TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

 Sim-Life wrote:
Funny that you talk about context but leave the context of this bit out. Is this the "kill one knight per turn" context? Because in my casual meta (and I'm willing to bet a lot of other peoples metas) T8 tanks even without an invuln aren't generally popped in a single turn unless someone has very good/bad dice.

Exorcists aren't knights. If you can pop a questoris in one round you can pop two or three exorcists.

You seem to play a very soft meta. It's not the height of tournament power listing to votlw a squad of slaanesh havoks or something similarly mundane.

The codex seems pretty solid but not super powerful to me. I think it is the sort of power level codices should have.

One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

 Crimson wrote:
One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

3 exorcists, 80-90 battle sisters on foot, celestine and support characters, and not a whole lot else at 2000pts?

I don't think that the AP ignoring combo will be metabreakingly OP, merely that it is clearly the best build in the codex. It's an concern about internal balance.

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

..

Ozomoto wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
Many, many said the same thing about the beta dex. Didn't stop me from winning ITC GT's with them.

Everyone's milliage varies, I see strength in the new dex, you might not not. Move on its not for you. Next dex I might not see the strength but others will, it's not for me.

Yep, sure. And I'm the crown prince of mars, ruler of the bubblegum fairies.

None of the top 10 SoB players in the ITC have won any GTs, Even simon leen, the guy in first, hasn't won one.

So either you're full gak, not actually playing sisters, or don't understand what a 'GT' is.

https://www.40kstats.com/fieldsofdamnation heres a recent one.

How recent? I find it a little weird that there are no marines in the top 4 (honestly).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

It did nearly double it's number of shots on average (though not quite).

In exchange, it went up 45 points.
It lost a point of AP on the weapon.
It lost access to an invuln higher than a 6++.|
It gained Order Convictions (which do little for it. Yay, it's pistol can be -1 Rend and it can get +1 attack in CC - oh wait).

It's now roughly the same price as an upgraded tank commander for fewer average shots, no innate Re-Roll 1s, no secondary weapons, and requires babysitting to do stuff (e.g. to take 3 in a detachment you need an HQ, unlike the Tank Commander). Oh, and not many Order convictions help it out at all, unlike the Tank Commander.

..

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

Can you tell us how you felt your army would've done if you didn't have half marines in your list?

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

You are seriously putting forward a minimum equipment CP battery as an example of sisters winning GT tournaments?

That's like fielding 1001 points of conscripts screening an old knight & bikers list and calling it a guard army.

.

I'm not in a position to address tournaments, competitive play, or "the meta" on whatever scale... I have a local crew and mostly play once a month against one of the same five or six guys... so what I can offer may count for nothing. But I have been playing the army since its inception and have played every codex in every edition, so there's that.

I'm excited for this book. The last couple of books we've had gave us a clear standout option, from Celestine's turn 1 charge to the 4++ Exorcist castle. You'd see those things every single game when they were the mainstay of the army. At first glance, this book has a few killer combos, but doesn't seem to really force a particular build. Losing the vehicle Vanguard move is a bummer, but at least you won't see three melta Dominion squads leading every Sisters army.

So, in my weird little local and very personal context, here's what I'm excited for:
-lots of viable unit types and loadouts... especially Celestians (whose bodyguard ability may prove essential), heavy flamer Retributers (8 of them jumping out of a Rhino?), deep-striking Seraphim (they fixed the Stratagem we needed for infernos), blob Sisters getting another chance (thanks to more ways to manipulate morale), good ol' MSU special weapon spam, etc., etc.
-options to hold up better in melee... in so many editions, Sisters folded the moment they came in contact with anything sturdier than a Guardsman.
-mechanized Sisters are down a peg... hopefully not gone, because I love that play style, but wall o' tanks shouldn't be the best or the only option. I've always done best at objective grabbing and suffered in kill-point type scoring, so maybe that's shifting to a more neutral balance.
-the full slate of stratagems, relics, warlord traits, etc... not that they are better/worse or same/different than others, but that they exist at all. We're a real army with real decisions to make!
-this codex seems to split the emphasis between list-building and strategy, which I like... I want to put the effort in up front AND be challenged to play well in the moment.
-on the whole, there's a lot of moving parts here... in my experience, Sisters have always been a "hard mode" army in terms of playing it well, and I think that continues with lots of synergies to track and decisions to make in play.
-plastic freakin' models... this will open up a whole new aspect of the army for me as I've been pure Battel Sisters and never really invested in certain units, and now I get to buy and build and paint and play some Arcos and Repentia at last!

So, not to challenge anyone's commentary on the competitive meta, but I'm excited to buy and play this book.

I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

..

Ozomoto wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

It explicitly says you place your miracle dice into roll, then proceed to roll any dice you need to rol lstill. Miracle dice cannot be rerolled.
So basically you can never replace an already rolled dice.

I watched that batrep and I think they messed up more than that. I know he did a mech Vanguard move as well, used MDs reactively, but hey, it's a new book. I'm glad they tried one.

Ozomoto wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

It explicitly says you place your miracle dice into roll, then proceed to roll any dice you need to rol lstill. Miracle dice cannot be rerolled.
So basically you can never replace an already rolled dice.

Probably me not paying attention fully for a change then.

Ozomoto wrote:
It really doesn't matter if thats a sister lists.

It kind of does when you put forward a 'winning grand tournaments with sisters' line.

It's an imperial soup list. Honestly i'm surprised more of the 17 sisters varieties didn't pop up, beta sisters never looked bad as detachment padders but it's also why the rest of the codex was never considered top tier - the rest of the codex just couldn't lift them. Same concern with the new one and the ranks of AP -2 ignoring chaff that may have even less teeth than their predecessors.

Yeah, propping up Sororitas shortcomings with other Imperial armies is fine. Same with Inquisition.

But it doesn't make Sororitas good. Mono-marines is a thing, and they obviously (unlike Inquisition) intend for Sororitas to be a mono-dex-capable army, given that they put mono-Sororitas rules in the book (the Rites of Battle).

So, given that Sororitas are in a "mono-dex-able" category, they are more comparable to Marines than to Inquisition.

So yes, soup lists that include Sororitas can do well. What about mono-Sororitas, which the designers clearly intend to be a capable faction?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

It did nearly double it's number of shots on average (though not quite).

In exchange, it went up 45 points.
It lost a point of AP on the weapon.
It lost access to an invuln higher than a 6++.|
It gained Order Convictions (which do little for it. Yay, it's pistol can be -1 Rend and it can get +1 attack in CC - oh wait).

It's now roughly the same price as an upgraded tank commander for fewer average shots, no innate Re-Roll 1s, no secondary weapons, and requires babysitting to do stuff (e.g. to take 3 in a detachment you need an HQ, unlike the Tank Commander). Oh, and not many Order convictions help it out at all, unlike the Tank Commander.

So over 200 points? Yeesh. That's a bit harsh. Damage is still D3? No other abilities on the weapon?

The anti tank variant is something like 175 points.

His weapon its Heavy 3d3 F9 -3AP (Or -2? I can't remember) D6 damage.


And 4++ vehicles are trash. I'm sorry. They were trash with Azrael and they were Trash with Sororitas, I don't care if it was the only viable build. Dark Angels lost any kind of competitive power with the nerf to the Azrael castle but even with that I'm glad as a Dark Angel Player.

 Galas wrote:
The anti tank variant is something like 175 points.

His weapon its Heavy 3d3 F9 -3AP (Or -2? I can't remember) D6 damage.


And 4++ vehicles are trash. I'm sorry. They were trash with Azrael and they were Trash with Sororitas, I don't care if it was the only viable build. Dark Angels lost any kind of competitive power with the nerf to the Azrael castle but even with that I'm glad as a Dark Angel Player.

Ahh...D6 damage AND S9 AND its only 175? So it's like 6 shots of a lascannon. It used to be AP4 so AP3 sounds right if it dropped one and it used to be S8. If this is correct I have no idea why people are complaining. 3 TLC are 120 points. You get the same thing on a T8 chassis for 55 points.

This is the same thing as the KMK. It went from D3 damage to D6 and took a point increase and ever since people have been calling it a conspiracy to change sales to Smasha Guns.

My fault, it is S8, not 9.

 Galas wrote:
My fault, it is S8, not 9.

Ok, i'll calm my tits a little. Still seems pretty useful.

Yeah, the Exorcist is S8, not S9. i personally don't think it was nerfed, because the variance for it's shots has indeed improved, but the cost hike on it does concern me, considering its one of those things i think you run a lot of. i never did the invul synergies before, but that also does make it easier to pop...

I'm planning on using zero exorcists.

I will just flood the board with bloody rose infantry. Hella fun and maybe even effective.

Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

PenitentJake wrote:


Well Kat, respect, but this is exactly what I'm talking about; how you can say the exorcist got nerfed is beyond me- iits minimum and maximum number of shots both got increased; it now has an option for rerolling it's number of shots of you don't like what you get, it now has a second load out option, and it benefits from acts of faith now. But it lost one point of AP [which can be given back with an Order trait if you're really that busted up about it], and it's points cost went up. Those who cry nerf are talking about the last two things in this list while completely ignoring the first four.

Well... it's power per unit cost that's relevant, and going from 125 to 170 for 2.5 more shots isn't a good deal. I am calling it a nerf. Sure, it got more shots, a whole 2.5 more on average, at the massively increased cost of 170 points. This is more expensive than a Leman Russ Demolisher and in the range of the Leman Russ Demolisher Tank Commander, which it compares unfavorably too.

Miracle dice are weak, and only Valorous Heart has any useful effect on it and even then it's negligble, so yes, I'm aware of all 4 things, and I think they're poor substitutes for 45 points.

PenitentJake wrote:
Oh, and you know what else? I can auto 6 on at least one of my damage dice, and possibly ALL of them, depending on how they FAQ miracle dice. But you go right ahead and believe that the possibility of doing 54 points of damage instead of a very unlikely 36 is a nerf. I mean, some dude on Youtube said so, it must be true.

I think the wording on this is pretty clear. You may replace one roll with the result of one or more Miracle dice per phase. A charge roll consists of 2 dice. A damage roll consists of one. Each separate shot is a separate hit, wound, and damage roll and you can therefore only replace one with a 6.

And you think that doing 54 points of damage is any more likely than 36? Maximum potential damage is almost worthless, mean damage and it's variance are what matters.

I'll take my 4.1 average damage for 125 points over 5.8 average damage for 170.

PenitentJake wrote:
To say that Dominions can't use transports anymore is just not true. To say they can't apply their scout move to a transport may be true, but those really aren't the same thing are they? Words actually have meanings.

You are correct, I was hyperbolic.

PenitentJake wrote:
Argent Shroud is half of Tallarn? Yeah, because Tallarn power armour and miracle dice work so much better than... Oh, wait, they don't get power armour and miracle dice. Well you can still say they have more awesome plastic models than we do... Oh, wait, you mean they're still the same ten metal sculpts from 1997 and they lost their rough riders? Gee, guess those sisters are lookin pretty hot.

Does the Argent Shroud have Shoot and Scoot Tank Commanders? Huh, no. Miracle Dice vs. Orders is no contest. It's almost like not only is the profile of a Tallarnian tank commander better for it's cost, the Tallarnian tank has better support from it's own codex special abilities [tank orders] and it's trait [can move and fire]. Okay, sure, Sisters aren't about tanks despite this one being a competitive necessity...

And power armor isn't a worthwhile end in an of itself. Ask the marines for the last 2.5 years if they would rather have had power armor or traded it for FlaK and been 4 points for a wound with a 5+.

Miracle dice are like a single unit from your whole army getting half of Master Artisans. [It's actually even weaker than that on units with multiple weapon upgrades/multiple shots].

PenitentJake wrote:
The way this edition works is by stacking bonuses from different sources- it's not just the rites, or the acts of faith, or the strats, or the relics, or the warlord traits- it's the combination. It's why comparing a doctrine to a doctrine doesn't tell the whole story. And the leaks and youtube vids have examined some of this combos, but not all of them. That literally cannot happen until you study the book.

I sometimes come across as a GW apologist, but it is because of some of the ludicrous negativity I see on Dakka. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw some miscreant say a model is totally useless because they thought a single one of its stats needed to be one point higher. I mean, if that's your line of thinking, why do you even need a dex- because you're just going to pick what you perceive to be the best HQ and declare all others garbage; you'll take the best elite and declare all others useless. People complain we didn't get a second troops choice, but half of those people would have whined just as hard that it was garbage if GW had given us one anyway, so what's the point?

I wouldn't call myself a hater, I didn't have unrealistic expectations before hand and this was basically what I expected.

That said, I don't think that things are awesome just because they're shiny, they need to also be good. And being good isn't just a factor of getting 3d3 shots versus 1d6 now, it's a factor of what kind of baked-in support from other units, stratagems, traits, doctrines, and special abilities are available for a given unit cost. And in exchange for marginal buffs, and one large one, the tank got a marginal nerf and a very large cost increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


So over 200 points? Yeesh. That's a bit harsh. Damage is still D3? No other abilities on the weapon?

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

Ah, ok. I didn't pay much attention to the beta dex. Yea I'd call that pretty reasonable. Makes me think predators are getting a drop in points in CA.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

The problem is that they have no delivery system and are made out of tissue paper.

Mortifiers are T5 with a 4+ save and need Celestine to have an invul and Repentia are T3 with a 6++ and need 2 characters buffing them to get to a 4++. They'll both likely get shot off the table before they make it into combat and repentia need overwatch blockers to not lose the whole squad.


Their on paper damage numbers are brutal but you can pretty much count on half to 2/3rds of your melee units dying trying to get across the table. Whether that's good enough...dunno. Might be, they do put out a ton of damage.

Bdrone wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

Ah, ok. I didn't pay much attention to the beta dex. Yea I'd call that pretty reasonable. Makes me think predators are getting a drop in points in CA.

Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Bdrone wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

They're talking out of their butts. Cool, you're slightly faster at not killing anything before not surviving return fire.

ERJAK wrote:


Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.

Well, if you compare everything to marines then nothing is useful.

Oddly enough not even those benefits are enough to get IH to use predators, but my interest lies more on the CSM side of things anyway.

Didn't want to quote, but for Inquisitor Lord Katherine, the miracle dice system is worded almost exactly the same as the Destiny Dice system in Sigmar, which allows you to replace every dice in a roll (i.e. 6 shots can use 6 dice to hit) and several abilities, units, stratagems, etc are worded/costed as if it allows multiple dice per roll.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that the more powerful interpretation is more likely the correct one. Why would 'use the dice you used on a hit roll in the wound roll' even exist if it was only 1 dice? Why would it be 2CP? Why would the Triumph be 180pts when half of its rules don't do anything in the single dice interpratation? Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.

Well, if you compare everything to marines then nothing is useful.

Oddly enough not even those benefits are enough to get IH to use predators, but my interest lies more on the CSM side of things anyway.

Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

ERJAK wrote:
Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.

170 points is in no way unreasonable nor is it considering MD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:


Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

Not really. I didn't clearly explain my thought process, but you took it into a realm of useless comparison to IH. It doesn't benefit to compare to the hardest thing around that clearly needs a nerf.

Ozomoto wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

Can you tell us how you felt your army would've done if you didn't have half marines in your list?

I don't know how to answer that question. Running mono sisters in beta dex rules is suicide if that is what you where asking; I was very happy with them alongside the castellan, master of snares, custodes where ok but i dropped them. Very happy with Blood angels. 5-6 assassins have been quite good. They have merit allying with most of the other imperium factions imo. Space marines are good though, and this archetype at the time was worse as a mono marine build and better for having the bulk of the points be in sisters.

To put in into perspective my centurions actually shot maybe 1-1.5 on average per game. The bulk of the work was shovelling abberents that have wrapped units off objectives, dueling high impact charactors like patriarch, talonmasters etc with the smash nun. Double shooting engineers with seraphim to strip points away. The artillery might be the flashiest but the work done in the trenches is important too. Seraphim and celestine where easily mvp, as they always are.

Good luck trying to run a mono inquisition list. Doesn't stop them being being really good.

A.T. wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

You are seriously putting forward a minimum equipment CP battery as an example of sisters winning GT tournaments?

That's like fielding 1001 points of conscripts screening an old knight & bikers list and calling it a guard army.

That is more then 50% a guard army for sure. So i would call is a 51% or w.e guard army. My original post was about leveraging a codex's strength. If 1001 points of conscripts gives you the bodies and cp to screen for X unit, then that would be leveraging the strengths of guard for said unit. If a codex gives you tons of cp and cheap bodies as one of its defining powerful attribute; then that is what you have to work with.

One of the strong elements of sisters is the ability for them to check hordes with volume of strength 4 shots combined with high durability vs ap0 attacks; running them barebones makes sense as that is what they are good at. You want them cheap so they are miserable to try and interact with. A seraphim squad of ten going burning descent into a charge gives you 102 S 4 attacks (assuming preacher +makes faith test) that hit on 3+. Plenty of damage already with no upgrades required.

Whether you call that a 'guard' army or not is just pedantry. It really doesn't matter if thats a sister lists. They have an important function and they do their job well and have been good to me. I couldn't care less if it doesn't' make the cut for the grand title of "sisters army".

You will. As had been made clear by the marine book and the sisters book, GW is moving their codex design towards favoring mono-codex armies. Marines are an example of that going too far, sisters are an example of it not going anywhere near far enough. Regardless, it's happening.

By the end of next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see souping almost totally phased out of the meta as more and more armies get bonuses for staying monofaction. At that point, it won't matter how good allies Sisters make, you won't take them because it means your guard army won't be BS2 with advance and shoot no penalty anymore, or your knight army won't be able to shoot each knight twice per turn, or your Admech army won't do mortal wounds on 6s to hit, or whatever crazy 'doctrine' equivalent bonuses they come up with.

We're where admech were at the start of the codex releases. Got a book too early and even though it's decent enough now, we have to wait on an army that only gets weaker as time goes on, praying for updates and point changes.

.

Predators are generally recognised as bad, so any comparison is a bit odd.

With that said if you compared it to a Repulsor Executioner it doesn't feel that awful. Similar glass cannon problem. The issue is that Iron Hands are off the chain and need to be nerfed hard - and perhaps, in 6 months, they will be.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.

170 points is in no way unreasonable nor is it considering MD.


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ERJAK wrote:


Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

Not really. I didn't clearly explain my thought process, but you took it into a realm of useless comparison to IH. It doesn't benefit to compare to the hardest thing around that clearly needs a nerf.

It's a swingy, random, sitting duck that's also very fragile, considering there's no way to repair it or stop it from degrading. 170pts feels very steep for that. MD only make up for its price if you're replacing multiple dice, so it'll depend on which MD interpretation is correct. Adding 2.5 damage to one shot, once per turn, for one of them,(which is what a 6 does on average) is not particularly impressive.

Comparing it to the hardest thing around is the only comparison that matters. Whether IH need a nerf or not is irrelevant, they're the big kids on the block you have to be able to measure up with them, or at least deal with them, if you want to win. Having your absolute best long range shooting unit be equal to or even slightly better than a unit that no IH player would even consider, is probably not good times.

ERJAK wrote:

It's a swingy, random, sitting duck that's also very fragile, considering there's no way to repair it or stop it from degrading. 170pts feels very steep for that. MD only make up for its price if you're replacing multiple dice, so it'll depend on which MD interpretation is correct. Adding 2.5 damage to one shot, once per turn, for one of them,(which is what a 6 does on average) is not particularly impressive.

Comparing it to the hardest thing around is the only comparison that matters. Whether IH need a nerf or not is irrelevant, they're the big kids on the block you have to be able to measure up with them, or at least deal with them, if you want to win. Having your absolute best long range shooting unit be equal to or even slightly better than a unit that no IH player would even consider, is probably not good times.

I don't know that I'd characterize 3D3 S8 AP3 as swingy. D6 damage is, but then you have 6 shots usually and MD to back it up. Sure, MD on average is "only" 2.5 wounds more, but when you can determine the outcome of a result then it becomes much more than just an average.

Feel free to compare to IH, but it isn't going to get you anywhere useful. We all know they need a nerf. Either GW finds a way to nerf them or the (competitive) game boils over and the company suffers.

Argent Shroud has the best version of all the subfaction rules of "movement" of the game, to be honest. Tallarn, Deathguard, Black Legion, etc...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

You get more miracle dice than you can use on Acts of Faith in the current book paradigm, so that would have to be reduced if you were buffing AoF to be an after the fact decision. I personally prefer GW's system a great deal; giving you a large number of miracle dice allows it to be more consistent, rolling a 1 is less of an issue when you are going to have more than that one dice.

I like the Bloody Rose the most. Crazy melee Sisters sounds like fun. Too bad the hover pulpit is locked to Martyred Lady as I really like that model.

Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

 Galas wrote:
Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

Did you not know that literally every opponent you'll ever play against will be rolling up with only the hottest OP flavor of the month army?

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

I do wish it got the ability though. Then I wouldn't have to explain that every pick-up game...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

Are you? probably included me when i felt more up about this. im sticking with argent shroud so long as im doing this because thats where my story for my army descends from, but i find the Hand of the emperor sacred rite so piddly offhand that the only reason im not immediately thinking of running to ally the army is the potential value of the Deny rite and having it in the back pocket in case you need it. wish i could have it and assassins at least...

that doctrine IS nice because you can just advance so much in the army each turn and get away with it, but you did point out how little it has. Deeds not words indeed, it's one of the least wordy subfaction rules there is. it ends up working well for me because i already was looking to run tri-retributor in my list planning, so now auto-advancing heavy bolters at no penalty is one of the best things the book gave my playstyle.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

3 exorcists, 80-90 battle sisters on foot, celestine and support characters, and not a whole lot else at 2000pts?

So... Pretty much what I already own. I'm good.


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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 godardc wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

No. It's a tank hunter, not an artillery. It's never been able to shoot NLoS, but it is very tall so it's easy for it to see over things.

Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

Because the Exorcist was the biggest changing unit. None of the special characters seem competitive, Immolators got an unneeded cost increase, Dominions got a bit of a kick and Rets got a raise while Celestians got a buff that hasn't convinced anyone yet. (Probably due to the fact that they can print the Acolyte's new Bodyguard rule and then the Celestian's and be ok with that.)

I like the codex from what I've seen. It's far too early to say if it's powerful or weak. This topic is showing a bit of ignorance in that regard.

Some armies are obviously powerful, others require unlocking. It's why Raven Guard were considered underwhelming at launch. How wrong the casual were.

Unfortunately most people only get their opinions from tournament results. Let's wait and see how Sisters perform after the actual model range has been released and people have time to put armies together.

Lammia wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The codex is so lack luster, everyones argument is about the exorcist ...So we have one (debatable) good unit.....and "neat" synergistic mono faction rules. I don't know if I call that mid tier....or worse.

Because the Exorcist was the biggest changing unit. None of the special characters seem competitive, Immolators got an unneeded cost increase, Dominions got a bit of a kick and Rets got a raise while Celestians got a buff that hasn't convinced anyone yet. (Probably due to the fact that they can print the Acolyte's new Bodyguard rule and then the Celestian's and be ok with that.)

Exactly it is very very lackluster. Everything they do, some other army does better....

Well okay- perhaps my defense of the Exorcist was a tad over zealous. I'm still going to field at least two, and in some battles, maybe 3, but I am starting to understand people's frustration.

I tried to find some of the barrage of leaks that I've read to find the exorcist specific strat, but I couldn't find it, and now I'm beginning to doubt that I'm remembering it correctly, or even that it was there in the first place.

I believe it allowed you to reroll any or all of the dice for the number of shots you get. It might have been a strat, or an ammo cherub... not sure.

I agree as well that, particularly with damage, I can see the single MD limit coming into play; about hits I'm less certain. I don't play AoS, but I remember reading a description of how Disciples of Tzeench function, and that's the thing that's leading to multi-dice interpretations of the rule.

If you can only use one MD, I can still see the utility if you're splitting your fire between units, but that's it.

I just need to wait until the dex is in my hand, because it is driving me nuts trying to piece together the combos from so many sources.

I'm not a SoB player so feel free to take this with a *massive* pinch of salt.

However, looking at all the leaks, the codex just seems rather bland.

Not that it's necessarily weak, just that nothing I've seen has caught my interest or made me want to start a SoB army.

The new Act of Faith ability feels less like GW listening to the issues with the older iterations of Acts of Faith and more like them just giving up.entirely. I mean, maybe Miracle Dice will be useful, even strong, but there's really nothing about the rule that ties them to Sisters of Battle. Indeed, Tzeentch basically got the same ability in AoS long before SoB did in 40k (and IMO it feels far more Tzeentch-y than SoB-y).

Again, it's not necessarily bad it's just that for a codex that is at least partially celebrating the long, long-awaited reworking of ancient SoB models, I'd have expected more of a spark. I fear, however, it just feels like a bog-standard codex to pass a bit of time before the next Marine release.

Man, I really can’t believe how salty everyone is, just because this codex isn’t OBVIOUSLY as strong as space marines.

A LOT will hinge on a FAQ for Miracle Dice. It’s pretty impossible to judge the strength of this codex without some clarification.

PenitentJake wrote:
Well okay- perhaps my defense of the Exorcist was a tad over zealous. I'm still going to field at least two, and in some battles, maybe 3, but I am starting to understand people's frustration.

I tried to find some of the barrage of leaks that I've read to find the exorcist specific strat, but I couldn't find it, and now I'm beginning to doubt that I'm remembering it correctly, or even that it was there in the first place.

I believe it allowed you to reroll any or all of the dice for the number of shots you get. It might have been a strat, or an ammo cherub... not sure.

I agree as well that, particularly with damage, I can see the single MD limit coming into play; about hits I'm less certain. I don't play AoS, but I remember reading a description of how Disciples of Tzeench function, and that's the thing that's leading to multi-dice interpretations of the rule.

If you can only use one MD, I can still see the utility if you're splitting your fire between units, but that's it.

I just need to wait until the dex is in my hand, because it is driving me nuts trying to piece together the combos from so many sources.

There is the Stratagem for re-rolling Exorcist shots, you aren't going mad.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Also I disagree with the notion that the only thing that matters if is something can go toe to toe with the most OP thing in the meta.


Thats not how this works. The busted stuff should be and will be nerfed.

Did you not know that literally every opponent you'll ever play against will be rolling up with only the hottest OP flavor of the month army?

TBF, lots of people play Marines. Now that Marines are really, really, really good, *lots and lots* of people will be playing them. So should you expect to run into them? Yeah. Will they all be tourney ready? Nah. But even casual Marines lists are pretty scary. You can't just take fluffy gak and expect to have a chance.

What i’m taking from this thread then is that Sisters have a reasonable codex that isn’t meta breaking, and probably won’t compete on the top tables, but we’re not quite sure yet as it’s not in all players hands? It also seems a bit dull?

I’ve not kept up with all of the online leaking and pre-release videos, so i’m not trying to fuel any heated discussion here. (My little disclaimer before one of the local anger merchants jump down my throat for some inane reason).

Not really sure why its "dull".
Compared to say DE (most non-Marine factions imo) you have a reasonable number of possible synergies - with the rites, chapter tactics, options and buffing characters.
A 49 point 5 sister squad with 2 stormbolters seems like a reasonable baseline to build from - however you want to then buff them up.
Immolators and rhinos being 10-20 points too expensive undermines a heavy mechanised list (imo anyway) but others may disagree. Some of the non-sisters units that dont synergise also feel a bit meh.
But if we were not living in an IH/RG paradise I'm not sure why you would say this codex is obviously weak. I guess the argument is that CA19 may provide buffs to various factions whereas Sisters are stuck for a year. But surely wait and see.

Tyel wrote:
Not really sure why its "dull".
Compared to say DE (most non-Marine factions imo) you have a reasonable number of possible synergies - with the rites, chapter tactics, options and buffing characters.
A 49 point 5 sister squad with 2 stormbolters seems like a reasonable baseline to build from - however you want to then buff them up.
Immolators and rhinos being 10-20 points too expensive undermines a heavy mechanised list (imo anyway) but others may disagree. Some of the non-sisters units that dont synergise also feel a bit meh.
But if we were not living in an IH/RG paradise I'm not sure why you would say this codex is obviously weak. I guess the argument is that CA19 may provide buffs to various factions whereas Sisters are stuck for a year. But surely wait and see.

Thanks for the roundup. I’m still excited to get my hands on the codex.

The codex has lots of builds, unique mechanics, excellent minis and a lot of flavor. It is also by far the most player dependent army since it can customize bonuses and manage rolls.

Strong or weak only time will tell, but dull? I see no reason for that.

More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1 and 2 disposal.

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

There are ways to use them

Speaking as a filthy casual, I think (from what I've gathered so far) the dex is...interesting. it seems to have a lot of interesting flavours that appeal to me narritively. Such a large array of relics has me relishing making up new models with them and coming up with stories for each character that wields them.
Yes there are some changes I'm disappointed at- loss of eviscerators and exorcist losing a point of ap and our vehicles going back to being fragile with the loss of the 4++; still no jump pack Cannoness option so my jump pack Cannoness continues to collect dust from witch hunter days.

But overall I'm looking for wears to the new stories I get to make with the new options.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

I'd be disappointed if all you could use miracle dice for is as dice. It would feel more... bland.

I find cool you can burn them for some bonuses. It makes more valuable to gain as many as you can

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

You don't just deliberately blow them on unimportant rolls the way you do with the Tzeentch fate dice in Sigmar?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
More of an aside - I know that Ld tests are a thing but there's still something slightly weird to me about having "Miracle" Dice that are set to 1 or 2 (which will auto-fail almost everything that isn't a Ld test).

They're also good miracle strat fodder from what I've seen. There's a couple rules in the dex you can just toss random MD into and get something out of it irrespective of the value. I'm guessing those are for 1
and 2 disposal.

That's kinda my point though - it's really weird having "Miracle" Dice that are so useless you need special Stratagems and such to give you ways to dispose of them.

And if we didn't gave those strats people would complain about low MD being useless. I'd rather have them than not.

I was more wondering about the practicality of making Miracle Dice automatically 6s, but probably having fewer of them.

Don't know if it would be a better system, I just think it might feel a bit more miraculous.


Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

 vipoid wrote:
I was more wondering about the practicality of making Miracle Dice automatically 6s, but probably having fewer of them.

It exists - ebon chalice can exchange any two dice for a 6, but it's faction locked.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

Why even play 40k if you're going to use basic b***h missile turrets anyway? Just get some world war 2 kits and make pew pew noises.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
The codex has lots of builds, unique mechanics, excellent minis and a lot of flavor. It is also by far the most player dependent army since it can customize bonuses and manage rolls.

Strong or weak only time will tell, but dull? I see no reason for that.

I agree that it's definitely not dull. There are all sorts of things you can do with it, list building itself is going to be fun for a good long time.

I disagree that only time will tell. It's weak. It's a weak codex and it's only going to get weaker as time goes on. You'll have a lot of fun with it but you're going to struggle every game(and some games will be impossible from the jump). And who knows, maybe in 10 years when we get the next codex, that one'll be fun AND strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Argent Shroud has the best version of all the subfaction rules of "movement" of the game, to be honest. Tallarn, Deathguard, Black Legion, etc...

If only it mattered. Ooh, we can get stormbolters places 3.5" faster. neat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

You get more miracle dice than you can use on Acts of Faith in the current book paradigm, so that would have to be reduced if you were buffing AoF to be an after the fact decision. I personally prefer GW's system a great deal; giving you a large number of miracle dice allows it to be more consistent, rolling a 1 is less of an issue when you are going to have more than that one dice.

Getting more miracle dice than you can use is only possible if you believe the 'one AoF one dice' interpretation. Which is not necessarily the correct one, and is in fact implied to be wrong by several other things in the codex.

If you DO believe the 'one dice, one AoF' interpretation, then there's still no reason you should have extra miracle dice. If you can only use one dice per phase, outside of simulacrum that don't really matter because you can only use one dice so why would you waste them on a battle sister squad, then you shouldn't be investing in getting more dice. The 2 dice you're likely to get per turn+ litanies is plenty in a 'one AoF, one dice' system.

You won't take triumph with 'one AoF, one dice', you won't take a battle sanctum, you won't take Our Martyrd lady, you won't use any of the extra dice stratagems, you won't buy intercessor cherubs, you might not even take beacon of faith. The only thing I can see actually being useful in this kind of system would be Ebon Chalice warlord Trait+Litanies, and even that's only because the ebon chalice warlord trait pays for itself and litanies in addition to guaranteeing a 6 miracle dice.

ERJAK wrote:


Getting more miracle dice than you can use is only possible if you believe the 'one AoF one dice' interpretation. Which is not necessarily the correct one, and is in fact implied to be wrong by several other things in the codex.

If you DO believe the 'one dice, one AoF' interpretation, then there's still no reason you should have extra miracle dice. If you can only use one dice per phase, outside of simulacrum that don't really matter because you can only use one dice so why would you waste them on a battle sister squad, then you shouldn't be investing in getting more dice. The 2 dice you're likely to get per turn+ litanies is plenty in a 'one AoF, one dice' system.

You won't take triumph with 'one AoF, one dice', you won't take a battle sanctum, you won't take Our Martyrd lady, you won't use any of the extra dice stratagems, you won't buy intercessor cherubs, you might not even take beacon of faith. The only thing I can see actually being useful in this kind of system would be Ebon Chalice warlord Trait+Litanies, and even that's only because the ebon chalice warlord trait pays for itself and litanies in addition to guaranteeing a 6 miracle dice.

While I can see the value of getting Miracle Dice specifically for Acts of Faith would be lower, maybe (and I'm really stretching here) you'd want to grab then just to pool for a clutch Divine Intervention or Moment of Grace. Kind of a lot of work to then pay CP to pull em off, but at least you don't care what value is on the dice.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:Speaking as a filthy casual, I think (from what I've gathered so far) the dex is...interesting. it seems to have a lot of interesting flavours that appeal to me narritively. Such a large array of relics has me relishing making up new models with them and coming up with stories for each character that wields them.
Yes there are some changes I'm disappointed at- loss of eviscerators and exorcist losing a point of ap and our vehicles going back to being fragile with the loss of the 4++; still no jump pack Cannoness option so my jump pack Cannoness continues to collect dust from witch hunter days.

But overall I'm looking for wears to the new stories I get to make with the new options.

shhhhh dont use the "C" word in this thread.

A lot of the power of the book comes from rules interpretations (e.g. miracle dice).

Sounds like some people are caught up in the whole " Well if its not imperial fists or iron hands equiv its crap "... and the same people will be complaining when both those armies get well needed nerfs

Well considering marines do make up the majority of armies played, it is hard to prove that being worse then marines isn't being kind of a bad.

And it is not just IF and IH. RG are strong too, as are various salamander, IH and ultramarine succesor armies.

BA are looking at least decent too.
Plus one has to remember, that it is going to take a long time till the marine drops come. And codex don't get better with age. A very good codex over time can become only okeyish after some time. But if you start from the okeyish level, then after a year or so, your at the bottom power wise.

Balanced codex are the second worse thing an army can get, to geting a plain bad codex. Necron were balanced, where are they now?

Yeah that is my fear. Sisters are a good balanced dex which is actively bad.

Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

My opinion as well. I am excited to play the new book but I suspect Miracle Dice won't matter one lick to my strategy. They will be 'nice-to-haves', nothing more.

Karol wrote:
Well considering marines do make up the majority of armies played, it is hard to prove that being worse then marines isn't being kind of a bad.

And it is not just IF and IH. RG are strong too, as are various salamander, IH and ultramarine succesor armies.

BA are looking at least decent too.
Plus one has to remember, that it is going to take a long time till the marine drops come. And codex don't get better with age. A very good codex over time can become only okeyish after some time. But if you start from the okeyish level, then after a year or so, your at the bottom power wise.

Balanced codex are the second worse thing an army can get, to geting a plain bad codex. Necron were balanced, where are they now?

Necrons were pretty bad at release, with only about 5 units being any good. You want to talk a good codex being decimated by codex creep just look at Nids. The nid codex was in a decent place at release, now people consider it around the same place as GK and Necrons. I have no doubt the Sisters dex is probably going the same way but I don't play in a super competitive meta so IDGAF.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah that is my fear. Sisters are a good balanced dex which is actively bad.

well maybe not know, plus to be honest my knowladge of the codex is limited as I am to lazy to read the leaked stuff, and no one is testing them at my store right now. But I did notice that codex or options that were balanced or called cool or interesting, do not age well. Inari and eldar in general, up till their nerf, were aging nice. Stuff like castellans or smash captins was and often still is good, and people called both OP. Balanced tacticals with +1A and better bolters, not so much.

Maybe in 6-12 months marines will end up mid tier, but till then marine players are going to have a lot of fun. even if they don't play the most cutting edge tournament list. Now will SoB players have as much fun in 6 -12 months, I don't know. I hope they will.

Necrons were a weird one, they got released to people screaming “OMG it’s OP!” then about a month later it was ‘hot garbage’ presumably once people learned how to deal with destroyers it became worth less than toilet paper to an enlightened few.

 Sim-Life wrote:



Necrons were pretty bad at release, with only about 5 units being any good. You want to talk a good codex being decimated by codex creep just look at Nids. The nid codex was in a decent place at release, now people consider it around the same place as GK and Necrons. I have no doubt the Sisters dex is probably going the same way but I don't play in a super competitive meta so IDGAF.

Not a tyranid specialist, when they were good, I think I was in like my first month of playing, and then deep strike got nerfed. I think tyranids were a good example of one model carry codex. GK could be the same, I did not know that for a long time, but the teleport NDKs have once allowed them to move like interceptors, not just deep strike. And I tell you this, even with the rule of 3, I could still take 3 GM NDK and 3 regular ones, if each one could jump 30" and then fly around like DP, GK would be a much different army.

as tournament goes, it is hard for me to judge if an army is bad for tournaments. I hope that SoB book is good enough though. Good books just stay good long for better, probably better for casual settings and games. Tournament meta can kill some armies, like eldar, when in casual settings they can still stay strong.

phillv85 wrote:
Necrons were a weird one, they got released to people screaming “OMG it’s OP!” then about a month later it was ‘hot garbage’ presumably once people learned how to deal with destroyers it became worth less than toilet paper to an enlightened few.

The online community likes to think they know what they're talking about but unless its super obviously OP/UP they don't have a clue. I remember when Khorne berserkers were going to destroy entire knight armies in one turn under the weight of attacks when Chaos went from Index to Codex and look how that turned out. The problem is they look at rules in a vacuum on planet bowling ball with no objectives and all your rolls are perfectly statistically average.

Also if they are arguing that the unit sucks then the enemy will always hit, wound and you always fail any save you have and suffer max damage. If the argument is that the unit is OP then the assumption is that you don't resist them in any way and just lie down and let enemy do whatever they want with their improbably perfect dice rolls.

Until the codex wins a tournament the people online won't like it.

No one has any experience at this point and yet it's already bad, apparently lol

 Ishagu wrote:
Until the codex wins a tournament the people online won't like it.

No one has any experience at this point and yet it's already bad, apparently lol

No, but overpriced models with bad stats and a limited weapon options is bad. Miracle dice are neat, but you aren't punishing much with them as you have poor stateline models trying to carry meltas into close range. If you aren't using meltas, then you have one overpriced tank to use miracle dice on. Outside of the miracle dice arent doing a whole lot other than keeping models from running/dying on save rerolls.

Overpriced in your opinion. I see plenty to like. The units are durable for the cost and have great damage output, and more in cc than I expected. 100 Battle sisters with bolters and a 3+ save for 900 points. There ware ways to grant them a 4+ invul and to ignore modifiers up to a 2 for ranged attacks.

You can't say anything is overpriced or underpriced until we have more experience with the new book.

If you don't like them in the meantime don't buy them and move on to a different faction. They aren't being forced on you.

Ah yes, the old "just play another faction" comment. Very helpful

That was one point in my comment. I outlined why I disagree with you.

Until more games have been played your opinion is not compelling to me.

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

'Low' miracle dice are good for feeding into the Moment of Grace stratagem, which lets you dump 1-3 miracle dice into a roll after its rolled for +1 per die, which lets you turn an important failed hit/wound/save into a success.

There are some other recycling things here and there, but yes, they're mostly 'nice' rather than amazing.


Personally, the daunting thing about the codex is it looks like it really favors a massive horde of 150+ infantry models with a lot of spamming of specific units and I really don't want to do that, especially since the optimization says that <melee> need to be that color and <HS> have to be the other one, and maybe the ones in the middle dancing about all game can be that middle color. And if you want to try to lean hard on the miracle dice, you have to either create gimmick detachments or go all in.

 Ishagu wrote:
That was one point in my comment. I outlined why I disagree with you.

Until more games have been played your opinion is not compelling to me.

I hope you are correct, because I want Sororitas to be a noticable book that makes a bit of a splash, at least on the casual scene. I don't think it will but I hope it does.

Seems that Sister Superior options have changed a bit. Like Intercessor Sergeants they can now have a melee weapon addition to their bolter and pistol (and as bolters are free you always want one.) All of these can also be traded for better weapons.

What's the current ruling on trading items you have gained via trading? You can do that right? Because Superior can trade their bolter for a bolt pistol and bolt pistols can be traded for better pistols. So this would allow for example dual wielding plasma pistols... Not necessarily super effective, but would look cool.

 Ishagu wrote:
Overpriced in your opinion. I see plenty to like. The units are durable for the cost and have great damage output, and more in cc than I expected. 100 Battle sisters with bolters and a 3+ save for 900 points. There ware ways to grant them a 4+ invul and to ignore modifiers up to a 2 for ranged attacks.

You can't say anything is overpriced or underpriced until we have more experience with the new book.

If you don't like them in the meantime don't buy them and move on to a different faction. They aren't being forced on you.

When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

Never, which makes it an odd claim to make. It was reasonable two editions ago, but... even from the start of 8th edition it wasn't all that durable thanks to weight of fire and even low AP.
Its a downright laughable claim to make now.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:

When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

When they gained the ability to ignore AP -2?

Voss wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I'm a codex defender but think miracle dice are probably a nothing. People act like you will get 5 every turn and they will all be 5s or 6s. As said a lot (with bad luck) will be 1 or 2 and largely worthless. Getting 2 guaranteed 6s a turn is nice for a damage roll or critical charge but it's not going to carry you.

'Low' miracle dice are good for feeding into the Moment of Grace stratagem, which lets you dump 1-3 miracle dice into a roll after its rolled for +1 per die, which lets you turn an important failed hit/wound/save into a success.

There are some other recycling things here and there, but yes, they're mostly 'nice' rather than amazing.


Personally, the daunting thing about the codex is it looks like it really favors a massive horde of 150+ infantry models with a lot of spamming of specific units and I really don't want to do that, especially since the optimization says that <melee> need to be that color and <HS> have to be the other one, and maybe the ones in the middle dancing about all game can be that middle color. And if you want to try to lean hard on the miracle dice, you have to either create gimmick detachments or go all in.

I'd call resurrecting characters better than "nice". People keep claiming snipers are a problem for sisters like a single one can down a character easily but only a few snipers can do that easily and even if they did the ability to go "lol no" and throw away a bunch of 1s and 2s and bring them back with 3 wounds in going to be a source of a lot of frustration. Especially if it was a "last ditch" shot and given the Sister reliance on aura buffs its a great insurance policy.

As for the Sister Horde I'd believe it. GW just prioritised and entire model range to appease all the people who say "I'd love Sisters I would totally start and army IF THEY WERE PLASTIC" so forcing them all to buy 10 $/£/€40 boxes of them to run an effective army is a pretty hilarious way to make them put their money where their mouth is. Yes its gakky, but I have my 100 sisters in good ole metal so once again IDGAF.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

ccs wrote:
Only true if you're using that God-awful looking cartoonish pipe organ abomination. If that was my only option I'd never field an exorcist, no matter what rules it had.
Thankfully though I own 4 of the old FW missel tube kits.

Hey now, the exorcist model is great. More things in 40k should be as silly as the exorcist and the new cannoness on a podium.

Why even play 40k if you're going to use basic b***h missile turrets anyway? Just get some world war 2 kits and make pew pew noises.

Nothing you say will ever make me buy or field a sculpt that I don't like.

Because at heart I'm an IG player (even though I'm not using them atm).
Because WWII lacks Titans, dreadnoughts, SW, Ad-Mech, Khorne demons, etc etc etc

But yes, I do play WWII games (and other historics, some very detailed rules wise), more than I do 40k in fact. Why don't you come join us & play real games where the direction your tank/turret is facing matters, you can't trace LoS from just any old bit of a model, & games last more than two turns?

Also, Missionaries and Preachers have sadly lost most of their weapon options. I thought in an Index friendly environment this would be no problem... except there actually are not Missionaries or Preachers in the Index, there's only a Ministorum Priest and Uriah Jacobus... But I guess those Index datasheets can be technically still used...

 Crimson wrote:
Also, Missionaries and Preachers have sadly lost most of their weapon options. I thought in an Index friendly environment this would be no problem... except there actually are not Missionaries or Preachers in the Index, there's only a Ministorum Priest and Uriah Jacobus... But I guess those Index datasheets can be technically still used...

the problem is, for how long? because we don't know how Warhammer legends will shake out for the Ministorum as a whole. for all we know those index options will be defunct along with the Repressor.

im trying to hold back negativity since people get really touchy about that around here, but this is why i feel let down by all this. out of all the things i wanted for the book, i sort of got one thing, and in exchange...

A fair few weapon options got lost.
An HQ was outright lost.
plus hits occurred to the playstyle i had built for.

and the crux of the new excitement is around orders and playstyles i didn't want to use. I heard all about the sister castle during the beta dex. and yet now im supposed to be excited about horde sisters because AP-2 aura If im willing to go Valorous Heart and cart imagifiers about. or bloody rose because they make not just melee more effective and have the best rules synergies for that, which more of our models are now suited to, but also are likely the best subfaction to employ our deepstrikers. or for a "centerpiece" HQ i also don't want to use due to order incompatability (Junith).

it's great the sisters are in plastic, but why did this book have to remove instead of just add to? why among the new options is everything so restrictively specfic? why couldn't there have been a mono-codex rule to benefit more than half the book by taking that choice (gotta love the ORDER, then sacred rites spots where they overlap, vs where they don't, vs where nothing is)? why couldn't we at least get a jump pack equivalent canoness that isn't a character? (seriously, juniths ride screams Sisters Catacomb command barge dual kit, and they missed it!)

well, we're past that now, and onto seeing what comes of it all. hopefully sisters will do well, and maybe down the line there'll be something i can be more excited about in this. I wonder what the FAQ and errata will bring. oh, and hopefully that puts the Miracle dice thing to rest. personally i just assume it's the weaker interp until otherwise noted.

Yeah, removing options is maddening. When will the Legends happen? I have the ancient plasmagun carrying Missionary by Jes Goodwin that I'd really like to use. At least Uriah's gear is covered by the Missionary's options in the new codex, so that model will remain usable.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, removing options is maddening. When will the Legends happen? I have the ancient plasmagun carrying Missionary by Jes Goodwin that I'd really like to use. At least Uriah's gear is covered by the Missionary's options in the new codex, so that model will remain usable.

True, at least Uriah's model can still be used. still wish we had that HQ choice back for detachments stuff. No idea when legends will happen, but at this point i almost want it to hurry up so i know how it affects each army i like.

I probably wouldn't be so annoyed with some of the option removals if it wasn't for the fact this whole thing is being heralded like a great return. some of the changes invalidate old models made WYSIWYG, like the stormbolter-heavy bolter update on some vehicles (and who do i point at for putting a heavy weapon on immolators anyway!), or the decision to rejig who can take storm bolters removes some of the bolter efficiency which weakens that one strategem we have tied to them in the same year CSM and SM got bolter discipline. Blessed blades alleviates some of the melee kit loss, but thats only because so little in the army can even choose to take stuff and despite it's cost it's darn good- except the new melee squad can't equip the superior with it despite not even needing to model a different sword (and wheres my hammers anyway...). guess im kitting my canoness as a melee build or giving her the relic pistol, since i can't give her much longer ranged, and for some reason despite her rank she disdains every bolter variant except basic and condemnor...

So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

It is new. (And as yet, unreleased) It starts with its six different relics and it can shoot all its Pistols.

It's expected to be a Diorama-ish model

 Crimson wrote:
It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

Okay, that helps a bit. Seems odd to have a datasheet for a model that isn't even out yet.

And, can it fire all 6 bolt pistols per turn? Does it have 6 arms? What even is it?

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

Doesn't it look like the new undead hero diorama, where it loses models when it loses wounds?

 Togusa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It's new. They have not revealed the model yet.

Okay, that helps a bit. Seems odd to have a datasheet for a model that isn't even out yet.

And, can it fire all 6 bolt pistols per turn? Does it have 6 arms? What even is it?

14 attacks, 18 wounds, 6 bolts pistols. How many arms do you bet?

 Togusa wrote:
So I got a look at the codex last night and I have to ask.

What's with the Saint Katherine character? 6 bolt Pistols?! Can it shoot all of them?

It gets to have 6 relics?!

And worst of all, I can't ever, not even in 1st edition, find a model for this data sheet? Is this something that is new?

Its basically the battle reliquary from the old Brettonians. Dead saint being carried around by a bunch of people armed with relics with the damage brackets representing the bearers being "slain" so losing attacks / relics as you go.

you can shoot with all your pistols assuming you dont fire any non pistol weapons (if it has any)

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

Never, which makes it an odd claim to make. It was reasonable two editions ago, but... even from the start of 8th edition it wasn't all that durable thanks to weight of fire and even low AP.
Its a downright laughable claim to make now.

The comment you referenced also talked about the 4+ invul, and the ability to ignore save mods of of up to -2. Also, throw in Hospitallers to resurrect, and the ability to auto 6 save when necessary, plus the never fail morale. Oh, and the deny the witch, while weak on its own, does have a few buffs now which make it usable.

But you know, go right ahead and only mention two things in the list.

PenitentJake wrote:

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Then again, if they really wanted Miracle Dice, they should have them count as rolling 7s.

Yeah... that would be miraculous. So many subsystems would break, as they don't have any way to parse a result that isn't 1-6.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:


When did toughness three and a 3+ armor save become durable in 8th edition?

The comment you referenced also talked about the 4+ invul, and the ability to ignore save mods of of up to -2. Also, throw in Hospitallers to resurrect, and the ability to auto 6 save when necessary, plus the never fail morale. Oh, and the deny the witch, while weak on its own, does have a few buffs now which make it usable.

But you know, go right ahead and only mention two things in the list.

You mean their statline, before you have to add in a bunch of auras and having to use their miracle dice for saves (because you are going to need them for their lack of stats). So yes I will mention the terrible stats that need multiple buffs/auras/miracle dice to make them "durable".