Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

I see we've arrived at "I dont like this army, therefore it shouldn't exist"-o'clock again.

Deleted, changed my mind

The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

Your'e like 5 layers of Marine Sue behind at this point if you're whining about DW. Get in line behind GK, Primaris, and Custodes.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SecondTime wrote:
DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

Your'e like 5 layers of Marine Sue behind at this point if you're whining about DW. Get in line behind GK, Primaris, and Custodes.

OH they're all awful, too. What you just described above for elite units are the Astartes. The Sueier Astartes aren't necessary or relevant.

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

I actually love thème very much, the spécialité graines against Denis kill teams thing us something i love for sure... Plus i actually like em because of Eliphas' Behemoth lol.

I agree that the downside of this is putting them as super super soldiers which we've had eniygh of already. But still, even wondered whether i shouldn't start an army of deathwatch

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

That's exactly what they are. DW missions would be executed by Astartes. That's the whole point of Astartes. They can't wage proper war due to their numbers. Unless you want to lose 5 chapters a day against Tau doomsday weapons.

I think they're great... as justification for an RPG party of assorted different backgrounds, or at the kill team/combat patrol style missions. I just don't feel they scale well to where 40k is at these days (though ironically, they'd have been pretty neat back in RT).

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

Well, Nights Watch and ASoIaF was a big thing in (especially British) nerd-circles in the mid-90s, lol.

GW's concept of what constitutes an "army" is rather nebulous. Basically any potential armed force that exists within the 40k universe gets to become an "army". If one were to do a modern combat game in that vein, we'd be seeing drug running Biker gangs lining up for battle against High Altitude Low Open parachuting SAS, or desert militia Technical caravans getting in pitched firefights with the FBI, or games where the Russian 4th Guards Tank Division is its own faction separate from the rest of the Russian Federation Army and is faced against the US Secret Service in urban combat. Those are the sorts of things 40k routinely presents.

That said, the Deathwatch have been called their own chapter for as long as I've been playing 40k, though being their own dedicated army only dates back a couple editions, however they were intended to be part of an "Alien Hunters" faction in 3E that never managed materialized to accompany the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters factions of that era. I think being a chamber militant as part of an Inquisition faction would make more sense, same for GK's, but GW appears to have desired otherwise. I think they make a lot more sense in skirmish games and RPGs, but as a full faction on their own in 40k do feel a bit mis-scaled.

the_scotsman wrote:

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

A Watch Company, analogous to a slightly smaller Marine demi-company formation and the most commonly utilized strategic element in the newer lore, deploys 40 bodies plus command and support elements. Which coincides pretty damn closely to 9th edition 2000 point games.

I agree with Vaktathi. GW needs to get their head on straight about what they're trying to represent.

I don't need to play a game that's the U.S. Secret Service with British MI6 allies against NORAD.

Astartes are already alien hunters though, right? This is just triple downing on power fantasy of being the MOST ELITEST EVAR.

SecondTime wrote:
Astartes are already alien hunters though, right? This is just triple downing on power fantasy of being the MOST ELITEST EVAR.

Only in the sense that the Imperial Guard are also alien hunters.

As a branch of the Imperial armed services, Space Marines as a whole aren't specialised in the foes they fight. Specific Chapters may, depending on where in the galaxy they're based, end up fighting aliens more often, but equally other Chapters will fight Renegades more often, or Heretics, etc. The Deathwatch are - in the background, at least - hyper-specialised in fighting alien forces, with more knowledge, equipment, etc at their disposal, but that specialisation would mean that they'd theoretically be less effective at taking on other foes.

Knowledge is power; guard it well - a lot of what the Deathwatch knows, and has access to, would cause the =][= to come down on you like a tonne of bricks were you a regular citizen.

When the Deamon Hunter and Witch Hunter dexes came out in 3rd, it was established that:

Chamber Militant Ordo Xenos = Deathwatch
Chamber Militant Ordo Malleus = Grey Knights
Chamber Militant Ordo Hereticus + Sisters of Battle

GW minimized the relationships in 8th. They were still there; there were hints, and at the very least in the GK dex, an explicit reference.
The preview article for DW was titled "The Chamber Militant."

I will be very curious to see whether GW re-emphasizes the concept of Chambers Militant; Kyria Draxus isa pretty big mover and shaker in the Pariah Nexus, and Necrons fall under jurisdiction of the DW. We've got two more WD Flashpoints (at least) set in the Pariah Nexus. DW have a role to play. Now GW's walking back of the Chambers for 8th was never a full on retcon; it was more and error of omission. In other words, they may not have explicitly mentioned the Chambers, but they haven't written anything that prevents them from re-examining the concept later.

I personally think the Inquisition and its affiliated forces is one of the most interesting aspects of 40k; without them, the 40k Universe spins closer to the more generic sort of Starship Trooper Sci-fi. For this reason, I feel like the Chambers are always important and relevant. Lots of people on Dakka prioritize the balance and playability of the game over its background and immersiveness. They want it to be more streamlined and easier to play, because to them, it is only a game. This is a valid and legitimate point of view. And from that point of view, threads like these absolutely make sense.

But the other, equally valid point of view, is that the tabletop game is one element of the overwhelming multimedia entertainment industry that is 40k, and the background, history, fluff and flavour. From that perspective, both the Deathwatch and the Greyknights are an important part of what keeps 40k separate from other space settings, stories and games.
I was ecstatic when DW got a Codex- I was always bitter that 3rd became 4th before we had an Alien Hunter dex; it left the edition incomplete from my point of view. And in fact, while I love the Crusade system, and as a result I love 9th, the DW supplement is literally the only release for 9th that I'm excited about.

I find vanilla marines kinda boring- I haven't been a fan of non-Chamber Marines since about '93.And other than Necrons, that's all 9th has been so far. I'm picking up the supplement for sure; I'll also have to pick up the dex to use it. I'm happy about the former, and less so about the latter.

I hope they never squat the Chamber armies, and in fact I'd love to see an Imperial Agents dex that writes rules for Inquisitors that reflect Chamber relationships on the table.I had hoped it would come in 8th; the return of Rogue Traders to the game made it more necessary than it had been in previous editions. But once again, GW hit the reset button before the edition had everything it needed to be complete. Now that we're here, and BSF is on the out, I'm not 100% sure it will happen at all- there's no way of knowing whether or not GW will continue to support Rogue Traders and all the other fluffy stuff we got from minigames in 8th.

I felt the idea of the Deathwatch showing up as just a squad of vets with experience against certain Xenos worked ok. A whole army of them is silly. The UM Tyranid Hunters did the trick.

Same with GK fwiw. I'd have been plenty happy if they had just stayed as Powerful Psyker Terminator teams with Nemesis Force weapons.

I have never had a DW codex so how has it played out in the past? My understanding is that, especially with the codex and supplement way of working, if you play DW you’re not going to end up fielding an army much different from any other SM, just with some specific characters and units.

Or are DW design to be a special addition to a “proper chapter” to represent their kill team style back ground?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
I see we've arrived at "I dont like this army, therefore it shouldn't exist"-o'clock again.

I didn’t say that they shouldn’t exists I am asking if people think DW as they are currently represented suck

I quite like the idea of them, and enjoyed the RPG.

That said, I think that factions that are specifically designed to counter other factions can be very problematic from a game perpective; Grey Knight smites vs Daemons for example.

mrFickle wrote:
Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

All marines are spec ops, Deathwatch are just a standing force at the discretion of the ordo xenos.

They’re not even specifically more elite, they’d lack many of the tools or resources a normal chapter has in favour of deploying even smaller strike forces for niche missions. I doubt they’d function anything like as well deployed on mass as a coherent force.

Admittedly primaris diluted this somewhat by allowing what amounts to basic tacs but a few inches taller in instead of specialists with specific gear.

DW are pretty neat, lore-wise. The trouble is GW separated them from Ordo Xenos and tried to make them an army. After all, we need more variety in marines......

They would be best represented and utilized in a proper 40k skirmish game, where their high customization and special ops missions and tactics could shine.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

I actually like them in lore, which I should have said, they were originally the faction of space marines I wanted to play but didn't know how to execute them on an army scale, and Kill Team wasn't around at the time for me to do a squad.

I just don't think they or any other small, elite or rarely seen faction should get an army, but that is definitely a discussion for another day.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

You were looking to buy some yesterday, what changed your mind?

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

The people that complaint about Deathwatch also complaint about GK, about Custodes, about Tempestus, about Harlequins. I have 0 respect for that kind of people. The "If I don't like it nobody should because -language removed- that doesnt affect me in any way" kind of people.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?

What is this even supposed to mean?

mrFickle wrote:
I have never had a DW codex so how has it played out in the past? My understanding is that, especially with the codex and supplement way of working, if you play DW you’re not going to end up fielding an army much different from any other SM, just with some specific characters and units.

Or are DW design to be a special addition to a “proper chapter” to represent their kill team style back ground?

Thematically, what makes them special comes into play more in small games than large ones. Their ability to take Assault Marines, Terminators and Bikers in the same KT is awesome when you've only got a patrol detachment to work with. Special ammunition/ unique weapons are also very cool. And their strats were very specific to the enemies they would face, which is different than the way most armies work. Having said that, there are drawbacks to having strats function that way, even though it does fit the lore.

But Crusade content in the DW supplement is what I'm really looking forward to- they are an army that was made for Crusade style play. I'm a little bit of a nut when it comes to this kinda thing- I prefer having small armies from many factions than a few large ones; it's better for storytelling and campaign play. And while I don't like non-Ordo marines much, I have the Blood Angel Terminators from Spacehulk and the Spacewolves from Tooth and Claw. So my plan is to play with my SW and BA until they earn enough Battle Honours that they qualify to become Deathwatch.

Then, and only then, does the Deathwatch Crusade make planetfall, under the orders of their Ordo Xenos. Candidates from both BA and SW are accepted into the ranks. What that means is that the Deathwatch will include BA and SW Battle Honours, Battlescars and Crusade Relics, in addition to their own chapter specific content.

Pretty neat, right?

And it's something that I wish more of the "I only play 2k battles at tournaments" crowd would keep in mind when they imply or explicitly state that some thing should be cut so that a tournament can feel more streamlined. What may not make sense in a tournament often makes sense in a narrative Crusade. Because the game is designed to satisfy both player bases,more options are better.

It's easier for players to deal with something that is present- they can choose not to buy it, not to play it, or not to play against it (though in tournies, that isn't always possible). If, on the other hand, the Cult of streamlining has its way, those options disappear for the narrative players, whose stories and campaigns need them in order to provide depth. It's a lot harder to write houserules to bring back stuff that's been cut and have those houserules accepted by other players, than it is to just choose not to buy that which you do not like.

 Galas wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?

What is this even supposed to mean?

I'm attempting to be silly by saying "Warhammer shouldn't exist because it's incompatible with Tau" instead of "Tau shouldn't exist because they're incompatible with Warhammer", and now I've had to explain the joke so it's clearly fallen flat.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

Pretty much. They should have been what Legion of the Damned were in terms of a specialist unit that reflects that they attached to a larger army. Unfortunately, it seems like LoTD are going to be their own army too at some point in the future.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

You can have that fluff without writing a full codex and supporting miniature line for it.

Deathwatch could have been a couple entries with a couple fancy pieces of wargear with a custom Trait or two. That would have been fine.

Pretty much. They should have been what Legion of the Damned were in terms of a specialist unit that reflects that they attached to a larger army. Unfortunately, it seems like LoTD are going to be their own army too at some point in the future.

LOTD as primaris though? Aren’t they an old chapter that got sucked into the warp or something??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

All marines are spec ops, Deathwatch are just a standing force at the discretion of the ordo xenos.

They’re not even specifically more elite, they’d lack many of the tools or resources a normal chapter has in favour of deploying even smaller strike forces for niche missions. I doubt they’d function anything like as well deployed on mass as a coherent force.

Admittedly primaris diluted this somewhat by allowing what amounts to basic tacs but a few inches taller in instead of specialists with specific gear.

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

This.
As with a few other so called armies.

A game played above Kill Team level is always depicting a small area of a much larger, ongoing battle in the background or offscreen.

I see no problem with having a "2000 points Kill Team".

GW should flesh out more sub-factions with a few unique models and upgrade sprues. Really adds some character to them.

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

The people that complaint about Deathwatch also complaint about GK, about Custodes, about Tempestus, about Harlequins. I have 0 respect for that kind of people. The "If I don't like it nobody should because I'm an insecure prick that cannot accept that other people enjoys stuff I don't that doesnt affect me in any way" kind of people.

With regards to all these factions, I think the way GW handled Stormtroopers/Scions within the IG codex is pretty solid and offers a great roadmap for other microfactions, offering the subfactiona way it can operate on its own in a limited capacity but that otherwise operates as a semi-independent part of a more cohesive army.

Well, by that logic, Rubrics and Plague Marines should've remained elite-choices in CSM, harlequins elite-choices in Craftworlds.

But spin-off Codexes are popular (even if the stuff get's kinda rolled back into a supplement format 10 years later).

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

Maybe you can actually, oh I dont know, read their Codex or source material and find out? Instead of bitching on the internet that you dont understand them and therefore they have no right to exist.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

 jeff white wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

This.
As with a few other so called armies.

Well I'll shorten it up this time, but I'll say what I've said before:

3rd edition defined Chambers Militant as armies. I think that was 2003. So no, neither Deathwatch nor Grey Knights have always been small kill teams. In 3rd, they were chamber militant armies- and while it's true that DW didn't get a dex in that edition, this has more to do with the thing that I dislike most about GW, which is their tendency to do edition updates instead of actually expanding the game into new territory.

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.

No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content. The amount of factions in warhammer is an extremely small component in relation with the production time that all the other GW games need and receive.

Do we really want to go back to the dark age of specialists games closed and only fantasy and 40k receiving support in a extremely sparse way? In the past 3 years we have had big releases for:
Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Genestealer Cult, Adeptus Mechanicus, Orks, Necrons. GW is pumping out content, armies, boxed and specialists games at a rate no one could have imagined 4 years ago. So people should probably, relax a little bit.
And stop wanting for the toys of other kids to be taken away so daddy GW can give them the attention they feel they deserve. Is pathetic. Tau haven't received a new kit barring Shadowsun (Great model I love her) in what, 4-5 years? You don't see me crying a river for it.

SecondTime wrote:

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

Ah the old "just asking the question" bs. Nice try. Too bad you already tipped your hand at being interested only in gatekeeping what other people can play.

I thibk the issue isn't should or shouldn't they, they do and it sucks to be the unfavoured child when it comes to having your armie loose rules.

However I do think how GW handled Not only Marines 2.0 but the transition to 9th edition and the horrific joke that is CA2020, and the lackluster Imperial Armour book.

Is rightly starting to upset people, they are happy to pump out more and more versions of loyalist marines supliment after supliment with totally unnecessary units, while factions are being left in a bordeline unplayable state.

Either this is wilful negligence or they truely are that clueless about their game changes that they don't realise that the game is an unbalanced broken mess.

 Galas wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.


No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content.

By the same token however, it took literally almost a quarter century between the release of Sisters of Battle and their first major product line update. There are a large number of Eldar units that haven't been touched since 2E. The newest basic Guardsmen sculpts available from GW are 6 editions and almost 20 years old, with most of the vehicles being only minor tweaks of mid 90's kits with basically nothing new for three editions now (and in fact have lost several units from the codex), while Dark Eldar have been gutted in many respects from their 5E reboot after waiting 11 years for an update. There's only so much marketing bandwidth in a year, you can only release so many SKU's a month and have there be shelf space for it all. GW's website lists 36 factions, and 16 of them are Space Marines of *some* sort. With 36 armies, given the lifespan of 40k's last 3 editions, that's not enough time for each faction to get its own book, much less additional releases, within the span of an edition unless GW decides to start putting out faction books at a pace greater than once a month. It appears they may be starting to do that, but there's a limit to how fast they can go (EDIT: with their current retail model and reliance on physical books, etc).

From that perspective, having gobs of minorly differentiated Space Marine factions taking up half your release pipeline, that absolutely does limit resources available for other projects and releases.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, by that logic, Rubrics and Plague Marines should've remained elite-choices in CSM, harlequins elite-choices in Craftworlds.

But spin-off Codexes are popular (even if the stuff get's kinda rolled back into a supplement format 10 years later).

I don’t see how it’s the same, thousand sons and death guard were lesion armies since 30k and were intended to be.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galas wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

Each new factions is somebody future favourite faction. Admech was a small faction when released, the same for genestealer cult. Look at them now.


No. Having more factions doesnt detracts from any faction receiving content.

By the same token however, it took literally almost a quarter century between the release of Sisters of Battle and their first major product line update. There are a large number of Eldar units that haven't been touched since 2E. The newest basic Guardsmen sculpts available from GW are 6 editions and almost 20 years old, with most of the vehicles being only minor tweaks of mid 90's kits with basically nothing new for three editions now (and in fact have lost several units from the codex), while Dark Eldar have been gutted in many respects from their 5E reboot after waiting 11 years for an update. There's only so much marketing bandwidth in a year, you can only release so many SKU's a month and have there be shelf space for it all. GW's website lists 36 factions, and 16 of them are Space Marines of *some* sort. With 36 armies, given the lifespan of 40k's last 3 editions, that's not enough time for each faction to get its own book, much less additional releases, within the span of an edition unless GW decides to start putting out faction books at a pace greater than once a month. It appears they may be starting to do that, but there's a limit to how fast they can go (EDIT: with their current retail model and reliance on physical books, etc).

From that perspective, having gobs of minorly differentiated Space Marine factions taking up half your release pipeline, that absolutely does limit resources available for other projects and releases.

So you are saying that in a hypothetical world were GW released much less marines all of those things would have been done?

I'm gonna disagree. If GW wants to do something, THEY DO IT. Is not like they are limited, they are in a constant state of expansion FFS, and they produce many more stuff not only 40K ones.

If Dark Eldars haven't received new models in 11 years is not because Space Marines.
If Sisters of Battle didn't received anything for 20 years was not because Space Marines.
If Imperial Guard is sitting with old models just like Eldar, is not because Space Marines.

Is just because GW didn't wanted to do it. In that time, they made literally ALL of AoS armies, for example, revived nearly ALL specialist games with plastic miniature lines with resin add-ons, and made more than half a dozen army releases for 40k.

I'm not defending the amount of space marine stuff GW is pumping out. But theres no future were GW stops doing it, because without space marines GW as it is now wouldnt even exist.

Ice_can wrote:
I thibk the issue isn't should or shouldn't they, they do and it sucks to be the unfavoured child when it comes to having your armie loose rules.

However I do think how GW handled Not only Marines 2.0 but the transition to 9th edition and the horrific joke that is CA2020, and the lackluster Imperial Armour book.

Is rightly starting to upset people, they are happy to pump out more and more versions of loyalist marines supliment after supliment with totally unnecessary units, while factions are being left in a bordeline unplayable state.

Either this is wilful negligence or they truely are that clueless about their game changes that they don't realise that the game is an unbalanced broken mess.

Here's hoping 2021 is the year of the Xeno. All of 9th so far, with the exception of Necrons, has been pure marine spam. I'll be okay with that, as long as 2021 sees good news for the underdogs. New editions are always marine spam for the first six months- it's one of the reasons why, even when a new edition is better than the old, I hate new editions. But the fact that they are even spammier than usual this time around might mean that they are trying to clear some space in the release schedule for the multiple waves it would take to get all flavours of Eldar up to speed. Personally, I'd like to see an Eldar minigame akin to Speed Freaks used as a vehicle for a CWE/DE release.

None of that changes the fact that I'm glad Deathwatch are an army and do have a supplement. They are the perfect foil for all the Xenos I hope to see in 2021.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:

Exactly, how does it really work when the idea is that each member chooses their own gear to make them specialised and more elite when primaris all have to take the same gear

Maybe you can actually, oh I dont know, read their Codex or source material and find out? Instead of bitching on the internet that you dont understand them and therefore they have no right to exist.

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction exist hurrr durrr".

Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

As others have said, DW and GK should have stayed small. Something like the old inquisition forces, a mix of specialists, stormtrooper goons, and elite chamber militant guys would have been really nice. I don't especially care how DW play, but as a faction they're rather boring now. Their whole killteam schtick was that they didn't run in whole armies so they brought a handpicked team that's perfect for the job, wasn't it?

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction exist hurrr durrr".

Never mentioned deleting the army

mrFickle wrote:

Never mentioned deleting the army

That's precisely what you teed up. The following are all your own words from this thread:

"Is this army a bad idea?"

"This army doesnt make sense"

"I dont like the idea of this army"

The endgame is abundantly clear.

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Or instead of spending a lot of money on books that I don’t want and sitting on my own and reading them I can use the internet to access a forum and have a conversation with people who want to take part in said conversion. If you don’t like this thread you are welcome to avoid it

Dont start a thread about deleting an army if you're not prepared to have people challenge you on it. If you have questions about Deathwatch as a mechanical faction in 9th edition, there is a thread for that. If you have questions about Deathwatch lore, there is an entire subforum for that. Instead you trundled into the General discussion and tossed out "Why does this faction efxist hurrr durrr".

You're projecting, my dude.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

Right now the amount of utter nonsense GW keep finding a way to shoe horn into the game if your not correct, I'll be shocked.


Wait a minuit, arn't Gravis all the marines exactly what you just described

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

His power level is over 9000!!!!!

On the level though -

From a leyman. whats the difference between a deathwatch marine and a non black (in some case other black) marine apart from shoulder pad?

They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Their whole "shtick" seems to be about breaking the FOC and mixing and matching units from different entries with added rules on top. When dealing with a codex of 98+ entries the balancing just seems like a right nightmare.
Couldn't they just get chapter rules+strats instead, and have their fancy shoulder pads so you can paint them and play them as deathwatch?

Not that this is something thats only specific to DW mind..

But it is what it is. Doesn't really bother me other than the: "design space erosion" and "resource allocation" and "yay! moar marines...".

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

Ah the old "just asking the question" bs. Nice try. Too bad you already tipped your hand at being interested only in gatekeeping what other people can play.

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there. I care that many model lines are neglected while GW makes more power armor.

SecondTime wrote:

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there.

SecondTime wrote:
SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

I'm sorry, what were you lying about this time?

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there.

SecondTime wrote:
SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

I'm sorry, what were you lying about this time?

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb and Mary Sues. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

I'd squat SW in a heartbeat and personally melt down their molds if I could. But I can't. So I don't see why you are so triggered.

SecondTime wrote:

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you're only interested in having fun at the direct expense of others.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you're only interested in having fun at the direct expense of others.

How is it their direct expense? I can assure you I have other interests as well.

SecondTime wrote:

How is it their direct expense?

You openly state you want to destroy other people's armies because they dont meet with your approval, and that you'll go out of your way to prevent them from getting games for no other reason than they dont do what you want them to.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

How is it their direct expense?

You openly state you want to destroy other people's armies because they dont meet with your approval, and that you'll go out of your way to prevent them from getting games for no other reason than they dont do what you want them to.

They can play other people all they want if I'm not in the mood to deal with the nonsense. I have no power to make any of this happen, so why do you even care? Seriously. Obviously, if I'm in a tournament I signed up to play anyone. But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

SecondTime wrote:

They can play other people all they want if I'm not in the mood to deal with the nonsense. I have no power to make any of this happen, so why do you even care?

Because the kind of gatekeeping you seem to get off on is a blight on any hobby, and it has no place in 40k, or on these boards.

SecondTime wrote:
But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

Yes you do, and I genuinely dont care what that opinion is. I care when you do things like openly state you want to delete armies that you dont approve of, and punish other players for not submitting to your personal edicts about how the game should be played.

 Vaktathi wrote:
GW's concept of what constitutes an "army" is rather nebulous. Basically any potential armed force that exists within the 40k universe gets to become an "army". If one were to do a modern combat game in that vein, we'd be seeing drug running Biker gangs lining up for battle against High Altitude Low Open parachuting SAS, or desert militia Technical caravans getting in pitched firefights with the FBI, or games where the Russian 4th Guards Tank Division is its own faction separate from the rest of the Russian Federation Army and is faced against the US Secret Service in urban combat. Those are the sorts of things 40k routinely presents.
d.

I'd play that game

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

I was more thinking about this on the "fluff" based on my very limited reading knowledge.

GK seem more like they should have the extra stats because "super elite even by marine standards".

DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone".
DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

Oh, I see. You are now the morality police. Got it.

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone? I think they'd appreciate the honesty.

"I'm not playing you because I don't feel like dealing with your nonsense faction today."

I've told dozens of SW players that I'd squat their faction to their face and none of them reacted like this. I made it clear it wasn't personal.

Sterling191 wrote:
...

SecondTime wrote:
But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

Yes you do, and I genuinely dont care what that opinion is. I care when you do things like openly state you want to delete armies that you dont approve of, and punish other players for not submitting to your personal edicts about how the game should be played.

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Never mentioned deleting the army

That's precisely what you teed up. The following are all your own words from this thread:

"Is this army a bad idea?"

"This army doesnt make sense"

"I dont like the idea of this army"

The endgame is abundantly clear.

I do not have the ability to stop anyone from playing death watch nor do I wish I did. So you don’t need to try and shut me down.

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

SecondTime wrote:


I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

Thank you for continuing to admit that you're trying to set yourself up as the arbiter of what fun other people are allowed to have, and that you're actively working to prevent them from enjoying their armies.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.

It certainly seems to contribute.

I'm not sure about "it shouldn't exist" - but I think all the Marine+ factions suffer something of an identity crisis and its not obvious where, if anywhere, they are meant to go.

This is perhaps especially acute with Deathwatch, because I don't think they have even tried to "Deathwatchify" the Primaris. Admittedly I'm sick of Marines Marines Marines - so its not like I want a unit of Primaris running around with Xenos Tech or magic custom shotguns etc - but... it would be something.

Hecaton wrote:

It certainly seems to contribute.

Deathwatch have five kits specific to the faction, three of which came from a board game (and two of those are single model characters). Of the remaining two, one is a vehicle, the other a 5-man infantry box. In the intervening time between now and the last updates to Aspect Warriors the entire Drukhari line (excepting specific finecast and resin characters) and the entire Harlequins line have been redone. By any objective measure, other Eldar have done more to preclude resculpts of Aspects than Deathwatch.

 Argive wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

I was more thinking about this on the "fluff" based on my very limited reading knowledge.

GK seem more like they should have the extra stats because "super elite even by marine standards".

DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone".
DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

I thought DW were more like commandos.

Grey knights are more like the men who stared at goats

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

Thank you for continuing to admit that you're trying to set yourself up as the arbiter of what fun other people are allowed to have, and that you're actively working to prevent them from enjoying their armies.

Now you are just repeating yourself. I not going to feel bad for refusing games i dont want to play.

 Argive wrote:

DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

The Deathwatch are not an evolution of the 30k Blackshield concept. They are a coalition of Astartes drawn from every Chapter in the Imperium. Generally, those who go off to join the Deathwatch do so as honored veterans of their Chapter. However, there is a tradition that a warrior can present himself to a Watch Fortress with his Chapter insignia obscured, and if he meets with the approval of the Fortress' leadership he can be accepted into the Deathwatch.

 Galas wrote:
So you are saying that in a hypothetical world were GW released much less marines all of those things would have been done?

I'm gonna disagree. If GW wants to do something, THEY DO IT. Is not like they are limited, they are in a constant state of expansion FFS,

I can't definitively say anything, I cannot predict alternate universes. However, these sorts of scenarios and decisions are the cornerstone of my training, education, and current career (albeit not in tabletop gaming). These are the kinds of decisions I make and report on every day. I don't feel uncomfortable venturing that the lack of maintenance on many lines is absolutely in part from the pressures of such a heavy investment in one range of products absolutely impacting resources available for others. They absolutely are limited, by factors like those I explained above. There's only so much product they can release in a set time span for a product range and not cannibalize sales, overburden consumer interest, or run out of shelf space. Yes they are expanding, but they've also abandoned, discarded, or left many things to decay, and have issues adequately maintaining their existing product lines. Just because a company can do other things doesn't mean they don't have limitations. Re-releasing Blood Bowl isn't competing for the same shelf space as 40k releases. Releasing a major AoS faction book a week after releasing a 40k Codex doesn't crowd sales the way releasing another 40k codex would. That's a big reason to have all those other different games. These are all very real factors at play. GW can't just go out and make 1000 new 40k factions and release them all even if they had the production and development capacity because there isn't the logistical network to support it or the market to absorb it, each of those factions has a cost to deploy and maintain, and GW has repeatedly chosen to allow lines to languish as Marines get multiple updates, refreshes, new factions, and expansions. That doesn't mean that they haven't added other new stuff too, or can't engage in different things, but there very much are bandwidth limits to the number of 40k releases GW can do within the lifespan of an edition with their current business model, and they have chosen to devote almost half that to Marines, and that is a very real limitation for other lines to have to work within.

Oh, yeah. Im going with projection as well.

 Argive wrote:


From a leyman. whats the difference between a deathwatch marine and a non black (in some case other black) marine apart from shoulder pad?

- they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus; there are no "rules" as yet to reflect this, but if you want a Marine force that's going to fight alongside the Inquisition, these guys and Grey Knights are a better fight (fluff wise) than any other Marine factions; if Eisenhorn or Draxus are your preferred Inquisitors, then DW are fluffier than anyone as Draxus and Eisenhorn are Ordo Xenos

- they all come from other chapters first. If you play Crusade, this can be reflected by faction specific Crusade content, provided that supplements actually get their own Crusade content; I'm not 100% sure they do yet, though I have been assuming.

- they have some weapons that others can't take; maxing out these options makes them look and feel different than other marines
- they have specialized ammo for many of their standard weapons, which makes them feel different
- they are the only faction that can use the Corvus Blackstar; it is the only vehicle I'm aware of that accommodates bike units, and it does that because it's a DW vehicle
- units can contain mixes of terminators, assault marines with or without jump packs and bikes (hence the Blackstar taking on bikes). This makes them particularly capable Combat Patrollers because they don't need room in the detachment for multiple units in order to accommodate many different model types

The other thing to keep in mind about DW is that they only got their dex in 8th, so there's potential for the faction to grow. Many will point out that SW, BA and DA have more unique gear, and of course they do- they've been growing for 8 editions. If we were having this conversation 6 months after the release of 3rd, the other snowflakes would not have the number of unique units that they do now, and the only reason we got here is that GW kept their fire lit, just like they should do with DW.

 Argive wrote:
...DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone"...

Depends on the Chapter. Some Chapters see it as their duty to send their best to the Deathwatch regularly, some see it as a dumping ground for problem Marines that don't play nice with others. There's a whole RPG about Deathwatch Marines from widely varying backgrounds coming together into cohesive teams of awesome people if you're interested in more.


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Sterling191 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

I'm attempting to use hyperbole here to draw attention to the fact that "I don't like this faction, maybe it should be nerfed/deleted whether or not anybody else likes it" threads tend to attract scorn despite the fact that that's exactly how GW treats the game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone"...

Depends on the Chapter. Some Chapters see it as their duty to send their best to the Deathwatch regularly, some see it as a dumping ground for problem Marines that don't play nice with others. There's a whole RPG about Deathwatch Marines from widely varying backgrounds coming together into cohesive teams of awesome people if you're interested in more.


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Sterling191 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

I'm attempting to use hyperbole here to draw attention to the fact that "I don't like this faction, maybe it should be nerfed/deleted whether or not anybody else likes it" threads tend to attract scorn despite the fact that that's exactly how GW treats the game.

I think I read some short stories around the PA .

I will undoubtedly get into some BL books about DW. There are a limited number of HH books. But im solidiering through those currently

Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

Yeah, Gravis don't have the same identity that terminators did, they just look like beefy primaris, and now they're IIRC in every slot, certainly enough to make an army of just them now that we've got silly giant-er tactical marines.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

I personally love the models and their fluff, but I can see why both functionally and thematically they're not an army that makes a lot of sense in 40k. It's somewhat contradictory to have personal bodyguards that ensure the safety of the Emperor above all else suddenly be involved in the greater galactic upheaveal involving the Imperium. There's the in fluff excuse that this is taking the mandate of the Emperor's protection to the rest of the Imperium and being proactive, but all previous fluff largely contradicts this, even with recent ones like in the The Beast Arises series, where the Custodians do jack all when the Ork attack moon hovers over Terra. When Goge Vandire screws around, the Custodians don't even just go up and kill the guy when he turns the Imperium upside down, they get the Brides of the Emperor to do the job after presumably giving them an audience with the Emperor.

In terms of in-game mechanics, they're an example of GW's repeated problem of reducing design space by constantly introducing "elite of the elite" factions in the 40k army pool. I would argue part of the reason why marines have gotten so out of hand is partially because with the arms race of adding SM+1 factions like GK, DW and then Custodes after that all contribute to the dilution of SM being the elite faction, which is why they had to start leeching off other design concepts from other factions because their identity was basically copied and spread out across other elite Imperial factions.

 Grimskul wrote:

I personally love the models and their fluff, but I can see why both functionally and thematically they're not an army that makes a lot of sense in 40k. It's somewhat contradictory to have personal bodyguards that ensure the safety of the Emperor above all else suddenly be involved in the greater galactic upheaveal involving the Imperium. There's the in fluff excuse that this is taking the mandate of the Emperor's protection to the rest of the Imperium and being proactive, but all previous fluff largely contradicts this, even with recent ones like in the The Beast Arises series, where the Custodians do jack all when the Ork attack moon hovers over Terra. When Goge Vandire screws around, the Custodians don't even just go up and kill the guy when he turns the Imperium upside down, they get the Brides of the Emperor to do the job after presumably giving them an audience with the Emperor.

In terms of in-game mechanics, they're an example of GW's repeated problem of reducing design space by constantly introducing "elite of the elite" factions in the 40k army pool. I would argue part of the reason why marines have gotten so out of hand is partially because with the arms race of adding SM+1 factions like GK, DW and then Custodes after that all contribute to the dilution of SM being the elite faction, which is why they had to start leeching off other design concepts from other factions because their identity was basically copied and spread out across other elite Imperial factions.

I'm pretty sure the Custodes are now involved with the galactic war effort because Guilliman justifiably forced them into it because they'd spent the last ten thousand years largely doing nothing.

The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
...The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

The problem Custodes (among other people) raise for the design space is that within the Imperium's statlines we need to handle Conscript < Guardsman < Veteran < Stormtrooper < Battle Sister < Celestian < SM Scout < Space Marine < Veteran Marine < Terminator < Gravis Marine < Veteran Gravis Marine < Custodian < Warden < Custodian Terminator < Centurion, which is an absurd stack of things that need to be slightly better than other things and leave effectively no room for fiddling with anything's statlines in any way or you step on someone else's toes/need to handle the knock-on effect of pushing everything else above/below up/down a step.

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


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Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

They've certainly become the army that epitomises having jumped the (frost)sharkwolf. Their heresy-era stuff is much, much more interesting IMO, and it doesn't take much to pull them back to that thematically.

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.
8ft genetic warriors in battle plate who weighs about as much as a car riding a wolf into battle

Werewolf spacemarines as great an idea as Twilight

Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

I agree, faction bashing has basicly become the ONLY thread type we see on dakka dakka these days.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


I'm pretty sure the Custodes are now involved with the galactic war effort because Guilliman justifiably forced them into it because they'd spent the last ten thousand years largely doing nothing.

The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

I think there's an argument to be made that when a major selling point of space marines is how elite and superhuman and best of the best they are, having a faction that's essentially as elite next to SM's as those SM's are next to Guardsmen and sporting statlines approximating those of Daemon Princes of editions past, or where other variants of SM's are often portrayed as "SM's+1", that undercuts the inherent value proposition for SM's, and the increasingly large array of design space marines occupy appears to speak to such pressures on some level. We can also see this with stuff like Obliterators getting larger models and with enhanced stats over previous editions.

BrianDavion wrote:


lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

To be fair, they are silly and ridiculous, GW wrote official codex fluff of Space Wolves firing artillery...by smell, then breaking discipline and running their artillery platforms forward from safe firing positions into the front, just to watch the 'splosions for giggles, and gave us Canis Wolfborne of the Space Wolves, champion of Harald DeathWolf's Wolf Guard, AKA Growlthroat, AKA Fangrider, AKA Lord of the Wolfkin, who rides atop his monstrous ThunderWolf while wielding Wolfclaws and bearing a Wolftooth Necklace and a Wolf tail talisman and who could be accompanies by additional Fenrisian Wolves

That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

Well if you’d read the whole thread it’s not about that. It’s ok to not like certain aspects of the game. But that’s just my opinion, man.

There was someone on here that was saying that they refuse to play certain factions but it’s clear that’s not what the start of this thread was about. Feel free to request this tread is closed down if you think it’s violating the rules of the forum.

Ice_can wrote:



Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.

Proably because the designer of the "sled" had a firmer grasp of the Norse then you do and thus was aware that in Norse mythology Thor had a flying chariot that was pulled by two goats, named Tanngrisnir (teethbearer /snarler)and Tanngnjóstr (teeth grinder)

In fact here's a heroclix mini of thor on his chariot



I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.


So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

More importantly though I would say the way GW has handled the transition from 8th to 9th edition and the absolute joke that was CA2020 after the feet draging on addressing the broken rules that came out in the Marine 2.0 codex and suppliments that followed with New Marine's, more supliments and esentially confirmation that it's march or longer before the first choas or xeno faction codex of next year.

Yes I know Necrons got the second codex of 9th but the widespread belief is while it's a massive improvement than the dumpsterfire of their 8th edition codex, it's not quite on the level of Marines.

Deathguard get a codex in December assuming that still happens with lockdown 2.0 otherwise the schedule is going to slip even more after being in the last(?) Psychic Awakening book, this seems poorly planned.

None of these decisions seem to be driven by who actually needs a codex for game play reasons and instead is focus around shovelling more marines out the door.

Vaktathi wrote:That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

Yeah, this is the biggest sticking point on SW fluff for me.
They try and be too many things (often contradicting) at the same time - especially notable are the "we're frenzied berzerkers who charge in for the thrill of it"/"oh actually, we're cunning thinkers who just act like berzerkers to confuse our enemy" and the "we're the Emprah's Executionerz, MERCILESS!!"/"aw, poor guardsmen! we could never execute you!"

It honestly just sounds like Space Wolves are just written to be "whatever sounds cool and edgy".

But I don't want to squat them. Refusing to play them on principle of existing, and telling people that you want to delete their faction entirely is just childish. They're fine existing. Do they need a whole *Codex* to reflect that? I think not, but that's another topic repeated elsewhere.

BrianDavion wrote:



I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.


So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

In all fairness, just because something is based on or inspired by something else doesn't mean it can't still be flanderized or silly. Tying one end of of a rope around a goat and the other end to one's unmentionables and playing a game of tug-o-war is also straight out of Norse mythology, but I'm not sure there's a good way to translate that into a 40k Lukas the Trickster mini and not have it be ridiculous.

i think the separate book selling, and therefore counting DW as a chapter instead of an institution in lieu heavily attached to the inquisition, is what is kinda the issue?
It's in many ways the same for Asassins and GK


Personally, if one would want to , one could put all the existing lists together with some inquisition specifics and asassins and make a great and interestingly customizable inquisitorial book.

Could even go so far as make mono DW and GK within work with separate boni compared to a "inquisitorial taskforce" which could work diffrently and draw from all 3 -4 sources for units.

however as a concept they are not worse then GK the "other" ultra specific chapter with 1 job.
And no i don't feel neither are a bad idea, however i'd also like it if they were more closely tieable to inquisition.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:



Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.

I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.

So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

I'm not talking about it's origins, I'm talking about the fact to even get on the dang chariot sled whatever the first step is a waist hight of a model in terminator armour, fairly sure jumping around like a gymnast in terminator armour isnt cannon.
His axe is way to short to have a viable reach.

Also why is Logan Grimnar =Thor if any spaceworld should =Thor it would have been Russ.

You also just ignoring the werewolf spacemarines and riding a wolf into battle while probably weight 2-4 times the wolfs own weight?

To be clear I like spacewolfs and don't want them to go anywhere but just have someone with some self restraint put incharge of their line instead of just going with the next rediculous idea.

In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

They kind of a took over the slot for elite marine armies and took over the model and rules support from those armies. And it is impossible to have a different marine army be good and elite, without making custodes look bad at the same time.

Same with knights. they are either and army that skews so hard that without tailoring normal armies can't beat them, or they are over costed because a regular points army beats them no matter what the knight player does, the way we have it right now. The models are fine, but the army functionality doesn't fit the core rules of 9th ed. Which is the reverse of custodes, which right now are ultra efficient, specialy if they go first.


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mrFickle wrote:
In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

From the little expiriance I have, out of all the things I learned form 8th is that it seems like people hate all the armies they do not play, and don't realy care about the play quality of other armies, unless their close friend or family plays the army too. This was a big eye opener for me, because through out most of 8th ed I really believed that people do not think that way, but when the 2.0 marines droped it was all suddenly clear to me.

mrFickle wrote:
In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

No no. Everything in 40k is silly and ridiculous. No. Its everything about them starting with their first abusive codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, id rather let people know up front i hate their army, not THEM. If i have to play against them for some reason. If thats childish, so be it.

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

I'd agree with that. DW are merely excessive in the scheme of things.

SecondTime wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

No no. Everything in 40k is silly and ridiculous. No. Its everything about them starting with their first abusive codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, id rather let people know up front i hate their army, not THEM. If i have to play against them for some reason. If thats childish, so be it.

ifg you hate an army because it was OP at some time or another are their any armies you like? LOL

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

What is it you don’t like about them? Fluff? Rules? Concept? Models?

I said it started with that book, not ended. Probably the single most consistent annoyance with them is having superior rules because "wolf". It was probably 5th ed sw where i started to question why this army even exists. Because the opposite question was even worse: why do other marines exist if wolf is just better all the time.


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 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

Its not bragging. Its just how i handle the situation. Most players never even know. I find another opponent or go home if im not up for it that day.

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

Over the top silly is highly subjective and, in its exaggeration, going to be even more about taste than regular things.

I can without hypocrisy or ahistoricity enjoy 40k's roots in hyperbolic pseudo-punk satire, and its movement to caricature of gothic stuff, and even find modern rationalized XXL marines boring, without liking SW mounts have proportions that look like they come from 1990 action figures even if they too are a product of exaggeration.

mrFickle wrote:
What is it you don’t like about them? Fluff? Rules? Concept? Models?

Everything really.
I found "vikings in spaaace" kind of dull in the 90s, and today the theme just seems to be a mess - as people have said. None of the SW specific models do anything for me.
GK are in a similar boat. I just don't think they should be a faction as they were made.
To my mind a Grey Knight should have remained a "Psychic Custodes" - with a faintly ludicrous borderline great daemon statline which is sort of how they were conceived of before.
Instead they were basically made "Imperial Thousand Sons yo, plus baby carriers". The fluff is weak, the model line dull. It just sucks.

Karol wrote:
They kind of a took over the slot for elite marine armies and took over the model and rules support from those armies. And it is impossible to have a different marine army be good and elite, without making custodes look bad at the same time.

I think that is more of a problem with the marines and their endless loyalist and traitor spawn ballooning out of their niche (such as it once was) and comsuming more and more of the available design space.

If you could go back in time a few editions and describe an army of multi-wound super marines with grav-rhinos you'd be describing custodes. Give it another edition or two and primaris will probably have jetbikes and psychic nulls...

Vikings in space is an excellent identity for a space marine chapter, Wolfy McWolfface Wolfgang von Wolfenstein Canine Lupus Wolf Warriors of Wolfenheim is just comical.

SecondTime wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

Ah the old "just asking the question" bs. Nice try. Too bad you already tipped your hand at being interested only in gatekeeping what other people can play.

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there. I care that many model lines are neglected while GW makes more power armor.

This is no better as a line of attack. DW have an upgrade sprue, a single character blister and a vehicle, all of which have been out for years. You can't hang GW's neglect of other armies on a dizzying production schedule of DW minis! It's an absurd thing to say, I'm afraid.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Vikings in space is an excellent identity for a space marine chapter, Wolfy McWolfface Wolfgang von Wolfenstein Canine Lupus Wolf Warriors of Wolfenheim is just comical.

How else is GW suppose to claim the IP. If they call a squad Svensons Shinbreakers? But I get that it has to be different for people with primary english as their language.

Space Wolves are fine, they just need their theme cleaned up a bit and some of the wolfwolf units moved to Legends.

Deathwatch are also fine in a vacuum. I wish they had more Inquisition units to flesh out that organization more.

The *problem* is that the non-Astartes models that I want have been on back order for quite some time since GW is focusing on this stuff to the detriment of everything else.


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Karol wrote:
From the little expiriance I have, out of all the things I learned form 8th is that it seems like people hate all the armies they do not play, and don't realy care about the play quality of other armies, unless their close friend or family plays the army too. This was a big eye opener for me, because through out most of 8th ed I really believed that people do not think that way, but when the 2.0 marines droped it was all suddenly clear to me.

To be frank, you're wrong. People dislike it when armies receive so much support that it affects supply and support of other armies. There are some people that are as you described, but you seem to be intentionally conflating the two and pretending the former don't exist.

Honestly, I just have this thing of hating 5th edition. I'm not sure if its the people I was playing with - tbf it seemed much closer to the Karol experience than anything I've had in the last 5 years - but most of the armies who were good then just inspire this deep irrational hatred. So when people go "it was the best edition ever, how can you like this stuff" I'm always left wondering if we were just playing a different game.

I guess a similar feeling today is the enmity towards Knights. They are always crap or a hard gatekeeper list, I don't see how its possible to be anything else, and it just sucks. But since I don't want them to be a hard gatekeeper list, I'd prefer them to forever linger on the outskirts of awfulness. Sorry for those who like them.

Tyel wrote:
Honestly, I just have this thing of hating 5th edition. I'm not sure if its the people I was playing with - tbf it seemed much closer to the Karol experience than anything I've had in the last 5 years - but most of the armies who were good then just inspire this deep irrational hatred. So when people go "it was the best edition ever, how can you like this stuff" I'm always left wondering if we were just playing a different game.

I guess a similar feeling today is the enmity towards Knights. They are always crap or a hard gatekeeper list, I don't see how its possible to be anything else, and it just sucks. But since I don't want them to be a hard gatekeeper list, I'd prefer them to forever linger on the outskirts of awfulness. Sorry for those who like them.

I often look back on 5E as probably the best edition overall in terms of being able to pick any faction and at least have something minimally viable competitively and being easy for pickup games, and without as many deep inherent problems between certain classes of models as other editions. However it was absolutely not perfect and was deeply flawed in some core rules respects (hamfisting in silly KP's vs the older VP's that made empty drop pods worth as much as slaying a Land Raider, vehicle secondary weapons turning gun tanks into pillboxes, cheap transports that could ignore 5/6 glancing and 3/6 penetrating results and still do their job, wound allocation gimmickry, etc) with some dramatically absurd codex balance issues and kickstarted a lot of the sillier things we've started to see in 40k over the last decade, while still having a giant stick up its butt allowing FW stuff and having lots of older cool stuff sitting on ice.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Vikings in space is an excellent identity for a space marine chapter, Wolfy McWolfface Wolfgang von Wolfenstein Canine Lupus Wolf Warriors of Wolfenheim is just comical.

Like the Death Guard, I suspect the bright high-contrast studio scheme isn't doing the models any favours either. To my mind, it pulls things too far into the realm of comically overblown.

ETA: The idea of things like the space-longboat lander, for example, are really neat. Less literal-wolf, more "wolves of the sea, er, space" kenning and such.

To be frank, you're wrong. People dislike it when armies receive so much support that it affects supply and support of other armies. There are some people that are as you described, but you seem to be intentionally conflating the two and pretending the former don't exist.

I have yet to see people call out for nerfs of their own army when they are powerful. All 8th I thought that it was my store that was bad, till 2.0 sm codex all those people with good armies suddenly become worse then some 2.0 lists. And all the people that were telling me for 3 years how they don't care about winning, how they don't play 7 flyers or use castellans suddenly were up in arms how GW dares to make IH better then their armies. And when we sliped in to 9th it only continued. Why are all those casual, friendly players that never play to win and only care for fun playing with their friends suddenly worried about marine win rates? Why not do what they were telling marines player when marines were bad, just ask the your casual friends to not play the marine power builds? Isn't painting and the lore more important to the hobby anywhere, why all those people suddenly care that their army is worse then it was in the past? And the real eye opener was the remove option X from marines threads. Marines are suppose to be one list with one codex, because they are all the same thing. But hey their armies are suppose to have pirate lists, CWE lists, harlis , renegade IG etc The only difference between people here is that here people are openly donkey-caves to each other, while in other places just pretend to be all about friendly play, but they want the same power for their lists, then WAAC players. Worse they make people with good rule set feel bad for having them. No one was carrying about the fun IH players before they got their 2.0 rules, but when they did it was automaticly IH player with primaris=WAAC and you tell them no if they want to play.

They feel very super hero movie at this point. They have suffered more than most imperium factions from the new GW design shift that is moving the Imperium away from fascist dictatorship towards something closer to "the good guys," IMO. Space Wolves are interesting as savage space vikings with a history of extremely questionable behavior; they are super boring as Thor and Wolverine in space.

Karol wrote:
I have yet to see people call out for nerfs of their own army when they are powerful.

I have, and actually it was an Iron Hands player a few years ago when they were at the peak of their dominance. Well, "Cry out" is a strong word, but it was like "This stuff is overpowered and should probably be nerfed."

Karol wrote:
Why are all those casual, friendly players that never play to win and only care for fun playing with their friends suddenly worried about marine win rates? Why not do what they were telling marines player when marines were bad, just ask the your casual friends to not play the marine power builds?

Because the power level problem with marines has to do with the basic units, not spamming one particular overtuned piece. Someone making a fluffy, casual list will almost certainly dramatically overpower someone trying to do the same thing with, say, Kabalite Dark Eldar. The balance is screwed up in a way that dramatically impacts even casual play.

Karol wrote:
And the real eye opener was the remove option X from marines threads.

Other factions are losing datasheets (warboss on bike etc), and you're ok with that. Why not Astartes? Astartes *gaining* options while other factions are *losing* them is infuriating for even a casual player.

Someone complained that deathwatch had too much design space. This is pretty silly, as their extremely small model line is pretty old, and they only received one actual rules update in the last.... like 10 years or something.

Someone else said they were boring cos they're too 'mary sue'. I'd say they'd have to get in line behind grey knights and custodes (hell, and ultramarines) before that becomes a factor.

Someone else said they're too powerful. Way too early to judge, but they were a bottom-tier army for the entirety of 8th and this supplement is decent, but I think it'll end up being a solid mid-tier. Which is all we ever wanted.

Someone else said they would have liked for the deathwatch to be folded into the inquisition codex, in order to make a larger inquisition/deathwatch faction possible. I can't say I would have disagreed with that, as inquisitors in a deathwatch force is perfect (if done properly).

Karol wrote:out of all the things I learned form 8th is that it seems like people hate all the armies they do not play

Then you learned badly, is all I can say.

And honestly, given your LGS? Can't say I blame you - but it's not a general thing. You just seem to be playing with people I wouldn't go near.

If I hated all the armies I didn't play, why would I start new ones?

Karol wrote:I have yet to see people call out for nerfs of their own army when they are powerful.

I'm a massive advocate for reducing SM power. I'm a Space Marine player first and foremost.

A game where my faction is winning easily is not a fun game. It's utterly dull.

Why are all those casual, friendly players that never play to win and only care for fun playing with their friends suddenly worried about marine win rates?

I'm not worried about SM win rates, except that they're winning too much.

Why not do what they were telling marines player when marines were bad, just ask the your casual friends to not play the marine power builds? Isn't painting and the lore more important to the hobby anywhere, why all those people suddenly care that their army is worse then it was in the past?

You realise that I've been saying all of this?

But that doesn't fit your skewed narrative.

And the real eye opener was the remove option X from marines threads. Marines are suppose to be one list with one codex, because they are all the same thing.

They are. And I support doing the same even with my own Ultramarines and their "unique" units.

The issue boils down to how widespread the power of Marines are. Power list vs Power list isn't the consideration here.

It's pick-up casual list, maybe with some bite to it, vs your pals similarly non-optimal, but still well-built list. Marines are currently overpowered, full stop. It's not just the tournament lists winning, it's any list you put together, will likely be stronger than your opponents list unless they're looking to play hardball and you're not.

I'm bored of playing my marines. I point at the enemy's models, and they may as well just take them off the table.

However, to actually take part in the point of the thread; no. Deathwatch are cool, part of the lore, and here to stay.

Deathwatch are fine. They’re more factions that are even more unnecessary than them but I don’t want less content and variety in this game system. At worst they’re the victims of GW’s incredibly unfocused design (as are space wolves).

 Vaktathi wrote:
That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

Gonna nod in agreement. I freaking love Space Wolves, and actually don't even dislike the "Wolf Lord Smashwolf Wolfsmash on Wolf with a side of Wolf served on a bed of Wolf and a tall glass of Wolf by Wolf extracted from free-range Wolf." But it can very easily come to the fore in exclusion of everything else they're trying to be because the rest of their identity can be so confused; it's just easier to boil it down to Lightly Wolfed Spring Wolf Wolfed with Wolf Cilantro, and that identity being stronger than everything else is a result of being diluted for broad appeal. In fact, I conjecture that some of this is the result of different writers going "See, they're not just about wolves!" while not fully agreeing on what not-wolf thing they're about.

And because of the "Not just about wolves" problem, even their Wolf Recursion isn't quite focused, either; they get a lot of flak for being furries, but speaking as someone who enjoys their anthropomorphs, I always feel they occupy this weird second-order uncanny valley where they're too animal-obsessed for nonfurries but not furry enough to actually appeal to furry fans, what with their half-assed movie werewolf Wulfen.

Either way, they need to boil down their chapter identity a bit; they'd be better off wearing fewer hats. Hell, I'd argue they need to go with fewer wolves, or go with full-on Power Fursuits, and either would be an improvement.


As for Deathwatch... Eh? Honestly, the release order bothers me more than their mere existence. Niche armies are a thing, but they're a thing you do in a lull season when you've got all the theoretically major players out of the way and I would have released just about anything else first to give some non-LSM armies a foot in the door.

 CEO Kasen wrote:


As for Deathwatch... Eh? Honestly, the release order bothers me more than their mere existence. Niche armies are a thing, but they're a thing you do in a lull season when you've got all the theoretically major players out of the way and I would have released just about anything else first to give some non-LSM armies a foot in the door.

I agree with this in theory, though only if Deathwatch were in a place where they were already playable. They hadn't actually received a proper rules update since... well, 7th edition, pretty much. So I actually think they deserved to be one of the factions to get an early release. Genuinely surprised GW did it though, as there was no model update and they massively nerfed or removed the unique wargear options.

But the next three releases being SW, BA and DA... I'd agree that there's should be a couple more xenos codex releases before these get big updates.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

Gonna nod in agreement. I freaking love Space Wolves, and actually don't even dislike the "Wolf Lord Smashwolf Wolfsmash on Wolf with a side of Wolf served on a bed of Wolf and a tall glass of Wolf by Wolf extracted from free-range Wolf." But it can very easily come to the fore in exclusion of everything else they're trying to be because the rest of their identity can be so confused; it's just easier to boil it down to Lightly Wolfed Spring Wolf Wolfed with Wolf Cilantro, and that identity being stronger than everything else is a result of being diluted for broad appeal. In fact, I conjecture that some of this is the result of different writers going "See, they're not just about wolves!" while not fully agreeing on what not-wolf thing they're about.

And because of the "Not just about wolves" problem, even their Wolf Recursion isn't quite focused, either; they get a lot of flak for being furries, but speaking as someone who enjoys their anthropomorphs, I always feel they occupy this weird second-order uncanny valley where they're too animal-obsessed for nonfurries but not furry enough to actually appeal to furry fans, what with their half-assed movie werewolf Wulfen.

Either way, they need to boil down their chapter identity a bit; they'd be better off wearing fewer hats. Hell, I'd argue they need to go with fewer wolves, or go with full-on Power Fursuits, and either would be an improvement.


As for Deathwatch... Eh? Honestly, the release order bothers me more than their mere existence. Niche armies are a thing, but they're a thing you do in a lull season when you've got all the theoretically major players out of the way and I would have released just about anything else first to give some non-LSM armies a foot in the door.

on the other hand, generally if you get released after those first 2 or 3 codices of an edition you don't seem to get much if anything these days. grey knights and CSMs come to mind, if you want a large model release for an army I'd not want it immediataly as realisticly it'll not happen.

I'm hoping for eldar or Orks to get a spring 2021 release because that'd be about the right time for the next BIG 40k release.

You know what I would really like? The ability to take a single Kill Team without breaking a detachment ala the useless Single Inquisitor rule, except for a unit that is actually worth taking.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You know what I would really like? The ability to take a single Kill Team without breaking a detachment ala the useless Single Inquisitor rule, except for a unit that is actually worth taking.

I like the idea of detachment special rules etc, but yeah it'd be nice if there was some narrative support for limited support from death watch, grey knights etc.

even if just as a special narrative rule

BrianDavion wrote:

on the other hand, generally if you get released after those first 2 or 3 codices of an edition you don't seem to get much if anything these days. grey knights and CSMs come to mind, if you want a large model release for an army I'd not want it immediataly as realisticly it'll not happen.

I'm hoping for eldar or Orks to get a spring 2021 release because that'd be about the right time for the next BIG 40k release.

I'll clarify: When it comes to CSM, I'm not even particularly hungry for models - I just want a goddamn codex that isn't so flatly inferior to the LSM version that they couldn't even be bothered to FAQ in the second wound they gave the Firstborn. I want the game to be in something other than a state so awfully half-born that the game might as well be set to the backdrop of a pregnant woman screaming for the next 12 months on end.

And if two codexes or supplements a month is the limit on the schedule (which is itself really dumb, but its own discussion) then each Marine codex in place of a Xenos, Chaos, or non-LSM Imperium codex extends the screaming by another half a month. I certainly wouldn't put Deathwatch high on the priority list for all that.

This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

on the other hand, generally if you get released after those first 2 or 3 codices of an edition you don't seem to get much if anything these days. grey knights and CSMs come to mind, if you want a large model release for an army I'd not want it immediataly as realisticly it'll not happen.

I'm hoping for eldar or Orks to get a spring 2021 release because that'd be about the right time for the next BIG 40k release.

I'll clarify: When it comes to CSM, I'm not even particularly hungry for models - I just want a goddamn codex that isn't so flatly inferior to the LSM version that they couldn't even be bothered to FAQ in the second wound they gave the Firstborn. I want the game to be in something other than a state so awfully half-born that the game might as well be set to the backdrop of a pregnant woman screaming for the next 12 months on end.

And if two codexes or supplements a month is the limit on the schedule (which is itself really dumb, but its own discussion) then each Marine codex in place of a Xenos, Chaos, or non-LSM Imperium codex extends the screaming by another half a month. I certainly wouldn't put Deathwatch high on the priority list for all that.

Sure but a death watch player might argue otherwise, frankly death watch was the marine supplement MOST needed (note I don't even play death watch) as it's so radically differant from any other marine army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

just about every dakkadakka post can be summed up with "I hate that your army gets something, MY army deserves all the things, and yours should be squatted so it never gets a new thing again"

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

Why?

BrianDavion wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

on the other hand, generally if you get released after those first 2 or 3 codices of an edition you don't seem to get much if anything these days. grey knights and CSMs come to mind, if you want a large model release for an army I'd not want it immediataly as realisticly it'll not happen.

I'm hoping for eldar or Orks to get a spring 2021 release because that'd be about the right time for the next BIG 40k release.

I'll clarify: When it comes to CSM, I'm not even particularly hungry for models - I just want a goddamn codex that isn't so flatly inferior to the LSM version that they couldn't even be bothered to FAQ in the second wound they gave the Firstborn. I want the game to be in something other than a state so awfully half-born that the game might as well be set to the backdrop of a pregnant woman screaming for the next 12 months on end.

And if two codexes or supplements a month is the limit on the schedule (which is itself really dumb, but its own discussion) then each Marine codex in place of a Xenos, Chaos, or non-LSM Imperium codex extends the screaming by another half a month. I certainly wouldn't put Deathwatch high on the priority list for all that.

Sure but a death watch player might argue otherwise, frankly death watch was the marine supplement MOST needed (note I don't even play death watch) as it's so radically differant from any other marine army.

Wouldn't the radically diffrent and tie in with the inquisition and inqusitiorial taskforces lend itself to a propper separate dex? Same with GK.
I think the question asked should be posed in a manner as to WHY death watch were a dex / are now a supplement, and the answer seems to me atleast pretty clear kirbynomics with separete rules selling as a vocal point whilest also in the meantime minimaly invest to grant separate upgrade sprues. A model GW to this day still follows and expands economics of scale benefits for them first and foremost.

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

just about every dakkadakka post can be summed up with "I hate that your army gets something, MY army deserves all the things, and yours should be squatted so it never gets a new thing again"

mrFickle wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

Why?

because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

I think the problem with a lot of SM factions is that they struggle to have their own identity without just being 'Marines +1'. Especially given that 40k is a pretty shallow game, and so there are relatively few ways in which two elite factions can be differentiated mechanically without just making one more elite than the other.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Deathwatch should be removed (though consolidating them with one or two other factions might be nice). Rather, if the game is going to contain a multitude of very similar factions competing for similar rules and design space, then the game really shouldn't be based around the exceptionally shallow core rules that 8th and 9th have introduced.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

And because of the "Not just about wolves" problem, even their Wolf Recursion isn't quite focused, either; they get a lot of flak for being furries, but speaking as someone who enjoys their anthropomorphs, I always feel they occupy this weird second-order uncanny valley where they're too animal-obsessed for nonfurries but not furry enough to actually appeal to furry fans, what with their half-assed movie werewolf Wulfen.

I think this is a very good point.

With regard to Wulfen, it would probably be more interesting (at least visually, if not lore-wise) if they went all-out and made them much closer to werewolves. Even if they still had some normal flesh, they could at least have furred hands (similar to their feet) and more wolf-like heads. I know it's seen as a horror classic, but I've always hated the 'Wolfman' style of werewolf, and seeing it in 40k has not changed that.

They also seem weirdly over-muscled, to the point where they remind me of the ancient and badly-disproportioned Catachan models. To me they look more like werebears or even were-ogryns than werewolves.

BrianDavion wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

Why?

because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

eager to discuss 40k also includes questioning as to why certain factions exist or not anymore.

The issue is that GW with it's recent spam of marines, with a hint of (High quality allbeit pricy) necron , and the removal of 3 non marine rulesets spark the debate once again.
questioning the motifs behind a faction with dex /supplement is in such a situation qualified to be brought up. And should in the community be a discussion that should happen, if only to actually be in a position to demand change, if necessary, from GW. (like the community did with SoB) .

BrianDavion wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
This thread was a bad idea. The fact it’s still open says a lot about Dakka.

Why?

because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

The OP was basically asking if their concept made sense as a coherent distinct faction and how truly different they actually are. In and of itself, that's not faction bashing, that's a perfectly legitimate discussion to be had as long as its respectful, and there's basically only one poster who went through actively bashing DW. If you don't like the topic, you don't have to read the thread, much less repeatedly post in it to feed the discussion.

BrianDavion wrote:


just about every dakkadakka post can be summed up with "I hate that your army gets something, MY army deserves all the things, and yours should be squatted so it never gets a new thing again"

If that's how you see every post here, this explains a lot of posting, but it genuinely isn't true for 99% of posts around here. There are a lot of calls for more spreading of the love, because the game is in an awful balance state, but no one is saying anything on the order of Space Marines should be squatted outright.

mrFickle wrote:
Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

In some ways, yes they’re a bad idea, in some ways no.

They and the Indomitus Grey Shields have the same problem. No Doctrine/Trait that represents/replaces all the doctrine/traits. If they could figure out how to do that in a balanced way it would be great.

The other issue is - Preferred Enemy. Be it The Falen,Tyranic War Vets, DTTFE, etc those abilities are just too hit and miss. It should be some sort of ability that transfers to some extent vs any opponent.

In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

 CEO Kasen wrote:
In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

well now you're just moving goalposts!

 CEO Kasen wrote:
In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

I don't think people bother much with trying to explain anything to the other side anymore, specialy if they are the ones in control. They just do what ever they want and the only interaction some people maybe want is public humiliation of the other side. At least that is the feeling I get from how things work around my part of the world. I mean if people don't let themselfs be convinced or care about what others think, trying to do it is just waste of energy and time. Asserting dominance on the other hand is a thing that feels good.

BrianDavion wrote:
because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions. It's not on everyone else to be happy about it. It's incredibly discouraging to see GW ignore your faction for MOAR ASTARTES time after time, but obviously you don't care about that...

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions. It's not on everyone else to be happy about it. It's incredibly discouraging to see GW ignore your faction for MOAR ASTARTES time after time, but obviously you don't care about that...

It’s not the reason I started the thread but it’s probably a influence in the back of my mind. As someone who played 2nd and skipped 3-7 (but made a bit of effort to keep up with the fluff) seeing armies like DW and GK go from niche ideas that are part of larger army (GK in 2nd not DW) to full blow chapters does feel a bit like a cynical attempt to push more marines that are the same but different to all other marines.

That’s why I find it hard to accept the concept. I know The fluff changes and it’s a lot of effort to keep up with it but for me DW should be more of a dirty dozen than a standing army. But to reiterate I do not want to see any armies deleted from existence.

As GK were raised I also see them as being very special, so special there wouldn’t be enough soldier to fill the ranks of a whole 1000 person chapter. I think in second they were a way of getting some bad ass terminators into a IG army with special skills to face off against chaos. Back when terminators were bad ass.

I think the fluff is an important part of why we choose an army and I am not building a creations of bile army because because I love the rules and think they are going to be hella competitive. If I see an example of GW changing the fluff to facilitate another SM release it puts me off playing SM. But I accept that I haven’t been there for the evolution to unfold.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s not the reason I started the thread but it’s probably a influence in the back of my mind. As someone who played 2nd and skipped 3-7 (but made a bit of effort to keep up with the fluff) seeing armies like DW and GK go from niche ideas that are part of larger army (GK in 2nd not DW) to full blow chapters does feel a bit like a cynical attempt to push more marines that are the same but different to all other marines.

That’s why I find it hard to accept the concept. I know The fluff changes and it’s a lot of effort to keep up with it but for me DW should be more of a dirty dozen than a standing army. But to reiterate I do not want to see any armies deleted from existence.

As GK were raised I also see them as being very special, so special there wouldn’t be enough soldier to fill the ranks of a whole 1000 person chapter. I think in second they were a way of getting some bad ass terminators into a IG army with special skills to face off against chaos. Back when terminators were bad ass.

I think the fluff is an important part of why we choose an army and I am not building a creations of bile army because because I love the rules and think they are going to be hella competitive. If I see an example of GW changing the fluff to facilitate another SM release it puts me off playing SM. But I accept that I haven’t been there for the evolution to unfold.

Fundamentally, I'm not averse to the idea of Deathwatch - in fact, I like how their preferred enemy is various non-humans, which helps to take the focus away from "Imperium vs. Chaos." Their codex, however, should have highlighted the fact that they work with the Inquisition. Same thing with Grey Knights - but the problem is that loyalist Astartes are basically a cancer on this game, and are squeezing out other interesting parts of the setting for their own benefit.

Those are very big words, specialy considering that people who actualy play those armies don't think of their own choice as cancer. I don't think that a BA or SW player thinks that getting a codex for a new edition somehow makes the game worse.

But you know there is always the option sm were given, when their armies were bad. You can quit, or concentrate on painitng.

Karol wrote:
Those are very big words, specialy considering that people who actualy play those armies don't think of their own choice as cancer. I don't think that a BA or SW player thinks that getting a codex for a new edition somehow makes the game worse.

Compared to, say, 3e, the amount of rules and modeling effort spent on Astartes compared to other factions has greatly increased, to the detriment of the whole. The cancer analogy is extremely apt. Astartes players need to understand this.

Karol wrote:
But you know there is always the option sm were given, when their armies were bad. You can quit, or concentrate on painitng.

The problem is that if less Astartes minis sell, GW thinks "gak, we better give them better rules or models!" If more Astartes minis sell, GW thinks "Great, let's make more Astartes minis to sell to those people who like them!"

If less of a given Xenos mini line sells, GW thinks "Better withdraw support for this faction, people don't like them." If more sell, GW thinks "Great! That's enough."

Your implication that non-Astartes players have the same option is just a lie; moreover, Astartes player typically moved their Blood Angels over to counts-as Space Wolves or whatever to remain competitive.

To sum up, you're wrong, I'm right to use the language I'm using.

I don’t think that the number of loyalist marines is necessarily the problem, the codex & supplement setup can be seen as basically one army with options. But only if other armies were given the same treatment. An easy win for GW would have been to have CSM codex with supplements.

All other armies have the fluff that states there is species x with sub faction 1,2&3 which could be exploited to give people more options and turn their attention to non human armies.

I also agree that the number of SM products is not just due to their success, I think their success is also due t the saturation of the game with SM products and options. There is an immersive aspect to a game like 40K and the more immersive options an army has the better it will do as long as the story is good

They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. Please leave the disparaging comments for elsewhere

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. I know the sisters players will complain because that's what they're known for, but they already shared plenty of page space with the Inquisition before, so I don't think some Marine entries are gonna hurt you.

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Well, I think there should be the *option* to restrict yourself to just Sororitas, GK's, or Deathwatch... but they shouldn't feel compelled to fill an entire codex of nothing *but* that, we should see Inquisition units, Stormtroopers, etc...

Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (Ask the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey, 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago!

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special circumstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

And to be fair the imperium isn't the only bunch that does stupid things for reasons that make sense in an insane universe. Remember snagrod the arch arsonist and thrugg bullneck? Thrugg was snagrod's best general, basically, so he sent him and hs forces on a suicide attack on rynn's world to either kill thrugg or weaken his forces so thrugg couldn't overthrow snagrod. And the eldar don't get a pass either. "We're a dying race dwindling away to extinction, so every time we have to fight a major action we sacrifice a perfect healthy member of our shrinking race to wake up our god."

At times I think the kroot are the onloy race in 40k with their heads screwed on right.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (And the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago !

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special ciurcunstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

SecondTime wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (And the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago !

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special ciurcunstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

But they're not, and they never will be.

I get that, but I'm allowed to disagree with GW's implementation even if I can't influence it. Just like I can dislike the power armor saturation and not be able to influence it.

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. I know the sisters players will complain because that's what they're known for, but they already shared plenty of page space with the Inquisition before, so I don't think some Marine entries are gonna hurt you.

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Well, I think there should be the *option* to restrict yourself to just Sororitas, GK's, or Deathwatch... but they shouldn't feel compelled to fill an entire codex of nothing *but* that, we should see Inquisition units, Stormtroopers, etc...

Well yeah there ARE their own HQ options. You were able to go pure GK and Sisters with the -hunters codices and there was no issue.

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else.

Hecaton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else, though.

Okay, bolt them on to inquisition, then. Anything to chop down the power armor codex count at this point.

How do you bolt them to the inquisition? I could see an inquisiutor saying "My research has lead me to see this operation must be successful, but the guard forces assigned to it are not assured victory. I am assigning your killteam to aid them and ensure their success. Oh, and kill them afterwards in case any of them got tainted, would you kindly?"

It could go the opposite way or course, a unit of guard are assigned to help a killteam by creating a diversion and providing cannon fodder/monsterbait for the killteam to operate behind.

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition? I could see an inquisiutor saying "My research has lead me to see this operation must be successful, but the guard forces assigned to it are not assured victory. I am assigning your killteam to aid them and ensure their success. Oh, and kill them afterwards in case any of them got tainted, would you kindly?"

It could go the opposite way or course, a unit of guard are assigned to help a killteam by creating a diversion and providing cannon fodder/monsterbait for the killteam to operate behind.

The same way GW does anything. Just do it.

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition?...

You bring back the Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus Codexes. Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, flexible Henchmen warbands, and the relevant Order Militant.

TBH I think they missed a trick by not giving all <Deathwatch> models the <Ordo Xenos> keyword as well. Then you could take an Inquisitor with some henchmen in the same detachment. Sure you’d lose doctrines (and get the OX chapter tactic rather than the DW one) - but at least you’d be able to do it without forking out 3CP for a Vanguard.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition?...

You bring back the Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus Codexes. Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, flexible Henchmen warbands, and the relevant Order Militant.

I think you could put them all into one (big) codex. GW might want to split them up for money reasons.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
TBH I think they missed a trick by not giving all <Deathwatch> models the <Ordo Xenos> keyword as well. Then you could take an Inquisitor with some henchmen in the same detachment. Sure you’d lose doctrines (and get the OX chapter tactic rather than the DW one) - but at least you’d be able to do it without forking out 3CP for a Vanguard.

Because GW retconned the DW/Ordo Xenos connection in order to make DW their own army.
It's stupid and makes no sense, but it is what it is.

SecondTime wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else, though.

Okay, bolt them on to inquisition, then. Anything to chop down the power armor codex count at this point.

Scribbling a different name on the cover doesn't actually drop the codex count, though.

Hecaton wrote:


Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions.

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Nope, I don’t expect them to do anything but continue whining as an entire Product line is replaced without interrupting current status. I don’t expect them to differentiate between these Marines and Those Marines - be it a specific Chapter, or the Primaris vs Old Marine product lines while still demanding we separate elder from Dark Eldar, orks from Nids, and so on.

How many of those releases were old marines? And if you don’t count some of the limited ones like the anniversary Terminator Chaplain? How many of these new releases replace and old marine unit that is now even less likeLy to get a new release?

Was the retool and rerelease of Sisters “justified”? Will a retool and rerelease of eldar be “justified? Marines didnt “need” a retool because their models are Old, but because players already had all they needed. But they still needed a retool. I’ve got 2 and a half companies or so after 20 years. I’m in no hurry to buy another tactical squad. But I’m buying Intercessors, infiltrators and so on. Both because I think my tacticals won’t have a datasheet (relatively) soon, and because I like to take a little of everything.

I think deathwatch are fine atm. They arent actually deathwatch from the lore, but what 40k army is?

Lore deathwatch killteams would be something like this:

Deathwatch kill team-
consists of 4 deathwatch veterans and 1 veteran seargent. All models are armed with Deathwatch boltguns (which use SIA), frag and krak grenades, and a deathwatch bolt pistol.
Each member of a deathwatch killteam can pick a different primoginator chapter and gain the corresponding chapter traits.
Each member can take a jumppack for 5pts or a bike for 10 points.
The seargent can take terminator armor for 10 pts (this also swaps his bolter and bolt pistol out for a storm bolter and power sword).
Each member can swap out their bolter for a choice on the CCW chart.


Not gonna write out the charts but this is what people wanted from their kill teams.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

BrianDavion wrote:

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

Ain't saying Marine players are whiners as a whole, just that that post made it come across that way. "Entitled" is not a word I use lightly, because I hate it, given its tendency to easily create emotional reactions with uses often at best loosely related to its definition, but I think it speaks to the perception that "It makes GW more money, therefore Marines should have the lion's share of the attention" generates.

If what we have right now is justified as the result of basic economics, then it will be far from the first thing that basic economics has ruined, because it means that economics has completely overshadowed creating a game that's actually fun for all its players. If the financial imbalance involved in supporting other armies is this disparate, 40K is not on a good path.

Look, Marines getting the most attention is fine. They've always gotten a bit more for what are basically understandable, and indeed economic, reasons. But for the past several months, they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future, have done so from a position of strength going into 9th where they've been for nearly a year and a half - and GW can't even be bothered to FAQ other factions' weapons and stats in line properly so that we have anything resembling crossfaction balance. Meanwhile, they somehow find the effort for entire Indexes for Marine subfactions that were only going to be needed for a month or two while others have to wait a depressingly indeterminate length of time while their CSM have nonsensically fewer wounds than the Loyalists, their Fusion guns are weaker, or their Flamer-equivalents only fire 8".

It's really disheartening to feel like a second-class citizen in your own entertainment. And any defense of this state of affairs isn't going unchallenged - which will spawn more of this, if this is what you don't want to see. "Shut up and stop whining about it" will just result in harder arguing and more of these complaints.

BrianDavion wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

And if other factions got more support and resource they would be more popular, and be more profitable.. GW more more money.. see..? Economics bruh...

This circular argument has been talked to death and is as fresh as my 2 day old socks...

Breton wrote:
In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Nah, it's different, because Astartes only sell more because they're promoted more. Grey Knights don't fly off the shelves like in 5th. The situation is one that GW's engineered, not the native desire of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.

And not supporting specialist games was basic economics... until it turned out that *that* was a lie.

Astartes only sell well because they're portrayed so well in the fluff and given constant releases. If any other faction was given that, they'd sell well too. Grey Knights don't sell like they did in 5th; there's a reason for that.

I'd like to preface this with the statement that I don't want factions that people like to be removed from the game, because I'm a big fan of Custodes which a lot of people don't like but I think are really cool.

The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. Deathwatch are anti-xenos Space Marines, just as Grey Knights are anti-demon Space Marines which can make it awkward to design them well because of that. If Deathwatch are too good at their anti-faction role that invalidates a lot of armies if Deathwatch are popular. Likewise, Grey Knights have the potential to invalidate Daemons as an army. Back when I first encountered Deathwatch and Grey Knights (4th edition), Deathwatch was a kill-team you could take in another army and Grey Knights could be fielded as a full army or as an allied contingent. Also at this time Daemons were a subset of units in the Chaos codex, not a stand alone faction. Its one thing to have the small element of an anti-faction unit that gets added to a generalist army and quite something else to have an entire faction that specializes in killing a specific faction or group of factions in the game. Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea. However, now that those specific factions exist, I think it is a much worse idea to eliminate those factions after people have spent a lot of time and money assembling and painting their armies.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future.

Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


And not supporting specialist games was basic economics... until it turned out that *that* was a lie.

Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

 Argive wrote:


And if other factions got more support and resource they would be more popular, and be more profitable.. GW more more money.. see..? Economics bruh...

This circular argument has been talked to death and is as fresh as my 2 day old socks...

That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:


That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

Blood Bowl is in the middle of ANOTHER extensive rework. Necromunda AFTER YEARS OF LAYING FALLOW. The point is they constantly invest A LITTLE money into it, and then let it die off after they've earned what they can out of it. Warhammer Quest could be the longest continually running specialist game they've ever put out.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.

Earlier management teams weren't against video games, they were against turning their tabletop game into a video game. They loved getting next to, but not quite doing so. None of those games are tabletop 40K or Fantasy/AoS. None of those games will ever be. Unless they get End Timed like Fantasy - but even Total War: Warhammer isn't Fantasy. Dawn of War 2 isn't 40K. They're just designed to sell 40K and Fantasy.

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Breton wrote:
Let me know when the Specialist Games start lasting longer to prove it. How many times HAS Bloodbowl relaunched so far anyway? Adeptus Titanicus/Epic 40K, Epic/etc? Anyone seen a good game of Battlefleet Gothic recently?

Blood Bowl is in the middle of an extensive rework. Necromunda got rereleased and redone after years of lying fallow. The point is, they're investing money into it.

They're also allowing more video games to be made with their IP, which is a change that makes them money - but earlier management teams were against it. GW management has (or maybe has had) an *irrational* like for Astartes. It's not a matter of expediency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:


That is a big if, considering how GW does their updates. GW can't risk making a necron or SoB faction models update, and then the army not selling. Marines always sells. GW could of course test stuff, by just updating the rules and checking if specific already existing models start selling a lot better, but that doesn't seem to be their philosophy in general. They maybe tried to do it with Inari, and it was sales driving thing for sure. But this is no way a general rules how they act, there are whole plastic lines of models, that have or had bad rules and GW just leaves them like that for years.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

If I were an even slightly bigger prick, "Kasen is right in every way that matters" would be my new forum sig.

Breton wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

...Uh, what? Is this a rebuttal? I may be prematurely assuming it is because you do tend to be... unsympathetic to vigorous concerns about Marines, shall we say? But as a rebuttal it makes no sense.

I have zero idea what Sisters have to do with this or heard anything about a potential Eldar retool. I'm not sure how the Marine releases being Primaris in any way invalidates what I just said, especially since nonPrimaris still got the wound update. And where the balls did Hecaton say, imply, insinuate, blog, tweet, or send in Morse code using only his asscheeks the statement that "Marine players aren't customers?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

You aren't wrong that marines sell, therefore produce Marines is clearly GW's logic. I don't think anyone is arguing against the idea that a big company will do this. What I believe Hecaton is arguing that this could be corrected with a little marketing of some other factions, and what I am arguing is:

1) That certain efforts on GWs part to balance the game could be made at trivial levels of expense via a few simple rules updates, and
2) Massively Overprioritizing Marines to the extent that 1) appears to be too difficult to do is a recipe for a terrible game.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
If I were an even slightly bigger prick, "Kasen is right in every way that matters" would be my new forum sig.

Breton wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Breton wrote:


Except they aren't. Primaris marines are. Notice you didn't go anywhere near my questions about Sisters getting a retool, or a potential retool for Eldar. None of these new Kits are "Marines" they're all Primaris Marines They're doing to Marines what they JUST did to Sisters - with the added IP/Proxy model/Tournament/etc expectations to generate sales - just in a way that doesn't take Marines off the shelf - because they can't afford to take Marines off the shelf.

To the customer, the effect is the same. Kasen is right in every way that matters.

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

...Uh, what? Is this a rebuttal?

No it's apparently a more subtle commentary on dehumanizing people who disagree with you than I thought it ever could be. Multiple marine players have pointed out the lumping of Marines together for complaints about their release schedule isn't as accurate as the people making them should be. A new Lysander sculpt is not a Marine release, it's an Imperial Fists release. The other Marine chapters aren't generally using it. The wave of Primaris Releases aren't "new" Marine releases, they're "replacement" Marine releases as we watch our armies enter planned obsolescence. And you just said they're all "not customers".

I may be prematurely assuming it is because you do tend to be... unsympathetic to vigorous concerns about Marines, shall we say? But as a rebuttal it makes no sense.

I have zero idea what Sisters have to do with this or heard anything about a potential Eldar retool. I'm not sure how the Marine releases being Primaris in any way invalidates what I just said, especially since nonPrimaris still got the wound update. And where the balls did Hecaton say, imply, insinuate, blog, tweet, or send in Morse code using only his asscheeks the statement that "Marine players aren't customers?"

Color me shocked the people complaining about a Marine Release pace during a retool don't want to compare it to any other army getting a deep retooling.

Lol breton, then why are you defending this when you yourself, state that it is planned obsolesence and at this stage frankly milking the cow dry.
And Frankly marine players at this point should feel pretty pissed because as far as i remember they allreay got an updated line just before primaris... and now their updated investment can't even seemingly support itself through what 4 years? (but then again it's also the population that get's to buy 3 books now per edition without even going into CA or the rulesbook soo rip.)

Why are you lot buying that rubish then, btw?

I allready cut out the gw plastic and FW resin for the most part.

Breton wrote:
No it's apparently a more subtle commentary on dehumanizing people who disagree with you than I thought it ever could be. Multiple marine players have pointed out the lumping of Marines together for complaints about their release schedule isn't as accurate as the people making them should be. A new Lysander sculpt is not a Marine release, it's an Imperial Fists release. The other Marine chapters aren't generally using it. The wave of Primaris Releases aren't "new" Marine releases, they're "replacement" Marine releases as we watch our armies enter planned obsolescence. And you just said they're all "not customers".

Wait, what? Marine players are not customers? Marine players are definitely customers. Where the hell did anyone say this in this thread? I certainly didn't. Hecaton didn't say so to my knowledge. I'm genuinely lost at this point.

Color me shocked the people complaining about a Marine Release pace during a retool don't want to compare it to any other army getting a deep retooling.

What? I... What?! No, cut the 'color me shocked' sarcasm, seriously, what are you even talking about? What retooling? What is this post even about?

Certain units/characters being usable by only certain SM chapters is the exact same problem as having only 1 xenos faction getting new stuff, it doesn't affect the other xenos factions in any way.

I'm fine that Space marines get more stuff than the other faction, they're the golden boys, the literal faceboys of GW, and it's good that way. But sometime (like in the past months) they just give too much. I think it's normal that chaos/xenos factions feel left behind and frustrated.

I even feel this abondance of SM things start to get kinda anti-consummer for both SM and xeno players alike. Some xeno factions are dying to see some new stuffs/recasts or even new better rules, while the SM have to deal with having to buy several expensive rulebooks and deal with a lot of redundant units that will confuse new players.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol breton, then why are you defending this when you yourself, state that it is planned obsolesence and at this stage frankly milking the cow dry.

Pointing out reality isn't "defending this" nor is the cow dry, they just molded a new cow.

And Frankly marine players at this point should feel pretty pissed because as far as i remember they allreay got an updated line just before primaris...

Of which I think I bought none of. I already had it or didn't want it.

and now their updated investment can't even seemingly support itself through what 4 years? (but then again it's also the population that get's to buy 3 books now per edition without even going into CA or the rulesbook soo rip.)

Why are you lot buying that rubish then, btw?

I still want to play? I got 20 years out of most of my models and 20 years for $20 isn't that bad? I make jokes about the people who bought the LOW Land Raider to see it move to Legends in less than one edition?

I allready cut out the gw plastic and FW resin for the most part.

Mr Raptor wrote:
Certain units/characters being usable by only certain SM chapters is the exact same problem as having only 1 xenos faction getting new stuff, it doesn't affect the other xenos factions in any way.

I'm fine that Space marines get more stuff than the other faction, they're the golden boys, the literal faceboys of GW, and it's good that way. But sometime (like in the past months) they just give too much. I think it's normal that chaos/xenos factions feel left behind and frustrated.

I even feel this abondance of SM things start to get kinda anti-consummer for both SM and xeno players alike. Some xeno factions are dying to see some new stuffs/recasts or even new better rules, while the SM have to deal with having to buy several expensive rulebooks and deal with a lot of redundant units that will confuse new players.

I won't deny it feels like we've had back to back large scale marine releases. hopefully 2021 will be someone else's time and any marine releases will be minimal and restricted to the odd event mini and maybe a black templars supplement and special character max.

Look, Marines getting the most attention is fine. They've always gotten a bit more for what are basically understandable, and indeed economic, reasons. But for the past several months, they've gotten so much of it, are getting most of the immediate attention in the near future, have done so from a position of strength going into 9th where they've been for nearly a year and a half - and GW can't even be bothered to FAQ other factions' weapons and stats in line properly so that we have anything resembling crossfaction balance. Meanwhile, they somehow find the effort for entire Indexes for Marine subfactions that were only going to be needed for a month or two while others have to wait a depressingly indeterminate length of time while their CSM have nonsensically fewer wounds than the Loyalists, their Fusion guns are weaker, or their Flamer-equivalents only fire 8".

A large part of community doesn't even get to enjoy the domination period of marines. By the time GW send GK codexs to my country, it was the 2 week of february and in the 3ed the whole country shut down. The stores opened durning summer, because the ruling party wanted elections before the second pandemic wave, so people got to play a bit, and now everyone is going in to being shut again. Telling people that didn't get to play with the good marine rules, while they very much got to enjoy when they were bad is not going to garner much understanding from people.

Maybe GW should go through the effort to make non-Astartes factions popular through their game rules and Black Library materials.

Maybe is not something investors like to hear. What investors like to hear is, we are building our phones and tablets in a such a way that they break down on themselfs after 2 years and new phones don't fit old chargers, and we make it illegal for people to fix their stuff in not licensed stores, even if we opened 6 stores in a 30 milion country. Life is about minimum effort for maximum games, those that try to do extra get what we call the volenteer treatment.

Have you guys ever invested in a company?
I know its a meme of "haha, evil investors will pull the plug if the share price dips a bit, sack all the management, flog the remaining plastic to Hasbro" - but that very rarely happens, and certainly doesn't happen to a company like GW where "investor" influence by all seeming accounts has been minimal forever.

Most investors will be institutions who have almost no idea what GW are doing beyond a casual "profits going up, good, stay in". They don't care if GW print marines, tau or tangerines.

This idea "Marines sell" is purely a function of "its new" (which sells) and "its good" (which sells). We have this every time. "Oh no one wants Sisters, its much too big of a risk."

*GW makes plastic Sisters with rules comfortably putting them in the top half of factions and they sell out almost everywhere.*

"Its a fluke."

*GW makes new Necrons. They seem to be in a similar boat and lo, are sold out almost everywhere (could be Covid related, but still).*

"But but but muh Marines need new stuff all the time otherwise they'll get cold".

So I haven't heard a single good argument as to why DW are a bad idea in the seven pages of this thread. Here's the best of the worst arguments:

1) "It's not fluffy. DW deploy in killteams not armies." – Not true. Up to 30 marines deployed is pretty standard when meeting a big threat, and that's about right for a 2k game. Entire fortresses have been deployed before too. And let's not forget that there is a skew between fluff and crunch regarding SMs more generally. if DW are breaking fluff by deploying in numbers over 10, then so are SM armies.

2) "They should be wrapped up with Inquisition" – Well yes, or vice versa more likely. And neither would represent DW being a bad idea, just that it would be very cool to see Ordo Xenos represented as interacting with DW on the table.

3) "All the DW models are draining the life from every other faction!!" – An absurd suggestion. They have three boxes in total: Watchmaster blister, Killteam box and Corvus. That's it. If you're complaining that SM as a whole are horribly over-represented in the release schedule you'll get no argument out of me. But then your problem is with SM as a whole, not with DW.

4) "I don't like them though! They smell!" – No you smell, nyah nyah.

That's it. Can we close the thread now?

 grouchoben wrote:
So I haven't heard a single good argument as to why DW are a bad idea in the seven pages of this thread. Here's the best of the worst arguments:

1) "It's not fluffy. DW deploy in killteams not armies." – Not true. Up to 30 marines deployed is pretty standard when meeting a big threat, and that's about right for a 2k game. Entire fortresses have been deployed before too. And let's not forget that there is a skew between fluff and crunch regarding SMs more generally. if DW are breaking fluff by deploying in numbers over 10, then so are SM armies.

2) "They should be wrapped up with Inquisition" – Well yes, or vice versa more likely. And neither would represent DW being a bad idea, just that it would be very cool to see Ordo Xenos represented as interacting with DW on the table.

3) "All the DW models are draining the life from every other faction!!" – An absurd suggestion. They have three boxes in total: Watchmaster blister, Killteam box and Corvus. That's it. If you're complaining that SM as a whole are horribly over-represented in the release schedule you'll get no argument out of me. But then your problem is with SM as a whole, not with DW.

4) "I don't like them though! They smell!" – No you smell, nyah nyah.

That's it. Can we close the thread now?

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

Playing a Kill Team 3.0 game with an inquisitor, a couple their followers, and a band of DW or GKs would be a heck of a lot of fun.

A better question for a new thread, is "How can DW be better represented, and their customizability more impactful and fun, in regular 40k?"

2. Yeah. Re-merging inquisition with DW, GK, and Sisters would be great.

Blastaar wrote:

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

This is incalculably wrong. Mixed units are at the heart of how Deathwatch play "standard" scale 40k.

Sterling191 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

1. I think the real issue with DW in "normal" 40k, is that deploying in units works against DW's high customizability. A squad with a termie, biker, jump pack marine and whatever else is cool, but doesn't function well on the table.

This is incalculably wrong. Mixed units are at the heart of how Deathwatch play "standard" scale 40k.

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

Blastaar wrote:

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

They most certainly do. There's an entire tactica thread that can show you how.

Blastaar wrote:

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

I quite literally just did. Mixed squads allow Deathwatch armies to function in ways their individual constituent components wouldnt be able to. If you want to know more, I highly recommend you 1) read over their rules and/or 2) try asking specific questions in the actual Deathwatch thread.

Sterling191 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

Really? Bikes, termies, and regular marines function well in the same unit?

They most certainly do. There's an entire tactica thread that can show you how.

Blastaar wrote:

You'd don't have to tell me how wrong I am, you can just explain my error.

I quite literally just did. Mixed squads allow Deathwatch armies to function in ways their individual constituent components wouldnt be able to. If you want to know more, I highly recommend you 1) read over their rules and/or 2) try asking specific questions in the actual Deathwatch thread.

I was politely telling you to stop being condescending, and you had to go and do it again.

ihockert wrote:
The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. [...] Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea.

Okay, what if instead of special anti-army rules, they just designed the armies to be strong against what their preferred enemies do?

Hate marines? Have efficient stats for taking out multiwound infantry. Hate demons? Have stats and rules that are good at dealing with charges and invulnerable saves. A strong specialization against a broad type of play that includes the preferred enemy army should allow a reasonable flavor without pigeonholing the army.

Blastaar wrote:

I was politely telling you to stop being condescending, and you had to go and do it again.

That tends to happen when people make declarative statements with no basis in reality about armies that I play, then act confused when they get called out on it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

ihockert wrote:
The major potential issue I see for Deathwatch and also Grey Knights and to a lesser extent Sisters of Silence is that they are anti-factions/units. [...] Liekwise, it can be difficult for players of the anti-factions if their overspecialization against specific enemies makes them weak against everything else.

I generally think that in a miniatures game where people spend a lot of time and money buying, building, and painting their army that having armies that are essentially anti-factions is a bad idea.

Okay, what if instead of special anti-army rules, they just designed the armies to be strong against what their preferred enemies do?

Hate marines? Have efficient stats for taking out multiwound infantry. Hate demons? Have stats and rules that are good at dealing with charges and invulnerable saves. A strong specialization against a broad type of play that includes the preferred enemy army should allow a reasonable flavor without pigeonholing the army.

The Deathwatch anti-Xenos hate is really, really mild. Almost entirely flavor. Reroll 1's on melee attacks is really niche on an army with limited melee advantages otherwise, and the specifically targeted strats are both expensive and limited in their power. It's probably the best way to implement rules like that. Not nothing, but not the advantages you're designing your list around.

Breton wrote:

Who knew Marine Players aren't customers?

I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite - I said that models are being released (Primaris) that Marine players are buying. But the important thing is that they're being made in unheard-of quantities, and the Loyalist Astartes factions are getting orders of magnitude more support than other factions.

Next time, take a second read. It's clear your reading comprehension is a bit spotty.

Breton wrote:
Blood Bowl is in the middle of ANOTHER extensive rework. Necromunda AFTER YEARS OF LAYING FALLOW. The point is they constantly invest A LITTLE money into it, and then let it die off after they've earned what they can out of it. Warhammer Quest could be the longest continually running specialist game they've ever put out.

They're investing substantially more right now than they have in the past.

Breton wrote:
Earlier management teams weren't against video games, they were against turning their tabletop game into a video game. They loved getting next to, but not quite doing so. None of those games are tabletop 40K or Fantasy/AoS. None of those games will ever be. Unless they get End Timed like Fantasy - but even Total War: Warhammer isn't Fantasy. Dawn of War 2 isn't 40K. They're just designed to sell 40K and Fantasy.

You're clearly not following.

Anyway, the point is that GW is not the be-all-end-all of omniscient business knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, what if GW launches a massive line of I dunno, we'll say eldar, a massive novel line, so big that's literally all they produce in an entire year, let's say they bet the farm on your idea that another faction could be propelled to marine heights... well.. what if they're wrong and it fails?

So maybe don't focus on one faction, to the exclusion of all others, for a year. It's not rocket surgery.

BrianDavion wrote:
Marines are an empiricly proven seller. GW can churn a bunch out and KNOWS they'll sell them all. other armies are likely viewed as a bit of a riskier proposition.

They're viewed that way because they're given outsize support, and the fluff is warped to make them seem heroic.

BrianDavion wrote:
Remember GW's a publicly traded company they have stockholders to keep happy. and many of these people likely know jack all about the game (in their mind they've proably invested in a toy company)
these guys just look at their spreadsheets and say "space marines sell lots, we need space marine releases this year!"
si Marines are produced to appease the stockholders and give GW leave to do other things that they WANT to do, like Plastic sisters, a necron refresh, specialist games etc.

Publicly traded companies are not omniscient with respect to what makes them money. GW has so much market capture that they could make bad business decisions for decades and remain solvent within their niche. I'm saying that they can make more money by cultivating an ensemble cast of interesting factions, rather than myopically focusing on loyalist Astartes like they do. As an example, I recently tried to buy a selection of ork minis recently for a project - but despite being in production, they weren't available on GW's site or from retailers who stock GW. I ended up finding them on ebay via the secondary market. That's a lost sale there. And you could say "But exclusively focusing on Primaris makes them more money." Here's what I guarantee - their analytics aren't that good. They don't know how much money they *aren't* making. There are people in that company who are *unreasonably* focused on Astartes, who would rather make five dollars selling Astartes than ten dollars selling a variety of factions (possibly for branding/IP reasons). So I think they should do better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Have you guys ever invested in a company?
I know its a meme of "haha, evil investors will pull the plug if the share price dips a bit, sack all the management, flog the remaining plastic to Hasbro" - but that very rarely happens, and certainly doesn't happen to a company like GW where "investor" influence by all seeming accounts has been minimal forever.

Most investors will be institutions who have almost no idea what GW are doing beyond a casual "profits going up, good, stay in". They don't care if GW print marines, tau or tangerines.

This idea "Marines sell" is purely a function of "its new" (which sells) and "its good" (which sells). We have this every time. "Oh no one wants Sisters, its much too big of a risk."

*GW makes plastic Sisters with rules comfortably putting them in the top half of factions and they sell out almost everywhere.*

"Its a fluke."

*GW makes new Necrons. They seem to be in a similar boat and lo, are sold out almost everywhere (could be Covid related, but still).*

"But but but muh Marines need new stuff all the time otherwise they'll get cold".

Pretty much this. There's some executive over there who is getting annoyed any time someone suggests supporting non-Astartes factions, and even more annoyed when they sell.

I agree with the OP here. Deathwatch have pretty much become a generic chapter flavour that is just Primaris in black.

The faction should have been Ordo Xenos complete with stormtrooper/scion options, good inquisitor options as well as kill teams. The whole unique schtick should have been a book that combined IG and space marine elements with its own twist.

They also need the kits/encouragement to push what the real joy in Deathwatch is, a custom army of 'your dudes'. I've built a pretty large Deathwatch force (no primaris) using a whole bunch of different space marine kits from pretty much all chapters that had unique chapter specific kits or upgrade parts available. Also rounded it off with some 3D printed shoulder pads for the lesser known chapters. It was an utter joy to build and without a doubt the most fun I've had creating an army.

Sadly primaris isnt quite there yet with chapter specific stuff to really do this.

glados wrote:
I agree with the OP here. Deathwatch have pretty much become a generic chapter flavour that is just Primaris in black.

The faction should have been Ordo Xenos complete with stormtrooper/scion options, good inquisitor options as well as kill teams. The whole unique schtick should have been a book that combined IG and space marine elements with its own twist.

They also need the kits/encouragement to push what the real joy in Deathwatch is, a custom army of 'your dudes'. I've built a pretty large Deathwatch force (no primaris) using a whole bunch of different space marine kits from pretty much all chapters that had unique chapter specific kits or upgrade parts available. Also rounded it off with some 3D printed shoulder pads for the lesser known chapters. It was an utter joy to build and without a doubt the most fun I've had creating an army.

Sadly primaris isnt quite there yet with chapter specific stuff to really do this.

I really wish that's how they did it myself. I've been collecting inquisitors and scions to build my own ordo xenos force regardless of cp inefficiency.

If DW were part of greater ordo xenos army it would be excusable to make them stand out with a better stat line

Tyel 793551 10978485 wrote:

*GW makes plastic Sisters with rules comfortably putting them in the top half of factions and they sell out almost everywhere.*

"Its a fluke."

.

Well we don't how many units of sob stuff they made. You can boost any type of sales by telling it sold out in 5 sec, by just making 2000 units of something. And when at the same time another thing you make sells in 5sec, and people come with pitch forks and fire at your for not making enough units of that other thing, and you made 100000 of that other thing, then next time you are going to be more inclined to make and sell that other thing. It is safer too.

McDonald could make vegan burgers right now, and make the whole supply sell out in a day. But it wouldn't mean that vegan burgers are a good idea, or somehow equal to regular ones.