Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)
These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).
Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?
There was a rumor that Iron hands and imperial fists would be the strongest chapters. So far it's coming true. I don't really know what to say about "proxying" Ultramarines as iron hands, I know I'd never have a problem with it but I know you've seen people say that paint jobs do in fact lock you in to what chapter you play
I'm betting IF will also have a devastator super doctrine which is a huge advantage over other chapters.
I'll be sticking with the Ultras for sure. I think they are perfectly good and actually more flexible.
Iron Hands are a more easy to use, point and click army. We'll see how they actually perform in dynamic, objective based games at higher levels of play.
Make no mistake however, you could take an Iron Hands list with a few Dreads, a few Repulsors and various infantry units and probably go 3,1,1 at a GT or Major without much experience lol
Xenomancers wrote: Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)
These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).
Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?
It's fine. The Codex Astartes has alternate color schemes and unit markings, down to camo patterns for different environments. Yes, there have been pictures of this (and they're still around if you can find the First Book of the Astronomicon compliation (the red one).
And if this weren't the case, most every modern Dark Angel army would be 'illegal,' since their 'codex color' is black.
The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.
Should you feel bad ? If you have to ask I doubt you will so do what you want.
That said, I wouldn't feel bad. Here is the thing, if you go around with blue marines saying they are iron hands, that feels meh. If they are all ultra marined up, that kinda urks me but I get people want the best toys so fair enough.
What I would do, and usually do is unless I'm sure I want that specific chapter i do my own paint schemes and try and stick away from chapter specific things just so it's not as hard to change it up if I want to. That said I have Dark Angels and Space Wolves and i'd not run them as anything but them, vanilla marines ? I'm more open to whatever with them.
Remember just because this book says iron hands, raven guard , whatever, you can really say they are whatever your chapter is as its more combat styles and less just those chapters. So could be plenty of other chapters that have a penchant for tech, or stealthy character strikes, so on, so forth.
Just to me it makes more sense to say your chapter is whatever name you've got, using iron hands rules as opposed a million iron hands armies. It's a small difference but it helps with my immersion.
It's pretty arrogant to just assume people will know the difference just because you play marines.
Also, no one gives a feth what you play and you specifically probably aren't going to win anyway. You'll be back here complaining about disintigrator cannons and Castellans within a week.
I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?
Spoiler:
Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere
Xenomancers wrote: I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all.
Haven't you just answered your own question here?
Xeno has basicly been complaining about everything since the space marine codex leaks started, this is just more of the same.
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Ishagu wrote: I'll be sticking with the Ultras for sure. I think they are perfectly good and actually more flexible.
Iron Hands are a more easy to use, point and click army. We'll see how they actually perform in dynamic, objective based games at higher levels of play.
Make no mistake however, you could take an Iron Hands list with a few Dreads, a few Repulsors and various infantry units and probably go 3,1,1 at a GT or Major without much experience lol
Marine player agonizing over power creep weeks after first power creep as their previous blue army already feels outdated is pretty funny.
Well, invul is good I guess, but would it really come into play against many D2 weapons? Say against Reapers you are already rolling 5+. And don't some vehicles like dreads already have it (or 2+)? And you are becoming vulnerable due to inability to fall back and shoot which is imo awesome Ultra ability.
So if we follow the patern of start of 8th ed, in 3-4 codex/supplements we are going to get eldar or new IG, which are going to have units shoting three times per turn and with guardsman still costing 4pts, but now being armed with plasma rifles
Playing blue IH could probably hurt, if you have a specific eye conditon and don't have glasses on you .
Karol wrote: So if we follow the patern of start of 8th ed, in 3-4 codex/supplements we are going to get eldar or new IG, which are going to have units shoting three times per turn
Judging by 6 new abilities for single Banshee squad, only if new shiny models to buy get released. So Imperium players have nothing to worry about.
Voss wrote: The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.
Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.
What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.
Voss wrote: The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.
Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.
What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.
Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.
Xenomancers wrote: I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?
I know. Do you know?
Let me explain. When you jump sub-factions with your models due to powercreep, you reveal that you care more about winning games than portraying an army as it exists in your minds eye.(Were your blue marines hyper-disciplined warriors drilled for every contingency? Now they're more tanky and better with vehicles) That's your choice and your right, you won't be the first or last.
The fact that you're here trying to justify it means that somewhere in your heart you'd like to be (or at least perceived to be) somewhere on the narrative/creative end of the wargamer spectrum. There are narrative reasons to faction switch- in editions without chaos faction rules, Night lords switching to Blood Angels to filed a jump heavy army- Khornate armies fielding as Space Wolves for strong foot melee units with marines mounted on beasts (berzerker bloodcrushers)
You haven't listed any of these though- you're purely after bang for buck points efficiency. Own that, let your opponents know and have fun.
Voss wrote: The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.
Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.
What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.
Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.
Just a heads up.
Not at your local GW store, at least from what I heard of our local GW store. It certainly is at the big GW events though. That being said that has nothing to do with what is written in the rulebooks, it's just a house rule for large organized events held by GW.
Voss wrote: The only 'But Though Must...' is if you specifically use the Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic AND paint up a known successor chapter.
Nope.
Paint doesn't matter.
What matters is which keywords you chose to use for your models - if you chose a successor chapter with a known parent chapter, and use IotP, you're locked to that chapter trait. If you just run them as STORMY BOYS instead of STORM LORDS you're free to use whatever chapter tactic you like. The only downside to that is that if there's a named STORM LORDS character, you're no able to bring him without major downsides as he's not the same chapter as the BOYS.
Actually in gw tournaments paint matters.
Not the keywords.
Just a heads up.
Not at your local GW store, at least from what I heard of our local GW store. It certainly is at the big GW events though. That being said that has nothing to do with what is written in the rulebooks, it's just a house rule for large organized events held by GW.
Consider the fact that it is their official stance for their gt 's etc.
I feel like your argument is moot.
Also my gw store ain't existing because they never bothered to build one in switzerland
Technically, all you need to do is to replace the upside-down toilet seats of your Ultramarines with white skeletal hands and say "MuH SuCceSsoR cHaPtEr".
Consider the fact that it is their official stance for their gt 's etc.
I feel like your argument is moot.
Also my gw store ain't existing because they never bothered to build one in switzerland
It's their official stance for their own large organized events, but not for small scale local tournaments or pick up games in the stores.
Spoiler:
FYI:
In English grammar and in particular in casual English, generic you, impersonal you, or indefinite you is the use of the pronoun you to refer to an unspecified person, as opposed to its use as the second person pronoun.
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Not Online!!! wrote: Leave me alone, am allready fed up with marines and we just have 2 out....
Well, I just lost with my salamanders yesterday to a Custodes army. Granted, his mvps were 2 squads of salamander Centurion devastators, but technically he still had more points in his Custodes part of the army
All depends on your opponent I guess.
Last night I played a guy with thousand sons and alpha legion, which was a mixed bag with unpainted cultists, half painted rubrics, I think black legion old style havocs, and old black legion tusked terminators masquerading as scarab occult terminators.
I mostly just rolled my eyes except for when he said he likes scarab occult terminators and, with a wink and a grin suggested he buy some!
Marine players have had special snowflake rules for like 3 editions now. You telling me you guys haven't caught on to painting your chapter in a custom scheme yet? Really?
No, but IMHO it makes you look like a powergaming min/maxing player (not TFG, but the sort of person who cares more about game than fluff). Especially if they are actually done up like Ultramarines or whatever with those symbols, and you're just using IH rules if they're better. Making your own chapter using IH rules that just happens to be blue isn' an issue.
It's been an age-old debate whether rules represent actual rules, like ingrained rules, or just combat doctrines that anyone can use but for game purposes only X gets it. And over the editions and years it's varied based on how the rules are presented. Take the Ultramarine doctrines for example; these are pretty generic, there's no reason why it's an Ultramarine only thing outside of the game.
I'm not sure about Iron Hands, but it's the same argument.
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
As an opponent I wouldn't care. they can be full on ultramarines blue with markings and heraldry and you say "its all iron hands" and I am fine...
The catch here is that is you come at me with all ultramarines and "this spearhead is Salamanders, This batallion is iron hands, and this supreme command is blood angels" while they all look like the same models... nope.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.
Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"
I don't get it, why would you feel bad about using your army? Previously you could paint whatever you wanted your army to be, but nowadays it seems that it has to match GW's schemes exactly, lest there be problems. Its one of the problems with soup, really, and why this all-or-nothing Doctrine system is a step in the right direction.
As long as you are consistent and make it clear what is what, I don't see what the problem is.
I see no problem as long as the OP is using Iron Hands successor chapter tactic, i.e. Inheritors of the Primarch successor tactic.
That, or claiming to be a successor of Iron Hands after picking two options from Successor Chapter Tactics.
I believe the issue is whether or not you can use the much vaunted Iron Father Feirros as Iron Hands successor chapter.
From what I know, only "original" Iron Hands can use special characters.
But then again there is this undying conundrum which many posters have pointed out: does the actual paint scheme matter rules-wise?
My gut feeling is that you cannot use Feirros unless you have painted your models according to Iron Hands scheme, but ultimately it depends on how your friends think.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.
Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"
The principle isn't the same as the person is still using marine models with marine weapons and marine stats. More or less nothing changes except some sub-faction rule that should have been sub-faction-agnostic to begin with.
This obsession about the right color scheme is a bit Orkish I might add. If my friend - who plays Ultramarines - suddenly says that his army is running as White Scar my brain does not go into a mode where I am incapable of realizing that the army is not Ultramarines.
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But then again there is this undying conundrum which many posters have pointed out: does the actual paint scheme matter rules-wise?
If GW would go out and explicitly say that the color scheme has to match the faction you'll probably see a lot of people leaving the hobby. It is one thing for tournaments having their own explicit rules, but if GW would do this it would cause a conniption. It would probably end with GW giving out a tourney advice on not using sub-faction rules if they are not agnostic.
Shadenuat wrote: Marine player agonizing over power creep weeks after first power creep as their previous blue army already feels outdated is pretty funny.
Well, invul is good I guess, but would it really come into play against many D2 weapons? Say against Reapers you are already rolling 5+. And don't some vehicles like dreads already have it (or 2+)? And you are becoming vulnerable due to inability to fall back and shoot which is imo awesome Ultra ability.
2 damage weapons with -1 damage are 1damage weapons AND 6+ FNP to make your 3 damage weapons (which are 2 damage weapons now) into 1 damage weapons about 55% of the time.
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Stevefamine wrote: How many ultramarines have you painted? Re-prime black time?
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)
Sadly that's also true
I'll do you one better, your army changes to your loyalist counterpart or GSC because it literally is no more fun for your opponent because your army literally became the laughing stock of 40k.
It's not just the powerchacers that change up rulesets. it's also those that get rulesets so abmissal that you would need to implement a 25% handicap to get an even match.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Or, just hear me out, Stratagems and subfaction advantages have gotten so ridicoulus that it is basically a necessity now, to get a somewhat equal footting? (basically internal balanced is fethed to the point of no return.)
Exactly this.
It's the recent co-factors that are causing issue as a lot of people picked their army and color scheme a long time ago.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
The subfaction rules have gotten out of hand. They are just making them more and more impactful, and they mattered too much already. And of course some end up much better than others, to the degree that they have a serious impact even in a casual setting.
Things that do not cost points are an utter hell to balance, if it turns out some weapon is much better than other options, you can always bump the points in the CA. You can't do that with the free stuff, and with so many options making them all equally good is probably just humanly impossible.
I really wish we could go back to the time when subfactions were just fluff and paint. If some bespoke rules absolutely must exist, then they would be really low-impact things that do not affect the balance significantly.
Trust me also - If I was picking an marine army for being OP. I would have picked space wolves a long time ago. Or 7th eddition white scars.
Ultras have always been a weaker chapter - only at the end of 7th did they become above average. The power spread has never been this bad though. In fact marines have always been a really bad army. Except for late 7th eddition.
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Crimson wrote: The subfaction rules have gotten out of hand. They are just making them more and more impactful, and they mattered too much already. And of course some end up much better than others, to the degree that they have a serious impact even in a casual setting.
Things that do not cost points are an utter hell to balance, if it turns out some weapon is much better than other options, you can always bump the points in the CA. You can't do that with the free stuff, and with so many options making them all equally good is probably just humanly impossible.
I really wish we could go back to the time when subfactions were just fluff and paint. If some bespoke rules absolutely must exist, then they would be really low-impact things that do not affect the balance significantly.
As long as you were clear and consistent (My army is painted as Ultras across the board, but I'm using the IH rules across the board), I really couldn't care less what sub-faction you "played as". I'm not going to insist you spend an hour playing with a strictly inferior list because GW rules writers can't do their jobs properly.
At the end of the day, there is no reason they can't be Ultramarines in narrative/casual and Iron Hands in competitive. Just depends on what style you and your opponent feel like playing at the moment.
I run my Ulthwe hemlocks as Alaitoc crimson hunter exarchs all the time when I'm matched against my buddies who I know are looking for a challenge.
But I also run them as Ulthwe just as often because a spearhead of Ulthwe wraithlords is fething awesome and sometimes I want to play with my other toys outside the latest meta cheese. Switching between casual/competitive is tons of fun, I highly recommend it.
No. I don't feel bad being silver Order of the Bloody Rose [I like being stabby; and I'd rather paint GK Sisters than Khador Sisters], or being Cadian Catachans [to be fair, I actually have Catachan models too; my original guardsmen were Catachan, but they're ridiculously poorly painted and very strange looking so I don't use them, but if someone was going to get pissy about it, I could switch out at least enough infantry to make one battalion actually Catachan].
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
What do you think Warpsmiths feel like.
They all decided to join the calvary and ride mechanical spiders . Really though what are you saying? Aren't they equal to space marine tech marine? except also have have a weird rule to do mortal wounds to enemy vehicles?
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
What do you think Warpsmiths feel like.
They all decided to join the calvary and ride mechanical spiders . Really though what are you saying? Aren't they equal to space marine tech marine? except also have have a weird rule to do mortal wounds to enemy vehicles?
1 wierd round, and if they join the cav they can't fix gak anymore
Altough i might have personally contributed to the lack of ground crew:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.
Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"
This is nonsense
He's not using centurions to represent aggressors, or scouts to represent Phobos Armour, it's just "I'm gonna use these special rules that aren't consistent edition to edition to play the way I prefer as opposed to locking myself into a single faction"
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.
That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.
Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.
Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"
This is nonsense
He's not using centurions to represent aggressors, or scouts to represent Phobos Armour, it's just "I'm gonna use these special rules that aren't consistent edition to edition to play the way I prefer as opposed to locking myself into a single faction"
No you should just feel bad for playing smurfs in the 1st place.
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I mean I seem to remember smurf players having very few problems when Girly was broke but that was hardly shocking I guess, who knew people who picked the op Mary Sue chapter were fickle and not really fans.
I use Dark Angels rules because my army is Dark Angels and I don't mind that much about power, I'm not the kind of competitive guy.
At the same time I despise the mentality of "If you have your guys painted in this official paint scheme you should use the rules GW has arbitrarely decided they work better for your army, be it from a competitive or a narrative standpoint"
Specially because those are normally the same kind of people that will say "What? Why are you using Marneus Calgar with your Novamarines? If you pain them as Novamarines you can't proxy them as Ultramarines, they have to be successors and lose nearly all the rules!".
Man, Dark Angels successors rules are just so stupid "Do you want freedom to paint your guys? Ok no problem you just lose 30% of the rules of your army."
So for example with my Tau I'll switch rules as much as I want based in the theme of the army I'm gonna play. Fusion spam with stealth suits, Piranhas, Crisis suits, etc...? Vior'la then. Breacher spam in Devilfishes? Farsight enclaves! Not because I want to have a competitive advantage but because the rules help me make my list work in the way I want to play it.
Anyway, GW put out those rules from his ass, so is not like they have any kind of narrative coherency.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
Let me say first, play what you want, it's all good.
That said, have you even played your Ultras as iron hands or is this more wild speculation based on what we know without on the board trial ? You really need to perhaps relax and let the dust settle before the sky begins to fall. We just got over the great G man genocide and now we're onto Ironhanocalypse. What's next ? Will they be better represented as black templars next ? Maybe salamanders ? How about imperial fists ?
Maybe, love your army and stop trying to chase the dragon ? I know I'm happier in not doing that all the time. Good, bad, you don't prove you are better than anyone just following the marine flavor of the month, you do it with effort, knowledge and experience with your chosen force. Know yourself and your enemy, and you will achieve victory in countless battles. Ultramarines will still be good and ditching out on your blue boys will at the least leave you feeling empty, and at worst be a waste of time and make you feel meh.
Hawky wrote: There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".
Seems it's true, after all.
Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.
Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...
It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.
Let me say first, play what you want, it's all good.
That said, have you even played your Ultras as iron hands or is this more wild speculation based on what we know without on the board trial ? You really need to perhaps relax and let the dust settle before the sky begins to fall. We just got over the great G man genocide and now we're onto Ironhanocalypse. What's next ? Will they be better represented as black templars next ? Maybe salamanders ? How about imperial fists ?
Maybe, love your army and stop trying to chase the dragon ? I know I'm happier in not doing that all the time. Good, bad, you don't prove you are better than anyone just following the marine flavor of the month, you do it with effort, knowledge and experience with your chosen force. Know yourself and your enemy, and you will achieve victory in countless battles. Ultramarines will still be good and ditching out on your blue boys will at the least leave you feeling empty, and at worst be a waste of time and make you feel meh.
No this is classic xenomancers throwing his hand up in the air and saying trash tier fire without doing any trials, experimentation or getting experience with new rules..
This is the same person after all that was throwing his toys out of the pram and saying the new SM codex was trash tier and its the end of everything because repulsor went up 20 points and he couldint table people... Nothing is ever good enough and no amount of spesh snow flakes rules can make marines good enough unless they just kill everything 100% of the time.
Not even sure what the point of the thread is.. Why do you even want to play in the first place? Marines auto loose trash fire anyway...Riiiiiight? I really don't understand why you'd need to justify how you play with your blue power armour dudes.. Its still power armour dudes no matter what colour they are. Maybe feel bad about that instead
I don't know, I speak on it more for those who may actually be reading but don't comment often. If someone was out there who felt like after reading all this they " need " to keep changing their army to try and stay on the cutting edge.
I've seen every marine book be the current hot thing for a time, this latest batch is no different.
If GW keep it up, I'm sue Deathwatch will be all " OMG if you aren't deathwatch you aren't worth playing marines !! " remember those threads ? I remember, and so does a current beloved cookie maker.
I'm sure at that point DA and SW will get some nasty super cool stuff and what then ? Will they just keep rotating to the next best thing ?
I mean play what you want but if you're going to just chase the new shinny thing, it's an endless cycle with countless dips and highs that will never end. It's the cycle GW want you on. Why do you think they take into account army paint jobs to lock you into certain armies ? They want you buying all the marine chatpers that way you are never weaker. It's brilliant sales tactics, being happy and making what you have work is bad for the bottom line.
Maybe actually try all this stuff out when it drops though before duck, dipping, dodging and diving into a new chapter hmm ? Remenber, if you can dodge a brick, you can dodge a GW hype train.
"Successors of: Unknown" "The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."
So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.
This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.
"Successors of: Unknown" "The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."
So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.
This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.
A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
Xenomancers wrote: Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)
These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).
Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?
Well, in our local tourneys we won't allow blue ironhands for Emperor's sake.
"Successors of: Unknown" "The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."
So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.
This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.
A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.
(shrugs) Novels =/= a source of rules. So unless they print it somewhere in a rule book mine will remain a mystery origin.
"Successors of: Unknown" "The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."
So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.
This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.
A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.
(shrugs) Novels =/= a source of rules. So unless they print it somewhere in a rule book mine will remain a mystery origin.
Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.
Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.
Fluff determines rules here.
Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.
Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.
Fluff determines rules here.
Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.
This is GW were talking about alot of the rules arguments have become absured, doesn't unfortunately stop them being RAW.
Not to mention that I'm sure a number of people saying you must play to paint scheme could be found to have been using custom paint schemes on named charictors. If your going to be the one saying ultramarine painted models must be ultramarine, then you can't use your successors paint job on named charictors as they would have to be painted to box art paint schemes.
No doublr standards thank you.
This is GW were talking about alot of the rules arguments have become absured, doesn't unfortunately stop them being RAW.
Well, if fluff is rules, then we must treat it like the rules regarding the publishing order too. So as the latest source, Codex Space Mariners Mk2, lists Mentors as unknown, that is what they are; an earlier mention by BL has been superseded.
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.
Well, like most things I think some people answer less for the poster and more to debate the topic and offer up ideas for those who read but not post.
Maybe someone searching the forum is feeling like that and some of the silly shown has changed their mind and they'll stick with their ultramarines ? I can only hope there is some good out of it, as I think we all know Xeno is just going to end up forever bandwagon jumping and freaking out as time goes on.
Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.
Fluff determines rules here.
Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.
I agree, mind you IMHO those rules only really matter if the chapter has a special character (so no running a novamarine army with the novamarine character and claiming they're Iron Hands sucessors) otherwise you're just penalizing paint job. and enchouraging custom chapters "with mysterious orgins!" which frankly is waaaaaaaaaaaay over done. In this case I mostly pointed it out because it might be pointed out locally, and if he's got a local TFG who would call it and has read all the rules, best to be perpared.
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.
I don't know how you don't get banned for talking such trash...
At least make an argument of some kind like..."you crazy man" "Ironhands aren't OP compared to other chapters" You'd be wrong - but at least contributing to the discussion in some way. Also...you should get out more. Nothing I am saying is even close to ludicrous. Just look at ironhands getting all the auras/best tactic/ super doctrine applies turn 1 and is basically a repeat of the ultramarines tactic with a small difference in bonus rule of reroll 1's instead of "counts as stationary".
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.
I don't know how you don't get banned for talking such trash...
At least make an argument of some kind like..."you crazy man" "Ironhands aren't OP compared to other chapters" You'd be wrong - but at least contributing to the discussion in some way. Also...you should get out more. Nothing I am saying is even close to ludicrous. Just look at ironhands getting all the auras/best tactic/ super doctrine applies turn 1 and is basically a repeat of the ultramarines tactic with a small difference in bonus rule of reroll 1's instead of "counts as stationary".
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
Please elaborate.
I believe he is saying that comparing 6+++ to a blanket -1 to hit army wide for the Eldar is ironic considering your outcry about comparing IH to ultras and arguing to no end how IH are hands down better than everything else.. If irony was made of strawberries we'd be all having some delicious smoothies right about now.
I will go out on a limb, and say what you actually mean is that you will be playing your 3 executioners you have been complaining about being too expensive with the iron father and spamming all the buffs + CP on those 3 models while the rest of your army dies. 2+BS, 2+ 5++, 5+++ etc. Remmeber how bitter and hyperbolic you were about new SM being trash tier because repulsors were overcosted by 20 points because Guilliman "nerf" ?
At least this shows the clear imbalance issue more than ever before. Its bananas.. An IH executioner is at least +-100 points better than a vanilla executioner. I went there and it looks to be true. Having supplements without assorted points changes is so stupid... Don't even get me started on IH psychic powers working for vehicles according to RAWafaik from previews.
And I'm salty about the psychic power most of all because apparently my warlock can "conceal" a horde of 10 jetbikes shrieking towards the enemy at full tilt, but it cannot conceal this single wraith lord that's standing still...
6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.
Orks have more dakka (don't care)
CSM and marines and admech don't care
Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's.
and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.
Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.
6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.
When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.
Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?
The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.
Xenomancers wrote: 6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.
Orks have more dakka (don't care) CSM and marines and admech don't care Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's. and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.
Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.
6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.
When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.
Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?
The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.
*sigh*
Except it is never just -1 is it ?
Fliers alone are -2 base with LFR you can make one -3 Rangers are -2 base with alitoic Serpents with vectored engines, if advance is -2..
Infantry & bikes you can give conceal (warp spiders/shadow specters are -2 base with alitoic) so you can have a blob with 3++ and -3. Your BS2+ in reality is hitting on 4s /5s
So minus to hit modifiers all around. Obviously if you don't do any of those things and just want to play a weird backline gunline with tanks and stuff sure but then just take spirit stones to have 6+++ AND a -1 to hit... Also, not every army rocks a guilman with all reroll everything so those modifiers really count...
If you honestly think ulthwe is anywhere near as good as alitoic then I just don't know what to say.. If you read the book you'd see that the serpents/vehicles can get spirit stones and have a 6++ ANYWAY. So your army 6++ is just useless btw, Hemlock comes with it as stock. So you could just pay 10 points to have the ulthwe trait.. Ya know.. ? lol
Having been playing exclusively eldar and trying out different traits I can honestly say ulthwe does not come anywhere near close... It just doesn't.. With the amount of ROF weaponry you wont be rolling enough 6s for that to be worth while on your T3 chaff..
On wraiths though? Sure ulthwe is better as they will either be in CC or have 12" guns anyway. But is it worth to gimp your entire army? nah...
It's not terrible I suppose. With reroll all hits on 5's you are looking at 55% hits - where with the old space marine aura you were looking at about 42%. The big factor here being is a good portion of attempts where you can't reroll 3's or 4's on a -2. Resulted in a lot of attempts with very few hits. We aren't talking about very durable units otherwise ether. -1 is REALLY weak vs reroll all hits too. 75% hits is still really good.
6+FNP is a straight up undeniable 16% or 20% damage reduction depending how you look at it. Against a -1 with 6+FNP vs a -2 to hit. The damage is about the same against reroll all hits. 75% hit vs 55% hit and ignore 16% of damage. That is about the best case for minus to hits too. A -1 compared to 6+ FNP is 89% vs 75% - FNP actually wins here and it wins big big under 12" too and vs mortals and in CC. It's really hard to make a case that -1 to hit is better than 6+FNP with the prevalence of reroll all hits. It's even worse with bs2 units with rerolls which there are tons of them.
There really aren't a lot of meta units that hit on 4's normally - not anymore. -1 to hit is great against them but you just don't see them as a result so much. Not to mention the plethora or weapons that give you +1 to hit flyers (which most -2 to hits are coming from) and auto hitting weapons.
Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?
So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?
Short answer: if your opponent is happy with you using ultraironhands then why not.
Longer answer: if you have 5k painted ultramarines, love the look of them and the background as you say, then I have to question why you don't have more pride in your choice of army. If all you care about it the best & easiest wins which is the driving force for your change, then you have to acknowledge that will annoy some people. Be prepared to, rightfully, be branded as a power gaming meta chaser.
Xenomancers wrote: 6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.
Orks have more dakka (don't care)
CSM and marines and admech don't care
Custodians don't care because they all hit on 2's.
and anyone that -1 to hit is a real probably them can just close the gap or deep strike charge.
Space marines have straight up made minus to hit spam close to useless when you compare the investment. Not to mention the amount of anti air firepower a marine army is going to have with a ton of builds. With ironhands as strong as they are you can expect to see them in droves.
6+++ has becomes the best army trait to use if you have access to it. It's always on - it protects against mortals even.
When you also get additional bonus to this already great army trait I gotta call BS.
Iron hands get Tau sept/ Hawkshroud/ and Ulthwe army traits in one. Are we seriously to the point where point this out makes your statement Ludacris?
The executioner is probably overcosted by closer to 50 points too. It's just ironhands that make them actually worth those points. I wouldn't worry about the eldar man. If marines are this good you can expect a lot more out of the eldar.
as an ork player I would argue a -1 to hit affects us more than any other army and is not in the "don't care" category. outside of our mek guns most everything else of value shooting literally has their % to hit cut in half. with the change on hit to have another 1/6 chance to hit. so many people seem to think dakka dakka dakka is some magical fix to ork shooting making it reliably good. essentially 8th edition broke ork shooting and dakka dakka dakka was the bandaid to make it not literally useless. Don't get me started on pre codex BS we put up with where... "oh you have an altioc flyer or other -2 to hit... guess i just exist on the table with you while you destroy me with impunity as i cannot shoot you and all your flying units outpace my overcosted units". dakka dakka dakka just makes it literally so we have a chance to hit from these -2 to hit, but -1 to hit still makes us. even BS4+ models only suffer 1/3 loss of chance to hit vs -1 to hit.
About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.
We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?
This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.
I don't know how you don't get banned for talking such trash...
At least make an argument of some kind like..."you crazy man" "Ironhands aren't OP compared to other chapters" You'd be wrong - but at least contributing to the discussion in some way. Also...you should get out more. Nothing I am saying is even close to ludicrous. Just look at ironhands getting all the auras/best tactic/ super doctrine applies turn 1 and is basically a repeat of the ultramarines tactic with a small difference in bonus rule of reroll 1's instead of "counts as stationary".
OK, I'll bite. Here is a few reasons why:
- you don't learn, as evidenced by the frankly embarassing mess you got in over SM2.0 rumours
- you don't listen to counter argument, therefore any effort made by other posts is wasted on you
- calling you out on this, is apparently a bannable offence? 'Get out more'!? The only thing you forgot to say was your dad could beat up my dad.
If you do genuinely wish to broaden your horizons, I would recommend watching the D6 Evolution video review of both new supplements - I think there is a compelling argument that RG will be the better overall book once you factor in ACTUAL PLAYING.
Dudeface wrote:Short answer: if your opponent is happy with you using ultraironhands then why not.
Longer answer: if you have 5k painted ultramarines, love the look of them and the background as you say, then I have to question why you don't have more pride in your choice of army. If all you care about it the best & easiest wins which is the driving force for your change, then you have to acknowledge that will annoy some people. Be prepared to, rightfully, be branded as a power gaming meta chaser.
For the original question - I wouldn't be that upset but would probably mock you for it. Same with any "its clearly painted as X, but I'm running it as Y".
On the -1/FNP debate,
I agree that changes to rerolls make -1s to hit less valuable. I am however suspect that the 6+++ is that amazing. I am also not convinced you can just say "right, army wide reroll everything all the time, go". Or at least not without having a very tightly packed in castle, which brings its own problems.
As I see it Ironhands could be a gatekeeper list, but if you can kill knights, you are going to kill buffed up executioners. If you can frustrating a castle, you can probably frustrate this one.
OK, I'll bite. Here is a few reasons why:
- you don't learn, as evidenced by the frankly embarassing mess you got in over SM2.0 rumours
- you don't listen to counter argument, therefore any effort made by other posts is wasted on you
- calling you out on this, is apparently a bannable offence? 'Get out more'!? The only thing you forgot to say was your dad could beat up my dad.
If you do genuinely wish to broaden your horizons, I would recommend watching the D6 Evolution video review of both new supplements - I think there is a compelling argument that RG will be the better overall book once you factor in ACTUAL PLAYING.
All of this. The gak the beakies can pull is far and away superior to the cybork parking lot of rawritude.
Argive wrote: Ok... ok.... ok...Lets try this again.
Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?
So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?
Every army spams 2 damage weaponry. It just means the 2 wound stat isn't worth as much. This isn't exclusively a marine problem. 3+ armor not having much value is a marine problem though. The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....
Xenomancers wrote: The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....
Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.
Xenomancers wrote: The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....
Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.
Marines can't always be in cover. Space marine armies have to advance vs most opponents. Don't be niave ether. You know marines vs marines is going to be a common matchup and marines have AP out the wazzoo now. Who wins that firefight?
Xenomancers wrote: The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....
Considering the Ironstone doesnt work on infantry, and the 5++ is the equivalent of getting plonked by a disintigrator/plasma in cover, it's not a solution at all.
Marines can't always be in cover.
I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.
I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.
It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.
Dandelion wrote: Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?
Spoiler:
Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere
Is Dal'yth the light blue?
EDIT: Nope, they're green according to google images though may also be white. In short, I have no idea
At the end of the day, they are your plastic little space men and you can run them however you want, although it does seem to go against the spirit of the game.
Your complaints are quite hyperbolic, Ultras seem to be in a pretty decent spot. They might not be at the level of IHs, but to suggest that UM are unusable does them quite the disservice.
It seems you've already made up your mind about this, I'm not sure why you went through the effort of making this post.
I need to see how IH play on the table before coming to a firm conclusion, though I don't doubt they will be good. My main thoughts are:
* their alpha strike will be very strong
* their resilience is going to be overstated. They will still suffer against knights, as no matter how good a repulsor castle is, it is outranged and outgunned by a knight list. Any army should bring enough ranged threat to hurt or kill a knight in one round - if they can do that a 16w tank is not going to be a problem
* Although it is an advantage having their doctrine effective in turn 1, it also means they will get almost zero benefit from the tactical or assault doctrines. More rounded forces will see a broader spread of gains. UM for instance benefit from sitting fairly still turn 1 at range, before switching up to Tactical and going on the move for objectives. Also, UM can bring an extreme volume of AP-1 shots, which will tell in the mid to late game if played sensibly
* heavy weapons are good, but they are also concentrated in few models, especially a tank castle. Losing some of these early is a huge hindrance (and why IMO tank gunlines haven't been successful in 8th yet as well I might add)
* IH will lack board control, their armies will be small and hard hitting. Hordes or anything which can screen with early pressure is going to win the VP game.
So yeah, I think they'll be really, really good. But to the point where they're wiping the floor with everyone else? I don't see it. Other armies have enough brutal combos to hold their own. Just think of Aberrant bombs, smite spam 1ksons and so on. Also, getting 1st turn is going to be more critical to IH, when they are so heavily invested in the alpha strike game.
Just my random thoughts on the subject. As always, I will withhold judgement until I've actually played against them (more than once!).
Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.
It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.
or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.
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Insectum7 wrote: Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.
Argive wrote: Ok... ok.... ok...Lets try this again.
Have you not been complaining to no end how DMG 2+ weaponry is everywhere and that it kills marines easily and they are trash tier because of it?
So... would you rather have to roll a double 6 to stop two wounds... or have a modifier to make the shot miss in the first place? Whats the point of having ulthwe on my 1W and 2W Bikers if they will all die to dmg 2/D3 weapons?
Every army spams 2 damage weaponry. It just means the 2 wound stat isn't worth as much. This isn't exclusively a marine problem. 3+ armor not having much value is a marine problem though. The solution to this problem is not an ironhands only aura for 5++ and -1 damage....
So just competely dodge the argument... then eh? My point remains... FNP is uselss on 1W infantry or tanks when you up against dmg 2+ weapons if a minus hit modifier is on the table.. FNP sounds good but for the eldar outside of a wraith knight/ wraith guard? Nah...
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I have played some form of every major group (and most factions) in Kill Team for at this point. Strangely enough, I play far more conservatively when playing some sort of power armor with the exception of not-TS/DG Chaos Space Marines. I tend to reserve my CP for things that keep my marines alive rather than increasing their killing potential save re-rolling Injury Rolls. I am not alone in this regard in my group either.
I think it is easy enough to point out that the loss of a primaris marine or other well equipped marine unit is a significant portion of a team/army. I suppose it feels more immediate compared to losing 3 or 4 genestealer cult, guard, ork etc. units. Which might explain some of it. I also think that marine players might naturally be inclined to want a tougher army since that is something that power armor is supposed to give. With dice being dice and some of the weapons out there, it sometimes doesn't feel like marines are all that tough so players might activate seek more ways to increase their resiliency.
I do see in play marine players (including myself) waiting for a break in the enemy lines before committing. Since they aren't pouring that much into firepower the break doesn't sometimes happen and they marines are picked apart to fail to catch up in an objective game.
I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.
It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.
or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.
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Insectum7 wrote: Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.
UM have a Strat that allows multiple units to fire overwatch, Tau style, so I feel covered on the overwatch front. Double wounds for degradation is pretty good, although I get Chronus who always shoots at BS2+ and ignores degradation, so that's good. UM have a Strat that allows me to assign a Doctrine to a unit, so if I really need AP-4 Plasma Devastators I can do that, too. +1 Ld is can be handy because big units take advantage of strats better, and we got some good ones.
I heard there was an entire chapter that could be always considered in cover as long as they don't come too close though, they must be broken op compared to a new choice for a 5++ aura.
It's ok, they only get overwatch on a 6+ so they're brokenly underpowered.
or have a 6+++ and count as double wounds for degradation. Funny how you have to omit rules to make what you are saying sound reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Yeah, the UM "Tactical Doctrine count as not moving when shooting" is just crazy, crazy good. I'll take that over a 6+++ all day evey day and then some.
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
You do realize that you aren't taking it over a 6+++.
You are taking it over a 6+++ overwatch on 5's and count as double wounds for degradation and turn 1 bonus to ignore heavy weapons penalties and reroll 1's. Just so you can fall back and shoot with some tanks at a -1 and have a useless leadship bonus and shoot better with some bolter weapons...AKA useless. Heavy weapons starting turn 1 is a way better ability. Not only because it's turn 1. The heavy weapons are more deadly.
Raven Guard don’t give a good goddamn about a damage chart that doesn’t affect their bread and butter units. They’re an infantry army, their entire Codex is built around them. Similarly, permacover and a -1 to be hit are faaaaaaaar superior to a 6+++
So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.
Dudeface wrote: So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.
No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.
Dudeface wrote: So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.
No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.
OK, can you provide an example list to illustrate why they are going to be so much stronger? This is a genuine question.
I see a lot of doom mongering about leviathans and executioners etc, but those units are really expensive. By the time you have two executioners, a leviathan, feirros, lt, and min troop choices (3 scouts) thats 1310 points! Your board control is tiny, you're turtled up round a single buff character and your exposed to enemy alpha strike. If they get cheap assaults or 1st turn assaults you're dead as a proverbial flightless bird.
OK, can you provide an example list to illustrate why they are going to be so much stronger? This is a genuine question.
I see a lot of doom mongering about leviathans and executioners etc, but those units are really expensive. By the time you have two executioners, a leviathan, feirros, lt, and min troop choices (3 scouts) thats 1310 points! Your board control is tiny, you're turtled up round a single buff character and your exposed to enemy alpha strike. If they get cheap assaults or 1st turn assaults you're dead as a proverbial flightless bird.
Assaulting IH is unhealthy. They overwatch with 5+ Furthermore, their best units have either fly so can withdraw without penalty, or are dreadnoughts which can fight back. And you don't need to go all in with vehicles, sure, their rules benefits vehicles the most, but they're good with almost all units. They're the only chapter which got three part tactic, and all three of those rules are very strong. I am not saying they're unbeatable, merely that they're easily the best marine chapter.
I get that, but UM have the triple extra overwatch shots, plus fall back and shoot already.
If IH aren't investing in lots of vehicles, where are they getting their extra heavy weapons from? They're also NOT then getting ap-1 rapid fire and assault weapons, which means their infantry is fighting like it's 2018.
There are a lot of complex interactions, which I think will surface when the shock wear's off.
I was serious btw, have a go at writing a competitive IH list to make the most of their doctrine, I think it's a lot more restrictive than you think it will be.
Basicly Iron Hands are good if you want a single hard vehicle squad but they're pretty inflexable. Don't get me wrong if I'm playing a scerio type game where the objective is "hold point A" Iron Hands are going to be a great choice. but a game enviroment that requires flexability and mobility? they'll likely suffer. not irredeemably so but to a degree where another chapter will beat them
Defensive Focus costs 2CP. IH get 5+ overwatch for free all the time. And stalker bolt rifles and scout sniper rifles are both heavy weapons you can give to your troops.
And I'm really not gonna bother writing a full list. Sorry. Though from top of my head I think double battalion with Feiros, a tech marine, a lieutenant and a librarian, intercessors and maybe sniper scouts as troops would probably be a good starting point. I guess some infiltrators for troops could work as well is you are afraid of deepstrike. That's, what 800ish points? Then add other units as needed. Favouring vehicles of course. I think repulsors, flyers and dreadnoughts can all work with this.
I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.
I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.
The only "significant durability" that IH get is in the deathball with Papa Cybork and the Blarney Stone hauler, which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of shenanigans.
Crimson wrote: Defensive Focus costs 2CP. IH get 5+ overwatch for free all the time. And stalker bolt rifles and scout sniper rifles are both heavy weapons you can give to your troops.
And I'm really not gonna bother writing a full list. Sorry. Though from top of my head I think double battalion with Feiros, a tech marine, a lieutenant and a librarian, intercessors and maybe sniper scouts as troops would probably be a good starting point. I guess some infiltrators for troops could work as well is you are afraid of deepstrike. That's, what 800ish points? Then add other units as needed. Favouring vehicles of course. I think repulsors, flyers and dreadnoughts can all work with this.
I just do not really see other chapters being sufficiently better at offence or mobility that the IH that they could overcome the significant advantage the IH has in the form of durability. I'd be super glad to be wrong though. I am personally not planning to play IH (probabaly...) as I don't like their playstyle.
I don't see how Iron Hands are anything special offensively.
Rerolling 1s to hit is still a captain buff, right? I don't need IH to do that.
Iron Hands trade all the extra durability buffs if they want to be mobile.
Seriously, I think you should try and actually write a list and think how it plays before you say one more silly thing.
You fundamentally cannot be both mobile and in a castle around Feirros at the same time. These little meltdowns over nothing are so embarrassing!
Well, they can move and fire their heavy weapons without a penalty and their heavy weapons do not need to bubble around captain for rerolls. And they still retain their FNP and vehicles suffering less from damage. This offers mobility if that is needed. They're better at this than most other chapters.
As for offence, Feirros can boos BS of one unit and the librarian can boost shooting as well. And of course durability also improves offence. Longer you stay alive, longer you can fight at the best profile, more damage you do.
And yes, and IH vehicle that has to move from character bubble gets much weaker. And when it is weaker, it is still better than vehicle from any other chapter. This is what you don't seem to be getting.
What do the other chapters have? They do not have particularly amazing offensive buffs either. They just don't have defensive ones at all.
I am not having an meltdown. But I will be really surprised if the IH will not be the clear dominant choice same way than Alaitoc was for the Eldar.
Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.
Eh. The game should be played with a lot of terrain. It is just that most marine armies are shooting based, and the terrain affects them equally. (Except the IF, but we don't know what their supplement does.)
Crimson wrote: Well, they can move and fire their heavy weapons without a penalty and their heavy weapons do not need to bubble around captain for rerolls. And they still retain their FNP and vehicles suffering less from damage. This offers mobility if that is needed. They're better at this than most other chapters.
As for offence, Feirros can boos BS of one unit and the librarian can boost shooting as well. And of course durability also improves offence. Longer you stay alive, longer you can fight at the best profile, more damage you do.
And yes, and IH vehicle that has to move from character bubble gets much weaker. And when it is weaker, it is still better than vehicle from any other chapter. This is what you don't seem to be getting.
What do the other chapters have? They do not have particularly amazing offensive buffs either. They just don't have defensive ones at all.
I am not having an meltdown. But I will be really surprised if the IH will not be the clear dominant choice same way than Alaitoc was for the Eldar.
IH are definitely strong and have some very obvious synergies, I agree.
What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.
I think some of their abilities are being massively under valued at the moment.
Put it like this, I don't think IH gain much offensively over other chapters in turn 1. Which then raises the question, how strong are their defensive buffs? Pretty strong, and definitely better than other marines. However, not enough to resist leafblower guard armies, knight soup and so on. I just don't think their extra resilience is going to offset their low model count and static gameplay when it comes to real world battles on boards which have some actual terrain on.
If players think Iron Hands are going to be good that is fine. I would actually like to see some Iron Hands armies all painted up with neat cybernetic customizations more anyways. Up until the new codex, I more or less forgot they were first founding. I could have probably named nearly dozen later founding chapters well before I could remember the Iron Hands existing. So I kinda like how they are getting talked about so much.
Unfortunately, the topic of this thread is the opposite of seeing more armies painted as Iron Hands. I imagine a lot of marine players are going give up on the chapter they like for the easy power of Iron Hands. So I kinda think I am going to see Iron Hands in every color but black. Which is a shame that game which looks far nicer than it actually plays has players focusing on the play rather than the looks.
Battalion+5 CP HQ Primaris Leutenent MC Autobolt Rifle (Bellecos Bolt Rifle)(-1)
Tech Marine - Storm Bolter (Seal of oath or vengeance of Ultramar)(-1)(Hero of the chapter - Bonus WL trait Master of Strategy (or if they have a ton of snipers I'll give him a defensive WL trait to protect seal of oath)(-1)
Elites
Priamris Ancient - Bolt Rifle ( Standard of Macragge (-1))
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Battleforged +3 CP
This is a pretty strong ultras list I have been playing. This list is so much better as Ironhands. You just change all the marines to stalker bolters except maybe the 10 man with bolt rifles. You replace calgar with ferois and take a regular libby ether with a JP or a primaris one for an additional wound. That saves you about 120 points. That is enough to even a chapter master into the mix. The counters as stationary bonus for ultras (compared to ironhands) is really only useful for bolt rifles which are interior to ABR now except with rapid fire stratagem and on agressors (hate to say it though - agressors still aren't any good even with the ability to move and shoot twice. It's 24" threat range.) So turn 1 you aren't double tapping - then they go focused and die. Ironhands agressors are actually better - because you need to advance turn 1 anyways to get in range (and they can't shoot twice if they advance) Then turn 2 ironhands agressors are in better position to double tap and they have much better overwatch (which overwatch is always double shooting now) and the 6+ fnp averages them another wound almost - could be wrong but can't any marine chapter change a single unit to the tactical doctrine? don't have the codex in front of me. The ironhands super doctrine is the better choice for literally every heavy weapon because it stacks with the AP bonus. You just get your anti infantry from heavy weapons...which is not at all hard to do. bolters FTL. It's hard to conceive even how the same rules team could make these 2 super doctrine rules and think (yeah that is balanced) Turn 1 completely stackable vs turn 2 and varied AP bonus. Just based on the weapon choices even if I could start my whole army in tactical doctrine it would still be inferior because heavy weapons are just better than bolters.
It's really too bad aggressors can't go into the new shiny transport we got - that would actually make a huge difference.
So much for ultras being flexible. They aren't. If you really want to max out tactical doctrine you have to bring mostly inferior units. I am having the most successes with this list because of my close combat power and all the free attacks I get from relics and staying in the dev doctrine for lots of str 5 ap-2 shooting.
Ironhands are just gonna blow you off the table with units I can't protect.
Just remove the 6 dreads and 5 intercessors from my list and insert 2 exectuioners and a levi dread plus all the OP ironahnds relics and I really don't see how you could lose unless you went up against a list with 20 lascannons.
What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.
RG are kinda weird. Yes, they have some really nasty tricks. Still, their bonuses are kinda confused. Their super doctrine works in tactical, and is basically good for sniper weapons... almost all of which are heavy. They have tricks to get close to the enemy... but their chapter tactic requires to keep the distance. But yeah, if I had to choose one other chapter that would have chance defeating the IH, it would definitely be them. It is just that I'm not sure that they're nearly as universally good versus variety of foes as the IH are.
Put it like this, I don't think IH gain much offensively over other chapters in turn 1. Which then raises the question, how strong are their defensive buffs? Pretty strong, and definitely better than other marines. However, not enough to resist leafblower guard armies, knight soup and so on. I just don't think their extra resilience is going to offset their low model count and static gameplay when it comes to real world battles on boards which have some actual terrain on.
Perhaps. But then agian, if the IH cannot compete agianst those armies, I really don't think any other marine chapter can either.
Furthermore, I am not so concerned about any theoretical top tournament performance. I predict that because IH have a playstyle which is both super easy and super effective they will become really frustrating in a casual environment. People just get tired of banging their head against a regenerating wall.
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.
I disagree with your above statement that most games of 40k are played on planet bowling ball. Most games are played either at someones house between a small gaming group or at a local gaming club and both of those groups will eventually have a ton of terrain
(I personally have enough to fill two tables with almost a third of the board having something solid like a large hill, building of all sizes, and other things like landing pads, etc....)
I agree most large tournaments generally can't come up with that much terrain but that's clearly not how GW envisions people playing, I mean look at any white dwarf battle.
That being said I'm a bit leery about a few thing in each supplement being to strong/obvious choice.
Battalion+5 CP HQ Primaris Leutenent MC Autobolt Rifle (Bellecos Bolt Rifle)(-1)
Tech Marine - Storm Bolter (Seal of oath or vengeance of Ultramar)(-1)(Hero of the chapter - Bonus WL trait Master of Strategy (or if they have a ton of snipers I'll give him a defensive WL trait to protect seal of oath)(-1)
Elites
Priamris Ancient - Bolt Rifle ( Standard of Macragge (-1))
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Redemptor Dread - Onslaughts and storm bolters and rocket pods
Battleforged +3 CP
This is a pretty strong ultras list I have been playing. This list is so much better as Ironhands. You just change all the marines to stalker bolters except maybe the 10 man with bolt rifles. You replace calgar with ferois and take a regular libby ether with a JP or a primaris one for an additional wound. That saves you about 120 points. That is enough to even a chapter master into the mix. The counters as stationary bonus for ultras (compared to ironhands) is really only useful for bolt rifles which are interior to ABR now except with rapid fire stratagem and on agressors (hate to say it though - agressors still aren't any good even with the ability to move and shoot twice. It's 24" threat range.) So turn 1 you aren't double tapping - then they go focused and die. Ironhands agressors are actually better - because you need to advance turn 1 anyways to get in range (and they can't shoot twice if they advance) Then turn 2 ironhands agressors are in better position to double tap and they have much better overwatch (which overwatch is always double shooting now) and the 6+ fnp averages them another wound almost - could be wrong but can't any marine chapter change a single unit to the tactical doctrine? don't have the codex in front of me. The ironhands super doctrine is the better choice for literally every heavy weapon because it stacks with the AP bonus. You just get your anti infantry from heavy weapons...which is not at all hard to do. bolters FTL. It's hard to conceive even how the same rules team could make these 2 super doctrine rules and think (yeah that is balanced) Turn 1 completely stackable vs turn 2 and varied AP bonus. Just based on the weapon choices even if I could start my whole army in tactical doctrine it would still be inferior because heavy weapons are just better than bolters.
It's really too bad aggressors can't go into the new shiny transport we got - that would actually make a huge difference.
So much for ultras being flexible. They aren't. If you really want to max out tactical doctrine you have to bring mostly inferior units. I am having the most successes with this list because of my close combat power and all the free attacks I get from relics and staying in the dev doctrine for lots of str 5 ap-2 shooting.
Ironhands are just gonna blow you off the table with units I can't protect.
Just remove the 6 dreads and 5 intercessors from my list and insert 2 exectuioners and a levi dread plus all the OP ironahnds relics and I really don't see how you could lose unless you went up against a list with 20 lascannons.
so you run a list where the majority of your army are TANKS and you're suprised and upset that they work better as iron hands..... really?
well no gak sherlock! but what if you run less tanks and more infantry? hellblasters and agressors instead of tanks? just for example.
Management would like to request that Knights and Titans refrain from stomping on the Emperor's Blue Shoes - getting the suede on the armour was a nightmare for Him.
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.
So what you're implying here is that the LVO (and other ITC events) aren't using enough terrain?
I feel like some marine players often have this innate fear over losing units, and gravitate towards resiliency bonuses. But rarely does that work out, imo.
I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. I have played some form of every major group (and most factions) in Kill Team for at this point. Strangely enough, I play far more conservatively when playing some sort of power armor with the exception of not-TS/DG Chaos Space Marines. I tend to reserve my CP for things that keep my marines alive rather than increasing their killing potential save re-rolling Injury Rolls. I am not alone in this regard in my group either.
I think it is easy enough to point out that the loss of a primaris marine or other well equipped marine unit is a significant portion of a team/army. I suppose it feels more immediate compared to losing 3 or 4 genestealer cult, guard, ork etc. units. Which might explain some of it. I also think that marine players might naturally be inclined to want a tougher army since that is something that power armor is supposed to give. With dice being dice and some of the weapons out there, it sometimes doesn't feel like marines are all that tough so players might activate seek more ways to increase their resiliency.
I do see in play marine players (including myself) waiting for a break in the enemy lines before committing. Since they aren't pouring that much into firepower the break doesn't sometimes happen and they marines are picked apart to fail to catch up in an objective game.
I see this often playing against marine players. The wait to commit and hoping to break a hole in the line. However, against a good opponent who see's that, you won't see that break and they'll pick apart what they see you trying to protect the most. Not units you want to decoy with because mostly speaking marine units don'thave good decoys with the cost of the units. Why ? It makes it that much harder to push a break in the line when you are trying to turtle up to limit losses. You aren't spending things on offensive press when its all going towards safety.
The thing is, everything in this game is sold cheap, or sold hard but its all gonna die. The most effective marine lists and players don't hold it back, they go in when needed, settle on a plan and execute and make the hole even if its not already there as other wise you just sit back and get torn apart waiting for the break that may never happen. Marines can't play the late game reasonably well as they will get ripped apart in attrition, doesn't matter if they eat up hundreds of guard if hundreds yet remain and they have taken 20 or more expensive marines.
I wouldn't play iron hands most likely, and actually kind of see more good in the use of say Ultramarines because marine should shock assault. You can't wait for the battle to come to you, or to wait for an opening, Marines make the opening. They kick that door down and lower the boot, they are shock troops and function best in the thick of it. If you can out plan your opponent and hit him so hard he has to try and protect himself he'll make mistakes and you just have to keep pressing. You may not always win, but turtling won't always win for you either. However if you set the pace of the battle and pick where to engage you can pick your hill to live or die on as it were.
Now I'm sure people will disagree with this assessment but marines are one of the armies that I'm never cautious with as they need to get the game in hand quick as they don't have the numbers to last, gotta do damage fast and engage quick. The more elite the marine list, the more this is needed. This is where I think IH will suffer. As I'd not be afraid of them doing some damage to me, I'd outnumber them by a large degree but once the castle starts to crack they've lost the edge. Just pick your section of wall to crumble and tear it down while you're still advancing, let them eat the chaff and by the end of the game they won't have the numbers left to turn the tide and it'll end up being a foreseen outcome. I'd be more concerned of the Marine force putting pressure on me and forcing me to respond and actually plan out my advances.
Basically, I'm in favor of high aggro marine tactics. Worse comes to worse at least you'll know the outcome faster than a slow bleed through attrition, and probably have had a good deal of excitement and close calls along the way, the best case you surprise the heck out of who you are playing against or set the pace. You won't win by a ton most likely but victory is victory clean or messy, it's a win. I usually like it messy, as Marines at least.
The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.
Dudeface wrote: So the long and short is - different chapters promote different play styles through different units? Colour me shocked. Iron hands better with vehicles, Xeno obsessed with repulsors = makes sense.
No, Iron Hands is massively better for vehicles, and still really good for other units. I really don't see how other chapters can compete with this.
Well IH maybe good, but RG are going to be a lot more annoying and feels bad man to play against, specially with older armies. And some people really like to play armies that make others feel bad. IH are just a solid to good army, but it doesn't make the opponent unable to play his army, or make him buy new models for it, because the old ways of playing are no longer valid.
Xenomancers wrote: 6+++ is a lot better now with reroll all hits auras being all over the place. -1 to hit at 12" has become pretty weak.
so you think Ulthwe is better than Alaitoc.Eldar players and tournament results would beg to differ.
But hey, its your opinion and your choice how to build your army. I promise not to care about any of your usual whining if you somehow do not auto-win all your games because you have misunderstood what is actually good in the game.
What do you think about the RG abilities though? The infiltration shenanigans, teleporting characters, advance and charge, pre game move with advance... they are going to be absolutely unprecedented as an early pressure army I think. Putting a blob of aggressors in your face turn 1, supported by 10 VV with th/sh etc. They will take apart an IH castle in no time, whilst having massive board control.
RG are kinda weird. Yes, they have some really nasty tricks. Still, their bonuses are kinda confused. Their super doctrine works in tactical, and is basically good for sniper weapons... almost all of which are heavy. They have tricks to get close to the enemy... but their chapter tactic requires to keep the distance. But yeah, if I had to choose one other chapter that would have chance defeating the IH, it would definitely be them. It is just that I'm not sure that they're nearly as universally good versus variety of foes as the IH are.
I think Raven Guard still have lots of options after list building and all the way through the game. They can kite an opponent and play the mission or they can play an aggressive game putting an opponent under massive pressure. In all cases they are strong at picking apart the glue that holds the opposing army together, whereas other factions might tend towards trying to simply blow opposition off the table by sheer force of mathammer. A well designed RG list can play differently depending on the mission (in tournament sets where the missions meaningfully differ from one another), the terrain and the opposing list. Good players should value that flexibility very highly. When an opponent sees a RG army list they do not immediately know how it is going to play through the game, they must stay on their toes and their player skill will be challenged more than it would by a more predictable army list.
In the hands of a less skilled player Raven Guard can be a liability, giving you meaningful choices about how to play on the table also gives you meaningful opportunities to make the wrong choice and throw the game away. Iron Hands are definitely the safer choice for the player who is liable to make poor decisions on the table, it presents you (and your opponent) with fewer tactical challenges.
Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.
Ding ding ding. Successors running mechanized lists with dreadnought and flyer support are where IH are going to shine.
Your inability to build a list that utilizes the Smurf super-doctrine is a statement on your list building skills, not the efficacy of said super-doctrine.
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Xenomancers wrote: This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball.
Let me preface this by saying: I would have absolutely no issue with anyone playing models with rules different to their paint scheme, unless it was particularly difficult to tell what was what, and they were cherrypicking units. A painted army is often better than I expect, and for that, if you have blue guys, dressed as ultras, but you want them to act like Iron hands - Go for it.
That out of the way, lemme get anecdotal and misty-eyed. I've been playing Black Templars for about 5 years now. We got models (sword bretheren) that have had their rules taken from us. We've had some pretty cruddy, not-the-worst-but-still-low-tier rules, chapter tactics relics etc. It wasn't until the end of 7th ed., when Marine Formations were pretty hellishly strong, that we even got a formation, only months later to have 8th drop - and even then, odds were, you'd just be feeding your enemy kill points, anywho. That's not to say the army was irredeemable, but...
...I never won a single game with my templars. And that remains true to this day.
And I love them for it. I play a massed, footslog-heavy crusading list, focused on short-ranged firefighting and getting into CC. Sure, I lose a lot of those gunfights, and often times once I get into CC, I get pasted by something that's just straight fightier than me. I wouldn't change a thing. I love my templars, I love their aesthetic, the fluff and the theme. Often, it's those suicidal charges into the jaws of death, through hails of enemy bullets that make for the most fun moments ingame. When, after putting up with unending punishment, to see my marines cut a swathe through the enemy lines, or fell a great foe hand-to-hand, to suddenly see the tide turn, and a glimmer of victory shine on the far side of the tabletop? There's no better feeling in 40k, in my opinion, than running a fluffy army that you love, and then having a close, exciting game and then nearly winning it. (except maybe winning, but so far only my admech can do that...) An army doesn't have to be on the very cutting edge of the most optimized meta to be fun. Hell, it doesn't even have to be all that good, and you can still get some surprisingly close games in. Sure, you might not get to trounce that tourney-topping, meta-shattering, soup netlist from hell, but like, sounds like you already have a pretty tough army, with all that considered. A bit of bad dice rolling (a la myself) from your opponent, and you could probably very easily get a win against a list like that. Take it from someone who has more than most marine chapters - a single upgrade sprue, 3 characters and a special unit - Ultramarines are absolutely spoiled for choice in terms of both modeling opportunities and strategic flexibility. Sure, other armies may be able to do some things better than you can. No army, in the entire citadel range, can do everything in the way an Ultramarine is able.
You bought marines. You painted them as Ultramarines. Sounds like you played them as Ultramarines, too. Surely you must have some attachment to the chapter you play as? Why the sudden change of heart? As a gamer, I'd say - sure, play them as you'd like, let's set up a match and have a laugh.
But as a Space Marine? As a loyal son of Rogal Dorn? As a Black Templar, who's legacy traces back to the seige of Terra, and the defense of the Emperor upon the very steps of his sacred palace?
How dare you stand with that emblazoned upon yourself, and proclaim to have been a son of Guilliman. Have some pride! When the Empire was ashes, who rebuilt it? When the legions cried out for leadership, who answered their calls? Who's knowledge of combat, strategy and warfare created the Codex Astartes? When Calgar's arms were ripped off by the Xeno foe, did he waver, did he cringe, turn tail and last out his days on a battleship, directing orbital strikes from the safety of a command bridge? NO, SIR! He got massive metal fists with guns on them!
So now, you too, find yourself up against the wall. What will it be? Throw in the towel, and abandon your chapter? Or are you gonna get some massive metal fists with guns on them, too, and punch the everliving bejaysus out of whatever dares challenge the might of Ultramar?
Management would like to request that Knights and Titans refrain from stomping on the Emperor's Blue Shoes - getting the suede on the armour was a nightmare for Him.
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands are going to, that being said, proably be OP on planet bowling ball. but in an enviroment with signfcigent terrain and cover, they'll certainly be less so.
This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball. I've played at LVO - I play lots of ITC events. Except for dumb rules like magic boxes there is nothing significant about it. To be honest a defensive powerhouse deathball benefits a lot from your entire army not being able to focus down 1 unit.
So what you're implying here is that the LVO (and other ITC events) aren't using enough terrain?
No thats not what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with the terrain situation they use - the special rule where 1st floor blocks LOS is probably too much (IMO it should be you cant shoot through buildings but you CAN shoot into them). Terrain should be varied from game to game IMO. Some should be an open feild - some should be city fights - some should be fought on moons with lots of craters and stuff. Suggesting every game should have lots of terrain is just someone who doesn't like playing a shooting game and should probably just play AOS.
Maybe IH lists without ferrus and the stone that point on MSU and mobility will be quite strong, but parking lots? Lol, those are hardly going to be a concern.
Ding ding ding. Successors running mechanized lists with dreadnought and flyer support are where IH are going to shine.
Your inability to build a list that utilizes the Smurf super-doctrine is a statement on your list building skills, not the efficacy of said super-doctrine.
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Xenomancers wrote: This is irrelevant. The game is mostly played on planet bowling ball.
Not even close to reality.
Its funny because I'm speaking of experience in actual ITC events like LVO. It is reality. Youll get a large LOS blocker in the middle of the table and a few in each deployment zone and probably 2 more. I'm just gonna shut up about it until evidence backs my points 100% like what usually happens. Like when I predict space marines were going to be one of the worst armies in 40k in 8th and it held true for over 2 years. LOL. Ironhands are going to be the only competitive choice based on numbers.
Its funny because I'm speaking of experience in actual ITC events like LVO. It is reality. Youll get a large LOS blocker in the middle of the table and a few in each deployment zone and probably 2 more. I'm just gonna shut up about it until evidence backs my points 100% like what usually happens. Like when I predict space marines were going to be one of the worst armies in 40k in 8th and it held true for over 2 years. LOL. Ironhands are going to be the only competitive choice based on numbers.
"Like what usually happens" is that you're proven wrong, and then proceed to launch immediately into another hysterical tirade about the next rule that catches your eye. I cannot wait for the Salamanders and Imperial Fists to drop so we can see you blow your stack about them too.
Also major ROFLcoptering at the notion that LVO represents anything other than LVO. But good on you for telling the entire planet that they're playing 40k wrong.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
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Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
I'm not saying Iron Hands aren't great because they are. I intend to play them. I do still maintain though that the Ultramrines have some great options and it's wrong to so heavily write them off just because Iron Hands have some other strengths. Both can be good and used different ways. One may overall be better than the other (as is almost always the case), but that doesn't mean that the supposedly inferior option is complete garbage without merit.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
I'm not saying Iron Hands aren't great because they are. I intend to play them. I do still maintain though that the Ultramrines have some great options and it's wrong to so heavily write them off just because Iron Hands have some other strengths. Both can be good and used different ways. One may overall be better than the other (as is almost always the case), but that doesn't mean that the supposedly inferior option is complete garbage without merit.
You are on dakka, either it's op or not considered at all.
Especially in marine dexes.
The point remains, at least in my mind, if your whole plan for a marine list is to castle up it feels like it'll end up a DoA strategy. Other armies do such things better and will punish it hard and once that castle of power crumbles, you have nothing left to fall back on aside from some troops which against some armies all that D 2 means little, it's just overkill at the sacrifice of rate of fire.
I don't know but if I'm changing my army around, when I'm already all modeled and painted as one chapter just to struggle and try to be head of the middle of the pack, just doesn't seem worth it to me. Unless we are saying IH will become the next list to beat, which I am not thinking will be the case despite how good it looks for marines.
If anything, I imagine multi colored IH will become the bane of semi casual play groups as more relaxed players just get super tired of seeing IH dug in parking lots.
You know, that kind of play style everyone so loves from IG lists.
The proposed Iron Hands list appears to just double down on the aura deathball, which is a tired play style to say the least. And big vehicles are still too easy to counter with heavy AT fire.
AngryAngel80 wrote: The point remains, at least in my mind, if your whole plan for a marine list is to castle up it feels like it'll end up a DoA strategy. Other armies do such things better and will punish it hard and once that castle of power crumbles, you have nothing left to fall back on aside from some troops which against some armies all that D 2 means little, it's just overkill at the sacrifice of rate of fire.
I don't know but if I'm changing my army around, when I'm already all modeled and painted as one chapter just to struggle and try to be head of the middle of the pack, just doesn't seem worth it to me. Unless we are saying IH will become the next list to beat, which I am not thinking will be the case despite how good it looks for marines.
If anything, I imagine multi colored IH will become the bane of semi casual play groups as more relaxed players just get super tired of seeing IH dug in parking lots.
You know, that kind of play style everyone so loves from IG lists.
Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.
F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.
Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.
As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.
Which is why I think and say other lists do it better and with less cause for worry so its all this angst and front running to be the top of the marine pile when really it'll just be the foothill to someone elses mountain top.
Edit: Oh trust me, the re roll one isn't lost on me. I just think the weakness lies in relying on single target, or even dual very expensive targets to do most of your heavy lifting. It makes me feel un easy, but then I mostly play guard so I like to operate on the quantity has a quality all its own tactic. Flooding out reasonably hard hitting tanks in quantity I feel is safer to fill more that MSU of quality as opposed to just deathstars. I'd like to see how the deathstar holds up to some shadowswords though. Better hope for some hot invuln rolls I guess.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Which is why I think and say other lists do it better and with less cause for worry so its all this angst and front running to be the top of the marine pile when really it'll just be the foothill to someone elses mountain top.
It still will be annoying as feth for the casual meta.
Until that one wierdo with enough arty and screens show up to Rain on the Parade of the ih player.
Yeah, well the messed up thing is. People hate that play style with IG, I don't see why they'll love it with IH. It'll get old, someone will rage and then spank it hard with a list that does it better then you'll hear IH bandwagoners complain how marines are garbage again. I think we've seen this movie before.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yeah, well the messed up thing is. People hate that play style with IG, I don't see why they'll love it with IH. It'll get old, someone will rage and then spank it hard with a list that does it better then you'll hear IH bandwagoners complain how marines are garbage again. I think we've seen this movie before.
He marines are garbage, just not the baseline marines this time.
Altough as a csm player it is quite agrivating to see the vast improvements that get handed out like candy whilest your own dex literally had and still has the same issues aswell and got nothing fixed.
As for the 5++ aura so many seem to fear, dont bother it ain't coming into play.
The FNP will though.
But FNP is so much better in many cases that that shouldn't come as a surprise.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
I cannot agree more. Ultramarines are extremely powerful because of their flexibility.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
I cannot agree more. Ultramarines are extremely powerful because of their flexibility.
agreed, Ultramarines aren't going to be a point click win force, but rather they're going to be a flexable force for the seasoned commander, whose strength will lie in adaptability. I suspect Ultramarines will be popular for tournies, partiuclarly in enviroments where the Meta is fluid.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
I have to question what games your playing that your not putting damage into your opponents turn 1, even in CA missions all 3 of my armies are doing atleast 300 points of damage/off the table turn 1 and I tend to build towards durability over pure alpha stike lists.
Ultramarines have a strategum tool box yes, but lets take that strategum you called out if your not allowed to overwatch what's charging it doesn't matter as you still can't overwatch. Some of the other codex supplements got effectively 1 unit FLY via a strategum
The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.
The other Iron Hands don't have is stick rendered redundant or actually as some were arguing making a FLY unit worse.
Also as for your stand out Ultramarines unit of agressors yeah they work well as Ultramarines but they've still got some way to go to being a problem unit. All Ultramarines do is take them from a unit you play around into the will need to kill them at some point.
Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.
F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.
Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.
As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.
I think that's a poor example - the Purge trait applies to everything.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.
Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.
Why are UM only hitting on a 5+ after falling back?
Also one of their Warlord traits allows nearby units to Fall Back and fire without penalty.
-1 for fall back per the trait, your not seriously saying take an anti -1 to hit warlord trait are you?
Moving and shooting a heavy -1 or counts as moving at best if you have a rapid fire weapon as scions doesn't apply if you fall back
That combines for -2 self inflicted, if people are charging your troops in my experiance they are either dead or you are rarely does my infanty need to fallback and shoot it's generally dreadnaughts and tanks that are trying to gain anything from the trait.
The fall back and shooting, yeah because hitting on often a 5+ at best is so much better than just over watching on a 5&6.
Why are UM only hitting on a 5+ after falling back?
Also one of their Warlord traits allows nearby units to Fall Back and fire without penalty.
-1 for fall back per the trait, your not seriously saying take an anti -1 to hit warlord trait are you?
Moving and shooting a heavy -1 or counts as moving at best if you have a rapid fire weapon as scions doesn't apply if you fall back
That combines for -2 self inflicted, if people are charging your troops in my experiance they are either dead or you are rarely does my infanty need to fallback and shoot it's generally dreadnaughts and tanks that are trying to gain anything from the trait.
I can upgrade a second character with a second Warlord trait if I want. That one is on the table for candidates.
If you play reasonably, your Heavy Weapons don't have to move to get out of 1" from the opponent when falling back. One of the benefits of larger squads is that extra buffer.
Otherwise I can also chance a litany if I need it. Theoretically I can fire heavies after fallback on a 2+ to hit.
A number of Dreadnoughts (since you mention them) start at a 2+ to begin with.
There's also the Big Guns Never Tire Strat that allows a vehicle to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.
Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.
F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.
Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.
As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.
I think that's a poor example - the Purge trait applies to everything.
This applies only to heavy weapons.
And the purge trait has a precondition and only on a target that must be met.
Your point?
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
That's definitely one thing I'll say about Ultramarines: they have THE best Agressors, bar none. They're almost comparable to everyone else's Centurions.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.
Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
My proposed ironhands list would have literally 1 primary weapon with a range of 24 or less (the levi dread) Troops have 36" range and most anti infantry firepower is coming out at 24-30. Plus every units can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue.
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
proably, and after all the complaining the small part of me who thinks life tends to be full of amusing little suprises thinks that Ultramarines will end up being the tourny winning list
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.
Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
My proposed ironhands list would have literally 1 primary weapon with a range of 24 or less (the levi dread) Troops have 36" range and most anti infantry firepower is coming out at 24-30. Plus every units can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue.
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?[/spoiler]
I don't remember any of those lists you name ever placing at a GT heat, but i can't find the results now, so maybe it happened and i just don't remember.
Also, what do you mean by "Consistently winning" when we have 4 tournaments per year (the 4 heats) and in the time span between them the meta changes quite a lot?
I hope that you are not basing your opinion on 40k stats or BCP app, because those do not register standard 40k games.
Actually, games in Europe are just not registered, so i have no way to convince you and you have no way to prove me wrong...this is quite a problem...
The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
We are absolutely going to see histrionics related to Dorn's boys. And I am fully prepared to lambaste all of it.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
We are absolutely going to see histrionics related to Dorn's boys. And I am fully prepared to lambaste all of it.
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Unrban Conquest is only fun if your going to actually recost ever weapon for high BS models, paying a 30% points premium for a weapon which then both spend 90% of the game hitting on 6's only isn't fun or balanced unless you are the one paying the cheapest points.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
At the end of the day it's you that has to be happy with your choices, do you value the background fluff of the game at all?
Do you bother to paint your army at all?
Do you use terrain or books and cans?
Does the specific paint scheme you chose not conflict with the rules you want?
Are you being internally consistent?
Seems like you are the one that loses out by proxying your Ultramarines. If you have friends that will play you then who cares? I wouldn't play you, but I don't care about that and probably you don't either. It's on you, do you feel proud of your choices?
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
Quite easily. But you're still ranting on about how a 5+ overwatch without a FTGG component is somehow the pinnacle of game breakingness. So I'm not exactly worried about your opinion on your opinions.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
There's only one mission that requires characters to score. It leads to some very interesting play (and hilarious counterplay when both armies snipe out all the characters so you're scrambling for Linebreaker at endgame).
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
Quite easily. But you're still ranting on about how a 5+ overwatch without a FTGG component is somehow the pinnacle of game breakingness. So I'm not exactly worried about your opinion on your opinions.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
There's only one mission that requires characters to score. It leads to some very interesting play (and hilarious counterplay when both armies snipe out all the characters so you're scrambling for Linebreaker at endgame).
Regards the different supplements I actually hope they all round each other out. Iron hands have a character lead tank bubble, raven guard snipe out the characters easily or imp fists do extra vehicle damage. Imp fists and raven guard have it's of expensive infantry, ultras infantry chews through these. Ultras are also primarily infantry but lose out on the vehicle front, giving iron hands an advantage. Etc.
Regards the different supplements I actually hope they all round each other out. Iron hands have a character lead tank bubble, raven guard snipe out the characters easily or imp fists do extra vehicle damage. Imp fists and raven guard have it's of expensive infantry, ultras infantry chews through these. Ultras are also primarily infantry but lose out on the vehicle front, giving iron hands an advantage. Etc.
Im actually pretty happy with how even they've come out. Some have the power focused in their doctrine, others have it in their WLTs, Relics and Strats.
There's a ton of very different ways to play Codex Marines right now. Some are more beginner friendly, while others reward smart play. It's not all just numberHammer.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
An entire army in Pods is legal now? Even if not a great idea, wow.
Yup, (codex) pods are exempt from most of the normal DS rules. They can come in turn 1, and dont require anchors.
Things get weird when combined with other sources of deep strike though, and we're gonna need some FAQs to sort it out.
Yeah I just glossed over it thinking "Alright, turn one DS!" not realizing the extent of the implications of ignoring the other restrictions. Time to finally finish the rest of my 6 pods, I guess.
I'd want to keep some space open anyways, so Scout deployment may still be necessary, but damn.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
we play 2k here, but I doubt it would matter much, and I didn't put my stuff in the open I put it behind LoS buildings to avoid shoting and charges from his dreandnoughts.
I have one 5 man strike squad, so I can't really use the tactics you proposed. I had a 10 man paladin squads plus characters in deep strike and the rest of the army on the ground, as unlike pods I have to be 50/50 with points on the ground. And if turn two I would have droped the paladins not on the objective, he would had max points for objectives for turn 1 and turn 2, by which point I may as well concead. As there is no way for my heros and one unit to contest or grab objectives from a mostly untouched 2k pts army.
Was my first game after summer, vs the new codex, in which I didn't knew that pods can drop turn one. But even If I knew, it still wouldn't change much. I probably wouldn't have put stuff in deep strike or just put the characters in it. Would still lose, but it would be turn 3.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
No. 3 sternguard squads with combi grav and 3 dev squads with grav +3 pods are already close to 1200 points. Then he needs a chapter master and some way to deep strike it, because the 3 pods are full. If you play something like that at 1750, that is your full list, and honestly it is tailored against Karol's list, because it is a really bad list against a lot of stuff out there and loses a lot of efficacy if going second.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
No. 3 sternguard squads with combi grav and 3 dev squads with grav +3 pods are already close to 1200 points. Then he needs a chapter master and some way to deep strike it, because the 3 pods are full. If you play something like that at 1750, that is your full list, and honestly it is tailored against Karol's list, because it is a really bad list against a lot of stuff out there and loses a lot of efficacy if going second.
Maybe you and I read the army differently. I got:
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Sternguard w/Combi Plasma (5)
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Captain (stuff).
850ish
It could have been the above and two more Sternguard Squads for an additional 250, I suppose. And upgrade the Captain to a Jump Pack for +20ish. That's 11something, sure.
It wasn't really clear. I just pulled up the possible minimum from what I could understand in the description.
As mentioned already though, my original thought that it had to be under half the army was wrong anyways. It winds up being half-ish of the 2000 point list though.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Why would space marines feel bad for taking their rightful place as Angels of Death ? I don't understand.
Oh and there were WW as well in the list, which was also very cool.
They can be whatever they want in the books. On the table they should be sorry, because GW refuse to make balanced rules.
Well if we think about sm as the new codex in a new edition, then soon we are going to get a new eldar book or new tau book, which is going to make space marines look underpowered. I do not envy the csm player though. last codex in the "old" way of writing books, probably no chance for an update in at leat a year or more. Not a good time to be a word bearer player.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Why would space marines feel bad for taking their rightful place as Angels of Death ? I don't understand.
Oh and there were WW as well in the list, which was also very cool.
They can be whatever they want in the books. On the table they should be sorry, because GW refuse to make balanced rules.
Well if we think about sm as the new codex in a new edition, then soon we are going to get a new eldar book or new tau book, which is going to make space marines look underpowered. I do not envy the csm player though. last codex in the "old" way of writing books, probably no chance for an update in at leat a year or more. Not a good time to be a word bearer player.
Until flyers are gone Eldar have counterplay, Tao will struggle, but poor Necrons who had problems with SM with the old codex, poor robots.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
As usual, you have no clue what you are talking about. 5++ is not an "insane defensive buff" it's literally the same increase in saves as putting marines in cover - except instead of taking 50% less wounds from bolters, it's 20% and it's equally good against AP-1 weapons. Basically, it makes orks die slow enough to not be a waste of points.
Grot shield was never nerfed, it hasn't been changed at all and the only "abuse" would be using it to protect a unit that pays more points for BS 5+ Sv 6+ 1W model than marines pay for BS 3+ Sv 3+ 2W models. Suppressors are strictly better than lootas and get fly, deep strike and supressive fire free on top.
And calling green tide a defensive buff... yeah, a strong offensive is the best defensive, so everything is defensive and thus every army is using nothing but defensive things - defensive lascannons, defensive smashas, defensive haywire guns, defensive smites, defensive snipers, defensive smash captains, defensive bloodletter bomb...
Oh, and marines can have a 4++ and a -1 to hit, and yet that color of marines has the worst win percentage. Which mean your thesis of 5++ being an "insane defensive debuff" is objectively wrong.
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Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Until flyers are gone Eldar have counterplay, Tao will struggle, but poor Necrons who had problems with SM with the old codex, poor robots.
Oh I don't think the new marines are some doom of everything kind of a thing. the RG are going to be super annoying to play, because denial list are like that, specially for some old list, just like you said. necron vs RG is going to be VERY unfun for the necron player.
And while I don't even mind be beaten by a strong list with a weak list, match ups should still not end with one side not being able to do anything. If suddenly we got an army that does a turn one charge with 80% of its points turn one, with no counter possible, because everyone is jetbike or fly, I wouldn't like it either, and it would have minimal impact of my match ups.
And if IH/WS/Ultra armies are going to add some changes to the meta it is going to be good as a whole for the game. But as with all rule sets being drip released, some people are going to have to wait years before they get good stuff, and even then it ain't sure if the stuff they get is going to be matching the meta or even good at all.
I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
BrianDavion wrote: I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
QFT
I suspect many posters will also never play with or against a lot of these lists and armies which they decry on the internet. If you play against something 5 times and haven't been able to even things up with experience, then you have a right to voice complaint. You may have suspected it was OP, but trying it in game is the only way to be sure.
BrianDavion wrote: I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
QFT
I suspect many posters will also never play with or against a lot of these lists and armies which they decry on the internet. If you play against something 5 times and haven't been able to even things up with experience, then you have a right to voice complaint. You may have suspected it was OP, but trying it in game is the only way to be sure.
Nah, get ready to be smacked by the "I don't need to experience it when it is mathematically obvious" comment.
No matter how much time such approach has failed, people still love it.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
As usual, you have no clue what you are talking about. 5++ is not an "insane defensive buff" it's literally the same increase in saves as putting marines in cover - except instead of taking 50% less wounds from bolters, it's 20% and it's equally good against AP-1 weapons. Basically, it makes orks die slow enough to not be a waste of points.
Grot shield was never nerfed, it hasn't been changed at all and the only "abuse" would be using it to protect a unit that pays more points for BS 5+ Sv 6+ 1W model than marines pay for BS 3+ Sv 3+ 2W models. Suppressors are strictly better than lootas and get fly, deep strike and supressive fire free on top.
And calling green tide a defensive buff... yeah, a strong offensive is the best defensive, so everything is defensive and thus every army is using nothing but defensive things - defensive lascannons, defensive smashas, defensive haywire guns, defensive smites, defensive snipers, defensive smash captains, defensive bloodletter bomb...
Oh, and marines can have a 4++ and a -1 to hit, and yet that color of marines has the worst win percentage. Which mean your thesis of 5++ being an "insane defensive debuff" is objectively wrong.
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Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Agree, CA2018 has by far the best missions.
Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.
Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.
Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.
Because when you can give your army a chance of not being shot straight off the board, as opposed to guaranteeing that they'll be shot straight off the board, you take the chance. Even when its a bad one.
Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.
You heard it here first folks, Dark Angels with a doctrine are broken OP already.
3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
You know a long time back, I used to think, because when I started getting terminators that they had the 5++ because they were just so hardcore they shrugged the damage off. When I discovered it was an energy field, my sadness was real.
That small story aside, the hyperbole is so huge on some fear mongering right now. Can we at least wait till we hear how Imperial Fists will be the real broken OP ? I don't have it in me to keep being so afraid every marine drop and I keep banging my knees jumping on and off all these bandwagons.
I need to wait and see which bandwagon is the true OP one to jump on heading straight for the top.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
The entire daemons codex disagrees.
Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?
Dandelion wrote: I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?
Spoiler:
Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere
I'd say it's less WYSIWYG than Fair Weather Fandom. I do suspect - if GW continues the "plan" to stop the counts-as movement, they will eventually do a your paint job either must be custom, or it must be what you painted i.e. if you painted Ultras you're Ultras.
Beyond that, some people have already mentioned WAAC. I wouldn't go that far, but I am going to smirk and judge most people playing with blue Iron Hands and Imperial Fists. Some of them could have painted blue before they knew you could paint yellow or black. Most of them will just be admitting they want to play easy mode and they're just chasing the Flavor Of The Month.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
The entire daemons codex disagrees.
Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?
Don't know, you tell me. You are the one defending Xenomancer's claim that paying 75/115 points for 5++ saves on 7 point models is a "crazy defensive buff".
Which must mean that all daemon infantry is friggin' invincible, right?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
The entire daemons codex disagrees.
Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?
Don't know, you tell me. You are the one defending Xenomancer's claim that paying 75/115 points for 5++ saves on 7 point models is a "crazy defensive buff".
Which must mean that all daemon infantry is friggin' invincible, right?
To be fair, Xeno is right here.
An addded invul save is better the closer it is to the actual save of the model and the more wounds on the model.
A 5++ on a mono wound 3+ model is many times useless. It is a situational buff that in the majority of the games will be ininfluent. You have to shoot at it with AP-3 weapons when the target is not in cover to notice a difference, and even there, it is just a save going from 6+ to 5+. Ask a thousand son player how many times that 5++ actually serves a purpose. On multi wound models it is already much better, since weapons with high damage also tend to have high AP. The iron father is good because he gives a 5++ to vehicles, surely not because it buffs infantry.
A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.
That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.
The issue is that you're saying the 5++ gives increased value for those models, as a 7pt model priced to die easily suddenly survives 33% of the time. But the same save is nearly worthless on a 3+ marine because it takes AP-3 for it to come into play.
So what you're telling me is marines are more than twice as durable than an ork boy to most weapons, even with a 5++, but less than double the points?
Is a KFF good value for orks? Yes. Is it making it sound like you think marines are insanely survivable? Also yes.
Jidmah wrote: That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.
but that is not true, most weapons come with -1 or -2 save mod, making the marines save on +4 or +5, an orc for 7pts with a KFF does not care if he is getting by a -1 or -10mod weapon, only thing that matters is the number of shots. And even there the orcs are going to be more resilient then marines, by sole fact of costing less. 7pts per orc means you get 3 per lets say a GK strike, and I will make the bold claim without using math, that 3 orcs for 7pts are more resilient then one strike for 21pts. Heck they are probably more resilient then a 46pts GK terminator who comes with a build in +5inv an 2W.
Jidmah wrote: That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.
but that is not true, most weapons come with -1 or -2 save mod, making the marines save on +4 or +5, an orc for 7pts with a KFF does not care if he is getting by a -1 or -10mod weapon, only thing that matters is the number of shots. And even there the orcs are going to be more resilient then marines, by sole fact of costing less. 7pts per orc means you get 3 per lets say a GK strike, and I will make the bold claim without using math, that 3 orcs for 7pts are more resilient then one strike for 21pts. Heck they are probably more resilient then a 46pts GK terminator who comes with a build in +5inv an 2W.
1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.
2. I already assumed that all weapons are AP-2 in favor of the marines. 5+ is twice as good as 6+ and 2W is twice as good as 1W. Therefore, a primaris marine is four times as survivable as a regular ork.
3. Everything is awesome survivable compared to strike teams. The rank&file marine today is an intercessor or a scout, not a tactical marine. Single wound power-armored marines see next to no play unless they are carrying expensive weapons around like stern guard or devs. Any math done against the good old MEQ is all but irrelevant.
Dandelion wrote: I personally hold myself to a fairly high standard of WYSIWYG, if it's modelled it has it. I've only ever done minor kitbashes for characters (e.g. a fireblade by mixing fire warriors and pathfinders), but I still don't see why paint scheme matters. Not to mention I wouldn't know which rules are for which faction. Seriously, for non-Tau players, what color is Daly'th* without looking it up?
Spoiler:
Actually, it's Dal'yth but I bet you didn't notice because I didn't at first
also I actually don't know the color scheme because it's not in the codex and I can't find it anywhere
Well as it is what regiment/clan/chapter/whatever unit has tends to matter more these days than the actual weapon. So if you want to be able to see most important thing about unit quickly it's clan/regiment/chapter/whatever rather than weapon that you need to know.
1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.
you really want to out bid GK on model costs.I am comparing a boy to a strike, because they are troops. you think GK get an efficient HQ for 115pt, and they can't keep up with something like interceptors either, and we have deep strike and gate.
anything swarm in the game is more resilient then elite stuff. A marine could have a +2sv, and he still would be less efficient then a IG trooper. a 28 primaris intercessor would be laughable, comparing to almost all models in the game, specially when he would die to a plasma shot from that under IG guardsman.
well strikes at 21 pts exist. 28 pts intercesors do not so it is harder to compare them to orcs, as no one played orcs vs marines with those point costs. the idea that somehow marine should be 28pts to balance a +5inv vs 7pts orcs is so over the top, that to have a real example of how false that argument is to compare them to something that costs similar. And technicaly strikes would be 7pts cheaper in such a test scenario, so would be "better" then higher price intercessors.
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BrianDavion 780238 10577685 wrote:
"Nice weather we're having today innit?"
an no one here asks about weather, because there is maybe like three weeks good weather here. In fact a question how the is weather is considered to be bit of an insult, if both people are in the same place.
A 5++ save on a 6+ model is REALLY good, it is pretty much a +50% increase in model durability against everything except AP 0.
Wait, what? Why would you use the 6+ instead of the 5++ just because it was an AP 0 attack?
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Jidmah wrote: That's already assuming that 7 ppm is a decent price for a T4/6+ model defensive stat line. If so, I'd like primaris to be costed accordingly at 28 points per model as they are more than twice as likely to make an armor safe against most weapons in the game and have twice as many wounds.
You're not allowing for diminishing returns vs High AP and/or Multi-damage. A t4 6+ model with two wounds is not worth 14 points. It doesn't get double the shots, with double the guns, it still dies to a 2 damage weapon, so the second wound is worth less than those 7 points.
Again, no, it's not. 2W is between 1.000001 and 2 times as good. Guard are 4 Points per model. 170 points of Guard will net you about 42 guardsmen. 170 points of Intercessors will land you 10 Intercessors. The guardsmen will have 42 to 84 shots, and 42 wounds across 42 models requiring 42+ attacks at them. The 10 Intercessors will have 10 to 20 shots (or 30 if you bump to 180 points vs 45 guardsmen with 45-90 shots, and 45 wounds needing 45+ Attacks) with 20 wounds across 10 models requiring 10+ attacks.
Because excess wounds do not carry over, 45 wounds on 45 bodies is better than 45 wounds on 1 body. 2 wounds is not twice as good as 1 wound.
2. I already assumed that all weapons are AP-2 in favor of the marines. 5+ is twice as good as 6+ and 2W is twice as good as 1W. Therefore, a primaris marine is four times as survivable as a regular ork.
Check your math.
A 5+ is 25% better than a 6+.
Let's assume that 2W is twice as good as 1W (it isn't).
1. An ork with KFF is not 7 pts. In competitive lists, the vast majority of ork boyz will not benefit from a KFF, as they are jumping or tellyporting in range, neither happens within 9" of a KFF unless you have a 159 wazbom blastajet within 9" of all models, which for some reason didn't get downed first. KFF first and foremost serve as cheap battalion fillers and to protect lootas, dakkajets and meks guns from alpha-strikes. When legends comes, the cheapest KFF will be 115 points on a character that will not be able to follow any unit trying to cross the field.
you really want to out bid GK on model costs.I am comparing a boy to a strike, because they are troops. you think GK get an efficient HQ for 115pt, and they can't keep up with something like interceptors either, and we have deep strike and gate.
anything swarm in the game is more resilient then elite stuff. A marine could have a +2sv, and he still would be less efficient then a IG trooper. a 28 primaris intercessor would be laughable, comparing to almost all models in the game, specially when he would die to a plasma shot from that under IG guardsman.
No, the point is that I don't want to compare anything to GK, ever.
Compared to GK, anything looks fine. You can't use a measuring stick that bent and broken in half.
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Spoletta wrote: Check your math.
A 5+ is 25% better than a 6+.
No, the point is that I don't want to compare anything to GK, ever.
Compared to GK, anything looks fine. You can't use a measuring stick that bent and broken in half.
well I wanted to use the most example closest to you the 28pts primaris. But if you want, well you can take the old pre point drop intercessors, 7pts orcs are better then those too, the difference is only in the degree.
5+ saves twice as many bolter shots than 6+.
yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.
Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.
Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.
And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.
The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.
Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?
I hope we hear more creaking wheels from the weight of more bandwagon jumping. Gotta be the best marines in town, which color will it be ?..All the colors of the rainbow united under the most recent codex release.
Can't wait for the new Deathwatch to roll out and then this will all fall to the way side as we'll hear once more. " Unless you're a Deathwatch don't even bother playing marines. " I'm calling it now.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.
I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.
Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.
Because when you can give your army a chance of not being shot straight off the board, as opposed to guaranteeing that they'll be shot straight off the board, you take the chance. Even when its a bad one.
Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.
You heard it here first folks, Dark Angels with a doctrine are broken OP already.
Hum - a hypothetical situation as we don't know what rules the DA will have but they have one of the best starting points. A 4++ reroll all hits aura from azreal for infantry.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I hope we hear more creaking wheels from the weight of more bandwagon jumping. Gotta be the best marines in town, which color will it be ?..All the colors of the rainbow united under the most recent codex release.
Can't wait for the new Deathwatch to roll out and then this will all fall to the way side as we'll hear once more. " Unless you're a Deathwatch don't even bother playing marines. " I'm calling it now.
I find it humorous.
Also lucky are those that didn't get a recent dex release.
Or upgrade.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.
I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
Karol wrote: yes, but it works like that if you have hundrads of models to get a flat avarge roll over all games. Marines general do not have 200 models in their armies, or 200 wounds. Which means for an orcs a save of +5 is stronger then for marine force with the same +5 inv.
I don't know where to start. Simply every single thing you said in that sentence is wrong.
Contrary to usual Marine player non-knowledge of the ork codex, the KFF does not automatically provide every model on the table with a save, can be killed and is not free.
it's an aura ability. covers units out to 9 inches. which is decent and very useful but hardly game breaking.
I agree, and never claimed the opposite. It's well worth it's points, but not carrying orks to tournament wins like Xenomancer is claiming.
Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
No you wouldn't because that cp is spent on other, more important stuff.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.
Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.
And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.
The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.
Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?
Because that's what this argument is all about.
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.
Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.
And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.
The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.
Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?
Because that's what this argument is all about.
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
Chaos marines get easy access to a 5++ from the noctolith crown, you see those in every list.
Xenomancers wrote: Putting words in my mouth. I said the KFF is OP. I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
Lol and you are wrong. So, so wrong. On so many different levels too.
I thought you played 40k competitively? You must have faced Ork opponents. Did they fit their entire, 200+ model army under a single KFF?
Did they even bring one at all? The strongest defence us Orks have to show our durability is simply weight of numbers. The KFF actually makes most builds less durable (but it can be used to protect key units like Mek guns and the Mek that holds it can also repair).
You won't see the KFF now that index Big Meks are banned from tournaments. The MA Big Mek is not worth it.
Well they technically won't be banned, just not recommended for tournament play. Which is close to the same but without just speaking frankly. At least as far as most players are concerned, not me but most.
I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.
Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?
I wish I could use the IH rules as I like the idea of a mechanized SM army or an all dread army and IH really encourages that more than any other. Problem is my space marines are painted as DA successors so I don't want to be called out on it.
MistaGav wrote: I wish I could use the IH rules as I like the idea of a mechanized SM army or an all dread army and IH really encourages that more than any other. Problem is my space marines are painted as DA successors so I don't want to be called out on it.
Is a successor, is fine to use the rules.
Ofcourse if you use obvious heraldry then some people get annoyed but frankly most won't care.
I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.
Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?
I do agree, yes. Just because a unit isn't broken doesn't mean a particular buffing mechanic isn't. If Orks were suddenly Infantry prices for example it would be absurd to give that many models that much a better save.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I do agree, yes. Just because a unit isn't broken doesn't mean a particular buffing mechanic isn't. If Orks were suddenly Infantry prices for example it would be absurd to give that many models that much a better save.
How does "broken as a castellan" match with other codex having that exact same save on cheaper units(which see no play) and the vast majority of ork boyz in competitive armies never benefiting from a KFF?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah and the new Techmarine guy is also not able to provide a 5++ to everyone, is not free, and dies pretty easily too.
Main difference is that a 5++ goes a longer way to making Ork models better as they already have naturally lower saves.
And DA could have a 4++ save for all of the edition. No one cares.
The original argument was that orks win tournaments because, according to Xenomancer, they have a crazy good defensive buff.
Do you agree or disagree that gretchin/boyz with a KFF are a "crazy good defensive option" powerful enough to compare with 3++ castellans, fully buffed shining spears or plague bearers?
Because that's what this argument is all about.
Pray tell, how many of that 4++ and 5++ can Marines buy?
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
Chaos marines get easy access to a 5++ from the noctolith crown, you see those in every list.
That unit doesn't move and it costs 100 something points. It's not terrible but practically every chaos psychic unit has a 5++ save already. So really it's just the reroll that it provides (which also isn't bad) The units it helps most though (TS/daemons) already have invune save.
I've used it effectively to protect vindicators for the stratagem for 3d3 mortal wounds - it actually worked quite well the few times I did it.
Xenomancers wrote: 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
And any opponent you play against will send you candy and flowers for blowing that many CP on something entirely pointless as they snipe out your mek.
Right...Just like everyone spending 2 CP to give their whole army cover...an absolute waste of CP man.
This is how I know you don't actually play that game. Snipe your Mek? Literally on a few armies can do that effectively and they can't snipe a meq they can't see in most cases. If they can snipe your mek OLOS than I guess you just don't spend 3 CP and huddle around. This is not rocket science. Except for marines snipers really aren't that good.
I didn't say orks were dominating tournaments. They do reasonably well though. You are also being really unrealistic. It can easily buff your entire army not to mention can be buffed to 18" range. 3 CP to give your whole army a 5++ save...Yeah...I'll do it.
That's because you have no clue what you are talking about. That stratagem is absolutely terrible has not been used even once by anyone placing top 4 with orks.
Most top lists are running 0-1 KFF meks, and you occasionally see a wazbom.
Also I don't care about the 3++ Castellans being broken because everyone knows they were. However, yes the defensive buff is actually really good for Orks.
How about you answer the question instead of dodging. Xenomancer claims that the KFF is equally OP as a 3++ castallan. Do you agree or not?
You are just making stuff up now - Where did I say that KFF is as OP as 3++ Castellans? Plus - if you look through my history on Castellans you'd easily find that I was a huge supporter of a Castellan nerf. I was even supportive of a Gman nerf. To bring all marine armies in line with each other with better internal balance. It's pretty clear now though that internal balance was not the goal of these supplements.
Also - if you aren't using a KFF - you are actively gimping yourself. I am sure of it. KFF is basically mandatory as orks.
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.
just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.
This is how I know you don't actually play that game. Snipe your Mek? Literally on a few armies can do that effectively and they can't snipe a meq they can't see in most cases. If they can snipe your mek OLOS than I guess you just don't spend 3 CP and huddle around. This is not rocket science. Except for marines snipers really aren't that good.
Youve literally never played against Eliminators have you.
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.
just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.
I was making a joke. However I'm basically right for all intents and purposes game-wise. There aren't rules for creating Chapter Masters and their successors are told "feth you" when it comes to Relics.
Karol wrote: Doesn't it clearly state in the DA codex, that succesor chapters can't take stuff like relics or azrael?
There are no rules for non-codex successors.
In the codex it actually says successors can't take relics other than heavanfall blades and no scs. Will include page citations when I get home today
yeah but it's irrelevant as most people play their DA sucessors as "dark angels with a differant paint job" as there's no real rules for playing a sucessor chapter. now if GW went out and say gave dark angel players the sucessor chapter list, and said DA players can make a DA sucessor using these rules. then yeah thats relevant, but other then that..
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
Actually, no Successors exist and only Azrael can ever be their Chapter Master based on the army list.
just because rules for a chapter master don't exist doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping if BAs and DAs get a 8.5 codex GW'll make it easier to run sucessor chapters.
I was making a joke. However I'm basically right for all intents and purposes game-wise. There aren't rules for creating Chapter Masters and their successors are told "feth you" when it comes to Relics.
yeah but GW's not been very supportive of sucessor chapters for a long time, I'm really hoping that the sucess of the 8.5 edition marine dex gives GW the impression people want this. I'm not even saying that BA and DA codices should have the ability to customize their own CTs (if your chapter tactics are differant you've proably diverged eneugh not to be using the special stuff the 1st founding one uses) but giving a chapter master strat would be nice.
Xenomancers wrote: You are just making stuff up now - Where did I say that KFF is as OP as 3++ Castellans?
I suggest reading your own posts. Preferably before you hit "submit".
Xenomancers wrote: This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff.
Also - if you aren't using a KFF - you are actively gimping yourself. I am sure of it. KFF is basically mandatory as orks.
I suggest you watch an actual game played by a good ork player before we continue this discussion - there are plenty of streams available. I have no interest in discussing a meta and tactics that only exist in your head. I just wish you would stop spreading misinformation.
True. I used to do that in 5th/6th with my Angels of Vengeance Dreadwing
In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...
In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...
They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.
I paint my brother's Dark Angels with a theme which is similar but not identical to the canonic one, except for the deathwing which is completely different.
He never had any problems fielding Azrael for this.
emblazoned upon yourself, and proclaim to have been a son of Guilliman. Have some pride! When the Empire was ashes, who rebuilt it? When the legions cried out for leadership, who answered their calls? Who's knowledge of combat, strategy and warfare created the Codex Astartes? When Calgar's arms were ripped off by the Xeno foe, did he waver, did he cringe, turn tail and last out his days on a battleship, directing orbital strikes from the safety of a command bridge? NO, SIR! He got massive metal fists with guns on them!
