolled a 3 on the warpstorm table and he blew up... lost me the game
You didn't have to keep the Warp Storm result of a 3. You could've manipulated it to a 2 and rerolled any failed Daemonic Instability rolls thanks to the Daemonic Incursion special rules.
Yes, Soulstealer works on a per model basis, with no other limitations. However, unlike the Exalted Reward Souleater you can only regain lost wounds; rather than building to a max of 10 wounds.
Reavas wrote: I ran keeper of secrets with soulstealer and it is fething amazing, make sure you run him with be'lakor though because giving the KoS invis is vital.Turn 1 against sisters of battle he lost 2 wounds after the enemy fired every weapon in his arsenal, turm 3 he killed a squad of 5 and regained all lost wounds and could have continued to slaughter everything he had BUT come the shooting phase I rolled a 3 on the warpstorm table and he blew up... lost me the game
You didn't have to keep the Warp Storm result of a 3. You could've manipulated it to a 2 and rerolled any failed Daemonic Instability rolls thanks to the Daemonic Incursion special rules.
Sersi wrote: Yes, Soulstealer works on a per model basis, with no other limitations. However, unlike the Exalted Reward Souleater you can only regain lost wounds; rather than building to a max of 10 wounds.
That's still awesome! Thanks for the info - this will really shine KoS, my favorite model.
turm 3 he killed a squad of 5 and regained all lost wounds
Wait, does the recovery through Soulstealer work per MODEL that the wielder killed? I thought it would regain 1W at maximum at the end of the combat phase.
Being aside, I tried 2000-pt Flayertroupe + Infernal Tetrad army, which was hillarious. I'm especially satisfied with the Daemonic Incursion bonuses, which gave me two times of Warp Storm 10 and two times of 5 after I manipulated the results . I unfortunately picked Warp Storm 2 in my last turn, but it was nearly negated thanks to re-rolling DI tests. Sharing Exalted Locus of Begulement also worked very well for my lady daemonettes and fiends. (I double-scored SM on that day FYI)
I'd like to run Grand Cavalcade also, but gotta prepare three more chariots for that. Whips of Agony looks good, or fun at least.
Soulstealer 1 wound is per model, it is crazy, if you have 1 wound and its your turn... your keeper will likely regain all wounds! The downside is keeping the keeper alive untill combat and that is why I run Be'lakor with him, because belakor is snapshots, and a 2+ jink save they will try and aim the keeper, and if you keep invis up... they become some scary unkillable deathstar
Sersi wrote: Yes, Soulstealer works on a per model basis, with no other limitations. However, unlike the Exalted Reward Souleater you can only regain lost wounds; rather than building to a max of 10 wounds.
That's still awesome! Thanks for the info - this will really shine KoS, my favorite model.
I know, right! I would have like a speed boost or to regain H&R. But I'll take it. The best part is you immediately regain those wounds you don't even wait until the end of the phase! Yes, by all means tarpit me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A couple of things:
If you can run a small CAD of Emperor Children along side you Slaaneshi Daemons. The Slaanesh Legacies of Ruin have some really good synergy with Daemons:
- Each Legacy of ruin Grants one vehicle per 1,000 pts the following additional special rules.
- Daemon Engines and Vehicles with Daemonic Possession/Daemonic Resilience are not allowed.
- Each legacy can only be purchased once per army.
- Points cost varies dependent on whether it's a tank, walker or super heavy.
Screams of Lugganath: (+25 pts)
- Grants vehicles Fear against Eldar.
- Its Dirge Casters have a range 12".
- Excellent for supporting the Flayer Troupe.
Vessel of Shayk the Seeker: (+15 pts)
- The vehicles has the Fear USR.
- Enemy units within 12" of an Icon of Excess.
- Must roll an additional D6 and discard the lower result when making any test using LD.
- There's your LD mitigation without having to break theme.
- Excellent synergy with both the Slaanesh, Excess, and Telepathy psychic lore.
Rydria wrote: Played the Slaanesh Decurion today in a 1500 point army, I sadly lost because we ended the game on turn 3 due to time constraints but I had no doubt I was going to win if it had gone for the minimum 5 turns I still had 75% of my army left while he only had a Daemon prince, Be'lakor, 3 screamers and a herald.
The extra d6 on the Slaanesh Chariots really helps them remain relevant after suffering a hull point of damage I used them successfully against my opponents flamers to absorb his over watch and to my surprise they actually wiped out his squad before the Daemonettes even got to attack 3d6 auto hits is really nice.
I'm actually thinking of investing in a full chariot army, it is something I've wanted to do for awhile but the maximum 9 chariots made it impossible 2d6 impact hits is far worse than 3d6.
My list 1496
Daemon Lord
Keeper of secrets - 230 (x2 greater reward, soulstealer, mastery 1)
The board we played on was tiny and had allot of turain which clogged up my armies movement as such he was unable to reach combat. The chariots and Daemonettes did pretty much all the work chariots are pretty good at disloding things out of cover and absorbing overwatch for daemonettes.
Sersi wrote: Yes, Soulstealer works on a per model basis, with no other limitations. However, unlike the Exalted Reward Souleater you can only regain lost wounds; rather than building to a max of 10 wounds.
That's still awesome! Thanks for the info - this will really shine KoS, my favorite model.
I know, right! I would have like a speed boost or to regain H&R. But I'll take it. The best part is you immediately regain those wounds you don't even wait until the end of the phase! Yes, by all means tarpit me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A couple of things:
If you can run a small CAD of Emperor Children along side you Slaaneshi Daemons. The Slaanesh Legacies of Ruin have some really good synergy with Daemons:
Screams of Lugganath: (+25 pts)
- Grants vehicles Fear against Eldar.
- Its Dirge Casters have a range 12".
- Excellent for supporting the Flayer Troupe.
Vessel of Shayk the Seeker: (+15 pts)
- The vehicles has the Fear USR.
- Enemy units within 12" of an Icon of Excess.
- Must roll an additional D6 and discard the lower result when making any test using LD.
- There's your LD mitigation without having to break theme.
- Excellent synergy with both the Slaanesh, Excess, and Telepathy psychic lore.
I have been so hyped about all the new daemon artefacts and powers I havent even thought about the CSM synergy yet. With those legacies of ruin I could be bringing back my slaanesh marines easy! Thank you for the reminder that this can add some new ways to use ol CSM
I am going to tournament tomorrow where I am just experimenting with the new artifacts. I'd like to also take new formations and psychic powers, but I think it's safer to fill the bulk of my army with traitor guard artillery.
I'll be running a decked-out 3++ Lord of Change, a decked-out D-Thirster with the -1 str against enemy attacks armor, and a decked-out Keeper of Secrets with the soulstealer sword. They all have 2x greater gifts.
Is there any way, outside of multiple CADs (or unbound) to bring all four greater daemons to army? I've got an upcoming tourney that doesnt allow duplicate detachment/formations.
McGibs wrote: Is there any way, outside of multiple CADs (or unbound) to bring all four greater daemons to army? I've got an upcoming tourney that doesnt allow duplicate detachment/formations.
McGibs wrote: Is there any way, outside of multiple CADs (or unbound) to bring all four greater daemons to army? I've got an upcoming tourney that doesnt allow duplicate detachment/formations.
The Daemon Decurion can take 4 GDs
Actually it's a formation called 'Infernal Tetrad' consisting of 4 DPs from each god. Though it can be used as a part of Daemonic Incursion, the decurion-style detachment, you can bring the formation in a single detachment for your tourney
EDIT: oh wait, the original article mentioned GD, not DP. In this case, you can bring 4 at maximum from the Command slot of Daemonic Incursion.
McGibs wrote: Is there any way, outside of multiple CADs (or unbound) to bring all four greater daemons to army? I've got an upcoming tourney that doesnt allow duplicate detachment/formations.
The Daemon Decurion can take 4 GDs
To clarify the daemonic decurion formation allows for up to 4 corr units which includds almost all greater daemons, so essencially 4 HQ's
No, it just lets you take 4 leader choices, which have the GDs. You still need a core and an auxiliary, though a Nurgling TallyBand and a unit of furies leaves a ton of points for your big dudes and their upgrades.
Tropic Thunder wrote: You didn't have to keep the Warp Storm result of a 3. You could've manipulated it to a 2 and rerolled any failed Daemonic Instability rolls thanks to the Daemonic Incursion special rules.
I wasn't running daemonic incursion, just CAD
I had to double-check the thread. I thought you ran the list that Rydrias listed. A quick glance at the quoted name and yours ran the letters together. Sorry about that.
- The vehicles has the Fear USR.
- Enemy units within 12" of an Icon of Excess.
- Must roll an additional D6 and discard the lower result when making any test using LD.
- There's your LD mitigation without having to break theme.
- Excellent synergy with both the Slaanesh, Excess, and Telepathy psychic lore.
Thank you for that, I'd never worked out what that horribly typoed rule was trying to say. That makes much more sense.
- Hellflayer: does 2-3D6 S4/AP-/Rending hits resulting in 3.33-5.00 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- The Exalted Alluress has 5 attacks on the charge and with Soulscent will gain +3-5 attacks at I5 vs MEQ.
- She takes the Greater Etherblade for +20 pts to make her attacks: S4/AP2/MC.
- The Alluress’ 8-10X WS5/I5/S4/AP2/Rending Attacks cause 2.67-3.33 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- So on an average charge the Hellflayer kills: 6-8.33 MEQ, or 80-112 pts.
- Basically, it it hits with even 1 HP remaining its make its points back in a single charge; well worth the 60+20 = 80 pts.
Well, see the thing with chariots the close combat rules still blow. They should and either just left them as Cavalry or treated them like bikes so they would give the rider some stat bonuses. Or treated them like walkers, so enemies would have to attack the vehicle and not the rider. As they are now the are pretty resilient to shooting for their cost but you left with the Alluress's T3/5++ save to protect against any return hits. The Seeker chariot's virtue is its cheap but even with 2D6 HOW hits on average it won't wipe out a marine combat squad. A 60 pt Hellflayer isn't any better because if you don't upgrade the Alluress even with 10 attacks S3/AP-/Rending does nothing. But take a greater either blade and she'll wipe a full marine squad with good rolls.
I had a thought about Fiends today. Their -1 LD vs psykers is pretty worthless now. But if they change it to -1 Ld vs enemy units instead in the new codex they be very much worth it.
- Hellflayer: does 2-3D6 S4/AP-/Rending hits resulting in 3.33-5.00 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- The Exalted Alluress has 5 attacks on the charge and with Soulscent will gain +3-5 attacks at I5 vs MEQ.
- She takes the Greater Etherblade for +20 pts to make her attacks: S4/AP2/MC.
- The Alluress’ 8-10X WS5/I5/S4/AP2/Rending Attacks cause 2.67-3.33 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- So on an average charge the Hellflayer kills: 6-8.33 MEQ, or 80-112 pts.
- Basically, it it hits with even 1 HP remaining its make its points back in a single charge; well worth the 60+20 = 80 pts.
2 regular chariots kills more meq than 1 upgraded hellflayer costs 5 points less, is twice as durable, and will get out most of its DPS regardless of charging threw cover.
I think the best way to use them is to just take massed regular chariots in squads of 1 with no upgrades with a herald on chariot with the move threw cover locus to prevent hullpoint loses from turrain. Then you try to charge single units with 2 -4 chariot.
Btw, what do you guys think of the new relic for our rider? Whips of agony look fun but also very situational - I wish if it applied to unit, not a model.
Regarding fiends, in fact I prefer them even to seekers as bodyguards for my herald on steed (I play pure Slaanesh most frequently, so no Khornedogs). S4 rending attacks with beguilement against I1 enemies are actually satisfying for their points. They're also relatively tough against flamer weapons than daemonettes and seekers - my gaming place is full of dreadnaughts with two heavy flamers coming from DP. Just move through covers and avoid S8+ ID attacks.
- Hellflayer: does 2-3D6 S4/AP-/Rending hits resulting in 3.33-5.00 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- The Exalted Alluress has 5 attacks on the charge and with Soulscent will gain +3-5 attacks at I5 vs MEQ.
- She takes the Greater Etherblade for +20 pts to make her attacks: S4/AP2/MC.
- The Alluress’ 8-10X WS5/I5/S4/AP2/Rending Attacks cause 2.67-3.33 unsaved wounds to MEQ.
- So on an average charge the Hellflayer kills: 6-8.33 MEQ, or 80-112 pts.
- Basically, it it hits with even 1 HP remaining its make its points back in a single charge; well worth the 60+20 = 80 pts.
2 regular chariots kills more meq than 1 upgraded hellflayer costs 5 points less, is twice as durable, and will get out most of its DPS regardless of charging threw cover.
I think the best way to use them is to just take massed regular chariots in squads of 1 with no upgrades with a herald on chariot with the move threw cover locus to prevent hullpoint loses from turrain. Then you try to charge single units with 2 -4 chariot.
Oh I agree with your strategy. I was just pointing out that the Hellflayer is no longer pointless, and how to get the most out of it if you have the model. I'm just not sure how often you'll get multiple chariots to dual charge the same squad. The chariot bases are huge, after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slaaneshian wrote: Btw, what do you guys think of the new relic for our rider? Whips of agony look fun but also very situational - I wish if it applied to unit, not a model.
- It’s an S: user and AP5 weapon so and Alluress is not going to wound anyone.
- Unless she rolls a Rend due to the Slaanesh Daemon Rending rule.
- Better for an Alluress to just take a +1S/AP2 Greater Etherblade and simply kill them.
- Than to spend 15 pts to try and stop them from attacking.
- The only really use would be against solo monsters, where you might disable them due to the combination of shred + rending.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: I'm looking at trying the Tzeench core detachment at some point
9 x 11 pink Horrors + Level 3 herald gives you 21 warp charge to play around with
You're also paying 1000 pts for only 21 warp charges (that will go done when you lose any horrors) because horrors do not do anything else
well ok do nothing..... beside evoke tons of stuff, i saw in action that list yesterday with a LOC into it, and that is anything but weak, summons tons of stuff, tz chariots shoot at high strenght ,and it score easily at maelstrom.
blackmage wrote: well ok do nothing..... beside evoke tons of stuff, i saw in action that list yesterday with a LOC into it, and that is anything but weak, summons tons of stuff, tz chariots shoot at high strenght ,and it score easily at maelstrom.
Summoning alone doesn't win games. Summoned unit do no damage on the turn they arrive (except for the new flamer summoning spell and thats not amazing still), don't do much damage when they do, and are easy to kill. A list that is only warp charge generators has no way to kill anything
maybe you should try to play it , chariot DO damage when they enter play, Loc/Dp/Fateweaver do damage since 1st turn, and you play with free units any single turn, i know what i saw, played by a member of ETC Italian team, not for sure a casual player.
blackmage wrote: maybe you should try to play it , chariot DO damage when they enter play, Loc/Dp/Fateweaver do damage since 1st turn, and you play with free units any single turn, i know what i saw, played by a member of ETC Italian team, not for sure a casual player.
i have played it and against actual good armies it loses
Summoning is a strong trick but isnt something an army should be entirely based around. We learned all this back when it was first introduced and everyone thought the sky was falling but then realized full summon lists are all hot air. The loss of even a few warp charges hit them hard and like Crownaxe said, summoned units just dont do much when they hit the field. At best I summon to replace lost units or to summon some quick obj grabbers. The rest of the time im using the warp charges not on summoning but on casting other spells that have more of an impact on what is currently on the table.
Now that the wave of excitement for the new daemon stuff has washed over me I for one will be sticking with the CAD, the new formations are just too bogged down and make playing daemons rather sloppy. The real gem has always been the other new things we got being artefacts, powers, and WL traits. I dont think we will see many new crazy lists but we will start seeing the classics but with new tools.
I played with the following experimental 2000pt Mono-Tzeentch Daemonic Incursion list last night. The main aim was to evaluate how effective the strength bonuses to witchfires were.
So the army had 23WC base, all of the horror units rolled on Malefic, fishing up a few Cursed Earths and various conjuration options.
The Grimoire Herald rolled on Divination taking Prescience and also getting Forewarning.
The LoC also rolled on Divination, again taking Prescience and also getting Precognition.
The Warpflame Herald rolled on Malefic, fishing for Cursed Earth but didn't get it.
I thought it would be needed to get 2 Prescience due to the Horrors BS, and didn't think it was worth fishing on the Change table.
The two Heralds joined the Screamers, basic plan was to maintain a 2++ with Grimoire and Cursed Earth, and also a 2++ on the LoC with the Impossible Robe and Cursed Earth. Warpflame Herald to cast WC3 Flickering Fires using the Paradox, LoC to also cast FF and CC things, and other Horror units to cast FF having been Prescienced as required. Unfortunately the Disc Herald didn't get Cursed Earth but I advanced a good few horror units along with the Screamerstar and LoC into the central area to give Cursed Earth coverage from them and also for FF options. Another setback was the Grimoire failing a couple of times, requiring the use of Forewarning and Cursed Earth to get back to a 3++. The LoC stayed on the ground and casting Precognition was too good to pass up.
What I had expected, and the game more or less confirmed, was that even though there were so many Horror units, it was only really feasible to cast 2x WC3 Flicker Fires after the other powers. To be fair they were putting out around 15ish S7 shots each though. I played a Ravenwing army which was somewhat unfortunate in that they were rocking rerollable jink saves, but Prescienced mass FF shooting was good enough to take a flyer out in one attack which was pleasing. The 2++ LoC was an absolute combat beast though, he was acting as a virtually unkillable fire magnet while squishing many bikes with the +2 Str Staff. Screamerstar was similarly resilient. The Detachment bonuses were generally very good though, the corrupting objectives thing was excellent, and while I never rolled poorly on the Warpstorm the +1/-1 modifier was good insurance. Even the reroll instability tests came in useful when some of my Horror units were assaulted.
In summary the FF witchfire approach was a bit underwhelming, I don't think there is enough of a return on the increased strength shooting for the outlay you have to make on the 9 Tzeentch units. Even with all the Horror WC batteries, mass witchfire just didn't seem sustainable. The Ravenwing matchup wasn't the best in terms of shooting targets though and maybe it would have been more fruitful against a different army. The other point I would make is that it was an absolute PITA to manage so many horror units, keeping track of powers etc. and moving them into suitable positions for Cursed Earth bubbles which also decreased the enjoyment somewhat. This would probably become easier with repeated games though and I would probably give the list a couple more tries and see if it could be refined. Any suggestion for this are welcome.
Is it maybe more feasible to try more WC1/2 casts of Flickering Fire than fewer WC3 casts? Dunno what the maths on warp charge usage might look like, but maybe that's an idea if the WC3 casts get too costly.
No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.
You might get lucky trying to cast it a bunch of times with less dice, but it's not the most optimal approach.
FWIW, I've found flicker fire to be underwhelming as well. I've been focusing more on buffing the durability or offensive output of my units in assault (and durability to shooting as well of course). Then again, if I took the relic to know all of change (or Fateweaver wanted to melt someone with his D laser eyes) that would be a different story
luke1705 wrote: No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.
I don't think this is the case. It may only be 2 more dice to get from WC1 to WC2 but you only get an single d6 extra shooting.
To put it perspective a WC1 FF costs 3 dice for 2d6 shots so is a 2:3 (66% efficient) ratio while WC 2 FF needs 5 dice for 3 shots so is 3:5 ratio (or 60% efficient) and WC3 FF is 4:7 ratio (57% efficient)
So it is more efficient to throw multiple WC1 flicker fires
I played at a tournament yesterday and got 3rd place with a list that mixed Vraksian Renegades and Heretics with a Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, and Keeper of Secrets rocking the new artifacts. They did extremely well and I was very pleased. My 365 point Lord of Change is a total beast even though I never had him cast anything except sometimes Cursed Earth.
I thought about how to change my list so that I could run a Daemonic Incursion and have the Lord of Change be the Warlord rolling on the Tzeentch table, and I decided to drop 6 Vraksian Spawn and the Keeper of Secrets to
1850 points.
Daemonic Incursion Detachment
Warlord: LoC, fighter ace, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts, 1 lesser gift
Daemon Lord: D-thirster
6 squads of 3x Nurglings
10 plaguebearers
Herald of Nurgle, lvl 2, doomsday bell, balesword, etherblade, palaquin, FNP locus
5 furies
Vraksian Renegades and Heretics, The Purge Detachment
Renegade Vraks command squad
Renegade 2 squads of 3x chaos spawn
Renegade 4x wyverns
Renegade 3 squads of 3x rapier laser destroyers + 6x crew with weapons training.
LoC has 4 ways of getting rerollable 2++. D thirster kills scary stuff. Herald and his squad holds the backfield / center against almost anything. Nurglings infiltrate to get every open maelstrom objective turn 1, and the rest either deep strike to annoy enemy backfield squads or go with your LoC and Dthirster for the Tallyband -T and -I debuff...even fearless units have to take the test every turn,and Doomsday Bell makes this a -1 LD test. 45 points is amazing for nurglings when combined with the Tallyband and Daemonic Incursion bonuses. Don't forgot the +1 and -1 options for the warp storm table!
Solosam47 wrote: Yeah I had the feeling the tzeentch core would be underwhelming. Shame as I love tzeentch but its just too much reliance on WC to effectively work.
The tzeench auxillary looks like a ball of fun tho, I think the Khorn core formation is the most viable although I'm hoping to try the slannesh one this thursday ^_^ looking forward to it
luke1705 wrote: No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.
I don't think this is the case. It may only be 2 more dice to get from WC1 to WC2 but you only get an single d6 extra shooting.
To put it perspective a WC1 FF costs 3 dice for 2d6 shots so is a 2:3 (66% efficient) ratio while WC 2 FF needs 5 dice for 3 shots so is 3:5 ratio (or 60% efficient) and WC3 FF is 4:7 ratio (57% efficient)
So it is more efficient to throw multiple WC1 flicker fires
In an ideal scenario yes, but you also need to factor in the likelihood of DtW as well. Lower WC casting with less dice will have less successful rolls and easier to deny. Also there's the Warpflame rule to consider so you don't want to spread FF around thinly between different targets. You might need to try casting multiple WC1 against the same target which then requires multiple units to be in range etc.
What are your tactics with all the nurglings like? Infiltrate and harass, or deep strike? Also, do you go offensive and stay on the ground with the LoC?
Do you just have your herald +PB unit hide around, or do you run them offensive as well?
What are your tactics with all the nurglings like? Infiltrate and harass, or deep strike? Also, do you go offensive and stay on the ground with the LoC?
Do you just have your herald +PB unit hide around, or do you run them offensive as well?
The Lord of Change I will start on the ground; even if my opponent pours his whole army into shooting it, the LoC should survive one turn, maybe even without a wound. If I roll poorly on gifts I may start flying, cast cursed earth, move into opponent's backline, and then deep strike in nurglings and hopefully herald squad for a massed turn 3 charge. The bigger question for me is whether to start the Bloodthirster flying or not, since I don't have the points for an invisibility caster or for greater gifts on him. In most cases I think I keep things on the ground and assault turn 2.
The nurglings and plaguebearers depend on the setup. Top priority is to infiltrate on top of open objectives, and to corrupt my own near my artillery units so that I am controlling even if my opponent contests with a non-ObSec unit. If I am against a very shooty army, I will probably infiltrate the rest as close as possible, in cover, and try for a turn 2 charge. If the enemy gets hit by the debuff, nurglings can actually tie up a lot of squads and do damage. Versus shooty army with no deep strike/outflank, I will deep strike in the herald and his bodyguard hopefully off the LoC cursed earth. If I need someone to defend my backline or hold the center, that unit should be able to take care of most anything. The spawn run to objectives or back up my nurglings/big creatures wherever I need weight of wounds, depending on the situation. Same with the furies. The whole time, wyverns put the hurt on non-vehicle, non-MC units and the rapiers whittle down armor.
Ideally, even if I lose a lot of stuff, the combination of good scoring every turn + my wyverns, rapier, and LoC surviving most or all of the game should be all I need to get the right combination of strong points and heavy damage dealing.
Nurglings come stock with infiltrate! It's something I forgot too. Makes that Tally Band formation a little better.
The fours ways are: 1) cursed earth, 2) the Tzeentch warlord table, 3) fighter ace table, and 4) warp storm table (which is a little easier with the daemonic incursion formation letting you +1 or -1 to the roll).
Fighter Ace used to be in the original supplement that gave us the very first airplane units, right before 6th or 7th edition. That stuff got updated in the Shield of Baal campaign.
Every faction has its own table that a flier or flying MC can roll on for 35 points. The Chaos Daemon one is as follows:
1-2 : re-roll failed to wound or armor penetration rolls on vector strike (this is outdated, since vector strike used to me D3 instead o1 hit, so this result used to be better)
3-4: +1 wound
5-6: improve invulnerable save by +1
Obviously 3-6 are the best results.
Fun fact: with this table and the greater gifts, you can potentially have a 7-wound IWND Lord of Change
Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?
4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!
Here is an 1850 I just tossed together using the Rotswarm and Purge.
6 individual beasts
8 drones, proboscis, character+etherblade
Herald+Palanquin, FnP, ML2, etherblade (Not quite sold on anything else. Bell could be useful for moral checks, greater reward would be S6, corruption would be pretty nice as well)
Command squad - Ordnance tyrant - Nurgle
Blight drone (could drop and replace with zombies for rewards on herald)
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
EarthShaker Artillery
Heavy Mortar
Heavy Mortar
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
Wyvern
Wyvern
All artillery have max crew save for 1 mortar.
I love running ordnance tyrant, but always have issue with objectives. My strategy has always been to just sloth +60 zombies forward. When I have brought daemon allies, its been amazing. With 6 beasts, and a supercharged drone star. If I can make that leadership check, its 49 normal attacks, and 8 ap2 attacks on the charge, plus the herald from the drone unit. I am contemplating putting the grimoire on the herald, instead of the lesser reward, just in case I wind up facing knights or something similar.
Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?
4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!
You can make 18 nurgling swarms from 3 boxes worth, if you split them up. That's my plan.
In and of itself, the nurglings and furies are not worth it. I would love more points for cheap R&H spawn, or something with more kick (like a third MC). That's exactly what I had in the tournament yesterday.
However, if you want to run a LoC, a BT, and one or more Heralds, you need a CAD + Allied anyway. So you're already taking 3 troops choices. I may decide that taking 1 swarm of nurglings and two squads of 11 or 12 horrors each is a better use of points, especially since I'll have more psychic dice. Then you could also grab a Paradox tzeentch herald, and maybe more plague bearers in the big squad, depending on points.
But I think the advantages of the Tally Band are 1) I think that debuff from the nurglings and plague bearers has the potential to be secretly amazing, 2) the +1 / -1 to the warp storm table takes the risk out of daemons primary, which feels needed without the fateweaver as WL, and 3) all the nurglings + the daemonic corruption rule could be amazing for raking up points with maelstrom.
Oh, I didn't know they could parse out into so many units. Ill have to look into that! I've been making them out of the old metal ones.
I edited my above post to add a list I was working on earlier. I am considering trying it tomorrow. The more I think about it, the more I am thinking about swapping the blight drone for zombies and either the grimoire or the bell for the herald. The bell +Shell shock could be pretty nice!
Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?
4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!
Here is an 1850 I just tossed together using the Rotswarm and Purge.
6 individual beasts
8 drones, proboscis, character+etherblade
Herald+Palanquin, FnP, ML2, etherblade (Not quite sold on anything else. Bell could be useful for moral checks, greater reward would be S6, corruption would be pretty nice as well)
Command squad - Ordnance tyrant - Nurgle
Blight drone (could drop and replace with zombies for rewards on herald)
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
EarthShaker Artillery
Heavy Mortar
Heavy Mortar
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
Wyvern
Wyvern
All artillery have max crew save for 1 mortar.
I love running ordnance tyrant, but always have issue with objectives. My strategy has always been to just sloth +60 zombies forward. When I have brought daemon allies, its been amazing. With 6 beasts, and a supercharged drone star. If I can make that leadership check, its 49 normal attacks, and 8 ap2 attacks on the charge, plus the herald from the drone unit. I am contemplating putting the grimoire on the herald, instead of the lesser reward, just in case I wind up facing knights or something similar.
I've discovered that cheap chaos spawn take care of the objective grab no problem.
Yeah, those chaos spawn are pretty awesome. I only recently started running them with ordnance tyrant though. I find myself filling the army with all my artillery too quickly. Sometimes I run Dual Purge though! Purge is such a wonderful thing.
I don't think I have ever tried one with legitimate spawn spam though. I will try that out. I have tried Giant chaos spawn with my purge, and they did amazing at protecting my artillery. One punched out a daemon prince.
Solosam47 wrote: Yeah I had the feeling the tzeentch core would be underwhelming. Shame as I love tzeentch but its just too much reliance on WC to effectively work.
The tzeench auxillary looks like a ball of fun tho, I think the Khorn core formation is the most viable although I'm hoping to try the slannesh one this thursday ^_^ looking forward to it
The auxillaries for all the chaos gods look real good, for me though I feel nurgle tallyband and slaanesh will be the better cores out of the book. Tallyband being potentially very cheap while slaanesh getting the speed to capture objectives.
This doesnt look too bad, I would probably go LoC myself, maybe switch around some stuff and try to squeeze a few more hounds into the group that the Khorne herald strolls with. Shame you have to take furies thought, never did like them at all. I have seen a few lists like this though where its a core and a CAD, still having a rough time wanting to go core but with the CAD there it helps and makes me want to give a better look.
Actually could make a nice little deathstar with the herald and Karanak in a large scout hound unit, with small hounds following along for the bonus. Or have two large units of dogs, scout one with Karanak forward to soften the line and help the hounds + juggerherald get deeper into enemy territory. Stick a cad in there with some rage loci juggerheralds and you have a large amount of attacks on units that will be in your opponent's deployment zone turn 2.
I think khorne got a pretty good deal with this release. Seems like you could almost run nothing but flesh hounds and juggerheralds and be fairly strong (plus the troops for a cad).
yes but at 1500 it cant fit into the list i posted, 120pts, where i can find them?if i play only decurion i use karanak usually with bloodcrusher so i can scout with them too togheter with hounds. in only decurion i play d thirtser for heavy armors, but i m not sure if better run only K decurion or add some support by Tz like the list i posted above.
decurion K
K herald juggernaut, lesser reward greater reward exalted locus, warlord
karanak
5 bloodcrusher champion with lesser reward, icon (go with karanak and the other herald)
6x5 hounds
10 hounds (go with warlord)
CAD demons
K herald lesser reward juggernaut, locus of fury
2x10 bloodletter
lot and lot of rerollable attacks, 124 fast wounds on the table, but heavy armored veichles could hurt (av13+), to see how much stuff reach enemy lines...
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Actually could make a nice little deathstar with the herald and Karanak in a large scout hound unit, with small hounds following along for the bonus. Or have two large units of dogs, scout one with Karanak forward to soften the line and help the hounds + juggerherald get deeper into enemy territory. Stick a cad in there with some rage loci juggerheralds and you have a large amount of attacks on units that will be in your opponent's deployment zone turn 2.
I think khorne got a pretty good deal with this release. Seems like you could almost run nothing but flesh hounds and juggerheralds and be fairly strong (plus the troops for a cad).
AV 13 still hurts though.
you could use those troops from the CAD to carry icons and deep strike 3 formationed soul grinders.
That's actually quite a good idea.. 3 deep striking grinders present AV 13 hull points to go with all those fast wounds, probably keeping your hounds from getting doubled out by anti tank weapons while remaining fairly resilient to those weapons themselves.
Makes me want to buy more khorne models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, does anyone think it would be worth it to run the herald from a warp flame host on a burning chariot with the impossible robes, fishing for cursed earth to protect 3 Warp charge and the conjuration Locus rather than placing him in a unit of 20 horrors?
I don't think this is the case. It may only be 2 more dice to get from WC1 to WC2 but you only get an single d6 extra shooting.
To put it perspective a WC1 FF costs 3 dice for 2d6 shots so is a 2:3 (66% efficient) ratio while WC 2 FF needs 5 dice for 3 shots so is 3:5 ratio (or 60% efficient) and WC3 FF is 4:7 ratio (57% efficient)
So it is more efficient to throw multiple WC1 flicker fires
Agreed. Although with Paradox up your sleeve, you should be throwing at least one earth-shattering kaboom, since you can be confident of flinging a warp charge 3 attack with only 5 dice.
Also - just wondering if one or two blasted standards might be a good accompaniment; you know the paradox-wielding guy will be packing witchfires, after all.
On a side note, does anyone think it would be worth it to run the herald from a warp flame host on a burning chariot with the impossible robes, fishing for cursed earth to protect 3 Warp charge and the conjuration Locus rather than placing him in a unit of 20 horrors?
I'm not sure the Impossible Robes protect the chariot.....In many ways just putting him on a disc might be better. Discs are nasty for heralds (and sorcerors) because you can move, unleash witchfires and then turbo-boost to run like buggery if whoever you've just set on fire turns out to have friends.
Ah, I never considered that perhaps only the rider would gain the invulnerable from the robes, because I'm used to casting spells on my chariots to increase the invulnerable save, which affect the unit.
Would be nice if it clarified whether it works or not, I've got a burning chariot kit I'm waiting to build. I'll probably have to ask my group how they would play it.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Ah, I never considered that perhaps only the rider would gain the invulnerable from the robes, because I'm used to casting spells on my chariots to increase the invulnerable save, which affect the unit.
Would be nice if it clarified whether it works or not, I've got a burning chariot kit I'm waiting to build. I'll probably have to ask my group how they would play it.
A suggestion is to magnetize the herald and the exalted flamers bottoms so you can just put whoever on the chariot and the other on a magnetized base. The herald needs a little platform to stand on though to hold the magnet and can kinda look funny but is easily hidden.
Do you guys think it is worth putting Armour of Scorn on a bloodthirster? Yes, they already have the +3, but -1S on everything that targets the bearer is basically +1 toughness. Adamantium will is a nice little bonus. 30pt for +1T on a D thirster doesn't seem too bad. Considering how tough a GUO is with a +3 save, I think it could be worthwhile.
gwarsh41 wrote: Do you guys think it is worth putting Armour of Scorn on a bloodthirster? Yes, they already have the +3, but -1S on everything that targets the bearer is basically +1 toughness. Adamantium will is a nice little bonus. 30pt for +1T on a D thirster doesn't seem too bad. Considering how tough a GUO is with a +3 save, I think it could be worthwhile.
Possibly. -1S is amazingly good on a T5 model like a Prince, but for T6 it's nothing overly special, just a bit of extra durability. At T6 it's also an awkard position - you're really only affecting things at Strengths 5-7, but I feel like few things fall into that range. Standard S4 models will still wound on 6s, S10 models (like thunder hammers or WKs) will still wound on 2s. S8 hammers go from 2s to 3s, which is nice, but not super huge. It makes him immune to S3, but that's kinda inconsequential.
gwarsh41 wrote: Do you guys think it is worth putting Armour of Scorn on a bloodthirster? Yes, they already have the +3, but -1S on everything that targets the bearer is basically +1 toughness. Adamantium will is a nice little bonus. 30pt for +1T on a D thirster doesn't seem too bad. Considering how tough a GUO is with a +3 save, I think it could be worthwhile.
Possibly. -1S is amazingly good on a T5 model like a Prince, but for T6 it's nothing overly special, just a bit of extra durability. At T6 it's also an awkard position - you're really only affecting things at Strengths 5-7, but I feel like few things fall into that range. Standard S4 models will still wound on 6s, S10 models (like thunder hammers or WKs) will still wound on 2s. S8 hammers go from 2s to 3s, which is nice, but not super huge. It makes him immune to S3, but that's kinda inconsequential.
Apparently half the people at my LGS own SW, and just pulled them out of the closet with the wulfen release. The land speeders and razorbacks are sold out and on back order, its ironwolves bonanza at the shop. Las/plas and assault cannon galore. It should help there quite a bit, heck, like you mentioned, even melta/missiles go from 2-3. Problem is, he turns into a +350pt beast of points. Suddenly your looking at be'lakor and fateweaver level of points. I still havent tried it yet, so for all I know it is totally worth it.
gwarsh41 wrote: Do you guys think it is worth putting Armour of Scorn on a bloodthirster? Yes, they already have the +3, but -1S on everything that targets the bearer is basically +1 toughness. Adamantium will is a nice little bonus. 30pt for +1T on a D thirster doesn't seem too bad. Considering how tough a GUO is with a +3 save, I think it could be worthwhile.
Possibly. -1S is amazingly good on a T5 model like a Prince, but for T6 it's nothing overly special, just a bit of extra durability. At T6 it's also an awkard position - you're really only affecting things at Strengths 5-7, but I feel like few things fall into that range. Standard S4 models will still wound on 6s, S10 models (like thunder hammers or WKs) will still wound on 2s. S8 hammers go from 2s to 3s, which is nice, but not super huge. It makes him immune to S3, but that's kinda inconsequential.
Apparently half the people at my LGS own SW, and just pulled them out of the closet with the wulfen release. The land speeders and razorbacks are sold out and on back order, its ironwolves bonanza at the shop. Las/plas and assault cannon galore. It should help there quite a bit, heck, like you mentioned, even melta/missiles go from 2-3. Problem is, he turns into a +350pt beast of points. Suddenly your looking at be'lakor and fateweaver level of points. I still havent tried it yet, so for all I know it is totally worth it.
Yeah, there's a meta question. If you're against things like Tau with S5 spam, it's pretty meh. If you're against TWC wtih lots of S10 Thunderhammers, it does nothing. If Plasmaguns and Rockets are the name of the game, it'll pay it's points off in dividends.
Thirsters still need a lot of support, though, so make sure that 30 points aren't better spent elsewhere. Like, say, on a Grimoire.
This may of been covered and I'm sorry if it has, but with the grand cavalcade does that mean that the chariots are moving an extra 9 inches while going flat out?
So 12" for fast vehicle - 12" flat out - 3 inches for daemon of Slaanesh and 6" for Grand Cavalcade for a grand total of 33"?
Or did I just confuse myself.
We usually play smaller games and I was thinking something in the lines of this at 1250pts
+ HQ +
Be'lakor, The Dark Master
Daemonic Heralds
Herald of Nurgle [Greater Locus of Fecundity, Psyker Level 1, The Doomsday Bell]
Herald of Slaanesh [D6 Greater Daemonic Reward, Lesser Locus of Grace, Psyker Level 1, Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh]
+ Troops +
Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
Plaguebearers of Nurgle [10x Plaguebearers]
Plaguebearers of Nurgle [10x Plaguebearers]
+ Heavy Support +
Seeker Cavalcade
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh [Exalted Alluress]
With 15 units it give me a lot of small units to harass. Nurglings would infultrate and try to charge the same turn as a chariot to soak up overwatch or hug points. Be'lakor and the Slaanesh Harald would harass with shriek while the Nurgle herald holds the bell.
Ignore the slots on that - just quickly making it in scribe. It should fufill the Armies of Unreason (what a stupid name.. lol)
So many edits sorry..
I haven't played my nurgle in 7th yet.. defensive grenades on nurglings mean they can attempt to blind units correct?
Swara wrote: This may of been covered and I'm sorry if it has, but with the grand cavalcade does that mean that the chariots are moving an extra 9 inches while going flat out?
So 12" for fast vehicle - 12" flat out - 3 inches for daemon of Slaanesh and 6" for Grand Cavalcade for a grand total of 33"?
Or did I just confuse myself.
You are absolutely correct. Chariots move 12", Flat out +6”, Fast +6", DOS +3”, Cavalcade, +6” for 33” or movement. Both RAW & RAI are clear cut here.
Also, the "Beguiling Chimes" rule for the Flayer Troupe does absolutely nothing. Except on a Herald where it might save her taking half a wound. Unless your fighting Eldar, who "spoilers" have grenades and Battle Focus. Such a wasted rule we're already WS5/I5, with like a bazillion ways to drop an opponents initiative. Grenades man! How hard is it to figure out. Or some kind of boosted defense against shooting. Or a flat -1 LD to enemy units withing 6-12" would have been vastly superior.
Swara wrote: This may of been covered and I'm sorry if it has, but with the grand cavalcade does that mean that the chariots are moving an extra 9 inches while going flat out?
So 12" for fast vehicle - 12" flat out - 3 inches for daemon of Slaanesh and 6" for Grand Cavalcade for a grand total of 33"?
Or did I just confuse myself.
You are absolutely correct. Chariots move 12", Flat out +6”, Fast +6", DOS +3”, Cavalcade, +6” for 33” or movement. Both RAW & RAI are clear cut here.
Thank you!
I just wanted to clarify as some things in my head don't always pan out, lol.
This army has a long of synergy and I'm excited to see it play out. An effective -2 LD on fear tests - nurglings throwing def grenades for blind, -1 LD on the tests needed to not be taken down -1 str and tough for a turn from those same nurglings only to have chariots smash in.
This army has a long of synergy and I'm excited to see it play out. An effective -2 LD on fear tests - nurglings throwing def grenades for blind, -1 LD on the tests needed to not be taken down -1 str and tough for a turn from those same nurglings only to have chariots smash in.
I like where your going with this. I'm not down with Nurgle, but I do have some Nurgling counts as models that I made years ago and haven't used. Hmmm....
This army has a long of synergy and I'm excited to see it play out. An effective -2 LD on fear tests - nurglings throwing def grenades for blind, -1 LD on the tests needed to not be taken down -1 str and tough for a turn from those same nurglings only to have chariots smash in.
I like where your going with this. I'm not down with Nurgle, but I do have some Nurgling counts as models that I made years ago and haven't used. Hmmm....
This army has a long of synergy and I'm excited to see it play out. An effective -2 LD on fear tests - nurglings throwing def grenades for blind, -1 LD on the tests needed to not be taken down -1 str and tough for a turn from those same nurglings only to have chariots smash in.
I like where your going with this. I'm not down with Nurgle, but I do have some Nurgling counts as models that I made years ago and haven't used. Hmmm....
These look so great!
You could use 7 units of nurglings with a count as Slaanesh "herald of gluttony" with the bell. Be'lekor gives that -1 LD for fear tests and can terrify for another -1 LD. Nurglings can charge without being overwatched after they throw grenades.
It's fast, it sounds fun, and it should do really well at that point cost.
I had completely forgot that Nurglings can now throw those defensive grenades which are great for making some huge shooting targets (riptides?) shot at BS1 for a turn.
I also gave my herald the move through cover which extends out to any chariot within 12" so they can practically ignore cover and can charge into cover as well.
blackmage wrote: what about play a double bloodthirster at 1500pts with new Korne formation murder horde?
I would have to see a full list to really give a better answer but right now I would have to say not for 1500 points with the decurion. I feel the list would sit to heavy on one side of the spectrum and would get shot out quickly.
Now if you CAD it or use a more durable decurion maybe it would function decently
I was simply hoping I could couple it with the av10 of the chariot to get a herald that's functionally T6 2+++ against shooting, you protect his Locus and spread it out more due to the huge base.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: I was simply hoping I could couple it with the av10 of the chariot to get a herald that's functionally T6 2+++ against shooting, you protect his Locus and spread it out more due to the huge base.
If you already have the 2++ rerollable the Av part doesn't matter
If you want do this tactic do it on a disc because much cheaper, you get to move farther and are easier to hide out of LoS
blackmage wrote: what about play a double bloodthirster at 1500pts with new Korne formation murder horde?
I would have to see a full list to really give a better answer but right now I would have to say not for 1500 points with the decurion. I feel the list would sit to heavy on one side of the spectrum and would get shot out quickly.
Now if you CAD it or use a more durable decurion maybe it would function decently
the list is very simple use the murder horde formation with 8x5 hounds herald on juggernaut, lesser reward exalted locus, and a D thirster with 2 greater reward, armor of scorn and a normal thirster with skullreaver and 2 greater and 1 lesser reward, simply overrun enemy during 2nd turn, i should try use belakor+LOC but then i will only have 6 CW i think bit too few, or 1 D thirster and a "small deathstar "with 5-6 bloodcrushers champion karanak and herald.
blackmage wrote: what about play a double bloodthirster at 1500pts with new Korne formation murder horde?
I would have to see a full list to really give a better answer but right now I would have to say not for 1500 points with the decurion. I feel the list would sit to heavy on one side of the spectrum and would get shot out quickly.
Now if you CAD it or use a more durable decurion maybe it would function decently
the list is very simple use the murder horde formation with 8x5 hounds herald on juggernaut, lesser reward exalted locus, and a D thirster with 2 greater reward, armor of scorn and a normal thirster with skullreaver and 2 greater and 1 lesser reward, simply overrun enemy during 2nd turn, i should try use belakor+LOC but then i will only have 6 CW i think bit too few, or 1 D thirster and a "small deathstar "with 5-6 bloodcrushers champion karanak and herald.
Played against an Eldar chap today (he was really nice had a laugh) I honestly didn't know that warp spiders wound against initiative since I've never played against them before, It was hilarious since it meant my Keeper of Secrets was literally invincible since I managed to take out his Jet Bikes and Hornets on turn 2, and his D scythes whiffed on the turn I failed to cast invisibility.
If warp spiders are popular in the meta wouldn't this make the greater locus that makes Daemonettes, seekers and Fiends initiative 10 a decent meta call for mono slaanesh ?
Rydria wrote: Played against an Eldar chap today (he was really nice had a laugh) I honestly didn't know that warp spiders wound against initiative since I've never played against them before, It was hilarious since it meant my Keeper of Secrets was literally invincible since I managed to take out his Jet Bikes and Hornets on turn 2, and his D scythes whiffed on the turn I failed to cast invisibility.
If warp spiders are popular in the meta wouldn't this make the greater locus that makes Daemonettes, seekers and Fiends initiative 10 a decent meta call for mono slaanesh ?
Its still strength 6 so it wounds on 2s against daemonettes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I had completely forgot that Nurglings can now throw those defensive grenades which are great for making some huge shooting targets (riptides?) shot at BS1 for a turn.
Rydria wrote: Played against an Eldar chap today (he was really nice had a laugh) I honestly didn't know that warp spiders wound against initiative since I've never played against them before, It was hilarious since it meant my Keeper of Secrets was literally invincible since I managed to take out his Jet Bikes and Hornets on turn 2, and his D scythes whiffed on the turn I failed to cast invisibility.
If warp spiders are popular in the meta wouldn't this make the greater locus that makes Daemonettes, seekers and Fiends initiative 10 a decent meta call for mono slaanesh ?
Its still strength 6 so it wounds on 2s against daemonettes.
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I had completely forgot that Nurglings can now throw those defensive grenades which are great for making some huge shooting targets (riptides?) shot at BS1 for a turn.
The Armour of Scorn is a great buy for a Khorne Daemon Prince (as it's essentially the same price as Warp-Forged Armour and MUCH better).
The Doomsday Bell also seems awesome. Slaanesh/Nurgle has always been a nice combination - effective 'foxhole troops' that are hard to dig out, fast assault troops, and easy access to Telepath - a board-wide -1 Ld is very nasty with Psychic Shriek.
Pairing it with Be'Lakor is very nasty; you get the extra bonus of making it more likely to get the extra warp charge for people running away...
but if the exalted flamer would have relentless i would use him so much more and probably more than the chariot even if he was like 60-65 points instead of 50...
