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No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 16:42:29


Post by: Jidmah


Due to popular demand, I re-created the tactics thread with the pretty rainbow table of units. If you have things you think should added to this thread, PM me.

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
-Some panzee brainboy


I know, us orks don't like rules, but a couple of things should be said before starting:
- This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(
- It's safe to assume that the vast majority of competitive games will be using the newest FAQs, all of the matched play rules and the current beta rules. Please don't base tactics on not using the most recent rule set.
- Keep in mind that not everybody has access to forgeworld models or rules.
- Be clear about whether you are discussing army composition (looking for the best options), or whether you simply want to use a unit in an efficient way, even if it's not the best choice.
- There are communities and tournaments that do not allow index options. There are communities and tournaments that do allow index options. The people looking for advice here cannot change that, so accept that people can or cannot take index options.
- Do not discuss GW's business practices in this thread.
- It is fine to agree to disagree.
- Back up your arguments.
- Provide links to blogs/videos/podcasts you are referencing
- Orks never lose.
- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

Thanks to the these awesome gits for providing content:
the_scrotsman
PiñaColada
hollow one
Waaaghbert
Emicrania
flandarz
An Actual Englishman


Unit analysis
Gretchin Our stratagems are good. To use stratagems we need CPs. To generate CPs, gretchins are very efficient. In addition, Grot Shields is incredibly powerful as stratagems go, so you should definitely bring a lot of gretchin.
Smasha gun The smasha gun is nothing short of awesome at destroying vehicles, which is something orks have dearly needed.
Weirdboy Orks have some of the best psychic powers that are hard to pass up, with Da Jump being no less than mandatory. You can upgrade them for 1cp to Warpheads but usually you can just bring multiples. Important part to note is that the weird boy doesn't care about culture at all.
Boyz Boyz are no longer the go-to unit it used to be. Units of 30 are still great targets for Da Jump and the Tellyporta and Green Tide stratagems. Smaller mobs have less use, outside of 10-strong mobs you plan to mob up with another big mob or Deff Skulls Trukkboyz with rokkits.
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun The SAG is a powerful long-range weapon, especially when upgraded to Souped-Up SAG and combined with the Big Killa Boss warlord trait. Currently one our best HQ.
Dakkajet Good against anything that's not a vehicle (T7+). Can be useful for assassinating characters, as it can jump next to them and unload its guns on them.
Lootas Long range firepower that excells when combined with stratagems. Put down 15 bad moons lootas, throw more dakka on them, shoot twice and pulverize whatever you like least. Always spend a CP to re-roll ones for shots and protect them with gretchin.
Tractor kannon This gun fires an auto-hitting kannon shot. If the target has FLY, it will deal more damage and explode. Not a bad at all, but usually lootas, dakkajets or wazzboms take care of fliers.
Warboss on Warbike (I) The killa klaw single-handedly makes one warboss a must-take for each army. Unless you are locked out of index options, this warboss should be riding a bike.

Tankbustas Powerful but fragile unit that lacks range compared to lootas and thus loses the race to them. Keep in mind their synergy with the Stikkbomb 1cp stratagem to solidly double their damage output when they can get within 6" of their target.
Deffkilla Wartrike His biggest drawback is his fixed weapon coupled with his strength, which is one point lower than warbosses. He does however bring a waaaagh aura that works on vehicles and often can pull off turn one charges.
MANz You get a lot of durability and killing power for a fair price tag. The best way to use them is to tellyport them in as evil suns for extra charge range and then bully backfield-units off their objcitive.
Megatrakk Skrapjet Tons of rokkit shots make it great for vehicle hunting that also brings a decent close combat weapon and two big shootas.
Shokkjump Dragsta Good, reliable anti-tank firepower only second to the scrapjet. In theory they could be taking objectives with their random jumps, but in reality they are dead by turn 2.
Deff Dreads Decent if you tellyport them in to attack a vulnerable part of your enemy's army. The magic number seems to be two deff dreads as three often don't fit in places where you want them to be.
Kustom Mega Kannon Basically the budget version of the smasha gun, while slightly less efficient, you get more firepower out of less models.
Wazbom Blastajet Hard to kill and mobile anti-tank platform that also protects your army from alpha-strikes. It's fast enough to keep the KFF coverage planes and buggies racing forward.
Kommandos Usually used to fill out brigades to clear and camp objectives. If index is available, big shootas seem to be the best option for them, as they are just sitting in cover somewhere.
Stormboyz The ability to go fast and charge over screens makes them a perfect match for two units of boyz tellyporting and jumping in turn 2.
Gorkanaut More punch and a gun that gets screens out of the way makes them better than morkanauts. Combine tellyporta with ramming speed to get them into combat.
Morkanaut Combines a KFF with decent close combat abililty and anti-tank guns. If you don't want to see it shot down turn 1, you should put it into the tellporta.
Mad Dok Grotsnik When running deff skullz, he is a more durable warboss that provides models around him with 6+++. He can also catch people off-guard when he charges them during their turn.
Zhardsnark (FW) Fast, strong HQ choice for Evil Suns armies. His Pain Klaw hits very hard, but he has little defense against things striking back. Basically gives a second killa klaw boss for your army.
Gargantuan Squiggoth (FW) Everything the stompa wanted to be - hard to kill, decent price, devastating to anything on the receiving end of its charge and decent shooting.
Big Mek (I) Big meks are the cheapest KFF platforms, so they are great to fill up HQ slots when you don't need a bike to keep up with your army.

Warboss If you don't have index access, this is where you put your killa klaw. Outside of that the warboss is used to have green tides advance and charge and to keep morale up, little else.
Snikrot Used similar to kommandoz or MANz, he beats enemy units off objectives and then stays there, near impossible to remove without dedicates shooting. Sadly he is locked into the worst klan kulture.
Kustom Boosta-Blasta The KBB combines a wonderfully reliable quad-burna anti chaff tool with a solid elite/light armor hunting weapon and a cute little mortal wound ram ability for a discount price.
Bonebreaker The bonebreaker powerful in melee and can transport units. Sadly, there is little need for transports for melee units when you have da jump and tellyportas.
Battlewagon Multi-functional transport that can transport up to 20 shooty models. It's not durable enough to protect high-value targets, but a unit of tank bustas or flash gits can find their way to the frontlines in these.
Nobz The point drop made them our all-round infantry of choice, whenever you need a small unit to ride a transport, these are your orks. Big Choppas and double choppas are the preferred loadouts - Combi weapons, power klaws and killsaws cost too much for what you get. Make sure to bring ammo runts to die to explosions.
Banner Nob As most boyz are jumped or tellyported these days, the banner nob has no one to buff. While the buff is powerful, it often seems like pure overkill.
Ghazkgull Expensive, but he is one heck of a beatstick if you deliver him up the field using a transport or slog him with some boyz. A goff build shoul aim to stack Ghazkgull Thrakka, Warpath, Skarboyz, and a waaagh banner.
Scar Boyz For 1 CP a unit of goff boyz gets +1 strength. The difference between S4 and S5 is huge, since you wound T4 on 3+ and T8 on 5+ now. Combined with Thrakka and the goff trait these are the most deadly boyz you can get.
Warbikes Warbikers are good at killing chaff and have a stratagem to protect them. The kult of speed detatchment adds two more stratagems for turn 1 assaults and model arrests, but they still die very easily.
Deffkopta When Index is available, KMB and Bomb are great options, otherwise you are stuck with overpriced twin rokkits. The FLY and VEHICLE keywords enable lots of stratagems to be used on them.
Flash Gitz Awesome guns that lay waste to light infantry, elite infantry, light vehicles and anything else that's not T7 or higher, decent armor saves, good combat ability and ammo runts to re-roll shots and eat shots or explosions. Sadly, they pay points for all that, and they are locked into the freeboota culture.
Burna Bommer Bombs work best against single wound infantry, has one more big shoota than a blitza bommer. Use Explosive Demise to discourage your opponent from shooting it down or do lots of damage. Use CP to re-roll explosion result. Do not take skorcha missiles.
Chinork (FW) Compared to a trukk, the added speed, better guns, to bomms, extra speed and the ability to deepstrike actually make this transport worth using to cart around your tankbustas or flash gits. Dies to a stiff breeze though.
Kannon (I) Not as good as the mek guns since it has only one shot and big guns are less tough. A decent anti-tank weapon, especially when spammed, plus you still get to do crew shenanigans.
Skorchas (I) For your points, you can either have two skorchas or one new buggy, with the skorchas being more durable but less range and firepower.

Trukk Our cheapest transport option. Orks have little use for transports, so besides tank bustas, flash gits or deff skulls shoota boyz there are no units that actually want to be in a trukk.
Zaggstruk A warboss on a bike without Killa Klaw that is also stuck with the sub-par Goff kulture. Unless you were running Goff anyways, skip him.
'ard boyz a 5+ armor save is rarely worth 2CP. Even if you loot a nearby vehicle, you are now paying 3 CP (and a vehicle) to get a 4+ save, rarely worth your time.
Painboy Too expensive for the 6+++ he provides, but his mandatory PK sometimes kills something.
Killa Kanz With no buffs from cultures or stratagems their expensive single shot weapons cannot compete with deff dreads or mek guns. A unit of KMB kanz shooting twice with the dreadmob stratagem sounds decent, but you might as well just shoot your SSAG twice.
Mini mek Can get a KMB from index wargear, otherwise he can only serve to fill up brigades, since he is the cheapest elite choice.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon Not too expensive, but can't compete with Dakkajets or Kustom Boosta Blastas for its primary role, which is clearing chaff.
Big Mek in Mega Armour Being the slowest thing in the codex while carrying an aura that requires you to keep up with stuff is not a good combo. Still useful for bad moons armies that have no access to index options.
Painboy on Bike (I) Same as above. He is more likely to get somewhere fast, but he can't heal units after moving more than 5"

Gunwagon One killkannon might be worth 15 points, but two are not worth 35, especially not on a wagon no one can shoot out of.
Ruckatrukk Squigbuggy The "stay at range and shoot" buggy fails to deliver a decent amount of damage due to terrible guns. The mine ability is nice, but easily avoided or soaked by units that don't care about those mortal wounds. Being the most expensive of the buggies puts the final nail in its coffin.
Runtherd You have to run a lot of gretchins to make runtherds a useful investment, since they cost almost as much as a whole replacement squad of gretchins for the squad you lost because he wasn't there to stop them running away.
Burnas Burna boyz are in this weird spot where they're kind of anti horde, kind of anti elite, and kind of way too squishy for their point cost. Their only upside is that their spannas can access KMBs.
Nob Bikers While they did get a point drop, they still aren't great. Without special weapons, koptas with big shootas are better, more durable, shootier and just as good in combat. With special weapons they get shot and die. Nobz being cheap as chips doesn't exactly help their case. They fail to find a niche between koptas and warbikers.
Blitza-Bommer Bombs are good at causing mortal wounds, perfect for squads of infantry but not that good against vehicles. Unless you expect squadrons of vehicles, use the burna bommer instead.
Stompa The point drop and the buff to its weapons simply wasn't enough. The stompa remains a beatuiful model for friendly games and nothing more.
Bubble chukka From a fun minigame it turned into something that maybe kills something or not. A one or two rolled for shots or strength will make its shooting phase a waste of time. Avoid.
Ork Mek Boss Buzzgob (FW) Despite having the rule on his datasheet, he does not have a KFF! If you are running Goff and you felt like you want to trade one of your Big Mek's SAG for additional attacks and wounds, this is your guy. So probably not.
Kill Tank (FW) Armed very similar to a knight, but costs almost three times and doesn't get ion shields
Kustom Stompa (FW) Leave it to FW to make an even worse stompa. There is zero reason to pay minimum(!) 1052 points for this.
Lobba (I) Ever felt like spending 30 points on a big shoota that doesn't benefit from kultures? Yeah, me neither.
Warbuggies/trakks (I) No changes from GW had them ending up strictly worse than koptas. Best convert them to one of the new buggies.

Mekboy Workshop A unit can skip shooting and assault get a bonus that is worse than simply not skipping shooting and assault. You pay points to make a vehicle worse once per turn, so just use the awesome model as terrain and ignore the datasheet.

Clans
Evil Sunz
Red Ones Go Fasta- Getting +1 to Move (+2 for <speed freekz>, Advance & Charges is huge and you'll always want to advance with ES since there's literally no penalty for it. Consider this kultur for deepstrike heavy lists, foot slogging infantry, bikes&deffkoptas and bonebreakas. This Kultur is a useful building block as part of a bigger Ork soup, but since they have no real benefits to shooting plenty of units gain nothing from it and are better suited using other Kulturs.
Rezmekka's redder armour - Sort of an odd relic, getting that +1 to move is probably the big gain here since the mortal wounds happen at the beginning of your movement phase. Meaning you opponent can always back out of combat. Try using it on a mini-mek in a bonebreaka, those get stronger on the charge so it could at least force your opponent into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Could be worth an extra CP to get this one, but overall there are stronger relics out there.
Speed Freek - Enables your entire fleet of vehicles to hit&run(& hit again). Consider putting this on you warbike/wartrike warlord if you've found them to be too squishy in close combat. Synergises well with bonebreakas because they get stronger on the charge, megatrakks because of mortal wounds and deffkoptas since they can still shoot after falling back because of fly. It's not bad but you're giving up a lot of offensive output on the warlord to gain this new trick.
Drive-by Krumpin' - Enables an Evil Sunz <Speed Freek> unit to move again at the end of the shooting phase. The speed freek requirement means no transport can use this, but it could be useful to reposition your deffkoptas after having moved them up to snipe a character. Also note that you can use this to move a unit up, shoot with it and then move back onto an objective and still have it count as defended the objective that turn. Cheap at 1CP and every now and then you'll find a use for it.

Freebootas
Competitive Streak: Any time a freeboota unit destroys an enemy unit, all other freebootas within 24" add 1 to hit for the phase. The only trait that allows Gretchin units to (indirectly) benefit by causing other non-gretchin freeboota units to gain the +1 to hit. Due to the power of mek gunz, Freebootas is a solid trait if you don't want to make the structural changes to your list to make Deathskullz or Bad Moonz work for you. Also since its buff works for melee and shooting, Freebootas could be a solid choice for a non-soup ork army.
Badskull Banner: The ability to drop immunity to morale is interesting at best, but this relic competes with some really amazing options. Best use case might be to support Killa Kanz (which again, benefit somewhat from being Freebootas) or a large boyz mob to keep it sticking around after heavy casualties so you can use the Endless Green Tide stratagem. It is one turn only though, and many other aura effects reproduce it with minor tweaks like Breakin' Heads.
Reputation: Re-roll ones to hit in combat. If you plan on running your warboss warlord with a choppy retinue (even if it's some bonebreaka transporting him), you might want to consider this. The warboss himself will be re-rolling ones to hit, which makes that relic klaw a lot more reliable. Not that useful on meks or Badrukk (who is locked into this trait).
Kroozer Broadside: 3CP, D3 roll after you've spent those CP, requires a 5+ or 6+ to do D3 mortal wounds. There are very, very few cases where you'd want to throw this down instead of using the CP for something else, and in those cases you're probably already winning the game and just have CP to burn.

Deathskullz
Lucky Gitz: 6++ invuln, all infantry gains objective secured, and you may reroll 1 dice per unit per phase to hit, wound, AND damage. Provides excellent rules for MSU ork lists with a balanced mix of melee and range particularly when the unit has one potent weapon - for example a Deff Dread with a single Kustom Mega Blasta who can make good use of all 6 potential rerolls if he gets a good turn. The 6++ obviously benefits units with 6+ saves the most, and objective secured on all infantry provides an incentive to bring some of the more specialist ork units. Great for Brigades, since it turns certain small units like single Deffcoptas from pretty bad to quite good.
The Fixer Upperz: Gives the big mek repair ability to a model, or improves a big mek's repair ability to automatic 3 wounds. Fun on a deffkilla wartrike to give him regeneration or on a biker big mek because it directly stacks with his "Biker Big Mekaniak" rule to let him repair two things.
Wreckers: Allows one unit to add 1 to wound against vehicles. Decent if costly stratagem, but does go somewhat against to the Deathskullz wish to bring as many small units as possible. You probably should not be using this stratagem too often.
Opportunist: Allows the warlord to reroll 1s to wound vs vehicles and also target enemy characters within 18". This warlord trait has the potential to make certain HQ builds - SAG big mek or Kustom Mega Blasta/Tellyport Blasta big mek in particular - really good at blowing away characters with all their Deathskullz rerolls.

Snakebites
Da Old Ways: 6+++ Feel No Pain. Arguably the best for a green tide list, since their kultur is essentially an army wide Painboy aura that stacks with a KFF.
Monster Hunters: All Snakebites add 1 to wound against a selected enemy model with 10 or more wounds. Good stratagem, but very expensive. If your opponent has a single target, like a knight, and all you want to do is bring it down, this can be good. Otherwise it is a bit niche due to its cost.
Bogrog's Buzzbomb: Single use grenade that causes 3d6 scorcha hits to one target, then another 2d6 to another within 6" of the initial target. Very nice relic, enables something like a deffkilla wartrike to sweep aside a screen in one shot then charge the heavy target behind it.
Surly as a Squiggoth: All models within 6" reroll morale, all gretchin within 12" auto-pass morale. A good trait if your army has a lot of gretchins (particularly more expensive gretchin units like Grot Tanks or Killa Kanz) - but the relatively low power of those units devalues the trait.

Bad Moonz
Armed To Da Teef: Bad moonz have a fairly mediocre trait, combined with DakkaDakkaDakka it roughly equates to getting +1 to hit on BS 5+ units.
Showin' Off: Arguably the best clan-specific stratagem out there, we have already seen ork lists using this to decimate tournaments with mobbed up lootas. Also good with tankbustas, and shoota boyz.
Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy: Excellent if combined with the Supa-Cybork to make an actually surprisingly durable biker HQ or Deffkilla Wartrike. Bad Moonz are typically taken for their shooting units, but this gives them a very interesting tool in their belt.
Gobshot Blunderbuss: Slap it on a Kombi-scorcha to give your HQ model an assault 3d6 heavy flamer. works best with index options because footslogging warbosses aren't the best (and are the only codex character with access to Combi-weaponry besides the Mega-Mek)

Blood Axes
Taktiks: While orks rarely find themselves outside of 18", the gives vehicles a 3+ save and walkers a 2+ save during the first turn, basically a free prepared positions. Falling back and charging or shooting is only useful on a few units like koptas or bonebreakers as most ork units either don't survive two rounds of combat, the enemy wants to get out of combat ASAP or the orks annihilate whatever they have charge anyways, leaving nothing to fall back from.
Dead Sneaky: Allows an INFANTRY unit under 8PL to deep strike for 1CP. It can deep strike units of 20 boyz or 10 tankbustas (+4 squigs). Also useful for deep striking characters. Otherwise, totally redundant with Tellyporta.
I've got a Plan, Ladz: Refund a CP if you use a stratagem on a 6. Since you can gain only one per battle round, and orks tend to burn through most of our CP during the first two turns, just picking Follow Me Ladz! for +1CP might be a better option. Only useful when using lots of CP on Tellyporta and Dead Sneaky since you can get unlimited refunds on those.
Morgarg's finkin cap: Gives the bearer a warlord trait. Basically a relic-for-warlord trait swap. orks have some super nice warlord traits and not a ton of good relics (depending on what clans you're playing) so this could be a good option. Basically free if you buy it of 1 CP if you pick Follow Me Ladz! or I've got a plan, Ladz!

Goffs
No Muckin' About: DakkaDakkaDakka in melee as well as shooting. Certain units like Gorkanauts synergize extra-well with Goffs, and you do have Ghazzy and Zagstruk, two pretty good characters.
Skarboyz: The big thing Goffs bring to the table besides their special characters is Skarboyz. 1CP for S5 Boyz is huge, the only struggle is getting them into combat. Still, even without Evil Sunz ork deep strike is pretty ridiculously reliable at a 59% chance, you'll just have to fling two squads of 30 at your opponent instead of one.
Proper Killy: Proper Killy is slightly worse than Brutal But Kunning. So there is no reason to give a warlord Proper Killy by choice, however, it still makes sense to give Ghazghull the trait if you do take him in your army because it is a significant boost to his killing power.
Da Lucky Stikk: If you're running classic footslogging goffs, you probably have a gaggle of characters in the center of your green tide: Ghazghull, a Painboy, a KFF mek, and a Waaagh Banner nob. It makes good sense to take Da Lucky Stikk in that situation. Classic footslogging isn't that great anymore though


Specialist Detachments

Kult of Speed (from Vigilus Defiant)
Any SPEED FREAK model in the detachment gets the KULT OF SPEED keyword, which is everything on a bike (including warboss and Zardsnark), buggies (including the wartrike) and koptas.
Quick Ladz! (Warlord Trait) - Friendly KULT OF SPEED units within 12" of your Warlord in the morale phase automatically pass Morale tests if they Advanced in the same turn. Unfortunately the rules writers put "turn" instead of "battle round" hence this ability is practically useless. It only operates in your Morale phase (not your opponenets) and it's unlikely you're going to be taking a ton of casualties then anyway.
Skargrim's Snazztrike (relic) - Deffkilla Wartrike only, the bearer gains +1 T and a 5++. T7 vs T6 can be nice and the 5++ is welcome but in reality the Cybork Body is better. The Deffkilla Wartrike tends to race up the board and get into combat ASAP. Few weapons are affected by the difference between T6 and T7 and while you can invest a warlord trait to make a Deffkilla T8, we have other warlord traits which are much more impact.
Turbo Boostas (Stratagem) - For 2CP a KULT OF SPEED unit doubles its movement when advancing instead of rolling a dice. Useful to guarantee a first turn charge or to combine with the Evil Sunz "Drive by Krumpin" stratagem to get exactly where you need to be, quickly. Allows our fastest vehicles the ability to fly across the board, which can also be useful late game to grab/contest objectives or simply keep a unit alive.
Charge through 'em! (Stratagem) For 2CP a KULT OF SPEED unit consolidates 2d6" instead of 3". Probably the best thing about this entire detachment. If you roll a 5"+ consolidation move it is likely you open up possibilities to tie units in combat, tri-point them, or otherwise deny the opponent movement, which can be game winning. If you roll higher still then you can ruin your opponents plans on your first turn and potentially (though this won't be obvious at the time) win the game. It just might do nothing though.

Overall:
Kult of Speed requires investment into mostly mediocre Speed Freek units, but the stratagems can allow those units to perform much better than they normally would and in some cases win you the game. Both stratagems can be game winning but they are hard to use properly and might end up doing nothing but waste your CP because of bad dice rolls.

Stompa Mob (from Vigilus Defiant)
- to be done -

Dread Waaaagh! (from Vigilus Defiant)
- to be done -

Blitz Brigade (from Vigilus Defiant)
Any warbosses (including Thrakka and Zardsnark) and battle wagon variants (including the lifta wagon and Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon) gain the BLITZ BRIGADE keyword
Back-seat driver (Warlord Trait) - As long as your warlord is embarked on a BLITZ BRIGADE TRANSPORT it gains +1" movement and 'ere we go. Since only warbosses can gain this trait and they need to be inside the wagon during the charge phase for 'ere we go, the only real application I see is stacking it with Rezmekka's redder armour to get a bonebreaka with 15" movement speed.
Blitz Shouta (relic) - A character inside a BLITZ BRIGADE BATTLEWAGON (so not gunwagon or bonebreaka, but any of the FW ones) projects a 6" aura which give re-roll ones to hit against a target in sight during shooting. So you would need a warboss (other characters can't be BLITZ brigade) with the relic inside a battlewagon which is somehow within 6" of other BLITZ BRIGADE members which are worth shooting. Unless you have multiple supa-kannon wagons, this relic is a waste of time since the lifta-droppa hits automatically and all codex options don't shoot well enough to sacrifice a relic, a battlewagon and a warboss on them.
Opening Salvo (Stratagem) - For 1CP a gun wagon can double its range during the first turn, meaning you can usually shoot without moving and thus shoot twice. I guess if you brought a gunwagon and bought this detachment, there is no reason to not use it, but it's by no means a reason to get either a gunwagon nor this detachment. Solid meh.
Krush 'em (Stratagem) - For 1CP you get to roll 2d6 for your bonebreaka ram and pick the highest result. It's basically a CP re-roll for the ram with slightly higher average but you need to use it before rolling. Not terrible, but not a reason to pick the detachment.
Hold on, Boyz! (Stratagem) For 2CP a battlewagon (not gunwagon or bonebreaka) can pick up a unit of infantry within 3" of it and drop them within 3" after moving, more than 3" away from enemy models but it cannot charge that turn. Note that the infantry unit can move (and advance) before using this stratagem, so a battlewagon can sling a unit to where it's needed. There are some cute tricks, like mobbing up the dragged unit into combat, taking units out of combat or dropping buff characters where they are needed. Besides that, it's basically stratagem version of Da Jump.

Overall:
The Blitz Brigade tries to coax you into fielding a mix of battlewagons, bonekrushas and gunwagons, but sadly fails miserably at doing so since you can't both go slow and shoot and go fast and krush stuff while hanging around a central command tank. Even if you are running multiple bonekrushas and/or battlewagons, you are better off just using your CP for re-rolls, ramming speed and a relic SAG rather than this specialist detachment.

Top tournament lists
November 2018, Steve Pampreen, Renegade Open GT, 74 players, Winner
Spoiler:

triple battalion (evil suns, bad moons, and mixed)
30 30 30 boyz
10 10 10 10 10 12 grots
10 10 15 kommandos
10 12 lootas
1x warboss
3x weirdboy
1x painboy
1x big mek on bike
1x Snikrot

This list dumps command points into the lootas. Mob up, then double shoot 22 lootas with 5+ DDD. then kill grots when they shoot back. Nick Nanavati referred to this as the Ork castellan.


February 2019, Benjamin Jurek, Athoria First Last Chance GT, 34 players, 3rd Place
Spoiler:
Air Wing Detachement: Orkz, Freebotterz (457p, 1CP)
1 Dakkajet: 6 Supashoota, 148p
1 Dakkajet: 6 Supashoota, 148p
1 Wazbom Blastajet: Wazbom Mega-Kannon, KFF, Smasha Gun, 2 Supashoota, 179

Battalion Detachement: Orkz, Freeboterz (450p, 5CP)
1 Warboss in Mega Armor: PK, Kustom Shoota, 122p
1 Weirdboy: 62p

28 Orkboyz: Nob, Big Choppa, Choppa, 19 Shootaz, 2 Tankbusta Bombs, 201p
10 Grotz: 30p
10 Grotz: 30p

Spearhead Detachement, Orkz, Freebooterz, Vigilus Defiant: Dreadwaaagh (1074p, 1 CP)
1 Big Mek with SAG: Grot Oiler, 84p
1 Weirdboy: 62p

1 Gorkanaut: Deffstorm Mega-Kannon, Klaw of Gork, 2 Rokkit Launcha, 2 Skorcha, 2 Twin Big Shoota, 311p
1 Gorkanaut: Deffstorm Mega-Kannon, Klaw of Gork, 2 Rokkit Launcha, 2 Skorcha, 2 Twin Big Shoota, 311p
1 Morkanaut: Kustom Mega-Zappa, Klaw of Gork, KFF, 2 Rokkit Launcha, 2 Twin Big Shoota, KMB, 310p

total points: 1998p


March 2019, Steven Pampreen (alias bilbo baggins), Adepticon, 3rd Place
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Weirdboy: Da Jump, Weirdboy Staff (62)

HQ: Weirdboy: Da Fist, Weirdboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Heavy Support: 15x Lootas (255)

++ Brigade Detachment (Orks – Deff Skulls, Vigilus) ++
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek on Warbike: KMG, KFF (110)

HQ: Big Mek: Grot Oiler, Warlord: Sniping, Relic: Souped-up Gun (84)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Troops: 10x Grots (30)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Elites: Mad Doc Grotznic (86)

Elites: 5x Kommandoes: 5x Big Shoota x2, Tankbusta Bomb (50)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas: Twin Big Shootas, Big Bomms (40)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

Heavy Support: Mek Guns: Smasha (31)

++ Battalion Detachment (Orks – Bad Moons) ++
HQ: Ork Warboss: Relic: Powerclaw (78)

HQ: Weirdboy: Weirboy Staff (62)

Troops: 10x Boys: 10x Shoota, 1x Tankbusta bombs, Big Choppa (75)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)

Troops: 30x Boys: 30x Shoota, Big Choppa, 3x Tank Busta Bombs (215)


April 2019, Liam Hackett, Briscon (71 players), 2nd Place
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [50 PL, 939pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz



+ HQ +

Warboss [4 PL, 87pts]: Attack Squig, Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]

da jump



+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin



+ Elites +

Meganobz [10x, 20 PL, 350pts] 9x meganobz 1x boss meganobz

. 10x power klaw

. 10x kustum shoota

Meganobz [10x, 20 PL, 350pts] 9x meganobz 1x boss meganobz

. 10x power klaw

. 10x kustum shoota



++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [37 PL, 824pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Bad Moons



+ HQ +

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 80pts]: Shokk Attack Gun



+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin



+ Elites +

Tankbustas [13 PL, 315pts]: 6x Bomb Squig

. Boss Nob: Rokkit Launcha

. 14x Tankbusta: 14x Rokkit Launcha



+ Heavy Support +

Lootas [13 PL, 255pts]: 15x Loota



++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [10 PL, 232pts] ++

Clan Kultur: No Clan (mixed)



+ HQ +

(Blood axe) Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Morgargs Finkin' Cap (free relic), Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun

(Evil suns) Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]

warpath



+ Troops +

(Bad moons) Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

(Bad moons) Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

(Bad moons) Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin



++ Total: [97 PL, 1999pts] ++


June 2019, Scott De Wynter-Wilkie, Amiable Bright GT, Winner
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [41 PL, 8CP, 830pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz


+ HQ [8 PL, 161pts] +
Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 99pts]: Attack Squig, Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw [13pts], Warlord
Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump



+ Troops [33 PL, 669pts] +
Boyz [11 PL, 223pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob [20pts]: Power Klaw [13pts], Slugga

. 6x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [42pts]
. 23x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [161pts]


Boyz [11 PL, 223pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob [20pts]: Power Klaw [13pts], Slugga

. 6x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [42pts]
. 23x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [161pts]


Boyz [11 PL, 223pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob [20pts]: Power Klaw [13pts], Slugga

. 6x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [42pts]
. 23x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa [161pts]


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [33 PL, 3CP, 659pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Bad Moons

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaaagh! [-1CP]


+ HQ [9 PL, 155pts] +
Big Mek (Index) [5 PL, 75pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 80pts]: Da Souped-up Shokka, Shokk Attack Gun [25pts]


+ Troops [3 PL, 90pts] +
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]


+ Heavy Support [13 PL, 255pts] +
Lootas [13 PL, 255pts] . 15x Loota [255pts]


+ Flyer [8 PL, 159pts] +
Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 159pts]: 2x Wazbom Mega-Kannons [24pts], Kustom Force Field [20pts], Smasha Gun [16pts]


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [23 PL, 5CP, 510pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Bad Moons


+ HQ [6 PL, 124pts] +
Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump



+ Troops [3 PL, 90pts] +
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin [30pts]


+ Flyer [14 PL, 296pts] +
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota [60pts]

Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota [60pts]



++ Total: [97 PL, 16CP, 1,999pts] ++


June 2019, PJ Pants, Windy City GT, Winner
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [13 PL, 284pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Deathskulls


+ HQ +
Big Mek on Warbike (Index) [6 PL, 110pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun [4 PL, 84pts]: Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord


+ Troops +
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [46 PL, 915pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Bad Moons


+ HQ +
Warboss [4 PL, 78pts]: Attack Squig, Power Klaw, Shoota (Index)

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]


+ Troops +
Boyz [11 PL, 215pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa


Boyz [11 PL, 215pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga

. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa


Gretchin [4 PL, 90pts] . 30x Gretchin


+ Elites +
Tankbustas [13 PL, 255pts]
. Boss Nob: Rokkit Launcha
. 14x Tankbusta: 14x Rokkit Launcha


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [37 PL, 761pts] ++
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz


+ HQ +
Kaptin Badrukk [5 PL, 84pts] Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]


+ Troops +
Gretchin [4 PL, 72pts]. 24x Gretchin
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin
Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts] . 10x Gretchin


+ Heavy Support +
Flash Gitz [13 PL, 300pts] . 9x Flash Git
. Kaptin: Gitfinda Squig


Mek Gunz [10 PL, 183pts]

. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Traktor Kannon

. Gun: Traktor Kannon


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:00:45


Post by: Grimskul


Thanks a bunch for this Jidmah, much appreciated! You sir, are Warboss of the year (or what's left of it )!

Regarding Zagstruk, I'd say he's in the blue category. He's not a bad choice for a Goff outriders detachment, or as a way to fill the FA slots for a Goff brigade, where you can have MSU stormboyz deepstrike with him to give some extra punch and mobility in an enemy's backfield if you're tellyporting any deff dreadz, meganobz or battlewagons down, as chances are that your opponent will not dedicate too much firepower to eliminate the lesser threats they present. Zagstruk is also an interesting choice for the Proper Killy WL trait Goffs get, as he arguably gets more out of it than Ghazzy, with the extra AP making a big difference for his limited vulcha klaw attacks and an extra AP on his choppa attacks. With 5 S6 AP-1 attacks and 3 S8 AP-4 attacks, it's a decent amount of damage output considering he's only 88 points. Throw in the 5+ FNP and he's surprisingly durable as well. You definitely need to build a list around him or Goffs, but otherwise is one of the better characters in our codex to consider.

Snikrot is effectively yellow, since you really need to build around him due to being locked into the Blood Axe Kultur. Despite his aura helping out fellow kommandos, I actually feel like he's better off on his own since his character status makes it so that opponents have to go out of their way to target him if he's on a far away objective. His extra survivability from being T5 and having a 3+ save against most small arms fire (assuming he's in cover, which he should be) makes it require opponents to either have units try to kill him in assault, or dedicate firepower that isn't being directed to more prominent threats in your army. He can readily handle smaller backfield units like Scouts but otherwise is fairly lacklustre in CC compared to Zagstruk and other killy characters, making him largely unsuited to assassinating characters sadly. He's the cheapest character we have but as a glorified objective holder, he's only good for filling HQ slots if you're playing Blood Axes.

Mad Dok Grotsnik is Red, because he doubles down on being even more expensive than a regular Painboy, which is already a situational choice, by paying extra points for questionable added toughness. T5 and 5+ FNP alongside a 4+ save isn't worth the premium price for his services, especially since most Painboyz don't want to be in combat. If he had better healing abilities (e.g., a flat 3 wounds or D3+1 being healed, or giving a 5+ FNP aura instead of 6+) then he might be considered, but given that he also has the bizarre caveat of One Scalpel Short of a Medpack, he's generally not worth taking, especially since he fills an elite slot rather than an HQ.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:02:13


Post by: PiñaColada


Good job on the first page. I'd say that the mini-mek might be a pretty decent guy to throw Rezmekkas redder armour on and have him inside a Bonebreaka.

Are you planning on doing (or having someone else do) analysis on warlord traits and strats as well?

Also, minor thing but Skarboyz are not written as Scar boyz
We iz edjukated orkz


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:05:20


Post by: Quackzo


The Mini Mek can serve a purpose in being the cheapest model to carry a relic. This translates into paying 22-29 points and removing 1 seat in an Evil Sunz transport to provide it with Rezmekka's Redder Armour.

PiñaColada wrote:
Good job on the first page. I'd say that the mini-mek might be a pretty decent guy to throw Rezmekkas redder armour on and have him inside a Bonebreaka.


Whoops someone beat me to it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:09:26


Post by: Vineheart01


Minimek is also viable to stuff inside a naut if you dont have the points for something proper to stuff inside (3manz, 6 nobz) since he atleast repairs it every turn, and KMSlugga is still a Kustom Mega, though its 12", so after turn1 he can just hop out and hide behind the naut to keep fixing it and pop whoever is within 12"

Otherwise yeah i agree kinda pointless. Even with index options not amazing.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:14:54


Post by: lord_blackfang


Minimeks are for unlocking Brigades! Filling 3 of every other slot with something useful is fairly trivial, but Elites are pretty tricky.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:27:33


Post by: the_scotsman


I've done a similarly TL;DR analysis of relics and warlord traits at this point, including a fairly indepth look at all four, count em four, of our direct combat buff warlord traits. Seems my unit analysis was somewhat helpful in constructing the OP if you want to have these as a second opinion then feel free!

Spoiler:

Ork Relic Analysis
Burned Git Bones: Situational

May be useful if you don't have a lot of boyz around ready to give your weirdboyz a boost, particularly if you want to buff up your weirdboy to being a warphead.

Da Dead Shiny Shoota: Unviable

You know how every relic that makes a crappy ranged weapon slightly less crappy is useless? This one is also useless. See also: gitstoppa shells.

Da Killa Klaw: Auto-include

You know when this relic is talked about in nearly every character analysis, it’s a good ‘un. It gets not one, not two, but THREE huge bonuses: no -1 to hit, flat 3 damage, and reroll to wounds. Absolutely amazing. Combine with the Brutal But Kunnin warlord trait to make our very own Smash Captain – a must if you’re planning on putting the relic on a character like a Dok on bike who doesn’t get a native 2+ to hit.

‘Eadwhoppa’s Killchoppa: Situational

Unfortunately this little lovely will now be forever in a Killa Klaw shaped shadow, but as it stands, it’s not actually that bad, and in my opinion, quite worth the extra 1CP if you’ve got two choppy characters, like say a Dok on bike with the Klaw and a warboss on bike with this.

Gitstopping Bullets: Unviable

No. Worse than the Dead Shiny Shoota at everything, still bad.

Supa Cybork Body: Situational

That situation is: I have a Deffkilla Wartrike and I want him to be more durable. The Supa-Cybork is worth an extra CP to make your Deffkilla somewhat harder to (deff) kill. If you don’t have your heart set on a second relic then you won’t be sad if you throw this on your wartrike. Combines extra nicely with the Bad Moonz warlord trait giving you a surprisingly tanky trike!
Gobshot Blunderbuss (Bad Moonz Only): Situational

Not great, but absolutely hilarious. A character with 3 heavy flamers is ridiculously fun. I really want to see this on a Big Mek in Mega Armor who also has tellyport blastas, just because I think it would be amazing to watch him pile out of a battlewagon and hose down a whole infantry screen by himself with Showin’ Off.

Morgarg’s Finkin’ Cap (Blood Axes): Good

Initially this one didn’t look great, but we have some excellent warlord traits and some pretty lackluster relics on the whole. If you’re running Blood Axes, this is actually probably your best bet for your second relic. Bonus if one of your two traits is Follow Me Ladz, making this one a freebie!

Da Fixer Uppas (Deathskullz): Situational
Kind of funny on a wartrike, giving him the ability to self-regenerate, but kind of silly in most situations. I’m not sure this is worth a CP most of the time.

Rezmekka’s Redder Armor (Evil Sunz): Situational
I’d say this one is worth a CP if you’re throwing this on a cheap character like a Mek in a slower transport like a Morkanaut to help it get up the field, but the mortal wound passive is super unlikely to ever happen. If you structured your list around including it, it would not be bad.

Badskull Banner (Freebootas): Situational

Given the results of the FAQ, I feel like we’re going to be seeing a lot of grot-heavy (and therefore morale weak) Freeboota detachments. Because the Grots rule applies only to Kultur and Stratagems, and not to relics, there’s no reason you can’t use this to give yourself morale-immune Grots, Killa Kanz, etc. Should you pass up better relics to use it? No. Is it the worst relic? I definitely don’t think so.

Da Lucky Stikk (Goffs): Good
This is the relic to make you wish you could take multiple relics on the same guy or relics on named characters. Man oh man would this be so good on Ghazzy… As it stands though it seems like it’s pretty tailor made for something like a Biker Dok with Killsaw. Sadly, most ork characters hit on 2s anyway so the secondary effect of add 1 to character hit rolls is somewhat wasted.
Brogs Buzzbomb (Snakebites): Good
Once per game, your character can put down 5D6 S5 Ap-1 autohitting shots. Now I want to see a cheese strat involving a Bad Moonz Big Mek in Mega Armor with Gobshot Blunderbuss combined with a Snakebites Deffkilla Wartrike with Brogs Buzzbomb. Drive up to infantry screen. Fire 12D6 S5 AP-1 autohitting shots. Profit!

Warlord Trait Analysis

‘Ard as Nails – Unviable

I guess the question here is just – why? You could make a T7 Deffkilla with it, but having a slightly tougher warlord really doesn’t have much of a shine to it compared to the massive, massive damage output we can get out of other traits.

Big Killa Boss, Brutal But Kunnin, Might is Right, Proper Killy

It makes sense to analyze these together, because they are all in direct competition with one another. This direct competition means that it’s pretty easy to narrow down which one is best in most situations.
I’ve evaluated the average damage output of four characters that I would consider you likely to want to improve with a combat-oriented warlord trait: A Deffkilla Wartrike, a Warboss with Killa Klaw+Attack Squig, and a Painboy with Killa Klaw (primarily to analyze the effect on a character who does not hit on 2s.) I pit them against three different targets: A standard T7 3+ vehicle, a Knight-equivalent T8 3+ vehicle, and a “scary character with invuln” using the custode biker T6 3++ statline.

The analysis shows that right off the bat, Big Killa Boss provides the least benefit in all three instances. Since it’s also conditional (vehicle/monster only) it should pretty much be disregarded.

The other two conditional traits, Proper Killy and Brutal But Kunnin (both only on the charge/when charged), took second and first place overall in terms of damage improvement. Because they are mutually exclusive, unless you soup Goffs and Blood Axes to get both on the table with the Thinkin’ Cap, Proper Killy should be disregarded for Brutal But Kunnin unless you are forced to take Proper Killy (Ghazghull as a warlord.)
Might is Right actually works the best of all four traits against the high-invuln character. If you’re facing daemon princes or custode biker captains and you want to go this route, Might is Right will actually allow a warboss or deffkilla with the Killa Klaw to one-round one of those characters on average with two rounds of combat (Get Stuck In or Orks is Never Beaten). While this is a positive trade for you pointswise you are giving up a warlord kill, and orks do have lots of efficient high-volume melee attacks and low-AP-high-damage ranged weapons that would probably be better solutions. The non-conditional nature of Might is Right doesn’t do much for me, because BBK allows you to one-round pretty much any standard vehicle target with one of these beatstick characters, and in the case of fighting a knight, your odds of surviving more than one round are fairly astronomical, and it’s most likely that you’d rather deal your 18 wounds on average with BBK and Orks is Never Beaten if you’re using your boss as a suicide missile against knights.

With that explanation, I’m ranking Might is Right and Brutal but Kunnin as “Good”, Proper Killy as “Situational (Ghazghull)” and Big Killa Boss as “Unviable” because it is never good better than BBK.

Follow Me, Ladz: Situational

This trait is quite good if you want to avoid running a warboss in a list where you could use his aura. Deffskullz like it a LOT because the value of Big Meks (with their kustom mega blastas) is hugely increased. For Blood Axes it is essentially a freebie with the Thinkin’ Kap relic, as this trait grants you 1 CP. For other clans it might be handy to save points, say slapping it on a KFF big mek to make a Snakebites green tide list extra points efficient – you’re Snakebites so you save on a Painboy AND you save on needing a Warboss, while still getting their effects. Those point savings make up for the 1pt nerf on 155 boyz, if you don’t like having your green tide list from the index nerfed.

Kunnin But Brutal: Situational

I have had access to this trait in several of my codexes, and I haven’t much loved it there, either. The best case use of this is to stick your Warlord in a transport (so you can auto-scoop that one) and then select your D3 units from DIFFERENT transports, which can be full of units. A mounted up list can easily redeploy everything they start on the board, which can be funny, but given the pace of 8th I’m not sure how impactful that is versus the cost of deploying all your eggs in just a couple baskets.

Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy (Bad Moonz): Good

I’m kind of in love with this one. Combine with the Supa-Cybork and you’ve got yourself nearly a completely new beast in the deffkilla wartrike- almost like a Sheeld Kaptin’ On Wazzy Jetbike! In fact, the Deffkilla with this trait and relic combo takes more shots to kill with any weapon that has AP-1 or more than the ubiquitous bike captain with 3++ relic. And he’s got an always-on 5+ save vs mortal wounds and a 1cp stratagem to make him -1 to hit for the whole turn! Huehuehuehue.

I’ve got a Plan, Ladz! (Blood Axes): Situational

THERE’S the CP regeneration trait! It’s fine. Strictly a worse version of DE Labyrinthine Cunning, and our Hqs have a habit of not standing around in the backfield staying alive all game. But if you like CPs, and of course you do. Unfortunately Orks do have a lot of more than 1cp stratagems and pregame stratagems we’ll want to be using, and you won’t get to roll for those with this trait.

Opportunist (Deathskullz): Good

This trait jives wonderfully with the kinds of HQs Deathskullz like to bring. Slap it on a KMB/Tellyport Blasta mega armor big mek if you want maximum hilarity, but feel free to just slap it on a regular KMB mek and it’ll still provide solid value.
Speed Freek(Evil Sunz): Good

The second half of this trait is really the impactful one, letting your Evil Sunz bikers and vehicles cheerfully charge again and again, bopping into targets as their hearts desire. Tends to be less crazy potent than you expect, but still nice enough that I’ve taken it over combat traits several times and never not gotten good use out of it.

Killa Reputation (Freebootas): Good

If you’re taking a Freebootas non-soup list, this trait is 100% your go-to. If you’re souping Freebootas in and just taking them as a shooty half of another list, then take something else. Giving a Captain (Kaptin) buff for combat is about as good as it sounds if your list isn’t entirely shooting focused, but it gets even crazier when you consider the gulf between 2+ and 2+ rerollable to hit, which is exactly where most of your orks will be going when you pop that freeboota kultur in the fight phase.

Surly As a Squiggoth (Snakebites): Situational

The second half of this trait is really what you’re looking at. The situation you want is “Do I want Killa Kanz in my list? If the answer is yes, then you probably don’t want to leave home without this trait.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Minimeks are for unlocking Brigades! Filling 3 of every other slot with something useful is fairly trivial, but Elites are pretty tricky.


Kommandos
Kommandos
Kommandos

Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thoughts on the Trukk:

Dark Blue/Situational rating. Sometimes the unit you want to transport is just too small for a battlewagon and you need a smaller transport, and the trukk functions fine in this role. If you are in an environment where Forgeworld is allowed however, it is somewhat tricky to say no to the value provided by the Chinork Warkopta.

For 15 additional points it gains 4" of movement, Fly, 2 free bigbomms, 2 free Deffguns, free deepstrike, the option to exchange its crappy big shoota for a Kustom Mega Blasta which is amazing in shooty Kulturs. it is slightly less durable, dropping in toughness, wounds and losing the Ramshackle rule, but it is tough to not call the chinork a better trukk in all respects.

Not everyone can use forgeworld though, or wants to invest hundreds of dollars in fugly weird helicopters that might have their good rules nerfed to gak without warning, so for those people Trukks are perfectly adequate. Put things in them that aren't worth investing the CP to deepstrike or the points to buy a deffrolla battlewagon for!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:47:20


Post by: BaconCatBug


Meks are cheaper than Kommandos for Brigades and able to hide behind Mek Gunz due to CHARACTER. They can also fix up the Gunz.

Tellyporta has basically made Da Jump redundant. I'd rather a guaranteed placement on Turn 2 after clearing out bubble wrap than risking a whiff on Turn 1 and only being able to charge screens.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:52:04


Post by: Grimskul


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Meks are cheaper than Kommandos for Brigades and able to hide behind Mek Gunz due to CHARACTER. They can also fix up the Gunz.

Tellyporta has basically made Da Jump redundant. I'd rather a guaranteed placement on Turn 2 after clearing out bubble wrap than risking a whiff on Turn 1 and only being able to charge screens.


I feel like T1 Da Jumps are definitely not a strong tactic anymore due to how exposed they are when they arrive. However, I think it doesn't invalidate T2 usage of Da Jump to supplement the units that you decide to tellyport, for one it doesn't cost CP's, and you still need some form of backfield presence anyways for a lot of objectives (at least in Maelstrom), so keeping a mob of boyz behind to jump T2 isn't terrible.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 17:52:06


Post by: the_scotsman


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Meks are cheaper than Kommandos for Brigades and able to hide behind Mek Gunz due to CHARACTER. They can also fix up the Gunz.

Tellyporta has basically made Da Jump redundant. I'd rather a guaranteed placement on Turn 2 after clearing out bubble wrap than risking a whiff on Turn 1 and only being able to charge screens.


True, I pretty much use Da Jump only for units I want to be dedicated screen clearers. And if my opponent had a second layer, I'd use tellyporta.

If my opponent has a wall of guardsmen/tzaangors/cultists/fire warriors sitting in front of their stuff, I'd send in boyz via da jump.

If they have something like 10 scouts, 3 scout sentinels or some other unit designed to make deep strike inefficient, I'd use Tellyport.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:01:47


Post by: Vineheart01


Nothing says Da Jump has to be super hyper aggressive.
A T1 Jump could be literally to move a unit more forward, like if you have a bottleneck deployment zone. Advance one unit, if it rolls ass just move it aside a bit so the other can advance then Da Jump the one that rolled badly out front anyway.

Or for that matter, use it to get the grotshield in a good spot.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:08:56


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nothing says Da Jump has to be super hyper aggressive.
A T1 Jump could be literally to move a unit more forward, like if you have a bottleneck deployment zone. Advance one unit, if it rolls ass just move it aside a bit so the other can advance then Da Jump the one that rolled badly out front anyway.

Or for that matter, use it to get the grotshield in a good spot.
True, using it for Grot Shields seems to be the best use since you can't Tellyport grots (without putting them in a transport).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:15:38


Post by: the_scotsman


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nothing says Da Jump has to be super hyper aggressive.
A T1 Jump could be literally to move a unit more forward, like if you have a bottleneck deployment zone. Advance one unit, if it rolls ass just move it aside a bit so the other can advance then Da Jump the one that rolled badly out front anyway.

Or for that matter, use it to get the grotshield in a good spot.
True, using it for Grot Shields seems to be the best use since you can't Tellyport grots (without putting them in a transport).


Or by firing a shokk attack gun.

Zing!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:16:00


Post by: tneva82


 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nothing says Da Jump has to be super hyper aggressive.
A T1 Jump could be literally to move a unit more forward, like if you have a bottleneck deployment zone. Advance one unit, if it rolls ass just move it aside a bit so the other can advance then Da Jump the one that rolled badly out front anyway.

Or for that matter, use it to get the grotshield in a good spot.


Or reposition loota/tankbusta from out of los. And of course da jump can be used all turns. Last tournament game was basically won by t3 da jumping 10 grots. Da jump is best spell orks have


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:24:49


Post by: Frowbakk


Ork Triple Battalion 1999 points, Battle Forged: + 3 CP (-3 CP for Extra Gubbinz) 13 CP left after list construction.
Spoiler:


Bad Moon Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 772 points [Re-roll 1’s in Shooting Phase]

.120 HQ Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord: Da Best Armor Dere Iz: 4++), Supa Cybork Body: 5+++

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warhpead w/ Da Jump, Fist of Gork (Buff Da Warlord)

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Grot Shields for Lootas, expect every single one of them to die in your opponents first turn)

.170 HEAVY 10 Lootas (Turn 1: 1 CP to Mob Up with other Lootas AFTER Finkin Kap deployed to get 6+ CP Farm’n)

.255 HEAVY 15 Lootas

[b]Evil Sunz Battalion[/b] (+5 CP) 907 points [+1” to Charges, +1” to Move (2” iff Speed Freeks)]

. 91 HQ Warboss on Warbike (Index) w/ Big Choppa = Headwoppa’s Killchoppa

.120 HQ Zhadsnark Da Ripper (Forge World) w/ Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

.215 TROOP 30 Shoota Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 1: Da Jump’d/3CP to Unlimited Greed Tide ‘recycle’ in Turn 2)

.223 TROOP 30 Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 2: Da Jump’d after Mob Up)

. 75 TROOP 10 Choppa Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, Tankbusta Bomb (Turn 2: 1 CP to Mob Up w/above)

.103 ELITE Painboy on Warbike (Index) w/’Urty Syringe, Power Klaw (1 CP to throw a Medi-Squig at Warlord)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (One to fly ahead with 3 Bikes & a Trike to keep them untargetable)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (Also a good source to buff Mob Up’d Choppa Boyz with Loot It! later in the game)

Blood Axe Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 320 points [Counts as in Cover > 18”, may Shoot OR Charge after Falling Back]

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts], Finkin Kap: I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (CP Farming on a 6+)

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Can’t be used for Grot Shields due to <CLAN> mismatch, therefore Objective Grabbers)

. 93 HEAVY Mek Gunz: 3x Smasha Kannons


The Evil Suns are there to charge, as supported by their Kulture.

The Bad Moons are there to shoot, as supported by their Kulture (I'll need to get a dice-rolling app to be kind to my opponents).

The Blood Axes are there to be sneaky gits. (Tactics ain’t a breath mint, y’all…)

Spoiler:
Everything should be deployed under a KFF's 5++ protection so no need to waste CP on Prepared Positions even if going second. So much better than trying to improve 6+ saves which can still be whittled away by AP.

For the Evil Sunz Battalion: 3 Bikes & a Trike (OK, so he’s a Bad Moon, but still…) should get off a first turn charge on something, Biker Painboy should keep 'em in combat a little longer. 30 Shoota Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP the next turn where the reappear 'Outflanking' and able to shoot away again. Turn 2 the 10 Choppa Boyz can Mob Up with 30 Choppa Boyz, and get Warpath'd and Da Jump'd into probable charge range of whatever the Bikes & Trike didn't kill and Heroically Intervene into during my opponent's turn.

As for the Bad Moonz, the Big Mek with the KFF is there to hide behind the Choppa Boyz mobs and be untargetable while KFF escorting the Evil Sunz boyz and both Weirdboyz. Good thing KFF's and Psyker shenanigans don't care about <CLAN> mismatches. The Lootas are to find anywhere (preferably in cover) with good lines of fire, Mob Up into a unit of 25 first thing and Dakka ad infinitius, uber alles, ad nauseam.

The Blood Axe Big Mek with the Finkin Kap will cover the Lootas under his KFF umbrella and keep the CP farm going as long as possible. He can also repair the Smasha Guns, and for his graduate studies project in sneaky-gitted-ness; have the Mob Up’d Lootas use Loot It! on a destroyed Smasha Gun, have the Lootas refund the CP for it on a 4+ AND farm the CP on a 6+. Remember the (preferably in cover) from just above? That way the Lootas can get a 4+ regular save to help them stick around even longer once all of those Gretchin have been used up by Grot Shields, so deploy those Smasha Guns nearby.

Extra sneaky git shenanigan-ness: The Deffkilla Wartike can move again at the end of the Shooting Phase (your own, not your opponents… don’t be THAT guy…) with the Stratagem: Drive By Krumpin', but is not allowed to charge. However, as a Character the Defkilla Wartrike may still Heroically Intervene its' way into combat. A loophole in the rules big enough to drive a Defkilla Wartike through, conveniently enough. <<<THIS IS WRONG!!! A Character can ONLY Heroically Intervene in their Opponent's turn.

Your opponent have an annoying Character buffing nearby units? Consider sniping with Deff Koptas by either moving close enough so that character is the closest target, or by using Ramming Speed and putting some Mortal Wounds on ‘em.

I'm really looking forward to playing Orks.




EDIT: Including my post on Stratagems & timing since I have this post on the front page and it might be easier to find this way.



Stratagems and Timing for Orksezes, by Frowbakk, Duh Brain Boy.
<CLAN> is one of the most common limiting factors with Stratagems. For some reason an Evil Suns Painboy can't or won't heal a Bad Moons model, and vice versa. I will put other restrictions in the same <brackets> which will show the Keyword required to use the Stratagem.

For example: If you've been using the 3 CP - Get Stuck In Lads! in order to Fight a second time in the Fight Phase with anything other than <Infantry>, AND only at the End of the Fight Phase you've been using it wrong.

In Your Turn
Spoiler:
List Construction/Pre-game
1 CP/3CP - Extra Gubbinz
1 CP - Warphead
2 CP - 'Ard Boyz ><May only Mob Up with other CLAN 'Ard Boyz>
1 CP - Skarboyz <Goff, May only Mob Up with other Goff Skarboyz>

Deployment
2 CP - Tellyporta <Reserve one unit under 20 PL>
1 CP/2 CP - Dead Sneaky <1 CP = Reserve Blood Axe Infantry of 8 PL or less, 2 CP = Blood Axe Infantry of 9 PL or More>

Start of Battle Round
3 CP - Force Field Projeckta <One Use>

Movement Phase
1 CP - Billowing Exhaust Clouds <At Start of Phase, Speed Freeks>
1 CP - Snagga Grapple <Deffkilla Wartrike, use when Falling Back before actually Moving, on a 2+ do d3 Mortal Wounds>
1 CP - Mob Up <At End of Phase, CLAN> Mob Up'd units do NOT count as destroyed for any Victory Conditions
1 CP - Medi Squig <At End of Phase, Heal d3 Wounds to CLAN Character within 3" of CLAN Painboy>
3 CP - Unstoppable Green Tide <At End of Phase, Boyz Unit under half strength not previously Mob Up'd>
1 CP - Command Re-Roll <Any single dice not previously re-rolled by another ability>

Psychic Phase (None Specific, but included here are the Stratagems able to be triggered at any time or at Start of any phase)
1 CP - Command Re-Roll <Any single dice not previously re-rolled by another ability>
1 CP - Loot It! <If a Vehicle destroyed within 3" or an embarked unit of Infantry on the destroyed vehicle>
1 CP - Monster Hunters <Snakebite , At Start of Phase target one model of 10 or more Wounds until End of Phase>
2 CP - Wreckers <Deathskulls, At Start of Phase target one Vehicle until End of Phase>
2 CP - Orks Is Never Beaten <Ork Character when Slain> Might apply if a Weirdboy is in Close Combat and Perils

Shooting Phase
1 CP - Extra Stikkbombz <At Start of Phase, Infantry>
1 CP - Long Uncontrolled Bursts <At Start of Phase and Ork Vehicle with Fly can target enemy units with Fly>
3 CP - Kill-Kroozer Broadside <Freebooterz, At Start of Phase, One use per battle>
2 CP - More Dakka! <Use before a unit shoots, lasts until the End of Shooting Phase>
2 CP - Showin' Off <Bad Moons Infantry Only, Use Immediately after the Infantry unit resolved shooting>
1 CP - Drive-By Krumpin' <Evil Suns Speed Freeks, At End of own Shooting Phase>
Command Re-Roll & Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Charge Phase
2 CP - Ramming Speed <Vehicle, on a 2+ does d3 Mortal Wounds within 1”>
Command Re-Roll & Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Fight Phase
3 CP - Get Stuck In, Ladz! <Infantry, Use at End of Fight Phase, Select an Infantry Unit which has already fought and fight again>
1 CP - Boarding Action <At End of Phase, Target enemy Vehicle w/o Fly within 1" of Trukk or Battlewagon>
2 CP - Orks Is Never Beaten <Ork Character when Slain>
Command Re-Roll & Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Morale Phase
2 CP - Insane Bravery <Use before rolling to automatically pass a Morale Test>
1 CP - Command Re-Roll <Any single dice not previously re-rolled by another ability>
Loot It! may apply to larger units of Killa Kans removed due to a failed Morale Test.





Opponent's Start of Battle Round
2 CP - Prepared Positions <Use at Start of Game when going 2nd>
3 CP - Force Field Projeckta <One Use>

Opponent's Movement Phase (Nothing)

Opponent's Psychic Phase
1 CP - Command Re-Roll <Any single dice not previously re-rolled by another ability> for a Deny The Witch test
1 CP - Loot It! <If a Vehicle destroyed within 3"or an embarked unit of Infantry on the destroyed Vehicle>
2 CP - Orks Is Never Beaten <Ork Character when Slain>
Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Opponent's Shooting Phase
1 CP - Grot Shields <CLAN Infantry, Use when a Non-Gretchin Unit is Hit by a Ranged Weapon>
2 CP - Orks Is Never Beaten <Ork Character when Slain>
Command Re-Roll & Loot It! may also apply

Opponent's Charge Phase
2 CP - Showin' Off <Bad Moons Infantry Only, Use Immediately after the Infantry unit resolved shooting> for Overwatch
Command Re-Roll & Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Opponent's Fight Phase
2CP - Counter-Offensive <Use right after an Enemy that Charged has fought>
3 CP - Get Stuck In, Ladz! <Infantry Only, at End of Phase select an Infantry Unit to fight.>

1 CP - Boarding Action <At End of Phase, Target enemy Vehicle w/o Fly within 1" of Trukk or Battlewagon>
2 CP - Orks Is Never Beaten <Ork Character when Slain>
Command Re-Roll & Also Monster Hunters, Wreckers, and Loot It! may apply.

Opponent's Morale Phase (Nothing)
But... Loot It! may apply if your opponent loses a <Vehicle> to a Morale Test within 3".
.


Interesting thing while composing this list of Stratagems was More Dakka! was restricted to the Shooting Phase, while Showin' Off for Bad Moons Infantry was not... So that Bad Moons Index Big Mek with the Thunderbluss stuck onto the Komb-Skorcha with second Kombi-Skorcha for 4d6 S5, AP-1 Autohits could Overwatch twice for just 89 points. Don't get cute thinking you can stick him on a Warbike from the Index, because Showin' Off is for Bad Moon INFANTRY units only.

You'd only ever get it off once, sad to say, before your opponents all Dread-socked you


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:25:22


Post by: Jadenim


Could you throw up a key for the colours; red yellow and green are fairly obvious, but not clear on the difference between cyan and blue.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 18:40:52


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Jadenim wrote:
Could you throw up a key for the colours; red yellow and green are fairly obvious, but not clear on the difference between cyan and blue.
It's in Good to Bad order top to bottom. Green is Best, Cyan is Good, Blue is Average, Yellow is Bad and Red is Trash.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:15:31


Post by: PiñaColada


Quick question, and probably mostly irrelevant, but still. If I have a 10 man mob unit and 2 ammo runts that I chuck "Loot it" on, do the runts also get a +1 to their saves? Since they are apart of the nob unit and not entirely made up of gretchins


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:23:54


Post by: BaconCatBug


PiñaColada wrote:
Quick question, and probably mostly irrelevant, but still. If I have a 10 man mob unit and 2 ammo runts that I chuck "Loot it" on, do the runts also get a +1 to their saves? Since they are apart of the nob unit and not entirely made up of gretchins
Yes, the Ammo Runts get the bonus too.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:24:29


Post by: Perfect Organism


PiñaColada wrote:
Quick question, and probably mostly irrelevant, but still. If I have a 10 man mob unit and 2 ammo runts that I chuck "Loot it" on, do the runts also get a +1 to their saves? Since they are apart of the nob unit and not entirely made up of gretchins
I don't see any reason they wouldn't.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:26:31


Post by: Javadog


I've seen both here and in other places that the general consensus on the Boomdakka Snazzwagon seems to be that it is not a strong contender for any list outside of casual games, and even then you're hampering yourself. What would it need to make it a reasonable choice over, say, the KBB? Or is it less a problem with the model's rules and more an issue with the fact that other codex entries do its job better?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:31:21


Post by: BAN


What would you put in bonebreakers?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:34:57


Post by: Javadog


BAN wrote:
What would you put in bonebreakers?

Seems to me that the top choices are either nobs or MANZ, with your liking of characters thrown in for taste. The smaller transport capacity and lack of open top makes me hesitant to want to put in boys or tankbustas.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:38:02


Post by: Vineheart01


2 squads of 6 Nobz or a squad of 10 with 2 ammos for eating some multiwounds/transport boom deaths


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:44:07


Post by: the_scotsman


 Javadog wrote:
I've seen both here and in other places that the general consensus on the Boomdakka Snazzwagon seems to be that it is not a strong contender for any list outside of casual games, and even then you're hampering yourself. What would it need to make it a reasonable choice over, say, the KBB? Or is it less a problem with the model's rules and more an issue with the fact that other codex entries do its job better?


Since it is the "snazz" wagon, it's weapon the mek speshul has the statline of 3 snazzguns, but unfortunately they used the old index profile (S5 AP-2 D1) instead of the new codex profile (S6 AP-2 D2). That would have been an excellent place to start. Also, there are a number of things you could use on the model to improve the profile - for example, give it two burna grenades because 2 crewmembers have one, or give it two big shootas because there's a second one beside the triple barreled mek speshul.

Sadly, it's trying to be the "anti-chaff' buggy, but that moves it into a highly contested zone in the ork codex where it's got competition from ubiquitous units like bikes and boyz...and they tend to blow it out of the water in terms of damage output. That's before you even get into units like the Dakkajet, which is just a 100% better version of almost exactly the same thing.

I think a "red" rating might be a bit harsh personally - I'd not rank it alongside the utterly insulting squigbuggy since, hey, it's got a few things going for it. I've found the -1 to hit and the nasty explodes rule tends to make it the lowest priority target for people, so in playtests I actually have had it regularly keep acting for 3-4 turns, even when I'm sliding it up to 6" away and chucking the burna bombs. It just doesn't make a huge amount of impact and I've really found myself wishing that it shared the mortal wound on the charge ability that makes the KBB feel like it's got so much more impact. The number of times the two vehicles with that rule have just popped in and finished a unit off, or pushed their casualties over the point where they take a mean morale test is pretty surprising.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I tend to suspect that the weirdly high point cost of the snazzwagon might be due to its longevity in the less competitive playtesting games run by Games workshop. In my games that are set up more casually (i.e. two armies not optimized for removing each other from the table by turn 3) the BDSW has slowly made its points back.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 19:54:34


Post by: BaconCatBug


The problem with the Bonebreaker and MANZ is you can't slap any ablative bodies in for when the transport gets destroyed. Losing MANZ to emergency disembark is not good. If I was going to transport MANZ, I'd slap 7 in a BattleWagon, with 5 Kommandos in as ablative bodies for when the BattleWagon dies, plus a Nob with Banner if I was feeling cheeky.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:25:40


Post by: BAN


Yeh, just feels like it’s gotta be something melee orientated in transports as generally it’s the stratagems that make ork shooting dangerous.
Tankbustas are great but the range is too low to footslog and they get not stratagems in a transport so they become a suicide unit... that’s all well and good but Lootas can sit at the back with a grot screen and have all the stratagems they like


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:28:03


Post by: PiñaColada



Hey, that's a 4+ in cover, those are some dead 'ard grots! Fills my heart with joy picturing the little gribblies scurrying around & trying to find whatever metal plates were left behind by the nobs

Edit: Also exalted (whatever that does) for a legit chuckle


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem with the Bonebreaker and MANZ is you can't slap any ablative bodies in for when the transport gets destroyed. Losing MANZ to emergency disembark is not good. If I was going to transport MANZ, I'd slap 7 in a BattleWagon, with 5 Kommandos in as ablative bodies for when the BattleWagon dies, plus a Nob with Banner if I was feeling cheeky.

Wouldn't 5 MANZ and 10 grots work better? Then at least you could sorround the MANZ and grot shield them if the battlewagon blows up


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:42:14


Post by: G00fySmiley


I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:47:20


Post by: BaconCatBug


PiñaColada wrote:
Wouldn't 5 MANZ and 10 grots work better? Then at least you could sorround the MANZ and grot shield them if the battlewagon blows up
I don't think 5 MANZ has enough punch to be worth it. You might as well just go full WAAC and take 5 grots in an Aux detachment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:52:49


Post by: Tibs Ironblood


 BaconCatBug wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Wouldn't 5 MANZ and 10 grots work better? Then at least you could sorround the MANZ and grot shield them if the battlewagon blows up
I don't think 5 MANZ has enough punch to be worth it. You might as well just go full WAAC and take 5 grots in an Aux detachment.


Paying a command point and losing a whole detachment allotment for literally 5 grots is hardly WAAC.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:54:04


Post by: tneva82


BAN wrote:
Yeh, just feels like it’s gotta be something melee orientated in transports as generally it’s the stratagems that make ork shooting dangerous.
Tankbustas are great but the range is too low to footslog and they get not stratagems in a transport so they become a suicide unit... that’s all well and good but Lootas can sit at the back with a grot screen and have all the stratagems they like


31.5" is short range? Enemy has to deploy pretty much far away to avoid that one.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 20:56:27


Post by: Vineheart01


never unederstood why people think 24" is short.

The deadzone for deployment is 24". This literally means unless theyre opposite ends of the table you can move and hit them. 24" just means you cant shoot across the table, big deal how often do you have NOTHING to shoot in 24" without being on the verge of victory already, or someone is actively avoiding that 24" bubble?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 21:32:24


Post by: PiñaColada


 BaconCatBug wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Wouldn't 5 MANZ and 10 grots work better? Then at least you could sorround the MANZ and grot shield them if the battlewagon blows up
I don't think 5 MANZ has enough punch to be worth it. You might as well just go full WAAC and take 5 grots in an Aux detachment.

I dunno, 5 double-saw MANZ do some work. Problem is that you can't fit them, 10 grots and the waagh banner all in the same BW. Of course, you could just run a bonebreaka alongside it, since those are seriously good anyways. Considering many people are going to be running 2-3 weirdboys it's pretty likely you have warpath in there as well..


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 21:50:00


Post by: Javadog


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.

Does the big shoota hit on 4s though? I thought that was just the grot blasta.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 21:54:13


Post by: Straight_Memer


 Frowbakk wrote:
Ork Triple Battalion 1999 points, Battle Forged: + 3 CP (-3 CP for Extra Gubbinz) 13 CP left after list construction.
Spoiler:


Bad Moon Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 772 points [Re-roll 1’s in Shooting Phase]

.120 HQ Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord: Da Best Armor Dere Iz: 4++), Supa Cybork Body: 5+++

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warhpead w/ Da Jump, Fist of Gork (Buff Da Warlord)

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Grot Shields for Lootas, expect every single one of them to die in your opponents first turn)

.170 HEAVY 10 Lootas (Turn 1: 1 CP to Mob Up with other Lootas AFTER Finkin Kap deployed to get 6+ CP Farm’n)

.255 HEAVY 15 Lootas

[b]Evil Sunz Battalion[/b] (+5 CP) 907 points [+1” to Charges, +1” to Move (2” iff Speed Freeks)]

. 91 HQ Warboss on Warbike (Index) w/ Big Choppa = Headwoppa’s Killchoppa

.120 HQ Zhadsnark Da Ripper (Forge World) w/ Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

.215 TROOP 30 Shoota Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 1: Da Jump’d/3CP to Unlimited Greed Tide ‘recycle’ in Turn 2)

.223 TROOP 30 Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 2: Da Jump’d after Mob Up)

. 75 TROOP 10 Choppa Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, Tankbusta Bomb (Turn 2: 1 CP to Mob Up w/above)

.103 ELITE Painboy on Warbike (Index) w/’Urty Syringe, Power Klaw (1 CP to throw a Medi-Squig at Warlord)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (One to fly ahead with 3 Bikes & a Trike to keep them untargetable)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (Also a good source to buff Mob Up’d Choppa Boyz with Loot It! later in the game)

Blood Axe Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 320 points [Counts as in Cover > 18”, may Shoot OR Charge after Falling Back]

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts], Finkin Kap: I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (CP Farming on a 6+)

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Can’t be used for Grot Shields due to <CLAN> mismatch, therefore Objective Grabbers)

. 93 HEAVY Mek Gunz: 3x Smasha Kannons


The Evil Suns are there to charge, as supported by their Kulture.

The Bad Moons are there to shoot, as supported by their Kulture (I'll need to get a dice-rolling app to be kind to my opponents).

The Blood Axes are there to be sneaky gits. (Tactics ain’t a breath mint, y’all…)

Spoiler:
Everything should be deployed under a KFF's 5++ protection so no need to waste CP on Prepared Positions even if going second. So much better than trying to improve 6+ saves which can still be whittled away by AP.

For the Evil Sunz Battalion: 3 Bikes & a Trike (OK, so he’s a Bad Moon, but still…) should get off a first turn charge on something, Biker Painboy should keep 'em in combat a little longer. 30 Shoota Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP the next turn where the reappear 'Outflanking' and able to shoot away again. Turn 2 the 10 Choppa Boyz can Mob Up with 30 Choppa Boyz, and get Warpath'd and Da Jump'd into probable charge range of whatever the Bikes & Trike didn't kill and Heroically Intervene into during my opponent's turn.

As for the Bad Moonz, the Big Mek with the KFF is there to hide behind the Choppa Boyz mobs and be untargetable while KFF escorting the Evil Sunz boyz and both Weirdboyz. Good thing KFF's and Psyker shenanigans don't care about <CLAN> mismatches. The Lootas are to find anywhere (preferably in cover) with good lines of fire, Mob Up into a unit of 25 first thing and Dakka ad infinitius, uber alles, ad nauseam.

The Blood Axe Big Mek with the Finkin Kap will cover the Lootas under his KFF umbrella and keep the CP farm going as long as possible. He can also repair the Smasha Guns, and for his graduate studies project in sneaky-gitted-ness; have the Mob Up’d Lootas use Loot It! on a destroyed Smasha Gun, have the Lootas refund the CP for it on a 4+ AND farm the CP on a 6+. Remember the (preferably in cover) from just above? That way the Lootas can get a 4+ regular save to help them stick around even longer once all of those Gretchin have been used up by Grot Shields, so deploy those Smasha Guns nearby.

Extra sneaky git shenanigan-ness: The Deffkilla Wartike can move again at the end of the Shooting Phase (your own, not your opponents… don’t be THAT guy…) with the Stratagem: Drive By Krumpin', but is not allowed to charge. However, as a Character the Defkilla Wartrike may still Heroically Intervene its' way into combat. A loophole in the rules big enough to drive a Defkilla Wartike through, conveniently enough.

Your opponent have an annoying Character buffing nearby units? Consider sniping with Deff Koptas by either moving close enough so that character is the closest target, or by using Ramming Speed and putting some Mortal Wounds on ‘em.

I'm really looking forward to playing Orks.


What’s the point of the blood axes, why not make that battlion mixed so the different units can be used with different strats (such as grots >>> bad moons) otherwise looks pretty good overall, maybe make the killchoppa into the Killa Klaw?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 21:54:39


Post by: Dr.Duck


I get that bone breakers are good but better than Gorknauts in cqc?

How are people running them? I kinda want to run them independently without filling them with stuff but not sure if optimal.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 22:01:07


Post by: addnid


 Grimskul wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Meks are cheaper than Kommandos for Brigades and able to hide behind Mek Gunz due to CHARACTER. They can also fix up the Gunz.

Tellyporta has basically made Da Jump redundant. I'd rather a guaranteed placement on Turn 2 after clearing out bubble wrap than risking a whiff on Turn 1 and only being able to charge screens.


I feel like T1 Da Jumps are definitely not a strong tactic anymore due to how exposed they are when they arrive. However, I think it doesn't invalidate T2 usage of Da Jump to supplement the units that you decide to tellyport, for one it doesn't cost CP's, and you still need some form of backfield presence anyways for a lot of objectives (at least in Maelstrom), so keeping a mob of boyz behind to jump T2 isn't terrible.


Da jump is crucial to my freebooters army as my40 shoota boys need to be in range of squishy stuff for that sweet aura. For close combat boyz, only bad players will be bothered by da jump.
Da jump is also the only means of properly playing meganobz I thinks


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 22:05:29


Post by: Vineheart01


major difference between a gork and bonebreaka is the strength, which unless youre against T5+ doesnt mean much.
Bonebreaka being S9 means it wounds on 3s against anything that isnt T4, while the Gork can still wound on 2s being S16.

But, were talking WAAAAAY less attacks. Gork has what 5 attacks base? If it uses the S16 profile, 5 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s.
Meanwhile the Bonebreaka (if it charged) gets 7-12 attacks that are hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. Doesnt have the massive AP or Damage stat, but doesnt really need it either with that number of attacks. Oh and this is for about half the price.

Bonebreaka duo is definitely better at melee than a Gork, but its not a completely better trade. Gork still shoots pretty good.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 22:21:14


Post by: Dr.Duck


 Vineheart01 wrote:
major difference between a gork and bonebreaka is the strength, which unless youre against T5+ doesnt mean much.
Bonebreaka being S9 means it wounds on 3s against anything that isnt T4, while the Gork can still wound on 2s being S16.

But, were talking WAAAAAY less attacks. Gork has what 5 attacks base? If it uses the S16 profile, 5 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s.
Meanwhile the Bonebreaka (if it charged) gets 7-12 attacks that are hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. Doesnt have the massive AP or Damage stat, but doesnt really need it either with that number of attacks. Oh and this is for about half the price.

Bonebreaka duo is definitely better at melee than a Gork, but its not a completely better trade. Gork still shoots pretty good.


Ok I was thinking yall were saying per single model. Ya 2 breakers for a gork is fine. I was confused cuase gork with the other profile gets like 18 attcks at a similar weapon stat line difference being S8 vs S9.

Ya was feeling uncomfortable putting gorks in lists due to it being so expensive and sometimes jsut disappearing the turn it hits the board. Breakers feel a bit better.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 23:04:33


Post by: Grotrebel


Great Job Jidmah, I agree almost a 100% with your rainbow table.
Would only have changed the following:

Wyrdboy: Green - Still awesome, is popping a lot less then with the index boost, on the other side D6 smite got more rare as well. But the cheap costs combined with warphead and the psychic powers really makes up for it.

Painboy: Blue or even turquese - Adds a good potion of durability for your hordes of grotz and boys, and just one or two safed flash gitz, nobs or whatever get his points instantly back; and you can heal those popping warpheads, with strategem even twice or help some warboss or Ghazgkull if things get ugly. He was worth his points every single game for me, yellow is a bit harsh imo.


(Runtherd): Maybe yellow? There are a lot of grots around these days, so i can see his use somewhere. Have to admit i just let my grot die instead of getting him, but i am not spamming them as much as some other lists i`ve seen around.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting.


And, for the remaining stuff:

Buggies: Red - more expensive then koptas, which are also better. Only advantage over the kopta is the additional wound and the vehicle keyword, to trigger "loot it" or the mortal wound charge strategem.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 23:14:26


Post by: Pandabeer


 Dr.Duck wrote:
I get that bone breakers are good but better than Gorknauts in cqc?

How are people running them? I kinda want to run them independently without filling them with stuff but not sure if optimal.



He probably means point for point (you can get 2 Bonebreaka's for the price of a single Gorkanaut). Then again, the Gorkanaut as a bunch of guns strapped to it, can fall back + shoot & charge, has 3+ armor instead of 4+ and has +2W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
major difference between a gork and bonebreaka is the strength, which unless youre against T5+ doesnt mean much.
Bonebreaka being S9 means it wounds on 3s against anything that isnt T4, while the Gork can still wound on 2s being S16.

But, were talking WAAAAAY less attacks. Gork has what 5 attacks base? If it uses the S16 profile, 5 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s.
Meanwhile the Bonebreaka (if it charged) gets 7-12 attacks that are hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s. Doesnt have the massive AP or Damage stat, but doesnt really need it either with that number of attacks. Oh and this is for about half the price.

Bonebreaka duo is definitely better at melee than a Gork, but its not a completely better trade. Gork still shoots pretty good.


It's 6A.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 23:27:36


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You know, I feel really stupid, because I read the deff rolla rule as "add 3 hit rolls" instead of "add 3 to hit rolls"

So I was playing a Battlewagon as if it had 9 attacks at WS5+.
Whoops.
Hearing that it hits on a 2+ makes it feel a lot better.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 23:44:48


Post by: JimOnMars


I'm going to put mini-meks in my smasha/loota blob, next to the 3 mek guns. They are untargetable without first killing all of the lootas, which won't be reduced much until all of the grot screens go.

Since the meks can fix the mek guns, it provides almost Tau-like synergy: The grots shield the lootas, which hide the meks, which fix the smashas, which (on death) arm the lootas.

Annoying little blob, that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/21 23:51:47


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 JimOnMars wrote:
I'm going to put mini-meks in my smasha/loota blob, next to the 3 mek guns. They are untargetable without first killing all of the lootas, which won't be reduced much until all of the grot screens go.

Since the meks can fix the mek guns, it provides almost Tau-like synergy: The grots shield the lootas, which hide the meks, which fix the smashas, which (on death) arm the lootas.

Annoying little blob, that.


Cool. Now use that against the Tau, to reenact the War of Dakka.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 00:49:33


Post by: greggles


Bone breakers also hit on 2+ vs the 3+ of the gork. So even though the gork has more attacks (with the second profile), it's hitting less often, and at less str then the bone breakers.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting


I'd move mini mek's to green for death skulls. Give them a kustom mega blasta, and you've got a cheap character, that is objective secured, with triple re-rolls for dishing out the pain. I use mine to work with mek guns and also to move along the grots/boyz mobs on the table to provide ranged anti tank. (Pretty high hit % with death skulls and dakkadakka).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 00:56:32


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 greggles wrote:
Bone breakers also hit on 2+ vs the 3+ of the gork. So even though the gork has more attacks (with the second profile), it's hitting less often, and at less str then the bone breakers.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting


I'd move mini mek's to green for death skulls. Give them a kustom mega blasta, and you've got a cheap character, that is objective secured, with triple re-rolls for dishing out the pain. I use mine to work with mek guns and also to move along the grots/boyz mobs on the table to provide ranged anti tank. (Pretty high hit % with death skulls and dakkadakka).


I don't think you can give mini-mek those. They have kustom mega sluggas anyway.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 01:05:36


Post by: Grimskul


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 greggles wrote:
Bone breakers also hit on 2+ vs the 3+ of the gork. So even though the gork has more attacks (with the second profile), it's hitting less often, and at less str then the bone breakers.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting


I'd move mini mek's to green for death skulls. Give them a kustom mega blasta, and you've got a cheap character, that is objective secured, with triple re-rolls for dishing out the pain. I use mine to work with mek guns and also to move along the grots/boyz mobs on the table to provide ranged anti tank. (Pretty high hit % with death skulls and dakkadakka).


I don't think you can give mini-mek those. They have kustom mega sluggas anyway.


They have access to them through the index.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 01:14:54


Post by: greggles


Aye, it is an index option.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 01:31:03


Post by: gungo


I’m not a fan of lootas but so far thier results should at least move them up to good rankings.

Kommandos with index options should go up one. It’s basically the same as precodex except they got Tankbusta Bombs and +1 to wound and access to kulturs. Dunno maybe they are fine where they are since most stratagems dont synergize w them.

Looks good though.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 01:33:24


Post by: Madmacs


Is there a breakdown of the color codes for good/meh/bad? I may have missed it. Thanks in advance.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 02:09:47


Post by: whembly


 greggles wrote:
Bone breakers also hit on 2+ vs the 3+ of the gork. So even though the gork has more attacks (with the second profile), it's hitting less often, and at less str then the bone breakers.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting


I'd move mini mek's to green for death skulls. Give them a kustom mega blasta, and you've got a cheap character, that is objective secured, with triple re-rolls for dishing out the pain. I use mine to work with mek guns and also to move along the grots/boyz mobs on the table to provide ranged anti tank. (Pretty high hit % with death skulls and dakkadakka).

"triple re-rolls"???

What's the 3rd one? Further, I didn't think you could re-roll the re-roll... right? o.O


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 02:22:31


Post by: Madmacs


Think he means you can re roll their to hit roll, to wound roll, and their damage roll.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 02:23:24


Post by: Rismonite


gungo wrote:
I’m not a fan of lootas but so far thier results should at least move them up to good rankings.

Kommandos with index options should go up one. It’s basically the same as precodex except they got Tankbusta Bombs and +1 to wound and access to kulturs. Dunno maybe they are fine where they are since most stratagems dont synergize w them.

Looks good though.


Lootas certainly do need a nod as a right proppa place to dump CP. The Bad Moon/Deff Skull/More Dakka! stratagems turn their output up a lot. A unit that can be 48 inches away has an area of influence from a relatively safe spot. Grot Shields keep them safe in a way that was unheard of until the Codex dropped and the Mek Gun rules shenanigans may well show up time and again this edition until it gets errata.

It also makes me wonder, can you deepstrike Lootas and put More Dakka on them and hit on 5's and 6's no matter what? like turn three you are low on CP and need a last ditch effort to take on an enemy that is obscured from the Lootas's LOS so you Jump them to achieve LOS on said enemy unit then enhance them with Moar Dakka to get essentially full BS Lootas on the move?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 03:07:38


Post by: whembly


 Madmacs wrote:
Think he means you can re roll their to hit roll, to wound roll, and their damage roll.

Thanks!

Index Meks with KMB as dethskulls seems dope.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 03:23:56


Post by: Quackzo


RE: Da Jump vs Tellyporta
There's some key differences between the two abilities that make them both worth while.

Tellyporta is a bit more clear cut in that you guarantee a turn 2 deep strike with your one or two huge threats. With these threats you will tend to have a pre-game plan for their purpose.

To contrast, Da Jump provides you with a much more flexible manner of deep striking your troops. The fact that it works on T1 is a bonus. The main appeal is that each turn you get to relocate a unit of infantry to where they are needed. You can perform some power plays of T1 bomb of MANz, zapping grots to a neglected objective, or position tankbustas to take down your opponents armour.

I think we'll see Tellyporta used to drop bonebreaka, 'nauts, and MANz to punch holes through our enemies army. Da Jump will be used to either supplement this or provide more strategic relocation of units to gain better control of the board.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 04:21:01


Post by: buddha


New to orks. Kommandos seem great but I'm curious if you need a Nob and if so what kit to give them?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 04:37:44


Post by: gungo


 buddha wrote:
New to orks. Kommandos seem great but I'm curious if you need a Nob and if so what kit to give them?

What’s your roll for them in your list?
Are they small MSU for ruin campers
Large assault blob
Extra hidden power klaws

Then do you play in the US, England or Europe that allows index or the few areas that don’t allow index units? Which will limit your options.
If you are in an area where index units are not a problem take the free nob upgrade.
Personally I take mine in 2x 5 man units with a nob with big choppa and 2 free burnas kommandos and a tank bomb kommando, and a regular commando. But there is something to be said about using them in larger units so they can survive overwatch! However I use them to clear ruins as that where they excel. They have better cover saves in terrain and better wound rolls in terrain. They are also good at taking out artillery. Keeping the unit small helps w thier deepstrike placement too. Set up like this they almost always make thier points back. Forgeworld sells an upgrade sprue that you can make a big choppa kommando with.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 05:14:14


Post by: Quackzo


the_scotsman wrote:

Supa Cybork Body: Situational

That situation is: I have a Deffkilla Wartrike and I want him to be more durable. The Supa-Cybork is worth an extra CP to make your Deffkilla somewhat harder to (deff) kill. If you don’t have your heart set on a second relic then you won’t be sad if you throw this on your wartrike. Combines extra nicely with the Bad Moonz warlord trait giving you a surprisingly tanky trike!


I've been experimenting with this relic a fair bit. It also performs great on a Warphead when you don't have access to a Painboy. It's a great way to mitigate the inevitable perils and allows it to live for an extra turn or two before it explodes. Without the Supa Cybork body you would expect the Warphead to explode after 2 perils, with it you would expect 3 perils to kill it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 05:39:14


Post by: hollow one


Love the first post so far Jid. Without being nitty gritty about each unit ranking, I must insist that Boyz are Green.

I don't care if you think they've gotten worse (they haven't). They are going to be a staple in EVERY competitive list, and already showed up as a minimum of 90 in the first two successful lists this month. Gretchin are not better than boyz IMO, they are useful for a specific purpose (CP and grot shields) and otherwise not a good unit. This is deceptive for new/casual players as they will fill their troops with gretchin and wonder why they are losing every game since they have no boyz.

Gretchin serve a valuable purpose, but Boyz are the meat and bones of an army. This makes Boyz categorically better than Gretchin IMO. Everyone is just sick of running boyz, but that does not prevent them from being one of our best units.

Additionally, their versatility is outstanding: double shooting bad moon shootas, double attacking evil sun choppas, the best deep strike in the game (da jump and 8 inch rerollable), mob up to 40, green tide of traitors, obsec, increased durability with some klans, infinite attacks. All for a mere 7 ppm. Most armies would kill for access to boys and their stratagems.

They are green. Both in skin, and tier.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 06:22:38


Post by: Jidmah


Thanks for all the praise, but most of the ranking I have taken from the_scotsman's analysis, except for those where I heavily disagreed or felt like it didn't reflect what other people were reporting for those units.

I will improve it with the critiques in here so far, just making the stupid rainbow structure and shortening all the texts took me hours.

What I want to have in the first post is an analysis for each klan, taking into account the klan's relic, warlord trait and stratagem, not just the kulture. Below that should be the units which benefit most from running that klan (TOP 5 or something) and klan-specific unit constallations like the redder armour mek or the deffskulls rokkit trukk boyz.
I feel this has more value to players new to orks than "take Evil Sund or Deff Skulls, everything else sucks".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 06:31:33


Post by: hollow one


Yeah I'm with you. It might be worth discussing the stratagems in a meaningful way because they are easily the best thing in the book and typically encourage build-arounds.

I'm happy to give you a ranking of them if you'd like. And what units you should be excited when considering the stratagem.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 07:40:50


Post by: addnid


Both our troops are great, for different reasons. Lootas without grots are imho very bad for example


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 07:51:25


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.

I agree with this analysis also.

The squigbuggy is not on the same level as the Snazzwagon.

Also I want to petition that the Stompa is put into a category all on its own. That thing does not deserve to be in the red category and I'd hate to think a casual player read this and purchased one not realising how truly useless they are.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:18:54


Post by: hollow one


addnid wrote:
Both our troops are great, for different reasons. Lootas without grots are imho very bad for example
I agree with you mate, which is why Boyz have no business being mid-tier. Gretchin are excellent too, but boyz are amazing. Every single outstanding stratagem we have, makes Boyz better.

Speaking of:

Spoiler:

I’ll spend some time explaining the Tier 1 and 2 goodness, and then just rank the remainder.

Within each Tier, stratagems are ordered from best to worst.

Tier 1: All-star. Build your army around this ability, use every turn if possible.
Mob Up: Our best stratagem. It's cheap, it enhances the ability of other stratagems/spells by allowing bigger units to be targeted, it reduces your kill points, and you can do some CRAZY things with it (e.g. mob up then charge from deepstrike). Boyz, Stormboyz, and Lootaz benefit most from this stratagem, but basically any unit you're going to Da Jump, Warpath, or use any stratagem on, use Mob Up first.
Showin' Off: Badmoons only. Double of output of a unit? Yeah sign me up. No brainer if you're shooting with 25 Lootas or 40 Shoota Boyz (that you Mob'd up).
Grot Shields: Want to protect your army when going second? Gretchin. Want to keep that Loota squad alive all game? Gretchin. Need that Tankbusta squad to survive before you Da Jump them? Gretchin. Need to fill some slots for ablative wounds in your Battlewagon with 10 Nobz in it? Gretchin. Need some more CP to use this ability more? Gretchin.
Get Stuck in, Ladz!: Boyz go waaaaaay up in price here, this helps you take hostages (tripoint) while also makes your Warboss on foot (or Ghazghkull) a dominant force to be reckoned with.
Unstoppable Green Tide: Boyz once again, this stratagem was so good the chaos version got nerfed and all they were using it on were useless cultists. This stratagem compels you to bring at least 1x30man squad of Boyz in every list. Using it to teleport your boys to join a Da Jump turn 1 might just be worth the 3CP alone in certain match-ups.
More Dakka: Anything that can receive Showin’ Off loves this stratagem. Heavy weapons, or when you are advancing with assault weapons will all shoot at max strength here. So any ork shooty unit, but not the ones that hit on 4+. So after you Da Jump your Lootas they can fire at max strength, or when you shoot your Tankbustas at a -3 flyer, you always hit on 5’s anyway.
Wreckers: Deathskulls only. Inferior to Showin’ Off mathematically (especially with More Dakka) and has poor target selection but this stratagem has the versatility to be used on melee units. So if you're building around this stratagem, you’ll be wanting a wealth of hits vs high armour. Boyz that are fighting twice vs a knight will enjoy this stratagem, also consider your largest blob of MANz or Nobz.

Tier 2: Outstanding. Use at least once per game, very efficient ability. Save your CP for these.
Tellyporta: We are the best deep-strikers in the game, but only if you’re Evil Sunz. You can’t just use this on everything and hope it works. I’d recommend not building around this stratagem, but instead using it for versatility and protection. 8” charges can still fail. There is an uncountable amount of exciting things you can do with this and it totally opens up our Codex, but MANz, Deff Dreads (to be offensive and quick) and Boyz (to protect them and have good board presence) benefit from it the most in my opinion.
Ramming Speed: Smite on a 2+ is reliable, great for charging characters even if you don’t need the 3d6 range. Your Deffkilla Wartrike, Bonebreaka, and Deffkoptas want to use this every turn, but anything you deep strike is also excited, Gorkanauts and Deff Dreads come to mind.
Orks is Never Beaten: Warboss on a Bike that you suicided into that knight is more than happy to die thanks to this. Any special character that is good is just so much better thanks to this: Zhadsnark, Ghazghkull, or even Snikrot.
Loot It!: With the FAQ, I think Nobz in Battlewagons want this ability the most, you’re talking space marine armour here. But anything in a Trukk is excited too. This ability is so efficient you might even consider bringing a Mek Gun or two just to die and beef up your backfield.
Skarboyz: Obviously this ability is good, but in some games it wont matter (either the Boyz will die too fast, delete what they charge anyway, or the str 5 might not even change the dice). Consider your opponent. Unfortunately you must be Goffs to use this.

Tier 3: Good. Mostly situational, but when you have the opportunity, you’re happy to spend the CP.
Drive-By Krumpin (on a Deffkilla Wartike)
Warphead
Extra Gubbinz (for 1 CP)
Dead Sneaky (on 20 Boyz)
Extra Stikkbombs (on Tankbustas)
Billowing Exhaust Cloud (on a Deffkilla Wartrike)
Medi-Squig (healing a Weirdboy)
Long, Uncontrollable Bursts (on a Dakkajet)

Teir 4: Borderline. Should be cheaper, rarely good, try to avoid.
Monster Hunters (unless you are bringing a brigade of Snakebites)
Snagga Grapple
Force-Field Projekta
(why did you deploy wrong?)
Extra Gubbinz (for 3 CP)
Boarding Action
‘Ard Boys

Tier 5: Trap.
Kill-Kroozer Broadside (don’t do it….)



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:28:31


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:31:43


Post by: PiñaColada


 hollow one wrote:
addnid wrote:
Both our troops are great, for different reasons. Lootas without grots are imho very bad for example
I agree with you mate, which is why Boyz have no business being mid-tier. Gretchin are excellent too, but boyz are amazing. Every single outstanding stratagem we have, makes Boyz better.

Speaking of:

Spoiler:

I’ll spend some time explaining the Tier 1 and 2 goodness, and then just rank the remainder.

Within each Tier, stratagems are ordered from best to worst.

Tier 1: All-star. Build your army around this ability, use every turn if possible.
Mob Up: Our best stratagem. It's cheap, it enhances the ability of other stratagems/spells by allowing bigger units to be targeted, it reduces your kill points, and you can do some CRAZY things with it (e.g. mob up then charge from deepstrike). Boyz, Stormboyz, and Lootaz benefit most from this stratagem, but basically any unit you're going to Da Jump, Warpath, or use any stratagem on, use Mob Up first.
Showin' Off: Badmoons only. Double of output of a unit? Yeah sign me up. No brainer if you're shooting with 25 Lootas or 40 Shoota Boyz (that you Mob'd up).
Grot Shields: Want to protect your army when going second? Gretchin. Want to keep that Loota squad alive all game? Gretchin. Need that Tankbusta squad to survive before you Da Jump them? Gretchin. Need to fill some slots for ablative wounds in your Battlewagon with 10 Nobz in it? Gretchin. Need some more CP to use this ability more? Gretchin.
Get Stuck in, Ladz!: Boyz go waaaaaay up in price here, this helps you take hostages (tripoint) while also makes your Warboss on foot (or Ghazghkull) a dominant force to be reckoned with.
Unstoppable Green Tide: Boyz once again, this stratagem was so good the chaos version got nerfed and all they were using it on were useless cultists. This stratagem compels you to bring at least 1x30man squad of Boyz in every list. Using it to teleport your boys to join a Da Jump turn 1 might just be worth the 3CP alone in certain match-ups.
More Dakka: Anything that can receive Showin’ Off loves this stratagem. Heavy weapons, or when you are advancing with assault weapons will all shoot at max strength here. So any ork shooty unit, but not the ones that hit on 4+. So after you Da Jump your Lootas they can fire at max strength, or when you shoot your Tankbustas at a -3 flyer, you always hit on 5’s anyway.
Wreckers: Deathskulls only. Inferior to Showin’ Off mathematically (especially with More Dakka) and has poor target selection but this stratagem has the versatility to be used on melee units. So if you're building around this stratagem, you’ll be wanting a wealth of hits vs high armour. Boyz that are fighting twice vs a knight will enjoy this stratagem, also consider your largest blob of MANz or Nobz.

Tier 2: Outstanding. Use at least once per game, very efficient ability. Save your CP for these.
Tellyporta: We are the best deep-strikers in the game, but only if you’re Evil Sunz. You can’t just use this on everything and hope it works. I’d recommend not building around this stratagem, but instead using it for versatility and protection. 8” charges can still fail. There is an uncountable amount of exciting things you can do with this and it totally opens up our Codex, but MANz, Deff Dreads (to be offensive and quick) and Boyz (to protect them and have good board presence) benefit from it the most in my opinion.
Ramming Speed: Smite on a 2+ is reliable, great for charging characters even if you don’t need the 3d6 range. Your Deffkilla Wartrike, Bonebreaka, and Deffkoptas want to use this every turn, but anything you deep strike is also excited, Gorkanauts and Deff Dreads come to mind.
Orks is Never Beaten: Warboss on a Bike that you suicided into that knight is more than happy to die thanks to this. Any special character that is good is just so much better thanks to this: Zhadsnark, Ghazghkull, or even Snikrot.
Loot It!: With the FAQ, I think Nobz in Battlewagons want this ability the most, you’re talking space marine armour here. But anything in a Trukk is excited too. This ability is so efficient you might even consider bringing a Mek Gun or two just to die and beef up your backfield.
Skarboyz: Obviously this ability is good, but in some games it wont matter (either the Boyz will die too fast, delete what they charge anyway, or the str 5 might not even change the dice). Consider your opponent. Unfortunately you must be Goffs to use this.

Tier 3: Good. Mostly situational, but when you have the opportunity, you’re happy to spend the CP.
Drive-By Krumpin (on a Deffkilla Wartike)
Warphead
Extra Gubbinz (for 1 CP)
Dead Sneaky (on 20 Boyz)
Extra Stikkbombs (on Tankbustas)
Billowing Exhaust Cloud (on a Deffkilla Wartrike)
Medi-Squig (healing a Weirdboy)
Long, Uncontrollable Bursts (on a Dakkajet)

Teir 4: Borderline. Should be cheaper, rarely good, try to avoid.
Monster Hunters (unless you are bringing a brigade of Snakebites)
Snagga Grapple
Force-Field Projekta
(why did you deploy wrong?)
Extra Gubbinz (for 3 CP)
Boarding Action
‘Ard Boys

Tier 5: Trap.
Kill-Kroozer Broadside (don’t do it….)



Some good write ups! I'd say that drive by krumpin' could be really good on deffkoptas situationally also. If you moved them aggressively to snipe a character but it's way too dangerous to actually stay there, spending 1CP to fly away 23" could be a life saver.
I think you can move boarding action to situational also. If you have a battlewagon filled with MANZ and there's a vehicle with a few wounds left it might be worth it to just spend the CP to kill the damn thing. It also works in either your or your opponents combat phase I think.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:34:09


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 hollow one wrote:
addnid wrote:
Both our troops are great, for different reasons. Lootas without grots are imho very bad for example
I agree with you mate, which is why Boyz have no business being mid-tier. Gretchin are excellent too, but boyz are amazing. Every single outstanding stratagem we have, makes Boyz better.

Speaking of:

Spoiler:

I’ll spend some time explaining the Tier 1 and 2 goodness, and then just rank the remainder.

Within each Tier, stratagems are ordered from best to worst.

Tier 1: All-star. Build your army around this ability, use every turn if possible.
Mob Up: Our best stratagem. It's cheap, it enhances the ability of other stratagems/spells by allowing bigger units to be targeted, it reduces your kill points, and you can do some CRAZY things with it (e.g. mob up then charge from deepstrike). Boyz, Stormboyz, and Lootaz benefit most from this stratagem, but basically any unit you're going to Da Jump, Warpath, or use any stratagem on, use Mob Up first.
Showin' Off: Badmoons only. Double of output of a unit? Yeah sign me up. No brainer if you're shooting with 25 Lootas or 40 Shoota Boyz (that you Mob'd up).
Grot Shields: Want to protect your army when going second? Gretchin. Want to keep that Loota squad alive all game? Gretchin. Need that Tankbusta squad to survive before you Da Jump them? Gretchin. Need to fill some slots for ablative wounds in your Battlewagon with 10 Nobz in it? Gretchin. Need some more CP to use this ability more? Gretchin.
Get Stuck in, Ladz!: Boyz go waaaaaay up in price here, this helps you take hostages (tripoint) while also makes your Warboss on foot (or Ghazghkull) a dominant force to be reckoned with.
Unstoppable Green Tide: Boyz once again, this stratagem was so good the chaos version got nerfed and all they were using it on were useless cultists. This stratagem compels you to bring at least 1x30man squad of Boyz in every list. Using it to teleport your boys to join a Da Jump turn 1 might just be worth the 3CP alone in certain match-ups.
More Dakka: Anything that can receive Showin’ Off loves this stratagem. Heavy weapons, or when you are advancing with assault weapons will all shoot at max strength here. So any ork shooty unit, but not the ones that hit on 4+. So after you Da Jump your Lootas they can fire at max strength, or when you shoot your Tankbustas at a -3 flyer, you always hit on 5’s anyway.
Wreckers: Deathskulls only. Inferior to Showin’ Off mathematically (especially with More Dakka) and has poor target selection but this stratagem has the versatility to be used on melee units. So if you're building around this stratagem, you’ll be wanting a wealth of hits vs high armour. Boyz that are fighting twice vs a knight will enjoy this stratagem, also consider your largest blob of MANz or Nobz.

Tier 2: Outstanding. Use at least once per game, very efficient ability. Save your CP for these.
Tellyporta: We are the best deep-strikers in the game, but only if you’re Evil Sunz. You can’t just use this on everything and hope it works. I’d recommend not building around this stratagem, but instead using it for versatility and protection. 8” charges can still fail. There is an uncountable amount of exciting things you can do with this and it totally opens up our Codex, but MANz, Deff Dreads (to be offensive and quick) and Boyz (to protect them and have good board presence) benefit from it the most in my opinion.
Ramming Speed: Smite on a 2+ is reliable, great for charging characters even if you don’t need the 3d6 range. Your Deffkilla Wartrike, Bonebreaka, and Deffkoptas want to use this every turn, but anything you deep strike is also excited, Gorkanauts and Deff Dreads come to mind.
Orks is Never Beaten: Warboss on a Bike that you suicided into that knight is more than happy to die thanks to this. Any special character that is good is just so much better thanks to this: Zhadsnark, Ghazghkull, or even Snikrot.
Loot It!: With the FAQ, I think Nobz in Battlewagons want this ability the most, you’re talking space marine armour here. But anything in a Trukk is excited too. This ability is so efficient you might even consider bringing a Mek Gun or two just to die and beef up your backfield.
Skarboyz: Obviously this ability is good, but in some games it wont matter (either the Boyz will die too fast, delete what they charge anyway, or the str 5 might not even change the dice). Consider your opponent. Unfortunately you must be Goffs to use this.

Tier 3: Good. Mostly situational, but when you have the opportunity, you’re happy to spend the CP.
Drive-By Krumpin (on a Deffkilla Wartike)
Warphead
Extra Gubbinz (for 1 CP)
Dead Sneaky (on 20 Boyz)
Extra Stikkbombs (on Tankbustas)
Billowing Exhaust Cloud (on a Deffkilla Wartrike)
Medi-Squig (healing a Weirdboy)
Long, Uncontrollable Bursts (on a Dakkajet)

Teir 4: Borderline. Should be cheaper, rarely good, try to avoid.
Monster Hunters (unless you are bringing a brigade of Snakebites)
Snagga Grapple
Force-Field Projekta
(why did you deploy wrong?)
Extra Gubbinz (for 3 CP)
Boarding Action
‘Ard Boys

Tier 5: Trap.
Kill-Kroozer Broadside (don’t do it….)


Tellyporta has to be green surely? Its out best strat imo.

Get stuck in isn't as good as green IMO either. 3 CP to fight again after you've taken a hit first? Not convinced its worth it at the end of the phase. If you need something dead enough to use this strat, your units will take a beat down from whatever they're fighting and thus lose effectiveness.

I'd put Ramming Speed higher to compliment Tellyporta.

Warphead, Extra Stikkbombs and Billowing Exhaust cloud are all cyan for me. Warphead is possibly green in certain lists where they have many HQs.

Nice summary review though!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:34:24


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Literally all the buggies are triple digits. The problem is that you can take a KBB and spend 40 points on something else if you want more of a TAC role. So sure, the price is the problem but just random amount of decent shots aren't attractive to most people. The upside is placing down that smite but I also think that's why GW priced it so high, so people wouldn't get a bunch of squigbuggies and create smite walls


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:37:56


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I think we are being too harsh to 'ard boyz.
Yes, its 2 CP, but if you use it on a max squad of boyz then you have 30 5+ saves.
If you use loot it that becomes 30 4+ saves. All for 210 points.

Now, if you use unstoppable green tide, unless the effects don't persist, that becomes 30 4+ saves that can come from any table edge and have a good chance of charging.

Will it be 6CP? Yes, but CP is meant to be used, and if it wins the game, does it really matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Literally all the buggies are triple digits. The problem is that you can take a KBB and spend 40 points on something else if you want more of a TAC role. So sure, the price is the problem but just random amount of decent shots aren't attractive to most people. The upside is placing down that smite but I also think that's why GW priced it so high, so people wouldn't get a bunch of squigbuggies and create smite walls


Are they in triple digits? I don't have the book with me right now, but I could have sworn most of the buggies are just under 100.
Yes, KBB is good, but that depends on Ebay or getting the speed freaks box. Spending 100 just to get one model doesn't seem practical.

You can buy a single smasha gun for 40 points, which can take care of the targets KBB are inefficient against. You get D3 shots with that, compared to the amount of shots the buggy gets. Both are randomized.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:51:24


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


Interesting thoughts!

Love to see where the squiggoths rank now in peoples opinion, they have dakka rules, and most klan rules now.

Also pressuming you take a warboss on warbike with relic klaw, and an augmenting weirdboy, what's the 2nd best option? warboss on warbike with relic big-choppa, or the wartrike?

Cheers!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:51:36


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think we are being too harsh to 'ard boyz. [....]

Are they in triple digits? I don't have the book with me right now, but I could have sworn most of the buggies are just under 100.
Yes, KBB is good, but that depends on Ebay or getting the speed freaks box. Spending 100 just to get one model doesn't seem practical.

You can buy a single smasha gun for 40 points, which can take care of the targets KBB are inefficient against. You get D3 shots with that, compared to the amount of shots the buggy gets. Both are randomized.

The 'ard boyz strat should at the very least cost 1CP if the boyz unit is 20 or less strong. It's not terrible but spending 2CP in a CP-hungry army seems inadvisable..
Yes, all the buggies are 100 and up, wargear included.
KBB & Boomdakka 100, Megatrakk 110, Shokkjump & Deffkilla 120, Squigbuggy 140


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 08:54:29


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


PiñaColada wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think we are being too harsh to 'ard boyz. [....]

Are they in triple digits? I don't have the book with me right now, but I could have sworn most of the buggies are just under 100.
Yes, KBB is good, but that depends on Ebay or getting the speed freaks box. Spending 100 just to get one model doesn't seem practical.

You can buy a single smasha gun for 40 points, which can take care of the targets KBB are inefficient against. You get D3 shots with that, compared to the amount of shots the buggy gets. Both are randomized.

The 'ard boyz strat should at the very least cost 1CP if the boyz unit is 20 or less strong. It's not terrible but spending 2CP in a CP-hungry army seems inadvisable..
Yes, all the buggies are 100 and up, wargear included.
KBB & Boomdakka 100, Megatrakk 110, Shokkjump & Deffkilla 120, Squigbuggy 140


Huh, I must have missed wargear prices then.
Yeah, the 'ard boyz strat should have variable price, as you aren't going to spend 2CP to armor 10 boyz. However, Orks do have the ability to build CP batteries.
A couple of weirdboys and 3 units of 10 grots is what, less than a 200 points? That's +5 CP right there.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 09:06:22


Post by: pismakron


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:

Huh, I must have missed wargear prices then.
Yeah, the 'ard boyz strat should have variable price, as you aren't going to spend 2CP to armor 10 boyz. However, Orks do have the ability to build CP batteries.
A couple of weirdboys and 3 units of 10 grots is what, less than a 200 points? That's +5 CP right there.




It is 254 points. But that is still pretty good, and neither weirdboyz nor grots are useless.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 09:48:35


Post by: PiñaColada


2 weirdboys and 3x10 grots is 214 points for a base battalion. Also, Pismakron, your quote is screwed up since I didn't say that..

Edit: It's legal to give the tankbusta bomb to your kommando nob,right? Because strictly speaking it should be a specific model in every unit armed with it, not just whoever suits you best at that moment, correct?
Edit 2: Actually after rereading it, I guess the kommando nob can't take that tankbusta bomb. Shame, since I had an old tankbusta nob modeled like that..


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 10:31:58


Post by: tneva82


Yes bomb is on specific model. Which is why so far I have never used the bomb. I don't have any bomb models so no easy way to point out where the bomb is and I sure as hell can't just declare mid game which model it is.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 10:51:30


Post by: Marklarr


 Frowbakk wrote:
Ork Triple Battalion 1999 points, Battle Forged: + 3 CP (-3 CP for Extra Gubbinz) 13 CP left after list construction.
Spoiler:


Bad Moon Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 772 points [Re-roll 1’s in Shooting Phase]

.120 HQ Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord: Da Best Armor Dere Iz: 4++), Supa Cybork Body: 5+++

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warhpead w/ Da Jump, Fist of Gork (Buff Da Warlord)

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Grot Shields for Lootas, expect every single one of them to die in your opponents first turn)

.170 HEAVY 10 Lootas (Turn 1: 1 CP to Mob Up with other Lootas AFTER Finkin Kap deployed to get 6+ CP Farm’n)

.255 HEAVY 15 Lootas

[b]Evil Sunz Battalion[/b] (+5 CP) 907 points [+1” to Charges, +1” to Move (2” iff Speed Freeks)]

. 91 HQ Warboss on Warbike (Index) w/ Big Choppa = Headwoppa’s Killchoppa

.120 HQ Zhadsnark Da Ripper (Forge World) w/ Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

.215 TROOP 30 Shoota Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 1: Da Jump’d/3CP to Unlimited Greed Tide ‘recycle’ in Turn 2)

.223 TROOP 30 Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 2: Da Jump’d after Mob Up)

. 75 TROOP 10 Choppa Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, Tankbusta Bomb (Turn 2: 1 CP to Mob Up w/above)

.103 ELITE Painboy on Warbike (Index) w/’Urty Syringe, Power Klaw (1 CP to throw a Medi-Squig at Warlord)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (One to fly ahead with 3 Bikes & a Trike to keep them untargetable)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (Also a good source to buff Mob Up’d Choppa Boyz with Loot It! later in the game)

Blood Axe Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 320 points [Counts as in Cover > 18”, may Shoot OR Charge after Falling Back]

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts], Finkin Kap: I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (CP Farming on a 6+)

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Can’t be used for Grot Shields due to <CLAN> mismatch, therefore Objective Grabbers)

. 93 HEAVY Mek Gunz: 3x Smasha Kannons


The Evil Suns are there to charge, as supported by their Kulture.

The Bad Moons are there to shoot, as supported by their Kulture (I'll need to get a dice-rolling app to be kind to my opponents).

The Blood Axes are there to be sneaky gits. (Tactics ain’t a breath mint, y’all…)

Spoiler:
Everything should be deployed under a KFF's 5++ protection so no need to waste CP on Prepared Positions even if going second. So much better than trying to improve 6+ saves which can still be whittled away by AP.

For the Evil Sunz Battalion: 3 Bikes & a Trike (OK, so he’s a Bad Moon, but still…) should get off a first turn charge on something, Biker Painboy should keep 'em in combat a little longer. 30 Shoota Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP the next turn where the reappear 'Outflanking' and able to shoot away again. Turn 2 the 10 Choppa Boyz can Mob Up with 30 Choppa Boyz, and get Warpath'd and Da Jump'd into probable charge range of whatever the Bikes & Trike didn't kill and Heroically Intervene into during my opponent's turn.

As for the Bad Moonz, the Big Mek with the KFF is there to hide behind the Choppa Boyz mobs and be untargetable while KFF escorting the Evil Sunz boyz and both Weirdboyz. Good thing KFF's and Psyker shenanigans don't care about <CLAN> mismatches. The Lootas are to find anywhere (preferably in cover) with good lines of fire, Mob Up into a unit of 25 first thing and Dakka ad infinitius, uber alles, ad nauseam.

The Blood Axe Big Mek with the Finkin Kap will cover the Lootas under his KFF umbrella and keep the CP farm going as long as possible. He can also repair the Smasha Guns, and for his graduate studies project in sneaky-gitted-ness; have the Mob Up’d Lootas use Loot It! on a destroyed Smasha Gun, have the Lootas refund the CP for it on a 4+ AND farm the CP on a 6+. Remember the (preferably in cover) from just above? That way the Lootas can get a 4+ regular save to help them stick around even longer once all of those Gretchin have been used up by Grot Shields, so deploy those Smasha Guns nearby.

Extra sneaky git shenanigan-ness: The Deffkilla Wartike can move again at the end of the Shooting Phase (your own, not your opponents… don’t be THAT guy…) with the Stratagem: Drive By Krumpin', but is not allowed to charge. However, as a Character the Defkilla Wartrike may still Heroically Intervene its' way into combat. A loophole in the rules big enough to drive a Defkilla Wartike through, conveniently enough.

Your opponent have an annoying Character buffing nearby units? Consider sniping with Deff Koptas by either moving close enough so that character is the closest target, or by using Ramming Speed and putting some Mortal Wounds on ‘em.

I'm really looking forward to playing Orks.


Im not too sure that the drive by Krumpin strat is worded incorrectly and should be taken as it’s worded. The only oversight probably being, in my opinion, the unit can not charge or heroically intervene this turn. It would just seem strange to me if it was any other way, considering how specific all the other stratagems are with when and how you can use them.......or I’m wrong and it’s a complete oversight by GW


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 11:02:13


Post by: PiñaColada


I mean, you can't perform a heroic intervention in your own turn can you? So I fail to see how this is even a combo. If you could, then why would you ever charge and be subject to overwatch with your characters?

The rulebook states: "After a player has moved all their charging models, the other players can attempt to perform Heroic Interventions in an order decided by the player whose turn it is [...]"
Emphasis mine, page 270


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 11:21:13


Post by: tneva82


PiñaColada wrote:
I mean, you can't perform a heroic intervention in your own turn can you? So I fail to see how this is even a combo. If you could, then why would you ever charge and be subject to overwatch with your characters?

The rulebook states: "After a player has moved all their charging models, the other players can attempt to perform Heroic Interventions in an order decided by the player whose turn it is [...]"
Emphasis mine, page 270


Italics for interesting part I have never noticed and whom nobody I have played with using. Everybody just plays so that character is moved by owner in their owner. And certainly faster way to play. With 8th ed already being slow as hell edition good thing.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 11:52:16


Post by: Jidmah


 Grotrebel wrote:
Great Job Jidmah, I agree almost a 100% with your rainbow table.
Would only have changed the following:

Wyrdboy: Green - Still awesome, is popping a lot less then with the index boost, on the other side D6 smite got more rare as well. But the cheap costs combined with warphead and the psychic powers really makes up for it.

Agree, he is definitely above the rest of the cyan category. Changed in OP.

Painboy: Blue or even turquese - Adds a good potion of durability for your hordes of grotz and boys, and just one or two safed flash gitz, nobs or whatever get his points instantly back; and you can heal those popping warpheads, with strategem even twice or help some warboss or Ghazgkull if things get ugly. He was worth his points every single game for me, yellow is a bit harsh imo.

The size of the aura is low, the 6+ roll is very unreliable and saving one in every six wounds dealt to orks struggle to ever make him worth his points. Yellow is the category for things that do what they are supposed to do, but aren't great choices in general.

(Runtherd): Maybe yellow? There are a lot of grots around these days, so i can see his use somewhere. Have to admit i just let my grot die instead of getting him, but i am not spamming them as much as some other lists i`ve seen around.

A warboss can do everything a runtherd can do and more. I can't think of a scenario where buying more gretchin isn't superior to getting a runtherd.

(Mini Mek) Yellow as well? Cheap slot filler for the brigade or relict bearer (evil sunz), otherwise i use him for camping and backyard screening, if my model count goes low. Maybe not enough for yellow, but I felt is was worth noting.

Cheap elite choice for brigades is something I have not thought of. Moving him to yellow.


And, for the remaining stuff:

Buggies: Red - more expensive then koptas, which are also better. Only advantage over the kopta is the additional wound and the vehicle keyword, to trigger "loot it" or the mortal wound charge strategem.

Koptas are vehicles as well. So zero advantage. Added them to red.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Madmacs wrote:
Is there a breakdown of the color codes for good/meh/bad? I may have missed it. Thanks in advance.

Green is best, red is worst. This is something that has been around dakka since some time in 5th. Personally not a huge fan of it, but in the past multiple people requested these when I started the previous tatics threads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.

I agree with this analysis also.

The squigbuggy is not on the same level as the Snazzwagon.

Also I want to petition that the Stompa is put into a category all on its own. That thing does not deserve to be in the red category and I'd hate to think a casual player read this and purchased one not realising how truly useless they are.


We did the math in a previous thread and its shooting is slightly below that of the squig buggy and lacking the mine. It's also strictly worse than the KBB, so red is the right category in my book - from a strictly competitive point of view, you should not be getting snazzwagons.

Even if it's not as bad as the squig buggy, it's definitely not in the same league as Warbosses, Painboyz or Killa Kanz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hollow one wrote:
Love the first post so far Jid. Without being nitty gritty about each unit ranking, I must insist that Boyz are Green.

I don't care if you think they've gotten worse (they haven't). They are going to be a staple in EVERY competitive list, and already showed up as a minimum of 90 in the first two successful lists this month. Gretchin are not better than boyz IMO, they are useful for a specific purpose (CP and grot shields) and otherwise not a good unit. This is deceptive for new/casual players as they will fill their troops with gretchin and wonder why they are losing every game since they have no boyz.

Gretchin serve a valuable purpose, but Boyz are the meat and bones of an army. This makes Boyz categorically better than Gretchin IMO. Everyone is just sick of running boyz, but that does not prevent them from being one of our best units.

Additionally, their versatility is outstanding: double shooting bad moon shootas, double attacking evil sun choppas, the best deep strike in the game (da jump and 8 inch rerollable), mob up to 40, green tide of traitors, obsec, increased durability with some klans, infinite attacks. All for a mere 7 ppm. Most armies would kill for access to boys and their stratagems.

They are green. Both in skin, and tier.

Compelling argument. Boyz moved to green.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:07:58


Post by: TedNugent


Jidmah,

One thing I think you're missing with the standard warboss, is that the fight twice strategem can only be used on infantry units.

A warboss with da Killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, has 5 attacks, with rerollable hits, rerollable wounds, and 4 damage per attack. You can then fight twice, and if the warboss dies, you can fight a third time. This enables him to reliably oneshot superheavies.

While the warbiker boss is much faster, more flexible, and more frightening for general use, that fight twice strat applies only to infantry models. And on the killiest model on the board against titans, I consider that of great significance.

Also, please consider that a footboss gets objective secured in a deathskull list, and can also be included in a transport using the tellyporting strategem to essentially deepstrike him in with the unit of your choice (BW full of meganobs, with waaagh, anyone?).

That said, they really do need to make a basic 5++ invulnerable save available for bosses again...

Also, please consider that meganobz and nobs, tankbustas, Lootas are objective secured in a deathskulls detachment. This makes true boys free lists quite possible.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:18:13


Post by: tneva82


 TedNugent wrote:
Jidmah,

One thing I think you're missing with the standard warboss, is that the fight twice strategem can only be used on infantry units.

A warboss with da Killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, has 5 attacks, with rerollable hits, rerollable wounds, and 4 damage per attack. You can then fight twice, and if the warboss dies, you can fight a third time. This enables him to reliably oneshot superheavies.


Fight twice is end of fight phase. If he dies and fights with it unsurprisingly you can't then attack at the end of fight phase as...well you are dead. So max he fights is twice. Whether by "fight again" or "I died so one last huzah" is up to what enemy can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:

A warboss can do everything a runtherd can do and more. I can't think of a scenario where buying more gretchin isn't superior to getting a runtherd.


Warboss is what 2x as expensive babysitter for backfield grots. If you have say 30 grots to screen those lootas either they are 3x10 or 1x30 and either way without babysitter morale is going to be issue. With runtherd or warboss morale is non-issue with 30 mob. And warboss is rather expensive baby sitter...About only thing speaking for that is that he's still one of the cheapest HQ's so for triple battallion list you might have one to spare for that. Especially if index isn't allowed. What else would be cheap HQ's? Trike expensive, MA big mek expensive. SAG big mek is pretty much only option besides warboss so you easily end up with 3 warboss so one cheap one sitting at backfield could be doable tax.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:29:06


Post by: PiñaColada


A runtherd is also a character so with deathskullz he has obsec, that coupled with character targeting rules means he can be pretty annoying to shift. One of those little things that might win you a game here and there


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:30:31


Post by: Jidmah


I really do not want to consider any klan traits for any models, because Death Skulls, Bad Moons and Evil Suns heavily warp what units are good and which are not. You could basically do different a rainbow for every klan, which is useful to almost no one.

As for any other unit, as long as I get a compelling argument why some unit should be further up/down I will change it. The goal of the rainbow list is not to reflect my opinion, but to give people with new or little experience with orks an overview. Most of the content is taken from the_scotsmans analysis, with some stuff added by myself and the old thread.

If you want to write up a klan section please use a this template:

Clan
Kulture - Description
Relic - Description
Warlord Trait - Description
Stratagem - Description
Named Character - Description
Units that benefit most from <Clan>
1) Datasheet - reason why/how to use them
2) Datasheet - reason why/how to use them
3) Datasheet - reason why/how to use them
4) Datasheet - reason why/how to use them
5) Datasheet - reason why/how to use them

(quote to get the tempalte, replace white with one of the five rainboy colors)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:38:14


Post by: PiñaColada


Perhaps the units can have a "consider running them as: Bad moons, eil sunz, whatever" in their description. I feel like that could help the necomers quite a bit without too much cluttering. Just a thought

Edit: Ugh, this reading thing is tough evidently. Just saw what you rote Jidmah. That would make my suggestion unnecessary


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:39:26


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

A warboss can do everything a runtherd can do and more. I can't think of a scenario where buying more gretchin isn't superior to getting a runtherd.


Warboss is what 2x as expensive babysitter for backfield grots. If you have say 30 grots to screen those lootas either they are 3x10 or 1x30 and either way without babysitter morale is going to be issue. With runtherd or warboss morale is non-issue with 30 mob. And warboss is rather expensive baby sitter...About only thing speaking for that is that he's still one of the cheapest HQ's so for triple battallion list you might have one to spare for that. Especially if index isn't allowed. What else would be cheap HQ's? Trike expensive, MA big mek expensive. SAG big mek is pretty much only option besides warboss so you easily end up with 3 warboss so one cheap one sitting at backfield could be doable tax.

I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place.

The warboss comment was more aimed at gretchin near the front of our army used as charge screens or similar, since there is little effort involved in just stretching a grot or two in the direction of the warboss you were bringing anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote:
Perhaps the units can have a "consider running them as: Bad moons, eil sunz, whatever" in their description. I feel like that could help the necomers quite a bit without too much cluttering. Just a thought


The raindbow design falls appart if you put too much text behind each unit. It was hard enough to shorten the texts as it is.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 12:56:02


Post by: koooaei


Meganobz are definitely green. They're great for what they cost. Yes, they somewhat interfere with target priority but they hit hard enough and are durable enough to make the game swing your way. Especially after you manage to deal with the majority of multi-damage weapons.

Painboy is better than yelow. Maybe teal. Still quite useful for fixing up your characters and protecting units around.

I also disagree with buggies and planes being teal. They are not bad but are too expensive and won't fit in any list. I think they're blue.

Btw. Why new thread? There is one allready.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:00:36


Post by: Jidmah


About ten people requested a new thread with a properly made OP.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:10:55


Post by: PiñaColada


 Jidmah wrote:

-SNIP-

I'll fill in some of these things on Evil Sunz quickly. I have to go do real life stuff pretty soon so see these more as building blocks to get started on.

Clan
Evil Sunz- Getting +1 to Move (+2 for <speed freekz>, Advance & Charges is huge and you'll always want to advance with ES since there's literally no penalty for it. Consider this kultur for deepstrike heavy lists, foot slogging infantry, bikes&deffkoptas and bonebreakas. This Kultur is a useful building block as part of a bigger Ork soup, but since they have no real benefits to shooting plenty of units gain nothing from it and are better suited using other Kulturs.
Rezmekka's redder armour - Sort of an odd relic, getting that +1 to move is probably the big gain here since the mortal wounds happen at the beginning of your movement phase. Meaning you opponent can always back out of combat. Try using it on a mini-mek in a bonebreaka, those get stronger on the charge so it could at least force your opponent into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Could be worth an extra CP to get this one, but overall there are stronger relics out there.
Speed Freek - Enables your entire fleet of vehicles to hit&run(& hit again). Consider putting this on you warbike/wartrike warlord if you've found them to be too squishy in close combat. Synergises well with bonebreakas because they get stronger on the charge, megatrakks because of mortal wounds and deffkoptas since they can still shoot after falling back because of fly. It's not bad but you're giving up a lot of offensive output on the warlord to gain this new trick.
Drive-by Krumpin' - Enables an Evil Sunz <Speed Freek> unit to move again at the end of the shooting phase. The speed freek requirement means no transport can use this, but it could be useful to reposition your deffkoptas after having moved them up to snipe a character. Also note that you can use this to move a unit up, shoot with it and then move back onto an objective and still have it count as defended the objective that turn. Cheap at 1CP and every now and then you'll find a use for it.

Super quick and dirty review of the things, don't know if you want them in a shorter format but at the very least they can work as placeholders I suppose.. I might have time later tonight to write about some units but otherwise I'm sure several people on here know full well which units work well with ES



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:17:05


Post by: tneva82


 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place


It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:20:07


Post by: Blackie


Thanks Jidmah

I like you analysis and basically agree about everything. I just wouldn't rate the warboss that low. It's still a 70-78 HQ that is as killy as they biker one in melee. And since our transports have a good rating I think he deserves better, of course the biker boss is the auto include but he can't have the same rating of killa kanz and mini meks.

Ghaz however is highly overrated. He costs like 3 warbosses, I play mostly goffs and never tempted to use him, not even once, as a couple of warbosses and a weirdboy are certainly more effective for the same points and also unlock CPs.

I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.

Manz and deff dreads are excatly on the same level IMHO. I'm also not a fan of the banner nob for its price, which is definitely too high, but I've never been, even if it's basically mandatory with goffs

Overall 1st page is a very good work


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:24:40


Post by: tneva82


Current list I'm planning for competive tournament in ~2.5 weeks. Maybe I'll get some more stuff painted(smasha guns in particular) but AT is taking away hobby time so maybe not. Index banned.

bad moon battallion:

big mek w/mega armour, KFF, kustom mega blasta
weirdboy(da jump)
30xgrots
11xgrots
10xgrots
runtherd w/squig hound
15xloota
10xtank busta

deathskull battallion:

mek w/SAG, warlord: kunning but brutal will be default go to unless somehow I figure deathskull one is better. This would be mostly on rarely open battlefield without much LOS blocking terrain to utilize
weirdboy(da jump)
3x10 gretchin

evil sun battallion:
trike(5+++)
weirdboy(not sure on spell. Fist of gork most likely candinate)
30xboyz(big choppa)
2x10 gretchin
3xdeff dread(2xklaw, saw, skorcha each) (skorcha due to WYSIWYG)
3xKMK(one drop or all separate? 20 drops means already hard to get that +1 so maybe freedom to deploy far away and more or less empty drops to draw opponents more important drops before dropping real stuff would be good)

Lootas/tank bustas will be main damage dealers. Boyz and deff dreads coming later to provide some h2h punch. Especially boyz I might even keep to turn 3 seeing boyz are softer target than ever. Trike used to either clear screen for deff dreads or counter charger once enemy comes close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:42:20


Post by: Blackie


tneva82 wrote:


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.


Not really. Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.

In my experience also bustas benefit from a trukk, due to short range of their guns and also because you may have more than a unit. I usually take two, and only one can fire twice. In a brigade that isn't bad moons or even deathskullz they don't really want to disembark unless they need to throw all the bombs by using the stratagem. More dakka and wreckers are definitely good but don't make tankbustas amazing, they already are. 10 dudes plus 2 bomb squigs in a trukk that shoot against a vehicle worth their points even without the stratagems.

If index is allowed, and in the majority of metas it is, the MSU deathskull style with 4 S8 weapons (3 of them re-rollable) in the same trukk can be very powerful. 10-12 skarboyz in a trukk may work as well, but also a full unit of nobz if you have 3 Bonebreakas/BWs with rollas and two other trukks full of bustas, which is the core of my current list.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 13:44:03


Post by: tneva82


31.5"(you threaten up to 43.5" from your table edge...If enemy puts further than that...Well da jump is even faster than trukk) is not what I would call short range and then being in trukk halves the firepower...Or puts under half.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 14:06:03


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place


It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.


Yeah, but aren't 2x 10 gretchin harder to kill than 10 gretchin and a runtherd? Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I find odd is the hate for Mad Dok Grotsnik. Have you people played him?
Before the codex hit, he was basically an auto-include in all my lists since he basically is a warboss (S5, T5, WS2+, A4) who trades two wounds for 5+++, painboy aura and the ability to heal stuff. His "drawback" is very easily controlled and and turned out to be "can charge after falling back or advancing" for me most of the time. I'm not sure about the wording in the index, but according to the codex he can operate on himself (of course he can! ) so he regenerates d3 wounds every turn as long as he is alive. Deff Skulls kulture providing re-rolls for his PK, a 6++ and objective secured makes him just as viable as a warboss in my book.

One thing I have been musing about is a Council of da Waaagh! supreme command detachment - Thrakka, Zagstrukk and a weirdboy/Badrukk for plug-in goffs or Grotsnik, SAG mek with sniper trait and weirdboy/Badrukk for plug-in Deff Skulls.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 14:26:14


Post by: tneva82


 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place


It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.


Yeah, but aren't 2x 10 gretchin harder to kill than 10 gretchin and a runtherd? Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?


Obviously if 20 grots is all you have runtherd is less of an issue. Whatabout 50? Lootas eat lots of fire so they take tons of shots. Tournament i lost the 39 i had in no time and this vs h2h armies or short range fire. Against good gunline 20 grots would not protect lootas. Also kept wishing i had something to keep morale up as enemies often cripled 2-3 squads and let morale finish off. 6 wounds and it's dead unit. And 30 strong mob suffers huge casualties

And as to why range and t4 from orks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 14:27:52


Post by: Weazel


 Jidmah wrote:
Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?


Because wounding a T2 gretchin is way easier than a T4 Ork? If I had like a bunch of Lasguns (or equivalent) I'd probably whittle down the Gretchin first and unleash some bigger guns on the now unshielded Lootas.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 14:58:14


Post by: lord_blackfang


This is just an aesthetic issue, but the blue headings are completely unreadable on dakka's default theme (charcoal gray).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 15:04:39


Post by: greggles


redder armour


The really nice thing about this, is that it forces your opponent to make decisions, and most likely enables the BW to always get the charge for the extra D6 attacks. Make sure you drift the battle wagon when you charge for maximum hilarity.

Note: Though you have to be within 12 inches to charge something, you can still use ramming speed to move more then 12 inches (drift the battlewagon behind the enemy force, then charge the boyz into the front.

Also if you want your opponent to cry a little, kill the banner bearer with a double KMB big mek on a bike (deathskulls with deathskulls warlord trait).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 15:42:32


Post by: Jidmah


We are bouncing around on arguments here. Lootas tend to be in the backfield, and we are playing orks. The enemy running at you to get into your backfield with lasguns and bolters is going to be highly unlikely.

So most of the time, you need to protect your lootas from guns that have 24" range or more, or from units deep striking/flying into your backfield. Most of those will be able to reach both your lootas and your gretchin, considering that they need to be within 6" of each other.

If I wanted to kill lootas, I would start with shooting the lootas themselves with something like a heavy stubber to trigger the stratagem and then just shoot the gretchin which were the target of that stratagem until they are dead - unless I'm wounding lootas on 3+, then shooting them is just as efficient as shooting gretchin, with a 1 killing one loota instead of a grot. Once the target unit is gone, there is zero reason to shoot those other gretchin units hanging about instead of the now unprotected lootas.
So, either I wipe out those gretchin, or I'm simply not shooting lootas this turn.
Assuming I can kill 39 gretchin like tneva's opponent, I could also kill 30 gretchin and 5-6 lootas.

If your opponent shoots those 30 gretchin and tries to make them implode via moral, he needs to shoot at least 14 of them. He also is not killing those lootas this turn, because moral is after the fight phase. If you need those gretchin to stay in place no matter what, spend 2CP to have them stay there. If you don't... it's highly unlikely that the guns used to kill those 14 gretchin costs less than 90 points. If your opponent spends most of his anti-infantry shooting on dwindling down 3 units of gretchin, he is doing exactly what you want.

Last, there is the possibility that something will come to melee the lootas and wants the gretchin gone beforehand - once again, melee is after fighting, so even if the gretchin implode to moral, it's mission accomplished: lootas are safe.
If the gretchin don't survive shooting, which one would you rather have standing in front of your lootas - a runtherd or 10 more gretchin?

A runtherd can also be killed by snipers, blown up by psychic powers or assassinated by a unit with fly.

In the end - especially in the context of killing lootas - your opponent needs to go through all 30 gretchin anyways, the runtherd does nothing to prevent that from happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
This is just an aesthetic issue, but the blue headings are completely unreadable on dakka's default theme (charcoal gray).


Replaced with Deff Skullz blue


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 15:49:58


Post by: greggles


Technically (correct me if I'm wrong), you don't have to take all the gretchin from one unit (if you have multiple units of gretchin around the lootas. Thus allowing you to distribute the dead gretchin to prevent excessive morale losses.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 15:59:56


Post by: Jidmah


The errata'ed rules text says

‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit
from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of
Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon.
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time
an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit
if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan>
Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the
Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the
target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that
Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’

I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:01:44


Post by: the_scotsman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.


Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Thanks for all the praise, but most of the ranking I have taken from the_scotsman's analysis, except for those where I heavily disagreed or felt like it didn't reflect what other people were reporting for those units.

I will improve it with the critiques in here so far, just making the stupid rainbow structure and shortening all the texts took me hours.

What I want to have in the first post is an analysis for each klan, taking into account the klan's relic, warlord trait and stratagem, not just the kulture. Below that should be the units which benefit most from running that klan (TOP 5 or something) and klan-specific unit constallations like the redder armour mek or the deffskulls rokkit trukk boyz.
I feel this has more value to players new to orks than "take Evil Sund or Deff Skulls, everything else sucks".


I agree with the can analysis. And I definitely understand that my analysis is too long for a non-spoilered post and also is only my own opinion. I agree with most of the adjustments so far.


I think almost any clan is workable with the right setup, it's awesome.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:06:54


Post by: greggles


I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.


Aye, if we can distribute the grot shield to any gretchin unit within 6, then 3 units of 10 would work as well as 1 unit of 30, and get you more battallion taxes. (actually better, depending on the amount of incoming fire, plus if they wanted to kill the grots, they'd have to kill three separate units)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:25:57


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


the_scotsman wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.


Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.



Well, yes against a single target the rivet kannon does perform better.
But can it engage 2 targets at once, that are different types at 36" range?
Can it do better in melee? The KBB does get mortal wounds, but that's only on the charge and only if you roll a 4+.
Does it have an extra wound?
Can you buy a KBB without having to buy the Speed Freaks set, or hope that its available on ebay?

On paper, the buggy doesn't look great, but in a practical situation it might be useful. Its something that has to be tested.

One thing confuses me about the new buggy rules - for the KBB, Squigbuggy, and snazzwagon it says "each crew is armed with..."
Well, how many crew does each buggy have? Or by crew, do they mean collectively? As in, the entire crew is armed with a squig launcher, and I get to use that in addition to the heavy squiglauncher?
Does that mean I can't use the shotgun and the squiglauncher at the same time, as the crew are using both?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:28:48


Post by: PiñaColada


The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:37:50


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.


Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:43:20


Post by: the_scotsman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.



Well, yes against a single target the rivet kannon does perform better.
But can it engage 2 targets at once, that are different types at 36" range?
Can it do better in melee? The KBB does get mortal wounds, but that's only on the charge and only if you roll a 4+.
Does it have an extra wound?
Can you buy a KBB without having to buy the Speed Freaks set, or hope that its available on ebay?

On paper, the buggy doesn't look great, but in a practical situation it might be useful. Its something that has to be tested.

One thing confuses me about the new buggy rules - for the KBB, Squigbuggy, and snazzwagon it says "each crew is armed with..."
Well, how many crew does each buggy have? Or by crew, do they mean collectively? As in, the entire crew is armed with a squig launcher, and I get to use that in addition to the heavy squiglauncher?
Does that mean I can't use the shotgun and the squiglauncher at the same time, as the crew are using both?


It says "the crew" in my book, indicating collectively.

The range or the squigbuggy is negligible when the weapons they are armed with are all assault and they have 10-12" movement. And yes, between the 8 flamer auto hits and the mortals the Kbb is solidly better at close range/melee.

And look, even if you can find some tiny instance where the squigbuggy has an edge...it costs what 35% more?

You're down to "you need to buy a box set to get this one until gw releases it as a kit" as an argument for the squigbuggy... I really do want it to be good. If it were 100 pts I would use it regardless. But its ridiculous price tag coupled with its lackluster weapons compared to almost any other buggy makes it solidly trash.

I'm just using it as a second Kbb. Nobody cares where I play.

Also, all the buggies cost more than 100pts?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:44:19


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.


Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.

It's just pistols that are special, where you'd either shoot pistols or everything else. This rule circumvents that and you can shoot everything (with normal restrictions in regards to advancing etc)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:44:20


Post by: the_scotsman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.


Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.


A model may fire all weapons it's armed with or all pistols.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 16:51:49


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You know what I find really disappointing about the squigbuggy? There's nothing about it being a food wagon. Like, that was something GW mentioned when they revealed it, right? That it provided food?
You'd think that would be an actual rule. Like, it gives +1 to their leadership stat because Orks really like eating squigs or something.

Anyway, Devil's advocate for the Snazzwagon -

Well, for starters it is certainly inferior in close combat to the Squigbuggy and the KBB. That's a given.
Its main gun is actually better though against single wound T4 models, as both that and the river cannon are wounding on a 3+ anyway, it has the same armor mod but you get more shots.
There is a difference in range, but if the range is negligible due to their fast speed, then logically that wouldn't be that much of a factor.
It also has a big shoota, which adds a little more more anti-infantry firepower.
Really, if it weren't for the 4 burna exhausts then the snazzwagon would actually be better at killing infantry than the KBB. Keep in mind though that you do have to get close with the burna exhausts, and that could open the KBB up to a hard counter attack if you wiff your rolls.

Now, where the snazzwagon really shines is the -1 to hit mod against it, which can be combined with Billowing Exhaust Clouds to increase it to -2 to hit. The snazzwagon is eligible as the only requirement is that the unit must be SPEED FREAKS.

It seems to me that the distinction between the two is that you are meant to get stuck in with the KBB, whereas for the snazzwagon you are supposed to kite with it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 17:11:10


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know what I find really disappointing about the squigbuggy? There's nothing about it being a food wagon. Like, that was something GW mentioned when they revealed it, right? That it provided food?
You'd think that would be an actual rule. Like, it gives +1 to their leadership stat because Orks really like eating squigs or something.

Yes, that sucks.. For a while I thought it would have like an explosion rule, but way worse. "Blows" up on a 4+ and what really happens is all the squigs on it break out of their cages and run rampant.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 17:21:31


Post by: Sluggaloo


tneva82 wrote:
Current list I'm planning for competive tournament in ~2.5 weeks. Maybe I'll get some more stuff painted(smasha guns in particular) but AT is taking away hobby time so maybe not. Index banned.

bad moon battallion:

big mek w/mega armour, KFF, kustom mega blasta
weirdboy(da jump)
30xgrots
11xgrots
10xgrots
runtherd w/squig hound
15xloota
10xtank busta

deathskull battallion:

mek w/SAG, warlord: kunning but brutal will be default go to unless somehow I figure deathskull one is better. This would be mostly on rarely open battlefield without much LOS blocking terrain to utilize
weirdboy(da jump)
3x10 gretchin

evil sun battallion:
trike(5+++)
weirdboy(not sure on spell. Fist of gork most likely candinate)
30xboyz(big choppa)
2x10 gretchin
3xdeff dread(2xklaw, saw, skorcha each) (skorcha due to WYSIWYG)
3xKMK(one drop or all separate? 20 drops means already hard to get that +1 so maybe freedom to deploy far away and more or less empty drops to draw opponents more important drops before dropping real stuff would be good)

Lootas/tank bustas will be main damage dealers. Boyz and deff dreads coming later to provide some h2h punch. Especially boyz I might even keep to turn 3 seeing boyz are softer target than ever. Trike used to either clear screen for deff dreads or counter charger once enemy comes close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.


Bear in mind you can't use deffskulls grots to grot shield badmoons lootas.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 17:38:33


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Jidmah wrote:

An Actual Englishman239272 17b89bd54c1da3ae84e8a3ebdb776c66.jpg wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.

I agree with this analysis also.

The squigbuggy is not on the same level as the Snazzwagon.

Also I want to petition that the Stompa is put into a category all on its own. That thing does not deserve to be in the red category and I'd hate to think a casual player read this and purchased one not realising how truly useless they are.


We did the math in a previous thread and its shooting is slightly below that of the squig buggy and lacking the mine. It's also strictly worse than the KBB, so red is the right category in my book - from a strictly competitive point of view, you should not be getting snazzwagons.

Even if it's not as bad as the squig buggy, it's definitely not in the same league as Warbosses, Painboyz or Killa Kanz.

I see little point discussing in this 'tactics' thread if you're just gong to offhand dismiss other people's opinions because they are different to your own.

Snazzwagons, as stated above, have a far greater potential threat range when compared to KBBs and they explode on a 4+ which seems to be the majority of the reason you'd take he more expensive Burna bomber.

They also have a native -1 to hit so are more tanky at range.

I disagreed with you in the last discussion and I disagree with you here (along with Smiley it seems like).

If you don't like our opinions that's fine but basing it on a flawed damage per point against chaff ratio and claiming it as gospel is bogus.

A key for the ranking system would also be useful.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 17:38:45


Post by: Sluggaloo


 Blackie wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.


Not really. Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.


You might be onto something here. With a mostly mek gunz based list (the unit freebooters will 100% want to start triggering their kultur), add a bunch of trucks parked 24 inches in front of the mek gun line and fill them with Flashgits. They would get their kultur procced even sitting inside open topped vehicles. That list with a bit of luck will snowball over any list bar a full Knights list, which you'd struggle to proc the kultur with.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:00:52


Post by: tneva82


 Jidmah wrote:
We are bouncing around on arguments here. Lootas tend to be in the backfield, and we are playing orks. The enemy running at you to get into your backfield with lasguns and bolters is going to be highly unlikely.

So most of the time, you need to protect your lootas from guns that have 24" range or more, or from units deep striking/flying into your backfield. Most of those will be able to reach both your lootas and your gretchin, considering that they need to be within 6" of each other.

If I wanted to kill lootas, I would start with shooting the lootas themselves with something like a heavy stubber to trigger the stratagem and then just shoot the gretchin which were the target of that stratagem until they are dead - unless I'm wounding lootas on 3+, then shooting them is just as efficient as shooting gretchin, with a 1 killing one loota instead of a grot. Once the target unit is gone, there is zero reason to shoot those other gretchin units hanging about instead of the now unprotected lootas.
So, either I wipe out those gretchin, or I'm simply not shooting lootas this turn.
Assuming I can kill 39 gretchin like tneva's opponent, I could also kill 30 gretchin and 5-6 lootas.


Funny that in practice I have run into opposite. a) 24" weapon ranges can be put to range(remember things MOVE generally...Which is why saying tank busta is short range is pretty odd seeing they have average range of 31.5"). In practice what I found out is that a) 24" weapon range weapons like bolters etc were reaching the gretchin b) sometimes not lootas c) even if enemy had range to loota they would still shoot gretchin instead. Maybe they kill few lootas less T1 but wounding on 2+ rather than 4+ or even better wounding on 3+ rather than 5+(which is bigger help than 2+ vs 4+) and more casualties means you need to cause less wounds in average to clear grots and lootas.

I even asked opponent why he was shooting grots rather than lootas and point was specifically T4 vs T2.

If your opponent shoots those 30 gretchin and tries to make them implode via moral, he needs to shoot at least 14 of them. He also is not killing those lootas this turn, because moral is after the fight phase. If you need those gretchin to stay in place no matter what, spend 2CP to have them stay there. If you don't... it's highly unlikely that the guns used to kill those 14 gretchin costs less than 90 points. If your opponent spends most of his anti-infantry shooting on dwindling down 3 units of gretchin, he is doing exactly what you want.


2CP is worth more than 35 pts. When you have 9 and lootas eats over 4 per turn...

Last, there is the possibility that something will come to melee the lootas and wants the gretchin gone beforehand - once again, melee is after fighting, so even if the gretchin implode to moral, it's mission accomplished: lootas are safe.
If the gretchin don't survive shooting, which one would you rather have standing in front of your lootas - a runtherd or 10 more gretchin?


Funny thing is game doesn't end in T1. I want grots to hang around in T2.

A runtherd can also be killed by snipers, blown up by psychic powers or assassinated by a unit with fly.


Unsurprisingly runtherd will be out of LOS. Haven't faced psychic powers that snipe runtherd out of LOS behind stuff. And of course FAQ means that the LOS blocking terrain+grots mean no charging T1 runtherd either.

In the end - especially in the context of killing lootas - your opponent needs to go through all 30 gretchin anyways, the runtherd does nothing to prevent that from happening.


Ensures he needs to spend more firepower to take down the 50 grots than without.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greggles wrote:
Technically (correct me if I'm wrong), you don't have to take all the gretchin from one unit (if you have multiple units of gretchin around the lootas. Thus allowing you to distribute the dead gretchin to prevent excessive morale losses.


At which point you lose grots from morale from multiple squads. There's reason why people shoot smartly multiple gretchin squads rather than concentrate on one unit. Same reason why when shooting at 2 units of 30 orks you prefer to kill 15 from both rather than 30 from one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.


Apart from minimizing casualties when opponent shoots at grots, better board control, ability to cover 2 objectives while being within runtherd/warboss range and within 6" of lootas even with casualties etc etc etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greggles wrote:
I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.


Aye, if we can distribute the grot shield to any gretchin unit within 6, then 3 units of 10 would work as well as 1 unit of 30, and get you more battallion taxes. (actually better, depending on the amount of incoming fire, plus if they wanted to kill the grots, they'd have to kill three separate units)


And against 3 units of 10 opponent kills 6 from each and kills 30 for price of 18 ;-)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:08:37


Post by: pismakron


Shouldn't the Blitza Bommer be rated strictly higher than the burna bommer, now that they both have two bombs? Or am I missing something?

There are many of the ratings are am skeptical about, but we will all know more when we have played a dozen games or so. The new blue shade is a definite improvement


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:08:47


Post by: tneva82


Sluggaloo wrote:
Bear in mind you can't use deffskulls grots to grot shield badmoons lootas.


Yep. Death skull grots will be used to sit over objectives, get in way of enemy by da jumping(if lootas/tank bustas don't need that) etc etc etc multipurpose. Grots are one of the orks best units and have other roles than just grot screen strategem. 51 grots is enough for that purpose(I hope. Haven't played yet against real competive gunline. Dark eldars I faced weren't that competive, nurgle/khorne not that much of a shootiness, ultramarines weren't most competive version either and the salamanders ditto weren't much of a gunline and short range fiirefight anyway. Plus with 400 pts dreadnought of 8" range doom not much points for gunlines anyway). No point loading up same battlefield corner with more.

The whole batt is there for 5 more CP as the lootas/tank bustas will eat over 4 CP in turn per average so 2 bat would be 13-4 for tellyporta=9 left. With grot screen even once I wouldn't be able to fully power up lootas 2 turn in average...

And deathskull mainly just 'cause I needed one more cheapish HQ and I have SAG mek in death skull colour scheme. And at least it's 2 more ob sec models to have around.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:29:41


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:56:46


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.

Look, you're trying very hard to find some sort of upside with it. That's probably a good idea but this thing is just hot junk IMO. If you allow me to be a bit unfair and reductionist you're basically saying it's better because it's slower.

It has the worst durability per point of all the buggies, it's one of the slowest buggies out there. Its guns are mediocre at best against any target and its one good feature, the mine, is one use only and can only be placed, not fired. Even if you knock 30 points off it it still wouldn't be good. Maybe if it had a stratagem tied to the food truck aspect, granting a FnP or immunity to morale it might have some more uses. What it really needed is for all the random shots to be maxed out instead so the 2d6 turns to 12 etc.

Edit: I think you're right about its intended role, it just stinks at it


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 18:58:05


Post by: TedNugent


Big mek with a shokk attack gun is not better than a warboss. Run the math on that gun. It is horrible for the points. It should cost less than 50.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 19:04:38


Post by: BaconCatBug


 TedNugent wrote:
Big mek with a shokk attack gun is not better than a warboss. Run the math on that gun. It is horrible for the points. It should cost less than 50.
"60% of the time, it works every time."

Big Mek with SAG is there only if you can't take any more Weirdboyz due to Organised Play restrictions, otherwise you have no reason to use anything but Weirdboyz.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 19:21:56


Post by: Pandabeer


Do Nob Bikers really deserve to be in the red bracket? I can't help but think they're kinda decent... I'm going to compare PK bikers to the Skrapjet which I think is the closest equivalent (2 PK Nob Bikers is roughly 1 Skrapjet in points):

Shooting: Bikers bring 4 Dakkaguns total, Skrapjet 2 twin big shoota's (1 of them hitting on 4s), the Rokkit Kannon and Wing Rokkits. Well, this ones' no contest, Skrapjet easily wins.

Melee: Here's where it gets interesting as the Bikers significantly outperform the Jet. 6 PK attacks at S10 AP-3 Dd3 vs. 4 drill attacks at S8 AP-2 Dd3. S10 allows for 2+ to wound vs. S5 and 3+ vs. T8, both commonly found in the game, and the extra point of AP is very nice too. Then they also get 2 extra choppa attacks at S5 AP0 D1. Will not add that much since their main CC targets are tanks, monsters and TEQ but they're free so you're gonna take them anyway. Of course the Jet deals an additional D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ on the charge and can make use of the Ramming Speed stratagem, but still I think the Bikers win out here.

Resilience: This one goes the Skrapjet as well beating out the Bikers by 3W and 1T and not degrading over time. On the other hand, the bikers' wounds are spread over more models meaning that D6 weapons are less effective against them (not a very big advantahe but still).

Mobility: IMO this ones' a biggy, especially in Evil Sunz lists as Bikers have a significantly higher chance to make a T1 charge (at least without spending 2 CP on Ramming Speed). Those 4 extra inches of movement can make a pretty big difference.

All in all, I think the Skrapjet is the better option in most situations, but I don't think the Nob Bikers deserve to be at the bottom of the barrel in such illustrous company as the Stompa and Squigbuggy. Especially in ES lists I think they can have a niche in threatening a T1 charge, even if that just forces your opponent to deploy slightly differently.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.


The big problem is the price. If you compare them on a model-to-model basis the Squigbuggy is roughly equal to the other buggies but costs 30-40 points more (20 in case of the Dragsta). Really can't wrap my head around why the hell it's so muc more expensive than the others. Would probably be blue if it simply had the sensible price of 100 points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 19:40:32


Post by: Marklarr


PiñaColada wrote:
I mean, you can't perform a heroic intervention in your own turn can you? So I fail to see how this is even a combo. If you could, then why would you ever charge and be subject to overwatch with your characters?

The rulebook states: "After a player has moved all their charging models, the other players can attempt to perform Heroic Interventions in an order decided by the player whose turn it is [...]"
Emphasis mine, page 270


The combo I see happening is something like this

Charge bikerboss/trike into enemy in your turn and if the enemy stays in combat until, their turn, use the drive by krumpin strat at the end of the enemies shooting phase (the strat isn’t specific as to who’s turn to use it on) fall back 3” leaving them with the option of either charging the warboss or you are going to heroically intervene into them

This just occurred to me while typing this....

If you could shield bikerboss from shooting on enemies turn for safety but with a path to some juicy targets use drive by krumpin to torpedo him forward within heroic intervention range and hulk smash some stuff. The worst that could happen is they will change you and get their attacks off first, but I think this is where the Feel no pain trait could come in useful.

Torpedo biker boss for the win!!!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 19:41:44


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


this thread is looking great, I hope it becomes the definitive one, rather than the one I saw earlier with a load of useless gubbinz in the first post.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 19:43:13


Post by: Marklarr


 Marklarr wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I mean, you can't perform a heroic intervention in your own turn can you? So I fail to see how this is even a combo. If you could, then why would you ever charge and be subject to overwatch with your characters?

The rulebook states: "After a player has moved all their charging models, the other players can attempt to perform Heroic Interventions in an order decided by the player whose turn it is [...]"
Emphasis mine, page 270


The combo I see happening is something like this

Charge bikerboss/trike into enemy in your turn and if the enemy stays in combat until, their turn, use the drive by krumpin strat at the end of the enemies shooting phase (the strat isn’t specific as to who’s turn to use it on) fall back 3” leaving them with the option of either charging the warboss or you are going to heroically intervene into them

This just occurred to me while typing this....

If you could shield bikerboss from shooting on enemies turn for safety but with a path to some juicy targets use drive by krumpin to torpedo him forward within heroic intervention range and hulk smash some stuff. The worst that could happen is they will change you and get their attacks off first, but I think this is where the Feel no pain trait could come in useful.

Torpedo biker boss for the win!!!


Just wanted to add that I’m not trying to be gamey with the rules with this, it just seems that’s the way it’s intended and to me a super fluffy waboss wanting to get in on the action first.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:00:59


Post by: PiñaColada


 Marklarr wrote:


Just wanted to add that I’m not trying to be gamey with the rules with this, it just seems that’s the way it’s intended and to me a super fluffy waboss wanting to get in on the action first.

They literally state you cannot use drive-by krumpin' in your opponents phase in the FAQ


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:06:57


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.

I mean the Squig Buggy is the same price as a Deff Rolla Battlewagon.

That just seems insane to me. The units fulfil very different roles sure but I’m really struggling to see what possible reason it has to be so many points. Squig bombs aren’t even that great. I can’t think of many units that are terrified of up to 3 (but likely less) mortal wounds. Especially if there’s a objective to be taken.

At 100-110 the Squig Buggy might be worth it for fun games.

Of all the overcosted buggies, and they’re all overcosted for what they do relative to other factions’ equivalent units, the Squig Buggy is the most vastly overcosted.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:16:42


Post by: BaconCatBug


Anyone think it's worth buffing a Weirdboy Multiple times so you can deny all the powers Eldar inevitably bring?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:27:17


Post by: PiñaColada


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone think it's worth buffing a Weirdboy Multiple times so you can deny all the powers Eldar inevitably bring?

Even as warpheads they only still have one deny each


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:37:45


Post by: BaconCatBug


PiñaColada wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone think it's worth buffing a Weirdboy Multiple times so you can deny all the powers Eldar inevitably bring?

Even as warpheads they only still have one deny each
So they do, my bad.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:43:32


Post by: PiñaColada


 BaconCatBug wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone think it's worth buffing a Weirdboy Multiple times so you can deny all the powers Eldar inevitably bring?

Even as warpheads they only still have one deny each
So they do, my bad.

Unfortunately I share the same problem with Eldar so I have already been disappointed by that. What I wouldn't do for an Orky culexus assassin


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:43:48


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.

I mean the Squig Buggy is the same price as a Deff Rolla Battlewagon.

That just seems insane to me. The units fulfil very different roles sure but I’m really struggling to see what possible reason it has to be so many points. Squig bombs aren’t even that great. I can’t think of many units that are terrified of up to 3 (but likely less) mortal wounds. Especially if there’s a objective to be taken.

At 100-110 the Squig Buggy might be worth it for fun games.

Of all the overcosted buggies, and they’re all overcosted for what they do relative to other factions’ equivalent units, the Squig Buggy is the most vastly overcosted.


I think its because of the mine.
I don't think its worth 140 points either, but I do see a use for it.
Basically, while the rest of your army is in your opponent's face, the buggy will be hanging back, throwing out squigs and making sure nothing deepstrikes in to threaten your lootas and mek gunz. The mine is to make deep striking a little more dangerous.
That's the idea, at least. Will it work in practice or is it cost effective? Idk. It depends on if your opponent has something that can threaten your backline, or that it stops the enemy from wrecking your long range damage dealers.
I mean, if it can stop a unit from tying up your mek guns and lootas for multiple turns without having to redirect forces from the front line, then it did its job, right?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:48:06


Post by: flandarz


For just over the cost of the buggy, you could just get 5 MSUs of Gretchin and deny Deepstrike through lack of space. With good spacing, you could probably do it with 2-3, letting you use the other two for Objective camping, or Grot Shielding.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:51:58


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 flandarz wrote:
For just over the cost of the buggy, you could just get 5 MSUs of Gretchin and deny Deepstrike through lack of space. With good spacing, you could probably do it with 2-3, letting you use the other two for Objective camping, or Grot Shielding.


You could do that, but where are you going to deploy the rest of your army?
What are they going to do if your opponent does get in your back line?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:53:42


Post by: tneva82


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I mean, if it can stop a unit from tying up your mek guns and lootas for multiple turns without having to redirect forces from the front line, then it did its job, right?


That's d3 mortal wounds. I think opponents will take that d3 rather than leave mek guns alive.

Though on rulewise...Wouldn't the mine actually cause the 9" bubble. Though even for that simply more grots is better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
For just over the cost of the buggy, you could just get 5 MSUs of Gretchin and deny Deepstrike through lack of space. With good spacing, you could probably do it with 2-3, letting you use the other two for Objective camping, or Grot Shielding.


You could do that, but where are you going to deploy the rest of your army?
What are they going to do if your opponent does get in your back line?


The front of gretchins? Seeing boy swarm died deployment space is plentifull. And the d3 mortal wounds aren't scaring anybody in backfields either.

Oh and 30 grots will basically block your entire backfield spaced to max and will even end up blocking suffering ~25 casualties with sneaky casualty removal. Couple smaller squads to sides and space wolves aren't coming anywhere until they clear one of those units.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 20:57:46


Post by: flandarz


Well, you don't gotta worry much about DS denial on T1, so they'd be squished into the rear alongside your Mek Gunz and Lootas and such. And if the opponent still manages to get there, they'll do what Grots are for: screen.


That said, the Buggy is pretty bad at DS denial too. It only gets 1 Mine, which doesn't even count as a model, so they don't have to be 9" away from it. Sure, it has better Dakka than the Grots, but you're leaving your backfield open to use it. I'd rather just surround my Gunz with Grots than bank on someone DSing onto a Mine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rule, in case anyone was wondering:

Squig Mine: Once per battle, in the Movement phase, this
model can deploy a squig mine. At any point during this
model’s move, place the squig mine within 1" of it and
more than 3" from any enemy models. The squig mine is
represented by the squig mine model, but does not count as
a model for any rules purposes. From the start of the next
phase, that squig mine is detonated if any unit (friend or foe)
moves within 3" of it. Resolve the detonation after the unit
that detonated it has ended its move. When a squig mine
is detonated, roll a D6: on a 2-3 it inflicts 1 mortal wound
on the unit that detonated it; on a 4-5 it inflicts D3 mortal
wounds on the unit that detonated it; and on a 6 it inflicts 3
mortal wounds on the unit that detonated it. The squig mine
is then removed from the battlefield.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:04:35


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


The squig mine does not count as a wound for any rules purposes, so it does not create a 9" bubble.
Its not just the mine, you still have the buggy. Enemy tries to engage the guns, the buggy moves to intercept.

The question is though, will the buggy kill the enemy before they get to the gunz?

The grots thing could work, if there's space for everyone.
Even if your opponent shoots at them, that's still fire power being directed towards them and not towards something more important. The only thing they can't stop is something that physically moves up the table.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:08:37


Post by: flandarz


Well, if your opponent DS's, then there's a fair possibility you won't be able to intercept. Plenty of Strats out there to improve charges. Like I said, I'd rather they just... not DS at all.

You should be able to fit 30 Grots into the backfield with plenty of space for everyone else. Even 50 won't take up too much space, unless you're playing a small map. And if you're playing a small map, you might not even need DS denial, if you space your Gunz and Lootaz correctly.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:14:53


Post by: Sluggaloo


 Marklarr wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I mean, you can't perform a heroic intervention in your own turn can you? So I fail to see how this is even a combo. If you could, then why would you ever charge and be subject to overwatch with your characters?

The rulebook states: "After a player has moved all their charging models, the other players can attempt to perform Heroic Interventions in an order decided by the player whose turn it is [...]"
Emphasis mine, page 270


The combo I see happening is something like this

Charge bikerboss/trike into enemy in your turn and if the enemy stays in combat until, their turn, use the drive by krumpin strat at the end of the enemies shooting phase (the strat isn’t specific as to who’s turn to use it on) fall back 3” leaving them with the option of either charging the warboss or you are going to heroically intervene into them

This just occurred to me while typing this....

If you could shield bikerboss from shooting on enemies turn for safety but with a path to some juicy targets use drive by krumpin to torpedo him forward within heroic intervention range and hulk smash some stuff. The worst that could happen is they will change you and get their attacks off first, but I think this is where the Feel no pain trait could come in useful.

Torpedo biker boss for the win!!!


Seem to remember drivebykrumpin being clarified in the FAQ to not work on the enemies shooting phase


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:18:31


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hmm I see, that does make the buggy's role in that respect questionable.
That is probably why they have in mind, but if there are better alternatives, then its not that good for the price. It does provide some firepower, at least, but is it worth 140?
Probably not.

Perhaps they should have made it into more of a support vehicle then. Like, it has its squig launchers and the squig mine, but it also has access to heal squigs (FNP), smoke squigs (grants cover), beer squigs (morale increase), etc.
That would increase its utility somewhat.
It would also be hilarious.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:19:55


Post by: tneva82


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The squig mine does not count as a wound for any rules purposes, so it does not create a 9" bubble.
Its not just the mine, you still have the buggy. Enemy tries to engage the guns, the buggy moves to intercept.


So even worse than that as grots will be usable to block entire backscreen. Orks is faction that's one of the hardest to get anywhere near.

Oh and generally when deep strikers hit they are either guns or they charge reliably like bloodletters and their 3d6" charges etc. In either case buggy isn't intercepting anything. More like it provides another soft target for enemy to destroy along the mek guns.


The question is though, will the buggy kill the enemy before they get to the gunz?


Enemy shoots or charges mek guns before buggy does anything. That's thus easy answer.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:21:36


Post by: An Actual Englishman


CthuluIsSpy 767149 10239939 6c5bf3950e5bdacfd6e45daa99eb592a wrote:

I think its because of the mine.
I don't think its worth 140 points either, but I do see a use for it.
Basically, while the rest of your army is in your opponent's face, the buggy will be hanging back, throwing out squigs and making sure nothing deepstrikes in to threaten your lootas and mek gunz. The mine is to make deep striking a little more dangerous.
That's the idea, at least. Will it work in practice or is it cost effective? Idk. It depends on if your opponent has something that can threaten your backline, or that it stops the enemy from wrecking your long range damage dealers.
I mean, if it can stop a unit from tying up your mek guns and lootas for multiple turns without having to redirect forces from the front line, then it did its job, right?


Yea dude if you’re desperate to run one I’m sure you’ll find a place for it. It’s just one of those things that has better equivalents throughout. The other Buggies are all superior, both as a distraction Carnifex type unit and as an area denial tool.

140 pts is 20 Boyz. 20 T4 Wounds with an admittedly weak 6+ save but also with a ton of bodies that can be put in cover or spread over the backfield for deep strike denial. They will also crush things in combat.

Aren’t the humble shoota Boyz in Trukk better than the Squig Buggy lol? Both in terms of damage output and survivability?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:38:49


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Eh, I think the buggy does better against 2w models, but I'm not sure. The guns probably need more shots though.

Not sure why the dakkajet is so high on the list. Isn't it possible to kill flyers just by pushing them off the table?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 21:48:50


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


Perhaps yourself, or an equally active member of the community, would be willing to contribute towards similarly color-coded list of Forge-World options hosted in a "spoiler" section, or simply denoted in the current list with a "(FW)"?
As someone with a couple of FW toys who rarely gets to play, I love reading the thoughts of more active players on the current meta.

I understand FW products can be unpopular, but if index options are being included, options like the chinnork (which had its moment) and the garg-squiggoth (which "was" the best transport if you could afford it) still feel worth mentioning. And options like grot-tanks, big-squiggoths, etc, are going to be popular and receive questions over the duration of this thread's life-span, more especially given people's access to their rulesets through battlescribe, and converted/3rd-party/pre-owned models.

It's a nice list to work with as it stands though, I'm just greedy for more


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 22:48:13


Post by: pismakron


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone think it's worth buffing a Weirdboy Multiple times so you can deny all the powers Eldar inevitably bring?


If you need lots of deny just bring multiple weirdboyz. They are cheap, they fill out HQ slots, and they can be quite useful both for smiting and using powers, even though we only have three good power (and smite)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 22:53:23


Post by: flandarz


I dunno. I think Da Krunch ain't terrible, if you're up against a blob army. Can potentially wipe the whole unit with some (admittedly unlikely) good rolls.

In any case, with rule of three, the best you can do with Orkz is 3 denies. Not awful, but it'd be better if we could, at least, get Waagh Energy bonus to the Deny attempt.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 22:57:30


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


The C'tan have a power that's basically Da Crunch, but there's no casting value. It isn't great. You'll most likely kill 5 models, and that's against a 30 model blob.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:00:09


Post by: flandarz


That's still better than the average on a Smite. Not saying it's better than Da Jump or Fist of Gork, but I wouldn't put it as low as Roar of Mork and 'Eadbanga.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Da Krunch can target any unit within 18", instead of just the closest, so it has a bit more utility when it comes to positioning.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:01:58


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Speaking of weirdboy powers, where's zzapp? Wasn't that a basic offensive weirdboy power? Strange how it didn't make that in.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:06:52


Post by: flandarz


I think they just use Smite for it now. Or 'Eadbanga, judging from the flavour text.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:27:35


Post by: Grimskul


I'm more surprised they took out power vomit, though tbf, that's also something that can be covered by smite.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:47:55


Post by: lord_blackfang


It's actually a good thing they're taking out generic attack spells. They are a big annoyance in AoS magic. 1001 ways to cause D3 mortal wounds isn't an efficient use of rulebook space.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/22 23:55:57


Post by: Grimskul


 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's actually a good thing they're taking out generic attack spells. They are a big annoyance in AoS magic. 1001 ways to cause D3 mortal wounds isn't an efficient use of rulebook space.


True. I was sort of surprised they didn't do the same thing to smite as they did to arcane bolt, where instead of limiting its casting to one per hero phase, to becoming progressively harder to cast like smite. That way you don't need all the different mortal wound spell variants for each faction.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 00:14:51


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I see little point discussing in this 'tactics' thread if you're just gong to offhand dismiss other people's opinions because they are different to your own.

Ok, let's take on each of your arguments one by one.
Snazzwagons, as stated above, have a far greater potential threat range when compared to KBBs

While this is technically true, staying at that range makes the Snazzwagon a not worth its points at all and and almost exactly as shooty as the squig buggy (but still 40 points less). It's killing 3 GEQ, 2 Marines or deals 1 damage to a vehicle, not a great deal for 100 points. Why should I want that in my list? On the other hand, driving in 6" range to throw the burna bombs and charge almost doubles its damage output.
and they explode on a 4+ which seems to be the majority of the reason you'd take he more expensive Burna bomber.

The burna bommer explodes on a 4+ and does three (!) mortal wounds to all targets within the explosion range. If the snazzwagon had that, it would be right up there with the other buggies. Alas, it does not and therefore spending 1 CP to re-roll that one mortal wound is rarely worth it. Spending those CP on ramming speed on any vehicle of your choice is a more efficient to deal mortal wounds. You also assume that you are hanging back for most of your arguments, making the 4+ a drawback rather than an advantage.
They also have a native -1 to hit so are more tanky at range.

Assuming someone wants to shoot the buggy hanging back and struggling to kill more than a single primaris marine. -1 to hit is an advantage, but not that much on a unit that needs to be in 6" range to justify its points.
Another unit that also has -1 to hit, shoots twice as often, is faster, has higher range, strength and more wounds is the dakkajet - for just 48 points more than the snazzwagon.
I disagreed with you in the last discussion and I disagree with you here (along with Smiley it seems like).

If you don't like our opinions that's fine but basing it on a flawed damage per point against chaff ratio and claiming it as gospel is bogus.

Instead of "I disagree", "you need to accept my opinion" and "your math is flawed" provide some actual arguments to convince me. Provide math for where the snazzwagon actually outperforms other options. Provide battle reports of them doing great things. Provide army lists of people winning tournaments with them.
Provide something at all. Currently I have no reason to believe your opinion is anything but the strong wish to make a model you adore seem like a good competitive option.

Just because you don't like the results of the math doesn't make it wrong. You were the one claiming that the snazzwagon is awesome at clearing chaff, and I proved that to be wrong. Now you claim that calculation to be flawed? That's dishonest at best.
The KBB is better against GEQ, MEQ and vehicles when close up, and when hanging back you basically get worse dakka jets (probably even when not hanging back). Being able to switch from being a bad KBB to being a bad dakkajet at will isn't exactly and advantage either.
As of now, I see no reason to ever take a snazzwagon over other options, therefore players should avoid getting it for purely competitive reasons. Make a compelling argument for them why they should be above red and I will move them.

Something a bit more lighthearted, I actually did the math to compare the snazzwagon to the stompa... yeah, the stompa definitely needs its own category. Two snazzwagons outshoot a stompa vs single wound infantry, nine snazzwagons are better than a stompa against every possible target and still less points.
A key for the ranking system would also be useful.

Awesome-good-ok-situational-avoid? These rainbow tables have been around on dakka longer than me. It's not meant to be scientific data.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 05:43:07


Post by: Nightlord1987


So where do our good ol Warbosses fit in now? After Jumping/tellyporting boyz into the thick, the bosses are left far behind... I don't really feel like going index bike boss route.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 06:14:46


Post by: Sledgio


I haven't managed to play the codex yet (dammit life), and I'm liking the look of Orks. Offensive anti-armour options look great, but what are people finding best to clear screens? Is it still Dakkajets or Bad Moons shootaboyz?

Also I'm pretty sure I want to run at least one of the new buggies for my Evil Sunz, but people keep proving them to be subpar in here? Are any of them worthwhile?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 06:24:41


Post by: Jidmah


 Sledgio wrote:
I haven't managed to play the codex yet (dammit life), and I'm liking the look of Orks. Offensive anti-armour options look great, but what are people finding best to clear screens? Is it still Dakkajets or Bad Moons shootaboyz?

Also I'm pretty sure I want to run at least one of the new buggies for my Evil Sunz, but people keep proving them to be subpar in here? Are any of them worthwhile?


If you are looking for screen clearers, there are dakka jets, flash gits, warbikers, kustom boosta blasta and shoota boyz.
If you are aiming for a thematic evil suns army, maybe get the speed freaks box, both buggies in there are decent and you get warbikes for screen clearing. If you don't need bikes, the buggies are easily found on ebay for roughly the same price as the other ones.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 06:50:46


Post by: tneva82


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So where do our good ol Warbosses fit in now? After Jumping/tellyporting boyz into the thick, the bosses are left far behind... I don't really feel like going index bike boss route.


For me they are battallion HQ fillers. 3 weirdboys, need 1 or 3 HQ still(generally 3). Trike too expensive to spam, mega armour big meks as well. Can't rely on index being available so leaves warbosses. At least 1 tends to stay near lootas and their grots. Keep grot morale, can help with loota morale and of course they can be used to counter attack anything that comes nearby.

But yeah two big change in codex were that morale became actually issue for boyz and warbosses became bit of oddball. I have yet to actually use the advance+charge rule yet with the codex.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 07:22:19


Post by: JawRippa


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.

Unless you are orks


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 07:24:59


Post by: flandarz


Most units have Mob Rule now, short of Grots and Vehicles, so I'm assuming "morale is an issue now" because boy blobz aren't the only viable list anymore.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 08:00:08


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
Most units have Mob Rule now, short of Grots and Vehicles, so I'm assuming "morale is an issue now" because boy blobz aren't the only viable list anymore.


Issue is there's much less boyz and with teleport could even be on different areas. Rather than 5 units side by side you have 2, 3 units. Even if you have 2 units of 30 boyz near what happens when enemy shoots 15 from both as would be smart move? 30 orks total is dirt easy. That's like half the firepower from 2k gunline. 15 dead from both=15 left for both=LD15 for both=d6 casualties for both=2d6 casualties=7 more dies. Oh and less of a worry that you kill up more than there were targets so rather than 30 dead you could kill say 16 and 17 plus morale.... And attacks coming down compared to simply shooting one unit to death goes from 120(one full unit still left) to 69(unit of 12 and 11 so not only less boyz in total but no +1 for numbers). Ergo smart opponent will aim to kill roughly half from 2 units rather than vaporize one squad unless very specific reason exists. And if they are on same area next to each other such reason is less likely to exists than if they were on separate areas(at which point saving one enemy unit by vaporizing unit threatening it and leaving other as bigger threat but around less crucial units could be good trade off). This happened to me all the time in index where enemy shot at two units so that one of them would have no 30 strong mob providing LD so one would generally take extra casualties. With codex as there's no more 5-6 units of 30 having such interlocking protection is much harder. And utilizing tellyporta to attack stuff tends to make it even harder.

Before there was likely 3rd unit so at least one would be on LD30. Or if you had the 3rd unit behind both BOTH had LD30.

And this assuming the 2-3 units deepstrike on same area which of course then means there's less units you can then engage with.

Just look at the lists you see. Much less boyz units. 2-3 units are much less resilient to the morale. Having big damage on 2 units causing failed morale test for both is much more easy than it used to be.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 08:15:32


Post by: flandarz


Yeah, basically what I said. Still, as long as you keep your units up around 10 models, we're still looking better on Leadership than anyone aside from Nidz, so not a huge deal. Sure, we ain't rolling 5-6 FSUs anymore, but that's because we finally have units that can work on a competitive level besides Boy Spam. That's a net positive in my book.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 09:09:27


Post by: JawRippa


 Blackie wrote:

Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.

Whats the gameplan with flashgitz trukk? Get into 24" range, park and proceed to shoot out of the vehicle until it explodes and provides surviving gits with 3+?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 09:11:29


Post by: Blackie


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So where do our good ol Warbosses fit in now? After Jumping/tellyporting boyz into the thick, the bosses are left far behind... I don't really feel like going index bike boss route.


For me they're embarked. I have 2 warbosses with relic melee weapons and thre BWs with rollas. 3 units of 18 boyz and 2 weirdboyz join them. Truck with full squad of nobz (sometimes a weirdboy goes here) and two trukks with 10 bustas and 2 squigs each. Plus gretchins and some mek gunz. There's enough target saturation to let the warbosses assist the boyz and with 10 drops in total I have good odds to get first turn. Oh, they're mostly goffs, so not tons of bodies but the extra hits and S5 mitigate that tipycally, but I know that those boyz+BWs could maybe be more effective if evil sunz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JawRippa wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.

Whats the gameplan with flashgitz trukk? Get into 24" range, park and proceed to shoot out of the vehicle until it explodes and provides surviving gits with 3+?


Well tipycally 4+ and 3+ just for the kaptin plus one re-roll thanks to the runt, which is decent firepower for a 154 points unit that sits on a 64 points transport. I basically have 200ish spared points in my current list that I fill up with with random stuff: it's usually a 10 man squad of nobz + ammo runt in a trukk, which is my favorite choice, or 5-6 tellyported megnaobz , two boosta blastas or 5 flash gitz in a trukk.

I've never tried the freebooterz combo yet since I'm focussing on other kultures at the moment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 11:09:40


Post by: Marklarr


PiñaColada wrote:
 Marklarr wrote:


Just wanted to add that I’m not trying to be gamey with the rules with this, it just seems that’s the way it’s intended and to me a super fluffy waboss wanting to get in on the action first.

They literally state you cannot use drive-by krumpin' in your opponents phase in the FAQ


Sigh! My bad, I didn’t pick up on that when I first read the FAQ.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 11:10:57


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Jidmah wrote:

They also have a native -1 to hit so are more tanky at range.

Assuming someone wants to shoot the buggy hanging back and struggling to kill more than a single primaris marine. -1 to hit is an advantage, but not that much on a unit that needs to be in 6" range to justify its points.
Another unit that also has -1 to hit, shoots twice as often, is faster, has higher range, strength and more wounds is the dakkajet - for just 48 points more than the snazzwagon.


I disagree with this.
Whilst the dakkajet does seem like a better choice at first, it does have some drawbacks.

For starters, its a flyer.
Which means that it can't take objectives, it doesn't count on being on the table, and its subject to that weird movement rule where it doesn't go exactly where you want it to go.
The extra range is meaningless if you have to move 20" a turn, so its more like 16" range.
The Dakkajet is not a speedfreak, so you cannot use the fume clouds strat to increase it to -2 to hit.

You can take objectives with the snazzwagon, you can decide where it can go and you can just hang back and shoot for a bit, and you can use the strat on it.
In terms of performance, the snazzwagon would perform better against T4 single wound models with its main gun than the rivet cannon, and it has a big shoota too, adding a bit more to its ranged firepower.
Since it has more shots it has a better chance of proccing ddd as well.

In contrast, most of the damage from the KBB comes from short range; yes, you have a rivet cannon, but you really want to use those burna exhausts. Which means getting in close, which could be risky.

Still not sure about the squigbuggy though. I suspect it might be better in practice than on paper, but the price isn't great.
It would have been nice if it had a support ability. Like, its squiglaunchers could remove overwatch or something.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 13:44:02


Post by: deffrekka


I have run 3 SJDs and 2 MTSJs in all my lists so far and they have been my stars of the list.

So far I have found that the SJDs out-perform the MTSJs at an AT role due to the Deathskulls re-rolls for the kustom shokk rifle.

What i tend to do is fire a SJD at a vehicle then move on to the next one. This one then shoots another vehicle, and the last one does the same. By wounding each vehicle i then have my turn 1 Da Jumped Badmoon Bustas pop Moar Dakka and Showin' Off and divide the shots between all three targets.

Every game this has killed 3 vehicles turn 1. I have been against Imperial Guard, Deathwatch, Alaitoc Craftworlders and Dark Eldar Coven + Kabal.

So instead my MTSJs have been given anti MEQ duties. They shred medium/heavy infantry with the rokkit kannons and the big shootas go into GEQ chaff lines. The wing missiles i just throw off at random light vehicles/transports and i usually charge with them around turn 2.

I really want to use more Boyz again but my list has none. I am enjoying the crazy high mobility and mass str 8 shooting that my army pumps out that i rarely enter combat unless its with the Warbosses or the MTSJs.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 13:48:30


Post by: Emicrania


How did you guys calculated that the Bonebreaka does more dmg than an G-Naut in CC?
My math (which is squiggy at best, I know) says this:


Vs VEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667
G-Naut small Klaw: 10.667
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs KEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 7.778
G-Naut small Klaw: 8
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs MEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667 (4 models)
G-Naut small Klaw: 11.852 (6 models)
Bonebreaka* :8.333 (4 models)

*9 attacks were used in the Bonebreaka exemple as statistical value : 6+3.



The G-naut is always better and can also shoot a metric ton of dakka. I am definitely biased but I think for 4 CP and 300pts you have a flank destroyer that can back up, shoot and charge again. The bonebreaka is cheaper and can transport 6 models more, sure, but i believe that, if you are using Tellyporta, you don´t want to have that much models waiting T3 before doing anything anyways.





No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:11:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Why is so much stuff out of stock on the GW website? That's weird.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:21:37


Post by: PiñaColada


 Emicrania wrote:
How did you guys calculated that the Bonebreaka does more dmg than an G-Naut in CC?
My math (which is squiggy at best, I know) says this:


Vs VEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667
G-Naut small Klaw: 10.667
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs KEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 7.778
G-Naut small Klaw: 8
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs MEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667 (4 models)
G-Naut small Klaw: 11.852 (6 models)
Bonebreaka* :8.333 (4 models)

*9 attacks were used in the Bonebreaka exemple as statistical value : 6+3.



The G-naut is always better and can also shoot a metric ton of dakka. I am definitely biased but I think for 4 CP and 300pts you have a flank destroyer that can back up, shoot and charge again. The bonebreaka is cheaper and can transport 6 models more, sure, but i believe that, if you are using Tellyporta, you don´t want to have that much models waiting T3 before doing anything anyways.

Couple of things..
First off, what's VEQ & KEQ?
Secondly, the staistical value you should calculate at is 9.5 attacks for the bonebreaka strictly speaking.
And lastly, and most importantly, they're talking about it being better per point - not per unit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:33:11


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Venom Equivalent and Knight Equivalent, I'm assuming.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:35:35


Post by: Jidmah


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For starters, its a flyer.
Which means that it can't take objectives, it doesn't count on being on the table, and its subject to that weird movement rule where it doesn't go exactly where you want it to go.

True. But, due to the fly rule and high movement speed it can go places where where snazzwagon could not - like right next to an enemy character.
In Maelstrom games I can see using a buggy to drive to objectives you want to capture - I just don't see the snazzwagon being that buggy. I'd rather have a KMB or a scrapjet that can actually clear that objective should it be occupied by something. A snazzwagon has almost no chance of getting something like ten guardsmen, pox walkers or cultists off the objective. It's also just a single model, so you would lose the objective as soon as some bored dedicated transport decides to sit within 3" of that same objective.

The extra range is meaningless if you have to move 20" a turn, so its more like 16" range.

16" is the absolute worst case, assuming that need to move away from it in a straight line. In any other situation, thedakka jet will outrange a snazzwagon.
From my experience of playing dakkajets with those weird movement rules since the beginnen of 6th edition, a dakkajet tends to have at least half the table in range, if you want to shoot something you can.

The Dakkajet is not a speedfreak, so you cannot use the fume clouds strat to increase it to -2 to hit.

I'm not sure if I ever wanted to do this. You need to pop the stratagem before any shooting is announced, and the enemy can then just ignore the buggy due to its low damage output.

You can take objectives with the snazzwagon, you can decide where it can go and you can just hang back and shoot for a bit, and you can use the strat on it.
In terms of performance, the snazzwagon would perform better against T4 single wound models with its main gun than the rivet cannon, and it has a big shoota too, adding a bit more to its ranged firepower.

It kills 2.11 marines or 3.55 ork boyz. That's above average, but not great.

Since it has more shots it has a better chance of proccing ddd as well.

DDD damage increase is linear of 16.6% damage, which means that it will never help a model pull ahead of another. A better shooting unit will always benefit more from DDD than a weaker one, independent from BS, number of shots, strength, AP and damage. The only thing that benefits less from DDD are auto-hitting weapons.

In contrast, most of the damage from the KBB comes from short range; yes, you have a rivet cannon, but you really want to use those burna exhausts. Which means getting in close, which could be risky.

The snazzwagon almost doubles its damage when you throw burna bombs and charge your target. Why wouldn't you want to get close with that as well?
On top if that, the KBB has auto-hitting overwatch and the potential of causing mortal wounds on the charge, of course I would want to get close - it does more than three times the damage than a snazzwagon hanging back. The snazzwagon would need to survive for three turns to have the same impact.

In general, I understand your (and englishman's) argument - but that basically boils down to "it's a fast vehicle with a gun that doesn't suck". There are better options to hang back and shoot. There are better options to clear chaff. There are better options to grab objective. It excels at none of these disciplines, and WH40k in general rewards specialization over being a generalist.

However - being a fast vehicle with a gun that doesn't suck is definitely better that other stuff in the red category. Moving it up to yellow.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:53:05


Post by: crzylgs


Hope we can now move on from the Snazzwagon debate, because it truly isn't good enough to warrant so much screen space. Very diplomatic of you Jidmah to move it up to yellow


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 14:55:02


Post by: Emicrania


PiñaColada wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
Spoiler:
How did you guys calculated that the Bonebreaka does more dmg than an G-Naut in CC?
My math (which is squiggy at best, I know) says this:


Vs VEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667
G-Naut small Klaw: 10.667
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs KEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 7.778
G-Naut small Klaw: 8
Bonebreaka* : 6.667

Vs MEQ:
G-Naut Big Klaw : 11.667 (4 models)
G-Naut small Klaw: 11.852 (6 models)
Bonebreaka* :8.333 (4 models)

*9 attacks were used in the Bonebreaka exemple as statistical value : 6+3.



The G-naut is always better and can also shoot a metric ton of dakka. I am definitely biased but I think for 4 CP and 300pts you have a flank destroyer that can back up, shoot and charge again. The bonebreaka is cheaper and can transport 6 models more, sure, but i believe that, if you are using Tellyporta, you don´t want to have that much models waiting T3 before doing anything anyways.

Couple of things..
First off, what's VEQ & KEQ?
Secondly, the staistical value you should calculate at is 9.5 attacks for the bonebreaka strictly speaking.
And lastly, and most importantly, they're talking about it being better per point - not per unit.



VEQ: Veichle Equivalent
KEQ: Knight Equivalent

You are right about 9.5 as statistical; even if they are still worst off, and point per point comparison. I was just pointing out that saying that A Bonebreaka hit harder than a G-Naut it is not true. If you compare point per point, mostDEFF.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:07:31


Post by: Jidmah


I thought it was Rhino Equivalent?

I'm also curious what saves the Knight Equivalent is supposed to have.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:08:06


Post by: greggles


Gork kills about 6 primaris marines in CC. Bone breaker with average # of attacks kills 4, but costs half the points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:11:17


Post by: PiñaColada


I'm guessing that VEQ is T7 3+ save and KEQ is T8 3+ save then?

The gorkanaut is not dependent on charges to keep being effective and degrades less drastically IMO but it's just tough to not like the bonebreaka. It's such an overachiever in regards to damage. 12 transport slots and still being cheap is a great deal


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:15:30


Post by: Emicrania


VEQ= T7 10W 3+
KEQ= T8 25W 3+ 5++

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the bonebreaka, I just love the G-Naut more, even if it is less point effective (effective or competitive?). I would like to adore the Stompa also but they need to shave off at least 250 points IMHO.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:24:10


Post by: PiñaColada


 Emicrania wrote:
VEQ= T7 10W 3+
KEQ= T8 25W 3+ 5++

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the bonebreaka, I just love the G-Naut more, even if it is less point effective (effective or competitive?). I would like to adore the Stompa also but they need to shave off at least 250 points IMHO.

I feel ya, I personally always loved deffrollas so I'm super stoked about the bonebreakas. But then again, my orks are mad max themed and a giant rolling pin of death feels very MM. I still feel like the G-nauts are quite good. You can deepstrike them and they also have 'ere we go so that (maybe with ramming speed) makes for a very reliable charge


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:27:28


Post by: crzylgs


PiñaColada wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
VEQ= T7 10W 3+
KEQ= T8 25W 3+ 5++

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the bonebreaka, I just love the G-Naut more, even if it is less point effective (effective or competitive?). I would like to adore the Stompa also but they need to shave off at least 250 points IMHO.

I feel ya, I personally always loved deffrollas so I'm super stoked about the bonebreakas. But then again, my orks are mad max themed and a giant rolling pin of death feels very MM. I still feel like the G-nauts are quite good. You can deepstrike them and they also have 'ere we go so that (maybe with ramming speed) makes for a very reliable charge


Best part is you can absolutely have both. A few Bonebreakas deployed (probably with some additional krumpiness inside) bearing down on enemy with G-naut T2 Tellyporta charge. That is a lot of nasty high toughness targets!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:27:43


Post by: Emicrania


That s how I play em and they are brutal.

But Kunning also


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 15:28:44


Post by: koooaei


Gork has another huge drawback. It has a base.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 16:25:05


Post by: greggles


Since you measure from the hull on the battlewagon, it can engage things that are off the ground. The gork just stares at the figures and makes a sad face, then gets hit with four fusions.

Spoiler:


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 16:33:52


Post by: Emicrania


I really hate that rule....


Which is why i play 20-30 StormBoyz


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 17:17:17


Post by: BaconCatBug


I mean, RaW there is no need to include a base on any model.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 17:36:55


Post by: Vineheart01


yeah thats probably one of the bigger stupid rules in 8th.
Big things cant attack something on a higher level that they are actually TALLER than, because the base isnt up there.

a Gork should be able to swing at something 6" off the ground....


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 17:46:27


Post by: Emicrania


 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah thats probably one of the bigger stupid rules in 8th.
Big things cant attack something on a higher level that they are actually TALLER than, because the base isnt up there.

a Gork should be able to swing at something 6" off the ground....



THAT. A MILLION TIMES


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 17:47:16


Post by: Grimskul


Yeah...that's something my group personally house rules, its pretty ridiculous to see a towering vehicle being completely neutered by a floor.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 17:48:11


Post by: Frowbakk


 Marklarr wrote:
 Frowbakk wrote:
Ork Triple Battalion 1999 points, Battle Forged: + 3 CP (-3 CP for Extra Gubbinz) 13 CP left after list construction.
Spoiler:


Bad Moon Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 772 points [Re-roll 1’s in Shooting Phase]

.120 HQ Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord: Da Best Armor Dere Iz: 4++), Supa Cybork Body: 5+++

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warhpead w/ Da Jump, Fist of Gork (Buff Da Warlord)

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Grot Shields for Lootas, expect every single one of them to die in your opponents first turn)

.170 HEAVY 10 Lootas (Turn 1: 1 CP to Mob Up with other Lootas AFTER Finkin Kap deployed to get 6+ CP Farm’n)

.255 HEAVY 15 Lootas

[b]Evil Sunz Battalion[/b] (+5 CP) 907 points [+1” to Charges, +1” to Move (2” iff Speed Freeks)]

. 91 HQ Warboss on Warbike (Index) w/ Big Choppa = Headwoppa’s Killchoppa

.120 HQ Zhadsnark Da Ripper (Forge World) w/ Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

.215 TROOP 30 Shoota Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 1: Da Jump’d/3CP to Unlimited Greed Tide ‘recycle’ in Turn 2)

.223 TROOP 30 Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 2: Da Jump’d after Mob Up)

. 75 TROOP 10 Choppa Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, Tankbusta Bomb (Turn 2: 1 CP to Mob Up w/above)

.103 ELITE Painboy on Warbike (Index) w/’Urty Syringe, Power Klaw (1 CP to throw a Medi-Squig at Warlord)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (One to fly ahead with 3 Bikes & a Trike to keep them untargetable)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (Also a good source to buff Mob Up’d Choppa Boyz with Loot It! later in the game)

Blood Axe Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 320 points [Counts as in Cover > 18”, may Shoot OR Charge after Falling Back]

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts], Finkin Kap: I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (CP Farming on a 6+)

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Can’t be used for Grot Shields due to <CLAN> mismatch, therefore Objective Grabbers)

. 93 HEAVY Mek Gunz: 3x Smasha Kannons


The Evil Suns are there to charge, as supported by their Kulture.

The Bad Moons are there to shoot, as supported by their Kulture (I'll need to get a dice-rolling app to be kind to my opponents).

The Blood Axes are there to be sneaky gits. (Tactics ain’t a breath mint, y’all…)

Spoiler:
Everything should be deployed under a KFF's 5++ protection so no need to waste CP on Prepared Positions even if going second. So much better than trying to improve 6+ saves which can still be whittled away by AP.

For the Evil Sunz Battalion: 3 Bikes & a Trike (OK, so he’s a Bad Moon, but still…) should get off a first turn charge on something, Biker Painboy should keep 'em in combat a little longer. 30 Shoota Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP the next turn where the reappear 'Outflanking' and able to shoot away again. Turn 2 the 10 Choppa Boyz can Mob Up with 30 Choppa Boyz, and get Warpath'd and Da Jump'd into probable charge range of whatever the Bikes & Trike didn't kill and Heroically Intervene into during my opponent's turn.

As for the Bad Moonz, the Big Mek with the KFF is there to hide behind the Choppa Boyz mobs and be untargetable while KFF escorting the Evil Sunz boyz and both Weirdboyz. Good thing KFF's and Psyker shenanigans don't care about <CLAN> mismatches. The Lootas are to find anywhere (preferably in cover) with good lines of fire, Mob Up into a unit of 25 first thing and Dakka ad infinitius, uber alles, ad nauseam.

The Blood Axe Big Mek with the Finkin Kap will cover the Lootas under his KFF umbrella and keep the CP farm going as long as possible. He can also repair the Smasha Guns, and for his graduate studies project in sneaky-gitted-ness; have the Mob Up’d Lootas use Loot It! on a destroyed Smasha Gun, have the Lootas refund the CP for it on a 4+ AND farm the CP on a 6+. Remember the (preferably in cover) from just above? That way the Lootas can get a 4+ regular save to help them stick around even longer once all of those Gretchin have been used up by Grot Shields, so deploy those Smasha Guns nearby.

Extra sneaky git shenanigan-ness: The Deffkilla Wartike can move again at the end of the Shooting Phase (your own, not your opponents… don’t be THAT guy…) with the Stratagem: Drive By Krumpin', but is not allowed to charge. However, as a Character the Defkilla Wartrike may still Heroically Intervene its' way into combat. A loophole in the rules big enough to drive a Defkilla Wartike through, conveniently enough.

Your opponent have an annoying Character buffing nearby units? Consider sniping with Deff Koptas by either moving close enough so that character is the closest target, or by using Ramming Speed and putting some Mortal Wounds on ‘em.

I'm really looking forward to playing Orks.


Im not too sure that the drive by Krumpin strat is worded incorrectly and should be taken as it’s worded. The only oversight probably being, in my opinion, the unit can not charge or heroically intervene this turn. It would just seem strange to me if it was any other way, considering how specific all the other stratagems are with when and how you can use them.......or I’m wrong and it’s a complete oversight by GW


I've had games where my opponent has Heroically Intervened one of his Characters into a unit to get it into close combat, claiming that because it's Heroic Intervention that Overwatch did not apply. I was applying that real-world experience here (although I may have been the victim of Shenanigans on their part).<<<As pointed out below, my opponent did pull the wool over my eyes, gosh darnit!

Straight_Memer wrote:

What’s the point of the blood axes, why not make that battalion mixed so the different units can be used with different strats (such as grots >>> bad moons) otherwise looks pretty good overall, maybe make the killchoppa into the Killa Klaw?

Last question first: I copied the list over where the Deffkilla Wartrike was part of the Evil Sunz clan originally and the Painboy on Bike had the Killa Klaw. I'll probably switch back becuse the Medi-Squig Stratagem doesn't work if there's a <CLAN> mismatch, and buffing the Vehicle Character is more Orky than the 4++/5+++ if he's a Bad Moon Warboss. Still have to convert the model anyway after diving into my bitz boxes.

The Blood Axes are a whole Battalion in order to get the Finkin' Kap and the 6+ CP Farming.

Otherwise I'd throw the Deff Koptas into the mixed Battalion, claim they're Deathskulls and have them get the To Hit/To Wound/Damage re-rolls (and arm them with Kustom Mega Blastas while I was at it.)

Or I'd include MANz which are Snakebites in order to get the 6+++ FNP added on top.

I have serious doubt that a mixed Battalion is supposed to work like that. The way I've read the rule on page 124 of the Ork Codex is that unless the entire Detachment is of a specific Clan (Freebooters being the called-out exception to this rule) then the entire Detachment does not get benefits of ANY Orky Kulture.

Although I could see the argument that the individual units from a mixed Detachment could benefit from the Clan-specifc Stratagems, they would not get the benefits of the Clan-specific Kulture, and without the Kulture for the Blood Axes, there ain't no Finkin' Kap and the 6+ CP Farming.

I'd rather have the CP farming in order to keep feeding CP to the Mob Up'd lootas
>


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 18:28:12


Post by: xlDuke


Indeed you don't get your Clan Kulture in a mixed detachment but you do still get access to stratagems, relics and warlord traits. You don't lose the Clan keyword, you just don't get the benefits of the Kultures. I can see how it might sometimes be useful to have a mixed Clan detachment but probably not something I'd do very often at all for no reason other than personal preference.

I'm not sure going for a CP farm is that good for us, we can quite readily have a Brigade, Battalion and Spearhead etc or three Battalions and in those cases potentially getting a command point a turn won't make much difference. Sadly I just don't see much use for Blood Axes when compared to what we can do with the other Clans. That's not really a complaint, we're just pretty spoiled for choice.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 18:55:25


Post by: Jidmah


You can only do heroic interventions during your opponent's turn. No heroic intervening during your own turn.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 20:58:41


Post by: Quackzo


I was just toying around with the idea of Supa-Skorcha Big Trakks filled with Flash Gitz, all Freebootas.
The intention was the Supa-Skorchas would kill a unit and trigger the Kultur. To clarify, the Kultur doesn't directly affect the Flash Gitz while embarked, but indirectly does so as their transport receives a +1 modifier which is carried over to the Flash Gitz via the open topped rule.
After looking at the points cost of this I realised a big trakk is 20 points more expensive then a battlewagon, before wargear.
I don't want to give up on the idea so I'll experiment with it in a friendly game and see how it performs.
I'm expecting it to put in some real work but the inevitable destruction of the big trakk will hurt. If Chapter Approved drops the points cost of the Big Trakk more in line with other Ork transports then I could see this being a more enticing idea.

To follow this up, has anyone else here been running Freeboota Flash Gitz? What has been working for you? What has not? Fluff wise they're one of my favourites, so I'd love to make them work in an army.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 22:35:59


Post by: lord_blackfang


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why is so much stuff out of stock on the GW website? That's weird.


It appears SAGs, Mek Gunz, Trukks, 'Nauts and Deff Dreads have sold out for some reason.

Also the Stompa. That one's weird, I'll give you that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 22:54:47


Post by: Straight_Memer


Spoiler:
 Frowbakk wrote:
 Marklarr wrote:
 Frowbakk wrote:
Ork Triple Battalion 1999 points, Battle Forged: + 3 CP (-3 CP for Extra Gubbinz) 13 CP left after list construction.
[spoiler]

Bad Moon Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 772 points [Re-roll 1’s in Shooting Phase]

.120 HQ Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord: Da Best Armor Dere Iz: 4++), Supa Cybork Body: 5+++

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warhpead w/ Da Jump, Fist of Gork (Buff Da Warlord)

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts]

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Grot Shields for Lootas, expect every single one of them to die in your opponents first turn)

.170 HEAVY 10 Lootas (Turn 1: 1 CP to Mob Up with other Lootas AFTER Finkin Kap deployed to get 6+ CP Farm’n)

.255 HEAVY 15 Lootas

[b]Evil Sunz Battalion[/b] (+5 CP) 907 points [+1” to Charges, +1” to Move (2” iff Speed Freeks)]

. 91 HQ Warboss on Warbike (Index) w/ Big Choppa = Headwoppa’s Killchoppa

.120 HQ Zhadsnark Da Ripper (Forge World) w/ Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

.215 TROOP 30 Shoota Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 1: Da Jump’d/3CP to Unlimited Greed Tide ‘recycle’ in Turn 2)

.223 TROOP 30 Choppa Boyz, Power Klaw Nob, 3x Tankbusta Bombz (Turn 2: Da Jump’d after Mob Up)

. 75 TROOP 10 Choppa Boyz, Big Choppa Nob, Tankbusta Bomb (Turn 2: 1 CP to Mob Up w/above)

.103 ELITE Painboy on Warbike (Index) w/’Urty Syringe, Power Klaw (1 CP to throw a Medi-Squig at Warlord)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (One to fly ahead with 3 Bikes & a Trike to keep them untargetable)

. 40 FAST Deff Kopta w Twin Big Shootas (Also a good source to buff Mob Up’d Choppa Boyz with Loot It! later in the game)

Blood Axe Battalion (+5 CP)(-1 CP for Warphead) 320 points [Counts as in Cover > 18”, may Shoot OR Charge after Falling Back]

. 62 HQ Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath

. 75 HQ Big Mek (Index) w/ Choppa, Kustom Force Field [20pts], Finkin Kap: I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (CP Farming on a 6+)

. 90 TROOP 3x 10 Grots (Can’t be used for Grot Shields due to <CLAN> mismatch, therefore Objective Grabbers)

. 93 HEAVY Mek Gunz: 3x Smasha Kannons


The Evil Suns are there to charge, as supported by their Kulture.

The Bad Moons are there to shoot, as supported by their Kulture (I'll need to get a dice-rolling app to be kind to my opponents).

The Blood Axes are there to be sneaky gits. (Tactics ain’t a breath mint, y’all…)

Spoiler:
Everything should be deployed under a KFF's 5++ protection so no need to waste CP on Prepared Positions even if going second. So much better than trying to improve 6+ saves which can still be whittled away by AP.

For the Evil Sunz Battalion: 3 Bikes & a Trike (OK, so he’s a Bad Moon, but still…) should get off a first turn charge on something, Biker Painboy should keep 'em in combat a little longer. 30 Shoota Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP the next turn where the reappear 'Outflanking' and able to shoot away again. Turn 2 the 10 Choppa Boyz can Mob Up with 30 Choppa Boyz, and get Warpath'd and Da Jump'd into probable charge range of whatever the Bikes & Trike didn't kill and Heroically Intervene into during my opponent's turn.

As for the Bad Moonz, the Big Mek with the KFF is there to hide behind the Choppa Boyz mobs and be untargetable while KFF escorting the Evil Sunz boyz and both Weirdboyz. Good thing KFF's and Psyker shenanigans don't care about <CLAN> mismatches. The Lootas are to find anywhere (preferably in cover) with good lines of fire, Mob Up into a unit of 25 first thing and Dakka ad infinitius, uber alles, ad nauseam.

The Blood Axe Big Mek with the Finkin Kap will cover the Lootas under his KFF umbrella and keep the CP farm going as long as possible. He can also repair the Smasha Guns, and for his graduate studies project in sneaky-gitted-ness; have the Mob Up’d Lootas use Loot It! on a destroyed Smasha Gun, have the Lootas refund the CP for it on a 4+ AND farm the CP on a 6+. Remember the (preferably in cover) from just above? That way the Lootas can get a 4+ regular save to help them stick around even longer once all of those Gretchin have been used up by Grot Shields, so deploy those Smasha Guns nearby.

Extra sneaky git shenanigan-ness: The Deffkilla Wartike can move again at the end of the Shooting Phase (your own, not your opponents… don’t be THAT guy…) with the Stratagem: Drive By Krumpin', but is not allowed to charge. However, as a Character the Defkilla Wartrike may still Heroically Intervene its' way into combat. A loophole in the rules big enough to drive a Defkilla Wartike through, conveniently enough.

Your opponent have an annoying Character buffing nearby units? Consider sniping with Deff Koptas by either moving close enough so that character is the closest target, or by using Ramming Speed and putting some Mortal Wounds on ‘em.

I'm really looking forward to playing Orks.


Im not too sure that the drive by Krumpin strat is worded incorrectly and should be taken as it’s worded. The only oversight probably being, in my opinion, the unit can not charge or heroically intervene this turn. It would just seem strange to me if it was any other way, considering how specific all the other stratagems are with when and how you can use them.......or I’m wrong and it’s a complete oversight by GW


I've had games where my opponent has Heroically Intervened one of his Characters into a unit to get it into close combat, claiming that because it's Heroic Intervention that Overwatch did not apply. I was applying that real-world experience here (although I may have been the victim of Shenanigans on their part).

Straight_Memer wrote:

What’s the point of the blood axes, why not make that battalion mixed so the different units can be used with different strats (such as grots >>> bad moons) otherwise looks pretty good overall, maybe make the killchoppa into the Killa Klaw?

Last question first: I copied the list over where the Deffkilla Wartrike was part of the Evil Sunz clan originally and the Painboy on Bike had the Killa Klaw. I'll probably switch back becuse the Medi-Squig Stratagem doesn't work if there's a <CLAN> mismatch, and buffing the Vehicle Character is more Orky than the 4++/5+++ if he's a Bad Moon Warboss. Still have to convert the model anyway after diving into my bitz boxes.

The Blood Axes are a whole Battalion in order to get the Finkin' Kap and the 6+ CP Farming.

Otherwise I'd throw the Deff Koptas into the mixed Battalion, claim they're Deathskulls and have them get the To Hit/To Wound/Damage re-rolls (and arm them with Kustom Mega Blastas while I was at it.)

Or I'd include MANz which are Snakebites in order to get the 6+++ FNP added on top.

I have serious doubt that a mixed Battalion is supposed to work like that. The way I've read the rule on page 124 of the Ork Codex is that unless the entire Detachment is of a specific Clan (Freebooters being the called-out exception to this rule) then the entire Detachment does not get benefits of ANY Orky Kulture.

Although I could see the argument that the individual units from a mixed Detachment could benefit from the Clan-specifc Stratagems, they would not get the benefits of the Clan-specific Kulture, and without the Kulture for the Blood Axes, there ain't no Finkin' Kap and the 6+ CP Farming.

I'd rather have the CP farming in order to keep feeding CP to the Mob Up'd lootas


————————————————————Formatting Error —————————————————————
Yeah, I didn’t mean for you to use the mixed battalion for multiple cultures, but rather so you can use different strategems on different units. So something like this

Wierdboy <Evil Suns>
Big Mek w/ KFF <Blood Axes> Finkin’ cap
Grots x3 <Bad Moons>
Mek Guns x3 <Bad Moons> (This one doesn’t actually matter what keyword it has as strats dont affect Gretchen)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:13:43


Post by: SemperMortis


Boyz: From Green to Teal or whatever the hell color that is

Boyz got an alost 17% increase in price and gained 1 tankbusta bomb per 10 models. Everything else they gained is either army wide or requires CP to gain. The Snakesbites and Deffskullz klan boosts boyz to about where they would be in terms of durability as they were when they were 6ppm and the other klan traits don't even address durability at all...well maybe Evil sunz because increased speed is a level of durability all its own.Dakkax3 is roughly a 17% increase in shooting...so again equal to the points increase. point for point boyz are less durable and less choppy than before and in my opinion that is a nerf. Point being that they are good, but they went from being spammed in mass to being taken as 1 or 2 off units and instead relying on grotz to be our CP battery for our units that require CP to function. (lootas).

Kommandos They gained a tankbusta bomb and +1 to wound against units in cover. They lost quite some options if index is not available, so they are basically deep-striking boyz that don't generate CP.
?????

I'll give you they aren't green because they are basically slightly more expensive boyz but they are certainly better than 3rd tier. For starters you can use index to equip them the same as they were, they gained a Tankbusta bomb (which for them is actually decent) they are now more deadly than ever against units in cover (wounding everything except T8 on 4+ or better) but even more importantly, they are damned good at their primary mission now of tying up enemy backfield units and getting their charges off (Not only does Evil sunz make them great but the new rules for Ere we go almost guarantee a charge goes off) Plus if you want to fill out a brigrade 40pts for 4 Kommandos and a Kommando Nob is pretty damned good if for no other reason than dropping them turn 3 on an objective and getting 4+ cover saves while they cap an objective, becoming decently tough to shift.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:22:03


Post by: TedNugent


SemperMortis wrote:
Boyz: From Green to Teal or whatever the hell color that is

Boyz got an alost 17% increase in price and gained 1 tankbusta bomb per 10 models. Everything else they gained is either army wide or requires CP to gain. The Snakesbites and Deffskullz klan boosts boyz to about where they would be in terms of durability as they were when they were 6ppm and the other klan traits don't even address durability at all...well maybe Evil sunz because increased speed is a level of durability all its own.Dakkax3 is roughly a 17% increase in shooting...so again equal to the points increase. point for point boyz are less durable and less choppy than before and in my opinion that is a nerf. Point being that they are good, but they went from being spammed in mass to being taken as 1 or 2 off units and instead relying on grotz to be our CP battery for our units that require CP to function. (lootas).

Kommandos They gained a tankbusta bomb and +1 to wound against units in cover. They lost quite some options if index is not available, so they are basically deep-striking boyz that don't generate CP.
?????

I'll give you they aren't green because they are basically slightly more expensive boyz but they are certainly better than 3rd tier. For starters you can use index to equip them the same as they were, they gained a Tankbusta bomb (which for them is actually decent) they are now more deadly than ever against units in cover (wounding everything except T8 on 4+ or better) but even more importantly, they are damned good at their primary mission now of tying up enemy backfield units and getting their charges off (Not only does Evil sunz make them great but the new rules for Ere we go almost guarantee a charge goes off) Plus if you want to fill out a brigrade 40pts for 4 Kommandos and a Kommando Nob is pretty damned good if for no other reason than dropping them turn 3 on an objective and getting 4+ cover saves while they cap an objective, becoming decently tough to shift.



*Ahem* with deathskulls, you don't NEED boys.

All infantry, including characters, are objective secured.

And why would I get some giant, inflexible, overpriced mob of difficult to transport and CP/support hungry boys anyway?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:34:09


Post by: SemperMortis


Couldn't agree more ted


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:37:28


Post by: hollow one


SemperMortis wrote:
Boyz: From Green to Teal or whatever the hell color that is

Boyz got an alost 17% increase in price and gained 1 tankbusta bomb per 10 models. Everything else they gained is either army wide or requires CP to gain. The Snakesbites and Deffskullz klan boosts boyz to about where they would be in terms of durability as they were when they were 6ppm and the other klan traits don't even address durability at all...well maybe Evil sunz because increased speed is a level of durability all its own.Dakkax3 is roughly a 17% increase in shooting...so again equal to the points increase. point for point boyz are less durable and less choppy than before and in my opinion that is a nerf. Point being that they are good, but they went from being spammed in mass to being taken as 1 or 2 off units and instead relying on grotz to be our CP battery for our units that require CP to function. (lootas).

Kommandos They gained a tankbusta bomb and +1 to wound against units in cover. They lost quite some options if index is not available, so they are basically deep-striking boyz that don't generate CP.
?????

I'll give you they aren't green because they are basically slightly more expensive boyz but they are certainly better than 3rd tier. For starters you can use index to equip them the same as they were, they gained a Tankbusta bomb (which for them is actually decent) they are now more deadly than ever against units in cover (wounding everything except T8 on 4+ or better) but even more importantly, they are damned good at their primary mission now of tying up enemy backfield units and getting their charges off (Not only does Evil sunz make them great but the new rules for Ere we go almost guarantee a charge goes off) Plus if you want to fill out a brigrade 40pts for 4 Kommandos and a Kommando Nob is pretty damned good if for no other reason than dropping them turn 3 on an objective and getting 4+ cover saves while they cap an objective, becoming decently tough to shift.

Nah mate, boyz are our best unit still. Your gut feeling looks wrong in literally the first Ork results we've seen, already. I do agree with the Kommandos point though, they are certainly good for 8ppm with their new rule.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:42:32


Post by: tag8833


Going to a little RTT tomorrow.

My list has 1 evil suns warboss on bike, 2 evil suns warboss on foot. All have PK, and Kustom Shoota (model limitation).

I was thinking Supa Cybork on the bike boss, and Killa Klaw on one foot boss, and Dead Shiney Shoota on the other.

Which one should be my WL, and what trait?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:44:35


Post by: SemperMortis


 hollow one wrote:
Love the first post so far Jid. Without being nitty gritty about each unit ranking, I must insist that Boyz are Green.

I don't care if you think they've gotten worse (they haven't). They are going to be a staple in EVERY competitive list, and already showed up as a minimum of 90 in the first two successful lists this month. Gretchin are not better than boyz IMO, they are useful for a specific purpose (CP and grot shields) and otherwise not a good unit. This is deceptive for new/casual players as they will fill their troops with gretchin and wonder why they are losing every game since they have no boyz.

Gretchin serve a valuable purpose, but Boyz are the meat and bones of an army. This makes Boyz categorically better than Gretchin IMO. Everyone is just sick of running boyz, but that does not prevent them from being one of our best units.

Additionally, their versatility is outstanding: double shooting bad moon shootas, double attacking evil sun choppas, the best deep strike in the game (da jump and 8 inch rerollable), mob up to 40, green tide of traitors, obsec, increased durability with some klans, infinite attacks. All for a mere 7 ppm. Most armies would kill for access to boys and their stratagems.

They are green. Both in skin, and tier.



They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness. Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before. Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns. Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor). And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut. Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it. Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote:
Going to a little RTT tomorrow.

My list has 1 evil suns warboss on bike, 2 evil suns warboss on foot. All have PK, and Kustom Shoota (model limitation).

I was thinking Supa Cybork on the bike boss, and Killa Klaw on one foot boss, and Dead Shiney Shoota on the other.

Which one should be my WL, and what trait?


Make warboss on bike take the relic klaw. But make your warlord one of them on foot because your warbiker boss is a suicide unit. Supa Cybork is meh at best, Id save the CP or take something different. I kind of like The redder armor on a Big mek or regular mek in a Bonecrusha that teleports turn 2. Makes it not only good at CC but also a wicked huge distraction carnifex.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:46:42


Post by: BaconCatBug


Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:49:40


Post by: flandarz


Endless Green Tide is a great Strat for Boyz, as long as you can manage to hold onto a few of then into your turn.

The stat block for the Boyz is unchanged from index to Codex. The got a 1ppm increase in price. I assume when you say "worse" you mean their price efficiency, but they're still the same Boyz. Unless you're running Speed Freekz or some other list that relies on high mobility, you're gonna be including at least 1 FSU in your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Supra Cybork combines real well with Bad Moonz Trait for improving the tankiness of your WL, so don't discount it entirely.

Probably my favorite Relic is the Lucky Stikk though. Turns your HQ into a Banner Nob.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:51:59


Post by: SemperMortis


 flandarz wrote:
Endless Green Tide is a great Strat for Boyz, as long as you can manage to hold onto a few of then into your turn.

The stat block for the Boyz is unchanged from index to Codex. The got a 1ppm increase in price. I assume when you say "worse" you mean their price efficiency, but they're still the same Boyz. Unless you're running Speed Freekz or some other list that relies on high mobility, you're gonna be including at least 1 FSU in your list.


Efficiency of course. 40k runs on unit efficiency, and boyz just took a 12% cut in efficiency in my opinion. (6% because of choppiness and 6% for durability)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:53:48


Post by: BaconCatBug


That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/23 23:55:11


Post by: flandarz


Oh, no doubt. Just saying they're still gonna feature in most lists. They just ain't gonna be the stars of those lists no more (unless you roll Skarboyz. But that's a whole different thing).


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:04:44


Post by: SemperMortis


 BaconCatBug wrote:
That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.


Exactly, I wouldn't put them in the same category as weirdboyz or warboss on warbike. They are still good (teal) but they aren't a YOU MUST TAKE unit anymore. My competitive list is down to 60 boyz and I am seriously debating cutting them and saving 360pts and taking another 20 grotz instead. Than using those 360pts for something even better.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:06:08


Post by: flandarz


I'd definitely put Skarboyz in green. That S5 goes a long way. Normal Boyz? Yeah, I think real is fine.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:08:18


Post by: SemperMortis


 flandarz wrote:
I'd definitely put Skarboyz in green. That S5 goes a long way. Normal Boyz? Yeah, I think real is fine.


Skarboyz...required to be goffs, require you to spend 1cp per unit....nope. Goffs aren't remotely competitive compared to Evil Sunz. turn 2 you can get an 8' charge with Evil Sunz which just about guarantees a success. On top of that, Goffs are basically useless except for boyz and as mentioned...they got worse point for point.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:15:56


Post by: flandarz


The Kulture and Warlors Trait have much to be desired, true, but the Relic is pretty good and 1 CP ain't much when we're dropping 2 to shoot again. 5S means you can throw your Boyz up against T8 with far left fear than before.

And Goff is good for any MSU you plan to throw into CC. Got Dreadz? If you got em decked out in Klawz and Sawz, you're getting an extra attack on average. MSU Stormboyz? Still solid. I think Goff is pretty decent for any CC unit that already has good movement.

I'll agree that Evil Sunz and Bad Moonz are gonna be our go-to Kultures, but don't discount those extra attacks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:37:47


Post by: hollow one


I'm going to spend a bit of time breaking what you've said down, alright?
SemperMortis wrote:
They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness.

You can now deepstrike boyz, making them invulnerable. And you can make them attack twice, or have exploding 6's in melee. You can also resurrect and teleport up to 200 points of boyz for 3CP.
SemperMortis wrote:
Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before.

Boyz can now DDD at 5+ and shoot twice while rerolling 1s. They are now our best screen killing unit, only dakkajet compares in output per point. If I exclude kultures and stratagems, sure boyz are not as good at shooting...... but we have kultures and stratagems? And they are amazing.

SemperMortis wrote:
Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns.

Evil Sunz boys will have more across the field attacking faster thanks to Teleporta. This will certainly increase their choppiness because more will survive the footslog. But in general, I will concede this point (even though we have attack twice), they are certainly worse in melee than they used to be (by a margin of 15% I suppose), but they are still the best 7ppm melee troop unit in the game.

SemperMortis wrote:
Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor).

I think this is where you underestimate boyz. There are stratagems that exclusively impact Boyz, like green tide, and others that make boyz exceptional, like Teleporta and Get Stuck In. You are clearly under-valuing stratagems. Focusing on bad stratagems like 'Ard Boyz is a clever misdirection, but it does not help your argument IMO since every outstanding stratagem we have target Boyz. Stratagems are the reason why boyz are better, and because you deny this fact you think Boyz are worse (more expensive for no additional benefits in the dataslate), I actually see your point of view, but it is flawed.

SemperMortis wrote:
And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut.

This is a good point, outside of green tide of course. I would argue that just because I can use a stratagem on something else, that does not make the boy worse, it just makes the stratagem very good. I think in particular why Boyz are better than a morkanaut or some tankbustas is because boyz can be the target of ALL of our good stratagems and spells, and when you synergise you are getting something out of boyz that you can not get out of a Morkanaut. For example. Mob up, Warpath, Da Jump, Get Stuck In. Or Mob up, Da Jump, More Dakka, Showin Off. That combination on boyz is just so much better when you use them all on the same unit. I can't really generate the same advantage if I use that stuff on a Morkanaut. Sure, Lootas accept some of these combinations better, I agree, but that just makes Lootas really really good, and does not detract from how good Boyz are.

SemperMortis wrote:
Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it.

Once again, it's the combination and verstaility that makes boyz better here. For example, deathskull boyz: Mob Up, Warpath, Da Jump, Wreckers, Get stuck in. This is roughly 350 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 5. And your nob gets to reroll his weapon. With only 300 points of boyz, I think that knight might even die (ideal situation I know, but my point is clear). But MORE importantly, Double attacks is 6"+ movement, a good general will use this to consolidate into units and take hostages, and it is very hard to deploy well enough to stop this stratagem from being very effective. One 30 man squad that landed a charge after Teleporta will completely surround an army with Get Stuck In, in a way that you simply can not to without attacking twice. You can do all sorts of tricks with this, it is not a double damage stratagem all the time, sometimes it protects your boyz with hostages or turns off their tanks.

SemperMortis wrote:
Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.

I addressed the Mob up point already, it doesn't make boyz worse than they were in the index, they are obviously better. Obsec becomes better when I can string a 40 man blob across the field and guarantee a hostage with Get Stuck In. It becomes a lot better in fact, game winning better. And yes Deffskullz do grant that to nobz or whatever else, but the reason boyz are STILL better is that you can do this without having to be lucky blue boyz, you can do it as Goffs or Evil Suns, or even Bad moons and still have the kulture your army needs to win.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.
I agree with this, I think 90 boyz is going to be pretty standard moving forward. However, it's certainly possible 200+ boyz is still good, but no ones going to play it because we have options now and its exhausting to play that many foot sloggers.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:40:29


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I know that burna boyz are considered bottom tier, but if one absolutely wants to use them, I could see deathskulls working well with them.
They are the second cheapest of the elite options, barring characters, so you can have more of them compared to other choices. As they are infantry they can benefit from "zog off dis is ours"
Only Kommandos are cheaper, and they have less offensive capability (unless you pay for it).

Whilst the burnas don't have much to gain from the rerolls, the KMB has a lot to gain from it. Unlike lootas, KMB are actually useful here as the spanna isn't as overpriced and you will be in range to use it.

So you can run MSU deathskulls burnas to throw out KMB bolts, or just go nuts and take a blob of them to try to steal an objective and really annoy your opponent.

Now, does that mean they still aren't bottom tier? Probably not. They still can't ignore cover for some stupid reason, and their burny dance ability doesn't seem to work that well. But they do have a use.

Is it me or is the KBB undercosted? I mean, for its load out, abilities and statline, it shouldn't be 100 points.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:43:06


Post by: hollow one


SemperMortis wrote:
Exactly, I wouldn't put them in the same category as weirdboyz or warboss on warbike. They are still good (teal) but they aren't a YOU MUST TAKE unit anymore. My competitive list is down to 60 boyz and I am seriously debating cutting them and saving 360pts and taking another 20 grotz instead. Than using those 360pts for something even better.
Renegades Open winner brought 90 boyz. 600 points of a 2000 list in one unit. Probably close to our best unit.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 00:58:07


Post by: Grimskul


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I know that burna boyz are considered bottom tier, but if one absolutely wants to use them, I could see deathskulls working well with them.
They are the second cheapest of the elite options, barring characters, so you can have more of them compared to other choices. As they are infantry they can benefit from "zog off dis is ours"
Only Kommandos are cheaper, and they have less offensive capability (unless you pay for it).

Whilst the burnas don't have much to gain from the rerolls, the KMB has a lot to gain from it. Unlike lootas, KMB are actually useful here as the spanna isn't as overpriced and you will be in range to use it.

So you can run MSU deathskulls burnas to throw out KMB bolts, or just go nuts and take a blob of them to try to steal an objective and really annoy your opponent.

Now, does that mean they still aren't bottom tier? Probably not. They still can't ignore cover for some stupid reason, and the KBB is probably better overall. But they do have a use.
Speaking of KBB, is it me or is it undercosted? I mean, for its load out, abilities and statline, it shouldn't be 100 points.


Honestly, while that is a great alternative way to run burna boyz, I thought they would be best as Blood Axes. Assuming you want to run them in a trukk for drive by burnings, since both the Trukk and Burna Boyz have the Blood Axes Kultur, it means an enemy love tapping the vehicle with chaff or normal units can't negate you from just falling back and shooting again with the burnas. Even for when the burnas get stuck in themselves, having the option to fall back and burninate a unit or charging them again to attack first isn't something to be dismissed.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:03:42


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:09:36


Post by: Grimskul


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.


Certainly not optimal, but burna boyz aren't exactly one to begin with. Unfortunately, we have much more cost-effective and damaging options available via the kustom boosta blasta and the supa-skorcha big trakk if we want flamer drive-bys, hell, a Biker Boss/Mek with the Bad Moon relic is probably a better choice.

I feel like burna boyz should have either D6 shots per burna or cost 9 points to be considered competitive. Throw in a stratagem where they get +1 to wound against vehicles in CC, and they might be worth taking.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:13:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Grimskul wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.


Certainly not optimal, but burna boyz aren't exactly one to begin with. Unfortunately, we have much more cost-effective and damaging options available via the kustom boosta blasta and the supa-skorcha big trakk if we want flamer drive-bys, hell, a Biker Boss/Mek with the Bad Moon relic is probably a better choice.

I feel like burna boyz should have either D6 shots per burna or cost 9 points to be considered competitive. Throw in a stratagem where they get +1 to wound against vehicles in CC, and they might be worth taking.


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.

9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no sense that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:13:13


Post by: SemperMortis


 hollow one wrote:
I'm going to spend a bit of time breaking what you've said down, alright?
SemperMortis wrote:
They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness.

You can now deepstrike boyz, making them invulnerable. And you can make them attack twice, or have exploding 6's in melee. You can also resurrect and teleport up to 200 points of boyz for 3CP.


Teleporta 2 CP, attack twice 3CP, Exploding 6s require goff klan and honestly they are one of the worst klans in my opinion. Green tide 3 CP as well. 8 CP to do what you have said in this, as well as choosing a subpar klan (my opinion) so most armies bring 13-15 CP right? you just blew through over half to do this.
SemperMortis wrote:
Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before.

Boyz can now DDD at 5+ and shoot twice while rerolling 1s. They are now our best screen killing unit, only dakkajet compares in output per point. If I exclude kultures and stratagems, sure boyz are not as good at shooting...... but we have kultures and stratagems? And they are amazing.
Dakkax3 on 5s 2CP, shoot twice 3 CP, rerolling 1s is Badmoons requirement, so decent, but again why spend any of this on Boyz when its way better on lootas and tankbustas. They are not our best screen killing unit, Dakkajets are better because they are even more durable and kill more cheap screens without having to use CP. so on your 1st part, dakka on 5s and double shot you are spending 5 CP on a shoota squad I think, so 30 shoota boyz = 60 shots, 20 rerolls for another 8ish hits, rerolling 1s for another 3 hits, so grand total you get 31 hits, 15 wounds vs T4 and 5 dead Marines x2 for 10 dead tacticals for the low cost of 210pts, and at least 5 CP (probably more for Teleporting or A Weirdboy jumping them), so you used 1/3rd of your CP to kill a screen....

SemperMortis wrote:
Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns.

Evil Sunz boys will have more across the field attacking faster thanks to Teleporta. This will certainly increase their choppiness because more will survive the footslog. But in general, I will concede this point (even though we have attack twice), they are certainly worse in melee than they used to be (by a margin of 15% I suppose), but they are still the best 7ppm melee troop unit in the game.
I disagree, I will give this to Firewarriors or hell even Khornate dudes.

SemperMortis wrote:
Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor).

I think this is where you underestimate boyz. There are stratagems that exclusively impact Boyz, like green tide, and others that make boyz exceptional, like Teleporta and Get Stuck In. You are clearly under-valuing stratagems. Focusing on bad stratagems like 'Ard Boyz is a clever misdirection, but it does not help your argument IMO since every outstanding stratagem we have target Boyz. Stratagems are the reason why boyz are better, and because you deny this fact you think Boyz are worse (more expensive for no additional benefits in the dataslate), I actually see your point of view, but it is flawed. Why waste strats on boyz though when they work better on other units, you yourself have used shoot twice, dakka on 5s, Teleporta and other strats that work way better with other units. Teleporta is ok for boyz but why waste 2cp on boyz getting a turn 2 deep strike when you can just jump them? The only truly boy specific strat worth a damn is green tide, and why is it good? because it resurrects a mostly dead boyz unit so you can get more value from your points, you are bringing back 150-200pts worth of a dead unit. So yeah, that is great and i'll probably be abusing the hell out of that, but otherwise every other strat is better on something else or not worth using (SKarboyz/Ard boyz)

SemperMortis wrote:
And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut.

This is a good point, outside of green tide of course. I would argue that just because I can use a stratagem on something else, that does not make the boy worse, it just makes the stratagem very good. I think in particular why Boyz are better than a morkanaut or some tankbustas is because boyz can be the target of ALL of our good stratagems and spells, and when you synergise you are getting something out of boyz that you can not get out of a Morkanaut. For example. Mob up, Warpath, Da Jump, Get Stuck In. Or Mob up, Da Jump, More Dakka, Showin Off. That combination on boyz is just so much better when you use them all on the same unit. I can't really generate the same advantage if I use that stuff on a Morkanaut. Sure, Lootas accept some of these combinations better, I agree, but that just makes Lootas really really good, and does not detract from how good Boyz are. Fist or Gork on a warboss with relic klaw, fight twice strat, boom better than boyz But this is a repeat of above so i'll call it here.

SemperMortis wrote:
Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it.

Once again, it's the combination and verstaility that makes boyz better here. For example, deathskull boyz: Mob Up, Warpath, Da Jump, Wreckers, Get stuck in. This is roughly 350 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 5. And your nob gets to reroll his weapon. With only 300 points of boyz, I think that knight might even die (ideal situation I know, but my point is clear). But MORE importantly, Double attacks is 6"+ movement, a good general will use this to consolidate into units and take hostages, and it is very hard to deploy well enough to stop this stratagem from being very effective. One 30 man squad that landed a charge after Teleporta will completely surround an army with Get Stuck In, in a way that you simply can not to without attacking twice. You can do all sorts of tricks with this, it is not a double damage stratagem all the time, sometimes it protects your boyz with hostages or turns off their tanks. Ohh i agree with you here. But again, you are using 1CP for mob up, a weirdboy for da jump, a second weirdboy for warpath, 2CP on wreckers and 3 CP on fight twice strat. So you have used 6 CP, and 2 of our best HQs to buff 1 unit of boyz to kill a knight, And it will kill a knight 40 boyz x 5 attacks each (warpath, choppa, over 20) is 200 attacks, 130ish hits and 40ish wounds x 2 = 80 wounds vs 3+ save = 26 wounds, but you have basically used about half your CP to do this trick and kill a 300ish point unit. That is not efficient, and on top of that you now have a 280point unit exposed that will get slaughtered on the enemies turn.

SemperMortis wrote:
Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.

I addressed the Mob up point already, it doesn't make boyz worse than they were in the index, they are obviously better. Obsec becomes better when I can string a 40 man blob across the field and guarantee a hostage with Get Stuck In. It becomes a lot better in fact, game winning better. And yes Deffskullz do grant that to nobz or whatever else, but the reason boyz are STILL better is that you can do this without having to be lucky blue boyz, you can do it as Goffs or Evil Suns, or even Bad moons and still have the kulture your army needs to win. again, I don't really consider obsec to be a huge bonus and on top of that...we were going to get that regardless with the codex. So its not really a buff for boyz, it is what we were supposed to have from the start...which is why EVERY OTHER ARMY got this for free.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.
I agree with this, I think 90 boyz is going to be pretty standard moving forward. However, it's certainly possible 200+ boyz is still good, but no ones going to play it because we have options now and its exhausting to play that many foot sloggers.

Again I disagree, I don't see people taking more than 60-90 a game at the very most, and as I mentioned, I am really thinking about using just grotz. 180pts to fill out a brigade troop requirements. leaving me with 1820pts to take tankbustas, kommandos, warbiker bosses and all sorts of better units. If I filled out a brigade with boyz the minimum would be 420 and the optimal load out would be 1260pts. leaving me with 1580 and 740 respectively.

Boyz just aren't as good in my opinion and they really didn't need the 1pt increase unless every other faction is going to see a similar point increase, and that includes space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.

9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no since that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.


Burna's are hot garbage right now just like in the index. Even increasing them to D6 wouldn't fix them. What you really need is a price cut AND a 4+ save. Make them capable of foot slogging and cheap enough to be throw away elite infantry and they suddenly start fighting for the role they currently sit in which is against nobz. And that means nobz are a bit over priced as well. 12pt nobz would be great for their stats.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:26:24


Post by: flandarz


I think which Kulture is best/worst is gonna depend on the list you throw together. In a Detachment with plenty of high-mobility CC options, Goff goes from one of the worst to one of the best. And I still think the Lucky Stikk is a superb Relic choice for a CC centric army.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:28:26


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah, that's what I noticed too. What kultur you want depends on army composition, and you do have the tools to do it. Which is great, I love that design.

So far, I'm happy with what we're given overall, there are just a few things that really bother me.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:34:04


Post by: hollow one


Alright semper, we disagree again. I guess we'll let the results see who is correct. Once people get sick of losing because they are bringing too many toyz I bet green tide + backfield will re surge (if not out right be the best list again next month).

I think the fact that you are saying what I am doing costs a lot of CP (it does, you're right) means it's not good. But I disagree. Some of the combinations I describe basically add 300 points to your army for that turn, most people would pay 5cp for that. And let's not forget the fact that boyz are troops, providing CP for your army anyway.

If boyz were 6ppm they would be the best troop in the game, right? They were already pushing it as INDEX troops. How do they become so much worse because they gained 1 point each. How? Even disregarding kultures and stratagems, boyz were THE unit that made orks viable. Are you honestly telling me that they are even close to mid tier just because they gained 12% cost? Unstoppable Green Tide ALONE makes up for that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:37:27


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I think boyz are good. They are still the meat of the army. Its just that you have so many other tools at your disposal, you don't have to rely overly on them. I consider that to be healthy design.
There are other things to complain about in the codex, really.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 01:43:20


Post by: flandarz


You hafta remember that pre-Codex, Orkz weren't a competitive army. Boy Blob lists just so happened to be the only viable option. We have SO many more viable builds now, though. While I don't think Boyz will ever phase out on the competitive scene, I do agree that our new options allow us to be competitive with more than just tons of models on the field.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 02:23:37


Post by: gungo


 hollow one wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Exactly, I wouldn't put them in the same category as weirdboyz or warboss on warbike. They are still good (teal) but they aren't a YOU MUST TAKE unit anymore. My competitive list is down to 60 boyz and I am seriously debating cutting them and saving 360pts and taking another 20 grotz instead. Than using those 360pts for something even better.
Renegades Open winner brought 90 boyz. 600 points of a 2000 list in one unit. Probably close to our best unit.


I’m with you on this boyz are still one of our best units.
Thier role has changed.
You don’t use boyz to be the core of your list anymore. You don’t waste tons of command points on them. (Except for a strategic greentide strat use)
They are however our best screen clearing unit plus our best unit to eat overwatch so you biker boss can wreck face..I personally will likely still use 60-70 boyz.

Kommandos are are great unit (If index allowed). You don’t spam them. You throw 1-2 units in your list to counter specific units such as ruin campers (where they excel on cover saves and wounding) or artillery units where the nob with BC and 2 burna power wpns per unit can do some damage.

Grots are NOT the core of our armies they are there to protect the core of your army from dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is absolutely no reason to ever take the burna dataslate. If you play in an area that allowed the index just take kommandos and you can use your burna models.
My list right now is 2 evilsun units of kommandos each with
Nob w big choppa
1x kommando w tankbusta bomb
2x kommando w burnas
1x regular kommando

The only thing I lose is extra points spent on burna units and the useless morale effect.

They gain
+2 cover saves in terrain
+1 to wound in ruins
And deepstrike
Plus as evilsuns I actually make my assaults into artillery or ruin campers




No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 02:37:17


Post by: Sluggaloo


 flandarz wrote:
You hafta remember that pre-Codex, Orkz weren't a competitive army. Boy Blob lists just so happened to be the only viable option. We have SO many more viable builds now, though. While I don't think Boyz will ever phase out on the competitive scene, I do agree that our new options allow us to be competitive with more than just tons of models on the field.


They were competitive pre codex because you could compete with them. Granted, it was a heavy skew list, but nonetheless green tide was up there as a well performing list.. just extremely boring and tedious to play with. The fact that we've gained options has nothing to do with being competitive or not, instead it just means we don't die of boredom, and have more freedom with our choices. You could theoretically gain options but lose out on competitiveness if all your options are overpriced for example.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 02:51:22


Post by: flandarz


For me, competitive means that they stood a fair chance of winning in the tournament scene. And while I'll admit I haven't kept up with every tournament, I can't remember too many instances of the Boyz bringing home the gold. Boy Blob is just too easy to counter for many competitive lists out there.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 03:02:47


Post by: hollow one


 flandarz wrote:
For me, competitive means that they stood a fair chance of winning in the tournament scene. And while I'll admit I haven't kept up with every tournament, I can't remember too many instances of the Boyz bringing home the gold. Boy Blob is just too easy to counter for many competitive lists out there.
The way your define competitive is basically limited to Eldar soup, Chaos daemon soup, and Imperial soup. There are heaps of fringe armies that top 8 big tournaments, and Orks were taking the gold 6 months ago on the back of Boyz alone. Your admission is telling, Orks were never dominating the tournament scene, but they have always been in the conversation with a competitive green tide.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 03:12:19


Post by: flandarz


That's fair. With Orkz being able to soup a bit now, hopefully we can see they Boyz join the list you mentioned.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 06:42:38


Post by: Jidmah


Does anyone have a link to that list hollow one was referring to? Rismonte asked to add all TOP3 placing ork lists to the OP and I think that's a great idea.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 08:40:37


Post by: tneva82


 flandarz wrote:
I'd definitely put Skarboyz in green. That S5 goes a long way. Normal Boyz? Yeah, I think real is fine.


S5 good, s4 that actually gets into combat better


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 08:45:30


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
[...]
9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no sense that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.

The KBB is not undercosted, it's one of the buggies that is costed roughly correctly. Honestly, it could probably be 10 points cheaper without it being an issue. You can't use the squigbuggy as a measuring stick since that one is just ridiculous. I believe all buggies are in an okay-to-good spot points wise except the squigbuggy, which need a 40 points drop, and the snazzwagon which should probably drop 15 or so. Or preferably the mek spehsul goes to 12 shots at S6 and keeps it current cost.

Regarding boyz, I think they're still green. Their cost went up, both in points but also in CP if you want to squeeze out all they can do. I honestly think the CP cost is the bigger issue potentially than the extra 1ppm but if you manage to use them correctly in a game, they can literally be game-changers. I wouldn't riot if they slid into teal, but they are still crazy strong if you let them do their thing, which is easier now with tellyporta. Also, their durability is a bit of an issue, but now you have threat saturation on account of the rest of your army not being worthless.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 10:23:46


Post by: deffrekka


SemperMortis wrote:
 hollow one wrote:
Love the first post so far Jid. Without being nitty gritty about each unit ranking, I must insist that Boyz are Green.

I don't care if you think they've gotten worse (they haven't). They are going to be a staple in EVERY competitive list, and already showed up as a minimum of 90 in the first two successful lists this month. Gretchin are not better than boyz IMO, they are useful for a specific purpose (CP and grot shields) and otherwise not a good unit. This is deceptive for new/casual players as they will fill their troops with gretchin and wonder why they are losing every game since they have no boyz.

Gretchin serve a valuable purpose, but Boyz are the meat and bones of an army. This makes Boyz categorically better than Gretchin IMO. Everyone is just sick of running boyz, but that does not prevent them from being one of our best units.

Additionally, their versatility is outstanding: double shooting bad moon shootas, double attacking evil sun choppas, the best deep strike in the game (da jump and 8 inch rerollable), mob up to 40, green tide of traitors, obsec, increased durability with some klans, infinite attacks. All for a mere 7 ppm. Most armies would kill for access to boys and their stratagems.

They are green. Both in skin, and tier.



They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness. Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before. Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns. Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor). And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut. Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it. Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote:
Going to a little RTT tomorrow.

My list has 1 evil suns warboss on bike, 2 evil suns warboss on foot. All have PK, and Kustom Shoota (model limitation).

I was thinking Supa Cybork on the bike boss, and Killa Klaw on one foot boss, and Dead Shiney Shoota on the other.

Which one should be my WL, and what trait?


Make warboss on bike take the relic klaw. But make your warlord one of them on foot because your warbiker boss is a suicide unit. Supa Cybork is meh at best, Id save the CP or take something different. I kind of like The redder armor on a Big mek or regular mek in a Bonecrusha that teleports turn 2. Makes it not only good at CC but also a wicked huge distraction carnifex.


The Morkanaut cannot shoot twice and the biker boss cant fight twice unless he dies. Both stratagems only affect Ork Infantry


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 12:02:13


Post by: An Actual Englishman



Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 12:11:38


Post by: PiñaColada


 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.

Nope, that'd be the mek shop. The stompa is just insanely overpriced, it doesn't cost points and make your army objectively worse


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 12:29:02


Post by: the_scotsman


 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?

If you want to clear chaff safely at range, try a Dakkajet. Its armed with effectively 2 mek speshuls that hit on 4s, it's got 4 more wounds, and it's immune to non fly melee.

If the bdsw was just competing with other buggy I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

Want to shoot at range - Dakkajet.
Want to get up close and be a distraction - KBB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also semper if you're real salty about the boyz nerf play Snake bites and make your hq a kff mek with follow me ladz.

Now you can leave out a foot warboss and painboy, freeing up a minimum of 176 points meaning that many boyz before the 1st nerf affects your list.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 12:37:38


Post by: flandarz


tneva82 wrote:


S5 good, s4 that actually gets into combat better


Evil Sunz is definitely our go-to Kultur for most lists, but if you're running a list with lots of mobility already, ES isn't going to be as helpful for ya as improving your damage output.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 12:47:37


Post by: An Actual Englishman


the_scotsman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?

If you want to clear chaff safely at range, try a Dakkajet. Its armed with effectively 2 mek speshuls that hit on 4s, it's got 4 more wounds, and it's immune to non fly melee.

If the bdsw was just competing with other buggy I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

Want to shoot at range - Dakkajet.
Want to get up close and be a distraction - KBB


The dakkajet is also 50% more expensive and has less AP on its weapon. Its virtually impossible to hide so it can always be shot. Its shooting ability degrades as it takes damage so if you don't get first turn you aren't hitting on 4s. It cannot tie anything in up in melee.

Its flat wrong to claim the Snazzwagon loses anywhere near 50% of its chaff clearing ability outside of grenade range. 2d6 grenades average another 7 shots and 2 more hits at str 4. Not exactly terrifying stuff.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 13:16:31


Post by: Blackie


I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.


90 autohits with a a significant amount of lack and for a unit that is made by t-shirt saves guys. 15 burnaboyz are 180 points, IMHO fair for a glass cannon unit that has a 8'' range and also needs a 120 point BW.

They should definitely have D6 autohits for 12ppm, otherwise they'd be fine at 8-9 ppm like kommandos or stormboyz.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 14:02:55


Post by: PiñaColada


They could at the very least have given them reroll wound rolls against infantry


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 14:06:25


Post by: Jidmah


the_scotsman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?


I actually did the math on that one... nine snazzwagon staying at 24 range are better at killing Castellan Knights than a stompa and more durable and cheaper. That's how bad the stompa is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


You are probably missing the FAQ which clearly states that you can't roll a six when auto-hitting because you are not rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: Added the tournament winner and a credits section to the first post


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 14:08:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?



Yeah, the clause that explicitly states auto-hit weapons don't get DDD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I have a question: I've read that burnas and auto-hitting weapons in general don't get a sigificant benefit from DDD but could it be the opposite?

Auto-hitting doesn't mean no rolls, it means that those rolls hit anyway so for fast playing there's no need to roll usually, but with DDD involved it does actually. DDD should give a huge benefit to auto-hitting weapons since those 6s become auto-hits.

Also Traktor Kannos have DDD, their 6s are additional auto-hits.

Am I missing something?


You are probably missing the FAQ which clearly states that you can't roll a six when auto-hitting because you are not rolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: Added the tournament winner and a credits section to the first post


You don't even need a FAQ. Read the DDD entry in the codex carefully, especially the last line.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 17:35:27


Post by: the_scotsman


You're stretching preeeeetyy hard here. The Dakkajet costs 1.5 times as much...and kills over 3x as many geq. The str to ap conversion breaks the Dakkajet even against all t3 chaff and makes it better against any invulnerable or 6+sv chaff.

And if you damage it and degrade it's bs it becomes the same as a snazzwagon, and only deals roughly twice as much for 1.5x the cost.

Yeah. This thing has no role that isn't filled by Kbb or Dakkajet.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 18:25:38


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Which to me is a problem. Why take anything else to clear chaff if you can just take a KBB or a dakkajet? A KBB is the same price as a snazzwagon, and yet it performs better. There's no point in having that many options if some of them are useless.
Then again, it is still early. Maybe the KBB and dakkajet have some practical flaws on the table that the other options don't have. I still think the snazzwagon is meant to be more of a hit and run unit than a direct frontal assault unit, like the kbb.
If I had the time or money, I would totally get one of everything and experiment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 18:32:46


Post by: PiñaColada


Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 18:39:33


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


PiñaColada wrote:
Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable


Well yeah, but that still doesn't mean its a good thing. Everything should have a use.
Throwing a molotov is harder than you think, actually. You still have to throw them, and if your hand-eye coordination is terrible it might not go exactly where you want.
They do ignore cover though, which is nice but also weird how it appears to be the only flame type weapon to do so.
Though that does give me a thought - has anyone ran the calculation of how effective the KBB would be against units that are in cover?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 18:43:54


Post by: PiñaColada


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Well every codex is bound to have some redundant units. They could easily just say that the burna bottles auto-hit if they want to give the BDSW some more punch. How hard is it to hit with molotovs anyways? I have no idea, but treat them like flamers and it's suddenly a lot more viable


Well yeah, but that still doesn't mean its a good thing. Everything should have a use.
Throwing a molotov is harder than you think, actually. You still have to throw them, and if your hand-eye coordination is terrible it might not go exactly where you want.
They do ignore cover though, which is nice but also weird how it appears to be the only flame type weapon to do so.
Though that does give me a thought - has anyone ran the calculation of how effective the KBB would be against units that are in cover?

Jidmah did in the old thread, the KBB is still vastly more effective than the BDSW


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 18:45:48


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Well damn, there goes that idea.
Well, another thing to write to GW about I suppose. Maybe in the next chapter approved they'll make the BDSW and buggy cheaper. And give spannas their own points cost, because it is pretty silly how it is right now. The whole unit character upgrade system is fundamentally flawed, really.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 19:22:25


Post by: Jidmah


If the snazzwagon would provide the same amount of shooting per points as the KBB (quick napkin math came out to about 70 points) it would be true sidegrade since you could get three snazzwagons for the price of two KBB. While the KBB would still be better in raw power, the snazzwagons would have all the little utility advantages and actually be more durable per point spent.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 19:25:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


How are you getting 3 snazzwagons for the price of 2 KBB?
2 KBB are 200 points. At 70 points 3 snazzwagons would be 210 points. They would have to be 65 points to do that.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 19:28:23


Post by: Jidmah


Yeah, that's a ten point difference for getting one more buggy.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 19:31:30


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


That sounds fair. Quantity is a quality of its own, so the saying goes.
Now, what to do with the buggy...I guess give it more utility? I don't think they were adventurous enough. They should have added squigs that grant cover, remove overwatch, apply debuffs, heal, etc.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 20:42:47


Post by: BAN


What do we think of big trakks with super skorchas now? I used to load them up with tankbustas and make things do the burny dance and they were awesome, do they still have a competitive place or are there just better cheaper options now?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 21:00:53


Post by: Grimskul


It's a tough call. Prior to the codex, it was one of the few ways we could do damage in shooting consistently and reliably against the -1 to hit factions like Alaitoc and Alpha Legion. Now that those traits might be changed soon with the upcoming CA, and the fact that DDD! and Mek Gunz changes exist, its pricing certainly makes it less appealing. I'd say it still has its niche, as a transport-gunwagon hybrid. I'd say it's best in a Freeboota list to help proc off the kultur for other units, given that its almost guaranteed to kill off most screens or small objective holding units. That or maybe Blood Axes, to give it a chance to fire back at anything trying to tie it in close combat.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 21:03:38


Post by: gungo


BAN wrote:
What do we think of big trakks with super skorchas now? I used to load them up with tankbustas and make things do the burny dance and they were awesome, do they still have a competitive place or are there just better cheaper options now?
suppa skorchas are still amazing however wait til chapter approved (point changes) before I compare them to cheaper transports like battle wagons.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 21:31:28


Post by: the_scotsman


Honestly, looking at the Squigbuggy and Boomdakka I think they're both in the same tier for totally different reasons.

The boomdakka is a mediocre unit in the background - yellow tier solidly - if it wasn't DIRECTLY competing with units at about the same points range in the same role that are very simply proven to be superior.

The squigbuggy, I can see where it's role is supposed to be. It's an all-purpose anti-elite platform designed to be taking on the heavy infantry of any faction no matter what makes them "heavy" - high toughness, shoot them with poison squigs. High save, shoot them with biteys. 2-wound, shoot them with booms. That's a role that we don't have TONS of competition for in the ork dex, most of our heavier weapons quickly slot right into the Rokkit profile.

The squigbuggy is just abominably priced. At 90pts, I think it'd have a niche. Not a huge niche, but at least a more interesting one than "anti-chaff shooty unit with very mediocre fire output #125362"


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 21:33:32


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Huh, that's an interesting though.
That would explain the low fire rates, as heavy elites tend not to be that numerous.
The 140pt price tag is a killer though.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 21:43:43


Post by: PiñaColada


I'd rather have it slightly more expensive than 90 (but still way less than 140) and all of its random amount of shots maxed out. Getting 2d6 shots at BS4 and 1d6 at BS5 is just too unreliable. The KBB works because half its firepower is auto-hit and the other half is 6 powerful shots. Not some d6 or 2d3 nonsense


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 22:50:50


Post by: An Actual Englishman


Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 22:55:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Well, the mek speshel is 24" range, so at 36" range the KBB outdamages it

The big shoota is 36".


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 23:00:11


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the mek speshel is 24" range, so at 36" range the KBB outdamages it

The big shoota is 36".

Lol well ideally I'd like to know the difference at 36, 24 then as close as possible without being in melee.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 23:08:06


Post by: PiñaColada


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.

I ran my KBB as a count as BDSW in a game because I haven't bought a BDSW yet. It's not terrible, it really isn't. It's just a bit underwhelming, speaking from my very limited experience. Sure, it's more durable with the -1 to hit. My opponent ignored it for 2 turns but even with 3 turns of shooting (I went first) it didn't do enough. The models fantastic and it's not a liability in your force really but it's tough to see the upside over the KBB, and even that buggy isn't some god-tier unit.

Edit: I just really wish it was S6, that would help alot versus chaff.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/24 23:12:38


Post by: An Actual Englishman


PiñaColada wrote:

I ran my KBB as a count as BDSW in a game because I haven't bought a BDSW yet. It's not terrible, it really isn't. It's just a bit underwhelming, speaking from my very limited experience. Sure, it's more durable with the -1 to hit. My opponent ignored it for 2 turns but even with 3 turns of shooting (I went first) it didn't do enough. The models fantastic and it's not a liability in your force really but it's tough to see the upside over the KBB, and even that buggy isn't some god-tier unit.

Don't worry, I'm really not expecting a God tier performance out of the unit lol.

The upside over the KBB is its greater flexibility at >8" to <25" range. I have had times in games where that'd be useful.

Like I said, I'll report back when I've run it in game. Experience is what educates me best.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 00:14:06


Post by: KillerOfMany


Quick battle report for the holiday weekend,

1500 pts - scorched earth

Me - 5 HQ's (killa klaw brutal but kunnin) with some warbikers, 10 tankbustas/5 BC nobs in trucks, unit of smasha gunz, (a lot of Vehicles at my local) 40 grots and 10/30 boyz. Evil sunz w/2nd detachment as badmoons.

Him - -1 to hit outside of 12in Eldarz, 3 casters, 20 guardians, 5 dire avengers,3 transports with bright lances, warithguard passengers...15 in all I think, 10 d-syth/5 axes.

T1 - he goes first and shoots off my warbikerz, a kannon dies, truck almost dies, the rest is not in range. I drive up to his vehicle's he parked on the points with my warboss/wartrike(fisted) and pick em up, consolidated into some of the warithguard passengers. Kannons kill 4 guards not in transport (a 3++ inv. and he gets 3 2's and a 1)
VP Orks 4/Eldar 3

T2 - fearing the HQ's he put everything he got into em, But orks is never beaten helps me shoot up some nearby guardians before trike goes down, and my warboss was in combat after he was charged at 1 wound left also fights, Definitely one of our best choices for 2 CP to get the most out of our HQ's with fist of gork as a plus. the rest shoot into the 40 jumped boys, get them to 25 count or so. I make all my close charges and pick up most of the flesh/wraith-bone, he got a 4 wound transport with 1 HQ hidden in ruins left, hand shake...

Fun game anyway... and short for how long it took to set everything up, lol


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 03:47:54


Post by: the_scotsman


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.


It's fine to use a substandard unit. Seriously, it's OK. I use Vets in my guard list all the time, and they do fine, but from a competitive tier list standpoint there is no reason veterans should not be "red, never use" - they just compete with better options.

The fact of the matter is, the dakkajet costs 1.5x what the bdsw is, and has identical defenses...except for 1.5x the wounds. it does 3x the damage when undegraded, 2.5x the damage when degraded. That is pretty simple, straightforward math. the strength to AP conversion is an advantage, or breaking even, against any target either unit likes to be shot at, because almost all light infantry is T3.

It does not make sense to change the rating of a unit on a competitive tier list because you want to buy the model and would feel bad if it were rated "red."


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 04:52:08


Post by: Vineheart01


there is a valid tactic of using the less optimal units in a list.

People have a bad habit of ignoring the subpar units, allowing them to perform above expectations. This is sorta the reason my killakanz own people locally, they all think "kanz suck i'd rather kill the 3 dreads or shoot at the wagon" and in the end those 6 kanz did an insane amount of damage...because they were ignored and nothing else really.

I imagine most people would, for the most part, ignore the BDSW the first couple turns in favor of killing that character-sniper SJD or the rokkit spammer MTSJ. Meanwhile the BDSW is just roaming freely killing things for longer than it feasibly should.

Generally when someone uses a lesser unit and it performs very well, this is why. Most of the time when i hear "Are you guys crazy i run X unit all the time and it owns!" its because its being ignored, not its amazing. Hell i ran 5x piranhas as tau in 6th/7th not because they were great but because they were JUST good enough for 200pts to royally piss people off and effectively waste their time removing them. Because if you ignored them, they'd still mulch your face, but if you didnt you often put more dakka into them than you'd like to admit using to remove them.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 08:17:18


Post by: Blackie


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, a dead buggy deals no damage. The BDSW is more durable point for point than the KBB. Why are we ignoring this fact?

Someone provide the damage of the KBB and Snazzwagon from 36" range for me against GEQ and MEQ?

I've used the Dakkajet, extensively. It dies first every game. It costs 148 pts with all its shootas which to me is quite a bit more expensive than 100 pts.

I have not used the BDSW in a game yet. I will, soon. I have a feeling I'll find a use for it. I've learnt not to trust the opinions of this forum in some instances and certainly not the pure mathematical arguments that ignore all game considerations.

I'll report back again once I've played a game or 2 with the BDSW. I'm not expecting it to be OP but nor do I think it'll be trash tier.


Nah, buggies aren't priority targets, they should be ignored for a couple of turns at least. Everytime I fielded my scrapjets, KBBs and dragsters all the enemy shooting was towards battlewagons, bonebreakas or the tankbustas/nobz trukks. Of course if you don't have target saturation the -1 to hit that BDSWs have can make the buggy more valuable. But in my experience KBB always work as a support for the more valuable hitters.

I agree that BDSWs are not trash tiers but since there's another buggy that does the same job for the same cost but is also more efficient there's no reason why in a competitive game an ork player choses BDSWs over KBBs.



No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 08:58:33


Post by: An Actual Englishman


the_scotsman wrote:
The fact of the matter is, the dakkajet costs 1.5x what the bdsw is, and has identical defenses...except for 1.5x the wounds. it does 3x the damage when undegraded, 2.5x the damage when degraded. That is pretty simple, straightforward math. the strength to AP conversion is an advantage, or breaking even, against any target either unit likes to be shot at, because almost all light infantry is T3.

It does not make sense to change the rating of a unit on a competitive tier list because you want to buy the model and would feel bad if it were rated "red."

Some of the statements above worry me because they are wrong. The units have completely different profiles and shapes, therefore their defuses are not identical.

Your damage calculation on the Dakkajet is also bogus because it seems like you're assuming it's firing against T3 models only. You're also assuming it's firing against the same unit to get the 4+ BS.

I dont want it as a red unit because I don't believe it's a red tier unit. It's pretty simple. I disagree with your assessment. From the thread it doesn't look like I'm the only one either. I have already purchased the model, I got it day of release along with all other buggies except the Squig buggy. The reason I didn't get the Squig buggy was mostly for aesthetic reasons.

By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.

 Blackie wrote:


Nah, buggies aren't priority targets, they should be ignored for a couple of turns at least. Everytime I fielded my scrapjets, KBBs and dragsters all the enemy shooting was towards battlewagons, bonebreakas or the tankbustas/nobz trukks. Of course if you don't have target saturation the -1 to hit that BDSWs have can make the buggy more valuable. But in my experience KBB always work as a support for the more valuable hitters.

My lists are all about target saturation. I don't run Battlewagons/Bonebreakers and I always put my valuable Trukks out of LOS as best I can. The buggies are decent targets for enemy fire because they are easy kill points.

 Blackie wrote:
I agree that BDSWs are not trash tiers but since there's another buggy that does the same job for the same cost but is also more efficient there's no reason why in a competitive game an ork player choses BDSWs over KBBs.



I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 09:55:25


Post by: Jidmah


 An Actual Englishman wrote:
By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.


I changed it because all of your and CthuluIsSpy's arguments basically boiled down to the snazzwagon being a versatile fast vehicle with a gun that's not great but better than average (it's more efficent than anything with big shootas or dakka guns). That's a lot more than can be said for other stuff in the red category like lobbas, nob bikers or burnas.

I'm still very convinced that the snazzwagon should never be suggested as a good option to players looking for units to add to their army.

There is no niche for the buggy, any function it can fulfill can be fulfilled better by other units. At 24" the dakkajet will always be the better option, any counter-argument for the dakkajet counts twice over for the snazzwagon. At 6" it will be outperformed by the KBB.

Now let's stop finding weird arguments for a buggy that is clearly inferior to other options and accept that it's model that you would only take for non-competitive reasons. To quote the first post:
This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

When the KBB shoots all its guns at a chaff unit it will kill 50% more models than the snazzwagon. That's all that counts.
The gun being great at shooting something else is just another argument against the snazzwagon, not for it.

That said, why shouldn't a gun wounding guardsmen on 2+ and ignoring their armor be used to remove guardsmen? You are clearing them to get to knights or tanks hiding behind them, and the rivet gun isn't great for shooting those.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.


How about YOU do the math for once. The last three times you called for math and I did it, you turned around and call it "flawed", "irrelevant" and "incorrect".
The burden of proof to show that the snazzwagon is actually anything else but an intentional handicap on yourself is on you.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 10:22:58


Post by: crzylgs


Can't (ofc I can actually because the internet...) believe the BDSW argument is still raging on. Its really not very good, at anything, compared to other options.

You guys should have let it go as soon as Jidmah posted a few pages ago and raised it to yellow. He gets all the Internet points for being a good OP and showing some form of compromise and diplomacy.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 10:29:12


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Jidmah wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.


I changed it because all of your and CthuluIsSpy's arguments basically boiled down to the snazzwagon being a versatile fast vehicle with a gun that's not great but better than average (it's more efficent than anything with big shootas or dakka guns). That's a lot more than can be said for other stuff in the red category like lobbas, nob bikers or burnas.

I'm still very convinced that the snazzwagon should never be suggested as a good option to players looking for units to add to their army.

There is no niche for the buggy, any function it can fulfill can be fulfilled better by other units. At 24" the dakkajet will always be the better option, any counter-argument for the dakkajet counts twice over for the snazzwagon. At 6" it will be outperformed by the KBB.

Now let's stop finding weird arguments for a buggy that is clearly inferior to other options and accept that it's model that you would only take for non-competitive reasons. To quote the first post:
This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

When the KBB shoots all its guns at a chaff unit it will kill 50% more models than the snazzwagon. That's all that counts.
The gun being great at shooting something else is just another argument against the snazzwagon, not for it.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.


How about YOU do the math for once. The last three times you called for math and I did it, you turned around and call it "flawed", "irrelevant" and "incorrect".
The burden of proof to show that the snazzwagon is actually anything else but an intentional handicap on yourself is on you.

1. My arguments for it aren't weird. They're perfectly logical in game scenarios.
2. My disagreement with your opinion does not make me a non-competitive gamer.
3. I never asked you to do any mathS, you decided that all on your own and it was very specific.
4. I don't need to do the mathS to know that outside of 8" range the BDSW outperforms the KBB at killing most things up to 25".
5. As far as I'm concerned ive presented many arguments that the snazzwagon is anything but an intentional handicap but you've completely ignored them, deciding to only respond to a minuscule part of my posts on the subject.

You've taken it out of the red category which is what I asked.

I disagree the Dakkajet should be in the category you've placed it. In my experience it's massive size and degrading profile means that it has exactly one turn of performing as your mathS shows, at maximum, before it starts to perform much worse. It has limited movement and is not a Speed Freek so is exempt from certain stratagems. It cannot charge targets which again means it can't benefit from certain stratagems. The dogfight stratagem is virtually useless for it because it only affects other units with the fly keyword, most of which have Toughness greater than 6

E - right lets use your maths to explain my point, since there are some of you that seem to be struggling to grasp what I think is pretty basic stuff;
Start of the game our armies are at LEAST 24" away from each other for most deployment options.
KBB moves 12".
It's now 12" away from this chaff it wants to kill so badly (assuming the chaff and KBB are both right on the deployment line).
It advances on average 3.5".
It's now 8.5" away from this chaff it wants to kill so badly (assuming the chaff and KBB are both right on the deployment line).
8.5" if my maths is right on this is greater than 8"?
So those burna exhausts do nothing because they are out of range.

The snazzwagon, on the other hand, doesn't even need to move to hit its chaff targets with most weapons.

Now I accept that if the KBB is Evil Suns this scenario becomes a lot more favourable to the KBB (again, assuming both chaff and KBB are deployed as far forward as possible). If the units are 24" apart there is in fact no situation in which the KBB can't burninate the chaff if it advances and is Evil Suns, even if a 1 is rolled to advance. But is a unit that must rely on a specific klan trait to have maximum effectiveness considered that much better than our humble Snazzwagon?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 11:33:09


Post by: Kebabcito


In a official local store, playing my orks against a worker of the shop, he said I cannot charge and pile in tanks I didn't declare charge, I only could fight with base-to-base orks and not 1 inch within my own ork, something like WTF.

As he's a worker of the company, I started saying ok, ok, yea, ok I cannot do that, ok... 30 minuts later I was SO MAD, it's just a game but I'm not stupid either, I checked 2 times the rules, talked with other workers of the shop and finally he just shut up, not my fault he don't know the rules working in an official store.

After this story, now I will talk about orkz.

I'm running a 65 CP campaing and now I want to build a 1500 points army, that's what I've got ATM.


Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [36 PL, 806pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Warboss [4 PL, 90pts]: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit, Power Klaw

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 223pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [11 PL, 223pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [2 PL, 60pts]: 20x Gretchin

+ Fast Attack +

Deff Kopta [5 PL, 148pts]
. DeffKopta: Twin Big Shoota
. DeffKopta: Kopta Rokkits
. DeffKopta: Kopta Rokkits

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Orks) [41 PL, 694pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Deathskulls

+ HQ +

Big Mek (Index) [5 PL, 75pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field

+ Elites +

Nobz [7 PL, 70pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga

Nobz [7 PL, 70pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Choppa, Slugga

Painboy [3 PL, 65pts]: Power Klaw

Tankbustas [8 PL, 190pts]: 2x Bomb Squig
. 10x Tankbusta: 10x Rokkit Launcha

+ Heavy Support +

Battlewagon [8 PL, 157pts]: Deff Rolla, Killkannon, Wreckin' Ball

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk [3 PL, 67pts]: Big Shoota, Wreckin' Ball

++ Total: [77 PL, 1500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

10 tankbustas and 2 squiggs go Battlewagon.
10 nobz, big mekk and painboy go trukk.
30 boyz deepstrike, 3 deffkoptas deepstrike.
Turn 1 I can Da Jump 30 boyz or just defend behind my gretchlins.

With 9 CP, I can save some stratagems for boyz or, If I see the oportunity, disembark tankbustas and oneshot some big guyz, what do you thinks my'orkz?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 11:35:49


Post by: Emicrania


For be an Actual Englishman, you showing a relevant lack of sportmanship. Just agree to disagree, play. Whatever suits you and let Jidmah be, so he can start to rate stratagems and so on


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 11:42:51


Post by: Jidmah


I am not ignoring your arguments, I have provided plenty of counter-arguments and proof, while you have not.
I refuse to discuss this any further with you, since none of your arguments are based on reason, but only on logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks.
I will put you on my ignore list an will no longer consider your input for the OP unless you change your ways of arguing.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 12:21:00


Post by: PiñaColada


One of the drawbacks of the bonebreaka is the 12 model capacity. It really ruled out putting MANZ in them for me since I didn't want to risk rolling some 1's. But thinking about it, putting 5 MANZ + 1 minimek & grot oiler is possible.

Rolling a single 1 if it blows up is no big deal, even two 1's is sort of fine. I could also put rezmekkas redder armour on the mek. Do people think it's too juicy of a target? I'm too busy to actually play games for a few weeks..

5 MANZ w/ saws + non-index minimek + grot oiler + bonebreaka equals 407 points. That vehicle has a somewhat reliable T1 charge. For the sake of argument I'd probably have another bonebreaka filled with just 10 boyz, a weirdboy and a waaagh banner nob next to it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 12:25:05


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I think 5 MANZ is all you need in a squad, or even an army.
Its not as if you can max out a squad, due to how you only get 3 in a box.

You get a lot more options with 5 MANZ. You can put them in a trukk, a battlewagon with killkannon, a battlewagon without killkannon, a bonebreaka or a gunwagon or tellyporta
If you go more than 6, you can only put them in a battlewagon without KK or a tellyporta. And that's a heavy investment.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 12:29:07


Post by: flandarz


On the 8.5" topic: if only there was a Kultur that would allow that KBB to move and additional 2" and advance an additional inch. That would solve that whole conundrum.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 12:32:37


Post by: PiñaColada


Yeah, I actually think 5 MANZ is the sweet spot but I roll with saws only so even just 5 is 215 points. Going over 5 is limiting in trasnport as you stated but the issue I had with even just 5 was that I had forgotten that the minimek can take a grot oiler so I put them in a normal battlewagon with grots.

Having that grot oiler means that if the vehicle explodes you roll seven dice, one or even two 1's is pretty much okay. Meaning I'm actually pretty comfortable putting 5 MANZ in a bonebreaka now. Considering GW clarified that MANZ can't benefit from loot it I'm not liking putting them in a trukk anymore.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 5122/01/25 13:52:17


Post by: gungo


To be fair jidmah I’m with you. The last couple days I’ve been sitting here reading these comments going wtf are people arguing about the rating of the 2-3 ork buggies that absolutely suck.
The scrapjet is the only semi competitive option, the dragsta is ok but unlikely to ever be seen in a real competitive list and the kbb isn’t complete garbage... the other two are hot trash.

If you are arguing about the other 2 buggies it’s becusse you are trying to justify playing the 2 models you just bought and somehow feel you need other players approval that you didn’t waste money on complete crap.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 13:56:14


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I haven't bought any buggies yet.
Its almost as if some people like to discuss tactics, balance and theorize, and follow the idea that if its in the book, there has to be a use for it.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 14:23:43


Post by: Sluggaloo


I'll be buying the new buggies eventually because they are gorgeous models. In terms of table top However they are definitely lacking across the board IMO for their cost. They should definitely cost less than battlewagons, and closer to trucks in price.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 14:32:37


Post by: TheunlikelyGamer


I'm sure this has been covered but I just missed in on all the talk about the buggies. I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable! too bad the Mek can't take an oiler when he is on a bike. I like buffing the trike with fist of gorl and the kbb trait. For a reliable first turn charger that can hit relatively hard.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:04:07


Post by: flandarz


You are technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it's definitely not RAI. I imagine if it'll be Errata'd, if GW finds out about it. (RIP 1+ MANz)


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:35:49


Post by: Vineheart01


i dont see why it wouldnt be intended.
At the same time, he cant be healed by a painboy. Same healing mechanic, different tags.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:38:43


Post by: flandarz


That would be why. Supa Cybork, from the description, appears to be intended to negate Wounds at the cost of no healing. And, as you said, Mekaniak and Doks Tools are the same mechanic, with different tags. They both "repair" models.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe GW just hates Painboyz more than Meks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:38:49


Post by: TheunlikelyGamer


I had no intention of using both. A pain out can't heal a vehicle so I didn't even think of that.

So if the big FAQ 2 says that you can no longer use abilities that allow you to come in from ambush turn 1 then why did GW not change the wording of the ork codex before it was released in nov? I really want my kommandos to come in before turn 2 lol.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:54:15


Post by: flandarz


I think that's been a Beta Rule for a hot minute now. If I had to guess, they didn't change the wording in the Codex because of how many units have similar abilities. Probably better just to throw out a universal rule on it.

That said, if you're playing casual and your opponent don't mind, you go ahead and bring them Kommandos in on T1.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 15:56:25


Post by: BaconCatBug


Because the Big FAQ is a beta rule. They haven't changed "deep strike" rules, they changed rules that required you to deploy on turn 1. Rules that had the option previously are unchanged and now can only be used on turn 2 and 3.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:15:48


Post by: TedNugent


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.


Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:21:23


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 Jidmah wrote:
I am not ignoring your arguments, I have provided plenty of counter-arguments and proof, while you have not.
I refuse to discuss this any further with you, since none of your arguments are based on reason, but only on logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks.
I will put you on my ignore list an will no longer consider your input for the OP unless you change your ways of arguing.

Lol this has to be one of the most pathetic posts I've read on this forum.

Ad hominem attacks? Where?

I literally edit a post to show why I think something re a tactical discussion and because you have no counter you decide 'not to discuss this anymore'.

Its sad really, the way you think you're the little master of this thread. Just like I said earlier. No point trying to discuss tactics with someone who thinks he's dictator of a thread and only his opinion is worth anything. Have fun in here Jidmah, I'll post in another, actual tactics thread.

 flandarz wrote:
On the 8.5" topic: if only there was a Kultur that would allow that KBB to move and additional 2" and advance an additional inch. That would solve that whole conundrum.

You might want to re-read my post regarding this....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I haven't bought any buggies yet.
Its almost as if some people like to discuss tactics, balance and theorize, and follow the idea that if its in the book, there has to be a use for it.

Be careful, you might end up on Jidmah's ban list! Tactics, balance and actual game theory isn't to be discussed here


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:23:23


Post by: deffrekka


I have found that my Shokkjump Dragstas outperform my Megatrakk Scrapjets. I run 3 SJDs and 2 MTSJs. The Dragstas every game have plinked off more wounds to vehicles and monsters than my Scrapjets have ever done.

Time and time again the 2 shots with 3+ reroll 1 dice to hit and reroll 1 dice wound has been more consistent and reliable than the Scrapjets Rokkit kannon and wing missile.

I have experienced often that my Dragstas kill high toughness units by themselves where my Scrapjets have struggled to even put damage on the target.

I have delegated my Scrapjets to target heavier infantry and light vehicles and chuck off the wing missile at a vehicle which rarely produces damage.

Used in conjunction with my Moar Dakka Showin' Off Tankbustas, I've routinely killed 3 vehicles on my turn 1.

Yesterday I fought against alaitoc craftworlders with 2 hemlocks and 3 wave serpents and managed to pull off a 11-3 victory.

My next game will be vs kraken and kronos Tyranids which will probably be my biggest threat for my army


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:39:37


Post by: flandarz


Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:45:24


Post by: greggles


I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!


Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:47:19


Post by: BaconCatBug


 TedNugent wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.


Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.
Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:50:44


Post by: An Actual Englishman


 flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 17:52:44


Post by: Pandabeer


Iteration on a 1k points list I made a while back:

Evil Sunz Batallion

HQ

1x Trikeboss (Warlord, Da Supa-Cybork relic, probably Might makes Right or Brutal but Kunnin' trait)

1x Warp'ead (Da Jump, Warpath)

Troops

10x Boyz
- 1x Nob with PK

23x Boyz
- 1x Nob with PK

10x Gretchin

Fast Attack

1x Kustom Boosta-Blasta

1x Boomdakka Snazzwagon

3x Megatrakk Skrapjet

Should be 999 points.

Wanted an alternative for my Nob Bikers and this list is nice and fluffy as well because with all the buggies it's a right an' proppa Speedwaaagh!. Alternative would be to swap two Skrapjets for a Bonebreaka and more Boyz but I like the shooting on the Jets a lot as well because there's a lot of ruins to hide infantry in in my local meta. Which is also the reason I took a Snazzwagon because those should do quite decently against GEQ and MEQ in cover.

As should be obvious, the battle is simple: send everything forward and start shootin' and krumpin' gitz. Krumping first, objectives second (unless those objectives involve krumping something of course).

Thoughts?


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 18:14:36


Post by: TedNugent


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.


Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.
Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.


If only there was some kind of transport that he could use to get within combat range.

Ah! No, you're right, infantry never get into close combat ever.

That"s why no one uses boys and only uses warbikes for example, and why no one ever uses meganobs or Killa kans.

If only there was some kind of tellyporta strategem or a ramming speed strat that could just - make - combat easier to get into! There's gotta be a better way!


No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya] @ 2018/11/25 18:43:18


Post by: Blackie


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.


Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.
Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.


If you use BWs it definitely can. I run 2 footslogging warbosses both with a relic melee weapon. 3 BWs, two trukks of bustas and a trukk with nobz. One of them at least usually gets the chance to swing in combat thanks to target saturation.