Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
Yes. Playing any game as a cheese is impossible, cheese can't play games.
On a more serious note sure, just balance our army vs your opponent and don't max out on the op stuff. There are enough fun units and weapon choices in there that don't ruin our game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An idiot proof way to build a non cheesy eldar army.
- Don't do formations.
- Look at the codex, select only units & upgrades that makes you go. "I love the idea / model / fluff but why would anyone ever want to field that"
And the most important step.
-Change and tone down our army if it was clearly too op to play against in retrospect
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
they can certainly be olayed at a much more reasonable level, though theyll still likely have an advantage over most ofher armies. Avoid Wraithknights, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, D weapons in general, Jetseer councils, more than 1-per 3 HW's on Bikes, and some of the more egregious psychic powers like Invisibility, stick it in a single CAD and you're probably fine for most games and still will be capable of engagin most tournament armies pretty well without one sidedly crushing weaker armies.
Definitely can. I've not heard a single issue from other people about my Aspect Warrior list. The worst thing in the list was 5 Warp Spiders with some less than good upgrades.
[Edit] This might be the best way to build the least OP army of any sort if you don't know that much about the game. Just read the file and try to minimize the credits. The file has been made with great care for the sole reason to tone down op armies.
Thanks for the replies ^_^ I'v played against Wraithguard and Wraithblades enough to disslike them.. So hard to kill.. xD If I where to have a Wraithknight, It would only be in apocalypse when there is like 16 000 points or more per side and everyone has a superheavy/gargantuan. It wouldent be used in regular matches, At all..
I like the Jetbikes, Probably wont overload on psykers, But I might try to convert a Autarch on Jetbike..
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
Absolutely! In fact, one of the silver linings to having a codex with so many powerful options is that you can play pretty much whatever you want in a casual game without being punished for it. Wraith Knights are sort of problematic, but there are easy ways to field pretty much anything else without ruining your opponent's game.
Want to do a jet bike heavy army? Consider limiting your heavy weapons to 1 big gun per 3 bikes like in the old days. Jetbikes are still quite good without scatter laser spam, but they're far easier to shoot back at or assault if they have to get within 12" to use most of their guns. Maybe even consider mixing in a sub-optimal choice like shining spears (which are fun even if they have problems).
Want to field warp spiders? Awesome. Just don't spam them and/or don't include an exarch in the unit. Without the exarch making them un-sweepable, spiders become much more vulnerable to assaults.
Aside from the big three (bikes, wraith knights, and spiders), most eldar units are actually pretty reasonable. In fact, I'd argue that things like striking scorpions and dire avengers are great examples of units that are effective and flavorful with their rules while still being on a reasonable power level. 90% of the eldar options are good at their jobs and fun to use without being overpowered. Just avoid taking the 8% of options that are a little too good at what they do.
Then there's the 2% of options that are just plain not great. Things like rangers and banshees are often considered some of the worst units in the eldar army if not the worst. But you know what? Even those troublesome units can work with a little work. I've been building up an Iybraesil-themed army. That means lots of howling banshees. Banshees aren't great by themselves, but mixing in Jain Zar or some wave serpents to help them survive the trip down field and debuff enemy WS really helps a lot. I've been backing them up with an Avatar and some Wraith Lords (also "bad" choices), and I've found it actually works reasonably well in a casual setting!
I guess what I'm saying is this:
* It's easy to avoid fielding the too-good/cheesy options.
* Most of our options are good without necessarily being cheesy.
* Those few options that aren't "good" can still be playable with support from relatively good options.
Compare to, for instance, Tyranids where not using the "cheesy" options leaves you with almost nothing but bad-to-mediocre options.
EDIT: Wow! 7 responses in the time it took me to write that!
Just a heads up, eldar jetbikes are criminally under costed in points for their effectiveness in the game even if you don't load them up with heavy weapons. ; )
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.
I'm going to re-iterate what oldzoggy said. Play with the stuff that looks cool without worrying too much about whether or not it's strong. So long as you don't spam any single entry, you'll be fine. Try to make everything a one-of.
Outside of that, look to the Craftworlds Biel-Tan, Alaitoc, and Ulthwe for some guidance. Those craftworlds use a lot of the not-completely-OP units. Having some Banshees, Dark Reapers, and Fire Dragons with Biel-Tan is a lot of fun. Playing up the Black Guardians of the Ulthwe and having a Warlock in each of those squads is fun. Playing with Vypers, War Walkers, and Snipers of Alaitoc is a lot of fun. Those are all fun without being overpowering, and most of those still have some very powerful units within them!
Personally, I think people are just scared of fighting the cheddar lists. The moment some bikes or Wraithknights come down, people (understandably) freak out.
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.
This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.
Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.
This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.
Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.
Name a single unit.
Is there a point? You're hardly a rational person when it comes to this.
People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.
Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise.
This is a perfect example of a TFG attitude.
Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP.
Name a single unit.
Banshees are generally considered to not be very good, even at their recently reduced price.
Personally, I'd consider most of our book to be at least a couple points too cheap for what it does. Things that were already pretty okay before the new book got some improvements without any points increase, The thing is that having slightly too cheap options all over the place doesn't actually make it impossible to have a good, non-cheesy game with them.
The OP is asking if it's possible to play Eldar without bringing a smash-face cheese list. The answer is yes. We have a lot of units that are highly efficient for their points (more points efficient than non-eldar counterparts), but that doesn't mean you can't build a list close enough in power to your opponent's to have a good game. You'll never see a 40k game that has two 100% perfectly balanced armies in it unless they're literally the same list. And even then, one player getting first turn will likely make the match mathematically a-symmetrical once you account for first-turn casualties. But you don't need a 100% balanced match to have fun. You just need a match where the lists present are balanced against one another well-enough for it to be sort of kind of close.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClassicCarraway wrote: People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.
Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.
Well said. I'm not sure I agree on the Wraith thing though. Wraith blades and wraith lords are actually considered some of our worst units. D-scythe wraith guard are annoyingly good, but they're a lot less scary when not arriving via webway portal or some other shenanigans. Regular wraith guard are quite good but also quite expensive. Wraith guard/blades melt under AP3 shooting like meltas or plasmas, and even wraith lords will drop pretty quickly against krak missiles (or things that are like krak missiles but better).
The formations themselves aren't directly problematic either. The spirit host has good buffs, but it's also quite expensive. I feel like the wraith knight is more problematic than the formation itself. How would people feel about the formation if the 'knight were removed from it? The wraith construct formation is basically just problematic because it lets you get a wraithknight, which, again, is more of a wraith knight issue.
A fluffy, wraith-spamming Iyanden list will do very well against land raiders and enemy wraith knights, but it will do rather less well against an army that favors quantity over quality. Truk boyz with hidden powerklaws actually trade pretty well against a unit of wraith guard!
Absolutely you can. Some of my funnest games have been against eldar. I think most of the ways to accomplish this have been said. Avoid more overpowered selections such as the wraithknight, scat bikes, warp spiders, titans, strength d weapons, and jetseer councils. Happy gaming!
ClassicCarraway wrote: People keep saying "avoid formations" but for the most part, the formations aren't really a major deal for Eldar. At least a Guardian Battlehost requires you to take at least 30 guardians and a Vyper. Very few people will complain having to face those units. It also allows just a tiny bit of the ol' Eldar POWAH by including a weapons platform that can be strength D, so people don't think you are taking it TOO easy on them.
Its really the Wraith formations people should avoid, as anything with the word Wraith in it tends to be more than the standard army can handle. Fielding an Aspect Host isn't going to have people wailing and tearing their hair out unless you just spam Spiders.
BS5 is a pretty huge deal, especially on things like Fire Dragons (which, on top of their "AP0" effect, gives them an almost 200% boost in Damage Chart kills).
Getting to make all (or most) of the specialist infantry in an army BS5 for zero cost is pretty bonkers.
That said, formations in general are pretty awful game design mechanics, and really are just sales mechanisms...
When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.
Is it fairly costed?
Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.
In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.
Which would you prefer to field?
What about once upgrades are taken into account?
No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.
Storm Guardians.
Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.
Rangers.
Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.
Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.
Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:
Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?
You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.
To the OP:
If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.
Merellin wrote: Can Eldar be played without being all OP Cheese? Like, If I run a CAD, Dont use any Wraithknight, No scatter lasers on the bikes and so on, Or are they still too strong even without the cheese flavors?
Other than a Wraith KNights cost, and the Jetbieks NUMBEr of Scatterlasers i see no real problems in the codex. I thought the codex was great until i saw the Wraith Knight. It was only later that I learned the Jetbikes were kind of outlandish also. No normal troops choice should look so suspiciously like a heavy support choice, ya know?
Gamers will complain about anything. From what i can see, the Wraith Knights cost and Jetbikes taking so many Scatter Lasers are the issues. So you could voluntarily do one every third Jetbike as it was before and still field them without breaking things. Skipping the Wraith Knight seems reasonable too.
The other superstars of the codex are far less scary. It is still a very strong Codex but you shouldnt get all the hate you will with those tow things curtailed. My opinion.
When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.
Is it fairly costed?
Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.
In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.
Which would you prefer to field?
What about once upgrades are taken into account?
No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.
Storm Guardians.
Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.
Rangers.
Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.
Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.
Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:
Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?
You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.
To the OP:
If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.
You're comparing the sub-par Eldar stuff to the WORST of other codex' stuff.
Dreadnoughts, as a vehicle, are worse than Wraithlords because of the meta. A Carnifex belongs to one of the worst codices - Tyranids, which rely on gimmick builds and spamming Flyrants.
Dark Eldar Wyches have been pretty bad since 6th, AFAIK.
You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.
You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?
To OP - Run what you like the look of - don't look at the rules, look at the fluff and theme and aesthetic of the model. Don't stop playing because someone wants you to play with your models how they want. If they don't want to play against you, fine. Their loss. By asking this question, you're clearly not TFG, and I'd gladly play you if you took what you liked, regardless of rules.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.
I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."
If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.
You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?
Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.
I think the fear of Formations is that you don't need them for most CWE units to be reasonable. Dire Avengers are right as is. Bump them to BS5, and they get stupid.
Trad,
A Wraithlord works out to basically be a CWE dread. For every advantage it has, it has a similar disadvantage. For instance, look at the upgrades. They can pay 5 points to go from A3 S8 to A3 S8 mastercrafted. Dreads are s10 ap2 A4 as long as they have a weapon. Which is notably different. Or they can take Missile Launchers with Flakk for ML+Flakk prices. Or Lascannon equivelents for Lascannon prices. Their upgrades don't change things.
Wyches suck worse, sure. But that doesn't mean Storm Guardians aren't close. They are very clearly garbage tier.
Rangers are Sniper Scouts with 5+ cover vs 6+ cover 4+armor s/t4 krak/frag Grenades and CT. More than fair.
Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own
Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing
Ask Wraithlords how much they like Sternguard poison ammo. I don't have much experience against the Eldar units that aren't the best, but I suspect they're much easier to deal with. Especially for a list like archangel sanguine wing with 20 stormshields.
When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.
Is it fairly costed?
Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.
In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.
Which would you prefer to field?
What about once upgrades are taken into account?
No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.
Storm Guardians.
Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.
Rangers.
Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.
Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.
Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:
Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?
You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.
To the OP:
If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.
1. A carnifex also does more damage. Probably.
2. What the hell does "wyches beg to differ mean". Answer properly or go away.
3. Have you taken your crazy goggles off yet?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.
I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."
If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.
You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?
Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.
Bharring wrote: In smaller games, a unit of Sniper Scouts in the backfield means a Devilfish or Rhino or Waveserpent can't get to close.
A unit of Rangers can but weep at even AV10s.
with the apparent changes to the way grenades work, this will not be true anymore if that FAQ remains unchanged, the Scout unit's ability to harm armor will be greatly diminished. Thats also a relatively secondary, if not tertiary, use for such troops.
Yeah, that does cut their effectiveness a bit. So theyou fall back on S4 in CC to pop rear armor, plus one S6. Not great, but not terrible vs AV10. Rangers are S3, no Grenades.
Aye, the Scouts can still do something where the Rangers cant, but really they're supposed to be shooting stuff across the board and hiding in cover, thats their first job and the Rangers really are both better and cheaper in that primary role.
When you take into account upgrade options, the wraithlord isn't really a bad unit. It's just overshadowed by the broken, OP gak that makes up the rest of the codex.
Is it fairly costed?
Let's compare it to a dreadnought. T8 is virtually equivalent to front, side and rear AV 12. Note that the wraithlord possesses a 3+ armor save that the space marine dreadnought lacks.
In fact, let's waltz on over to the tyrranids codex. A naked carnifex is exactly the same price as a naked wraithlord.
Which would you prefer to field?
What about once upgrades are taken into account?
No, the wraithlord isn't the most OP gak in the eldar codex. But it's probably undercosted relative to other similar models in other codices.
Storm Guardians.
Dark Eldar wyches beg to differ.
Rangers.
Rangers are probably one of the few units in the Eldar codex that are even close to being fairly priced, and even then, they're probably a better version of scouts than other codices for the same or better cost.
Banshees.
Fire Prisms.
Avatar.
All Phoenix Lords.
Autarchs.
Shining Spears.
Before I spend any more time on the rest of this:
Have you compared those units to other similar units in other codices?
You can't just look at those units and compare them to the rest of the broken, OP gak that is the rest of the eldar codex. To determine whether they are under priced, you have to start looking around at other codices and what they pay for similar models.
To the OP:
If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex. Or Tau, for that matter.
Wraith lords are odd. They're great in that they're tough enough to ignore strength 3 and can challenge out that character with a power klaw/fist. On the other hand, they dissolve against many weapons. Sure, they get a 3+ save against small arms fire, but many of the weapons with a strength high enough to warrant shooting at them also ignores that save. They're basically as durable as a dreadnaught against plasma and krak. Things like haywire and melta are worse for the dreadnaught, but fleshbane and poison makes short work of a wraith lord. Being able to get toe in cover is nice though.
The carnifex is considered a pretty bad unit in a pretty bad codex, so the comparison is a bit odd. But speaking as someone who plays with carnifexes about as often as he does wraith lords, I honestly probably get more bang out of my carnifex. The 'fex hits roughly as hard in melee, but he also gets a better hammer of wrath. Brainleech devourers are also probably better for their points than the heavy weapon options on a wraith lord are. The biggest thing, however, is that I find it easier to support my carnifexes than my 'lords. A malanthrope or venomthrope's aura can easily keep my 'fexes alive while I move up the table without costing any "extra" resources. That is to say they can help everyone around them including the 'fexes without having to give up helping my other units. I could theoretically toss psychic buffs on a wraith lord to help him out, but those same buffs are usually needed more by other units. Guide on a squad of guardians or war walkers is more effective than guide on a wraith lord. Tossing fortune on a wraith lord doesn't help as much when you consider that many of the weapons that can hurt him without wounding on 6s also ignore his armor.
A wraith lord is okay for his points, but giving him ranged weapons makes him expensive and not cost effective fast. I like them, but they're very rock paper scissors. If you actually benefit from your high toughness, you're golden. If your opponent can get through your high toughness, you'll probably die very fast.
Wyches VS Storm Guardians Wyches are also a weird comparison for storm guardians. Wyches are pretty awful right now. I want them to work, but they have pretty big problems. Comparing a bad unit to a worse unit doesn't make the bad unit good. It's like saying, "Oh yeah, no. That fast food is perfectly healthy. Chugging motor oil is way worse for you than a hamburger." That said, storm guardians and wyches are still sort of odd to compare against one another. Despite their pistols and swords, storm guardians don't really function as a melee unit. They're more of melta or flamer unit that you attach a warlock to to give them a singing spear. Outside of formations, you don't really give storm guardians power weapons because they're too expensive and still don't make the storm guardians good at melee. Are they better than wyches at melee? Maybe? If the wyches don't roll a decent drug? Even then, you're comparing a short-ranged shooting unit that isn't really meant for melee and doesn't get a save against a bolter to a melee tar pit unit that doesn't really have much in the way of shooting and doesn't get a save against a bolter but does get a 4+ invul in melee.
Summary: It's sort of apples and oranges, but neither storm guardians or wyches are particularly good at being oranges... The oranges being melee.
Rangers VS scouts. Rangers and scouts are equally good at sniping things to death. Scouts have the option to take a wider variety of gear for a wider variety of tasks. Whether or not this is useful depends on what you're facing. Rangers get a slightly better cover save than scouts, but scouts get armor saves against smart missiles, flamers, etc and have a higher toughness for whatever that's worth. Rangers are fine for their points and probably under appreciated for what they do. You don't kill things with them (except maybe MCs); you hug objectives with them.
Banshees = bad for their cost, but you can build a list around them to make them playable. So yeah. Genuinely bad for their cost if the best they get is "playable."
Fire Prisms = kind of bad, but mostly because of hull points and the vehicle damage table. More than 100 points for a single shot that probably won't kill a rhino is pretty meh. They're alright at killing marines and terminators, but so is everything. They're bad for their cost, but mostly because of the current rules and meta.
Avatar = Similar to wraith lords. He's okay in a vacuum, but he's roughly as easy to kill as a carnifex and he's pricey. He hits reasonably hard in melee, but plenty of things can trade well with him there as well. Probably "bad" for his points, but mostly because he's hard to get across the table without dying.
All Phoenix Lords = I actually like the phoenix lords. They've been awful historically, but I think they're all actually pretty playable in their current incarnations.
Autarchs = Bad at being beatsticks (shard of anaris can offset this slightly), bad for their points if you're just looking for a portable meltagun, but not awful at either of the above. Plus their reserves bonus is nice. Probably fine for their points.
Shining Spears = bad purely because they lost hit and run. This unit would actually be great at its current price if it wasn't shut down so hard by getting charged.
Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You ADMIT that Rangers are fairly priced - forfeiting your point - and don't elaborate on the rest of Bharring's good points.
I only wish to note that I used the word "practically."
If an eldar opponent wishes to play an entire army of rangers and nothing else, I'm game. Have fun with that unbound ranger army.
So you're backtracking? You said practically ONCE, and then proceed to layer on blanket statements with no hint of different levels of OP-ness. Whatever happened to "Name something in the codex that you don't think is undercosted or somehow OP." That's a very absolutist statement. Or how about "If you don't want to run a cheesy, bull gak army, don't play with the Eldar codex."
But wait, you've just said that Rangers, a unit in the Eldar codex, are NOT cheesy and bull gak? How can this be? Unless, of course, you have backtracked.
You are holding Eldar to a changing standard. You compare it whichever codex you deem appropriate. Compared to Orks, SM are OP. Compared to Chaos, IG can be OP. Where is the baseline you're working from? Should everything be Chaos tier? Eldar tier? IG teir?
Everything should be on the same bloody tier. Everything should be appropriately costed.
And I ask again - what tier is that? IG tier? SM tier? Eldar tier? CSM tier? Tyranid tier? Which is the correct tier to base things off of? For all we know, Eldar tier may be correct, and everything is just wrong and should be made stronger. Alternatively, CSM may be the right level, by which case, most other codexes should be nerfed to the ground. Which tier is the right tier to base things off?
pm713 wrote:That tier is a tactical marine I suppose.
I have a sneaky suspicion you may be utterly correct. Question is: a BA Tactical Marine, or a Vanilla Tactical Marine?
Bharring wrote: Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.
I see the two as roughly equal overall.
dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?
Vaktathi wrote: Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own
Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing
It's also not a direct comparison.
A marine with sniper rifle and camo cloak (conferring a 6+, not 5+ cover save) is 14 ppm.
Bharring wrote: Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.
I see the two as roughly equal overall.
dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?
Not quite. Rangers can't battle focus if they shoot their sniper rifles because the rifles are heavy weapons. They can shoot and run if they use their pistols instead though.
Bharring wrote: Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.
I see the two as roughly equal overall.
dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?
No they do not. Battle Focus does not work with Heavy weapons. This is a classic example of why people assume Eldar are even more OP than they already are
Vaktathi wrote: Regarding Rangers, to be fair, compared to equivalent units in other books, like Ratlings or SM Scouts, are actually notably superior, even if the arent amazimg on their own
Marine advantages dont matter much for a sniper unit, and the cover bonus the Eldar unit gets over either is far more useful than anything the others are bringing
It's also not a direct comparison.
A marine with sniper rifle and camo cloak (conferring a 6+, not 5+ cover save) is 14 ppm.
In a purely sniper role, I'd say that rangers probably win out by dent of having a better cover save. That said, things that hard-counter rangers (flamers, smart missiles, etc.) often time still grant saves to scouts and may actually generate fewer wounds against scouts in the first place. This may seem like nit-picking, but it rather matters since "not dying" is sort of what rangers are good at. Scouts aren't as good at getting cover saves, but they're close, and they still get a 4+ save in many scenarios where they wouldn't get a cover save at all. Being able to spend a little extra to get a missile launcher, while not cheap, is kind of nice too. I'd say reasonable people could call them roughly equivalent.
I dunno, my Eldar collection has never had anything that would have counted as being of the latest meta, all the way back to 4th edition. Plenty of bikes, as it is themed as Corsairs that function like Saim-Hann, but only one Wave Serpent, and no Wraithknight.
Bharring wrote: Rangers aren't any better at shooting (exact same profile). The difference is survivability. 5+ Shrouded T3 vs 4+ Stealth T4. Mild advantage Rangers in that category. In Ruins, Rangers win. In forests, it's about equal. With worse cover, Scouts win.
I see the two as roughly equal overall.
dont the Rangers get to shoot and run like the IG ratlings?
Not quite. Rangers can't battle focus if they shoot their sniper rifles because the rifles are heavy weapons. They can shoot and run if they use their pistols instead though.
ah ok, havent seen them in the field in forever, its getting impossible to remember how special rules interact with everything
I'd say that as people keep insisting ignore cover is everywhere the scouts are better with their amour. Plus if someone charges them (which is possible as I use my sniper units to hold objectives) the scouts have a change. Rangers do not.
If you want to play the equivalent of fox-only no items final destination then just play 30k. All marines and no eldar/tau.
To answer the topic here I think really there are 3 things that eldar need fixing:
scatbikes, undercosted wraithknights, and d-spam
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.
To say space marines can't compete with the above suggestions is silly. I was under the impression that everyone spammed either grav or melta (or both). Or imperial knights? Doesn't everyone have 2 of those laying around?
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.
Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.
They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.
Really with Wraithguard when you take out all the movement ally rubbish I'd probably just go back to the 6th rules and that's really more for simplicity.
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.
Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.
They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.
they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase. Nobody thought they were undergunned before, however they couldnt just point click and delete anything in range at a whim, particularly vehicles. Under their old configuration with a unit of 5, they had about a 1 in 5 chance to explode an AV14 tank and would inflict 1.66 HP's, now they do an average of of nearly 10HP worth of damage (making the Explodes results rather pointless). If we're talking scythes they couldnt even hurt most vehicles before and now theyre amazing at AT.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're still strong as even their worst options can be better than the equivalents of other codices. People will thank you, though.
Yes, Banshees are certainly better than Thunderwolves....
As to the original topic, what you play with is irrelevant, it's how you play it. Be a good sport about everything, no one will mind too much what happens.
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.
Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.
They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.
they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase. Nobody thought they were undergunned before, however they couldnt just point click and delete anything in range at a whim, particularly vehicles. Under their old configuration with a unit of 5, they had about a 1 in 5 chance to explode an AV14 tank and would inflict 1.66 HP's, now they do an average of of nearly 10HP worth of damage (making the Explodes results rather pointless). If we're talking scythes they couldnt even hurt most vehicles before and now theyre amazing at AT.
Fair points! I guess I just feel that they're dealt with pretty much the same way as they were before. They did get an unnecessary power boost, but you can still shoot or assault them to death with the right tools. The main difference in how to react to them is that d-scythes are nastier in overwatch than before.
For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule) and don't use shooty wraiths in anything less than 1850.
Honestly, I've never understood the frustration with generic wraith guard. They murder whatever they shoot at, but that's always been the case. Coming out of webway portals, wraith guard are quite nasty (though they generally only kill one thing before dying). In wave serpents, they're very durable and good at crossing the board, but now we're talking about 300 points per wraith/serpent package. Walking across the table, you can beef up their squad size or toss protective psychic buffs on them, but that get expensive fast.
They're a solid, tough, hard-hitting unit, but they're also priced pretty well to reflect that. Plasma, krak, lascannons, etc will melt through them. Power fists will beat them in melee (though it will take a couple turns). Even a fluffy Iyanden list sporting multiple wraith guard squads can be dealt with pretty handily. If they're in serpents, they're expensive, and you can possibly ground a serpent before they reach you. If they're on foot, you can kill a bunch of them at a range if you have any kind of shooting. Webway portals are nasty, and d-scythes are problematic in that they make assaults against them less desirable, but there's definitely stuff you can do to deal with these guys.
they got a massive firepower boost for zero reason and zero cost increase.
I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.
Wraithguard have always been devastating...at least that's my experience. In 2nd ed. they auto-penetrate vehicles and everything else is just obliterated (regardless of toughness/wounds) on a simple D6 dice roll.
I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.
I mean I seem to remember 3rd edition wraithcannon being str X, where X either outright removed the model no saves allowed, or dealt 1 wound. I think it was 1-3 did 1 wound or glancing hit, and 4-6 was bye bye or penetrating hit., also not certain if it allowed invulnerable saves or not.
Massed Wraithguard are *supposed* to be devastating. If then open *multiple* Warp distortions onto something, anything, then yes, it should be pretty much auto-destroyed. Even if the individual Warp distortions are relatively small in size.
The problem is that the rules haven't always had this work properly. And it's still on a relatively killable infantry platform.
@pm713 I agree with you, except for the carnifex argument. If I recall a carnifex is t6, and a 4+ and you can give it devourers, crushing claws, etc. The wraithLord is t8, with a 3+ armour save and can take assorted eldar ranged weapons and a decent ccw. I forget if the carnifex has more wounds or can go 12", but based on the toughness difference alone it shows they're fairly equal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everybody is saying Wraithguard are balanced, and yeah I get they open a black hole or whatever, but str D on anything less than a superheavy is dirty, and you cant deny that. If their weapons were str 10, ap 1, flesh bane and armour bane, sure, that'd be fine. The part that I don't like is the d3 wounds/hull points, practically melting anything in its way.
And they have decent survivability too, they only have a 3+ but they've got t6 so it's hard to even wound them in the first place.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote: @pm713 I agree with you, except for the carnifex argument. If I recall a carnifex is t6, and a 4+ and you can give it devourers, crushing claws, etc. The wraithLord is t8, with a 3+ armour save and can take assorted eldar ranged weapons and a decent ccw. I forget if the carnifex has more wounds or can go 12", but based on the toughness difference alone it shows they're fairly equal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everybody is saying Wraithguard are balanced, and yeah I get they open a black hole or whatever, but str D on anything less than a superheavy is dirty, and you cant deny that. If their weapons were str 10, ap 1, flesh bane and armour bane, sure, that'd be fine. The part that I don't like is the d3 wounds/hull points, practically melting anything in its way.
And they have decent survivability too, they only have a 3+ but they've got t6 so it's hard to even wound them in the first place.
If you roll a land raider up next to them, then you're putting them in their element. If you throw a mob of boyz at them, then you're forcing your opponent to waste quality fire power on cheap models. Basically, the more powerful the thing you bring into their 12" range, the more effective they're going to be. It's difficult to wound them with small arms fire, but they drop plenty fast to plasma, melta, lascannons, krak, etc. They're hard hitting and tough against small arms fire, but they're also slow-moving. you can make them faster by giving them a serpent or something, but that makes them considerably more expensive. You can also tarpit them pretty well. Even a squad of tac marines or boyz or gaunts will tie them up in melee for quite a while, possibly even winning after a few rounds.
They're interesting. They're infantry that require you shoot anti-tank rounds at them to reliably kill them. Despite this, they give up a significant number of points each time you pop one. They're amazing at killing the most expensive things in your army, but you'll trade points with them efficiently using many inexpensive troops units. I'm biased, but I feel like much of the antipathy directed at wraith guard stems from people being intimidated by the "infantry model with a d-weapon" thing and looking no deeper.
Just off the top of my head, a few ways to deal with them:
Marines: Just plasma gun them or shoot them with whatever heavy weapons you brought. They'll die plenty fast to anything with high strength. Grav works well too. Assault terminators with storm shields are risky because you'll lose a lot of points each time they kill one of you, but you'll also wipe them in a single round of combat.
Tyranids: Just tarpit them with gaunts. Maybe mop them up with an MC later.
Orks: See tyranids, but with boyz. You'll actually win combat if you have a power klaw handy.
Eldar: Anything with bladestorm will trade pretty well with wraith guard.
Dark Eldar: Poison weapons make wraith guard as vulnerable as tac marines, but you kill nearly three times the points each time one falls.
Chaos marines: See regular marines.
Daemons: Daemonettes will rend them to death. Plague bearers have no more trouble killing them than they do killing marines. Blood letters are in a similar boat to daemonettes.
Harlequins: Love expensive targets with no invul saves.
Those are just a few factions, but I'm mostly focusing on ways to deal with them using troops alone. Wraith guard are scary, but they have a high price tag and exploitable weaknesses.
For all that defense of the Wraithguard, just remember that a Lascannon Marine is 2 points less. Sure there's more range, but the quality of the shot is considerably less.
@OP, besides all this bickering going on, here's what I'll say: buy, build, and paint the units you like. Field an army based off of those. Go out and play and have fun. One of the worst games I played was one I won because of who I was playing (I wasn't playing as eldar). If you and your opponent have fun, then that's what it's all about. Buy the models you like and build a feasible army. Play it. Change your list based off of your results and what you'd like to change.
Don Savik wrote: For bikes I just run 1 special weapon for every 3 bikes. Make wraithknights 400 points (easy house rule)
And funny thing is you can house rule those yourself easily if you want to give your opponents better time. You don't even need your opponents permission
Current players would probably be slapping their heads seeing how I built my eldars this week. Bikes(3) had shuriken catapults and shuriken cannon(1) People would be screaming "where's the scatter lasers!" (well answer: I can't field them. Rules don't allow them. Scatter lasers on bikes is too modern invention)
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pm713 wrote: I think there is a reason actually. In the last book GW seemed to really start pushing rules to better reflect fluff with formations, aspect special rules and such. D weapons are supposed to be the ultimate kind of weapon. Distort weapons literally open a portal to another dimension and get you sucked into it. Seems like D fits that. So they made rules reflect fluff better. Then absolutely messed it up and forgot to see if it was balanced. Like idiots.
It also went more akin to how they were before. They seem to take lots of hints from 2nd ed where wraithcannon penetrated vechiles automatically and non-vechiles had 50-50 chance of either flat out dying(teaches you from loading up on expensive characters!) or getting thrown around somewhere by getting randomly moved a bit.
What's funny is that the Eldar uber weapons suck against the bottom tier armies of Orks & Guard. Firing Wraithguard at 6-pt Guardsmen and Boyz is a total waste. Same with nuking a Trukk or Chimera.
OTOH, if you're up against Necrons, load up on the D weapons - they deserve it. Same thing if they're bringing SMs, Knights, Tau or KDK. Those are top tier Codices with strong formations, and they deserve whatever you throw at them.
In my case, if I know I'm playing a soft opponent, I can always shelve my Eldar and break out my CSM or IG. No biggie.
The wraithknight might suck against the ork/IG infantry, but the scatbikes will butcher them.
THATS why eldar are considered so cheesy, they can easily cover every single scenario.
Anyway, to avoid a cheesy Eldar list just follow 4 easy steps:
-Avoid wraithknigh
-Avoid scatterbikes (in fact, avoid bikes at all if possible)
-Avoid warp spiders
-Avoid mono-unit formations (as in, any formation that is just multiple copies of the same unit), if you take aspect shrine take each unit from a different aspect.
With these four guildlines, you can practically avoid almost any cheese in the eldar codex, while still being able to field powerful armies.
JohnHwangDD wrote: What's funny is that the Eldar uber weapons suck against the bottom tier armies of Orks & Guard.
Yeah I am having a blast fighting eldar armies with my orks. All those silly eldar players who are shooting D weapons at my grots ; )
But in all seriousness. No sane eldar player will be shooting their anti armour weapons against boys. They will one shot their transports with it and use it to obliterate the heavy armour in a few rules of shooting. The rest of their high rate of fire anti infantry weapons are perfect at murdering orks and low av vehicles, while their superior movement makes sure that they don't get in assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be fair. This tactic used to work perfectly in the 5th edition , but the current meta of high str or re-roll to wound high rate of fire weapons makes it less feasible. Even the lowly eldar guardian, dire avenger are a bane of most ork units and the popular spiders and bikes make it even worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note this doesn't make it so that you can't make a non cheesy eldar army. It just states that orks have a hard time vs most eldar armies ; )
Yes you can make a non cheesy Eldar army no problem, anyone who tells you otherwise has a chip on their shoulder and a large stick up the... well yeah, you can probably see that I'm a tad frustrated with some of these posts.
In anycase, avoid scatter lasers in bulk (especially on windrider platforms), Wraithknights, Hornets and multiple units of Warp Spiders. Seer Councils can be played but try and avoid the invisibility and fortune powers, Wraithguard in practice are a huge points sink and got hit very hard from the new draft F&Q so I would argue they are alright where they are, just don't spam the D so often (Wraithblades are fine, go crazy with them if you want).
Feel free to use formations as the majority of the cheese for the Eldar come from their codex entries (with the possible exception of the Aspect host- only non cheesy with mixed or melee units) you will not find anything on the level of the Gladius, Convocation or ripplefire Riptide Wings as long as you avoid the 'trouble units'.
A few interesting builds for you
CC lists
Doom of Mymera battlehost with 3 units of Wraithblades and an Autarch
Aspect host with 3 units Howling Banshees
Legends, Avatar / Jain Zar
Works of Vaul Night Spinners
Footdar lists featuring battlehosts headed by Warlocks, Aspect host of Dark Reaper, Fire Dragons, Swooping hawks (pre update)
CADs with Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, Night Spinners with some Crimson Hunters for a nice semi competitive TAC list
But to answer your question more directly: Yes and easier than many people would think.
Wyldhunt wrote:Wraith lords are odd. They're great in that they're tough enough to ignore strength 3
S4. That's an "8" in the toughness portion of the statline. They ignore S4 or less.
Sure, they get a 3+ save against small arms fire, but many of the weapons with a strength high enough to warrant shooting at them also ignores that save.
My krak missile is wounding a carnifex on a 2. It's wounding a wraithlord on a 4. No, you won't get a 3+ save. You will, however, probably get a 5+ cover.
So I'm hitting on 3s. I'm wounding on 4s. You're saving on 5s.
Even lascannons are only wounding on 3s.
Personally, I'd rather take my chances against the carnifex.
Being able to get toe in cover is nice though.
If by "nice" you mean "complete bull gak," then I agree with you.
The carnifex is considered a pretty bad unit in a pretty bad codex, so the comparison is a bit odd. But speaking as someone who plays with carnifexes about as often as he does wraith lords, I honestly probably get more bang out of my carnifex. The 'fex hits roughly as hard in melee, but he also gets a better hammer of wrath. Brainleech devourers are also probably better for their points than the heavy weapon options on a wraith lord are. The biggest thing, however, is that I find it easier to support my carnifexes than my 'lords. A malanthrope or venomthrope's aura can easily keep my 'fexes alive while I move up the table without costing any "extra" resources. That is to say they can help everyone around them including the 'fexes without having to give up helping my other units. I could theoretically toss psychic buffs on a wraith lord to help him out, but those same buffs are usually needed more by other units. Guide on a squad of guardians or war walkers is more effective than guide on a wraith lord. Tossing fortune on a wraith lord doesn't help as much when you consider that many of the weapons that can hurt him without wounding on 6s also ignore his armor.
You'd rather an upgraded carnifex with devourers over a wraithlord with scatter lasers?
That makes no sense to me. Yes, you might get better cover with the malanthrope or venonthrope...if they survive long enough for it to matter (if that venonthrope survives past turn 1, I'm either having bad rolls, you're having good rolls, or else, you've engaged in some fancy deployments...whenever I play against tyrranids, the venonthropes tend to be a top priority target). The wraithlord, however, has better range (once upgraded) and therefore joins the fight much earlier and is, in its own right, much more durable. Why would you want twin-linked devourers when you could have 8 shots firing from 36 inches away instead?
A wraith lord is okay for his points
OK for his points? Again, only relative to the other bull gak in the eldar codex. Compared to other things that cost roughly 120 points, the wraithlord is just fine.
He's just trash in the eldar codex because the entire codex is bullocks.
Wolfblade wrote: So, is this you moving goalposts now that someone has given you an example of a unit (or two, or three or...) that is just fine?
And that is surprising...Because?
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Galef wrote: I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'
Tyranids are kinda lacking good options for carni. Eldars have them aplenty. Unit A might be worth taking in army X because there simply isn't better but unit B that's better than unit A in army Y isn't worth taking because it's crap within that army.
I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.
Slow, short ranged and basic enough save.
Yes, they are toughness 6, but it's not the end of the world.
Either shoot them off the board, tarpit with cheap troops or out manoeuvre them.
Every army can do atleast 1 of the above.
Now, if your dumb enough to park a land raider or such near them then you deserve to have it blown up.
And as a side note, as a Tyranid player please don't compare anything to a fex.
It's shameful.
T6, low wounds, poor save for a walking battering ram, poor initiative, low attacks, need I go on?
Granted they have good strength, but that's about it.
They are also a ton of points for a poor MC.
Yes they can shoot with twin devs, but they also have BS3 and short range.
In CC they are pretty much hopeless as anything worth while as a target will kill them first.
Even with claws or a wrecking ball.
Main Eldar issue is scatter bikes.
It's a cheap troop choice with a nasty set of rules and weapons allowing it to threaten most things in the game.
All while being highly mobile and scoring to boot.
The wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.
It's when multiples are involved it gets stupid.
Jackal wrote: I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.
The AV 12 jinking skimmer? The fast vehicle that degrades penetrating hits to glances on 2s?
Is that the transport that we are talking about? That one?
the wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.
They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage (in addition to whatever other OP, under-costed bull gak you brought to the table).
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Galef wrote: I've seen people playing Carnifexes in the last few years. Haven't seen anyone play a WraithLord. Just sayin'
With all of the other OP bull gak in the codex, why would you? Why would you take a wraithlord when you have formations that allow you to spam wraithknights?
Why would you want a 120 point heavy weapons platform when you could take the much cheaper scatter bikes?
If wave serpents, scatter bikes and wraithknights didn't exist, wraithlords might see more play. "Just sayin.'"
Edit:
And is nobody going to mention Eldtritch storm? Nobody? Really?
Jackal wrote: I'm just wondering why people are ending up having wraithguard in range?
You have a transport packed with D weapons.
Common sense states you pop it quickly.
The AV 12 jinking skimmer? The fast vehicle that degrades penetrating hits to glances on 2s?
Is that the transport that we are talkingabout? That one?
the wraithknight isn't as much of an issue to me, if your only facing 1 of them.
They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage.
I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
Wolfblade wrote: So, is this you moving goalposts now that someone has given you an example of a unit (or two, or three or...) that is just fine?
And that is surprising...Because?
Not really, I just wanted to call him on it so he can ignore it, like he ignores everything that proves him wrong.
As for on topic: So long as you avoid spamming the broken stuff (i.e. if your opponent is bringing a Knight/riptide/etc, one WK is probably fine, 1 per 3 heavy weapons on bikes, if you choose to take any.)
A 100pt disadvantage huh? Have you played against a Gladius Free Transport spam or Daemon Factory? Armies are getting 300-500+ pts of extra stuff all the time.
They are 100 points under-costed. Even 1 is a problem, because it means that, for all intents and purposes, I am playing at a 100 point disadvantage.
I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
the_scotsman wrote:I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
The gladius has the potential to be unfair if you use it to spam razorbacks with 5 man squads. I don't think I've ever contested this.
Even in the thread I devoted to it, my argument was that you could get "free" rhinos and drop pods even in 5th and 6th editions if you spammed assault squads without jump packs.
And I also wish to point out that to get those "free" rhinos, drop pods and razorbacks, I have to field 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads (all of which are commonly recognized as under-performing units), a captain, a chaplain and an auxillary formation.
The eldar player gets a 100 point advantage just by putting a wraithknight model on the table.
the_scotsman wrote: I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.
the_scotsman wrote: I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.
The Eldar player can run a CAD and STILL have a glaring points advantage (for all intents and purposes). All he has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.
Even without formations, an eldar player can have a huge points advantage just by running multiple CADS, each of which has a wraithknight.
If I run a CAD, I lose my "free" transports. The Eldar player still has scatter bikes and wraithknights.
the_scotsman wrote: I forget, who was it that made that thread about how the gladius was not unfair? The formation that very easily puts one player at a FIVE hundred point advantage? It's on the tip of my tongue here...
I don't know, but I believe anyone who would claim that has no concept of game balance whatsoever, and really oughtn't be spouting off over what's "unfair" or "cheese" in other armies, lest they come off as some sort of raging hypocrite.
The Eldar player can run a CAD and STILL have a glaring points advantage (for all intents and purposes). All he has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.
Even without formations, an eldar player can have a huge points advantage just by running multiple CADS, each of which has a wraithknight.
If I run a CAD, I lose my "free" transports. The Eldar player still has scatter bikes and wraithknights.
And if you take a Gladius, you lose the benefits of a CAD, which is....obsec on...wait, that's not right either.
Hm. But there's no way this could be any kind of a double standard... after all, you've repeatedly claimed that everyone agrees with you, so it must be right...
the_scotsman wrote:And if you take a Gladius, you lose the benefits of a CAD, which is....obsec on...wait, that's not right either.
Why should I lose the benefits of a CAD if I take a gladius? To take a gladius, I have to field a minimum of 1 HQ, 3 troops and 1 heavy support.
To field a battle company, you need a minimum of 2 HQs, 6 troops, 2 fast attacks and 2 heavy supports. All of which have the word "infantry" in their statline.
The way I run mine, I end up with:
3 HQs, 6 troops, 2 heavy supports, 2 fast attacks and 3 elites.
I could easily make that CAD compliant just by running it as 2 CADS.
On the other hand, all the Eldar player has to do is put a wraithknight on the table.
Bharring wrote: So a list without a WK can't be cheesy because the WK is undercosted?
Doesn't follow from the premise.
Every wraithknight list is cheesy.
But not every cheesy list has a wraithknight.
We may express this as follows:
For all cases x, if x is a list and x has a wraithknight, then x is cheesy.
However:
It is not the case that, for all cases x, if x is a list and x is cheesy, then x has a wraithknight.
As for can a WK be in a non-cheesy list, what about something like this (didn't calculate points):
WK
Spirit Seer
2×Rangers
2xGuadian Defenders + Brightlance + Warlocks
1xDire Avengers
1 Wraith guard (cannons) unit
1 Wraith blades unit
1 Banshee unit
1 Swooping Hawks unit
1 Falcon
Simply in virtue of having wraithguard, a wraithknight and a spirit seer, it's a cheesy list.
Claiming it's not cheesy is like saying: "But I only have ONE unit of teleporting grav centurions in my list. That's not cheesy at all." The answer to this, of course, involves the feth word.
Back on the Wraithlord.
If you think it's a great way to cheaply put a pair of Scatter Lasers on the board, you should see how broken it is to put a pair of TLN AC Razorbacks on the table for about the same points. Or a tri-Las pred. Or a Havok squad with 4 ACs. How is it worth that many points just for the two Heavy weapons?
Martel732 wrote: As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?
You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.
Martel732 wrote: As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?
You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.
MLs and lascannons are unusable crap, making them non-viable solutions. Especially with BA.
Bharring wrote: Back on the Wraithlord.
If you think it's a great way to cheaply put a pair of Scatter Lasers on the board, you should see how broken it is to put a pair of TLN AC Razorbacks on the table for about the same points. Or a tri-Las pred. Or a Havok squad with 4 ACs. How is it worth that many points just for the two Heavy weapons?
1. The havoc squad can't move and fire at full BS.
2. That tri-las pred and razorback are vehicles with all of the accompanying restrictions, limitations and weaknesses.
Martel732 wrote: As BA, I have no answer at all for that WK. Does that make it cheesy or BA weak?
You have an answer to it. Run lots of missile launchers and lascannons and devote ALL of your firepower to the wraithknight for roughly 2 turns. And then shake hands with your opponent when he tables you a couple of turns later. Because you devoted all of your firepower to taking down a wraithknight.
MLs and lascannons are unusable crap, making them non-viable solutions. Especially with BA.
But martel, you only need...let's figure this out:
2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 1/6 = 16/486 = 8/243
You only need 30 or so lascannon shots to take down that wraithknight (assuming the shield/invuln), Martel!
Surely, you can pack that many lascannons into your standard TAC list?
Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!
Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.
A Dread with ano AC and a fist+heavy Flamer has moderately less firepower at range, much better close up, and still hits harder in CC. For fewer points.
Galef wrote: Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!
Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.
They don't die just like marines, because they engage at much longer distances and they can stay away from your units indefinitely if they are not being used to secure objectives. There aren't that many options for engaging T4 3+ at 36"
The WK moves 12" and assault units and wipes them out. You can ignore it, but you'll be down 3-4 units over the course of the game.
Galef wrote: Or you could do what most of my opponents do (who aren't Tau or spamming Grav). Just ignore the WK and kill literally everything else. Now instead of saying the Eldar player is "up" by 100 pts, you can say he is "down" by 300, since you needn't worry about the WK. Just position speed bumps infront of it. Ya know, the FREE ones that your army comes with!!
Ignore the jump GMC with scatter lasers and d weapons?
The jump GMC that can literally just jump over those speed bumps?
That thing?
Seriously Scatterbikes die just like Marines (flying super sonic Marines, but still). If you can't kill them, then you also can't kill 99% of all other armies either. If you can't see them due to terrain, play with less terrain.
No, they don't. Scatter bikes and marines are incomparable. Marines can't jink. Marines don't get jet pack movements in the assault phase. Marines don't have relentless.
17 ppm windriders are a joke. A forteriori for 27 ppm scatter bikes.
Windriders should be 19 ppm base and scatterlaser should be a 20 pt upgrade. That would be a fair price for their capabilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: MartEl,
Take another look at the list above.
Could you make a list that could soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of it?
Can you? Because I can't. BA don't field enough bodies and the shooting is too ineffective because Imperial heavy weapons and their platforms suck ass. Even fast predators are goddamn joke in 7th.
Bharring wrote: MartEl,
Take another look at the list above.
Could you make a list that could soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of it?
"Martel, c'mon, I'm only taking ONE unit of teleporting grav centurions. Surely, you can soak that kind of damage and still handle the rest of my list?"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Also, Trad, if a WK with a 5++ shoots anot S D weapon at you, double check the list. It can't do tbat.
It can't shoot a d-weapon. It can certainly swing one, though.
Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough. Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
Galef wrote: Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough. Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
Windriders are faster than goddamn BA. And BA are the fastest chapter there is. Even faster than White Scars.
", but they are NOT unbeatable."
You aren't playing the right Eldar generals, then.
"Marines of all varieties can do this, I"
Maybe with Gladius, but BA can not do this by any stretch of the imagination.
" If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P. "
You just dont' get it. I have nothing left to corner WITH by turn 3. Eldar pew-pew is a thing.
There is no combination of BA models that Eldar even bat an eye at, because we lack every good marine unit there is.
Galef wrote: Are other armies REALLY that slow? I can't tell you how many games I have had no escape route for my Jetbikes. the board is just not big enough.
Your 17 point jetbikes can move 48 inches in a single turn.
My rhinos can move 18.
Well, for a turn or 2. Once the wraithknights and scatter bikes shoot them to pieces, my marines can move up to 12 inches per turn (with lucky rolls...while forgoing any shooting or charging).
Until they get shot off the table by said scatter bikes.
Marines of all varieties can do this, I have seen it. Daemons can be everywhere on the board for garunteed turn 2 charges of any unti they want. Tau can just shoot them off the table. If you can't corner them by turn 3, then L2P.
Please explain to me how I would corner a jetbike by turn 3 with rhinos.
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable. Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
But surely you must be joking.
Each scatter bike gets 4 S6 attacks at BS 4 at 36 inch range.
For a measly 27 points.
What kind of tyrranid and orks lists have you been playing against?
You are coming from a viewpoint that base marines aren't garbage. So of course you are surprised when the reality that a list made up of base marines (BA) is terrible. We have no cents, no TWC, no access to telepathy, no Wulfen, no Gladius, no biker troops, and a terrible chapter tactic. Everything that makes marines marines is missing with BA.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Yeah the WK is cheese. I'm a little surprised that BA can't even handle the list I posted.
Bharring wrote: The only one of those my Marines use is a decent CT. They do fine in non-cheesy games.
Don't forget vehicle squadron bonuses, Thunderfire cannons, Stormeagles, stormtalons, 2 W techmarines, land speeder storm (this one REALLY hurts), and chapter masters.
Also don't forget that BA are arguably worse than CSM, because none of our models are as effective as plague marines and helldrakes. Yes, the CSM are more one-dimensional that way, but BA are zero-dimensional in terms of truly effective units. SG and DC are both horribly flawed units.
I suppose I have occasionally fielded a Storm talon. Chapter Masters, though, I do use fairly regularly (fleet based chapter, I like to use Orbital for fluff reasons).
BAs do have it rough. I do think you're overestimating the above list.
Bharring wrote: I suppose I have occasionally fielded a Storm talon. Chapter Masters, though, I do use fairly regularly (fleet based chapter, I like to use Orbital for fluff reasons).
BAs do have it rough. I do think you're overestimating the above list.
You're going to make sure my heavy flamers never get where they are going, then kill them on foot. The WL can just hang back and then engage my CC units because you know I have to come to you. You don't need WK to pound my CC units into paste. WL work just fine.
Before you have the gall to tell anyone to "L2P," why don't you play an orks list (with no superheavies or forgeworld)? Then you face a scatterbike and WK spam list.
And tell us how you do.
I'll be sure to have all of my "Git gud" remarks prepared and ready for use.
Why does no one get this: you don't actually have to be faster than the Scatterbikes, that is impossible. What you have to do is be where they want to be and press other units to where they are. You are trying to flush into areas where you units can then shoot or charge them.
I will concede that this tactic is difficult when the Eldar have a WK, because it means getting close to the WK. If anything, Scatterbikes and WKs are not OP when taken alone, it is how they compliment each other that is OP.
And for the record, I am THE Eldar player in my area and I know when to bring a cheesy list and when to tone it down. The biggest problem with Eldar is that newer players don't know the difference and once they start getting a grasp on the rules, they start going overboard, creating a horrible reputation for Eldar players as TFG.
Before you have the gall to tell anyone to "L2P," why don't you play an orks list (with no superheavies or forgeworld)? Then you face a scatterbike and WK spam list.
And tell us how you do.
I'll be sure to have all of my "Git gud" remarks prepared and ready for use.
I also play Grey Knighs & Dark Eldar, neither of which are close to top tier. I still do quite well in most of my games with them.
I guess in a way (rudely, I apologize) I am trying to say that I know how to beat Eldar because I play them....a lot. But everytime I try to show people how, all I get it "La la la, I can't hear you! Eldar are OP, la la la". I have tested out my theories, and instructed a few of my opponents what to do. It is often counter to how they "want" to play their army, yet every time it works.
It's got 9 Brightlance equivelent shots and 5 Sniper shots. At about 1850, wouldn't a Marine player either hug the middle ground or outshoot the list at range?
Galef wrote: Why does no one get this: you don't actually have to be faster than the Scatterbikes, that is impossible. What you have to do is be where they want to be and press other units to where they are. You are trying to flush into areas where you units can then shoot or charge them.
1. They ignore terrain (and intervening models).
2. They can move up to 48 inches per turn (while ignoring terrain and intervening models).
3. Each of them fires 4 S6 shots at BS 4.
What exactly are you expecting my rhinos to do?
And for the record, I am THE Eldar player in my area and I know when to bring a cheesy list and when to tone it down. The biggest problem with Eldar is that newer players don't know the difference and once they start getting a grasp on the rules, they start going overboard, creating a horrible reputation for Eldar players as TFG.
If there's a single WK, bike unit (of any configuration), wraithguard, wave serpent or psyker in your list, you've gone overboard, and my impression is that I've just agreed to a game with TFG.
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
pm713 wrote: Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
Likely he plays with shifting board. One that always changes just so that it's against him. There's always big huge tower for enemy to put in snipers to get LOS to everything while there's no building or anything to hide his own squad.
pm713 wrote: Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
pm713 wrote: Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
ITT:
"Just outmaneuver the bikes. It's not that hard. I can't believe you can't outmaneuver the jetbikes. L2P."
No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.
And no farseers, spiritseers...or any psykers, for that matter.
Not even one.
And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.
Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.
Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta. Space Marines have probably the widest range of minis of any faction, and that's before you count allies. Which you really SHOULD count. Not rely on, but do consider them. As well as opening up some interesting new tactics, they add a welcome break from painting wave after wave of (in my case) blue power armour.
Martel has some actually legitimate gripes; Blood Angels are pretty poor right now and his local scene seems to be filled with WAAC douchebags.
Bharring wrote: It's got 9 Brightlance equivelent shots and 5 Sniper shots. At about 1850, wouldn't a Marine player either hug the middle ground or outshoot the list at range?
No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.
And no farseers, spiritseers...or any psykers, for that matter.
Not even one.
And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.
Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.
Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta. Space Marines have probably the widest range of minis of any faction, and that's before you count allies. Which you really SHOULD count. Not rely on, but do consider them. As well as opening up some interesting new tactics, they add a welcome break from painting wave after wave of (in my case) blue power armour.
Martel has some actually legitimate gripes; Blood Angels are pretty poor right now and his local scene seems to be filled with WAAC douchebags.
They're not so much douchy I think as the Tau guy has to compete with the Eldar guy and vice versa.
pm713 wrote: Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
ITT:
"Just outmaneuver the bikes. It's not that hard. I can't believe you can't outmaneuver the jetbikes. L2P."
I am apoplectic at this point.
-Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's rule #1-
If you can't even ATTEMPT to outmanoeuvre jetbikes then that raises serious questions about your terrain.
If you can't even ATTEMPT to outmanoeuvre jetbikes then that raises serious questions about your terrain.
I'm generally the one who sets up the terrain.
I play on a 6 X 4 table and divide the table evenly into a 9 space grid, placing a sizeable terrain piece in each (mostly ruins).
I place the terrain in a symmetrical, orderly, and even fashion to ensure that both players have a relatively even advantage at the time of deployment.
I'm still not sure what you are expecting me to do with those rhinos.
To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.
Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.
Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.
Two eldar players, in this thread, have just told me that I need to outmaneuver their jetbikes.
I want to hear this explained.
You can't tell me that you're not even slightly curious?
pm713 wrote: Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.
Likely he plays with shifting board. One that always changes just so that it's against him. There's always big huge tower for enemy to put in snipers to get LOS to everything while there's no building or anything to hide his own squad.
Plus, the Eldar Codex that he plays against gives the WK twin S(D) blast cannons *and* a re-rollable Sv3++ *and* S(D) in HtH... Backed by FREE Scatbikes. And auto-hitting Wraithguard with S(D) guns that can fire 24" all the time...
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.
Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.
Two eldar players, in this thread, have just told me that I need to outmaneuver their jetbikes.
I want to hear this explained.
You can't tell me that you're not even slightly curious?
I'll make a new thread about this.
Please don't.
It's very simple. You have your army positioned in such a way that a jetbike has few choices in where to go that do not place it in some form of danger.
Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.
A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.
Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.
You have, in the past, vehemently denied needing to change your army, insisting that your opponents should tone theirs down instead. That is the most hypocritical bs I've ever heard. I'm sorry that you believe everyone else needs to come to the same conclusions as you, but that simply isn't how the world works.
Especially without a conversation. You have repeatedly stated that rather than talk to a Tau or Eldar player, your immediate response is that you simply refuse to play them. That sends out more of a message about you personally than it does about them, their faction or their list.
To the OP. Simply speaking yes you can play Eldar that isn't particularly cheesy, which is good because I'm lactose intolerant.
Same rules that apply to any army, don't spam your strongest units (wraithknights or scatterbikes mainly but don't take too many wraithguard either)
Eldar is a good army, one of the better ones at the moment. But at the end of the day as long as you are a curtious gamer and you and your opponent both enjoy the game, it honestly doesn't matter.
Some people will have fun no matter what you play, others, as you may be able to guess, will prolapse whenever you say the word Eldar.
So yes, Eldar can be played without cheese easily, don't flood your army with the strongest stuff and don't play against a whining idiot and you'll be fine.
Galef wrote: Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.
Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...
As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament! 1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!
I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.
Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.
That's not exactly the case. Free transports buys you a LOT of durability against the Eldar. If you get first turn, the Gladius really dominates the middle of the board. The firepower if very dispersed, so the Eldar can't focus it down. Once you have about 3-6 grav cannons midfield, all in different units, you can start putting on the hurt. Now the bikes have to jink every turn and the downhill slide begins, as the Eldar are simultaneously falling behind in points scored.
Galef wrote: Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.
Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...
As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament! 1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!
I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.
Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.
Tradito, you at least have a chance to counter this cheese. Have you ever tried facing Eldar with Imperial Guard? No, well let me give you a rough idea:
Turn 1
Eldar player *move*
Eldar Player *Psychic* [I remove one or two models. Maybe]
Eldar player *Shoot* [and there goes my army]
Elday player "Well, that was fun, do you want another game"?
Galef wrote: Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.
Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.
I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...
As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament! 1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!
I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.
Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.
Tradito, you at least have a chance to counter this cheese. Have you ever tried facing Eldar with Imperial Guard? No, well let me give you a rough idea:
Turn 1
Eldar player *move*
Eldar Player *Psychic* [I remove one or two models. Maybe]
Eldar player *Shoot* [and there goes my army]
Elday player "Well, that was fun, do you want another game"?
You say that, but I've had some rough games against Imperial guard with my Eldar. Now admittedly I was not using a Wraithknight but with that many Wyvern mortars plucking off my Scatter bikes, Demo vets coming out of Valks to murder my Wraithguard and a Culexus assassin with an unholy amount of Torox/chimera transports hammered my seer council and Wave Serpents, its fair to say they've got a fighting chance.
Not saying they are broken or even remotely cheesy, that may be a mono-build but I certainly struggled against it... Take from that what you will.
I would never tell a person they are playing too cheesy an army unless they build a super cheese list but putting one or two strong units with similarly "weak"eldar stuff. Just play for fun makes life much easier.
Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.
A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.
Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.
You have, in the past, vehemently denied needing to change your army, insisting that your opponents should tone theirs down instead. That is the most hypocritical bs I've ever heard. I'm sorry that you believe everyone else needs to come to the same conclusions as you, but that simply isn't how the world works.
Especially without a conversation. You have repeatedly stated that rather than talk to a Tau or Eldar player, your immediate response is that you simply refuse to play them. That sends out more of a message about you personally than it does about them, their faction or their list.
Back on topic,
It seems the consensus is that, yes, you can build non-cheesy CWE lists.
There is a long side conversation about just how cheesy Scatter Bikes are. But after the flame fest that was the sidethread, and it's subsequent locking, perhaps we should all realize we aren't going to change more minds beyond what is already written.
There was debate about a 1-WK list, and whether it was possible to have one and not be cheesy.
But instead of further derailing, let's try to explore what other selections can be non-cheesy.
The exceptions I take to some guidelines are no psykers, no Jetbikes of any kind, and no Wraithguard/D.
To that end, I submit the following alteration of a previous list:
That list has Jetbikes, Psykers, *and* ranged D Wraithguard. But is it really cheese?
The Windriders are a little better than they should be stock, but one unit should be manageable.
The Psykers aren't rolling Invisible or Fortune. And don't have Farseer runes.
The Wraithguard are footslogging. Tough, but short range, and no movement shenanigans.
The long range firepower is about what an equal points CAD of PA Marines would put out at those points. The midrange firepower is nearly nothing. The short range is noticeable.
The mobility is limited. The Jetbikes can get places, but the Windriders can't do more than that, and the Shining Spears arent too scary. A good PA Marine list could certainly outmaneuver.
The durability varies. Much of the list dies like IG. Three units are slow, tough, and have a very small threat range.
Traditio's general take is accurate, Eldar, across the board, are far too efficient points-wise.
I mean, everyone's using the gladius as some sort of counterpoint, but all the gladius does is highlight the need for Marines to have 500 or so extra points of models to be able to compete with Eldar.
So...to overly simplify...an 1850 non-gladius Space marine army would most likely find themselves on equal footing with a 1350 Eldar list.
I'm still coming to you, so short range doesn't matter at all. Yes, this list suffers terribly vs grav cannons. But not other Imperial heavies so much, due to model count.
Voidwraith wrote: Traditio's general take is accurate, Eldar, across the board, are far too efficient points-wise.
I mean, everyone's using the gladius as some sort of counterpoint, but all the gladius does is highlight the need for Marines to have 500 or so extra points of models to be able to compete with Eldar.
So...to overly simplify...an 1850 non-gladius Space marine army would most likely find themselves on equal footing with a 1350 Eldar list.
It's a problem.
That's not exactly true. As Traditio has pointed out himself a few times, the mandatory units you take that you might not have taken even out the points somewhat. For example, I would only take 3 tactical squads, and not 6. Thus sort of "returning" the free points of the rhinos. It's more of the play style of being able to control the board that damns other armies.
Take two Dev squads with Missile Launchers. Bad options on bad units. 10man units.
Take a tri-Las pred.
You still have another what, 1300 points to spend, and you're already out shooting them?
More realistically, if you want to get up close, you take some Imperial heavy weapons (even on Devs, Tacs, and Preds), and soften them up first. Then move in your CC units to handle their lighter stuff.
Or you go PG heavy, and stay at medium range. The Heavy weapons don't have the ROF to kill you, and the Heavy hitters can't get in range.
I'd use a combination. Long range to remove a Heavy threat. Plasma to cut down the Wraithguard while drawing the Heavy threats away. ASM and podded Tacs to eat the lighter stuff, as their heavy stuff can't guard everything (short of castleing, but even Plasma Cannons or a Whirlwind will make that inviable)
The list has 3 Missile Launchers, 4 Lascannon-class weapons, and a pair of Sniper squads.
If you took two Dev squads and two Sniper Scouts squads you'd match it at range. And those aren't that great.
Plasma Tac squads, any Imperial heavy weapons, Bolguns, all do good damage to the list.
Only one of the CC threats can move well, and that's got MEQ survivability for 100pts for 3 models.
Because I don't list tailor, and I never use devastators. Because they are awful. I don't use predators. Because they are awful. I don't own sniper scouts because up until a few days ago, they were awful for BA.
What would your list at that points level look like?
Automatically Appended Next Post: My SM lists aren't competitive/streamlined, but usually contain:
CAD Captain or CM on foot
10man Tac + Plas +Combi Plas vet sarge +PF +MM in a Pod
10man Tac + Plas +Combi Plas vet sarge + meltabomb +Heavy Bolter
Either a 5man Tac +Melta/Combi Melta or a Scout squad (bolters + ML or Snipers + HB+Hellfire)
10man Devs with 4xLC, combat squadded
10man Devs with 4xML or PC, also combat squared
7man ASM w/vet sarge powersword meltabomb + Flamer
Usually a Dread in a Pod.
Often a Pred as well.
Then fill to points.
A list like that I think stands a great chance vs the non-cheesy CWE list above, without tailoring.
I would think most casual lists would do OK against it.
Bharring wrote:That list has Jetbikes, Psykers, *and* ranged D Wraithguard. But is it really cheese?
Yes. It's cheese in the same sense that taking Tigurius on foot, a unit of grav centurions on foot (no drop pod) and a squad of space marine bikes would be cheesy.
It's not very cheesy. But there are cheesy components.
Lose the psyker, the bikes and the wraithguard, and we might have something there, but even then, your list will probably be much more points efficient than anything someone of another codex comes up with, simply because the title of your codex has the word "Eldar" in it.
The Psykers aren't rolling Invisible or Fortune. And don't have Farseer runes.
If Spirit Seers or Warlocks are casting Eldritch or Guide - or any Runes of Fate powers - they arent following the codex. Only Farseers can get those.
Conceal/Reveal would probably be used a lot in that list. Keeps it from completely falling apart to small arms fire. For a couple of the lighter units. Is that power really worse than book powers, even outside Invis?
Foot Cents have a 24" range, better firepower vs more targets, and a 2+. Sure, less cheesy on foothe than podded. If the rest of the list were PA Marines and/or Scouts, that wouldn't be a cheesy SM list with just them. Tiggy too might be pushing it, but it really depends on what else is there.
Martel,
The Whirlwind or two will have a heyday removing the light infantry. Those Rangers and Guardians are in for a world of hurt.
Any one Grav bike unit easily gets the alpha on Wraithguard. They go down hard to 9 grav shots (hit on 3 kill on 3 means you kill 4.5 before Bolt guns shoot. And half a WG isn't much of a threat.)
Any of the Grav bikers would kill the Wraithlord outright.
That really just leaves the Wraith blades and Banshees for CC threats. The Banshees wound you on 6s, so even if they charge they aren't necessarily winning CC, especially if your Captain is present.
The banshees are boned worse by either a Furioso or Bolt weapons end masse. There are so many hard targets for them, you use those to engage the stuff near them. If they countercharge, they lose. If they don't, they do nothing until you decide to shoot them or even charge them.
The Windriders are going to be annoying, but can't do any serious damage.
If you pick your targets right, the CWE list is down to just a handful of light infantry with no good targets getting hammered hard by your Whirlwind, one battle tank (the other might have survived, but surely jinked), and the Wraith blades which you can kite with bolt guns and grav.
Bharring, that's another problem with CWE, basically, same problem as Tau.
With Tau, you have two options:
1. Use cheese.
2. Lose
With Eldar, you have two options:
1. Use cheese.
2. Lose.
The "fun" list that you've posted has cheesy elements, but would still get stomped by any optimized (not the same thing as min-maxed), well-constructed list from another codex.
Thus, there are three reasons that the OP shouldn't buy the Eldar codex:
1. In other not to cheese.
2. In order not to present the appearance of cheese.
3. In order not to be forced into a situation where his only options are cheese or lose.
If you were playing against me, you'd be facing one of these two lists:
1. Crimson Fists - 1850 (I'd be running this as a CAD, though this is easily convertible into a gladius; all that would be added are meltabombs on assault sergeants, a captain with power fist and a chaplain)
Pedro Kantor
2 X 5 sternguard (in rhinos)
1 X 10 sternguard, combat squadded (in rhino)
2 X 5 assault marine squads (in rhinos with dozer blades), 2 of each of which have flamers
6 X 5 man tactical squads. 4 of which have missile launchers, 2 of which have plasma cannons. (1 missile launcher squad in rhino (because why the feth not?)).
2 X 5 man devastator squads, each having:
3 missile launchers with flakk and one lascannon
OR
Thousand Sons 1850 (dual CADs):
Ahriman
2 ML3 sorcerers with VotlW, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch. Force axe and boltpistol on one, stave on the other.
2 X 5 man thousand sons squads (in rhinos)
2 X 5 man havocs with VotlW, one with lascannons, the other with meltas (melta havoc in rhino )
2 X 5 man raptor squads with VotlW, combimelta and meltabombs on sergeants and 2 meltaguns in each squad
1 X 5 man CSM squad with VotlW, plasma gun (in rhino with dozer blades)
1 X 5 man chosen squad with VotlW, 2 of which have flamers (in rhino with dozer blades)
1 X 10 man cultist squad with 8 autoguns, shotgun and heavy stubber
Neither of these is a competitive list (though both are optimized for what they are). Neither of these is cheese...but I don't foresee things going well for the CWE player in either case.
"Thus, there are three reasons that the OP shouldn't buy the Eldar codex:
1. In other not to cheese.
2. In order not to present the appearance of cheese.
3. In order not to be forced into a situation where his only options are cheese or lose. "
This is nothing short of bonkers.
Here is the only reason the OP should buy the Eldar codex:
1) if he wants to.
It's his money, it's his hobby, and the reasoning of "his opponents might decide to be jerks to him because they're biased against the kind of little plastic mandolls he chose to play with" is profoundly sad.
I really can't do anything more than shake my head at the idea of someone not purchasing an army they like to "avoid the appearance of cheese."
If a list is a large collection of choices, each with varying affect on cheese levels, and it is shown that both a non-cheesy list and a cheesy list can both be made, I left it to the reader to understand the point was you can make lists of any strength level in between.
I wouldn't take Storm Guardians, but Banshees and Shining Spears show up often. With the CWE codex, you can build a list at about any level.
I was showing what I believe to be a concrete example of non-cheese. As such, it's an extreme. Obviously, the intention is to create a list at the local meta's level, not try to field the above exactly.
I would argue that the above list, and discussion of it, show this. Effectively proving the premise thathat non-trivial non-cheesy lists can be created.
All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.
I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.
Optimized =/= min-maxed
A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.
A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.
All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.
I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.
Optimized =/= min-maxed
A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.
A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.
It isn't optimized because Heavy Bolter Devastators are bad. Even frickin Plasma Cannons are better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It isn't optimized because Heavy Bolter Devastators are bad. Even frickin Plasma Cannons are better.
I fully agree that heavy bolters are bad (the sole exception would be in imperial fist tactical squads). That doesn't make a heavy bolter devastator squad any less optimized. I'm using "optimized" in a very broad sense to mean: "non-superfluous, non-wasteful and best geared for its task." If you want to kill light infantry at range, a heavy bolter devastator squad is optimized for that purpose.
12/1 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 48/6 = 24/3 = 8/1
You'll kill 8 orks in 'eavy armor per turn with that squad at 36 inch range.
8/1 X 2/3 = 16/3
About 5 if they're in cover.
Does that make devastators with heavy bolters good? No. But it does make that squad well-geared for what it's supposed to be doing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also wish to note, for what it's worth, that a heavy bolter devastator squad would make footdar lists cry.
In 40K circle "optimized" is synonymous with "best" and that's what most people will think when they see the term, so I suggest you use it in that context and not try and fabricate some other application.
All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.
I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.
Optimized =/= min-maxed
A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.
A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.
I mean you are splitting your Devastators roles, giving the same unit ML's and Lascannons.
You are also lacking other staples such as armour and drop pod units and you are not taking any of the formation that could give you that boost.
Your Chaos one also lacks any real hard hitters and both dreads, and armour could add a lot to them.
master of ordinance wrote:I mean you are splitting your Devastators roles, giving the same unit ML's and Lascannons.
On paper, it looks like it. In practice, it doesn't really work out that way. Missile launchers and lascannons are both basically anti-tank; anti-MC weapons. When you add in imperial fist chapter tactics, the differences are relatively negligible. The only time the disparity is even noticeable is 1. against flying AV, but even then, if my opponent wasn't going to jink because of the 3 flakk missiles which reroll failed to-pen rolls, he's going to think twice about that lascannon shot which hits on 6s, glances on 3s and rerolls failed to-pen and 2. against targets with a 2+ armor save. At T6 and 3+ armor or inferior, missile launchers and lascannons are functionally equivalent. Against flying MCs, krak missiles and lascannons are functionally equivalent. Against wraithknights, the difference is negligible.
Basically, unless I am playing against terminator spam, landraider spam or flying AV spam, it doesn't make much of a difference.
The difference is also noticeable against light infantry spam, but then it's the lascannon shot that seems like a waste.
You are also lacking other staples such as armour and drop pod units and you are not taking any of the formation that could give you that boost.
Your Chaos one also lacks any real hard hitters and both dreads, and armour could add a lot to them.
At that point, we're not talking about "optimization" in the sense that I used the word.
But, back to Bharring:
What list can he possibly think of that:
1. Won't suck against an optimized, non-competitive list
2. Will not be OP compared to an optimized, non-competitive list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: It's not optimized because it has devastators in it.
IF devastators are great. Have you read what imperial fists chapter tactics do?
"IF devastators are great. Have you read what imperial fists chapter tactics do?"
They're still trash, because they are still meqs with heavy weapons. The IF chapter tactic does not help you take down MCs. I'm still gonna frag them off the table before they can hurt me badly. And I'm using a weak army. Also, killing vehicles isn't hard anyway, so it's not a very good chapter tactic, imo.
Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.
Like what?
I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.
I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.
I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.
Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.
I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.
I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.
I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.
You won't be able to.
What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.
Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close. As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.
Also, ASM =/= warp spiders. Banshees or Scorpions sure. And Sternguard =/= wraithguard or fire dragons, maybe dire avengers, but eldar don't have a great analogue for sternguard.
Wolfblade wrote:Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close.
I may simply not be understanding how the units are supposed to operate, but what I'm seeing in that list is a bunch of foot-sloggers with a few AV heavy weapons platforms.
Against that list, I'm building a rhino wall in the middle of the map, shooting missiles at the things that can get close to my gunline the fastest and using special ammo against any infantry that get too close.
And the list wouldn't have either the numbers to really soak the damage, or else, the fire power to make me really worry.
As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.
Vs. infantry, the heavy hitters are Ahriman and the ML3 sorcerers. Psychic shriek spam, yo.
If I win the roll for first turn and score a roll of 2 on the d3 for Ahriman's WL trait, that's a unit of chosen, in a rhino, with ahriman infiltrating turn 1. 3 psychic shrieks turn 1, and that's just from Ahriman.
If his CF force sits back, I think they win fairly easily.
If the CWE screens with Wraith blades, he's moving forward about 10in a turn. So the Sternies at least 2 turns of shooting in, probably 4. Half at rapid fire range. That's more than enough to kill tbem.
Meanwhile, from 48" away, the Devs toast either the Wraithlord or the Wraithguard fairly easily before either gets in range to do much. Which one depends on how fast they move up.
Once a target is down, they switch to the Wraithguard, which if they're being screened, are plenty far away. They fall down dead to Krak missiles quickly. Either Hellfire or Vengeance rounds won't make them happy.
The other sternie squad can support either target.
The 6 Tac squads put a few shots into each tank until it either jinks or goes boom. The Vyper is next. Any remainder helps clean up the Wraith units.
The CWE long range firepower will kill probably 5 Marines a turn if you don't get great cover. Less, likely.
The ASMS do need to worry about the Banshees. But you're holding back. So that doesn't matter until later in the game. Even the handful of storm bolters will put pressure on squads like Banshees and Storm Guardians, though. And, when they get close is, one Tac squad just lights them up.
Hawks are annoying, but can't do much damage. When the real that's are dead, you'll have the firepower to waste on them. That, or just engage them with Boltguns.
Shining Spears might eat a squad, but you can force them at Tacs. Then kill them. They are T4 3+, 3 models for about 100 points. Windriders will be annoying, but can't do enough damage to matter. They'll hold something while you deal with the bigger threats, b7t won't really do anything.
This mostly leaves just a pair of incoming Krak missiles, up to 4 snapfiring Lascannon equivelents if CWE is lucky, and 10 Sniper shots. The remaining Eldar, after you blunt their spear, just wait for you to mop them up. And between Bolt guns, and if need be, Assaults, nothing survives much.
If anything, a Maelstrom game where you're forced to move up to them prematurely is CWE's best chance.
Martel732 wrote: Bharring, so you think my BA lists can overrun that CWE list?
I think that BA would have a harder time of it. The CWE list he proposed is full of foot-slogging, relatively slow-moving infantry supported by a small number of easily-poppable tanks.
Against my list, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel, because all I have to do, in typical Imperial Fist fashion, is castle up and hold the line.
Against BA, it would be tougher, because your list works at really short range. You actually have to close in.
You'd still easily stomp that list, but you'd take more casualties.
Martel732 wrote: Bharring, so you think my BA lists can overrun that CWE list?
I think that BA would have a harder time of it. The CWE list he proposed is full of foot-slogging, relatively slow-moving infantry supported by a small number of easily-poppable tanks.
Against my list, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel, because all I have to do, in typical Imperial Fist fashion, is castle up and hold the line.
Against BA, it would be tougher, because your list works at really short range. You actually have to close in.
You'd still easily stomp that list, but you'd take more casualties.
Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.
Like what?
I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.
I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.
I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.
Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.
I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.
I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.
I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.
You won't be able to.
What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.
1) Compared to MLs I assume? If so, a comparable choice would be reapers with Starshot missiles, right? If so, the Dark Reapers are 4 points more expensive. For special rules they get Ancient Doom (usually you can ignore that one), Battlefocus which is fairly nice as they get to run after they fire their Heavy weapons, and the rangefinder to get rid of Jink. Their anti-infantry option usually has an edge over the devs frag missiles against high quality targets, but against light infantry the frags will generally win. The marines get Tank Hunter as you are running IFs, and they get ATSKNF, arguably the best morale rule in the entire game. So depending on the type of hard target, either the marines or the reapers could have the edge. The only really relevant statline difference is the marines' +1T. Doesn't really seem like a bad deal for -4 ppm on the devs?
2) Why would a guardian squad with a heavy weapon platform not be what you take to correspond to a marine squad with a heavy weapon? Oh, right, because the marine squad has an advantage there, and we're trying to go with the premise of it being impossible to make a corresponding army list. The guardians are indeed much cheaper, but the Marines get some serious advantages over them, namely 3+ vs 5+ armor and +1T, guns that can fire at 24" range and not just 12", and against chapter tactics, atsknf, all that jazz. In a footslogging fight, the Marines will generally win if the marine player is smart enough to not let the guardians get first strike with battlefocus.
3) I'd say the Fire Dragons are more likely to be what's taken here, because the cost is far closer. A full combi-melta sternguard squad is only 25 points less than a FD squad in a serp, wheras it's something like 80 points less than the wraithguard squad even before they take scythes. The Fire Dragons have an offensive edge with their explodes on 4+ melta attacks, and their transport is more reliable making them slightly less likely to turn into a suicide squad, but the marines have a drop pod to get them guaranteed right where they need to go, even first turn. And after that first turn, the marines have sternguard ammunition and the usual better stats. They're both squads where they're very likely to pop out, melta something, then promptly die, but that big money strike is far easier to play around in the case of the FDs than the Sternguard because the sternguard just show up. The Serpent makes for a much better sustaining threat after the FDs have done their thing, if you don't do something like get it in melee the turn the dragons get out or shoot it in the rear armor that it has to present to drop the dragons off, but the squad is a base of 25pt more expensive. Again, not seeing how this is not something pretty comparable.
4) Huh? What does a warp spider do that corresponds to what an assault squad does? Why would the corresponding Eldar squad not be something like Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions? Or heck, at that point the more accurately corresponding unit would be storm guardians with 2x melta in a serpent, who play basically the same way rhino-borne assault marines do....i.e. try to be a melta unit and kind of suck at it, and then wish they could get into melee.
Trad,
That isn't really how building an equal-level list works. You don't just fill in analogues.
Further, your analogues and comparisons are off:
Dark Reapers vs Devs: Reapers are better, but they aren't cheaper. The stock Reaper is a Heavy Bolter analogue. It costs 1ppm more. Sure, it's worth more than the increased cost, but it's not cheaper.
Reapers with Star shot are another 8ppm. Better than MLDevs, though.
While they are better, it's also not in every way. MLDevs cost less, are T4, are passible in CC, have ATSKNF, and CT. Oh, and IHCT is really good for those MLDevs.
I wouldn't call Windriders the analogue to Tacs. Maybe SM Bikes. The analogue to an aggressive PlasTac squad is DAs. The analogue to a Heavy weapons Tac squad is Guardian Defenders. The closest CWE has to a Melta or Flamer Tac squad is Storm Guardians. In all these cases aside from Windriders, the Tacs compare at least reasonably. Often much better.
Podded combi-Melta Sternies is kinda sorta FDS in a Serpent. That can be argued ad nauseum about which is better, but it's certainly not a huge difference in favor of the FDS on a per-point level.
Non-Combi Sternies don't have a CWE analogue. CWE don't have toolbox units like that.
Wraithguard are maybe analogous to Vindicators. With delivery, better. Without delivery, not so much.
A Waveserpent is a great transport compared to a Rhino, model for model. But how does it compare to four rhinos? It could stand to be worse. The shield's shooting needed a bigger nerf. But beyond that, it isn't that scary. It costs a lot of points.
Assault Marines in Rhinos is nothing like Warp Spiders. Without jet packs, they're better Storm Guardians. With Jet packs, they are Striking Scorpions. Compared to Striking Scorpions, it's +1T vs Stealth, and Infiltrate/MtC vs a Jetpack. Pretty darn close.
As for your challenge, if the average player looked at a random list with power within the range their codex can handle, an "equivelent" list they spin up to match it exactly will probably either win 60%+ of games or lose 6p% of games. It's a very difficult request. That isn't CWE specific.
Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.
Like what?
I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.
I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.
I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.
Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.
I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.
I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.
I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.
You won't be able to.
What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.
1) Compared to MLs I assume? If so, a comparable choice would be reapers with Starshot missiles, right? If so, the Dark Reapers are 4 points more expensive. For special rules they get Ancient Doom (usually you can ignore that one), Battlefocus which is fairly nice as they get to run after they fire their Heavy weapons, and the rangefinder to get rid of Jink. Their anti-infantry option usually has an edge over the devs frag missiles against high quality targets, but against light infantry the frags will generally win. The marines get Tank Hunter as you are running IFs, and they get ATSKNF, arguably the best morale rule in the entire game. So depending on the type of hard target, either the marines or the reapers could have the edge. The only really relevant statline difference is the marines' +1T. Doesn't really seem like a bad deal for -4 ppm on the devs?
2) Why would a guardian squad with a heavy weapon platform not be what you take to correspond to a marine squad with a heavy weapon? Oh, right, because the marine squad has an advantage there, and we're trying to go with the premise of it being impossible to make a corresponding army list. The guardians are indeed much cheaper, but the Marines get some serious advantages over them, namely 3+ vs 5+ armor and +1T, guns that can fire at 24" range and not just 12", and against chapter tactics, atsknf, all that jazz. In a footslogging fight, the Marines will generally win if the marine player is smart enough to not let the guardians get first strike with battlefocus.
3) I'd say the Fire Dragons are more likely to be what's taken here, because the cost is far closer. A full combi-melta sternguard squad is only 25 points less than a FD squad in a serp, wheras it's something like 80 points less than the wraithguard squad even before they take scythes. The Fire Dragons have an offensive edge with their explodes on 4+ melta attacks, and their transport is more reliable making them slightly less likely to turn into a suicide squad, but the marines have a drop pod to get them guaranteed right where they need to go, even first turn. And after that first turn, the marines have sternguard ammunition and the usual better stats. They're both squads where they're very likely to pop out, melta something, then promptly die, but that big money strike is far easier to play around in the case of the FDs than the Sternguard because the sternguard just show up. The Serpent makes for a much better sustaining threat after the FDs have done their thing, if you don't do something like get it in melee the turn the dragons get out or shoot it in the rear armor that it has to present to drop the dragons off, but the squad is a base of 25pt more expensive. Again, not seeing how this is not something pretty comparable.
4) Huh? What does a warp spider do that corresponds to what an assault squad does? Why would the corresponding Eldar squad not be something like Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions? Or heck, at that point the more accurately corresponding unit would be storm guardians with 2x melta in a serpent, who play basically the same way rhino-borne assault marines do....i.e. try to be a melta unit and kind of suck at it, and then wish they could get into melee.
Actually, the dark reapers can't battle focus despite having the rule because battle focus specifically doesn't allow you to run if you shoot a heavy weapon. They do get Slow & Purposeful though. I largely agree with the rest of what you said.
Wolfblade wrote:Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close.
I may simply not be understanding how the units are supposed to operate, but what I'm seeing in that list is a bunch of foot-sloggers with a few AV heavy weapons platforms.
Against that list, I'm building a rhino wall in the middle of the map, shooting missiles at the things that can get close to my gunline the fastest and using special ammo against any infantry that get too close.
And the list wouldn't have either the numbers to really soak the damage, or else, the fire power to make me really worry.
As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.
Vs. infantry, the heavy hitters are Ahriman and the ML3 sorcerers. Psychic shriek spam, yo.
1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius vs a very casual list that the eldar are using. Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents), or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks), or simply swapping out the low fire rate weapons (BL/EMLs) for shuriken cannons for some more mid strength fire power.
2. You're facing a decent amount of LD9-10 on units you want to shriek (max of what, 7 shrieks assuming none fail, peril and die, or get denied), and assuming they're all in range. And yeah, shrieks can be nasty, but against the wraith units you'll (on average) get 1 wound per 2 shrieks (average roll of 10.5 minus their 10 LD), 1.5 vs the aspects, and 2.5 until the warlocks die in the guardian squads. As for the blades, with axes they also have a 4+ invul save. For reference, your lascannons will put out 2.5 wounds (4 fire, 3 hit, 5/6 of those wound) on anything before saves (shriek ignores cover however), and the melta havocs (assuming gun) would be right in the range of everything else (i.e. the 2 squads of 10 guardians and windriders with their assault 2 S4 psuedo rending gun), or rangers picking out the special/heavy weapons in squads once the rhinos go down.
I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)
Bharring wrote: It's not the Heavy that stops them from running. Even if they don't fire (never seen that happen), SnP doesn't allow running.
Is it not both that prevents running? Pretty sure a ranger can't snipe with his rifle and then run. I could be mistaken and don't have my book in front of me.
If I was going to build an analogous, troop heavy Eldar list to go up against the IF list you posted earlier, you'd see:
HQ: Illic Nightspear (corresponding to Pedro as a moderately priced melee focused named character HQ)
Troops:
2x 10 man DA squads with Exarch (Corresponding to Sternguard with no weapons, anti infantry specialists)
3x Guardian Defender squads with EMLs and Warlocks (corresponding to tactical squads with Rockets)
2x Storm Guardian squads with 2x flamers in Wave Serpents (corresponding to assault squads)
Heavy Support:
2x Dark Reaper squads with Starshot and EML Exarch (Dev squads)
Elites:
10x Striking Scorpions with Scorp Claw Exarch (for Illic to pal around with. much more of a 'loose correspondence' here, these guys are analogues to the general melee flexibility your force has that mine lacks.)
Unless I'm counting wrong, your model count is higher, your squad count is much higher, but my troops are generally better at their specialized roles. That's the classic Eldar vs Marines dynamic, and I feel like not only are these lists analogous, they are fairly even in terms of matchup.
The matchup may be a bit dull, because troopspam gets dull pretty quick, but that wasn't even difficult, let alone impossible, to figure out.
the_scotsman wrote: If I was going to build an analogous, troop heavy Eldar list to go up against the IF list you posted earlier, you'd see:
HQ: Illic Nightspear (corresponding to Pedro as a moderately priced melee focused named character HQ)
Troops:
2x 10 man DA squads with Exarch (Corresponding to Sternguard with no weapons, anti infantry specialists)
3x Guardian Defender squads with EMLs and Warlocks (corresponding to tactical squads with Rockets)
2x Storm Guardian squads with 2x flamers in Wave Serpents (corresponding to assault squads)
Heavy Support:
2x Dark Reaper squads with Starshot and EML Exarch (Dev squads)
Elites:
10x Striking Scorpions with Scorp Claw Exarch (for Illic to pal around with. much more of a 'loose correspondence' here, these guys are analogues to the general melee flexibility your force has that mine lacks.)
Unless I'm counting wrong, your model count is higher, your squad count is much higher, but my troops are generally better at their specialized roles. That's the classic Eldar vs Marines dynamic, and I feel like not only are these lists analogous, they are fairly even in terms of matchup.
The matchup may be a bit dull, because troopspam gets dull pretty quick, but that wasn't even difficult, let alone impossible, to figure out.
I think you may be thinking of Yriel rather than Illic. Illic is the sniper guy. Yriel is the spear guy with the laser monocle.
IMO, if you're trying to match SMs directly, wouldn't you instead take mostly Sv3+ units: with Scorps/Spiders as the foot/JPAM equivalents, FDs as the Vanguard units? And no WL as the Dread-equivalent?
Or is your design brief to spam the most dudes with the least armor? IMO, a Guardian-based horde is anti-fluff.
Wolfblade wrote:1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius
The list I proposed was a CAD. No captain, no chaplain, and the rhinos are all paid for.
Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents)
Except, this is exactly what I was talking about. The eldar player has 2, and exactly 2, options:
1. Use OP bullgak
or
2. Lose
Yes, the eldar player can use both OP bullgak and utter garbage in a combination that makes the OP bullgak seem less OP due to the numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that in order to beat my non-competitive list, you'd pretty much be forced to bring things like wave serpents and jet bikes. Otherwise, you're going to get shot off the table trying to cross the no-man's land that is the entire table.
That's just part and parcel of playing Eldar. Ditto for the Tau.
or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks)
Supra. In order to beat my CAD, you'd have to use gak like a formation that gives you +1 BS simply for spamming a unit of your choice.
If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.
And it's not because my list is amazing [It's essentially average: it will stomp bad lists but get stomped by competitive ones.] It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground.
I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)
Again, that wasn't a gladius. That was a CAD. I agree with you that you'd have to take bikes to stand a chance, but that only proves my point about the eldar codex.
John,
Spiders are nothing like ASMS, although Scorps are great analogues for ASMS with packs.
FDS are nothing like Vanguard, but they are like Combi-Sternies. Vanguard could be considered analogous to Shining Spears, though.
The list he put together would, fluff wise, be unlikely to have a Wraithlord. Balance wise, it is a good analogue.
Some forces do, fluffwise, field a lot of Guardians. Just trying to match the armor, though, can be misleading. For instance, there isn't a 3+ unit that is analogous to a 5man Tac squad with a heavy weapon. As he listed, the closest really is the Guardians.
The ASM squads in the specific list are a foot unit with CCW/pistol, who's purpose is to put a couple Melta shots into something. The only thing close to that is Storm Guardians.
CWE don't have a Rhino equivelent. Our cheapest transport is 120 points naked. It's a good transport, but not analogous really.
Bharring wrote: Martel,
If you tried to overrun the CWE list, it could go either way. Just rushing in with everything isn't your best option.
If you instead picked it apart, piece by piece, you'd destroy them handily.
Even your list would win the midrange game.
I guess overrun was a poor choice of words. My tacs usually hide in the Rhinos firing heavy flamers, for example. By overrun, I was thinking end up your side of the board eventually. TWC they are not.
I feel like I could overrun Traditio's list, though.
Or 3,
Use moderately powerful stuff, which is neither OP nor crap. Like Hawks and Dire Avengers and Scorpions.
Or 4,
While an army full of a specific unit may be OP, an army with a limited amount of it may be fair. If the CWE list above added a Scatter Laser to one Jetbike, the list is not OP.
Just like if you had a 10000 point game and had Tiggy in it, the list isn't necessarily OP.
Or a Tau list with all Crisis Suits with no weapons except for one Riptide. Sure, the Riptide might be OP, but the list is not.
JohnHwangDD wrote: IMO, if you're trying to match SMs directly, wouldn't you instead take mostly Sv3+ units: with Scorps/Spiders as the foot/JPAM equivalents, FDs as the Vanguard units? And no WL as the Dread-equivalent?
Or is your design brief to spam the most dudes with the least armor? IMO, a Guardian-based horde is anti-fluff.
The assertion was that it was impossible to design a list analogous to Traditio's Missile Launcher troop heavy marine list without ending up with more units that did everything better than the corresponding marines because Eldar are broken. Instead, I ended up with fewer models with lighter defenses more specialized in their roles than the marine equivalent, allowing for a well balanced matchup. Go figure, a codex with as many options as the marine codex has plenty of lower to mid tier options in it as well.
The posted list was 3x sternguard squads with no special weapons, 2x assault squads with 2x flamers in rhinos, 6x 5-man tactical squads with a ML each, 2x ML/Lascannon Dev squads, and Pedro Kantor. There was no dread, so I didn't include a wraithlord. There were other 'rough analogues' as well. Since Rhinos are about three times less expensive as Serpents, I included fewer serpents to give each army roughly the same "amount" of armor, and since Eldar have no inherent CC ability I included a CC specialist unit for Yriel to pal around with.
And yes indeed I was talking about Yriel, sorry, I always get Illic and Yriel mixed up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's have a debate between Page 1 Traditio and Page 7 Repeatedly Proven Wrong Traditio:
"No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.
For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise."
"If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.
And it's not because my list is amazing [It's essentially average: it will stomp bad lists but get stomped by competitive ones.] It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground."
Wolfblade wrote:1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius
The list I proposed was a CAD. No captain, no chaplain, and the rhinos are all paid for.
Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents)
Except, this is exactly what I was talking about. The eldar player has 2, and exactly 2, options:
1. Use OP bullgak
or
2. Lose
Yes, the eldar player can use both OP bullgak and utter garbage in a combination that makes the OP bullgak seem less OP due to the numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that in order to beat my non-competitive list, you'd pretty much be forced to bring things like wave serpents and jet bikes. Otherwise, you're going to get shot off the table trying to cross the no-man's land that is the entire table.
That's just part and parcel of playing Eldar. Ditto for the Tau.
or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks)
Supra. In order to beat my CAD, you'd have to use gak like a formation that gives you +1 BS simply for spamming a unit of your choice.
If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.
And it's not because my list is amazing. It's essentially average. It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground.
I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)
Again, that wasn't a gladius. That was a CAD. I agree with you that you'd have to take bikes to stand a chance, but that only proves my point about the eldar codex.
1. Alright, didn't realize it was a CAD.
2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded. And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted, and the ability for everyone to grab a heavy is what makes them OP. However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport. Honestly, how is it OP? Because it's better than a rhino or razorback?
3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)
4. I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure this list would give you trouble:
HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles
OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable. No bikes, No WKs, 2 wave serpents (oh no! the entire list is broken by mid range fire support!), 15 missiles as the only non melee S7+, a squad could easily be swapped out for a wraithlord w/ glaive, and 2 star cannons leaving 40 points left over for whatever. Points wise, troops are a total of 690 followed only by HS at 615, elites at 437, HQ at 105, total of 1847
Yeah, you would wind up on their side most likely. You long range is mediocre. But your midrange has some kick. More than enough to force him to engage on your terms. Where you would destroy.
The game would start with a furious blur around his attempt to get in range of you. You'd then force him to divide and be conquered or castle and get templated by pushing with your threats cautiously, and bringing in the Dreads from other directions.
He's forced to expose his big stuff and watch them die fast, or hide behind his small stuff, which you destroy easily without giving him a chance to bring his big stuff to bear.
The game would end when you charged the last impotent CWE unit, doing its best to hide.
In my head, it plays out as a beautiful game, even if "my" forces are getting destroyed.
Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.
I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.
25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.
And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted
17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.
However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.
Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.
Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]
3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)
I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.
Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.
But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.
You lose. Badly.
Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.
Yeah, you really can't hide from BA for long. They are fast, if nothing else. Pay the points for dozers and armor on Rhinos and you can go almost anywhere super fast.
AV 13 dreads with 4 attacks and move through cover and rerolling charges vs vehicles are actually a good unit now. They would be excellent without hull points. But AV 13 is high enough that many weapons can't inflict said hull points fast enough.
HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles
OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable.
The list that you've proposed has three OP units: dark reapers, wave serpents and farseers. Replace those with non-OP units, and the list is terrible.
Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.
I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.
25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.
And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted
17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.
However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.
Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.
Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]
3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)
I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.
Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.
But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.
You lose. Badly.
Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.
Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.
Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.
The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.
You know what happens against a Tau list without Riptides or super heavies? You play a game and see who wins. It isn't a flat win or lose thing.
Bharring wrote: It's not the Heavy that stops them from running. Even if they don't fire (never seen that happen), SnP doesn't allow running.
Is it not both that prevents running? Pretty sure a ranger can't snipe with his rifle and then run. I could be mistaken and don't have my book in front of me.
There are a few things that are preventing Dark Reapers from using Battle Focus.
1. it only works with Heavy Weapons if the model has Relentless.
2. Slow and Purposeful disallows a unit from Running.
3. This is the big one - Dark Reapers do not have Battle Focus.
Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.
I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.
25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.
And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted
17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.
However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.
Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.
Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]
3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)
I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.
Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.
But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.
You lose. Badly.
Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.
Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.
Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.
The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.
You know what happens against a Tau list without Riptides or super heavies? You play a game and see who wins. It isn't a flat win or lose thing.
As someone who has played tau since 4th, I can tell you I have won MANY games, and some tournies, with no tides, and now no surges. One of my best out-of-the-box lists has 3 units of sniper drones and aunva... Most competitive play comes down to the general, not the units (though that isn't to say you can win with a turd, as a turd will always be a turd lol)
As for Eldar, a buddy of mine has repeatedly used 3 units of scorpions and they are SO much better than people give them credit. The only unfortunate unit in the codex I see is banshees, there is just no good way to use them with no run and charge and no open topped or assult vehicle transport :/
HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles
OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable.
The list that you've proposed has three OP units: dark reapers, wave serpents and farseers. Replace those with non-OP units, and the list is terrible.
OP my ass. I also stated you could reduce the dark reapers and swap in a wraithlord, hell you could even swap in 3 giving it more of a melee presences, then add something worth 120 points, like another barebones wave serpent? Farseer is literally the only psychic support in the list, and is incredibly easy to kill with a 4++ and t3 and 3 wounds, especially when put with a MELEE ONLY SQUAD, and not even rolling for invisibility. Wave Serpents cost in this list cost 145pts, so they better have SOMETHING for only a transport capacity of 12, no firing points and not opened topped. Hell I didn't even put on scatter lasers on them for cheap long range firepower, or starcannons for the AP2. And there's TWO of them. If your missile spam can't kill them at 24inches, I can't help you, especially when they're not even that dangerous in this list, except for the one turn where they pop their shield.
Can you even name why those units are "OP"? A decent comparison of a similar tank?
pm713 wrote:Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.
Pointing these things out is simply disingenuous, since these things are not likely to come up very often. So what if your dark reapers can't overwatch? They fire at 48 inch range. So what if they can't run? They have 48 inch range and slow and purposeful. So what if they are bad at CC? They have 48 inch range, and if your opponent is deepstriking or drop-podding something in specifically to kill them in close combat, my devastator marines won't do much better than your dark reapers.
25 ppm simply does not properly assess their actual in-game utility. Especially vs. MEQs.
Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.
You're mistaken about the twin-linked thing. If you have an SM opponent who uses the signum to twin-link one of his heavy weapons, he's either misinformed or cheating. Signum only boosts the shooting to BS 5. If he's getting re-rolls to hit, he's either using Ultramarines chapter tactics or a librarian (or both).
At any rate, the rest of what you said is simply irrelevant if we are attending solely to intended combat roles. My devs can overwatch, but so what? If they're getting assaulted, it's over for them. If they're running, they're not shooting. And if they're even moving normally to reposition themselves, they're snapshooting.
Do you realize how busted my devastator squads would be if they had slow and purposeful?
And you also fail to note how your autarch has AP 3 barrage blasts.
The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.
Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?
If someone is fielding a 110 point Serpent, they're cheating.
If you're unhappy that a generalist squad (Marines) get edged out at the role by a very focused and specialized squad (Aspect Warriors), while winningetting handily at every other role, perhaps you shouldn't play generalists? Why is it fair for a generalist to be as good or better at a specialization than a specialist? I still think Reapers are better, but not nearly as much better as you think. How they perform on the table beyond their role is indeed important.
(Also, doesn't that ammo runt option give twinlinking? I'll never field one, but it exists...).
At the end of the day, reapers are using missile launchers. Can't hurt 2+ armor, nor the problem MCs in the game, except WKs. They are also very unreliable against AV 13/14. Not a power weapon at all.
Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?
The predator is better armed than the wave serpent (again, barring the one shot shield, in which case they're about even).
Plus, a tri-las pred has 48" range, and better mobility than dark reapers, and is 5pt cheaper than the wave serpents I put in my list! (and will probably kill one or two before the waves get in range, each pred dealing 1.17 HP or so to a wave, not counting any damage pens may or may not do)
edit: Whoops, list is over by 7 points, so drop the exarch's weapon on the banshees and its good.
Bharring wrote: But wouldn't 3 Lascannon shots do a lot more than 3 S6 Pseudo rending shots at 24"?
I don't count on Imperial heavy weapons to do anything. Ever. You can tell that from my lists. The predator is doing nothing if it's constantly being shaken on the side armor.
Hey wait a sec. First in thread we have guy claiming entire codex is pile of OP gak. Can't even play non cheese army if you use eldar.
Then suddenly put in some restrictions and you can't beat same guys army aparantely...
...So wait a sec. If it's impossible to not build cheesy army from codex how same codex cannot create army that beat his army if certain restrictions are put in?
...So totally broken OP army(since you cannot make non-cheesy army from codex) cannot beat his army...So it's actually his SM that are truly horribly broken OP piece of junk that needs nerfing because OP army cannot beat his army!
Martel732 wrote: I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.
Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.
My challenge remains:
No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.
Make a list that will beat mine.
Hint: It can't be done.
It can still be done. Your list isn't very good. Devastators are awful. I can shoot all your devastators to death with war walkers and wraith lords and falcons. Then you die.
Martel732 wrote: I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.
Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.
My challenge remains:
No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.
Make a list that will beat mine.
Hint: It can't be done.
Only if you don't get to use transports, as you're banning the eldar transport. Otherwise no, as now you're adding stupid restrictions for no reason other than to keep moving the goal posts so you're not "wrong". Reapers, Farseers, and Wave Serpents aren't nearly as broken as you think. But yeah as Bharring said, spam starcannons. (I however fully expect you to ignore this post, as you tend to do when people start proving you wrong), just like how you start putting up random restrictions.
pm713 wrote:Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.
Pointing these things out is simply disingenuous, since these things are not likely to come up very often. So what if your dark reapers can't overwatch? They fire at 48 inch range. So what if they can't run? They have 48 inch range and slow and purposeful. So what if they are bad at CC? They have 48 inch range, and if your opponent is deepstriking or drop-podding something in specifically to kill them in close combat, my devastator marines won't do much better than your dark reapers.
25 ppm simply does not properly assess their actual in-game utility. Especially vs. MEQs.
Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.
You're mistaken about the twin-linked thing. If you have an SM opponent who uses the signum to twin-link one of his heavy weapons, he's either misinformed or cheating. Signum only boosts the shooting to BS 5. If he's getting re-rolls to hit, he's either using Ultramarines chapter tactics or a librarian (or both).
At any rate, the rest of what you said is simply irrelevant if we are attending solely to intended combat roles. My devs can overwatch, but so what? If they're getting assaulted, it's over for them. If they're running, they're not shooting. And if they're even moving normally to reposition themselves, they're snapshooting.
Do you realize how busted my devastator squads would be if they had slow and purposeful?
And you also fail to note how your autarch has AP 3 barrage blasts.
The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.
Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?
You need to learn your rules my friend. SM have the armourium cherub do they not?
If you can't get anything at all to my back line I suggest you look at other options in your book. Tyranids can do it.
That's simply not true.You could charge my reapers with tactical marines and have an ok chance of taking them out.
My autarch has no such thing. My exarch can get one which again removes most of the accuracy with scatter and you realise that's 60 points for an easy to kill model?
I'll take either of those things. Predators have nice range.
It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.
But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad. What's a predator even going to kill on a 7th ed battlefield? Opposing Rhinos? Okay.
It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.
But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad.
I had the Infantry already? Nobody is going to take an army of just Predators.
I guess my philosophy is that marines should be mid-field or in the enemy deployment zone. Not in the rear with the gear. BA infantry is pushing to heavy flamer range, vanilla infantry to grav cannon range.
I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.
It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.
But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad.
I had the Infantry already? Nobody is going to take an army of just Predators.
I guess my philosophy is that marines should be mid-field or in the enemy deployment zone. Not in the rear with the gear. BA infantry is pushing to heavy flamer range, vanilla infantry to grav cannon range.
That's fair enough.
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Xenomancers wrote: I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.
That seems an exaggeration of it's power. My experience has been that 6's don't make a significant difference barring incredible luck and if we count luck it all goes out the window.
Xenomancers wrote: I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.
Bladestorm only gives AP2, it's not rending.] Nevermind, misremembered the rule, my bad
Xenomancers wrote: I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.
Xenomancers wrote: I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.
Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game. Bladestorm is especially gruesome for DK. It's one of the reasons the GK are middleish-lower tier.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Martel732 wrote: Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.
And yet is far less useful against things like dark eldar, most orks, guard, etc. Which is kind of interesting. It actively discourages some of the more problematic units (though not by enough) while not having much effect at all on many of the weaker units. Though I'm afraid I've failed to follow how this relates to the current line of conversation.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.
Martel732 wrote: Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.
And yet is far less useful against things like dark eldar, most orks, guard, etc. Which is kind of interesting. It actively discourages some of the more problematic units (though not by enough) while not having much effect at all on many of the weaker units. Though I'm afraid I've failed to follow how this relates to the current line of conversation.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.
What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.
What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.
What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?
10 DA.
You understand the point that its less effective against things like Orks similar to Grav though.
It seems unlikely that the 10 DA will get that close to those units without taking a lot of damage before hand or being charged shortly after. Whereas the Lascannons can be at the other end of the board.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
I've taken guardians to tournaments specifically to try and get lucky against problematic things like GMCs, but spamming shuriken weapons isn't something I really see competitively. D-weapons usually do it better. I've seen bike-heavy lists that trade scat lasers out for shuriken cannons to deal with GMCs though.
Martel over-exaggerates a bit though. Bladestorm is nice, but many MCs (including dread knights) can still negate a good number of pseudo-rends with cover or invul saves. GMCs have more trouble doing that as of the unofficial FAQ (no toe-in cover), but you're usually fishing for 6s against those. In a fairly realistic scenario, you'll have a 10 man squad of shuriken catapults generate about 2 rends, 1 of which will be ignored by a 4+ cover save.
For non-GMCs, I actually prefer dark eldar poison as I can force my opponents to roll a lot of dice often at greater range. Splinter wracks also make it easier to load up on hits if I'm going the raiders+warriors route, and poison wins out over bladestorm against many bike units. I'm always perplexed by the aversion people have to bladestorm. it's nice, but it's generally not a game changer. Sure, I'll occassionally get lucky and wipe a squad of terminators by virtue of rolling a ton of sixes. Sometimes gretchin wipe out terminators by virtue of those terminators rolling a bunch of 1s.
That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.
Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.
What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?
10 DA.
You understand the point that its less effective against things like Orks similar to Grav though.
It seems unlikely that the 10 DA will get that close to those units without taking a lot of damage before hand or being charged shortly after. Whereas the Lascannons can be at the other end of the board.
To play Slaanesh's advocate, Avengers actually have pretty decent range. 6" move, possibly adding an extra 6" from a serpent transport, 18" range, and an extra 4ish inches if you need to battle focus first. They can reach pretty far. They *are* rather susceptible to return attacks though.
Martel732 wrote: That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.
I think that's a fair point. I disagree but I don't think it's worth us arguing back and forth considering our opinions seem somewhat similar.
It's a very good rule, but it's not the rule that makes Eldar so hard to handle for the have-not lists.
"do about as much to TEQ as a Plas/Combi Plas squad. "
But they don't pay for the plasma. That's why it's so good. Yeah, you can't hurt vehicles, but in 7th, who cares? Something else bad will happen to the vehicle.
pm713 wrote: Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.
Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.
Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?
Were talking about can you play eldar without cheese...the answer is no. Bladestorm is standard on most non optimal units.
Martel732 wrote: That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.
Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.
Respectfully, I find this an odd sentiment, Martel. If your biggest problem with it is that it discourages units you struggle to deal with, then shouldn't you be glad bladestorm exists?
"My marines can't deal with dreadknights. Fortunately, the presence of eldar means I see fewer dreadknights."
Martel732 wrote: That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.
Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.
Respectfully, I find this an odd sentiment, Martel. If your biggest problem with it is that it discourages units you struggle to deal with, then shouldn't you be glad bladestorm exists?
"My marines can't deal with dreadknights. Fortunately, the presence of eldar means I see fewer dreadknights."
But it doesn't. People just take their chances with DKs anyway. Eldar already had D weapons to wipe up DKs, but they get this as well. Compare to CSM or Orks, who get what?
Bladestorm is even more effective vs 2+ infantry, since each wound degrades the squad's capabilities. Bladestorm makes terminators and SG even more unplayable.
I'm not sure I'd call bladestorm cheese, though. Killing almost anything from 36" is cheese.
I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?
I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.
Mostly because it overpunishes units that are already suffering against the ion accelerator. It's funny. I think the ion accelerator is more BS than any single weapon the Eldar have. But the Eldar have more synergistic weapons going for them.
Thinking about it, bladestorm isn't the cheese nearly as much as the Eldar being able to remove any unit that is not vulnerable to it (vehicle) with casual ease.
I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?
I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.
I don't know...I think Gauss is probably in the category you are talking...but bladestorm is kinda gauss plus 1 isn't it? It loses out on vehicle targets but vs non vehicals removes all armor saves? I'd always trade generalist for specialist any day of the week!
I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?
I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.
I don't know...I think Gauss is probably in the category you are talking...but bladestorm is kinda gauss plus 1 isn't it? It loses out on vehicle targets but vs non vehicals removes all armor saves? I'd always trade generalist for specialist any day of the week!
Bladestorm is meta-superior because vehicles suck balls right now.
Considering the lot of us already discussed bladestorm at length previously, we should probably let this train of conversation die or at least start another thread.
That said, I rather like bladestorm as I find it fluffy and useful without being a game changer. Sort of a "critical hit" mechanic. I'd be fine with it being weaker or even going away, but I'm glad shuriken catapults got something to distinguish themselves from bolters beyond being assault.
As for terminators, chaos marines, and orks, those are all known problem units, and not just in comparison to eldar. To me, shuriken catapult toting units are largely fun and fluffy. I'd rather see stragglers elevated to a reasonable-but-effective power level before considering taking away bladestorm.
Galef wrote: Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you
I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.
Martel732 wrote: I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.
Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.
My challenge remains:
No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.
Make a list that will beat mine.
Hint: It can't be done.
Today I learned that dark reapers, spirit seers, shining spears, and even the lowly warlock are overpowered cheese. Who knew that a psyker that cannot even keep up with a space marine librarian was such an oppressive beast on the board. I would have thought that most people would think that base dark reapers were just fine given that they are good for basically nothing but killing space marines.
Oh boy and woe unto the man who has to take on walking wraithguard. Those things are a literal nightmare trotting across the board with their 12" guns. Watch aghast as they kill nearly three tactical marines in one round of fire. With their amazing 6T and 3+ save they take a whole two units of devastators shooting missiles to kill them.
Your list is lacking the mighty unkillable warp spider. A unit that is what more overpowered than most of what you listed above. So if I was going to make a list that beats yours I would just run a ton of those. Unless you want to move your goalpost again. Then probably just 200 guardians so I could hear you tell me how overpowered they were too.
Galef wrote: Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you
I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.
10 DA with shred generate 10 wounds vs meqs, yielding 3.333 kills.
Currently, 10 DA generate 2.22 rends, and 4.444 regular wounds for a total of 3.7 kills.
Not a huge improvement, but it gets stupid vs 4+ armor.
Galef wrote: Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you
I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.
10 DA with shred generate 10 wounds vs meqs, yielding 3.333 kills.
Currently, 10 DA generate 2.22 rends, and 4.444 regular wounds for a total of 3.7 kills.
Not a huge improvement, but it gets stupid vs 4+ armor.
Shred also doesn't stack with doom. When you get to fish for 6's twice...it gets stupid.
Bharring wrote: I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.
The 10 pages weren't a total loss.
To me it read more like people upset about marines failing to kill every other unit without breaking a sweat, protected by plot armor.
Then your're reading it wrong. The scatterbike threatens a lot more than marines trivially. Cheap S6 is way too good in 7th ed because it basically kills everything in the game. And then the WK.
Bharring wrote: I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.
The 10 pages weren't a total loss.
To me it read more like people upset about marines failing to kill every other unit without breaking a sweat, protected by plot armor.
Then your're reading it wrong. The scatterbike threatens a lot more than marines trivially. Cheap S6 is way too good in 7th ed because it basically kills everything in the game. And then the WK.
Yeah, a unit of 3 kills 2.22 Marines with one round of shooting, while the marines kill only 1.11 Jetbikes - assuming 10 bolter shots - 2.22 Jetbikes in Rapid Fire range.
The marines have improved Fearless, the Windriders LD 8. Windriders are strong on the offense, but die just like tactical marines and are much more vulnerable to fleeing off the board.
The WK is undercosted in 7th, which isn't really an issue unless someone brings a bunch of them.
After all, GW does assign point values using wild guesses and messes up the process by handing out free gear and a boatload of special rules willy nilly.
This thread had people complain about a number of other units though - psykers, reapers - which is hilarious especially from SM players. Imperial Psykers are the best channelers in the game, get force, cost less, protect their neighbouring units and have access to more disciplines. A reaper exarch that misses (2/3 chance) is unlikely to hit any models that turn.
Not to nitpick, Stephanius, but in what way do you figure a DR exarch has 2/3 chance to miss? Are you talking scatter, in which case wouldn't you factor in subtracting his BS of usually 5?
No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.
A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.
Marines flee off the board like any other unit. They just don't get swept in assaults that either don't happen because scatterbike or can't win because WK. ATSKNF is basically useless in 7th because marines just die enmasee to shooting. No assaults necessary.
Martel732 wrote: No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.
A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.
Marines flee off the board like any other unit. They just don't get swept in assaults that either don't happen because scatterbike or can't win because WK. ATSKNF is basically useless in 7th because marines just die enmasee to shooting. No assaults necessary.
That's funny, because I was under the impression that you got some other kind of auto-rally with full capability function the following turn. I must have been imagining that, I'm sure ATSKNF isn't the strongest free morale ability in the game.
ATSKNF is good for 1 thing - not getting swept in assault. Keep in mind this causes more harm than good most of the time. Also keep in mind it does not save you from the worst part of falling back - falling off the board! Fearless is 100% better.
A Dev squad at the board edge might fall off. Podding backfield, holding midfield, or advancing up a flank all make it so the Tac squad has no chance to run off the board.
Bharring wrote: A Dev squad at the board edge might fall off. Podding backfield, holding midfield, or advancing up a flank all make it so the Tac squad has no chance to run off the board.
Irrelevant when they're all dead. Which is what Eldar make them. There is no holding midfield against Eldar unless you've got 500 pts of free transports.
Maybe. But remember that BA also have this rule and it does diddly squat for us. ATSKNF does not make the meq statline any more viable vs hardcore Xeno firepower. Lack of ATSKNF doesn't help Xenos back at all in 7th. In 3rd, sure. But not anymore. It's a trash rule.
Sure, against cheesetastic firepower, the squad is lilely to be wiped. But against less-than-cheese, it takes a nontrivial amount of firepower to wipe a full Tac squad.
Marines might see more full unit wipes than other forces largely because its typically the last few Marines that matter. The first few deaths do little.
Compare this to most Xenos. First, the first few kills typically reduce the squad's effectiveness fully, instead of just being ablative wounds. Then, to add to this, why kill the last 3 guys in a Xenos squad when they can kill 4 from another squad?. Add to that, if you kill a couple guys from a xenos squad, you have about a 35% chance of rendering them useless for at least a whole round. Not so with Marines.
Ive had a 10man DA squad break top of 1, and get assaulted before they could fire full BS again, just because 4 CSM shot them with boltguns outside rapid fire range. Sure, that specifically is rare. But that thing isnt even possible for Marines.
Bharring wrote: Sure, against cheesetastic firepower, the squad is lilely to be wiped. But against less-than-cheese, it takes a nontrivial amount of firepower to wipe a full Tac squad.
Marines might see more full unit wipes than other forces largely because its typically the last few Marines that matter. The first few deaths do little.
Compare this to most Xenos. First, the first few kills typically reduce the squad's effectiveness fully, instead of just being ablative wounds. Then, to add to this, why kill the last 3 guys in a Xenos squad when they can kill 4 from another squad?. Add to that, if you kill a couple guys from a xenos squad, you have about a 35% chance of rendering them useless for at least a whole round. Not so with Marines.
Ive had a 10man DA squad break top of 1, and get assaulted before they could fire full BS again, just because 4 CSM shot them with boltguns outside rapid fire range. Sure, that specifically is rare. But that thing isnt even possible for Marines.
Everyone sees more unit wipes because 7th ed. The marines just lose out on one of their purported advantages because of this.
the_scotsman wrote: Not to nitpick, Stephanius, but in what way do you figure a DR exarch has 2/3 chance to miss? Are you talking scatter, in which case wouldn't you factor in subtracting his BS of usually 5?
Sorry for being unclear. Yes, I meant firing the Tempest Launcher without LOS. I find that deployed visible isn't great combined with T3 and 4 wounds - assuming a minimum squad of 3 elves at 110 points.
The bottom line is that when more and more weapons treat a marine like a grot, the biggest losers are the marines. Yes, it sucks for other models, but marines still lose the most. That's not to say the marines don't have their own counter-cheese, but 500 pts of free vehicles to be good basically says the basic marine is garbage now. It's a white flag from GW.
