So GW unveiled the next books in line and 3/4 are marine supplements. The other one is still a power armor codex. I just don’t get how anyone could think that four variations of the same army is a good way to usher in the same edition. It’s a slap in the face to anyone who doesn’t play marines. At this point I’m not even in a hurry to see the CSM book just to encourage table variety.
Some other points of concern is that Death Guard looks like a separate bike meaning that Nurgle’s chosen are going to miss out on options again. Guess it’s too bad if you had any Death Guard bikers or havoks. Also anyone want to take a guess at the heavy intercessor price? 3 wound T5 troops sounds a little nuts.
Well it's marine40k. What did you expect? Loyal marines is the master race and they will dominate release schedule. Rest are npc who have to be happy with scrubs.
There will sooner be moment when night doesn't follow day than gw not throwing marines over everything else
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So GW unveiled the next books in line and 3/4 are marine supplements. The other one is still a power armor codex. I just don’t get how anyone could think that four variations of the same army is a good way to usher in the same edition. It’s a slap in the face to anyone who doesn’t play marines. At this point I’m not even in a hurry to see the CSM book just to encourage table variety.
Some other points of concern is that Death Guard looks like a separate bike meaning that Nurgle’s chosen are going to miss out on options again. Guess it’s too bad if you had any Death Guard bikers or havoks. Also anyone want to take a guess at the heavy intercessor price? 3 wound T5 troops sounds a little nuts.
The follow ups are marine supplements, they're small 1 week jobs with no model support that use the marine codex. The first 3 codex for 9th are marines, necrons and death guard. Thats the most popular the worst and the oldest books. It's also an even spread across xenos, imperium and chaos.
But you can easily build a death guard army without a t4 3+ model in sight. They're visually and functionally very different to marines.
Eh. I see it as getting them out of the way, and the DA will follow quickly early next year.
Personally, I see this is good, it gets them done, at the back end of a very strange year.
A Xenos army and Marines, followed by the little fiddly snowflakes and a Chaos army, and then, in early 2021, the last fiddly little snowflake and a different Xenos army.
That's actually a pretty good 40k release schedule for 5-6 months, which includes December (traditionally not much of a release month). Knocking blood angels, wolfs and deathwatch out in November/December is much better than dreading BA eating March, SW eating June and DW eating October of next year. Now we can just get on with things.
Voss wrote: Eh. I see it as getting them out of the way, and the DA will follow quickly early next year.
Personally, I see this is good, it gets them done, at the back end of a very strange year.
If 8th is anything to go by, it might not be 'getting them out of the way' so much as giving them the first release, and giving them another release later, with lots of mini-releases in between.
Remember that Marines were the only faction to get two codices during 8th, in addition to the smaller expansions for things like Phobos. I don't see any credible reason to think that GW's going to just get Marines 'done'.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So GW unveiled the next books in line and 3/4 are marine supplements. The other one is still a power armor codex. I just don’t get how anyone could think that four variations of the same army is a good way to usher in the same edition. It’s a slap in the face to anyone who doesn’t play marines. At this point I’m not even in a hurry to see the CSM book just to encourage table variety.
Some other points of concern is that Death Guard looks like a separate bike meaning that Nurgle’s chosen are going to miss out on options again. Guess it’s too bad if you had any Death Guard bikers or havoks. Also anyone want to take a guess at the heavy intercessor price? 3 wound T5 troops sounds a little nuts.
....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.
also anyone expecting DG to be merged back into C:CSM was kidding themselves. the armies are VERY differant animals
BrianDavion wrote: ....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.
Giving some toys to one otherwise neglected faction isn't going to cure Marine Fatigue by itself if Marines are getting a comparable number of releases that seem far superior from the limited data we have.
I know we all want to complain about so many muhreens at once, but this is clearly because of model release schedules. We're getting Necron and SM books along with Necron and SM model lines. They'll release the various other Xeno books alongside some new models.
DG is likely coming first because it only has a couple new models, whereas CSM will probably have the rest of their new range when it comes.
If they release books for other armies now, then either they're stuck with no model no rules, or they won't include new model's datasheets, and everyone will complain about that too.
It makes sense for them to dump out all the marine books as quickly as they can because the models are already getting released. Other books will follow when their models are up. Looking at how much they're expanding and refreshing the Necrons, we should be optimistic to see range refresh/expansions for other Xenos races too.
Of course, it would be best if they had digital rules online to hold us over until they're ready for the new books. But that's still apparently a bridge too far for GW. Until we get that, we shouldn't think that books being downstream of release schedules is some particular conspiracy to screw over Xenos.
Yeah. Necrons are getting what may be the largest release of new models ever for a faction, and people are just totally oblivious to it.
Marine Player Unable To Understand That People Do Not Play Necrons Or Space Marine Factions; Is Confused That People Are Unhappy They Have Received Nothing For Years, Find Out The Fifteen Reasons Why Inside This Thread
Yeah. Necrons are getting what may be the largest release of new models ever for a faction, and people are just totally oblivious to it.
Marine Player Unable To Understand That People Do Not Play Necrons Or Space Marine Factions; Is Confused That People Are Unhappy They Have Received Nothing For Years, Find Out The Fifteen Reasons Why Inside This Thread
ohhh I get it. People who call for Xenos to be given stuff aren't actually wanting GW to pay more attention to Xenos. they're just selfish little kids who stamp their feet and scream whenever a release isn't for them specificly. I getcha.
Alwrath wrote: These Necron releases are HUGE. Cant wait to see what they do with Eldar/DarkEldar/Tau/Chaos/Tyranids etc next year.
See hwat?
GW's been revamping various lines over time for awhile now Eonfuzz. Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle (the Ork buggy was replaced by 3 or 4 amazing looking new models,). Now Necrons. It's pretty obvious that GW is using space marine sales to fund revamps of other classic lines.
Alwrath wrote: These Necron releases are HUGE. Cant wait to see what they do with Eldar/DarkEldar/Tau/Chaos/Tyranids etc next year.
See hwat?
GW's been revamping various lines over time for awhile now Eonfuzz. Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle (the Ork buggy was replaced by 3 or 4 amazing looking new models,). Now Necrons. It's pretty obvious that GW is using space marine sales to fund revamps of other classic lines.
> Various lines
Literally only Marines and Sisters of Battle
3-4 buggy mono-sculpts are *not* a revamp.
If they were, then it looks like marhreens have had 10+ revamps over the last 2 years, lmfao.
Yeah. Necrons are getting what may be the largest release of new models ever for a faction, and people are just totally oblivious to it.
Marine Player Unable To Understand That People Do Not Play Necrons Or Space Marine Factions; Is Confused That People Are Unhappy They Have Received Nothing For Years, Find Out The Fifteen Reasons Why Inside This Thread
"We want more Xenos releases"
GW: "Okay, here's a giant remake of Necrons!"
"N-no...not THOSE Xenos."
And I'm not a marine player.
Quite a few model ranges have been modernized since I started playing in late 4th, and they aren't all Marines. Currently, Orks, Eldar, and Guard are left behind with many very out of date lines. In the past, model releases were a trickle. But in the last couple of years, we're seeing model releases speed up a huge amount, culminating in the smaller scale releases like AdMech last year still being a bunch of models, and now we're seeing massive releases for Necrons and SM. If we want to see those left behind factions get big refreshes and also new units on par with more up to date factions, we should all be celebrating this change. Instead we've got people whining that GW is also investing into the future of their most popular factions and subfactions.
If this big Necron release wasn't happening, you'd have a point. But it is.
And people are really hyperbolically characterizing opinions that are complaining about this? Like, really? Especially when the supplements aren't required to play a faction?
Yeah. Necrons are getting what may be the largest release of new models ever for a faction, and people are just totally oblivious to it.
Marine Player Unable To Understand That People Do Not Play Necrons Or Space Marine Factions; Is Confused That People Are Unhappy They Have Received Nothing For Years, Find Out The Fifteen Reasons Why Inside This Thread
"We want more Xenos releases"
GW: "Okay, here's a giant remake of Necrons!"
"N-no...not THOSE Xenos."
And I'm not a marine player.
Quite a few model ranges have been modernized since I started playing in late 4th, and they aren't all Marines. Currently, Orks, Eldar, and Guard are left behind with many very out of date lines. In the past, model releases were a trickle. But in the last couple of years, we're seeing model releases speed up a huge amount, culminating in the smaller scale releases like AdMech last year still being a bunch of models, and now we're seeing massive releases for Necrons and SM. If we want to see those left behind factions get big refreshes and also new units on par with more up to date factions, we should all be celebrating this change. Instead we've got people whining that GW is also investing into the future of their most popular factions and subfactions.
If this big Necron release wasn't happening, you'd have a point. But it is.
"Yeah man you get one xenos release for every four marine ones, stop complaining, F U."
And people are really hyperbolically characterizing opinions that are complaining about this? Like, really? Especially when the supplements aren't required to play a faction?
No, the releases are:
Marines
Xenos, and a bigger wave than the marines.
The supplements are not replacing a Xenos codex release, because codex releases are determined by model releases. If they weren't releasing the supplements, you'd still not be getting anything.
And people are really hyperbolically characterizing opinions that are complaining about this? Like, really? Especially when the supplements aren't required to play a faction?
No, the releases are:
Marines
Xenos, and a bigger wave than the marines.
The supplements are not replacing a Xenos codex release, because codex releases are determined by model releases. If they weren't releasing the supplements, you'd still not be getting anything.
Did you just try to disagree with what he said, but at the same time agreed it was all marines?
And people are really hyperbolically characterizing opinions that are complaining about this? Like, really? Especially when the supplements aren't required to play a faction?
No, the releases are:
Marines
Xenos, and a bigger wave than the marines.
The supplements are not replacing a Xenos codex release, because codex releases are determined by model releases. If they weren't releasing the supplements, you'd still not be getting anything.
And people are really hyperbolically characterizing opinions that are complaining about this? Like, really? Especially when the supplements aren't required to play a faction?
No, the releases are:
Marines
Xenos, and a bigger wave than the marines.
The supplements are not replacing a Xenos codex release, because codex releases are determined by model releases. If they weren't releasing the supplements, you'd still not be getting anything.
Did you just try to disagree with what he said, but at the same time agreed it was all marines?
Okay.
Did you just ignore a really important distinction just so you can keep complaining?
I would predict that we'll see books that aren't coming with big releases come out pretty fast, with the next big model wave starting in the spring to update one of the most deficient factions. Chaos Marines will probably get a moderate model release to continue their ongoing range refresh, perhaps before that.
I'll repeat: If the supplements weren't coming out, you still wouldn't be seeing Xenos range refreshes yet. Models and Books are different departments.
In the grim darkness of the far future there are only marines..
I hope this all means they will just churn out all the SM books over the next 6 months(supplament or codex is the same thing to people who get neither..) and not drag this out any more.. People to play indomitus heresy 42k with their marines in peace for the next year while everyone keeps playing warhammer 40k 9th edition with their npc factions.
From GW: "there are four more books planned for this year alone! Among them are three codex supplements designed to ensure that those Chapters who are the most divergent from the Codex Astartes aren’t left behind, along with an update to the oldest of the Heretic Astartes codexes."
Plus
"Dark Angels fans won’t have to wait much longer – your codex supplement will be on its way early next year, along with the first xenos codex of 2021."
So yes. . . we do know them.
Marines
Xenos
Marines
Marines
Marines
Bad Marines
Marines
Xenos
The order might be a little off, but we do know what the next releases are.
From GW: "there are four more books planned for this year alone! Among them are three codex supplements designed to ensure that those Chapters who are the most divergent from the Codex Astartes aren’t left behind, along with an update to the oldest of the Heretic Astartes codexes."
Plus
"Dark Angels fans won’t have to wait much longer – your codex supplement will be on its way early next year, along with the first xenos codex of 2021."
So yes. . . we do know them.
Marines
Xenos
Marines
Marines
Marines
Bad Marines
Marines
Xenos
The order might be a little off, but we do know what the next releases are.
I assume you meant beyond what they've already said.
How long are you going to ignore this:
I'll repeat: If the supplements weren't coming out, you still wouldn't be seeing Xenos range refreshes yet. Models and Books are different departments.
It seems that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only whining. ...this is not the 40K I remember from the 90's and aughts.
Someone please tell me that matches these days aren't filled with what I've seen in this and other recent threads. I had been thinking of dusting off my old marines and returning to the tabletop again but I have no interest in being whined at constantly.
Nehvar wrote: It seems that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only whining. ...this is not the 40K I remember from the 90's and aughts.
Someone please tell me that matches these days aren't filled with what I've seen in this and other recent threads. I had been thinking of dusting off my old marines and returning to the tabletop again but I have no interest in being whined at constantly.
Well, you're off to a good start.
I played in the 90s and 00s too. The difference then was that Marines weren't 80+% of all releases. You're seeing the inevitable resentment from how GW has gone all-in on Marines for the past three years. Throw in meta-dominating rules on top of the constant release schedule, and yeah, it's a recipe for salt.
Will you actually see it in the real world? Maybe, maybe not. Dakka represents a very particular demographic of 40K players. But I have seen- out in the real world- non-Marine players prefer to play against other non-Marine players. That said, if you're not Primaris, you're a lot less likely to have issues.
I won't refuse games on the basis of faction. I prefer not to gatekeep players on account of GW's issues. But I'll still express my issues online.
I have no idea why this can't be viewed other than a good thing. Any other period in time, sure, I could completely understand and sympathize with the displeasure. However, Covid is still in play, games are not back at full yet (same with tournaments), so lets get the marine boner out of the way so that when we are finally back to some form of normalcy, the only codexes in the pipeline will be non marine (except the chaos variety of course).
I do wish that DA was in this group (so BA and DA together, SW and DW together, and DG separate) then they could all have been out the way by Xmas.
Now we can look forward to what 2021 will bring (first Xenos book..orks, nids, GSC?) I'm just hoping that Eldar get a massive range update, Drukhari get a slew of HQ options, and Harlequins get 1-2 new datahseets. If marines can have 98 datasheets, surely harlequins can have more than 8 (with 4 of those being characters).
Also interested to see what GW are going to do with Ynnari. i feel they are going to be a decent expansion, purely based on the PA fluff which predicted the Necron rise, and Stern/Kyganil meeting with Yvraine who promised to return to meet the rising Necron threat.
2020 has been a real funk, so let's ride it out...get the marines out of the way, and hopefully 2021 will bring some better news and gameplay for 9th.
Okay, so here's the thing: It's not 'please remake anybody but Marines and we'll be happy'. It's more like 'return to the old paradigm of Marines getting more attention because they're the poster boys, but not hogging attention constantly, and put everyone at the same balance level, without Marines eroding the faction identity of everyone else'. Not as pithy, I'll admit. A makeover for Necrons is great- now, are the Marine releases tapering off? Are the new Necrons up to the same standards as Marines, rules-wise? To both questions, the answer seems to be no.
And here's what I've noticed about the Necron releases- every single one was accompanied by additional Marine releases. The Sisters releases were accompanied by Marine releases. Then Marines also get their own releases. Give us a good wave of xenos releases while Marines get fething nothing and then I'll start to believe that things are changing. If the new Marine codex is a general nerf to the faction, I'll believe things are changing. But I'm not going to be satisfied until I see results.
I'm happy for Necron players. I'm happy for players who are now picking up Necrons. But I play Tyranids and Astra Militarum. And Tyranids haven't had a release since 2014, and I don't think Astra Militarum are any better. Am I supposed to be happy? Six years is a long time.
Maybe I sound angry or upset. I'm really not. I just don't buy new product. And I'm not going to cheerlead for GW throwing a bone to Necrons while, seemingly, also ensuring that Marines get equivalent releases while maintaining superior rules. As of today, it looks like Custodes are next on the list of factions whose identity (in this case, T5/W3 basic infantry) is being assimilated by Marines.
How crazy is it that I've gotten more regular support for my non-Marine armies in Horus Heresy than in 40K?
Okay, so here's the thing: It's not 'please remake anybody but Marines and we'll be happy'. It's more like 'return to the old paradigm of Marines getting more attention because they're the poster boys, but not hogging attention constantly, and put everyone at the same balance level, without Marines eroding the faction identity of everyone else'. Not as pithy, I'll admit. A makeover for Necrons is great- now, are the Marine releases tapering off? Are the new Necrons up to the same standards as Marines, rules-wise? To both questions, the answer seems to be no.
I've got no disagreement with that. I'm just trying to keep some perspective. Marines have gotten a lot of attention, but part of that is because they were broken for most of 8th, and then overpowered. They've gotten some extra attention that others probably wouldn't have gotten. But at the end of the day, that doesn't necessarily mean that its come at the cost of anyone else. And even if it has a little bit, we've still seen a more rapid increase in model release speed and quantity than ever before. (If anyone has numbers on amount of releases, I'd be interested. I remember how slooow everything was in 5th, for example. I'd wager non-marines are still getting releases faster since 8th than anyone was getting in 5th/6th.)
Personally, I am really fed up. I'm jut not fed up over the newest stuff. I've been mad with the state of my factions, Chaos Marines and Dark Eldar since the early days of 8th. My DE army (mostly warriors in raiders and Reavers) got gutted, and while DE has had viable lists in 8th, they've had the various HQ issues, and none of those viable lists have much overlapped with my collection. And marine infantry of all types was pretty useless most of 8th until the new SM codex, but that didn't do my Chaos any good. And now we're still going to wait awhile for a new CSM codex too. So I know what it feels like to be left out.
But I also realize that this focus on marines was started when they decided to to Primaris in 8th (which i think was a bad move), and we're still waiting for that to wrap up. And at least the game overall seems to have moved in a better direction with 9th, and I like the level of options and detail that marines are getting and hoping for everyone else to get similar.
So overall, I get why people are upset, but I think they're mad about the wrong things. 8th was a disaster in many ways, and now we're starting to see those issues fixed. We should be glad about that. Its a slow process. It probably would have been better if the new Necron wave was half the size, and we got half a new wave for Orks or Eldar instead. But this seems to be what the model team has chosen. So let's be optimistic that other factions will get treated as well as Necrons in the long run. (Of course, their rules might still be a problem, but that's a whole other issue.)
I've got no disagreement with that. I'm just trying to keep some perspective. Marines have gotten a lot of attention, but part of that is because they were broken for most of 8th, and then overpowered
They've gotten the attention because GW is trying a seamless retool and revamp of the balance, IP, and God Knows What Else involved in the army. They're basically introducing an entirely new Army while trying to avoid shutting the army down for however long that takes. That makes it take longer while keeping the most popular army(armies) on the table to play against.
I'll repeat: If the supplements weren't coming out, you still wouldn't be seeing Xenos range refreshes yet. Models and Books are different departments.
Models is not what I care about right now. At the moment what I care about is the erosion of stats/identities/etc. of other armies in favor of marines. When people complain about things like Eradicators, we get posts that say "Just wait, man, we don't know yet." We'd see how that was going to play out sooner if books other than Marine books were coming out.
But when formerly "tough-identity" Necron troops top out at 1W, and Marines are now getting 3W troops, I'm not exactly enthusiastic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nehvar wrote: It seems that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only whining. ...this is not the 40K I remember from the 90's and aughts.
Someone please tell me that matches these days aren't filled with what I've seen in this and other recent threads. I had been thinking of dusting off my old marines and returning to the tabletop again but I have no interest in being whined at constantly.
You're probably not going to be whined at playing classic marines. I play them to, btw.
Xenos with major range update
Marine expansion
Marine Supplement with no known models
Marine Supplement with no known models
Chaos supplement with two known models
Marine Supplement with no known models
And that's just for 40K. Then there are all the AOS, Warcry, Necromonda, Underworlds and what no releases.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I like how there's no mention of the new marine model releases either.
In fact, the warhammer community post has five Necron model releases, and six Marine ones.
I saw this:
GW Community wrote:We’ve already shown you some of the brand-new Adeptus Astartes units, but to save you from struggling to identify all 98 units, we’re going to show the rest right now!
and I'm already queasy. Are the Bladeguard Captain and Lieutenant not new because they didn't get sprue upgrades like the Assault Intercessors and Eradicators? Are they not going to be in the codex?
Just did a quick count of the current e-codex, so I may have missed one or counted one twice as I scroll and count at the time time, but I came up with 76 sheets. Add 8 new ones (I think the Chaplain is still the same data sheet) from Indomitus you're at 84. Another freaking Primaris Captain is 85. 3 Speeders is 88. That leaves 10. Was there another boxed set with new stuff after the second codex? Did I miscount by 10? Did they actually not show us all the new stuff? Did some of the other codex unique stuff jump over to the main codex instead of their eventual supplement so it's not technically "new"? Did more than 10 of these sheets jump that way, and some of the old sheets went to legends?
sur except every necron unit on that page is something totally new.
Let's look at what's displayed here.
Necron stuff:
-Silent king (new model, we've seen it before but it's new)
-Ophyrdron Destroyers - pretty sure this is ANOTHER new type of destroyer and one we've not seen before
-Flayed one - Likewise totally new, we'd never seen this before and it's a suprise (this I belive means the Necrons can join the ranks of armies that are 100% plastic excluding the odd character, something thanks to TFCs not even marines can claim)
- Chronomancer and Psychomancer - two new types of cryptics never seen before.
of the 5 necron units, 4 where literally unseen before and 1 which we've seen before didn't come out in Indomatus.
Now Marine Stuff:
- Gravis Captain - this is genuinely new, although we've seen it before thanks to some eagle eyed spotters earlier on.
- Heavy Intercessors - Likewise genuinely new
- Eliminators - we've already seen this before as they are in indomatus, but it's a new kit so it's good to know these guys aren't going to be unavaliable outside the Indomatus Box
- Blade Guard Vets - we've seen this kit previewed before, so it's really nothing.
- Assault Intercessors - Likewise they came out in Indomatus, it's good to know about the sergant options though.
- Storm Speeder varients - Genuinely new.
so yeah we saw more Marine stuff, but the necrons stuff is all brand new never before seen things, so I'd say that balances out. IMHO both armies had some neat stuff previewed.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I like how there's no mention of the new marine model releases either.
In fact, the warhammer community post has five Necron model releases, and six Marine ones.
I saw this:
GW Community wrote:We’ve already shown you some of the brand-new Adeptus Astartes units, but to save you from struggling to identify all 98 units, we’re going to show the rest right now!
and I'm already queasy. Are the Bladeguard Captain and Lieutenant not new because they didn't get sprue upgrades like the Assault Intercessors and Eradicators? Are they not going to be in the codex?
Just did a quick count of the current e-codex, so I may have missed one or counted one twice as I scroll and count at the time time, but I came up with 76 sheets. Add 8 new ones (I think the Chaplain is still the same data sheet) from Indomitus you're at 84. Another freaking Primaris Captain is 85. 3 Speeders is 88. That leaves 10. Was there another boxed set with new stuff after the second codex? Did I miscount by 10? Did they actually not show us all the new stuff? Did some of the other codex unique stuff jump over to the main codex instead of their eventual supplement so it's not technically "new"? Did more than 10 of these sheets jump that way, and some of the old sheets went to legends?
just as worrying, no multi-part outrider kit. THAT scares me
just as worrying, no multi-part outrider kit. THAT scares me
I'm worried they'll be discontinued, but I don't worry they won't be multipart. They won't be that difficult to customize when you only really have the one arm to customize, the rest of the model pretty much has to be static - sitting in the saddle, two boots on the pedals, at least one hand on the handlebars... Not a lot of posing options, so add some cosmetic frills and some alternate arms and the kit isn't going to change much if at all.
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Racerguy180 wrote: the techmarine, gladiator tank, firestrike turret & hammerfall come to mind.
Those would be brand new, but the post said they were going to show us all the new stuff right now. I don't see a techmarine, tank, or turrets aside from the ones on the speeders and those have similar but different names suggesting a naming convention but not a datasheet. Are they in there and they just forgot to tell/show us something or are they still waiting in limbo with the Marine ATV thing for some upcoming boxed set?
Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
Hey look you just gotta strip out everything with marine in and...
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
Hey look you just gotta strip out everything with marine in and...
Xenos
W o w! Can people stop complaining already??
You know what you're right, let's start counting white dwarf articles, black library releases and warhammer community articles as well.
Point is there are 3 codex out this year, accept it, be thankful and move on. Rushing out model free xenos codex wouldn't please people.
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
Lol you know there's going to be constant marine releases scattered in there.
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
Lol you know there's going to be constant marine releases scattered in there.
After the dark angels supplement, what is there left to release?
just as worrying, no multi-part outrider kit. THAT scares me
I'm worried they'll be discontinued, but I don't worry they won't be multipart.
Yeah, that makes sooo much sense.
What in the world would lead you to that conclusion when....
Mono-build or multi, they'll just come out later. Like oh say.... When the DA book arrives next year. (and I'll bet a White Scars book comes out near the same time). You know, since both the DA & WS are well known for their bike formations. Oh look, GW just coveniently has a new bike unit that can piggyback with these books release-wise for max hype.
just as worrying, no multi-part outrider kit. THAT scares me
I'm worried they'll be discontinued, but I don't worry they won't be multipart.
Yeah, that makes sooo much sense.
What in the world would lead you to that conclusion when....
Mono-build or multi, they'll just come out later. Like oh say.... When the DA book arrives next year. (and I'll bet a White Scars book comes out near the same time). You know, since both the DA & WS are well known for their bike formations. Oh look, GW just coveniently has a new bike unit that can piggyback with these books release-wise for max hype.
Given they've said that the current Supplements will continue as-is, why would you suspect a WS book early next year?
just as worrying, no multi-part outrider kit. THAT scares me
I'm worried they'll be discontinued, but I don't worry they won't be multipart.
Yeah, that makes sooo much sense.
I meant it would be more likely they get the Suppressor treatment than get a posable model kit. There isn't enough to pose.
What in the world would lead you to that conclusion when....
Mono-build or multi, they'll just come out later. Like oh say.... When the DA book arrives next year. (and I'll bet a White Scars book comes out near the same time). You know, since both the DA & WS are well known for their bike formations. Oh look, GW just coveniently has a new bike unit that can piggyback with these books release-wise for max hype.
If Outriders become the Primaris bikes, they'll be in the main Codex, and get a kit now, not with the Supplements. The starter set comes with them, so I really really doubt they're getting the Suppressor treatment. I think they're getting a stand alone kit and nothing changes. I do think there's a surprise or two on the datasheets they didn't show us. Outriders can do 3+3 or even 3+3+3. Eradicators can do 3+3 stuff like that. They worked awful hard to show you parts of datasheets but not that kind of stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given they were in Indomitus that sold like hotcakes plus the starter sets, I expect they get a stand alone, but not for a while as people who want them likely already have them.
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
You’re making 2 massive assumptions:
most of the supplements already released came with a new model
That all the xenos codexes will be getting models. I highly doubt that GSC for example will be getting more models this soon, tyranids haven’t got a single hint of a new model in a long time
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: So GW unveiled the next books in line and 3/4 are marine supplements. The other one is still a power armor codex. I just don’t get how anyone could think that four variations of the same army is a good way to usher in the same edition. It’s a slap in the face to anyone who doesn’t play marines. At this point I’m not even in a hurry to see the CSM book just to encourage table variety.
Some other points of concern is that Death Guard looks like a separate bike meaning that Nurgle’s chosen are going to miss out on options again. Guess it’s too bad if you had any Death Guard bikers or havoks. Also anyone want to take a guess at the heavy intercessor price? 3 wound T5 troops sounds a little nuts.
When I was little, we were taught: Patience is a virtue. I guess that isn't the case anymore.
Let's see what comes before we decide to shoot the messenger. There are a lot of 40K things in the rumor mill, many of them don't look like marines.
Although I am a bit tired of the glut of Power Armor(yet happy DG gets an early release) I do think there is a potential silver lining GW willing. With this last reveal of SM stuff they've kinda filled up all the slots for Primaris and made the Firstborn-Primaris upgrade a near future possibility. At this point the only thing they can release for Space Marines are character sculpts meaning that there should be design slots opening up for more non-Marine stuff.
I mean, if they do more big releases of Marine stuff like this they will just be watering down the line that currently stands at what 95 entries? At this point we have a primaris equivalent for every Firstborn model except maybe the Whirlwind and obscure stuff no one uses like the Stalker. Maybe Terminators, but that depends on how they view Aggressors and Gravis armor in relation to them.
Eldarsif wrote: Although I am a bit tired of the glut of Power Armor(yet happy DG gets an early release) I do think there is a potential silver lining GW willing. With this last reveal of SM stuff they've kinda filled up all the slots for Primaris and made the Firstborn-Primaris upgrade a near future possibility. At this point the only thing they can release for Space Marines are character sculpts meaning that there should be design slots opening up for more non-Marine stuff.
I mean, if they do more big releases of Marine stuff like this they will just be watering down the line that currently stands at what 95 entries? At this point we have a primaris equivalent for every Firstborn model except maybe the Whirlwind and obscure stuff no one uses like the Stalker. Maybe Terminators, but that depends on how they view Aggressors and Gravis armor in relation to them.
A lot of characters left, plus aircraft. Primaris don't have a fighter/bomber or a Transport aircraft. And I am absolutely devastated that a Storm Raven can carry around a Dread hanging on to the rear ramp, but G isn't allowed to do that. Some stuff has been hinted/leaked but it also wasn't in this list from GW so it's not finished yet. Unless they just considered stuff that hasnt already leaked "new". The ATV/Attack Bike replacement. The tank, a few others. But they'll almost certainly be out this edition. When/If they're ready we're going to see a tidal wave of characters from the Big Four get Primaris sculpts
The Bellicatus launcher on the Impulsor does the Whirlwind and the.. Hunter? Stalker? The Missile launching anti air.
Insectum7 wrote: Models is not what I care about right now. At the moment what I care about is the erosion of stats/identities/etc. of other armies in favor of marines.
This is true, but even standalone chapters may lose their identity (and all the primaris kits released so far kinda confirm that), especially if their supplement gets released several months after the SM codex. I simply refuse to play SW with a generic SM codex, I'll shelve them until I get the full rules.
I don't play SM.
Alternatively I can ask my opponent if he lets me play with 8th codex and SotB until I get the new supplement. That's why I think releasing supplements shortly after the codex it's actually a good thing.
Insectum7 wrote: Models is not what I care about right now. At the moment what I care about is the erosion of stats/identities/etc. of other armies in favor of marines.
This is true, but even standalone chapters may lose their identity (and all the primaris kits released so far kinda confirm that), especially if their supplement gets released several months after the SM codex. I simply refuse to play SW with a generic SM codex, I'll shelve them until I get the full rules.
I don't play SM.
Alternatively I can ask my opponent if he lets me play with 8th codex and SotB until I get the new supplement. That's why I think releasing supplements shortly after the codex it's actually a good thing.
I think they should release all the supplements at the same time as the codex. All the Supplement really is is an extra chapter so instead of buying one of 5 different book versions like they did with the Collectors Space Marine Codex a while back, you just buy the main book and the appropriate extra chapter.
Frontloading power armour Codexes at the start of an edition is basically standard operating procedure and has been like that ever since I remember (back in 3rd)
Hell, the release schedule for that was Marines, Blood Angels, CSM and Dark Angels. The first non-power armour Codex was either Guard and Eldar. And this was in the days of waiting 2-3 months between Codex releases.
Dudeface wrote: Right, give me the release schedules and strip out the supplements since they're almost 100% guaranteed to be model free filler releases alongside something else.
You get:
Marines
Crons
Death Guard
Oh look it's a fair spread and thats over a 2 month window.
Unless you want all those precious none imperium books releasing with 0 model support just to rush them out in a 2 month window, quit whining.
You’re making 2 massive assumptions:
most of the supplements already released came with a new model
That all the xenos codexes will be getting models. I highly doubt that GSC for example will be getting more models this soon, tyranids haven’t got a single hint of a new model in a long time
I'm not assuming all xenos will, but if they were rushed in front of the supplements or into this year, the odds of it are dramatically reduced. Likewise it is possible there might be an upgrade sprue or something but that's probably it.
Eldarsif wrote: Although I am a bit tired of the glut of Power Armor(yet happy DG gets an early release) I do think there is a potential silver lining GW willing. With this last reveal of SM stuff they've kinda filled up all the slots for Primaris and made the Firstborn-Primaris upgrade a near future possibility. At this point the only thing they can release for Space Marines are character sculpts meaning that there should be design slots opening up for more non-Marine stuff.
I hate to pour salt on your candle of optimism, but I feel obliged to point out that Primaris only exist in the first place because GWalready ran out of SM slots. Hence why they started making the entire range again, except bulkier this time.
Hence, running out of SM slots (even if true, which I highly doubt), doesn't mean no more SM releases. It just means GW contriving a reason to remake the entire line again.
Alwrath wrote: These Necron releases are HUGE. Cant wait to see what they do with Eldar/DarkEldar/Tau/Chaos/Tyranids etc next year.
Well quite. There must be at least one Dark Eldar HQ left that GW hasn't pointlessly remade in lieu of any meaningful release.
Or maybe we could get a release of Vect, except only playable in Marine armies. Because he's seen which way the wind is blowing and realises that Dark Eldar have no future. Best join the winning side while he still can.
I hate to pour salt on your candle of optimism, but I feel obliged to point out that Primaris only exist in the first place because GW already ran out of SM slots. Hence why they started making the entire range again, except bulkier this time.
Hence, running out of SM slots (even if true, which I highly doubt), doesn't mean no more SM releases. It just means GW contriving a reason to remake the entire line again.
I am not cynical enough to think like that. I feel Primaris is Primaris because they wanted to truescale the models while simultaneously encourage buying of those units. The main thing that is missing Primaris equivalents now are bespoke Chapter units like Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and so on. It will be interesting if GW decides to go full on upgrading units that are maybe not as generic as the current Primaris units.
There's been a persistant rumor that Primaris where first started under Kirby as a "yeah just replace Marine stuff" and that Rountree has attempted to "make the best of the situation"
BrianDavion wrote: There's been a persistant rumor that Primaris where first started under Kirby as a "yeah just replace Marine stuff" and that Rountree has attempted to "make the best of the situation"
Hahahahahahha it was bound to happen ! All those people that wanted supplement and not separated codex have what they wanted. GW cannot release SM codex and not the specific rule for all the chapters.
Get ready for 20 + new primaris release and a supplement for all the chapters. We're going to eat SM until 2022.
WhiteDog wrote: Hahahahahahha it was bound to happen ! All those people that wanted supplement and not separated codex have what they wanted. GW cannot release SM codex and not the specific rule for all the chapters.
Get ready for 20 + new primaris release and a supplement for all the codexes. We're going to eat SM until 2022.
I am both sympathetic and entertained by the people who now realize that means they may lose some of their divergent flavor.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.
Giving some toys to one otherwise neglected faction isn't going to cure Marine Fatigue by itself if Marines are getting a comparable number of releases that seem far superior from the limited data we have.
*some toys*
it's closer to an entire re-release of the model line with lots of new models. It's ok to be frustrated at the burst of marine models, I don't agree, but different opinions make things fun. But to say "some toys" is diminutive and not at all represents the work they have done with Necrons that we have seen thus far.
I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
BrianDavion wrote: ....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.
Giving some toys to one otherwise neglected faction isn't going to cure Marine Fatigue by itself if Marines are getting a comparable number of releases that seem far superior from the limited data we have.
*some toys*
it's closer to an entire re-release of the model line with lots of new models. It's ok to be frustrated at the burst of marine models, I don't agree, but different opinions make things fun. But to say "some toys" is diminutive and not at all represents the work they have done with Necrons that we have seen thus far.
Its not really a burst of marine releases. More like a torrent. A torrent that's lasted nearly 3 years.
When people complained about 9th about Marines the answer was that GW would surely release other codexes quickly. Now we know there is only Necrons for 2020.
And oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you if you think front loading all marines now means their will not be drip marine units released throughout 2021...
GW makes it clear, play marines or get out.
Think its time I look at AoS instead of finishing my GSC or Nids.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Ordana wrote: When people complained about 9th about Marines the answer was that GW would surely release other codexes quickly. Now we know there is only Necrons for 2020.
Necrons, Death Guard, and C: Space Marines plus three supplements.
Those three supplements mean that three codices have been taken out of the release schedule. In case you missed how supplements dropped last year, it was 2 per week with some kits to stagger out rather than frontload the Marine releases...but it remains to be seen whether that part will remain in play for this go-around. There are more kits this time around that are tied to the main Codex rather than supplements(last time it was Phobos LT, Eliminators, Incursor/Infiltrator box, single-pack release of Librarian and Captain in Phobos, Invictor Warsuit, and the Impulsor) which seemed to be how they opted to pad things out as otherwise the supplements were a single character and an upgrade sprue(unless you were Ultramarines, naturally!).
Given the size of Necrons and Marines for releases though? I wouldn't be shocked if these two go into December. Death Guard looks to have just the hero and the terrain piece plus maybe finally a Start Collecting set using the Dark Imperium components.
And oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you if you think front loading all marines now means their will not be drip marine units released throughout 2021...
lol, it's funny because people said that about psychic awakening too...yet the faction that saw the most releases was Mechanicus.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Because who cares if a faction you don't play gets something? Novel idea maybe a necron player should be happy at all their attention, as a primarily chaos marine player, it has no bearing on me how many units the marine codex has.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Because who cares if a faction you don't play gets something? Novel idea maybe a necron player should be happy at all their attention, as a primarily chaos marine player, it has no bearing on me how many units the marine codex has.
I'm a necron player. Have been from their first codex. I would have rather Eldar been the big focus of the 9th launch with revamped Aspect Warriors etc. I would have been happy if 9th Ed necrons was just plastic pariahs and flayed ones.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Because who cares if a faction you don't play gets something? Novel idea maybe a necron player should be happy at all their attention, as a primarily chaos marine player, it has no bearing on me how many units the marine codex has.
I'm a necron player. Have been from their first codex. I would have rather Eldar been the big focus of the 9th launch with revamped Aspect Warriors etc. I would have been happy if 9th Ed necrons was just plastic pariahs and flayed ones.
Very polite of you but again it doesn't stop Eldar having a big release. But if they do/don't it doesn't impact your army.
Very polite of you but again it doesn't stop Eldar having a big release. But if they do/don't it doesn't impact your army.
Didn't realise GW have unlimited resources and overhaul multiple factions a year. The odds on Eldar getting a big revamp are very dramatically reduced due to the big necron release waves.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Because not getting something isn't GW snubbing you. I'm a Sister of Battle Player. I have been since 4th edition. While I was never pleased that I wasn't getting plastic models all those years, I've never begrudged any faction a release. Why? Because they can't release something for everyone all the time, unless you want to see a one kit a year faction drip.
My reward for patiently waiting was a full faction renewal. While there are a few ancillary units in Codex Adepta Sororitas that are still hanging around from before, the range is in all new fantastic plastic kits. And GW got their reward when I refreshed all my infantry models with the new plastic kits and am now slowing expanding into units I never purchased before because of the nasty old metal kits.
Now it's the Necron's turn. GW is pushing out double digit new unit kits for Necrons including refreshed and new kits between Indomitus and multipart kits. I want this for every faction that doesn't have recent models or a decent range of models. Excluding the ever oppressive Space Marines, GW is now in the midst of the third major update or expansion of a faction this year. Sure, two were Imperial (Sisters and Adeptus Mechanicus) but they weren't marines.
Let's hope next years first Xenos is a big release also. It s a better us of your time and energy than whinging about the latest space marine release. GW got to pay those bills and nothing sells like space marines.
It's amusing how many people claim that Death Guard are the same as marines in the same post that is complaining about how a necron release is not an eldar release.
Some codices are going to be first and some are going to be last. Space Marines are going to be both.
DG is objectively a rather good choice for an early codex because they have a really old one with many odd problems due to that age (cue: worthless legion trait) and because many of their signature weapons are upgraded versions of imperium weaponry which would turn into downgraded versions because they aren't getting auto-updated like many other armies are.
Having all marines reduced to supplements also means that the next slew of campaign books will not have to spend have its pages on reprinting datasheets with slightly different keywords.
Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
Jidmah wrote: It's amusing how many people claim that Death Guard are the same as marines in the same post that is complaining about how a necron release is not an eldar release.
Some codices are going to be first and some are going to be last. Space Marines are going to be both.
DG is objectively a rather good choice for an early codex because they have a really old one with many odd problems due to that age (cue: worthless legion trait) and because many of their signature weapons are upgraded versions of imperium weaponry which would turn into downgraded versions because they aren't getting auto-updated like many other armies are.
Having all marines reduced to supplements also means that the next slew of campaign books will not have to spend have its pages on reprinting datasheets with slightly different keywords.
I couldn't agree more.
I'm really glad the DG are getting some early attention, they spent 8th with a codex that felt very rushed (Chaos Lord without DR......really?), and very few strategems, and they have a interesting style aesthethic. Considering how the format of 9th suits the DG's strengths, I expect them to be a yardstick for the strength of other codexes.
Ordana wrote: When people complained about 9th about Marines the answer was that GW would surely release other codexes quickly. Now we know there is only Necrons for 2020.
And oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you if you think front loading all marines now means their will not be drip marine units released throughout 2021...
GW makes it clear, play marines or get out.
Think its time I look at AoS instead of finishing my GSC or Nids.
Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.
Very polite of you but again it doesn't stop Eldar having a big release. But if they do/don't it doesn't impact your army.
Didn't realise GW have unlimited resources and overhaul multiple factions a year. The odds on Eldar getting a big revamp are very dramatically reduced due to the big necron release waves.
The sheer volume of kits they make each year is staggering, they cover multiple factions for multiple games every year. We saw marines twice and then some, chaos marines, daemons twice, admech, knights, a singular chaos knight, entire sisters range, death guard from scratch, orks and stealer cults alongside some kits for eldar and dark eldar in 8th.
Yes there is capacity for a large eldar release next calendar year.
alextroy wrote: *Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
I am very happy with the Necron release, but I am a bit perplexed by the idea that a lot of what appears to SM players think that Xenos is some sort of a mega-faction like Space Marines or even Imperium.
I would love nothing more than if GW would allow all of the Xenos races to ally and fight against the encroachment of the Imperium, but as it is now there is very little to no overlap between Xenos factions. A necron release is not going to do me any good if I want to play Craftworlds or Tyranids.
I'm a necron player. Have been from their first codex. I would have rather Eldar been the big focus of the 9th launch with revamped Aspect Warriors etc. I would have been happy if 9th Ed necrons was just plastic pariahs and flayed ones.
At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.
Kanluwen wrote: Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
DG don't have havocs though, Mortarion firmly believes that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry.
Kanluwen wrote: Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
Death Guard is the oldest Codex right now so I am not that surprised they decided to redo it early on.
I agree that it would be great if more CSM offerings would find their way into the codex. I find it a bit sad that DG players have to resort to FW offerings just to get some decent firepower.
Eldarsif wrote: Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.
AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.
I'm really glad the DG are getting some early attention, they spent 8th with a codex that felt very rushed (Chaos Lord without DR......really?), and very few strategems, and they have a interesting style aesthethic. Considering how the format of 9th suits the DG's strengths, I expect them to be a yardstick for the strength of other codexes.
I am cautiously optimistic about the new Death Guard codex. War of the Spider did wonders to fix some weird issues in the DG codex and has made the playing experience with them much more positive.
Eldarsif wrote: Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.
AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.
AoS 2.0 has been nothing but excellent with a few pitfalls here and there(*cough* Slaanesh). Feels like there is a clearer picture of what they(GW) want from AoS compared to 40k.
The real test is going to be next year when I expect AoS 3.0 to hit. Will be interesting to see what GW decides to do.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
So here's the thing, I'm a Necron player myself and I still wish that they hadn't given so many new models to Necrons (or at least not so early on, likely at the expense of other factions).
I mean, it's nice that the range is being expanded, but Necrons already had a substantial expansion of their range in 5th, plus all the new models revealed a month or so ago. Did they really need all these new ones as well?
To be clear, I don't object to Necrons getting more models. However, it just seems a bit silly to be giving more models to a faction that already had a perfectly good range, when you've got factions like the aforementioned Harlequins with just 8 models to their name. Or Dark Eldar, which had most of its HQs and characters stripped away and has yet to receive even a single new unit to replace them. Contrast that with Necrons, which (in stark contrast to DE) got to keep all of their new 5th edition HQs, and are now also getting a massive influx of new models.
Now, maybe, *maybe* Harlequins, DE etc. will be getting some attention down the line. However, it seems like it would have been a much better strategy to attend to those neglected factions first. They could still have given Necrons these new models down the line, but in the meantime they already have a far better range than Harlequins or DE.
Eldarsif wrote: At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.
I find it very hard to believe they'll be squatted. For one - they've been part of the game in both rules and lore for as long as it's existed. To squat them now (as opposed to actual Squats just kinda... "disappearing" in 2nd ed, when the nature of the game was still in very high flux)... it'd cause too big of an uproar, I reckon.
Then there's the fact that we DID get new Jain Zar and Banshees - as small an offering as that was, I shouldn't think they'd have bothered to update them at all if the intent was to let them die off as a faction. I took that release to be a statement of intent - however underwhelming it was - saying "look, we know you're out there, we haven't COMPLETELY forgotten about you, promise".
Lastly, the Aspect Warriors are a bone of contention but there's actually a fair amount of the range that's already in plastic. Farseers, Dire Guardians, all the vehicles and all the Wraith constructs. You can quite happily make an all-plastic Iyanden force that doesn't look horribly dated, so I think there's less work needed to bring Craftworlds up to date than this forum's perception.
My suspicion is that a revamp will also include a lot of new units, as well as updating the old.
Kanluwen wrote: Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
Death Guard is the oldest Codex right now so I am not that surprised they decided to redo it early on.
I agree that it would be great if more CSM offerings would find their way into the codex. I find it a bit sad that DG players have to resort to FW offerings just to get some decent firepower.
Kanluwen wrote: Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
DG don't have havocs though, Mortarion firmly believes that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry.
I get that we have a lot of snark going on Dakka, but yeah. I could see Death Guard Havocs making a reappearance either as from the CSM unit crossing over or a pseudo-Havoc unit with plague weaponry.
alextroy wrote: Because they can't release something for everyone all the time, unless you want to see a one kit a year faction drip.
First of all, are you kidding? One new kit a year would be FANTASTIC for a lot of races. I would take that in a heartbeat! A new harlequin unit? A new guard unit? Hell yes! This approach would do wonders in eliminating resentment against other armies. After all, everyone is getting theirs. Nobody is being favored. Stuff like sisters is a bit of a special case because GW has ignored them for decades to the point where they basically didn't have an existing model range at all.
But lets try to be more realistic about this. Lets add up all the new units they made in a year and divide it up amongst all the armies to see how many models each army gets per year.
Um... Does someone have a general idea of how many new models got released in any given year of 8th? I'm quite sure there have been enough primaris releases alone to give every army in the game a brand new unit. If all other new releases combined roughly equal the primaris releases I can see 2 new models per year per army, which is wonderful.
There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
Eldarsif wrote: At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.
I find it very hard to believe they'll be squatted. For one - they've been part of the game in both rules and lore for as long as it's existed. To squat them now (as opposed to actual Squats just kinda... "disappearing" in 2nd ed, when the nature of the game was still in very high flux)... it'd cause too big of an uproar, I reckon.
Then there's the fact that we DID get new Jain Zar and Banshees - as small an offering as that was, I shouldn't think they'd have bothered to update them at all if the intent was to let them die off as a faction. I took that release to be a statement of intent - however underwhelming it was - saying "look, we know you're out there, we haven't COMPLETELY forgotten about you, promise".
Lastly, the Aspect Warriors are a bone of contention but there's actually a fair amount of the range that's already in plastic. Farseers, Dire Guardians, all the vehicles and all the Wraith constructs. You can quite happily make an all-plastic Iyanden force that doesn't look horribly dated, so I think there's less work needed to bring Craftworlds up to date than this forum's perception.
My suspicion is that a revamp will also include a lot of new units, as well as updating the old.
Aeldari in general are in a weird spot right now.
- Drukhari is an awfully balanced Codex. Lorewise, one of the most important Wych Cults is helping Yvraine.
- Craftworlds needs half their stuff in plastic. Lorewise, it's only "modern" Phoenix Lord is helping Yvraine.
- Harlequins are 4 hqs and 4 other datasheets. Lorewise, they do whatever they want, so they fit wherever.
- Ynnari have no proper rules, they need to feed on other Aeldari factions. Lorewise, they are the actual meat and potatoes of the race, and A LOT of elves are becoming Ynnari.
I could see a massive overhaul of all the race, like Codex Aeldari + Supplements or something like that. Also Corsairs and Exodites could be a part of it.
Not Online!!! wrote: There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
Eldarsif wrote: At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.
I find it very hard to believe they'll be squatted. For one - they've been part of the game in both rules and lore for as long as it's existed. To squat them now (as opposed to actual Squats just kinda... "disappearing" in 2nd ed, when the nature of the game was still in very high flux)... it'd cause too big of an uproar, I reckon.
Then there's the fact that we DID get new Jain Zar and Banshees - as small an offering as that was, I shouldn't think they'd have bothered to update them at all if the intent was to let them die off as a faction. I took that release to be a statement of intent - however underwhelming it was - saying "look, we know you're out there, we haven't COMPLETELY forgotten about you, promise".
Lastly, the Aspect Warriors are a bone of contention but there's actually a fair amount of the range that's already in plastic. Farseers, Dire Guardians, all the vehicles and all the Wraith constructs. You can quite happily make an all-plastic Iyanden force that doesn't look horribly dated, so I think there's less work needed to bring Craftworlds up to date than this forum's perception.
My suspicion is that a revamp will also include a lot of new units, as well as updating the old.
Aeldari in general are in a weird spot right now.
- Drukhari is an awfully balanced Codex. Lorewise, one of the most important Wych Cults is helping Yvraine.
- Craftworlds needs half their stuff in plastic. Lorewise, it's only "modern" Phoenix Lord is helping Yvraine.
- Harlequins are 4 hqs and 4 other datasheets. Lorewise, they do whatever they want, so they fit wherever.
- Ynnari have no proper rules, they need to feed on other Aeldari factions. Lorewise, they are the actual meat and potatoes of the race, and A LOT of elves are becoming Ynnari.
I could see a massive overhaul of all the race, like Codex Aeldari + Supplements or something like that. Also Corsairs and Exodites could be a part of it.
I firmly believe Kirby wanted to squat Aeldari as we know it, but that was stopped by Roundtree after the disastrous WHFB/AoS debacle.
If you look back there was a clear intent that they wanted to make three Aeldari factions.
* Wraith Aeldari - Remember that time we had a lot of wraith kits and that part of the lore was expanded considerably? Even got a Iyanden supplement.
* Coven Aeldari - A lot of talk about them not wanting to join with the Ynnari and they got their own supplement and stuff. They even provided upgrade kits in the wrack kit to change your Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers.
* Ynnari Aeldari - Well, they got their heroes and Aspects, Kabals, and Cults seemed to be the forefront of them.
Due to that I imagine the Aeldari went into a design purgatory of their own that they are now trying to fix and there is delay in regards to that.
Not Online!!! wrote: There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Thanks for the honest answer. Here's hoping that gw shares that opinion and starts paying attention to someone else. Hopefully the update for Necrons is a sign of things to come.
I would say GW is paying attention to other factions.
Model/Unit releases that I cared to look up for 8th edition which are NOT Space Marines:
Orks: 12
Custodes: 5
Mechanicus: 12
Eldar: 4
GSC: 17
Tau: 1
Sororitas: 27
Chaos combined: 77 - (Maybe GW should tone down the Chaos related releases to make room for less supported factions )
Some are the same unit with different weapons, some are single troop leaders, some are from these "Heroes booster packs" or whatever.
Necrons overhaul is right around the corner with a bucketload of new miniatures.
New "lieutenant" style heroes for several factions have been teased officially.
I think people are more biased than they should be - given the numbers - against Marines because they seem to get something every other month
I just had to check this, whilst also going back a bit in time:
Miniatures released so far during 6th, 7th, 8th Ed (so since June 2012)
Space Marines: 170 +16 so far in 9th
Chaos Space Marines: 67
Chaos Demons: 42
Genestealer Cult:34
Orks:30
Necron:7 + 15 so far in 9th
Adeptus Mechanicus:21
Eldar:20
Tau:20
Tyranids:18
Astra Militarum:18
Chaos Knights/Imperial Knights:10
Adeptus Custodes:8
Harlequins:8
Drukhari:7
Grey Knights:1
Adepta Sororitas:?
I rest my case I mean Grey Knights getting one new model in 8 years and Space Marines getting 186...
Not Online!!! wrote: There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Thanks for the honest answer. Here's hoping that gw shares that opinion and starts paying attention to someone else. Hopefully the update for Necrons is a sign of things to come.
I would say GW is paying attention to other factions.
Model/Unit releases that I cared to look up for 8th edition which are NOT Space Marines:
Orks: 12
Custodes: 5
Mechanicus: 12
Eldar: 4
GSC: 17
Tau: 1
Sororitas: 27
Chaos combined: 77 - (Maybe GW should tone down the Chaos related releases to make room for less supported factions )
Some are the same unit with different weapons, some are single troop leaders, some are from these "Heroes booster packs" or whatever.
Necrons overhaul is right around the corner with a bucketload of new miniatures.
New "lieutenant" style heroes for several factions have been teased officially.
I think people are more biased than they should be - given the numbers - against Marines because they seem to get something every other month
I just had to check this, whilst also going back a bit in time:
Miniatures released so far during 6th, 7th, 8th Ed (so since June 2012)
Space Marines: 170 +16 so far in 9th
Chaos Space Marines: 67
Chaos Demons: 42
Genestealer Cult:34
Orks:30
Necron:7 + 15 so far in 9th
Adeptus Mechanicus:21
Eldar:20
Tau:20
Tyranids:18
Astra Militarum:18
Chaos Knights/Imperial Knights:10
Adeptus Custodes:8
Harlequins:8
Drukhari:7
Grey Knights:1
Adepta Sororitas:?
I rest my case I mean Grey Knights getting one new model in 8 years and Space Marines getting 186...
I imagine many will be shocked to see the eldar figures so high (as much as that is a loose term).
So just going off of those numbers above, I think there's what like.. 37 armies in the game? And sisters have like... 29 units I think? so 512 + 29 = 541. And then we divide that between 37 armies and get 14.6 new units per army every 8 years. Divide that by 8 and you get 1.825 new units per year. So roughly 2 new units per year per army? Sign me the feth up!
I imagine many will be shocked to see the eldar figures so high (as much as that is a loose term).
Real-talk but for me? Those kinds of lists are always suspect. 12 model/unit releases for Mechanicus? That's a...broad metric to have used.
There was the Skorpius, Archaeopter, Pteraxii, Serberys, and the Techpriest Manipulus. That's 5 model kits.
3 of those(Skorpius, Pteraxii, and Serberys) build 2 different unit entries each.
The Archaeopter builds 3 unit entries.
The Manipulus has weapon options but they are not different units.
And then the "21 Adeptus Mechanicus" items under that...well yeah. Their numbers are high because they were a brand new faction on the tabletop. Same goes for Knights, Custodes, and GSC.
You want to make your point?
Pick one or the other.
Not Online!!! wrote: There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Thanks for the honest answer. Here's hoping that gw shares that opinion and starts paying attention to someone else. Hopefully the update for Necrons is a sign of things to come.
I would say GW is paying attention to other factions.
Model/Unit releases that I cared to look up for 8th edition which are NOT Space Marines:
Orks: 12
Custodes: 5
Mechanicus: 12
Eldar: 4
GSC: 17
Tau: 1
Sororitas: 27
Chaos combined: 77 - (Maybe GW should tone down the Chaos related releases to make room for less supported factions )
Some are the same unit with different weapons, some are single troop leaders, some are from these "Heroes booster packs" or whatever.
Necrons overhaul is right around the corner with a bucketload of new miniatures.
New "lieutenant" style heroes for several factions have been teased officially.
I think people are more biased than they should be - given the numbers - against Marines because they seem to get something every other month
I just had to check this, whilst also going back a bit in time:
Miniatures released so far during 6th, 7th, 8th Ed (so since June 2012)
Space Marines: 170 +16 so far in 9th
Chaos Space Marines: 67
Chaos Demons: 42
Genestealer Cult:34
Orks:30
Necron:7 + 15 so far in 9th
Adeptus Mechanicus:21
Eldar:20
Tau:20
Tyranids:18
Astra Militarum:18
Chaos Knights/Imperial Knights:10
Adeptus Custodes:8
Harlequins:8
Drukhari:7
Grey Knights:1
Adepta Sororitas:?
I rest my case I mean Grey Knights getting one new model in 8 years and Space Marines getting 186...
I imagine many will be shocked to see the eldar figures so high (as much as that is a loose term).
At least one of those lists is individual models, not units. It makes a big (and deceptive) difference.
One is including each ork buggy as a distinct thing, the other is treating each pair of howling banshee legs as a distinct release.
After the dark angels supplement, what is there left to release?
Naughty Marines.
I thought that was this wave since they clearly did a gak in everyone's cereal by having the audacity to exist?
now that's funny
Kanluwen wrote:
Ordana wrote: When people complained about 9th about Marines the answer was that GW would surely release other codexes quickly. Now we know there is only Necrons for 2020.
Necrons, Death Guard, and C: Space Marines plus three supplements.
Those three supplements mean that three codices have been taken out of the release schedule. In case you missed how supplements dropped last year, it was 2 per week with some kits to stagger out rather than frontload the Marine releases...but it remains to be seen whether that part will remain in play for this go-around. There are more kits this time around that are tied to the main Codex rather than supplements(last time it was Phobos LT, Eliminators, Incursor/Infiltrator box, single-pack release of Librarian and Captain in Phobos, Invictor Warsuit, and the Impulsor) which seemed to be how they opted to pad things out as otherwise the supplements were a single character and an upgrade sprue(unless you were Ultramarines, naturally!).
Given the size of Necrons and Marines for releases though? I wouldn't be shocked if these two go into December. Death Guard looks to have just the hero and the terrain piece plus maybe finally a Start Collecting set using the Dark Imperium components.
And oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you if you think front loading all marines now means their will not be drip marine units released throughout 2021...
lol, it's funny because people said that about psychic awakening too...yet the faction that saw the most releases was Mechanicus.
Kanluwen wrote: Death Guard is an interesting choice, as I would personally have gone CSM...but I think that's next year or the year after and will be accompanied by the EC/WE being split out.
I'm personally hoping Death Guard at least see Havocs/Obliterators added to their roster. The new gent being a Daemon Engine buffer promises to be kind of interesting.
DG don't have havocs though, Mortarion firmly believes that infantry should not be carrying heavy weaponry.
I get that we have a lot of snark going on Dakka, but yeah. I could see Death Guard Havocs making a reappearance either as from the CSM unit crossing over or a pseudo-Havoc unit with plague weaponry.
That's not snark, that's actually fluff. This is the reason why Plague Marines always have had a second special weapons instead of a heavy weapon.
That's not snark, that's actually fluff. This is the reason why Plague Marines always have had a second special weapons instead of a heavy weapon.
Honestly, I only just remember this:
Can the current CSM Havocs just not take Specials? If not, I could see them either getting:
a) A literal "Death Guard Havoc" unit that is strictly special weapons that can't crossover to the main CSM box
OR
b) A unit of 'heavy weapons' that are things that would be set up as plaguespewers or the like.
That's not snark, that's actually fluff. This is the reason why Plague Marines always have had a second special weapons instead of a heavy weapon.
Honestly, I only just remember this:
Can the current CSM Havocs just not take Specials? If not, I could see them either getting:
a) A literal "Death Guard Havoc" unit that is strictly special weapons that can't crossover to the main CSM box
OR
b) A unit of 'heavy weapons' that are things that would be set up as plaguespewers or the like.
Not anymore iirc, havocs are actual heavy weapon dudes now.
People are too caught up on names, a death guard pesticide squad with plasma, melta and plague spewers on a 5 man unit etc. And job done.
Not Online!!! wrote: There was a list going arround some time back, it was marines codex version, having more then Chaos as a super faction combines, which then tapered out into various xenos with guard beeing the last one having only gotten some limited edition officers.
I just took a look at the list. Specifically Orkz.
Orkz got 12 releases in 8th according to the list, that includes the buggies (5 mono build models) and ridiculous wartrike, The terrain piece nobody took because it was less than useless, New Ghaz model and a Makari model. If you count each buggy as individual that is 9 releases. They also counted the LE Red Gobbo and for some reason had warbikes in their twice. To my knowledge literally the only thing that changed on warbikes is they got a bigger base...that is it. So at the very least you would need to subtract the 2 warbikes and in my opinion the Red Gobbo since he is legends only. Not much point in releasing a legends only model.
Granted the same might very well be true of every faction Just thought I would point that out.
As far as the main point though, yeah it does get a bit annoying with the Marine releases. releasing 5 flavors of Marines and then Necrons is a bit distasteful, especially after all the complaints GW got about the release schedule in 8th.
Dudeface wrote: People are too caught up on names, a death guard pesticide squad with plasma, melta and plague spewers on a 5 man unit etc. And job done.
That would just a plague marine squad with an extra weapon though and blightlords can already have up to 10 plasma/melta/flamer.
So a special weapon squad is not something I'd consider particularly interesting or needed. The main drive behind asking for havocs is the DG's lack of reliable long-range heavy weaponry, but we should get that on a vehicle, daemon engine or helbrute variant, not an infantry squad.
SemperMortis wrote: Granted the same might very well be true of every faction Just thought I would point that out.
Yeah. I don't know how the list was drawn up, but there seem obvious mistakes, so its hard to use it to argue anything.
I guess its indicative of how far I've gone from Eldar that I can't really get behind the Eldar Salt.
I mean its perhaps *bad* that there are Eldar kits who won't even get ID'ed to drink and drive - and I know a lot of people hate finecast - but tbh the range largely holds up.
I feel aspect warriors have been cried about before people got broadband - but its hard to sit here and think plastic Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawks are going to completely change how I view Eldar. In the former the helmets are a bit lame, and the latter is a bit "lacking in bling" by modern standards, but that's about it.
Its a similar cry with DE. "gib HQ options pls" - why? Special characters might be nice, but I really cannot see how the faction changes at all if you give say an Archon a skyboard or jetbike and voila, he's move 14-18 instead of 8". He still does the same old thing and has the same old problems. I feel DE really need more units, especially if they are going to live under this 3 factions in one army annoyance (or really 4 factions, but the 4th gets no special rules because clearly mad overpowered).
The thing about big rollouts is that they encourage you to buy a whole new army. I can't believe anyone thought "you know what, I'll build a whole new DE army" on the back of new Incubi and no-longer Preying Mantis man. And then the issue is that many of us with DE armies have, at some point over the years, bought some incubi to play with, because the finecast models (or even older) weren't so awful.
They'd be much better off - from me anyway - Harlequinising say Mandrakes. New units, HQ options, a whole 4th DE subfaction that plays in a somehow different way. Essentially a collection of models you could, in extremis, play by itself. Rather than say just "plastic mandrakes" - targeting the small subset of existing DE players who might buy Mandrakes but have not already bought older models and are therefore unlikely to replace them.
Which is why I think the new Necron roll out is sensible. It will likely encourage a lot of people to start a Necron army from scratch - and there's a huge range to get your teeth into for a couple of years.
I think the overwhelming thing with eldar is almost every other army range is a complete plastic range with a few holes (ignoring special characters). Tyanids need biovores/pyrovores, and a couple other things, orks can use a few characters and small special purpose squads, but basically the 'signature units' of these armies are all available in plastic. A book overhaul and a single weekend's releases could (though really shouldn't) handle most army lines.
That simply isn't the case with eldar. And it hasn't been the case for a long time. Actual decades, in fact. The last big DE update still feels unfinished, and they never got around to the craftworld update beyond wraith-constructs and jetbikes (but not shining spears)
Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.
Models aside, there's this huge narrative gap that GW introduced but failed to anything with, ancient enemies resurging and so on.
There's also the rules and points issues, the baseline eldar stuff got ground into the dirt with 9th. That needs to be straightened out, even if it means a new direction.
Voss wrote: I think the overwhelming thing with eldar is almost every other army range is a complete plastic range with a few holes (ignoring special characters). Tyanids need biovores/pyrovores, and a couple other things, orks can use a few characters and small special purpose squads, but basically the 'signature units' of these armies are all available in plastic. A book overhaul and a single weekend's releases could (though really shouldn't) handle most army lines.
That simply isn't the case with eldar. And it hasn't been the case for a long time. Actual decades, in fact. The last big DE update still feels unfinished, and they never got around to the craftworld update beyond wraith-constructs and jetbikes (but not shining spears)
Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.
Models aside, there's this huge narrative gap that GW introduced but failed to anything with, ancient enemies resurging and so on.
There's also the rules and points issues, the baseline eldar stuff got ground into the dirt with 9th. That needs to be straightened out, even if it means a new direction.
100% agreed.
And Eldar are WAAAY overdue for a range increase on Shuriken Catapults.
Its a similar cry with DE. "gib HQ options pls" - why? Special characters might be nice, but I really cannot see how the faction changes at all if you give say an Archon a skyboard or jetbike and voila, he's move 14-18 instead of 8". He still does the same old thing and has the same old problems. I feel DE really need more units, especially if they are going to live under this 3 factions in one army annoyance (or really 4 factions, but the 4th gets no special rules because clearly mad overpowered).
Okay, I have a few counterpoints to this:
1) "Your HQs suck so you don't deserve any more" seems rather poor reasoning, if you'll forgive my saying so.
2) Whilst additional HQs and/or options for Jetbikes, Skyboards etc. probably wouldn't drastically improve the overall power level of the army, they might at least make it less dreary to play. I can accept DE not being the most powerful faction. What I really want is for them to be fun. I want to enjoy playing them. I want to enjoy making all matter of characters for them, as opposed to being stuck with the same 3 sods with bugger-all flavour and bugger-all wargear.
3) However, with regard to rules, I feel obliged to mention that asking for new HQs and/or new wargear for existing HQs does not preclude one from also asking for better rules for HQs. I know because it's something I've been saying for bloody ages. Hence, the HQs don't have to remain useless garbage with crap wargear but could instead be turned into genuinely good units (along with any additional ones that are added in).
I mean, I won't object to DE getting new, non-HQ units. It's just that I consider them to be far down on the list of priorities compared to getting an expanded selection of HQs and their wargear.
Tyel wrote: I mean its perhaps *bad* that there are Eldar kits who won't even get ID'ed to drink and drive - and I know a lot of people hate finecast - but tbh the range largely holds up.
I feel aspect warriors have been cried about before people got broadband - but its hard to sit here and think plastic Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawks are going to completely change how I view Eldar. In the former the helmets are a bit lame, and the latter is a bit "lacking in bling" by modern standards, but that's about it.
Ehhhhh... I realise this is your opinion and I can't exactly say you're definitively wrong - but I will say there are a lot of people who disagree with you, and I'm one of them. Some of the oldest models hark from the days of "almost-2d" metal casting, where a lot of models have a flat pose because that meant being able to make them in one piece. Even the more recent ones have fixed poses that honestly don't vary that much from one model to the next - even though they're not exactly the same pose, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference at table level.
They also don't hold up too well with the overall scale creep over the years - I realise they're meant to be smaller, but they were already a bit too diminutive before Primaris showed up (which I realise is a problem entirely of GW's own making, not necessarily a flaw with the models' original design, but it's still an issue).
Contrast that to the new Banshees, who look dynamic and while still "small", have a lot more tabletop presence by way of their poses, much like the more recent plastic Harlequins do too. Now imagine that kind of design ethos given to what I will now unfairly claim is objectively the coolest Aspect of all time - Warp Spiders. Go on, just imagine it. 9th ed Warp Spider models, in all their plastic multiple-head-choice, 3-weapon-variants glory. ...THAT is the kind of thought that has me excited for what Eldar might have coming, and why I won't give up on the idea of a range update just yet.
I am very happy with the Necron release, but I am a bit perplexed by the idea that a lot of what appears to SM players think that Xenos is some sort of a mega-faction like Space Marines or even Imperium.
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Yeah, only the factions I don’t like should be lumped together is some sort of conglomerate mass.
Eldarsif wrote: Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.
AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.
Got way too burned by WHFB/AOS changeover to pick up AOS or any other “new” GW game. Others who could still use their old models to get into AOS and buffer the startup costs might feel differently.
Eldarsif wrote: At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.
I find it very hard to believe they'll be squatted. For one - they've been part of the game in both rules and lore for as long as it's existed. To squat them now (as opposed to actual Squats just kinda... "disappearing" in 2nd ed, when the nature of the game was still in very high flux)... it'd cause too big of an uproar, I reckon.
I agree, I don’t think CWE is getting squatted, I think they’re getting merged with Dark Eldar through Ynarri after a couple/few more experiments.
alextroy wrote: *Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
I am very happy with the Necron release, but I am a bit perplexed by the idea that a lot of what appears to SM players think that Xenos is some sort of a mega-faction like Space Marines or even Imperium.
I would love nothing more than if GW would allow all of the Xenos races to ally and fight against the encroachment of the Imperium, but as it is now there is very little to no overlap between Xenos factions. A necron release is not going to do me any good if I want to play Craftworlds or Tyranids.
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proably because you keep saying Xenos. and don't say "Eldar".
Consider this situation, if I made a post saying Imperium armies didn't get eneugh new models, and needed new models. you'd proably and justly point out that Imperium of Man gets plenty. but if I then replied with "well that doesn't count because Imperial Guard hasn't gotten something in ages" (their last kit IIRC was the Wyvren back in 2014) you'd justly wonder why I didn't just say "Imperial Guard"
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.
And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".
Jidmah wrote: At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.
And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".
You've run into the situation, then, where enjoyment of Eldar players runs up against enjoyment of Astartes players.
Eldar players want to feel like their Aspect Warriors are deadly and elite. Astartes players want them to be chaff they mow through. Guess who GW's gonna side with?
Jidmah wrote: At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.
And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".
In terms of needing a big redesign for how the army works irrespective of models, eldar need both, dark eldar need to work out how they're supposed to function as a whole, gsc need something to work around all the deepstrike detail options and daemons need a total rules rework in terms of detachments.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.
And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".
You've run into the situation, then, where enjoyment of Eldar players runs up against enjoyment of Astartes players.
Eldar players want to feel like their Aspect Warriors are deadly and elite. Astartes players want them to be chaff they mow through. Guess who GW's gonna side with?
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.
Dudeface wrote: I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.
I disagree, I think most marine players enjoy the power fantasy of treating other factions' "elite" units like chaff.
Jidmah wrote: At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.
And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".
I agree Aspect warriors need a little something to give them some oomph. And I do think there is some design space for them. IMHO aspect warriors should be fast, lethal, capable of rapid re deployment (they should have outflank strats, and webway assault strats etc that enables them to drop aspect warriors where they need to be) but at the same time they should be fragile. An aspect warriors vs Primaris Marines match should be two highly lethal forces going at it, where the eldar match superior positioning against Marines durability. I think a good start would be giving each aspect a inherant ability that is potent and can act as a force multipler.
Dudeface wrote: I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.
I disagree, I think most marine players enjoy the power fantasy of treating other factions' "elite" units like chaff.
far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.
BrianDavion wrote: far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.
I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).
Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.
BrianDavion wrote: far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.
I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).
Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.
... why? Space Marine players aren't obsessed with what other armies get. maybe it's because existing so long and often beside chaos marines, sisters of battle, guard and every other unit that consists of "squads of 5-10 men, with 1 sergant with a CCW and a gun, and 1-2 heavy or special weapons" yet all managed to be unique, we don't pee our pants at the thought that someone might have a unit similer to ours.
BrianDavion wrote: far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.
I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).
Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.
OK: as a heretic astartes play I want banshees to be efficient marine killers scorpions as horde clearers, hawks as a pita harasser, spiders to be able to clear small units off objectives and fire dragons to be able to melt monsters and tanks.
I don't want them to be a horde, I don't want them to be super fragile in all cases either.
In terms of design niches:
Scorpions = incursors I guess
Fire dragons = eradicators
Banshees = no real comparison, blade guard are closest
Warp spiders = ????
Swooping hawks = inceptors? Maybe?
Dark reapers = heavy intercessors at a push?
Dire avengers = intercessors
as an Astartes player, my favorite enemy is eldar.
Aspects are some of the most fun to play against, give an actual fight and the players seem to have a good time doing it(my eldar dont use them but if they got new sculpts, maybe I would).
I would really like it if aspects were the hyper-specialists they used to be.
so no, Marine players WANT to have opponents on an equal footing.
I would rather them be good than walking over them. the only chaff I want to see are blue & smell like fish!
BrianDavion wrote: far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.
I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).
Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.
OK: as a heretic astartes play I want banshees to be efficient marine killers scorpions as horde clearers, hawks as a pita harasser, spiders to be able to clear small units off objectives and fire dragons to be able to melt monsters and tanks.
I don't want them to be a horde, I don't want them to be super fragile in all cases either.
In terms of design niches:
Scorpions = incursors I guess
Fire dragons = eradicators
Banshees = no real comparison, blade guard are closest
Warp spiders = ????
Swooping hawks = inceptors? Maybe?
Dark reapers = heavy intercessors at a push?
Dire avengers = intercessors
So they're hardly all stolen.
Banshees are proably closest to Primaris Reivers I belive.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.
I don't want anyone to have the title. I want them to all compete for it, and nobody gets to hold it for long.
Taken literally, none of this sounds like fun:
Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again
Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.
Warp spiders are more like inceptors, swooping hawks feel closest to outriders, but marines don't really need hit and run units if whatever you hit doesn't get back up.
Hilariously, you could continue this exercise across most primaris units:
Invictor = War Walker
Impulsor = Wave Sperent
Repulsor = Falcon
Executioner = Fire Prism
Firestrike Turrets = Support Weapons
Eliminators = Rangers
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.
I don't want anyone to have the title. I want them to all compete for it, and nobody gets to hold it for long.
Taken literally, none of this sounds like fun:
Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again
Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.
I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.
The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.
Jidmah wrote: Warp spiders are more like inceptors, swooping hawks feel closest to outriders, but marines don't really need hit and run units if whatever you hit doesn't get back up.
Hilariously, you could continue this exercise across most primaris units:
Invictor = War Walker
Impulsor = Wave Sperent
Repulsor = Falcon
Executioner = Fire Prism
Firestrike Turrets = Support Weapons
Eliminators = Rangers
Primaris are literally eldar+1
I suspect you could do this with most units from most armies. They're all filling some sort of generic archetype. Sniper, Grunt, Tank, APC,
so no, Marine players WANT to have opponents on an equal footing.
Wishful thinking as discussed all over the board here.
Xenos players can hope that their new codices (if any) will be a reaction to the new SM codex and the supplements released this year.
Unfortunately I feel Eldar are kind of screwed unless they cross the rubicon and unfortunately the more units with 2 wounds the weaker and weaker damage 1 guns become.
You could for instance give Banshees the magic Bladeguard swords and at least 3 attacks. That's probably worth about 30 points. But if they remain T3 4+ save 1W, so... 8-9 points, they are just becoming more fragile and will die if they can ever be shot.
Eldarsif wrote: Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.
AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.
Also more varied releases. No single faction dominating releases and getting more and more rules poured on them. You have more opponents you tend to face(not me though. For some reason i seem to face 1 army every time. 1 player out of 16? Sure enough i face them in 3 game tournament. 3 teams out of 8? I face 2 out of 3 games )
I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.
You mean like Marines too?
The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.
Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.
Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again
Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.
I didn't lose a word about efficiency. It's obvious that such units should neither be OP nor trash and costed appropriately to their abilities.
From a fluff perspective, I expect that a single banshee should kill an intercessor with no problem, which means dealing an average of two damage to a T4/3+ stat line per banshee.
Six banshees clobbering a single marine to death is what orks would do, but does not feel appropriate for a super-agile super-specialized warrior that has been honing their skills for an insane amount of time.
ThePorcupine wrote: I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?
Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.
Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....
People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.
Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.
Don't mind me. Just usual salt.
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*
So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.
Yeah, that is a lot of salt.
Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.
Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?
Because you can be happy for both groups and excited about what comes next, without being a d-bag? In what way does Marines and Necrons getting new models and books at the same time cheapen either side?
Very polite of you but again it doesn't stop Eldar having a big release. But if they do/don't it doesn't impact your army.
Didn't realise GW have unlimited resources and overhaul multiple factions a year. The odds on Eldar getting a big revamp are very dramatically reduced due to the big necron release waves.
For now. Yes. How long did it take for AoS to get where it is today?
I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.
You mean like Marines too?
The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.
Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.
I'm not sure what you mean?
I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.
The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.
Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.
I hope Eldar get Primarisized. Not bigger mind you. Just new units that are more effective and expensive versions of what they have now. Making everything they currently use look bad. While only being half an army for the first two years, then getting more releases that finally make them competitive again. Then getting more and more redundant releases. The whole time gaking all over their fluff. Big stupid looking tracked tanks. All those imperial grav units had to come from somewhere. This whole time Farseer (insert name of older than Eldrad farseer who comes from left field here) has been breeding Eldar like clones and preparing the new wave of Eldar tanks, paid for by selling grav plates to the Imperium. On the long thought lost Craftworld of insert craptastic but easy to trademark name here.
In all seriousness. Eldar should not get 2w on all their infantry. Eldar are not tough. Eldar are fast and have high tech. Make them fast and deadly but squishy. Yes kinda like Harlies, but different.
You could for instance give Banshees the magic Bladeguard swords
You mean 2damage? Possibly. If you give everything 2d and 2w it sorta makes the point moot. That said, Banshees are one of the units I'd look at for the possibility if I was making those choices.
I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.
You mean like Marines too?
The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.
Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.
I'm not sure what you mean?
I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.
The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.
Give Howling Banshees swords that give +1 str -3 AP, and an extra attack. (so 3 for the basic unit, 4 for the exaurch) then you're looking at a 5 man squad that has 18 attacks, this would enable them to hurt marines, and allow them to blender 1 wound models.
I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy
I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.
You mean like Marines too?
The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.
Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.
Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.
I'm not sure what you mean?
I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.
The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.
Give Howling Banshees swords that give +1 str -3 AP, and an extra attack. (so 3 for the basic unit, 4 for the exaurch) then you're looking at a 5 man squad that has 18 attacks, this would enable them to hurt marines, and allow them to blender 1 wound models.
I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy
Even with that change, they'd be nowhere near as effective as you seem to think.
I'd rather with units like banshees see them get more attacks rather then hand D2 out like candy
Its definitely something that needs to be considered very carefully. Not handed out to every new troops unit. I think more attacks is probably the way to go with Banshees. Maybe two weapon choices. One that is Str +1 AP-2 D2 two handed, One that is their default sword AP-3 D1 +1ATT with this weapon if you fight, can take a second one. So paired blades could get them to 4att but at the cost of more points.
Space Marines Only Get 1.5 As Much As Every Other Faction Combined, Find Out Why This Is Fine!
bullyboy wrote: so lets get the marine boner out of the way so that when we are finally back to some form of normalcy, the only codexes in the pipeline will be non marine (except the chaos variety of course).
What makes you think this will happen when C:SM v8.5 did bring nothing of the sort, instead heralded EVEN MOAR marines?
Dudeface wrote: After the dark angels supplement, what is there left to release?
A new codex with the Light Intercessor, the Heavy Land Stormer, the EagleThunderer, the Assault Destructioneer, and the Captain in Gravis Armor On Bike With Jetpacks.
Totto wrote: I just had to check this, whilst also going back a bit in time:
Miniatures released so far during 6th, 7th, 8th Ed (so since June 2012)
Space Marines: 170 +16 so far in 9th
Chaos Space Marines: 67
Chaos Demons: 42
Genestealer Cult:34
Orks:30
Necron:7 + 15 so far in 9th
Adeptus Mechanicus:21
Eldar:20
Tau:20
Tyranids:18
Astra Militarum:18
Chaos Knights/Imperial Knights:10
Adeptus Custodes:8
Harlequins:8
Drukhari:7
Grey Knights:1
Adepta Sororitas:?
Jidmah wrote: At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.
The thing is, even if that happened, I'm not even sure what they could do for the faction. It seems that SMs have cannibalised so much design space - including many of the traits that were once unique to other factions - that there seems to be little room for expansion.
I mean, where do you even start? SMs have vehicles that exceed Raiders and Ravagers in speed, so you'd be looking at bumping those up to 18+" just to keep them even a tiny bit ahead. And pretty soon you're just going to run out of board to move to.
Similarly, how do you go about creating a glass-cannon army in the era of Primaris mega-weapons. DE already had problems with all their poison weapons and most of their melee weapons hitting like wet-noodles, and that was before the drastic Marine buffs and escalation from mid-8th onwards. If they're still supposed to be glass cannons, it seems like every Kabalite will soon have to be walking around with a handheld Disintegrator just to break even. Completely ridiculous, I know, but this seems to be the direction we're headed (especially if said Kabalites are to get no buff to their durability). Otherwise, you won't have an army of glass-cannons but simply an army of cannon-fodder.
And then there's the issue of durability. Unless their damage output is pushed to ridiculous levels, it seems that DE will need to get at least a bit tougher to compete with Marines. But then how do you go about it? +1W seems very un-fluffy. -1 to hit is possible, but then this causes problems due to the caps on such and also because it eats into the design space of Mandrakes and Venoms. Maybe a 5++ for all models to represent their reflexes? But now we're eating into the design space of both vehicles and Coven models.
And bear in mind that this is just for the models that already exist. I dread to think how you find niches for new units at this point.
Tyel wrote: D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
Then we're left with Striking Scorpions having their role usurped and the cycle repeats!
The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.
I'd go the other way. Start with 2W.
Jidmah wrote:I didn't lose a word about efficiency. It's obvious that such units should neither be OP nor trash and costed appropriately to their abilities.
You'd think so, but I'm taking less and less for granted lately - and that wasn't pointed at you, but others.
From a fluff perspective, I expect that a single banshee should kill an intercessor with no problem,
And vice versa. It just depends on what page you learn the Intercessor or the Banshee's name on. Everyone who's read Black Library can probably describe a book where one Banshee/DG/whatever laid waste to 9 Marines before getting killed by the 10th one because he's a recurring character.
which means dealing an average of two damage to a T4/3+ stat line per banshee.
Six banshees clobbering a single marine to death is what orks would do, but does not feel appropriate for a super-agile super-specialized warrior that has been honing their skills for an insane amount of time.
Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.
Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?
The basic Primaris Captain with the Bolt Rifle and power sword has 6A/5A after, 5/4.2 hits, 2.5/2.1 wounds 2.1/1.764 damage with a D1 Power Sword. Double that for a D2 Master Crafted.
Tyel wrote: D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.
Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.
Tyel wrote: D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
This was my view, plus scorpions are the chaff clearers historically.
Tyel wrote: D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.
Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.
The best way to kill T4 2W 3+Sv is S5+, Ap-2/3, D2/3, what is currently blending it's way through vehicals.
Made even worse by handing out T5 3W troops at apparently under 30ppm.
That makes you need a gack load of S6+ D3+ shooting with AP-2 or better to kill troops, Vehicals just took a massive hit in durability.
I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.
Tyel wrote: D2 is important though because its anti-Meq. I'm not sure you want 5 Banshees having a bazillion attacks such they can wipe out Ork hordes.
That's the problem with the arms race GW started with Marines.
If you bring all marines to 2 wounds you need elite killers to take down 2w models. And if you do it through adding more attacks you don't get an elite killer, you get a 'blender everything' unit.
Custodes could get 3w each because they are 50 point models, there will never be many of them. By making the entire space marine roster sub 20 point 2w models you end up having to pass out D2 weapons like candy. The alternative is that all armies without 2W basic models get obliterated in a hail of attacks.
The best way to kill T4 2W 3+Sv is S5+, Ap-2/3, D2/3, what is currently blending it's way through vehicals.
Made even worse by handing out T5 3W troops at apparently under 30ppm.
That makes you need a gack load of S6+ D3+ shooting with AP-2 or better to kill troops, Vehicals just took a massive hit in durability.
I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.
All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.
Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?
Brother Castor wrote: Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?
All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.
Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.
You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.
Breton wrote: And vice versa. It just depends on what page you learn the Intercessor or the Banshee's name on. Everyone who's read Black Library can probably describe a book where one Banshee/DG/whatever laid waste to 9 Marines before getting killed by the 10th one because he's a recurring character.
There is no BL book where dozens of banshees repeatedly successfully hit a squad of marines and they barely lose any members.
A single blow from a banshee that connects should kill a marine. Marines getting to shoot banshees or ambush them should murder them. That is how they work in the fluff, that's how they should play on the battlefield.
Breton wrote: Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.
According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.
Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?
One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.
Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.
You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.
You mean people weren't spamming those to begin with? But I can't stress enough marines are not the only army in the game. If you build solely to play against marines, other armies will hand you your ass.
And I don't need to address an obvious point. There is more damage on the field, mainly wound targets are of reduced value and single wound increased value.
so yeah we saw more Marine stuff, but the necrons stuff is all brand new never before seen things, so I'd say that balances out. IMHO both armies had some neat stuff previewed.
We've never seen Flayed Ones before? This is the third time they've done that kit. It's a useless unit entry and probably needs to be retired and, in this case, took up space it didn't need to take. Admittedly the finecast Flayed Ones are pretty ridiculous, but the entire unit is a bit silly. They don't fit the new Necron fluff at all imo.
....... did they cancell the necron codex release? people act like the only thing 9th edition has had thus far is power armor releases.
I get that you're tired of the Marine hate, but some of your posts are feeling pretty disingenuous. Marines have had a constant stream of releases since 8th launched. Constant. They've had the design space essentially gifted to them (show me a rule marines can't ignore and I'll show you a rule that hasn't actually been written yet), and have had models cranked out on what feels like an almost weekly schedule. You act like the players being upset that Marines are getting so much of the release schedule are somehow being unfair. You pointed out that xenos are in Indomitus - well, there HAD to be a bad guy in the box. lol Yeah, 'crons have gotten some stuff. Considering they've been essentially ignored since 5th while marines have had a steady stream of releases, it was about time. Looking at what they're getting though - yeah. So far it's not very good is it? I mean hopefully the codex fixes some of this, but the rules we've seen to this point are not great. Meanwhile, every single marine release has strong utility. Heavy Intercessors anyone?
"Good news Chaos players! Your CSM will get 2 wounds! Just in time marines to get TROOPS with D2 weapons!" I said this weeks ago but giving CSM 2 wounds would likely end up making them WORSE as it would make an already over-costed unit even more expensive, and since they don't have any way to leverage the additional wound (damage reduction, DR, Transhuman Physiology etc), it will be essentially meaningless. And what do you know? Right on the heels of that announcement, we get Gravis troops with D2 guns. But hey, at least Necrons got Flayed Ones. Again. Yay?
Back in the Spring, when we were talking about the codex release schedule I said the first or second book would be Marines. Literally everyone laughed at me. "There's no way GW would do that! It would cause such a gakstorm" of salt!". Well - here we are. Mind you I'm usually the one defending marine releases. They make money and GW is a business after all so having more marine releases on average is pretty understandable and never really bothered me, but even I am to the point where I've got the marine fatigue. I actually shelved my marines a year ago because it was getting silly back then. Your posts read like you can't possibly understand why people find this frustrating. I'm a marine player and I find it frustrating. "Has your faction just gotten a new cool rule? Stay tuned for next week when the new Primaris show up to nullify it!" It really is just silly at this point.
I've even said that they had to do this many releases to revamp the line, but if you think about, even that is wrong. When they revamp any other line, it's a month or two of releases and then on to the next. Marines have now had solid releases for an exceptionally long time. The fatigue is real.
Brother Castor wrote: Not sure if this has been asked already, but how is the current UM supplement going to be compatible with the new codex when Tyrannic War Veterans only have 1 wound? Will they release an updated datasheet?
FAQ I'd guess.
Probably. Let's just hope they do the same for csm, otherwise we'll be waiting for our new codex in order to play catchup again.
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.
Ice_can wrote:I really am starting to think GW doesn't see how broken they're wounding chart is.
The restriction on non-TITANIC models being able to Fall Back and cast psychic powers springs to mind as a possibility.
Hasn't been published yet, but since Ultras already ignore this rule for the purposes of shooting, my guess is they get a strat that allows it for their psykers as well.
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.
S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.
S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.
S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.
Seems fair.
s3 might be an issue if the ammount of attacks is too low but it would indeed be the best possible solution to that conundrum..
Jidmah wrote:One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Agreed, but how do you accomplish that? Give them AP-4 on the charge? Make that 3+ save irrelevant.
S3 AP-4 D2 seems like a good way to turn them into infantry killers without them also shredding tanks. Possibly have an exarch power that allows you to re-roll wounds.
You'd need it against T4. Maybe make their weapons +1 to strength as well?
I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.
Breton wrote: Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.
According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.
According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly. A primaris captain with a power sword doesn't kill a primaris marine a turn. One of the problems you're assigning to Shining Spears is a problem with close combat in and of itself. GW ripped the guts out of Close Combat in 8th. No +1A for Charging, no +1A for two CCW's (or pistol and CCW). They're figuring out they screwed up but they aren't fixing it yet. A few test balloons so far, but nothing game wide. They gave basic melee a +1A - choppas, talons, chainswords, etc. - but the pistol/power sword etc folks are still screwed. Not being able to chase and destroy falling back units hurts too. Unless it's a huge mob, most of the single turn combats are gone. The strong weapons don't have enough attacks, the ones that get extra attacks aren't strong enough until quantity has a quality all it's own.
Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?
One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Not until they fix close combat itself first. If a hundred point Captain doesn't necessarily do that, Banshees who do could be in the 70-80 point range. I don't know maybe they like it this way, maybe they don't want single turn fights. Maybe that's the new normal and they probably should have told us.
All good and well until you're now firing 30 point s6+ ap-2 d3 weapons at 5 point grots. There are things other than marines in the game and maybe marine killing tools should have their weakness there.
Except who needs to bother trying to shoot grots?
Also no one is paying 30 points for S6, ap-2 D3 shooting atleast not without volume and frabkly if I've killed all the buggies and Bombers I'll quiet happly shoot the grots with lascannons if they are the only thing left alive.
You also managed to massively not address how that new marine stats made vehicals straight up worse in 9th edition now, especially combined with the fact that to counter marinesS5+ D2+weapons are having to be handed out like candy.
You mean people weren't spamming those to begin with? But I can't stress enough marines are not the only army in the game. If you build solely to play against marines, other armies will hand you your ass.
And I don't need to address an obvious point. There is more damage on the field, mainly wound targets are of reduced value and single wound increased value.
Realy what other armies are handing you your ass?
So far in 9th it play marines or GTF.
I've seen plenty of Non loyalist marine player either give up or start marines.
So which army is going to hand you your arse as you keep claiming if you build to counter marine's.
Heck build to counter marines and deal with the downsides vrs other opponents is exactly what some of the biggest names in competitive 40k are advising non marine players do to have a chance of not getting ROFL stomped.
10 Banshee with +1A for charging and +1A for two weapons kill not quite 4 Intercessors 7.8 damage. The six intercessors attacking back without Shock Assault do 2.2 damage back.
Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:
I think the problem is just that you assume that a captain should be more deadly in combat than a banshee. The opposite should be the case, which is very much the whole problem of banshees.
Jidmah wrote: I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.
Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.
Jidmah wrote: I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.
Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.
Breton wrote: Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.
According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.
According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly. A primaris captain with a power sword doesn't kill a primaris marine a turn. One of the problems you're assigning to Shining Spears is a problem with close combat in and of itself. GW ripped the guts out of Close Combat in 8th. No +1A for Charging, no +1A for two CCW's (or pistol and CCW). They're figuring out they screwed up but they aren't fixing it yet. A few test balloons so far, but nothing game wide. They gave basic melee a +1A - choppas, talons, chainswords, etc. - but the pistol/power sword etc folks are still screwed. Not being able to chase and destroy falling back units hurts too. Unless it's a huge mob, most of the single turn combats are gone. The strong weapons don't have enough attacks, the ones that get extra attacks aren't strong enough until quantity has a quality all it's own.
Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?
One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.
Not until they fix close combat itself first. If a hundred point Captain doesn't necessarily do that, Banshees who do could be in the 70-80 point range. I don't know maybe they like it this way, maybe they don't want single turn fights. Maybe that's the new normal and they probably should have told us.
I'm pretty confused about what math you're talking about currently. Are we talking current howling banshees into new tactical marines? Current howling banshees into current intercessors?
Current banshees vs new tacs: Well do 8 of the new tacs and give the sergeant a new power sword to make the stats as equal as possible, and have 10 banshees, no strat upgrade on the exarch. Assume the banshees get the charge, but have to advance to do so meaning no pistols. That's as realistic a game scenario as I can come up with.
Banshees on the charge: 3.87W, 2 dead tacs.
Tacs response, 2.66 dead banshees.
Following turn, assuming the tacs don't fall back and just have something else shoot the banshees, tacs kill 2.48 banshees between pistols and melee attacks. Then the remaining 5 banshees deal 1.93W, round up to 1 more dead tac.
Next turn, pistols allow the banshees to put an extra wound on the tacs, so they kill 1.5. tacs kill 2 banshees.
Turn after that, only banshee exarch is left. Exarch finishes off the wounded tac.
Turn after that, exarch deals 1 more wound, tacs kill exarch.
Equal points of new marine tacticals vs howling banshees is a long fight, which ends with all banshees dead and 3 tacs alive, one wounded.
Jidmah wrote: Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:
10/2 =5?
I think the problem is just that you assume that a captain should be more deadly in combat than a banshee. The opposite should be the case, which is very much the whole problem of banshees.
Why yes, I kind of believe one of the 10 or so best Space Marine combatants in a chapter should be able to take an elite infantry?
Jidmah wrote: Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:
10/2 =5?
If 10 banshees deal 3.9 damage, you need 6 to kill a model with two wounds.
Why yes, I kind of believe one of the 10 or so best Space Marine combatants in a chapter should be able to take an elite infantry?
"Muhreens should be the bestest at everything" is not a valid argument. Especially not when the talent in question killing other marines.
In addition, if you have paid attention, it would still take quite a few banshees to kill that captain with the rules I suggested.
Jidmah wrote: I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.
Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.
Preferred Enemy: Infantry.
There you go.
carefull now, USR's are heresy as are Firing arcs and Armor values.
I'm pretty confused about what math you're talking about currently. Are we talking current howling banshees into new tactical marines? Current howling banshees into current intercessors?
10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere.
Equal points of new marine tacticals vs howling banshees is a long fight
They're almost all long fights now. I also later did Old combat rules with the same 10 Banshee +1A and Pistol/CCW +1A (Charge) vs 10 Intercessors (without Shock Assault). That may have been what confused you? Not sure.
The problem isn't limited to Banshees, nor should the fix be there. The 8th Ed changes to Fight were pretty bad. They knew it before 9th(Shock Assault, Hateful Assault) , not fixing it in 9th suggests they wanted to tone down Fight. I hope not this much. Especially if they're going to make a decent fight phase worth 25-33% of primary VPs. Original 8th Ed Assault Marines lost to Intercessors. The loss of Broken -> Run Down -> Destroyed just made things worse.
10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.
Are we considering some kind of theoretical universe where banshees get both the +1S power sword and +1A or something?
Because I don't think even the former is a guarantee. They've already said xenos weaponry is waiting until the codex to get changed, dont' get me wrong I HOPE they go in and give at the very least the weapons that are 100% identical in all but name (Fusion, Power Swords, Power Klaws, etc) the same rules, but I do not think it is in any way a given.
I think the default, assumed state should be that banshees will exist in current form at current point cost until at earliest january 2021.
Jidmah wrote: There have been multiple good arguments in this thread about why more attacks wouldn't help banshees.
Also not the argument I made. The only specific suggestion I've made for banshees so far was to up them to 2W in repsponse (with a non-specific offset to slightly lower their large charge range) to someone else's idea of buffing them to the 20PPM range.
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the_scotsman wrote: 10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.
Tyel wrote: Its a similar cry with DE. "gib HQ options pls" - why? Special characters might be nice, but I really cannot see how the faction changes at all if you give say an Archon a skyboard or jetbike and voila, he's move 14-18 instead of 8". He still does the same old thing and has the same old problems.
Just to address this point. If nothing else it lends variety, it would be super easy to convert the current Drukhari HQs to have wings, a jetbike, or a skyboard.
More substantially, Drukhari are a mostly transport-based army, but suffer from the annoying problem of trying fit HQs into transports that carry multiples of 5, and when you manage it you get no benefit from the HQ's aura. The alternative is to footslog the HQ while the rest of the army zips about....which is thematically a bit gak.
Jidmah wrote: There have been multiple good arguments in this thread about why more attacks wouldn't help banshees.
Also not the argument I made. The only specific suggestion I've made for banshees so far was to up them to 2W in repsponse (with a non-specific offset to slightly lower their large charge range) to someone else's idea of buffing them to the 20PPM range.
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the_scotsman wrote: 10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.
In turn 1. I’ll bet they can get to 4 before too long?
Or are you referring to the comparison to previous Edition +1A +1A charge, pistol CCW? 41 attacks, 28 or so hits, 9 or so wounds, 8 or so damage? I’m not sure what you’re objecting to? I said 10 banshee kill 2 Intercessors... the old combat rules it jumps to 4?
Edit to add: there may have been a post where I pointed out equal points banshee vs Intercessors would do 4? I’m really not sure?
"According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly."
That's what I'm referring to. Primarily, the "Then Start Losing Badly" part.
8 intercessors, assuming Chainsword sgt, assuming -1 to hit in melee ability on banshees.
4.33 wounds. Next round, presumably it's the intercessors' players turn, they kill 1.77 with pistols and we'll round up to 2 because of the .33 leftover from last round.
4 remaining banshees fight first if their player selects them first, deal 1.66 damage, we'll be generous and round up to 1 more dead intercessor. Intercessors then punch without Shock Assault and 2.66 more. We'll be generous to the intercessors as well, 3 more dead banshees.
Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.
Banshee should be something like:
2 attacks on profile, +1 for weapon, +3 on the first round of combat from special rule.
S3, AP-4, D2.
Rule to make opponent strike last in first turn of combat.
But just 1W T3 4+.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Banshee should be something like:
2 attacks on profile, +1 for weapon, +3 on the first round of combat from special rule.
S3, AP-4, D2.
Rule to make opponent strike last in first turn of combat.
But just 1W T3 4+.
+3 attacks in the first round make them absolutely chew through fodder instead of being elite killers.
What does that do to the space for striking scorpions?
Ordana wrote: +3 attacks in the first round make them absolutely chew through fodder instead of being elite killers.
What does that do to the space for striking scorpions?
Maybe they get same number of attacks, S4 AP-1 D1, but they get to attack twice?
[edit]Maybe with the new marines it's better to make the banshee get only +2 attacks but being D3[/edit]
Dysartes wrote: Well, WHC just confirmed that Banshees will get the new power sword profile - +1S, -3AP, D1 - at the same time the SM 'dex drops.
Pretty sure we knew that already. The initial announcement said all same-name stuff would change. The downside is things like fusion guns don't get an free update.
Holy carp on the hand flamer though. That stands out, especially when compared to the poor inferno pistol (though at point blank range, that just obliterates people).
GSC Acolytes are just...hilariously better than neophytes now.
So you're telling me that I can pay 6pts and I can get a model that has 1A, WS4+, S3 AP- in melee, and in shooting, gets an average of 1 hit S3 AP-.....
.....or for 10pts I could get a model that has 3A, WS3+, S4 with AP on 2 of those attacks in melee, and in shooting, gets 3.5 S3 Autohits?
And they're both the same slot, huh? Competing for the exact same role? 3x the damage in shooting, 4x the damage in melee, for a 40% price increase?
What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.
And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!
Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff
Denegaar wrote: What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.
And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!
Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff
Given that not a single xenos unit they listed had a "slightly differently named" thing, I'm guessing even direct identical analogues like Power Klaws, Killsaws, Fusion Guns etc will not be receiving the buffs until their codexes.
I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. but I'm betting it's only identically named stuff.
Denegaar wrote: Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.
The Klaive thing bugs me though...
Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.
The issue is how long it takes. When I asked how to handle dark eldar in 9th some people basically showed you pretty much have to rely on the dark technomancers army trait for damage, covens are needed to hurt things in melee, wych cult is mostly trash, disintegrators are basically needed and in general you're probably better off scoring objectives in 9th rather than going for killing the enemy army.
Just to show you all how bad things have gotten heavy intercessors basically have our disintegrator profile with greater range and their new hover vehicle is as fast as a venom when both aren't boosted. For reference venoms are a light transport and dark eldars fastest vehicle and currently nobody really takes it because it sucks now. It's absolutely absurd space marines are that fast and take one of our best weapons with better range and they take it on a t5 with 3 wounds model and 10 man unit.
GW your army faction favoritism is so blatant it's obscene. Not to mention the next 4 codexes are all marines (3 loyalist, 1 chaos). Wtf give dark eldar and eldar something. We were the first psychic awakening book for God's sake. Just give us something....and no a new model for lelith with zero new wargear and completely unchanged points doesn't count.
Denegaar wrote: Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.
The Klaive thing bugs me though...
Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.
The issue is how long it takes. When I asked how to handle dark eldar in 9th some people basically showed you pretty much have to rely on the dark technomancers army trait for damage, covens are needed to hurt things in melee, wych cult is mostly trash, disintegrators are basically needed and in general you're probably better off scoring objectives in 9th rather than going for killing the enemy army.
Just to show you all how bad things have gotten heavy intercessors basically have our disintegrator profile with greater range and their new hover vehicle is as fast as a venom when both aren't boosted. For reference venoms are a light transport and dark eldars fastest vehicle and currently nobody really takes it because it sucks now. It's absolutely absurd space marines are that fast and take one of our best weapons with better range and they take it on a t5 with 3 wounds model and 10 man unit.
GW your army faction favoritism is so blatant it's obscene. Not to mention the next 4 codexes are all marines (3 loyalist, 1 chaos). Wtf give dark eldar and eldar something. We were the first psychic awakening book for God's sake. Just give us something....and no a new model for lelith with zero new wargear and completely unchanged points doesn't count.
"Just give us something, the psychic awakening book doesn't count, the new models alongside it don't count and new models of existing characters don't count"
Ordana wrote: They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...
Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.
Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.
3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.
I'm not in a hurry as long as our Codex is properly and internally balanced. I'm having fun even with our current and broken one...
But yeah they could give us a hit of what is coming, I'm pretty sure they already know where are they going with big factions like Aeldari. A day without Primaris news wouldn't kill... SM players have enough to think for some months.
Ordana wrote: They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...
Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.
Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.
3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.
GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.
Ordana wrote: They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...
Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.
Yeah such a win D6 auto hitting S4 Ap0 1D attacks vrs what is 90% odf the time going to be T4 2W 3+Sv models.
3.5 hits 1.75 wounds =.58 of a wound per flamer.
For just 15 points more than 3 eradicators you can do avarage of 5.25 wounds to a marine statline 47.25 points of old school or 52.5 points of intercessors. Aslong as you can see them, Ofcourse wouldn't want them to be too OP.
GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.
They might have more of a point if it felt like anyone who doesn't play marines actually had a chance in 9th edition.
Dysartes wrote: Well, WHC just confirmed that Banshees will get the new power sword profile - +1S, -3AP, D1 - at the same time the SM 'dex drops.
Pretty sure we knew that already. The initial announcement said all same-name stuff would change. The downside is things like fusion guns don't get an free update.
Holy carp on the hand flamer though. That stands out, especially when compared to the poor inferno pistol (though at point blank range, that just obliterates people).
They originally said Imperial units would get the boosts if same name - now confirmed all with same name which is at least something
Denegaar wrote: What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.
And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!
Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff
Given that not a single xenos unit they listed had a "slightly differently named" thing, I'm guessing even direct identical analogues like Power Klaws, Killsaws, Fusion Guns etc will not be receiving the buffs until their codexes.
I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. but I'm betting it's only identically named stuff.
it will be, one of the major reasons to have identically stat-ed but different named weapons in different lists is so you can indevidually adjust the relative power of each in the name of "balance" ie, you can boost one faction's "Holy Power Swords" to increase their effectiveness, while leaving another's "Infernal Power Swords "alone, or visa versa.
incidentally, this is likely part of the logic of the 30+ "bolt" weapons, as now GW can play with the power and cost of each gun on each unit, so that they can, for example, make one troop choice better or cheaper without disrupting the balance of another type of troop.
GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.
Classic BrianDavion.
Everyone - Marines are fine. Quit picking on them.
not what I said princess, try to work on that reading comprenhension. My point is that this is a game with 20 armies, some of which aren't Marines. and not every weapon is going to an AP -3 S4 D2 marine killers, doesn't mean they don't have a place.
GW unlike dakkadakka doesn't seem to think that every weapon should be tailored to kill marines.
Classic BrianDavion.
Everyone - Marines are fine. Quit picking on them.
not what I said princess, try to work on that reading comprenhension. My point is that this is a game with 20 armies, some of which aren't Marines. and not every weapon is going to an AP -3 S4 D2 marine killers, doesn't mean they don't have a place.
Is this a game with 20+ armies though? Is it really?
Like all 20 are somehow comparable ? Yeah...
When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.
Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.
I was skipping the shooting as I was talking about close combat. Because my point was that Banshees didn't specifically take a hit, fighting in general did. And needing 2+ player turns when someone is saying 110 points of banshees should plow through 200 points of intercessors in one player turn is a while. Even 110 points of Banshees doesn't go through 100 points of Intercessors in one player turn. The days of charge, assault, wipe out, consolidate into a new unit are, at least for now with most units, gone.
8 VV with BPPS vs 10 Intercessors 25 attacks, 16.8 hits 8.37 wounds 7.2 damage.
40 Hormagaunts 80 attacks 43..3 hits (40 hits plus half of 16% of 40 misses) 14 wounds, 4.7 damage
Raptors are in the same boat as Assault Marines, I'm not going to bother.
A knight's feet will get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 xD3 damage.
Interceptors will do slightly worse at S4 -3 vs S8 -2 but similar to knights.
6 Terminators with Lightnig Claws 25 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds + 4 Wounds is 12 wounds, 8 damage (have Shock Assault and two weapon bonus built in the claws to still have the same attacks as Pre-8th plus reroll wounds)
10 Assault Intercessors (Maybe its just the old stuff) 41 attacks 27 hits, 13 wounds, 6.5 damage (Shock Assault and the new Chainsword with -1AS and +1A)
I think there's still a Demon unit that will ginsu every turn, but I don't know their armies well enough Bloodcrushers maybe? - and I'm getting tired of doing the math. Plus it doesn't matter, if they ginsu they're the exception proving the rule, if they don't they're just more evidence that the Fight phase took a serious across the board hit.
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Jidmah wrote: When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.
I look at that list and see a lot of armies that should have been subfactions.
Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.
I was skipping the shooting as I was talking about close combat. Because my point was that Banshees didn't specifically take a hit, fighting in general did. And needing 2+ player turns when someone is saying 110 points of banshees should plow through 200 points of intercessors in one player turn is a while. Even 110 points of Banshees doesn't go through 100 points of Intercessors in one player turn. The days of charge, assault, wipe out, consolidate into a new unit are, at least for now with most units, gone.
Your example relied on the marine player not shooting pistols in close combat, a thing that is free to do and which is one of the major reasons the intercessors won handily
Banshees are a suicide melee unit that returns 40% of its points value on the charge vs its preferred target. AKA, a very bad suicide unit. Just because you can come up with other gakky builds like power sword/bolt pistol vanvets does not make Banshees not gak in comparison to other close combat units, like say, their direct competition in the Eldar book, shining spears.
...yes, even with the +1S power swords.160 points of banshees equipped with the best wargear for fighting marines (the D3 damage Executioner weapon) kill 60 points of intercessors or 54 points of tacticals on the charge. Then, the marines fall back, and the banshees become T3 4+ bodies that cost 15 points, incredibly efficient to shoot with basically anything.
4 shining spears plus a star lance have a much, MUCH better time. They have the same threat range as the banshees without advancing, meaning they get to shoot on their way in causing 2.5 dead intercessors, then they kill 4 intercessors in combat.They kill nearly equal points of intercessors on the charge with average rolls, without having to not bring the defensive trait on their exarch. Then, when the surviving squad member falls back (or just, is dead, if you got lucky with rolls) the return fire has to get through 9 T4 3+sv 4++ wounds, with 3 wounds that have a 3++ save just in case you aim a plasma gun at them.
That's the range you want a suicide unit to be operating in: if you get them into their preferred target (which W2 marines most CERTAINLY are for spears) you'd like them to reliably kill about 80% of their points value, because your opponent is most likely going to be able to remove them with somewhat less than their value in points. Suicide squads are game tempo pieces, where the majority of their usefulness comes from dictating their opponent's next movement phase and taking out particularly problematic squads that threaten your army. You use your Fire Dragons to kill the tank that can hurt your vehicles if you have an armored list. You use your Eradicators to take out the flat D2 weapon vehicle. You fling your Genestealers into the aggressors that can carve up a bunch of your nid troops.
Banshees just dont function like that. They either need some mechanic to stay alive vs shooting, or they need more damage to function as a suicide troop.
SemperMortis wrote: How many of those 20+ armies are different flavors of power armor?
Now it was specified as "marines" aka 1/2w t4 3+, so following that:
Now we have:
Chaos marines
Thousand sons
Space marines
Grey knights
Almost marines:
Sisters
Death guard
Anything else is a supplement.
Not marines:
Tau
Eldar
Dark eldar
Guard
Admech
Gsc Nids
Orks
Crons
Knights
Chaos knights
Daemons
Harlequins
Custodes
Dont think I've missed any?
Jidmah wrote:When you look at a list like that it's even more insane when you think about how little attention most of those armies get compared to the whole of all releases.
Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new
So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).
And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.
So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".
The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.
Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:
-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks
^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?
or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:
Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot
Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.
Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new
So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).
And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.
So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".
As opposed to Marines and their many flavors who are: Brand new and so fully complete that GW had to change the fluff in order to push out an entire new range of SM+1s. Also, its a bit...ridiculous that we are talking about release of new kits and your response was to say "Orkz who have a ton of nice kits", "Nids who have a ton of really good kits", and "Eldar who are old as dirt but have seen some light".
I'm still kit-bashing my own Tankbustas/Kommandos because the kit is old and garbage. God help you if you want new Deff Koptas or old ones and can't find any Black Reach ones on EBay.
I'm stoked for Necron players, i hope this brings them out more since I literally haven't played against one in years, but people are getting fed up with the constant SM releases when other factions are ignored even though their lines clearly need a lot more attention.
the_scotsman wrote: The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.
Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:
-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks
^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?
or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:
Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot
Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.
Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.
the_scotsman wrote: The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.
Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:
-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks
^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?
or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:
Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot
Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.
Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.
From what I can tell on SOL, they're reasonably early 3rd edition sculpts - they don't show in the 1999 Annual (though DE do), but are present in the 2000 one.
the_scotsman wrote: The other day I counted I think 68 kits specifically for Codex: Space Marines (not counting other power armor) since the last time nids got a kit.
Armies that have 3rd ed or older troop sculpts still:
-Guard
-Eldar
-Nids
-Orks
^That's where to start, right there. And while you're at it, I'd say a worthy cause would be purging the game of 2nd ed fugly characters in finecrap. how 'bout a Striking Scorpion+Pheonix Lord vs Lictors+Red Terror box set?
or even better, make it a boxed board game, 4 players:
Player 1 - Striking Scorps+Karandras
Player 2 - Catachan Jungle Fighters+Colonel Straken
Player 3 - Lictors+Red Terror
Player 4 - Kommandos+Boss Snikrot
Warhammer 40,000 Alien Vs Predator tactical board game with tons of concealed movement, bluff mechanics, etc. Package it with the Deathworld Terrain set to pump up the price, that gak CANNOT have sold well.
Chaos marines are still packing zerkers as 2nd ed troops for WE.
That's true. people do seem to forget that gems like possessed and bezerkers still exist because CSM got a pretty solid refresh a bit ago.
Still 2nd ed/ 3rd ed trash:
-CSM Vehicles
-Defiler
-Possessed
-Bezerkers
-Many named characters
-Noise Marines
-Daemon prince (might be newer tbh I don't know about this one, but terrible looking mini)
The problem with all the armies that desperately need attention is not that there don't exist good looking kits, but that there are kits that are iconic to the faction that still look like utter trash, while again, marines were basically the most complete model range ever before the primaris pushing started.
If the primaris range was:
-Intercessors (Scaled up tacticals, with real special/heavy weapons)
-Eliminators (replacement for sniper scouts)
-Reivers (Replacement for other scouts)
-The new Landspeeder
-Outriders
-Spacemario Kart
People would not have cared. Attack bikes, scouts, bikers, land speeders? Yeah, those were the elements of the marine range that actually needed updates, that were 3rd ed or older. It's the fact that we have the 30-odd other kits that GW put out with primaris, while such iconic units as Genestealers, Possessed marines, Ork Boyz, Termagants/Hormagants, Aspect Warriors and Guardians, and Guardsmen have all sat with their thumbs up their butts because the 40k release pipeline has been clogged with light intercessors, heavy intercessors, medium intercessors, a kit for melta gun dudes, a kit for plasma gun dudes, a kit for chainsword dudes. It feels like GW decided to take the tactical squad kit and replace it with a unique SKU for every single possible fething build you could make a guy out of it.
Knights - functionally complete
Chaos Knights - brand new
Sister - brand new
Death Guard - brand new
GSC - brand new
Custodes - brand new
Daemons - got all their GDs along side a partial refresh
Crons - brand new
Admech - brand new
So that leaves DE who has newer kits. T'au who has newer kits. Orks who have a ton of nice kits - what else are you going to update aside from infantry? IG whose vehicles are fine. Harlies who have new kits, but are a limited army and will likely stay a limited army. Nids who have a ton of really good kits. Grey Knights are overshadowed, but fine (but don't count, because power armor). Thousand Sons who are fairly new, but need some variety (but dont count, because power armor).
And then Eldar who are old as dirt, but have seen some light and aged far better than CSM did.
So what people are really trying to say is, "I'm jealous and *I* should be the one getting new toys and not other people. If the releases are Sisters or IG or Admech I'll label them as Imperium and attack all the Imperium releases, because *I* am still not getting toys that I want right now".
As opposed to Marines and their many flavors who are: Brand new and so fully complete that GW had to change the fluff in order to push out an entire new range of SM+1s. Also, its a bit...ridiculous that we are talking about release of new kits and your response was to say "Orkz who have a ton of nice kits", "Nids who have a ton of really good kits", and "Eldar who are old as dirt but have seen some light".
I'm still kit-bashing my own Tankbustas/Kommandos because the kit is old and garbage. God help you if you want new Deff Koptas or old ones and can't find any Black Reach ones on EBay.
I'm stoked for Necron players, i hope this brings them out more since I literally haven't played against one in years, but people are getting fed up with the constant SM releases when other factions are ignored even though their lines clearly need a lot more attention.
I don't think there's nothing worthy for GW to make, but a lot of those armies don't need a refresh.
People just need to realize that one marine kit probably hits half the player base even before they were good. An Ork refresh probably hits 1 in 15. Which means 14 in 15 are still upset. Some new DE is helpful to a lot of pointy eared soup, but not everyone does soup.
There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
The marine bloat is so silly that GW puts something out for Primaris, and then puts out ANOTHER thing that does the exact same job 100% better, making there be basically no point in the existence of the first thing.
Remember Reivers? Anyone going to buy those now that we have AP-1 Obsec Assault Intercessors and Infiltrators with better bolt carbines an anti-DS aura and good Infiltrate rules?
Remember the Repulsor? you know, how you could build that variant with all the las-talons? Well, he's the new tank, which doesn't pay for transport capacity, and has the shiny new multi-meltas so it does more damage for less points!
Remember the Redemptor Dreadnought? S5 guns plus dreadnought fist? Well here's the Invictor, same preferred target, same melee power, same defenses, oh by the way you get to deploy it midboard while the redemptor starts in your DZ :^)
GW didn't even bother making Suppressors a kit. It's more just a formality at this point. Marine players aren't supposed to buy the plastic kits, just buy 250$ box set and flog the not-marine half on ebay. Then buy next 250$ box set and throw out previous 250$ box set!
Don't think, just consume product and get excited for new product!
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
Rigghhht, codexes. So who's getting four of the six new codexes/supplements we'll be getting this year? Could it be the faction with the second newest codex in the game? The one that's been dominating the meta for the last year? Naahhhh, couldn't be them.
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.
I'm sure you don't meant it that way, but your post reads as if your are saying that marines deserve to get vastly more models than any other faction in the game because those factions have gotten models at any time in the past?
I'd also like to point out that your "brand new list" effectively says that it's ok for new armies to not receive any release whatsoever, rules or models, for 3 full years.
How about not updating loyalist Space Marines at all for another three years? I'm sure that most players won't run out of things to buy in the meantime.
I don't think there's nothing worthy for GW to make, but a lot of those armies don't need a refresh.
People just need to realize that one marine kit probably hits half the player base even before they were good. An Ork refresh probably hits 1 in 15. Which means 14 in 15 are still upset. Some new DE is helpful to a lot of pointy eared soup, but not everyone does soup.
There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
While it doesn't help that the marines are plentiful AND really good, I think you'd still see complaining even if the marine releases were pants. The only difference is that, instead of "everyone else" complaining, it would be "marine players AND everyone else". One side complaining about the near constant torrent and the other side complaining that all the releases are bad.
And I would disagree on the "a lot of armies don't need a refresh" thing. SOME don't but quite a few do. My DG have been in a good place for a while in terms of releases but needed some rules updates. So yeah, you could pretty much fix them with a proper codex. Not sure we need new models. But as a Tsons player yourself, even you have to admit that range is pretty thin. Then we have DE. They have only LOST units since 5th. How about Guard? The tanks are probably mostly fine but the infantry? Those models aren't aging well. Similar to CWE - that line really needs looked at. Eldar players are well past due for plastic aspects, and the Guardian kit could probably use some love. The very least they could do is fix the packaging issue with Dire Avengers that was (apparently/supposedly) pretty much caused by Kirby trying to find "creative" ways to make players by more than one box even if they only needed one squad.
There's this persistent need by some to say that anyone complaining is just saying "I want my toys and I want them now" or "waaaaah, Marines are better than me". And most of the time, that's not what's happening. My mains through most of 8th were Marines and DG. I actually switched to Admech and Tsons because I got tired of DG needing an update so bad and the Marine fatigue was already real some time ago. It feels bad when I'm looking at my marine army that has reliably gotten a pretty good to awesome release on a regular schedule for almost 2 years while looking at all the models my buddy's Dark Eldar army can't use anymore because they were removed and never replaced.
There are quite a few major things they could have looked at before releasing Primaris, Primaris Phobos, Primaris Gravis, Primaris Awesome 2.0, Indiana Primaris and the Repulsor of Doom, Return of the Primaris LT, Primaris LT Strikes Back, etc etc.
The other issue is just the inability to say "Yeah, the Primaris seem to be getting a weirdly lopsided release schedule. People are going to all manner of mental gymnastics to avoid saying it. I mean, they don't even have to agree that it's bad, that's fine if someone disagrees, but to deny that it's even happening? In another thread someone compared the Primaris release cycle to the Admech one. What? No ...
the_scotsman wrote: The marine bloat is so silly that GW puts something out for Primaris, and then puts out ANOTHER thing that does the exact same job 100% better, making there be basically no point in the existence of the first thing.
Remember Reivers? Anyone going to buy those now that we have AP-1 Obsec Assault Intercessors and Infiltrators with better bolt carbines an anti-DS aura and good Infiltrate rules?
Reivers are a case of GW overvaluing morale rules (like they always do). However, while we don't know what's new for them yet, they'll probably still be terrible. That's because they still don't fulfill a role that Marines, let alone Primaris, need whatsoever.
the_scotsman wrote: The marine bloat is so silly that GW puts something out for Primaris, and then puts out ANOTHER thing that does the exact same job 100% better, making there be basically no point in the existence of the first thing.
Remember Reivers? Anyone going to buy those now that we have AP-1 Obsec Assault Intercessors and Infiltrators with better bolt carbines an anti-DS aura and good Infiltrate rules?
Remember the Repulsor? you know, how you could build that variant with all the las-talons? Well, he's the new tank, which doesn't pay for transport capacity, and has the shiny new multi-meltas so it does more damage for less points!
Remember the Redemptor Dreadnought? S5 guns plus dreadnought fist? Well here's the Invictor, same preferred target, same melee power, same defenses, oh by the way you get to deploy it midboard while the redemptor starts in your DZ :^)
GW didn't even bother making Suppressors a kit. It's more just a formality at this point. Marine players aren't supposed to buy the plastic kits, just buy 250$ box set and flog the not-marine half on ebay. Then buy next 250$ box set and throw out previous 250$ box set!
Don't think, just consume product and get excited for new product!
The only problem with your theory here is that no one bought any of those things before unless they LIKED them. Baseline repulsors have ALWAYS been doggak, reivers have always been terrible, redemptors are and have always been garbage except for maybe like 12 minutes when IH were at full strength and the suppressors were kak until they weren't until they were again and were part of a boxset that had that other unit you were saying marines needed to buy instead of reivers. There was no gameplay pressure to own any of these units, if anything you were actively discouraged to buy them because they use to be EVEN WORSE than they are now.
In fact, none of those units except suppressors were in any of those big boxsets. Honestly, most of your arguments are short sighted but this is so offbase that it kind of seems like you had a stroke midway through. There's a real argument about GW producing multiple kits that all serve the exact same purpose only with one being mathematically superior(a big problem stormcast face in AoS as well btw) causing problems for consumers who intend to use them on the tabletop, but you got so totally sidetracked with your rambling about boxsets that you lost it entirely.
But then again 'Don't think, just hate GW and get too worked up about it to keep track of your one cogent point!' correct?
the whole idea behind hate is that you don't need to track stuff. hate is good because it lets you skip all the unneeded thinking parts.
GW nerfs and buffs do have their fun sides. GW pulls ETB aggressors, who were considered at best ETB redepmptor tier, and suddenly in 9th if you play salamanders you want multiple squad of the bad boys.
regular primaris were meh tier all 8th, till 2.0 codex came and suddenly everything was good.
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
Rigghhht, codexes. So who's getting four of the six new codexes/supplements we'll be getting this year? Could it be the faction with the second newest codex in the game? The one that's been dominating the meta for the last year? Naahhhh, couldn't be them.
Jidmah wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.
I'm sure you don't meant it that way, but your post reads as if your are saying that marines deserve to get vastly more models than any other faction in the game because those factions have gotten models at any time in the past?
I'd also like to point out that your "brand new list" effectively says that it's ok for new armies to not receive any release whatsoever, rules or models, for 3 full years.
How about not updating loyalist Space Marines at all for another three years? I'm sure that most players won't run out of things to buy in the meantime.
Right, so I agree with you guys that they could spread the love a little more, but you also have to consider that marines are moving to the supplement model. It's super low hanging fruit to just transition the rest of the marines over now instead of waiting. DA, BA and DW are pretty old books as well (SW is the newest of the bunch).
Forgeworld is coming for everyone in one book, but not everyone will care about that I suppose.
I'd honestly hope for Nids and Daemons after DA as they're also older books.
We're at the tail end of a refresh for the main line. If you look at the rumor engine there is only one possible thing (a servo skull) that could be marine and even then it is unlikely. I don't think marines deserve more. They just serve more players simultaneously.
And as with any future boxed sets they will need to make some narrative sense. We got Admech/Crons. We could see IG splash down as the hero in a box next year. New IS would absolutely murder.
The only problem with your theory here is that no one bought any of those things before unless they LIKED them. Baseline repulsors have ALWAYS been doggak, reivers have always been terrible, redemptors are and have always been garbage except for maybe like 12 minutes when IH were at full strength and the suppressors were kak until they weren't until they were again and were part of a boxset that had that other unit you were saying marines needed to buy instead of reivers. There was no gameplay pressure to own any of these units, if anything you were actively discouraged to buy them because they use to be EVEN WORSE than they are now.
In fact, none of those units except suppressors were in any of those big boxsets. Honestly, most of your arguments are short sighted but this is so offbase that it kind of seems like you had a stroke midway through. There's a real argument about GW producing multiple kits that all serve the exact same purpose only with one being mathematically superior(a big problem stormcast face in AoS as well btw) causing problems for consumers who intend to use them on the tabletop, but you got so totally sidetracked with your rambling about boxsets that you lost it entirely.
But then again 'Don't think, just hate GW and get too worked up about it to keep track of your one cogent point!' correct?
I mean, yeah, the box set stuff is a little off the rails, but the thing is, scotsman is pointing out how silly it is that they release "unit A" that performs role "B" and then almost immediately release "Unit C" that ALSO does "role B" for the exact same army. In some ways, the original unit being bad (hello Rievers) actually makes the situation worse. Most armies who get a bad release just have to deal with it for years. Primaris got multiple bad releases and Gdubs just said "Oh sorry - here's additional models that will fix that problem, along with additional rules that alternately simply let you ignore it".
You're not wrong that a lot of the units he called out were bad at first, but that doesn't really make it any better ...
Daedalus81 wrote: Right, so I agree with you guys that they could spread the love a little more, but you also have to consider that marines are moving to the supplement model. It's super low hanging fruit to just transition the rest of the marines over now instead of waiting. DA, BA and DW are pretty old books as well (SW is the newest of the bunch).
Forgeworld is coming for everyone in one book, but not everyone will care about that I suppose.
I'd honestly hope for Nids and Daemons after DA as they're also older books.
We're at the tail end of a refresh for the main line. If you look at the rumor engine there is only one possible thing (a servo skull) that could be marine and even then it is unlikely. I don't think marines deserve more. They just serve more players simultaneously.
And as with any future boxed sets they will need to make some narrative sense. We got Admech/Crons. We could see IG splash down as the hero in a box next year. New IS would absolutely murder.
True, but I can't help thinking they could be getting the supplements out of the way faster, which would allow them to release other codexes sooner. I could be wrong, but judging from what we know, it looks like they're spreading out their releases, we know it's happening for DA. Now that might be due to production issues because of the global situation, but if it isn't, I see no reason that all the supplements couldn't be released with the codex. Any BA, SW, DW, or, DA player that wants their supplement will be picking up a codex to go with it.
As for the Imperial Armour Compendium, it's very important to me personally. If they don't fix my fw toys that aren't working, or worse, nerf the ones that are, I won't have much interest in playing until the new csm codex is released. Right now all our codex vehicles are either in bad shape, or something that I wouldn't want in my army (No daemons in my Night Lords!), and I don't have much interest in playing pure infantry. But that's just me.
I mean, yeah, the box set stuff is a little off the rails, but the thing is, scotsman is pointing out how silly it is that they release "unit A" that performs role "B" and then almost immediately release "Unit C" that ALSO does "role B" for the exact same army. In some ways, the original unit being bad (hello Rievers) actually makes the situation worse. Most armies who get a bad release just have to deal with it for years. Primaris got multiple bad releases and Gdubs just said "Oh sorry - here's additional models that will fix that problem, along with additional rules that alternately simply let you ignore it".
You're not wrong that a lot of the units he called out were bad at first, but that doesn't really make it any better ...
GW isn't fixing problems. It is filling out unit options and expanding into new rules interactions.
Bike, Assault, Land Speeder, Attack Bike, Devastators. People acted like the Repulsor was the MBT, but it was a Crusader and the Executioner a "regular" Land Raider. The turrets are either a TFC or Drop Pod analogue - though I don't doubt a Primaris Pod in the future.
If it is silly for GW to release units of similar design where were people when the Venerable, Contemptor, and Ironclad dreadnoughts hit the scene? Stormhawk / Stormraven / Stormtalon? Attack Bikes and Land Speeders? All the Land Raiders? Rhino and Razorback?
Daedalus81 wrote: Right, so I agree with you guys that they could spread the love a little more, but you also have to consider that marines are moving to the supplement model. It's super low hanging fruit to just transition the rest of the marines over now instead of waiting. DA, BA and DW are pretty old books as well (SW is the newest of the bunch).
Forgeworld is coming for everyone in one book, but not everyone will care about that I suppose.
I'd honestly hope for Nids and Daemons after DA as they're also older books.
We're at the tail end of a refresh for the main line. If you look at the rumor engine there is only one possible thing (a servo skull) that could be marine and even then it is unlikely. I don't think marines deserve more. They just serve more players simultaneously.
And as with any future boxed sets they will need to make some narrative sense. We got Admech/Crons. We could see IG splash down as the hero in a box next year. New IS would absolutely murder.
True, but I can't help thinking they could be getting the supplements out of the way faster, which would allow them to release other codexes sooner. I could be wrong, but judging from what we know, it looks like they're spreading out their releases, we know it's happening for DA. Now that might be due to production issues because of the global situation, but if it isn't, I see no reason that all the supplements couldn't be released with the codex. Any BA, SW, DW, or, DA player that wants their supplement will be picking up a codex to go with it.
As for the Imperial Armour Compendium, it's very important to me personally. If they don't fix my fw toys that aren't working, or worse, nerf the ones that are, I won't have much interest in playing until the new csm codex is released. Right now all our codex vehicles are either in bad shape, or something that I wouldn't want in my army (No daemons in my Night Lords!), and I don't have much interest in playing pure infantry. But that's just me.
2 books in October, 4 more this year is a book every 2 weeks, which I believe is the same pace they did in updating 8th.
And like 8th this would mean it takes 1.5 years to update everything.
I don't see why we would assume GW can/should go faster.
Daedalus81 wrote: Right, so I agree with you guys that they could spread the love a little more, but you also have to consider that marines are moving to the supplement model. It's super low hanging fruit to just transition the rest of the marines over now instead of waiting. DA, BA and DW are pretty old books as well (SW is the newest of the bunch).
Forgeworld is coming for everyone in one book, but not everyone will care about that I suppose.
I'd honestly hope for Nids and Daemons after DA as they're also older books.
We're at the tail end of a refresh for the main line. If you look at the rumor engine there is only one possible thing (a servo skull) that could be marine and even then it is unlikely. I don't think marines deserve more. They just serve more players simultaneously.
And as with any future boxed sets they will need to make some narrative sense. We got Admech/Crons. We could see IG splash down as the hero in a box next year. New IS would absolutely murder.
True, but I can't help thinking they could be getting the supplements out of the way faster, which would allow them to release other codexes sooner. I could be wrong, but judging from what we know, it looks like they're spreading out their releases, we know it's happening for DA. Now that might be due to production issues because of the global situation, but if it isn't, I see no reason that all the supplements couldn't be released with the codex. Any BA, SW, DW, or, DA player that wants their supplement will be picking up a codex to go with it.
As for the Imperial Armour Compendium, it's very important to me personally. If they don't fix my fw toys that aren't working, or worse, nerf the ones that are, I won't have much interest in playing until the new csm codex is released. Right now all our codex vehicles are either in bad shape, or something that I wouldn't want in my army (No daemons in my Night Lords!), and I don't have much interest in playing pure infantry. But that's just me.
2 books in October, 4 more this year is a book every 2 weeks, which I believe is the same pace they did in updating 8th.
And like 8th this would mean it takes 1.5 years to update everything.
I don't see why we would assume GW can/should go faster.
Well, IF they already have all the supplements in stock and ready to go (which they may not), they CAN release them all with the codex, thus moving up the release schedule for everyone else. Then they can return to the book every two weeks schedule. If these supplements are coming out without any new models (which is a reasonable assumption, as we've seen nothing that would suggest that they are coming with a model release), then I don't see any reason to stagger their releases. The players of those chapters will want their supplements at the same time as the codex.
As for why they should: In order to get everyone playing the same game as quickly as possible, and diminish codex creep. If these books were really written and playtested all at the same time as some playtesters have suggested, then they should be made available so everyone is on an even playing field.
GW isn't fixing problems. It is filling out unit options and expanding into new rules interactions.
Bike, Assault, Land Speeder, Attack Bike, Devastators. People acted like the Repulsor was the MBT, but it was a Crusader and the Executioner a "regular" Land Raider. The turrets are either a TFC or Drop Pod analogue - though I don't doubt a Primaris Pod in the future.
If it is silly for GW to release units of similar design where were people when the Venerable, Contemptor, and Ironclad dreadnoughts hit the scene? Stormhawk / Stormraven / Stormtalon? Attack Bikes and Land Speeders? All the Land Raiders? Rhino and Razorback?
I realize they aren't literally fixing problems, but you can't tell me you don't see the irony in Space Marines getting so many releases so fast that they begin to invalidate themselves while other armies haven't seen anything useful (or anytign at all in some cases) in years ...
And yes - Razorback should have just been a upgrade to the Rhino sheet and the LRs should all be on one sheet. I think you can make an argument for Attack bikes and speeders not invalidating each other though ...
GW isn't fixing problems. It is filling out unit options and expanding into new rules interactions.
Bike, Assault, Land Speeder, Attack Bike, Devastators. People acted like the Repulsor was the MBT, but it was a Crusader and the Executioner a "regular" Land Raider. The turrets are either a TFC or Drop Pod analogue - though I don't doubt a Primaris Pod in the future.
If it is silly for GW to release units of similar design where were people when the Venerable, Contemptor, and Ironclad dreadnoughts hit the scene? Stormhawk / Stormraven / Stormtalon? Attack Bikes and Land Speeders? All the Land Raiders? Rhino and Razorback?
I realize they aren't literally fixing problems, but you can't tell me you don't see the irony in Space Marines getting so many releases so fast that they begin to invalidate themselves while other armies haven't seen anything useful (or anytign at all in some cases) in years ...
And yes - Razorback should have just been a upgrade to the Rhino sheet and the LRs should all be on one sheet. I think you can make an argument for Attack bikes and speeders not invalidating each other though ...
Honestly I'm for consolidating the Ironclad/Boxnaught into the same profile now.
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.
It's funny you say that, because Elves and Stormcast both get complained about in AoS despite their release windows being fairly small.
Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
Honestly I'm for consolidating the Ironclad/Boxnaught into the same profile now.
I hadn't thought of that before, but the argument could probably be made.
Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
It's not just here. Everyone wants to say "It's just Dakka" but it's not. Some of us do complain too loudly, but a lot of people seem to want to do a lot of hand waving around the All-Primaris-All-The-Time release schedule and I don't think that helps. I'm hoping that, after they get through October and then the next 3 or 4 Marine releases after that (the snowflake books) they will have it out of their system and will go back to a more balanced schedule.
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.
It's funny you say that, because Elves and Stormcast both get complained about in AoS despite their release windows being fairly small.
Well, we're up to what, four or five Elf factions released compared to two Dwarf ones? I'm not surprised there's complaints!
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
Honestly I'm for consolidating the Ironclad/Boxnaught into the same profile now.
I hadn't thought of that before, but the argument could probably be made.
The main argument for that from me is:
1. Theoretically, there's no reason a base Dreadnought can't have access to the Chainfist or Seismic Hammer
2. There's no reason there couldn't be a Venerable Ironclad Dread anyway
Just consolidating the whole profile into a WS/BS2+ T8 monster would do a lot to open options in terms of crunch and modeling. The only kicker is regular Dreads not having access to HK Missiles but that's terribly minor to be honest, and the Assault Launchers which have low chances to do anything more than a single Mortal Wound anyway (and quite frankly most people forget it even exists).
This also differentiates the Redemptor Dread compared to Boxnaughts which would be more experienced in terms of fighting as well. This also makes the Relic Contemptor (nobody cares about the codex entry) less powerful in comparison and it's more about what you want in the army compared to just whats more powerful.
Daedalus81 wrote: There would also probably be less complaining if people didn't perceive themselves as weaker than marines, which means codex more than it does models.
There would be less complaining if releases, both books and models, were more evenly distributed across all factions.
It's funny you say that, because Elves and Stormcast both get complained about in AoS despite their release windows being fairly small.
Well, we're up to what, four or five Elf factions released compared to two Dwarf ones? I'm not surprised there's complaints!
Three.
Lumineth, Idoneth, and Daughters of Khaine...and Daughters initial launch? It had no new models.
Sylvaneth are arguably an Elf faction. They have the keyword but they really should not, outside of Alarielle and the Kurnothi from Beastgrave.
Honestly I'm for consolidating the Ironclad/Boxnaught into the same profile now.
I hadn't thought of that before, but the argument could probably be made.
The main argument for that from me is:
1. Theoretically, there's no reason a base Dreadnought can't have access to the Chainfist or Seismic Hammer
2. There's no reason there couldn't be a Venerable Ironclad Dread anyway
Just consolidating the whole profile into a WS/BS2+ T8 monster would do a lot to open options in terms of crunch and modeling. The only kicker is regular Dreads not having access to HK Missiles but that's terribly minor to be honest, and the Assault Launchers which have low chances to do anything more than a single Mortal Wound anyway (and quite frankly most people forget it even exists).
This also differentiates the Redemptor Dread compared to Boxnaughts which would be more experienced in terms of fighting as well. This also makes the Relic Contemptor (nobody cares about the codex entry) less powerful in comparison and it's more about what you want in the army compared to just whats more powerful.
HKs on a Venerable Dred would make for some amazing apha-strike capability.
2 Las, 1 Krak, and 2 HKs on a 2+ platform that now ignores movement penalties? Super good.
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
That was the point I was trying to make, yes.
With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
That was the point I was trying to make, yes.
With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is?
Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
That was the point I was trying to make, yes.
With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is?
Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
Pretty high, the only thing I can foresee is maybe multipart kits for the indomitus/starter kits that don't get a pass now but that'd be no big loss.
What do you think they can actually add now? They waited 12 months from the last release for this wave.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The main argument for that from me is:
1. Theoretically, there's no reason a base Dreadnought can't have access to the Chainfist or Seismic Hammer
2. There's no reason there couldn't be a Venerable Ironclad Dread anyway
Sadly the arguments against such points are easy:
1. The Chainfist/Seismic Hammer does not come in the base Dread kit.
2. There is no Venerable Ironclad miniature.
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
That was the point I was trying to make, yes.
With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is?
Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
pretty good given all the (loyalist) marine releases will have been handled. we might see grey knights or CSMs getting something but if thats an issue I'm sorry but it's an donkey-cave thing to tell GK and CSM players that they can't have new things because someone else peripharilly related to them got new things
Jidmah wrote: Some people will always complain. However, right now almost every single thread on this forum is about how GW is flooding us with marines while one-upping their own rules with each release. I specifically had to ban this discussion from the *ork* tactics thread or it would even be continued there.
This amount of complaining isn't normal, not even for dakka.
This amount of marine favoritism isn't normal, even for GW.
That was the point I was trying to make, yes.
With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is?
Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
Pretty high, the only thing I can foresee is maybe multipart kits for the indomitus/starter kits that don't get a pass now but that'd be no big loss.
What do you think they can actually add now? They waited 12 months from the last release for this wave.
A primaris jump assault unit because for some reason they needed a full kit to replace every single special and heavy weapon option present in the tactical marine kit and they needed it so bad they forgot to replace assault marines.
Dudeface wrote: With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is? Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
pretty good given all the (loyalist) marine releases will have been handled. we might see grey knights or CSMs getting something but if thats an issue I'm sorry but it's an donkey-cave thing to tell GK and CSM players that they can't have new things because someone else peripharilly related to them got new things
I think both GK and CSM would be quite content with no primaris releases
But yeah, I fully expect to see another wave of primaris before easter.
Dudeface wrote: With a little luck, once the supplements are out the way there'll be a lengthy marine break. Even 12 months would be enough of a cleanser.
lets be real, how likely do you think that is?
Lets be super optimistic. What are the odds of no new Primaris/vehicle for the first 6 months of 2021 (not counting DA release)?
pretty good given all the (loyalist) marine releases will have been handled. we might see grey knights or CSMs getting something but if thats an issue I'm sorry but it's an donkey-cave thing to tell GK and CSM players that they can't have new things because someone else peripharilly related to them got new things
I think both GK and CSM would be quite content with no primaris releases
But yeah, I fully expect to see another wave of primaris before easter.
with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
You know, I think I'd feel worse about Tyranids not being updated if it wasn't for the fact that replacing all my Tyranid models with ugly new ubernids would be costly and pointless.
Nurglitch wrote: You know, I think I'd feel worse about Tyranids not being updated if it wasn't for the fact that replacing all my Tyranid models with ugly new ubernids would be costly and pointless.
TBF, the nid range is as a whole, pretty awesome, and probably the only kit close that aged as well comparatively were ork boyz.
Jidmah wrote: But yeah, I fully expect to see another wave of primaris before easter.
Question though:
Is this a wave of entirely new and unnecessary units, so that we'll be seeing re-printed extra datasheets in every expansion until the 2.0 9th Ed Marine 'Dex hits?
-OR-
Would it instead be a wave of "left over" units that don't have full multi-part, multi-option kits (like Suppressors and Outriders)?
How about not updating loyalist Space Marines at all for another three years? I'm sure that most players won't run out of things to buy in the meantime.
Finish the switch-over and it's entirely possible outside of starter sets. And I'm hoping they're ready to do an IG or AM starter set instead too.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
Jump characters, bike characters, primaris planes and a gravis unit that is strictly better than an aspect warrior of your choice
Jump Fight Infantry too. But none of that has been teased/previewed yet. The Marine ATV, Gladiators, Speeders and Heavy Intercessors all should be expected out before an Indomitus style box. Hell with Heavy Intercessors for 2x5 troops it may BE the Indomitus style box.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
Jump characters, bike characters, primaris planes and a gravis unit that is strictly better than an aspect warrior of your choice
a small release that would be perfect for a campaign book in the tail end of 9E.
That is a more significant release then most factions get.
a character and a plane?
1 Jump charachter
1 Bike Charachter
1 Primaris Plane
1 Gravis unit.
that is 4.
F.e the recent chaos rework, added:
Venomcrawler
Foot HQ executioner.
Foot HQ Possessed psyker
Foot Elite Bigger possessed
The rest were reworks which were allready existing units.
Marines, and yes counting havocs in that aswell.
Obliterators.
Abbadon the purse robber
DA.
Terminators.
YMMV but that was a major rework for a major factions.
By comparison, guard got in the meantime a bunch of limited edition HQ's.
Short of a "new" faction release, most factions infact struggle to come even close, to the ammount of releases.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
Jump characters, bike characters, primaris planes and a gravis unit that is strictly better than an aspect warrior of your choice
a small release that would be perfect for a campaign book in the tail end of 9E.
That is a more significant release then most factions get.
a character and a plane?
1 Jump charachter
1 Bike Charachter
1 Primaris Plane
1 Gravis unit.
that is 4.
F.e the recent chaos rework, added:
Venomcrawler
Foot HQ executioner.
Foot HQ Possessed psyker
Foot Elite Bigger possessed
The rest were reworks which were allready existing units.
Marines, and yes counting havocs in that aswell.
Obliterators.
Abbadon the purse robber
DA.
Terminators.
YMMV but that was a major rework for a major factions.
By comparison, guard got in the meantime a bunch of limited edition HQ's.
Short of a "new" faction release, most factions infact struggle to come even close, to the ammount of releases.
You missed the roller queen himself the disco lord. They also released the Lord with thunderhammer stand alone.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
Jump characters, bike characters, primaris planes and a gravis unit that is strictly better than an aspect warrior of your choice
a small release that would be perfect for a campaign book in the tail end of 9E.
That is a more significant release then most factions get.
a character and a plane?
Spoiler:
1 Jump charachter
1 Bike Charachter
1 Primaris Plane
1 Gravis unit.
that is 4.
F.e the recent chaos rework, added:
Venomcrawler
Foot HQ executioner.
Foot HQ Possessed psyker
Foot Elite Bigger possessed
The rest were reworks which were allready existing units.
Marines, and yes counting havocs in that aswell.
Obliterators.
Abbadon the purse robber
DA.
Terminators.
YMMV but that was a major rework for a major factions.
By comparison, guard got in the meantime a bunch of limited edition HQ's.
Short of a "new" faction release, most factions infact struggle to come even close, to the ammount of releases.
You missed the roller queen himself the disco lord. They also released the Lord with thunderhammer stand alone.
And here i stood before my vitrine and wondered what i forgot !
As for the thunderhammer lord, i'd say it's "just " another lord so not a release and more of a rework.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
Jump characters, bike characters, primaris planes and a gravis unit that is strictly better than an aspect warrior of your choice
a small release that would be perfect for a campaign book in the tail end of 9E.
That is a more significant release then most factions get.
a character and a plane?
Spoiler:
1 Jump charachter
1 Bike Charachter
1 Primaris Plane
1 Gravis unit.
that is 4.
F.e the recent chaos rework, added:
Venomcrawler
Foot HQ executioner.
Foot HQ Possessed psyker
Foot Elite Bigger possessed
The rest were reworks which were allready existing units.
Marines, and yes counting havocs in that aswell.
Obliterators.
Abbadon the purse robber
DA.
Terminators.
YMMV but that was a major rework for a major factions.
By comparison, guard got in the meantime a bunch of limited edition HQ's.
Short of a "new" faction release, most factions infact struggle to come even close, to the ammount of releases.
You missed the roller queen himself the disco lord. They also released the Lord with thunderhammer stand alone.
And here i stood before my vitrine and wondered what i forgot !
As for the thunderhammer lord, i'd say it's "just " another lord so not a release and more of a rework.
It's an option the codex didn't have beforehand so I'd say it counts. It was a really good release by all accounts and much needed given the crummy state of the core of the range.
Not Online!!! wrote: with what contents?
More jumptroops seems the only thing really missing.
New marines? Pretty obvious...
It's not what marines need. It's when GW feels need to create new flow of cash flowing. Old kits dont' sell as much as new ones(most of sales in lifetime are sold in matter of months). Marines sell more than non marines. Thus it's in ££££ interest for GW to keep chucking out new marine kits.
It's whatever they design. Not what they need. Heavy assault intercessors. Stealthy aggressors. Phobos melee unit. Whatever GW decides next. What marines need in game is secondary consideration.
Jidmah wrote: But yeah, I fully expect to see another wave of primaris before easter.
Question though:
Is this a wave of entirely new and unnecessary units, so that we'll be seeing re-printed extra datasheets in every expansion until the 2.0 9th Ed Marine 'Dex hits?
-OR-
Would it instead be a wave of "left over" units that don't have full multi-part, multi-option kits (like Suppressors and Outriders)?
The former. I don't really consider putting existing units into proper boxes as a "wave".
Nurglitch wrote: You know, I think I'd feel worse about Tyranids not being updated if it wasn't for the fact that replacing all my Tyranid models with ugly new ubernids would be costly and pointless.
TBF, the nid range is as a whole, pretty awesome, and probably the only kit close that aged as well comparatively were ork boyz.
I hear this a lot, and I get it, but compare the official Hormagaunts:
To what a member of the community cooked up:
And which are now 3D printable:
A lot's changed in the two decades since the iconic Tyranid Gaunts and Warriors were released. The range is complete and mostly plastic so it's not in dire need of update like Eldar, but I think stylistically there's a lot of room for improvement, and some of the kits themselves show their age. Gaunts in particular are very statically posed, and lack detail on the front of the head due to the clamshell design.
Huh - I apparently completely missed Hormagaunts going from four stabby front limbs to two at some point.
If nothing else, Hormagaunts could do with redesigning in such a way that a, the center of gravity is over the damned base; and b, that the join between model and base was more solid.
I'd also say be careful what you wish for. The new Flying bases suck. The iron halos that aren't halos on the new Bladeguard I can already tell are going to suck.
None of the indomitus have a stand alone yet, but I think the Outriders will get one too and not get the Suppressor treatment, but not until theyve sold all the starters they're going to.
Dysartes wrote: Huh - I apparently completely missed Hormagaunts going from four stabby front limbs to two at some point.
If nothing else, Hormagaunts could do with redesigning in such a way that a, the center of gravity is over the damned base; and b, that the join between model and base was more solid.
Just use counterweight pebbles picked up in the back garden like a true scrub
Nurglitch wrote: You know, I think I'd feel worse about Tyranids not being updated if it wasn't for the fact that replacing all my Tyranid models with ugly new ubernids would be costly and pointless.
TBF, the nid range is as a whole, pretty awesome, and probably the only kit close that aged as well comparatively were ork boyz.
I hear this a lot, and I get it, but compare the official Hormagaunts:
To what a member of the community cooked up:
And which are now 3D printable:
A lot's changed in the two decades since the iconic Tyranid Gaunts and Warriors were released. The range is complete and mostly plastic so it's not in dire need of update like Eldar, but I think stylistically there's a lot of room for improvement, and some of the kits themselves show their age. Gaunts in particular are very statically posed, and lack detail on the front of the head due to the clamshell design.
Those are gorgeous, but then I'd feel bad about how Hormagaunts suck genetically evolved ass.
one thing about new gaunts is you know GW'd overload the detail on them, no one wants to spend hours picking out the detail on a mini you need to paint hundreds of
Breton wrote: I'd also say be careful what you wish for. The new Flying bases suck. The iron halos that aren't halos on the new Bladeguard I can already tell are going to suck.
The 'iron halos' aren't that bad. I personally think they're excessive and gaudy and don't fit the kind of aesthetic I like (so I clipped mine), but they're a solid part of the backpack
Breton wrote: I'd also say be careful what you wish for. The new Flying bases suck. The iron halos that aren't halos on the new Bladeguard I can already tell are going to suck.
The 'iron halos' aren't that bad. I personally think they're excessive and gaudy and don't fit the kind of aesthetic I like (so I clipped mine), but they're a solid part of the backpack
I had to glue two of them back on after dropping the mini. While I was painting. They're not going to last long when playing.
BrianDavion wrote: the Ironhalos also are a great place to mount various little bits to add some character to the mini
like a wolf skull on this battle leader
And given how many minis have them now, you can mix'n'match to make unique looking characters.
My Indomitus Captain has the Iron Halo from this guy on his backpack.
Nurglitch wrote: You know, I think I'd feel worse about Tyranids not being updated if it wasn't for the fact that replacing all my Tyranid models with ugly new ubernids would be costly and pointless.
TBF, the nid range is as a whole, pretty awesome, and probably the only kit close that aged as well comparatively were ork boyz.
I hear this a lot, and I get it, but compare the official Hormagaunts:
To what a member of the community cooked up:
And which are now 3D printable:
A lot's changed in the two decades since the iconic Tyranid Gaunts and Warriors were released. The range is complete and mostly plastic so it's not in dire need of update like Eldar, but I think stylistically there's a lot of room for improvement, and some of the kits themselves show their age. Gaunts in particular are very statically posed, and lack detail on the front of the head due to the clamshell design.
Oh wow, those are fantastic. They look reminiscent of velociraptors.
Breton wrote: I'd also say be careful what you wish for. The new Flying bases suck. The iron halos that aren't halos on the new Bladeguard I can already tell are going to suck.
The 'iron halos' aren't that bad. I personally think they're excessive and gaudy and don't fit the kind of aesthetic I like (so I clipped mine), but they're a solid part of the backpack
I had to glue two of them back on after dropping the mini. While I was painting. They're not going to last long when playing.
I'm morbidly impressed by that. I took clippers to mine, but kept in a bits bag with the other spare parts. I'm currently squeezing one between my thumb and finger, its flexing but not breaking or picking up a permanent bend- its a solid little piece despite being cut free at the bottom.
)
Just thought I would point that out.
