Boltstorm aggressors also have a fragstom launcher so they're 45ppm. The flamestorm aggressors (the ones no-one uses since they're terrible in comparison) are 40ppm.
PiñaColada wrote: Boltstorm aggressors also have a fragstom launcher so they're 45ppm. The flamestorm aggressors (the ones no-one uses since they're terrible in comparison) are 40ppm.
Pina ninja'ed me. But yeah, if you absolutely must panic about every single thing marine related in this ork tactics thread, please check your facts first.
The squig launcha and heavy squig launcha are blast. Does this move the Rukkatrukk out of the category of complete garbage or is it still garbage just less so?
He would get the Goff culture that way though, and with the SSAG no longer being mandatory there are worse ways to use your warlord trait.
Too bad Makari can't go into the detachment as well :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
russellmoo wrote: The squig launcha and heavy squig launcha are blast. Does this move the Rukkatrukk out of the category of complete garbage or is it still garbage just less so?
It's still worse at killing hordes than the KBB, especially with burning highway.
The snazzwagon's burna bottles got blast rules though, so it actually got a little bump from that.
Jidmah wrote: He would get the Goff culture that way though, and with the SSAG no longer being mandatory there are worse ways to use your warlord trait.
Too bad Makari can't go into the detachment as well :(
Yeah, it really says, because Ghaz is an HQ and NOT a LoW:
"Get a free HQ slot for the cost of your warlord trait, plus Ghaz gets to punch stuff a bit better"
I'm more interested in Follow me Lads at this time for my warlord trait for the extra CP.
tulun wrote: Well, no supreme command detachment for us
Unless Ghaz counts... he'd have to be your warlord, though. But you'd get 3-4 CP back.
I’m assuming ghaz gets it and I’m assuming the idea is nearly every army gets a single supreme commander
Some armies like dark elder need to wait...
regarding makari I’m hoping there is some bespoke rules allowing him to join ghaz in the supreme command detachment.
Without seeing more changes though ghaz still isn’t worth it and I still rather use SSAG to kill all the monsters and vehicles that will be everywhere. It’s also blast now too.
They made several books but I honestly don’t see the need for them.
Open play cards I don’t think are useful since I’ve never played a power level only random open play game.
The crusade book looks like it’s just something I can print online and jot down my armies stuff and doesn’t have any cool missions like the old imperial armor books.
The points book is just points which will be on BattleScribe and the official Gw army builder
And the tournament book? I don’t run tournaments and I expect the main missions will be in the rule book anyway..
I think I’ll just save my cash until the rulebook is sold.. And figure out what I need from there.
I could see them doing Ghaz and Makari as a team, that's what they did with Deamonafluge or whatever its called and her Harlequinn buddy. They are on the same stat card.
Haasbioroid wrote: I could see them doing Ghaz and Makari as a team, that's what they did with Deamonafluge or whatever its called and her Harlequinn buddy. They are on the same stat card.
I hope not. I wouldn't want to be required to take Makari to take Ghaz or vice versa.
I honestly wonder if Makari is going to become a godly objective camper / special action user. 2++ and you DGAF if he doesn't do anything else.
Without seeing more changes though ghaz still isn’t worth it and I still rather use SSAG to kill all the monsters and vehicles that will be everywhere. It’s also blast now too.
I'm being convinced that the SSAG may no longer be an auto take. If you're largely playing infantry only, though, maybe it is.
Benefits of NOT taking it:
1) Save a CP on Vigilus.
2) Warlord trait unlocked (potentially gaining another CP).
3) Potentially saving a 3rd CP on not buying a 2nd relic, cause you know Da Biggest Boss is gonna be there with his Klaw.
With the changes to terrain (Obscuring), it being immobile without a large CP investment (2 CP for more dakka, potentially 2 CP for shoot twice, and 1 CP for grot shields), and the fact that character protection is becoming more of a problem (what's going to stand by it?), I wonder if Orks are going to be better off exploring other options.
Being immobile seems like a bad idea unless you can shoot out of line of sight.
The cp generating trait is still the same and doesn’t add more then it did prior. BKB is still the most bang for buck.
The only thing preventing the SSAG is lack of HQ slots.
Da biggest boss on bike
SSAG
And weirdboy or big Mek w kff
I’m taking grots no matter what for troops so I have my character protection and if people want to shoot my ssag in cover 30x to go through my Grot shields feel free.
SSAG w blast means I will always have a target to shoot be it vehicle monster or blobs of infantry.
It’s only gotten better in 9th. Better terrain to hide it. More targets to shoot. It may not be an auto take but it certainly is still one of our best units.
I honestly don’t care about light cover since it’s an ap-5 gun... obscuring can be a problem but they can’t shoot me either if they are obscured so they need to hide completely.
Points cost will dictate everything this edition. The good thing about the ssag is it’s a relic based on the sag which at best is an ok gun. If they increase the points to much the regular sag becomes worthless. If they make smashas cost a lot more because “blast” then I can see traktor cannon being a bit more played.
gungo wrote: The cp generating trait is still the same and doesn’t add more then it did prior. BKB is still the most bang for buck.
The only thing preventing the SSAG is lack of HQ slots.
Da biggest boss on bike
SSAG
And weirdboy or big Mek w kff
I’m taking grots no matter what for troops so I have my character protection and if people want to shoot my ssag in cover 30x to go through my Grot shields feel free.
SSAG w blast means I will always have a target to shoot be it vehicle monster or blobs of infantry.
It’s only gotten better in 9th. Better terrain to hide it. More targets to shoot. It may not be an auto take but it certainly is still one of our best units.
I honestly don’t care about light cover since it’s an ap-5 gun... obscuring can be a problem but they can’t shoot me either if they are obscured so they need to hide completely.
Points cost will dictate everything this edition. The good thing about the ssag is it’s a relic based on the sag which at best is an ok gun. If they increase the points to much the regular sag becomes worthless. If they make smashas cost a lot more because “blast” then I can see traktor cannon being a bit more played.
I would never say a bad choice. It's just not an autotake, which it functionally is now.
I think it has clear drawbacks, which didnt exist in 8th. And Follow me Lads has more value now -- Orks are playing with *less* CP in 9th now, so every CP we can squeeze out is a good thing.
Orks are probably playing with 15 CP, as most of our army is probably dead by end of turn 3.
I would never say a bad choice. It's just not an autotake, which it functionally is now.
With the new detachments system no ork HQ is an auto-take. SSAG is still one of the best choices (assuming points values are the same), especially if it is Deathskullz and there's a Morkanaut in the same list, since firing twice with the naut can be awesome.
What do you all reckon, will buggies still be good? Maybe even replace most boyz units? Because I might end up with quite a few.
I just bought a Squigbuggy that I will adorn with an Allopex to make a 40k version of the Dickie Toys Shaking Shark I bought for my son Because that's propa Orky! I have a stock Dragsta and KBB each, a Taurox I want to convert into a KBB (could be used as a dragsta, too, I guess), the Squigbuggy I might then run as trukk for either Nobz or Burnas or Tankbustaz (Mad Max-style explosive harpoons from a vehicle, anyone) and I want a Skrapjet when they have it back in stock. Plus maybe a few more Skrapjets made from a hacked up Ork plane, I have tracks left from the Taurox and some old Russes, as well as the traktors from the crane kit. Two Skrapjets should be possible at least (one more regular looking, one F-117 Nighthawk-looking one made from the wings).
Hard to tell at this point.
If they remain mostly the same cost in 9th, they'll probably be pretty strong.
If they go up too much, probably back to overcosted garbage like they were on release.
Until we see points a lot of speculation like that is moot.
I would never say a bad choice. It's just not an autotake, which it functionally is now.
With the new detachments system no ork HQ is an auto-take. SSAG is still one of the best choices (assuming points values are the same), especially if it is Deathskullz and there's a Morkanaut in the same list, since firing twice with the naut can be awesome.
For sure. I'll even go as far to say the Mork is now probably the best user of shoot twice because it's capped at a bottom of 5+ to hit with Sparkly Bits.
Sparkly bits is a +1BS, not a +1 to hit.
So they stack.
I suspect a lot of things in 9th will suspiciously have +1BS now to completely bypass the new limitation. Because thats what GW does, they introduce a limitation and then immediately release units thats' whole point is they bypass that limitation.
Stormshields being +1 armor and 4++ makes me incredibly happy. No idea how many full units of stormshields i face, i zoggin' hate it as the wounds behind them force me to use bigger guns but that damn 3++ just plinks too many shots to do anything. I swear ive killed more wolfriders with shootas than i have rokkits or kmbs lol.
Though i wonder whered that 3rd wound came from...they arent in gravis armor (T4, not T5, and no keyword for it so they can use transports)
Ughhh they didnt change transport rules one bit, just cleaned it up with the revisions its gotten like same-turn destroyed transport and charges. Was really hoping they'd fix it so the weirdness of the unit "not existing" wasnt a thing anymore. Especially with the Big Mek's KFF not working on the unit he's embarked in.
Also, the argument that boyz on 28mm bases are getting more attacks is now moot. Its 1/2 range for engagements and within 1/2 range of own models that are in engagement range. No base is that small. So 2 rows can attack, no more, period. Good. Now i can shut people up claiming im "cheating" because i refuse to rebase my boyz, when theres actually comments saying i DONT have to.
I gotta say those secondary objectives look incredibly fun. I haven't digested how balanced they might be yet (except Thin Their Ranks, easy to tell it's blatantly skewed against horde armies), but they're creative and will clearly dramatically change the flow of every game based on each player's choices. I'm already a fan, they look to bring Narrative flavor to Matched games.
Wow... gobsmacked by this.
Spoiler:
Models to fight in the fight phase include: 1. Models within Engagement Range 2. Models within 1/2" of another Model within 1/2" of an enemy unit
I can understand the first half of the second point if it was simply referring to Models satisfying point #1 (though maybe not in the case of the vertical Engagement Range), but that qualifier is extremely harsh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah. Hordes seem bad at being in CC eh? Doesn't this like.. HALF the number of models we might get in from a 9" charge due to engagement range being 1/2" + 1/2"?
Okay, so on blasts and weapons with *D* it does seem that the total can never be less than 3. Not each dice roll can't be lower than three. So pretty much worthless on a Morkanaughts Zappa vs a unit of 6 to 10.
Seems like no one can charge through terrain now, needing the distance to move up and down it unless it's less than an inch, unless the terrain has the breachable trait.
Objective markers are set at 40mm bases
Meganobs sitting on an objective in defensable terrain could set to defend as their charge reaction to get +1 to hit in melee.
It seems like getting cover is on a model by model basis which is helpful.
Probably more interesting things but those are what stood out to me with a quickish scan.
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addnid wrote: Can bikes and véhicules and monsters all climb buildings now ? Or did I miss something ?
Seems like the scaleable/breachable terrain trait is key for moving up and down ruins, and only infantry, beasts and swams can do it by the looks of things.
Meganobs sitting on an objective in defensable terrain could set to defend as their charge reaction to get +1 to hit in melee.
Obsec Mega Nobs anyone? (Deathskull).
Objective Secure is still a thing
Oh yeah, the min squad of meganobz we've been seeing of late are kinda getting nasty. Skipping shooting to perform actions, sitting in cover to set to defend and possibly being in dense cover for +1 to save in shooting/melee. There's a lot to love in that bundle of metal plated ork.
cody.d. wrote: Okay, so on blasts and weapons with *D* it does seem that the total can never be less than 3. Not each dice roll can't be lower than three. So pretty much worthless on a Morkanaughts Zappa vs a unit of 6 to 10.
Seems like no one can charge through terrain now, needing the distance to move up and down it unless it's less than an inch, unless the terrain has the breachable trait.
Objective markers are set at 40mm bases
Meganobs sitting on an objective in defensable terrain could set to defend as their charge reaction to get +1 to hit in melee.
It seems like getting cover is on a model by model basis which is helpful.
Probably more interesting things but those are what stood out to me with a quickish scan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Can bikes and véhicules and monsters all climb buildings now ? Or did I miss something ?
Seems like the scaleable/breachable terrain trait is key for moving up and down ruins, and only infantry, beasts and swams can do it by the looks of things.
Breachable only lets infantry, beasts, and swarms move through walls, girder, chains, and foliage (so impediments to horizontal movement). Apparently you can't move through the floors with anything, but tanks can climb the outside of buildings to get to the second floor just as well as infantry.
Snipers got you down? Just charge a battle wagon up that building and crush them with the 'ol deathrolla!
Scaleable lets you pass through floors by the look of things. So ruins have scaleable and breachable. Letting inf, beasts and swams move up, down and through.
Ah, missed that one. I guess we'll just have to settle for the extended engagement range to clear rooftops with our tanks. Assuming that the warcom preview was correct (I don't see the relevant page in the leaks I have).
So it could be possible to put a bunch of gretchin units in strategic reserves ("outflank") for only 1 CP (up to total power level 9) and combine this with a shooty ork unit like tankbusta's and use the grot shield stratagem to protect them. Blast rules could decrease the amount of infantry in armylists and with that also the amount of anti infantry shooting.
or straight up DS the TB and use them as one trick pony, doing their thing and than die. 15 Tb + 6 squigs, ATM, are just 14 PL, so 2 Cp as before. If they don´t go up in prices, you can still bring some grot shield.
HOWEVER the multiklan, triple battallion list is dead, at least for orks. So might aswell use that BM patrol for something more.
Emicrania wrote: or straight up DS the TB and use them as one trick pony, doing their thing and than die. 15 Tb + 6 squigs, ATM, are just 14 PL, so 2 Cp as before. If they don´t go up in prices, you can still bring some grot shield.
HOWEVER the multiklan, triple battallion list is dead, at least for orks. So might aswell use that BM patrol for something more.
BM patrol is 2 cp, I am honestly not sure it is worth it (shoot twice being another 2cp). Perhaps if our units are cheap enough, and we need an extra detachment to fit them all in, but we desperately need our CPs with all these sweet kustom jobs
Patrol + Deep Strike/Ouflank + Shooting Twice is 6 CPs. With More Dakka even 8. Grot shield on those bustas is another CP. 6-9 CPs is a huge investment.
Maybe it could be ok for armies that don't need kustom jobs and more than 1-2 CPs invested pre-game to buff the HQs but it still looks a too expensive combo.
I played BM 15 Tankbustas + 6 Bomb Squigs a lot in 8th edition, all with the full 6 CPs combo (Tellyporta+More Dakka+Showing Off) and it was rewarding, sometimes even game breaking, but for lists that had 18+ CPs to start with, while kustom jobs and strategems from SofB didn't exist.
Patrol is 2 cp, so instead of starting with 12, you start with 10. With the price increases rumoured, We will see if we can make 1 Bat 2000 pt armies work for orks.
We have:
3 slots for FA (squadrons) -> Can be 600 points EZ on a buggy heavy list
3 for Heavy -> another 600
3 for elites: Meganobz seem cool this edition if their price tag is ok, so id go for 300
3 for HQ: 300
200 left for troops
RedNoak wrote: yeah mixing clans is the same as mixing factions... so much for soup nerf :/
you'll just need an extra detachment. Faction doesnt matter for the CP cost.
You are still losing like ten percent of your Command Points or so. That officially qualifies as a big frikken deal.
well as do monocodexes trying to mix clans/orWhateverTheyAreCalledForOtherFactions
So fielding for example: a deathskull bat and a evilsunz patrol is the same as fielding a guard bat and a blood angels patrol (as far as CP costs go)
EDIT: they missed the opportunity to implement a different subfaction cost... like if your detachment subfaction (ie marines, guard, tyranid, chaos space marines etc) differs from the subfaction of your warlod detachment, add +1CP to the detachment cost
Jidmah wrote: the SSAG no longer being mandatory there are worse ways to use your warlord trait.
Why is this? I been a bit behind on the rules leaks.
not really a rules leak thing. its just that the SAG was heaviliy depended on CP's. And since orks generally get less CP's as before it isnt as effective as it was in 8th (because of the fixed CP's you get depending on game size).
1CP to get vigilus (+1CP to unlock the superSAG relic) and then 2CP for moredakka (+2CP's for shooting twice) so to be as effective as before (i.e to delete something from the opponent you really dont like) you'll have to spend at half of your CP's (at a 2000point game)
not really a rules leak thing. its just that the SAG was heaviliy depended on CP's. And since orks generally get less CP's as before it isnt as effective as it was in 8th (because of the fixed CP's you get depending on game size).
1CP to get vigilus (+1CP to unlock the superSAG relic) and then 2CP for moredakka (+2CP's for shooting twice)
so to be as effective as before (i.e to delete something from the opponent you really dont like) you'll have to spend at half of your CP's (at a 2000point game)
CP investment, plus difficulty using it with more LOS blocking terrain.
I think the final call will come once people start throwing down minis on boards. If 18+ wound vehicles and aircraft are everywhere, SSAG is still our cheapest and best counter to that, for example.
Jidmah wrote: the SSAG no longer being mandatory there are worse ways to use your warlord trait.
Why is this? I been a bit behind on the rules leaks.
Multiple things:
- Less CP - terrain reducing firing lanes (all ruins are 100% LoS blocking for the SSAG now)
- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers
- less detachments and thus less clans and HQ slots
- vehicles being able to move at full speed and fire unhindered makes it much easier for them to flank and kill the SSAG.
It's still a great gun and you should always upgrade your SAG to SSAG when possible, but you really have to decide between having a SSAG, a KFF, Da Jump and da Killa Klaw now.
- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers
thats what i dont understand?! why? if its enough to have 3 models in front... isnt that the same deal for the SAG? just surround him with gretchin and he cant be shot at (like in 8th)
- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers
thats what i dont understand?! why? if its enough to have 3 models in front... isnt that the same deal for the SAG? just surround him with gretchin and he cant be shot at (like in 8th)
Grots die really easily.
And before, you had your entire army inbetween the SSAG and the rest of their army. So he was functionally untargetable, except by snipers. Now t hat's really not true, as you are probably moving your army to the centre.
ahh ok, i forgot, he can be shot if he's the nearest, is still a thing... well i guess put a smasha gun in front of him aswell?
EDIT: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers
thats what i dont understand?! why? if its enough to have 3 models in front... isnt that the same deal for the SAG? just surround him with gretchin and he cant be shot at (like in 8th)
Even against weaker players in my group I have lost 40 gretchin and 15 lootas in a single shooting phase, and quite a few of those gretchin could only protect those lootas because of the grot shield wording. If someone clears out the gretchin/mek guns to one side of the SSAG it can be shot from that angle now, even by a predator sitting 48" away. Before, a unit of boyz, a flier or a buggy in your opponent's face would have kept the SSAG safe for the entire game.
RedNoak wrote: ahh ok, i forgot, he can be shot if he's the nearest, is still a thing... well i guess put a smasha gun in front of him aswell?
EDIT:
oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
As with everything depends on points.
If boys don’t go up in points they might be useful still.
If They do just use grots.
They still might fix ghaz for 9th...too
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
I think GW is really trying to tell us not to use Boys this edition.
Fun aside: If Storm Shield wargear is universally changed, Terminators now have a 1+ save (Effective 2++ invul), as die rolls can't be modified below a 1.
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.
Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.
Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.
well on the plus side... are 1+ meganobz now a thing?
@haas
well just put em in a open topped battlewagon, on the other side.... a shame we cant use ammorunts as ablative wounds anymore (well.... effectively) because of blasts
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.
Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.
On the data sheet it’s just called a storm shield actually.
Regardless, there’s no way terminators will keep a 2++. That’s game breaking.
- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers
thats what i dont understand?! why? if its enough to have 3 models in front... isnt that the same deal for the SAG? just surround him with gretchin and he cant be shot at (like in 8th)
You have unit of grots, opponent shoot grots. No character protection, no grot screen. When is bunch of t2 w1 6+ guys hard to kill? Before grot screen was enough for snipers as rest of your army prevented shooting. Now opponent deletes grots and ssag is free target.
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.
Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.
On the data sheet it’s just called a storm shield actually.
Regardless, there’s no way terminators will keep a 2++. That’s game breaking.
Marines have been game breaking for a while. What's one more thing.
dont forget naught killing eredicators. and sice aggressors only went up like 10% they are cheaper now in comparision to other stuff... but yeah the bikes will be a hassle... 6 attacks on the charge with ap-1 and 5 boltershots (-1ap) at 15" is damn scary, especially on a T5 W4 platform that costs 40 points...
soooo i asked before but since its a new page..... if 1+ saves are a thing now, can MANZ legally get it too?
EDIT:
oopsie, forgot abou bolter drill... so thats 9 shots per bike...?
I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.
Marines have been game breaking for a while. What's one more thing.
Because they've nerfed it every time it's happened so far.
Buffable 2++ saves and 1+ armour saves have always been nerfed.
Just funny they didn't make Storm Shields give a bonus +1 to the save roll instead, but maybe they also didn't wanna give terminators a bonus armour save with storm shield.
some bloke wrote: I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.
I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.
Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.
some bloke wrote: I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.
I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.
Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.
ehhhm NO.
in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"
so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.
some bloke wrote: I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.
I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.
Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.
ehhhm NO.
in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"
so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.
Still had very few issues getting units with larger bases all in combat range. One model gets in range, it projects an aura of sorts that lets other models swing at the enemy. A kan base is like, 60mm right? So you can be about 70 or 80mm from the enemy but still swing with that second kan.
some bloke wrote: I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.
I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.
Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.
ehhhm NO.
in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"
so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.
Still had very few issues getting units with larger bases all in combat range. One model gets in range, it projects an aura of sorts that lets other models swing at the enemy. A kan base is like, 60mm right? So you can be about 70 or 80mm from the enemy but still swing with that second kan.
yes but its still more difficult than before :/
tulun wrote: No, it improves the save characteristic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another sad note too.
Deff rollas officially hit on a 4+ now, not a 2+.
Really hope they caught this day 1.
damn thats a bummer and the only reason i thought they would be fixing it
From what I've read of the rules, I believe that the +1 max may only to multiple +1 bonus'. If your ability gives you a natural +2 I don't think that's affected. I know of plenty of factions who have +2 bonus' but I think it's designed to prevent cumulative bonus', not natural +2 bonus'.
Just a thought, maybe they will clarify it later.
Because +hit modifeirs are capped, as far as we know this means it now hits on a 4+.
It sucks balls. But I doubt it's intentional. I'm gonna write em in with a FAQ for this and the shokk jump, as well as some general Saga of the Beast questions if they ever bother to write one.
We have to see the data sheets a lot of stuff is changing that no longer works across several factions. this is an easy fix by just improving the BS instead of the to hit roll.
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
That’s the kind of broken combos that gets FAQd to fix however I beleive wholly within only means a piece of every models base needs to be within. Even at 32mm it should fit
Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.
gungo wrote: We have to see the data sheets a lot of stuff is changing that no longer works across several factions. this is an easy fix by just improving the BS instead of the to hit roll.
RedNoak wrote: oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?
Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon
That’s the kind of broken combos that gets FAQd to fix however I beleive wholly within only means a piece of every models base needs to be within. Even at 32mm it should fit
The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.
Thoughts?
Good catch, this seems to work.
Ruins becoming death traps instead of "immune to CC" is a nice change
My mind is just pouring over the different ways we can use and abuse terrain rules in the new edition. Got a friend who plays Nidzilla who's also really enjoying the changes.
r_squared wrote: From what I've read of the rules, I believe that the +1 max may only to multiple +1 bonus'. If your ability gives you a natural +2 I don't think that's affected. I know of plenty of factions who have +2 bonus' but I think it's designed to prevent cumulative bonus', not natural +2 bonus'.
Just a thought, maybe they will clarify it later.
"hit roll can never be modified by more than +1 or -1.
The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.
Vertical as well? Aka kff next to stompa covers or not. Upper areas not covered by 9"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.
Thoughts?
Unless they are good enough to kill you in melee yeah works
The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.
Vertical as well? Aka kff next to stompa covers or not. Upper areas not covered by 9"
Yes, this has already been the case in 8th since the last big FAQ. A KFF big mek could also not cover a battlewagon with deff rolla most of the time because the corners would reach out.
Because +hit modifeirs are capped, as far as we know this means it now hits on a 4+.
It sucks balls. But I doubt it's intentional. I'm gonna write em in with a FAQ for this and the shokk jump, as well as some general Saga of the Beast questions if they ever bother to write one.
+1 or -1 to hit being capped is clearly the answer to cumulative bonuses that in 8th could stack and could be too powerful. Units/wargear like the Rolla or the main gun of the Dragsta will likely get fixed somehow, they aren't the result of cheesy combos that needed to be addressed, and without a fix both SJD and BB/BW would be dead. Only way to fix it is to modify BS/WS of the models though.
SJD with a BS4+ and +1 to hit with the main gun, -1 with the other gun.
RedNoak wrote: well or you could make the rule say: add X to BS/WS instead of + X to hit
but since this is only a ork issue i dont think that it will get fixed... same as the lack of a FAQ for PA
It's not an ork only issue, data tethers for admech give a +2 to hit, that's why I think that it maybe clarified to mean that bonus' are non-stackable rather than max out at +/-1
ATM SSAG
2 Weirdboy
1 Warboss on bike with relic Klaw and Biggest Boss
---
6x10 gretchin
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3x3 MANz MadDok
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3 Deffkopta
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Morkanaut with sparkly bitz
6 smashaguns
Gunwagon with Da boomer
---
1 Burna bomber
Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.
Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.
Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.
I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.
I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.
Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.
Emicrania wrote: Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.
Games always end after turn 5 now.
In general, that list feels like you are using hat brigade for just as single HQ slot. I'd drop the SSAG or a weird boy, 3 units of gretchin and the koptas and fit in another bommer or some buggies. Something that actually does something.
Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.
Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.
I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.
I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.
Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.
Yeah I have similar thoughts but don't agree 100% on the Evil Sunz part. I think we'll see lists structured like so:
1. Mono Clan Brigade/Battalion
2. Double Battalion, either mono clan or with an about even split between two clans.
3. Battalion + Other, where we'll have either monoclan or one primary clan and a support clan.
4. Battalion + 2 patrols, where we'll have the 2 patrols specifically to grab unique abilities from two supporting clans.
I don't expect many 3 detachment lists because the CP cost will compete too much with all our pregame upgrades that we depend on.
Deathskulls is the best monoclan faction imo (also my favourite clan by coincidence), they just uplift all your units. Even units like killa kans implicitly benefit from the relic and psychic spell. They also are the easiest to build a brigade with as they benefit MSU more. So I agree that we'll be seeing Deathskulls as the default clan for brigades and battalions.
I think Evil Sunz still has merit and wouldn't be surprised if it was a primary clan in a lot of lists, we might not see a brigade of Evil Sunz but I could see a battalion of evil suns + battalion of Deathskulls. Evil Sunz kultur provides a buff that is desirable on most ork units, and the ork units that will prefer something else can sit in detachment number two.
Freebooters on paper sounds better off with the new detachments but the missions look a lot less kill focused and terrain provides a lot more defense now, so it might be harder to trigger the kultur then before. Furthermore, Badrukk and Flashgitz can just go hang out with some Deathskulls and not be fussed about it.
I think Bad Moons is actually the clan that gets worse off, we were often taking it for the sake of Lootas and Tankbustas. Running a detachment for the sake of 1 or 2 units is actually a huge resource cost now, maybe if people want Lootas they'll commit to a Patrol and leave it at that. Tankbustas actually function fine outside of Badmoons, they're just insanely good when they shoot twice, so I think we'll see people taking them as Deathskulls/Evil Sunz.
Goffs might be more relevant with Ghaz and mechanised lists. I think Blood Axes might have a harder time due to the smaller board size, they probably will get a faq to change them to getting the benefit of "light cover".
No one played snakebites and I don't see why they would still.
I think the Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads detachments will see play but only as a spearhead or vanguard detachment in addition to a Deathskulls/Evil Sunz battalion.
At the moment I would mostly consider going monoclan. Lack of CPs could really starve the army.
Freeboota, Evil sunz and Deathskullz are all legit options. I'll try to work a full Tin 'Eadz list with Dreads, Naut, Kanz, Meganobz, some cheap fillers like Meks, Grots or Koptas and shooting units for ranged support: Mek gunz, Scrapjets, Da Boomer, Flyers, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz should be ok regardless of the klan.
I'd take a second detachment, the cheapest one in terms of CPs, only for shooting twice with a Bad Moons unit.
3 detachment lists simply make no sense, even in 8th they're were basically only for granting more CPs, not for playing with three klans.
Brigades could be hard to fill if points are going to increase by 150-200 considering an 8th 2000 points list. Some units would also be pure tax.
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.
Most of my favorite units are HS, and I'd really struggle to be limited to just 3 slots. In fact I'd definitely consider playing with a single spearhead, especially if the detachment is Tin 'Eadz.
Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.
Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.
I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.
I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.
Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.
Yeah I have similar thoughts but don't agree 100% on the Evil Sunz part. I think we'll see lists structured like so: 1. Mono Clan Brigade/Battalion 2. Double Battalion, either mono clan or with an about even split between two clans. 3. Battalion + Other, where we'll have either monoclan or one primary clan and a support clan. 4. Battalion + 2 patrols, where we'll have the 2 patrols specifically to grab unique abilities from two supporting clans. I don't expect many 3 detachment lists because the CP cost will compete too much with all our pregame upgrades that we depend on.
Deathskulls is the best monoclan faction imo (also my favourite clan by coincidence), they just uplift all your units. Even units like killa kans implicitly benefit from the relic and psychic spell. They also are the easiest to build a brigade with as they benefit MSU more. So I agree that we'll be seeing Deathskulls as the default clan for brigades and battalions. I think Evil Sunz still has merit and wouldn't be surprised if it was a primary clan in a lot of lists, we might not see a brigade of Evil Sunz but I could see a battalion of evil suns + battalion of Deathskulls. Evil Sunz kultur provides a buff that is desirable on most ork units, and the ork units that will prefer something else can sit in detachment number two. Freebooters on paper sounds better off with the new detachments but the missions look a lot less kill focused and terrain provides a lot more defense now, so it might be harder to trigger the kultur then before. Furthermore, Badrukk and Flashgitz can just go hang out with some Deathskulls and not be fussed about it. I think Bad Moons is actually the clan that gets worse off, we were often taking it for the sake of Lootas and Tankbustas. Running a detachment for the sake of 1 or 2 units is actually a huge resource cost now, maybe if people want Lootas they'll commit to a Patrol and leave it at that. Tankbustas actually function fine outside of Badmoons, they're just insanely good when they shoot twice, so I think we'll see people taking them as Deathskulls/Evil Sunz. Goffs might be more relevant with Ghaz and mechanised lists. I think Blood Axes might have a harder time due to the smaller board size, they probably will get a faq to change them to getting the benefit of "light cover". No one played snakebites and I don't see why they would still. I think the Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads detachments will see play but only as a spearhead or vanguard detachment in addition to a Deathskulls/Evil Sunz battalion.
I agree mostly, but I highly doubt we will be seeing double battalions anywhere. You are just adding troop tax and additional CP for minimal to no gain, since there isn't actually a reason to run more troops than necessary anymore.
The way I see it, if you want boyz you will be running an evil suns battalion + deathskulls patrol. If you don't it will be either a deathskulls or freeboota battalion with the option for a patrol of evil suns or bad moons to add MANz or lootas/tank bustas. Something I can also see people trying to gamble a bloodaxe patrol with their warlord trait to gain some CP and create additional HQ slots for weird boyz or KFF meks who don't care about their culture.
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.
Most of my favorite units are HS, and I'd really struggle to be limited to just 3 slots. In fact I'd definitely consider playing with a single spearhead, especially if the detachment is Tin 'Eadz.
A single spearhead costs you 3 CP, a battalion and a patrol (2 additional slots of each type) is just 2 CP. I'm facing the same problem with my buggies, as SJD+KBB+Scrapjet+Warbikers is just too much. I guess the competitive option would be deciding between SJD and scapjets, but I don't wanna.
A single spearhead costs you 3 CP, a battalion and a patrol (2 additional slots of each type) is just 2 CP. I'm facing the same problem with my buggies, as SJD+KBB+Scrapjet+Warbikers is just too much. I guess the competitive option would be deciding between SJD and scapjets, but I don't wanna.
I think those specialist detachments are dead.
True, but battallion + patrol only allows 5 HS, I really want 6 and I'm willing to lose 1CP to do that. In fact I even wish I could field the 7-8 HS that were allowed by a triple battallion in 8th. The battallion + patrol combo also forces me to field 4 troops I may not want, but on the other hand I could field the 3rd and even 4th and 5th HQs which could be handy.
However when points costs are released I may change my mind and lean towards different types of lists, right now it's just speculations.
Jidmah wrote: What do your lists look like if you need that many HS slots?
It's basically the Tin Eadz army that I've played after lockdown, revised into a single Spearhead instead of 3x battallions. Bonebreaka (with meganobz), Naut, 3 Dreads, 4-6 Kanz, 3-6 Mek Gunz and Da Boomer are my HS. That's 6 slots. But splitting the Mek Gunz and/or adding Flash Gitz it's 7-8.
The way I see it, if you want boyz you will be running an evil suns battalion + deathskulls patrol. If you don't it will be either a deathskulls or freeboota battalion with the option for a patrol of evil suns or bad moons to add MANz or lootas/tank bustas.
Something I can also see people trying to gamble a bloodaxe patrol with their warlord trait to gain some CP and create additional HQ slots for weird boyz or KFF meks who don't care about their culture.
Wouldn't you wanna take Deathskull Mega Nobs for Obsec? It seems a lot of people are saying: Durable units hold objectives. Even better with Obsec. Tin 'eads too for the CC buff.
Re Evil Suns: I dunno. The issue I see is that ES is going to have to prove they are worth taking beyond just Da Jumping boys, which was largely their purpose in 8th.
From what I am gleaning from play testers, it seems like running up and controlling the mid board is the most important thing and these deep strike chargers are nerfed (no fishing for long charges; coherency rules issues; Less board, so easier to screen out). Basically any of the clans can hit the middle of the board by turn 2. ES was really only there for Deep strike charge for Da Boys. I'd rather take Deathskull or Goff boys if I am just hitting mid board by turn 2 anyway.
So, I guess as a challenge to the ES boys --- prove your clan is worth the CP
Evil Sunz monoclan is perfectly viable. Speed is still the most important stat in the game, and Visions in the Smoke combined with some of the bigger shooty vehicles is quite effective. A Morkanaught alone, will make a nice Castle setup, with a Wierdboy and Sparkly Bitz increasing it's accuracy
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, as with all things, this will all largely depend on the new points values.
mikethefish wrote: Evil Sunz monoclan is perfectly viable. Speed is still the most important stat in the game, and Visions in the Smoke combined with some of the bigger shooty vehicles is quite effective. A Morkanaught alone, will make a nice Castle setup, with a Wierdboy and Sparkly Bitz increasing it's accuracy
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, as with all things, this will all largely depend on the new points values.
I agree. I think evil suns lists will be best when focusing on vehicle lists leveraging visions.
I think it needs to be proven that’s a serious contender though as that’s a completely different archetype to currently successful ES lists, which is basically just boys.
i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.
I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.
I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)
I reckon the way that list is played is that you take a bunch of WC6 and if you want a WC9 cast target. Since you roll then target, you can always buff your Stompa/Mork/Gork if you hit the 9+, and Da Booma / Killa Kans / Deff Koptas if you hit 6+.
The weirdboy relic also gives +1 cast too *in theory*. Needs confirmation if it affects <CLAN> powers, but I would wager it probably does. If so, you have an optional 5+ and 8+ respectively, even without nearby Ork units.
tulun wrote: Wouldn't you wanna take Deathskull Mega Nobs for Obsec? It seems a lot of people are saying: Durable units hold objectives. Even better with Obsec. Tin 'eads too for the CC buff.
Not really, the whole point of MANz is that they murder anything which was on the objective before you got there. Dead stuff can't contest. Afterwards, you can spread them out to prevent most things from getting within 3" of the objective unless they charge the MANz - which brings us back to "dead stuff can't contest objectives".
Re Evil Suns: I dunno. The issue I see is that ES is going to have to prove they are worth taking beyond just Da Jumping boys, which was largely their purpose in 8th.
You can have two units of boyz in tactical reserves for 3 CP with 7 PL left for something like a KFF mek and a banner nob. IF boyz remain viable, so will ES.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma. Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.
From a gut feeling, the re-rolls for wound and damage do much more for the morkanaut than re-rolling all hits and if you really want to ruin someone's parking lot you can drop wreckers on the naut for wound re-rolls vs vehicles. My ad mech friend's knight hated that simple trick
I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee (i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)
Gunwagons can't have deff rollas, best you can do is a wreckin' ball.
Between the point drops on lascannons and the point rises on heavy bolters, I'm very curious what point costs rokkits and big shootas will be having this edition
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: The weirdboy relic also gives +1 cast too *in theory*. Needs confirmation if it affects <CLAN> powers, but I would wager it probably does. If so, you have an optional 5+ and 8+ respectively, even without nearby Ork units.
It doesn't affect them because clan powers are not part of the Power of the Waaagh! Discipline
wait really? i never looked because generally i didnt want it on there. Especially with Da Booma it has the range to not immediately get charged if it was able to hit a target worth shooting at.
Thats lame. Oh well.
You can have two units of boyz in tactical reserves for 3 CP with 7 PL left for something like a KFF mek and a banner nob. IF boyz remain viable, so will ES.
From what I've heard is that the outflank rule isn't as good as we might think -- it's too easy to screen out with the smaller board. It's probably more useful for shooting units.
Da Jump -> charge + 1 in the porta might still be fine. But if you're starting them on the board anyway and heading to the centre, I don't necessarily think you need ES boys to move like 12" to the middle.
doesn't affect them because clan powers are not part of the Power of the Waaagh! Discipline
Yeah I'm aware. I think it's fair game for a FAQ, though.
Jidmah wrote: Doubtful - it works the same for other armies and they haven't received a FAQ either.
is there an example where the psyker takes a random psychic power? I imagine if they are in a new discipline, that makes sense, but that isn't happening here.
The relic seems worded to not be intended for Smite.
Vineheart01 wrote:
Dont know why you'd ever burn a relic on that anyway.
I'd rather take a Killchoppa as a 2nd relic than gitbones and i am not paying for a third relic.
I think it would be great in this particular list. ASSUMING it buffs <CLAN> powers...
1) It's an OPTIONAL +1 to cast. Meaning it doesn't contribute to your weirdboy blowing his brains out.
2) As you are probably not taking any boys (or many) in this style of list, having the static +1 is already a big boon for Visions. 5+ and 8+ is 83% and 42% respectively, up from 72% and 28%. You basically double the shooting output of the unit that receives the buff, so I'd lean into consistency. Scraping together 9 ORK units nearby (as it counts for 1) for the +2 is also not as big an ask.
The major issue is keeping the weirdboy alive, of course, but that's nothing new.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather cast visions on Da Booma.
Far more shots getting rerolls and its vastly easier to cast, remember it costs a LOT to cast on a naut (what was it 9?) because that wound threshold is of course 18. I can understand not making it easy to put on a Stompa but making it harder for a naut aint right.
I was thinking about having a squad of boyz encircle them too to help block fastpaced assaults and grant +3 to the weirdboy. But assuming 8ppm, 240pts not really doing anything. Think i'd rather give Da Booma Wagon a deffrolla so both gun platforms are still threatening in melee
(i highly, highly doubt the rolla will be hitting on 4s unless it becomes practically free. GW probably wont change it right away because they only pay attention to marines but it'll get fixed eventually)
They do plenty if the Boyz surrounding the Morkakaught are equipped with Shootas. The Shootas hide the Wierdboy, who upgrades the Morkanaught with Visions. The Morkanaught uses the KFF to protect the Boyz, who in turn give the Wierdboy a buff to casting. It's a symbiotic relationship that I happen to like a lot.
But yeah, put Visions on a Gunwagon - that's a pretty boss combo as well!
so am i reading the terrain and line of sight correct that "true line of sight" is basically gone now?
As in, if you get inside a big ruin but its physically a complete wall so you cant see out or in, under the new rules the wall "doesnt exist" and now both can shoot freely. Also meaning the 18+ wound models literally cannot hide, ever.
For simplicity it makes sense...kinda..but thats really bizarre...
Vineheart01 wrote: so am i reading the terrain and line of sight correct that "true line of sight" is basically gone now? As in, if you get inside a big ruin but its physically a complete wall so you cant see out or in, under the new rules the wall "doesnt exist" and now both can shoot freely. Also meaning the 18+ wound models literally cannot hide, ever. For simplicity it makes sense...kinda..but thats really bizarre...
you still need to see your target.
"can be seen and targeted normally"
t, at least one model in that unit must [...] be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, get a look from behind the firing model to see if any part of the target is visible
Jidmah wrote: Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.
Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?
Marine points got leaked. Some ideas on sisters(the not so competive list was about 1700pts 8th ed. Exorcist tank same, for weird reason d3 damage bolter went from 1 to 5). There might be some other leaks in number of youtube br's as some have got green light on using 9th points.
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.
I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.
Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters
Starting cliffnotes as I watch:
Positives:
Board control - most of the game is about footprint, hold half the board for at least half the game, usually win.
Boyz are good at this because they can stack KFF and Painboyz to survive, since you earn points during your command phase, you need to survive.
CPs - he would always take 3 batts - he gets the same number of CPs with more flexibility
Morale got more lenient
"Screens are twice as powerful in this edition" for two reasons - deep strike, and you can't risk double charging because if you can't reach one unit, you fail. Buff to armies with cheap screens.
Smaller board size - hurts da jump, easier to stay in bubble range. Allows you to stay in striking distance but hold objectives.
"The boyz are not the killiest things on the board any more" with the "Rise of Space Marines."
5 turns helps Orks.
"Kills don't matter."
Freebootas assisted by MSU spam
Negatives:
wrapping
Tagging is less effective with boyz, Grots are a little better
Line of sight - the moment you move into a piece of terrain, you can be shot
Blast weapons - terrified of blasts - are going to be unbelievable against the orks - tag them
Limited HQs - harder to get - Orks will be behind on CP due to cost to get HQ slots
You're going to want to be much more mono-faction
There is so much more fight first - many times you will want to get charged
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.
I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.
Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters
Yup I saw that video and it was interesting.
I've only just started and ork army and the way in leaning is towards 3 units of Boyz and some grots backed up by Mek with KFF and pain boy. I will then be running multiple SJD with a wartrike just charging forward firing at stuff using deffskulls re rolls. Around that I'm not sure what else I'll use but that will be my core.
Wow those points changes are all over the place aren't they? As high as 60% increase while some stuff got even 20% cheaper and a few things just stayed the same. Well that makes me even more curious about what orks are going to get.
Based on what we know right now and granted we don't have the full picture (points will be the gamechanger)
These are my concerns, at the moment from a competitive stand point we rely on;
1. Large units of Ork boyz putting out hundreds of low AP attacks to force through wounds
2. The relic souped up shokka
3. Smasha gunz
These units along with Weirdboy, KFF and Warboss support do most of our heavy lifting as a faction. They control the board. threaten big scary charges and do most of our ranged output.
These are our best units for me, In the tier below this this things like Lootas, Meganobz, Burna Bomba's are reasonable but probably not top tier. At least in my experience.
With what we know about 9th its likely that the humble Ork boy will;
* Cost one or two points more (speculation)
* Suffer against blasts in large units
* Suffer in combat with the 1/2 of engaged models rule, meaning we won't be reliably able to get much more than 10-15 guys into engagement range - particularly if we are relying on Jump + 9" charge.And bearing in mind we have to ensure we aren't over stretching our units lest we get hit by the coherency penalties.
With the new Look out sir rule, unless you baby sit your Souped Up Shokka big mek with multiple units, the enemy is going to reach out and remove him routinely as he represents one of our strongest threats particularly against vehicles and monsters.
So where do we go from here as a faction?
I'm not saying that the sky is falling or anything but the guts of our army appear to have been torn out.
I could see the potential in Trukk boyz IF Trukks came down to around 40-50 points, which is unlikely to happen.
Meganobz are going to deliver one killer charge (if they can hit a worthwhile unit to make their points back) but surely they will go up in points, don't have an invuln save and are going to be countered hard.
Our planes are a reasonable distraction and annoyance factor but aren't going to win a game or contest objectives.
Maybe if Morkanauts and Gorkanauts come down 100 pts each.... scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.
I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.
Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters
Starting cliffnotes as I watch:
Spoiler:
Positives:
Board control - most of the game is about footprint, hold half the board for at least half the game, usually win.
Boyz are good at this because they can stack KFF and Painboyz to survive, since you earn points during your command phase, you need to survive.
CPs - he would always take 3 batts - he gets the same number of CPs with more flexibility
Morale got more lenient
"Screens are twice as powerful in this edition" for two reasons - deep strike, and you can't risk double charging because if you can't reach one unit, you fail. Buff to armies with cheap screens.
Smaller board size - hurts da jump, easier to stay in bubble range. Allows you to stay in striking distance but hold objectives.
"The boyz are not the killiest things on the board any more" with the "Rise of Space Marines."
5 turns helps Orks.
"Kills don't matter."
Freebootas assisted by MSU spam
Negatives:
wrapping
Tagging is less effective with boyz, Grots are a little better
Line of sight - the moment you move into a piece of terrain, you can be shot
Blast weapons - terrified of blasts - are going to be unbelievable against the orks - tag them
Limited HQs - harder to get - Orks will be behind on CP due to cost to get HQ slots
You're going to want to be much more mono-faction
There is so much more fight first - many times you will want to get charged
watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.
I dont know... 30 boyz were easy to delete in 8th, now with blast theay are even easier to kill than before. I do not think boyz have any future in Ork lists (maybe one jumped unit, but even then with the new CC rules its gonna be hard to do any real damage with them)
It seems like the new missions are VERY focused on board control, and not killing.
Orks are very, very good at board control, and we frankly can't hurt armies like SM worth a damn, so play the mission and you'll win plenty of games.
There are lots of objectives that focus on killing though. And board control has become much more difficult then before. Every Army has their respective CC units, and most of them will eat boyz for dinner
Jidmah wrote: Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.
Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?
Marine points got leaked. Some ideas on sisters(the not so competive list was about 1700pts 8th ed. Exorcist tank same, for weird reason d3 damage bolter went from 1 to 5). There might be some other leaks in number of youtube br's as some have got green light on using 9th points.
It seems like the new missions are VERY focused on board control, and not killing.
Orks are very, very good at board control, and we frankly can't hurt armies like SM worth a damn, so play the mission and you'll win plenty of games.
In my experience the buggy list is totally awesome at controlling the board. I've had over 20 games with it so far (7 of those with SotB) and outside of an entire ynnari harlequin list charging me head first T1 (and getting murdered in the process), at least the entire no-mans land belonged to me for the first three turns and usually I manage to wrestle large parts of their deployment zone from them as well. With smaller boards and some optimization to run only two types of buggies (my choice would be KBB and SJD unless they don't fix the shokk rifle), I can see them being extremely difficult to handle. Burna bommers get even better in 9th, as they force your opponent to castle up, effectively giving up board control, while the second bommer can fly off T1, staying in reserves until there is a juicy target to 'eadbut. The regenerating CP also make sure that you always have the CP to do so.
RedNoak wrote:watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.
I had the same impression. It was a mix of captain obvious and a space marine player telling you how orks work.
I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"
If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.
Just look the same guys when they try Ghaz . The Ork player is a total n00b and have 0 clues of what is he doing. I was gonna write that they might know the rules, but he claim the painboy is a HQ, so...
Also 2 KFF to protect 2 units of boyz???? Are you out of your fething mind!?
Emicrania wrote: Just look the same guys when they try Ghaz . The Ork player is a total n00b and have 0 clues of what is he doing. I was gonna write that they might know the rules, but he claim the painboy is a HQ, so...
Also 2 KFF to protect 2 units of boyz???? Are you out of your fething mind!?
Two KFF is bonkers. Especially with how limited our HQ slots are now. One of the benefits of Deathskulls even is that you can probably cheat a bit and go with LESS KFF coverage, as you have a built in 6++.
On a side note, though -- Ghaz makes sense to me now. As long as he's not a billion points, you walk him up and hit an objective turn 2 (Or Tellyporta him in), then flip your opponent off, as he might be the best objective camper in the game.
Burna bommers get even better in 9th, as they force your opponent to castle up, effectively giving up board control, while the second bommer can fly off T1, staying in reserves until there is a juicy target to 'eadbut. The regenerating CP also make sure that you always have the CP to do so.
RedNoak wrote:watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.
I had the same impression. It was a mix of captain obvious and a space marine player telling you how orks work.
If the plane is 1" from your edge and theyre there as well you can set the plane up closer than 9.
Problem is nobody is going to be stupid enough to be that close to your backfield when you have reserves, plus orks typically wont be that far backfield anyway.
Yeah that could be good if you could hide him in the middle of the table behind an objective (which sounds reasonable with the new terrain rules) he could countercharge anything that comes too close.
Also Nobz and manz look jucier this edition, the Buggys (especially the sjd with its fire and fade) seem to be an easy choice, also the koptaz are cheap enough to be a good filler. 60 gretchin are cheap and always useful... Tankbustaz could also work well, since they don't need cp to be effective
Seems to me that brigades will be the way to go for orks... Maybe a supreme detachment if that gets the keyword
But of course this all depends on how hard the Pointhammer will drop on us
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Vineheart01 wrote: If the plane is 1" from your edge and theyre there as well you can set the plane up closer than 9.
Problem is nobody is going to be stupid enough to be that close to your backfield when you have reserves, plus orks typically wont be that far backfield anyway.
Damn... You are right... God this is stupid. This means flyers can only re-enter the battlefield from your own edge... Since flyers are usually bigger than 6" and therefore cannot be set up wholly within 6
We really won't know how Boyz, Nobs, or MANz compare until we see the points.
After seeing the price hikes on standard Tac Marines (?????) and Intercessors, I don't really know what everything is going to look like until we see points.
Meganobs are still absurdly slow and while their durability is decent, their damage output is still really nothing to write home about...and They are still over $20 a model.
We're still going to have to pay the troop tax, so the question comes down to whether you are going to be running 30 tax grots, or 3 units of Boyz in various configurations unless you want to lose Command Points taking a different detachment.
As Evil Sunz, you make up some of the speed loss and can deep strike them effectively, with Death Skulls they gain obsec but are significantly less effective from deep strike and really demand a transport.
With the catastrophic nerf to deffrollas, is this really viable? Given the state of Trukks, is this really viable unless they see a drastic point cost reduction? Does that seem likely considering hikes to Razorbacks, Rhinos, and Repulsors?
Nobs are rather flimsy with only a 4+ armor save, and they are now outshined by basic Assault Intercessors which are troops. I'm afraid taking them in full strength would now be unwise, and MSUs are going to be capped by the rule of 3, assuming that is still in place. We don't get the advantage of combat squad to take full advantage of MSU to avoid blasts.
They also are really not getting any appreciable buffs, so I don't see how they are looking juicier apart from being relative to Boyz squads taking some serious nerfs from the core rules changes.
Maybe a combination of MANz and Nobs as working combat troops in transports as Death Skulls. I still don't know what the hell to do with Boyz in such a list. Transports are anathema, and they are rather slow. With Death Skulls they don't get the +1 to charge from Deep Strike. So I guess grots?
I'm thinking of running 8 man Nobz with 2 ammo Gretchin for absorbing multi wound or high AP.
Evil Sunz is still the more flexible of the two when it comes to combat delivery.
Engagement changes I think favor Nob and MANz unit sizes.
It’s all about point costs
But technically blasts for boy blobs and da jumping 30+ boys isn’t a massive issue considering you can’t shoot blast weapons into combat...
Meaning get your boys locked into combat!!! If someone is playing IG with a bunch of basilisks or battle cannon tanks lock them in combat and you effectively neuter these issues.
However it still is a big issue to worry about and going second means da jumping 30 evilsun boys is a risk even if you are able to obscure them with terrain.
So I’m not calling boys gone yet but if they go up in points without any meaningful improvement they will be in bad shape.
At this point I’m just waiting to see the new points. I’m still not sold on mass buggies Outside of the SJD Which is just great.
And then all the HQ,Heavies and flyers you wanna field, because i still think those will do the heavy lifting in orks lists. CC is kinda dead anyway (at least as a main damage dealer, twas pretty usless in 8th before... so now...)
the nobs could be fitted in a trukk or warkopta, the Manz teleport behind terrain to camp an objective. grots to what grots do and fill the board, camp objectives and provide protection for other units.
the Heavy stuff shots things
The idea of putting MAnz and nobz in the same transport is intriguing thought, they also would fit in a trukk as min mobs
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gungo wrote: It’s all about point costs But technically blasts for boy blobs and da jumping 30+ boys isn’t a massive issue considering you can’t shoot blast weapons into combat...
Meaning get your boys locked into combat!!! If someone is playing IG with a bunch of basilisks or battle cannon tanks lock them in combat and you effectively neuter these issues.
However it still is a big issue to worry about and going second means da jumping 30 evilsun boys is a risk even if you are able to obscure them with terrain.
So I’m not calling boys gone yet but if they go up in points without any meaningful improvement they will be in bad shape.
At this point I’m just waiting to see the new points. I’m still not sold on mass buggies Outside of the SJD Which is just great.
well you tag the enemy unit, do gak damage because of the engagement range change and then the unit will just fall back, leaving you in the open to be blasted to death you cant even reliable multicharge anymore... and tripointing is also useless
EDIT: of course it will all come down to points... but if we can avoid the nerfhammer i think brigades are the way to go. We need those HQ's...
Headbutt coming from reserves doesn't work from what I understood, because if you do so the plane must arrive 9' away form enemies. Which sucks !!!!!
I hope I understood it wrong
True, I forgot about that. But you can still do a bombing run T1 and keep it save for a turn when your opponent hopefully lacks the means to destroy it.
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RedNoak wrote: Damn... You are right... God this is stupid. This means flyers can only re-enter the battlefield from your own edge... Since flyers are usually bigger than 6" and therefore cannot be set up wholly within 6
In 9th only the base counts, everything else may hang off the board.
Also good news for those planing onto a crusade - apparently you can buy pre-game upgrades with requisition points to upgrade a unit *permanently*. When a crusade has gone on long enough, you can have all sorts of skarboyz, 'ard boyz and kustom jobs on your Waaagh! plus a pile of CP.
When aircraft come out of strategic reserves (ie which is what happens after they've flown off the board) they can be placed anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from the enemy. (BRB 257)
So you don't need to adhere to the battlefield edge rule with aircraft
My bet is that Ghaz is gonna be supreme commander.
Burna bomber, IF they survive T1, can autoadvance out of the board, after bombing and position themselves for a T2 potential explosion, or t3 bombing and exploding .
Melee is not that but MSU is gonna be heavily pushed in this edition
Kanz, Grot Tanks, and Mega Grot Tanks probably will suck horribly unless you burn the cp for another detachment to utilize Grot Mobz. I'd be shocked if theyre cheap enough w/o Grot Mobz to be viable. And at that point, are they really worth the cp investment? Difficult to say both because no points known and also grots dont eat ANY cp on their own so in a sense they arent taking more cp than usual.
Emicrania wrote: My bet is that Ghaz is gonna be supreme commander.
Burna bomber, IF they survive T1, can autoadvance out of the board, after bombing and position themselves for a T2 potential explosion, or t3 bombing and exploding .
Melee is not that but MSU is gonna be heavily pushed in this edition
Thoughts on kan wall?
Evil Suns Kan Wall w/ Visions (re-roll all hits in CC too), or Tin 'eads is probably solid. But that's if you wanna take 2 detachments. I dunno if you'd wanna go mono either.
I'm also not sure why you'd care about Mega Nobs as ES at this point? Unless you really are gungho about deep strike and charge. It's really not hard to make it to the middle of the board, even slogging. Deathguard terminators (in that battle rep) were on the objective turn 2.
The biggest problem with kanz in 8e was the morale. Now, even by themselves they are not that horribly in danger, especially in @ group of 9. I'll do some mathammer asap but their staying power should be similar to MANz for fairly the same price. Just an idea.
The biggest question is which and how many detachment shall we take?
Emicrania wrote: The biggest problem with kanz in 8e was the morale. Now, even by themselves they are not that horribly in danger, especially in @ group of 9. I'll do some mathammer asap but their staying power should be similar to MANz for fairly the same price. Just an idea.
The biggest question is which and how many detachment shall we take?
KK only go up to 6. I'd probably just do a 5 man squad so blast / coherency is not an issue. I wanna try them out with a Wartrike w/ Breakin' heads, so he can keep them healthy and let them advance/charge.
If you wanna flavour in your list, you'll mix in a patrol with your bat. If you want max CP, Deathskulls or Freebootas.
i dont see their morale being any better, i actually see it as ever so slightly worse.
They had LD6, if they lost 1 then on a roll of a 6 a whole other kan ran. I rarely had people pump excessive shots into them to kill half or more of the squad in one go, more like toss a few into it instead of potentially overkilling something more threatening. Even in Grot Mobz squads they simply werent dangerous enough to justify the full anti-tank focus until they were about to charge or thats all thats left anyway. Now they still lose that 1 walker but can potentially lose another even if you only lost 1 to begin with. Its the singular instance where the new morale rules are bad, if you would only lose 1 in the old rules you might lose more in the new rules. There is thankfully the 1s always pass rule now but i dont see it being enough of an offset.
i still would never, ever run them w/o a Breaking 'Eadz guy around.
Kanz with Tin eadz bonus, a kustom job (+3''M or +1BS if they have rokkits and there isn't a morkanaut in the list) and an army with redundancy on armored stuff may work.
They're a supporting unit though, as always, so they need some synergies with other stuff to perform. If they are cheap enough they could even work as backfield babysitters, just like dreads, or if they got the movement upgrade they can try to claim and hold an objective.
Grot Mobz may work only with lots of mek gunz, and only as a second detachment. I still have hope that a full Tin Eadz army could be viable.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont see their morale being any better, i actually see it as ever so slightly worse.
They had LD6, if they lost 1 then on a roll of a 6 a whole other kan ran. I rarely had people pump excessive shots into them to kill half or more of the squad in one go, more like toss a few into it instead of potentially overkilling something more threatening. Even in Grot Mobz squads they simply werent dangerous enough to justify the full anti-tank focus until they were about to charge or thats all thats left anyway.
Now they still lose that 1 walker but can potentially lose another even if you only lost 1 to begin with. Its the singular instance where the new morale rules are bad, if you would only lose 1 in the old rules you might lose more in the new rules.
There is thankfully the 1s always pass rule now but i dont see it being enough of an offset.
i still would never, ever run them w/o a Breaking 'Eadz guy around.
If you lost one Kan a the time yes. Personally mine where either brought to half strength, either ignored. Cheap rokkit could be huge
I'm of the opinion that we were already CP starved in 8th and really not keen on running multiple detachments now in 9th. So I would personally go mono-freeboota if I wanted to run a bunch of kanz and/or mek gunz, as then they'd at least contribute to the rest of the army's kultur in a simple and doable manner.
9th will probably be even more MSU than 8th and doesn't punish players as harshly for losing units so at least theoretically getting that kultur to pop off should be easier than ever IMO.
The SJD has another job in a Freeboota list so you can still bring them there too. The aura is specifically"while in 24" of a unit that has killed an enemy unit this phase" which means if the SJD zaps something dead he can for 1 cp immediately tellyport wherever you want that aura to be and affect your whole army lol. Less likely to happen as Freeboota since he lacks rerolls, but still pretty likely.
Blackie wrote: Kanz with Tin eadz bonus, a kustom job (+3''M or +1BS if they have rokkits and there isn't a morkanaut in the list) and an army with redundancy on armored stuff may work.
They're a supporting unit though, as always, so they need some synergies with other stuff to perform. If they are cheap enough they could even work as backfield babysitters, just like dreads, or if they got the movement upgrade they can try to claim and hold an objective.
Grot Mobz may work only with lots of mek gunz, and only as a second detachment. I still have hope that a full Tin Eadz army could be viable.
They are honestly viable w/ Grot mobs too, you just wanna babysit them with a Waaaagh banner as well (which presents other problems). 5+ to hit sucks in CC. But they are technically strongest w/ banner as a Grot mob, getting 4+ to hit, re-roll ones, with a 6++ save as a backup if the KFF is out of range.
I think it boils down to points. If Big Shoota KK really cost the same as Mega Nobs though, you really do have a good case for them. They are bulky Mega Nobs basically, especially with Tin 'Eads.
I would bet there is gonna be a bonkers good list which just takes as many Mega Nobs and KK as you can muster, and floods the centre with these chonky boy wounds. They might get shot off the board turn 3/4, but by then, you've won.
Vineheart01 wrote: The SJD has another job in a Freeboota list so you can still bring them there too.
The aura is specifically"while in 24" of a unit that has killed an enemy unit this phase" which means if the SJD zaps something dead he can for 1 cp immediately tellyport wherever you want that aura to be and affect your whole army lol.
Less likely to happen as Freeboota since he lacks rerolls, but still pretty likely.
If they don’t change the SJD to a BS bonus, I don’t see it killing a unit (unless you bring many of them).
Do the new transport rules mean that, for example, Ork Tankbustas in a Trukk would not be able to use their 're-roll hit rolls against vehicles' ability?
Tank hunters and bomb squigs are an 'ability' as is dakka dakka ere we go and mob rule
I think they mean 'outside' abilities like auras and such... but yeah... strictly speaking they cant :/
I really need to get myself a BRB
Yeah, it makes sense for the outside abilities — I don't think they had open-topped transports in mind when they wrote this, so it could be solved by just changing the open-topped rule to specifically allow the embarked unit's abilities to affect it.
Also you can download the 9th core rules on their website:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/02/free-core-rules-new-models-sighted/
I think rules as written you cannot use the abilities on the units datasheet.
I think this will get resolved in a FAQ or a rule in the complete rule book (there is apparently a glossary at the end).
It's worth emailing these questions to the FAQ team: 40kfaq AT gwplc.com. There's a lot of questions we'll want answered (EG open topped, SJD, and Deffrolla) and the more they see it asked the more they'll address it.
Vineheart01 wrote: I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"
If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.
They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;
Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.
Oh for sure if youre going heavy (3+) full squads of boyz a painboy if you cant bring grotsnik is essential, at those numbers the fink WILL save enough boyz to be worth it.
Generally i find if its only 1-2 squads, he aint worth it. The ultimate problem is he doesnt do anything else, yeah its a PK but its a PK on a very squishy (why doesnt he have a 4+...) model that hits on 4s with 3 attacks so not exactly amazing.
I still find it amusing when that new painboy model appeared in 7th everyone was pissed we couldnt give him a PK, despite clearly being modelled with a special powerklaw syringe hybrid. They nerf PK to the ground with the whole multi-damage mechanic and give it to the painboy by force, now we dont want it lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh for sure if youre going heavy (3+) full squads of boyz a painboy if you cant bring grotsnik is essential, at those numbers the fink WILL save enough boyz to be worth it.
Generally i find if its only 1-2 squads, he aint worth it. The ultimate problem is he doesnt do anything else, yeah its a PK but its a PK on a very squishy (why doesnt he have a 4+...) model that hits on 4s with 3 attacks so not exactly amazing.
I still find it amusing when that new painboy model appeared in 7th everyone was pissed we couldnt give him a PK, despite clearly being modelled with a special powerklaw syringe hybrid. They nerf PK to the ground with the whole multi-damage mechanic and give it to the painboy by force, now we dont want it lol.
I think the up to date model is wielding a powerklaw. It's the old metal model with the squatting pose and the orderly that gives you the option to use a killsaw. I could be wrong though, that was always my assumption.
Vineheart01 wrote: I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"
If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.
They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;
Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.
I watched some of that as well since it contained both my armies. I don't have the patience to watch 3 hours of someone playing 40k though, so do you know if they used the KFF in melee?
Vineheart01 wrote: I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"
If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.
They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;
Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.
I watched some of that as well since it contained both my armies. I don't have the patience to watch 3 hours of someone playing 40k though, so do you know if they used the KFF in melee?
Yes, throughout. It made a significant difference.
It looks very bleak for orks for 95% of the game points wise but the ending is quite surprising. The new points scoring mechanic certainly seems to change things significantly. They imply that the way this game went is not unusual in their experience.
I see, thanks. With overwatch gone and KFF working in melee maybe battlewagon boyz might make sense if I can get the mek and grotznik in there somehow.
So what type of lists are people theorycrafting at the moment for going into ninth?
I'm personally leaning towards a dreadbash list, with grots and maybe a blob of boys bubbled around a KFF mek to hold objectives on the home plate.
To be honest though that's just to use my deff dreads as I love the models and I'm sick of painting boys haha.
This being said I can still actually see a use for boys spam in lists. One blob gets jumped turn one, one is bubbled around a KFF mek until it gets jumped, and blobs of stormboys in reserves. There aren't actually thaaat many blast weapons knocking about that will be doing that much more damage per shot that we haven't kind of broken even against with most of overwatch going.
I think Boyz staying in KFF range, no longer da jumping (unless the oppenent fails to screen juicy stuff), might be the way forward.
Primaris stuff means everyone needs to bring high AP multiwound stuff stand a chance, desn't it ? So boyz under KFF will be a nightmare to remove.
Smaller board tables mean evil sunz boyz with a big boss nearby hanve an effective assault threat range which is gonna be pretty scary.
Now for points on dem ladz, like Jid says... 8 PPM and there might not be much point in bringing dem boyz... 60 boyz + an unchanged KFF mek (unlikely) would be 539 points. Seems like a bit much. Take 60 points out of this total, and you have something nice
Afrodactyl wrote: So what type of lists are people theorycrafting at the moment for going into ninth?
I'm personally leaning towards a dreadbash list, with grots and maybe a blob of boys bubbled around a KFF mek to hold objectives on the home plate.
....
From what I've observed so far from several games both live and online is that board control is crucial and the smaller table size benefits the mid range. However, it's not enough to have firepower, staying power is more relevant to scoring.
Another interesting observation is that slower units are no longer as hampered by table sizes and really come into their own.
As the game gets played more I think we'll see some interesting developments. My gut says that our strong units will be nobs and meganobs backed by Boyz. This could be a good edition for us, we are well placed with a variety of tools in our own codex without having to soup.
I'm not as convinced about points being so much of a problem seeing as every faction will get a bump. It's all to do with proportionality. As long as our increases aren't more excessive than other codex's, we should be fine.
Its sounding to me like meganobz as well, not so much regular nobz as they kinda got hurt by the blast rules.
They simply suicide if you take them at full strength (10+2), and you cant take the 2nd ammo runt unless you have 10 nobz unfortunately, so 9+1 is the new "max" but only 1 squishy for a multi-damage attack sucks.
Thats for objective camping though, not for killing. Killing is gonna be buggies and walkers. KBB's especially feel extra special, given their anti-primaris gun that keeps shooting if theyre stuck in combat after they spiked ram charge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Its sounding to me like meganobz as well, not so much regular nobz as they kinda got hurt by the blast rules.
They simply suicide if you take them at full strength (10+2), and you cant take the 2nd ammo runt unless you have 10 nobz unfortunately, so 9+1 is the new "max" but only 1 squishy for a multi-damage attack sucks.
Thats for objective camping though, not for killing. Killing is gonna be buggies and walkers. KBB's especially feel extra special, given their anti-primaris gun that keeps shooting if theyre stuck in combat after they spiked ram charge.
The video I shared showed how important the counter charge is and I think boyz and Nobz cold be useful in this. A unit of 5 with big choppas can deal with most opponents very effectively plus I think blast will not hurt us as much as we fear.
The use of grots to shield as you move up the table was also interesting. Positioning them to force an opponent to charge or shoot them in such a way as to place your own effective counter charge better.
Meganobz definitely useful for camping midfield, but Id be inclined to bring a mix of nobz to back them up.
I do also agree that buggies may do a lot of good work for us, possibly even bikes too.
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Jidmah wrote: I see, thanks. With overwatch gone and KFF working in melee maybe battlewagon boyz might make sense if I can get the mek and grotznik in there somehow.
I think you maybe onto something with battle wagons. Providing protection and delivery as well as a degree of staying power, with kff and painboys you could have 3 (6 with the boyz inside) tough stubborn units with mobility.
Definitely worth an experiment.
Quick idea,
Deathskulls battalion
3x kff meks,
3x pain boys
3X Boss nob big choppa, 17x slugga boys
3x Ard case Battle wagons with deffrollas
Current points 1170
Add maybe 10% for new points, 1287 points leaving 700 points for burna bommas, smasha guns, grots etc
It's possible. Ymmv
Boyz mobs need to be at full strength to get that extra attack - that's why I was wondering how to get the KFF and the doc in range I wouldn't bother with a painboyz at all though, just grotznik because he is a monster in combat and hard to kill. Average don't properly reflect how unreliable those 6+++ saves are.
thats why earlier i said unless you got like 90+ boyz a regular painboy is worthless. 90 boyz he's bound to save enough to be justified, but never bank on that 6+++
Grotsnik is rude enough where even if i have a vehicle list i probably have him floating around the random squad of nobz i got. The 6+++ is a bonus, i want HIM lol
You might need to Dajump a 30man squad thats sitting in the back "safe" right as the wagon rolls up that has the mek, grotsnik, and a selection of nobz disembark. They'd be 9" away sadly but they'd be full strength. Even if you had a second wagon with 20 boyz they wont stay 20, i'd burn my overwatch on them purely because if i kill 1 model thats 20(+the dead model) less attacks i gotta deal with.
I'd rather run them in 2x10 squads at that point for an extra powerklaw, especially since leadership isnt as massive of a penalty now.
I think people overestimate the +1A on a unit of boyz. Even if a full mob of 30 manages to charge at full strenght how many boyz can actually fight in combat with the new rules? 15? And +15 S4 no AP attacks plus one extra attack from the nob don't make any significant difference. Boyz charges tipycally end up doing little damage against armored stuff or overkilling a weak unit.
Damage inflicted by a unit of 20 boyz isn't much superior than damage caused by a unit of 19.
I think it's perfectly fine to charge with units of 15-18 boyz. But I also like the idea of 2x10 squads in a wagon, in fact I've done it several times during index era and now morale is better for min squads and there's also the triple re-roll for both nobz' klaws which didn't exist in index times.
Jidmah wrote: Boyz mobs need to be at full strength to get that extra attack - that's why I was wondering how to get the KFF and the doc in range I wouldn't bother with a painboyz at all though, just grotznik because he is a monster in combat and hard to kill. Average don't properly reflect how unreliable those 6+++ saves are.
I'll be honest, if I was going for the extra attack, a mob of 20 Boyz in a battle wagon is never going to deliver that. Casualty attrition determines you need at least 30 for it to be a consideration.
I was theorising this idea around maximising the survivability of the units as a whole. A mob of 18 Boyz supported in this way will require investment by your opponent to delete, the new morale also helps here too. A mix of units around an objective, tough vehicles and multiple infantry also forces your opponent to allocate resources to deal with them. Some may excel at killing infantry but struggle with the BW.
I think the old ideas will take a while to drift away and the new ones to settle in as accepted. I was an early advocate of the SSAG, I remember the resistance to the concept based on the old ideas. People didn't recognise the strengths inherent in the idea until it started appearing regularly.
Painboys I'm either way on tbh. I think of them as a whole force multiplier rather than in a purely mathematical way. Their utility as 6+++ bubble is only part of the story, their ability to heal models can also add up over the course of a game. Obvious applications include character healing, but they can also help save the odd boy model if positioned well. For example, allocate a wound to a boss nob rather than take off a boy, and use the pain boy to heal him.
They're also a low priority target and likely to survive well towards the end of the game. Mine have usually regained most of their points value when I have played them.
But, it's still early to say what will work and what won't. If Boyz go up in value, but the painboy stays the same he actually becomes better without changing at all.
Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.
Jidmah wrote: Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.
I think the new engagement rules will make people think about trying to get 20+ units into combat, purely to compensate for the potential loss of attacks from those unable to engage.
Jidmah wrote: Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.
I have opposite feelings due to my experience. Against low armor single wound infantries 45 attack are tipycally enough to delete the squad, against tanks +15 attacks don't make any difference. 15 attacks are 10 hits, 5 wounds with no ap against T4 models so not even a single dead primaris on average, and against armored stuff it's even worse as the average says 3 wounds ap- against T5+ and less than 2 wounds against T8, so basically 0 maybe 1 lucky wound that goes through saves against multiwounds models. Against T3 there may be some difference but 45 attacks still cause 20 wounds before saves, enough to kill 10-15 man squads and 60 deal 27, not enough to kill 20+ man squads. Basically +1A is only worthy if boyz clash against blobs which is not what they usually should fight, and in 9th hordes could be even more uncommon. Or for multicharges, which will be even more uncommon in 9th.
Most of the times I got my boyz into a fight they either overkilled a screening unit/MSU squad or just tarpit an armored unit for a turn.
The single additional nob attack may be worthy of the size bonus, but it's not gamebreaking to lose it. I've always had the feeling in this edition that the real bonus of the full size of the squad is the ability of soaking more firepower before getting shot of the board.
Not many actually tried to get them all into combat. The 20+ bodies are there so if you lose a few (which will happen) you still swing at "full strength" so-to-speak. I can only recall one instance where i actually attacked with more than 15 bodies, and that only happened because my opponent got 5" from me, failed the charge, and i was able to completely surround him with 25 boyz in the wide open.
I'd also assume that ~10 boyz are more likely what is going to swing in future. From playing around with some models I have the feeling that anything beyond the second row is not going to be fighting - which is a huge difference down from up to four rows being able to fight.
Had my first game of 9th, did 1k points and just played the default mission supplied in the core rules PDF. We played on a 48"x48" table as the 44"x30" battlefield seemed a little small given the size of our lists. I've attached a picture of what the battlefield looked like. We conjectured that our lists would equate to roughly equate to ~1250 points in 9th so the extra space was warranted. My opponent played Druhkari, I don't actually know too much about what he had tbh. Here's my list:
I learned hard into the Kustom Jobs given how few stratagems I could properly utilise. I wanted to give SJD's a go but RAW they hit on 4's now so wasn't feeling enthused. I chose KBB's instead as it finally made sense to charge with them, given I could shoot in melee the subsequent turn. I ran Ghaz just to experiment with him as well, smaller table sizes + the abilitiy for him to shoot in melee was really enticing. Made him my warlord just to get him the extra attack.
Basically first turn I zoomed ghaz and my wartrike to objective 2, which was located inbewteen two ruins. The two HQ's where too far away to charge anything, and with the new obscure rule they were able to hide from my opponents anti tank (2 units of 2 talos I think). This ended up setting the pace for most of the game. I had my KBB's and MTSJ's deployed on my left hand side of the map and gave them a study push towards objective 3 on the map. My gretchin just sat on objective 1 for the whole game. I was able to kill one of the 4 talos in my first turn.
On my opponents turn he held objectives 4 and 3 with some troops and sent down some melee infantry and his talos down towards objective 2 from the left side. He had to to turn the corner around the ruins on the right side to get line of sight on my wartrike in order to shoot at it, almost killing it. He struggled to focus fire due to the ruins obscuring my vehicles for half his units. He charged my wartrike and I gambled on overwatch and was able to land two shots with gorks roar melta profile, using the clan trait and CP re-roll to guarantee the wound rolls to successfully kill another talos. He ended up failing that charge. He was able to get into melee on the other side of objective 2. He managed to get some melee infantry charged into one of my MTSJ's and destroyed it immediately after.
When it came around to my turn it I was in prime position to counter charge all his melee units with my HQ's and half my buggies. I gave one of my KBB's the burning highway and zoomed it off to go kill one of two troop units at objective 3 and then charge the one that remained alive.
His next turn left him with very few choices and he was forced to just try to try and fight his way out, but by then he had no meaningful AT and I had numbers on him. From that point onward I just played clean up and tabled him by the end of my 4th turn.
Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.
On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.
From what I've observed so far from several games both live and online is that board control is crucial and the smaller table size benefits the mid range. However, it's not enough to have firepower, staying power is more relevant to scoring.
Another interesting observation is that slower units are no longer as hampered by table sizes and really come into their own.
As the game gets played more I think we'll see some interesting developments. My gut says that our strong units will be nobs and meganobs backed by Boyz. This could be a good edition for us, we are well placed with a variety of tools in our own codex without having to soup.
I'm not as convinced about points being so much of a problem seeing as every faction will get a bump. It's all to do with proportionality. As long as our increases aren't more excessive than other codex's, we should be fine.
Yeah it seems accurate too.
I'm actually not sure if infantry actually need transport, outside of the transport being useful (say, A bonebreaker or Battlewagon w/ Deff Rolla, assuming it still hits on 2+).
I am 100% going to be going with DS Mega nobs or Tin 'Eads over Evil Suns, because I'm not convinced the movement is relevant, but Obsec and/or hitting on 3's is. I also think DS -> Charge is going to be harder to pull off, because it's a lot easier to screen out a smaller board, and even more so with MSU.
Outflank seems interesting but more so for shooting units, not CC.
Depending on the cost of trukks (even with a general price hike, they should at most stay the same cost IMO) there might be some play with using trukks to place on objectives and/or make charges more difficult for your opponent. Needing to hit everything in a multicharge means that just getting to add a few extra inches to get to something juicier than a trukk might not be a worthwhile gamble for your opponent.
Assuming grots are at most 4ppm then I'd say they're a pretty big winner just by the new morale alone. I can't count the amount of times where my opponent wiped 6-7 of them and while the rest were now out of LoS they also autofail morale. Just having 1-2 rando grots left to raise banners or hold objectives might be what wins you several games. A unit of less than 5 grots is super easy to hide and that bodes well for the objective game IMO.
Quackzo wrote: [...]
Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.
On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.
Great battle report, thank you for that
I have found the kustom job on the KBB to not do a whole lot in my games, what's your experience with this in specific?
Of all the people I talked that tried out 9th, they said the same thing : outflank is for shooting. Period.
It makes me think that glass cannon are gonna be a thing this edition. Big time.
The only way i could see it being for melee is if the opponent happens to be dumb enough to be near the edge.
And even then, back to the usual 9" charge problem
Outflanking melee just doesnt work, too heavily dependent on what the opponent is doing. Outflanking shooting is the opposite: where the enemy is not is where i show up.
Mob up means you could get a 40 man slogging or jumped squad with 2 nobs w/ killsawsz each getting an additional attack. Makes it a more efficient platform for warpath. Getting the nobs in could make up for the loss of density in the engagement.
I'm not convinced on transports for boyz and I don't see the upside compared to Meganobz, nobz, burnas or Tankbustas. Small, weak units with questionable offense and excessive cost. Don't forget, Rhinos, Razorbacks, AND Repulsors went up in cost. There is no guarantee they're going down even a single point, or even that they won't increase, with no appreciable increase in effectiveness, and the new rule making them unable to use abilities in transports is not confidence inspiring.
The problem with transports is they just don't DO anything. It's lost points for something that is still slow due to disembark rules and there are no efficient shooting weapons. The only efficient transport weapon was the damn Deffrolla, which is RAW in a bad spot. Sad story considering it was a pretty splendid Primaris mulcher.
At least ascann Razorbacks were pretty slick flexible, and justified taking oldmarines in cheap MSUs.
Gunwagon just isn't conducive to assault.
Does that leave warkoptas? They at least have interesting ranged options and are relatively quite mobile.
Quackzo wrote: [...]
Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.
On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.
Great battle report, thank you for that
I have found the kustom job on the KBB to not do a whole lot in my games, what's your experience with this in specific?
Thanks
It's not great but it's not bad either. I triggered 1-2 mortal's a turn with it, which I think is worth 1 CP. I probably got more wounds from one activation of Da Burnin' Highway. If I ranked all the Kustom Jobs this would probably be a low tier one and I'd cut it to make room for a better choice but in the context of this army there wasn't much else to use the CP with too.
I feel a little bit more positive about Gorks Roar. The buff to range is non-trivial for both modes and the increase in Burna attacks opens up some plays. There's been a few times where I've been able to zip my Wartrike to a unit supported by a character and use the Burna to wittle the unit down to open up the character for a charge.
Quackzo wrote: [...]
Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.
On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.
Great battle report, thank you for that
I have found the kustom job on the KBB to not do a whole lot in my games, what's your experience with this in specific?
Thanks
It's not great but it's not bad either. I triggered 1-2 mortal's a turn with it, which I think is worth 1 CP. I probably got more wounds from one activation of Da Burnin' Highway. If I ranked all the Kustom Jobs this would probably be a low tier one and I'd cut it to make room for a better choice but in the context of this army there wasn't much else to use the CP with too.
I feel a little bit more positive about Gorks Roar. The buff to range is non-trivial for both modes and the increase in Burna attacks opens up some plays. There's been a few times where I've been able to zip my Wartrike to a unit supported by a character and use the Burna to wittle the unit down to open up the character for a charge.
1-2 mortals a turn? Even with DS re-rolls, that's SUPER high. it should take you 3 KBB a round just to guarantee one.
1-2 mortals a turn? Even with DS re-rolls, that's SUPER high. it should take you 3 KBB a round just to guarantee one.
You're right that is high, that's just how the numbers worked out in that game. I did an estimate and got about 1 mortal wound a turn with 3 DSKBB's, slightly more and slightly less depending on the target but close to one for most cases.
Quackzo wrote: It's not great but it's not bad either. I triggered 1-2 mortal's a turn with it, which I think is worth 1 CP. I probably got more wounds from one activation of Da Burnin' Highway. If I ranked all the Kustom Jobs this would probably be a low tier one and I'd cut it to make room for a better choice but in the context of this army there wasn't much else to use the CP with too.
I feel a little bit more positive about Gorks Roar. The buff to range is non-trivial for both modes and the increase in Burna attacks opens up some plays. There's been a few times where I've been able to zip my Wartrike to a unit supported by a character and use the Burna to wittle the unit down to open up the character for a charge.
That pretty much matches my experience as well I've started to leave the KBB's job at home and use burnin' highway instead since my build always was pretty CP hungry due to my reliance on warbikers.
I've also run into the annoying issue of those mortal wounds simply disappearing when shooting 2W models, as the next rivet cannon shot would kill a model whether it took a mortal wound or not.
Gork's roar is mandatory if you bring a wartrike IMO, without it you'll struggle to get your points worth out of it. If you don't have the CP to upgrade it, don't bring a wartrike.
Quackzo wrote: It's not great but it's not bad either. I triggered 1-2 mortal's a turn with it, which I think is worth 1 CP. I probably got more wounds from one activation of Da Burnin' Highway. If I ranked all the Kustom Jobs this would probably be a low tier one and I'd cut it to make room for a better choice but in the context of this army there wasn't much else to use the CP with too.
I feel a little bit more positive about Gorks Roar. The buff to range is non-trivial for both modes and the increase in Burna attacks opens up some plays. There's been a few times where I've been able to zip my Wartrike to a unit supported by a character and use the Burna to wittle the unit down to open up the character for a charge.
That pretty much matches my experience as well I've started to leave the KBB's job at home and use burnin' highway instead since my build always was pretty CP hungry due to my reliance on warbikers.
I've also run into the annoying issue of those mortal wounds simply disappearing when shooting 2W models, as the next rivet cannon shot would kill a model whether it took a mortal wound or not.
Gork's roar is mandatory if you bring a wartrike IMO, without it you'll struggle to get your points worth out of it. If you don't have the CP to upgrade it, don't bring a wartrike.
In 9th MW allocation still happens before the "normal" wound allocation ?
The rules says it does 1 MW in addition to any other damage, so I always assumed that the rivet kills one primaris marine, then next one takes one mortal wound. That wounded marine is then killed by the next rivet, and the next one take a mortal wound, and so on. Those mortal wounds only matter when the enemy succeeds his saves or they are done by the last unsaved wound.
So you might actually get nothing out of it, despite rolling multiple sixes.
I'm contemplating a mix of horde and guns for 9th (though I never stick to a list for more than 2 games so it'll be for a couple games max).
Theory is to hold the horde in reserve, and use the guns to kill blast weapons, then bring in the horde. One horde could start on the board, and EGT back to full strength after the blasts have been dealt with.
Might as well save that CP for other stuff than the KBB bunch. KBBs are the cheapest buggies, might as well keep them as disposable as possible.
Also, like Quackzo implies, might as weel keep that CP for the the burna powaaa which likely has more impact
addnid wrote: Might as well save that CP for other stuff than the KBB bunch. KBBs are the cheapest buggies, might as well keep them as disposable as possible.
Also, like Quackzo implies, might as weel keep that CP for the the burna powaaa which likely has more impact
I don't think there is anyone in favor of buying the sizzly rivets upgrade here. On average, it does very few mortal wounds, it's unreliable and there is the issue with the gun itself invalidating those wounds when shooting at your preferred targets.
Burnin' highway, on the other hand, is vicious. Going from 4d3 S4 AP0 wounds to 12 S5 AP-1 is a huge step that will like cause more damage than sizzly rivets over the course of an entire game. And you can do it multiple times.
I was kind of sad to see that you can't trigger it during overwatch, but in 9th this might matter even less. Heck, with the stratagem still active from your turn, it might still be enough to deter charges without needing to spend a CP for overwatch.
That said, KBB are definitely not expendable throw-away units - initially I used them like that, but trying to keep them alive has proven to yield much better results than throwing them away as speed bumps or sacrificing them into a unit I don't want to shoot/charge. They are great value for their 80 points and you do good if you keep them around. The rivet guns can keep chipping wounds and models off durable units while the assorted other guns allow you to quickly clear infantry when you need it. In 9th they will be able to murder most units they are stuck in combat with, so there is no downside to always charging into things to limit their shooting and cause mortal wounds.
When you have a good idea of what they can do and what they can't do, you get a very reliable all-round unit. IMOKBB+ scrapjet and/or SJD is what every buggy list should be running.
KBB's to me are the "second wave" unit. Theyre terrible if theyre at the front line right away, too much stuff targets them right away because "flamer scary" even if its just regular flamers w/o burning cp, also the spiked ram potential.
The rivet gun has enough reach to have it sit in the back a turn or two, then surge forward. Usually by then i have dealt with some of the anti-vehicle and at a distance nobody fires at it even if its plinking off primaris here and there.
It still dies pretty quick once its in burna range but if i wait a turn it often lasts 2 turns at that range instead of insta-dead. They fill the role of mid-field objective grabber for me while the rest of my army just zergs the enemy.
It's actually the other way around for me - people tend to ignore them over the other threats I put on the table. I'd love if they kill them over my SJD or naut, they tend to go first these days.
I tend to face a lot of 24" or less range mean guns. People in my area seem to be really against 36-48" anti-tank guns, minus a couple units (which i easily pop). They like to rely on Hellblasters or meltas for antitank. So my mork usually only has 2-3 things that can even hurt it at a distance at most at the start. Its probably why i get such ridiculous mileage out of him lol.
So far i kinda feel like orks arent going to be a "gatekeeper army" in 9th anymore. Especially deathskullz we have so much power in securing objectives with tough cookies or hyper cheap units that denying us board control is going to be one hell of a chore w/o making yourself super weak to other armies.
As long as their price stays wonderfully cheap I think the KBB make wonderful cav distraction units with the potential to put out some decent damage. They may be my fave of the vehicles, with the scrapjet coming a close second for it's versatility.
Am I correct that the Deafskulls Reroll ability does not work anymore when embarked in a trukk? And same goes for the ammo runts Reroll or the Freebootaz +1?
Freebootas passengers get the +1 if their transport is within 24" of a unit that has killed something. The passengers do not project that aura themselves.
Jidmah wrote: Freebootas passengers get the +1 if their transport is within 24" of a unit that has killed something. The passengers do not project that aura themselves.
9th has not changed this.
So you say nothing has changed in 9th? Sure hope it's not as I am building a list with rokkit-nobs in trukks and an in the process of painting up 45 nobs.
They did fudge up the wording to make it sound like literally nothing affects embarked units (open topped still confers modifiers as it specifically says it does, as the main rule says has to be called out)
That better be an oversight, yet another thing to email them about. That makes transports even LESS useful, and they already were kinda pointless.
"Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. "
They really, REALLY need an extra comment there saying "...except by their own rules printed on their datasheet or wargear"
Its bad enough that an aura suddenly disappeared when embarked and psykers cant cast out of a vehicle, but denying any rule the unit has? that makes even less than no sense. I'm confident thats an oversight and will be in the first faq, dont lose any sleep over it.
9th Ed really hasn’t got me psyched at all. I was psyched for 5th, 6th, 7th (who would have known...), and especially for 8th... but this one... too much dodgy stuff on small tables... It will really be hard to keep an open mind. Hopefully it will all turn out ok. Unlike 8th it looks like this edition will require a bit of perseverance
Perhaps they're going to reword the open topped rule? Allow a units own abilities to affect them? Again this is one of those day 1 FAQ type issues. It does seem intended to stop people putting debuffs or buffs on a unit in a vehicle, but also stops a unit's own rules from working. But then again, what defines a unit's "Abilities" Could you call the automatically hitting text on a flamer an ability? What about the dying on a 1 from a plasma weapon? (yes that's going into rule lawyering territory but bloody hell we know someone will try and pull that during a game somewhere!)
addnid wrote: 9th Ed really hasn’t got me psyched at all. I was psyched for 5th, 6th, 7th (who would have known...), and especially for 8th... but this one... too much dodgy stuff on small tables... It will really be hard to keep an open mind. Hopefully it will all turn out ok. Unlike 8th it looks like this edition will require a bit of perseverance
I played a game of mock-9th with my DG and really feels like a completely different game with much more depth and a bit more complexity. Picking and scoring secondaries is a whole new layer added to the game, there is more thought required towards screening an killing characters and the mission I played actually forced some pretty interesting strategical decisions in regard to what objectives you prioritize. It also seems highly unlikely that you will be scoring 90 points in a game, if you get 15-20 VP for primary and secondary combined in a single turn that might already put yourself well ahead of your opponent,
So while units themselves changed little (outside of characters) in regards to what is good at what, I think we will be looking at a whole new game when it comes to what is happening on the tabletop itself. The smaller table combined with missions forcing units into the middle also did wonders to mitigate the primaris extra range the have compared to pretty much everything DG have - if plague marines can pull off charges easily, so will ork boyz.
One interesting thing is that slay the warlord no longer automatically gives a reward unless they picked the secondary - which (IMO) isn't a great one to begin with. So putting warlord traits on warbosses or wartrikes might become more viable.
It also seems highly unlikely that you will be scoring 90 points in a game, if you get 15-20 VP for primary and secondary combined in a single turn that might already put yourself well ahead of your opponent,
So those +10VP for being 100% battle ready may actually have a significant impact on the game.
One interesting thing is that slay the warlord no longer automatically gives a reward unless they picked the secondary - which (IMO) isn't a great one to begin with. So putting warlord traits on warbosses or wartrikes might become more viable.
This is good to hear as both those HQs basically ask to be played aggressively to do something other than providing their auras. Warboss always dies in my games as he cannot be a coward and stay out of the fight, he has to set the example for da horde A super buffed suicide warboss has been one my favorite units in 8th, he'll be even more in 9th.
It also seems highly unlikely that you will be scoring 90 points in a game, if you get 15-20 VP for primary and secondary combined in a single turn that might already put yourself well ahead of your opponent,
So those +10VP for being 100% battle ready may actually have a significant impact on the game.
Absolutely. In our game, if I had a fully painted army I would have won instead of lost (we both had unpainted models). What actually won my DA opponent the game was the first strike secondary - one that can never score a full 15 VP. No amount of banner raising could mitigate that 8VP head start he got from clearing out my pox walkers and gunning down two characters with helblasters. He commented that he would probably drop eliminators now for something that can clear out screens, as it's a much more effective way of killing characters. I feel like this secondary might be very interesting for mech orks as well as you get 5 VP for killing a unit turn one and another 3 if you kill more units than your opponent. One of my major takeaway from the game was that getting 8 VP from a single secondary is a lot. A gut feeling is that to win a game you need to get at about 10 VP per turn, primary and secondary combined.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thoughts on terrain: It does a lot less than expected, but a lot more than 8th edition did. Cover is handed out much more easily, but you also need to get out of cover more to win games. Probably a slight advantage for orks.
Units being out of sight due to obscuring terrain happened from time to time, but these rules cut both ways. If you deep strike a unit behind a ruin without touching it, it can't be shot - but it can't shoot anything either. Important to keep in mind when bringing in shooty things from reserves.
Ruins have become weird. They are all defensible, so when you charge infantry inside a ruins they get +1 in combat to hit you. When you are dealing with shock-assault chainsword primaris, this can add up to a lot of pain. On the other hand, upper floors are now death traps - if you move underneath a unit sitting in a ruin, the only way for them to fall back is by going up - if that's possible. I had a single DG character trap an entire unit of helblasters and a librarian in combat with no chance to get away from it, as the ruin was more than 3" so they couldn't consolidate downwards or complete a move in coherency without being in engagement range. This is something that MANz, buggies or biker characters can exploit, as their large bases can trap units on upper floors as well. Eventually, people will start screening to prevent things like this from happening.
Barricades are even more weird. They are great for getting cover, but moving across them is nigh impossible, as going around is usually faster. On top of that, you can "charge" a barricade to fight models 2" behind it, so you don't actually lose that distance when fighting units hinding behind it - and you the charging unit gets +1 to saves as well.
Jidmah wrote: Barricades are even more weird. They are great for getting cover, but moving across them is nigh impossible, as going around is usually faster. On top of that, you can "charge" a barricade to fight models 2" behind it, so you don't actually lose that distance when fighting units hinding behind it - and you the charging unit gets +1 to saves as well.
Right. While the rules sound weird, it feels very "right" when you do it on the battlefield. In our case, the "barricades" were the ones you get with speed freeks and the ADL.
Turns out the useless speed freeks board now works perfectly fine for partrol and incursion games
im guessing the piles of junk just follow the 3" from the terrain rule now?
That was the main issue with terrain in 8th, if it wasnt a defined "area" it literally did nothing but block LoS (and typically if it wasnt a defined area terrain it wasnt big enough to block LoS)
All they did was clutter the board and do absolutely nothing lol
First strike seems odd, because your opponent can easily deny you the VPs on it if their army is relatively mobile (or hell, even goes second, since they wanna be hiding anyway).
I would wager that one is a bit of a trap.
But the nice thing is, of course, you can always swap out secondaries depending what you're facing.
It's not that easy to hide when you don't have any of that "first floor blocks LoS" nonsense though.
Also, very importantly, you don't know whether you go first or second when deploying. The roll is one of the last things you do before starting the game. If they hide everything, the obscuring terrain rule is coming to bite them when they go first.
Jidmah wrote: It's not that easy to hide when you don't have any of that "first floor blocks LoS" nonsense though.
Also, very importantly, you don't know whether you go first or second when deploying. The roll is one of the last things you do before starting the game. If they hide everything, the obscuring terrain rule is coming to bite them when they go first.
To be honest, I imagine a lot of first turns are going to be very, very dull.
Because of the uncertainty of going first, and because gak can still wreck your day, you probably want to deploy defensibly to avoid getting alpha striked. I could see taking first turn largely to just insure you get your chaplain rolls / psychic buffs (whatever) up, even if you have nothing to see / shoot at.
I haven't had a chance to play 9th yet though (I'd rather wait for points and Day 1 FAQs anyway), but denying your opponent 8 VPs seems an easy victory.
You really do need first turn to get into position for grabbing objectives though. If you hide everything, your opponent can instead grab three objectives and score 15 points from that, potentially doing additional action like raising banners on them for even more points.
This doesn't work like ITC where you had to score all or most of your secondaries to win. It be very much be a choice between what scores you to pick up during your turn, unless you are completely curb-stomping your opponent you will never be anywhere near those 90 points. As I said before, you will probably be aiming for 40-50 points to win games.
The game itself works completely differently now, it's hard to explain or understand it if you haven't played it. Most wisdom about movement and deployment from 8th will flat out cost you the game now.
Yeah, I've only played a couple of games of "9th" (we played 1750 assuming that'll be roughly the new 2k) and there's a lot of thought that has to go into deployment IMO. You don't score primaries T1 so standing on objectives at the start of the game (when you don't know if you'll go first or not) might not be a must.
Maxing out on primaries is alpha & omega though and while it's possible to do in 3 turns you'll most likely need 4. I've said it before but I really think that grots (assuming they're 4ppm) will be great in 9th with that massive buff to their morale and really small footprint. Ork speed freek lists will give up super easy (relatively speaking) "bring it down" secondaries though, so consider that.
I think a lot of conventional wisdom from 8th will have to be re-evaluated in 9th, it's much more than a slight shift in how the game actually plays out (especially if you come from a non-ITC environment).
IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.
Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.
Emicrania wrote: IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.
Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.
Probably a noob question, but is there a date on when the day 1 FAQ is going to be dropped?
Emicrania wrote: IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.
Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.
You liking DS Mega Nobs?
And might this also mean a unit of Tankbustas might be a real nice inclusion?
Emicrania wrote: IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.
Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.
Probably a noob question, but is there a date on when the day 1 FAQ is going to be dropped?
If it's a day one FAQ, it's likely that it will drop on the day of the release. After all, you probably can't play the game without it.
The other options is two weeks after release, like most FAQs are supposed to drop.
Emicrania wrote: IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.
Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.
You liking DS Mega Nobs?
And might this also mean a unit of Tankbustas might be a real nice inclusion?
I feel like i might be possible to walk a couple of medium size MANz, depending on how much out of LoS shooting will be prevalent in the meta.
DS tankabusta was a great solution before the PEQ spam and probably will be again a relevant choice, altought buying a BM patrol only for them might be a bummer, since they will eat up already 4 CP with MD and double tap.
15 Tb + (6 squigs) with BM and more Dakka shooting twice does:
26W + (8W) vs KEQ
19.5W + (6W) vs KEQ with IS
34.5W + (10.8W) vs VEQ
same squad with Wreckers does
15.9W + (12.2W) vs KEQ
11.9W + (9.1W) vs KEQ with IS
18.9W + (14.5W) vs VEQ
More dakka, in this case just add
3.5W + (1.9W) vs KEQ
2.5W + (1.5W) vs KEQ with IOS
4.1W (2.3W) vs VEQ
So, in this case the volume of firepower show a clear loss of the tankabusta themselves, but actually a gain for the bombs, that would be increased even more by the DS rerolls. This is also a unit that cost roughly as a Gorka/Morka and is a one trick pony show, So playing it DS it might be the best result in a risk/gain evalutation.
I feel like i might be possible to walk a couple of medium size MANz, depending on how much out of LoS shooting will be prevalent in the meta.
DS tankabusta was a great solution before the PEQ spam and probably will be again a relevant choice, altought buying a BM patrol only for them might be a bummer, since they will eat up already 4 CP with MD and double tap.
15 Tb + (6 squigs) with BM and more Dakka shooting twice does:
26W + (8W) vs KEQ
19.5W + (6W) vs KEQ with IS
34.5W + (10.8W) vs VEQ
same squad with Wreckers does
15.9W + (12.2W) vs KEQ
11.9W + (9.1W) vs KEQ with IS
18.9W + (14.5W) vs VEQ
More dakka, in this case just add
3.5W + (1.9W) vs KEQ
2.5W + (1.5W) vs KEQ with IOS
4.1W (2.3W) vs VEQ
So, in this case the volume of firepower show a clear loss of the tankabusta themselves, but actually a gain for the bombs, that would be increased even more by the DS rerolls. This is also a unit that cost roughly as a Gorka/Morka and is a one trick pony show, So playing it DS it might be the best result in a risk/gain evalutation.
I don't think it's worth taking Bad Moons, although very good, it is far too much CP to be worth it just for a 1 trick pony.
I've found success with tankbustas even without using CP. Re-rolling all hits is already *really* good, and DS gets a re-roll to wound innately, so even not using wreckers is not the end of the world. Even hitting on 6's, you hit 30.6% of the time, and each of those generates an extra hit, netting you out about 40% total hit rate.
I really hope Chinorks don't get squatted (it's... probable), as a deep striking unit of 10 (or just move from behind obscuring terrain t1) i think would be incredibly good. They can take a KMB naturally too, so you'd have a triple re-roll plasma gun firing at a unit, as well as 2 Dakka guns which now don't get a move and shoot penalty.
To me it doesn't feel like tank bustas compare well to a sparkly bits morkanaut. Math is difficult on that one, but if you were planning on bringing a SSAG anyways, you might as well use the shoot twice stratagem on the naut and you can drop wreckes on it in addition to that.
Napkin math tells me that the naut has 7 KMB, 2 rokkits and 12 big shootas, which is less than what tank bustas bring, but it has a realistic chance to survive for another turn with no reduction in shooting, while tank bustas die to a stiff breeze. Even if it dies, it takes significant amounts of firepower to do so. And it does provide a KFF for your army.
Great argument there, I'll do the math asap. However in my experience the squigs are ALWAYS the reason why I take tankabusta. They are like hunter killer missile.
I like both options (max TB squad and BS4+ morkanaut) in 8th and actually played both of them, but due to the lack of CPs that comes with 9th edition investing 6 for the tankbustas bomb is really a huge investment. Starting with 18 CPs and in an era when kustom jobs or strategems from PA didn't exist they were an excellent option, as burning those 6 CPs wasn't a big deal, now I don't know.
In armored heavy lists TB in trukks should still be ok though. Of course assuming points don't become crazy on them and they don't lose their re-rolls while embarked. Maybe even outflanking smaller units of bustas eventually covered by gretchins could work.
The SSAG + Sparkyl Bitz naut is an automatic combo. The SSAG alone may not worth the +2CPs (assuming is the 2nd relic) and shooting twice with it is nice but not always worthy, however the possibility of shooting twice with either a SSAG or a more accurate naut makes the investment for the Dread Waaagh Detachment more juicy. Since PA I don't think I've ever brought the SSAG without a naut.
I feel like a morkanaut being 18 wounds, so you get all the negatives from obscuring terrain, really has to be taken into consideration. Unless you're bringing a whole lot of T8 on the table I'm guessing they'll be popped quicker than ever in a (quite possibly) more vehicle heavy meta.
The point is that tank bustas die even faster and have less range. And even then, any multi-wound T5+ model serves for target saturation, including mek guns and burna bommers, which will remain staples for any ork list.
9th also works differently, it's quite likely that people will prioritize things that are scoring points of a big stompy robot, and obscuring terrain matters a lot less than you might expect from playing 8th. Scoring and denying VP is vastly more important than killing things.
Personally I'm not sold on tankbustas either, but they've never done what I want them to in a game (and that might be on me). But taking equivalent point in MANZ is something I'd look into instead. The upgraded morkanaut is great but I really dislike the fact that it's one per army seeing as kustom jobs are unique and as such it'll often be singled out.
Re: obscuring terrain I think it'll depend on where people play. I often play with people who have their own GW terrain (and almost all of which is obscuring due to GW mostly making ruins) and then it's a huge deal. We'll see how tournies handle it, will "NOVA L's" still be a thing, or phased out with obscuring?
I still think Morkanauts bring enough dakka (and CC potential) that a lot of people will single them out with their AT firepower and fast armies can hide out of their LoS by continuously circling so they have a piece of obscuring terrain between them. I could be wrong, but I could see certain armies being capable of abusing that.
EDIT: From Mob Rules about Orks (counting us a net loss):
Orks
a. Poor Orks. As Danny is a sometimes Ork player, the big funguses really have a soft spot in his heart. I think this army will just have to drastically change the way that they approach the table from the way that they currently play – i.e. the change from Hordes to a more mechanized approach. Things that are good – all the buggies only went up 10 points, and some have decreased weapon costs as well. Trukks went up one point, and things like Battlewagons and its ilk only got slight points rises. In addition, the HQ section (with one exception) only got slight points increases as well. Ork Boyz only got a 1 point price increase (Great!), and Meganobz only got an overall 4 point increase! Great! However, the building block of a lot of Ork lists, Grots, went up quite a lot – 5 points a model. This is extremely expensive for a unit that dies in droves and it is very unfortunate. One of the other big increases was the Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek – going from 80 points to a whopping 120 points – a 50% increase. This seems excessive, but this model (especially with the Relic SAG), was incredible usually one turn per game and picks up something really valuable. We will see how well Orks can shift into a more mechanized and faster army, but we at Mob Rules have faith that Gork and Mork will see us through.
The thing with obscuring terrain is that you have to stay outside of its base to be hidden by it, once you touch the area terrain, you become visible. So you can't actually hide inside those NOVA L's anymore, you need to stand *behind* them, at which point it's quite easy to line up shots for much more mobile vehicles or walkers.
Big Mek in Mega Armour 85
- Grot Oiler 5
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun 95
- Grot Oiler 5
Big Mek with KFF 60
Defilla Wartrike 125
Warboss 70
Weirdboy 75
Boss Snikrot 75
Boss Zagstruk 95
Ghazghkull Traka 300
Makari 65
Kaptin Badrukk 90
- Ammo Runt 5
Mad Dok Grotsnik 90
Hot take? Most of the vehicles have not really changed all that much. For example, the buggies have all had minor tweaks (plus or minus ten points over their 8th ed. Numbers) but are functionally the same. It seems to be the core troops that have had he biggest notable increase.
’Ard case 0
Cybork body 5
Gitfnda squig 0
Grot lash 0
Grot rigger 5
Kustom force field 20
Squig hound 0
Edit: Grots are obviously massive losers but MANZ have actually gone down in points when using twin killsaws now, from 43 to 40. That's pretty tasty IMO.
Bigshootas still 5pts sucks balls.
Grots going to 5pts is a fething joke. They do NOTHING other than die and get in the way, we only used them because GW basically forces us to these days.Prior to 8th i didnt use my grots at all.
Stompa is no surprise. GW clearly doesnt want anybody to use that thing. It will never be proper playable again, not that we could even use the thing in 9th anyway with how LoW's are taken.
Ghaz being 300 is another slap in the face. Dude was overpriced as hell at 285pts, even if he stayed the same he'd be sketchy to use. Perhaps with how terrain works he'll actually be a massive thorn, since the odds of the game turning into a mosh pit in the middle of the board is more likely now.
I think mechanised orks made out okay. The SSAG mek is not all that tempting anymore (or at the very least, his stock buddies are done and dusted). We need fewer troops but paying 150 points for 30 grots or 240 for 30 boys both sting.
Buggies and MANZ are still looking solid here, lootas was hit with a minor increase and tankbustas stayed the same. Kommandoes might see a bit more play now. Bikes at 27 are not tempting at all IMO.
An interesting thing is that almost all weapons and vehicles are costed in increments of 5 pts. Lots of little tweaks to get these to line up into 5 pt slots - combi scorcha went from 17 to 15, Trukk went from costing 64 pts to 65, Shockjump went from 102 to 100, etc etc.
In a sense thats very appreciated.
Often when i built a list i'd be sitting at some funky number where if i added ANYTHING i had access to add i'd be 1-2pts over. Extremely annoying because it usually meant leaving off a Grot Oiler or something else that makes a big enough impact to really annoy me leaving it behind.
Bigshootas still shouldnt be 5pts though unless theyre gonna faq their statline to change.
Yeah, but the kustom shoota is 3 points so it's not like they adhered super strictly to it. Big shootas should've been 2 points but GW at least went the other way and made heavy stubbers 5 so it's not as bad comparatively speaking I guess
Oh, and please make the cybork body at least a 5+++ when the new codex rolls around! Has anyone in this thread ever used one of those in 8th?
gungo wrote: Wow our infantry is dead...
Buggy spam MANZ and deff dreads it is
There is a video on fw units I haven’t had the time to find the ork points for it.
We will need them for missions, don’t write them off just yet. But the killiness of an ork army list is certainly not improved by fielding more than the minimum, for sure ! but yes, why take troops when you have DSManz...
if they'd at least give our grots a proper gun it'd be fine. Cultists are 6pts which stings until you realize they at least can do something if theyre not being a speedbump, and theyre T3 so most anti-chaff guns dont wound them on a 2, grots cant do anything except be a speedbump and virtually always are wounded on a 2..
The 40 grots i usually bring a game tend to kill 1-2 regular marines a game. Yeah, 200pts to kill ~30pts (forget what regular marines went to) sounds right.
Also this is weird. Rokkits went to 10pts but the Kopta Rokkits are 25pts. Wat? Kopta Rokkits are just a twinrokkit, they have no additional perk to them, the heck do they cost 5pts more for? lol good one gw...
Vineheart01 wrote: if they'd at least give our grots a proper gun it'd be fine. Cultists are 6pts which stings until you realize they at least can do something if theyre not being a speedbump, and theyre T3 so most anti-chaff guns dont wound them on a 2, grots cant do anything except be a speedbump and virtually always are wounded on a 2..
The 40 grots i usually bring a game tend to kill 1-2 regular marines a game. Yeah, 200pts to kill ~30pts (forget what regular marines went to) sounds right.
Also this is weird. Rokkits went to 10pts but the Kopta Rokkits are 25pts. Wat? Kopta Rokkits are just a twinrokkit, they have no additional perk to them, the heck do they cost 5pts more for? lol good one gw...
They just don’t want people playing the black reach koptas, so they just made the dual rolkkit option ridiculously overpriced
Vineheart01 wrote: if they'd at least give our grots a proper gun it'd be fine. Cultists are 6pts which stings until you realize they at least can do something if theyre not being a speedbump, and theyre T3 so most anti-chaff guns dont wound them on a 2, grots cant do anything except be a speedbump and virtually always are wounded on a 2..
The 40 grots i usually bring a game tend to kill 1-2 regular marines a game. Yeah, 200pts to kill ~30pts (forget what regular marines went to) sounds right.
Also this is weird. Rokkits went to 10pts but the Kopta Rokkits are 25pts. Wat? Kopta Rokkits are just a twinrokkit, they have no additional perk to them, the heck do they cost 5pts more for? lol good one gw...
Because they can be fired in combat thanks to <vehicle>? You see the same thing on weapon options shared by infantry that have the same name - they changed the cost between what the infantry carry and what goes on a vehicle, and it's generally been +5 points for vehicles.
gungo wrote: Wow our infantry is dead...
Buggy spam MANZ and deff dreads it is
There is a video on fw units I haven’t had the time to find the ork points for it.
We will need them for missions, don’t write them off just yet. But the killiness of an ork army list is certainly not improved by fielding more than the minimum, for sure ! but yes, why take troops when you have DSManz...
Deathskulls means all infantry can do missions
Trukk boys are doable trukks only went up 1pt, and gunwagon is ok
Ssag is dead at 50% pt increase and the basic sag is utterly worthless
Zhardsnark has been squated it is just warboss on bike now
Also knight castellan is 639 points makes our stompa even more laughable at 850
Grots cost the same as a guardsman now
Vineheart01 wrote: if they'd at least give our grots a proper gun it'd be fine. Cultists are 6pts which stings until you realize they at least can do something if theyre not being a speedbump, and theyre T3 so most anti-chaff guns dont wound them on a 2, grots cant do anything except be a speedbump and virtually always are wounded on a 2..
The 40 grots i usually bring a game tend to kill 1-2 regular marines a game. Yeah, 200pts to kill ~30pts (forget what regular marines went to) sounds right.
Also this is weird. Rokkits went to 10pts but the Kopta Rokkits are 25pts. Wat? Kopta Rokkits are just a twinrokkit, they have no additional perk to them, the heck do they cost 5pts more for? lol good one gw...
Twin rokkits are not on infantry right? Same reason heavy bolters are 10 and twin hb 30. You pay for vehicle ability to shoot in melee.
Big Trakk 150
‘Chinork’ Warkopta 85
Battle Wagon with Supa-kannon 210
Gargantuan Squiggoth 360
Grot Mega-tank 95
Grot Tanks 35
Kill Tank 420
Kustom Stompa 960
Lifta Wagon - Not mentioned, but he does mention points for the lifta-droppa
Meka-Dread 250
Squiggoth - Not mentioned
gungo wrote: Wow our infantry is dead...
Buggy spam MANZ and deff dreads it is
There is a video on fw units I haven’t had the time to find the ork points for it.
We will need them for missions, don’t write them off just yet. But the killiness of an ork army list is certainly not improved by fielding more than the minimum, for sure ! but yes, why take troops when you have DSManz...
Deathskulls means all infantry can do missions
Trukk boys are doable trukks only went up 1pt, and gunwagon is ok
Ssag is dead at 50% pt increase and the basic sag is utterly worthless
Zhardsnark has been squated it is just warboss on bike now
Also knight castellan is 639 points makes our stompa even more laughable at 850
Grots cost the same as a guardsman now
Yep, orks are going to become a lot less physically taxing to play. Model count is going to go down by half, if not more
Wow warcopta didn’t get squatted that’s a surprise
But Squiggoth did
Kustom stompa even bigger joke then stompa
Apparently all forgeworld units had a complete rework
So things like Meka dread may still be good I’d pay 250 points for a bs4 killkannon and durable kff Maybe even garg swuiggoth too
gretchin beiing 5 points... i wont even comment futher on this BS
i dont think however that the SAG is dead... well, let me rephrase that... the SSAG is not dead yet, the regular SAG was beeing dead long before and is now beeing poked with a stick to see if it moves... it doesnt.
classical GW. no one knows what to do with orks and how to balance them. Nobbikers beeing 10points less than the supa primaris biker is laughable. MANZ beeing 3 points more than a regular nob? funny, i'll take it. I've been working on some kustom MANz to put through my resin printer anyway... so FU GW
stompa for 850... jesus.. just WTF???... really go FU GW
and finally... well what heavy weapons did orks have on their vehicles to begin with? all our stuff is assault anyway. oh wait my mek gunz can now move 3" before firing... great. meanwhile a repulsor can whistle about the field churring out more dice than any ork unit could possible dream of and still hit something
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, but the kustom shoota is 3 points so it's not like they adhered super strictly to it.
Hence my use of the word, "almost".
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just questioning the point if they're not going to be consistent with it. Right now it feels like some things to a bigger nerf than they should've for the sake of simplicity but then GW didn't really go all the way with it, so is it really all that much simpler? It's odd IMO
Lootas 20ppm? Flash gitz 32ppm? Both got hit pretty hard with the new points. Not to mention that now detachments aren't spammable so heavy support choices have a nasty competition.
Trukks were just +1 but all kind of wagon got a +20 price hike.
Only units that basically kept their points are bustas, meganobz, warboss, trukk, plus arguably boyz, dreads, Smasha gunz, nobz and buggies. Some other vehicle maybe.
I haven't done the math but I suspect a 200ish points hike on the tipycal 2000 points lists that I used to field in 8th, which is the expected +10%, so nothing shocking after all.
At this point I'm really tempted to give up 3 CPs and field a spearhead detachment with no troops at all, but I haven't seen the missions yet and I'm not sure if going full mechanized bringing walkers, artillery, and vehicles with nothing but characters and meganobz as infantries could work.
RedNoak wrote: gretchin beiing 5 points... i wont even comment futher on this BS
i dont think however that the SAG is dead... well, let me rephrase that... the SSAG is not dead yet, the regular SAG was beeing dead long before and is now beeing poked with a stick to see if it moves... it doesnt.
classical GW. no one knows what to do with orks and how to balance them. Nobbikers beeing 10points less than the supa primaris biker is laughable. MANZ beeing 3 points more than a regular nob? funny, i'll take it. I've been working on some kustom MANz to put through my resin printer anyway... so FU GW
stompa for 850... jesus.. just WTF???... really go FU GW
and finally... well what heavy weapons did orks have on their vehicles to begin with? all our stuff is assault anyway. oh wait my mek gunz can now move 3" before firing... great. meanwhile a repulsor can whistle about the field churring out more dice than any ork unit could possible dream of and still hit something
3 pts for meganobz? Nob 17, meganob 25(plus weapons presumably). 6 pts more. Though still good. Too bad have to pay for weapons.
RedNoak wrote: gretchin beiing 5 points... i wont even comment futher on this BS
i dont think however that the SAG is dead... well, let me rephrase that... the SSAG is not dead yet, the regular SAG was beeing dead long before and is now beeing poked with a stick to see if it moves... it doesnt.
classical GW. no one knows what to do with orks and how to balance them. Nobbikers beeing 10points less than the supa primaris biker is laughable. MANZ beeing 3 points more than a regular nob? funny, i'll take it. I've been working on some kustom MANz to put through my resin printer anyway... so FU GW
stompa for 850... jesus.. just WTF???... really go FU GW
and finally... well what heavy weapons did orks have on their vehicles to begin with? all our stuff is assault anyway. oh wait my mek gunz can now move 3" before firing... great. meanwhile a repulsor can whistle about the field churring out more dice than any ork unit could possible dream of and still hit something
3 pts for meganobz? Nob 17, meganob 25(plus weapons presumably). 6 pts more. Though still good. Too bad have to pay for weapons.
yeah missed the +5 pts increase^^
still gud thought
but hey at least Flashgits are one orks worth of teeth cheaper than an aggressor xD
With that flashgitz hike and mission heavy rules looks like deathskulls even better.
3x10 boys
Weirdboy w deathskull power
Warboss on bike
Da boomer
Morkanaut w sparkly or mekadread
Gorknaut w relic weapon
2-3x melee deffdreads (maybe a skorcha)
2x SJD w whirlygig
6-10 mega nobs
6+ smashas guns
2x burnabombers
Maybe ssag if I take dreadmob
Maybe 6 tankbusta squad (Placed inside the deep striking gorkanaut)
Depending how many buggies you use wartrike might be useful...
Maybe 5 man squad of objective grabbing kommandos
Same with cheap deffkopta for a turn 1 quick objective grab.
I’m actually not worried about the 6+ blast rules it’s only Min 3 Total hits which doesn’t help that much.
Looks like they nerfed everything that was good but didn’t nerf the things that got improved during saga of the beast..like 9th was written when ork hordes were great. I’m overall disappointed on the points changes not a whole lot helped us out... and as everyone said grots should be 4ppm tops. SAG is 20 points to much. Burna boyz 2ppm to much. Stompa 150pts to much (not to mention detachment rules makes taking a single superheavy difficult), both warbikers 5ppm to much, stormboys 1ppm to much maybe 2, lootas 4ppm to much, flashgitz 4ppm to much, killakans 5ppm to much, nobz 2ppm to much, mek workshop 50ppm to much. With those fixes Orks would be a bit more balanced internally. Still not competitively unless ork boys were kept 7ppm
My list just went up 234 points.....
Gotta see that 1day FAQ and see whattafuck were they thinking with FG , Grots, SSAG and Ghaz. But it feels like I won't field 125 grots no more.....
Doubtful but at this price point grots and killa kans and Grot tanks can all benefit from clan tactics and be okay...
smashas would be a bit stronger then they should but bubble chukka and KMB And traktor would be okay.
To be fair I don’t expect many codex FAQs to make drastic changes
Rattler cannons went to 0pts for some reason. A Chinork can take 2 of them and now doesnt suffer movement penalties.
Thats a sub100pt dedicated transport spitting out 24" 4D6 S5 AP2 D3D shots, plus whatever inside its opentopped capacity.
Theres no way they intended that, i bet they forgot the rattler was an option. Thats almost as ridiculous as 7th Wave Serpents lol
I wonder if they lost it from their wargear section? cause yeah, I saw that, that won't stick. Cause jesus, that would melt.
The one I believe more is the Dakka gun version. 95 points eh? Makes the argument with it vs trukk much harder.
I can't believe flash gits went from 24 -> 32 ... they *just* dropped them 6 points in Decemember.
Edit: Supa Lobba variant of the Garg squiggoth went down a bit. Shame it costs you 3 CP, but that thing is gonna wreck now that it can move and shoot, and hopefully still has it's cool howdah ability (IE: It can still shoot out of combat at any target, and so can its passengers)
Pending the FW datasheets, I think there might be some potential to start running FW units again based on these points. The Garg Squiggoth with supa-lobbas only went up 14 points, that's not much in the scheme of things. Assuming it gets the blast rule + its ability to ignore the heavy penalty actually makes it seem worth while.
Boyz going from 7-8 seems like an implicit buff to me, same with kommandos going from 8-9. Gretchin going from 3-5 makes sense with how they want 5 to be the baseline but Gretchin aren't a 5 ppm model as they are at the moment. If they get kulturs and stratagems I would think so. I think we'll see a swing to boyz being the staple troop and large units of kommandos won't feel like a bad idea. Stormboyz and Burnaboyz I feel less enthused about. It might be that a 12" flying infantry unit has a lot more value in the smaller battlefields with denser terrain. Burnaboyz might also be implicitly better with the smaller table size but imo they either need to cost as much as kommandos or receive some kind of buff.
Flash Gitz and Meganobz are both units that I always feel like are on the cusp of being competitive but are always slightly off. The relative increase in cost to Flash Gitz hurts this a lot. In contrast of this the killsaw Meganobz might be a valid unit, especially with the emphasis on holding objectives. I can also see arguments for MSU Meganobz to take advantage of Deathskulls, or units of 10 to take advantage of their relative tankiness.
Tankbustas staying the same number of points is confusing but I'll take it.
Trukks being 60 points is interesting to me, Trukk boyz is something I've been wanting to do and it might just be that the cost is relatively low enough to warrant it.
I have a bunch more misc thoughts but the vibe I'm getting is we'll be seeing more Boyz, MANz, vehicles, and maybe FW. So probably see armies that look like the photos and art, with a small horde of boyz backed by some dreads being lead by a few characters.
Madjob wrote: For MANz it's obviously killsaws, but other flavors of Nobz, Power Klaws worth taking over Big Choppas at 10pts now?
Why? Take doubke kill saw for 15 ppm.
Hell, a regular Kill saw at 10 is better than a PK. They are the exact same cost.
For a Nob Squad... I dunno. The problem is they are what.. 27 ppm with PK? That's a lot of points for a 4+ save model. You might as well upgrade to a Mega Nob for the 2+ save, +1 wound, and awesome hit em harder strat.
Madjob wrote: For MANz it's obviously killsaws, but other flavors of Nobz, Power Klaws worth taking over Big Choppas at 10pts now?
For the nob in a unit of boyz I could see myself taking the Power Klaw over the Big Choppa now. Allows you to let the boyz take on more varied targets. For a unit of nobz or nob bikers I would probably use big choppas. It's significantly cheaper across the whole unit and you can lean into the law of large numbers to overcome any of the Big Choppa's short comings. Nob Bikers can also get +1 to their strength from a stratagem in Saga of the Beast which closes the gap even more.
I'm now keen to take a gargantuan squiggoth full of flashgits... lots of dakka, lots of wounds, and the flashgits can shoot even in combat... lose 1 BS for moving and shooting but still pretty effective.
I've been wanting to build some warkoptas for a while, I love the rattler cannon profile. Guess my trukkas are going airborne...
some bloke wrote: I'm now keen to take a gargantuan squiggoth full of flashgits... lots of dakka, lots of wounds, and the flashgits can shoot even in combat... lose 1 BS for moving and shooting but still pretty effective.
I've been wanting to build some warkoptas for a while, I love the rattler cannon profile. Guess my trukkas are going airborne...
I'm literally in the process of painting a Garg Squig Just got the wash done. I haven't done the Howdah yet at all, I wanted to see how everything came out.
But yeah, legit, double Supa Lobba Garg squiggoth seems terrifying.
Edit: Double Rocket Deff Koptas are now 44 -> 45. They came out quite rosy.
Yeah, this seems like a pretty brutal hit to Ork lists. Not only do we no longer have more base CP to deal with an incredibly CP hungry army, but we also can't take advantage of the new subkulturs without paying a premium and points-wise our troop tax spiked a hell of a lot higher. Looks like we're going to have 20-60 boyz sprinkled with a butt-ton of vehicles in our new lists nowadays.
The Boyz, flash Gitz and Loota hits are all pretty tough to take in light of Intercessor and Eradicator options for SM. Also points increases for BW's as well. Trukk boyz are the way to go maybe, though they'll fold like a wet paper towel too.
I hold some hope that we'll at least see a couple of new kits this year. Hopefully a warboss kit and a dedicated MBT thanks to these rumour engine tid bits.
tulun wrote: Edit: Double Rocket Deff Koptas are now 44 -> 45. They came out quite rosy.
Unfortunately they're 50ppm. (25 + 25)
Ah shoot, you're right.
Honestly, Trukks might be really useful straight up for DS screening. They are only like 70 points now? better than spending 50 points on grots. They can't screen ON field as well, obviously, but for DS, they are great. Plus if they eat up your opponents anti tank, all the better.
A lot of these points changes were fairly obvious.
It was obvious they were going to hike Boyz and the Souped up Shokka, which you are already paying a premium for with the command point changes.
Hate to say I told you so but I feel we are dead on arrival as a faction until we get a codex.
Really don't understand why Gorkanauts and Morkanauts are still do damned expensive, nobody takes them and its such a crying shame for such a fun model.
It was obvious they were going to hike Boyz and the Souped up Shokka, which you are already paying a premium for with the command point changes.
Hate to say I told you so but I feel we are dead on arrival as a faction until we get a codex.
Really don't understand why Gorkanauts and Morkanauts are still do damned expensive, nobody takes them and its such a crying shame for such a fun model.
Mork w/ KFF went from 310 -> 340. 10% point hike is nothing... At BS4 now, it's probably quite good. It can even leave combat, being of the few units now with this ability.
The SSAG I wonder if it's a misprint. Nothing else can take the SAG in the codex, it should be included in the cost. Quite odd. Tbh though, the relic SAG is probably worth that. Just don't bother with the other 2 anymore.
The FAQs are out but even though GW says the ork one was updated today, it seemingly wasn't? It's still the old font and they haven't addressed the weird stuff from Saga of the beast..
Guess I'll check back in later
Edit: Dendarien: Yeah, 6 troop slots are going to be a rough tax from here on in. I think maneuvering around slots in a battalion is the best bet most likely
Yea it looks like they messed that up, but glancing through other FAQs makes clear GW's intent with rules that cause a roll to be modified further than +1/-1 without stacking - they'll never do more than +1/-1, they just help counteract each other.
So non-ES Shokkjump Dragstas get to fire on 4+ whether they advanced or not (+2 to hit, -1 for advancing, caps at +1), ES Dragstas get left out in the cold.
I don't think Orks are viable until next codex . I missed the Grots at 5 ppm. I need a real pause and see what I'll play this edition. I might skip playing anything for a while and just organise tournaments and leagues.
I mean 100 Grots is 500 points.
Please don't attempt to dodge the swear filter
Yeah, this initial release feels more like "We want marines to win" than it did when they got a new codex.
Everybody except vanilla marines feels like they got slapped with a wet donkey dong. So many unusual price hykes in addition to various nerfs via core rules, yet marines almost untouched and also got all that ridiculous new stuff.
Even other imperial, non-marine armies got shafted. Admech heavy options are mega expensive now for some reason, rangers got neutered randomly, and all the new stuff got surprisingly neutered before they even did anything lol.
The literal only thing orks got that didnt seem to piss us off was the Chinork thing, which 100% was a mistake and they'll probably fix that the moment they realize it. All of our stuff went up big time in price when most of it was overpriced in the first place.
Emicrania wrote: I don't think Orks are viable until next codex . I missed the Grots at 5 ppm. I need a real pause and see what I'll play this edition. I might skip playing anything for a while and just organise tournaments and leagues.
I mean 100 Grots is 500 points.
Go F U C K yourself.
According to Goonhammer, we are losers! One of the very few.
But that was largely based on the Shock Attack Gun, which went up 50%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ork FAQ up!
*Page 106, 108 and 121 – Deff rolla, Abilities
Change to read:
‘Each time an attack is made with this weapon, the bearer has a
WS characteristic of 2+ for that attack.’
*Page 101 – Shokkjump Dragsta, Grot Gunner and
Targetin’ Squig
Change to read:
‘Each time this model makes an attack with its kustom shokk
rifle, this model has a BS characteristic of 3+ for that attack.’
Shokkjump Dragsta counts as BS3 when firing its Kustom gun
Deffrolla counts as WS2 when attacking with that weapon.
...
...
they nerfed....big n stompy... what...
*Page 110 and 111 – Morkanaut and Gorkanaut, Big ‘n’ Stompy
Change to read:
‘This model is eligible to declare a charge in a turn in which it
Fell Back.’
they cant shoot if they fall back. What the what?
