Because apparently no one bothered to read the fluff when they commissioned the sculptor
"It is said that these black-skinned beasts have roamed the world since its creation, and only after the Sundering found service in the legions of the Wicked Ones. Around them, time can flow faster or more slowly than elsewhere, and their enemies are often caused to wither and die in a heartbeat as the curse of ages is placed upon them." - KoW2 Hardback Rulebook
Also, they have Breath Attack(20) in the rules.
Breath Attack doesn't mean fire, KoW doesn't rename or reinvent rules for the same functionality. The Breath Attack is the curse of the ages.
Its nice, what I can see of it at least, has there been any other images/renders of this thing floating around I'd love to get a better idea of its overall proportions.
@ Hamster
Excellent idea, this would make a wonderful Battle-Captain on Rhinosaur, shouyld be easy too since the orc rider appears
to be separate.
I will probably use that Chroneas as a Ragefire Elemental in Pathfinder.
Cool looking model, but not what I pictured Chroneas looking like, though he will do. (Or... I may use an orrery, just to have a model that makes people go 'huh'....)
Ancestral Hamster wrote: Maybe they'll sell the winged mount separately too. It would work in a Salamanders army too.
Mantic are big on multikitting their monsters, only one that isn't so far is the Dwarf ram, wouldn't surprise me if a second Salamander kit showed up later on
NTRabbit wrote: Mantic are big on multikitting their monsters, only one that isn't so far is the Dwarf ram, wouldn't surprise me if a second Salamander kit showed up later on
Ah, something to look forward to then. Heck, if they don't multi-kit the figure, I can just buy it as is and provide my own rider.
@TheAuldGrump: re: using an orrery as Chroneas. You can tell your opponent you are killing them with SCIENCE!
(Or at least Blinding them with Science ... )
Illumini wrote: Mantic should really up the size of their monster bases, even their own models are not even close to fitting on 50x50
It has been heavily trailed that the rules committee is looking at upping the minimum base size for monsters to 75x75 for the next edition. They have also considered an option for different power levels of monster depending on the base size so a dragon on a 50x50 would be a smaller and weaker dragon on a 75x75 with points to match. 3rd is a while off yet so AKAIK nothing is set in stone as yet.
NTRabbit wrote: Mantic are big on multikitting their monsters, only one that isn't so far is the Dwarf ram, wouldn't surprise me if a second Salamander kit showed up later on
Ah, something to look forward to then. Heck, if they don't multi-kit the figure, I can just buy it as is and provide my own rider.
@TheAuldGrump: re: using an orrery as Chroneas. You can tell your opponent you are killing them with SCIENCE!
(Or at least Blinding them with Science ... )
Please, I can always do science to it!
The George Washington Bridge has off loaded its cargo in Tacoma - the Terrain Crates are now in the US.
The Auld Grump - never disagree with an elf holding a bundle of dynamite... trust me on this.
Their stuff from Dungeon Saga was really nice. Very firm plastic, like what Dwarven Forge uses. Not HIPs, there is some flex, but more firm than Reaper Bones. I have both (Reaper dungeon decor and Mantic) and prefer the Mantic stuff, though the Reaper stuff ain't bad either.
This is why I’m still a little worried about Fantasy Terraincrate as nice as the painted images look those are resin pieces not production plastic which hasn’t been seen in the wild yet. The Star Saga desks/benches are too warped to be fixable hopefully they used a harder plastic this time. I noticed in the Guerrilla miniature unboxing that some of the thin pieces were bent.
StarSaga Furniture is very easy fixed.
Microwave a cup of water. Put everything in there. Look how all of it is adjusting by itself. It's like magic really. I was suprised. Put it in cold water with icecubes. Done!
The only thing in the whole box you will not be able to fix this way is the Chovar, since some of his tentacles won t adjust by itself because of the heavy things they are holding. With him you will need to hold the tentacles in place, when putting it in the icecube water. You may need to do it part by part. That's the only thing with real work involved.
Just don t use spraypaint primer from vallejo with these (or anything boardgamyplastic from FFG). Just saying...
That is strange. I have done it with 3 Boxes. 2 Retail and 1 KS Edition. Had no problems. Did you use icecubes/frogs?
If you let them cool out on their own they will rewarp. Was the water hot enough? It really needs to adjust by itself or the water is not hot enough, and won t hold the form in the end.
Or maybe there are different badges? All of my boxes are post KS. The KS Edition was from the Mantic-online-store.
My star saga furniture unwarped mostly fine using the boiling then freezing water trick.
I left the most bendy bits many minuites in the water and held them in position to set.
The rubbery plastic seemd to be the same as used in dungeon saga, but the shape of the pieces are vary different. The bends only seem to appear in thinner parts.
My terraincrate arrived this morning, s'good stuff. Between the Dungeon and Battlefield crates, the only noteworthy bit of bent plastic is the wagon, which needs a visit to a body and fender shop, the rock walls lifts about 2mm off the ground in the middle, while the broken rock walls bend ever so slightly around the broken and rubble part. Otherwise all good.
Psychopomp wrote: My Terrain Crate pledge got in yesterday, and I'm pretty well set for walls, fences, and fantasy/medieval scatter terrain now. That's a lot of stuff.
My wife carried away a lot of the sets when they came in on Thursday.
The good thing about having a shared hobby is that you don't have to explain why you are painting little plastic people.
The bad thing is the number of times you go 'Where'd did it go? I could have sworn I had it right... oh, there it is, on Megan's side of the table....' (I would not trade that for the world! It makes me smile, every time it happens!)
And she already had a bunch painted up for her game the next day. (A quick Prime, Wash, Drybrush - but painted!)
The Auld Grump - it is possible that my character spent time running across some of that furniture, and then leaping into the air to catch a flying critter....
The two 28mm hedge rows also work as 15mm bocage hedge rows, and 10mm/6mm road lining trees, hooray for the sculptor capturing that bushes are often just scale model trees. I wonder if there's a way to get more of them cheaply without getting more fences than one needs?
I'm fairly disappointed with my terrain crate stuff. They used such a soft, rubbery PVC that many pieces are just unusable like the campfire spit, the wagon wheels--heck the whole wagon is an unusable joke.
Monkeysloth wrote: I'm fairly disappointed with my terrain crate stuff. They used such a soft, rubbery PVC that many pieces are just unusable like the campfire spit, the wagon wheels--heck the whole wagon is an unusable joke.
The wagons were the only mutated model I received.
I dropped them into a bowl of kettle boiled water. Left them a minute, fished them out with tweezers and placed them in an ice cooled pot of water.
Perfection.
I'm really impressed with all 3 large crates I got. Well done Mantic on these.
Turns out my issues were with how long they'd sat in a hot delivery truck (several days over the weekend) as it took about an hour for things to cool down and harden to what they're expected to be. The wagons were really bad as for about 30 min after getting the box just their own weight was enough to almost have the bottom of the cart touch the ground due to the wheels just being too flexible. The other small parts would just droop if you picked them up at first as well.
Now that they've cooled they're not a "joke" but still surprised how soft of a PVC mantic used.
I'd have my crate by now if the delivery guy felt like doing his job. He called, said he couldn't deliver within the next hour when I was home, wasn't willing to deliver to my work address (a ten minute drive) and hung up on me when I declined the option of leaving the package at some petrol station.
Monkeysloth wrote: Turns out my issues were with how long they'd sat in a hot delivery truck (several days over the weekend) as it took about an hour for things to cool down and harden to what they're expected to be. The wagons were really bad as for about 30 min after getting the box just their own weight was enough to almost have the bottom of the cart touch the ground due to the wheels just being too flexible. The other small parts would just droop if you picked them up at first as well.
Now that they've cooled they're not a "joke" but still surprised how soft of a PVC mantic used.
As PVC goes, it is actually fairly firm - compare to the Reaper Bones, for example.
The plastic is still hot when the models are ejected from the molds - which allows a small amount of undercuts that would be impossible with either a harder plastic or a colder model - but it can leave the models warped.
But, yes, a boiling hot water bath followed by dunking the model in ice water after getting it back into shape works fine.
I am amazed at how quickly my wife and I have been getting these painted up - they are already seein use. (And the library shelves were used t attack a bunch of gnolls in my Tuesday kids Pathfinder game - a barbarian, raging, with Bull's Strength - for a total of 24 STR... the librarians were not happy - but it was better than using Burning Hands, which almost happened.
I finally wrestled mine from the clutches of the evil delivery guy (actually, I folded and agreed he drops it off at a local petrol station).
Unboxing image gallery here, took a pic of most of the parts. My set is pretty good for the most part, only the orrery, carts and thin bits like candle stands will need water bending.
I am actually a bit sorry I didn't get more walls and fences.
We've got a few exciting tidbits for today's update, showing you what's been going on behind the scenes.
1. The rulebook is almost complete and is being tested by a team of dedicated playtesters. The rules have come a long way since the alpha rules on the Kickstarter and we can't wait to get them in your hands. There are 12 scenarios in the book and some fantastic campaign rules, which will make creating your warband great fun
2. Warband cards for the Basileans, Nightstalkers, Forces of the Abyss and Northern Alliance are finished and ready for printing
3. We've been getting regular updates from the factory producing the plastic miniatures. Above you can see the latest Men at Arms sample. The little red marks are areas that we've noticed small problems with and have asked the factory to sort them out
4. Resin production - which is being handled by our own in-house team - will be complete at the end of August and the results so far have been absolutely stunning. These are definitely some of the best resin miniatures we've ever produced
5. The plastic giant is complete. Above you can see the sample we were sent to approve. We're delighted with the finish and can't wait to see this stomping around tabletops... it's absolutely MASSIVE
So, as you can see, things are progressing very nicely. In fact, things are going so well that we're planning to bring shipping forward. That's right! We initially had a November shipping date planned for the Kickstarter but thanks to the hard work of the Vanguard team, we're hoping to bring the shipping date forward to late September... excluding any last minute hiccups.
We're really excited about Vanguard here at HQ and are hoping to host a special Vanguard launch weekend in early October - so stay tuned for more details on that.
The ones with the crossguards. Those ones look ridiculous now. The other swords are also clearly the old swords shortened along one dimension, making them look stubby., but not so bad as the ones with heroic scale crossguards and Perry-historical blade length.
The swords definitely have more of a Roman gladius feel to them now. Maybe more of a Greek Xiphos, which only had a blade around 20 inches long. They don't look bad to me ( aside from the silly crossguards that are easily snipped), they are just armed with weapons primarily meant for thrusting.
Zethnar wrote: Holy gak, those swords are amazing. There's no way that's a factory mistake, the models would have to have been sent to the caster like that.
Is it actually possible for Mantic to run a kickstarter without fething over their customers in some way?
So now the only option is to snip the crossguards to make the tips look bigger even though they are exactly the same length as the spear blades? At least with the old kits you could use snipped spears as thrusting swords and the sword swords as badass swords.
Wow, they really went all out on the paint job to good effect. It is a nice miniature, and can hold its own with higher end manufacturers.
Mantic giant vs CMON Bigthulhu anyone?
Actually, a really cool diorama would be the Mantic Giant vs some absurdly large dragon from Reaper with a bunch of smaller soldiers fighting around their feet...
Finally a great paint job for a mantic miniature (giant). Amazing paint job from the master himself. This is what sells the minis. It's always better to invest in a good artist.
Modock wrote: Finally a great paint job for a mantic miniature (giant). Amazing paint job from the master himself. This is what sells the minis. It's always better to invest in a good artist.
Good sculpting and a good paint job really do pay off. If you told people this was a Mierce miniature they would be lining up to preorder it at 3x the cost for wave 73 or whatever delivered in 5 years.
Thanks for reposting those NTRabbit something happened to my post and the pictures didn't link.
It will be interesting to see what it retails for when pre-orders go up next Monday. They admitted they scaled it wrong but I'm glad they did $25 for backers (or included in the pledge) should be a great deal not to mention the Frost Giant kit for $10 more that will be an expensive kit at retail.
Great to see them continue to use Angel Giraldez for the centre piece miniatures.
That giant is giant! Looks a bit like they just up-sized him with their 3D software (judging by the giant-arrows, too-small-ballista bolts - oops!). He looks great, but I also wish he were a tad bit smaller...
lord_blackfang wrote: Way too big for normal use tho, plus it devalues much higher ranked monsters. What is up with a dragon barely reaching a giant's waist?
Yep, scale is a fail for me, it looks ridiculous compared to the rest of the range. It's be a direct choice between having the Mantic giant and no other Mantic monsters, or the other way around. (I'll go option b and use an Oghur or Oghurinthe from Mierce's Albainn kindred).
I love the look of the Giant (zero need for one), but man...I can't stop looking at how awful that dragon is. I pop in here every couple of months to see if Mantic is making something cool I want, and 90% of the time I'm put off or disappointed or leave thinking "yep, still the old Mantic...".
I swear sometime this company should just change its advertising to: "Mantic: Almost"
At least they're doing some cool terrain bits and the sci-fi range has some neat kits.
I think they made quite a progress with their recent releases, mostly scifi, like you said, but also fantasy is getting some cool minis.
But at the same time they still make a miss release, like the Nameless, IMO they look awful.
Modock wrote:I think they made quite a progress with their recent releases, mostly scifi, like you said, but also fantasy is getting some cool minis. But at the same time they still make a miss release, like the Nameless, IMO they look awful.
There are a bunch of Nameless sculpts I dig, especially the armored shell dudes and the big gun shrimp, but yea, most of that latest wave is rough. Though I'm curious how even the terribad bug eyed squid things would look with Angel at the brush ...
pancakeonions wrote:That giant is giant! Looks a bit like they just up-sized him with their 3D software (judging by the giant-arrows, too-small-ballista bolts - oops!). He looks great, but I also wish he were a tad bit smaller...
I actually really enjoy when giants are giant. Since they're such a fantasy staple, I appreciate when designers go hard and give them an air of wonder, which typically means making them straight up enormous or giving them more complex backgrounds or weird non-human touches. Sorta like the titans in Attak on Titan, that ride the uncanny valley or are flat out monstrous. Otherwise they're just big dumb people that wander around and eat smaller people.
But you know, I think you're right about the upscaled model. I originally didn't think so, because the shields strapped to him are the same size as the ogre's, but those certainly look like human shields in design. That right there's a bummer, and he would have been appreciably tall without the upscale. Still a win of a model IMO, just not perfect.
Taking it back, giant's just a win, go Mantic. Extra plus? Giants are also really good in game, unlike That Other Game where they've been a frigging joke forever
Danny76 wrote: But the shields look exactly right on him for a human sized model next to him?
Do they?
You know, I guess they do. I thought they looked too big for a human but fine for an ogre, but looks like I was right the first time NM the above, things look legit again. Even the arrows are frankly fine for heroic scale, WHFB had plenty of enormous shafts like these. Smaller would obviously be better but I don't find they break my sense of scale.
Have heard that the giant will be £24.99, preorders up on Monday.
Really looking forward to getting my Vanguard pledge now, it was one of those kickstarters that started out lacking, but really had the kitchen sink thrown at it by the end, the Giant pledge was really great value and everything is useful.
Also, delivered one month ahead of schedule in a single wave of shipping is always good!
My first warbands will simply be a case of using the Dungeon Saga minis I already have painted and take it from there, it's nice to be able to start gaming from day 1 with this.
Thats the thing Salvage. I thought you were getting swayed by untruths!
The reason it looks similar to the Ogre shield thing in his hand is the Ogre angle isn’t straight on.
Remember Norse warriors could easily heft a big shield like that (not that weedy caster ).
The bigger shield looks maybe like Basilean type size unit or something maybe..
Arrows yeah, I mean look at GW’s skeletons they had big arrows and such in them.
And big heads. And hands.
Amazballs. So glad I went for two during the kickstarter, one normal one and one with the frost giant upgrade.
At £25 would be tempted to pick up a third to build with the alt head option etc.
In regards to the dragon, it's always been small due to it being designed for use in a board game and needing to fit on a rather small base. A bunch of mantic's other monsters are already bigger than it.
More things like this please mantic, your model range continues to improve.
Dark Sphere have pre-orders listed for release on the 26th of October - £24.99 seems to be a popular choice! if I can get another giant for £20 at discount I'll probably get a second 1. At a guess the PVC minis are 2 each of the various factions PVC minis as each faction has 5 different mini types in PVC.
I was in the same boat and noticed at the end of June the pledgemanager was still open (even though the KSer updates said it was closed) so I moved from my $1 up to a $150 and added a few other things and Mantic charged my card in August. Getting my stuff like 2 months after paying -- can't complain.
The nightstalkers aren't really my thing, will probably flog them on ebay.
Undecided by the basilean's but really like the palace guard ogre.
The northern alliance and forces of the abyss stuff is full of win, can't wait to see full kings of war regiments for the new stuff.
Haven't played the game itself yet, but seems solid enough. I think the campaign system will be the deciding factor as to weather or not this really takes off as it's own thing or maybe just the occasional game played as a warm up for Kings of war proper. I really like that all of the scenerios have ways to link them to battles in KoW included in the rulebook.
There are some really great minis for every faction. Sadly, the Basilean standard bearer confirms that Mantic went with the goofy stub swords for their Basileans.
Is there a good mail order distributor in the US for Mantic stuff? I looked at ordering the Deadzone: Outbreak book from Mantic this weekend, but the shipping is insane. There's gotta be a better way to get that and some of the new KoW stuff!
DaveC wrote: Ronnie got some new Dwarf pictures in the video (1:16) . Also confirmed the rule book is £24.99 but is half price £12.49 until 27th of October.
Interesting to see the Vangaurd bundles have different stuff then what was in the KSer. Guess the difference is existing models were added to the bundles. Looking and the Northern Alliance images it really shows how badly Mantic's Dwarves hold up to their newer stuff.
Psychopomp wrote: Is there a good mail order distributor in the US for Mantic stuff? I looked at ordering the Deadzone: Outbreak book from Mantic this weekend, but the shipping is insane. There's gotta be a better way to get that and some of the new KoW stuff!
Try the Warstore. While I have not ordered from Neal recently, he's given good service in the past. Don't see KoW: Vanguard in the preorder section, so you might need to e-mail and ask if he can get it.
Psychopomp wrote: Is there a good mail order distributor in the US for Mantic stuff? I looked at ordering the Deadzone: Outbreak book from Mantic this weekend, but the shipping is insane. There's gotta be a better way to get that and some of the new KoW stuff!
Neal is probably the cheapest with gamekastle probably having the better sale prices. Fantazation will give 20% off if you spend a lot though so could be worth looking at.
Looking at Pre-orders people are only just about to get the Terraincrate stuff so it seams like we're a month or so behind in the US at least.
I'm not a fan of them as they're too blocky. Obviously a plus if you're doing a formation based game but they all look like Ram-man from the old He-man cartoon.
But that's just a preference obviously as enough people buy them to keep mantic adding new stuff to the line.
Those photos and paintjobs are really nice. Holding my breath, but could Mantic have come 'round the corner with regards to their previously fairly crappy models?
My only real issue with the dwarf range was that the metal models looked too different to the plastic stuff
The very same reason I did not like the GW Dwarfs, no consistent range with basic troops looking too different in style from the elite units and characters
For the Mantic Elves, I like them because they are the only plastic ramge out there were elves are not just humans with pointy ears
pancakeonions wrote: Those photos and paintjobs are really nice. Holding my breath, but could Mantic have come 'round the corner with regards to their previously fairly crappy models?
I'm looking forward to getting mine!
They've always been consistently inconsistent, with some very good models mixed in amongst the dross. The ratio of good>dross has been improving over the last few years though, which is a good thing.
Mantic nightstalkers for KoW in January confirmed at 12:40:
Mantic has also answered some questions and are doing daily articles about Vanguard in the Mantic Blog. Someone has realised that marketing is a good move.
Oh! I have to say those nightmare-monster are super cool, apart from the silly scarecrows. I particularly like the four-armed brutes, the dudes walking on spikes and the huge squid-thing with friends... actually I particularly like most of them! Unlike almost all other Mantic stuff they seems to be based on some quality concept designs. The Basileans are a bit boring, but ok for generic paladin-like humans. Except that hilarious butter knife/sword. The hell demons are cool and funny. I really like the Nordic guys as well, and the trolls are brutal. The ice mage and her dual axed friend are lovely even! But yes, those old dwarfs are some of the worst figures I've ever seen in wargaming, and it's quite hilarious to see them next to the new, good-looking stuff
The swords looks to be based on a spatha, which is pretty spot on for a fantasy Byzantine Empire.
Standard bearer seems to have a gladius, and a lighter weapon is fairly appropriate for the flag holder - the Ogre Standard Bearers come with an arm that has an all in one wrist mounted dagger and buckler, in place of the larger shield arm.
NTRabbit wrote: The swords looks to be based on a spatha, which is pretty spot on for a fantasy Byzantine Empire.
Standard bearer seems to have a gladius, and a lighter weapon is fairly appropriate for the flag holder - the Ogre Standard Bearers come with an arm that has an all in one wrist mounted dagger and buckler, in place of the larger shield arm.
I can't see a Spatha or a Galdius myself.
At half price I will give this a try. I just wish they would offer to sell some of their new plastics as single sprues.
NTRabbit wrote: The swords looks to be based on a spatha, which is pretty spot on for a fantasy Byzantine Empire.
Lengthwise it's similar to a spatha, but the guard are far to big. I think that's a big reason for why the swords come of as stubby
Spatha blade with a fantasy guard, gotta have some fantasy flourishes!
Putting such a huge guard on what's nominally a spatha makes it no longer a spatha though.
One of the distinctive features of a gladius and a spatha sword is that they lack almost any guard.
NTRabbit wrote: The swords looks to be based on a spatha, which is pretty spot on for a fantasy Byzantine Empire.
Standard bearer seems to have a gladius, and a lighter weapon is fairly appropriate for the flag holder - the Ogre Standard Bearers come with an arm that has an all in one wrist mounted dagger and buckler, in place of the larger shield arm.
The problem is that the plastic kit only comes with the Minecraft Gladius swords, the kind that you say are appropriate for the flag holder. Also, we all know it's not because Mantic are studiously researching Byzantium but because too many people complained about the swords being too big when the first MaA kit came out, back when miniature scale was different and everyone though true scale was the future.
It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
Sarouan wrote: It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
The cheap PVC for these really annoyed me at first and now, outside of the wagons, it doesn't bother me at all. I glued most of the fencing together to create squared farms and such as after a quick boil they all turned out nicely but don't have enough base to really stand up by themselves. The wagons are just annoying as I can't really keep the wheels straight.
Sarouan wrote: It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
The cheap PVC for these really annoyed me at first and now, outside of the wagons, it doesn't bother me at all. I glued most of the fencing together to create squared farms and such as after a quick boil they all turned out nicely but don't have enough base to really stand up by themselves. The wagons are just annoying as I can't really keep the wheels straight.
Village Square Contains:
1x Hangman's Gallows
1x Well
4x Market Stalls
2x Stocks
1x Table
Various Food / Goods
1x Ancient Stone Marker
Yeah the wheels on the cart are a write off I just replaced them with appropriately sized metal cannon wheels.
Sarouan wrote: It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
The cheap PVC for these really annoyed me at first and now, outside of the wagons, it doesn't bother me at all. I glued most of the fencing together to create squared farms and such as after a quick boil they all turned out nicely but don't have enough base to really stand up by themselves. The wagons are just annoying as I can't really keep the wheels straight.
Village Square Contains:
1x Hangman's Gallows
1x Well
4x Market Stalls
2x Stocks
1x Table
Various Food / Goods
1x Ancient Stone Marker
Yeah the wheels on the cart are a write off I just replaced them with appropriately sized metal cannon wheels.
Thanks. I can see the stone texture now that I look close, just an odd design makes it look framed in wood.
I have a couple of 3d printers, just need to sit down and mock up replacement wheels. Probably won't take very long, just haven't done it yet.
Sarouan wrote: It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
The cheap PVC for these really annoyed me at first and now, outside of the wagons, it doesn't bother me at all. I glued most of the fencing together to create squared farms and such as after a quick boil they all turned out nicely but don't have enough base to really stand up by themselves. The wagons are just annoying as I can't really keep the wheels straight.
I cheated with the wagons - and busted one of them up.
I spent a year in Kansas, back around 1972 - and it was not at all uncommon to see rotting wagons.
The trick with the unbusted wagon was to put it on a base, adding ruts and hoof prints behind it, and sinking it into green stuff. The green stuff holds the wheels in place, and keeps them from drifting outwards or sideways.
When doing the hot water bath, giving them an ice water plunge helps lock them in place as well.
I also have an ox figure from the WizKids Deep Cuts line, which makes a much better fit than the bored looking horse that Mantic provides.
Moo. (Image taken from The War Store.)
With work, it is nice enough that I may get a third - and giving that one a wagon tongue.
The Auld Grump - most used items have been the barricades.
Sarouan wrote: It's really a shame Mantic still uses this gakky material. Dirt cheap, yes, but it has a price. It's not fun to work with their despicable PVC.
Terrain is good when it's one sturdy piece, but gets awful when it's about girders or long thin stuff. It's always soft and easily bending. Barely worth the time painting, IMHO.
I separated my four boxes of Terrain Crate into two sets of two boxes. Two contain stuff that's okay to work with out of the box, or stuff that will be worth trying to fix with hot water.
The other two boxes are the stuff I'll probably never realistically have time to fix because they're so badly warped, and thus, never do anything with in any form. Out to the shed they go in case I change my mind later, after I've done the first batches of stuff.
The other two boxes are the stuff I'll probably never realistically have time to fix because they're so badly warped, and thus, never do anything with in any form. Out to the shed they go in case I change my mind later, after I've done the first batches of stuff.
Yes, that's what I did too. Since it's dirt cheap, you don't mind it too much, but it's really a shame I won't be using the candlesticks because they're completely unusable in their current, warped stated.
You get what you pay for, and I can already see in that new set what will be really usable and what will end up being garbage because of the material they use.
An old trick from Bones generation 1 is to heat a paperclip/metal rod with a flame and just push it into the PVC part to strengthen it. Works really well but you have to get the metal pretty hot.
Just to add to the above there is a fourth market set that mixes the cart with the stalls.
There's a few more sets but they are all stuff that was done in the KS just arranged into different packs.
I might pick up some more tents and the like to make proper battlefield campsites. The smaller tents and accessories work well in any setting there's nothing on them that restricts them to a fantasy setting.
So, I looked over the free pdf and like what I see but Mantic's £ to $ conversion seems a bit excessive. Plus their shipping is a tad pricey. Anyone know a good US friendly discounter for these?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
Looks like Mantic is really desperate to get attention for their skirmish game and not get crushed and left behind by GW new games' steamroller.
But yeah, of course they are upset. That's why you should never back a Mantic Kickstarter ever again - just wait for retail or people selling on ebay, you'll get it cheaper anyway.
Only just noticed this now - details of the KoW Nightstalker Army releases
January 2019
The Nightstalker Army includes 40 hard plastic Spectres/Scarecrows, 5 resin and plastic Shadowhounds, 3 plastic Butchers, 1 plastic Horror, 1 resin Shade, and bases. MSRP is £59.99 $89.99
The Nightstalker Mega Army includes 30 hard plastic Spectres/Scarecrows, 10 resin and plastic Phantoms, 10 resin and plastic Reapers, 6 plastic Butchers, 1 plastic Horror, 1 resin and plastic Terror, and bases. MSRP is £99.99 $149.99.
The Nightstalker Needlefangs Regiment includes 3 metal Needlefangs Swarms with 40mm square bases. MSRP is £14.99 $19.99.
The Nightstalker Shadowhulk includes 1 multipart resin and plastic Shadowhulk with 75mm square base. MSRP is £29.99 $49.99.
The Nightstalker Fiends Regiment includes 3 multipart resin fiends with 50mm square bases. MSRP is £24.99 $39.99.
It looks like the Terror is a plastic Nameless Goliath with Resin conversion parts and the Shadowhulk is a plastic giant with alternate bits. PVC minis from Vanguard get some resin conversion bits as well.
Taarnak wrote: So, I looked over the free pdf and like what I see but Mantic's £ to $ conversion seems a bit excessive. Plus their shipping is a tad pricey. Anyone know a good US friendly discounter for these?
The Warstore tends to carry their stuff.
Also there was an update today that shipping should start Friday which means, unless the warehouse works weekends, Monday. Still good to hear.
Edit: Wow the Giant waist and feet adornments really make that look out of place with the heads and arms. Still, can understand why Mantic want to use that giant as much as possible.
Could anybody with the Walking Dead dice list the die facings for the 3 colors of dice? They're supposedly the same as the Power Dice except the Vanguard dice have swords instead of pips
Yeah they are going to milk that giant kit for all it’s worth. The waist is what it is but the feet are separate from below the knee so they could have done something there to make it more distinct.
DaveC wrote: Yeah they are going to milk that giant kit for all it’s worth. The waist is what it is but the feet are separate from below the knee so they could have done something there to make it more distinct.
the Shields decor should be replaceable too with something as well.
DaveC wrote: Yeah they are going to milk that giant kit for all it’s worth. The waist is what it is but the feet are separate from below the knee so they could have done something there to make it more distinct.
the Shields decor should be replaceable too with something as well.
The shields are molded to the body. But actually the waist comes in a few parts but at what point do you stop swapping out parts and just end up with a totally new mini I guess they decided to stop at head and arms. The Frost giant ended up being a huge chunk of resin after all the swap outs and they probably wanted to avoid that again.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
This is the internet and, moreover, Kickstarter. Of course some people are upset about something, but Mantic is a company and KS is a way to fund projects not to massage egos and bend to the wants of a few people with access to a keyboard and some spare time.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
This is the internet and, moreover, Kickstarter. Of course some people are upset about something, but Mantic is a company and KS is a way to fund projects not to massage egos and bend to the wants of a few people with access to a keyboard and some spare time.
And being the internet, other people will carry water for companies all day long, pooling even the most legitimate complaints in with the most egregious outliers of unreasonable.
lord_blackfang wrote: I just received two copies of Deep Madness, so that's my Nightstalkers all sorted.
Same reason I KS'd that back when, although I'm more interested in actually playing the game now And have my own NS thing in the works ...
Unexpected KOW updates are unexpected! Terror looks great (and HUGEly wide), Fiends look like a solid send-up and pretty reminiscent of what people have been using for them. Also something-something Slaanesh fiends? Shulk isn't so bad, I think it'll play, although knowing the feet are separate it is a bit disappointing they didn't swap them for gribbly weirdness too.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
This is the internet and, moreover, Kickstarter. Of course some people are upset about something, but Mantic is a company and KS is a way to fund projects not to massage egos and bend to the wants of a few people with access to a keyboard and some spare time.
And being the internet, other people will carry water for companies all day long, pooling even the most legitimate complaints in with the most egregious outliers of unreasonable.
But is it a legitimate concern?
Looking at what is being complained about - no, it really isn't.
The KS backers are still getting it at a lower price than retail list, and are still getting it before stores.
Complaining that other people are getting the same price break - on a single item - that you got?
For a limited time?
Yes, that's just internet whinging*.
Now, complaining about that Shadow Hulk? That is worth complaining about.
Still, could be worse - they might have used their plastic dragon as the basis**.
Fortunately there are plenty of nasty miniatures to use in it's place - I think I would go with the Shub Niggurath figure from the Reaper Bones line - and Nyarlathotep*** from that same line would also be a good fit, when it comes out - and either is a lot better than sticking a blobby head on a giant's neck....
The Auld Grump - sorry Mantic - it looks like a giant with blobby head and hands added by a first time modeler. I might could do something with the parts, but gluing them to the giant would not one one of them.
* And let's be honest - most people backed the KS for the minis, not the rules. Minis don't care what rules you use them for - and my wife already called dibs on that 'floaty tentacle thing' for her Pathfinder game. ('Floaty tentacle thing' is her words - her actual Vanguard army is going to be Goblins - with none of the figures from Mantic, as far as I know. We have a lot of gobbos.)
** I kind of like the dragon - in spite of it not being a very good model.
Yeah I hope they dump that idea for the Shadow Hulk and go with something else, it really doesn't work. At least reusing the Dragon had merit, on the basis that a dragon is a dragon is a dragon, no matter who you put in the saddle.
Hahahahahah yea it isn't half bad Possibly because the worst problem with the dragon is its neck? And properly scaled the shulk head 'fixes' / overwhelms that.
From today's blog post it covers the points cost for the rest of the Abyssals not in the starter list - no idea how much the non common equipment is but they are unlikely to be too many points.
Seductress Command Healing Potion 50
Tormentor Command Blade of Slashing 48
Despoiler Large Heavy Weapon 40 (Heavy Weapon is 3 pts)
Warlock Spellcaster Ophidian Book of Secrets 43
Succubus Warrior 14
Monkeysloth wrote: Nothern Alliance stuff is great. Main reason I backed the KSer and happy Mantic has managed to deliver stuff that looks as good as the concept art.
Dunno, I'm not fond of that "put it all together" side of the faction. Individually, they look much better.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
This is the internet and, moreover, Kickstarter. Of course some people are upset about something, but Mantic is a company and KS is a way to fund projects not to massage egos and bend to the wants of a few people with access to a keyboard and some spare time.
And being the internet, other people will carry water for companies all day long, pooling even the most legitimate complaints in with the most egregious outliers of unreasonable.
But is it a legitimate concern?
Looking at what is being complained about - no, it really isn't.
The KS backers are still getting it at a lower price than retail list, and are still getting it before stores.
Complaining that other people are getting the same price break - on a single item - that you got?
For a limited time?
Yes, that's just internet whinging
Precisely. But also, this being the internet, you can't criticise unwarranted criticism without it being suggested you're some kind of shill.
Unless it's the Dakka Infinity thread.
In which case god help you if you point out a fault.
NTRabbit wrote: At least reusing the Dragon had merit, on the basis that a dragon is a dragon is a dragon, no matter who you put in the saddle.
- Salvage
I stand corrected - that is better than using the giant.
The Auld Grump
It’s better...But two bads don’t make a good....or something like that.
In this case, it kind of does.
The somewhat malformed looking dragon body, with the definitely deformed looking S H head... work okay together.
But, I have Nyarlathotep coming, and already have Shub Niggurath, so I am good for Shadow Hulks.
*EDIT* My other Shadow Hulk - and the one I already have, or... my wife has, anyway....
I love the giant all to pieces, but not a good choice for this model.
The Auld Grump
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my good lady wife just suggested using one of the plush Cthulhu dolls as the Shadow Hulk... I am picturing the one with a Santa hat....
The Auld Grump - technically, the stuffed Cthulhus belong to our two year old daughter - but lately she has been spending all her time with the teddy bears we got her from Build-a-Bear during their 'Pay the Child's Age' sales.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: @TheAuldGrump: How big is that Shub Niggurath? What size base is your wife using for it?
I think she managed to fit it on a 4 inch by 4 inch base, but I'm not sure.
Her primary use is in her Pathfinder/Eberron game.
The Auld Grump
Thanks. It's something to consider, although I like the looks of Nyarlathotep better.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Bones Shub Niggurath is pretty huge, about as massive as Bones Cthulhu, but with a much wider footprint.
That's pretty big. When I go to the FLGS this weekend, I'll take a close look at Cthulhu with an eye to basing. But its early days yet as KoW:V has not shipped yet.
Bones Cthulhu's built-in base is about 4 inches by 3.25 inches, depending on where you measure since it's not perfectly square or circular. His tail and arms overhang that by a lot though.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: And some of the KS commenters are very unhappy about the half price (time limited preorder) on the rule book
This is the internet and, moreover, Kickstarter. Of course some people are upset about something, but Mantic is a company and KS is a way to fund projects not to massage egos and bend to the wants of a few people with access to a keyboard and some spare time.
And being the internet, other people will carry water for companies all day long, pooling even the most legitimate complaints in with the most egregious outliers of unreasonable.
I understand the annoyance but I would rather Mantic give away a million free rulebooks and have a much better chance of people actually playing the game than filing the rulebook on the bookshelf with all the other games that noone plays.
The Vanguard Dwarfs are a February 2019 release along with an equipment deck and some Mercenaries. 1 new warband and per quarter and downloadable cards for existing minis.
I understand the annoyance but I would rather Mantic give away a million free rulebooks and have a much better chance of people actually playing the game than filing the rulebook on the bookshelf with all the other games that noone plays.
As if throwing away rulebooks was guarantee your game would not suffer that fate, really. You know it will end the same, anyway. Too many med/fan skirmish miniature wargames on the market are asking the gamer's attention, and it's really nothing special in itself. The miniatures will end in KoW armies for the few people still playing, and only the KoW players will really try and play it 'cause they are already sold to the cause. Outside of the Mantic fanbase (and UK, to be honest), it's negligible.
I understand the annoyance but I would rather Mantic give away a million free rulebooks and have a much better chance of people actually playing the game than filing the rulebook on the bookshelf with all the other games that noone plays.
As if throwing away rulebooks was guarantee your game would not suffer that fate, really. You know it will end the same, anyway. Too many med/fan skirmish miniature wargames on the market are asking the gamer's attention, and it's really nothing special in itself. The miniatures will end in KoW armies for the few people still playing, and only the KoW players will really try and play it 'cause they are already sold to the cause. Outside of the Mantic fanbase (and UK, to be honest), it's negligible.
In which case it is still not a good reason to whinge that Mantic is selling the books at the same price as the KS....
*EDIT* The best way to get any game played is to go out and run it.
Not doing it as much as I used to - but I used to run games at hobby stores, to keep games alive - mostly Mordheim. (Still my favorite GW game.) But KoW sees play about four times a month - swapping off games for young players with games for older players. (Youngest is ten - she was nine when she began. Sam plays Abyssal Dwarfs, because her father had Chaos Dwarfs.)
Free rules help - but going out and running the game does much, much more.
The Auld Grump - the free rules for Mordheim are still keeping the game going.
TheAuldGrump wrote: In which case it is still not a good reason to whinge that Mantic is selling the books at the same price as the KS....
Wait.. is it the same price as the KS, or cheaper than the KS?
If it's cheaper, than I think it's a legit gripe. If it's the same price, then I got my wires crossed and I'll very openly admit that I was wrong due to misinterpreting the facts. I've got no issue if it's the same price as the KS.
Not doing it as much as I used to - but I used to run games at hobby stores, to keep games alive - mostly Mordheim. (Still my favorite GW game.) But KoW sees play about four times a month - swapping off games for young players with games for older players. (Youngest is ten - she was nine when she began. Sam plays Abyssal Dwarfs, because her father had Chaos Dwarfs.)
Yes, in UK, Mantic's turf. They're still doing good here. Once you get outside of UK, it quickly fades to nothing. That's the unfortunate truth, no matter how much Ronnie would try to brag otherwise.
Free rules help - but going out and running the game does much, much more.
Good luck competing with the other skirmish med/fan games, then.
The Auld Grump - the free rules for Mordheim are still keeping the game going.
Because Mordheim was made and officially supported by GW at that time. That's the main reason - the other is that there wasn't the same competition on the market like nowadays. You can't compare with Mantic on that matter - they're just not fighting in the same league at all.
The Auld Grump - the free rules for Mordheim are still keeping the game going.
Because Mordheim was made and officially supported by GW at that time. That's the main reason - the other is that there wasn't the same competition on the market like nowadays. You can't compare with Mantic on that matter - they're just not fighting in the same league at all.
What manure. GW might have made Mordheim, but like all the late 90's SGs the idea they "supported" it after the first couple of years is sheer farce. They might have left (some of) the model lines up for sale on the website(for a few years) and occasionally published the pseudo-fan rules & sculpts that staff members who loved the game did when they had some time free, but the reason Mordheim lasted all these years is the community. GW's credit begins and ends with having the nouse to hire Tuomas Pirinen and allow the art & studio teams to go nuts with the basic concept of a WHF skirmish game, since then it's been us plebs writing supplements and converting models and running local campaigns, just like all the other first-round SGs, and if we hadn't been slogging down clubs and stores giving up our time to organise and run things for long enough to build up local groups Mordheim would be a fond memory today not a system still being played all over the world.
Also, people forget that GW weren't all that huge back in those days either. They were growing, sure, and were well known, but the idea they had no competitors especially outside the UK is revisionist history, not to mention that the market as a whole was smaller prior to mass internet access, crowd funding, and GW scoring the license to make a tie-in game for the biggest fantasy film franchise in the world. The "supported games" crowd drift around to whatever the new Big Thing is, but whether a game lasts is down to it catching on enough to gain a dedicated fanbase who're willing to put in the effort to make it last, and there's no reason Mantic's stuff can't manage that if it's good.
What manure. GW might have made Mordheim, but like all the late 90's SGs the idea they "supported" it after the first couple of years is sheer farce.
Compare with the number of years and everything Mantic did while "supporting" KoW. GW would still be doing much more than Mantic in that field, because of their sheer size alone - not even talking about the fact they have their own shops advertising solely their products. And yes, for a while, Mordheim products were sold and even played in these stores as well. It was really easy to recruit during these times, and I have no doubt the main reason there are still Mordheim players around is because GW, no matter how little you think they did to support the line, still did what only GW can do. Get my point now ?
Not doing it as much as I used to - but I used to run games at hobby stores, to keep games alive - mostly Mordheim. (Still my favorite GW game.) But KoW sees play about four times a month - swapping off games for young players with games for older players. (Youngest is ten - she was nine when she began. Sam plays Abyssal Dwarfs, because her father had Chaos Dwarfs.)
Yes, in UK, Mantic's turf. They're still doing good here. Once you get outside of UK, it quickly fades to nothing. That's the unfortunate truth, no matter how much Ronnie would try to brag otherwise.
Free rules help - but going out and running the game does much, much more.
Good luck competing with the other skirmish med/fan games, then.
The Auld Grump - the free rules for Mordheim are still keeping the game going.
Because Mordheim was made and officially supported by GW at that time. That's the main reason - the other is that there wasn't the same competition on the market like nowadays. You can't compare with Mantic on that matter - they're just not fighting in the same league at all.
Thirty (very) odd KoW players in local group, which is not UK.
There is a stronger presence than Sigmar was enjoying until last year - now it is about on par.
40K is kicking both their arses - but a few years ago it was doing better than 40K. (Rountree deserves the praise people drop on him.)
Kow is doing better than WARMACHINE, currently. (Privateer messed things up royally for themselves.)
Part of the reason why we have thirty odd players is that we have thirty players - which makes it easier for people to find people to play against.
Having a strong presence makes it easier to continue having a strong presence.
Eight of those thirty odd are between the ages of ten and sixteen. (Crossing over from my Pathfinder game.) Seven own their own armies - or borrow them from parents.
When we started in 2014 there was a total of eight players - we hit the current number last year. Two new kids are interested - we will see if they can armies together. (I allow cardstock armies in the kids game, using standees glued to a properly sized base.)
Locally, KoW is not dead, but is also not dominating the landscape like it was a few years ago. The current group isn't shrinking - but it is no longer growing nearly as fast.
What manure. GW might have made Mordheim, but like all the late 90's SGs the idea they "supported" it after the first couple of years is sheer farce.
Compare with the number of years and everything Mantic did while "supporting" KoW. GW would still be doing much more than Mantic in that field, because of their sheer size alone - not even talking about the fact they have their own shops advertising solely their products. And yes, for a while, Mordheim products were sold and even played in these stores as well. It was really easy to recruit during these times, and I have no doubt the main reason there are still Mordheim players around is because GW, no matter how little you think they did to support the line, still did what only GW can do. Get my point now ?
I got your point the first time, I just don't agree it's valid. Mordheim is still around because it's a great game in a unique setting, and that would be true regardless of who first published it and when. Once you pass a certain threshold of people knowing about you whether you're a big company or a small company and how long you support the product only have an impact on how quickly something will grow, not whether it will grow at all, or whether it will stick around after you're done with it. Mantic are smaller than GW, but they're not some bloke publishing home-made rules on a Yahoo group, they have sufficient reach to ensure enough people will hear about and pick up their games that whether or not they grow and last is much more down to people being willing to put in the effort to get things going in their own area.
Put it another way - if Mordheim had been boring garbage, the fact GW published it and supported it for a brief time wouldn't mean anything, it would have died the moment they stopped. If Mantic's stuff is good enough, it won't matter that they don't have a chain of retail stores, it'll find an audience and stick around through word of mouth.
GW doesn't make a single game that could stand on its own merits without the big brand name, and never has. If any GW game were published by a different company, it would be dead on arrival. Mordheim still exists because people are desperate to cling on to the GW name at all costs.
lord_blackfang wrote: GW doesn't make a single game that could stand on its own merits without the big brand name, and never has. If any GW game were published by a different company, it would be dead on arrival. Mordheim still exists because people are desperate to cling on to the GW name at all costs.
More to the setting than anything else. Could you use other skirmish supplements to play in Mordheim? Yeah. But you would have to adapt everything. Why do that when theres something allready done? That level of skirmish play is very much narrative so it does not matter how better other games are if their setting isn't that appealing.
Mordheim and Necromunda are Skirmish but they are a absolutely different kind of skirmish experience than Killteam, Malifaux or Infinity.
At the end of the day I play warhammer games because I love warhammer and the games are fun for me. I play LOTR because I love LOTR and I love the game.
Put it another way - if Mordheim had been boring garbage, the fact GW published it and supported it for a brief time wouldn't mean anything, it would have died the moment they stopped.
Rules in Mordheim are awful, period. The reason why people still play it is because of nostalgia, the GW Old World vibe and the campaign rules. It's a horrible balanced game, and yet it doesn't matter to people who play. This is the proof that balance alone doesn't matter, that's not why people keep playing.
If Mantic's stuff is good enough, it won't matter that they don't have a chain of retail stores, it'll find an audience and stick around through word of mouth.
It won't because Vanguard is a bland game, in a bland universe (Mantica) from a bland company that doesn't have the manpower to support the game on long term like GW. In five years, you won't hear about it anymore and it will join the piles of other dead med/fan skirmish games. It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.
Mordheim is a narrative game, yes? Which means it appeals to narrative players who are notorious for caring about the setting and not giving a damn about balance? Hmmm. Perhaps chasing balance is not the key to developing a game that will survive long term.
Mantic is developing their setting still. With their adventure game book and their board games, they are really adding a lot to the Mantica experience. If they can create a distinctive feeling for their IP and its many games, I believe that would count more than anything towards keeping gamers coming back, to recapture the feeling.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Mordheim is a narrative game, yes? Which means it appeals to narrative players who are notorious for caring about the setting and not giving a damn about balance? Hmmm. Perhaps chasing balance is not the key to developing a game that will survive long term.
It certainly can be played as such, but I still play it with a group of players who also don't mind to play it quite competitively (and some don't care much about giving a name to their miniatures). Which of course gives quite silly results, yet the people keep playing it for so many years.
You really seem to underestimate the power of nostalgia and the work that GW made at that time - also the Specialist team behind the Town Cryer and all the people who were on the Specialist Games forums.
Mantic is developing their setting still. With their adventure game book and their board games, they are really adding a lot to the Mantica experience. If they can create a distinctive feeling for their IP and its many games, I believe that would count more than anything towards keeping gamers coming back, to recapture the feeling.
They won't. They're unable to do that with Mantica. They just don't have the manpower nor the spark GW has. They don't have the size nor the logistic needed to do a proper work in that field.
Their fantasy setting was always the weakest one. It's a pale copy of WFB that desperatly tries not to look the generic universe it is. They can't hide the fact everything they made from the beginning was merely proxies from the Big G company, and they have real difficulties to cut the ties to that past.
Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis
From Ronnie
All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..
Mantic is dead set to deliver my package on the one week I will be away from home, as is tradition. Element Games has also been sitting on an order for over a month so they can ship it right before I leave.
Sarouan wrote: It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.
It it never wanted to have it
GW never had something similar to Vanguard except those RB Appendix Skirmish games no one played.
Mortheim lived from the unique campaign rules, same as Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda and the fact that GW had no other small scale games for gheir IP.
Pic up games ommunities never lasted long for those
That Mortheim is still played has more to do with the old world setting and that specific Mortheim tables, if a community had them, were a lot of work to build and not really suited for other games.
I still play Battlefleet Gothic from time to time. Firestorm Armada was big in the local club and is still played by some, it never took the spot of BFG campaigns (but pic up games)
DaveC wrote: Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis
From Ronnie
All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..
The Snow troll looks very similar to the bones hill giant. Are the prices very different? The reaper one I think is around $9.00.
DaveC wrote: Snow Troll PVC production model from Twitter the detail held up well but that’s never really been an issue with larger minis
From Ronnie
All the rule book only pledges and plastic giants have left the building and the 2 player sets will be out today plus add-ons only will be gone this week. By Friday we will be on to the giant pledges...they'll take at least all next week and that's when the notification will be coming out like waterfalls..
The Snow troll looks very similar to the bones hill giant. Are the prices very different? The reaper one I think is around $9.00.
I was thinking that the Snow Troll looks like Wreck It Ralph....
That Mortheim is still played has more to do with the old world setting and that specific Mordheim tables, if a community had them, were a lot of work to build and not really suited for other games.
I very much beg to differ - my groups tend to work off of cardstock terrain, built from PDFs - and most often the terrain goes home with whomever made it for the campaign.
It is mostly the campaign rules that keep me coming back, and which leads me to dust off the rules on a bi-yearly basis. (Alternating with Oldcromunda.)
Some of the kids I taught the game, back when the boxed Mordheim game was in stores, are now playing it with their kids.
Still having trouble believing it's been that long....
But - I agree entirely that the focus of Vanguard is entirely different - Mordheim was about individual bands of treasure hunters, fighting over warp stone.
Vanguard is about small units that operate in support of larger armies - skirmishers, recon forces, and dirty trick units.
Sarouan wrote: It won't because Vanguard is a bland game, in a bland universe (Mantica) from a bland company that doesn't have the manpower to support the game on long term like GW. In five years, you won't hear about it anymore and it will join the piles of other dead med/fan skirmish games. It has nothing Mordheim had, that's the sad truth.
Then what the feth are you doing here? "Bland" is entirely subjective. Putting aside that we only have an introduction so far. I like it because the rules are good, I find games that are designed well fun. You apparently don't care as much about that.
Which is fine. Really. GW are better at making more flashy games, albiet with worse rules writing. If that's more to your taste then support them instead, have fun playing Sigmar.
Mantic are filling a difference niche to GW, which I think is fantastic!
A: Mantic don't have to take on the giant head on (or really take it on), because their target markets are not quite the same.
B: players with different tastes can play different games, rather than one game trying to please everyone.
They won't. They're unable to do that with Mantica. They just don't have the manpower nor the spark GW has. They don't have the size nor the logistic needed to do a proper work in that field.
Their fantasy setting was always the weakest one. It's a pale copy of WFB that desperatly tries not to look the generic universe it is. They can't hide the fact everything they made from the beginning was merely proxies from the Big G company, and they have real difficulties to cut the ties to that past.
I don't think it's a copy at all. They're both fantasy settings with a lot conflict, well, that's the point. Two things designed for a similar purpose tend to similar. After that, Mantica isn't significantly more similar to The Old World than it is to Shannara, Middle Earth or Faerun. Don't see the "desperate" attempts to look like not primarily a backdrop for games, unless you are referring to putting some eork into it? I actually like Mantica because it's generic old school fantasy, it's a place for fantasy battles like I read about growing up; in that genre I love.
Don't think Mantic are trying to hide their beginnings (don't see why they should be vocal about it either though), more like just moving on. At this stage it appears that Mantic is doing thier own thing in thier own niche and putting more and more into thier own IP.
Mantic have been quite obvious and unapologetic about favouring thier own IP for Vanguard.
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Let 's see what happens with the Northern Alliance. They and the Nightstalkers are the factions that most interest me in KOW:V. I'm also eager to field the Northern Alliance in standard KOW.
As for Basilea as fantasy Constantinople, I'd actually like a bit more. Just one new unit for them: horse archers. The Sisters P-Lancers need a screening unit. I've not played as Basileans, but against them, and I've shot the P-Lancers off the field all but once (snake-eyes on the Nerve roll).
StygianBeach wrote: Mantic's fluff may be disappointing, but I have ordered Vanguard for it's rules not it's fluff.
Yep, same here. Mantic’s figs are meh at best. The Mantica “setting” might as well not exist. But Mantic has made some fun games and Vanguard looks like it will be another fun game.
Oh they've done a dirty. As I suspected they might.
Astute players might have noticed some glaring omissions from the free warbands pdf faction lists. The Basilean warband list, for example, does not contain an entry for Men at Arms (or the Ogre, Abbess or Dictator).
Stats cards for these will come with the miniatures but they have been intentionally omitted from the rulebook (as the rulebook warband lists are the same as those in the free pdf).
That's slightly annoying as I have a number of fine miniatures from other manufacturers. Mantic have always supported a policy of allowing you to use whatever miniatures you want in their game but now they're holding model profiles back to be supplied with specific figures of their own.
A smart business move but still one that's probably going to be pretty unpopular.
(note I've split the post into paragraphs to make it easier to read from it's original form as a block of text)
can anybody else with the new book comment on this? as it seems a real pain to have this new shiney rulebook already missing things
RULEBOOK – Kickstarter backers will receive a rulebook, containing core rules, background material, a range of varied scenarios and details for character progression in a campaign, along with starter warband lists for Mantic armies
And update 3
we're now pleased to say that the starter warband lists for all the Mantic armies below WILL be in the main Vanguard rulebook.
It looks to me like they included what they promised starter warband rules not full warband rules while it’s a pain to have to rules spread out and not in the main rulebook we got the starter warbands per the KS.
The Basileans have the new M@A and list them as crossbowmen as well. The starter warband rules only cover equipping them with crossbows so they are covered just not all options. I guess you could give them a spear for +1 point but what about if the 10 you get are all you need they should have put all options in for the M@A. Edit: actually KS backers probably get the full M@A cards anyway so it only affects those who get the Rulebook for use with other minis.
That is super weird for a company whose success it based on other companies' miniatures. I get that you don't get them in the downloadable free rules, but in the main rule book as well? Huh.
RULEBOOK – Kickstarter backers will receive a rulebook, containing core rules, background material, a range of varied scenarios and details for character progression in a campaign, along with starter warband lists for Mantic armies
And update 3
we're now pleased to say that the starter warband lists for all the Mantic armies below WILL be in the main Vanguard rulebook.
It looks to me like they included what they promised starter warband rules not full warband rules while it’s a pain to have to rules spread out and not in the main rulebook we got the starter warbands per the KS.
The Basileans have the new M@A and list them as crossbowmen as well. The starter warband rules only cover equipping them with crossbows so they are covered just not all options. I guess you could give them a spear for +1 point but what about if the 10 you get are all you need they should have put all options in for the M@A.
Edited after a check of the starters on the store
ah so no sneaky changes, fair enough Mantic, cheers DaveC
Yep and just to add as I edited in above KS backers get all the M@A rule cards if they got the minis so actually they aren’t affected by the Rulebook containing only crossbowmen. The only people really affected are those that got the Rulebook to use with other minis but the KS is clear that only starter warbands rules are included.
I can understand Mantic wanting to move to selling their own minis with the game, the buy in for a skirmish game is lower than a war game so where they give leeway in mass battles they’d rather their own minis get used for skirmish
I can understand Mantic wanting to move to selling their own minis with the game, the buy in for a skirmish game is lower than a war game so where they give leeway in mass battles they’d rather their own minis get used for skirmish
That's actually the reason why KoW brought barely nothing to Mantic Games in terms in sales : because of making units without having the miniatures to play them and thus "forcing" players to go buy in other companies. Their first extension with entries clearly designed to allow WFB players to come in with their GW armies showed it the most.
That, and the fact their miniatures were crappy (and like Manchu said, even the recent ones are "meh" at best). So even more reasons not to buy them.
Let's put it bluntly : selling rules alone isn't enough to bring money in Mantic's purses. That's why they make a discount sale on rulebooks.
So yeah, it makes sense they try to "force" people buy their miniatures to play the game. Still, I don't have faith in the future of this game or Mantic really supporting it on a long term view.
With KoW, it was: use your existing collection to play our rule set.
Yeah, it was a mistake. Otherwise, I agree with you, except that I'm not optimistic about the wheel turning - won't be enough and thinking it's a bit too late with GW being strong again and the overloaded miniature/game market, IMHO.
I can understand Mantic wanting to move to selling their own minis with the game, the buy in for a skirmish game is lower than a war game so where they give leeway in mass battles they’d rather their own minis get used for skirmish
That's actually the reason why KoW brought barely nothing to Mantic Games in terms in sales : because of making units without having the miniatures to play them and thus "forcing" players to go buy in other companies. Their first extension with entries clearly designed to allow WFB players to come in with their GW armies showed it the most.
That, and the fact their miniatures were crappy (and like Manchu said, even the recent ones are "meh" at best). So even more reasons not to buy them.
Let's put it bluntly : selling rules alone isn't enough to bring money in Mantic's purses. That's why they make a discount sale on rulebooks.
So yeah, it makes sense they try to "force" people buy their miniatures to play the game. Still, I don't have faith in the future of this game or Mantic really supporting it on a long term view.
Its funny because around here more people used Mantic models to play WHFB than to play KoW
Because the minis are not good enough? Or the setting is too generic? Or the prices are already too steep, considering the first two questions? I see all of these things as problems for Mantic. But nonetheless Deadzone is a very solid game and Vanguard is a nice port of Deadzone into the fantasy genre. I’m not sure it has any real competition, TBH.
Manchu wrote: Because the minis are not good enough? Or the setting is too generic? Or the prices are already too steep, considering the first two questions? I see all of these things as problems for Mantic.
It's a combination of lots of things, but I think not being able to buy all the units from Mantic's store alone and Mantic being just unable to produce new stuff for KoW while they keep making new games (because their team is simply not big enough) are also playing a role.
To me, the Brotherhood and Varangur's "disappearance" in Mantica's background following the campaign aren't surprising. The "not Bretonnia" and "not Chaos" were actually begging for buying miniatures from GW or historical kits, honestly. Apart from a certain hero, there was litterally nothing to buy on Mantic's shop for those. That it came into "Northern Alliance" was to be expected so that Mantic can take it as their own (and I wouldn't be surprised if the "not Chaos Gods" varangur god was just written off at some point in the future. They needed to redo the concept, if they want to keep it at all.
But nonetheless Deadzone is a very solid game and Vanguard is a nice port of Deadzone into the fantasy genre. I’m not sure it has any real competition, TBH.
It has plenty of competition, seriously. Deadzone is just another generic skirmish SF game, even boardgames are competing with it in more than one aspect. The rules may be nice and all for its defenders, but that is pretty much it. You don't see it played that much in the stores and clubs around the world, after all. Not even talking about GW's Kill Team.
I didn’t mean that Deadzone has no competition. I meant Vanguard won’t. Frostgrave has been the king of this niche for lack of competition for the past several years. AoS Skirmish is barely a real thing. Other fantasy skirmish sets are either defined by in-built limitations (e.g., Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game) or just non-starters at market.
I can understand Mantic wanting to move to selling their own minis with the game, the buy in for a skirmish game is lower than a war game so where they give leeway in mass battles they’d rather their own minis get used for skirmish
That's actually the reason why KoW brought barely nothing to Mantic Games in terms in sales : because of making units without having the miniatures to play them and thus "forcing" players to go buy in other companies. Their first extension with entries clearly designed to allow WFB players to come in with their GW armies showed it the most.
That, and the fact their miniatures were crappy (and like Manchu said, even the recent ones are "meh" at best). So even more reasons not to buy them.
Let's put it bluntly : selling rules alone isn't enough to bring money in Mantic's purses. That's why they make a discount sale on rulebooks.
So yeah, it makes sense they try to "force" people buy their miniatures to play the game. Still, I don't have faith in the future of this game or Mantic really supporting it on a long term view.
You seem to be very anti Mantic, and don't want to see the interesting bits about mantics various properties when they are presented.
Manchu wrote: I didn’t mean that Deadzone has no competition. I meant Vanguard won’t. Frostgrave has been the king of this niche for lack of competition for the past several years. AoS Skirmish is barely a real thing. Other fantasy skirmish sets are either defined by in-built limitations (e.g., Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game) or just non-starters at market.
Don't follow it much but isn't Shadesphere also getting pretty popular?
Manchu wrote: I didn’t mean that Deadzone has no competition. I meant Vanguard won’t. Frostgrave has been the king of this niche for lack of competition for the past several years. AoS Skirmish is barely a real thing. Other fantasy skirmish sets are either defined by in-built limitations (e.g., Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game) or just non-starters at market.
Don't follow it much but isn't Shadesphere also getting pretty popular?
Seems to be (or at least, GW thinks it is enough to plan out and release a second season's worth of cards and warbands), but I'd argue that Shadespire and Frostgrave/Ghost Archipelago are at the opposite ends of fantasy skirmish gaming. Frostgrave is all about campaigns and customzing your wizard, warbands and miniatures. Shadespire is the opposite - super competitive with little personal customization beyond building the deck of cards you play with. They satisfy two different audiences.
The rested guys are all on sprues. There is significant bending of spear shafts. The Basilean plastics look great...except for their swords. All the bases are square for some reason. Blain is 62 points and gets a chance to terrify one enemy mini per turn. Also, his spear shoots piercing beams.
I didn't get to see much else before the box had to go into the closet. I have to wait for my Birthday to play with the toys.
You seem to be very anti Mantic, and don't want to see the interesting bits about mantics various properties when they are presented.
Oh I do know them. I followed KoW for years before, and I watched all the other games from their birth to their newer editions. Hell I even played Deadzone when it came first. Mantic knows to make games, but they don't have the manpower to support them like GW, that's all. All of their games have nice appealing rules, not perfect of course, but the trouble is...there is always something lacking. Be it background or soul, I don't know what you want to call it, they always miss the spark to get really at the top.
Vanguard isn't different here. It lacks something to me. And if you think Frostgrave is the only competitor in this niche...you really didn't look far.
And yes, I'm very frustrated with Mantic. They keep releasing their crappy material and make it look like it's gold. I hope you're aware the price they're asking for Vanguard miniatures are far from being the "cheap" ones they were known for when they sold their proxies for WFB. Yes, they have more details...but it's the same crappy PVC material and they're really not that great in the end.
Manchu wrote: I didn’t mean that Deadzone has no competition. I meant Vanguard won’t. Frostgrave has been the king of this niche for lack of competition for the past several years. AoS Skirmish is barely a real thing. Other fantasy skirmish sets are either defined by in-built limitations (e.g., Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game) or just non-starters at market.
Don't follow it much but isn't Shadesphere also getting pretty popular?
Seems to be (or at least, GW thinks it is enough to plan out and release a second season's worth of cards and warbands), but I'd argue that Shadespire and Frostgrave/Ghost Archipelago are at the opposite ends of fantasy skirmish gaming. Frostgrave is all about campaigns and customzing your wizard, warbands and miniatures. Shadespire is the opposite - super competitive with little personal customization beyond building the deck of cards you play with. They satisfy two different audiences.
Vanguard isn't different here. It lacks something to me. And if you think Frostgrave is the only competitor in this niche...you really didn't look far.
And yes, I'm very frustrated with Mantic. They keep releasing their crappy material and make it look like it's gold. I hope you're aware the price they're asking for Vanguard miniatures are far from being the "cheap" ones they were known for when they sold their proxies for WFB. Yes, they have more details...but it's the same crappy PVC material and they're really not that great in the end.
Care to name some that are actually popular? I know Company of Iron could be one but I honestly don't know how many people play it.
I got Vangard as I'm looking for a simple and fun skirmish game to play with a few friends as Infinity is way to bogged down in rules and a single game takes us 3 hours as we really only can play once every 4-6 weeks.
Care to name some that are actually popular? I know Company of Iron could be one but I honestly don't know how many people play it.
It's actually not about "popularity", because it's always subjective. I mean, I know no one playing Frostgrave while I do know lots of people still playing Mordheim - that doesn't mean my view is the same worldwide. It's about having time to share for another med/fan skirmish scale game that comes on the market. Competitors on that matter are plenty. UK in particular have quite a few generic game system allowing skirmish battles with a system of experience - some including dungeon crawlers kind of games. They're not really known outside of the island, though.
As for small scale skirmish games akind to Vanguard, I can name Alkemy (not it's not dead), Freebooter's Fate or Bushido for the few that comes from my mind. I don't really follow the most recent trend in Kickstarters, but I'm sure there are some others that could compete as well.
Vanguard will appeal to KoW fans, for sure, but since their numbers have greatly dwindled since that day when WFB died and lots of lost players were on the market not knowing where to go next, I don't have a great expectation about having that number be that big in the future. It's mainly for Mantic fanbase, let's be honest here.
I got Vangard as I'm looking for a simple and fun skirmish game to play with a few friends as Infinity is way to bogged down in rules and a single game takes us 3 hours as we really only can play once every 4-6 weeks.
Go play Kill Team, then. At least it's SF and closer to Infinity in setting. Seriously,if you compare Guild Ball to Shadespire in terms of competition and thus only look at the game system and not what's behind it, why stopping to Vanguard ? There are even simpler game systems than Mantic's new baby, honestly.
Mordheim is OOP so cannot compete with Vanguard. Alkemy and Freebooter’s Fate are both great examples of market nonstarters. Keep in mind, it’s not that I dislike such games. (I actually love these strange settings, especially Anyaral.) It’s just that they don’t reach even a fraction of Mantic’s potential customers. Malifaux operates in a somehwta similar space but the tone is pretty different. And when you get into generic Western fantasy tone, nothing has anything like the support and marketability of Vanguard. The very notion that Frostgrave dominates the space demonstrates that it’s a niche for the taking. GW will eventually turn back to this with a serious go at AoS Skirmish, in the wake of KT’s uproarious success but until then Mantic can have a field day.
Seriously,if you compare Guild Ball to Shadespire in terms of competition and thus only look at the game system and not what's behind it, why stopping to Vanguard ? There are even simpler game systems than Mantic's new baby, honestly.
I asked because I was curious as to what game(s) you were refering too as competetors and if maybe there was a skirmish game that I had overlooked.
Fantasy Skirmish Games that are similar and that are played around are Frostgrave, Malifaux, and SAGA fantasy rules.
For SciFi, Infinity, Deadzone and KillTeam are the ones around.
Infinity is played for different reason than Deadzone and KT is played because it is 40k
Guildball is here more a replacement for Warmachine/Hordes and Shadespire struggle as those who like Boardgame TT's play Deadzone or Bloodbowl.
So Vanguard is generic Fantasy Skirmish with focus on pic up games with the possibility of campaigns has its niche. Time will tell if it finds its place like Deadzone or not
Mantic problem was over capitalisation without a proper plan. Warhammer was killed off as players knew it, and it left a lot of people angry and looking for an alternative. Mantic had some good product (its rules and its undead miniatures), and then jumped on the Kickstarter bandwagon to get things really going.
Unfortunately they failed to plan things out properly. Miniatures didn't look anything like their concept artwork, they got screwed over on the first incarnation of Basileans, and their restic left a lot to be desired.
They shouldn't have gone so wide in their range so quickly. Should have focussed on getting a quality product made (at least Renedra or GW standard) for their miniatures, which would allow them to build their core identity, and encourage people to switch over. Great miniatures at a good price is as good a lure as you need for a fanbase which is cheesed off at how they had been treated by GW. Make the buy-in reasonable and the players will follow.
Instead we got a ton of plastic in varying degrees of quality, with none of it really outstanding, and it's taken them until now to work their way back around. I do believe the Nightstalkers are a fantastic look for their miniatures, it's just a shame that the window of opportunity they had wasn't taken advantage of when they had it.
Spend the money on getting good sculpts made. Have a good art design team, which includes top notch painters to showcase the product, and you'll pull market share in really well, which will stay stable as your product will be seen as being one which is an excellent buy, and thus you'll keep people around to also play your game. Blow it all on cheaper sculpts and you've just spent good money on expensive molds which won't see nearly the return as ones made for excellent models.
I do believe Mantic is on the right path with the Nightstalkers, especially their plastic kits, they just need to keep going with this.
WHFB didn't die until KoW 2E was about to hit retail.
It's easy to say a company shouldn't go wide so quickly, but the problem is that when trying to convince gamers to look away from GW games for a moment, if you launch with anything less than the same number of armies that GW already has, they'll dismiss the game outright as shallow and unsupported, no matter how good the sculpts for the two/three launch armies are. GW gamers are basically always looking for an excuse to dismiss the alternatives, rather than a reason to engage with them, so most companies are really up against it no matter which was they go.
Look at Hawk and DFC, great sculpts, fully realised factions on launch, solid if slightly flawed rules, and a sizable portion of the potential player base still rejected it based entirely on the hopeful notion that GW were going to redo BFG some time in the next 4 years, a dated and badly balanced long OOP game whose draw is fueled by nostalgia and corporate loyalty.
NTRabbit wrote: WHFB didn't die until KoW 2E was about to hit retail.
It's easy to say a company shouldn't go wide so quickly, but the problem is that when trying to convince gamers to look away from GW games for a moment, if you launch with anything less than the same number of armies that GW already has, they'll dismiss the game outright as shallow and unsupported, no matter how good the sculpts for the two/three launch armies are. GW gamers are basically always looking for an excuse to dismiss the alternatives, rather than a reason to engage with them, so most companies are really up against it no matter which was they go.
Look at Hawk and DFC, great sculpts, fully realised factions on launch, solid if slightly flawed rules, and a sizable portion of the potential player base still rejected it based entirely on the hopeful notion that GW were going to redo BFG some time in the next 4 years, a dated and badly balanced long OOP game whose draw is fueled by nostalgia and corporate loyalty.
NTRabbit wrote: WHFB didn't die until KoW 2E was about to hit retail.
It's easy to say a company shouldn't go wide so quickly, but the problem is that when trying to convince gamers to look away from GW games for a moment, if you launch with anything less than the same number of armies that GW already has, they'll dismiss the game outright as shallow and unsupported, no matter how good the sculpts for the two/three launch armies are. GW gamers are basically always looking for an excuse to dismiss the alternatives, rather than a reason to engage with them, so most companies are really up against it no matter which was they go.
Look at Hawk and DFC, great sculpts, fully realised factions on launch, solid if slightly flawed rules, and a sizable portion of the potential player base still rejected it based entirely on the hopeful notion that GW were going to redo BFG some time in the next 4 years, a dated and badly balanced long OOP game whose draw is fueled by nostalgia and corporate loyalty.
What are Hawk and DFC?
Hawk Wargames, a now-defunct company that was acquired by TTCombat which produced DropZone Commander (DZC) and DropFleet Commander (DFC). Saying GW loyalty played a role is to overlook the incredibly poor handling of the KS for DFC. It was advertised as BFG 2.0, sure, to the point that Andy Chambers designed the rules. However, it didn't become clear to many folks until later that there was no plans for a fleet vs. fleet in space gameplay and that it was always going to require the transport ships and ground combat. That soured more than a few people.
More damning was the amount of orders that Hawk lost track of, including some from fairly major backers at the higher tiers. Even after TTCombat acquired the lines, they were still trying to fulfill orders from the KS because it was such a cluster (we're talking 7-8 months on from fulfillment starting). I have no proof of this, but I believe their pledge manager software contractor may have screwed up since Mantic used the same one at the time and suffered from a similar "missing pledges" syndrome. This left stock shortfalls, and generated a huge amount of ill-will because Hawk fell behind and then went silent, and portions of the campaign were just cancelled (map packs primarily). I'd rate it as one of the bigger fiascoes I've seen on KS (of those that ended with people getting their stuff anyway), and I suspect it played no small part in Hawk's ultimate demise. I know a few stores tried to stock it, but then could never get restocks so the game didn't go anywhere around here.
Whatever the cause of their logistics failures on that campaign, that had far, far more to do with DFC's issues than anything GW mentioned maybe doing. Wish I could say that won't be an issue for Vanguard, but Mantic isn't immune to logistics issues and there seem to be a lot of stores that "used to" carry Mantic stuff about, which isn't a particularly positive sign.
Yeah, a good friend of mine went all in on DFCKS and boy is he pissed. On top of everything described above, Hawk apparently caved in to small, vocal groups complaining about balance and changed the rules back and forth a few times and at this time you probably need a personal hotline to Andy Chambers to find out which version you're supposed to play. After DFC and the dumpster fire that is Dark Souls my friend swore off KS forever.
It's always easier to blame GW for the lack of success/own mistakes of the editor itself for a game. Main reason why GW fanbase stays loyal/come back to them is simple : GW may do mistakes, but their size and their support is so big that they can afford to jump back on their feet when they screw up. It's not the same for the smaller competition - if they really screw up, they just disappear, more than one time with their games and leaving a community completely lost and confused. When it happens, I can assure you that you can be all angry you want, you can't direct it anywhere because the main perpetrators are gone and the game is dead anyway. I still remember the recent debacle of Spartan Games, for example.
They don't play in the same league, that's the reality. That's why I'm always suspicious of declarations from another fanbase saying that Vanguard will be the next thing in their field - if it was made by GW, sure, I would believe you. But it's Mantic. We all know the support will be a little more than the few videos we saw so far, because they can't afford to do much more else. It's up to the players, always...and it varies greatly from where the motivated people are and to what extent they will go to support the game until something else happens in their life.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yeah, a good friend of mine went all in on DFCKS and boy is he pissed. On top of everything described above, Hawk apparently caved in to small, vocal groups complaining about balance and changed the rules back and forth a few times and at this time you probably need a personal hotline to Andy Chambers to find out which version you're supposed to play. After DFC and the dumpster fire that is Dark Souls my friend swore off KS forever.
Until October 31st you can use the code ORCY20 to get 20% off orc/Marauder products on the Mantic website. You could grab yourself one of the awesome Winged Slashers, an Orc army for Kings of War. Just enter the code ORCY20 at the the checkout! This offer is only available until October 31st.
Well, my vanguard pledge arrived today
only thing I've had time to open was the giant and well......it seems to be missing a leg and the top of the torso.....so now i guess I'll need to scour the rest of the box and fire off some emails, which is a shame since i really like the parts of the model i so far have
Are they sending notification emails when they send out the packages?
Actually, are they doing AU distribution via Aetherworks, or just sending them direct from Notts? (At work atm so can't scour the interwebs for updates, etc)
Azazelx wrote: Are they sending notification emails when they send out the packages?
Actually, are they doing AU distribution via Aetherworks, or just sending them direct from Notts? (At work atm so can't scour the interwebs for updates, etc)
i had an email and tracking number for mine...can't say if its the same for your part of the world
Azazelx wrote: Are they sending notification emails when they send out the packages?
Actually, are they doing AU distribution via Aetherworks, or just sending them direct from Notts? (At work atm so can't scour the interwebs for updates, etc)
I just got a FedEx notification, direct from Mantic, no Aetherworks.
We are very proud to announce that C.L. Werner will be writing a Kings of War novel under our Zmok Books imprint! Stay tuned for more details in the coming weeks...
seems to have had pretty positive reviews for the AoS stuff done for GW
dyndraig wrote: Thats neat, Mantica really needs some fleshing out.
Yeah, and they need to give up that name. Mantica was fine in the beginning, but it really belongs to stories that have all the complexity of a Viz comic.
A rules question. Maybe my brain just can't process this.
For rules like Crushing Strength and Piercing, where they have a number following them, let's say 2 in this case, that's supposed to be subtracted from the target's armor roll.
Right?
Why do the rules give an example of changing a roll of 7 to 5, when the goal is to have them roll the target number or greater? Wouldn't that benefit the target better?
Did I misread the rules about rolling target numbers, or did Mantic get the numbers switched around? Wouldn't I want them to have less chance of making that save?
They've got a lot less chance of rolling something great than 7 than they do rolling a number than 5...
It´s only confusing if one is familiar with Kings of War, because these special rules have the exact same effect in Vanguard, but work the other way around.
In KoWcrushing strength and piercing are added to the damage roll, making it easier to wound.
Since KoW.Vanguard features armor rolls instead of damage rolls, crushing strength and piercing are subtracted from them, making it harder to save hits.
The 7 for the model in the example would therefore only be a successful armor roll if it had an armor value of no higher than 5.
So it looks like Mantic is experimenting with PVC minis like in a lot of boardgames. The Kill the Bard figure that came with the all in is a harder PVC then what they have in the terrain creates. Also the newer terrain from the KSer is a harder PVC then what they used previously as well.
And yes, since I'm sure someone will make the comment, the bard has some horrible mold lines. Wouldn't be mantic otherwise. But it is pretty detailed.
There was some talk about the half price Vanguard rulebook deal from earlier this month. Anyhoo, I jumped in and partook rather than just take the free rules.
StygianBeach wrote: My 2 Vanguard books arrived yesterday. It looks good but I will have to figure out a way to make it work with round bases.
I could paint markings on the base showing the rear 90, but that sounds like hard work.
I'm going with round bases as well I plan to just put the minis on the equivalent sized round base and get clear acrylic square bases to put under them for Vanguard games. Attach them with magnets so they can be removed when not playing Vanguard. The only slight issue is 20mm base - 20mm rounds are tiny they might be OK for grunts but not the others might have to mount them on 25mm rounds which actually aren't all that much bigger than 20mm squares and if you put a 20mm squre under a 25mm round you can still clearly see the 4 corners of the base.
Of course I need to actually get my pledge first this is what happens when you order the alt. Frostfangs and Ice Elementals plus living in Ireland = back of shipping queue for most KS as there doesn't tend to be many of us backing
The giant is pretty nice, really wish I would have gotten 2 more (as I also got the frost giant upgrade) but I do worry that glue won't be enough to hold the large arm with the club any position but down as Mantic as just a basic flush ball/cup joint for the arms so you can place them how you like along the x axis but that one arm (there is an alt) is pretty heavy at the club end. The frost giant kit has a different arm connector so you can't post that one easily.
There are also a lot of parts for it (feet, legs, groin, waste, chest, head, arms, fur coat) so I see mantic releasing a lot of alt kits for it.
StygianBeach wrote: My 2 Vanguard books arrived yesterday. It looks good but I will have to figure out a way to make it work with round bases.
I could paint markings on the base showing the rear 90, but that sounds like hard work.
I'm going with round bases as well I plan to just put the minis on the equivalent sized round base and get clear acrylic square bases to put under them for Vanguard games. Attach them with magnets so they can be removed when not playing Vanguard. The only slight issue is 20mm base - 20mm rounds are tiny they might be OK for grunts but not the others might have to mount them on 25mm rounds which actually aren't all that much bigger than 20mm squares and if you put a 20mm squre under a 25mm round you can still clearly see the 4 corners of the base.
Of course I need to actually get my pledge first this is what happens when you order the alt. Frostfangs and Ice Elementals plus living in Ireland = back of shipping queue for most KS as there doesn't tend to be many of us backing
That may do the trick.
I base everything Human sized on 30mm rounds so I will not have the 20mm problem, on the other hand I don't think I have ever seen a 30mm clear square base.
StygianBeach wrote: My 2 Vanguard books arrived yesterday. It looks good but I will have to figure out a way to make it work with round bases.
I could paint markings on the base showing the rear 90, but that sounds like hard work.
I'm going with round bases as well I plan to just put the minis on the equivalent sized round base and get clear acrylic square bases to put under them for Vanguard games. Attach them with magnets so they can be removed when not playing Vanguard. The only slight issue is 20mm base - 20mm rounds are tiny they might be OK for grunts but not the others might have to mount them on 25mm rounds which actually aren't all that much bigger than 20mm squares and if you put a 20mm squre under a 25mm round you can still clearly see the 4 corners of the base.
Of course I need to actually get my pledge first this is what happens when you order the alt. Frostfangs and Ice Elementals plus living in Ireland = back of shipping queue for most KS as there doesn't tend to be many of us backing
That may do the trick.
I base everything Human sized on 30mm rounds so I will not have the 20mm problem, on the other hand I don't think I have ever seen a 30mm clear square base.
StygianBeach wrote: My 2 Vanguard books arrived yesterday. It looks good but I will have to figure out a way to make it work with round bases.
I could paint markings on the base showing the rear 90, but that sounds like hard work.
I always thought the standard was "Fantasy on square bases, Everything else on round bases".
But then AoS/GW broke the rules...
I started using rounds during 8th edition WHFB to make smaller Warbands, and I wanted to base my warbands consistently regardless of where the mini came from.
In the end I went with the round base with Rim, sometimes I wish I went with the Renedra Flat Round because the Flat Rounds have (cheap) Oval options but they are harder to magnetise so its a compromise I am willing to accept.
The bigger resin Rim bases are quite expensive though, which is no fun and just as tricky to magnetise as Flat Rounds.
- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.
- Just because something is in KOW doesn't mean it will find it's way into VG some things just don't fit at VG level. They took about 8 to 10 things from current KoW armies to build VG warbands from and would rather anything else be new to VG.
- Big things like the giant will be scenario specific rather than available to all so a Dragon would be scenario specific as well.
- New supplement next year with new scenarios, rules and lists.
- VG is to be used as a way of adding new minis, units and concepts for later use in KoW - Retail plan for 2019
Balance of KS stuff
Dwarf Warband
Goblin Warband - new stuff currently being sculpted
Undead Warband
- New Warbands will be getting new minis.
- The free starter warband lists will be updated next month to include more of the current KoW armies such as Salamanders
- New cards for VG minis will be included with them at retail release. They will eventually go on easy army builder but not for a few months after retail probably to help support retail sales.
- Next Clash of Kings book will have KoW rules for VG units.
- Mantic currently have 1 mold maker and 1 resin caster so that limits their resin output.
- VG organised play kit in January.
If it's everything from Vanguard ends up in Kings of War, but not everything in Kings of War ends up in Vanguard, I'm ok with that. Certainly wasn't expecting to be able to stick my mammoth or any chariots into a skirmish game.
StygianBeach wrote: I just want the stats for a basilean spearman. I am quite disappointed that unit card is missing from the book.
At least the orcs have their axe warriors.
This video shows all the cards for the Basileans. The card for the War Wizard is included but not the mini. The Abyssal deck has a card for a Hellhound even though the mini is not in the KS.
I can understand them not wanting to put out rules for armies they don't produce, as they don't make a living by selling rulebooks.
However there are a lot of gaps in the model range. I have a forces of the abyss army that can't field half its options due to not having models. My friends trident realms force would be unplayable with just mantic models.
I'm not sure any of their models ranges cover 100% of the options in their lists.
If it means we see a push from them to fill out the model range, then I'm all for it.
The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)
Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)
The Q&A was on Facebook live so I jumped around looking for this. What they said is going forward they don't plan on adding new armies or units to KoW or vanguard that they're not planning models for.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)
Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)
I would expect the latter, Mantic has given us no reason to believe they'll be that level of gakky.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The big question is going to be when the inevitable new edition of KoW hits is all the stuff without mantic minis going to go away? (a potential pain in the future)
Or is it more that going forward we'll only include new stuff when we make a mini? (that shouldn't really make a difference to anybody)
Oh, I expect more things to simply disappear, with some background excuses like the last campaign, where the Brotherhood was completely destroyed and the Varangur "joining" the Northern Alliance (remember that, guys ?).
Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.
Of course, with the current team making miniatures at Mantic, it's impossible for them to supply all the armies they have made for KoW. So the reasonnable - and simple - solution is to squash the "unnecessary" ones.
Kingdom of Men is to be expected to go away, for example. Basilea is their official Mantic human kingdom. Maybe another one when they have the time and ressources to do enough stuff for a regular army (Rhordia with halflings could be nice, but it would be too much a niche, IMHO).
And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...
And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...
It's not, that was covered in the Q&A where they've been trying to figure out what design approach to go with it as they don't want to be "not skaven" with their ratmen nor did it seam like (as the auto wasn't the best) that they just want to them to be the fantasy version of Warpath's rat faction.
kodos wrote: If they would remove any of the existing army lists with 3rd Edition, the game will be dead
It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.
So it's perfectly natural to me that Mantic is trying to "remake" the setting so that players actually have to buy their miniatures to play their games. Selling only rules isn't what will bring most of the money in Mantic's pockets, after all.
It's not, that was covered in the Q&A where they've been trying to figure out what design approach to go with it as they don't want to be "not skaven" with their ratmen nor did it seam like (as the auto wasn't the best) that they just want to them to be the fantasy version of Warpath's rat faction.
They don't have time nor the ressources to make their version of "not skaven" in fantasy, let's be real here. It won't happen after a very long time, at best. And I'm not really sure they want to as well - main reason they were made in Warpath is because GW never made space skaven so far, and so there was a hole here to fill.
It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.
There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.
But a lot of people who play KoW like the freedom of modelling. KoW attracts players who left Warhammer after GW got that attitude of making only rules for existing models and those are players who build up groups were new players buy Mantic models.
But than, if people don't like the models, they won't buy them no matter if KoW has only rules for existing models or not.
the difference will be, that others will stop playing and even those who like their models won't buy them because they play something else.
So it's perfectly natural to me that Mantic is trying to "remake" the setting so that players actually have to buy their miniatures to play their games.
You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.
There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.
Exactly, that's my point. The players they gathered after AoS killed WFB didn't stay or invest in Mantic miniatures, because Mantic failed to appeal to them in the end. They just kept their miniatures, they had all the rules to play them as much they wanted.
But a lot of people who play KoW like the freedom of modelling.
Which is nice, but that doesn't bring much money to Mantic in the end. And I suspect that's the main reason KoW's line is not the priority of Mantic team, because they don't sell that many miniatures in the end. I believe that's the main reason they didn't produce a lot, and focused on the armies that were "Mantic only" enough to appeal, like Forces of Nature or the Nightmares.
But than, if people don't like the models, they won't buy them no matter if KoW has only rules for existing models or not.
That's the main problem of Mantic right now with KoW : it doesn't have a coherent range of miniatures. Quality varies greatly with age and, well, design choices. More hurting is that they released too many armies that they just can't support with their own miniatures. The only solution is to invest dramatically more in a sculpting/designing team focusing only on making miniatures - and we all know Mantic is currently unable to do that to the scales needed for all the armies covered with the current rules of KoW.
So reducing that range is a perfectly understandable solution while trying to build that new part of them.
the difference will be, that others will stop playing and even those who like their models won't buy them because they play something else.
Yes. They will lose some in hope to gain others. It's risky, as GW showed it. And that's why I'm saying Vanguard will fail in the end - the changes needed won't be accepted by Mantic's fanbase, because they will see the "evil" they tried to escape from That Other Company.
You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.
Oh no, GW had the same idea since they made their W40k and WFB games. It was the purpose - use their miniatures in their games.
Here, with Mantic ? Core lists were indeed made for Mantic miniatures, but that wasn't the case with the extension of Uncharted Territories. A lot of the lists there were clearly, blatantly made for the WFB players, right at the time when AoS landed and left the Old World destroyed, with a lot of its fanbase lost, angry and confused. It wasn't made for "freedom of modelling" only, it was obvious they were written in hope to gather some of those players to try the KoW game system. Hell it even was an argument for KoW recruiters - "you can play with your WFB armies, there are new lists to cover all of your units!".
Let's not forget here that Mantic was born with making proxy miniatures for WFB. The game came afterwards, to make it look like it "wasn't made for Another Game" and play it a bit more long term. That's why I always have a grin when I read/heard that Mantic team only has "player concern above mere marketing purposes". Yeah, right, I'm sure that's the reason why the Brotherhood got slaughtered by the demons right at the beginning of the campaign, and then was given no chance of recovery with the flooding afterwards. Their death was wanted from the very beginning, and they're not the only ones here.
Sarouan wrote:
Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.
It must be terrible for Osprey. All those blue rulebooks of fantastic games and people buy miniatures elsewhere.
Why does this GW mentality of "rules can only be played with rules writers figures" seem to stick around?
I have undead for KoW. Most of it was GW, some is from Mantic, some from much smaller metal model companies. Mantic still get my money for rules. When I went for a new army (ogres) I mainly went with Mantic models. So, they get a good share of my money.
I'm not sure why you're always posting such negativity about Mantic in any thread related to them. If you don't like what they do, ignore them. Did they steal your cookies or something? Or maybe make you buy lots of lousy v1 Deadzone restics?
DaveC wrote: A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today
- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.
Oh, that’s reallly not good news from my perspective if true... being able to use my Skaven and (to a lesser extent) Beastman armies in a rank and flank set of rules is a very big part of why I’m a huge fan of KoW. I do love the rules, but if I can’t use those armies, I’ll have to find another set of rules to look at using. I’m not the least bit interested in buying a wholly new, Mantic, army just to play. And I’m really not sure Mantic is in a position to play the, “my way or the highway” game wrt models like GW has been able to do.
It must be terrible for Osprey. All those blue rulebooks of fantastic games and people buy miniatures elsewhere.
Difference is that Mantic Games sells a whole range of miniatures for their games. They're not exactly playing in the same league, and the costs they have aren't the same as well.
Why does this GW mentality of "rules can only be played with rules writers figures" seem to stick around?
Because when you try to sell your own range of miniatures, it's quite obvious that any rule allowing your players to go buy elsewhere isn't exactly what makes you bring money to invest in whole new miniatures.
I'm not sure why you're always posting such negativity about Mantic in any thread related to them. If you don't like what they do, ignore them. Did they steal your cookies or something? Or maybe make you buy lots of lousy v1 Deadzone restics?
Because I still care about KoW, which is my favorite game when I want to play regimental mass battle. I want them to do better than what they've done so far :better quality, better miniatures and better long term plans/coherent design. That's why.
Or maybe you believe that because it's Mantic, all they do is perfect, you should never criticize them and they're automatically better than GW ? Well, reality check ; they're not.
Exactly, that's my point. The players they gathered after AoS killed WFB didn't stay or invest in Mantic miniatures, because Mantic failed to appeal to them in the end. They just kept their miniatures, they had all the rules to play them as much they wanted.
I know of no one who is doing this.
All those who play AoS bought in the new Stuff
Which is nice, but that doesn't bring much money to Mantic in the end. [...]That's the main problem of Mantic right now with KoW : it doesn't have a coherent range of miniatures. Quality varies greatly with age and, well, design choices
Right, but Fantasy R&F is a slow growing thing anyway. Today everyone is jumping on Skirmishers and historical R&F is on the rise.
No one is going to buy a 200 model army and paint just to try the game. With a 10 model Skirmish it is different.
KoW needs an existing playerbase for others to buy into KoW models.
But than, Mantic is missing a consistent range for their main armies too.
The problem with the Dwarfs is not just that the basic plastic guys don't look that good, but that there are not all units available in the same style. Metal Berserker Infantry doesn't fit to the mounted Berserkers in style.
The only full range they have are Forces of the Abyss and Empire of Dust, everything else has something that doesn't fit in design wise or is missing too many units for a full army (Nightstalkers)
Waiting until there are full ranges available it make it hard for people to play the game meanwhile means it is dead when the models are done.
Warpath and Firefight were on the jump here, but for several reasons (missing models and no official option for other models) it was replaced with Star Wars Legion.
So no change here except that no one plays the game and Mantic doesn't sell anything but some books.
Oh no, GW had the same idea since they made their W40k and WFB games. It was the purpose - use their miniatures in their games.
Not really, as in the early days GW specially added rules and options were no models were ever planned to give people the option to convert
No models, no rules was not a thing until Chapterhouse and Gamezone screwed them over (and GW lost at court)
it was obvious they were written in hope to gather some of those players to try the KoW game system. Hell it even was an argument for KoW recruiters - "you can play with your WFB armies, there are new lists to cover all of your units!".
.
And the main answer if you tried to recruit WFB players for KoW was "I don't like Mantic models"
they did not care about using their existing stuff as for most of them, getting into a new game meant to buy new models from that company.
"I don't like their models so I won't start KoW" was the main reason the game did not made it for the ETC. (which was for the better, looking at some special people from that community)
the concept of KoW's freedom was only understood by, "historical" or new players.
While the idea behind was good, it was the wrong target group as the concept and the rules never fitted the average WFB player/GW costumer who wanted a "everything from the same company" product and liked the single model micromanagement rules.
Because I still care about KoW, which is my favorite game when I want to play regimental mass battle. I want them to do better than what they've done so far :better quality, better miniatures and better long term plans/coherent design. That's why
We all do, that is why killing KoW is not an option
Sarouan wrote:
Oh, I expect more things to simply disappear, with some background excuses like the last campaign, where the Brotherhood was completely destroyed and the Varangur "joining" the Northern Alliance (remember that, guys ?).
Let's face it : making rules for a game you sell and where you don't have miniatures just means people will go elsewhere to buy them. That's reality.
Of course, with the current team making miniatures at Mantic, it's impossible for them to supply all the armies they have made for KoW. So the reasonnable - and simple - solution is to squash the "unnecessary" ones.
Kingdom of Men is to be expected to go away, for example. Basilea is their official Mantic human kingdom. Maybe another one when they have the time and ressources to do enough stuff for a regular army (Rhordia with halflings could be nice, but it would be too much a niche, IMHO).
And frankly, their "not skaven" army is also at the top list of being flushed away, if you're asking me. Seriously, what were they thinking by making that one ? It's just begging for their players to go buy the miniatures at a GW shop, really...
That's a load of alarmist gak and you know it. The Brotherhood is still a playable faction, just minus a homeland in the fluff. Not sure where you get the idea of the Varangur joining NA? Do you mean how the Varangur fought against the Abyss (as their fluff would have) in the global campaign? The one when NA was still only a rumour?
What would Mantic gain by reducing the diversity of lists? Why can't there be more than one human faction? Saying KoM and Ratkin going away for no reason is stupid and/or fear mongering.
Sarouan wrote:
It's already in a bad state at the moment. Catering to WFB players didn't prove to be that good for KoW recruitment, in the end...I mean, how many players did actually buy Mantic miniatures for their armies, rather than just keeping their old WFB collection to play ? Because that's what the current lists clearly made for WFB players have as main consequence.
Is it? Seems to be doing well enough, YMMV depending on where you are though. In my experience Wargamers don't often stop collecting, so keeping one's old Warhammer army and getting a Mantic army is far from being mutually exclusive. Most of the players in my group get (or plan to) Mantic models if available for new projects/armies they start. Many players (myself included) buy books they don't need (like campaign supplements) to support Mantic (add then end up playing in the campaign as a result), because we like Mantic as a company and we love their game.
They don't have time nor the ressources to make their version of "not skaven" in fantasy, let's be real here. It won't happen after a very long time, at best. And I'm not really sure they want to as well - main reason they were made in Warpath is because GW never made space skaven so far, and so there was a hole here to fill.
Mantic can make a line of miniatures if they want to, as evident from their lines of miniatures that they have already made. How many they can do at once is another matter, so how long it will take depends if they actually want to and how highly they priorities it.
kodos wrote:
There are not many WFB refugees playing KoW, as it is not Warhammer. They either stick with the old rules or play other games that are closer to old 8th Edition.
You know, GW had the same idea with AoS, worked not well for them and it just survived because it is GW. The playerbase of KoW won't forgive Mantic something similar.
Most of the KoW players I know were WFB refugees as are many of the people doing KoW podcasts, so that's definitely not universally true. Remember that any particular area isn't actually globally representative, so we'll have to find some better data than the impression you get from your area to actually say either way.
Also; despite the horrific launch, AoS is actually doing well for GW. AoS and KoW are practically opposite is the kind of player they appeal to, so both kinds of players now have a game that suits them better than WFB could have done (because it tried to appeal to both).
The reason for the difference from area to area is that game growth in a given area is exponential (up to a certain ceiling), because the more popular a game is the more likely it is to grow. People tend to assume that things are popular for a reason (which is why we tend to jump on bandwagons and fall for the bandwagon fallacy). It's also why Sarouan sounds so ridiculous. Mantic has something other than miniature sales to gain from having people playing the game. Each person playing, even if they only use free rules, is an advertisement for the game and makes the player base bigger. The bigger the player base the more likely other people are to start playing and the more people play the more likely it is that some of them will buy Mantic products and armies.
Which was the reasoning behind the half price rulebooks for Vanguard (Ronnie said as much in an video), so Mantic do actually apply this concept to their thinking.
Sarouan wrote:Let's not forget here that Mantic was born with making proxy miniatures for WFB. The game came afterwards, to make it look like it "wasn't made for Another Game" and play it a bit more long term. That's why I always have a grin when I read/heard that Mantic team only has "player concern above mere marketing purposes". Yeah, right, I'm sure that's the reason why the Brotherhood got slaughtered by the demons right at the beginning of the campaign, and then was given no chance of recovery with the flooding afterwards. Their death was wanted from the very beginning, and they're not the only ones here.
This again! We know!
You're saying that the game is just an attempt to save face and/or look good? That sounds rather silly. I think it's more reasonable say that Mantic made a game because they saw an opportunity
See above on the Brotherhood..
cygnnus wrote:
DaveC wrote: A few bits from the Vanguard Q&A today
- going forward Mantic will not be doing rules for minis they don't make themselves.
Oh, that’s reallly not good news from my perspective if true... being able to use my Skaven and (to a lesser extent) Beastman armies in a rank and flank set of rules is a very big part of why I’m a huge fan of KoW. I do love the rules, but if I can’t use those armies, I’ll have to find another set of rules to look at using. I’m not the least bit interested in buying a wholly new, Mantic, army just to play. And I’m really not sure Mantic is in a position to play the, “my way or the highway” game wrt models like GW has been able to do.
Really, crushingly, disappointing if true...
Valete,
JohnS
The word "doing" is ambiguous. I'm quite certain (based on how Mantic has been and is doing things) that it means Mantic will not be making any more rules for minis they don't make (i.e. they are moving away from gathering players to making and promoting their own products), rather than removing existing rules for models that they don't make.
OK just to clear things up a bit as I listened to the original Q&A live with poor sound and no rewind option what was actually said word for word
If we add a new army now it will be one we make models for or are about to make models for ... we are not going to release new units or anything for stuff we don't make any more
So that's very much a going forward stance which is what I picked up on on my original listen - rules being covered by "or anything" what that means for existing stuff Mantic will need to clarify themselves (and we know Matt sticks his head in here occasionally ) but going forward don't expect new stuff that's not accompanied by a Mantic mini.
The above answer was in response to how many armies they can support in KoW if there is a hard cap and Matt thinks there's 2 or 3 more left and that's about it at some point you just start repeating yourself or can't find unique ways to do things.
In the more Vanguard specific part of the Q&A they said that the 4 Warbands they picked were picked as they are very distinctly Mantics IP.
Most of the KoW players I know were WFB refugees as are many of the people doing KoW podcasts, so that's definitely not universally true. Remember that any particular area isn't actually globally representative, so we'll have to find some better data than the impression you get from your area to actually say either way.
of course I always talk about my area and/or other games I looked into.
as it doesn't help much if the situation is different somewhere else while it makes it much harder for me to find someone to play who is less than 3 hours away
Austria/Germany is something special, those that still played Warhammer 8th and were upset with AoS, liked 8th Edi so much that they would never touch anything else
Others that quit earlier liked KoW but are upset that the new books are not available in German.
Than we have the tournament players who just play the game were tournaments are available and the scene is focused around the ETC (whatever game is played there, the local tournament scene is build around it, if a game is not played there, it is not worth a closer look)
of course it is not that extreme and things are more grey than just black/white
But KoW is more a game played in small local groups who buy whatever model they like, no matter if it is Mantic or not
not very representative but good enough to get an impression what qualities WFB players associate with KoW compared to Warhammer
This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).
What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).
This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).
never wanted to say that
What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).
if you now assume that T9A player are mostly WFB players who liked 8th you get an idea why trying to catch WFB players after GW killed it with KoW did not worked out that well
not very representative but good enough to get an impression what qualities WFB players associate with KoW compared to Warhammer
This data represents mostly 9th Age palyers, so really isn't a good measure of how popular anything is (including 9th Age).
What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).
Yeah, I would imagine that 9th Age players recognize that their game is more fiddly and complicated than KoW, but they associate those qualities with WHFB and with a higher sense of immersion. They want a detail-oriented game with a high degree of customization and many flavourful special rules, while still being more balanced than the typical GW game. Keeping the immersion without compromising on balance (the latter of which is what GW does) requires a high degree of complexity. Although even these 9th age players find AoS to be the most immersive currently available game, which is pretty interesting...
What is interesting though: according to this study KoW scores higher on "easy to learn", "efficient game", "balance" and "robust rules" than other games, but lower on "diversity" and "immersion", suggesting that even 9th Age players think that KoW does what it is designed to do better, but put a higher value on other aspects of a game (which is probably why they play not KoW to begin with).
You're making the mistake of assuming the all WFB players were like minded. WFB was the only fantasy mass battle game most people would consider for a long time. WFB also tried to "please everyone" to some extent (which did not help the quality of the game at all). Different players of that game liked different things about it. Some liked the setting and and enjoyed the crazy spells, others (like I would have) were in it for the game and tactical challenge. Some of those players were evidently the kind of player KoW is made for and getting them into KoW was a good move. Other players (the kind 9th Age is made for) liked other parts of WFB and are not the kind of player KoW is made for, those are also the kind of players who would be over represented if one polled the opinions of 9th Age players.
Suggesting that it was not worthwhile for Mantic to reach out to WFB refugees because some of the were not the kind of player KoW is made for ignores the other players, the ones Mantic were actually trying to reach.
So, Megan and I headed out the door, to head down the stairs to see our new landlord - at the same time the Fed Ex guy was getting out of his truck to head up the stairs, Giant box in hands....
I latched onto one of the giants, and the frost giant kit, rather than leave it all with Megan, a bottle of glue, and a can of primer.... (She got bored last week... and made a serious dent in our shared Mountain of Shame.)
Fit on the giant is decent - one part is going to need a hot water bath to fit properly. (The abdomen is in two pieces that don't quite meet cleanly.)
The club is a freakin' tree and is integral to the arm - I will be attaching it to the shoulders with a green stuff-super glue sandwich, with more green stuff to hide the seams. I may pin it, especially if I go with the resin Frost Giant arm.
He is very much a Skyrim style giant - I will be using one as a Jotunblood Frost Giant for Pathfinder, and the other for a Jotunblood Hill Giant. (I am kind of wishing we had gotten a third - I am really happy with the giant, even with the bit of work that will be needed to get the fit right.) I am curious to see what Megan does with the one she has already called dibs on. This will be her third Giant for her green skins.
The Frost Giant bits are resin - well made, no noticeable bubbles, but a fair amount of flash, and the vents and gates will definitely take some work. Nice... but not nicer than the base giant - I can recommend it for when you want to add some variety, but you get some nice options with just the base giant.
Which leaves you with some nice extra bits - I am thinking about getting some of the Bones Hill Giants (from Bones III, I think) and using the left over arms to modify him. (Which will leave me with different left over arms... and so the circle of life continues. )
Reaper Bones giant, spoilered, because slightly off topic:
Spoiler:
This simian fellow already has oversized arms, so the difference in scale won't matter all that much.
(A quick Prime, Wash, Drybrush - but painted!)
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
