I know, they're old news at this point, but this is the first I've run into them. Out of the 20 or so people I play only one of them has Wolves, and even then he has 3 other armies so I've only played against SW two or three times in the past year. Also, I've played a lot less this year than years prior, so wasn't too concerned about actually reading the rules for them. I heard people crying about 50 attacks on the charge (which I guess a squad of 10 actually can do) and that they were broken and all that but dismissed it all as people exaggerating like they do with all new additions.
I'll start by saying I wasn't running an amazing army, a lot of DW and some RW, 2 dev squads,a nephilim, a bunch of tacticals on foot... okay it was a pretty bad list. I wasn't worried though because he too was running mostly foot infantry outside of some drop pods, a land raider, the SW flyer, and of course 2 squads of 5 wulfen with 2 TH/SS and 3 axes.
I start off just plinking at them with bolters, only to find out just now that they have 2 wounds and FNP. Tac squad gets butchered by them. My 5 black knights open up with rapid plasma, only kill 1 of the shield ones, fail a 6 inch charge. His wolfen charge, I deal a wound with overwatch, then my squad gets wiped before I make a single attack.
Okay, let's take these guys on with DW knights! Fail a 5 inch charge, get charged, fail my attacks miserably, he rocks his saves, squad gets wiped.
Get pissed off, turn the collective firepower of my entire army on them and wipe them out, but they had already killed over double their points in models.
I mean, I really don't think wulfen are that bad. If I had gotten the charge off instead of their stupid axes killing me I would've done better, he rolled his invulns on the shields really well, rolled the best FNP I've ever seen, I ignored them for the first two turns so I could blow up his land raider, I should have just had my invisible 10 termi and zeke and azzy squad go for them instead of butchering tac marines by the hundreds.... I made a lot of mistakes that I will NOT be making again.
In the last game I played against SW, my 5 Sicarian Infiltrators butchered 3 Thunderpuppies before they got even to swing on the first turn after their failed charge and on the next turn did the same to the Wulfen. Granted, the death frenzy got my Infiltrators killed but it was funny nonetheless. It's not often that you beat SW in melee with a shooting army!
What the Wulfen really don't like are Rapier Quad Mortars. S8 AP4 with high volume of fire. After you make the TH/SS puppies fail just 1(!!!) save with no FNP the unit just disappears.
Yeah, the way to beat them is to hit them with lots of S8. Battle Cannons work pretty well, Missile Launchers if you can bring them. It only takes a couple wounds to drop their shields then, and after that you've got a fairly easy time dealing the rest of the damage you need to.
I do have a feeling my guard would do much better against them than my DA. My DA relies heavily on melee and psychic powers with a ton of plasma, but 2 of those things don't work well against wulfen and psychic isn't very reliable. When I finally got around to shooting his wulfen with lascannons I took them out pretty quickly, but for the first 3 turns I was taking out a dreadnought, a land raider, and a hovering flyer on a landing pad, which at the time seemed like the priority targets as I thought my melee units would stand a chance against them.
I really don't know why I continue to put faith in my terminators, this was even more proof that they really aren't that good. Normally I never get them into melee with anything, now I get them into melee and they fall flat on their face. You'd think a squad of melee only terminators that cost more than them and specialize in killing marines would, you know, be able to kill the thing they're designed to kill. Maybe I should listen to everyone and shelf my DW knights.
kingbobbito wrote: I do have a feeling my guard would do much better against them than my DA. My DA relies heavily on melee and psychic powers with a ton of plasma, but 2 of those things don't work well against wulfen and psychic isn't very reliable. When I finally got around to shooting his wulfen with lascannons I took them out pretty quickly, but for the first 3 turns I was taking out a dreadnought, a land raider, and a hovering flyer on a landing pad, which at the time seemed like the priority targets as I thought my melee units would stand a chance against them.
I really don't know why I continue to put faith in my terminators, this was even more proof that they really aren't that good. Normally I never get them into melee with anything, now I get them into melee and they fall flat on their face. You'd think a squad of melee only terminators that cost more than them and specialize in killing marines would, you know, be able to kill the thing they're designed to kill. Maybe I should listen to everyone and shelf my DW knights.
Feels like the Ravenwing stasis weapons would be helpful against the Wulfen. Then send in your Knights and seal club those lil buggers!
Rotary wrote: Can I bring them in a khorne list? I need them apparently, 2w fnp and lots of attacks!
Five attacks on the charge I could deal with. It's the fact that it's S8 AP2 I5, yes, initiative 5, that really does it
Power fists that hit on initiative (and 5 of all things) don't belong on a squad that can dish out 50 attacks. They just laugh as a 10 man squad of DW knights puts out 10 attacks like that, but only initiative 4, and only once per game.
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angelofvengeance wrote: Feels like the Ravenwing stasis weapons would be helpful against the Wulfen. Then send in your Knights and seal club those lil buggers!
That's what I was thinking, but I always have the grenade launcher guy out front because plasma is generally more valuable and he died to shooting before wulfen were in range. Will definitely have him towards the back if I play against wulfen again. Either that or start using a darktalon instead of a nephilim, would also mean a potential D drop on them.
To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
The curse is that they're furries and that's heresy.
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
They didnt get the memo that theyre supposed to lose their grenades/shields/th/ss when they get daemonically fondled like csm are. +1 stat is all youre supposed to get!
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
The curse is that they're furries and that's heresy.
Pardon the pun but their curse is purely fluffy.
Fluffwise they're speeding up the degeneration of the Space Wolves' gene seed, effectively putting a countdown clock on the chapter, my bet is turning the Wolves into Khorne Daemons.
Rotary wrote: Can I bring them in a khorne list? I need them apparently, 2w fnp and lots of attacks!
Five attacks on the charge I could deal with. It's the fact that it's S8 AP2 I5, yes, initiative 5, that really does it
Power fists that hit on initiative (and 5 of all things) don't belong on a squad that can dish out 50 attacks. They just laugh as a 10 man squad of DW knights puts out 10 attacks like that, but only initiative 4, and only once per game.
Careful, the big axe only swings at Initiative 5 if they charge. Otherwise, it swings at Initiative 1.
I played my GSC against them a few weeks back, and in all honesty I don't see what the fuss is about. Drown them under a tonne of Fearless Acolytes, they'll lose models every turn and never be able to get out of combat.
... what if you don't have 60 Fearless Acolytes to play with? I dunno. Bring some as Allies?
Ill be totally honest, it just sounds like you didn't play very well, and you got bad rolls.
13 bolter shots from a space marine kills a shield wulfen. Usually a squad of five has about two of those. Then you flatten the rest with AP4 or better, S8+ if you have that.
If you have some way to slip around them and get an angle on a non-shield wulfen? You get to skip the dakka-ing through all the shields. Say, slapping them with a Thunderfire cannon, which usually easily splatters the back ranks and then maybe the two with shields survive. Maybe.
People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!"
Just because they're not trash like possessed, terminators, or ork nobz doesn't mean they're anything better than middle of the road or close to comparable with anything like a competitive list. Getting frustrated with wulfen? Try a screamerstar, lol.
the_scotsman wrote: People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!" .
Harlequins have a ton of good attacks at high initiative, function pretty well out of the box. But people don't complain because they die like flies to any type of shooting.
DW knights for instance are durable, and hit hard in melee, but with fewer attacks and at lower initiative, so that's also fine.
Wulfen have the best of both world, plus their plethora of special rules. They even have a build-in insurance: if they die first in melee, then they get free attacks, just to be sure that they make their points back. Their only weakness is S8+ shooting, but not every army has that in their arsenal.
I've fought wulfen a few times with my IG. There's a guy in my store that likes to run thunderwolves and wulfen backed up by dev squads and a fire raptor. I agree that they are absolutely beast in meelee. You're correct that IG have an easier time I believe because we can spam str8 easily and even a lot of barrage weaponry that will get around those pesky storm shields.
I've also realized that Heavy flamers are their bane because even with those storm shields in the front they're making so many saves they die fast. Keep in mind too that wulfen are very expensive. Their 4+ armor saves are their weakness as there's so much Ignores cover AP4 weaponry in this game that it's ridiculous. It's the reason I don't waste my time using stormtroopers or kitting any guardsman out with carapace.
chrispy1991 wrote: I've fought wulfen a few times with my IG. There's a guy in my store that likes to run thunderwolves and wulfen backed up by dev squads and a fire raptor. I agree that they are absolutely beast in meelee. You're correct that IG have an easier time I believe because we can spam str8 easily and even a lot of barrage weaponry that will get around those pesky storm shields.
I've also realized that Heavy flamers are their bane because even with those storm shields in the front they're making so many saves they die fast. Keep in mind too that wulfen are very expensive. Their 4+ armor saves are their weakness as there's so much AP4 in this game it's ridiculous. It's the reason I don't waste my time using stormtroopers or kitting any guardsman out with carapace.
Which is funny, because I consider AP 4 to be the biggest failure in the game. Mainly because of cover, but also because of the commonality of 3+.
chrispy1991 wrote: I've fought wulfen a few times with my IG. There's a guy in my store that likes to run thunderwolves and wulfen backed up by dev squads and a fire raptor. I agree that they are absolutely beast in meelee. You're correct that IG have an easier time I believe because we can spam str8 easily and even a lot of barrage weaponry that will get around those pesky storm shields.
I've also realized that Heavy flamers are their bane because even with those storm shields in the front they're making so many saves they die fast. Keep in mind too that wulfen are very expensive. Their 4+ armor saves are their weakness as there's so much AP4 in this game it's ridiculous. It's the reason I don't waste my time using stormtroopers or kitting any guardsman out with carapace.
Which is funny, because I consider AP 4 to be the biggest failure in the game. Mainly because of cover, but also because of the commonality of 3+.
Yeah, I edited my post sorry. I meant to say there's tons of ignores cover AP4 in the game. But yes, it is ironic that AP4 weapons would suddenly be very useful against above all, a space marine army type.
Insectum7 wrote: Don't you get the Heavy Flamer option on Tacticals as BA?
Yes, but it's suicide trying to get close enough to use them. Basically I have zero options vs SW. I can't shoot well enough to make them notice and then they just run over all my units like they aren't even there. It's real assault vs faux assault. Neither army shoots well, so that's what it comes down to. If only DC weren't a goddamn joke in 7th.
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
Yeah, they don't like that to the point where they don't wipe them out of existence and do not declare SW extremis perdita, and they get away with it, with a slap on the wrist...
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
Yeah, they don't like that to the point where they don't wipe them out of existence and do not declare SW extremis perdita, and they get away with it, with a slap on the wrist...
SW and GK are the two mary sue chapters. That's why I hates them.
I haven't fought them, yet. On paper, they look tough as nails. I know, understatement of the week. I would like a chance to play against them, though.
Wulfen would be a lot more fair if they couldn't take storm shields. That was unnecessary. It's just another super unit that's best counter is the scatterbike or any other Xeno wound spam with poor AP.
GoonBandito wrote: To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!
The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that
Yeah, they don't like that to the point where they don't wipe them out of existence and do not declare SW extremis perdita, and they get away with it, with a slap on the wrist...
SW and GK are the two mary sue chapters. That's why I hates them.
That's not nice Martel, your blood-mad Vampire Angels are no different in that way, they just have a worse codex.
Having a spammy theme is very different from being the bestest at everything and having no downsides for anything. The fluff for SW and GK is absurd. Way worse than BA. BA is mostly being in over their head in different fights.
And the word "wolf" shows up way more than "blood" in the respective codices.
They don't need it lol. Grav is a crutch for the have-not meqs.
Oh, I thought BA were the have-not MEQs.
They're the even more have-not meqs. As was pointed out in another thread, the vanilla marines are kept afloat by a handful of units and gimmicks. Very powerful gimmicks, however. BA lack literally all of these successful gimmicks.
I know GK are not that good on the table right now, but the DK is still way better almost any marine unit and their fluff is absolutely nuts. SW get units of MCs with stormshields and powerfists. Enough said. The only thing better than MCs are entire units of them. With wargear. Wulfen and TWC are both criminally undercosted but I guess that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th. Although it's worth pointing out that Wulfen and TWC can run over units and models that even grav struggles with.
For more perspective my last two games against Gladius went to turn six and seven with me losing by single digit VPs. My last two vs SW was me conceding on turn 3.
For more perspective my last two games against Gladius went to turn six and seven with me losing by single digit VPs. My last two vs SW was me conceding on turn 3.
That's just because balls-out assault armies tend to work in the extreme like that, while the Gladius is a resilience list. I don't think that has anything to do with power levels.
What are the "units of MCs" that SW get? (and how are Thunderwolves/Wulfen not a gimmick?)
TWCs basically have the statline of a weak MC and can take wargear to boot. They are more points efficient than nearly any MC to boot. The only MCs in the league of TWC are DK and Riptide.
TWC and Wulfen function excellently as they are without invis shenanigans, crazy formations, etc. That's where I draw the line between gimmicks and excellent units. I don't consider Eldar a gimmick army, just undercosted.
The vanilla marines, on the other hand, are largely an overcosted army propped up by power combos like superfriends and outright free units. TWC, on the other hand, can get their stormshields and just charge right over whatever the feth they want.
Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.
gummyofallbears wrote: Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.
Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.
gummyofallbears wrote: Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.
Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.
I'll agree with the second point, but they really aren't MCs...
The only thing they have in common with an MC is multiple wounds and AP2... But they only have two, and T4.
TWs still have to pay to get AP 2, so definitely not an MC equivalent. And I'd call a power-armored-semi-wolf-man riding a giant wolf just about as gimmicky as it gets.
Anyways, this is off-topic, so I'm done.
I've never fought Wulfen in 7th Ed. I doubt I'd enjoy it, but once I see what they're about I'll adjust for it. Seems like the ol' Land Speeder squadron with six Heavy Bolters would be semi-reasonable, honestly. Especially if you Deep Struck so the Shields wouldn't be tanking shots.
Insectum7 wrote: TWs still have to pay to get AP 2, so definitely not an MC equivalent. And I'd call a power-armored-semi-wolf-man riding a giant wolf just about as gimmicky as it gets.
Anyways, this is off-topic, so I'm done.
I've never fought Wulfen in 7th Ed. I doubt I'd enjoy it, but once I see what they're about I'll adjust for it. Seems like the ol' Land Speeder squadron with six Heavy Bolters would be semi-reasonable, honestly. Especially if you Deep Struck so the Shields wouldn't be tanking shots.
Do you run those standard, or are you counting on list tailoring? I have found that running into SW blind is where they are really unstoppable.
Do you run those standard, or are you counting on list tailoring? I have found that running into SW blind is where they are really unstoppable.
Occasionally. They can be my go-to if I'm not bringing Assault Squads. Although Drop Podding Assault Squads with double Flamer seem ok against Wulfen anyways. Podding behind the shields with Grav and Bolters will take it's toll, too.
A 4+ and FNP is basically a 3+. A 3+ (shield) with a FNP is not quite a 2+. At only T4 they're still fairly Bolter-able if you can get enough shots on. The 2W and FNP are reasons it's handy to have some Lascannons around once the Shields are down. They're obviously a tough squad, but I don't think they need to be tailored for, you just need be ready to engage them in a favorable way. I think the OP (and not through any real fault of his own) probably got caught off-guard and then the rolls went poorly. I wouldn't have known their stats personally, or even having asked, I may not have grokked their resilience/lethality right off the bat.
Actually, thanks to this thread I probably am more prepared if I do see them on the table.
Martel732 wrote: I'm rather anal and get the low down on every unit my opponent puts on the board. I just can't usually do anything about it.
Oh I do to, I just don't always really grasp the implications. Sometimes it's clear enough to form a plan around, sometimes some detail catches me off guard and I only understand a unit after I've lost some of my own.
And sometimes it's the other way around, like I didn't really appreciate the various buffs of my Hounds of Abbadon until my Raptors (of all things) started killing more than I expected in CC.
Martel732 wrote: Having a spammy theme is very different from being the bestest at everything and having no downsides for anything. The fluff for SW and GK is absurd. Way worse than BA. BA is mostly being in over their head in different fights.
And the word "wolf" shows up way more than "blood" in the respective codices.
I was talking about the Red Thirst and Black Rage being prominent mutations same as the Wulfen, no way in any Hell-like dimension am I going to claim the word 'wolf' and all the associated words don't get used WAAAAY too often in the SW codex. In the fluff it actually gets used a lot less, they've got more vikings in space to them. The only difference with the Blood Angels is they get the annoying word association spread over three words rather than one.
The Space Wolves actually have been in trouble with the Imperium for the Wulfen on multiple occassions, mostly with the Inquisition. They recently had a few planets suffer Exterminatus by the Dark Angels and an Inquisition Purging on Fenris itself by the Grey Knights.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Pardon the pun but their curse is purely fluffy.
Fluffwise they're speeding up the degeneration of the Space Wolves' gene seed, effectively putting a countdown clock on the chapter, my bet is turning the Wolves into Khorne Daemons.
I've fought a squad of 10 wulfen twice ... two separate games using my Genestealer Cult. I was frightened of them at first in game number one, but my First Curse squad (Patriarch and 'stealers) got the charge on the wulfen and destroyed them.
Game two my First Curse formation got charged by 5 thunderwolf cavalry, 10 wulfen, and 1 HQ-type guy on a thunder wolf. The combat went over two rounds. Patriarch ends up killing the SWHQ in the second round of the challenge. Some of the 'stealers drop 2 of the 5 thunderwolf, and chew through 7 of the 10 Wulfen before he finally takes the squad out ... by then the rest of my cult was ready to shoot the *bleep* out of them and finished them off.
So my situation may just be conditional since The First Curse is a pretty damn potent formation...
Well lucky us Stormshield is a forgotten piece of technology that Admech don't know how to make anymore and there is only a few of them per chapter so only the most Elites of elites can have the small numbers they have of it..., right?...
oh wait no..., when i look at SM lists its like the darn thing is growing on freakin trees...
thats the problem, the fact that Wulfen is killy, is well expected, you would expect of a 3 meters high Genetically modified Super Werewolf to be a hard hitter, but was it really necessary to give them acces to stormshields???
No it was not, but hey Sm special snowflakes.
And our Termies are still stuck with their stinking 5++( if you don't play Tzeentch)
the_scotsman wrote: People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!" .
Harlequins have a ton of good attacks at high initiative, function pretty well out of the box. But people don't complain because they die like flies to any type of shooting.
DW knights for instance are durable, and hit hard in melee, but with fewer attacks and at lower initiative, so that's also fine.
Wulfen have the best of both world, plus their plethora of special rules. They even have a build-in insurance: if they die first in melee, then they get free attacks, just to be sure that they make their points back. Their only weakness is S8+ shooting, but not every army has that in their arsenal.
Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.
Shoot them you say? Easier said than done when you're locked in CC because Skyclaws and bikes moved twice and got off a T1 charge. Or you're trying desperately to chew down some TWC before they run you over like a lawn mower next turn. You shouldn't have to deploy your Demonkin like Tau to avoid becoming speed bumps because the Furries got the perfect CC unit that hands out super buffs like candy and can kill anything short of a Titan themselves in CC.
I'll happily play against riptide wing all day long rather than fast Furries with 2 units of Wulfen in the list.
Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.
This is why I think is really childishly designed. They gave the unit an axe that hits hard and costs significantly less than the TH/SS combination, and that strikes last unless you charge. So a melee unit can try to play well, maneuver correctly and pull a charge to counter these high strength weapons before they become too lethal.
But no. If you kill the model it will strike back anyway. Because reasons. Is a huge insult to other melee units, especially ones that pay for higher initiative, more than anything else. It does not push a good gameplay or strategy either for the Wulfen Player (I pay less the unit, but for I strenght I have to play smarter) or the opponent (for the reason listed).
the_scotsman wrote: People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!" .
Harlequins have a ton of good attacks at high initiative, function pretty well out of the box. But people don't complain because they die like flies to any type of shooting.
DW knights for instance are durable, and hit hard in melee, but with fewer attacks and at lower initiative, so that's also fine.
Wulfen have the best of both world, plus their plethora of special rules. They even have a build-in insurance: if they die first in melee, then they get free attacks, just to be sure that they make their points back. Their only weakness is S8+ shooting, but not every army has that in their arsenal.
No, their weakness is that they're crazy elite expensive units whose assault transport options are either crazy expensive, inefficient land raiders, or a crazy expensive plane that gets them in melee at MINIMUM turn 3, if not later.
They make their points back in melee....well, unless you charge them with a disposable, much cheaper unit like Ork boyz....or a psychically buffed deathstar with solid invuln save, like screamers, or khorne hounds. But, as I said before, it's really quite trivial to take them out with shooting before they get to you.
Unlike Riptides, Screamers, necron wraiths, thunderwolves, black knights, wraithknights, or any of the other actual competitive tournament worthy things in the game, wulfen can be fought with pretty much any weapon down to and including mass lasgun fire.
36 lasgun shots per wulfen, yep. not the most points efficient way to take them out, but compare that to how lasguns do against wraithknights or riptides.
Complaining that wulfen are hard to kill with your equally expensive specialist melee units is like claiming basilisks and battlecannons are OP when you always move your models around in B2B contact in circular formation.
the_scotsman wrote: 36 lasgun shots per wulfen, yep. not the most points efficient way to take them out, but compare that to how lasguns do against wraithknights or riptides.
Complaining that wulfen are hard to kill with your equally expensive specialist melee units is like claiming basilisks and battlecannons are OP when you always move your models around in B2B contact in circular formation.
Personally, anything I face that proves difficult to kill receives salvoes of Exorcist rockets to the face until they stop twitching.
Occasionally I stop bombarding the area only once DNA testing to identify what species the remains are is no longer viable.
Your mistake was to not shoot them off the table like you did later in the game. There really isn't a whole lot wrong with wulfin
There are a couple units out there like that, Wraithes, Wulfin, Harlequins, World Eaters Beserkers/Terminators, Khorne Dogs.
They all die the same way, overwhelming firepower. Where you have to be careful is the shenanigans that can be done with World Eaters and Khorne dogs now.....those are much nastier. (Terminators with a 48 inch assault range on turn 1 are not something to sneeze at, and everyone knows the cabalstar with KDK Khorne Dogs.)
gummyofallbears wrote: Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.
Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.
I'll agree with the second point, but they really aren't MCs...
The only thing they have in common with an MC is multiple wounds and AP2... But they only have two, and T4.
sfshilo wrote: There are a couple units out there like that, Wraithes, Wulfin, Harlequins, World Eaters Beserkers/Terminators, Khorne Dogs.
They all die the same way, overwhelming firepower.
A harlequin dies to 8 lasgun shots (8 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 and a third failed wounds, 1 dead harlequin). 54 for a wulfen (54 shots, 27 hits, 9 wounds, 3 failed saves, 2 failed FNP, 1 dead wulfen). A wraith is definitely more durable, 72 lasguns (72 shots, 36 hits, 6 wounds, 2 failed saves) as well as being better against S8, but they aren't S8-10 AP 2 or guaranteed to get their attacks off. I'm not familiar with the rules for world eaters/dogs so can't do those, but I assume they're around/inferior to wulfen level and again, don't have the sheer power of wulfen or a guaranteed chance to attack.
There are obviously a ton of variables, like wulfen's vulnerability to S8, but they often have shields eating some of those wounds. All but the wraiths will likely die to the wulfen, depending on how many hammers they have against the wraiths, and even then it's likely it'll either wipe the wraiths or mutually destroy.
Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).
Dantes_Baals wrote: Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).
Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?
Dantes_Baals wrote: Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).
Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?
Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).
Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?
Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.
I think that says more about power creep than about the dogs.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Khorne dogs aren't really that special. They are your basic attack unit that are beasts with a demon save. The only thing that sets them apart is scout when used in gorepack. Berserker so are just regular power armored marines that are WS5 and really really angry (probably due to their wonky and extremely old sculpts ).
Khorne dogs are pretty nice. 16 PPM for a 2 wound, T4 S4 WS5 model with 2 attacks base, Furious Charge, and Deny the Witch on a 4+? That's not really that special?
Compared to Wraiths and Wulfen not at all. I mean they're a nice unit and I love running then with my KDK, but they aren't even in the same league as the other 2. One is nigh impossible to kill and the other will obliterate anything they touch and buff all fast movers in a 12" bubble.
You've never actually read the Wulfen's curse rules.
Wulfen buff guide for fast units -
Blood/Sky/Swift Claws within 12'
TWC, Iron Priest ministar, Characters on mounts within 6'
Vehicles and Fen Wolf packs not at all.
On top of that if you spend the minimum 300 points on the Murderpack you bump your chance of getting the extra movement from 33.3% to 50%, otherwise your investment confers a heap of special rules that most of those units already carry.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.
Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.
My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).
--------
All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.
Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.
Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.
My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).
--------
All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.
Dark Eldar are one of the armies best suited for taking down the Wulfen though. Venomspam, which is the basis of most strong DEldar lists (barring Haemy Covens stuff) will shred Wulfen from across the board. The TWC are the big issue for us
Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.
Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.
My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).
--------
All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.
Dark Eldar are one of the armies best suited for taking down the Wulfen though. Venomspam, which is the basis of most strong DEldar lists (barring Haemy Covens stuff) will shred Wulfen from across the board. The TWC are the big issue for us
Not sure how legit it was but he took wulfen in drop pods (you can take them that way right? The TWC were actually easy to murder though for me. Poisoned cuts them down to size pretty quick. I think he got first turn though which didn't help.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.
What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.
What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.
We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.
Wulfen are crazy good at what they do. They may not be op, as the current meta clearly favors shooting, but they are so much more powerful than other c.c. elites troops that it screams bad design (and that's not even considering their speed and buffing attributes). I've run some simulation using my programme (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/707800.page) and they simply crush the competition once they enter c.c. It doesn't makes for a fun experience
Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.
This is why I think is really childishly designed. They gave the unit an axe that hits hard and costs significantly less than the TH/SS combination, and that strikes last unless you charge. So a melee unit can try to play well, maneuver correctly and pull a charge to counter these high strength weapons before they become too lethal.
But no. If you kill the model it will strike back anyway. Because reasons. Is a huge insult to other melee units, especially ones that pay for higher initiative, more than anything else. It does not push a good gameplay or strategy either for the Wulfen Player (I pay less the unit, but for I strenght I have to play smarter) or the opponent (for the reason listed).
Well, at least LRBTs look good in that context
Agreed, stupid rule which, imo, barely makes any sense. Now, at best, you'll get a tie using other c.c. units, if they charges, your gak ouf of luck. Still, my main beef with them is how undercosted their weapon options are. 12 pts for a pair of storm claw which gives +1 S ??? 20 pts for a thunder hammer and storm shield combo (when most units have to pay 25 pts for a power fist) ??? 8 pts for a really neat ice axe which basically kills anything if you get the charge (and they will most of the time considering their speed)?? Get the feth out of here
In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Runic wrote: In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.
What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.
We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.
Two things I should point out.
1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side
2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.
Runic wrote: In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.
What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.
We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.
Two things I should point out.
1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side
2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.
1. I'm looking at things from a once a month tournament player in a meta that changes quickly point of view. You are looking at things from a bitter Blood Angels point of view - You actually make Martel sound happy.
2. That build has been working since before the Wulfen dropped, ask any Space Wolf player who doesn't ally for Invisibility how to get TWC up the field and they'll answer Drop Pod Dreadnoughts in your opponent's face and burn away units of small arms fire, if anything it's centered around Thunderwolves and Dreadnoughts with Wulfen making the third unit.
Consistently curbstomping Riptide and Wraithknight spam, a grand total of two lists that have been solidly complained about for months with a list that's HARD COUNTERED simply by using more cheap units, the ones that Riptides and Wraithknights point at and delete, can only be good for the game, it sure has been in my area.
Runic wrote: In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.
GW try to hype up their weaknesses and yet negate them at the same time.
Only a single ccw - options for 2, 3 attacks base, rage. Huh.
Only a 4+ save - 2 wounds, FNP, option for Storm Shields.
No grenades - option for stormfrag assault launchers.
Expensive - 2 wounds, FNP and option for Stormshields. Really.
Footsloggers - can run and assault and have an option for a flying transport.
Oh, but Thunder Hammers make them strike at I1 - can strike back at initiative step if killed - can even do this if already attacked. They can basically pull off Thunder Hammer hits before I1.
Low BS - they don't use ranged weapons.
Like, really. Every weakness they have is ignored.
I've never heard GW try to hype weaknesses of any model.
Wulfen cost.
Storm Shields cost.
Assault Frag launchers cost.
Transport costs and negates the curse for two turns.
Wulfen are brutal but you need to pay points through the nose to make them absolutely nuts by which time you don't have enough points left for anything to benefit from the Wulfen's curse.
Close Combat weapon is irrelevant on almost all levels because all weapon upgrades the Wulfen take involve two hands.
TH/SS - Storm Shield makes model unable to claim +1 for 2 CC weapons
Great Frost Axe - two handed, can never claim +1 for 2 CC weapons.
Pair of Wolf Claws - Claims +1 for 2 CC weapons by being a pair.
The CC weapons enable initiative abuse with the hammer or axe.
You done need transports for them because they are fast enough to get there on their own. For 25 points more than a squad of Cataphractii you get a unit that confers considerable buffs and is all but guaranteed to annihilate anything it touches.
What you either don't understand or are purposefully leaving out is that the opposing player will be busy shooting at the wolfstar, grey hunters TWC and drop dreads. Your opponent will be too busy dealing with threats already in his face/dealing damage to focus down something that probably won't around to wrecking house until turn 2. Target saturation is their insurance. There is a reason one of our local SW players has won 5 of the last 6 tournaments.
We don't take skill into account?
Wulfen move six inches, run between one and six inches then charge, that's hardly blistering speed, there were units that could move twelve inches then run and charge before the Wulfen arrived on the scene.
I've run a very similar strategy since April, my better opponents adapted to it within the month - two didn't even change their lists, just re-arranged their shooting priority, only the truly stubbourn scrubs are still moaning about them.
Wulfen have done wonderful things at my FLGS. MSUs are an absolute nightmare to a Space Wolves list meaning the IG players are laughing their heads off plus Tau and Eldar players are being forced to drop multiple Broadsides and Wraithknights for multiple sacrificial units to ruin the Wolves' advance because any melee unit is easily thwarted if it is forced to charge through units that cost less than it does.
Two things I should point out.
1. You are still looking at things in a vacuum from the Wulfen players side
2. A build centered around a single unit changed your whole fething meta. I haven't the slightest idea why you think crap like this is good for the game.
1. I dropped BA over a year ago, so congrats on getting your moot point across.
2. So to counter the worst of the cheddar, bring ghudda to the table. Still not seeing how this is good for the game. If they can tank and subsequently run over the cheesiest lists in the game they will have a much easier time doing that to all of the other armies. Wulfen were awesome back in the EoT. 13th coy was probably one of the coolest armies I've ever played. However now it's just a drum of fuel on the fire. Not only are the models hideous, but all of their "weaknesses " are counterbalanced by some over the top ability or USR on top of discounted wargear and being heinously underpointed. I mean I guess the only positive I can see is A CC army is viable in competitive meta again.
Enjoy your Frost Claws, and T1 charges chief, because I really don't see this discussion going anywhere positive. Im out.
Wulfen are strong but kinda necessary if you want to have a close combat force instead of yet another gun line, I hated what sixth forced me to do to make wolves work I was completely locked out of my preferred play style.
Being able to take the fight to my enemies instead of sitting back felt great.
But yeah I can see how they irritate some people but it's not as bad as tau and eldar.
Runic wrote: In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.
The context is the game as a whole. If the context isn't the game as a whole, then the argument is pointless. I can claim a Tactical Marine is OP in the context of a Tactical Marine vs. a Guardsman.
Now that we've estabilished the fact the context is the game as a whole, the Wulfen are fine. Compared to things like a decked out wolfstar, the most competitive Tau and Eldar lists and the like.
In Warhammer 40,0000 the game, the unit Wulfen are not overpowered, and not even remotely the strongest unit.
I'll await factual data that proves the opposite, such as Wulfen heavy lists consistently winning large tournaments on a continous basis. The data for the above mentioned, actually competitive tournament lists that have dominated vaurious events you can find easily.
Wulfren aren't that bad to me bit that could he due to most of my new army having invuns
Martel please for the love of tzeench stop crying about blood angels. The blowd angel codex can at least make some good fluffy lists some codexes ie nids and Orks dont even have that. What are you going to claim next that SoB and Thousand sons are better than BA
Wulfen are a bit OP but they also come across as being incredibly OP because of how underpowered most footslogging dedicated melee units are. Lots of attacks, high strength with the AP to cut through saves, and the ability to guarantee they do damage (key note here) in melee when they die before they swing. They also have an aura makes other units better which generally means it boosts their movement. Their weakness is that they are foot sloggers but its partly offset by having run and charge so their assault threat range is somewhere between foot sloggers and "mounted" units. They also have fairly lackluster saves, toughness, and are multi wound so volume of fire can chew them up while high strength shots can instant kill them (ignoring the 2nd wound and FNP). Zero real range threat means they are almost always acted upon before they can do any damage which makes them potentially only function to buff nearby units movement and soak shooting (with their middle of the road saves/durability that isn't their ideal role).
Compare them to other similar dedicated melee units like Nobz and they are OP as gak but its very easy to argue that Nobz are some of the most underpowered units in the game (and even their own codex dumps on Nobz due to Meganobz being superior in almost every way). Really though Wulfen are closer to what dedicated footslogging melee units should be than the antiquated units like Terminators and Nobz with their overpriced melee weapons and defensive stats that haven't aged well in the era of mobile, long range, high strength, high RoF, and relatively cheap shooting. Wulfen bring A LOT of damage in melee and have a decent mix of mobility, utility, and durability for their points to justify running them up the field or tossing them out there with drop pods/flyer transports. Their weakness happens to be what the meta is which is LOTS OF DAKKA so any army that can spam bullets can mow them down fairly cost effectively as well as forcing them to waste time chopping through garbage MSU or dinky transports to buy time to continue to murder them with shooting.
I just played against space wolvex using a lucufer armored task force. Surprisingly i was able to win because fast tanks are very effective vs the specific army i was facing.
Good thing you got str 8+ guns on dark angel units.
Yeah good thing Guard and some other armies have that.
My poor dark eldar though mostly have str 7 max outside of blasters, dark lances and a void lance and one void mine (bomb) if you can hit with it and provided you take that over-costed flyer (void raven). Sadly most dark eldar Instant Death is in melee meaning whatever you send to murder those things only gets one turn before it gets murdered itself. Just gotta pray you spam lance and perhaps poisoned (even if poisoned won't do enough).
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All that said thunderwolves aren't too hard to kill but can move rather fast. I still need to get better and it's a rather shame that dark eldar are weaker in power level. I suppose it could be worse. I could be facing a dumber army like tau which can negate most of what i do and just shoot me off the table.
Good thing my Thousand Sons have S8 AP 3 Missile launchers that have half the range, no frag option, and cannot fire them the same turn they fire their guns, for the same price. Yeah, we have no other S8 options in WoM unless you get lucky and roll on your psyker charts.
Runic wrote: In a truly competitive (or should I say broken) enviroment Wulfen are mediocre-okay at best. Hardly overpowered or even in the high tier of things you see in tourneys.
It sounds like your army was very casual, add in the mistakes you listed and there you go. Wulfen are fine.
Wulfen ate fine because Tau'nar isn't a very convincing argument man.
The context is the game as a whole. If the context isn't the game as a whole, then the argument is pointless. I can claim a Tactical Marine is OP in the context of a Tactical Marine vs. a Guardsman.
Now that we've estabilished the fact the context is the game as a whole, the Wulfen are fine. Compared to things like a decked out wolfstar, the most competitive Tau and Eldar lists and the like.
In Warhammer 40,0000 the game, the unit Wulfen are not overpowered, and not even remotely the strongest unit.
I'll await factual data that proves the opposite, such as Wulfen heavy lists consistently winning large tournaments on a continous basis. The data for the above mentioned, actually competitive tournament lists that have dominated vaurious events you can find easily.
But in a complete vacuum a guardsman isn't inferior to a tac marine. When you're comparing two units independent of other units in the game you still need to keep price point in consideration. Equal points of tacs vs equal points of guardsmen will find a relatively even matchup, although it'll lean more towards guard if there's good cover. Keeping in mind that tacs and guardsmen fill the same role of "basic infantry", it's only right that while they have their strengths and weaknesses they should balance out with all of the basic infantry. Sure, some faction's basic infantry is better at certain things (tau having better range, necrons being able to hurt tanks, eldar having bladestorm, guard having more special weapons, tacs having the best armor and statline, nids and orks huge numbers) but all in all none of them outright beats the others at everything. If, for the same price, I had basic infantry that would hands down beat everyone else's troops no matter how I went about taking them on, one of them would be OP, yes? Even if my basic infantry are the least powerful thing in my codex, the unit least likely to outright win me games, is it not still overpowered if it in every way outdoes the same battlefield role of every other faction's basic infantry?
Turn now to wulfen, which I'll classify as "foot melee specialists": they're foot infantry with the sole goal of killing things in close combat. Every codex has some form or another of this, which are the units you should compare them to. Assault terminators, DW knights, genestealers, harlequins, howling banshees, any variety of melee ork from boyz up to meganobz, berserkers, sicarians, there are plenty of them out there. Take an equal value of wulfen (I assume running 2 TH/SS and 3 axes) and throw them against any of these units and you'll find that either A)wulfen will outright beat them before they swing if the wulfen charge or B)wulfen will die to them, but always wipe the squad they're up against. All foot melee units have a different thing they're good at; they're typically either well protected, high initiative, or in numbers so that they can get off their attacks. Wulfen are well protected (2 wounds, 3++, and FNP) AND high initiative. The ones that do strike at a high initiative either have limited (DW smite, kisses, etc.) or randomized (rending) number of AP2 attacks, or they're only AP3. Models that always strike at AP2 are I1, so often die before they get to swing. Wulfen always strike at AP2, even at I5, and if they are I1 they don't have to worry because they still get to swing.
You'll notice first that yes, pretty much everything I named is considered bad in the current meta. Foot melee specialists are not in high demand, as 7th is a game of shooting. Wulfen are not the scariest thing in the dex. TWC and wolfstars are a pain. But that does not negate the fact that wulfen are the absolute best at what they do, that in a casual meta (we have a person that plays orks) they're completely unbalanced against other melee specialists. Perhaps wulfen are not "overall OP", but if you're not running net lists full of scatbikes and wraithknights and invisible deathstars and free stuff formations then yes, wulfen are much more powerful than they should be.
Not saying we should make wulfen weaker, just that we should give all the other foot melee stronger rules to keep up with the current meta.
kingbobbito wrote: in a casual meta (we have a person that plays orks) they're completely unbalanced against other melee specialists..
And this is the whole point. A casual "meta" is basically the game being played in an enviroment where a part of what it "offers" for players to use, is not used. What is OP varies in these limited contexts. Somewhere people could play a meta inwhich Devastators with Lascannons are OP. Somewhere else the Wulfen are considered OP because they maimed someones Chaos Mutilators to bits.
Hence one needs to look at the game as a whole, if they want to state something is OP. That is a blanket statement.
If one wants to state something is OP in a casual meta, then state it so.
When it comes to the whole games content and what you can build, Wulfen are not even remotely overpowered. I haven't seen a Wulfen heavy (a list that relies on Wulfen) even in the top 10 in bigger tournaments. If such lists place in the mid tier of tables, then that's all you really need to go with.
But that's all I got to say about it really, if someone wants to believe they're broken then well... I guess we'll have to wait until they face an electrodisplacing invisible wolfstar, Skatach Wraithknights or some Riptidewings accompanied with double Stormsurges and other fun stuff. There is a scale to the power of things in the game, and on that scale Wulfen are far from the top.
The main problem about them is that technically there is no codex "Space Wolves", but codex "Wulfens and Thunderwolf mounts" for they are the only units we have in current state of edition. Oh, almost forgot about 40+ small wolves with DA guy, but this will not be the pure SW army.
So the SW army looks incredibly stupid, lots of fluffy paws and not a single power boot touches the table :(
Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.
Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.
Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system
Question: in which book can I find this formation?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I consider Wulfen for my Eldar army.
While Eldar has decent shooting, the cc options are rather weak. Wulfen could be the answer, they are fast and hard hitting.
Not fast at all, regular 6 inch infantry movement, but able to charge after the run, so technically 3d6 on charge.
You can take their formation, just 2+ wulfen units with no tax, hail multi detachment system
Question: in which book can I find this formation?
Technically, you don't need a Space Wolves codex. The Curse of the Wulfen book (The book with the rules, at least,) has all the rules you need if you only want to run Wulfen. You'll either need at least 10 Wulfen in order to run them in a formation, or else you'll need to run Unbound, but you can do it.
Wulfen probelm is not that they hit Hard, i would expect that from 3m tall genetically modified Werewolves.
Its that they can take Shields, com on! was it really necessary to give 3++ save to those to tank all the high Str/AP shots you can throw at them?, no, it was not.
Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...
Slayer le boucher wrote: Wulfen probelm is not that they hit Hard, i would expect that from 3m tall genetically modified Werewolves.
Its that they can take Shields, com on! was it really necessary to give 3++ save to those to tank all the high Str/AP shots you can throw at them?, no, it was not.
Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...
No matter how scary a melee unit's melee abilities are they need to get into melee before any of that becomes relevant and while it is hard to stop Space Wolves getting into melee it's not hard to stop them getting into the melee they want - the scariest melee unit in the game can have it's path blocked by a single well placed model, 150 points minimum squad completely blocked by 5 points.
Speaking of relevance Invulnerable saves are pretty much the only relevant save left, Ignores Cover and AP2 are so easy to not just get but spam at range that cover and armour saves simply don't matter anymore.
Lots of old tech shields hanging in the armoury of a chapter that doesn't have anywhere close to as many members as it was set up to equip, nor any successor chapters to share with sounds like it sums up the Space Wolves' armoury pretty good.
Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...
Base str is 5, hammer x2 - S10 init1, axe +2 - S7 init1(init5 on charge), claws +1 - S6 init5.
Have no idea where do you get this profile.
Great Frost Axe + Furious Charge.
Great Frost Axe (Wulfen only) are +3 to strength making them S8 +1 for Furious Charge for S9 and on the charge they hit at I5 then drop back to I1.
To get Furious Charge on the Wulfen you have to take two companies in the Wolf Claw Strike Force detachment or an allied IC who can confer it to them.
Specially not when they can hit at Str9 Ap2 Init 5...
Base str is 5, hammer x2 - S10 init1, axe +2 - S7 init1(init5 on charge), claws +1 - S6 init5.
Have no idea where do you get this profile.
Great Frost Axe + Furious Charge.
Great Frost Axe (Wulfen only) are +3 to strength making them S8 +1 for Furious Charge for S9 and on the charge they hit at I5 then drop back to I1.
To get Furious Charge on the Wulfen you have to take two companies in the Wolf Claw Strike Force detachment or an allied IC who can confer it to them.
Axes are +3, yeah. My bad. Get used to regular +2 str frost axe.
Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
Wraithknights not pulling their weight?
Too precious.
A Wraithknight should be able to pick its fight.
E.g., in combined Eldar/GK army I'd shield it by two Dreadknights.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
They are not fast at all. Thats why the thunderwolves deathstar is still the king of the board. There are just no effective ways to deliver wulfens in battle. Either droppods or just 6 move, 1d6 run
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
They are not fast at all. Thats why the thunderwolves deathstar is still the king of the board. There are just no effective ways to deliver wulfens in battle. Either droppods or just 6 move, 1d6 run
In a combined force with Eldar, it is possible to shield them say with skimmers.
Or they could run on a (refused) flank. I'm optimistic here.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, its one of the hardest hitting unit in the game. Fast and deadly.
I'm looking forward to integrate them in my Eldar army as it has no real cc specialists these days.
Wraithknights not pulling their weight?
Too precious.
A Wraithknight should be able to pick its fight.
E.g., in combined Eldar/GK army I'd shield it by two Dreadknights.
Much as I refuse to play allies I'm not going to stop anyone else doing it.
*Champions of Fenris Detachment
1× HQ - Rune Priest Mlv2 Sanctic Daemonology, roll for Hammerhands or Sanctuary 80pts.
2× Elites
- Wulfen 150 points per unit
- Servitor 10 points per unit
Alternatively
Formation Detachment
- Wulfen Murderpack 300 points per formation.
Or just take ally detach with TW cavalry and lord/battle leader (and two cheap servitors), they are much faster, have same durability (even higher with lord) and strike just a bit weaker.
Silver144 wrote: Or just take ally detach with TW cavalry and lord/battle leader (and two cheap servitors), they are much faster, have same durability (even higher with lord) and strike just a bit weaker.
Indeed, this is a viable alternative.
The enemy will pour all its fire into the Wolves leaving my Eldar save, dry and aiming for his throat.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
Indeed, the rest is not bad but not efficient enough and too pricey.
However, as allies they are ideal as they can complement an army really well.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Bike and Jump Pack, both are regarded as 'Mounts' by the rules...although I'm pretty sure the Jump Pack is mounted to the Priest.
Dakka Wolf wrote: And that's the story of the Space Wolves. The most desirable allies in the game but lacking the pieces to be at the top by their lonesome.
Thats soooo true. Just 2.5 playeble units in game (0.5 for fenrissian wolves as they need formation and ally for 4++) in the whole codex.
I'd round that up to an honest three. 0.5 for a mlv2 Rune Priest with a mount - roll in the Divination charts and pray for Forewarning and Misfortune.
Isn't there is only bike option for rune priest? TW mounts are only for lord, WGBL and techmarine.
Bike and Jump Pack, both are regarded as 'Mounts' by the rules...although I'm pretty sure the Jump Pack is mounted to the Priest.
Ah, thats how you spell it, ok.
However, there is little use in single psyker this edition, he will struggle to find needed spell and probably will be denied easily. There are much more reason to take librconclave.
But I take ml1 guy with 60pts base and axe time to time just for the sake of force. Underpowered pick, but watch the face of insta killed riptide is priceless.
Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, in practically every case, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Initiative, FNP (and getting no FNP vs ID), Schred, Insta Death (and pretty much every BRB rules) were taken into account.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus. What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
I did say earlier that considering 7ed is a shooting meta, Wulfen may not be op in the grand scheme of things. Still, I don't see how they can't be considered a problem when they are so much better than their competitors from other codex (and I doubt GW will boost significantly these units in future release).
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Heh yeah and our transports love to explode too (which isn't fun with an army composed of low armor saves and low toughness). Nice to have 5+ armor on reavers and most everything (to think 4+ 6++ on scourge is above average and 3+ on incubi and coven MC's is the most outside of shadow field archon's which love to die for high, high prices). All non-coven units are toughness 3 (excepting a couple things). All of our vehicles outside of flyers are open topped and tend to explode when pen'd. Our flyers also don't do enough. Oh and our vehicle armor is 10 all around on everything except the great ravager which gets 11 in front and side and 10 in back and if you jink it shoots snap shots on everything and tends to under-perform even when it can shoot.
Nobody said they weren't the top of their class, they very much are - but their class is a laughing stock to the rest of the campus.
What your equation represents is the equivalent of a 20 year old in the UFC locker room bragging about a non-contact tournament he just won.
It depends how effective you can utilize them in a game.
This unit can be game breaking and this is what I'm considering in an allied force.
Allied detachments can make just about anything impressive - except 'Nids. The whole eating anything including their allies makes it hard to bond over a bro-fist.
Mr. CyberPunk wrote: Let's see some stats vs c.c. elite units from others codex. I didn't take the death frenzy rule into account as I didn't included it in my programme :
Wulfen with Great Axe vs MaNz with 2*KillSaws 10 Wulfen for 380 pts vs 8 MaZ for 400 pts
No charges : Manz will do on average 13.3 wound, Wulfens will do 12,5 wound. But if we consider the cost (i.e, each 2 wounds of Manz killed equal 50 pts while each 2 wound of Wulfen killed = 38 pts), Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 1.65 vs 1.27 for the Manz
If Manz Charged : Manz will do on average 16,7 wound, Wulfens will do the same. Wulfen will then have an average of points killed by points spent of 2.2 vs 1.58 for the Manz. Interestingly, Manz fare worse when they are charging.
If Wulfen Charged : Lol, Wulfen will do 20.8 wound on average, Manz, basically 0 (4.99256E-05 to be exact)
Wulfen with T. Hammer and Shield vs Lych Guard H.Sword and D. Shield 6 Wulfens for 300 pts vs 10 Lych Guards for 300 pts
No charges : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 1.9 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.19 vs 0.12 for the L.G. (remeber that wulfen have 2 wounds but L.G. only 1)
If Guards Charged : Guards will do on average 2.2 wound, Wulfens will do 2.4 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.24 vs 0.19 for the L.G.
If Wulfen Charged : Guards will do on average 1.5 wound, Wulfens will do 3.2 wound. Wulfen have an average of points killed by points spent of 0.32 vs 0.12 for the L.G.
Wulfen with 2*Ice Claws vs Chaos Terminator with mark of Khorne and 2*lighting claws 5 Wulfens for 210 pts vs 5 Termies for 205 pts. This is bad, practically every time, the Termies will be wiped off before they have the chance to strike back
No charges : Termies will do on average 0.2 wound, Wulfens will do 6.5 wound.
If Termies Charged : Termies will do on average 0.1 wound, Wulfens will do 8.1 wound. Once again this unit is worse off when charging
If Wulfen Charged : Termies will do on average0.02 wound, Wulfens will do 9.7 wound.
Sure, it's only taken into a vacuum, and not even considering formations or others shenanigans. But as we can see, Wulfen are consistently on top, even without death frenzy.
We're not even taking FnP, Init. or other things into consideration (or are you?). I mean don't wulfen attack at initiative? I have incubi that have str 4 ap 2 attacks and strike at initiative 5. For dark eldar we consider that decent. I don't think Space Wolves ever would.
Except that is impressive when compared to a solid 90% of our codex.
We have a grand total of three units that can do that.
Wulfen with Great Frost Axes can do it - double the strength but only on the charge, then it goes back to Initiative 1.
HQ Wolf Lord with a unique relic.
HQ Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same unique relic.
Do you get grenades? Most dedicated combat units worth their salt in melee in the dark eldar codex don't. Yes that includes incubi, reavers and grotesques. If we attack into cover we're at initiative 1. So much for the much lauded high initiative of dark eldar.
Pretty sure you make up for it with Skimmers that you can assault out of.
As yes, those danged assault skimmers that I regularly shoot down with bolt pistols.
That's another cute bit about wulfen. They don't need grenades because they'll always get to attack, but they can take them.
Thought you said you were done here.
Anyway.
Don't be knocking bolt pistols, s4 ap5 kills units of Thunderwolves and Wulfen more often than Lascanons, Scatter Lasers, D-weapons or Strength 10 ap1 blasts do.
You mentioned bringing cheese to deal with cheese, you just got the type of cheese wrong. Wulfen are swiss cheese, they're full of holes like the point that all you gotta do to make them a waste of points is position your less expensive units to stop them getting at your more expensive units.
They aren't jump and their grenades, if you purchase them, fire 1-3 bolt pistol shots at bolt pistol range, that's the kind of firepower that messes a unit up before you charge it, not the kind of firepower that clears a path. A unit of Wulfen can and will be stopped by a Servitor.
I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
Dantes_Baals wrote: You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc)
No, they don't Nobody takes this crappy semimarine analogs we have in our codex outside the nonserious "fun" games, where the balance is not a thing anyway. SW are just Imperial furry deathstar superfriends, not a standalone army
But you are totally right about the wulfens, they are way to stupidly broken in melee. Buff aura and frenzy post-death strikes should be deleted, and their base and wargear prices should be higher. But, to be honest, they have a huge drawback - lack of mobility. You average will see them in combat at 3-rd or 4-th turn.
Dantes_Baals wrote: I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
Mathhammer terms.
Wulfen that people are afraid of are usually packing a full set of TH/SS and grenades
After hitting a Bolt wounds the toughness 4 wulfen on a 4 for a grand total of 33.4% wound ratio and has a 66%(rounding down) chance of being scrubbed off by the shields, then a 34%(rounding up) chance of being scrubbed off by FNP.
The S10 ap2 blast - Vindicator - wounds on a 2 for an 84% chance of wounding.
Gets scrubbed off by the same 66% chance with the shield, gets no FNP and suffers insta-death making the two wounds irrelevant, seems entirely in favour of the blast.
Except every turn that Vindicator can throw down a maximum of five wounds into that squad of Wulfen, five wounds with a 66% chance of being irrelevant.
For the a smaller price a normal Marine player can grab two squads of Scouts, which ironically enough have bolt guns.
Once they get in range of the Vindicator's gun the Wulfen are going to get at it and total it in 2-3 turns, facing down 10-15 wounds at a maximum assuming I mass my Wulfen together nice and tight like an idiot and your roll doesn't scatter. My Wulfen are going to take their 66% save against every successful wound and at best that Vindicator will take two in the first attempt, rounding up to two in the second and a less than 50% chance of one in the third, that Wulfen will destroy the Vindicator and keep moving.
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
Sure you can add in everything that can back the Wulfen up but that would mean I'm packing variety rather than spamming anything - further, any other player has the same opportunity to back their MSU up, cameo cloaks and or cover that makes things difficult for Long Fangs who have no access to ignores cover, spreading their units to force Ragnar's pods to land in no man's land rather than in Linebreaker territory like they're supposed to and actually impeding the Wulfen and TWCs advance to boot, long range of your own to shoot the Sky Claws out of the sky then fire on whatever is left of the TWC and Wulfen still making their way up the table.
Dantes_Baals wrote: I said I was done with the argument... and few pages back. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic at the beginning of the post, but if you aren't I'd LOVE to see an realistic example followed by math hammer proving that.
In any case you keep on about MSUMSUMSU! Okay, the wulfen eat a small unit, sweeping advance lose one maybe two the next turn, rinse repeat. The buffs have already been handed out, and if the SW players charges a small unit that leaves the wulfen in the opponents kill box, that's entirely on the furry players part. MSU works for maelstrom but will cost you the game in eternal war (especially against space puppies ). You seem to be forgetting that the SW player has other units on the board to help deal with MSU (long fangs, Blackmanes pods full of grey hunters, sky claws, IKs etc) Not to mention there MIGHT be 10 units in the game that can delete a squad of wulfen at minimum unit size.
Also when I mentioned grenades, I wasn't referencing the damage they do. I was referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether Wulfen swing at I1 or not (death frenzy)
Mathhammer terms.
Wulfen that people are afraid of are usually packing a full set of TH/SS and grenades
After hitting a Bolt wounds the toughness 4 wulfen on a 4 for a grand total of 33.4% wound ratio and has a 66%(rounding down) chance of being scrubbed off by the shields, then a 34%(rounding up) chance of being scrubbed off by FNP.
The S10 ap2 blast - Vindicator - wounds on a 2 for an 84% chance of wounding.
Gets scrubbed off by the same 66% chance with the shield, gets no FNP and suffers insta-death making the two wounds irrelevant, seems entirely in favour of the blast.
Except every turn that Vindicator can throw down a maximum of five wounds into that squad of Wulfen, five wounds with a 66% chance of being irrelevant.
For the a smaller price a normal Marine player can grab two squads of Scouts, which ironically enough have bolt guns.
Once they get in range of the Vindicator's gun the Wulfen are going to get at it and total it in 2-3 turns, facing down 10-15 wounds at a maximum assuming I mass my Wulfen together nice and tight like an idiot and your roll doesn't scatter. My Wulfen are going to take their 66% save against every successful wound and at best that Vindicator will take two in the first attempt, rounding up to two in the second and a less than 50% chance of one in the third, that Wulfen will destroy the Vindicator and keep moving.
The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
Sure you can add in everything that can back the Wulfen up but that would mean I'm packing variety rather than spamming anything - further, any other player has the same opportunity to back their MSU up, cameo cloaks and or cover that makes things difficult for Long Fangs who have no access to ignores cover, spreading their units to force Ragnar's pods to land in no man's land rather than in Linebreaker territory like they're supposed to and actually impeding the Wulfen and TWCs advance to boot, long range of your own to shoot the Sky Claws out of the sky then fire on whatever is left of the TWC and Wulfen still making their way up the table.
The only str 8 or higher blast dark eldar have are the void mines (and technically the dark scythes with str 8 ap 2 small blast but it is small blast) from the void raven which isn't so hot and you only get one per void raven. Pray it doesn't scatter off the mark.
Normally we make up with it with instant death melee but i think you already know where i'm gonna go with that one ;P. Given the storm shields and only one turn of instant death melee with no grenades i think we know how well that ends.
At least when i fight space wolves i feel like i have a chance though rather than the rofl stomp i get as dark eldar playing against tau with that riptide, double stormsurge, double ghostkeel, multiple stealth suits and shadowsun from a player that sometimes cheats no less.
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Wulfen are anything but fragile and yeah it's different when the enemy has drop pods of em. Now if you wanted to say imperial guard can wipe the board with em you may have a point (str 8 ap 3 ordnance and better up the butt) but i'm not sure how many leman russ tanks people even take anymore or of what variants. I could swear there seems to be people complaining about the normal russ these days and they used to be a staple of guard armies. I mean you could run infantry but i dunno if that was a good idea.
Martel732 wrote: The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.
Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.
I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.
Martel732 wrote: The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.
Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.
I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.
2 wounds and FNP means nothing when your T4. Str8+ shooting is just too spammable this edition and invul is the only way to let this transportless 6' infantry guys run across the board. But their price should be higher though, there is no doubt.
Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.
Martel732 wrote: Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.
Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields
Martel732 wrote: Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.
Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields
Fine with me. BA aren't on that list. You can't fall when you're in the cellar. SW make my entire codex pointless with two units. Doesn't get much worse than that.
Martel732 wrote: Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.
Sure thing! Right after regular marines will lose their gravs, free sarges and transports; necrons their RP; tau their markerlights; dark angels their rerollable jinx; deamons their invisible and rerollable 2++ spam; eldar will completly be rewritten and mono imperial knights will become a joke, we will happily give our storm shields
Fine with me. BA aren't on that list. You can't fall when you're in the cellar. SW make my entire codex pointless with two units. Doesn't get much worse than that.
Agree with you here, BA really need some love. Or they may become a "red marines" till the 8-th ed will drop
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.
Do not ask GW for snowflake love, or you will get blood blood blood curse vampire bat blood blood type of background with new monstrous half-vampire bat marines in dancer poses, which become mandatory choice and will replace all other units in your codex.
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.
I'm going off topic a bit here but curiosity is getting the better of me and I don't have a BA codex handy.
What have the Blood Angels got to represent their Red Thirst and Black Rage?
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
Problem is, I can't image what "love" they'd give BA to fix the dilemma. There is no way around the Wulfen strike back thing.
I'm going off topic a bit here but curiosity is getting the better of me and I don't have a BA codex handy.
What have the Blood Angels got to represent their Red Thirst and Black Rage?
I don't have the models to field that, and I'm not buying them. I'd have to get like six more grav cannons alone. Feth that. And I hate the idea of turning marines into Orks anyway, which is what battle company does. As it stands, BA can't live up to a single victory from their fluff, for those who care about that stuff. That makes BA double failures compared to space woofs.
master of ordinance wrote: Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.
Not exactly. It's not universal, or the most recent codex would always be the best. There is no rhyme or reason to what GW makes overpowered.
Inconsistency encourages people to hope their new codex will be the next subject of complaints about overpowered gak.
Except Eldar...for some reason their hopes are always fulfilled.
master of ordinance wrote: Wulfen are just another symptom of the rapidly growing power creep/mary sue bloat that is 40K 6th/7th edition.
Not exactly. It's not universal, or the most recent codex would always be the best. There is no rhyme or reason to what GW makes overpowered.
Inconsistency encourages people to hope their new codex will be the next subject of complaints about overpowered gak.
Except Eldar...for some reason their hopes are always fulfilled.
Because Eldar are Elves and Elves are always better because. Apart from Dark Eldar of course because they are bad elves.
Dakka Wolf wrote: The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
What is this math you're doing? I'm genuinely lost. When you're saying "ten wounds at 24 inches" you mean 10 shots right? 50 potential wounds actually means 50 shots fired, yes?
Wulfen start 24" away, you get first turn, you fire 10 hit 6.67 wound 3.33 with 1.11 failed saves and 0.74 failed FNP.
Wulfen move 6" run whatever, they're maybe 15" away. So walk forward rapid fire 12" away, 20 shots equals 1.48 failed FNP equals 1 dead wulfen. Bottom of turn two wulfen charge one of the units, 10 overwatch shots makes 0.18 failed FNP, combat is another 0.27 wounds, squad gets wiped.
Second rapid fire, 10 shots with the remaining squad, another 0.74, another 0.18 from overwatch, another 0.27 from combat before your second squad is dead.
Adding up the total of the two squads, that's 3.86 wounds, or about two dead wulfen, out of a squad of 5. They held them back until turn 4 instead of turn 3, but you've still got 3 wulfen in your deployment zone.
I'm really not sure what you were trying to say, that 50 shots has the potential of killing 10 wulfen. A lasgun has the chance to kill a wulfen in a single turn, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm not saying I wouldn't try to screen with a cheap unit, or that you shouldn't try shooting them with bolters, but trying to say that bolters are the most efficient way to kill them? That's just a blatant lie.
A vindicator, on the other hand, only needs to score 6 hits to kill that many, and a plate dropped dead center on a squad has about a 70% chance of hitting within 3" of the target. Perhaps combine the vindicator AND the scouts and you'd have a chance.
Martel732 wrote: Either or. Lose the storm shield or pay more for it. I don't care which. It's just like scatterbikes and Wrathknights and everything else. Pay more points or lose efficacy.
Some jealousy from a BA player?
There have always been units and models in the game who are more effective than others.
Play Eldar? Buy at least 9 to 12 Jetbikers and a Wraithknight for about 200 Euro. And then you are not even half way for a 2000 pt army.
Martel732 wrote: The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.
Death frenzy is what gets me. They already hit like a freight train. Do they really need to do it twice?
Lose Death Frenzy, charge them normal cost for war gear and that justifies 30 a pop while still being one of the best CC units in the game and a auto-include for Furry players. They'd still get to "curse" nearby units, they'd still wreck just about anything in combat. They just wouldn't be so ridiculous as to wipe out half a GK paladin squad at I5 and the other 5 when they die.
Martel732 wrote: The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.
Death frenzy is what gets me. They already hit like a freight train. Do they really need to do it twice?
Lose Death Frenzy, charge them normal cost for war gear and that justifies 30 a pop while still being one of the best CC units in the game and a auto-include for Furry players. They'd still get to "curse" nearby units, they'd still wreck just about anything in combat. They just wouldn't be so ridiculous as to wipe out half a GK paladin squad at I5 and the other 5 when they die.
Calling SW players a furry is dangerously close to insult
I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.
No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.
Martel732 wrote: Even the init 5 on the charge is useless vs Wulfen b/c they fight back anyway :(
They are not supposed to be beaten in melee, they must be shooted. And their lack of mobility gives you at least 3 turns to do that. BA as underpowered melee oriented army will have a problem here, but other codices have their ways to kill some t4 guys on foot.
3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).
Dantes_Baals wrote: I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.
No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.
Well, this is not the players fault.
To be honest I hate my army too for what they have become since the 5th edition drop (at the 5-th edition this was not SO bad though, at least cavalry was optional unit and army work generally fine without it). If 8-th will not fix it, I'll probably start count my army as "puppy blue" X-foundation viking marines
Martel732 wrote: The only problem I have with Wulfen REALLY is the stormshields.
Without invul save and accessible delivery to melee they will be useless, just to fragile to survive a round, not to mention the two.
I disagree. They'd still have two wounds and FNP. They should lose to everything else that marine melee loses to. But they are special snowflakes and get cheap stormshields. Get real. Maybe for 35 pts a model the stormshields would be fair. They win every assault even if they lose. Their defenses should be expensive.
2 wounds and FNP means nothing when your T4. Str8+ shooting is just too spammable this edition and invul is the only way to let this transportless 6' infantry guys run across the board. But their price should be higher though, there is no doubt.
Allied other assault units have to deal with that same shooting... without 10 point stormshields guaranteed to win them any Combat they get to.
3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).
No, running on foot. Pay 250pts for LR? Ha-ha, no way. I'll buy another unit of full equipped cavalry for that points and there still will be some points left. My wulfens are running on foot and 3-rd turns is the closest when they manage to reach someone.
Dantes_Baals wrote: I take offense to that. I see my friends at the "petting zoo" the second Tuesday of every month. They call me Feisty Frank and I go as a fox as its my spirit animal. Ive been with everybody in herd except for Babs the baboon (she's always playing hard to get). I love me some Furries.
No seriously, I refer to the Space Wolves themselves as Furries. Not the players given the wolf Lords riding wolves wearing wolf pelts and wolf tooth necklaces, accompanied by packs of fenresian wolves in a squad of more space wolves riding space wolves that.... I think I've gone cross-eyed. I just generally don't like the army because it not only jumped the shark, it did a 1060° ollie back flip over the shark and for such an over the top, bordering ridiculous dex (IMO) to be THE CC army gets a bit under my skin.
Well, this is not the players fault.
To be honest I hate my army too for what they have become since the 5th edition drop (at the 5-th edition this was not SO bad though, at least cavalry was optional unit and army work generally fine without it). If 8-th will not fix it, I'll probably start count my army as "puppy blue" X-foundation viking marines
Yes I know. I don't think I've ever blamed the players for something GW fudged up.
I dunno, Wulfen strike a particular nerve, because 13th company in the EoT campaign was the epitome of awesome. Now that they're back with really wonky, jazz hands sculpts, are pretty harshly undercosted and stupidly strong compared to any other CC unit in the game (IKs included) with the corniest rule in the game. As if that wasn't enough they buff other units with some pretty nifty benefits.
That aside, no reason to hate your army man. You started an army of space vikings you thought was cool and Gee-dubs turned them into... well what we're talking about.
3 turns to make it to CC? Are you loading them in a flyer or playing Hammer and anvil set up every game? Put em in a LR and you're in CC turn 1. Turn 2 on foot unless you're playing with like 2 dozen pieces of difficult terrain. They may be on foot, but they can move 6, and more or less charge up to 18" (run and charge).
No, running on foot. Pay 250pts for LR? Ha-ha, no way. I'll buy another unit of full equipped cavalry for that points and there still will be some points left. My wulfens are running on foot and 3-rd turns is the closest when they manage to reach someone.
Meh different play styles I guess. T2 assaults by wulfen in a dawn of war set up are almost to be expected at my lgs. I've even seen a few T1 charges (granted either lucky dice rolls, terrible deployment by the opponent or both). Believe me my friend, it's definitely possible.
Meh different play styles I guess. T2 assaults by wulfen in a dawn of war set up are almost to be expected at my lgs. I've even seen a few T1 charges (granted either lucky dice rolls, terrible deployment by the opponent or both). Believe me my friend, it's definitely possible.
Yeah, you are right here. Another CC army probably will make CC much earlier.
Every opponent I face tries avoid wulfen as long as possible, or charge them with some invincible deathstar
But, to be honest, my regular opponents are mostly eldar, tau and necrons, so they use every chance to place tons of shooting at my fluffyfoots
Dakka Wolf wrote: The two squads of scouts are going to take the challenge, they play it passive and block the Wulfen to make a squad of five block eight inches of the field so that even if they take casualties in the shooting phase they still block the path with a bubble. They're also going to sit in two rows because the whole 2' rule means no charging through enemy units.
So, these Scouts have Bolt Guns that have 24 inch range and rapid fire, lets tally ten wounds at 24 inches, twenty wounds in the first rapid fire, ten in the second and ten wounds in each overwatch.
50 potential wounds dropped by 80% ability to shrug them off is ten wounds, how many wounds does a five man squad of Wulfen get again?
250 Points worth of Wulfen scrapped by 110 points worth of Scouts, probably with one unit of surviving Scouts in the deal to help block the TWC, even if you completely void the overwatch due to the regularity that it gets nothing you're still getting 40 shots at the mutts.
What is this math you're doing? I'm genuinely lost. When you're saying "ten wounds at 24 inches" you mean 10 shots right? 50 potential wounds actually means 50 shots fired, yes?
Wulfen start 24" away, you get first turn, you fire 10 hit 6.67 wound 3.33 with 1.11 failed saves and 0.74 failed FNP.
Wulfen move 6" run whatever, they're maybe 15" away. So walk forward rapid fire 12" away, 20 shots equals 1.48 failed FNP equals 1 dead wulfen. Bottom of turn two wulfen charge one of the units, 10 overwatch shots makes 0.18 failed FNP, combat is another 0.27 wounds, squad gets wiped.
Second rapid fire, 10 shots with the remaining squad, another 0.74, another 0.18 from overwatch, another 0.27 from combat before your second squad is dead.
Adding up the total of the two squads, that's 3.86 wounds, or about two dead wulfen, out of a squad of 5. They held them back until turn 4 instead of turn 3, but you've still got 3 wulfen in your deployment zone.
I'm really not sure what you were trying to say, that 50 shots has the potential of killing 10 wulfen. A lasgun has the chance to kill a wulfen in a single turn, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I'm not saying I wouldn't try to screen with a cheap unit, or that you shouldn't try shooting them with bolters, but trying to say that bolters are the most efficient way to kill them? That's just a blatant lie.
A vindicator, on the other hand, only needs to score 6 hits to kill that many, and a plate dropped dead center on a squad has about a 70% chance of hitting within 3" of the target. Perhaps combine the vindicator AND the scouts and you'd have a chance.
Lets talk about the things I missed, I missed rolling to wound, I also missed rolling to hit and that big old pie plate that can scatter and miss completely or be limited down to three possible wounds per turn by spreading the unit, or in rare but insanely funny moments ruin the very Vindicator that fired it or something else of value.
As for Lascanons find a Space Marine unit that gets five of them for 125 points or less and I will immediately concede that one.
You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.
nintura wrote: You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.
Don't forget ap4 force weapons.
Seriously though, your army is the psychic parallel to the Wolves CC abilities. That 5+ becomes a 4+ with the MoT, rerolling 1s of I'm not mistaken. Can't really excuse the gakky weapons though.
Martel732 wrote: Allow me to shed the smallest tear for CSM and their new uber book. Meanwhile, Wulfen >> than my entire codex and my new book.
You sure about that?
Our last tournament was won by Blood Angels, dumped five or six Lucius Pods with normal and Librarian Dreads around his opponents in the first two turns and just started flaming away with Heavy Flamers and Pyromancy.
Didn't face him myself because I got curbstomped early but he made a mess of everything he faced, Tau Riptides, Eldar, Libby Conclave, Necrons and not that it counts for much these days but an Ork Green Tide.
You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.
Martel, I'm going to buy you a cuddly plush Riptide for Xmas. It might enjoy squishing your usually-murderous infantry and nimbly dance away from the fists of your angry and befuddled dreadnoughts, but isn't it cute and loveable?
Martel732 wrote: You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.
You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.
If somebody else was running my list that weekend maybe, but not me, not with my luck for that comp.
Curse gave Furious Charge instead of movement bonus.
Two Rhinos with Dozer Blades bogged on first turn.
Lost three TWC from the Deathpack to Overwatch.
Failed 8' Charge.
That luck stayed with me all weekend.
What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.
My biggest complaint is that I finished my book during the Tau shooting phase. Then when it's my turn they wake me up and I'm supposed to remember my strategy. Crafty Tau. I'm on to you guys.
Silver144 wrote: What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.
The big deal is that some armies simply have no way of dealing with the Riptide.
Imperial Guard, Nids and CSM mainly.
nintura wrote: You get 3++ for 10 points? And here I'm wondering why I have to pay 15 points for a 5++, 30 points for half an assault cannon, 20 points for a quarter of a typhoon missile launcher, and 50 for a terminator with AP 3 weapons.
Don't forget ap4 force weapons.
Seriously though, your army is the psychic parallel to the Wolves CC abilities. That 5+ becomes a 4+ with the MoT, rerolling 1s of I'm not mistaken. Can't really excuse the gakky weapons though.
you're right in that the 5++ becomes a 4++ IF you are under the effects of a blessing. However, re-rolling ones doesn't happen unless you MAX out your detachment. I.E maximum number of rubric marine squads, maximum number of scarab terminators, and maximum number of sorcerers. I'll let you figure out how many points you'll need to play to do that lol.
Silver144 wrote: What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.
They also beat almost all my units in CC. And outshoot everything in my codex. And never die, since they are more durable than a Warhound titan. You're also forgetting the ion accelerator.
They can be hurt by Pyromancy unless they have some rule stating otherwise, by using the Molten Beam...
Ive killed my share of Riptides, just have to chase them down. Force is a great way to do it, Leviathan Dreads in Lucius Pattern Pods are another really great way to do it. Either corner them, or ignore them and take objectives.
As for 1k Sons, I just use Treason of Tzeentch and make their biggest gun squad shoot their best squad. Worked great with their huge-ass D-missile, 2 shot D-cannon, anchor suit, whatever it's called. I took that thing and lit up an entire broadside squad. It was glorious.
Silver144 wrote: What's the big deal about riptides? They are nice obj grabbers and can be a bit annoying with their 12 6-4 shots, but after you cut down all markerlights they are easily ignored. Or just put some tarpit at them, they'll stuck forever.
They also beat almost all my units in CC. And outshoot everything in my codex. And never die, since they are more durable than a Warhound titan. You're also forgetting the ion accelerator.
Not sure is it sarcasm or not Oh that ion accelerator, terrifying weapon of mass destruction with heavy3 7-2 shots with BS3, or even the large blast (that will, probably scatter somewhere). Skitarii have 3 such weapon in a squad. With the introdaction of Riptide Wing the amount of this option is somewhere around zero Everyone prefer to make one-use 72 shots with 6-4 rending profile. Thats kicking ass, no doubt. But for their point cost (around 700) I faced much worse thing, the whole invis deathstar for example.
Their melee? 3 attack with 2 init and 2 ws? Hitting on 5+, average 1 wound per turn, even the min tac squad will tarpit him, but usually there are couple better options for that work. Not to mention that single axe in squad probably will make a mess of him in 2-3 rounds.
Will not even comment his survivability. With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away. If we are talking about competitive play, ofc. In fun matches even mutilators may be OP against bunch of guards with flamers.
" With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."
Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.
Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.
" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"
You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.
Martel732 wrote: You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.
You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.
Do I need to do all the math? Heavy flamer equals 1 hit, 0.33 wounds, 0.056 failed saves. A 5.6% chance of a wound.
Stop compare everything to BA.
BA is underpowered army, somewhere around the CSM. If they are your power standard, then almost everything in game OP and broken.
And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BA, as well as SW suffers for denying Spiritual Liege's ultra book BA was punished with terrible codex and my fellow brothers was turned to wuffy wolf wolfing wolves... not to mention our fearsome king, who become a puppy blue Santa
Martel732 wrote: " With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."
Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.
Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.
" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"
You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.
Yep, I'd feel sorry for my dad's Black Templar against such a thing. In our newer armies, they aren't much of a threat, and people forget that. Riptides are surely hard to kill. But they don't cause all the devastation people think they do. IMO Leviathan Dreads are far worse, specially with the pod, but also quite a bit more cost I guess.
Silver144 wrote: Stop compare everything to BA.
BA is underpowered army, somewhere around the CSM. If they are your power standard, then almost everything in game OP and broken.
And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BA, as well as SW suffers for denying Spiritual Liege's ultra book BA was punished with terrible codex and my fellow brothers was turned to wuffy wolf wolfing wolves... not to mention our fearsome king, who become a puppy blue Santa
Riptides can't be shot to death easily by anything short of D. It's more than just BA.
Martel732 wrote: " With amount of AP2 shooting his 5 wounds will fly away."
Except they don't. 3++/5+++ is a bitch. More durable than a Warhound titan. Say it with me.
Riptides actually beat most BA units in CC. You're too used to SW easy street in CC.
" even the min tac squad will tarpit him"
You don't get it. That's a win for the Tau. So the Riptide gets to shoot and shoot and shoot and then after all that, you have to sacrifice one more squad to tarpit it for the rest of the game.
Yep, I'd feel sorry for my dad's Black Templar against such a thing. In our newer armies, they aren't much of a threat, and people forget that. Riptides are surely hard to kill. But they don't cause all the devastation people think they do. IMO Leviathan Dreads are far worse, specially with the pod, but also quite a bit more cost I guess.
Depends on how vulnerable you are to intercepting AP 2 pie plates. Skyhammer marines might as well pack it up. Leviathan dreads are a pure joke compared to Riptides. They can actually be killed.
"And their activated 3++ means lack of shooting for the entire round, which makes them even easier to ignore."
Martel please stop comparing everything to blood angels
I mean oh no how dare my thousand sons have ap 3 bolters or 4 shot slightly weak assault cannons with better range or how dare they have a psyker as a servant and how dare their terminators have power swords and a 2 wounds level 2 sergant wah wah wah
Pardon me for not having any sympathy for you as a BA player after what your codex did to my csm in 5th
Had my Wulfen cherry poppe don my last game of 40k. They walked through genestealers, gaunts, and warriors, and I came to realise that these things were Hulk Hogan on speed. They sold no injuries, and got the crowd worked into a frenzy.
I've decided in the future to feed them a fodder unit of gaunts, or gun them down with copious shots. I still think they're cool though
While I absolutely love the fluff and idea behind the curse and believe that there are far scarier units in the game to face; the current implementation of wulfen really isn't all it could be IMO.
I can't see these guys hiding behind a storm shield and honestly that's the piece of war gear that seems to be causing a lot of complaints, without it any army should be a able to take a unit of 4+ marines off the table...
Perhaps give the squad the ability to buy an 5++ or scout or outflank at a reasonable price hike. I mean as long as they have a weakness (footslogging, weak to dakka, cost) they should be able to hit like a truck in melee. The strikes in death rule already sets a glass cannon/berserk theme.
On a side note:
playing skyhammer into tau seems like it would make for a short game with or without riptide; depending on wether the spae communists remembered to bring EWO or not...
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Martel please stop comparing everything to blood angels
I mean oh no how dare my thousand sons have ap 3 bolters or 4 shot slightly weak assault cannons with better range or how dare they have a psyker as a servant and how dare their terminators have power swords and a 2 wounds level 2 sergant wah wah wah
Pardon me for not having any sympathy for you as a BA player after what your codex did to my csm in 5th
So noted. I have iks now as well but wulfen rape them too with effort
Martel732 wrote: You can't hurt Riptides with pyromancy. And yes, Wulfen would have destroyed that list. There's nothing BA can field that isn't a total victim to Wulfen and TWC.
You can hurt the Riptides with Heavy Flamers and Powerfists though and he very much hurt them.
Do I need to do all the math? Heavy flamer equals 1 hit, 0.33 wounds, 0.056 failed saves. A 5.6% chance of a wound.
You just said it yourself - "A 5.6% chance of a wound" small it may be but it isn't 0% and four of his Heavy Flamer shots got wounds on Riptides.
Turn 1
BA: Lucius Pod Dreads onto field - Dreads stay in pods.
Tau response: Marker Lights followed by Riptide shooting - Destroyed all Pods and one Dread, First Blood Shooting Tau.
BA: Psychic phase (Pyromancy) Hits Marker drones with templates and a Nova. Wiped one unit and decimated another two.
BA: Shooting Phase fired Heavy Flamers on Marker Drones and Riptides, two wounds on two Riptides, more Marker Drones destroyed.
Tau: Movement Phase Marker Drones scramble to block Dreads from Riptides, Riptides put up Shields.
Tau: Shooting phase was horrible tbh, didn't get more than one marker light on any Dread, only pen roll destroyed a regular Dread's Heavy Flamer.
Turn 2
BA: More Dreads pass reserves and land.
Tau: Manage to explode one pod and glance it's occupant.
BA: Movement nothing much really, moved everything closer.
BA: Psychic Phase more Novas and Flame templates, more busted up Marker Drones.
BA: Shooting targets Riptides with Multi Meltas to declare them as the targets, scores a smattering of wounds, drops Heavy Flame Templates over Marker Drones, just clipping their intended targets, scoring another pair of wounds on Riptides and clearing legal charge pathways.
BA: Declares Charges.
Tau: Shameful overwatch.
BA: Makes successful charges and kills two Riptides
Tau player surrenders like a sook.
Sure, if the Tau just stands there and lets himself get assaulted. Dreads are slow and poor at assaulting, ESPECIALLY when hiding in an immobile pod. Some of these Tau battle reports blow my mind. I could do a better job with a vastly inferior list.
Martel732 wrote: Sure, if the Tau just stands there and lets himself get assaulted. Dreads are slow and poor at assaulting, ESPECIALLY when hiding in an immobile pod. Some of these Tau battle reports blow my mind. I could do a better job with a vastly inferior list.
Nobody said every Tau player was a tactical genius. He hid in a corner like he did in every match and when the Pods started arriving had nowhere to run and limited options due to the spammy nature of his list..
Ive faced Tau armies many, many times. Having Riptides to Stormsurges to the big stealth suits. Sometimes multiples at once. I've never once lost my Leviathan Dread. Throw in Brey'arth, drop pods, Legion of the damned, and I usually table them by turn 3-4.
I'm talking a better job vs the BA list. Dreads are mortal. They can die. Rather easily in 7th, might I add. I almost never lose to other BA. I can't wrap my head around the Tau losing that match. Worst Tau ever to lose to BA. Should never happen.
Yeah, lots of tau in our game club too. But zero Stormsurges, to be honest. We just ban all superheavy outside the intercity tournaments. Riptides are never was a big deal, even to our two DE players. They just spam them to death with 5-2 destructors.
Martel732 wrote: I can't wrap my head around the Tau losing that match.
Why not?
Tau want to abuse range. If you trap them between your forces and the board edge, the next step is pretty straightforward.
It's not a complicated strategy. The crux is weathering that much firepower. Obviously that's no mean feat, so the Lucius Pods must have made his list a lot more sturdy.
Because Tau suits outrun dreadnoughts. Maybe the infantry couldn't get away. I guess he lost in deployment and no one I play against makes that mistake with pods. It's like people lining up in the open and wondering why they lose to Skyhammer.
I've never seen a Wulfen Spam list but any CC army would struggle against Dreads that stay inside their Pods.
Lucius Pods are big and powerful Close Combat squads tend to have small model counts so they can't just surround the pods and prevent escape when they wreck the Pod. A Deathstar could do it, one pod at a time.
Martel732 wrote: Because Tau suits outrun dreadnoughts. Maybe the infantry couldn't get away. I guess he lost in deployment and no one I play against makes that mistake with pods. It's like people lining up in the open and wondering why they lose to Skyhammer.
It's hard to out run dreads when your at the table edge
Martel732 wrote: I can't wrap my head around the Tau losing that match.
Why not?
Tau want to abuse range. If you trap them between your forces and the board edge, the next step is pretty straightforward.
It's not a complicated strategy. The crux is weathering that much firepower. Obviously that's no mean feat, so the Lucius Pods must have made his list a lot more sturdy.
You are correct. The Lucius Pattern Pod is what makes it. Ive never even lost my pod before. In our last game at 1850, the Tau player threw everything he had at the pod and dread in the first two turns, allowing for my army to get into position. I never did kill the riptide, just chased it around throwing out some shots. But I've never once lost that Leviathan dread. In another game, he single handedly took out that armor 15 fortification that has the big D weapon, and a baneblade all by himself. That pod gave most of my army shroud due to blocking LOS against that fortification the first turn and my Lev got lucky with the melta lance and took it out in the first round of firing. Brey'arth came in with double dreadtalon flamers and cleared out all the IG inside, and the Lev Dread just turned it's attention towards the baneblade. I'll always swear by that 380 point combo of Lev and Pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Because Tau suits outrun dreadnoughts. Maybe the infantry couldn't get away. I guess he lost in deployment and no one I play against makes that mistake with pods. It's like people lining up in the open and wondering why they lose to Skyhammer.
You can't outrun them when they go towards one corner, you drop the pod about 6" or so in front of them. They can't jetpack far enough to get out of danger. Remember, in a Lucius pod, the dread can stay in, but gets to fire out due to it being an open topped vehicle, and it has assault ramps. Of course they can do other things like put drones or such in front to buffer the suits, but that only lasts so long. Your second turn gets your Vulkan with squad and Librarian with the book artifact to drop right on top and light it up. It's just too much pressure. Add in a squad or two of Legion of the Damned with Combi-melta, Melta, and Heavy Melta being able to deep strike in pretty much where you want and fire all weapons at full BS, ignoring cover, and Tau dont' really stand much of a chance.
Martel732 wrote: I can't wrap my head around the Tau losing that match.
Why not?
Tau want to abuse range. If you trap them between your forces and the board edge, the next step is pretty straightforward.
It's not a complicated strategy. The crux is weathering that much firepower. Obviously that's no mean feat, so the Lucius Pods must have made his list a lot more sturdy.
You are correct. The Lucius Pattern Pod is what makes it. Ive never even lost my pod before. In our last game at 1850, the Tau player threw everything he had at the pod and dread in the first two turns, allowing for my army to get into position. I never did kill the riptide, just chased it around throwing out some shots. But I've never once lost that Leviathan dread. In another game, he single handedly took out that armor 15 fortification that has the big D weapon, and a baneblade all by himself. That pod gave most of my army shroud due to blocking LOS against that fortification the first turn and my Lev got lucky with the melta lance and took it out in the first round of firing. Brey'arth came in with double dreadtalon flamers and cleared out all the IG inside, and the Lev Dread just turned it's attention towards the baneblade. I'll always swear by that 380 point combo of Lev and Pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Because Tau suits outrun dreadnoughts. Maybe the infantry couldn't get away. I guess he lost in deployment and no one I play against makes that mistake with pods. It's like people lining up in the open and wondering why they lose to Skyhammer.
You can't outrun them when they go towards one corner, you drop the pod about 6" or so in front of them. They can't jetpack far enough to get out of danger. Remember, in a Lucius pod, the dread can stay in, but gets to fire out due to it being an open topped vehicle, and it has assault ramps. Of course they can do other things like put drones or such in front to buffer the suits, but that only lasts so long. Your second turn gets your Vulkan with squad and Librarian with the book artifact to drop right on top and light it up. It's just too much pressure. Add in a squad or two of Legion of the Damned with Combi-melta, Melta, and Heavy Melta being able to deep strike in pretty much where you want and fire all weapons at full BS, ignoring cover, and Tau dont' really stand much of a chance.
Glad somebody understands it properly. Beyond the Lucius Pods that I use as well and Librarian Dreads that I'm super jealous of I don't know Blood Angels.
