Vineheart01 wrote: undercosted by way more than 10ppm
A twin melta is 50pts on its own, the model has a "twin melta thats not a twin melta" on a Gravis model for less than that.
Theyre easily half what they should be if not even less.
I mean, they shouldn't be 80 ppm.. that's a bit of hyperbole. I won't be shocked if they get a 5-10 ppm increase in the next point update.
That being said, Eradicators are really bloody good. I think they will be showing up a lot. I think the strategy will be in the buggy style list is to use the longer range of stuff like the Gunwagon / Mork to bait them in, and just blow them off with rockets. T5, 3+ save, 3 wounds is great, but it's good bait for rockets or a dragsta. And they are really optimal on big, expensive vehicles. If they double shoot a buggy, well, it'll probably die, but I'll swap a 90 point KBB for the 120 point Eradicators all day.
5-10 increase would be joke. You would then get worse weapon for same cost and stlll need to pay for carrier and t5 w3 carriers hitting on 3+ with trivial access to full rerolls aren't cheap. Well except for master faction to whom that stat is so bad you get weapon price discounted to compensate it seems...
Why wouldnt they be 70-80ppm? Again, a twin-melta is 50pts and is HEAVY while these are Assault. Unless the model was a simple Sister model (oh wait those exist and only cost 1pt less for 1 shot) thats way too cheap, a Sister model at least can be easily killed so its a risk vs reward. Gravis armor marines almost always require an unusually high amount of points shooting into them to kill them. Theres no hard-counter that doesnt cost twice what they are, or is tissue-paper (rokkit boyz)
Vineheart01 wrote: Why wouldnt they be 70-80ppm?
Again, a twin-melta is 50pts and is HEAVY while these are Assault. Unless the model was a simple Sister model (oh wait those exist and still cost more) thats way too cheap, a Sister model at least can be easily killed so its a risk vs reward.
Gravis armor marines almost always require an unusually high amount of points shooting into them to kill them. Theres no hard-counter that doesnt cost twice what they are, or is tissue-paper (rokkit boyz)
Because you'd just take a quad lascannon dreadnaught, that's potentially untargetable because it's a character, and way cheaper. It can even split fire properly.
I'm not saying it's properly costed at 45-50 ppm, just saying that from an internal cost perspective, there's no way you can charge 80 ppm for the model. It would be shelved by marine players immediately.
As much as the T5, 3 wound profile is good against bolter fire, we literally have an ideal weapon to kill it -- the humble rokkit. Which you should have plenty of, given there are going to be vehicles everywhere.
You make some very good points and I do think MSU boyz with Saw and rokkit for 100 PTS are a staple, as much unit of 4 MANz as unit of 5 kommandos.
However snakebite is the worst kulture of all. The gain is laughable and the loss gigantic. That 6+++ is not doing anything.
Also rule of 3 is still a thing, so unfortunately you can't have 4*5 or 6*5 Kommandos
Why a unit of 4 MANz? For out flank?
I dunno about that boy setup to be honest. I'm a big fan of rocket DS boys, but at a 10 man unit, how are you keeping them alive? We saw 30 man boy squads get blown off the board in 8th, and 9th is going to be just as deadly.
Boys need to be in bulk or in a delivery system of some kind (transport), and the transport route is prohibitively expensive for what you actually get.
PiñaColada wrote:
I personally don't really rate Flash Gitz that highly anymore and looking at your list Bigdoza I'd be tempted to keep it all Boomboyz and just straight swap those FGs for tankbustas. Then just switch out badrukk for a warboss or KFF big mek (to alleviate alpha strike risk).
I will say though, people are going nuts over those Chinorks and I'd say it's fairly likely they won't end up being the same after (another) day 1 FAQ and/or when the FW books drop. GW didn't understand the weird hole they dug themselves when they gave it the aircraft keyword (it's a helicopter, why is it more of an aircraft than like a heldrake?). I'd be hesitant to buy/scratch build a lot of them before we know some more.
Yeah, unless you own the models, don't covert this. This is with incomplete info, and is probably with an error on the Rattler Kannon cost.
I think whether or not you bring Flash Gits in something like or Tankbustas is just largely dependent on what you expect to face. FG are stupidly expensive now, but they are still amazing primaris / heavy infantry killers.
4 or 5 maximum models because i don´t think 6+ models is worth it. I just had the first game in 9th with a single blob of 30 and I find it ok, given that KFF works in melee (?!!) still.
I'd place eradicators at 55-60ppm ideally and see where that takes them. You have to remember that it's a unit that'll basically never split fire so they'll overkill almost anything they shoot at. That's fine for the big targets but stuff like buggies are odd for them I'd say. Are they going to shoot 6 shots into one buggy or try and kill one with two shots and soften another buggy with a single shot?
40ppm is criminal but yeah I agree with Tulun, 80 points would also be odd.
4 or 5 maximum models because i don´t think 6+ models is worth it. I just had the first game in 9th with a single blob of 30 and I find it ok, given that KFF works in melee (?!!) still.
Gotcha. Yeah, 5 models makes sense to me too. You might as well just avoid blast. Plasma Devastators and their ilk are gonna be super common -- imagine an Ork mirror match facing down Smasha guns guaranteeing 3 shots, etc.
I think you need some sort of plan for those 10 man boy squads. Like maybe you take 1 20 man, 1 10 man, then mob up turn one. Yeah you can't do Green tide, but do we even have the CP for that anymore? Plus it's playable around simply by slaughtering the unit if it goes below half.
In the list I play I have the CP for doing that, since no TB and no SSAG AND no Kustom ammo means there are no many ways to sink CP beside fight twice, green tide and fight on death.
Also interrupt is borderline useless given how few boyz get to attack nowadays.
Redeploy today wasn't that big of a deal, we both could do it but I could deploy correctly beforehand anyway. Btw is gonna take some time to understand which secondaries we should pick , is not that easy to score many points.
I won 66,48 Vs harlequins. The dude played too aggressive, he pushed my front line and forced me to green tide T2, but he basically burned all his CP and only killed a buggy and some Grots. The revenge was pretty brutal so we rounded up end of T2.
Tip of the day, you can fly out of the board T1 with the bombers and come back T2 in order to shoot later on. Saving headbutt for T3 is scary
Regardless of where Eradicators are pointswise and whether or not it makes sense for balance reasons, they are where they are and they will be on the table.
What the hell are we going to do about it. Discuss.
Blast > horde
Eradicator > mech
What is the best way to vaporize Eradicators at a safe distance? Preferably turn 1 or turn 2.
Unfortunately, they will be in small groups and hiding in inconvenient places and are ideal ambush units. Their mobility and range are a problem.
careh wrote: I've been thinking about Ghaz + Makari patrol coming in from strategic reserves. It's a bit gimmicky but if you can clear an available edge of the deployment zone Ghaz along with a squad or two of grots can pin Makari for protection. With linebreaker / repair teleport homer (Makari) you're racking up 9vp a turn that really forces a reaction. With the amount of movement options orks have there's a decent chance you've already got a turn or two of linebreaker anyway to max it out.
I've thought about a patrol like that as well. For 2 CP you can bring Thrakka, Makari, a doc to exploit medi squigs and a unit of scarboyz. If you feel like making your painboy turn in to a mini-grotznik, you could even give it da lukky stikk for hitting on threes and re-rolls. You could even put a gorkanaut in there and end up dipping into all of the advantages goff have to offer with a single patrol.
Actually I don't think so. Someone on the news thread did the math and most blast weapons went up more in price (percentage wise) than most horde units, so that isn't actually true. Blast weapons are better at killing hordes, but not as good as things that were already butchering hordes anyways - like agressors, FW dreads or massed troop guns.
What is the best way to vaporize Eradicators at a safe distance? Preferably turn 1 or turn 2.
Unfortunately, they will be in small groups and hiding in inconvenient places and are ideal ambush units. Their mobility and range are a problem.
You could try hitting multiple units with an 'eadbut, otherwise SJD can shoot them and jump into safety afterwards. The wazbomm might also be a solution. Falling that, drive a warboss into them and smash them with the klaw.
Pickled_egg wrote: Well as its shaping up, if we aren't among the first 2-3 Codexes released its going to be a frustrating period playing Orks.
I can't see any builds which can compete on anything like an even footing at the moment.
I'm almost tempted to just bring 200 boys, get on the objectives early and hope that I have enough points on the board before I get tabled.
Any kind of shooting strategy is now DOA. It's just bodies and pray that your opponent is bringing melta expecting vehicles and not blast.
Sounds pretty good to me!
I'm just starting orks but my plan is to go buggy heavy with shokkjump and war trike along with war bikes all charging forward. A burner bomba or 2 doing flying eadbutt then everything else is boys on objectives.
The main reason to take makari is his goff wide fnp... he’s also a great deal for his 2++ and mortal wounds... however i find it hard not to take a regular painboy w ghaz just so I can medi squig ghaz.
That way instead of wasting 2cp just put ghaz in a supreme command once he gets the keyword.
TedNugent wrote: Regardless of where Eradicators are pointswise and whether or not it makes sense for balance reasons, they are where they are and they will be on the table.
What the hell are we going to do about it. Discuss.
Blast > horde
Eradicator > mech
What is the best way to vaporize Eradicators at a safe distance? Preferably turn 1 or turn 2.
Unfortunately, they will be in small groups and hiding in inconvenient places and are ideal ambush units. Their mobility and range are a problem.
Smasha gunz. Always best choice against T4-5 multiwound high armored dudes. KBBs upgraded with their kustom job look good too.
First games I'm mostly focussing on ork units though, not enemy ones, taking all comers lists and trying to learn the mechanics of 9th edition, how to max out points scored. It's really pretty soon to say what our best combos look like in 9th edition.
And obviously, just from a defensive point of view, pushing them outside of 12" of your high value targets will help mitigate some of their damage.
On the flip side, those guys are "just" marines in melee so if you charge them then they're heavily neutered. Only ultramarines can really counteract that AFAIK. Even a humble 10 man grot or boy squad should be able to hold them up in melee for a turn.
Actually I don't think so. Someone on the news thread did the math and most blast weapons went up more in price (percentage wise) than most horde units, so that isn't actually true. Blast weapons are better at killing hordes, but not as good as things that were already butchering hordes anyways - like agressors, FW dreads or massed troop guns.
What is the best way to vaporize Eradicators at a safe distance? Preferably turn 1 or turn 2.
Unfortunately, they will be in small groups and hiding in inconvenient places and are ideal ambush units. Their mobility and range are a problem.
You could try hitting multiple units with an 'eadbut, otherwise SJD can shoot them and jump into safety afterwards. The wazbomm might also be a solution. Falling that, drive a warboss into them and smash them with the klaw.
Intredasting. Thanks as always.
I assume you mean the Bikerboss? A transport would be a bit...kablooie, I would think.
I don't feel like the Dragsta is super points efficient in comparison. It's around as expensive as a unit of Eradicators with 1/3 the firepower, with the potential to overkill them. Granted, they do have the mobility to angle them and disappear.
gungo wrote: The main reason to take makari is his goff wide fnp... he’s also a great deal for his 2++ and mortal wounds... however i find it hard not to take a regular painboy w ghaz just so I can medi squig ghaz.
That way instead of wasting 2cp just put ghaz in a supreme command once he gets the keyword.
That would only happen as part of the codex, which might be years from now.
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TedNugent wrote: I assume you mean the Bikerboss? A transport would be a bit...kablooie, I would think.
Correct, the foot boss would not have the speed to reach them is more likely would be used to clear out center objectives.
I don't feel like the Dragsta is super points efficient in comparison. It's around as expensive as a unit of Eradicators with 1/3 the firepower, with the potential to overkill them. Granted, they do have the mobility to angle them and disappear.
You don't need to wipe them out though. Killing just one or two already increases their chances of not killing a vehicle unless they are part of a castle. And if they are, 'eadbut the castle.
Marines will have troubles screening properly against it, da jump and other charges since they are no longer bringing 6 units of troops.
Also keep in mind that eradicators will be competing against other units for their slots, so you might not be seeing them as much as you'd think since bringing three gravis dudes with meltas means not bringing helblasters, eliminators, an executioner or a TF instead.
It’s not just the new codex we are still waiting for the saga faq... the medi squig takes ghaz from almost killable before he hits your line to Almost impossible to kill.
I’m also not worried about blasts from 6-10...
The fact it is min 3 isn’t a problem. If it was 3 per die then maybe... it won’t make much of a difference even when it does kick in. Now 11+ can be brutal.
I have two minds about the size of my MANz units. On the one hand I like taking 10 MANz for the simplicity of it all. The threat of blast weapons is there but I think the benefit of stratagems and psychic powers out weighs that.
On the other hand, I'm most likely running mono deathskulls. So if I run 2x5 or 3x5 units I could chuck in some kombi rokkits and lean into the re-rolls a lot better.
PiñaColada wrote: And obviously, just from a defensive point of view, pushing them outside of 12" of your high value targets will help mitigate some of their damage.
On the flip side, those guys are "just" marines in melee so if you charge them then they're heavily neutered. Only ultramarines can really counteract that AFAIK. Even a humble 10 man grot or boy squad should be able to hold them up in melee for a turn.
The melta rifles are assault, which means they've got more range than their half range would suggest.
They can move 8.5" on average and still double tap at BS4 on top of 12" melta range. Full BS at 17" with melta.
Evil Suns Patrol (2 CP)
Weirdboy x2 150 (1 w/ relic for +1 cast, Da Jump, other with Warpath and maybe Fists of Gork if I go with Warphead)
Grots 50
5 Nobs, 3x Saw, 2x Double choppa 130
5x MANz, Saws 200
General idea. Push with Ghaz + boys + grots on 1 side, while the Deff Dreads + Megatrakks + Wartrike push on the other. Da Jump Nobs turn 2, Tellyporta MANz turn 2, and punch through the hot zone on either side.
I could see swapping some stuff to take a burna bomber if need be (Straight up swap some Smashas, cause I hate smashas anyway).
Really hoping that ITC allows specialist detachments in it's rules. Or that otherwise a lot of the detachments stuff will be baked into the codex proper when it comes out. Didn't get to mess around with a BS3 freeboota morkanaught firing all it's dakka twice nearly enough.
So Freeboota trait redundant with the Kustom job on top of no double shoot =/
Yeah, that's why there's a bit of an awesomeness difference for a freeboota naught when comparing slug gubbins to sparkly bits. Slug gubbins gives +1 to the roll when at 12" so that can't stack. But sparklybits gives you a bs4 so you can get that juicy, juicy BS3. Or I guess more accurately, bs4 with a +1.
Oh yeah, it was always the difference for me when I played against a tau mate. "Oh you have taken a unit of 2 sheild drones Jojo? Something Something anime quote!"
Orks veichle lack any sort of real armour , in theory for making up their cheap price, in practice because at GW headquarters feel that Orks are good just to throw some dices around, screaming dakka here and there.
But experience is the best teacher.
I agree with this line of thought. It's such a Rich area for GW to mine from: Bone-Crushas, Giblet-Grinders, Bowel-burnas, Spleen-rippas, Gobsmasha's, Brain-burstas. Heck, I'd even take a Weirdboy tower. We are short on armour completely. GW seemed to think that smushing them all into the battlewagon chassis was good enough I suppose.
As I expect there to be one or two pieces of dense cover on most tabletops I just wondered how people plan on mitigating the fact that our shooting is largely going to be BS 6+ vs anyone with a brain.
With Loota's going up in points, & The SSAG no longer available in competitive play. We seem to be left with;
Spamming Smasha gunz
or possibly mobile tankbusta's in a trukk or open topped Battle wagon.
The Smasha gunz will give up a lot of secondary points, the tankbusta's in a vehicle are worth a look but once the vehicle is gone they die fairly instantly.
I was hoping that Gork/Morkanaut's would come down in points the same way that the land raider has to give us something viable.
But I'm just not seeing any viable builds beyond boyz spam with 2x burna bombas and a bevy of Meganobz.
And that build is going to be mid tier at best
EDIT : Why didn't they sort the list of blast weapons by faction.....
I feel like most Ork armies will give up an easy 15 "bring it down" points so you might as well lean into it I guess.
Other than what you just mentioned Pickled_egg I still think the megatrakk skrapjet, KBBs and shockjump dragstas are looking solid for the Orks. The wazbom wasn't hit too bad by the points cost so unless you're completely sold on the double burna bommer it's still a good option IMO (especially as it's a great target for long, uncontrolled bursts).
Da boomer gunwagon is good enough to be considered in most lists and a forktress bonebreaka just lost it's biggest limitation from 8th (vertical engagement range).
The warboss suicide missile isn't nearly as costly now, considering slay the warlord is barely a thing and the SSAG isn't there to eat up your WT. I don't think Orks are looking like a top player as of right now, but there could be a couple of builds that are actually quite decent.
Da boomer gunwagon is good enough to be considered in most lists and a forktress bonebreaka just lost it's biggest limitation from 8th (vertical engagement range).
Are you sure you can shoot twice with Da Bommer gunwagon ? Seems that RAW the gunwagon ability only lets you fire twice with your killakannon. If you replace it you can't fire twice anymore, and the gunwagon ability is useless.
There is no evidence of relics not being treated the same as the weapons they replace, and there is tons of evidence of the contrary, including an FAQ for a IG relic that has the same exact interaction as da boomer and periscope.
Multiple playtesters used stratagems and rules meant for specific weapons on their corresponding relic versions during their 9th edition games.
It's very safe to assume that periscope works on da boomer.
I'm gonna shave my eyebrows and eat my shoes if periscope won't work on the Boomer
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PiñaColada wrote: I feel like most Ork armies will give up an easy 15 "bring it down" points so you might as well lean into it I guess.
Other than what you just mentioned Pickled_egg I still think the megatrakk skrapjet, KBBs and shockjump dragstas are looking solid for the Orks. The wazbom wasn't hit too bad by the points cost so unless you're completely sold on the double burna bommer it's still a good option IMO (especially as it's a great target for long, uncontrolled bursts).
Da boomer gunwagon is good enough to be considered in most lists and a forktress bonebreaka just lost it's biggest limitation from 8th (vertical engagement range).
The warboss suicide missile isn't nearly as costly now, considering slay the warlord is barely a thing and the SSAG isn't there to eat up your WT. I don't think Orks are looking like a top player as of right now, but there could be a couple of builds that are actually quite decent.
That was our strength in ITC with Grots: giving the reaper was so easy that after they maxed out with 80 Grots , most of the people had no idea what to do with other 60/100 bodies on the field
Here's my starting list for 9th edition, sharing for the love towards others Orks. Gonna play couple of games and see how it holds, and then start improving it.
Spoiler:
DEATHSKULLS BATTALLION, 2000 points exact
HQ - Warboss, Kustom Shoota + PK (Da Killa Klaw relic)
- Big Mek in M.A. with KFF
TROOP
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
ELITE
- 5x MANZ, Kombi-Rokkit + Powerklaw
- 5x Kommandos
- 5x Nobz, everyone Big Choppa + Choppa
- 3x Nobz on Warbikes
- 3x Nobz on Warbikes
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Battlewagon with DeffRolla, Grot Rigger and some big shootas
FAST ATT
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
FLYER
- Burnabommer with Skorcha Missiles
- Burnabommer with Skorcha Missiles
I think it is rather aggressive list that simply marches forward to take foothold on the table, aiming to hold it from there regardless of casualties. Not going for killy secondaries, but objective based. Linebreaker is good use I think.
Squad of boyz, nobz and warboss would be loaded in Battlewagon.
Emicrania wrote: I'm gonna shave my eyebrows and eat my shoes if periscope won't work on the Boomer
That was our strength in ITC with Grots: giving the reaper was so easy that after they maxed out with 80 Grots , most of the people had no idea what to do with other 60/100 bodies on the field
Yeah, I think we gotta accept we are going to give up the vehicle VPs. Either you're taking Smashas in the more infantry style list, or a hoard of buggies. And 1-2 Burnas are probably showing up in every serious Ork list from now on, which I believe is 6 automatic VPs for that secondary for your opponent.. cause you know it's either getting shot off or exploding.
Something that's quite interesting too for secondaries: if you forego psykers (and some lists like mech encourage this), that secondary seems a super easy pickup for 15 VPs against a lot of opponents (Grey Knights, Eldar).
I assume Abhor the Witch / Vehicle buster one is in the same category too, so it's actually not gonna be a big detriment to Orks taking our own psykers in the long run, unless you field 0 vehicles... which competitively seems stupid.
Edit: Actually, no they aren't. Abhor the witch and Bring it down (Vehicle VP) are separate. Something to keep in mind. 2 Weirdboy can be an easy 10 VP if the enemy has no psykers of their own.
havnt orks always played with the mentality they basically handed some points to the opponent, because the game is balanced for marines not xenos?
Seems kill points and slay the warlord has always been something orks tend to just hand off. Either that or vehicle kills, same diff its something we just gotta deal with.
I hade some decent success last 2 years with ork competitively, which is why i´m so ferocious at the loss of basically everything that made us good so far.
We need some serious boost or we are stuck midtier for a while , at best.
About secondaries @Tulun, that is very true, which is why is important to transform weakness into strengths, ATM heavy mech or mech and some MSU infantry might be the way to go.
Also a suicidal warboss is great to trick the enemy into a easy secondary which lead to a -9 on the scoresheet, since you can just achieve 6 points.
Emicrania wrote: I hade some decent success last 2 years with ork competitively, which is why i´m so ferocious at the loss of basically everything that made us good so far.
We need some serious boost or we are stuck midtier for a while , at best.
About secondaries @Tulun, that is very true, which is why is important to transform weakness into strengths, ATM heavy mech or mech and some MSU infantry might be the way to go.
Also a suicidal warboss is great to trick the enemy into a easy secondary which lead to a -9 on the scoresheet, since you can just achieve 6 points.
Yeah, the secondary game is going to be interesting for us. I think people will learn the best to choose from with experience though, so some of these mind games will only go so far.
My only issue with this MSU infantry stuff is you need some kind of game plan. As Jid sort of rightly pointed out, yeah, 50 points for grots sucks, but 80 points for 10 boys dies almost as easily.
If we generally have at *least* 3 troop squads to flesh out, how do we maximize the usage out of them?
Like I could see for one of the squads, you put 10 boys in a Deff Rolla Wagon upgraded to a Forktress, along with 5 MANz, and push on one side. The boys are ablative wounds for the MANz, and if the Nob has double saw, it effectively becomes a 6th double saw model in that area.
Maybe for the last 2 10 man boy squads, you out flank the both of them for 1 CP, and optionally mob up to turn them into a 20 man boy squad, just so they don't get blown off immediately.
It's important to note that the warlord secondary is completely different in the GT pack. In there you score a number of VPs depending on which round you kill the warlord in.
Round 1 is 13VP
Round 2 is 10VP
Round 3 is 6VP
Round 4 is 3VP
Round 5 is 1VP
But since you declare any pregame strats after knowing which secondaries your opponent chooses (step 10 & 7 respectively) you could just put your warlord into reserve and have him come out somewhere safe T3 and as such mitigate almost all potential VP. Therefore I doubt we'll ever really see that secondary.
So is the general consensus that most Ork lists are going to be built around a battalion and a patrol? A brigade seems excessive troops wise now that grots are no longer effective filler and you do want that extra oomph from a different detachment kultur to maximize the damage you do with units like mek gunz.
Given that the restriction on specialist detachments seem to be mainly restricted to the grand tournament scene, but competitive is effectively synonymous with matched play in most places, how likely do you think the relic SAG is going to be allowed post launch? I think they will be phased inevitably, but I'd like to see other opinions since my meta is basically just amongst friends, so I'm not sure how to bring it up to them since they're not entirely fans of the relic to begin with (I roll high a lot).
Grimskul wrote: So is the general consensus that most Ork lists are going to be built around a battalion and a patrol? A brigade seems excessive troops wise now that grots are no longer effective filler and you do want that extra oomph from a different detachment kultur to maximize the damage you do with units like mek gunz.
Given that the restriction on specialist detachments seem to be mainly restricted to the grand tournament scene, but competitive is effectively synonymous with matched play in most places, how likely do you think the relic SAG is going to be allowed post launch? I think they will be phased inevitably, but I'd like to see other opinions since my meta is basically just amongst friends, so I'm not sure how to bring it up to them since they're not entirely fans of the relic to begin with (I roll high a lot).
Bat or bat/patrol or maybe patrol/patrol if for whatever reason you wanna save 2 troop slots and don't need more than 4 of any particular one.
I dunno. If it's just between friends, you sort of just agree on what to use. If some of them are thinking of playing in tournaments though I'd probably just ban them.
Tbh, the shelf life of vigilus is probably very short anyway. Hopefully we have a codex in 6 months, maybe even with the relic SAG restored.
Grimskul wrote: So is the general consensus that most Ork lists are going to be built around a battalion and a patrol? A brigade seems excessive troops wise now that grots are no longer effective filler and you do want that extra oomph from a different detachment kultur to maximize the damage you do with units like mek gunz.
Given that the restriction on specialist detachments seem to be mainly restricted to the grand tournament scene, but competitive is effectively synonymous with matched play in most places, how likely do you think the relic SAG is going to be allowed post launch? I think they will be phased inevitably, but I'd like to see other opinions since my meta is basically just amongst friends, so I'm not sure how to bring it up to them since they're not entirely fans of the relic to begin with (I roll high a lot).
Bat or bat/patrol or maybe patrol/patrol if for whatever reason you wanna save 2 troop slots and don't need more than 4 of any particular one.
I dunno. If it's just between friends, you sort of just agree on what to use. If some of them are thinking of playing in tournaments though I'd probably just ban them.
Tbh, the shelf life of vigilus is probably very short anyway. Hopefully we have a codex in 6 months, maybe even with the relic SAG restored.
Good point, and with the 120 points cost of a SAG, it's not like there's that much incentive to take it anyways. Probably want to move on from that crutch with the game changing the way it is.
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
It depends on what guns the opponent has. I'm starting with 2x30 boyz, Warboss, Weirdboy, Mad Dok and other 10 boyz in a wagon with 5 Meganobz as core infantries of the list. More boyz I refuse to play, less boyz I don't know; I'd like to try soon a full vehicle/walkers list with just Meganobz and characters as the only infantries.
We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for you guys playing boyz mob, bring a KFF or a pack or Kleenex, because you'll gonna cry salty tears Vs ANY Imperium list. Astra, SM, SoB, and AD mech will evaporate 30 boyz in a jiff.
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
Killsaw is the same cost as the PK. the PK should never, ever be willingly taken.
You know, given the humble trukk went up like 1 point, I wonder too if Trukk boys might be useful as well. People will be teching into anti tank, but having to kill both a trukk *and* 10 boys, plus your entire army worth of other vehicles you should be throwing at them, will be annoying enough where they might be amazing at both screening and simply helping you hold objectives mid board.
It's possibly worth experimenting. 10 T6 wounds with a 4+, 6++ for 65 points might actually be really good this edition .
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
Killsaw is the same cost as the PK. the PK should never, ever be willingly taken.
You know, given the humble trukk went up like 1 point, I wonder too if Trukk boys might be useful as well. People will be teching into anti tank, but having to kill both a trukk *and* 10 boys, plus your entire army worth of other vehicles you should be throwing at them, will be annoying enough where they might be amazing at both screening and simply helping you hold objectives mid board.
It's possibly worth experimenting. 10 T6 wounds with a 4+, 6++ for 65 points might actually be really annoying .
In this moment a W on a truck is 1.5 PTS more expensive than a grot and 1.5 CHEAPER than a boy.
Food for thoughts.
In the grand scheme of things, if this is fielded with a pile of mek guns, buggies, planes, and a Mork? That might be frustrating as hell to deal with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quickly tossed together list, exactly 2000.
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
Killsaw is the same cost as the PK. the PK should never, ever be willingly taken.
You know, given the humble trukk went up like 1 point, I wonder too if Trukk boys might be useful as well. People will be teching into anti tank, but having to kill both a trukk *and* 10 boys, plus your entire army worth of other vehicles you should be throwing at them, will be annoying enough where they might be amazing at both screening and simply helping you hold objectives mid board.
It's possibly worth experimenting. 10 T6 wounds with a 4+, 6++ for 65 points might actually be really good this edition .
What really? I must have missed in my first read through on the points leaks. That's kinda slowed tbh, what point is there in taking PK's outside of a warboss with the killa klaw then? Flat 2 damage and Ap-4 is far superior to klaw stats, soooooo yeah, I guess all my klaws count as saws this edition then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bigdoza wrote: I was toying with the idea of taking trukks in a foot ork list for each 30 man blob.
Nobody wants to shoot an empty trukk.
True, and it could be a good way to tie up units, especially now that FLY doesn't let you fall back and shoot.
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for you guys playing boyz mob, bring a KFF or a pack or Kleenex, because you'll gonna cry salty tears Vs ANY Imperium list. Astra, SM, SoB, and AD mech will evaporate 30 boyz in a jiff.
The problem with trukks is the same problem they have had since 7th edition, they die VERY easily. And in a vehicle heavy edition like 9th seems like its going to be, the number of anti-tank weapons is going to be astoundingly high which in turn means those trukkz won't survive for very long. As of this moment a a Predator with 2 LC sponsons can merc a Trukk each turn, the new stuff especially the Multi-melta marines will be laughing as they liquefy those trukks.
I am still leaning heavily on the idea of boyz spam, as boring as it is to play. (Purely competitive build). I want to build a list with zero vehicles of any sort whatsoever so my opponent has to gnash his teeth and waste lascannon and Melta shots on boyz
Although that may be a decent exchange. Those eradicators just wouldn't be efficient if they're shooting at light vehicles. They want those big ticket targets that need 6 metlas to kill. Sure they can obliterate a trukk in a single volley, but you only need one to get into base contact to be in a good place in the exchange.
Tagging units in combat is less sure fire than last edition but it's still plenty important I reckon.
It's possible we may be okay with our horde of light vehicles that we can wrap with an invul. Forcing enemies to overcommit firepower could be a big part of our strategy. 9 Deffdreads could be fun purely because having one limping along on 1 wound is a pain the enemy can't ignore for too long.
This is a secondary where you choose the 3 most expensive models in your army; for each that is alive at the end of the game, gain 5 VP.
This seems very, very interesting... why? We have some units that could be completely annoying to kill by the end of the game. Ideally these units are also contributing on the battlefield and not just hiding.
1) Shock Jump dragsta. Cost for 3: 330 points. All it takes is one of these guys surviving and you get the 5 VPs. One can fire and fade for 1 CP every round. So use all 3 aggressively, and if two die, the 3rd simply plays "hide behind obscuring terrain" until end of the game.
2) Ghaz. 300 point monster. If healed with a painboy, he might survive the game, or be extremely frustrating to remove.
3) Deffkoptas (Evil Suns). 250 for a squad of 5. Can fire and fade, similar to the SJD for 1 CP.
Even 2 of 3 units surviving is 10 VPs, and something we can control quite strongly, and it's also irrespective of what our opponent is using.
It might be an interesting secondary for us, given our speed and some stratagems in our pocket. Thoughts?
Edit: if it's literally models, it could be a problem for the SJD.
I feel like with all the discussion of deffskullz, that deffskullz trukk boyz with a rokkit and Nob with PK would be ideal uses of the troop slot. Or do we really need numbers to take control of objectives in the middle?
Killsaw is the same cost as the PK. the PK should never, ever be willingly taken.
You know, given the humble trukk went up like 1 point, I wonder too if Trukk boys might be useful as well. People will be teching into anti tank, but having to kill both a trukk *and* 10 boys, plus your entire army worth of other vehicles you should be throwing at them, will be annoying enough where they might be amazing at both screening and simply helping you hold objectives mid board.
It's possibly worth experimenting. 10 T6 wounds with a 4+, 6++ for 65 points might actually be really good this edition .
Dual killsaws on that unit and you're only up a few points compared to 8th edition for the same loadout.
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
I will be creating the new thread when the new edition officially launches. Otherwise the first few pages will be filled with speculation and not actual tactics. By the way, this will be the fifth thread of its kind I'll create
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
It's not going to be more of a mess than we had ITC, ETC and GW rules and that worked fine as well. If anything, the games will be more alike than ever before because people don't base entire strategies around house rules that don't exist at all for other people, like magic boxes or ITC secondaries.
In the grand scheme of things, if this is fielded with a pile of mek guns, buggies, planes, and a Mork? That might be frustrating as hell to deal with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quickly tossed together list, exactly 2000.
Maybe just straight up swap the KBB and Gunwagon for Mek guns, upgrade your nobs to double saw?
Damn they are trying to sell those buggies .... I think some buggies are good, but still expensive for their points and their ridicolously large base makes it impossible to fit into a KFF range.
Why the Wartrike?
The list is a good start, but I think you need at least 2 planes .
I think is a good list but it needs polishing. Maybe a Gunwagon and +1 MANz instead of the SJD or maybe more buggies. However Obj sec is huge this edition. Trukk boyz spam might not be a bad idea after all.
Dendarien wrote:
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for you guys playing boyz mob, bring a KFF or a pack or Kleenex, because you'll gonna cry salty tears Vs ANY Imperium list. Astra, SM, SoB, and AD mech will evaporate 30 boyz in a jiff.
Could maybe cut down on the SJD and squeeze in some smasha guns, or maybe burna bommas?
From my understanding they wanna start even MORE 3d....
I like the list but if you are going with 6 trukk that KFF mek is doing nothing backfield and will get blown out T2 without a doubt.
Jidmah wrote:
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
I will be creating the new thread when the new edition officially launches. Otherwise the first few pages will be filled with speculation and not actual tactics. By the way, this will be the fifth thread of its kind I'll create
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
It's not going to be more of a mess than we had ITC, ETC and GW rules and that worked fine as well. If anything, the games will be more alike than ever before because people don't base entire strategies around house rules that don't exist at all for other people, like magic boxes or ITC secondaries.
Awesome Jid
Can´t we implement a flair or something like that, when talking about other sistems beside the GT pack?
This is a secondary where you choose the 3 most expensive models in your army; for each that is alive at the end of the game, gain 5 VP.
This seems very, very interesting... why? We have some units that could be completely annoying to kill by the end of the game. Ideally these units are also contributing on the battlefield and not just hiding.
1) Shock Jump dragsta. Cost for 3: 330 points. All it takes is one of these guys surviving and you get the 5 VPs. One can fire and fade for 1 CP every round. So use all 3 aggressively, and if two die, the 3rd simply plays "hide behind obscuring terrain" until end of the game.
2) Ghaz. 300 point monster. If healed with a painboy, he might survive the game, or be extremely frustrating to remove.
3) Deffkoptas (Evil Suns). 250 for a squad of 5. Can fire and fade, similar to the SJD for 1 CP.
Even 2 of 3 units surviving is 10 VPs, and something we can control quite strongly, and it's also irrespective of what our opponent is using.
It might be an interesting secondary for us, given our speed and some stratagems in our pocket. Thoughts?
Edit: if it's literally models, it could be a problem for the SJD.
I guess it is important to understand first if it is models or units. Than i wouldn´t base a 1/6 of my income on NOT playing a model.
Also ghaz, he dies. I can promise you that he does .
I will be creating the new thread when the new edition officially launches. Otherwise the first few pages will be filled with speculation and not actual tactics. By the way, this will be the fifth thread of its kind I'll create
And we love ya for it, Jid! But I agree with the sentiment that CA 9th and GT9th are actually quite similar now and shouldn't force you to take drastically different lists in the way ITC, Nova/ETC etc did.
A few of the secondaries are switched out but mostly it's a VP here and there different in regards to scoring, arguably the most important one for us (either in way of offense or defense) is that attrition is switched out. Attrition is in CA 4VPs if you kill more units than your enemy that round, in GT it's called Grind them down and is "only" worth 3VP for doing the same thing. So it's harder to max out, although still possible. Other than that CA seem to have very little in the way of restricting reinforcements whereas in GT it's only allowed in T2 & T3 (like in 8th).
I feel like the first page in the new thread could have a section of ranking secondaries for us, sort of in the same way we currently have a paragraph for each clan. Obviously not as high of a priority as ranking the units/strats themselves but I feel like that's going to be a massive help for people who never played ITC before this. Once again, it'll be up to us ladz in the thread to chip in on that.
Ilgoth wrote: Here's my starting list for 9th edition, sharing for the love towards others Orks. Gonna play couple of games and see how it holds, and then start improving it.
Spoiler:
DEATHSKULLS BATTALLION, 2000 points exact
HQ - Warboss, Kustom Shoota + PK (Da Killa Klaw relic)
- Big Mek in M.A. with KFF
TROOP
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
- 10x shoota boyz (big shoota, boss with kombi-rokkit)
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
ELITE
- 5x MANZ, Kombi-Rokkit + Powerklaw
- 5x Kommandos
- 5x Nobz, everyone Big Choppa + Choppa
- 3x Nobz on Warbikes
- 3x Nobz on Warbikes
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Battlewagon with DeffRolla, Grot Rigger and some big shootas
FAST ATT
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
- 10x Stormboyz, boss with Big Choppa
FLYER
- Burnabommer with Skorcha Missiles
- Burnabommer with Skorcha Missiles
I think it is rather aggressive list that simply marches forward to take foothold on the table, aiming to hold it from there regardless of casualties. Not going for killy secondaries, but objective based. Linebreaker is good use I think.
Squad of boyz, nobz and warboss would be loaded in Battlewagon.
You have basically no firepower and no staying power. I don´t know how hard is your meta, but this list achieve nothing , I´m sorry.
If you aim into taking the board by mass, you lack the numbers and the staying power of multiple boyz units backed by at least 2 KFF and a painboy.
If you aim into being fast, buggies are better.
If you aim into having transports, you need more
There is no meta and it is cool to explore, however, pick up one strenght and one weakness for your list building, in this way you know what you can and what you cannot; otherwise you ll gonna be all over the place.
I will be creating the new thread when the new edition officially launches. Otherwise the first few pages will be filled with speculation and not actual tactics. By the way, this will be the fifth thread of its kind I'll create
And we love ya for it, Jid! But I agree with the sentiment that CA 9th and GT9th are actually quite similar now and shouldn't force you to take drastically different lists in the way ITC, Nova/ETC etc did.
A few of the secondaries are switched out but mostly it's a VP here and there different in regards to scoring, arguably the most important one for us (either in way of offense or defense) is that attrition is switched out. Attrition is in CA 4VPs if you kill more units than your enemy that round, in GT it's called Grind them down and is "only" worth 3VP for doing the same thing. So it's harder to max out, although still possible. Other than that CA seem to have very little in the way of restricting reinforcements whereas in GT it's only allowed in T2 & T3 (like in 8th).
I feel like the first page in the new thread could have a section of ranking secondaries for us, sort of in the same way we currently have a paragraph for each clan. Obviously not as high of a priority as ranking the units/strats themselves but I feel like that's going to be a massive help for people who never played ITC before this. Once again, it'll be up to us ladz in the thread to chip in on that.
With the limit to DS to T3 , do this means that once a flyer flew out the board, does it need to be back by T3 or it explodes?
No, those should be good Emicrania.. The relevant text snippet is this:
In Grand Tournament 2020 missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round. Any Strategic Reserve or Reinforcement unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third round counts as having been destroyed, as do any units embarked within them (this does not apply to units that are placed into Strategic Reserve after the first battle round has started).
Personally, my feeling is that this objective is a trap. I tried it twice with my DG now, but even trying to keep 2 LoC (2+/4++/5+++/T5/6W/LoS!) alive has proven nigh impossible. If people want stuff to die, they will kill it and giving up 15 VP is no joke.
PiñaColada wrote: It's important to note that the warlord secondary is completely different in the GT pack. In there you score a number of VPs depending on which round you kill the warlord in.
Round 1 is 13VP
Round 2 is 10VP
Round 3 is 6VP
Round 4 is 3VP
Round 5 is 1VP
But since you declare any pregame strats after knowing which secondaries your opponent chooses (step 10 & 7 respectively) you could just put your warlord into reserve and have him come out somewhere safe T3 and as such mitigate almost all potential VP. Therefore I doubt we'll ever really see that secondary.
Well you choose reserves. Other pregame strategems(relics, warlord traits etc) are chosen during list building.
This seems very, very interesting... why? We have some units that could be completely annoying to kill by the end of the game. Ideally these units are also contributing on the battlefield and not just hiding.
1) Shock Jump dragsta. Cost for 3: 330 points. All it takes is one of these guys surviving and you get the 5 VPs. One can fire and fade for 1 CP every round. So use all 3 aggressively, and if two die, the 3rd simply plays "hide behind obscuring terrain" until end of the game.
2) Ghaz. 300 point monster. If healed with a painboy, he might survive the game, or be extremely frustrating to remove.
3) Deffkoptas (Evil Suns). 250 for a squad of 5. Can fire and fade, similar to the SJD for 1 CP.
Even 2 of 3 units surviving is 10 VPs, and something we can control quite strongly, and it's also irrespective of what our opponent is using.
It might be an interesting secondary for us, given our speed and some stratagems in our pocket. Thoughts?
Edit: if it's literally models, it could be a problem for the SJD.
It speaks about models so I would presume SJD is 110 so any model over it makes any model above 110 the target. Ditto for deffkoptas. 50 pts is pretty cheap for that objective...
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for you guys playing boyz mob, bring a KFF or a pack or Kleenex, because you'll gonna cry salty tears Vs ANY Imperium list. Astra, SM, SoB, and AD mech will evaporate 30 boyz in a jiff.
GW hasn't given recommended board size. Just minimum they chose for money purpose.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
It's not going to be more of a mess than we had ITC, ETC and GW rules and that worked fine as well. If anything, the games will be more alike than ever before because people don't base entire strategies around house rules that don't exist at all for other people, like magic boxes or ITC secondaries.
Awesome Jid
Can´t we implement a flair or something like that, when talking about other sistems beside the GT pack?
The GT pack is very similar to the regular matched play pack. I don't think this will be necessary except when you want to discuss specific secondary objectives or missions, for which you can just say so.
Emicrania wrote: We should open a new 3d this Saturday? So maybe we can corroborate something more focused on 9th.
Also I guess is important to remember that if we are talking competitive 40k, than we are talking always about the GT pack with the recommend board size. Otherwise It's gonna be a mess
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for you guys playing boyz mob, bring a KFF or a pack or Kleenex, because you'll gonna cry salty tears Vs ANY Imperium list. Astra, SM, SoB, and AD mech will evaporate 30 boyz in a jiff.
GW hasn't given recommended board size. Just minimum they chose for money purpose.
Considering how Emicrania has almost exclusively been playing on ITC circuits and all of the tournament organizers have already confirmed going down to minimum size, this point is moot.
I guess its just going to be a matter of gauging the meta isn't it?
If the meta is full of anti-tank like Melta than the boyz spam should be good. We will get tabled but can put a lot of progressive points on the board before hand.
However if you run the boyz spam list and come up against Wyverns or other blast weapons its not good to be a greenskin.
You have basically no firepower and no staying power. I don´t know how hard is your meta, but this list achieve nothing , I´m sorry.
If you aim into taking the board by mass, you lack the numbers and the staying power of multiple boyz units backed by at least 2 KFF and a painboy.
If you aim into being fast, buggies are better.
If you aim into having transports, you need more
I am interested in hearing how you would improve, lets say the staying power of the list?
Damn they are trying to sell those buggies .... I think some buggies are good, but still expensive for their points and their ridicolously large base makes it impossible to fit into a KFF range.
Why the Wartrike?
The list is a good start, but I think you need at least 2 planes .
I think is a good list but it needs polishing. Maybe a Gunwagon and +1 MANz instead of the SJD or maybe more buggies. However Obj sec is huge this edition. Trukk boyz spam might not be a bad idea after all.
The reason for the wartrike is just having an HQ that provides some anti tank, has some chaff clearing (Gork's roar), can potentially help with charges (Mork or battle wagon) and isn't totally deadweight if he needs to get into combat. With a list as mechanized as this, I don't know what else I'd take. All our other HQs are slogging. The gunwagon is probably camping the backfield. I could toss something in the Morkanaut I guess and have it pop out if it gets close to something.
And yeah, fair on Ghaz. I'm just spit balling. These secondaries just require a lot of rethinking of lists. Heck, I can even almost understand why stormboyz are 12 ppm. You could easily get several squads of them on pretty much any objective if you went first to plant a bunch of banners on most of the missions it looks like. Planting 3 turn 1/2 I think maxing out the secondary?
Personally, my feeling is that this objective is a trap. I tried it twice with my DG now, but even trying to keep 2 LoC (2+/4++/5+++/T5/6W/LoS!) alive has proven nigh impossible. If people want stuff to die, they will kill it and giving up 15 VP is no joke.
Interesting. Yeah there are probably ways you could easily maximize it but it would cripple your army (strategic reserves and have them show up turn 5.. I believe only the other stuff has the end of turn 3 restriction). The interesting thing will be if there are models that can count (as they have to be expensive), and can stay out of LoS. Maybe it's not really an Ork thing.
You have basically no firepower and no staying power. I don´t know how hard is your meta, but this list achieve nothing , I´m sorry.
If you aim into taking the board by mass, you lack the numbers and the staying power of multiple boyz units backed by at least 2 KFF and a painboy.
If you aim into being fast, buggies are better.
If you aim into having transports, you need more
I am interested in hearing how you would improve, lets say the staying power of the list?
That all depends on what is your theme.
Mech based list? Morkanaut with KFF or wazbomb with KFF.
Infantry based list? Than at list a walking KFF, not the slow dude, if not 2.
Mixed, than mixed KFF This is just a tip not altering the list, which again has a fault that i´m gonna describe here:
Target saturation is a thing, If you have 1/3 soft targets (boyz and nobz are T4 tissue paper save), 1/3 medium target (bikes) and 1/3 hard target (veichle), you are giving your opponent a buck for ALL his guns. Normally it is important to pick a theme and stick to it, with orks even more since our saves are so gakky.
Rushing your opponent in the corner with orks, ATM is not possible , since we lack the punch. Weirdly enough Orks are a shooting army more than CC army nowadays.
Damn they are trying to sell those buggies .... I think some buggies are good, but still expensive for their points and their ridicolously large base makes it impossible to fit into a KFF range.
Why the Wartrike?
The list is a good start, but I think you need at least 2 planes .
I think is a good list but it needs polishing. Maybe a Gunwagon and +1 MANz instead of the SJD or maybe more buggies. However Obj sec is huge this edition. Trukk boyz spam might not be a bad idea after all.
The reason for the wartrike is just having an HQ that provides some anti tank, has some chaff clearing (Gork's roar), can potentially help with charges (Mork or battle wagon) and isn't totally deadweight if he needs to get into combat. With a list as mechanized as this, I don't know what else I'd take. All our other HQs are slogging. The gunwagon is probably camping the backfield. I could toss something in the Morkanaut I guess and have it pop out if it gets close to something.
And yeah, fair on Ghaz. I'm just spit balling. These secondaries just require a lot of rethinking of lists. Heck, I can even almost understand why stormboyz are 12 ppm. You could easily get several squads of them on pretty much any objective if you went first to plant a bunch of banners on most of the missions it looks like. Planting 3 turn 1/2 I think maxing out the secondary?
You know what, that list is not bad, I feel the wartike is lacking punch somewhat but still i like the list. In almost 2 years of ITC I never play to max out secondaries first, I like to play the long game and focus on board control from T2 onward. I m lucky I played so much ITC because it thought me so much about reading the scoring during the game. Rushing is 9/10 a bad option. You should rush and take out the big target only when you know that your opponent WILL squash you if you let him.
But now is pretty different secondaries, so I´m gonna spend the next 10 games only focusing on undeerstanding which secondary I need vs which army, and which secondary is good for us and/or my list.
You know what, that list is not bad, I feel the wartike is lacking punch somewhat but still i like the list. In almost 2 years of ITC I never play to max out secondaries first, I like to play the long game and focus on board control from T2 onward. I m lucky I played so much ITC because it thought me so much about reading the scoring during the game. Rushing is 9/10 a bad option. You should rush and take out the big target only when you know that your opponent WILL squash you if you let him.
But now is pretty different secondaries, so I´m gonna spend the next 10 games only focusing on undeerstanding which secondary I need vs which army, and which secondary is good for us and/or my list.
Yeah definitely loop us in on secondary findings. I feel like knowing what secondaries to choose is going to be the art form in 9th and will probably be very dynamic. You'll have to really understand your list and your opponent's list.
My personal pet theory on lists -- In your sort of style of list (hybrid / more infantry based), I think bat / patrol (or patrolx2) lists are going to emerge as more optimal. Trading 2 CP to say... get Makari for planting flags (maybe Ghaz too), +1 to charge for your Nob / MANz squads out of deep strike, are going to be worth losing 2 CP to. Mech lists basically have to go mono detachment just to minimize what you spend on troops and because you're gonna be spending so much pregame on Kustom Jobs.
I am also very curious if Freebootas will actually turn out to be a powerhouse simply because people are going to be spamming MSU. If you can start triggering +1 to hit regularly, all of a sudden that Flash git price increase might actually make sense.
I still haven´t wrote off the FG neither, I fething LOVE the models and I like the way freeboterz lists play around; they forces you to be mindful about target priority and positioning.
Kind of unforgiving but extremly powerful. I mean you can boost a DJ or a Naut with KJ to 3+. That is I N S A N E.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Ghaz can't plant flags because most actions are limited to infantry...
But I like that list as well, but on Sunday I will be running all goff orks to give Ghaz a proper first game
Ghaz is like that guy that arrives second at every race and nobody remembers him. He´s missing so many things with that idiotic Monster keyword....
An infantry spam Goff list is nothing to laught about.
Jidmah wrote: Ghaz can't plant flags because most actions are limited to infantry...
But I like that list as well, but on Sunday I will be running all goff orks to give Ghaz a proper first game
Ohh, yeah, I know. Just that a Goff patrol enables him to keep his clan trait without being your warlord (He'll likely get Supreme Commander). Plus a Goff patrol can allow you a painboy to keep ol Ghaz healthy. Plus you can always mitigate the patrol cost with Follow Me Lads! I think there will be some strong lists that lean into it.
Emicrania wrote:
I still haven´t wrote off the FG neither, I fething LOVE the models and I like the way freeboterz lists play around; they forces you to be mindful about target priority and positioning.
Kind of unforgiving but extremly powerful. I mean you can boost a DJ or a Naut with KJ to 3+. That is I N S A N E.
Dakka Jet sadly is capped at 4+ to hit, because both are hit modifiers, not BS modifiers. Fun fact, this edition, it could hit on a 2+ if firing at a flying unit. The SJD could hit on a 2+, though (as its gun fires at BS3+), and yeah, the Mork / Gork could be shooting at 3+.
I could easily see a list utilizing like 10 Mek Guns, 1-3 squads of Flash Gits mounted (maybe you just go for a Spearhead and take follow me lads?), Baddruk, then just as many buggies / dreads / Mork (MSU units) as you can fit in to trigger the +hit and blow them off the board. You wouldn't even necessarily be bad at board control, because the majority of that army can be mobile pushing the centre while doing this strat.
Ghaz is like that guy that arrives second at every race and nobody remembers him. He´s missing so many things with that idiotic Monster keyword....
An infantry spam Goff list is nothing to laught about.
I dunno. Wouldn't this still be better as Ghaz leading an army of Evil Suns? More DS shenanigans.
Got to play Ghaz and Makari. Figure will need to go live in the mission scoring pages for awhile to perfect as I'm not sure it has any chance to win apart from points. Been tryin mixing clans, but I dont like the exclusions the clan racism gives. Kept boys at 10 so blast isnt maxed 2 per wagon. Can mob up after the bail out if needed. Forktress wagon can operate more independently of the KFF. Really miss KFF on bike =(
If you say, faced down 9 Eradicators, would you put the Mork in the porta? Are there enemy army comps where you would rather it disappear for at least 1 turn so it has a chance to shoot before getting melted?
tulun wrote: For those that have used the Mork much...
If you say, faced down 9 Eradicators, would you put the Mork in the porta? Are there enemy army comps where you would rather it disappear for at least 1 turn so it has a chance to shoot before getting melted?
If those eradicators aren't melting the mork, they are melting buggies left and right. Honestly, I'd rather have it right there on the board and hope they shoot the mork because they only wound it on 4+ and it has a 5++ for a chance of survival. In addition, the kustom mega zappa is probably your best bet for melting an entire unit at once, and it has 36" range, so in theory it can stay out of their range, or at least outside of melta-range.
tulun wrote: For those that have used the Mork much...
If you say, faced down 9 Eradicators, would you put the Mork in the porta? Are there enemy army comps where you would rather it disappear for at least 1 turn so it has a chance to shoot before getting melted?
Target saturation is the key and the Morkanaut can soak a lot of firepower. I'm playing with Mork, BW forktress, Da Boomer, 3 Buggies and If those eradicators melt the Naut I'd have 3 buggies, Da Boomer and a vehicle full of angry orks that can run over primaris itself to play in my turn. So yeah, I wish my naut survives turn 1 but even if it goes down and all the other amored stuff survives it's no big deal. Losing all 3 T8 models turn 1 would be a disaster but honestly I don't think it would be even possible.
I'd probably bait anti tank dudes with the buggies since they could make them waste a lot of shots (once deployed they're single units and SM player can't split fire with eradicators) but also the forktress is a good distraction as it's actually as tough as the Morkanaut (just 2W of difference, both T8 5++) but worths and actually costs half the points and the footslogging Manz can always be jumped by the Weirdboy if their transport is wrecked.
How are we feeling about secondaries? Been listening to some interesting stuff.
For our own choice of secondaries:
1) Repair teleport homer. Quite interesting, given we can deep strike cheap infantry units behind enemy lines (Kommandos for 55, storm boyz for 60). 5 VPs if they can last the turn, and also pull them away from the centre.
2) Abhor the witch. If we forego weirdboys (which would be sad), we can potentially score 15 easy VPs just by killing characters we wanna kill anyway. Also comboable with Assassinate making every psyker we kill worth 8 VP for the first 3.
3) Linebreaker / engagement on all fronts. Something Orks are generally good at is getting units into areas of the board.
Ones that seem to be bad for us:
1) Bring it down. The vehicle list we love basically gives up an automatically 15 VP for the enemy. 6 from Burna Bombers alone. This might be a real negative towards the vehicle lists we're exploring.
2) Abhor the witch / assassinate. Our characters are squishy, especially the weirdboys. Can potentially be very easy VPs for our opponent.
3) Attrition. If we go vehicle spam, we are also very likely to give up this objective.
The secondary game is a real headache. I wonder if the real best route, regardless of list, will be to go with the board control heavy ones, and possibly start avoiding psykers just so we can potentially take Abhor the witch.
There are a few secondary objectives that are situationally really good, depending on what you face.
- If you don't have any psykers and are facing GK or TS (or potentially craftworlds, daemons etc) the Abhor the Witch is fantastic.
- If you're facing Knights (or just a single super heavy in an army that's tough to score against) then Titan Hunter is great. It's slightly changed in the GT pack though as it's now 10/12/15 VP per 1,2 and 3 titans killed respectively.
- If you're facing some sort of vehicle/monster spam then Bring it Down is probably still your best bet.
- When facing something like GSCAssassinate could be a good choice. Even though Orks aren't character killers as such almost all their HQs and Elites are squishy.
- If you're facing a very elite army/ one that's lacking some shooting then I'd consider Linebreaker. That one also depends if you have enough mobility to get there and units to spare on other fronts obviously.
- If you have a infantry, board control heavy army the Raise the Banners High is a pretty good bet. Merely being shot off the objectives doesn't "cancel" the flags so it's a fairly steady stream of points.
- A safe bet for a secondary is Engage on all FrontsIMO. It's tough to max out but if Linebreaker doesn't seem worth the hassle then it's your best bet in that category. I personally don't think Domination is valued high enough in regards to VP.
- I think the Teleport Homer is tough since actions are automatically interrupted if you engage the unit in CC (IIRC) and also it's only worth 4 VP in the GT and not 5. Doing that for 4 turns seem like a big ask to me.
- Attrition is gone in the GT pack and replaced by Grind Them Down. It's the same thing although it's worth 1 less point per successful turn. So someone would have to kill more units than you every single round to max it out. It's still potentially rough for us, but not as obvious that you'll get the max 15 now.
- Bring it Down is almost a guaranteed 15 VPs for the opponent when facing a lot of Ork lists. If your army already gives up like 18 potential VPs for that secondary, I'd either scale it back down to 10-12 or ramp it way up so it creates a skew list.
- Thin Their Ranks could potentially be trouble if you're going full horde list or horde-ish supported by stuff like trukks.
As a general note, none of the secondaries are good against "spamming" stuff like MANZ, they only give up one point each in Thin Their Ranks, they're difficult to get Grind Them Down points from. They can do Actions, get all the benefit from terrain etc. I'm not sure how viable it it trying to create a list that's tough to score against (how much you give up to get there, how many other secondaries are still highly doable etc). But stuff like tough infantry currently doesn't have any secondaries targeting them.
tulun wrote: How are we feeling about secondaries? Been listening to some interesting stuff.
For our own choice of secondaries:
1) Repair teleport homer. Quite interesting, given we can deep strike cheap infantry units behind enemy lines (Kommandos for 55, storm boyz for 60). 5 VPs if they can last the turn, and also pull them away from the centre.
I don't think either of those units has the staying power to survive until your command phase. Hull mounted guns like stubbers and heavy bolters can easily wipe them out without any further commitment from your opponent.
A unit that could be doing really well at this one would be trukk boyz. At 12 they are sufficiently strong to survive some shooting and their trukk can block LoS and movement towards them.
2) Abhor the witch. If we forego weirdboys (which would be sad), we can potentially score 15 easy VPs just by killing characters we wanna kill anyway. Also comboable with Assassinate making every psyker we kill worth 8 VP for the first 3.
With the HQ slots now being limited, I would drop weirdboyz in vehicle lists anyways. He can't keep up and there are few units that can protect him, and most powers are pretty unreliable without the cast bonus.
For an infantry list, this objective isn't worth losing denies and da jump, warpath, fists, visions or seizures. It will be a free 15 VP against a few armies, but most also have their psykers compete with other HQ slots now, so even an army like eldar might only be bringing two psykers against space marines or guard you are most likely looking at no psykers, while tau, ad mech, knights or necrons never had any to begin with.
3) Linebreaker / engagement on all fronts. Something Orks are generally good at is getting units into areas of the board.
I'm not very fond of these since it's extremely unlikely that you can max these out.
You usually can't score linebreaker during T1 and from my experience, it's likely that you can't score it during T5 either because your army is gone. If your opponent manges to deny this for just one turn, it could be a winning move.
Engage on all fronts is quite easy score every turn, but normally it only rewards 2 VP. Also keep in mind that the primary objectives tend to be in the middle or very close to it, so a good portion of your units won't qualify for it.
Ones that seem to be bad for us:
1) Bring it down. The vehicle list we love basically gives up an automatically 15 VP for the enemy. 6 from Burna Bombers alone. This might be a real negative towards the vehicle lists we're exploring.
Is it though?
My list would be 6 from bommers, 3 from the naut, 3 from da boomer and 2 for each of 5 buggies. Assuming my opponent keep ignoring da boomer, they would have to kill the naut and 3 buggies to gain they full amount of VP. A lucky streak of KFF saves can easily ruin that perfect 15 VP.
It's not hard to give up those points, but by no means "automatic", I've finished games with a lot less casualties than required to max this, and I expect lethality to go down for 9th, not up.
2) Abhor the witch / assassinate. Our characters are squishy, especially the weirdboys. Can potentially be very easy VPs for our opponent.
Two weird boyz are just 10 VP though. Assuming you actually bring two, and not just one for da jump.
3) Attrition. If we go vehicle spam, we are also very likely to give up this objective.
I disagree. If they try to down a bommer or naut or battlewagon, that's probably going to be most of their shooting. Killing two units in return isn't hard - especially if you hit a character with the 'eadbut.
That said, it will be quite a bit of trial and error until we find our perfect mix. Personally, I'm happy to toy around with an edition again that hasn't been "solved" yet.
Theres still no faq on the saga of the beast book so i'd expect him to change soon as they finally stop looking at marines long enough to realize they gave orks something super powerful (cheap KFF that works in melee)
I'm like REALLY trying to be positive, but the more I look into it, the more it feels that ALL the last 6 months decisions, has been made with money as final goal, with a pinch of love for eldar, as usual. The rest of us, got f in a repeatedly.
That said, it will be quite a bit of trial and error until we find our perfect mix. Personally, I'm happy to toy around with an edition again that hasn't been "solved" yet.
Yeah, there's going to be massive trial and error.
From what I've seen from a bunch of playtesters, if you can roughly guarantee yourself 7-8 VPs from a secondary, even if it's hard (or impossible) to max it out, that's a better trade off than going for a hypothetical maxable secondary. Yeah, recon is not likely to get you 15, but it's very easy to wrack up 7-8 by end of game which is enough. Psychic ritual can get you 15 VPs with 3 psychic tests, but if you screw it up or they deny at the wrong time., you get nothing.
They are very, very hard to score by design. If there are lists of ours which give up an easy 10-15 VPs (as I made some examples of, Abhor the witch or Bring it Down), it's something we need to react to in list building.
Back to my repair teleport homer example: in a matchup vs knights (Apparently, 4 Questors is going to be a popular build...). With obscuring terrain everywhere, you could easily infiltrate small units of Orks into a corner and probably get this secondary off. Now, against a mirror Ork matchup with a ton of mek guns covering the back line, this might be very difficult.
The art form will be finding that list that seems to slot generally into scoring these secondaries. I think we naturally actually do fine on primaries.
Knighs move 12" and can shoot to full effect though, and my experience with obscuring terrain so far is that it does very little against mobile units with decent range - which also favors our buggies a lot.
In any case, against such a list you could easily just put a random unit into the tellyporta or da jump it.
But I think you might really be onto something with the teleport homers, I'll give it a try when running Makari and take count how much firepower it takes to prevent him from scoring 15 VP
Jidmah wrote: Knighs move 12" and can shoot to full effect though, and my experience with obscuring terrain so far is that it does very little against mobile units with decent range - which also favors our buggies a lot.
In any case, against such a list you could easily just put a random unit into the tellyporta or da jump it.
But I think you might really be onto something with the teleport homers, I'll give it a try when running Makari and take count how much firepower it takes to prevent him from scoring 15 VP
Man you could wrap him in 5 kommandos too, meaning it would take at least 2 units to even be able to *target* him. Against the right army, this would be so frustrating to them.
I still see no value in bringing 5 kommandoz, those are wasted points. Also keep in mind that only a unit of 3+ models can hide characters. For 20 more you can have trukk or for 5 more a kopta with rokkits that actually force your opponent go through all their wounds before targeting a character and have something to offer besides being T4 wounds.
Besides that, the whole point would be that Makarai needs no additional help.
Jidmah wrote: I still see no value in bringing 5 kommandoz, those are wasted points. Also keep in mind that only a unit of 3+ models can hide characters.
For 20 more you can have trukk or for 5 more a kopta with rokkits that actually force your opponent go through all their wounds before targeting a character and have something to offer besides being T4 wounds.
Besides that, the whole point would be that Makarai needs no additional help.
I will defend the potential of small kommando squads!
2 of them show up, ideally in the corners of their deployment zone, to score you for 4 VP for linebreaker. If they are in opportune spots (if you aren't playing Makari), one could also attempt a teleport homer.
If they can effectively hide, you will force your opponent to react and chase them down, shifting them off for their own objectives and the primary. If they can't do that, you're getting linebreaker and potentially teleport homer.
Just some potential in game nonsense for a small unit of Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only negative I see about Deff Koptas right now is they each give up 2 VPs if the opponent takes Bring it Down.
So the list needs to be very, very vehicle light, or basically so vehicle heavy it probably doesn't matter anymore.
I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.
Also, slots. Kommandos are elites and I never fill out those slots whereas deffkoptas (especially as discussed here) really eat into our already crowded FA slots. I'm not sold on kommandos either but I can see some merit in a 5 man squad, certainly enough to try it out.
I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.
Jidmah wrote: I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.
Fair. I'll probably try out some tactics like this when I play an infantry based list and see if they hold any muster. There are counter plays, but you could also try to hold it back until turn 3 -- people seem to want first anyway. If it seems easy enough to score either twice, it might be worth given "try to guarantee at least 8 VPs from any given secondary" is a mantra that holds.
They also can't place the teleport homers because they aren't infantry.
Yeah, true. I was speaking even generally of the unit. Sadly bring it down is not unit but MODEL based... so a 5 man Deff Kopta squad gives up 10 VPs like it's candy.
PiñaColada wrote:
I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.
My pet theory for infantry based lists -- You'll want 2 detachments anyway for HQ slots. I think going for a brigade is crazy given how we can't fill out slots cheaply anymore with grots. If you *only* need 4 HQs if you're taking Ghaz, then he can be your warlord, but I don't know if I'd even want to be 100% locked into Goffs anyway.
I bet a DS/ES battalion supported by a Goff Patrol is probably the way to go if you're going to take Makari. You can use Follow Me Lads to reduce this cost to 1 CP.
Jidmah wrote: I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.
have to disagree with the kommandoz part...they should be easily hideable. with the points increase armies generally got smaller with fewer units meaning less board coverage. and dont forget that cover is gained if in 3" of a ruin or building, so sneaky gitz get the cover bonus if staying close to terrain without losing the LOS blocking trait.
if not... you should really consider playing with bigger terrain pieces
PiñaColada wrote: Also, slots. Kommandos are elites and I never fill out those slots whereas deffkoptas (especially as discussed here) really eat into our already crowded FA slots. I'm not sold on kommandos either but I can see some merit in a 5 man squad, certainly enough to try it out.
I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.
I don't like the idea of Makari either, he isn't cheap at all for what it does and also requires to burn 2CPs for the second detachment unless going full Goffs.
I may disagree about FA slots being crowded: even with a single battallion there could easily be a room for a single kopta as competitively speaking it's not that effective to bring single buggies of different kinds. I'd only consider a squadron of KBB as anti infantry unit and a squadron of anti tank/elite so either SJD or MSJ, not both. Eventually if Snazzwagons become viable they'd compete with KBBs, they wouldn't be taken in addiction to KBBs.
Unless you really want to go heavy on buggies with 6-9 models. Bikes and stormboyz are sub-optimal, probably not even on par with koptas and the squig buggy doens't have a purpose. So yeah, finding a slot for a unit of koptas shouldn't be that hard, and actually fielding a single kopta is a choice that I'm considering.
Not sure about min squads of kommandos, although I see some potential in them.
My pet theory for infantry based lists -- You'll want 2 detachments anyway for HQ slots. I think going for a brigade is crazy given how we can't fill out slots cheaply anymore with grots. If you *only* need 4 HQs if you're taking Ghaz, then he can be your warlord, but I don't know if I'd even want to be 100% locked into Goffs anyway.
I bet a DS/ES battalion supported by a Goff Patrol is probably the way to go if you're going to take Makari. You can use Follow Me Lads to reduce this cost to 1 CP.
IDK... i am playing around with a list and honestly i don't know what HQ's to pick... a KFF mek for sure... but the rest? yes bikerboss is still great but lets face it... he wont be around for long, he is a legend unit.
badrukk - maybe in a flashigit heavy list? but honestly its hard to justify gitz for 32p per model snikrot - could see some uses... painboyz - meh zagstruk - meh maybe if lots of jumpboyz are around but for 12p per model idk warboss - seems allright with killa klaw and biggest boss, put him in a transport and wait till it pops or arrives at final destination weirdboy - only in infantry heavy lists wartrukk - meh i just dont trust that git, maybe i'm wrong on that one though SAG - dead
Automatically Appended Next Post: maybe two patrols arent that bad... 2cp's seems ok.
one deathskull with all the shooty stuff and a goff one for makari meganobz (maybe DS reroll is better suited for min mobs?), nobz and a couple of mekgunz (they dont benefit from culture anyway)
could help with the troop tax. gretchin arent as usful for 50 points and boyz need to be fielded en masse (trukks and footsloggin ones)
Automatically Appended Next Post: the list i am playing around (about 1500)
Spoiler:
warboss with klaw kff mek
couple of min kommandos min mob meganobz (double saw) tankbustaz in a warkopta
as little troops as possible
2x2 buggys (dragsta and boomwagon)
gunwagon (with boomer) lotz of mekgunz
burnabomber
thought about flashgitz in a squiggoth but abandoned the idea because twas too expensive pointswise
RedNoak wrote: and dont forget that cover is gained if in 3" of a ruin or building, so sneaky gitz get the cover bonus if staying close to terrain without losing the LOS blocking trait.
That's not how the rules work. You gain cover if you are within 3" of an OBSTACLE and fully behind it, ruins are AREA TERRAIN who require you to be inside them to benefit from cover. None of the pre-defined obstacles have the obscuring trait and only ruin walls have "dense" but do not provide a bonus to armor because they lack the light terrain keyword. Or, in other words, you cannot be hidden from sight and receive a cover bonus from the same piece of terrain.
Does "Bring it Down" work on per vehicle or per vehicle unit? If its per vehicle thats kinda bullcrap because suddenly vehicle units are a HUGE vp sink, not just orks suffer from that. That alone will stop me from using killakanz/grot tanks, nevermind the price hykes.
I'm not sure where people are seeing the rules for the secondary objectives.
Vineheart01 wrote: Does "Bring it Down" work on per vehicle or per vehicle unit?
If its per vehicle thats kinda bullcrap because suddenly vehicle units are a HUGE vp sink, not just orks suffer from that. That alone will stop me from using killakanz/grot tanks, nevermind the price hykes.
I'm not sure where people are seeing the rules for the secondary objectives.
It's per model, sadly. So a unit of 6 Killa Kans can give up 12 VPs.
RedNoak wrote:
IDK... i am playing around with a list and honestly i don't know what HQ's to pick... a KFF mek for sure... but the rest?
Easy. Warboss (or Ghaz), 1-2 Weirdboys, 1-2 KFF Meks. If you have Goffs, Makari can be tossed in there. Baddruk is actually still decent as a shooty HQ choice, although Flash Gits require some thinking right now. 32 points is... harsh.
You have to engage enemies on two fronts now for the primary, so you might start seeing 2 KFF meks in a more infantry based list.
To the whole Makari debate --
The same reason you bring kommandos is the same reason you bring Makari. They both help you with secondaries.
Still need to see the fw index and saga faq...
but I’m still leaning toward few vehicles and a mainly goff ghaz boy spam list as most competitive. Deny your opponent secondaries and use your infantry Obj secured boy spam to overwhelm objectives and play the points game... make your opponent waste all thier anti tank shooting and deny them most bring it down secondaries. Use greentide to annoy your opponent with respawning units and medi squig to keep ghaz alive. Play the anti meta game... Deny them warlord w ghaz, limit thier points w bring it down to mainly just 2x burna bombers. Swarm the objectives with melee buffed boyz and keep them alive w kff big Mek, and painboy. It’s a game of attrition where orks are aptly built to survive. At this point they can only win by denying you primary or killing off your characters and trying to secure objectives over your troops.
Secondary ork list is Deathskull buggy spam... which is likely more fun than the above greentide list but less competitive.
I’m hugely annoyed at this edition sloppy job at points and rules.. it all feels very rushed and no real attempt at balance was made and they can’t really blame covid since everything was already at print in April. I’m also annoyed that the PA books are not made with 9th in mind like Gw said since core rules in 9th weren’t used such as the cap on hit modifiers and saga having kustom jobs like pincha that adds +3 to hit roll!!!
Overall a sloppy rushed job and it’s obvious if you weren’t an army in the box sets they are only intended to fix it when they get to your codex...
I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ? When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?
I can guess what will be your answer, but for having been in front of someone disagreeing (in good faith), I had a hard time proving anything...
IronSlug wrote: I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ?
I was the only one suggesting trukks, and boyz literally don't care for any of that, no matter which way the argument goes.
When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?
its assumed to be an oversight the way transports work atm. The way its worded right now completely breaks open-topped, theres no way it stays worded that way.
But just to be safe, email the 40kfaq about it. They wont fix it unless enough people raise awareness of it.
IronSlug wrote: I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ? When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?
I can guess what will be your answer, but for having been in front of someone disagreeing (in good faith), I had a hard time proving anything...
I'm sure it'll get FAQd. The core rules has some bugs that we know GW is fixing (See: Smite spam).
The idea in a mechanized list taking another T6, 10 wound model with a 4+/6++ seems really solid to me for 65 points. I might be able to get some value out of my mandatory troop choices while providing even more vehicle wounds on the board? yes please.
Keep in mind, trukks are actually decently tanky for the points. There's a 30% chance either you'll save that 6++ OR get the ramshackle ability to go off.
Yeah, trukks went up by what, 1 point, which effectively means they went down. And 10W also just means 2 Bring it Down points so they're not as punishing there, and if you blow them up then a bunch of troop-tax obsec boyz jump out and hold the objective.
It might really work, or it's just a bunch of us wanting trukkboyz to be a thing again
Agree, at 166 points for a unit for trukkboys they are a nice middling ground between 50 points gretchin and 245 point full mobs. Unlike in 8th, they have clear purpose now and that is being a mobile troops unit for scoring secondaries.
The plan is to roll up everything killy up the middle and hope my opponent panics and tries to kill Thrakka ASAP. Classic threat overload, pretty much all of my threats suck to shoot, be it Thrakka, the naut, the forktress or -1 to hit deff dreads. The trukks are going to try setting up as many tellyporta homers as possible, or fight other troops off objectives. So in case you wonder why it's 1800 points... there was some confusion in my group around the point hikes and some people wishing for less points in their first game of 9th. So we somehow ended up with 1800. To get to 2k, I'd proabably upgrade the gretchin to boyz and add a burna bommer.
Their body is big enough where they can easily completely block off pathways, forcing the opponent to deal with them even if theyr empty, and nobody wants to kill one if its empty as it doesnt really offer much reward, even if it explodes.
So they will probably try to kill it with smaller weapons then charge whatever is behind it. The few times ive had a trukk in 8th that happened to me and the look on my opponent's face when that stupid trukk still had 1W and he was out of guns that wasnt lascannon-level was glorious lol.
Lack of purpose outside being in the way was the only reason i never used them that much. But like Jidmah said, they feel like they have purpose again. I may finally build that 4th trukk i got that i havnt parted out yet lol.
RedNoak wrote: and dont forget that cover is gained if in 3" of a ruin or building, so sneaky gitz get the cover bonus if staying close to terrain without losing the LOS blocking trait.
That's not how the rules work. You gain cover if you are within 3" of an OBSTACLE and fully behind it, ruins are AREA TERRAIN who require you to be inside them to benefit from cover. None of the pre-defined obstacles have the obscuring trait and only ruin walls have "dense" but do not provide a bonus to armor because they lack the light terrain keyword. Or, in other words, you cannot be hidden from sight and receive a cover bonus from the same piece of terrain.
ahhh ok i checked... i read it as RUIN WALLS instead of ruinED walls, guess i have to break up my ruins into multiple parts xD
btw... how does the cover benefit from kommandos work? what kind cover counts for the bonus? just light cover?
well when the price difference is less than that between grots and boyz while having the same amount of wounds but vastly tougher to hurt..... Trukk screens not so weird. Cant even say the grots cover more ground since coherency got nerfed. (i mean technically they do but just barely)
Do y'all think slugga boyz are the way to go for trukk boyz? I see shoota boyz being more useful in 30 man blobs due to limits on engagement range, but every attack counts when you have fewer boyz. I guess they can shoot out of the trukk, though slugga boyz can shoot their pistols if the trukk gets into combat which is something.
Yeah like anybody is ever gotta take skorcha missiles.
10pts on a model thats gonna use it once (T1 fly over something while it goes off the board. T2 come back, cant bomb so shoot at a distance. T3, fly to a character tarpit, bomb something on the way, explode)
Dendarien wrote: Do y'all think slugga boyz are the way to go for trukk boyz? I see shoota boyz being more useful in 30 man blobs due to limits on engagement range, but every attack counts when you have fewer boyz. I guess they can shoot out of the trukk, though slugga boyz can shoot their pistols if the trukk gets into combat which is something.
I honestly think Shoota Boyz are going to be better in all builds. 1 less attack per model feels far less significant when you're struggling to even get 2 ranks to fight. Shoota Boyz can do so much more from better positions.
I think mixing shootas and sluggas could be a standard way to run 30 mobz of boyz, especially those units that are designed to sit on objectives before they die.
I never mixed up the two kinds of weapons before beacuse I don't like it as a concept but now that only a few dudes get to fight the orks in the back rows can do something with some extra shots at least.
Ok for the trukks, I'll sure hope they'll clarify it, but I'll add my stone if they don't.
I don't like to mix up shootas and sluggas as it get a bit messy to my taste.
What do you guys think about a unit of 3 deaf dread full dakka (rokkit and/or kmb) with sparkly bits ? For a bit under 300pts you start to get some serious BS4+ dakka. Sure they are separate units after deployment so you can't really buff them more but they are still quite resilient.
Full rokkitz as boomboyz, it starts to hurt no ?
Thought bout that myself but in doing so you completely axe melee and theyre shockingly close to a mork price now.
Mork 340pts --Has KFF --2 Rokkits --2TwinBigshootas --KMB --3D3 36" KMB shots from KMZ --Still has deadly melee
3x KMB Dreads 300pts --Has no melee (outside basic statline punches) --12 KMB shots at 24" divided among the 3 of them
The Dreads would be more annoying but not really harder to get rid of, since toughness/KFF difference offsets the slight wound difference in favor of the dreads (24w vs 18w)
Mork has effectively the same amount of dakka, its just shifted around a bit (rokkits instead of 2 more KMBs plus some twinbigs) and part of it is subject to RNG so its maybe slightly lower but not enough to really notice. It does have range though, and that 36" range KMZ has enabled him to nuke something dangerous in the backfield way too many times to count for me that 24" wasnt able to reach.
I guess if you desperately need that 40pts it coudl be a viable switch but i'd rather just pay the 40pts.
So a thought just occurred to me. How well would a -1 to hit ork build do? We have a whole mess of flyers, the snazzwagons seem decently priced now, and we can give a unit of 3 dreads -1 to hit with dirty gubbins. You could take a fast attack detachment to cheap out on chaff and just roam around the field being relatively tough to shift.
cody.d. wrote: So a thought just occurred to me. How well would a -1 to hit ork build do? We have a whole mess of flyers, the snazzwagons seem decently priced now, and we can give a unit of 3 dreads -1 to hit with dirty gubbins. You could take a fast attack detachment to cheap out on chaff and just roam around the field being relatively tough to shift.
Problem is -1 to hit isn't that powerful, and a lot of armies that we will face have so many +1 to hits and/or reroll hits/wounds that it almost defeats the entire purpose of it.
Bigdoza wrote: If you bring any -1 to hit weapons with any army now that unit is essentially immune to any hit reduction shenanigans the enemy has to offer?
From what's written so far in the BRB that's been leaked so far, it seems so yes. So if you move with an infantry unit holding a heavy weapon, you wouldn't suffer any further -1 to hit penalties than the initial -1 to hit, though it is important to note that any positive mods can be nullified if there's more sources of negative to hit mods than there are positives.
On a side note, I haven't been able to find the FW Xenos points leaks online, is it confirmed that the Warboss on Warbike is around 100 points (excluding wargear) atm?
Dendarien wrote: Do y'all think slugga boyz are the way to go for trukk boyz? I see shoota boyz being more useful in 30 man blobs due to limits on engagement range, but every attack counts when you have fewer boyz. I guess they can shoot out of the trukk, though slugga boyz can shoot their pistols if the trukk gets into combat which is something.
I honestly think Shoota Boyz are going to be better in all builds. 1 less attack per model feels far less significant when you're struggling to even get 2 ranks to fight. Shoota Boyz can do so much more from better positions.
There is absolutely nothing that says you can't have slugga+choppa boyz and the nob in the front rank swinging while the shootas are in the rear.
Your units do not need to be homogenous.
My problem with shootas, personally, is that their shooting sucks. It's kind of garbage point-for-point. It's not like 5th edition where they were actually better at shooting point for point than Boltguns.
Add cover (+1 save, cutting damage in half against PEQ/MEQ), or -1 to hit (cutting damage in half). What is the point?
Dendarien wrote: Do y'all think slugga boyz are the way to go for trukk boyz? I see shoota boyz being more useful in 30 man blobs due to limits on engagement range, but every attack counts when you have fewer boyz. I guess they can shoot out of the trukk, though slugga boyz can shoot their pistols if the trukk gets into combat which is something.
I honestly think Shoota Boyz are going to be better in all builds. 1 less attack per model feels far less significant when you're struggling to even get 2 ranks to fight. Shoota Boyz can do so much more from better positions.
There is absolutely nothing that says you can't have slugga+choppa boyz and the nob in the front rank swinging while the shootas are in the rear.
Your units do not need to be homogenous.
My problem with shootas, personally, is that their shooting sucks. It's kind of garbage point-for-point. It's not like 5th edition where they were actually better at shooting point for point than Boltguns.
Add cover (+1 save, cutting damage in half against PEQ/MEQ), or -1 to hit (cutting damage in half). What is the point?
Against primaris, yeah, their shooting isn't ideal, but to be fair, if you're relying on shootas to do the bulk of the work you're doing it wrong anyways. The shooting gives them more flexibility than sluggas, who can only charge to do the bulk of their damage, and the choice to stay inside the trukk to whittle down screens and plink off the last wound off surviving units.
You can get some mileage with a 30/10 mobbed up unit of badmoons with more dakka and showin off. But that's a loooot of dice to roll with honestly not that much effect. That same combo could work decently with mechanical seizures as well I suppose.
Actually, the number of hits for the same number of Shoota boys vs say... Assault Bolt Rifle Intercessors (assault 3) is not that different unit per unit.
(50 shots, 3 extra hits from explosions is about 20 hits... vs 20 hits for the intercessors above)
The main difference:
Intercessors benefit from doctrines, can get re-rolls to hit and wound, have actual staying power with 2 wounds and potentially a 2+ save in cover, and are a decent threat in CC.
If Shoota boys could bring that fire power to bare over multple turns instead of getting blown off the board, we might have a better opinion of their killing power. Or if they had easy access to AP-1.
Anyone had any luck with any Ork lists for 9th after the points changes? I've got a pretty good collection, but can't seem to find a way to make them work in 9th after the points changes.
cody.d. wrote: You can get some mileage with a 30/10 mobbed up unit of badmoons with more dakka and showin off. But that's a loooot of dice to roll with honestly not that much effect. That same combo could work decently with mechanical seizures as well I suppose.
I think mechanical seizures works only for DS units, so not for double shooting bad moon boyz. To be verified though
Vineheart01 wrote: Thought bout that myself but in doing so you completely axe melee and theyre shockingly close to a mork price now.
Mork 340pts
--Has KFF --2 Rokkits
--2TwinBigshootas
--KMB
--3D3 36" KMB shots from KMZ
--Still has deadly melee
3x KMB Dreads 300pts
--Has no melee (outside basic statline punches)
--12 KMB shots at 24" divided among the 3 of them
The Dreads would be more annoying but not really harder to get rid of, since toughness/KFF difference offsets the slight wound difference in favor of the dreads (24w vs 18w)
Mork has effectively the same amount of dakka, its just shifted around a bit (rokkits instead of 2 more KMBs plus some twinbigs) and part of it is subject to RNG so its maybe slightly lower but not enough to really notice. It does have range though, and that 36" range KMZ has enabled him to nuke something dangerous in the backfield way too many times to count for me that 24" wasnt able to reach.
I guess if you desperately need that 40pts it coudl be a viable switch but i'd rather just pay the 40pts.
Why not including a big mek with KFF with the dreads lot? This way the comparison would be more fair, 340 vs 360 points. I would consider taking 2-3 KMB per walkers, not full KMB though. Dreads would be way more resilient than the naut, definitely more versatile, also better in combat with their 9-12 attacks that don't degrade, depending on how many KMB the dreads have. Shooting would be slightly inferior but deathskulls re-rolls would apply for any model compensating a little bit.
However I'm not sold on giving shooting options to dreads, or keeping all under the KFF bubble without spreading them after deployment, they've have served me fine as pure melee units. They're good distractions or babysitters for backline shooters. 3 dreads with -1 to hit are as resilient as a Mork with KFF basically, maybe even more and in some moments of the game they could even be under a KFF bubble.
cody.d. wrote: You can get some mileage with a 30/10 mobbed up unit of badmoons with more dakka and showin off. But that's a loooot of dice to roll with honestly not that much effect. That same combo could work decently with mechanical seizures as well I suppose.
I think mechanical seizures works only for DS units, so not for double shooting bad moon boyz. To be verified though
Yeah, the improvement on the AP only applies for Deathskullz units. The enemy unit that was affected by the power suffer the -1 to hit even against non Deathskullz units though.
Really annoyed how GW treats these supplement books in editions. PA book series aint the first that becomes a mess bit too quickly after selling... Leaving just confusion and frustration amongst players.
Why not including a big mek with KFF with the dreads lot? This way the comparison would be more fair, 340 vs 360 points. I would consider taking 2-3 KMB per walkers, not full KMB though. Dreads would be way more resilient than the naut, definitely more versatile, also better in combat with their 9-12 attacks that don't degrade, depending on how many KMB the dreads have. Shooting would be slightly inferior but deathskulls re-rolls would apply for any model compensating a little bit.
However I'm not sold on giving shooting options to dreads, or keeping all under the KFF bubble without spreading them after deployment, they've have served me fine as pure melee units. They're good distractions or babysitters for backline shooters. 3 dreads with -1 to hit are as resilient as a Mork with KFF basically, maybe even more and in some moments of the game they could even be under a KFF bubble.
I didnt include the KFF Mek for 2 reasons
1) That actually makes them cost MORE than the Morkanaut
2) Assuming Deathskullz because nobody uses KMBz unless youre deathskulz you still have a 6++ anyway and it doesnt force them to huddle in one spot, removing their one advantage of being able to spread out across the board.
Which now that i think about it is another slight benefit, the Dread trio would get 3 reroll sets as theyre 3 units once deployed, the mork gets 1. So thats a thing too.
Bigdoza wrote: Alot of armies get +1 to wound roll now ya?
I feel the deff dread toughness is alot more of a liability compared to the mork,especially considering how many damn shots people get now.
I'm bad at math, but how does sparky bits, freebootas, quad kmb dreads compare to deathskulls?
I think BS3+ vs DS on Hits is pretty close. The issue is the damage roll. Each Deff Dreads gets to re-roll a damage roll, which can be a MASSIVE difference in outcome.
Rolling a 1 on your damage roll hurts.
On +1 wound -- not really? I guess Salamanders and Blood angels, but i don't think its ubiqutious
Automatically Appended Next Post: It really can't be undersold how good lucky re-rolls are.
Like I would believe a 4 attack Deathskull Deff Dread with 2 KMB is probably more consistent than a 6 attack CC dread from Evil Suns. Just being able to re-roll that hit and wound roll smooths out your damage so effectively.
I could see a very potent CCDS Deff Dread assuming it's easy enough to get them into CC. I'd probably still keep the KMB, though, to maximize re-rolls and bust up the heavy infantry / tanks.
Going to be trying out my first game of 9th on TTS tomorrow, so this is the list I whipped up, any particular suggestions or critiques? Context is that I'm facing a Berserker heavy list, so I feel like I'll lose in the infantry vs infantry fight, so I'm keeping the ladz in the warkoptas until I whittle their numbers sufficiently before engaging.
Spoiler:
9th edition Ork List: 1500, Overall CP: 12-3 = 9
Deffskullz Battalion Detachment - 1140
HQ - 170
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, Attack Squig, and Da Biggest Boss Upgrade - 110
Big Mek with KFF, Warlord Trait: Kunning But Brutal - 60
Troops - 300
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
Fast Attack - 490
3 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 270
Megatrakk Skrapjet - 110
Shokkjump Dragsta - 110
Dedicated Transport - 270
3 x Chinork Warkoptas - 270
Grot Mob Patrol Detachment - 270 (-2CP)
HQ - 60
Big Mek with KFF - 60
Troops - 50
10 Grotz - 50
Heavy Support - 160
4 Smasha Gunz - 160
I'm considering putting the 4 Smasha Gunz into Strategic Reserve, though having them available at the beginning would help kill a few rhinos at the beginning, what do you guys think?
Grimskul wrote: Going to be trying out my first game of 9th on TTS tomorrow, so this is the list I whipped up, any particular suggestions or critiques? Context is that I'm facing a Berserker heavy list, so I feel like I'll lose in the infantry vs infantry fight, so I'm keeping the ladz in the warkoptas until I whittle their numbers sufficiently before engaging.
Spoiler:
9th edition Ork List: 1500, Overall CP: 12-3 = 9
Deffskullz Battalion Detachment - 1140
HQ - 170
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, Attack Squig, and Da Biggest Boss Upgrade - 110
Big Mek with KFF, Warlord Trait: Kunning But Brutal - 60
Troops - 300
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
Fast Attack - 490
3 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 270
Megatrakk Skrapjet - 110
Shokkjump Dragsta - 110
Dedicated Transport - 270
3 x Chinork Warkoptas - 270
Grot Mob Patrol Detachment - 270 (-2CP)
HQ - 60
Big Mek with KFF - 60
Troops - 50
10 Grotz - 50
Heavy Support - 160
4 Smasha Gunz - 160
I'm considering putting the 4 Smasha Gunz into Strategic Reserve, though having them available at the beginning would help kill a few rhinos at the beginning, what do you guys think?
Grot mob patrol for only 4 smasha gunz seems like a big investment for relatively little improvement. If you were running 8+ gunz I'd consider the grot mob. On paper, I don't really see the value in KBB over SJD or scrapjets, but maybe Jidmah can weigh in as he has run all of the buggies. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Umm, the KBBs are amazing as flanking units for a cheapo cost. Now that they can shoot into CC with the, quite frankly, amazing "da burning highway" strat they're looking even better. Don't bother with their Kustom Job but they have 2 really nice gun profiles and neither of them are blast so now it's not such a bad thing in trying to proc MWs with their spiked ram here and there.
Grimskul wrote: Going to be trying out my first game of 9th on TTS tomorrow, so this is the list I whipped up, any particular suggestions or critiques? Context is that I'm facing a Berserker heavy list, so I feel like I'll lose in the infantry vs infantry fight, so I'm keeping the ladz in the warkoptas until I whittle their numbers sufficiently before engaging.
Spoiler:
9th edition Ork List: 1500, Overall CP: 12-3 = 9
Deffskullz Battalion Detachment - 1140
HQ - 170
Warboss on Warbike with Killa Klaw, Attack Squig, and Da Biggest Boss Upgrade - 110
Big Mek with KFF, Warlord Trait: Kunning But Brutal - 60
Troops - 300
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Killsaw and a Rokkit Launcha - 100
Fast Attack - 490
3 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 270
Megatrakk Skrapjet - 110
Shokkjump Dragsta - 110
Dedicated Transport - 270
3 x Chinork Warkoptas - 270
Grot Mob Patrol Detachment - 270 (-2CP)
HQ - 60
Big Mek with KFF - 60
Troops - 50
10 Grotz - 50
Heavy Support - 160
4 Smasha Gunz - 160
I'm considering putting the 4 Smasha Gunz into Strategic Reserve, though having them available at the beginning would help kill a few rhinos at the beginning, what do you guys think?
I love the core of your list. I agree with Dendarien, though. Your second detachment is causing you to waste 110 points.
Let's do better. Drop the second detachment, and I'd suggest going one of two routes.
Switch a chinork for a trukk, largely so your KFF mek can keep up when you move out turn 1 / 2. Otherwise he'll get left behind.
1) Add 4 more Mek Guns with the points you save (110 + 25 = 135). Upgrade all your Nobs to double saw nob, KMB on the remainder?
2) 4 mek guns ain't much anyway. You could drop them all, and be at 270 + 25 (295) with the trukk swap. Swap your megatrakk for a 2nd SJD, but a 3rd SJD, give them the kustom job. (185 points left). Buy a burna bomber (30 points left). Buy KMB on two Chinorks, buy upgrades for to double saw nobs, take a grot on the KFF?
You could also keep the KFF with the mek guns after your army moves out to give them an invul. If that's the case, maybe just take 2 mek guns more, then take those 30 points to upgrade your chinorks and nob w/ saws.
I'd keep the mek gunz but bring them in the DS detachment avoiding the second big mek and grots. The exact amount of points for an additional MSJ or SJD. Or 3 additional Smasha Gunz if you cut the rokkit on a boyz squad.
IMHOKBBs are the best buggies at the moment. Cheap and mobile anti infantry which is something that orks need. There are lots of effective range anti tank options but not many mid strenght weapons with good rate of fire: with the nerf of Flash Gitz, Lootas and arguably Dakkajets there's only the Gorkanaut with massed S5-6 AP-1 (or better) weapons other than the KBB but the big walker is a massive investment in terms of points, CPs and strategy. Anything that a SJD does can be achieved by other units, while the KBB fills some kind of gap. MSJ are amazing for their jack-of-trades role and their kustom job gives them some kind of unique role as well, but without that job if you just need a ranged anti tank tool the SJD is better.
PiñaColada wrote: Umm, the KBBs are amazing as flanking units for a cheapo cost. Now that they can shoot into CC with the, quite frankly, amazing "da burning highway" strat they're looking even better. Don't bother with their Kustom Job but they have 2 really nice gun profiles and neither of them are blast so now it's not such a bad thing in trying to proc MWs with their spiked ram here and there.
This nails it. The KBB is great value for its points and you'll never find it useless.
As for scrapjets and SJD, they really do the same thing, pick one. SJD is more reliable and mobile, the scrapjet is more raw power, but slow. The main reason to run both is because of model availability, three of one kind is superior due to how kustom jobs, slots and certain secondaries work.
cody.d. wrote: You can get some mileage with a 30/10 mobbed up unit of badmoons with more dakka and showin off. But that's a loooot of dice to roll with honestly not that much effect. That same combo could work decently with mechanical seizures as well I suppose.
I think mechanical seizures works only for DS units, so not for double shooting bad moon boyz. To be verified though
Yeah, the mechanical seizures and DS trait would be sitting in as a replacement for the second volley. Cheaper CP wise, and less dice to roll. Dunno the maths but i'd imagine against mid armour targets you'd get roughly the same wounds.
PiñaColada wrote: Umm, the KBBs are amazing as flanking units for a cheapo cost. Now that they can shoot into CC with the, quite frankly, amazing "da burning highway" strat they're looking even better. Don't bother with their Kustom Job but they have 2 really nice gun profiles and neither of them are blast so now it's not such a bad thing in trying to proc MWs with their spiked ram here and there.
This nails it. The KBB is great value for its points and you'll never find it useless.
As for scrapjets and SJD, they really do the same thing, pick one. SJD is more reliable and mobile, the scrapjet is more raw power, but slow. The main reason to run both is because of model availability, three of one kind is superior due to how kustom jobs, slots and certain secondaries work.
Now that the KBB and Snazzwagon are pretty much the same points, do you think the higher volume of shots and grenades give the wagon some more life compared to the KBB? Or does that wonderful burnin' highway strat just hold too much gold?
Thanks for all the advice on the list guys! I guess I'm still a little too used to multiple detachments from the previous edition and it feels kinda naked to bring just a non-brigade single detachment. I've chosen to keep the smashas in the DS battalion and use the extra points to get another megatrakk skrapjet for the extra versatility.
If I do get another skrapjet, is it worth spending the kustom job for them to attack twice? Or is it better to go with the potential character assassination ability of 2 SJD with their kustom job?
Can't you shoot in combat with walkers? And Skorchas got a price reduction. Why not just throw Skorchas on Deff Dreads. Not a care about ballistic skill.
TedNugent wrote: Can't you shoot in combat with walkers? And Skorchas got a price reduction. Why not just throw Skorchas on Deff Dreads. Not a care about ballistic skill.
They average a wound on MEQs for each Skorcha.
Oh Mork, imagine that silly build? A deffdread with 4 skorchas that just storms into combat with mid to large units, gradually grinding them down with the autohits while doing almost no damage with the actual melee swings. xP
TedNugent wrote: Can't you shoot in combat with walkers? And Skorchas got a price reduction. Why not just throw Skorchas on Deff Dreads. Not a care about ballistic skill.
They average a wound on MEQs for each Skorcha.
Oh Mork, imagine that silly build? A deffdread with 4 skorchas that just storms into combat with mid to large units, gradually grinding them down with the autohits while doing almost no damage with the actual melee swings. xP
I didn't say four. I'm thinking two klaws and two skorchas, specifically on an Evil Sunz Dredsquad.
TedNugent wrote: Can't you shoot in combat with walkers? And Skorchas got a price reduction. Why not just throw Skorchas on Deff Dreads. Not a care about ballistic skill.
They average a wound on MEQs for each Skorcha.
You can but I feel like it wouldn't be the most points efficient thing since they only went down about 2 points per skorcha, so it's still a lot for a unit that only has functional 14+D6" threat range. KBB has the actual speed to take advantage of the skorcha profile with their strat and for only 90 points I'd say they're the better option atm.
Whoops, just saw that you clarified that it was a dual CC and skorcha combo. I think that actually might be viable now that numbers in the middle matter more and castling is less of a thing. Guess it depends on your meta, if its marine focused it's probably better to stick with 4 CC weapons for the consistent 2+ damage, but against guys like GSC or Eldar, I think the skorchas are a good idea.
TedNugent wrote: Can't you shoot in combat with walkers? And Skorchas got a price reduction. Why not just throw Skorchas on Deff Dreads. Not a care about ballistic skill.
They average a wound on MEQs for each Skorcha.
Oh Mork, imagine that silly build? A deffdread with 4 skorchas that just storms into combat with mid to large units, gradually grinding them down with the autohits while doing almost no damage with the actual melee swings. xP
I didn't say four. I'm thinking two klaws and two skorchas, specifically on an Evil Sunz Dredsquad.
Didn't claim you did. But I'm taking your idea to the next level simply because it amuses me and could be curiously viable. A trio of deffdread with evil suns, orkymatic pistons and a wartrike can cover a lot of ground with wonderful speed. and 4D6 Str5 ap1 auto hits is nothing to sneeze at.
Was eyeballing the pyromaniacs detachment rules to max burna bombas, but got me thinking on burna Boyz.
Reroll the burna dice with pyromaniacs.
10 man squad - 110pt
Roll 2 shots at least on the D3 with reroll and you about tied hits and str with an average round of 30 man shoota blob. Then they -2 ap in melee and reroll wounds. On top of morale immune if they get a kill.
Had wrote them off for so many edition. Is this worse than I'm thinking?
cody.d. wrote: Now that the KBB and Snazzwagon are pretty much the same points, do you think the higher volume of shots and grenades give the wagon some more life compared to the KBB? Or does that wonderful burnin' highway strat just hold too much gold?
They always have been the same points and nothing has changed about how horrible the snazzwagon is in comparison. Heck, it even got worse, since the burna bottles are blast now, so you can't throw them in combat.
cody.d. wrote: Now that the KBB and Snazzwagon are pretty much the same points, do you think the higher volume of shots and grenades give the wagon some more life compared to the KBB? Or does that wonderful burnin' highway strat just hold too much gold?
They always have been the same points and nothing has changed about how horrible the snazzwagon is in comparison. Heck, it even got worse, since the burna bottles are blast now, so you can't throw them in combat.
Huh, you're right. For some reason I thought the Snazzwagon was around the 90 or 100 pts mark. Yeah, it's hard to argue against the KBB being pretty good as an all-rounder unit.
the KBB is faboo, if fragile. It's good for most forces but it can really sing in the Blood Axes. Roll up, shoot over THERE, fwoosh over HERE, charge into combat. Twiddle your thumbs in the enemy turn, then fall back and fire some more in yours. Sadly, you can't fall back, shoot, and CHARGE, but you're still better than most forces with half that.
If you feel that Deepstrikers are on the way, Burning Highway is just a holy terror, fwooshing them too ash if they dare to try and charge you for a second round of briquettes after the first unit you fwoosh.
Oh, and as a reminder? You can take 1 at a time to fill up a Brigade's Fast Attack slots, OR you can take one in a single slot, which deploy close but then separate once the fight starts if you need more slots open.
The 2 damage on the rivet gun, with the good Strength, make sthem good for plucking small units of Intercessors, but otherwise, they own the flanks, leaving the bigger guns to take the middle of the board.
Snazzwagon WAS in the 100pt range, it dropped same time the KBB did to 80pts.
There is no reason to ever use it. Unless they finally faq it to say the Kustom Job was supposed to not drop its str/ap, its trash. If they do faq that....oh...ok they got good suddenly lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've seen a scan of the Ork FW stuff for points.
Yeah, Squiggoth and Zhard aren't listed. How... odd. Especially for the Squiggoth. I wonder if it's a mistake.
I guess legends will be announced soon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also another fun fact:
Mad Dok is 90 points, not 100. Named characters seem to have all their wargear baked into their cost.
Warboss on Warbike is 100 points INCLUDING wargear. Based on the model, he must have a power klaw. I will laugh if they made him have a single Kill saw, which screws up his build.
tulun wrote: Quick Goff list I threw together. I don't.. hate it? I dunno if I love it, though.
Ghaz would be in a supreme detachment for the 4th HQ slot.
Note ghaz has no keyword so can't go to supreme command detachment
Yeah, apparently they went with the minimum amount of effort necessary to make old codices work in 9th. A proper integration will most likely not happen before the 9th edition codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RedNoak wrote: well the only melee weapon that fits the description would be a rippa klaw (20points)... so yeah thats fethed up...
also no squiggoth :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Gsquig, killtanks and the kustom stampa are LoW and 360,420 and 960 points respectivly (without extra weapons)
The rippa klaw is the close combat weapon mekka-dreads are equipped with, Zardsnark's klaw was called "Da Pain Klaw"
Until we get a new datasheet, it's still Index:Xenos 2 - so free weapons for everyone
Yeah, apparently they went with the minimum amount of effort necessary to make old codices work in 9th. A proper integration will most likely not happen before the 9th edition codex.
Yep. All that "PA books are made 9th ed in mind" and then can't have simple keyword added for Ghaz(unless they INTEND for Ghaz to not be usable with that detachment period...) and rules that gets made irrelevant in 9th like ad mech have. Makes mockery of that statement.
For added fun shadowsun has special rule called supreme commander though as that's special rule rather than keyword doesn't work there either. Couldn't have come up with different name for that ability?-)
tneva82 wrote: No I haven't but have heard some less than stellar notes of it.
Don't get me wrong, the rules inside are absolutely great for DG, but there are a bunch of stratagems which would have been situational to decent in 8th but simply make no sense in the context of 9th, like the one which allows you to bring pox walkers in from the battlefield edges or another one which allows three vehicles to ignore the penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
tulun wrote: Quick Goff list I threw together. I don't.. hate it? I dunno if I love it, though.
Ghaz would be in a supreme detachment for the 4th HQ slot.
Note ghaz has no keyword so can't go to supreme command detachment
Theres no faq for the SotB book yet, its assumed he and Shadowsun will get that keyword and probably a couple other characters for the hell of it.
Note that not a single character currently has that keyword. Period. And all the marine ones that would are Primarchs, so they get in anyway (its an OR not an AND requirement). Also note that Shadowsun has a rule that is called exactly the same thing, but not the keyword, and Ghaz has the same rule but its Ork-fluff worded.
Its probably safe to assume he can use the Supreme Command detachment.
Don't get me wrong, the rules inside are absolutely great for DG, but there are a bunch of stratagems which would have been situational to decent in 8th but simply make no sense in the context of 9th, like the one which allows you to bring pox walkers in from the battlefield edges or another one which allows three vehicles to ignore the penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
But out masters from GW say it was wholly within the design space of 9th ed.
Trying to expand my horizons by forcing different lists together to explore all avenues for 9th.
Made a heavy Pyromaniacs list. Seems like with all the flamers, can advance and fire with no penalty anyway so kind of like derpier evil sunz. Torch the 5 man units off of objectives np.
Tried to also only offer up one easy max secondary to opponent (the vehicles).
tulun wrote: Quick Goff list I threw together. I don't.. hate it? I dunno if I love it, though.
Ghaz would be in a supreme detachment for the 4th HQ slot.
Note ghaz has no keyword so can't go to supreme command detachment
Theres no faq for the SotB book yet, its assumed he and Shadowsun will get that keyword and probably a couple other characters for the hell of it.
Note that not a single character currently has that keyword. Period. And all the marine ones that would are Primarchs, so they get in anyway (its an OR not an AND requirement). Also note that Shadowsun has a rule that is called exactly the same thing, but not the keyword, and Ghaz has the same rule but its Ork-fluff worded.
Its probably safe to assume he can use the Supreme Command detachment.
Assumed, assume. Gw has mentioned keyword was more for future use. There's ork faq, there's faq for pa with shadowsun with no keyword added there. Atm neither of them can use so trying to put ghaz to it is blatant cheating.
Note having same named special ability doesn't allow as it needs keyword. Just as having new type of storm shield in indomitus for units there doesn't change storm shields of terminators. Or meltagun changing on marines and sob doesn't change ig meltaguns.
You play with current rules. Not assumptions. Or you allow me to play necron resurrection so it can be used even if unit dies? We know rp changed so i assume it works like that. Assume is fair rule right?
Not saying i'm doing it just saying its expected to happen so people are theorycrafting with it in mind.
Theyve already shown in numerous spots of the faqs we did get that they copy/pasted a ton of rules w/o looking into the unit itself and completely missed some things. Harlequins have a strat that is literally broken for them because they faq'd it with the wrong keyword lol.
Fully expecting another round of faq's when the new books drop. I bet the reason the faqs came out so early was for this exact purpose, let the fanbase proofread it and fix it later. Why else would they give us the faq before the release date?
Bigdoza wrote: Trying to expand my horizons by forcing different lists together to explore all avenues for 9th.
Made a heavy Pyromaniacs list. Seems like with all the flamers, can advance and fire with no penalty anyway so kind of like derpier evil sunz. Torch the 5 man units off of objectives np.
Tried to also only offer up one easy max secondary to opponent (the vehicles).
Pretty sure the skorcha missiles bring your burna bombers up 10 points each. So you need to cut.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I might try out the Big Trakk Supa Skorcha again. It went up something like 10-15 points, which isn't too bad. I think this thing is criminally underrated. Averaging 8 auto hitting str 6 ap -2 1 damage attacks at 24" is awesome.
The 3 MANz might be the best here over the nobs? Loses out on the extra attacks of the 5 nobs, but is cheaper. Tankbustas if I just need the anti tank.
9th edition is a complete clusterfuk release..
We have points for units in chapter approved that don’t exist
We don’t have points In chapter approved for units That do exist in the app..
We have strats and rules that just don’t work
We have keywords for units that don’t exist
We have books without FAQs And point adjustments that make no sense and is lazily done...
Since IOS doesn’t have the app yet what’s the points on zhardsnark... my guess is the app isn’t updated
And youre surprised how?
I dont think GW has ever launched a new edition smoothly. 8th was the closest and even it was a bit of a cluster, with so many units and even entire armies disgustingly overtuned as though they had no idea how the new damage/wound mechanics would affect things, turning what was once insane units into immensely overpriced garbage that even with their old costs would still be trash in 8th and underpriced insanely good units that due to how the damage/wound mechanic works are insanely valuable.
You'd think a company as big as GW would be able to release at least 1 thing that wasnt fubar'd on release. You'd think, but i dont think they ever have released anything that didnt need an immediate faq, even if it did get one it needs another.
So guys, what secondaries are you taking mostly? I've been so far focussed on Bring It Down, Thin Their Ranks and Domination.
Bring It Down and Thin Their Ranks have been very reliable and stack with each other: 9th should be vehicles heavy and so far I got lots of VPs thanks to these secondaries. All the armies I've played against had enough vehicles/monsters to get 15 VPs. Also my army grants easy 9-15 VPs on these secondaries though.
Domination worked good with my Deathskullz orks, but it has been harder to max out VPs on this one.
I'm now considering a min squad of Kommandos for Repair Teleport Homer: 45 points for a free deepstriking unit that can score points just appearing behind a building in the enemy zone. In some of my games they would have scored very easy points as an enemy unit may not be able to target them for 1-2 turns and probably wasting a valuable unit to shoot of the board 45 points of stuff. People that play with high buildings/ruins could abuse that secondary.
It stacks very well with Linebreaker as well as other than those Kommandos I'd just need a single additional unit to be in the enemy deployment zone to score points.
Vineheart01 wrote: And youre surprised how?
I dont think GW has ever launched a new edition smoothly. 8th was the closest and even it was a bit of a cluster, with so many units and even entire armies disgustingly overtuned as though they had no idea how the new damage/wound mechanics would affect things, turning what was once insane units into immensely overpriced garbage that even with their old costs would still be trash in 8th and underpriced insanely good units that due to how the damage/wound mechanic works are insanely valuable.
You'd think a company as big as GW would be able to release at least 1 thing that wasnt fubar'd on release. You'd think, but i dont think they ever have released anything that didnt need an immediate faq, even if it did get one it needs another.
8th was pretty good and ya they had a few adjustments in points mostly but it was well done for soemthing that was a complete rework and made a datasheet for every unit ever made.
Bigdoza wrote: Was eyeballing the pyromaniacs detachment rules to max burna bombas, but got me thinking on burna Boyz.
Reroll the burna dice with pyromaniacs.
10 man squad - 110pt
Roll 2 shots at least on the D3 with reroll and you about tied hits and str with an average round of 30 man shoota blob. Then they -2 ap in melee and reroll wounds. On top of morale immune if they get a kill.
Had wrote them off for so many edition. Is this worse than I'm thinking?
simply put? they still suck. 10 Burnaboyz getting 20 hits results in 10 wounds vs marines for 3 dead Marines, or 1.5 dead primaris. Saying that is as good as 30 shoota boyz doesn't make it better either since shoota boyz suck, especially since 30 of them now cost 240PTS! Jesus christ, 7th to 9th the price of a mob went from 180 to 240, a 33% increase. Back on point. Those Burna's are also incredibly short range and will be tough to get in position without a vehicle, so in reality you have to factor in a trukk minimum to their price. While they do get -2 AP in CC that isn't that good either since if they are in CC they are going to die and they won't inflict much damage before they die. 10 Burna boyz get 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7 wounds, against Marines thats 5ish dead Marines, good right? yup, but then they immediately die. And if you do that against a unit that can overwatch....game over. Basically they are too squshy, too pricey and lack punch to be worth taking. Either they get 2D3 shots or they get a decent armor save, otherwise they are bench warmers.
Bigdoza wrote: So the 10 man takes 3 marines out with shooting and then 5 with melee in a perfect world?
Think they made their points back
Yep, in the absolute PERFECT situation where you somehow get short ranged infantry into 8' range of a marine unit and pull off a successful assault yes.
In reality, as mentioned, you will need a trukk to get them across the board, you will need a lot of trukks because this edition is going to feature a lot anti-vehicle stuff and as such a T6 trukk won't survive very long. Basically they suck
I'm starting to see trukks more like my Gretchin screen replacements now. Cheaper than 10 boys.
I would put burna in chinork. It didnt get super sonic rule so not thinking it has the 90 degree turn limitations or any minimum move stuff as it stands, but aircraft. MRB says aircraft 'typically' have these lol. Auto move+advance that sucker 24" and burns dont care about -1 to shoot.
This comes as a suggestion after a game with on of the top player nationally and regularly top 3 AD mech player in the world.
ATM the meta will be cheap transport and troops spam.
The Weirboys are ther more for secondaries objectives than anything really. 720 points of Smashaguns are still insanely good.
Board control is so big is insane. You have 4 rounds to max 45 VP and what 5 out of 6 missions have 4 objectives? That means that once you control 2 objectives and you are able to deny one objective to you opponent, you can go 15-5 to secondaries. You do that twice, the game is much probably over
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whatever you do with your list, don't leave home with at least 3 trukk boyz. I might even try 6 trukkboy + kommandos.
The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Jidmah wrote: The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Jidmah wrote: The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Jidmah wrote: The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Jidmah wrote: The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Isn't that pretty much everything in the Codex?
Honestly, it's kind of nuts how much even 3 double saw units does to Primaris.
6-7 dead Primaris from 3 MANz with DS re-rolls... only 120 points. Good trade. Just gotta get there.
Jidmah wrote: The only MEQ you'll see are these days are devastator squads or fast things that tear you a new one when you touch them, so there is no need to mathhammer against them.
A unit that kill 1.5 primaris and less than one grav model is simply not contributing to your game.
Isn't that pretty much everything in the Codex?
Honestly, it's kind of nuts how much even 3 double saw units does to Primaris.
6-7 dead Primaris from 3 MANz with DS re-rolls... only 120 points. Good trade. Just gotta get there.
Combat is straight, it's shooting I have a question about.
Megasawz are gonna be a thing. "Just gotta get there" is the question. I can't hang up the phone on Evil Sunz, since it opens up Deep Strike, but as far as transport options?
The cost went up on Bonebreakas, but they are still efficient Primaris mulching machines. With a Kustom Job like the 3+/5++, they could still be pretty crunchy, particularly when loaded up with Killsaw MANz.
I don't like Trukks simply because they don't do anything other than move.
Honestly, it's kind of nuts how much even 3 double saw units does to Primaris.
6-7 dead Primaris from 3 MANz with DS re-rolls... only 120 points. Good trade. Just gotta get there.
Combat is straight, it's shooting I have a question about.
Megasawz are gonna be a thing. "Just gotta get there" is the question. I can't hang up the phone on Evil Sunz, since it opens up Deep Strike, but as far as transport options?
The cost went up on Bonebreakas, but they are still efficient Primaris mulching machines. With a Kustom Job like the 3+/5++, they could still be pretty crunchy, particularly when loaded up with Killsaw MANz.
I don't like Trukks simply because they don't do anything other than move.
I honestly think the Battlewagon version is better.
1) It's 25 less points.
2) With it's 8 extra capacity, you can take a min boy squad while carrying 5 MANz, which is all you'd toss in anyway. This saves you 65 points on a trukk for one of your 10 man boy squads.
I don't mind trukks, actually. 65 points for what you get now I think is really solid for the objective game.
The Chinork is looking spicy at 95 points now, as Rattler x2 is confirmed 0 points. The main issue though is it cannot hold objectives as it is an aircraft.. but it is a platform of death.
Chinork works not sure in trukks as I expect then to die in droves.
But chinorks the drop bombs and rattlers exploding in your opponents territory and emergency disembarking nobs or flashgitz who loot it for 3+ saves is going to be Nice...
Transport rules does not work. Can' t transport MANs. MANs shall march with moto warboss (adv+ charge) or da jump or other deepstrike. Evil sunz in any case. No other option.
Just wanted to give a quick update regarding the game I had today. We were playing 1500 points with the Scorched Earth Eternal War Mission. My opponent's list was basically a World Eaters army with 5 Rhinos and 5 units of 8 Berserkers in each supported by a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion. He also had a unit of Terminators that were upgraded to Red Butchers.
In terms of secondaries, he was aiming for Raze, Bring It Down, and Engage on All Fronts. I on the other hand, went for Bring It Down, Raze and Linebreaker.
I managed to win the roll off and got first turn, unfortunately for him, he failed to pass his DA's prayer to get a 5+ invuln, and he had bunched up in the middle of his board. I was able to draw a bead on the majority of his units and thanks to the high mobility of my list, I was able to pop 3 of his rhinos and cut down most of his berserkers inside due to a mixture of terrible rolling on his part and consistently good rolls for mine. This meant that his T1 was severely limited since he effectively only had 2 rhinos untouched that couldn't really risk contesting my objectives that I held in the middle. He managed to tie up one of my chinorks with a surviving 2 man squad of berserkers and a rhino and attempted a long-bomb charge of 10" but failed. At this point, he was only able to get about 4 VP from his secondary, and failed to kill any of my units. My T2 came around and since he had tagged my KBB (despite me warning him) with that 2 man berserker squad, he got flamed into oblivion with that squad and I effectively brought him down to only his two HQ's, and 2 depleted squads of berserkers alongside his yet-to-arrive terminators. Since he was pretty much about to tabled at this point and couldn't contest my basically untouched army, he conceded thanks to my early lead by his T2.
Given both our inexperience with 9th ed so far, I would definitely say that getting T1 is a lot more important than it is in 8th ed style missions, just because so many missions require you to be on them by T2 onwards. Furthermore, having central board control pretty much lets you dictate the flow of the battle and who generates the VP's. I wouldn't look too much into my list being the reason for my win, I think it was a mixture of my opponent not having any meaningful ranged units in his list that could trade shots or fast units to tie mine up. We were also playing on a more conventional ITC board that doesn't really reflect how much more terrain that is expected in 9th, so I feel that given mine was definitely more of a shooty list that it favoured me over his CC-oriented army.
Overall, still a pretty fun game, those chinorks are no joke though. Between the weight of shots and re-rolls, them and the buggies basically chewed through unit after unit.
Honestly, it's kind of nuts how much even 3 double saw units does to Primaris.
6-7 dead Primaris from 3 MANz with DS re-rolls... only 120 points. Good trade. Just gotta get there.
Combat is straight, it's shooting I have a question about.
Megasawz are gonna be a thing. "Just gotta get there" is the question. I can't hang up the phone on Evil Sunz, since it opens up Deep Strike, but as far as transport options?
The cost went up on Bonebreakas, but they are still efficient Primaris mulching machines. With a Kustom Job like the 3+/5++, they could still be pretty crunchy, particularly when loaded up with Killsaw MANz.
I don't like Trukks simply because they don't do anything other than move.
I honestly think the Battlewagon version is better.
1) It's 25 less points.
2) With it's 8 extra capacity, you can take a min boy squad while carrying 5 MANz, which is all you'd toss in anyway. This saves you 65 points on a trukk for one of your 10 man boy squads.
I don't mind trukks, actually. 65 points for what you get now I think is really solid for the objective game.
The Chinork is looking spicy at 95 points now, as Rattler x2 is confirmed 0 points. The main issue though is it cannot hold objectives as it is an aircraft.. but it is a platform of death.
Pretty sure the Chinork isn't aircraft and can still hold objectives? The FW Xenos Index didn't add any keywords to them AFAIK.
Hey guys, looking at restarting my Orks for 9th Edition and because I want to run Ghaz im looking at Goffs. What I've come up with:
-Ghaz
-x2 Big Meks with KFF
-x30 Slugga Boyz, Nobs with Big Choppas in x3 Squads of 10
-x3 Bonebreakers
-x2 squads of x10 Tankbustas
-x2 Trukks (Big Meks Here)
-x2 Burna Bombers
Idea would be to deep strike Ghaz with the teleporta stratagem and then have the rest my army being super mobile zipping around the board. Looking at Bonebreakers so I could leave my Boyz on objectives while they go ahead and tie up the enemy and squish stuff.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys, looking at restarting my Orks for 9th Edition and because I want to run Ghaz im looking at Goffs. What I've come up with:
Spoiler:
-Ghaz
-x2 Big Meks with KFF
-x30 Slugga Boyz, Nobs with Big Choppas in x3 Squads of 10
-x3 Bonebreakers
-x2 squads of x10 Tankbustas
-x2 Trukks (Big Meks Here)
-x2 Burna Bombers
Idea would be to deep strike Ghaz with the teleporta stratagem and then have the rest my army being super mobile zipping around the board. Looking at Bonebreakers so I could leave my Boyz on objectives while they go ahead and tie up the enemy and squish stuff.
No Makari?
You might want to look a bit more into some more shooting options instead of your bone breakers (a naut or a gunweagon with da boomer, for example), but in general this list should work as it is. If you keep the list as it is, don't forget to put kustom jobs on your bonebreakas, forktress, red rolla and squig tires all are work well for them.
Also, keep in mind that KFF do not protect the transports they are in anymore due to the new datasheet, unless you are using MA Big Meks.
To my mind if your spamming wagons then the one armed with forktress is best used as a flanker, given cheaper riders while the heavier hitters would be near the middle and supported by a KFF mek of some variety.
Like, 2 wagons with small squads of meganobs with a KFF beside them while the forktress has a larger but cheaply armed nob squad. Perhaps another squad of meganobs sitting in a truck making up the other flanker. Just to force the enemies to make choices as you try to cram armor and choppy units down their throat.
cody.d. wrote: To my mind if your spamming wagons then the one armed with forktress is best used as a flanker, given cheaper riders while the heavier hitters would be near the middle and supported by a KFF mek of some variety.
Like, 2 wagons with small squads of meganobs with a KFF beside them while the forktress has a larger but cheaply armed nob squad. Perhaps another squad of meganobs sitting in a truck making up the other flanker. Just to force the enemies to make choices as you try to cram armor and choppy units down their throat.
cody.d. wrote: To my mind if your spamming wagons then the one armed with forktress is best used as a flanker, given cheaper riders while the heavier hitters would be near the middle and supported by a KFF mek of some variety.
Like, 2 wagons with small squads of meganobs with a KFF beside them while the forktress has a larger but cheaply armed nob squad. Perhaps another squad of meganobs sitting in a truck making up the other flanker. Just to force the enemies to make choices as you try to cram armor and choppy units down their throat.
Wouldn't the KFF have a hard time keeping up?
Well he's going to be sprinting, and he'll probably start with his bubble on the front end of it. You should be able to have him in range for at least 1 or 2 moves right? Though deffrolla makes this more difficult as it stretches the area you need to cover. Blood hell I wish they didn't take away our Mek Bikers. :_:
In my experience, due to the size of wagons with deff rolla and the requirement to have all parts of the hull within 9", a foot mek will not be able to cover them after your first move.
Now that would have been an awesome buggy instead of the Snazz, which is basically the same exact thing of another buggy the KBB A proper support buggy, where its offense is limited (1-2 KMBs or a Mek Gun option) but it has a KFF and perhaps something else to support vehicles. Probably end up an HQ at that point but still would be cool.
Vineheart01 wrote: Now that would have been an awesome buggy instead of the Snazz, which is basically the same exact thing of another buggy the KBB A proper support buggy, where its offense is limited (1-2 KMBs or a Mek Gun option) but it has a KFF and perhaps something else to support vehicles. Probably end up an HQ at that point but still would be cool.
It also just could have had its smoke cloud as an aura.
So during the reveal there was a flash of green and I decided to stitch it together using the CSI zoom and enhance suit
This is what I got, some things:
1. Left hand comes from a different model
2. Right hand has either a metal gauntlet, or is cybernetic
3. We lost our hunch, we're now Slavic instead.
Shokkjump Dragsta strikes me as being appropriately Mek-y. Perhaps in another reality where the buggies had wargear options we could have gotten a version that swaps out the Tunnel for a KFF.
In other news, more confirmation of a new Ork character model, looks fairly Warboss-y. Hard to tell if the rumor engine of the boot on an ammo box matches up as we don't see anything from the knee down.
Looks like they are finally redoing the ork boys.
Unless they are noticeably bigger they look similar enough the old boys won’t be completely out of place
This doesn’t look like a new character it looks like a Choppa boy
They "might" increase their scale a bit, as one of the common complaints is orks look oddly wimpy in the game but are massive in the artwork. A boy is bigger than a tac marine in the art, noticably bigger. But in the game, the boy is slightly smaller.
Course that could also lead down the same path Primaris did, of its not an updated model its a "new" unit. Tuff Boyz, T4 S5 sv5+ 5+ 3atk 1w. Somewhere between boyz/nobz basically.
That’s also not that weird pole saw we saw before so I still expect a new character...
But ya new boy means a planned much larger release...
I’m kinda hoping we see the story move to armeggedon with Angron for a chaos/imperial/ork bigger campaign...
I'm using this tomorrow in a semi-competitive 2k game using the new GT missions against a white scar list which is using some of the new indomitus models.
Will try and post an update of how it went, but I think this list is fairly solid.
Battalion
HQ Ghazghkull Thraka 300 points
Weirdboy Warphead 1 CP (Smite, Da Jump, Warpath) 75 pts
Big Mek with Kustom Force Field 80 pts
Troops & Transports
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
30 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga,Three Boyz have a Tankbusta Bomb 250 pts (+1 CP Skarboyz)
30 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga,Three Boyz have a Tankbusta Bomb 250 pts (+1 CP Skarboyz)
10 Shoota Boyz, Boss Nob has a Shoota, one Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 80 pts
Elite
5 Meganobz with a pair of Killsaws 200 pts
Trukk with Big Shoota 65 pts
Eonfuzz wrote: So during the reveal there was a flash of green and I decided to stitch it together using the CSI zoom and enhance suit
This is what I got, some things:
1. Left hand comes from a different model
2. Right hand has either a metal gauntlet, or is cybernetic
3. We lost our hunch, we're now Slavic instead.
My money is also on new boys. Weapons are too basic to be a character and too uncharacteristic to be from a new unit.
Eonfuzz wrote: So during the reveal there was a flash of green and I decided to stitch it together using the CSI zoom and enhance suit
This is what I got, some things:
1. Left hand comes from a different model
2. Right hand has either a metal gauntlet, or is cybernetic
3. We lost our hunch, we're now Slavic instead.
My money is also on new boys. Weapons are too basic to be a character and too uncharacteristic to be from a new unit.
I think it could be one of three things, one being a bit reachy;
Kommandos. The sculpts are pretty old and they're resin, which GW is kind of trying to move away from.
KFF mek. This doesn't actually have an official model that isn't in mega armour, and they just gave us the rules in SotB.
Mad Dog Grotsnik. This model is ancient, and has featured heavily in Ghaz' recent fluff. Also, the shape of the slugga featured looks more or less the same as the doks current one, and both minis are more or less bare chested based on that image.
Pickled_egg wrote: I'm using this tomorrow in a semi-competitive 2k game using the new GT missions against a white scar list which is using some of the new indomitus models.
Will try and post an update of how it went, but I think this list is fairly solid.
Battalion
HQ Ghazghkull Thraka 300 points
Weirdboy Warphead 1 CP (Smite, Da Jump, Warpath) 75 pts
Big Mek with Kustom Force Field 80 pts
Troops & Transports
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
10 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga, One Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 90 pts
Chinork with 2x Rattler Kannons, 2 x Bigbombz and a big shoota 90 pts
30 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga,Three Boyz have a Tankbusta Bomb 250 pts (+1 CP Skarboyz)
30 Slugga & Choppa Ork Boyz, Boss Nob has a Power Klaw and Slugga,Three Boyz have a Tankbusta Bomb 250 pts (+1 CP Skarboyz)
10 Shoota Boyz, Boss Nob has a Shoota, one Boy has a Tankbusta Bomb 80 pts
Elite
5 Meganobz with a pair of Killsaws 200 pts
Trukk with Big Shoota 65 pts
Nob with WAAAAGH Banner & Power Klaw 95 pts
Painboy with Power Klaw 65 pts
So played the game today using Tabletop simulator.
Sadly the game crashed on the beginning of White Scars turn 4 and I lost my auto save which was annoying as hell as I usually don't have issues with TTS, but here are my observations.
1. We seem to play an odd style now where we just occupy no man's land, plant banners, scratch our orky behinds and wait for soft targets to come close to charge them. The massed boyz and board control worked really well, and were keeping me in the game points wise. Boyz are still the beating heart of the ork codex, and the solution is always more boyz, never less boyz.
2. The Trukk died on turn one. I wasn't surprised really as my opponent was running two squads of the new melta primaris. I got up onto a central objective with it and despite some dense cover from a wood it got popped immediately. I guess my point here is that I'm not sure Trukks are the answer if the meta is going to be about killing vehicles. think i'd rather spam boyz and make them waste those melta shots. Of course its an "all in strategy" that can be hard countered by blast but not sure we have a choice.
3. The Mega Nobz held up an entire flank for three turns of the game before finally shuffling off this mortal coil, they seemed solid as a bit of an anvil to plonk on an objective but not sure they did anything a unit of 30 boyz couldn't have done.
4. Chinorks are good.... don't expect them to live long with T8 8 Wounds and a 4+ save. As they now have the aircraft keyword you can't hide them behind obscuring terrain but for 90 points putting out 4D6 S5 -2 D3 shots in what is likely to be a primaris meta is very good.
5. Was impressed by Ghaz. Even though we are still awaiting an FAQ on SotB and he cannot benefit from his own Advance and charge rule he gets across the smaller table surprisingly quickly. He works as the ultimate distraction carnifex as you opponent has to put a lot into him to kill him meaning they aren't as focused on your big blobs of lads sitting on the objectives. Bought me valuable time. Babysat him with a Painboy for the Medi Squig strat to increase his durability.
All told the game was tight and I was racking up points, Could have gone either way. The White scar list was by no means optimized as he was experimenting with most of the new units from Indomitus, if he had been spamming Aggressors or something it might have been lights out. But that's going to depend largely on the meta.
