Took Orks out to a tiny RTT. More successful than I expect.

My list:


Round 1 (Craftworld Eldar)


Round 2 (Tyranid Zoenthropes)


Round 3 (Tyranids lots of gants)


Final thoughts.
- Jeezus. My local meta was completely geared up for knights, and nobody was ready to deal with hoards in the slightest.
- Evil suns Boyz put alot of pressure on people.
- Bad Moons Lootas might be a bit too spicy for the local meta. They drew alot of ire because of how showy they are when they roll dice.
- We were playing ITC missions. I played a total of 6 turns, but I held more on all 6, killed more on 5/6, and got the bonus on 4/6.

Good batreps tag. Thanks for sharing

What would look like at competitive Speed Freaks army with gretchin as CP farm mixed with a BM detachment?
bikes and KBB+MSJ and lootas?

Stratagems and Timing for Orksezes, by Frowbakk, Duh Brain Boy.
<CLAN> is one of the most common limiting factors with Stratagems. For some reason an Evil Suns Painboy can't or won't heal a Bad Moons model, and vice versa. I will put other restrictions in the same <brackets> which will show the Keyword required to use the Stratagem.

For example: If you've been using the 3 CP - Get Stuck In Lads! in order to Fight a second time in the Fight Phase with anything other than <Infantry>, AND only at the End of the Fight Phase you've been using it wrong.

In Your Turn


In Opponent's Turn

Interesting thing while composing this list of Stratagems was More Dakka! was restricted to the Shooing Phase, while Showin' Off for Bad Moons Infantry was not... So that Bad Moons Index Big Mek with the Thunderbluss stuck onto the Komb-Skorcha with second Kombi-Skorcha for 4d6 S5, AP-1 Autohits in Overwatch twice for just 89 points.

You'd only ever get it off once, sad to say, before your opponents all Dread-socked you.

EDIT: I copied this over to my post on Page 1 of this thread in order to make it easier to find.

 greggles wrote:

I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?

It's a number of things, the extra AP really helps to begin with, especially vs vehicles/monsters with cover turn 1. Shooting a leman Russ for example that has a 5+ when benefiting from cover is so much better than that Rokkit giving him a 4+.

Then comes the damage roll with deathskulls. Having played against wave serpents twice the Rokkit only cause 2 damage.... but when your rerolling the dice for the kustom shokk rifle you get better odds of causing more damage than a mere 2 damage.

Also the added benefit of causing WS on 6's can't be ignore. Yes it's rare but I have often had 2 hits each time from the shokk rifle so 2 wounds rolls and a reroll. It has come Alot for me in my games.

The speed is just so much better, it has allowed me to nab objectives more often where the Scrapjet would struggle to reach.

Finally the 3+ to hit. I can't express how good this is. Having thought 3 armies with minus 1 to hit, I've still gotten hits where the Rokkit kannon just gets nothing with hitting on 6's.... hitting on a 4 with 2 shots and 1 reroll I have found to be quite reliable.

People experiences may differ but I can't leave home without 3 of my dragstas.

I've even had the holy Mork moment of getting 2 DDDs off, getting 4 hits with the shokk rifle and causing 4 wounds to a knight castellan who then failed 3 and I caused 14 wounds just from that one dragsta


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mortal wounds*

tag8833, why was your second battalion Bad Moonz? Could have gone Snakebites or Deffskullz for a better saveon those HQs.

 greggles wrote:
I, for some reason, just realized that the Wartrike I'm running can be healed by my KFF Big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the KFF Big Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Not only that, but even with the 5+++ From Supa-Cybork Body (which disallows a Painboy's Dok's Tools), the Deffkilla Wartrike is a Character, and therefore eligible to be healed d3 MORE wounds by a Painboy from the same <CLAN> who is within 3" for 1 CP with a Medi-Squig.

So the Defkilla Wartike could regain 2d3 wounds at the End of the Movement phase.

Kinda makes the 4++ from the Bad Moons Warlord Trait - Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy all that more attractive...

... but that +1" to Charge range from Evil Sunz, though...

 greggles wrote:

I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?

I’m with you greggled unless I decide to make the badmoons super Wartrike with 4++ warlord trait and super cyborg relic. Then he’s like a mini ghazskull.

You can also use da fixer upper on the wartrike.

So you could conceivably heal him multiple times, from painboy, meks tools, da fixer upper, medisquig.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
tag8833, why was your second battalion Bad Moonz? Could have gone Snakebites or Deffskullz for a better saveon those HQs.

Extra grots to grot shield the lootas / tankbustas. Also, lets the painboy heal the weirdboyz when they perils. Only happened once.

Unless I misunderstood something, the wartrike is neither a biker nor infantry, which are the only unit categories that Dok's Tools affect.
Interestingly, it is indeed still possible to use Medi-Squig on him.

So played my Orks again Saturday against a genestealer heavy Tyranid army. 3rd win a row with my codex! Main take a ways for me were: Prefer the deepstriking Bonebreaka over 3 Deff Dreads. 2 KMB each did not perform too well even as Death Skulls, and even with that load out 3 are still way more expansive than a Bonebreaka.
Really loving the Scrapjet so far, even as I haven't tried the other buggies. It has reasonable chaff clearing and those rokkits really put the hurt on big beasties and vehicles.
SAG meks are fun and I will field them in probably every list just for that alone but their potential is all over the place. To illustrate, I was lucky enough to get first turn and the first one immediately put 8 wounds on some flying beastie, the second flunked hard for 3 turns in a row.
Edit: not really related to Ork tactica but he was honestly taken aback by just how overloaded my Clan trait was. Rerolls, 6++ and objective secured. When I asked him what he got he just said: 'ere we go for nids.

Yeah, 2d6 will do that to you. But if you roll high you will deal some damage, especially if you run deathskulls.

 greggles wrote:

I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?

Guess that depends on what you charge him into. I charged him into a Harlequin troupe master and squad of Harley's and he came out alive. Had I realized I could heal him I would have. He got shot down later when he got too far from the KFF Mek. Which was still helpful because my opponent focused on him and not my other units making him more valuable then 120pts.

Played a game a little while ago.

Tyranids


Orkz


Deployment


Turn 1


Turn 2


Turn 3


He obviously wasn't running an optimal list, but I'm pretty proud of the victory none-the-less. The stars were obviously the Lootas and Traktor Kannons, but Zhad and the Dreadz did well too. Psyker Phase was a mixed bag, as I got Denied more often than not, but that Da Krunch was SOOOOO satisfying. I wish the Goff Battalion had performed a little better, but by the time they got up there, the fighting was basically done. My opponent's lack of long-range really hurt him in this match, since there wasn't really anything he could do to stop my Lootas and Traktors from wiping his HQs and Heavies.

Guys, can we talk about Spanner Boyz real quick? I built a couple of kits worth of lootas and burnas in anticipation of the new codex (RIP burnas), but I couldn't figure out what to do with the Spanner bits. Is there a reason to stick these guys with either lootas or burnas, even considering the options from the Index? Right now, I think my best options are either going KMB and using them as Meks or going rocket launcha and using them as tankbustas.

 oomiestompa wrote:
Guys, can we talk about Spanner Boyz real quick? I built a couple of kits worth of lootas and burnas in anticipation of the new codex (RIP burnas), but I couldn't figure out what to do with the Spanner bits. Is there a reason to stick these guys with either lootas or burnas, even considering the options from the Index? Right now, I think my best options are either going KMB and using them as Meks or going rocket launcha and using them as tankbustas.

I guess moar Tankbustas is the safest bet.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
there is a valid tactic of using the less optimal units in a list.

People have a bad habit of ignoring the subpar units, allowing them to perform above expectations. This is sorta the reason my killakanz own people locally, they all think "kanz suck i'd rather kill the 3 dreads or shoot at the wagon" and in the end those 6 kanz did an insane amount of damage...because they were ignored and nothing else really.

I imagine most people would, for the most part, ignore the BDSW the first couple turns in favor of killing that character-sniper SJD or the rokkit spammer MTSJ. Meanwhile the BDSW is just roaming freely killing things for longer than it feasibly should.

Generally when someone uses a lesser unit and it performs very well, this is why. Most of the time when i hear "Are you guys crazy i run X unit all the time and it owns!" its because its being ignored, not its amazing. Hell i ran 5x piranhas as tau in 6th/7th not because they were great but because they were JUST good enough for 200pts to royally piss people off and effectively waste their time removing them. Because if you ignored them, they'd still mulch your face, but if you didnt you often put more dakka into them than you'd like to admit using to remove them.

That's flawed logic. If they shoot at something else it's because that something else is more threatening. Their firepower doesnt' increase if you add more viable unit. If you add something that actually makes threat then what happens? Either they still don't shoot it or they direct fire from something else to that but that something else was already more threatenin gthan BDSW so rather than BDSW you now have something else MORE threatening unit free. In other words your overall damage output increased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
I had no intention of using both. A pain out can't heal a vehicle so I didn't even think of that.

So if the big FAQ 2 says that you can no longer use abilities that allow you to come in from ambush turn 1 then why did GW not change the wording of the ork codex before it was released in nov? I really want my kommandos to come in before turn 2 lol.

The no T1 deep strike is only for matched play...Codex needs to work for ALL game modes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
If only there was some kind of tellyporta strategem or a ramming speed strat that could just - make - combat easier to get into! There's gotta be a better way!

2CP for character is pretty expensive for one character. And if you put him on say battlewagon say hello to chaff surrounding that battlewagon which then gets blown and contents die. Putting up such an high priority target into soft battlewagon ready to be surrounded and contents killed like that is not all that good idea. You have better luck rushing in with BW regularly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oomiestompa wrote:
Guys, can we talk about Spanner Boyz real quick? I built a couple of kits worth of lootas and burnas in anticipation of the new codex (RIP burnas), but I couldn't figure out what to do with the Spanner bits. Is there a reason to stick these guys with either lootas or burnas, even considering the options from the Index? Right now, I think my best options are either going KMB and using them as Meks or going rocket launcha and using them as tankbustas.

5 burnas with KMB spanner in deathskull colour in trukk with rokkit and 2 mek's with KMB's(if index allowed) would be 1 rokkit and 4 KMB's all with reroll to hit, wound and damage. That's main usage I can think of.

gungo wrote:

 greggles wrote:

I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?

I’m with you greggled unless I decide to make the badmoons super Wartrike with 4++ warlord trait and super cyborg relic. Then he’s like a mini ghazskull.

He also needs fists of gork to be a mini ghaz. His melee weapon is quite weak for an ork boss without the weirdboy's buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oomiestompa wrote:
Guys, can we talk about Spanner Boyz real quick? I built a couple of kits worth of lootas and burnas in anticipation of the new codex (RIP burnas), but I couldn't figure out what to do with the Spanner bits. Is there a reason to stick these guys with either lootas or burnas, even considering the options from the Index? Right now, I think my best options are either going KMB and using them as Meks or going rocket launcha and using them as tankbustas.

If index's allowed use those spannerz as single meks with KMBs in a deathskulls detachment. Otherwise just run them as standard lootas. At the moment burnas are pretty bad, I'd take them only for kommandos as free upgrades.

 Frowbakk wrote:

Interesting thing while composing this list of Stratagems was More Dakka! was restricted to the Shooing Phase, while Showin' Off for Bad Moons Infantry was not... So that Bad Moons Index Big Mek with the Thunderbluss stuck onto the Komb-Skorcha with second Kombi-Skorcha for 4d6 S5, AP-1 Autohits in Overwatch twice for just 89 points.

Pardon me, how does this work?

Played a Great 1500+1500 vs 3000 game yesterday. Freetbootaz + Blood Axes vs Bad Moons. The Freebootaz klan culture was awesome and was a succes on every single turn. Flash Gitz were utterly awesome and, together with Badrukk they stopped a 30 men boys squad dead in its tracks before wiping it out: shooting, showing-off for another round of shooting and then charging in. The Smasha guns performed admirable but the Traktor cannon was an utter failure.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

 Frowbakk wrote:

Interesting thing while composing this list of Stratagems was More Dakka! was restricted to the Shooing Phase, while Showin' Off for Bad Moons Infantry was not... So that Bad Moons Index Big Mek with the Thunderbluss stuck onto the Komb-Skorcha with second Kombi-Skorcha for 4d6 S5, AP-1 Autohits in Overwatch twice for just 89 points.

Pardon me, how does this work?

Played a Great 1500+1500 vs 3000 game yesterday. Freetbootaz + Blood Axes vs Bad Moons. The Freebootaz klan culture was awesome and was a succes on every single turn. Flash Gitz were utterly awesome and, together with Badrukk they stopped a 30 men boys squad dead in its tracks before wiping it out: shooting, showing-off for another round of shooting and then charging in. The Smasha guns performed admirable but the Traktor cannon was an utter failure.

I came up with the idea haha it's just a index Big mek with 2 kombi skorchas and then the bad moon relic. 4d6 str 5 ap1 autohits. Double it with showin' off. Doesn't work for overwatch though, as it's shooting phase only

 deffrekka wrote:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

 Frowbakk wrote:

Interesting thing while composing this list of Stratagems was More Dakka! was restricted to the Shooing Phase, while Showin' Off for Bad Moons Infantry was not... So that Bad Moons Index Big Mek with the Thunderbluss stuck onto the Komb-Skorcha with second Kombi-Skorcha for 4d6 S5, AP-1 Autohits in Overwatch twice for just 89 points.

Pardon me, how does this work?

Played a Great 1500+1500 vs 3000 game yesterday. Freetbootaz + Blood Axes vs Bad Moons. The Freebootaz klan culture was awesome and was a succes on every single turn. Flash Gitz were utterly awesome and, together with Badrukk they stopped a 30 men boys squad dead in its tracks before wiping it out: shooting, showing-off for another round of shooting and then charging in. The Smasha guns performed admirable but the Traktor cannon was an utter failure.

I came up with the idea haha it's just a index Big mek with 2 kombi skorchas and then the bad moon relic. 4d6 str 5 ap1 autohits. Double it with showin' off. Doesn't work for overwatch though, as it's shooting phase only

Actually it's used after resolving shooting attack. No word about it being restricted to shooting phase. So Q is is overwatch shooting attack? If yes that's fair play

I got a concede out of my BobbyG SM buddy at the bottom of turn one, before my shooting was even complete with two assaults looming. The codex Stratagems really have turned our volume up to 11. It seems straightforward, take three battalions and pump all the points into two or three strong elements in your list.

I only hope I got all the rules right.

I took a Wazbom Blastajet next to a Dakkajet, Wazbom jet is strong.

I used Showin' Off and Moar Dakka on the Dakkajet, it cleaned up almost two Dev squads which ultimately caused a rage quit.

The 15 Lootas I was going to use Showin off on had no LOS on a second target after killing five Hellblasters.

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

I ask because among the many things that were not going well for my opponent I was exactly one pip from Da Jumping a Killa Klaw ES Warboss with Fists of Gork into a crazed kamikazee tank smashing party, provided he actually made his assault anyways.

The 15 Lootas I was going to use Showin off on had no LOS on a second target after killing five Hellblasters.

You can't use the same stratagem twice in a phase. (dunno if that was turn 2 or not)

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

You have to have declared them as a target of the initial charge. If you are planning on using get stuck in lads, basically declare everything within possible range as a target when you charge. Otherwise you can pile in, and get them into combat, (and they can swing against you) but you can't swing against them.

 greggles wrote:

The 15 Lootas I was going to use Showin off on had no LOS on a second target after killing five Hellblasters.

You can't use the same stratagem twice in a phase. (dunno if that was turn 2 or not)

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

You have to have declared them as a target of the initial charge. If you are planning on using get stuck in lads, basically declare everything within possible range as a target when you charge. Otherwise you can pile in, and get them into combat, (and they can swing against you) but you can't swing against them.

1) Only in matched play. In Narrative you can use a stratagem multiple times a phase.

2) You're correct here. If you want to fight again after a consolidate, you can only do so against units you declared a charge against (and potentially suffered overwatch from). Just multicharge and suck up the overwatch, it's worth it to be able to get stuck in again.

 flandarz wrote:
and took out Zhad, but not before I used Orkz is never Beaten to take down the Tyrant.

I don't have my codex in front of me but I *think* Orkz are never beaten only works on Infantry.

 greggles wrote:

The 15 Lootas I was going to use Showin off on had no LOS on a second target after killing five Hellblasters.

You can't use the same stratagem twice in a phase. (dunno if that was turn 2 or not)

Pretty sure he meant, his primary idea was to use 'Showin off' on the Lootas, but due to only having one target in LOS he chose to use it on his Dakkajet instead.

 Nym wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
and took out Zhad, but not before I used Orkz is never Beaten to take down the Tyrant.

I don't have my codex in front of me but I *think* Orkz are never beaten only works on Infantry.

You're thinking of "GET STUCK IN, LADZ!". The only restriction on "ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN" is for the unit to be an ORK CHARACTER.

 Rismonite wrote:
I got a concede out of my BobbyG SM buddy at the bottom of turn one, before my shooting was even complete with two assaults looming. The codex Stratagems really have turned our volume up to 11. It seems straightforward, take three battalions and pump all the points into two or three strong elements in your list.

I only hope I got all the rules right.

I took a Wazbom Blastajet next to a Dakkajet, Wazbom jet is strong.

I used Showin' Off and Moar Dakka on the Dakkajet, it cleaned up almost two Dev squads which ultimately caused a rage quit.

The 15 Lootas I was going to use Showin off on had no LOS on a second target after killing five Hellblasters.

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

I ask because among the many things that were not going well for my opponent I was exactly one pip from Da Jumping a Killa Klaw ES Warboss with Fists of Gork into a crazed kamikazee tank smashing party, provided he actually made his assault anyways.

You can only use Showin' Off on a Bad Moonz Infantry unit, so there's no shooting twice with a Dakkajet.

Isn't Showing Off INFANTRY only too?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't Showing Off INFANTRY only too?

I knew I messed something up

Guess I'll apologize to him in a bit

EDIT

I was soo focused on using it on the Lootas when I looked down I realized I no 2nd target I stood up looked at the table and said "well I'll use it on the Dakkajet then, I don't know why I didn't think of that before." /sigh oh well

Yep. Infantry only.

Next time da jump those lootas into position where they can actually see more than 1 unit ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:
I was soo focused on using it on the Lootas when I looked down I realized I no 2nd target I stood up looked at the table and said "well I'll use it on the Dakkajet then, I don't know why I didn't think of that before." /sigh oh well

BTW in that scenario had the dakkajet already shot? Strategem needs to be used after shooting. So no unit A, unit B, unit A show off.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't Showing Off INFANTRY only too?

Correct, the only real use for it is on Tankbustas or Lootas, no other INFANTRY units really put out enough shooting for it to be worth the cost.

Mistakes happen, just be sure to not do it again. One good combo is to Da Jump some Lootas and then use MOAR DAKKA on them along with Showin' Off. That way they auto hit on 5's and 6's, and explode on 5's and 6's as well, shooting twice!

tneva82 wrote:
Yep. Infantry only.

Next time da jump those lootas into position where they can actually see more than 1 unit ;-)

I'm with you there I was totally consodering that turn 2

Can Moar Dakka give then 5+ after they jump? (Edit, thanks BCB)

Btw if they jump it counts as moving right?

Edit, as to your 2nd point, I had not used the dakkajet yet. I was instead deciding I should use showing off on the jet

Which i can't do

More dakka can be indeed used for jumping. It's done at the start of movement phase so da jump is already done. Good at negating that -1 to hit for moving your heavy weapon lootas. And makes it preeeetty hard for enemy to avoid your lootas. Best he can do is position stuff somewhere where LOS requires you to put lootas outside grot screen shield at which point you might not want to sacrifice your lootas. Unless target is like magnus and you get 1st turn at which point loota bomb will average him dead.

I remember using Lootas pre-codex and was literally unable to hit the enemy Fire Prism due to having -3 to hit. More Dakka basically makes you immune to any negative to hit modifiers and lets you get extra shots.

 greggles wrote:

Hey guys, is it legal to consolidate within 1 inch of an enemy in the assault phase then use our Get Stuck In! Stratagem to fight again? Or does consolidation happen after it is legal to use that Stratagem?

You have to have declared them as a target of the initial charge. If you are planning on using get stuck in lads, basically declare everything within possible range as a target when you charge. Otherwise you can pile in, and get them into combat, (and they can swing against you) but you can't swing against them.

Yeah, the tyranids can do the same trick. I think even necrons can do it with their Novokh specific strat, but I never tried it.

What are the odds that GW will actually FAQ our index to make Warbosses on Bikes, Big Meks on Bikes, and Painboyz on Bikes actually have the Speed Freak keyword? Kind of sucks not being able to use the Red Sunz kulture of +2 move on them as well as the Billowing Exhaust Clouds and Drive-By Krumpin' stratagems.

I mean RAI bikes are Speed Freaks but without it in writing, it doesn't really mean anything.

Seeing as they had the opportunity but didn't faq DDD onto the index units ,I'm guessing pretty low?

Odds are somewhere between 0 and hell freezes.

Which is funny because they have errata'd index units before to include codex changes, but I guess Orks are just not worth doing. Gotta pump up the sales of Wartrikes amirite?

Gotta love GW's
"Hey! Come buy these new shiny Speak Freak models as well as our Speed Freak side game.

We REALLY want you playing a Speed Freak army and load it full of Bikers!.... What's that? Oh... You are wondering about all your Index characters who would definitely help out such an army... Yeaaaaahhhhh..... they didn't quite make it to the codex.

You really don't need the melee power of Warbosses on Bikes for this army...
And why would your Bikers need a Painboy to heal them?...
And sure the Speed Freak army is centered armound vehicles, but you really don't need a Mek to fix those vehicles like, right?...
And you really don't NEED a Kustom Force Field to ride alongside your vehicles...
And you don't NEED a non-Mega Armored Big Mek to ride in those transports for your vehicle army, I mean it is ALWAYS better to have the more expensive option that takes up two transport spots...

But SERIOUSLY, please PLEASE play Speed Freaks!!!"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s

Welp, this got real emotional since the last time I checked the thread 3 pages ago, lol.

Here's what I mean by "Defensively Identical" on the dakkajet:

Dakkajet:
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 12W, 148pts
BDSW
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 8W, 100pts

"it has a completely different profile" I assume you mean the physical model, because the rules profile is preeeeetty much the same.

Now let's look at the offensive profile. For the sake of argument, let's assume your theory that every dakkajet is always degraded to 6+BS at all times. Any situation where the dakkajet is doing over 1.5x the damage of the BDSW, it is outperforming it for the cost. However, because you also seem to be comparing the performance outside of 8" to avoid having to admit the KBB is better, we will not give the BDSW its burna bombs. This includes Dakkadakkadakka but no stratagems or kulturs for simplicity's sake. We both run Evil Sunz anyway.

Vs Guardsmen:

Dakkajet 4.87
BDSW 2.86
1.602x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% better for cost. This ratio is identical versus Kabalites, Eldar Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, and Ork boyz owing to the 2nd AP being wasted from the BDSW along with the point of str from the dakkajet.

Vs Cultists:

Dakkajet 5.85
BDSW 2.987
1.96x firepower, dakkajet roughly 50% better for cost.

Vs Marine/Power Armor:

Dakkajet 2.34
BDSW 1.81
1.29x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% worse for cost

Vs plaguebearer (most common invuln based unit in competitive play)

dakkajet 2.07
BDSW 1.38
1.5x firepower, exactly the same for cost. Note that this ratio is identical for all T4 units with an invuln save. If you are T5 with an invuln (Grotesques, Wracks) or T3 with an invuln (horrors, other lesser daemons) the dakkajet goes up to its Cultist points ratio.

Essentially, the BDSW needs to have a target that is T4 or T7-8, with an armor save 2 or better than its invuln, to outperform a degraded dakkajet for the point cost. You also need to be operating between 9-24" to outperform the KBB. Undegraded, the dakkajet outperforms the BDSW in all situations. So, I happily accept its graduation to yellow tier - it's got a situation where you'd want it objectively compared to other options. Hooray!

Personally, because I'm taking both as a chaff clearing tool and distraction, I like the fact that the dakkajet often tanks firepower that could have gone into my other vehicles. It takes 5 BS3+ lascannons to degrade the thing and even THEN it outperforms the BDSW against anything that actually fits the definition of "chaff".

Also for me and my local tournament meta, the dakkajet checks one more major box with its shot profile: Dark Eldar vehicles and Grotesques. It is exactly optimal at S6 and AP-1 to cause wounds to DE skimmers, and they also have Fly, which allows it to use the solid value Long Uncontrolled Bursts strat to slap them around even more efficiently.

I run any shooting focused unit in my more competitive list as Freebootas. The first time I ran a freeboota dakkajet against a reasonably competitive dark eldar list, I cracked a venom with one of my 3 traktor kannons (55% chance of an auto-explode if you wound one? I'll take it!) then dropped LUB on my dakkajet and it one-shot a dissie ravager. And that's not even super above average performance - it averages 8 wounds if it's hitting on 2s. The BDSW doesn't have that kind of "best case" situation, it performs predictably below average and depends on opponents ignoring it to slowly grind its points back 15-20 points per turn.

It's more a case of "We don't want new players to have to convert models with parts they don't get in the box."

If it is a model issue, then either make a model or just make the top half of one of those character models and stick it in a bag and call it Warboss Biker Upgrade Kit where it just replaced the upper torso, head, and arms of a Biker Boy. They already make upgrade kits for other armies.

If we could swing back towards a tactical discussion it'd be better.

Ta.

Delete.

the_scotsman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s

Welp, this got real emotional since the last time I checked the thread 3 pages ago, lol.

Here's what I mean by "Defensively Identical" on the dakkajet:

Dakkajet:
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 12W, 148pts
BDSW
-1 to hit in shooting, T6, 4+, 8W, 100pts

"it has a completely different profile" I assume you mean the physical model, because the rules profile is preeeeetty much the same.

Now let's look at the offensive profile. For the sake of argument, let's assume your theory that every dakkajet is always degraded to 6+BS at all times. Any situation where the dakkajet is doing over 1.5x the damage of the BDSW, it is outperforming it for the cost. However, because you also seem to be comparing the performance outside of 8" to avoid having to admit the KBB is better, we will not give the BDSW its burna bombs. This includes Dakkadakkadakka but no stratagems or kulturs for simplicity's sake. We both run Evil Sunz anyway.

Vs Guardsmen:

Dakkajet 4.87
BDSW 2.86
1.602x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% better for cost. This ratio is identical versus Kabalites, Eldar Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, and Ork boyz owing to the 2nd AP being wasted from the BDSW along with the point of str from the dakkajet.

Vs Cultists:

Dakkajet 5.85
BDSW 2.987
1.96x firepower, dakkajet roughly 50% better for cost.

Vs Marine/Power Armor:

Dakkajet 2.34
BDSW 1.81
1.29x firepower, dakkajet roughly 20% worse for cost

Vs plaguebearer (most common invuln based unit in competitive play)

dakkajet 2.07
BDSW 1.38
1.5x firepower, exactly the same for cost. Note that this ratio is identical for all T4 units with an invuln save. If you are T5 with an invuln (Grotesques, Wracks) or T3 with an invuln (horrors, other lesser daemons) the dakkajet goes up to its Cultist points ratio.

Essentially, the BDSW needs to have a target that is T4 or T7-8, with an armor save 2 or better than its invuln, to outperform a degraded dakkajet for the point cost. You also need to be operating between 9-24" to outperform the KBB. Undegraded, the dakkajet outperforms the BDSW in all situations. So, I happily accept its graduation to yellow tier - it's got a situation where you'd want it objectively compared to other options. Hooray!

Personally, because I'm taking both as a chaff clearing tool and distraction, I like the fact that the dakkajet often tanks firepower that could have gone into my other vehicles. It takes 5 BS3+ lascannons to degrade the thing and even THEN it outperforms the BDSW against anything that actually fits the definition of "chaff".

Also for me and my local tournament meta, the dakkajet checks one more major box with its shot profile: Dark Eldar vehicles and Grotesques. It is exactly optimal at S6 and AP-1 to cause wounds to DE skimmers, and they also have Fly, which allows it to use the solid value Long Uncontrolled Bursts strat to slap them around even more efficiently.

I run any shooting focused unit in my more competitive list as Freebootas. The first time I ran a freeboota dakkajet against a reasonably competitive dark eldar list, I cracked a venom with one of my 3 traktor kannons (55% chance of an auto-explode if you wound one? I'll take it!) then dropped LUB on my dakkajet and it one-shot a dissie ravager. And that's not even super above average performance - it averages 8 wounds if it's hitting on 2s. The BDSW doesn't have that kind of "best case" situation, it performs predictably below average and depends on opponents ignoring it to slowly grind its points back 15-20 points per turn.

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's more a case of "We don't want new players to have to convert models with parts they don't get in the box."

"We don't want new players to have the impression this is an hobby that includes model building - the hobby is buying the models!"

 CaptainBetts wrote:
Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

If it indeed costs 3CP to unlock then I doubt we'll ever see it. For 1CP it might be worth the plunge t get access to the stratagems, which could be useful every now and then I suppose. But Orks are so CP-starved anyways that getting more stratagems to spend CP on isn't very attractive. Other factions, like IG or SM might get more mileage out of these new rules

the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

Batrep for a competitive game I played this weekend against a pretty prominent local tournament player:

Enemy list:

Drukhari black heart Battalion

2x Archons, one with the Black Heart relic, the other running with a blaster pistol
6x Kabalite warriors in 5x double splinter venoms 1x dissie raider (to also hold the archons for drop efficiency)
3x haywire scourges
3x dissie ravagers
3x mandrakes
1x dissie razorwing jetfighter with extra SC

Aux Detachment
1x biker farseer with doom and executioner

My list:

Evil sunz batt

Index bike big mek with KFF
Index bike warboss with killa klaw

30x boyz with BC nob
10x Boyz with BC nob
10x gretchin

6x meganobz, 3x klaw 3x saw (just what I have for models, I know more sawz would be better)

Freeboota batt

Kaptin Badrukk with ammo runt
Weirdboy (warpheaded him for da jump+fists)

3x 10 gretchin

3x traktor kannons
9x flash gits with 1x ammo runt
6x smasha guns (I wanted this to be a reasonable TAC list so I didnt just throw in 8 trakktors)

dakkajet
Skrapjet
shokkjump dragsta
trukk for gitz+badrukk



Overall impressions: Holy moly mek gunz do work against DE. Even the "suboptimal" smashas pretty much auto-wound those suckers because they're T5 and a lucky smasha can absolutely destroy even a Raider base vehicle in a single go....just nutty for a 36pt model. Just absolutely bonkers.The trakktors were flashy as hell and SUPER demoralizing with the auto-explodes dishing out massive chunks of mortals but I think i'd do the same if not better with just equal points of smasha guns. Dakkadakkadakka on BS4+ platforms is no joke.

It is my hunch, not a certainty but a hunch that Freebootas/Deathskullz will slowly replace Bad Moonz as the shooty ork detachment, despite the fun that is bad moonz lootas. The +1 to hit buff might as well be automatic now that your mek gunz give it out, because I would never go to a tournament with less than 10 of these buggers, and it affects your whole army. 25 lootas shooting twice is amaaaaaaaaaaaaazing, don't get me wrong, but it's a threat that the meta can shift to counter by bringing tons of lasguns or other anti-chaff weaponry designed to sweep aside your grot shield and get to those juicy T4 6+ lootas before you can pull it off. There's also more creative/outlandish threats that people can bring to the table to make your grot shields trickier to position - an IG vulture can scoot over to one side of the lootas blob to juke 50% or more of the potential grot shields, just as an example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:

 CaptainBetts wrote:
Have you guys seen this yet? By going frame-by-frame through the Vigilus Defiant "trailer" book showcase, you can see an example of one of the new formation detachments - the Ork Blitz Brigade (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/a0evgb/by_going_framebyframe_through_the_vigilus_defiant/

What do we think. Strong? Won't ever be seen?

If it indeed costs 3CP to unlock then I doubt we'll ever see it. For 1CP it might be worth the plunge t get access to the stratagems, which could be useful every now and then I suppose. But Orks are so CP-starved anyways that getting more stratagems to spend CP on isn't very attractive. Other factions, like IG or SM might get more mileage out of these new rules

Okay, but, counterpoint, Hold On Boyz is HILARIOUS and possibly THE BEST THING EVER.

I like it. It's definitely not tournament level competitive, but it's fun as hell.

So, I might be crazy for considering this, but I'm thinking about spamming as many deathskull meks with KMBs as I can.

I mean, a little mek with a KMB is 31 points with a 24" lascannon, who is a character who rerolls everything all the time. Keep stacking those little buggers, toss in a couple big meks and it seems you'll have a surprisingly dangerous, untargetable couple of gunz.

Sadly, someone pointed out to me the rule of 3 which killed my dreams a bit, but there's still spanners in burna mobs. Not as good, only 1 wound and 1 reroll per unit, but still a fun thought.

I mean, mek gunz are great, but pretty easily killed.

And in Apoc, I dream of 20 KMB deathskull little meks in a garg squiggoth........

 G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

Hold On Boyz specifically says you do not embark the unit on the transport. you literally just scoop the fuckin' thing and bring it with you.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, I might be crazy for considering this, but I'm thinking about spamming as many deathskull meks with KMBs as I can.

I mean, a little mek with a KMB is 31 points with a 24" lascannon, who is a character who rerolls everything all the time. Keep stacking those little buggers, toss in a couple big meks and it seems you'll have a surprisingly dangerous, untargetable couple of gunz.

Sadly, someone pointed out to me the rule of 3 which killed my dreams a bit, but there's still spanners in burna mobs. Not as good, only 1 wound and 1 reroll per unit, but still a fun thought.

I mean, mek gunz are great, but pretty easily killed.

And in Apoc, I dream of 20 KMB deathskull little meks in a garg squiggoth........

You may still be able to live this dream. I believe Deff Dreadz can take 4 KMBs each at a price comparable to TBs in trukk.

Take that and throw it out a Tellyporta

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
the hold on boyz has potential. though half of what if does seems like that is what open topped and assault transports should have anyway. be withing 3 inches, "embark" transport moves, disembark 3 inches. zipping up a 10 man squads of big choppa/dual choppa nobz who jump out and hold on could be fun/ good but at the cp cost of 5.... idk

You can't embark and disembark in the same turn.

Hold On Boyz specifically says you do not embark the unit on the transport. you literally just scoop the fuckin' thing and bring it with you.

yea, the strategem is what I am referring to as quoted from vigilus. literally scoop up a unit already on the baord after a combat, "hold on" to the transport and you count as beign on the transport and getting off. I am curious though to see if that turns out to be worth the 5 cp investment.

Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.


4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.


115

Bigdoza wrote:
Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.


4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.


115

This was talked about a couple pages back. Think it was brain storming / speculation rather than having actually played it in a game though.

Seems like it'd be a brutal screen killer. But I'm not convinced the index/codex wargear mixing options will stay like this for very long.

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

I guess where the index is banned Stormboyz are still relevant obj grabber?

 Emicrania wrote:

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

I guess where the index is banned Stormboyz are still relevant obj grabber?

Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

I would like burnas to be cheaper, they are the coolest miniatures, feth it

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

Bigdoza wrote:
Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.


4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.


115

How are you getting two kombi-skorchas?

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

But then again there's value in getting them in face on T1. Like clearing up drop zones for main stuff.

And they might risk being blasted but if they don't they have essentially 100% quaranteed charge T2 unlike with deep strike.

 Jidmah wrote:

Bigdoza wrote:
Has anyone tried running:

Bad Moonz Big Mek on Warbike (Index)
2x Kombi-Skorcha, Da GobShot Blunderbuss.


4 D6 Str 5, -1 autohits, plus 6 shots from bike and 2 shoota shots with -1bs.


115

How are you getting two kombi-skorchas?

index big mek may take 2 from the souped-up weapons list. So 2 KMBs or 2 Kombi-scorchas if he wants (cant take a KFF tho).

I actually ran my arch-arsonist troll build a few days ago, and did fairly well. The concept was "only weapons that have some auto-hitting capabilities unless I'm forced to take one on the model that doesn't". I think the official count was 3 boomsticks on the deffkilla, 2 dakkaguns and 2 shoota halfs of the combi scorchas on each big mek's bike, and 3 rivet cannons/3 grot blastas on the 3 KBBs. Otherwise it was all auto-hit.

I think the deffkilla with the buzzbomb relic is better, because he's actually a melee threat after he clears a screen away, and the big mek is just an unarmed nob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
But then again there's value in getting them in face on T1. Like clearing up drop zones for main stuff.

And they might risk being blasted but if they don't they have essentially 100% quaranteed charge T2 unlike with deep strike.

por que no los dos? 15 of each and you're a third of the way to an evil sunz brigade.

Is a purely footslogging army viable? I am playing against a really good tournie player tmo who will likely be running imperial soup with the Castellan, loyal 32 and probbaly basilisks or leman Punishers. 2000 pts

I was going for
Goff Battalion
2 Weirdboyz
1x 30 Boyz with nob
1x 20 Boyz with nob
1x 15 Boyz with nob
1x 10 MANZ (1 with killsaws)
1 x 15 Stormboyz with PK Nob
Painboy

Freebooter Vanguard
Badrukk
Big Mek KFF
1 x 5 Flashgitz
1 x 5 Flashgitz
1 x 5 Lootas
1 x 6 tankbustas
1 x Grot Mega tank with 7 rokkits
1 x 10 Grots
1 x Painboy

I will be making the warlord Weirdboy a Warphead with da jump and warpath with the lucky Stikk. Not sure if the other weird boy should have da krunch or fists. Fists on a Weirdboy takes him upto strength 9

Should I also put the MANZ or 30 man blob on the tellyporta. The idea being to warpath and jump the other unit.

 Elfric wrote:
Is a purely footslogging army viable? I am playing against a really good tournie player tmo who will likely be running imperial soup with the Castellan, loyal 32 and probbaly basilisks or leman Punishers. 2000 pts

I was going for
Goff Battalion
2 Weirdboyz
1x 30 Boyz with nob
1x 20 Boyz with nob
1x 15 Boyz with nob
1x 10 MANZ (1 with killsaws)
1 x 15 Stormboyz with PK Nob
Painboy

Freebooter Vanguard
Badrukk
Big Mek KFF
1 x 5 Flashgitz
1 x 5 Flashgitz
1 x 5 Lootas
1 x 6 tankbustas
1 x Grot Mega tank with 7 rokkits
1 x 10 Grots
1 x Painboy

I will be making the warlord Weirdboy a Warphead with da jump and warpath with the lucky Stikk. Not sure if the other weird boy should have da krunch or fists. Fists on a Weirdboy takes him upto strength 9

Should I also put the MANZ or 30 man blob on the tellyporta. The idea being to warpath and jump the other unit.

I don't think you're going to get very far with that against a competitive imperial soup list.

If you asked me to set up the best possible list with as much of what you've set up here as I can use, I'd go for:

Snakebite Battalion
1 weirdboy
1 warboss
10x Gretchins
1x25 boyz with nob
1x10 boyz with nob
Grot Mega Tank with Rokkits
5x tankbustas

Evil Sunz Battalion
Big Mek KFF
Weirdboy
2x10 gretchins
30x boyz
10x Manz tellyporta'd
15x stormboyz

Fill the rest with more snakebite boyz, like just more and more and more snakebites boyz. Use the 18" kff stratagem if you can't cover the boyz for the first couple turns.

Yeah gretchin are compulsory for tides lists - best defence for a footslogging list (especially for ranged specialists like Flashgits, tankbustas, lootas etc). Grot-shielding Boyz is slightly less effective, as you'll want the Boyz to eventually overtake the grots.

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah gretchin are compulsory for tides lists - best defence for a footslogging list (especially for ranged specialists like Flashgits, tankbustas, lootas etc). Grot-shielding Boyz is slightly less effective, as you'll want the Boyz to eventually overtake the grots.

If you're footslogging boyz and using grot shields you can absolutely get those gretchins killed before the boyz hit. I'd definitely take 10 gretchin in front of my boyz if I knew I was facing a castellan - perfect for tanking that shot from Carl's Wrath.

 Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

I look at it the other way. Youre paying only 1 point more per model for more versatility. You have the option to deploy stormboys and hit pretty much any deployment turn1 if you want to. You can also take kunning but brutal and either re deploploy them in reserve or deploy them out of LoS. ive taken stormboys or kommandos every game so far since dex (around 10) and have gotten way more value out of stormboys than i have kommandos.

Well yes. I was countering the idea that you should NEVER not deep strike stormboyz.

GreenTidePackers wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

I look at it the other way. Youre paying only 1 point more per model for more versatility. You have the option to deploy stormboys and hit pretty much any deployment turn1 if you want to. You can also take kunning but brutal and either re deploploy them in reserve or deploy them out of LoS. ive taken stormboys or kommandos every game so far since dex (around 10) and have gotten way more value out of stormboys than i have kommandos.

Similar to the discussion on KBB's and some other units, stormboyz perform much better in more casual games where the tempo is not "Game basically over turn 2". In the current pace of tournament play, where turn 3-4 is basically endgame mopup and all the action happens turn 1-2, stormboyz are functionally identical to kommandos because both will deep strike, both will charge, do their thing, and it is expected that they are either dead, or your army has swept the field and they're just mopping up.

in casual games where a unit of T4 6+ models might survive a turn, stormboyz do offer increased flexibility the turn after they arrive.

So what are the ideas for arming Nobz? I was thinking double choppas or big choppa and slugga to keep them cheap so I can run a lot. But as Death Skulls I'm also tempted to throw the occasional heavier weapon in. What do you feel is a good way to use them if you take 2 or 3 mobs of them?

 Castozor wrote:
So what are the ideas for arming Nobz? I was thinking double choppas or big choppa and slugga to keep them cheap so I can run a lot. But as Death Skulls I'm also tempted to throw the occasional heavier weapon in. What do you feel is a good way to use them if you take 2 or 3 mobs of them?

Much as in the index, nobz are best when you don't want to take 30 boyz i.e. in a mechanised list. 12 boys in a trukk or bonebreaker are pretty meh, while double choppa nobz are actually kinda scary.

Edit: if you're running deffskulls definitely add a powerclaw in there, otherwise stick to a couple of big choppas.

The blitz shouta maybe good for an evil sunz build. Warbikes and Scrapjets getting the benefit of evil sunz and bad moons vs a single target, could end up being alright.

I'm just liking the idea of a bonebreaka with a back seat driver big mek with the redder armour. It'll be moving 15" + d6+1" and charging 2d6+1" with ere we go. Use the krush 'em strat to get a higher chance of getting more attacks with the wagon.

The other 2 strats aren't great. Opening salvo just doubling the range of weapons on the gunwagon is just bad. If it was double shots then we would be talking. And hold on boys is strange they can't charge afterwards which is the same for the blitz brigade scout move back in 7th so they just sit there. It's more like a second da jump but strictly for shooting units like shoota boys, burns boys and tank bustas

the_scotsman wrote:

GreenTidePackers wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

I look at it the other way. Youre paying only 1 point more per model for more versatility. You have the option to deploy stormboys and hit pretty much any deployment turn1 if you want to. You can also take kunning but brutal and either re deploploy them in reserve or deploy them out of LoS. ive taken stormboys or kommandos every game so far since dex (around 10) and have gotten way more value out of stormboys than i have kommandos.

Similar to the discussion on KBB's and some other units, stormboyz perform much better in more casual games where the tempo is not "Game basically over turn 2". In the current pace of tournament play, where turn 3-4 is basically endgame mopup and all the action happens turn 1-2, stormboyz are functionally identical to kommandos because both will deep strike, both will charge, do their thing, and it is expected that they are either dead, or your army has swept the field and they're just mopping up.

in casual games where a unit of T4 6+ models might survive a turn, stormboyz do offer increased flexibility the turn after they arrive.

dont get me wrong, i think kommandos are solid too but i mean, that argument is pretty much why you would bring stormboys. If a tournament style game is decided in the first 2 turns, why wouldnt you want an option that can be flexed to having 20+ models always making a turn 1 charge with 4 attacks each. Vs kommandos where they would very easily DS in and fail a charge, even if they do survive, they dont get any value until turn 3. the only possible argument you can make for kommandos over stormboys is if you value late game board control since kommandos can be brought in via MSU. other than that, stormboys can also be reserved. On top of that, storm boys have a stronger gimmick than kommandos. you can hide a smaller stormboy unit and position them for mobing up with a large resrved unit. Getting into an adventagous position with a 14m +d6 is pretty easy and pretty much guarantees a charge with a large unit of stormboys. Stormboys have much more flexibility than kommandos. ill gladly pay the 1ppm premium on a model that offers more flexibility for a tournament list.

 Emicrania wrote:

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

I guess where the index is banned Stormboyz are still relevant obj grabber?

Souped up index kommandoes with 2 burnas, bc/pk nob, Tankbusta Bombs have taken over the role of both burnas and stormboys and yet are still not ultra competitive. They are good and have a decent role of backfield ruin clearing/artillery clearing units but are not a must take unit.

I also don’t buy the idea that stormboys are much more flexible... they have a bit more movement. However they lose out on weaker saves, weaker wounding in ruins, weaker weapon options (no burnas or Tankbusta Bombs) and cost more! If you are avoiding evil suns detachment then sure stormboys are better as kommandos have a harder time making the charge they need but I’d take evil suns kommandos anyday over evilsun/Goff/deathskulls storm boyz. And Goff/deathskulls stormboys are decent!

GreenTidePackers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

GreenTidePackers wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

I look at it the other way. Youre paying only 1 point more per model for more versatility. You have the option to deploy stormboys and hit pretty much any deployment turn1 if you want to. You can also take kunning but brutal and either re deploploy them in reserve or deploy them out of LoS. ive taken stormboys or kommandos every game so far since dex (around 10) and have gotten way more value out of stormboys than i have kommandos.

Similar to the discussion on KBB's and some other units, stormboyz perform much better in more casual games where the tempo is not "Game basically over turn 2". In the current pace of tournament play, where turn 3-4 is basically endgame mopup and all the action happens turn 1-2, stormboyz are functionally identical to kommandos because both will deep strike, both will charge, do their thing, and it is expected that they are either dead, or your army has swept the field and they're just mopping up.

in casual games where a unit of T4 6+ models might survive a turn, stormboyz do offer increased flexibility the turn after they arrive.

dont get me wrong, i think kommandos are solid too but i mean, that argument is pretty much why you would bring stormboys. If a tournament style game is decided in the first 2 turns, why wouldnt you want an option that can be flexed to having 20+ models always making a turn 1 charge with 4 attacks each. Vs kommandos where they would very easily DS in and fail a charge, even if they do survive, they dont get any value until turn 3. the only possible argument you can make for kommandos over stormboys is if you value late game board control since kommandos can be brought in via MSU. other than that, stormboys can also be reserved. On top of that, storm boys have a stronger gimmick than kommandos. you can hide a smaller stormboy unit and position them for mobing up with a large resrved unit. Getting into an adventagous position with a 14m +d6 is pretty easy and pretty much guarantees a charge with a large unit of stormboys. Stormboys have much more flexibility than kommandos. ill gladly pay the 1ppm premium on a model that offers more flexibility for a tournament list.

1) stormboys dont get +1A at 20 models, only Boyz have that as an ability. If they did get that, I'd agree that their 30-man unit cap would allow them to perform that role quite nicely in evil sunz.

2) we're assuming evil sunz I'm guessing because that increases their average threat range significantly to allow for a reasonable turn 1 charge (13"+7" advance+8" charge average vs 12+6+7, puts their average threat range at 28" vs 25" - pretty important if your no mans land is 24".) Evil sunz deep strikers have a 75% chance of getting in off deep strike, which is pretty phenomenal.

3) Stormboyz move 12"+6", not 14"+D6. You're thinking of warbikes.

Charge first turn with evil sunz stormboyz I'll grant is definitely pretty easy. And I'd say the best use case for them as you said is take a large mob, wait to deploy them until the VERY last unit put down, set them down right on the line, see who gets the first turn. If it's you, and your opponent has placed decent amounts of models down such that a turn 1 charge is useful - leave them there and do that. If your opponent is going first or if they have deployed a screen to make the turn 1 charge not worth it, zoop them off the board with Kunning But Brutal and deep strike them. That is a use case, and it's why they're not straight up "bad tier".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

I guess where the index is banned Stormboyz are still relevant obj grabber?

Souped up index kommandoes with 2 burnas, bc/pk nob, Tankbusta Bombs have taken over the role of both burnas and stormboys and yet are still not ultra competitive. They are good and have a decent role of backfield ruin clearing/artillery clearing units but are not a must take unit.

I also don’t buy the idea that stormboys are much more flexible... they have a bit more movement. However they lose out on weaker saves, weaker wounding in ruins, weaker weapon options (no burnas or Tankbusta Bombs) and cost more! If you are avoiding evil suns detachment then sure stormboys are better as kommandos have a harder time making the charge they need but I’d take evil suns kommandos anyday over evilsun/Goff/deathskulls storm boyz. And Goff/deathskulls stormboys are decent!

Goff stormboyz do get boss zag, who is a nice little character with his various buffs - IIRC, Zag is not restricted to the goffs warlord trait, so he can take Kunnin But Brutal and pull off the reserve-yoink trick on himself for free (plus the large unit of stormboyz you took him with).

The large unit of stormboyz is morale immune, and good for providing Mob Rule to your nearby squads, even though it doesn't get Green Tide. 59% chance to get in off DS is nothing to sneeze at even if it's not phenomenal at 75.

the_scotsman wrote:
Goff stormboyz do get boss zag, who is a nice little character with his various buffs - IIRC, Zag is not restricted to the goffs warlord trait, so he can take Kunnin But Brutal and pull off the reserve-yoink trick on himself for free (plus the large unit of stormboyz you took him with).

Alas, you remember incorrectly. Boss Zagstruk is a Named Character (both from a "He's a unique model" and RaW listed as such in the Points Section) with the GOFF keyword and thus is forced into the "Proper Killy" Warlord Trait. At least it's not as bad as it was pre-errata.

Thanks man, for doing this again. You solid af.

I agree if you are taking evil suns and index is allowed use kommandos over stormboys or burnas.
If you are not taking evil suns and are using Goff’s/deathskull then stormboys are better. I wouldn’t take zhagstuk as a warlord as he’s a pure suicide unit but he is a decent pk nob if you are using Goff stormboys which are decent.

I personally prefer kommandos for the role I need them. Evil suns ruin camping clearers and artillery killers.

Whoops ignore this, sorry!

Missing 2 weeks of weekly games, first due to fever and then due to work taking me to another city that day, I was itching to play again. There\s also competive tournament coming up next week so I decided to try that. Tougher list than average level maybe unless I'm totally off with what's good with orks. Anyway took my evil-sun(trike, weirdboy, 2x10 grots, 30xboyz w/big choppa, 3 deff dread with 3xccw+skorcha), death skull(big mek w/SAG, kunning but brutal), weirdboy, 3x10 grots) and bad moon(weirdboy, big mek w/MA &kff, 30xgrots, 11xgrots, 10xgrots, 15xloota, 10xtank busta) battallions with 3 KMK's spread around in individual units.

First time I would be facing adeptus mechanicus! I think he's also bit of a noob which explains couple odd moves he did. Anyway he had dominion, enginseers, 2 sniper squads, I think 3 other infantry squads with 18" assault weapons, 4 dragoons, 3 onagers(1 with AA weapon, 2 with big freeeem zappa thing), 2 castellans with 18 S6 -2 shots ech when they lock down. Oh and 2 warglaives. As no Cawl it was obviously styggies of -1 to hit and he also had always in cover cantiple on first turn.

We got the 3 cards that are always discarded at the start. I NEARLY got first turn but he seized the initiave. With 2 deep strikes, warlord(whom I would be able to redeploy anyway so could use it as null deployment) and tons of grot units he basically had deployed all his army when I put in real stuff. Oh and KMK's were pretty insignificant deployments as well.

I screwed up with kunning but brutal and rather than 30 bad moon grots I shuffled to left 10 bad moon grots thinking I would still be relocating lootas there. Stupid. I also put up warlord to position to see both his groups forgetting he had 2 units with sniper rifles(S7 d3 wound ones with mortals on 6 to wound...). This cost life of warlord. Dakkabots went to lockdown mode and fired 36 shots at 30 grots. I forgot 5++ and lost half. He also charged with dragoons killing couple more and the KFF mek. Oops. Stupid mistakes all around from me. Warglaive #1 and freeeem beams ended up costing me 2 KMK's. Curiously another warglaive stayed behind. I even verified that was intentional. He said 30 boyz were worrying. I still think he should have moved ahead and put pressure with that too.

Ork T1. I mostly stayed put. With right flank basically smashed into big hole not much I COULD do. Lootas also were now in convenient spot seeing the dragoons so no need to move and the hill and big LOS blocking thing in center meant dakkabots don't see them nor does anything. Tank bustas moved ahead, trike moved next to warglaive. I figured I didn't want that thing close to lootas so prefer trading off trike to warglaive. Fist of gork to that. Shooting. More dakka to lootas that fired at dragoons. After smoke settled 1 was left standing. Bwahaha. This was better than I had hoped so I opted not to use show off but instead use it with tank bustas. With them, wartrike and KMK I got tons of hits to the warglaive but RIS kept it mostly alive. He spent pretty much all his good luck here. I charged in with trike and finished it off though. 7 S9 attacks did the trick.

AM 2: Lone dragoon dealt with weirdboy and runtherd that had been struggling to get anywhere. Shooting he blew out all the bad moon grots left with grot screen saving tank bustas from dakkabots. Warglaive #2 moved in and killed trike. I think I can live with this trade off. All in all so far so good. I had lost bad moon grots sooner than I expected but he had lost warglaive, most of dragoons and I had reinforcements coming.

Ork T2: Again keeping mostly back. Lootas climbed to hill to get some LOS. Grots used to ensure dragoon ain't getting anywhere near lootas. Tank bustas moving forward to warglaive. Deep strike. Deff dreads went next to dakkabots. I later noted this was his big mistake. He should have used some of the infantry to screen these 2 fellows. Boyz went next to warglaive and preparing to charge squad of infantry that were on objective he had defend and I had secure. In magic weirdboy perilled casting super smite for 3 wounds to warglaive. Shooting. More dakka to lootas who fired at infantry squad in center killing 7 in total plus another from another squad when in show off(need to check do I need to roll shots before splitting or after. I went for worse for me and after) I split between two squads. 9 lootas managed to kill just 1...Tank bustas and KMK blew out warglaive. Charge. Boyz charged and wiped off infantry squad preventing 2 VP for him and giving me 1. Big. With deff dreads not wanting to risk giving too much 36 S6 -2 shots I decided to use ramming speed for first. Rolling 3, 3 and 1 was glad I did. Reroll that 1 and made it taking 1 wound in return. Other 2 then made charges. First whiffed in attacks, 2nd took out dakkabot. He used strategem to autoblow up causing 2 wounds to dakkabot and his warlord and 2(already injured)+1+3 to my deff dreads. 3rd one then chopped last one to pieces.

AM T3. End looming. He tried to deal with my deff dreads and did take down one of the ones with 3 wounds. Also killed few boyz but all in all he whiffed almost every single crucial to hit roll here. 4 snipers hitting on 3+ vs my last weirdboy(with 2 wounds in) all miss. Freeem guns shot 3 times and missed all etc...

Ork T3. Good maelstrom cards so time to kill stuff. Deff dread #1 moved next to infantry squad. Second one next to warlord. Boyz toward onager and enginseer. Magic I da jumped tank bustas next to onager. Shooting. KMK blew out the last dragoon, tank bustas caused 9/11 wounds to onager. Lootas I had used more dakka(leaving just 1CP) and fired at the squad next to deff dread killing all 10. If even 1 had left I would have not even killed with deff dread as I had "opponent fail morale check" maelstrom card. Other deff dread flamed warlord and charged slicing it up. Boyz charged enginseer causing 1 wound and then nob took down onager. At this point opponent gave up with enginseer, 2 onagers and 2 sniper squads left. I had commanding victory point lead and he was going to struggle to avoid wipe out.

His mistakes were warglaive held back and lack of screens for dakkabot giving deff dreads easy time dealing with them. Without them I would have struggled to deal with them. Good usage of snipers from him though. They were very annoying because of importance of weirdboys.

Not sure how much one can draw conclusions from my army. Mechboys aren't all that strong codex and he was fairly rookie(I think) with not optimized list. Let's not be too optimistic when going to that competive tournament! But need to avoid mistake in deployment and redeployment like I did here. Cost me that 30 grot squad, weirdboy and KFF mek for nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I need to airbrush some simple colours for some movement trays to ease up identifying different clan grots...

the_scotsman wrote:

GreenTidePackers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

GreenTidePackers wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sluggaloo wrote:
Asides from the free burnas, kommandos still just seem stronger for a point less. There's no reason not to deploy both kommandos and stormboyz in reserves, so the stormboyz' mobility is negated, and kommandos are more durable+hit harder in cover. Since the changes to flying assault units no longer ignoring vertical movement in charges I think kommandos are maybe our best bet for tying up ruinscampers

I just don't see the need for stormboyz, I have 20 of them as they're easily my favourite infantry models from gw period. Only case I see using them is in a big blob of 30 to add more oomph to a kommando deepstrike.

T1 charge, more likely T2 charge for stormboyz deployed nromally.

And then you're risking them getting gunned off the board before they do anything. You have a CP-Free in-built deepstrike which makes them invulnerable to anything other than auspex-scan style stratagems.

I look at it the other way. Youre paying only 1 point more per model for more versatility. You have the option to deploy stormboys and hit pretty much any deployment turn1 if you want to. You can also take kunning but brutal and either re deploploy them in reserve or deploy them out of LoS. ive taken stormboys or kommandos every game so far since dex (around 10) and have gotten way more value out of stormboys than i have kommandos.

Similar to the discussion on KBB's and some other units, stormboyz perform much better in more casual games where the tempo is not "Game basically over turn 2". In the current pace of tournament play, where turn 3-4 is basically endgame mopup and all the action happens turn 1-2, stormboyz are functionally identical to kommandos because both will deep strike, both will charge, do their thing, and it is expected that they are either dead, or your army has swept the field and they're just mopping up.

in casual games where a unit of T4 6+ models might survive a turn, stormboyz do offer increased flexibility the turn after they arrive.

dont get me wrong, i think kommandos are solid too but i mean, that argument is pretty much why you would bring stormboys. If a tournament style game is decided in the first 2 turns, why wouldnt you want an option that can be flexed to having 20+ models always making a turn 1 charge with 4 attacks each. Vs kommandos where they would very easily DS in and fail a charge, even if they do survive, they dont get any value until turn 3. the only possible argument you can make for kommandos over stormboys is if you value late game board control since kommandos can be brought in via MSU. other than that, stormboys can also be reserved. On top of that, storm boys have a stronger gimmick than kommandos. you can hide a smaller stormboy unit and position them for mobing up with a large resrved unit. Getting into an adventagous position with a 14m +d6 is pretty easy and pretty much guarantees a charge with a large unit of stormboys. Stormboys have much more flexibility than kommandos. ill gladly pay the 1ppm premium on a model that offers more flexibility for a tournament list.

1) stormboys dont get +1A at 20 models, only Boyz have that as an ability. If they did get that, I'd agree that their 30-man unit cap would allow them to perform that role quite nicely in evil sunz.

2) we're assuming evil sunz I'm guessing because that increases their average threat range significantly to allow for a reasonable turn 1 charge (13"+7" advance+8" charge average vs 12+6+7, puts their average threat range at 28" vs 25" - pretty important if your no mans land is 24".) Evil sunz deep strikers have a 75% chance of getting in off deep strike, which is pretty phenomenal.

3) Stormboyz move 12"+6", not 14"+D6. You're thinking of warbikes.

Charge first turn with evil sunz stormboyz I'll grant is definitely pretty easy. And I'd say the best use case for them as you said is take a large mob, wait to deploy them until the VERY last unit put down, set them down right on the line, see who gets the first turn. If it's you, and your opponent has placed decent amounts of models down such that a turn 1 charge is useful - leave them there and do that. If your opponent is going first or if they have deployed a screen to make the turn 1 charge not worth it, zoop them off the board with Kunning But Brutal and deep strike them. That is a use case, and it's why they're not straight up "bad tier".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

Well that pretty much puts that argument to rest.


As for stormboyz vs kommandos.. what's the point of stormboyz now?

I guess where the index is banned Stormboyz are still relevant obj grabber?

Souped up index kommandoes with 2 burnas, bc/pk nob, Tankbusta Bombs have taken over the role of both burnas and stormboys and yet are still not ultra competitive. They are good and have a decent role of backfield ruin clearing/artillery clearing units but are not a must take unit.

I also don’t buy the idea that stormboys are much more flexible... they have a bit more movement. However they lose out on weaker saves, weaker wounding in ruins, weaker weapon options (no burnas or Tankbusta Bombs) and cost more! If you are avoiding evil suns detachment then sure stormboys are better as kommandos have a harder time making the charge they need but I’d take evil suns kommandos anyday over evilsun/Goff/deathskulls storm boyz. And Goff/deathskulls stormboys are decent!

Goff stormboyz do get boss zag, who is a nice little character with his various buffs - IIRC, Zag is not restricted to the goffs warlord trait, so he can take Kunnin But Brutal and pull off the reserve-yoink trick on himself for free (plus the large unit of stormboyz you took him with).

The large unit of stormboyz is morale immune, and good for providing Mob Rule to your nearby squads, even though it doesn't get Green Tide. 59% chance to get in off DS is nothing to sneeze at even if it's not phenomenal at 75.

+1 attack from warpath, 14m bc evilsunz. one 19 unit of stormboys have opened holes in every game ive played and i dont exactly have casual friends. they offer so much reliability with the ability to keep them safe with kunnin but brutal all for 135 points .cant tell you how manty times if finished off a unit i shot at or tapped a tank or just deleted a unit. it also does one of two things, makes your opponent have to deploy for the possibility of these things getting to him turn 1 or they dont realize just how fast they are and you punish them.

What is preventing your opponent from just wiping them?

I constantly get my stormboyz shot off the board by noise marines, wind riders or pink horrors...

"Hiding out of LOS" rarely meshes well with first turn assaults.

With kunning but brutal he can put them out of LOS if he goes 2nd. If he goes 1st they are ready to do 1st turn charge.

Huh, haven't thought about that.

I love that warlord trait. Albeit I use that mostly for lootas/tank bustas. Put them in position to shoot, if I go 2nd head into safety instead(rather than risk da jump failing T1 if I put them out of LOS to start with).

edit: Q is if you can use that to put them into reserve instead when you redeploy them?

There are plenty of decent ork units.
No one said stormboys aren’t decent..
They however aren’t very competitive.
Even a 20man squad of Goff stormboys aren’t that great at offense while being really weak defensively.
They are simply much faster boyz that cost more but with less options.
Take souped up index evilsun komandos
You are not playing with strong competitor players if they get trapped into combat with stormboys turn1.

tneva82 wrote:
edit: Q is if you can use that to put them into reserve instead when you redeploy them?

I don't have time to look right know, but IIRC there was a FAQ about that for a similar trait (maybe eldar?).

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
edit: Q is if you can use that to put them into reserve instead when you redeploy them?

I don't have time to look right know, but IIRC there was a FAQ about that for a similar trait (maybe eldar?).

Right you were. Not trait but strategem for eldars but as working is identical pretty clear no. Too bad. That would be neat trick for stormboyz. Only ? is that there it was combining 2 strategems. Maybe "no" is because of wording of webway strategem. Would need to check that and deep strike rules wording.

edit: both are "during deployment" so as trait/the eldar strategem are not activated during deployment guess that's pretty much clear no.

gungo wrote:
There are plenty of decent ork units.
No one said stormboys aren’t decent..
They however aren’t very competitive.
Even a 20man squad of Goff stormboys aren’t that great at offense while being really weak defensively.
They are simply much faster boyz that cost more but with less options.
Take souped up index evilsun komandos
You are not playing with strong competitor players if they get trapped into combat with stormboys turn1.

I disagree entirely, I think there's easily a place for stormboyz in a competitive list.

Frame it up this way: I'm making a tournament ork list using the lootabomb strategy. For a cost of roughly 300pts with the same numbers of troops, HQs etc, I can up my Evil Sunz detachment from Battalion to Brigade with 3 min squads of stomboyz and 3 min squads of kommandos and I can bump my Bad Moonz from Battalion to Spearhead.

Heavy Support with mek gunz is basically a free slot, and I'm taking two slots of lootas anyway for the "orkstellan" so then I just need to fill one heavy slot in either bad moonz or evil sunz to get 3 extra CP at game start. Plenty of competitive options there: Evil Sunz gorkanaut, Bad Moonz Morkanaut, Evil Sunz bonebreaka, just a random index Kannon.

IMO there is no better cheap Evil Sunz fast attack unit you can take to fill a brigade than min stormboyz. Alone they're piss poor, but dropping them en masse turn 2 is nearly the punch of a second da jump squad.

non-competitive tournament play they've got tricks as well. The 25 blob having the option to shoot the table for a guaranteed turn 1 charge is pretty fun. I'd take them as Goffs personally because I think Zag is underrated and if your opponent deploys cocky on the line I don't think it matters much if you're evil sunz or not, you're getting there. Shame about Zagstruks warlord trait but just make anyone else the warlord - the only special character who should ever be warlord is snikrot anyway for I Got A Plan Ladz. Maybe Zhardsnark because he gets Speed Freek.

the_scotsman wrote:

Frame it up this way: I'm making a tournament ork list using the lootabomb strategy. For a cost of roughly 300pts with the same numbers of troops, HQs etc, I can up my Evil Sunz detachment from Battalion to Brigade with 3 min squads of stomboyz and 3 min squads of kommandos and I can bump my Bad Moonz from Battalion to Spearhead.

Umm...Battallion to spearhead? What's so good about degrading. You would go from 13 CP to 16 CP. Okay nice enough but that's lots of tax for 3CP.

non-competitive tournament play they've got tricks as well. The 25 blob having the option to shoot the table for a guaranteed turn 1 charge is pretty fun. I'd take them as Goffs personally because I think Zag is underrated and if your opponent deploys cocky on the line I don't think it matters much if you're evil sunz or not, you're getting there. Shame about Zagstruks warlord trait but just make anyone else the warlord - the only special character who should ever be warlord is snikrot anyway for I Got A Plan Ladz. Maybe Zhardsnark because he gets Speed Freek.

If you are aiming for T1 charge evil sun is way to go. Big difference between 18+2d6 vs 21+2d6 charge ranges. First one isn't charging up anywhere reliably T1 if you go first or opponent doesn't move up closer.Oh and rolling 5 or less isn't "no chance" even with rerolls and seriously expecting enemy to play like a noob is pretty optimistic.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Frame it up this way: I'm making a tournament ork list using the lootabomb strategy. For a cost of roughly 300pts with the same numbers of troops, HQs etc, I can up my Evil Sunz detachment from Battalion to Brigade with 3 min squads of stomboyz and 3 min squads of kommandos and I can bump my Bad Moonz from Battalion to Spearhead.

Umm...Battallion to spearhead? What's so good about degrading. You would go from 13 CP to 16 CP. Okay nice enough but that's lots of tax for 3CP.

non-competitive tournament play they've got tricks as well. The 25 blob having the option to shoot the table for a guaranteed turn 1 charge is pretty fun. I'd take them as Goffs personally because I think Zag is underrated and if your opponent deploys cocky on the line I don't think it matters much if you're evil sunz or not, you're getting there. Shame about Zagstruks warlord trait but just make anyone else the warlord - the only special character who should ever be warlord is snikrot anyway for I Got A Plan Ladz. Maybe Zhardsnark because he gets Speed Freek.

If you are aiming for T1 charge evil sun is way to go. Big difference between 18+2d6 vs 21+2d6 charge ranges. First one isn't charging up anywhere reliably T1 if you go first or opponent doesn't move up closer.Oh and rolling 5 or less isn't "no chance" even with rerolls and seriously expecting enemy to play like a noob is pretty optimistic.

I don't think min squads that deep strike for free are particularly "tax" personally - the more costly heavy slot is something I'd most likely put in my list anyway (almost every hard-hitter you tellyport in as evil sunz is Heavy Support already) and really to me it's a simple trade of 300pts for 3CP. I am down with that for any army as CP-hungry as orks.

Watched an ork battle report vs Tallarn guard. Ork player went second but used a stratagem I think i it was called prepared positions?? everything counts as being in cover for first turn?? where is that from?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Watched an ork battle report vs Tallarn guard. Ork player went second but used a stratagem I think i it was called prepared positions?? everything counts as being in cover for first turn?? where is that from?

Latest FAQ, everyone gets it. Yet another reason why I'm unimpressed by Blood Axes.

Cool! seems very handy! Blood axes surely got a bit of a shaft. GW seems to have always favored evil suns in terms of rules. But blood axes will almost ALWAYS strike first and can be some cheeky shenanigans with retreat shoot while another unit charges in and back and forth. I think Blood axe shoota boyz are REALLY good for this reason. Also blood axe bikes are hard to kill.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Cool! seems very handy! Blood axes surely got a bit of a shaft. GW seems to have always favored evil suns in terms of rules. But blood axes will almost ALWAYS strike first and can be some cheeky shenanigans with retreat shoot while another unit charges in and back and forth. I think Blood axe shoota boyz are REALLY good for this reason. Also blood axe bikes are hard to kill.

Blood Axes are fine for casual games. Take Snikrot with a big gaggle of kommandos to deep strike and attack a flank, and I would take a bunch of the 24" range band hit-and-run type buggies, Skrapjet Dragsta and Boosta-Blasta in particular. I think warbikes will struggle to use the kultur because of their 18" shooting range.

They're fluffy, a lot like the Goffs, who encourage an army build setup that is VERY "Classic Goffs" but they're not tournament-optimal IMO.

My next casual game is definitely going to be a classic goff green tide build with a green tide with Ghazzy, Painboy, Weirdboy, KFF big mek, and Waagh Banner Nob with the Lucky Stikk just charging up the center.

It might not be competitive but it'll be awesome!

Why are lootas so mid tier in the rainbow table on page 1?

I know they require dumping a bunch of strats into them to truly shine, but seeing as they can get truly off-the-chart anti-everything firepower just sticking them in mid tier is a bit weird.

I think they should be teal or green. We'll be seeing them in a lot (if not most) competitive lists, which you can't say for units you've ranked higher like the wazbom or some of the buggies.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Why are lootas so mid tier in the rainbow table on page 1?

I know they require dumping a bunch of strats into them to truly shine, but seeing as they can get truly off-the-chart anti-everything firepower just sticking them in mid tier is a bit weird.

I think they should be teal or green. We'll be seeing them in a lot (if not most) competitive lists, which you can't say for units you've ranked higher like the wazbom or some of the buggies.

Once the results come in I am sure they will move up, but right now there are far too many Ifs-and-buts for them to be considered anything but mid teir.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Why are lootas so mid tier in the rainbow table on page 1?

I know they require dumping a bunch of strats into them to truly shine, but seeing as they can get truly off-the-chart anti-everything firepower just sticking them in mid tier is a bit weird.

I think they should be teal or green. We'll be seeing them in a lot (if not most) competitive lists, which you can't say for units you've ranked higher like the wazbom or some of the buggies.

Good question especially as so far tournament results with them has been good.

Dark eldars are bit of hard counter though. If you go second 5/6 times they just die. As eldar soup is so prelevant that does limit tournament results a bit

FYI just for the moment: I wrote up the clan-by-clan analysis that just got added to the front page over the last couple days, but I got mixed up between "Teal" and "Dark Blue" and only caught myself when I got down to Goffs.

For the moment, in the Freeboota, Bad Moonz, Snakebites, Blood Axes, and Deathskullz sections, all ratings of Teal (Tier 2) should be Blue (Tier 3) and vice versa. For example I rated the Snakebites kultur as Tier 3 but it's currently displaying as Tier 2.

My bad, guys. I also refrained from giving the clans an "overall rating" because I believe you select clans for different reasons in different parts of your lists. For example Bad Moonz would have an artificially high "overall rating" because their stratagem is so clearly amazing, but you really want to just dip into them to get your loota/Tankbusta mob up bomb.

First post updated with Klan rankings by the_scotsman, as usual with some changes by me. I hopefully cleaned up the color mess-up as well

 DoomMouse wrote:
Why are lootas so mid tier in the rainbow table on page 1?

I know they require dumping a bunch of strats into them to truly shine, but seeing as they can get truly off-the-chart anti-everything firepower just sticking them in mid tier is a bit weird.

I think they should be teal or green. We'll be seeing them in a lot (if not most) competitive lists, which you can't say for units you've ranked higher like the wazbom or some of the buggies.

The rainbow table considered all units without clan traits and/or stratagems. Outside of Bad Moons lootaz are not that great.

What Kultur(s) and HQ choices would y'all suggest for a small army (or detachment in a larger army) based around stormboyz, deffkoptas, chinorks, and possibly bikes?

Evil Suns, of course
Da red 'uns go fasta.

HQs of choice would be biker warboss, deffkilla wartrike or Zardsnark da Rippa (FW).

 Jidmah wrote:
First post updated with Klan rankings by the_scotsman, as usual with some changes by me. I hopefully cleaned up the color mess-up as well

 DoomMouse wrote:
Why are lootas so mid tier in the rainbow table on page 1?

I know they require dumping a bunch of strats into them to truly shine, but seeing as they can get truly off-the-chart anti-everything firepower just sticking them in mid tier is a bit weird.

I think they should be teal or green. We'll be seeing them in a lot (if not most) competitive lists, which you can't say for units you've ranked higher like the wazbom or some of the buggies.

The rainbow table considered all units without clan traits and/or stratagems. Outside of Bad Moons lootaz are not that great.

That is true I guess. But I can't imagine that they'll be taken as anything BUT bad moons in comp lists

Coh Magnussen wrote:
What Kultur(s) and HQ choices would y'all suggest for a small army (or detachment in a larger army) based around stormboyz, deffkoptas, chinorks, and possibly bikes?

I like Deffskullz for those units. Lots of potential KMB's in Deffcoptas/Chinorks, and you can take min size stormboy/biker squads with single power klaw nobz to make best use of the rerolls in melee.

BIkes aren't great with deffskullz though.

I'm not sure rating units without considering kultur is relevant. You can easily make 3 detachments with tailored clans, so I have a hard time seeing why you would take lootas outside of Bad Moons for example. Tho lootas are a special case, as it requires designing your entire list around them.

I would like to make a case for a few units:

- Stormboyz: They are "infantry", so eligible for grot shields to protect them turn 1, and they can very easily charge on turn 1. So 30 stormboyz on the edge of deployment screened by grots, plus 40 boyz in the backfield ready to be "da jump"'ed is a pretty scary thing.

- Big meks with KFF are pretty nice when you take an extra min batallion for CP as deathskullz . Clan doesn't matter for the aura, and they can take a KMB (index), for 9 points, Also, mini mek with the deathskull kultur and a KMB is 31 points for a pretty strong shooting option. (Better than a KMK vs T8).

And even boyz are hardly green without traits and strategems. Without evil sun, tellyporta, endless tide and(generously) skarboyz thev would be junk. Already not that usefull. Remove those and what is left?

tneva82 wrote:
And even boyz are hardly green without traits and strategems. Without evil sun, tellyporta, endless tide and(generously) skarboyz thev would be junk. Already not that usefull. Remove those and what is left?

universal stratagems that every clan has access to probably should be considered in the evaluation of units. Assuming that they won't have access to those stratagems is a bit like assuming you won't be taking battleforged detachments to get Obsec and other generic rules, or like assuming that aura generating characters won't have any friendly units around them benefitting from the aura.

"painboyz suck! They just give themselves a 6+++ and otherwise they're a purely worse warboss!"

I don't 100% agree with every decision in the tier list, but my biggest problem with it is when I was evaluating things my tier list was less "this thing is better than that thing and that's better than this other thing" and instead I went with

Auto-Include (I guess this'd be green): Stuff that's so good you have to justify not taking it in your list and you need to have a reason ready to go why you're not putting points into them. Examples: Gretchins for CP, Smashas/Trakktors, at least 1 Weirdboy.

Good (Blue): Stuff that will not make you sad in pretty much any army build. Boyz are a good example here: There are few clans that can't make use of at least one 30 blob of boyz. Other stuff I'd rate "good" would be KMKs, Tankbustas, Skrapjets, Battlewagons/Bonebreakas, Nobz.

Situational (Teal/Yellow): Stuff that can be good/autoinclude level IF you significantly structure your clan/relic/army list choices around inclusion of the unit. This is where I'd stick Lootas, because if they're NOT Bad Moonz clan in a big mobbed up unit and with like 60 gretchins in front of them, then they will not be amazing. But, if they are, there you go. Deffcoptas, specifically with KMBs in Deathskullz. Deff Dreads, specifically either with KMB in Deathskulls or deep striking with Evil Sunz.

Unviable (Red): Units that either don't work, or that always or 99% of the time have a unit in direct competition that does the thing better. Nob bikers, burnas, Grot Tanks, Bubblechukkas, etc.

I find that having a big "tier list" structure like we do in the OP makes more people happy because they can pass units more freely between level 5 and level 6, or level 8 and level 7, and argue whether warbosses should REALLY be yellow or greenish-purple tier, and my tier structure trends more towards a LOT in the middle and a couple things at the very top and very bottom...but I still tend to prefer it because that's what you see in tournaments. The units in the auto-include and usually good tier make up the vast bulk of the armies you see, and occasionally you get someone who figures out a clever trick with an oddball unit that really knocks off peoples socks.

hortsmann wrote:
I'm not sure rating units without considering kultur is relevant. You can easily make 3 detachments with tailored clans, so I have a hard time seeing why you would take lootas outside of Bad Moons for example. Tho lootas are a special case, as it requires designing your entire list around them.

I would like to make a case for a few units:

- Stormboyz: They are "infantry", so eligible for grot shields to protect them turn 1, and they can very easily charge on turn 1. So 30 stormboyz on the edge of deployment screened by grots, plus 40 boyz in the backfield ready to be "da jump"'ed is a pretty scary thing.

- Big meks with KFF are pretty nice when you take an extra min batallion for CP as deathskullz . Clan doesn't matter for the aura, and they can take a KMB (index), for 9 points, Also, mini mek with the deathskull kultur and a KMB is 31 points for a pretty strong shooting option. (Better than a KMK vs T8).

Totally agree with this - klan traits are particularly easy to pick up with weirdboyz and grots which largely don't care which klan they are.

That said though, the first page tier list is awesome - well done for making it!

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
There are plenty of decent ork units.
No one said stormboys aren’t decent..
They however aren’t very competitive.
Even a 20man squad of Goff stormboys aren’t that great at offense while being really weak defensively.
They are simply much faster boyz that cost more but with less options.
Take souped up index evilsun komandos
You are not playing with strong competitor players if they get trapped into combat with stormboys turn1.

I disagree entirely, I think there's easily a place for stormboyz in a competitive list.

Frame it up this way: I'm making a tournament ork list using the lootabomb strategy. For a cost of roughly 300pts with the same numbers of troops, HQs etc, I can up my Evil Sunz detachment from Battalion to Brigade with 3 min squads of stomboyz and 3 min squads of kommandos and I can bump my Bad Moonz from Battalion to Spearhead.

Heavy Support with mek gunz is basically a free slot, and I'm taking two slots of lootas anyway for the "orkstellan" so then I just need to fill one heavy slot in either bad moonz or evil sunz to get 3 extra CP at game start. Plenty of competitive options there: Evil Sunz gorkanaut, Bad Moonz Morkanaut, Evil Sunz bonebreaka, just a random index Kannon.

IMO there is no better cheap Evil Sunz fast attack unit you can take to fill a brigade than min stormboyz. Alone they're piss poor, but dropping them en masse turn 2 is nearly the punch of a second da jump squad.

non-competitive tournament play they've got tricks as well. The 25 blob having the option to shoot the table for a guaranteed turn 1 charge is pretty fun. I'd take them as Goffs personally because I think Zag is underrated and if your opponent deploys cocky on the line I don't think it matters much if you're evil sunz or not, you're getting there. Shame about Zagstruks warlord trait but just make anyone else the warlord - the only special character who should ever be warlord is snikrot anyway for I Got A Plan Ladz. Maybe Zhardsnark because he gets Speed Freek.

Feel free to prove me wrong and have stormboys do well competitively. I don’t see it. I don’t even see index kommandos doing well competitively and I like them better but outside of a token slot filler to tie up backfield units they aren’t exactly amazing.
But hey talk is cheap and there will soon be lots of competitive ork lists placing well of stormboys end up being featured in several lists I’ll be pleasantly surprised. I just don’t see weak defensive units with weak offense relying on poor opponent placement doing anything competitively.
If you want to play around with friends they are decent especially as Goff’s and aren’t a bad unit.

Defensively they are better than boyz though. Offensively maybe bit less yes.

tneva82 wrote:
Defensively they are better than boyz though. Offensively maybe bit less yes.

Aren't they defensively the same, but more expensive, making them defensively worse?

Or am I crazy/stupid and they've sneakily slapped a better save on stormboyz or something?

Maybe you're talking about Kommandos with the 4+ in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
There are plenty of decent ork units.
No one said stormboys aren’t decent..
They however aren’t very competitive.
Even a 20man squad of Goff stormboys aren’t that great at offense while being really weak defensively.
They are simply much faster boyz that cost more but with less options.
Take souped up index evilsun komandos
You are not playing with strong competitor players if they get trapped into combat with stormboys turn1.

I disagree entirely, I think there's easily a place for stormboyz in a competitive list.

Frame it up this way: I'm making a tournament ork list using the lootabomb strategy. For a cost of roughly 300pts with the same numbers of troops, HQs etc, I can up my Evil Sunz detachment from Battalion to Brigade with 3 min squads of stomboyz and 3 min squads of kommandos and I can bump my Bad Moonz from Battalion to Spearhead.

Heavy Support with mek gunz is basically a free slot, and I'm taking two slots of lootas anyway for the "orkstellan" so then I just need to fill one heavy slot in either bad moonz or evil sunz to get 3 extra CP at game start. Plenty of competitive options there: Evil Sunz gorkanaut, Bad Moonz Morkanaut, Evil Sunz bonebreaka, just a random index Kannon.

IMO there is no better cheap Evil Sunz fast attack unit you can take to fill a brigade than min stormboyz. Alone they're piss poor, but dropping them en masse turn 2 is nearly the punch of a second da jump squad.

non-competitive tournament play they've got tricks as well. The 25 blob having the option to shoot the table for a guaranteed turn 1 charge is pretty fun. I'd take them as Goffs personally because I think Zag is underrated and if your opponent deploys cocky on the line I don't think it matters much if you're evil sunz or not, you're getting there. Shame about Zagstruks warlord trait but just make anyone else the warlord - the only special character who should ever be warlord is snikrot anyway for I Got A Plan Ladz. Maybe Zhardsnark because he gets Speed Freek.

Feel free to prove me wrong and have stormboys do well competitively. I don’t see it. I don’t even see index kommandos doing well competitively and I like them better but outside of a token slot filler to tie up backfield units they aren’t exactly amazing.
But hey talk is cheap and there will soon be lots of competitive ork lists placing well of stormboys end up being featured in several lists I’ll be pleasantly surprised. I just don’t see weak defensive units with weak offense relying on poor opponent placement doing anything competitively.
If you want to play around with friends they are decent especially as Goff’s and aren’t a bad unit.

Depends on what you define as "Well." If you don't think "Supplying extra CPs for a low cost and providing a small but measurable benefit leading them to be included in a competitive list" count as "doing well" then I'm sure they won't do well. I'm not expecting stormboy-centric lists to be taking the competitive meta by storm. But then again, I'm betting that you would accept that definition of "doing well" when applied to, say, 30 guardsmen and 2 CCs.

My well is simple; If they are placing anywhere competitively outside of Min squad slot filers.

The fact is stormboys don’t provide any meaningful benefit. Min evil sun squads that die to screens aren’t feared and larger 20 man expensive evil sun squads don’t have any real bite. They don’t have a role other then hey my guys move fast! Please dont shoot at them!

Even guardsman don’t have that issue as they are regularly used and the basis for an entire detachment that fills the role of a cheap screen that has a decent offensive bite. They are effective shooters and screens. They are like Gretchin and orks rolled into one unit and likely to go up in points because of this effectiveness and strong competitive use.

Stormboyz are better defensively because they have a higher movement, and fly. Which means it is easier to get them out of los.

They are also able to deepstrike so they can be immune to damage until turn 2.

Stormboyz are the only big unit in the codex that is fast enough to accompany a da jump'ed blob of boyz turn 1, while being safe at the same time if you don't go first thanks to grot shields.

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

Stormboyz are one of the units I feel are Good-very good but because of a duplicate role arent as optimal as before. Either due to the new kultures or buffs to units from index to codex. Including them in an army would either due to being a fluff choice (models or lore... of which stormboyz and zagstrukk have in spades) or because the player has the models available. In the case of stromboyz.. many people have the models in excess because they were so competitive in passed few years. Might not be the new hip trend but still a rock solid choice.

Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

gungo wrote:
My well is simple; If they are placing anywhere competitively outside of Min squad slot filers.

The fact is stormboys don’t provide any meaningful benefit. Min evil sun squads that die to screens aren’t feared and larger 20 man expensive evil sun squads don’t have any real bite. They don’t have a role other then hey my guys move fast! Please dont shoot at them!

Even guardsman don’t have that issue as they are regularly used and the basis for an entire detachment that fills the role of a cheap screen that has a decent offensive bite. They are effective shooters and screens. They are like Gretchin and orks rolled into one unit and likely to go up in points because of this effectiveness and strong competitive use.

"this unit is bad unless it's used as a min sized slot filler"

"this other unit that is used as a min sized slot filler is good"

the loyal 32 is not taken because of their "offensive bite". They're the cheapest CP-generating detachment in the imperium bubble, and CPs are good. The usefulness they provide is sitting in front of your army and dying first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hortsmann wrote:
Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

I do wish that the whole "I can't use this unit viably in my army where I'm investing all my points into the orkstellan loota bomb" thing would die down a little bit.

Yes, pretty much anything you slot into your list that isn't directly supporting your 425 points of CP-hoovering double shooting lootas is going to be performing suboptimally and on few CPs/strats and that will rule out many options.

That doesn't make those options bad.

I actually was supporting the usefullness of stormboyz, just stating that they fit in a different style army.

If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

Space wolves murderous hurricane. Cast value 5 18" range target whoever. Great for going after large mobs. Roll dice equal to the number of models and 6s are mortals.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

Space wolves murderous hurricane. Cast value 5 18" range target whoever. Great for going after large mobs. Roll dice equal to the number of models and 6s are mortals.

Yeah, that's a good one. But even on a 25 loota unit it's roughly 4 of them dead. It's bad for sure, but not the unit anywhere near depleted enough to be useless.

Something like 2 burna.bommas flying over a 25 man unit will on average kill 10 of them from mortal wounds and still have some shots that they might actually be able to pump into the unit as well since they are behind it and the opponent might not have shielded them from all angles. Then on the Loota players' turn they basically either have to ignore the burna-bommers because they'll explode or they have to run away/da jump the lootas (basically forcing them to use more dakka as well, although that's not a big drawback) For 264 points that might not be a bad deal

I'm not sure if that's a super viable tactic or anything, just trying to do some creative thinking in regards to what one might expect to face.

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
My well is simple; If they are placing anywhere competitively outside of Min squad slot filers.

The fact is stormboys don’t provide any meaningful benefit. Min evil sun squads that die to screens aren’t feared and larger 20 man expensive evil sun squads don’t have any real bite. They don’t have a role other then hey my guys move fast! Please dont shoot at them!

Even guardsman don’t have that issue as they are regularly used and the basis for an entire detachment that fills the role of a cheap screen that has a decent offensive bite. They are effective shooters and screens. They are like Gretchin and orks rolled into one unit and likely to go up in points because of this effectiveness and strong competitive use.

"this unit is bad unless it's used as a min sized slot filler"

"this other unit that is used as a min sized slot filler is good"

the loyal 32 is not taken because of their "offensive bite". They're the cheapest CP-generating detachment in the imperium bubble, and CPs are good. The usefulness they provide is sitting in front of your army and dying first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hortsmann wrote:
Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

I do wish that the whole "I can't use this unit viably in my army where I'm investing all my points into the orkstellan loota bomb" thing would die down a little bit.

Yes, pretty much anything you slot into your list that isn't directly supporting your 425 points of CP-hoovering double shooting lootas is going to be performing suboptimally and on few CPs/strats and that will rule out many options.

That doesn't make those options bad.

that’s not what I says at all. So please don’t put words in my mouth because you own a bunch of models you are trying to justify. Guardsmen with orders are both decent shooting and Better screen. They are widely considered underpriced claiming they are Min slot fillers just to justify your own stormboys preference is complete bull.

As I said play with your stormboys all you want. They don’t suck. They just arent competitive so stop getting your feelings hurt until we actually see them place somewhere in a competitive list. I’m still using kommandos and I don’t think they are amazing either and I’m not arguing with everyone who thinks kommandos are bad. Arguing with people who don’t agree with you tends to be your schtick. But regardless orks are already placing well and there isn’t a stormboy unit in sight.

Gitdakka wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

Da Krunch. Charge 8. D6 per model in any unit within 18". 6s generate Mortal Wounds. Roll 2d6 at the end, and if 10+, do the same thing again.

Charge is a bit high, honestly, but it's got great value against Nidz and other Orkz, who love to use blobs of models. If you keep inside Waagh Energy Range, it'll have a WC 5, which is pretty doable. I used it in a game to take out over half a Gargoyle unit. Loses some of its value if you're using Warp'eadz, as a good double Smite will do roughly the same (2d3 or 2d6 with 2 10+s vs 5 MWs on average with Da Krunch on a 30 man unit), but you could always Da Krunch THEN Smite for maximum possible MWs.

Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

You CANNOT double Smite with one character.

You can Smite twice with two separate characters, but not the same one twice.

Ah. Well, more in favor of a Da Krunch/Smite combo then.

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Or the baby squiggoth for that matter.

To support the_scotsman, Nick Nanavati played with stormboyz jumping out of a battlewagon in his first streamed game with the codex. This guy doesn't muck around with low-tier garbage in his lists, it's very likely they fit the competitive bill in some fashion.

I also heard on chapter tactics podcast that Nick was talking about kommandos being a must-bring in armies. Potentially replacing his stormboyz? Unsure. Considering Steve Pampreen (winner of Renegade Open) thinks the kommandos in hist list are an integral part of his army and why he won his close games, they are probably also competitive.

two side notes:
1) Boyz are auto-includes, mark my words you will not see a winning list without a boy in it.
2) Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Garg squig is still great and also very hard to find these days because FW no longer has a working mold for it. If you can get one for a good price id urge you to snatch it up because it may be a long time befoe you can find another one for a decent price.

I personally like sotmrboyz and the only thing that I see as a real drawback with them is that the "Unstoppable green tide" strat is boyz only. Kommandos are probably a bit better, especially if you're using index still, but those stormboyz models are so nice!

I've tried a 30-man stormboyz unit with a big choppa in it, that's 275 points of boyz with a free deepstrike if you want. It's good, I'm not sure it's great. As MSU slot fillers both kommandos and stormboyz are pretty nice though.

That CP free deepstrike btw is nice. I'm leaning more and more away from tellyporting boyz as I find out I'm using CP's by bucketloads. Meanwhile walking boyz by feet is pretty much suicide

Also good for brigade filling in no-index period. With help of them for example following is possible:

ES brigade:

2 warboss w/power klaw
weirdboy
3x30 boyz w/klaw
3x10 grots
3x5 kommandos(butt naked. No burna due to no index)
3x5 stormboyz
3xsmasha gun

BM battallion

2xweirdboy
3x10 grots
15xloota
10xloota

So full loota star, bit thin on grot screens. 20 CP(so more than my usual tripple battallion), 90 boyz(1 or 2 to tellyport, 1 or 2 da jump or distraction carnifex rushing forward hoping enemy deals with them rather than loota star. Kommandos and stormboyz both aiming to come T2 or T3 as objectives require or deal with stragglers/crippled units.

 flandarz wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

Da Krunch. Charge 8. D6 per model in any unit within 18". 6s generate Mortal Wounds. Roll 2d6 at the end, and if 10+, do the same thing again.

Charge is a bit high, honestly, but it's got great value against Nidz and other Orkz, who love to use blobs of models. If you keep inside Waagh Energy Range, it'll have a WC 5, which is pretty doable. I used it in a game to take out over half a Gargoyle unit. Loses some of its value if you're using Warp'eadz, as a good double Smite will do roughly the same (2d3 or 2d6 with 2 10+s vs 5 MWs on average with Da Krunch on a 30 man unit), but you could always Da Krunch THEN Smite for maximum possible MWs.

I think Da Krunch is heavily undervalued. I have an identical power for my Death Guard psykers (Plague Wind) and it has become an invaluable tool for my army.
First of all, Da Krunch is not locked into targeting the closest unit. You can pick the best target every turn and have a green fist come down for them. I have found this to be an invaluable tool against not only units with 30+ models, but also units of 8-10 models which are hard to shift like guardsmen in cover, daemons(plague bearers, blood letters, horrors) or units focused on exploiting stratagems with as many models as possible, like DA Helblaster blobs, dark reapers or (just in!) lootas. Last but not least, chipping off the last wound of a warlord or support characters on a 6+ isn't the worst thing to do. The ability to "smite" whatever you want justifies the slightly lower damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:
Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

We are considering stratagems, just not the clan-specific ones. In general, the first post is aimed at people who don't actually know a lot about orks. Once you start getting to know orks (or even start attending tournaments), you will not be referencing the pretty rainbow table with obscure color ratings for army decisions, but follow the discussion of the thread, blogs or post army lists.

A brand new goff player will not get a lot of value out of buying 7 boxes of lootas, while a bad moons player will get his value back from the "ork castallan" - assuming he is using the stratagems correctly. That's why this combo belongs with the Bad Moons clan description, and not the units. I'll happily add a better description if you provide one

Mekboy Workshop next to a Stompa = 18 Deff Kannon Shots turn two.

I am really surprised our Stratagems didn't somehow turn the Stompa's 48-72 inch shooting up.

You could also use the Supa Gatler at 18 shots 3ish times, With more Dakka, and if you are lucky maybe you have a freeboota bubble or a Bad Moon kultur

 Jidmah wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:
Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

We are considering stratagems, just not the clan-specific ones. In general, the first post is aimed at people who don't actually know a lot about orks. Once you start getting to know orks (or even start attending tournaments), you will not be referencing the pretty rainbow table with obscure color ratings for army decisions, but follow the discussion of the thread, blogs or post army lists.

A brand new goff player will not get a lot of value out of buying 7 boxes of lootas, while a bad moons player will get his value back from the "ork castallan" - assuming he is using the stratagems correctly. That's why this combo belongs with the Bad Moons clan description, and not the units. I'll happily add a better description if you provide one

A Goff army can totally feature a Bad Moon batallion of lootas. Is the OP designed for a new player wanting to play a fluffy list in his local shop, or for competitve?

Also, what about competitive players looking for how they should play against orks? They'll look at the first few tier of units, won't see lootas in here and get obliterated on their next game because they have no clue about what they do.

I'm not saying they should be green, because I don't believe they fit in every type of potentially competitive list. But they should be somewhere in the top of the OP, maybe with their own color, for everyone to easily see what is possibly going to be the go-to ork competitive army.

Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.



On a side note, can we talk about deployment? I feel that, right now more than ever, is fundamental how to deploy at best out units in order to be safe going 2nd or even planning it.
Like somebody said here that the best way to deploy Stormboyz is to wait last so you can decide if push for T1 charge or DS them I thought was a good advice because I usually deploy my DS units first in order to have some advantage on my opponent .
I know it might be hard to discuss but ms paint and prop pics usually helps

 Rismonite wrote:
Mekboy Workshop next to a Stompa = 18 Deff Kannon Shots turn two.

Stompa without=more shots turn 1+turn 2 combined. And frankly whether you make it to turn 2 is dubious. 2/3 outings he has been one shotted. One time he survived with 4 wounds so if orks go 2nd dead before shoots anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.

Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

 Emicrania wrote:
Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.

They can also benefit from the Freeboota +1 to hit as they match very good with Mek Gunz (also for the Loot It stratagem) and from the Deathskulls kultur as well since Wreckers is no Showing Off but still useful, and the re-rolls may help a little too.

hortsmann wrote:
A Goff army can totally feature a Bad Moon batallion of lootas. Is the OP designed for a new player wanting to play a fluffy list in his local shop, or for competitve?

An army featuring Bad Moons would not be a goff army.

Also, what about competitive players looking for how they should play against orks? They'll look at the first few tier of units, won't see lootas in here and get obliterated on their next game because they have no clue about what they do.

I call BS on that. No offense, but if you are using the first post for guidance on winning tournaments, you are not a competitive player. Same thing goes for getting obliterated because you didn't bring lootas.
The first and foremost job of the first post is to prevent an unknowing player from going out and buying Kanz or a Stompa for his army.

I'm not saying they should be green, because I don't believe they fit in every type of potentially competitive list. But they should be somewhere in the top of the OP, maybe with their own color, for everyone to easily see what is possibly going to be the go-to ork competitive army.

There is not yet a section for top tier competitive gaming besides the army lists, feel free to contribute. I also don't think that the meta is done shaking orks through yet, so it might be a bit early for that still.
Any time invested in a raindbow table to reflect competitive army building is, without question, a waste of time. There is more to placing well in tournaments than rating units with a single number between 1 and 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

 Jidmah wrote:

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

Yes. That's why they take up detachment of blood angels for jump captains and detachment of ultramarines for shooty stuff. Basic stuff really. You don't see jump captains claimed as not competive because they require specific chapter though. It just means you use that chapter.

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

Which is why deathstar approach like 25 lootas works. It's our equilavent of lone castellan. That weakness doesn't matter when you have only 1 unit that wants to use strategem anyway.

Strategems drive off armies toward deathstar style but guess that's what GW prefers.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

tneva82 wrote:

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

Which is why deathstar approach like 25 lootas works. It's our equilavent of lone castellan. That weakness doesn't matter when you have only 1 unit that wants to use strategem anyway.

Strategems drive off armies toward deathstar style but guess that's what GW prefers.

I believe it has immediately opened up variety in list building options. Now you want three battalions all the time so you can maximize your use of sweet Stratagems. You want Evil Sunz so you can offer dem poor Deff Dread gitz their first chance at CC in years, you want Bad Moonz so you can turn 25 Lootas into 50 Lootas for a turn or two, and then you probably want Deff Skullz because if you can afford a third threat in yoir list, Wreckers might be nice in a pinch.

Or you can Jump a Warboss footprint into the smallest of places and with a ton of CP assault, assault again, and if he dies in CC somewhere, assault once more.

I really think ES and Bad Moonz are bread/butter and gork/mork.

I think the only Brigaide we might see is a Freeboota brigaide, but I don't know how yet. Edot, I also think it is possible woth the KMB buffs to see a Deffskull Brigade rerolling all those D6 damage rolls

addnid wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

We are very lucky to have 5 klans with rules/strats/etc. which all have such interesting features. I also think snakebites with the CP strat may be of interest, even though it doesn't seem to have much appeal so far. Over time we will see what sticks but unlike other codexes, I am coming up with lists featuring so many different klans !

addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

 greggles wrote:
addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

There is a part of me that wants to run dreadz with four KMB as Deffskullz just to reroll the damage dice. They won't last long anyways I figure damn the self inflicted damage if it hits and wounds I want to turn Damage 1 and 2 into damage 4-6 hopefully

addnid wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

We are very lucky to have 5 klans with rules/strats/etc. which all have such interesting features. I also think snakebites with the CP strat may be of interest, even though it doesn't seem to have much appeal so far. Over time we will see what sticks but unlike other codexes, I am coming up with lists featuring so many different klans !

I'd also like to talk about Big Mek Dede's Dreadmob deffdredd Blasta squadron:
Deathskull Spearhead
HQ: Big mek in mega armour + KFF + KMB + oiler grot + Relic Tools
HS1 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw
HS2 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw
HS3 Dredd + 3KMBs + 1 Dredd Klaw

More or less 400 points of fun, 10 KMB shots of which 4 can be rolled (+ to wound reroll + d6 dmg rerolls as per deathskulls klan rules) and a big mek protecting his klanking piles of shooty junk...

Won't win tourneys but hey, i'm trying this out saturday anyway with an evil sunz bonecrusha battalion and bad moon loota battalion

 greggles wrote:
addnid,
I ran something similar with deathskulls.

Did a game with 2x deff dread with 1 klaw, 1 saw, and 2x kmb's. And another with 3x with the same config (dropped down turn 2).

The first game i made both charges, and the opponent basically conceded (one of the best games I ever played vs a competent player, just everything worked).

Second game, all three missed their charges, and absorbed all the shots with shield drones. :(

Walking three with 3x kmb's each sounds pretty nasty. I think that might be a better fit with badmoonz though, as they could reroll the failed 1's. Might be time to make an awesome quad gun dread for the bad moonz to use.

Deathskull deep striking is going to be pretty risky as it is. As it is you got in first game 33% chance thing and failed both. 2nd game was worse though.

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots? Getting even one is 50-50 proposition. 2 or more? Pretty small...So deathskull does basically that AND allows rolling 1 dice anyway if you get all 2+ AND gives you reroll to wound AND to damage AND 6++. You take bad moon if you roll like 15+ dice and/or plan to use showing off strategem.

ManTube wrote:

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Garg squig is still great and also very hard to find these days because FW no longer has a working mold for it. If you can get one for a good price id urge you to snatch it up because it may be a long time befoe you can find another one for a decent price.

we're ork players... find an appropriately sized dinosaur model and/or dinosaur toy, find a dinosaur skeleton model, cover it in glue, roll it around the ork bitz box and boom squiggoth. (obviously takes some hours of converting but still have seen some great squiggoth conversions, I will probably make one one day.)

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

25 lootas is so good it will become meta for orks. If orks become common AM can counter a bit. Lots of imperial players take 3 infantry squads and 2 CC for the 5 CP at 180 points. They need to add 99 points for 3 mortar HWS to counter orks. Cadians with rerolls to hit them would grots on a 2+. That will average 20 wounds a turn which would be particularly effective against multiple squads if each mortar HWS splits fire into multiple grot units until every one near the lootas takes a casualty. That's particularly good against MSU grots. 4×10 will take 4d3 per turn from runt herders vs 2D3 for 2*20. I'm seeing a lot of ork players go msu on the grots for the CP.

So far my mortars are doing as well as I thought they would. Orks have indirect fire weapons available but other stuff is better so hiding out of LOS seems to work well to keep them alive. If there is any specific counter to mortars it's probably worth discussing here. Against pure IG my best recommendation is the good old fashioned just overrun their entire line.

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

 greggles wrote:

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

I would still arque all the benefits you get from deathskull outweights that ONE wound ;-) Even if you roll 4 1's you get just 1 wound. I don't even worry about that in KMK's. I suffer mortal wound. Bohoo. I think that has really hurt me like once. Other times KMK's would have died anyway even if they hadn't cooked themselves for that wound

edit: Wait a sec rule messup. Different weapons so in case of dread that would be potential 4 MW's. Still too small chance to really factor in.

@greggles: For KMB dredds, Deathskulls (or freebooters but that requires a whole army build around so lets leave that option aside for now) is IMHO the only way to go.

To further @tneva82 's point I'd say you are gonna hit with only one of these KMBs, so gotta ensure the hit manages to wound and the do more than 2 dmg. With bad moons yes, you will be happy when you roll two 1s but what are the odds of that ?

Aside form this, 4 KMBs is a waste of Dredd potential, as keeping at least on dredd klaw means you lose one gak but gain (at the cost of 6 points) you get 3 CC attacks, strengh 12 ap-3 dmg 3 hitting on 3s.

I'll give you my feedback on Big Mek Dede's Dreadmob deffdredd Blasta squadron (and post the whole list if it proves to be a competitively interesting enough concept, if not I won't bother)

 greggles wrote:

Disagree about bad moons though. What's the odds of rolling more than one 1 with even 4 shots?

You've never played vs me I see.

My thoughts. Last sunday, I've had three overcharged plasma guns rolling four ones, killing all of them... after re-rolling five ones the first time around.

However, I agree with tneva. Re-rolling that damage d6 is way better than preventing those wounds.

Aye, I play deathskulls fella. Was just injecting some humor into the discussion. I did have a single lone mek hit twice with one kmb shot. Love it when that happens. I tried all the klans out, deathskulls always for me. Having access to that 6++ makes opponents so salty.

"That's 8 dead boyz"
They have an invuln now
"Oh, that's right"
(Makes 3 saves).
Just 5 dead boys.
"......"

I'll give the triple KMB deff dreads a look. Thanks fellas for all the tips!

If I would go with confirmation bias I would swear off that 6++. Never seems to work

"Okay let's try 20 dice. Not one 6? AARGH!".

As it's rarely big help the big swings don't really register that well. Rolling often lots of dices with no effect starts to stick to your mind better though.

Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Playes against AM, charged and piled in as much I can to block in combat everyone without overwatch, 5 nobz choppa executed every unit they touched, tankbusta dakked tanks, easy

 greggles wrote:
Aye, I play deathskulls fella. Was just injecting some humor into the discussion. I did have a single lone mek hit twice with one kmb shot. Love it when that happens. I tried all the klans out, deathskulls always for me. Having access to that 6++ makes opponents so salty.

"That's 8 dead boyz"
They have an invuln now
"Oh, that's right"
(Makes 3 saves).
Just 5 dead boys.
"......"

I'll give the triple KMB deff dreads a look. Thanks fellas for all the tips!

Boy you are a lot luckier than me with those saves. I rarely make those, must be because they are painted ochre and not lucky blue.
For me deathskulls and dakkax3 so far mostly payed off in overwatch surprisingly. In just 3 games I think I've had rockits hit and wound in overwatch at least 7 times, often in characters too.

Blue for the lucky dice rolls, red for the cheating on move or charge distances (cause red goes faster). So much to doo with orks

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Any reason to run it as anything other then Deathskullz or Evil Sunz? I'm thinking putting a mek with redder armor on a Mek for more MW potential

Okay, So I was thinking of something ever since the leaked vigilus pages were revealed. what if we ran a spearhead of bonecrushas. and outside that we had a battalion with 2 30 man mobs. and 1 grots. one unit gets da jumped. the other teleport to the bonecrusha. this would allow us to get an extra unit closer to the enemy. In addition if that spearhead is evil sunz then the bonecrusha could advance and have +2 inches before the boyz mob got moved up. plus this boyz mob can be wholly within 3" of the bonecrusha. but this would allow an additional 3" in front of the bonecrusha.

only thing i can think is that it only applies to BW and not bonecrushas

vindicare0412 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gargsquig is awesome. Its ~460pts if you dump one of the SupaLobbas for a Killkannon (imo supalobbas are overpriced).

Not sure how good regular squigs are, i dont own one because i think the regular squig is fugly as all getout. Looking at its stats it seems decent atleast.

Also seriously their mold is out of commission now? Wow im glad i got one last year then...

Any reason to run it as anything other then Deathskullz or Evil Sunz? I'm thinking putting a mek with redder armor on a Mek for more MW potential

Technically, it shouldnt be anything other than Evil Sunz if youre that picky about minmaxing. Mine is Bad Moonz just because my whole army is, it still has a lot of dakka so it works out and being in melee doesnt negate its shooting. This thing wants to actually charge, its melee is pretty mean dont get me wrong but its primarily brutal if it makes the charge because of those tusks doing mortal wounds to every unit it just charged, as opposed to the new buggies' rams doing it to 1 unit, and doing it more reliably/more wounds in general. I had it kill characters in the charge alone lol.
Biggest slap in the face is having someone charge it first and still be alive when its your turn.

Freebootas would be the other kulture id say is great for it, since its an AMAZING Flash Gitz transport to begin with (did it precodex several times). Its capable of greatly benefiting both the shooty and choppy half of freeboota. Even when i swap a supalobba for a killkannon to shave like ~35? points, its still firing 3D6 high strength/damage guns and 20 bigshoota shots, while also swinging those tusks in melee which is even deadlier than the guns lol

Note: Squigs/GargSquig dont have opentopped but the Hawdah has the same effect with the added "can shoot while in melee, just not at units within 1" bit tacked on. So Freeboota trait would share to the occupants.

Wrote up the following list and was wondering if it looks competitive. Too many grots? Not enough dakka? Not enough boys? You be the call.



Bad moons battalion:

2x big mek/w big choppa and KFF
Weird boy/w Da Krunch

3x 13 gretchin

Painboy

Lootas x15
Lootas x10

Evil Suns Battalion

Warboss/w combi skorcha, relic claw, Speed freek
Warboss/w combi skorcha, big choppa
Weirdboy/w warpath

Boyz x29/w nob-Big choppa, combi skorcha
Boyz x9/w nob-big choppa, combi skorcha
gretching x13

Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs

Evil Sunz Vanguard

Weirdboy-Da jump

3x Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs







So in total:


2 warboss
2 big mek
3 weirdboyz
1 painboy

40boyz

52 gretchin

60 kommandos

25 lootas

here is my opinion:

- 4 units of kommandos break the rule of 3

- All these kombi skorchas are a lot of points in weapons that generally aren't great.

- You'll most likely mob up the lootas turn 1, so I don't really see the reason for 40 boyz. Either go 30 to jump turn 1, or 60-70 to jump turn 1 and 2.

- I'm not a fan of painboy, especially in the loota detachment since you won't get the FNP when using grot shields. It also applies to the KFF, as you don't get a save before passing the wound.

- Aiming for 3 batallions would give you 4 extra cp, and you already have 6+ hq and 12 extra grots to fill it. So it would only cost 54 points.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Wrote up the following list and was wondering if it looks competitive. Too many grots? Not enough dakka? Not enough boys? You be the call.



Bad moons battalion:

2x big mek/w big choppa and KFF
Weird boy/w Da Krunch

3x 13 gretchin

Painboy

Lootas x15
Lootas x10

Evil Suns Battalion

Warboss/w combi skorcha, relic claw, Speed freek
Warboss/w combi skorcha, big choppa
Weirdboy/w warpath

Boyz x29/w nob-Big choppa, combi skorcha
Boyz x9/w nob-big choppa, combi skorcha
gretching x13

Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs

Evil Sunz Vanguard

Weirdboy-Da jump

3x Kommandos x12, nob/w big choppa, 2x burnas, 2x tankbusta bombs







So in total:


2 warboss
2 big mek
3 weirdboyz
1 painboy

40boyz

52 gretchin

60 kommandos

25 lootas

I think you have a few loose ends in here you could trim and fit in a bit more usefulness.

1) the extra unit of 12 kommandos in the battalion over the rule of 3

2) the footy warboss who just waits for the turn 2 da jump. I don't think he's necessary. he's not unlocking a detachment, what's he there for?

3) the second KFF big mek, I don't know if you need two. He's going to stand near the boyz turn 1, then shuffle over to the lootas turn 2 after they grot shield everything coming at them turn 1. If you really need to cover everything T1, expand the bubble to 18 with the stratagem.

Take those points and throw in something to tellyport with your evil sunz. Maybe some Manz to crack a hard target if the lootas can't wound it.

It seems a bit HQ heavy. I think you could afford to cut a couple of them for more toys/boyz, especially the ones currently in the Bad Moon detachment. KFFs (and the Painboy) don't work with grot shield and it looks like your plan is to jump/ds everything else forward very quickly, which could leave your meks without anything to protect. Da Krunch is a power that I wouldn't rely on, but having that third power available for Fists (to go on a warboss) could be quite useful.

On that note, why aren't the warbosses on bikes? Not much of a reason to walk them, now, and you aren't bringing any transports for them to ride in.

And that's a lot of kommandos. I've never tried running anything close to that many, so you'll have to let us know how things go with them as a boyz replacement. Without much in the way of shooting, though, you're going to run into a trouble against screens, which could give your sneaky gits issues.

I completely forgot about commandos and the rule of 3 lmao. I don't usually play orcs so that was my fault.

I think I just took the mek because I needed the HQ but I could drop the KFF and just make him cheaper I suppose.

You only need 2 HQ per Battalion. You could drop a Warboss and the Mek and still have a legal list (after you fix the Kommandos). Spend those points on some Smashas that your remaining Mek can fix up.

Quick correction for the OP. Dead Sneaky can't be used on Gretchin. Stratagems need to specifically mention Gretchin to be used on them, and Dead Sneaky does not.

Go with triple battallion. Two of them being bad moons in order to get 6x10 gretchins that can shield the lootas. IMHO to protect those 25 lootas you need at least 60 gretchins and tons of CPs to dump on their shooting.

3x12 evil sunz kommanos are definitely enough, you don't need another unit. 1-2 big mobs of boyz will always be useful, after all the weirdboy that can cast da jump should have a couple of targets that are in the need to be teleported: lootas turn 1, boyz turn 2. With the kunning but brutal trait if you go first you can also re-deploy lootas in order to avoid to jump them. A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

 oomiestompa wrote:
Quick correction for the OP. Dead Sneaky can't be used on Gretchin. Stratagems need to specifically mention Gretchin to be used on them, and Dead Sneaky does not.

Eh, you are right. Makes the meh stratagem even more meh. I wonder what they were thinking when making that.

I've been using big mobs of Lootaz for 2 editions already... Used to love putting Lootaz behind an Aegis Defense Line and Go to Ground for 2+ save Orkz that hit on 6s but who cares!

Now that they are the new broken meta buster I feel kinda.... cheesy.

5th edition - lootaz are great
6th edition - lootaz are meh
7th edition - lootaz are trash
8th edition - lootaz are great

So the cycle begins anew!

Well great as Bad Moons. I run mine as Death Skulls and if I didn't love them so much I would probably get better results swapping them out for something else.

Lootas were used in 6th simply because we never used the Elite slot anyway and they were cheap for what they did.

Lootas in 7th were trash because they went up a little in points AND went to Heavy, which was one of our most contested slots, and there was no way to get extra slots back then. Additional slots were locked behind specific formations (which ours were a freaking list to begin with) or a 2001+ point game gave you double-foc.

Lootas didnt change in 8th slot/costwise but got some snazzy rules that make up for it so theyre good again.

 Blackie wrote:
A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

When does initiative seizing happen relative to kunnin' but brutal activation? I would have thought you could use the trait after the seize attempt but maybe I didn't read close enough.

So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Just deploy far back / Out of LoS. Lootas have 48" range, and can move/get jumped before shooting thanks to more dakka.

If you don't get initiative, you can use the Prepared Positions Stratagem to improve survivability, assuming you didn't put them in cover to begin with. Or bring in a Warlord who can move them out of LoS with Kunnin' but Brutal.

I'll agree that the Loota Bomb loses a lot of potential if you don't go first, but that's why you have other threats in your Army. A BW with some Tankbustas. Some Smashaz. Etc. If the only threat in your army are your Lootas, you're doing it wrong.

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

the_scotsman wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

With a CP, getting only 1 shot from lootas is about 11%. And you still do something if you fail, even if it isn't as much, and you are in a safe position.

An Evil Sun unit tellyported or jumped fails the charge 28% of the time, and does nothing if it fails, except getting obliterated at short range. Yet I see people all around saying it is " reliable", while lootas for some reason are random.

As for tournament results, it is indeed too early to know for sure what the meta will be. But some result is more information than no result.

the_scotsman wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

Shhhh.

You're not allowed to talk about how the new meta hotness has exploitable weaknesses and flaws, or how it's heavily subject to random chance in the single D3 roll for shots that determines not only your number of shots on the first, but also the second shot.

You're also not supposed to recognize that tournament results that only show the top 8 of 100+ participants will tend towards showing you people who put all their eggs into one particular basket and luck worked out on their side, while not showing you how many people of those 100+ participants tried that strategy and it didn't work out despite using identical tactics.

You're supposed to look at the easily mathhammered numbers and go HOLY GUACAMOLE 150 SHOTS PER TURN!

Then ideally come up with some fancy slang term for it so you can talk about it on your competitive gaming podcast.

THE ORKSTELLAN! How will it effect The Metagame? is it Broken and Needs Nerf? Has GW Gone Too Far?

I calls it as I sees it. Just like how in the games I play T7 or 8 is less reliable to wound with the smasha gun than the traktor kannon even though mathhammer says otherwise. I also seem to fail my tellyporta charges pretty reliably. blame it on cold dice sure. But mathhammer should always err on the conservative side rather than average.

Man. The scotsman seems kinda... salty.

I don't think anyone is saying that Lootas can't be beat. There are plenty of ways for opponents to deal with them. If you got a grudge against them... I'm sorry? They're a really solid unit with a lot of synergy with certain Kulturz and Strats. And, as I said above, if your entire victory hinges on the Survival of 25 Lootaz, you probably need to rebuild your list.

thats why i tend to do two-pronged lists. Two things that are typically slightly weaker than the fullon deathball style of play where EVERYTHING except maybe 300pts in your list is dedicated to this tight ball of stuff/single big units, but dealing with both of my tactics usually isnt possible.

Used to be easy to do that, couple MANz missiles was all it took to draw anti tank stuff off your wagons. Not as easy to do anymore.

Running the 25 loota strat is about a quarter of a 2k list. Still have plenty of points for a side tactic, like wagon rush or walker spam.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
thats why i tend to do two-pronged lists. Two things that are typically slightly weaker than the fullon deathball style of play where EVERYTHING except maybe 300pts in your list is dedicated to this tight ball of stuff/single big units, but dealing with both of my tactics usually isnt possible.

Used to be easy to do that, couple MANz missiles was all it took to draw anti tank stuff off your wagons. Not as easy to do anymore.

Running the 25 loota strat is about a quarter of a 2k list. Still have plenty of points for a side tactic, like wagon rush or walker spam.

I think having those other threats are important. I was mainly thinking of the list that won that tournament not too long ago. I think boyz were his main other threat. which is why I thought it weird the lootas survived so long.

@the_scottsman
The lists that were at Renegade Open are free to look a using BCP, so we can just know what happened.

There were 74 players 3 of them played orks (unless I missed some). The player that won the event played an Evil Sunz Horde, with 25 Bad Moon Lootaz. The next ork player placed 9th with roughly the same list. The third ork player placed 49th with 30 warbikerz and 12 traktor kannons.

We obviously don't have enough data but what we do have points to Lootaz being good. Lootaz have so much potential damage that they are impossible to ignore. They are easy to hide and protect with the combination of more Dakka (so you can hit on fives even when you move) and Grot shields. The only downside I see is that it eats up 600 points of your army and like 1 million command points.

Is there another large tournament that happened recently in which the new ork book was allowed?


edit: I found a fourth ork player who placed 58th with no Lootaz.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I've been using big mobs of Lootaz for 2 editions already... Used to love putting Lootaz behind an Aegis Defense Line and Go to Ground for 2+ save Orkz that hit on 6s but who cares!

Now that they are the new broken meta buster I feel kinda.... cheesy.

Not broken meta buster. Aeldar soup is currently doing good and they have perfect way to deal with them. Negate grot screen, wipe off lootas, you have then lost your loota bomb. They also have lots of high speed long range shooting so hiding out of LOS is trickier vs them than many others.

If aeldar soup wouldn't be so prelavent you might have point but they are out there in force so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coh Magnussen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
A bit risky because if the opponent steals the initiative that's 10 dead lootas but what's the point in playing orks without being aggressive and taking any (calculated) risks?

When does initiative seizing happen relative to kunnin' but brutal activation? I would have thought you could use the trait after the seize attempt but maybe I didn't read close enough.

You use it after you know who goes first so after seize. That's why I love that trait so much. I can modify my deployment with lootas(and/or tank bustas) depending on do I go first or 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
So I fail to see how the 15/10 loota mob up strategy works. Can this be used pre game or during your turn. Because as I see it if you don't get first turn. Opponent starts shooting loota squad 1 (use grot shield) opponent uses rest of army to shoot loota squad 2, preventing mob up.

same goes for boyz squads etc.

That's why you put them out of LOS. Then da jump out. Especially handy with kunning but brutal when you can avoid need to use da jump if you go first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
I calls it as I sees it. Just like how in the games I play T7 or 8 is less reliable to wound with the smasha gun than the traktor kannon even though mathhammer says otherwise. I also seem to fail my tellyporta charges pretty reliably. blame it on cold dice sure. But mathhammer should always err on the conservative side rather than average.

That's called selective memory.

Yeah, I was mostly joking I just love the level of knee-jerk from the "competitive 40k blog-o-sphere" whenever some new thing wins a tournament. Especially because I know a lot of the prominent guys from the Boston area, and their response to anything new is usually "sweet, I am going to click-bait the BEJEEZUS out of this."

The custode bike meta was I think my favorite to date. The reaction of every hardcore tournament player I know was just "holy gak I just painted 800 points of models I can win tournaments with IN TWENTY MINUTES! They cost sixty dollars!

I swear those guys had double the shelf life and popularity in the meta than they would have had otherwise because they were so friggin easy to buy and field. One kit! You spray them gold, you hit them with agrax and they're done!

Every person who has been in the competitive 40k scene with orks for any length of time has somewhere in the neighborhood of 35 lootas that have been gathering dust since the start of 7th.You bet your butt everyone is excited to be busting those out, this is going to be like when Venomspam became a thing again and the day after the drukhari codex came out every tournament player had 17 commission painted venoms with 5-man kabalite squads, which were wych models with unpainted splinter rifle arms glued onto them, like "oh, these?"

Had a 2k game vs mephrit necrons today. His list was as follows:

Overlord with war scythe immortal pride and veil of darkness
Cryptek with staff of light and chronomatron

2 X 10 warriors
2 ghost arks
1 X 10 gauss blaster immortals

2 X 5 destroyers
1 X 3 heavy destroyers
Monolith

My list was:

Evil suns outrider

Warboss on bike with killa Klaw and brutal but kunnin
Zhadsnark

2 X 1 megatrakk Scrapjets
1 big shoota deffkopta

Big trakk with supa skorcha and 2 skorchas

Deffskulls battalion

2 X weirdboys

3 X 10 grots

3 X 1 shokkjump dragstas

3 X 1 smashaguns

Bad moons battalion

Big mek on bike with kff

Weirdboy

3 X 10 grots

13 tank bustas

Wazbom blasta jet with kmks and stikkbomb launchas

He rolled a 6 to go first and I stole!

Turn one I super charged zhadsnark with fists of Gork and warpath and da jumped my bustas 18" away from his monolith and 2 ghost arks.

My shooting phase was crazy successful. My 3 smasha guns killed 5 destroyers. My 3 dragstas killed the unit of 3 heavy destroyers. My bustas popped moar dakka and showin off and did 20 damage to the monolith killing it, put a ghost ark to 2 wounds and another to 9 wounds. The wazbom targeted the other unit of destroyers and used long uncontrolled bursts and took them down to 1! Zhadsnark charged the 1 destroyer and whiffed all 7 attacks?!?!?!?!

His turn he killed the 13 tank bustas, zhadsnark and put one dragsta to 3 wounds. So far I have 11 points to his 3 (played sealed orders)

My turn 2 I killed a ghost ark and his immortals and overlord with his last destroyer squad and He then quitted.

My dragstas again were MVP and same with my bustas. They did insane amount of damage! And my normal DDD rolls were on point for my smashaguns, wazbom and dragstas.

Smasha guns are so undercosted aside from tourney play I prefer the auto hittraktor canons. There is only so much salt you want to draw upon you when using a new codex

i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

No Drukhari in your area, huh? Or tau, or craftworld eldar, or harlequins?

Because I played some trakktors against a venomspam army, and oooooooooooooohhhhhh boy was that satisfying.

Tau kinda vanished in my area and the only Eldar i face sit too close to my choppy things anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i will be surprised if smasha guns never get a points hyke.

Even just comparing the two guns, i felt smasha was better. Saw the points and my jaw dropped....

If things with Fly was common in my area i'd probably use traktors just for that alone, since thats amusing. Nobody uses Fliers and the few units i see with generic Fly dont blow up to begin with.
Granted i dont use either atm because i only have 1 Mekgun model. I have a plethora of trukk bits lying around though...

What flying vehicle DOESN'T blow up? Mind you it's not just fly that you need but flying vehicle.