New info up on Warhammer Community, with the promise of more to come.
Warhammer Community]
As you’ll have no doubt seen in the recent Warhammer Preview Online, followers of a new greenskin ‘subkultur’ have arrived to bring their own brand of krumpin’ to the galaxy. Called the Beast Snaggas, these master squig-breeders ride to war on their ferocious red steeds,* kicking, biting, and stabbing anything within their reach.
Just because they eschew the trukks and bikes of their Speed Freek cousins’ armies, doesn’t mean the Beast Snaggas are averse to using some of the local Mekboyz’s creations. Think of them as pro-squig, rather than anti-thinkin’. After all, it’s rare to find an Ork who wouldn’t appreciate how you can make a humble spear louder and killier by adding rocket boosters to it.
Their appreciation for ‘da old ways’, and their disregard for more complex Orky technology, leads many of the Snakebite clan to become Beast Snaggas, although their ilk can be found across the entire spectrum of Ork society.** Even a no-nonsense Goff can look at a squighog’s shockingly large teeth and figure out how best to apply them to some poor git’s face.
The Beast Snagga boyz themselves are hulking mountains of muscle even by regular Ork standards – spending a lifetime chasing down and grappling with ravenous beasts breeds particularly hardy individuals. Even their Gretchin underlings are a smidge braver than usual,*** as those affectionately dubbed ‘saddlegitz’ hold on for dear life and take whatever swings they can.
Stay tuned to learn more about the savage Beast Snaggas and the ingenious ways they use giant, red mouth-monsters. In the meantime, prepare for the Waaagh! by grabbing some of their Speed Freek rivals in a Boomdakka Snazzwagon or Shokkjump Dragsta. You can even bridge the gap between the two subkulturs with a Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy – although knowing the Orks, they’re just as likely to fight both sides.
Don’t forget, there’s a wealth of Orky stories for you to brush up on too. Just ask Makari – he’ll tell you exactly what you should be reading right now.
* Being born red means they make naturally fast mounts, you see.
I mean, it's not too outlandish for 40k. No models, but warboars and cyboars have been a thing in ork lore forever. The only real difference is that we've got squig boars, and there are 1000s of different squig varieties (including four legged squiggoths). Also given the recent GW boar creatures are these guys, I think we're lucky, all things considered.
No, absolutely. I'm aware of cyboars but there is not enough cyber in those boars for my taste. 40k orks are scrap mechanics and those look a bit too clean to me. Nothing a bit of kitbashing couldn't fix mind you, but then again, we have bikes and trikes to fill that particular niche already. Maybe they will make more sense in the larger context of the other beast snaggas.
I like em personally, because I'm always game for squig units since they're pretty underrepresented in 40k. However, I hope this doesn't restrict them from properly updating the last few kits that need a plastic makeover in the Ork range (looking at you deffkoptas, kommandos, and tankbustas).
Also, I feel bad for IG because we're basically getting Ork rough riders while IG's (barring DKoK) got squatted.
GaroRobe wrote: The heads do look more AOS-y than the orks we're used to. But I'm game.
But seriously GW. You're releasing an army of Orks on squigs, but we still don't have a kroot army or exodites.
Where did they say it's an army?
The article today points towards them being part of Orks, not their own schtick.
Warhammer Community wrote: As you’ll have no doubt seen in the recent Warhammer Preview Online, followers of a new greenskin ‘subkultur’ have arrived to bring their own brand of krumpin’ to the galaxy. Called the Beast Snaggas...
These big soft details are really giving off a Fisher-Price. Hope GW manages to pick up the ball with the rest of these, kinda like the units teased in the trailer, but not super hopeful...
Warhammer Community wrote:Their appreciation for ‘da old ways’, and their disregard for more complex Orky technology, leads many of the Snakebite clan to become Beast Snaggas, although their ilk can be found across the entire spectrum of Ork society.** Even a no-nonsense Goff can look at a squighog’s shockingly large teeth and figure out how best to apply them to some poor git’s face.
That's why I'm saying it sounds more like an expansion to the Ork range rather than its own army and asking for anything about them specifically calling out them as a new army.
I don’t play Orks but I think these look like great fun. Also bodes well for Ork players as any teases of new units seem to indicate a new Codex soon. (And Brian from Tabletop Titans dropped a hint around the time of the first reveal of these guys that he was painting up a new Ork army and that he only starts things when there’s a reason...)
If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN> units in ORK Detachments (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same clan.
A subculture of Orks includes: Speed Freaks, Fly Boyz (Often a subculture of Speed Freaks), Stormboyz, Burna Boyz... Typically if an Ork takes something too far, it's probably a subculture of some sort.
I mean, it's not too outlandish for 40k. No models, but warboars and cyboars have been a thing in ork lore forever. The only real difference is that we've got squig boars, and there are 1000s of different squig varieties (including four legged squiggoths). Also given the recent GW boar creatures are these guys, I think we're lucky, all things considered.
I'm not sure how edgy people were expecting a squig unit to be. Other than the usual washed out feeling and cartoony paint job the studio chose to give it, the model looks great to me.
Can anyone who hates this point to a sculpt they actually like? Maybe my tastes are just different. In Sisters/DEldar releases it seems like it's just 'not Victoria's Secret model enough for me', sentiment wise.
But I like this boy, the face on particular is dynamic as opposed to static. So is the squig, though I think the photo isnt doing the leg proportions justice.
I am so excited for all these! Give me ALL THE SQUIGS!!!
I think they look amazing. I am glad the orks are keeping things a bit silly. I can't wait to see what other people are doing with their paint jobs.
This is a unit I always thought they should have. I loved the boar riders, but it made more sense to me that they would ride squigs, not boars(in 40k). The lore has always said they have squigs of all types from food up to beasts of burden and beasts of war.
By Mork n Gork,I can't wait to see what else they come out with, and I am PRAYING they let us use basic squigs as a troop type.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't know what they're doing with Orks.
Is this it's own Codex? Is this the new release for the Ork Codex?
Probably a supplement linked force to the be folded into the main Ork Codex? The mention in the article that even a Goff can become a Beast Snagga suggests they’ll work within the existing clan system?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't know what they're doing with Orks.
Is this it's own Codex? Is this the new release for the Ork Codex?
I'm guessing the units will be universal, with beast snaggas being a new sub culture option like pyromaniaks or tinheads with the psychic awakening stuff all rolled into the main book (and hopefully most kustom jobs rolled into the relevant units)
It's too much Age of Sigmar Savage Orruk looking for me. Not enough Ork.
It's almost as though the sculptors were doing some AoS stuff and couldn't make much of a separation in their heads from what they were doing for AoS and what they're doing for 40k.
Suppose they'd look OK in a Snakebite army, if that's still a thing or is going to be a thing again.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't know what they're doing with Orks.
Is this it's own Codex? Is this the new release for the Ork Codex?
Probably a supplement linked force to the be folded into the main Ork Codex? The mention in the article that even a Goff can become a Beast Snagga suggests they’ll work within the existing clan system?
Or at the very least they'll be something along the lines of Freebooterz, having been kicked out of their clan but can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur.
I wonder if this is a hint about the future of boar boyz in general. Squighogs are a lot easier to protect in terms of IP. Maybe I need to get those savage orc boar boyz for my fantasy army sooner rather than later.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: I wonder if this is a hint about the future of boar boyz in general. Squighogs are a lot easier to protect in terms of IP. Maybe I need to get those savage orc boar boyz for my fantasy army sooner rather than later.
I think savage orruk boar boyz are safe, but only because GW doesn't plan on updating that line for awhile. Meanwhile, the similar (and slightly superior) boar boyz got squatted with the other normal orcs, and goregruntas were introduced for ironjawz. (Though, you'd think wolf riders would also be on the cutting board and they got new models for Underworlds. And space ork boars could probably be copyright protected.)
I'm carefully optimistic. The models look nice - the paint scheme is a bit... bland? maybe, but has potential I think, at least if you dirty them up a bit and maybe add some gubbinz to make them more cyboarnetic.
It's nice how GW is picking up old concepts, and because I love the Orks, I am thankful for all the new models they get - but to be honest, I would rather see some new basic Astra Militarum or Craftworld Eldar kits, they need it more than the Orks do.
I like the squighog and I like the grot, it's actually the ork rider that I don't like. Maybe it's just the camera angle? But just doesn't look right. And neither does the paint job. New paint job and hopefully better heads will make those models look better.
So are these different from Snakebites? Am I missing something there?
As someone who is about to start Snakebite Orks these are great and exactly what I missed about 40K Orks. Feral Orks have been an afterthought in 40K since... 3rd Edition I guess?
I can't wait to mix these with boar boyz and other Squig units (Kromlech released some Squig - Killa Kanz last year that will work great side by side with these).
As to the question of how they tie in- psychic Awakening made subkultures return, so they aren't a Klan, but a subkulture, like speed Freaks, Grot Mobs, feral Orks, flyboyz, pyromaniacs etc. These all have rules already. So far they replace the Klan, I'd bet in the new Codex you can combine your Klan with a subkulture, so you have Snakebite feral Orks, or Goff Beasts snaggas. Question is whether these will be based on detachments full of one subkulture.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't know what they're doing with Orks.
Is this it's own Codex? Is this the new release for the Ork Codex?
Probably a supplement linked force to the be folded into the main Ork Codex? The mention in the article that even a Goff can become a Beast Snagga suggests they’ll work within the existing clan system?
Or at the very least they'll be something along the lines of Freebooterz, having been kicked out of their clan but can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur.
The way the warhammer website made it out the Beast Snagga is just the name of the unit. They just, for some reason, GW made them out to be an entire army in the reveal.
Snakebite will still be the clan kulture, and most likely you will be able to have Snakebite Beast Snaggas.
Linking to the original reveal. If the reveal is to be believe there will most likely be 4 or 5 other "new" GW products for orks to follow this. My guess a squig pulled "tank", squig squad, warboss, warboss in mega armour, painboy(?) with metal legs.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't know what they're doing with Orks.
Is this it's own Codex? Is this the new release for the Ork Codex?
Probably a supplement linked force to the be folded into the main Ork Codex? The mention in the article that even a Goff can become a Beast Snagga suggests they’ll work within the existing clan system?
Or at the very least they'll be something along the lines of Freebooterz, having been kicked out of their clan but can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur.
The way the warhammer website made it out the Beast Snagga is just the name of the unit. They just, for some reason, GW made them out to be an entire army in the reveal.
Snakebite will still be the clan kulture, and most likely you will be able to have Snakebite Beast Snaggas.
Linking to the original reveal. If the reveal is to be believe there will most likely be 4 or 5 other "new" GW products for orks to follow this. My guess a squig pulled "tank", squig squad, warboss, warboss in mega armour, painboy(?) with metal legs.
Take a look.
The unit are called ‘Squighog Boyz’. Beast Snagga’s appears to be the wider subkulture.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given the same trailer seems to show a conventional Warboss in Mega Armour, chances it’s a dual kit for variation, rather than two separate kits?
It also seems to be promise new Boyz, with shoulder mounted ‘Eavy Weapons more reminiscent of the Rogue Trader era.
Could be multipart warboss kit. But my guess is separate kits, based on GW's recent minis.
Don't know about the new ork box. Maybe but wasn't it recently that they were redone?
I don’t care for these guys... I think it might have worked if squig mounts looked more.. well, squig-like. Or more Squiggoth(Godzilla)-like.
Or just boars with mecha gubbins. This sculpt suffers from a serious case of CAD gone wrong.
zend wrote: Looks like an Ironjawz model with a few 40K bits.
""Ironjawz"" when they have literally ZERO of IJ design cues, don't wear IJ armor, and have 40K weapons and cybernetics.
Well, they are both kinda green, I suppose
What's next, Ossiarch BRs are AoS Eldar?
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: I wonder if this is a hint about the future of boar boyz in general. Squighogs are a lot easier to protect in terms of IP.
Or maybe, just maybe, ork riding terran animals makes no sense whatsoever and it has nothing to do with ol' bogeyman, the IP?
After all, it's not like every single ork knockoff maker didn't steal squigz already, despite them being wholly original GW creation...
I really don't get the complaints about "It doesn't fit 40k Orks". What is it about them that seems out of place? Squiggs are a big part of the Ork culture and they take all sorts of different shapes and sizes, and less technologically-included Orks were already a thing with Feral Orks.
Yeah, gonna be honest i'm expecting the beast snaggas to just be a keyword alongside "Speedfreaks" or "walkerz" i'd be surprised if the keyword itself comes with any actual rules but is just used for stratagems.
On the other hand I could be wrong, maybe it will come with an additional rule or two. But then I would like speedfreaks to get a small rule or two as well. On top of all that we don't know what is gonna happen regarding our Core.
We're seeing the admech datasheets being leaked right now so that's close to release. Just keep yer eyes pealed for any repackaged ork kits.
ImAGeek wrote: It just seems to be like Speed Freeks to me. Not a whole new army, but just Orks of a certain mindset who can be in any klan.
That's what a Subkulture is.
Yeah, which is what these seem to be. But some people seem to think they’re a whole new army.
I mean, they’d be wrong. Even the scant amount of info we have says these beast snaggas pop up in all Clans.
Yeah, this has been clear since the reveal. This is 'Kult of Squigs,' and Beastsnaggas will go in the same Keyword slot as Speed Freeks, and this Squighog Riders will be one of several units. <Clan> will still be a freely chosen Faction keyword.
If you want Bad Moon or even Freebootas Beastsnaggas, its not a problem. [Though as always for ork melee units, Evil Sunz is best. Hopefully that will change when the new codex happens- the Clan Kulturs need an overhaul- Evil Sunz are off theme, Deathskulls give way too much, and Snakebites (and others) way too little]
I'm curious if it's that sorta thing a lotta models have. Where the initial images look garbage but the models in your hand look much much better. A few of the imperial vehicles had that in earlier editions.
I really would have probably preferred actual cyboars to make a comeback, the more I think about it. They could have even used a similar sculpt to the Gore-gruntas, except with tons of cybernetics and mechanical bits all over the place.
I also don't like the ...rocket.. spear? I had to look twice because it wasn't clear at all on first glance that it's supposed to be a rocket spear. Not a fan of the ork's face either - the sculpts for ork heads are starting to drift more and more in a direction that I don't like. If they were more "3rd edition Brian Nelson ork" it'd be great. The proportions on these new ones are all wrong.
That said... I like squigs, and it'd be cool to see more squig stuff in general in 40k. I never understood why orks couldn't take squig herds.
I also don't like the ...rocket.. spear? I had to look twice because it wasn't clear at all on first glance that it's supposed to be a rocket spear.
Didn't realize it either. Now I'm sad, because it just means they'd have cauterized stumps for hands.
cody.d wrote:I'm curious if it's that sorta thing a lotta models have. Where the initial images look garbage but the models in your hand look much much better. A few of the imperial vehicles had that in earlier editions.
I'm baffled by this (and honestly don't really believe it- to me most models look like the images they post). They almost entirely sell models by the strength of the photographs; if they're bad at photographing models to the degree people claim (that the physical models are so much better), that's shockingly bad salesmanship, and they need to hire someone who grasps the basic principles of lighting and background.
And that's not even taking into account that many people can't or don't paint (and sometimes struggle with assembly), so 'in person,' odds are really good that any model is going to look worse than the official pics.
I also don't like the ...rocket.. spear? I had to look twice because it wasn't clear at all on first glance that it's supposed to be a rocket spear.
Didn't realize it either. Now I'm sad, because it just means they'd have cauterized stumps for hands.
cody.d wrote:I'm curious if it's that sorta thing a lotta models have. Where the initial images look garbage but the models in your hand look much much better. A few of the imperial vehicles had that in earlier editions.
I'm baffled by this (and honestly don't really believe it- to me most models look like the images they post). They almost entirely sell models by the strength of the photographs; if they're bad at photographing models to the degree people claim (that the physical models are so much better), that's shockingly bad salesmanship, and they need to hire someone who grasps the basic principles of lighting and background.
And that's not even taking into account that many people can't or don't paint (and sometimes struggle with assembly), so 'in person,' odds are really good that any model is going to look worse than the official pics.
There is a bit of a difference between seeing a picture of a model and having it in your hands or even on a display shelf. I've been in the hobby for a while and can remember a few instances like the stormraven where people despised it's initial pictures but after a while that settled down to an "eh it's not so bad, i'm find with it." Just feels like initial reactions based on a single image/angle seems to be occasionally cause over reactions.
Upon saying that. I do sorta hope that the boyz come with helmet options. Or faceplate/masks to match the squigs iron job. But I'm more a helmet over bare headed sort when building models anyway.
I wish they had a bit more obvious tech to show them as part of the 41st millennium. The current models don’t really look more high tech than Kharadron overlord stuff. I may be in the minority, but I do like the squigs instead of boars. The boars always felt very direct from fantasy vs these that fit 40K ork shtick. The squigs look like Berkshire pigs (aka the tastiest type of pig) and I just imagine them to be delicious. Could ork ramen be a thing?
I like the concept, and I like the models. I like the fact that it is a subkultur, both because it isn't replacing the klans, and the existence of a new subkultur indicates they aren't killing off the current subkultur rules (which I really like for variety--do you field an army from one klan, or multiple klan paint jobs in a subkultur?).
I just HATE the fact that the beast snaggas are 'larger, burlier' orks. Not only does this completely contradict what we have known about ork society for multiple codexes--that orks rise in status as they get bigger--but, more importantly, it signals that these orks aren't likely to be cross-compatible with virtually all the other orks that we already have--which is a huge, huge shame for ork modelling enthusiasts.
I don't like the fact that Beast Snaggas seem to be breaking the boy/skarboy/nob/warboss 'size/status' schema. Maybe that will be okay. Maybe any boy able to 'tame' and ride a squig is basically a skarboy anyway.
But the insane level of cross-compatibility across the ork line has been nothing but good for the ork player. It has made easy, joyful, exuberant conversions commonplace. The Speed Freeks vehicles were awesome, but sadly weak in their modularity. This seems to have embraced that trend, so I view the new models with a bit of trepidation as well as enthusiasm.
So are these different from Snakebites? Am I missing something there?
My impression is that 'Beast Snaggas' is just what they're calling Feral Orks now. They mention in the article that Snakebites have a strong inclination towards becoming Beast Snaggas, which would be in the same way as Evil Sunz tend to be Speed Freaks.
So are these different from Snakebites? Am I missing something there?
My impression is that 'Beast Snaggas' is just what they're calling Feral Orks now. They mention in the article that Snakebites have a strong inclination towards becoming Beast Snaggas, which would be in the same way as Evil Sunz tend to be Speed Freaks.
Yeah, "Beast Snaggas" is just the new copyright-able name for feral orks.
But the insane level of cross-compatibility across the ork line has been nothing but good for the ork player. It has made easy, joyful, exuberant conversions commonplace. The Speed Freeks vehicles were awesome, but sadly weak in their modularity. This seems to have embraced that trend, so I view the new models with a bit of trepidation as well as enthusiasm.
Yup, the fact that they chose to release six different buggy kits instead of one kit with optional components, combined with their current approach to rules design, was a fairly strong indicator that GW aren't interested in conversions any more. Add in their current sculpting and tooling approach which favours detail over modularity, and you're left with a pretty clear statement that their aim is to provide models that can be built and used straight out of the box and conversion is something that, while you're welcome to do it, is just not something they're taking into consideration when designing models anymore.
To be fair none of the buggies are more or less modular than the trukk kit, which ork player have converted into all kinds of things. The only thing that's done differently are the orks on the buggies, the vehicles themselves can easily exchange stuff among each other.
I also don't like the ...rocket.. spear? I had to look twice because it wasn't clear at all on first glance that it's supposed to be a rocket spear.
Didn't realize it either. Now I'm sad, because it just means they'd have cauterized stumps for hands.
cody.d wrote:I'm curious if it's that sorta thing a lotta models have. Where the initial images look garbage but the models in your hand look much much better. A few of the imperial vehicles had that in earlier editions.
I'm baffled by this (and honestly don't really believe it- to me most models look like the images they post). They almost entirely sell models by the strength of the photographs; if they're bad at photographing models to the degree people claim (that the physical models are so much better), that's shockingly bad salesmanship, and they need to hire someone who grasps the basic principles of lighting and background.
And that's not even taking into account that many people can't or don't paint (and sometimes struggle with assembly), so 'in person,' odds are really good that any model is going to look worse than the official pics.
Paint job differs. For many gw style isn't appealing so remove paint job and replace it with different and it appears better.
Also miniatures are designed in heroic scale which works optimally looking from game distance. Zoomed up it exaggerates proportion oddities.
I just HATE the fact that the beast snaggas are 'larger, burlier' orks. Not only does this completely contradict what we have known about ork society for multiple codexes--that orks rise in status as they get bigger--but, more importantly, it signals that these orks aren't likely to be cross-compatible with virtually all the other orks that we already have--which is a huge, huge shame for ork modelling enthusiasts.
.
Well either you get no new models or you lose cross compatibility. Gw stopped that long time ago.
That's why not all are thrilled with idea of new boyz. Higher price, no customization. Heavy weapons all on same body etc.
Im in love with them, I recently started a Ork army, which is a large mixture of savage ork models from AoS and some other normal Orkz which some savage bitz mixed onto them
(As deffskulls so I can boast the war paint I've painted on can let the Ork headbutt a lascannon and WIN)
This is right up my street and will awesome next to my boar boy bikers
cody.d wrote:I'm curious if it's that sorta thing a lotta models have. Where the initial images look garbage but the models in your hand look much much better. A few of the imperial vehicles had that in earlier editions.
I'm baffled by this (and honestly don't really believe it- to me most models look like the images they post). They almost entirely sell models by the strength of the photographs; if they're bad at photographing models to the degree people claim (that the physical models are so much better), that's shockingly bad salesmanship, and they need to hire someone who grasps the basic principles of lighting and background.
And that's not even taking into account that many people can't or don't paint (and sometimes struggle with assembly), so 'in person,' odds are really good that any model is going to look worse than the official pics.
To me this is usually an attempt at deflecting criticism. You can easily tell how a sculpt looks, even despite the "bad" studio paint job. One notable exception are faces, where the past has shown that the studio paint job turns women into abominations on a regular basis.
ive got a big ork army but i think snakebite's dont belong in 40K they are leftover from the old world. they would die before making contact with the enemy
When you are running screaming at an opponent as fast as possible, it doesn't really matter whether you are wielding a spear or a chain sword while shooting your slugga into the air to make some noise.
Yeah, 40k has this whole "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" thing for many units. The beast snaggas are hardly the only (or the worst) offender.
Trench warfare when you have orbital bombardment capabilities? Yeah...
skeleton wrote: ive got a big ork army but i think snakebite's dont belong in 40K they are leftover from the old world. they would die before making contact with the enemy
How's so? Because enemy got guns? Same applies to berserkers, like half the orks army, half the tyranids army, assault marines, death company, space wolves...
I like the concept and it seems like it should be a fun unit for the table. Fast (10" movement hopefully), the rocket spear seems like it would have ranged and melee capabilities, they should be somewhat durable and I imagine they'll be solid in CC.
The face I'm not keen on but with a more classic skin paint job perhaps it'll be fine.
Hopefully they will have more than a wet t-shirt save and more than one wound. Orks don't need another unit that is auto-deleted.
Wish I had kept my old metal boarboyz...
Goreshrek wrote: Hopefully they will have more than a wet t-shirt save and more than one wound. Orks don't need another unit that is auto-deleted.
Wish I had kept my old metal boarboyz...
I am thinking they will be T6 but with a 5+ save. Maybe 3-4 wounds. I am basing this on the T+1 increase in the FWIA for 9th that orks received for non vehicle models. I am also assuming a basic ork boy will be T5.
Basically a wet t-shirt with some random bits of scrap metal bolted on.
I also agree this is just a re-launch of feral orks, but with models instead of 3rd party models/bits or conversions. I think they look orky and unique, orks in the lore exist in cycles that often start out mostly feral as they acquire scrap and oddboyz start appearing and making things, so lore wise there should be low-tek orks even in 40k. I actually really like how they have some high-tek bits on them as they look like they are transitioning from low-tek to more standard 40k orky "high-tek". These are basically angry ork luddites.
I wonder if we'll see this trend of taking an Ork klan Kulture and exploring it via a subkulture continue. We've had not necessarily Evil Sunz and now not necessarily Snake Bites. Next we might get Sneaky Gitz who aren't necessarily Blood Axes but are always the sneakiest gitz in whatever klan they're in.
skeleton wrote: ive got a big ork army but i think snakebite's dont belong in 40K they are leftover from the old world. they would die before making contact with the enemy
Idk. Orks have had boars in the fluff since forever. Orks are also a horde enemy, so they've probably got other units to serve as chaff and distract the enemy enough for the beast snaggas to get into close combat. Plus melee calvary totally exists in 40k. Look at the DKK death riders. They have just spears (not even custode spears which fire ammo)
skeleton wrote: ive got a big ork army but i think snakebite's dont belong in 40K they are leftover from the old world. they would die before making contact with the enemy
Idk. Orks have had boars in the fluff since forever. Orks are also a horde enemy, so they've probably got other units to serve as chaff and distract the enemy enough for the beast snaggas to get into close combat. Plus melee calvary totally exists in 40k. Look at the DKK death riders. They have just spears (not even custode spears which fire ammo)
One question i'm curious about is are they more like javelins? Meant to be thrown and use the rockets for better penetration on targets. Still keen to see more of the models, or the rules, or the sprue. Seems like Sisters are confirmed to be next and are coming rather soon. (updated sheets have been seen) so maybe GW is picking up it's release schedule to pre covid levels again?
cody.d. wrote: One question i'm curious about is are they more like javelins? Meant to be thrown and use the rockets for better penetration on targets.
Could be like the one-shot Tachyon Arrow for Necrons, one shot but a doozy if it hits.
It would fit the MO of a few of the buggies. Where it has main weapons then a few subweapons fired by riders. Reckon it's possible the grots will get a grenade toss, the boy will chuck a spear then the squig does the CCW attacks?
skeleton wrote: ive got a big ork army but i think snakebite's dont belong in 40K they are leftover from the old world. they would die before making contact with the enemy
Idk. Orks have had boars in the fluff since forever. Orks are also a horde enemy, so they've probably got other units to serve as chaff and distract the enemy enough for the beast snaggas to get into close combat. Plus melee calvary totally exists in 40k. Look at the DKK death riders. They have just spears (not even custode spears which fire ammo)
I just like seeing the glimpse of the Orkisystem that gets set up once most of the older life has been eaten or burnt away. Orks are a ecological catastrophe of invasive species that kick start an entire ecosystem to colonise the rad soaked ruin of whatever the hulk landed in, that's far more dangerous than just the burly green guys with guns. They're terra/orkiforming the planet so that it'll never be the same.
al the other factions that charge the enemy headlong have (power)armour and carry guns even the khorn beserkers and the deathcompagny to.
DKK are forge world and dont count , even the gaurd lost them
skeleton wrote: al the other factions that charge the enemy headlong have (power)armour and carry guns even the khorn beserkers and the deathcompagny to.
DKK are forge world and dont count , even the gaurd lost them
Nids and daemons don't.
Honestly quite surprised by a lot of peoples reaction to these. Seems they thought 40k was a hard sci-fi setting for some reason.
skeleton wrote: al the other factions that charge the enemy headlong have (power)armour and carry guns even the khorn beserkers and the deathcompagny to.
DKK are forge world and dont count , even the gaurd lost them
Nids and daemons don't.
Honestly quite surprised by a lot of peoples reaction to these. Seems they thought 40k was a hard sci-fi setting for some reason.
Soft Sci-Fi doesn't mean the models need to be designed using only the smear brush option
skeleton wrote: al the other factions that charge the enemy headlong have (power)armour and carry guns even the khorn beserkers and the deathcompagny to.
DKK are forge world and dont count , even the gaurd lost them
Orks, tyranids. Flayed ones ain't touting power armour(or 3+). Eldar have non-3+. Dark eldar. Daemons. Maybe others.
You were saying?
Funny how people make silly claims easily disproven. People enjoy being publicly horribly wrong?
WarCom wrote:Now, I’z been ‘earin that some of you boyz ‘av been getting yer teef kicked in by them big Beast Snagga gitz. Oi! I don’t care ‘ow much of a laff that is, I wanna know wot makes them boyz so tuff. Get the ‘oomies back on da case, dey figgered out da squighog stuff in dis reg’lar feature last time, right? Wot’s a reggiler feature anyway? Zog it, you ladz make my ‘ed ‘urt…
The Beast Snaggas might be well known for riding into battle on the backs of various squig species, but some delight in bringing their targets down on their own two feet. Banding together into large mobs of Beast Snagga Boyz, these ferocious fighters can often be found crashing into the monsters brought down by their stikka-lobbing comrades and hacking their tough hides to pieces.
A (relatively short) lifetime of hunting huge, dangerous beasts has made these Orks particularly large and strong in comparison with regular Boyz. While they’re not quite as durable as a Nob, they can certainly swing their choppas just as hard, which makes them especially prone to lording it over the Boyz they charge alongside.
Although the Beast Snaggas’ adherence to the old ways of Orky culture makes them an ideal fit for the equally traditionalist Snakebites, they can be found across almost every clan. While other greenskins might see them as a bit weird, no one will turn down a few extra bodies in a fight, and it can be a good laugh seeing the Beast Snagga Boyz trying to harpoon giant tanks.
As if they weren’t tough enough already, the frequent and plentiful injuries that come as part of any career in squig-wrangling* mean frequent trips to the Dok, and by necessity Beast Snagga Doks are some of the most ‘creative’ around. Thankfully, we haven’t had a reason to catch a look at one up close just yet, but surely they can’t be any worse than Ghazghkull’s personal sawbones…
Are you looking to start up your own Waaagh! in preparation for the Beast Snaggas’ arrival? Begin your green tide today with the Start Collecting! Orks set, then fill it out with whatever you fancy, be it more Boyz, a Boss Mob, or even a hulking Gorkanaut. We’ll be back in two weeks with another bit of reconnaissance.
* When even your breakfast is squig-based, it’s a given that you’re going to get bitten one of these days.
The head on this guy certainly looks more "ork" than the ones on the Squighog riders.
I think I like him, though it doesn't appear as if there's much poseability to the mini. Guessing we'll get these in boxes of 5 or 10 individual sculpts. Knowing GW, it'll be 5 for $55.
I wonder how they'll handle the granularity of "tougher than boyz but not as tough as nobz"?.
Mr. Grey wrote: The head on this guy certainly looks more "ork" than the ones on the Squighog riders.
I think I like him, though it doesn't appear as if there's much poseability to the mini. Guessing we'll get these in boxes of 5 or 10 individual sculpts. Knowing GW, it'll be 5 for $55.
I wonder how they'll handle the granularity of "tougher than boyz but not as tough as nobz"?.
S5 T4 keep them at 1 wound probably
"While they’re not quite as durable as a Nob, they can certainly swing their choppas just as hard, which makes them especially prone to lording it over the Boyz they charge alongside."
Mr_Rose wrote: So… they’re basically Skarboyz but with regular Ork armour (i.e. tissue paper and wishes)?
That’s fine.
They may just be Skarboyz, to differentiate them from normal boyz and remove that strategem. We also know they have some shoulder mounted big shootas too, so could be a soft replacement for the current boyz box if they give shootas as an option.
skeleton wrote: al the other factions that charge the enemy headlong have (power)armour and carry guns even the khorn beserkers and the deathcompagny to.
DKK are forge world and dont count , even the gaurd lost them
Blackie wrote: Godawful, both the concept and the sculpt. Easy pass for me.
New orks are meh at best. I wanted to like the new IP buggies but too IP mono for my taste. Now these not boar boys boar boys... just more GW money grabber bad faith in action.
GW money grabbers, 2 wounds 2++ with invisibility. No wonder they got rid of templates.
My guess would be they're built more around melee than shooting (the plain warbikers are much better at shooting than melee, though they're still rubbish at both for their points). Probably will have a normal-ish "biker" statline, but with abilities triggering on the charge.
I suppose the real question will be how they compare to nob bikers, especially in melee weapons.
Tzeentchling9 wrote: Hopefully Grots got some love. Because just +1 to hit for "super" grots seems pretty meh.
3+ to hit while being able to also do actions for chaff troop unit is bad now?
It is when you only have a 12" S3 AP- pistol weapon. It's possible they buff up grot blastas slightly, or they introduce a new grot unit, but if all things stay the same as is, its effectively a waste of ink.
Yea those super grots sound pretty useless. Would be better if they got a defensive buff, like a -1 to hit or something, because you hardly take grots for their offensive output.
We obviously don't have the full picture yet for Zogrod, but given how precious the HQ slots are in an ork list, and given the fact that the "super grots" rule is utterly worthless and his strike last is both random and super conditional.
I can't see him getting into many peoples matched play lists.
Which is a shame as the model is great.
I hope its not a sign of whats to come for the codex, we don't want random rules because Orks, we want stuff that actually works on the battlefield.
Lord Damocles wrote: Oh, that's actually supposed to be real hair..?
Well dayum.
It's like in the old days; it's a hair squig attached with staples
Even hair squigs have multiple hair-like thin stands of ...hair. Whatever this model has is big and chunky, even by GW's recent standards after they lost the STC files for sculpting textured hair.
Even hair squigs have multiple hair-like thin stands of ...hair. Whatever this model has is big and chunky, even by GW's recent standards after they lost the STC files for sculpting textured hair.
Maybe they're a new breed of chunkier hair squig. Really this is not a design choice on the mini that bothers me. He certainly looks way more orky than the new Painboss that they previewed a few weeks back.
The new painboss is designed for you to flip the top of his head open and put a snotling in it driving him like a robot suit (if the standard snotlings are too big, there are a couple of smaller ones on one of the AoS goblin wizard's base) that i'm sure would work
Even hair squigs have multiple hair-like thin stands of ...hair. Whatever this model has is big and chunky, even by GW's recent standards after they lost the STC files for sculpting textured hair.
Maybe they're a new breed of chunkier hair squig. Really this is not a design choice on the mini that bothers me. He certainly looks way more orky than the new Painboss that they previewed a few weeks back.
I mean, he's much more skinnier and spindlier, so if that what means Orky for you, are Gretchin the Orkiest Orks around?
Even hair squigs have multiple hair-like thin stands of ...hair. Whatever this model has is big and chunky, even by GW's recent standards after they lost the STC files for sculpting textured hair.
Maybe they're a new breed of chunkier hair squig. Really this is not a design choice on the mini that bothers me. He certainly looks way more orky than the new Painboss that they previewed a few weeks back.
I mean, he's much more skinnier and spindlier, so if that what means Orky for you, are Gretchin the Orkiest Orks around?
Nobody ever said orks had to be burly sacks of muscle. The Painboss looks a bit more like he'd fit right into a Dark Eldar army if you painted him in anything but green.
I assume the first part is sarcasm, since cyborks have been around forever, Zagstruk has his power klaw legs, etc.
Zodgrod is a bit lanky, though making him goblin-y is actually pretty clever and not something I had considered. Good juxtaposition from the current runtherder model, who's just a big fat guy. I think it works though, since Zod's an outcast who hangs out with grots, and normal runtherders get grots to do all their heavy lifting (and are probably snacking on them all the time.)
As for the Painboss, I think he's orky enough. Like Zodgrod, he's based off an old metal model (though not a named character.) Plus it's funny that he has a very high-tech mechanical hand in his backpack, but opted for the claw one instead.
Tzeentchling9 wrote: Hopefully Grots got some love. Because just +1 to hit for "super" grots seems pretty meh.
3+ to hit while being able to also do actions for chaff troop unit is bad now?
20+ gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway, and since they have crappy S3 no AP 12'' pistols in practise smaller units won't achieve anything with a +1 to hit. Due to the low range they might even not be in range of anything if they're doing some actions, as they typically do work in the ork deployment zone.
Of couse 30'' S4 AP-1 or -2 that are also able to do actions for chaff troop unit would be extremely good, but I'm afraid that's another book you have in mind .
If our Dreads and Kanz are not core I will be livid because all save those Leviathan Dreads are Core for Space Marines, but they are GW's favored children.
Though getting 3+ to hit Killa Kanz will be nice, and could make them more viable.
panzerfront14 wrote: If our Dreads and Kanz are not core I will be livid because all save those Leviathan Dreads are Core for Space Marines, but they are GW's favored children.
Though getting 3+ to hit Killa Kanz will be nice, and could make them more viable.
If FW is anything to go by they're all likely to get the WALKERZ keyword and have buffs to interact with that much like speedfreeks. Using Buzzgob as a indicator. Beast Snaggaz will likely have a few specific buffing auras/abilities as well.
A small fear towards the new dex is the breakbown into subfactions. I am afraid the buff may be too especific. Much like happend with Crons, where the interactions between destroyers, canoptek and whatnot is very low.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Because Orks never had prosthetics or cybernetics? And being literally made for fighting kinda leads itself to being burly sacks of muscle
Tastyfish wrote: Dreads core, but not Kans I reckon, based on nothing at all other than that Kans aren't orks
That doesn't really matter for core though. We don't really have any army with light walkers to see any pattern, traditionally kanz were the counterparts to AM sentinels or craftworld warwalkers. Talos and Chronos are CORE for drukhari, while drones and MBH aren't core for Death Guard, so it really could go either way. It will be interesting to see if the new sister mechs are core or not.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Because Orks never had prosthetics or cybernetics? And being literally made for fighting kinda leads itself to being burly sacks of muscle
panzerfront14 wrote: If our Dreads and Kanz are not core I will be livid because all save those Leviathan Dreads are Core for Space Marines, but they are GW's favored children.
Though getting 3+ to hit Killa Kanz will be nice, and could make them more viable.
Even possible 2+ to hit, re-rolling 1s, if current kustom jobs and subkultures are going to stay. Sniper grots!!
Grot snipers would make too much sense. What else would Orks to with captured guns that fire slowly? Give them to grots and have them support Kommandoz - or support da revolushn by killing Ork oppressors from far away. Not that sniper units are amazing, but they're cool. And now I think I have to convert some.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Of course i was being sarcastic! Making fun of people who think the new Painboy doesn't remotely look like an Ork because he's a Cybork
All I said was that Wortsnagga looked (in my personal opinion) more orky than the new Painboss.
So some non-Dakka related... things... happened last Friday that prevented me from posting until now.
GW put aside a whole day of their "Warhammer Fest" to show off the new Beast Snaggas and managed to decidedly not show off the new Beast Snaggas. How predictable. They showed more mono-pose boys, and the other two Squig Riders. Gave us a new HQ Squig dude, and put a guy known for dealing with Gretchin in a box that has no Gretchin. Terrific job there GW.
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
Ork players can convert and kitbash literally everything, I bet there's tons of them out there with a kitbashed model they could reasonably Proxy as a Warboss in Megaarmour with a big choppa right now.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gave us a new HQ Squig dude, and put a guy known for dealing with Gretchin in a box that has no Gretchin. Terrific job there GW.
Let me guess, if they actually put some in, you'd complain instead about evul GW putting 50 year old sculpts in the box that don't match the theme at all to inflate the price? I really like how, given so many real reasons to complain about GW, you can always find nothing burger with people picking at stuff that makes no sense. Oh no, GW lets you save money and use existing collection, how villainous!
Blackie wrote: The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
Yup, because counting his claw as one (given no confusion is possible) is sooo hard, am I rite?
Also, I wonder what will happen if it actually does have the option and all the complainers will be proven wrong. Probably crickets like usual...
Yup, because counting his claw as one (given no confusion is possible) is sooo hard, am I rite?
Also, I wonder what will happen if it actually does have the option and all the complainers will be proven wrong. Probably crickets like usual...
WYSIWYG is typically required at tournaments. Think about mek gunz: a player might have one of each and it wouldn't be confusing at all to count all of them as a single type of mek gunz. But guess what, not everyone (and definitely not all TOs) will allow a bubblechukka or a traktor to count as a smasha gun. Even if no confusion is possible.
I play with proxies and counts as all the time, and I'll definitely use my old ghaz as warboss in megarmour (and my AOBR slugga/choppa nobz will count as snaggas) but not everyone is ok in doing or allowing that.
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
If we're lucky he comes with an alternate set of arms with a PK. Depends on if it fits on the sprue I guess.
Would be silly to only allow PK on a regular boss and big choppa on the megaboss. My main concern though is if we don't get a decent relic to give him, because with only the basic weapons a megaboss is pretty lame (in comparison to many other factions HQs) unless he also gets a decent stats boost and/or some special rules.
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
That's not a warboss in megarmor with a big choppa. It's actually not even a 40k model .
And all the people I know that bought that model to play it as a 40k warboss cut its right arm and replaced it with a power klaw!
As long as we get all the options and upgrades we need and want I will be happy. Hopefully GW will release the new ork models with all their upgrades. I would help to sell more orks if they do.
Pointer5 wrote: As long as we get all the options and upgrades we need and want I will be happy. Hopefully GW will release the new ork models with all their upgrades. I would help to sell more orks if they do.
That's likely to be true, though not in the way you would expect it - there won't be any option for upgrades which aren't in the box.
H.B.M.C. 797386 wrote:Gave us a new HQ Squig dude, and put a guy known for dealing with Gretchin in a box that has no Gretchin. Terrific job there GW.
It's a spearhead box. Bunch of new models and a codex before the full release. I bought the SM one for 5th edition. Drop pod, scout bikes, metal sternguard and vanguard, and like 5 characters from 3 different chapters
MajorWesJanson wrote: It's a spearhead box. Bunch of new models and a codex before the full release. I bought the SM one for 5th edition. Drop pod, scout bikes, metal sternguard and vanguard, and like 5 characters from 3 different chapters
MajorWesJanson wrote: It's a spearhead box. Bunch of new models and a codex before the full release. I bought the SM one for 5th edition. Drop pod, scout bikes, metal sternguard and vanguard, and like 5 characters from 3 different chapters
And that type of box stopped years ago.
And then started again, with Sisters and Lumineth. It’s not something they do consistently now, but it’s not something they never do either.
Pointer5 wrote: As long as we get all the options and upgrades we need and want I will be happy. Hopefully GW will release the new ork models with all their upgrades. I would help to sell more orks if they do.
They do have all their upgrades. One model squad gets to have a double handed axe or whatever kind of blastgun. Plus whatever big axe the not-a-nob variant has. The nob has some gear too, but probably unique to him.
That's it.
-----
And yeah, this box is similar to sisters and lumenith. Biggest difference to cow elves is it will have a real codex, not a half finished one that will be completed later.
MajorWesJanson wrote: It's a spearhead box. Bunch of new models and a codex before the full release. I bought the SM one for 5th edition. Drop pod, scout bikes, metal sternguard and vanguard, and like 5 characters from 3 different chapters
And that type of box stopped years ago.
What do you mean stopped? Discount boxes for new stuff with solo releases later been stapple of gw strategy for years
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
That's not a warboss in megarmor with a big choppa. It's actually not even a 40k model .
And all the people I know that bought that model to play it as a 40k warboss cut its right arm and replaced it with a power klaw!
I put a Killa Kan arm on him, personally.
....and then a killa kan big shoota.
And then a grot head, the one with the baseball cap.
Suffused with the energies of the Boston Red Sox, Grotzghkhull leads his band of revolooshunaries to glorious victory, DOUBLING the offensive output of all nearby grots!
The reason there are no grots in the box is because they didn't make new gretchin for this release. If this was a normal versus box, then we probably would have gotten gretchin. And then someone would complain about having to spend a lot of money on a box that includes a cheap unit like them.
Though I guess you could argue, why include the runtherder in this box?
At least the Mega-Armoured Warboss is cool, but given his distinct lack of Power Klaw, I guess Ork players are about to lose that option as well. Cool.
That option was already lost to be fair, as the warboss in megarmor doesn't exist anymore since 8th codex. Only lives in legends.
The mega armoured boss' big choppa has only one purpose: to force ork players to buy the model and avoid using the old ghaz model as a reasonable proxy instead. No one has a warboss in megarmor with big choppa. That's why they give it to the new boss.
That's not a warboss in megarmor with a big choppa. It's actually not even a 40k model .
And all the people I know that bought that model to play it as a 40k warboss cut its right arm and replaced it with a power klaw!
I put a Killa Kan arm on him, personally.
....and then a killa kan big shoota.
And then a grot head, the one with the baseball cap.
Suffused with the energies of the Boston Red Sox, Grotzghkhull leads his band of revolooshunaries to glorious victory, DOUBLING the offensive output of all nearby grots!
I made a megaboss using this model, just using some spare Orky bits from other kits.
GaroRobe wrote: The reason there are no grots in the box is because they didn't make new gretchin for this release. If this was a normal versus box, then we probably would have gotten gretchin. And then someone would complain about having to spend a lot of money on a box that includes a cheap unit like them.
Though I guess you could argue, why include the runtherder in this box?
To put a named character in there to ruin any savings advantage multiples of it would provide.
Not feeling it (the t5 boys) seems too much, I wouldn't say they as tough as death guard In the lore as tough as a marine out of armour sure. But 5 is too much.
JoeRugby wrote: Not feeling it (the t5 boys) seems too much, I wouldn't say they as tough as death guard In the lore as tough as a marine out of armour sure. But 5 is too much.
What would you rather have had it as? T4 W2?
For me I think the suspension of disbelief is more about the invulnerable save and how much skin is showing. Scars or no scars, a lascannon should be lethal.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For someone still stuck on the old To Wound matrix, how much does the T5 help out?
On average basic guns (lasgun, boltgun) are at S 3-4 bracket and melee being similar so it mean Orks are wounded at 5+ on general now. Big bonus altogether.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For someone still stuck on the old To Wound matrix, how much does the T5 help out?
You'll need S10 for a 2+ to wound. So everything from S6-9 will be 3+, while S3-4 will be 5+. Meaning 18 Boltgun hits will cause ~6 wounds rather than ~9 wounds.
JoeRugby wrote: Not feeling it (the t5 boys) seems too much, I wouldn't say they as tough as death guard In the lore as tough as a marine out of armour sure. But 5 is too much.
What would you rather have had it as? T4 W2?
For me I think the suspension of disbelief is more about the invulnerable save and how much skin is showing. Scars or no scars, a lascannon should be lethal.
Nurglitch wrote: Hopefully Tyranids get the extra wounds at lower toughness if Orks get fewer wounds at higher toughness as their codex-buff.
I am hoping the Tyranid big creatures get lots of Wounds and for options to regenerate/heal them, for that feel of alien horror at the creature not only surviving what "should" have killed it but healing in front of its enemies.
Nurglitch wrote: Hopefully Tyranids get the extra wounds at lower toughness if Orks get fewer wounds at higher toughness as their codex-buff.
I am hoping the Tyranid big creatures get lots of Wounds and for options to regenerate/heal them, for that feel of alien horror at the creature not only surviving what "should" have killed it but healing in front of its enemies.
I think I’d prefer regen to wound avoidance. Force the enemy to focus their fire.
Nurglitch wrote: Hopefully Tyranids get the extra wounds at lower toughness if Orks get fewer wounds at higher toughness as their codex-buff.
I am hoping the Tyranid big creatures get lots of Wounds and for options to regenerate/heal them, for that feel of alien horror at the creature not only surviving what "should" have killed it but healing in front of its enemies.
I think I’d prefer regen to wound avoidance. Force the enemy to focus their fire.
There is the reliability aspect. There is 0% of a single 1 Damage weapon dropping your 2+ Wound model, whereas there is a non-zero probability of it if your model has only 1 Wound.
JoeRugby wrote: Not feeling it (the t5 boys) seems too much, I wouldn't say they as tough as death guard In the lore as tough as a marine out of armour sure. But 5 is too much.
What would you rather have had it as? T4 W2?
For me I think the suspension of disbelief is more about the invulnerable save and how much skin is showing. Scars or no scars, a lascannon should be lethal.
Na for basic boys stay t4 1w
You would need significant points drop then to help them out. Currently wiping units each turn is snap of a finger
Nurglitch wrote: Hopefully Tyranids get the extra wounds at lower toughness if Orks get fewer wounds at higher toughness as their codex-buff.
More diverse defensive profiles like this can only be a good thing for the overall meta. Anyone focusing heavily on high-damage weapons to kill Tyranids is gonna get shut down hard by T5 W1 Orks. The opposite will be true for anyone with too many points sunk into high ROF and/or high-strength D1 weapons.
Having multiple "defensive profiles" spread across factions is a good thing for the meta in my opinion.
Currently, a lot of armies are either taking "anti-SM" weapons or "anti-Drukhari" weapons and they both have quite opposite defensive profiles.
Adding a new "intermediate" profile (bad save, 1W, but high base Toughness) further makes some weapons more interesting (such as ... the Tesla Carbine !).
The +1 to hit seems odd to me. I was expecting the snaggas to get +1 to wound against big stuff, it seems far more thematic and useful.
I dread the point costs, though. Don't want to see another increase on boys or snaggas to reach double digits, and wih all these changes, I'm not sure they won't.
the beast snaggas are cool and all but after seeing the AoS dominion orcs... can we get some of those?! Also making some models cheaper never hurt anyone =3
Oh boy, orkz are orkstodes now. What would win, the handcrafted creation of most powerful being in setting with millennia of experience (or 10000 year old DG terminator lord buffed to highest levels by Nurgle) or two week old mentally challenged fungus? The answer might shock you
Anyway, if Harlies and DE are any indication, let's welcome third completely broken xeno army beating SM by default, especially after CA point nerfs to last crutches SM used to stay competitive (cue people without a clue still claiming SM are the most OP faction ever)
cerealkiller195 wrote: the beast snaggas are cool and all but after seeing the AoS dominion orcs... can we get some of those?! Also making some models cheaper never hurt anyone =3
Boyz will stay 8. Snaggas will be 10. That's my guess.
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Irbis wrote: Oh boy, orkz are orkstodes now. What would win, the handcrafted creation of most powerful being in setting with millennia of experience (or 10000 year old DG terminator lord buffed to highest levels by Nurgle) or two week old mentally challenged fungus? The answer might shock you
Anyway, if Harlies and DE are any indication, let's welcome third completely broken xeno army beating SM by default, especially after CA point nerfs to last crutches SM used to stay competitive (cue people without a clue still claiming SM are the most OP faction ever)
T5 could suit some units like Meganobz (or even all Nobz-based profiles, like Weirdboyz) but seems too much for regular Boyz. A FNP roll would have been more aki to the lore of orks ignoring wounds not because they are not physically damaged, but just because... they feel almost no pain.
I feel like T5 is a very handy change for a horde army. Orks needed something, FNP or +1wound would have been fiddly, 6++ wouldn't be useful really (and hey, some of them got that, too ).
"orkstodes", really? Forgive me but I must have overlooked the 3 wounds or the 2+ save...
With all the firepower and abundance of AP Orks will rarely use their saves, at least give them something.
Seems arbitrary and cash grab for shiny new models.
Apart from the fact that all Orks will get the T increase, as shown and written on the community article. You don't have to buy a single new model. But keep on hatin'
Ah, my DG feel less special now. :(
Anyway, will be interesting to see what T5 horde looks and plays like on the table. At least it will be something different to the "T3 but with a decent save" that was becoming the norm.
I like how Beast Snaggaz have lots of bionics and are used to hunting big beasts... so naturally they're excellent at anti-tank operations.
Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe the skills are transferable, and the ability to wrangle big Squigs is exactly the same as pinpointing the weaknesses on Land Raiders and Falcon Grav Tanks.
Seems arbitrary and cash grab for shiny new models.
T is not reflected as much in the armour.....that would be an "armour" save.
T5 is weird, and a FNP would make more sense, but again.....to save time in a game, I'm OK with it.
I do agree that improving them vs bolters while still being hurt the same by lasguns is a weird choice.
JoeRugby wrote: Not feeling it (the t5 boys) seems too much, I wouldn't say they as tough as death guard In the lore as tough as a marine out of armour sure. But 5 is too much.
What would you rather have had it as? T4 W2?
For me I think the suspension of disbelief is more about the invulnerable save and how much skin is showing. Scars or no scars, a lascannon should be lethal.
There are actually multiple fluff pieces (and IIRC even a picture in a codex somewhere?) showing how an ork missing half his torso and an arm from a lascannon shot managed to stumble back to the doc and get fixed up again.
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Irbis wrote: Oh boy, orkz are orkstodes now. What would win, the handcrafted creation of most powerful being in setting with millennia of experience (or 10000 year old DG terminator lord buffed to highest levels by Nurgle) or two week old mentally challenged fungus? The answer might shock you
I wouldn't call a custodes a mentally challenged fungus, but they really don't get out a lot. But yeah, orks were the absolute masterpiece of the old ones, unlike the other creation which fethed up so hard they gave birth to a chaos god.
Irbis wrote: Oh boy, orkz are orkstodes now. What would win, the handcrafted creation of most powerful being in setting with millennia of experience (or 10000 year old DG terminator lord buffed to highest levels by Nurgle) or two week old mentally challenged fungus? The answer might shock you
Anyway, if Harlies and DE are any indication, let's welcome third completely broken xeno army beating SM by default, especially after CA point nerfs to last crutches SM used to stay competitive (cue people without a clue still claiming SM are the most OP faction ever)
This is a pretty funny post. But in case you're anything close to serious, Orks are the bioengineered warrior race of the Old Ones. Big E's got nothing on that!
T5 orks is an interesting sign that the numbers will just creep for 40K. But maybe it's good to creep in different ways for different factions?
Irbis wrote: Oh boy, orkz are orkstodes now. What would win, the handcrafted creation of most powerful being in setting with millennia of experience (or 10000 year old DG terminator lord buffed to highest levels by Nurgle) or two week old mentally challenged fungus? The answer might shock you
Except that, Orks are the creation of the beings that literally engineered several of the predominant species in 40k. Orks? Check. Eldar? Check again. Humans and Tyranids? Those are maybes. I think the Old Ones might have a little bit more skill in the whole "engineering living super weapons" thing than the Corpse Emperor. At least they could control theirs while they were around.
Those of us who are really old will remember that Orks had a higher Toughness than Space Marines back in the Rogue Trader era.
And before anyone asks, no that didn't change when SM fluff evolved to make them genetically engineered supersoldiers rather than brainwashed criminals. SM didn't get to be as tough as Orks until 2nd edition.
Duskweaver wrote: Those of us who are really old will remember that Orks had a higher Toughness than Space Marines back in the Rogue Trader era.
And before anyone asks, no that didn't change when SM fluff evolved to make them genetically engineered supersoldiers rather than brainwashed criminals. SM didn't get to be as tough as Orks until 2nd edition.
Oooh, not quite! I think it was the Compendium upped them to T4 originally. Would need to check me books, but it defo happened in 1st.
Orks seem to be doing alright at the moment in terms of stat boosts. S4 was much needed. Just looking at the models, they didn’t suggest being the same rough strength as a weedy ‘Oomie. And the T5, from this thread, seems fairly well received.
Proof will be in the pudding of course. It could be that Marines getting an extra wound, and everyone seemingly getting more shots it’ll average out against da ladz. But that isn’t for me to judge.
Not the first to say it, but I am really liking that they are finally starting to change up the defence style of armies.
Before it was a case that high rate of fire weapons always was best.
Now we should have armies with lots of 1w high T models and low save, armies with lots of 2 wound models and high saves, armies with high T and damage reduction, armies with low toughness and inv saves etc etc.
This has been long overdue coming in my opinion to make it so that armies can't just spam certain weapons for all comers.
I am all for it! I like some diversity in basic profiles between the races and factions. It means that to take an all comers army, you need weapon diversity as well.
Spam too many S4 weapons, then you face an Orc or DG army and all your S4 weapons wound on 5+. Spam High AP weapon to handle power armor and terminators, and these are suddenly worthless against Orcs which have paper armour or a 6+ save anyway. And all the damage 2 weapons which are so good against primaris and space marines are now wasted against Orcs and Eldar.
Some weapons, like those Tesla destructor of Necrons suddenly become a lot more interesting because they have a high number of str 6 shots with zero AP, perfect against T5 orcs with paper thin armor anyway.
Space Marines are still durable because they are 2W compared to the Orc's 1W. Its just represented in a different way! Like maybe Orcs have bigger muscles and tough skin, so they are T5, while space marines have 2 hearts, so they have 2W.
I wouldn't worry too much about any army that doesn't have a codex. Each new book has been pretty dang good. I am sure Tyranids players will be happy.(or at least as happy as the average dakka patron gets)
Tyran wrote: Orks are not getting cheaper, not with T5 upgrade.
Why not? Immortals have T5 and are brought down to being only 4 points more than Warriors in the new points update.
Both stayed the same, Immortals are simply no longer overcharged for the tesla gun (which got nerfed while blasters got better).
And the point difference between the two necron units is kind of the point
Ork boyz are getting -1 AP in melee, and +1 T. GW could easily decide that both of those are worth a point over the current 8 point T4 boy. (And beast snaggas +1 point each for the strength and special rule). 10 point orks and 12 point beastsnaggas would be pretty bad, even with the improvements, but I can easily see GW getting there just using the simple logic of 'better has to cost more' and applying it in a vacuum. Consider how many iterations it took for them to get Primaris to the point they were even usable, let alone good, and that was with the 'marine bias.'
Tyran wrote: Orks are not getting cheaper, not with T5 upgrade.
Why not? Immortals have T5 and are brought down to being only 4 points more than Warriors in the new points update.
Both stayed the same, Immortals are simply no longer overcharged for the tesla gun (which got nerfed while blasters got better).
And the point difference between the two necron units is kind of the point Ork boyz are getting -1 AP in melee, and +1 T. GW could easily decide that both of those are worth a point over the current 8 point T4 boy. (And beast snaggas +1 point each for the strength and special rule). 10 point orks and 12 point beastsnaggas would be pretty bad, even with the improvements, but I can easily see GW getting there just using the simple logic of 'better has to cost more' and applying it in a vacuum. Consider how many iterations it took for them to get Primaris to the point they were even usable, let alone good, and that was with the 'marine bias.'
To be fair, boyz aren't really worth their point unless right now unless you buff them with a stratagem (that is likely to disappear) and a 300 point character. 8 point boyz most likely were a measure to get the green tide out of tournaments, not because boyz are actually worth 8 points.
With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Jidmah wrote: With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Before 9th I would have said they're fine at 8. Now with everyone getting layered it only makes sense for them to stay the same cost and get buffed. Trukk Boyz become more interesting, too.
The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Except that ALL ork boyz seem to now have T5, including the generic "Ork Boyz" that form the backbone of most ork armies. This seems like it will also include burna boyz, Stormboyz, Kommandos, etc etc.
The only thing making Snagga Boyz slightly better is the 6+ invulnerable save, Str5, and their +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters(these bonuses will also make them cost more per model).
Let's stop trying to make this into a "Evil Geedubs is forcing people to buy the new minis!" thing.
Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
To be fair, boyz aren't really worth their point unless right now unless you buff them with a stratagem (that is likely to disappear) and a 300 point character.
8 point boyz most likely were a measure to get the green tide out of tournaments, not because boyz are actually worth 8 points.
With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Oh I agree. I just don't have faith that GW's assessment will be that they're not currently worth 8. Just that they currently are 8, and are getting buffs, so by GW logic, they need to cost more.
If GW understood they weren't worth 8, they would have gone down in February's point update.
Given that GW increased the defense of Necrons and Drukhari without increasing their points, I'd say you are being overly pessimistic.
I must say giving Orks T5 and Grots T3 will help them grow into their current points value. The question is will they do anything to make Shoota Boyz better so that they are not worse than Slugga Boyz with the new improved Choppa?
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Ah, yes, just like how primaris were so badly costed in the first three years of 8th (Reivers and primaris tanks being bad still to this day) the squats were far more efficient even with worse statline? And when GW finally managed to make primaris okay idiotic W2 buff that broke the game made them look bad again? Because if that is supposed to be example of evul GW sales plan, it's kinda gakky one
JoeRugby wrote: Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
The was feels fluffier for me
So, 200 points of SM can barely kill 35 pts of orks even with 2 layers of buffs applied? Yup, sure sounds "fluffy" and "balanced"
Voss wrote: The +1 to hit seems odd to me. I was expecting the snaggas to get +1 to wound against big stuff, it seems far more thematic and useful.
+1 to wound on 20 boyz with 60 attacks sounds a bit too powerful to me.
Yeh. +1 to wound is generally more powerful ability than +1 to wound(full reroll to wounds is in similar way bigger than full reroll to hits). +1 to wound would be sick powerful ability. And would make balancing points nightmare. Super good ability vs vehicles/monsters so need to pay points but if you don't face...you are back to W1 no save guys...
Better less extreme rule, especially conditional ones, tyvm.
Which funny enough makes them tougher vs bolters than orks, tougher vs autocannons.
And of course they are still without codex. At least last time I checked tyranids haven't yet got 9e codex. It's pointless to compare 9e codexes to 8e codexes since GW decided to up the power scale to 11th with new codexes. Just be happy your book is later. Power creep ensures tyranids will stomp orks when they come up.
I think T5 for Orks make a lot of sense actually.
A FnP roll for a horde army would be very cumbersome to deal with - it would be a lot of extra dice rolls every turn, just fishing for sixes.
It also makes Orks behave differently on the tabletop - relying on toughness and weight of numbers, instead of fancy armor saves or multiple wounds with FnP.
The irony is, the Ork is tougher than the average piece of armour he wears! It's a surprisingly good fix and I like the possible design space for duability.
Space marines - Good armour and 2 wounds
DG - T5, armour and wounds
Custodes - SUPER armour and wounds but eye watering price (and invun!)
Ork - Good T
Necron - Decent armour, good T and stand back up again!
I would like my tyranids to have their durability design space around higher wound counts, and maybe lean more into a regeneration factor.
The irony is, the Ork is tougher than the average piece of armour he wears! It's a surprisingly good fix and I like the possible design space for duability.
Space marines - Good armour and 2 wounds
DG - T5, armour and wounds
Custodes - SUPER armour and wounds but eye watering price (and invun!)
Ork - Good T
Necron - Decent armour, good T and stand back up again!
I would like my tyranids to have their durability design space around higher wound counts, and maybe lean more into a regeneration factor.
*imagines a world of T2 W5 ‘gaunts* “gotta blow off all the limbs, see…”
That’s hilarious.
Gimgamgoo wrote: The "Primaris'ing" of orks?
Make the new troops slightly better so folks with hordes of the old ones now need to buy the new better, shiny, bigger troops?
Ah, yes, just like how primaris were so badly costed in the first three years of 8th (Reivers and primaris tanks being bad still to this day) the squats were far more efficient even with worse statline? And when GW finally managed to make primaris okay idiotic W2 buff that broke the game made them look bad again? Because if that is supposed to be example of evul GW sales plan, it's kinda gakky one
JoeRugby wrote: Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
The was feels fluffier for me
So, 200 points of SM can barely kill 35 pts of orks even with 2 layers of buffs applied? Yup, sure sounds "fluffy" and "balanced"
It's pointless to compare 9e codexes to 8e codexes since GW decided to up the power scale to 11th with new codexes.
This is a poor game design.
Ok, then go and lets tell Craftworlds, Daemons, Tyranids, GSC, Tau, IK, Chaos IK, Chaos SM, Guard...players that they should stop playing or at least stop their desires to win, because it does not make sense to play until you get your new codex. That is insane.
I have Space Marines and Tyranids. For the Space Marines I already feel quite bad with this HUGE power creep, but man, the armies without codexes like Tyranids...what a bad spot. I've read some post this morning that defines my current feeling:
"I have worries that if they get too aggressive with it(the power creep), we will see veteran players who had re-entered the hobby in 8th grow weary and leave again, concluding that GW are up to the same old tricks."
This is probabbly the feeling my current gaming scene(competitive gaming wise). People that got back in 8th are loosing the interest in the game, because every new codex breaks the game and the meta. It does not matter what you prepare/learn, the next codex will invalidate your previous trainning. This situation is exhausting for players.
Also, people that are ok with T5 Orks priced 8-10 ppm (2A WS 3+, with the AP -1 choppa) are not seeing the big picture. The current 9th armies (not talking about the poor 8th codexes) are not prepared to deal with 120 Boys with T5, they will just take the table, play the mission and then by the time you can play and do something, is turn 4, you lost the game.
This whole post looks like a cry , but this is worrysome for the status of the game.
I'm only still in 40k for Crusade but stuff like this really does dampen my already limited enthusiasm. My suspension of disbelief is already stretched to the limit when S5/T5 unarmored ork infantry walk up to my S4/T4 Tyranid Warriors.
That they still only have 1 wound only makes it worse. It has never been that orks are hugely difficult to damage in the fluff, it is that they can suffer so much of it before they actually go down with missing flesh/limbs/organs not stopping them. That is obviously a high wounds count, toughness doesn't make sense. That in turn makes it apparent that orks were given T5 instead of W2 because they didn't want them to be similar to marines. Except with BS5+ and armor 6+ they were never going to be in the first place.
It isn't a good change mechanically or thematically. It just makes the game less fun for me.
Oh no something different has happened and this is bad. A crime has been committed by the developers of the game. Those little fethers. Can't do a thing right. What fools they are.
Olthannon wrote: Oh no something different has happened and this is bad. A crime has been committed by the developers of the game. Those little fethers. Can't do a thing right. What fools they are.
Yeah people totally get upset about every change and dislike everything GW does because change is bad and no one has ever expressed positive feelings about a change ever.
Ok, then go and lets tell Craftworlds, Daemons, Tyranids, GSC, Tau, IK, Chaos IK, Chaos SM, Guard...players that they should stop playing or at least stop their desires to win, because it does not make sense to play until you get your new codex. That is insane.
Tournaments wise? Absolutely. But tournament players chase the flavour of the month anyway. In casual metas, or games against friends, anyone who own an old codex should get a fair game, if not you're probably playing in an overly toxic environment, which IMHO isn't fun to be in it anyway.
I have Space Marines and Tyranids. For the Space Marines I already feel quite bad with this HUGE power creep, but man, the armies without codexes like Tyranids...what a bad spot. I've read some post this morning that defines my current feeling:
SM codex is powerful enough to deal with anything, including drukhari. Just learn how to counter them, adjust your lists and make some experience. Maybe you won't get a 50/50 ratio, but out of 10 games you could win 3 or 4 at least, which isn't bad. I used to play with orks against SM, tau and eldar in 7th despite the odds.
"I have worries that if they get too aggressive with it(the power creep), we will see veteran players who had re-entered the hobby in 8th grow weary and leave again, concluding that GW are up to the same old tricks."
This is probabbly the feeling my current gaming scene(competitive gaming wise). People that got back in 8th are loosing the interest in the game, because every new codex breaks the game and the meta. It does not matter what you prepare/learn, the next codex will invalidate your previous trainning. This situation is exhausting for players.
Also, people that are ok with T5 Orks priced 8-10 ppm (2A WS 3+, with the AP -1 choppa) are not seeing the big picture. The current 9th armies (not talking about the poor 8th codexes) are not prepared to deal with 120 Boys with T5, they will just take the table, play the mission and then by the time you can play and do something, is turn 4, you lost the game.
This whole post looks like a cry , but this is worrysome for the status of the game.
This is some kind of mentality that I can't stand. It implies that people build a single list which is powerful and last forever, while meta needs to be shifted. People should never play with ther entire collections, rather with 30% to 50% in order to make significant changes and be ok pretty much everytime. Also skewed lists should be avoided.
Yes, this means that the majority of players could never be able to play the most optimized OP lists of the moment, but that's the entire point of casual/friendly games.
Current 9th edition armies can definitely deal with 120 boyz with T5, they just need to refine their lists. SM have tons and tons of S4,5,6 weapons, all with some AP, with high rate of fire or tons of attacks in combat: take more of them and less plasma/melta. Of course armies can't deal with 120 T5 boyz AND elite oriented armies at the same time and still be competitive, and they shouldn't. It's called making TACs lists: lists that won't be wonferful against anything but they also won't be terrible against anything.
And don't overestimate AP-1 on troops, since no more than 10-15 will actually be in range to fight. Blood Claws have 4A each at S4 AP-1 (Ap-2 from turn 3) hittin on 2s pretty much everytime, and nobody says they're OP.
I think the issue with the 9th ed vs 8th ed Codices thing is that there's literally no solution which would have kept everyone happy.
• Change nothing: people who felt their army needed a boost/adjustment to better represent the fluff in-game get mad.
• Do Index books at the start of the edition again: people get mad their 8th ed Codex has been invalidated.
• Update/tweak profiles as the books are released: people who play factions further back in the queue get mad that they're left lagging behind.
I agree it all feels a bit janky and lopsided at the moment, but in fairness I think the extent of that's been exacerbated by circumstances largely beyond GW's control.
I also think not giving a stopgap update to the really egregious stuff (e.g. some Marines not getting 2W yet) is ridiculous – why not do something like when Chapter Approved gave some little boosts to the 8th ed armies still playing with Indices?
However, it looks an awful lot like GW are ramping up the speed of releases again now the disruption's dying down, so hopefully everyone will have new books sooner rather than later.
People aren't expecting to build a single list and have it remain powerful forever, they are just asking that they build a single list then have it remain at least viable for at least an edition. Instead they are being told 'you just have to adapt with a few hundred dollars of additional miniatures plus all the labor it will take to get them looking nice, and they may not even be miniatures you like, but the option is available so it's your fault if the army you do want to run totally sucks now.'
Obviously a bit hyperbolic on my part (mostly...) but the sentiment is there.
Olthannon wrote: Oh no something different has happened and this is bad. A crime has been committed by the developers of the game. Those little fethers. Can't do a thing right. What fools they are.
Who are you replying to, other than that scarecrow over there?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm only still in 40k for Crusade but stuff like this really does dampen my already limited enthusiasm. My suspension of disbelief is already stretched to the limit when S5/T5 unarmored ork infantry walk up to my S4/T4 Tyranid Warriors.
That they still only have 1 wound only makes it worse. It has never been that orks are hugely difficult to damage in the fluff, it is that they can suffer so much of it before they actually go down with missing flesh/limbs/organs not stopping them. That is obviously a high wounds count, toughness doesn't make sense. That in turn makes it apparent that orks were given T5 instead of W2 because they didn't want them to be similar to marines. Except with BS5+ and armor 6+ they were never going to be in the first place.
It isn't a good change mechanically or thematically. It just makes the game less fun for me.
Wound count is determined by size for GW. Look at the ork boy. Is that equal in size to tyranid warriors?
And good to know you already know what tyranid warriors are going to be in new codex. Care to share more spoilers?
NinthMusketeer wrote: People aren't expecting to build a single list and have it remain powerful forever, they are just asking that they build a single list then have it remain at least viable for at least an edition. Instead they are being told 'you just have to adapt with a few hundred dollars of additional miniatures plus all the labor it will take to get them looking nice, and they may not even be miniatures you like, but the option is available so it's your fault if the army you do want to run totally sucks now.'
Obviously a bit hyperbolic on my part (mostly...) but the sentiment is there.
Play smaller formats, like 1000-1250-1500 ones. This way a 2000ish points collection will likely be enough to play decently for an entire edition.
It took me something like 5 years to complete a 2000ish points army, this is a combination of a game and a hobby. I was a child and I'll definitely complete an army that size way faster now but I think that an entire edition is a really small window to complete an army and play with it for long. People that demand EVERYTHING NOW!!! are annoying.
Ok, then go and lets tell Craftworlds, Daemons, Tyranids, GSC, Tau, IK, Chaos IK, Chaos SM, Guard...players that they should stop playing or at least stop their desires to win, because it does not make sense to play until you get your new codex. That is insane.
So GW shouldn't change anything ever whatsoever unless they update every codex at once...
Tyranids get their 9e codex later. That's life in GW games. So admit you want zero new codexes ever again. Or at most new codex with just new codex. Because if they change then other codexes are obviously going to feel like you now and feel unfair because they werent' changed simultaneously.
Marines would be W1 A1 forever etc. Ork boyz S4/T4 no stat changes forever. Tyranid warriors locked S4 T4 W3 forever. No weapon changes whatsoever unless GW changes everything at once.
So. We now know you don't want ever any codexes. GW should have stopped codex changes and no 9e codexes now. Good to know your stance.
Ok, then go and lets tell Craftworlds, Daemons, Tyranids, GSC, Tau, IK, Chaos IK, Chaos SM, Guard...players that they should stop playing or at least stop their desires to win, because it does not make sense to play until you get your new codex. That is insane.
Tournaments wise? Absolutely. But tournament players chase the flavour of the month anyway. In casual metas, or games against friends, anyone who own an old codex should get a fair game, if not you're probably playing in an overly toxic environment, which IMHO isn't fun to be in it anyway.
I like playing casual games with friends, but mostly competitive games and going to torunaments and the community around it. That does not implies I am a meta chaser or switch armies every month, so not valid point.
Well, I do not buy your assumption of "overly toxic environment", even when it is friendly, you want to create a good list and play a "fair game" against any army, and even with some of the worst units options, some codex are way ahead on performance from the 8th edition codexes, due to under costed point values or just better unit stats.
I have Space Marines and Tyranids. For the Space Marines I already feel quite bad with this HUGE power creep, but man, the armies without codexes like Tyranids...what a bad spot. I've read some post this morning that defines my current feeling:
SM codex is powerful enough to deal with anything, including drukhari. Just learn how to counter them, adjust your lists and make some experience. Maybe you won't get a 50/50 ratio, but out of 10 games you could win 3 or 4 at least, which isn't bad. I used to play with orks against SM, tau and eldar in 7th despite the odds.
I said feel bad for SM not because they do not have options, but because they are falling behind in the power creep meta (let's not talk about Necrons...).
"I have worries that if they get too aggressive with it(the power creep), we will see veteran players who had re-entered the hobby in 8th grow weary and leave again, concluding that GW are up to the same old tricks."
This is probabbly the feeling my current gaming scene(competitive gaming wise). People that got back in 8th are loosing the interest in the game, because every new codex breaks the game and the meta. It does not matter what you prepare/learn, the next codex will invalidate your previous trainning. This situation is exhausting for players.
Also, people that are ok with T5 Orks priced 8-10 ppm (2A WS 3+, with the AP -1 choppa) are not seeing the big picture. The current 9th armies (not talking about the poor 8th codexes) are not prepared to deal with 120 Boys with T5, they will just take the table, play the mission and then by the time you can play and do something, is turn 4, you lost the game.
This whole post looks like a cry , but this is worrysome for the status of the game.
This is some kind of mentality that I can't stand. It implies that people build a single list which is powerful and last forever, while meta needs to be shifted. People should never play with ther entire collections, rather with 30% to 50% in order to make significant changes and be ok pretty much everytime. Also skewed lists should be avoided.
Yes, this means that the majority of players could never be able to play the most optimized OP lists of the moment, but that's the entire point of casual/friendly games.
Current 9th edition armies can definitely deal with 120 boyz with T5, they just need to refine their lists. SM have tons and tons of S4,5,6 weapons, all with some AP, with high rate of fire or tons of attacks in combat: take more of them and less plasma/melta. Of course armies can't deal with 120 T5 boyz AND elite oriented armies at the same time and still be competitive, and they shouldn't. It's called making TACs lists: lists that won't be wonferful against anything but they also won't be terrible against anything.
And don't overestimate AP-1 on troops, since no more than 10-15 will actually be in range to fight. Blood Claws have 4A each at S4 AP-1 hittin on 2s pretty much everytime, and nobody says they're OP.
I think you got it wrong here. Personally I am totally fine with meta adjustments for the game and a living game. What I am not ok with is that people with different armies desing flexible lists and then they have to throw it to the trash because one codex broke the meta. Then people adjust to the new meta and then two weeks/one month later another codex breaks the game again. IT is ok to have to change some things from a list, but not entirely.
I can assure you that if they had represented Ork resilience using a mechanic that actually fits thematically (ie. a Feel No Pain save) it would be a lot less fun as you sit there watching endless save rolls.
Jidmah wrote: With +1T and ap on choppas though? Totally worth 8 points.
Before 9th I would have said they're fine at 8. Now with everyone getting layered it only makes sense for them to stay the same cost and get buffed. Trukk Boyz become more interesting, too.
You mean trukk beast snagga boyz
Too bad that this picture seems to imply that their nob doesn't a propper powerklaw, but the same thing Zodgrod is holding. A "true" PK would have been great with +1 to hit vs big stuff.
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Mr_Rose wrote: *imagines a world of T2 W5 ‘gaunts* “gotta blow off all the limbs, see…”
That’s hilarious.
Maybe not gaunts, but 4W warriors, raveners or zoantropes? I could totally see that.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: People aren't expecting to build a single list and have it remain powerful forever, they are just asking that they build a single list then have it remain at least viable for at least an edition. Instead they are being told 'you just have to adapt with a few hundred dollars of additional miniatures plus all the labor it will take to get them looking nice, and they may not even be miniatures you like, but the option is available so it's your fault if the army you do want to run totally sucks now.'
Obviously a bit hyperbolic on my part (mostly...) but the sentiment is there.
You completely missed his point. You don't need to upgrade your army to handle this problem unless you want to do it in the best possible way, for example because you want to win tournaments.
120 could easily be blown off the table even by casual lists before, and unless all your shooting was S4, your army can most likely still kill enough orks to win, you just won't table them anymore.
And yes, top competitive meta is expensive and time consuming as hell. In other news, the sky is blue, orks are green and water is wet.
I think you got it wrong here. Personally I am totally fine with meta adjustments for the game and a living game. What I am not ok with is that people with different armies desing flexible lists and then they have to throw it to the trash because one codex broke the meta. Then people adjust to the new meta and then two weeks/one month later another codex breaks the game again. IT is ok to have to change some things from a list, but not entirely.
But that's true only if you're actually chasing the flavour of the month. SM for example can deal with an horde oriented list just bringing basic stuff. If a SM collection only has anti tank/elite dudes, that's a skew oriented army and not a TAC one and it deserves to be left behind. An average SM collection made out of starters should be reasonably competitive in any casual/friendly meta for example.
As Jidmah said top competitive meta is expensive and time consuming as hell, and IMHO it's a very good thing as most of the players won't be able to field the most powerful combos of the moment, which most of the times aren't even intended by game designers. Let's leave the loyal32+smash captains+castellan knights, 5 stormravens, 30+ ynnari dark reapers, 12-18 smasha gunz, 30+ DT wracks etc... to a very selected environment, with little chances to see one of those powerful combos (from the past and the present) in real life. No new codex will break the meta then. Playing with lists that are and never will be asbolute top tiers but just need minor changes when a new codex drop is actually the best way of playing 40k outside tournaments, and I don't think it's actually something really unusual.
Anyway I haven't seen anything OP in the new ork codex yet. T5 orks means that I can finally play with greenskins units without spamming them. At the moment it's either 90 boyz plus specialists or nothing but a few super cheap specialists, as currently it's easy to wipe 30-40 boyz per turn with TAC lists, even if they are under the 5++ bubble. I'd like to field 10-20-40-50 orks plus vehicles instead, not the 100+ horde and no vehicles archetype or nothing but light and heavy vehicles.
Plenty of more infoto come on the Orks, so I wouldn't freak out yet. Like what we are seeing with AdMech, Sisters, etc, there will be many, many changes. Some up, some down, some a little of both.
Change is the other constant in 40k. Compare current Primaris marines to Rogue Trader beakies. Think back to 2nd edition armies who laid down enough pie plates to feed a company picnic.
Fluff wise, this can be easily justified, just got done reading the Beast Arises books, and people should be happy they aren't putting in new models of ork bosses the size of morkanaughts with bodyguards the size of dreadnaughts.
NinthMusketeer wrote: People aren't expecting to build a single list and have it remain powerful forever, they are just asking that they build a single list then have it remain at least viable for at least an edition. Instead they are being told 'you just have to adapt with a few hundred dollars of additional miniatures plus all the labor it will take to get them looking nice, and they may not even be miniatures you like, but the option is available so it's your fault if the army you do want to run totally sucks now.'
Obviously a bit hyperbolic on my part (mostly...) but the sentiment is there.
I don't know about you, but I definitely have enough orks in my collection that I can build multiple army lists, especially when I feel like trying something different in the next game. I don't know anyone who builds a single 2,000 point list and then uses that list for every single game for the entire length of an edition.
Anyway I haven't seen anything OP in the new ork codex yet. T5 orks means that I can finally play with greenskins units without spamming them. At the moment it's either 90 boyz plus specialists or nothing but a few super cheap specialists, as currently it's easy to wipe 30-40 boyz per turn with TAC lists, even if they are under the 5++ bubble. I'd like to field 10-20-40-50 orks plus vehicles instead, not the 100+ horde and no vehicles archetype or nothing but light and heavy vehicles.
This, so much. The ork codex has so much cool stuff in it, but it inevitably seems like orks are always reduced to "Green Tide is the only army build that wins anything". I'm hoping that T5 boyz will allow for a bigger variety of lists simply due to the way the higher toughness affects game mechanics.
JoeRugby wrote: Think I worked this out correctly let me know if I haven’t
How many boyz can 10 Space marines kill in one round with;
Assault bolt riffles Was 8.44 (10.05 tac doctrine)
Now 5.57 (6.33 tac doctrine) boyz 32% more survivable
Bolt rifles rapid fire Was 6.7
Now 4.42 boyz 34% more survivable
Bolters rapid fire Was 5.63 (6.7 tac d)
Now 3.71 (4.42 tac d) boyz 33% more survivable
The was feels fluffier for me
So, 200 points of SM can barely kill 35 pts of orks even with 2 layers of buffs applied? Yup, sure sounds "fluffy" and "balanced"
So, bolter fire against "fluffy and balanced" 18 point MEQ and 20 point intercessor:
Bolt rifle rapid fire
.66*.5*.5*2*10
3.3
Or 33 points worth of intercessors with 200 points of bolt rifle fire.
Personally, I think GW chose the right way to increase Ork survivability. High T value doesn't add any extra dice rolls into the equation, nor extra W bookkeeping for large units.
I'm just sad that there's so much bolterporn people can't believe that ork heads live off the body for a few hours, and that with their fungal soup type organs they can have a hole blown through em and be fine.
Weird take, the way to take orks down efficiently won't be S5, it would potentially be S3 fire. Notably, if they see any points increase, they actually see a reduction in efficiency against both poison and strength 3. They're still getting an increased resistance against S5 attacks, so that may be a trap.
The humble lasgun will now wound on 5's same as before. If they see a points increase, their survivability efficiency point for point against S3 will drop.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I'm just sad that there's so much bolterporn people can't believe that ork heads live off the body for a few hours, and that with their fungal soup type organs they can have a hole blown through em and be fine.
TedNugent wrote: Weird take, the way to take orks down efficiently won't be S5, it would potentially be S3 fire. Notably, if they see any points increase, they actually see a reduction in efficiency against both poison and strength 3. They're still getting an increased resistance against S5 attacks, so that may be a trap.
The humble lasgun will now wound on 5's same as before. If they see a points increase, their survivability efficiency point for point against S3 will drop.
To be fair, one of the humble lasgun's specifically called out qualities is to be able to cut off an ork's head or limb with a well aimed shot
TedNugent wrote: Weird take, the way to take orks down efficiently won't be S5, it would potentially be S3 fire. Notably, if they see any points increase, they actually see a reduction in efficiency against both poison and strength 3. They're still getting an increased resistance against S5 attacks, so that may be a trap.
The humble lasgun will now wound on 5's same as before. If they see a points increase, their survivability efficiency point for point against S3 will drop.
My intercessor's grenade launchers will certainly be getting a workout.
tauist wrote: Personally, I think GW chose the right way to increase Ork survivability. High T value doesn't add any extra dice rolls into the equation, nor extra W bookkeeping for large units.
I think people are getting too caught up on the lore matching the rules perfectly. 40k would be a completely unbalanced and unfun game if that was the case. A single custodian could easily solo an entire 2000 point ork army if we go by the lore, but is that really the kind of miniature game we want to be playing? Of course not. There should be plenty of parallels between lore and game mechanics, but it cannot and should not be 1-1.
T5 orks is really about using the design space opened up by the changes to S and T last edition. T5 is not what it used to be and it is I think helpful to keep perspective on that changed number. This is the other side of the coin as poor Tau pulse weapons loosing clout with the changes from 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T5 orks is really about using the design space opened up by the changes to S and T last edition. T5 is not what it used to be and it is I think helpful to keep perspective on that changed number. This is the other side of the coin as poor Tau pulse weapons loosing clout with the changes from 8th.
Also, those $$ heavy intercessors are looking even better!
Likely for beastsnaggas, unlikely for regular boyz.
It's also worth noting that without the green tide rule and the endless green tide stratagem people wouldn't be running mobs of 30 in the first place. In previous editions 20 boyz was the sweet spot between having enough orks to achieve something while not having a huge unwieldy unit that can't get all models in combat.
From a defensive point of view there is not a big difference whether an ork tide is running 4x30 or 6x20 boyz.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I'm just sad that there's so much bolterporn people can't believe that ork heads live off the body for a few hours, and that with their fungal soup type organs they can have a hole blown through em and be fine.
See that isn't toughness though--toughness would be taking the shot and it failing to cause significant damage. That's never been what orks do; they take damage quite readily but it takes an inhuman amount of it to bring them down. That's multiple wounds.
I can assure you that if they had represented Ork resilience using a mechanic that actually fits thematically (ie. a Feel No Pain save) it would be a lot less fun as you sit there watching endless save rolls.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm only still in 40k for Crusade but stuff like this really does dampen my already limited enthusiasm. My suspension of disbelief is already stretched to the limit when S5/T5 unarmored ork infantry walk up to my S4/T4 Tyranid Warriors.
That they still only have 1 wound only makes it worse. It has never been that orks are hugely difficult to damage in the fluff, it is that they can suffer so much of it before they actually go down with missing flesh/limbs/organs not stopping them. That is obviously a high wounds count, toughness doesn't make sense. That in turn makes it apparent that orks were given T5 instead of W2 because they didn't want them to be similar to marines. Except with BS5+ and armor 6+ they were never going to be in the first place.
It isn't a good change mechanically or thematically. It just makes the game less fun for me.
Wound count is determined by size for GW. Look at the ork boy. Is that equal in size to tyranid warriors?
And good to know you already know what tyranid warriors are going to be in new codex. Care to share more spoilers?
They aren't equal in size to a termagant either. Imagine being so disinterested in good faith discussion that one cannot be bothered to apply first grade math.
And good to know I can already play the new codex now, where can I get it?
Something that's pretty apparent from the discussions around this are that various people have their own ideas of what Toughness and Wounds represent, when they're both really just abstract variables that can represent resilience in different ways. Personally, I don't think there's any way one can argue that one or the other is *objectively* the wrong stat to be using.
Particularly when it comes to Wounds, the W characteristic has always had something of a flexible "meaning", ranging from "this is a big, resilient thing" or "this guy arbitrarily has more wounds so you don't lose your heroes etc too fast, in-game"