-Your guys get saves base.
-Nobs ain't shanked before fighting. So do the rest of boyz.
-Improved surivability.
- 4th ed MOB RULE IS BACK! Enjoy Ld20 boyz.
-Da jump is da best.
Impressed and glad to see the mob rules and such return, clearly they are thinking about orks as a army now
What do they mean about you can take both saves together now ? are they special saves, or can you roll all the saves you have :O and how much stacking are they intending D:
I kinda feel they should have the basic free rules up now, as things come together it can be understood better.
4th ed Orks were pretty brutal. This fight just got a lot harder probably. As it should be. I'm getting a little nervous over here, because numarines don't really help BA that much in terms of play style.
hobojebus wrote: I'm not seeing how they are fixed really this articles really light on details, stacked 5= and 6= saves are not amazing.
Well, the stacked saves are nice, but the real focus should be on the fact they are more likely to get to combat. They're more likely to get stuck in because they're more durable due to new AP system and they have a plethora of rules to help them get there. Charging after advancing, refilling charges and the movement spell all make it more likely you get to combat quicker and the durability buff makes it easier to weather shots. Additionally, we know transports have gotten buffed so that also helps them get stuck in. We also saw how they balanced the morale issues of the orcs with mob rule and nobs allowing big units of boys to get work done.
jeff white wrote: Da jump is... Unexpected.
No one expects the orkizition I guess...
Not really that's been a near standard weirdboy power for a while now.. It was just useless in an army with no deep strike mitigation and the random powers (even back in 5th!)
But the return to 4th edition Mob Rule.. No it's even better because instead of using your own you can use an even BIGGER squads morale nearby if your models got krumped down a bit.
Since an Ork Mob's leadership is equal to the number of Boyz in the mob, that means they need to lose half the unit in a turn (well, half the unit less 1D6) before needing to worry about battleshock.
Sad to see the increasing and continued use of stupid stacked saves. This is a dumb ass mechanic and is way too gamey/silly. It's about as bad as re-rolls for laziness.
Rerolled 5+ and 6+ is only a *little bit* worse than a 4+ save. It comes out to 4/9. That's absolutely outstanding for how cheap Orks are. Unless i'm misreading and these stack to 4+, which is even better.
Secondly, people were concerned about battle shock. If your Warboss is nearby, you're losing *at most* D3 boys. That is a massive buff over the way morale currently operates for you in 7th edition. And you can circumvent the battleshock mechanic that people were really upset about.
Meganobz at 3 wounds and a 2+ save is great no matter how you slice it.
Finally, Da Jump would be good for *any* army in 40k.
After the release that tyranid warriors didn't get an extra wound, I was pretty worried nobz weren't getting any extra. I was pleasantly surprised.
Overall, it sounds great.
5th ed mob rule sounds like it's back, and you get to fall back on a nearby unit's LD too.
Choppas work like chainswords, too. I did not expect that, but again, pleasantly surprised.
Really excited for meganobz. I still used them in 7th (too bully boyz to the LVO), but 3W, and getting a 5+ save from AP2 weapons now is pretty awesome, and they have a non-zero chance to survive things that erased them before (force weapons, power fists, lascannons, etc).
Painboy is a bit of a letdown, potentially, sounds like just 6+ FNP. But I suppose it's in an AOE.
KFF might be actually useful again, as it mentions it protects units, rather than models. Though that may be inaccurate.
Big choppa sound better, though I often took it. 2 damage, -1 AP!
It looks like the Ork army got a buff, but it takes a bit of finesse to use properly, which is good. For example the Meganobz. Imagine if you can get a Painboy near them; you get basically FnP AFTER a buffed 2+ armor save. And even failing all of that you still got 3 wounds per model to fall back on.
Also he mentions the Kombi-Skorcha, but I'm more thinking of the Kombi-Rokkit Launcha. Imagine being able to fire that off every single turn on a Warboss and Nobz.
This focus does give one implication to another faction though; Meganobz have 3 wounds while they currently have 2 wounds. This may mean that Paladins will have 3 wounds as well and that Terminator Armor and it's equivallents basically just give +1 wound as opposed to doubling it.
Reece, to me personally, focused on some stupid thngs with this faction focus. "Your boyz MIGHT get a 6+ T-shirt save and maybe once in a blue moon you'll roll a 6+not FNP!" To which I twirl my finger and roll my eyes because I do not get a boner over having to roll 6's or everything. Also, no dedicated anti infantry weapon they showed off is shred - so middle finger for you there Reece.
I'm dissapointed choppas aren't +1 str and we havent seen if Boyz keep their 2 attacks. Too early to call if that bonus attack is awesome or just eh its something.
Mob rule sounds alright, dunno how much its gonna help truck mobz. I like running hordes of boyz, I do not like my groups snide jokes about naps in my movemnt phase or being told I need movement trays.
The KFF being worth a feth again is just fantastic, even if it is an inch shorter in projection.
No mention of a invuln of any kind for warboss and nobz, sigh, can I go toe to toe with things again or not FFS.
So over all, eh? I mean some stuff sounds nice but really he just soured me from that opening, I literally grit my teeth just said oh feth you to myself when he thought thats what I should be excited over.
Meh, doesn't sound too good or too bad. Very little real info as expected from a Faction Focus.
Boyz are only more due in the open against basic infantry weapons, in cover they're less durable against most​ things because we're used to getting that 4+, now it will be a 5+ in cover minus any AP on the weapon that's shooting. 6+ FNP from Painboys isn't great, KFF sounds like it's back to where it was in 5th edition codex. Warboss morale bubble is only 3" but will be useful. Weirdboyz will hopefully be better than useless but remains to be seen. Meganobz got a needed buff after Terminators got an extra wound, hopefully the same applies to Nobz but I don't expect it. Boyz will hopefully suffer less morale issues.
Boyz in blobs, Meganobz in Battlewagons and Warboss on bike should be good. I wonder what my lists are going to end up looking like.
If they're 6 points a piece and keep their current statline as well as the new/4th ed mob rule, that 6+ with a 6+ is huge. The individual boy won't last that long, but having even 1/6th of them survive things that would have otherwise just straight up wiped them off the board is huge. Ork hordes are huge and they're tough, so even with a miniscule chance, it still means a substantial amount of Orks will now survive to get into combat in situations where they would have otherwise been completely wiped out.
So a unit of 30 boys is basically Fearless unit they suffer close to half casualties?
I can dig that.
It rewards players you want to take large units and it encourages opponents to really focus on those units.
However, losing more than half casualties will be pretty brutal.
Who think that 6 point models deserve a save better then 6+.
An INVULNERABLE save, that is better then a 6+.
Wew lad.
Galef wrote: It rewards players you want to take large units and it encourages opponents to really focus on those units. However, losing more than half casualties will be pretty brutal.
Eh, sorta kinda. Boyz units can substitute unit size for leadership OR use the leadership of a nearby unit. So if you have two 30-man boyz squads next to each other, and one unit loses 20 guys in a single round, that now 10-man squad can use the leadership of the 30 man squad next to it for battleshock tests, effectively giving the ten-man squad leadership 30.
All of this looks pretty amazing, LD 30 units (assuming we keep the cap) spreading their LD to the smaller mobs around them too.
Also, in the new system we have no reason to spread our boyz out. I'm thinking of making movement trays where they're all close packed on different levels to be truly a green tide.
I like the overlapping bonuses. This totally makes sense for Ork and I can bet we'll see something like this with Nids too.
I don't think 6pt boyz deserve better than a 6+ save, I always happily paid my 4pts to give them eavy armor and a decent save of 4+.
What I think is why the feth should I be excited about occasionally getting to roll for a 6+ save thats bairly ever gonna fething happen or be a available. I'll sooner chuck 14 boyz in the deadpile than roll a fistful of dice cause two might not die, its a waste of fething time and nothing to be thrilled over. Oh but you get to roll 12 dice again on the offchance, oh, no sixes? Yeah their still dead.
What I want to have a better invuln save of some kind are my fething nobz or warbosses but theyll probably be stuck with the stupid once in a game miracle save while they still get fething blendered.
the 'nearby squad' mob rule makes sense to me. It always seemed a bit weird to see a tiny squad of orks fall back due to depleted numbers when they were next to an entire horde of friendly models
Galef wrote: So Orks are basically Fearless then? Unless you can inflict dire casualties to their whole army in a single turn.
To be fair, they were before too! While this may totally shield them from minor damage, Mob Rule still leaves them open to dire casualties if you really pummel a squad. If you take a squad from 20 models down to 8, it'll have Ld8 sure, but that means at LEAST 5 more models die, and possibly the rest of them! If you take a squad of 30 down to 20 though, they'll still be okay. If you bring a squad from 30 down to 15, they'll lose d6 models. In essence, it's good, but enough casualties will still cause the unit to disappear.
EDIT: Oh, and they're Orks. They will die in droves. You can guarantee it!
Galef wrote: So Orks are basically Fearless then? Unless you can inflict dire casualties to their whole army in a single turn.
They are fearless when they are a big horde, but I expect them to have ultra-mediocre Leadership, so once they began to take casualties they will drop like flyes, like Tyranids with Synapse.
This creates the tactical play of focusing your fire into a flank of the horde, for example, to destroy them faster.
lonestarr777 wrote: I don't think 6pt boyz deserve better than a 6+ save, I always happily paid my 4pts to give them eavy armor and a decent save of 4+.
What I think is why the feth should I be excited about occasionally getting to roll for a 6+ save thats bairly ever gonna fething happen or be a available. I'll sooner chuck 14 boyz in the deadpile than roll a fistful of dice cause two might not die, its a waste of fething time and nothing to be thrilled over. Oh but you get to roll 12 dice again on the offchance, oh, no sixes? Yeah their still dead.
What I want to have a better invuln save of some kind are my fething nobz or warbosses but theyll probably be stuck with the stupid once in a game miracle save while they still get fething blendered.
"Why even bother shooting my guns? Why waste time rolling all that dice just for a few lucky 5+ rolls? Why even take shootaz or tankbustaz or dakkajets when nearly 70% of my shooting will miss anyway?!"
I don't really understand your complaint. You're playing a faction that, as a rule, relies on sheer weight of dice to do pretty much anything.
All of this totally fits the mentality and tactics of Orks, which is really great since that is now translated into the game.
For possibly the first time in history it might become viable to field tightly packed hordes of Orks and have them basically ignore anything and everything coming their way.
I can see them being leadership 5. Grots maybe 4. Oh dear god I hope killa kanz don't have bad leadership that might still make them completely garbage. Kill a single kan and another 150 point model runs :(
Hopefully they buff mek gunz so you don't need five 50 dollar models in order for them to be kinda-good.
Also they said they would have rules for every model. But......mega armored warbosses never got a model. Neither did bosses and meks and painboys on bikes (the forgeworld guy is a special character, his datasheet won't work for generic warbosses). Either they make new ork models (ha!) or we might get screwed.
lonestarr777 wrote: I don't think 6pt boyz deserve better than a 6+ save, I always happily paid my 4pts to give them eavy armor and a decent save of 4+.
What I think is why the feth should I be excited about occasionally getting to roll for a 6+ save thats bairly ever gonna fething happen or be a available. I'll sooner chuck 14 boyz in the deadpile than roll a fistful of dice cause two might not die, its a waste of fething time and nothing to be thrilled over. Oh but you get to roll 12 dice again on the offchance, oh, no sixes? Yeah their still dead.
What I want to have a better invuln save of some kind are my fething nobz or warbosses but theyll probably be stuck with the stupid once in a game miracle save while they still get fething blendered.
"Why even bother shooting my guns? Why waste time rolling all that dice just for a few lucky 5+ rolls? Why even take shootaz or tankbustaz or dakkajets when nearly 70% of my shooting will miss anyway?!"
I don't really understand your complaint. You're playing a faction that, as a rule, relies on sheer weight of dice to do pretty much anything.
That's how it's supposed to be effective, in reality missing 2/3 of your shots when you're paying similar prices, or more, than someone who misses 1/3 shots is terrible. Ever seen an Ork gunline work properly? Seen Orks do consistently well for two editions? I don't mind rolling loads of dice if it gives me a good chance, comparative to cost, of success. Rolling loads of dice to no avail is futile and it's what we've done for a while now.
Also, in the new system we have no reason to spread our boyz out. I'm thinking of making movement trays where they're all close packed on different levels to be truly a green tide.
Paladins better only have 3 wounds as well, or the mega nobz better have gone down in points compared to them. also wondering if normal nobz will be 3 or 2 wounds in 8th.
Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
As long as it screws the Tau and Eldar, I'll live with it.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
Casualties don't work that way. You decide where to cut from.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
Casualties don't work that way. You decide where to cut from.
awesome if true, back to casualties from the back, but where are you getting that part from?
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
Player who owns the models chooses which ones die so you can remove models from the back. Also, Orks can reroll failed charges so they can more or less reliably pull it off.
As for sticking it to the eldar and tau players, not all of us played when those armies were broken (I own eldar and haven't played a single game in 7th), I would just like some balance in GW games. Sadly, most of the time that seems like too much to ask.
Edit: I'm not saying that the sky is falling, maybe it will be the best Gw ruleset yet! I am just worried because after playing their games for more than 10 years I have lost confidence in their ability to write quality rules.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
I think that shot models can be removed from the back of the unit instead of the closest models so the distance would still be "at least 9 inches".
Lance845 wrote: The way they described Mob Rules is it's leadership equal to the number of models in the unit OR and nearby unit.
If you have 3 20 model units of boyz then even if you kill 10 out of one of the units then each unit is STILL leadership 20.
Those Killa Kans might have poor leadership, but if they get Mob Rules they just need to hang out with some boyz.
This is what I don't like. Mob rule is great for LD = unit size. That makes sense. But the fact that it doesn't even matter how many you kill in a unit because a nearby unit gives them LD30? That's a bit weird to me.
So in your example, you have to kill 10 models FROM EACH UNIT before Morale even matters. The one thing I do like about this is that it makes opponents have to think about which units they want to shoot at. That's always a good thing for game health. And anything to help the poor Greenskins make a comeback, I'm all for.
Come to think of it, what if it means that Ork units can use the unmodified LD of nearby units? So they could use a Warbosses LD10, but not the Mob Rule LD of a 30 Boys unit? Literally you get to treat your LD as YOUR unit size, or the LD of an nearby unit (not THEIR unit size)
XlDuke gets it. I know my shooting is piss poor and I know boyz are supposed to die in droves, thats not what pisses me off about the painboy. What is upsetting is wasting an HQ slot, presumably, to roll a fistful of dice for [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] and thinking this is a feature to be thrilled over.
All this faction focus has shown me is painboy out, wyrdboy in. Meganobz wwwaaayyy in.
I really do love my orkz, I'm building a feral warband of snakebitez to add to my evil sunz right now. But exscuse me for not being over the [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] craptastic FNP and no mention of if my two favorite units Nobz and Warbosses are still gonna melt like ice cream in the sun in C&C.
Lance845 wrote: The way they described Mob Rules is it's leadership equal to the number of models in the unit OR and nearby unit.
If you have 3 20 model units of boyz then even if you kill 10 out of one of the units then each unit is STILL leadership 20.
Those Killa Kans might have poor leadership, but if they get Mob Rules they just need to hang out with some boyz.
This is what I don't like. Mob rule is great for LD = unit size. That makes sense.
But the fact that it doesn't even matter how many you kill in a unit because a nearby unit gives them LD30? That's a bit weird to me.
So in your example, you have to kill 10 models FROM EACH UNIT before Morale even matters.
The one thing I do like about this is that it makes opponents have to think about which units they want to shoot at. That's always a good thing for game health.
And anything to help the poor Greenskins make a comeback, I'm all for.
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It's not necessarily EACH unit. It is heavily based on range. It could be or the leadership of a unit within 4 inches. If that is the case you need to set them up very carefully to maintain leadership bonuses. Which also means mobility will become an issue. Especially on a table with a good amount of terrain.
There frankly isn't enough information to know HOW strong it will be in practical application. I have no doubt that it will mean any group of boyz being followed around by a character will be able to grab that characters leadership. But I doubt any one characters leadership will matter next to a giant blob of orks either.
I really like the what they did with da orks (from what i've seen) Especially the use of Leadership buffs from nearby units, not just characters. Combine this with the lack of template weapons and new transport rules.... ork horde armies look very viable to me now. We will have to wait and see of course because we have only seen a few still images of the the bigger motion picture that is 8th, so to speak.
This offers tons of list options to the ork player:
1 Big unit with several smaller units nearby to take advantage of the bigger units LD buff
A few Big units with good LD or screw it and go fully mechanized with smaller units in general and hope the transports can soak enought damage to make it across without battleshock affecting them too much
I don't play orks, but am really happy for them. They are looking like they will be masters of the buff bubbles
Lance845 wrote: The way they described Mob Rules is it's leadership equal to the number of models in the unit OR and nearby unit.
If you have 3 20 model units of boyz then even if you kill 10 out of one of the units then each unit is STILL leadership 20.
Those Killa Kans might have poor leadership, but if they get Mob Rules they just need to hang out with some boyz.
This is what I don't like. Mob rule is great for LD = unit size. That makes sense.
But the fact that it doesn't even matter how many you kill in a unit because a nearby unit gives them LD30? That's a bit weird to me.
So in your example, you have to kill 10 models FROM EACH UNIT before Morale even matters.
The one thing I do like about this is that it makes opponents have to think about which units they want to shoot at. That's always a good thing for game health.
And anything to help the poor Greenskins make a comeback, I'm all for.
Come to think of it, what if it means that Ork units can use the unmodified LD of nearby units? So they could use a Warbosses LD10, but not the Mob Rule LD of a 30 Boys unit?
Literally you get to treat your LD as YOUR unit size, or the LD of an nearby unit (not THEIR unit size)
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I don't have much of a problem with that, as it means that players can run a genuine green tide anyway they want rather than having to rely on that formation mega-squad we have right now to do so.
I would imagine that fighting orks in the future, the question "Do I try to nerf their leadership or kill something that's about to ruin my day" will become a legitimate question. Which is a good thing considering Ork mentality described in fluff.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
This is the normal reserve/deep strike/tunnel rule they've been discussing for a while now in the previews. I expect every army will have some way to do this and now we know orks will do it thru weirdboyz. I doubt it will seem as broken when we have the full rules - especially if every army has the capability.
Also note it's _more_ than 9 inches from any enemy unit. If your enemy spreads their units around their deployment zone it's going to be tough to find a 30-ork-sized hole that's 9 inches away from everything. That makes charges tough to pull off too. Not impossible, especially with CP re-rolls and what looks to be ork special options, but it's not automatic.
melbards wrote: We will have to wait and see of course because we have only seen a few still images of the the bigger motion picture that is 8th, so to speak.
I believe that we only need to look at AoS gameplay to see how 8th edition will look like. Expect units teleporting around and deleting each other with powerful attacks and mortal wounds and having layered buffs. Also using crazy unit formations to exploit ranges of abilities and protect characters. I may be wrong (really hope that I am) but it all points in that direction. Not saying that it is wrong to like that kind of game, but I don't like it so it makes me sad to see 40k end up there too.
Whatever happens, this looks good for horde armies, which have been sorely missed in the last few editions. I wanna see 150+ models on the board again. My Scatter lasers are ready (and might actually seem balanced in this edition since they'll have no AP modifier, things getting a lot more wounds AND many thinks going for 2+ to wound to 3+ to wound)
I mean, why do we act like we need to make orks lose models to morale in the first place in order for it to be balanced? Orks die to shooting just the same. I'm sure tau gunlines don't give a darn about orks being leadership 30.
Don Savik wrote: I mean, why do we act like we need to make orks lose models to morale in the first place in order for it to be balanced? Orks die to shooting just the same. I'm sure tau gunlines don't give a darn about orks being leadership 30.
because it would upset the space mary sue... err i mean marine player's feelings that lowly ork models whom a single space marine should be able to take on by the thousands per gav thrope's bad fluff while carrying on casual conversations with their brethren on vox... might god forbid do one thing better than them
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.
It has been stated that you must deploy more than 9" away, so you do need to roll a 9 to be successful on the charge.
Galef wrote: This is what I don't like. Mob rule is great for LD = unit size. That makes sense.
But the fact that it doesn't even matter how many you kill in a unit because a nearby unit gives them LD30? That's a bit weird to me.
So in your example, you have to kill 10 models FROM EACH UNIT before Morale even matters.
The one thing I do like about this is that it makes opponents have to think about which units they want to shoot at. That's always a good thing for game health.
And anything to help the poor Greenskins make a comeback, I'm all for.
Come to think of it, what if it means that Ork units can use the unmodified LD of nearby units? So they could use a Warbosses LD10, but not the Mob Rule LD of a 30 Boys unit?
Literally you get to treat your LD as YOUR unit size, or the LD of an nearby unit (not THEIR unit size)
Well, if you take out a middle squad, or severely reduce it, then take out one of the flanking squads or severely reduce that, you're going to pile on da pain! But really, what you just described requires having 90 boys to start with! That's not cheap. And they have to stay close to each other (though we don't know yet how close).
I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune. While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.
That said, I love the idea that horde armies are back. Hopefully Daemons also have high LD as they do in AoS and can be taken in large units.
It's also entirely possible that the way these rules work are a bit different then they have been presented. For example: Mob Rule says a unit can use their unit size as LD, or the LD of nearby units. What's the range? More importantly. do they get to use the unit size LD of that nearby unit, or just what is on the other unit's datasheet? Synapse too might have a smaller range, meaning less overlap is possible and each Synapse creature that dies creates a gap to exploit.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first ! That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example). I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.
It has been stated that you must deploy more than 9" away, so you do need to roll a 9 to be successful on the charge.
Yes this is right. I stand corrected. Still, a very powerful ability. I'm assuming those boys can also shoot prior to their charge.
Any word on how coherency (or whatever the term is for your bases touching after deep strike) will work when doing a deep strike? It occurs to me that teleporting a large force may present logistical challenges on a 'busy' board.
I don't know, maybe I'm salty but nothing they've shown means orks are going to last long to tau/eldar shooting. Initiative and leadership buffs aside, 6+ armor saves suuuuuuuuuuck.
Who even knows if orks are going to have str 4 or some kind of furious charge equivalent.
I'm curious about ork shooting, as I like Bad Moonz. The changes in regards to twin-linked weapons and moving and shooting Heavy weapons don't hurt the orks, but they also don't help them near as much as they do high BS armies. I'm not super worried, as there's lots of ways they could still make shooty ork armies fun, I'm just curious.
I wonder if Boss Poles will play into the rules for other using the LD of other mobs? In older editions a fleeing unit of orks could "mob up" with a unit that wasn't fleeing to form a single unit. Boss Poles played a role in that I think, but my memory is kind of fuzzy.
Galef wrote: I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune.
While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.
I think it works for these two because it becomes integral to the game experience. With the Orks, you want to try thinning their numbers. I know that seems normal in any game, but Orks will have a tipping point. Once you've deal with so many of them, the rest will just start to crumble. Tyranids also will create a dynamic play experience where you want to kill their synapse, and the army will totally fall apart without that Synapse. In this way, both armies are still VERY much affected by Leadership, maybe even more so than many other armies, but just in a very different way. Space Marines and regular dudes will have to try to have their individual units survive like normal, but these horde armies will be playing a cautious game of protect and sacrifice.
Don Savik wrote: I don't know, maybe I'm salty but nothing they've shown means orks are going to last long to tau/eldar shooting. Initiative and leadership buffs aside, 6+ armor saves suuuuuuuuuuck.
Who even knows if orks are going to have str 4 or some kind of furious charge equivalent.
Remember that Orks are likely still T4, so Eldar and Tau need S8+ weapons to wound you on 2+. All those Scatterbikes are wounding you on 3+ now. That's a 17% drop. And unless Windriders get a similar rule to Dark Eldar vehicles (I hope not, actually) they will suffer -1 To hit for the Scatter laser being Heavy.
And cover adds to Armour save. 5+ might not be great, but it means half the Orks will die.
I think it works for these two because it becomes integral to the game experience. With the Orks, you want to try thinning their numbers. I know that seems normal in any game, but Orks will have a tipping point. Once you've deal with so many of them, the rest will just start to crumble. Tyranids also will create a dynamic play experience where you want to kill their synapse, and the army will totally fall apart without that Synapse. In this way, both armies are still VERY much affected by Leadership, maybe even more so than many other armies, but just in a very different way. Space Marines and regular dudes will have to try to have their individual units survive like normal, but these horde armies will be playing a cautious game of protect and sacrifice.
Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).
Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.
Let's be real, I have no illusions about Orks being a competitive army in 8ed, I just hope it's not the NPE it often was under the 7th edition rules.
I ran a Green Tide formation joined by a Warboss with Big Bosspole (giving Fearless) and a Painboy (giving 5+ FNP) to the entire mob. It was literally one of the only viable Ork builds in 7th edition and it was a headache to play... moving and playing 100+ models on the table as a single unit is no small task, and it resulted in an extremely "samey" play experience every time.
The new rules eliminate the absolutely abhorrent and offensive 7th edition Mob Rule, which on its own is a massive improvement. The nerf to the Painboy hurts, but the new Mob Rule and access to KFF for all units near (not sure how close, presumably 6") the Big Mek is cool.
There will be many more details to sort through, but on the face of it, when considered within the context of what we've seen so far, if nothing else Orks will at least be FUN to play again. Most Ork players will be happy with that, and if they do OK competitively too, so much the better.
MagicJuggler wrote: Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).
Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.
Talamare wrote: So I understood that the 5+ KFF and 6+ Pain Boy are SEPARATE rolls and you're allowed to take both.
One is an invuln and one is FNP. Or the equivalent in newhammer.
And while going from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP is an objective nerf, painboyz are going to have an aoe effect, like KFFs, probably.
So, instead of giving 5+ FNP to one squad, a painboy could, potentially, give a 6+ to several. That could even out in the end.
Maybe cybork bodies could buff the FNP effect like, you know, it's supposed to.
I glanced it rapidly before heading out, and thought it said that KFF and Painboy would BOTH be FNPs, so like ... roll 6+ Tshirt, roll 6+ Pain, roll 5+ KFF So, yea that was my major error.
6+ AoE FNP reminds me of that thing that Ethreals from Tau do, and I think most Tau players have said in the past that its basically garbage like 95% of the time.
pingu wrote: Most of you are fixated on Fnp and Inv. saves, have you seen the teleport power??
You can teleport ANY infantry unit within 9 inches of an enemy unit (without scatter) and then charge in the same turn, even first !
That is completely bonkers. Can you imagine how hard will it be to play around that ? A large unit can engage more than one enemy unit if they deploy close to each other. If your enemy spreads his units across the deployment zone, you can simply teleport near one of them, kill it, and then they will have a hard time killing your teleported unit (because their units are far apart). Only way I can think of to defend myself from this is having cheap units surround my strong squishy units or just playing super heavies who dont care about ork mobs (Imperial knights for example).
I liked most of the new rules for 40k, but this kind of reliable deep striking without consequence (like we have seen with Mawloc) and ability to charge in the same turn seems really broken.
overwatch if i recall correctly will still be a thing, 9 inches away sure but then declare a charge and maybe that 9 inch becomes 11 inches away and difficult vs tau but stays 9 inches vs tyranids.
You only need to be within 1 inch for the charge to be successful, so it's really an 8+.
Talamare wrote: So I understood that the 5+ KFF and 6+ Pain Boy are SEPARATE rolls and you're allowed to take both.
One is an invuln and one is FNP. Or the equivalent in newhammer.
And while going from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP is an objective nerf, painboyz are going to have an aoe effect, like KFFs, probably.
So, instead of giving 5+ FNP to one squad, a painboy could, potentially, give a 6+ to several. That could even out in the end.
Maybe cybork bodies could buff the FNP effect like, you know, it's supposed to.
I glanced it rapidly before heading out, and thought it said that KFF and Painboy would BOTH be FNPs, so like ... roll 6+ Tshirt, roll 6+ Pain, roll 5+ KFF So, yea that was my major error.
6+ AoE FNP reminds me of that thing that Ethreals from Tau do, and I think most Tau players have said in the past that its basically garbage like 95% of the time.
so take 30 boys with zero ap bolters. they get shot with 10 bolter shots from space marines. 6.6 hit, 3.3 wounds.
7th edition means 3.3 dead orks no armor save
8th edition 2.74 dead orks with armor save 6+ (~17%)
if they get the 6+(~17%) fnp after then 2.27 dead orks
if stacked with KFF 5++(~33%) then you have 1.5 dead orks meaning over half of nonrending wounds would be ignored
now anything with a rend value will of course change this but with the stacked save you lose less than half the current orks
assuming they were rending then 6+ (~17%) fnp takes 3.3 wounds to 2.74 and if in kff range 5++(~33%) 1.8 dead orks. still a pretty signifigant % not over half sure but 46% reduction
granted this is highly rounded napkin math so off by a few % probably but in the right ballpark
So, my combo of 30 shootaboyz and a wierdboy is finally playable.
Overall
- Ork horde is going to be somewhat more resilient with layering buffs. But we have no idea how resilient our indeps will be. Cause the moment we face a bunch of snipers...bb painboss, mek and wierdboy. Taking into consideration Guilliman's got 8 wounds, i doubt we'll see our non-warboss indeps with >4 wounds. And if painbosses and wierdboyz still have no access to armor, i'd expect to loose them in the first few turns. In this regard, vehicles can be more stable. Just in a sense that they aren't countered by a bunch of sniper drones. If you're running a footslogging horde, it might still be a good idea to still have a couple empty trukks to tokyo-drift in front of your indeps and eat overwatch + disrupt the enemy frontlines later on.
- We can effectively ignore morale with suffecient numbers - that means that even if you play bike spam or trukk rush, it could be a good idea to have a 30-strong blob to be an anchor for your army ld tests. Well, if you can keep up the speed - needs to be seen. If orks are movement 5 and trukks are movement 15, it can be problematic.
- Manz are even tougher now.
- Big choppas are power maces with 2 damage. Wonder how much they'd cost.
- Boyz are going to deal less initial damage in mellee but more will survive and the enemy will probably suffer some extra battleshock casualties later on.
- We still have no clue about how quick we are.
I must admit when I first read the Painboy's ability I took it as a nerf. However reading this thread has given me the idea that his FNP covers any units in his range as opposed to a single group. If this is the case I feel much better about him. Everything else looks pretty good though.
Alcibiades wrote: A 6+ Feel No Pain is a 17% increase in survivability, almost 1 in 5, and is only insignificant in a strange fantasy world where math is different.
Alcibiades wrote: A 6+ is a 17% , almost 1 in 5, and in a strange fantasy world where math is different.
In 7th edition you have no save and a 5+ FNP In 8th edition you have 6+ Save and a 6+ FNP
Hopefully the Painboy's ability will also stack with Cybork Body, unless Cybork Body goes back to being an invulnerable save or does something completely different (or ceases to exist).
I wonder if there will be Cyborks in the Forgeworld book? They don't make a specific model for them IIRC. Hopefully they don't get rid of them. They used to be in the regular Ork codex (it might have been WD) so maybe they'll make a return.
Also, if you're very deliberate with your buff bubbles, you could probably get the extra 6+ to, I dunno, 90 Boyz, if you chain a couple Boyz from 30 strong mobs to the Painboy? I'm sure with average luck, the prevented casualties will add up. With a little above average luck, your opponent may groan when your blobs absorb more shots than they really ought to...
I could see rushing some Trukks/bikes/Da Jump to force early (turn 1 or 2) close combats, tying up a bunch of shooty units while the large morale hordes and IC buff bubbles slog.
What I really want to know is whether it'll be worth bothering to convert one of my bikers to a Painboy or not.
MagicJuggler wrote: Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).
Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.
lonestarr777 wrote: I don't think 6pt boyz deserve better than a 6+ save, I always happily paid my 4pts to give them eavy armor and a decent save of 4+.
What I think is why the feth should I be excited about occasionally getting to roll for a 6+ save thats bairly ever gonna fething happen or be a available. I'll sooner chuck 14 boyz in the deadpile than roll a fistful of dice cause two might not die, its a waste of fething time and nothing to be thrilled over. Oh but you get to roll 12 dice again on the offchance, oh, no sixes? Yeah their still dead.
What I want to have a better invuln save of some kind are my fething nobz or warbosses but theyll probably be stuck with the stupid once in a game miracle save while they still get fething blendered.
Those 2 you save then means you lose 2 less to battleshock, which means you have 4 more boyz than you would have had, therefore increasing your leadership for next turns battleshock by 4, saving 4 more boyz. Rolling those 2 saves just ended up saving 8 boyz in 2 turns. Scenarios like this occurring will be very regular.
In general, Orks seem to be getting helped along by, not just their new rules, but also a fair few structural game changes that benefit them.
The special rules changes that will help them out quite a bit are Mob Rule and 'Ere We Go of course. Your leadership being equal to the mob size as well as providing a bubble effect for nearby units will make a 30-strong unit of Orks on foot a massive boon to all the specialist units around them and actually makes proper hordes a thing for Orks. Re-rolling charge distance will mean they get that charge off more often and get to strike first more.
But the big boons for them are structural changes that will make sure the army hums along better than it used to.
First and foremost, toughness 4 is likely the most improved value of tougness among the common values found on basic troops. What few low-strength weapons existed still wound it on the same numbers, but more importantly, that all important S6-7 bracket that used to be preferred no longer does them in on a 2+. This means most anti-infantry weapons will be wounding on a 3+ down from a 2+ (except the long-ignored S5 stuff that might see more play these days). Next, anything that was AP5 or worse in the old edition now allows Orks to save. Considering how deadly basic small arms used to be to Orks you will now expect to keep a few more Orks when facing down normal infantry fire. Combined with owner-chosen casualties, this means no more charges ruined by OW fire.
The next gigantic change is assault. First, Orks are no longer relegated to striking in initiative order. If they charge, they strike first. More than that, alternating activation actually favours large units that can send all their attacks through at once in subsequent rounds of combat. With re-rollable charges Orks are looking at initiating contact more often and with the Mob rule, they benefit from having at least a few proper horde units.
And of course slugga boyz are going to like the new pistol rule for giving them a bit of ongoing firepower on their own turn if they're locked in assault.
There is also a better than even chance that WS4=WS3+ now, which means that Ork attacks in hand-to-hand are likely to land a lot more often. But that's just speculation on my part.
Beyond that, tougher meganobz, Da Jump being back (and basically giving Orks some alpha-strike potential using foot-slogging units), area-effect buffs, and the possibility that all of those walkers and vehicles may actually stick around for a bit instead of imploding if an auto-cannon so much as sneezes in their direction and it looks like a lot of their major woes are getting handled not just by specific rules, but also by the structural changes of the game itself.
Hopefully that'll be enough to let them krump stuff good and proper. I enjoy my friend's "looted everything" Ork list and hopefully playing against them will be fun and challenging again.
MagicJuggler wrote: Orks really are...kind of dull, I find is the main issue. In 7th, one of the most important tactical considerations is "when to Waaagh" which is usually either "never" (Zhadsnark) or "always" (Green Tide).
Be it Mek Guns/Grabbin' Klaws allowing the movement of enemy units, KFFs with variable buffs (akin to a Krielstone), etc.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
He's saying they're boring, simple enough.
More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.
Galef wrote: I think the big reason why people aren't happy with Mob Rule and Synapse is that GW said Morale would affects everyone, with only a few units being immune.
While Orks and Nids really do need the assist, they can basically "game" the system that GW said wouldn't be "gamed'.
That said, I love the idea that horde armies are back. Hopefully Daemons also have high LD as they do in AoS and can be taken in large units.
It's also entirely possible that the way these rules work are a bit different then they have been presented.
For example: Mob Rule says a unit can use their unit size as LD, or the LD of nearby units. What's the range? More importantly. do they get to use the unit size LD of that nearby unit, or just what is on the other unit's datasheet?
Synapse too might have a smaller range, meaning less overlap is possible and each Synapse creature that dies creates a gap to exploit.
-
That first paragraph is just people not knowing what 'immune' means.
Space marines were immune to leaderdhip because they ignored all of the negative effects of morale just by being space marines. They didn't have to do anything to gain that immunity they were immune by existing and there was nothing for your opponent to do in response.
Orks and Nids in 8th are NOT immune to bravery, they have deliberate, non-trivial decisions they have to make in list building and on the table to mitigate leadership while the opponent had specific actions they can take to increase the enemies volatility in terms of leadership.
It's not immunity, it's TACTICS and people seem to be ignoring that fact, probably because we haven't actually needed to use tactics since...either Cabal or Angels of death whichever one came first.
So, I know most wargear options don't affect a unit's power level, but I wonder if that will be the case with heavy armor.
Since it affects the whole unit, I imagine it will make them a point or two above their normal listing.
Unless they simply make 'ard Boyz a separate troops option (giving them three one horde tough unit, one medium infantry unit and the grots who are simply cannon fodder)
Going back to the 4th edition Mob Rule, now with no cap and being able to also LD buff nearby ork units is probably my favorite change so far. Boyz being the anchor for other units is a very unique take on it, and it's nice to see a reason to take normal troops that isn't "special weapon vehicles".
Choppas being just +1 attack is slightly dull by not unsurprising, and could have been a worse. What I want to know is that, currently, shoota boyz don't trade in their choppas when they get the shoot so they might actually have the same amount of attacks as they do currently on the charge. Perhaps slugga boyz will get something special other than being able to shoot their sluggas in combat (assuming sluggas themselves don't get an upgrade. Pistol 2, anyone?).
I'm not too upset about the painboy's fnp dropping from 5+ to 6+. While the painboy being moved to HQ made sense, I felt like it basically made him mandatory to take, and in multiples. Now you can take one to slightly buff several units. the more annoyng changes is you're going to be making a LOT of rolls for 6s, so I personally am going to stick my pain boy next to my elite units only and focus on keeping my boyz alive in other ways.
The Waagh! is an all the time buff! I'll miss the set up to the Waagh!, but stratagem will probably replace that. Heck, there'll probably be a way to increase his range.
Also, is says " the ‘Ere We Go special rule that allows Orks to re-roll failed charge rolls". So does that mean it rolls both dice instead of just one?
More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.
I understand that he was saying they were boring, it was more the reasoning why that was confusing me. I followed that he thought that Ork armies don't make many decisions, but I'm not sure how they make less than other assault armies or gunline armies. I could definitely be missing something though.
The Mek Guns/Grabbin Klaw and KFF comments are what I found the most confusing.
If something, i've been making way more decisions with footslogging orks rather than with...basically any other army. Just too many weaknesses to address. That's actually one of the reasons i moved from footslogging to trukks. I felt exhausted after fielding hordes. All the micro-management with movement took 80% of the game turn. Bauble wraps bauble wrapping bauble wraps that are trying to persuade the enemy they're not bauble wraps and in fact dangerous. But all they really do is move around, score and die. And if you decide to just go "WAAAGH! I'm a mean green ork and i'll rush forward and smash 'eads" - you just loose without any chances.
7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.
Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.
Am I the only one wondering whether we will see rules for looted vehicles? The are no models currently in production for them (not officially, anyways, such as a Rhino kit with an Ork vehicle sprue or gubbinz bitz stuck in the box as well, for example), and though there is a PDF freely available for them, the official Codex didn't have the looted vehicle in there as well.
Or did I miss mention of this in the faction focus somewhere?
remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.
Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!
Lance845 wrote: 7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.
Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.
Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.
Nithaniel wrote: remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.
Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!
It will actually say "over nine inches" so you would need to roll a nine. But with rerolls I am pretty confident it will work out.
Nithaniel wrote: remember that the new rules state you have to be within 1" for combat so using Da Jump to get 9" from something then having to roll over 8" with Ere We Go on one dice and CP for the other dice this is actually more of a threat than I first thought.
Using Da Jump on orks is one thing but what about jumping a unit of burnas and letting flame then saying charge me fool I know you want to!
Flamer's range is 8'. And you ds within 9. Don't think it's a coincidence.
Lance845 wrote: 7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.
Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.
Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.
I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.
Lance845 wrote: 7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.
Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.
Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.
I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.
I know a lot of people who CHOSE to play without using the most broken aspects of 7th edition while still playing as competitive as they could with said lists.
7th was incredibly deep and had a ton of tactical choices. Arguing to the contrary just seems in my eyes.
Well, I'm a Trukk Boy spammer, but LD 12 is still alot better than Ld7 (which is definitely getting lowered, since Marines are now 7). I also tend to take min sized lootaz, but that can change now. I don't exactly like playing Foot mobz , but I'll take any advantage I can!
Lance845 wrote: 7th did have tactics. It was primarily positioning so as to maximize the sledge hammers you swung back and forth at each other.
Tactics existed, it was just extremely shallow. 8th is shaping up to have mjch more depth of strategy. Not quite as much as i would like. But defi tely big steps in the right direction.
Tacticts still exist in 7ed, 40k is not only the tournament scene in which there are only three, maybe four, lists.
I dont, and have not, played in tournements and do not play the typical tourney lists. Its not about power. List building is strategy. What you do with it on the table is tactics. The tactics in 7th was swinging your biggest possible sledge hammer and then weathering their biggest possible sledge hammer.
I don't know a single win-at-any-cost player. 40k is a game and if you are among friends having fun is the only thing that matters. That's why we only play with pre-arranged lists in order to creat a balanced match. Broken stuff and formations are not banned but overall both lists must have concrete chances to win the game. Even a 70-30 or 40-60 is a balanced game imho.
Am I the only one wondering whether we will see rules for looted vehicles? The are no models currently in production for them (not officially, anyways, such as a Rhino kit with an Ork vehicle sprue or gubbinz bitz stuck in the box as well, for example), and though there is a PDF freely available for them, the official Codex didn't have the looted vehicle in there as well.
Or did I miss mention of this in the faction focus somewhere?
Looted vehicles fly in the face of the "no rules for something without a model" rule, because they've historically been made via conversion or kitbashing a different faction's vehicle. One one hand giving them a model would restrict creativity, on the other giving them none would be confusing for newer players and make it a model without anything to compare conversions against in terms of size and model footprint. Maybe we could get "looted" sprues designed for rhinos, chimeras, wave serpents, and each other "chassis vehicle" from each faction (a universal one would have problems as half of the vehicles in this game are metal boxes and the other half are irregular shaped), complete with a killkannon and the other ork vehicle upgrades along with armor plating and ork gubbins.
with looted vehicles I would prefer they just be able to use any factions vehicles but at a % discount in points for the lower ballistic skill to 5+ btu that would be complicated as suddenly you have say a lascannon predator giving orks access to lascannons though only hitting on 5's also giving them access to gausss etc.
worse case though give em a looted wagon like the white dwarf one and just make it chinos and chimeras as the most common transports for them to get ahold of likely and let people kitbash their own using those same rules but with devil fish or wave serpants.
Didn't they do away with the Looted Wagon in 7th and then faced a pretty strong backlash so they brought it back?
Something that would be cool, but probably too hard to balance, would be to basically to give the orks a "build a wagon" system kind of like the old Vehicle Design Rules. They could have a system for putting together anything from a light buggy to a giant Kill Tank, with sizing guidelines and rules for whether it counts as Fast Attack, Heavy Support or Lord of War. That said, it seems like it would be too hard to balance and open the door to a lot of exploitation by WAAC players.
One potential benefit to eliminating vehicle armor facings might be that we can convert looted vehicles without worrying so much about if people think we're modeling for advantage. Doing fun conversions and looting things is one of the best things about playing orks.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Didn't they do away with the Looted Wagon in 7th and then faced a pretty strong backlash so they brought it back?
Yup, they brought it back as a free PDF and in White Dwarf. It still was lackluster for being an Ork vehicle, but they tried to make things better after leaving it out of the Ork Codex.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Something that would be cool, but probably too hard to balance, would be to basically to give the orks a "build a wagon" system kind of like the old Vehicle Design Rules. They could have a system for putting together anything from a light buggy to a giant Kill Tank, with sizing guidelines and rules for whether it counts as Fast Attack, Heavy Support or Lord of War. That said, it seems like it would be too hard to balance and open the door to a lot of exploitation by WAAC players.
This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: One potential benefit to eliminating vehicle armor facings might be that we can convert looted vehicles without worrying so much about if people think we're modeling for advantage. Doing fun conversions and looting things is one of the best things about playing orks.
Waaagh! My brother converted an Empire Steam Tank into a Looted Wagon, and it is awesome!
BunkhouseBuster wrote: This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.
Putting it the Narrative Play section is a really good idea. It gives us a lot of room for creativity while still giving us some guidelines and some legitimacy. It also solves the problem of the rules being abused in tournaments. I like it!
I never thought about looting a Steam Tank, but that is good idea. It seems like it would work well. I'm thinking about maybe looting a Kharadron Overlords airship and making a zepplin version of an ork superheavy bomber.
BunkhouseBuster wrote: This is a perfect thing for a Narrative Play section in the Ork book to have! In the Kharadron Overlords book, it gives you options to make your own custom "Chapter Tactics" for the army, so I could see custom units for some armies being a thing, especially Orks.
Putting it the Narrative Play section is a really good idea. It gives us a lot of room for creativity while still giving us some guidelines and some legitimacy. It also solves the problem of the rules being abused in tournaments. I like it!
I never thought about looting a Steam Tank, but that is good idea. It seems like it would work well. I'm thinking about maybe looting a Kharadron Overlords airship and making a zepplin version of an ork superheavy bomber.
Ooh! Looted Kharadron Overlords? Yes, please! We want pictures!
If I do it I'll make sure to post pictures. I'm waiting to see what's in the Forge World book for the orks. I'd like to model it so that it makes sense with the superheavy bommer rules. I also need to see if I can dimensions on the bommers so that it is in the same ballpark in terms of size.
I'm also excited to see the FW book as I picked up a Deffrolla Battle Fortress not that long ago, and I'm really hoping we get Kustom Stompa rules.
More specifically, cognitive dissonance has coerced Magic Juggler into trying to prefer 7th edition to 8th as much as humanly possible.
I understand that he was saying they were boring, it was more the reasoning why that was confusing me. I followed that he thought that Ork armies don't make many decisions, but I'm not sure how they make less than other assault armies or gunline armies. I could definitely be missing something though.
The Mek Guns/Grabbin Klaw and KFF comments are what I found the most confusing.
Hey, so I realized I posted but forgot to put the rest of the comments in! One of the major issues Orks have (and of course, YMMV), other than a bad Foc, bad transports (bad because they trick you into thinking small units of Orks matter), and a laundry list of missing tools that can make them truly all-comers, is that most their units do only one thing.
Not to say a unit should be able to delete any and every threat in the game, but Orks are way more specialized in their units than the Eldar (who lost all privilege of being called the "specialist army" ever since 6e Wave Serpents) and many of their units are effectively "an entire unit of Ork Boyz, with a weapon." This isn't 30k, where you get Tactical Squads with no specials, and Legion Supports with all the flamers! (Ha!). Personally, I like how several Chaos Space Marines units work (at least the functional stuff, rather than the "hurr, I only fight things in melee" units like Berzerkers/Possessed), as several of their units can be considered "exotic generalists."
While some armies have reliable generalists or ones with a viable general-purpose gimmick, other armies have options that allow for certain "tech-play" as well, from something as simple as Guard Orders or the craziness of Canticles, or "pick a buff" effects, or even special tricks that let you move enemy units around (sadly far less common from 6th onward; RIP Magna-Grapples and Mawloc shoving, but hello Death is Not Enough, or assorted formations).
By contrast, I've found that the most notable decision Orks get to make is not even "when to pop a Waaagh" because unlike 4th Ed where you got a Waaagh no matter what, you need a Warboss for this. Thus, the answer tends to either be "never" (because you took Zhadsnark) or "always" (because you took a Green Tide). You aren't fiddling with reserves (unless you do solo Deffkoptas/MSU bikes), planning an Alphastrike, or otherwise doing a whole lot that actually requires much involvement for your own army (other than considerations like "if I charge these White Scars, which way will they H&R to?").
Orks could stand to use more choice in-game, and less specialization as a whole. Remember when Burnas granted armorbane in melee (hell, remember when a Big Mek could *take* a Burna), Turbo Boostas were equipment for both vehicles and Mega Armor, or even the crazier bits of 2nd edition when their artillery did lots of wacky yet abuseable stuff? Not to mention they also had the goofiest Psychic Power, Kop Dis, which let them push "remain in play " templates around. Orks should be dangerous because they have the tools to use in unorthodox ways that take their opponents off guard, with a good dash of humor (at both the Ork and opponent's expense). One example would be allowing a Mek to "fiddle with the worky bits" of his Kustom Forcefield (isn't it ironic that it's called Kustom yet they always work the same) for varied effects (I mentioned the Krielstone Bearer from Hordes because Trollbloods are in many ways the "Orks" of that setting, and the Krielstone is functionally very similar to the KFF, serving as a protective aura for what usually is a tide of warriors. However, you also had the option to buy an Elder to man it, giving a "chaser" effect: Nearby enemy units losing Stealth, dispelling debuffs on nearby units, or a temp boost to strength). Another would be letting an Ork vehicle with a Grabbin Klaw reposition a smaller Vehicle within 2" of it anywhere else within 2" ("Kharchev Powerslide"), giving actual weapon options to Flash Gits, making Kill-Dakka "choose a profile at the start of each turn" akin to an Ork Obliterator, or (at least I would have recommended this one if 8th didn't eliminate aoes) allowing Tankbustas to forfeit their movement and shooting to make a barrage attack with an AOE dependent on how many Orks are in the unit (4-7=small, 8-11=large, 12+=massive). Be it Consolidating the profiles for Ork Bommas (there's no need for a Burna Bomma vs a Blitz Bomma) and Gorkanauts/Morkanauts so they're actually customizable with a mix of wargear both practical and impractical, making an official "medium tank" for Orks so there's no need for Forgeworld for this (plus the banality of the Gunwagon vs Big Trakk choice), and replacing the Rhino-profile "Looted Wagon" with a general list of "Looted Bitz" that you can retrofit vehicles with, giving power at the cost of reliability. Hell, let Orks loot wrecked vehicles in-game if you want to go further.
There's a lot of things that could be done. Emphasizing the Mob Rule and tides of Boyz really doesn't acknowledge the fact that Orks are still fundamentally an army stuck in the design limbo that was the Gav/Jervis era of 4th ed.
From what I am seeing there isn't anything really great for the Orks.
We get 3wound Mega Nobz which is great, but since weapons now do multiple wounds per shot this might not even matter a whole hell of a lot.
We get Da Jump, and it actually functions like it should have been doing all this time. Problem is its going to still be a 9in Charge.
We got old Mob Rule (this is probably the biggest buff) but it brings back the old problem of Smaller, specialized units being all but unplayable because of LD issues.
We lost our 5+ FNP, this is a big deal and realistically, even giving it to several different units doesn't negate this. Since our characters all lacked Invuls we had to rely on that 5+ FNP to save our characters more often then not, especially if you ran Warboss on a Bike.
The +1 attack for Choppas is nice, but im wondering if this is a stacking buff. In other words, do we still get +1 attacks for having 2 CC weapons or is this basically that and our Choppas just function as they always did?
Overall I am not sold on this new edition, realistically it cant be worse then 7th which saw orks at the bottom of the heap, competing against the other no love factions for worst.
What I really wanted to see was more love for orks, especially giving us some kind of option on play style (which still might happen). 7th edition was extremely boring as an ork player. You either ran Bikes or Boyz in Trukkz. Everything else was easily killed or ignored. (if you bring up our Bully Boyz formation i'll gladly point out numerous builds that liquidated this that weren't even tournament level.)
SemperMortis wrote: From what I am seeing there isn't anything really great for the Orks.
We get 3wound Mega Nobz which is great, but since weapons now do multiple wounds per shot this might not even matter a whole hell of a lot.
From my figuring, a Meganob has a 1/3 chance to save against a Lascannon wound and then there is a 1/3 chance the Lascannon won't kill him outright. I'm not so great at the math, and the coffee hasn't kicked in, but doesn't that mean that the chances of a Meganob dying after being shot by a Lascannon are about 50/50? Throw on top a 6+ FNP if they're in range of a Painboy and the odds tip in the favor of the Meganob surviving being wounded by a Lascannon. That seems pretty great, but maybe I'm figuring it wrong.
If a Devastator Squad with Lascannons or a standard Landraider spends several turns shooting at a footslogging unit of five MANz they'll probably wipe out the nobz, but that doesn't seem too unreasonable.
With them handing out +1 T for fancy armor on the Primaris Marines there's a chance Mega Armor might do the same thing. Probably not, but I can hope! That would mean most AT weapons would only be wounding on a 3+ not a 2+. In the rare even that happens maybe MANz Wall will be the new Kan Wall..
SemperMortis wrote: We got old Mob Rule (this is probably the biggest buff) but it brings back the old problem of Smaller, specialized units being all but unplayable because of LD issues.
From the article it sounds like there will be some mechanic where a mob of orks can use another nearby mob's Leadership. So if there's a small unit of Burnas next to a big mob of Slugga Boyz maybe it will be effectively immune to Battleshock? Also they mentioned Warbosses and Nobz being able to mitigate the effects of Battleshock, so we've got a lot of options.
SemperMortis wrote: We lost our 5+ FNP, this is a big deal and realistically, even giving it to several different units doesn't negate this. Since our characters all lacked Invuls we had to rely on that 5+ FNP to save our characters more often then not, especially if you ran Warboss on a Bike.
It's hard to say yet, but maybe we'll get a Cybork Body that stacks with the FNP from the Painboy? Or it could give an invulnerable save. Or maybe Cybork Bodies will cease to exist.
The Ork faction teaser was a little light on details, but there have been bits from other teasers and the recent leaks that are making things look positive. Things like the removal of initiative, and being able to fire Assault Weapons while advancing, and vehicles potentially doing a lot of damage in close combat.
It's going to be interesting to figure out, since as I understand it flamers no longer ignore cover but cover just adds a bonus rather than an invulnerable save. Now weapons with good AP are going to be better for removing units from cover. So, maybe Kustom Mega Kannons are going to be really good at dislodging units hiding in cover? I don't think they've released rules for other flame weapons yet, so maybe Burna Bommers will get a bonus attack against units in cover? Heck, maybe Flash Gitz will be really useful depending on how they do the new rules for them.
The rules for some plasma weapons have been leaked. It looks like human plasma weapons don't Get Hot unless the player chooses to super charge them, in which case they get +1 Strength and +1 Damage. It also looks like now if a weapon does get hot the model using it is slain, so it's a bigger deal for models that used to have multiple wounds and/or good armor. I'm not sure if Kustom Mega weapons will have something similar or not. I just can't see orks not choosing to supercharge their weapons. Still, it makes putting a Kustom Mega Blasta on a Big Mek in Mega Armor pretty risky since he probably won't hit anything with it anyway. Maybe the rules will be different for orks and/or characters with plasma weapons.
human plasma weapons were, more or less, the worst plasma weapons of the game, including orks xD. Now are the better ones by the grace of the emperor (to much evident they want make primaris marines beasts so people buy them).
The main problem is unit like lootas and such kind of units with low armor. They wil lsave at 5+. A heavy bolter rest 1, the new bolter rifle from the primaris also rest 1. And surely a lot more of weapons with lot of shoots will reduce too....so from save more or less a 50% to save a 90% or none xDD
Well, if that comes with a point cost drop or they give a 4+ save...ok xD
I'll be honest, if Orks get the Marine plasma rules, as a rule I'd probably Overcharge mine all the time because, you know, Orks.
On a different note, I don't think Ork boyz need to get cheaper, but the 'Ard Boy upgrade does. With things like the Primaris bolters and what Skitarri Rangers look like they might be (they might be -1AP based on the current stats) the upgrade means we'd only have a 5+ save.
On a different note, anyone else think of stealing the Slab Shield from Ogryns for 'Ard Boyz and Nobs?
ok, then cheaper orks and cheaper upgrades!!!! winxwin xDDDDDDDDDDD
But indeed if a marine with his way better atributes, a 3+ and better rules cost 13 pts, a hard boy should cost near the half or a bit more. For example 7 or so points since a tau is 8 or 9 i think and also has 4+ armor
SemperMortis wrote: From what I am seeing there isn't anything really great for the Orks.
We get 3wound Mega Nobz which is great, but since weapons now do multiple wounds per shot this might not even matter a whole hell of a lot.
We get Da Jump, and it actually functions like it should have been doing all this time. Problem is its going to still be a 9in Charge.
We got old Mob Rule (this is probably the biggest buff) but it brings back the old problem of Smaller, specialized units being all but unplayable because of LD issues.
We lost our 5+ FNP, this is a big deal and realistically, even giving it to several different units doesn't negate this. Since our characters all lacked Invuls we had to rely on that 5+ FNP to save our characters more often then not, especially if you ran Warboss on a Bike.
The +1 attack for Choppas is nice, but im wondering if this is a stacking buff. In other words, do we still get +1 attacks for having 2 CC weapons or is this basically that and our Choppas just function as they always did?
Overall I am not sold on this new edition, realistically it cant be worse then 7th which saw orks at the bottom of the heap, competing against the other no love factions for worst.
What I really wanted to see was more love for orks, especially giving us some kind of option on play style (which still might happen). 7th edition was extremely boring as an ork player. You either ran Bikes or Boyz in Trukkz. Everything else was easily killed or ignored. (if you bring up our Bully Boyz formation i'll gladly point out numerous builds that liquidated this that weren't even tournament level.)
Anyway, Fingers Crossed.
I think you're under selling what orks got/their interactions with the new rules.
3 wound meganobs is good at face value, but you're also massively under selling the advantage going to the new so system has. They're going to have at worst a 6+ save (assuming we can out at ap-4). That means against typical ap2 weaponry of 7th they became terminators.
It's a 9 inch charge from any unit on turn 1. And you get to reroll failed charges and you can use command points to reroll.
Mob rule is a huge buff and works to help smaller nearby units, and the warboss can stop morale issues and nobs can stop morale issues. Not really seeing the unplayable part. Yeah morale matters now, to every army and it's harsh, but orks seem to have a plethora of ways to mitigate.
Sure the painboy is only 6+ but being able to give it to multiple units is a buff (ditto with kff). That said we don't know what cybork body is and again many units don't need to the invul as much because the ap system isn't so either or now.
As far as we can tell you won't get an extra attack for 2 melee weapons, which still leaves most boyz buffed because they can shoot their pistol in cc now, which is an extra .5 attacks (since I'm guessing only fire on their own turn).
Beyond that you've neglected the massive boost to transports which should help a melee army. And the fact the new so system massively benefits armies where the typical troops got no save vs small arms. Also the change to assault weapons being able to advance and shoot means even footslogging boyz picked up buffs. All in all there is a lot to be hopeful about. Now too much random or bad costing could wreck the boyz but everything I've seen so far leads me to be optimistic.
Yup, but also regular cover now is worst to orks. When on 7th you saved on a 4+, now you have a 5+ armor. And most decent weapons but regular bolters will rest something to the save.
Meanwhile armored units will get a 2+ save, way better than before vs most of low ap orks weapons.
That is a huge general nerf to orks and hope GW take in count (even if dont think so, because since 4th they hated orks so much and always ignore them hahahaa)
Franarok wrote: Yup, but also regular cover now is worst to orks. When on 7th you saved on a 4+, now you have a 5+ armor. And most decent weapons but regular bolters will rest something to the save.
Meanwhile armored units will get a 2+ save, way better than before vs most of low ap orks weapons.
That is a huge general nerf to orks and hope GW take in count (even if dont think so, because since 4th they hated orks so much and always ignore them hahahaa)
Nerf isn't really the right term. 8th is so different from 7th most things are completely incomparable.
Franarok wrote: Yup, but also regular cover now is worst to orks. When on 7th you saved on a 4+, now you have a 5+ armor. And most decent weapons but regular bolters will rest something to the save.
Meanwhile armored units will get a 2+ save, way better than before vs most of low ap orks weapons.
That is a huge general nerf to orks and hope GW take in count (even if dont think so, because since 4th they hated orks so much and always ignore them hahahaa)
Nerf isn't really the right term. 8th is so different from 7th most things are completely incomparable.
Why? Orks go from having a 4+ Cover save against most things (5+ in trees or for intervening models) to a 5+ save if EVERY SINGLE ORK is in a terrain piece.
I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone. The cost of that base armour save is (ostensibly) accounted for in the cost of the model in question. There's no nerf there.
A direct comparison to 7th is an apples and oranges comparison anyway. It's not the same mechanic. Sure, you sometimes got a 4+ in 7th, but there were also a ton of weapons that ignored it completely. This in a context on entirely different rules for bypassing armour. It's not the same thing at all, and the comparison isn't helped by taking it out of context in both cases. You'd need to more ganular to even begin to make that comparison (and do a lot of pretty boring math).
IDK, I think there's little to complain about for Orks in 8th, at least about the stuff we know. You get saves against more things, you can stack a better FNP and/or Inv on top of that in bubbles, and you're, essentially, moving nearly 10" a turn and still firing weapons. Sounds good to me.
Franarok wrote: Yup, but also regular cover now is worst to orks. When on 7th you saved on a 4+, now you have a 5+ armor. And most decent weapons but regular bolters will rest something to the save.
Meanwhile armored units will get a 2+ save, way better than before vs most of low ap orks weapons.
That is a huge general nerf to orks and hope GW take in count (even if dont think so, because since 4th they hated orks so much and always ignore them hahahaa)
Nerf isn't really the right term. 8th is so different from 7th most things are completely incomparable.
Why? Orks go from having a 4+ Cover save against most things (5+ in trees or for intervening models) to a 5+ save if EVERY SINGLE ORK is in a terrain piece.
That's pretty comparable.
First of all, Orks never got any cover save because 99% of armies had ignores cover coming out of their butts.
Secondly, if EVERYTHING ELSE is completely different then a 1 to 1 comparison of a single small rule is ignoring just...just soo many other factors involved in what makes it good or bad that it really doesn't offer anything meaningful.
Well, the fact is that most of weapons that before ignored a 3+ armor, now wil lallow a marine in cover maybe save at 5+ or so.
But most of weapons will quit the save of the orks in cover, since is just a 5+
So where before a marine can use the cover save, now on most of cases he still can and will be near the same (since they gain a 2+ armor).
But where an ork could use the cover save, now will be worst than before or, directly, can not use it. No mention the need be all in cover xD
That is an objetive nerf compared with the previous situation. So should have some influence on how they balance the army in other aspects
Ditto with Twin-Linked Weapons. Strictly speaking, "doubling shots" versus granting flat re-rolls to-hit will favor higher Ballistic Skill versus what's in the current edition.
Not to mention the hilarity that wlll be trying to hit stuff with a Killkannon now. If you thought boom Battlewagons were bad in 7th, you ain't seen nothing yet. Maybe it will luck out and get 3d6 shots (it's a really big blast, hurhur), or maybe GW will forget to give the Battlewagon (or any of the other Orky vehicles) a special rule to ignore the -1 BS penalty on the move; enjoy trying to hit a target when you only get d6 shots and they only hit on 6s.
At least Grots can stop a vehicle in its tracks, with Tank Shock no longer being a thing.
Novelist47 wrote: I like this new edition.
Hordes of ork boys are now a viable tactic again. I better start converting some weirdboyz and painboyz.
It's gonna be difficult to fight against tough vehicles and the old super heavies with boyz on foot. Some stuff has got 20+ wounds and a 3+ save. Power klaws will probably only do D3 damage, it's gonna take a lot of Nobz to knock down an Imperial Knight!
Novelist47 wrote: I like this new edition.
Hordes of ork boys are now a viable tactic again. I better start converting some weirdboyz and painboyz.
It's gonna be difficult to fight against tough vehicles and the old super heavies with boyz on foot. Some stuff has got 20+ wounds and a 3+ save. Power klaws will probably only do D3 damage, it's gonna take a lot of Nobz to knock down an Imperial Knight!
killsaws will likely be the answer if you want to do it in foot, and someone just leaked the stats for deffrollas which are very cool (str 8 ap -2, d6 hits)
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
It's not.
If you have a 3+ save, which gets buffed to a 2+, your save is effectively twice as good (you die 1/6 times instead of 1/3).
If you go from a 6+ to a 5+, it's only 25% better (out of 6 wounds, you get 4 casualties instead of 5).
Flat +saves are better when you already have a good armor. The same way -1save is most effective against good armor (you kill twice as many termies with AP-1 weapons than you do with -0AP, whereas the bonus is pretty small on guys with 6+ saves)
"If you have a 2+ it is possible that just one die can kill you, but it is expected that it should take at least six. If you have a 3+, then it is expected that just three dice should kill."
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
It's not.
If you have a 3+ save, which gets buffed to a 2+, your save is effectively twice as good (you die 1/6 times instead of 1/3).
If you go from a 6+ to a 5+, it's only 25% better (out of 6 wounds, you get 4 casualties instead of 5).
Flat +saves are better when you already have a good armor. The same way -1save is most effective against good armor (you kill twice as many termies with AP-1 weapons than you do with -0AP, whereas the bonus is pretty small on guys with 6+ saves)
That is fallacious logic, as you're basing those percents off of existing armor saves rather than the d6 on which they're rolled. It's a straight 16.67% improved chance to save for every unit unless you're already at 2+, period.
An Ork with a 6+ will always require more than one inflicted wound to save 16.7% of time, everytime.
The mighty six up save is it's own value, if make even one you have bought another boy. If a 1W terminator doesn't make five saves then punch yourself in the nads
even more simple.
Weapons with ap -3 (is hard find better...and those usualy ignored cover and armor xD) still allow marine saves with a 5+ (nearly like before)
Now near any decent weapon will let a 6+ or zero save on an ork.
Compared when the ork has a 4+ on same ruins, yeah, is a nerf. The more armored, the better.
Also how they present the orks way better than before and with more survivor capacity becuase the normal bolter allow them use their 6+ save is....like a bad joke XD
Fenris-77 wrote: I'm not sure your logic really works there. You're saying that an across the board +1 is somehow worse for one army than another because they have different saves to begin with? It's the exact same 16.66% bonus for everyone.
Math says otherwise
Against a (chaos) space marine and his bolter, an ork and a space marine has the following change of taking a wound:
Ork: 2/3*1/2*5/6 = .27 or %27 to take a wound
Space marine: (2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3) = .11 or %11.
Now lets put that ork and marine in cover
Ork in cover = (2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3) = .22 or %22
Spess Mahrine in cover = (2/3)*(1/2)*(1/6) .055, or %5.5
So, the space marine is taking half the amount of wounds he was previously, The ork clearly is not.
But the fact is that now orks saves worst vs most of weapons than before when they are in cover. Meanwhile a marine have more or less the same.
So if one saves the same than before and other saves worst......the second is nerfed more than the first..
And I can bet that oks have not a drop in point cost.
In any case I am worried about how will change the area shoots. If they change a large area for a 1d6 shots like on leman russ, then is a nerf to orks. Think on this, the area, beside the BS2, still had a nice amout of chances to hit or fall close enough to kill a nice amount of people.
But if they change to a 1d6...will become really useless with BS2 hahahaa. They will need change into 3d6 or increase the BS
So your average roll of 3 means you will hit 1 FETHING TIME, and your highest, OMG I LOVE MY LUCK Roll of a 6 means you will hit 2 FETHING TIMES. This thing officially sucks balls unless it costs 10pts.
Ork blast weapons are going to be extremely bad now, unless crazy cheap. Regular blast weapons are pretty bad compared with what they were, and they're not also contending with ork BS of 2 (or 3 for gretchin I guess)...
unless everyones armies go up in price significantly orks are fethed this edition as well :(
Just to point out some of the highlights from this
Battlewagon went UP in price.
Killa Kanz went UP in price. (because going from 35-50 in 7th wasn't enough)
Trukkz....WHAT THE EVER LOVING FETH! They sucked at 30pts now they cost..wait for it 76pts. Are you smoking crack?
Warbikers, the only good unit we had in 7th...yup they went up in price 50%
And finally, the ever lovable, totally irrelevant Stompa, Everyone thought that at 770pts it was about 200pts over priced, Im glad GW listened because now? ITS 900PTS!
I expect prices going up for every army and the standard format to be set around 2500 points. How do you fit a 900 point stompa otherwise? It was almost impossible to stick before at 1850, and now it's even more expensive. Buggies and koptas are also double their previous cost.
Meganoz at only 25 points are suspcious though, I guess we will have to pay even for a basic TL shoota.
Blackie wrote: I expect prices going up for every army and the standard format to be set around 2500 points. How do you fit a 900 point stompa otherwise? It was almost impossible to stick before at 1850, and now it's even more expensive. Buggies and koptas are also double their previous cost.
Meganoz at only 25 points are suspcious though, I guess we will have to pay even for a basic TL shoota.
Those prices are all without any weapons/upgrades. So Meganobz will have to purchase their Power Klawz and Shootas.
Everything we have got more expensive. I think the only thing that got cheaper was Stormboyz who went from 9pts a model to 8. Keeping in mind that nobody used Stormboyz in 7th except for crazy people like me
Automatically Appended Next Post: and with that said, they are probably going to make us pay for the stupid jump pack now that I think about it. So they probably cost 12-15 a model now
well this is worrysome for my beloved orks... there does not seem to be an option for ard boys / eavy armor boyz , I have a copy of the xenos 2 book now and there is not an upgrade in the armor section of points nor a separate entry for them
also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Proof that you can say anything with numbers if it suits your rhetorical purpose.
3+ saves 66.6% of the time, and 2+ saves 83.3%
6+ save 16.6% of the time, and 5+ saves 33.3%
You can talk about the odds of failing all you like, but those two saves improve by exactly the same percentage. It's the answer to the question "How much better does cover make my armour save?", rather than, "what are my chances of failing that new armour save".. In the case of the second question then sure, odds pf failing matter, but we were talking about the across the board benefit of cover, which is indeed identical no matter what save you started with.
Back to the topic at hand though - the basic boy got +1S and +1A base for the same points. That's a massive buff, not even counting choppas and the large mob benefits. Huge deal. The cost of Tankbustas and the other elites at 17 ea is high, but that's true of most specialist infantry that packs a lot of heavy weapons.
Yeah, the vehicles are more expensive, but that's true to exactly the same extent in every list, it's not a nerf to Orks. I'm OK with the Trukk compared to a lot of other transports given the across the board point creep for vehicles. It's not awesome, it's not terrible.
IDK, it's not that I agree or disagree, it just seem slike a lot of the issues people have are a product of 8th edition generally, and that affect every army. rather than being specific design flaws in the Ork list.
G00fySmiley wrote: well this is worrysome for my beloved orks... there does not seem to be an option for ard boys / eavy armor boyz , I have a copy of the xenos 2 book now and there is not an upgrade in the armor section of points nor a separate entry for them
It might be that they're planning to come out with a new kit for them.
Orks Boyz are Redcoats in space.
3 attacks when 20 or more, defender allocates all wounds ("Ready Formation")
No more templates. ("Form Ranks")
Free Shootas. ("Muskets Ready")
Rokkits can target separate units ("Take Aim")
Infinite Overwatch ("Fire")
S4 at all times, even when charged. ("Fix Bayonets")
Fenris-77 wrote: Proof that you can say anything with numbers if it suits your rhetorical purpose.
3+ saves 66.6% of the time, and 2+ saves 83.3%
6+ save 16.6% of the time, and 5+ saves 33.3%
You can talk about the odds of failing all you like, but those two saves improve by exactly the same percentage. It's the answer to the question "How much better does cover make my armour save?", rather than, "what are my chances of failing that new armour save".. In the case of the second question then sure, odds pf failing matter, but we were talking about the across the board benefit of cover, which is indeed identical no matter what save you started with.
Back to the topic at hand though - the basic boy got +1S and +1A base for the same points. That's a massive buff, not even counting choppas and the large mob benefits. Huge deal. The cost of Tankbustas and the other elites at 17 ea is high, but that's true of most specialist infantry that packs a lot of heavy weapons.
Yeah, the vehicles are more expensive, but that's true to exactly the same extent in every list, it's not a nerf to Orks. I'm OK with the Trukk compared to a lot of other transports given the across the board point creep for vehicles. It's not awesome, it's not terrible.
IDK, it's not that I agree or disagree, it just seem slike a lot of the issues people have are a product of 8th edition generally, and that affect every army. rather than being specific design flaws in the Ork list.
Boyz got +1 strength and lost Furious Charge, thats fine because we needed it like crazy. We DID NOT gain +1 attacks though. Boyz have always been 2 attacks base. The bonus for Choppa sounds good but it looks like they removed the bonus for having 2 CCWs or possibly the +1 attack for Charging bonus (not sure yet) so if thats the case it looks like CC Boyz will have 3 attacks base with choppa, where as before they had, wait for it.....3 attacks base and 4 on the charge.
Warbikes, Battlewagonz, and a few others things rose in price about 50%, Trukkz more then DOUBLED their points cost, for whatever god forsaken reason they added 130pts to the cost of a Stompa. Nobody takes the stompa because it sucked in 7th. Now they increased the cost, took away blast weapons (the only way to hit anything with the stompa) and gave us more weapons then Jam and cant be fired again. Yeah no thanks. I'll take that 400pt Eldar Wraithknight instead, hell i'll take 2 of them for less then the cost of a single stupid Stompa.
I am not at all happy so far with 8th. I am really hoping against hope that we get a lot of faction specific rules or klan rules that make up for all these stupidly high prices and nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and i forgot about the +1 attacks for being over 20boyz. How long do you think they will get that particular bonus? i'll give you a hint, not that long. Not when cover saves for orks got nerfed, our FNP went from 5+ to 6+ , but we do get our handy dandy 6+ armor save against bolters now right?
Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
Boyz got +1 strength and lost Furious Charge, thats fine because we needed it like crazy. We DID NOT gain +1 attacks though. Boyz have always been 2 attacks base. The bonus for Choppa sounds good but it looks like they removed the bonus for having 2 CCWs or possibly the +1 attack for Charging bonus (not sure yet) so if thats the case it looks like CC Boyz will have 3 attacks base with choppa, where as before they had, wait for it.....3 attacks base and 4 on the charge.
Also forgot the pistol which can fire during the shooting phase.
So 2A base. +1 for over 20 boyz. +1 for Choppa. +1 for Slugga.
hobojebus wrote: Yeah there's no +1 for two weapons anymore so orks are at the same attacks they were before with the chainsword change.
Except now they hit better so they average 2 hits per round (unless over 20 then it is 2.67) whereas before it was 2 hits on the charge and 1.5 after that . Static S 4 also means they wound better than before on average (same on the charge, better after).
A unit of 30 boyz in 7e against MEQ on charge = 10 wounds (assuming they all lived to attack, but given initiative that rarely happened)
In 8th against MEQ on the charge = 13.333 wounds, but they strike first.
On a non charge round
7e = 5 wounds
8e = 13.333 wounds.
So they are significantly better on average, and no worse under the best circumstances of 7th. This also discounts any pistol shooting they do in 8e.
Now 30 boys will never make it to combat unharmed but even smaller squads the advantage is with 8e on offense as they are never statistically worse than 7e given the best condition for 7e.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
I'm not sure I follow you on the gaining an attack thing, as orks had two attacks in their statline previously. (Overall I'm pretty happy with the changes regarding boyz, don't get me wrong.)
I'd like to see the stats on the trukk. I'm wondering if it will be good at smashing into things like the Battlewagon.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yes, the Boyz did indeed gain an attack. Every HtH unit in the game lost the +1A for having pistol/CCW, and the +1A on the charge. All of them. Not all of those units received a bonus attack on their statline. The Orks did, ergo they gained an attack - not relative to 7th, but in the context of 8th.
You keep comparing 7th to 8th and 8th to 8th without differentiating. Those are very different comparisons. I feel you about the Trukks, I really do, but the hike isn't out of line with what the other armies now pay for their transports. At which point I'm not 100% sure what your point is (no offense meant).
I'm not sure I follow you on the gaining an attack thing, as orks had two attacks in their statline previously. (Overall I'm pretty happy with the changes regarding boyz, don't get me wrong.)
I'd like to see the stats on the trukk. I'm wondering if it will be good at smashing into things like the Battlewagon.
The trukk is better than a rhino, but the deff rolla is the big buff to the Battlewagon in combat.
Trukk is 3A at S6 on a 5+, or S7 if you buy a cheap Wrecking Ball, no AP, 1D. Not great for anything 'ard.
And yeah, I'm crunching numbers fomr a lot of lists just now. The boyz did indeed have 2A previously. I was thinking Berserkers (I think, lotta balls in the air right now.). Mea culpa gents.
That's a bit of a bummer, I was hoping that Trukks might be more like Razorbacks except instead of shooting things with them we smash tehm into things.
Regular Nobz are looking pretty good.
Vehicles can only be repaired once a turn, so I guess there will be no loading up a 40 wound Stompa with MSU Lootas, Burnas and Big Meks and turning it into an unkillable murder mountain.
I kinda like the waag banner ork nob. And some othe rentries. Still reading trough all the datasheets its a lot to read. But there seem to be some significant nerfs and restrictions in war gear / weapon options hidden in there. Burna flamers make me wish I was I space marine, and trukks have only 1 option... : (
On the other hand the bubble chucka seems fun. in a odd time consuming way : )
Breng77 wrote: Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Seems pretty good, and some of the detachments are pretty Elite heavy so it doesn't seem like it would be hard to fit in a few and still have slots left over for other things.
Breng77 wrote: Anyone else think the Nob with Banner is stupid good? Your Ork boyz now hitting on a 2+ in combat. The only real downside is that he competes for a slot with other elite choices.
Seems pretty good, and some of the detachments are pretty Elite heavy so it doesn't seem like it would be hard to fit in a few and still have slots left over for other things.
yeah the more I play with detachments I'm seeing a lot of benefit to only ever taking the minimum requirements in each detachment as much as possible.
So a battalion for troops and a couple HQ, then taking a second detachment like a vanguard for an extra command point and elites. That would net you 7 CP.
I think Orks could also fill out a Brigade detachment if you went a bit more MSU with units, though I'm not sure that is the way to way to go as far as utility.
seems like the boys 1 upgrade into a nob is free too. I wonder if the nob rule that stops boys from running confers from the nob that's part of the squad?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Slugga Boyz aren't quite as good on the charge, depending on buffs, but are now better in subsequent rounds of combat.
G00fySmiley wrote: also they doubled dowbn on stupid, stompa is 900 frickin points granted it now has 40 hull points. ... I get that things went up in cost seemingly lots of stuff btu I also have xenos 1 and the wraithknight is only 405, has 25 twounds (both are the same toughness 8)
Do Wraithknights have to buy their weapons?
the 900 for the stompa only includes deff cannon, supa rokkits, and mega choppa
supa gatler is 28 points more
3 big shootas if taking as modeled 18 points for all 3
skorcha 17
tl big shoota 14
yeah is it me or is the stompa a bit lacking. It seems to me that most knights dump out just as much dmg for half the points and when you take the inv save into account do not have that much of a difference in hull points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there any titans can stomp on infantry rule that I am missing ?
oldzoggy wrote: yeah is it me or is the stompa a bit lacking. It seems to me that most knights dump out just as much dmg for half the points and when you take the inv save into account do not have that much of a difference in hull points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there any titans can stomp on infantry rule that I am missing ?
So in combat it has 4 attacks... Thats it :\ Sure its cool vs bit things with its 6 auto damage or its 3x hits on critters but no mortal wounds and no real anti horde make me doubt if it is worth the 900 points. It just seems lacking when compared to close combat monsters that are only a fraction of the point cost.
This this sure isn't close to being as deadly as my old double hellflamer claw stompa.
Pretty much confirms that I'm never going to buy a Stompa. Never had a desire for one before, definitely don't now.
I'm a bit miffed at price increases across the board (barring a few exceptions) as well. The only unit that seems to have gotten an outright buff are deffkoptas with more wounds, MANz with more wounds, and Tankbustas with loads of options.
Seriously, one of them can take a pair of rocket pistols that shoot 2 shots each. That's 4 shots total, not only in shooting, but also close combat.
Awwww, for some reason I thought that the Stompa's weapons all cost 0.
oldzoggy wrote: So in combat it has 4 attacks... Thats it :\
Sure its cool vs bit things with its 6 auto damage or its 3x hits on critters but no mortal wounds and no real anti horde make me doubt if it is worth the 900 points.
It just seems lacking when compared to close combat monsters that are only a fraction of the point cost.
This this sure isn't close to being as deadly as my old double hellflamer claw stompa.
It has two different attack profiles, one of which does a lot of damage but only one attack while the other does triple attacks but less damage (still S10, AP-2, D3 Damage).
So it can do 4-12 attacks, depending on which profiles you choose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vitali Advenil wrote: Seriously, one of them can take a pair of rocket pistols that shoot 2 shots each. That's 4 shots total, not only in shooting, but also close combat.
Isn't the weapon profile for the pair of pistols, so it's just two shots? Still a good weapon, depending on points.
oldzoggy wrote: Sure it has the alternative option to use the 3x its that gets the equivalent of 12 attacks. But are those really worth it 900+ pt?
They are only at ap-2. This thing costs as much as an small army but somehow struggles to kill a 5 man tactical squad in single round of close combat.
Spoiler:
12 & 3+ to hit -> 8 hits
8 hits 2+ to wound -> 6 2/3
6 2/3 saves on 3+ (-2) = 4,44 dead marines
You're right, that doesn't seem worth it. Small solace is that it would also *probably* kill about 3 terminators.
I'm having a hard time judging things in general. There are so many new things and different ways they can work together that my initial impressions of a lot of things are probably wrong.
I'm really hoping I'm wrong about Killkannons, they just seem awful. If they didn't reduce transport capacity so much they might be worth the cost*, or if they reduced transport capacity but were dirt cheap they might be worth it, but by both costing a bunch and reducing transport capacity they really don't seem worth it.
*It's hard to tell. It's not that bad of a weapon until BS 2 gets factored in.
yeah the removal of templates really hurts orks. But then again its really hard to say how much since we haven't played with the new rules yet. They could just have factored the pricing of things right.
All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
Na it is more than that. We where promised three things. - A perfect edition that was as balanced as they could get it. - Them listening to the player base. - All models are going to have rules on release. This created some expectations that they could not keep
While there are some serious improvements such as mob rule etc. This alone would be reason to celebrate if they didn't promise us the sky.
And there are also some serious let downs as an ork player. Most of our toys just aren't as shiny as others just look at the cool weapons that FW heavy support dread got and compare it with our stompa or our burna flamers compared to SM flamers. Some things have lost their soul such as the rarely grabba claw that would be great in this edition, and there are some serious new limitations on the customization on some of our models / units that used to be flexible. Not all our current models have rules and we have no FW support. . There are some issues that are still undressed, such as no close combat inv saves. or non stacking FNP.
My guess is that the ork codex is already written and that this is on purpose a little bland to give the codex some cool flavor..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just look at our burna boys for example they used to suck but some players loved them anyways. The promise of every unit being playable, decent transports, new mob rule and new flamer stats made them stuff of dreams.
However its hard not to be let down when you finally see the burna flamers go from "Template S4 ap5 ignore cover" to "d3 auto hits S4 ap- no ignore cover". Or to see that our tank hammers now auto remove the model using it from the game.
oldzoggy wrote: My guess is that the ork codex is already written and that this is on purpose a little bland to give the codex some cool flavor..
That seems likely. They'd have a really hard time packing all the cool stuff for so many different Xenos factions into one book.
I remember how bland the 3rd Edition BRB army rules were. At least we're not nearly as bad as those.
I think they did manage to make the Tankbustas more flavorful than they were previously. The Rokkit Pistols and Tankhammers are really fun, and the Bomb Squigz are even more dangerous.
There are so many cool things that can be done with the orks. A lot of them might be designed to work with the existing units and make seems bad on its own a lot better with a certain Clan strategem or buff from a new elite unit. There's tons of ork stuff that's been cut over the years that they could bring back with a new coat of paint as well.
One funny thing is that many ork weapon profiles have fixed damage and are actually less random than their Imperial counterparts. Maybe they figured that ork shooting with its high number of shots but low BS was random enough, and they didn't want to deal with us table flipping after finally landing a shot and then rolling a 1 for damage.
I have mixed feelings about what I see in the leaks for orks.
I just built a new unit of 30 'ard boyz shootas, and had two other units of 'ard boy sluggas. Now they are just nicer looking regular boyz? I don't get why they were removed. I was looking forward to using them now that 4+ saves are so much better. I am worried that if they are added later in a codex that maybe they would be clan specific and be Goff only, and I just started painting a bunch of my army different clan colors. Planned on making my 'ard boy shootas Bad Moon colors. Not that the color part is too terribly important as long as you play with someone who isn't picky.
The force field is now 9 inches, which is nice, but feel no pain is 3 inches and only a 6+? I spose the healing wounds thing is cool. Obviously the painboy's role is to just protect the bigger HQ and maybe a small unit of elite guys like meganobz. At least he now gets a powerklaw or killsaw like the model has, and has enough wounds to stay alive for a while.
I almost felt ok with the stompa until I saw that they had to pay more points for some of their weapons.. it does seem a bit too much still, and to have a rule that is called Bigger and Stompier but not be able to actually stomp like a spindly little wraithknight? Stupid.
I also just built a unit of 30 stormboyz, which I am excited about. They look decent other than their crap saves. I don't really know how to read Zagstruk's klaws, does it mean that only 2 of his 6 attacks are the claws? Or does he only get the 2 in place of using the choppa? 6 attacks seems like a lot, or 7 since it is a choppa. It must be 2 with the Klaws and 5 with choppa right? That still seems like a lot for one guy, he and Snikrot are beasts in close combat. As they should be
Ghazghkul is pretty awesome now, but no cybork body anymore? Did they decide that now that he has a constant 4++ that no cybork for him anymore?
I like the cost and ability to take 3 deff dreads in a squad, that then act as individual units later. They got so much better for their still decent cost I think.
Only 3 Deffkoptas per squad now. Wasn't it 5 before? Their spinning blades thing seems nice, 2d3 Str 5 attacks.
Lootas cost more and burnas are less. Although Burnas got nerfed pretty hard with the d3 hits... If you only have 5 guys and roll a 1 or 2, they get 5 hits... at str 4, ap nothing... Seems they are designed more to be in melee now, but that doesn't seem right for them.
The nob with waaagh banner seems nice, but I just realized he is rather expensive for only having a shoota with 4 shots and the banner... a +2 Str no AP melee weapon. He can't take a power klaw, which all of my banner nobs are currently modeled with... Even the finecast one that is all they sell anymore has a power fist.. I wonder if/hope this was just an oversight..
Now on to regular Nobz.. which seem a bit crazy now. Sure only one guy gets cybork out of 5, and no invuln save, but they get heavy armor for free now, and at 17 points that is much less than they cost previously right? Before it was 18(+4 for armor). So effectively 5 points less. And at base Str 5 now, it feels really good so far.
To add to this, I can then take ammo runtz for 4 points each. Which are a model now.... That can take wounds.... And I assign wounds.... And don't count towards morale, but due to the wording of mob rule they do increase the leadership of the unit. So effectively Leadership 20 as long as they don't lose someone (like when the unit next to them is getting shot at instead of them), without even caring about losses until I have lost more than 10 models (all ammo runt/ablative wounds).
Am I missing something there? Or is 4 points for an ablative wound that allows me to re-roll one shooting attack per model (until they die) worth it? The re-roll isn't even their best feature given the cost of the new kombi weapons is a bit absurd at 20/19 points. I still only hit with the rokkit on 5s or 6s if I also shoot the shoota part... 20 points seems a bit much for that.
Seriously.. ammo runts to take those anti-tank-multi-wound shots away from my nobz. Sure the other player will know to shoot small arms at the unit before the tank weapons... but hopefully only after they have wasted a round of heavy shots on them first.
And i was just about to say "at least my Orkz got better, when my other armies got nerfed" but now that just does it. Chaos. White scars. 'Ard boy trukk spam. All 3 done for.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: It sucks that 'Ard Boyz are gone. Hopefully they'll put them back in later.
On the plus side 17 point Nobz have 'Eavy Armor built in for free. That is pretty rad.
They might actually be worth taking now, which is awesome, since they're some of my favorite looking models. I'll probably pick up a box since the ones I have now are dedicated sergeants for my boyz.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: It sucks that 'Ard Boyz are gone. Hopefully they'll put them back in later.
On the plus side 17 point Nobz have 'Eavy Armor built in for free. That is pretty rad.
It does seem like a pretty good opportunity for them to freshen up Ork infantry by releasing a kit of 'Ardboyz, maybe with new weapon options. Possibly make them a dual kit of Skarboyz as well.
I do like the overall boost of Strength and free armor for some units, and the expanded weapon options for others. Flash Gits and Kommandos look like they got good buffs, which is nice as I've always liked those.
Am I missing something there? Or is 4 points for an ablative wound that allows me to re-roll one shooting attack per model (until they die) worth it? The re-roll isn't even their best feature given the cost of the new kombi weapons is a bit absurd at 20/19 points. I still only hit with the rokkit on 5s or 6s if I also shoot the shoota part... 20 points seems a bit much for that.
Seriously.. ammo runts to take those anti-tank-multi-wound shots away from my nobz. Sure the other player will know to shoot small arms at the unit before the tank weapons... but hopefully only after they have wasted a round of heavy shots on them first.
This might be an interesting move ( and the way to play orks). They do seem to take up transport space however. Notice that they are out on MANZ.. My guess is that they where meant to be used this way.
something you guys seemed to miss is the new faction rule system.
all ork units have a CLAN faction now. so if you lets say buy a trukk you have to declare which CLAN it has, ie goff, evil sunz etc (before the game starts)
special rules (like the new breaking heads for nobs or the pain/mekboy save/repair rolls) ONLY APPLY to units with the same CLAN.
so ghazskull for example has the goff CLAN tag. his waagh ability does not apply to units from other clans nor to units without a CLAN tag (like flash gitz)
LMAO Lets talk about flashgitz for a second. Nobody took them in 7th because they sucked balls. Why did they suck? No armor, random short ranged gun. So lets see what they did for them.
+1 BS YAY THANK GOD ITS A STANDARD 4+ NOW!!!!
Ohh wait, still 6+ armor, still short ranged gun, still no kustomization options at all, ohh, and still expensive as all hell. 27pts per model and i wonder if they have to purchase the snazz gun on top of that.
docdoom77 wrote: All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points... it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...
a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well
a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts
or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...
docdoom77 wrote: All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points...
it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...
a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well
a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts
or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly
to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...
To put it another way, we got BONED AGAIN! Yet another edition where GW feels the need to crap all over the Ork faction and remind us that they hate us.
looking reading and rereading the points and rules listed so far I am more and more convinced that nobody on the development team actually plays orks. I think they thought back to what was fun to play against on orks and how they loved then orks picked up models by the shovelful and then said "lets have more of that" then looked at anything that could survive a turn of shooting and said "that thing is too good for the points we have to increase it, also ard boys have to go". it is infuriating to have invested the time money in a huge ork army, the countless hours painting each individual model (well assembly lines boyz) all to a reasonably good standard only to likely be spending another edition as the games worst army.
SemperMortis wrote: LMAO Lets talk about flashgitz for a second. Nobody took them in 7th because they sucked balls. Why did they suck? No armor, random short ranged gun. So lets see what they did for them.
+1 BS YAY THANK GOD ITS A STANDARD 4+ NOW!!!!
Ohh wait, still 6+ armor, still short ranged gun, still no kustomization options at all, ohh, and still expensive as all hell. 27pts per model and i wonder if they have to purchase the snazz gun on top of that.
Snazzguns cost 0 so no. However one little trick is to take Ammo Runts which can be used as ablative wounds for them. Kaptain Badrukk also allows for rerolls of 1, and they have most of the kustomization options from the 4th edition already included (S5 instead of S4, 3 Shots instead of 2, higher penetration)
Ammo runts being only 4 points make them excellent bullet catchers.. Funnily enough this may be the most usable incarnation of Flash Gitz yet. Though I sincerely hope that in the codex they get actual options for either armor or able to kustomize their guns.
docdoom77 wrote: All the complaining about things going up in points is ridiculous. Points went up for vehicles, monstrous creatures and heavy weapons for every single faction. That's just how much they're worth in 8th edition.
a wave serpent clocks in with 107 points...
it has a 16" move t7 w13 and a 3+ save and can transport 12 models and has a shield that will reduce incoming damage by one (to a min of 1) oh and it can fly...
a devilfish is also 107 points 12" t7 w12 and 3+ save and can transport 12 models as well
a trukk has 12" move t6 w10 4+ save can transport 12 models and can ramshackle damage away greater than 1 on a roll of 6+ and costs 76 points so 30points less than their counterparts
or compare the ghost ark for 170 points with 12" t6 w14 4+ insanely quantum shields (roll a d6 if wounded, if roll is less than the damage it received, the damage is ignored) + 3" bubble extra reanimations and ability to fly
to a barebone battlewagon for 161 points with 12" t7 w16 4+ and the ridicoulous over the top buff of beeing able to move and firing all weaponory without penalties...
Pretty sure the cheapest you can get a wave serpent for is 141 (107 + 24 for Twin Shuricannon + 10 for Twin Shuricat). Whereas a Trukk comes in at 82 minimum w/ Big Shoota. That's almost a 60 point difference.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not the end of the world. I refuse to say Orks are ruined until I've run them on the table. Math and theory hammer are not that reliable.
How many Points was a serpent before? 110 base?
Normally you would have one with canons and sync cannons clocking in at about 120 points? That's a 20point increase with more shooting power (8 shots Vs 4 sync shots)
A trukk more than doubled its points (35 before with a ram) and lost its most valuable characteristic of being opentopped and so able to let CC troops drive, disembark and charge.
My favoured unit the trukkboyz (12 sluggaz with Nob pk and BP, trukk ram rokkits) went from 147 to 179 points.
Or compare 5 firedragons in a serpent with 10 tankbustaz in a trukk.
5 dragons + exarch 80-90? Points + serpent 141 so about 230 points. Should be more or less the same amount as in 7th.
10 tankbustaz + Nob an 2 bombsquigs 190? Points + minimum trukk 82 so about 270 points. Before in 7th it would have been about 190 points
Now tell me if the tankbustaz are 40 points more effective / durable than frikkin firedragons in a waveserpent.
And if their overall value really went up by 80 points from 7th to 8th
EDIT:
By the way the cannon upgrade went from 10 points to 2 or 3 points(can't remember). Because now you have to pay for the synch catapult anyway.
RedNoak wrote: How many Points was a serpent before? 110 base?
Normally you would have one with canons and sync cannons clocking in at about 120 points? That's a 20point increase with more shooting power (8 shots Vs 4 sync shots)
A trukk more than doubled its points (35 before with a ram) and lost its most valuable characteristic of being opentopped and so able to let CC troops drive, disembark and charge.
My favoured unit the trukkboyz (12 sluggaz with Nob pk and BP, trukk ram rokkits) went from 147 to 179 points.
Or compare 5 firedragons in a serpent with 10 tankbustaz in a trukk.
5 dragons + exarch 80-90? Points + serpent 141 so about 230 points. Should be more or less the same amount as in 7th.
10 tankbustaz + Nob an 2 bombsquigs 190? Points + minimum trukk 82 so about 270 points. Before in 7th it would have been about 190 points
Now tell me if the tankbustaz are 40 points more effective / durable than frikkin firedragons in a waveserpent.
And if their overall value really went up by 80 points from 7th to 8th
EDIT:
By the way the cannon upgrade went from 10 points to 2 or 3 points(can't remember). Because now you have to pay for the synch catapult anyway.
Like I said, it's not perfect. I don't expect it to be, right out of the gate. Eyeballing it, I'd say the trukk is 15-20 points more expensive than it should be. But I'm not stressing over it either. I think, overall, it'll be fairly balanced (more balanced than 7th at any rate). For every oddity that makes me cringe, there is something amazing like S4 Orks and the best version of the Mob Rule yet.
I'll play some games when it drops and make my final assessment when I have some experience with the game.
5 Fire Dragons (with an apparently free exarch) comes to 120 points actually (they're 24 points a piece, being 7+17+0). The Wave Serpent is 141 points base. So it comes to around 261 points.
10 Tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs comes to around 190 points with the trukk being 82 points. Comes to 272 points, so the difference is actually 11 points, not 40. For 11 points they get a worse gun, more than twice the amount of wounds, not sucking in close combat, and transport that allows it's passengers to shoot while embarked (it still has the Open Topped characteristic).
And the wave serpeant has better weapons, better save and can fly.
The Firedragons are hitting on 3s I believe? (I dont know) and have special rules for their weapons unless those got taken away as well? so they will be unleashing a torrent of well aimed specialist firepower. Those 10 tankbustas have shorter range, no armor, terrible accuracy but twice the amount of shots. 10 shots = 3 hits.
The difference here is survivability which the Firedragons win hands down.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: 5 Fire Dragons (with an apparently free exarch) comes to 120 points actually (they're 24 points a piece, being 7+17+0). The Wave Serpent is 141 points base. So it comes to around 261 points.
10 Tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs comes to around 190 points with the trukk being 82 points. Comes to 272 points, so the difference is actually 11 points, not 40. For 11 points they get a worse gun, more than twice the amount of wounds, not sucking in close combat, and transport that allows it's passengers to shoot while embarked (it still has the Open Topped characteristic).
oh sorry my fault. i slipped an column and thought the fblaster is 9p.
ok now it really isnt a significant point difference between both units. so it isnt as bad as i initially thought. nonetheless the price hike of both units is significant.
maybe some other can shed some light on this and check how other armys no 1 antitank unit is been treated pointwise (kabalite trueborn in venoms, sisters meltasquad in rhino etc)
The difference here is survivability which the Firedragons win hands down.
in defence of the other side... i wouldnt say per se... we will have to wait and see how the meta shifts to really gage the survivalbility. of course the serpent is more durable than the trukk but the eldar need to step out of the vehicle to shoot. tankbustaz can remain inside.
nonetheless... the price increase is my "point" here. 8% vs 32%
EDIT2: 7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p 8th -> 272p -> 32% increase
Rokkit Launchas actually have double the range, quadruple the range if Fire Dragons wants the full benefit of the Fusion Guns.
Fire Dragons also only get 2 abilities; the Exarch (not the whole unit) gets a reroll to hit, while the whole unit gets rerolls to wound against monsters and vehicles. That's about it.
Tankbustas actually have an improved version the second rule; the entire unit can reroll to hit against vehicles, but not monsters. And their trukk, for a paltry 6 points more, can swap out the big shoota for another rokkit launcha.
In fact the Wave Serpent's cost dramatically goes up the moment you start taking upgrades, which I suspect people will since a basic serpent with just a catapult and cannon isn't going to do much, while the Trukk's max cos remains low because it has few upgrades and what upgrades it does have is rather cheap. If you want two Shuri-cannons it goes up to 155 points, closing the point difference even more. Any other upgrade will start shooting the points past that of a squad of 10 tankbustas in a maxed out Trukk.
As for survivability, it all depends on what they're being shot at with. Anti-infantry guns with low AP and high volume of fire, the Fire Dragons have marginally more survivability due to their 3+ save. Against high AP guns, medium volume of fire guns, Fire Dragons starts losing out due to lower toughness and half the amount of wounds. Fire Dragons are also much more prone to being charged in melee because their gun's range is 12" while the Tankbustas can sit at a comfortable 24" range. Even if they get charged, Tankbustas are more suited to close combat, with 1 point of higher strength and double the amount of attacks (so with their already double numbers, 4 times the amount of attacks).
However all of this is just comparing the two units in a vacuum with one unit trying to match the exact role of another unit. I doubt anyone would be taking a Trukk with tankbustas for the simple reason that Da Jump is a thing. not only does that make them dramatically cheaper compared to Fire Dragons (A weirdboy costs much less than a trukk and isn't tied to just helping one unit), but it also makes them far more effective since they can either shoot things from their comfortable 24" range, or charge in with melta bombs and blow things to Gork's dank jockstraps. Likewise, the Fire Dragons get support from their Farseer.
EDIT: Another thing is Tankbustas are, surprisingly, a lot more consistent than Fire Dragons unless the latter are within their 6" effective range. Rokkits do a flat 3 damage rather than D6. While theoretically this averages out to more damage per fusion gun without rerolls, realistically it makes them less reliable in clearing out a heavy vehicle or monster if you roll badly and get a bunch of 1's and 2s. Rokkits instead consistently do 3 damage per unsaved wound, which actually makes them a lot better at guessing which unit you can and can't remove.
I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.
So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.
Breng77 wrote: I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.
So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.
right until the Trukk dies and the Tankbustas all die to small arms fire because they only have 6+ armor and T4.
i know that comparing the effectivness in a vacuum is kinda pointless... but comparing the increase in points for similar units across different armies is not.
btw... just a little meaningless mathhammer
effectiveness against a vehicle with t7 and 4+ save
firedragons 5 s8 ap-4 shots
10/3 hits, lets say with rerolls: 12/3 hits. -> 24/9 or 2,7 wounds * D6 damage (avarage 3.5) -> 9.3 wounds total asuming more than 6" away or about 10.7 wounds if under 6"
tankbustaz 10 s8 ap-2
after rerolls 17/3 hits -> 34/9 or 3,8 wounds * 6+ save ~ 28/9 or 3.2 wounds * 3 dmg 9.6 wounds total
but the firedragons are not alone...
serpent 9 s6 shots (ignoring rending for simplification)
6 hits -> 2 wounds -> 1dmg
the trukk will do nothing^^ thats why you dont spend the 6 points for the rokkit
yes but i also ignored the one time squigs... so it evens out more or less... like we said. its mathammer not a representaion of actual effectivness...
btw.. mathammer the 2nd
tankbustaz vs firedragons if charged by 5 marines (sarge w/chainswrd)
survivability:
firedragons -> 6 attacks, 4 hit, 8/3 wounds, 8/9 go through so 0,9 dead dragons
bustaz: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 5/3 go through so 1.7 dead bustaz
retaliation (for simplyfication lets say 1 dead dragon 2 dead bustaz):
firedragons: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 4/3 wounds, 4/9 go through so 0,4 dead SM bustaz: 17 attacks, 34/3 hits, 17/6 wounds, 17/18 go through so 0.9 dead marines
Breng77 wrote: I said it on the other ork thread, but people are discounting opentopped a lot. Remember those fire dragons give up a turn of shooting to move in their transport. They used to fly up, hop out, and unload, now they fly up, wait, people move away, then they unload, move and shoot. Whereas the tankbustas can ride around firing rokkits out of the Trukk all the while.
So you could run Trukks at 190 and drive around firing 7 Rokkits out every turn without disembarking. For 210 you can throw 2 bomb squigs in for more damage. Seems ok to me.
right until the Trukk dies and the Tankbustas all die to small arms fire because they only have 6+ armor and T4.
And that doesn't happen to waveserpents and T3 Firedragons? Except if the firedragons have been embarked they did nothing at all, so they are forced to get out and be shot without me needing to destroy the transport at all.
c'mon you dont really want to compare taking down a trukk to taking down a waveserpent?
all this gak doesnt help at all. 10 bustaz in a trukk or 5 dragons in a serpent. one may be slightly more effective than the other idk, i havent played 8th yet. look at the price jump for similar units and take that into account. i still believe the eldar combo will be more effective especially because the serpent alone can dish out alot of firepower and take alot more punishment than a trukk... but i could be wrong here.
nevertheless take a look at this:
7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p 8th -> 272p -> 32% increase
7th 5 havocs w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 155p 8th 205p -> 24% increase or 7th 5 chosen w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 170p 8th 220p -> 23% increase
and tell me i dont have to worry that orks will be screwed all over again in 8th like they were in 6th and 7th.
oh and did you guys notice??? painboys all have powerclaws now. so that 6+ fnp bubble will cost 65 points... i guess everyone will run with grotsnik now, he clocks in with 74points and has better rules and better stats.
RedNoak wrote: c'mon you dont really want to compare taking down a trukk to taking down a waveserpent?
all this gak doesnt help at all. 10 bustaz in a trukk or 5 dragons in a serpent. one may be slightly more effective than the other idk, i havent played 8th yet.
look at the price jump for similar units and take that into account.
i still believe the eldar combo will be more effective especially because the serpent alone can dish out alot of firepower and take alot more punishment than a trukk... but i could be wrong here.
nevertheless take a look at this:
7th edition 10 tankbustaz w/nob and 2squigs in trukk w/ram 185p
8th -> 272p -> 32% increase
7th 5 havocs w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 155p
8th 205p -> 24% increase
or
7th 5 chosen w/ 4melta and rhino w/dblade 170p
8th 220p -> 23% increase
and tell me i dont have to worry that orks will be screwed all over again in 8th like they were in 6th and 7th.
oh and did you guys notice???
painboys all have powerclaws now. so that 6+ fnp bubble will cost 65 points... i guess everyone will run with grotsnik now, he clocks in with 74points and has better rules and better stats.
With the exception of the True born, all of those units have taken a hit to their effectiveness in 8th. Orks also got buffed with +1S in this edition so per model they are a bit better by comparison to say Trueborn. Splinter cannons got nerfed in that example as well, and went up in cost. Always shooting 12 shots at 36" is way better than needing to be at 18" to shoot 12 shots.
True, but Orks also lost the combat bonus for assaulting +1 strength and +1 attacks. This isn't a huge deal for them and everyone got hit with it. but realistically orks used it more then SM or Eldar or most other armies besides nids and Khorne.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those orks also lost their cover bonus against most weapons.
In ruins 4+ just became 5+.
For SMs and other 3+ save armies those 4+ ruins just gave them a 2+.
The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.
Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.
Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.
My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+
The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.
So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.
SemperMortis wrote: True, but Orks also lost the combat bonus for assaulting +1 strength and +1 attacks. This isn't a huge deal for them and everyone got hit with it. but realistically orks used it more then SM or Eldar or most other armies besides nids and Khorne.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those orks also lost their cover bonus against most weapons.
In ruins 4+ just became 5+.
For SMs and other 3+ save armies those 4+ ruins just gave them a 2+.
Wrong, orks gained +1 S all the time, and hitting on a 3+ negates the +1 attack loss, beyond which given their high base attacks they rely on that +1 far less than many other armies. Marines are half as effective without that, orks are only 25% worse, which they make up by hitting more often.
They did lose some cover bonuses but a lot ignored that last edition anyway.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The point largely is that comparing them directly to something like Fire Dragons, even if they have the same role, is extremely hard. While true that Tankbustas were never a close match for Fire Dragons pre-update, post update changed up so many things that it's even harder now to gauge them and determine who had been nerfed, buffed, or just rebalanced to match the new system. If going by old conventions then yes, it looks like Tankbustas got a nerf. But since open-topped is no longer a universal thing for a lot of vehicles, simply having that might be a huge boon to the Trukk. Similarly, 3+ armor was huge back in 7th edition and before because unless it was outright ignored, it was almost always a guaranteed save. Now it's a lot less certain since weapons will quite frequently shave it down to a 4+, 5+ or even 6+ if there's no cover around. Range might also be an issue now that there is a variable movement rate, and a lot of units can clear 12" in a single turn but not 24", which might make pure range a bigger factor too.
Like docdoom77 said, we need to wait until these get released and the community get their hands on it before we can truly determine if they're broken or not.
My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+
The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.
So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.
On the other hand almost everything ignored that 6+ before and less does now, AP5 and 6 no longer really exists. As for marines, it seems to me that a lot of CC weapons gained -1 so that hurts them.
SemperMortis wrote: My only comment is about your armor comment. Shaving it down to 4+ or 5+
The AP- thing starts at AP4 from 7th, im getting that from my orky weapons and such. My Skorcha used to be AP4 now its -1.
So IN reality your losing out against AP4 weapons because it hurts your save by 25% 3+ = 4+ . However, against -2 its a huge improvement because before that you didnt even get a save so its a 33.33% increase and against -3 (previously AP2 weapons) you gain 16.6% Saves so overall its a huge buff for 3+ armor. For Orks though...not as much. yeah we get our 6+ against AP 0 which is nice (16.6% save) but it doesn't help us at all past that. So in reality this new armor/AP system is a huge benefit for armies with good saves and about 1/3rd as good for low save armies like orks. Add in the cover rules which effectively give 3+ armor a 2+ save or a 5+ save against AP2 weapons.......Space Marines and other good armor armies just made out like bandits.. Orks again...not as much.
That is assuming all guns scaled linearly like you've suggested, which is not the case since we've already seen some guns get changed around. Again you're comparing them in a total vacuum. In 7th edition stuff like invisibility, cover and invulnerable saves were used to mitigate or ignore all of that, and many of those sources are either nerfed or removed outright. We've also seen guns and their wielders decrease in cost (and hence increase in numbers), some guns completely changed around (combi-weapons being a big one, with TL weapons being second) and so forth. So while in a 1v1 comparison a Space Marine staring down at an Inferno Bolter has gotten an increase compared to an Ork staring down the same thing, the meta of the game has changed where both armies will be facing them with a lot more frequency than before, with a lot less protection. With Orks, it's business as usual as facing a mass of AP3 weapons was essentially the same as facing a mass of AP5 weapons in 7th edition. Marines....not so much.
Like I keep saying, trying to gauge things by the standards we are used to in 7th edition is faulty, since 8th is shaping up to completely change how we approach army building and in-game tactics.
of course mecha, I'm making all these predictions based on the limited information we have at hand so far. But from what I can see, orks are going to be dying in droves compared to last edition where they were dying to fast to begin with.
Getting saves against AP5 and 6 weapons is nice like I said, but it doesn't help all that much. So now where we were losing 6 models to bolter fire we are losing 5. Compare that to Space Marines who were losing 6 models to AP4 (-1AP) before now they are going to be losing 3. So like I said, the change to AP and Armor benefits armored foes more then lightly armored foes. The change to cover is completely one sided in that regard as well. Nids and Orks are going to be suffering for yet another edition is my guess.
SemperMortis wrote: of course mecha, I'm making all these predictions based on the limited information we have at hand so far. But from what I can see, orks are going to be dying in droves compared to last edition where they were dying to fast to begin with.
Getting saves against AP5 and 6 weapons is nice like I said, but it doesn't help all that much. So now where we were losing 6 models to bolter fire we are losing 5. Compare that to Space Marines who were losing 6 models to AP4 (-1AP) before now they are going to be losing 3. So like I said, the change to AP and Armor benefits armored foes more then lightly armored foes. The change to cover is completely one sided in that regard as well. Nids and Orks are going to be suffering for yet another edition is my guess.
You are going to have to do the math here for us, cause it makes no sense, no reference to how many models to begin with, how many wounds, etc. Let's just use 10 as a number of models and wounds.
Before SM had 3+ save, so AP4 meant they got to save, 2/3 will survive, so that would be lose 4 without cover, 2 with cover.
Now SM have 3+ save AP-1 means they get to save, 1/2 will survive, so they lose 5 without cover, 4 with cover.
I'm excited to see what's in the Forgeworld Index for Orks.
There's a few things that no longer have models that I'm really hoping they include:
Looted Wagon: never had a model, but we've had them forever.
Mekboy Junka: these had a lot of interesting options, and with the Deff Rolla being good loading one up with Skorchas sounds amazing.
Cyborks: Lots of potential for fun conversions, even though I don't think the Cybork Body will necessarily be worth it. I'd also like to see the option to upgrade regular Boyz to cyborks like in the Dread Mob.
Battle Fortress: There were a bunch of different variants. I have a Deff Rolla version. I guess I can always count it as a Wagon, but that's lame.
Kill Krusha: Since the other Kill Tanks have a model I'm guessing this one will too.
Gun Wagons: They weren't very impressive before, but with the new rules they might be tough little mobile fortresses for some of our shooty units.
Of course I'm excited to see the rules for a bunch of their stuff that still have models as well.
Minor gripe (very minor): I really like the Flash Gitz kit. It's cool that they played up the pirate look, as Flash Gitz often become Freebootas, so that's pretty fluffy. From what I've read Freebootas often put Clan affiliations behind them, so I guess it's fluffy that a bunch of pirate looking orks would not have a Clan keyword. However, Flash Gitz are also supposed to frequently be Bad Moons, and are sort of a "signature" unit for the Bad Moons like Squiggoths are for Snakebites and Lootas are for Death Skulls. (That's not to say that other clans never use these units, or that the aforementioned clans don't have other units associated with them.)
It kind of makes me sad that there doesn't appear to be a way to distinguish between Bad Moon Flash Gitz and Freebooter Flash Gitz. Again, this is just a very minor gripe and it doesn't really matter as the Clan keywords have very little effect in the game currently. I'm hoping they come out with more flavorful rules for the orks down the road that make more use of the Clan keywords.
C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1
It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1
It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.
You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?
Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...
Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
You mean to tell me that the units that have a points cost applied to them for their better save end up getting better use of the games save mechanic!?
You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?
Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...
Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.
That would be fine Pedroig if they fixed the points cost for those units. Boyz just became LESS durable and stayed the same in cost. SM Just became MORE durable and dropped in price.
Low armor unit relied on cover to survive for any length of time, SM relied on cover to save them from AP1-3. Now Low armor units are just fethed all around and SMs are even more durable.
So yeah this fething sucks for Orkz and Nidz and other low save armies.
Both Frankie and Reece put Orks in their Top 5 single factions.
You're way too glum about this man, give it some time, or at least be open to SOME of the things people are telling you.
no, simply put no. Every release has factions drooling to try out new combos and to use their new power house units or buffed units that are now amazing. Since 4th we have had...none of this. For us, getting a 3rd wound on a Meganob is considered amazing. Our most OP unit last edition was probably the Mek Gunz which was really only OP because of its price and Artillery rules giving us a T7 model with 3+ saves.
I really tried to stay open minded for 7th edition, I even bought a Morkanaut, but no GW screwed us over again. Then we got the Red Waaagh Supplement or whatever the hell it was, that sucked, then we got Waaaagh Ghaz which sucked as well, then we got the new Flyer which sucked some more and then finally we got Waaagh Ghaz V.2.0 which guess what? sucked again. We had probably the 2nd most releases in 7th and our power level never rose above basement level.
8th looked really promising with some new rules and mechanics. As soon as they started to release those new rules though.....feth. Almost across the board our units got worse.
You're trying to measure the current situation against a game that no longer exists man, you had better be ready to eat crow and buy me my beer when I finally have videos to proove I'm right.
You're trying to measure the current situation against a game that no longer exists man, you had better be ready to eat crow and buy me my beer when I finally have videos to proove I'm right.
yeah because history hasn't proven me right for the last 3 editions....ohh wait.
SemperMorbid, you don't get it, you keep comparing numbers which are not relevant. What kind of Ork uses cover? Why is that Ork not in melee? What do you do, paint your Orks pink, or do you paint them yellow, cause they want to hide in cover?
Two baseline units, Tactical Squad and Boyz, the Beakers will be better shooting, the Boyz better in Melee. Not some of the time, not if there is or isn't cover, not in a certain situation, but any time there isn't a major difference in numbers. Even if the Beakers charge the Boyz, the Boyz will win the combat, with the same crap saves they've had since 1998.
Melee got better, heck it might even be better than shooting now in terms of efficiency. In the games I've been in, melee starts a domino chain, once an unit gets into melee it is rare for it to spend any following turn out of melee. And that includes "slow" Orks with their 5" move, since they usually end up with 3" consolidation, followed by a 5" move, and d6" advance, and a 2d6" Charge that can be rerolled, that's a 13" average movement with a minimum of 11" and a maximum of 26" from where the unit started its previous charge phase. (I have yet to get the max, but did get a 20" potential move by foot slogging Boyz to make an initial charge, didn't get to use it as was only 7" from the target unit after advancing..
Want to know what the best cover is, to be within 1" of enemy models, then you have a 1+ Invulnerable save since they can't shoot at that unit at all...
Peroig you dont seem to get it. YOU HAVE TO GET INTO CC.
But hey, you keep frothing at the mouth that you might have a better edition then 7th even though all the evidence so far is pointing to this being a repeat of the last 3 editions where our under power, over priced units get blown off the table before getting into CC>
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
I'll spell this out again since you apparently missed it. The new Armor system doesn't benefit the Orks half as much as it benefits Marines.
The new cover system which used to give ork boyz 4+ cover is now giving Space Marines 2+ Saves and Ork Boyz 5+ saves. A HUGE boost for Marines and a 50% nerf for Boyz.
The new TL rules slightly benefit orks *Based on 3 shot TL weapons* (before it was 1.66 hits compared to the new TL that gives 2 hits) and greatly benefits SM and similar armies (2 hits went to 4 hits) So orks gain .34 hits Marines and equivalent armies gained 2.0
Ork FNP went from 5+++ to 6+++ and our 5++ KFF save is now a bubble and the entire unit has to be inside to get that bonus.
Overall we were handed a lot of nerfs from the main rule book and all our units went up in price dramatically.
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.
Round two, let's assume the Boys swing first again. You know, the Marine player has given up on these Tacticals.
9.66 hits from the Boys, 4.83 wounds, 1.61 dead Marines.
4.93 Marines swing back, getting 3.29 hits, 1.64 wounds, and 1.37 dead Boys.
End of round two, 4.93 Marines are left standing, 3.46 Boys.
Round three, same deal.
6.92 hits from the Boys, 3.46 wounds, 1.15 dead Marines.
3.78 Marines swing, 2.52 hits, 1.26 wound, 1.05 dead Boys.
End of round three, 3.78 Marines are left, 2.41 Boys.
Round four (this combat drags on), same deal.
4.82 hits from the Boys, 2.41 wounds, .8 dead Marines.
2.98 Marines swing, 1.99 hits, .99 wound, .83 dead Boys.
End of round four. 2,98 Marines are left, 1.58 Boys.
Round five, same deal.
3.16 hits, 1.58 wounds, .53 dead Marines.
2.45 Marines swing for 1.63 hits, .82 wounds, .68 dead Boys.
End of round five, 2.45 Marines left, .9 Boys.
Round six, same deal.
1.8 hits, .9 wounds, .3 dead Marines.
1.55 Marines swing for 1.03 hits, .52 wounds, and .43 dead Boys.
End of round six, 1.55 Marines, .47 Boys.
Round seven (sweet lord, this is long), same deal.
.94 hits, .47 wounds, .16 dead Marines.
1.39 Marines swing for .93 hits, .46 wounds, and .39 dead Boys.
End of round seven, 1.39 Marines are standing, .08 Boys.
ROUND EIGHT! THE LAST ROUND! (I hope.) Same deal.
.16 hits, ,08 wounds, .03 dead Marines.
1.36 Marines swing, getting .91 hits, .45 wounds, and .38 dead Boys.
There are now 1.36 Marines standing, as compared to -.3 Boys.
Eight rounds of combat later, Marines win.
Tell me again why Boys are so good?
Edit: By the way, I assume the Ork Boys ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST. No guarantee that happens in a real game.
6 points, so 130 points would be 22 boyz? As well as that would be over 20, meaning they all get +1 attacks.
I think the only line I would need to change in your example is
"Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines."
I just need to add 8 boyz and +1 attacks for each of them... 56 attacks, * 2/3 hit chance * 1/2 wound chance * 1/3 marine save chance = 56 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 6.22 dead marines
In my experience (Granted it has been limited), but there hasn't been a game I've played or watched in person in which there wasn't CC by turn 2. You seem to think it is hard to get into CC, it isn't, Orks footsloggers have a minimum 8" move to get into CC, Stormboyz, Wartrackks, Skorchas have a minimum of 14", Warbikes and WarBuggies have a minimum of 16" and DeffKoptas, they have a minimum of 22" to get into CC, and it is a beast, you move, advance, fly over your "target unit" by at least 2", drop Bigbomm on that unit, charge that unit, and then d3x2 Str 5 attacks on the survivors. That's per Kopta...
Have you played a single game yet with the 8e rules? Or are you too busy B'ing & M'ing to play?
You don't seem to understand that Orks are closer to 2e than they have been in over a decade, mainly cause Melee is at least equal to Shooting now. When was the last time you "had" to roll 100+ dice in melee for one unit? For me it was about 2 hours ago... Wiped out Assault Terminators with it, guess the SM folks will B&M about how bad Termies still are now...
SemperMortis wrote: You wouldn't add that +1 attack because they would be below 20 before they got into CC but basically correct.
The rule doesn't say "while you have 20 boyz"
It says if you include 20 boyz. So unless they FAQ it your way, I'm going to assume just bringing 20 changes the unit forever.
No it says If this unit includes 20 or more models... Includes = has, it does say if you include, included, or starts with, it uses the present tense of includes, which means compromises, or has.
Warboss within 6" and Boyz can Advance and charge same turn, this is something you will want to make sure happens.
Just noticed that the Warbuggy/Trakk/Skorcha don't explode.
This probably won't happen, but it would kind of make me happy if all ork vehicles had both ramshackle and an increased chance of exploding, especially the Skorcha.
SemperMortis wrote: You wouldn't add that +1 attack because they would be below 20 before they got into CC but basically correct.
The rule doesn't say "while you have 20 boyz"
It says if you include 20 boyz. So unless they FAQ it your way, I'm going to assume just bringing 20 changes the unit forever.
No it says If this unit includes 20 or more models... Includes = has, it does say if you include, included, or starts with, it uses the present tense of includes, which means compromises, or has.
Warboss within 6" and Boyz can Advance and charge same turn, this is something you will want to make sure happens.
I like how you said "No it says" then repeat my words.
If the unit includes 20 models you add 1 to the characteristic. PERIOD.
It doesn't say "you add 1 to the characteristic until the unit goes under 20 models." Stop adding your own personal rules or words to the game.
Again, unless a FAQ proves otherwise...
I am the first who will love that the ork unit remain the extra attack even if drops from 20... I don't think it works that way hahaha.
True that sadly usually never they will arrive to combat being more than 20 so never will get that extra attack. But I think that the intention of the rule is clear: give the extra attack if there are 20+ orks.
At least by the moment I think that hahaha. Maybe I am wrong
Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Let's compare 10 Marines (130 points) to 16 Boys (128 points).
Spoiler:
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 (or are they Assault 1?) guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 2.2 hits, 1.1 wounds, .37 dead Marines.
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 12.84 hits, 6.42 wounds, 5.35 more dead Boys.
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (I don't think you can advance and charge), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 5.25 hits, 2.62 wounds, .87 dead marines. 1.24 dead Marines total.
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it in more than 90% of the time. Course, Marines overwatch, getting 2.92 hits, 1.46 wounds, and 1.22 dead Boys.
Close Combat! There are 8.76 Marines left, and 6.65 Boys left. Each Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 13.3 hits, 6.65 wounds, 2.22 dead Marines.
End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.
Round two, let's assume the Boys swing first again. You know, the Marine player has given up on these Tacticals.
9.66 hits from the Boys, 4.83 wounds, 1.61 dead Marines.
4.93 Marines swing back, getting 3.29 hits, 1.64 wounds, and 1.37 dead Boys.
End of round two, 4.93 Marines are left standing, 3.46 Boys.
Round three, same deal.
6.92 hits from the Boys, 3.46 wounds, 1.15 dead Marines.
3.78 Marines swing, 2.52 hits, 1.26 wound, 1.05 dead Boys.
End of round three, 3.78 Marines are left, 2.41 Boys.
Round four (this combat drags on), same deal.
4.82 hits from the Boys, 2.41 wounds, .8 dead Marines.
2.98 Marines swing, 1.99 hits, .99 wound, .83 dead Boys.
End of round four. 2,98 Marines are left, 1.58 Boys.
Round five, same deal.
3.16 hits, 1.58 wounds, .53 dead Marines.
2.45 Marines swing for 1.63 hits, .82 wounds, .68 dead Boys.
End of round five, 2.45 Marines left, .9 Boys.
Round six, same deal.
1.8 hits, .9 wounds, .3 dead Marines.
1.55 Marines swing for 1.03 hits, .52 wounds, and .43 dead Boys.
End of round six, 1.55 Marines, .47 Boys.
Round seven (sweet lord, this is long), same deal.
.94 hits, .47 wounds, .16 dead Marines.
1.39 Marines swing for .93 hits, .46 wounds, and .39 dead Boys.
End of round seven, 1.39 Marines are standing, .08 Boys.
ROUND EIGHT! THE LAST ROUND! (I hope.) Same deal.
.16 hits, ,08 wounds, .03 dead Marines.
1.36 Marines swing, getting .91 hits, .45 wounds, and .38 dead Boys.
There are now 1.36 Marines standing, as compared to -.3 Boys.
Eight rounds of combat later, Marines win.
Tell me again why Boys are so good?
Edit: By the way, I assume the Ork Boys ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST. No guarantee that happens in a real game.
Did you factor in the shooting phase? I'm sure that would tip it in the marines favor, firing pistols in cc is more effective for the marines the orks after all.
I could see the ruling going either way, dependent on GW's FAQ - that said, as it currently stands, I think Talamere has it right. Including 20+ Boyz in a unit grants them all +1A. That would give you a reason to take a horde army, even if they might not all make it to melee.
Also, I really hope this doom and gloom regarding Ork balance ends up panning out to be just 8th edition inexperience; I love Orkz, and would also love to see them be a solid army this edition around - something I can invest into knowing I'm buying more than just the fluff this time around.
That said, at the end of the day, Orkz is the best army regardless of the rules; they'z never beaten in battle.
Did you factor in the shooting phase? I'm sure that would tip it in the marines favor, firing pistols in cc is more effective for the marines the orks after all.
His math is a mess, don't consider it. Just from the get go is wrong as he says boyz are 8ppm when they are 6ppm, effectively making this match up be 10 marines vs 21 boyz. It's not even funny because he treats shootas as assault 1 instead of assault 2 (which is their actual stats) and instead of actually double checking/proof reading he goes and keeps on with the model!
For my OCD's sake, here's a simulation using some of his principles and the actual math.
They begin 24 inches away.
M=> 6.666666 hits. 3.3333333 wounds. 2.7777777 dead boyz. So 18 remain after rounding up.
Orks => Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They do 36 shots. They do Six hits and three wounds, effectively killing a marine.
M=> Move up to rapid fire range. 18 shots. 12 hits. 6 wounds. 5 boyz dead. No battleshock yet.
Orks=> Boyz move up 5'', 8.66666 hits. 4.3333333 wounds and 1.44444 dead marines. Two and a half dead marines by now.
Now they charge. 90% chance that they make it. Over watch results in 1 dead ork. Twelve remain.
Orks=> Boyz do 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds. 2.6666666 marines. Half of the marine squad's been wiped out by now.
Marines fight back=> five attacks. 3.333333333 hits. 1.666666 wounds. 1.4 dead boyz. 10.6 remain.
Marine turn.
Marines shoot=> 1.4 dead boyz. 9.2 orkz remain.
Marines fight back=> 1.4 dead boyz. 7.8 orkz remain. For simplicity's sake and to compensate the first rounding down, it's 8 boyz remaining.
Boyz activate: 16 attacks, 10.6666 hits. 5.33333333 wounds and 1.777777777 dead marines. 3.3333333333 remain.
Now it's the ork turn.
Boyz activate: 16 attacks, 10.66666 hits. 5.33333333 wounds and 1.77777777 dead marines 1.55555555555remain.
Bolt pistols and CQC attacks combined make 3.1 attacks, which turn into 2.07 hits. 1.035 wounds and 0.864 dead boyz.
Orks activate and have now 6.7x2 attacks. 8.9 hits. 4.45 wounds. and 1 dead marine.
Next ork turn the remainder is dead.
Orks have lost 14.3 boyz at a total of 85.8 points of casualties. Marines have lost 130 points and ten guys. Orks stomp the fight if they get the 90% chance of happening charge.
Please JNAproductions, don't half-ass things like this when making your arguments.
I second that (Ninja'd). I only did maths for the first half of the fight but this shows how much the additional boyz swing it:
Spoiler:
= 10 marines, 21 boyz
Marines shoot once at 24", hit 6.66 times, wound 3.33 times, kill 2.78 Boys.
= 10 marines , 18.22 boyz
Boys move up 8.5", putting them 15.5" away. They then fire their Assault 2 guns, but only hit on 6s, since they advanced. 6.08 hits, 3.04 wounds, 1.014 dead Marines.
= 8.986 marines, 18.22 boyz
Marines move up 3.5", putting them 12" away, so they can Rapid Fire. 11.98 hits, 5.99 wounds, 4.99 more dead Boys.
= 8.986 marines, 13.23 boyz
Boys move up 5", (7" away) do NOT advance (They can only advance and charge when within 6" of a warboss), fire their Assault 2 weapons, hitting on 5s. 8.81 hits, 4.41 wounds, 1.46 dead marines.
= 7.51 marines, 13.23 boyz
Boys then CHARGE! almost making it ~92% of the time. Marines overwatch, getting 2.51 hits, 1.26 wounds, and 1.04 dead Boys.
= 7.51 marines, 12.19 boyz
Close Combat! Boy will get 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 2 hits per Boy, or 24.39 hits, 12.20 wounds, 4.07 dead Marines.
After first round of CC:
= 3.44 marines, 10.81 boyz
(Note, With previous calculations: End of CC round one. 6.54 Marines are left standing, as compared to 4.83 Boys.)
yup, and this has been true since at least 4th edition Ork boyz in a vacuum will always win.
Or conversely if you have those Marines use their movement to fall back instead of advancing you have the Marines always win, especially now where Orks are slower then SM and you have to factor in that getting 10 Marines with Range 24 guns into range is easier then getting 20 boyz with range 18 guns.
And yet it has not been a problem. In reality, not in pessimism land where you reside, it has not been a problem getting20+ Boyz into CC by turn 2. You have to try real hard not to get a Kopta into CC by turn 2.
They can't fall back if they are surrounded, they also can't shoot or charge unless they have Fly if they fall back.
SemperMortis wrote: especially now where Orks are slower then SM and you have to factor in that getting 10 Marines with Range 24 guns into range is easier then getting 20 boyz with range 18 guns.
move 5 vs 6.... but allowed to run and shoot their weapons, able to charge after running, rerolling charge distances that aren't high enough, access to a spell that can teleport them anywhere on the table provided you adhere to some distance, 2 pont jump packs on the basic troop profile... You were wrong before, and now that games are starting to come out you're just clinging to really silly tidbits of information.
Orks are not slower than space marines, they just move in different ways.
Have the FLG guys taken advantage of the faction keywords during any of the games they've discussed? Are those rankings based on fighting single faction against single faction? I only ask because imperial armies can sacrifice some synergy to take the best tools from a dozen different armies. For example, every imperium army can take wyverns in heavy support and each wyvern can shoot at a different unit and easily make it combat ineffective. They also still have access to all flamer units that do d6 hits a flamer, which doesn't sound like something any unit would like getting hit by.
Having spent a lot of time reading through the indexes there are plenty of solutions to orks. I know all of that is in a vacuum but I just don't see how they are doing competitive play testing and orks are at the top. All of the close combat units that were better than us are still better than us and often just as fast or faster. All of the shooting armies that could vaporize an ork army can still do so.
All that being said, I really hope the initial impressions of the people playing it are correct. My boys will have the global campaign to prove themselves viable. Until it ends I'm going to try to not become overly pessimistic.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
In 7th SM for example only benefitted from cover if the weapon was ap3 or lower.
Now they benefit either way. If the ap is high they still get a +1 bonus if the ap is low they still get the +1 bonus.
In 7th armies like orks or bids benefitted alot from cover.going from no save at all to to 5+/4+
Now they'll get the same treatment as Sm's a flat +1
It maybe more fairly now. But light armoured troops lost an advantage.
You want to think about that a tad, lightly armoured troops had an advantage over heavily armoured troops... Don't see anything wrong with that? Why should the same bush provide to different levels of protection?
Here's a thought, maybe heavier armour should work better than lighter armour, always. It shouldn't be oh, I shoot a tank with a rifle, it bounces, I shoot a man with a vest with a rifle, it kills, I shoot a man with a rifle in a bush, it bounces...
Would rather see cover be a -modifier to hit than to armour save, but can understand why they did it that way.
RedNoak wrote: C'mon U don't need math to understand the new cover system favorable heavily armoured units more then lightly armoured ones...
You mean to tell me that the units that have a points cost applied to them for their better save end up getting better use of the games save mechanic!?
i didnt say the cover system is realistic. i said it favors heaviliy armed troops, which you agreed with. it may make more sense... nonetheless its a nerf for lowarmoured troops... and guess what orks are...
also i had a game yesterday... and i gotta say the new cover mechanics sucks. unless i'm mistaken you dont get any cover for beeing obscured... only for beeing inside a terrain feature. maybe not so hard for small units who can dig in and shoot. but big units who want to cross the board? not so much. where before most of the time i would get a 4+ or atleast a 5+ coversave, now it was like 10% of the time i got the cover bonus which has been negated 50% of the time by the ap.
so please. you can tell me how cool the new cover sytem is how easy it plays and how realistic it is. but dont tell me it didnt hit orks hard.
orkychaos wrote: Have the FLG guys taken advantage of the faction keywords during any of the games they've discussed? Are those rankings based on fighting single faction against single faction? I only ask because imperial armies can sacrifice some synergy to take the best tools from a dozen different armies. For example, every imperium army can take wyverns in heavy support and each wyvern can shoot at a different unit and easily make it combat ineffective. They also still have access to all flamer units that do d6 hits a flamer, which doesn't sound like something any unit would like getting hit by.
Having spent a lot of time reading through the indexes there are plenty of solutions to orks. I know all of that is in a vacuum but I just don't see how they are doing competitive play testing and orks are at the top. All of the close combat units that were better than us are still better than us and often just as fast or faster. All of the shooting armies that could vaporize an ork army can still do so.
All that being said, I really hope the initial impressions of the people playing it are correct. My boys will have the global campaign to prove themselves viable. Until it ends I'm going to try to not become overly pessimistic.
yep, I feel like we are going to see a lot of imperium armies topping the tables because of this... People will take a shooting back line from guard, a fast midfield contingent from say sisters, and some backfield assault drop units from blood angels and wreck face across all ranges of the table. Time will tell.
I was disappointed with the changes to the SAG myself but in the game I'm currently playing, it has zapped 5 terminators by the end of turn 3. Rolled pretty well tbf but still, it's paid for itself. He's also fixed up one of the Mek Guns he's stationed next to and shrugged off some shooting attacks with his 4+. Gitfinda is still much missed.
I feel like they'll probably add some weirdness back to it in the full codex.
Like everyone keeps saying, you really have to get games in before you can judge anything.
Incidentally, Da Jump has SO much more utility now. I never used it much before but in this current game I'm playing, I've ported 20 hidden boys into charge range, as well as zipping the Lobbas (edit. just realised I broke the law there, oops) and SAG away from imminent Terminator assault carnage, (to a position where they can continue to rain fire on them unchallenged). It's just hugely improved in its reliability.
Having had a look over the various bits and bobs doing the rounds, I quite like how things are looking for the Orks, but I do have a few reservations/gripes. Here we go:
Flash gitz: they aren't always Freebooterz; I run, and have modelled, mine as Bad Moon nobz with big kustom weapons. But no <clan> for them. Booo. And ffs why haven't they got their 4+ back, when regular nobz get it?
No 'ardboyz. I get that they seem to have done away with armour upgrades this edition, but why not just make it a separate unit entry? My boyz in snazzy armour I've built by scrimping together bitz from loads of different kits are sad about this.
Seems like you're effectively penalised for having multiple clans in your army. Bit contrary to the whole ethos of trying to encourage people to play to the fluff, this.
Also seems like the list is actively encouraging people to take more than one warboss, which doesn't seem proppa at all.
Despite all that, I'm looking forward to getting hold of my books on Sat, throwing a list together, and getting stuck in. Has anyone seen any indications of suggested Power Levels for small-ish games yet?
Hey, I worked with what math I knew. My math is perfectly fine, it's my assumptions that are wrong. (And my rules-shooting pistols in CC is something I forgot.)
Also seems like the list is actively encouraging people to take more than one warboss, which doesn't seem proppa at all.
Despite all that, I'm looking forward to getting hold of my books on Sat, throwing a list together, and getting stuck in. Has anyone seen any indications of suggested Power Levels for small-ish games yet?
I see it as the Warlord being the main warboss and the others are like sergeants to him. That's why I've got Warlord Blitzgrab and Warboss Snagjaw.
momfreeek wrote: Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Maybe I'm missing something?
You missed a few things.
Burnas are free for them so take the max amount of 2 not only are they decent shooting. They are or best melee weapnsn for boys. Add a big choppa to the nob. Keep them at min 5 man squads. This forces your opponent to over or undercommit shooting on them. They get +2 in cover which is a 4+ save and it works in overwatch. At 5 man squads with a ld7nob you need to take 3 casualties to fail on a 6 on morale roll to lose 1 boy. At 4 casualties you fail on a 5 or 6 but you only have 1 boy left so it you will rarely ever lose more then 1 boy to morale. Add snikrot for more lols with +1 to opponents morale and rerolling 1 in combat. Spam these 5man squads and force your opponent to charge burnas or be charged/shot next turn with a lot of damage. They should also be a big enough distraction so your other boys reach combat.
The deffkopta is a great unit w free bombs but don't take expensive rokkits take the big shoota it's significantly cheaper and allows you to spam more bombs and blades.
If you want to spam rokkits spam tankbustas 5 man units with 2 tankhammers (which are cheaper then rokkits), nob w big choppa (cheaper than rokkits or regular nob w big choppa) and 1 bomb squig. Means you can fit 2 squads in a trukk and take 5 casualties before morale kicks in. You have accurate shooting and cheap fast squads that decimate in melee.
momfreeek wrote: Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Maybe I'm missing something?
You missed a few things.
Burnas are free for them so take the max amount of 2 not only are they decent shooting. They are or best melee weapnsn for boys. Add a big choppa to the nob. Keep them at min 5 man squads. This forces your opponent to over or undercommit shooting on them. They get +2 in cover which is a 4+ save and it works in overwatch. At 5 man squads with a ld7nob you need to take 3 casualties to fail on a 6 on morale roll to lose 1 boy. At 4 casualties you fail on a 5 or 6 but you only have 1 boy left so it you will rarely ever lose more then 1 boy to morale. Add snikrot for more lols with +1 to opponents morale and rerolling 1 in combat.
2 models will let you lose 1 Boy to morale. 2+6=8, 8-7=1.
momfreeek wrote: Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Maybe I'm missing something?
You missed a few things.
Burnas are free for them so take the max amount of 2 not only are they decent shooting. They are or best melee weapnsn for boys. Add a big choppa to the nob. Keep them at min 5 man squads. This forces your opponent to over or undercommit shooting on them. They get +2 in cover which is a 4+ save and it works in overwatch. At 5 man squads with a ld7nob you need to take 3 casualties to fail on a 6 on morale roll to lose 1 boy. At 4 casualties you fail on a 5 or 6 but you only have 1 boy left so it you will rarely ever lose more then 1 boy to morale. Add snikrot for more lols with +1 to opponents morale and rerolling 1 in combat.
but if you are in cover (other than ruins) u'll need to add 2" to your charge range. effectivly making it an 11" charge.
dont get me wrong. kommandoz are in my oppinion one of the best units for orks. but you dont need to sugarcoat it.
and they are a throwaway unit. ecxept them to die in the second round. also they are only good against certain targets. you cant take on full squads, big things or anny CC unit. not if you want them to be MSU.
momfreeek wrote: Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Maybe I'm missing something?
You missed a few things.
Burnas are free for them so take the max amount of 2 not only are they decent shooting. They are or best melee weapnsn for boys. Add a big choppa to the nob. Keep them at min 5 man squads. This forces your opponent to over or undercommit shooting on them. They get +2 in cover which is a 4+ save and it works in overwatch. At 5 man squads with a ld7nob you need to take 3 casualties to fail on a 6 on morale roll to lose 1 boy. At 4 casualties you fail on a 5 or 6 but you only have 1 boy left so it you will rarely ever lose more then 1 boy to morale. Add snikrot for more lols with +1 to opponents morale and rerolling 1 in combat.
but if you are in cover (other than ruins) u'll need to add 2" to your charge range. effectivly making it an 11" charge.
dont get me wrong. kommandoz are in my oppinion one of the best units for orks. but you dont need to sugarcoat it.
and they are a throwaway unit. ecxept them to die in the second round. also they are only good against certain targets. you cant take on full squads, big things or anny CC unit. not if you want them to be MSU.
yup sorry forgot charge in cover however who plays with cover other then ruins. It's hard enough making/buying cover that's not ruins. Things like forest are a pain to play through and craters aren't that common.
As the guy above said I screwed up my math w the morale but it is still usually 1 boy flees.
Tankbustas and cheap deffkoptas are also beast this edition as are trukks for tankbustas or other melee units.
Stormboys are one of the best objective grabbers and independent of warbosses with out the need for them to be close for waagh. Add zagstruk to make any units close by basically fearless and add some beatstick melee.
Orks are good this edition we just have a bit of junk and a lot of stuff that needs to be played a certain way. Like mega nobs are slow as crap and at first I thought just use the jump to get them into range but at 4in movement w the need for s warboss just to get the same movement as last edition you kinda need them in trukks just so they can disembark 3in get a 4in move and then a 2d6 charge.
momfreeek wrote: Kommandos can set up at the end of your movement phase *over* 9" away from any enemy model.
They can charge this turn. They need to get within 1", so they need a 9+. They can reroll their charge roll.
Overwatch doesn't remove models from the front. No movement modifiers for cover.
9+ on 2D6 = 27.8%
9+ on 2D6 with reroll = 47.9%
At 9pt per kommando with free nob, I'd try a coin flip for an infiltration charge.
Maybe I'm missing something?
You missed a few things.
Burnas are free for them so take the max amount of 2 not only are they decent shooting. They are or best melee weapnsn for boys. Add a big choppa to the nob. Keep them at min 5 man squads. This forces your opponent to over or undercommit shooting on them. They get +2 in cover which is a 4+ save and it works in overwatch. At 5 man squads with a ld7nob you need to take 3 casualties to fail on a 6 on morale roll to lose 1 boy. At 4 casualties you fail on a 5 or 6 but you only have 1 boy left so it you will rarely ever lose more then 1 boy to morale. Add snikrot for more lols with +1 to opponents morale and rerolling 1 in combat. Spam these 5man squads and force your opponent to charge burnas or be charged/shot next turn with a lot of damage. They should also be a big enough distraction so your other boys reach combat.
The deffkopta is a great unit w free bombs but don't take expensive rokkits take the big shoota it's significantly cheaper and allows you to spam more bombs and blades.
If you want to spam rokkits spam tankbustas 5 man units with 2 tankhammers (which are cheaper then rokkits), nob w big choppa (cheaper than rokkits or regular nob w big choppa) and 1 bomb squig. Means you can fit 2 squads in a trukk and take 5 casualties before morale kicks in. You have accurate shooting and cheap fast squads that decimate in melee.
Free burnas! That looks like an oversight.
I'm really looking forward to using nobs and flash gits now. Ammo runts taking ablative hits that don't count towards morale is great. I think it'll look great on the table too with all these servile grots following the nobs around. Thats all my grots getting re-tasked.
Nobs w power stabbas are great (toss on a cheap kustom shoota on the nob to use rerolls from ammo runt) and they can make a decent melee unit in a trukk but I feel I can do the same thing better with other choices. Basic boyz or dedicated units that are fairly cheap now. I do love the nob w waaagh banner though as it's cheap enough and helps w morale or assault blobs.
But my point is there is definitely some competitive options for orks although I'm still not sold that it's going to beat the imperial soup and I need to see what forgeworld does.
But ya I'm already planning to spam 20x kommandos, 20x tankbustas in trukks and 15x stormboyz with at least one big 30 boy blob maybe 2 sharing character buffs. Although I'm going to need to spam 2 vanguard detachments to use all those elites.
Tankbustas and cheap deffkoptas are also beast this edition as are trukks for tankbustas or other melee units.
how are deffkoptaz cheap? they cost 55 a piece plus 28 points for the rokkits... thats 83 points per kopta. if you want a killsaw, thats another 28 points so 111 points total.
a trukk is more resilient than before... but so are the transports of all armies. two dedicated antivehilce weapons can still take out a trukk in one volley, not likely but still possible (as it was in 7th)
EDIT:
pointless mathhammer the 3rd
to blow up a trukk in 7th: example vs common eldar weaponary, ie lance, scatter, catapults
heavy: two shots with s8 ap 2 3+ to hit, 3+ to pen, 5+ to blow up 5+ cover save -> 2*2/3*2/3*1/3*2/3 = 16/81 or 19,7% medium: 4 shots s6 no ap 4*2/3*1/2*2/3 = 8/9 or 0,89 hullpoints lost small: 10shots s4 10*2/3*1/6*2/3 = 20/27 or 0,74 HP lost
to detroy a trukk in 8th two shots with s8 ap -2 d6dmg 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 6+ armour, 2x5+ for damage -> 2*2/3*2/3*5/6*1/3 = 20/131 or 29,4% 4shots s6 ap 0 1 dmg 4*2/3*1/2*1/2 = 2/3 or 0,67 wounds small: 10shots s4 10*2/3*1/6*1/2 = 20/36 or 0,56 Wounds
Tankbustas and cheap deffkoptas are also beast this edition as are trukks for tankbustas or other melee units.
how are deffkoptaz cheap?
they cost 55 a piece plus 28 points for the rokkits... thats 83 points per kopta. if you want a killsaw, thats another 28 points so 111 points total.
a trukk is more resilient than before... but so are the transports of all armies. two dedicated antivehilce weapons can still take out a trukk in one volley, not likely but still possible (as it was in 7th)
EDIT:
pointless mathhammer the 3rd
to blow up a trukk in 7th:
example vs common eldar weaponary, ie lance, scatter, catapults
heavy: two shots with s8 ap 2
3+ to hit, 3+ to pen, 5+ to blow up 5+ cover save -> 2*2/3*2/3*1/3*2/3 = 16/81 or 19,7%
medium: 4 shots s6 no ap 4*2/3*1/2*2/3 = 8/9 or 0,89 hullpoints lost
small: 10shots s4
10*2/3*1/6*2/3 = 20/27 or 0,74 HP lost
to detroy a trukk in 8th
two shots with s8 ap -2 d6dmg 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 6+ armour, 2x5+ for damage -> 2*2/3*2/3*5/6*1/3 = 20/131 or 29,4%
4shots s6 ap 0 1 dmg 4*2/3*1/2*1/2 = 2/3 or 0,67 wounds
small: 10shots s4
10*2/3*1/6*1/2 = 20/36 or 0,56 Wounds
Drop the 28pt kopta rokkit and take the 6pt twinbig shoota. Use deffkoptas to drop bombs harass w the big shoota and charge into melee. That's 61pts. You can almost get 2 of them for 1 with a killsaw.
You are looking at the trukk wrong it's NOT suppose to survive in a firefight.
You want the trukk simply to deliver your suicide units into comba range and then charge and actually deal damage which most armies transports can't do in combat so that your suicide unit can get into combat and not take overwatch.
For instance take 2x 5 man squads of tankbustas with 2 rokkits, 2x tankhammers, nob w big choppa and a bomb squig. Both in a trukk with wrecking ball. If the trukk explodes you need to take 5 casualties before you even roll for morale. If it doesn't you disembark 3in forward then move and charge with the trukk hopefully get into combat to block overwatch. Shoot with your 2x rokkits and 1x bomb squig per squad and charge with your 2x 1d3 mortal wounds and 3x str6 ap-1 per squad. If the trukk blows up it can also deal mortal wounds as well. But the point is cheap target overload. Tankbustas are cheaper then basic boys at base. The tankhammers are cheaper than the rokkit, the big choppa is even cheaper. You can fit 2 squads per trukk and spam a lot of tankbustas into your enemy lines. The trukk isn't meant to survive it just needs to deliver your boys into combat and then charge do some damage and die.
A bit sad I still can't have a lad in Mega Armour carrying the Waaagh banner, to match the rest of my warboss' retinue. Sure, there's no model for it but that didn't stop them including painboyz on bikes.
JNAProductions wrote: Hey, I worked with what math I knew. My math is perfectly fine, it's my assumptions that are wrong. (And my rules-shooting pistols in CC is something I forgot.)
Your math is fine except where totally wrong as was proved, and if you cant get a point cost right of an Ork Boy you didn't even make it to the first hurdle you fell over the starting block and your credibility is ruined
JNAProductions wrote: Hey, I worked with what math I knew. My math is perfectly fine, it's my assumptions that are wrong. (And my rules-shooting pistols in CC is something I forgot.)
Your math is fine except where totally wrong as was proved, and if you cant get a point cost right of an Ork Boy you didn't even make it to the first hurdle you fell over the starting block and your credibility is ruined
My assumptions were wrong. My math was fine. I'll freely admit what I wrote ain't useful, because I had the points cost wrong. But don't tell me I'm stupid because I made one mistake.
JNAProductions wrote: Hey, I worked with what math I knew. My math is perfectly fine, it's my assumptions that are wrong. (And my rules-shooting pistols in CC is something I forgot.)
Your math is fine except where totally wrong as was proved, and if you cant get a point cost right of an Ork Boy you didn't even make it to the first hurdle you fell over the starting block and your credibility is ruined
My assumptions were wrong. My math was fine. I'll freely admit what I wrote ain't useful, because I had the points cost wrong. But don't tell me I'm stupid because I made one mistake.
You are looking at the trukk wrong it's NOT suppose to survive in a firefight. You want the trukk simply to deliver your suicide units into comba range and then charge and actually deal damage which most armies transports can't do in combat so that your suicide unit can get into combat and not take overwatch. For instance take 2x 5 man squads of tankbustas with 2 rokkits, 2x tankhammers, nob w big choppa and a bomb squig. Both in a trukk with wrecking ball. If the trukk explodes you need to take 5 casualties before you even roll for morale. If it doesn't you disembark 3in forward then move and charge with the trukk hopefully get into combat to block overwatch. Shoot with your 2x rokkits and 1x bomb squig per squad and charge with your 2x 1d3 mortal wounds and 3x str6 ap-1 per squad. If the trukk blows up it can also deal mortal wounds as well. But the point is cheap target overload.[u] Tankbustas are cheaper then basic boys at base. The tankhammers are cheaper than the rokkit, the big choppa is even cheaper. You can fit 2 squads per trukk and spam a lot of tankbustas into your enemy lines. The trukk isn't meant to survive it just needs to deliver your boys into combat and then charge do some damage and die.
that unit costs 281 points by the way... really pricy for a throwaway unit... and for what? couple 5+ to hit shots, ONE TIME 2xd3 mortal wounds and six big choppa attacks??? oh and the mighty wrecking ball with 3 str 6 attacks that hit on 5+...
sorry mate nearly 300 points for this is huge gak.
tankbustaz are there because they can hunt tanks with their rokkits. no other unit can bring as much rokkity power than bustaz. their biggest buff is the reroll to hit... giving em a tankhammer (which was a joke before and is even more now... what happened? orks got so stupid they forgot to put the bomb on a stick? instead they now just allah akbahr themselves while hitting you with a bomb in the hand????)
also as i said earlier a trukk has gotten alot slower. its now 12" +d6" as before it was 12"+12" not so good for delivering units into CC. the save bet is to have them zip around and shoot from the trukk. i ran a trukk with 5 lootaz and 5 tankbustaz yesterday. not bad but not amazing either.
but please stop telling me how good ork AV units are. i made a list before comparing the AV units of several armies and their price increase from 7th to 8th. orks took the biggest hit. yes tankbustaz got a boost as they are essentially twinlinked now and a rokkit does 3 dmg. but so did all the other armies AV units.. just at a lower cost.
Drop the 28pt kopta rokkit and take the 6pt twinbig shoota. Use deffkoptas to drop bombs harass w the big shoota and charge into melee. That's 61pts. You can almost get 2 of them for 1 with a killsaw.
this on the other hand is good news... didnt see the shoota option on em.
EDIT: the twin shoota is 14 points not 6. but they could take KmB for 9. clocking in at a total of 64 points... not bad for one time mortal wound drop on 5's. but not amazing either
So for a Big Mek in Mega Armour it says it is equipt with a Kustom Mega Blaster and a Power Klaw, but can exchange its Kustom Mega Blasta with a Shooty Weapon or a Killsaw.
Does that mean we can't get a Big Mek with double killsaws for the +1 attack?
Also, completely unrelated, if you inflict multiple wounds with a weapon that does D3 or D6 damage on a unit with multiple multi-wound models, do you need to roll the damage dice one by one since the damage doesn't spill over?
tilds wrote: So for a Big Mek in Mega Armour it says it is equipt with a Kustom Mega Blaster and a Power Klaw, but can exchange its Kustom Mega Blasta with a Shooty Weapon or a Killsaw.
Does that mean we can't get a Big Mek with double killsaws for the +1 attack?
Also, completely unrelated, if you inflict multiple wounds with a weapon that does D3 or D6 damage on a unit with multiple multi-wound models, do you need to roll the damage dice one by one since the damage doesn't spill over?
tilds wrote: So for a Big Mek in Mega Armour it says it is equipt with a Kustom Mega Blaster and a Power Klaw, but can exchange its Kustom Mega Blasta with a Shooty Weapon or a Killsaw.
Does that mean we can't get a Big Mek with double killsaws for the +1 attack?
Also, completely unrelated, if you inflict multiple wounds with a weapon that does D3 or D6 damage on a unit with multiple multi-wound models, do you need to roll the damage dice one by one since the damage doesn't spill over?
you don't get +1 attacks now for having 2 CC weapons. Also if you inflict multiple wounds with a multi damage weapon you can roll all the D3s or D6s together and just dish them out to kill models individually but as you mentioned they don't spill over to other models.
So if you roll 3 wounds that do D6 damage and your targeting a unit filled with 3wound models then you roll all 3 dice and use them to kill models one by one until you run out of dice.
Seems like no double kill saws, I was disappointed that the Warboss in Mega Armor cannot take them at all. Given that there is no rule for extra attacks with 2 power klaws, his options are various shooting weapons, or a big choppa. Seems like very limited options to me.
Yes you roll damage dice 1 at a time. SO it would be
1.Roll to hit
2.roll to wound
3.roll saves
4.allocate first unsaved wound
5. Roll damage
6.) Repeat 4 and 5
tilds wrote: So for a Big Mek in Mega Armour it says it is equipt with a Kustom Mega Blaster and a Power Klaw, but can exchange its Kustom Mega Blasta with a Shooty Weapon or a Killsaw.
Does that mean we can't get a Big Mek with double killsaws for the +1 attack?
Also, completely unrelated, if you inflict multiple wounds with a weapon that does D3 or D6 damage on a unit with multiple multi-wound models, do you need to roll the damage dice one by one since the damage doesn't spill over?
you don't get +1 attacks now for having 2 CC weapons. Also if you inflict multiple wounds with a multi damage weapon you can roll all the D3s or D6s together and just dish them out to kill models individually but as you mentioned they don't spill over to other models.
So if you roll 3 wounds that do D6 damage and your targeting a unit filled with 3wound models then you roll all 3 dice and use them to kill models one by one until you run out of dice.
The kill saw specifically says you get +1 attack for having 2 in the mega nob entry.
And no you cannot roll damage dice first and then allocate, that makes a huge difference. If you have a unit of 3 wound models and roll 1, 3, 2 for damage, it matters the order of damage because if you allocate a wound roll a 1, then allocate to the same model and roll a 3 you lose a wound of damage, then roll a 2 on the last damage you kill only 1 model. If you roll all 3 then allocate you put 3 damage on 2 separate models and kill 2 models.
es you roll damage dice 1 at a time. SO it would be
1.Roll to hit
2.roll to wound
3.roll saves
4.allocate first unsaved wound
5. Roll damage
6.) Repeat 4 and 5
And no you cannot roll damage dice first and then allocate, that makes a huge difference. If you have a unit of 3 wound models and roll 1, 3, 2 for damage, it matters the order of damage because if you allocate a wound roll a 1, then allocate to the same model and roll a 3 you lose a wound of damage, then roll a 2 on the last damage you kill only 1 model. If you roll all 3 then allocate you put 3 damage on 2 separate models and kill 2 models.
Let's recreate for clarity:
1. Roll to hit, you hit x times.
2. Roll to wound, you wound 3 times.
3. Wounds have to be allocated before they can be saved, (this being out of order is where the confusion lies)
4. Wound 1, fail save, roll damage, does 1 damage, wound, whatever... (it is called damage, but you remove wound, really clunky wording really)
5. Wound 2, fail save, roll damage, does 3 damage, wound, whatever, rules state that any previously damaged model MUST be allocated any further wounds first in an unit. So remove model that took previous damage, lose one point of damage.
6. Wound 3, fail save, roll damage, does 2 damage, wound, whatever, unit now has 1 model at 1 wound left, 1 model at 3 wounds.
In short, Saves are made against Wounds, unsaved Wounds cause Damage. So get hit by something that does 6 Damage, you only get to make ONE Save, if you fail, you take 6 Damage. You do not get to make 6 Saves for each point of Damage caused. Hit are not Wounds, Wounds are not Damage...
So the battlewagon has Mobile Fortress which allows it to ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
It is also Open topped which says, among other things, that any restrictions and modifiers which applies to the battlewagon also applies to the embarked units.
Does that mean it can drive around with a squad of Flash GItz that are shooting at BS 4+ ?
tilds wrote: So the battlewagon has Mobile Fortress which allows it to ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
It is also Open topped which says, among other things, that any restrictions and modifiers which applies to the battlewagon also applies to the embarked units.
Does that mean it can drive around with a squad of Flash GItz that are shooting at BS 4+ ?
that is correct! and you can even get ammo runts to work too for rerolls
tilds wrote: So the battlewagon has Mobile Fortress which allows it to ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
It is also Open topped which says, among other things, that any restrictions and modifiers which applies to the battlewagon also applies to the embarked units.
Does that mean it can drive around with a squad of Flash GItz that are shooting at BS 4+ ?
that is correct! and you can even get ammo runts to work too for rerolls
Yes, but they will count towards the transport capacity right?
tilds wrote: So the battlewagon has Mobile Fortress which allows it to ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
It is also Open topped which says, among other things, that any restrictions and modifiers which applies to the battlewagon also applies to the embarked units.
Does that mean it can drive around with a squad of Flash GItz that are shooting at BS 4+ ?
that is correct! and you can even get ammo runts to work too for rerolls
Yes, but they will count towards the transport capacity right?
Yeah, ammo runts and etc count towards the troop cap, but they also count as wounds, which means they die first. I say fill a battlewagon with lootas and tankbustas and shoot the crap out of whatever needs to be shot. Honestly I predict that battlewagons are going to become mobile cover for our shooty units.
in my eyes.
