Most of you are probably familiar with most of the armies at this point.
GW has sent indices to the FLGSs and GW shops for people to preview them.
So we all should have a decent idea of what the new rules look like, including what the power levels of the armies are.
What are your opinions on power levels?
Tyrannids strike me as the new top-tier army. They're insanely fast, hit like bricks, have excellent shooting, and have excellent army synergy. Taken together, the other armies don't seem as good.
I actually think there is a really good balance between that armies at the moment.
Tyranids do seem really good.. but at the same time they are what I have focused on the most so far... But they do seem to be one of the more variable lists
I think a big thing is that there has been a lot of change on what is good and not with the other races, so while there is a lot of balance between the armies.. it is a case a lot of people will need to change up what they own for these armies
GodDamUser wrote: I actually think there is a really good balance between that armies at the moment.
Tyranids do seem really good.. but at the same time they are what I have focused on the most so far... But they do seem to be one of the more variable lists
I think a big thing is that there has been a lot of change on what is good and not with the other races, so while there is a lot of balance between the armies.. it is a case a lot of people will need to change up what they own for these armies
My impression is that they are too fast.
They can be across the table as early as turn 1.
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
I'm not really sure I can evaluate Tyranids well enough without seeing them play. I am pretty confident that Imperial Guard are absurdly good now, especially since they have access to all the other Imperial factions and can take Assassins. I suspect they beat Tyranids because they can easily screen the first turn assault and they can lay down just a ridiculous amount of fire on the big monsters. Ultimately a single Conscripts unit is going to suffice to make the rest of your army un-assaultable for a whole turn, and possibly more than that.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm not really sure I can evaluate Tyranids well enough without seeing them play. I am pretty confident that Imperial Guard are absurdly good now, especially since they have access to all the other Imperial factions and can take Assassins. I suspect they beat Tyranids because they can easily screen the first turn assault and they can lay down just a ridiculous amount of fire on the big monsters.
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially. Tanks are now more susceptible to anti-tank guns like MLs and lascannons. Their firepower has been toned down quite a bit. And now you don't get the advantage of cover 9 times out of 10.
And I'm not sure, but I think that you might actually be able to put fewer models on the field at the 2000 points level.
I have significant doubts that an IG list would have an even chance against a tyrranids list.
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
Everyone can get across the table T1, especially you can now DS from T1 and charge from DS
Tyranids 'speed' isn't that much faster then other races.. pretty sure on average the Eldar are faster with the Majoritty of Craft World having a 7" move and a lot of Dark Eldar having 8"
Maybe you should have a proper read of all the races before jumping to conclusions about Tyranids
I've seen marine books and chaos mostly.
Seems characters got dialed up. New wound mechanic, rules plus general buffs mean the two classics have some pretty potant HQ options.
Used right with right synergy, some could be pretty deveststing when let used for intended purpose.
Emparoes champion for example is a character killing blender.
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
Everyone can get across the table T1, especially you can now DS from T1 and charge from DS
Tyranids 'speed' isn't that much faster then other races.. pretty sure on average the Eldar are faster with the Majoritty of Craft World having a 7" move and a lot of Dark Eldar having 8"
Maybe you should have a proper read of all the races before jumping to conclusions about Tyranids
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote:Seems characters got dialed up.
Captains and chapter masters got significant buffs. The fact that their AoE's self-apply is a huge bonus.
Chaplains are underwhelming, as before, but at least they're cheaper!
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
So your entire basis for Tyranids being too fast is on a single 300pt character and his ability to buff 1 unit a turn.. so that unit can pull off 1 charge 'guaranteed' (based on your opponents ability to deploy, as he can only buff a unit within 6") first turn..
In a game where you are no longer 'locked' into combat
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially. Tanks are now more susceptible to anti-tank guns like MLs and lascannons. Their firepower has been toned down quite a bit. And now you don't get the advantage of cover 9 times out of 10.
And I'm not sure, but I think that you might actually be able to put fewer models on the field at the 2000 points level.
I have significant doubts that an IG list would have an even chance against a tyrranids list.
Things have changed, yeah. I wouldn't expect to see tanks. A Taurox Prime is 98 points and if it can sit and let the Tyranids come to it it expects to kill 13 gaunts or 8 genestealers in a single volley. A Scion plasma squad and Tempestor Prime are something like 165 points and they can appear anywhere and take something like 5 wounds off of a T6 or T7 3+ monster. If you can't deal with the squad very quickly it'll do it again next turn even if you tie it up in combat. I already mentioned Conscripts which seem fantastic as a screener and entirely prevent a first turn charge, pretty much. Culexus and Eversor Assassins can hold their own against pretty much anything for cost, and the Culexus gets even better around psyker Tyranids. A mortar heavy weapon squad is 27 points and expects to land 5.25 bolter hits on anything it wants inside 48" every turn. You would need double that many points in Marines to have the same effect inside rapid fire range.
I don't know. I haven't played against a list that just takes a lot of IG good stuff. But I'm having an extremely hard time even trying to tailor something that clearly beats it. Probably just tons of very big things and almost no small things. I can at least see how you go about answering the scary stuff Tyranids have now.
BrianDavion wrote: yeah one thing worth noting, seriously, is that Imperial armies are really going to be a lot more varied now,
I doubt it, it'll still mostly be Marines. But at least Guard and Sisters are going to be considerably less weak than they were before-- though I still doubt either will be anywhere close to top tier. As for Inquisition... eh... it's Inquisition. It never really was an "army", but they'll probably make decent editions along with the various freakshow units across the Imperial lists, or in addition to stormtroopers from the IG list.
Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.
niv-mizzet wrote: Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I'm looking forwards to Nids being turbo killing machines.
Different meta sounds fun.
That's pretty much what they are. The little bugs are super fast and are cheap enough to swarm the opponent and catch units in close combat early. And the big bugs are unstoppable forces of death, destruction and mayhem.
One thing that I like about 8th is that the armies basically feel about right.
Marines feel like marines.
Anti-tank guns feel like anti-tank guns.
IG feel like IG.
I am really liking what I am seeing of 8th.
I just fear that tyrranids might be a little too good.
So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.
Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
DG are... not amazing.
Spoiler:
Plague marines are fine overall, but I fell they are a bit expensive currently. The toughness boost honestly lost a lot of mileage now that str 3 will still wound on a 5+, arguably rubrics are tougher and shootier out of the box (the sorcerer tax is what hurt rubrics tbh). The special weapons are nice but increase the cost even more. Blight Launchers are great and one of the few ways the unit might actually kill enough to justify its cost. They also aren't that good in melee now, losing bolt pistols hurt and plague knives are decidedly mediocre. They just seem a bit expensive for what they offer.
The bloat drone is one of the most worthless units in the game. It's a slower immolator without transport capacity, with a bad melee attack and %+ fnp. For 55 points more, meaning three immolators for the same price as two bloat drones. It's a hilariously useless unit, that's overcosted by an absurd degree. It's more durable, but not that much more durable. It can handle being caught in melee a bit better as it gets the free disengage for flying. so there is that. Honestly though, it's a stand alone unit that can barely do it's own job better thana dedicated transport goes it, at 2/3rd the point cost mind you. It's a joke unit that should be treated with the contempt once reserved for the now potentially useful pyrovore (who can also do the same thing but better thanks to tyrannocytes. If you could save 30 points by not buying the utterly worthless melee weapon it might be worth taking, so if the actual kit comes with options not present in the starter set/index it could be decent, but for now laughable.
Poxwalkers are not my favorite, but the at least fill a role. Slower slightly more expensive cultists without guns, but far tougher, fearless and about as good in melee. Blightbringer is a way to increase the speed of a footslogging army, marginally. Good with the above poxwalkers and footslogging plague marines (particularly with assault weapons). Typhus also helps poxwalkers, so grab him, a blight bringer, a few units of max size poxwalkers and march up the field, zombie horde style.
The new Lord isn't bad, but typhus is better points wise (I'm thinking some of the monoload units from the starter set accidentally had their gear's point costs included, as that'd go a long way towards explaining this and the bloat drone's cost). The new psyker is actually pretty decent, thanks to DR being able to block mortal wounds.
In short, plague marines are okay but a bit expensive while the new blight launcher is one of the better special weapons this edition. It also costs a single point more than a plasma gun, being relatively cheap for the amount of damage it can do. Poxwalkers are good and get a lot of synergy, all the new IC are pretty good, even the lord though he is a bit expensive. The bloat drone is hilariously, mind numbingly awful and should be treated with the utmost contempt. Nothing about it justifies its point cost.
So... yeah. Nothing amazing, the only real stand out are the poxwalkers.
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
So your entire basis for Tyranids being too fast is on a single 300pt character and his ability to buff 1 unit a turn.. so that unit can pull off 1 charge 'guaranteed' (based on your opponents ability to deploy, as he can only buff a unit within 6") first turn..
In a game where you are no longer 'locked' into combat
Worth mentioning that Chaos Marines can do the same thing with a Jump Pack/Terminator Sorcerer and any of their deep strike units.
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
I was impressed by Noise Marines. It seems like GW did a really good job of making them good and flavorful, but not OP.
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
I was impressed by Noise Marines. It seems like GW did a really good job of making them good and flavorful, but not OP.
DG are... not amazing.
Good to know. I have an associate who plays DG.
Noise marines are arguably the best infantry for their points in the game currently. Sonic blasters are just amazing for their price, noise marines are still nasty in close combat. With sonic blaster, they put out the same/more damage than a primaris marine will, more if the enemy is in cover/not in RF range. They can also grab special/heavy weapons unlike primaris, combining the strong infantry shooting with anti tank options as well. They aren't as tough they still have that nifty shooting attack on death rule to get more mileage out of every model. They are far better than chosen tbh, being cheaper to start with despite the same basic statline and better options.
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are arguably the best infantry for their points in the game currently.
I'm unwilling to go that far.
Noise marines are still 16 ppm base, 20 with the sonic blasters. Blast masters and doom sirens are good, but also very expensive.
That's what I mean by flavorful and good, but still more or less balanced.
Noise marines with sonic blasters vs. sternguard with special issue boltguns is a pretty close call, imho.
Sonic blasters are just amazing for their price
They don't have a rend value. I think that sonic blasters are good, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them "amazing."
At the end of the day, it's 3 S4 shots with no rend value.
You forget, ignores cover is often going to amount to a -1 rend Also, they tend to win over sternguard everywhere but rapid fire range with no cover, and the noise marines don't make it into close combat (where they would again have the upper hand). Even in rapid fire range they don't lose badly, close enough both squads may be wiped due to the noise marine ability.. Don't forget the blastmaster is a buffed missile launcher that also ignores cover and has an assault more for a measly three points over a normal missile launcher, so fully equipped squads actually shifts things slightly further in the noise marine's favor..
it's not like they stomp the sternguard into the ground (you still lose 60%-80% of the squad). But it is a slight and notable advantage. A squad of 5 with 4 sonic blasters and a blastmaster is pretty consistently coming out atm. If I find something better I'll use them as the bench mark though.
Actually, with how difficult is to had cover in 8th, unless you are playing in a table with a good amount of cover and terrain (Like mine ) the "Ignore cover" rules aren't that important as 7th edition.
I'm betting that army tiers are going to be really hard to pin down, because comp matters much more. If I bring a monolith to your lascannon party it's going to be a bad day for the monolith regardless of the monolith being a very solid unit. With everything having a counter and every army having access to every counter, comp trumps faction.
Certain factions may be better or worse at certain comps, and that will make certain factions better against other factions. However we won't have a 7th ed apex predator style list where it can reasonably expect to beat any army it comes across.
Where I do expect their to be tiers is for certain functions, EG: devastators are trash tier at vehicle removal. That just a made up example though, I have no idea how any of the vehicle removal units compare to each other, yet. I expect role based tier lists to gel much earlier than army based tier lists.
Grimgold wrote: Where I do expect their to be tiers is for certain functions, EG: devastators are trash tier at vehicle removal. That just a made up example though, I have no idea how any of the vehicle removal units compare to each other, yet. I expect role based tier lists to gel much earlier than army based tier lists.
Infantry are the most cost effective way to get heavy weapons onto the field, but also the easiest to remove from the field. If I had to guess, mid range vehicles that can take numerous guns will be the general preference for heavy weaponry.
Of course that's me assuming lascannons and other heavy weapons are the best way to remove vehicles.
The only real problem with power as far as I can see is that some armies have access to units that can pick off charcters easily. While others have plenty of access to such items. This dosen't sound like much, but some armies are almost unpenetrable unless you kill off some charcters.
Sisters so far are make or break based on how the FAQ turns out. If they can use AoFs on vehicles they'll be absolutely amazing, probably still not top tier but definitely super powerful. If not then they'll still be okay, they just won't get any benefit from their army rules. (6++ only good for vehicles/low save models, deny on 1 dice will be so rare people won't even remember it, AoFs will almost never have a good target turn 1-2, character buffs are generally very weak.)
It seems really odd to me that they'd design an army so that everything buffs infantry, but only the vehicles are ever worth taking.
I think that any army that has access to large masses of average infantry (cheap masses) will have the upper hand; also midstrenght weapons spam, be it melee or ranged seems to give an advantage. This puts Tyranids (they are also FAST) and Imperial Guard (how many plasmaguns can you bring at 2000 pts? how many infantry squads? Answer: too many.) as my personal top dogs.
masses allow for wounds out of sheer statistic, dominate the objective games, dictates movement and deepstrikes, absorb enemy firepower...midstrenght weapons at worst wound on 5+, and en masse can ruin anything.
4 squads of guard with a plasmagun each roghly cost like a decent firebase tank. Guess who is better (at everything)?
Darkagl1 wrote: So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.
Mostly the same general impressions I had. The Blood Angels section is quite terrible actually and seems like they were really asleep at the wheel with them. A few things of note:
The (AV-13 CC monster) Furioso Dreadnought is now the weakest of the 'elite-ish' dreadnoughts, the DC dread is only just slightly better but still doesn't stack up to say Murderfang etc. Further, without drop-pods short-ranged (frag cannon) and CC dreadnoughts are entirely unusable.
Then the dreadnoughts 'blood talons' ...why would you pay more for MUCH worse item? Too bad every BA player already modeled their dreads this way.
The Sanguinary Guard are crazy expensive once you add the wargear, but why would you EVER take Angelus Bolter (not pistol) when you can get a Plasma Pistol for cheaper that is MUCH better? Too bad every BA player already modeled their SG this way.
Dante is decent - but still easily the worst Chapter Master in the book. The Blood Angels "unique" pistols are both now mediocre (Inferno Pistol) and overpriced, or totally useless (Hand Flamer).
The DC are more expensive than Khorne Berzerkers but are FAR worse.
Finally the army Synergies are built around character bubbles - cool right!?! - except it's the lamest fluff/model characters like Astorath, Sanguinor and Mephiston.
Darkagl1 wrote: So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.
Mostly the same general impressions I had. The Blood Angels section is quite terrible actually and seems like they were really asleep at the wheel with them. A few things of note:
The (AV-13 CC monster) Furioso Dreadnought is now the weakest of the 'elite-ish' dreadnoughts, the DC dread is only just slightly better but still doesn't stack up to say Murderfang etc. Further, without drop-pods short-ranged (frag cannon) and CC dreadnoughts are entirely unusable.
Then the dreadnoughts 'blood talons' ...why would you pay more for MUCH worse item? Too bad every BA player already modeled their dreads this way.
The Sanguinary Guard are crazy expensive once you add the wargear, but why would you EVER take Angelus Bolter (not pistol) when you can get a Plasma Pistol for cheaper that is MUCH better? Too bad every BA player already modeled their SG this way.
Dante is decent - but still easily the worst Chapter Master in the book. The Blood Angels "unique" pistols are both now mediocre (Inferno Pistol) and overpriced, or totally useless (Hand Flamer).
The DC are more expensive than Khorne Berzerkers but are FAR worse.
Finally the army Synergies are built around character bubbles - cool right!?! - except it's the lamest fluff/model characters like Astorath, Sanguinor and Mephiston.
Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.
Baal Preds are super good.
Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.
It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.
Conscripts for IG are the way to go really, that and deep striking scions suicides. Regular Guardsman, Vets, PCS (unless suicide melta/ plasma), tanks, are just meh or bad. Turn 1 Deletion of 4 out 5 squads is a possible reality, especially with Tyranids.
Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.
Baal Preds are super good.
Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.
It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.
I don't think that's at all realistic regarding the dreadnoughts. You assume the enemy is unmoving and waiting to be assailed by your slow moving dreads. Regardless please explain what happened with Blood Talons and why you would ever take them?
Baal Preds are good, but not nearly as good as regular predators (which are now a must-take unit).
I'll give you that the DC are certainly more mobile and thus have additional utility, but I don't believe they are costed right at all. Once you add gear and jump packs they are crazy expensive.
Same with Sanguinary Guard, once you add wargear they are REALLY expensive, and again -- why take the stock Angelus Bolter when you can now take a Plasma Pistol that is better and cheaper and can even shoot within 1"?? ...these are a head scratchers I am mostly wondering about... and the Infernus Pistol is overcosted and mediocre, while the Hand Flamer is just not worth taking at all now. There are just things that don't make sense, and make it seem like they got really lazy when it came to BA.
And again... the Synergy lists are built are the lamest BA characters, oh well some people might not care about this.
Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.
I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.
The Blood Angels also lost their old "Chapter tactics", I realize they weren't called that - And their FAST rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators etc etc... but all of that I am totally fine losing for the sake of balance and simplicity...
It's the stuff I listed prior that just doesn't make any sense, some real head scratchers in that list.
Luciferian wrote: Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.
I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.
DA terminators are alot cheaper then before as well.
Big winners of this edition to me are the 3 horde armies; guard, tyranids, and orks. All have cheap and numerous firepower and assault options and can fill out org charts easily for command point spam.
Eldar, tau, and necrons still bully elite armies (read MEQ armies) due to specializing better at speed, firepower, and durability respectfully. All three will have a hard time against the horde armies above.
Marines are the best middle of the road army not being better or worse at anything. Chaos marines are in a similar situation for now. That lack of specialty can hurt in this ruleset if not played well.
Ad mech seems like a loser mostly due to an incomplete army list.
Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.
Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BAs look like they got hit with the Nerf stick. Dante is OK but overcosted/underpowered compared to many other Chapter masters. DC got nerfed a lot and Sanguinary Guard got jacked up in price. Our short-ranged Dreads suffer from losing access to Pods. We can use the "Adeptus Astartes" keyword to give us access to vanilla SM toys now but frankly it is more like playing Red Marines than Blood Angels.
Space Wolves have not done too badly. Blood Claws can now hit much better and get plenty of attacks. Grey Hunters are also pretty good as they cost 1 point more but can take a free Chainsword for an extra attack in CC. TWC are not quite so Death Starry but are still good and can now be followed by a Wolf Priest on a bike to top-up lost wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eldar look like they will be going back to Serpent Spam armies as the Wave Serpent now has more firepower and the energy shield is pretty decent.
Jetbikes and Wraithknights have received a whacking with the nerf bat which was probably needed. Sadly I think thye overdid it with the WK as it is now more expensive than an Imperial Knight and actually worse in most respects for a comparable loadout.
Sadly Dire Avengers have suffered a massive and unjustified price hike. At 17 points they now cost 4 points more than Marines despite having -1S -1T, 1 worse armour and 6" shorter range. I have absolutely no idea why the Dire Catapult has been costed at 7 points when most other basic guns are 0 points. :(
Traditio wrote: Most of you are probably familiar with most of the armies at this point.
Actually, no. The FLGS I frequent is keeping their pre-release copy under wraps until sometime next week. The "local" GW store is about an hour away and in a sketchy part of the city, so I don't go there. Anything I've seen about 8th has come from the official Warhammer Community Page, or the bad, scanned or blurry picture of others taken of the new rules and Indexes.
GW has sent indices to the FLGSs and GW shops for people to preview them.
Yes, and no. Yes, it has happened. No, not all FLGS's immediately made them available for people to look at. My LGS said they were given a display date of June 9th, and they are sticking to it.
So we all should have a decent idea of what the new rules look like, including what the power levels of the armies are.
Not even close. Until I have the books in hand and pour over them for a week plus, AND have several games under my belt, THEN I MIGHT be able to make some semi-speculative guesses about what is good, and what isn't. Until then, it's all opinion, speculation, and uninformed gak
What are your opinions on power levels?
They are all gak, that shift and change depending on what the latest codex that was released, or who won some tournament somewhere. Local meta's have far more influence on this than people realize.
If you are referring to the alternate method of force selection, I have no idea, and won't until I have the full rules in hand, have read them, and played some games.
Tyrannids strike me as the new top-tier army. They're insanely fast, hit like bricks, have excellent shooting, and have excellent army synergy. Taken together, the other armies don't seem as good.
Haven't seen their rules, so have no opinion on how "good" they may be. Based on my experience with 40K since Rogue Trader, and especially after 3rd edition, which is the closest analogous release to 8th, is that as soon as the first codex is released (rumored to be Codex: Space Marines), all the other armies will fall far, far below the Space Marines in performance. The next codex after that will be on par with the Space Marines, or even a little better, and the other armies will fall even farther behind. Three years from now, there will still be an army waiting for an update that will never come, and then 9th edition will be announced...
Right now, there might be a couple people that have managed to get the sneak peak stuff and read it, but for everyone else, it's been rumors, blurry photo's, bad scans, and rampant speculation. Maybe repost this thread in late July after everyone has had a chance to read the rules and play some games.
Uhh "blurry photo's, bad scans" ...actually the stuff that's being going around the internet for like a week now has been very legible - full rules leaks at that.
Necrons translated fairly well to 8th ed, both of our main gimmicks (RP and Gauss) are changed but still fairly potent. Our lack of weapon variety is a bit of a drag, we can't sneak heavy weapons onto the field in our troop choices like marines, so we have to be very conscious of that lack when building lists. Our melee feels a little weaker, mostly because they didn't change much while so many other melee units got buffed.
I haven't spent as much time on other armies, but necrons seem in line with my dark angels. DA are a bit better at taking out units with high toughness, but the necrons are head and shoulders better at taking out MEQ. I haven't felt out matched in any of my games yet, but none of them were cakewalks ethier.
Bad match ups
Only one really, I'm a little nervous about facing tyranids, our melee isn't what it used to be, and the big bugs are going to be a pain in the rear to kill. I won't be able to contest their board presence because I'll be running form their blobs. My tentative plan is to grind them for a few turns while keeping my range, and then hopefully close into a short range fire fight where necrons excel. Not a great plan sadly given how fast tyranids are.
Good match ups
Any MEQ will have an uphill fight against Crons, the amount of AP shots we can throw out is silly, and we are tougher than they are. My plan with them is simple, be aggressive, bring the fight to them as quickly as possible, hit them off of objectives, and basically bully them.
Traditio wrote: My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.
IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.
For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.
GKs are in a strange place. You technically want to put the cheapest units on the board to get the most casts of smite.
In the case of fighting horde armies. You want to use your stormravens to stay in the air as long as possible, doing as much damage to your opponent as possible. You want to use your NDK to target whatever vehicle/monster can take down your stormravens.
buddha wrote: Big winners of this edition to me are the 3 horde armies; guard, tyranids, and orks. All have cheap and numerous firepower and assault options and can fill out org charts easily for command point spam.
Eldar, tau, and necrons still bully elite armies (read MEQ armies) due to specializing better at speed, firepower, and durability respectfully. All three will have a hard time against the horde armies above.
Marines are the best middle of the road army not being better or worse at anything. Chaos marines are in a similar situation for now. That lack of specialty can hurt in this ruleset if not played well.
Ad mech seems like a loser mostly due to an incomplete army list.
Guard didn't win much at all. Their tanks are near to worthless for cost, save for the Punisher. Regular Guard squads can't blob and can get deleted quicker that you can say "Bye". Vets are overpriced units for what Scions can do and with deep striking. They just do it better, but which can be easily countered by melee hordes. PCS is just a suicide squad.
Conscripts and Scions are the big winners, along with the Taurox Prime, Mortar and other Artillery. Flamers are a possible go to for defense and attack. Orders being instant was good as well. Ratlings also may be viable.
However, all this matter little for the possibilty of turn 1 deletion. Melee on turn 1 against Orks or Tyranids.... you can only get so much survival from conscripts after the commissar goes.
on tyranids. they are quite powerful one of our club players runs them and boy did they get a well needed boost. that said they are not invincible and you need to keep units separated so they cannot assault and pile into a new combat. Tyranids are much more powerful on a 4x4 board than a 6x4 same for orks. the solution is having fast units splitting them up. have a 12 inch move tank? zip it up full movement empty sand all vehicles and unit so the same. stay at your back board edge with some units and clump models so they are maximum distance apart. if the tyranids or orks get in combat move other units away even if they might not win the next turn so they have to move and charge again where you could be out of range or force a choice attack one unit not but then that unit will get away 2 more turns.
on blood angels. our blood angels player is having a blast. their blender dreds (what i will always call them) are super threatening and fast. in kill points games a lot of blood angels stuff is not super great but for objective games they get where they need to be and are threatening enough that players have to stay away.
sanguinary guard i have not seen yet but will be bringing them on myself in a few days love the models have 25 with dante
Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.
Baal Preds are super good.
Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.
It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.
I don't think that's at all realistic regarding the dreadnoughts. You assume the enemy is unmoving and waiting to be assailed by your slow moving dreads. Regardless please explain what happened with Blood Talons and why you would ever take them?
Baal Preds are good, but not nearly as good as regular predators (which are now a must-take unit).
I'll give you that the DC are certainly more mobile and thus have additional utility, but I don't believe they are costed right at all. Once you add gear and jump packs they are crazy expensive.
Same with Sanguinary Guard, once you add wargear they are REALLY expensive, and again -- why take the stock Angelus Bolter when you can now take a Plasma Pistol that is better and cheaper and can even shoot within 1"?? ...these are a head scratchers I am mostly wondering about... and the Infernus Pistol is overcosted and mediocre, while the Hand Flamer is just not worth taking at all now. There are just things that don't make sense, and make it seem like they got really lazy when it came to BA.
And again... the Synergy lists are built are the lamest BA characters, oh well some people might not care about this.
When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.
Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.
DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.
Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.
Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.
The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.
It is not just BA though where there are no duh options
Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.
Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.
quote]
You also need to buy a squad in order to take them, so they don't end up cheaper unless you already wanted that squad. They are also slower.
BA aren't that bad. Maybe some of the other chapters are a little better, but I don't know.
Jump packs are great in 8th ed I think. We can put jump packs on our command squads, which puts deep striking melta back on the table.
Frag cannons are not useless, they aren't just point and click. In fact, even if deep striking were not limited to > 9", the 100 pt price tag on pods would make be balk anyway. Frag dreads can ride Stormravens, or act as a screening unit and the be sheriff against opposing deep strikers.
DC are pointed fine, especially when you consider they don't need a transport. Yes, they are weaker than berzerkers, but they are much faster and again don't rely on a transport.
Maybe some units will have to be recosted, but so far, I'm thinking 8th is a win for BA, especially against Eldar and Tau.
After a couple of games with my Tyranids I'll say they're a lot better. However we now live and die by Synapse more then ever. Add in that venomthropes and Zoentropes got a lot more expensive on a per unit basis and it means that we definitely have a breaking point. And that's fine, it's how they should play. Expect to see a lot more warriors hitting the field to provide Synapse.
Gloomfang wrote: After a couple of games with my Tyranids I'll say they're a lot better. However we now live and die by Synapse more then ever. Add in that venomthropes and Zoentropes got a lot more expensive on a per unit basis and it means that we definitely have a breaking point. And that's fine, it's how they should play. Expect to see a lot more warriors hitting the field to provide Synapse.
I hope so I want to see varied tyranid lists using all their different models.
When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.
Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.
DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.
Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.
Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.
The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.
It is not just BA though where there are no duh options
The dread movements are slightly greater (only 2 inches) than they were in 7th if you also ran as you've included... but that still means a late game at best, possible, assault - with several turns of eating face. The Furioso used to be AV13 at least, like the IronClad... the IronClad is now T8 though and Furioso is T7. You are really overestimating a short-ranged / CC dread marching across the table, it has never been a good option. Further, now heavy weapon teams/units can still move and shoot better than ever before.
For the Blood Talons, you also lose the re-roll you get with the Fists.
The DC, yeah you are not wrong, they don't look terrible, but they are not what they used to be for sure, and don't hit as hard in CC as previously-comparable units. Anyway, I can live with this...
The Sanguinary Guard were overpriced last edition, they went up in cost and yeah all the "Blood Angel Pistols" [Angelus (well they're not pistols), Hand Flamer, Infernus] are just totally not worth it for the points.
The character thing, I don't hate character bubbles, it's just they picked the lamest characters - true I could make my own count-as but still. Dante is supposedly the oldest living SM yet he is the weakest of the Chapter Masters in the book, while emo-dracula Astorath is must-take unit now.
The Baal predator is highly situational unlike the regular Pred. Having played BA since 2nd edition, the only time the short ranged Baal Predator was ever really useful was when it had Outflank or facing hoards. Otherwise, unless you're bringing a lot of other armour, which is not necessarily a BA style list - it's dead before taking a shot. This edition without Rear-armour etc, it might survive to get some shots in ...ok great - while a regular Predator OTOH is shooting and being useful all game. Baal isn't bad - the regular Predator is just much much better.
When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.
Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.
DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.
Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.
Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.
The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.
It is not just BA though where there are no duh options
The dread movements are slightly greater (only 2 inches) than they were in 7th if you also ran as you've included... but that still means a late game at best, possible, assault - with several turns of eating face. The Furioso used to be AV13 at least, like the IronClad... the IronClad is now T8 though and Furioso is T7. You are really overestimating a short-ranged / CC dread marching across the table, it has never been a good option. Further, now heavy weapon teams/units can still move and shoot better than ever before.
For the Blood Talons, you also lose the re-roll you get with the Fists.
The DC, yeah you are not wrong, they don't look terrible, but they are not what they used to be for sure, and don't hit as hard in CC as previously-comparable units. Anyway, I can live with this...
The Sanguinary Guard were overpriced last edition, they went up in cost and yeah all the "Blood Angel Pistols" [Angelus (well they're not pistols), Hand Flamer, Infernus] are just totally not worth it for the points.
The character thing, I don't hate character bubbles, it's just they picked the lamest characters - true I could make my own count-as but still. Dante is supposedly the oldest living SM yet he is the weakest of the Chapter Masters in the book, while emo-dracula Astorath is must-take unit now.
The Baal predator is highly situational unlike the regular Pred. Having played BA since 2nd edition, the only time the short ranged Baal Predator was ever really useful was when it had Outflank or facing hoards. Otherwise, unless you're bringing a lot of other armour, which is not necessarily a BA style list - it's dead before taking a shot. This edition without Rear-armour etc, it might survive to get some shots in ...ok great - while a regular Predator OTOH is shooting and being useful all game. Baal isn't bad - the regular Predator is just much much better.
The dreads can now run and shoot with their weapons, so that makes a pretty big difference in speed, also 3 deployments now have you within 18" of the enemy deployment zone, this means you can get there in 2 turns. With 8" range shooting and running, each turn has you at ~17" threat range. By turn 2 you are 8+8+8 +2D6 for range. So 31" threat range which is pretty good. Also remember now you can re-roll your run if desired. I'm not saying they are the best ever, but they are not bad at all. Using them will require providing other threats to your opponent.
Maybe it is just the ork player in me, the Baal scares me way more than the standard pred. It is not always useful, so it is meta dependent, in an infantry heavy meta the regular pred is strictly worse, in a meta with lots of multiple wound high T models it is better. Each has a role.
I think Dante is ok, his extra speed over all the other Chapter masters should not be over looked, nor should his deployment options with deepstrike. Having a 12" move with a re-roll bubble makes him very flexible. He is very mobile and has more attacks than any other CM. He is just expensive.
Neferhet wrote: I think that any army that has access to large masses of average infantry (cheap masses) will have the upper hand; also midstrenght weapons spam, be it melee or ranged seems to give an advantage. This puts Tyranids (they are also FAST) and Imperial Guard (how many plasmaguns can you bring at 2000 pts? how many infantry squads? Answer: too many.) as my personal top dogs.
masses allow for wounds out of sheer statistic, dominate the objective games, dictates movement and deepstrikes, absorb enemy firepower...midstrenght weapons at worst wound on 5+, and en masse can ruin anything.
4 squads of guard with a plasmagun each roghly cost like a decent firebase tank. Guess who is better (at everything)?
This is definitely what I am getting out of it.
The meta may shift but masses of troops with a special/heavy weapons for punching through vehicles/monsters seems the way to go.
Vehicles seem very expensive and are vulnerable to high damage guns in a way basic troops are not
I could imagine this could create a meta of flamers but none of them seem to be as lethal as they used to be.
From a DE perspective I think massed kabalite warriors with some trueborn/scourges for some point blaster fire onto characters and other trouble units is going to be the most efficient way to deal with things.
Gunzhard wrote: Wait - dreadnoughts can run(advance) and still shoot/pop-smoke and/or charge? ...where did I miss this? I'm not sure that's right.
Yeah the Baal Pred is nice against Orks.
Frag Cannons are a Assault Weapon, You can Advance and still shoot a Assault Weapon at -1
You cannot charge though
But One thing for people to remember is that these Indexes are gap fillers until the armies get their own Codex.
We have all seen pic of the upcoming models for Death Guard and Primus Marines, So I would expect their Codex's to be released shortly (Death Guard really got the short end of the stick in the Index)
Tyel wrote: I could imagine this could create a meta of flamers but none of them seem to be as lethal as they used to be.
Some of the Guard flamer choices are pretty nice, and although the heavy flamer is expensive I do think you get what you pay for. For most vehicles a heavy flamer avoids the annoying -1 to hit with heavies rule. That makes it a very appealing weapon for a mobile vehicle. Also, vehicles can now overwatch, which further improves flamers. I m seriously considering running a couple of dual flamer chimeras, a couple of flamer hellhounds, some flamer scout sentinels and possibly even something crazy, like a 3xflamer demolisher. Hell, you could even slap 8 flamers on a hellhammer if you want a unit that noone will ever want to charge. That is an average of 28 flamer hits on overwatch, not to mention all of the other guns.
My opinion is definitely changing from "17 points for a heavy flamer is insane" to "wow, flamers are lethal".
Gunzhard wrote: Ah great for frag dreads, not so great for CC dreads.
That is true, but if you take a Stormraven you can drop them off right in front of the enemy and make a T2 charge with ease
Agreed, and the Stormraven does look nice. But as a long time BA player, and as someone who also just recently bought Angel's Blade [dreadnought formations] like most current BA players, I have a crap-ton of dreads to put on the table haha, mostly all the CC variety.
Anyway, yeah things change, I can deal, but I certainly won't agree with anyone that say's the BA dreads are pointed correctly as they ARE less useful than any shooty variety, and can only work in very situational combinations of luck and additional cost [stormraven].
Which is really the point I've been making, the BA stuff overall - it's not terrible - but the points, on really the bulk of the BA specific items[Sang Guard, Angelus Bolters, Infernus Pistol, Hand Flamer, Furioso Dreads etc] just don't seem to make sense.
Gunzhard, vehicles are much more resilient today than 7th. And that applys to Dreadnoughts too. 2-3 dreadnoughts isn't something that many armies can kill in the first 1-2 turns of shooting. Only if they focus all of their fire. And if they focus all of their fire in those 3 dreads it means they aren't shooting the rest of your army.
I don't saying this to justify their cost because to be honest I don't what it is. Only saying that the "Drop pod or death" of 7th for meele units isn't in 8th.
Traditio wrote: My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.
IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.
For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.
Those ones are free.
Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.
IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.
And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.
Galas wrote: Gunzhard, vehicles are much more resilient today than 7th. And that applys to Dreadnoughts too. 2-3 dreadnoughts isn't something that many armies can kill in the first 1-2 turns of shooting. Only if they focus all of their fire. And if they focus all of their fire in those 3 dreads it means they aren't shooting the rest of your army.
I don't saying this to justify their cost because to be honest I don't what it is. Only saying that the "Drop pod or death" of 7th for meele units isn't in 8th.
Not disagreeing there. But again, situational for a possible contribution (other than just drawing fire). If I take 3 long-range dreads they are still drawing fire but actually contributing the entire game without a stormraven or limbo-trek across the table to maybe contribute. They are different animals with different usage - but all of the situational BA dreads are MORE expensive than the other SM dreadnoughts.
The IronClad dreadnought is T8, with a Siesmic Hammer and Dread-CC-arm, it's still cheaper than a Furioso with 2 Fists (forget about the Talons which are even way more expensive).
The shooty dreads can be built even cheaper.
Anyway - I am more than fine to move on from 'drop pod of death' skies raining CC dreads - but the CC dreads shouldn't be the same price, let alone MORE than the shooty dreads which have much more usage.
Luciferian wrote: Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.
I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.
being able to mix weapon types though is a pretty damn useful trait in 8th.
Traditio wrote: My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.
IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.
For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.
Those ones are free.
Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.
IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.
And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.
What's stopping Guard from getting cover? Did they seriously lose access to camo nets, smoke launchers, fortifications and terrain?
Losing the Apoc blast template must have hurt, the others seem to balance out to an average, they don't collect bunched up squads of mini bases anymore but they no longer scatter either.
Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.
IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.
And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.
That sounds like a nerf to me.
A set of much needed nerfs.
But a nerf nonetheless.
Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.
IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.
And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.
That sounds like a nerf to me.
A set of much needed nerfs.
But a nerf nonetheless.
Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.
Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....
Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....
Well, yeah.
But I'm asking where the IG touched Traditio. Because I want to know, so I can poke the Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines there before 7e goes and get one final fiery retribution if we deserve a nerf so badly.
For what it's worth, I don't feel underpowered while playing my Sisters as I do when playing my Guardsmen. The Sisters just haven't had any attention in a long while. We're not great, sure, and we've been neglected, but we're not bad. We've got a few good things, and they're good enough to keep us in the fight. Also, we've got Celestine. But playing my guardsmen I feel like I'm dredging the bottom of the barrel for the cheesiest thing I can find in my book to meet parity with a mostly casual Tau list.
Missile launchers damage leeman russ tanks on 4s. IG tanks' stats degrade with damage. IG has lost blast templates. And marines now have a 2+ armor save in cover.
IG, however, are practically never going to get cover.
And I can try to stop IG from shooting my marines by ramming them with a rhino.
That sounds like a nerf to me.
A set of much needed nerfs.
But a nerf nonetheless.
Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.
Because GW hates the common man.... and Sisters....
Well, yeah.
But I'm asking where the IG touched Traditio. Because I want to know, so I can poke the Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines there before 7e goes and get one final fiery retribution if we deserve a nerf so badly.
Poke 'em.... poke 'em so hard. Think I got a meme for this here stuff.
IIRC, it's because LRs have a S8 AP3 large blast on a front AV 14 vehicle, and traditio plays with either TS or ML/flamer 5th edition rhino rush marines (with one or two melta guns if his last SM list is indicative of his current list)
Wolfblade wrote: IIRC, it's because LRs have a S8 AP3 large blast on a front AV 14 vehicle, and traditional plays with either TS or ML/flamer 5th edition rhino rush marines (with one or two melta guns if his last SM list is indicative of his current list)
Hahahaha....
The Leman Russ tank is crap. Seriously. And if you're playing Rhino Rush via. Gladius or otherwise, it can't even kill the Rhinos.
Maybe if he was complaining about Wyverns or Manticores. I had a Tau player complain to me that my Wyvern was OP because it ignored his Tideline one time, and a local Necron player maintains the Manticore is OP.
Also, Nekota, that's adorable. Seen it before, but it's still adorable.
I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.
daedalus wrote: I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.
It's mainly panic setting in for those that can't see how their army is going to rank in 8th. It's simply too early to know. If you look around there is a thread for every army with someone losing their gak over the new edition. In a couple of months we will have a better idea of where each army stands in the rankings, Once those handful of players that actually create the net lists do their thing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.
This is such a logical fallacy.
"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."
No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.
However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.
IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling scatter dice for blast templates), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.
In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.
No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.
When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.
No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.
But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.
In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.
In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.
But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.
And they needed to be.
I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.
But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.
Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos. In fact, add on assault marines with double flamer combi-flamer in drop pods and you could of built a marine list that was imposssible for any straight guard list to survive with just those units.
It's weird if IG were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments. Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry. It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.
ERJAK wrote: Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos.
This is not a real answer. Grav cannons are commonly recognized to be one of the most OP things of 7th edition.
Tacticals, devastators and assault marines in rhinos generally are not beating IG lists without grav.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.
This is such a logical fallacy.
"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."
No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.
However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.
IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling blast masters), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.
In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.
No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.
When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.
No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.
But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.
In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.
In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.
But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.
And they needed to be.
I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.
But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.
I'm not so sure. Every army copped a beating with the Nerf Hammer at the start of the edition, it's more likely that other armies will be buffed to the level of the front runners rather than the front runners being nerfed back.
Buffs sell models, nerfs don't.
Wolfblade wrote: It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.
I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.
"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?
People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.
Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.
Relative to what?
It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.
Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?
No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.
And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.
ERJAK wrote: Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos.
This is not a real answers. Grav cannons are commonly recognized to be one of the most OP things of 7th edition.
Tacticals, devastators and assault marines in rhinos generally are not beating IG lists without grav.
That's idiotic. 'Oh ya, stormsurges are pretty strong but they'd never beat orks without guns or stomps.'
Whether or not they could beat guard without grav is utterly irrelevant because THEY HAVE GRAV! Grav is a thing they have, and they can use it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?
May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?
So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.
This is such a logical fallacy.
"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."
No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.
However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.
IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling blast masters), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.
In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.
No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.
When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.
No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.
But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.
In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.
In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.
But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.
And they needed to be.
I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.
But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.
UHHH.... Huh...
I don't know what to say. The Leman Russ is a pile of crap, and it's going to be even more of a pile of crap in 8e. Have you been trying to lose? Seriously.
And with regards to how standard IG lists fare to standard marine ones: TERRIBLY. SERIOUSLY.
Grav guns make our armor meaninless beyond meaningless. Drop-pods rain from the skies filled with meltaguns! The Vindicator Linebreaker Squadron rolls up and carpets a 10" diameter section of our line in A10, AP2, Ignores Cover and all our guys turn into a bloody mist [and half our artillery caught in that blast too!] Rhinos and Razorbacks roll across the field by the score, which were ALL FREE. If you're not intentionally trying to lose, we won't have enough guns to kill you.
Wolfblade wrote: It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.
I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.
"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?
People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.
Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.
Relative to what?
It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.
Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?
No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.
And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.
It doesn't take long reading your posts to realize that there's no way you're good enough at the game for your opinions on what is and is not good to hold water.
Also, Mr. Space Marine Rhinos player, you have to gall to complain about me spamming Vehicles?
Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.
My army is supposed to have tanks. We're supposed to have lots of them, and they're supposed to be good because nothing else is. Except the Leman Russ is so laughably bad.
You know what also pisses me off? When I bring 3 tanks, you know what I got out of it? 3 TANKS! YAY! They all have to shoot the same target too! You know what happens if you bring 3 tanks, each of which is cheaper than my equivalent one? They all get a buff.
Let me spell this out for you: A Leman Russ Demolisher is flat-out 165. A Vindicator is 125. They're both pretty much equally survivable, though the Leman Russ has much better side armor. Except, when you bring 3 Vindicators, you get to combine them into a 10", Str.10, AP2, Ignores Cover blast. And they can still split their fire, or concentrate fire normally for 3 5" blasts. You know what my Demolishers get? NOTHING.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I don't know what to say. The Leman Russ is a pile of crap
The Leeman Russ is virtually immune to most shooting if you don't specifically load your list with things that can consistently hurt AV 14.
I can now slaughter them with krak missiles.
This is a good thing.
And with regards to how standard IG lists fare to standard marine ones:
Except, that's not what I asked. I'm not asking about the "standard marine ones." I'm specifically asking about assault marines, devastator marines and tactical marines in rhinos without grav.
Again, the fact that there are OP options in the SM codex doesn't make standard IG lists not OP.
Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.
I agree. The 7th edition gladius was OP. It needed to die.
But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.
Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.
I agree. The 7th edition gladius was OP. It needed to die.
But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.
Really? Really?
Are you ******* ******* me?
Yeah, if you brought nothing but boltguns on footslogging tactical marines all lined up B2B across your field, then sure we're OP, because you're TRYING TO LOSE. If you brought a meltagun or a grav gun, you safely ignore our armor. If you're worried about making it to my line, lookee, you get a nice little box for 35 points! You can get a box with a gun for 75 points! You can get a deep-striking box, that can drop right next to our artillery and never mishap and deliver a meltaguns squad right there for a pittance! I Pay 65 points for each transport.
Do you realize how hard it is to kill your little metal boxes? Do you? Put your grav guns in your little metal boxes and roll around and shoot my tanks to death, there's nothing I can do. Your cute little 11/11/10 box, the worst of your metal box collection, costs less than half the price of the unit I need to have any chance of killing it, assuming you actually paid for it at all.
Here's my current favorite list:
INQ Coteaz
CAD CCS Platoon, 5x Infantry w/ Plasma & Lascannon
Lascannon weapons team
Missile weapons team
Vets, Meltaguns
Shadowsword
ADL
Traditio wrote: But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.
Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.
Peregrine wrote:Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.
How is 7th edition IG vs. trukk spam?
How about against Khorne Berserkers?
What about against noise marines?
How are IG against tyrranids list that don't include one or more flyrants?
How about against DE lists that don't spam raiders?
Again, if your point of reference is "the best lists that can be brought in the current meta," then IG are not OP.
But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.
Peregrine wrote:Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.
How is 7th edition IG vs. trukk spam?
How about against Khorne Berserkers?
What about against noise marines?
How are IG against tyrranids list that don't include one or more flyrants or use the invisibility psychic power?
How about against DE lists that don't spam raiders?
Again, if your point of reference are "the best lists that can be brought in the current meta," then IG are not OP.
But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.
Vs. Trukks, I win. Orks are the only army worse than us. He made it to my lines, then choked and I rallied and pushed him back.
Vs. Khorne, I get massacred terribly. Seen that. It leaves nothing but a trail of wrecked tanks behind, and they're our tanks.
Vs. Noise Marines, I've never tried it.
Vs. Tyranids, I lose. Been there, played it at least 50 times. I can't kill MC's for my life. Drop Carnifexes in Tyrannocytes. There's a reason I have that big block of Lascannons with Coteaz in my "good" list.
Vs. DE, Seen that too. Ends badly for the Guard.
If I bring my best list, the list I worked on since the edition started and revised to meet all comers in competitive play, and you bring your worst one, sure, I'm going to win most of the time. And if I bring my medicore list against yours, I die horribly.
Here's my non-competitive list:
ABG TC Vanq + BH + Las
TC Vanq + BH + Las
LRBT + Las
LR Demolisher
Shadowsword
It's great for losing games, actually, but it's damn fun to play. You're free to find a guard player where you live and convince him to run it, then play against it. If you can't see at least 3 ways to obliterate it with a standard SM list, no Gladius required, I can't help you.
So seriously, our competitive lists is only a little better than your crappy list.
Also worth mention:
My Guard list versus my Sisters list results in my Sisters winning almost every time. They're better equipped to deal with literally every single threat that I see regularly than my Guardsmen. Every threat except Knights, actually, but that's besides the point. Are the Sisters of Battle OP?
Wolfblade wrote: It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.
I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.
"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?
People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.
Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.
Relative to what?
It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.
Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?
No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.
And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.
1. It's not a matter of IG being less OP than marines/eldar/etc, it's a matter of IG being underpowered. Their tanks are weak and overpriced. The stock LR can't fire anything but snapshots if it fires it's main gun, and if it gets stunned/shaken it can't fire any blasts/templates anyways. Combined with only 3HP, a large profile and being slow means they die very quickly (I. E. Drop melta, 6 sternguard with combi meltas will deal enough to put it down fairly easy).
2. Infantry? T3, 5+ with LD8 won't stick around long. They either run off, or simply get vaporized by even basic weapons.
3. Who takes an army of marines with only a couple MLs (with flakk), a melta gun or two, and flamers? And you mean the special/heavy weapons on the T3 5+ who can't survive if they aren't stuck in cover? Or the (mostly) overpriced heavy weapons?
4. Vets are OK, but again T3 5+ before upgrades, costing 60pt. That's pretty expensive considering 5 marines are 65pt.
Traditio wrote: But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.
Only because "all of the army selections that are actually available" consists of things like bringing a naked 5-man tactical squad (and nothing else) to a 50,000 point Apocalypse game. All you're doing is proving that if you cut out enough stuff you can find a "rest of the game" that loses to IG. But that doesn't make IG anywhere near a good army.
wuestenfux wrote: Necrons dont look as strong as in the 7th ed.
Still not a bad army but I guess they will be mid tier at most.
Not sure about that. They have lost some of the Decurion synergy buffs but a lot of other stuff is looking strong.
RPs now work every turn as long as the unit is still alive. This means that you can still be rolling to reanimate guys several turns later as long as one of their buddies is still alive. Warriors can now wound anything in the game and have -1AP to boot. Large blobs of Warriors with Crypteks form a very solid core.
Necron vehicles are looking good too as they have a pile of hitpoints to keep living metal ticking over. Also the Quuantum Armour no longer pops like a bubble after the first hit. Destroyers are still good and any heavy destroyers embedded in units can split fire.
The trick is to stop your enemy focussing fire and wiping out 1-2 units each turn so that they cannot repair/reanimate. This is where our fast units come in handy. Wraiths are not as scary as they were but they are still great for tying up enemy units. I think Necrons will play a little differently but are still looking strong.
Traditio wrote: But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.
Only because "all of the army selections that are actually available" consists of things like bringing a naked 5-man tactical squad (and nothing else) to a 50,000 point Apocalypse game. All you're doing is proving that if you cut out enough stuff you can find a "rest of the game" that loses to IG. But that doesn't make IG anywhere near a good army.
There's a wide gulf between "conforming to the meta" and "taking only a single infantry squad without upgrades in a 50,000 point game."
Again, yes, IG are at a disadvantage to 7th edition lists that "conform to the meta."
However, there are many lists (which, for the sake of argument, have an HQ, troops, fast attacks, elites, heavy supports and various upgrades, total up to the agreed upon points limit, are drawn from a single faction, etc.) which standard IG lists would steam roll.
In fact, if you compare the number of meta-conforming lists against which IG would lose to the number of non-meta conforming, but still "reasonable" lists against which IG would win, the number against which standard "competitive" IG lists would win is greater.
wuestenfux wrote: Necrons dont look as strong as in the 7th ed.
Still not a bad army but I guess they will be mid tier at most.
Not sure about that. They have lost some of the Decurion synergy buffs but a lot of other stuff is looking strong.
RPs now work every turn as long as the unit is still alive. This means that you can still be rolling to reanimate guys several turns later as long as one of their buddies is still alive. Warriors can now wound anything in the game and have -1AP to boot. Large blobs of Warriors with Crypteks form a very solid core.
Necron vehicles are looking good too as they have a pile of hitpoints to keep living metal ticking over. Also the Quuantum Armour no longer pops like a bubble after the first hit. Destroyers are still good and any heavy destroyers embedded in units can split fire.
The trick is to stop your enemy focussing fire and wiping out 1-2 units each turn so that they cannot repair/reanimate. This is where our fast units come in handy. Wraiths are not as scary as they were but they are still great for tying up enemy units. I think Necrons will play a little differently but are still looking strong.
Good observations.
We'll have to wait and see how other armies fare. It has been said that most of the armies got nerved or toned down.
Genestealer Cult and Nids may be the exceptions.
Now you're just being dishonest, comparing "competitive" IG lists to poorly-optimized lists from other codices. Compare like to like and IG were clearly lower-tier.
Wolfblade wrote:1. It's not a matter of IG being less OP than marines/eldar/etc, it's a matter of IG being underpowered. Their tanks are weak and overpriced. The stock LR can't fire anything but snapshots if it fires it's main gun, and if it gets stunned/shaken it can't fire any blasts/templates anyways. Combined with only 3HP, a large profile and being slow means they die very quickly (I. E. Drop melta, 6 sternguard with combi meltas will deal enough to put it down fairly easy).
All of what you are saying is perfectly meaningless without a point of reference.
Their tanks are overpriced relative to what? You mention the limitations of LRs, but why does that make them either overcosted or underpowered? Relative to what?
Furthermore, you understand what you are actually saying with the last bit of what you just said, right?
What you are saying is:
"If you take scissors, you'll beat paper. Every single time."
The fact that scissors beats paper doesn't make paper bad.
2. Infantry? T3, 5+ with LD8 won't stick around long. They either run off, or simply get vaporized by even basic weapons.
They're not supposed to stick around long. That's why they only cost 5 ppm in 7th edition. Again, the reason you take them is: 1. to unlock special/heavy weapons, 2. to hold objectives and 3. to screen the rest of your stuff/deny space to the opponent.
Viewed in that light, basic guardsmen are pretty effective.
They're even MORE effective in 8th edition in those regards.
3. Who takes an army of marines with only a couple MLs (with flakk), a melta gun or two, and flamers? And you mean the special/heavy weapons on the T3 5+ who can't survive if they aren't stuck in cover? Or the (mostly) overpriced heavy weapons?
Why would you put a heavy weapons team outside of cover? And why would you NOT put a special weapons team in a dedicated transport?
4. Vets are OK, but again T3 5+ before upgrades, costing 60pt. That's pretty expensive considering 5 marines are 65pt.
No, they're not "pretty expensive considering that 5 marines are 65 pt."
You're simply viewing the matter from the wrong perspective.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for the tactical squad is a delivery system for a SINGLE heavy or special weapon.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for vets is a delivery system for THREE special weapons that you can stick in a dedicated transport.
Point for point, the vets are more cost efficient for what they do.
Again, that's part of what makes IGOP in my view.
"Elite" equivalents like tactical marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency.
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Peregrine wrote: Now you're just being dishonest, comparing "competitive" IG lists to poorly-optimized lists from other codices. Compare like to like and IG were clearly lower-tier.
To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).
Obviously, many things in the 7th ed. IG codex are either fine or needed a buff.
"Their tanks are overpriced relative to what? You mention the limitations of LRs, but why does that make them either overcosted or underpowered? Relative to what?"
The Stock Leman Russ is 150 points, for a single 72" Large Blast S8 AP3 Gun and a Heavy Bolter. Oh, and that big gun also is Ordnance, so the HB is worthless 90% of the time. It only gets worse when you go to specialty tanks such as the Vanquisher, with its single shot gun hitting on a 4+ and most of its damage capacity requiring that roll to succeed. The Demolisher pays the points for its gun, which, funnily enough, is 24" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance, so still not doing anything with auxiliary weapons. The only good Russ objectively is the Eradicator and that's because its gun actually allows the Russ to take sponsons that work within its desired target envelop, unlike the Vanquisher which is stuck with Multi Meltas.
"They're not supposed to stick around long. That's why they only cost 5 ppm in 7th edition. Again, the reason you take them is: 1. to unlock special/heavy weapons, 2. to hold objectives and 3. to screen the rest of your stuff/deny space to the opponent.
Viewed in that light, basic guardsmen are pretty effective."
But they aren't. A basic infantry squad is 50 points, with an autocannon, you're looking at 60. Congratulations, you've spent 60 points to sit there and plink away at light armor and maybe get lucky. How rare do I have the pleasure of not doing anything with my basic infantry!
"Why would you put a heavy weapons team outside of cover? And why would you NOT put a special weapons team in a dedicated transport?"
SWS can not purchase a dedicated transport, and HWS are only three men with Ld7, even if they are two wound models. Force morale, and on average, they're going to break quite a bit without morale support, which costs more points on top of that. A three lascannon HWS also costs 105 points and will only ever have a 5+ save hitting on 4s
"You're simply viewing the matter from the wrong perspective.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for the tactical squad is a delivery system for a SINGLE heavy or special weapon.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for vets is a delivery system for THREE special weapons that you can stick in a dedicated transport.
Point for point, the vets are more cost efficient for what they do."
A Min tactical squad with meltagun is 75 points, 110 with a Rhino. An Infantry Squad with Meltagun in a Chimera is 125. A Veteran squad with three Meltaguns in a Chimera is 155. Oh, and the Infantry Squad requires taking a platoon, so you're mandated into a command squad and another infantry squad. Oh, and the Chimera is more vulnerable to the sides against, funnily enough, almost every faction in the game's basic infantry weapons. Turns out, boltguns can glance AV10 and corner to corner gives a wide side arc. Also, the delivery system comparison is moot, when a Tactical Squad at five men can take a Grav Cannon and rhino for 135 points and be drastically more efficient against all sorts of targets compared to a triple meltagun chimera.
""Elite" equivalents like tactical marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency."
Yes they can, because a five man tactical squad has a reliable chance of breaking a 10 man guard squad in a single round of shooting, or assault, or by just ignoring their lasgun shots or by killing the russ they've been forced to bubble wrap to keep the russ alive
Point of reference is obvious Traditio, it's vs similar units. Such as Fire prisims/falcons/doomsday arks/hammerheads/etc.
As for point efficiency that IG squad is 155 points (with 3 melta guns, 170 with plasma guns and no other upgrades) and a stock chimera, which by the way is an AV12/10/10 HP3 vehicle. Not exactly hard to cripple, then proceed to murder the the T3 5+ infantry inside.
And "marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency." Is that why marines are top tier and guard and lower mid tier? Marines can't compete if you only bring flamers, and MLs, true but most people bring more than that. As for competitive IG, they're about as effective as a wet noodle is at taking down a tiger. They don't score/hold objectives well, they don't wipe out vast parts of an army in an amazing alpha strike, and they're slow as feth, and everything is overpriced with a few exceptions I think (wyvern are pretty good).
Traditio wrote: To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).
Only if you apply a principle that every "competitive"* build, from every codex, needs to be nerfed, and that's an absurd thing to claim.
*Where by "competitive" you clearly mean "any army that can beat my 'tactical squads with missile launchers' army".
Traditio wrote: To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).
Only if you apply a principle that every "competitive"* build, from every codex, needs to be nerfed, and that's an absurd thing to claim.
*Where by "competitive" you clearly mean "any army that can beat my 'tactical squads with missile launchers' army".
Have you seen the new manticore's stats?
I don't think that it's an overstatement to say that, in certain respects, as grav was to the SM army, so too is the manticore to the IG army.
Frag Cannons are a Assault Weapon, You can Advance and still shoot a Assault Weapon at -1
You cannot charge though
But One thing for people to remember is that these Indexes are gap fillers until the armies get their own Codex.
We have all seen pic of the upcoming models for Death Guard and Primus Marines, So I would expect their Codex's to be released shortly (Death Guard really got the short end of the stick in the Index)
This is true, I expect Primaris and DG Codices before Christmas. However, we may have a loooong wait for other stuff. Just look at AoS, it has been 2 years since it dropped and there are many factions still without a Battle Tome. And even for some factions that have received Tomes, they may only cover part of a faction (Flesh Eater Courts). As one of the older armies with no sign of a revamp, I suspect BAs will be using the Index list for some time to come. Our best hope is that GWFAQ some of the more absurd points values like the Angelus.
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
Wolfblade wrote: The 7th ed Manticore? It's OK, but the 36" min range REALLY hurts it.
You may want to check out the 8th edition manticores when you get the chance.
Imho, they are overpowered.
not really, the guns on it are powerful sure, but it suffers from the same problems a LOT of guard heavy ordinance does, it now needs a direct hit, and as such their weapons are more likely to miss. witrh a 4+ BS a manticore has a 50% chance of missing any target. it fires at, and only has 4 of the missiles. sure it'll wipe out a tac squad right quick, and be pretty devestating on any army that can run a LARGE number of multi wound troops (about the ONLY unit in 40k I can think of that the Manticore would be "uniquely well suited to kill" would be a horde of 30 Boyz) but it's not THAT great. remember it can fire 1 missile a turn, and only has 4 shots. situationally it's good, but TBH I'd rather have a Wyvren.
A Long Fang costs fifteen points, plus another fifteen for his nearly useless bodyguard pack leader and twenty five points for his Missile Launcher - Wolf Scouts cost eleven points per model and come as a squad of five plus another twenty five points for a Missile Launcher and three points per model for camo cloaks.
A grand old total of a hundred and fifty points.
Dakka Wolf wrote: A Long Fang costs fifteen points, plus another fifteen for his nearly useless bodyguard pack leader and twenty five points for his Missile Launcher - Wolf Scouts cost eleven points per model and come as a squad of five plus another twenty five points for a Missile Launcher and three points per model for camo cloaks.
A grand old total of a hundred and fifty points.
How much does an 8th edition Manticore cost?
133 points.
for point of comparison a Storm Eagle Rocket deals heavy 2d6 S 10, AP -2, Damage: D3. (range 120 inches)
it's not bad at all but if I was fighting Tradio and his "missile tac squads in rhinos" list I'd prefer the cheaper Wyvren.
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
I agree. Outside of some things that just seem a bit weirdly costed, I think there's a lot of nuance to army build and playstyles that will take a few weeks to really hammer out.
For example, after a couple of games I realise that screening units seem very important now. Protecting your good shooting units from being charged gives a huge boost to their efficiency so it's often worth sacrificing 50-100 points to keep 150-200 points of guys at full effectiveness. They also allow your proper assault units to avoid being charged themselves. That's a tactic that wasn't quite so prevalent in 7th ed, mainly because the lethality of weapons in the previous edition meant your screening units tended to die very quickly. I'm not saying it's revolutionary or anything, but it's an example of how things have changed in the new edition.
Any army with cheap characters and infantry will probably be good in 8th. It's a bit more difficult to remove masses of infantry now that blasts and templates have gone and models get saves more often. Cheap characters allow armies to utilise the different force org charts and get more command points so I think we'll be seeing them quite often. There are some good, cheap buffing characters now too.
So three would be just shy of four hundred points, plus however much their little hidey buff boys cost.
With a hundred and fifty points I put down one and got a second down to a single wound, plus kept them firing into cover for four rounds before my Fangs and Scouts kicked the bucket.
This was in a game, not a vacuum and my other points were tied up elsewhere but if I'd invested smarter and purchased more Missile Launchers for another unit of Fangs or even another unit of Scouts, maybe shown some patience and waited for the results of the shootout rather than rushing across the field like an idiot I might have been charging towards an enemy under suppressing fire rather than being the target of it.
Manticores are nifty with their ability to shoot without Line of Sight but they're a far cry from an Over Powered unit.
Melissia wrote: I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.
That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.
It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.
IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.
Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.
Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.
You also need to buy a squad in order to take them, so they don't end up cheaper unless you already wanted that squad. They are also slower.
You don't need to buy a squad specifically to take a Razor. You can take one for every other choice in your army, it doesn't have to be a unit that can fit in it - you can take one for a HQ, a Dread, a Pred etc
Baals are also only really faster if you're taking the Flamestorm variant, you're likely not be advancing the AssCan one as you'll want to be firing the gun.
Baals are overpriced compared to the Razorbacks, and Razors not taking up a slot is a big bonus.
Melissia wrote: I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.
That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.
It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.
IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.
Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.
When fluff and crunch don't align, or the game devolves into RAW versus RAI, or the nerfs destroy the whole purpose of fielding a unit in the first place, that's when the game falls apart for me.
Tyranids in 7th are the prime example of this. When they're described as an all-devouring swarm, I guess they don't mean in terms of the models fielded but in terms of how many Devourer shots are being fired by Hive Tyrants.
Or with 8th, it takes a lot of nerve for people to imply that Obliterators were overpowered in 7th. So why were they hit so hard with the nerfbat? Why was their "morph-a-gun" shtick replaced with an Orky Autocannon? Why force them to run in squads of 3 or remove their Fists? Sure, they can reliably Deepstrike and they can shoot while advancing, but if the same "tactics" for a Landspeeder are now the same for this slow hulking gun-brute, something went wrong.
The fact Traitor Legions is gone (it was only out since December), with no Legion rules is insulting. The fact you can now freely field Magnus (as a LOW, he is a detachment of one) alongside Death Guard is even more insulting for this edition too. Then you notice the detail in which Warhammer Community articles go into for armies (compare the detail that went into the Chaos Faction Focus vs Harlequins), to the bold-faced lies in other articles (seriously, I had to take a break from reading Frankie talk about Thousand Sons) and there's still obvious favoritism going on.
I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".
Dakka Wolf wrote: I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".
HYDRA! RETREAT!!!!!!
Seriously though, this is the second time I've collected a Word Bearers army only for it to be rendered functionally unplayable. Fool me once GW, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Honestly, as a fellow Word Bearer player, I'd say 8th is much kinder overall to our style of play.
It's no longer 'spam Sorcerers & DPs in order to not be the worst Legion'.
Bloody unfluffy Sorcerer Spam... a true follower of the Dark Gods has a Dark Apostle and summons daemons with rituals!
Boiling Word Bearers down to 'lol summonz' was horrible. At least now other units that fit the army just as well if not better (in a spam sense) like Possessed and actual Chaos Space Marines are good (or at least decent) rather than complete trash (even if the lack of bolter/chainsword marines kind of stings a bit).
I'm fairly keen for this new edition, everything seems balanced enough so far. Finally I can have a match against an opponent and not feel guilty just for taking a certain army against an opponent playing with another certain army.
Perhaps the only thing that really stands out to me for IG is the 27pt mortar spam. That's some serious infantry killing power there for a pittance of points.
The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Honestly, as a fellow Word Bearer player, I'd say 8th is much kinder overall to our style of play.
It's no longer 'spam Sorcerers & DPs in order to not be the worst Legion'.
Bloody unfluffy Sorcerer Spam... a true follower of the Dark Gods has a Dark Apostle and summons daemons with rituals!
Boiling Word Bearers down to 'lol summonz' was horrible. At least now other units that fit the army just as well if not better (in a spam sense) like Possessed and actual Chaos Space Marines are good (or at least decent) rather than complete trash (even if the lack of bolter/chainsword marines kind of stings a bit).
Lorgar *was* the fourth most powerful Psyker in the Imperium behind Malcador, Magnus and the Big E.
You didn't need to spam Sorcerers. You really only needed *one* on a Palanquin (perfect warshrine), maybe two tops. Word Bearers were horrible for a CAD but the Grand Host made them quite workable and their Warlord Table was actually rather handy. Massed Obsec wins games, and army-wide Crusader gets you places faster (I could almost always guarantee perfect running for my Spawn).
By contrast, Cultists have a point hike with nothing to show for it (by contrast, Guard went from 5 to 4, while getting auto-pass krders), the list of psychic buffs (Poison Cultists were always hilarious)/Warlord Traits are gone, Marks are gone period (Black Legion and Word Bearers were the only 2 Legions that could mix/match marks), Champion of Chaos is gone, Spell Familiars are gone...they've lost a lot compared to their previous iteration, but I guess it's now possible to build a 6-Heldrake list for games now so yay?
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.
Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.
Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.
MagicJuggler wrote: When fluff and crunch don't align, or the game devolves into RAW versus RAI, or the nerfs destroy the whole purpose of fielding a unit in the first place, that's when the game falls apart for me.
Tyranids in 7th are the prime example of this. When they're described as an all-devouring swarm, I guess they don't mean in terms of the models fielded but in terms of how many Devourer shots are being fired by Hive Tyrants.
Or with 8th, it takes a lot of nerve for people to imply that Obliterators were overpowered in 7th. So why were they hit so hard with the nerfbat? Why was their "morph-a-gun" shtick replaced with an Orky Autocannon? Why force them to run in squads of 3 or remove their Fists? Sure, they can reliably Deepstrike and they can shoot while advancing, but if the same "tactics" for a Landspeeder are now the same for this slow hulking gun-brute, something went wrong.
The fact Traitor Legions is gone (it was only out since December), with no Legion rules is insulting. The fact you can now freely field Magnus (as a LOW, he is a detachment of one) alongside Death Guard is even more insulting for this edition too. Then you notice the detail in which Warhammer Community articles go into for armies (compare the detail that went into the Chaos Faction Focus vs Harlequins), to the bold-faced lies in other articles (seriously, I had to take a break from reading Frankie talk about Thousand Sons) and there's still obvious favoritism going on.
The crunch has NEVER followed the fluff. It's so disjointed that I actively avoid the fluff, not just because it is terrible fiction, but so I don't have my perception of the game skewed.
Melissia wrote: I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.
That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.
It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.
IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.
Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.
Wolves were tanking lasguns with a 2+ armor IC. Let's be real here.
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.
Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.
Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.
And that there is nothing anyone has picked out as "oh my god, that's ridiculously powerful." When the Eldar Codex came out, anyone could see that spamming bikes with the right loadout was going to be broken before playing a single game with it. There is nothing like that I've seen anyone bring up here so far.
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".
Other than some concerns about the relative cost of Space Marines, I haven't heard too much complaining from CSM players.
If anything, the game is a little more fair than it's been in years.
Even within the scope of an individual codex there's a dramatic gap between the fluff and crunch. From rare prototype Riptides being fielded in massed numbers, to Dark Angels and Space Wolves teaming up to form The Superfriends, or the Eldar fielding a solo Culexus Assassin in order to disable said Superfriends, or Asdrubael Vect being absent altogether because he doesn't have a current model.
Tyranids, the all-devouring swarm are outnumbered by their foes as they relied on massed Flying Hive Tyrants for an aerial alpha-strike that would do Moshe Dayan proud, while Tactical Marines only serve as a "tax" to flood the board in cheap APCs to run over enemy troops. Meanwhile, there was a saying prior to Traitor Legions that "you win with Chaos Space Marines if you don't take any Chaos Space Marines in your army."
It's funny because tactical marines have ALWAYS been a dumpster fire unit. All the way back to 2nd. They were passable in 3rd until Xenos got codices. Then back to the dumpster fire.
8th ed, with universal split fire, has probably done the most to make THE iconic unit not a pile of poo. And heavies get -1 to hit when moving, not snap fire or no fire.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".
Other than some concerns about the relative cost of Space Marines, I haven't heard too much complaining from CSM players.
If anything, the game is a little more fair than it's been in years.
Obliterators are the big one, just because it was a pointless nerf to a unit that wasn't even that powerful for its points, that removed the whole point of fielding in the first place. Meanwhile a unit like the Riptide got costed upwards to impracticality, but it at least got to keep its Nova Reactor mechanic and play like it did.
I think that's a very accurate pricing for the Riptide. And yes, it's combination of abilities, when accurately priced are rather impractical. Sorry, but these playtesters are just being honest about its in-game worth.
Martel732 wrote: It's funny because tactical marines have ALWAYS been a dumpster fire unit. All the way back to 2nd. They were passable in 3rd until Xenos got codices. Then back to the dumpster fire.
8th ed, with universal split fire, has probably done the most to make THE iconic unit not a pile of poo. And heavies get -1 to hit when moving, not snap fire or no fire.
3rd was the era when Eldar could spam Starcannons, and the lack of TLOS meant you could hide a pile of War Walkers behind a Conceal/Fortune Guardian-blob. Of course it was also the era where Ulthwe could make a Seerstar by adding Infinity Warlocks to a Council.
5th made Grey Hunters viable, but that was a function of better transport rules then, and them getting the "Chaos grab bag." 6th fixed Rapid-fire but it also nerfed transport disembarks, and 7th kept that.
Honestly, if it was "5e transport rules for disembark/assault", 7e hullpoints with slight adjustments upward, replacing vehicle destroyed with "extra D3 HP", and making all Marines 15 pts base for Bolter/Pistol/Chainsword, you'd have a nice solidified base to work off from there, rather than these little granular differences like "Chaos Space Marines get Bolt Pistols AND Chainswords".
Obliterators are the big one, just because it was a pointless nerf to a unit that wasn't even that powerful for its points, that removed the whole point of fielding in the first place. Meanwhile a unit like the Riptide got costed upwards to impracticality, but it at least got to keep its Nova Reactor mechanic and play like it did.
Obliterators are as they are, because they need to exist without consuming some other unit entirely. When they had power weapons in melee it made Mutilators almost 100% redundant.
When Iron Warriors are a thing again you'll likely see more spice for them.
Obliterators are the big one, just because it was a pointless nerf to a unit that wasn't even that powerful for its points, that removed the whole point of fielding in the first place. Meanwhile a unit like the Riptide got costed upwards to impracticality, but it at least got to keep its Nova Reactor mechanic and play like it did.
Obliterators are as they are, because they need to exist without consuming some other unit entirely. When they had power weapons in melee it made Mutilators almost 100% redundant.
When Iron Warriors are a thing again you'll likely see more spice for them.
Mutilators took an Elite slot and had a Chainfist option; worst comes to worst, they were a cheap objective capper that took more shooting to clear than they were already worth (think Tyrant Guard in Incidentally, they also got the nerfbat due to random melee profiles and losing the option to be fielded as solos.
It still doesn't excuse Obliterators losing the ability to choose their gun. You know, the whole purpose of fielding Obliterators in the first place over a more cost-effective option (Havocs in 6th and 7th, Autolas Predators in 5th).
Martel732 wrote: The solo thing was abusive, imo. BA terminators would have been viable if I could field them solo as well. I just overwhelm my opponent with targets.
Having played Deathwatch in 7th where I could field them solo I think you may be overestimating how useful that actually was.
Martel732 wrote: Well, scatterbike units would only be able to kill one dude at a time. Sounds good to me.
Yup. And scatterbikes came in 81pt pods of three. You were never throwing the firepower from one big unit at something, you were combining fire from a whole bunch of minimum-size units for the exact same reason you're suggesting taking single Terminators. You've presented not even a fraction of a speedbump to scatterbikes.
(Might be more of a speedbump to Riptides given that you can keep them all 3" away from each other and the large blast can only hit one, though.)
Maybe that wouldn't have been the best, but it would have been great vs Riptides.
With the multilator, there was the chance that 3 scatterbikes didn't get it done, so you end having to shoot 6 at one model. I still think that's a win.
This was how Lictorshame worked in the early half of 40k. One unit shoots at one unit and there's no reward for overkill. Did you really want to have a 140-point Wave Serpent shoot at a 50-point Stealth model that would just Go to Ground only to become Fearless next turn due to Synapse bubble shenanigans? Or did you want to shoot a 15-point Mucoloid Spore? They're all coming for you at once so decide fast!
And with global Split Fire in 8th that strategy doesn't really work. I don't have to commit my entire Predator to shooting an eight-point Acolyte, just one of the sponson heavy bolters.
(Acolytes might be a bad example, at three wounds apeice they take way more than eight points of fire to drop...)
Martel732 wrote: So how much are they really nerfed? We'll have to see i think.
Oh, Obliterators specifically? I'm working on the math, but since there are 180 target cases (six relevant T values, six relevant armour save values, five relevant invulnerable save values) and 27 Obliterator weapon possibilities it's taking a while.
(Instinct from weapon stats says that an Obliterator squad is approximately equivalent to a Leman Russ with around double the firepower, but having seen the Russ in action I'm not sure how much of a complement that is, and the math may demonstrate that there are competing units that are better.)
Wolfblade wrote: The 7th ed Manticore? It's OK, but the 36" min range REALLY hurts it.
You may want to check out the 8th edition manticores when you get the chance.
Imho, they are overpowered.
I have.
They're okay. I was expecting more. They got nerfed too, from 1D3 5" S10 AP3 blasts [which can average a nice big number of hits on Fire Warrior unit, and also cripple the Pathfinders next to them and make the Hammerhead behind them jink], to basically plinking 2 guys or mildly annoying a tank. At least they're 133 points instead of 170.
Conscripts are better at killing infantry. Conscripts are better at most things, actually.
On this topic, I have just made myself a spreadsheet for calculating a rough estimate of unit efficiency to compare the performance/cost of different units to each other. It calculates expected wounds given to MEQ, TEQ, and IEQ with up to two different weapons; expected casualties taken at the hands of a squad of each of those with one special or heavy weapon in each, and gives a relative efficiency rating by subtracting casualties taken from wounds given and dividing that number by the points per model. So far I haven't come up with a good way to represent things like invulnerable saves, so it doesn't take those into account. Nor does it account for move distances or special rules, which will obviously add a lot of value to a unit. It just gives a general picture of combat efficiency for a given unit across a small range of enemy types. If you want you can test assault units by treating their attacks as weapons.
It tests against three different squads:
10 Tactical Marines with 9 Bolters and 1 Plasma Gun
5 Terminators with 4 Storm Bolters and 1 Assault Cannon
10 IG Infantry with 9 Lasguns and 1 Plasma Gun
I've had some interesting takeaways so far, namely that there is a sweet spot for points cost, volume of fire, and weapon capabilities. For example, the top unit I've tested so far is a bike squad with three members and two Melta Guns. They have the capability to reliably cause wounds, two different weapons they can fire and good durability at a cost of about 42 ppm. The worst unit tested so far is a squad of 20 Conscripts at 3 ppm. You would think they'd get a higher score because of how cheap they are but they can't cause wounds and they take massive casualties. Other standouts are a ten-man TAC squad with one Plasma Gun at 14.3 ppm, which scores almost twice as high as a squad of five Intercessors; and Inceptor squads, which have an extremely high volume of fire along with great durability even though they are very expensive at 75 ppm.
1. Whoever brought up wyverns is in for serious disappointment. Wyverns are practically useless against MEQs in cover. You'll be lucky to kill a five man squad in the course of a game. You'll average 7 hits, 3.5 wounds and a little more than half of an unsaved wound per turn.
2. I can demonstrate mathematically that manticores in 8th edition are OP.
In the course of 4 rounds of shooting, 2 manticores are all but gauranteed to kill an IK, a wraithknight or a landraider (both of which cost much more than 2 manticores).
A single manticore is also essentially guaranteed to wipe a squad of terminators out of cover (or power armored marines in cover) in the course of a game.
Likewise, it's basically guaranteed to kill at least 7 SM bikers over the course of a game.
In my view, the problems with the 8th edition manticore:
1. S10, AP -2 makes the manticore good against basically any target. It's wounding T6-9 on 3s and T 1-5 on 2s.
2. It's always going to be guaranteed an optimal target, because 120 inches is essentially the entire table. And it doesn't need line of sight.
Saying "but it only has four shots" isn't really an answer. Unless your opponent is spamming non-elite infantry, the manticore doesn't really need more than 4 shots. And even then, that's why you bring wyverns.
Another problem with the manticore is the severe nerf to deepstrike. If the IG opponent is any good, your chances of ever reaching that manticore are fairly slim. That conscript blob isn't going to break unless you've brought snipers en masse.
In brief:
Manticores are OP because they are: 1. too cheap for what they do, 2. too optimal against all non-elite opponents and 3. don't need to maneuver at all. The 120 inch range and (essentially) barrage special rule allows them to hit whatever they want without needing to move.
In order for manticores to be balanced in 8th, at least two out of three things need to happen:
1. manticores need to experience an increase in points cost, 2. a decrease in range and 3. need to lose the barrage special rule.
I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.
Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.
Luciferian wrote: On this topic, I have just made myself a spreadsheet for calculating a rough estimate of unit efficiency to compare the performance/cost of different units to each other. It calculates expected wounds given to MEQ, TEQ, and IEQ with up to two different weapons; expected casualties taken at the hands of a squad of each of those with one special or heavy weapon in each, and gives a relative efficiency rating by subtracting casualties taken from wounds given and dividing that number by the points per model. So far I haven't come up with a good way to represent things like invulnerable saves, so it doesn't take those into account. Nor does it account for move distances or special rules, which will obviously add a lot of value to a unit. It just gives a general picture of combat efficiency for a given unit across a small range of enemy types. If you want you can test assault units by treating their attacks as weapons.
It tests against three different squads:
10 Tactical Marines with 9 Bolters and 1 Plasma Gun
5 Terminators with 4 Storm Bolters and 1 Assault Cannon
10 IG Infantry with 9 Lasguns and 1 Plasma Gun
I've had some interesting takeaways so far, namely that there is a sweet spot for points cost, volume of fire, and weapon capabilities. For example, the top unit I've tested so far is a bike squad with three members and two Melta Guns. They have the capability to reliably cause wounds, two different weapons they can fire and good durability at a cost of about 42 ppm. The worst unit tested so far is a squad of 20 Conscripts at 3 ppm. You would think they'd get a higher score because of how cheap they are but they can't cause wounds and they take massive casualties. Other standouts are a ten-man TAC squad with one Plasma Gun at 14.3 ppm, which scores almost twice as high as a squad of five Intercessors; and Inceptor squads, which have an extremely high volume of fire along with great durability even though they are very expensive at 75 ppm.
Feel free to plug different units into it to compare, and share your results.
How are conscripts that bad?
Big blob o' Conscripts averages more wounds per turn against all targets than any kind of Leman Russ Tank, or a Manticore.
Conscripts Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 7 kills
Conscripts Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 4 wounds
Leman Russ Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 1 kill
Leman Russ Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 1.5 wound
Manticore Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 2 kills
Manticore Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 2.3 wounds
Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
A manticore basically is armed with the equivalent of 3.5 lascannons. Except those lascannons don't need LoS and can hit whatever they want on the table. And instead of dealing 1d6 damage to one target, each lascannon can instead opt to deal 1d3 damage each to two models in a unit, or else, 2d3 to one model in a unit.
And for the laugh, a manticore gets one more wound than a rhino. Because why not?
Again, for what it does, the manticore is too cheap.
I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++
Big blob o' Conscripts averages more wounds per turn against all targets than any kind of Leman Russ Tank, or a Manticore.
Conscripts Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 7 kills
Conscripts Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 4 wounds
Leman Russ Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 1 kill
Leman Russ Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 1.5 wound
Manticore Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 2 kills
Manticore Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 2.3 wounds
Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
Conscripts receive a low score because on average they take more casualties than they cause.
I have for 20 Conscripts:
Expected wounds caused
MEQ - 0.739851408
TEQ - 0.3701478816
IEQ - 2.221776
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
Do you want to see the math?
2d6 shots per turn averages to 7 shots per turn. 7 shots over the course of 4 turns is 28 shots. Assuming 4+ to hit, that averages to 14 successful hits. Furthermore, the average damage on a 1d3 roll is a 2. Here's my math for each of the targets:
IKs and wraithknights:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 112/9, or about 12 wounds. Multiply by 2 manticores, and that's a dead IK or wraithknight.
Landraider:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 28/3, or a little over 9 wounds. Multiply by two, and that's a dead landraider.
TEQs outside of cover:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves = 5. Take into account the average 2 damage, and that's a dead terminator squad.
Bikes:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 2/3 chances to bypass saves = 70/9. Take into account the average 2 wounds, and that's about 7 SM bikes.
A manticore basically is armed with the equivalent of 3.5 lascannons. Except those lascannons don't need LoS and can hit whatever they want on the table. And instead of dealing 1d6 damage to one target, each lascannon can instead opt to deal 1d3 damage each to two models in a unit, or else, 2d3 to one model in a unit.
For equal points, you can get about 5.5 lascannons in HWS. Sidestepping the fact that lascannons are probably still slightly better overall due to superior AP (I kinda want to see the math of how you're comparing the two) do you think the extras are worth the loss of the extra 2 lascannons worth of damage? Your comments appear to suggest it overwhelmingly is.
Galas wrote: Conscripts are 3ppm and are... meatshields. They SHOULD cause less casualties than they take
Conscripts' damage is irrelevant. That's not why you take conscripts. You take conscripts to build an unbreakable wall between your opponent and the stuff that you actually care about. Why unbreakable? Because that commissar which you've put next to those conscripts is limiting morale losses to 1 model per phase.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
Do you want to see the math?
2d6 shots per turn averages to 7 shots per turn. 7 shots over the course of 4 turns is 28 shots. Assuming 4+ to hit, that averages to 14 successful hits. Furthermore, the average damage on a 1d3 roll is a 2. Here's my math for each of the targets:
IKs and wraithknights:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 112/9, or about 12 wounds. Multiply by 2 manticores, and that's a dead IK or wraithknight.
Landraider:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 28/3, or a little over 9 wounds. Multiply by two, and that's a dead landraider.
TEQs outside of cover:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves = 5. Take into account the average 2 damage, and that's a dead terminator squad.
Bikes:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 2/3 chances to bypass saves = 70/9. Take into account the average 2 wounds, and that's about 7 SM bikes.
Tacticals shows how many tactical-marine equivalents it kills.
Rhino shows how many wounds it puts on a Rhino-equivalent [T7, Sv. 3+] tank.
Vertical axis is percent chance of a given result.
Basically, it looks like 133 points to me. You'll run out of tactical marines around the same time it runs out of missiles. Which is honestly depressing, because if it spends it's whole game trying to kill a tactical squad, why did I bring it in the first place?
Right now, I can count on my Manticores to erase Tau Fire Warriors, Necron Warriors, and Ork Battlewagons. In 8e the thing isn't going to manage half that.
Galas wrote: Conscripts are 3ppm and are... meatshields. They SHOULD cause less casualties than they take
Conscripts' damage is irrelevant. That's not why you take conscripts. You take conscripts to build an unbreakable wall between your opponent and the stuff that you actually care about. Why unbreakable? Because that commissar which you've put next to those conscripts is limiting morale losses to 1 model per phase.
Unbreakable as long as your opponent doesn't have many Assault Cannons
Galas wrote: Conscripts are 3ppm and are... meatshields. They SHOULD cause less casualties than they take
Conscripts' damage is irrelevant. That's not why you take conscripts. You take conscripts to build an unbreakable wall between your opponent and the stuff that you actually care about. Why unbreakable? Because that commissar which you've put next to those conscripts is limiting morale losses to 1 model per phase.
...which is why sniper rifles were changed to actually act like sniper rifles.
Galas wrote: Conscripts are 3ppm and are... meatshields. They SHOULD cause less casualties than they take
Conscripts' damage is irrelevant. That's not why you take conscripts. You take conscripts to build an unbreakable wall between your opponent and the stuff that you actually care about. Why unbreakable? Because that commissar which you've put next to those conscripts is limiting morale losses to 1 model per phase.
Unbreakable as long as your opponent doesn't have many Assault Cannons
Or flamers, any significant number of small arms, a leaf blower...
Big blob o' Conscripts averages more wounds per turn against all targets than any kind of Leman Russ Tank, or a Manticore.
Conscripts Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 7 kills
Conscripts Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 4 wounds
Leman Russ Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 1 kill
Leman Russ Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 1.5 wound
Manticore Vs. T4, Sv3+ ~ 2 kills
Manticore Vs. T7, Sv3+ ~ 2.3 wounds
Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
Conscripts receive a low score because on average they take more casualties than they cause.
I have for 20 Conscripts:
Expected wounds caused
MEQ - 0.739851408
TEQ - 0.3701478816
IEQ - 2.221776
Ah, you're using 20 conscripts unsupported, I'm using 50 with FRF/SRF.
Yeah, I'm trying to stick to minimum squad sizes just to have a frame of reference for relative ratings, but obviously the more of something you have in a unit the better value you're getting per model. That goes for anything. What are FRF and SRF? I can see how much better they do under those conditions.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Also, Traditio, you have no idea what you're talking about. Give me ten minutes, and I will produce a detailed display of what a 8e Manticore will do each turn.
Do you want to see the math?
2d6 shots per turn averages to 7 shots per turn. 7 shots over the course of 4 turns is 28 shots. Assuming 4+ to hit, that averages to 14 successful hits. Furthermore, the average damage on a 1d3 roll is a 2. Here's my math for each of the targets:
IKs and wraithknights:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 112/9, or about 12 wounds. Multiply by 2 manticores, and that's a dead IK or wraithknight.
Landraider:
14/1 hits X 2/3 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves X 2/1 for average damage = 28/3, or a little over 9 wounds. Multiply by two, and that's a dead landraider.
TEQs outside of cover:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 1/2 chance to bypass saves = 5. Take into account the average 2 damage, and that's a dead terminator squad.
Bikes:
14/1 hits X 5/6 chance to wound X 2/3 chances to bypass saves = 70/9. Take into account the average 2 wounds, and that's about 7 SM bikes.
Sounds Terrifying..... except that Imperial Knight kills a Manticore in Round 1, same with Landraiders now... LR could even kill both Manticores in 1 turn.
Katherine, would you be interested in sharing that sheet? I'd be interested in having a look at it. I'm not questioning your math; it just looks impressive.
Also, if not, can you run the name numbers, but with 6 lascannons (at BS 4+) for comparison?
The problem with looking at the expected damage roll of 2 on a 1D3 against terminators (or models with a wound total 2+) is that, yeah, you'll see it average out over time, however, the order matters.
Consider 2 1D3 damage rolls against 2 terminators. The expected value of each roll is 2, so you'd think you're safe concluding that the expected dead terminators is 2. But that's not right.
1, 3 => 1 terminator dead
3, 1 => 1 terminator dead
2, 3 => 2 terminator dead
3, 2 => 2 terminator dead
1, 2 => 1 terminator dead
2, 1 => 1 terminator dead
1, 1 => 1 terminator dead
2, 2 => 2 terminator dead
3, 3 => 2 terminator dead
Each probability is equally likely, at 1/9.
In this very simple case, the "expected" wounds per D3 is 2, however the expected dead terminators is 1.45.
daedalus wrote:For equal points, you can get about 5.5 lascannons in HWS. Sidestepping the fact that lascannons are probably still slightly better overall due to superior AP (I kinda want to see the math of how you're comparing the two) do you think the extras are worth the loss of the extra 2 lascannons worth of damage? Your comments appear to suggest it overwhelmingly is.
The superior AP doesn't help as much as you think it would. Here's the math for 5 lascannons over the course of 7 turns:
Note in advance my assumption that the average damage for a 1d6 roll is 3.5 damage.
35/1 shots X 1/2 chance to hit = 35/2 hits
IKs and Wraithknights (assuming a 5+ invuln):
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 245/9, or a little better than 27 unsaved wounds.
Landraiders:
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 5/6 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is almost 34 unsaved wounds.
Terminators:
35/2 chance to hit X 5/6 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is almost 34 unsaved wounds.
SM bikes:
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 5/6 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is, again almost 34 unsaved wounds.
I'm aware that looks like a lot, but understand that, for this math to work, the following conditions have to obtain:
1. The lascannons have to take zero casualties.
2. The lascannons have to have line of sight for every shot.
3. The lascannons have to be in range for every shot.
In fact, those assumptions are unreasonable. What's actually going to happen is that your HWTs are going to get assassinated in fairly short order.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote:Sounds Terrifying..... except that Imperial Knight kills a Manticore in Round 1, same with Landraiders now... LR could even kill both Manticores in 1 turn.
No, they don't. In order for the IK or the landraider to kill the manticore, two conditions have to obtain:
1. The IK and landraider must have LoS
and
2. The IK and landraider must be within range either to fire ranged weapons or charge.
Given the IG army as a whole, both of those are unreasonable assumptions.
Ah, you're using 20 conscripts unsupported, I'm using 50 with FRF/SRF.
Yeah, I'm trying to stick to minimum squad sizes just to have a frame of reference for relative ratings, but obviously the more of something you have in a unit the better value you're getting per model. That goes for anything. What are FRF and SRF? I can see how much better they do under those conditions.
FRFSRF is an order that makes lasguns rapid fire 2.
Marmatag wrote:Consider 2 1D3 damage rolls against 2 terminators. The expected value of each roll is 2, so you'd think you're safe concluding that the expected dead terminators is 2. But that's not right.
Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.
Ah, you're using 20 conscripts unsupported, I'm using 50 with FRF/SRF.
Yeah, I'm trying to stick to minimum squad sizes just to have a frame of reference for relative ratings, but obviously the more of something you have in a unit the better value you're getting per model. That goes for anything. What are FRF and SRF? I can see how much better they do under those conditions.
FRF/SRF doubles gun output. 4 shots at 12", 2 shots at 24".
daedalus wrote:Katherine, would you be interested in sharing that sheet? I'd be interested in having a look at it. I'm not questioning your math; it just looks impressive.
Also, if not, can you run the name numbers, but with 6 lascannons (at BS 4+) for comparison?
It's actually about 10 different excel files. It works by simulating an attack a couple thousand times, then totaling up the results.
The terminator number I represented isn't entirely precise, because terminator would allocation is weird.
Ah, you're using 20 conscripts unsupported, I'm using 50 with FRF/SRF.
Yeah, I'm trying to stick to minimum squad sizes just to have a frame of reference for relative ratings, but obviously the more of something you have in a unit the better value you're getting per model. That goes for anything. What are FRF and SRF? I can see how much better they do under those conditions.
FRFSRF is an order that makes lasguns rapid fire 2.
OK, with 50 models and 2 shots per model they become the second most efficient unit I've tested. Just goes to show how certain models should be played to suit their potentials and weaknesses.
Edit - scrap that, I was off a decimal place. They become the most efficient unit by almost ten times!
Marmatag wrote:Consider 2 1D3 damage rolls against 2 terminators. The expected value of each roll is 2, so you'd think you're safe concluding that the expected dead terminators is 2. But that's not right.
Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.
Ah, you're using 20 conscripts unsupported, I'm using 50 with FRF/SRF.
Yeah, I'm trying to stick to minimum squad sizes just to have a frame of reference for relative ratings, but obviously the more of something you have in a unit the better value you're getting per model. That goes for anything. What are FRF and SRF? I can see how much better they do under those conditions.
FRFSRF is an order that makes lasguns rapid fire 2.
OK, with 50 models and 2 shots per model they become the second most efficient unit I've tested. Just goes to show how certain models should be played to suit their potentials and weaknesses.
And then double that at half range and watch the fun begin!
Luciferian wrote: OK, with 50 models and 2 shots per model they become the second most efficient unit I've tested. Just goes to show how certain models should be played to suit their potentials and weaknesses.
You doing rapid fire range too? That would be 4 shots each.
Edit: Although getting 50 models within 12" is not easy.
I was wrong about the Conscripts being second place, 3 Bikes with 2x Melta Guns has a rating of 0.193, and 50 Conscripts with two shots each has a rating of 1.855!
daedalus wrote:For equal points, you can get about 5.5 lascannons in HWS. Sidestepping the fact that lascannons are probably still slightly better overall due to superior AP (I kinda want to see the math of how you're comparing the two) do you think the extras are worth the loss of the extra 2 lascannons worth of damage? Your comments appear to suggest it overwhelmingly is.
The superior AP doesn't help as much as you think it would. Here's the math for 5 lascannons over the course of 7 turns:
Note in advance my assumption that the average damage for a 1d6 roll is 3.5 damage.
35/1 shots X 1/2 chance to hit = 35/2 hits
IKs and Wraithknights (assuming a 5+ invuln):
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 245/9, or a little better than 27 unsaved wounds.
Landraiders:
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 5/6 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is almost 34 unsaved wounds.
Terminators:
35/2 chance to hit X 5/6 chance to wound X 2/3 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is almost 34 unsaved wounds.
SM bikes:
35/2 chance to hit X 2/3 chance to wound X 5/6 chance to bypass saves X 7/2 average damage = 1225/36, which is, again almost 34 unsaved wounds.
I'm aware that looks like a lot, but understand that, for this math to work, the following conditions have to obtain:
1. The lascannons have to take zero casualties.
2. The lascannons have to have line of sight for every shot.
3. The lascannons have to be in range for every shot.
In fact, those assumptions are unreasonable. What's actually going to happen is that your HWTs are going to get assassinated in fairly short order.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote:Sounds Terrifying..... except that Imperial Knight kills a Manticore in Round 1, same with Landraiders now... LR could even kill both Manticores in 1 turn.
No, they don't. In order for the IK or the landraider to kill the manticore, two conditions have to obtain:
1. The IK and landraider must have LoS
and
2. The IK and landraider must be within range either to fire ranged weapons or charge.
Given the IG army as a whole, both of those are unreasonable assumptions.
You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds. If that happens, on a 5+ it will only score 2.33 hits, which will deal 4.66 wounds (before any saves). Obviously a 6+ is even worse bring hits down to 1.166 and only 3.32 wounds before saves. Sure the manticore has the potential to be devastating, but with only T7 and 11 wounds, it's not exactly the pinnacle of durability. If anything I'd be more worried about the deathstrike dealing 3D6 (an average of 10.5) mortal wounds to a unit (and not to wound roll required), plus an extra D3 to any unit within 6" of the first on a 4+. That's almost enough to cripple an IK (short by 1.5 wounds) Neither are super broken, but personally I'd rather have the deathstrike simply because as long as it stays on the table for turn it fires for full effect instead of having to stick around for 4 turns. Overall, I'd be more worried about a nid player with those genestealers and cheap, but very effective carnifexes. (Not that I begrudge nids their time in the spot light after the trainwreck that was atleast 5th through 7th)
Marmatag wrote: I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++
IMHO Space Marines got better if you wheren't running one of the brokenly abused formations
Azreal13 wrote: I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.
Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.
See, i'm more the opposite. I was thinking about posting a thread in the nuts & bolts section of the forum to have an additional special thread: view recent threads, view popular threads & view traditio threads.
All we need is bill cosby, and we can have: traditio says the darndest things.
I'm aware that looks like a lot, but understand that, for this math to work, the following conditions have to obtain:
1. The lascannons have to take zero casualties.
2. The lascannons have to have line of sight for every shot.
3. The lascannons have to be in range for every shot.
In fact, those assumptions are unreasonable. What's actually going to happen is that your HWTs are going to get assassinated in fairly short order.
Your math plays out like I would expect it to, so I think it comes down to the base assumptions.
1. This is entirely fair to argue. The lascannoners will lose efficiency, and they'll do it damn quick. A lot of my consideration for that initial punch of the lascannons lies in the assumption that they'll be mostly intact by my first attack, and then understand there'll be diminishing returns thereafter. I can fully concede that the Manticore will have more consistent results through the game due to staying power. As a philosophy, I would rather front-load my damage in the hopes of minimizing the opportunity for return fire than strive for consistent damage throughout the game. Even if the Manticore can more reliably have something dead by turn 4, that's still 4 turns of putting up with it being on the table. So then comes the calculated risk of tailoring to have it dead by turn 2 as opposed to turn 4, and what the consequences for failure are (that last part being a holistic list building situation, not necessarily a question to you).
2. Given the current ruleset (unless I missed something pivotal somewhere) I'm going to assume I practically always have LoS to at least one part of a unit barring something like a very dense urban board, and even then i feel like the ones I play on usually have some windows somewhere. And that's several years of experience at Adepticon in addition to local/regional games. I think it's unfair to assume that an IK will ever be hidden trivially.
3. This is kind of a mixed thing for me. It's not often that I've run into issues with 48" range though, so it's not a personal concern. I can certainly see edge cases where it would make a difference, and I've used my basilisks to that advantage before.
I still don't agree with you that it's an "overpowered" unit, but I'll certainly concede that it's better than I previously believed it was. I imagine I'll run my two and see if they wind up being as useful to me in practice as they are in theory.
Wolfblade wrote:You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn
It is safe to assume that the IG player will not get first turn, unless he's running tank spam.
and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds.
If the IG player is even halfway decent at the game, the only way that's going to happen is if his opponent is himself running manticores (or equivalents).
Wolfblade wrote:You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn
It is safe to assume that the IG player will not get first turn, unless he's running tank spam.
and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds.
If the IG player is even halfway decent at the game, the only way that's going to happen is if his opponent is himself running manticores (or equivalents).
Hahahaha.... I'm halfway decent at this game, and I can kill a manticore easily.
I will say, my "competitive" list absolutely tears less competitive lists apart. It's supposed to, and it should. I've been assembling and revising it since the last codex came out, and before that. But if I bring it up against the most competitive lists the Tau or Necrons or Space Marines or hell, even the Tyranids can field, I just sort of roll over and die.
Wolfblade wrote:You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn
It is safe to assume that the IG player will not get first turn, unless he's running tank spam.
and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds.
If the IG player is even halfway decent at the game, the only way that's going to happen is if his opponent is himself running manticores (or equivalents).
Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.
Wolfblade wrote:Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.
A lot of this depends on the table. What is likely to happen is that there's going to be a conscript line at the front of the deployment zone, and the manticore is going to be somewhere in the backfield, safely hidden away behind an LoS blocking terrain piece.
Unless the IG player is running tank spam, deepstrike isn't really an immediate threat because of the way that the IG army works as a whole.
Again, yes, indirect fire is a definite threat to the manticore, but even then, we are still talking about a T7, 3+ save model,
The only thing in the SM codex I can think of that would pose a threat to the manticore on turn 1 is a thunderfire cannon, and even then, the threat would be minimal.
Wolfblade wrote:You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn
It is safe to assume that the IG player will not get first turn, unless he's running tank spam.
and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds.
If the IG player is even halfway decent at the game, the only way that's going to happen is if his opponent is himself running manticores (or equivalents).
Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close.
heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)
expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.
BrianDavion wrote:heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)
expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.
Again, you're failing to take into account the fact that the manticore doesn't need LoS.
You simply cannot assume that you'll be able to draw line of sight to the manticore on turn 1, even if you deepstrike.
Traditio wrote: Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.
Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.
Wolfblade wrote:Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.
A lot of this depends on the table. What is likely to happen is that there's going to be a conscript line at the front of the deployment zone, and the manticore is going to be somewhere in the backfield, safely hidden away behind an LoS blocking terrain piece.
Unless the IG player is running tank spam, deepstrike isn't really an immediate threat because of the way that the IG army works as a whole.
Again, yes, indirect fire is a definite threat to the manticore, but even then, we are still talking about a T7, 3+ save model,
The only thing in the SM codex I can think of that would pose a threat to the manticore on turn 1 is a thunderfire cannon, and even then, the threat would be minimal.
BrianDavion wrote:heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)
expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.
Again, you're failing to take into account the fact that the manticore doesn't need LoS.
You simply cannot assume that you'll be able to draw line of sight to the manticore on turn 1, even if you deepstrike.
But you can assume we'll never be able to get LoS to it, terrain will ALWAYS favor the manticore with a nice LoS blocking bit in a corner, got it.
Peregrine wrote:Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.
This isn't in and of itself problematic. The problem is that 1. the manticore doesn't actually pay the appropriate points cost for its combined durability, mobility and shooting capabilities and 2. the only way to counter-play with terminators is not deploying them in the first place.
If the manticore couldn't ignore LoS, I likely wouldn't be talking about how OP it is. It would still be too good for its points, but the combination of 120 inch range AND ignoring LoS makes it over the top OP.
Traditio wrote: Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.
Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.
Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.
Luciferian wrote:Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.
Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.
Luciferian wrote:Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.
Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.
Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.
If anything, I'd still be more worried about genestealers and deepstriking carnifexes. For 87pt you get one carnifex that fires 12 S7 AP-1 D1 shots at 18" )and 5 attacks at S6), 5 attacks at S6, rerolling 1s on a 4+ to hit dealing 3 damage at AP-3, or for 97pt, 5 attacks at S12 hitting on a 5+ at AP-3 and 3 damage. AND they DO NOT get less effective the fewer wounds they have left.
Luciferian wrote:Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.
Did you see the math?
Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."
Wolfblade wrote: If anything, I'd still be more worried about genestealers and deepstriking carnifexes. For 87pt you get one carnifex that fires 12 S7 AP-1 D1 shots at 18", 5 attacks at S6, rerolling 1s on a 4+ to hit, or for 97pt, 5 attacks at S12 hitting on a 5+.
Yeah, that's way undercosted compared to other walkers.
Traditio wrote: Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.
When firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators, maybe breaking even on its point cost, I'm not really impressed. It's a good unit, sure, but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP. If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.
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Traditio wrote: Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."
IF IT SURVIVES FOR AN ENTIRE GAME. Deep strike and damage it so that it doesn't hit on a 4+ anymore? Less damage. Charge it and lock it in melee before it can fire all four rockets? Less damage. You're comparing absolutely ideal numbers for the Manticore and getting damage that isn't even all that impressive, and you still whine that it's OP because it can kill your space marines. Your blatant bias in favor of your own army is ridiculous.
Wolfblade wrote:Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.
A lot of this depends on the table. What is likely to happen is that there's going to be a conscript line at the front of the deployment zone, and the manticore is going to be somewhere in the backfield, safely hidden away behind an LoS blocking terrain piece.
Unless the IG player is running tank spam, deepstrike isn't really an immediate threat because of the way that the IG army works as a whole.
Again, yes, indirect fire is a definite threat to the manticore, but even then, we are still talking about a T7, 3+ save model,
The only thing in the SM codex I can think of that would pose a threat to the manticore on turn 1 is a thunderfire cannon, and even then, the threat would be minimal.
Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators
Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?
but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.
It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.
Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.
If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.
Like what?
This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.
Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators
Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?
but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.
It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.
Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.
If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.
Like what?
This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.
Your "normal" composition and everyone else's is WAY different. As for counters, what about the SM flyers? they have the movement range, and the stormraven should have the damage to knock some wounds off it so it isn't hitting on a 4+ anymore.
Luciferian wrote:Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.
Did you see the math?
Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."
So what? Even if it comes out ahead we're talking maybe 50-100 points difference, which I would be annoyed with if someone fielded one against me, but I would hardly blame for swinging the game if I ended up losing. If one or two models' worth of points loses you the game you probably are making other mistakes to begin with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?
Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.
If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).
Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.
Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.
Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.
If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.
Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators
Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?
but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.
It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.
Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.
If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.
Like what?
This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.
I can name you 5 things in the Space Marines army list that are, in fact, a significant threat to a Manticore assuming standard IG list composition:
Vindicator
Devastators
Anyone equipped with an AT weapon riding in a Razorback
Anyone equipped with an AT weapon riding in a Drop Pod
Anyone with Jump Pack
Traditio wrote: If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).
Then you need to count the cost of those meatshields in the price of the Manticore, since they'll be sitting in the corner behind LOS-blocking terrain and unable to do anything besides protect the Manticore. And at that point you can just ignore the Manticore fortress, it kills some models but your opponent invested so much in it that you probably come out ahead.
Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.
So put them in pods. You have 48" heavy weapons that still fire at BS 3 when you pod in, and I'm incredibly skeptical of the idea that your opponent can wall off an entire 48" bubble around the Manticore where you can't pod in a dev squad.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?
Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.
If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).
Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.
Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.
Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.
If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.
I'm not sure what I'm missing here:
Last I checked, the board was 72" by 48", which is in fact short enough for your Devastators to reach my Manticore.
Also, last I checked, terrain pieces are placed in alternating order more than 6" from the board edge and more than 12" from any other terrain item. Also, most terrain pieces are modeled with windows. I'm not exactly seeing how the Devastators can't reach the Manticore.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?
Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.
If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).
Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.
Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.
Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.
If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.
I'm not sure what I'm missing here:
Last I checked, the board was 72" by 48", which is in fact short enough for your Devastators to reach my Manticore.
Also, last I checked, terrain pieces are placed in alternating order more than 6" from the board edge and more than 12" from any other terrain item. Also, most terrain pieces are modeled with windows. I'm not exactly seeing how the Devastators can't reach the Manticore.
Peregrine, Wolfblade and Inquisitor Lord Katherine:
You know what? Fine. Let me give myself optimal conditions. We are playing with literally no terrain. The table is completely flat.
Here's how drop pod devastators would play out:
I drop my devastators. What are they armed with?
Multimeltas? Great. I don't have melta range, because, if you know what's good for you, you have conscripts.
For the math below, I don't even bother adding in the sergeant's boltgun.
When the math is all done, I deal roughly 4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using lascannons? Great. I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using missile launchers? I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using plasma cannons? Let's suppose I supercharge them. I deal roughly 4-6 wounds to the manticore...and one of the plasma cannon marines dies because his gun overheated.
Am I using gravcannons? That's about 6 wounds.
And then the next turn, that squad gets wiped.
Would you consider that a good trade?
No.
Now that deepstrike has been nerfed, barrage needs to die. It's that simple.
Marmatag wrote:Consider 2 1D3 damage rolls against 2 terminators. The expected value of each roll is 2, so you'd think you're safe concluding that the expected dead terminators is 2. But that's not right.
Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.
It's not lowballing the damage.
Against terminators, your possible damage rolls on a D3 are 1, 2, 2. Because you can't really score more than 2 damage anyway. So saying the expected value is 2 and therefore matches with the wound count of 2 is completely fallacious.
Pause for a moment and think about it. This isn't an argument you can win... it's math.
Against terminators, your possible damage rolls on a D3 are 1, 2, 2. Because you can't really score more than 2 damage anyway. So saying the expected value is 2 and therefore matches with the wound count of 2 is completely fallacious.
Pause for a moment and think about it. This isn't an argument you can win... it's math.
Of course you're correct about that. For any given d3 roll, there is a 1/3 chance of rolling a one, and a 2/3 chance of rolling a 2 or higher (and obviously, a 3 would be superfluous against terminators).
Out of 5 rolls, you are likely to end up with 1 or 2 results of 1 (which can be safely ignored as far as killing terminators go). That means an average result of 3-4 dead terminators.
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Luciferian wrote:So what? Even if it comes out ahead we're talking maybe 50-100 points difference, which I would be annoyed with if someone fielded one against me, but I would hardly blame for swinging the game if I ended up losing. If one or two models' worth of points loses you the game you probably are making other mistakes to begin with.
That's 50-100 points PER manticore.
That's a huge points difference, especially given the extremely limited options for counter-play.
Let's low-ball this and say that a manticore deals, on average, 50 points more than it "should." Great. That means that if you take 3, while we are technically supposed to be playing a 2000 points game, you've "actually" brought 2150 points to the table.
Melissia wrote: I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.
That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.
It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.
IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.
Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.
Wolves were tanking lasguns with a 2+ armor IC. Let's be real here.
Depends on the unit.
I should have specified but I was thinking about TWC when I made that statement, they're a unit of three - they have 3+ armour and 3++ invulnerable save.
daedalus wrote:1. This is entirely fair to argue. The lascannoners will lose efficiency, and they'll do it damn quick. A lot of my consideration for that initial punch of the lascannons lies in the assumption that they'll be mostly intact by my first attack,
You can't make that assumption. If you are playing foot IG, the overwhelming likelihood is that you are going second. And if I see tons of lascannon HWT hanging out all by themselves, you can imagine what's going to be among the top of my priorities for bombardment.
Seriously contemplate this point:
Do you realize how quickly HWTs die to krak missile fire?
I can fully concede that the Manticore will have more consistent results through the game due to staying power.
It's the difference between a T3, 2 wound, 5+ armor save infantry and a T7, 11 wound, 3+ armor save vehicle.
Point for point, the manticores are simply better.
They're more mobile. They're more durable. They have better range. And while they don't technically have better fire power under ideal conditions, they do have better fire power under normal, sustained conditions.
2. Given the current ruleset (unless I missed something pivotal somewhere) I'm going to assume I practically always have LoS to at least one part of a unit barring something like a very dense urban board, and even then i feel like the ones I play on usually have some windows somewhere. And that's several years of experience at Adepticon in addition to local/regional games. I think it's unfair to assume that an IK will ever be hidden trivially.
It depends. You are certainly going to be able to see the IK. But a landraider? Or a terminator squad? A lot of this depends on the terrain.
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Humble Guardsman wrote:It was at this precise moment that I realised I was reading satire.
It is an objective fact that deepstrike has been nerfed. Yes, it is much more reliable. Yes, scatter is no longer a thing.
But you have to ask yourself what the trade-off is.
The trade off is that it's now much more difficult to deepstrike into the opponent's backfield, and it is virtually impossible to do so if the opponent is playing foot IG.
Traditio wrote: Peregrine, Wolfblade and Inquisitor Lord Katherine:
You know what? Fine. Let me give myself optimal conditions. We are playing with literally no terrain. The table is completely flat.
Here's how drop pod devastators would play out:
I drop my devastators. What are they armed with?
Multimeltas? Great. I don't have melta range, because, if you know what's good for you, you have conscripts.
For the math below, I don't even bother adding in the sergeant's boltgun.
When the math is all done, I deal roughly 4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using lascannons? Great. I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using missile launchers? I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.
Am I using plasma cannons? Let's suppose I supercharge them. I deal roughly 4-6 wounds to the manticore...and one of the plasma cannon marines dies because his gun overheated.
Am I using gravcannons? That's about 6 wounds.
And then the next turn, that squad gets wiped.
Would you consider that a good trade?
No.
Now that deepstrike has been nerfed, barrage needs to die. It's that simple.
Deep strike wouldn't have got you into my gunbox under 7e rules, and won't get you inside my gunbox under 8e rules. I also have DesValle's Circle and Inquisitor Coteaz, to really make your deep-strikers stay away from my Basilisks.
Did you even bother to look at the charts I posted earlier?
No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.
Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.
Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.
Or, I can do even better:
Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.
Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.
Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.
Also, Traditio, our artillery have long had better firepower than their cost because the rest of our army has terrible firepower. The Basilisk is 125 points because guardsmen are crappy, so it needs to kill more points worth of stuff to make up for the things they aren't killing.
I'd like to point out that right now, in 7e, the Wyvern kills it's cost in enemy troops every turn [as long as it's alive and has things to shoot]. I'd also like to point out that a 170 point Manticore fails to do that.
There's also lots of counterplay to a Manticore or Basilisk being on the board.
First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.
Second off, move up. You shouldn't be able to beat us in a shooting war. That's supposed to be what we're good at. Maybe try putting your verastility to good use.
Third off, spread out. Don't bunch up, that's called a Template Rich Environment. When I see a bunch of guys base-to-base, I see an opportunity to take a big chunk out of your army.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.
1. Grey Hunters are not a vanilla SM unit.
2. Even if they were, that shouldn't happen. If I can get within 12 inches of your manticore via deepstrike, then either you are playing tank spam, or else, you've deployed incorrectly.
3. Did you see the math I did for the plasma cannons? Plasma guns aren't to fare better.
Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.
If they have range and LoS. If we are alternating deployments, why are you putting your manticores in range and LoS of my devastators?
Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.
How do you suppose I get them there?
Deepstrike?
Deploy in my own deployment zone and jump-pack my way across?
I don't think you are fully understanding just how amazing conscripts are in 8th edition.
Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.
Ok.
Let's assume I have a sarge with combiflamer, 3 marines with boltguns and a marine with a flamer.
Do you know how many conscripts that squad would kill? 5-6 conscripts. 1 more will likely die after being BLAM'ed by a commissar.
On the following turn, that squad gets wiped. They never come anywhere near your manticore.
Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.
Again, did you see the math I presented earlier?
Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.
Mathematically, none of these proposals work. Even I succeed in blowing up your manticore, the price that I pay in so doing is inevitably going to be in your favor.
First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.
What?
How is killing a landraider, an IK or a WK with two manticores "not killing tanks very well"?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.
1. Grey Hunters are not a vanilla SM unit.
2. Even if they were, that shouldn't happen. If I can get within 12 inches of your manticore via deepstrike, then either you are playing tank spam, or else, you've deployed incorrectly.
3. Did you see the math I did for the plasma cannons? Plasma guns aren't to fare better.
So? Are you trying to blow up or cripple my tank? Achieve this mission, and think about what my tank needs to do to achieve it's mission!
Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.
If they have range and LoS. If we are alternating deployments, why are you putting your manticores in range and LoS of my devastators?
Because there's only a couple of square inches of board space you can't hit, and you can wait until I put out my artillery to put out your devastators.
Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.
How do you suppose I get them there?
Deepstrike?
Deploy in my own deployment zone and jump-pack my way across?
I don't think you are fully understanding just how amazing conscripts are in 8th edition.
Oh, I know how amazing conscripts are. Jump pack your way across. That's what my Seraphim are going to do.
Or deep strike. Works too, but you've got to make a 9" charge. Drop in 9" from the conscripts, then charge them.
Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.
Ok.
Let's assume I have a sarge with combiflamer, 3 marines with boltguns and a marine with a flamer.
Do you know how many conscripts that squad would kill? 5-6 conscripts. 1 more will likely die after being BLAM'ed by a commissar.
On the following turn, that squad gets wiped. They never come anywhere near your manticore.
Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.
Again, did you see the math I presented earlier?
I see it, and it says I should keep my manticore away from your guys or find a way to dump the rockets faster.
Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.
Mathematically, none of these proposals work. Even I succeed in blowing up your manticore, the price that I pay in so doing is inevitably going to be in your favor.
Huh? Rolling up in Razorbacks works alarmingly well. They're good at killing conscripts with AC's, good at harassing tanks with Lascannons, and take more than their cost to blow up in one turn. How are razorbacks not OP?
First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.
What?
How is killing a landraider, an IK or a WK with two manticores "not killing tanks very well"?
Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.
If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.
Actually, I'm going second, because I have lots of things. If it can't remove your box of nasty from the board in my first turn, it's not good enough at killing tanks.
Look at it this way:
It takes 2 manticores to kill a rhino. at 133 points a manticore, that means that one other rhino full of guys made it through. That's not me winning, right there.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.
If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.
That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?
I don't know why Traditio is so scared of a manticore. Im pretty sure a 100 point squad of biovores supported by a single venomthrope would kill it in two or 3 turns. Biovores OP. Please give plastic kit, so I can spam. Astartes tears make excellent dipping sauce for progenoid glands.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.
If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.
That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?
That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.
We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.
If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.
That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?
That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.
We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.
That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.
If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.
That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?
That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.
We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.
That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."
I'd say its a bit early to start thinking about army "Tiers" especially since comparatively few people here have actually played the new edition and there haven't been any major tournaments for 8th yet. But from what I seen and discussed with my regular playing group, 8th Edition looks at this moment to be very balanced between the various armies.
Personally, I'm looking forward to a game where the core rules aren't a total mess and I don't get funny looks from people when I tell them I play Eldar. And as much as I enjoy the look and lore behind Dark Eldar, I would appreciate if they didn't suck so much thank you.
niv-mizzet wrote:Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.
Screening units are important, as is proper deployment, but I think mobility is going to be critical this edition too. Infiltrate and Deep Strike have changed enough to where they can totally alter the board state, arguably even more so than last edition. It seems like if you aren't aiming for a first-turn charge, you need to have some way of either kiting your enemy back&around the table edges or drop in/sneak up in their deployment zone.
Crimson Devil wrote:
daedalus wrote: I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.
It's mainly panic setting in for those that can't see how their army is going to rank in 8th. It's simply too early to know. If you look around there is a thread for every army with someone losing their gak over the new edition. In a couple of months we will have a better idea of where each army stands in the rankings, Once those handful of players that actually create the net lists do their thing.
From what I've seen of the Eldar codex, the most ridiculously OP things got toned down severely but Eldar are far from being bad. Battle Focus has been changed to make the army want to move much more aggressively, and the various Aspect Warriors are still quite capable at their jobs.
Wave Serpents are going to be scary. Eight S6 shots from a Twin Scatter Laser will be brutal, and with the standard loadout they won't have had as large of a price increase compared to other Transports.
Not entirely sold on Dire Avengers being 17ppm, but the 7" move+Battle Focus and the ability to Overwatch on a 5+ might compensate for that. I'll need to play with them myself to see, but I'm also not sold on them being useless.
Ubl1k wrote:The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't generic CSM gain the ability to join one of the "Legion" armies if they take a Mark for the respective Chaos God?
techsoldaten wrote: Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.
The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.
I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.
Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.
Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.
And that there is nothing anyone has picked out as "oh my god, that's ridiculously powerful." When the Eldar Codex came out, anyone could see that spamming bikes with the right loadout was going to be broken before playing a single game with it. There is nothing like that I've seen anyone bring up here so far.
Apart from the OP and Manticores, but fortunately nobody takes him seriously. If it isn't his exact army and balanced against his exact setup, it must be overpowered!
Azreal13 wrote:I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.
Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.
Quoted and Exalted for truth.
Marmatag wrote:I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++
Tau got toned down almost as much as certain Eldar units. See Stormsurge and Riptide base prices, along with the change to how Markerlights work.
If I'm reading this chart right with all the + and - the various armies might, for what may very well be the first time ever, be in a balanced state vs. each other.
Traditio wrote:That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."
You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.
It's why Tau haven't magically gained CC durability because they can now leave after the 1st round. You have to have models remaining in the unit for it to fall back.
Wave Serpents are going to be scary. Eight S6 shots from a Twin Scatter Laser will be brutal, and with the standard loadout they won't have had as large of a price increase compared to other Transports.
I would of thought it's going to be all about Tri Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents as they're assault, no ?
Ditto everyone ripping Scatters Lasers off their bikes to put Shuricannons on.
For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.
Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.
The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it
The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.
Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.
TheNewBlood wrote: I'd say its a bit early to start thinking about army "Tiers" especially since comparatively few people here have actually played the new edition and there haven't been any major tournaments for 8th yet. But from what I seen and discussed with my regular playing group, 8th Edition looks at this moment to be very balanced between the various armies.
The relative balance between units has changed, this is obvious. The most Over Powered stuff of 7th has been toned down a lot, that is without question. It seems that some people are sad because their 7th edition stuff of doom is not as crazy as it used to be and I can totally understand this.
From what I have seen it seems that battles in 8th edition are far more depending on player skill during the game than on list building. IMO in 7th the battle was decided before the game begun far too often.
Of course not everything is exactly balanced. As long as you are trying to achieve game balance by playtesting (and not by... say excessive computer simulations that run millions of games) you will never succeed.
But so far 8th seems indeed to be the most balanced edition of 40k ever (I admit that the bar is not high to achieve this, though)
Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.
GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.
Danny slag wrote: Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.
GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.
Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)
Marmatag wrote: I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++
I'm really curious how you came to these guesses? ...Specifically I'd like to know how you believe the Blood Angels increased "++"? ...they were a weak codex prior, that relied heavily on Drop-pods to compete at a lower tier, now they've essentially lost the drop-pods, gained in points and lost most of their special rules.
And Grey Knights "--"? ...they were a weak codex prior and have seen some minor improvement at least.
We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.
Considering how cheap heavy weapon teams are, IG can spam lascannons like no other army. You should be fine. If you aren't that means tanks are extremely hard to kill this edition, in which case you are also one of the best armies for spamming tanks.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?
Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.
If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).
Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.
Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.
Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.
I gotta agree with Tradition on this particular case, 133 points Manticores are broken for what they do, they should be priced appropriately (like 220 minimum considering they can fire behind a wall unpunished)
If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.
TheNewBlood wrote: You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.
Every Conscript squad is going to have a Commissar close to it. That limits battleshock to a maximum of 1 death. Sure, you can kill the Commissar in a variety of ways but it definitely makes the Conscripts better.
For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.
Danny slag wrote: Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.
GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.
Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)
Toning down one insanely OP thing per army, but making everything else across the board bettter, especially with being able to walk away from combat then shoot in the same turn, primary's marines, etc, doesn't really sound "worse." One thing per Amy may have gotten worse, everything else either staid the same or got better.
Conscripts seem to be the most scary thing to me - and other things like them. Big blobs of cheap effectively immune to morale infantry. Others are Ork Boys and Gaunts.
You can only kill so much and Battleshock is clearly the way to get past that - but every one of those has easy ways to make Battleshock not a factor. And even if you manage to remove those methods, 2CP can cover you for a critical turn easy enough.
Combine with objectives being controlled by who has the most models, or achieved by killing units? Much harder to kill 30 boys or 50 conscripts than it is to kill 5 dudes with special weapons.
Those with flying assault troops - or just flying guys in general may be able to get to Commissars easier. Boyz reinforce each other for morale though, and with Tyranid Warriors quite possibly being a lot better you may see quite a bit more gaunts and plenty of Synapse available.
We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.
Considering how cheap heavy weapon teams are, IG can spam lascannons like no other army. You should be fine. If you aren't that means tanks are extremely hard to kill this edition, in which case you are also one of the best armies for spamming tanks.
Really a win win for you.
Okay, I just checked the numbers, the Manticore is pretty okay at wrecking vehicles 8e edition. Everything sucks at it. Spammed HWT's come up to equivalent efficiency as the Manticore. Melta Veterans come out about as efficient. I should probably have noticed the manticore has to be a tank-killer now, because it's terrible at killing infantry, so it has to do something.
Shadowsword rocks at tank killing, but it also costs an insane amount of points to evaporate 1 Razorback a turn. It does make that poor sorry thing very, very dead though.
I'm just pointing out to Traditio that it's not good enough at killing tanks to prohibit counter-play. Your vehicles, half the price of it, can take the hit. Because Space Marines are likely to have fewer drops than guard, they go first, move up to half board on their turn, and all of their troops are now within close-assault range of the Imperial Guard frontline. If I pound his tank with 2 Manticores to clean it off and let me shoot the guys inside, it took four times its cost in firepower to remove. To quote Traditio: "Does that sound like a good trade to you?"
It's worth mention, to Traditio, that his tanks don't even have to survive the turn, just the guys inside them. But, in order for the guys inside them to die, the tanks have to die. So Razorback or Rhino rushing is a very, very effective counterplay to a manticore.
The Happy Anarchist wrote:Conscripts seem to be the most scary thing to me - and other things like them. Big blobs of cheap effectively immune to morale infantry. Others are Ork Boys and Gaunts.
You can only kill so much and Battleshock is clearly the way to get past that - but every one of those has easy ways to make Battleshock not a factor. And even if you manage to remove those methods, 2CP can cover you for a critical turn easy enough.
Combine with objectives being controlled by who has the most models, or achieved by killing units? Much harder to kill 30 boys or 50 conscripts than it is to kill 5 dudes with special weapons.
Those with flying assault troops - or just flying guys in general may be able to get to Commissars easier. Boyz reinforce each other for morale though, and with Tyranid Warriors quite possibly being a lot better you may see quite a bit more gaunts and plenty of Synapse available.
Yep, Conscripts are where it's at now, I think.
On the Shadowsword:
The lines show the chance of inflicting at least X wounds, the bars show the chance of inflicting X wounds.
It's interesting that a Land Raider is more survivable than a Baneblade against the Volcano Cannon.
Danny slag wrote: Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.
GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.
Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)
Toning down one insanely OP thing per army, but making everything else across the board bettter, especially with being able to walk away from combat then shoot in the same turn, primary's marines, etc, doesn't really sound "worse." One thing per Amy may have gotten worse, everything else either staid the same or got better.
Grav got worse for SM, but I haven't looked through much to see what really changed. I suppose no more insane psyker support/invis deathstars/smashfether for now too.
Tau suits all got WAY more expensive (broadsides more than doubled, crisis suits tripled or worse depending on what weapons they take), markerlights got way worse, and leadership overall got worse for tau (everyone dropped by 1 pretty much). Plus, you can only walk from combat if you have anything LEFT to walk away, which given the new LD values is pretty unlikely.
Breng77 wrote: For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.
Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.
The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it
The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.
Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.
Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.
Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.
Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.
The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).
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TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.
This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:
The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.
This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.
Then prove it. Because even taking every single disengenuous little sidestep you've thrown around under the guise of "the math" at face value the most you've proven is that it's maybe slightly too strong for its points in an ecosystem specifically created to favour its strengths.
Which goes back to my earlier point that you've no clue what you're talking about and the concept of OP is something that's clearly too complex for you to grasp.
Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.
No, not "MEQ player" it's "scrub mentality MEQ player who insists on sub optimal choices and cries when he gets bent over as a consequence."
SilverAlien wrote: For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.
Again, none of these things are viable option.
Before someone proposes another solution and tries to hand-wave off my allegation that manticores are OP, I request that you meet the following criteria:
1. Do some math. Is it statistically likely that what you are proposing is actually going to kill the manticore?
2. Do some math. Is it statistically likely, under normal conditions, that the losses that I will suffer will be greater than the cost of the manticore?
Unless the answer to question 1 is "yes," and the answer to the second question is "no," what you are proposing is NOT a viable solution to manticores, and manticores are overpowered.
Marmatag wrote: I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++ Necrons: + Orks: ++ Imperial Guard: ++ Genestealer Cult: even Eldar: - - Dark Eldar: + Space Marines: - Grey Knights: - - Blood Angels: ++ Space Wolves: + Dark Angels: - - - Tau: even Daemons: - - Chaos Space Marines: ++
I'm really curious how you came to these guesses? ...Specifically I'd like to know how you believe the Blood Angels increased "++"? ...they were a weak codex prior, that relied heavily on Drop-pods to compete at a lower tier, now they've essentially lost the drop-pods, gained in points and lost most of their special rules.
And Grey Knights "--"? ...they were a weak codex prior and have seen some minor improvement at least.
Blood Angels benefit as what made them unique got stronger. Their HQs are actually really solid now, Jump Packs got WAY better for them, the psychic phase changes immediately helped them. Additionally, they can add all primaris stuff on top of that. Codex wide buffs coupled with new units that will synergize well and give them the shooting they lacked in previous editions. Buffs overall to melee really helped these guys. They got measurably better so they get two +'s. I'm not saying they're "two +'s better than average," just that they improved significantly. I can't define what "average" is at the moment - no one can.
Grey Knights got measurably worse, this army is an army of psykers that can really only cast smite at reduced effectiveness and range. Their heavy weapons, psilencers and psycannons, are very weak overall, and they can't take any of the new primaris marines in their army. They have very limited HQ options, and their "force multipliers" really only come into play against Daemons. Grey Knights still have no anti-vehicle, pretty much no anti-air, will get dwarfed by any MSU army, and can't hang with the elite melee units in other codexes. Dreadknight ability to shunt was removed, the flamer received colossal nerf from what it was... Bottom line is these are a gutter army.
+++ = Most improved army ++ = huge improvements over previous edition + = slight improvements over previous edition even = net positives and net negatives make it a wash - = got slightly worse from previous edition - - = got measurably worse than previous edition - - - = heavily nerfed, or core armies invalidated.
In fact, if you want to know just HOW overpowered the manticore is, find a solution to manticores that allows you to answer "yes" to the first question, but also "yes" to the second question. Find out the points difference between my losses and that manticore.
That's how overpowered it is simply in terms of durability.
Not entirely sold on Dire Avengers being 17ppm, but the 7" move+Battle Focus and the ability to Overwatch on a 5+ might compensate for that. I'll need to play with them myself to see, but I'm also not sold on them being useless.
Ubl1k wrote:The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't generic CSM gain the ability to join one of the "Legion" armies if they take a Mark for the respective Chaos God?
Yes and no; generic CSM can take a Legion tag, but only Plague Marines can take the <Death Guard> tag. Anything not on the army list can't be <Death Guard>.
Breng77 wrote: For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.
Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.
The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it
The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.
Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.
Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.
Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.
Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.
The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).
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TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.
This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:
The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.
This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.
I did the math and it is viable. You then use you other stuff to make it less likely you will get wiped out. It is clear you have no desire to consider tactics that might work and have given up assuming something you have yet to play against is broken.
Azreal13 wrote: I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.
Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.
Breng77 wrote: For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.
Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.
The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it
The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.
Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.
Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.
Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.
Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.
The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).
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TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.
This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:
The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.
This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.
I did the math and it is viable. You then use you other stuff to make it less likely you will get wiped out. It is clear you have no desire to consider tactics that might work and have given up assuming something you have yet to play against is broken.
2 pods of lascannon devs and shrike will be fairly likely to kill a mantacore and take little damage in return. Barring crazy terrain you can drop in LOS and at long rang (mitigating retaliation by other units) perhaps even in cover.
10 lascannon shots 6 hitting 75% of the time, 4 hitting 89%. So likely to be 8 times. Wound on 3+ so ~6 wounds one will get saved so that is 5d6 damage an average 17 wounds.
Drop pod grav cannons and Chapter Master Shryke vs. manticore, even assuming ideal conditions (literally a flat table with no terrain; this is another problem with drop pod grav cannons. If you've deployed properly, I have to deploy 9 inches away from your conscripts. If I take grav cannons, I may not be able to reach your manticore: assuming hammer and anvil, 24 inch deployment zone + 9 inches = 33 inches):
Prior to rerolls:
4/1 (number of shots) X 2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 5/6 (to bypass saves) = 40/54 unsaved wounds
12/1 (number of shots) X 1/2 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 5/6 (to bypass saves) = 60 /36
Rerolls:
4/3 X 2/3 X 1/3 X 5/6 = 20/54
6/1 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 5/6 = 30/36
20/54 + 40/54 = 60/54
30/36 + 60/36 = 90/36
Added together, that's 3 11/18 unsaved proto wounds.
Actual average damage will be 6 22/18, or 7 2/9 unsaved wounds.
So, what the math reveals is that not only does a MUCH more expensive squad get wiped on the following turn, but I still couldn't even kill the manticore.
Likewise, lascannon drop pod + Shryke:
Prior to rerolls:
2/3 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 20/54
3/1 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 5/6= 30/36
Rerolls:
1/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 20/162
3/2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 30/48
Added together, that adds up to almost 2, which means average damage of almost 7 wounds.
So, once again, not only do I not kill the manticore, but a MUCH more expensive squad gets wiped on the following turn.
Traditio wrote: In fact, if you want to know just HOW overpowered the manticore is, find a solution to manticores that allows you to answer "yes" to the first question, but also "yes" to the second question. Find out the points difference between my losses and that manticore.
That's how overpowered it is simply in terms of durability.
Fellblade. There. Done, both answered.
8x Lascannon shots, plus Fellblade cannon shot, plus Demolisher cannon, on a nice 26+ wound chassis that's going nowhere.
You wipe the manticore off the board in one round of firing, and sustain no meaningful damage yourself.
Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.
Also, do you want to know why the manticore can kill more than it's points cost? Because Guardsmen can't.
Breng77 wrote: So that just proves you don't know how probability works.
Rerolls mean a 3+ hits 88.89% and a 4+ hits 75%.
You also take the armorium cherub to shoot twice with you 3+ hitting model.
So for grav
12 x 3/4x1/3x5/6= 180/72=2.5
And
8x8/9x1/3x5/6= 320/162= 1.97
Or about 4.5 so 9 wounds.
I won't even bother going through the trouble to dispute this.
Let's suppose that your math were accurate.
What you are alleging is STILL that the grav cannons don't kill the manticore, and a much more expensive squad gets wiped.
But deployment could be trouble so double lascannon team who can deploy at range is a better option.
Do you know how much a double lascannon team costs? And are these teams in drop pods? Are they accompanied by Shryke?
You understand why, even if this technically meets the first criterion (actually kills the manticore), it does not meet my second criterion (my losses are not greater than the cost of the manticore), yes?
I was going to, then Breng posted basically what I was going to say.
You're sitting here whining about Imperial Guard being overpowered when they've never even made a dent on the competitive scene since Leafblower back in fifth-- and even leafblower had serious vulnerabilities that the competitive scene quickly adapted to in order to counter it, leaving it little more than a short-lived fad. In 6th and 7th, the only way they're competitive is literally if you decide to gimp your army and play it at its weakest possible state, and even then, you STILL stand a good chance at beating them-- the same cannot be said of if Guard played at its weakest against a competitive Marine army.
You can't even make a successful argument about a single unit in the codex, never mind anything else in it. The elite units in the codex are a joke and often rarely ever actually taken, the fast attack units are usually iffy save for the fliers, which themselves aren't even better than what the various flavors of Marines or Eldar can get, and their troops choices are often little more than meat shields with the heavy weapons you vaunt as being oh so op dramatically underperforming point per point compared to heavy weapons carried by marines.
Have you ever considered that you just suck at playing the game and make poor tactical decisions?
Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.
A rhino with what embarked models?
A rhino by itself is not going to do anything except, perhaps, crash into your conscripts, who, in turn, will fall back, get back in the fight, and deal wounds to the rhino.
Also, do you want to know why the manticore can kill more than it's points cost? Because Guardsmen can't.
1. They don't need to. That's not what they're for.
2. 8th edition conscripts and guardsmen are much more effective in 8th. Lasguns now wound T5 models on 5s. Furthermore, they are able to deal wounds to vehicles.
Combined with orders, the damage dealing capacity of conscripts and guardsmen is non-negligible.
Breng77 wrote: So that just proves you don't know how probability works.
Rerolls mean a 3+ hits 88.89% and a 4+ hits 75%.
You also take the armorium cherub to shoot twice with you 3+ hitting model.
So for grav
12 x 3/4x1/3x5/6= 180/72=2.5
And
8x8/9x1/3x5/6= 320/162= 1.97
Or about 4.5 so 9 wounds.
I won't even bother going through the trouble to dispute this.
Let's suppose that your math were accurate.
What you are alleging is STILL that the grav cannons don't kill the manticore, and a much more expensive squad gets wiped.
But deployment could be trouble so double lascannon team who can deploy at range is a better option.
Do you know how much a double lascannon team costs? And are these teams in drop pods? Are they accompanied by Shryke?
You understand why, even if this technically meets the first criterion (actually kills the manticore), it does not meet my second criterion (my losses are not greater than the cost of the manticore), yes?
Sure it meets #2. What makes it a necessity that you will lose those squads? With 48" range there will be plenty of safe in LOS deployment options, You can also apply threat with other things to draw fire. It is more expensive sure, but there is no auto loss of those units.
Breng77 wrote:Sure it meets #2. What makes it a necessity that you will lose those squads? With 48" range there will be plenty of safe in LOS deployment options, You can also apply threat with other things to draw fire. It is more expensive sure, but there is no auto loss of those units.
You can't assume that I'll be able to deploy 48 inches away. The likelihood is that IG counter-deployment will force a midfield deployment of the drop pods, lascannon teams and shryke simply in order to draw LoS to the manticore with both teams.
And then here's the question: will those teams have the luxury of cover? Again, we cannot assume that.
So what is likely going to happen is that those teams will be in plain sight and in range of the entire IG army.
So we can safely assume that the squads will get wiped, or if they don't, it's because the IG opponent is taking an even bigger chunk out of my army.
No, that is not a viable solution.
Propose a solution that costs as much as or less than the manticore, or else, admit that the manticore is OP.
Marmatag wrote: Everyone needs to stop acting as though shooting is the way to kill anything in this edition.
It's melee. A bunch of power fists / hammers will absolutely smash vehicles.
Terminators are better anti-tank than anti-tank gun squads.
How do you propose that I get those terminators to the manticore? You realize that conscripts are 3 ppm and will only ever lose 1 model in the battleshock phase due to commissars, yes?
No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.
Breng77 wrote: No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.
1. "Ignore the manticore entirely" is not an acceptable answer. It was not an acceptable answer for wraithknights. It was not an acceptable answer for riptides. It is not an acceptable answer for manticores. If you are telling me to ignore it, you are admitting that there is no viable answer to it, and it's OP.
2. Even assuming "normal" conditions, in order to make the points back, the IG player only has to kill 4 models from one of the lascannon teams. If he wipes an entire lascannon team, then he's made back his points plus some for that manticore.
3. And even if not, then "take termis" has to be counted as part of the overall strategy you are proposing (so now we are at...what? Almost 700 points worth of models to deal with ONE model on the IG side?), and if the IG player kills 3-4 termis, then the manticore has made its points back.
Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.
A rhino with what embarked models?
A rhino by itself is not going to do anything except, perhaps, crash into your conscripts, who, in turn, will fall back, get back in the fight, and deal wounds to the rhino.
Whatever the hell you want that's going to help you win the game.
IMO, the Rhino is way too powerful.
It's fast and hilariously resilient for something that costs 40 points. Against an army riding in Rhinos there's simply nothing I can do.
It's just far too versatile. You can stick assault weapons in it and have a rolling box of meltaguns or plasmaguns for half the price the Imperial Guard pays for it. You can stuff them full of assault troops, and get turn 2 charges on me, or if you don't want to lose your guys, you can charge on turn 3 and use the Rhino as a buffer after your disembark. There's just nothing I can do, because they're way too tough. When I shoot them with my premier antitank guns, which cost as much as the thing does just for one gun, the Rhino is at most mildly annoyed! And, once it's unloaded, it can just tank-shock my guys over and over and over again, to secure objective locations.
And of course, to rub the point home, there's the Razorback, which is a Rhino that has a gun on it! A TWIN LINKED gun! That gives the Razorback ability to confront any of my tanks or infantry units! You get a TL Lascannon or Assault Cannon on a survivable chassis for 75 points, while I get a squad of lascannons, that has the same projected damage output but far less survivability, for over 100! And, of course, my gun team will, on at best, mildly annoy the Razorback before the Razorback, or the guy firing from it's fire point, wipes them off the board!
Seriously. It's great the Rhino and Razorback lost their firepoints and recieved price hikes in 8e, but now you can assault out of them! And they're even tougher! There's nothing I have that can kill them that costs less than they do! I mean, they took the step to nerf them, but then they went ahead and buffed them through the roof!
Space Marines are OP and are even more OP in 8th.
By the way, you will always be able to put a model within 48" of a Manticore. The board is only 48" from my edge to your edge. Or 48" from my edge to the front edge of your deployment zone. Since the Manticore cannot, in fact, set up off of the board, you will always be able to set up within 48" of it.
Also, Fellblades are on Page 20 of the Index for FW models, so it is, in fact, legal in 40k games. Unlike the Volkite Glaive, which is not legal. I'm always on the fence about whether I want a Fellblade for my Space Wolves. It's really cool and definitely good, but it's also very expensive.
Breng77 wrote: No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.
1. "Ignore the manticore entirely" is not an acceptable answer. It was not an acceptable answer for wraithknights. It was not an acceptable answer for riptides. It is not an acceptable answer for manticores. If you are telling me to ignore it, you are admitting that there is no viable answer to it, and it's OP.
2. Even assuming "normal" conditions, in order to make the points back, the IG player only has to kill 4 models from one of the lascannon teams. If he wipes an entire lascannon team, then he's made back his points plus some for that manticore.
3. And even if not, then "take termis" has to be counted as part of the overall strategy you are proposing (so now we are at...what? Almost 700 points worth of models to deal with ONE model on the IG side?), and if the IG player kills 3-4 termis, then the manticore has made its points back.
1.) no it is saying that against the army I proposed it is of little significance. It will maybe (big maybe) kill 4 units. It is great against high value targets if I have none, it is not that amazing.
2.) assumes I don't take redshirted in those squads. If he kills 2 or 3 bolter marines and 2 lascannons.
3.). Nope, it is considering army against army. As you are giving a whole army to the mantacore player that will kill the drop pod units so it is only fair to say that using my whole army this can be mitigated. You are requiring people to come up with a unit of less than 200 points that will be able to do 11 wounds, and withstand 2000 points of firepower unsupported. No such unit exists. You play the game with your whole army of which the mentioned squads are part of a larger strategy. Killing the mantacore doesn't win the game on its own. So maybe I kill the mantacore and a bunch of those conscripts and lure the opponent to target other units. Trap him in his deployment and win on objectives.
Traditio, are you factoring in the cost of all these bubble wrap squads you keep talking about? Because all of those raise the price of the manticore without actually doing anything other than sitting around the manticore.
indeed a 50 conscript blod is 150 points, a Commissair is 31. making the "doomsday unit" here cost 314 points. for that much I could just take a Land Raider, or a Storm Raven.
I struggle to see how Manticores will be overpowered unless you put together an army which is especially vulnerable to it.
It will make its points back if it gets to fire four times without anything happening to it. If you get optimal targets it might be 3 turns.
Well great but that is kind of where a lot units are.
Even conscripts will do that in some scenario where they can just throw out rapid fire and are just ignored.
If the Manticore isn't dramatically more damaging than anything else in the army then yes you can ignore it because in points/damage you can kill anything else and have a similar effect.
Wraithknights in 7th were overpowered because they had the capacity to reliably delete whole units a turn. Unless you could feed it chaff if you ignored it then it could wipe half an elite army on its own.
Because of this it tended to attract every gun in the enemy's arsenal but because it had great defensive stats this was usually a good thing and meant the rest of your army wasn't getting torn to pieces.
This is not going to be true of a unit which on average kills a terminator or does 3 wounds to the average vehicle every turn.
Oh, you mean in 7th. In 8th they will receive a price hike.
Yeah, I know. This makes a bit of a mess of my Melta-Dominion lists.
I don't actually have a problem with rhinos and razorbacks. I was just imitating Traditio.
Clearly, we know the Rhino isn't overpowered, but my points aren't entirely wrong. It's fast, it has 2 fire point from which embarked troops can fire from, and if I shoot it with a 105 point lascannon gun team it has about a 1-in-8 chance of dying. It's entirely unfazed by Leman Russ Battle Tanks and Basilisks and Manticores, which are many times their value. Even supposedly dedicated antitank units, like the Leman Russ Vanquisher, or hell, even the 520-point Shadowsword, are fairly poor at killing them. And 75 point Razorback vs. 105-point Lascannon squad results in 3 dead lascannons and a Razorback less 1 out of 3 HP. And they're very spammable, even without getting them for free from the Gladius.
SilverAlien wrote: For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.
Again, none of these things are viable option.
Before someone proposes another solution and tries to hand-wave off my allegation that manticores are OP, I request that you meet the following criteria:
1. Do some math. Is it statistically likely that what you are proposing is actually going to kill the manticore?
2. Do some math. Is it statistically likely, under normal conditions, that the losses that I will suffer will be greater than the cost of the manticore?
Unless the answer to question 1 is "yes," and the answer to the second question is "no," what you are proposing is NOT a viable solution to manticores, and manticores are overpowered.
Question: Why is killing the manticore needed? It's fairly easy to neutralize the manticore while leaving it alive, with vanguard veterans deepstriking in and some storm shields so actually using the gun on them would be a huge waste of points. This the safest and cheapest way to deal with it. If it disengages, no firing and they can easily charge it again, it won't kill them in melee anytime soon, and if it gets a shot at them (failed first turn charge) it won't do much more than maybe kill one model. Desperation overwatch with the missles is even sadder.
If you want to kill it, you can run a thunder hammer on your sarge, maybe grab a melta bomb as well given it's pretty cheap. That'll reliably kill it in 2-3 turns, and the unit is at little to no risk from the manticore. Or, if you want to keep the price under the manticore, a normal assault squad can do the trick with a thunderhammer on the sarge and plasma pistols on 3 models. Riskier to be sure (particularly if you wanna go for the first turn overcharge) but it's under the price and can reliably take it out in 3-4 turns.
You've also got a few good chapter specific options. Blood angels can do combi melta+storm shield+company veterans+jump packs. That's probably the best option point wise, though deathwing knights look tempting. Also, most greyknight units can do something like the above assault squads, between daemon hammers and force falchions.
The biggest problem is finding anti tank that can get close without costing a fortune and drop pods cost a ton these days. Note that this is partially a SM issue, many armies have much easier access to counters (CSM has raptors and terminators for deepstriking melta goodness, tau has battlesuits with melta as always).
NenkotaMoon wrote: That and to defend the whole damn thing from a deep strike is somewhat of a waste. 300+ some points to get something that can shoot a few turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also there is like a laugh track or something whenever Traditio posts or is it just me?
Don't mind me, Mr. Manticore. I'll just be sitting here on objectives with my infantry, winning the game.
There's a laugh track running after every line of text Traditio writes.
) the "Ignore cover" rules aren't that important as 7th edition.
