Fairly straight forward.
Do we really need more Marine Boys? Is getting to play Horus Hersey in 40k, Primarchs and all a good thing?
Who even wanted another Xenos codex anyway?
[You knew sisters of silence would be excluded. They've got the word, 'Sisters' in their name.]
I don’t love it, but wish they would have been in an ensemble codex (like agents of the Imperium)
But I don’t hate or resent it.
IMHO the custodes shouldn’t be a full on army. I’m fine with a squad or two being attached to other armies, but this isn’t 30k here. At least they are giving them a decent spread of units to fill their army. I strongly dislike the old one-unit* codexes (imperial knights, scions, etc) If you don’t have something for every FOC slot, you probably don’t need your own book.
So I don’t think it needs to exist, but it looks like they did a decent job on it, and I’m sure lots of people will like it. Minis look nice.
Discouraged. More imperial junk, no rhyme or reason to the releases.
And unless there is a lot more than what has shown off, it looks like yet another partial army that will have to stand on the back of the imperial soup.
Plus, given how elite armies are handled, on the table it will likely be pretty bad. The alternative is absurdly overpowered death machines that just won't die,
I just pre ordered my Daemons dex (yay!) they just announced an incoming Death battletome and 1kSons dex (yay two times!). I have only gotten 11 games in with the Chapter Approved upgrade for my Sisters (Boooo!). I only have two of the three refinery kits I bought cleaned and assembled (so much plastic....) All three of my plasma reactors and three plasma pipe sets are assembled (yay!). I do have the underhive terrain all painted up (yay again!) but I have yet to get my Cawdor beyond the primer stage since deciding to strip and repaint them for Newcromunda.
I don't have the hobby time to care about the Custodes dex, I still haven't gotten to play with all the other new toys!
Quite bitter. The level of neglect so many factions are getting while GW decides to introduce a wholly unnecessary new faction is a real kick in the head. Especially since it's just another marine army.
I don't see how introducing an Adeptus Custodes army helps the game as a whole. I mean, what niche do they fulfil? We already have a bunch of powered armored imperials.
If they were part of agents of the imperium book, that covered minor add ons such as inquisitors and what not, sure, that would make sense, as then you can give space marines inquisitorial support or have custodes accompany imperial guard, maybe throw a couple of supporting buffs in there to add a bit of synergy, but as a complete, stand alone army? I don't see the point.
Beautiful models(what else to expect from GW), but otherwise I don't find it that much exciting.
Going to echo someone else's sentiment and say that I would have been more excited if this were an Imperium as a whole(Inquisition, Custodes, SoB?) rather than another testosto dudes in power armor army.
I have a boner harder than a chair leg, but I voted for the second option. This could have been a nice November army for this year. They should have started with new xenos.
As I said in the other thread, Xenos Hype, New Army Hype, Oh its Custodes, Meh.
As people said its just Marines+. I guess they must sell, but I don't really see why there needs to be a dozen power armoured factions that are variations on a theme.
This probably takes us to at least mid Feb/March, where they will probably have to roll something out for AoS - probably two lines. So it could easily be 6 months before there is even a hope of something "new" in 40k (although I'd expect a new 40k Codex every month, so that's something I guess).
If Slaanesh are getting a release very late 18 early 19 (pure speculation imo - but not totally implausible) that suggests maybe one possible release window for a Xenos faction. I am not holding my breath.
Adeptus Custodes get a codex but my fricking Skitarii couldn't be made to be a standalone? We literally just needed an HQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: As I said in the other thread, Xenos Hype, New Army Hype, Oh its Custodes, Meh.
When people are mirroring the image and then flipping it upside down to justify their "IT'S A NEW XENOS ARMY!!!1!" speculation...they're just setting themselves up for disappointment.
There are a long list of things I would have preferred over this, but still, cool models and new army options, so I'm fine, even a bit exited. I would have liked to see them bundled with SoS and other imperial agents stuff, but it's not a big deal.
I'm not sure I will get them, maybe a squad or two at one point to include in my imperial soup. And regardless of my personal feelings about them, I know this is something a lot of people have wanted, so it is good thing that they're here.
Otto Weston wrote: Resent and really should have been another neglected faction, SISTERS, Inq, Xenos Mercenaries, etc.
Yeah, but GW is releasing what is selling. And giant space-romans with oversized testicles and six coats of gold-plated golden gold-armour will sell like ecstacy at a rave-party. You know it's true.
Crimson wrote: There are a long list of things I would have preferred over this, but still, cool models and new army options, so I'm fine, even a bit exited. I would have liked to see them bundles with SoS and other imperial agents stuff, but it's not a big deal.
I'm not sure I will get them, maybe a squad or two at one point to include in my imperial soup. And regardless of my personal feelings about them, I know this is something a lot of people have wanted, so it is good thing that they're here.
And I hope that half a year after the release, they then get their own codex snaked out from under them and forced to share a book with some other faction that the players have no interest in so I can say "You're the only one who wanted that anyways!".
Games Workshop re-directed resources away from existing factions waiting for a codex to make yet another army of giant power-armoured dudes. Pretty annoying to be honest. Was hoping they would have some sort of interesting character, or something that I could relate with, but they're just more of the same.
AegisGrimm wrote: As cool as they look, yeah GW needed to get all armies into 8th edition before releasing a new army.
Disagree.
It doesn't take a whole lot for them to "get all armies into 8th edition". Doing actual semi-new stuff lets the writers do things that isn't just effectively revising/editing work.
AegisGrimm wrote: As cool as they look, yeah GW needed to get all armies into 8th edition before releasing a new army.
Disagree.
It doesn't take a whole lot for them to "get all armies into 8th edition". Doing actual semi-new stuff lets the writers do things that isn't just effectively revising/editing work.
If it doesn't take long, then they should be getting them out first instead of re-directing those resources to making newer power-armoured dudes.
Expensive elite power armor armies with limited numbers are my favorite type of opponent. And I'm not one for blinged out shiny Imperial models but those jet bikes are amazing.
AegisGrimm wrote: As cool as they look, yeah GW needed to get all armies into 8th edition before releasing a new army.
Disagree.
It doesn't take a whole lot for them to "get all armies into 8th edition". Doing actual semi-new stuff lets the writers do things that isn't just effectively revising/editing work.
If it doesn't take long, then they should be getting them out first instead of re-directing those resources to making newer power-armoured dudes.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard) since 8th edition dropped. We have another army going up for preorder today and two more armies(1 new, 1 revised Custodes and Thousand Sons) announced. We also have two armies in the "stand by for announcement" phase since they didn't get updated in the Chapter Approved(Tau and Necrons) along with the Daemons(preorders today).
That makes 5 more armies slated to come out sometime in the next 5 months, with GW having said that by July 2018 all of the 40k armies will have been updated.
They're moving along at a freaking breakneck pace and you want them to move faster? Working on "new" projects like Death Guard and now Custodes are a great way for the writing teams to stretch their legs(so to speak) from just doing what amounts as editorial and revision work.
AegisGrimm wrote: As cool as they look, yeah GW needed to get all armies into 8th edition before releasing a new army.
Disagree.
It doesn't take a whole lot for them to "get all armies into 8th edition". Doing actual semi-new stuff lets the writers do things that isn't just effectively revising/editing work.
If it doesn't take long, then they should be getting them out first instead of re-directing those resources to making newer power-armoured dudes.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard) since 8th edition dropped. We have another army going up for preorder today and two more armies(1 new, 1 revised Custodes and Thousand Sons) announced. We also have two armies in the "stand by for announcement" phase since they didn't get updated in the Chapter Approved(Tau and Necrons) along with the Daemons(preorders today).
That makes 5 more armies slated to come out sometime in the next 5 months, with GW having said that by July 2018 all of the 40k armies will have been updated.
They're moving along at a freaking breakneck pace and you want them to move faster? Working on "new" projects like Death Guard and now Custodes are a great way for the writing teams to stretch their legs(so to speak) from just doing what amounts as editorial and revision work.
Working on those "new" projects requires other releases to be pushed back. And over half of the factions that have been released are some type of power-armoured dude, with the next 2 being even more power armour. I think it's too much at this point. And no xenos factions have been announced. Just speculation that GW will have to eventually do something else.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard)
9. Dont forget nomnom Nids
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT NIDS!
So 9 armies, only one of which was really "new"(Death Guard). Space Marines had a new subfaction added into them with the Primaris but anyone arguing that's a new army is full of crap.
Crimson wrote: There are a long list of things I would have preferred over this, but still, cool models and new army options, so I'm fine, even a bit exited. I would have liked to see them bundles with SoS and other imperial agents stuff, but it's not a big deal.
I'm not sure I will get them, maybe a squad or two at one point to include in my imperial soup. And regardless of my personal feelings about them, I know this is something a lot of people have wanted, so it is good thing that they're here.
And I hope that half a year after the release, they then get their own codex snaked out from under them and forced to share a book with some other faction that the players have no interest in so I can say "You're the only one who wanted that anyways!".
I'll have liked more a Talons of the Emperor Codex with Custodes and SoS. Because SoS, by their own nature, can't fuction has a stand alone army (Too specialized, even more than grey knights), and by lore they normally fight alongside Custodes. And is not like, being in the same Codex, you can't play just one force or the other if they give SoS a HQ too.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard)
9. Dont forget nomnom Nids
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT NIDS!
So 9 armies, only one of which was really "new"(Death Guard). Space Marines had a new subfaction added into them with the Primaris but anyone arguing that's a new army is full of crap.
SOB can horde actually. WIth 9pt Power armor all with Bolters, SB's, Flamers or Meltas, 15 women size units that can easily get move/shoot/attack twice with Re-rolls to hits and a 6++.
Its easy to field 150 models with Celestine, Canoness, with about 40 SB's and 20 HB's, that still leaves about 150pts.
IDK if you would call that a "horde" army per-say, but for Power Army i would.
Imateria wrote: More space marines, because thats exactly what the game needed....
I'm seeing this a lot, and while on the surface it's easy to agree with it - GW isn't about "the game". Hasn't been in a decade or more. It's about grey plastic which sells for way more money than it should, and Space Marines in all their guises do that. I think people need to simply come to terms with the fact that GW isn't in the business of perfecting or concentrating on the game, except for as it serves to sell models.
The game doesn't need more Custodes, etc...but GW is on a financial high and they're continuing to churn out stuff which is keeping them there.
Imateria wrote: More space marines, because thats exactly what the game needed....
I'm seeing this a lot, and while on the surface it's easy to agree with it - GW isn't about "the game". Hasn't been in a decade or more. It's about grey plastic which sells for way more money than it should, and Space Marines in all their guises do that. I think people need to simply come to terms with the fact that GW isn't in the business of perfecting or concentrating on the game, except for as it serves to sell models.
The game doesn't need more Custodes, etc...but GW is on a financial high and they're continuing to churn out stuff which is keeping them there.
The best way to change their attitude is through their finances. I've not bought anything from Games Workshop since 8th edition released. Not because I didn't have the money, but because there was genuinely no interesting new models for me to buy. But that's anecdotal, and I'm sure Games Workshop's finances will be looking fine regardless.
I agree, but I think it's been proven that they're gaining far more younger buyers than the "older" curmudgeony grognards that are throwing their hands up and leaving the game. That's been the case for quite a while.
Heck, back in 2003 it was part of their sales strategy as set out with store managers in the US, etc.
I just think we need to kill the expectation that GW is trying to make a beautifully balanced game. As always, they need a game which is fun, and functional just enough to generate more interest in models, etc. They're obviously doing that. I think people who genuinely believe GW is going to put in a load of extra effort to make the game beautifully smooth and balanced...are in for a genuine disappointment.
We can be disappointed in what GW is doing, but let's not kid ourselves as to why they're doing it all.
I like the models, I like the Custodes as a faction, but having the Custodes as a playable army in its own right has some issues. Having yet another, "elite of the elite, most special of the special, rarest of the rare" army gets...old, and the Custodes have never really had a place in 40k and it feels like they're being somewhat hamfisted in, at least in some ways. There's also other armies that need updates and codex books first, both Imperial and Xenos.
If they were gonna do this, I wish they'd have done it after everything else got a codex or at least paired it with an Inquisition/Agents of the Imperium release.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard)
9. Dont forget nomnom Nids
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT NIDS!
So 9 armies, only one of which was really "new"(Death Guard). Space Marines had a new subfaction added into them with the Primaris but anyone arguing that's a new army is full of crap.
SOB can horde actually. WIth 9pt Power armor all with Bolters, SB's, Flamers or Meltas, 15 women size units that can easily get move/shoot/attack twice with Re-rolls to hits and a 6++.
Its easy to field 150 models with Celestine, Canoness, with about 40 SB's and 20 HB's, that still leaves about 150pts.
IDK if you would call that a "horde" army per-say, but for Power Army i would.
Okay....?
What the hell does that have to do with literally anything I said?
If they wanted a model release opportunity, they could have done sisters of battle: satisfying a good chunk of their existing base. If they didn’t want a full release they could have given Orks, Necrons, or dark eldar players a much anticipated codex and got people to update collections which are probably on the back burner. Custodes are the army that no one asked for.
I've liked custodes since before they ever had a model, and it's nice to see them get to be more than a flavor in imperial soup. It's annoying that my necrons get pushed down the schedule again, and it's a down right crime against reason that we get another imperial faction.
Seriously, I am a hardcore Space Marine player and this announcement annoys me. How about some Xenos armies gets some new stuff? Some of those lines are ancient and terrible. I was hoping the “Big” announcement was a new Xenos faction. Here’s to Grey Knights 2.0!
A couple new infantry units, an HQ, and jet bikes are not helping or making this much of a viable army. It needs tanks and transports to really be able to stand on it's own. Otherwise, this codex is going to be DOA and will contribute nothing more to the game then more Imperial Soup.
If the codex allows you to use the 30K Grav Tanks and transports, then it will be a viable army list.
GW should have released an Ork, or Tau, or Dark Eldar codex instead.
I agree with a few posters above- another Imperial Codex that no one was asking for.
Tamwulf wrote: A couple new infantry units, an HQ, and jet bikes are not helping or making this much of a viable army. It needs tanks and transports to really be able to stand on it's own. Otherwise, this codex is going to be DOA and will contribute nothing more to the game then more Imperial Soup.
If the codex allows you to use the 30K Grav Tanks and transports, then it will be a viable army list.
GW should have released an Ork, or Tau, or Dark Eldar codex instead.
I agree with a few posters above- another Imperial Codex that no one was asking for.
You mean like the FW models that are going to get 40k rules?
Better question is will reverse be true? Will 30k players be able to use these models or are these useless for them?
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard)
9. Dont forget nomnom Nids
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT NIDS!
So 9 armies, only one of which was really "new"(Death Guard). Space Marines had a new subfaction added into them with the Primaris but anyone arguing that's a new army is full of crap.
SOB can horde actually. WIth 9pt Power armor all with Bolters, SB's, Flamers or Meltas, 15 women size units that can easily get move/shoot/attack twice with Re-rolls to hits and a 6++.
Its easy to field 150 models with Celestine, Canoness, with about 40 SB's and 20 HB's, that still leaves about 150pts.
IDK if you would call that a "horde" army per-say, but for Power Army i would.
Okay....?
What the hell does that have to do with literally anything I said?
lolman1c wrote: Their teaser is what makes me bitter. The whole "they have watched and waited" sounded like a xenos cool thing... not fancy dany gold marines.
It was a basic image, 1 day before the release. And it fits Custodes perfectly.
Custodes were the next army in the pipeline wether the publicity team was asked to throw together a quick teaser or not. Why does GW adding the teaser make you feel like they owe you something?
I think truthfully, you're just upset it isn't your army right?
I would have liked them to do Talons of the Emperor instead of two separate Sisters of Silence and Custodians books.
Especially since they were sold together.
Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
Pretty disappointed that this is considered a "HUGE" announcement to be honest.
More power armour dudes is a bit of a joke given the release schedule thus far - particularly when Tau and Necrons had 0 love in CA.
I find it incredibly misguided that they decided to release a new faction before releasing all of the existing. Xenos players are fuming all over their social media pages right now and rightly so. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for GW, they have definitely had a burn with this announcement, particularly after the hype around it yesterday.
I'm not interested in Gold Muhreens and I won't purchase any so it means nothing to me really. Just the standard stupid GW decisions.
Necrons did get love in CA They got one of their iconic items back, the warlord trait isn't too bad and one of their stratagems is pretty handy. Not sure about the other one.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Necrons did get love in CA They got one of their iconic items back, the warlord trait isn't too bad and one of their stratagems is pretty handy. Not sure about the other one.
No points changes though? For an army that's never at the top tables of tournaments in 8th? Necrons and Tau had less than every other faction featured in it.
lolman1c wrote: Their teaser is what makes me bitter. The whole "they have watched and waited" sounded like a xenos cool thing... not fancy dany gold marines.
It was a basic image, 1 day before the release. And it fits Custodes perfectly.
Custodes were the next army in the pipeline wether the publicity team was asked to throw together a quick teaser or not. Why does GW adding the teaser make you feel like they owe you something?
I think truthfully, you're just upset it isn't your army right?
Don'tpresume to know me. 1. I play orks and imperial fists successors and none of them related to the teaser.
2. They acted like it was going to be huge... like it was a brand new never before seen army but it was something they had already announced stuff for and we all knew as comming.
3. The tag line doesn't fit Gold Mehriens at all! In what way wrre they watching and waiting? In the lore they have already been sent out and why woukd they want to wait? Their job is to defend the emperor.
4. They showed an image that's associated with xenos ra es rather than anything imperial. They could have showed tera in the image which would have made more sense but they knew there woukd be negative reactions to another imperial faction.
Now it's time for me to presume you... I think truthfully you're just someone who can't get of GW's lap and accept they can do thing wrong as well as right.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Necrons did get love in CA They got one of their iconic items back, the warlord trait isn't too bad and one of their stratagems is pretty handy. Not sure about the other one.
No points changes though? For an army that's never at the top tables of tournaments in 8th? Necrons and Tau had less than every other faction featured in it.
Did anyone in the CA get points changes? I don't think they did. The problem with the necrons isn't points. The problem is that their current loadout is mediocre. They have no mobility options, no easy access to heavy hitters, and not much in terms of versatility. Points don't matter when the very design is flawed. "make it cheaper" is an amateur's way of solving it a serious balance problem. The CA help alleviates that by giving them a mobility option and proper stratagems.
I agree that the teaser actually had a negative effect of my perception of this reveal. They over-hyped what we should expect and massively under-delivered.
I also agree that the teaser was only very vaguely related to Custodes and would have made much more sense for a Xenos reveal. A big waste really.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Did anyone in the CA get points changes? I don't think they did.
The problem with the necrons isn't points. The problem is that their current loadout is mediocre. They have no mobility options, no easy access to heavy hitters, and not much in terms of versatility. You can make them 1 point each. That still wouldn't address the core problems with the necron list.
The CA help alleviates that by giving them a mobility option and proper stratagems.
Fam every faction in CA, apart from Necrons and Tau, had points changes. Every. Faction.
I don't presume what does and doesn't make Necrons work, I just know what was (or wasn't) in CA and why players of such factions are right to be irritated.
Looking forward to playing against them as one of my friends has a custodes army for HH he can use. However I'd have liked to see another xenos codex before yet another imperial one.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I agree that the teaser actually had a negative effect of my perception of this reveal. They over-hyped what we should expect and massively under-delivered.
I also agree that the teaser was only very vaguely related to Custodes and would have made much more sense for a Xenos reveal. A big waste really.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Did anyone in the CA get points changes? I don't think they did. The problem with the necrons isn't points. The problem is that their current loadout is mediocre. They have no mobility options, no easy access to heavy hitters, and not much in terms of versatility. You can make them 1 point each. That still wouldn't address the core problems with the necron list.
The CA help alleviates that by giving them a mobility option and proper stratagems.
Fam every faction in CA, apart from Necrons and Tau, had points changes. Every. Faction.
I don't presume what does and doesn't make Necrons work, I just know what was (or wasn't) in CA and why players of such factions are right to be irritated.
Oh I see now. The changes are in the back of the book instead of being in the relevant army sections. Where they should have been Hopefully this means that the Necron and Tau update is soon.
Having picked up the Talons of the Emperor box recently the idea of newer rules for these dudes is nice - a lot depends just what they get in the book though for how useful it is.
Given the production issues at GW currently I doubt there will be a large number of new kits - we know there is a character, likely also a more generic HQ as well, the video shows jet bikes - what they really need though is another actual infantry type box.
Wondering if GW have even tried to give this lot an army, or if they are designed to run alongside others?
Will certainly be getting some of the jet bikes though, just because
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Also ignores the currently existing mono-faction armies that are in the game.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Oh? Custodes for elite h2h power, IG for chaff and shooting. Seems pretty strong army to me.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Oh? Custodes for elite h2h power, IG for chaff and shooting. Seems pretty strong army to me.
Not to go off topic in my own thread, but this is a very bad way to play 40k.
The game rewards doubling down on your strengths. It is a gosh darn terrible idea to have a handful of units that forfill multiple functions and having a hugely expensive custodes unit in a AM army is a terrible idea.
How many people do you see sticking Grey Knights in? Vanguard Space Marines? You can't even find any competative AM lists that have Ogyrns in.
There's is nothing a custodes army can offer me to soup in. I'm not even sure what armies would benefit. And while I see a lot of 'Yay, I get to use my 30k models in 40k' [And while I resent you for the effect it's having on 40k, I can certainly understand feeling you've got double the value of your money, that's a perfectly legitimate reason to be excited.] I've not seen anyone go, 'Yesss! Being able to soup in some Custodes is going to make my list killer.' Even in fluffy games I mean... How many fluff battles take place in the Imperial Palace?
And don't give me GW's new crap of, 'And now we've decided to send the custodes out into the galaxy and abandon terra!' Because that's Primaris level of stupidity, even for the Imperium.
It's one of the reasons why xenos can suck. The imperium players have a huge variety to play with in tournaments (look at the assassin girlyman lists that were winning in the first tournaments) that give them options an Ork player couldn't have. Even tyranid players would use genestealer baneblades (and still do). In a way this allows players to expand, collect cool things, have cool fantasy battles and have a good looking shelf. In another way it's a system designed to make gw more money, cuts out the options for xenos factions that are given only one play style and dilutes the armies until nothing feels unique.
In the lore if a guardsman ever even caught eye of a marine it would be as if the emperor himself was walking among them. It's an extremely rare sight that only a few lucky soldiers had. In the game Girly man the pappa smurf marine is leading conscripts into battle. XD At some point you no longer distinguish them and the mythology of 40k just blends together. It's why I personally hate to use the term xenos but i'm forced to do so... it's a imperium propaganda word that blends so many unique and colourful factions into a single pot! It's an Us vs Them kinda word and just highlights modern Gw's tactics of making sport for imperium players (even though the xenos saying has been around for a while).
On a side note, I believe having 30k models in 40k is a good idea. I myself play with 30k models exclusively in 40k as proxies because I prefer the design. But you need to have a faction fully fleshed out before you separate them. Sisters should have complimented the faction (making more lore sense) and given the auxiliary imperium players a fully fleshed out army to play with rather than having to bulk their Golden Mehriens with other factions.
On the fence. On one hand if you can stick rules for the Forge World models and some kind of counter to Smite-spam into 8th they don't really need new plastics, but on the other hand I really like the pictures I've seen of the plastic jetbikes.
Oh I see now. The changes are in the back of the book instead of being in the relevant army sections. Where they should have been Hopefully this means that the Necron and Tau update is soon.
That was the hope, but we got bumped behind daemons and now custodes, so a lot of tau and Necron players are getting discouraged. The game is better with good antagonist, but GW seems to think that good antagonist are exactly like the protagonist but with different colored power armor.
40k: Where you have Space Marines (and Space Marines inside Space Marines), Viking Space Marines, Vampire Space Marines, Paladin Space Marines (some inside bigger Space Marines), Ghost Space Marines, Operator Space Marines, 9 flavors of Spiky Space Marine, one flavor of Secretly Spiky Space Marine, and two distinct types of Space Marine Space Marine. I do not await the possibility of Primaris Custodes, aka Space Marine Space Marine Space Marines.
Fafnir wrote: Quite bitter. The level of neglect so many factions are getting while GW decides to introduce a wholly unnecessary new faction is a real kick in the head. Especially since it's just another marine army.
Ok. I get everyone has a right to feel the way they do but come on people. Do you really think GW just pulled this out of their hat yesterday? Their development cycle is at least a year long. So this didn’t keep resources from other stuff because these have probably been in production at the plant for 6 months, possibly longer. Also, backing this up, several people from the open day have stated that they were told that these have been ready since early last year. Also, to show the trend, we waited almost a year from the first official pictures of death guard to when those models went up for sale. Relax, they didn’t shove anything out of the way for this release.
I do agree that xenon sooner than later would be awesome. Kinda tired of killing nothing but imperials and deathguard in my local scene.
Personally I think its terrible from a design concept. AC are another "itsy bitsy" faction with hardly any units or kits. I can't believe they put them out before Orks, let alone all the other major factions who have ACTUAL product lines.
Fafnir wrote: Quite bitter. The level of neglect so many factions are getting while GW decides to introduce a wholly unnecessary new faction is a real kick in the head. Especially since it's just another marine army.
^^
Do you think they can update Eldar in the same amount of kits as Death Guard? Especially when they plan to release all the codexes by summer?
So basically they've released two factions and then ran an update that ties into AoS as well. Aside from those TWO things they're cramming books and specialist games. There isn't TIME to update some of these armies like they should be.
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argonak wrote: Personally I think its terrible from a design concept. AC are another "itsy bitsy" faction with hardly any units or kits. I can't believe they put them out before Orks, let alone all the other major factions who have ACTUAL product lines.
Which is precisely why it is such a reasonable release. Very few kits to fill out a specialized army. It isn't going to need weeks and weeks like Primaris or DG. These models have been ready to go for a very long time.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Oh? Custodes for elite h2h power, IG for chaff and shooting. Seems pretty strong army to me.
Not to go off topic in my own thread, but this is a very bad way to play 40k.
The game rewards doubling down on your strengths. It is a gosh darn terrible idea to have a handful of units that forfill multiple functions and having a hugely expensive custodes unit in a AM army is a terrible idea.
How many people do you see sticking Grey Knights in? Vanguard Space Marines? You can't even find any competative AM lists that have Ogyrns in.
There's is nothing a custodes army can offer me to soup in. I'm not even sure what armies would benefit. And while I see a lot of 'Yay, I get to use my 30k models in 40k' [And while I resent you for the effect it's having on 40k, I can certainly understand feeling you've got double the value of your money, that's a perfectly legitimate reason to be excited.] I've not seen anyone go, 'Yesss! Being able to soup in some Custodes is going to make my list killer.' Even in fluffy games I mean... How many fluff battles take place in the Imperial Palace?
And don't give me GW's new crap of, 'And now we've decided to send the custodes out into the galaxy and abandon terra!' Because that's Primaris level of stupidity, even for the Imperium.
Deployment of the ceremonial guard isn't really that stupid. Terra is already the most power battlefleet in existence, supported by an even more destructive array of orbital defenses, as well as the presence of Mars and Titan in it's system, the Custodians are rather ceremonial in nature, and they're not deploying their entire force anyway.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Independently, they're going to be kind of weedy as a force, and I fear they'll be nonviable as a faction. The last thing we need are a crap-ton of tiny factions that lack the diversity and options to be playable in any way.
40k hasn't been game of mono faction armies for past 2 editions anyway. Mixing&matching factions to maximize effect is the name of the game. So what custodians(even with FW models) aren't independent faction? You aren't expected to play with just them. Grab some IG for chaff and vehicles and maybe some 3rd faction and go.
I mean, yes, but that doesn't exactly make for a very strong army.
Oh? Custodes for elite h2h power, IG for chaff and shooting. Seems pretty strong army to me.
It's not, there's no synergy.
Assuming you're playing a classic Imperial Guard infantry-tank-artillery gunline, any points spent on Custodians would be wasted [to make to mention of what guard units you're trading for those custodians]. They will either move out beyond your lines without support, and get shot down without doing anything, or they will sit in your line as counter-chargers when you'd be better served buying riflemen to just tarpit the enemy. Likewise, as custodians, you're going to want to be fielding more custodians rather than bringing Impy units along for the ride.
As Halsey said, double down on what you're good at. Units bought outside their own faction are generally not performing at peak efficiency, so you're not just paying the exorbitant cost of Custodians, you're paying far more than you're getting from them.
I'm all for it. People expecting tons of new models for old armies need to temper their expectations. I got a hunch that most old armies will be released without much of new units. and that we can expect to see newer armies pushed to the forefront.
orkychaos wrote:Ok. I get everyone has a right to feel the way they do but come on people. Do you really think GW just pulled this out of their hat yesterday? Their development cycle is at least a year long. So this didn’t keep resources from other stuff because these have probably been in production at the plant for 6 months, possibly longer. Also, backing this up, several people from the open day have stated that they were told that these have been ready since early last year. Also, to show the trend, we waited almost a year from the first official pictures of death guard to when those models went up for sale. Relax, they didn’t shove anything out of the way for this release.
I do agree that xenon sooner than later would be awesome. Kinda tired of killing nothing but imperials and deathguard in my local scene.
We have model ranges that go so far back that this shouldn't really affect considerations. A year ago or now, Eldar and Sisters are just as ancient compared to everything as they were before, and Dark Eldar are still rocking an unhealthy amount of finecast. And GW's certainly aware of this. Those hoping for sisters already have to deal with the constant mockery on GW's part as it is.
Fafnir wrote: Quite bitter. The level of neglect so many factions are getting while GW decides to introduce a wholly unnecessary new faction is a real kick in the head. Especially since it's just another marine army.
^^
Do you think they can update Eldar in the same amount of kits as Death Guard? Especially when they plan to release all the codexes by summer?
They don't need the level of expansion that Deathguard got. Hell, it doesn't even need to all be done at once, and we don't even need any new units (Slicing Orbs could be cool, but then again, it's probably best if they're left to imagination). But the Aspect Warriors, one of the most iconic elements of the Eldar faction, need some serious attention (and in the case of Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and especially Striking Scorpions, a bit of a rules overhaul). Not only are these models horribly dated, but they're constant unavailability can make Eldar and similarly treated factions (Sisters...) a nightmare to build.
So basically they've released two factions and then ran an update that ties into AoS as well. Aside from those TWO things they're cramming books and specialist games. There isn't TIME to update some of these armies like they should be.
And there isn't TIME to be releasing new armies are so neglected. Especially when Forgeworld already just released their own damned versions of them. Which goes to further show the disconnect between these two studios, despite the fact that they work in the same damned building. I don't care if GW wanted to do Custodes themselves, then pass off some other neglected faction that they clearly have no interest in to Forgeworld. But putting up with these dual 40k-going-on-30 releases is ridiculous.
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argonak wrote: Personally I think its terrible from a design concept. AC are another "itsy bitsy" faction with hardly any units or kits. I can't believe they put them out before Orks, let alone all the other major factions who have ACTUAL product lines.
Which is precisely why it is such a reasonable release. Very few kits to fill out a specialized army. It isn't going to need weeks and weeks like Primaris or DG. These models have been ready to go for a very long time.
Sisters of Battle could be mostly done with two boxes. That's less than it took for this Custodes release.
Love it, but would rather have seen other armies released first.
Variety is good and I think Custodes add something different to Marines. I guess we are all slightly biased in which armies we'd like to see released/updated first.
Rolsheen wrote: So much joy for two reasons
1. Beautiful new models
2. Xenos whiners heads exploding
Without those xenos players you're basically just playing horus heresy, they deserve as much attention as other factions do.
As much as people keep saying marines sell lets make more marines, they need to update the other factions eventually, which may or may not lead to a poorer financial streak. If they have something awesome lined up for other factions on release, great, otherwise I honestly think new aspect warriors, new necrons warriors, new gaunts, new kroot etc. Would all blow custodes sales out the water. Moreover it's not worth garnering the negative feelsbads in the community.
We've gotten 8 armies(Craftworld, Guard, Mechanicus, Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Death Guard)
9. Dont forget nomnom Nids
I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT NIDS!
So 9 armies, only one of which was really "new"(Death Guard). Space Marines had a new subfaction added into them with the Primaris but anyone arguing that's a new army is full of crap.
Rolsheen wrote: So much joy for two reasons
1. Beautiful new models
2. Xenos whiners heads exploding
Without those xenos players you're basically just playing horus heresy, they deserve as much attention as other factions do.
As much as people keep saying marines sell lets make more marines, they need to update the other factions eventually, which may or may not lead to a poorer financial streak. If they have something awesome lined up for other factions on release, great, otherwise I honestly think new aspect warriors, new necrons warriors, new gaunts, new kroot etc. Would all blow custodes sales out the water. Moreover it's not worth garnering the negative feelsbads in the community.
How would they though?
I want new Xenos stuff - but you know, new Xenos stuff.
I don't really get this idea that re-doing kits would be especially profitable.
I don't think constantly re-doing tactical marines is profitable for people replacing marines, its profitable because its the first kit every 10 year old gets bought and has been for decades.
It is a catch-22 to some degree, people don't pick an army because its full of old kits, but people who have said army are unlikely to rush out to replace them. I mean would Necron players go buy 3 new warrior kits if they were redone? I doubt it - in my experience people have a disproportionate attachment to the models they have owned for decades. What do they want another 30 warriors for? They are never going to use them all in a game. There are some who might (the kind of guy who ends up with 20,000 points worth of Orks for reasons known only to themselves) but thats the exception rather than the rule.
Unless the finecast has clearly had its day (new Greater Daemons for instance justify the word "Greater") I am not sold that replacing it is a great use of resources. People can go on about aspect warriors until blue in the face - but the kits, while ancient, hold up. I have no desire to see a release slot wasted on just re-tooling current Eldar lines. Its a bit like Dark Eldar Wracks - nice that they are in plastic (or would be if they hadn't sucked every edition), but it was almost a 1:1 conversion. Little was really gained.
So today I'd much rather see new Ynnari miniatures than just dark reapers in plastic.
SoB are a possible exception, but only because I assume they would (if they ever get a release) get a full re-imagining. Presumably similar iconography etc, but hopefully it would be a step beyond "what was metal from 2000 is now plastic in 2020". New poses, new units, new models. This might well divide obsessives - but it would be something.
Nevelon wrote: None of the vote options really fit my mood.
I don’t love it, but wish they would have been in an ensemble codex (like agents of the Imperium)
But I don’t hate or resent it.
IMHO the custodes shouldn’t be a full on army. I’m fine with a squad or two being attached to other armies, but this isn’t 30k here. At least they are giving them a decent spread of units to fill their army. I strongly dislike the old one-unit* codexes (imperial knights, scions, etc) If you don’t have something for every FOC slot, you probably don’t need your own book.
So I don’t think it needs to exist, but it looks like they did a decent job on it, and I’m sure lots of people will like it. Minis look nice.
Just not my cup of tea.
Pretty much this. Just seems unnecessary and a bit boring tbh. Mentally filing them with Primaris Marines and returning Primarchs under "bad for the lore; no real interest in playing with or against them."
Personally, I'd have left them in 30K where I think they belong, but it's becoming quite apparent that GW's idea of the direction 40K should go in and mine are pretty far apart these days, so I'll just ignore them and get on with painting/playing with my Orks, Guard and Proper Marines.
Tyel wrote: SoB are a possible exception, but only because I assume they would (if they ever get a release) get a full re-imagining. Presumably similar iconography etc, but hopefully it would be a step beyond "what was metal from 2000 is now plastic in 2020". New poses, new units, new models. This might well divide obsessives - but it would be something.
SOB are a meme at this point. The reason their models languish is because they weren't popular when they were originally released. GW have not invested in them for this reason, they didn't sell then and they (obviously) don't sell now. I very much doubt there would be a mass market for SOB even if the entire line was re-imagined, perhaps a few people that haven't had a chance to buy them would commit but the majority of people in the market who want Sisters, bizarrely, have them already. I might be wrong, this is only my opinion of course, but I would put money on the market for "Bitches with Bolters" being smaller than say, futuristic Elves, or Orks, or Superhuman Soldiers in massive pauldrons. I get the distinct people that so many people are vocal about them just to join in the fun rather than an actual want or need.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm all for it. People expecting tons of new models for old armies need to temper their expectations. I got a hunch that most old armies will be released without much of new units. and that we can expect to see newer armies pushed to the forefront.
much like with AOS
I think you're probably right on this front, much as I wouldn't particularly care for it.
Rolsheen wrote: So much joy for two reasons
1. Beautiful new models
2. Xenos whiners heads exploding
Without those xenos players you're basically just playing horus heresy, they deserve as much attention as other factions do.
As much as people keep saying marines sell lets make more marines, they need to update the other factions eventually, which may or may not lead to a poorer financial streak. If they have something awesome lined up for other factions on release, great, otherwise I honestly think new aspect warriors, new necrons warriors, new gaunts, new kroot etc. Would all blow custodes sales out the water. Moreover it's not worth garnering the negative feelsbads in the community.
This. I don't understand the people complaining about whining xenos player or taking schadenfreude from it. Unless you want to play power armour vs power armour all the time in what will result in basically the same game every time then YOU should be annoyed about the amount of super awesome guys in big armour. It's a detriment to the game that it has so many because it means less variety in opponents for YOU. I can't believe that people are so blind to this fact.
While I'm feel for those whose armies have been pushed back for this, personally I love it as I've been thinking about starting some Custodes but felt that the current offering was a bit small, with only one specific unit as well as the ugly Calth Dreadnought and the standard Land Raider. These new models look fantastic.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm all for it. People expecting tons of new models for old armies need to temper their expectations. I got a hunch that most old armies will be released without much of new units. and that we can expect to see newer armies pushed to the forefront.
much like with AOS
I think you're probably right on this front, much as I wouldn't particularly care for it.
The problem with this idea is that it ignores that many of the "old armies" that get released "without much of new units" actually saw significant overhauls and/or unit additions with their own army books not long before the End Times.
Dark Elves, for example, replaced their elderly Warriors, Dark Riders, and Witch Elves...not to mention the War Hydra and Cold One Chariot.
People are also downplaying the redundancy by claiming we got "another full army"...but it looks like GW is adding Custodes jetbikes, terminators, and HQ and calling it a full codex (i.e. they will have variants of the same unit in each force org slot). Contrast this to the number of choices in say Eldar or even space marines. Heck, at least GK have dreadknights.
Would a more fleshed out custodes army be cool? Yeah, maybe, but doing it before you update armies that people have had for 15 years is kind of insulting. Putting orks or dark eldar back into the meta with a codex is also better for the game as a whole, and the sooner you release a codex the sooner you can release FAQs, tweak balance issues, etc. And on top of that...their financials are looking just fine. They don't need to release an army no one has right now to sell more models at the cost of player good will.
greyknight12 wrote: People are also downplaying the redundancy by claiming we got "another full army"...but it looks like GW is adding Custodes jetbikes, terminators, and HQ and calling it a full codex (i.e. they will have variants of the same unit in each force org slot). Contrast this to the number of choices in say Eldar or even space marines. Heck, at least GK have dreadknights.
Would a more fleshed out custodes army be cool? Yeah, maybe, but doing it before you update armies that people have had for 15 years is kind of insulting. Putting orks or dark eldar back into the meta with a codex is also better for the game as a whole, and the sooner you release a codex the sooner you can release FAQs, tweak balance issues, etc. And on top of that...their financials are looking just fine. They don't need to release an army no one has right now to sell more models at the cost of player good will.
The amount of 'dudes in power-armour' style armies we have right is already at the point of redundancy.
greyknight12 wrote: People are also downplaying the redundancy by claiming we got "another full army"...but it looks like GW is adding Custodes jetbikes, terminators, and HQ and calling it a full codex (i.e. they will have variants of the same unit in each force org slot). Contrast this to the number of choices in say Eldar or even space marines. Heck, at least GK have dreadknights.
Would a more fleshed out custodes army be cool? Yeah, maybe, but doing it before you update armies that people have had for 15 years is kind of insulting. Putting orks or dark eldar back into the meta with a codex is also better for the game as a whole, and the sooner you release a codex the sooner you can release FAQs, tweak balance issues, etc. And on top of that...their financials are looking just fine. They don't need to release an army no one has right now to sell more models at the cost of player good will.
The amount of 'dudes in power-armour' style armies we have right is already at the point of redundancy.
NAH! You need 1 Power Armor army per Xeno and then you need 1 more so they are winning!
I know at least one guy at my club loves 'em, so, I know I'll see em. Which is fine, but just having even biggerer betterer marines is pretty tiresome. Thankfully the models tend to look better than the Grey Knight ones.
As a stand alone force I don't expect it to perform very well. I feel like it's mostly a decorative force than an actual army.
Custodes only have two color options, and should be reserved for terra, or near terra. The models look cool, but the narrative and hobby side are very limited. if it was a new army that made more sense people may have been more receptive.
It would be nicer if they filled currently lacking armies like Skittari, Cult Mechanicus, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins.
Also IG getting modern looking infantry, update armies not in plastic
It's much worse on the AoS side. Very little since 8th, and death and destruction are both in very poor shape. My start collecting Malignants box isn't even battleforged! Meanwhile Stormcast have at least 15 HQs.
orkychaos wrote: Ok. I get everyone has a right to feel the way they do but come on people. Do you really think GW just pulled this out of their hat yesterday? Their development cycle is at least a year long. So this didn’t keep resources from other stuff because these have probably been in production at the plant for 6 months, possibly longer. Also, backing this up, several people from the open day have stated that they were told that these have been ready since early last year. Also, to show the trend, we waited almost a year from the first official pictures of death guard to when those models went up for sale. Relax, they didn’t shove anything out of the way for this release.
It isn't a matter of 'yesterday' or short term plans. It's a matter of opportunity cost- even if they were done a year ago, that took resources that could have been applied to something else. Doing this, or primaris marines or chapter specific primaris upgrade sprues or whatever means that existing ranges continue to be neglected. Considering how few models GW are making these days, it's a pretty big deal. Maybe eldar aspect warriors won't get redone until a new codex in 2020, or orks will stay without fast attack vehicles. You can find things in tau, necrons or whatever army you care about. The cost for custodes is something there didn't/won't happen.
Tyel wrote: SoB are a possible exception, but only because I assume they would (if they ever get a release) get a full re-imagining. Presumably similar iconography etc, but hopefully it would be a step beyond "what was metal from 2000 is now plastic in 2020". New poses, new units, new models. This might well divide obsessives - but it would be something.
SOB are a meme at this point. The reason their models languish is because they weren't popular when they were originally released. GW have not invested in them for this reason, they didn't sell then and they (obviously) don't sell now. I very much doubt there would be a mass market for SOB even if the entire line was re-imagined, perhaps a few people that haven't had a chance to buy them would commit but the majority of people in the market who want Sisters, bizarrely, have them already. I might be wrong, this is only my opinion of course, but I would put money on the market for "Bitches with Bolters" being smaller than say, futuristic Elves, or Orks, or Superhuman Soldiers in massive pauldrons. I get the distinct people that so many people are vocal about them just to join in the fun rather than an actual want or need.
Not sure this is true - its difficult to know quite what happened twenty years ago, but I am not convinced. I think they sold reasonably well. Sister's players were not an alien experience.
But they were expensive even back then.
If the models look good (and they would) and they were reasonably priced and they have good rules - they will sell.
The problem you get into this weird cycle. "We only make new Marines, so people only buy new Marines, so people must just want new Marines."
I mean going back to 1997 I'd feel fairly confident in saying that the second most popular 40k faction was Orks. Possibly by a reasonable distance.
But for some reason all the support for Orks started to leave the game. GW decided they should "play like this" - crap shooting, mob close combat (which often wasn't great), expensive, overcosted toys. There was a release of kits in the 2000s, then a lot of nothing. The 4th edition codex would run on through 5th and 6th edition, largely being crap. Then they got a new codex in 7th, just in time to be codex creeped into oblivion.
Bizarrely, despite only having an index, Orks are probably the most competitive they have been for years (despite a huge number of terrible unit choices).
But is it any surprise that factions GW leaves to die are not popular with the players? Old models, crap rules? You have to be pretty committed to go for it.
Tyel wrote: Not sure this is true - its difficult to know quite what happened twenty years ago, but I am not convinced. I think they sold reasonably well. Sister's players were not an alien experience.
But they were expensive even back then.
If the models look good (and they would) and they were reasonably priced and they have good rules - they will sell.
The problem you get into this weird cycle. "We only make new Marines, so people only buy new Marines, so people must just want new Marines."
I mean going back to 1997 I'd feel fairly confident in saying that the second most popular 40k faction was Orks. Possibly by a reasonable distance.
But for some reason all the support for Orks started to leave the game. GW decided they should "play like this" - crap shooting, mob close combat (which often wasn't great), expensive, overcosted toys. There was a release of kits in the 2000s, then a lot of nothing. The 4th edition codex would run on through 5th and 6th edition, largely being crap. Then they got a new codex in 7th, just in time to be codex creeped into oblivion.
Bizarrely, despite only having an index, Orks are probably the most competitive they have been for years (despite a huge number of terrible unit choices).
But is it any surprise that factions GW leaves to die are not popular with the players? Old models, crap rules? You have to be pretty committed to go for it.
There was one person who had Sisters' models in my area and he had them as a tag on to an IG army. I don't remember playing against them much at all so I'm not sure they were popular. Seems like a lot of stars need to align for them to sell now, I could see the models looking great and having good rules, but being cheap? No chance.
For me, the big question is; "has the playerbase changed significantly, for Sisters to be worthwhile"? When they were released so many years ago, Sisters were extremely niche, but then again there were very few (if any) women I remember playing too. This has changed now, so perhaps they could be more viable than they were way back when? As you say, there is also the effect that GW have themselves on the playerbase, in terms of the quality of releases and what they "push".
I voted resent because it was closest to how i feel about calling custodes "the biggest release". I like the idea of more armies, i like soup imperial/chaos armies but it could have been a ton of outdated armies being re released with needed add ons. The more i think about it they could have done the same thing to pretty much any other line i can think of (except SOS) and i would have been happier. Scions, kroot, DE, white scars, slannesh deamons, non cadian ig, skitari All could use that extra bit of new sculpt, new dex love. Im honestly suprised it was custodes, them and sos aleadys felt strange to me and ive never seen anyone play or paint them in a way that stands out not that thats impossible but i dont see thier hardcore fans screaming for new stuff they would buy
I honestly thought it was going to be noise marines which people would have been iffy on too.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm all for it. People expecting tons of new models for old armies need to temper their expectations. I got a hunch that most old armies will be released without much of new units. and that we can expect to see newer armies pushed to the forefront.
much like with AOS
I think you're probably right on this front, much as I wouldn't particularly care for it.
The problem with this idea is that it ignores that many of the "old armies" that get released "without much of new units" actually saw significant overhauls and/or unit additions with their own army books not long before the End Times.
Dark Elves, for example, replaced their elderly Warriors, Dark Riders, and Witch Elves...not to mention the War Hydra and Cold One Chariot.
I'm talking age of sigmar, not end times specificly. Taking a guess, GW has, through market research, decided that new factions outsell reworks of old units. and even new units for old factions. Let's consider for a moment, ignoring space marines as they are a bit of an outlier here especially. When Admech, death watch, and GSC's came out people would build whole armies of them. when a new devestator kit comes out however, people buy maybe 1 or 2 tops. So I think this reflects the reason for GW's change, it proably has more of an inital cost to introduce a new faction, and there is likely a bit of a greater risk (I'll get back to this in a moment though) but it likely results in, on average, greater profits then new kits (or redone kits) for old armies.
Now getting back to the risk, GW has largely mitigated this risk by picking "low hanging fruit" the new factions they've introduced the last few years, have all been factions that exist in the setting lore already with a built in fanbase, have save death guard all been "Imperial" and thus able to be taken as allies by people with large and varied forces already (even gene stealer cults tap into this to a degree) people who say we need a new xenos army.. I don't entirely disagree. but a GENUINELY new Xenos army is a HUUUGE risk. compared to say... Custodes because there's no built in fanbase.
With that in mind, IF I was going to take a gamble on what the next Xenos army for 40k would be? My guess would be Tau Gue'seva. they could produce a kit or two for basic infantry, maybe a special vehicle or so. and then expan the range by giving them access to a mix of Tau and Imperial guard stuff. So you'd have IG infantry with pulse carbines, working along side lemen russ tanks and tau drones.
THAT IMHO is the lowest hanging fruit on the xenos side of things
There’s enough desire for new models to drive a whole lot of knock off guard and ork companies. It’s strange to me that small companies can do a wide variety of model options while gw just sits on designs from a decade ago.
It's basically another GK style army just 2.0 and very meh. Zealous, elite, crème de la crème. It's only here cause of the 30k craze and abusing despaired GK players that might see that old fire inside the AC dex. They just want your monies basically. What I'm interested in is how many GK players are going to move over to this considering their current situation.
Viridian wrote: It's basically another GK style army just 2.0 and very meh. Zealous, elite, crème de la crème. It's only here cause of the 30k craze and abusing despaired GK players that might see that old fire inside the AC dex. They just want your monies basically. What I'm interested in is how many GK players are going to move over to this considering their current situation.
I was ALREADY using Custodes as Paladins (and fielding a Supreme Command detachment to unlock Grey Knight Stratagems, Relics, e.t.c.). So yeah, all aboard. Being T5 instead of T4 and not paying way too much for fairly terrible psychic access is a huge improvement. That's before these guys even get a codex, terminators, jet bikes, e.t.c.
I quiet like the look of the army, knowing me I'd just get enough to field a small detachment with the two units I've gotten from the big box sets. But was rather disappointed since I love my DE, eldar and skitarri that these yet more new imperial models and army added. Just feel Xenos need alot more love and new models too.
I just don't see the point. It's not really a fully formed army, they don't make a lot of sense to have their own Codex and there are plenty of other armies that still need updating. How many power armoured armies do we need anyway? How long before GW produces an "even more elite, this time they're the most elite, honest, pinky swear" army?
Slipspace wrote: I just don't see the point. It's not really a fully formed army, they don't make a lot of sense to have their own Codex and there are plenty of other armies that still need updating. How many power armoured armies do we need anyway? How long before GW produces an "even more elite, this time they're the most elite, honest, pinky swear" army?
Pretty much this. Not liking the revisions to the fluff (Custodes Armies? Really?)
Imperium Soup is already strong enough. Plus that teaser image (They've waited... etc)... come on GW, that's Necrons. NECRONS.
greyknight12 wrote: People are also downplaying the redundancy by claiming we got "another full army"...but it looks like GW is adding Custodes jetbikes, terminators, and HQ and calling it a full codex (i.e. they will have variants of the same unit in each force org slot). Contrast this to the number of choices in say Eldar or even space marines. Heck, at least GK have dreadknights.
Would a more fleshed out custodes army be cool? Yeah, maybe, but doing it before you update armies that people have had for 15 years is kind of insulting. Putting orks or dark eldar back into the meta with a codex is also better for the game as a whole, and the sooner you release a codex the sooner you can release FAQs, tweak balance issues, etc. And on top of that...their financials are looking just fine. They don't need to release an army no one has right now to sell more models at the cost of player good will.
The amount of 'dudes in power-armour' style armies we have right is already at the point of redundancy.
NAH! You need 1 Power Armor army per Xeno and then you need 1 more so they are winning!
You joke, but...
Space Marines, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Custodes, Sisters.
Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Harlequins, Genestealer Cultists.
We are legitimately at that point if (when) they do something like a full fledged black templar release, or the brand spiffy new super-awesome marines+1+1+1 faction the TRIARIUS MARIIIIIINES for the next edition (Each one a giant 60$ centerpiece kit!)
The only thing that bugs me with the Custodes release is post the webway war there was like.. a 1000 left? So each one that dies is 0.01% of all the custodes in existence.
Facing a army of 20 or 30 coming to kill a bunch of marines just seems insane.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that bugs me with the Custodes release is post the webway war there was like.. a 1000 left? So each one that dies is 0.01% of all the custodes in existence.
Facing a army of 20 or 30 coming to kill a bunch of marines just seems insane.
They keep getting replenished. At the present time there's 8000 left having suffered casualties after 13th black crusade.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that bugs me with the Custodes release is post the webway war there was like.. a 1000 left? So each one that dies is 0.01% of all the custodes in existence.
Facing a army of 20 or 30 coming to kill a bunch of marines just seems insane.
They keep getting replenished. At the present time there's 8000 left having suffered casualties after 13th black crusade.
What fluff justification / how are they replenished? Each custode gene encoding was handcrafted by the big E. Are they suddenly on batch production?
Choose "Resent it...", since that is the closest to "I don't care and there are a lot of other stuff that would have been better"
I think the big thing to keep in mind is that new releases like this take 2+ years from start to finish so what we're seeing now is how well the boxed games with Custodes sold when they came out a couple of years ago. Hopefully we'll start to see better releases in the next year or so that were started by the current management.
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
tneva82 wrote: Ask GW. Guess they decided that when Big G talked to him he told how they are made.
Too scared too ask GW, as sadly I feel I'll get a poorly handled response that will butcher rather then the real answer which is "We'd like some money and a small super elite very nice looking army that is essentially super space marines will make us loads of money, so that's why".
All that said, they look pretty cool and would like to see them across the table top. Death to the False Emperor, Blood for the blood god!
None of the options apply to me. My oppinion on it is
"Great more units to balance out, and factions that never should have/needed an entire codex dedicated to them, given one."
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
Apparently the terminators are supposed to be very good at dealing with hordes. At least based on GW's playtesting.
This information was from an interview at Open Day with a GW rep by Chapter Master Valrak. According to this rep, they had 30 orks fight it out with like 3 or 5 terminators, and they only took 1 terminator down after losing most of the blob.
I suspect it has something to do with those wrist mounted grenade launchers that they apparently have.
They could've done literally anything that wasn't Space Marines (they're not TECHNICALLY but let's be real here) and I've have been content with it. Hell, as overdone as the Imperium as a whole is I would not have minded some mortal factions like say... the Sisters of Battle seeing a release.
Hell, it's not even the 'burly guys with giant pauldrons shooting boltguns' thing that bothers me. It's that they're yet ANOTHER loyalist. If the Vanilla CSMs got the update they so desperately needed I wouldn't have minded so much either.
I know they make bank, but at this point I don't know why GW doesn't just AoS40k into 30k because it's really obvious they'd rather turn the game into Loyalist SM vs 'Loyalist' SM.
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
Apparently the terminators are supposed to be very good at dealing with hordes. At least based on GW's playtesting.
This information was from an interview at Open Day with a GW rep by Chapter Master Valrak. According to this rep, they had 30 orks fight it out with like 3 or 5 terminators, and they only took 1 terminator down after losing most of the blob.
I suspect it has something to do with those wrist mounted grenade launchers that they apparently have.
They always do this though, they take the newst army, and put it up against one of the worst codex in the game to make it look good.
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
Apparently the terminators are supposed to be very good at dealing with hordes. At least based on GW's playtesting.
This information was from an interview at Open Day with a GW rep by Chapter Master Valrak. According to this rep, they had 30 orks fight it out with like 3 or 5 terminators, and they only took 1 terminator down after losing most of the blob.
I suspect it has something to do with those wrist mounted grenade launchers that they apparently have.
They always do this though, they take the newst army, and put it up against one of the worst codex in the game to make it look good.
Are Ork boys really that bad though? I mean, what else could they have used as a horde unit? IG and Hormagants, with T3, one of which have a few number of attacks and low WS?
Tyel wrote: SoB are a possible exception, but only because I assume they would (if they ever get a release) get a full re-imagining. Presumably similar iconography etc, but hopefully it would be a step beyond "what was metal from 2000 is now plastic in 2020". New poses, new units, new models. This might well divide obsessives - but it would be something.
SOB are a meme at this point. The reason their models languish is because they weren't popular when they were originally released. GW have not invested in them for this reason, they didn't sell then and they (obviously) don't sell now. I very much doubt there would be a mass market for SOB even if the entire line was re-imagined, perhaps a few people that haven't had a chance to buy them would commit but the majority of people in the market who want Sisters, bizarrely, have them already. I might be wrong, this is only my opinion of course, but I would put money on the market for "Bitches with Bolters" being smaller than say, futuristic Elves, or Orks, or Superhuman Soldiers in massive pauldrons. I get the distinct people that so many people are vocal about them just to join in the fun rather than an actual want or need.
I'm pretty sure Celestine sold extremely well and she was the centre piece of that box.
Even during their last major release (Witch Hunters) their entire model line, with the exception of a couple of vehicles, were in metal. Even before the age of their beyond absurd price hikes, they were an extremely niche army for that reason. Hell, you almost never saw Grey Knights (Daemonhunters) for that reason as well. Low and behold, the plastic Grey Knights revamp made bank for GW. Their popularity is only falling off now because... shock horror, they've seen as much support as SoB have since then.
The whole 'SoB don't sell well' thing is part of GW's self-fulfilling prophecy; people aren't buying outdated models so we won't release them. We'll release more brand new Marines because people buy them. It's exactly the same nonsense that led to the 'we killed WHFB because it wasn't selling' fallacy. GW didn't support WHFB beyond two books a year, so naturally WHFB didn't sell well. Meanwhile, AoS gets constant support - even if you don't play Sigmarines - and low and behold, it's actually not doing terribly.
I chose "Extremely bitter" as that's my default response to most of what GW does, and it was scummy. But it was still WAAAAAAAY better than releasing those HORRIBLE primaris marines so I just HATE IT WITH A BURNING PASSION.
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
Apparently the terminators are supposed to be very good at dealing with hordes. At least based on GW's playtesting.
This information was from an interview at Open Day with a GW rep by Chapter Master Valrak. According to this rep, they had 30 orks fight it out with like 3 or 5 terminators, and they only took 1 terminator down after losing most of the blob.
I suspect it has something to do with those wrist mounted grenade launchers that they apparently have.
They always do this though, they take the newst army, and put it up against one of the worst codex in the game to make it look good.
Are Ork boys really that bad though? I mean, what else could they have used as a horde unit? IG and Hormagants, with T3, one of which have a few number of attacks and low WS?
Yeah they are that bad, IG and nids have really powerful units that GW does not want their shiny new toys getting dumped on.
Oh no, your custode terminators are chewing up my blob of conscripts, guess ill just walk them outta combat, and enjoy getting shot at by 3 basalisks, Rip custody terminators.
I think it will be interesting to see how well they sell now though since they're likely going to be a super elite small model count army, and generally speaking in 8th, those are the worst armies with the current horde meta.
Apparently the terminators are supposed to be very good at dealing with hordes. At least based on GW's playtesting. This information was from an interview at Open Day with a GW rep by Chapter Master Valrak. According to this rep, they had 30 orks fight it out with like 3 or 5 terminators, and they only took 1 terminator down after losing most of the blob.
I suspect it has something to do with those wrist mounted grenade launchers that they apparently have.
They always do this though, they take the newst army, and put it up against one of the worst codex in the game to make it look good.
Are Ork boys really that bad though? I mean, what else could they have used as a horde unit? IG and Hormagants, with T3, one of which have a few number of attacks and low WS?
Yeah they are that bad, IG and nids have really powerful units that GW does not want their shiny new toys getting dumped on.
Oh no, your custode terminators are chewing up my blob of conscripts, guess ill just walk them outta combat, and enjoy getting shot at by 3 basalisks, Rip custody terminators.
That's not a proper analysis though, as you are factoring in artillery in a test to see if custodes can kill hordes. If you are giving the IG 2 elements, you have to give the custodes another element as well. Like, I could just as easily say the basilisks are engaged with bikes, thus stopping any supporting fire.
Yeah. The strength of Imperial Guard is in the synergy between unit types (lots of shooting and thick screens).
The screens by themselves aren't that great (though they're fairly good!) and the big guns by themselves are comparatively easy to silence without screens (just ask anyone who plays a fluffy, pure armoured company).
The only exception to this rule are the superheavies, but the synergy between the lesser units is good enough to keep the superheavies out of the top spot for IG tournament play, though they're still fantastic.
What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
The rest of the Index sucks, but Ork Boyz with Choppas are good.
Galas wrote: What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
Orks are one of the oldest, most diverse factions in the game, that has basically been reduced to a one-trick pony with no relief in sight.
Yes, Ork Boyz are really good.
But do you really want to compare that against everything that's gone to crap in their army? I wouldn't blame a xenos player for walking away from this game for one second.
Galas wrote: What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
The rest of the Index sucks, but Ork Boyz with Choppas are good.
The caviot you are forgetting is if they get into combat. Again, enjoy getting smacked with artillery while you run up
You have Da Jump for getting into meele. Just like Blodletters where "weak" (Even being mathematically one of the best units in the game) before the DS stratagem.
Galas wrote: What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
Orks are one of the oldest, most diverse factions in the game, that has basically been reduced to a one-trick pony with no relief in sight.
Yes, Ork Boyz are really good.
But do you really want to compare that against everything that's gone to crap in their army? I wouldn't blame a xenos player for walking away from this game for one second.
Of course I didn't even dare to say that Orks as a whole are in a good spot. But Backspacehacker said that Ork Boyz are a bad unit. And I disputed that assertion.
Tau, my primary army, have become a one trick pony too. The release of this Custodes means that I will wait 1-2 months more before I have a Codex. Personally thats not a big deal for me, I just play other armies in the meantime. Or I don't play, and just paint and build.
Galas wrote: You have Da Jump for getting into meele. Just like Blodletters where "weak" (Even being mathematically one of the best units in the game) before the DS stratagem.
Galas wrote: What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
Orks are one of the oldest, most diverse factions in the game, that has basically been reduced to a one-trick pony with no relief in sight.
Yes, Ork Boyz are really good.
But do you really want to compare that against everything that's gone to crap in their army? I wouldn't blame a xenos player for walking away from this game for one second.
Of course I didn't even dare to say that Orks as a whole are in a good spot. But Backspacehacker said that Ork Boyz are a bad unit. And I disputed that assertion.
Tau, my primary army, have become a one trick pony too. The release of this Custodes means that I will wait 1-2 months more before I have a Codex. Personally thats not a big deal for me, I just play other armies in the meantime. Or I don't play, and just paint and build.
Ditto. I'm waiting until the necron and ork codices drop before playing. Which is fine; I still have a lot of crap to finish building and painting.
I'm happy for all those Talons of the Emporer players, but do we really need more levels of special marines?
We have:
1) Space Marines
2) Special Space Marines (Primaris)
3) Special Special Space Marines (Death Watch)
4) Special Special Special Space Marines (Grey Knights)
5) Special Special Special Special Space Marines (Custodes)
It seems every few years some guy in GW gets the bright idea 'What if we created a faction that was space marines with new models and higher point costs? I bet that would make lots of money!'
It wouldn't bug me so much if it hadn't been for the teaser. The teaser gave us hope for Xenos and that was just wrong.
And yes I know...
6) Unloved by their maker Space Marines (Sisters of Battle)
Galas wrote: Of course I didn't even dare to say that Orks as a whole are in a good spot. But Backspacehacker said that Ork Boyz are a bad unit. And I disputed that assertion.
Tau, my primary army, have become a one trick pony too. The release of this Custodes means that I will wait 1-2 months more before I have a Codex. Personally thats not a big deal for me, I just play other armies in the meantime. Or I don't play, and just paint and build.
Ahh yes, I missed that part. The problem I always have with building and painting for upcoming releases is knowing what's going to change to know what I will want to build.
Galas wrote: What? Is people saying that Ork Boyz are that bad? They are the best meele-horde unit in the game (Maybe bloodletters have take that spot after the DS stratagem) and one of the best troops in the game.
Orks are one of the oldest, most diverse factions in the game, that has basically been reduced to a one-trick pony with no relief in sight.
Yes, Ork Boyz are really good.
But do you really want to compare that against everything that's gone to crap in their army? I wouldn't blame a xenos player for walking away from this game for one second.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Honestly, after this announcement, I wouldn't blame every xenos player in the game for quitting.
GW releases a splinter faction, that's barely been around for 1 edition (?) instead of Orks, Necrons, Tau or Dark Eldar.
Thank you xenos players for joining us in playing Imperial/Chaos 40k, your patience and tolerance is amazing and GW doesn't deserve you as customers.
LOL, you only need to look at the 40k facebook page to see the growing frustration with GW. The salt pile is growing and starting to get murky as imperium scum are starting to notice the overwhelming pandering. Or it could be they are noticing xenos players are not showing up to game nights as frequently.
I know my meta is suffering from 30k syndrome. Several exclusively xenos players are showing up with less frequency. Those with options are playing imperium or chaos.
Let's first try to focus on the positives - as with the Mechanicus, the design of these new models to me looks good, it fits with the original concepts and aesthetics compared to stuff like the non-basic primaris marines (basic are excellent). Is 40k as envisioned, let's say.
Differently from the AdMech, though, that is a big organisation in personal union with the Empire (and counts as imperial for any intent and purpose.. kinda), the Custodes in the fluff are very focused. Not only in their number, but in the scope of their mission. I would have preferred them as a 0-1 per inquisitor choice in a mixed imperial agents / special snowflakes codex, TBH. I can only see logically an Inquisitor to have the authority to gather an handful of these mighty warriors for a specific mission. But in such ideal world, only member of such "agents" codex would mix with other imperial armies, a bit like in third edition. Such ideal situation is very different from the sales-driven one GW envisioned, I am afraid.
It's like GW think that if they just put bigger dudes in bigger armour with bigger pauldrons they will make a killing.
But wait, these dudes have GOLD ARMOUR and THE EAGLE (sign of the Emperor, blessed be his name) on their pauldrons!!! Hype x 100000!
GW have 2 options now, they release some new Xenos models (and whoever they don't release will be pissed, apart from maybe Tau players) next or they just go all in and feth the Xenos players in favour of trying to get more new blood.
AaronWilson wrote: The only thing that bugs me with the Custodes release is post the webway war there was like.. a 1000 left? So each one that dies is 0.01% of all the custodes in existence.
Facing a army of 20 or 30 coming to kill a bunch of marines just seems insane.
Worse than that. Each one is 0.1%
When ten die you've lost one percent of the remaining custodes.
It seems every few years some guy in GW gets the bright idea 'What if we created a faction that was space marines with new models and higher point costs? I bet that would make lots of money!'
If it was about making money surely low points costs would be better?
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TwinPoleTheory wrote: Honestly, after this announcement, I wouldn't blame every xenos player in the game for quitting.
GW releases a splinter faction, that's barely been around for 1 edition (?) instead of Orks, Necrons, Tau or Dark Eldar.
Thank you xenos players for joining us in playing Imperial/Chaos 40k, your patience and tolerance is amazing and GW doesn't deserve you as customers.
As I've said - I just hope this is them stalling because they realised that Orks and Tau (and Necrons to a lesser extent) needed heavily re-working from the indexes.
So the benefit to horde armies is not that they are better in combat or shooting, but that with as killy as this edition is when you lose 20 models in a turn, is your army all but crippled or did you just lose a bit of bubble wrap? An IG/Ork/Nid army that loses 20 models is over joyed because even if some of those 20 were tanks, walkers, or monstrous creatures odds are good that point wise it was under 500pts. We'll use the Deathwing as a counter example, 20 models later, even if all of the losses are troops that DW player is out close to 1000 points and their army is crippled.
Those 30 orks were likely not significantly more points than the one Custodes Terminator they killed.
Separate topic that came up of SOB getting new models and Celestine selling well, etc. Please keep in mind that Celestine came out last year, so lets assume she sold so well that GW decides to do an entire new SoB line. It takes around 2 years for something like that to be developed, sculpted, the molds made, be produced, and then finally hit retail. So if in like 1-2 years you don't see a new SoB line, then yeah, it's time to get upset. The decision to make Custodes their own faction was likely made when they started selling so well in the "board games" they released that included the models, which I think was like a year and a half to two years ago. (If someone has the release dates, please correct me) So their release was maybe a bit faster than normal but at the same time a lot of the range was already created for those "board games" so that likely cut some time off.
I like having plastic jetbikes. I reckon they will be around £45 for 3, so thats a great alternative to forgeworld's bikes. Swap the weapon mounts for vents and pop a weapon in the top vent, and you have a heavy weapon jetbike!
vonjankmon wrote: So if in like 1-2 years you don't see a new SoB line, then yeah, it's time to get upset.
15 years is almost twice the time it took to design and build the first rocket that BROUGHT PEOPLE SAFELY TO THE MOON AND BACK so no I'm upset already deal with it.
vonjankmon wrote: The decision to make Custodes their own faction was likely made when they started selling so well in the "board games" they released that included the models, which I think was like a year and a half to two years ago. (If someone has the release dates, please correct me) So their release was maybe a bit faster than normal but at the same time a lot of the range was already created for those "board games" so that likely cut some time off.
This doesn't change the fact that it really alienates xenos players that already have entire lines of models already produced, available, painted and ready to field. It basically tells those customers that their investment in time, effort and money means very little to them, certainly not enough to provide them a competitive or at least comparable rule set.
vonjankmon wrote: The decision to make Custodes their own faction was likely made when they started selling so well in the "board games" they released that included the models, which I think was like a year and a half to two years ago. (If someone has the release dates, please correct me) So their release was maybe a bit faster than normal but at the same time a lot of the range was already created for those "board games" so that likely cut some time off.
This doesn't change the fact that it really alienates xenos players that already have entire lines of models already produced, available, painted and ready to field. It basically tells those customers that their investment in time, effort and money means very little to them, certainly not enough to provide them a competitive or at least comparable rule set.
Look, I know "Right now" is the only answer as to when everyone gets a codex is all that some people will accept but every army getting a codex within a year of a new edition is so good that I would have *never* taken it as a bet prior to 8th edition and the "new" GW. 4-5 more months and you will have a codex for whatever army you play, it's blindingly quick for GW.
The board games that GW did were tests to see what would sell and what wouldn't. If the DE speeder game had sold like gangbusters I can promise you we would be seeing new models for the Dark Eldar at this point. People may not like it but GW is going to try and maximize profits to sell what they think people want to buy. I think a lot of the time they're being short sighted as something that may not sell super well could sell well enough but bring new players into your game and expand your player base, which in the long term results in more profits than you would have gotten from just making a "hot" army but the reality there is that making that distinction is tough. I think SoB, a new Xenos race, or a major update to a more dated existing xenos race could bring new players into the game but it's a gamble and up until recently GW was not willing to gamble as their market share was deteriorating quickly. Now that they're doing well give them a year or two to see if they take some more gambles, those decisions are being made now.
vonjankmon wrote: Look, I know "Right now" is the only answer as to when everyone gets a codex is all that some people will accept but every army getting a codex within a year of a new edition is so good that I would have *never* taken it as a bet prior to 8th edition and the "new" GW. 4-5 more months and you will have a codex for whatever army you play, it's blindingly quick for GW.
I agree, most of the time, I'd write this off as over-entitled whining, but as a Chaos player I am literally looking at the fact that *every* one of my factions will have a full codex before xenos factions that have been around for 30 years get their first.
I'm sorry, that's just crap, it's basically telling those players that they simply aren't important to the game, the community, to the hobby.
vonjankmon wrote: Look, I know "Right now" is the only answer as to when everyone gets a codex is all that some people will accept but every army getting a codex within a year of a new edition is so good that I would have *never* taken it as a bet prior to 8th edition and the "new" GW. 4-5 more months and you will have a codex for whatever army you play, it's blindingly quick for GW.
I agree, most of the time, I'd write this off as over-entitled whining, but as a Chaos player I am literally looking at the fact that *every* one of my factions will have a full codex before xenos factions that have been around for 30 years get their first.
I'm sorry, that's just crap, it's basically telling those players that they simply aren't important to the game, the community, to the hobby.
Agreed the fact eldar are not getting love speaks a lot.
I am very much looking forward to this release, when I started the game I was very much interested in the Custodes and they've been something where I want all the lore I can manage on them.
I've already gotten all 3 of their FW Dreads and two of the tanks, so I'm invested already, and hope we get some of the FW tanks for 40k.
The problem is that Orks arnt really a horde army anymore. Sure our boyz are good but that's it... if I wanted a trukk or walker army it would be cheaper to feild more rhinos or dreadnoughts some how... so by the time I've made a horde of anything other than boyz my opponent has just as many troops of the same type but better. Even with ork boyz... an IG player could afford just as many troops to buffer the boyz while still having the points to afford the big guns to decimate the boyz... da jump is overrated as many factions have just as efficient and effective deep strikes (genestealer can basically run across the table turn 1). There is no guarantee for a successful charge that turn, plus it can only be used once per turn and any smart player would learn to cover all deepstrike spots up and snipe the weirdboy turn 2.
It all depends on the points I geuss... the AC terminators should be worth about 100-200pts each if only one or two can blow 100-200 pts off the table a turn.
Primark G wrote: Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.
So are Tau, the problem is Tau in 8th needs to be really aggressive not shooting in the back. Like seriously the ghost keel, is terrorfying, deep strike and getting smacked with like 4 fusion blasters is a quick way to make a knight cry.
Martel732 wrote: Eldar are better than any single Imperium book bar IG. I'm not convinced yet that Imperium soup is actually better than mono-IG.
Give them time, they keep adding full Imperial Codices at this rate, I'm sure something will click.
As for the Eldar, honestly, they better be, because when it's all said and done, it's looking as if it will be (maybe) 2 Eldar codices vs upwards of 10 Imperial Codices and 4-6 Chaos Codices.
So apparently they can smack a horde pretty well.. for what they will likely cost if each one of them isn't smacking five or six a turn on average - thats both combat phases so 10-12 per game turn in combat, plus 3-4 a turn as they move in then not seeing the point of that.
Besides, they don't come over as a "horde killing" army, the Imperium has plenty of crowd control options.
My main concern though is how they handle mortal wounds basically dropping them like flies?
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
At least Orks can generally take the hits for a round or two
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Probably Magnus, has like a 50% chance to do 2d6 mortal wounds, normally does d6 if he manifests below a 10
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Probably Magnus, has like a 50% chance to do 2d6 mortal wounds, normally does d6 if he manifests below a 10
Yeah just more psykers. Imperium armies can be pretty well protected by a few decent psykers of their own plus a well placed Culexus which is why I'm not too worried (face Morty and Maggy regularly).
leopard wrote: So apparently they can smack a horde pretty well.. for what they will likely cost if each one of them isn't smacking five or six a turn on average - thats both combat phases so 10-12 per game turn in combat, plus 3-4 a turn as they move in then not seeing the point of that.
Besides, they don't come over as a "horde killing" army, the Imperium has plenty of crowd control options.
My main concern though is how they handle mortal wounds basically dropping them like flies?
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
At least Orks can generally take the hits for a round or two
The real test is going to be how well they survive against massed low str firepower - FRFSRF will likely murk them. I assume the terms are going to be 2+/4++ with 3 wounds t4 and probably upwards of 60 points. Plasma isn't that great against it but dark reapers will murk them.
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Fliers dropping bombs and other special abilities mostly - I also tend to cause a fair few using Tyranids.
Smite isn't all its cracked up to be really as its too easy to avoid, the "I fly over you and do mortal wounds, no you can't mitigate this" units are the main source to me
The real test is going to be how well they survive against massed low str firepower - FRFSRF will likely murk them. I assume the terms are going to be 2+/4++ with 3 wounds t4 and probably upwards of 60 points. Plasma isn't that great against it but dark reapers will murk them.
Theyll be at least T5 3W like regular rank and file Custodes, possibly T6 which would make them hard as nails vs Reapers and lasguns. I would imagine that and/or 4 wounds.
leopard wrote: So apparently they can smack a horde pretty well.. for what they will likely cost if each one of them isn't smacking five or six a turn on average - thats both combat phases so 10-12 per game turn in combat, plus 3-4 a turn as they move in then not seeing the point of that.
Besides, they don't come over as a "horde killing" army, the Imperium has plenty of crowd control options.
My main concern though is how they handle mortal wounds basically dropping them like flies?
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
At least Orks can generally take the hits for a round or two
The real test is going to be how well they survive against massed low str firepower - FRFSRF will likely murk them. I assume the terms are going to be 2+/4++ with 3 wounds t4 and probably upwards of 60 points. Plasma isn't that great against it but dark reapers will murk them.
Guessing T5, 3W, not that T5 v T4 matters much to IG, but throw in a 2+ save and they will still take a bit of shifting.
have had gene stealers throwing dice by the bucket fall flat against units like that.
The issue with them won't be so much how robust they are against lasguns, it will be they simply won't kill enough guys with lasguns themselves for it to matter
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Fliers dropping bombs and other special abilities mostly - I also tend to cause a fair few using Tyranids.
Smite isn't all its cracked up to be really as its too easy to avoid, the "I fly over you and do mortal wounds, no you can't mitigate this" units are the main source to me
I fielded Custodes once and had them get wrecked by 4-5 Wave Serpent blitz dropping mortal wounds on them all. Wrecked my frontline. If you guys don't mind me contributing an example outside psyker powers.
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
The only significant MW sources I face are psykers or mortarion, as well as the odd special-snowflake melee weapon or sniper rifle. Just a product of my gaming group I think. Mind if I ask what sources of plentiful MW you often face?
Fliers dropping bombs and other special abilities mostly - I also tend to cause a fair few using Tyranids.
Smite isn't all its cracked up to be really as its too easy to avoid, the "I fly over you and do mortal wounds, no you can't mitigate this" units are the main source to me
I fielded Custodes once and had them get wrecked by 4-5 Wave Serpent blitz dropping mortal wounds on them all. Wrecked my frontline. If you guys don't mind me contributing an example outside psyker powers.
Its basically this sort of thing, no you won't face it every game, and yes with 3W each they can mitigate it to a level, but to me they are not an army, they are a detachment that supports an army
I expect they will utterly excel in APOC scale games where one team member has them and uses them as a strike force to support an actual army, countering the enemies strike force.
I have 15 of them there, benefits of two copies of Prospero for the MkIII models I guess so have the core of a small force.
Can't see me using them much is causal play, due to the issues above, but can see them running occasionally.
I'm seeing them as a bit like a ww2 Tiger list, just because your opponent knows you have them will change how they build armies and just may help my orks etc
One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
leopard wrote: So apparently they can smack a horde pretty well.. for what they will likely cost if each one of them isn't smacking five or six a turn on average - thats both combat phases so 10-12 per game turn in combat, plus 3-4 a turn as they move in then not seeing the point of that.
Besides, they don't come over as a "horde killing" army, the Imperium has plenty of crowd control options.
My main concern though is how they handle mortal wounds basically dropping them like flies?
Can perhaps run SS for anti-smite stuff, but then thats not the most prolific source of MW around here.
At least Orks can generally take the hits for a round or two
The real test is going to be how well they survive against massed low str firepower - FRFSRF will likely murk them. I assume the terms are going to be 2+/4++ with 3 wounds t4 and probably upwards of 60 points. Plasma isn't that great against it but dark reapers will murk them.
I wouldn't be too worried about lasguns, FRFSRF or no. A T5 W3 2+sv model is gonna need 108 BS4+ Lasgun shots to kill on average, flashlights are not going to be terribly effective at killing Custodes.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.
I tend to agree honestly, but I've a fools hope we'll turn out to be wrong. we know that even standard custodes troops can with a velexia have a bubble effect so..
BrianDavion wrote: One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.
I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)
Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:
1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units
This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.
That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.
Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.
I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)
Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:
1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units
This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.
That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.
Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.
As I said ultimately the synergy is simply sometimes a matter of the whole being greater then the sum of it's parts.
if for example the jet bikes synergize with the custodes and terminators to create a powerful "hammer and anvil" effect.
stratgiums, war lord traits etc. these could all allow a custodes list to hit above it's weight level.
Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".
SilverAlien wrote: Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".
Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)
SilverAlien wrote: Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".
Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)
Hmm yeah I wouldnt call that synergy. Thats just one unit buffing another. Its the basic function/reason for the cost of the commissar and the reason you (used to) bring one.
Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".
True enough I'd say, the best units in 40k are just the ones that can kill the most for the least amount of points at the end of the day. You can always bring it back to points cost to balance just about anything.
SilverAlien wrote: Well... no. Not in 8e. This is a very basic system, and you need a certain level of depth not present for that to occur. I can't think of a single army that I would say fits the idea of "more than a sum of its parts".
Imperial Guard comes to mind. I'd argue pre-nerf conscripts + Comissar where a GREAT example of synergy in action. (so great that it got nerfed)
Hmm yeah I wouldnt call that synergy. Thats just one unit buffing another. Its the basic function/reason for the cost of the commissar and the reason you (used to) bring one.
it was just one example of a fairly obvious bit of synergy. you see real synergy in the codexes that individualy the units are just alright (useally hyper specialized) but when taken together become really good. the ideal synergistic codex is one that dominates but no one can look at a single thing that needs to be nerfed. it's just that god because the rules work together so well.
IG I suspect is the best example of that this edition. or maybe eldar.
vonjankmon wrote: So if in like 1-2 years you don't see a new SoB line, then yeah, it's time to get upset.
15 years is almost twice the time it took to design and build the first rocket that BROUGHT PEOPLE SAFELY TO THE MOON AND BACK so no I'm upset already deal with it.
Yeah, given almost two decades where they were willing to chance it on Admech and GSC, and then troll us with Sisters of fething Silence, we're way past time.
That said, I'm mostly just numb about it at this point.
Great idea – wrong time. Personally, I feel like the better choice would have been to use them and something like SoS and SoB as a “grand” ending to the codex releases/opening to 40k 8.1.
As for the video. Not seen it, but the whole “Watched and waited” tag line, for me, really doesn’t match the Custodes. Sure, they’ve watched (guarded the Palance) the Imperium pass by, but wait? They’d still be sat around on Terra with their thumbs up their arrrses if BobbyG hadn’t come back and told them to get involved. I’d hardly call that “acting on something they’ve been waiting for”.
Does seem like a little bit of an over hype.
BrianDavion wrote: One thing to consider is how the units will all synergize together. Custodes are going to be only the second codex (after death guard) specificly DESIGNED for 8th edition. so it could very much be a "Greater then the sum of it's parts" deal
Errr... death guard don't have amazing synergy as an army. It has a lot of characters with a lot of auras, but pricing and the general mediocrity of both the auras and base units mean it is hardly impressive. I wouldn't expect custodes to stand out particularly as this is very much an edition designed to punish elite armies, and unless they are dishing out Robby G level auras there is only so much they can do.
I don't think he meant just aura buffs when talking about synergy (did you Brian? I dunno...)
Think about the core components of a strong 8th edition gunline army:
1. Weak chaff for screening and area denial/objective holding
2. Powerful, long range shooting units to deal the bulk of the damage to the enemy
3. Fast moving, hard hitting 'linebacker' units to eliminate threats/collect distant objectives
4. Effective buffing mechanisms to amplify output/durability of powerful units
This is for a shooty, semi mobile line army, adjust for your armies playstyle. Each unit in the army must fill 1 or more of the above roles, and once all roles are filled the elements add up to a powerful and resilient 'system' designed to be victorious in 40k games. This is what an army with synergy means.
That said - I don't believe you will see much synergy from the custodes range. You pay a lot of points for powerful close combat ability. Aside from the jetbikes, eveything will be pretty slow. Already this is not a good recipe no matter what edition you're playing. Units are expensive (obviously) so you won't have many of them, and will therefore require a single unit to fulfil several roles well. Most of the custodes range will be pretty one dimensional from the looks of them, not much different from the basic custodian guardsman in terms of utility on the table top.
Therefore, the relative competitiveness of the custodes codex will depend simply on points cost - will we be getting enough durability and offensive power for the points paid to overcome the obvious deficiencies? Time will tell. The cost of the jetbike will be key as I mentioned, as these will be our only real mobile unit, and with the hurricane bolters may be our best way to deal with mass light infantry.
As I said ultimately the synergy is simply sometimes a matter of the whole being greater then the sum of it's parts.
if for example the jet bikes synergize with the custodes and terminators to create a powerful "hammer and anvil" effect.
stratgiums, war lord traits etc. these could all allow a custodes list to hit above it's weight level.
In terms of unit/army synergy, I hope, from a fluff point of view, it is limited. For example, a big deal about the way Custodes fight was made in the Burning of Prospero book. The Space Wolves noted how, while they fight together as a “unit”, each Custode fought alone, un-supported by their brothers. It was a big point of difference between them and the Legions (especially Wolves).
I also fear slightly for their release. Custodes are going to be tough individually to take out, but, in order to be that tough they are going to be very expensive points wise. I’m thinking at least Centurion level of points at a minimum, for things like the Terminators. Anything less is going to require some points adjustments in lots of places. But, once they get to those sorts of points levels they will have the same problems as all the other similar units. It doesn’t matter to me at all, if a 300+ point unit is stuck mid board getting tar-pitted over and over again by low cost units, whilst taking smites/MWs every turn – not to mention all the shooting. Sure, they will prob get to deep-strike, but, which such a small army they’ll get split up and denied relatively easily.
Primark G wrote: Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.
The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.
The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.
Primark G wrote: Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.
The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.
The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.
It's a strange attitude that people have when they feel lile a factions "deserves" to be terrible because they were formerly over powered. You'd think people would understand that every codex being good is good for the game. It's a very childish attitude to say that a faction should be terrible because you got in a huff with them once.
Primark G wrote: Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.
The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.
The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.
I disagree due to the many OP formations had plus they could spam BS for troops. They were just not a fun army to play against back then.
Primark G wrote: Eldar and Tau got lots of love throughout 6th and 7th editions - it is nice to see the power swinging back again.
The Riptide got lots of love in 6th and 7th edition, not the Tau.
The Tau had Broadside Railguns become weaker than space marine portable lascannons (which of course remained just as effective as their vehicle versions), we had Devilfish still remaining overcosted, we had our army further drift from its core concept of combined, mobile arms to a static gunline.
It's a strange attitude that people have when they feel lile a factions "deserves" to be terrible because they were formerly over powered. You'd think people would understand that every codex being good is good for the game. It's a very childish attitude to say that a faction should be terrible because you got in a huff with them once.
What I meant was actually what you just said. There is more external balance between race IMO.
What OP formations did the Tau have that did not include a Riptide as a main component?
Also, the reason they weren't fun was precisely due to GW making them a gunline force. If the Tau played as they should then they'd have been an army which was constantly moving, so opposing players would have to utilise movement to isolate and destroy individual elements of the Tau army. However, due to awful game design by GW which has consistently reduced the tactics of movement to basically "move into range and attack", that is not how the Tau actually played.
One was Hunter Cadre. Npbody would play Tau players in pickup games back then in those days. I haven't even mentioned Ghostkeels, Stormsurges or Taunar.
Primark G wrote: One was Hunter Cadre. Npbody would play Tau players in pickup games back then in those days.
A hunter cadre which would pretty much invariably have Riptides.
Nobody complained that Tau were boring to play against in 5th, or that crisis suits being able to JSJ was OP. All the complaints about OP Tau began with the introduction of the undercosted Riptide.
The "Gundamization" of Tau has been really unfortunate. It used to be they were a mechanized infantry skimmer tank army with Starship Troopers style power armor suits in support. Now they're increasingly a Big Robot army, the last 6 or so years have been about pushing stuff like the old Hammerheads out to make room for yet more Gundams.
And I say that as someone who has watched just about every Gundam
The Riptide was a really unhealthy addition for the faction I feel, it became a crutch for 4 years and many of the older units were made or otherwise became much less viable.
Vaktathi wrote: The "Gundamization" of Tau has been really unfortunate. It used to be they were a mechanized infantry skimmer tank army with Starship Troopers style power armor suits in support. Now they're increasingly a Big Robot army, the last 6 or so years have been about pushing stuff like the old Hammerheads out to make room for yet more Gundams.
And I say that as someone who has watched just about every Gundam
The Riptide was a really unhealthy addition for the faction I feel, it became a crutch for 4 years and many of the older units were made or otherwise became much less viable.
Not going to lie, a colony drop stratagem would be pretty legit.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: It's interesting 83% of the playerbase would rather GW hadn't done this, in varying degrees of severity.
sure and thats because 83% of the community would proably have prefered a codex for their army to come first.
the remaining 15% of the community are proably planning on building a custodes army. and honestly, if 15% of of the 40k population builds custodes as even a auxillery army? that's a pretty good chunk of people.
Assuming most people who are intreasted will build a smallish army. we can proably assume everyone will buy an HQ or two, a unit of the bikes and the terminators (most people already likely have the basic infantry)
BrianDavion wrote: sure and thats because 83% of the community would proably have prefered a codex for their army to come first.
My concern is that a number of my friends who have returned to the game optimistically chose to play xenos factions assuming that they might actually get treated like contributing customers instead of bastard stepchildren.
They have been summarily disabused of this notion. This is Imperial/Chaos 40k, anyone else is playing a lesser version of the game.
I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.
Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.
Audustum wrote: I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.
Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.
Eldar are in the best position, without a doubt. However, at the end of the day, you will be able to choose units from 2 *maybe* 3 codices to fill out your list.
Chaos will choose from 4-6 codices at least.
Imperial will choose from upwards of 10.
Everyone else will get 1, once GW is done building the Imperial/Chaos library of codices.
There are some good people I know who are excited, so, I am excited for them. Although, I feel that other armies - such as Necrons - would really benefit from a new codex.
In fact at this point, unless you can magically delete the GK codex and start over with it, i would say that Necrons should be first in line.
Audustum wrote: I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.
Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.
Eldar are in the best position, without a doubt. However, at the end of the day, you will be able to choose units from 2 *maybe* 3 codices to fill out your list.
Chaos will choose from 4-6 codices at least.
Imperial will choose from upwards of 10.
Everyone else will get 1, once GW is done building the Imperial/Chaos library of codices.
Thanks for playing.
Imperium obviously has most options, though some of that is illusory. Various SM books have mostly the same copy pasted units. Still, way more than the others.
Anyway, I think it would be a good idea to expand the 'families' of other factions when possible. This is why I don't want to see a completely separate new xenos race. If a new xenos army would be added, I'd prefer it to be one that shares an overarching faction with another xenos army. Eldar already have this, and could be expanded with more Ynnari or Exodites. Tau obviously are well suited for this sort of expansion too. A full Kroot, Vespid or some other xenos army that is affiliated with the Tau, but can be fielded on their own too. Chaos could also use a separate chaos cult/rebel guard faction as a full main GW supported faction.
Crimson wrote: Imperium obviously has most options, though some of that is illusory. Various SM books have mostly the same copy pasted units. Still, way more than the others.
Honestly, if they had stuck with their somewhat established pattern of the past few months, a couple Chaos/Imperial codices, followed by a couple Xenos codices, I wouldn't be as annoyed. But they just released 3 Imperial/Chaos codices, decided not to release any Xenos codices, then compounded the issue by releasing a codex for a completely niche faction of the Imperium while not addressing long-standing huge army factions.
If I played xenos, I would be pissed, legitimately, considering selling my stuff on ebay, pissed. GW just flat-out demonstrated their utter disdain for a huge chunk of their community.
Crimson wrote: Imperium obviously has most options, though some of that is illusory. Various SM books have mostly the same copy pasted units. Still, way more than the others.
Honestly, if they had stuck with their somewhat established pattern of the past few months, a couple Chaos/Imperial codices, followed by a couple Xenos codices, I wouldn't be as annoyed. But they just released 3 Imperial/Chaos codices, decided not to release any Xenos codices, then compounded the issue by releasing a codex for a completely niche faction of the Imperium while not addressing long-standing huge army factions.
If I played xenos, I would be pissed, legitimately, considering selling my stuff on ebay, pissed. GW just flat-out demonstrated their utter disdain for a huge chunk of their community.
I really do not fathom how anyone could be anything more than 'mildly annoyend' about that. All major factions will have their codices within couple of months anyway, so I really don't think the exact order is a particularly huge deal.
I would posit that the idea that GW sees a marked demographic split of "xenos" and "Imperial" players, and that an Eldar or Tau player should feel more strongly about Necrons or Orks getting a book than Custodes, is probably not something that occurs to them. That level of partisanship, particularly on those lines, isn't really that huge a thing. Most Ork players aren't going to care about Tyranid updates, much the same way an IG or Blood Angels player isn't going to see Custodes as being "their" update just because its broadly "Imperial". I certainly dont.
It would have been nice to see another army updated, and Custodes are seemingly the ultimate incarnation of what multiple other armies already try to do, but lets not make it out like GW is being intentionally biased against nonhuman fantasy armies and intentionally hating on players based on what species their faction is. To them, it was an easy release during a slow sales time that required minimal investment, and probably not much more than that to it.
Crimson wrote: Imperium obviously has most options, though some of that is illusory. Various SM books have mostly the same copy pasted units. Still, way more than the others.
Honestly, if they had stuck with their somewhat established pattern of the past few months, a couple Chaos/Imperial codices, followed by a couple Xenos codices, I wouldn't be as annoyed. But they just released 3 Imperial/Chaos codices, decided not to release any Xenos codices, then compounded the issue by releasing a codex for a completely niche faction of the Imperium while not addressing long-standing huge army factions.
If I played xenos, I would be pissed, legitimately, considering selling my stuff on ebay, pissed. GW just flat-out demonstrated their utter disdain for a huge chunk of their community.
I really do not fathom how anyone could be anything more than 'mildly annoyend' about that. All major factions will have their codices within couple of months anyway, so I really don't think the exact order is a particularly huge deal.
I don't eaither. As others have said, despite the idea some people have that Imperium is all one big super faction... few of us play that. It's easier to start a small side army when playing IoM true as I can buy a space marine captain, some taticals and deploy em along side a bigger guard army. but generally speaking a blood angel release isn't of intreast to an ultramarines player. just for example
Audustum wrote: I mean, Craftworld we're definitely not bastard step children and I saw plenty of Tau in tournaments in 7th so it's not like there is a tradition of that. Craftworld are out and strong again now too. Even the Dark Eldar people had some bright spots running Ynnari.
Or by Xenos did you mean Orks/Necrons? Cause that's a bit different then all Xenos.
Correction: Harlequins and CWE had bright spots running Ynnari. The last time Dark Eldar have been actually decent in tournaments in any form was the venomspam meta.
Even Ynnari almost exclusively used CWE in 7th and CWE+harlequins while it existed in 8th.
as a xenos only player, another imperium army feels meh, they all kind of blend together at this point. I would have loved to see my armies updated (duh) especially since tau didnt see anything from CA, but a new army would have been sweet too!
reading about tau BS in 7th makes me really wish I didnt skip that edition :(
Crimson wrote: Imperium obviously has most options, though some of that is illusory. Various SM books have mostly the same copy pasted units. Still, way more than the others.
Honestly, if they had stuck with their somewhat established pattern of the past few months, a couple Chaos/Imperial codices, followed by a couple Xenos codices, I wouldn't be as annoyed. But they just released 3 Imperial/Chaos codices, decided not to release any Xenos codices, then compounded the issue by releasing a codex for a completely niche faction of the Imperium while not addressing long-standing huge army factions.
If I played xenos, I would be pissed, legitimately, considering selling my stuff on ebay, pissed. GW just flat-out demonstrated their utter disdain for a huge chunk of their community.
I really do not fathom how anyone could be anything more than 'mildly annoyend' about that. All major factions will have their codices within couple of months anyway, so I really don't think the exact order is a particularly huge deal.
Spotted the guy whose factions have codexes already.
IF the gulf between index and codex wasn't so vast, IF chapter approved had actually given anything of substance to the have-nots, IF the dominant factions weren't so massively alpha-strikey table you in 2 turns while you can do nothing, you'd have a point. But those things are all true, and if Chapter Approved weren't intended to tide over factions like Dark Eldar for the 4 months they had to wait, then what was it actually for? (hint, the answer is "a cash grab based on the fantasy that it would add balance")
6 months is a long time. GW business is doing great, so fine I guess, but this "suck it up with a crap index and, lol, no meaningful buffs in Chapter Approved" is alienating.
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
The thing is there hasn't been a shift in the rules this big sinces 2nd > 3rd and thats the problem. People seem to be forgetting that the codexes currently being released are being somewhat rushed in order to get all the existing armies up to date and THAT should be GWs priority right now, not more golden mans. You can compliment them on the pace of releases all you want but its something they KNEW they would have to do when they sat down and decided to revamp the game and sticking a new army release in the middle of their catch up period was a stupid thing to do.
Once all the updated codexes are out we'll be back to two or three books a year.
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
I also remember the pre-wardian era days when the pitch for a new book wasn't as much "STOMP the ever loving CRAP out of your friends with this brand new awesome supergreat codex!! They won't be able to do ANYTHING about these amazing warlord traits, stratagems, chapter tactics and relics you get in here for free, because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY! Enjoy buffs to 90% of your units as well, because this codex is just so amazing and you have to run out and buy it!" and instead generally just focused on the new, usually pretty large model releases that came in the new book.
"LOOK how easily these five custodes killed 30 ork boyz! Don't even think about how something that's mathematically good against horde armies in 8th is by default even better when pointed at more expensive elite units! you gotta get this book right now!"
It seems like each new codex seems to be the best with each release so it could actually be a blessing in disguise to get your race updated later on down the line.
Primark G wrote: It seems like each new codex seems to be the best with each release so it could actually be a blessing in disguise to get your race updated later on down the line.
Nothing's yet to surpass Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights and Ademptus Mechanicus were just plain garbage even on release. Dark Angels are looking pretty mediocre too.
Eldar are in the best position, without a doubt. However, at the end of the day, you will be able to choose units from 2 *maybe* 3 codices to fill out your list.
Chaos will choose from 4-6 codices at least.
Imperial will choose from upwards of 10.
Everyone else will get 1, once GW is done building the Imperial/Chaos library of codices.
Thanks for playing.
Ehh 6 of those Imperials are just different flavours of Space Marine. If you’re making a Soup list, being able to choose from Vanilla, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, Space Wolf, Grey Knights or Deathwatch doesn’t make you manifestly more powerful than just being able to choose a couple of units from any one of those Codexes. For example, being allowed to choose a Deathwatch Kill-Team doesn’t make your Guilliman+Hellblasters or Lemartes+Death Company more powerful.
Ultimately Imperial Soup lets you pick from Guard, Sisters, Mechanicum, Inquisition hodge-podge and a hundred irrelevant permutations of Space Marine. So five factions really (6 if this Codex pulls Custodes out of the Inquisiton hodge-podge).
Something to keep in mind is that 40k is based around a central theme. That theme is: The Imperium of Man versus The Forces of Chaos. This is especially true following the events that created the universe of 8th edition.
Sure, the Xenos races play a part in keeping the whole grim dark “we’re hopelessly surrounded” vibe going, but they will never be pivotal to the overall flow of the universe. Custodes are, they played a huge role in what happened to the Imperium directly following the gathering storm story arcs.
The blow Chaos just struck dwarfs any threat all the xenos races combined are capable of being. Tera almost fell, the astronomicon fell silent for months to years depending on where the world was in relation to Tera. The Black Legion almost isolated Tera from the rest of the universe permanently. Why would GW be prioritizing anything other than Imperium and Chaos books with that as the current setting of their game?
orkychaos wrote: Something to keep in mind is that 40k is based around a central theme. That theme is: The Imperium of Man versus The Forces of Chaos. This is especially true following the events that created the universe of 8th edition.
Sure, the Xenos races play a part in keeping the whole grim dark “we’re hopelessly surrounded” vibe going, but they will never be pivotal to the overall flow of the universe. Custodes are, they played a huge role in what happened to the Imperium directly following the gathering storm story arcs.
The blow Chaos just struck dwarfs any threat all the xenos races combined are capable of being. Tera almost fell, the astronomicon fell silent for months to years depending on where the world was in relation to Tera. The Black Legion almost isolated Tera from the rest of the universe permanently. Why would GW be prioritizing anything other than Imperium and Chaos books with that as the current setting of their game?
So your argument against Xenos players feeling like they take a backseat to Imperium/Chaos releases is that... they're supposed to take a back seat? It's a wonder that anyone plays Xenos at all if this is the attitude towards their various factions.
orkychaos wrote: Something to keep in mind is that 40k is based around a central theme. That theme is: The Imperium of Man versus The Forces of Chaos. This is especially true following the events that created the universe of 8th edition.
Sure, the Xenos races play a part in keeping the whole grim dark “we’re hopelessly surrounded” vibe going, but they will never be pivotal to the overall flow of the universe. Custodes are, they played a huge role in what happened to the Imperium directly following the gathering storm story arcs.
The blow Chaos just struck dwarfs any threat all the xenos races combined are capable of being. Tera almost fell, the astronomicon fell silent for months to years depending on where the world was in relation to Tera. The Black Legion almost isolated Tera from the rest of the universe permanently. Why would GW be prioritizing anything other than Imperium and Chaos books with that as the current setting of their game?
Thank you captain obvious of da lore. Sorry for giving a sh*t about making your gaming experience as well as our own more than power armor and skin bags with tanks. Oh wait 30k exists....
I guess us dirty xenos players should take your advice, and go spend money on a company that cares to support all their player base. Actually i wonder what would happen in the gw board room if that happened.
Thank you captain obvious of da lore. Sorry for giving a sh*t about making your gaming experience as well as our own more than power armor and skin bags with tanks. Oh wait 30k exists....
I guess us dirty xenos players should take your advice, and go spend money on a company that cares to support all their player base. Actually i wonder what would happen in the gw board room if that happened.
In other news, GW profits triple from the previous FY...
Say what you like about the Custodes codex coming out, but GW are doing everything right by the majority of their customers.
Guys, a codex would push back the rest by 2-3 weeks tops, if they are serious about having every codex out by summer's end. You are literally raging about how it's so unfair your codex has to wait an extra couple weeks because of this new army. It is so silly.
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the_scotsman wrote: ...and instead generally just focused on the new, usually pretty large model releases that came in the new book.
You mean... like this codex has been? All I've seen is stuff hyping the new his and jetbikes and such. This is in fact an actual codex being released due to models, given it turns them from a half faction into a small but full faction.
It's not just a codex, it's an entire model range for an army that we didn't really need in the first place, while compared against several lines that are horribly out of date.
Fafnir wrote: It's not just a codex, it's an entire model range for an army that we didn't really need in the first place, while compared against several lines that are horribly out of date.
I suspect a new model range sells considerably better then an updated one. (which is why we've been seeing them)
let's say GW puts out a new plastic dark reaper kit (these guys are apparently "good" right now) sure people'll buy em but others will decide their fine cast ones are good eneugh.
put put out a genuinely NEW kit and people will have to buy it. and I suspect a brand new army sells in bigger numbers, because people aren't just buying "1 to supplement their existing army" but several to "build a new army"
Fafnir wrote: It's not just a codex, it's an entire model range for an army that we didn't really need in the first place, while compared against several lines that are horribly out of date.
Nothing is really needed. It's what people want. GW thinks more people are interested in a new custodes army than updating some older lines. They probably aren't wrong. Updating old lines is something you do between major releases, you don't back off new releases to make room for updates.
Fafnir wrote: It's not just a codex, it's an entire model range for an army that we didn't really need in the first place, while compared against several lines that are horribly out of date.
Nothing is really needed. It's what people want. GW thinks more people are interested in a new custodes army than updating some older lines. They probably aren't wrong. Updating old lines is something you do between major releases, you don't back off new releases to make room for updates.
this is pretty true. I also think the reason we're seeing so many small IoM armies is because of the nature of the beast. GW's going after low hanging fruit. stuff thats been in the settings background forever, has a eistablished background lore and a built in fan base. This obviously means mostly IoM stuff (and chaos stuff as GW is realizing that legion codexes could be big) but we also are seeing things like gene stealer cults.
I imagine we'll see future codexes for Xenos, but rather then genuinely new things it will be examples of that "low hanging fruit" I'd expect to see at least one Tau Auxillery army, (Gun'seva would proably the the safest choice for GW. But Kroot I think could be big) I could also see far sight enclaves becoming their own faction (by 8th edition they've had a century on their own, by Tau standards thats awhile) Eldar have the Ynnari.
New alien races though, I think that would be hard, MAYBE the Hrud or enslavers but I'm not sure they'd do as well as say.. admech custodes, death watch etc
orkychaos wrote: Sure, the Xenos races play a part in keeping the whole grim dark “we’re hopelessly surrounded” vibe going, but they will never be pivotal to the overall flow of the universe. Custodes are, they played a huge role in what happened to the Imperium directly following the gathering storm story arcs.
They were a bit player in 30 year old lore fluff, they didn't exist as an army at all until last edition, I don't buy this naked rationalization in the slightest.
Orks have been a far more central faction to 40k for far longer than the Custodes.
Also, this statement is pretty dismissive of xenos players, but it does jibe with what I've been saying, it's Imperial/Chaos 40k, the xenos players are 2nd class customers that GW clearly doesn't value.
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
Didn't people get to use the old editions codex when this was the case? I notice a lot of people keep saying it isn't as bad as the old days, but I always assumed in the old days worst case scenario they didn't take away the old codex like they did for 8th.
orkychaos wrote: Sure, the Xenos races play a part in keeping the whole grim dark “we’re hopelessly surrounded” vibe going, but they will never be pivotal to the overall flow of the universe. Custodes are, they played a huge role in what happened to the Imperium directly following the gathering storm story arcs.
They were a bit player in 30 year old lore fluff, they didn't exist as an army at all until last edition, I don't buy this naked rationalization in the slightest.
Orks have been a far more central faction to 40k for far longer than the Custodes.
Also, this statement is pretty dismissive of xenos players, but it does jibe with what I've been saying, it's Imperial/Chaos 40k, the xenos players are 2nd class customers that GW clearly doesn't value.
^^^ So much this.
Custodes are probably about the least pivotal military organisation in the 40k lore up until some market-driven attempt to make them relevant in recent years. They barely get a mention for pretty much all of the 40k fluff and now we're supposed to be happy they're getting a Codex to themselves? It's particularly annoying because the whole mystique surrounding them was pretty much that they were this tiny force of super-superhuman Marines who were basically mini-Primarchs according to what little was said about them, but that may have been hyperbole - we just didn't know. That was pretty cool. Now they've got rules, and that always diminishes these sort of legendary figures massively.
The reason a lot of people like Xenos armies is because they are genuinely different to all the various power armour factions. Regardless of how super-special your Marines are, they're still Marines. The resentment we're seeing towards Custodes seems to stem from the fact they don't really do anything to make 40k more interesting.
I don't know why people believe that they aren't redoing old kits because they are doing new lines.
They need to do both, just like videogames make at the same time reworks of old characters (Like League of Legends), but they still make new heroes.
New and shiny make MUCH more money than redoing old works. Thats just a fact. When a company goes back and redo some old kits, etc... is more for the fans and costumers than for real profit.
SOB are a special case here because they are so old that they when they redo the line it will be like a totally new army.
I do admit I'm a bit upset at them making a Custodes army.
There are probably way more numerous and important hive gangs in the Imperium than the Custodes.
I mean hell, the Hrud are a more numerous and credible threat to the Imperium than the Custodes are to Chaos, and Apostles of the Blind King destroyed more Imperial worlds than the Custodes have probably ever set foot on.
There are so many larger, and imo more interesting, factions that could be explored than the Custodes. I feel like the reasons they're doing custodes are:
1) More power armour
2) Models already made for a boxed game
3) They're in 30k
4) More power armour
It really doesn't have anything to do with the background.
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
Slipspace wrote: The reason a lot of people like Xenos armies is because they are genuinely different to all the various power armour factions. Regardless of how super-special your Marines are, they're still Marines. The resentment we're seeing towards Custodes seems to stem from the fact they don't really do anything to make 40k more interesting.
Lore wise or gameplay?
Lore wise, it's debatable and a matter of preference. I personally think they are, because I do enjoy HH era stuff, archeotech, and seeing the imperium actually change even if it's not in a particularly big way.
From a gameplay perspective, they absolutely do. Even SM armies aren't particularly elite these days. This looks to be very low model count with a focus on melee, which is a fairly lacking niche.
Slipspace wrote: The reason a lot of people like Xenos armies is because they are genuinely different to all the various power armour factions. Regardless of how super-special your Marines are, they're still Marines. The resentment we're seeing towards Custodes seems to stem from the fact they don't really do anything to make 40k more interesting.
From a gameplay perspective, they absolutely do. Even SM armies aren't particularly elite these days. This looks to be very low model count with a focus on melee, which is a fairly lacking niche.
Death Company BA? Deathwing DA? Grey Knights? Death Guard?
I'm just kind of astonished at the number of people in this thread who unironically want to play HH in 40k. I'm just glad that the people I play with don't share that opinion (or if they do, they don't share it with me...)
I'm just kind of astonished at the number of people in this thread who unironically want to play HH in 40k. I'm just glad that the people I play with don't share that opinion (or if they do, they don't share it with me...)
In order: that's not an army that's a unit in an army, that's not an army that's two units in an army, and that's not how DG play I assure you as a DG player.
From rumors I've heard the new 40K custodies in general are an elite anti-hoard army. I can't give a source sorry but supposedly even singe model units apparently put the hurt on mob-squads (e.g., orc boys, gaunts, etc.). This will help Imperial soup armies versus Chaos soup, Nidz and IG.
I'm just kind of astonished at the number of people in this thread who unironically want to play HH in 40k. I'm just glad that the people I play with don't share that opinion (or if they do, they don't share it with me...)
In order: that's not an army that's a unit in an army, that's not an army that's two units in an army, and that's not how DG play I assure you as a DG player.
That's rich -- DG, I'll give you, may not have been the most apt comparison, but Custodes are "a unit in an army: the army". Even with these additions (unless I'm reading the situation completely wrong), they'll still be an incredibly elite army focusing on melee without a ton of variety and flexibility. Additionally, you didn't address Grey Knights as already completely filling the Custodes niche (but they have psychic capabilities and Custodes don't! Oh ho, I have slain my own argument)
Gene St. Ealer wrote: That's rich -- DG, I'll give you, may not have been the most apt comparison, but Custodes are "a unit in an army: the army". Even with these additions (unless I'm reading the situation completely wrong), they'll still be an incredibly elite army focusing on melee without a ton of variety and flexibility. Additionally, you didn't address Grey Knights as already completely filling the Custodes niche (but they have psychic capabilities and Custodes don't! Oh ho, I have slain my own argument)
Custodes are being expanded from a unit in an army to a proper army. Unless you are arguing that BA death company or deathwing should've become full stand alone armies with codices and a greater degree of unit variation instead of custodes?
Grey knights are the closest equivalent, but a bit hampered by being both entirely psychic and their anti demon shtick. Those are some fairly hefty limitations on the design space. I'll be curious how close they end up post codex.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: That's rich -- DG, I'll give you, may not have been the most apt comparison, but Custodes are "a unit in an army: the army". Even with these additions (unless I'm reading the situation completely wrong), they'll still be an incredibly elite army focusing on melee without a ton of variety and flexibility. Additionally, you didn't address Grey Knights as already completely filling the Custodes niche (but they have psychic capabilities and Custodes don't! Oh ho, I have slain my own argument)
Custodes are being expanded from a unit in an army to a proper army. Unless you are arguing that BA death company or deathwing should've become full stand alone armies with codices and a greater degree of unit variation instead of custodes?
Grey knights are the closest equivalent, but a bit hampered by being both entirely psychic and their anti demon shtick. Those are some fairly hefty limitations on the design space. I'll be curious how close they end up post codex.
Grey knights can easily be built as a horde of power armour, and in fact it is one of the more effective ways to play them. A basic GK strike marine is only 21 points.
Consider the cheapest possible basic Custodian Gaurd unit is over 50 points per man - thats a whole new level.
Custodes are probably about the least pivotal military organisation in the 40k lore up until some market-driven attempt to make them relevant in recent years. They barely get a mention for pretty much all of the 40k fluff and now we're supposed to be happy they're getting a Codex to themselves? It's particularly annoying because the whole mystique surrounding them was pretty much that they were this tiny force of super-superhuman Marines who were basically mini-Primarchs according to what little was said about them, but that may have been hyperbole - we just didn't know. That was pretty cool. Now they've got rules, and that always diminishes these sort of legendary figures massively.
The reason a lot of people like Xenos armies is because they are genuinely different to all the various power armour factions. Regardless of how super-special your Marines are, they're still Marines. The resentment we're seeing towards Custodes seems to stem from the fact they don't really do anything to make 40k more interesting.
Death Company BA? Deathwing DA? Grey Knights? Death Guard?
Keep in mind that unless you go all Oprah Winfrey with special weapons, the most super-special mega-elite units from Deathwing and even GK are cheaper than the basic line infantry of the Custodes.
A similar comparison could be made for Space Marines vs Guard.
Death Company BA? Deathwing DA? Grey Knights? Death Guard?
Keep in mind that unless you go all Oprah Winfrey with special weapons, the most super-special mega-elite units from Deathwing and even GK are cheaper than the basic line infantry of the Custodes.
A similar comparison could be made for Space Marines vs Guard.
true on the other hand those elite units aren't troops. which custodes are. A unit of custodes guard grabbing an objective in cover would proably be damn near impossiable to dislodge.
I remember when that used to be the case for Paladins (and Nob bikers, but those aren't Marines). Of course, even back then, Paladins weren't that great (Draigowing got a lot of hate back then, but was a very poor second fiddle to Purifier spam).
Primark G wrote: From rumors I've heard the new 40K custodies in general are an elite anti-hoard army. I can't give a source sorry but supposedly even singe model units apparently put the hurt on mob-squads (e.g., orc boys, gaunts, etc.). This will help Imperial soup armies versus Chaos soup, Nidz and IG.
I'll believe it when I see it.I doubt any marine is going to be more point efficient at dealing with hordes than a guardsman with a lasgun and another, slightly more important guardsman yelling at him.
Death Company BA? Deathwing DA? Grey Knights? Death Guard?
Keep in mind that unless you go all Oprah Winfrey with special weapons, the most super-special mega-elite units from Deathwing and even GK are cheaper than the basic line infantry of the Custodes.
A similar comparison could be made for Space Marines vs Guard.
true on the other hand those elite units aren't troops. which custodes are. A unit of custodes guard grabbing an objective in cover would proably be damn near impossiable to dislodge.
For sure, but can you afford to commit such a big chunk of your army to sit on an objective?
Maybe but if the ability to take a single unit applies to the basic custodes guard with the new codex.. suddenly you've got 1 or 2 models for 100 points that are being so hard to shift
BrianDavion wrote: Maybe but if the ability to take a single unit applies to the basic custodes guard with the new codex.. suddenly you've got 1 or 2 models for 100 points that are being so hard to shift
The staff at the open day release said that basic Custodian Guard are now taken in units of 3-5, rather than 5-10
BrianDavion wrote: Maybe but if the ability to take a single unit applies to the basic custodes guard with the new codex.. suddenly you've got 1 or 2 models for 100 points that are being so hard to shift
The staff at the open day release said that basic Custodian Guard are now taken in units of 3-5, rather than 5-10
So assuming the points costs don't change (big assumption) you're looking at 160 points for 3... not TOO bad. thats a ten man tac squad
No vote option for me, but we'll start with a misunderstanding. I know I've been away from the fluff, and I CERTAINTLY won't sink any more money into the novels after Rynn's World and Defenders of Ulthuan, but I thought the Adeptus Custodes was the guard of the Emperor's palace on Earth. Why are they even a playable faction in current 40K? Did their job description get changed?
And second the vote that EVERY other army should have been done before these clowns.
Just Tony wrote: No vote option for me, but we'll start with a misunderstanding. I know I've been away from the fluff, and I CERTAINTLY won't sink any more money into the novels after Rynn's World and Defenders of Ulthuan, but I thought the Adeptus Custodes was the guard of the Emperor's palace on Earth. Why are they even a playable faction in current 40K? Did their job description get changed?
And second the vote that EVERY other army should have been done before these clowns.
With the return of Gulliman they've been basicly kicked in the ass and told "can't defend the emperor of the entire IoM falls"
Just Tony wrote: No vote option for me, but we'll start with a misunderstanding. I know I've been away from the fluff, and I CERTAINTLY won't sink any more money into the novels after Rynn's World and Defenders of Ulthuan, but I thought the Adeptus Custodes was the guard of the Emperor's palace on Earth. Why are they even a playable faction in current 40K? Did their job description get changed?
And second the vote that EVERY other army should have been done before these clowns.
With the return of Gulliman they've been basicly kicked in the ass and told "can't defend the emperor of the entire IoM falls"
Primark G wrote: Six months is not a long time comparatively speaking... it is actually quite amazing and TBH anticipation is often better than the real thing.
People need to remember the pre 6th edition days when you could sometimes go entire editions without a codex.
Didn't people get to use the old editions codex when this was the case? I notice a lot of people keep saying it isn't as bad as the old days, but I always assumed in the old days worst case scenario they didn't take away the old codex like they did for 8th.
True for 4, 5, 6 and 7 ed though generally you sucked much like index vs codex.
Last time codexes were invalidated was 3rd ed. There marines got first codex 1998, tyranids 2001 2.5 years or so later. After that new versions and new factions like tau and necron came.
Imagine how hard it was for tyranids to play with the basic book list(index--) for 2.5 years First year saw space marines, dark eldar, blood angel, csm, dark angels, assasins, orks and eldar released.
Just Tony wrote: No vote option for me, but we'll start with a misunderstanding. I know I've been away from the fluff, and I CERTAINTLY won't sink any more money into the novels after Rynn's World and Defenders of Ulthuan, but I thought the Adeptus Custodes was the guard of the Emperor's palace on Earth. Why are they even a playable faction in current 40K? Did their job description get changed?
And second the vote that EVERY other army should have been done before these clowns.
With the return of Gulliman they've been basicly kicked in the ass and told "can't defend the emperor of the entire IoM falls"
So basically "To sell toys". Even more pointless.
sure in the same way every other army is pointless.
It actually wasn't that bad playing Nids with the black book. Sure, you couldn't customize every inch of every organism, but clearly defined unit types made for easier lists and Genestealers were legitimately scary in that list.
Just Tony wrote: No vote option for me, but we'll start with a misunderstanding. I know I've been away from the fluff, and I CERTAINTLY won't sink any more money into the novels after Rynn's World and Defenders of Ulthuan, but I thought the Adeptus Custodes was the guard of the Emperor's palace on Earth. Why are they even a playable faction in current 40K? Did their job description get changed?
And second the vote that EVERY other army should have been done before these clowns.
With the return of Gulliman they've been basicly kicked in the ass and told "can't defend the emperor of the entire IoM falls"
So basically "To sell toys". Even more pointless.
sure in the same way every other army is pointless.
My comment on pointless was more towards the banana heads adding NOTHING to Imperial lists they didn't already have with elite Marines, and having elite Marines lists means that the banana heads are DOUBLY bringing nothing that isn't already there. This reveal was a waste of resources, a total redundancy of models (barring jetbikes, I suppose), and delayed more important Xenos releases.
I just want to note that several of people arguing that custodes are awesome for being giant elite improved space marines have also posted on other threads that they hate primaris marines.
Any codex that has a larger player base than Custodes. So Orks, Tau, Necrons...
I think it's awesome they've kept up this 2 codex a month thing, but their ordering of the codexes has been weird. I expected SM and CSM because they are the largest player groups, but how DA and BA got codexes before Orks makes no sense to me.
ChargerIIC wrote: I just want to note that several of people arguing that custodes are awesome for being giant elite improved space marines have also posted on other threads that they hate primaris marines.
*ducks*
Ehhh there’s a legitimate distinction there though. Space Marines are supposed to be best of the best of soldiers. They’re the SAS; they’re supposed to be the best a soldier could possibly aspire to.
Custodes on the other hand are an elite bodyguard. A mix of bodyguard, assassin, statesman, politician and philosopher. They don’t fight like Marines because they’re not a military organisation: they’re a loose conglomerate of individual progidies. I believe it was Leman Russ who said (paraphrasing) ‘these are lions, not wolves’. They’re not a standing military force with various support elements, they’re individually crafted tools. Custodes ae functionally different to Space Maines, despite sharing common themes (namely ‘imperial’, ‘elite’ and ‘armoured’).
Primaris on the other hand are literally ‘Space Marines+1’. They fill the same functional role, do exactly the same thing but better. The only thing separating Marines and Primaris are how elite they are. GW took ‘the best of the best of soldiers’ and made ‘the slightly bester of the best of soliders’ and wondered why there was a negative reaction. If I play the best of the best of a particular role (soldiering), does it not occur to you that introducing a slightly better best of the best at exactly what my guys do might tick me off a little?
ChargerIIC wrote: I just want to note that several of people arguing that custodes are awesome for being giant elite improved space marines have also posted on other threads that they hate primaris marines.
*ducks*
Ehhh there’s a legitimate distinction there though. Space Marines are supposed to be best of the best of soldiers. They’re the SAS; they’re supposed to be the best a soldier could possibly aspire to.
Space Marines where a tool, the best the Emperor could mass produce at the moment. They wheren't more special than Thunder Warriors. Wouldn't you think that back in the day the Emperor said the "Thunder Warriors" where the best of the best? "The emperor's finest"? And we all know how that ended.
ChargerIIC wrote: I just want to note that several of people arguing that custodes are awesome for being giant elite improved space marines have also posted on other threads that they hate primaris marines.
*ducks*
Ehhh there’s a legitimate distinction there though. Space Marines are supposed to be best of the best of soldiers. They’re the SAS; they’re supposed to be the best a soldier could possibly aspire to.
Custodes on the other hand are an elite bodyguard. A mix of bodyguard, assassin, statesman, politician and philosopher. They don’t fight like Marines because they’re not a military organisation: they’re a loose conglomerate of individual progidies. I believe it was Leman Russ who said (paraphrasing) ‘these are lions, not wolves’. They’re not a standing military force with various support elements, they’re individually crafted tools. Custodes ae functionally different to Space Maines, despite sharing common themes (namely ‘imperial’, ‘elite’ and ‘armoured’).
Primaris on the other hand are literally ‘Space Marines+1’. They fill the same functional role, do exactly the same thing but better. The only thing separating Marines and Primaris are how elite they are. GW took ‘the best of the best of soldiers’ and made ‘the slightly bester of the best of soliders’ and wondered why there was a negative reaction. If I play the best of the best of a particular role (soldiering), does it not occur to you that introducing a slightly better best of the best at exactly what my guys do might tick me off a little?
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans
2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines
3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines
4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines
5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines
6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
That's not even counting the non-codex complaint chapters of space marines you can buy. I'm happy for the 30k custodes player who now get to play 8th edition without playing their other factions, but it does show a trend that GW every few years decides to rustle up additional funds by producing a 'more special' version of space marines and everyone buys into them.
Primaris are at least a kind of apology to space marine players for how there models never really got to elite status they were supposed to (shorter than modern caidian models, same number of wounds, etc), but I'm not certain that releasing a space themed teaser and then dropping custodes so soon after primaris was the right call for a number of reasons.
I'm doubly uncertain how you can hate one faction of 'better than you' space marines but then love a faction of 'even more better than you' space marines. Isn't the theme the same? One just has more gilt.
Am I in minority that find custodes hideous (not trolling) ? With all that golden ornament, gigantic shoulder pads, banana helmet with ponytail.
The ugliest of space marines.
Modock wrote: Am I in minority that find custodes hideous (not trolling) ? With all that golden ornament, gigantic shoulder pads, banana helmet with ponytail.
The ugliest of space marines.
They're a bit extra, yes. It works if there is just one unit of them, but as a full army it is too much. If I end up getting them, I'm gonna paint them black. I might also try to get hold of some extra biker helmets and use those on the regular guys too.
Modock wrote: Am I in minority that find custodes hideous (not trolling) ? With all that golden ornament, gigantic shoulder pads, banana helmet with ponytail.
The ugliest of space marines.
They are like the Pontifical Swiss Guard. For me they look ridiculous in those payamas, but they are a honour guard and I can see the appeal for some people. Personally I love the look of Custodes, but not in golden.
Modock wrote: Am I in minority that find custodes hideous (not trolling) ? With all that golden ornament, gigantic shoulder pads, banana helmet with ponytail.
The ugliest of space marines.
I would not be so hard on Custodes - they are flashy but they fit the 40k aesthetics way more than many modern sculpts.
Just they don't belong to the tabletop more than 1 unit at time.
But the single mode, adjusted for the role is supposed to have, is quite nice and fitting with what the emperor looked like.. as far as we know. We can imagine big E surrounded by these guys.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I would not be so hard on Custodes - they are flashy but they fit the 40k aesthetics way more than many modern sculpts.
Just they don't belong to the tabletop more than 1 unit at time.
But the single mode, adjusted for the role is supposed to have, is quite nice and fitting with what the emperor looked like.. as far as we know. We can imagine big E surrounded by these guys.
.. what possible modern sculpt could you be thinking of that fits the 40k aesthetic less than custodes?
Giant, golden, bright, shiny, perfect, flawless super-duper soldiers using entirely functional newly-developed scifi technology is the absolute anthithesis of 40k in my eyes.
looking at recent releases - Triumvirates were fine. Guilliman was obnoxious mostly for his proportional goofiness but he at least had a burning sword and a couple incense braziers and such. Stuff like Grayfax and new Cypher I'd even give an A to an A+ in terms of how well they convey "40k" in aesthetics. All the new DG look like sculpted versions of wonderful classic Blanche goodness. Genestealer Cult, again perfection. Primaris marines fluff is insanely obnoxious but at least the models blend in OK with existing marines. Eldar Triumvirate was great - loved seeing the "new savior' sharing significant thematic elements with a slaanesh daemon.
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans
2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines
3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines
4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines
5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines
6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
ChargerIIC wrote: I just want to note that several of people arguing that custodes are awesome for being giant elite improved space marines have also posted on other threads that they hate primaris marines.
*ducks*
Ehhh there’s a legitimate distinction there though. Space Marines are supposed to be best of the best of soldiers. They’re the SAS; they’re supposed to be the best a soldier could possibly aspire to.
Custodes on the other hand are an elite bodyguard. A mix of bodyguard, assassin, statesman, politician and philosopher. They don’t fight like Marines because they’re not a military organisation: they’re a loose conglomerate of individual progidies. I believe it was Leman Russ who said (paraphrasing) ‘these are lions, not wolves’. They’re not a standing military force with various support elements, they’re individually crafted tools. Custodes ae functionally different to Space Maines, despite sharing common themes (namely ‘imperial’, ‘elite’ and ‘armoured’).
Primaris on the other hand are literally ‘Space Marines+1’. They fill the same functional role, do exactly the same thing but better. The only thing separating Marines and Primaris are how elite they are. GW took ‘the best of the best of soldiers’ and made ‘the slightly bester of the best of soliders’ and wondered why there was a negative reaction. If I play the best of the best of a particular role (soldiering), does it not occur to you that introducing a slightly better best of the best at exactly what my guys do might tick me off a little?
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans 2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines 3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines 4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines 5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines 6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
Custodes aren't Space Marines lore wise though. They predate them and were made differently. Likewise, Sisters are actually special (as in training and equipment, not genetics) humans.
The nuances in the lore take second fiddle to design aesthetics. Regardless of any lore attempting to differentiate them they're still essentially just Space Marines++.
I keep saying that about all the different kinds of The Elder Scrolls's human, but for their fans a Breton has nothing to do with a Imperial... to each their own.
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans
2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines
3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines
4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines
5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines
6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans
2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines
3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines
4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines
5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines
6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
You forgot Primaris Deathwatch.
When does DW Primaris release?
You've been able to run Primaris in the Deathwatch since the Primaris came out, or shortly there after.
Galas wrote: I keep saying that about all the different kinds of The Elder Scrolls's human, but for their fans a Breton has nothing to do with a Imperial... to each their own.
Aren't Bretons half Elf? Apparently they have higher magic resist because of that.
Galas wrote: I keep saying that about all the different kinds of The Elder Scrolls's human, but for their fans a Breton has nothing to do with a Imperial... to each their own.
Aren't Bretons half Elf? Apparently they have higher magic resist because of that.
The nuances in the lore take second fiddle to design aesthetics. Regardless of any lore attempting to differentiate them they're still essentially just Humans of another colour.
Spoiler:
I'm just joking Arachnofiend, please don't get mad at me
I think I posted this earlier but it has reached silly proportions:
1) Space Marines: Special Humans
2) Primaris Marines: Special Space Marines
3) DeathWatch: Special Special Space Marines
4) Grey Knights: Special Special Special Space Marines
5) Custodes: Special Special Special Special Space Marines
6) Sisters of Battle: Less than Special Space Marines.
You forgot Primaris Deathwatch.
When does DW Primaris release?
You've been able to run Primaris in the Deathwatch since the Primaris came out, or shortly there after.
The arms/shoulders fit reasonably well. And the Primaris Stalker bolter makes a much better Stalker bolter than the weird chunky thing they shipped in the Deathwatch box anyway.
Arachnofiend wrote: The nuances in the lore take second fiddle to design aesthetics. Regardless of any lore attempting to differentiate them they're still essentially just Space Marines++.
Here you’re just taking your opinion and stating it as objective fact.
What you mean is that ‘to you, design theme is more important than lore, so Custodes do nothing for you’.
For me, the lore is more important than common design elements, so Custodes fill a niche for me.
Edit: From the point of view of fluff bunnies and those who don’t just want to criticise GW for putting out lots of different guys in armour, this list might look something like this:
1) Space Marines: Genetically modified super solider special forces. The best of the best of the Imperial war machine.
2) Primaris Marines: Space Marines +1. There’s a reason these guys have attracted so much angst.
3) DeathWatch: Space Marines experienced, trained and equipped to fight a particular enemy.
4) Grey Knights: Space Marines experienced, trainer and equipped to fight a different particular enemy.
5) Custodes: Bodyguards, assassins, politicians and philosophers rolled into one, with completely different genetic modification; not a military organisation.
6) Sisters of Battle: Unaugmented human soldiers with top-notch equipment requisitioned by virtue of powerful political ties.
Primaris Marines fill exactly the same niche that Space Marines do, they just do it better. They took the ‘best of the best’ and made them besterer. Deathwatch and Grey Knights aren’t really ‘better’ as much as ‘more specialised’, which has strengths and weaknesses. Custodes aren’t Space Marines+1, they’re a different concept that fulfils a different role.
Custodes aren't Space Marines lore wise though. They predate them and were made differently.
Likewise, Sisters are actually special (as in training and equipment, not genetics) humans.
Actually, Custodes do NOT predate Marines.
Before the Custodes the Dark Angels were the Guardians of the Emperor. That's the reason they have a large cache of ancient and "better" tech than many of the other marine chapters. They were allowed to take it with them when they joined up with Lion El'Johnson and got replaced by the Custodes.
As for the gold armor being atrocious.... Anymore so than a sea of Bright blue armor? How about silver armor? Grey and Yellow stripes?
If the custodes release has a quick return on the investment it will likely fund other army releases, which makes for a faster release schedule overall.
Regarding the replenishment of the numbers of custodes:
I always figured he taught the Custodians themselves to do it. After all, I'm pretty sure they were already responsible training and teaching the children who would become future Custodians without the Emperors direct oversight once he got busy with the crusade and the webway project.
Once of the roles the Custodians filled was basically being intellegent and well learned enough to give good conversation to the emperor. That would certainly imply that evem if one wasnt up to the task several of them would be.
