Mine also arrived today. Halfway through inspection, but the NA and Nightstalker resins arere excellent, the restics are all very good, even the skinny knife arm stalker, and the giant is absolutely mental. Mine has the same problem re: the two part lower torso only just not dry fitting, and my stone walls are also banana shaped. Only criticism so far would be the lack of a third head option for the Snow Trolls, will make KoW regiments a little bit samey.
What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).
You're making the mistake of assuming the all WFB players were like minded. WFB was the only fantasy mass battle game most people would consider for a long time. WFB also tried to "please everyone" to some extent (which did not help the quality of the game at all). Different players of that game liked different things about it. Some liked the setting and and enjoyed the crazy spells, others (like I would have) were in it for the game and tactical challenge. Some of those players were evidently the kind of player KoW is made for and getting them into KoW was a good move. Other players (the kind 9th Age is made for) liked other parts of WFB and are not the kind of player KoW is made for, those are also the kind of players who would be over represented if one polled the opinions of 9th Age players.
Suggesting that it was not worthwhile for Mantic to reach out to WFB refugees because some of the were not the kind of player KoW is made for ignores the other players, the ones Mantic were actually trying to reach.
A third to a half of our large and unwieldy KoW group started as WHFB players - including some that hadn't played since 6th, but still had their Brettonians and Lizardmen. (Mostly SCAdians - they enjoy a diverse knight life.)
We are thinking about splitting the group into two Leagues - with competition between them. But I worry that if one League has poor leadership, it might collapse. On the other hand, with over thirty players, it is a pain in the butt to give everyone a chance to keep up with the League.
On the other, other hand, we already have a Junior League, so... who knows. (Junior League will be trying out Vanguard next month - starting fresh, and increasing the points each week.)
The Auld Grump - plus, it gives the kids something to add to their Christmas lists... if they are good little boys, girls, and goblins.
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NTRabbit wrote: Mine also arrived today. Halfway through inspection, but the NA and Nightstalker resins arere excellent, the restics are all very good, even the skinny knife arm stalker, and the giant is absolutely mental. Mine has the same problem re: the two part lower torso only just not dry fitting, and my stone walls are also banana shaped. Only criticism so far would be the lack of a third head option for the Snow Trolls, will make KoW regiments a little bit samey.
I haven't had a chance to see anything aside from the giant.
Megan has the rest of it in her grabby little mitts. (Have I ever mentioned how much I love my wife?)
The main thing the "no models, no rules" scare did for me was make me realize that I really wish that Mantic would put out some Varangur models. Especially if they drew more from the Realms of Chaos - 5th Edition WHFB chaos warrior aesthetic than the current "homogeneous marching cloak-brutes" plastics.
Psychopomp wrote: The main thing the "no models, no rules" scare did for me was make me realize that I really wish that Mantic would put out some Varangur models. Especially if they drew more from the Realms of Chaos - 5th Edition WHFB chaos warrior aesthetic than the current "homogeneous marching cloak-brutes" plastics.
So much exalt. When playing with troop "bricks" the kit should be varied enough to make the first rank either as homogeneous as possible for regular "uniformed" armies or as varied as possible for a mob. It shouldn't be impossible to outdo GW in both departments.
The Lower Abyssals, Flame Bearers, and Succubi sprues are all from the existing line - not bad, but have been covered for a while.
The cavalry is restic - but the pieces fit together well, a little soap and water to remove the mold release, and a quick going over with a hobby knife to remove the mold lines.
The mold lines themselves were easy to reach, making cleanup easier than I was expecting.
But the high point is definitely the resin models - in particular the demon riding piggyback on a larger demon is a nifty little piece that will become an NPC in my Pathfinder game.
The Succubus leader and the Gargoyle are also quite nice.
The remaining large demon is... kinda dopey looking, a bit of a let down. The only one that I will likely not find a use for outside of KoW/Vanguard.
Overall, I am happy with it - though my wife and I may argue about which of us lays claim to the force. (When Bones IV is released, we are planning on His and Hers Abyssal armies, her force the hammer, mine the anvil.)
I was kind of surprised to see that the Northern Alliance is Good - not often you see trolls on the side of the white hats.
They are not the Varangar, and are among the many that the Varangar call enemies.
Model wise, they may well share with the Varangar, but that is because barbarians are barbarians, whichever side they are on.
The Auld Grump - Northern Alliance is the next box and baggie we will be opening.
1 - "We won't make rules for models we don't make going forwards" - that's a misrepresentation of what I said (or at least has been taken the wrong way or not fully quoted). We will not ADD or make NEW rules for anything we don't have a model for or intend to make models for. Don't expect us to add a new army to a system to support someone else's model line. It doesn't mean that things like Herd or Ratkin are going to be deleted. They already have rules. If we manage to get round to doing our own Ratkin (for example) they might change their unit types or rules in line with the new ideas we would have for them). What we aren't going to do is things like put out an army list for steam-punk dwarfs in airships... because we don't make models for those.
2 - The Brotherhood are not dead either. Sure they took a battering and will come out the other side of the events from the summer campaign in a slightly battered shape, but that means they evolve and move on in their story rather than being removed.
If we add a new army now it will be one we make models for or are about to make models for ... we are not going to release new units or anything for stuff we don't make any more
The “or anything” seem to be the root of the confusion at least for me but I know you were answering questions on the fly and sometimes what you intended isn’t what’s picked up.
1 - "We won't make rules for models we don't make going forwards" - that's a misrepresentation of what I said (or at least has been taken the wrong way or not fully quoted). We will not ADD or make NEW rules for anything we don't have a model for or intend to make models for. Don't expect us to add a new army to a system to support someone else's model line. It doesn't mean that things like Herd or Ratkin are going to be deleted. They already have rules. If we manage to get round to doing our own Ratkin (for example) they might change their unit types or rules in line with the new ideas we would have for them). What we aren't going to do is things like put out an army list for steam-punk dwarfs in airships... because we don't make models for those.
2 - The Brotherhood are not dead either. Sure they took a battering and will come out the other side of the events from the summer campaign in a slightly battered shape, but that means they evolve and move on in their story rather than being removed.
Cheers for the clarification, that makes sense and soothes any worries I might have had, as long as existing lists continue to be supported I;ve no issue with you focusing on your own stuff going forward
Megan latched onto the Night Stalkers - and already has plans for them both in Vanguard/Kings of War and in Pathfinder.
We played a quick game last night - and it was quick. Less than an hour for our game, and that was with lots of pauses to look up rules.
I am stealing the Good undead from Edge of the Abyss for my Vanguard warband - and to balance things I can only take Neutral allies until the warband is well established - he won't work with Evil, and Good won't work with him.
At least until he is pretty much confirmed as one of the Good guys, at any rate.
Also, I am renaming the ghouls 'rabble' for this warband, because dead eaters are kind of hard to think of as Good.
Instead, these are the outcast, the forlorn, and those seeking redemption. (But otherwise using the rules for ghouls, because they fill a needed role in the army.)
Megan went with Night Stalkers - who were an interesting match against my undead in KoW - undead need Inspiring to work, and Night Stalkers can 'borrow' it.
In Vanguard... they don't get that advantage.
Even so, I only barely managed a win, and had to keep my Necromancer well back from the front, only using him as support.
Tomorrow the Junior League for KoW starts back up - and the first few sessions will be Vanguard, then alternating between KoW and Vanguard, with bonuses in KoW for winning the Vanguard missions.
Tomorrow will be people picking their starting forces, and then quick battles that will not count toward the League, just learning the rules.
I roped Megan into it this time.
The Auld Grump - after all, sooner or later we will be inducting our own wee player into the game...
I think that's the first sighting of painted Spectres I don't think the glowy green fits the rest of the NS theme blue might work better like original artwork
I pre-oreded all my stuff from Wayland Games and - surprise! - as soon as the game released they changed all their listings from “pre-order” to “restock expected.” I have spent tons of money with Wayland but I’m getting fed up with their shenanigans and gakky customer service.
Yes, I did tons of business with Wayland in the wake of the referendum, especially for Mantic and Warlord products. I think they are still the most affordable retailer for Mantic stuff (TWD aside, perhaps). But taking pre-orders for Vanguard that they can’t actually fill upon release ... it’s just the latest in a few shady and/or backwards things they’ve done to me.
I am favorably impressed by the resin that Mantic used for this - not brittle, nice texture, no greasiness, no bubbles, and it looks like complete fills on all of the molds.
Lots of vents, some flash - but even the sheeted flash is not brittle, it needs cutting to remove, not just a brush and gone.
Not difficult to remove with a knife - no flaking or chipping.
Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.
Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.
Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...
I like a lot of their restics and board game plastics. If they are cheaper than resin, I'm happy for them to keep going with them. However, they need to make sure to use the manufacturers who get it right, like whoever made the Mars Attacks and Dreadball Extreme minis.
Whatever resin they are using, I hope they keep on using it.
Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...
While it would be nice it’s just not practical as it is they had to produce 80,000 resin minis (per update #59) just to cover the KS requirements, they can’t tool everything in HIPS it’s a cost plus expected level of sales issue and they don’t have the manpower to do everything in resin - they have 1 caster and 1 mold maker per the Vanguard Q&A and resin molds only last for so many castings so for stuff that needs to be mass produced but doesn’t justify the cost or quantity of HIPS PVC is the only real alternative they have.
EDIT and as Bob said there’s final retail costs as well to consider currently it’s £25 for 3 resins and £25 for 15 PVC minis I doubt many would spend £125 on a resin Vanguard Warband.
Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...
I've not received my pledge, but I'm interested to know what new models are made of the "restic crap". Personally I hated it for small multipart models like the v1 Deadzone enforcers, but it was perfect for models like the KoW ogres and werewolves.
The newer material is fine, and was pretty damn detailed for Deadzone v2, for those models not made in real Hard Plastic.
I wasn't aware the Vanguard KS was making anything in that old restic crap and I'll be annoyed, but more surprised, if it is.
Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.
The KS was clear that PVC is being used
These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.
Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.
Yes, it's a really nice material to work with. I got the Fire Elemental in that kind of resin, it was a pleasure to build them. If only they did use resin for ALL Vanguard miniatures and not that restic crap...
I've not received my pledge, but I'm interested to know what new models are made of the "restic crap". Personally I hated it for small multipart models like the v1 Deadzone enforcers, but it was perfect for models like the KoW ogres and werewolves.
The newer material is fine, and was pretty damn detailed for Deadzone v2, for those models not made in real Hard Plastic.
I wasn't aware the Vanguard KS was making anything in that old restic crap and I'll be annoyed, but more surprised, if it is.
They did, in fact, make many of the minis from the restic.
But then, I am not filled with hate for the material, and am, in point of fact, quite happy with the restic models in the sets.
While not as nice as the resin, it is quite serviceable - in particular, the giant is made from the PVC material, and looks very good.
I admit I have a strong dislike of this PVC material. It's not the same feeling when you work it in comparison with what I call "true plastic" like GW kits.
Of course when you've done the work, it can be fine as a result. But I never enjoyed building PVC miniatures, while I did for other materials. It is indeed better for bigger miniatures like monsters or monstruous infantry, but to me it's a material that should NOT be used for "regular" infantry sized miniatures. The smaller they are, the more annoying it is to work when you build it. It's fine for boardgames, because these miniatures aren't really intended for modelism - you just pick them from the box and immediately play with them, you don't care much about their details or if they have annoying mold lines right in the middle of their face. It's not the same with a wargame.
The argument of having to use PVC to keep it "cheap" for the customers, I'm not sure it's the true reason here. I believe it's cheap for Mantic Games to produce those, yes...but you still notice the prices are deliberately higher than with KoW, mainly because Vanguard is a skirmish game and need less miniatures - you can't explain it otherwise, really. It's the same logic with Walking Dead.
I believe they could have made it full resin, because it's a skirmish game. It would have justified the higher price better, to me. When you look at the sculpts of even the grunts, they barely have variations in poses - it's just a switch of head or weapon at best, so diversity of build can't be used as well as excuse for not using resin.
You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks. Those games need too many miniatures for resin, and higher prices will keep the fresh blood away. If Mantic were to invest hard plastic money into ever range, they'd never be able to justify making some of their wackier or more interesting minis, like the Teratons, Sorak, robots, cyphers, and so on.
If you only want to use HIpS plastics, you can covert a lot of units from them. However, you might try out the new stuff before you condemn it. Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.
DaveC wrote: Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.
The KS was clear that PVC is being used
These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.
Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.
On a final note for me on this... I only use the word 'restic' to describe the material that was used in Deadzone v1. That stuff is very different to the PVC used in Walking Dead or DZ2. The PVC material is pretty good. I worried when the word restic was thrown about for Vanguard that Mantic were going back to the old dz1 stuff. I like the new pvc models, I don't mind metal, and Mantic's resin has always been good. I'm really looking forward to the new Vanguard models. C'mon shipping notice. :-)
The thing that needs to be remembered when working with PVC - be it 'restic', 'Bonesium', or whatever, is that you need to slice the mold lines and flash away - scraping or filing does not work that well on the softer but more elastic material.
A very, very fine sandpaper can also be used, but I generally just use a fresh blade for my X-Acto.
But I was modeling with vinyls back in the seventies, so I already knew that material a bit. (And, good lords and ladies, the adhesive I used for the models stunk to the high heavens!)
*EDIT* My wife made serious inroads on the Night Stalkers while I was at work, yesterday - and will be finishing the Mind Screech today - she is using it for a monster in her Pathfinder game that almost caused a TPK last time... so I am a bit worried.
DaveC wrote: Restic is just a different type of PVC made using a different formula the new minis (including The Walking Dead and Deadzone ones) are made using a different type of PVC to restic.
The KS was clear that PVC is being used
These miniatures will be made in PVC plastic (the same as that used in The Walking Dead) and resin.
Sarouan seems to have dislike for PVC going by past posts in particular Mantic’s PVC.
On a final note for me on this... I only use the word 'restic' to describe the material that was used in Deadzone v1. That stuff is very different to the PVC used in Walking Dead or DZ2. The PVC material is pretty good. I worried when the word restic was thrown about for Vanguard that Mantic were going back to the old dz1 stuff. I like the new pvc models, I don't mind metal, and Mantic's resin has always been good. I'm really looking forward to the new Vanguard models. C'mon shipping notice. :-)
I am pretty sure that the models in Vanguard do use the same restic - but that Mantic now knows a good deal more about the material, its strengths and weaknesses.
Venting is better, and parts, in general, are larger.
Megan managed to clean several of the man sized models last night, and has them primed and ready for paint, I will be tackling the Abyssals over the weekend. (The only models from the KS that I have worked on so far are the giant and the resin piggy back demon - I am using it in Pathfinder as an Efreet eunuch and its master.)
And a special shout out to the new bard mini included with the scenery. From what I can tell, they started with the model of Ronnie prancing about as a bard, and strapped a brass band onto him. I don't think they ever showed this one as a preview - very funny model!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks.
Thing is, I'm talking about Vanguard here. The boosters they made show they could use resin for everything if they wanted, it's not a matter of the material "working or not" in the end. It's a design choice. They went with PVC for the starters because that's what they wanted - certainly to cut costs for themselves rather than offering quality material for their customers. Mantic was always about being "cheap", in all senses of the word.
Of course, the miniatures in themselves aren't especially cheap in comparison to the rest on their online shop.
Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.
And it's always annoying to build them. I know, I have them at home. Some are still in the boxes because I was fed up with the first I built. I don't even bother to make conversions or take time with painting - the material in itself isn't worth it.
That's the real truth, here. Now you can indeed getting used to the material and adapt yourself...but you will never remove the true disadvantages of this material in comparison to others that are available on the market, and that you know Mantic can perfectly use if they choose to do so.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You're not thinking it through. Resin would never work for games like Dreadball, Deadzone or Mars Attacks.
Thing is, I'm talking about Vanguard here. The boosters they made show they could use resin for everything if they wanted, it's not a matter of the material "working or not" in the end. It's a design choice. They went with PVC for the starters because that's what they wanted - certainly to cut costs for themselves rather than offering quality material for their customers. Mantic was always about being "cheap", in all senses of the word.
Of course, the miniatures in themselves aren't especially cheap in comparison to the rest on their online shop.
Vanguard is supposed to operate along the same lines as the games I mentioned, though. The sheer numbers of sets Mantic is planning to sell require a medium that is less costly and time consuming. The boosters you cite as evidence are for extremely rare units, like HQ choices. It's ridiculous to plan on selling the grunts in the same numbers and prices as the one-per-army elites. You seem to want Mantic to be a boutique miniatures retailer rather than a games manufacturer. The bulk of Mantic's customers feel differently, as evidenced by the continued success of Mantic's Kickstarters.
Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.
And it's always annoying to build them. I know, I have them at home. Some are still in the boxes because I was fed up with the first I built. I don't even bother to make conversions or take time with painting - the material in itself isn't worth it.
That's the real truth, here. Now you can indeed getting used to the material and adapt yourself...but you will never remove the true disadvantages of this material in comparison to others that are available on the market, and that you know Mantic can perfectly use if they choose to do so.
You and I have had some very different experiences. The PVC used in the last few campaigns has been much clear in cast and easier to work with in my experience. As someone who prefers HIPS, I find the PVC barely more difficult to work with than good quality resin, and better than some other companies' resin. I feel like you are overblowing the disadvantages of restic to fantastic degree, either based on negative early experiences or partisanship on the behalf of other plastic fantasy miniature companies. If PVC/restic were such a huge albatross, we wouldn't be seeing the golden age of big box boardgames on Kickstarter.
I mean, shoot, this stuff blows the pants off of Bones for 28mm humans, and Bones is raking in money blurry hand over blobby fist.
Vanguard is supposed to operate along the same lines as the games I mentioned, though. The sheer numbers of sets Mantic is planning to sell require a medium that is less costly and time consuming. The boosters you cite as evidence are for extremely rare units, like HQ choices. It's ridiculous to plan on selling the grunts in the same numbers and prices as the one-per-army elites.
You're aware that the dwarf warband is entirely in resin, right ?
This alone invalidates all of your arguments on that matter.
You seem to want Mantic to be a boutique miniatures retailer rather than a games manufacturer.
Non sense. You can do both if the will is there. And let's be clear : Mantic games is first a miniature seller. Games are just a tool to sell miniatures. They don't sell games that don't use them, after all - if they were solely a games manufacturer, that's what they would do, but that's not the case.
The bulk of Mantic's customers feel differently, as evidenced by the continued success of Mantic's Kickstarters.
The Vanguard Kickstarter didn't really go up before Ronnie came up with his "cheap sales" trick, once again. And ask the backers if they would rather like resin instead of PVC if that was given as a choice - I'm pretty sure the number of guys who would take PVC as their pick wouldn't be that high as you seem to believe.
You and I have had some very different experiences. The PVC used in the last few campaigns has been much clear in cast and easier to work with in my experience. As someone who prefers HIPS, I find the PVC barely more difficult to work with than good quality resin, and better than some other companies' resin. I feel like you are overblowing the disadvantages of restic to fantastic degree, either based on negative early experiences or partisanship on the behalf of other plastic fantasy miniature companies. If PVC/restic were such a huge albatross, we wouldn't be seeing the golden age of big box boardgames on Kickstarter.
I mean, shoot, this stuff blows the pants off of Bones for 28mm humans, and Bones is raking in money blurry hand over blobby fist.
Like I said, you can get used to PVC and work it to have a good result in the end. I'm just saying it's not an ideal and high quality material to work with, because that's not its main use. I'm not overblowing the disadvantages - I'm just stating it as it truly is - a cheap material used to cut costs and clearly not taken for the good of customers.
And I will repeat it again ; it's fine for boardgames, but seeing it used for wargames - which Vanguard is, it's not a boardgame in design - is clearly not meant for the players who are used to build miniatures, convert them and paint them with love and care. That a lot of Mantic players resign themselves to this material so that they can still have "low" prices is one thing, but I believe the "low prices" aren't exactly met with Vanguard nonetheless...so I believe the argument of "keeping it cheap" is kinda lost here, and Mantic is trying to sell its PVC as something with enough value in itself. I'm saying the material in itself isn't good enough for this perceived value.
I don´t think the prices have increased at all. The prices for character models were always around 8-10 pound, so three for 25 in the boosters is not an increase. The Vanguard warband starters have 15 figures for 25 pound, while the faction starters for Deadzone vary from 16 (Rebs) to 29 (Plague) at the same price. The ones with a higher amount of figures feature almost exclusively infantry models though, while the Rebs one has a large Terraton. It´s similar with the Vanguard warbands, which always have two large models (Butchers, Snow Trolls) or two cavalry models (Hellequins).
The resin Dwarfs won´t hit retail until next year, and I seriously doubt that you will get 15 of them in one starter for 25 pound. They will most likely put the three larger ones (or two and an Earth Elemental) in the booster and mix the rest with pvc/hard plastic firgures for the starter. I do hope that they make new pvc/hard plastic models though, like they did for the Basilean Men At Arms and Nuns.
Mantic have made some great miniatures in PVC/restic.
And it's always annoying to build them. I know, I have them at home. Some are still in the boxes because I was fed up with the first I built. I don't even bother to make conversions or take time with painting - the material in itself isn't worth it.
That's the real truth, here. Now you can indeed getting used to the material and adapt yourself...but you will never remove the true disadvantages of this material in comparison to others that are available on the market, and that you know Mantic can perfectly use if they choose to do so.
This is all really subjective though.
I've got a pile of metal and resin from Mierce as well some infinity stuff pre their assembly rework a year or so ago and this stuff from Mantic is way easier to assemble then either of those. Some of the metal Jutes from Mierce I'm probably just going to throw in the trash as they're so horrible to put together. That being said I'd still probably put mantic at a 6/10 for assemble ease but PVC/Restic has little to do with it as I'd place Privateer's restic at an 9/10 for assembly. Mantic though likes to do some basic multiparting with their PVC while others don't which is a trade off for easy of assembly.
I'm in the prefer PVC over Resin or metal camp as I actually like to use my miniatures and no matter how much nice the resin looks I prefer durability as that resin fig isn't going to look so pretty once you've re-glued and painted the same part 10 times. I could easily make a similar blanket statment that you can never remove resins disavantages compaired to PVC. It would be true from my perspective but a bad way to win an internet fight.
Please PM me if you are throwing away any Mierce as two of my good friends are huge Mierce collectors - we can find them a better home than the garbage!
Vanguard is supposed to operate along the same lines as the games I mentioned, though. The sheer numbers of sets Mantic is planning to sell require a medium that is less costly and time consuming. The boosters you cite as evidence are for extremely rare units, like HQ choices. It's ridiculous to plan on selling the grunts in the same numbers and prices as the one-per-army elites.
You're aware that the dwarf warband is entirely in resin, right ?
This alone invalidates all of your arguments on that matter.
I don't see how. Mantic already sells four HIPS dwarfs kits including command, so these resins are the premium product. They are also obviously a stopgap measure either to test the popularity of dwarfs before committing to PVC or because of an unpredicted surge in dwarf popularity. You are basically arguing that they make resin Death Korps of Krieg, therefore all GW Guard minis should be resin.
You seem to want Mantic to be a boutique miniatures retailer rather than a games manufacturer.
Non sense. You can do both if the will is there. And let's be clear : Mantic games is first a miniature seller. Games are just a tool to sell miniatures. They don't sell games that don't use them, after all - if they were solely a games manufacturer, that's what they would do, but that's not the case.
First of all, they do sell a game that doesn't use miniatures: Rise of the Shadow King the adventure game book. Check it out. It's fantastic.
But really, Mantic sells budget games and board games. They are the Toyota Camry to GW's Porche.
The bulk of Mantic's customers feel differently, as evidenced by the continued success of Mantic's Kickstarters.
The Vanguard Kickstarter didn't really go up before Ronnie came up with his "cheap sales" trick, once again. And ask the backers if they would rather like resin instead of PVC if that was given as a choice - I'm pretty sure the number of guys who would take PVC as their pick wouldn't be that high as you seem to believe.
I think it would be nearly unanimous. I, too, can make assumptions without any support.
But I'm sure you'll be able to tell me about many million dollar Kickstarters for games with resin components that delivered on time to thousands of happy backers.
You and I have had some very different experiences. The PVC used in the last few campaigns has been much clear in cast and easier to work with in my experience. As someone who prefers HIPS, I find the PVC barely more difficult to work with than good quality resin, and better than some other companies' resin. I feel like you are overblowing the disadvantages of restic to fantastic degree, either based on negative early experiences or partisanship on the behalf of other plastic fantasy miniature companies. If PVC/restic were such a huge albatross, we wouldn't be seeing the golden age of big box boardgames on Kickstarter.
I mean, shoot, this stuff blows the pants off of Bones for 28mm humans, and Bones is raking in money blurry hand over blobby fist.
Like I said, you can get used to PVC and work it to have a good result in the end. I'm just saying it's not an ideal and high quality material to work with, because that's not its main use. I'm not overblowing the disadvantages - I'm just stating it as it truly is - a cheap material used to cut costs and clearly not taken for the good of customers.
And I will repeat it again ; it's fine for boardgames, but seeing it used for wargames - which Vanguard is, it's not a boardgame in design - is clearly not meant for the players who are used to build miniatures, convert them and paint them with love and care. That a lot of Mantic players resign themselves to this material so that they can still have "low" prices is one thing, but I believe the "low prices" aren't exactly met with Vanguard nonetheless...so I believe the argument of "keeping it cheap" is kinda lost here, and Mantic is trying to sell its PVC as something with enough value in itself. I'm saying the material in itself isn't good enough for this perceived value.
It's not just meant for grizzled gamers. It's clearly meant to be an introductory product for all gamers.
Besides, the material is much better than you give it credit for. I just assembled the Basilean restics and they were super easy. I was able to scrape mold lines off like HIPS on smooth surfaces, like the back of the cat*, cloaks and the Defender's Idle Hands wings. The only issues were where the mold lines ran through textures and details, and that same issue exists with resin. The minis also took to super glue much faster than resins, with proper guiding tabs that make assembly a snap. While spears will still require attention, none of the limbs or swords were warped. And the details were crisp enough and delicate enough to work as traditional hero minis. If the defender got any blingier, he'd be a high elf prince.
My wife was really inspired by the nuns' pet cougar with the Elton John armor. She made me sing a song and everything.
"Hold me closer, tiny Panther. Count the headless in the vanguard. Wrap me up in steel and livery. Basilearina, you musta seen 'er, chomping on the man."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further evidence.
My pledge arrived today. The previous materials discussion has confused me. The resins take superglue, but restic? What sort of glue do I use, plastic cement or superglue?
Ancestral Hamster wrote: My pledge arrived today. The previous materials discussion has confused me. The resins take superglue, but restic? What sort of glue do I use, plastic cement or superglue?
I've used locktite on all my mantic models - restic, plastic and metal - with no issues.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: My pledge arrived today. The previous materials discussion has confused me. The resins take superglue, but restic? What sort of glue do I use, plastic cement or superglue?
How many people bothered respond and tell Mantic that?
Reading the notice there... it sounds like they were asking for a response, not stating that was what they were going to do.
Kind of the opposite of a promise, at least from what is being quoted there. (I had a girlfriend that used to play 'guess what I am thinking' games like that. My wife, on the other hand, asks questions, and answers questions, and listens to both the answers and the questions. Gods above and below, I love my wife!)
That's going to add like $100 to the cost again!!!!
Yeah it was over $100 fee I paid to FedEx to get my package of Giant Pledge + Some Extras.
Also, in typical Mantic incompetence, they stated the declared value of my package was my pledge value in GBP rather than USD, so I had to pay a conversion fee of 1.7 instead of 1.3. That's 40% extra right there.
Goofs.
Also, for reference: Canada Post/Royal Mail don't charge anything for international packages 90% of the time... On the 10% of packages that they do charge, it's just a $9.99 handling fee after tax.
This is why myself, and MANY others made a big deal during the campaign about not shipping via DHL, UPS, or FedEx to Canada, and that outcry is what prompted Mantic to offer what I quoted in the first place.
I've had some more time to assemble miniatures, so I'll share my thoughts.
For the restics, I found the Nightstalkers warband to be the worst in terms of difficulty cleaning or fitting pieces together. The mold lines on long, narrow claws or through textured areas are not quite as frustrating as the restic minis of yore, but a pretty big bummer in the modern age of PVC minis. However, the Basileans and the Abyss both had crisp details, even faces!, and other than shoulder pads and the occasional bent sword or spear, were about on par with HIPS for cleanup.
The plastic Basilean Men at Arms look great in terms of detail and proportions. Their shoulder pads, helmets and thigh armor have neat filigree that places them above Frostgrave or Runewars in my opinion. They also have crossbows (that look impractical) for a nice change from all stab by guys. However, they are noticeably shorter than the previous MaA plastics, with much stubbier swords, and their poses are much more subdued than their predecessors'. In regards to size and pose they're comparable to (glug) ...they're nearly (gluk) ...they almost look like (hurk) ...historicals. The new arms and heads fit pretty well on the old plastic torsos, though, and the older swords still look great swapped onto the newer arms. With the extra restic heads from the warband, there are lots of opportunities for conversions.
(Mantic also gave the kit six shields for every five guys, so it should be easy to snip out a pair of back wings for the sergeant.)
Bob, I really appreciate your thoughts on the new Men At Arms. Any chance you could post a comparison photo of their size next to the old MAAs? The large stature and great poses of the old ones are something I really came to appreciate.
I now find myself akwardly fending off an impulse to panic buy some of the old ones... After mocking them for years, I've discovered they are really fun for conversions for skirmish games because of their fun poses and because they don't look like historicals.
Gallahad wrote: Bob, I really appreciate your thoughts on the new Men At Arms. Any chance you could post a comparison photo of their size next to the old MAAs? The large stature and great poses of the old ones are something I really came to appreciate.
I now find myself akwardly fending off an impulse to panic buy some of the old ones... After mocking them for years, I've discovered they are really fun for conversions for skirmish games because of their fun poses and because they don't look like historicals.
One of these days I'll post pictures of my old MaA conversions with DA Bolter arms, GCPS las rifle arms (and heads), and other kinds of "instant rogue trader troops" conversions. I don't regret buying them at all.
So, here is a picture. The restics are just a smidge larger, although their heads are much bulkier, which makes them seem much taller. Here you can see a new MaA with and old sword and the one with the narrow base is an unbased old MaA with new arms, head and sword.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Bob isn't allowed to post his thoughts any more unless it's accompanied by a song!
I haven't gotten mine out of the big box of shame yet, but I'm glad to hear to his praise of them. I know he's a stickler for quality plastics.
If my wife insists again, there will be more music.
Anyway, I think I'm more forgiving about plastics than most. I certainly liked the Salamander plastics more than you did.
Second picture: the resin dude is much taller than the plastics, which seem to match the Dreadball Siren pretty well in size and proportions. The resin quality was great. The only place with any noticeable bubbles or holes was on the loin cloth of my palace ogre. However, if there's one place you don't want to see any holes, it's in your ogre's loin cloth.
Just so long as poeple know what they are getting into. The shoulderpad stubs need to be clipped and the torso sides cut to make flat sockets for arms to attach to. You're experienced, so probably won't have any trouble, but for someone who is new to miniatures, they might be frustrating.
Yeah, good point. I've done a bunch of converting with the old MAAs (the freakishly long frostgrave pirate arms for example look great on them), so I know what I'm getting into...
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, good point. I've done a bunch of converting with the old MAAs (the freakishly long frostgrave pirate arms for example look great on them), so I know what I'm getting into...
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, good point. I've done a bunch of converting with the old MAAs (the freakishly long frostgrave pirate arms for example look great on them), so I know what I'm getting into...
has anyone converted the old MAA with GCPs arms?
You mean the Mantic sci fi troops? Yes. I'll try to find them this weekend.
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, good point. I've done a bunch of converting with the old MAAs (the freakishly long frostgrave pirate arms for example look great on them), so I know what I'm getting into...
has anyone converted the old MAA with GCPs arms?
You mean the Mantic sci fi troops? Yes. I'll try to find them this weekend.
yes. if you could snap a photo that would be lovely.
I thought for $30 not a bad price, but what Mantic sold me is the worst thing I've ever seen. The browns and greens have a neon pink hue to them and the resolution is quite bad. Paper mat looks 10x better.
The deluxe mat is basically unusable. Just me or did anyone else notice the same with their deluxe mat?
NTRabbit wrote: I didn't back for the mat, sorry to hear yours came out badly
Yeah maybe mine is just some horrible misprint and the rest are fine. I'll try to get some pics.
Here is a pic you can kinda see it. All of the grey and a lot of the browns are neon pink on the whole mat. It's actually much worse in person; camera doesn't pick up how bad it is...
Anyone else experience this? Just want to know if I got a misprint, or if this is just the product Mantic is selling.
I was gonna say it's just garbage, but I'm thinking now that maybe I could use it to represent the land where the nightstalkers came from or something. I haven't read the lore yet.
Paper is on the left and looks nice. Deluxe mat is on the right.
Kow/Vanguared seminar stream kept crashing so I gave up but nothing really mentioned that wasn't covered 2 weeks ago.
Next KS is likely to be Terraincrate 2 which will cover the rest of the fantasy/D&D stuff they want to do and some modern as well.
Mentioned as themes
- Gothic style house
- Graveyard
- Village
- Ruins
- Campsites
- Shopping Mall
Scatter type terrain rather buildings.
They have plans for up to 8 HIPS units but aren't sure if they will do them 1 at a time or do a KS for all of them in one go but it would be a purely HIPS KS nothing else (those at the seminar favoured the KS as do I )
Sucks about your mat domobomb, it kinda looks like one of the colour tanks ran out during printing so the rocks ended up pink, rather than whatever they mixed with/over it to make the grey stones.
Grays going purple is a common issue with mousepad mats, I've seen it happen to all manufacturers. No idea why. You should definitely complain about it tho.
angel_giraldez I love to work for @manticgames ☺️, they have great miniatures, I really enjoyed painting this miniatures but the color was very difficult...but finally I think the result is good ☺️#angelgiraldez #manticgames #paintingminiatures #artesaniadegalicia #miniatures #horrormonster #painting
lord_blackfang wrote: Shadow Hulk would look legit if he weren't wrapped in rags. That paintjob is tight.
It actually looks a bit better than anticipated, and I don't think all of that is Angel's dark magicks. It's impressively tall, and makes me wonder if the shulk is getting an updated profile, given that I think we're getting new rules for the uber-giant. IMO the shulk has pretty great stats already, but I can't imagine the nu-giant won't be markedly better, for being so much bigger. Also I'm feeling like my two own two shulks in the making are far too small now
Nice to see all the NS stuff painted and in one place, the line is coming together nicely. Well done Mantic.
But it would become a giant, while the head and spiky bits get attached to something else. (The Shadow Hulk dragon mock up looked a lot better than the Shadow Hulk itself.)
Seeing it painted up they should have gone more with a route showing it to be a giant mutated or possessed in some way so the clothing doesn't look stupidly out of place.
But it would become a giant, while the head and spiky bits get attached to something else. (The Shadow Hulk dragon mock up looked a lot better than the Shadow Hulk itself.)
Great giant, but not a good fit for the role.
The Auld Grump
I think the Giant is a really nice kit...but...the conversion, knowing how its made just makes me think "Oh that's a Giant with a fish hat..."
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, good point. I've done a bunch of converting with the old MAAs (the freakishly long frostgrave pirate arms for example look great on them), so I know what I'm getting into...
has anyone converted the old MAA with GCPs arms?
You mean the Mantic sci fi troops? Yes. I'll try to find them this weekend.
yes. if you could snap a photo that would be lovely.
I finally found them! I'll throw in some other minis for scale, such as a regular GCPS, a Star Saga GCPS, a Heresylab commissar, and some PDF converted from GCPS and WGF WWII USSR.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some more doods.
No, she is from Heresy Lab. They had a recent Kickstarter to reprint her and a number of other not-40k and not-Star Wars heroines. They probably have a late pledge option, and if not you could try emailing them to buy them directly.
*Grumble, grumble, gripe* Our Vanguard/Kings of War League has been pushed back until after the holidays....
It seems that people are expecting to get minis from Santa this year.... (So far three have 'hired'/'asked'/'extorted' me to paint leaders for their significant others.... Dwarf, Abyssal Dwarf,and Basilean. The Abyssal Dwarf is for the Junior League.)
Just as well - it gives Megan and I a chance to get a few more practice games in.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* The Abyssal Dwarfs were also used in her Pathfinder campaign, as duergar. She is being raised properly - and finding multiple uses for her minis. Sam may be only ten years old, but she really knows where her towel is.
tomorrow we'll be updating the free downloadable Vanguard warband lists with some NEW units! Here's a sneak peek of the Trident Realm list and make sure you sign up here http://eepurl.com/GttR
The Warband Creation Guide has been updated, the news units in it are:
Dwarfs – Battle Driller
Elves – Silverbreeze Gladewarden and Sea Guard
Forces of Nature – Gladewalker Druid and Fire Elemental
Ogres – Ogre Sergeant and Hunter
The Trident Realm – Giga and Riverguard Sentinel
Abyssal Dwarfs – Iron-caster and Immortal Guard
Empire of Dust – Mummy and High Priest
Orcs – Skulk and Krusher
Undead – Skeleton Archer and Vampire Bat Swarm
New lists for yet to be represented factions coming in December, new minis for Goblins coming "next year"
For that price you take them just for the bits.
Heads, Weapons and Bases are good enough for conversions of anything (if you have some Core Box Sigmarines and want to replace Hammers with Swords, it will never be that cheap again)
There were really only one or two good heads for every five MaA. The swords and spears might be worth the price, though. And if you have a bunch of sci if arms waiting for some cool "timeless" bodies to convert into troops, you could do a lot worse than the old MaA. I already have scores of them left, or I'd be thinking pretty hard about this deal.
Always heard they were horrible but what is actually the problem with them? Its a pretty good price and if they are not too horrific to work with I could see some uses.
ingtaer wrote: Always heard they were horrible but what is actually the problem with them? Its a pretty good price and if they are not too horrific to work with I could see some uses.
All but two of the heads look really bad, like muppety bad. The arms are all over the place in length, but pretty much all too long to some degree. They have Lego hands. The arm poses are very stiff and limited. The details on the arms and bodies are soft or blurry in places where the digital sculpts likely had undercuts. The sides of the bodies where the arms attach are lumpy and need to be filed or cut flat, and the shoulder straps removed. There was a thread on Dakka when they came out about how much work it would take to make them look good as intended.
Cheers for that Bob, feth that idea then, looks way to much work to get any sort of half decent result. Guess I am going to have to spend the money on some more orcs instead.
Highlord, my instincts tell me that much haste will not be necessary when buying from a Mantic Black Friday. Don't they usually extend the sale for days and then weeks?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Highlord, my instincts tell me that much haste will not be necessary when buying from a Mantic Black Friday. Don't they usually extend the sale for days and then weeks?
I would have thought so, but now that I am at home and wanted to order the Man at Arms deal it has already disappeared
Sarouan wrote: Bah, what's the point of buying huge amounts of crappy miniatures, that you will never build or paint completely anyway ?
I need about 40 Swords and 20 Spears for conversion of AoW Dwarfs and GW Empire models.
Looked on 3rd party products and bits sellers, the cheapest I found are for 0.8€ per sword/spear, which means if I buy the Mantic bundle take the weapons and throw everything else in the bin, it is still cheaper. And the weapons are actually better looking than most 3rd party resin bits (the good looking ones are much more expensive)
I need about 40 Swords and 20 Spears for conversion of AoW Dwarfs and GW Empire models.
Looked on 3rd party products and bits sellers, the cheapest I found are for 0.8€ per sword/spear, which means if I buy the Mantic bundle take the weapons and throw everything else in the bin, it is still cheaper. And the weapons are actually better looking than most 3rd party resin bits (the good looking ones are much more expensive)
You'll find your pleasure elsewhere. Look at historical kits, they're a better value for what you're looking for.
I need about 40 Swords and 20 Spears for conversion of AoW Dwarfs and GW Empire models.
Looked on 3rd party products and bits sellers, the cheapest I found are for 0.8€ per sword/spear, which means if I buy the Mantic bundle take the weapons and throw everything else in the bin, it is still cheaper. And the weapons are actually better looking than most 3rd party resin bits (the good looking ones are much more expensive)
You'll find your pleasure elsewhere. Look at historical kits, they're a better value for what you're looking for.
that is completely and shamefully untrue. I have dozens of kits from the Perrys, WGF, Fireforge, Gripping Beast, Immortal, Warlord, and maybe Conquest (the guys who made the Normans, not the Jim Hensen looking fantasy), and all of their weapons are dinky and uninspiring. If you want great, heroic-scaled fantasy swords and spears in plastic, you either buy them from Mantic (MaA, Salamanders, Abyssals to a lesser extent), Shieldwolf (not a big selection so far, but hopefully soon), Reaper (they have ABS? Weapon sprues from last Kickstarter that are seriously cool but hard to find) or Kingdom Death. Mantic's MaA swords are among the best and also really affordable. I'd much prefer to use a Mantic Weapon on a Gripping Beast mini than vice versa--one looks like a hero with a legendary weapon and the other looks like the schlub with the letter opener at medieval times.
Sarouan wrote: Bah, what's the point of buying huge amounts of crappy miniatures, that you will never build or paint completely anyway ?
That's the problem with mantic fanbase. They're conditionned to see value in crap.
Better wait next year, then maybe Black Friday will see the new Men-At-Arms at interesting prices. Now those would be much more acceptable.
That is a whole lot of false assumptions in one short post.
Do I build and paint the Mantic models completely? Yes. So, you are, at the least, wrong.
Are those models all crappy? Less so than a lot of recent GW. More so than a lot of older GW. (I do not like the overly ornate computer generated GW crap - and a lot of what GW is releasing is exactly that - with enough exceptions that I keep looking. I like the GW plastic minis from about ten years ago or so.)
The Men at Arms are, in point of fact, pretty awful - but for large blocks of troops - which is, also in point of fact, what Kings of War is all about - they do the job, especially in the middle of a formation. Just like model railroading, you do not need to spend vast amounts of effort on models that will not be seeing a lot of focus.
And the weapons, on their own, are fine - 90% of the problems are with the human figures themselves.
That Mantic saw fit to blow out the older, admittedly crappy, MaA models at a discount is fully understandable.
That folks see value in having bulk troops for a game that is about bulk troops is equally understandable.
Not being able to see the value says more about the observer than of the people making the purchase.
Bad as they are, they're still better than the miniatures I started with, back in the seventies. Compared to those ancient Minifigs, the MaA are stellar.... Miniature modeling has come a long, long way.
The Auld Grump - plus, I give Mantic points for the use of the word 'Century' for the bundle.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, they're completely out of the MaA bundles, right? I don't see them.
At 40 cents per model, not a huge surprise. The page with the bundle is likewise gone - they did not just remove the link.
The Forgefather Valkyr are also out of stock, so... I am in for the Tunneler and the Raptors - the tunneler will see use in a steampunk game, rather than their SF game, while the raptors will be finding a good home with an ork player that I know....
I am kinda miffed about missing the Valkyr... I picture dwarf bikes roaring along to Ride of the Valkyries.
Also bothered by the lack of a Fantasy Crazy Box this year - I am a sucker for grab bags, and my wife has slightly different tastes, so arguing over who gets what is kinda fun.
The Auld Grump - rounding out the order with more zeds - I can always find room for more zeds.
Bad as they are, they're still better than the miniatures I started with, back in the seventies. Compared to those ancient Minifigs, the MaA are stellar.... Miniature modeling has come a long, long way.
This is why I say mantic fanbase is conditionned to see value in crap. You do know we are in 2018, not in the seventies anymore - comparing quality to a time that is gone and behind us is completely dishonest in itself, and you are aware of it.
Mantic can do much better, but they keep doing it cheap because they know their customers are used to this cheapness. And they will defend them for doing so, like we can all see here on this topic. It's really a snake biting its own tail.
But sure, you can always find a justification throwing some money at old Men-At-Arms. That will never make them good for what the market is offering right now - same for mantic elves, TBH.
Sarouan wrote: [
Mantic can do much better, but they keep doing it cheap because
Because this is their business model. There is still an "affordable wargaming" advertising and no there are enough Premium SciFi and Fantasy companies out there, no need for another one.
And while the GW Fanbase still argues that even the last model in a regiment of 40 that is only stays 5 minutes on the table need to be a premium model worth the 10€ that they paid for, others will say that having the same premium models 20 times in one unit because there are just 2 different ones in the box (except for some lesser details that cannot be noticed in a unit of 40) is not worth the price
Bad as they are, they're still better than the miniatures I started with, back in the seventies. Compared to those ancient Minifigs, the MaA are stellar.... Miniature modeling has come a long, long way.
This is why I say mantic fanbase is conditionned to see value in crap. You do know we are in 2018, not in the seventies anymore - comparing quality to a time that is gone and behind us is completely dishonest in itself, and you are aware of it.
Mantic can do much better, but they keep doing it cheap because they know their customers are used to this cheapness. And they will defend them for doing so, like we can all see here on this topic. It's really a snake biting its own tail.
But sure, you can always find a justification throwing some money at old Men-At-Arms. That will never make them good for what the market is offering right now - same for mantic elves, TBH.
You do know that there are people that see more value in ten figs for twenty quid than in one figure for twenty quid, right?
Mind you - I also say that the Mantic figures are often better than that twenty quid GW figure - even in the case of the Men at Arms, and not just for price. (Sorry, but a lot of the more recent GW figures look like dung to me. Overly ornate, awkwardly posed, unrealistic, fragile, and being not worth the price is just the icing on the cake.)
I would take the bad MaA figures over the awful Sigmarines.
Is now a bad time to mention how much I enjoy the Proxie Models troops?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have to disagree with Sir Grump on one thing, though: if I had to choose between 100 MaA for $40 and 100 Sigmarines for $40, I'd go Sigmarine every time. I paid a lot more per Sigmarine for the ones I already own...
Some day I want to go shopping with Souran just so I can watch him recoil with disgust for the Kroger brand. "Kirkland's signature is the ink of fools!"
kodos wrote: 100 Multipart Sigmarines for a good price would also be worth it just for the Bits
100 of the new Core Box Models, not so much
Also, I have to admit to fibbing a bit - if I were still playing 40K then the Sigmarines would seem a lot more attractive - in my opinion they work better for 40K than for a fantasy game. (A friend has a bunch painted up for Blood Angels - I had forgotten about them. He made them look very nice, and swapped out a lot of weapons.)
But for my current needs, I would take a 100 of the MaA over 100 of the Sigmarines.
I am a big block wargamer at heart - and a century of MaA work fine for the core of a big block o' infantry.
Not that it matters - they had sold out long before I could get my mitts on them.
The KoWRPG was just announced, it's going to be written by Red Scar Publishing using the Modiphius 2d20 system
Dragonmeet is go! And we can now reveal our amazing news.
Red Scar are very pleased to announce that we are partnering up with Mantic Games to produce Kings of War the Roleplaying Game!
More information will flow from Mantic Games and ourselves as the project takes shape over the coming months, so please sign up to our mailing lists to ensure you don't miss out. Our first tidbit, however, is that we are keen to ensure that the roleplaying game fully integrates with the Kings of War range, which will allow you to take your RPG character through the dungeons of Dungeon Saga, the skirmish of Vanguard and the mass battles of Kings of War if you so dare!
NTRabbit wrote: The KoWRPG was just announced, it's going to be written by Red Scar Publishing using the Modiphius 2d20 system
Spoiler:
Dragonmeet is go! And we can now reveal our amazing news.
Red Scar are very pleased to announce that we are partnering up with Mantic Games to produce Kings of War the Roleplaying Game!
More information will flow from Mantic Games and ourselves as the project takes shape over the coming months, so please sign up to our mailing lists to ensure you don't miss out. Our first tidbit, however, is that we are keen to ensure that the roleplaying game fully integrates with the Kings of War range, which will allow you to take your RPG character through the dungeons of Dungeon Saga, the skirmish of Vanguard and the mass battles of Kings of War if you so dare!
Interesting.
I hope it has the same simple to learn but depth from how the game works and ither players that make KoW and Vanguard so good (and recognisably Mantic games).
Hmmm. I'd honestly rather see a rewrite of Dungeon Saga or a Dungeon Saga 2.0 before a roleplaying game, but hopefully we'll get a more robust foundation of fluff for Mantica out of it.
That's interesting, I own and have read the Conan RPG book and I think the system looks great! Mechanically I like it and I thought they did a good job of capturing the feel of Hyboria. I'm interested to see what this looks like!
To be honest, any generic RPG can work with Mantic's world, since it's so generic itself.
But it's true it's the last piece of the puzzle in KoW's setting - we have a skirmish game, a massive battle game, a dungeon crawler game...the RPG is gonna use all this material all the better, for sure. It's also an opportunity to truly dig the background and give life to the people inhabiting Mantica. To me, more than the rules themselves, that's what this can really bring for KoW in its whole. I expect some scenarios and stuff....okay, I'm more hoping than anything.
But it's true it's the last piece of the puzzle in KoW's setting - we have a skirmish game, a massive battle game, a dungeon crawler game...the RPG is gonna use all this material all the better, for sure. It's also an opportunity to truly dig the background and give life to the people inhabiting Mantica. To me, more than the rules themselves, that's what this can really bring for KoW in its whole.
On this we agree. I also look forward to the CL Werner novel and the next Adventure Game Book. They should do wonders to give Mantica more of an identity.
Why?
They have quite a bit of Fluff in the different Rulebooks already. Had two major narrative Campaigns(Destiny of Kings, Edge of Abyss) and a minor one (Hellfire and Stone).
2 Books (Bloodstone of Cerillion /Eye of the Abyss) with more in the pipeline. a "choose your own adventure"-Gamebook, another one coming.
Tons of Artwork through Dungeonsaga. It's (insane how many RPG-worthy-Illustration they have on the cards for items,Skills and locations which are basicly unused.
Tons of Fanfiction(look at the ironwatch), even though that is no asset a developer would use directly. The ideas and Inspirations are still there.
Specialist-writers on hand: just look at the Warpath Scourcebook as an example.
What else is needed?
I m no RPG guy myself but a fluffmonkey. A Scourcebook/RPG-Worldbook for Mantica would be very much apreciated by me.
PS: I wonder if the city overview of the golden horn in the vangaurd rulebook was/is meant for the RPG. That is definitly a new Artwork and wasn t really necessary in the book...
daisuke serizawa wrote: Why?
They have quite a bit of Fluff in the different Rulebooks already. Had two major narrative Campaigns(Destiny of Kings, Edge of Abyss) and a minor one (Hellfire and Stone).
2 Books (Bloodstone of Cerillion /Eye of the Abyss) with more in the pipeline. a "choose your own adventure"-Gamebook, another one coming.
Tons of Artwork through Dungeonsaga. It's (insane how many RPG-worthy-Illustration they have on the cards for items,Skills and locations which are basicly unused.
Tons of Fanfiction(look at the ironwatch), even though that is no asset a developer would use directly. The ideas and Inspirations are still there.
Specialist-writers on hand: just look at the Warpath Scourcebook as an example.
What else is needed?
A sourcebook like the one in Warpath would be nice. We have started to see some smattering of KoW fluff as you mentioned, but the setting is still quite generic and I would have no idea how to DM a game in Mantica without freestyling heavily. In my mind you establish the setting, then you release your rpg.
This is some advance warning that these forums will be closing shortly. The last day will be the 17th December 2018. We have noticed over the past couple of years that traffic on the forum and regular users have both decreased. As a result we’ve taken the difficult decision to close the forums. We’ll still be able to answer rules questions via social media and we’ll produce articles on the Mantic Blog too.
Many thanks to all of you for your contributions and conversations on the pages here. Special thanks are extended to the moderators who have kept things ticking over for us in the background.
If there is any content you wish to keep, please download and save it before the final closing date.
Just in case anybody uses them occasionally and hasn't noticed (like me) the Mantic Forums are set to close permanently on 17th December
although if they hadn't had a long period when you couldn't get access to them because of various software issues and host changes I wouldn't have got out of the habit of doing so
Yeah that long forum down time killed them dead, everyone who had been using the forums temporarily shifted to facebook groups, and then stayed there permanently
although if they hadn't had a long period when you couldn't get access to them because of various software issues and host changes I wouldn't have got out of the habit of doing so
Very, very much this.
It both didn't consider me registered and wouldn't let me register because I was already registered....
NTRabbit wrote: Yeah that long forum down time killed them dead, everyone who had been using the forums temporarily shifted to facebook groups, and then stayed there permanently
And the guys from Mantic themselves did not bother to respond or post on the forum, driving away those that were left.
So for everyone who doesn't want to use Facebook, Mantic community interaction is dead by now
PS: and there are people who actively try to kill Mantic related social media communities outside of FB, making the closing of the official forum a lot worse for non FB people as it seems
The Conan 2d20 RPG has three big flaws. The first is that armor in combat doesn't work. At best it can stop 4 pts. of damage (not counting shield soak dice). Players can easily make a character that puts out 13 pts of damage and pierces 4 pts of armor. That murders most things in game. Second, Magic is not well defined at all. The momentum needed to cast a spell that does damage equal to a melee attack is far more, and the difficulty level will be d4-d5. Why would anyone learn magic when it is so inferior? Finally, there are no lists of magic items and very little you can buy, so one of the prime motivations of dungeon delving is missing. On the plus side, the way you learn skills and create characters in pretty cool. I think it needs a rewrite with a more clearly defined magic system, a section on magic items and cool things to spend your money on, and a rework of the combat rules so armor is a factor. Maybe they will have that in the KOWRPG and I can just import it to my Conan games.
Smellingsalts wrote: The Conan 2d20 RPG has three big flaws. The first is that armor in combat doesn't work. At best it can stop 4 pts. of damage (not counting shield soak dice). Players can easily make a character that puts out 13 pts of damage and pierces 4 pts of armor. That murders most things in game. Second, Magic is not well defined at all. The momentum needed to cast a spell that does damage equal to a melee attack is far more, and the difficulty level will be d4-d5. Why would anyone learn magic when it is so inferior? Finally, there are no lists of magic items and very little you can buy, so one of the prime motivations of dungeon delving is missing. On the plus side, the way you learn skills and create characters in pretty cool. I think it needs a rewrite with a more clearly defined magic system, a section on magic items and cool things to spend your money on, and a rework of the combat rules so armor is a factor. Maybe they will have that in the KOWRPG and I can just import it to my Conan games.
Magic items in REH Conan were almost nonexistent. What appeared, and rarely, were (in D&D terms) "artifacts", which were powerful, but narrowly focused. The Heart of Ahriman from The Hour of the Dragon is one such.
As for otherworldly creatures, the usual rule was that if it manifested in the Hyborian world, it could be killed by physical means. Conan might have to go out of his way to fulfill the conditions (once he had to hurl a lighted silver chandlier to meet the "silver and fire" requirement, trapping the demon underneath), but they could be killed. REH was not always consistent: in The Phoenix on the Sword the aforementioned engraved Phoenix was needed to kill the demon, which had been placed there magically just before the assassination attempt.
Mysterio wrote: It's been a while since I've read the REH Conan stories, but I don't remember there being a lot of magic items about.
And most otherworldly creatures didn't need magic items it order to be battled/harmed?
Smellingsalts wrote: The Conan 2d20 RPG has three big flaws. The first is that armor in combat doesn't work. At best it can stop 4 pts. of damage (not counting shield soak dice). Players can easily make a character that puts out 13 pts of damage and pierces 4 pts of armor. That murders most things in game. Second, Magic is not well defined at all. The momentum needed to cast a spell that does damage equal to a melee attack is far more, and the difficulty level will be d4-d5. Why would anyone learn magic when it is so inferior? Finally, there are no lists of magic items and very little you can buy, so one of the prime motivations of dungeon delving is missing. On the plus side, the way you learn skills and create characters in pretty cool. I think it needs a rewrite with a more clearly defined magic system, a section on magic items and cool things to spend your money on, and a rework of the combat rules so armor is a factor. Maybe they will have that in the KOWRPG and I can just import it to my Conan games.
1) This is intentional. The designers wanted combat to be quick and deadly. Infinity, which uses the same base 2d20, has it's damage scaled back. Add 13 is the low end of player damage hit easily. My group was in the high teens with several in the 20's without much effort. It real flaw was you couldn't really make a tough single enemy boss fight without really playing around but even D&D has long been plagued by that. Armor is more for the players while the NPC stats to protected against a crappy role and to give you info on what armor players can scavenge since a core mechanic is players sacrificing armor to prevent life loss penalties.
2) Magic can be very powerful, but in terms of straight damage it was the middle road. You don't need to kill people to take out a group. I will agree the rules aren't written the clearest which is why Modiphius put out a spell casting FAQ based off of the most common questions. That cleared up a lot of confusion. But the magic system for Conan was unique to conan and not intended for an SRD (which I know they're working on and hopefully release) as each setting they have the tailor it to feel like the source (just like damage in infinity).
3) This was address by others. Conan is a Sword and Sorcery setting. Low magic. And the most basic of a D&D magic item would be crazy rare and worth a fortune. Again this is setting specific and not core to 2d20.
although if they hadn't had a long period when you couldn't get access to them because of various software issues and host changes I wouldn't have got out of the habit of doing so
Yep. I started using them (or trying to) just as they became a total mess due to software issues and whatnot. Then they went down and I never went back.
Smellingsalts wrote: The Conan 2d20 RPG has three big flaws. The first is that armor in combat doesn't work. At best it can stop 4 pts. of damage (not counting shield soak dice). Players can easily make a character that puts out 13 pts of damage and pierces 4 pts of armor. That murders most things in game. Second, Magic is not well defined at all. The momentum needed to cast a spell that does damage equal to a melee attack is far more, and the difficulty level will be d4-d5. Why would anyone learn magic when it is so inferior? Finally, there are no lists of magic items and very little you can buy, so one of the prime motivations of dungeon delving is missing. On the plus side, the way you learn skills and create characters in pretty cool. I think it needs a rewrite with a more clearly defined magic system, a section on magic items and cool things to spend your money on, and a rework of the combat rules so armor is a factor. Maybe they will have that in the KOWRPG and I can just import it to my Conan games.
1) This is intentional. The designers wanted combat to be quick and deadly. Infinity, which uses the same base 2d20, has it's damage scaled back. Add 13 is the low end of player damage hit easily. My group was in the high teens with several in the 20's without much effort. It real flaw was you couldn't really make a tough single enemy boss fight without really playing around but even D&D has long been plagued by that. Armor is more for the players while the NPC stats to protected against a crappy role and to give you info on what armor players can scavenge since a core mechanic is players sacrificing armor to prevent life loss penalties.
2) Magic can be very powerful, but in terms of straight damage it was the middle road. You don't need to kill people to take out a group. I will agree the rules aren't written the clearest which is why Modiphius put out a spell casting FAQ based off of the most common questions. That cleared up a lot of confusion. But the magic system for Conan was unique to conan and not intended for an SRD (which I know they're working on and hopefully release) as each setting they have the tailor it to feel like the source (just like damage in infinity).
3) This was address by others. Conan is a Sword and Sorcery setting. Low magic. And the most basic of a D&D magic item would be crazy rare and worth a fortune. Again this is setting specific and not core to 2d20.
Honestly, I had more fun with the Mongoose D20 version.
But then I was focusing on some of the mass combat for the campaign that I was running in D20, not just the minor in character conflicts. Mongoose had a fairly nifty mass combat system for the game that was D20 compatible.
Armor in the 2D20 system version... sorry, the crappy armor system might have been intentional - but it was still crappy. You can be fun, or you can be realistic - it managed to be neither. It felt more like a punishment for player characters that wanted to wear armor than a reward for unarmored characters.
BUT - the reason I went in on the KS was that it included the Mongoose version and its supplements as well - while I do not much like the new system, I cannot argue that they did not give value for money. So, the company is still getting a thumbs up from me.
*EDIT* I will admit that the mental image of Conan doing battle with Mantic's new giant is entertaining... and I would put money on the Cimmerian. (Problem is that so would everyone else... the only way the giant could win is if they both knew about the betting beforehand, and Conan throws the fight for the lion's share of the wagers....)
PS: and there are people who actively try to kill Mantic related social media communities outside of FB, making the closing of the official forum a lot worse for non FB people as it seems
Who, why and how?
Is it pro-Mantic trying to redirect, anti-Mantic being toxic or something else entirely?
Who, why and how?
Is it pro-Mantic trying to redirect, anti-Mantic being toxic or something else entirely?
Genuinely curious.
Pro Mantic trying to redirect
got told that the RC answered some rules questions on FB, aksed if they could copy&paste the answers over, was told to go to FB to look for myself, told them that I am not on FB the answer was that only pedophiles who are banned from FB are not using the Mantic FB groups and if I want the RC answers somewhere else I should do it on my own
Wow, as someone who is also not on Facebook and don't wish to be, I feel your pain, and I will also miss the official forums.
I wish that Mantic would at least keep a read only archive or similar, so much informations are on those forums that it will be a shame to see them disappear.
While forums may be going out of fashion, having a non-mobile friendly, really buggy and way to split up forum did mantic no favors in keeping it alive.
Someone on dakka should take note about the mobile friendly-ness
Gimgamgoo wrote: Will all the cards be sold in a separate pack? Or do we have to get all the figure packs just to get the rules?
Neither, unless you want the rules as soon as possible. The rules for all models of the four "properly" released warbands (abyssals, basileans, nightstalkers and northern alliance) are already up on easy army, so my guess would be that the rules for all of the dwarf warband models will be accesible for free sometime in march 2019.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Will all the cards be sold in a separate pack? Or do we have to get all the figure packs just to get the rules?
Neither, unless you want the rules as soon as possible. The rules for all models of the four "properly" released warbands (abyssals, basileans, nightstalkers and northern alliance) are already up on easy army, so my guess would be that the rules for all of the dwarf warband models will be accesible for free sometime in march 2019.
I have those 4 sets of cards from the KS. However, I'm one of those strange players that likes to own all the rules for the games I play - but not always every single figure.
I spent $300+ on the Vanguard kickstarter. I'm happy to buy rules addons or buy card packs, but I don't always want to buy loads more figures - especially if I bought them already.
I don't expect FREE. I'll happily buy rules books, pdfs or cards.
Ronnie’s here with an update about everything that’s going on in the world of Vanguard…
Well, it’s very safe to say that Vanguard was one of our most successful game launches ever. Since the Kickstarter shipped and the game hit stores in October, we’ve seen plenty of faction photographs, battle reports and painting tutorials pop up online – which is great. Plus, popular YouTube channels like BlackJackLegacy, Weight of Fire and Guerrilla Miniature Gaming with Ash Barker have all jumped on board the Vanguard hype train – and there is a host of events already scheduled in and filling up fast.
In fact, the game has been so popular that we’re just about sold out of the first print run of the rulebook – so if you want to get one before January (when the 2nd printing arrives), you’ll need to grab one quick!
However, all this is only just the beginning of the Vanguard journey. Over the coming weeks and months we’ve got plenty of awesome Vanguard coverage and releases planned to keep the games fresh and ever evolving.
WHAT’S HAPPENING NEXT?
Dwarf Faction Launch – these are some of the most amazing Dwarf minis we’ve ever produced as you can see below. Those people who were sensible enough to grab some during the Kickstarter have been drooling over them since they received them. Watch out for the faction going up for pre-order later this week, ahead of their official launch in January
Mercenaries – later this week you’ll be able to add the heroic Firebrand to your warband, or the powerful goblin wizard, Kuzlo, complete with his hungry mount, Madfall
Uncharted Empires starter warband lists – some of you insist on playing with miniatures that went OOP in 1973. Well everyone is welcome at house Mantic, so as part of our 12 Days of Christmas, we’ll be unleashing a free PDF download for the remaining factions from the Kings of War supplement, Uncharted Empires. Time to literally blow the dust off those minis
the rest of that post as it got cut for some reason
RMy Warband, My Story Wave 2 – these personal stories/tactics articles from Mantic staff were a popular addition to the launch, so we’re carrying them on as people swap and change factions. Rob started yesterday with his Trident Realm blog, which you can read here. Also, we’d love to see your factions and warbands coming together, so if you’d like to write your own, please just send it along to support@manticgames.com with some pictures and you’ll be WORLD FAMOUS on the Mantic blog and FB pages!
However, one of the big pieces of news today is that EasyArmy has now been updated with all the unit stats for the currently available warbands. That includes:
Forces of the Abyss – basic list, warband starter cards and booster cards
Nightstalkers – basic list, warband starter cards and booster cards
Basileans – basic list, warband starter cards and booster cards
Northern Alliance – basic list, warband starter cards and booster cards
Dwarfs – basic list (plus extras) – and the new ones will be added after their full release too
Elves – basic list (plus extras)
Forces of Nature – basic list (plus extras)
Ogres – basic list (plus extras)
The Trident Realm – basic list (plus extras)
Abyssal Dwarfs – basic list (plus extras)
Empire of Dust – basic list (plus extras)
Goblins – basic list (plus extras)
Orcs – basic list (plus extras)
Undead – basic list (plus extras)
WHY ARE WE USING EASYARMY?
In the core rulebook – and the PDF download – you receive starter warband lists for each faction. In fact, in the rulebook there are 121 units spread across the different factions (and we’ve recently added extra units to the downloadable PDF). This gives all the factions a fair and even starting point when you first collect and play the game.
Then, to keep the game growing and developing, when we launch a faction at retail (such as the Forces of the Abyss, Nightstalkers, Basileans and Northern Alliance) it allows us to go to each new range and add some incredible new miniatures – which will often be entirely new unit choices (such as the awesome Palace Guard – Ogres in Plate Mail – yes please!!!), or hero style figures – which make great models for your KoW army too. These not only give us new models for you to gaze longingly at, but also the chance to try new options to add to KoW armies.
And aside from making cool new models, this is an opportunity to ensure the game remains balanced and fun for players, as the additional Warband entries help change up the meta or address any weaknesses – and each army gets its own focus and each entry can be carefully considered – impossible if you try and do it for 20 entries for 15 + armies all at once! For example, if it becomes clear that Trident Realm needs a cheaper grunt option (as Rob keeps moaning about to Matt Gilbert… but then again, he is a cheating scoundrel), then during the retail launch we can add something to the list to mix things up a bit.
This all keeps Vanguard fresh as everyone gets new factions – both models and rules – to either dive into or play against.
IT’S ALL PART OF THE PLAN…
In the retail release these new units come in the form of warband cards. These cards are handy references that can be placed on the table during play – or you can make a note of the stats on the warband roster sheet (available to download here). Warband cards are planned at the moment as a faction gets a full retail release. So, the Dwarfs will be next in 2019, followed by the goblins and so on.
Of course, we’re aware that many Kings of War players and Mantic fans in general may have some miniatures that are represented by the cards. You may even have some miniatures that AREN’T made by Mantic *faints in horror*. And that’s exactly why we’re officially working with Gregg over at EasyArmy to ensure that new units are consistently added to EasyArmy too. This way you can browse new units online to see what the competition may have up their sleeve, or plan your latest foe-crushing list. Once you’ve finished your list, you can save it as a PDF and it’ll look like the below (almost identical to the warband cards) – and we have already added 2 new units/heroes to all the original factions. These will be scooped up at some point into a book, alongside lots more new scenarios and a few other surprises
Automatically Appended Next Post: and part 3
In fact this is very similar to how we keep KoW fresh with the Clash of Kings book – currently the 2019 available at all good gaming stores and online at www.manticgames.com <end plug>
By working with EasyArmy as an official partner, it means that the rules and unit stats will continue to be available to browse online or download as a warband stat sheet, and we will be constantly updating and developing the game – in a format available to ALL for free!!
So, if you can somehow resist not buying those wonderful new miniatures (such willpower – they really are some of our best-ever fantasy minis) you can still access all the up to date information online any time and completely free. And, as mentioned, by continuing to have full faction releases every couple of months, it ensures we will keep Vanguard fresh throughout 2019 and for many years to come. In summary then:
Hardback rulebook – full rules, 12 scenarios, full equipment lists, campaign rules, full spell lists and intro warband lists
Downloadable PDF – intro rules, warband lists
Retail faction launches – incredible new miniatures and new units via warband cards
EasyArmy – complete warband lists (including those introduced in the faction sets), available to browse whenever you want, then print off or save warband lists at your leisure
Enjoy your gaming and hopefully see you at a Vanguard event soon.
Sure, it was all part of the plan. That's why they waited so much before finally announcing that.
Anyway, only the ones not having constant access to internet will be the ones fethed indeed. But they are not to be taken into account, so all praise Mantic, because Mantic can never make mistakes - that's only GW's field. Am I right here ?
Nice customer friendly attitude. I like that they want to compete for my money with improved miniatures and good games instead of going for excluding options.
Sarouan, are you seriously blaiming Mantic for bad internet access? You just look ridiculous trying to stir up something after mantic has just delivered a very customer friendly statement.
Note that I am no Mantic fanboy, I think lots of their minis are terrible.
Illumini wrote: Nice customer friendly attitude. I like that they want to compete for my money with improved miniatures and good games instead of going for excluding options.
Sarouan, are you seriously blaiming Mantic for bad internet access? You just look ridiculous trying to stir up something after mantic has just delivered a very customer friendly statement.
Note that I am no Mantic fanboy, I think lots of their minis are terrible.
Of course not, I'm not blaming them. You can never blame Mantic for what they are doing, because they always are friendly towards their customers, they're the good guys.
Sure, if they wrote it all in the book day one, they would nothing to fix with easyarmy, but that's preposterousl. Now they fixed something they cause themselves because of their first choices, so yes thanks to Mantic for that gift ! Obviously, it's the fault of customers if they don't want/can't use easyarmy, instead of a book they have bought with their money to support Mantic on, said, a Kickstarter, when it wasn't known at that time Mantic would have done that in the end. After all, there is nothing to complain about, right ?
Uncharted Empires starter warband lists – some of you insist on playing with miniatures that went OOP in 1973. Well everyone is welcome at house Mantic, so as part of our 12 Days of Christmas, we’ll be unleashing a free PDF download for the remaining factions from the Kings of War supplement, Uncharted Empires. Time to literally blow the dust off those minis
Kinda snarky considering what some of their official minatures look like.
Uncharted Empires starter warband lists – some of you insist on playing with miniatures that went OOP in 1973. Well everyone is welcome at house Mantic, so as part of our 12 Days of Christmas, we’ll be unleashing a free PDF download for the remaining factions from the Kings of War supplement, Uncharted Empires. Time to literally blow the dust off those minis
Kinda snarky considering what some of their official minatures look like.
Light hearted bants, haven't you seen Ronnie on youtube interviews before?
Just got my VanguardNightsalker pledge this morning (I piggybacked off another backer - Australian shipping is a killer) and it looks awesome. So can't wait to get this game going.
Uncharted Empires starter warband lists – some of you insist on playing with miniatures that went OOP in 1973. Well everyone is welcome at house Mantic, so as part of our 12 Days of Christmas, we’ll be unleashing a free PDF download for the remaining factions from the Kings of War supplement, Uncharted Empires. Time to literally blow the dust off those minis
Kinda snarky considering what some of their official minatures look like.
Light hearted bants, haven't you seen Ronnie on youtube interviews before?
Definitely intended as jovial.
I always remember the seminar just after the Old World blew up, when he was announcing Uncharted and general Fantasy list support. It was so fun being in there and making light of a real sad point, kinda made it better ya know
Just played my first game last night, my friend's Goblins vs. my Elves. Holy smokes, the Elf Prince is a brute! (didn't hurt that he didn't have too many units with crushing strength - so my armor saves were quite obnoxious!)
The game is really fun! Taking a group activation with my Kindred Archers (two of 'em, adding a third would just be nuts) was also crazy - they got MVP for their precision bloodshed and surgical strike mayhem.
Cheap affordable gaming...?
I liked it when Mantic was.
For a full set of Dwarf warband cards, you need to spend £95 on figure packs.
This only gets you 18 figures. 10 of these are the old mantic plastic or metal.
So, 8 new 20mm base size resin models, 10 old models and the cards for £95.
Mantic are starting to make GW look like the cheaper option.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Cheap affordable gaming...?
I liked it when Mantic was.
For a full set of Dwarf warband cards, you need to spend £95 on figure packs.
This only gets you 18 figures. 10 of these are the old mantic plastic or metal.
So, 8 new 20mm base size resin models, 10 old models and the cards for £95.
Mantic are starting to make GW look like the cheaper option.
All the card info will be on easyarmy per the latest blog
Some people appearantly do not want free stats and rules over the internet, but purchaseable cards or army lists. If enough people are getting vocal about it, Mantic might print and sell seperate card sets.
I don´t see the point, as they will be outdated when things get rebalanced.
As much as I hated PP dropping cards from warmachine hordes and going with their app (which is great, but I like cards) with state of Malifaux and having to keep track of changes to models on cards which haven't changed since their release was a pain. I undersatnd what Mantic have done, but also that it may not sit well with everyone.
would be easy to solve if they just set up print on demand with a US and European company. If you want cards for $25 feel free to click and have a partner print them for you. Ya you might be doing that every 4-6 months but it's optional.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Cheap affordable gaming...?
I liked it when Mantic was.
For a full set of Dwarf warband cards, you need to spend £95 on figure packs.
This only gets you 18 figures. 10 of these are the old mantic plastic or metal.
So, 8 new 20mm base size resin models, 10 old models and the cards for £95.
Mantic are starting to make GW look like the cheaper option.
Exaggerate much? Do you need a full set to play the game?
Gimgamgoo wrote: Cheap affordable gaming...?
I liked it when Mantic was.
For a full set of Dwarf warband cards, you need to spend £95 on figure packs.
This only gets you 18 figures. 10 of these are the old mantic plastic or metal.
So, 8 new 20mm base size resin models, 10 old models and the cards for £95.
Mantic are starting to make GW look like the cheaper option.
Exaggerate much? Do you need a full set to play the game?
It is not exaggeration to want the full rules of your faction. His concern is valid - and yes, what Mantic Games asks for their Vanguard miniatures is significantly more expensive in comparison to what they have done before. We're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here for the same miniatures, let's be clear.
Of course there is a skirmish tax! Everybody does it and there may even be a reason besides greed behind it. The funny part of it is that these are still half the cost at what GW prices their heroes (i just checked 40k preorders over there to make sure).
There is no way for mantic to come out on top in this.
People want better material than pvc but don t want to pay resin prices. It's basicly either "Mantic is beeing cheap" or "This isn t affordable wargaming!".
Mantic simply has to choose how they want to be bashed and stand by their decission.
I just wish they would go back to pvc for their starters coming forward, but i think that is not an option now considering every release outside of Kickstarter(and Walking Dead) has been resin or metal.
I personally have no problem with pvc-cleaning. I really and unironically prefer Pvc. Both materials are not very fun to clean up and the brittleness of resin is way more problematic for me.
For the card-"problem": I wonder why Mantic didn t see that coming after 2 Editions of Deadzone.
Cards are just Trouble, especially if you don t print them in house. The DZ-community settled after they got rid of the cards in 2nd Edition.
If somebody wants cards just pdf or print easy army lists and slap a picture on it. Done! Or look for cards made by others(there are some undead cards flying around the inet for example). There are companies who will print these out on playingcards if you really want it...
Gimgamgoo wrote: Cheap affordable gaming...?
I liked it when Mantic was.
For a full set of Dwarf warband cards, you need to spend £95 on figure packs.
This only gets you 18 figures. 10 of these are the old mantic plastic or metal.
So, 8 new 20mm base size resin models, 10 old models and the cards for £95.
Mantic are starting to make GW look like the cheaper option.
Exaggerate much? Do you need a full set to play the game?
It is not exaggeration to want the full rules of your faction. His concern is valid - and yes, what Mantic Games asks for their Vanguard miniatures is significantly more expensive in comparison to what they have done before. We're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here for the same miniatures, let's be clear.
All the rules are free on EasyArmy. Having all the models and options for a faction is a luxury and far more than you need to play a game.
The miniatures are significantly nicer than the models from the KoW range too.
Doesn’t change the fact that Mantic is charging £95 for 18 figures. Gimgamgoo is right. And those figures are nowhere near as good as what GW (or various other companies) offers, we’re talking miles off. Mantic started as an alternative to the GW business model but now seems trying to scramble after GW’s famous theory that miniatures can never actually cost “enough” ... all while showing only very modest improvement in quality and to be honest basically no improvement in design.
Sarouan wrote: ...It is not exaggeration to want the full rules of your faction. His concern is valid - and yes, what Mantic Games asks for their Vanguard miniatures is significantly more expensive in comparison to what they have done before. We're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here for the same miniatures, let's be clear.
We have been over this a million times, but the full rules for all factions (except the dwarf models not available in retail yet) are on easy army now, accessible to all for free. And I don´t see a "significant" price increase, the Basilean and Nightstalker warbands feature all new models, the other two contain five old miniatures (a third of the warband), but feature two large/avalry models as well. "Skirmish tax"? Maybe, or maybe it is the other way around and you get a discount when buying army deals?
Manchu wrote: Doesn’t change the fact that Mantic is charging £95 for 18 figures. Gimgamgoo is right. And those figures are nowhere near as good as what GW (or various other companies) offers, we’re talking miles off. Mantic started as an alternative to the GW business model but now seems trying to scramble after GW’s famous theory that miniatures can never actually cost “enough” ... all while showing only very modest improvement in quality and to be honest basically no improvement in design.
Eight of these are character models made from resin. 8-12 £ for a character model made from metal or resin is pretty much what everybody charges, and what Mantic has charged for their character models so far. One just did not need that many for Kings of War. And as mentioned, you will not need these or any other Mantic models to play the dwarf warband in Vanguard with the full rules, you just have to wait for the upload of the stats accompanying the retail release. But is is certainly unfortunate that there will be no new hardplastic models at lower prices for the dwarfs in the near future, just resin and metal.
We have been over this a million times, but the full rules for all factions (except the dwarf models not available in retail yet) are on easy army now, accessible to all for free. And I don´t see a "significant" price increase, the Basilean and Nightstalker warbands feature all new models, the other two contain five old miniatures (a third of the warband), but feature two large/avalry models as well. "Skirmish tax"? Maybe, or maybe it is the other way around and you get a discount when buying army deals?
Like I said before, that doesn't change the fact they won't remake the book and force people to use easyarmies as only alternative. It was a choice they did in the first time, without telling their backers then, some of them told them they weren't glad, Mantic didn't bulge for some time then finally decided to "go back" and act like it was "always the plan". It's just communication to turn something intially bad into something good.
Of course, the fact they're "new models" doesn't justify in any way the rise in price. The reason they ask so much is because they hide behind the fact it's a Skirmish game and thus asks less miniatures to play - thus saying it's okay to sell them at this price because you don't need to buy many to play. That's what I call the "Skirmish Tax" - it's basically marketing bs.
Eight of these are character models made from resin. 8-12 £ for a character model made from metal or resin is pretty much what everybody charges, and what Mantic has charged for their character models so far. One just did not need that many for Kings of War. And as mentioned, you will not need these or any other Mantic models to play the dwarf warband in Vanguard with the full rules, you just have to wait for the upload of the stats accompanying the retail release. But is is certainly unfortunate that there will be no new hardplastic models at lower prices for the dwarfs in the near future, just resin and metal.
They're not characters, they're just skirmish models. One is a ranger, another is a shieldbreaker. You COULD use them as characters, but they're not sold as such.
And yes, our point is still valid. These prices are sensibly higher than what they charge for Kings of War and goes indeed against their motto so far. Still GW makes superior stuff with true plastic, and we can't say the value is really in favor of Mantic here.
You're trying to defend Mantic at all costs, like a good old fanboy here.
I did not follow the communication between the kickstarter backers and Mantic, therefore I have no way of knowing if what you say is true or a misunderstanding.
Bitching and whining about the rules being accessible for free online instead of being available for money in printed form (= outdated at the first rebalancing) just seems somewhat stupid to me.
And while some of the resin models might not be character models, they still cost as much to produce and are therefore more expensive. If it was a wise choice to make so many resin dwarfs instead of the three models the other warbands have is a different question.
You also pay more for single models and smaller contingents in larger scale wargames, literally EVERY company in this business does it that way.
It seems you want to complain at any cost, are you by any chance a troll?
These prices are sensibly higher than what they charge for Kings of War and goes indeed against their motto so far.
But we are talking about Vanguard and not KoW It is not against their Motto as Vangaurd is still affordable Wargaming in Skirmish size and you won't pay as much for a Vangaurd Warband as you do for other Skirmish sized games
If you are going to use those models to build regiments in KoW, of course this is expensive, but they are not meant to be for that.
Not selling Card Packs is still a mistake and I hope they will change this as they are selling Team Cards for Dreadball too and have KoW Artifact Cards
I was a KS backer, to the tune of $300+.
Looks like I'm going to have to spend £95 or so per extra faction just to get the rules for each faction. This sucks imo. I really wanted a Mantic model replacement for SoBH. I figure Vanguard isn't that game anymore.
I don't want free rules. I'm happy to pay for them.
Easy army is a waste of time and space for me. It will only let me play the exact game points value in the book. I can't play a smaller game using any models I want like I can with the cards.
All in all, I was happy with the game and the KS. Mantic's resins are really good. I'm just going to go elsewhere for games though as I can't access all the rules without a massive cost.
You are not the only one who wants to buy the cards without the models, if enough people ask about it, Mantic might offer them for sale seperately.
But I still don´t understand what the cards do that easy army does not? You can set point limits lower or higher than 200, in 25 point steps. And you do not have to set a point limit at all, it will still add up everything.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I was a KS backer, to the tune of $300+.
Looks like I'm going to have to spend £95 or so per extra faction just to get the rules for each faction. This sucks imo. I really wanted a Mantic model replacement for SoBH. I figure Vanguard isn't that game anymore.
I don't want free rules. I'm happy to pay for them.
Easy army is a waste of time and space for me. It will only let me play the exact game points value in the book. I can't play a smaller game using any models I want like I can with the cards.
All in all, I was happy with the game and the KS. Mantic's resins are really good. I'm just going to go elsewhere for games though as I can't access all the rules without a massive cost.
Consider giving easy army another look, I think it's excellent.
You could even create warbands just to print out a set of the cards - i.e., set the point value to the maximum, add one of each unit, print it, and cut out the cards. Now you have a complete set. They won't look quite as fancy as the purchased versions, but voila: a set of cards. And as soon as errata are released and plugged into Easy Army, your cards will be current. My fancy-pants printed ones won't!
Skirmish tax is in full force but not any worse than GW prices, where Shadepire warbands are 25 bucks for what should be a 15 dollar Easy Build kit, evidenced fairly obviously with Stormcast and Blood Reavers Easy Build vs. Shadespire sets. Hell, GW even has a skirmish tax on army-scale unit boxes. Look at Fyreslayers, at 60 dollars for 10 plastic dwarves. I once wanted to break up some Fyreslayer boxes to play an Indie skirmish ruleset (One page Rules), and it's over 100 US for a box of Berzerkers and a box of Hearthguard, 15 models.
I certainly do balk at the Vanguard booster prices, though. At least if I want sci-fi skirmish, Warpath/Deadzone models are super cheap online (which doesn't help Vanguard price comparisons).
I've been playing around a bit with EasyArmy, and despite some minor complaints (specifically that some cards end up larger or smaller than standard size), it seems like a good solution. Consider me mollified.
AegisGrimm wrote: Skirmish tax is in full force but not any worse than GW prices, where Shadepire warbands are 25 bucks for what should be a 15 dollar Easy Build kit, evidenced fairly obviously with Stormcast and Blood Reavers Easy Build vs. Shadespire sets.
Wow, final proof that people will complain even about probably the cheapest game using HIPS miniatures on the market. $25 is suddenly too much for a full faction of 3-9 HIPS models, many of which are character sculpts, a full play deck and an expansion deck thrown in for good measure? I see companies out there charging that much for just cards.
Shadespire is a boardgame is therefore mist of the time compared to other boardgames.
Comparing it to Vanguard is difficult as it has some TCG elements, eg you need all Shadespire Teams to have all generic Cards available for Deck building, which is the only way to customise your Team (if you are a hardcore player you even have to get some Teams twice to have the needed amount of copies for your Deck)
Going with AoS Skirmish (yes there are explizit small scale Skirmish rules for Mass Skirmish game) it depends on the faction, going from 40 if you get the core box stuff or 100+ if you get regular boxes
At the moment Mantic has nothing similar to Shadespire for a direct comparison and GW has nothing like Vanguard.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I was a KS backer, to the tune of $300+.
Looks like I'm going to have to spend £95 or so per extra faction just to get the rules for each faction. This sucks imo. I really wanted a Mantic model replacement for SoBH. I figure Vanguard isn't that game anymore.
I don't want free rules. I'm happy to pay for them.
Easy army is a waste of time and space for me. It will only let me play the exact game points value in the book. I can't play a smaller game using any models I want like I can with the cards.
All in all, I was happy with the game and the KS. Mantic's resins are really good. I'm just going to go elsewhere for games though as I can't access all the rules without a massive cost.
Consider giving easy army another look, I think it's excellent.
You could even create warbands just to print out a set of the cards - i.e., set the point value to the maximum, add one of each unit, print it, and cut out the cards. Now you have a complete set. They won't look quite as fancy as the purchased versions, but voila: a set of cards. And as soon as errata are released and plugged into Easy Army, your cards will be current. My fancy-pants printed ones won't!
Re Easyarmy
I've played around a little bit. Yes I think I can print out some cards from it. I'm not overly fussed about sizes. It's just the people I play with like character cards, not warhammer style army lists. The main reason I don't get any games of DZv2 now is that they removed the cards from DZv1 and turned it into an army list game.
They added them to Vanguard but made it unrealistic to all have sets of cards for each faction.
If I use easyarmy to do this, I feel like a freebie sponger who isn't helping to fund the game.
They make free stuff available as a form of advertising. You're not a sponge if you use their free products to enjoy the game and tell others you are enjoying the game.
AegisGrimm wrote: Skirmish tax is in full force but not any worse than GW prices, where Shadepire warbands are 25 bucks for what should be a 15 dollar Easy Build kit, evidenced fairly obviously with Stormcast and Blood Reavers Easy Build vs. Shadespire sets.
Wow, final proof that people will complain even about probably the cheapest game using HIPS miniatures on the market. $25 is suddenly too much for a full faction of 3-9 HIPS models, many of which are character sculpts, a full play deck and an expansion deck thrown in for good measure? I see companies out there charging that much for just cards.
How is my complaint completely unjustified? While I should have clarified better, I was talking about the boxes where they put the Shadespire warbands reboxed as grey plastic easy build kits, removing the card decks. 25 bucks for the Stormcast trios from Shadespire, but the Soul War Stormcast trios that are Easy to Build kits in the first place are 15 for the same amount of unique character models. Same for the generic Bloodbound figures that were easy to build, vs. the reboxed Garrek's Reavers, the generic 15 dollar Blood Warriors vs the 25 dollar Magore's Fiends, and before any argument is made about the Fiends including a Flesh Hound, the 15 dollar Castigators include a Gryph hound.
That's all I meant.
Plus, look at the price to field a prospective Fyreslayer warband in AoS Skirmish. At the very least you are (likely) looking at a 60 dollar box for 10 rank and file guys of the same type to start with, plus 25 for a heroic figure. At least the figures for the Mantic Vanguard Dwarven force are varied and about 15 dollars cheaper, and individual Support models can be bought. Whereas if you want to add the same sort of a specialist figure or two for your AoS Fyreslayer warband, it's either another 50 dollar chunk for as little as 5 dwarves even if you are looking to add just 1 or 2 of them, or you go to bitz sellers on Ebay (which is arguably somewhat better than buying Vanguard Dwarf support figures, as Hearthguard and Berzerker singles go for less than 10 bucks versus 15 for Vanguard stuff even though the latter is resin which is traditionally always more expensive).
Just using in-Mantic game comparisons Vanguard is more expensive per-figure than KoW or even Deadzone or Warpath, but not as bad as nearly any other skirmish-level game out there (at least for Brand-name ones). Right now I am building a Dwarven warband for local games of One Page Fantasy (a free ruleset meant to be played mainly with GW figures, much like the way in how Kings of War started out), and the only way I can build a warband at a comparable price/size for that of an official Vanguard warband is through a combination of good Amazon deals and Ebay bitz-sellers.
Some of the Vanguard booster prices make me really cringe, such as the Basilean one being 40 bucks for three figures, whereas at least the Northern Alliance and Nightstalkers ones have a somewhat larger figure in the mix for the same price.
How is my complaint completely unjustified? While I should have clarified better, I was talking about the boxes where they put the Shadespire warbands reboxed as grey plastic easy build kits, removing the card decks. 25 bucks for the Stormcast trios from Shadespire, but the Soul War Stormcast trios that are Easy to Build kits in the first place are 15 for the same amount of unique character models. Same for the generic Bloodbound figures that were easy to build, vs. the reboxed Garrek's Reavers, the generic 15 dollar Blood Warriors vs the 25 dollar Magore's Fiends, and before any argument is made about the Fiends including a Flesh Hound, the 15 dollar Castigators include a Gryph hound.
Ah, I see. ETB that used to be in Shadespire are more expensive than ETB that are standalone. That is indeed odd.
Regarding the Fyreslayers, they were in the first wave of AoS factions, common assumption is they're the last remnant of Kirby's vision of AoS prices. Sadly they did not get price cut like the Stormcast did, apart from the SC! box.
How is my complaint completely unjustified? While I should have clarified better, I was talking about the boxes where they put the Shadespire warbands reboxed as grey plastic easy build kits, removing the card decks. 25 bucks for the Stormcast trios from Shadespire, but the Soul War Stormcast trios that are Easy to Build kits in the first place are 15 for the same amount of unique character models. Same for the generic Bloodbound figures that were easy to build, vs. the reboxed Garrek's Reavers, the generic 15 dollar Blood Warriors vs the 25 dollar Magore's Fiends, and before any argument is made about the Fiends including a Flesh Hound, the 15 dollar Castigators include a Gryph hound.
Ah, I see. ETB that used to be in Shadespire are more expensive than ETB that are standalone. That is indeed odd.
Regarding the Fyreslayers, they were in the first wave of AoS factions, common assumption is they're the last remnant of Kirby's vision of AoS prices. Sadly they did not get price cut like the Stormcast did, apart from the SC! box.
Yeah, the Fyreslayers indeed have the worst value even within AoS.
But someone wake me up once all the large infantry has been switched over to resin. I want the fishmen faction eventually but not while Gigas are metal.
Terror looks (unexpectedly) really good, lots more going on there than unpainted shots suggest. Dig all them faces in addition to toothy maws and gribble aplenty.
The full release of the goblin faction, complete with superb new resin models, a full warband set and metal reinforcements. The goblin launch will be similar in style to the Dwarf release and will include a whole host of sexy new greenskins (if goblins can actually be considered sexy).
The faction launch will introduce miniatures for new units – like the Banggit and Luggit – but also create a selection of unseen units, such as the Winggit, Snaggit and extremely exciting Mawpup Launcher – some of which you can see below.
Forces of nature Druid and Trident Realms “Toad rider “
Hope they go all out on that warband with all new sculpts. the dwarfs are kind of let down by having the old, terrible, plastics in there IMHO. (then again those dwarfs have always been divisive in a marmite sort of way and the gobbos, aside from a general softness to the sprues, aren't anywhere near as bad to begin with)
New armylist PDF up on the website, includes new warband lists for a lot of the not-GW armylists. Now has Twilight Kin (dark elves), Rhordia (Empire), Brotherhood (Brettonians), Kingdoms of Men (generic humans), Salamanders (lizardment), Herd (Beastmen), Varanguar (Chaos Mortals), and Ratkin (skaven)
I may have to give it a serious look and consideration!
Good! It's a Mantic game so leaning well toward easy to learn, but difficult to master. More complex than KoW (smaller scale interactions have to be) and also designed to deliver a bit more of a narritive experience.
Agreed! Vanguard is one of the best minis games I've played in a while. Feels fresh and fun, not too clunky with too many tokens (there are some though!). Once you get the rules down, it's easy to get a 200 pt game (i.e., standard size) in 2 - 3 hours, or a bit less if you're fast. I *really* like it.
Thanks to the huge success of Hellboy, it means our warehouse is due to get very full, very quickly in a few weeks as we prepare to deliver the Kickstarter. So that means we need to clear some space. In fact, we need to clear a LOT of space. The good news foryou, is that to help generate that space, we're holding a WAREHOUSE CLEARANCE SALE! Until 9am (GMT) on Monday, March 18th you can grab a host of frankly ridiculous bargains!
No only that but we're also halving the minimum spend for free shipping! So until March 18th you'll only need to spend £25, €35 or $40! Just remember to make sure you're paying in the correct currency for your country. See the delivery details section for more info. Anyway, let's take a look at some of those sweet, sweet clearance sale items!
30 Hard Plastic Men-At-Arms/Crossbowmen,
10 PVC Plastic Sisterhood Scouts,
10 PVC Plastic Paladin Defenders,
10 PVC Plastic Gur Panthers,
20 PVC Plastic Sisterhood,
10 PVC Plastic Men-At-Arms Command,
1 Metal High Priest
The PVC minis look like repeats of the same minis the Gur Panthers are 10 of the same mini so not great in a bigger unit. They don't seem to have gone for alternate resin/metal parts for the Basileans to make the minis look a bit different.
In the months to come we’ll be releasing the Ice & Iron supplement, featuring new campaign play and updated unit stats, alongside the new Undead faction. We’ve also got the Trident Realm release
The PVC minis look like repeats of the same minis the Gur Panthers are 10 of the same mini so not great in a bigger unit. They don't seem to have gone for alternate resin/metal parts for the Basileans to make the minis look a bit different.
Of course they wouldn't. They need to keep it cheap, after all. It's just a bundle like for Nightmares.
New campaign for Vanguard, heh ? Good. They need more of that stuff to keep the game out of the water (pun intended with Trident Realms, of course). Time to go for it before Brexit and gates of hell being opened for non UK customers.
The PVC minis look like repeats of the same minis the Gur Panthers are 10 of the same mini so not great in a bigger unit. They don't seem to have gone for alternate resin/metal parts for the Basileans to make the minis look a bit different.
Of course they wouldn't. They need to keep it cheap, after all. It's just a bundle like for Nightmares.
The Nightstalkers army comes with alternate resin parts to make PVC minis look different
It’s Ronnie here and I have something very important to talk about. The planets have aligned, the Celestians have spoken… it is time for Kings of War Third Edition.
Since the Clash of Kings book 2019 we have been evaluating whether to maintain what was there for one more year, or go ahead with the Third Edition. Every conversation with the Rules Committee pointed in the direction of a full new version of the game being the preferred route.
What’s more, when we realised that September was the 10-year anniversary of the first Kings of War release, the urge became stronger.
Then we noticed that both the hard back and soft back books were running out of stock (they’re now both completely sold out), and we only had one space left on the UK Clash of Kings trophy. Plus we discussed all the cool armies and miniatures we wanted to make – well, that was it – Third Edition was coming!
There is a press release below that we’re sending out to the masses, and rest assured from what I have seen coming from the RC and Matt Gilbert’s office – you are going to be blown away by what they have planned.
The release does say that this will be the first time KoW hasn’t gone to Kickstarter, instead it’ll be released the old-fashioned way – on the Mantic web store and from your friendly local gaming store. This is possible thanks to the fantastic support we have received from the community over the years, and the growth in popularity of the game.
So, stay tuned for more info as we have it, and make sure you are signed up to the newsletter to keep getting the hot stories directly into your inbox – especially the limited edition… oh, wait what – am I not allowed to mention that yet???
"KINGS OF WAR THIRD EDITION DUE FOR RELEASE THIS OCTOBER
Mantic Games releasing a new 380-page rulebook for the world’s best mass battle fantasy wargame straight to retail in 2019.
Mantic Games is pleased to announce that this October it will be releasing a brand-new edition for its best-selling mass battle fantasy wargame, Kings of War. Inside the 380-page tome, you’ll find expanded lore for the world of Pannithor, army lists for 14 factions and, of course, revamped and refreshed rules.
The new edition will be available directly via Mantic Games webstore and through all regular gaming and hobby stores around the world. This is the first time Kings of War has not been released via Kickstarter, highlighting the growth and popularity of the game.
Alongside the book will be the brand-new Northern Alliance army, titanic monsters for some existing factions and a commemorative diorama. Plus, Mantic Games has a comprehensive selection of Kings of War releases planned throughout the rest of 2019, into 2020 and beyond, including a supplement with additional army lists – taking the total number to 26.
“2019 marks 10 years since we started Mantic Games and first released the Kings of War elves,” said Mantic Games CEO, Ronnie Renton. “As such, it seemed fitting to celebrate this important milestone with a new edition of the world’s best fantasy wargame.
“Kings of War is the jewel in our crown and we’ve been working tirelessly to make sure this new edition exceeds expectations. For fans it will make their favourite fantasy game even better, with improved rules for army creation, tighter, more competitive gameplay and lots more!”
Over the coming weeks and month Mantic Games will be releasing more information about Kings of War Third Edition so make sure you subscribe to the Mantic Games newsletter or keep checking the blog www.manticgames.com "
So first thing first : name of Kings of War's world is now Pannithor. No more joke about Mantica !
And indeed, they seem to "just" put a part of the armies in the core rulebook, others will be included in a future extension. Gotta sell these new books to the players, after all.
I'll be waiting to see what the new releases will look like, and their prices. Again they're talking about competitive gameplay, so you know what it will be about (balance, points, symetric scenarios, yadda yadda).
Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.
The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.
Smellingsalts wrote: The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.
Might as well look to Conquest then. All the points you made were Mantics selling features. Use any model, the beer phase (I like that term), and all armies having some overlap in what can be done.
Actually, Kings of War being vanilla is its very core. Having very similar units is why it makes it so easy to balance even though there are so many army lists. That's the truth behind the Balance Holy Grail : the closer they are, the more bland they feel but the more balanced they become.
That's also why Mantica felt very bland as well ; it has barely any personnality because of it being on purpose generic.
I also believe Mantic Games is trying to make it more "colorful" - and also more tied to their miniatures. If 3rd edition is too different, though, there is a risk to lose your faithful fanbase. Since Mantic Games doesn't have GW's shops to recruit new blood easily, I don't think it is a risk they're willing to take. I think it will just be a new edition, with new features of course, but the core rules shouldn't change too much IMHO.
Personally, I find the "blandness"-- universality might be a better word-- to be a feature, not a bug. It's a lot like DBA, in that Blades, for example, perform pretty much the same against contemporary opponents, whether they are samurai, Roman legionaries, or Aztec jaguar warriors. Given that every army exists in the same time period, with roughly the same technology, a few special rules here and there and some variation in the profiles provide enough difference, for me anyway.
I don't find it bland at all, all factions still play differently despite the similarity of statlines. And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.
Yeah the simple variations without resorting to a book full of special rules is one of the things I enjoy about KoW. By far my favourite game at the moment.
Though I do hope there's a rulebook version without all the lore guff, I couldn't care less about another generic fantasy world.
And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.
That's completely false, since they don't degrade the same way and a goblin with one Wound will die as soon as he takes one. The unit of 20 goblins doesn't take the wounds the same way than a dragon in AoS, and their efficiency greatly varies according to the number of wounds they suffer.
On the opposite, in Kings of War, all units take wounds the exact same way and don't degrade at all nor diminish in unit size as they take them. The only thing that can happen is either prevent them from activating or removing them completely once they fail their Morale Check to a certain degree depending on how good their morale is.
I agree Kings of War's main strength is the reason I would call it "bland", but there are also voices that would like more "character" or variations. For example, chariots - the way they're played actually isn't that satisfying for some players : their unit size is often far too great for their efficiency/damage dealing capacity in game. Some would like to make them "exceptions" to some of the core rules to give them a specific role in their army list (in comparison to cavalry/monstruous cavalry).
Just be aware that if you want more specificity/character, like they do in GW's games, it can be to the price of a harder balance. I don't mind at all, since I believe balance doesn't have to be absolute for a game to be good/interesting, but I know others definitely don't feel the same as me.
KoW does have army wide special rules, which usually are just a standard USR that all units have. All Elves are Elite, all Dwarves are Headstrong, etc. Tweaking those would be the easiest way to really introduce flavor.
One of the problems is that early in second edition, the strongest lists played strongly against type. For example, undead was best served by relying mostly on Vampire Heavy Cavalry (which was crucially not limited by the usual rules for undead) and vampire heroes, which were highly maneuverable, high defense, and thus could shut down much of an enemy battle line. Ogre armies were built around the heavy crossbowmen, not actual ogres. And dragons and equivalent "heavy fliers" were the bane of all.
KOW is balance precisely because it's a bit bland. As a rule, the most interesting outlier units are the least balanced.
They can't win do a KS people complain that they don't need to do a KS at this stage don't do a KS and people complain they can't get all the goodies.
I believe "The League" is the focus of the next KS so it was probably either that or KoW3. It's good to see KoW move beyond KS and that they can fund new stuff themselves but that will slow down new releases somewhat.
Very interested to see the Northern Alliance HIPS kit.
If they can do a bundle with a deal like the value people get with a Kickstarter I think people would be happy.
The big problems they have with Kickstarter (in my mind)
1.they get too excited and plan too much but when the numbers aren’t matching their plan they start rolling ahead of the goals and adding everything in to try and get the numbers up. When that doesn’t work they have to change things.
2. As stated in 1, they change stuff post Kickstarter to try and save money they didn’t get. Cheaper (newer materials that they promise will be just as good if not 20x better) plastic/resins.
3. Time table. Too long of a preorder window. Let’s face it, most people see Kickstarter as a preorder system. When people pay ahead and then it takes longer, even longer than the estimate plus Kickstarter delay time, then it instantly sours. They’ve run how many kickstarters and problem should keep popping up.
4. No support post Kickstarter. There are 5FLGS within an hours drive of my house, plus Miniaturemarket’s retail shop and no one carries Mantic to any sort of extent. All this was because they couldn’t get the product cheaper than Kickstarter prices and they got NO support from Mantic. Unless people get a bunch of friends to go in heavy in the Kickstarter then they just won’t have people to play against unless they shell out the money for multiple books and accessories. At which time they could have just bought GW product and had plenty of opponents to play.
Also interested in the Northern Alliance and would like to see Ophidia too. My thoughts is that while they need to maintain army lists for WHFB refugees (as that is part of KoW's draw), they should be pushing their armies. So bring out NA and Ophidia, and elaborate on Trident Realms, Nightstalkers et al, but other than legacy support for Empire, Skaven etc keep that to a minimum. Little to no profit in supporting another company's defunct product line.
DaveC wrote: They can't win do a KS people complain that they don't need to do a KS at this stage don't do a KS and people complain they can't get all the goodies.
I believe "The League" is the focus of the next KS so it was probably either that or KoW3. It's good to see KoW move beyond KS and that they can fund new stuff themselves but that will slow down new releases somewhat.
Very interested to see the Northern Alliance HIPS kit.
lord_blackfang wrote: Sad that some factions (betting that all those without any Mantic models) are being put on hiatus.
No they aren't. You'll just have to wait about 6 or 7 weeks. There will be 26 armies by the end of the year.
How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?
The Mantic blog post says that the 380 page BRB for KoW 3rdEd will have 14 army factions in it and they will also release a supplement book with an additional 12 faction lists in it for a total of 26 factions. No idea why they would release the supplement two months after the BRB instead of a simultaneous release.
Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.
Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.
There are 11 armies in the current rulebook, so adding Trident Realm, Night-stalkers and Northern Alliance make 14. That means it's split between Mantic created and/or generic fantasy that Mantic have models for and armies from "somewhere else".
Smellingsalts wrote:The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.
That's a terrible idea. That current fan base likes the game for what it is. The rules tweaks and additions tested in Clash of Kings rolled into the core rules is the good move.
You obviously give KoW much of a look. You sound like one of those people who said AoS is just a big scrum in the middle of the board; that's was only true if you don't play scenarios or try some tactics.
Kings of War is designed to be simple, easy to learn and balanced. Instead of taking on extra rules to entertain you, Mantic made a game where outplaying your opponent gives the game depth. That's why the seemingly small differences between units actually make a noticeable difference, if you know the game well enough. That isn't for everyone, but trying to make a game for everyone leaves you with a mess that no one is really happy with. Mantic know what kind of player enjoys their game and makes it accordingly. I hope that Mantic is sensible enough to make a game for their players instead of trying to appease people who don't like their game or style, like you.
lord_blackfang wrote:I don't find it bland at all, all factions still play differently despite the similarity of statlines. And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.
Agreed (onKoW) a small defference like +1 Ne across the board for Varangur make the army noticeably tougher.
Your point on AoS isn't entirely wrong, but a bit overgeneralized. That undermines out point on the small differences and nuance that KoW relies on, by dismissing the not so subtle difference between units and armies in GW games. #justsaying
Boss Salvage wrote:
Sarouan wrote: Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked !
I know I'm excited to give Mantic money! Since I very rarely buy their minis I legitimately look forward to supporting their books
Agreed!
I'm busy converting my dwarf army to be all Mantic though.
Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.
Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.
I was being facetious. Besides, let's remind you that Mantic Games could also have provided free rules for CoK 2019 on a PDF on their website, but they instead pushed for a book every year and hunted down any leak that happened on the net when they could. This is a marketing issue, and it was on purpose to force people to buy a book every year. It doesn't make it better if Mantic Games does it.
And it may be inexpensive to you, but it's still money you have to give them for a book, just a book, so that you have all the upgraded rules, especially for tournaments. It's a marketing trick again. It's really funny that when GW sells a new edition, it's milking their fanbase, but when Mantic Games is doing it, no it isn't ? It's the same damn thing, people. You can justify all you want, though. It doesn't change the fact they're doing it.
But it doesn't really matter, to be honest. It's still just a book, right ? And you have 14 army lists inside, so it's not like you have to put too much money into it. I'm more curious about what will be the rule changes (because there will be, otherwise there's no point to bring a third edition after CoK 2019) and I do hope they don't go on the "special rules/exceptions" slope. I believe it's better if they keep KoW simple.
There are 11 armies in the current rulebook, so adding Trident Realm, Night-stalkers and Northern Alliance make 14. That means it's split between Mantic created and/or generic fantasy that Mantic have models for and armies from "somewhere else".
I'm going further and say that Kingdom of Men will be out of the core rules, and they will just put all the armies they sell actually on their webstore plus Northern Alliance for the third edition book - makes 14. That would mean Empire of Dust getting in.
I don't think Mantic Games has the ressources to pull out a lot of new units/armies for the time third edition comes in. And I believe that, showing what they did with Vanguard, they would think better than giving army lists with no Mantic Games miniature to buy for them. I do believe the times Mantic Games was pushing for other miniatures than their own is getting less and less prevalent as years pass on...because, let's be honest, that's the reason KoW was always behind in sales. You can't just let their people use GW miniatures for their games, it's not profitable for Mantic Games in the end.
Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.
Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.
I was being facetious.
Sure you were, that's totally convincing. You're not arguing there is no argument form you.
Besides, let's remind you that Mantic Games could also have provided free rules for CoK 2019 on a PDF on their website, but they instead pushed for a book every year and hunted down any leak that happened on the net when they could. This is a marketing issue, and it was on purpose to force people to buy a book every year. It doesn't make it better if Mantic Games does it.
And it may be inexpensive to you, but it's still money you have to give them for a book, just a book, so that you have all the upgraded rules, especially for tournaments. It's a marketing trick again. It's really funny that when GW sells a new edition, it's milking their fanbase, but when Mantic Games is doing it, no it isn't ? It's the same damn thing, people. You can justify all you want, though. It doesn't change the fact they're doing it.
I could and am tempted to get into a Mantic vs GW argument, but that's just troll feeding. It's not really the same thing.
How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?
I've not heard that rumour but it's not true. Can you link to where that is? The main rulebook contains 14 complete army lists.
As long as the rest of the army lists aren't released in piecemeal only if you buy the figures. Mantic ruined Vanguard for me and my gaming buds with the X-wing style release schedule. That was one KS I now wished I'd never gone into (As an undead and Orcs player, I'll have to rebuy loads of models I already have from Mantic just to get the cards, or wait months and print some dodgy ones out from a website)
Smellingsalts wrote:The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.
Deep Black said "That's a terrible idea. That current fan base likes the game for what it is. The rules tweaks and additions tested in Clash of Kings rolled into the core rules is the good move.
You obviously give KoW much of a look. You sound like one of those people who said AoS is just a big scrum in the middle of the board; that's was only true if you don't play scenarios or try some tactics.
Kings of War is designed to be simple, easy to learn and balanced. Instead of taking on extra rules to entertain you, Mantic made a game where outplaying your opponent gives the game depth. That's why the seemingly small differences between units actually make a noticeable difference, if you know the game well enough. That isn't for everyone, but trying to make a game for everyone leaves you with a mess that no one is really happy with. Mantic know what kind of player enjoys their game and makes it accordingly. I hope that Mantic is sensible enough to make a game for their players instead of trying to appease people who don't like their game or style, like you."
Let's be honest. Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle existed simultaneously for some time. In my area, there were people who tried KOW and went back to WHFB. There were no mass defections to KOW from WHFB. Not until WHFB died did people move over to KOW. So all the talk about "I love vanilla" and "balanced rules" didn't exist until WHFB died. Then all those who liked fantasy rank and flank games had only two places to go KOW and 9th Age. So what that tells me is that people preferred WHFB warts and all because it wasn't vanilla. They were willing to put up with rules issues because the detail to spells, magic items, special rules, background etc. made it superior to KOW. Right now, my hope is that this new game, Conquest, will bring back the magic. If not, in 8 more years or so GW will bring back WHFB in some form and you will have mass defections from KOW to the new version of WHFB.
You are also wrong about me giving KOW a closer look. Two of my very good friends play KOW and I really tried to like it and give it a chance. But the game has been dumbed down from WHFB to the point where I just can't enjoy it. Maybe if I had never played WHFB I could have learned to like it, but knowing that there once was a way better game ruins it for me. Also, I play and enjoy AOS. It's not WHFB, it's a simple skirmish game and it's fine for what it does. But for rank and flank fantasy I am looking forwards to Conquest to scratch that itch.
I'm busy converting my dwarf army to be all Mantic though.
Smellingsalts wrote: Let's be honest. Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle existed simultaneously for some time. In my area, there were people who tried KOW and went back to WHFB. There were no mass defections to KOW from WHFB. Not until WHFB died did people move over to KOW. So all the talk about "I love vanilla" and "balanced rules" didn't exist until WHFB died. Then all those who liked fantasy rank and flank games had only two places to go KOW and 9th Age. So what that tells me is that people preferred WHFB warts and all because it wasn't vanilla. They were willing to put up with rules issues because the detail to spells, magic items, special rules, background etc. made it superior to KOW. Right now, my hope is that this new game, Conquest, will bring back the magic. If not, in 8 more years or so GW will bring back WHFB in some form and you will have mass defections from KOW to the new version of WHFB.
We could also be honest and consider that WHFB failed and KoW is growing.
I've already gone over how KoW isn't everyone's taste. Someone not liking it is anecdotal evidence that just repeats that point.
You've also ignored that popularity and familiarity also governs which games people decide to play. If someone is all set up and know the rules for one game then they're less likely to switch (even to a better game) unless their current game becomes unbearable somehow. How many people play a game already is also a big part, you play what you can find opponents for.
So if someone has to decide between a new game that they like, but have to convince other people to leave their comfort zones, it's easier to just stick to the good enough thing everyone already knows
Claiming one game is superior is meaningless. Different aspect are important to different people. The one thing we all look for in a game (having fun) is entirely subjective and dependent on the other aspects we prefer.
In terms of extra rules, things to choose from and people already plating it, WHFB was ahead of KoW in it's day.
In terms of clean rules, ease of learning, balance (also suitability for competitive play) and being the kind of game I personally enjoy KoW wins hands down.
You are also wrong about me giving KOW a closer look. Two of my very good friends play KOW and I really tried to like it and give it a chance. But the game has been dumbed down from WHFB to the point where I just can't enjoy it. Maybe if I had never played WHFB I could have learned to like it, but knowing that there once was a way better game ruins it for me. Also, I play and enjoy AOS. It's not WHFB, it's a simple skirmish game and it's fine for what it does. But for rank and flank fantasy I am looking forwards to Conquest to scratch that itch.
You very obviously don't understand KoW, it looks a lot like you're judging it buy things it wasn't designed to do and it's not the kind of game for you. Have fun playing conquest, I sincerely hope you enjoy it.
To be honest, at the time Uncharted Empires was out, there were some army lists that were clearly written for WFB players, so that they could come to KoW with their GW armies.
Sure, Mantic Games could make miniatures for those armies, but as time passed on, it is very obvious they can't spend as many ressources as GW to make that many units for so many army lists at the same time. The result was players buying miniatures elsewhere to play these armies.
When I read Mantic's announcement about their new plan for KoW, it really feels that they will be thinking twice before doing another Uncharted Empires (army lists without miniatures). Would make sense if they instead take their time and release army lists when they have some Mantic Games miniatures ready to be sold for them. Like they did with Vanguard, even if players weren't happy of their change of attitude at that time. Also, they should make more units specific for their miniatures, and not just inspiration from what was in WFB army books. It would certainly suck for the players who still used their GW armies, but that's not them who will bring Mantic Games a lot of money.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Mantic ruined Vanguard for me and my gaming buds with the X-wing style release schedule. That was one KS I now wished I'd never gone into (As an undead and Orcs player, I'll have to rebuy loads of models I already have from Mantic just to get the cards, or wait months and print some dodgy ones out from a website)
This got me grumpy at the start of Vanguard too, but because of easyarmy I have gotten over this grumpyness.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, at the time Uncharted Empires was out, there were some army lists that were clearly written for WFB players, so that they could come to KoW with their GW armies.
Sure, Mantic Games could make miniatures for those armies, but as time passed on, it is very obvious they can't spend as many ressources as GW to make that many units for so many army lists at the same time. The result was players buying miniatures elsewhere to play these armies.
When I read Mantic's announcement about their new plan for KoW, it really feels that they will be thinking twice before doing another Uncharted Empires (army lists without miniatures). Would make sense if they instead take their time and release army lists when they have some Mantic Games miniatures ready to be sold for them. Like they did with Vanguard, even if players weren't happy of their change of attitude at that time. Also, they should make more units specific for their miniatures, and not just inspiration from what was in WFB army books. It would certainly suck for the players who still used their GW armies, but that's not them who will bring Mantic Games a lot of money.
The rules in the book and another book with more lists is most likely another Uncharted Empires.
I does indicate that Mantic can't and/or will not make miniatures for those lists.
You're misjudging the value of people just playing the game though. Removing the option to play those armies will alienate a significant part of the player base. Not doing gak like that is why many fans like Mantic, a move like that will alienate those players even if none of their armies get invalidated.
Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.
Also keep in mind that Mantic have adopted a value for money approach to making miniatures. Many people like the cheaper miniatures, other people want nicer miniatures. By allowing other companies' miniatures Mantic get the best of both. People who like value for money minis and/or just want to support Mantic still buy from Mantic, players who do not still buy books and add to the community (i.e. grow the customer base). I also takes pressure off Mantic becasue they don't have to develop miniatures for everything.
OMG Dark Black, quit telling me I don't understand KOW or that I'm not familiar with it to justify your points. You don't know anything about me. I know KOW very well and I just don't like it, and empirically there are lots of things not to like. But thank you for your well wishes on my playing Conquest. Let's revisit this argument in several years, by then we will know the fate of KOW and Conquest.
You're misjudging the value of people just playing the game though. Removing the option to play those armies will alienate a significant part of the player base. Not doing gak like that is why many fans like Mantic, a move like that will alienate those players even if none of their armies get invalidated.
I'm not misjudging, I'm just saying people using their GW armies to play at KoW doesn't bring much money to Mantic Games. They don't need to buy miniatures on their web store, after all, they already have everything they need to play. Worse, if they want to add more units, they just buy more GW miniatures instead, since there are no Mantic Games miniatures available and it's more coherent for their armies. Sure, they'll buy the annual book, but I don't think that's how Mantic Games manages to avoid Kickstarters for their projects. I believe Vanguard is the reason of their success they're talking on their blog - and the new armies of Nightstalkers and Basilea that came along.
And yes, a move like that would certainly alienate some of their player base, but the question is would it really hurt Mantic Games on long term ? Change always brings unsatisfaction from a part of the fanbase, anyway. As long as the overal gains are greater than the losses, it may be worth it in the end. You can't satisfy everyone all the time.
They can indeed keep the army lists, but I would expect changes in them and I believe Mantic Games wants to release miniatures for all of them in the end. If they plan for 2020 as well, I think that the extension books may come later than we think, when they have something ready to cover the other armies. Meanwhile, it is possible Mantic would put some temporary army lists on their site like they did for Twilight Kin for so long.
Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.
It's more complicated than that, actually. First, I'm not that sure KoW is that popular worldwide. It sure has a core fanbase in UK, but outside it's very difficult to see. What we know for sure is that retailers are not that fond of Mantic Games products for reasons already explained on this topic before, and it is still an important engine for recruitment of new blood. When new players see you play with beautiful miniatures that aren't from Mantic Games and are taught by these veterans that they can use any miniature they want, do you really think their first move will be to go to Mantic Games to buy their miniatures ? I'm not so sure, especially when the veteran explains them where to get these beautiful other miniatures for a very fair price. It is awesome for gameplay, I don't deny it (I have a full GW goblin army made for KoW with more than 200 miniatures, hard to play them all on a board but they certainly look awesome when put together), but in term of sales for Mantic Games ? I don't think it brings them as much when someone plays full Mantic Games miniatures with army lists specific to them.
It may be sounding harsh, but I would understand if Mantic Games put the army lists that promote their miniatures first in the core book, then wait to have miniatures ready to come for future army lists later (at least, on the plan). They need to be more retailer friendly too, to help promote the game better. So far, it is their fanbase who has to organize themselves to do that most of the time - and it has its limits. Conquest is already doing the right things on that matter.
Also keep in mind that Mantic have adopted a value for money approach to making miniatures. Many people like the cheaper miniatures, other people want nicer miniatures. By allowing other companies' miniatures Mantic get the best of both. People who like value for money minis and/or just want to support Mantic still buy from Mantic, players who do not still buy books and add to the community (i.e. grow the customer base). I also takes pressure off Mantic becasue they don't have to develop miniatures for everything.
Yes, they have made huge progress so far on their miniatures, and that is very welcome ! I can only dream of them redoing the plastic elves and dwarves to their new standard, really...but I know they certainly can't afford it before some time, given their limited ressources in comparison to GW. What I'm saying is they would sell more if they manage to get specific Mantic Games miniatures for the army lists they provide for third edition. If they do the Uncharted Empire again, they will lose some because some players will already have their armies made with other miniatures the time they get their own on their webstore - and those players will be less likely to buy the Mantic Games ones for the simple reason they don't need them. Of course, there will be always some of them who will buy anyway, or take one unit to complete their collection or any other reason, but that would still be a fraction of what they could have if they had Mantic Games miniatures available at the time the army lists are provided. This was the same effect when GW released army books for WFB with units not having miniatures for months, years or even never - and what happened is that others companies/sculptors made miniatures for these units, and players bought them instead of GW miniatures because it was more convenient. Why do you think GW stopped making rules without having GW miniatures to play them ? That's why, and Mantic Games showed they have some concern as well with what happened with Vanguard.
Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.
It's more complicated than that, actually. First, I'm not that sure KoW is that popular worldwide.
Which is why Mantic needs to let people play with what they have. Once there is a community, then Mantic and members in the community can encourage and incentives using Mantic miniatures. Like is already happening. The game needs to grow. Even if a fraction of the commuity buys Mantic, the bigger the community the bigger the fraction of it. Plus the positive attitude toward Mantic that they have fostered with fans.
Cutting down on how many people can play and making it harder to get started cuts down the size of the global community. That community is most, if not all, of Mantic's potential and current customers.
As things stand, Mantic have many loyal and pro-Mantic fans (including myself). Trying to force people to play with Mantic miniatures (even if they had the range to allow that) would alienate those fans, exclude a large portion of their future customers. What you ae suggesting will IMO gut Mantic's customer base and destroy the goodwill they have by trying to milk the payerbase that is left.
I'm not misjudging, I'm just saying people using their GW armies to play at KoW doesn't bring much money to Mantic Games. They don't need to buy miniatures on their web store, after all, they already have everything they need to play. Worse, if they want to add more units, they just buy more GW miniatures instead, since there are no Mantic Games miniatures available and it's more coherent for their armies.
Always so negative towards Mantic Sarouan.
I started in KoW with my GW armies like many. But, it will bring in money for Mantic. Most people move to second armies and may get some Mantic stuff - after all, GW have indoctrinated people into thinking you have to get the minis from the game maker.
People will get extra units for their armies from Mantic, even if their army has GW models in it. You are allowed to mix it up you know and GW didn't make all the units in KoW.
If you get other people playing KoW with you, some will spend more cash on Mantic armies.
Also, don't forget lots of the new GW stuff is made so it won't look like it will fit a more generic fantasy game. Less GW sales, more for Mantic.
GW do a great service in getting many people into the mini hobby, but they also indoctrinate them with so many false beliefs about the wider hobby.
I definitely feel that Mantic need to push their more unique armys, such as the forces of the abyss, trident realms and hopefully the forth coming northern alliance. But will happily pay for a second book which contains the lists for my old Warhammer armies.
I'd also like to see them do a range of generic monsters. The giant that can be used by a bunch of armies is great, image if they also did hydra's, griffons, pegasus etc which half a dozen armies could all include.
If they are going to make any big changes to the rules, the one thing I'd like to change is characters. I hate it when a single guy holds up an entire regiment single handed. I would prefer it if they came in small units, as in the general with elite bodyguard. A troop size base with regiment + stats to portray that these guys are the best of the best. but then that would be a major change to how they game plays.
DarkBlack wrote: we may be getting off topic.
Speaking of topic, how do we get the title changed? Vanguard is not new news anymore.
PM a Mod and ask for title change none of them really frequent this thread so your post may go unnoticed.
It might be worth retiring this thread with KoW3 coming and having someone that's willing to keep to the OP and title up to date start a new one as Cyporiean doesn't seem to be around here anymore.
Tamereth wrote: I definitely feel that Mantic need to push their more unique armys, such as the forces of the abyss, trident realms and hopefully the forth coming northern alliance. But will happily pay for a second book which contains the lists for my old Warhammer armies.
I'd also like to see them do a range of generic monsters. The giant that can be used by a bunch of armies is great, image if they also did hydra's, griffons, pegasus etc which half a dozen armies could all include.
If they are going to make any big changes to the rules, the one thing I'd like to change is characters. I hate it when a single guy holds up an entire regiment single handed. I would prefer it if they came in small units, as in the general with elite bodyguard. A troop size base with regiment + stats to portray that these guys are the best of the best. but then that would be a major change to how they game plays.
I got Ronnie's agreement to do characters with bodyguards 3-4 years ago, but actually getting it to happen was a whole other thing. That being said, Mantic isn't suddenly going to eliminate lone characters, the issue will have to be solved another way.
I think growing KOW is a long term investment for Mantic. If a person looks at the abyssals or nightstalkers and is thinking about buying them, a healthy community is a great selling point.
Don't forget the new bundles for Basilea. These "new" Men-At-Arms in plastic hips are gorgeous. The Mega-Army sure has a lot of same poses, but it does the job and is a nice complement to those wanting to fill in the new units in KoW that came in CoK 2019.
So far, the elves and dwarves are certainly one of the oldest kits, but I believe by just redoing the plastic kits like for Basilea, they can already make a huge improvement for the look of the army.
Curious what an Arkosaur is. Looks a bit more lizard- like than the Salamanders.
I appreciate Mantic bringing so many new and unique models to the Vanguard line. They've done a lot more in terms of new stuff than GW has at least with Underworlds.
Curious what an Arkosaur is. Looks a bit more lizard- like than the Salamanders.
.
It's one of the subspecies of the "lizardmen like" Mantic faction. Salamanders are another of these subspecies as well. They are described in the Uncharted Empire supplement.
Curious what an Arkosaur is. Looks a bit more lizard- like than the Salamanders.
I appreciate Mantic bringing so many new and unique models to the Vanguard line. They've done a lot more in terms of new stuff than GW has at least with Underworlds.
Some nice but unnecessary models. Seemingly designed to be unique enough to warrant Mantic claiming we're getting something new - even though a lot of people only want the cards/rules to use with their existing Mantic undead. The Vanguard sales method still stinks of old X-wing card sales.
Just sell the damn rules/cards without the models. If you make good models, people will buy them anyway, and if those models get KoW rules, people will want multiples, so the sales will be there. I didn't add the costs this time, but I'm assuming we'll need to spend 90 quid or more on models just to get the rules again.
Polonius wrote:I think growing KOW is a long term investment for Mantic. If a person looks at the abyssals or nightstalkers and is thinking about buying them, a healthy community is a great selling point.
This.
DaveC wrote:
Undead Warband - £29.99
Content:
10 Hard Plastic Skeleton Warriors
3 Hard Plastic Zombies
2 Hard Plastic Ghouls
1 Resin Wraith
1 Resin Arkosaur Necromancer
Undead Vanguard deck.
I might get these just for D&D sessions. Might as well try undead in Vanguard if I have them already though.
Gimgamgoo wrote:
Some nice but unnecessary models. Seemingly designed to be unique enough to warrant Mantic claiming we're getting something new - even though a lot of people only want the cards/rules to use with their existing Mantic undead. The Vanguard sales method still stinks of old X-wing card sales.
Just sell the damn rules/cards without the models. If you make good models, people will buy them anyway, and if those models get KoW rules, people will want multiples, so the sales will be there. I didn't add the costs this time, but I'm assuming we'll need to spend 90 quid or more on models just to get the rules again.
All the rules are free on EasyArmy. You only need to buy models if you want the nice cards.
Of all the things in Mantic's future, I'm looking forward to Vanguard second edition the most.
I'm not saying that it should be soon, rather not actually, time should be taken for problems to surface and fixes to be tried. At least a few years.
Vanguard is a lovely game, but there are some kinks that one can't get to in the first edition of any game. Vanguard being in it's first edition definitely shows (not really something that can be helped).
With the first edition kinks ironed out Vanguard second edition is going to be a great game.
Straight to retail kow3 is fine. But why not use KS to supplement some of those stand in armies? They can release slow and steady with one of their unique factions, but may as well churn out a Mantic Empire faction if there's interest, and they've not done a KS in a year, wtfn
Pretty sure "The League" stuff is going to KS soon so that probably ruled out doing a KoW3 KS around the same time. Ronnie mentioned late summer in the open day Q&A. The TerrainCrate 2 KS was 4 months ago the PM just closed.
Pretty much, yes. It's something akin to Dungeon Saga, but with villains as the "adventuring group". There is an article about it in the magazine Tabletop Gaming from July 2019. Its full name is League of Infamy.
Dear Mantic
I don't buy your stuff, never played your games and really never had any interest.
That was, until I read "Goblin Ninja". Please carry on, you have my attention now.
Sincerely,
Pourspelur
PourSpelur wrote: Dear Mantic
I don't buy your stuff, never played your games and really never had any interest.
That was, until I read "Goblin Ninja". Please carry on, you have my attention now.
Sincerely,
Pourspelur
PourSpelur wrote: Dear Mantic
I don't buy your stuff, never played your games and really never had any interest.
That was, until I read "Goblin Ninja". Please carry on, you have my attention now.
Sincerely,
Pourspelur
*sigh*
- Rackham
Malifaux- “We have those too!!!! Please check me buy our stuff!!! Please!!! “
Malifaux has *drunken* ninja goblins to be specific.
There*s also luchadores goblins and magic zappy wizards in addition to the rest of the bayou range. Plus a lot of the bayou gremlins are dirt cheap as everything gets shuffled around for 3rd edition 'faux.
Back on topic- I'm hoping this takes the rules from Hellboy or Silver Tower moreso than the original Dungeon Saga. The fact that Hewitt is involved again makes me feel good about this.
DarkBlack wrote: we may be getting off topic.
Speaking of topic, how do we get the title changed? Vanguard is not new news anymore.
Pming a mod or hitting the mod alert button are the best ways. What should the title be changed to? I occasionally skim the thread but don't really follow it.
DarkBlack wrote: we may be getting off topic.
Speaking of topic, how do we get the title changed? Vanguard is not new news anymore.
Pming a mod or hitting the mod alert button are the best ways. What should the title be changed to? I occasionally skim the thread but don't really follow it.
That’s like asking a smart-butt like me where to stick something.
Red Scar Publishing is collaborating with Mantic Games to bring their popular fantasy setting to life with Kings of War the Roleplaying Game. Launching on Kickstarter in August 2019, players will begin as heroes and climb towards the true powers of their realm as they complete quests across a lush, rich world. Driven by Red Scar Publishing’s ENnie award-winning Creative Director, Marc Langworthy, the Kings of War RPG draws together Red Scar, Mantic, and Winged Hussar to delve deeper into the rich lore established by the Kings of War tabletop wargame and its siblings.
Mantic’s gaming vision is to create games that are accessible while remaining immersive and rewarding, and the Kings of War RPG is no different. The innovative TriCore ruleset is a lightweight system that gives the players scope to prove their heroism without being too complex or serving as a barrier to entry. Using a Dicepool and Keyword mechanic, characters begin with a standard Dicepool and apply Keywords from their stats, skills and gear to gain extra dice. Players can select familiar character sets and races drawn from the wide range of good, neutral and evil races found throughout Pannithor.
I suspect Red Scar will run the KS as Mantic have another lined up at a similar time.
"Their popular fantasy setting"? Really? I'm as much a Mantica fan as anyone--I've got Rise of the Shadow King and Bloodstone of Cerillion on my shelf--but I would never describe the setting as "popular". Afraid I'm gonna have to call BS on that.
I'm looking forward to reading all the fluff, but the rule set sounds a bit crunchy for me. I'm a big fan of the simplicity of the old West End Star Wars.
Well, their setting is popular within their KoW fanbase, so that's technically true.
Guess we'll know more about their KS, but that "Dicepool" mechanism sounds actually pretty simple. Don't know why, but I'm picturing it's designed to be used with Mantic miniatures (that focus on "keywords" got my brow raised).
As things stand, Mantic have many loyal and pro-Mantic fans (including myself). Trying to force people to play with Mantic miniatures (even if they had the range to allow that) would alienate those fans, exclude a large portion of their future customers. What you ae suggesting will IMO gut Mantic's customer base and destroy the goodwill they have by trying to milk the payerbase that is left.
I guess I'll wait and see (or await confirmation one way or another from someone like Matt) and see if the Uncharted Empires armies will continue to be supported before making a decision as to whether I buy into this next edition. I've got quite a lot of armies, and while some of them are Mantic, others are not (and yet others are mixed)...
(Have I ever mentioned how much I love my wife?)
)
